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徐副署長歡迎你"},{"start":2119.238,"end":2144.736,"text":"還有國發會的這個邱麗婷邱專門委員歡迎還有公平會的這個王一鳴王專門委員歡迎另外的核能會也有人來核能安全委員會的高斌高組長核能會還有另外的陳文淺陳組長好那文森你已經介紹過就不用了OK好那我們現在開始進行這個朝野協商因為我們本來是期待"},{"start":2146.021,"end":2164.79,"text":"在9月23號就要開始做專案了那老實講這個專案看起來應該是有需要因為現在不只是已經做了漲價這個決定那現在台電還開口要另外的1,000億的這個多補嘛我們是不是先請委員們先發表意見好不好讓勝翰先優先好不好好"},{"start":2171.652,"end":2197.744,"text":"這個那個先謝謝民眾黨跟旗開委員今天召集這個協商那當然今天這個協商是當這個是有院會交下的這這個協商那我想今天我們討論到的主題包括當就是當時剛剛就像旗開委員講到的民眾黨有提出說希望針對這個能源政策那也包括電價調整的機制"},{"start":2199.885,"end":2214.041,"text":"希望到這個院長希望到院會有一個專報嗎好那我第一個講幾幾個今天幾個事情第一個事情是確實就是確實就像剛剛說的其實原本是希望9月23號那可是這個9月23其實已經過了所以這個日期"},{"start":2218.065,"end":2233.241,"text":"在過了的狀況之下那我們要怎麼來討論這個議題那但從執政黨的角度我們也很清楚知道今天不只是在野黨也包括很多社會大眾也都希望在更加的了解我們的能源政策"},{"start":2234.102,"end":2249.531,"text":"跟電價機制的具體規劃這件事情我想對執政黨來說絕對不會去迴避跟逃避這件事情絕不絕不會迴避跟逃避好那我們也覺得有必要在這幾個主題上面或需要的話這幾個主題上面在院會有一個"},{"start":2250.271,"end":2270.781,"text":"讓大家多討論清楚或讓大家有更多的資訊的提供這事情我們也贊成但就像上次這個這個我們在上次的院長的召開的協商其實我們有討論到第一點第一點就是說我們只我們比較建議了因為就像剛剛說接下來台電還有一個一千億的追加減預算"},{"start":2272.462,"end":2293.719,"text":"這個台電一千億的追加減預算其實在這個報告裡面其實一定會談討論到第一個關於這個我們這個台電這做一個國營電力公司他收入啊他支出啊種種種的問題那台電的收入跟支出勢必就會跟當下的能源配比是有直接的非常非常直接的關聯的這個問題"},{"start":2296.101,"end":2309.637,"text":"所以這其實幾乎是一體兩面的事情就是說今天我們談的議題不管是電價機制或者是能源政策能源配比跟為什麼台電需要一千億追加減預算這幾乎是一體兩面的事情"},{"start":2310.618,"end":2338.849,"text":"好所以我們是建議說這個有沒有可能可以一起來處理我說一起來處理的話我們也想了方案其實過去我們看到有幾次喔就是之前的過去我們在行在院會裡面喔也有針對不管有可能是施政或預算報告其實用併同的方式我說併同方式就是說比方說讓院長來做一千億追加減的報告那併同"},{"start":2340.897,"end":2366.416,"text":"現在的這個主題能源政策及電價調整機制這是可以的做法因為過去就有這樣做沒有我說過去就有這樣做所以他的題目上面是直接就寫原本的主題並同後面這個就並同我們今天在開會的這個議題能源政策能源配比跟電價調整機制所以這等於就是有點像是打包來去處理"},{"start":2367.748,"end":2396.191,"text":"那這我們可以用這個方式去做第二個做法也是可以就是說就算你要把多一本報告針對這個主題今天今天齊凱委員召集的這個主題要多一本補充報告也可以好就是到時候院長在報告的時候有一個他原本的一千億的追加減預算的報告然後有一本補充報告是針對今天我們要召開的這個題目這也可以"},{"start":2398.29,"end":2399.995,"text":"但是就在同一天裡面去處理這個問題所以一樣都會談到這個議題"},{"start":2403.902,"end":2429.464,"text":"那這個報告完以後的詢答委員也一定都會問甚至我們也算計算了一下其實從9月到現在其實幾次的總諮詢下來我目前聽到好像也大概十幾個人次都跟院長其實已經問到了這個能源的議題然後那院長其實也是正面的回答所以我說這其實之前都問到但是這次要再報告然後大家要再討論要再要再"},{"start":2430.004,"end":2443.579,"text":"打訊這也都完全沒有問題這就沒什麼好去迴避這件事情的所以我剛才意思是說要不要用並同的方式這是過去有這樣子有這樣做的往例如果要多拆出一本補充報告"},{"start":2444.707,"end":2471.872,"text":"我們也覺得可以這是我要說的那再來一點我是想提因為大家都知道這禮拜五中午那個這個韓院長跟卓院長兩院院長就會找朝野一起來聚餐來討論接下來幾個我們在立法院非常非常重要的工作的事項怎麼樣安排跟怎麼樣衝突爭議化解的問題那裡面可能也包括中央政府總預算包括前瞻也包括了這個剛剛說的"},{"start":2474.893,"end":2493.086,"text":"台電的一千億追加減預算可能都會在這裡面大家一併的去做討論那尤其這也涉及到這些好幾個對這本會期最重要的工作接下來在總諮詢結束以後要怎麼安排的問題我自己也覺得就是說要不要因為"},{"start":2493.846,"end":2518.043,"text":"包括這也會牽涉到我們那一千億怎麼安排一千億追加減預算的報告專案報告怎麼安排的問題是不是也可以等到那時候來做一個總體性的討論所以我還是要說作為執政黨我們完全沒有要迴避這件事情該報告的該讓各個不同黨派的委員來問的絕對不會迴避只是在做法上面可能用並同的方式"},{"start":2519.383,"end":2534.382,"text":"也更有效率而且這幾個主題之間也是高度直接的關聯我剛才說幾乎是一體兩面的事情這個旗開會員這麼關注能源政策其實已經很知道為什麼要1000億當然就是因為你的支出"},{"start":2535.103,"end":2560.929,"text":"你的成本之間還有落差那成本怎麼算的當然是來自於能源政策跟能源配比這幾件事其實全部都是包裹在一起的同一件事情互為表裡的事情所以我覺得我們是覺得用這個方式其實比較完整也比較周全以上這大概是執政黨的看法謝謝我們等一下請國城委員那之前我先補充一下啦事實上生產委員提的就是因為我們本來在"},{"start":2562.199,"end":2589.729,"text":"提的這個案子是為了賴政府的這個能源配比跟電價政策那時候的原因主要是因為那時候準備要漲電價所以聽到的原因是要漲電價所以才有這個專案有這個專報我再重複一次那時候的背景台灣民眾黨為什麼提這個提這個案子是為了10月1號那時候傳出來說可能要漲電價所以我們要求賴政府要就能源配比跟電價的這個政策要說明說明後再決定要不要"},{"start":2590.569,"end":2617.268,"text":"要不要同意或者支持他漲電價還是要他不要漲那可是後來電價委員會又過來已經漲了這是一個那第二個現在紅色那洪委員提的是另外一個他是認為說沒有追加減沒有減應該是追加不是追加減那個減可以拿掉就是要追加要追加要追加一千億的撥補那現在有兩個方式一個就是剛剛洪委員建議就是說把這一千億要撥補這個事情放到"},{"start":2618.424,"end":2641.371,"text":"能源政策跟電價政策能源一起來一起來討論對不對等於是同時互為了嘛是不是我說把今天我們這個專題報告的主題放到這個一千億的追加減裡面兩個合在一起並同來做報告我說用一個並同的方式一起來做報告那也都會提到而且互相高度關聯"},{"start":2643.246,"end":2663.886,"text":"所以我說這比較完整跟周全這是民進黨團的看法聖誕跟民進黨團是認為說把它合在一起那現在我們就來討論說到底要不要合好不好林國成林委你看看你的意見一個是合一個剛剛聖誕也提到一個點就是說如果不合那就放到這一千億稅加一千億就放到禮拜五我們去討論在總計算那邊去討論也是一個方法對不對"},{"start":2668.72,"end":2685.535,"text":"主席還有我們各位委員各位官員我想今天主要還是談論能源政策當然因為台灣民眾黨提出主要的這些能源配備的這些問題"},{"start":2688.337,"end":2711.657,"text":"確確實實我常講過有時候你們自己提的東西都還要我們民意代表來提其實能源政策本來就是你們要講清楚的結果不管是常識也好不管董事長也好這本來你們就是要提但是今天有這個機會大家把它談清楚也好能源政策對跟錯"},{"start":2713.647,"end":2738.414,"text":"這個你們要去把它搞清楚尤其我們常識也好董事長也好這些第一個我比較疑問的我比較疑問的就是說到底我們能演現在到底對跟錯可是以我們的感覺我認為現在我們執政的執政黨能演政策是錯誤的"},{"start":2740.083,"end":2761.934,"text":"所以這個要不要納入你們未來要改進整個台電以及能源政策的部分要不要來參考我說實在的如果你依現在你們的做法你們不管是波普一簽也好依照也好我坦白跟你講都沒有辦法改變你們現在的體質啊"},{"start":2764.215,"end":2781.392,"text":"所以啊 台灣話講一句話就是國盟獨持 做到虧損連連 那更小啊當然 不是你曾董事長的問題這個是跟政策是連貫性所以啊 我們本黨會提出這個我們還是希望"},{"start":2782.401,"end":2807.116,"text":"台電跟我們能源政策連接起來是改變台電的這些體制這樣的話對於整個國家才會有幫助因為這個電是百分之百老百姓最需要的東西但是在這個部分有沒有必要大家來談論這個能源的政策錯與對"},{"start":2808.888,"end":2835.769,"text":"那我是覺得啦現在我還是要奉勸我們執政黨不要只有神主牌的政策啦這樣的話真的台電再找10個董事長來都無法改變這個體制那我也要奉勸我們台灣電力公司啦要有公司自主經營理念現在就是政策掛帥那就完蛋了我舉例"},{"start":2837.355,"end":2862.653,"text":"像我們現在台電虧損的問題都不是你們人的問題啊虧損的問題你能買貴賣給老百姓便宜每賣一度我們就虧多少這是做生意的ABC嘛所以這個要怎麼解決你們從來也沒有講出你們應該要怎麼解決那另外一個就是到底核電廠"},{"start":2863.934,"end":2884.835,"text":"可以不可以用要不要研議或確定不研議這個裡面要講清楚啊所以這個能源政策在這個部分才有辦法你們繼續再談下去其實生漢所講的這1,000億不管是追加也好不管是撥補也好其實這事小"},{"start":2886.737,"end":2891.501,"text":"這問題很大的就是說未來這一千一撥了以後還繼續撥嗎這個是最重要所以今天我們本黨提出這個是希望你們長治久安的永續經營的理念我看你們的"},{"start":2904.511,"end":2931.855,"text":"我看你們的那個公司的理念曾董事長你們都寫得很清楚啊我們台電是要永續經營的啊那永續經營從來沒有做改變就有辦法永續經營嗎唯一就只有一條路啊還是追加撥補追加撥補啊所以不能解決這些事所以我也希望等一下要說明第一個你能買貴賣低這個董事長要不要講清楚第二"},{"start":2932.455,"end":2953.925,"text":"核電廠要不要研議 研議有沒有幫助 什麼幫助或者在這個部分根本不需要用到這個 這個也要講清楚才有辦法去牽涉後面我們所需要的這個 站在民意代表的立場就是為老百姓嘛 我想三黨都是一樣"},{"start":2955.53,"end":2968.451,"text":"還是都是為老百姓．但是我們啟喜．台電永續經營．不要虧損連連這是我們擔心的那另外我說實在的啦人民真的不是盤子"},{"start":2970.643,"end":2994.413,"text":"你們在做什麼老百姓都知道可是老百姓最在乎的就我有沒有電我的用電貴不貴這些是老百姓所在乎的但是撥補的問題本來就是也是人民的納稅錢啊也是老百姓的納稅錢啊所以這些不管追加不管撥補這都是真的"},{"start":2996.024,"end":3024.426,"text":"作者追加作者撥補對台電救得了嗎這個我要了解的就是這些這個是撥補也好追加也好通通都是救急都是救急這我的認知是這樣那我特別要提醒我們經濟部跟我們鄭董事這個鄭董事長漲價是人民最不願意看到的一個事實"},{"start":3025.731,"end":3052.528,"text":"你們動不動就是漲價漲價你有長期規劃短期漲價中期的改變長期的完全改變這些種種你要讓老百姓說我這次漲價以後下次不會再講了沒有人4月份漲價10月份又漲價請問一下明年2月份過完年還要不要再漲價"},{"start":3053.989,"end":3079.982,"text":"這是很重要欸 欸 曾董事長你若做政無關 若做董事長 我也知道你心有餘力不足啊想要做 但是你有卡政策的卡在你身上這一點我完全是體會 但是有時候一個董事長還是要有自己公司經營理念的最基本啊那 你說現在工業用電"},{"start":3082.014,"end":3104.03,"text":"人民不漲：工業用電漲起來：它的物質不會上升嗎?工業用電都白白的：它都每天都在吸收嗎?這是聯動性的只要任何一個地方漲價通通會連動物質的上升這我想公平會你們都多有所研究啊不要說去騙人說工業用電漲起來：物質不會上漲你都在騙我"},{"start":3109.656,"end":3133.953,"text":"我們在基層裡面所接到的．不管工廠用電．或者工業用電．或者什麼用電．只要電漲價．水漲價．通通物質都會跟著上漲．這是一定的道理啦．所以這提供啊．提供給當事長．跟常事啊．你們去做政策決定的時候．要去做商考最後一個．就是電價審議委員會．"},{"start":3138.598,"end":3160.085,"text":"你們現在的制度就是威權漲價方式我坦白跟你講如果我給你們建議就是很簡單我們本黨提出來的電價委員會 審議委員會要民間過半甚至於甚至於"},{"start":3161.058,"end":3168.785,"text":"要民間三分之二這民間代替台電講話是比你們講了老半天還有用說實在的 不要封閉式 不要危險式在這個部分 電價審議委員會因為我們也已經提議通過要有超過二分之一以上的民間民間幫台電講話"},{"start":3187.19,"end":3200.664,"text":"是比你們講的更有用因為我當過里長我也很清楚我記得很清楚馬英九在講在講那個垃圾不落地垃圾袋要徵收的時候"},{"start":3201.778,"end":3226.571,"text":"是開始從林長他問我怎麼解決才不會有反彈我說讓林長開始了解再來林長了解以後深入林長林長再深入李明我跟你講他推的就很成功啊一開始讓他們試辦他看一看台北市垃圾不漏地這是好的啊相反的"},{"start":3227.091,"end":3244.358,"text":"如果電價審議委員會有多數是民間的你們那個漲價的公信力會更好會更好所以我們台灣民眾黨會提出這些要二分之一通過你們不要以為我們"},{"start":3245.638,"end":3260.412,"text":"去掌權不是這可以透過民間的力量去代替台電把台電的酸甜苦辣講出來老百姓會聽的但是你們怎麼講人家都不聽就剛才我所提出的阿你能買了6、7塊錢來賣給3塊多那一個做生意的那你怎麼做也了不起"},{"start":3270.439,"end":3293.64,"text":"這一定是這樣嘛有沒有辦法就是共體時間請他們也降我們這裡是不是減少就會拉低現在變成是這樣啊力能有辦法做力能就是什麼有辦法做力能就是財團結果這些這些我還是希望啊董事長還有嘗試既然你們要來做這些報告"},{"start":3294.341,"end":3310.769,"text":"那至於後面那一千億用追加用什麼我再看大家好好商量一下反正既成事實的東西要去做這些撥補或者追加我想這個大家還是可以談"},{"start":3314.563,"end":3333.473,"text":"謝謝 國審 國審剛剛已經接連問了很多問題 特別是那個洪思恩洪偉你一直在爭取的那個一千億要併同這個 上台也提了嘛你不要併進來以後討論完之後又追加了一千億到時候又要追加另外一個一千億 人民就不滿了這等一下我們請那個次長好不好 林次長或者是文森來解釋一下好不好那先 之前我們先讓郁真講一下 來 請郁真"},{"start":3335.054,"end":3361.299,"text":"好 謝謝主席．各位委員．還有各位官員．大家午安．台電是處在虧損的狀態．金額已經超過4,000多億．自從2022年到現在．經濟部與能源所分別於．前章基礎建設計畫特別預算．2012年及2013年公務預算於．"},{"start":3363.1,"end":3379.471,"text":"一後的特別預算．累積補助了．台電達3,000億元．甚至在最近國際燃料價．也下跌後．台電成本又下降．本會期還要追加簽譽預算．給台電來彌補虧損．"},{"start":3384.475,"end":3399.549,"text":"執政黨政府即則想要再生能源．取代核能．卻未能堅固能源供應．給穩定性．還有成本控制．台電都了解本地至"},{"start":3400.35,"end":3407.279,"text":"固定的資產也沒有活化．導致臺電臺光這1億4年．債務利息就高達321億．創下就是歷年最高的．今年3月．今3年．電價還是漲了3次．"},{"start":3420.174,"end":3422.136,"text":"長幅超過三成．但是呢．我們電價審議委員．討論過程都沒有直播．計算公式也不明．這次跟民生消費．直接相關的產業．雖然沒有動漲．"},{"start":3439.532,"end":3453.668,"text":"這次漲價仍然影響數十萬產業的用電戶．一定會影響民生物價．提升民生生活的成本．退步來說．我們本次調漲也只能填補．台電150億的黑洞．"},{"start":3461.233,"end":3486.957,"text":"連台電一年要付的利息一半都不到．根本都是杯水車薪．可見台電的經營效益與財務管理．有非常大的問題．我們賴清德總統．政府一直強調能源轉型．當能源政策不明．到現在．人靠持續上漲的電價．還有撥補這兩兆"},{"start":3491.478,"end":3494.859,"text":"來填補財務的漏洞．繼續浪費人民的血和錢．執政黨統促的國家及財務的黑洞．不該強迫人民買單．"},{"start":3507.079,"end":3533.668,"text":"民眾黨這邊我們的國昌委員．在三個會期就質詢．過行政院長卓龍泰．能源配比的問題．結果我們的卓院長一問三不知．雖然賴總統能源政策．只剩下口號而已．沒有計畫沒有路徑．更沒有具體的作為．但口號治國沒有辦法．"},{"start":3536.219,"end":3546.568,"text":"臺灣能源的問題．更沒有辦法解決一般．民生經濟的困境．因此．開能源專報是非常必要．錯誤能"},{"start":3549.631,"end":3570.175,"text":"政策比貪污更可怕．錯誤的政策．比貪污更可怕．我們蔡政府在2025年．再生能源20%的支票．也是在跳票．賴清德總統開了．一張新的支票也是說．2026年也要達到．更加碼在2030年．再生能源．"},{"start":3577.637,"end":3581.579,"text":"暫比30%．2050年到70%．請問如何做到的．大家都是喊口號跟喊數據．難道政府票票都不用負責．行政院必須針對．能源對比的政策來說明．給民眾一個交代．"},{"start":3598.366,"end":3610.554,"text":"因為我們不管是台電我們就是也要去補助還有我們的再生能源還有我們力能也要再編列預算補助還有我們要節能減碳也編列預算去補助所以說我們歷年一直來說我們就是要怎麼樣"},{"start":3617.879,"end":3643.874,"text":"節能減碳怎麼樣減減大家的用電學校冷氣也要說什麼時候要開才回我們政府機關什麼時候開店這樣就一直在減電減電一直在倡導但是我們的店也是一直在漲價漲價又虧損所以這個部分才是我們要好好再去研議的以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3647.159,"end":3666.866,"text":"好 謝謝所以這專報本來要就賴清德政府的能源配比跟定價的政策剛剛事實上台灣民眾黨兩位委員都有提到這個配比看起來問題蠻多的可能不容易達成那現在民進黨那邊黨團是說除了是把這個解釋清楚之外就把一千億的這個追加放進來我們先聽聽那個"},{"start":3669.147,"end":3689.188,"text":"林次長你先講好了吧你講完之後我們請那個曾董事長講完之後我們等一下來做個決定就是決定要不要決定兩件事情第一個專報要不要進行如果今天有共識我們把專報排進去第二個就是洪偉你提的要不要專報的同時把一千億的這個追加放進來好不好我們就做這兩個決定因為今天國民黨沒有來啦"},{"start":3690.929,"end":3703.042,"text":"今天民眾黨排這個協商那民進黨團我們也很誠意那我們也出席啊那只是國民黨沒有來看起來不太可能達成什麼共識"},{"start":3705.123,"end":3730.461,"text":"他們是簽到啦在協商要簽名啊他們國民黨有來簽到因為他們現在在開黨團 黨團會議不過我們兩個黨如果做了決定他們就會支持了有這種事情嗎現在只有兩個嘛不是不是 聖誕現在只有兩個嘛我們今天要決定的就是要不要開這個專報嘛 對不對你們如果同意專報就一定要進行了嘛國民黨不會反對啊那第二個要討論的是你剛剛提的一千億的追加預算要不要併案"},{"start":3732.113,"end":3750.6,"text":"要不要變案那他們解釋完之後我們聽聽連市長跟文森董事長做決定做二選一的決定好不好主席我要再說一次今天我們我是針對今天我們這個議案我們今天這個議案的討論第一個我是建議我們把這個議案等到禮拜五"},{"start":3752.06,"end":3766.297,"text":"那韓院長卓院長那早朝野的委員們黨團們一起討論接下來包括總預算前瞻預算台電追加減預算接下來怎麼安排好那會有一個時程大致的規劃下"},{"start":3767.898,"end":3796.115,"text":"那今天這個專報如果要我們是希望是並同一千億的追加減而不是獨立拉出來另外一天因為我我們講理由講得很清楚因為這是一個完整的東西要如果顧及到這個一體兩面的周全性的話應該放在一起一起報告並同進去這事情我覺得我們可以討論但是我們目前並不贊成把它"},{"start":3796.875,"end":3822.705,"text":"分開不同天但是我們認為比較完整的是因為第一個今天國民黨也不在我是建議說禮拜五那這個兩院做一個這樣子的交流過去有的爭議看大家怎麼怎麼去化解去和緩然後我們一把一起把後面這些事情一併的來做討論我覺得一樣是比較周全的做法我們的看法是這樣了然後再一個是剛剛其實兩位委員我還是想說因為"},{"start":3824.325,"end":3846.221,"text":"這個法是我們當初一起立的我說電業法47條剛剛不管國城委員也好或者是麥正委員好都有講到這次的電價審議委員會的這個機制是大家朝野一起有共識的民間的委員過半事實上這次10月的電價審議機制裡面民間的委員也真的過半了"},{"start":3847.743,"end":3874.239,"text":"過半的民間委員也真的在這個審議會裡面發生了影響力也不是都是行政部門想要怎樣全部都照著過並不是這樣所以我說剛剛大家又把這個電價審議機制罵了一頓我心想說我有點錯亂我們在今年7月那時候通過的時候大家都覺得很好都覺得跨出了很重要的一步也覺得朝野合作在這邊有一個重要的基礎"},{"start":3875.9,"end":3885.484,"text":"結果怎麼突然過了三個月就大家就開始把這個事情全部罵了一頓不是7月的時候大家都覺得很好嗎自己都覺得我們都覺得我們為電價審議機制的專業化邁進了一大步嗎當時當時不是都這樣覺得嗎所以我覺得這個地方"},{"start":3893.388,"end":3920.563,"text":"我們現在就執行了啦所以我說一個是今天議案上面的問題我覺得我們優先處理好不好對那個電價審理委員會我們的改革是兩大塊嘛一個就是民間跟專業要二分之一嘛第二個更重要的就是公開透明嘛所以他在兩個禮拜內他會把公開透明這個當天所有紀錄大家會檢視啦那沒關係事實上就是大家會檢視說那天他們到底夠不夠專業幫人民去看我們來檢視好不好那我們簡短我們請連次長先來好不好我們等一下趕快做個決定謝謝"},{"start":3923.124,"end":3942.96,"text":"主席還有三位委員剛剛大家提到電力能源配備政策我們現在目前還是在整個能源轉型政策是用再生能源為主軸同時搭配低碳天然氣發電並推動地熱氫能等這些新能源然後來穩定供電多元綠能跟減煤減碳"},{"start":3944.241,"end":3954.931,"text":"那在2030年我們目前的整個能源配比是天然氣是五成再生能源三成然後燃煤兩成那至於再生能源目前整個推動狀況"},{"start":3957.332,"end":3979.75,"text":"太陽光電目前我們到今年8月已經有推13.6GW．離岸風電也有360座風機．並廣裝置容量也達到將近3GW．第2目前我們正在整個6個淺層第2個暗廠．還有10大第2淺層我們目前正在進行探勘．尤其我們現在是由國營事業先行．請中油台電目前正很積極在做"},{"start":3981.852,"end":3998.683,"text":"那水利發電目前也有一些初步的一個成果就整個發電量是佔全國的1.7%那至於剛剛很多委員垂詢的這一次的整個電價審議其實就是新的這樣電價審議下來我們是有外部委員是超過一半以上"},{"start":3999.503,"end":4026.77,"text":"那跟大家報告一下那天那天大家初步討論完之後就是有一些共識解就是說電價這次電價調整是要秉持照顧民生跟穩定物價兼顧產業競爭力這兩個原則來進行調整同時我們針針對這些產業用電不是只有考慮到他產業用電的成長衰退還有考慮到如果是製造業他的產值的一個變化狀況"},{"start":4027.85,"end":4041.434,"text":"阿福惠是考慮到他的銷售的一個情況用這樣的幾個元素來做討論做討論那最後就是決議就是住宅小商店這時候占所有的這些用電戶的車95.6%就是不調整"},{"start":4044.935,"end":4061.894,"text":"然後民生那因為這裡會設幾張我們剛才講的說要穩定物價所以跟民生有關的內需的部分像跟食品有關的製造還有零售這一部分還有攤販、量販店、超市反正跟民眾常常會去的這些超市這些就是動漲"},{"start":4062.975,"end":4089.256,"text":"那另外針對龍魚學校還有社會團體那這個掌握這個目的事業主管機關來編列經費支應那根據這幾個原則所以我們做了這樣的一個調整那另外當然後來社會輿論有一些聲音出來那當然很多前面是根據那個原則做了一點調整後來我們也考慮到社會的一些聲音我們又做了一些微調就是香煙草葉這一塊我們後來本來是調"},{"start":4093.186,"end":4115.602,"text":"百分之七後來我們把它恢復到百分之四十四那後來因為本來診所這一塊本來就百分之七十幾是不不去調整的那為了要維持一致性所以就把醫院這一塊我們又把它動漲過來那那時候也考慮到餐食跟外匯或團善這一部分也是跟民生起起相關後來這一部分我們也維持動漲那當然"},{"start":4117.679,"end":4140.86,"text":"在有一些花蓮這些女數位等等這些我們本來這個就是動漲在而且我們是延續到0403地震的這樣的一個系列下來那跟我們報告齁這個這次的外部委員是過半齁那在形成這樣的共識然後我們把這些相關的類表出來的時候我是那天的主席我還特別問了三次齁"},{"start":4141.741,"end":4166.397,"text":"委員這個東西大家同不同意大家一致說同意我問了三次大家所以這個是充分的是經過委員充分去討論過而且我們開了差不多將近三個小時三個小時去逐一的去看去討論那當然我們的整體的會議記錄會在兩個禮拜以後我們會公開上網來呈現給外界來做檢驗那以上我初步報告"},{"start":4168.035,"end":4179.23,"text":"次長是那天那個電價審議會的主席那一天當然現在看起來有些地方都幅度都在改剛講那個煙本來後來就變成說不漲了可是那個煙草那一塊就被罵慘了"},{"start":4180.185,"end":4209.523,"text":"那現在老實講今天交通部也有人來你看交通部就在爭取說像台電那個台電漲了台鐵之後台鐵那個多了多少2.28億是不是這可能早先他們又要去問那個次長跟店家審議委員會了等一下我們有機會今天可能時間來不及了我們早先再看看可能內部自己要再檢討一下啦好不好那這樣文森講完之後我們趕快做決定這是剛剛我是建議就是等一下用洪森那洪偉那個建議啦到底要不要到禮拜五去還是說我們就是今天讓他通過要不要變案這樣子好不好我們就等下討論來文森"},{"start":4210.063,"end":4234.742,"text":"好,謝謝主席還有謝謝各位委員喔那個,台電是國營事業啦屬虛雄真的在台灣獨國行獨棲啦齁那所以我們在國內沒得比較我們就要跟全世界做比較那我跟委員報告其實我們不去講歐洲那種日本那個電價動輒超過五塊新台幣那德國又超過十塊新台幣那個是台灣電價的用倍再算倍數再算"},{"start":4235.522,"end":4259.041,"text":"我們最容易Benchmark的國家其實是韓國韓國電力公司跟台灣比較相像就是他其實他也是國營的然後他是等於是相對來講他就是一個獨占事業那其實台灣的電價到目前為止都比韓國還要低工業電價比他低那民生的電價更是低他們的民生電價是3.99元台灣的是2.77元這是平均電價"},{"start":4263.684,"end":4282.984,"text":"其實我們有基礎的電價就是500度以下的現在的電價的電費比20年前的價格還要低比2004年的價格還要低這個電價結構是確實需要去面對因為這20年來台灣大概所有的成本都漲了"},{"start":4284.205,"end":4303.359,"text":"所有的成本都漲了那更不用講說國際的燃料價格在這20年間其實是有一定程度的波動不過站在國營事業的角度就是立法院對國營事業的營運狀況有任何需要了解的地方我們都會來報告我也跟各位委員報告其實我們現在談的是院會的報告"},{"start":4304.64,"end":4327.944,"text":"其實我們下個禮拜要去經濟委員會報告電價專報就是說電價的專報是必然匯報那現在台電遇到的狀況需要大院支持的是這個樣子就是說我們只針對民生的電價沒有反應所產生的落差2022年大概差了我們自己內部的估算差了1,08億2023年差了1,01億"},{"start":4333.105,"end":4354.734,"text":"這個就包含住宅跟小店家2024年就今年今年我們預估大概是800億那其中有一個部分是因為國際的燃料價格在這一段時間有消一下來但是我們也天天盯著那個博安的狀況在看前陣子那個油價突然噹了一下漲了4%昨天又掉下來了"},{"start":4355.794,"end":4381.552,"text":"我們也是在看著這個整個波動的狀況那我們估算今年大概800億所以整個來講那個1,000億的追加預算實質是高度的fit就是我們針對民生物價民生電價所承擔的政策責任而提的我想說在這邊特別跟各位委員做報告那各位委員另外關心就是綠電的價格等等的事其實細節我很願意做說明因為現在企業在買的綠電"},{"start":4384.594,"end":4403.861,"text":"他們在市場買的價格．雖然不太一樣．但你會看到．台電的短購長期來看．除了你在扶植新的再生能源產業．可能它在前期的價格比較高以外．後段現在民間在市場上買的價格．不見得會比短購的費率低"},{"start":4404.821,"end":4427.917,"text":"好不見得會低我們願意願意分析出來那當然我們也接到政策指示因為我們要支持國內的產業擁有再生能源有阿姨的憑證可能台電賺夠的這些相關的再生能源也必須做一定程度的規劃來支援我們的產業取得再生能源那我覺得這些工作開始進行其實時間一發生下去"},{"start":4429.958,"end":4447.148,"text":"我是非常願意跟各位委員做報告就是他可能的走向會走到什麼地方那至於大家很關心的核電的問題我還是要回答就是臺電是事業單位現在的法律規定我們就是要近代政策決定我想說在這邊跟特別跟委員做報告謝謝聽了那個鄭文生鄭董事長的講他應該很想要來專報嘛對不對"},{"start":4455.962,"end":4484.316,"text":"事實上像這樣子啦剛剛如果就林國成連委跟麥一貞提的就是我們為什麼當初要提這個能源配比就是因為我們覺得現在能源配比是有問題的他剛剛國成不是有講嗎你就是說你現在你過去8年包括蔡政府的8年你看再生能源才增加了5%結果你能源配比你們現在兩年兩個月後說要增加18%不可能達到嘛然後最便宜的這個核能這個又被廢掉我不要多話啦我只是會議不要多話好不好我們來做決策啦就是說現在看起來"},{"start":4485.296,"end":4499.351,"text":"看起來台電跟經濟部認為說應該要有專報嘛對他們希望把事情講清楚那對台灣民眾黨來講我們也認為說應該要有專報那只是說民眾民進黨現在提說要把追加一千億把它併同來報嘛現在是到底要兩個還是一個"},{"start":4501.371,"end":4519.17,"text":"我先說第一個我們剛剛其實大家其實蠻充分的討論那彼此我覺得也針對很多的問題去做一些釐清那我自己是建議今天真的因為第一個國民黨也沒來就坦白說不知道他的看法怎樣我不知道為什麼他簽的到就跑了"},{"start":4520.571,"end":4522.912,"text":"為補貼龐大財務黑洞．台電打"},{"start":4543.553,"end":4560.825,"text":"因為一千億一定是需要專報的一定是院長一定是要來報的啦好一千我說一千億的追加減的部分院長一定是要來報告的我們並不反對如果要今天有這個能源配比跟電價機制的話就併在那裡面用併同的方式併在裡面我們不反對"},{"start":4562.182,"end":4567.045,"text":"他下禮拜就要去經濟委員會就要報告真的這個已經要報告了院會你比較有機會來啊不是不要只有我們經濟委員會那個主席主席我要說大家都很清楚也經過了一個會期"},{"start":4580.433,"end":4598.008,"text":"第一個在報告上面其實一定會針對這個部分多所琢磨清楚的說明而且是有院長來說明如果併在一起的話如果併同的話一樣一樣也會報告到這一點那要問的話要質詢的話也一定都質詢的到就算沒有報告"},{"start":4600.031,"end":4616.526,"text":"前面幾個禮拜大家也質詢非常非常多次了也沒有也從來沒有迴避也都可以質詢的到所以不管是報告也好不管是質詢也好我們覺得把它併到一千億的追加減的報告裡面我們覺得這是如果是這樣的話我們可以接受"},{"start":4618.492,"end":4642.492,"text":"但我們不贊成把它分開但是我覺得這整體的部分我們建議就是等到五禮拜五的朝野聚餐以後來一併討論我們的看法是這樣子現在總議算是被退回程序委員會你怎麼知道這個一千億這一千億一定進得來好像真的不單獨先處理你先把一千億這個先拿掉我們先把那個專案報告"},{"start":4644.717,"end":4649.703,"text":"主席我現在講的就是說這是民進黨團的主張這是民進黨團的主張那我們也希望這個我們絕對不會迴避針對能源政策能源配備電價機制的報告跟詢答沒有迴避"},{"start":4664.747,"end":4689.475,"text":"沒有迴避我們沒有沒有迴避下禮拜在委員會就有了都沒有迴避只是我們針對通過今天的專案針對今天這個事情針對這個事情我們的主張就是這樣那因為國民黨沒來我其實是覺得我們把我們的態度表達國民黨都沒來我們也很有誠意在這邊把我們的看法很完整的跟大家報告了好謝謝我是建議這個我們可能也要先離開了好"},{"start":4690.535,"end":4713.185,"text":"我是建議主席這樣因為深旱這些建議當然我們還是可以考慮但是第一個我認為專報歸專報禮拜五因為院長兩院院長跟三黨的黨編都要有一個見面的一個協商那如果這個專報因為不影響專報我們還是照專報"},{"start":4719.307,"end":4731.572,"text":"深漢禮拜五大家氣氛還不錯才請主席也把他併進去那這樣的話就變成比較圓滿因為那一千億你現在把他併進去說實在的這樣也太聰明了因為他們談得怎麼樣"},{"start":4735.914,"end":4763.648,"text":"大人談得怎麼樣都不曉得我們就去做決定這樣也不太好所以我們還是先通過這個專報還是照報因為這個是院會交下來的我們今天討論的就是說你願不願意來報告啊願意那如果是院長也願意來那付把這個一千億把它付那個付上去這個也是ok的所以我建議單獨通過這個那那些就等禮拜一以後再來做議決"},{"start":4766.431,"end":4770.173,"text":"因為黨團協商我也算三長因為禮拜五也會見面所以說我們不管是黨團協商跟兩院見面還是說沒有見面"},{"start":4787.463,"end":4791.625,"text":"我們各個部會都會來找我們的黨團來去溝通才能達到共識再來黨團協商才能有結果所以今天我們讓大家有個機會事先我們討論"},{"start":4810.015,"end":4829.266,"text":"達成共識該上去再跟我們山長再來去報備我們再來去來去做協商才能是圓滿啊這個就是我們在這段時間各個部會找我們來去做說明的用意嗎對不對所以說我們今天是有這個機會韓院長也是有"},{"start":4832.208,"end":4838.753,"text":"有給我們有這樣子的權力來去做黨團協商但是我們沒辦法達成共識我們也是要來知道說我們已經沒辦法達成共識大家有誠意來一起來來去協商但是沒有達成共識我們就是要回報我們在禮拜五怎麼去決定嗎不能說我們總預算退回去你們也沒有任何動作也沒有任何修改"},{"start":4859.309,"end":4863.413,"text":"這樣子的話對我們立法院的委員一點尊重都沒有啦這個就是我們是要去表達我們的用意所以我們要請我們的主席做決定今天因為三黨協商我們是協商三黨協商但是有簽名還沒有到場"},{"start":4878.647,"end":4882.088,"text":"這個協商也沒辦法去達成共識啦所以我們也希望說他們沒有來逐人但是我們民眾黨很有誠意來聽聽你們講聽聽我們是不是可以幫你們來去講話"},{"start":4893.672,"end":4901.016,"text":"是不是我們的用意很清楚很理性也希望達成共識所以我們才要辦這樣子的一個協商我們八個我們就來三個了我們是很有誠意的也希望說你們拿出你們的困難或者需要我們要去協商我們也可以有機會幫大家講話這個不是不是對嗎我們要為了我們的福國利民嘛不是為了反對而反對呀是不是這樣"},{"start":4922.71,"end":4931.929,"text":"所以我們希望就是大家都有充分的討論也要請我們主席採視謝謝以上非常理性務實科學不只是洪聖誕跟"},{"start":4933.198,"end":4957.107,"text":"臺灣民眾黨的立委的這個對談還有跟我們觀點也都非常理性務實科學那現在如果連市長還有那個臺電這邊你們現在應該是希望兩個嘛我這樣聽下來一個是希望有一個專報那要不要把這個一千億併進來你們回去跟院長跟經濟部那邊也再討論一下好不好那你們覺得今天因為義貞是幹市長那禮拜五會在你會把你們的意見一些建議可以跟義貞請義貞幫你們表達好不好那我們就我看起來"},{"start":4960.268,"end":4981.396,"text":"我們就等禮拜五看他們協商怎麼樣以後我們再來做最後決定好不好我先讀一下這個最後的這個最後決定我們是報告黨團協商會今天沒辦法達成共識所以本案我們就保留送請韓國瑜韓院長協商協商會議結束以後我們再來進一步的討論好不好那我們現在宣布協商會議結束謝謝大家"},{"start":4987.381,"end":4989.281,"text":"市長想跟您說明一下"},{"start":5021.933,"end":5023.236,"text":"本期視頻就介紹到這裡﹗"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024100784","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T13:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於國際燃料成本下跌，台電今年1－7月的平均每度售電成本降至每度3.7117元，較去年相比，成本下降0.45元以上；然台電財務目前仍處在多賣多虧狀態，今年1－7月的稅前虧損為529億元，總累計虧損已達4,348億元。為補貼龐大財務黑洞，台電打算追加1,000億元預算，若再加上經濟部於明（114）年度公務預算編列1,000億元給台電，將有兩個千億台電電費補貼案待本院審查。台電董事長曾文生表示，這是要「補貼民生電價沒有漲足的部分」，若無法追加預算，不排除10月份再漲電價。台電經營未能符合「國營事業管理法」規定，力求「有盈無虧」之原則，全面調漲電價將更嚴重衝擊民生物價，賴清德政府上任迄今，更無法回覆本院委員「國家能源政策與配比」，顯見民進黨政府的能源配比「只有口號、毫無規劃。」爰建請院會作成決議：「113年9月23日（星期一）加開院會，邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長就『賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策』進行專案報告並備質詢，質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派7人、民進黨黨團推派7人、台灣民眾黨黨團推派1人進行，每位委員詢答時間15分鐘；質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理。名單請於9月20日（星期五）下午5時前送交議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。」是否有當？請公決案。）","委員發言時間":"13:00:17 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112年11月1日期,出生幼兒前面納入3歲以下幼兒專責醫師制度。目前共有1,276家診所,2,837位醫師投入服務。"},{"start":2321.826,"end":2328.892,"text":"另外,建設社會安全網線上求助平台補助12家醫院辦理兒少保護醫療整合中心"},{"start":2329.542,"end":2346.316,"text":"防治兒少內帶與疏忽,擴充發展遲晚兒童社區療癒服務提高早期療癒補助以及輔助貧窮弱勢家庭自立推動兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶開戶人士計3.43萬人,開戶率達65%"},{"start":2354.147,"end":2366.872,"text":"在友善生養健康測試部分110年7月起擴大不印症治療補助對象至一般不印夫妻成功產下2.13萬名嬰兒補助"},{"start":2374.234,"end":2386.617,"text":"應互產檢由10次提高到14次,超音波檢查由1次提高到3次,並新生妊娠糖尿病篩檢及貧血檢查。行政院已請國和會進行少子化"},{"start":2390.037,"end":2418.659,"text":"少子女化實證調查分析作為精進下這段計畫參考本部將配合行政院規劃與相關部會共同提供育兒家庭道援讓年輕一代感恩、怨聲、樂揚3本部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討監察院糾正本部疏於督導地方"},{"start":2419.286,"end":2447.18,"text":"政府落實聯合國兒童替代性照顧準則之有特殊需求兒童安置於成人機構一案本部以積極督導地方政府進促主案前面檢視事例兒少受照顧的狀況擬定轉嫌安置計畫及導入相關資源並要求地方政府定期匯報檢討情形事實給予協助"},{"start":2449.898,"end":2478.413,"text":"為充實特殊需求兒童安置量能本部透過增加補助照顧特殊兒少所需經費搭配專業團隊到載指導寄養家庭並由精神醫療團隊外展制安置機構提供嚴重情緒障礙兒少服務另外針對因宿內嚴重有高度醫療或護理需求者補助公立醫療機構"},{"start":2481.397,"end":2503.923,"text":"醫療財團法人附設的長照機構設立兒少照護專區提供滿足兒少身心發展需求的照護環境本部會積極督導地方政府落實以兒少最佳利益為優先考量之安置決策與處理計畫並近期檢視執行狀況及成效評估確保室內兒童獲得平等發展的機會"},{"start":2510.936,"end":2520.164,"text":"本部曾答應各委員之指教及監督,在此敬致謝神,並期各位委員繼續予以支持。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":2530.256,"end":2556.072,"text":"有關本市會議各項書面資料均列入記錄並刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本委員會的委員詢答時間6加2就是8分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止花園登記委員如有書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":2557.37,"end":2558.731,"text":"主席麻煩我們的部長"},{"start":2592.977,"end":2612.755,"text":"部長早今天要跟你部長來討論少子女化跟特殊需求兒少安置到底要怎麼樣去解決下一張首先針對特殊需求安置的孩子在我上任前就有參與我們在111年兒權公約的國家報告國際委員來台的審查會議當中"},{"start":2613.851,"end":2633.786,"text":"我記得當時就有提到因為他覺得在106年的時候他們來審查的時候就希望安置能夠去機構化不要再安置在機構可是看起來很難達到所以他說那到底臺灣的短中長期怎麼去走就是到底既然你16年"},{"start":2635.66,"end":2660.659,"text":"我提出來這樣做你做不到那你的短中長期怎麼去甚至私立的安置機構要改善還有要有有效的把關措施下一頁那可是為什麼國際委員審查有這些結論那我自己在上來之前我擔任兒童權益促進聯盟的"},{"start":2661.152,"end":2686.169,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2686.783,"end":2710.401,"text":"︺"},{"start":2710.674,"end":2727.227,"text":"1111"},{"start":2727.527,"end":2751.352,"text":"甚至也因為口耳相傳本來只有一個的就變成20個孩子安置在這個護理之家如果不是重症的話那沒有這個需求甚至有的剛開始是重症他也把呼吸器拿掉了各方面都顯現的OK的時候繼續因為單親媽媽沒辦法照顧這一次監察院報告裡邊有的當初就是我們提供的相關資料就你們報告完全不顯現這個甚至有情緒障礙的孩子他"},{"start":2751.732,"end":2779.036,"text":" ️"},{"start":2779.582,"end":2796.459,"text":" ️"},{"start":2796.819,"end":2797.74,"text":"這過去本來安置機構就有這個問題"},{"start":2822.99,"end":2841.36,"text":"那即便你先提出來你的報告提出來說要有社工人力進駐沒有錯社工人力進駐可是社工呢6點下班了孩子呢4點下課了他們交會的時間到底有多長根本就是還是沒有辦法符合兒少可是一般的安置機構他會考慮到這樣有提供生福人員"},{"start":2842.09,"end":2862.978,"text":" ︎"},{"start":2863.882,"end":2864.663,"text":"那我不知道怎麼反而是成長的"},{"start":2893.812,"end":2918.345,"text":"所以在111年人家國際委員也提出來所以想問你的從111年的6月的114人到112年的年底成長到176人所以想問部長原因是什麼衛福部為什麼對特殊需求的兒少安置的政策跟計畫有要修正跟調整嗎"},{"start":2919.79,"end":2947.35,"text":"好 謝謝委員的催省那針對委員提出很多實務上發現的問題然後提出指導我個人深感敬佩因為這個是您花了很多的專業跟時間來瞭解非常謝謝那我們在針對特殊需求兒童的安置其實有兩個原則第一個就是我們盡量讓他回家庭"},{"start":2948.954,"end":2969.927,"text":"就是剛剛委員所提到的這個是衛福部一直在做的政策如果能夠回原生家庭最好如果不然就是安養家庭如果他調養的好的話所以這也是跟國際市場要回到家庭裡面去如果說他真的不能出來的話我們一定會有給他教育那比如說巡迴輔導教師的資源當然剛剛委員提到"},{"start":2973.189,"end":2976.614,"text":"在時間上的配合或怎麼樣,我們這個都可以來把細節的調研。"},{"start":2980.66,"end":2980.8,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":3007.113,"end":3035.186,"text":"在這邊還是要提出我們當時在公聽會的一個訴求第一個由衛福部來委託或補助規劃成立北中南東區的專業輔導團隊給予我們的安置機構更多的專業能力跟服務可是你們的報告裡面說只有我的公辦的兒童之家有這樣子其他的私立不需要嗎第二個是衛福部要研擬安置特殊需求的兒少照顧分類標準跟評估機制來評估結果"},{"start":3036.887,"end":3038.688,"text":"第三個應該研擬將特殊需求安置兒少從長照機構"},{"start":3065.446,"end":3074.471,"text":"轉嫌到兒少機構的實施計畫這上次提出來2月提出來講到現在已經一年多了那希望孩子能夠到"},{"start":3077.185,"end":3102.265,"text":"主席不好意思再讓我一點時間那請問部長這些結論跟建議社家屬執行的進度是怎樣現在時間上來不及請你們就是再給我報告所以在這邊我大概有三個短中長期的計畫短期希望還是嚴理安置特殊需求的孩子分級分類的一個標準跟評估我們當然沒有辦法立即馬上去機構化可是應該要分級分類這個要去考慮"},{"start":3102.725,"end":3120.98,"text":"那更何況應該針對特殊需求的孩子能夠有這樣子的兒少機構照顧那中期還是要有專業人員進入到兒少安置機構裡面提供兒少的安置機構的工作人員的真能不是護理人員自己去上課事實上是要有符合他們的設計特殊需求兒少的個別化的服務"},{"start":3121.22,"end":3144.48,"text":"議員"},{"start":3144.991,"end":3146.132,"text":"我10年來一向堅持這樣的方向"},{"start":3169.167,"end":3189.139,"text":"在努力所以好,非常感謝部長能夠保持初心堅持對的事情也就是你同意要有中央的兒童專責單位我們一直在努力因為當時主張的是這樣今年是農年可是上半年只生了6萬3876人農年可能會比虎年更少去年度你還都"},{"start":3189.599,"end":3213.541,"text":"23"},{"start":3214.622,"end":3240.132,"text":"能夠以兒童為中心的社會以日本的經驗來成立兒童兒少的專責機構下一頁所以對少子化我們可不可以比照日本的經驗一個是成立中央級的專責單位來整合不是讓散播到各部會裡邊我們講的好聽叫各失其職講難聽叫各自為政要有統合才有辦法解決因為要預算編列還要"},{"start":3241.076,"end":3241.576,"text":"接下來我們請陳昭智委員質詢"},{"start":3271.158,"end":3272.862,"text":"麻煩邱部長部長早安"},{"start":3279.468,"end":3285.631,"text":"委員長博定CIA前一陣子公布了全球2024年全球生育率因為差幾個月嘛它這個預測台灣拿下第227名生育率是1.11南韓是倒數第二名1.12新加坡是1.17那這個都還比我們在前面那請看右邊這個數字剛剛葉群偉也稍微提到到8月為止我們跟去年比今年是榮年"},{"start":3305.299,"end":3329.188,"text":"然後我們出生的人數少了3000人啊所以部長民進黨越拚越害啦2016年有20萬人啦啊每年降1萬到去年是13萬啊現在還看來很不可觀喔很這個很危險喔所以部長你對這個傲視全球另類的傲視全球少子化的成績齁你要有些什麼想法啦我現在用數字告訴你是失敗的啦好第二張齁"},{"start":3330.569,"end":3353.644,"text":"部長為了少子化問題我知道大家也做了一些努力了原來有個少子女對策計畫在國建署但是我要請問為什麼明年的計畫經費相較於今年還少了7億元少了將近兩成到底是國人不知道使用還是他不需要使用還是他不符合使用方法你覺得怎麼會還變是放棄了嗎"},{"start":3357.826,"end":3375.494,"text":"衛福部是放棄了在搶救少子化嗎?這編的錢還比去年還要少這麼多這是第一個就是編列的預算那第二個我要談的還是人工生殖法兩千塊錢你就就基本的捐精捐卵的人工生殖法到現在已經17百年那個法度現在都還沒有改變"},{"start":3377.159,"end":3391.714,"text":"那這個等於是你整個進步的法案你完全沒有跟上而且我們人工生殖技術越來越進步越來越成熟完全按兵不動所以我是不是要請這個國建署一周內給我一個資料為什麼少子女這個對策計畫今年還少編了這個7億元將近兩次 塞北一個一周內給我好嗎"},{"start":3399.442,"end":3409.005,"text":"法委沒問題我要了解一下嘛到底發生什麼事我們來想辦法努力我們絕對不會輕視少子化的問題而且會一定要按照需求啦按照那個實證實際上因為我們的那個未滿2歲人口數"},{"start":3416.608,"end":3416.728,"text":"下一張。"},{"start":3431.468,"end":3445.893,"text":"部長,你們看一下,處長也可以一起看。那這麼多企業你們看出共同性嗎?這都很有名的。NVIDIA、Netflix、American Express、Google等等。還有Meta、ST Loader都有。你猜得出他們有什麼共同性嗎?"},{"start":3448.032,"end":3462.53,"text":"太難了我知道好下一個答案來下一張部長現在看那個企業齁都怪很多耳熟能詳的他都提供人工生殖的那個補助的大企業我要跟你講齁像這個化妝品那個SD Loader齁他提供齁"},{"start":3463.951,"end":3485.121,"text":"15萬美元的人工生殖福利可以用在代理孕母跟試管嬰兒好這個為大家帶來希望跟夢想的迪士尼迪士尼也提供了75000美元的代理孕母福利Google也是300萬台幣的這個福利給代理孕母光光這個部分就是說這些大企業他們在鼓勵員工要來成家我們來看看我們自己台灣這光黃仁勳先生的輝達公司大家可以去網站看"},{"start":3488.703,"end":3509.099,"text":"他被評比為代孕福利衝第一,最佳的企業。已在官網上寫著,這段話很讓人感動。發展家庭的這個決定是一個重大的決定。在你人生生命中最重要時刻之一,無論你走哪一條路,我們都會在這裡為你提供支援。支援可用在收養生育設施跟試管嬰兒治療,還代孕。"},{"start":3511.201,"end":3520.67,"text":"無論你如何去擴大你的家庭我們都會為您和您生命中最重要的人提供公平公正的資源這是非常讓人感動的一句話黃仁勳台灣之光"},{"start":3522.619,"end":3541.374,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3541.534,"end":3541.975,"text":"我國建署三字民調"},{"start":3557.561,"end":3578.493,"text":"3次國家民調2011年13年15年我簡單複習一下3年總來是這個是3次的總的標準大概是有8成人支持代孕6成的人是支持2成沒有意見不反對2011年超過一半就贊成說妻子無子宮這就可以找人來代孕2013年68 7成的民眾不贊成繼續禁止"},{"start":3580.074,"end":3608.401,"text":"因為當時是禁止的而且86人他贊成就是要把他納入規範那在2015年那次有6成人是支持代理的2成人沒有反對所以3次民調當中大概都有8成人支持給予代理孕母一個因懷孕所需要的費用跟損失部長難道不知道你們最近收集什麼意見五月底就提出那個不版啊你收集什麼意見所有意見你這樣反對人就拼命寫拼命講啊那個意見公平嗎公正嗎"},{"start":3609.281,"end":3609.301,"text":"部長"},{"start":3632.372,"end":3637.014,"text":"但是上週陳金輝委員就質詢的時候總質詢的時候您說要10月底才能送出這個送到性評會是嗎我再跟您確定是什麼時候要送到性評會"},{"start":3652.165,"end":3675.215,"text":"包委員現在我們經過了6次以上更多的專家會議因為的確最多的問題還是最多的雙方的意見還是在爭議還是在代理義務這個部分所以我們很用心的已經很鳥籠代孕了我們很擔心這個代孕出來即便你的不本出來都沒有人可以適用喔"},{"start":3677.663,"end":3678.586,"text":"現在的時程是這樣,我們希望國民政黨署能夠在11月"},{"start":3684.71,"end":3710.104,"text":"你信憑會你也是委員啊?11月送到那個衛福部,那我們經過衛福部法規會相關的處理以後我們...這2010幾年就開始做了啦,做了三十年啦你認為這個信憑會有權利退回衛福部的法案嗎?他上次這樣做啦,他上次沒有把他,會前會沒有把他放在議程裡啊他上次這樣做你允許嗎?你允許信憑會再把你的法案退回去嗎?不列在議程裡面嗎?"},{"start":3712.028,"end":3722.978,"text":"你一直說要凝聚共識再送審這30年沒有共識,我們在等30年嗎?天下有什麼事有共識?共識是誰的共識?賴清德總統也在40%而已,他就做總統啊我的答應80%呢?兩倍呢?為什麼他可以當總統,我的答應不能過?"},{"start":3735.322,"end":3754.223,"text":"你要找誰找共識?什麼叫共識?兩杯咧?好看一下賴總統你的上司賴立委任何一個政策都不可能因為社會少數人的意見不可能說得到百分之百的共識就是要去處理過去的同分法不就是如此嗎?無比無比我們還是讓他過啦"},{"start":3755.524,"end":3773.936,"text":"任何有動見的執政者能夠摒棄隔絕這樣的聲音才是能夠做出對國家人權最有利的決定。你看那金德利委2002年就是這樣有先見之明的人,他提出了代孕法案,那是20年前,將近23年他還調查了很多做了一個非常完整的很感人的一個法案說明。"},{"start":3774.793,"end":3804.085,"text":"部長,我必須相信你會延續他的意志,不然你去問他,你隨時可以找得到他,也不能打電話跟他抱怨別人,你當然可以跟他說,說他有事嗎?他有事就說你自己是有事嗎?一直說有事,他國務院也跟他說有有有,你一直告訴人家說我20幾年就開始支持你,他說支持啊,你去問總統,外部部版本人工生殖法,讓誕生、同性、子宮有病、免性在這個草版裡面都能夠有機會拿回他們籌組家庭的"},{"start":3804.945,"end":3828.279,"text":"權力啊!你永遠沒有共識啦!要等到當時啦!要等到當時!這個我很討厭的團體一直辦很多直播啦!一直在說代孕有問題!然後不曉得誰讓他待在性癖會待了一輩子!他講什麼消尾你知道嗎?同性伴侶跟單身有燃眉之急!只供有病變的人先放一邊!"},{"start":3829.71,"end":3844.044,"text":"博敬這就是剝削這個就是階級化他來決定誰需要誰不需要單身跟同性有燃眉之急這個我們都支持單身跟同性那個子宮有病病的你放一邊脫鉤不做博敬你也信憑會委員的你會輸嗎你剛講出來沒有你以前也是支持的你也是提案支持代孕的"},{"start":3854.741,"end":3860.646,"text":"把人的需求分高低前後實在讓人覺得噁心可惡最後部長一個進步的法案真的有需要為了永遠的少數的反對者在這邊繼續蹉跎嗎再一個30年嗎"},{"start":3877.176,"end":3878.437,"text":"如果你要認為說為什麼待運要完美的演出?"},{"start":3906.823,"end":3922.372,"text":"你不允許他有一點點出錯率嗎?才小於1%如果你認為出錯率要用出錯率這群女人講的要用出錯率去決定要不要通過一個法案我告訴你我們要禁止的是結婚婚姻因為婚姻出錯率有30%我們要禁止的是收養因為收養出錯率有60%"},{"start":3926.274,"end":3938.978,"text":"博定要想一想各種狀況你為什麼要讓這些人沒有理智不需求的健康自私人在擋住我的法案呢我的法案不是我要用的很多人在等子宮有病面是他們想要的嗎趕快出來吧法案性評會好好的把你的立場站穩博定你要站穩喔你自己的老闆也是自己喔"},{"start":3949.477,"end":3957.204,"text":"鼠長也麻煩你了,你們都是在信評會的委員。好,謝謝。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。謝謝陳昭珠委員,支持你啦,支持你。謝謝部長。好,接下來我們請陳清輝委員質詢。"},{"start":3971.317,"end":3994.629,"text":"主席 啊 部長 抱歉啦 你都 坐不 幾分鐘謝謝 部長 我是接著 對啦 我是接著陳委員繼續問因為今天要質詢您的議題真的很廣泛 今天我們超委給我們排的問題太多了其實你要我問人工生殖法少子化 我問三天三夜也可以 但是"},{"start":3996.91,"end":4021.568,"text":"我覺得我最近真的很像執政黨的委員了因為我拼命在幫你們辯護也希望你們可以拿出勇敢的 guts 好嗎我現在覺得我比執政黨委員還像執政黨委員當然剛剛說我們已經蹉跎了30年但是我覺得有一個優點就是我們希望我們可以在這個任期啊做出一點推進因為人工生殖第一進步非常的多"},{"start":4022.429,"end":4047.38,"text":"第二其實經過30年的討論我看過國建署的版本我在這邊非常的讚許國建署因為他們把世界各國缺點都沒有都改過了他們發現有些衝比較快的國家的確有缺點改掉了現在我們是用最嚴謹的方法在制定我們的人工生殖法我們看過很多國家經歷的事我們也知道哪些事要避免所以我們往"},{"start":4048.41,"end":4065.281,"text":"英國美國加拿大澳洲這些法國化非常嚴格的國家在學習這點必須要肯定那我也看了過去20到30年在這個今天這個場域有發言過的委員關於人工生殖法的發言"},{"start":4066.622,"end":4081.855,"text":"許多呢我在這邊必須要說從醫學專業來看畢竟這邊我們有很多都是學科學學醫學的人女權還有社會議題跟醫學是沒有辦法相互解釋的剛剛陳昭之委員提到的這個女權前輩他在這個場域曾經說過我們醫學專家難以置信的話他在這邊有一天咆哮說憑什麼50歲的女人不能捐卵啊"},{"start":4095.166,"end":4114.399,"text":"他居然講出這句話欸你認同嗎而且他對於這個胚胎的植入可屬也有他自己很獨特的看法那我覺得部長我先預告啦您等一下接續今天還有30幾個委員要問您可能會遇到一些砲火但是我們必須要根據國際最新的醫療期刊"},{"start":4116.24,"end":4128.029,"text":"國際最新的數據還有人工生殖的科技是像火箭式每年在增長的我們要用最新的科學數據告訴大家為什麼這些人工生殖法的修正草案是這樣一筆一筆的定出來的好嗎"},{"start":4131.974,"end":4134.377,"text":"這是一個台灣目前普世價值的問題所以部長您一定要堅持住好嗎?"},{"start":4152.197,"end":4170.705,"text":"我已經堅持到民眾的最大的權益還有當然少數民眾的需求我們一定要重視然後在法規在倫理在社會的共識沒有你也要相信你的國建署你的國建署已經花了很多的心思在做這個修正草案了非常多"},{"start":4172.284,"end":4197.856,"text":"對他們掌握得非常清楚部長剛好國際組署長也在這邊我要關心一下腹癌的議題因為最近這幾週呢有一位我們議員的前輩許議員因為子宮內膜癌過世所以我認為啦在環境荷爾蒙不斷的上升還有我們的飲食改變高靈化、三高、糖尿病等等還有很多不孕症的疾病其實已經讓我們的腹癌分布有改變了"},{"start":4198.476,"end":4224.766,"text":"因此我們其實腹癌的篩檢需要做一些調整這個您是專家家醫科醫師對不對所以之前其實您訂定的很好不管是抹片或是HPV的檢查或是HPV的疫苗你看關於子宮頸癌的死亡率跟發生率是大幅相較現在每年是1100個人好那為什麼呢我們子宮頸癌的這個申報成長率不會上升呢這個一定"},{"start":4225.894,"end":4226.054,"text":"好。好。"},{"start":4248.31,"end":4261.038,"text":"現在你發現其實你之前的政策不錯他不斷的在下降你的篩檢率也提高不了了結果你又灌了新的預算金去篩檢那我們來關心一下議員得到的這個子宮內母愛下一張欸這不能work"},{"start":4264.312,"end":4284.351,"text":"他是從過去1995年至今是提升10倍之多啦其中的環節其中的原因我們這個大家都是專家都知道啦肥胖啊三高啊糖尿病啊等等的所以你們不會想要在其他兩個卵巢癌跟子宮內膜癌增加他的篩檢方式嗎這篩檢方式很簡單欸"},{"start":4288.752,"end":4305.949,"text":"我們一直在嚴厲相關的是不是有篩檢的工具那也應該要有實證的醫學本席在這邊提一下子宮內膜癌它初期的症狀其實是不正常的出血但大部分的婦女並不會把它當一回事因為月經不正常是常常發生的嘛下一張"},{"start":4307.418,"end":4328.184,"text":"好我們來針對這些高風險的女性如果提供適當的篩檢其實很簡單就是一個陰道超音波就可以了陰道超音波大概只多花5到10分鐘他不僅是看子宮的構造連卵巢一起看所以你多一個篩檢你還可以預防兩個腹癌而且這些腹癌人數加起來是你的子宮頸來的4到5倍欸"},{"start":4335.169,"end":4349.876,"text":"好,我想感謝委員關心這個主題,那的確我們的癌症會隨著環境的整個變遷,會有不同的incidence的發生,那我想我們要以日俱增來"},{"start":4352.457,"end":4378.326,"text":"來對所有可能發生的癌症我們都能夠全面的來找到之後我再寫一個提案提供您一個很具體的做法這也是跟許多國會的專家、婦外的專家以及公衛的專家一起想出來的其實這個預算金額不會很高大概8到10億但是你針對全國50到75歲的女性大約快要430萬人這些人可以提供他們更多的保護好嗎"},{"start":4380.353,"end":4404.312,"text":"好再來因為剛剛有講到說女性有許多癌症不管是腹癌或是其他癌症都在不斷的上升所以其實我們對這些癌症病友也很關心他們希望未來成為媽媽的願望嘛但是呢現在各縣市很多地方也有提供動卵補助可是他動卵補助沒有比預期的申請率高大家知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":4407.725,"end":4435.306,"text":"沒關係部長我跟你講答案就是因為我們的人工生殖法還沒有修法也是其中的一個因素因為我們的女性有偶率已經來到10年來的新低這個署長一定知道48%的人是有偶的可是現在的人工生殖法如果你不去修正它的話它除非未來有找到對象不然它永遠沒有辦法使用自己的卵子OK嗎"},{"start":4436.673,"end":4436.813,"text":"好,下一張"},{"start":4453.135,"end":4480.031,"text":"這邊有講到說剛剛那個委員曾經也在這個場域啊講過說為什麼我們不植入5顆胚胎我在這邊也看到說國健署很細心在代孕的環節有規定代理孕母每一次只能植幾顆胚胎為限好這一點的話我希望當然大家很關心代理孕母也可以同樣把它援引到不管是同性伴侶或是單身女性這個部分"},{"start":4480.791,"end":4490.83,"text":"其實我們也可以根據現在人工生殖的技術發展還有懷孕的成功率我們逐項的訂定胚胎植入數的標準這一點可以做到嗎?"},{"start":4493.582,"end":4510.727,"text":"對,署長應該很了解因為署長自從推了試管嬰兒補助以後其實對我們國家的多胞胎率下降貢獻非常大對,但是現在只有零補助的人會被規定植入科宿沒有零補助的人他想有的人想"},{"start":4511.627,"end":4512.608,"text":"不好意思主席,抱歉"},{"start":4531.327,"end":4554.628,"text":"再來也是這幾天大家很關心的部長你應該知道一三年憲法判決第八號說如果這個精神科醫師在發現這個加害人有重大的精神心智缺陷不得執行死刑好我們看這個臉書他是一個火車刺警案的鑑定醫師他被大出征啊"},{"start":4555.814,"end":4574.122,"text":"他自從鑑定這個加害人有精神疾病以後他在網路上被出征他連基本的人身安全都沒有部長你也是醫生救人是醫生的天職你認為替死刑犯判定精神狀況是不是有違醫師的倫理"},{"start":4577.652,"end":4602.32,"text":"這可能針對整個社會的狀況以及現在醫學的發展那我想我們還是要請醫學會的專家我跟你說醫學會的專家世界精神醫學會在1996年馬德里宣言2023年日內瓦宣言都有講過說在任何情況下精神科醫師不應該執行死刑能力的鑑定第二"},{"start":4603.18,"end":4613.063,"text":"對於各種精神病患精神科醫師都應該積極協助法律上無法為自己有效防禦辯護不足足夠能力承擔法律責任的人"},{"start":4613.626,"end":4638.953,"text":"好現在呢他好好的在醫學系想說要成為這個精神科醫師心理科醫師只為了幫助社會卻變成全民公審的對象或者是頭號罪人這個判決下去以後精神科醫師如果他說他有問題有精神病不得執行死刑就變成頭號公題如果他說好他沒有精神病"},{"start":4640.253,"end":4667.145,"text":"他沒問題就違反當初的醫師誓言嗎?因為他就有可能會有執行實習的問題這一點你怎麼看?你是不是應該要出來為醫生講幾句話?我想我當醫學院的教授當了幾十年一定是堅守Hippocratic醫師誓言的那個教學但是醫師是不是對社會"},{"start":4668.168,"end":4669.249,"text":"現在全國有151間的醫療單位可以做司法的精神鑑定"},{"start":4686.992,"end":4711.249,"text":"我們在這個審判中保護兩兆的基本人權是天經地義的嘛不管是加害人或是被害人可是誰來保護這些提供精神鑑定的醫療人員這邊提供一些國外的做法給部長參考一下比如說在國外不管是加害人或被害人或是檢方或是法官雙方各自聘請不同的專家"},{"start":4712.21,"end":4716.933,"text":"比如說曾經這個刺殺雷根總統的案子請了四個鑑定專家還有挪威的大屠殺兩邊各請了兩個專家所以他們在反覆的辯證中論述也會不同這樣可以分擔鑑定人員的心理壓力所以在這邊可以請部長具體的承諾您可以在一個月內給本席答覆可以跟司法司法體系來溝通嗎"},{"start":4738.39,"end":4749.647,"text":"好,我想這個都我們一直在溝通,一直在溝通,所以一個月會提進度報告。好,主席,最後一題,最後一題,你先坐啦,你先坐啦,最後一題啦。"},{"start":4752.63,"end":4778.841,"text":"好既然我們現在的量能不足既然我們現在的量能不足部長本來小英總統說呢要投入400億來完善司法精神醫療服務目標2025年要做到480床結果現在只有30床你的達成率是6%那未來呢我們只會需要更多這樣子的機構你知不知道這些有多高的比例是反社會人格"},{"start":4781.351,"end":4782.495,"text":"包圍我們到這個月底會開到102床會繼續努力"},{"start":4787.011,"end":4811.141,"text":"好你距離480床還是很遙遠這邊有一個報告是你們自己做的我也這邊具體建議部長可以讀一下你們很明確的在全民心理健康任性計畫裡面提到60%收治的精神病患中有反社會人格所以這些人如果沒有在完整的司法精神體系內他出來只會越來越嚴重"},{"start":4812.435,"end":4829.761,"text":"好嗎?好,這個本期會繼續追下去。謝謝主席。謝謝主席。好,謝謝委員。謝謝,謝謝。謝謝陳委員。謝謝部長。我想請那個衛福部這邊人工生殖法再推一下。我想在這個會期把它組條,送出委員會。接續我們請廖偉強委員,質詢。"},{"start":4843.286,"end":4855.313,"text":"謝謝主席。有請我們部長。委員長。部長好。那我拿一下這個。"},{"start":4858.356,"end":4873.23,"text":"部長好這個為了要健保永續跟解決缺藥跟穩定藥品供應鏈很鼓勵國產保障國人的用藥安全的部分所以今年3月的時候我也曾經提出藥價調整的三原則的決議那也獲得了衛福部的同意那"},{"start":4873.951,"end":4887.891,"text":"建保署的共你會議也在8月15號就已經通過了但是這個案子到現在不僅沒有公告連預告也還沒開始想要請教部長為何遲遲沒有公布是背後有什麼力量干預嗎是總統府還是有什麼國策顧問嗎導致你還不簽"},{"start":4890.683,"end":4901.834,"text":"報告委員據我對這件事情的瞭解應該都是在做專業方面的程序並沒有我沒有感受到任何是那8月15通過這個共理會議請問什麼時候會公告共理會議以後這個"},{"start":4906.639,"end":4932.338,"text":"因為在會議的代表其實對本案也沒有反對意見對 那什麼時候遇到那個我們會並同全民健康保險藥品價格調整作為辦法部分修正部分調整的修正那這個部分大概是什麼時候已經199月30號報到衛福部我們將依程序進行法規命令預告公告事宜"},{"start":4933.399,"end":4952.818,"text":"所以部長大概什麼時候?對,大概。可不可以跟我講一個時間點?不是,我說要先預告啊。預告60天,所以我想我們應該很快就會預告。很快大概是什麼時候?可以跟我說嗎?"},{"start":4958.105,"end":4970.353,"text":"社保司有沒有那個依照這個如果已經報到衛福部然後社保司再整理一下因為我是希望一個月之內能夠"},{"start":4971.774,"end":4987.047,"text":"1個月之內會預告?1個月之內會預告那再來部長國內的復康巴士供不應求預約困難喔那也有許多身心障礙或是有長照需求的長輩跟朋友常常跟我們反映其實我們在地方非常感謝有各種的那種團體會捐贈復康巴士"},{"start":4989.389,"end":5018.921,"text":"但是我發現這扶植車的售價還蠻貴的不過還好有貨物稅的這個條例對於扶植車是有免稅的規定但部長你知道這個免稅規定即將到今年底到期嗎所以我也將提出這貨物稅條例第12條修正草案延長扶植車的免稅年限那我也算過因為這個有三大好處第一個扶植車可能增加讓民間捐贈的這個意願也會好一點再來就是駕駛人增加以及最重要就是我們身心障礙朋友跟"},{"start":5019.421,"end":5020.122,"text":"拜託部長來努力一下。"},{"start":5044.022,"end":5072.761,"text":"再來部長4月份調漲電價錢其實我也曾經抨擊過說調整前沒有完全的評估後來前行政院長陳建仁才說中央政府還要仔細盤點然後我們也要求動漲醫院的電價決議最後也才做出地區醫院動漲的決議那請教部長10月這個電價調漲這件事情已經議論了好幾個月那你520上任前衛福部有沒有主動找經濟部或者是經濟部有沒有找衛福部討論調漲電價這件事情"},{"start":5075.407,"end":5084.174,"text":"我想這個溝通一直在持續,因為醫療...所以您覺得有一直在持續?所以有嘛對不對?這個溝通一直在持續這過程中都有討論對不對?"},{"start":5087.694,"end":5108.626,"text":"那如果都有討論的話我想要請問為什麼還會出現所謂的菸草這個銷售零售業動漲然後菸草製造業減半但是醫院卻要全額調漲荒謬情形然後最後才被批評為健康台灣淪為菸草台灣最後才說要動漲所以我想要請教這個你們真的有評估過這個調漲電價對醫療體系的影響嗎"},{"start":5111.587,"end":5115.49,"text":"對部長我這些都知道我想要問你的就是說你有沒有主動去協調你有沒有主動去說哪些"},{"start":5131.44,"end":5134.462,"text":"這是一個審議會啦那這個審議會大概沒有衛福部的代表在裡面這是一回事喔但是你有沒有去跟他們的人溝通過吧"},{"start":5147.29,"end":5162.329,"text":"因為你剛剛有說中間一直有在協調啊你中間都有說嘛你不是說一直在協調好沒關係部長這裡我想要請你就是真的要為就是在衛福部的這個角色裡面也是可以去跟他們協調說哪些東西你認為應該"},{"start":5163.931,"end":5164.932,"text":"是﹖反應"},{"start":5181.76,"end":5204.307,"text":"對,所以我現在就是要拜託部長這件事因為我還要跟你反映一件事情就是這波調漲電價的過程我國的製藥產業又被遺漏了那部長我們現在不是都在強調藥品的供應鏈穩定嗎那什麼關鍵時刻的時候就他們就遺漏了其實主要我要講的是製藥業跟這個藥局但因為最終受到影響的也是人民我等一下給你看喔"},{"start":5205.407,"end":5229.915,"text":"部長一個國產的健保藥當然不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無"},{"start":5232.377,"end":5255.471,"text":"這10%的售價那這10%是電力漲價所致而不是調漲原物料物品在有限時間內要從等於是他們說價格要乘以1.1那就是說藥品要漲價的意思所以我想要跟你說的就是說這是我們接獲的陳情那這是基層藥局也告知就基層的藥商通知基層藥局社區藥局的從10月1號開始要這樣子漲價所以我覺得這是一個連帶性的關係"},{"start":5260.194,"end":5286.606,"text":"好所以你們漲價不是所謂說0.03%的CPI衝擊而已其實這個連一般的人民的用藥連社區藥局的藥品都在漲啊而且還電這個壓力也轉嫁到我們基層藥局所以我要為他們發聲喔他們社區藥局在新冠疫情期間幫我們發口罩對不對然後用快篩那也是社區的第一道防線我覺得當時幸好有全國的藥師幫忙才可以讓這個疫情有得到控制就這兩次調漲電價請問有哪一"},{"start":5288.747,"end":5292.614,"text":"哪一個衛福部的官員去替他們爭取說免漲或動漲電價"},{"start":5295.117,"end":5319.247,"text":"因為相關的醫療醫事院手其實機構也蠻多的所以我也希望說如果各個醫事機構在覺得說這樣的調漲對人民是不好的是那個都不用客氣都可以跟衛福部來反映所以部長我現在就是在跟你反映我們每次都稱讚社區藥局有多幫忙當需要他們幫忙的時候就叫他們去發口罩叫他們發快篩"},{"start":5319.667,"end":5344.616,"text":" ︎"},{"start":5344.976,"end":5370.735,"text":"但是它最終可能都反映到人民的身上用要人的身上所以我要請部長你是不是可以在因為10月16號新店駕才會上路喔這段時間你是不是可以立即去跟經濟部反映因為它還是有幾個原則審議會還是有原則如果能夠相關的單位比如說社區要求這一邊如果覺得沒有當初煙草那個事情一出來新聞一燒馬上就公佈了因為它是按照比如說為什麼有幾個例子像"},{"start":5371.275,"end":5373.256,"text":"我是覺得相關的單位能夠提出他的一個理由跟訴求我們比較好去反映"},{"start":5394.145,"end":5394.165,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":5418.318,"end":5439.598,"text":"對藥品乘以1.1也是蠻可怕的每個漲10%其實一般用藥人也是很有感當然當然那另外還有一個問題就是你們疾管署死不認錯部長今年5月2號上任的時候和陳昭之委員也共同開了一場記者會內容是高等行政法院針對新冠疫苗救濟案件"},{"start":5440.279,"end":5454.655,"text":"判決衛福部敗訴那敗訴理由中羅列各項缺失相關的審查會議應錄音並且保存但是是沒有但疾管署始終不願意去面對法官的指證去做改進"},{"start":5455.436,"end":5469.414,"text":"那這個案子後來家屬跟律師又向賴總統陳情總統府很快的回應說希望機關署保存開會錄音並公佈所有參考的文獻等等那請衛福部著處敬賦並複製總統府但是貴部卻回文說"},{"start":5476.449,"end":5491.87,"text":"是否保存開會過程錄音或公佈參考文獻片名並無外其審議結果之正確性及釋法性?部長,總統府都下了公文請問部長為什麼不能公開不能公開理由是什麼?他也要你們公開為什麼要繼續黑箱?"},{"start":5492.29,"end":5494.011,"text":"2小時審完90件案件,平均一個案件才80秒。"},{"start":5518.101,"end":5533.96,"text":"甚至有多次會議審議下來平均不到80秒一個人命這樣走了然後你們說很專業審議然後建保署的共理會議不僅在網站上有公開所有完整會議記錄連錄音檔都有可是為什麼這個簡單的公開透明集管署做不到"},{"start":5535.031,"end":5560.653,"text":"而且你們所謂的專家喔憑良心講啊之前都有資料啊專家很多根本就沒有參與多久啊所謂專家會議他在裡面待的時間非常的短最後只剩下少部分人品啊所以部長我想喔我真的要強烈的指責你們衛福部跟機關署如果連這麼基本的公開透明都做不到如何取信人民你要想這些受害者當初他等於是冒著他的生命危險去打了這個為了"},{"start":5562.034,"end":5565.096,"text":"我們對於民眾因為不管因為什麼原因受傷或死亡我們真的是非常非常的難過跟遺憾"},{"start":5589.153,"end":5594.615,"text":"不是部長你不能打太急啊,你要回去好好審視這件事情可以嗎?部長我真的不希望你們再持續的所謂的這種黑箱啊,然後就是做一套做一套喔"},{"start":5610.08,"end":5631.196,"text":"我這些家屬很可憐啊我自己也有身邊也有好朋友他是年輕人絕對不會做黑箱任何黑箱作業但是如果他不能公告的委員譬如說名單啊或者是他的記錄這個部分我們去了解能公開的我們盡量公開而且你們其實那個案件到現在還在上訴還不想要不想要理賠啊"},{"start":5632.421,"end":5660.576,"text":"沒有,那也不是不想理會,也不是像報紙講的說我們去請三個律師啦,我是說我們去委託一個一個事務,事務所,事務所裡面有很多醫生的沒有,那很多就是事務的嘛所以不是說請很多律師啦部長這件事情不要再辯解我覺得你們真的回去好好的用心面對,你們這樣子再搞下去未來也沒有人敢這個參與所謂的工為了大家全社會的公衛然後還要去打這個疫苗欸這些人這樣子過世了,就國家"},{"start":5661.616,"end":5683.535,"text":"好,我們一定用最專業、最公正的立場來處理這些事情,請放心。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝,謝謝委員。應該是用補償的心態啦,放寬放寬啦,不然就要這個是以後你要做這種緊急疫苗可能會出問題,沒有人敢。好,謝謝廖委員,謝謝部長。接下來我們請盧縣議委員質詢。"},{"start":5694.723,"end":5722.902,"text":"有請部長部長好放假期間我有去了復興區復興區是我們最靠近我們都會區的一個原鄉復興區還有烏蘭那為什麼會提到復興呢因為我去復興的時候大概看一下這個地理環境雖然很靠近桃園或者是新北不過它的比較後段的部分是靠近宜蘭"},{"start":5723.709,"end":5747.92,"text":"那你知道復興區有多少個部落嗎?部長?我不知道58個部落那58個部落它分布在這麼遼闊的地方像衛生所的大概所在位置就比較靠近我們那個大溪的地方就是比較靠近平地的地方所以所有族人的依賴的一個醫療的環境就是在所謂的衛生所大概原鄉也都是這樣是"},{"start":5748.82,"end":5772.461,"text":"那我去了那邊以後他他跟我提說如果我們想要生小孩要做產檢的話勢必要大概要包車一兩個小時以後才到才到市區那他就希望說我們整個我家的那個ids的計畫常常就是需要的科別沒有希望有的科別他就說可能就在研究那永遠都是在這樣的一個"},{"start":5773.882,"end":5789.462,"text":"﹗"},{"start":5789.822,"end":5793.126,"text":"現在的IDS是哪一個醫院在的?父親相似哪一個?"},{"start":5815.729,"end":5834.268,"text":"長庚我想我們來跟長庚醫院協調那我一直說不是只有復興區全國的原住民地區應該都是這樣像我之前在的地方也沒有復長庚醫室來當然因為我在的地方比較近我是在村院比較靠近訪聊那我們要盤點的是這些比較遠的地方像復興區阿里山鄉"},{"start":5835.009,"end":5835.91,"text":"包委員,因為我當過衛生所主任"},{"start":5863.597,"end":5872.16,"text":"當時我去臺北縣青山鄉的時候沒有任何醫師我非常了解到對生所很需要加強戰備因為他在尤其在偏遠地區他就是負擔醫療的責任"},{"start":5881.963,"end":5905.557,"text":"那所以當然有兩個方法,一個是說在IDS就是想要縮短這個偏鄉跟都市的差距那怎麼樣充分來提供資源,我想這個一定要努力第二個應該要信任更多的可以做全科的醫師去做更多的事情,包括從健康因為你完全要靠"},{"start":5907.229,"end":5910.931,"text":"接下來就是我去了台東京豐因為這段期間裡面剛好是中秋節以後那已經快一個月了"},{"start":5936.305,"end":5961.101,"text":" ️"},{"start":5961.201,"end":5988.654,"text":"可能就當作是一般的疾病處理就開了一個移種診斷所以大家回去報請相驗好回到家了以後原住民的習慣就是要去衛生剛好是中秋節晚上大家都回來了全部左鄰右舍鄰近的族人都過來剩下的到最後已經超過晚上12點以後大家可能都12了想要熱點東西又煮了他之前吃的這些東西所以才會造成一連串所以"},{"start":5989.774,"end":6010.283,"text":"當然這些已經進入司法調查我們就不講我們要我們要省事的是什麼就是這個第一件事事情發生的時候為什麼沒有辦法在急診室足夠的來去想像他是不是中毒事件是非常困難嗎因為我有問過急診醫師急診室的醫生說他是其實他的味道其實是不是那麼好聞"},{"start":6011.563,"end":6038.059,"text":"雖然它是無色的可是它在包裝上面有點像是我們的紅藜然後後來它的味道吃起來應該是有一些味道而且送到醫院它的那些anti cholinergic的那些side effect不是很明顯嗎就是那些我們知道的醫療的醫學的術語那這些難道在它的在history上面或是在它的編列上面沒有沒有記載這些東西嗎你們是不是要去看一下"},{"start":6038.699,"end":6048.125,"text":"不然現在鄉親已經要組成自救會因為他們投宿無門求償無門也沒有人可以賠償他們這些生命的損失你不覺得非常的可憐嗎"},{"start":6050.501,"end":6077.443,"text":"是,我們真的是為這件事情也感到非常的遺憾跟難過啦齁,那我記得,如果是我們這種年齡啦,像我跟蘇朝偉這種年齡齁,在接近的時候齁,只要有那個人,有有有,是農民啦齁,然後好像中毒的趕快,我們就趕快戴兩層殼,那個手套啦,不然那個巴拉圭那個不是開玩笑的齁,那所以是不是說我們"},{"start":6078.484,"end":6096.881,"text":"或花生的比例越來越少之下,急診的醫師在這個部分的防患性稍微需要再加強。這個我覺得我們要整體系統性的來講。球場的部分,我想我們會相關的部會一定要給最大的支持,尤其在社工這個部分。"},{"start":6103.928,"end":6130.141,"text":"我們看一下他們的事情發生的地方在賓茂我們看一下相對位置京豐鄉是大概在台東的稍微南方一點再過去到馬街的話要42分鐘左右這是一般開車可是那天晚上發生的時候應該是十幾個人要送急診室嘛所以急診室的那些我們關掉救護車也不夠所以很多都是用私家車送的因為有"},{"start":6131.622,"end":6132.743,"text":"我們在屏東我們有兩個鄉是24小時營業的就是霧台鄉跟"},{"start":6158.044,"end":6160.425,"text":"那個時間點根本就找不到人"},{"start":6187.239,"end":6199.138,"text":"所以你只能就是天天由命那你說你要發展花棟的觀光這些都沒有的話你要怎麼去發展一個救命的東西都沒有"},{"start":6200.779,"end":6217.823,"text":"你可以體會那個晚上,那天晚上所有的族人擔心跟焦急的那種狀況嗎?他們是用自己的車子載,尤其是明天要出殯的後,高增制的我們全國國大代表的夫人是明天要出殯,禮拜六要出殯,他是最後一個死亡,第4件。"},{"start":6218.623,"end":6219.304,"text":"已是腦死的已經是缺氧的狀態了"},{"start":6237.731,"end":6263.334,"text":"所以才為什麼到現在是就就是包括我們政府其實一直在推展從幾十年前到最近幾年更是更多的來經會來投入強化偏鄉的醫療是目前我看到的急救站如果實際上有一個狀況這樣子的話我們應該看怎麼樣來改善是啊你至少每10公里每20公里是不是一個急救站現在是只有大午嘛大午衛生所嘛"},{"start":6264.194,"end":6283.027,"text":"對啊這到衛生所以北一直到一直到台東市大概還有一個多小時的距離哦啊你不要講跟裡面的部落所以要加強衛生所的醫療是急救能力嗯比如說我我在我帶過學台大醫學院的學生到萬山鄉的上面的部落嗯"},{"start":6283.487,"end":6303.946,"text":"那個時候我們就發現那個地方衛生所是需要一些蛇毒血清的,因為常常,所以我們就加強,那個冰箱一定要冰凉。我們再看一下家屬的心聲,他們打電話跟我說,就是說就是剛才我講的一般死亡案件處理,然後就待會兒就報請下院,就很像這件事情就結束了。"},{"start":6304.386,"end":6331.096,"text":"第二個就是說就是他們認為如果這個第一個是重頭的話後面這12個人就不會不信好最後一個我在去納瑪夏的時候納瑪夏跟我說納瑪夏衛生所以前是在部落的最前面就是民主民權民生最前面在民主八八風災以後衛生所不見了結果重建了以後好不容易重建這麼漂亮的衛生所它的位置在哪裡你知道嗎在部落的上面的非常上面"},{"start":6332.688,"end":6344.684,"text":"﹗"},{"start":6345.094,"end":6375.094,"text":" ️﹏"},{"start":6375.247,"end":6393.746,"text":" ︎"},{"start":6393.766,"end":6394.526,"text":"接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"},{"start":6419.571,"end":6420.512,"text":"安太醫院發生火警"},{"start":6442.386,"end":6442.646,"text":"我們先看第一張照片"},{"start":6470.06,"end":6475.784,"text":"這一張照片看起來讓我們覺得不可思議因為起火點是在前面這一棟機殿"},{"start":6477.848,"end":6499.763,"text":"但是死的是在後面不同棟這對醫院安全來講他不是火災燒死他是濃煙嗆死了這不要講醫院安全連公共安全這樣子的這樣的結果這樣的悲劇都是不應該發生的更何況是醫院或是護理之家"},{"start":6501.184,"end":6507.53,"text":"這個防火區劃是基本的配備怎麼會是這樣子的發生不同洞還濃煙嗆死嗆到隔壁洞"},{"start":6512.194,"end":6537.575,"text":"這現在在2024年的現在如果你說發生在1990幾年大家都還沒有法規都還可以覺得有可能可是2024年的醫院安全的票配備不應該是這樣法律上規定也不是這樣子所以呢甚至是在加護病房可能這個死亡了4個人就是加護病房"},{"start":6539.373,"end":6553.466,"text":"這個交互病房的病人怎麼逃啊交互病房的病人根本不可能逃所以這個事發到現在已經將近一個禮拜了你認為造成醫療院所這麼重大傷亡的原因或是你初步了解是什麼"},{"start":6555.123,"end":6569.296,"text":"馬委員我想火災發生的火場鑑定這個要由專家來鑑定那接下來檢調也已經去了解已經去調查了那檢調會根據現在這樣說跟衛福部都沒關係嗎可能衛福部"},{"start":6571.758,"end":6572.979,"text":"我先把順序講一下那個衛生局會做行政的調查"},{"start":6591.027,"end":6605.852,"text":"我現在問你啦10月4號東森獨家新聞說安泰醫院的評鑑今年年底到期8月底才剛進行下一階段的評鑑但是去評鑑的衛福部的中央主管機關已經發現有什麼問題了結果已經被醫策會委員提出檢討改進了"},{"start":6611.534,"end":6623.637,"text":"但是呢,醫策委從8月底他知道這個問題有嚴重的公共安全問題到發生之間沒有作為。而我現在問你,他到底是說他有什麼問題?部長你知道嗎?你知道嗎?你的醫策委去評過,8月就去評過安泰醫院,如果這個新聞沒有講錯的話,來你說,到底是發生什麼問題?當時就看到了。"},{"start":6639.05,"end":6666.776,"text":"當時的那個委員有提醒的部分不曉得那個這篇補充一下那個委員那邊委員那邊是有補充意見就是那個這家可能要就是他的那個一些因為他的那個有一些那個人員疏散部分經營他們還是要有一些具體的那個"},{"start":6667.503,"end":6670.204,"text":"人員疏散而已嗎?所以你們第一個你們證實了的確在8月就是有進場去評鑑第二個你們也證實了評鑑的時候就看到有管線老舊和疏散動線等病安的部分好你們都看當時就看到但從8月到發生火災的10月3號之間我要問你們你們有要求醫療院所應立即改善嗎?"},{"start":6697.935,"end":6705.781,"text":"有沒有要求他們做我應立即改善什麼你都沒有要求結果到10月3號就發生這樣欸人命欸八條人命欸蛤有沒有要求他們做什麼所以今天不是只有說消防局去調查火災原因事故第二這都事後的事情了我現在講事發以前已經看到了我們要求他們做了什麼呢"},{"start":6727.086,"end":6747.354,"text":"來,請那個護士跟委員報告一下在醫院評鑑實地作業的時候他會用各項目去做查核那實際上進行的時候在查核項目現場當天沒有特別提出不合合的項目但委員通常就會就品質面求好心切會有一些建議意見並且在與"},{"start":6749.275,"end":6776.14,"text":"品質面求好心切聽好所以管線老舊跟疏散動線等病安問題是求好心切的標準照你的講法這種話你講得出口嗎保定你來講要求管線老舊和疏散動線這個問題是我們醫策會這個建議的意見是吹毛求癡求好心切還是應該是標配"},{"start":6779.059,"end":6787.568,"text":"因為評鑑有評鑑的標準項目嘛齁那這個大概評鑑 評鑑的標準項目才是大問題勒那我現在問你說管線老舊速戰動線有問題這種東西是標配還是選配就好了"},{"start":6799.788,"end":6811.963,"text":"這當然從那個病人的安全方面我們一定要做到但是在醫院的評鑑裡面他有一定的經過多少年多少專家你不要再說這種五四三的都沒有重點你看這張圖會比較會流產的這種"},{"start":6819.071,"end":6847.606,"text":"配電式起火的濃煙讓隔壁棟的5樓、10樓、11樓這樣子傷亡不要忘了我們啊這個新營醫院的北門分院還有新北市台北醫院的護理之家這個都死亡多少人呢這重大傷亡我們都知道醫院護理之家裡面你叫這些病人情何以堪啊在家戶病房的人他們怎麼逃生啊"},{"start":6848.741,"end":6850.682,"text":"而且內湖的私人養護所死3個2018年台北護理自家死了10幾個"},{"start":6866.849,"end":6882.856,"text":"當時消防署就推動了修法不論新建或變更的長照機構都要配備自動灑水設備火警自動報警裝備以及設置119火災通報裝置但是我請問你部長醫院有沒有在其中他講的是護理之家長照機構請問醫院當時為什麼排除在外"},{"start":6891.657,"end":6913.355,"text":"為什麼醫院不再強制配置自動灑水設備、火警、自動警報設備的範圍呢?醫院不需要嗎?醫院這些加護病房的人可以自動逃生嗎?為什麼他們不需要這些裝置、基本配備、必要的配備來保護這些看病的人?"},{"start":6915.402,"end":6929.438,"text":"欸 你們的次長有講過一句話喔林基尼次長說由於這次事故造成重大傷亡很多人擔心醫院安全欸對此感到疑慮你們的次長都這樣子講了可是"},{"start":6930.379,"end":6948.071,"text":"出一句詞沒好捏有黨我媽想吼啟動這個醫癒法的第35條什麼法醫療在衛生部我現在要講的是消防法捏那跟委員報告一下當天如果在評鑑的時候其實消防局他們提出來的在"},{"start":6949.251,"end":6950.433,"text":"為什麼當時的衛福部認為醫院不需要?你告訴我。"},{"start":6977.327,"end":7000.078,"text":"好那這樣子好了安泰是發生這個事情因為當時發生火車是護理之家所以特別負責當時發生護理之家然後都沒有想到醫院這就是現在的衛福部的能力喔專業喔老湖機構跟那個我現在當時你們就沒有專業不專業只想到護理之家沒想到醫院那現在你認為醫院醫院已經有一個非常說實在已經有一個非常好的一個評鑑"},{"start":7001.538,"end":7010.906,"text":"醫院有非常好的評鑑,好,那我問你,你就安泰醫院再重新評鑑一次,你覺不覺得他們會通過你們的評鑑?通過評鑑是,要那個,整個實際上在審理。你不要在這裡喔,都沒專業啦,保證。您這個,或者那個,醫生會。"},{"start":7028.512,"end":7039.766,"text":"醫師師副師長醫師師副師長來醫學中心就診民眾的命是命區域醫院第7醫院的人命不是命安泰中心是區域醫院我為什麼講這一句話因為呢"},{"start":7042.489,"end":7046.511,"text":"我們醫學中心的評鑑當然標準都比區域醫院還要高可是就區域醫院你們的醫院評鑑基準及評量項目的第一篇經營管理第1.7章風險和危機管理中的1.7.4的項目醫院應指定專責人員研擬火災的減災預防和準備措施評量項目為我光起來我們看6789點"},{"start":7070.944,"end":7085.534,"text":"就是醫院應該設有防火管理人等等6789就是說因依診療環境建築病人及第一線應變人員特色規劃符合所需的檢災預防準備設施第6第7點病人不亦疏散以採取就地避難的診療部門"},{"start":7091.218,"end":7106.254,"text":"然後具有適當的防火區劃及病人持續的照顧的備援計畫然後每年定期檢查火災災害的檢災預防和等等這樣子這些以上的評鑑都很棒很棒但是備註不要看備註第一點"},{"start":7107.557,"end":7114.381,"text":"本條為視頻條文,評鑑結果不納入評鑑成績計算。請問不納入評鑑成績計算的評鑑,這樣子的安泰醫院這些項目評鑑不合格會納入計算嗎?不會。我跟你講,不會。"},{"start":7131.798,"end":7150.011,"text":"所以如果安泰醫院在評估說他們有沒有減災預防準備措施然後他們的不易疏散就地避難的這個計畫提的不好如果說他們這一些通通都沒有改善的成效沒有提出來都沒關係因為這個叫做視頻"},{"start":7154.855,"end":7173.285,"text":" ️"},{"start":7173.725,"end":7190.177,"text":"換個角度這些在醫學中心的評鑑是重點喔是重點條文喔可是呢省市你們現在的那個全部在區域醫院地區醫院這個是試評保定試評安太醫院再去評還是一樣沒有關係"},{"start":7193.492,"end":7217.296,"text":"所以難怪你們副司長說這個是求好心切因為評鑑沒有管到這麼多這個視頻不納入成績若你要求這個地方要做到好你如果要求這幾點要做到好就是你副司長講的叫求好心切站在病人站在這些死亡的病患的家屬的立場情何以堪"},{"start":7220.257,"end":7224.607,"text":"本因安內地區醫院區醫院這樣子可以嗎保電"},{"start":7226.937,"end":7236.139,"text":"當然我們病人的生命我們都要完全的珍惜那你不要說這種口號啦我現在要問你說啊好你有沒有掌握目前還有公安問題的醫院還有哪一些?還有幾家?你不要再說喔剛好七個還發生一件問題欸不要忘了一個颱風來兩家醫院起火欸"},{"start":7252.301,"end":7259.104,"text":"因為這些經驗我們一定會深切地去檢討整個...我現在不是要問你這個問題答非所問來浪費我們的時間部長依社會網站來講106到112年合格醫院名單有417家那醫院評鑑校期在今年年底要到的有117家"},{"start":7274.051,"end":7288.337,"text":"所以呢,所有四分之一的家庶的平建都在年底要到期。你有沒有掌握到這117家要到期要平建的,有哪些跟安泰醫院一樣管線老舊、疏散動線還有病安的狀況有問題的?你們現在有沒有掌握啦?還是要等平建放房錢啊,放著等醫院出事燒起來?"},{"start":7298.98,"end":7319.689,"text":"還是說這消防署的問題跟你們無關?你們根本就是這樣的態度啊所以衛福部都不用監督不用輔導責任病患的生命安全在你們官員裡面都是評鑑後醫院該負的責任嗎?都跟政府無關是醫院的責任而已嗎?如果只是醫院的責任的話那我們評鑑是算什麼?"},{"start":7321.513,"end":7337.043,"text":"而醫院評鑑的翻修制度,醫院評鑑的這個問題標準已經多久沒有改了?我現在問你,請你回答我第一個問題,還有哪幾家醫院,初步看起來真的還有問題的?"},{"start":7339.025,"end":7339.385,"text":"當然也是要..."},{"start":7363.3,"end":7387.699,"text":"你們醫院評鑑尤其醫學中心評鑑的重點就是醫院的公共安全了怎麼會說是消防局的消防署的問題?醫院的公共安全都是重點啦只是說他要求的一個要求當然是最安全的情況但是所以你的意思是說災災跟你衛福部不關的消息幾個人跟衛福部也不關的都消防署會怕嗎?不不不 我明天要講就是說層層來"},{"start":7390.421,"end":7393.123,"text":"整層推卸啦!我現在是要問你,現在還有幾件病,它有類似的問題?啊你回答不出來說這都主要主責是消防署"},{"start":7403.325,"end":7405.547,"text":"你們的醫院評鑑標準已經多久沒改了?"},{"start":7428.903,"end":7433.509,"text":"這一輪是到112要啟動下一輪的調整你們的副司長"},{"start":7437.077,"end":7457.928,"text":"現在怎麼樣?你講一下醫院的評鑑標準多久沒改了?是,跟委員報告一下,我們的醫院評鑑標準一次用一輪是4年,然後我們都每年當中會...我沒在問你要評鑑的這個周期多久啦。已經要啟動這個下一輪的評鑑計畫。我現在問你說你的評鑑標準"},{"start":7460.309,"end":7461.25,"text":"這句我了解一定都有改"},{"start":7481.424,"end":7490.935,"text":"對那當時王碧正次長也講說他兩年內要訂出初稿要進行視頻三年後要下一次醫院評鑑請問這個這個標準項目會改變那個他們離開以後這個評鑑基準的調整他的翻修進度現在到哪裡了"},{"start":7501.283,"end":7502.924,"text":"我們還是補充一下第一個我們已經籌組好這個改革的小組"},{"start":7521.954,"end":7524.775,"text":"那這一次發生兩起醫院火災事件後,你們覺得醫院平建還有哪些地方可以再調整?"},{"start":7551.499,"end":7551.619,"text":"醫療機構的緊急應變手冊"},{"start":7578.873,"end":7601.913,"text":"應該要考慮復合式災難的情境火災加颱風而且要做實際的演練在一次颱風天你在疏散的時候你一般室內火災疏散戶外的空曠處可是今天洪災來你要疏散到哪裡去啊只能在走廊一樓的戶外的空曠處不可得你就只能在急診室門口的走廊"},{"start":7605.215,"end":7627.462,"text":"緊急救災消防警消的這些救災要進行還要一邊救治病患還要應對家屬詢問還要面對強風驟雨對病患的影響所以這種複合式災難到底應該要怎麼樣這種情境都要各種情境的scenario的analysis都必須要放進去"},{"start":7628.442,"end":7646.102,"text":"對不對?你們的評鑑在這種狀況裡面是不是要要求加強演練這種東西?那有沒有互併比的問題啊?互併比現在在醫學中心都還比條件都還比區域醫院還要好。區域醫院是不是因為人力太少了互併比不足啦?或是交班時間啊?"},{"start":7647.483,"end":7649.284,"text":"再來最重要的是本來剛才那一張防火區劃跟消防排煙系統問題失去功能"},{"start":7670.107,"end":7690.158,"text":"剛才第一張啊,垂直防煙區,防煙區化如果你做得好的話,它不應該往上串,不應該,它鎖在二樓。如果水平的防煙區化做得好,它只在機房,也不會跑到隔壁棟。所以這個東西防火區外沒有施作,或施作後被破壞。"},{"start":7691.502,"end":7715.472,"text":"在這種狀況裡面排煙系統也沒有發揮功能這個就是你們建在區域醫院跟地區醫院評鑑裡面要納入重點的怎麼可能這裡一個都不能夠死死怎麼死了八個一個也不行你們的評鑑要不要納入機電設備的檢查保養是不是應該要怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":7717.486,"end":7735.756,"text":"所以這些評鑑的基準不論在翻修新增你要加入複合式災難的SOP的檢栽、預防和準備都是有其必要性的所以我們講說啊寶定你都沒有在想像業務單位各司也沒有在想"},{"start":7736.616,"end":7737.617,"text":"如果醫院發生火災,電梯要不要切斷電源?"},{"start":7765.464,"end":7782.747,"text":"要不要切這一次切斷了全部的電源切斷切斷了全部的電源我告訴你那高樓層的這一些家務病房的人每個人要被推著病床他要怎麼疏散家務病床死了4個啊啊你不切斷也不行啊啊那要怎麼辦"},{"start":7794.804,"end":7813.507,"text":" ︎"},{"start":7814.319,"end":7841.48,"text":"報告委員那個機種廠是剛好在屋頂對啊所以我跟你講中央主管機關和各個院所要進行我剛剛講 scenario 的 analysis針對各家醫院不同的地理條件醫院特色樓層分配收治病人的行動力的特色各類災害的影響所以不是我加了一個消防署網站下載一個消防防護計畫案例交差了你就通過了"},{"start":7843.442,"end":7854.488,"text":"這個才是重點復合式災害發生者SOP還有細緻的討論我們醫院跟其他醫院不一樣到時候是要切斷電源還是不切斷電源所以這個災難我們要痛定思痛中央主管機關還能夠有什麼作為我們的角色還能夠積極做什麼在復合式災難極端氣候跟電力風險都要納入考量"},{"start":7870.297,"end":7897.369,"text":"護理人力流動率大他的日常演練或訓練應變能力不足的時候都要怎麼辦這是你怎麼做補助的人去收課不是都要立委自己教的嘛所以在這裡我們真的是希望我抱歉我不是針對安泰醫院這一家安泰醫院是剛好發生這麼不幸但很多制度面還有醫院的個案面都值得拿出來討論的"},{"start":7898.89,"end":7921.565,"text":"我再說一次,我們做一個立委,我不是要找這個醫院的麻煩,我們希望中央的責任要扛起來。我不談這個問題,我們就太偽善、太鄉怨了。部長你要回去好好檢討啦。好,謝謝委員的指教。我想我們一定痛定思痛,從各方面來尋求最大的改善,以給病人最大的安全。"},{"start":7923.688,"end":7939.155,"text":"謝謝林委員謝謝部長這裡報告王毅林委員花園完畢我們休息10分鐘那我們中午不休息等一下等到我花園的時候我再補充一下謝謝再來請邱政軍委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請邱部長"},{"start":7961.96,"end":7987.426,"text":"部長我們民眾的生老病史在這個醫院的手裡那我現在看到醫院的生死在衛福部的手上上個會期你在這邊承諾健保點值要到0.95本來是可以慢慢這個接近我們賴總統的競選支票那麼但現在我這一次看我們的預算沒編滿那肯定會跳票部長你怎麼看"},{"start":7990.168,"end":7997.439,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那個現在是這樣,那個我們"},{"start":7999.468,"end":8021.448,"text":"在113年兩個部分一個是成長率的問題成長率這個才是真正意見拿到手上的我們是有史以來健保總額成長率最高5.5過去都大概是4點多所以在這個部分就增加了大概531億其實是注入到健保"},{"start":8022.108,"end":8038.554,"text":"那另外在行政院也挹注到336億的健保協助方案那這其中所以這些錢是用在哪裡這些錢都是都是可以讓那個其實我只問啦我只問說健保點值會到0.95嗎"},{"start":8040.134,"end":8043.836,"text":"但是你們的預算都沒有編滿啊,那你要叫其他醫院去怎麼做這些事情啊?對不對?"},{"start":8066.061,"end":8080.492,"text":"因為我們的高低估已經增加了500多億嘛,所以這個部分對於點子會有很大的幫助。問題是你沒有編滿,你要叫醫院怎麼去做?因為我們本來...你要怎麼樣讓他去跟我們的醫護人員來訂這個標準?"},{"start":8084.099,"end":8110.564,"text":"其實我們要增加點值,最重要的一個目的就是希望改善工作環境,讓醫院也好好...我知道啦,你們很會玩這個數字遊戲,但經營醫院的人也不會笨啦,所以我想說不要大家在玩這個遊戲,那最後倒楣的就是我們的民眾嘛,對不對?你現在你知道現在我們的醫護比是多少嗎?"},{"start":8112.607,"end":8119.609,"text":"我那天問院長,院長倒也沒有承諾啦。那我想說院長,你講有,院長說沒有。因為是這樣子啦,因為院長他很用"},{"start":8136.373,"end":8138.755,"text":"現在講現況就好,這個講那個講得太多了齁。"},{"start":8159.329,"end":8173.445,"text":"因為我們現在醫學大中心的大夜班護病比是67.8沒達標區醫院是51.22沒有達標大小夜班都沒有達標現在這樣看起來是不是我們醫護人員不夠護理人員"},{"start":8179.847,"end":8202.565,"text":"護理人員其實怎麼樣留住我們的訓練出來的護理人員是夠的怎麼樣讓他留日難道提供一個工作好的條件就是福利不好嘛 那個錢不夠所以這個部分所以大家住不住所以我們有12個策略從人才的培育從工作的環境從工作的待遇這個一直在努力請不用一等時間我們一定會改善"},{"start":8205.708,"end":8223.746,"text":" ︎"},{"start":8223.866,"end":8246.287,"text":"然後我們只要數字達標的就好。單位護理長就拿這個單位的護理長來講,他沒有實際照顧這個病患,可是他也可能被拉進來當分母。對吧?我們只算第一線的。只算第一線,所以護理長都沒有了?"},{"start":8247.088,"end":8264.992,"text":"好那但是你如果用平均的因為每個醫院的狀況不一樣每個病房的狀況是不一樣的是對不對所以如果你用平均的來講那對某些人不是來說他的他的壓力就增加增增大他的壓力就增大那我們當然講的就是說我們我們現在講說有有達標我們就領獎金對不對"},{"start":8269.033,"end":8277.866,"text":"那這個政策對護理人員來講就是說這好像包著這個糖果的毒藥對不對他們是用肝去換的"},{"start":8279.649,"end":8292.377,"text":"我們的立場非常清楚只要我們一直在跟護理界溝通看看護理界覺得怎麼樣做才能真正他們所需要我希望衛福部不要跟他們處在平行時空還是要能夠交會才能知道他們想什麼不要說我們在用這個數據來欺騙大家然後沒看到就算了"},{"start":8307.125,"end":8333.804,"text":"包括委員護理人員是我們醫療團隊的最核心最靈魂的人物沒有他們醫療團隊都沒有辦法運作所以我希望醫療這個部分齁跟醫師全部了解到必須要好好的留住他們好不好我們一定多照顧我們病人因為你照顧護理人員就是照顧我們的民眾因為我們真的很多民眾都是在急診室排隊的都沒有病房"},{"start":8334.785,"end":8353.598,"text":"這是我看到我最擔心的事情好不好是那另外我想這個少子女化已經成為這個國安的問題目前教育體系、勞動能力、經濟及國防安全都受到嚴重的衝擊我國少子化的預算從108年的193億元到去年1088億元成長了5.6倍"},{"start":8360.905,"end":8384.634,"text":"那同期間新生兒人數卻持續地下降減少到25%減少了25%那去年只剩下13萬多人出生率只剩下1.09那我當然知道政府在做做這件事情我想我們我國少子化對策計畫裡面你覺不覺得這個有需要來檢討"},{"start":8386.906,"end":8387.747,"text":"現在是第二期"},{"start":8401.889,"end":8414.012,"text":"現在行政院已經是在開始請國科會先做一些研究,然後研究分析大概是到今年年底。所以主責機關是國科會?是行政院。那撥下來到時候以後是誰在負責?"},{"start":8432.495,"end":8436.022,"text":"我們衛福部會...我們衛福部會全力來...主責機關是誰?"},{"start":8439.497,"end":8442.798,"text":"您覺得我們有沒有需要制定這個專法?就是少子女化對策專法?"},{"start":8471.375,"end":8482.38,"text":"有沒有辦法?有沒有需要?如果任何的一個制度能夠改善,我相信少子化是我們國家重要的問題。我在這邊建議啦。任何的方法我們都可以來。我們建議啦。"},{"start":8486.101,"end":8486.221,"text":"好,是"},{"start":8513.948,"end":8535.34,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是說我們根據檢測報告今年第一劑大醫院家戶病房中超級細菌對抗生素的抗藥性已經超過7成那金黃色葡萄球菌抗藥性也都超過6成如果持續失控WHO推估我們2025年可能會造成我國3000億"},{"start":8537.585,"end":8538.926,"text":"我看到環境部公布最近3年追蹤的意願"},{"start":8563.991,"end":8592.782,"text":"有放流水檢驗的結果大概有8家醫院抗生素超標那部長你說這個不是醫療廢棄物產生的嘛 對不對因為醫療廢棄物據我的過去的經驗是那你覺得它是從哪一個環節那現在大家認為的是排泄物的問題因為你在醫院的人會被人但是據我了解就拿大台北地區來講各大醫院已經全面接了這個地下污水管線了嘛"},{"start":8593.629,"end":8596.372,"text":"我看到機關署編導預算一年大概只有2億喔?"},{"start":8619.494,"end":8645.828,"text":"2億而且沒有納入醫療機構放流水管理,像這部分我希望能夠把這個計畫納入好不好?好,我想因為行政院已經核定這個計畫了,我也希望各位委員還有各界能夠多多指導。因為我們看到現在我們的做法只有藥品的管理,那缺乏環境的管理,這部分我請部長多多用心好不好?一定一定。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝教委。"},{"start":8648.434,"end":8648.974,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請邱部長。"},{"start":8671.24,"end":8689.136,"text":"部長好,部長我也要關心的是有關於這個有8家醫院放流水抗生素超標的這個問題那現在就你們現行去管制醫院的這個一般廢棄藥品的處理流程你剛剛也說你們其實是很嚴謹的對不對?大家都有叫保來嗎?都有按照SOP走嗎?醫院"},{"start":8698.32,"end":8707.137,"text":"我想醫院的部分在醫療廢棄物方面絕對是相當的按照SOP所以這做對醫院的一個信心"},{"start":8708.038,"end":8730.71,"text":"所以不會是從廢棄藥品的處理這邊過來廢棄藥品可能擔心的以我們自己的經驗擔心的是反而是會拋棄在家裡拋棄在這邊他不會拿到醫院去丟掉然後醫院就直接送給藥局所以如果是醫院旁邊的水質有真的有超標這幾年來"},{"start":8732.551,"end":8738.134,"text":"所以你們現在就是你們研判出來的是因為病人的排泄物所造成的污染是這樣嗎"},{"start":8762.112,"end":8772.058,"text":"這是你們抓到的原因嗎?現在?我不敢講就只有這個原因,因為這只是當時開會的時候有提出來,所以要注意這個問題。所以你們現在還沒有掌握確切的污染源到底是來自於哪裡?不清楚。都是用推估的對不對?"},{"start":8783.675,"end":8794.472,"text":"因為你們呈現出來這個環境部監測的數字你可以看到他是監測10家他是說8家超標那你知道其他兩家沒有超標的是哪兩家"},{"start":8796.002,"end":8821.005,"text":"為什麼他們會只有超標?醫院應該是哪一個醫院還沒有公布?你也不知道?因為如果按照你說的是來自病人的污染物的話那各家醫院給藥的標準會不一樣嗎?會呈現你看這當中還有比如說奇美醫院他其中有一項他的這個超標值是高達3000倍跟他原來的標準值怎麼會差那麼多呢?"},{"start":8822.452,"end":8838.249,"text":"就是他好像有一些特殊性在我覺得這件事情你們真的是要用科學好好的去研究喔因為光是醫院之間的個別的差異化那就看起來有點奇怪特別是像齊美醫院他的那個平均都比較高"},{"start":8838.749,"end":8856.903,"text":"那是因為他的醫院他跟一般的民眾的這個下水道排水管是一起的嗎?他監測的那個渠道不是只有醫院嗎?是混在一起的嗎?還是這家醫院在用藥方面他有比較特殊的病人所以他的這個會比較高?我覺得這個應該要好好研究一下。我光看這個數字我覺得是蠻奇怪的。這應該要好好的研究。好。"},{"start":8861.286,"end":8861.827,"text":"目前我們是機關署跟食物鑰匙"},{"start":8880.384,"end":8897.5,"text":"111111111111111111111111"},{"start":8897.7,"end":8919.483,"text":"而這個一般的這個百姓身上來這個對健康會產生危害喔所以你們應該要扛起這個責任因為有有有行政已經核定這個行動計畫了我們會而且有經貨我們會不能等明年才開始現在當然現在就要現在就要開始好不好你們計畫我看到是2025年一直都在一直都在做啊像食藥署他對於一種"},{"start":8920.784,"end":8920.924,"text":"那個標題喔"},{"start":8950.393,"end":8973.238,"text":"少子化對策計畫之成果與未來規劃結果你們在未來規劃這邊總共只有95個字啊非常的粗糙你們的報告裡面作為衛福部也是執行少子化非常重要的一個單位結果未來的規劃總共這麼個短我想說我是有看錯嗎95個字"},{"start":8976.96,"end":8977.06,"text":"博客委員"},{"start":8995.735,"end":9013.665,"text":"請你看比較前面,其實我們有四大方向在做。未來規劃?已經在做了,譬如說幼兒的專者醫師。不是啊,這一個題目是還有包括你未來要改善的啊?以後要改善我們當然就是配合整個國家的一個行政案的一個計畫。"},{"start":9014.845,"end":9027.638,"text":"部長這個問題我也不會覺得完全是衛福部的問題但是我看到的就是目前整個少子化的問題是我們國家根本沒有一個專責單位在負責在主導"},{"start":9029.309,"end":9047.005,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9047.125,"end":9060.934,"text":"你們恐怕是連一個專人都沒有人在想這件事情啦我敢這樣子講因為這個就是現況嘛大家都被現況的業務都已經綁死了所以如果真的行政院想要做我覺得他現在這一套做法是行不通的"},{"start":9061.852,"end":9086.118,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9086.32,"end":9095.945,"text":"所以坦白講這是行政院責無旁貸的責任但是行政院現在的架構是空的阿我就問你阿行政院是誰在負責政委喔"},{"start":9097.775,"end":9097.815,"text":"陳時中?陳時中?"},{"start":9122.168,"end":9130.413,"text":"因為也沒有人在想就國科會我們就研究出來然後看大家要怎麼做那是未來的精進我們現在比如說在0到20歲的前面照顧這件事情要花非常大的力氣我只能跟部長講絕對不是你們現在這樣子用敷衍的方式去做就做得來的"},{"start":9142.961,"end":9163.387,"text":"那這個我也要說不是衛福部你們完全的責任是行政院的責任他要給人給錢有專人有專責單位才做得出成績啦人家日本是怎麼做的我們用這套做法是完全行不通最後我問一個就是你們被監察院糾正的這個有關於特殊的兒少安置機構的問題喔"},{"start":9165.529,"end":9176.268,"text":"這個部分這個去年其實也有這個立委召開公聽會那他們要求你們要轉從這個長照的機構轉嫌到兒少機構有在做嗎?"},{"start":9178.261,"end":9201.653,"text":"有進度嗎?因為時間的關係我要告訴部長的是這一件事情不是只有中央自己悶著頭做你要把機構找進來我去年在台中市擔任副市長我現在在嘉義縣跑地方地方的機構他們在經營第一線其實都非常的困難"},{"start":9202.774,"end":9218.631,"text":"所以有一些是有床也不敢開因為他也沒有人啦坦白講那中央補助的經費又是限制重重他們也缺乏彈性所以現在的現場狀況是這樣子我覺得中央機構不能無感"},{"start":9219.172,"end":9241.084,"text":" ︎"},{"start":9241.184,"end":9270.447,"text":"當然有些安置機構他們有問題但是安置機構也是你們的夥伴如果你沒把他視為是一個夥伴大家找來共同開會真的清他們現場第一線營運的問題是什麼棍子跟胡蘿蔔都是要的你不是一直棍子一直加鹽嗎那這樣子到時候都沒有人要來做這個業務的時候請問我們一直在增加的這一些有需求的兒少還有一些身心障礙的朋友他們要往哪裡去"},{"start":9271.187,"end":9286.262,"text":"所以這個是我自己在第一現場我看到的問題那我覺得你們好像就是設了非常多的框架地方反應你們就是都是最後都是不了了之所以我要求你們要開一個專案的檢討會議剛好這次監察院提出了糾正你們要好好的邀這一些相關的機構負責人坐下來談真的聽到問題是什麼"},{"start":9294.27,"end":9294.57,"text":"現在休息10分鐘。"},{"start":9406.681,"end":9407.159,"text":"2"},{"start":9734.48,"end":9734.923,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10175.148,"end":10189.374,"text":"好,繼續開會。我們請王正希委員執行。在黃秀芳委員發言完畢後,我們處理臨時提案。好,謝謝主席。那還是麻煩邱部長。部長請。"},{"start":10198.022,"end":10222.522,"text":"市長好今天有幾個問題來跟您請教就是包括今天的主題之一就是少子的話之下我們對台灣的一些政策或者是在人工流產部分有哪一些我們可以更瞭解多遠的地方那我們可以瞭解其實在過去一段時間一直都有相關的統計來告訴國人說針對於"},{"start":10226.286,"end":10242.624,"text":"在臺灣我們懷孕的這些女性婦女們他對於這個整個過程裡面如果有需要做人工流產的話那曾經有哪一些的問題存在那其實每4年都會有一個訊息的報告"},{"start":10243.345,"end":10260.359,"text":"可是這個最後一次的調查時間是在2016年那第12次的這個有關於衛福部國建署家庭與生育調查報告到了2016年以後就沒有繼續執行那沒有繼續執行的原因我們去了解"},{"start":10260.879,"end":10284.07,"text":" ︎"},{"start":10284.15,"end":10310.465,"text":"那如果是相關的統計出了問題的話那未來對於少子化的對策方面我們就很難去找到比較具體的方法或者是具體的原因來做一些對策上的一些改善或者是協助那我們先來了解目前針對於有關人工流產相關的統計的部分有兩大的一個來源一個就是健保署針對於特別醫事機構生產於"},{"start":10313.507,"end":10332.449,"text":" ︎"},{"start":10333.35,"end":10342.107,"text":"這些流產量其實我們知道事實上很多可能是有所遺漏或者是有一些不完整的地方所以針對這部分將來"},{"start":10345.029,"end":10364.277,"text":"包括主管機關在衛福部這邊有沒有一些對策可以讓我們針對於人工流產的部分可以有更完整、更周全的這個統計的資料?或者是有什麼方法可以來改善目前的困境?我想謝謝委員,委員對於現在面臨少子化的一個社會"},{"start":10365.518,"end":10381.883,"text":"那尤其對於非預期懷孕的婦女也常常關懷啦齁。如果啦,看我衛福部準備來協助來減少幾度,還比這個都是相當重要的事情齁。那剛剛委員所提的我們事情,吳市長,來。"},{"start":10384.219,"end":10401.961,"text":"為什麼未來會針對這些數字去做一個更精進的分析那我們會跟健保一起來合作那因為過去的調查是採用面黃的方式那其實它的準確度後來評估它的使用上也有一些疑慮的地方所以很多專家建議我們說"},{"start":10402.602,"end":10418.166,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10418.366,"end":10438.297,"text":"是,所以除了跟健保合作以外,同時我會建議各位跟專家學者或相關的這些學會們一起來研擬,可以讓這樣的數據可以更精確。因為我們也很期待說,如果有比較精確的數據以後,我們可以針對這些施行人工流產的這些民眾,"},{"start":10439.258,"end":10457.79,"text":" ︎"},{"start":10457.87,"end":10459.391,"text":"所以我們很期待有這個更好的一些方式來解決"},{"start":10486.9,"end":10503.679,"text":"那我們也了解說德國他們曾經針對想要做人工流產的這些民眾提供一個諮詢或者是一個思考期讓他們再重新去確定他的意願以後他們得到一個很好的一個成果就是可以讓這個民眾"},{"start":10505.481,"end":10509.763,"text":"我想我們目前也有跟我們醫療照顧團隊還有婦產科醫學會共同製作了人工流產的諮詢的指引手冊給大家做參考那我們未來會加強做先導"},{"start":10534.156,"end":10546.785,"text":"是,好,我想如果把整個生育養育的環境在像現在這樣的努力持續下去,我想有一些,第一個原因這個發現,因為這個大概比較沒辦法,因為"},{"start":10550.496,"end":10551.957,"text":"我相信今天早上有委員請教過部長這個問題"},{"start":10578.985,"end":10595.348,"text":"是那這個整個決策過程大家也覺得非常的納悶為什麼會一開始的時候會有一些相關的行業是不動長就是動長後來又做一些調整那這部分未來"},{"start":10597.145,"end":10598.065,"text":" Thank you."},{"start":10616.75,"end":10633.431,"text":"電價費利的審議會他要考慮的百工百業啦那也不可能所有的業者都進來那所以他們當然有一些原則我們也尊重但是一公布出來的話如果有些行業覺得說"},{"start":10635.283,"end":10661.795,"text":"對他們來講是不合理的我想也行政院也接受到反應我這個還是要感謝行政院長他瞭解到我們醫療院所的確是照顧人民第一線我想不只醫療院所有很多很多的行業都必須要我們給他關心那這個部分特別是在行政院長也體認到這樣的一個"},{"start":10662.875,"end":10683.046,"text":"1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111"},{"start":10683.046,"end":10701.92,"text":"議員"},{"start":10702,"end":10720.754,"text":"目前對於婦女來講尤其是到一定年紀以後子宮內膜的這個癌症如何能夠確定在他有症狀的時候呢可以或者是高風險群能夠及早的去做一些檢查這個檢查包括超音波包括子宮鏡"},{"start":10721.374,"end":10739.667,"text":" ︎"},{"start":10739.667,"end":10756.971,"text":" ️"},{"start":10757.151,"end":10785.596,"text":"因為民眾如果知道對於這個癌症帶來的影響或者是針對一些症狀能夠提早去了解的話相信民眾對自己健康也要負一些責任那我們很期待民眾教育可以透過跟教育部這邊做一些相關的加強的合作包括兩個部會之間事實上有衛教委員會那很期待可以讓這個衛教委員會可以發揮它的作用那這部分也麻煩部長再能夠多加考量"},{"start":10787.557,"end":10802.169,"text":"好,我們會配合。那我想那個王委員特別長期畢生貢獻於癌症治療跟關懷,那怎麼樣讓他更有效益,有時候篩檢是一個,問題是誰去做篩檢?"},{"start":10806.172,"end":10820.321,"text":"隨時讓民眾有意願這個我們要建立一個醫療體系那比如說你如果假設你都有一個管理你的健康的家庭醫師他對你全家大大小小都知道何時要做哪一種檢查"},{"start":10821.542,"end":10822.282,"text":"好,非常謝謝部長。"},{"start":10853.753,"end":10856.216,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請邱部長"},{"start":10875.529,"end":10900.988,"text":"委員好部長好部長我首先先請教因為在去年我們知道新生兒整個新生兒是全年度差不多13萬人那我想請教就是說到目前為止我們的全台灣的新生兒目前是多少好像8萬到現在是大概8萬到現在剩下8萬"},{"start":10902.619,"end":10914.906,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10915.247,"end":10940.027,"text":"大概12萬多12萬多剩下3個月的時間可以可以到12萬多好那我們就期待那我想這個少子化的問題應該是很多人非常擔心這個出生率一直在下降從去年的13萬那今年到目前為止8萬多我們算9萬好了那"},{"start":10940.527,"end":10968.566,"text":"像這樣子我相信這個也是我們衛福部一個非常重要的一個課題那我們當然就是說今天在討論我們這個人工生殖法的這個進度那我想請教就是說其實一個國家的一個進步當然就是說我們兒童的照顧還有婦女健康的一個照顧是一個指標性那我想請教就是說當然這個面臨少子化的這個議題就很多的面向"},{"start":10969.747,"end":10994.237,"text":"那我想請教目前就是我們兒童的權益還有婦女健康的這個區塊當然我們現在也看到很多很多女生或者是說已經結婚的這個年輕朋友結婚之後我相信很多是他們會有結婚的這個打算那其實少子化更嚴重的問題是不婚"},{"start":10995.217,"end":11011.817,"text":"是年輕人是完全是不結婚是完全不結婚不結婚然後造成這個少子化如果有結婚的話其實生育這個比例應該是跟以往差不多有結婚大部分都會想要有孩子這個是目前是這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":11013.018,"end":11031.531,"text":"我想請教就是說其實有很多年輕朋友為什麼不想結婚其實他也想到很多可能就是說未來孩子的一個教育問題或者是說女生她原本現在就有一個工作那她想等到工作穩定之後才結婚才要有小孩"},{"start":11032.13,"end":11054.396,"text":"那我想請教這個部長或者是我們署長未來像這樣的一個狀況我們衛福部這邊有沒有什麼樣因應的對策我相信衛福部針對少子化應該有因應的對策應該很多啦除了就是說一些生育補助之外那你們應該有很多的對策那我是不是可以請部長先簡單說明一下"},{"start":11056.156,"end":11083.2,"text":"我想我們行政院有四個方向在希望變成大家願意生快樂的羊可是應該也要想要結婚吧現在很多是不婚那怎麼辦應該是說很多年輕人是不想要結婚如果說有結婚的話幾乎應該都會想要有孩子"},{"start":11084.622,"end":11097.18,"text":"目前是這個狀況那不婚的這個部分我們也希望就是說當然請衛福部在這方面怎麼樣鼓勵這個年輕朋友"},{"start":11098.629,"end":11127.058,"text":"包括我們先解決我們可以做到的,譬如說讓他知道生了以後小孩子會得到很好的照顧,也可以不要白天要去工作,白天白不下去,即使是準公文化各方面反正都可以讓你好好的再上,然後勞動部也再處理這個部分,讓他還可以上班。這個這些條件都好的話,我覺得可能有的人就說"},{"start":11129.053,"end":11133.896,"text":"當然就是說我們希望這個衛福部真的少子化這個議題我們一直在講就是國安的議題國安危機那你看今年是農年"},{"start":11155.009,"end":11185.009,"text":" ️"},{"start":11185.169,"end":11204.15,"text":"那不僅是這個國安危機啦,我覺得說剛剛講的台灣整個人口的結構我覺得真的要去正視這個問題而且剛剛部長我剛剛也有聽其他的委員有特別提到他是跨部會要去討論的一個非常嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":11205.131,"end":11220.15,"text":"那當然我們希望就是說真的要去正視要不然這個議題今年是這樣子明年這個問題還是存在那我們當然也希望就是說孩子生出來之後一個都不能少這個我也時常在委員會的時候就提到"},{"start":11220.771,"end":11241.231,"text":"孩子生出來之後一個都不能少那我們這個新生兒的這個死亡率其實比鄰近國家還高那我們也看到就是說我們台灣的這個兒童醫院整個大家會擔心就是說孩子生出來之後是不是可以得到好的照顧"},{"start":11241.992,"end":11264.293,"text":"那現在台大醫院這個兒童醫院也表示希望政府能夠成立一個國家級的兒童健康研究中心好帶動臺灣的兒童醫療發展那讓新生兒跟孕婦能夠得到好的照顧我想請教部長你怎麼看只要是專科醫協會提出來的我們都非常的"},{"start":11265.864,"end":11267.226,"text":"嗯。所以我"},{"start":11277.33,"end":11298.352,"text":"如果說不管是台大的兒童醫院我想整個兒科醫學會這才是整體的不是因為醫院有醫院的一個發展的看法和基層很多很多的兒童還是在社區照顧那如果說兒科醫學會的意見我相信是很重要"},{"start":11298.752,"end":11313.608,"text":"當然我知道全台灣的這個兒童醫院其實是不多那兒童醫院其實在整個醫療的這個經營當中他是不會賺錢的一個單位那現在目前的這個兒科醫師其實也很難招聘"},{"start":11314.309,"end":11329.36,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11329.5,"end":11349.857,"text":"就是新生兒啦或者是兒童癌症啦或者是兒童比較罕見疾病或者是兒童的遺傳疾病這些那我們也希望當然我們希望就是說兒童能夠就近照顧那如果說針對這些重症或者是罕見疾病我們也希望能夠有一個比較專比較這個比較好的單位"},{"start":11353.78,"end":11380.162,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11380.222,"end":11384.047,"text":"那我希望說衛福部針對這一部分應該要去好好的思考。"},{"start":11385.43,"end":11412.343,"text":"我在這邊還是要呼籲所有的醫院我們政府要幫助你醫院好好的來運作但是各個醫院對於沒有賺錢的部門但是他是必要的一定要全力的支持包括設立兒童醫院那如果是必要的話我想各個大醫院應該都要來做這件事情不要因為他可能沒賺錢"},{"start":11413.844,"end":11434.051,"text":"我把它縮小規模那這在醫院裡面其實我們在醫學中心的現在是五大或六大任務裡面其實在這個部分也一直在很注意那比如說台大醫院如果你在公部因為我當過部主任嘛如果我們都是屬於那種賠錢的"},{"start":11437.575,"end":11451.301,"text":"我必須要呼籲就是說還是兒童的一個集中症尤其是寒病這個部分一定要跟他加強資源不然的話做這些的專家真的很需要幫忙"},{"start":11454.603,"end":11473.864,"text":"對對對對那那像這樣子的話呃各個醫院的這些呃兒童的呃集中南韓的這些疾病齁應該也有這些呃比較這這些醫師來來照顧嘛齁對那一些呃這個譬如說人員的培訓啊齁要怎麼去做我覺得這個應該也是衛福部這邊要去這這個我們會全力以赴"},{"start":11474.324,"end":11502.087,"text":"好那另外最後一個我想請教就是說剛剛講的這個少子化那如果有結婚的話他當然有的都希望能夠有孩子然後那現在嚴重的是不婚然後我現在講的是未來結婚之後的這些這一對年輕人我這樣講那這個年輕人結婚之後那有的是想說我可能等到這個工作穩定之後然後再來生小孩那有時候等到工作穩定之後可能都30幾歲了"},{"start":11503.828,"end":11528.698,"text":"對於一個女生來講整個卵巢或者是卵子它的這個品質沒有那麼好受孕就會比較困難那我在想說未來有沒有可能就是說我們現在有那個婚前的健康檢查那在這個婚前的健康檢查當中是不是有針對AMH它這個算是一個抗穆勒氏管賀蒙它可以"},{"start":11529.718,"end":11529.838,"text":"那未來……"},{"start":11558.712,"end":11574.848,"text":"他是不是他自己也要去考慮一下那我是不是要趕快如果想要有孩子的話那我是不是也要趕快這個準備生育的這個計畫所以我是不是請部長未來有沒有可能在婚前的健康檢查當中就是針對這一部分來做檢查"},{"start":11575.509,"end":11599.259,"text":"如果他有幫助我們只要有幫助我們受孕或者少子化的任何政策我相信我們都一定要全力以赴好那我也希望就是說部長針對這部分你們要去好好的思考是因為少子化確實真的是非常的嚴重而且我剛剛聽到今年到目前為止剩下8萬多人真的是非常嚴重的一個問題因為去年還有13萬今年剩下8萬好謝謝好謝謝謝偉"},{"start":11604.194,"end":11610.08,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝黃委員那我們現在處理臨時提案總共有6萬請一併先讀"},{"start":11613.289,"end":11639.127,"text":"因安置特殊需求兒少人數成長,安置需求增加,原要求衛福部於一個月內邀集安置機構負責人召開專案檢討會,針對如何提高安置人數,增加人力及預算資源等議題,提出具體改善策進作為,向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告,提案人委員王育敏、陳昭芝、陳金輝、廖偉翔、蘇清泉。第二案"},{"start":11639.807,"end":11667.125,"text":"我國婦女之子宮體癌發生率逐年提升若以每三年進行一次篩檢政府所需補助的金額粗估約為10億元為保障女性健康權益請衛福部緊速就子宮體癌篩檢補助一事進行研擬並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出具體之實施規劃提案人委員陳金輝、陳昭芝、王正旭、廖偉祥、蘇清泉第三案"},{"start":11667.785,"end":11690.373,"text":"有鑒於羊膜穿刺檢驗費補助近10年來未有調整以及幼生保健血液染色體檢驗染色體異常在確診檢驗等費用補助時中未有調整等為求前述施政措施之維持並落實國民享有之檢驗服務可穩定於民間供應特要求衛福部限期於1個月內啟動改善檢討措施於2個月內提交"},{"start":11694.874,"end":11711.387,"text":"解決規劃之書面報告提案人委員陳金輝陳昭芝、廖偉祥、蘇清泉第4案考量到醫療與民生物價相關性較高且醫院診所用電多為剛性需求貿然調漲電價將影響其穩定營運雖2024年10月3日經濟部已說明將建議電價費率審議會將醫院診所列入電價動漲"},{"start":11721.554,"end":11738.143,"text":"衛生福利部仍應持續向經濟部等單位溝通及提供協助以確保2024年10月16日實施電價調漲時醫院診所為電價動漲行業提案人委員王振旭、黃秀芳、林月琴、蘇巧慧、林楚英、李博毅"},{"start":11739.861,"end":11768.02,"text":"第5 住宿市長照機構評鑑雖有將公費疫苗接種率列入評鑑計算但具體指標內並未將肺炎鏈球菌疫苗納入項目衛生福利部應積極宣傳肺炎鏈球菌防護之重要性並研議將肺炎鏈球菌疫苗納入住宿市長照機構納入評鑑標準以使防疫政策更加周延提案人委員王振旭、林月琴、黃秀芳、蘇巧慧、李博義、林儲英"},{"start":11769.981,"end":11793.764,"text":"第6案,衛福部支持在宅急症照護事辦計畫有關每日護理費、假日加成並與全民健康保險醫療服務給付項目及支付標準共同擬定會議提案並尋求支持推動以利在宅急症照護之業務推動提案人委員王振旭、林月琴、黃修芳、蘇巧慧、李博毅、林楚英宣讀完畢。"},{"start":11800.885,"end":11825.785,"text":"我們現在主案來處理請問第一案 行政單位有沒有意見同意各位委員有沒有意見同意 謝謝好 那通過 來 第二案第二案可不可以謝謝委員的關心是不是可以修改幾個文字就是在具體實施規劃前面那個資本要刪除改成具體實施規劃之書面評估報告"},{"start":11829.617,"end":11836.402,"text":"蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇緬報告蘇"},{"start":11861.753,"end":11866.855,"text":"陳慶威不可以照呢?要不要跟我做主席?"},{"start":11894.997,"end":11895.478,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11921.267,"end":11925.411,"text":"臨時提案已經全部處理完畢接下來我們請蘇清泉委員發言好謝謝主席我請邱部長"},{"start":11944.068,"end":11960.911,"text":"委員好 委員辛苦了我先用差不多一分鐘兩分鐘時間跟大家報告這次的大災難因為秘書委員指教我很虛心接受他也非常用心那我跟大家報告"},{"start":11961.997,"end":11983.097,"text":"因為這個安泰醫療社同法安泰醫院是我跟我太太創立從零開始的醫院那現在的規模是600多床是重度責任醫院所以不是一個很爛的醫院是很認真的醫院這過去的30年也沒有發生過重大的災難"},{"start":11984.528,"end":11991.726,"text":"所以對於大家的指教我虛心接受沒有人希望發生這種事情"},{"start":11993.305,"end":12012.924,"text":"台大醫院開刀法我先回修處過所以大家都沒有事我先做事我很感謝因為屏東縣縣長消防局衛生局警察局還有八軍團的全部都從頭到尾大家都要拚"},{"start":12016.405,"end":12041.291,"text":"5、60年來我沒有看過有一次這麼複合性的大災難同時在發生而且那個風是12、13、14級而且暴雨狂風瞬間陣風達到16級、17級島上我碰到那個奈瑞隆他說他們小港那邊連貨櫃都被吹下來"},{"start":12042.503,"end":12056.498,"text":"那整個東港安泰院前面的中正路我跟大家報告那個裝潮牌是一直飛、一直掉好像血滴子一樣所以你沒辦法在外面停留30秒"},{"start":12058.226,"end":12076.737,"text":"那跟大家報告發生的地點剛剛林淑雯委員講的也不對是在另外一邊的動力中心那全部都是煙因為發起火的地方是在動力中心那現在減掉"},{"start":12078.058,"end":12100.228,"text":"還有三組檢察官還有那個鑑識小組都在查起火他們也非常非常的認真我很感謝他們那該負什麼責任就負什麼責任那我跟大家報告這個醫院我不是負責醫師但是我是創立的人我是榮譽院長所以我第一時間"},{"start":12101.664,"end":12122.671,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12123.807,"end":12144.527,"text":"專人在陪伴等等該給的撫恤菌該給的商量補助費都已經花了一批又一批了那對於所有的轉出去的我們要報告300多個病人轉出去才100個表示說還有200多個在我們的前面的AV棟在處理在治療"},{"start":12146.089,"end":12155.109,"text":"那至於管縣老舊跟大家報告這一次發生事情的是第一棟那是最新才十幾年那個管縣是沒有老舊"},{"start":12156.223,"end":12179.377,"text":"那前面的A、B棟反而是老舊但是A、B棟已經換了一輪了不管所有的管件都已經換了一輪了我們不是笑的30年30來年沒有發生過公安事件那這一次發生我們真的是非常痛心那也跟大家報告那個風跟雨實在太大"},{"start":12180.558,"end":12183.663,"text":"病人家屬還有消防隊在單單消防隊才有200個弟兄"},{"start":12187.386,"end":12211.284,"text":"那所有的人還有我們員工差不多當時在施救差不多700個人整個1000多個人全部都塞在ABC棟根本沒有人有辦法出去所以這種災難我昨天那很感謝我們卓院長也關心我們邱部長也第一時間在風雨交加就最厲害的那個當下就是災害中心正在"},{"start":12214.367,"end":12233.487,"text":"開會總統也在行政院長也在部長也在他們都打電話來關心所以我感謝陳其邁市長這裡要特別謝謝他派了21部救護車上面配備有護理師有醫師全部跑到東港來都在準備所以要感謝太多人"},{"start":12234.758,"end":12256.077,"text":"我跟大家報告消防隊一來他在二樓一樓的動力中心來動他發現那個溫度已經300多度所以一來就全部斷電台電就全部斷電那醫院裡面發電機不讓開分電盤是不是也燒掉了我們到現在還搞不太清楚"},{"start":12257.472,"end":12258.013,"text":"整棟大樓"},{"start":12277.369,"end":12298.343,"text":"我昨天也跟我們內政部長也跟他報告所以是不是內政部這邊跟我們衛福部這邊來蓋一棟模擬大樓狂風暴雨看看怎麼來輸救我們的護理師有一個護理師背一個105公斤的病人從11樓背下來"},{"start":12299.887,"end":12323.888,"text":"全身黑媽媽全身都是煙所以我對我們的醫護人員我最深最深的謝意還有我們消防局警察局連軍團的都來那陳其萬院長後來21輛救護車也載了4個回到高雄長庚等等所以在這邊再一次的跟大家致謝那"},{"start":12327.92,"end":12351.766,"text":"會發生這種事情我們大家都虛心來檢討那現在因為我們是重度專業所以我們的量要如何來提升如何來恢復那設備我剛剛跟部長報告現在的設備我們再幫他提升現在是這樣我們再幫他往上提升變成更先進這倒是是不是更好的方法請部長給我們開示給我們實施一下"},{"start":12357.82,"end":12373.077,"text":"好,謝謝趙薇,真的也很感動趙薇這句虛話。她的觀念拍到手就直接用了。藉著她自己慘痛的經驗,她願意把這些經驗分享,也希望全國"},{"start":12374.438,"end":12375.959,"text":"我們的停車場就可以容納一千人"},{"start":12403.479,"end":12405.38,"text":"昨天早上到屏東去,他就看到,他就一直跟我鼓勵"},{"start":12423.325,"end":12424.266,"text":"委員加油"},{"start":12452.926,"end":12467.083,"text":"謝謝部長。來我們請李坤成委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是請我們邱部長。部長請。"},{"start":12471.949,"end":12493.19,"text":"市長好,今天我們衛福部來報告這個少子化對策的執行的成效那對於少子化這部分的話我相信對於新生兒還有對孕婦的照顧都相當的重要那可是我們看一下我們的資料在2023年呢台灣的新生兒死亡率是千分之2.8那嬰兒死亡率是千分之4.3"},{"start":12494.311,"end":12497.534,"text":"台灣因兒死亡率的居高不下的原因在哪裡?那第二個,孕婦的死亡率。那孕婦的死亡率,台灣按照這個數字"},{"start":12520.953,"end":12529.911,"text":"在2019年創下23年的新高,達到10萬分之16。近3年雖有下降,但是數字也有限,下降到10萬分之13到14。一樣,"},{"start":12531.741,"end":12552.382,"text":"相較於其他的這個日本跟韓國日本是10萬分之3.4韓國是10萬分之8.8都遠低於臺灣那這個在我們這個衛福部國民健康署也有一個在110年有一個降低孕產復興生兒及5歲以下兒童死亡率的策略規劃"},{"start":12553.323,"end":12566.119,"text":"那我定下了一個2020永續發展目標請教一下部長這個今年是2024年的2020的這個發展目標這個孕婦死亡率要低於10萬分之11.6"},{"start":12570.175,"end":12584.768,"text":"請問有沒有答到?然後還有這個降低5歲兒童及新生王死亡率5歲以下兒童死亡率要低於千分之5然後新生王死亡率要低於千分之2.4請問一下有沒有答到?"},{"start":12586.975,"end":12606.619,"text":"報告委員其實在臺灣醫療水準這麼高的情況之下是啊如果有這樣的一個data我們真的是必須要深切的來檢討深切的檢討而且這是2020年的一個你們的發展目標到現在2024年了沒有一個指標達到那到底原因是出在哪裡"},{"start":12609.164,"end":12632.471,"text":"我想市長應該針對這個有做很多的一個探討,是不是吳市長要幫我們...我想這個第一個我們就孕婦的死亡率的部分來做分析,那因為我們的孕產婦的數量,就是所謂的母數下降的速度...我不要講總結數字,我想你們做了什麼,好不好?"},{"start":12634.432,"end":12635.152,"text":"為什麼4年過去的這個數字都沒有達標?"},{"start":12657.739,"end":12677.773,"text":"﹗"},{"start":12678.592,"end":12702.129,"text":"這個出生 嬰兒的出生率但是我們連嬰兒的死亡率降低我們到目前為止還沒辦法做到好 這個也是 薛委員這個也是我們健康台灣裡面兩大重點要做的事情那第一個在 孕產後怎麼樣在第一孕第一孕期第二孕期第三孕期甚至到所謂的產後的第四孕期我們都來提出一個"},{"start":12704.04,"end":12732.134,"text":"來策略那在另外一個重要的指標就是我們希望把新生兒的一個死亡率降到從5點多降到4以下所以是我們的一個未來的目標那在這個目標之下我相信我們會檢討我們所有不是啊你這個未來目標時間是要多長我們是預計4年內要降到OECD的一個至少是前半端"},{"start":12733.427,"end":12740.17,"text":"前半段那所以呢至少你們有沒有達到你們2020年的目標就好我就我就問這個就好了有沒有辦法達到可能剛新勝國死亡利益這個沒有沒有達到對那我說你們未來4年有沒有辦法達到因為這是2020年了嘛那我只是問說這2020年的目標在賴總統的這4年有沒有辦法達到好了"},{"start":12761.691,"end":12786.58,"text":"我相信以現在大家的體認跟團結跟為台灣的一個醫療的指標努力我們也跟專家都有做詳細的討論應該是可以達到我們的目標好那因為日本跟韓國的不管是孕婦或是新生兒的死亡率都比我們低能不能去做一下研究報告好不好就是說為什麼我們會"},{"start":12788.039,"end":12809.515,"text":"日本跟韓國其實生活條件什麼都跟我們差不多嘛我們的醫療的水準我甚至覺得說還比他們還要好但是我們的孕婦跟新生的手力為什麼還是會比他們高你們去做個研究的報告好不好至少這兩個國家我們一起做個比較有什麼可以改善的地方我們稍微來檢討一下研究一下好不好"},{"start":12809.915,"end":12823.205,"text":"那如果已經有報告了,你就提供給我們參考,好不好?好,如果有報告我們提供,沒有的話我們趕快來委託專家研究。好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝,謝謝李委員,謝謝部長。接續我們請楊耀委員質詢。謝謝主席,主席我請一下邱部長。"},{"start":12842.171,"end":12862.541,"text":"部長少子化是一個很嚴重的問題那少子化的因素很多啦其中有一項大概就是照顧的問題所以我想國家在拖音的部分必須要再加把勁那我來跟部長討論一下"},{"start":12867.089,"end":12890.219,"text":"0-2歲的嬰兒照顧問題今年大概有很多報道都指出很多縣市的父母親排不到公托那我當然知道這個是地方政府負責的事務不過部裡面這邊的政策跟經費應該是也可以多"},{"start":12892.995,"end":12922.995,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12925.738,"end":12940.671,"text":"針對公脫設置的速度太慢,衛福部這邊政策方向大概是怎麼樣?當然我們持續一直爭取監會...代理署長回答也可以齁沒有,是實際上一直那個爭取監會齁所以預計我們113人會設置...113年就是今年了會設555處"},{"start":12948.138,"end":12949.58,"text":"一萬七加一萬一千二一萬八"},{"start":12970.299,"end":12994.16,"text":"1萬8那就要看部件的地區還是以假如我這邊資料沒有錯的話大概就是台北市跟桃園算是最嚴重的這個必須要就是因為少子化算是一個國安層級的問題所以衛福部這邊必須要協助地方政府"},{"start":12994.981,"end":12997.082,"text":"在擴充量的同時怎麼兼顧照顧的品質?"},{"start":13022.773,"end":13040.523,"text":"委員好 這個照顧的部分我想我們大概是放在公托大概就是一個是托嬰中心一個是公共家園或者是給保母那第一個我們當然是要求就是絕對不能夠虐待小孩或不當對待我們就加強這個托育人員的這個教育訓練這是一個"},{"start":13041.653,"end":13068.604,"text":"那第二個是我們在這個職場裡面的同仁是很辛苦的所以我們衛福部也提高了就跟行政院有爭取經費提高他們的這個待遇好那希望是能夠這個讓他們的在職場上面的條件是比較友善的我想這是我們的第二個做法那第三個待我們也是在那個加強我們縣市的同仁去做一些查訪平常的查訪跟以及做評鑑"},{"start":13070.264,"end":13073.393,"text":"的這個有沒有做好這個照顧的工作"},{"start":13075.471,"end":13102.986,"text":"這三個方向好像都是正確的啦就是教育訓練然後讓他的專業的能力提高提高待遇讓他的情緒好一點那查核這個方向是對的可是希望能夠落實啦我常常說政策目標也好法律也好"},{"start":13104.99,"end":13108.575,"text":"訂的再好,落實不了都是白搭啦。"},{"start":13112.133,"end":13136.059,"text":"部長我這邊還有一個問題就是監察院有指出說現在大概有176名特殊需求的兒少被安置在一般的護理指教跟身心障礙機構就是不是安置在應該安置的地方"},{"start":13137.68,"end":13151.658,"text":"這個案你們應該有,你們現在要怎麼重新安置這一些特殊的、特殊需求的兒少來符合他的最佳利益?好,那我想"},{"start":13152.833,"end":13178.46,"text":"特殊需求兒少安排在成人機構這個是因為有他特殊需求我們也希望想要得到更好的照顧那當然我們終極的目標就是希望他能夠回家不管是回自己的原生家庭或者是安養的一個縮養的家庭都是但是他如果需要還是需要在機構的話我們也會在長照的區域裡面做一個專區"},{"start":13179.36,"end":13180.78,"text":"有的因為他的情況比較特殊所以不得不喊自災"},{"start":13207.594,"end":13216.651,"text":"理論上應該是這樣子嘛,對不對?那我們把它安置在一般的護理之家或是身體障礙福利機構怎麼落實"},{"start":13221.516,"end":13221.656,"text":"禮拜二"},{"start":13249.673,"end":13263.627,"text":"就上個禮拜二總質詢的時候的時候要講還是因為就天后的關係所以就改成書面還是還是一樣是"},{"start":13265.72,"end":13287.691,"text":"醫學中心的問題因為我覺得這個醫學中心的評鑑應該要由部長跟陳時中政委都在的時候來討論會比較好所以我才原本要因為陳時中部長就是一再承諾醫學中心一定要有升有降"},{"start":13289.377,"end":13309.968,"text":"可是他離職了以後卻突然一次評鑑就增加了三家的醫學中心醫學中心一直增加一方面健保的支出會增加會吧?會不會?"},{"start":13312.745,"end":13338.246,"text":"醫學中心跟區醫院的幾戶是不一樣的嘛對不對會增加那健保健保收的少然後資的多現在大家一直在討論財源然後你們一直一直在增加醫學中心的數量從我們原本原本就台灣的人口數我們的評估是12家現在已經22家是"},{"start":13341.189,"end":13367.39,"text":"那假如說我還是因為今天時間的關係我不想佔用其他同事的太多時間我就想說假如說你們只升不降那是不是已經升級的醫學中心就好好的讓他從事醫療機構就停止他的評鑑要不然他浪費一大堆一大堆時間做出很多書面"},{"start":13368.427,"end":13390.028,"text":"然後可是對他來講沒有意義因為他已經升到醫學中心他也不可能再升了那台灣的制度除了陳時中部長一直堅持說他一定會有升有降以外卻都是只升不降那何必浪費時間來做評鑑呢"},{"start":13397.946,"end":13414.399,"text":"平建也是要求當然平建我們希望不要造成醫院太多的行政作業現在是這樣子因為平建是這樣他已經到醫學中心但是他現在維持他的平建嘛但他平建無關他平建無關我們都不會幫他"},{"start":13419.213,"end":13426.301,"text":"現在就是...就是...我現在講的就是...醫學中心是從來沒有...沒有...沒有...沒有...台灣從來沒有醫學中心被降過"},{"start":13438.376,"end":13465.21,"text":"不然你再想一想因為這個問題我因為還有很多同事要質詢我不想佔用大家的時間不過你想一想說臺灣到底在健保的財務已經這麼困難的情況下醫學中心一直加速一直增加對於健保來講是一種傷害"},{"start":13466.553,"end":13480.809,"text":"那醫學中心只升不降這個會不會造成醫學中心的的怠惰這個部長想一想我們有機會再再做討論謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝央委員謝謝部長接續我們請黃伯昌委員質詢"},{"start":13495.639,"end":13522.553,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩邀請部長好,我這樣請委員好部長好,以前當委員的時候是同事啊是恭喜你當上衛福部部長是,謝謝我們直接進正題啊大選的時候,我們的總統賴清德說他告訴所有一屆的朋友點子不會低於0.9,要朝議員努力啊一開始是這樣講的"},{"start":13524.916,"end":13547.486,"text":"後來繼續加碼健保點子平均要1.1億元然後有人酸他你做不到來不及他說我最有能力解決我來自醫界我想第一個基本的價值的問題我們要先處理你認為健保的點子1.1億元是不是在浪費公帑"},{"start":13550.22,"end":13567.015,"text":"報告委員因為這是總額制總額制它的點子就基本上就會有變化所以呢所以你覺得賴清德總統是在亂開支票嗎我想他是希望朝著這一方面來努力不是嘛你一個要選總統的人開了政見就要兌現啊"},{"start":13571.007,"end":13597.406,"text":"什麼叫做要朝這個方向來努力我們先講價值的問題嘛健保點值1.1元是不是在浪費公帑這個基本概念很重要啊因為我聽到我們的行政院院長卓榮泰啊說行政院編預算不可以浪費公帑啊我聽了覺得啊陣容發愧啊非常的有道理啊所以我們繼續往下走以前啊先處理這個基本價值的問題嘛"},{"start":13598.735,"end":13622.056,"text":"如果今天有一個臨時任用的人員一年給他一百多萬原來是立委的助理莊角我一定說這是浪費公帑但健保點子一點億元牽涉到基層醫護全力的保障所以我才請教你健保點子一點億元是不是在浪費公帑"},{"start":13625.048,"end":13629.959,"text":"會嗎?您覺得會浪費工廠嗎?您也來自醫界嘛。會不會浪費工廠?"},{"start":13632.202,"end":13656.698,"text":"有沒有讓位醫療資源這個就是說有沒有管理得當如果他管理得很好醫療需求也是需要我想全民應該體會到醫界是真的很認真很節儉的資源在照顧病人對嘛那民眾應該所以你來自醫界就知道嘛我們醫界是勒緊了孤袋在照顧病人嘛"},{"start":13658.206,"end":13664.953,"text":"我每次去醫院的時候看見那些醫生護理師那麼辛苦我都希望可以幫他們多講一點話所以啊我們為了要幫賴清德主席貫徹他競選總統的政見我們上個會期簽了組決議這是跨黨派的委員"},{"start":13680.117,"end":13706.87,"text":"因為在照顧醫護同仁、照顧病患不應該有顏色之分、黨派之分我相信部長絕對有這個高度嘛所以跨黨派的委員拿這個來給我簽的時候我看了完全沒猶豫就簽了啊三個黨團的總召全部都簽了啊114年6月30號以前要達到平均點值0.95元做做得到"},{"start":13709.144,"end":13734.322,"text":"報告委員因為這兩個分兩個部分簡單報告第一個就是我們在談總額有一個總額的成長率這個我理解今年的成長率是5.5是可能是有史以來最高的是這中間就成長了531億是那另外行政院也預注了336億元那當然有很多的其中有180億元是比較屬於協助健保所以這兩個加起來其實也700多億了那"},{"start":13738.735,"end":13751.101,"text":"那這700多位當然就是說我們醫療的同仁一定要去做點事情然後再再有收入這樣子沒有關係啊單刀直入一點一點全委員做不做得到"},{"start":13753.71,"end":13773.216,"text":"我想我們現在的努力對點子一定有很大的幫助但是能夠預期到因為報告委員那個各區在訂他自己的點子其實他們也可以自己訂比如說臺北區他們的臺大醫院農總醫院剛剛楊耀委員在質詢的時候他很客氣啊"},{"start":13774.196,"end":13800.764,"text":"他說他不要耽誤到後面委員的時間但我知道他該講的話沒講完我也是靜靜的在等他那我希望啦我給你一個問題你就給大家一個明快的答案嘛那要不然的話在那邊拖來拖去其實沒什麼意思啦今年暑假的時候啊衛福部的次長林靜儀說啊說要到0.95元需要挹注700億這個估計對不對"},{"start":13804.048,"end":13816.872,"text":"這是我們依照這個健保的總額來算所以這個估計對不對?對還是不對?原則上用那個總額來算是差不多要需要這樣的經費這樣子那有編進去嗎?"},{"start":13820.621,"end":13821.361,"text":"我只問一個關鍵的問題,預算夠不夠?"},{"start":13840.263,"end":13854.043,"text":"這個預算必須要在醫療體系齁也在盡量改在醫療體系的改革因為現在全國人民聽不懂啊卓院長跟大家說有困難你說你有信心那現在大家到底要聽誰的聽卓榮泰的還聽你的"},{"start":13856.198,"end":13859.041,"text":"我只要相信醫療體系能夠大家能夠配合政府的努力我相信達到這個目標是不遠"},{"start":13876.663,"end":13889.591,"text":"我不敢講說一定0.95但是我們一定朝這個目標來部長你是來很厲害的上來質詢要幫你爭取預算然後你可以在那邊歐聯社都可以讓他回報阿部沒有關係啦"},{"start":13891.024,"end":13905.439,"text":"我想我質詢的重點你聽得懂啦這屋乖總是要為政策的成敗負責任嘛記得這件事就好了如果錢明明不夠你在這邊說夠我們明年夏天我們一定會檢驗的好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":13921.508,"end":13945.368,"text":"主席,在場的委員先進。列席的正午,江市長、官員會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生。有請我們邱部長及護理師的曾專門委員。部長請。部長好。今天本來要談人工生殖,人工生殖的原因是不是就因為我們少子化的原因?"},{"start":13951.894,"end":13958.42,"text":"少子化那我們因為現在台灣的少子化程度你知道目前一年的人口出生數是多少嗎下一頁"},{"start":13963.48,"end":13980.213,"text":"13萬多嗎?那麼其實我們現在是生不如死,一年短差已經到7萬了。而且從2020前就已經生得不如死的了。好,你知道越南一年的新生人口大概多少?你知道我常去越南看新南向的醫療。你知道我這次去他們告訴我多少嗎?一年的新生兒185萬。185萬。好,那"},{"start":13988.012,"end":13988.272,"text":"但是我覺得要糾正。"},{"start":14010.376,"end":14021.853,"text":"大家不要畏懼其實我認為要調高的是65歲這個提高啦其實我這次吼難得受傷去醫院住院還被推去受手術全身麻醉我才發現幫我推論你的年紀比我還大"},{"start":14023.482,"end":14045.662,"text":"其實這呈現什麼其實現在我們的健康情況都很好很多人中高齡就業70歲以前他還可以做很多事情所以我們要思考一下不要只看到事情的負面的一面要看到他可能的正向影響我們的雖然高齡化了但是我們的高齡人口的健康情況是有在持續提高的這是拜我們醫療所示謝謝往下看"},{"start":14046.443,"end":14063.418,"text":"好那目前我們需要的問題就是這樣所以看事情要看兩面你認為要解決目前我們護理人員是不是因為開人不足才開不出床來很多醫院都病床啊他明明可以開一千床的他開不到八成是不是有這個情況那怎麼解決這個問題部長所以我們用"},{"start":14067.189,"end":14093.78,"text":"其實訓練的護理人員是夠但是留任力比較重要但是我們來想想看你們都是從醫護訓練的量來看他未來的從業的量這裡面有很大的一個水桶如果破了你補再多水還是漏光啊以前我們常開玩笑說啊也說最好的工作嘛錢多事少離家近對不對睡覺睡到自然醒休息休到怎麼腳抽筋有沒有這樣的工作"},{"start":14095.031,"end":14113.67,"text":"我們的護理人員剛好相反啊他是怎樣前面有很多事情很多對不對離家近有沒有用常常要待命被擒是不是這樣這就封殺很多人停班停課醫護人員最辛苦就算沒有門診還是要在颱風天幫大家看病是不是這樣甚至有的公立醫院還發病了什麼"},{"start":14115.452,"end":14132.731,"text":"臺豐門診意思說我門診照開啊臺豐家門診有沒有聽說為什麼服務我們的同仁嘛好不好同胞嘛是不是這樣是所以重點不只是提升待遇有人很斤斤計較在點子之外他提醒了要改善職場的負荷啦我們要護理人員不只待遇問題是不是負荷過重"},{"start":14136.345,"end":14155.667,"text":"你錢可以多但是你事情沒有減少的話年輕人還是不願意投入啦這些受過醫護訓練的人還是不願意投入臨床啦是不是這樣子好我們往下看所以呢普遍的他是高工時低薪我們除了改善他的薪資之外其實重點是怎樣要讓他的工時降低"},{"start":14156.327,"end":14184.265,"text":"或者那工時降低人就要增加啊你不增加人那工時沒辦法降低啊多一點人他能每個人工作時間降低第二個事情要減少我這次才發現呢我是住院啦往下看齁我們醫院很多很多的人力在做什麼往下一頁餵食嘛我當然不需要餵食啦齁我要自己叫那個副PANDA啦然後呢移動把我推出手術房叫我坐輪椅我說我就可以走路啊大哥你比我年紀還大他說不行你待會全身麻醉要坐輪椅誰來推輪椅你知道嗎"},{"start":14186.803,"end":14202.091,"text":"派遣人力派遣人力有專業訓練嗎你知道現在看到派遣人力在醫院裡面還要很小心啊你不能叫什麼阿姨最忌諱叫阿姨都不能對年輕的長大對年長的女性叫阿姨連大姐都不能叫要稱美女因為你不還要年齡啊"},{"start":14203.41,"end":14227.183,"text":"你知道這些推輪椅的在幫你黃金萊巡訪的這些美女們是護理人員嗎?很多都是派遣人員甚至是外籍看護是不是這樣?那這些人員如果受到專業的訓練能夠有效的分攤我們護理人員非核心的護理業務你覺得有沒有有助於我們解決目前錢少勢多護理人員的窘境?有可以幫助好那我要告訴你"},{"start":14227.952,"end":14249.806,"text":"我雖然對於外籍看護他們的貢獻我沒有完全抹煞但是還是有一個問題他們受的訓練太少語言溝通能力不夠但是如果今天我們的我昨天才過去辭會他們在發一個問題就他們五專現在只剩連二專都沒辦法招了因為他們考試的關係但是呢我問過很多"},{"start":14251.206,"end":14260.609,"text":"認為五專的護理訓練他如果未來是錯護理佐的問題啊護理護理佐的問題呢是錯作有益現在有護理佐理人員的一個規劃嗎有沒有護理佐理人員的規劃簡單講有這部分有因為我們目前有個12項計畫裡面有一個住院整合照護計畫裡面有這個這些護理佐理人員有規定要本國人嗎"},{"start":14275.322,"end":14297.958,"text":"嗯,沒有規定。好,因為他們有本國證照嘛,對不對?但是你想想看,這些護理卓理人員如果用這些美女、帥哥、年紀長的、無技術能力的還是外籍的看護,用來台灣學習護理教育的這些年輕的僑外生,你覺得他們未來在台灣完成訓練後,來到醫院裡面從事這樣的護理卓理人員適不適當?"},{"start":14300.848,"end":14317.411,"text":"我們現在其實也在演繹很好趕快加速演繹時間快到了往下看所以我建議一下因為我常去這些東南亞國家他們這些國家遇到問題就是他們人員的專業訓練不夠他們都很嚮往來台灣接受完整的醫護技術訓練跟教育培養"},{"start":14318.092,"end":14338.255,"text":"但是他們也希望能夠在這段期間台灣能夠投入一些有幾的工作這個如何跟勞動部跟教育部商量我覺得很重要但是你們要先把護理佐理這個人力需求切割出來這些僑外生受護理教育的僑外生他們才會有機會進入到臨床來減輕我們本國護理人員的負擔你同意嗎"},{"start":14340.152,"end":14340.532,"text":"部長,下一位。"},{"start":14364.574,"end":14380.484,"text":"其實啊,您的思考比較久,我很快樂時間,開玩笑。我跟您講,現種科技,傳動就把電力,現在叫儲能設施。儲能設施由於科技的發展,現在一個特斯拉的電動車,一個車庫有一個特斯拉,你這次颱風就算停電三天你也不怕。"},{"start":14381.184,"end":14408.18,"text":"因為一個特斯拉的電池的供電量可以讓一個5人的家庭可以用3天所以目前如果我們用像醫院這種關鍵性的維生的一個機構應該轉換用安效為安全不是說絕對安全 較為安全的儲能設施或者是燃料電池來取掉傳統的柴電部長有沒有去盤點目前我們全國的醫護機構醫療機構他們目前的備援電力是用柴電還是用其他的先進技術有沒有評估過"},{"start":14414.874,"end":14433.824,"text":"是的但是柴油已經證明了這是一個上個世紀的技術上個世紀的備援系統要趕快盤點避免再發生我們醫院的火警來往下最後一個結論請評估引進喬外森訓練後能擔任輔佐減輕我們醫護的壓力也請你在一個月內提出的說明報告我們醫療機構的原來的設置柴電的替代方案"},{"start":14434.424,"end":14436.647,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請邱部長"},{"start":14458.322,"end":14484.463,"text":"部長晚安很開心可以來質詢這個過去的同事然後現在已經是我們的部長部長我想剛剛聽到我們蘇組蘇昭偉剛剛至情至心一番有關於安泰醫院的這個用心良苦的發言本席是相當肯定的不過就像剛剛包括連中嘉賓委員也在詢問就是有關於這個醫療機構的安全本席是特別的建議啦是不是我們接下來應該要安排一個就是醫療機構有關防"},{"start":14486.785,"end":14513.551,"text":"災的安全專報反正大家都介意都在乎也在意那我們就可以一起來共同討論那麼包括安泰醫院他年底也要來進行這個所謂的相關的醫療評估的時候也不會讓大家覺得說因為這個榮譽院長是召委然後通過評估是不是有瓜田李夏或什麼我們就一起來關注我覺得這個對召委也是比較公平的不知道這個部長是不是可以同意那我們就趕快可以來也來安排我們到時候所有的委員也可以一起來關注"},{"start":14515.979,"end":14521.644,"text":"這是在2019年5月17號當時我跟包括主席洪森漢委員然後賴品宇委員林昌作委員跟陳培宇委員我們當時針對人工生殖法該修法舉行了公聽會"},{"start":14537.178,"end":14565.715,"text":"當時其實所有NGO團體最大的公約數就是單身女性跟同志伴侶要緊述來修正人工生殖法我知道今天前面有一些委員是說人工生殖已經來不及了最好還要提升到一步到位到代理育母的部分但是我剛剛看了一下我們專報的書面報告裡頭第一頁就說要將人工生殖跟代理育母採脫鉤的方式來處理喔那麼這個到底是不是肯定的"},{"start":14566.075,"end":14568.22,"text":"因為我們都知道下一張"},{"start":14569.943,"end":14596.474,"text":"在衛福部之前的預告裡面感覺上不是這樣人家說小孩才做選擇所以一次通通都要但是對於一個相關的醫療的法規的修正真的可以這樣嗎真的可以一步到位嗎當你如果爭議很多的時候會不會因為代理育母的爭議包括道德性的一些爭議甚至於說是不是子宮販售化像這樣的議題讓"},{"start":14599.155,"end":14599.175,"text":"因為剛剛﹖"},{"start":14623.243,"end":14651.828,"text":"我們也特別知道像這種一個修法或是一個制度的改變常常會牽涉到的是有沒有爭議沒有爭議的有沒有可能或者是說爭議少的可能先行那現在衛福部的態度到底是什麼會不會因為有別的委員希望一起搭上這班車然後一起把門打開那麼就讓原本爭議比較少的反而遭到阻礙"},{"start":14652.868,"end":14680.575,"text":"部長謝謝委員的垂行我想我們對人工修法就是一直滾動式的需要應應這個社會的需求民眾的需求那我們一定要堅持幾個原則就是的一個不管是人工生殖的質理的最佳前代的一個利益還有就是在倫理各方面的一個考量"},{"start":14681.475,"end":14688.96,"text":"我能不能獲得一個肯定的答案就是報告已經說了會脫鉤那麼有沒有可能沒有爭議的未婚女性跟"},{"start":14706.929,"end":14731.24,"text":"同志、伴侶可以先行,還是真的就是要全部通通一起來?我是不是請吳署長先回答一下?好,署長。我想我們都是在努力當中,那這個是政策的定調,那未來也是,因為這個立法院這邊本身也有16個版本,那相關的需求都在裡面,那未來在討論的時候也會有相關的這些議題。"},{"start":14731.8,"end":14743.525,"text":"那如果說爭議的部分到底你們怎麼樣來判讀判斷?如果說現在代理運母的部分?最後我們還是尊重立法院的審理結果好時間到我想後面還有其他的這些同仁好謝謝林委員謝謝部長那繼續我們請紅色浪委員質詢"},{"start":14763.846,"end":14786.38,"text":"謝謝主席那請這個邱部長部長請委員好部長剛剛前面很多同仁其實當然都談到給討論到了這個人工生殖法是接下來下一步的狀況那我自己其實不管是衛福部的公聽會或立法院公聽會幾乎每一場我都參與是好"},{"start":14787.304,"end":14794.765,"text":"那也把每一場的會議記錄跟各方的主張論述也都全部看過一遍"},{"start":14795.802,"end":14819.178,"text":"那這為什麼當時其實我特別希望先通過女同志跟單身女性人工生殖法因為他共識相對高那尤其是在時間的流逝之下其實有很多女性其實真的等不及那當然接下來我想跟部長請教幾個更進一步的問題部長我看了一下當時衛福部提供的草案也請這個吳署長上來"},{"start":14822.014,"end":14838.944,"text":"如果一位20到29歲的成年女性來看她可以決定結婚生子她在符合草案的條件規劃下符合草案的條件下她可以成為代理孕母代理母20歲可以但很奇怪"},{"start":14839.924,"end":14866.457,"text":"他卻不能夠自己決定動卵後要決定做試管嬰兒因為我們在草案裡面說對不起單身女性要滿30歲才能夠自己決定做後面的形成受精卵或試管嬰兒部長為什麼一個20歲到29歲的女性他說我可以當代理孕母可是我卻不能決定我自己動的卵要去做試管嬰兒為什麼這個差別為什麼30歲才可以部長"},{"start":14867.694,"end":14887.172,"text":"好 我想吳市長是專家齁沒有 這個是我們在專家會議討論裡面來講那論的這個部分必須要有一定的社會經濟能力的評估以後才這樣設定那一個20歲他可以變代理部但是他卻不能決定自己是來處理自己的受精卵沒有辦法 這只是中間的落差大家看不懂啊"},{"start":14896.212,"end":14916.841,"text":"蘇董不能只推給專家啊那這個本來就是你要自己懷孕自己生子那你的家庭狀況必須要去考量啊是對那剛剛提到這個是要成為被代孕的委託部長我要先跟你反映這一點是一些很多民間團體很疑惑的地方為什麼這兩個之間的年齡落差接下來當然"},{"start":14917.779,"end":14930.193,"text":"我要跟這個部長再談到其實民眾也很好奇喔當時的草案其實允許成立代孕服務機構那我想問一下衛福部目前其實盤點了全台灣可以可能會有多少家的代孕服務機構"},{"start":14932.335,"end":14952.864,"text":"我們也是需要一定要成立這樣的機構目前沒有不是你的草案裡面說要成立代孕服務機構所以你們評估有可能我們有能力可以成立多少家嘛一定是我們評估有能力成立我才會去做這樣子的入法規劃嘛那評估會成立多少家"},{"start":14954.175,"end":14982.214,"text":"我們未來還是要看需求啊成立了沒有需求還是沒有問題那我問你 你的評估結果你覺得需要多少家嘛你做的法規 入法的規範難道不用做這法規前面的評估嗎你有多少能量有可能可以有多少家我們目前台灣相對應的這些機構或組織有多少有能力去做這件事情衛福部有沒有掌握嘛我的問題是這個嘛這是大家的問題啊這是大家的疑問啊"},{"start":14985.045,"end":15010.368,"text":"我想委員提的提的建議齁如果我們沒有把它理得太清楚我們會馬上來來來部長我要再繼續問了我也是把大家的問題要反映了對於孕母跟受託者來說最關鍵的事情就是這個叫做代孕契約之定型化內容與其應記載及不得記載事項這是最重要的事情那我要問衛福部這個會怎麼定"},{"start":15013.921,"end":15014.846,"text":"這個我們目前也是在討論當中"},{"start":15016.499,"end":15043.054,"text":"我的意思是說你在五月五月應該在朔前裡面你在五月的時候你做了這個草案的預告這個名詞出來以後大家對這個東西會有很多的疑問可是這幾個月下來很多相關的疑問都得不到衛福部的回答我自己覺得這是一件不太負責任的事情你把這個概念跟名詞跟法律入法丟出來了當大家都有疑問的時候你卻說沒有我這個還在討論中"},{"start":15045.376,"end":15065.16,"text":"部長,你覺得這是OK的嗎?你不用跟我講完整的內容,你要告訴我這個內容裡面可能會有什麼東西,或它的價值是什麼?因為這個議告以後大家有很多的意見,我們都一直在收集,在開專家會議啦,所以可能在時間上還沒有跟對外來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來"},{"start":15073.021,"end":15079.754,"text":"後續的調解機制是什麼在這裡面我們其實都沒有看到我要說的事情很簡單我自己並不全然反對代孕"},{"start":15081.633,"end":15104.283,"text":"我自己並不全然反映代孕但是對於社會上面對整體代孕機制尤其是對於孕母的保障的部分當時這幾個月下來提出很多的問題但這些問題到目前為止我都沒有看到衛福部進而進一步的出來回應這些具體的問題只看到衛福部啪一聲在五月的時候丟出一個草案裡面擺入了一個代孕的專章"},{"start":15106.169,"end":15106.189,"text":"部長"},{"start":15132.762,"end":15156.139,"text":"嗯...現在也不是專章啦,大概是...就是你把待遇放入法了嗎?專節啦。對,專節。你把待遇放入法了嗎?那因為都一直在討論當中,所以其實也有很多委員一直在催時程,但是我們也快不了,因為就是有這麼多的疑惑,我們需要去跟專家再討論、再釐清、再擔心。不然我只要說的一件很簡單的事情,再一點點時間齁。"},{"start":15157.62,"end":15185.951,"text":"今天代孕這一個事情事關重大我剛剛說了我也不全然反對可是確實社會有很多到底代孕這件事情怎麼運作它的機制是什麼遇到的問題該怎麼解決相關的問題我今天到目前為止我還是沒有辦法看到衛福部針對這些問題有一個相對清晰的回應如果沒有辦法有個清晰的回應一下子就要把這個代孕這件事情啪丟到法裡面"},{"start":15187.372,"end":15213.834,"text":"其實我覺得途征非常非常多的困擾也會讓相對比較沒有爭議的剛剛說到包括女同志或單身女性可以往前走的部分受到很多的拖延這是為什麼希望說是不是比較沒有爭議的部分可以先往前走因為大家也會有急的急迫的感覺至於代孕的部分我們把相關的問題跟解決的方案給釐清了以後要不要脫鉤處理或要不要另外處理我們不反對這個事情"},{"start":15216.126,"end":15238.581,"text":"首先這是概念是這個,所以我剛才是透過我希望能夠把大家有的疑問讓部長知道至少部長你應該知道到目前為止衛福部針對這些問題看起來我們一直以來我們包括所知也好包括詢問也好私底下詢問也好或在各個大大小小的場合都沒有聽到衛福部有具體而清晰解惑的回答"},{"start":15239.46,"end":15262.114,"text":"其實委員的...委員的所知我們都知無不言言無不盡阿是一定提出來阿就盡...但如果知無不言言無不盡現在沒辦法提出就代表覺得沒辦法解決嗎?可能還在專家的討論阿可能還在專家的討論部長我說你說知無不言言無不盡可是當大家提出來得不到回答難道是因為這些問題真的沒辦法解決嗎?可能還要再跟...因為有雙方面的意見所以必須要再..."},{"start":15263.829,"end":15291.111,"text":"所以我們現在也一直在開專家的會議啦是我知道但是衛福部還是有責任要告訴大家到底這些大家疑問的點或者是對保障擔憂的點你的具體的方案跟回應是什麼如果沒有辦法我覺得就不應該匆忙的包括我認為甚至是不負責任的就把一個這樣子的代孕的概念放到草案裡面你又沒有辦法回答又要放我不懂這邏輯是什麼"},{"start":15292.928,"end":15307.314,"text":"一般來講大概這個立法有很多執法規可以去解決的可以去處理的問題我知道執法規可以解決但我一樣要知道請問你所說的執法規是想要怎麼解決你不用現在給我看條文"},{"start":15307.654,"end":15309.235,"text":"但我希望不要再犯之前那個狀況之前的那個問題"},{"start":15324.582,"end":15324.702,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":15351.857,"end":15353.339,"text":"好 謝謝委員謝謝部長那繼續我們請黃婕委員質詢黃婕委員好謝謝主席請部長"},{"start":15375.182,"end":15396.682,"text":"好部長好呃針對剛剛其實傷害委員的問題我想要接續啦因為其實總結剛剛所有委員的問題我認為衛福部還沒準備好你們真的還沒準備好那如果依照你們現在的草案要上路我認為是非常非常非常不負責任的"},{"start":15397.883,"end":15414.876,"text":"為什麼要這樣講呢?其實我看完你們的草案我非常擔心啊。擔心什麼?因為其實民間,我不知道部長你知不知道在那個join平台上面有600多則的意見,針對你們的草案提出了大家的擔憂。請問你們有看嗎?你們有看嗎?有有有有,我們不但有看還是分類去請了開專家會議一直在討論。"},{"start":15424.147,"end":15425.748,"text":"好,那我隨便舉幾個大家的意見,第一個"},{"start":15451.776,"end":15469.184,"text":"請問這個代孕者裡面你們在草案的第22條裡面有寫到說現與有足月懷孕生產經驗而且沒有重大病發者這個是裡面的一個其中一個條件但是對於這樣子的條件他真的有辦法做到知情同意嗎"},{"start":15470.612,"end":15484.483,"text":"怎麼說呢就是如果他沒有任何活產的經驗就是他沒有真的成功生下小孩的經驗他有辦法知道說我知道接下來作為一個代理孕母他可能會遇到什麼樣的情況嗎"},{"start":15487.528,"end":15514.854,"text":"所以我們條文設計就是說要想成為代理姻母這件事他必須要有逐月順產的經驗他必須要有去媽媽的資格也有做孕婦的資格也都已經有那個經驗過了但我的意思是說他沒有生過嗎我們沒有規定我們規定他不可以的沒有生過就不可以啊所以在你們的文字裡面是有一定要生過小孩才可以一定要生過而且還是順產"},{"start":15516.496,"end":15536.05,"text":"好那這個就是必須要在文字裡面寫到非常清楚這就是民眾的疑問再來在這個22條裡面還有一個這個其實剛剛有提到就是你們針對這個身心評估的標準跟程序目前看起來是沒有任何細節的而且是一個空白的授權是這樣子嗎"},{"start":15537.608,"end":15564.87,"text":"我們已經在建置相關這些諮詢的機構還有它的條件還有諮詢的流程跟內容我們都已經有都正在建置完成已經建置完成了已經在建置當中已經在建置當中那我必須要說如果到時候照你們的這個版本出來如果沒有任何的具體的評估的程序以及標準沒有送出來之前這個版本是不能通過的好嗎可以嗎"},{"start":15567.729,"end":15590.744,"text":"我想通過跟公告實施啦應該是都在公告實施之前我們必須要把這些完備因為你們沒有讓民眾知道說接下來可能的程序可能的標準是什麼然後你就先通過了然後空白授權之後再來說我們實施之後等要實施了就會生出來這樣是一個負責任的表現嗎你們還沒有辦法解決民眾的疑問就要先通過這個空白授權的內容"},{"start":15594.326,"end":15594.987,"text":"署長,非常不負責任。"},{"start":15609.642,"end":15609.662,"text":"好嗎?"},{"start":15634.622,"end":15647.304,"text":"再來最後一個我認為你們也應該先把代孕的定型化契約拿出來因為你們現在也都沒有你嘛沒有你對吧有你啊為什麼沒有讓大家看"},{"start":15650.57,"end":15667.875,"text":"對啊沒有任何的內容然後就跟大家說反正我們先通過到時候契約的內容等你們定執法等你們要施行了再來決定這些文字白紙黑字先出來好不好先讓民眾先知道說接下來可能會遇到什麼情況是請問您是副署長副署長"},{"start":15669.135,"end":15692.516,"text":"報告委員那個有關那個所謂的那個應通報就是那個應記載跟不記載事項他是屬於契約內容不過我們一直有在開專家會議可是因為他不是屬於法定的預告內容我們現在目前是沒有預告所以這個就是我一直在說的你們就覺得他不是法定應該要預告的內容你們就不用讓民眾知道是這樣子嗎不是我們其實開會的時候相關的NGO團體都有來參加"},{"start":15696.039,"end":15723.806,"text":"所以呢不用讓民眾知道嗎?你們可以在這麼就是黑箱的程序之下不用解決民眾的疑慮然後就打算這樣草率的上路這是我最大的擔憂喔因為我認為在沒有完備所有這個代孕者的他的身體自主權以及尊重他的身體之前這樣的草案都是都不是正確的"},{"start":15724.446,"end":15746.19,"text":"所以當然我希望好我知道時間到了最後我希望說你們還是要考慮一下先脫鉤處理的可能性是不是沒有爭議的單身女性以及女同志就先讓她上路了有爭議的之後等你們把這些定型化契約身心評估的程序標準全部定出來之後我們再來好好的讓她細緻完整的上路啊好不好"},{"start":15746.53,"end":15746.93,"text":"我們請吳春成委員諮詢。"},{"start":15778.797,"end":15780.709,"text":"邀請衛福部邱部長"},{"start":15789.225,"end":15814.795,"text":"部長你辛苦了在開始我想邀請你一起跟我們那個昭緯蘇清泉昭緯致敬對於屏東的災情還有醫院的災情表達慰問同時我們蘇昭緯現在不僅一肩扛起所有責任而且還坐在這裡處變不驚"},{"start":15817.285,"end":15829.416,"text":"主持會議這是忍者跟勇者的精神那我們做所有事情都應該效法這種精神我們跟他表達敬意好不好來那個敬禮敬禮敬禮"},{"start":15833.373,"end":15835.314,"text":"今天這個少子化的問題,其實我看了我們所有的報告,我看得實在越來越沉重。"},{"start":15852.065,"end":15867.65,"text":"都是補助!補助!補助!哇!我們知道政府這麼有錢啦!這麼多東西都可以補助!社福預算都8300億了還一直補助喔!然後所以呢好了這個下一代之意真正少子化的原因就是"},{"start":15868.43,"end":15868.79,"text":"那現在呢?"},{"start":15893.351,"end":15918.338,"text":"有什麼解方我也沒有聽到什麼解方不是靠補助能夠解決這個問題的啦現在就撞世代是一個可行的方法把分子撞起來拉下來當分母不是成為一個寄生者依賴者能夠成為生產者消費者把我們的臺灣的底盤撞起來大家才有未來而且世代也會更和諧這個是你現在都講是是是就對了"},{"start":15920.9,"end":15922.081,"text":"接下來,龐大的高齡浪潮,這個叫英法海嘯,800萬人,85%"},{"start":15940.36,"end":15957.982,"text":"我們不能我們要避免人口土石流啦大家都崩壞都臥床啦所以必須要發展這個雙軌制有照護性跟發展性的這種政策壯實在就是一個發展性的政策那部長這個贊不贊成這樣的非常支持非常支持好謝謝"},{"start":15959.984,"end":15980.853,"text":"所以我們要把銀髮海嘯變成國家發展的動力。這個不是只有衛福部的事情。你知道我看著所有的部會把高齡的事情都丟給衛福部了。大家都不習慣了。所有的部會高齡的預算都不到1%。我今天早上還執行國科會的五層位。他說科技不能為特定人服務。"},{"start":15981.573,"end":16004.742,"text":"我說他說高齡人是特定人他沒有高齡的政策我說這個現在高齡者在人口三分之一咧三分之一叫特定人喔所以他們腦袋都沒有轉過來啦就覺得老人都打紅都面啦不用教育不用文化不用科技不用數位打紅都面啦啊大家紛紛倒下來都要推給你推推給衛福部你千萬不要一肩扛起好不好"},{"start":16005.862,"end":16007.003,"text":"臺灣為一半人口的事情全方位的事情齁"},{"start":16021.522,"end":16041.261,"text":"所以這裡其實我提了一個壯世代裡面有一個象限就是其實我們可以發展長壽經濟這經濟部也要做然後包括活化三分之二資產在他們手上要活化資產還有包括勞動部解放勞動力然後才有辦法好好的照顧我們這一些弱勢的社福世代平權所以我"},{"start":16041.821,"end":16047.103,"text":"政府應積極推動輔助壯士財產業發展並結合財稅及金融制度、土地及建物活用提供壯士財產業發展政策"},{"start":16058.446,"end":16087.069,"text":"培植新創級產業鏈,促進長壽經濟的發展。部長同不同意。非常同意。非常同意。謝謝。再請問部長同不同意。政府應建立壯世代的新形象,藉由合理的機制尊重維護世代共存共榮的新文化,並積極建立相關的文化產業。同不同意。這是一個國家應該做的。謝謝部長。再來就針對活躍性的解放勞動力。這裡請問部長同不同意。應該積極地推動壯世代的就業,建立合以媒合及培訓機制,"},{"start":16088.07,"end":16105.535,"text":"在尊重及反歧視原則下,創造壯士在適性就業環境並積極推動彈性工作,高利有向職場的指標及退休準備,如此可以有助於補充勞動市場所需勞動力與人才。部長同不同意?我記得我當召委的時候是通過了中高點就業的。對對對,那就是,那"},{"start":16110.456,"end":16132.342,"text":"接下來就安穩型的活化資產請問部長同不同意藉由資產的活化帶動經濟產業的發展是否應建立超高齡社會金融行動方案指標提供相關的金融商品或投資的鼓勵措施建構壯士代金融生態系並同時積極的提供壯士代普及公正的金融教育強化金融的勢能"},{"start":16132.602,"end":16138.045,"text":"政府應促成公私部門與學術機構的合作,促進狀態研究資源的運用,並成立或指定狀態生活需求長期性應用性基礎性的調查研究的專責單位"},{"start":16158.622,"end":16169.276,"text":"政府應與大學合作整合相關的教育資源培訓機構及團體協助建立以形塑良好的環境宣傳推廣原本及滿足第三男生需求的理念"},{"start":16169.696,"end":16171.759,"text":"政府應協助壯士代積極參與數位社會,創造數位平權環境,以使壯士代智慧資產有效貢獻社會。"},{"start":16189.447,"end":16215.179,"text":"上面所有的問題有一個關鍵就好像我舉個例子我在台大醫院教授如果退休像我是退休我是名義教授那年輕人都叫醫生出去不可以再進來不然我們都沒辦法開啦我們手術房都那個這個是一個很錯誤的觀念就是要老的不退年輕沒機會我的意思就是說他應該扮演什麼角色是未來整體要思考的所以這個基本上他參與"},{"start":16216.739,"end":16221.84,"text":"這一個就是明年進入台灣超高齡社會元年我們一起送給全民一個大禮物在82天就進入超高齡社會了所以呢這個會期"},{"start":16241.264,"end":16257.563,"text":"我們提出了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法部長你剛才幾乎同意了大部分的條文了所以在這個法案我們主審是在衛福部要請衛福部的全力支持而且這個是我們這一屆當中唯一一個"},{"start":16258.524,"end":16259.825,"text":"謝謝林委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請侯孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":16290.225,"end":16314.353,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請邱部長部長好部長今天關注少子化的對策跟成果這個書面報告本席非常認真仔細的把它給看完但是幾個部分我想還是要就教一下您認不認為現在我們台灣的少子化或是新生兒的這個負成長的狀況非常嚴重"},{"start":16317.899,"end":16345.216,"text":"應該是很重應該?不能講應該,您是主管機關欸0到2歲算是我們衛福部的主要責任欸您知不知道說2023年我們新生兒有多少人?十四十三萬五千沒關係,怕是可以打大聲一點或直接上來部長旁邊好不好我不是考,不是隨堂測驗但是總是最基本的數字要在心裡面嘛是那8月的新生兒有多少位?8萬多"},{"start":16348.297,"end":16353.18,"text":"8月到8月份11600多人到8月1月到8月是85000人"},{"start":16358.872,"end":16378.14,"text":"1月到8月是8萬5千人換言之過去8個月8萬5千人如果說這樣推估到今年12月底的時候這樣子的一個平均數應該是13萬人以內會比去年還要再少了5千人而今年是龍年"},{"start":16379.488,"end":16392.265,"text":"我們之前都講講說龍寶寶龍寶寶大家會覺得是說龍年的時候新生兒會比較多但是現在看起來今年只有13萬人甚至可能不到問題嚴不嚴重"},{"start":16394.355,"end":16421.16,"text":"嚴重嚴重真的嚴重部長剛剛我特別看一下你的這個報告裡面全部幾乎啦都是補貼補助較多立法院的預算中心這邊有提到少子化對策經費不管是衛福部跟11個部會共同推動總共我們合計編列有高達上千億元主要分三塊兒童教養公托以及友善生養的環境措施"},{"start":16422.02,"end":16428.397,"text":"部長這三項執行的部分您清不清楚執行率"},{"start":16432.84,"end":16460.231,"text":"說實在我直接說少子女化的對策我們有分四個方面那第一個0到2歲的前面照顧那這個部分都有在補助跟公托的推設立都有長足的進步那在兒童健康權益保護方面我們也成立了核心的醫院來解決兒童寒難、急然症還有重症的轉印等等的這些還有"},{"start":16461.351,"end":16463.414,"text":"那其實這三大對策裡面友善生養環境的執行率甚至不到7成"},{"start":16479.912,"end":16480.833,"text":"那部長本席只想要確認一下"},{"start":16507.591,"end":16526.62,"text":"我們花了那麼多的費用我不是講說這些費用不應該花喔如果說花有效的話執行有效的話當然我們應該投入而且少子女化本來就全世界大家都想要努力的目標但請告訴我因為今天的召委他其實的報告內容是成果跟未來規劃"},{"start":16528.39,"end":16547.682,"text":"那我們只想問一件事我們到今年投入了那麼多的預算衛福部投入那麼多的一個經費的時候但是看起來是負成長那我們有沒有預期至少我們可以達到什麼樣的成果我們能夠多增加多少的誘因還是說什麼時候我們可以擺脫變成是正成長部長心裡有沒有一個藍圖"},{"start":16551.104,"end":16576.082,"text":"我想這個牽涉到蠻多的啦,我們那個寶祖會願意好的環境,讓他願意生,也可以養,可是他是不是在價值觀的問題,今天也有人講嘛,不要結婚等等的這些問題,是不是在整體社會的一個社會的一個文化的一個"},{"start":16578.472,"end":16591.85,"text":"變遷齁,我們準備來調整,我個人是覺得怎麼樣,就像我跟蘇偉那個時代,我們醫學生齁,有人去娶老婆生孩子,我都覺得那是異例,但是現在醫學院是特設檔齁"},{"start":16602.899,"end":16615.869,"text":"時代在改變價值觀在改變沒有就像以前可能大家會覺得說代求結婚可能大家會覺得說比較羞於告訴別人但現在會覺得是雙喜臨門嘛這點我都理解但我的意思是說我們不能"},{"start":16616.529,"end":16633.621,"text":"政府部門做事跟一般的民間做事最大不同就是政府部門做事你投入了那麼多的預算你總是會有短期中期長期的一個成效那我們到底什麼時候我們預估成效是多少還是你現在投入那麼多的經費沒有辦法有任何一個目標"},{"start":16635.405,"end":16663.189,"text":"我知道我的時間有限但我還有另外一個嚴重的問題想要跟您就教在《煙害防治法》裡面在10月7號的時候預告期滿就是禁止添加使用物的部分對不對那總共這一次在兩個月裡面有多回收了一萬兩千多則的意見跟留言那其中大部分我們也都看過了其實最主要加味煙為什麼大家會覺得說它很嚴重就是因為加味煙在很多的學者"},{"start":16663.609,"end":16666.631,"text":"但是現在我們是從禁止花香果香巧克力等香口味變成禁27種添加物成分"},{"start":16684.295,"end":16698.267,"text":"那人民眾一般人還是會覺得疑惑到底進27種添加物的成分那就代表第28種第29種未來只要新興的不在這27種裡面的就是可以加了是這樣嗎"},{"start":16701.808,"end":16720.503,"text":"我們的方向是什麼我們的法條寫的就是禁止中央主管機關公告之添加物是但是這樣就變成你是正面表列你現在27種你如果說之後有28種29種或是其他的你沒有在那裡面的是不是菸商就可以把它加進去那就代表是說你就開了一個後門跟巧門給菸商嗎"},{"start":16721.943,"end":16737.776,"text":"年來的市總會正面表的也是滾動檢討滾動檢討但是現在大家看到的所有你這次公告兩個月之後所有的意見是不是多數人還是認為是說加味煙他是讓人家有疑慮的而且再者你們公告完之後是給18個月的緩衝期"},{"start":16746.328,"end":16752.998,"text":"而不是像之前煙害防治法47條行政院公布後一個月就要實施了為什麼還要再給18個月緩衝期"},{"start":16755.563,"end":16783.595,"text":"因為這些菸品假設它現在已經在市面流通了那你公告禁止它那這些市面流通的我們沒有辦法馬上叫它回收啊為什麼沒有辦法馬上叫它回收因為它本身就是如果說你認為這個東西這個東西我們法令禁止公告了如果說真的認為是說對於我們人體是有危害或是說對於會影響到青少年使用以及讓抽菸年齡不斷下修的話那就代表是說它可能有部分的疑慮"},{"start":16786.089,"end":16804.369,"text":"部長我特別查了一下我以前有抽菸啦學生時代有抽但現在真的是幾乎沒有但是我要問的是你知不知道菸品的保存期限是多久一包菸最長就一年半一年半18個月"},{"start":16805.874,"end":16826.047,"text":"所以你公告緩衝期18個月我不禁就認為說你根本就是幫煙商煙商好朋友欸等於是說當我們公告的時候跟你講說緩衝期有18個月剛好你現在市面上最近做出來的煙保存期就18個月所以你就是可以把你現在市面上18個月的煙都賣完那不就是煙商好朋友嗎"},{"start":16831.411,"end":16851.418,"text":"我們公告禁止以他製造阿所以公告禁止他製造以後所以製造完之後所有製造出來的都可以讓他在市面上賣完之後才會截止新做的都不能加入阿就不能在市面上來是阿所以說就變成是說你只要現在有的你都可以讓他賣完賣完在市面上所有賣完你覺得這樣子合理嗎你怎麼會那麼的量身打造阿"},{"start":16858.309,"end":16885.089,"text":"煙品剛好保存期限18個月我的公告緩衝期就是18個月有這麼好的事情有這麼多好的事情部長之後你們這個法條還會再修正之後才會再拿出來提出政願然後再送到立法院嘛對不對是不是部長我真的希望是聽到民眾聽到社會大眾的意見好"},{"start":16885.93,"end":16886.33,"text":"這是我們的方向,謝謝。"},{"start":16911.944,"end":16915.187,"text":"謝謝副委員謝謝部長繼續我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席楊瓊發言邀請部長部長請"},{"start":16932.625,"end":16958.293,"text":"委員好部長好我要跟你討論電價的問題是因為這一次呢在電價審議委員會他就通過要漲價漲價了之後我們發覺到醫療院所24小時不能斷電ICU開刀房更是要低溫才能夠殺菌在這樣的情況之下如果在這個階段又把醫療院所"},{"start":16959.153,"end":16983.749,"text":"的這個店家長了14%那這個真的是白色巨塔的噩夢對不對所以我們大家跟著我們的召委大家一起反應終於部長也聽到了院長也聽到了所以他就在隔天就公告了我們的這個醫療院所他"},{"start":16985.128,"end":17012.182,"text":"他是什麼?不是部長喔,而是董長,對不對?當你提到你聽到董長的時候,你是不是說會怕怕不怕?我們反應了,他董長。我們不反應,他就順勢給你長。但是你是這個一屆的大家長。我們看到這樣子想要強度關山,還好被我們攔住了。但是這是短暫的。"},{"start":17013.775,"end":17020.706,"text":"所以針對於醫療院所的電力的問題你有什麼看法怎麼協助他們"},{"start":17022.293,"end":17044.561,"text":"是因為的確齁因為如果讓醫療院所能夠順利運作才能夠照顧好人民的健康所以我想感謝各位委員齁幫助醫療院所讓他們能夠更加的能夠順暢來運作就是我們務必要全力以赴但是一朝被蛇咬十年怕草啊沒關係啦因為這次我講這次齁就是說"},{"start":17047.882,"end":17067.807,"text":"因為這是審議委員會,他也沒有去分清楚,他覺得這是農藝業什麼什麼,所以受益就在動,受益動長。所以當你噴到這樣子的面,你怎麼處置?我們當然去反映說醫療跟,我想我們的心情都跟委員一樣。你怎麼來什麼動作,來協助我們的醫療院所?"},{"start":17072.288,"end":17091.535,"text":"你要有動作啊你是大家長欸對不對有兩個意見第一個告訴政府醫療院所不能去照顧全民這是立足點最重要的公平點認不認同要不要去講有這個我們都有反應第一個第二個有人就呼籲"},{"start":17092.731,"end":17106.719,"text":"也就是說萬一他如果真的要漲我們怎麼辦那也不能倒這是生命只有一個非常嚴肅的議題所以因此是不是應該要編列公務預算來補助我們的醫療院所的電價有沒有這個思維"},{"start":17112.762,"end":17140.126,"text":"有人提出這樣子所以本席要提出這也是可以研議的一個方法研議的方法我請你研議好不好因為我覺得醫生啊醫療院所你不要再煩惱了他全力的一道專業來照顧人民的健康好不好所以你說這個是一個方向你去研議好不好我完全是站在怎麼樣維護全民的健康一定要有好的醫療院所來照顧好你就研議大概多久時間可以告訴本席"},{"start":17141.337,"end":17142.542,"text":"在外國可以告訴我這個方案"},{"start":17143.953,"end":17146.735,"text":"那你多久可以告訴我你的方案?"},{"start":17172.627,"end":17175.823,"text":"讓醫界放心嘛安心嘛你多久可以提出"},{"start":17176.772,"end":17203.29,"text":"我想我們原理一個月就...一個月告訴我們是不是會用公務預算編列來撥補我們的醫療院所的電費這個調漲的電價我想只要合理的只要我們爭取有道理我相信以目前的行政院都會盡量支持我全力支持你你趕快幫我編列好不好我全力支持"},{"start":17207.512,"end":17225.541,"text":"在一個議題告訴你新冠肺炎呢感染了這30天內的死亡率那麼呢他跟他相對你非再次感染的我還比較起來是4.29倍在這樣的情況之下我們又用年齡層的級距來討論18到49歲的族群來作為65歲到74歲他的風險是高於65到74"},{"start":17234.965,"end":17260.375,"text":"風險是高於22.7倍75歲以上的長輩是116.4倍在這樣情況之下如果我們有預防性只要有症狀就篩檢才不會又再次感染所以本席要跟你討論的是說那麼我們也曾經碰到很多的陳情案件他不知道他又得了新冠所以他又去看長輩結果長輩感染了一個月後沒了"},{"start":17263.536,"end":17278.149,"text":"哇 這個很難過的事情這個是可以預防的所以本席要請教在這樣的情況之下我們到底我們新冠的防疫預算我竟然看到明年的預算是零欸我嚇一跳"},{"start":17279.802,"end":17304.005,"text":"為什麼明年的預算是零呢?有兩個因素第一個你認為完全管共不可能我給你答案不可能第二個你掉以輕心所以我請教部長在這樣的情況之下你要怎麼樣趁著現在預算重溢的時候你應該要把這筆預算要放上去吧真正的照顧人民吧請做說明"},{"start":17304.755,"end":17320.712,"text":"好 謝謝委員 這個我有跟集官署做詳細的討論第一個就是我們在12月底還有一筆錢可以購買那個藥物或相關的那個疫苗還有藥物 藥物現在的準備大概"},{"start":17322.261,"end":17344.531,"text":"23"},{"start":17344.551,"end":17344.711,"text":"那當然那個"},{"start":17369.696,"end":17384.088,"text":"部長,你超前來預防勝過於你後面治療所要花的費用嘛,好不好?本期具體提出,我希望得到你的支持,好不好?是。好,是就是支持喔。"},{"start":17385.014,"end":17385.134,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":17415.066,"end":17424.811,"text":"接續我們請何欣淳委員質詢。好,我們請邱部長。"},{"start":17436.074,"end":17462.696,"text":"部長好首先針對那個我們基層的醫療院所的電價動漲我相信部長一定是有極力的主張跟發聲這個醫療單位就是醫人救命所以這個是必須要動漲那我也很高興行政院也接受了大家的意見在電價動漲的這一個部分有納入了基層的醫療"},{"start":17463.857,"end":17492.06,"text":"在這邊也謝謝何委員長期對醫療驗手的照顧是一起那我今天要質詢的是有關雖然今天的主題叫少子化對策我個人是非常主張也大力的來呼籲希望這個中央政府能夠成立這個少子化對策的一個專責單位那在還沒有成立專責單位之前我相信針對兒童托育服務法的這個的院板不知道部長"},{"start":17493.376,"end":17513.102,"text":"你知道嗎?院版在哪裡?我跟其他另外一個委員我有一個版本那林月琴委員也有一個版本那我們兩個版本都是希望說在少子女化的對策裡面最重要的一環就是兒童托育那能夠有專法"},{"start":17514.522,"end":17514.962,"text":"還在拼啊?"},{"start":17538.599,"end":17558.316,"text":"當然要一直拼了。還在拼。這個願板是早就承諾的,那也在中央很大的討論是認為行政院必須要有願板,因為兒童托育服務是一個非常重要的一環,尤其在少子女化"},{"start":17559.196,"end":17584.264,"text":"對策裡面這個非常重要那很多年輕的家庭甚至呢在我們這麼多件的這個不管是兒女也好或者是呢兒女童其他的包括有一些不好的保姆啦或者是有一些不好的一個托嬰中心啊在托嬰服務裡面如果真的有出了什麼事情大家都一下子找衛生福利部一下子找哪個單位一下怎樣"},{"start":17584.824,"end":17608.658,"text":"那大家都認為應該第一個資源整合第二個應該專法能夠呢來做一個整合的一個專法依靠的平台希望提供更周全更安全的一個兒童托育嘛對不對所以這個專法實在是刻不容緩啦所以我們有版本了所以我拜託衛生福利部可不可以快一點我們希望有原版當然呢"},{"start":17609.218,"end":17623.917,"text":"一起來討論、一起來建構、一起來讓專法早一日的立法通過,可以嗎?部長。是的。包委員,從我過去擔任8年的立委,我的經驗是有M版的話比較好討論。"},{"start":17624.978,"end":17648.235,"text":"有願板的話比較好討論嗎?我可以講如果你願板到時候再不出來的話今年你再不出來的話那我就要拜託召委我們委員的板板要先審喔負責的單位要趕快提出來是嘛因為我們今天討論的主題裡面在我最重視的很多的年輕家庭很多的家長阿公阿嬤"},{"start":17649.616,"end":17649.636,"text":"閱讀者"},{"start":17676.474,"end":17699.021,"text":"非常的嚴峻的是剛剛你講的一個數字啊臺灣的生育率是全球倒數第一啊第二那所以呢對我們來講少子女化就是國安問題那呢必須把孩子的事情當作是國家的事情那這也是賴清德總統所宣誓出來的啊對不對部長所以呢在少子女化對策裡面"},{"start":17699.741,"end":17717.353,"text":"我剛剛講的第一個我認為應該成立專責單位第二個我們在很多的利多誘因的方面一定要再加強那很多的補助的預算是在我們衛生福利部那我認為的除了補助預算之外呢更重要的是建立他的"},{"start":17718.336,"end":17735.623,"text":"﹗"},{"start":17735.623,"end":17751.596,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":17752.456,"end":17760.26,"text":"第3個我要跟你討論的我今天特別找貴部的國建署跟教育部國教署來我們在談我們剛剛在講嬰幼兒然後嬰幼兒到來就是這個3到6歲再來就是小學中學兒童勢力的問題"},{"start":17782.964,"end":17811.861,"text":"根據我Google到的數據全台灣22個縣市裡面兒童勢力平均值較差的叫做基隆那六都的裡面兒童勢力平均值較差的最差的叫做台中那我是台中選出來的立委我就在想說部長我們對於學童的勢力這個現場應該我看一看大概超過七八成以上都戴眼鏡"},{"start":17813.422,"end":17830.451,"text":"我們這個年代已經來不及拯救那我們對未來我們的孩子現在的孩子我們要來得及拯救所以我拜託部長能夠大力的支持國建署未來要跟教育部國教署要合作提出針對"},{"start":17831.671,"end":17847.061,"text":"我們的第一個國小國中的學童勢力的一個我們要如何的去保護我們要預防剩餘治療我們如何及早的去做第二個我知道還有未來要下到"},{"start":17848.522,"end":17865.344,"text":"5歲到6歲就是我們幼兒園的大班希望能夠及早進入校園能夠面對孩子幫他們篩檢幫他們檢視他們的視力問題有問題要及早治療所以要請部長全力來支持好不好"},{"start":17865.871,"end":17893.66,"text":"我非常重視這個協同的資歷所以非常重視很重視齁所以拜託有計畫有預算拜託部裡面全力支持好不好而且台中要請多幫幫忙謝謝謝謝謝謝何委員我們休息三分鐘大家膀胱受不了了我們全部執行完畢再上會不休息了"},{"start":18117.694,"end":18132.607,"text":"好 大家都辛苦了 各位委員各位官員辛苦了那下一位我們請李景委員質詢謝主席 有請邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":18143.379,"end":18171.314,"text":"委員好部長好今天要從勞動的角度來跟您探討代理孕母的問題我想代理孕母她從懷孕到生產的過程當然就是一個勞動的過程而且還是一個9個多月不分晝夜涉及生命安全以及身心健康所以是高強度高風險的勞動過程那台灣有一部規範勞動權益的法律就是大家耳熟能詳的勞動基準法"},{"start":18173.255,"end":18199.235,"text":"這部法令從1984年頒布到已經40年了過勞、高工時、血汗、加班這是現在臺灣勞動現場的代名詞所以透過勞基法施行的經驗我們可以了解到法律文字定是一回事實際上的勞動關係又長得又是另外一個樣子那請教部長那如果連我們的勞動者"},{"start":18202.059,"end":18202.079,"text":"部長"},{"start":18227.252,"end":18242.746,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個問題是一個值得真的是值得思考的問題令人敬佩來討論到這樣的一個保護在這個部分我們國建署也有做相關的研議"},{"start":18245.638,"end":18262.336,"text":"我想印母懷孕這件事情是非常嚴肅也非常專業的而且是非常辛苦的啦是高勞動他跟職場勞動高風險是有一點但是他的高風險沒有錯所以我們會有相關的一些計畫規來做相關的一些規範"},{"start":18263.177,"end":18292.109,"text":"嗯所以必須如果這個規範必須是要重演假設這個法過我們必須要做重演是好那我想有部分人士表示就是說在我國代理孕母的制度還沒有合法化了這段時間那極度渴望擁有自己血緣血脈的這個伴侶他必須要花大錢到國外去找這個代理孕母的勞動供給那我想國外非代理"},{"start":18292.329,"end":18313.507,"text":" ︎"},{"start":18313.707,"end":18313.807,"text":"我講這個部分"},{"start":18334.93,"end":18360.763,"text":"國税署其實都討論過也有做NG的規定那至於說其他的有沒有其他的考量是不是吳市長有沒有要補充因為我剛提的嘛就是說我們的醫療好讓我們性別相對友善我們也是民主法制就是說我們的條件其實比國外都好那我們如果一旦通過了那我們是不是成為一個全球的升職工廠"},{"start":18362.489,"end":18383.652,"text":"我剛剛提到的特別是跟委員報告我們對於受委託成為代理義母的規範他大概必須要有一定的年齡限制而且他必須要有順胎產的經驗當然當然可是這不必然台灣就不會成為生殖工廠這個要成為生殖工廠我認為"},{"start":18384.833,"end":18409.863,"text":"不是那麼容易因為衛福部的草案當然你們有設就代孕委託者不管是國籍或居住時間的限制或者至少在台灣要有社友戶籍等等或者說另外一方要在台灣居住183天以上可是部長我還是覺得這樣的規範不夠充足因為我有認真看你們的草案那我覺得你必須還要有其他重演的防治的措施"},{"start":18410.623,"end":18427.836,"text":"是不是?是,我們委員的建議,我們回去再檢討,一定檢討。好,我最後再次呼籲,就是說當我們要討論代理孕母這個制度的時候,請看見女性的處境,而不是又是一個生殖工具罷了。那最後"},{"start":18429.417,"end":18446.915,"text":"30秒時間跟部長討論一下我總諮詢的時候跟你提到樂生療養院的問題那我想隨著這個院設陸續整修完成那近兩年要開放院民搬回他熟悉的這個院區來居住可是現在樂生院他要求僅限一名照顧者"},{"start":18447.756,"end":18474.36,"text":"﹗"},{"start":18474.82,"end":18497.617,"text":"協助願民回歸社區與家庭的這個承諾同時我想願民的居住權又一次的受威脅部長你有沒有這樣認為這個要看一下他們規定的原因那我們是很關心他目前是這樣規定像中秋節我就到那邊跟這些六十幾個阿公阿嬤一起一起吃個中秋團飯唱個歌這樣子"},{"start":18500.393,"end":18500.953,"text":"接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":18537.168,"end":18537.872,"text":"主席有請部長部長"},{"start":18544.713,"end":18568.519,"text":"部長,監察院上個月糾正衛福部,認為家外安置兒少中有15%特殊需求的兒少長期安置在成人機構當中。衛福部疏於督導地方政府,復起定期評估相關安置作為是否符合兒少最佳利益。監察院也通過糾正衛福部。我想請教一下,"},{"start":18569.039,"end":18582.483,"text":"現在家外安置兒少當中有發展遲緩或領有身心障礙證明的特殊兒少在民國110年是多少人?我這邊數字是718人那111年是993人這數字對嗎?我看到數字是這樣對不對?正確那到112年變多少人?"},{"start":18597.81,"end":18601.957,"text":"短短三年成長了快要一倍我這個數字蠻驚人的為什麼呢?部長為什麼會暴增?"},{"start":18608.285,"end":18610.246,"text":"除了說這個數字暴增,它馬上就連帶會影響到一件事嗎?什麼事?"},{"start":18635.118,"end":18636.839,"text":"目前那個安置的量確實是不足"},{"start":18664.302,"end":18666.015,"text":"現在解決方式是什麼?"},{"start":18667.511,"end":18692.998,"text":"當然第一個我們還是還是應該要成長在原神的家庭對所以我們如果是發現這個不當的對待原則上我們還是跟家庭來做工作希望他做改善我們現在看到監察院的那個糾正其實主要就講因為安置這前提是安置能量不夠嘛結果就發生了15%是安置在一般護理之家身障福利機構長照機構精神復健機構這樣做法有什麼問題合理嗎"},{"start":18695.889,"end":18717.365,"text":"法務委員,我想我們最重要的目的真的就是要希望能夠回歸到原生家庭,或者是他的寄養...可是我現在暫時你就...我們可以...第一個就是說我們要求地方政府一定要去關心這個部分,第二個部分我們跟教育部...我跟部長說,關心也不夠啦。是。"},{"start":18717.805,"end":18734.637,"text":"因為事實上成人機構的人力跟專業職能資源不足他就跟前面我剛剛講的量就暴增所以我也沒特別苛求啊或覺得說一定要嚴格的苛責不管是中央跟地方因為你剛剛就看到那個量增加快一倍說這那種三年順增的量"},{"start":18735.518,"end":18744.18,"text":"你其實會產生這種問題就跟你的量暴增有關但是衛福部作為主管機關就這個問題你就要想辦法去解決那否則的話像成人機構這種狀況其實兒少在那邊他也很難滿足兒少適應同儕互動這些需求"},{"start":18753.763,"end":18777.484,"text":"所以才會出現今天監察院糾正的這個問題嘛那我自己是一個具體的一個建議就是說現在你看到目前有需求安置的需求的一些兒少有69.3%安置超過2年甚至有4成打5年以上有38人已經超過已經10年那36.3%是輕度或中度智能障礙"},{"start":18778.164,"end":18794.129,"text":"超過4城市跨峽安置45%未滿12歲那有三分之一無語言能力這些都是今天我覺得我們現在面臨我覺得還蠻嚴峻的問題但我真的拜託我們衛福部你們有一個專門的報告說你怎麼解決這個問題特別是資源端"},{"start":18794.989,"end":18795.45,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":18823.362,"end":18824.469,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長"},{"start":18831.343,"end":18858.609,"text":"非常好因為剛羅委員問的那個題目我其實也蠻想延續的齁因為其實我們這個找療的人口是越來越增加不管是安置兒或是一班兒其實大家都要排隊排非常久的時間平均3到5個月才能夠去做到這些評估所以我也認為說我們其實應該要怎麼樣去提高這個量能讓小孩子不用等那麼久因為找療每一分每一秒都是非常之珍貴的所以我想這個題目我不曉得說現在我們到各縣市分部的這個找療的量能是多少現在是有相關的數據可以提供嗎"},{"start":18859.44,"end":18889.138,"text":"是的,因為我們有臨床的經驗齁,早要做得好的話,它後面的小孩子的成長是沒有錯,所以我想知道現在的量能,到底都好像怎麼樣?請問委員是說後面的服務的部分,還是前面的評估的部分?我們的加速,我們到底有現在有多少評估?評估的嗎?對,評估的加速目前我們全國有85家的評估中心,那有10家的重點評估,重點評估就是說,它沒有辦法,沒有辦法計劃各縣市、二所縣市,我們分區域的,每個縣市當然都一定要有這樣的服務量能"},{"start":18889.258,"end":18917.757,"text":"好因為我想因為這個題目我想我們約個時間來好好的看一下各縣市的分部因為現在我想知道的就是桃竹的地方到底為什麼大家要等那麼久那接下來就進入我今天原本的那個題目就是說今年就是因為台北市這個信義區這個幼兒園的一案之後呢我們衛福部很快就是在8月份的時候就頒訂了一個叫做媒體報導兒少及性暴力指引也有開始研擬如何完善這個法規這一點我覺得必須要肯定"},{"start":18919.678,"end":18940.869,"text":"8月10日我也召開了一個叫性平案件是否納入兒童及少年福利與權利保障法第49條及第97條公佈姓名之列那會議記錄裡面呢是告訴我們說是有是有的是有把校園性平案件納入其中的但是現在有一個問題來看一下這個流程他怎麼沒有動好"},{"start":18946.306,"end":18964.942,"text":"來看一下這個流程就是說我們現在性平案件就是說發生的時候我們是要教育部先教育單位要先調查之後社政單位會介入然後要公佈名稱的話就要再確認這個案情內容才會決議是否要公佈在我們社政的相關網站對嗎這沒有錯那我們現在有一個案例"},{"start":18971.482,"end":18984.7,"text":"我們有一個陳情案他是在2021年最後一次被受害人燒了被燒了2023年6月大概花了一年半的時間兩年半的時間他鼓起勇氣了來向學校來檢舉這個加害人"},{"start":18986.502,"end":19012.047,"text":"那教育部、學校也非常依循這個法規在14個月之內也就確認了這個加害人有一個不法的行為那今年初因為這個幼兒園的事件之後我們也非常感謝衛福部和教育部來清查這三年內的一個性平案件那因為清查就花了一些時間所以清查完的時候是2024年的8月了所以就超過了行政法三年的時間"},{"start":19012.807,"end":19036.63,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":19037.715,"end":19053.318,"text":"我想這樣的流程這麼久導致於無法來保護這個是一個很需要檢討的那我想知道說現在已經有一些可能在這個已經調出來我們可以怎麼做呢?我們有什麼做法嗎?"},{"start":19054.56,"end":19069.892,"text":"謝謝委員我想分成兩個層面第一個97條他的確是有這個所謂的公佈姓名這件事那這一案他有兩個問題第一個就是說他是不是當時就已經這個被調查處分"},{"start":19072.774,"end":19101.429,"text":"只是他沒有做97條的公佈姓名這個是一個問題但如果說是這樣因此他在姓平的處罰上面應該也列入不適任的人員的名冊但是我們現在講的是公佈嘛但是我說現在是我們不能夠公開嘛因為我們必須要公開我才會知道說家長去搜尋才會知道說我好像被這個教練教過我被這個老師教過我才有辦法的去知道我小孩是不是有受到什麼樣的狀況如果他在社福法規裡頭他沒有被公佈"},{"start":19101.769,"end":19103.57,"text":"其實兩年半他才敢講出來其實已經高於平均值了"},{"start":19127.841,"end":19143.865,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":19144.465,"end":19170.264,"text":"目前性騷擾防治法有把這個未成年遭受性騷擾它把它延長到成年後還可以再來提出所以我想確認一下所以我們現在之前性騷擾追溯期是10年嗎之前那個邱部長在修這個性平三法的時候你也是修法成員嘛性騷擾追溯期10年強制性交易還有這個強制猥褻的追溯期都是20年"},{"start":19171.525,"end":19195.921,"text":"那我們行政這個兒少權法的行政採取規範是不是也可以因為我們現在在修兒少權法嘛我們是不是可以一併的來考慮一起來修正對可以考慮可以考慮好那我想我們因為這個兒少權法的進度其實大家都非常的關心大家都非常想要知道我們到底兒少權法的一個進度因為其實牽扯到還有就是說我們兒虐事件就是這幾年啦雖然就是說通報數有增加"},{"start":19196.721,"end":19197.361,"text":"接下來我們請圖全吉委員發言"},{"start":19232.602,"end":19236.024,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那不好意思麻煩一下我們邱部長。謝謝部長。好,部長,請問一下,那不知道我們本席這次有觀察到今年比往年發生更多的社會案件,那當然也搞得我們社會人心惶惶,那不知道這部分部長有沒有注意到?"},{"start":19260.421,"end":19275.539,"text":"對沒關係因為據我們目前看到發生很多社會案件像我們最近有看到學校同儕之間發生口角就把利器將人割喉致死還有多年照顧"},{"start":19277.245,"end":19303.686,"text":"施能施治者不堪照顧的沉重壓力殺死至親這個案件那這些悲劇也一再證明我們社會安全網仍有破口,不知道部長認同嗎?是,我想社會安全網我們過去幾年來真的是一直在努力但是可能還是沒有辦法完全的周全我們一定全力來改善"},{"start":19304.929,"end":19325.618,"text":"那這一部分其實我們有注意到那如果公權力可以提早介入像這個新北戈壕跟高雄市母案這些事情如果公權力如果能夠提早介入這個憾事就能夠避免發生那陽性國中今年也可以平安的就讀高中"},{"start":19325.998,"end":19351.834,"text":"﹗"},{"start":19352.635,"end":19373.239,"text":"父親離異再婚母親自殺那繼母又因為毒品坐牢那衛祖父是槍炮案然後高雄四母案他的加害者是代業四個人同住一個家庭但是重點父母都領有身心障礙的手冊三人代業那個正父他是唯一"},{"start":19373.439,"end":19392.346,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":19392.737,"end":19418.805,"text":"是 是的 謝謝委員對這件事情的關心吼 那我們也有做檢討啦吼 那在橫向的方面當然就是教育體系跟那個關乎體系的一個連接點吼 這個部分是不是可以再緊密一點吼 那當然我們衛福部都會在社會安全網方面提供更多的資源來"},{"start":19425.209,"end":19443.835,"text":"因為這些事情其實我們認為政府應該要在事前明明這些他就應該政府早就掌握這些訊息事前就可以防治但是這些事情確實每次發生後才去現場瞭解所以我們說是不是他這個機制產生了問題那"},{"start":19445.856,"end":19467.687,"text":"說實在話是不是我們針對社會這個漏網的媒介社工的部分是不是因為社工的部分真的太短缺了社工的部分如果割喉案的部分呢一個孩子在學校其實學校的確也有專輔人員然後再來他因為他是偏差少年"},{"start":19468.211,"end":19486.876,"text":"所以他也有關乎體系的關乎的這個關乎的這個我們的關乎人所以在網絡跟網絡之間彼此互相在資訊上面還有這個連結上面可以更緊密我想就如委員說的這個漏網之魚事實上是可以攔得到的"},{"start":19487.438,"end":19509.426,"text":"對啊 所以我們認為應該要加強我們衛福部保護性志工這一部分要加強可是據我們了解好像這些志工好像面臨是不是現在都面臨三高三缺的問題部長你知道三高三缺嗎是志工還是社工保護性社工保護性社工"},{"start":19511.575,"end":19531.204,"text":"對,因為今天保護性社工會這麼缺乏,據我們了解這三高就是剛剛講的高案量、高風險、高壓力那三缺就是缺合作、缺督導、缺資源"},{"start":19531.864,"end":19560.516,"text":"那這些保護性社工缺乏所以我們一直認為政府早在這些就應該要事前先去做結果每次都是發生之後我們再去了解以後是發生了什麼情形我們覺得這麼多的社會案件你看這尤其這兩件喔它本來就應該是我們政府早就掌握資訊了可是並沒有事前去做所以我們一直認為應該是預防重瑜治療對不對"},{"start":19562.873,"end":19587.053,"text":"是的是的所以重點我們衛福部有沒有針對這部分去做檢討你看六都沒有一個縣市的社工是足兒的而且這個離職率還是都非常非常的高你看我們台南台南的這個離職率比護理師的離職率還高那針對這部分衛福部有沒有提出一些檢討的辦法"},{"start":19589.082,"end":19602.516,"text":"我在這邊還是要特別強調社工工作的多元化跟辛苦那我想衛務部應該提出更積極的計畫來留住社工的人才"},{"start":19603.496,"end":19604.997,"text":"謝謝委員我們在行政院推動強化社會安全網的第二期計畫裡頭"},{"start":19625.384,"end":19640.401,"text":" ︎"},{"start":19640.481,"end":19661.483,"text":"然後再來他把他的職位有做了一些增加也就是我們把這個資深的社工多了一個資深社工這樣的一個調整讓他的這個深圈管道他的天花板拉高所以這些還有加強他的專業訓練這些都是在整體上我們想留住人才的一些措施"},{"start":19662.761,"end":19691.855,"text":"對 所以這邊今天講這個凸顯這個問題啦因為保護性社工這個問題我們希望趕快因為已經知道原因了那衛福部就應該趕快去克服不應該讓這些憾事一再的發生像這些事情你看針對學生這個暴險少年還有這個社會的弱勢群體我們早就應該是預防重於治療那如果把這個社工的人數趕快去看怎麼樣去補足"},{"start":19692.295,"end":19693.635,"text":"好,還有針對我們最近也有發生"},{"start":19716.806,"end":19736.954,"text":"幼兒園,現在人家講幼兒在幼兒園到底安不安全,現在又發生孩童教保園治三肋兒監視器的畫面,就我們新北永和分校有發生這件事情,那個部長你知道這個案件嗎?"},{"start":19740.505,"end":19752.539,"text":"那是幼兒園教育部主管那針對我們社家屬是不是本身在今年有要針對全台的監管員上線那目前情形到底如何"},{"start":19756.715,"end":19757.215,"text":"但是我們現在發現一個問題喔"},{"start":19787.115,"end":19808.792,"text":"衛福部托嬰中心監視錄影設備的設置及資訊管理利用辦法這第3條他針對指定場所安置監視設備那我沒有看到這個條例但是如果他沒有安裝的話有沒有有沒有罰則有依照兒少權法是有罰則有訂定罰則嗎有"},{"start":19810.717,"end":19828.397,"text":"已經有訂定法則了目前托嬰中心就應該要裝監視器如果他沒有裝是有法則的好那針對我們這次幼兒園發生他說什麼監視器硬碟損壞沒有盡快修復沒有辦法提供畫面那這部分也有法則嗎"},{"start":19830.152,"end":19856.089,"text":"跟委員報告這個幼兒園因為是教育部主管那我們衛福部是主管0到20歲的托嬰中心對那針對這部分沒有做沒有沒有修復這些部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有針對剛剛我講的衛福部托嬰中心這個監視器設置設備如果沒有做或者他說硬碟損壞沒有辦法提供畫面你有這個條例可是好像我們沒有看到這個罰則"},{"start":19859.123,"end":19879.308,"text":"我們的通音中心如果他沒有這個裝監視錄影帶這些都有法則因為我們地方政府的人員都會去查核那這是依照兒少權法裡面的明定通音中心必須要裝監視器那幼兒園是教育部主管那教育部並沒有對幼兒園一定強制性的要求要裝飾那個監視器"},{"start":19882.926,"end":19895.27,"text":"而少前法有規定透明中心應該要裝置監視錄影設備而且要保存30天阿如果他沒辦法提供影像可以限期改善或者是新台幣3萬以上30萬以下的花款"},{"start":19898.635,"end":19920.466,"text":"我們希望衛福部針對監管員這部分盡快趕快如期上線還有也要針對我們這些監視器該安裝沒有安裝甚至該提供他沒有辦法提供我覺得要訂定一個相關明確的針對這些法令還有這些配套一定要訂定明確然後針對監管員到時候"},{"start":19923.387,"end":19923.427,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":19953.39,"end":19964.196,"text":"徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在請陳佩玉委員發言謝謝主席那有請部長請部長"},{"start":19978.755,"end":20006.502,"text":"委員長部長辛苦了吼午安我想我們就快速來進入主題我國人工生殖法法制化的進度我想要問一下今天早上非常多委員也都問過了我想要幫部長複習一下其實之前衛福部有兩場公聽會衛環委員會也有公聽會可是當時我要談一下當時衛福部在公聽會上的立場說沒有既定立場有非常多專家學者會給予建議還會聽非常多有這個需求的朋友的建議"},{"start":20008.323,"end":20026.962,"text":"目前我們知道其實女童性配偶還有單身女性至於要不要納入代理孕母的版本在2024年8月19號中央社這個新聞我們看到部長你說盡可能希望在兩個月內把更好的人工生殖法草案送到立法院部長我可以問一下目前進度跟這個相關的規劃"},{"start":20030.236,"end":20057.647,"text":"如果以進度表演的話我們因為預告以後收集了600多則的意見所以我們最近也開了五場六場的專家的討論會那我們希望把一些疑慮爭議那今天當然也聽到一些大家的聲音那我們請國建署再好好的在演繹希望如果以原來的規劃是西洋11頁到衛福部能夠"},{"start":20059.062,"end":20060.265,"text":"那部長你自己在這幾場公聽會裡面你覺得最有爭議的點會是什麼?"},{"start":20074.036,"end":20091.892,"text":"對我來說我覺得裡面最重要我想要談一下其實從開放給女同性配偶使用人工生殖從2019年開始原本他們只能用寄親收養的方法到了後來去年修法開放同性可以共同收養基本上我們對於同志家庭的權益保障已經越來越好了"},{"start":20093.013,"end":20114.618,"text":"但是對於你同性配我想要透過人工生殖技術生育子女的部分因為我覺得進展實在很慢那如同部長你剛剛說的到11月到12月那目前我們看到你們草案的版本裡面在這個部分確實有一些討論可是我要說的是在這樣的討論情況下那關於人工生殖的部分關於這個代孕的部分我覺得"},{"start":20115.538,"end":20138.712,"text":"﹗"},{"start":20138.992,"end":20155.724,"text":"但現在婚跟育我覺得是有機會脫鉤的討論的這個進步氛圍底下也許衛福部在很多的考量上可以把這件事情考慮進去好不好部長是的那我想要分享一個案例之前有個新聞就這兩天彩虹平泉大平台的理事長"},{"start":20156.485,"end":20177.977,"text":"前一陣子在美國代孕的小孩出生了9月27號出生可是他之前代孕失敗了兩三次那也就是說確實在第一線的現場有人有這樣代孕的需求可是我們當然也聽到有非常多民眾如同部長您剛說的有600多則留言對於代孕這件事情是有疑慮的所以我要提醒部長在相關的法案版本要出爐之前在這件事情上討論"},{"start":20178.757,"end":20190.944,"text":"我的態度是持開放但是我希望衛福部在這件事情上可以更積極的討論到底那個意見因為我知道衛福部在相關政策認為要不要綁定其實都有不同的說法那部長你今天可以稍微說明一下嗎"},{"start":20192.881,"end":20210.496,"text":"我覺得這個待遇當然是爭議很大的部分可是我們還是想要聽聽看你們目前的立場或者是可能的規劃會是什麼我們本來國建署跟專家還有預告的版本是都出了開放的態度是綁在一起的嘛對不對對"},{"start":20211.697,"end":20228.194,"text":"但是可能因為這個綁在一起我必須要說他到底要不要脫鉤處理讓女童配偶的部分單身女性的部分可以先用人工生殖的技術把比較有專業代理孕母也許在之後但是我知道衛福部還在討論但是我只要提出在現場其實有非常非常多需求要被衛福部看見好嗎"},{"start":20230.273,"end":20243.71,"text":"因為這是一個老問題我們應該要有新的思維來解決看看有沒有辦法解決嘛所以我想大家存著互相尊重大家社會關懷"},{"start":20246.212,"end":20247.433,"text":"雖然我的時間已經結束,可是主席可以再給我1分鐘嗎?"},{"start":20268.12,"end":20271.101,"text":"有一個社區他的居民多由單親、隔代教養、移民華僑、原住民、身心障礙等等家庭所組成,成員非常複雜。"},{"start":20291.67,"end":20304.478,"text":"所以這個社區呢逐漸成為治安的毒瘤自成一格裡面有吸毒幫派竊盜打架家暴層出不窮裡面的很多孩子都遇到非常非常多的困境部長你覺得這是一個什麼樣的機構或是什麼樣的一個組織他們在面臨的問題"},{"start":20308.464,"end":20311.866,"text":"這是一個真實存在臺北市的安康社區那我要講的是像他們裡面就有一個協會是由政大的學生他們所組成的協會"},{"start":20327.517,"end":20342.534,"text":" ️"},{"start":20342.534,"end":20365.333,"text":" ️"},{"start":20365.473,"end":20366.533,"text":"但是他們完全不在衛福部社安網的視野。"},{"start":20383.379,"end":20383.979,"text":"對對對 有人在你頭上說了啦齁"},{"start":20403.312,"end":20426.502,"text":"但是我要講的是 但是如果說有這種 真的有這種情況我們很NAT了解來幫忙 我要給部長報告最後一個 其實全臺灣像這樣子類機構 他們做的是比較創新的事情 在陪伴孩子有非常非常多 絕對不是只有微光盒子 微光盒子我特別拿出來是因為他就在臺北市 而且他就在文山區 但是日本文山區可能是知識"},{"start":20427.182,"end":20427.542,"text":"謝謝部長,謝謝主持人。"},{"start":20452.976,"end":20478.825,"text":"那我們衛環委員會關心這些邊緣的孩子進步了法規範資源的孩子一起關心謝謝主席謝謝鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員不在葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":20483.802,"end":20501.686,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長。部長。委員好。部長好。部長辛苦。部長要去的地方還有很多。我等一下再一一跟您提醒。我們現在講電價。這個9月30號113年度的二次電價匯率的審議會,部長應該有掌握嘛。就是決議產業用電要調漲這個14%。"},{"start":20513.048,"end":20531.819,"text":"那過去在事務機構、身障機構、衛福機構、護理師家使用維生器材及必要的生活輔具的身心障礙者家庭他們有這個電價的優惠那因應這一次的台電漲價行政院也依照電業法已經指示了就是拍板114年的優惠電價及電價動漲金額要回歸到這個衛福部內來編列"},{"start":20540.223,"end":20554.554,"text":"請問部長,現階段有相關因應嗎?沒有,你說這一...不好意思,請問委員是講這一次嗎?對啊。114年度。114年度的優惠電價及電價動漲進來要回歸到衛福部來編嘛。這個有因應嗎?我們社福機構本來就..."},{"start":20564.389,"end":20587.247,"text":"有編了一億七千九百十三萬一百一十四年就已經有編列了嘛 對不對?那預算到現在還沒有過嗎?沒有啊所以沒什麼問題?等他過就OK嗎?要等他過啊沒有過就不OK嗎?當然啦當然嗎?這是今年度?是114年度才編的嘛?113沒有嘛對不對?"},{"start":20590.1,"end":20601.092,"text":"對嘛,預算沒有,就是新編的預算嘛,對嘛。那我講的都如果預算過就OK嘛,如果預算沒有過就不OK囉。是啊,因為它是新興基金。是嘛是嘛,那我怎麼因應,萬一沒有過?你說預算沒有過?對啊。預算沒有過..."},{"start":20613.999,"end":20617.761,"text":"我們看看從法規上面有什麼狀況有什麼可以來"},{"start":20630.078,"end":20650.588,"text":"我要跟你表達說,如果114年度的預算卡關,那到時候會不會影響到整個你要去處理的這些相關的社會的機構的這個電匯的情況,對不對?當然會啊,尤其是新興的計畫。是啊,所以這個你要準備要因應嘛。因為你如果沒有準備相關的因應作為,因為是新的預算,到時候就會出問題嘛。"},{"start":20652.016,"end":20667.622,"text":"當然不是很多但是他還是要命的錢啊不要到時候讓所有我們這些身上有需要的衛生的這些用電的器材都不敢用啊那就糟糕了對啊那到時候變成部長要到很多地方去看因為都不敢用電啊"},{"start":20668.582,"end":20669.022,"text":"這部長有掌握吧"},{"start":20688.741,"end":20688.761,"text":"臺灣媒體"},{"start":20707.766,"end":20736.301,"text":"經濟部給予這個醫療院所的電價動漲本期是肯定那也要感謝部長在這過程中努力溝通但是本期也請部長看一下這個新聞電價調漲加缺工那新冠疫情再起普拉登下個月就要漲價5到6%我想這個部分我不曉得部長怎麼看待這個事情因為醫療院所會跟民生物價有相關聯那藥品也是重要的民生物品"},{"start":20737.722,"end":20738.282,"text":"因為我們已經缺藥一段滿長久的時間"},{"start":20767.165,"end":20770.987,"text":"如果缺藥的話我們當然食藥署有缺藥的一個平台那如果因為成本"},{"start":20793.931,"end":20795.032,"text":"對那部長有什麼樣的考量跟意願作為嗎?"},{"start":20822.97,"end":20840.848,"text":"在如果是要訂不到或者是那個可能這個我們食藥署就有一個平台只要任何缺藥的狀況我們就會馬上處理那如果是整系統性的問題我們當然會做整體的處理那如果因為"},{"start":20842.517,"end":20872.346,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":20872.606,"end":20895.815,"text":"因為...因為其實...所以不能就講到重點嗎?這個事情有沒有還有機會來努力嗎?我想...我今天早上也有談過就是說如果有各個單位比較符合條件的我覺得都可以來跟經濟部來反映嘛那我們如果是比較屬於醫事方面"},{"start":20896.704,"end":20898.284,"text":"第2件事情剛才講到特殊的兒童當然就必須要特殊的照顧"},{"start":20917.569,"end":20941.526,"text":"部長雖然是在吳俄庭剛上任那我想你做事你是極先鋒我也期待你再把你的立委這種精神可以對衛生部相關業務做一次總體檢說真的這是有必要的但當然你要騰出一些時間出來你看監察院在9月提出糾正糾正衛生部長期忽視安置在成人機構之特殊需求兒少相關權益"},{"start":20944.096,"end":20967.625,"text":"並未能落實兒少最佳利益何有代思這是監察院的一個報告在176名的特殊需求兒少被地方政府安置在成人機構沒有適當的療癒及照顧沒有定期的評估沒有符合兒少最佳利益甚至於有6成9兒少就這樣放任在成人機構中超過兩年還有47位到現在沒有就學"},{"start":20973.227,"end":20988.196,"text":"我想身為這個中央主管機關衛福部疏於監督啊所以被監察院糾正但是我要恭喜部長你知道為什麼要恭喜你嗎因為萬幸的是今天是監察院提出糾正"},{"start":20990.069,"end":21005.771,"text":"而不是小朋友出的狀況那其實齁在這樣下去狀況會越來越多狀況會擺出啊是是是不然應該大家都還記得吧半年前凱凱案這半年的事情"},{"start":21007.472,"end":21009.494,"text":"在520就任之後可能我希望"},{"start":21024.548,"end":21049.861,"text":"就是說要去針對這個事情做整個一次性的盤整我當時在凱凱安的時候在這個委員會我特別提到我相信幾位長官應該都有聽我講過我們衛福有定格叫直轄縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則而這個原則還說明像針對凱凱這種特殊家庭小朋友的保母還必須上課"},{"start":21051.318,"end":21062.708,"text":"才有這個資格去代他對不對那結果台北市他認為他自己的安置資源足夠不必遵循這樣的原則所以最後才發生這樣的憾事"},{"start":21064.491,"end":21079.385,"text":"所以我是針對這個凱凱案來談論這個糾正案這兩個東西還是要放在一塊嘛我要提醒部長還有提醒各位長官這個不是一個單一安置的制度出問題啦 對不對所以你們針對這個事情要怎麼去運用"},{"start":21082.968,"end":21108.463,"text":"市委員我們當然本部已經很積極的督導地方政府足按全面檢視特殊需求兒童的照顧狀況擬定安置計畫那第二個當然就要增加所需要的經費第三個我們補助長照機構受制兒少專顧專門照顧的區域然後給他一個完整比較完整的身心發展需求的一個照顧環境"},{"start":21110.076,"end":21134.102,"text":"部長 我是這樣跟你去理解你好不好我覺得說一個月內趕快把它盤整完成啦相關的我們的準則啦地方政府是不是有照這樣子去落實啦如果沒有的話那你們要怎麼應用怎麼處置嘛然後也是也不只涵蓋兒少嘛還有老人緊急長期的這些都應該要有一定的這樣的一個SOP嘛"},{"start":21135.862,"end":21161.715,"text":"謝謝!"},{"start":21162.202,"end":21163.546,"text":"謝謝劉委員、謝謝部長。接續我們請陳盈委員質詢。"},{"start":21181.032,"end":21198.197,"text":"好謝謝昭偉還是要先對昭偉表示佩服你今天在這裡勇於承擔的一個發言因為我一個人在下面不好意思跟你鼓掌但我還是給你拍拍手非常感動好謝謝我們請那個部長好部長請委員好"},{"start":21203.935,"end":21229.483,"text":"部長好我們來看一下這個是在9月24號總質詢的時候我有特別提到這個問題就是當時因為質詢的時間很有限那沒有讓部長好好回答這個問題那我在這邊想要放慢一下速度來請教一下部長我們的這個文建站以及巷弄長照站的照服員其實已經5年"},{"start":21233.966,"end":21245.217,"text":"在這5年當中,如果依照公務人員的調薪的幅度,如果加上明年的3%"},{"start":21247.379,"end":21273.013,"text":"全部加起來這幾年當中已經調整了11%那部長但是我們回頭去看一下這個趙服務員五年他都沒有調薪那在這個時間點我們是不是也應該要有一個適度的調整我這個薪水看起來是比較低應該我印象中好像有調整"},{"start":21274.699,"end":21282.918,"text":"以前的調整是因為忘記就是應該只是補齊他們該領而沒有領的部分"},{"start":21283.834,"end":21287.637,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":21314.354,"end":21315.314,"text":"但是那個經費是從你們這邊來的啊"},{"start":21343.729,"end":21346.191,"text":"因為整個的這個預算也還是跟衛福部協商調整這個申請過來的嘛那我想"},{"start":21362.206,"end":21377.514,"text":"這個部分我看我看你們兩個兩位還在上面一直討論可能不是很清楚的感覺沒有因為這個是原民會那沒關係如果說我們就轉達給原民會來討論就是你們願意加碼然後他們可以去調整薪資"},{"start":21378.354,"end":21384.758,"text":"再來部長,就是透過這個調整軍公教待遇,帶動民間企業跟進,那全民來共享這個經濟成長的果實。我覺得呢,這個包括非營利單位,"},{"start":21404.069,"end":21428.825,"text":"當然就是說包括我們的這個造福源呢因為我們就是要準備要進入了這個長照3.0那接下來就是我想衛福部是不是可以好好的來研議然後準備就是說來整體來看一下這個事情那當然就是說也謝謝部長剛剛特別提到這個文化健康站造福源的部分"},{"start":21431.127,"end":21450.622,"text":"另外就是說我在總諮詢的時候也有提到就是當時我有列出所有的這個部會主管的法人還有基金會的這個調心狀況那我不知道部長當時有沒有看得很清楚就是我們這些衛福部主管的法人基金會"},{"start":21451.823,"end":21470.594,"text":"他們今年都是沒有調薪或調不到40%像比如說婦女權益促進發展基金會、要害救濟基金會等等、國衛院、醫測會等等這些他們也都沒有調或調不到4%我想在這邊我們先強調一個概念"},{"start":21472.162,"end":21500.372,"text":"因為調整這個軍公教薪資的待遇這件事情我們不是要去討論他的績效或績效獎金我想跟部長討論的是這些人他們跟公務人員一樣都是為了我們政府的這些政策推廣跟服務在努力軍公教調薪的狀況下加薪調薪的部分卻漏了他們我覺得這個不是"},{"start":21501.172,"end":21518.3,"text":"很合理啦因為也嚴重的打擊打擊士氣吼那部長我想說想請教就是說這些單位今年的4%什麼時候可以調整還有明年的3%是不是也可以如期的調整"},{"start":21520.161,"end":21532.097,"text":"法務委員我想這個數據好像跟我上次我們關心的時候稍微我印象中只有婦女權益促進發展基金會當時是沒有條"},{"start":21536.34,"end":21557.91,"text":" ︎"},{"start":21558.03,"end":21575.955,"text":"他們的制度要怎麼處理,我們都趕快來處理。對,因為有的還要強調就是說那個績效這件事,因為它有些性質它是不一樣的。像國衛一樣就沒什麼績效,績效他都一直在研究。我的意思是說他很有績效但是沒有錢的績效,不一定有錢的績效,但是他是國家衛生智庫,所以他對國家的貢獻是非常大。"},{"start":21585.418,"end":21600.675,"text":"因為有些單位不是看他們賺多少錢來衡量。他其實很窮,國家衛生研究院很窮,那個每次統三都把他們的一些計畫比較刪掉一些,他們也痛苦不堪。"},{"start":21601.876,"end":21629.594,"text":"對,所以部長如果有這樣的概念很好那我們也請部長回去就是好,我馬上來研究你還沒有回答我的問題就是那個今年嘛我們現在才10月嘛起碼還有後面還有兩個月啊就是今年其實是有調調這個4%然後明年要調3%你們要不要追上"},{"start":21631.072,"end":21632.163,"text":"就是趕上一下進度"},{"start":21633.431,"end":21661.718,"text":"我們馬上來處理啊。如果該補的就補啊。這個錢的事情,絕對火急啊這個是。大家都都有聽到,這是我們詢問過,這個認知最棒的衛福部部長。這個應該要調的就要趕快調啊。是,謝謝。那我們有沒有可能在10月底的時候麻煩大家會診然後可以跟我們辦公室說明一下這個狀況?"},{"start":21663.178,"end":21682.064,"text":"好,沒問題啊。我們回去跟人事處講一下。我們回去跟人事處,但是我是覺得一定要想盡辦法,要達到目標這樣子。沒錯,我們大家一起努力啦。但我還是要講一下10月底到我們辦公室報告一下狀況,你們努力的結果這樣。"},{"start":21684.685,"end":21684.845,"text":"是的。"},{"start":21713.94,"end":21736.068,"text":"結合了智慧科技的運用當然這個是整體來說是我們現在的趨勢星期一記者會的主題是在智慧醫療但是我8月的時候有邀請衛福部各個機關來開會請你們彙整目前衛福部所有有關智慧科技運用的政策與計畫這些表是你們彙整給我的"},{"start":21740.45,"end":21756.66,"text":"那這個我們看一下其中紅色框起來的兩個項目也是我上屆推動社區健康營造結合科技應用的計畫這是我相當關心也是部落我們偏向非常需要的一個計畫那其中呢"},{"start":21756.92,"end":21780.077,"text":" ️"},{"start":21781.057,"end":21803.746,"text":"這個也是我們賴總統的這個推動的健康台灣的政策那健康台灣當中有一個項目呢是智慧醫療結合智慧照護所以部長我們是不是應該再詳細的去給大家盤點到底是哪些政策跟計畫呢是以這個智慧科技用在醫療"},{"start":21805.687,"end":21831.289,"text":"還有這個照護上面的那我們要把它要請你們說把它彙整成一個計畫裡面哪些是常態性的政策哪些是階段性的項目這個部分我們把它做一個完整的整理那我提出這樣的要求是因為我們之前跟你們這個詢問那要求做的這個整理的內容其實是不清不楚"},{"start":21832.483,"end":21834.223,"text":"我們那個三大中心是世界算是領先的"},{"start":21857.55,"end":21865.624,"text":"那相關這個智慧科技的政策會整成這個智慧醫療結合健康照護的這個計畫你們如果很強的話那需要多久的時間?"},{"start":21867.496,"end":21883.669,"text":"1個月好了這樣齁阿如果可以的話也10月底你就一併跟那個條新的事情來跟我們報告啦好阿好好記起來好阿謝謝我想說我前面謝謝臺北歐羅這麼久時間也不夠了好啦好啦謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝副長最後一個林憲齊講快一點阿還沒吃飯欸好謝謝"},{"start":21900.236,"end":21909.482,"text":"好,謝謝昭偉還有我們立委同仁和衛福部的同仁,大家好。我就先直接請部長吧。"},{"start":21912.967,"end":21937.867,"text":"我想最後一個也有一些期待啦。好啦,稍微講,講得快一點,我就講得快一點。好,那部長我就直接啦,我們就進入今天的PPT。今天要跟你探討的是一個,前幾天其實我也有把這個文送進來,就是有關於學齡前聽力篩檢的這個議題。好,那現在最主要的重點是你們在2012年衛福部就開始推動這個新生兒的聽力篩檢。"},{"start":21939.268,"end":21966.505,"text":"但是現在碰到的一個問題就是學齡前兒童的聽力篩檢現在碰到很大的問題那這個問題呢就導致其實有一些學童他是可以在黃金時期把這樣子的一個問題去做一個處理所以他未來在有關於聽力方面的一個學習就會不會受遭遇到沒有被篩到的問題"},{"start":21967.886,"end":21996.057,"text":"這是今天最主要的一個問題那當然制度層面讓我們下一張制度層面就是現在就是政策不一怎麼說呢你們在這個新生兒的篩檢這個部分由衛福部這邊做的還挺不錯的那但是呢現在很多的這個縣市可能因為地方的財力或者是地方的量能的一個問題而導致許多縣市目前已經停辦"},{"start":21996.957,"end":22003.948,"text":"學齡前的聽力篩檢那不曉得衛福部對這樣一個問題的看法是如何?"},{"start":22005.714,"end":22024.061,"text":"我們現在的一個學齡前聽力篩檢的政策就是...委員能不能讓我來說明一下?好,謝謝。衛福組織在新聖河的聽力篩檢,那這個聽力篩檢委員當然也知道我們大概目前大概成績大概都在98%到99%,換句話說大概不到1%的小孩子沒有篩過。"},{"start":22028.843,"end":22050.081,"text":"那最後這個包括後續的追蹤轉介大概都說都能夠達到98以上的這樣的一個規模但是協定條約我們放在的是在兒童健康檢查裡面他必須要去做這些就是我們那個孩子的健康檢查裡面有這個項目啦可能就是落實的問題啦那還有縣市他在執行端的問題我們來檢討這個部分好不好"},{"start":22052.304,"end":22053.646,"text":"您剛才也回應了這個問題但是我這邊把那個比較更"},{"start":22068.187,"end":22097.387,"text":"我這邊研究的這個區塊也跟您做一個交流你們在新生兒的部分其實是篩得不錯但是現在大家碰到一個問題是跟地方地方怎麼來處理這件事然後第二個是所謂的黃金期所以新生兒不錯但是學齡前比例差很多那這跟制度上也有點關係所以兩個重點第一個是地方的量能還有中央的支持這是一個問題第二個部分是對不起往下一頁"},{"start":22099.308,"end":22126.062,"text":"好第二個部分是你們在學齡前的這個聽力篩檢的給付目前只有100塊然後新生兒的篩檢700塊所以在品質方面也有一些差異但是最重要就是這個黃金騎士在新生兒一直到這個學齡前的這一段差距如果依照很多現行大家實際的狀況的了解在這個部分如果能夠篩出來的話那他其實會影響後面很大很多人就是在這個部分被漏篩了"},{"start":22126.442,"end":22149.48,"text":"閱讀"},{"start":22149.48,"end":22171.374,"text":" ️"},{"start":22171.454,"end":22171.554,"text":"新聞報告"},{"start":22195.734,"end":22221.525,"text":"我們來組一個團隊跟大家跟協會來這邊做討論那看看做出什麼樣的問題找出來然後我們來規劃看後續後續怎麼來處理這個問題好不好好的謝謝那謝謝署長所以我這邊的幾個建議除了剛才我們講的那個城鄉的一個差距最後給大家做一個沒有人用PPT啊好吧反正今天的重點就是你一定要掌握這段"},{"start":22223.005,"end":22246.804,"text":"這段那個年齡層的人然後當然學校的家長也很重要那你說相關的這個協會那可能我要書裡面把你們對於聽障師的這樣一個數量跟是不是足夠來處理這一塊年齡的這個人可以給我一些很具體的一個回應好不好對那這樣我們就能夠很很清楚的具體的來處理跟解決這樣一個問題好嗎好謝謝謝謝署長"},{"start":22253.349,"end":22260.371,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員張家俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定第一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":22281.86,"end":22302.43,"text":"2委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆。委員另要求則其者,從其所定。本次會議到此結束。現在上會。謝謝大家。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:06 - 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tart":1749.677,"end":1776.426,"text":"報告聯席會初期委員19人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開始開會我們現在介紹到場委員跟應邀列席官員我們就在場委員吳思堯委員我們現在介紹應邀列席的官員"},{"start":1778.219,"end":1806.139,"text":"原住民委員會的常務副主委鍾新華中副主委內政部民政司專委劉立芳權序部法規司專委廖康儒行政院人事行政總處組織人力處副處長邱怡章行政院主計總處公寓預算處專門委員章嘉瑜"},{"start":1809.916,"end":1815.632,"text":"其餘未介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄"},{"start":1819.293,"end":1844.183,"text":"本次議程我們排定討論事項並安審查委員鄭天財等16人委員高金素梅等24人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案）反案前今113年6月27日本屆第一會期司法及法制內政委員會第二次聯席會議審查"},{"start":1847.365,"end":1853.211,"text":"業經報告及詢答完畢並決議令定期繼續審查。原因今日繼續審查進行討論我們現在進行討論請醫事人員宣讀提案條文那如果修正綜議請一併宣讀請宣讀"},{"start":1866.345,"end":1885.395,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案委員鄭天財等提案第三條本會致主任委員一人特任由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任副主任委員三人其中二人職務比照檢任第14職等另一人職務列檢任第14職等"},{"start":1886.716,"end":1914.654,"text":"部主任委員中二人應由三弟原住民與平弟原住民擔任且職務列檢任第14職登者應具三弟原住民或平弟原住民身份前向主任委員由行政院院長提名經由具原住民身份之職下市議員、縣市議員、鄉鎮市區長召開審查會同意後任命之任期四年不得連任委員高金素梅等提案第三條除增訂第三句"},{"start":1915.795,"end":1938.487,"text":"並兼任行政院政務委員等文字外其餘未修正委員鄭天財等提案第四條除第一項增訂第二句為無己職另刪除條文中依聘用人員聘用條例聘用其聘期隨主任委員異動而更易於均為無己職等文字其餘"},{"start":1940.163,"end":1946.092,"text":"其餘未修正、委員高金素梅等提案第四條同委員鄭天財等提案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1948.568,"end":1971.715,"text":"繼續修正動議部分修正動議一對照委員鄭天財等提案第三條第一項後段中二人應由山地原住民與平地原住民擔任修正為二人應由山地原住民或平地原住民擔任第二項刪除提案人委員會小林鄭天財、吳宗憲、張志榮、黃建平等。宣禮完畢"},{"start":1976.964,"end":2004.102,"text":"條文已經宣讀完畢那我們現在進行討論那針對本案請問各位我們要進行大體討論還是直接進行主條討論看各位的意思報告召委我覺得上一回我們都已經質詢答詢結束了我們現在就是不是進入到主條來討論有意見的話我們在主條當中就表示大家的意見可以嗎謝謝"},{"start":2006.078,"end":2021.793,"text":"無效委員我是建議司法法制委員會的程序上還是大體在主條然後因為像天財委員有一些修正也是請提案委員再先做一下說明這樣子可能會更清楚修正的緣由謝謝"},{"start":2023.634,"end":2045.212,"text":"那這樣齁 呃 高金委員我想請教一下就是如果說我們因為呃 吳委員 那個本會的委員吳委員說希望進行代議討論那是不是我們一個折送方式就是我們進行代議討論但是每個人我們一個限制一個時間限制時間就好 這樣我們就可以控制了好不好我想說我們就這樣子 那我們先請"},{"start":2047.932,"end":2048.252,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":2071.303,"end":2076.086,"text":"有關原民會組織法的第三條本席原來提的條文是針對主任委員怎麼樣能夠有能夠充分說到各個族群"},{"start":2100.199,"end":2100.299,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2117.584,"end":2145.883,"text":"能夠行使同意這樣的一個就是因為從原住民族自治的立場來看的話那因為原住民族自治法到目前恐怕還是很難所以我是想說是不是先推出這樣的那經過我提案之後看了目前的一個狀況是認為說還是暫緩所以我就把這個第二項第二項還是先做了修正東西刪除了這個第二項"},{"start":2148.946,"end":2163.356,"text":"言明會主任委員提案由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任。最主要考量是說,原住民族第七包括都會七,台澎金馬,非常廣。"},{"start":2164.817,"end":2182.129,"text":"一個主任委員能夠去了解各個地方各個族群其實真的有他的難度那如果我說明這個從嚴明會這個成立到現在第一任的主任委員這個山地原住民"},{"start":2183.25,"end":2201.738,"text":"第二任的陳水扁總統前面是馬英九李登輝總統的時候是山地原住民華家志陳水扁總統任內第一任的是布農族尤哈尼伊斯卡卡夫特山地原住民"},{"start":2204.16,"end":2227.88,"text":"陳建年平地原住民邊南族瓦里斯貝林賽德克族山地原住民阿美族從陳水扁的最後一年開始到馬英九的8年都是平地原住民"},{"start":2228.92,"end":2229.921,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":2245.588,"end":2261.718,"text":"蔡英文總統的任內8年也都是平地原住民所以這個部分我才會說這個是不是可以有這樣的一個條文的一個規定因為畢竟颱風禁真的是各族群真的是不是"},{"start":2263.474,"end":2263.654,"text":"高金委員"},{"start":2287.652,"end":2301.624,"text":"我針對第四條的部分跟在場的委員們說明一下第四條是對於原住民的族群委員我們希望是比照辦理跟客家委員會一樣是無極值的我有幾點要跟在場的委員說明一下第一點"},{"start":2302.905,"end":2328.894,"text":"就針對第四條族群委員無極值的議題就是其實族群委員最大的功能他是要彰顯地方各族群的心聲但是在2020年發生格馬蘭族的族群委員遭到格馬蘭族地方領袖共同的抗議的時候我們也要求原民會你必須要處理一下族群委員的領選制度可是到現在已經四年了都還沒有處理然後今年"},{"start":2330.134,"end":2352.655,"text":"在我們的10月9號感恩福祖也到立法院召開了一個記者會也抗議他們現在推派的族群委員根本也不是他們想要的族群委員所以呢這充分的表示什麼派人制度不公平然後從容性質過高根本都不透明的部分這四年當中園林會根本都沒有想要修正這是讓我們感到非常不可思議的地方"},{"start":2353.335,"end":2353.455,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":2374.028,"end":2390.16,"text":"主委說什麼就是誰然後我們再看一下從薪資結構上來看這些族群委員根本也不代表各族群推派出來的只是主委他自己領選的你知道他的薪水多少嗎他每個月的薪水是81540塊這相當於什麼專門委員甚至是副處長層級的薪資了我們可以看到進法補償呢"},{"start":2400.168,"end":2419.273,"text":"每個月五千塊我們的行政院都不願意編列了 族群委員只是一個主委他自己的意志去擬派的人一個月卻可以領高達八萬一千多塊 這個實在是相對的有被剝奪感然後在業務上面呢其實呢原民會他本身的業務就很多 我們來舉個例子"},{"start":2421.994,"end":2447.405,"text":"掌管26萬公勤原住民保留地的這個管理的我們的人民會裡面的人力只有30個人所以我們建議為何不把這些錢真正用在需要的人力上面然後第五個我們可以看到中央部會例如客家委員會組織法第四條裡面客家地區的代表擔任委員也是無職無己職的"},{"start":2449.427,"end":2466.282,"text":"總統府原住民委員會有16組的族群代表,也是無幾值的以上我提的這些東西我們都希望原民會能夠深深的考慮也希望在場的委員們能夠支持我的提案提案說明完畢了"},{"start":2473.137,"end":2484.095,"text":"各位委員我們現在進行大體討論那其他發言的委員在座位上舉手就可以那請問是否有委員要那羅委員"},{"start":2493.737,"end":2514.282,"text":"主席我今天看到這個我們高金素梅委員不管他的那個修法或是他的一些那個提案跟發言我忽然驚覺了我都終於懂了主席原來民進黨為什麼要苛扣禁法補償原住民三萬塊啊"},{"start":2515.86,"end":2535.507,"text":"原來為什麼因為現在族群委員民進黨把他搞成仇擁制每個月薪水八萬一千五百四十元這麼肥的缺這麼需要經費當然要砍原住民的三萬元真正需要原住民的三萬元不願意給"},{"start":2537.128,"end":2552.36,"text":"阿現在是怎麼樣?如果說今天齁,族群委員齁,真的今天像我們高金素梅委員剛講的齁,你能夠準確反應這個我們各族群的心聲,也就罷了,可是是嗎?"},{"start":2553.741,"end":2570.9,"text":"所以我跟大家講今天我覺得高金素梅委員講的話太棒了 醍醐灌頂我都突然懂了為什麼今天為什麼民進黨使命的要去砍民進黨砍那個原住民的禁法補償 三讀通過的法律"},{"start":2572.028,"end":2600.218,"text":"然後原住民轉型正義踩在腳底下連我們今天民進黨自己的陳寅委員跟吳立華委員都支持的原住民的禁法補償結果呢他把我們兩個親愛的民進黨的原住民委員壓在腳底下你叫他們怎麼面對原住民的族人搞了半天搞了半天原來是這個原因啊我真的希望我們偉大的政府今天"},{"start":2601.178,"end":2601.978,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2628.058,"end":2648.244,"text":"謝謝主席和在場的委員我看最主要還是要講道理啦剛羅志強委員提到原住民禁法補償的部分我會有不同的一個看法不同的看法在什麼地方呢原住民的禁法補償這個部分我們過去國民黨提出來蔡英文總統上來以後"},{"start":2650.145,"end":2650.425,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":2665.31,"end":2680.444,"text":"或者在場所有的委員你們家的林地你們也是屬於禁法的部分然後呢我是原住民我是八萬羅志祥你是一萬五那我認為你也會覺得不合理啦禁法補償應該是針對說禁法這個政策"},{"start":2684.486,"end":2703.759,"text":"進法這個政策而不是我莊瑞雄是原住民我8萬你羅志強你不是原住民你1萬5這不通嘛我們兩個全部在我們兩個都我們都有照理嘛不是嗎我屏東我有8個原民鄉啊我知道大家討論這個問題壓力都很大你挺原住民我也知道"},{"start":2704.96,"end":2730.57,"text":"那不能說我是農民我就沒有嘛我也是要禁法補償我也必須要有我份嘛所以政策我都認為必須要好好去做一個討論這個本來就可以大聲的講啊宗嘉濱他本身在屏東啊也有很多原住民鄉啊這個議題的時候不是只有你們把聲音講得很大就好像其他人不挺原住民不是我的看法是說你政府的政策必須要去一致你像比如說北水水庫啊"},{"start":2733.766,"end":2734.547,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":2755.799,"end":2782.763,"text":"第三條裡面去提到說本會制主任委員然後特任這個鄭天財委員的看法鄭天財委員這個看法我是覺得非常有創意非常有創意但是我是覺得比較不妥啦比較不妥的原因就是說在我們整個憲法徵求條文裡面是強盜整個原住民族的一個地位可是我們也很清楚現在憲判制把平埔族也放進去了"},{"start":2784.045,"end":2805.777,"text":"那你至少有九族的賓卜族,難道他們就沒有資格來擔任了嗎?這是第一點。那另外的就是說,你像比如說,由主委,由行政院長來提警總人的命,行政院長提名,原住民加直轄市議員或縣市議員,那刪除了,對不起,你刪除了這?"},{"start":2808.315,"end":2811.037,"text":"因為當省委員先舉手的時候我們讓省委員先發言"},{"start":2837.991,"end":2859.566,"text":"主席各位同仁我想說這個是我們這個新的會期所審的第一個法案那也都之前詢答過了今天要好好的來針對這個部分大家來進行討論結果沒想到除了這個提案說明之後第一個發言的羅志強委員就馬上把他提升到政黨對決開口就罵民進黨了那這個顯然對於羅志強委員來講沒有藍綠的衝突"},{"start":2867.671,"end":2868.152,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":2880.937,"end":2904.652,"text":"原住民委員會組織法修正條文一開口就要提升到這個政黨的衝突這個我是非常不能理解不能溝通那我想今天參加的委員大家都很用心的準備看了這個兩位委員的提案對於內容裡面大家有一些疑問都想要在這裡大家來討論羅志祥委員是不是因為他沒有仔細看這個法案所以他只好談這個政黨的問題這個讓我覺得非常的"},{"start":2909.255,"end":2909.376,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":2917.594,"end":2917.634,"text":"財政委員"},{"start":2948.215,"end":2958.097,"text":"第一個就是有關高金委員提到說原住民委員的主委要兼任行政院政府委員這個好像是這個也拿掉了對不對這個修正"},{"start":2959.435,"end":2984.132,"text":"所以現在是你們兩個案子都用這個修正動議就對了不是說這個是你的修正動議那這個問題也沒有那更簡單了這剩下三個問題了這個就是由平地原住民跟山地原住民輪流擔任主委這個事情這是第一個點那第二個點之前有說三個副主委都要原住民這個"},{"start":2985.854,"end":2996.324,"text":"之前案子沒有了沒有修了嗎也沒有修了好那接下來就是無極職的問題了就是委員的無極職那我想這個"},{"start":2997.694,"end":3007.958,"text":"委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":3021.182,"end":3045.141,"text":"這個是從原民會一成立開始就有這樣的一個明定那一成立的時候是李登輝總統李登輝總統的時代嗎是是是所以剛剛有委員說啊這個民進黨啊這個發發8萬塊給給這個這個給這個原住民委員這個讓我去嚇了一跳我想說啊這個是民進黨定的這是該死的民進黨真該死結果啊原來不是不是民進黨定的從開始到現在就是這樣子嘛"},{"start":3046.702,"end":3069.07,"text":"為什麼委員就要把這個東西拿來說你們民進黨現在發八萬好像民進黨在酬庸馬英九八年都不是酬庸過去李登輝都不是酬庸就是這樣子齁我認為齁這個實在是顛倒是非啦齁那這個部分齁這個有關這個部分我們等一下主條的時候會再跟副主委來討論這個有關這騙人知己條例的問題"},{"start":3072.52,"end":3099.122,"text":"那接下來我大概最後簡單的講一下就是說我對於輪流擔任這件事情我個人有點疑慮的因為事實上對於平地原住民、山地原住民的分類這個我相信在原住民族或是在台灣大家都有相當大的質疑雖然憲法裡面這麼規定但事實上現在平地原住民很多住在山地原住民鄉很多山地擁有山地原住民身份的人其實住在台北市、住在都市裡面"},{"start":3100.063,"end":3110.015,"text":"所以平地原住民、三地原住民本身這個分類現在在憲法學理上大概就有很大的爭議那我們又要把這個爭議把它放進現在要再立法強化"},{"start":3112.227,"end":3138.174,"text":"這個平立原住民、三立原住民區分,這個我是有點疑慮的。那就像我們現在如果規定客委會主委,他必須這個四線、海豐、輪流單陣,那個反而沒有團結這個客委會的這種,所以現在這樣區分是反而沒有團結原住民的功能,反而變成分化原住民的效果,這部分我有疑慮,等一下我們在主條的時候再進行討論,謝謝。"},{"start":3141.205,"end":3142.712,"text":"高金委員先舉手"},{"start":3144.485,"end":3168.591,"text":"好,非常謝謝,針對莊委員或法會委員提出的部分我簡單的說明一下第一個莊委員說那個金額的部分,競法補償的部分事實上呢,招領補助也已經修正為6萬了然後我們看一下休耕也已經是6萬了所以當時我們在內政跟經濟委員會裡面甚至於民進黨的立法委員都會提案是6萬塊是依據這個部分的"},{"start":3171.172,"end":3171.612,"text":"所以我在這邊再提醒大家"},{"start":3189.824,"end":3214.923,"text":"第二件事情就是所謂的無脊折這個部分的確是在李登輝時期的時候這個就已經明定了但是不要忘記2020年我剛有講過葛孟蘭族群委員其實他們已經連署抗議過當時民進黨政府派人的族群委員所以當時一戰八路因為接受了大家的抗議所以族群委員就沒有另派他"},{"start":3215.503,"end":3245.503,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3245.503,"end":3245.763,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3264.415,"end":3265.576,"text":"我們回歸到我們是一家人謝謝"},{"start":3284.941,"end":3311.189,"text":"待會羅將委員還有吳思耀委員、鍾嘉斌委員我們這樣一直討論整個程序會不會拖太長不好意思我想要歉意一下如果這樣子的話我們大家比較有順序嘛那乾脆用登記的啦"},{"start":3312.113,"end":3313.134,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":3330.782,"end":3331.062,"text":"主席詢問一下"},{"start":3355.888,"end":3381.159,"text":"主席我想我們稍微都當主席那每個委員會都有它的一個運作的方法那在立法院不就要充分討論嗎什麼時候開始司法法制委員會的討論不要看這兩條好像以條文數來決定我們要花多少時間這個法案上我相信今天到場的委員都很關心不管身份屬性是不是原住民我們代表的都是中華民國的民意"},{"start":3381.879,"end":3408.888,"text":"那我們在這裡希望能夠充分討論還是主席你有收到什麼指示要在幾點之前不要講那個啦我只請教一下嘛我們如果沒有時間限制的話不是任何人可以要我做什麼我就做什麼好很好那我就是說我們建議還是充分討論對我個人就這樣嘛我們該做什麼就做什麼嘛那今天很簡單就是說我們希望不要說議事整個去延宕到那如果這樣的話是不是說"},{"start":3411.833,"end":3440.316,"text":"對我意思是說不要讓議事去言蕩到如果說每個人一直重複的發言然後你一言我一語的話整個議事會言蕩到那是不是說我們今天我們的就大體討論的部分那我們是不是如果說這樣啦一個就是說每個人發言一次嘛另外一個就是那我們現在開始我們就乾脆用登記發言的方式你聽到我講什麼不高興你又要起來講那到時候會議就沒完沒了啦"},{"start":3441.974,"end":3460.088,"text":"這也是為了大家 大家都很多嘛我覺得剛剛回應一下我們那個鍾嘉賓委員我覺得等到鍾委員你去當主席的時候你要怎麼去控管程序都尊重你那我先講齁 剛剛不管是莊瑞雄委員跟審判委員對我都有意見啦"},{"start":3461.378,"end":3480.815,"text":"對可是呢今天主席既然講一次每個人一次的話我也願意尊重主席因為今天主席就是我們整個議事規程的一個主導者嘛那今天如果說今天在議事上我們覺得需要說大家每個人有一次發言機會那就轉一圈就好啦那我自己願意放棄我的發言機會啦就這樣子"},{"start":3483.149,"end":3484.491,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":3497.008,"end":3512.529,"text":"主席,我也有程序上的建議如果說是要登記發言沒有問題但是我是覺得大體討論那也代表我們之所以大家想要踴躍的發言充分的討論是因為我們都很重視原住民族相關權益的問題"},{"start":3514.151,"end":3540.325,"text":"正因為我們重視然後要修法我們要非常的審慎所以限制次數我覺得這就限縮了我們討論的目的在立法院就是要討論了相信藉由討論會越把條文弄得更細緻所以如果為了秩序上因為主席真的比較忙要舉手這裡舉那裡舉可能也漏看那我們先登記沒關係但是我們要在第二輪發言再去登記沒有問題"},{"start":3541.045,"end":3552.71,"text":"這是方便主席在控管秩序上但我是建議讓我們充分發言不要就次數上來限制我們在乎重視原住民就應當充分討論好 謝謝"},{"start":3556.51,"end":3556.65,"text":"主席"},{"start":3573.654,"end":3594.606,"text":"應該發表意見一方面要充分二方面要有效率整個會議的進行要有效率所以我是支持剛剛主席所講的每個人以一次為限之後再進入到主條討論主條討論大家還是可以發言的就程序部分還有誰有希望提出來嗎?"},{"start":3596.471,"end":3616.283,"text":"我覺得登記我也同意但不能限制委員的發言次數因為我們就是要具體的去討論一個法律的修正本來就是應該要具體討論像我們今天是內政聯席我們內政也不會說限制你的發言次數我覺得還是要尊重"},{"start":3622.487,"end":3646.386,"text":"我還是要拜託各位委員我自己是老公務員這個聆聽立法委員從公務員聆聽審議員聆聽立法委員的質詢以及相關的提案從過去到現在基本上過去都會尊重"},{"start":3647.762,"end":3677.271,"text":"原住民的審議員或者是原住民的立法委員的提案因為畢竟這個是原住民族內部的事情涉及到外部的剛才提到會涉及到憲法的我就把它刪除了所以我們是不是能夠回歸到就這麼兩條條文我已經把有爭議的部分都拿掉了"},{"start":3678.895,"end":3702.876,"text":"是不是我們就撇開這個政治的部分能夠回歸到這兩條條文我的建議是這樣畢竟這個是我為什麼會提我剛剛有講有的人還沒有來啦本來原住民組自治啦但是原住民組自治很難嘛"},{"start":3705.311,"end":3726.183,"text":"蘇貞昌院長說分流立法其實這個就是分流立法的字一了但是看起來大家還是沒有辦法接受會認為會剝奪行政院院長的憲法的權利那我就把它刪除刪除做了修正動議所以我要拜託大家是不是就回歸到"},{"start":3728.298,"end":3754.409,"text":"盡量去尊重我不敢說百分之百尊重原住民族盡量去尊重原住民族立法委員的提案只要不是違憲只要不是沒有而且是還可以還可以省人民的納稅錢所以這個部分我們就拋開政治的思維"},{"start":3756.223,"end":3785.072,"text":"拜託能夠尊重原住民立法委員的提案我們來仔細的討論可以修的就修我特別拜託以上謝謝根據的部分還有誰還有哪位要補充這樣好因為跟各位那個委員各位都先進報告齁就是大體討論的意義本來就不是讓大家這一來一往嘛大體討論我們是是就主要是就這個我們今天又"},{"start":3788.373,"end":3811.628,"text":"因為你們現在就一來一往了嘛所以到最後這樣好不好就是說這樣大體討論我們現在我們希望說待會我們現在在討論程序嘛待會我們進入大體討論的時候我們想要發言的人我們上來登記然後每個人就限三分鐘一次這樣就好然後我們接下來就進沒有沒有就一次發言因為我們是大體討論欸我們是大體討論"},{"start":3816.628,"end":3843.285,"text":"對後面還有主條所以我們大體討論的部分因為大體討論是什麼意義大家都很清楚我們主席要不要定說截止報名登記發言這樣子的話才不會說一次兩次所以我們今天早上大體討論的部分我們每個人就發言一次然後每次三分鐘那如果說"},{"start":3846.193,"end":3847.179,"text":"程序部份你有什麼意見?"},{"start":3847.731,"end":3875.662,"text":"主席我建議你如果說要限制大家發言一次那我建議你等一下逐條的時候你不能再限制因為大家問題有這麼多嘛你問題我講了之後可能鄭天財委員做的說明可能高金委員做的說明我還有疑慮我還會想再請教啊那這個如果大體討論你要限制一次發言那你等一下不能說我們逐條也講太久了我們逐條也限制一次發言這個我是很怕你到最後逐條又要限制發言"},{"start":3877.53,"end":3880.771,"text":"因為今天我們是聯席人很多啦所以我們一個人三分鐘就好"},{"start":3908.138,"end":3927.573,"text":"對,要登記,再麻煩各位到前面來登記,謝謝我們既然我們變更程序的話,那我們就重新開始好了,這樣才不會說有一些人權利被剝奪我們剛剛沒有做這樣的變動嘛我跟你講是為"},{"start":3969.835,"end":3969.995,"text":"登記發言"},{"start":3994.651,"end":3997.015,"text":"我們現在請第一位發言登記委員吳思堯發言"},{"start":4002.103,"end":4025.499,"text":"主席各位同仁首先我還是要表達相當的遺憾從來都不要害怕討論我們就是因為在乎重視原住民族的權益我們在健全原住民族委員會的組成一定要勇敢討論多元討論不應當限制發言我還是對於這樣子的議事處理我認為我是比較難以接受"},{"start":4026.079,"end":4026.28,"text":"委員鄭天財"},{"start":4044.6,"end":4059.689,"text":"以籌擁兩個字來看待接受我們層層遴選指派的原住民族委員會的聘任委員扣上了他們似乎是失位速餐他們似乎是得不配位甚至動輒用"},{"start":4060.489,"end":4062.93,"text":"）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。）立法院第11屆第4會議"},{"start":4085.06,"end":4087.763,"text":"國民黨執政時期就已經創建的制度民進黨多年來是沿用也沒有更動所以大家都不要講出仇傭這種字眼那現在的聘任委員呢他是透過"},{"start":4101.158,"end":4118.807,"text":"已經非常明確執行這麼多年的聆聘要點的規定聆用要有一定的資格條件而且要透過多元的管道比如說各個民族議會各界推薦或者是自建中來聆聘然後呢他的任務是什麼"},{"start":4119.767,"end":4133.079,"text":"他的性質是如同像公務人員一樣他的工作時間跟差勤都跟正職人員相同原住民族的服務員非常的大他們不是一般任務編組的委員會來開開會就好"},{"start":4135.962,"end":4159.156,"text":"所以我們認為他們是形同正職人員的工作項目服務的範疇非常之廣我們來看看上個會期也在原民委員的提案之下立法院內政委員會審議通過增加對於直轄市原住民族議員現市的原住民族議員一樣增加了為民服務費20%plus"},{"start":4161.517,"end":4183.397,"text":"這就是我們體恤原住民族不管是在中央服務或是地方議會的服務他們因為服務員廣大服務員廣大人數少所以工作項目多我們在上一個修法增加20%的服務費可是今天回到原民會自己依"},{"start":4184.458,"end":4199.839,"text":"禮品要點依程序依專業的選用來他的工作任務跟一般正職人員相同的這些原住民族委員為什麼要削減他應當有的他合理有的他的"},{"start":4200.931,"end":4203.273,"text":"委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。（"},{"start":4229.249,"end":4229.829,"text":"）立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":4245.655,"end":4265.869,"text":"一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條"},{"start":4269.711,"end":4292.34,"text":"這都是主委的工作不要再走回錯誤的歷史的脈絡過去錯誤對山地原住民跟平地原住民這種因為政治因為統治需求而來做分立的這樣子的老路不要再走回去了所以我是認為雖然條文少只有兩條但是我們因為尊重原住民照顧原住民我們應當審慎的討論當立法委員這麼多年不會因為一個法案條文少"},{"start":4299.403,"end":4299.603,"text":"請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":4317.965,"end":4344.861,"text":"主席在場委員先進我想大家來到這個委員會就是希望能夠民主啊就是要討論不願意在委員會花時間討論就只會進行表決到院會裡面進行決議之後的爭議會更大所以這邊今天有三點第一點還是要奉勸主席在立法院的各委員會我們希望都能夠充分討論才能夠提高我們的立法品質而不是一開始就擺出了準備要馬上進行表決的杖陣"},{"start":4345.922,"end":4373.111,"text":"在場的委員如果不是為了討論而來是為了表決而來就失去了在委員會我們揚棄既有的黨派成見而開誠布公的誠心來討論問題這是第一點第二點對於原住民議題的關注不限定你的族群身份本席過去在第九屆就推動過原住民族教育法當時合作的委員也還在現場其實原住民族教育法後面我們還有原住民族學校法為什麼是要用立法院113委員共同參與來通過因為"},{"start":4375.672,"end":4400.863,"text":"在我們國家裡面不管哪是個族群我們的法律就是一體適用大家共同討論那時候的原住民族教育法我們希望其他的族群也能夠熟悉原住民的文化所以呢我們必須透過其他族群委員的來參與才能夠讓原住民族教育法成為一個屬於我們全體國民的法律這是第二個關於為什麼要大家共同來討論原住民族委員會的組織法"},{"start":4402.352,"end":4416.574,"text":"第三個對於今天討論的本法案條文剛剛神話會委員說得很好本來有五個爭點那經過了修正之後呢有三個爭點的討論事項我們就不用再進行深呼了那麼接下來我就就兩個部分來看"},{"start":4417.615,"end":4433.59,"text":"其實如果我們仔細觀察原住民族群委員設19名到29名其中每族群代表均要有一名為有幾職其實我們去看一下任何的行政機關首長制的行政機關包括原住民族委員會也是首長制的機關"},{"start":4434.631,"end":4437.956,"text":"他一定有首長的機要人員從條文的設計上他隨首長任其異動而定看得出這些有幾職的竹薰委員形同舊式首長制的機要人員"},{"start":4448.463,"end":4469.474,"text":"為什麽要有這樣隨政務官進退的機構人員就是要協助這個政務官他能夠去充分的執行他的業務他在行政上原住民族委他需要族群委員當中有幾職的委員族群代表去幫他收集各族群的意見所以純粹就原住民族各族群來講"},{"start":4470.922,"end":4497.258,"text":"由幾指的族群代表來相助我們的主任委員他某種程度就是機要人員那如果大家不從這個地方去思考那另外就是用機要人員的編制但是我們的機要人員的設置呢受到我們機關總員法的設置所以我相信這當年在李登輝國民黨執政時期之所以會有這樣的設置就是規避了其他政府機關一體適用的機要人員任用的員額限制之外給予原住民族的首長"},{"start":4498.058,"end":4525.551,"text":"他有更多的機構人員來照顧所有的族群代表這是他的原因最後呢至於說到底是要由原住民平地原住民或山地原住民我還是要推崇我們剛剛社會委員說得很好不要再分你要分南克北克來分化客家人嗎你要分山園跟平原來分化原住民嗎其實剛剛高委員高金委員也說過了我們憲法當初沿用了過去的不成文的慣例"},{"start":4526.031,"end":4550.103,"text":"分成了3D原住民跟平地原住民本來就希望未來在憲法當中能夠予以把它更正那在還沒有更正之前我們不斷的去深化用3D原住民跟平地原住民來區隔原住民的對待我想這不是我們從為一個國家國民所希望的所以對這兩個條文的大力討論意見是認為一個要用一個首長制的機要人員來看待這些所謂有己職的各族群代表"},{"start":4550.723,"end":4564.757,"text":"他是在相助這個行政機關的首長能夠兼顧照管所有他的業務對象那另外一個有山原跟平原來分別輪流擔任主委這也不符合我們國家團結人民的要旨以上說明好 謝謝鍾委員那我們各位登記發大體討論的委員都已經發言完畢"},{"start":4577.165,"end":4577.865,"text":"接下來我們就進行逐條討論"},{"start":4606.831,"end":4633.609,"text":"我們先再進行逐條討論我們這次部分主要是針對有兩條就是第三條及第四條第三條有鄭天財等16人提案及高金素梅等24人提案及委員翁曉琳、鄭天財所提修正動議"},{"start":4643.865,"end":4647.667,"text":"請問本條部分是否委員有意見要提出?"},{"start":4654.918,"end":4681.811,"text":"剛才針對這個山地原住民跟平地原住民這個承襲自日本時代的這個生番熟番到後來的山地三包、平地三包到現在的山地原住民、平地原住民這個問題我想大家剛剛都有闡述那希望說委員大家等一下在審查的時候我們考慮一下這個是不是要繼續把這樣子的區分方式我們再更加的強化跟列入法制"},{"start":4682.751,"end":4683.311,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":4699.78,"end":4727.297,"text":"因為我們這個沒有任期這不是說任期一任4年那4年所以這個當完4年之後那個當4年不是他這個沒有任期所以我們假設說現在一個山地原住民來當結果他當一個月之後我要去體檢發現說他身體不行所以他就辭掉了他就當山地原住民當一個月然後再來一個平地原住民他可能當3年完了之後又輪到山地原住民就是山地原住民組委上來婚外情被抓到了又要下台了"},{"start":4728.046,"end":4731.41,"text":"．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第11屆第4會議"},{"start":4749.77,"end":4752.311,"text":"鄭委員我再次的說明之所以會有這樣的一個提案是就"},{"start":4778.139,"end":4806.593,"text":"從嚴明會成立到現在的一個事實來做一個考量來製作提出修正第一個雖然這個大家都認為憲法三顏跟平顏都要刪除但是憲法到現在還是沒有辦法刪除去把三顏跟平顏刪除掉這是第一個第二個"},{"start":4809.453,"end":4836.754,"text":"這個因為從國民政府到現在已經這麼這麼的多年了的七分包括我們的民意代表從中央到地方的鄉鎮市民代表也都做了七分在這麼長的時間的一個狀況之下我們上一屆我們有一位立委"},{"start":4838.055,"end":4865.69,"text":"他也想把地方制度法三言平言要刪掉一提啊出很大狀況出很大的狀況所以這個是一個事實已經成為一個事實很難再去要去處理了然後就嚴明會的主任委員的事實來看從李登輝總統"},{"start":4869.239,"end":4896.248,"text":"最後的兩年一直到現在從陳水扁總統的最後一年一直到蔡英文總統任內8加8加18加81616加117年是平地原住民的而三眼平眼"},{"start":4898.243,"end":4922.904,"text":"就事實上來看,有很大的差異啦。然後族群之間也有很大的差異。我是公務員出身,然後全台灣這樣跑。然後我過去在公務員的任內,三年平年都會期我是常常去的。但是如果我們去仔細分析,"},{"start":4926.714,"end":4945.733,"text":"這17年來的這些組委他去跑的行程真的平地原住民就在平地原住民的第七加上都會七對原住民的事實對原住民的問題各方面確實還是有落差"},{"start":4947.199,"end":4973.313,"text":"我是就現況來提出這樣的一個修正所以這個部分也請各位委員能夠了解能夠給予尊重這個部分是一個就事實然後就現況而言然後所提出來的很審慎的提出來的修正東西以上謝謝"},{"start":4976.014,"end":5001.536,"text":"剛才五委員先舉手針對這個條文因為我剛才聽到幾位委員的說明不只想在憲法裡頭尋求三元不要再分的突破在修憲的層次或是地制法的層次委員們都有這樣的努力的嘗試所以現在更不應當在即將要修的原住民組織法裡頭反而走回頭路"},{"start":5002.336,"end":5027.765,"text":"既然大家都想要鬆綁讓原住民族就成為一個國家都應當團結來照顧不分己族不分山地不分平地我們都在各個層面從憲法從地制法到現在都要突破的話在原民會組織法就不要把它明定寫死我覺得這個是輪流的這個真的就"},{"start":5028.405,"end":5032.786,"text":"主委的指認上也許是不是能夠更兼顧這樣子的這個部分我是具體的建議因為畢竟任何一個部會首長的提名權限他還是屬於行政權的人事權的範疇"},{"start":5050.45,"end":5071.29,"text":"我們是要用一個立法去強制去限縮或剝奪行政權的人事任命權我覺得也不宜但是我們理解這個天才委員的一些建議所以如果不要入法因為入法就跟剛剛講的憲法層次或地制法大家想要把它突破改掉"},{"start":5072.284,"end":5094.242,"text":"又會形同一個衝突跟違逆一個反方向的路的話那要不然我們也可以我個人建議啦也可以把政委員對於未來任命的這個用一個附帶決議修法的附帶決議來做一個這樣的處理提醒未來在主委的指認上要能夠兼顧"},{"start":5096.724,"end":5117.036,"text":"這個我個人建議但也不一定適合因為我還是要講這是我們不以過當的用立法的權利去影響剝奪了行政院的人事統一權但是這種用一種附帶決議或是提醒的方式我覺得都是可以考量但是入法修法這就萬萬不可"},{"start":5121.411,"end":5149.543,"text":"中委員謝謝非常謝謝我們主席我們在主條的時候可以充分的就委員之間不同的見解來進行探討那其實我想氣氛不要那麼僵硬我不好意思把我們的副主委拉進來我們中新華副主務人委員他姓鍾我也姓鍾但是我相信我們之間的血緣關係應該沒有比親兄弟更親所以過去我在屏東我們"},{"start":5150.787,"end":5178.892,"text":"中副主委是我們春日鄉的七家的人我們常常在屏東出現遇到的中副主委都是我們是異父異母的兄弟什麼叫做異父異母父親不同一個母親也不同一個其實這個開玩笑其實我們都姓中但是我們大概沒有什麼血緣上的關係其實我要回應一下剛剛政委員我們在談的其實你看一看目前我國的法律大概我們的國民是一視同仁的"},{"start":5180.151,"end":5208.079,"text":"重視有客家人的稱謂家父呢在族群上他講客家話被歸類是客家人但是我雖然客家話不會講不太會講但是呢我認同客家的文化跟客家的精神但是法律上沒有限定我的身份是哪一種族群所以事實上在我們目前的法律當中除了原住民的身份是依著他的父母而給定的之外其他人並沒有給定一個特定"},{"start":5208.479,"end":5208.84,"text":"議員高金素梅"},{"start":5224.229,"end":5249.289,"text":"但是原住民族因為他的身份的取得跟他的居住是分離的他今天就算搬到了都會我們稱之為都會原住民他還是依著他原來的身份的登記是為三地原住民或為平地原住民某個程度上來講這樣的一個區分的標誌在許多的國家都不認為是一個進步的做法舉例來講我們談的籍貫"},{"start":5251.533,"end":5267.806,"text":"不久之前還有人在提出說台灣的國軍將領的晉升上面的資料表上有極冠我想現在的主流意見都認為國民啊他不應該再有一個極冠的標誌我們的身份證也把極冠廢止了"},{"start":5268.767,"end":5297.675,"text":"為什麼籍貫在會被視為一個不是一個社會公平的一個標誌呢因為這個籍貫不是你能決定的你的父親或者母親你從父親或從母親決定了你的籍貫所在但是目前我們原住民身份的取得還是因循著這種血緣跟從父親或從母親來取得如果3D原住民跟平地原住民結婚之後他的子女到底是3D原住民還是平地原住民"},{"start":5298.195,"end":5313.8,"text":"後來在身份認定上就是看他是從母還是從父那請問這樣的一個區分對於原住民真正台灣這塊土地的主人有更進步的價值跟意義嗎?所以我在這裡呢其實也是很想要跟我們鄭天財委員做個探討"},{"start":5315.64,"end":5339.09,"text":"我們可能過去一直有對於三地原住民跟平地原住民的區隔耿耿於懷但是我現在看到的多數我認識的原住民的朋友縱使他居住在都會地區他以原住民的文化為傲他可以告訴我他的父親盧凱族母親排灣族他們有什麼各自的文化差異他們有什麼樣的圖騰象徵我都很樂於分享"},{"start":5339.73,"end":5368.15,"text":"但是這是我眼中原住民的文化就是台灣最豐富多元最有獨特性的文化所以我不會去區分他到底是3D原住民還是平地原住民就像我在看待我的異父異母的兄弟中心化副主委一樣我們有共同的姓氏但是我相信他的血液裡面他認同的文化裡面我們都有互相彼此值得欣賞跟尊重的所以我也不會因此去推動一個姓氏而做"},{"start":5369.131,"end":5398.221,"text":"法律上權力區隔的一個法律的倡議因為爭據你先天的身份取得而做身份上不同的法律對待的一個設計就不是一個符合一個法律人民平等的原則那我當然知道這不是我們鄭天財委員修正的原意他可能是希望說我們的原住民族的主委在任命的時候能夠更兼顧到他有那麼多的原住民的同胞要去代表"},{"start":5399.399,"end":5414.086,"text":"但在實務上我們不要談理念談實務上在技術上剛剛陳委員也提出了所謂的法律上的輪流擔任是一個沒有辦法去精確規範的立法技術所謂你說"},{"start":5416.167,"end":5434.505,"text":"每一個原住民族委被任命的時候他的任期必須是身份必須是輪流之外他的任期不得超過前一個前面的三地原住民的族委如果做了三年你後面的就不能做超過三年不然就不公平了不然的話你這個輪流要達到公平的意旨"},{"start":5435.424,"end":5457.432,"text":"因為輪流的目的是要公平。所謂說你輪流的目的,如果輪流的目的不再公平,我們幹嘛定輪流?就是認為山園跟平原之間要公平。所以有一任山園,一任平原。那如果這個公平的原則推廣下去,就會衍生出這樣的細節出來。前一任山園做了三年,後面的不能超過三年,不然就不公平。"},{"start":5458.824,"end":5462.208,"text":"這樣的一個公平會是沒完沒了所以我在這裡很誠懇地希望透過這個組條討論的對話我希望跟政委員討論在立法技巧上怎麼樣可以達到你希望未來原住民族委在任用的時候能夠兼顧到他團結原住民各族群的這樣的作用"},{"start":5476.104,"end":5491.931,"text":"但是又不要去造成一個已經多數的進步的國家社會它所逐漸揚起的用鮮豔的身份來設定你不同的法律待遇那第二個在公平的一個設計上現在的法律的文字設計"},{"start":5492.871,"end":5521.533,"text":"或許也不太容易達到我們政委員所提出的一個三元跟平原輪流擔任的公平原則我剛講兩個原則一個代表性原則一個是公平原則代表性原則我認為不宜再去強化三元跟平原之間的差異我們尊重不同族群之間的語言跟文化但是我們希望原住民族在台灣我們有特定的一個法律地位我們應該珍惜第二個公平的部分輪流的擔任的法律條文的設計"},{"start":5522.393,"end":5531.155,"text":"不太容易能夠落實所要求的一個公平的效果以上兩點來就教其他不同意見的委員好那張委員其實大家都剛講了蠻多山地跟山園跟平原其實我個人是比較覺得你如果現在去區分山園跟平原我覺得也有點怪怪的"},{"start":5549.958,"end":5575.044,"text":"那我覺得在這個法律條文我們要的應該不是山原跟平原輪流擔任我們要的其實反而是原住民的各族各族的權益要被均等的照顧跟被重視所以我覺得這個輪流擔任山原跟平原我覺得是可以有討論的空間我們可以給他改成看如何比較寫得比較好我覺得反而是各"},{"start":5576.204,"end":5577.265,"text":"那還有哪一位?"},{"start":5590.464,"end":5612.939,"text":"蘇委員我想直接接續張宏祿委員的話因為我們早上有討論過這個我自己當然大家知道我現在確實是所謂原住民的媳婦那所以在這樣子的部分我可能有一點瞭解的是說原住民族其實還是有非常多不同的族群"},{"start":5613.519,"end":5629.683,"text":"他甚至不應該被分為什麼山地原住民跟平地原住民因為每一個族群都有自己的特性跟脈絡跟文化歷史等等所以他都應該被尊重被看見那在這樣的狀況下分山園跟平園其實過去害人給他們的一個產物用這樣來區分的類別我不認為是適當的但是反過來我認為要擔任原住民族委的人應該具有什麼樣的身份呢我認為是"},{"start":5643.428,"end":5659.251,"text":"主委必須全盤的了解十幾族各族的原住民都有什麼樣的特性脈絡和族群的位置歷史等等要能夠了解所有各族群的"},{"start":5659.591,"end":5662.832,"text":"我反而不認為應該現在用這樣的方式再用過去漢人家族給原住民族的這個分類方式再一次的重新寫在現代的條文裡面以上是我的意見"},{"start":5689.127,"end":5715.458,"text":"那黃委員黃委員好謝謝主席我的意見其實跟前面巧惠然後紅綠委員的意見是差不多的因為其實我覺得這個提出來的本意是很好我覺得天才委員的本意非常好因為我們也希望說這個回歸到原住民自治的這樣的精神可是在條文的設計上我認為會跟我們想要的精神跟目的會有一點"},{"start":5716.298,"end":5724.425,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條文修正"},{"start":5737.875,"end":5738.395,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":5759.273,"end":5784.498,"text":"的衝突的狀態提升那反而造成彼此的分化所以我認為再加上現在其實原住民族散落在很多大家住的地方有人在都市裡面大家住的地方不一樣那所以是不是這樣的文字有符合我們想要的造成的這樣的目的嗎我覺得可以再討論一下那其實如剛剛巧慧所說的我覺得要擔任這個主委他的"},{"start":5785.618,"end":5813.923,"text":"指責跟他應該要做到的是要了解每一個族背後的歷史脈絡跟文化所以要符合這樣子的他有這樣的能力才是最重要的所以如果要真的要達到轉型正義或是背後的公平的目的應該是要把這樣的文字加進去就是擔任主委的人他到底要有怎樣的能力而不是他必須是符合平地或山地這樣的身分別好 我想要說我的意見 謝謝"},{"start":5816.351,"end":5842.02,"text":"陳委員陳委員剛陳委員好謝謝主席那從9點開始我們針對這個案子討論其實我聽起來我覺得我個人的一些意見跟想法因為原住民族現在在我們現今的這個社會上其實也有許多都是非常傑出的而且在各行各業裡面"},{"start":5842.5,"end":5843.901,"text":"．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":5861.249,"end":5885.44,"text":"那因為剛剛聽起來我們一直在討論說平地原住民或是山地原住民的部分能夠在未來他們組委的部分能夠輪值來擔任我覺得這個可能比較不妥是因為要擔任一個組委的人應該我們要講究的是他的能力的問題假設如果我們再去論述說平地原住民跟山地原住民要輪流來擔任的話"},{"start":5887.401,"end":5892.135,"text":"那可能在這方面我們會忽略掉反而會忽略掉讓"},{"start":5895.32,"end":5919.881,"text":"這個單任組委的人沒辦法充分來做為一個關心所有族群的一個角色的話這或許對於行政部門來講也不願樂見那對於這個輪值的情況反而會讓這個所謂的山地跟平地這個名稱一直在那邊重複的這個在整個族人裡面在討論的話"},{"start":5921.042,"end":5945.572,"text":"反而會讓整個原住民更加對立所以我希望說這個部分我們是不是再思考一下以上那王委員主席在這裡我的意見因為剛才也有很多我們的董事講過說三地原住民及平地的原住民是要怎樣如何可以成為這個主委最好的"},{"start":5947.413,"end":5949.194,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":5975.465,"end":5984.773,"text":"身體都應該有這個機會可以做我覺得要做一個主委不是很簡單每一個族我們都要去了解、去了關心因為我相信在座所有的同事也有他們的原住民的未來將來的事情可以更好所以今天我們也為了"},{"start":6003.717,"end":6010.658,"text":"這間條款會選另外的意見大家來合作看什麼好,以上好,請問您委員好,謝謝主席我想剛才聆聽了我們民進黨委員的這個意見其實我想這一次的一個修法其實我們看得出來它的主要的重點是充分要尊重原住民族的自治精神"},{"start":6033.562,"end":6053.142,"text":"委員剛才美惠也講得很好啦就是說當然是是不是要主委跟副主委都要由我們山地或者平地以原住民來輪流擔任其實該嘉賓講到一點就是要符合公平性跟代表性那我們知道現行的法律啊現行就是有山民跟原民的一個區分嘛"},{"start":6054.203,"end":6066.792,"text":"所以說這個原住民族的主任委員或者副主任委員是不是也要由這兩個族群來分別來擔任我想比較尊重原住民族他們的一個自治的精神"},{"start":6067.574,"end":6096.49,"text":"那麼現在看起來就是說大部分的原住民的部落他們認為現在原民會如果是僅就是都是有一個也不是做好不好的問題啦就你只是每次都是同一個這個原民或者這個山民來擔任他們認為這個就沒有公平性了沒有公平性了山地原住民跟平地原住民就是說你沒有輪流擔任的話對他們來講好像他們覺得不公平這個就沒有公平性了"},{"start":6097.951,"end":6114.633,"text":"如果說是輪流擔任我想這個就有一個符合公平性也這個有充分的一個代表不同的三地原住民跟平地原住民他們的這樣子一個各個族群都有平等來擔任他們主委或副主委這樣的一個機會"},{"start":6115.974,"end":6128.923,"text":"所以這個是比較落實我們公平性以及代表性的一個原則所以我們還是希望各位委員大家能夠支持我們鄭天財委員還有高金委員他的一個提案以上謝謝"},{"start":6132.932,"end":6161.47,"text":"那請問還有沒有委員要發...好...那個...他說還有這個...那個...那個...那個...那個...我們也是希望這個條文齁能夠站在有效立法的情況之下我們大家沒有太多的分歧齁我們就去用協商的但是還是很好意的齁提醒一下我們提案委員齁思考一個情況啦"},{"start":6162.21,"end":6190.871,"text":"因為我剛剛一直在強調說目前的三元跟平原的身份取得不是以居住地的遷徙他是依著父或母的身份認別那如果我父親是三元我母親是平原其實依照目前的原住民身份法的規定我是可以要改成三元就三元改成平原就平原所以如果這個法條通過之後呢會有那種父母雙方各為三元平原的人他未來在任用的時候他都可以因著接下來的"},{"start":6191.852,"end":6208.117,"text":"主委是因愛憂三元的時候他就是以他的父母雙方一方的身份來主張他的族群別那這個其實這是凸顯出我為什麼在講這個聽起來有點荒謬的說法呢其實為什麼用父或母的血緣來認定"},{"start":6209.633,"end":6210.333,"text":"翁委員要表達一件事"},{"start":6235.436,"end":6244.394,"text":"是,我想這個今天鄭天財委員為什麼要推出這個法案,這個背後其實他反映一件"},{"start":6245.461,"end":6272.979,"text":"重要的事情就是看起來原住民族的主委在過去這些年的施政裡面似乎沒有照顧到山原跟平原的同胞是一致的也就是說可能如果說今天是屬於平地原住民的主委那在長期以來因為他還是掌有龐大的行政資源"},{"start":6273.579,"end":6277.263,"text":"司法及內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":6295.243,"end":6314.629,"text":"行政資源做一個比較公平還有就是比較適當的一個分配那我認為說其實這樣的一個修法也還是有意義的那當然現在這個情況之下似乎就是大家對於這個條文還是有些意義有些意見的話那我們就不如就送政黨協商"},{"start":6318.41,"end":6322.092,"text":"請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出?五委員"},{"start":6345.67,"end":6371.347,"text":"第四條我想現在重點因為一些部分已經提出修正條文拿掉更爭議的部分就是聚焦在是不是無極職是不是無極職的部分我想再次強調現在被聘用的這些原住民族的委員們他們是經過相當的聆聘指派的程序"},{"start":6372.365,"end":6396.528,"text":"所以他的聘用委員他的代表性專業性都應當能夠彰顯來服務原住民族的這些目的目標那另外呢要看看他們的工作本職啦剛剛有委員提到說總統府的這個原住民族轉型正義推動委員會的委員就是吳己職啊"},{"start":6397.449,"end":6425.431,"text":"但是完全性質不同總統府的這個原轉會的委員他是一個任務編組他是一個專家學者的身份或是原民代表的身份是參與討論提供政策的建議解方他不像現在原民會的這些聘用委員目前應當是16位他們是兼具他們的工作性質就如同是正職的公務體系的人員"},{"start":6426.519,"end":6441.513,"text":"所以他們服務的範圍項目非常的廣尤其整個上山下海原鄉的服務員又這麼的廣大那剛剛委員都提到對於山地原住民平地原住民的照顧都不能偏廢"},{"start":6442.774,"end":6459.56,"text":"所以樣樣像像這些工作都肩負在這16位的聘用委員身上所以我想要非常清楚的說明他們不是一般我們所想像的委員會任務編組型的組成的委員"},{"start":6460.78,"end":6489.559,"text":"他們是經過有國家的法制聆聘要點然後有適用的條件經過一定程序聆聘而來的工作性質本身就是正職的公務人員所以不要把他們理解錯誤甚至用仇庸這種言詞再次強調這是不好的那我要提醒正因為要對於原住民族的擴大照顧"},{"start":6490.96,"end":6505.2,"text":"我剛的發言我想再強調一次就上個會期在內政委員會我們共同在地制法修法提升了直轄市縣市議員原住民族的服務費"},{"start":6508.143,"end":6522.038,"text":"所以為什麼要給予直轄市縣市議員額外的20%的人民服務費就是我們當初肯認到要服務的服務員這麼廣"},{"start":6523.84,"end":6549.215,"text":"所以是那個時候修法我想提案的委員那時候的主張是這樣可是現在卻我們對於民意代表自己要增加原住民族的合理的薪酬百分之二十可是對於公務機關正值人力同樣在服務原住民卻要把他的薪資全部的來剝奪"},{"start":6551.308,"end":6575.732,"text":"我覺得這樣是真的照顧原住民族嗎是可以讓這些委員發揮他應有的功能嗎所以我們站在照顧原住民族的立場這樣子該給的合理的薪酬該給就給這是公務體系應當有的制度所以請大家能夠這樣的條文我想要在審慎考量一下"},{"start":6577.213,"end":6577.373,"text":"主席"},{"start":6586.654,"end":6607.888,"text":"這個的薪水對於原住民族的議員來講的國會議員來講其實是壓力很大的事情嘛可是為什麼今天會被提出來要被討論就顯然這個機制有很多很奇怪的問題嘛第一個當然講說這個要這個剛剛我們民進黨委員講說他要協助這個原民會這個體察明末對不對這個多重的服務對不對那我就問啊"},{"start":6608.989,"end":6629.075,"text":"這些所謂的 這個叫什麼 委員是吧 族群委員 他的產生有沒有符合由下而上的原則 有嗎 不一定吧 你現在看起來派 說派誰就派誰不是嗎 實務上的制度就是這樣嘛 剛剛講他每個月拿8萬多塊的薪水 這個是跟縣市議員差不多的 他沒有經過選舉嗎"},{"start":6630.731,"end":6647.209,"text":"沒有吧?他們有沒有經過國家的考試?具不具備專業的職能?都沒有那是不是顯然在這個產生的過程中的這個領選的過程是有很大的檢討的必要這個時候不能相悅你不能情緒勒索捏說好像砍掉這樣就是違反族人權益不是的捏"},{"start":6647.91,"end":6667.852,"text":"如果這個產出的人他並沒有由下而上並沒有地方的正當性也沒有通過國家考試的專業性那他拿這麼多的薪水合理嗎這是法理上可以討論的地方第二個實務上剛剛不是這一段時間不是都講了嗎這些族群委員裡面有沒有民意代表的助理啊好像有吧"},{"start":6671.363,"end":6693.671,"text":"那公平嗎?我就問公平嗎?這個的產生機制如果是由執政黨產生然後剛剛好一切都是這麼正好又是執政黨的原住民的國會議員的助理擔任八萬多塊的族群委員公平嗎?難道不應該檢討嗎?剛剛有人講說這類似機要任用你原住民委員會本身沒有機要嗎?"},{"start":6694.531,"end":6713.511,"text":"主委本身就有機要啦那你機要再加機要合理嗎所以我覺得這些事情把它改成無幾值算是一個很平衡的你可以多找一些人有一些名目擴大服務都很好但在這個地方你還要用公帑來養人恐怕有失公允啊"},{"start":6714.171,"end":6732.157,"text":"所以我是覺得這個把它修正成無極值我認為是非常有必要的要不然你也要針對整個林聘林選的這個機制做全面的檢討嘛如果這兩個都不做那就不要怪大家講說這就是為了栽培這個特定政黨的政治人才不管誰執政都有可能做這樣的事嘛"},{"start":6732.817,"end":6759.834,"text":"我們寧願把這筆錢剛剛我們講其實原住民裡面有民族議會對不對有部落會議你把這些錢當給部落會議的車馬費或補助不也比較符合基層下情上達的精神嗎所以我是覺得很有檢討的必要以上好 謝謝那下一位是鄭天財委員鄭委員完就是黃潔委員再高金委員中委員跟王委員這樣就我們依照舉手順序好那我們請鄭委員"},{"start":6762.806,"end":6789.022,"text":"各位委員本席之所以會提出來是因為長期的觀察從嚴明會民國85年12月10號成立一直到現在我在嚴明會服務了非常多年當立委之後這是長期的觀察就認為要修剛才吳世堯"},{"start":6791.356,"end":6817.786,"text":"委員所提的都非常好沒有錯如果能夠回到這個相關的這些規定當然都沒有問題早期都是這樣早期的族群委員都是符合的但是這段時間真的不一樣了剛才委員講的那是輪流擔任了他"},{"start":6818.933,"end":6839.978,"text":"他們的人輪流擔任,所以這個部分已經失去了族群的代表性。剛才高金素梅委員有提到,有好幾個族群有民主議會,民主議會一直希望能夠透過他的機制,"},{"start":6841.889,"end":6863.3,"text":"民族議會來產生但是完全沒有辦法完全沒有完全不尊重所以已經失去了當初的理想原住民族自治的理想已經失去了所以不得不修剛才委員有提到我們要修這個有壓力的"},{"start":6867.267,"end":6892.826,"text":"原住民的立委要把這個有幾值變成無幾值是我們有壓力的所以我們願意承擔這樣的壓力所以我還是要拜託回到剛才我一開始講的原住民族的議題尤其是原住民族的這種法例"},{"start":6894.636,"end":6920.573,"text":"我還是希望大家能夠尊重原住民族的立委的意見以上好那我們接下來請黃婕委員好當然我也認為說這個聘用的委員應該要有他的代表性然後可以反映我們所有原住民族的意見可是在這一條裡面的修法如果把這個委員改為吳己職就能夠達到"},{"start":6922.432,"end":6924.933,"text":"委員提到說對個別的委員有意見那如果是因為對個別的委員有意見就來把所有的委員變成無極職"},{"start":6938.32,"end":6938.34,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":6955.296,"end":6973.107,"text":"而不是在這邊突然大刀一揮就要讓所有的委員無極職好像有點在懲罰所有用心在審這些原住民事務以及為原住民事務付出的所有的委員我認為是非常不公平的"},{"start":6973.407,"end":6973.787,"text":"）立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":6993.169,"end":6996.874,"text":"他們這麼努力的在這個事務上面付出可是說那你必須要無償的來付出那這樣真的公平嗎那這些對他們勞心勞力付出的這些委員來說是不是一種勞動的剝削呢我認為這個"},{"start":7010.489,"end":7034.223,"text":"該給的就是要給不應該用這種無極值的方式甚至說他們是仇傭難道他們沒有付出應有的勞動的成果嗎包括說他們要做的事情非常多要審查原住民族的政策法規還要處理原民事務的協調甚至要到現場會刊甚至是要參加非常多的活動"},{"start":7035.063,"end":7035.803,"text":"謝謝,那我們下一位請高金委員"},{"start":7063.047,"end":7075.035,"text":"非常謝謝,我想黃姐委員,剛剛我第一次在發言的時候,可能你沒有聽到我的發言,我現在再一次發言,而且你可能也是新進的委員,不太清楚,我再講一次。其實族群委員在2020年的時候,就發生了格馬蘭族族群委員抗議。"},{"start":7080.999,"end":7105.668,"text":"所以一將主委當時就感覺到我們來臨聘這些所謂的族群委員他必須是由下而上的聲音尤其我講到現在我們至少有非常多的部落已經有部落會議了那部落會議是法定給他的一決部落的事項那族群委員當然也應該在部會"},{"start":7106.288,"end":7106.809,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":7127.051,"end":7147.638,"text":"民文的寫這些制度,一直到現在還是沒有修改啊。然後在今年10月9號,再一次跟了Kacaw組手上,這個就是他們的抗議書啊。我念一遍他們的抗議書。令人深感遺憾的是本族族人所共同推薦的候選人,最終未能被原住民族委員會選任。"},{"start":7149.139,"end":7177.992,"text":"此結果不僅讓本族感到失望也讓本會還有族人對整個建任制度的公正性產生質疑所以他們認為這樣的決定忽視了族人集體的意見對本族的歷史文化還有當前所需要根本就沒有充分的尊重我想請問一下原民會你們都不尊重每一個族群委員的代表性請問一下各部會首長還會尊重我們原住民族嗎?"},{"start":7179.032,"end":7189.988,"text":"難怪行政院三讀通過的禁法補償他可以也不理啊拿原住民當忌旗啊所以呢我覺得我今天提跟鄭天財提這個案子"},{"start":7191.718,"end":7207.819,"text":"我們是符合由下而上的精神八萬一千多塊相當於一個議員的薪水這些人又不是部落裡面領選出來的他們坦白說我做了23年"},{"start":7209.321,"end":7214.205,"text":"真的這八年來非常離譜這些族群委員在地方上其實只是跑婚喪喜慶然後慶典上面就大肆的宣傳做了什麼 園民會做了什麼族群委員如果只是這種功能的話八萬一千塊領的會不會也太容易了呢"},{"start":7232.017,"end":7232.238,"text":"）立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":7248.519,"end":7248.979,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":7267.17,"end":7287.577,"text":"下一位我們請王委員主席,在此我認為鄭在董事都為了有機子及無機子的說因為剛才我也聽我們的董事說到什麼人的助力在裡面做我也聽一個很輕鬆的覺得這樣又不太好"},{"start":7292.162,"end":7296.343,"text":"在這個過程當中,在這幾十年來,剛才我們這個制度當然是不好的,我們要改,但是我覺得,如果覺得沒有我們的族群的委員可以為他作文來合約,"},{"start":7310.187,"end":7320.911,"text":"委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人�"},{"start":7341.501,"end":7366.133,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來我們請鍾委員好 謝謝主席剛剛聆聽了幾位委員的發言我們不禁要問的是到底是制度上的問題還是執行上出的問題剛剛幾位委員指責過去原民會的主委或原民會本身對這幾位有己職的族群代表的運用上並沒有落實他們應盡的一些職份先如我剛剛所比喻的其實"},{"start":7369.995,"end":7395.516,"text":"其聘籍隨主任委員異動而更易這句話的法律效果他就形同是機要人員或說他是政務人員隨政務首長同進退那目前在我們的文官體制當中為什麼會允許政務首長他可以有機要任用呢其實呢不只是政務首長在地方政府當中你民選首長有五名的機要任用的職缺"},{"start":7397.557,"end":7405.087,"text":"鄉長有兩名那麼如果是機關的首長就是縣市政府以下的下級機關首長也有兩名"},{"start":7405.984,"end":7435.176,"text":"那到中央部會呢?據我所知也是五名那如果以我們中央政府的這二三十個部會來說其實當年這個立法例其實是對其他的部會首長的機要任用其實是某種程度的優待或特殊待遇因為其他的部會首長都只有五個機要人員可以任用是有知心的但是我們的法律我們的原住民族組織法原住民族委員會的組織法特別賦予了"},{"start":7436.937,"end":7453.238,"text":"獨獨我們原住民主委員會這個部會首長他有19到29個當中的族群代表可以用機要任命的方式是有幾隻換言之其他部會首長只能用5個原民會主委可以用多少"},{"start":7455.122,"end":7478.638,"text":"因為他的數額我沒有拿到統計表我是建議可能主席也會把本案如果說有保留要交互協商我是希望在未來鄭天財委員會期望協商的時候原民會能夠提供到底自從原住民族委員會設置有這個條文以來各界的主委他運用這個條文他到底任用了多少形同機要人員的有幾值的族群代表"},{"start":7479.258,"end":7496.293,"text":"我還是要強調一次這個法律的立法力其實是特別優待原住民族委員會的主委優待這個部會首長他超越了其他中華民國各部會的首長的五名機要任用權他有十多位的有幾職的機要任用權"},{"start":7497.254,"end":7512.341,"text":"至於要不要刪除,我是覺得我都尊重大家的意見,因為畢竟這是特殊性的立法,當年有它特殊性的考慮。如果大家覺得這個特殊性的考慮已經消失了,原民會的主委做一個部會首長,他就跟其他的政務首長一樣,就是五名的機構任用權。"},{"start":7512.961,"end":7513.221,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7529.565,"end":7536.309,"text":"．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7554.179,"end":7582.174,"text":"但是如果把他拿掉通通是無幾職那就表示未來的原住民的主委只有跟人家一樣5個機要職可以用少了這十幾個有幾職的主委可以用那各族群也本身少了類似這樣有幾職的機要人員可以來協助主委來照顧他們那至於執行上有沒有什麼問題有沒有成立其他委員所說的他們沒有辦法沒有辦法好好的任職沒有辦法去做好他們應做的事情這的確要追究"},{"start":7582.794,"end":7594.837,"text":"如果主委任用的機要人員或部會上任用的機要人員沒有禁止工作,那是另外一個層次的問題。以上,建議要一個統計表給我們大家參考。主席,我覺得歷史是一面鏡子,我們看著歷史就可以找到很多問題的答案。"},{"start":7607.302,"end":7630.024,"text":"首先還是要回歸到我們前面講程序的處理狀況我提醒一下民進黨的朋友在2017年12月4日林靜儀擔任委員會主席的時候當時蔣恩恩針對勞基法提出了一個臨時提案"},{"start":7631.121,"end":7648.508,"text":"林子儀很卑微說主席不可以限制立委只有一輪發言的時間希望能夠讓立委能夠充分表達意見就這麼簡單的一個提案當時的主席林靜儀說本主席可以決定發言時間跟發言資訊不予處理"},{"start":7651.824,"end":7671.945,"text":"連不予處理啊 人家提案都不處理了 對不對所以啊 我跟各位說 我們中憲委員很客氣了他在那招委 對不對 大家對大體那個討論 覺得說不能說只有一輪他後來也沒強制啊 大家上去還是繼續講啊 對 就是繼續講啊可是我還是要講一個道理出來啦"},{"start":7673.566,"end":7701.933,"text":"關鍵是不能每次每次都這樣子我是有點我有點受不了捏每次都是民進黨可以別人都不可以民進黨做的都天公地道別人做的都罪該萬死我覺得這樣真的不好啦所以歷史是一面鏡子而且我們的民進黨委員們好好看看林靜怡這面鏡子啦那第二個我就回到今天這個問題我覺得剛剛我們鍾佳平講的真好啊他把族群委員說成是機要啊"},{"start":7703.072,"end":7722.908,"text":"哇 說成這樣法律也沒寫機要兩個字啊 對不對他把它說成機要欸 那我先講兩件事啊 我覺得我們就是認識啊第一個齁 你說這是歷史已久的一個制度 沒錯啦可是以前有發生過什麼"},{"start":7724.17,"end":7739.582,"text":"新任葛馬蘭族族群委員遭到葛馬蘭族地方領袖共同連署抗議,然後呢,這是要派同一位爭議人選擔任該族群委員嗎?以前在這個制度實施的過程當中,有一直發現這個問題嗎?"},{"start":7742.145,"end":7742.866,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":7761.909,"end":7771.784,"text":"我們講今天一個制度檢討就是建網跟知來嘛那你沒進到執政的時候你沒有好好善用這個制度給你的一個彈性"},{"start":7773.787,"end":7799.847,"text":"結果呢搞到最後變成什麼搞到變成什麼一直都有爭議出來嘛這是為什麼今天連我們原住民的委員都必須站出來講話啦再來講知來啦過去齁民進黨剛剛我們中委員講說要追究這種這種所謂的執行不好的狀況啊那民進黨先把追究報告弄出來以前怎麼可以這樣子亂搞第二個我要講什麼我也不客氣講啊"},{"start":7801.384,"end":7820.513,"text":"現在明明有更好的制度啊以前制度如果不好現在就改嘛剛剛王美惠委員講嘛不好就改嘛明明族群委員族群委員中文不需要我翻譯吧族群委員就是代表族群的委員族群委員什麼時候變機要啊變成首長機要啊"},{"start":7823.868,"end":7842.474,"text":"沒關係,我跟你講,來喔,有風度一點點,我再發言。不是,等一下等一下,我真的有要講,這個原則問題。當初宗嘉賓答應過我,發言的時候不要干擾喔,結果你在那邊干擾,還不懂閉嘴,還不懂閉嘴。沒關係啦,沒關係。就像昨天講不贏就走,我也認同啦。"},{"start":7843.308,"end":7867.96,"text":"那我要跟大家講很簡單一件事情啊建網知來嘛你今天為什麼有這個檢討你沒有好好做這個制度嘛那知來是什麼這制度明明就有改善的地方現在我們就有原住民就有民族會議啊就有部落會議啊那你應該就有原住民的民族會議部落會議由下而上的推舉人嘛"},{"start":7869.136,"end":7892.609,"text":"這是為了我們原住民新生可以更廣泛的上達今天我們原住民主委啊所以我認為剛剛我們民進黨的朋友這麼這麼的關心我們今天原住民的那個新生的話那你就尊重由下而上的機制以前做不好未來做更好嘛所以拜託拜託就支持這個案子謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請省委員"},{"start":7899.68,"end":7917.597,"text":"這個我就覺得很奇怪,我們大家都在好好的就原住民委員所提的兩個案子,大家好好的就事論事討論,就是有人不談藍綠衝突,他大概不會談其他的,開口閉口就要罵政黨,這個有助於討論嗎?"},{"start":7920.885,"end":7945.564,"text":"也許大家剛剛在協商的過程也許已經協商出一些共識結果你這樣講了之後那我們要怎麼履行這個共識呢所以我還是就法條來論法條啦齁這個齁剛剛好好等一下我還在發言喔高金委員對不起這個剛剛所有的討論齁"},{"start":7949.281,"end":7958.879,"text":"有一個很關鍵的問題就是我們現在的原民會因為我們剛剛講的很多概念其實是牽涉到原住民族自治的概念"},{"start":7961.229,"end":7982.534,"text":"但是事實上原民會它不是原住民族自治機關 這個很清楚它是一個原住民族的事務機關它是行政院在組織法第一條寫得很清楚行政院統合原住民族政策保障原住民族權益辦理原住民族業務它本身就不是一個自治機關"},{"start":7986.667,"end":8006.938,"text":"我講這樣子,剛剛我就一直要理解說我們提案委員或者主張刪除薪資變成無給職的委員的法制上的理由是什麼但結果都不是法制上的理由,都是個別的現在委員做得不好,現在這個委員他們領這個薪水太多"},{"start":8008.103,"end":8022.102,"text":"那這個我就覺得說他變成不是就事論事好像說一個部長做得不好所以我們就來砍縮部長的薪水全部都變成部長變成無極職好像兩個立法委員在議場打架我們就說那時候立法委員的薪水全部砍掉立法委員變成無極職"},{"start":8024.082,"end":8051.754,"text":"這個我覺得不是我們立法應該設計的制度啦就是說現在如果說現在的這些族群委員有做得不好的那我們做立法委員我們就是把這個族群委員叫來我們就請這個原民會處理啊這主委要負責啊那怎麼會是一兩個族群委員的問題之後就變成把薪水全部刪掉變無幾值呢我認為這個我是真的是覺得要三思的齁那這個"},{"start":8055.265,"end":8055.385,"text":"陳俊宇委員"},{"start":8070.219,"end":8086.118,"text":"我覺得因為我們討論結果好像是聽起來是對於其中某些這個特定的人的人員的問題那應該我們要回歸到說我們是不是要針對人員管理的部分來做檢討"},{"start":8087.259,"end":8109.106,"text":"因為你如果有幾職的話應該對於這個有領有這個薪資的人會有一套這個相關的管理跟約束的辦法應該是要來落實把人員管理的部分做一個適當的調整之後應該這個問題就沒有了那有幾職跟無幾職的問題我覺得是這樣子因為我們"},{"start":8113.107,"end":8140,"text":"這個原住民的這個整個山地或是平地的部分復原遼闊那你如果說我們現在所編定的這些人員他是無脊植的話我覺得未來可能會是形同虛設沒辦法去關心到每一個族群所需要去注目的一些議題那對於原住民來講或許也是一個損失所以有脊植跟無脊植"},{"start":8141.049,"end":8141.509,"text":"下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":8185.787,"end":8193.476,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員因為我當初看到這個提案的時候我真的有一點震驚震驚的理由是說"},{"start":8195.049,"end":8222.328,"text":"好像表面上面看起來一個是利益良善看起來啦利益良善的制度那但是為什麼會有原住民的委員要把他們所謂的聘任委員的給刪除掉所以我就想我一定要想辦法知道這到底是發生了什麼樣的事情我才有辦法今天負責任的在審查第四條的時候把它搞清楚"},{"start":8224.346,"end":8237.701,"text":"大家說他們一個月八萬多塊我剛剛去問了我們的園民會看起來不只這個樣子但以今年來講16位委員花多少錢兩千兩百萬16位委員"},{"start":8245.417,"end":8264.808,"text":"兩千兩百萬算起來一個人一年我們國家的成本是一百三十五萬一百三十五萬當我們國家一年要花一個人一百三十五萬的時候我相信啊全體國民會很關心啊這個人是怎麼產生的在我國的文官體系當中多少年輕人"},{"start":8273.188,"end":8296.418,"text":"多少新興學子大家要拚高考拚普考甚至國營事業不是高普考的都還有入門晉升的考試才可以拿到那個薪水才可以有這個待遇結果我們這個所謂的聘用的委員一個人一年花國家135萬怎麼產生的"},{"start":8300.216,"end":8328.667,"text":"高雄委員說啊他們有專業有經驗有臨選要點臨聘要點很嚴謹我就去看了這個臨聘要點這臨聘要點哪裡有嚴謹啊那臨聘要點的資格我跟大家報告一下熱心族群服務或深暗原住民事務生育卓著我只要熱心就可以了"},{"start":8329.909,"end":8354.542,"text":"那就變成是怎麼選出來的嘛我又看了條文他說委員的臨庭必要的時候可以召開審查委員會審議那我就很關心所以我剛請教了一下副主委今年的委員什麼時候開審查會議的他跟我說7月5號我說審了多久他跟我說15個委員審了一個小時"},{"start":8357.235,"end":8371.743,"text":"15個委員審了一個小時我說審查的時候你們有沒有看到履歷表他說沒有審查的時候沒有看到履歷表那我說你們審查的時候看到什麼審查的時候看到名單啊連履歷表都不用附啊這什麼專業啊這什麼嚴謹啊這個到底是怎麼選出來的啊這不會太離譜嗎"},{"start":8385.41,"end":8406.219,"text":"用這種要點連履歷表都不用交15個人審一個小時看名單結果什麼 要欺騙社會大眾啊這個很專業啊非常的專業啊什麼樣的專業所以我就忍不住去找啦 來來來來我們來看一下他們有什麼專業剛剛有民進黨的委員說哇他聽說有立委的助理他聽到很害怕的"},{"start":8415.766,"end":8436.565,"text":"我覺得他講的有道理執政黨的委員願意站在監督的立場走到很害怕的真的有道理但我們不可以空口說白話其實這上面我可以負責任跟大家講我沒有一個人認識也沒有一個人是我的朋友我也沒有跟任何一個人有仇"},{"start":8437.577,"end":8454.346,"text":"但是當有委員講這已經淪為酬庸的工具甚至是養莊腳的工具的時候我就要非常認真的看待到底怎麼回事啊結果掉出來這個名單我稍微找一下人家的批評不是沒有道理欸"},{"start":8455.629,"end":8476.277,"text":"有的是民進黨委員服務處的處長有的是後援會的執行長有的是代表民進黨選選輸了有的是助理有的是民進黨委員的特助一片綠油油啊一片綠油油啊這個叫專業喔這個是專業還是酬庸啊我相信啊"},{"start":8482.674,"end":8499.948,"text":"每一個人啊心裡面啊通通都有一把尺啊甚至我剛在問副主委的時候啊你們不是有開審查會議啊如果開審查會議是怎麼審查的我聽了大驚失色啊審查會議只有名單連履歷表也沒有我想在看在啊全國現在所有"},{"start":8508.658,"end":8533.77,"text":"受驚皆極甚至是想要想辦法擠盡頭不要說公務人員想要擠盡國營事業擠破頭的年輕人看到我們的執政黨這樣在酬庸大家心裡會有什麼感想所以我要求第四條不好意思主席我知道你為了和諧都要送協商第四條我堅持要表決謝謝"},{"start":8539.829,"end":8559.089,"text":"先安靜一下,因為雖然後面還有兩位委員,謝榮介委員跟李柏鈺委員要發言,但是因為現在有高金素梅等人他有提一個提案,那個停止表決的提案,那我們現在先請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":8562.249,"end":8583.237,"text":"針對本次會議討論事項原住民族委員會組織法第四條建請停止討論並請表決是否有當進行公決提案人委員高金素梅羅志強、牛許廷、丁學忠、翁曉琳、林思明、謝龍介、張志倫、麥玉貞宣讀完畢請問各位就這個停止討論並表決的提案各位有無異議"},{"start":8591.42,"end":8608.306,"text":"是,是,有無異議沒有沒有,我意思是說就我們這個提案有無異議我是內政委員會來的齁,沒還沒講到捏對啊不是,中,中,中召委因為程,程序這個我要優先處理嘛"},{"start":8610.953,"end":8627.658,"text":"我們今天聯席齁,那我們現在還沒有發到言,我覺得應該講一下啦。我知道,但是因為我依照議事規則我必須優先處理這個議事討論的意義啊,比較不好意思。我的個性當然是希望和諧,但是因為我們必須依照議事規則來走。我講也沒有要吵架啊,只是講一下讓我們發表一下嘛。"},{"start":8637.199,"end":8658.664,"text":"好那因為依照議事規則齁那我們就這個要這麼蠻橫嗎不是蠻橫啦竟然連席了李委員我們不是蠻橫我是依照議事規則連席了你就讓我們講一下嘛不是你啦那因為我們依照議事所以我剛剛有跟兩位委員道歉嘛我說依照議事規則我們必須先這麼做那就停止討論的提案請問各位委員有無異議異議阿反對反對齁"},{"start":8668.39,"end":8674.015,"text":"那如果反對的話那我們就就這個停止討論部分我們是進行表決嘛好不好那我們清點"},{"start":8674.838,"end":8691.749,"text":"在場人數19人我們現在開始進行表決請問贊成提案的人請舉手"},{"start":8709.308,"end":8733.918,"text":"請放下 那反對的人請舉手反對者8人 贊成者11人 反對者8人那我們提案本次提案贊成者多數通過那我們停止討論好那我們接下來就條文的部分我們要進行表決"},{"start":8738.104,"end":8738.204,"text":"請問在場委員有異議?"},{"start":8766.186,"end":8787.276,"text":"好 那有異議的話我們就進行表決那我們用舉手表決的方式那表決前我們先請清點在場人數好 在場人數20人那我們現在開始進行表決贊成者請舉手11人"},{"start":8796.308,"end":8796.528,"text":"反對者請舉手"},{"start":8815.888,"end":8829.036,"text":"我剛剛的表決結果在場出席委員20人那贊成者11人反對者9人本案贊成者多數通過那針對第四條就照兩位提案委員的條文通過"},{"start":8835.482,"end":8850.031,"text":"本案逐條討論已經處理完畢,我們做以下宣告一本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提交院會公決本案須交黨團協商,院會討論時有吳釗偉中線出席"},{"start":8864.383,"end":8879.827,"text":"條式引述條文及部分文字跟法制用語授權主席跟議事人員處理議程所列事項處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36,15],"term":11,"id":"聯席會議-11-2-36,15-1","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：繼續併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:51 - 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2156.073,"end":2184.729,"text":"是產學產訓就業導向施行輔導轉弦職場與國立大專院校進修部共同辦理推正入學增加職場競爭力積極與優質大專院校及企業產學合作同時取得學位工作聯資及實務經驗有助職涯發展與國立企業科技大學等6所學校合作錄取112位退除役官兵展舉辦各類就業媒合活動"},{"start":2185.885,"end":2213.013,"text":"今年8月拜會臺積電協力廠商遙鴻系統科技公司請各榮福處積極媒合專業人才協助退伍、袍折跟高科技產業就業的媒合繼續發揮人力資源的價值至執訓中心依據國家產業政策企業誘人趨勢對足以官兵就業需求的面向今年已經開辦智能化與機器人等重點產業人才的課程"},{"start":2215.529,"end":2239.988,"text":"5、今年配合國家產業發展重點也開辦半導體、電動車維修、綠能永續、OpenAI應用、健康照護等熱門產業委外訓練課程,協助培養第二專長,結訓前邀請企業到班徵才,辦理就業媒合活動,並且鏈接促進穩定就業軍貼措施,提升訓後就業率,"},{"start":2241.65,"end":2245.615,"text":"為鼓勵退出役官兵在地參訓在地就業依職涯規劃選擇參加本會公告輔助的訓練班次全國超過15000個"},{"start":2254.289,"end":2264.737,"text":"強化事業機構治理經濟農場土地運用投資事業競技目標提升經營績效今年一到八月份稅前盈餘47億2407萬餘元較去年同期增加8億7014萬餘元安置率41.53%超過本會持股率33.27%"},{"start":2275.86,"end":2292.728,"text":"建置土地巡查管理資訊系統、藉階地震資訊平臺、配合國土署監測變異點、掌握土地狀態、響應自然資源永續政策、農場有機栽培面積到今年8月增加499公頃,佔委員面積比例由21.3提升到35未來工作重點規劃"},{"start":2302.274,"end":2323.791,"text":"為落實榮民圈退出官兵及區域民眾服務照顧本會建構榮總分院榮家三級照護服務網路各榮總以全人照護理念發展智慧醫療高齡醫學照護及社區醫療服務等前瞻醫學研究藉由AI與自動化等科技的智慧醫療提升醫療照顧效能"},{"start":2326.953,"end":2343.391,"text":"配合退出役官兵職業發展需求,鏈接政府部門跨域合作,推展職能專長對接民間職能,順利就業,在投資事業機會方面持續精進職能管理系統,確保能源設施安全,提升社會防衛韌性,並主動增進"},{"start":2346.354,"end":2373.068,"text":"各國退伍軍人組織情誼,拓展我實質外交,先將未來工作科科重點評述如後。第一,榮光精神讚揚大愛,宣揚榮民愛國精神,為使社會大眾深入認識榮民犧牲奉獻的精神。與今年榮民節及系列活動表揚榮民楷模及社會各界光環榮民付出的善行益舉,並邀請海外社團榮民代表反國同慶。"},{"start":2375.11,"end":2388.666,"text":"剛顯農民隊守護臺灣建設臺灣的貢獻與農民榮建基金會可證籌拍木蘭花開微電影並於今年10月舉辦首映會擴大照顧退役官兵維護袍澤合理權益"},{"start":2390.087,"end":2403.963,"text":"針對未就養且未符合政府補助資格的弱勢有倔農民將商戰衛生金由1萬提升到3萬元據中低低收入戶資格者調整為4萬元周全服務照顧"},{"start":2405.665,"end":2423.638,"text":"2、參照現行國民年金、公務人員或公立學校教職員退休、長期照顧服務、全民健康保險等原住民年齡相關門檻補助規定、克修正救養安全的安置辦法將原住民身份第一類退出役官兵救養年齡門檻下修為55歲"},{"start":2427.441,"end":2450.591,"text":"考量退除役官兵．退伍除役後．應有交加醫療照顧的需求．不因其退伍軍階不同．而補助有所差異．可修正就醫辦法．凡擬有榮民政者．至本會所屬醫療機構．就醫．其健保自行負擔費用．由本會全額補助．第三．配合政府長照政策．擴大榮業．融加能量．"},{"start":2452.012,"end":2463.541,"text":"為使區域民眾究竟取得平價優質住宿式長照機構服務,配合衛福部講述部件住宿式長照機構支援的計劃,暨高雄龍整騰五家醫院申請762床"},{"start":2466.968,"end":2486.84,"text":"為緩解失智老人照顧需求本會除章化榮家失智工程在111年已經完工其板橋等五所榮家失智床位陸續在114年到115年完工啟用總數達到1145失智床占全國老人福利機構失智床位的六成"},{"start":2488.601,"end":2515.796,"text":"3、運用智慧科技照護產品協助照護人員減輕工作負擔提供優質照顧服務規劃114年到117年分年導入智慧床墊各農家與養護區已配置生理建設儀器有100台114年依需求規劃再增購39台目標達100%4、融合科技智慧醫療完善全人健康照顧"},{"start":2517.077,"end":2524.237,"text":"為達健康台灣的目標本會致力創新智慧照顧落實醫療合一強化人家住民"},{"start":2525.697,"end":2529.479,"text":"3、為符合政府推動長照3.0精神,運用科技結合醫療與長照服務。"},{"start":2554.501,"end":2582.802,"text":"規劃建置居家醫療整合照護服務及社區整體服務照顧平臺一律進行大數據分析打造居家、社區、機構、醫療、社福一體式的服務以達在地安雅、易養合一的目標推動軍民專長轉弦結合AI運用功能規劃建立軍民轉弦對照表提供"},{"start":2583.969,"end":2606.021,"text":"職缺媒合,職人導向課程進修監獄等資訊,以縮短待業時間,使軍中專長得以對接民間職務之等。在8月以協請國防部、勞動部、經濟部及教育部召開跨部會會議,就全案達成共識,並協請臺灣AI人工智慧學校指導。"},{"start":2607.679,"end":2617.367,"text":"設計導入AI系統,預於115年底完成軍民轉弦應用平台加速銜接職業生涯,持續發揮國軍專業人力資源永續事業機構經營,優化農場服務行銷"},{"start":2627.113,"end":2629.875,"text":"農產111年到115年投入11.5億經費,辦理客房設施及油氣環境優化,並訂定災害應變計劃,建構安心旅遊環境,持續辦理投資事業在職進修,提升經營績效。"},{"start":2644.304,"end":2668.975,"text":"鼓勵各事業以前瞻思維落實ESG指標,達成有序進行的目標。貼動產學交流與國立貧窮科技大學簽訂合作意向書,開發水稻節水的技術,減少47.8用水量,注重生態保育,所屬農場與執行基金會,農業部林業及自然保育署合作,造林聯機達852公頃。"},{"start":2672.778,"end":2689.459,"text":"引進民間企業資源,加以分廠促參科證辦理招商公告,將結合大埔藍色公路油氣廊帶計畫發展,暢連政務協會周邊觀光景點,共同還原地方經濟,以至今年底完成招商作業"},{"start":2692.177,"end":2713.305,"text":"5、強化行銷策略,拓展國際觀光,今年11月ICF臺北國際旅展等活動,配合交通部觀光署參加新馬日等國際旅展,行銷農場、市際景色跟優質活動,及深化國際退府交流,有劃護防,鞏固情誼。"},{"start":2715.609,"end":2732.424,"text":"本會在華府派駐專人推動對美國退伍軍人事務聯繫、容喬服務並協調美國德州軍人公務今年9月設立了我國二戰期間海外訓練訓職將士紀念碑因紀元政治變化除現有美國及日本外"},{"start":2733.344,"end":2762.361,"text":"積極拓展英國、愛爾蘭、捷克友邦、交流、精進退伏、長照措施．予本會為落實照顧服務對象、榮民眷、退屬域官兵及區域民眾以五星守護精神出發．讓現役軍人安心、榮民放心．對社會關心、輔導會有心並持恆用心守護退屬域官兵．令成為榮民眷、退屬域官兵及區域民眾最強的後盾以上報告,敬請各位委員先進、不吝指教"},{"start":2763.081,"end":2779.135,"text":"報告完畢 恭喜您知道好 我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘"},{"start":2781.961,"end":2793.748,"text":"10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情況情形進行處理現在請羅美琳委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請嚴主委請嚴主委"},{"start":2817.875,"end":2832.188,"text":"主委好,就如剛剛主委在這個報告所提到的,我們全台有16所的榮民之家,然後我們有結合了4所的這個榮總跟12所榮總分院的醫療資源的發展這個"},{"start":2835.131,"end":2835.451,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":2851.169,"end":2876.286,"text":"入住來擴大資源的共享剛剛主委也有提到為了擴大容院跟容家照顧的能量所以目前我們在板橋巴等5所的容家正在增建失智床位再來在鳳林、玉里、灣橋還有屏東的4所容總分院也都增建住宿室長照機構的床位"},{"start":2879.208,"end":2893.824,"text":"對於退府會持續來擴大容院跟容家的照顧量本席是予以肯定可是當然我們要維持照顧的量一定要有充足的"},{"start":2894.204,"end":2895.845,"text":"實際辦理業務人數占整體持有人數的比例"},{"start":2917.771,"end":2920.192,"text":"對於這個不到60%的實際辦理業務人數來講的話,我們會不會覺得說在人力方面會不足呢?"},{"start":2944.938,"end":2953.925,"text":"謝謝委員指導,我們目前16所容家8782床,現在目前的佔床率是6987,就是將近有80,將近有8成。那剛剛委員現在公布的這個是實際辦理業務人數占……"},{"start":2961.972,"end":2962.873,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":2982.486,"end":2986.37,"text":"另外還有140名社工,這些目前來檢討設置的標準是符合高過老人福利機構設立的標準"},{"start":2994.887,"end":3019.394,"text":"所以說您是覺得說這個都是符合這個標準因為我們在實際辦理業務的這個人的內容就是大家包含的行政、醫事、藥事、護理跟社工人員所以我們是覺得說低於這60%的這些人員的配額其實它是符合我們目前所有的標準"},{"start":3020.194,"end":3037.255,"text":"主委說的是這樣子嗎?是,我們這邊的資料是護理人員,護理師的人力的一個配置,加上我們的社工人員有140個人。這個兩個數字加起來,現在目前都是符合老人機構的。所以目前並沒有人力不足的問題是不是?"},{"start":3038.896,"end":3061.647,"text":"人力都沒有問題我看到像板橋台北他們都有都有到70%甚至以上像這個八個榮家有將近80%所以我現在看到的就這幾家都是第一60%在這個比例上來講的話跟其他的榮家比的話他是有一些落差的"},{"start":3062.367,"end":3083.959,"text":"那如果像70%、80%的這些榮家的這個實際辦理業務人數他們這樣子的配置是怎樣的一個配置呢?他們是over了嗎?如果說我們這樣子的話都是屬於比較充足的人力的話那其他高達80%的人力配置是怎樣的人力配置呢?可以說明一下這當中的落差嗎?是,我請我們就養處處長跟您做一個詳細的說明"},{"start":3086.513,"end":3096.104,"text":"委員好我是救援養護署署長周星國那這個資料是去年我們評鑑的資料那我委請外面的評鑑委員依照老服機構的評鑑標準來評鑑那這個事務人力從去年開始那評鑑委員認為說事務人力是有缺盡快來補食但是在各農家運作上面他整體來看"},{"start":3108.397,"end":3117.849,"text":"運作都是沒有問題的他只是提醒我們補食能力那這段時間有關事務能力我們盡快來補食相關的能力營運這個農家運作的需求"},{"start":3119.046,"end":3125.731,"text":"目前為止如果說這些60%以下的這個農家那剛剛主委的意思是說實際上沒有人力不足的這個問題那如果這樣子講的話剛剛處長是您剛才講的這樣子的話跟主委講的可能會有一點點的出入因為我們的照護人力是沒有問題因為農家有照護你們的照護人力是屬於這個採這個外包的是不是委外的方式對 我們是勞務委外"},{"start":3145.043,"end":3146.244,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3176.841,"end":3185.695,"text":"提到戰床率的部分雖然是說我們後來還是有開放一些床位讓一般的民眾來使用"},{"start":3190,"end":3204.587,"text":"在去年跟前年同期7月份到7月為止我們有看到整體的床位我記得在上個會期我們退府會有討論過這個占床率的問題當然我現在看到這個數據"},{"start":3211.65,"end":3211.71,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3226.527,"end":3226.827,"text":"張華融家 張華融家"},{"start":3251.658,"end":3258.684,"text":"這個公費的部分還有61床然後自費還有16床可是我們看到說開放給一般民眾其實還有後住的人數有兩個人在等待那像這個的話能不能再因為它是在同一個榮民之家這可以做調整嘛看起來像我們一般民眾我們開放給民眾的是53床那目前入住也是53床表示它是滿床的狀態還有兩個人在等"},{"start":3277.918,"end":3280.483,"text":"可是我們看到就是給農民的公費自費也好可是他目前為止他是有床位的這可以在院內裡面做調整嗎?"},{"start":3289.158,"end":3318.325,"text":"好像專化榮家他就有這個狀況報告主委我跟您報告一下我們每個禮拜都會檢討這個床位就您講的如果說榮民沒有後住的狀況之下一般民眾有後住那我們會把這個床位轉給一般民眾來那你可能說有些兩個床位那你看那個數據也許他甚至在辦手續中但是這個床位的這個調整我們每週都會在做所以還是會做調整就對了對希望這個資源能夠共享OK好"},{"start":3319.565,"end":3338.315,"text":"對,像彰化榮家,您說因為他是兩個後駐人數,也許這個他就會調整到其他的這個床位去可是我看到這個巴德榮家,我們來看看巴德他像他一般安養有分公費跟自費的部分而目前後駐的人數呢"},{"start":3338.935,"end":3354.393,"text":"像這個公費的部分有31人自費的部分有21人一般民眾更是高達180人看起來床位非常不足那我們再來看看他這個夫妻安養的部分也是有分公費跟自費"},{"start":3355.054,"end":3375.569,"text":"可是像夫妻安養的部分我們公費有18床然後自費有120床那目前他可申請的床數這兩個夫妻安養不管公費跟自費加起來其實有69床是可以是空床的部分那這部分他們如何去做調整這沒有辦法去做調整"},{"start":3377.31,"end":3378.491,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":3402.214,"end":3421.69,"text":"一般安養的話是否一般安養可以入住一般安養都是單人房嗎全部都是單人房嗎他的空間比較大如果今天一個人住到夫妻房裡面他空間是比較大那其他住單人房的會比較之下為什麼你可以住夫妻房"},{"start":3422.33,"end":3423.171,"text":"我看到的數據是這樣同一個像巴德榮家"},{"start":3449.752,"end":3474.629,"text":"沒床的就沒床,空床就空在那裡,我想這個的部分是沒有辦法做調整。對,我們在做聯合調整,我們實際上從451床已經增加到1635床,就一般的民眾,已經不斷的滾動式的調整。那會按照委員的指導,我們會請各農家評估狀況,如果是可以適當做一些調節就調節,然後地區區域的也可以做一些調整。"},{"start":3475.919,"end":3476.94,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3508.673,"end":3532.532,"text":"我們有請嚴主委請嚴主委主委好我們這麼多年的同事我們不能講我們是在同溫層可是我們是在一個頻譜之內看盡了所有榮家現役退役"},{"start":3533.966,"end":3561.383,"text":"過去我們整個退輔會對榮家照顧所做的服務所以您剛才的那個深入報導我個人感受很深因為不管怎麼講我們的人力資源還是相當有限如何能夠最多做出最大的效益這是我們要支持共同努力我剛剛看了一下我的皮夾子我才發現榮民證我每天戴在身上"},{"start":3562.54,"end":3586.861,"text":"可是我並沒有想用我個人的身份去換取榮家對我的一點資源而是要把這個量能擴散到其他的服務上去所以我剛才聽到了這些報告以後我下面做的只是建言我們都是軍人出身我們都研究戰略所以我們都了解我們如何設定目標"},{"start":3588.39,"end":3607.44,"text":"我們運用什麼方法採用什麼手段目前政府強調的是行動創新這個action innovation實際上這個AI本身裡面就結合了未來的人工智慧在您後面的報告裡面引述出來了所以我們的目的就是"},{"start":3608.513,"end":3611.056,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3628.875,"end":3650.655,"text":"我們採用的手段要善用各地的榮民服務處作為信息收集這裏面包括了AI的運用就像剛才前面委員提到的有關床位的調節管理系統那是內部運用的但是因為它是一個動態的並不是每天都可以調節床位的所以資源整合"},{"start":3651.576,"end":3651.896,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3672.159,"end":3673.44,"text":"一流需求的前提下"},{"start":3687.116,"end":3712.343,"text":"正確、善用的綠色通道的規則確保醫療流程的效率與服務品質減輕病患等待期間焦慮的心情與病痛我們在民間常常講一些意外狀況如果有三長兩短那是一個民間的講法但是我們現在反映到什麼呢就是掛號排隊的時間長"},{"start":3714.944,"end":3743.453,"text":"等候看病的時間長領藥檢查的時間長可是真正因為受選於原力之源醫療體系醫師所以看病問診的時間短解釋病情的時間短我們有些老農民實際上以我們專業醫生論述的講法他的專業背景聽不懂這種疫情的狀況症候的狀況所以我們慢慢來調整了變成了三短兩長"},{"start":3745.433,"end":3772.151,"text":"讓前面的服務時間等候縮短後面產生效益讓他安心聽懂的這個時間加長那健全醫療體系與照顧的環境我們要在法律框架下進行大數據的整合管理持續數據資料庫同時針對醫療體系跟人員要提供AI的風險控管跟AI的教育因為越用大的資料庫這個產生資料外洩的機率會越高"},{"start":3775.634,"end":3802.394,"text":"甚至我們比方講平戰轉合我們的軍醫院的這個比方講我們軍人的這個健檢降檢或者是體檢資料跟民間醫院能不能互通這都要法律來律定並不是想像一上網就可以通有些在這個醫院的病歷資料並未必能夠暫時因為受傷到另外一個院可以取得像這個東西是我們要大家共同努力那麼這個退輔會在"},{"start":3804.386,"end":3822.801,"text":"支持國軍站立維持照顧榮民、榮家以及廣闊到民間的共同的照育扮演了一個很重要的角色那麼我們也相信榮民的需要退府會完全了解而且會努力做到這是以上我個人對主委的一些建言跟期許謝謝"},{"start":3825.018,"end":3839.398,"text":"市委委員的指導原免率我想委員的第一個目標非常明確我想我們現在退伍過去朝向這個目標全力以赴的做就人民在哪裡服務到哪裡委員指導這裡面的建議我們現在不斷的在求"},{"start":3840.56,"end":3840.961,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3857.301,"end":3870.778,"text":"就是剛剛陳委員指導的怎麼樣去降低減輕總統本身自己的一個負荷把這個醫療資源都能夠擴大其實在服務方面綠色通道我們榮業尤其是針對高齡的榮民"},{"start":3872.5,"end":3872.76,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3894.953,"end":3895.854,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3924.055,"end":3933.359,"text":"繼續努力來救謝謝委員的指導謝謝嚴主委以及退服會同仁今天的與會我們大家一起共同努力謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳永康委員主委請回接下來我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":3957.604,"end":3983.216,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請委員主委,謝謝請委員主委政委好好,主委好,這個退伍會這個今年來的比較多次一點那所以,但是所以我們的這個通常來講呢,上個會期我們問的比較多都是跟這一個退降有關的那我今天最主要還是問這個,但是是問就業輔導然後前面會問一些醫療人力的問題"},{"start":3986.118,"end":4009.83,"text":"目前整體的醫療體系從臺北榮民總醫院到中榮到高雄到屏東因為我現在在花蓮的時間比較多臺北榮民總醫院有玉里分院到鳳嶺鳳嶺現在的狀況可能我等一下會想多一些跟玉里分院有關的事情但在這個之前我想問一下就是因為之前我們有看到這個地區的醫院"},{"start":4013.032,"end":4037.853,"text":"那我們的衛福部有去公佈一個比較新的這個護病筆那它這邊這個白班1比10小業1比13大業1比15那我知道以榮民的醫院現在來講它其實是有符合的但問題是就是我也看到就是大部分的人對於這個護病筆這個新上路的這一個還是有很多意見那我最想要問的就是說這一個地區的醫院"},{"start":4038.453,"end":4063.645,"text":"因為這個最後一段這邊有寫到就是目前衛福部依照不同的層級發放的這個夜班的獎勵是有不同的那反而地區的醫院的獎勵是比較低的但護病比卻比較高所以導致這個護理人員流動到這一個護病比比較低獎勵性比較高的這個醫學中心那這個因為畢竟尤其在花蓮有很多的這種地區型的醫院那我知道這當然跟衛福部的政策有關係"},{"start":4064.665,"end":4089.608,"text":"但因為畢竟以退輔會的角度來講這個榮民總醫院它本身是有預算的然後它也有一定程度的盈利所以不知道有沒有可能去補足當然我們還會再去跟衛福部溝通說這個應不應該更改但目前在這個制度之下有沒有辦法去補足這一塊讓這個地區醫院的獎勵可以比較高一點然後讓這個護病比可以稍微做一些改變這樣子"},{"start":4090.854,"end":4107.663,"text":"各位委員報告,我們退伍會所屬各級的容院整體的醫師人力是符合醫療機構設置標準和醫院評鑑的基準各級容院在8月份正值醫師的空缺率平均在0.41"},{"start":4109.384,"end":4121.922,"text":"零點十一這個也是符合行政院人事總署第一四趴的一個規定就整個大的一個一個檢測先跟委員就報告那委員所關心的有關發動地區預理分院之外我請我們預理分院院長詳細的跟委員再做說明"},{"start":4126.201,"end":4151.211,"text":"委員好 月理分院分院長報告有關於委員剛剛提到護理的這個護病比確實玉里地區是完全符合我們三家院目前都符合這個地區醫院的低於15%的這個比例那目前剛剛委員提到的就是有關於津貼的問題那確實在這個醫院裡面不同的這個病房可能他會受到一些相關的限制那但是目前"},{"start":4151.971,"end":4170.538,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":4170.758,"end":4187.134,"text":"報告省委員委員總陳維銘那花東的問題我們是都完全感同身受因為現在我們國人平均壽命臺東是倒數第一名花蓮倒數第三名那比臺北差了臺東差了7點多歲花蓮將近6歲"},{"start":4190.177,"end":4206.484,"text":"那這個是我們所有醫療體系都有責任來幫助這件事情不過受了0403的地震0725的楷米颱風很多同仁要到花蓮台東支援就家長反對打退堂鼓所以我們在小禮大義鼓勵這些人不惜就是用升遷"},{"start":4207.685,"end":4229.225,"text":"保證你可以回來當組織醫師鼓勵他們去那加上跟臺東馬歇醫院區域聯防跟門諾醫院一個在南一個在北現在達成協議區域聯防讓如果交通有問題的時候可以及時幫我們支援那我大膽的提出一個事情向政府提出來是一個東寶生跟花寶生的事情"},{"start":4230.146,"end":4236.237,"text":"因為我們的金寶生金門現在做得不錯那如果有東寶生因為現在天災不斷東寶生花寶生寶藏"},{"start":4238.325,"end":4264.441,"text":"更多的公費生到花園去然後花蓮的典值臺東的典值健保署給他保障我相信會有更多優秀的醫事人員願意到花東去我退休我都願意去那這個是一個大家共同來努力來幫助我們的花東我在健康臺灣委員會也向總統提出來我們要盡量努力起來幫助我們花東的居民讓我們的平均壽命可以拉上來"},{"start":4265.562,"end":4291.174,"text":"臺北榮總也會全力給我們華東三院支援給他們人力那我們會再不責損因為有時候榮總是公務體系我剛說強迫你到花蓮去我不幹了我要離職了因為你沒有強迫的力量只能小雨大雨鼓勵用聲簽讓他們磨練當誘因所以現在送了一個很優秀的陳一群這個知性天才去接副院長他很快就會把他帶起來"},{"start":4292.054,"end":4319.929,"text":"現在臺東副院長也會找一個很優秀的人過去我們希望用好的人力去幫助他們向聲明人報告我們會努力好 謝謝這個東寶花寶相關的如果說能夠推動的話對我們來講當然會是一個很大的注意那當然就是說這個我後面才會問到一些跟醫生有關但因為剛剛主委也有提到醫生的部分就是說當然剛剛有提到這個健保點子的問題就是說在育理當地就是說它有一些這個也是跟獎金有關"},{"start":4320.549,"end":4341.341,"text":"那在獎金的發放因為現在說真的他的人事費我們調資料看起來還是稍微比較降低的服務費是越來越高但服務費高其實也不是什麼問題但重點就是那個獎金的部分所以我有看到不管是精神科醫師內外科醫師真的是有出走的問題所以呢就像剛剛這一個院長提到如果說這個出走的問題能夠解決的話會真的很重要"},{"start":4341.761,"end":4358.531,"text":"不然的話我看到他們現在有時候會去跟門諾調醫生有時候要跟這個衛生局調醫生那這真的會造成當地的這個醫療資源的短缺啦好 謝謝那這個呢再來就是因為我稍微看了一下預算就是說當然除了我說過這個榮業有賺錢這個當然是可以去協助獎金啦"},{"start":4361.753,"end":4377.52,"text":"我看到這個個容院在當時這個在預算的裡面其實好像有提到說能夠增聘醫護人力的一個規劃所以這部分的規劃是否也能夠稍微說明一下雖然現在預算被擋了所以有點尷尬但是就是目前在這個預算的狀況之下本來的計畫是什麼"},{"start":4382.532,"end":4406.163,"text":"報告委員我是就醫處處長劉俊正那跟委員報告目前的這個護病比的部分我們在今年8月份去做一個全面的檢視我們是符合標準的那比較缺乏的是大小業的部分那我想護理的人力應該是全國的問題那我們的輔導會也不斷的在想辦法去解決人力的一個人力荒所以目前我們已經奉行政院合定在114年明年開始的連續3年我們整個輔導會體系會擴編506人就是整個醫護的團隊"},{"start":4411.966,"end":4440.415,"text":"那護理師的部分會有376人來彌補各個醫院的這個職缺所以到時候我們的這個公職護理師的比例應該可以到4成6以上這部分我想委員的關切我們非常注意到謝謝目前跟委員報告我們採取的一些措施就提高起薪然後積極跟各大戰略校招募護理人才護理人力然後也爭取護理公職員額鼓勵他們退休之後能夠回來能夠回來採取這些措施"},{"start":4441.115,"end":4464.446,"text":"然後另外我們也提供委員所關心的留院獎金然後調升夜班費這些配合軍方要的調薪能夠醫病來做然後增加他們的工作意願相關一些配套措施各種院都在做好 謝謝所以我想重整兩個層次第一個當然就是預算本身的編列跟這個時程剛剛已經有他本來就在那我們當然盡力希望是能夠這個預算能夠通過因為現在預算被卡在那邊"},{"start":4465.026,"end":4467.227,"text":"實踐的關係我再稍微問一個小小的跟那個職業職壓發展有關的其實我在這一個那個報告裡面有看到這個"},{"start":4486.755,"end":4488.537,"text":"這次的軍民專長的衔接系統是新開發的系統"},{"start":4514.758,"end":4531.013,"text":"我個人在行政院辦的高階文官獎金裡面有一個AI的智慧學校來上課那我覺得有很多地方可以請他們做指導所以我們這個系統我就指導我們的事業處將來把這個系統要導入AI"},{"start":4533.155,"end":4534.918,"text":"國防委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4548.399,"end":4548.539,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4566.169,"end":4568.251,"text":"我個人是覺得這個對退服會是非常重要的一個業務"},{"start":4584.85,"end":4585.29,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員主委請回"},{"start":4615.683,"end":4618.445,"text":"接下來我們請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席我們有請嚴主委請嚴主委"},{"start":4641.792,"end":4660.76,"text":"主委好,主委有沒有趁這個開議之前到這個國內去進行一些國內旅遊,尤其是我們知道退伏會峽下有一些我們的觀光農場啊,還有就是一些旅館。就之前去過農場,我們高三的農場去過。"},{"start":4662.371,"end":4689.298,"text":"我不知道主委有沒有聽過現在這個民間有一個很有趣的這個笑話就是說如果有一間公司啊他舉辦國內旅遊大家會說哇那你去年業績很好賺大錢啊這個賠錢的或賺的少的才會到國外旅遊所以國內旅遊其實現在的房價其實一般消費者都會認為說挺貴的那我們知道在我們這個退服會峽下有一些幾個農場機構甚至於呢都還有一些旅館的經營我們有幾個農場機構"},{"start":4691.679,"end":4716.274,"text":"三高山是三個大農場,那底下平地有兩個,昌化跟台東。好,那麼這幾個這個所謂的退府會峽下的這個所謂農場機構當中,那麼又有幾間在經營這個合法的,應該是說在幾間在經營這些我們的旅館跟旅宿?我們三高山有三座,三高山有三座。對,然後平地呢?平地你知道嗎?"},{"start":4720.375,"end":4738.838,"text":"平地農場有4個地方在經營旅宿業。好,其實我稍微調查跟了解了一下當然山高山的這幾個包括武陵農場、福壽山親近非常夯。那麼房價的部分當然也就合理的會反映這個需求。但是如果是平地的彰化農場跟台東農場的話"},{"start":4741.479,"end":4766.24,"text":"那他們的價格相對的非常合理喔我先唸出來一下就是像高雄同學農場的話雙人房只要四千二那四人房六千那麼如果是池上啊或是東和或是豐壽會館的話雙人房有的甚至只要一千二四人房兩千八所以這些價格都是非常的合理跟實惠可是本席發現的問題是"},{"start":4767.961,"end":4772.088,"text":"有的有合法的旅館登記但是有的好像沒有是這樣嗎?"},{"start":4773.771,"end":4802.223,"text":"報告委員我們的觀光條例實行以後因為山高山農場他從很早以前都經營旅宿業所以他很早就取得旅館的登記了但是因為我們觀光條例通過以後在明年的1月份以前沒有取得的話將我們平地農場以務農為主所以說他明年1月開始我們就不能經營這個旅宿業了我們現在採取的措施就是委外經營方式"},{"start":4803.003,"end":4821.176,"text":"現在高雄農場在112年之後已經委外經營了那池上的會館在今年的4月也委外經營了那東河的會館我們預備在今年年底以前委外經營那花蓮的壽豐農場因為現在做地木的變更變更完以後我們也會委外經營"},{"start":4823.177,"end":4835.107,"text":"我想管理的事業單位已經都非常清楚了沒錯就是104年之後因為我們的觀光條例有進行了修正之後有10年的寬限期其實本席要問主委的就是我開場白就先說了其實現在我們國內的這些旅宿業的房價當然高檔的甚至於五星級的要上萬沒錯但是其實退府會狹下所的這些農場機構的旅館其實是可以提供相對合理的價格"},{"start":4852.5,"end":4869.108,"text":"他不只是提供給我們退出役官兵們其實有一個休閒旅遊的好地方之外其實國人也會需要但是為什麼拖到最後一刻你看喔114年的1月21號如果沒有辦妥相關的旅館的登記之後就不能繼續營業了那就像剛剛所講的"},{"start":4872.009,"end":4884.094,"text":"既然早就10年前就知道為什麼不能好好的動起來當然中間一經過了這個疫情期間的COVID當然相對的會很慘淡但是主委你有沒有覺得其實這一塊是可以好好動起來的"},{"start":4887.029,"end":4895.333,"text":"目前我們都已經辦理招商在作業當中好在作業當中那是不是就是要拖到最後一刻就像剛剛講的本席也去查了那麼照顧彰化的這個高雄同學農場112年1月就委外廠商經營囉那池上會館是113年3月委託民間來經營那麼河東農場跟壽豐農場的進度只剩下最後兩個月喔那這個時間跟騎乘上可以來得及嗎"},{"start":4915.043,"end":4940.738,"text":"東河農場的部分我們應該來得及,因為最主要是之前颱風的影響,它受到非常非常嚴重的損壞,連外道路也不通,那這個度去我們會加速來進行,請委員放心。好,但是呢,這個預算會期回到預算,主委我要講,114年度的預算書當中有提到,臺東農場的觀光收入變成是只剩下15000元,比上個年度的預算700萬要減少了698萬。"},{"start":4944.488,"end":4974.108,"text":"那像這樣子是因為委外經營之後所預算書的呈現嗎還是說反正這些都是不欠錢的單位因為我必須要強調喔真的就像我們剛剛前面看到的第一張在高山地區比較有競爭力尤其是在那些風光明媚的地方每年到了賞花祭節可以說是供不應求但是平地的地區是不是就是因為競爭力相對比較薄弱對於政府會來講收入也比較少就可以不用去管它或是不經營它其實這是本席很在乎的"},{"start":4975.989,"end":4999.525,"text":"報委員我們委外經營以後狀況會好很多因為平地農場包含彰化農場跟台東農場他最主要的事業目的其實就是我們的農業經營並不是這個旅館的規劃所以這方面他們是比較弱的這個是我們必須要承認而且從近三年來其實他都是虧本在經營的"},{"start":5000.525,"end":5028.189,"text":"對沒錯確實是在虧本經營但是為什麼我沒有放棄是因為就是我們國民有需求所以說我們才忍痛高雄農場我以高雄農場為例它一年要虧損五百萬但是為什麼我們會繼續經營下去這最主要是有需求我們才經營下去旁邊有一滇緬村就是那個姓國村這間我們要還要負責照顧他們最主要原因是在這個地方"},{"start":5028.789,"end":5055.804,"text":"本席就是特別把這個問題也就質詢把它提出來的那確實就如同我們今天詢答上所講的民眾是有他的需求但是缺乏的會不會是一些亮點的宣傳又或者是說特色的規劃那我們希望在這個接下來如果能夠把進度掌握然後在這個有委外經營底下也能夠幫這個10年前就已經知道了現在如果沒有取得這個旅館相關的登記其實是無法合法經營的"},{"start":5057.025,"end":5081.395,"text":"好另外一個當然我們就要回到這個關於人力的問題其實我們各個榮處我非常的重要因為他攸關著我們120萬我們的這個退休的這個退役的這些官兵們跟榮眷們之間那在這個120萬人處的不論是他們就養就業就學等等其實人力第一線到底足不足夠因為時間有限我直接就講了有8個"},{"start":5082.535,"end":5102.165,"text":"容處缺額是高於10%當我們第一線人力有缺口的時候對比這是113年而且昨天最新統計的資料對113年對比112年還有8個地方包括臺北市新北市基隆市花蓮縣臺東縣苗栗縣彰化縣跟雲林縣"},{"start":5106.747,"end":5127.301,"text":"面對這種第一線現在有高於10%的人力缺口,我們要如何想辦法來補足呢?報告委員,我們現在整個各容圖處是507,缺是缺了58個,但是58個裡面也有職務代理人有29個,大概缺了一半,還有29個,但是目前我們正在辦理"},{"start":5128.742,"end":5144.265,"text":"在增補在補充當中另外在這個階段我們是用社工我們有這個社工隊來支援來讓他們節省一些人力榮勳志工來幫忙一些仿事的一些工作服務的工作"},{"start":5144.625,"end":5170.754,"text":"好其實就是用一種所謂志工來做替代那不然就可能好但另外一種方式可能就是什麼就是用所謂加班來處理本席特別幫這個我們各個榮處的加班天數來做一個統計這個會發現最高的南投會高達31.6天最低的台北市也有2.1天相差的倍數是15倍"},{"start":5172.735,"end":5189.089,"text":"當然有些人認為說我賺點加班費挺好的但是更多的時候他可能產生的這種過勞會降低第一線人力的包括就養就業提供諮詢的一個品質然後我們看到除了南投線"},{"start":5189.79,"end":5205.757,"text":"宜蘭、嘉義、臺東、基隆、花蓮加班的天數也都高於其他的地區所以主委有注意到這樣的狀況嗎那顯然的相對的他就影響到了這些縣市第一線人力的調度之外我相信服務品質也會變差"},{"start":5206.877,"end":5218.647,"text":"那可以感受得到是不是臺北市就相對的這個2.1的加班天數是比較合乎大家常理的接受那就像剛剛前一位沈博洋委員提到的可能是醫療機構那偏鄉是不是出現了大家比較不願意服務又或者是說其實南投地處在我們的"},{"start":5228.953,"end":5253.855,"text":"臺灣最中心才是真的我們臺灣的內地啊南投阿為什麼會發生31.6天原因是什麼委員我請輔導處處長跟您做報告委員我向您報告我是輔導處處長是最主要是因為南投的編制人數只有19人是那臺北市有54人相同的加班的時數放大出去之後臺北市的比率就很低"},{"start":5254.155,"end":5255.396,"text":"在我們工作品質不降低的狀況下,我們絕對不會讓我們同仁過老。謝謝委員"},{"start":5269.807,"end":5285.182,"text":"好,因為時間有限我先講一個結論那就是臺北市是不是因為要服務的榮民、榮眷比較多所以員額比較高但是相對的如果說南投你現在看到有這樣的加班天數那就表示過去給的員額現在明顯的已經無法符合現行榮眷、榮民的人數那這個在於所謂的"},{"start":5293.71,"end":5294.85,"text":"我們在做一個檢討是 謝委員"},{"start":5321.616,"end":5330.143,"text":"好,謝謝林楚瑩委員,諸位請回接下來我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席,麻煩請主委請言主委"},{"start":5349.537,"end":5368.863,"text":"各位好,因為在上個會期我們有提到幾個跟退役軍人的福利措施上面可能有一些建議或者決議,那想要了解一下現在目前推動的情形"},{"start":5369.983,"end":5386.951,"text":"大概有兩項比較大的就是有職業榮民在就醫醫療優惠的部分看今天的報告裡面他有說明現在修正國軍退除役官兵就醫辦法"},{"start":5389.454,"end":5411.671,"text":"凡臨有榮民政者到本會所屬醫療機構就醫其健保自行負擔費用由退府會全額補助現在呈報行政院核定後施行我想要在這裡請教主委就是說我們這個優惠目前已經公告了嘛是不是公告公告過了開過審議會了那什麼時候會送立院核備"},{"start":5415.094,"end":5439.545,"text":"現在移送到行政院,那相關的行政院的協調工作現在正在做,行政院的各處事有任何的一些疑議,或者需要我們再補充資料的,我們都目前正在密切的聯繫當中,目前進度都正常。有掌握那個期程嗎?大概評估什麼時候可以達到我們送立院核備的這樣一個期程?"},{"start":5441.802,"end":5463.008,"text":"這個可能要看行政院目前那邊我們的資料的回覆的一個情形才能夠看什麼時候可以核定目前進入到正常因為所謂的正常就是我們有設定騎乘所以它才叫正常但我們希望越快越好那如果說在我們正常的騎乘之下大概會是什麼時候"},{"start":5464.108,"end":5470.493,"text":"行政院現在還有嗎?現在還有陳副的意見嗎?現在目前還是有,當然我們把陳副的意見寫完再回覆給他們如果說現在有什麼樣的進度,請隨時給我們像現在的一個進度的狀況好不好?因為我們希望他就是越快越好啦"},{"start":5486.144,"end":5489.165,"text":"那另外針對有職榮民醫療優惠的部分其實他到目前為止他只限定於退府會所屬醫療機構那跟之前主委就我們在上一次之前在馮主委的時候其實他有承諾會依照我們包括"},{"start":5508.593,"end":5508.813,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":5529.119,"end":5534.402,"text":"我們希望可以做到最好那你在這裡還有這樣的差異是覺得我們的軍人在服役期間或者他的那個還是比不上我們剛剛提到的這些像警校啊空警啊海巡人員嗎就這個部分要怎麼樣去積極的爭取那所有的健保部分因為包括"},{"start":5554.434,"end":5578.044,"text":"不是只有在我們退服體系的這樣子的還有軍醫院而是包括衛福部甚至他們在其他的臺大醫院雲林分院連江縣的醫院其實都有這些健保部分負擔費用由政府全力補助的福利主委這個公平的待遇你可以積極的在替我們所有的同袍爭取嗎"},{"start":5579.064,"end":5601.342,"text":"謝謝委員關心,照顧我們的榮民是我們基本的職責,我們一定要來積極來爭取,那這個工作有關於有職的榮民退下去之後,原來是因為退伍的軍階按照軍階的比例要付費,那我們現在報告行政院的案子就是要把這部分"},{"start":5602.823,"end":5608.546,"text":"主委他其實他最重要的一點是因為過去因為像錦霄海巡跟空情人遠慶他們沒有這部分的優惠他在108年行政院才通過這樣子的一個補助的方案所以我們也希望"},{"start":5626.496,"end":5626.676,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":5656.976,"end":5677.763,"text":"所提出來的希望可以幫軍人也提也提到這樣子的一個福利照顧的一個部分這個部分也要持續來爭取好謝謝那另外就是針對恢復退除役上校階以上官兵他子女教育補助費的一個部分因為"},{"start":5680.461,"end":5702.638,"text":"本委員會在4月間由王昭偉提案不分黨派委員其實都同時聯署臨時提案建請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會有關上校階以上領奉人員子女教育補助費的事情因積極研議並爭取以促進退伍跑者的權益那在上個會期6月13號"},{"start":5706.241,"end":5730.696,"text":"歐小林委員：也有提案有18個人共同聯署國軍退除役官兵輔導條例徵定第27條之2條文草案當時的決定雖然是保留可是要另外擇期繼續審查主要是要讓退府會有時間去跟行政院做一個溝通因為這個案子它增加的預算是只有5000萬"},{"start":5732.037,"end":5737.082,"text":"可是他對於在整個我們在所有的退除役不管你的階級是什麼可是你突然把上校拿掉其實這個會造成很不公平的一個感覺所以這一次退補會的業務報告上面也沒有納入我想請教一下那現在的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":5755.46,"end":5780.694,"text":"上個會期最後委員會的決議就希望我們盡量再去爭取再去溝通協調我們這一段時間一直跟行政人種保持聯繫他們也希望我們提供上下的集聚退伍人員的集聚相關的一些人數人員資料相關的資料我們都提供給人種這段時間一直保持聯繫"},{"start":5781.855,"end":5782.875,"text":"媒體宣傳費用"},{"start":5808.12,"end":5808.2,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":5830.117,"end":5831.8,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5845.973,"end":5852.717,"text":"那接下來如果說有什麼樣的進度也慢慢報告我們委員會那另外還要再特別提到的就是退輔會它成立的目的它主要是照顧農民如果有很多的福利措施比如說像長照、施治有很多像這樣子其實它的全責單位應該是衛福部所以我們還是希望"},{"start":5873.49,"end":5893.085,"text":"我們退府會應該要堅守很清楚的知道我們設立的一個主要的目的我們要照顧的是榮民我們像現在我們看到失智老人的照顧我們現在在計劃當中有無所容加設立失智園區我們失智床增加了502床總床位將達到1145"},{"start":5899.25,"end":5920.988,"text":"這個佔全國老人福利機構施治老人床位6成以上就是由我們退府會其實會提供6成以上施治老人照顧的這樣子的床位那在相關的這個未來的照護人力會增加護理人員56人還有照服員441人人力需求經費會達到2億7千多萬我特別要提出來是"},{"start":5925.692,"end":5940.485,"text":"也有委員希望你們滾動式的調整為什麼說我們成立的目的是照顧農民因為你會入住農家有些一住可能5年10年甚至20年都有可能你現在看出來他可能還有空床"},{"start":5941.326,"end":5944.929,"text":"可是當他們需要的時候因為你現在榮民不是以前的那些老伯伯因為他們很多單身或者說他們就是需要這樣的照顧可是未來我們的社會趨勢可能像失智或者必須有接受長照這樣照顧的人數也會增加所以我們為什麼要有一定比例的一個床位的配比而不是你現在看到說他有空位"},{"start":5967.364,"end":5989.912,"text":"你就讓所有的人都可以進來那未來如果有榮民要住的時候你可以把現在的一般民眾把他趕出去嗎這個部分我們希望退府會還是要堅持我們現在我們設立的一個主要的目的剛剛我們還有提到的就是他人力的部分我們現在剛剛看到我們有一千多名的一些照護需求"},{"start":5990.752,"end":5992.213,"text":"我們研究現在又怎麼樣自顧"},{"start":6007.585,"end":6029.78,"text":"這個部分因為既然你已經有這麼多的床位應該要怎麼樣做一個更好更妥適的一個規劃安排我想這個可能還是要去床位跟委員報告我們會控制一定的比例現在目前最多的比例一般民主區域是18%那其他大部分大概有八成以上還是照顧我們的人民主民都有控制一些存料"},{"start":6030.06,"end":6030.46,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6050.68,"end":6052.842,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員也請副會給馬文君委員所需要的進度報告"},{"start":6077.93,"end":6106.733,"text":"那下一位請徐曉欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席那我們請嚴德發主委請嚴主委徐委員好主委好最近我國國防部因為軍售案件有一些新聞不知道你有沒有看到"},{"start":6109.259,"end":6122.753,"text":"就最近的一些包含是我們直接講就是雖然您已經卸任了但是在您在任期間有評估過過去的新聞就關於換相2000的部分那時候在2019年9月23號的時候"},{"start":6127.017,"end":6145.966,"text":"那我們就有看到您說跟法國的這個公司討論過這個性能的提升計劃那當時呢軍方沒有說要退出是要評估換項的性能提升所以呢當時也有些人在講說服役27年5個非官訓職法國原廠都退出的換項2000為什麼國軍還在飛"},{"start":6154.151,"end":6174.206,"text":"今年9月又有一位飛官在彈跳的時候逃生了我們也非常慶幸他的生命是有獲得保障的後來我們就在新聞上又看到說沒想到當時在2019年的時候說延受8年的計劃"},{"start":6175.907,"end":6201.492,"text":"現在不只要延壽8年在雙座機的部分要延壽到20年過去您的專業來說不知道您會有什麼樣的一個評價在我當國防部長那個時期的確有評估過幻象兩圈它是否要退出是有評估過但是因為幻象它主要的任務是北部的攻防"},{"start":6202.272,"end":6202.652,"text":"委員做一個報告"},{"start":6230.75,"end":6248.385,"text":"當時您說可以飛8年,但20年,未來會不會要30年40年,這也都是我們很關注的議題。我們當然也是希望說,如果能換了新的飛機,北部的空防很重要,能有新的飛機當然對我們的飛行員來說會有更多的保障。"},{"start":6249.385,"end":6271.748,"text":"另外,跟主委您現在的工作有關的是關於我們的親近農場親近農場很多人可能或許不知道是由這個退輔會來做管理的那7月8月暑假結束了不知道您清不清楚今年暑假我們親近農場的入園情形是如何的跟往年比起來是更好還是更差"},{"start":6272.666,"end":6290.792,"text":"當然就剛剛我們事業局署長有報告了,東勢東山發生之後那這些天災之後都有受到影響,我們那邊的山高山影響的整個的觀光所有的一些旅遊都受到影響但是他們都有辦一些活動,比方說奔陽節、牧羊人體驗"},{"start":6291.932,"end":6318.729,"text":"也請了東森的主播淑麗小姐到那邊報氣象這些整整的活動希望能夠帶動附近整個的觀光的氣氛好我們來看一下這個幾個新聞一個是2024年4月的時候是關於地震的因為地震的關係所以這個定防率下降那包含這幾個農場尤其像是南投也好"},{"start":6319.469,"end":6344.161,"text":"所以這個南投也有一些就他並不是在花蓮但是呢定房率清淨也掉了兩成然後後來呢又有颱風的關係清淨農場的定房呢又掉一成這是最近的去年颱風今年地震但其實呢在更早之前我們就發現了入園人數正在減少我們看下一張表格"},{"start":6345.943,"end":6352.253,"text":"從108年開始我們可以看到本來的入園人數是還蠻高的可是呢到今年你看"},{"start":6355.267,"end":6381.258,"text":"一百二十九萬嘛一百二十九萬那到今年剩下多少呢截至到六月我們不要啦我們看一整年的好不好剩下八十六萬而已那所以呢其實這個遞減可以說是相當的快速所以我們的入園人數從一百零八年到一百一十二年減少了相當的多那看起來今年可能因為截至到六月而已嘛那但可能會更少"},{"start":6382.499,"end":6396.928,"text":"雖然今年是有地震又有颱風可是在112年跟111年看起來就已經或許在先前受到疫情的影響那就已經變得更少了主委我會這樣問是因為清淨農場對於南投來說是非常重要的一個指標南投縣的主計處報告裡面就有提到清淨農場的發展是有效帶動十四縣沿途的經濟發展"},{"start":6410.436,"end":6413.421,"text":"現在清淨農場的入園人數減少會連帶影響周邊的商家前幾個月我在慈祐宮有遇到南投縣長徐淑華帶著一些南投的鄉親北上"},{"start":6425.498,"end":6437.125,"text":"他們就有跟我做陳情說他們是在南投清淨農場周邊的商家他們說呢生意的狀況越來越差尤其是在疫情之後更為明顯還有陸客團沒有再來之後也非常的明顯因為"},{"start":6443.148,"end":6458.592,"text":"先前陸客團確實有把親近農場就是南投縣作為一個主要的觀光旅遊的景點就南投被視為這個陸客團的一個主要觀光旅遊景點確實有這樣包含是新聞都有我們可以看新聞上寫說這個這個"},{"start":6462.573,"end":6472.078,"text":"陸客團看上這樣的自然環境：把親近農場列入行程當中：帶到中偏效應：但是：入團人數逐年減少：從2016的160萬人到現在2018年短短兩年 縮減了35萬人所以剛才我們提的數字還是比較少的2016年有160萬人 到現在其實我們剛剛舉出的數字剩下"},{"start":6487.446,"end":6492.828,"text":"請問一下雖然我們辦了去年的星空音樂會辦了奔陽節九月參加日本的旅展這些都非常好我們也支持宣傳跟創意可是看起來呢是成效並沒有到非常好"},{"start":6515.054,"end":6538.186,"text":"親近農展的推展費用111到114年都是編列了335萬左右這樣的推展費用請問一下您覺得足夠嗎那我們的觀光需要振興人數需要加強這方面的宣傳想問一下主委接下來我們應該要如何改善委員我請我們事業處處長跟你講一句就說沒有問題"},{"start":6539.383,"end":6562.449,"text":"委員好 我是事業處處長楊長正非常謝謝委員的關心對大清境地區的關心旅客人數減少是一個事實國內旅遊業的不振也是事實這也是造成人數減少的一個很大很大的原因剛剛委員打了一張表我們從事實上我們從疫情開始以後"},{"start":6563.029,"end":6563.309,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":6588.802,"end":6609.162,"text":"這幾年為了改善這個情形清淨因為是一個很好的環境教育場地我們也發展了我們鼓勵我們全國中小學的學生到清淨農場去做環境的教育那我們也發文到教育部請教育部配合的推進中小學生沒有什麼消費能力"},{"start":6609.462,"end":6610.022,"text":"那在交通方面呢"},{"start":6632.108,"end":6639.572,"text":"對,所以我說你們在曝展的時候對於國外的觀光旅客的交通宣導的方面來說可能要再多做一些補充因為對於他們來講外國的觀光旅客然後呢到親近農場還有就是呢其實現在來台灣旅遊的旅客韓國人居多,不曉得你有沒有發現"},{"start":6659.884,"end":6687.453,"text":"所以在對於韓國人的宣傳來講韓國觀光自由行或是團客的宣傳來講可能都應該要加強相關的還包括親近農場周邊商家的一些商標跟一些包含是菜館然後呢如果真的有韓國旅客來的話他們的一些指標啊路標啊菜單啊這些如果我們真的能夠吸引到韓國旅客的話這些都要再把它補上補強"},{"start":6688.673,"end":6704.634,"text":"那當然是有些吸引到韓國旅客因為像台北市的話就在這方面有蠻大的成效所以說你們要有一個方向跟目標到底你們能夠吸引到的是哪一方面的旅客而不是漫無目的的在一個會場"},{"start":6705.615,"end":6728.258,"text":"然後就擺一個場地就覺得能夠吸引到觀光客因為這是一個不要亂槍打鳥的方式所以你們應該要先分析說親近農場大概可以吸引到是哪一個國家哪一個族群他可能會對這樣子的一個環境他會比較有興趣他會想要來然後再針對這個族群他去做更多的行銷"},{"start":6729.179,"end":6729.279,"text":"謝謝委員指導"},{"start":6755.572,"end":6781.748,"text":"好謝謝徐曉鑫委員主委請回接下來我們請洪森翰委員上台質詢謝謝主席請嚴主委請嚴主委"},{"start":6792.771,"end":6803.861,"text":"主委最近大家在討論到這個關於所謂祖國的問題那賴總統其實也在國慶晚會其實也做了很清楚的釐清"},{"start":6804.898,"end":6820.245,"text":"那我們也看到有些人說到底誰把中華人民共和國當主國可是過去其實我們還是會在一些新聞上面其實還是在一些資料上面是看到會有一些退伍軍人那"},{"start":6821.704,"end":6821.784,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6846.021,"end":6867.798,"text":"中華人民共和國不可能是我們的祖國我們的祖國就是中華民國尤其軍人效忠國家一定要效忠人民都不可以做這些數典忘祖的事情那主委你這邊講得很清楚我們也不希望未來再有退伍軍人在做這些相關的言論跟行為"},{"start":6869.366,"end":6897.241,"text":"但當然我們也都知道中共勢必還是會持續地用各種方法不管是挖泥牆角或者是各種統戰的做法來去吸引更其他的可能也不只是退伏軍人類似相關的希望大家做這種相關言行的表態那我想問一下退伏會目前有沒有什麼明確的機制或做法因為剛剛朱薇講的是你的立場那在做法上面"},{"start":6898.487,"end":6924.053,"text":"主委可不可以再說得更清楚一點跟委員報告我們國內的退協組織有30多個跟我們輔導會都有關係用事業為目的所以我們常常都有做聯繫把這些相關的不管人民關係條例或者是國安法以及相關的一些規範都有跟他們做一些告知一些報告然後我們在地區的農夫處"},{"start":6925.553,"end":6933.557,"text":"我剛才就是說你剛才其實把立場說得清楚但我們希望在做法上面可以更明確然後做法上面希望可以更積極"},{"start":6952.935,"end":6971.781,"text":"那當然這個議題我們就先講到這邊那接下來當然我們也還是持續的想要來跟這個主委討論到關於我們退伏會在這個軍民專長轉嫌的這個問題主委下面一張主委我不知道你有沒有看過這個報導這是這段時間這個天下雜誌那他講了一個說美國的企業在大搶軍人我不知道主委有沒有看過這個報導"},{"start":6984.158,"end":6991.936,"text":"我在媒體上有看過有看過那一樣想問主委你覺得為什麼美國的企業搶著招募退伍軍人為什麼"},{"start":6995.083,"end":7015.37,"text":"因為軍人的忠誠度比較高而且管理能力也比較強管理能力比較強但我們看到這些報導是參考我們看到其實剛剛在講到說報導裡面說到美國退伍軍人其實他們用一個詞叫做是企業搶著挖角的人才金礦"},{"start":7016.79,"end":7030.284,"text":"所以各大現在是這個零售公司包括沃瑪包括AT&T包括美國銀行企業公司等等都搶著招募退伍軍人那其中一個很大的原因就是覺得軍人的抗壓性高而且領導力好"},{"start":7032.586,"end":7056.282,"text":"所以他說在民間其實很少有不到25歲的年輕人就已經有三四十歲的豐富經驗這是為什麼他們很想要搶著招募這個退伍軍人的原因但我想問主委你覺得為什麼台灣的企業沒有搶著招募退伍軍人我們的情境跟美國差異在哪裡我請事業處就業處處長跟你說明"},{"start":7059.744,"end":7064.027,"text":"委員好 我是舊學監事處處長池玉蘭在這邊跟委員報告當然我們軍人長期都是在軍中服役的話他確實是跟社會是有一點隔閡的但是這幾年我要回應的是這幾年特別疫情過後我們整個國家的勞動力是欠缺的百工百業在欠缺的過程這幾年非常多的企業主動找到我們輔導會希望我們能夠推介適任的"},{"start":7088.607,"end":7113.174,"text":"有質的一個退伍軍人到他們的企業去服務是這個所以我在這邊我想把這個問題拿用這個方式來表達的意思我並不是要否定退伍會不要誤會退伍會過去其實也做了很多的努力包括我其實在6月的時候我們那時候在質詢的時候其實我也看到退伍會跟國防部後來也很積極的在辦這個跨部會"},{"start":7114.214,"end":7140.856,"text":"成立跨部會的專案的小組甚至在10月1號的時候其實就已經訂出了實施的計畫這是我覺得我們都看到但我剛剛拿美國的狀況來講意思是說其實美國人做得到的狀況我們不一定做不到它是一個有可能可以做得到的目標的不是只是我們一直要把我們的退伍券推銷出去不是這樣子而已甚至做得好的話有可能企業自己都會想來搶人才"},{"start":7142.017,"end":7157.398,"text":"甚至他講的很可能他不是只是把退伍軍人當作勞動力他甚至是把他作為一個有領導力有管理能力的人才可能是做得到這件事情的這是我講美國的原因但是我現在有幾個問題就是說當然我們現在看到這個"},{"start":7158.908,"end":7173.05,"text":"在退伏會跟國防部在處理這個軍民專長轉弦機制的時候當然這裡面我們看到幾個重要的目標第一個是協助退伍官兵克服就業的困境這當然第一個"},{"start":7174.487,"end":7195.938,"text":"更重要我自己認為更重要是協助國軍招募官兵也就是說我們讓在招募的時候就讓大家知道你來入伍其實你的退伍以後你的就業的前景也是好的那這會更鼓勵大家願意到加入到國軍裡面這也解決我們很多國防安全上面的問題"},{"start":7197.304,"end":7222.324,"text":"那我也看到現在你們在退伏會的會計錄和實施計畫裡面有一個軍民專長轉型運用平台我看到這個運用平台那這個運用平台裡面你們規劃了時程2024年年底是先行規劃明年5月招標然後一年半以後希望能夠去啟用然後來借接三個部會的這個職能應用平台這些東西都很好但我想問的事情是我也想提醒先提醒"},{"start":7224.079,"end":7249.537,"text":"其實過去有很多資訊公司都跟行政院反應因為政府往往不是想得很清楚我有很多資訊平台後續要怎麼運用所以常常會造成這個所謂採購需求不明確或者是招標規格不清楚各種爭議所以變成最後可能會系統閒置這其實很多資訊平台或資訊公司也提醒所以為什麼後來行政院也公佈了採購資訊服務的作業指引"},{"start":7253.769,"end":7273.283,"text":"接下來我要問的問題就是關於剛剛講的建制這個軍民專長轉型運用平臺現在會不會打算怎麼運用謝謝委員的指導那事實上跟委員報告我們這一段期間都已經也去很重要的去拜訪勞動部"},{"start":7274.484,"end":7303.204,"text":"為什麼?因為我們勞動部將來我這個軍人民專長轉弦的系統裡面的介接其實是勞動部的職人基準還有他一個就業百科這個相關的一個網站我們把軍人的一個專長跟他一起透過AI的技術來把它做好那個比對的工作出場這部分我有聽到剛剛主委其實在回覆沈培洋委員的時候也講到這個AI的資料的運用是但是我要強調技術有這個技術很好"},{"start":7304.125,"end":7317.226,"text":"但重點是怎麼應用怎麼用得上那這怎麼用得上會關乎到我們到底現在欠缺什麼事是所以技術的規劃要跟我們現在欠缺的事情要能夠對應得上所以主長"},{"start":7319.729,"end":7331.398,"text":"您補充完是跟委員報告將來我這個御用平台的系統其實我們就是現有我有一個就業服務網我會去給他擴充簡單的來講這個退出役官兵來到我們容服處的時候我們的就業服務人員一個電腦按下去他就可以知道這個退出役官兵他在過去的相關的軍中的一個專長學歷等等能夠"},{"start":7345.469,"end":7346.69,"text":"我跟主委還是要說你們講這些規劃我都肯定"},{"start":7367.549,"end":7384.569,"text":"但是重點我說怎麼運用跟活用的點在於我們是不是先已經理解到我們現在在整個機制上面目前有什麼不足我比方說我們最近看了一些包括在學界其實也不少相關的研究在研究這個國軍官兵退伍以後的一些就業的困難"},{"start":7385.831,"end":7406.576,"text":"那做了幾個歸納：比方這大概是我們在參考一些相關的報告裡面看到的事情第一個他們講到執訓課程不足那說到這個執訓課程需要配合退伍時間可能選不到或者是不能選到真正想學的包括這個證照承認有限也就是這個退伍會辦的修車訓練民間保守長並不承認"},{"start":7407.856,"end":7408.236,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7431.636,"end":7450.709,"text":"回饋到那我們現在的資訊系統要怎麼樣子能夠更優化讓我們後端的這些不足有更多的支撐在系統平台資訊對接上面的支撐現在大家是希望是這件事所以這是要一直想強調的事情是系統有系統很好但系統不會用他就變成是死的"},{"start":7451.929,"end":7463.127,"text":"重點是怎麼活用這還是重點所以怎麼活用的應用的方式的部分這部分可能還是希望主委這邊多費心那我們在這邊因為時間有限我這邊有幾個建議也請主委看看"},{"start":7464.11,"end":7485.069,"text":"第一個事情是當然這個你們現在還在處在先期規劃的期間嘛這個先期規劃期間能不能夠請你們再加強包括就業就學的輔導包括如何改善執訓的內容因為執訓的內容其實就像剛剛講其實是很多人都有詬病的地方目前執訓的內容不足或者是品質可能還有一些問題"},{"start":7486.07,"end":7504.511,"text":"第一個是改善資訊的內容跟輔導的內容第二個剛剛說借接三個部會擴大資訊包括證照的認證如果證照的認證我們一直做很多證照可是民間就是不認對不起這接起來還是有困難我不管我的資訊系統怎麼建得再好都還是接不起來還是會有這個問題"},{"start":7505.552,"end":7518.485,"text":"最後當然也希望能夠把這些系統用在國軍的招募上面也就是說強調在招募的時候就強調這是我們會給大家支持讓大家可以知道我們有做這樣子的準備我說這些事情可能是在後端的活用跟應用上面"},{"start":7519.537,"end":7545.072,"text":"我們是不是能夠再做一些釐清那這個釐清之後可以把我們的需求再一次的回饋優惠到優化到我們的這個資訊平台上面的使用這可能相對是比較完整主委可以嗎是是可以謝謝委員的指導我們現在前端部分我們就把委員剛剛指導我們要把現況做個檢討比方說資訊剛剛講的資訊為什麼找不到他的資訊那這個系統完整是我們希望能夠把這個問題都克服讓"},{"start":7546.133,"end":7546.433,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7564.841,"end":7582.015,"text":"整個募兵制或者是整個募兵機制非常非常重要的關鍵所以可能這裡不只是像過去所謂照顧榮民這個概念而已的事情這其實已經影響到甚至影響到我們現在的軍力我們現在的國防實力其實都是一貫連結在一起的事情"},{"start":7582.595,"end":7606.385,"text":"這部分還是希望主委多費心每一個環節每一個環節資訊系統做好這很好可是後端的應用跟需求怎麼樣把它補強釐清我覺得這部分也很重要麻煩主委多費心謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝洪森漢委員主委請回接下來我們請王定宇召委上台諮詢"},{"start":7618.168,"end":7622.832,"text":"主委早辛苦了我第一個問題請教就是一個客觀現實的狀況不知道退服會要怎麼處理我曾經問過幾次我們當然有些長輩要落葉歸根他的親人在別的國家別的國度我們給予尊重"},{"start":7646.992,"end":7663.08,"text":"在世界上德國各國有的對退休給予的給付都要求親自來領取那台灣當然現在沒有這個規劃所以會有一些人是在國外的目前有關這個就養的農民從2020年當時有381位常住在中國平均年齡是92.4歲其實是相當高壽這好事情到2021年當然也會有凋零的現象"},{"start":7674.546,"end":7692.849,"text":"到2022年到2023年到現在2024年那人數是145那以往我們的制度是要派人去親自訪視坦白講這是一個防避措施因為世界各國有退休金的制度的地方都會擔心就是"},{"start":7693.71,"end":7708.185,"text":"人跟救養金要符合起來如果人不對人不在救養金的給付那這當然是一個弊端嘛那以往都會派人訪視那從2020年當年就是COVID-19爆發肺炎爆發"},{"start":7708.866,"end":7719.876,"text":"一直到2023年那你們都有編列附中的到中國的訪視預算那其實無法執行全部繳庫那本席現在注意到你們2025年又編了51.7萬元我請教諸位明年有辦法執行嗎"},{"start":7726.034,"end":7751.752,"text":"今年還是沒有...今年48.9萬也繳酷了嘛那明年的51.7萬你們要怎麼執行因為主要還是要看陸委會他的燈號現在目前陸委會的燈號是警示國人盡量避免前往中國大陸我請教主委齁我們去訪視因為你看到一百多個人以前還三百多個人然後遍佈在中國各個省份齁你們大概沒辦法做到普查啦"},{"start":7752.372,"end":7753.854,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7772.094,"end":7777.237,"text":"那龍家看完之後沒有問題繼續發放這個救養金有問題有慾兩次之後給調查局來看如果有問題就停養了指紋如果有問題因為你每一年發不同的社卡對對對對那那個卡有防偽的方式他有編號指紋都有編號他要停養那停養他勢必要到回台灣之後做驗證"},{"start":7795.129,"end":7812.925,"text":"才能繼續發放這是一個對 那我們要去大陸訪視主要是說目前145個人我只問驗證都沒有異常都是正常的是沒有問題的假設說我因為這個原因登號的嫌隙我們要把他到大陸親自來訪視在執行上是沒有問題的你沒有回答我的問題是"},{"start":7813.826,"end":7827.936,"text":"到中國去過去有381位現在2024年有145位你們訪視不可能全面嘛對那你們訪視的取樣的原則是什麼比如說我為什麼要去訪視傅政成我去訪視周星國你有選擇你要選擇怎麼去我選擇"},{"start":7831.638,"end":7854.421,"text":"他曾經發生過指紋驗證模糊的或是他年紀比較大的因為我們主要是要生存驗證主要是這樣那同時也許這個區域所以你們的選擇方式是從指紋回來有模糊的有模糊現象的但是你們過去有問題就送調查局那確認不符就停發所以有一些模糊的你們還是繼續發"},{"start":7855.962,"end":7856.883,"text":"他曾經有模糊"},{"start":7871.323,"end":7891.288,"text":"因為年紀大了你們被送到調查局調查局說欸這個看起來是他的指紋對對對對那這個人就會列為優先訪問那你們的模糊是十根指頭都要模糊還是一根還是兩根三根對他只有有模糊就有疑慮了OK所以我看你們變預算從大概跟的是這些在中國救養農民的人數會變那個預算數碼"},{"start":7893.909,"end":7902.005,"text":"所以顯示過去確實有一些有模糊的狀態需要去訪視確認但是卻又因為燈號的關係無法成形那這塊怎麼辦"},{"start":7903.94,"end":7928.117,"text":"報告委員：因為他還有關懷就是政府關懷德政的意思比如說我還是有人當然我去探視你是是驗證防弊關懷訪視他一體兩面是是我們都希望這些救養的農民不管在哪個國度在台灣在哪裡都能夠健康愉快這個是事實但因為在常住中國的救養農民平均年齡對"},{"start":7929.438,"end":7951.916,"text":"比我們台灣的平均年齡最高餘命還要年長比中國的更是年長差不多一二十歲以上所以這一個要去仿視是在我們公帑的支運上確實是有必要但我現在問的問題是你現在沒辦法去啊然後有一些指紋過去有模糊的情形過那你現在不能仿視你怎麼處理這個問題"},{"start":7953.752,"end":7969.745,"text":"因為我目前坦白說145人目前都是正常無意裝都無意裝你們有電話訪視嗎電話訪視因為我現在就是說電話訪視會龍家跟他家屬都會保持聯繫有什麼問題會直接跟他家屬講因為坦白講"},{"start":7970.345,"end":7992.076,"text":"各位如果派去訪試的具有我們國家中華民國的公職的身份照現在中國的不管用反間諜法相關的法律其實他想動你就可以入你於罪想動你就可以你身上帶的是我們國家的文書你去到那裡那不關個5年10年怎麼回得來有風險嘛所以確實你明年這51.7萬的執行"},{"start":7993.817,"end":7995.718,"text":"在中國現在越來越高壓"},{"start":8024.698,"end":8040.32,"text":"如果他要找你麻煩這個會是個問題所以主委我剛才問的這個是我知道你們的困難那預算邊在那裡不能執行坦白說每年面對審計單位你這個都要檢討你們到底有沒有找出一個可行的方法面對這個困境五年了"},{"start":8041.901,"end":8055.507,"text":"從2020年COVID-19開始21 22 23 24都無法執行坦白講本席是可以提案把這預算砍掉的啊砍掉對你也好啊因為砍掉你就不用執行了你沒有執行率的問題但是確實我們也希望有一些仿事關懷驗證"},{"start":8057.867,"end":8075.91,"text":"那主委可不可以折騰我們中央處這邊去思考有一些可執行的方法145個人住在城市的有哪些有沒有我們這邊有他的相片影像然後可以透過視訊的電話方法跟他聊上幾句話"},{"start":8077.071,"end":8077.892,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8096.168,"end":8117.258,"text":"主委對這件事情你有什麼看法找出一些方式去關懷兼防弊否則長期以往下去其實你們這筆預算已經五年無法執行那審計單位絕對會叫你檢討的啊好不好這一題然後下一個來這一題就跟剛才我看到好幾位委員關心執訓的部分"},{"start":8118.298,"end":8145.305,"text":"職訓是為了什麼?那個州長你可以回去啦職訓其實是為了幫我們國軍退除役官兵弟兄姊妹他在人生生涯的規劃的銜接有一個好的工作嘛所以我看到你們過去開班啊我還常常問我們處長這裡就是你有沒有去找我們需要很多企業需要員工那我們的退役的軍人所受的訓練有沒有符合這些企業的需求這個是一個重點"},{"start":8146.105,"end":8160.655,"text":"那現在呢 國內的護理人員護理師不足兩萬五千人我講這個我們農民醫院系統的院長們應該都有感受那個北農院長你在敬禮我也是很寄予同情的眼光你們護理師不夠啊"},{"start":8161.943,"end":8186.973,"text":"那護理師不夠薪水其實一直往上堆疊他工作量太重所以護理師越不夠他的工作份量越重你加再多薪水他就做不來然後就離開有一半以上護理學校的畢業生沒有考到護理師執照他就沒有去當護理師有的人就離開了那我為什麼要提這個我們現在這個衛福部有在思考也許你沒有護理師的專長"},{"start":8188.922,"end":8201.435,"text":"那我們來輔導他去考互佐那成為分擔護理人員的工作這解決了醫療困難那對我們退輔會來講互佐的薪水跟一般的平均薪資起來應該是比較高的"},{"start":8202.45,"end":8231.479,"text":"高於我們一般的平均薪資那如果有我們的退除役的官兵弟兄姊妹對這一塊有興趣我們也應該可以給他開設這樣的班我不知道主委或處長對這個有什麼想法現在目前開的班就是照顧員班照顧員班那召委指導的副佐現在目前衛福部我們所了解衛福部目前還在修正相關的草案還在討論的階段將來衛福部如果草案如果撤班了如果定案了我們會配合辦"},{"start":8232.182,"end":8252.728,"text":"我最後給主委一個意見我為什麼要提這一題你看我上面特別寫護佐人員要有下列的資格條件之一三個護理學校相關科系第二領有造福源訓練證書第三領有造福源的職類技術試證三個有一個我就可以去做護佐訓練"},{"start":8254.208,"end":8277.221,"text":"那可是我們我在國軍服役我現在去補讀那個護理學校來不及了嘛我不可能去讀高中職的護理學校或者是大專的護理學校來不及嘛所以我會建議處長跟退服會這邊第一個把未來副佐他的可能薪資弱點在哪裡這叫誘因工作內容是什麼這是他的負擔然後"},{"start":8278.294,"end":8284.96,"text":"告訴我們現在借退的國軍弟兄姊妹們你真的如果對這有興趣的話請你先報名造福員訓練"},{"start":8286.502,"end":8309.737,"text":"因為他不是護校畢業的你不用等衛福部通過因為這個草案是衛福部擬的他一旦通過我告訴你國軍弟兄多數不是護理學校畢業的啊他根本不能去受護佐訓練那我們現在是不是可以前進一點跟國防部在那邊討論借退借最近半年的根據這個訓期可能三個月請他們輔導他們先受這一個造福員的"},{"start":8310.598,"end":8325.198,"text":"正書或類技術證但他也許不是要去做這個attempt他不是要做這個工作但他拿到證書之後具備資格對他具備資格了我雖然不是護理學校畢業的但我有這個資格等到護佐的職缺開出來的時候他馬上可以報名退輔會的訓練這個時候"},{"start":8327.561,"end":8355.484,"text":"訓用合一也補足需求這個對醫界來講我就培養了人力的儲存戶對我們退除役官兵弟兄姊妹來講我有個好的出路我這個建議是不是可以請主委跟處長跟國防部討論現在戒退的最後半年他可以先受這兩個他說沒有啊我又不當看護不是你受完這兩個你就等同護理學校三位就要畢業你接下來就可以我們將來護佐卻你就可以受訓了來主委是不是請你說明一下"},{"start":8357.072,"end":8381.484,"text":"這個部分可以按照國防部討論我們可以做宣導對 宣導以外要有這個制度因為我們現在包含這個全民國防你從部長下來的不管全動署或過去的全民動員室或者現在的所謂的民間的任性其實EMT到EMTJEMT1到EMTJ這個訓練在民間如果越多"},{"start":8382.364,"end":8399.43,"text":"我們國家的安全能力就越高所以如果說我們藉退的人員可以取得這樣資格將來他又會進一步去受互佐訓練真的有興趣了他自己再去進修大學部的護理系考護理師他就有一個進程他可以就業"},{"start":8400.819,"end":8429.074,"text":"另外我們等於在社會上訓練了具備這樣子EMT能力我不知道是道萬兔或J啦具備這樣能力對國家韌性的提高也有幫助我可不可以請退輔會設法執行這一塊或者請處長這邊研擬方法我們的各地的榮福處可以針對退出役官兵來某職者可以推薦給他們對對大家要說明清楚就是說具備資格你收完這個訓你就可以接受互助訓然後互助薪水多少等等要有一些說明啦好不好"},{"start":8429.494,"end":8429.954,"text":"有請我們嚴主委請嚴主委"},{"start":8463.982,"end":8482.689,"text":"王委員好主委好那關於退休奉筆照金公教的條新這個一切問題的根源都在於物價條新只是一個結果有關於這個金公教員工的待遇經過審議委員會的決議在民國114年的1月1號起調整為3%"},{"start":8491.693,"end":8513.067,"text":"那當然自從1988年迄今25年來首度連續兩年的調薪也就是說111年後的第3次的調薪這兩次調薪皆為4%那調薪 主委 調薪的 經過調薪的原因是什麼"},{"start":8514.728,"end":8532.519,"text":"第二就是監工教員工是勞動經濟中的最標準的固定薪資階級意思也就是他們所得不會因為經濟環境而浮動這也是表示物價上漲的時候固定薪資階級的實際所得其實是減少的"},{"start":8535.72,"end":8557.449,"text":"所以消費者這個物價指數是金工教員工是否調薪的最重要的指標因為他們在任何的狀況沒有辦法因應這個物價指數所以諸位這個在上次我有特別提到這個部分你也非常的認同是嗎"},{"start":8560.028,"end":8579.901,"text":"有關於軍職退伍的泡澤他們定期給付金額的調整這是《陸海空軍軍事官服役條例》39條還有施行規則48條的規定這是剛剛委員所提到的當消費者的指數累積成長增幅5%然後每4年會做一個檢討這是現行的相關的規定"},{"start":8583.183,"end":8601.998,"text":"那要不要調整?調整的比例是由相關退輔機關,包括國防部、全系部、教育部共同組成專業評估的小組來評估整個調整的方案,就報告考試員跟行政院合併,本部來指使。那像剛剛委員說的,那目前最近兩次的調整"},{"start":8603.72,"end":8613.089,"text":"111年7月配合4年時間到了定期的調整調整2%那113年調整4%因為物價指數在111到112物價指數成長了5.52%那目前114年我所知道我們並沒有研議退職人員調薪的相關的一些事情好"},{"start":8626.525,"end":8649.211,"text":"所以也予以重視軍公教因為現在對軍人來講是他們最能夠在意的就是調薪那當然國軍希望能夠給他們一個非常重視跟尊重那另外就是有沒有可能農民"},{"start":8651.574,"end":8669.243,"text":"榮民的醫院到精英的醫院的看診的優惠你是不是可以責成跟國防部來做一個雙向的一個溝通因為很多我想各位你一生中你是軍人出身"},{"start":8670.143,"end":8684.089,"text":"我相信你的習慣都到你的在軍業裡面比如說替你看診的他的專業他的權威你可能會富裕信心交給他來看診"},{"start":8685.49,"end":8701.71,"text":"所以我們退伍之後我們變成農民的話當然我們到軍中到軍醫院裡面他所付的待遇並不是像農民一樣的優惠所以是不是可以雙向跟國防部裡面再做一個溝通能不能比照"},{"start":8702.651,"end":8706.416,"text":"上次委員指導之後,我們現在目前正在辦理的是不分退伍的關節,有志榮民全合補助"},{"start":8721.415,"end":8734.405,"text":"我們修了我們相關的一個就醫的辦法已經完成了現在目前呈報行政院在核定當中那這個將來的預算是每年大概增加新台幣1200萬元"},{"start":8736.667,"end":8764.762,"text":"那如果剛剛委員所指導的我們可以轉到國軍軍醫院的話那這個醫療補助的費用負擔我相信你們會考慮到這個預算的問題可能會增加一倍以上但是你們可以在院會提出這樣的想法如果不提出怎麼會有這個怎麼會有這個機會但這也是直接照顧到軍人啦好不好你也是本身軍人我也是本身軍人"},{"start":8766.443,"end":8776.318,"text":"那我想說你們提出這樣的一個概念這是一個我的論述希望能夠促成好不好另外就是因為"},{"start":8777.95,"end":8804.484,"text":"我比個案例108年的5月1號警察消防海巡移民空勤人員醫療照護實施的方案的對象是警消海巡移民及空勤等人等人員及遺見而且還包含退休人員照護的方式之一是以國防部"},{"start":8805.104,"end":8820.674,"text":"退補會所屬的醫療機構就醫時免收掛號費而且在國防部退補會所屬醫療機構就醫健保部分分擔者來這個費用由"},{"start":8822.245,"end":8841.893,"text":"行政院全額補助所以這個可以比照這樣的一個方案然後來做一個討論跟我們的國防部來雙向的一個溝通來替我們這個軍人能夠習慣到軍醫裡面看審也比照榮民的待遇裡面好不好謝謝委員關心"},{"start":8842.793,"end":8871.463,"text":"那另外就是針對退補會高山農場恐遭到光電板的入侵那我想你們這個退補會有在新聞稿裡面有澄清這個新增太陽能相關事項系針對現況無法農業這個農業耕作使用是低度利用土地農場得以符合地方政府土地使用管制規定前提之下"},{"start":8871.903,"end":8876.266,"text":"請問在設置這樣的一個這麼清幽而且沒有污染的地方而造成你光電的設置造成污染"},{"start":8893.839,"end":8920.125,"text":"這個就是你們要考慮的地方因為退不回全國經營的五大農場機構經營事項正式新增太陽能及生殖能相關事項所以你們要考慮如果建蓋這個太陽能只是你們剛剛所提的你們新聞稿的澄清裡面的範圍可是一旦設置太陽能的時候可能就不止這個範圍了為什麼"},{"start":8922.625,"end":8940.541,"text":"業者會借用這個機會裡面去設置其他的一個地方所以這個就是你們要思考的可不可能暫緩先不要再做這樣的一個光電的一個入侵的一個辦法你們再思考看看有沒有可能"},{"start":8941.758,"end":8970.598,"text":"各位有關於農場開放重電造成環境問題我跟委員做過說明我們曾經發佈過新聞稿我們現在目前山高山光光的農場是絕對沒有那個絕對會影響就是山高山是沒有的我們現在唯一有的是平地彰化農場是平地農場那這平地農場彰化農場有16處大概17公頃它是設置在哪裡是低度利用等於沒有開發價值的土地的地方一個排水溝"},{"start":8971.579,"end":8971.959,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":9000.146,"end":9027.759,"text":"謝謝我們主委今天提出的想法我們是一致的那另外就是剛剛徐巧欣委員所提的幻象2000不管今天它就是要做一個雙渦輪雙引擎我們今天我們所有的幻象2000所有的機密它包含它的機種機能跟它的這個整個的一個信念對岸都已經了若指掌第二個"},{"start":9028.539,"end":9057.984,"text":"我們未來我們如果要延續延壽8年甚至到20年有沒有必要更換新的機種以成本的條件來說如果今天我們在延續延壽但是如果它的成本的價高而且它的機種它的極限提高價格的話我們國人能不能接受所以是你們思考的地方好不好"},{"start":9059.045,"end":9073.727,"text":"謝謝委員我把委員意見轉達給我們空軍因為我上次都已經質詢有關於這個換項兩線的一個汰換的問題我相信你們在擔任國防部的時候你就很清楚他的性能沒有錯"},{"start":9074.528,"end":9101.569,"text":"但是如果8年延售到20年已經機種已經以現代的機種來講改為6代機了改為6代機了所以有沒有必要延售有沒有必要再來來跟他們做一個簽約合同把這些的這個機種再延售下去成本過高成本過高好不好主委我會轉達給他們謝謝委員指導"},{"start":9109.14,"end":9133.993,"text":"主委請回接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們請主委"},{"start":9138.499,"end":9138.88,"text":"有請主委"},{"start":9148.047,"end":9174.898,"text":"陳委員好主委好所以剛才王定委有特別王定委員有特別提到這個關於護左的這個相關的議題那其實這跟醫療都有相關那其實最近我們常常提到說很多一些民間團體那針對重大災變或者是面臨緊急的應變的時候都在講說要怎麼樣去做基本的防護包含急救等等"},{"start":9175.878,"end":9203.538,"text":"我是希望說農民總醫院跟其他的相關由退輔會所轄管的能夠做這樣的準備就是特別把這些相關的儲備藥品輸液或者是一些包含抗生素等重大災害必須要應對的這些儲備量必須要因應情勢來去做調整有的時候當然是在和平的期間當然不需要做這樣的事情但是如果我們是希望說有跨部會的平台如果國安"},{"start":9204.258,"end":9208.101,"text":"提早做準備的時候這些調配這些重要的這些藥物的這些儲備必須要把它提高"},{"start":9220.311,"end":9237.332,"text":"委員這個在我們衛福部主導的所謂的動員計劃我們退伍會也是一環這裏面是動員計劃的一個團體一個單位這裏面包含剛剛委員所講的藥物醫事人力病床設施急救全部都有相關的規劃這屬於動員工業界塊沒錯都有"},{"start":9239.935,"end":9240.516,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9256.596,"end":9279.822,"text":"完善的機制,我只是因為王帝委員特別提到這個部分,我認為還是要做好一些,平時都要做好一些準備。是,跟委員報告,這邊有25項的藥品,跟70項的衛材,那整個三大種種,臺北、臺中、高雄,它增加的儲備量是25000人份,這是平常,按照我剛剛跟委員報告的動員準備計劃裡面,就已經做好儲備好了。"},{"start":9281.803,"end":9308.028,"text":"非常好謝謝主委那我還是在強調因為近期有提到這個森林食鹽水的這個這些輸液的這個缺貨的狀況所以我們都必須要做好準備的原因我還是要再提醒對其實這個除了市場機制之外因為在比較緊急的狀況之下就不符合市場機制我們變得要做非常應變那所以必須有一些相關的這個部分我還是希望趕快準備好"},{"start":9308.308,"end":9309.068,"text":"主委,您知道是哪三個縣市嗎?"},{"start":9333.676,"end":9348.492,"text":"馬祖只有馬祖,馬祖沒有榮福處,馬祖是歸新竹榮福處來管理分別是新竹連江跟我們的嘉義縣因為嘉義縣的業務是由我們嘉義市的榮福處來負責"},{"start":9350.734,"end":9376.052,"text":"不過不會因為沒有在地的農福處而缺少我們退福會的服務因為畢竟縣市其實是一體的儘管說在縣的部分沒有我們直接的農福處但是我還是必須從人數來看從農民的人數來看我們嘉義縣的人數大概是有4000多人那跟這個宜蘭雲林差不多那跟這個南投台東5000多人也相距不遠"},{"start":9376.872,"end":9400.565,"text":"可是如果是嘉義縣加上嘉義市的話就有7500多位的農民朋友那都由同一個農民服務處來提供服務可是如果說我們嘉義縣農民有業務要處理就要跑到嘉義市這樣的車程可能會花一些農民朋友半天以上的時間特別如果是在山區的話那不僅僅是在我們嘉義縣市那幾個這個福原寮或者縣市也有這樣子的情況"},{"start":9402.586,"end":9413.372,"text":"融服處都有責任區的輔導員來去做這些探訪跟協助那我們加一縣市共7500農民但是只有4個責任區的輔導員11個社區的輔導組長"},{"start":9417.774,"end":9442.417,"text":"我想請教一下主委我們嘉義縣的農民朋友受到這樣子的量能會不會相對的比起來會協助得到的協助會不會更少那我們要怎麼樣去做一些修正或者是改善跟委員報告按照嘉義縣嘉義市農民員數7500然後服務組數11組農運智慧142這個服務量能來看跟其他比他是比的是比較低的"},{"start":9443.138,"end":9458.412,"text":"所以讓委員指導之後我想我回去會請我們輔導處怎麼樣去增加這塊嘉峪縣市地區的服務量的不管是服務的主數或者是榮興志工數一定要能夠滿足當地榮民的服務的一個目的"},{"start":9459.772,"end":9486.902,"text":"謝謝主委那我再強調一下其實資源的配置本來就因為它不是無限的資源本來就要做一些配置上面的考量那除了剛才主委講到的針對嘉義縣市的配置可能做調整之外我還是強調現在儘管說我們現在農民朋友現在跟過去一樣以前都會曾經會加一個老農民但現在其實很多農民朋友他還正值中壯年但是這一些"},{"start":9488.137,"end":9488.457,"text":"主委來去協助"},{"start":9512.907,"end":9514.408,"text":"加益分場的觀光活化"},{"start":9545.008,"end":9563.755,"text":"委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正針對嘉義分廠其實我們一直想跟嘉義縣政府合作西拉雅風景區合作現在也在密切的合作因為我們本身就有碼頭那未來大埔藍色公路的游戲廊帶一個計劃我們是積極參與的我們也拜訪積極拜訪聯繫的我們吳明君鄉長"},{"start":9570.378,"end":9595.247,"text":"當地鄉民的期待在我們招商的過程裡面我們都納入鄉民的意見所以未來我們還是以觀光產業為主來這樣朝這個方向來做我們113年總共辦理了6次的招商說明會總共有24家的廠商來參與那很可惜可能有些原因廠商裹足不前"},{"start":9595.427,"end":9595.487,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9615.593,"end":9635.581,"text":"也是經過你們的回覆啦你們有提到說是因為公司資本額高水源保護區法令嚴格這些都是在這個考量他們的考量範圍所以傾向來不予投標那針對公司資本額過高跟水源保護區法令的部分你有什麼樣的你們有什麼樣的見解資本額過高的地方其實我們考量我們自己做內部會議檢討以後我們可以把它降低"},{"start":9641.243,"end":9659.732,"text":"降低以後可以增加他們參與的人數公司的意願就這樣另外一個就是開發期程原本我們規範是3.5年開發期程稍微給他延長在開發期間我們就不收他的權利金只收地租用這種方式來擴大廠商的投資意願"},{"start":9660.694,"end":9681.944,"text":"好謝謝因為我們是希望說這樣子的分場可以盡快開始營運不要放在那邊當成是蚊子館而且我還是在強調大埔鄉包含這個水庫周遭的這個風景它其實是非常優美的它確實是有潛力成為重要的這個景區那越快越好好不好這個部分再麻煩你那最後"},{"start":9683.272,"end":9708.622,"text":"剛才我們其實節目委員有提到那主委我們這次報告裡面有提到說提供軍民轉場結合AI運用功能我想請教一下現在距離有哪一些難以解決的問題或瓶頸用傳統方法無法有效解決需要用AI技術來去克服的傳統方法跟委員報告因為他比較沒辦法跟民借解軍中的專長跟民間借解"},{"start":9709.763,"end":9737.181,"text":"這個系統主要就是讓我們軍中的專長能夠很順利的跟民間的這些職場所謂的職業借鑒所以我們在這系統剛剛有報告除了軍中的專長要輸進去然後勞動部所有的職業要輸進去還有所有的職業的百科全部都輸進去這三大部分都在這裡面然後就做個分析就對接將來出來之後能夠有一個滿意的一個需求"},{"start":9738.902,"end":9741.223,"text":"提供足夠的資訊,才能夠做有效的借鑑。"},{"start":9759.525,"end":9764.067,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9781.809,"end":9792.676,"text":"其實我這個主席可不可以再20秒再補充一個這個主委你有沒有聽過DEFDefense Entrepreneur Forum就是國防創業論壇"},{"start":9795.959,"end":9818.365,"text":"這是一個在美國一個在推行的一個論壇那是由軍方人員跟退役人員還有科技界創業界的人共同來組成的一個論壇那這個論壇沒有任何的強制性就是等於是他們從民間主動去發起的那我們一直提到這件事情的原因是他其實跟退服會有關聯其實很多軍人退休"},{"start":9819.205,"end":9838.431,"text":"或者是這個退伍的這些朋友們他們其實本身有很多專長那他們可以在退役之後來發展第二個這個第二層他可以自己去創業跟國防相關的跟科技相關的跟國防科技相關的那藉由這樣子的論壇讓這一個他們退休的退役的這些軍人"},{"start":9838.911,"end":9839.031,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9869.572,"end":9884.584,"text":"不一定要用同樣的名字,類似的這些做法,多創造可能性,就是說除了在現有的可能性之外,創造多出來的可能性,讓這些退役人士有機會來去參與新創、創新。謝謝。謝謝委員指導。謝謝陳冠廷委員。主委請回。那接下來我們請楊崇英委員上台質詢。"},{"start":9903.206,"end":9905.77,"text":"現在主席 楊祖銘發言 邀請主委"},{"start":9914.11,"end":9934.927,"text":"主任好,我想台灣非常榮耀的就是我們整個醫療體系,所以醫療體系我們努力也跟卓院長一直在討論,跟邱部長在討論,也就是點子議題。那終於,雖然卓院長跟邱部長不太同調,但是方向一致。"},{"start":9935.848,"end":9962.868,"text":"明年的一點零點九五那邱部長也有這個目標也有這個信心我們大家一起努力但是我們看到進來的跟我們的成本就這一次在醫界裡頭的電力問題因為它24小時不能停所以我們立即反映像這麼重大你竟然讓醫院要漲價"},{"start":9964.485,"end":9990.472,"text":"那這個同步的又會嫁禍到我們整個人民這是非常的不公平的一件事情因為你的政策錯誤要讓人民來受苦這是不對的所以還好他們也聽到了這個聲音那麼也將醫療院所的就動長但是我要提醒主委你是大家長籠總體系全部都在這裡現在是動長"},{"start":9994.127,"end":10021.787,"text":"而不是不漲什麼時候又要漲你的成本要怎麼增加這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題這一次我們擋掉了這個漲價的問題但是我們還是非常的害怕我們謹慎所以因此你是大家長你要嚴正以待對不對你要充分的告訴政府醫療體系不能亂漲"},{"start":10023.516,"end":10039.121,"text":"我24小時ICU什麼通通都不能漲欸都不能停欸你一漲了我怎麼辦啊我現在就身臨塗炭了我告訴你對不對你要大聲像我這個精神告訴政府他就聽得到"},{"start":10039.974,"end":10065.828,"text":"醫護筆"},{"start":10066.789,"end":10067.87,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":10086.852,"end":10100.224,"text":"經濟方案給本席我希望護病比他還有下修的空間那怎麼樣讓他們可以留得住這是你大家長的責任一個月將經濟方案給本席"},{"start":10100.965,"end":10100.985,"text":"北龍"},{"start":10116.244,"end":10130.838,"text":"有附設龍光幼稚園說兩歲到六歲我們中龍有零到二歲托嬰立法院在我們的轉角也有那其他的沒有啊那怎麼辦呢最後你們發覺這個問題"},{"start":10132.97,"end":10155.54,"text":"我們既然已經有了可以當一個典範大家來磨來學習因為每一個區塊的樣態不一樣所以本市非常希望政府也有規定啊你多少人你就要射啊你幹嘛政府自己帶頭對不對違法不讓他們安心啊你看我的助理他生了一個baby他把孩子帶到那邊再來上班"},{"start":10156.67,"end":10157.651,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10169.209,"end":10193.684,"text":"這個托嬰中心的確是非常重要的現在目前我們榮民體系只有中榮他是有這個托嬰中心的其他各榮院因為考量這個地方的一個要不要去盤點目的加強醫務人員在他生孩子之後他可以重返回來啊這些有經驗有能力的不能讓他跑掉啊對不對"},{"start":10194.324,"end":10212.974,"text":"安定人心是你要不要做啊要做要做齁你去盤點好不好你去盤點之後看要怎麼做請各位委員會盤點盡量能夠推動盡量能夠推動那同時這個我很感謝你多久時間要告訴我你去盤點這個要一點時間讓各位委員會盤點沒關係你告訴我幾個月的時間多久時間要多久時間盤點"},{"start":10219.52,"end":10241.935,"text":"我們把盤點的結果看是不是3個月,因為榮業有16所榮業3個月時間去盤點也嚴密方案我們諧訓漸進去把它精進嘛因為你既然招不到人你至少讓你現在內部的人可以安定下來他生孩子之後他還可以再緩回欸對不對這是我們既有的就不能讓他跑掉嘛同不同意這個論調"},{"start":10243.496,"end":10262.625,"text":"了解是同意不同意同意同意三個月內去進行接下來我告訴你一個嚴肅的應該要做的應該要做謝謝你我告訴你一個議題我們每一天啊在拜託病房陳情安太可憐了我們也沒辦法所以你要從根"},{"start":10263.908,"end":10290.938,"text":"去解決現在的入病房大概都是96%、97%、98%更何況有急急路路人在急診室突然間要來的對不對你現在的病房已經飽和到這個程度你該怎麼辦你不能拒絕病人我們榮總是金字招牌要怎麼辦要怎麼辦所以主委這是你的功課"},{"start":10292.506,"end":10320.345,"text":"你去盤點他已經90幾%的你要找邱部長啊對不對你找他來橫向討論我這哪一個院所可以再增加多少病房你要幫我請我們龍總的負責人自己去趕快想辦法對不對你當一個大家長你必須要去解決根本的問題根本的問題好不好全部滿90幾%"},{"start":10322.567,"end":10331.568,"text":"那你要怎麼去解決我把這個功課給你我把這個功課給你真正的來照顧我們的人民嘛因為你不能拒絕病人好不好"},{"start":10332.455,"end":10359.61,"text":"美其名我稱讚你說錄病房的都97、98、99%甚至超標有的留在這個急診室沒有病房其實都超過二吧都100%啦都100%了我把這個社會現象我想主委你拼命點頭你也知道這個問題北龍的陳院長你站上來你可以告訴我方案嗎對不對你要告訴我方案啊你怎麼樣"},{"start":10361.721,"end":10387.321,"text":"因為所有的院所都一樣都需要啊所以部長等一下陳院長回答以前部長你要多跟邱部長喝咖啡對不對源頭在那裡啊合不合準在那裡啊對不對你不要讓底下的跳腳啊你要多跟邱部長喝咖啡嘛好不好主委你有沒有跟邱部長喝過咖啡你同意誰"},{"start":10390.973,"end":10394.514,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10413.447,"end":10413.567,"text":"謝謝楊從英委員"},{"start":10440.011,"end":10464.667,"text":"那我們請林玉君委員接下來質詢謝謝主席：有請研主委教委好"},{"start":10466.365,"end":10479.278,"text":"主委好我剛剛看了業務報告裡面第19頁有提到退輔會至110年開始有一個新興向榮的計畫負責培育友誼從事榮業的退出役官兵那請問主委30個人結訓13個人從榮這樣是110年到現在的統計還是今年度的統計呢"},{"start":10487.485,"end":10514.732,"text":"目前是41個人41個人目前新增加了到41個人那41個人這裡面有兩成將近20個人是從農的那這裡的資料是110年事辦所以是110年到現在就對了嘛對不對而如果是三年內就是只有這樣的退出役官兵開始勿農這樣的話是不是這個數字還是有很大的努力空間我們盡量去輔導去宣導"},{"start":10517.114,"end":10533.329,"text":"所以希望退伍會在訓練退出役官兵從事農業上還是需要更費心更努力然後接下來想要請教主委一下就是你們退伍會旗下的農場土地面積非常的廣大但閒置的土地到目前為止你們清查了有多少土地閒置狀況嗎"},{"start":10536.977,"end":10553.207,"text":"委員好我是事業管理處處長其實我們現在農場的土地沒有閒置的狀況都在委外經營大概有2000多公頃其他現在沒有委外經營的土地除了自營以外都是公共設施的用地或機關的用地"},{"start":10553.527,"end":10555.988,"text":"所以現在就是都沒有閒置的狀況就對了那你們修訂了一個叫做所屬農場管理經營的辦法第3條加入退伍會所屬的農場經營的綠電條款這個等於退伍會農場可以處分或利用閒置的土地這樣開了一扇大門那這個光電開發的利益其實就很龐大了我們都知道過去幾年光電開發其實是弊案連連有的連農地都拿來種電"},{"start":10579.261,"end":10590.058,"text":"甚至還是在生態失地上面蓋太陽冷板那我想要請教主委退伍會對於農場土地開發現在有沒有什麼防避措施呢還是要如何確保你們修這個法會不會讓退伍會在未來也會牽扯到這些弊案呢"},{"start":10594.925,"end":10617.399,"text":"報告委員我先跟您報告首先我們農場種田在山高山農場我們是不種田的剛剛黃委員問的時候我們也這樣答覆事實上也不會在山高山農場種田因為他們是國內非常重要的觀光資源那目前為止我們就在彰化農場種田大概有17公頃在種田16處地方這些地方都是溝渠、賽場"},{"start":10619.44,"end":10619.52,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10630.273,"end":10649.686,"text":"我們不允許我們的委員戶來直接參與重電所以這個是最主要防病我們擔心是假委員增重電的方式你要申請跟我們委員農場那我們絕對不會允許這個當兵拿來重電而且每一個案子都是我們會裡面親自審查的這個這點請委員放心"},{"start":10652.264,"end":10676.529,"text":"好那你們有沒有辦法就是說退我有沒有辦法在這個企業中要求業者一定要僱用一定比例的退出役官兵呢?這樣是不是可以增加退出役官兵的就業的機會呢?因為這種事情我覺得是應該要努力而且要努力達成因為這個要保障退出役官兵的工作權而且現在退出會要利用這個手上的籌碼盡量可以幫忙我們退出役官兵爭取待遇比較好的工作"},{"start":10677.768,"end":10706.783,"text":"主委你覺得是嗎?應該,我們不管是農場或者事業單位,我們都鼓勵退出役官兵來就業,所以這是我們安置的一個目的,最重要的目的之一。好,那我想要再請教主委一個問題,就是因為本席跟花蓮地區的環保及戶數的團體都非常關心的問題,那就是有關現在為我們花蓮有臺東農場管理的松原別館相違外馬,因為光光的景氣都熄燈了,所以造成"},{"start":10707.583,"end":10708.564,"text":"請問退伍會有沒有什麼樣的維護計畫呢?"},{"start":10729.783,"end":10755.675,"text":"委員好我們的松原別管因為受到疫情跟地震的影響颱風的影響我們統計到今年的8月份它的遊客數衰退65%所以廠商經營不下去了那經營不下去之後我們在休園期間事實上我們跟廠商有達成協議就是裡面的設施包括我們的珍貴的松樹他都要負責維管了我們農場又派人去花蓮分廠派人去維管"},{"start":10756.335,"end":10777.681,"text":"目前為止我們在10月7號的時候也重新招標出去的這裡面很大的一個議題我們跟廠商的合作意向就是要珍貴老松樹的照顧所以請委員放心所以你們已經找到新的營運團隊10月要進駐松原別館了是不是對現在在整修大概明年的1月就開始營運了"},{"start":10778.68,"end":10779.541,"text":"首先要恭喜北榮還有中榮還有高榮三家醫學中心都獲選2025年全球的智慧醫院的牌"},{"start":10799.713,"end":10799.773,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10828.51,"end":10856.104,"text":"花東山院主要是北榮負責,臺北榮總支援花東山院,112年3個院分配13,到了113年變成81,所以支援能量是擴充的,整次也是從88到134,顯著的增加。目前現職人數是玉里、鳳林各2位,但是支援人數玉里增加到34位之多。"},{"start":10857.146,"end":10862.263,"text":"相關的一些經濟的措施,因為北榮院長今天剛好又來,我請他跟您做詳細的報告"},{"start":10864.166,"end":10888.674,"text":"報告的召委,我們有三個分院在那裡,其實我從花蓮出來,我在花蓮待過下鄉兩年,有特殊的情感,所以他們的狀況我非常的清楚,我一直在鼓勵醫院優秀的同仁,盡量到花東去,照顧他們健康,不過因為受0403的地震,0725的凱敏颱風,的確受到一些影響,不過現在已經派了一個很棒的副院長過去,"},{"start":10889.534,"end":10890.195,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10909.569,"end":10917.994,"text":"因為現在也知道常常就是0403地震之後那個交通都斷了所以東部的醫療還有東部的職員這些真的是需要那個退伍會來重視的還有根據我的了解外服佈置111年有一個原住民及離島地區的醫事人員公費生養成的計劃是111年到115年原本規劃"},{"start":10932.742,"end":10949.953,"text":"未來5年每年有3名的醫學系的公費生後來考量因為金門縣的未來的醫療照顧人力的需求所以在他第5期的計畫中再增加10名金門縣的醫學系的公費醫生培育的名額那我想要請教主委"},{"start":10950.293,"end":10953.876,"text":"就是我們花蓮、臺東這地區雖然不是離島啦但是也是屬於原住民的地區偏遠的地區那今年都歷經了0403然後又凱米風災然後再加上最近的山陀爾風災全部這樣幾乎路都斷了造成花蓮對外的交通幾乎中斷"},{"start":10969.008,"end":10973.029,"text":"都快變成孤島了請問一下在你們退伍會的榮總體系下尤其是臺北榮總在花東地區還有御鳳臺三分院長期面臨的醫師人員的不足根據內政部今年的2月第6週的統計通報各縣市原住民的人口以花林有9.3萬人最多"},{"start":10991.974,"end":11017.936,"text":"那表示我們花蓮地區原住民的人數那麼多那你們要如何主動努力有沒有什麼作為呢有沒有什麼計劃呢還是你們是不是要向行政院和衛福部爭取推動由臺北榮總訓練增加培育公費的醫生到花東服務的名額因為這樣我們可以推動花東醫生的在地化而且以充實花東地區的基層及偏鄉地區的醫師人力"},{"start":11022.557,"end":11043.844,"text":"報告委員在地深耕是最重要的事情那其實金門醫療也是臺北榮總在負責那現在金寶生的成效已經出來現在金寶生回去回鄉服務的人變多了所以資源變少了金寶生他為了作用所以剛才森委員也提出這個問題我們就大膽的向衛福部會提出請求"},{"start":11044.244,"end":11071.554,"text":"如果能花寶生、冬寶生這個是可以長期培養更多的公費生我本身也是公費生這個對花冬會有很大的幫助短暫的資源、滾水那個是沒有辦法去生根那我們如果可以有生根的計畫這個是對我們花冬會有很大的助益所以我們會朝這條路也跟衛福部來溝通那朝這條路來幫助花冬的我們的病人"},{"start":11071.854,"end":11095.636,"text":"好那這樣的話可能就要朝這個方向去努力因為之前有來辦公室報告過也是說現在交通的方面就是有時候路就斷了本來是要去支援的醫生本來準備要去的還是已經去的一天又要回來他根本沒有辦法回來所以我當初也是有建議說那是不是支援醫生要說在那邊就是三個月呢還是一個月呢還是因為大部分的醫病關係都是"},{"start":11097.498,"end":11097.538,"text":"謝謝各位謝謝"},{"start":11146.334,"end":11155.118,"text":"接下來我們請羅志強委員上台質詢有請原主委請原主委"},{"start":11162.524,"end":11183.966,"text":"主委好你擔任過國防部長參謀總長國安會秘書長歷任重要君子也語文國家安全核心要務那我有一些很憂心的問題想要請教您的意見最近有一位美國國際關係和政治學大師米爾斯海默他在接受訪問時提出一個讓我震驚又難過的看法他說"},{"start":11185.007,"end":11212.12,"text":"烏克蘭將成為丟失大片領土的殘存政權請問主委你有看過這段訪問嗎沒有看過米爾斯海默的訪問有兩個重點第一個就是烏克蘭很難撐過2025年因此在今年底到明年初之間戰爭就會結束然後轉變成凍結衝突至於烏克蘭將成為一個功能失調丟失大片領土的殘存政權"},{"start":11213.34,"end":11226.296,"text":"第二,北約直接派遣地面或空中部隊進入烏克蘭,並與俄軍直接交火的可能性非常小,因為美國也不希望跟俄羅斯打一場大國戰爭。您對於米爾斯海默前面這兩項主張有什麼看法嗎?"},{"start":11233.564,"end":11253.494,"text":"報告委員二無戰爭這些年打到現在那烏克蘭主要是以北約為首的美國為首在那邊支持那雙方當初為了一些領土的主權這些爭議那目前來看似乎也不至於像教授剛剛講的那個結果"},{"start":11254.934,"end":11273.946,"text":"你認為不至於那麼悲觀吧其實我也希望不要那麼悲觀啦但是米爾斯海默的看法目前看起來不是單一的特例那也越來越多國際的媒體甚至專家學者也紛紛有對烏克蘭的前途表示一些悲觀的看法比如說金融時報就報導說澤倫斯基訪美空手而還"},{"start":11277.208,"end":11305.468,"text":"沒有要到攻打俄國的長程武器也沒有獲到承諾加入北約那經濟學人的報導說烏克蘭本國內反對領土換和平的民意從八成七降到了五成五那西方有些媒體過去對於力挺基輔為民主而戰那最近也開始轉變一些擔憂擔心烏克蘭沒有辦法贏回國土也難以停戰我先說我非常同情烏克蘭我也不樂見"},{"start":11306.229,"end":11333.257,"text":"今天烏克蘭走向米爾斯海默或這些國際媒體的悲觀預測但我希望臺灣的領導者把今日的烏克蘭當作禁止不要變成下一個烏克蘭我不知道那個主委你認同我這樣的擔心嗎當然是和平是無價的戰爭沒有人願意的所以像俄烏戰爭我想大家都看得到這狀況是非常慘的尤其是百姓平民所以我們是希望能夠追求和平"},{"start":11334.257,"end":11361.988,"text":"那我就要把視角轉到臺灣內部來我今天看到聯合報短評提到大選後美國國會代表團來臺綜藝人蓋拉茲爆料蔡賴兩人很關心原屋預算被卡那臺灣非常擔憂美國會從烏克蘭一走了之我不知道蔡英文跟賴清德有沒有對美國表示對烏克蘭情勢的擔心但我認為他們真的該擔心那主委你覺得他們會擔心該擔心嗎"},{"start":11369.756,"end":11384.127,"text":"那我要特別講我覺得他們該擔心因為事實上相同的情形我們要去看到烏克蘭這邊禁止才能夠防止那事實上蔡總統訪問捷克他過去捷克一直很支持烏克蘭但是"},{"start":11385.428,"end":11414.488,"text":"捷克總統帕維爾3月才代籌炮彈現在卻要烏克蘭跟支持者面對現實讓部分領土暫時處於俄國控制之下這讓我想到蔡總統以前說過臺灣跟烏克蘭一樣絕不妥協但是這次訪問我就覺得那蔡英文可不可以問一下那是不是捷克的態度依然是希望烏克蘭絕不妥協還是如捷克總統現在的建議會所謂面對現實那接下來我就要問到今天實際上我們可以看到"},{"start":11415.128,"end":11415.292,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":11415.563,"end":11445.183,"text":"最近您知道賴清德總統他有主持全社會防衛任性委員國安會提出了40萬可支援軍事行動的可視名利計劃範圍非常龐大包括公務人力、民間救災團體、現役退役的替代役、義務警消、社區名利以及還有其他的NGO組織連慈善團體都沒放過也要放進來我想請教一下我們退輔會主要是服務的對象是誰"},{"start":11446.244,"end":11465.144,"text":"我們服務對象是榮民榮眷退出役官兵那請問榮民榮眷退出役官兵有沒有放進這個可視名利當中可視名利這40萬的可視名利有沒有把榮民榮眷退出役官兵算進去如果是動員規劃也算的話那我們就是有參與動員規劃這一塊"},{"start":11467.099,"end":11482.844,"text":"最後我做一個簡單的結論事實上我覺得我為什麼前面要提烏克蘭的狀況烏克蘭其實也是全民皆兵 舉國皆戰對不對 打這場戰爭但是即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況今天也出現非常多悲觀的一個預測"},{"start":11484.665,"end":11511.573,"text":"更何況因為主委你不只是退輔委主委你也當過國防部長那很多人也講說今天你要去搞一個所謂的那個40萬的所謂的可視名利可是國軍的志願役人數6月以來近年創近年新低多數戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成這些所謂的現役跟所謂的志願役的這個編組跟編隊長期有不足的現象嘛對不對"},{"start":11512.093,"end":11535.739,"text":"您當過前面的幾個部會首長嗎?目前看比例是比較不一樣如果說今天我們的賴總統他的防衛計畫他認為說我們要把剛剛你講退出役官兵當作一個所謂的動員的主力那你覺得退出役官兵在未來萬一發生戰事他的所謂的戰鬥的那個力量強還是現在志願役的官兵力量強?"},{"start":11536.806,"end":11538.026,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":11571.124,"end":11582.382,"text":"主席、在黨委員、先進、列席的總行政組長、官員、會長、公務夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請我們嚴主任委員那也請我們池處長在旁代表協助"},{"start":11587.697,"end":11606.822,"text":"總委員好主委好 處長好 主委我們也相識多年了那我看到你就會回憶當年在莫拉克風災你那時候被稱為88將軍那時候呢協助我們災區很多雖然時隔這麼多年還是要再度感念 謝謝謝謝委員的支持尤其是我們在前不久遭逢強力颱風啊超過"},{"start":11609.73,"end":11618.734,"text":"這個40幾年前的賽洛瑪我們現在餘悸猶存特別彰顯當年您的協助我們民族珍貴在這裡藉此機會愚公於世謝謝兩位我肩膀的這個韌帶關節受傷要謝謝北榮的陳院長那那個"},{"start":11624.577,"end":11653.701,"text":"另外我要謝謝我們平榮我們的吳院長讓主委知道這次他的掛號費從150跳到降到100雖然距離民眾的期待有點落差但是普惠全部的就醫民眾給您肯定也謝謝我們未來農民醫院農民總醫院的體系持續的在全國各地支持照顧我們民眾的健康好不好謝謝委員但是我這邊有一些小小的心得我覺得我們的醫療技術都非常的好"},{"start":11654.266,"end":11654.386,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11684.502,"end":11703.544,"text":"提出要求一些相對應未來能夠有助於我們國家發展對外關係不要一次包袱都抖光了那個所有的技術都人家學走了得到了友情但是其他的注意相當有限希望你們能夠成為我們在新南向外交上一個堅實的技術後盾可以嗎"},{"start":11704.025,"end":11727.337,"text":"可以那我也希望說我們在場的榮總體系啊既然被其他國家所肯定那我們希望說能夠有助於我們國家在跟其他的外交關係上扮演一個另類的一個外交尖兵謝謝那麼接下來呢還是回到我們本席關切的一直以來兩個核心問題一個就是屏東榮總那屏東榮總非常辛苦那麼因為呢我們目前的醫護人員的"},{"start":11729.258,"end":11732.321,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11758.614,"end":11784.489,"text":"我其實我待會也會去委員會提同樣類似的意見其實總院長們都非常認真你們給的資源也黃多浪但問題是沒有人就是沒有人所以這些人要從哪裡來我們退伍會要跟衛福部共同來思考我這次的去開刀我真正體會到我們醫院裡面不是只有受過專業訓練的醫護人員還有很多的輔佐人力推輪椅的啦翻床的啦但我發現我們的醫護人員過勞"},{"start":11786.61,"end":11812.015,"text":"很多非核心的技術業務他們仍然要去執行晚上11點把你叫起來晚上1點把你叫起來量血壓那叫你吃藥吃什麼藥吃安眠藥開玩笑這不是這個意思就是說有些非醫護的專業核心業務我們是不是請衛護部思考一下有一些護理佐理人員讓他能夠進入到我們的醫療體系你覺得會不會退伍會也往衛護部這邊來反映總院長們支不支持這樣一個方向"},{"start":11815.787,"end":11836.688,"text":"主委他們都用掌聲了嘛所以你在部會行政院的時候要堅持要堅定請衛福部檢討我們現在醫療體系當中護理人員非核心專業領域以外的這些事務可以創設護理佐理人員的方式來協助他們因為目前這些推輪椅的其實也不是專業人力都是人力派遣"},{"start":11837.649,"end":11856.157,"text":"看護很多都是外籍他們也沒有語文溝通的能力只受過短短的訓練這都會影響到我們的品質那最後呢有一個時間上我要跟您請求就是處長來的原因就是我們的國軍退出役官兵其實呢目前有一類跟二類未達10年的這些目前是我們國軍招募人力的重點"},{"start":11856.917,"end":11873.799,"text":"但很清楚的他們被招募進來就知道在30多歲的時候他們要開展事業的第二村因此他們接下來第二村的職場的職涯的技能的訓練非常的重要那我給你一個提示就不用再多勞您回應了就是其實目前有一個職場非常缺人就是公共運輸的價值"},{"start":11875.424,"end":11899.731,"text":"公共運輸的價值其實目前我在協助這些客運車業者跟交通部去爭取因為他們需要的是離峰尖峰的人力需求差別很大我們的退除役官兵他退休之後他退伍之後他或許不需要全職的工作非常適合這種所謂的part-time的集中在人力尖峰需求的派遣工作主委可不可以請我們處長跟我們各地的就業部員們"},{"start":11902.628,"end":11922.194,"text":"不是宣導 要訓練 訓練而且不只是短一期的 簡單回答一下 佔一點時間跟委員報告 其實那個客運 大客車都非常的缺那現在有一個原因要跟委員報告 我們也去了解就是因為他受完訓 他要考照 這個當中要經過三個月"},{"start":11924.174,"end":11938.224,"text":"三個月的一個空窗期他要等待所以很多的我們退伍官兵有去受訓但是沒有辦法等這個三個月的空窗期再去考照所以他們都跑掉那我們現在要跟委員報告像國光科運局內來講他都主動來找我們那他們也知道這個問題存在這個三個月的問題他們現在非常釋出的善意也就是說這三個月我給你這三個月是哪個主管機關可以來調整的"},{"start":11949.192,"end":11973.454,"text":"這個是交通部好那很簡單我們就來找交通部協調是好不好我找客運業者現在全聯會的理事長是屏東客運的董事長是那他的人力有代表全國的需求你們也來一起參與協調我請交通部來我們來協調讓我們的國軍退除役官兵在退伍之前他所習得的第二技能價值技能可以在他退伍的第二春的枝芽來貢獻我們社會是可以嗎可以主委請指示一下可以嗎可以"},{"start":11974.395,"end":11984.737,"text":"好 那就我未來再召開協調會的時候請退伍會 積極的來協助處理好不好 我們來跟交通部爭取 來跟衛福部爭取好不好我們會繼續協助好 謝謝 謝謝我們主委 懷念的88將軍 謝謝謝謝宗嘉斌委員主委請回接下來我們請劉詢廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":12001.65,"end":12029.511,"text":"好謝謝主席喔這個嚴主委有請有請嚴主委嚴委員好好主委喔這個雖然我們跟中加兵委員黨派立場不同有時候常常吵架但他剛剛提的喔讓這個退除役的官兵喔接受職業價值職業訓練這一點本性非常非常贊同我認為那是非常好的idea那我也提醒一下就是你退輔會也投資新興客運公司嘛"},{"start":12030.031,"end":12030.791,"text":"今天要談的是榮民遺孤的認養活動"},{"start":12053.142,"end":12067.394,"text":"緣起是本席選區的一個感人的故事這本席選區的選民就在這個退府會工作那他本身也是榮眷那當然就會響應這個退府會的這個既有的這個計劃那就就認養了一個榮民遺孤這一例認養就是數十年"},{"start":12071.818,"end":12100.066,"text":"到他成年按照規定你在認養的期間你是不可以跟他相見的因為這個會有倫理的問題所以這個遺孤一直都只知道認養人的名字但都不聞其人一直到今年已經28歲透過臉書找人感恩之旅一樣就找到這個這位認養人認養人就終於跟跟他們相遇認養的榮券跟被認養的人就相遇了約出來一起吃飯雙方見面吃飯過程其實非常"},{"start":12100.606,"end":12129.088,"text":"感動的那這是一個小事但我覺得這是一件很棒的事情本席也是榮民之後我的爺爺也是榮民那我非常希望這樣子的一個好的溫暖的故事能夠擴大來處理所以我現在知道退服會有沒有處長副處長級以上的官員應該都要響應政策嗎都有認養的習慣那當然大部分的認養人也都有榮民榮眷的身份請問這個主委知不知道現在這個被認養的榮民遺孤有多少人"},{"start":12129.861,"end":12153.256,"text":"我們現在目前被認養農民遺孤的577個人他每個月可以得到多少資金每個月認養金是3000塊3000塊對不對其實就是一個一般來講你有一點點餘裕的人都可以發揮愛心的一個很好的一個機制那請問主委知不知道現在我們當然希望這不是只是退輔會的事也不是只是我們榮影的事情對不對是希望社會大眾來共同參與所以說推動這個農民來做認養以外社會大眾的參與狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":12159.062,"end":12177.917,"text":"目前到9月份社會人士以及團體任養有1767個人次那捐款的金額是1145萬元那榮民券還有本會我們所屬以及我們自己的投資事業經理人捐款捐了1116萬總TOTAL是2261萬"},{"start":12181.658,"end":12181.838,"text":"公務委員報告"},{"start":12208.425,"end":12214.4,"text":"這個狀況是一直很穩定我們也都一直很持續的一直在踴躍的鼓勵社會大眾跟我們榮民榮捐來那樣遺孤"},{"start":12215.956,"end":12239.274,"text":"所以大概比例都是社會人士一半退伏會自己人的一半我們現在希望是什麼第一個總量當然越多越好那當然你退伏會你的人數是不會變的相對來講待遇也是不會變的維繫這樣的愛情很好但我們能夠做的事情是多找幾個這樣子的案例比如說認養成功的案例寫寫感人的故事做一做宣傳鼓勵更多人社會大眾來認養而且不要讓大家覺得說這只是這個榮民榮券去認養遺孤這樣子"},{"start":12242.296,"end":12258.311,"text":"指限於榮民這個圈子裡面的事情我們應該要鼓勵社會大眾好的案例對社會大眾好的案例要引入那第二個你按照這個數據算一下因為你剛剛有講這我們大概一年移國人數被鎮養人數577人一個月3000塊乘起來一年的支出是1300"},{"start":12259.872,"end":12260.693,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12283.354,"end":12283.474,"text":"是是"},{"start":12296.408,"end":12296.788,"text":"我們會在各項活動的時候來做宣導"},{"start":12319.75,"end":12320.21,"text":"謝謝劉許廷委員主委請回"},{"start":12346.482,"end":12351.507,"text":"蘇巧惠委員不在鄭振前委員不在吳思瑤委員不在高金樹梅委員不在"},{"start":12367.523,"end":12370.104,"text":"徐欣宜委員．蘇清泉委員．麥玉珍委員．邱志偉委員．"},{"start":12386.328,"end":12398.197,"text":"已登記質詢委員．除了不在場外均已發言完畢．報告及詢答結束本日會議有麥玉珍委員．邱志偉委員提出書面質詢．請列入紀錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩周內答覆"},{"start":12405.703,"end":12411.768,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束上會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:36:37 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審查委員廖偉祥等17人﹑委員楊瓊英等16人﹑委員黃建豪等19人﹑委員王玉明等17人及委員徐巧興等19人﹑分別擬據都市計劃法第83條之一條文修正草案案。審查委員林沛祥等20人﹑擬據都市計劃法第85條條文修正草案案。審查委員廖先祥等16人﹑擬據都市計劃法第19條及第82條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1995.603,"end":2018.983,"text":"其審查委員羅廷慧等20人女居都市計劃法第83條之一條文修正草案案決議以上個案均令定期繼續審查條文未宣讀通過臨時提案二案其他事項通過臨時動議一案主席宣告本案預計於兩個月內再次排案處理故相關經費請內政部儘量於一個半月內協調相關部會及地方政府辦理宣讀完畢"},{"start":2022.681,"end":2028.925,"text":"請問各位委員,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?無錯誤,議事錄確定繼續進行本日議程報告事項,請宣讀"},{"start":2036.297,"end":2038.518,"text":"語言並存地位．及修正台灣台語政策進行專題報告．並備質詢。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2065.618,"end":2082.667,"text":"本日議程所列報告事項合併詢答現在本席介紹在場委員以及列席的官員我們在場的委員我們有蘇巧慧委員李博義委員張志倫委員"},{"start":2090.151,"end":2117.807,"text":"那我們在場的官員有我們客家委員會的主任委員古秀菲主委還有副主任委員范佐明副主委還有我們原住民族委員會主任委員曾志勇主委以及文化部政務次長李敬惠次長"},{"start":2121.069,"end":2138.438,"text":"好,我們今天還有財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長陳邦枕好,我們接著介紹客委會的主任秘書廖玉佩好,綜合規劃處處長陳瑞榮語言發展處處長孫瑜清"},{"start":2150.216,"end":2174.683,"text":"產業經濟處處長江志成義文傳播處處長廖美玲客家文化發展中心主任何金良祕書室主任雷耀龍主計室主任林秀春人事室主任劉立貞"},{"start":2177.591,"end":2197.396,"text":"政風室主任 朱志明我們財團法人客家公共傳播基金會的總經理 莊盛宏原民會的教育文化處副處長 邱文龍原民會經濟發展處副處長 高文斌綜合規劃處專門委員 曾新中"},{"start":2208.562,"end":2236.283,"text":"社會福利處處長羅賀木路公共建設處檢任記政孟宗傑土地管理處代理處長張信良振豐市主任許碩珠文化部人文及出版司司長楊庭真"},{"start":2241.245,"end":2266.574,"text":"教育部中生教育司司長梁學正教育部國民及學前教育署國中小組的副組長蕭益智我們在場的委員黃建斌委員好"},{"start":2268.505,"end":2275.655,"text":"在我們部會首長報告之前本席要在此嚴正的譴責今天列席的各部會"},{"start":2276.994,"end":2305.796,"text":"我不知道各位是不是有看到我們開會通知單備註二請列席機關準備書面報告於113年10月7日中午12時前送120份至本會及盡送各出席委員辦公室一份這樣的一個說明我們內政委員會是10月1號就發文請列席的各部會10月7日下班前"},{"start":2307.457,"end":2321.645,"text":"中午12點以前能夠送書面報告我們這次排的這個會議議程安排比立法院各委員會都更提早也讓大家有更從容寬裕的準備時間"},{"start":2323.266,"end":2348.799,"text":"所以本期希望我們盡早通知行政機關方便行政機關準備答詢內容所以我們也希望行政機關能夠正向的回應能夠在指定的時間內把報告送達立法院讓我們各委員的辦公室能夠充分的準備質詢也讓各委員辦公室的助理他們不用熬夜加班"},{"start":2350.183,"end":2376.479,"text":"我們今天列席的部會、客委會還有客家傳播基金會、教育部都是到昨天中午才送達報告昨天是10月8號我們是10月7號要送達結果大家都10月8號才送達文化部更是昨天下午2點31分才送到"},{"start":2377.421,"end":2390.361,"text":"那我們原名會是到昨天下午5點才送到那如果我們提早通知開會那各部會也還是拖延到最後一刻才送達書面報告"},{"start":2392.005,"end":2393.887,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2410.962,"end":2437.432,"text":"整個很不好的這種互動的示範所以本人擔任主席我一定都會儘早排定議程我們也會儘早的來通知行政機關所以下次如果部會在無視指定送達報告的時間故意延宕本席會要求各該部會追究責任要請大家注意好 那我們接下來"},{"start":2439.11,"end":2444.334,"text":"我們請客委會古秀菲主委來報告"},{"start":2458.97,"end":2484.309,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位同事 大家早安接下來我再做右報告及答詢 全程就用客語來做報告主席、國會委員 太閣後聲明 貴委員會邀請我到邀請客家委員會主管人若夫提出報告 非常永恆"},{"start":2486.145,"end":2492.67,"text":"三、貼佩、感謝國會委員、關心客家事務的發展：：以及對本府擁有推動的支持。四、本府委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2506.148,"end":2518.352,"text":"負責行為、採用客家文化、推動客家企業發展．強化客家青年的公共參與．屬面的報告請參考．以後就請你來做報告。三、我們應延續出權主流化的精神．在傳承客家．為了補充客家出權．文化圈及實體圈．"},{"start":2533.553,"end":2544.524,"text":"繼續來推動國家客家發展計劃：一二十四年到一二十七年：年修也要促進出流法的核心精神：來發揮客家的行政效果"},{"start":2545.612,"end":2560.199,"text":"三、提供客家用口記來提供學法．來懲罰共學的意識．是否符合所謂的口記．二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2570.387,"end":2570.908,"text":"密密密密密密密密密密密"},{"start":2579.38,"end":2601.696,"text":"行為最新的新聞報道和詞彙的教學。三、今年九月底,我們國防協會在看討中央的行動書籍的檔案做到用、合法、實在顯現。做到用講的,也做到用講的。今年九月已經提供民眾來使用了。四、我們看到… 主委主委,不好意思。"},{"start":2608.08,"end":2609.521,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2635,"end":2649.564,"text":"所以沒有提供我們口頭報告的書面 因為一般有我想大家不是第一次來立法院的一樣的內容 那我們改進一下那我要跟著你跳因為太長了 這個報告太長"},{"start":2660.486,"end":2677.178,"text":"我在這裡說明我想各業務單位應該行政單位應該不是第一次來立法院立法院我們一般業務報告之外我們還會有口頭報告的順便報告方便委員們在你口頭報告的時候很快看一下你今天主要報告的內容"},{"start":2677.398,"end":2679.719,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2695.769,"end":2700.194,"text":"財團法人客家公共傳播基金會就有口頭的業務報告有提供"},{"start":2713.549,"end":2715.431,"text":"三、推動東洋行業導用法學習,提供不僅行業生涯學校﹑行業屬意教育﹑推頒全行業優異研。"},{"start":2729.367,"end":2739.678,"text":"我們每年每年一度促使,甚至於要成立行業社會強調的職業中心等等,也要透過各種各樣的方法來本身的做法提高場地度,同時來學習合法和客家文化"},{"start":2749.301,"end":2757.223,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2778.809,"end":2785.051,"text":"三、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2802.177,"end":2823.345,"text":"三、經營我們國泰及百力園市合作．推動客家文化發展計劃．以及推辦百貢政府展．都經營為自中共的成立五百一十七年的百貢政府展．中共替老年家和生育的窮客參與．多2.1億次"},{"start":2828.979,"end":2838.047,"text":"我們處理、種植、生育的意外．我們也侵犯、搶眼、供給世衛參與．我們同客委員、教育部、營運委員．共同來攀離海外搶眼、語言．引以的服務羊．以及攀離我們客家搶聲念、國際世衛訪問託．"},{"start":2853.083,"end":2867.583,"text":"也要在本、前面、在後上世界作為培養、過激光：透過跟國際事務、跨文化的交流：以及資源服務：來達到也要的功能"},{"start":2868.564,"end":2874.348,"text":"三、臺灣台語、文化部次長、教育部次長、教育部次長、教育部次長、教育部次長"},{"start":2892.807,"end":2893.588,"text":"三、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2906.348,"end":2928.678,"text":"三、臺灣大廈的黑色品牌哈佛．在行業、一般民間的社會．一般市民的身份地度．提供、研究、發展、創新、散品．及興業、廉潔．及培養和處理的人才．來參加國際賽事．還有明年參與客家的美食展．"},{"start":2934.845,"end":2960.352,"text":"盤利及民事秘書：希望臺灣也要設立董事做的本．及限顧有影響。第三點,我們推動企業的經濟發展．企業的建設．我們今年還提供推動的也要合作審法交流中心．所謂合作審法交流中心．我們提供跟傳統的分通中心、圖書館．"},{"start":2962.403,"end":2979.75,"text":"沿途重合、情緒、環境等等各種技能．結合之下．大致已適合所有人體和生活的環境．與繁殖及客家生活的文化交流重塑"},{"start":2981.271,"end":2985.475,"text":"三、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3008.696,"end":3020.701,"text":"其他創業與民間部隊組織合作做股東委婦工作。三、為教本提訪在地的協會叛逆。四、都在透過建築、藝術、設計等等﹐以客家族的歷史來展現出來。五、"},{"start":3037.082,"end":3053.358,"text":"我們在藝術推進方面：我們推工也在各種文化提升：也客家人應同提供童話劇：也在提防殺棄的樣子：也在傳統戲劇的演出：也在比賽：也在表演等等："},{"start":3060.205,"end":3074.264,"text":"一不出本提供沙灘及民間政府和學校．來創造多元藝術文化表現．包括會請客家和其新高國的運動．及合唱比賽等等"},{"start":3075.385,"end":3099.608,"text":"在臺灣農業生育方面：我們可以提倡客家的品牌：有的品牌透過跟無窮用的進業團隊來合作：在養殖、在開發、在作品、過去高容量的查檢：以及集合在跟客家天司、客家傳播基金會、農友合作的基金會"},{"start":3101.169,"end":3105.614,"text":"透過它的進一步發展．去開發新的體制．公司體制．在作品中．會透過宋家．和OTT的養殖營．串流平台．來打印注入的媒體．"},{"start":3117.981,"end":3118.923,"text":"三、客家旅行委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3131.856,"end":3146.909,"text":"合作及合法在我們主流社會內呈現．包括在日本的奧運．我們也提出一個行事的法律．就是我們的線索模結式也在奧運的法律．在北太空．我們強化出權保護管的功能．"},{"start":3156.298,"end":3173.73,"text":"過去以來,都以下我們一直推動文字保存及研究調查的工作。我們繼續修飾客家文物及文獻,都已滿貫重,已經有一萬五千兩千。"},{"start":3175.091,"end":3180.873,"text":"官場的電廠要簽署有920件,總共有12,000件除了電廠研究調查以外﹐我們也正合併要調查一整個律程法保護管的交流功能"},{"start":3193.197,"end":3205.277,"text":"要交流：不僅是國內的交流：是國際的交流：持續來到日本及立民族學博物館：做國際的交流的展覽"},{"start":3206.744,"end":3212.732,"text":"除了在國際的保管資源的交流展覽以外：我們也正合會採取的執念：曾經實施提念提供客家文化：就在根據所有研究調查的勝過："},{"start":3227.071,"end":3249.76,"text":"內間應提防的沙團．及鄉鎮公所合作．及團體合作．以推出、衝突、提言．合作歷史、文化及信任．透過用客家文化為主．以開發、發展．及繁建教育的課程．提供客家文化提言及教育法律．"},{"start":3251.158,"end":3258.66,"text":"二、我們對於公共的、強硬的、隱私的、創新的：企業的、國際的、民意的：客家的面相：若落實賴總統：客家六件的政策：以及我們的威樂也會成立：客家強硬諮詢委員會：希望作為黨黨合成的：上院：若奔擴導人：若隱私客家"},{"start":3279.087,"end":3281.108,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3304.962,"end":3307.723,"text":"主委請客家委員會主委聯同我們今天專題報告的來可以接續報告,謝謝好,森盟主席、森盟國會議員、金委員"},{"start":3328.973,"end":3334.816,"text":"內政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3359.258,"end":3366.363,"text":"二、客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3381.923,"end":3404.949,"text":"在國家語言正體內講,在1909年﹐文化部就完成業務語言調查在1910年﹐五年十四日﹐在波行政院審查,審查透過﹐文化部在1910年﹐主修改替白人國家語言發展編譯"},{"start":3407.95,"end":3412.874,"text":"後來添添的國家語言整體發展方案。根據之前的調查﹐各種語言的名稱﹐或因爲歷史的變化﹐語言使用的習慣﹐來擅長導用的名字﹐"},{"start":3429.366,"end":3432.268,"text":"若倒用的名字都有其存在的價值及意義若遵從國促權對於其該名稱的認定．"},{"start":3439.468,"end":3450.456,"text":"以及來批准各國民間的學術資料：一共有28種國家語言的稱呼。三、國家語言發展整體方案由文化部、教育部、人民費及本費來共同執行。二項方面應援有321億。"},{"start":3466.957,"end":3471.099,"text":"針對國家語言書面使用的規範：行政院提121年8月22日已經有內涵：內本所有的國普費：未來也在國家語言發展的其他書面：該參考國家語言整體發展方案的書面"},{"start":3488.763,"end":3492.925,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3515.769,"end":3536.356,"text":"兩位經濟文化部的調查．部分人說設計好路法為台語．名的設計案本非尊重各族群對於設計語言的稱呼．但是也尊重所有族群人對於其他族群人的稱呼"},{"start":3538.557,"end":3548.241,"text":"主張客家族群臣服、喉嚨族群．那些表現到臺灣保養、獨眼的價值。一百一十三年﹐六年二十"},{"start":3554.42,"end":3561.526,"text":"文化部也有訪問：來見識全面也要適用國家語言的名稱：所以頭先講的有限來適用以外：還有可以參照適用建議的語言：要建議語言有幾多種：包括臺灣台語、臺語、臺灣面南語：臺灣漢語、漢語等等："},{"start":3583.182,"end":3605.888,"text":"各種名稱：在內：各機關：也可依時求同語言的反應：來適用各個語言發展法所列的各種書面建議用意。故所亦可以講：是一個開放的態度：就不為意可以使用每一種語言：每一種語言都可以使用："},{"start":3611.573,"end":3622.482,"text":"所以讓語言的名稱有它的歷史性、文化性：最近有叛逆歸多重的規格語言論壇：我們為修飾國防的意見、納入、政策的參考"},{"start":3629.58,"end":3641.232,"text":"最後：客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3653.22,"end":3658.926,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3676.574,"end":3702.15,"text":"國族群的語言文化要從相互尊崇及理解和共同來發展．經過從其的共同、理解、爭取與共識．其他國家可以來正視與語言傳承的危機．正合國族群的理論、特價來互相合作．來振興推動本土語言的復振"},{"start":3703.206,"end":3721.496,"text":"感謝各位委員、每一位委員各位對客家事務的關心：繼續來支持本市推動各方的客家事務：以送報告向各位委員職高、聖母、安之社、羅蘭、杜恰好,謝謝谷主委接下來請原民會曾主委志勇報告"},{"start":3741.532,"end":3760.666,"text":"主席、各位委員還有我們客家還有研閩會各位同仁大家早安以下就本會對這個專案這個專題報告做一個最簡要的比較簡要的報告那麼在"},{"start":3762.847,"end":3789.665,"text":"2017年我們的臺灣的原住民族語言的這個發展法他在6月14號公布來施行那麼這一條法開宗明義就講希望能夠更多的保障原住民的語言然後希望徹底的翻轉了這個臺灣原住民的語言的一個確定性那麼它可以說是"},{"start":3790.766,"end":3808.638,"text":"成為第一個就是說確定臺灣原住民語言是國家的語言的一個法例然後一直到了2019年之後又制定了這個國家語言發展法那麼這個國家語言發展法更確定了就是說更多的這個這個機會更多的這個"},{"start":3814.429,"end":3833.509,"text":"更徹底的規定了臺灣原住民的這個語言要運用、怎麼樣運用、怎麼樣來實行那特別是在2022年制定了這個國家語言的這個發展方案在這個發展方案它更是預注了更多的這個經費"},{"start":3834.93,"end":3847.75,"text":"在原住民族的這個保存原住民族的語言還有在擴大原住民族的這個活動方面給很多的機會還有在原住民族語言的這個族語認證還有"},{"start":3850.674,"end":3875.706,"text":"對原住民族語言的這個友好環境比如說對這個希望各原住民鄉的這個代表會也好鄉公所也好他們的書寫甚至以代表會的這個環境可以用口譯來直接來進行這個用自己的族語直接來開會甚至以公民的書寫都能夠得到很多很多的幫忙最後在這個"},{"start":3882.75,"end":3905.184,"text":"這個對這個臺灣台語這個議題來講我想我們各族群在這個方面我們相信各族都有各族的歷史性跟文化性而且這個這樣的一個議題也是透過我們行政院召開邀請很多的會議做的一個決定那麼一樣的在嚴明會的立場我們"},{"start":3906.704,"end":3922.994,"text":"對這樣的一個議題是競表尊重因為各族有各族的歷史性而且還有它的文化性至於它要怎麼樣被稱作什麼樣的語言在原住民的立場來講我們是尊重以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝曾主委接下來請文化部李政務次長進會報告"},{"start":3937.182,"end":3963.117,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、大家好今天很榮幸應大院內政委員會之邀．就臺灣台語 名詞是否符合國家語言定義．是否侵犯台灣其他語言並存地位．及修正台灣台語政策提出報告並備詢在此代表文化部．感謝各位委員對文化施政的鼎力協助與支持以下報告內容敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":3964.247,"end":3987.365,"text":"語言是文化的靈魂．語言也承載了文化．失去了語言．也就失去了文化．過去不當的國語運動政策．導致了多數的本土語言．面臨了不同程度的傳承危機．為了挽救語言傳承的危機．同時也因應國際上人權理念．推動語言文化權的保障"},{"start":3988.286,"end":4004.328,"text":"在大院的支持下：在108年我國公布實施《國家語言發展法》依照《國家語言發展法》第三條規定國家語言細指臺灣各固有族群使用之自然語言及臺灣手語"},{"start":4006.39,"end":4032.337,"text":"臺灣各固有族群．就指的是既存於臺灣且包含各離島地區．並受國家統治管轄之傳統族群先做以上的說明本部依照《國家語言發展法》規定．在109年首次辦理了面臨傳承危機國家語言的調查透過室內電話及手機的訪問方式．共完成了大概7萬份的一個有效樣本"},{"start":4033.317,"end":4056.782,"text":"會政調查結果及相關語言學術資料在110年提出了《國家語言發展報告》說明國家語言的現況跟發展歸納了面臨傳承危機國家語言的種類以及提出相關的附贈措施根據這份語發報告目前各國家語言的種類包括有聽覺型的語言有6種包括了華語、臺灣原住民語言"},{"start":4062.324,"end":4081.665,"text":"臺灣平埔族群語言、臺灣客語、臺灣台語、馬族語．還有一個是視覺型的語言．是臺灣手語．並經研究單位比對聯合國語言的活力指標．除了華語之外．我們其他的國家語言都屬於面臨傳承危機的國家語言．"},{"start":4082.726,"end":4092.637,"text":"為了使政府機關能夠順利推動相關的語言附贈工作：我們在這份報告裡面提出了關於口語名稱：還有書面建議用語等兩種建議名稱"},{"start":4095.714,"end":4121.032,"text":"名稱的部分：我們彙整了各種民間自稱：還有學術的資料：共歸納出有7類28種的國家語言稱謂：那這個部分：就尊重各界在口語上：可以自由使用那書面建議用語：就族群和諧：還有尊重多元文化發展的角度：我們用並列的方式提出了這個：面臨傳承危機語言的一些書面建議用語"},{"start":4122.293,"end":4137.759,"text":"依照國際人權標準．還有聯合國的各項決議．還有主流國家近年來主要的採取做法．都建議應該所謂的民從主人．尊重使用者的自稱的原則．以表示對該族群基本人權的尊重．"},{"start":4138.379,"end":4154.921,"text":"有關臺灣台語命名的理念．依照本部的語言調查．因為大部分使用這個語言的使用者．他們的認同80%都自稱為臺語．可是又基於兼顧各族群．不想被排除在臺灣語言之外．"},{"start":4156.483,"end":4172.56,"text":"還有尊重各族群對語言的自稱這兩項原則：所以本部在《國家語言發展報告》上面就提出了總共用並列的方式有6類12種的語言名稱那同時行政院在111年8月22日合訂了《國家語言發展報告》"},{"start":4177.505,"end":4193.75,"text":"並含釋為展現國家語言推動的一致性．未來國家語言發展報告或其他文書資料．應參酌國家語言整體發展方案書面用語有關的規範．優先使用臺灣原住民族語言．臺灣客語、臺灣台語．馬族語及臺灣手語"},{"start":4198.211,"end":4216.764,"text":"後來經過行政院再繼續持續召開機關的研商會議：又補充了書面建議用語的使用原則：應該先尊重既定法令的用語名稱：比如《客家基本法》、《原住民族語言發展法》所使用之客語及原住民族語言"},{"start":4217.54,"end":4241.22,"text":"那所指的優先使用：是指的在同一文件中為求一致及整體性：這可以參照我們剛剛所提的第一組的書面建議用語那可視各機關人可視實際的需求：還有語言的環境：斟酌選擇使用國家語言發展報告中所列的各種書面建議用語"},{"start":4242.645,"end":4268.641,"text":"臺灣台語的命名是將臺語視為一個專有名詞：而非指涉臺灣的所有語言。臺灣台語是國家語言之一：它的地位跟其他的包括臺灣原住民族語言、臺灣平埔族語言：臺灣客語或是馬族語、臺灣手語都是同樣的地位：並沒有侵犯臺灣其他語言並存的一個意圖。那本部要再次的強調"},{"start":4269.501,"end":4296.483,"text":"臺灣台語、臺灣客語這等等都是國家語言發展法所保障的面臨傳承危機的國家語言同時我們也為了回應金門的鄉親他們希望能夠脫離臺語的範疇他們有提出希望能夠用金門話來自稱這個部分我們也會予以尊重在月底的語發大會當中提出這樣一個建議然後再討論能不能定案"},{"start":4297.984,"end":4322.237,"text":"本部將本於《國家語言發展法》主管機關的職責．協同各目的事業主管機關及地方縣市政府．秉持多元、平等、保存、發展之理念．全力支持語言的復振．語言傳承及發展．還有族群溝通與交流．懇請各位委員持續的鼎力支持．並給予指教謝謝大家"},{"start":4328.719,"end":4331.861,"text":"其他單位的報告請委員們自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前原例作幾點宣告"},{"start":4340.728,"end":4364.176,"text":"第一每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘上午12點截止發言登記臨時提案截止提出時間11點與本會委員詢答完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見"},{"start":4368.124,"end":4387.874,"text":"現在沒有意見 那現在進行詢答我們請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們請客委會谷主委好 請谷主委"},{"start":4392.19,"end":4394.731,"text":"主委,你好主委,你好主委,你好"},{"start":4422.122,"end":4439.667,"text":"再來我們再輸用華語．這樣不知道主委覺得可以嗎?報告委員還有主席．我接下來因為委員的要求．我用法語看主席采詩好,可以我是這樣想．確實這是因為歷史的關係你看我現在全程使用臺語．我也是可以只是我們剛剛在討論另外一條．一時間有點羞怕感"},{"start":4449.83,"end":4473.452,"text":"但我覺得語言最重要的就是要能夠使用並且活用所以其實今天我還是想跟主委來討論一下的其實是我們對客語的政府如何、狀況如何首先我想請問主委像您能夠這麼流利的使用客家話必定是從小就有學習嘛那如果你認為現在的孩子現在的孩子"},{"start":4475.874,"end":4487.177,"text":"到底是在非客家莊長大的客家人有客家血統的客家人比較會說客語還是在客莊長大的非客莊人比較會使用台語這是客語"},{"start":4488.929,"end":4492.251,"text":"目前我又講客語了沒關係啦其實我剛剛發現我都聽得懂還蠻妙的我試試看用客語啦好啊好啊在客庄裡面"},{"start":4507.823,"end":4512.766,"text":"事實上是這樣 為什麼 因為就是語言的關係我認為我自己本身 主委剛剛您的客語發言將近八成以上是能夠理解的狀況其實也是因為我有屏東這樣生長環境的過程我們在屏東有使用客語的習慣我的父母 我的父親因為工作的關係 客語非常流利 所以"},{"start":4530.638,"end":4533.079,"text":"我們在家裡也會這樣使用所以環境對一個人的學習語言其實才是最重要的所以我也看到其實是客委會在這段時間以來其實多年以來我們國家的政策就是一直在塑造家庭以外的客語環境"},{"start":4547.125,"end":4574.268,"text":"所以不管是課與生根服務計劃﹑課與沉浸式教學計劃﹑課與生活學校計劃等等都是在塑造環境沒有錯吧對不對主委那我想請問一下這個課與生根服務計劃你們現在的重點會是在你們的誘因啊或者是成效你自己的評價如何我想這樣就是課與生根服務計劃是我們跟縣市政府跟新船師一起合作"},{"start":4574.668,"end":4581.653,"text":"是跟縣市政府嘛對不對是所以說縣市政府舉辦起來會不太一樣好那您再說簡要的說一下簡要的說就是透過新傳師跟孩子孩子的課與生跟服務計畫對對要新傳師開課"},{"start":4592.56,"end":4614.233,"text":"開課要有孩子來學所以這個其實是有基礎長期以來在培養孩子的對,所以其實你們做了很多但我剛剛給你看就是您在說的這個課語班的部分我們發現這幾年以三年為例就好了課語班的開設學員是增加的表示有興趣的人是多的可是我們要怎麼檢核他們到底會不會講呢"},{"start":4616.274,"end":4638.346,"text":"需不需要來看看說這個班到底有沒有效呢那我想來想去能夠通過的一個方法是什麼就是有沒有去參加課語認證並且有沒有通過嘛所以我們再來看參加班學習班的人數增加可是去報考課語認證的人呢其實是下降的而且是今年是參加的課語考證的人數是近三年來一個新低這樣的狀況所以你對這樣的現象有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":4646.407,"end":4665.087,"text":"學習的人數成長但考照的人數下降因為考試還是有難度我覺得最重要的其實還是誘因你要不要原民會主委在旁邊問一下我們原民會的學生、原住民族的學生學生去考族語認證的有多少?幾成?"},{"start":4668.311,"end":4675.077,"text":"將近九成吧九成嘛 因為如果沒有去考他還會一直寄通知單來問你要不要考啊因為我孩子就是這樣啊對啊 那客家孩子有這樣要求要通過客語認證嗎沒有 沒有嘛那為什麼要這樣子呢因為 主委可以 原民會主委謝謝"},{"start":4684.284,"end":4704.67,"text":"所以為什麼會這樣就是考到這個證照到底有沒有作用這個證照之後到底可以帶來什麼效益會決定了這一張證照到底有沒有人想去考講白了就是這樣因為事實上準備考試是一件很重要的事情如果我們今天在這裡跟大家說客委會的所有的這個服務同仁要通過客語認證"},{"start":4706.09,"end":4720.687,"text":"而且要是中、高級才能夠來客人會服務我相信這個考照的人數一定大幅增加所以剛剛我看到客人會同仁其實站起來的時候都是用客語回答非常感謝都以身作則都是會使用母語的"},{"start":4721.147,"end":4742.012,"text":"那再講更實際一點啦因為剛剛的這種法規一定不會通過因為大家一定會說這會影響到工作權等等好 那我如果這樣講我剛剛在跟李柏毅委員開玩笑啊那你如果立法委員要代表你的選區裡面有客家中的立法委員要求要會客語才能夠有參選資格這個大家一定去考啊"},{"start":4742.652,"end":4756.125,"text":"那也不要說這麼嚴重啦那如果我們用鼓勵性質我們不要用懲罰性質我們用鼓勵性質的啦所有要參選立法委員的候選人如果會講客語初選加10%要不要"},{"start":4757.287,"end":4773.493,"text":"要靠嗎?一定靠的啊!集隊靠的啊!你看我們每個人都一定會講啊!各位SUPERBOMB會給表演三個好朋友來：立法院、蘇卡菲、森文特卡、拜託特卡!超級會的!每一個人都會啊!對不對?所以這就是有用、需要用嘛!"},{"start":4774.213,"end":4797.718,"text":"所以我檢視了您今天的業務報告裡面其實在有用的部分我希望能夠再加強因為我的時間只有一部分所以我是提升第一個它的有用的程度不管是在考照、證照之後的有用或者是客語的有用是最重要的這樣非客家人也一定會去學第二個我也想跟主委分享主委,你有問過年輕人為什麼他們現在都在學泰語、韓語"},{"start":4800.014,"end":4815.233,"text":"一個潮流對啊 潮流嘛 就追星嘛我小時候也要學日文啊我還用波波夢在拼日文啊我也不知道我在唱什麼但是我就會想學啊所以是追星所以你能不能夠創造客家的民心你現在在影視圈有你說打造客劇"},{"start":4816.474,"end":4832.451,"text":"好,可是我覺得啦,我支持有客劇但我認為這個歌曲的影響力更是無遠弗屆當年有羅時鋒,所以現在所有的人都會生黑暗講那前幾年有羅文玉,所以大家又都抓了一句有寒來溜,是寶了嗎?"},{"start":4835.17,"end":4848.344,"text":"因為這個就是歌曲的魅力所以一個明星可以帶動的是更多尤其是歌曲類的所以我認為你在預算的分配上面其實可以是打造客語明星的部分可以再加強最後我還是覺得是從小親近是最好的"},{"start":4851.827,"end":4867.335,"text":"親近的意思是就算我這一時間一時片刻沒有把它學起來但我就是有這個基礎我就是有這個根底我其實再重新拾回來這個母語的技能其實是很容易的所以我再一次我已經在這裡多次的強調我認為客委會在補助客家社團的時候如果這些社團是有辦親子活動的應該要大力給予補助讓孩子從小能夠親近我認為"},{"start":4878.081,"end":4895.736,"text":"這是比你在學校開更多的班或者是你在這邊那邊做任何的計畫你寫了這篇通篇我認為就只有三件三個點是讓我們的母語能夠重新活在這個社會上最好的三個原則就是有用、夠潮"},{"start":4898.278,"end":4918.925,"text":"從小清淨就是這三點所以未來我也會秉持這三個原則再跟客委會做更多的討論我想客委會存在的目的就是維繫傳承客家文化所以我希望能夠從語言開始好,感謝委員,再同意要勸發這三點請客委會參考非常清楚易懂,謝謝好,謝謝蘇巧慧委員接下來請張志倫委員"},{"start":4935.256,"end":4942.647,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家早安是不是有請我們谷主委請谷主委"},{"start":4948.814,"end":4967.968,"text":"主委好上次我們見面是在新北市的藝名祭主委特別有到新北市來關心所有客家的族群本席在這邊先對您表示感謝也對您最近有來立法院很親特別來跟所有委員分享一下"},{"start":4969.489,"end":4995.672,"text":"客家委員會尤其主委新的這個114年度整體的預算有些來說明本席在這邊對你致上敬意感謝委員英國也很愛英國的座位接下來本席要來請教這個主委的部分就是說第一個要請教主委就是現在我們這個客委會有一個叫做客家文化重點發展區的部分那客家文化重點發展區是根據客家基本法第6條的規定"},{"start":4997.493,"end":5000.797,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5017.653,"end":5046.433,"text":"網站還是一些媒體上有特別來去排名就是說客家人全臺灣最愛涉及的區域的排行前10名的一個部分那這邊本席要跟這個主委報告的是這前排名天20名的部分有10名我們這邊有打勾有10個打勾的區域現在就是因為他的人口沒有到達三分之一可是他的人數是多的所以已經佔了二分之一的這個"},{"start":5047.753,"end":5052.216,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5068.904,"end":5087.274,"text":"全這個鄉鎮區的比例．可是沒有以人數的多寡．來做一個相關的這個．可以照顧更多我們的客家族群．是不是我想說．這個部分是不是請這個主委．未來這個標準的部分．有沒有機會來做一個調整．以人數的方面來做調整"},{"start":5088.269,"end":5092.33,"text":"感謝委員 從前發展期那是所有的傳統、學衆的期位因為它更失蹤 故所謂的從前發展期沒有錯 委員說的沒有錯"},{"start":5106.144,"end":5111.307,"text":"學年、事業、不同的學種的所在、國度的：但是以分散：所以藝術委員會主事客家：分散的客家：,針對分散的客家：,我們目前為止：：無法討起天意與不同的學種：,目前是沒有的：,但是我們在政策當中：,對不同學種的學年："},{"start":5129.236,"end":5132.877,"text":"我們要去適用到政策運用的下渡藥品：沒錯,各位同仁,我們要注意到目前我們所使用的方法就是透過學校、砂塘及客家的鄉親去接觸內藏語言文化的法通藥物、傳承藥物提供阿天那間的地圖是甚麼?"},{"start":5154.782,"end":5171.723,"text":"主委不好意思那我要針對接下來第二個問題齁我大概理解您的說法齁就是說第一個就是說以這個客家人聚集多的那第二個當然本席希望說人數多的你也要來考慮喔是不是多來照顧因為我要疊到第二個問題的部分就是說因為它這個如果是"},{"start":5173.024,"end":5179.369,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5193.539,"end":5220.248,"text":"所以本席也是希望說臺北市、新北市應該也要來多設一些這些博工這個發展區因為博工發展區有非常多的好處不僅有親子之間的一個互動我相信對文化語言的傳承就像剛剛巧慧委員講的大家要更親密因為像我本身我小時候其實那時候我在學校沒有講台語可是我的阿嬤常常跟我講說就是叫我要學閩南話要學台語這樣才能跟她溝通拿點零用錢"},{"start":5221.508,"end":5222.549,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5239.788,"end":5242.731,"text":"感謝委員 委員說到這點 目前我們有在討論要在國台上判例包括不可以在三十八以上的客家提起 要感謝委員的建議主委 謝謝 我大概理解您的意思 我們就一起共同起來努力"},{"start":5256.983,"end":5258.544,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5285.024,"end":5293.61,"text":"客家的輸入法以及後端資源的資料庫：大概花了客委會多少的經費：以及現在的使用人數、下載人數大概是多少?"},{"start":5315.044,"end":5344.185,"text":"差不多有三千五百三下載當然沒有多所以我們要做那個宣傳跟那個APP要宣傳出日本他當然要了解好 謝謝所以我要跟主委報告的就是說第一個這個已經花七年的時間了不管是一開始APP建立跟後面的資料庫是花了很多的人力跟物力跟心力跟納稅錢那現在下載的人數還不夠多那本席這邊可以提供你兩個小小的建議讓你來參考第一個是它的輸入法"},{"start":5344.785,"end":5372.627,"text":"其實不是那麼容易去轉換如果你現在使用這個我經過一些使用者給我的建議現在使用這個輸入法以後基本上它只能一直用客語的這個輸入法去輸入它沒有辦法切換成其他種語言連英文都沒辦法去輸入所以使用者上是有點點的不是那麼的方便第二個它好像過去有個叫錄音功能的現在的我自己本身很多使用者也回覆我說現在錄音功能是無法使用的那個使用的"},{"start":5373.047,"end":5395.263,"text":"的那個功能好像是壞掉的所以拜託主委這邊就是已經花了那麼多時間人力物力這邊這個APP的部分一定要再精進一下好不好好感謝委員提供意見好謝謝我對我對客家委員會主委高度的評價現在我現在是不是可以請這個原委會的曾主委感謝委員好請曾主委"},{"start":5399.11,"end":5423.803,"text":"主委好不好意思主委請你上台時間的關係我是第一次有機會站在質詢台跟你請教現在大家都知道現在這個行政院114年度的總預算現在是在這個立法院院會被退回的這個情況主委應該非常了解這個情形最大徵提的點當然就是進法補償條例三讀通過可是這個這個委員會沒有編列應該的預算那我先請教主委時間的關係第一個"},{"start":5429.267,"end":5441.557,"text":"這個主委認為這個禁法補償每公頃應該補助三讀通過的應該補助6萬元的部分每公頃補助6萬元的部分就你主委本身也是這個原住民的代表你認為是否應當"},{"start":5442.878,"end":5459.827,"text":"我跟委員報告這個計劃補償是一下子從3萬變6萬請問你覺得該不該列到6萬因為你族委原住民的身份你覺得應不應該補償我是認為應該逐步啦現在3萬變4萬你的逐步是什麼逐步因為原來是從2萬然後變3萬我是說三族通過從6萬漲到3萬漲到6萬你覺得應該補助到多少"},{"start":5469.592,"end":5489.37,"text":"現在就是說我們希望就是我們預算有編到4萬那其他的部分我想我們是狀況啦好那我再請教一下齁當然昨天的總質詢喔卓院長特別在質詢的時候他突然脫口而出啦我相信應該是口誤啊他認為編到6萬塊是浪費工奴那你的想法跟他一致嗎"},{"start":5490.37,"end":5505.866,"text":"不是啦 不是浪費公帑所以你覺得卓院長是口誤是不是應該是 因為不是說還是說這是你私下跟他講好的 覺得這也是浪費公帑不是不是 就說是一下子變到從3萬一下子到6萬不是浪費公帑 就說這個是不是一下子進得太"},{"start":5506.486,"end":5532.691,"text":"太多了太快了這樣子在最後一個問題請教星期五大家都知道新聞有講要吃和解飯那請問一下就人民會的立場你們現在退回後有沒有準備要重編這個禁法補償的這個預算你們有沒有再準備了不然禮拜五吃飯要談什麼因為我們可以視狀況在基金的部分來看怎麼樣來做所以說你是不是可以你現在這邊可不可以提供你現在想的解決方案"},{"start":5533.53,"end":5561.824,"text":"我現在只能說就是我們已經有編到4萬那至於怎麼樣那基金這邊是狀況所以你現在沒有任何的想法沒有任何的解決方案嗎是現在是就有一個沒有任何解決方案我們公務跟基金一起來看怎麼樣來用但是我現在就是預算是編到4萬嘛那基金是是狀況可是法令三讀通過是編到6萬所以你還是堅持現在的預算的編列不打算任何的調整也不打算溝通基金是狀況嘛"},{"start":5562.944,"end":5582.413,"text":"是什麼狀況就是兩邊就是看怎麼樣也是看就是怎麼樣來怎麼樣來談怎麼樣來弄看後面我們已經有編到4萬塊基金是狀況這樣來調度所以沒有任何新的解決方案從預算被退回以後到現在沒有新的解決方案是是是好那以上好謝謝你謝謝好謝謝張志倫委員接下來請李博義委員"},{"start":5598.18,"end":5601.444,"text":"來請谷主委好 請主委谷主委"},{"start":5605.422,"end":5628.462,"text":"主委好在高雄市議會跟你質詢的時候我們沒有用過客家話今天帶著耳機來讓你用客語來回應我的這些質詢感謝委員謝謝我剛才其實一直在看這個我們一直想到一個事情"},{"start":5630.842,"end":5650.494,"text":"我們其實橋委會針對海外僑胞其實不斷的有在各個海外比如說美國或者是澳洲那甚至歐洲那不斷的跟這些我們橋界有一些互動那有一個"},{"start":5653.413,"end":5673.992,"text":"我自己小學的同學他們在國中的時候移民到澳洲但是我小學曾經跟他們回到他們的客家莊就是屏東某一個客家莊他們家的教育其實對我的同學非常非常注重客語"},{"start":5675.157,"end":5682.282,"text":"所以我這一代我的同學他40幾歲了但是他移民到澳洲之後澳見了他的小孩"},{"start":5682.93,"end":5706.164,"text":"他小孩現在是連國語都講得很吃力現在是我們連臺灣話也講得很吃力更不要說客語所以在這邊也想要建議客委會這邊是不是能主動的來跟我們僑委會這邊有一些聯繫如果僑委會在各個在尤其是在海外有相關的交流活動的時候"},{"start":5706.804,"end":5724.109,"text":"我們是不是客委會也可以派員去這個對海外尤其是客家子弟來講我覺得是一個非常溫暖那甚至可以跟他們交流看看他們的下一代有沒有機會有沒有機會再學習客語來主委你有沒有這樣的想法"},{"start":5724.349,"end":5729.05,"text":"好,感謝委員的建議,沒錯,要在海外天衣推或天衣推．要在韓國南學習．要在韓國南學習．要在韓國南學習．要在韓國南學習．要在韓國南學習．對,對,例如"},{"start":5749.516,"end":5772.4,"text":"臺灣也辦一些活動在他們最常回來臺灣的時間讓他們有學習客語的機會感謝委員提供意見我們也要奉勸我們能夠支持在客家基本法裡面我們規範什麼叫客家人臺灣現在我們這樣概括的來算的話客家民族應該有466萬人口佔"},{"start":5776.918,"end":5800.279,"text":"臺灣人口接近百分之二十我以高雄市為例高雄市佔客家人口最…客家比例最高的當然是美農但是客家人口最多的卻是鳳山也就是剛才蘇巧慧委員在講的如果說會講客語的話初選的部分要不要加10%也就是說"},{"start":5801.823,"end":5829.367,"text":"如果這個地區的客家人口多那我們要推廣相關的客家包含這個地區的公務人員是不是要有相關的這些會客語的這些人口當然包含語言的評鑑等等的這些我想這是科委會接下來要繼續努力的方向跟目標那接下來我請這個原民會主委感謝委員的支持感謝"},{"start":5838.288,"end":5861.067,"text":"謝謝請曾主委我可以不用戴耳機了好像比較輕鬆剛剛感覺好像在講外國話這個是我必須要檢討的客家話不好那其實現在主委是你有使用過CHAT GPT嗎還沒他這是一個現在年輕人最喜歡最慣用的一個APP這個APP我剛剛問他"},{"start":5862.898,"end":5880.026,"text":"你會不會講臺灣原住民語他講的說他會齁他大概有五種阿美語、泰雅語、布農語、排灣語、魯凱語那要怎麼學習我就問他我如果要學習阿美語我有什麼方法齁"},{"start":5881.141,"end":5906.817,"text":"哇,他列了好多種,我覺得可能會答得比主委還要厲害喔他說,參加語言課程、各地原住民、文化中心、社區大學、語言APP、網上資源等等的他有一共列了六、七種給我那其中有講到的就是我們原民會推出來的臺灣原住民語言學習APP"},{"start":5910.966,"end":5930.902,"text":"對,這個APP的使用上我們還是希望可以在這個尤其是園鄉我們的原住民的小朋友們的這個推廣程度我覺得園民會還是可以做相關的這些推廣尤其有一點"},{"start":5932.199,"end":5947.088,"text":"你要推廣這個APP你也要在原鄉裡面的這個相關的這些網路的設備跟地方政府要有相關的合作要去推廣進你有APP可是原民的小朋友有沒有辦法使用"},{"start":5947.768,"end":5965.938,"text":"他有沒有IPAD可以使用他IPAD有沒有網路可以使用這個其實都是建議原民會可以多把資源放在這一些小孩身上主委你有沒有這樣的機會我們願意這樣子來做啦有一些預算原民會增加的這一些預算"},{"start":5966.658,"end":5983.593,"text":"其實我們都希望它可以擴大給更多的原民來使用而不是單就一項比如說禁法補償條例提高當然很好但是提高整個提高的這些預算的額度到底普發"},{"start":5986.395,"end":5999.222,"text":"給進法的人還是說可以更廣泛的來推廣原民的相關的業務我覺得這是原民會主委你必須要去正視這一個問題尤其這個禮拜五可能是朝野"},{"start":5999.722,"end":6020.187,"text":"要針對進法補償條例這個預算來做相關的協商的時候主委你應該要有一套你的想法可以好好的讓我們這一場朝野讓明年度的總預算可以順利的來進行是有沒有想法好有有沒有想法有有"},{"start":6020.796,"end":6046.634,"text":"因為多出來的預算假如多出來我們可以做很多事情除了語言還有是不是對原住民的特別是像今年的奧運六面獎牌原住民就拿了三面那我們想說是不是這樣的部分我們也願意分攤一點體育部就是我們專對原住民的選手來看怎麼樣來從小來培養來運作這也是一個辦法很好好 主委請你加油謝謝"},{"start":6060.147,"end":6061.688,"text":"麥玉珍委員主席"},{"start":6081.921,"end":6092.065,"text":"好 謝謝我們主委因為我媽媽也是客家人每次去到她的村莊 別人阿嬤 你說我女兒在喊人對 所以問我 你說我女兒在喊人對 所以常常都會聽到這句話"},{"start":6099.705,"end":6117,"text":"所以今天我們要想來跟主委請教一下我們7月份我們的楷米颱風創造的我們的就是客家莊我們客家委員會就成立的"},{"start":6118.06,"end":6123.985,"text":"災害救助服務辦公室希望大家可以來諮詢、來申請補助但是這次我們的颱風來的時候我們就找不到說我們的客委會這邊針對這次的災情"},{"start":6136.892,"end":6137.974,"text":"行政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6148.097,"end":6150.899,"text":"有朋友再問,要請教一下。蓋米颱風落在世界營業更嚴重,所以我們馬上就成立要服務轉先,要轉先用合法服務天使、民眾一體所擁有的尊重的項目,包括農村、有的原住民,"},{"start":6174.396,"end":6178.539,"text":"應適的部署等等提供質詢．改天是填表格。故所謂我們提宗師有助．此我們看到．他沒有提撇在審理中．因爲宗師有要經驗．不過我們內地也在討論．要繼續以後的格式．有要填言在下．要來成立要負負準先"},{"start":6202.953,"end":6209.535,"text":"感謝馬委員和民眾的支持,我們願意以英國語記書做夢雖然是沒有成立,但是現在的災情也進步很多地方所以很嚴重,所以希望如果沒有成立,但是可以這樣比照辦理的話,也是對我們的收債戶有更大的幫助"},{"start":6232.644,"end":6247.253,"text":"二、客語是我們國家重要語言之一很可惜我沒有跟媽媽學到因為從小到大都跟阿嬤住在一起所以就講廣東話"},{"start":6248.618,"end":6275.824,"text":"所以這個部分在我們上一屆客家語言發展法：最後沒有三讀通過但我知道客家委員會一直在客語推廣都很努力今年客委會增加2000萬預算在客語上文化的宣傳希望進一步保障人民使用語言的權利也提高客語使用力"},{"start":6276.846,"end":6280.657,"text":"請問我們明年再可以如何推廣．讓我們更有一步的規劃"},{"start":6285.768,"end":6294.094,"text":"感謝麥委員 莫名聰有一年六十幾年一百五年有四十六趴一百一十年只有三十八趴：所以其實以那說下來：所以我們要透過各種方法：包括教育的方法：包括法律的方法：也提供地方政府合作：沙團的合作等等"},{"start":6313.57,"end":6317.032,"text":"最主要還是語言的意識,語言的意識要培養,即使語言的意識,但語言的創意也有可能,學習、語言留下來,所以培養語言意識,目前我們在創意做的,我們用的培養也有方法,也按我們目前的權利"},{"start":6339.222,"end":6360.989,"text":"所以我們也希望就是因為說人不親土親嘛因為語言上有溝通有聽到的話大家都覺得這個是很棒但是在另外我注意到就明年就是我們的實施的目標在跨海就是在國外因為我有去在越南也有很多客家他們也有成立"},{"start":6361.479,"end":6388.267,"text":"一個客家協會所以他們是在國外是有成立但是在國外成立是只是自己成立而已沒有立案所以在台灣這邊有沒有認同他們這個組織也可以協助他們的話是最好因為他們是在那邊是自己組織但是政府不准立案所以在台灣這邊如果能協助的話是這個部分"},{"start":6389.417,"end":6414.013,"text":"就是請我們主委多多要去幫忙所以看要怎麼樣在各個國家他們是組成一個組織的但是要如何去協助他們在地也可以推廣因為每個人都說要回來台灣來交流這個是有限但是在地他們去推廣的話才是真正的保留我們的文化這個部分所以"},{"start":6418.834,"end":6425.918,"text":"下一代的推廣才能叫做傳承,這樣主委有認同嗎?我認同貓鼻眼的說法所以最後想要請問一下,因為我們最近"},{"start":6434.443,"end":6450.615,"text":"很多在網路上都會看到說有一個新聞很多就是利用我們的客委會裡面的一些推廣的文化、民意希望在裡面工作還有在這樣子的當講師所以就盜用這樣子的照片、影片在網路就是成立很多的粉絲團"},{"start":6458.5,"end":6465.445,"text":"還有就是要怎麼樣去應聘這樣的詐騙手法現在有很多不知道這個主委你有沒有知道因為這樣對我們的長輩也好對我們想要把這樣的去學習或者想要把這個文化自己傳統的去推廣的時候就會被拿來這些資料拿來做詐騙這個主委你有知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":6487.936,"end":6490.977,"text":"我們在國土詐騙的廣告宣傳之中,我們會反詐騙。我們在國土宣傳之中,要跟大家說,我們要提供委員會提到,我們會為委員會做一個專門反詐騙的宣傳,比如說有可能我們要罵鬆,"},{"start":6514.105,"end":6515.446,"text":"內政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6541.684,"end":6561.536,"text":"好,謝謝主委,因為我們是客家人,我們都分辨不出來了專業的分辨,其他人就更分辨不出來所以說我們希望就是我們的主委這邊看有什麼怎麼樣去讓大家知道怎麼去分辨這個是真的是我們的委員會來去做"},{"start":6563.267,"end":6579.9,"text":"招財或者是廣告的招募人才但是要讓人家知道說這個是詐騙的這個部分我覺得是我們要要爭嚴議要怎麼樣嚴格的去讓更多人知道才不會被騷騙感謝委員的提倡感謝好 謝謝好 謝謝麥玉珍委員接下來請黃建斌委員"},{"start":6596.275,"end":6600.598,"text":"跟委員會報告 張宏祿委員詢答完後 休息5分鐘好 謝謝主席 我們有請顏銘慧主委好 請曾主委委員好 主委好 接拍接拍好 接拍主委 上週主委應該是從帛琉回來 去參加國慶是上週 上上週"},{"start":6626.002,"end":6627.564,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6640.862,"end":6642.183,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":6667.822,"end":6694.271,"text":"主委因為忍在國外參加活動：沒有辦法回來協助本席了解相信也很期待部會能夠到現場來協助本席在這個禮拜五會邀請相關的部會去災區來勘災我想這個攸關特別是在我們原住民地區的災或復原的工作這個部分主委請您務必來參加可以嗎?可以謝謝主委"},{"start":6695.831,"end":6716.335,"text":"OK 接下來我們要請教主委就是最近也吵得沸沸揚揚每次本席回到選區很多主委都問我就是進發補助這一塊我相信主委應該也聽到很多這樣的聲音那陳英委員跟主任長在施政總事選的時候討論到這個進發補償問題院長也公開說行政院會負責的依照過去的承諾編列支補貼4萬元"},{"start":6722.236,"end":6727.483,"text":"所以原民會會必須去再做內部的調解嗎?這個意思就是說不足的部分你原民會要自己想辦法嗎?"},{"start":6728.527,"end":6755.557,"text":"那你作為原住民的大家長我想主委應該要想好出國前就想好這個方法才對不過後來目前得知是要從原住民綜合發展基金來挪用那過去很多立委都提到原住民綜合發展基金長期來短促的問題那如果再持續的撥補進法補償的話恐怕沒有多久基金就用完所以進法補償是經過三讀的法定預算"},{"start":6756.809,"end":6782.177,"text":"他是要補償主人的土地不能使用所以給的經費那原住民綜合發展基金是為了要促進我們原住民經濟發展要協助主人在發展經濟這一塊這兩個是不同的東西是不能拿來作為補償的用途所以這邊本席強烈建議主委應該是持續向中央來繼續爭取那另外"},{"start":6783.609,"end":6785.01,"text":"對你們而言,什麼叫做臺語?"},{"start":6800.205,"end":6801.065,"text":"各位主委,你覺得什麼是台語?"},{"start":6822.228,"end":6843.567,"text":"在歷史上歷史風的演變還有牙齒目前失言提到說 台語、台語跟厚羅發、閩南語那是窮一種指向、窮一種語言謝謝兩位主委的回答其實這問題很簡單也不用太緊張也不用太政治化去看它本是認為"},{"start":6845.567,"end":6866.609,"text":"臺語就是臺灣的語言像原住民語有那麼多種有百萬、有PUMA、有AMIS有那麼多的語言客家話也有很多我認為它都是屬於臺灣的語言台灣是一個多元的社會臺灣是一個多元共融的社會我想不管是臺語、閩南語、客家語、原住民語都可以叫做臺語兩位主委是不是很懂這件事情"},{"start":6869.026,"end":6879.258,"text":"好路法、學法、原住民法全部在臺灣的國家語言、無問題的國家語言發展、國家語言法﹐其實就在香港的TV帝國。所以那個,有位主席有什麼回答我嚇一跳,我嚇到對不對。"},{"start":6888.189,"end":6915.53,"text":"因為其實本席在擔任鄉長的時候其實曾經看到現場親歷過這個畫面是有鄉親跟原住民說阿你要講台語嗎?然後那個原住民非常生氣地說什麼叫做台語?台灣語言叫做台語?我講的話也叫做台語才對所以我才會這樣問各位啦所以我想臺灣現在已經經過這麼多年族群融合的時候我想不只是我們講的民、男、婦叫做台語應該"},{"start":6917.351,"end":6942.769,"text":"所有這塊土地上的語言都能夠叫做臺語．所以也要請兩位主委．有時候真的要去爭取一下．要慎重考慮使用．不然是有可能會造成族群的對立的那臺灣經過臺灣這48個年來．經過長期的這個．族群上的．互相的競爭也好鬥爭也好．好不容易走到這一塊．不需要為語言來增加第二次的對立．"},{"start":6943.806,"end":6971.823,"text":"那謝謝兩位主委那我想在這邊再請這個客會主委主委那個客會要落實在總統的這個客家六支箭有公共、國際、飲食、青年創生這是非常宏大的國家希望工程本席也看到客會做很多推廣客語的活動像你們的podcast然後還有在不同平台像IG、臉書甚至在兒童舞台舞台劇都做很多努力還有客家大戲我這個台東鄉親非常喜歡"},{"start":6973.204,"end":6992.198,"text":"本席在6月13日 客會書面質詢時提到30歲以下 客語能力認證的通過率會達到6成主要原因是為什麼 客會的說明是說因為12到30歲 民眾在聽、說、讀、寫的能力約3成以下可能是因為12到30歲的人已處於語言學習階段總體來說 30歲以下民眾聽、說的能力較為不足"},{"start":7002.466,"end":7003.727,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7024.787,"end":7025.607,"text":"主委,其實本市覺得還有一個原因"},{"start":7052.555,"end":7055.096,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7078.036,"end":7100.496,"text":"目前能夠流利使用客語的人口大概集中在50歲以上的族群大概是93%那現在7、8是青年那很少很少我想真的能夠有這樣的客語背景真的不多那推廣的老師非常非常的重要所以在這邊是不是請主委跟相關的單位來從根本來解決失智的問題然後來推廣我們客家語"},{"start":7102.417,"end":7119.445,"text":"委員說的沒錯,我們認同提供合法真實的語言,形成實、形成就夠,我們就努力去增加它的量,用方法看法方法,我們就想方法謝謝主委,主委,那本期最後再跟兩位主委再次說明,臺灣是一個台灣的正社會"},{"start":7122.421,"end":7141.476,"text":"本席是閩南人．我的太太是阿美族．我的大嫂是客家人．所以在這個大家庭裡面．每個人講的話．這塊土地上的語言．都是屬於臺灣的語言．那謝謝兩位主委．那也謝謝主席感謝 感謝委員好 謝謝黃建斌委員好 接下來請張宏祿召委請兩位主委"},{"start":7153.692,"end":7179.048,"text":"請谷主委、曾主委主委我想請問一下我們現在是不是有一個推動客庄小招牌甚至無招牌運動那它是不是在新竹關西做示範"},{"start":7180.321,"end":7185.523,"text":"沒錯,因為董事正中有支持：所以就開始推動那你覺得效果如何目前來講,效果還不太好：因為要全面性：很困難因為要跟店家交通：所以要花很多時間"},{"start":7201.008,"end":7215.883,"text":"我個人是認為啦要推動保存一個文化保存一個語言或什麼的用一個小招牌或無招牌我真的覺得有很大的效果嗎主委你認為呢"},{"start":7218.219,"end":7223.442,"text":"他要跟語言沒有很相關：但以整個總體的景觀、體力、環境：整個本人的心態、感覺：所以其實景觀也是我們所存有的一部分：至於語言,我們有另外的方式來判斷"},{"start":7239.329,"end":7258.066,"text":"招牌什麼的我覺得那個是地方的特色而已那個應該是縣市政府去做的工作然後縣市首長他要怎麼發展他要什麼那是他的工作啊對不對我覺得這倒不是一個很重要的一個我們要去"},{"start":7258.946,"end":7265.092,"text":"用、花這一筆錢然後去做這個吧?你認為?我們真的要去檢討,檢討可能是要運用的,要進行就是說,客家的其實語言文化還有要整個總統的就委員說的,縣市政府、鄉鎮公所念義的祖母,我們可以去檢討,去討論"},{"start":7281.469,"end":7303.71,"text":"好 你可以再思考一下那為什麼請兩位主委一起上其實我覺得我們不管客委會或雲民會我們這幾年來不管是電視台、電台或什麼的都辦了很多活動做了很多那有剛剛很多委員也在講什麼語言或什麼的"},{"start":7306.252,"end":7323.63,"text":"臺灣有很多的地方其實客家人跟原住民他們是生活在同一個地區的同一個區塊的對不對 有沒有 有沒有 有啦齁比如說你們認為哪裡有"},{"start":7325.251,"end":7325.551,"text":"我不是要考試我是要那個"},{"start":7342.601,"end":7359.569,"text":"你剛剛說的東勢、董事、然後跟谷關那邊就是客家人跟原住民都蠻多的地方那你們有沒有想過你們有客家電視台、有原住民電視台有什麼的"},{"start":7360.989,"end":7384.375,"text":"這個是活生生的這是現存的那我們要保留文化要脫離廣語言你們有沒有想過合作就以東勢谷關這邊我們去弄一個小影集或弄一個小劇場用一個集集的這一種然後去一個故事然後"},{"start":7387.319,"end":7390.96,"text":"讓大家來瞭解：你們有沒有：你覺得這樣子可不可以：那是一個貴厚的教訓：因為：無論是土著名的總部、男部：都有：年初年跟婚姻：穿著那個衣服：因人的互動關係：互為主體的那種：我認為貴厚的一個建議：目前合理費也有做：它的歷史："},{"start":7413.829,"end":7421.072,"text":"書寫：書寫因為語言講的和節目：我覺得節目的風向：其實我認為是一個很好的提議這個是很活生生的只要編劇編得好或什麼的我覺得這個會引起共鳴然後呢：也會帶動地方的觀光總比你去做個招牌好吧我個人是這樣認為啦那個原民會主委你認為呢"},{"start":7439.821,"end":7459.182,"text":"是 因為我們也會有一點合作就是跟原客這邊有合作那希望未來的合作就剛剛那個委員講的其實譬如像屏東現在內埔鄉啊 屏東市都是也有原住民也有客家也有這個講台語都有都在一起很自然"},{"start":7460.916,"end":7486.663,"text":"我當然知道很自然我剛說的你們去合作你們有那麼多的資源對不對你也可以我說的你也可以有好幾個這個連續的你比如說我剛講的東勢谷關這是一個然後你新竹都市的郊區三層的都市化的其實有很多題材有很多可以去做啦我的意思是這樣我說你認不認同認同"},{"start":7488.755,"end":7490.376,"text":"謝謝張宏祿委員 我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":7528.301,"end":7531.684,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7561.649,"end":7570.232,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7588.774,"end":7609.788,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7614.344,"end":7621.206,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7657.196,"end":7661.718,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7681.354,"end":7701.865,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8255.835,"end":8258.556,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請徐宇貞委員謝謝主席我們是不是請客委會股主委還有原民會曾主委以及我們文化部的李次長以及教育部的梁司長"},{"start":8279.192,"end":8283.562,"text":"好,請谷主委、曾主委、李次長還有梁次長、梁司長"},{"start":8290.642,"end":8311.689,"text":"主委、我們的次長、市長大家好今天我想主要我們召委安排專報主要是針對這次臺灣台語所引起的爭議所以造成了很多不同的族群大家對於這個語言的問題有各種不同的看法那因為對於國家語言的發展"},{"start":8312.469,"end":8338.088,"text":"法制定主要就是為了推廣多元的語言希望能夠讓我們的母語能夠完整的保留而且希望能夠多多的推廣那語言的發展非常的重要所以說很多的這個文化的傳承我想谷主委也常常都提到說很希望說客家的語言能夠好的發展也是未來明年的這個不然今年明年的重點但是呢今天建議的地方就是文化部跟教育部把臺灣閩南語更名為臺灣台語"},{"start":8340.49,"end":8363.455,"text":"但是因為臺灣台語又很容易讓大家認為臺語到底代表的是真正的臺語還是臺灣的語言所以造成客家族群有蠻大的反彈所以我想請教一下文化部的李次長這一次針對這樣子推動的政策引起蠻大的爭議請問你有什麼看法"},{"start":8364.641,"end":8386.404,"text":"跟委員報告這個語言名稱的問題在我們111年的語發報告裡面就有正式的提出那這個語發報告要經過行政院的核定其實也經過非常多次的各部會之間還有各員團體之間的一個溝通跟協商所以名稱最後定為臺灣台語"},{"start":8387.785,"end":8411.482,"text":"把台語當作是一個專有名詞 台語做一個專有名詞：就是原來的閩南語：它並不是叫做臺灣：對：它不等於是臺灣的語言的簡稱：對：但是呢現在為什麼客家的族群：不要把它作為簡稱：會反彈這麼大：他就覺得這樣子其實：會讓人家覺得臺語可能就是臺灣的語言：那不然就是臺灣的語言最重要的一個部分：對,我們溝通的不夠：所以說造成"},{"start":8412.543,"end":8439.253,"text":"我們再來努力溝通所以包括說教育部的梁司長您現在幫因為我有聽到就是說你們是建議優先使用就臺灣台語或臺灣原住民語、臺灣客家語這個部分是優先使用可是我看你們的網站都已經改成臺灣台語我們在查詢的時候都已經改成這樣跟委員報告那其實教育部主要是因為根據行政院在剛才所講的111年的8月20號的一個"},{"start":8442.1,"end":8469.413,"text":"語法的決議還有大概在文化部就是我們語言的一個專責機關他們在今年的6月20號給教育部就是希望優先使用 他們寫的是優先使用嗎?是 並不是說一定要嗎?那為什麼你們的這個查詢的網站我看全部都已經更改成臺灣台語因為他建議是在書寫上面書面的書寫上面要用優先來使用這一些不是只有臺灣台語包括臺灣客語等等"},{"start":8470.051,"end":8485.35,"text":"所以教育部就是根據整個行政院的政策跟國家語言的一個我已經不太理解就是說為什麼要加上臺灣這兩個字因為我們都在臺灣那不管是臺語、原住民語、客家語"},{"start":8486.111,"end":8502.43,"text":"本來都是我們現在使用的語言那加上臺語就不會這個嗎因為我覺得看到因為我們很多都特別提到要推廣語言就是針對一些比較有傳承危機的母語希望能夠來推動那加了臺灣這兩個字就不會有傳承危機了嗎"},{"start":8508.178,"end":8522.93,"text":"是教育部還是文化部?是文化部就是因為剛剛講呆役他作為一個專有名詞之後我們擔心有的族群朋友會覺得"},{"start":8524.07,"end":8552.061,"text":"好像被排除在臺灣之外所以我們就會提出在名稱上面大家都是臺灣的語言目前看起來好像加了臺灣這兩個字之後反而引起更大的反彈剛剛有特別提到就是可能針對客家族群現在的反彈是最大那請問一下谷主委針對這個部分您會怎麼來去您是不是覺得這樣子是不是適當然後會不會覺得這樣反而會讓客家族群會覺得說我們自己的語言沒有受到尊重"},{"start":8552.941,"end":8558.99,"text":"我希望我們能夠了解客家作為一個所屬的族群是要本應黨的道、共的道、尊崇所以客家族群"},{"start":8568.744,"end":8569.305,"text":"社會社會社會社會社會社會社會社會"},{"start":8593.726,"end":8594.266,"text":"我們目前還是在合併會在城府公安也在閩南語合併"},{"start":8610.991,"end":8614.813,"text":"臺灣的合法行為．以這個部分還是希望．建議用語．是不是主委．針對這些客家的族群．能夠好好的跟他們溝通．因為目前看起來．加了臺灣這兩個字．既然引起這麼大的爭議的話．那臺灣臺語、臺灣原住民．臺灣客語、臺灣這樣．"},{"start":8637.003,"end":8640.087,"text":"我們就在臺灣為什麼還要這樣子來去做這樣子我覺得有一個很大的問題應該要讀書出窮應該要去唐人的書書出窮的上院啦也要有準聰莫不錯 我也認同好 謝謝主委那曾主委你的看法呢 針對這個原住民的部分"},{"start":8655.885,"end":8671.412,"text":"原住民如果這樣講的話應該是最早來到臺灣應該是臺灣最早的語言那曾主委的看法呢我們因為這個是很自然的我們都是給尊重各族群因為原住民我們也是臺灣原住民就是多尊重"},{"start":8672.817,"end":8701.168,"text":"對 我是覺得就是加這個臺灣之後會造成這麼大的一個爭議跟困擾是不是應該我覺得教育部這邊也要再這個審視一下那另外就是我請原民會曾主委就是針對我們的這個禁法補償的經費因為就原民會沒有辦法補足這個足額的預算所導致的那請問一下原民會在編列這些預算的時候有沒有積極那個谷主委還有其他幾位可以請你們先回座 謝謝"},{"start":8702.268,"end":8729,"text":"在編列這些預算的時候有沒有極力的向行政院爭取跟委員報告我們今年編28.16億已經是歷年來編最多的一次那麼一直以來淨華補償的這個經費本席請教的是你有沒有積極的向行政院爭取應該是要這個淨華補償的條例有有那如果你有積極爭取的話請問是誰不同意這個原民會除了編取這一個相關的預算"},{"start":8732.025,"end":8759.326,"text":"因為我們就是說希望爭取就是主席總書這邊也來幫忙那如果是這個可以試狀況我們的歷年來我們的預算跟基金本來就是對等的來支應這一筆可是你現在基金目前大概只剩不到10億已經短出了67億所以你的基金其實基本上也是不夠的金額如果因為總的基金來講"},{"start":8760.768,"end":8768.824,"text":"還夠啦 還夠支應這個 如果是市政課金來的話支出夠 問題是基金請問的用途一般我們基金的用途是用在社會福利啊、經濟發展根本就沒有進法補償的這個科目啊"},{"start":8772.813,"end":8801.772,"text":"那要怎麼使用我們的收支保管還有這個運用的辦法確實有是可以來用來是哪一條是哪一條對第6應該是第5條可以用在進法補償的條例對而且歷年來已經大概有7、8年都是這樣那是不是會後請這個主委把相關的這個內容給我因為其實請曾主委要多站在我們原民的立場多想一想如果這個現在就不同意您編列這筆預算的是有誰"},{"start":8802.953,"end":8831.602,"text":"你也可以大聲說出來我們國民黨團一定做你的後盾謝謝那這部分可能麻煩一下因為現在這個禁防綁條例已經三讀通過本來就應該要編列預算那這也是這次為什麼我們會退回程序委員會不是刪除而是退回主要就是因為這本來就是應該要編列在預算裡面的支出那為什麼不編列進去如果你有很大的壓力你說這個行政院有誰不同意那我想國民黨團會做你的後盾謝謝"},{"start":8838.178,"end":8840.439,"text":"理事長,看這幾文件的重要性"},{"start":8868.981,"end":8888.93,"text":"來 主委 主委 也感謝你久接以來本席有跟你說到自己是對客家的經費的需要﹐也看到你們每天有的倒灑工 有的斷網﹐感謝 但在這個過程當中 我認為還不足"},{"start":8895.299,"end":8896.141,"text":"主席,您是否覺得還需要在嘉義市的客戶"},{"start":8903.306,"end":8913.19,"text":"活動?有需要再補充什麼嗎?來 主委來感謝委員 松枝委員有質詢：我的部分：也有跟我的同事說請我們多多替港藝師來攀客家的法庭：也要我們因為英國的照顧：就要照顧我們全台灣客家的部分：在港藝師部分：我們要努力"},{"start":8931.243,"end":8938.546,"text":"主委 謝謝因為我覺得大家互相尊重今天我們要講的就是我有我的語言你有你的語言因為我從小的環境都是差不多講台語這個台語當中聽到出來說一直對待一個地方是南部的孩子還是北部的孩子"},{"start":8960.055,"end":8981.494,"text":"會代表而已,沒有什麼排義所以說,我們會覺得說在這裡面今天有討論說我們要如何如何語言做得好所以在文化之平的時候我認為有一些雖然尊重不尊重但你要所有的族群的意見"},{"start":8987.279,"end":9008.658,"text":"大家都會活化開我相信今天不是跟客家委員會：我們的原住民：也需要去保存他們的語言所以在這裏面我們的文化這邊說實在你每一個族群每一個語言來消失的時候"},{"start":9011.749,"end":9015.293,"text":"有錢要補充的：所以說在剛才姐姐的委員跟你們提問的時候你們未來要怎麼去可以做好來加正式"},{"start":9026.84,"end":9035.864,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我現在想要做委員的時間先向委員報告一件事因為文化部所主管的是國家語言發展法這個方案在這個方案之下我們現在要保存面臨事端危機的這個是最重要的面臨的危機對因為有客議、原住民議還有臺議因為客議跟原住民議都有主管的機關在提倡、在保存"},{"start":9055.474,"end":9063.298,"text":"臺語、馬祖語、臺灣邱語這三項國家語言．同樣面臨集團的危機．亦沒有專門的單位來提供這個時針．所以文化部在行促時．我們要主管法定意外．我們要同時推測．包括馬祖語、臺語、臺灣邱語"},{"start":9076.445,"end":9087.795,"text":"所以在推測的時候當然文化部這幾年在行政院的幾次之下有編五年、三百億、總統四個部會到底來推測這個部署的意見文化部在做的時候我們客家鄉親就一直誤會說你們文化部怎麼可以單獨做台語而已我要跟大家報告文化部不是單獨做台語而已"},{"start":9097.824,"end":9099.305,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":9119.565,"end":9132.59,"text":"若要擁有臺語：擁有我們的母語：都要有一個較好的環境：不是只有在教室內而已：所以要對家庭：要讓他回家看電視：或是聽到公報：或是他在APP內：有更多更多的母語：所產生的這些：文化藝術的活動：這是文化部所來：會跟我們客委會：原住民委員會：及其他的管理政府到底來拍拚："},{"start":9146.756,"end":9153.36,"text":"我是覺得要做更生動的像我們的讀書館裡面你如果去設一個可以跟任何的族群的語言的時候我覺得很好了讀書館包括小孩也好包括小孩也好都可以去那個地方所以未來的時候我覺得你們也要加強尤其我們的主委本身要自己探討的就是說"},{"start":9176.135,"end":9199.469,"text":"我們不管在語言的裡面是要有適用到、有外泊的地方有時候你跟我說像我們自己兩萬多個的客位但是實在說的沒有幾個你是要如何去鼓勵他們說我們的語言不是說"},{"start":9204.932,"end":9205.132,"text":"這是一個代表：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：：�"},{"start":9225.59,"end":9231.594,"text":"不是真的要追蹤一年、兩年、再再來我相信不是這樣是要有好客出來剛才我們的委員也說了為什麼現在人們要去學日記為什麼要去學韓語就是有一個覺得可以帶動他本身生活"},{"start":9249.649,"end":9253.133,"text":"有可能會錯誤,所以在這個風雲中,我們正式跟主委要改進,因為每一個族群、每一個議員,我們都要"},{"start":9262.591,"end":9267.795,"text":"不準,像台語、台語．我們當局以來就覺得說．台語的說就順順啊．台語、台語．不然你如果說閩南語．那台語怎麼說?正是．來,這句要怎麼說,來?蠻然義．蠻然義啦．這樣是不是也還不順嘛．是當局以來大家都說．"},{"start":9288.81,"end":9299.337,"text":"這位媒體很感興趣的都說台語的質詢,如果台語不準確他絕對不會說,這位媒體很感興趣的都會說,閩南語,他不會說這樣吧所以這個議案,你我互相,要大家加油,不準確,以上"},{"start":9315.705,"end":9319.187,"text":"好,謝謝王美惠委員接下來請黃婕委員好,謝謝主席,我們請文化部次長好,請李次長"},{"start":9344.727,"end":9363.054,"text":"好 次長好可不可以先請教一下因為我們今天討論這個其實是我們國家語言發展法以來就是針對台灣的很多重要的母語都都是平等尊重那我們發展的精神是什麼因為我其實有看到說我們在國家語言發展法裡面的書面用語"},{"start":9365.05,"end":9393.057,"text":"有一些文字那我們目前有列出哪一些書面用語呢在語法報告裡面的書面用語是針對有濱林傳承危機的所以總共有6個種類然後大概有12種那其中像譬如說客語它就是可以臺灣客語或客語那原住民語或者臺灣原住民語言大概都會有這樣子的一些並列那在臺語的部分就比較特殊它就是臺灣台語"},{"start":9394.618,"end":9397.66,"text":"臺語跟臺灣閩南語我們在書面建議用語上這個名稱有3個種類然後這種6類12種語言其實就供各個行政機關在書面用語的時候是情境來使用那當然我們有推薦優先使用第一類組就是包括了臺灣原住民語言"},{"start":9416.817,"end":9438.146,"text":"原住民族語言還有臺灣平埔族語言、臺灣客語、臺灣台語跟臺灣手語還有馬族語這幾個。這是最推薦的第一類族的實用語言。是。好。謝謝次長的說明。其實我要講的就是因為其實今天我們的議程的內容有問到說這個臺灣台語是不是有侵犯到其他臺灣語言的地位。"},{"start":9438.886,"end":9461.654,"text":"那我想應該答案很明確啦在我們國家語言發展法裡面就是要尊重所有我們臺灣使用的母語大家都是族群平等然後尊重所有多元包容那我也希望說因為這些都是我們臺灣人自己的語言那文化部要扛起這個責任讓所有的語言都可以好好的被保留傳承並且繼續發展好嗎"},{"start":9464.216,"end":9483.573,"text":"那如果真的有特殊有特別有哪一個語言團體或是使用哪一個族群的語言的使用者覺得說我們文化部做的不夠或者是覺得被排擠或是感受上覺得不被尊重那確實這個就是我們文化部應該要繼續努力的部分"},{"start":9484.013,"end":9510.768,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指導我們會繼續努力好 謝謝那再來我請教一下這個臺語家庭的部分因為 不好意思還是次長對 先不要回座因為在文化部2022年有公告我們國家語言發展整體方案那這個方案接下來會延續到115年那我有看到你們的專案報告那我真的覺得算是蠻肯定的包括說現在你們還有做一些臺語配音的動漫"},{"start":9511.568,"end":9537.835,"text":"像是派對卡口名稱還有這個spy family都是我很喜歡的動畫那你們嘗試著用臺語配音我覺得這個都是很好的嘗試讓他跟大家平常接觸的文化去做交流讓一般民眾可以更多的接觸這是跨世代非常好的溝通那我想知道的是因為其實你們的目標是要在2026年選拔跟獎勵出4萬戶的臺語家庭那我想知道的是你們離這個目標還有多遠"},{"start":9541.615,"end":9554.683,"text":"謝謝委員的提問然後也跟委員報告臺語家庭這個計畫我們從去年擬定這個方案之後其實一直在推動當中那麼我們目前有規劃出會分成兩個"},{"start":9556.344,"end":9583.763,"text":"階段來做第一種我們稱之為臺語學習家庭也就是他目前他不需要有任何臺語的能力可是他有心想要來報名參加我們臺語學習家庭的這樣子的一個策略的話我們就會先幫他登錄了以後會給贈送他一個臺語學習包讓他能夠在家裡有兩代以上看他們依照他們的年紀需求來選擇他們需要的一些讀本或者是繪本"},{"start":9584.904,"end":9608.316,"text":"如果說有一些家庭他已經有相當的臺語能力了那他也我們是希望鼓勵這些家庭尤其應該都是50歲以上他可能可以使用臺語的希望鼓勵這樣他要往下一代傳承下去能夠帶領他的年輕的這一代那這一類的我們會把它稱之為所謂的文化家庭那這個文化家庭我們除了一樣也會給他一些獎勵這種臺語的"},{"start":9610.417,"end":9626.924,"text":"他可能要更進一步學習的需要的繪本之外我們也希望鼓勵這些文化家庭具有臺語溝通能力的家庭他們能夠站出來更協助部門協助行政部門來推動臺語那這個計畫整個計畫我們在10月底的時候會公告然後會開始讓大家來做這個登錄那預計在逐年的就是到115年2026年的時候能夠達到我們的KPI就是4萬"},{"start":9639.409,"end":9639.669,"text":"臺語實驗學校"},{"start":9663.342,"end":9692.078,"text":"就在明年要掛牌了那我不知道說次長知道這個消息嗎我們高雄首先做了但是呢我希望的是因為其實中央也有相對應的政策那是不是接下來這個臺語實驗學校的這樣的計畫跟美意可以在各個縣市來遍地開花呢那當然我們高雄實驗所做當然有我們的用意因為其實高雄是臺灣算是百萬人口以上使用臺語最多的一個城市"},{"start":9692.678,"end":9712.887,"text":"所以我們也很希望說高雄可以扛起這個把台語的傳承做好這樣的角色那這是我們高雄的目標但是我希望文化部也應該要就是像我們高雄這麼的積極所以我不知道說我們現在有沒有一些政策是可以對應這個實驗學校另外我也要說因為剛好谷竹也在這裡"},{"start":9713.427,"end":9717.989,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9739.073,"end":9756.37,"text":"的確我是從公視台語台的新聞裡面得知這個訊息說我們高雄市即將要推出台語實驗小學那我記得當初這個新聞下面就非常多的我們關心台語傳承的朋友們就留言說多希望不要只有高雄有"},{"start":9756.93,"end":9782.863,"text":"應該要怎麼樣全國性的來推動那這件事情我們會持續再跟教育部這邊來討論怎麼樣在我們體制之內然後盡量的可以用一種所謂全臺語的授課其實真的臺語要走出除了生活以外要能夠跟知識能夠連結在一起的時候這個語言才能夠存活下來這部分文化部會持續的跟客委會還有原民會然後還有跟我們其他教育部一起來努力"},{"start":9783.503,"end":9794.475,"text":"我希望審預算的時候也可以我還會繼續問然後我會希望你們有更具體的一個方向說我們用了哪些預算來支持地方做這件事好 謝謝次長謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝黃婕委員那我們接下來請徐巧興委員"},{"start":9813.833,"end":9816.115,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們請谷主委。請谷主委。你好,所以非常關心這個客家委員會的預算,那也希望能夠替我們的客家族群爭取更多的預算,包含是在文化上面以及語言上面。"},{"start":9839.491,"end":9840.492,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9856.747,"end":9870.563,"text":"所以聽跟說都只會一點點而已那我覺得這是非常遺憾跟可惜的這也代表我們長期對於客家化在臺北市來說是給我們的學生、給我們的孩子是絕對不夠的"},{"start":9871.824,"end":9899.155,"text":"我們可以來看一下對於客委會補助各縣市的這個數據來說呢臺北市的補助金額跟平均補助的金額是全國最低的那當然我們在這個大型的有客家族群的縣市是最高這個我們是無庸置疑也絕對支持但是呢我們可以看到臺北市我們客家人口數也非常的多但我們的補助總金額呢"},{"start":9899.815,"end":9920.304,"text":"平均下來每一個客家人只平均補助到7塊錢而已臺北市有非常多很優秀的這個客家的文化包含是我們的藝名記等等的但我們的補助是全國最低那所以呢包含是語言包含是文化我覺得這是非常可惜的一件事情"},{"start":9921.024,"end":9940.447,"text":"所以近5年全國補助總額56億多．客家人口數460萬人左右．平均每個客家人受惠1212元．但是對比最多的苗栗縣13億．當然客家人口數多．可是我們平均分配到7塊"},{"start":9941.548,"end":9956.931,"text":"那相比其他的縣市．還真的是比較少了一些．想要先請教一下．那未來在臺北市的補助部份．有沒有提高的機會跟可能性?感謝齊委員若是法官．我又失敗了．在日本的臺北市．在部署的範圍之內．尊重對臺北市．沒有部署的．在臺北市的策略一定好"},{"start":9971.613,"end":9999.161,"text":"雖然說臺北市做不到輔助：但是我們也提供其他方法來輔助本臺北市：比方說像在學校：行議、行議的教學：教育Q：臺北市政府教育Q：有跟我們審查：我們有輔助：所以也要跟地方合作：地方政府合作：地方恩怨意提出來：地方恩怨意提出來：我們就會支持：包括我們也跟臺北市政府說：也還有行議家庭："},{"start":10001.222,"end":10002.243,"text":"請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10026.875,"end":10030.219,"text":"因為這是一個全臺北市的客家民眾能夠共同參與的一個活動那當然我知道全臺灣的疫名祭活動今年度的經費都有減少的狀況並不是只有臺北市發生可是我們希望的是全臺灣的疫名祭的"},{"start":10045.395,"end":10059.22,"text":"經費都能夠提高不只是臺北市的提高大家都一起提高包含臺北市也提高後來在我們的不斷徐宇珍委員的爭取之下臺北市的金額有稍微提高了可是呢我想要問的是為什麼各縣市的藝名祭的活動的經費要逐年減少這也相對應到我們剛剛講的客家語言的臺灣台語為什麼客家族群會這麼的反彈很大"},{"start":10072.904,"end":10094.31,"text":"一方面也是因為很多客家的經費：大家感覺到了：最近的這個藝名季的活動：客家經費的預算：好像開始慢慢地遞減：又再加上文化部的這個臺灣語：臺灣台語的訂定：當然會讓客家族群感到非常的恐慌：感到心生不滿想請問谷主委：在藝名季的活動編列上面："},{"start":10094.65,"end":10105.639,"text":"不只是為我們臺北市爭取臺北市當然要爭取但是臺北市跟其他縣市的移民祭的活動是否未來能夠在補助的金額上面向上提升跟委員報告移民祭的法庭新竹菸200萬那最高的所以一般來說對其他所有的菸絲的法庭的補償目前也要移民祭200萬以前都能夠到400萬"},{"start":10125.074,"end":10127.216,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10148.348,"end":10170.368,"text":"新竹也能夠提高、臺北也能夠提高那都提高的狀況下面﹐客家族群他們就不會感到相對剝奪感對於包含是所謂要不要定定臺灣、臺語這樣子的事情﹐就不會有敏感、就不會有衝突﹐他們就會覺得被尊重我相信新竹的客家族群、苗栗的客家族群﹐都會有同樣的想法"},{"start":10170.848,"end":10193.776,"text":"所以拜託我們客委會在相關的預算跟經費上面不只是針對特定的縣市當所有縣市包含是這麼重要的疫名季我們的預算跟經費都能夠往上提的時候我知道您剛剛說因為新竹最高200萬所以其他縣市不會再比它更高了這我可以理解但當新竹如果能夠是500萬的時候那其他縣市就可以是300萬啊那所以說我們希望的是共同針對"},{"start":10200.498,"end":10210.843,"text":"苗栗新竹台北所有的客家的預算我們要提高那對於苗栗客家的鄉親不只是苗栗因為我自己苗栗人才這樣講客家的鄉親來說當在講這些臺灣台語什麼臺灣客語等等這些詞彙的時候才不會引發各族群的衝突跟緊張這也是一種解決的辦法所以希望我們的谷主委"},{"start":10229.671,"end":10242.32,"text":"身為客委會的主委：一定要跟中央全力去爭取我們客家族群的預算：不只是議名季：還包括其他的客家預算拜託主委沈某感謝美燕明年醫生有選中：雖然有選中：但是醫生是固定的暗杜團體,每個團體都說我們不出特色但是醫生有憾所以還是要看醫生審查"},{"start":10258.532,"end":10283.992,"text":"總預算是有限的但是你們一定要向他爭取更多否則怎麼會以前大家可以申請到400萬現在最高上限是200萬呢我們主席一定對這個事情是最清楚的是不是這幾年的疫名季所有縣市的經費都是減少的情況以前可以有這麼多現在沒有辦法有這麼多那就是經費縮減了我們只是希望能夠回到原本的情況而已嘛謝謝"},{"start":10288.2,"end":10302.971,"text":"主委,徐委員說的,你是代表客家族群的主委,客家委員跟那麼多委員都不斷地在聽點,你應該要代表來爭取客家預算多一點"},{"start":10306.454,"end":10307.996,"text":"有行政院會議的時候你就要表達"},{"start":10326.052,"end":10328.294,"text":"謝謝主席 客家委員會主委有請"},{"start":10355.779,"end":10355.799,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":10385.379,"end":10406.925,"text":"主委早安感謝你委員安總好這今天有討論到這個所謂的臺灣台語的專案報告那當然嘛就是這個客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感客家人也是臺灣人嘛對不對那為什麼合絡語對不對被認為是就可以叫做臺灣台語那這個客家語它難道不是臺灣台語嗎"},{"start":10408.447,"end":10415.851,"text":"臺灣台語的名稱對日本時代都一樣 都可以這樣說我們可以尊重說好話的人說話的人自己也要發聲但是像我和那些客家人所說的所屬人要本人聽到我們的聲音跟本人看得到 也要尊重我們的意見所以站在我們的立場"},{"start":10435.02,"end":10437.906,"text":"來講,有的台語我們在講喉嚨話：所以我們非常強硬地去尊重有的在評定,台灣的國家語言在評定"},{"start":10447.089,"end":10464.678,"text":"我只是提醒這個我們主委就是畢竟你是客家等於是代表就是客家等於是最高的機關首長那這代表既然有些客家鄉親尤其在基層他的感受是受傷的必要的時候你要表達一下你的立場當然你可以講你也你知道複雜嘛在這整個這個行政體系裡面"},{"start":10466.265,"end":10488.231,"text":"動輒得救但是既然客家基層相繼有一些想法這我希望各位主委要守住自己的本位要勇於表達這是第一個那當然我們今天如果只談論名稱我覺得太可惜了因為比起名稱更重要的應該是環境我舉一個例子比如說新加坡這個主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎英文"},{"start":10489.201,"end":10505.229,"text":"其實不是 是馬來語喔是馬來語喔那它的官方語言你剛剛有講到就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度、塔米爾語這四種都是它所謂的官方語言但它國家 國定國家語言是馬來語然後它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文所以說"},{"start":10505.709,"end":10532.007,"text":"不管你的國家什麼國家語言啊或者是官方語言怎麼來做定位最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果所以流通的頻率是比較重要的新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題啊大家都講華語講英語他們的華語英語使用比例高可是相對來講他們馬來語使用比例就降低所以說這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標好那根據這個國家語言整體發展方案這個"},{"start":10533.968,"end":10549.53,"text":"主委知道我們這個叫做三代流失率啊,客家語的三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎?呃,抱歉,現在我,三、三代我不在,但是我在我們明年流失的比例差不多1.7左右"},{"start":10553.427,"end":10565.192,"text":"每年流失嘛 他的三代流失意思是說本來可以交給爸爸媽媽跟兒子女兒然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流 那個流失比例按照國家語言整理發展方案資料其實高達72.15% 72.15% 這個數字其實是蠻驚人的"},{"start":10571.295,"end":10593.504,"text":"那很多時候啊大家討論語言的時候除了討論流通性之外它也有文化資產的價值但那個通常都是到了很後面比如說我們今天也許談論部分比如原住民族的族語它已經幾乎要沒有了但它是很重要的文化資產所以今天文化部也來對不對那客語的角色就臺語大概三代流失比例大概是五成七啦客語到七成二原住民各族的族語已經到高達九成那"},{"start":10595.485,"end":10611.361,"text":"當流失的比例很高那大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策的規劃那我現在請問主委我們現在客家語的部分面對一個流失比例很高的一個情況之下我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境還是要乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理"},{"start":10612.839,"end":10635.055,"text":"當然 紐約議員所說的英國的前面的答案 應該要在那裡流通 增加 不能在那裡作為一個市的部署 除了部署還要流通當然還是要拼流通對不對 沒錯沒錯那現在拼流通的部分的時候 有沒有具體的政策目標"},{"start":10636.232,"end":10651.641,"text":"你可以講剛剛主委顯然有一套主委自己的數字就是說每一年流失1.7%對不對那明年的目標是多少後年到後年是多少有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失然後甚至變成使用人數增加客委會有沒有規劃一個相關這樣的政策的數據跟KPI"},{"start":10654.263,"end":10654.823,"text":"文化部主任委員會主席"},{"start":10669.809,"end":10680.675,"text":"多管齊下的所有方法都要做包括媒體、宣傳、教育、法律等等﹐要加捏、擬言、擁捏。本土教堂提醒要擬言的提為本土教堂認為有合法、說合法、有用、有好、提供意識"},{"start":10699.524,"end":10711.468,"text":"提高意識讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情不會覺得很奇怪然後也鼓勵各個家庭嘛像家庭這一部分其實主委就做得不錯嘛就我的了解你有兩位這個寶貝兒子對不對你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通"},{"start":10712.128,"end":10730.407,"text":"對嘛 對不對那他們講客語應該講得也不錯但我就要問主委啦除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外你有沒有問過他們就是說當出去外面的時候還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人他同學也好或者是他身邊的人交流有沒有一些這樣你沒有討論過這樣的事情"},{"start":10732.969,"end":10743.513,"text":"有確實會受到影響：但一旦有很多行為：例如我剛才說的合法：即是說以創合在客家的法律時期：一人就有幾費使用：故所謂合費：是攀陷人家的角色：角色跟人家的環境衝突出來：人家是人家最主要的：人家要做：人家太的環境要做："},{"start":10756.4,"end":10782.177,"text":"這個我非常同意就是說打造一個適宜客語的環境這是很重要的但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標嘛比如說你當然很多計畫比如說剛剛主委也有提到比如說客語能力認證啊資料庫對不對媒體啊辦辦活動什麼這都很好我們也都會支持但問題是這些活動辦下去之後這些政策落實下去之後怎麼樣把那個1.7%要變成多少主委心裡有沒有一個目標嘛定一個目標嘛"},{"start":10782.937,"end":10803.022,"text":"我們的目標是先點下去,先點下去,不再落下去,也要提一個目標,目標就是做到擁有法律、輕鬆、提高大概要多少的時間,現在是每一年1.7就是-1.7嘛,越來越少對不對,什麼時候可以回到0,不再流失,有沒有一個時間,比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標,有嗎?"},{"start":10813.511,"end":10829.338,"text":"我們希望這個每一年大家都要檢討我覺得每一年要有細的目標啦你有一個五年十年的大目標但每一年細的目標我們希望在預算審查之後可以清楚的交代讓我們可以追蹤 可以嗎好 感謝紐委員的建議還有各位基體的建議感謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝感謝好 謝謝紐委員"},{"start":10843.459,"end":10860.229,"text":"好,接下來我們請徐新穎委員諮詢。好,謝謝主席。本席請客委會谷主委還有文化部李次長。谷主委李次長有請。"},{"start":10866.17,"end":10890.806,"text":"你好你好剛剛我們牛委員已經問了我也是要問就是說我們客語是不是臺語嗎那我已經聽到谷主委的答案了你說要互相尊重對啊那既然互相尊重為什麼臺語就是閩南語就是Holo Voi"},{"start":10891.906,"end":10897.809,"text":"臺語、臺灣語言、臺語也是包含的各種語言所以這一個同樣問題請理事長檢答謝謝委員的提問再次跟委員說明臺語現在目前是被定位為一個專有名詞就是臺語好 謝謝 請暫停 請暫停"},{"start":10917.208,"end":10929.383,"text":"所以為什麼特別定義臺語是屬於閩南語或是所謂的holloway那你竟然在我們的國家語言發展報告特別提醒"},{"start":10937.219,"end":10957.06,"text":"是你們制定的國家語言發展報告提醒由於多數國家語言已經面臨傳承的危機所以若再加上語言名稱的爭議恐造成這些語言互相執軸更加速彼此消亡的速度"},{"start":10957.987,"end":10980.629,"text":"所以既然是為了母語的傳承政府施政就不應該引起恐慌更改名稱的急迫性並不是優先選項然後還造成族群之間的衝擊本席要在這邊強烈的代表我們客家鄉親、客家族群表達強烈的抗議"},{"start":10982.219,"end":11007.534,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望大家互相尊重當然定位名稱就是剛剛講的自稱我們民從主人的這個概念上也有很多的臺語的團體跟使用臺語的民眾他們希望他們的名稱能夠被定義下來他希望被定義但是這個定義"},{"start":11009.555,"end":11035.049,"text":"這就好比如果說中文的他希望定義我中文就是國語或是我客家人希望定義台語也就是客語那這個就會造成互相自軸而且族群之間的這種對立政府施政不應該如此那我同步我也要特別對我們客委會主委提"},{"start":11036.468,"end":11053.388,"text":"你是身為代表我們客家族群的這個最高的行政官員就是在我們客家客委會擔任主委要替客家鄉親講話互相尊重我們當然互相尊重所以其實我從小我媽媽講台語"},{"start":11055.671,"end":11058.634,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11072.552,"end":11089.989,"text":"我小時候台語就是閩南語講得不是很好的時候我阿金也阿姑也會講阿你那台語說不認同所以民間我們台語閩南語我們大概有這樣的俗稱沒有錯但是你在國等於政府你這樣強制的剛剛在很多的這個答詢裡面"},{"start":11093.812,"end":11111.558,"text":"你這樣強制的把直接臺語就定義你是這個閩南語其實這個是真的是很不恰當的所以我們要代表客家族群特別的來抗議好 接下來三號人員會的老主委在講啊你給客家的、客家委員會的主委啊暗度的客家的鄉親"},{"start":11119.841,"end":11141.557,"text":"臺語就能動不滿你對嗎?所以你要強烈的跟我們行政院：還有你跟文化部也要強烈的來溝通因為溝通,那些客家本身的民主好少啊但是我們的立場你要站穩"},{"start":11143.078,"end":11146.96,"text":"其實我們兩個名稱都是建議所以我們就用我們的公法、社法在寫兩個名稱所以兩個名稱在說我們目前因為是你怎麼在說話啦?怎麼在說話?臺灣台語要用的名稱怎麼在說話?"},{"start":11172.432,"end":11200.208,"text":"我想每一個群體每一個群體都要一起主宗我們年輕人要沙啡我們就分手你講的我就是全部地客家鄉親基督也地啊但是總得這個名稱上絕對不可以這樣好我接著要講也請次長在如果你這樣定義下去其實我們發現有的時候在私下甚至在學校同學之間"},{"start":11201.311,"end":11223.307,"text":"他說 你是臺灣人 那不可以說台語那不能說的台語是什麼台語是什麼台語所以你會造成族群之間的一個衝突嘛所以我們真的希望這個一定要審慎而且剛剛我看很多委員也覺得大家要互相尊重本席在這邊還要表達"},{"start":11225.663,"end":11242.976,"text":"我們我相信李次長、谷主委還有本席本身我們小時候小時候我們說的國語我們認為的國家語言我們的國語我們一定那時候就是認為就是所謂的現在說的華文中文"},{"start":11243.756,"end":11272.295,"text":"但是後來就是因為族群大家要平等不能把客語、臺語叫做方言不是,都是國家語言所以我們認同我們也尊重但是你不能現在對臺灣人我現在臺語我就是閩南語我就是喉嚨話不行啦我也是半個喉嚨人啊就說喉嚨話我媽媽也是我一半協議也是這樣所以基於族群"},{"start":11273.456,"end":11296.983,"text":"平等還有我們特別提到在這個過去我們國家語言發展的會議上北區、東區的會議本席這邊的資料客家族群的抗議聲音你們都無視然後就這樣通過然後文化部這一次客家鄉親最氣憤的就是"},{"start":11300.899,"end":11309.937,"text":"在這個原本多年以來的閩南語語言能力認證考試現在全部改成臺灣台語認證考試"},{"start":11312.915,"end":11337.556,"text":"那這個所有的族群大家都有意見我相信原住民語原住民的委員原住民族的這些原住民的我們的同國人還有我們客家族群甚至很多剛剛黃建斌委員他也代表著說閩南語的族群大家都不認同這種定義所以我們希望"},{"start":11338.59,"end":11345.655,"text":"能夠大家互相尊重。請文化部不要專斷專行。然後,我們請客委會一定要為客家鄉親發聲。臺港在你們的安保不滿,你們日常的創意,你們永遠都在面對你們的客家鄉親。臺港說你們的餐廳、廚房都在用,你們推廟室的客家鄉親,你們聽到嗎?"},{"start":11367.461,"end":11367.822,"text":"社盟委員會有強臺客"},{"start":11370.563,"end":11377.665,"text":"在內討論這件事：同臺價的上映：你的立場是臺價會負重贖罪：我的立場是臺價會負重贖罪：我就是贖罪基調：基調做不成本：客家人愛意結不行：原住民愛意結不行：你如果全部是臺灣的國家語言：作為少數的臺灣："},{"start":11399.611,"end":11406.955,"text":"臺灣的語言也會有合作．所以主委你的立場還不對還不夠所以我們大家不滿我代表的就是客家鄉親"},{"start":11419.962,"end":11424.165,"text":"臺灣不要窮人的喪音：我們就探討了：我們就為全國和臺灣一起討論不是討論：你要堅定立場好 謝謝"},{"start":11434.295,"end":11462.75,"text":"不好意思謝謝委員再給我一分鐘其實像剛剛委員所提到的在107年之前我們這整個臺灣社會對於國語的定義事實上就像我們現在說的這個語言是所謂的華語更精確來講可能就是當年的北京話然後也做了一些轉換可是在語言發展法之後我們現在對國語的定義它不再是國家語言的縮寫我們現在定義所有的臺灣固有族群使用的都是國家語言"},{"start":11465.591,"end":11488.878,"text":"所以台灣語言、台語不能夠只是閩南語我在這邊我要特別強調民進黨你過去你一直在爭取族群的融合你說轉型正義結果現在民進黨執政了然後就多數暴力多數霸凌少數我們不可諱言"},{"start":11490.954,"end":11513.072,"text":"所謂的閩南語的現在在台灣也算多數是最多數所以你既然掌握了權力結果你的族群平等竟然做出這樣讓大家痛心我要在這裡替少數的族群講話那既然如此按照你國語的這種定義你台語就要一樣的邏輯思維來定義才對"},{"start":11516.072,"end":11538.409,"text":"所以你不能台語讀後閩南語臺灣語言、臺語是我們共同生活在臺灣包含馬族語也是、原住民語也是甚至臺灣手語、客語、華語、閩南語都是這個HoloWave全部都是好不好好啦謝謝好謝謝徐欣盈委員下一位我們請林倩琦委員諮詢"},{"start":11557.787,"end":11569.076,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位立院同仁和相關部會的夥伴大家好那我是不是可以先請文化部次長好 請李次長好 次長好那今天就你們所謂這個引起大家恐慌的這個規定我來這邊跟您做個意見交流下一頁 謝謝"},{"start":11584.499,"end":11598.792,"text":"延續剛才徐昭偉所講的更改名稱的急迫性跟引起民眾恐慌這個區塊我想跟您先請教依據國家語言發展法"},{"start":11599.585,"end":11621.946,"text":"然後你們有了這些規定那我想請教一下下面有一個臺灣手語是臺灣聽障語人世間使用的手勢及視覺表現出來的自然語言那下一張 謝謝我想請教一下那全世界在通用的手語跟臺灣手語的差別您可以跟我指教一下嗎"},{"start":11623.243,"end":11645.296,"text":"抱歉委員這個不是我的專業我無法回答或者我們可以再提供請專業人士再提供資料那我想請專業人士會後有機會讓我們了解而且這是視覺語言你們可能不要用一個公文就了事所以我想要知道的是請問我們通用的手語跟台灣手語的差別在哪裡那接下來"},{"start":11647.233,"end":11668.841,"text":"你們剛才這邊有談到台灣的語言發展法我相信你們很熟所以這邊談到的這個自然語言、台灣手語那請問你講了台灣的範圍當你我們在講世界通用的手語台灣用的手語那請問台澎金馬的手語算不算台灣澎金馬的手語又跟台灣的手語差在哪裡"},{"start":11672.356,"end":11697.072,"text":"這個部分我們當然是要用臺灣來泛指牌棚金馬這四個區域所通用的手語我們都稱之為臺灣手語那因為這些人沒有辦法發言所以如果你在臺、台、台語這件事情上引起這麼多的爭議那請問這些無法發言的用手語的人他要怎麼跟你講我剛才講的這些東西"},{"start":11698.209,"end":11716.415,"text":"那是你覺得泛指啊但是你在講臺灣的時候我們看到的只有所謂的臺灣那大家空間的想像就臺灣島嘛 對吧在名稱的這個議題上我們一直都有跟廳長或農人協會他們多段的溝通是跟他們溝通以後他們決定的要用這個名詞在用的差別是什麼嘛這個部分今天請你回答"},{"start":11723.397,"end":11729.305,"text":"或是會後提供資料,好嗎?好。然後也做個參考。然後接下來我想請教一下,請問這個台,什麼意思?呃,我不懂委員的,您要詢問的。啊,那你告訴我下面一個台是什麼意思?"},{"start":11740.968,"end":11754.5,"text":"目前我們通常會就是剛剛那個臺字的簡寫那在你們的第7頁嘛第4個引起大家恐慌的臺灣台語第一個臺是我們講的繁體字的臺嘛第二個臺是簡體字的臺嘛那請問我為什麼要用簡體字的臺來代表臺灣我的問題有兩個第一個臺灣然後再來臺語請問這兩個臺的差別在哪裡"},{"start":11763.551,"end":11768.417,"text":"所以你還沒有跟大家討論臺語就是一個專有名詞了嘛那剛才大家各界在討論的臺語難道就只有你們所講的閩南語嗎"},{"start":11781.954,"end":11783.415,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":11802.998,"end":11830.564,"text":"那你們已經列了第4點臺灣台語請告訴我這個臺跟那個臺的差別所以你如果說是專有名詞在我們都還沒有共同認同這個臺的時候它已經是你們認為的臺啊那我一直很confuse這個臺跟另外一個臺有什麼差別好接下來齁來再往下來那個次長要不要試唸一下RexRix不知道你說Rix嗎齁然後接下來這個"},{"start":11833.837,"end":11836.119,"text":"文化部次長講的我這講的其實是另外一個更大的議題然後接下來下一張"},{"start":11859.075,"end":11859.876,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員"},{"start":11881.348,"end":11903.064,"text":"你怎麼會被他們都帶著走我們羅馬拼音不是這麼唸的呀所以次長我要指出來的問題是上個會期你以為我在質詢原名相關的議題所以你唸都不敢唸那我想請問一下原住民的系統是用哪種系統"},{"start":11905.351,"end":11934.646,"text":"語言的系統?羅馬拼音好,那臺語呢?你講的閩南語呢?我們目前在教育部裡面有四種表達方式有四種表達方式嗎?所以你,來,剛才那一頁你是不是唸一勾啊勾,對不對?然後主委,其實我們羅馬拼音是一桌一桌啊中間就有很大的差異這是我要指出來的問題你在語言教學的系統,你準備好了沒有?我跟你學的系統是很接近的啦"},{"start":11935.782,"end":11950.628,"text":"所以我要學族語的時候呢還很大的障礙所以教學系統這個系統的完整性、多樣性不是你們講說今天我要這樣子做就可以做的啊大家很多困難啊所以我延續剛才我們召委講的"},{"start":11951.528,"end":11965.673,"text":"那你們臺語已經先界定它成專文有名詞再往下齁那請問那我們臺灣原住民語齁請問臺灣原住民族語言跟臺灣平普族群語言是什麼意思一個是民族語言然後一個是族群語言"},{"start":11966.613,"end":11983.365,"text":"你可以告訴我他們的差別在哪裡嗎這個部分是原住民委員會建議我們用這樣子來定名的你是主政的這個單位他們這樣子講你難道沒有研究到我剛才講的那麼多議題嗎好接下來請問你說得出來台灣這16組嗎好時間關係我們不要講了一下那這16組如果"},{"start":11993.717,"end":12018.31,"text":"你把閩南語當成是一個語言叫臺語那請問我是不是你如果一定要把臺灣關上去臺灣澳美族語、臺灣泰雅族語、臺灣葛馬蘭族語、臺灣卡拉卡拉夫我們為什麼難道你們覺得我們的人少就可以把我們全部概括叫做原住民語嗎那大家知道我們有這麼多族嗎你們在解決問題的時候常常把我們當成同一族在處理跟解決原鄉不一樣、都會不一樣"},{"start":12020.982,"end":12043.194,"text":"語言的概念上是不是也應該思考：而且如果是如同部長講的冰違語言：哪些語言更冰違：所以不要引起我們恐慌好不好大家說說看你把它檯面上 檯面化而且很單一的一個取向我們民族情感是被多大的傷害謝謝"},{"start":12055.144,"end":12056.246,"text":"客家委員會主任委員"},{"start":12079.022,"end":12082.964,"text":"主委今天針對我們的客家語言我們從111年8月22號我們國家語言的發展報告我們參與國家語言的整體發展方案"},{"start":12099.632,"end":12122.738,"text":"現在我們的臺灣原住民語言、臺灣的客語、臺灣的台語跟名為台語、馬祖語還有臺灣的索語我們也知道我們針對說客家語言在這幾年會推動並不是很理想因為本市在這邊我也看到因為在我的選區"},{"start":12124.919,"end":12141.343,"text":"我用台語在我的選區我們的客家人比例是外來人口是最高所以外來人口最高很多我的選區裡面你說年輕一輩他們都也不會去講什麼客語有說台語"},{"start":12145.865,"end":12149.287,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12162.498,"end":12177.612,"text":"那是不是因為現在已經科技時代是不是可以用AI的翻譯這樣年輕人吸引年輕人我看這個比例應該還會再提高一點是不是請指揮來做說明"},{"start":12178.4,"end":12182.044,"text":"感謝吳委員,我個人與吳委員的說法,就是現在香港人用手機運用、縮短、方便,所以我們應該利用手機內建、擬人、帶業來"},{"start":12194.798,"end":12199.7,"text":"因此,我們經營經營的有一個內通：有一個內通就是行言的信義法：接下來就提到委員講的,我們當然會有一個翻譯：跟合法的翻譯的內通會出來：從日調都在提供本"},{"start":12214.505,"end":12218.327,"text":"所謂的學生和聖人：其實這方面做的是學習：也是為了行業：你從神法：比方說語言：教學：也在創造內容：做到的運用：所以客家的流動：其實這部分我們呢：你從神法提供：但根據從委員的說法：我們要求也在現時的沙非的變化：來做改變"},{"start":12244.798,"end":12261.971,"text":"好的 因為我們說我們現在說中文的人士還是比較多再來就是最大的族群就是我們台灣人台灣人的比例要再來到31.7但是在我們客語的比例是1.5%這比例還是偏低但是我說過去"},{"start":12267.375,"end":12293.18,"text":"我都是這樣說你說要讓他們去講客語就是我們現在的年齡層差不多60歲以上但是你在年輕的一輩在外面我們跟他們在一起的話很多人在講客家語言所以說這是未來我們要推廣你說到底要推廣你一定要有誘因包括說你一個客語的認證你認證"},{"start":12295.7,"end":12316.546,"text":"下來你這認證有什麼作用?有什麼福利?什麼誘因?人家會說想要去扣這認證所以說你要針對這一點,因為我們一些社團我來補助你,補助你,你要有多少的認證,我們才符合我們的資格"},{"start":12316.886,"end":12319.307,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12332.652,"end":12344.676,"text":"是否在誘因的部分我們要去訴求你說補助的部分就是來你這個社團你在推廣你有多少的認證我們就拿這個成績來給予補助"},{"start":12348.118,"end":12348.958,"text":"三、感謝委員會主任委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":12368.058,"end":12370.741,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12396.707,"end":12422.548,"text":"委員好 主委好 主委 再次的感謝你在我們三峽的客家園區旁邊我們的原住民部落現在已經都定案了但是他這個方面 我們的原住民這個園區我們有去會刊但是你要去廣納他這個裡面的建制一定要把它作為完善一點"},{"start":12423.929,"end":12436.946,"text":"會開放給我們社區的民眾他們都來參與我們投入這些錢才有用是 也希望這個附近的這個基金也都能夠用得上用得到"},{"start":12439.203,"end":12453.183,"text":"對,對,對,因為那個地方也環境,地理環境是非常的符合我們原住民還有我們的一些廣泛的民眾他們來使用,包含我們裡的他們的活動都可以廣納進來"},{"start":12454.505,"end":12477.88,"text":"因為在三峽在北大那個地方其實也沒有什麼一個很寬闊還有我們的園區裡面可以讓他們來做不管是舞蹈任何老人的活動這我們都要極力的開放給他們來一起參與好不好好謝謝辛苦你了謝謝"},{"start":12482.998,"end":12491.268,"text":"謝謝吳祈明委員我們現在來處理臨時提案共一案請宣讀"},{"start":12494.02,"end":12521.625,"text":"經查,原住民族委員會曾志勇主任委員於今年9月26日至10月3日以總統特使身份赴帛琉共和國出席該國獨立30周年相關慶典祭系列活動為履行國會監督之職責,臺灣民眾黨團於2024年10月1日行文請原住民族委員會提供曾志勇主任委員赴帛琉共和國之完整形成列表為原住民族委員會僅於2024年10月8日提供外交部兩份新聞稿"},{"start":12522.225,"end":12549.152,"text":"具不提供完整行程列表．亦無任何正式書面說明．無法提供之依據．執意隱匿規避監督．為避免政府預算遭濫用．請原住民族委員會、恰外交部．與一周內江曾志勇主任委員．赴柏流共和國之完整行程列表．及行程支出明細送交內政委員會．以落實國會監督。宣讀完畢臨時提案照案通過請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":12550.458,"end":12552.78,"text":"請張宏祿召委請麥克風提供麥克風不好意思 主席"},{"start":12571.431,"end":12593.094,"text":"我對這個內容提供我沒有意見但我覺得有一些文字我們是不是修一下比如說那個那個什麼拒不提供完整行程列表什麼我覺得這這應該把它換了因為那是要外交部提供也不是原民會啊我覺得不需要這樣啦那另外再來就是說"},{"start":12594.435,"end":12609.712,"text":"那個列表形成支出名氣送交內委會但以機密文件處理因為我覺得這也是涉外的關係我覺得還是要有點保密我們不是不給委員看但要有機密的處理"},{"start":12612.097,"end":12629.202,"text":"就本席的了解這個好像他們雙方已經有互相溝通協調過這個原民會主委好像也沒意見也簽名了那所以這個部分是不是如果原民會主委都沒有意見的話那我們請麥議政委員"},{"start":12630.902,"end":12633.623,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12654.514,"end":12664.178,"text":"我們的主委的行程要給我們他也同意所以說這個是我們已經達成共識了所以這個是沒有問題的以上報告本席這邊這個當然這個主委你確定齁你說一下你確定"},{"start":12677.028,"end":12700.857,"text":"私押 你確定 但是委員私押 你要不要確定不要亂講話 我哪有私押 這個不是私底下開玩笑的我不能這樣講 我反對你這樣講我們私底下開玩笑 你看我現在是在開會 你不能這樣說我私押 這樣不對喔我是委員 我是委員 我請他說明是我的權利啊什麼叫我私押 不可以這樣講啊"},{"start":12702.939,"end":12718.094,"text":"來請曾主委我們會洽外交部這個行程來提供但是前面這個是不是就不要我們沒有拒絕啦就是我們因為我是以特使的身份出去的是這樣子"},{"start":12719.946,"end":12730.69,"text":"不要再特使這兩個字了啦曾主委我知道你是特使啦好不好可是人家的獨立慶典是10月1號你幾號去的啊你告訴大家你幾號去的啊你26號就去了你知道嗎而且26號你們同行的也有副主委啊人家1號才國慶你26號那麼早去你要幹嘛你閉掉總質詢我還沒有請你講話"},{"start":12747.523,"end":12757.187,"text":"你要避掉總質詢是不是你避掉總質詢是要避掉進訪補償最大的問題嗎這是第一個第二個我還查了班機"},{"start":12758.939,"end":12760.901,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":12777.58,"end":12781.741,"text":"趕快盤點把你們覺得禁法補償、自愛難行、不足的部分再提供給行政院院長來參考你連這個你都不願意,你26號就去了你心中還有主計長在心裡面跟你講的話嗎?我可以講話嗎?還沒,我還沒請你講,對不起"},{"start":12799.787,"end":12816.407,"text":"更何況今天臨時提案上面講具不提供完整的行程列表我早就請原民會提供給我了你們就是具不提供啊這句話有哪一點不對再來請原住民族委員會"},{"start":12818.068,"end":12845.429,"text":"洽外交部於一周內將曾志勇主委赴帛琉共和國的完整行程列表及行程支出明信送交內政委員會以落實國會監督這你也同意的文字修正嗎你還有什麼意見謝謝你可以說話了我說我說前面這個我們願意洽這個外交部但是重點是我今天不是以顏明慧的主委出去的我是以這個特審的身份出去"},{"start":12845.936,"end":12869.794,"text":"而且我再跟委員說明他整個他是獨立30週年的系列的活動好啦我懂啦好啦我懂我懂我懂我懂我懂我懂你是特使你知不知道伯列總統那幾天在哪裡啊在台灣你特什麼使啊你就直接提供你們為什麼提早去跟誰去花了多少錢"},{"start":12870.715,"end":12874.259,"text":"有不能提供的嗎 這時候機密可言好了啦 你很大 你是總統的特使好不好我沒有說很大啦我知道啦 你一直要強調你是特使嘛我現在就請問你 你們找去幹什麼伯樂總統還在台灣 你們找去幹什麼是他們預先就安排一些國務部的拜訪預先 預先 你已經有副主委去了"},{"start":12891.997,"end":12895.28,"text":"你已經有副主委去了25號主計長25號主計長在我的辦公室已經請你趕快請問一下到現在你提供了沒有你的副主委在那裡你也去那裡你覺得這樣OK嗎"},{"start":12909.315,"end":12920.28,"text":"我不是以原民會主委的身份契的嘛那你現在是什麼身份我當時是以這個身份契那金髮補償是不是你主委的業務是啊對啊那為什麼主計處叫你25號趕快提供你也沒提供26號的總質詢你就避掉你這個不是避是什麼我沒有避掉這種事情開始比較大是不是原民會的金髮補償預算你根本就不放在心裡是嗎我沒有不放在心裡啊那很好趕快提是"},{"start":12940.246,"end":12940.907,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":12987.465,"end":12998.811,"text":"好 這個有請文化部的次長還有教育部好 請文化部李次長、教育部梁司長"},{"start":13003.055,"end":13031.861,"text":"委員好次長好這個原住民族語言發展法是根據民國94年通過的原住民族基本法我當時是擔任延民會常務副主委送到行政院當時的行政院文件會也在草擬國家語言發展法送到行政院討論"},{"start":13034.381,"end":13059.101,"text":"討論的結果因為這個認為說就定一個國家語言發展法就好 言明會的語言發展法先不要但是行政院當初沒有辦法完成是因為就是因為閩南語這個用詞當時有很多的主張說要用臺語"},{"start":13062.714,"end":13091.77,"text":"有人不喜歡用閩南語就是因為這個部分整個國家語言發展法當時沒有通過為什麼會有意見原住民族有意見客家委員會客家人有意見不能讀獲閩南語稱為臺語大家一般民間說了沒有關係但是你要成為法律"},{"start":13092.898,"end":13118.553,"text":"成為一個國家的用詞就要尊重各個族群你這樣是撕裂了臺灣的族群這個你可能不知道當時的言由是這樣好我當立委之後我當時就跟當時的文建會主委後來的文化部部長"},{"start":13120.425,"end":13148.199,"text":"前任的那個馬英九任內那個學者龍應台我說國家語言發展法因為閩南語、臺語的用詞被擱置那我們原住民族語言發展法先上路後來換成這個鄭麗君部長現在的副院長我也跟他協調他同意所以原住民族語言發展法就上路"},{"start":13149.656,"end":13175.012,"text":"第一條的第一句話原住民族語言是國家語言這是我唯一的提出來的條文當時文化部有意見連延民會的主任委員已降保也有意見我堅持後來通過了所以才有後來國家語言發展法我跟鄭麗君部長溝通協調"},{"start":13177.546,"end":13203.761,"text":"才有現在的條文國家語言一律平等國民使用國家語言不應受歧視或限制台灣的國家語言台灣的都是國家語言是這樣來的固有族群的語言都是國家語言那你現在脫度你用什麼"},{"start":13205.447,"end":13227.731,"text":"國家語言發展法的第幾條然後施行細則他是要針對濱嶺的族群的語言你閩南語有濱嶺嗎你用這樣的一個你整個報告根據國家語言發展法第幾條然後施行細則第幾條然後我就把閩南語稱為臺灣台語"},{"start":13233.621,"end":13260.529,"text":"每一個只要中文聽得懂的人臺灣語言的簡稱就是臺語這還用變嗎臺灣語言的簡稱就是臺語一般民間講習慣沒有關係但是你要成為一個國家的正式的用詞當時我剛剛講了歷史背景當時陳水扁總統任內"},{"start":13262.35,"end":13282.541,"text":"國家語言發展法沒有辦法通過就是因為不要撕裂族群不要硬強推閩南語成為臺灣台語的用詞所以 文化部啊我們臺灣的族群還要這樣去撕裂嗎教育部你們更可惡為什麼說可惡"},{"start":13295.171,"end":13323.589,"text":"你們的閩南語言的認證說費標準是不是已經修正了?什麼時候修正了?今年修正幾月幾號?不知道九月三十號你們依行政程序法公告、議告"},{"start":13324.571,"end":13342.489,"text":"要把閩南語語言認證的說廢標準這是法規命令啊這是法規啊你根據一個文化部行政合定的一個用詞你要去修法律、法規它是法規啊"},{"start":13348.885,"end":13376.23,"text":"你預告期間我問你那個同仁你協助協助說明預告期間有沒有原住民族跟客家族群建議你詢問你不可以不可以把閩南語修正為臺灣台語有沒有有吧有沒有正式的公文"},{"start":13379.943,"end":13407.008,"text":"什麼叫陳情本席依據依據行政程序法的依告有意見的不是陳情的用此錯誤你回去去跟那個法務部瞭解一下什麼叫行政程序法什麼叫依告那個不是要陳情的對於法規命令有意見的可以提出來"},{"start":13408.479,"end":13437.627,"text":"你們理都不理啊完全不理完全不理直接就公發布是不是這樣你們又把那個各各你們又把各族群包括立法委員最起碼我有正式的發文啊我有正式發文啊原住民族很多族群有提出意見客家也有你們完全"},{"start":13440.788,"end":13467.455,"text":"所以表示你對法規還是不了解要請你們那個教育部的法規會好好地指導今天這是法規違反國家語言發展法違反國家語言一律平等不應受歧視這個就是歧視"},{"start":13471.226,"end":13499.201,"text":"文化部這不是那麼單純的為什麼要去撕裂族群客家委員會、原住民族委員會也不積極所以這個部分我希望今天教育部來的成績非常低了你們回去好好的報告報告給部長 以上 謝謝"},{"start":13501.298,"end":13527.06,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請我們主委、客委會主委還有教育部、文化部"},{"start":13528.885,"end":13533.155,"text":"請谷主委、文化部理事長、教育部梁司長"},{"start":13534.761,"end":13560.779,"text":"是 我想我們本席我們一併討論是一個尊重平權的一個概念那這個我們原本就有我們的法規在2019年的時候公告的國家語言發展法第三條明確的規定國家語言是指臺灣各固有族群使用之自然語言及臺灣手語"},{"start":13561.719,"end":13564.16,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":13584.046,"end":13610.88,"text":"來讓他通過那請問在預告當中有人提出不一樣的見解你們怎麼做處置請做說明報告委員當然在預告當中如果有一些意見的表達我們就是會去做回覆做回覆怎麼樣不理之我就是要瞞幹我就要這麼走說明說為什麼會這樣做的理由為什麼這麼做的理由人家是不認同的難道我們這個政府就是你要想做什麼就做什麼嗎"},{"start":13612.498,"end":13622.522,"text":"這不是一般的政策這是法律定定之你來一個預告人家有意見你仍舊告訴他我為什麼要這麼做你有沒有考慮到我們的族群裡頭他認不認同臺灣這麼好的一個國家竟然連這一個都要把它撕裂這是怎麼回事啊怎麼的一個邏輯"},{"start":13639.281,"end":13649.455,"text":"你們麻煩的做再請教三位當人民看到你們在9月30號如此的作為他們的吶喊你們聽到了沒你們聽到了沒你們做好感想請做說明"},{"start":13653.707,"end":13665.113,"text":"請做說明我們有反映在文化部的國家語言範圍內就有增加客家的從詞所以我們有反映他的問題我們希望以後多多交通我們有反映他的事情還是依照你們的作為來"},{"start":13679.505,"end":13706.834,"text":"你聽到人民在那喊人民不一樣的意見 你在心裡做個感想謝謝委員提問 我想各個族群的情感都是政府需要去面對然後需要去安撫那這一些覺得有受傷的部分 文化部會持續在法令主管機關那邊多做的溝通我真的暈倒了 行政部門你自己還承認是有受傷"},{"start":13708.314,"end":13724.901,"text":"你整個我四個字送你啊獨尊霸權這不是國家語言法的初衷不是這樣子的你已經看到是有受傷你還去安撫我明明不需要你安撫啊為什麼要安撫"},{"start":13726.943,"end":13739.362,"text":"這種邏輯太奇怪了到底是聽命誰敢這麼大膽的做這種事情去撕裂我們所有的族群台灣最珍貴的民主自由族群融合"},{"start":13740.421,"end":13758.85,"text":"平權概念這是臺灣最寶貴的為什麼連你行政部門在執行都認為有傷害你還要去安撫這為什麼會如此的作為呢這麼貿然作為呢難怪我送你四個字叫做獨尊霸權我不知道是誰去做這樣的決定人民的吶喊這麼大聲族群吶喊這麼大聲"},{"start":13771.226,"end":13796.532,"text":"你們各司本職應當要提出你們的論點告訴政府一個政府是必須要橫向去聯繫去討論去探求明末怎麼樣讓我們的國家能夠更加的安定人民更加的有尊嚴這是我們必須要做的所以你們審慎去思維像這樣的一個情況"},{"start":13798.171,"end":13821.962,"text":"不只是獨尊霸權你還是扶老霸權從這兩三個月來地方所發出的抗議他們非常的卑微的一個要求我們只要求族群平等、語言平等這是我們所要求的而且是政府必須要做的你們再審慎為之再去討論"},{"start":13825.612,"end":13839.011,"text":"你怎麼樣安撫這一道傷口已經在傷口上灑鹽這不是我們所要看的所以你們審慎的將我們所發言的內容人民的心聲你要審慎為之"},{"start":13841.636,"end":13847.181,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":13860.493,"end":13885.353,"text":"相對於105年你提升了0.5 增加了14萬但是我們來看本市非常重視我們的客語想盡了一切辦法我們不管唱歌啊跳舞啊引起大家的注意引起大家的興趣我一直努力的在推動我們的客語那所以因此我們看到講客家語言的人主委反而是減少"},{"start":13886.494,"end":13891.658,"text":"你相對105年會聽的到現在從64.3%到現在56.4%會說的像剛剛我聽得懂但是我沒有辦法講所以我還在精進會說的從105年46.8%到現在38.3%你降低了8.5%"},{"start":13912.052,"end":13921.337,"text":"你使勁的告每一任的主委都告訴我你們要各方面洪荒之力全部下但是給我們的結果論是往下滑要怎麼做 請教主委感謝永議員沒錯 要二議員復正一定困難要困難真是要靠臺客的天數我認為合理非在各方面各兩位各個層次都"},{"start":13942.087,"end":13951.458,"text":"與我們的遺孫、幼兒體育所有方面﹐我們為法規度、精神體育的部分﹐再來,我們會透過內討﹐由年及年"},{"start":13956.563,"end":13969.356,"text":"字典內綁起內,即是說手把手,人人說手把手,一個一個帶,主要都會為港語語言的意識提供,即使像這樣,像這樣沒有語言意識,還是會影點,所以最主要還是語言的意識。"},{"start":13976.563,"end":13989.7,"text":"主委你現在回覆到這裡都是照原本的照本宣課你沒有提出你的方案你冷靜去想一想我們在地方上在辦的時候我們甚至以家庭式在辦"},{"start":13990.919,"end":14007.191,"text":"家庭式的歌唱家庭式的故事戲劇為什麼要這麼做我們希望一代傳一代一代傳一代讓家庭式更加的團結然後去發揚光大"},{"start":14007.691,"end":14018.023,"text":"你要去想方法而不是依照你目前你花了這麼多錢你一樣是下滑而且速度這麼恐怖就已經在下滑了8.5%了你竟然還來搞了一個這個這個讓人家沒有辦法接受的族群撕裂"},{"start":14026.803,"end":14043.692,"text":"太離譜了,所以主委我把這個功課給你,你要怎麼樣去推展,你把方案去想一想,多久時間給本席,你們的進行方案。我們繼續在兩禮拜那一本議案跟所有的報告。"},{"start":14044.753,"end":14071.911,"text":"教育、家庭、要服務、請人家去推薦的,這樣可以提供體驗好,你把這個時間點給我最後一個議題我再給你,105年你所謂的臺三線這個克中浪漫大道治理平台到了109年你再擴大所謂的369治理平台那你也橫跨了18個部會跟地方政府組成的客家政策國家隊"},{"start":14073.372,"end":14096.992,"text":"這也可以顯示政府對於客家政策的決心推動﹑給予高度的支持但是突然來了一個語言的撕裂﹑讓我們心很痛但是我還是勉勵﹑鼓勵政府必須好好去做我們的世界客家博覽會﹑去年66天有一萬一千人"},{"start":14100.194,"end":14127.084,"text":"我們非常地歡喜希望能夠再精進那麼在接下來你客委會對於整個推動客家語言的復振那麼文藝復興跟客家經濟的發展這些客家事務你要怎麼樣去創造在臺灣友善的社會環境我想這是主委你必要做的那你把精進方案給本席大概多久時間 告知本席請用 兩禮拜會提供好 你把它精進"},{"start":14130.786,"end":14150.344,"text":"最後本席還要再勉勵法令定制行政命令來一個預告民眾抗議民眾已經提出不一樣的論點你們各司本職的要勇於講出你們的心聲要不然"},{"start":14151.485,"end":14174.507,"text":"你們今天擔任的這麼重要的職務竟然是作為筷子手讓族群撕裂這是對不起我們的人民的所以我在這邊嚴肅的告知必須好好的去思維要怎麼樣讓我們的族群能夠有平權的這樣子的一個方陣這才是國家之福好不好"},{"start":14175.448,"end":14182.57,"text":"所謂的語言都在臺灣的國家語言我們建議不侵犯民意的都不侵犯不可能啦!就已經族群撕裂了還叫人家不要不可能啦!主委你好好去思考啦!謝謝我們不為議議的問題有選擇性的建議用法"},{"start":14204.255,"end":14211.999,"text":"主委要站穩正確的立場來謝謝楊瓊瑩委員接下來請張雅琳委員謝謝主席那我們有請文化部次長跟客委會主委請李次長以及谷主委"},{"start":14236.806,"end":14262.378,"text":"我想其實我自己是在厚隆出生厚隆其實是一個台語的它是海線我們其實講台語為主但是因為其實在我們那個地方如果你還要升學你到高中以後你大部分都要去苗栗市去升學其實大部分人到那邊都要講客語所以我小時候每次只要進到了苗栗市我都覺得好像到了另外一個世界因為我們要切換那個語言"},{"start":14263.218,"end":14291.663,"text":"所以我自己其實聽得懂大概六七成的客語因為在那個環境之下讓我有那個我覺得那個算是優勢啦我可以講台語也可以聽得懂客語這樣子所以對我來說這兩種都是臺灣非常重要而且非常珍貴的本土語言那也都是大多數人在那個地方生活的人會使用到的一個生活語言所以也是許多人的一個母語那長期以來其實我非常關注這個母語政策尤其是本土語言的附贈"},{"start":14293.399,"end":14313.13,"text":"所以我剛剛聽到說我們其他的委員說今天在講這件事情是一個撕裂其實我是覺得蠻心痛的啦因為我認為我們今天做這件事情並不是在做一個撕裂的動作怎麼說呢?我自己看到《國家語言發展法》的第三條裡面其實它是怎麼說的?它是台灣各固有族群使用的自然語言及台灣手語"},{"start":14314.691,"end":14335.13,"text":"所以這個法律文字其實展現了一個包容性就是固有的一個使用的自然語言就是我剛剛講的一個狀況那同時在國家語言發展報告裡面它其實在口語名稱還有書面建議名稱都有講尊重各族群對其名稱之認定及彙整各種民間自稱及學術資料"},{"start":14336.624,"end":14358.817,"text":"促進來族群和諧尊重多元文化的發展所以我想在我們的整體報告裡面其實都一直在強調一件事情就是民粹族人的概念這個族群怎麼去認定他自己我們都尊重那這個國家語言發展法提供了一個建議我想這個是客委會跟次長應該都認同我這樣子的說法跟解讀 對嗎"},{"start":14361.592,"end":14368.26,"text":"那同時我自己會認為其實台灣不管是任何一個語言我們本土也遇到最強大的一個問題其實是華語獨霸"},{"start":14373.199,"end":14388.566,"text":"華語獨霸是華語的這個過去這麼多年來的一個文化的侵蝕從教育、從文化各個面向造成了我們母語現在處在這樣子的狀況從臺灣台語來看我們其實只有689萬人而且這是2020年的資料客語更少只有32萬9千人所以其實我們應該是要團結"},{"start":14396.149,"end":14413.591,"text":"而不是在這邊一直持續的撕裂好像今天做這件事情就是撕裂族群我剛剛實在是有點聽不下去母語面對的狀況最大再強調一次就是華語霸權所以我們應該怎麼樣的來去積極從各個面向來去強調我們相關的母語的政策本土語言的推廣"},{"start":14415.267,"end":14432.168,"text":"那我自己看了齁就是當時我們在講氧氣這個字在台語其實是跟隨著日語當時的發音喔就是伸手那我想問一下齁就是我們其實因為語言會與時俱進嘛齁我們加上台灣台語其實是想要強調一個所謂的本土化嘛對嗎我想問請教次長"},{"start":14436.098,"end":14453.778,"text":"其實臺灣台語當然就是剛剛講是因為固有族群在這個地方自然發展出來的所以因為我們曾經有荷蘭統治或者是有日本統治然後到國民時期所以這個語言它其實已經涵蓋了非常多種不同語言的來源而產生的"},{"start":14454.438,"end":14474.242,"text":"對 所以其實呢我們今天強調這個所謂的臺灣、臺語或是什麼之類的其實都是在強調一個屬於我們本土發展的一個脈絡嘛那我想請教客委會主委我們的客語有沒有隨著日本時代或是荷蘭時代等等而流變產生的客語的語言用詞上面有融入本土化的色彩呢"},{"start":14474.702,"end":14481.35,"text":"有,合法的共用、歸導的用語或用外來語、外來語或其他族群的語言、歸導的變化都是有影響嘛,對不對?都有說到外來語的影響那我想就是說,我們這個當時台灣"},{"start":14490.822,"end":14507.822,"text":"因為在日本統治時期其實是積極的吸取西方的知識所以有很多的這些語言都使用了這個日語那我也想問一下因為其實台語字典是有在跟隨著與時俱進來興編但是我看客語字典我去查我們現在台灣最夯的半導體"},{"start":14509.224,"end":14532.91,"text":"可是我們客語字典裡面呢我找不到半導體的搜尋結果那在我們114年的客委會的預算裡面也沒有針對這些新創詞彙來去做相關的研發我認為這會是一個很大的問題因為隨著我們的客語的孩子長大他要去吸取新知的時候他到底要怎麼學他又要回到華語霸權的狀態之下所以我想請主委來說明一下這針對這樣子的新詞的編列我們的規劃是什麼"},{"start":14536.234,"end":14539.757,"text":"呃,針對它的詞彼,我們有邀請專家學長：無顧聽的來討論：當然,以為還是會加用法語：也在其他語言的稱呼來做：以為會出家翻譯：也要為經過專家學長來討論"},{"start":14555.087,"end":14567.199,"text":"對,但是我現在已經討論了很多,聽起來已經討論了很多,那我們到底進度呢?因為總不可能一直討論之後還是沒有更新嗎?現在內同的部分我們在檢討,在做更新的工作,所以編譯的部分我們還是有做,有確定,一旦確定我們就會公佈"},{"start":14578.649,"end":14580.91,"text":"大概是預估的一個時辰呢?可不可以... 咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?"},{"start":14614.068,"end":14630.426,"text":"好謝謝張雅琳委員好接下來請葉元之委員請原民會曾主委"},{"start":14633.988,"end":14660.817,"text":"昨天主委好昨天在總諮詢的時候因為我後來時間到了所以有一些事情本來想跟你就教了剛好今天你有來我就延續昨天的話題我先問一下原住民委員會成立的目的是什麼是不是要照顧原住民是是吧對那當原住民被欺負的時候主委是不是應該提身而出應該吧應該應該吧你知道現在我們我們新北市很多原住民朋友包括有一些民意代表跟我反映說原住民現在已經被污名化"},{"start":14661.954,"end":14663.576,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":14677.634,"end":14691.563,"text":"但是他們現在就說好像現在還沒有審完就是已經擋了預算了導致於很多原住民就被誤會以為說是原住民的關係還害得其他人沒有這些社福預算那身為主委的你聽到這個你不會覺得很生氣嗎"},{"start":14693.022,"end":14717.899,"text":"這個就是不是原住民的原因這是一個就是原住民的進化補償的關係所以這個就沒有辦法繼續省沒有繼續省但是那個預算今年的當然還在持續使用啊明年的預算是可以省到12月31號嘛到目前為止是沒有影響的嘛對吧但是很多人就以為說已經有影響了嘛所以就把這個氣出在原住民身上嘛"},{"start":14718.399,"end":14736.198,"text":"那主委我覺得如果身為原住民的主委應該要去幫忙消毒這是第一件事情第二件事情很多原住民講說主委您身為原住民好像是站在政黨的立場沒有照顧原住民特別是這一次禁法補償條例本來應該是一公頃到要補助到六萬塊"},{"start":14737.139,"end":14752.431,"text":"那我看到你的說法是說你們在今年的原住民的預算已經比去年多12%感覺就是說我們已經對你很照顧了啦原住民我們已經很照顧了啦已經多照顧12%了啦你們還想怎麼樣你這樣的回答會讓人家有這種感覺你知道嗎沒有我說這個"},{"start":14756.175,"end":14767.037,"text":"明年的預算跟今年比成長了12%這是事實問題是你這樣回答並沒有解決競爬補償條例掃編的問題反而會讓人家誤會說好像主委你認為12%就夠了而且更何況多的12%主要是用在哪裡競爬補償是多了8.16%那剩下4%8.16億7%左右7%左右那剩下幾%"},{"start":14784.884,"end":14813.541,"text":"剩下5%用在哪?用在譬如說用在教育、文化的部分還有這個對演的部分因為你現在講的那12%有一部分是跟競爬補償它的性質是不一樣的嘛是競爬補償的意思是說因為現在非常多原住民他要土地他要土地嘛是土地的所有權人嘛所以你禁止他們去砍伐因為可能要維持地景地貌可能是要怕破壞水土所以禁止他砍伐的補償"},{"start":14815.219,"end":14839.489,"text":"所以這個性質跟你所謂編的像其他的福利或各方面是不一樣的嘛所以原住民的朋友講說要不然這樣子你不要我禁止砍伐我也不配合禁止砍伐那你也不用給我補償我可以利用那個土地賺更多啊現在很多原住民是這樣講啊所以你用增加12%去回應競爬補償這個事情是風馬牛不相干的事啊所以我建議你不要再用這樣的話術了因為這樣子原住民聽了更生氣"},{"start":14840.809,"end":14854.539,"text":"更何況我來自新北市我本身不是原住民但我們新北市有一個烏來區烏來區裡面他受影響的是就是有500他有571.5公頃是進髮補償的土地大概有1656筆然後大概影響大概368人那這些人他們會覺得說為什麼"},{"start":14865.834,"end":14890.999,"text":"你不給我補償 你給我的補償是這樣然後不願意幫我調高 又要我禁止嘛所以這個對他們來說他們就會有這樣的一個剝削感啦所以我是覺得你不要講那個12不要再講12%然後再來就是6萬塊錢的部分6萬塊為什麼現在3萬調到6萬其實原住民朋友他也有算一個算一個這個算法出來嘛比如說平地區枯水期的補助每公頃是5萬嘛"},{"start":14892.196,"end":14911.779,"text":"那你竟把補償已經幾十年沒有補償把過去沒有補償部分假設多多少少給點利息多給個一萬 剩六萬塊其實也是合理的所以我不知道為什麼主任你認為不合理然後你對於昨天卓榮泰院長講說如果這樣從三萬直接跳到六萬是浪費公帑你怎麼看"},{"start":14912.239,"end":14922.884,"text":"不是浪費公帑就是一下子一個預算一下子成長沒有沒有浪費公帑是卓院長講的不是你講的我知道是卓院長講的對因為我在現場聽到那你覺得浪費公帑你怎麼看"},{"start":14924.662,"end":14952.919,"text":"你針對他講的所以你認為他講錯嗎因為你認為他講錯嗎你覺得應該是說編太快而不是浪費公帑嗎好啦謝謝那個主委你到最後總算有道德勇氣講說院長講錯了不是浪費公帑應該是你認為循序漸進4萬到6萬慢慢來而不是說用在原住民身上是浪費啦好那你可能利用你們的內閣會議的時候跟院長提醒一下就不要講話一句話就傷了我們原住民的心啦好謝謝"},{"start":14957.025,"end":14978.042,"text":"好,謝謝葉原汁委員。接下來請吳佩奕委員。謝謝主席。我請文化部理事長。好,請理事長。委員好。"},{"start":14978.722,"end":14993.111,"text":"四長好首先我要感謝因為文化部一直很支持流行音樂那不只文化部燕京現場也有客委會、園民會也都在支持我們用我們自己母語創作的流行音樂我非常感謝因為每一年我們在萬華有舉辦一個萬華大鬧熱的音樂祭很多的歌手例如說像客語歌手邱淑蟬然後嘻哈歌手雅痞春麵樂隊"},{"start":15001.997,"end":15020.266,"text":"那像原住民歌手引力高祿 Abus 都有來到我們萬華來演出當然還有很多是華語創作歌手非常感謝而且我覺得這樣的活動非常的有意義就在我們萬華的臺北第一條街貴陽街青山宮前面我們在地的長輩都跟我講說很少很少看到這麼多的年輕人湧入"},{"start":15021.767,"end":15021.787,"text":"臺灣台語"},{"start":15052.188,"end":15053.209,"text":"我從小到大,我爸爸媽媽說台語,但我都聽不懂"},{"start":15068.65,"end":15074.531,"text":"我是為我自己出來選舉開始我才從零開始學起我是怎樣用的我都先用華語寫好稿子然後呢用LINE傳給我媽媽拜託她唸一遍用台語唸一次給我聽然後錄音給我我用白的因為我的選區在中央網站區我們網站有很多的選票每天吃平安餐會都要說"},{"start":15094.215,"end":15099.018,"text":"所以我們現在討論的是我們臺灣所有族群所使用自自然語,也就是我們的母語都面臨了冰危的狀況,也就是傳承像我這一代,如果我的母語我沒有把它學起來我學一代要怎樣"},{"start":15112.486,"end":15142.01,"text":"所以我們現在在討論的是一個我們的母語面臨冰危的情況所以說今年6月的時候我在教委會質詢因為我知道我們的國家語言發展法2018年制定行政院的國家語言整體發展方案2022年開始來落實那文化部說率先了開始把我們所有建議要優先使用的名稱在一些公文件裡面先開始來使用但是呢教育部卻沒有同步"},{"start":15142.29,"end":15163.098,"text":"我覺得我們國家政治很重要的是一致性這是原則我們不能各部會大家各做各的所以我請我們教育部趕快要用我們行政院整體方案包括了我們網路上面的詞典的使用名稱包括我們的公文件使用名稱要以一致性的原則來落實我們國家語言整體發展方案"},{"start":15164.358,"end":15184.585,"text":"那對我來說我覺得就是一件事為什麼剛剛我說我們為什麼我們所有的既固有族群所使用的自然語都面臨冰危的狀況就是因為過去的國語所謂的國語只有一種語言就叫做華語對於其他的語言被打壓成次等的方言"},{"start":15185.405,"end":15205.602,"text":"所以何止是傷心．過去在威權時代．何止是傷．對於其他族群的語言使用者來說．不只是傷心．何止是撕裂．是打壓到殘廢．又殘又廢．所以我們必須要趕快來去保存．推動發展我們的母語那謝謝次長．接下來我要請我們客委會主委"},{"start":15214.73,"end":15235.541,"text":"語言的傳承非常重要我注意到課委會有一個沉浸式幼兒園的方案我們現在用補助的方式來補助幼兒園我們有三種包括沉浸式幼兒園也有全課語的幼兒園能不能請主委來向我們說明一下目前全課語幼兒園或是沉浸式幼兒園我們怎麼樣來教孩子來使用課語目前怎麼執行的"},{"start":15236.201,"end":15239.022,"text":"這方面 其實最主要是信心信心 要會講 要懂得講他講的話 他會帶著聲音來學所以他的反應 整個反應就會像特班一樣 所謂的很堂堂的合法"},{"start":15253.829,"end":15258.673,"text":"所以重點是那種形容詞所以整頁演說的形容詞都要說,不能說的形容詞都要學,要演奏、要支持演奏、支持、不能說的形容詞,要學、要說也要有方法,例如說要形容詞要問聖人說聖人要用來說,所以聖人要有神出感,說我講什麼"},{"start":15279.289,"end":15303.116,"text":"我覺得這非常好因為母語的學習就是要從小開始我們的誠信是客語的幼兒園就是說園林使用50%的你們的資料目前全台灣是77間那麼全客語的幼兒園也就是說百分之百教學都使用客語的目前全台灣有7間那我們目前預算的投入客會我看是4000萬那今年你們邊境來"},{"start":15305.717,"end":15310.362,"text":"最佳、再增加了兩千萬：也就是未來我們會擴大來辦理：是不是?沒錯：因為你對韓社、越社越合：不予接觸、不予合：那些效果最好：所以我們要再支持：也再創始有意合合法的結團："},{"start":15325.239,"end":15333.783,"text":"沒錯,全客語的幼兒園全台灣只有8間,我覺得不夠一定支持你們擴大辦理,再努力來推行所以說我剛講的這2000萬在預算裡面這叫做新興預算所以我也要拜託所有我們支持客語發展的委員們"},{"start":15341.886,"end":15369.043,"text":"大家一定要來支持我們的總預算因為今年總預算沒有過只能沿用去年度的我們沒有辦法再擴大辦理這個很重要所以主委你也要努力的來跟所有的委員溝通我們希望我們的客語幼兒園可以再繼續的擴大辦理努力的把我們的孩子不管是哪一個族群的孩子從小就可以來好好的學習他的母語好不好好 感謝五委員﹑也感謝所有的委員的支持感謝好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":15372.561,"end":15373.963,"text":"吳培宇委員陳培宇委員禮次長"},{"start":15395.661,"end":15406.869,"text":"市長好,請問你會講台語嗎?好,會啊。應該是會啦。是。他剛才配音,他很認真,講台語給大家聽。他跟我們說,他是很怕病,出來社會後開始餓。我要跟市長報告,我小時候,阿公阿嬤也是教我講台語。但是,我去到後來,我一天覺得,我如果講台語,我就要被騙到門口。"},{"start":15419.437,"end":15419.617,"text":"我確實經驗過這個生命歷程"},{"start":15434.048,"end":15445.805,"text":"甚至在我不想掛狗牌我跟老師抗議的時候老師說那你就罰錢啊你只要在班上不小心講到台語你就要罰錢我班上也有客家話的同學講客家話也被罰錢罰不出錢怎麼辦我就被叫去門口刷牙"},{"start":15449.631,"end":15467.066,"text":"所以我跟次長報告我牙齒現在非常好但是我一點都不想感謝這個獨尊華語的政策所以如果今天有任何的臺灣族群認為自己的母語受到侵蝕、受到壓迫我非常認同張雅琳委員說的它其實是獨尊華語"},{"start":15468.647,"end":15494.06,"text":"非常多年的政策底下導致於全臺灣所有的母語包含剛剛的原住民委員談的事情所有的母語都遭到壓抑這是我個人在整個語言發展臺灣語言發展史上的認知不知道次長你覺得我說的對不對是的就是所以我們之所以去修訂國家語言發展法就是希望能夠彌補然後調整我們過去錯誤的語言政策上留下來的這樣的一個遺憾"},{"start":15494.42,"end":15503.204,"text":"我從早上聽到現在沒有一個委員提起這件事情我要提醒所有的黨籍立委我們在1972年甚至還韓令電視台每天播出的台語節目不得多於一個小時甚至還有當時的國民黨文工會進而要求台視要審查劇本"},{"start":15511.747,"end":15527.92,"text":"在當時的劇本審查不過底下還有很多台語的節目就被停播如果大家想一想小時候的記憶就會知道為什麼今天所有的母語族群要共同來面對國家語言發展法這件事情如同主委說如果你覺得我剛剛說明是對的那我們來看一下來下一張"},{"start":15529.661,"end":15557.557,"text":"這個是臺語文創園區辦的所有跟臺語有關的活動包含從禁歌開始如果大家記憶可及我們小時候多少禁歌多少禁書都是跟語言有關而且都是因為來自於我們每一個人的母語這是臺語的部分再來下一張在客委會的支持下非常多年的預算甚至有專業的主管機關專責的主管機關我們看到有客家文化體驗活動客家小旅行客家語言的學習活動客家美食的推廣活動下一頁"},{"start":15558.337,"end":15576.529,"text":"在原民會主管機關的支持底下：我們有非常多原住民族語言的活動、演唱會：包含剛才佩儀跟雅琳委員都說了：我想要問次長：在這個共同的論述底下：文化部如何看待不同的母語：在這個情況：目前大家這個對立的情況：次長你怎麼看"},{"start":15579.41,"end":15596.096,"text":"我們剛剛講就是今天台灣的本土語言會遭受到目前都瀕臨失傳的傳承的危機是因為過去的不當的語言政策所以我們現在修改了一個最大的原則就是所有的固有語言都是稱為國家語言"},{"start":15597.897,"end":15617.853,"text":"所以國語這個詞就不再是最屬於華語所以我剛剛都說華語嘛 對不對你有發現我都說華語也就是如果各位認真去研究國家語言發展法會發現我們不再說國語了以前獨尊華語的情況下彷彿臺灣這個國家只能有一種語言所有的母語我要再次強調所有的母語都被壓抑都被打壓 對嗎我阿公阿嬤"},{"start":15625.501,"end":15637.274,"text":"我們來往下看下一頁所有人都有提到所有的語言社群都有權利以自己的語言來稱呼自己我想我就不再舉例次長你一定非常清楚來看下一頁"},{"start":15637.754,"end":15664.162,"text":"所以我自己真的認為臺語是臺專有名詞並不是代表全臺灣的臺語這件事情我要為所有在臺灣這個土地上講著自己母語的人發聲我沒有只想要為所謂講臺語的族群發聲我認為所有的母語都必須受到尊重而且受到重視並且在相關部會主管機關的協助之下用力的推廣用力的讓他講得更多講得更好我們來看下一頁"},{"start":15665.814,"end":15688.883,"text":"但是大家很好奇臺灣台語這個詞怎麼來相關的新聞其實曾桂海醫師當年有提到甚至呢看下一頁當時的客委會的主委其實他也是客家人可是他也認同這個寫法所以我想要說的是其實如果硬要扯回閩南語這件事情其實在學理上還有非常多還需要討論的事情我想我時間有限我就不再說可是在臺灣的民眾的調查當中大部分"},{"start":15689.443,"end":15705.679,"text":"百分之八十五的臺灣民眾認為自己使用臺語一詞只有百分之十五的民眾使用閩南語一詞這個我覺得要再次強調所以我認為這件事情完全沒有這個問題好下一頁但是我要提醒大家它是什麼時候被改的1960年代以後我給大家看一個證據來下一頁"},{"start":15708.386,"end":15726.483,"text":"這個書是在1954年臺灣省國語推行委員會編印當時蔣中正先生他就寫這個課本是他審定過的叫做臺語方音符號課本跟注音臺語上面還有蔣中正三個字我要提醒忘記這段歷史的所有在臺灣這塊土地上的人當時臺語這個是就已經存在在臺灣這個土地上所以對我來說下一頁"},{"start":15734.095,"end":15761.754,"text":"我認為台灣台語符合國家語言的精神而且它同時沒有排擠到壓抑到其他的語言但是也要再次拜託文化部包含客委會跟主委會我們在台灣所有母語的推廣上跟資源挹注上我們都要更加用力不管是在學校在日常的生活在飲食的推廣在旅行上我相信讓所有的母語蓬勃同步的發展不要再只是獨尊華語應該是我們接下來非常重要的行政目標"},{"start":15763.695,"end":15765.136,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":15791.691,"end":15804.201,"text":"主席,有請文化部、教育部來,請李次長,還有梁司長委員好"},{"start":15805.714,"end":15828.886,"text":"教育部在7月中旬預告要將閩南語語言能力認證考試規費收費標準改名為臺灣台語語言能力認證考試收費標準引發了一些討論但是目前看起來教育部是不為所動所以9月30日如預告所示要把閩南語改為臺灣台語"},{"start":15831.767,"end":15859.462,"text":"最近我剛好看到有很多網友對於台語有關的議題有點困惑那我想聽聽兩位對於這些網友的意見的看法有一位網友在PTT發文說他到廈門他被嚇到了為什麼呢廈門人台語之標準沒有奇怪口音說得比自己台北同學還要好讓他以為他在台灣這是一位網友的一個"},{"start":15860.746,"end":15862.368,"text":"中國人想學台語讓他很不舒服"},{"start":15871.485,"end":15899.215,"text":"尤其中國的音樂節目裡面竟然也唱臺語歌曲使用我們的文化符號讓他很不爽覺得被冒犯了那也有網友說對於馬來西亞的朋友會說臺語的問候語三字經他十分訝異他說原來臺灣的這個問候語已經發揚到世界各地去那我想要請教一下我們的理事長"},{"start":15900.748,"end":15929.401,"text":"你覺得為什麼廈門人的台語會說得這麼好啊?這怎麼回事啊?廈門人應該是擅長說他們的廈門話。廈門人用的就是閩南語啊。就是閩南語。你有沒有去過廈門?沒有,抱歉。對嘛,我去過。真的,就是那網友講的。你們都覺得我在台灣嗎?會有這種時空感,你知道嗎?因為他的閩南語跟台灣的閩南語是同源的啊。"},{"start":15931.181,"end":15955.41,"text":"應該這樣說,如果是一個比較善於常用臺語的人員來講,到了廈門去應該還是可以聽得出來廈門話跟臺語之間的差距。你這樣跟我講口音當然,我跟你講宜蘭跟這個,跟那個高雄口音就不一樣啊,當然口音有些微差距啊,你不能用這口音的些微差距跟我講就是說,沒有關係啦,我覺得,次長,我現在請教你下一個問題啊,啊中國人怎麼可以唱台語歌?"},{"start":15957.999,"end":15983.329,"text":"這個由中國他們來決定你會不會覺得被冒犯我沒有被覺得如果廈門人唱閩南語歌你會不會覺得被冒犯當然不會你對於閩南的一些民眾他講閩南語跟台灣現在我們用的閩南語就是同源第三個我要問馬來西亞的朋友也會說所謂的臺語你會壓抑嗎"},{"start":15986.172,"end":16005.308,"text":"不會啊不會嘛因為也是同源啊都是閩南語啊我們現在通稱的臺語是福建省閩江以南通用的語言是從明清時期從閩南地區移出去的人都會講閩南語啦那閩南人講、臺灣人講、新馬的華人也講"},{"start":16008.47,"end":16036.893,"text":"所以全球各地說閩南語的人都能溝通無外那閩南語保留中原古音甚至被認證為所謂古漢語跟活化石傳承古老的和樂文化當然我也理解為什麼今天教育部要這麼做因為跟一貫的所謂的去中化的系列是有一些關聯可是基本上你還是要去看看所謂的淵源跟歷史"},{"start":16037.654,"end":16053.138,"text":"那你把所謂的閩南語把它改成所謂的臺灣台語把它所謂的塑造成所謂的有些人就會認為說你這樣的一個做法你反而變成像高安會造成前面很多人的困擾他覺得為什麼中國人會說台灣話"},{"start":16055.444,"end":16076.133,"text":"其實中國人說的是閩南話跟台灣人說閩南話是同樣的道理那當然文化部以所謂的專屬表徵化為名義訂出所謂的臺灣台語、臺灣客語、臺灣原住民語這些名稱實際上某種程度你只是把所謂的本來簡單的事情變得更繁複了"},{"start":16076.753,"end":16093.531,"text":"事實上我剛剛我看前面那個陳培瑞也講確實阿在台灣很多的民眾使用閩南語的民眾他有時候講就是方便起見通稱他就用台語了可是當你這麼定的時候就出現一個問題第一個請問日本人會說他講的是日本日語嗎"},{"start":16095.694,"end":16125.174,"text":"就日語嘛英國會講它是英國英語嗎德國會講它是德國德語嗎自英國獨立的美國也不會講它是美國美語啊它只有美式英語這樣的說法而已那也就是說今天說實在話本來齁在所謂的意義上不是講通稱意義上的台語它其實包含了閩南語在臺灣用的閩南語也包含了所謂的原住民語也包含了客家語言"},{"start":16125.774,"end":16129.215,"text":"二、邀請圖權級委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":16151.667,"end":16179.422,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麻煩請我們谷主委好 谷主委土平先生主委 我請問那針對我們今天閩南語改臺灣台語這部分文化部說他們的書面用語命名考量是要堅固不想排除在臺灣語言之外和尊重各族群對語言的自稱"},{"start":16180.382,"end":16205.574,"text":"那針對這部分他說他們有針對國人對語言的稱呼做了調查才把各種國家的語言定為現在公布的名稱那我想請教主委那我們客委會有沒有針對客家族群做調查詢問他們是否認為閩南語佔了臺語這個名稱之後有沒有讓他覺得自己被排除被擠壓"},{"start":16206.99,"end":16214.415,"text":"我想這樣在名稱的部分在國土每天的名錄、檔案、國土的意見無窮用就不僅好路出窮好路出窮也不是鐵板一塊的地方也有無窮用的意見客家出窮什麼窮用的地方有無窮用的意見所以在這樣立場之下我們是尊崇所有人對於講法做法其實在合理費內講"},{"start":16235.627,"end":16243.931,"text":"因爲要不適應、要堅持、一定要用法：所以我們都會建議用法：建議用法由我們客家、客家委員會來聽說：我可以講科羅法：不是講一些其他語言：所以在名稱當中,我們可以選擇選擇比如說,多多說的臺灣台語、臺語：臺灣的明南語"},{"start":16262.341,"end":16264.622,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":16282.89,"end":16302.219,"text":"因為我們要討論的很多基層的客家鄉親的聲音他們很擔心客語的傳承那行政院跟文化部這樣子的面面他們一直跟我們反映包含其實原住民也是一樣他說認為這個就是欺負弱勢對於弱勢的客家人、原住民"},{"start":16302.919,"end":16326.092,"text":"這一部分 他們認為 如果這樣子去命名久而久之﹐會認為臺澎金馬的主流語言就是臺灣台語所以 要拜託我們客委會主委 要拜託拿出客家精神、人間精神要為我們 你是我們客委會的主委 你要為客家族群發聲我們今天不是打壓"},{"start":16327.193,"end":16337.761,"text":"任何一個族群．不是打壓任何一個語言．但是我們是希望能夠堅持國家語言．各族群的平等平權．你會否負責?阿雄,沒有錯．就是．不關在科羅花、荷花．也在原住民的花．各種的花．就在臺灣的國家語言．也要是沒問題的．所以要平等．才可以國家語言發達法律．"},{"start":16356.716,"end":16372.575,"text":"最主要的目的所以在這裡拜託因為你是我們客委會的主委我希望我們客委會發展客家這個母語是非常重要的一環那如果用這個臺灣台語居然那麼多的客家鄉親有這種疑慮"},{"start":16374.858,"end":16393.824,"text":"那我們客委會主委是我們客家鄉親的大家長應該站在客家鄉親的立場要為客家鄉親來發聲所以這部分希望我們客委會主委一定要拿出老人家的精神針對我們客家族群的權益一定要站出來為大家發聲"},{"start":16394.804,"end":16395.024,"text":"請文化部理事長請理事長"},{"start":16411.161,"end":16430.032,"text":"理事長我剛剛聽我們楊崇英委員詢問到所以針對你說閩南語改臺灣台語你說其實你們行政單位也知道這樣做基本上會造成傷害對不對因為我剛剛有聽到我不是這樣我是說"},{"start":16430.732,"end":16455.778,"text":"如果委員各界有這樣的反應有鄉親覺得這個命名有受到傷害的時候作為行政單位我們有那個責任要多做說明、多做溝通那其實事實上今天會開這個會議其實就是因為很多我們的客家鄉親、原民一些比較弱勢的族群他們就提出那麼大的反彈所以今天才會針對這個會議來做討論那我們是認為"},{"start":16460.439,"end":16485.359,"text":"基本上現在以現行來講並沒有造成什麼樣的問題我不知道為什麼我們現在我們文化部要去操作這個意識形態要去撕裂族群破壞我們彼此之間的團結現在一直以來大家都很和諧我不知道我們文化部這樣做到底有什麼意義還是文化部找不到更有意義的事情來做嗎"},{"start":16485.879,"end":16512.191,"text":"市長跟委員報告當然也是臺語團體臺語鄉親不斷的希望我們要在名稱上面給予臺語一個正式地位所以我們才去訂定所謂的書面建議用語那我問你你說因為堅持用臺灣台語把閩南話改成臺灣台語是因為你們調查結果的多數尊重使用者自稱對不對是的"},{"start":16512.631,"end":16528.107,"text":"好 那我們同一個調查報告我們也看到那你們在調查國語之後講國語他們說稱為國語是使用者最多他們也認為國語是他們覺得最好的名稱那為什麼你們要把國語改成華語"},{"start":16529.648,"end":16554.74,"text":"跟委員報告我們並沒有去變更國語或華語這個名詞：不是你說閩南語改成臺灣台語是因為尊重使用者自稱嗎那我看到你們調查報告他們說稱為國語也是他們覺得最多最好為什麼你這個要改成華語所以我們沒有改成華語這個詞我們沒有任何的公文去要求行政單位將國語改成華語沒有還有好"},{"start":16556.241,"end":16568.7,"text":"那針對福州話、閩東話、閩北話他們也說比講麻族語還多也就是說稱麻族語是少的可是為什麼你們又建議要把它改成麻族語"},{"start":16570.051,"end":16597.143,"text":"這個部分是跟連江縣政府有做了一個溝通我們請連江縣政府告訴我們他們希望用什麼樣的語言來做自稱那你剛剛又說尊重尊重多數使用者認為尊重哪一個名稱是最好你說閩南語是因為說他用臺灣台語所以說他們說使用者自稱使用最多那一樣國語最多你要用華語那說福州話、閩東話、閩北話"},{"start":16599.544,"end":16618.715,"text":"講說用這個來代表性的又最多你又把它改成馬族語所以我們是希望不要多重標準不要為了想做的事情為了自己圓一個謊去定一個標準說因為是這樣那別的你又不用這個標準同樣的事情不同的標準"},{"start":16619.235,"end":16634.501,"text":"所以我們在這邊真的是希望 文化部找一些有意義的事情來做不要一直操作意識形態 撕裂族群 破壞團結現在現行大家都非常和諧 整個族群都相安無事"},{"start":16635.121,"end":16652.369,"text":"為什麼要去造成族群的對立造成台灣民眾彼此之間為了這個語言的去爭鬥我覺得希望文化部針對這部分審慎評估來仔細來考量我們真的希望族群、國家語言平等、平權拜託拜託好 謝謝委員的指導 謝謝"},{"start":16658.043,"end":16676.72,"text":"謝謝圖權級委員接下來請張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在請鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員不在請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在請徐富奎委員"},{"start":16687.943,"end":16692.406,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請客家委員會的副主委好,請副主委齊立彥主委好,各位粉絲我們從客家的字體尤其我們在這裡主委做過平等、高雄、台南的主委對我們南部的責任了解在這個過程中,我相信"},{"start":16715.011,"end":16716.673,"text":"二、客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":16734.048,"end":16757.353,"text":"我們有業和法：也有我們的盤法：那個文化的底蘊也是站在後面：但是,我沒有看到這樣：客委會針對那個部分：來做臺立的一個推廣：我們有看到那個南北：那個客家文化：沒對待的一個情形：我們想,未來學位費："},{"start":16757.993,"end":16761.716,"text":"尤其是陸續的部分,有哪些想法：來做文化的保存：還有產業的發展：請主委委員會負責。感謝市委員：莫不錯：在北部過去幾年：一定的鬧捏：浪漫退三線等等：我們還未去集合：提名的客家的企業："},{"start":16783.192,"end":16784.853,"text":"財政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":16808.985,"end":16809.766,"text":"立法院議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":16826.068,"end":16843.634,"text":"主委,如果我們看到我們剛才提到的那些浪漫台三線明年拖延到的錢甚至如常態性有補助我們平常沒有我們要去煎炮、沉淀、再去沖藥、供應的文化有法律變成常態性的經費補助的來源嗎?"},{"start":16845.9,"end":16856.508,"text":"目前那些都有支持但是不老闆啦國土委員都內政去緊批當然希望一度一候但是緊批還是有限就提議要依存地盤我請你來支持提防傑勤法庭所以要拜託主委我們客家文化因為行業面的鄉鎮地盤要有國土的"},{"start":16876.242,"end":16885.885,"text":"人體、文化、軟體的建設的部分：就放在大壁了：像我們一樣：就客家的藝文訓練團體：我們邊讀讀演唱會處理表演：但是我們一樣可能：包含客會會那篇安排上面：沒有那麼細緻：我們拼動在客家鄉鎮：有時間我們會判斷"},{"start":16900.45,"end":16927.778,"text":"每部份的判決去作證：但若是老人家：若沒有方便：文化部再提訪：看我們呢：客家的節目：由法律我們來展示說：我們屏東北的：客家鄉鎮：未來鄉鎮：可以有：每年有一個常態性的：法律：可以來判斷：我們：跟提訪來討論：可以運用的來現場：可以陸續提起的：希克的表演：可以我們去：討論：進行"},{"start":16930.826,"end":16957.159,"text":"因為美麗鄉鎮有美麗鄉鎮牧群的特色尤其我們要在國土服務方面才能講、環境才能但是我們用在地藝的特色包含我們家族有小家古厝安好環境用以做亞洲文化的巡演甚至鼓勵亞洲鄉上的鼓勵其他地方做產業的發展、文化的發展"},{"start":16957.74,"end":16961.98,"text":"亦到我們客戶會有沒有進一步的措施開來﹔天使亦到,好想念"},{"start":16963.099,"end":16970.226,"text":"由我們接下来,我會針對考試的提名的量,包括提到委員說的服務,是否有人願意以六一來做服務的贊助希望,也要說有人希望提供演出表演等等,我會來支持"},{"start":16989.184,"end":17002.421,"text":"兩位拜託主委、同學、院政府、客戶處：也是您的娘家：將會被批准、被判斷：有任何的提防：可以設法提防：作出處理主席再借我30秒"},{"start":17004.823,"end":17013.165,"text":"最後我希望臺灣國土委員會講到學法的推廣問題：因為若是看到國土學生要參與課語檢定：檢定是一個過程：檢定學法並從不標講：將這部分的課文用於從日常生活：從學校端用於推廣到課家的語言：讓更普遍性"},{"start":17034.913,"end":17056.748,"text":"議員講到重點,通過以後沒聽話講：所以我們現在合理化的政策：就是要將環境打造出來：本擴大於有擴大地方：作為使用者的意願：包括根本就像我們的答詢：我們也要用合法本套的可能度：提到說其實從那裡重合在其他地方：也要重合在哪裡：這是我們要打造出來的"},{"start":17060.129,"end":17070.038,"text":"尤其在陸下要通過老人家就要考試講學法．包括要通過同學講講．到生育方面要通過學長講講．這樣繼續有那個語言的專長可以發揮．謝謝主委．平常針對六隊的建設會麻煩主委．台立的添宿．感謝齊委員"},{"start":17084.075,"end":17094.946,"text":"好,謝謝徐富奎委員接下來請丁薛忠委員、丁薛忠委員、丁薛忠委員不在、林楚英委員、林楚英委員、林楚英委員不在請伍麗華委員謝謝主席,有請圓明會主委好,請曾主委"},{"start":17112.731,"end":17138.192,"text":"委員好主委您好您是我過去的長官那我對您算是很熟悉了解我今天其實本來是要來講國家語言發展中心的設置那我等一下再問我在辦公室我發現今天這一場雖然園民會不是主場但是不分園和立委都還是很關注禁法補償的議題"},{"start":17139.753,"end":17168.745,"text":"那其實我在院會總質詢大概 原民立委也都關心這一題那我不是不關心而是我覺得我過去三年前就開始質詢這個議題那很感謝大家的一個合作讓這樣的一個法案能夠修正通過那我覺得這一案就結束了可是我很憂心因為我們很多最近以來重要的原住民議題消失了"},{"start":17169.605,"end":17190.243,"text":"大家不斷的關注我認為這個假議題所以我很希望我們原民會能夠講清楚那這對我來講明明也沒有違法明明也發得出來但是為什麼會搞得大家這樣會聲會影、沸沸揚揚、鬼影重重"},{"start":17191.345,"end":17209.733,"text":"我就搞不清楚那上次主委您很棒在大家吵得沸沸揚揚的時候您有用你個人的臉書來跟大家做保證所以呢聲音就擬平了一些但是呢看起來大家還是繼續炒作"},{"start":17211.013,"end":17231.641,"text":"我是希望原民會能夠用公文一次說清楚也不要讓地方的這些鄉鎮長不斷地來問像我自己我都覺得我好可憐我這幾個月到全國參加各種活動鄉運也好、豐年祭也好、收穫祭也好"},{"start":17233.015,"end":17245.164,"text":"大家都要我被迫 要我表態耶我也很乾脆啊 我都有錄影存證啊他們問我都說 保證如果明年9月以後發不出來 少一毛錢 吳立華不選了主委 您懂得我的決心嗎對我來講 我們來看嘛這個我都三年前就開始質詢啦經法補償使用重發基金"},{"start":17261.639,"end":17286.505,"text":"當然合法我過去有問過三年前就問過為什麼合法因為重發基金的收支保管及運用辦法寫得很清楚限制原住民族利用原住民族土地回饋或補償支出這個法條是什麼時候修正出來的馬英九時代96年11月30因為這是辦法行政院修正通過"},{"start":17288.206,"end":17313.054,"text":"我們再來看一下到底合不合法這個公文我也問過我三年前就問過這個是主計總署發給原民會的公文寫得很清楚主計總署說循例維持公共預算及原民基金各辦負擔的方式辦理該基金如確有財務不敷在與協處"},{"start":17315.07,"end":17340.998,"text":"這個也是主計總署當時要開始發放禁法補償告訴你們的所以我就不理解這麼簡單一分鐘可以講完的事情難道不能發公文給大家嗎我倒是很想知道因為資料都在你們那邊但是我始終不敢質詢問這些問題因為我怕失焦我們都心知肚明"},{"start":17342.512,"end":17362.059,"text":"五點二萬筆我們的這些可憐的普羅大眾他只有零點二分有的人只有一公頃他能領多少錢但是你應該很清楚我做過原民處長接你的位置我看過有一個人是領一百二十二公頃欸而且我去查過不是原住民借名登記欸"},{"start":17371.734,"end":17387.403,"text":"這種事情我們原民會應該要擔負起來所以我希望說我就講到這裡我希望這個趕快擬平不要用那些亂七八糟的說法最難抗拒的說法就是兩分真八分假很多人善用話術也不是全部謊話"},{"start":17400.202,"end":17413.437,"text":"但是這種三分真七分假我們到底要怎麼樣去拆穿很麻煩但是我始終相信邪不勝正好嗎那我要關心一下那個文化部"},{"start":17419.8,"end":17443.713,"text":"文化部是我們的次長次長您好再給一分鐘就好因為我知道國家語言發展中心設置條例已經在6月就是行政院通過已經送立法院了雖然還沒有排審但是我有一些問題想要關心我第一個想要關心的就是按照這個設置條例的條文它有它的任務業務範圍"},{"start":17445.954,"end":17461.465,"text":"我們原民會我們之前也已經有一個原住民族語言研究發展基金會的設置條例我們也有它的業務範圍、它的任務那對照起來講一句實在話跌床駕屋啦所以我就是想關心第一個問題"},{"start":17463.944,"end":17482.315,"text":"這種疊墻家屋的情形．未來兩個單位要怎麼樣的來合作這邊跟委員做說明所以如果委員可以再回到上一頁的話我們可以清楚的看到這樣在語言的語料、史料收集這一部分我們有特別強調以後語發中心做的是跨語言"},{"start":17483.596,"end":17495.899,"text":"而不是單一語言：如果是單一語言：像原住民的42種語言的話：它仍然屬於原住民語言研究發展基金會去處理：可是這個語發中心會處理的：比如說整個漢語系統：或是南島語系系統：它是用一個跨語言的方式去處理它那像在跟這邊有提到說：所謂的推廣使用的時候：我們在語發中心的提醒是受託辦理：因為時間的關係：所以我順著要講的就是說"},{"start":17514.165,"end":17532.274,"text":"經費因為我希望未來中心的經費分配上會不會因為有原語會然後你們會減少比例因為我剛剛聽我們的次長您說的時候感覺上你們是按照語言別分開嘛那未來在經費配比上"},{"start":17535.516,"end":17549.509,"text":"這個中心的經費應該跟各個客委會或原民會原本的經費沒有干涉會另外獨立編列經費也會另外獨立分配給他們就由這個中心來執行啊這個就是我擔心的啊"},{"start":17551.114,"end":17573.665,"text":"又是跌床駕屋那意思就是說在我們文化部設置的國家語言發展中心是獨立又要一組原住民的人才在裡面嗎對 所以這個部分我們在月底的語發大會裡面就希望能夠進一步討論這個就是我要先提醒的我不希望因為有了原語會文化部將來"},{"start":17575.466,"end":17596.915,"text":"會覺得反正原民會你們有你們的原語會我們的任務是分開的按照語言別的你們有你們的獨立的經費我們的經費是獨立的除非你也聘了一組原住民的語言專家進到我們的國家語言設置中心次長您了解我的意思嗎那最後第三個我關切的就是說我們只有看到研究典藏"},{"start":17599.057,"end":17627.256,"text":"任務沒有推廣發展但是語言復正跟傳承才是我們設置這個中心的最重要任務所以我覺得我沒有看到推廣發展的部分都是在典藏典藏研究所以我希望目前草案看不到這樣相關的業務資訊那我希望說我們應該要加強語言環境的友善至少我舉一個簡單的例子就是今年有將近兩萬人去"},{"start":17628.917,"end":17643.472,"text":"自己回復族名但是無論去外交部的你會看到雖然我的身份證有族語跟我的那個並列但是外交部就是堅持用漢語拼音只保留他的漢名或者我們到戶政事務所"},{"start":17644.173,"end":17662.64,"text":"他的表單還是堅持只留他的漢字像這個都是語言發展設置中心應該要去關切觸及的一個範圍所以我在這個地方特別做這樣的提醒希望文化部在我們審查的時候一定要堅持同意嗎?好,謝謝市長,謝謝主席好,謝謝伍麗華委員"},{"start":17668.871,"end":17682.377,"text":"二、邀請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在、何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不在、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在、請洪孟凱委員"},{"start":17691.331,"end":17712.835,"text":"主席謝謝是不是主席可以請文化部次長還有我們客委會跟園民會的主委請李次長、谷主委還有曾主委李次長我先請教因為今天文化部次長表示臺灣台語沒有侵犯臺灣其他語言並存的地位的意思"},{"start":17713.322,"end":17732.021,"text":"但看到教育部把這個閩南語語言認證變成是臺灣台語然後又看到說監察委員要調查各大車站內臺語廣播腔調不一致跟發音錯誤的問題我們想要請教一下這代表什麼代表現在是臺灣台語只容許一種臺灣台語的發音存在嗎"},{"start":17734.051,"end":17748.123,"text":"監察院的這個調查並不是文化部這邊去投訴票所以這我們也尊重監察院、監察委員他們的職責可是對文化部來講我們沒有要推動所謂的單一的腔調"},{"start":17749.784,"end":17775.342,"text":"沒有推動台語腔調因為各地方的腔調其實也是我們所謂的臺語的優美之處或是說特色之處像我來自我的老家在南投我一聽到有一些是大公這個台語的時候我就一聽我就知道說他應該就是從中部過來那當然問題在於是說在保存臺語文化的一個部分現在把它證明變成是臺灣台語到底有沒有尊重到我們臺灣其他的語言"},{"start":17777.063,"end":17800.857,"text":"包括說客語包括我們的原住民很多的語言這也是大家會大家會覺得奇怪的地方啊是跟委員報告因為語言的名稱的部分我們是依照國際的慣例或者是國際組織來講語言的名稱由使用該語言的人他們自稱為習慣好所以我們經過調查"},{"start":17802.658,"end":17825.836,"text":"使用台語的族群他們慣用有85%的人慣用台語這個詞來自稱他們的語言所以我們在建議的書面用語上就把這個名稱放下去可是在口語上不論是大家習慣用什麼樣的方式來自稱這個我們都沒有問題啊台語本來大家都講台語但是台語是什麼的簡稱"},{"start":17826.836,"end":17851.926,"text":"臺語是臺灣米蘭語的簡稱可是你今天是把臺灣米蘭語的簡稱之後然後你又在前面再加入臺灣兩個字變成是臺灣台語這樣就變成是臺語它就是一個專有名詞那專有名詞不就代表是說會讓大家就誤認為是說只有臺語代表整個臺灣上面2350萬人所講的語言那這樣是不是就無形當中就把我們的客語就把我們的原住民的語言給忽視了呢"},{"start":17852.606,"end":17881.95,"text":"而且更重要你剛有提到沒有這個意思可是外界就會有這樣的狀況啊所以我們需要多張說明市長那我就請教你剛講的是說這個是我們共同使用語言的狀況我也都是用臺語啊但是我認知的臺語就是臺灣米蘭語然後就是韓國我們所使用的一個範圍嘛那如果要用臺灣台語請教今天有一個外國人來到台灣他想要問欸你們現在講的語言是什麼那我請教臺灣台語的英文要怎麼翻"},{"start":17883.122,"end":17899.127,"text":"臺灣台語臺灣台語是的但如果說是你要怎麼解釋呢就台語是一個語言的名稱這個名稱就叫台語就像我們對很多任何一個物品你給它一個名稱以後它就是一個專有名詞"},{"start":17899.915,"end":17927.829,"text":"所以它現在還是變成是你會變成是它是英去翻這樣的意思你就是創一個新的詞是的 對不對我們就不用所謂的以前可能會用Taiwanese來代表台語可是在英文稱呼上面其實文化部有客尊一個希望能夠尊重國家語言所以我們在英文名稱上就很清楚的標示就是台語所以這樣子你就是在創另外一個新的名詞但這樣新的名詞是不是就讓外國人有可能誤會"},{"start":17928.809,"end":17950.446,"text":"我們臺灣上面這塊土地上面大家講的語言會沒有其他的語言來我再請教一下來我再請教一下我們的客戶會主委主委剛聽這樣子的講法我想雖然你們今天上午都已經講過就互相尊重了但說實在話"},{"start":17953.173,"end":17978.346,"text":"因為我的選區不管是淡水、山芝也有很多的客家鄉親甚至之前新北市有差不多兩萬的客家鄉親其實是從淡水這邊來做一個發跡的所以我們也想問如果說今天臺灣台語它這樣確立了那這樣子臺語就變成是一個專有名詞那會無形當中會讓其他的國際友人也會認為是說臺灣這塊土地上面好像沒有其他的語言存在"},{"start":17979.316,"end":17990.141,"text":"英語是這樣說的,就屬於維尼語言：主委你是要本席也帶上這個翻譯還是說,我其實是聽不懂客語的,不好意思用國語,用華語"},{"start":17996.964,"end":18017.051,"text":"包括客語、原住民語、臺語這個都是國家語言那現在這個書面上呢它是優先建議,它只是建議所以我們在客委會來說並沒有一定要使用這個或那個那就客家人的立場來說稱呼臺語或閩南語都叫做Holo法"},{"start":18021.672,"end":18036.466,"text":"所以我們是用我們的主體我們由我們的主體來說他稱我現在講的是說文化部用這樣子的定義以你站在客委會主委的一個角度來講有沒有客家鄉親跟你反映"},{"start":18036.846,"end":18060.288,"text":"有 那客家鄉親跟你反映你怎麼做是 客家鄉親那個時候的反映我們建議說那我們再請文化部一起再來開國家語言的會議增加了三場的客語的會議 客家語言的會議所以在這個會議當中大家有充分的在討論當然 那文化部有接受你的建議嗎"},{"start":18062.25,"end":18081.622,"text":"應該是這麼說啦我覺得在這個階段其實我們是尊重每一個人的每一個族群的說法那這樣子才有可能展現出我們多元包容的這個特質這個也是台灣很美好很重要的一個特質因為不同嘛"},{"start":18082.102,"end":18100.509,"text":"主委就是因為本席尊重多元包容的特質也因此才會覺得說為什麼本來無疑是何處惹塵來突然間文化部要在今年我不知道是不是滿足某些人的政治意識形態這個你也不用回答啦這個你也不用幫忙文化部回答啦但我意思是說"},{"start":18101.309,"end":18121.937,"text":"不知道是滿足某些人的特定政治意識形態：也因此突然間要做這樣的一個改名的動作變成是臺灣台語好像獨尊了之後反而造成我們其他語言的一個部分那當然原住民委員會的主委你有沒有反應我們的族人有沒有跟你講是說如果臺灣台語這樣定下來的話好像會獨尊一方"},{"start":18122.847,"end":18147.273,"text":"我不是說都尊重我知道你們今天已經大帽子扣下來我相信你們兩個委員會說實在話本身在中央部會也是比較弱勢的委員會所以你們也許也不敢有意見但我現在問的是你們的族人我現在給你一個機會讓你在國會殿堂上幫你們族人講話"},{"start":18149.24,"end":18178.206,"text":"連這樣子都不敢幫族人講話還是表達你們族人的心聲族人聽到說要變成臺灣台語的時候都沒有任何意見族人的心聲是因為我們自己就稱自己是原住民跟我們就尊重臺語他怎麼講就怎麼樣來尊重所以今天講臺灣台語他可能喊瓜了就變成是好像臺灣在臺灣是講台語的那我們原住民的話反而變成是比較沒有被重視到了我們不會有這樣感覺"},{"start":18179.366,"end":18204.591,"text":"就是原住民本來就是就是單獨的是一個原住民那尊重其他的族群啊?對,說實在話本席也有原住民的朋友也有原住民的親戚我覺得在國會殿堂上面還是要幫各族群為什麼要成立客委會為什麼要成立原住民委員會還是要為特定的委員會的人士來做發聲"},{"start":18206.206,"end":18225.952,"text":"不是說一個政治意識形態可以把我們台灣變成是一言堂如果說台灣真的變一言堂的話我覺得這樣子會非常可悲台灣的美、台灣的好就是多元、包容、文化、特色而不是政治意識形態掛帥把我們過去認知的全部都一筆抹殺謝謝"},{"start":18232.758,"end":18233.84,"text":"黃國昌委員邀請原民會曾主委"},{"start":18258.24,"end":18281.415,"text":"委員好曾主委您好行政院院長佐隆泰在總質詢的說我們政府用錢不可以浪費公帑變預算不可以浪費公帑執行預算可不可以浪費公帑可以嗎不能浪費公帑不能浪費公帑嗎 非常好不好意思"},{"start":18285.919,"end":18292.765,"text":"人民會前主委花了145萬的公帑出個人成果專刊60頁都是他個人活動的照片這是一個浪費公帑"},{"start":18303.629,"end":18320.684,"text":"跟委員報告齁除了這些照片他還是有一些這個那個時候的一些成果我們你有看過內容嗎我有大概看過他裡面有成果的部分跟園民會自己本身的成果專刊兩者之間的內容你有沒有比較過是有比較過他是他就是這個這裡面有之前園民會的專刊沒有的內容嗎"},{"start":18333.234,"end":18344.304,"text":"有嗎?這樣有沒有浪費公帑?有沒有浪費公帑都不敢回答喔?我要給你清楚的表明啊!"},{"start":18356.414,"end":18381.15,"text":"這百分之一百是浪費公帑啦拿納稅人的錢做個人自我宣傳可以這樣幹喔我上一次質詢的時候我已經請你們原民會的同仁講清楚喔在預算書裡面編在哪一個向下去支出這筆錢的因為我找不到嘛因為我找不到嘛"},{"start":18382.29,"end":18408.511,"text":"他們後來隨便跟我講了一個名目叫做推動原住民族政策法規制度處理族群關係及本會嚴考業務之規劃與執行所需經費向下但問題是這個向下全部喔只有139萬那我就看不懂了啊剛我念了那一長串了這麼多的工作要做"},{"start":18409.964,"end":18435.206,"text":"結果編了139萬那這個卻花了145萬出他個人的寫真集不好意思我就直接這樣講出他個人的寫真集那其他的錢從哪裡來我剛講那一長串的向下全部的錢拿來用在這裡都還不夠還要從別的地方挪是不是可以請主委承諾我一個禮拜之內"},{"start":18436.971,"end":18452.521,"text":"這個專刊從哪一些向下撥過來的說清楚講明白一個禮拜之內書面回覆因為這個會期是預算會期嘛我看到你們今年的預算書又有我剛剛講的那一長串"},{"start":18456.37,"end":18481.509,"text":"文字一模一樣推動原住民族政策法規制度處理族群關係及本會研考業務費用規劃質詢所需經費今年增加了去年是一百三十四萬今年增加到一百六十二萬來 主委今年你們預算書裡面啊剛我念的那一長串的向下的一百六十二萬你會不會拿來出這個不會絕對不會嘛絕對不會"},{"start":18484.835,"end":18504.695,"text":"那奇怪了那你們去年在做這件事情的時候我剛講的那一長串的東西顯然沒有這個業務需求嘛因為所有的錢拿去給主委出個人專刊都不夠了哪有錢做其他的事啊那代表了這個經費不是很需要啊怎麼今年又變了162萬"},{"start":18506.277,"end":18528.027,"text":"我們要做就是整個會裡面不會出個人的,或者是這個就出個人的啊!我不會再出個人的了你不會再出個人的嗎?不會不會好,非常好喔來來,我們再往下看今天喔,司法法制跟內政聯席會啊我們審查先停一下"},{"start":18531.511,"end":18558.686,"text":"奇怪這個是這個是沒有電那個我先跟主委溝通一個問題可能你上任沒多久但我覺得行政跟立法彼此之前我們黨團發文給你所知就請你提供資料我們發文給你所知客客氣氣的問你你去帛琉的行程結果你們發兩張新聞稿回我們黨團"},{"start":18560.031,"end":18589.005,"text":"搞到今天我必須要透過臨時提案的方式請你交你的行程出來沒有需要搞成這個樣子吧主委你認不認同認同你回去問一下會裡的人好不好好當初是誰決定發兩張新聞稿給我的好我們是立法委員我用黨團的名義去所知欸結果你發兩份新聞稿給我們今天我本來在考慮是不是要提前責案"},{"start":18590.776,"end":18610.606,"text":"我真的在考慮要不要提前責案請主委回去了解清楚啊原民會哪一個同仁對於我發文去所知決定發兩個新聞稿給我把我當成媒體記者一模一樣給我一個書面報告可以嗎?好,可以,好"},{"start":18611.636,"end":18624.29,"text":"今天上面在審查你們9月公布替用族群的名單因為有原住民的委員要求有幾職要把他改成無幾職那你照理來講有族群名單這件事情"},{"start":18630.88,"end":18653.178,"text":"有族群委員這件事情感覺起來是對原住民好啊竟然有原住民的委員提案要從有幾職改成無幾職啊所以這個提案我就非常聚精會神的去看16個16個16個替用委員一年需要多少經費 主委知不知道大概2200萬左右2200萬一個人一年要多少"},{"start":18661.018,"end":18689.027,"text":"他一個月大概是八萬嘛一年大概就是一百萬左右不只啦你把那個細目啊把它全部弄出來啊我算過啦包括一些什麼有的沒有的補貼啦加班費啦所有的東西加起來十六個人兩千兩百萬一個人一年一百三十五萬嘛我一百三十五萬一年一百三十五萬喔"},{"start":18690.305,"end":18712.241,"text":"哇 這個工作即使在公務體系裡面應該也是很好的工作嘛主委我這樣說沒有錯吧是待遇應該是非常好嘛是所以我就很關心嘛阿你們這些聘用委員到底是怎麼選出來的嘛我們先把基本的事實釐清啦這些聘用委員第一個不是選舉出來的對不對"},{"start":18715.116,"end":18743.055,"text":"第二、也不是國家考試出來的對不對第三、也不是原民會自己辦的考試出來的對不對我看了這個林聘辦法我看了這個林聘辦法這個條件很寬鬆啦大概只要是熱心族群服務或深愛原住民事務深欲卓著就有資格了這個辦法是你們定的嘛那後面又講喔後面又講說"},{"start":18746.198,"end":18775.252,"text":"委員之臨提必要的時候可以召開審查委員會審議嗎那你在提這些人的時候你有召開審查委員會嗎不是就是我們把所有他們所有可以自己推也可以自己推薦自己也可以團體來推薦沒有關係啦我只問你有召開審查委員會議嗎7月的時候有來做一個審就說一個初審所以沒有我們臺灣是法治國家你認同吧是"},{"start":18775.97,"end":18800.899,"text":"那既然是法治國家就要依法行政嘛那既然要依法行政你不是有一個林聘要點嗎林聘要點說必要的時候要開審查會議嘛那我的問題很簡單你有沒有開這個審查會議有還是沒有在七月的時候七月五號的時候有開呢開了多久就是把所有的資料整理一下我是問開了多久我不是問你整理哪些資料開了多久"},{"start":18802.247,"end":18829.267,"text":"那個旁邊的同仁喔請你在旁邊這個會議你有沒有參加差不多是一小時這個會議你有沒有參加我沒有參加但是我是有看這些資料等一下等一下等一下你說這個審查委員會你沒有參加喔我有把資料先看等一下等一下我先評一下這個會議你有沒有參加你有參加還是沒有參加我沒有參加你連這個會議都沒有參加喔但是所有的資料我都看過"},{"start":18831.963,"end":18856.915,"text":"哇我的天啊好好好所有的資料都看過嘛那一天審查委員會的時候的會議資料這15個人履歷表有沒有交上來15個人的履歷表有對有交還沒有交全部都有啊 履歷表都有沒有啊16個啊No 沒有我今天上午上面問你們副主委你們副主委跟我說他有參加這個審查會"},{"start":18858.697,"end":18885.658,"text":"那我就問他第一個問題審查會有哪些書面資料他講不出來那我就認了一下欸奇怪欸這審查會很重要欸要好好審查嘛一個人一年一百三十五萬欸十五個人審一個小時欸非常神速啊我聽到這個效率我大驚失色啊我就進一步追問那請問有哪些審查資料"},{"start":18887.575,"end":18914.962,"text":"他認在那裡然後我問他說那請問有履歷表嗎他跟我說沒有然後我問他說那有什麼審查資料他說有一份名單他說有一份名單然後上面有這15個人的名字我的老天啊主委你按照這個這個這個林聘要點啊上面的規定所開的審查會議啊連履歷表都沒有啊只有名單啊"},{"start":18916.294,"end":18941.869,"text":"主委你知不知道這件事啊還是你上面有給指令好好審查結果被你指派要審查的人根本在渾水摸魚情況到底是怎麼樣因為我剛才知道原來你沒有參加這個審查會議嗎因為所有他們的這個履歷表就是有投進來的履歷表我都有看過啦奇怪你有看過那些審查委員都沒看所以那個審查會議是在過水嗎"},{"start":18944.791,"end":18962.69,"text":"那奇怪 如果不是在過水 主委你可不可以跟大家解釋一下那他們那天開的審查會議 連履歷表都沒有 是在幹什麼因為這是你們副主委當面跟我講的啦你們旁邊那位處長 剛在上面的時候 你也有參與討論嘛你全部都有聽到嘛"},{"start":18964.192,"end":18991.065,"text":"他就是這樣跟我講的啊我大驚失色啊我想說哇一年一百三十五萬待遇這麼好的職位在開審查會議的時候一張座只有人命連履歷表都沒有這太憨了不好意思我不應該用那個不好意思我不太確定你是不是可以聽得懂臺灣台語所以我換另外一個話講就是說你會不會覺得太扯了"},{"start":18992.574,"end":19019.094,"text":"你以主委的高度告訴全體國人你會不會覺得太扯了因為這幾個人的這個履歷表我都有看過他們就是說整個整理起來這些人全部都是你挑的嗎不是我不是我挑的不是我全部不是我挑的不是你挑那是誰挑的就是我這個還要提報上去報上去這個是業長我先提一下這15個人裡面有沒有不是你提報的人有啊"},{"start":19022.254,"end":19033.653,"text":"這裡面有不是你提報的人喔來來來你跟大家講一下這15個委員有哪些不是你提報的人那等於是什麼行政院院長跳過你他自己選喔"},{"start":19034.713,"end":19051.539,"text":"是嗎因為我們提報不會說一個組如果說一個組如果很多就是很多人他們的這個推薦的幾件的人很多那我們就不會只有提報一個人對啦所以這裡面是不是都在你的提報名單裡還是裡面有人不是你提報的"},{"start":19053.444,"end":19082.253,"text":"有人不是我提報的那個會後再請主委跟大家用書面回覆我這15個人裡面有哪些不在你的提報名單上這樣可以嗎可以一個禮拜之內交上來可以嗎好這個事情為什麼重要因為原民會組織法怎麼規定的原民會組織法是要由主委提報給行政院院長任命那你今天解開大家的疑惑啦"},{"start":19083.362,"end":19111.22,"text":"原來裡面有委員不是你主委提報的欸等於是行政院院長跳過你欸塞他自己想要的人欸行政院院長可以幹這種事喔這個是嚴重喔請你回去徹查裡面有哪些人不是你提報的結果竟然是我們行政院院長任命的記得喔一個禮拜之內喔你在國會殿堂說裡面有人不是你提報的嘛好來我們來進一步看一下"},{"start":19112.706,"end":19132.693,"text":"這裡面的人有立委的助理有立委的執行長還有在幫民進黨一個特定的村在當聯絡人的充滿了一片綠油油、愁容的色彩還有參選、落選的那你這好康啊人是怎麼選的"},{"start":19138.285,"end":19158.074,"text":"喂!這好康啊!各位委員報告,這個 嚴明會成立28年以來本來就有這樣的一個這個族群委員一直都是這樣一直都是拿來酬庸的一直都是拿來養莊養角的,是嗎?老今天齁,我不跟你談藍綠啦國民黨執政幹這種事情我照樣批判啦民進黨執政幹這種事情主委你認同嗎?"},{"start":19167.401,"end":19193.563,"text":"你認同嗎?你以主委的高度你認同嗎?你認不認同?你也不認同嗎?好!好好的回去檢討這個制度你作為原民會的主委你今天有勇氣在國會殿堂裡面拉出你的高度現任的原民會主委也不認同我們的原民會聘用委員"},{"start":19195.823,"end":19223.465,"text":"給民進黨政府拿來這樣酬庸之用你這句話講得好有道德勇氣我給你一個讚這些人到底是怎麼選出來的我接下來一定會往下追查我一定會要行政院院長卓榮泰給大家一個交代時間的關係我雖然後面沒委員但我也不好意思耽誤所有的官員陪我在這邊繼續問你徐委員召委的時間我也要尊重好 謝謝"},{"start":19228.002,"end":19247.729,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員登記發言的委員除不在場者其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束委員高金素梅、呂玉玲、蘇清泉、丁學忠、邱振軍所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":19249.089,"end":19274.982,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分．請相關單位於一週內．以書面答覆並複製本會最後主席再次強調．請各列席單位書面報告．應確實依開會通知單．所定送達時間準時送達．並請準備口頭以及書面報告各位列席單位大家辛苦了"},{"start":19276.887,"end":19279.029,"text":"本日會議到此結束 現在散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:36 - 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.965,"end":2353.582,"text":"農產品的品質在生產端我們叫做生產品質生產品質農民的部分一定會很認真的去把它維護可是到了消費端的時候就是所謂的消費品質這個之間就需要很多冷鏈的部分跟物流的部分去確保"},{"start":2354.082,"end":2376.202,"text":"那過去4年裡面我們已經打造了大概3處的旗艦型14處的區域冷面的中心那另外針對40個批發市場包括農漁區的部分然後還有最後端的這些農民團體我們也實施了相關的冷面的補助那我們最主要的目的就是建構我們全台灣的整個冷面的物流網"},{"start":2376.863,"end":2376.883,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":2393.588,"end":2415.51,"text":"農業送的這樣的一個物流網絡的話不僅它的宅配的這些費用能夠降低到大概約原來的70%然後甚至於它可以B2B的部分就是大宗運輸也可以通過這個系統然後小農對小農的部分到宅配的部分也可以通過這個系統然後甚至於線上實體整個的物流漲額也可以利用這個系統"},{"start":2416.731,"end":2439.949,"text":"現在這個系統我想目前已經有211家的農會已經加入了那我們目標就是說至少所有的大概342家農業會裡面至少有300家的農業會能夠參加那這樣的話農業會就是我們很多物流網的一個收送的一個節點那這樣對農民未來在取貨在送貨的時候就有很大的一個幫助"},{"start":2441.403,"end":2462.26,"text":"外交的部分一直是我們努力的目標,特別是我們希望說爭取大陸與中國以外的這些高端市場所以我們除了持續去強化我們的供應鏈以外,我們也特別針對一些市場進入到一個新興國家的這些防險的一個談判或是協商的部分"},{"start":2462.78,"end":2491.581,"text":"那在113年好像113年鳳梨外銷日韓等的高飛市場已經提高的非常多大概從去年的1.5萬噸到今年的2萬噸已經提高將近四分之一那整個的一個紐西蘭的部分還有紅紅果的部分在今年的6月也已經同意我們輸出這些東西都是我們大家一起努力的一個結果那更重要就是說開拓這些市場原來的市場的時候包括美國加拿大新加坡還有"},{"start":2492.817,"end":2513.362,"text":"東南亞的越南、泰國、菲律賓等他們在整個的農產品的一個我們外銷的一個成長比例都有很明顯的一個增長特別在水果的部分那相對的美國的部分成長的將近1倍、1.5倍那在日本的部分也有成長韓國的部分、紐西蘭的部分都有逐步的一個成長"},{"start":2516.557,"end":2516.717,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":2537.295,"end":2558.2,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":2558.72,"end":2584.443,"text":"經營主體都是做我們後端的品牌的一個行銷所以我們透過一級二轉三加酸的部分特別在二級稻本身我們也推動了一些二級稻不重量的獎勵我們希望說透過這樣子一個極端產區加上透過推動優質米的一個種植能夠讓我們的產地的稻穀的價格能夠有效的提升那我們目標就是3年之內大概讓整體的產地價格能夠提高3塊以上"},{"start":2586.394,"end":2612.753,"text":"那第二個部分在續勤生產的部分那不管是養豬場的一個升級或是續勤場的一個升級我們持續在推動那特別在養豬場的升級是有相當的一個成效包括它的一個高床的一個節水的設施然後異地批次或自動化省工的設施的導入那這個部分我想我們也會持續在做那在養勤的部分其實也有非常多的養勤場包括在113年有97場已經來申請這種"},{"start":2616.195,"end":2616.395,"text":"﹚立法院第1會議"},{"start":2637.765,"end":2647.198,"text":"在落農產業的部分來講大概大家知道就是明年就是台紐的貿易協定生效那個牛奶的部分在零關稅"},{"start":2648.953,"end":2648.973,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":2668.484,"end":2697.119,"text":"我們會有效的去引導我們的弱農做計劃性的一個生產同時透過乳牛的死亡保險來確保整個乳牛的滋素來做一個有效的調控那在消費端的部分我想我們會積極推動國產鮮乳或是國產牛奶的這些相關的標章我們希望說透過有效的這樣的一個產品的區隔來引導來擴大我們國人消費國產牛奶的一個習慣"},{"start":2698.681,"end":2709.243,"text":"最後就是另外在乳牛在淘汰以後變成肉牛產業的時候我們也會持續去升級它的相關的一個那個屠宰場 屠宰的衛生一個改善"},{"start":2713.083,"end":2728.528,"text":"在漁業的部分我們還是持續推動一些相關的科技的一個導入然後比較重要的就是有兩個部分一個部分就是我們會擴大養殖區的統籌供水的量能特別是在高頻地區有很多的漁運本身都是各自拉管"},{"start":2729.068,"end":2747.734,"text":"那各自拉管的部分像這次颱風在大莊的部分就很多管線因此而斷掉所以我們會加速整個養殖區的統籌供水的量能然後透過這樣的量能讓我們的漁業的一個水資源能夠更有效的能夠獲得那同樣的我們也會針對漁船的一個數位服務做有效的推動"},{"start":2748.414,"end":2748.675,"text":"致詳詳情報告"},{"start":2765.199,"end":2790.151,"text":"那同樣的在整個的水資源的部分吼那我們還是一如既往的就是我們針對整個灌溉蓄水的設施的一個調度我們會做有效的一個調度然後針對老舊的這些軍路我們做興善然後針對灌區外的這些過去沒有灌溉系統的部分我們也會增加這個灌溉系統的一個興建部件整個自衛型的灌溉系統"},{"start":2790.911,"end":2814.543,"text":"那特別是在整個的這些水資源去建立一個農業生產基地的過程中那也非常重要就是我們也會針對整個產品的一個品種的一個更新然後在遇到天災的時候我們也會完善整個的災前的預警然後還有一個災中的一個應變也希望說我們真的農業能夠達到真正的一個韌性化"},{"start":2815.902,"end":2822.103,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":2837.947,"end":2838.147,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2868.601,"end":2874.65,"text":"設備的這個導入來提高它的一個玻璃的耐受性那灘災的部分我想"},{"start":2875.762,"end":2902.612,"text":"特別在凱米颱風跟山陀爾颱風來這兩次的颱風其實它受災的情況是大面積的而且是品項是相對多的部分那怎麼樣讓整個的一個勘災跟後面的救災的過程中真正的達到所謂的從寬從速從險的一個目的所以我們一直積極的推動第一個就是有關於整個指數型的天災認定的標準"},{"start":2903.172,"end":2920.44,"text":"所以我們已經啟動了一個團隊真正的要去確認如果說你的天災的一個風力或是雨量達到某一個程度的時候那就不用現場看災的直接開天然災害的一個救助那同樣的我們也會透過保險的方式"},{"start":2921.06,"end":2921.541,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2936.576,"end":2936.756,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2953.74,"end":2969.396,"text":"那下一部分是有關於堆疊式的部分那整個農業的的一個支持其實我們的目的是針對農民的耕作模式跟農民的耕作方法我們去表彰去表彰他"},{"start":2970.357,"end":2991.276,"text":"農民對這片土地的守護的貢獻,我再次強調,其實我們的整個對地自給付是為了整個農業的永續,也為了表彰我們農民他的耕作的模式是符合生態的方式,符合我們糧食安全的需求,去做一個表彰。所以在整個的一個設計上面,除了一個基本的對地給付以外,"},{"start":2991.776,"end":2991.796,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":3015.898,"end":3016.078,"text":"主席"},{"start":3034.677,"end":3057.833,"text":"下一部分是針對整個的生態的一個永續的部分那最重要的就是我們擴大了相關的有機有膳的一個產交履歷的一個面積那持續的推動那相關的面積已經達到了有機有膳已經達到2萬6千多公頃那整個履歷的面積也達到10萬多公頃那這樣子的一個成績是在東南亞國家是少見的那我們希望說"},{"start":3058.553,"end":3068.941,"text":"透過這樣有機友善或是產交履歷能夠確保我們的消費端的一個農產品的一個安全以外也能夠達到環境的一個有效特別是有機友善的推動"},{"start":3070.236,"end":3094.455,"text":"那在農藥化學減量特別是在風險減半的部分那事實上農藥的使用是是必要之二因為當病毒要來的時候如果說你沒有辦法有效的防範的時候農產品都會有巨大的損失但是農藥的精準用藥就是我們想要推的還有就是整個農藥它有它的高風險跟低風險然後我們的策略就是把劇毒農藥這種高風險的農藥退場因為"},{"start":3097.577,"end":3112.908,"text":"他噴的時候不僅是對農民有害對農作物、對土地也不好所以我們針對所謂劇毒農藥的一個退場這個部分我們做得非常快速到目前為止我們比基期年減少了73.6%的部分"},{"start":3115.349,"end":3140.647,"text":"第二部分我們會持續推動相關的這些生物農藥還有生物防治的天敵還有一些免登資材的一個補助那這樣子的一個補助的方式就是說你不要用一個化學肥料的這種傷害土壤土地資源的方式用一些比較親和的比較友善的這些資材能夠同樣防範所謂的這些作物這是我想我們"},{"start":3141.087,"end":3146.562,"text":"未來在推動的那還有我們的植物診療師的部分能夠協助農民更精準的用藥的一個判斷"},{"start":3148.376,"end":3172.862,"text":"那在食農教育的部分我們還是會持續去推動最重要就是說我們希望特別是在減少就是食物浪費這個部分相關的這些培養均衡的飲食的觀念是一個食農教育最核心的一個精神然後也會推動所謂的在地的農產的一個消費的部分那特別是在整個的一個食農教育的過程中我們同步把"},{"start":3174.82,"end":3186.18,"text":"國產的可塑鹽食材導入到學校的營養午餐裡面去那到目前為止整個學校用我們的國產可塑鹽的食材已經達到98.7這是一個非常亮麗的一個成果"},{"start":3187.116,"end":3204.06,"text":"那在寵物的部分我想寵物是我們的家人的特別是我想我們到目前為止光犬和貓全台灣就有179萬隻那幾乎它的比例是在東南亞屬於比較高密度的"},{"start":3204.36,"end":3204.48,"text":"主席"},{"start":3220.035,"end":3238.903,"text":"有一個專法這個專法我們預計在年底之前會送到行政院去審議然後送到立法院來審核那整個寵物食品的專法裡面包括從食品的來源從食品的製造跟這些業者的一個管理跟上市的這些標準我們會做一個完整的規劃那另外"},{"start":3239.423,"end":3262.643,"text":"其實寵物食品是一個非常重要以外那另外怎麼樣確保動物的一個保護那特別是我們也修正了動物的一個展演的管理辦法讓動物他做必要的表演是在一個許可的範圍之內而不是變成是一個取悅於人民而已就是民眾而已的一個表演行為那另外我們也登"},{"start":3263.343,"end":3263.564,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3283.001,"end":3307.802,"text":"那在森林的部分大概分為三個部分就是包括生態的永續、淨林的永續跟產業的永續這是森林很重要的三個部分那整個生態的永續我們會持續針對國土綠網包括45個保育軸帶跟44個關注區甚至於包括OECM的部分我們都會持續的去做有效的盤點那第二部分是在淨林永續的部分那淨林永續的部分是結合我們的自然攤位"},{"start":3308.602,"end":3322.264,"text":"我們也會做獎勵的照領,我們也會做竹林的更新,然後希望透過這些獎勵照領跟竹林的更新,能夠讓我們的二氧化碳做一個有效的吸收。"},{"start":3323.846,"end":3350.076,"text":"林業還是一個非常重要的一個產業那我們怎麼樣讓這個產業持續的發展那過往我們對林業的產業輔導並不多但是這幾年來其實我們針對林產業的部分特別是我們輔導他成立為農合作社然後提供一些比較大型的機具讓他去採伐然後也公告了一些林下經濟然後希望說在執林的過程中你可以透過林下經濟得到一些收入"},{"start":3351.096,"end":3351.537,"text":"彭博文議員"},{"start":3359.912,"end":3382.41,"text":"那後續的引導的過程包括我們整個的科技的引導的部分我們也會持續的落實那還有一個部分就是剩餘制裁的部分剩餘制裁是大家所關切的也是淨零碳白裡面一個非常重要的一個手段那到目前為止包括一些用廢胎公包的部分還有一些隔外品的部分還有牡蠣殼的部分我們都有效的把它變成一個再利用的一個商品"},{"start":3383.01,"end":3409.683,"text":"那特別在鳳梨的這些全果利用的部分包括鳳梨皮的這些纖維的利用包括鳳梨酵素的部分這個部分我們也有相關的一些業者開始投入一些相關的這些場域那銀河灣的部分我想我們也會針對銀河灣的部分有些剩餘資產變成燃料棒的部分也會持續的推動最後一部分是有關於信吾農村的部分那信吾農村的部分大概"},{"start":3410.816,"end":3439.856,"text":"一個非常重要的概念就是我們會發展未來農業我們會發展以農村為發展中心的整個農業的一個體系農村不再是一個獨立生產的那農村裡面不只是生產農村我們更希望導入更多的多元的一個產業然後我們更希望能夠建構農村的一個支持的服務系統那來鼓勵我們的青年農民來回鄉這個部分我想這是我們下一階段農業部門一個非常重要的一個施政的一個目標"},{"start":3441.137,"end":3462.833,"text":"在這裡面特別是在整個農業的支持系統裡面綠色照顧就變了一個非常重要的它是建構去支持農村的一個非常重要的支持系統所以我們過去幾年我們一直在推動整個農村社區的一個從綠飲食綠療育綠陪伴到綠場域這四個環節裡面我們都希望透過這樣的一個"},{"start":3465.136,"end":3466.638,"text":"最後我想跟各位說明"},{"start":3479.008,"end":3502.892,"text":"讓臺灣農業持續成為一個永續而且韌性的一個產業讓我們農民成為一個高度專業的職業這是我在520的時候向外界宣示的我農業部未來的很多資源投入會透過我們的四大施政的策略手段包括智慧、韌性、永續、安心來達到我們上述的目標那也謝謝委員給我們大力的支持跟指正謝謝"},{"start":3508.907,"end":3536.992,"text":"謝謝農業部陳部長的報告今天是這個農業部的業務報告我看這個應該是各個師各個處各個署的署長都在親自列席我看八個師六個處七個署一個中心都有由師處署長列席農經署由副署長出席這個也沒有請假"},{"start":3538.157,"end":3538.637,"text":"請問在場的委員請問上次會議事錄有錯誤"},{"start":3568.888,"end":3584.194,"text":"沒有 那我們就一速度確定來 我們現在要進行詢問 委員詢問之前願意做幾點宣告 每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘 BS等於延長2分鐘 非本會委員4分鐘"},{"start":3588.699,"end":3613.852,"text":"當時我必須還是要跟大家拜託一下為了讓會議能夠順利進行以及每位委員發言事件的公平性以及不要影響到下一位委員發言的權益在各位委員諮詢時間結束之後主席會立即請諮詢委員停止諮詢也讓下一位委員能夠接下來諮詢請各位委員能夠配合感謝我們在上午10點"},{"start":3616.298,"end":3626.85,"text":"30分 截止法院登記首先 請登記第一位 請您代話委員好 主席有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":3634.416,"end":3640.838,"text":"部長 本席想針對我們高雄市連兩次風災 凱米颱風跟山頭颱風我們的農災損目前兩個颱風加起來都多達4億5千萬以上這個還可能在相關的數目還在累積當中所以對於我們在災害補助的"},{"start":3658.562,"end":3658.722,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3675.874,"end":3703.061,"text":"好那這個東西我要問的是在我們這兩次颱風在高雄市所提出來的方案您這個直接適不適用好在我們光是以三頭而來講這個氣象中央氣象署就已經講了我們已經風速達到14級甚至我們高雄都有達到15級按照農業天然災害救助辦法就以我翻石流來講最大的震數是每秒41.5"},{"start":3705.021,"end":3705.641,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3728.746,"end":3743.679,"text":"這樣就好了呢?還是還有什麼作業?所以請你明確定義什麼叫做免勘災?我跟委員說明齁,就是當一個農業,農品項要做勘災公告的時候,第一個要打20%,那"},{"start":3746.744,"end":3747.404,"text":"有啊,我們針頭就有啦"},{"start":3774.093,"end":3792.809,"text":"沒有 所以有一些品項他有公告的 風速達到某個層級 雨量達到某個層級就可以公告我只問這次的山陀而颱風重創高雄中央計像署已經有講他已經14級以上了那這樣的標準我還要啟動是否可能夠符合點要看錯誤要看錯誤"},{"start":3794.751,"end":3795.071,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3813.154,"end":3827.618,"text":"要不要再下去看?還是就直接報上你就合併了?這叫做免勘渣呀!不是,我跟委員報告齁就是當整個要達到免勘渣的一個程度就是縣政府會報上來對,我們報上來啦對,然後在報上來的時候我們會開專家會議去確認"},{"start":3831.9,"end":3843.367,"text":"你確認所以是要下去再勘測一次?不是,我們跟縣市政府有協調,縣市政府要報這個免勘測的時候其實他已經同時有邀請了我們的改良場所跟我們農糧署去現場看了,所以在現場看了以後"},{"start":3848.83,"end":3855.254,"text":"市政府已經看我簡報的第4頁我瞭解我非常瞭解那你到底什麼時候合我合你這個程序市政府都照著做了嘛我知道那你合不合呢我們會合我們會經過專家會議會議去確認你會去合專家會議是書面審嗎"},{"start":3865.544,"end":3887.718,"text":"專家會議就是不會去現場看我們會針對那專家會什麼時候核實核定你告訴我就好你證據我不管了既然你只要不下去會刊只做書面審那你什麼時候核定文收到之後核實核定我想我們會盡快盡快是什麼一個禮拜兩個禮拜三個禮拜四個禮拜三天內核定這是你的答覆嗎文收到三天內核定是嗎"},{"start":3893.342,"end":3912.068,"text":"昨天我們是昨天下午收到我想我們明天之前一定會核定快的話今天我們也希望說今天越快越好昨天收到了所以今天就會核定了我們今天會開專家會議專家會議完了以後還要經過行政人員今天本期下午就有會刊就在我們大寮這邊那我就把你這個好消息帶下去那你們也有派員"},{"start":3912.628,"end":3912.888,"text":"施政委員"},{"start":3933.267,"end":3957.861,"text":"基本上針對這個案子如果他在一個適當的時間沒辦法播種他原來是申請是大豆的後來他做修正我們原來他是同意的所以是同意我們這個修根這個契作大作無法再播了對但是針對如果是種大豆我們希望他是修根直接是根梨而不去做田青因為田青跟大豆主要屬於豆科的如果"},{"start":3958.701,"end":3974.196,"text":"大豆種不好田青也會管理不好所以你認為我大了這個你直接給我講明你既然有那麼多的指導所以在休耕當中我們是要改做種植田青的對地我們是希望他休耕我們會再跟他溝通希望他做休耕就好不需要就直接分耕就可以領"},{"start":3975.117,"end":3994.882,"text":"好那在餘溫的部分啊光是我們三坨颱風我們在我的選區林園就超過到昨天喔都還沒有完全復電喔都有超過4天5天6天喔看這個這個復電的狀態餘溫打水機無法運作他只要30秒整個整個池就會死光了"},{"start":3995.342,"end":4000.004,"text":"所以在這個餘溫的這個產種所以本席認為救急也要救競爭力不只農漁產損失的補助要從寬從優從速再來針對設施受損你們現在的天然障礙只針對農產品但是沒有針對設施受損"},{"start":4016.63,"end":4031.681,"text":"所以本席建議就是在你的天然災害當中應該納入設施的受損這叫做在就競爭力啊或者你農產品補助之後像現在的風災那麼大我餘溫也翻的公寮也翻了這個農寮也翻了然後我設備進水了那你只補助我農產品的補助"},{"start":4039.207,"end":4066.263,"text":"那設備呢?那個不是競爭力嗎?那個還是人民很從政的負擔欸整個設施都飛走了那你說這個應不應該這是概念的這是您對於這件事情你這邊要做一個這個 允諾這個 救急也要救競爭力設施也應該要納入天然災害的這個設備當中的一個救治項目包括溫網溫網溫網室"},{"start":4069.434,"end":4090.094,"text":"您認不認同?如果你認同就要啟動相關的修改了在現在的規範裡面其實我們都有相關的這些救助設置設備也有補助的部分沒有你們在天然災沒有你是在相關的經常門或者計畫競爭計畫當中有所以說部長天然災救助有啦有啦只要天然災有"},{"start":4092.401,"end":4093.422,"text":"天然災害辦法當中有沒有補助設施受損?"},{"start":4112.984,"end":4142.308,"text":"有有報告委員有所以我們現在我林園的那個餘溫啊那個鋤電都破了啊石壁都破了啊餘溫沒有我我我們要講好齁第一個齁停電的過程中齁發電機我們有我們發電機平常就有在補助了所以他的發電系統是養殖業必要好來我們時間到了所以事實上是沒有請你修改你的天然災害設施辦法好既然現在沒有我現在就希望這些設施都能夠申請優惠貸款可不可以"},{"start":4143.309,"end":4143.669,"text":"邱毅英委員"},{"start":4175.629,"end":4176.031,"text":"請農業部陳部長"},{"start":4186.542,"end":4212.533,"text":"部長早部長我想這一次的颱風啊山陀的颱風對於高雄造成很大的影響那我們應該經濟委員會很多委員都來自高雄部長再讓您看一下這個是這一次風災所造成的溫網市的損害現在大概我們的棗子木瓜都是在溫網市裡頭種植那這一次棗子的受災是很嚴重的"},{"start":4214.054,"end":4241.77,"text":"部長我要請您回答一下就原來我們有一個在凱米颱風的溫王市的設備補助這個申請的日期是到9月30號那不到兩個月的時間又來了一個山陀而這次的風又更大高達17級所以這次很多的溫王市又被吹走了能不能把原來的這個9月30號的申請截止日期往後再延把山陀而颱風所造成的損害把它納進去"},{"start":4242.771,"end":4269.085,"text":"有沒有可能在這部分對農民有一些幫助我想非常謝謝委員：對這個瘟瘡是本身的一個受害的一個補助的一個申請期限的延長的一個關心那我們內部其實也當時在勘栽的時候就有討論到這個問題就是說因為凱米颱風跟山頭颱風它距離非常近那凱米颱風山頭颱風特別是瘋的部分它的它的受損更嚴重所以我們原則上我們會把兩個"},{"start":4270.967,"end":4296.163,"text":"臺風這麼近的臺風的申請期限同步延長到年底所以換句話說你們是不是會再趕快發一個公文你原來是到9月30號所以你現在會把整個申請的期限延長到年底對就是凱米臺風本來到9月30號我們會延長到12月31號然後這次的三朵臺風的話也是同步到12月底所以這個公文是今天可以我想今天應該就可以把它發出去"},{"start":4297.523,"end":4316.973,"text":"來部長這個要再讓您看一下當然這個我們剛剛講到的這個山陀螺的農損這個是我去看整個蜜棗開花的情形他的花已經不會長輝了我們台語說不會長輝昨天這個農糧署的副署長也親自我們到了田區去看了"},{"start":4317.873,"end":4344.195,"text":"大家我想這個你們的專家會議應該也不太需要開啦應該很清楚的都知道這個颱風對於蜜棗對於芭樂所造成的影響這是芭樂樹你有沒有看過這樣倒一整排的芭樂樹還有斷成三節的這是我們去現場看到的芭樂樹就長這樣這個是大寮這一次受風很嚴重的是在大寮陵園地區"},{"start":4345.436,"end":4373.661,"text":"大寮的香蕉全部倒一片我右手邊這一張圖是香瓜在阿聯種植的香瓜全部泡水全部爛掉這個是林園的養殖業者因為晴電所造成他們養殖的石斑魚等等各式的魚類養殖的魚類全部死亡的狀況所以部長我們要跟大家要跟您爭取就是說剛剛一直在講所謂的全品項"},{"start":4374.801,"end":4376.042,"text":"我想非常謝謝那個委員的一個提示"},{"start":4402.105,"end":4402.506,"text":"陳其邁市長已經去看看3次"},{"start":4417.765,"end":4418.386,"text":"全品向免災這件事情應該是"},{"start":4443.487,"end":4448.452,"text":"大家是可以達成共識的嗎?你同意我的看法嗎?那你們現在知道受災比較嚴重的其實就不用限刊了嗎?"},{"start":4463.226,"end":4466.068,"text":"部長如果是這樣的話我覺得也要趕快通令各縣市政府的各區公所的農業課因為農民現在已經急著在整理田地"},{"start":4487.886,"end":4512.698,"text":"所以他有可能已經開始在清除這一些枯枝阿什麼的不要到時候這個農業課的人去看又說你這個田很乾淨阿這個不像有受損的樣子阿其實人家都已經整理完了反而他的看待是不可準的我覺得這個東西可能要先講啦要先提醒各縣市政府農政單位這個可能我也會去幫忙說啦不過我們剛剛一直在講齁"},{"start":4514.6,"end":4522.649,"text":"這個不管是全品項不管是不是免限刊不管是怎麼樣的災損補助都需要錢嘛你現在農委會就"},{"start":4524.261,"end":4545.358,"text":"你今年還有錢對不對現在還有一點錢明年的錢在哪裡你的公務預算明年農委會的公務預算有1692億基金有747億錢賺有42億我剛剛稍微整理一下我們比較關心的大型計畫農田水利的這個永續發展計畫50.24億"},{"start":4547.68,"end":4548.281,"text":"這些全部都沒有欸"},{"start":4562.937,"end":4580.106,"text":"總預算現在都沒有欸那我們現在在講您剛剛講的這一本我就很用心啊所有農業要做的事情都在這裡啊可是這個都要錢欸你每一項計畫都要錢欸沒有半毛錢怎麼辦啊我現在在跟你講說全品向全民看在什麼設備要補助要怎麼樣照顧農民這每一樣每一句話都要錢欸部長"},{"start":4587.318,"end":4603.005,"text":"我想跟委員報告齁就是我們也盤點了齁當如果說總預算沒有辦法如期過順利通過的時候那針對新興的新政的計畫總共有414億那其中非常重要的是農水路的部分"},{"start":4603.285,"end":4604.346,"text":"所以平常口口聲聲說要照顧農民的這些藍白的委員們"},{"start":4627.199,"end":4641.965,"text":"您剛剛講的這些東西應該要讓他們很清楚的知道尤其來自農業縣市的委員們如果這些總預算不能過的話嘴巴一直講愛農民要照顧農民都是假的啦這個我還是期待我們剛剛講這麼多的補助"},{"start":4643.626,"end":4644.286,"text":"我們面對到野生動物的時候"},{"start":4667.783,"end":4680.436,"text":"這個應該就歸農業部管了吧歸農業跟林業保育署管了嘛要怎麼教導民眾我們發現在林保署的時間到了喔再給我一分鐘好不好我很快講完"},{"start":4683.53,"end":4705.158,"text":"在林保署的網站上完全沒有教導比如說遇到熊應該怎麼處理 沒有日本的網站環境省他有告訴你遇到熊你應該怎麼處理遇到蛇要怎麼處理 農業部的依報有幾個圖卡但是林業署的防蛇手冊要在很裡面的歷史訊息裡頭才找得到遇到虎頭蜂要怎麼處理"},{"start":4706.819,"end":4734.564,"text":"台灣跟日本的處理方式是完全不一樣喔日本是教大家隨身帶小瓶的殺蟲劑可是台灣說不行用殺蟲劑喔所以部長我現在跟你講就是說遇到在野外遇到這一種動物的攻擊野生動物的攻擊的時候應該怎麼求生是不是能夠請林業署趕快去研擬至少在我們的網站裡頭圖卡影音等等都應該讓民眾有一個非常正確的教育知識好不好"},{"start":4735.084,"end":4749.91,"text":"我們會馬上做,把這整個做一個宣導,變成一個集中式的,放在一個專區,讓大家來看。謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝球營委員。部長請回座。下一位是李玉玲委員。"},{"start":4761.595,"end":4762.276,"text":"請農業部陳部長李委員長"},{"start":4773.146,"end":4799.421,"text":"我們114年的預算是戰不列案所有的農業部我們要所有的預算花費都是可以去執行的是不是所以你們不要把說這個退回預算就會影響你們的作業這個是要先跟部長講清楚的我要跟委員說明喔 延續性的是可以繼續執行但是新增的新增的計畫還有新興的計畫"},{"start":4802.944,"end":4803.104,"text":"委員會理念："},{"start":4825.439,"end":4836.386,"text":"部長今天是你們的夜報那夜報的話本身就要跟你先講清楚一下就是由於因為我們氣候的變遷跟情流感的這個影響在2022年到2023年的時候"},{"start":4855.859,"end":4873.329,"text":"進口雞蛋這個標示這個期限是假的期限誤導我們的民眾還有就是把這個進口雞蛋做成蛋液還跟我們的標示地產地也標示成台灣這些爭議讓民眾對於這食安有很大的疑慮"},{"start":4875.73,"end":4892.019,"text":"當時發生的就是說超私這個資本額只有50萬的藝人公司就可以拿到1.75億的這個補助在這種情形之下超私他並沒有辦法當時是他成立的時間是9月份"},{"start":4892.799,"end":4917.655,"text":"可是你8月份就跟他有合作關係而且沒有合約內容就是用電話議價就給他們做了在這種情形之下發生這個疑慮之下部長你還幫他護航但是現在檢調單位開始已經調查了那如果說調查出他確實罪證確鑿有違法你會再為他們護航"},{"start":4919.11,"end":4946.38,"text":"不過我想跟委員說明齁您剛才所提到的資訊齁把111年跟112年齁混在一起講112年的時候超私是有合約的那個時候外界質疑說超私一人公司沒有能力去組織別說你是跟量財有合約那量財的時候是3到5月的時候後來你跟超私超私是8月到11月但是8月他超私還沒有成立"},{"start":4947.8,"end":4976.13,"text":"現在檢調單位都在查了我是請部長不要再護航如果確實的話請你們就要嚴辦你還負起應該有的責任我非常慎重的跟委員說明齁我們也是主動送請檢調的如果我們也儘速希望檢調儘速釐清如果有不法的我絕對不會寬戴你不要再為他背書了然後相對的就是說如果沒有什麼問題的話我也希望說還給我們同仁一個清白跟社會大眾一個一個"},{"start":4976.99,"end":4998.587,"text":"公開的一個真相 也要 如果說你沒有的話也會還你公道 要真相給社會交代好不好那最重要是 因為當時在這個量產的時候你給他的這個每顆雞蛋是6.9元 到了超市的時候你就給他7.39元 這個是不是有圖列清醒 為什麼一個3到5月 一個是8到11月"},{"start":4999.602,"end":5015.883,"text":"不過我想整個的一個一個程序其實剪掉再調查那針對3到5月的價格跟8到11月的價格會不一樣因為我們是用買斷的方式不是用合約的方式那價格的差異到底差合不合理因為也要考慮到當時的這些"},{"start":5017.185,"end":5041.332,"text":"你當時這個同年度一個3到5月你現在差不到幾個月你價格就變動了這沒有福利嗎111年的時候那禽流感的時候在111年9月以後那個是日本包括日本也大爆發所以那個時候的價格我跟你講3到5月你的合約的價格跟到8到11月的合約這差到是111年的事情嗎所以你要據時針對這所有的情形"},{"start":5042.432,"end":5048.636,"text":"本席是跟部長講說現在這個雞蛋你不是這個價格的問題你還有的就是處理這個過期這個銷毀的雞蛋5429萬顆雞蛋你花了5億2997萬元這些都是你花費出去的不管你冷凍鏈你的運輸你的這個銷毀的都花了這些錢你當時為什麼沒有事先掌握整個需求"},{"start":5069.108,"end":5078.759,"text":"民間的去跟國外購買的或是你們政府去想會去購買的這整體的這種需求量你們都沒有空管白白花掉這些國人民的公帑呢"},{"start":5079.97,"end":5105.253,"text":"我跟委員說明齁當初在整個蛋荒的時候是全球都缺雞蛋那個在那個時間點不知道那個疫情會延到多久所以在整個的採購的過程中有一部分是當作部長不能推脫之責不能知道疫情會多久但是你知道每天的供需量啊每天供需量你的緩衝期的是3個月需要多少量這可以統整出來的雞蛋有它的期限捏"},{"start":5106.414,"end":5135.774,"text":"所以你們都是非常在農業部這個整個當任這麼久的公職工作非常清楚整個產業的需求沒有掌握住這個我跟委員說明齁其實在雞蛋的過程中我們也自我檢討了裡面有非常多的我們可以改進的空間跟檢討的空間特別在行政上面在預測上面所以我們未來會針對這樣的一個部分如果在缺蛋的時候你們必須要檢討啦如果這件事情真的是有缺失的話你們就應該負起這個責任啦好不好"},{"start":5140.358,"end":5161.617,"text":"國土計畫法在明年就要執行了,在我們農業整個的發展跟需求上,部長你們這邊有沒有什麼配套的措施嗎?我想我要跟委員說明,就是國土計畫它其實它的原來的國土規劃就是對農業來講就是避免農地的破碎化"},{"start":5162.489,"end":5180.809,"text":"但是現在外界一直把國土計畫要不要送到那個內政部來審都要看我們的農業的配套資源什麼時候提出來那我在外已經跟外界講了農業資源的投入不會因為國土計畫如期或是延後而改變"},{"start":5182.211,"end":5184.614,"text":"這個為什麼會請教你就是因為很多我們的農地從農一到農五他的很多的規劃還有特定農地的就等等"},{"start":5197.313,"end":5225.488,"text":"這些都未來國家整體規劃上會有所變動為什麼因為我們的桃竹苗大溪谷計劃裡面也需要很多的產業用地在這用地上跟地方政府沒有整體的規劃跟我們行政部門橫向的溝通下這個用地上會有很多的衝突性為什麼因為你重劃你變更你設定國土計劃下去的話未來要再做變更是不可能的會很難去做這個調整的所以才說希望"},{"start":5226.508,"end":5229.309,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會"},{"start":5256.574,"end":5281.708,"text":"我跟委員說明,我還是說一句,就是我們的農業的堆積是幾乎是我們為了讓我們的農營首遍堆積農地的一個貢獻那有關於您剛才講的就是桃園大溪谷裡面有些地要去做變更那相對在國土計畫裡面它也有相關的規範所以我們後續會持續跟縣政府做溝通國土計畫不是絕對的值,就是農業要多少,農業要多少"},{"start":5282.168,"end":5282.348,"text":"李懿琳委員"},{"start":5313.389,"end":5316.27,"text":"主席我想請陳部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":5333.766,"end":5350.984,"text":"部長最近這幾個月以來我們就這個國土計畫法有關於這個農地化社的部分交換了意見那對於農一農二甚至345農345農政資源的投入到底有哪些不同的補助可以請部長具體的回答嗎"},{"start":5352.546,"end":5376.373,"text":"我想我們現在我還是一句話就是我們現在在規劃的堆疊式起伏他跟國土計畫不對然是絕對的關係不管國土計畫是不是延後如期我們都會實施這第一個我知道他是沒有直接關係但是他是相互影響的因為國土計畫現在迫在眉睫要執行但是你的堆疊式補助到現在"},{"start":5377.213,"end":5395.809,"text":"不是說9月底要提出辦法嗎?請問一下為什麼沒辦法提出?是跳票了嗎?不是,我想我們內部已經做了一些規劃,但是我們對於農業的堆疊式給付的規劃過程中,我們內部完了以後我們一定會對外去徵求各界的意見,包括"},{"start":5396.049,"end":5396.249,"text":"內容大概分為三個區塊"},{"start":5423.932,"end":5424.032,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5448.536,"end":5451.997,"text":"我可以請教說規劃的這麼好這麼完善的一個堆疊式補助到底什麼時候才可以把他公諸於民呢不是我想齁"},{"start":5472.625,"end":5494.658,"text":"我們初步的規劃出來了然後接下來我們會針對不同的利害關係這樣加起來一年大概要多少錢呢?我們初步規劃起來大概一年大概是兩百多億兩百多億所以這個挹注下去你覺得對我們農業會有很明顯的幫助嗎?我想我們不管是現在到未來的國土計畫只要你從事農業都沒有影響"},{"start":5495.618,"end":5497.54,"text":"我現在就是擔心的是其實國土計畫我前幾天遇到那個劉士芳部長我就跟他說其實我們不一定要他延遲實行只要農民的權益有受到保障我們完全不反對"},{"start":5510.911,"end":5523.907,"text":"但是他對於你的業務執掌呢他完全沒有辦法掌握你的進度所以你們兩個是不是能夠橫向溝通一下這樣子才能夠一邊對我們的農民有保障一邊又不影響國土計畫法上路"},{"start":5527.151,"end":5534.622,"text":"我講 劉部長絕對不可能說他沒辦法掌握我進度 我們經常在溝通但是你到現在還沒有辦法拿出你具體的具體的你要堆疊是要怎麼補助你的內容是什麼農一跟農二之間的農政資源分別"},{"start":5542.734,"end":5551.938,"text":"到底在哪裡?你知道有多少鄉親問我說我現在是不可以農藝啦我想要農餓因為農藝的限制多我問你如果現在變農餓你如果假設變了農餓結果他告訴你說毛毛毛毛不住只有農藝能領你讓這些鄉親你讓這些農民怎麼辦呢?"},{"start":5563.562,"end":5577.598,"text":"所以我還是跟委員說明就是我們的對立地給付跟我們的這些措施下去不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他不是一個對價他必然會是一個連結沒有 我不會說他延期我就不處理了"},{"start":5578.759,"end":5579.059,"text":"我想我們"},{"start":5608.14,"end":5610.602,"text":"這個是另外你要執行的跟立法院通過的決議是不相干的"},{"start":5624.053,"end":5628.176,"text":"立法院通過的決議因為有扯到費用的問題我現在就告訴你說本席覺得你要並行可以可是你不能把農民當作實驗品你知道嗎他們是活的他們需要生活他們的生計需要保障不是說你告訴我說一級二轉三加三可能一年會增加一塊"},{"start":5645.726,"end":5674.254,"text":"你的可能讓打上一個大問號那天我就直接問你啊如果假設你可以跟本席保證說一年沒辦法長一塊你就願意負責下台那我覺得我還可以試著相信你但是我還是覺得說你過去一直擔任農事所的所長我也很尊重你的專業但是農民不能變成你的實驗品這些植物可以農民不可以他們每天都要面臨"},{"start":5675.795,"end":5699.711,"text":"溫飽的問題你不能把他們當作說有可能一年可以增加一塊三年可以增加三塊本席現在要求的是說應該要並行你公糧收購價格提高你不管是要提高一塊兩塊三塊四塊五塊六塊這個是一部分另外你要一級二選三加三我們也不反對你嘛你可以並行一直找到最好的同時發展的機會嘛"},{"start":5702.582,"end":5718.354,"text":"我跟委員說明齁其實農業部在思考就是當我去確保農民收業的時候我更希望這個產業是進步的那如果純粹只是發錢結束當然非常簡單我現在就在告訴你說你不能只想績效你不能只想理想他們是人"},{"start":5719.255,"end":5724.016,"text":"我們台灣農業要進步一定是不斷的要往前你農業要進步你要先把農民照顧好嘛農民都沒有辦法溫飽了你要求進步你不能眼睛是看到績效只是看到理想要照顧農民不是只有發錢就解決的我只希望我告訴市長能夠來處理部長你不要辜負他們的期待我們對你是有很深的期待我知道說你的內心當中其實跟我一樣對農業是有計判的"},{"start":5747.242,"end":5775.739,"text":"但是我希望說我們目標既然一致就能夠找到可以並行的方式一邊照顧農民一邊兼顧發展農業的理想這才是正途這才是正伴就像我剛才問你的你既然對你這個計畫那麼有信心你敢不敢賭上你的前程說假設一年沒辦法漲一塊你就要下台我不做這樣的問題的回應是吧所以你也沒有辦法百分之百有信心說他是一年會漲一塊嗎"},{"start":5777.922,"end":5799.227,"text":"我任何的一個政策都有一個目標然後我們任何的一個政策不是把農民當作實驗品他絕對不是一個實驗品但是你的方式實際上是把他當作實驗品我只是要求說我們雙軌並行尊重民意照顧農民對你來說其實是沒有差別的你還是可以去做一擊二轉三加三呀"},{"start":5800.518,"end":5812.632,"text":"我還是希望委員能夠支持我們做這個我支持啊我不反對但我也希望你落實照顧農民把這個公糧收購每公斤5塊進入編導預算你不要去影響總預算嘛怎麼為了你一個人去卡總預算呢"},{"start":5816.125,"end":5833.233,"text":"這絕對不是為了我們的一個供糧的部分因為供糧如果真的提高了5塊的話那相對的整個產業的另外我想要請教部長的是說包括這個農業AI的部分我知道說這個費用現在目前一些補助都編在這個"},{"start":5835.894,"end":5845.319,"text":"科技師這個部分內容是不是可以給我們知道一下讓我可以對農民宣傳以利他們申請可以我們會後再提供給委員好謝謝謝謝張家俊委員謝謝來部長請回座下位執行請張啟凱委員"},{"start":5879.681,"end":5894.006,"text":"來請阿陳部長請農業部陳部長委員好 柏地發行原蓄鋼張家俊張委員很重要對農民的供糧這個收購"},{"start":5895.984,"end":5913.994,"text":"我先提醒一個非常重要的原則第一個面對農民是要照顧的是要幫忙的不要站在農民的對立面而且你不要高高在上工人收購裡面還牽扯到一個很重要的問題這是立法院表決通過的請你要尊重法治好不好"},{"start":5915.165,"end":5934.601,"text":"我再提醒一次不要站在農民的對立面而且不要高高在上而且請你尊重法治你剛講的意思好像是只有你一個人對剛剛提了阿這是立法院通過的阿你本來就應該要編阿好不好你再回想一下這個事情我跟你講這幾天還會再協調嘛對不對卓議員長跟這個"},{"start":5938.892,"end":5955.781,"text":"行政院跟立法院會協調我希望不要卡在你一個人身上昨天財政部長跟主計長來 他們也說尊重農業部的這個決定我希望你好好再想一下 農民現在是生計的問題 13年沒有條了你就說啊 你賺這裡就不夠 你要拋光現在是他們溫飽的問題 好不好 你要去實驗"},{"start":5962.085,"end":5971.39,"text":"這個絕對不是實驗喔 這個絕對不是實驗你五塊錢加了 美工機五塊錢加了你先去執行看你的理想能不能達得到可是農民很清楚講 你的工薪我才聽不到啦"},{"start":5972.961,"end":5973.161,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5994.278,"end":6020.942,"text":"就做阿 並行去做阿好不好 這個事情我講到這邊反正等著回去解決問題沒有沒有 來 我有沒有比較重要的事情那個北檢北檢已經約談了去搜索的農業部嘛 對不對中央續產會這個超級不可思議的超思案北檢說不排除要約談陳其中跟林松賢我定你也是被告之一嘛 對不對"},{"start":6022.561,"end":6037.031,"text":"你被約談了沒有我是看到媒體說我是被告我是看到媒體我沒有接到任何的訊息我也沒有被約談古尼古尼是很多人去安寧申告當然最主要他們認為要找決策者嘛所以最主要控告對象"},{"start":6038.399,"end":6055.079,"text":"是陳其中跟林松賢嘛那你也被列在裡面你說到目前為止沒有約談過你們沒有沒有約談那重點就是啊人民要的很簡單嘛就兩個嘛一個真相嘛一個就是責任嘛所以才會有所謂的別檢要找出這個決策者那決策者是誰"},{"start":6055.78,"end":6071.878,"text":"我想檢調單位在相關的雞蛋的部分已經在做專案調查而且是我們主動移情檢調單位來調查的那我們也相信檢調單位的公平跟他的司法的一個公平性所以我們也希望檢調能夠儘速的能夠釐清相關的案情"},{"start":6073.554,"end":6076.215,"text":"我沒有說大家一起做決策我是說當時在雞蛋價格民間的價格國內的價格在迅速攀升的過程中"},{"start":6091.721,"end":6118.614,"text":"全世界的侵入感大爆發的過程中必須要做一些緊急的進口那緊急的進口裡面相關的這些討論大家都有一些討論跟參與那最後的決策是我現在提醒的是什麼現在人民不滿了人民要的真相是什麼為什麼是一個50萬資本額的超市那誰做決策讓他承包這麼大的生意啊"},{"start":6119.537,"end":6142.411,"text":"你不覺得差不可思議嗎?我相信不是你做決策嘛!所以人民才在問啊!北檢才要查啊!這個沒有陳其中、林聰賢,誰能夠做這個決策?阿你們這政府機關?你有公文啊?誰做這個覺醒了?誰把這個生意交給了超市?這是什麼?白紙黑字啊!那為什麼合約都沒簽?當立議領理委員不是在問嗎?"},{"start":6144.048,"end":6157.002,"text":"超支誕生的時間是前年的9月這個備委的凱西凱西你們就開始要讓他進蛋了誰敢做這個決策我相信不是你嘛那比你大的是誰所以現在出現說要約談嘛"},{"start":6159.866,"end":6175.817,"text":"所以檢調單位正在調查,所以我想委員是不是可以讓這個議題由檢調單位來查因為相關的委員要資料的時候,讓我們的畜牧師疲於奔命在整理這些資料,那畜牧師有非常多的工作要去做"},{"start":6176.988,"end":6193.302,"text":"好啦對當然勿妄勿縱啦我現在只要提醒你人民就是要真相對不對然後別檢現在趕快約談相關的人像你自己不要檢進去你所謂的一起沒有包括你現在人民要的是說那麼離譜的狀況是誰做的決策幫我把錢搬出去啊公文上面不用蓋章嗎"},{"start":6195.291,"end":6220.996,"text":"這個公文都要調嘛 調公文嘛 約該約的人嘛 這個會有真相的啦好不好 我們看北檢的速度在加快 我們現在只要問 監察院也做了糾正案了 北檢開始約談了 農業部也要有一些動作 自己要有一些檢討我們真的糾正案 我們已經有內部的一個檢討的新的作為出來我另外問你一個重要的事情你答應我的事情 六月二月六十八我總質詢的時候"},{"start":6224.11,"end":6245.59,"text":"左院長跟你對本席做了承諾也是對立法院的承諾那時候五月份的時候你們把以前即將到期的液氮倒出來那時候要倒多少兩千兩百多萬顆我在立法院的院會裡面清清楚楚問你跟院長左院長跟你是跟我保證的喔"},{"start":6248.001,"end":6257.358,"text":"馬上終止對不對後續還有停下來的還有的停下來不要倒彈結果你為什麼你們在議員會做的這個決定你為什麼在8月27號你繼續倒彈勒"},{"start":6261.776,"end":6284.377,"text":"我想可能委員誤會當時在質詢的時候那時候委員特別提到當時的單價國內的單價已經這麼低了不希望說續產會在國內的單價這麼低的過程中持續的把過去的庫存蛋釋出那我們也同意說在這個階段我們暫停把這些庫存蛋釋出部長我有一段話跟你聽"},{"start":6288.314,"end":6301.97,"text":"陳部長回答說,如果國內的彈供應市場的需求是夠的話,我們就不會釋出。主委長講得更清楚啊,民生為重,不要破壞了產需的這個平衡,要照顧到我們的彈籠,所以他當場"},{"start":6303.131,"end":6309.535,"text":"一方面你是打臉的周榮泰我跟你講一方面你為什麼要做這個事情你當初我問的時候那時候產地價的這個美台金是27.5對不對你知道你到這個8月份的時候價格往下掉欸26.5欸"},{"start":6327.674,"end":6353.584,"text":"你這不是顧一個破壞的產銷這個平衡你是完全不顧彈籠這個生死嗎我想喔 基本上我們這些加工彈的部分會在彈價回升的時候適度的去釋出現在有回升嗎沒有 現在就掉了 問題發生 部長 部長第一個有白色黑字 第二個清清楚楚現在還是在掉的這個狀況之下你倒彈已經不對了 好 這是一個問題"},{"start":6355.421,"end":6362.937,"text":"你不只打你的行政院長我跟你講這個事情你要給我一個清楚講甚至已經藐視國會了你答應的事情為什麼沒有這樣做第二個在牽扯到食安的問題"},{"start":6364.517,"end":6388.814,"text":"你說不能,為什麼我要講第三點?我說要你回去清查一下你的蛋有沒有過期,對不對?你清查了嗎?清啊清查了?清啊那現在有多少蛋是過期的?現在庫存裡面總共有一千一百四十八萬顆裡面還有一千一百四十多萬顆?對,然後其中齁,就是最慢的蛋粉,因為我上次也說了加工蛋有不同的蛋粉的話可以到那個2025年的9月14才到期"},{"start":6392.039,"end":6392.459,"text":"法院執行長"},{"start":6409.35,"end":6409.651,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6425.103,"end":6442.023,"text":"你認為他沒有問題嗎?對不對?我想我們不必要用這樣的方式去證明他的執行委員我想整個雞蛋變成加工蛋的時候一定的規範這個規範就是食藥署都跟你講就是一年阿你要推翻食藥署的講法要推翻你之前中央市長會講法他是根據不同的製程"},{"start":6444.906,"end":6445.286,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6463.634,"end":6491.267,"text":"發言時間已經到了已經超過三分鐘了已經超過三分鐘了我們在監督政府而且牽扯到人民的食安為什麼如果你每次都會沒有馬上好那個主席就是一個答案嘛你我說四次會一個禮拜內辦你不辦你的方法是什麼嘛你的方法是什麼我們可以把我們現在庫存的這些標示跟他的規格品由食藥組來確認是不是符合他的規範好那你公佈給大家看好不好一個禮拜內公佈可以嗎部長"},{"start":6493.137,"end":6498.663,"text":"我們要聯絡食藥署來確認嘛!現在台北市的位置都在查了嘛!你們盡快公佈!一個禮拜內公佈!"},{"start":6514.346,"end":6515.406,"text":"主席好我想請陳部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":6548.125,"end":6561.775,"text":"部長好我想說委員在質詢的時候其實很多需要都需要有一個很具體的部分我發問一下剛剛張琦海委員他問的那問題這個問題多久你可以給一個答案不只給張琦海委員也要給本席給我們經濟委員會的所有的委員"},{"start":6562.625,"end":6589.888,"text":"我想整個雞蛋在加工的過程中一定是符合相關的規範嘛那剛才委員質詢說他的資訊是只有一年嘛所有東西就只有一年那我的回應是根據不同的加工的產品會有不同的期限嘛那最好的方式就是由食藥署來確認我們的所以他剛剛有要求時間他需要一個禮拜給答案然後你說不能你沒有直接回應他你可以具體回應一下大概多久時間可以給出這個答案我想"},{"start":6590.819,"end":6603.485,"text":"我們會約食藥署約食藥署的時間食藥署看過以後我3天之內給答案食藥署看過之後3天給答案因為食藥署約的時候他不一定如期嘛那食藥署這邊確定時間之後也跟"},{"start":6606.627,"end":6629.305,"text":"我們直接說明一下好不好不要用食藥署這邊來那個推託後面的時間我們會正式請他們那個請區長會請那個食藥署來協助來確認部長因為國有林地出租是我們農業部林業署的業務嘛那租金的計算的法律依據是什麼這個是不是可以請我們林保署的署長"},{"start":6632.302,"end":6652.811,"text":"報告委員 那我們租金的計算是依照一般的那個正常的土地交易價格8%這是上限8%上限其實是我們礦業法上面的規定的部分那因為針對整個國有非公用不動產租賃那個作業程序其實財政部有一個很清楚的一個訂定應該沒有問題所以你剛剛提到8%的部分其實是礦業法第54條的一個規定"},{"start":6657.393,"end":6675.488,"text":"本席要問的部分是從民國108年開始這是我們林務署這邊針對國有林地出租工礦業用地使用的部分加計所謂的一個生態系服務價值請問這個生態系服務價值它的收費的法律依據是什麼"},{"start":6676.827,"end":6692.368,"text":"跟委員報告齁,我們租給礦業用者,大家都知道是採礦,採礦他不只是,他不像一般租地,他會去破壞原本的現況,所以我們來﹖理解,所以生態系服務價值﹖是﹖法律依據是什麼?"},{"start":6693.678,"end":6707.313,"text":"這個就是依照各土地管理機關,針對他的土地出租,他可以有一個給予其業務執掌,對這個...這個...處長你在胡說齁,其實我在想說,剛剛我一開始在問說,就是..."},{"start":6708.738,"end":6730.338,"text":"國有林地出租很清楚你講到這個部分按照財政部國有非公用不動產租賃作業程序這裏面當中那個我們礦業法裏面的一個規定8%可是裏面並沒有生態系服務價值這樣子的一個字眼的一個收費這個部分土地管理機關本來就有這樣的權責可以針對他土地的租用可以做這樣的認定這個在"},{"start":6731.559,"end":6732.419,"text":"因為按照憲法第19條租稅法定原則"},{"start":6759.764,"end":6779.785,"text":"你沒有法律依據的租稅或規費是不是不能收的你剛剛提到那個部分的時候你之後你再給本席一個資料因為我們目前看起來的時候呢針對所謂的生態系服務價值因為它的費用其實非常的高那它現在你的意思說它並不租金裡面去使用對不對然後你說這租金還不到8%是這個意思嗎"},{"start":6782.627,"end":6806.798,"text":"對 它並沒有超過那個所謂8%的這個OK 那我們到時候我們來計算一下因為按照本席所掌握的一個資料的時候呢如果說這個部分併入租金的部分它其實是會超過8%那我們到時候我們來衡量一下因為所有的一個相關的土地它有一個相關的標準那針對這部分之後準備充分的資料我們來本辦公室做一個很詳細的討論好 謝謝署長"},{"start":6809.779,"end":6834.79,"text":"那我想接下來我想問一個有關於就是明年紐西蘭那個鮮乳藥進口的問題針對這個部分我們農業部應該也有一些因應的措施我有看到那個部長報告裡面有說建構那個弱農產業戀良好的環境對不對那針對這個部分的時候我想請教一下對於鮮乳定義的部分我們農業部這邊跟"},{"start":6837.911,"end":6861.161,"text":"衛福部那邊是不是已經溝通好了鮮乳的標示定義要怎麼去做處理衛福部還要開會我們的立場一直很一致就是針對現在目前國外進口的鮮乳有90天的這個期限的部分我們是比較傾向於是用長效乳的部分去處理而且我們也正式行文給衛福部了"},{"start":6861.741,"end":6875.119,"text":"那衛部會開相關的專家的會議因為不只是國內的他也可能考慮到國外進口的貿易但是他最後還沒有做決定因為他們有不同的意見部長所以我們希望你這邊能夠很堅持"},{"start":6877.662,"end":6898.554,"text":"因為如果農業對於鮮乳這兩個字眼就像我一般消費者在認定的我們覺得鮮乳就是很新鮮的你如果說變成是一個保守乳長效乳這個狀態來講對我們來說它就不是鮮乳所以我們像農業部這邊能夠真正的去堅持那我要特別提到是因為每次比方說我們農業有碰到所有的問題的時候各部會其實都會來幫忙"},{"start":6903.275,"end":6925.141,"text":"針對牛乳進口的部分的時候教育部現在在做斑斑喝鮮奶這件事情我想部長一定也知道對不對可是我們知道斑斑喝鮮奶這個部分某個部分是要解決臺灣弱農業面臨這個挑戰所產生的一個問題可是目前我們統計出來的狀態大家都還是要喝薄酒乳"},{"start":6926.121,"end":6934.689,"text":"百分之七十五以上都是要訂購喝飽酒乳我們新竹市大概有將近快要九成都是喝飽酒乳為什麼?因為大家覺得鮮乳這邊"},{"start":6936.226,"end":6955.975,"text":"冷戀進到校園門口可以到校園裡面內部的時候大家會擔心所以說針對這個部分我們農業部會不會有更精實或者更積極的一個做法能夠真正來配合教育部他們在講斑斑喝鮮乳的時候然後我們是真的能夠解決弱農業的問題的"},{"start":6958.517,"end":6975.951,"text":"我跟委員說明,第一個就是鮮乳跟包酒乳的營養價值都是一樣的,只是它的製程不一樣。那第二個就是說,學校端我們統計出來的現在大概7成5左右是包酒乳,大概2成2是鮮乳,那其他的可能是豆漿或其他的。"},{"start":6977.331,"end":6977.471,"text":"主席"},{"start":7006.096,"end":7032.413,"text":"所以南部跟東部喝鮮奶的比例稍高中部跟北部喝鮮奶的比例低嘛所以針對這個部分的時候我們希望農業部這邊也更積極一點去做那教團提出鮮乳卷因為真的喝鮮奶對我們的弱農產業才會真正有具體的一個幫助如果是薄酒乳的時候進口也可以用薄酒乳所以我在希望說針對鮮奶這個部分那我們農業部這邊能夠有更積極的一個做法"},{"start":7034.835,"end":7041.209,"text":"我跟委員說明我真的感謝包括洛榮包括盧桑包括學校老師共同來協助來推動這個"},{"start":7043.323,"end":7068.064,"text":"先乳進學校全世界有一個世界學校牛奶日這個是大家一起希望說為學童加蓋讓他的身體能夠健康成長的目標我們會一起努力理解那針對先乳的這個部分我們希望農業部這邊能夠跟積極的來協助解決謝謝以上好謝謝曾政賢委員謝謝部長請回座我們在"},{"start":7069.737,"end":7089.325,"text":"陳廷輝委員資訊之外我們休息休息休息10分鐘下一位資訊請陳廷輝委員現在主席我們請部長請農業部陳部長委員好"},{"start":7098.019,"end":7108.448,"text":"部長好,部長我想在這一次凱敏颱風之後我們發現了一個問題因為這一次凱敏颱風其實是全面性的"},{"start":7109.355,"end":7136.86,"text":"所以我們在整個農災的部分很快就核准魚災的部分也是甚至是畜牧的部分都是在當下然後連續三天就馬上公布可是現在發現一個問題當像凱米這樣的一個全面自災有一個部分我們是沒有辦法去做任何的一個協助的就是我們產業設備"},{"start":7139.601,"end":7152.794,"text":"產業設備這才是嚴重像凱米這個是瞬間尤其又遇到了像我們巴掌西的一個這個堤防然後對然後破洞潰堤的狀態那根本擋不了"},{"start":7155.476,"end":7170.93,"text":"可是在產業的部分他設備上是有問題的是沒有辦法去做任何協助他們去做賠償也好然後做復工那這部分到底我們從這一次凱米颱風我們有什麼樣的檢討嗎"},{"start":7179.176,"end":7196.733,"text":"我跟委員說明我現在也要求我們的同仁開始再重新去檢視天然栽培救助的辦法那第一個部分就是救助的品項他的金額的部分我們會重新去做這是我要跟部長也是要跟你談的第二個部分第二個部分就是說"},{"start":7197.714,"end":7222.156,"text":"沒有錯我們現在看到的因為現在天然災害救助辦法裡面的規範都是直接的損失對於間接的損失是沒有納入的那沒有納入的話我們可以用輔導的周圍去做那也可以直接看看有沒有機會直接放在天然災害救助裡面其實你們現在都用所謂低利率來協助可是我告訴你那個整個就是"},{"start":7223.257,"end":7230.494,"text":"一片狼藉你要怎麼去協助他他也不知道要如何開始你低利率給他也沒有用"},{"start":7231.713,"end":7256.529,"text":"所以其實我們要講的是當我們要協助他來做任何災後回復的動作其實有時候在產業這個設備的部分才是一個重要所以我覺得這個部分要重新檢討另外一個就是我在這當中也跟部長通過電話就像部長剛才說的你要檢討我們的品項多久沒有檢討了"},{"start":7262.169,"end":7279.918,"text":"部長,多久沒檢討了?施牧魚沒有,滾動在檢討農糧的部分,魚的部分,很抱歉,魚的部分我覺得有一段時間了啦多久了,你先講多久你就知道說難怪那個誤差那麼大上次什麼時候?多久?應該有兩三年了兩三年了,不只吧?"},{"start":7290.192,"end":7311.73,"text":"還有我們的畜牧呢?一隻雞一隻鴨我們今年8月6號的時候有重新提出來開始去做檢討那上一次檢討齁 我承認齁 畜牧跟養殖漁業的部分是很久了啦但是農糧的部分齁 那時候我們都有定期的滾動檢討我們希望這個滾動檢討非常重要"},{"start":7316.397,"end":7345.438,"text":"我們農與畜牧的品項都要滾動檢討隨時滾動檢討我們的物價波動那麼快在這一次我們看到那個資料當我們公布之後全面摘損然後公布哇我們看到那個品項的單價怎麼差那麼多所以全部的畜牧業養殖業全部跳腳"},{"start":7347.11,"end":7369.24,"text":"那全部踢到腳之後跟部長回覆的時候沒辦法因為公告了只能下次再拿出來做總體檢好部長8月6號你們已經提出來了那請問多久然後裡面一定要設一個叫滾動式檢討的標準"},{"start":7372.936,"end":7397.39,"text":"因為你沒有滾動式檢討有可能我們看到的農漁然後畜牧你沒有定期滾動式檢討有可能又兩三年後那個物價指數一飛又不知道要飛到哪裡去了部長可不可以我基本上的看法是這樣子過往我們的農漁畜都是各自處理那被關心到的就處理比較快一點"},{"start":7398.749,"end":7402.851,"text":"每一年的訊息之前也許在年初的時候就先做一個確認那如果說它的物價的波動已經達到可以去啟動的時候我們就來調整"},{"start":7423.478,"end":7436.963,"text":"部長,我覺得你講的這些原則,你們要在你們的辦法裡面我們會明定,你沒有明定有可能部長你今天這麼說,可是下面的人不一定會這麼認為"},{"start":7438.604,"end":7457.973,"text":"那每一次我們都要去麻煩部長我們也會不好意思啊我們認為這個部分就是SOP該怎麼走就怎麼做而不是每一次我們都要麻煩到部長然後部長交代然後他們才拿出來檢討而是我們在訓期前就像部長所說的訓期前我們就拿出來檢討"},{"start":7459.093,"end":7487.432,"text":"然後讓我們所有的相關單位有一個依詢甚至是地方的農政單位也知道該怎麼做否則常常都是中央地方完全是不同調光一個勘栽就不同調這讓我們非常的困擾我們都不知道說到底是我們的制度還是地方的制度現在很簡單人家都殺到中央比較快所以每次都先罵中央我覺得這非常不公平"},{"start":7488.513,"end":7509.691,"text":"非常不公平啊,如果地方都不用負擔責任,然後把責任都推給中央,那要地方政府幹什麼?是不是?所以我們就把責任全責劃分清楚。這個也是我要跟你提醒的。什麼人要做什麼事情?當遇到災損,第一步驟誰要做?先把SOP都訂好。"},{"start":7510.7,"end":7537.564,"text":"沒做的拿出來打屁股不是把責任推給別人就可以這個部長我也請你拜託把地方中央該負責所謂勘災當遇到災損的時候農漁畜牧災損的時候該怎麼做的SOP訂出來地方政府的權責訂好這個部分再麻煩另外一個就是我們後避"},{"start":7539.312,"end":7539.572,"text":"總經費多少?"},{"start":7566.651,"end":7591.667,"text":"681本來有下修到681那現在國會還在審但是114年有撥了1.14億部長不要再講國發會了在這個禮拜一我剛問過國發會國發會說現在已經回歸到行政院行政院已經給農業部了就是要針對你們的人力問題編制問題下去做處理下去做調整對不對所以你們現在就是一個推一個嘛"},{"start":7592.5,"end":7593.04,"text":"我跟委員報妙"},{"start":7621.034,"end":7637.227,"text":"114年1.7億今年度我們去挪了大概3200到3500萬去做現在目前的基本的那個馬路公共工程去維修我知道那是這一次然後要應付到明年所謂兩個國際的一個展展"},{"start":7640.349,"end":7652.439,"text":"這個我清楚可是我講的這是大計劃大計劃的部分現在你們還在行政院要求你們要針對機關編制調整這個部分你們什麼時候要抱怨"},{"start":7653.444,"end":7660.29,"text":"我們今年年底就會報 今年年底才要報 你公建計劃怎麼會來得及我跟委員講 那個整個機關人事調整經費調整不是那麼簡單那你這樣子公建計劃怎麼會來得及公建計劃它會滾動的你們到底114年度要編多少 公建計劃"},{"start":7674.441,"end":7699.637,"text":"那是南蛙花卉產業創新園區多少這是15以後的事情因為它是一個比較長程的計畫它是跟南蛙園區的第2個園區結合的部長你怎麼想都上班了啦你怎麼想都上班了啦我告訴你我很緊張啦好 謝謝陳建民委員來部長請回座"},{"start":7701.491,"end":7704.473,"text":"現在主席宣布休息10分鐘"},{"start":7726.929,"end":7727.25,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7742.288,"end":7761.134,"text":"你們早上回約我們的是說114年的布要2.27億這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?這是你們早上回約的嗎?"},{"start":7772.775,"end":7773.236,"text":"本集完﹗"},{"start":8312.076,"end":8324.681,"text":"請官員回座請官員迅速回座請大家遵守會議程序請官員迅速回座我們繼續開會"},{"start":8340.956,"end":8341.176,"text":"農業部陳部長"},{"start":8362.352,"end":8381.421,"text":"部長好 我首先本席要跟你討論超思案偵辦中我給你一個定調 農業部還欠人民一個解釋所以本席要請教 超思案在監委的糾正當中 大家"},{"start":8382.501,"end":8382.721,"text":"主席"},{"start":8408.271,"end":8409.232,"text":"邀請農業部長列席報告"},{"start":8429.455,"end":8446.117,"text":"我跟委員說明就是這個案子超市案子監察院已經做了調查然後也針對農業部做了5項的一個糾正還有一些改善的一些作為那我們絕對尊重監察院或是審計部的這些調查結果我們也針對這個糾正的作為裡面"},{"start":8448.199,"end":8463.504,"text":"是牽涉到很多行政上的一個疏失那特別是在採購的過程中的一個行政疏失的部分那我們也要求了區長會就是重新去建立一個標準的一個SOP好 你還好 有知有覺所以我們繼續來討論你沒有認為監察院審計單位都認為你自己也認為很多的缺失是"},{"start":8473.407,"end":8493.096,"text":"好 除了請他們去改善之外 移請司法單位之外本期要具體跟你討論你的行政調查那麼到目前為止 在之前還沒有報出來的時候 你們還一直說他是掛布警 是一個有時機的"},{"start":8494.577,"end":8510.529,"text":"甚至在你的Q&A的專區裡頭你都還一直說他是很好的那到今天本席上了你的網站看還是如此你認為你這個網站要不要調整啊"},{"start":8511.727,"end":8524.224,"text":"請做說明已經那麼多缺失你仍舊在為他解釋你到底這是為什麼我跟委員說明我們在檢調單位啟動調查的時候我們會尊重檢調單位的調查結果這第一點第二點就是說"},{"start":8530.331,"end":8547.102,"text":"專案進口是在112年那有一些是在111年發生的所以在112年的時候我們說超市有時機指的是他在111年有時機的部分你這麼說我真的嘩然我繼續跟你討論111年8月份雙方簽署了履約情形確認書對不對"},{"start":8558.84,"end":8574.029,"text":"超市在什麼時候成立111年的9月5號成立他在未成立以前就可以去簽這個確認書這怎麼回事啊你到目前為止你的網站還在說"},{"start":8577.709,"end":8585.213,"text":"還為他在說話這怎麼回事啊這怎麼回事太離譜了我插斷你的話你今天出了這麼大的包審計單位監察院司法都在調查你到目前為止你的網站Q&A專區還是如此太離譜了"},{"start":8606.836,"end":8610.08,"text":"還沒有成立之前就可以簽確認書離譜至極接下來本期他說你要去檢討有問題趕快撤好不好"},{"start":8617.54,"end":8619.382,"text":"你趕快去看!那位部長趕快撤!好不好!一個政府還在為有問題的還在掛報警"},{"start":8637.541,"end":8641.503,"text":"這個讓人家覺得很奇怪而且已經司法調查這麼長審計我們的這個這個監委都已經監察院都已經告訴你你也認為是有問題你到現在還讓他很清楚的掛在那裡農業部替他做保證難怪無法無天接下來你趕快去查有問題趕快撤你的原則是不是如此接下來我要再跟你討論"},{"start":8666.789,"end":8692.321,"text":"總諮詢的時候卓院長說了有違法失職絕對嚴辦那你們很早也啟動行政調查請問請問在專案進口的時候我們在經濟委員會在總諮詢要不到資料進口好了之後完了之後我們要資料你告訴我們什麼檢方調查不便提供不便提供所以部長本期要請問喔是誰"},{"start":8695.402,"end":8720.83,"text":"是誰跟吳裕飛簽成議價是誰請教部長是誰這個您所指的應該是111年因為112年是有合約的那合約的簽署是根據合約的規範去執行那110年是用買斷的方式誰簽的去處理對誰簽的整個的一個雞蛋的採購的過程是由續展會來處理的"},{"start":8725.077,"end":8754.343,"text":"請問"},{"start":8756.164,"end":8772.696,"text":"簽證議價確認之後要不要送回農業當時的農委會在執行面的話應該是不用只是在年度計畫在查的時候會去做查核他查核有沒有查到他裡面查核的部分是看他的單因為會計帳會計查帳有會計查帳的一個遊戲規定好會計查帳低價高報低價高報光光這樣子的低價高報"},{"start":8785.15,"end":8787.744,"text":"元素的議題 浪費人民多少選案錢"},{"start":8788.769,"end":8818.223,"text":"低價高報是一個非常嚴肅的問題但是是不是真的低價高報檢調單位正在調查特別是講到3到5月份跟後面9到12月份之間的價差有差異的部分一定也要考慮到當時市場的雞蛋的價格而定而不是說同一個價格所以這個部分我想檢調單位後續會做釐清特別是超市跟另外一家量產公司之間的一個貿易關係這個是我們行政調查是沒辦法介入的"},{"start":8819.794,"end":8832.696,"text":"請教我們在行政調查的時候你明明白白說有這麼多的缺失那請教你們的究責最高層級到底是誰"},{"start":8834.107,"end":8847.592,"text":"你們做了這麼長的行政調查你的究責單位你究責到誰請說明我想分兩個部分在112年的調查的過程裡面我們的當時的畜牧師的師長已經調離現職了"},{"start":8850.233,"end":8851.314,"text":"人民那麼多的納稅錢 部長你去思考"},{"start":8872.825,"end":8880.816,"text":"你去思考 行政調查有我們行政調查權如果這麼大的包只有這個處長調離現職你就稱如本席所說的 農業部"},{"start":8888.806,"end":8916.022,"text":"要還民眾一個解釋跟一個道歉那這個你冷靜去思考出了那麼多的包花了那麼多的錢你要如何跟人民去交代這個是你的職責那我給你一個議題再給我一分鐘喔主席也就是灌水牛的問題本席非常的重視動保法"},{"start":8917.369,"end":8926.814,"text":"那灌水牛的問題我們竟然防檢告訴媒體說只要把內臟拿出來就可以灌水 有這回事嗎"},{"start":8928.131,"end":8928.731,"text":"2012年10年前就告訴人民不可以如此作為"},{"start":8950.609,"end":8971.04,"text":"竟然我們政府部門說只要你內臟拿出來你就可以灌水食安問題怎麼辦你怎麼可以詐欺消費者這是嚴肅的議題你的處罰怎麼處罰不罰者竟然他的所得千億以上千萬以上你們只有動保法罰多少你告訴我這最嚴厲的處罰你只有罰三萬塊最低"},{"start":8977.421,"end":8989.248,"text":"法案3萬塊最低這人民可以接受嗎政府部門公然的詐欺我們的消費者內臟拿出來就可以灌水我們的食安怎麼辦哇那個報紙這麼大一篇你們從來也沒有解釋"},{"start":8999.754,"end":8999.774,"text":"致謝"},{"start":9029.457,"end":9033.799,"text":"稍微仔細首先要請農業部我們的陳部長"},{"start":9064.313,"end":9086.182,"text":"首先,我發起一個問題非常嚴重,農業部每次都要解決都沒有解決。關於現在落農的牛主的一個問題,以前是斑斑出石斑,現在是斑斑喝鮮奶。"},{"start":9087.287,"end":9098.068,"text":"那為什麼把這個題目拿出來因為去年度我剛好來磁力萬里若龍我們產生的那個乳酪過剩的問題"},{"start":9099.608,"end":9121.382,"text":"那時候我記得跟齊琳的那個一個處長我就跟他講你要特別注意 臺日經貿協定那紐西蘭的那個冷漏液品質是非常好 所有統一所有超商所有都是用這樣來做掀奶出來的"},{"start":9122.643,"end":9144.313,"text":"那時候苦求哀求最後你們說很困難所以我當地的那個養若牛的話只有把我們的若牛整個賣掉現在也不經營了我才那年碰到他那現在你搬搬來吃這個鮮奶的時候但是你的理不準非常的複雜"},{"start":9147.082,"end":9162.92,"text":"現在變成只要我們農產品一自銷你有兩個最大的客戶一個是就是國中小學生一個是軍隊我感覺這不是辦法每次你東西一自銷的話你只能這樣解決"},{"start":9164.451,"end":9183.545,"text":"那個誰我記得處理你很認真但是跟我講說困難很多包括保護酒的誰都不接其實這個問題很嚴重你們要面對事情又要保護肉人其實一點都沒有做到啊部長這個我處理過了所以我算很能瞭解這樣的事情"},{"start":9184.751,"end":9197.959,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是我們把牛奶推到學校去絕對不是台灣是第一個國家因為有世界學校牛奶日其實全世界的小孩包括台灣的小孩我們絕對不是為了去化我們絕對不是為了去化"},{"start":9206.044,"end":9232.677,"text":"因為現在牛奶一年48萬噸進到學校只有2萬噸它量是非常少的我們只希望學童有加開當初要解決困難我還跟你們的次長說不然幫我解決到苗栗的學校去你們說非常困難困難說沒有錢沒有這樣的經費那現在這個那個班班喝牛奶的經費從哪裡來告訴我"},{"start":9236.189,"end":9256.043,"text":"斑斑喝鮮奶我們應該有總共今年度是有7.1億有農損基金農損基金是從農水農損基金還是你農業受進口損害基金阿不是從養牛升級產業計畫來的嗎我跟委員報告齁我們養牛升級產業計畫是一個大計畫在農業基金你是把養牛生產計畫來的"},{"start":9266.731,"end":9278.919,"text":"結果喝牛奶喝到養牛生產計畫就是每一個學校的學生每班班在喝鮮奶,這要告訴我清楚,我得到資料是養牛生及產業計畫裡面輸出的"},{"start":9282.694,"end":9297.44,"text":"我想第一個就是明年度的部份是教育部的一般性的補助我們不到你這邊你就要跳到那個地方去我可以講大概是從養牛生產養牛升級產業計畫"},{"start":9299.281,"end":9301.062,"text":"臺灣為了加日CPTPP"},{"start":9325.642,"end":9354.264,"text":"說我們是已經已開挖已開挖的國家東南亞已開挖的國家是由日本跟新加坡我們現在要在CPP我們的農業都要開挖你早晚都要面臨這樣問題啊不要煙耳罩臉啊我不知道CPP當時是怎樣經濟部說我們是已開挖國家我們跟日本跟新加坡都要一樣"},{"start":9356.179,"end":9369.566,"text":"農產品都要開放,我告訴你,你要想到未來發生的事情,這樣做法不是一勞永逸,而且也不是真正解決的辦法。只要告示自小就叫學生來這裡,叫軍隊來這裡,好不好?"},{"start":9373.936,"end":9388.592,"text":"您應該誤會其實為了加入CPT我們本身一個非常重要的概念就是要把國產的農產品做區格化的市場這個部分是非常重要的還有在地農業的支持區格化這個是國際貿易一定規則我們都曉得"},{"start":9393.559,"end":9395.3,"text":"臺灣現在高級消亡哪一個國家最多?"},{"start":9415.031,"end":9441.053,"text":"我們現在水果外銷哪一個地方最多我們水果現在外銷以日本先三千水果外銷以日本為最大宗大概每一年占全台灣仙果書大概我如果沒有記錯的話應該是到47.5%將近有一半是輸到日本你問講銷到哪裡都有成長除了中國大陸以外你成長但是你記得商人無祖國"},{"start":9442.574,"end":9469.631,"text":"那現在這是有開放的採購我們的柚子但是農業部還在收餐到時這些像你人何氣為鬼有人跟我們買東西那你就說什麼我現在發了一個新聞你們啊專門在搞破壞你們那個農業部發一個新聞花蓮的柚子再次銷往中國大陸那裡面講到說"},{"start":9472.721,"end":9495.537,"text":"發言：在發言書中：中國的文旦檢疫不合格率將近43%我要去外燒你跟我們說我們的合格率達不到：合格率啊：不合格的不合格將近43%啊就在燒啊啊你敢不知道啊"},{"start":9498.257,"end":9505.988,"text":"我們的國小企當然有各種政治性的因素在以前的黨只有用這個來黨你們要找人家也是用這個來黨的"},{"start":9508.858,"end":9518.923,"text":"委員真的是誤會我們農產品外銷不管是哪個國家我們應該要確保我們的品質換句話說如果說我們國內沒辦法把關的話去到中國以後被退貨那才是丟臉所以我們要確保我們的優質的產品那現在檢驗不合格的有沒有出去"},{"start":9531.283,"end":9546.981,"text":"剪譯不合格的就不會出去了你講的齁我不怎麼相信我了解我們經過我們防檢局邊境剪譯不合格的話我們不會讓他出關的好啦保障品質要啦阿不要那個時間花表啦"},{"start":9547.962,"end":9574.865,"text":"過了再發表你是在跟人家縣市是在搞破壞最好你們不要來買啦我跟委員說明齁其實對於中國市場本身我們是重視每一個市場但是中國市場本身他是透過縣市政府去談相關的檢疫條件那相關的所有的世界的國家的檢疫條件都是兩國之間來談的如果只是縣市政府的話像柚子花蓮處理的那我們的台南的部分怎麼辦"},{"start":9575.566,"end":9594.186,"text":"他應該是一個國家的一個檢疫條件共同去推動的沒有你農業部的就是檢驗不合格率達到43%我不曉得我是看到這個新聞但是我相信縣政府包括農會他們常常在外銷的時候他們有自我檢驗"},{"start":9595.367,"end":9621.698,"text":"30秒嗎?"},{"start":9622.158,"end":9627.382,"text":"謝謝陳昌明委員優質而有效率的質詢,謝謝,非常感謝,非常感謝,謝謝,謝謝,部長請回座,下一位質詢請蔡議員來比照一下優質"},{"start":9654.517,"end":9656.741,"text":"好謝謝昭偉那我們就邀請部長請農業部陳部長部長好"},{"start":9666.837,"end":9688.434,"text":"部長那個我先前也有跟你聊過就是說我們針對這一個轉作的獎勵也就是綠色環境幾部那我們綠色環境幾部他是基於說維護臺灣的這個農地的資源那我們也希望減少稻米的種稻因為臺灣的稻米產量過剩的所以我們是"},{"start":9690.837,"end":9707.815,"text":"轉鼓勵農民去種雜糧作物尤其是黃小玉那就會有針對雜糧的一個獎金一個獎勵金那這個獎勵的對象也有包括G7年在G7年有種到的農地或者是有契約的甘蔗田那"},{"start":9708.942,"end":9724.015,"text":"那我要跟主委聊的就是說,我們知道說事實上有很多河川工地,阿這個河川工地勒,他沒有經濟,然後他就是會土石流,每次颱風會有土石流嘛,土石流來,他就會把整個河川兩側都會遇激啦"},{"start":9729.981,"end":9744.076,"text":"會有淤積那淤積還好喔最麻煩的就是說他在那裡生的蘿蔔樹蘿蔔樹長得比一個人還要高事實上我們過去也有在鼓勵河川地是可以開放給農民來種植"},{"start":9747.239,"end":9764.198,"text":"阿我們只是獻他說如果你是在訓期的期間你不可以種而且如果非訓期你要進非高經作務這個我想這個部長這沒有問題嘛但是看起來農民要去種植要在這個河川工地種植的誘因是不夠的"},{"start":9765.502,"end":9779.321,"text":"右營那主要的一個右營來源就是說他們並沒有這個剛剛講的這個獎勵金沒有這樣的獎勵金那我要跟主委說就是說我們如果以這一次巴掌溪在凱米颱風然後他造成的水災"},{"start":9780.442,"end":9800.651,"text":"我們看到的就是輸菌的問題,我們看到的就是這個巴展西兩側這些雜木,銀河歡長得太高了,然後影響到了輸菌所以說這個東西是連帶的,然後為了後來要解決這件事情,行政院用了28億來做加強的輸菌28億,這筆錢很大"},{"start":9806.053,"end":9833.927,"text":"那我要跟部長講就是說如果我們可以跨部會的來整合這件事情我們應該跟經濟部水利署跳出來說好我們這個河川工地鼓勵農民來工作讓農民來代為管理然後我們針對這樣的河川工地我們也給他類似這個轉做獎勵的鼓勵農民來做農民就給大家的地管理才好"},{"start":9834.927,"end":9835.928,"text":"這部分你們可以在政策上來做一個檢討嗎?"},{"start":9854.09,"end":9882.59,"text":"我謝謝委員對於核酸工地本身的一個關注那現在臺灣其實在我們在規劃國土計畫裡面大概核酸工地有大概有3萬公頃左右是在做從事一些非訊息的時候種植那委員講的我們可以認同的一個重點就是說如果農民在非訊息的時候去種植他也代為管理這個這邊核酸土地那在這樣的精神裡面可能要考慮的就是說第一個就是說我們在做獎勵的一個設計的時候"},{"start":9884.131,"end":9884.391,"text":"主席"},{"start":9909.106,"end":9922.463,"text":"暫時地號所以這部分是可以解決的只是說面積的範圍他們可能需要再跟一些相關單位把它確認起來對如果說面積是可以確定的時候我們接下來就是會"},{"start":9923.524,"end":9923.544,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":9938.933,"end":9938.953,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":9956.676,"end":9962.717,"text":"我希望這件事可以快,因為我剛剛有講這一次巴掌溪就花了28億,然後要整幾乎是差不多下游段都幾乎都要整治了。所以你說在這個時間點,我們可以隨便農民去整,他就管理得好。"},{"start":9981.621,"end":10006.978,"text":"如果我們再拖一年,你如果知道台灣這種氣候就很發燒了就發起來了,以後你等於農民說我要去租,他又要去清那些草,又陰又不見了所以我覺得很多東西就是這個時候剛好就是我們就趕快處理,讓農民醫療就來管理這裡,管理起來就很好,農民有收益,然後我們整個政府他在未來要處理要去清這一些"},{"start":10007.538,"end":10008.939,"text":"災害救助的標準災害救助"},{"start":10028.046,"end":10041.713,"text":"水稻來說,水稻如果是這個在幼苗的時候,它的災害的救助一分地是400元,是這種,我們知道現在農民,他要插糧,這個恆仔的身份,人工的身份都提高,一分地都已經到兩三千塊,所以這個天然災害的救助這個以400塊而言看起來,"},{"start":10052.138,"end":10080.9,"text":"也偏低還有上上一次來到我們東石去看那個那個楷米颱風那一次那個蚵仔順勢也很嚴重那次部長也有來那也是有去聊到說事實上針對類似這樣的蚵仔他的災害的救助6000塊也已經將近30年沒有調整了所以這樣很多的現象看起來這個天然災害的這個救助的一個標準是不是有再為檢討的一個必要"},{"start":10081.46,"end":10081.48,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":10111.66,"end":10135.557,"text":"向這個物價指數標高的時候我們也可以做一些調整所以未來會變成一個制度性的我認同你這樣的用制度性的來看待這件事情因為總部的每一個品項都要等到有人去關心他才會被變動所以因為品項很多所以你們應該定期然後有一些檢討然後去符合合理的一個災害的一個救助標準對而且我們會把這個這個"},{"start":10136.698,"end":10143.662,"text":"部長還有一個就是稻米保險的部分因為稻米保險對於農民的誘因一直是拉不起來我覺得我們有必要再花個時間再來檢討一下整個稻米保險的政策"},{"start":10164.294,"end":10181.278,"text":"我想稻米保險的部分我們會再加強努力那其實我們稻米這兩年理賠其實都蠻超額理賠大概都8點多億所以這個部分我想我們會再努力看起來是有理賠可是問題就是很奇怪這個對農民的誘因不見了然後這個很多誘因是他們從當時的1350塊不見了他們就因為這件事"},{"start":10185.319,"end":10186.5,"text":"謝謝蔡議員那個非常令人感動的諮詢"},{"start":10217.72,"end":10227.194,"text":"請邱昭偉好來請我們邱昭偉謝謝主席 請農業部陳部長來請部長"},{"start":10235.116,"end":10255.877,"text":"部長,第一個問題請教你,我們要怎麼樣優化我們對天然災害的這個補助的政策?那目前山坨的颱風,大概農損大概有4億多,目前統計起來農損大概4億多。對,但是速報的結果。速報的結果,那當然包括行政院,包括我們地方縣市首長都希望能夠用現金救助。"},{"start":10257.073,"end":10265.037,"text":"同一年是一年還是?不是,我舉個例子,蔬菜蔬菜你知道一天購一個月嘛他下次再種的話又可以,如果遇到天災就可以再領就是同一個產期"},{"start":10284.628,"end":10302.407,"text":"蔬菜產期大概是大概一個月啦那意思是說不受同曆年的限制對受產期的限制只有長期作物現在是這次的台灣跟上次的海米相隔大概兩個月對不對同樣受到農作物同樣受到重創"},{"start":10303.107,"end":10303.467,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10325.701,"end":10330.903,"text":"我認為這應該從優從寬認定包括香蕉、番石榴、蜜棗、木瓜、蓮霧它基本上目前都是全年可以生產不過它有盛產期所以如果按照這種極端氣候發生極端氣候大概是風災啦風災大概是每年4月也許到11月這半年時間"},{"start":10353.513,"end":10374.659,"text":"是不是可以放寬現金補助的那個標準我跟委員我們正在研議齁那大原則是我們可以開放可以跨年以前是歷年嘛齁可以跨年但是還是會維持一個產業我舉個例子荔枝好了那荔枝六七月齁接了以後大概他有特定的產季嘛對嘛"},{"start":10377.6,"end":10388.726,"text":"全年生產的水果類也很多全年都是產季的水果也不少那你同時碰到兩次三次的風災你現在按照規定只能離一次我覺得你們要從"},{"start":10390.247,"end":10392.548,"text":"我希望一個月之內提出一個比較明確的方案是不是檢討現今這個補助的標準跟次數讓所有的農民都能夠了解"},{"start":10418.683,"end":10422.146,"text":"農業時間定價新制反中期是今年底到期有沒有相關的配套措施?"},{"start":10444.358,"end":10444.939,"text":"水電費應該是由政府來..."},{"start":10464.614,"end":10472.162,"text":"這會變成變相的這個長電價請農業部跟經濟部再去協調一下我們不管他電價有沒有浮動有沒有下跡或什麼的我們對農業用電部分吼我們有一個優惠的那個價差的一個補貼會編到我們的公務預算"},{"start":10485.397,"end":10510.993,"text":"還不會受到這個電價波動影響對預算我們明年編列的24億就是處理這個我講結論啦齁你今年年底到期這個用電價新制緩衝期之後他用新的電價機制他會不會增加成本他所增加的成本由農業部來編預算來吸收所以不會增加額外的成本是這樣子嗎要講什麼呢價差就是價差價差由農業部來吸收來吸收對"},{"start":10512.165,"end":10538.198,"text":"第三個問題,糧食自給率啊,糧食自給率的部分啊,這個你看這個拜登也神經清楚強化糧食以農業安全的內心,這是國家安全的一個重要的政策,對不對?那我們糧食安全的自給率目前還是偏低啊,所以目前你一個有一個推動小組,你應該要跟最起碼跟這個美國跟日本韓國來看齊,我們現在糧食自給率是多少?只有33.5對不對?"},{"start":10540.492,"end":10544.956,"text":"應該是30.7然後今年度可能變成30.4日本、韓國40億、40億、45啦你要有短、中、長期的目標要怎麼讓自己能夠提高這點很重要"},{"start":10559.144,"end":10574.513,"text":"我想我們設有短通長期目標也跟委員說明我們現在糧食之旅被拉下來最主要是飼料用的玉米跟大豆90%大概96%都是進口的那相對的我們的主要的稻米超過100%水產也超過100%"},{"start":10578.616,"end":10593.474,"text":"特殊的這個農產品我們是沒有問題的但是你要整個從全盤的概念來看我是覺得這個整體的糧食自給還有提高空間我是覺得你們是不是要一段時間要提出糧食安全白皮書"},{"start":10594.821,"end":10598.423,"text":"農業保險的效能除了強制性的保險之外我們的從109完成立法之後開始"},{"start":10623.519,"end":10631.427,"text":"是上升之後一直到今年又下降所以到整體的覆蓋率還不高覆蓋率扣除強制性保險只有17.3"},{"start":10633.992,"end":10634.292,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10655.262,"end":10682.292,"text":"那我們所了解就是說本身的這些這些理賠的價格不符合農民的預期啦然後保費的部分雖然說有補助可是你理賠的的價格我們用什麼樣的誘因再去刺激誘因才有意願嘛我知道那你整個產品的設計也要符合他們的需求了解這點很重要有一部分是屬於商業保險的部分我們會再跟商業保險公司來談因為農業扛這個綠能的責任是多少要要達到多少多少目標"},{"start":10685.56,"end":10699.829,"text":"農業20GB綠能就是20GB目前達成率是多少現在目前達成率大概我們現在是3.74我們農業部負責的大概是9GB你要去檢討為什麼會達成率那麼低問題處理對我時間關係我做教育要準經準時我要以身作則"},{"start":10711.971,"end":10713.452,"text":"請農業部提交書面資料給我,謝謝"},{"start":10740.033,"end":10744.836,"text":"主席各位有請主委來部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":10772.35,"end":10798.569,"text":"委員長好這個針對花蓮因為地震地震0403地震加上凱米颱風再加上不斷的移震不斷的移震造成這個道路不論是公路蘇哈公路還有北威鐵路一再的不通"},{"start":10800.194,"end":10807.336,"text":"所以為了再獲得振興,農業部7月1號推出這個250元的花蓮農產品的優惠券當時這個規劃是這樣,然後整個經費當初是1.83億,那一季7月1號發行"},{"start":10823.762,"end":10842.921,"text":"當然隨著相關的這些整個災情整個交通然後加上最近的台風也都造成了很大的影響請教一下這個部長"},{"start":10844.164,"end":10857.008,"text":"目前這個時勢的狀況怎麼樣我跟委員報告就是0403以後我們為了振興花蓮的這些農產品能夠順利的能夠吸引外地人來買那我們規劃的那個農粉券的部分大概預計是70萬張"},{"start":10859.549,"end":10887.014,"text":"到目前為止已經大概使用了大概40萬張左右啦,44萬張左右所以這個部分我們執行率大概六成到七成然後我們也因為0403以後交通又陸續的就中斷過嘛所以我們也考慮把農粉券這個日期能夠特別是第二類的從電商平台那邊去購買花蓮產品的部分能夠延到大概11月或12月的部分,我們會視情況而定"},{"start":10889.314,"end":10894.522,"text":"呃部長齁40本來是議定多少70萬張70萬現在是40萬齁44萬那如果這7分在花蓮"},{"start":10901.707,"end":10929.136,"text":"使用的跟在我們這樣分以外的第一類我們分兩類一類就是你要人要到花蓮然後期間之內買第二類就是說你在電商平台買花蓮的農產品那大概有將近39萬到40萬是到花蓮的然後剩下大概4萬左右是用第二類的就是電商平台的好這個部分所以當初你們原來那個"},{"start":10931.124,"end":10934.48,"text":"有定期限嗎那個有什麼我是說那個"},{"start":10936.199,"end":10963.193,"text":"以下名稱改稱什麼農粉劍農粉劍農粉劍農粉幣農粉幣裡面會有期限嗎應該這麼講本來有一定的期限要11月吧現在可能會延到12月但是你第一類的就是你到了花蓮觀光有沒有你去買的時候有沒有你要7天之內要用完因為我們鼓勵他在地消費"},{"start":10966.095,"end":10983.163,"text":"這個部分這個時間的一個關係就是說整個本來要去消費的結果確實沒有嘛因為交通中斷了就沒有去這是一種狀況所以這個部分要請這個"},{"start":10985.185,"end":11003.375,"text":"農業部隨時看這個整個執行的狀況能夠做彈性的調整上次我在這邊也有提到執行的時候也有提到所以當初你們也同意隨機應變這個部分怎麼樣能夠真正落實"},{"start":11008.418,"end":11025.692,"text":"能夠去最好,我們鼓勵去,現在很多的團體包括觀光署他們也鼓勵能夠去當然我們農業部其實有很多的附屬機關有在花蓮"},{"start":11029.5,"end":11038.256,"text":"有在臺東其實你們可以相關的交通部也在鼓勵各位相關的會議現在這個"},{"start":11043.046,"end":11043.306,"text":"好 非常感謝 非常感謝"},{"start":11072.639,"end":11084.837,"text":"好接下來這個有關這個農業部的報告裡面有提到這個農民退休儲金上次我也提到了怎麼樣去加強"},{"start":11086.121,"end":11086.521,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11104.261,"end":11104.281,"text":"委員會議長"},{"start":11134.822,"end":11155.804,"text":"最後的這個部分這個有關最近114年度的總預算之所以在立法院在這期委員會停留在那邊就是因為原住民的禁法補償"},{"start":11158.801,"end":11184.808,"text":"2001年英國的生態經濟學博士提爾斯說一個岩石林的碳匯價值一公頃是2000美金這個是2001年說的2000美金就差不多6萬塊台幣6萬多了台幣現在已經20幾年了所以大概不止了所以這個部分我們在這個"},{"start":11187.654,"end":11209.913,"text":"碳費的話,前幾天環境部估算每年一季將有60億元的碳費收入當然本來不止啦,但是他們這次壓得很低啦只有60億而這些經費本來我們原住民的立委,我本席也想替這個"},{"start":11211.713,"end":11234.305,"text":"原明會本來應該是農業部要編的一算 森林法院是你們的主管機關我本來想說其他的像碳費也可以投入在這個部分 但是很可惜本席在上一屆提出這個條文修正的時候沒有通過"},{"start":11236.658,"end":11258.832,"text":"未來會再修氣候應變簽法的相關法案也請農業部到時候要去跟環境部協調說明而確實是整個森林原住民就是守護這個森林"},{"start":11262.125,"end":11262.185,"text":"主席"},{"start":11275.344,"end":11294.832,"text":"我們再來看看用什麼方法,因為整個森林的部分,如果說它是造林的部分,再撫育的部分,我想農業部都能夠來協助。對,好,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝鄭天才委員,非常精準有效率的質詢,謝謝。部長請回座。下一位質詢請...請賴樂文委員質詢。"},{"start":11308.866,"end":11309.047,"text":"請農業部陳部長"},{"start":11317.039,"end":11318.98,"text":"我跟委員說明 上次的楷米颱風最主要是"},{"start":11346.101,"end":11349.282,"text":"所以你們會把它給整併在一起做處理嗎?還是你會怎麼處理?"},{"start":11375.411,"end":11396.238,"text":"這個獨立事件但是相對的就是我們會盡快的齁我們的同仁大概高頻率去看大概什麼時候可以今天下午到明天我們一定會公告齁全品項的部分我們會公告然後免現根的部分我們也會公告那個高雄跟屏東這次大概受災最嚴重但那個台東也嚴重那我說這兩個縣市都已經提出全品項我希望"},{"start":11396.678,"end":11421.686,"text":"部長能夠我們基本上專家會議正在開那我所得到訊息大概會開這個全品項的部分但是應該是會支持全品項對但是免限刊的部分會根據作物項目而不一樣主要的受災的作物項目會開免限刊但是上一次領過的不能再領大概是這樣這個當然啦上次如果已經有領過了這麼短的時間內就好那所以今天應該就是會全品項會確定了對今天晚上"},{"start":11422.846,"end":11440.157,"text":"我回去以後我會批 或者是最慢明天早上就會公佈全米巷整個公佈了好 謝謝部長那什麼時候可以把這些的競速的給到這些農民身上我想齁如果是免掀根的部分齁我們希望說只要照片就認定了"},{"start":11441.158,"end":11442.24,"text":"部長這樣重述的話可以多快?"},{"start":11453.928,"end":11475.854,"text":"重述的話 這個要看公所的部分 我們現在跟公所協調有沒有一個目標值 什麼 多久時間大概一個月到40天之內 我們希望說趕一下好不好 我們希望一個月內把它完成好不好就是盡量 最快時間讓這些受到風災的競速來完成我在這邊也跟委員說明 就是公所在當你開全品項的時候 公所的負擔是非常大的"},{"start":11477.414,"end":11502.03,"text":"所以我們也希望說 縣市政府的工作 縣市政府能夠幫忙整個群力來協助好不好 群力來協助再來我請教一下 今天立法院因為現在還沒有審總預算 那我看到這個從新興的到新增計畫到前瞻的部分大概有414億會受到影響 其他既有大概照做部長 那如果遲遲的沒有來審這個總預算 這些部分怎麼來進行"},{"start":11502.91,"end":11504.651,"text":"部長,那如果沒有的話,你有什麼樣的..."},{"start":11525.083,"end":11546.456,"text":"沒有的部分我們可能會針對我們原來的預算因為有很多治水預算、農水路的預算是新增的嘛那如果說原來的預算還有一些的話我們原來預算會先處理但是那個處理量能就會弱很多啦所以我們還是希望說總預算能夠儘速的赴委來跟委員報告相關的預算我們的執行的目標"},{"start":11548.338,"end":11565.229,"text":"我看到裡面有很多是涉及到跟地方政府補助大概286億的部分那這個部分也會受到影響嗎因為它也是新增跟整個新的計畫部分那如果其實沒有通過這286億就不能執行囉對就不能沒辦法做所以我們希望還是希望盡快立法院"},{"start":11566.129,"end":11583.604,"text":"行政院提出預算 立法院審議本來就職責啦 憲政職責 那應該儘速來審議 有問題的部分 要刪減要凍結都可以來進行討論 但是全面沒辦法進到來 我覺得這個立法院反而會失職啦所以我們希望委員能夠支持 然後盡快讓我們的預算能夠送副委送審"},{"start":11584.224,"end":11605.486,"text":"再來我請教一下其實這一次的斑斑喝鮮奶其實我認為是一個很好的政策啦因為孩子們多喝鮮奶那我看到昨天高雄很多地方也都開始在鮮奶的利用第二節下課時間來發那大概有些不能執行我看到我今天七成選包酒乳啦大概他們遇到問題都是因為可能是因為冷戀的部分"},{"start":11606.407,"end":11606.908,"text":"部長你應該支持多推鮮乳對不對?"},{"start":11627.284,"end":11646.096,"text":"我們基本上當因為鮮乳跟保酒是一樣好品質都好但是用鮮乳的部分也許如果大家願意喝鮮乳我們希望也鼓勵喝鮮乳所以我們會讓鮮乳的冷鏈能夠確保讓消費者就是學校的這些訂閱者或者學童放心的時候他訂單就會慢慢的會做一點調整"},{"start":11646.736,"end":11663.076,"text":"所以農業部這邊會持續協助做冷鏈這一塊對 這個部分我們在規範裡面就是說先爐的部分冷鏈車到了學校有保冷袋能夠分送來確保他全程就是在一個控溫的條件之下去發放"},{"start":11664.428,"end":11665.488,"text":"對,我們會提供比較安全的資訊給這些學校"},{"start":11692.124,"end":11715.832,"text":"可不可以給我一份報告好不好一個月內給我一份你們推動的報告我希望這一個比例部長有沒有一個目標啦知道什麼時候提升到一個比例孩子們會選擇多少比例一定是他的便利性跟安全性的信任啦對農業部來講喔只要是牛奶都是好的不管是保酒乳跟鮮乳那保酒乳跟鮮乳基本上就是由學校來定但是我們會把相關的背景資訊會提供給學校"},{"start":11718.273,"end":11736.802,"text":"也讓他知道鮮乳沒有比較不安全讓他們在這個充分的資訊的前提之下去做自己的選擇我相信如果在同樣的條件下安全跟保險各方面顧慮一下我相信會更多人選擇鮮乳的選擇啦我認為他們對於不選鮮乳我覺得他們的顧慮應該來自於是安全或者是保"},{"start":11739.923,"end":11740.263,"text":"我個人認為中國市場他的"},{"start":11763.78,"end":11764.06,"text":"文彈的部分"},{"start":11780.879,"end":11807.931,"text":"那他的時間又非常短實際上以我們現在統計到的資料文旦大概有6萬多噸全臺灣的財產包括現在對於那個34項農產品也開始對於科證關稅所以我覺得他其實很有策略的去那我要講的是說其實對於一個專制的國家其實風險本來就很高他要給你不給你養套殺的部分在當年的時候2005年他可以給你養到給你套但是到現在你不聽他的或那個他就給你殺所以我認為對於專制"},{"start":11809.372,"end":11812.093,"text":"我跟委員報告就是持續開發中國以外高端市場是我們的政策那以數字為例過去3年來輸大陸以外的從38億變成4億"},{"start":11831.078,"end":11831.258,"text":"請王育民委員"},{"start":11864.824,"end":11865.625,"text":"9月21 去年9月11開始代理"},{"start":11886.688,"end":11904.819,"text":"對 去年我在台中市擔任副市長的時候我們還有一起共同合作這個恭喜你升官但是責任重大本期今天呢就要跟你反映的是有關於我們這個災後補助的問題剛剛前面一個委員提到是最近的三坨的颱風但我要讓你看的這個是上一次凱米颱風它也是橫掃整個嘉義縣這個蚵農它所有的這個蚵棚的流失"},{"start":11913.164,"end":11913.384,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11940.828,"end":11963.254,"text":"10萬10萬左右差不多10萬喔差不多10萬到十幾萬嗎對啊好你估的這個是10萬那你認為你補助個5000然後柯農辛辛苦苦就是架起來這樣棚架颱風一來一掃全部都沒有了心血付諸流水你認為這樣的一個補助有沒有到位要不要再繼續檢討"},{"start":11964.707,"end":11982.913,"text":"我分兩個部分第一個部分就是我們天然災救助本身的精神是補助他成本的20%為基準大概有高高低低他不是為了他的實際的損失那第二個部分我也認為"},{"start":11984.404,"end":11990.429,"text":"這樣的一個救助的金額應該做定期的檢討。那這個部分我想我們已經在做了。"},{"start":12004.56,"end":12004.6,"text":"主席"},{"start":12023.587,"end":12024.167,"text":"部長有沒有機會到阿里山去?"},{"start":12051.158,"end":12079.445,"text":"我從午夜到現在應該去過了兩次了吧有去過兩次有沒有吃過阿里山山上的這個山葵山葵有沒有人招待你吃應該以前有吃過這兩次去好像沒吃到沒吃過齁那你下次我們一起上山齁請你吃齁這個山葵齁阿里山的山葵真的味道非常的好你自己有沒有覺得你以前吃了嗎我知道我在農業實驗所所長的時候我就是推這個山葵到阿里山去的對"},{"start":12080.245,"end":12108.285,"text":"那很好但是現在呢當地的農民跟我反映喔就是他們現在因為為了保護這個林巷所以以前有一些可以種山葵的現在不行嘛但是呢農民他們自己現在研發出來其實你們也研發出來他們可以呢變成是林下的經濟作物他已經可以變成是太空包農民跟我說他們可以用太空包就是來種山葵出來也不會破壞你的林巷那現在其實你們包括八月份你們也才"},{"start":12108.945,"end":12132.133,"text":"新增加三個項目我今天就是要幫阿里山的山魁請命就是可不可以把它納入你們的林下經濟作物創造雙贏因為它的品質真的非常的好我覺得如果可以讓它的量再增加的話可以進到五星級的飯店甚至可以出口就是幫助這個農民增加非常多的收入可不可以去演繹"},{"start":12132.873,"end":12153.638,"text":"我跟委員說明,就是林下經濟有一個非常重要的就是,不是任何作物都倒進去,我們最擔心的就是它的農藥的噴灑,影響了生態。所以後續我會去了解就是說,新的這些山葵的種植方法是不是真的達到友善,而且是不使用農藥的方式。如果是的話,我想我們可以來考慮看有什麼方式來處理。"},{"start":12154.258,"end":12155.118,"text":"下一位質詢．黃建斌委員"},{"start":12190.488,"end":12214.271,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請我們農業部的陳部長農業部陳部長委員好部長好部長其實本席在前天夜帶到經濟委員會來這邊質詢其實最主要的還是針對這次山脫颱風對台東造成的這個傷害希望各部位能來協助"},{"start":12216.264,"end":12242.425,"text":"部長你來自基站,我相信你也非常了解農民辛苦,農民看天吃飯,生意又不穩定那這次山頭有重創台東縣的南迴地區那很多的農地,很多機具都被土石流無情的沖走掩埋那災民也非常辛苦,他苦苦等著中央來協助像我們的總統去了他的金山跟萬里老家"},{"start":12243.226,"end":12271.703,"text":"那部長你陪行政院長到屏東看齋那副院長去了竹民美術館那不過災害發生到現在我們還沒有看到那一個中央部會的首長有在台東觀行齁那不禁讓很多台東人感慨我們身為這塊土地上的每一個同樣是這塊土地上的一份子卻感受是三等公民的待遇那保證你身為我們農業的大家庭臺台的官民都期待你來臺台看齋"},{"start":12274.202,"end":12280.915,"text":"本席在這個禮拜五也會邀請相關部會到臺東勘猜早上原民會主委也答應本席部長你可不可以一起下來"},{"start":12282.468,"end":12305.463,"text":"第一個部分我跟委員說明就是我們的勘災特別是臺中地區它最嚴重的地區在臺馬的地區還有鳳梨世家那鳳梨世家是有一些延遲性的部分然後禮拜五的勘災因為禮拜五的總諮詢剛好輪到經濟委員會所以變成說我們農業部必須在總諮詢的時候在院會所以可能沒辦法參加我可以請我們的市長去參加謝謝部長"},{"start":12312.048,"end":12313.213,"text":"那我想"},{"start":12315.246,"end":12344.689,"text":"這次的颱風好大雨對台東縣的造成很嚴重的農損剛剛像我們高雄市長陳吉邁市長也說要跟中央機制爭取這個全品項的現金救助那剛剛部長也說明天全品項的救助都會全部公布出來對不對現金的保溫都會公布對我們會根據今天早上開的今天早上我們次長在開的專家會議的決議我們確定了以後我們最慢今天或者是明天早上就會公布可是"},{"start":12345.009,"end":12350.091,"text":"部長,因為現在都還在搶修當中,所以還沒有正確的處處理。所以部長分析也要求說,是不是用比照辦理就好?理論上是真的在宣傳什麼比較?"},{"start":12369.68,"end":12386.227,"text":"的公告的標準是一致性的不會說不同的地方有不同的標準那臺東地區我剛才說了臺東地區有一些延遲性的災損那現在是看不到的那後續如果說有真的有災損發生的時候我們也會公告好謝謝部長部長"},{"start":12389.228,"end":12412.541,"text":"在風災過後,我們台中農開場有發一篇新聞,說虎爺農有趕快復耕,本期也是支持,希望趕快復耕,減少損害,但是部長不是農民要復耕就可以,他的先決條件是什麼?農路要通,路要先通,部長這個是這一次,昨天本期看到的畫面,這個農路都毀損了,而且土石嚴重,那這個部分,"},{"start":12414.182,"end":12441.908,"text":"不只農路很多農地也都沖刷原本那個河川的自體線都已經越過了那個整個赤家園都是土石根本沒辦法復耕那這部分要請部長能夠多增加一些預算來協助臺東縣這次災害的復建我想第一個部分就是農水路的這些修繕的部分農業部在農業部權責的範圍之內我們一定會協助那第二個部分就是這次的颱風的部分那行政院有請縣市政府提報"},{"start":12442.808,"end":12468.681,"text":"因為這次颱風造成的這些道路的損害的時候能夠提到中央 中央會撥相關的經費來協助謝謝部長 部長本來最後一次來補充這個都是一角而已 因為這是目前清道的部分可以看得到的山上還有很多地方還沒有被發現那還不包括整個野溪河床的淤積的沙子的清淤的部分這部分再請部長能夠來盡力的協助台中縣政府"},{"start":12469.281,"end":12469.561,"text":"中嘉賓委員"},{"start":12492.908,"end":12515.285,"text":"主席在堂委員先 中委不好意思我再宣告一下今天上午質詢到因為謝一鳳委員已經到場今天上午質詢到謝一鳳委員質詢結束我們休息到兩點半再繼續開會好 謝謝我就問候一個省略了就有請我們陳部長跟農糧署的署長請陳部長 農糧署署長"},{"start":12524.058,"end":12529.644,"text":"部長我的重點就這兩個標題 農損救濟跟農業設施 來我們看一下這是凱米颱風 屏東損失 農損破4億 在7月份的時候 是不是全國最多的應該是 那請問從7月到現在 這個救助已經都發出去了嗎"},{"start":12543.581,"end":12572.04,"text":"我們大概我們預估的進來大概是49億然後現在播了大概16億吧21億20幾億那有一部分是因為公所限補還沒送上來那我們原則是送上來三天之內我們就會播廣那個部長您給我們一個很清楚的流程民眾在問我們要告訴他還是公所還沒送啦還是館長還沒送啦還是農業部還沒播清楚給我們知道好不好是不是下個月之前都可以領得到"},{"start":12574.438,"end":12575.419,"text":"請問這次救助項目什麼時候公布?"},{"start":12596.73,"end":12617.123,"text":"現在我們正在開專家會議然後開專家會議開完以後確認以後最快今天今天質詢結束以後我會回去簽或者是明天早上一定會公告上週六你有陪同卓院長到我們訪寮到我們家東雖然你沒有到我的選區裡來我還是去陪同也去了解農民關係的問題我端蓋太順了有穿過這次我們就想知道可以穿嗎"},{"start":12621.287,"end":12643.63,"text":"這個要看你的作物是不是同一個產期,如果說葉菜類的話不在同一個產期是可以的所以說短期作物已經復耕就可以重複申請,如果短期作物受損還沒復耕就無法申請,但是長期作物哪些品項可以申請我們現在目前就是我們正在重新去調整,過往都是以歷年制,歷年過一個年,那現在就是說我們希望說"},{"start":12644.949,"end":12648.714,"text":"在同一個產期不能重複領那不同產期就可以"},{"start":12660.948,"end":12671.611,"text":"這個香蕉的部分我們可能還要再去處理,實際的處理,因為香蕉有新植有新芽的部分,那這個會比較複雜屏東這是香蕉太順暢嚴重,等一下我就繼續問下去,除了農損之外,還有什麼?我請教署長你要了解,有什麼叫香蕉的,有一張香蕉一隻阿公啦,香蕉條,有兩張用一支,你知不知道什麼原因?"},{"start":12685.967,"end":12692.833,"text":"有的是牙管 有的是主管 有的用一支 有的兩張用一支 有的一張用一支 防風 最主要是防風對啦 其實農民都很害怕啦 有時候他們兩張拔一支他要生殖啦 結果現在我看到兩張拔一支都凍了啦"},{"start":12705.543,"end":12707.405,"text":"其實農業設施的耐厚性抗厚性很重要"},{"start":12723.743,"end":12739.161,"text":"有時候農民要生殖,電到全部都損失了了,你了解齁?所以接下來我們來看一下,這次的資產損毀是更嚴重,你緊張倒起來就賺嘛,緊張知道就賣嘛,但是整個門塞沒過,扣過,都少了了,那個農業資產損失更慘重,不是嗎?"},{"start":12741.443,"end":12756.765,"text":"那請問自台純維要怎麼救助?我跟委員說明齁,就是藝術家講的忙碌的部分齁,那其實當天我在現場也有提到,那是雖然說是廉務的部分齁,因為過去的網子你如果說用比較粗網目的,一次台風就破掉了。"},{"start":12757.786,"end":12779.033,"text":"有更好的材料動作更久,對不對?對,但是,所以我們有一個政策就是說,你用比較強化的這些往事的話,我們可以把補助的金額拉高,讓農民引導到...這就對了啦,有時候要省錢,等一下轉料啦,有時候多花一塊,你用的設施有耐耗性比較強。對,我們會朝這個方向去做。所以我的訴求,主席站起來了齁,"},{"start":12779.973,"end":12797.443,"text":"平東的災區要多點的寬容,我最好兩句講一下第一個,平東縣的全縣的農業業能納入天環災救助項目請盡快來協助第二個,補助資材的材料費用要往鼓勵農民給他有誘因,強化他採用抗後性較佳的,可以嗎?"},{"start":12798.243,"end":12798.523,"text":"今天上午"},{"start":12832.143,"end":12841.354,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請農業部的陳部長還有薛牧師市長李市長新來的"},{"start":12851.87,"end":12865.434,"text":"市長,你建議進口的鮮乳都改名為長效乳,衛福部有沒有採納你的看法?"},{"start":12865.939,"end":12885.391,"text":"我想我們農業部的立場是一致的我們還是跟衛生部建議是用長效爐這個特別是90天的部分但是衛生部有收到我們政治的公文但是他們後面還要開會去討論因為他們考量的面向可能跟我們是不一樣的但最後的決定權是在衛生部"},{"start":12886.112,"end":12902.427,"text":"最後的紀律定權是在衛福部是不是那你看到了這是衛福部他們在6月5號預告的他預告的方向跟目前我們國內的糯農他們的想法是不是不一致"},{"start":12903.547,"end":12931.083,"text":"是有不一致的地方然後我們根據這個預告我們也再次跟衛務部溝通希望說他能夠採納我們的方案所以你有再去溝通了嗎?我們應該有吧,有再去溝通,對是畜牧師長他們去的?是所以你有再發文跟他說了嗎?你有表達清楚我們國內弱農業者的心聲嗎?對,我們再發了兩次我想我們跟弱農是站在一起的而且我們的立場不會改變"},{"start":12932.023,"end":12932.123,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":12944.9,"end":12969.489,"text":"共同的契約裡面,它是鮮乳是16元,對不對?14加2,2塊錢是運費,就是16塊。16塊嘛,對不對?那16塊的部分,我想請問部長,你長期以來都了解國內的牛乳的生產成本,那我們國內牛乳一瓶生產的成本是多少錢?"},{"start":12971.294,"end":12996.431,"text":"我想我們訂這個價格也是根據爐廠大家討論還有它的生產成本討論那現在看到零售端的價格它不能來比因為在超市端它有30%的上架費然後還有很多然後我們這次在跟爐廠談的時候我們把爐品送到學校去其實也有品牌的效益在裡面所以綜合的考量是用14塊去做訂而且是跟爐廠有做討論過的"},{"start":12998.297,"end":13020.049,"text":"可是我們看到了這是根據上下游他長期以來我們那個徐教授說國內的生乳的收購價格是26元那美國跟紐西蘭是15.76元跟14.5元那這樣子的價格的差異導致了"},{"start":13021.861,"end":13038.01,"text":"會不會我們的乳品沒有競爭力我想我們在推這樣的一個政策的過程中就是透過消費端去擴大我們的使用者的需求那學校未同學童加蓋其實它會帶動學童喝牛奶的習慣也會帶動家長"},{"start":13039.671,"end":13058.863,"text":"所以換句話說前端目前的生產成本可能比較高所以我們要想辦法讓我們的生產效率提高特別是把寡產牛去做一個淘汰所以在完整的弱農的方案裡面有一部分是把寡產牛做淘汰把乳量做計畫性的生產現在大概47.2萬噸每一年我們的目標是43萬噸如果43萬噸的話它的價格就會可以拉上去"},{"start":13064.397,"end":13085.93,"text":"但是你講的這是就是一連串的一個改變嘛但是如果那還沒看到結果嘛那就是寡產的生乳量比較少的那些牛如果沒有就是淘汰掉了以後那我們的牛乳的生產的成本"},{"start":13086.894,"end":13104.957,"text":"那也沒有降低呢?但也要仰賴著全就是世界的原物料的價格嘛,是不是?我跟委員說明齁,這次我們訂14塊是這一學期,然後我們會隨時去檢討,如果它的價格的確有比較偏低的情況之下,我們在下一期就會做調整。"},{"start":13106.014,"end":13131.446,"text":"對,因為你現在跟我們國內的生乳收購的價格的確比較起來就不一致嘛是不是就有很大的差異性嘛那這跟你強調的你要按照落農業的永續政策就是推廣國產的生乳這樣子的一個想法也相當的背道而馳嘛"},{"start":13132.166,"end":13156.162,"text":"我跟委員報告你這邊所提供的資料是每一公斤好像這邊14.5塊那我們是195毫升是14塊所以它之間不是用直接這樣做對比我當然知道所以我們會去我說這個是價格的差異性那但是未來這是成本價嘛那未來如果"},{"start":13157.165,"end":13185.943,"text":"好了等紐西蘭牛乳又進口了那會不會產生有混沖的現象我有看到啦你們有提供了混沖的方法學嘛是是不是但是要到明年才會才才可以成功嘛是不是明年下半年我想那今年呢整個方法學已經送到衛福部我們也希望他盡快的審完第二個部分就是我們有貼出百分之百國產鮮乳的標章特別是在什麼時候可以審完什麼時候可以審"},{"start":13186.483,"end":13206.272,"text":"這個要我們再跟衛福部溝通看看可不可以盡快啦但是相對的我們有貼標章就是百分之百的國產乳的部分希望做市場的鮮乳標章的部分我們會特別如果你標了這個東西我想就是就是一個一個必須要百分之百的對可是你如果混的時候你就要被罰"},{"start":13207.032,"end":13224.702,"text":"我們標了本地的鮮乳可是我們就沒有辦法來沒有檢驗的方法的時候這明年才會出來我們就沒有辦法在今年可以做相關的檢驗是不是我現在的做法是這樣子第一個我希望衛福部趕快盡速的通過"},{"start":13225.162,"end":13225.342,"text":"還有就是"},{"start":13251.321,"end":13267.935,"text":"關於氣候變遷我們知道現在葡萄的種植第一個他要什麼時候種因為氣候的影響加劇導致於他現在沒有辦法像過去一樣預估這個耕種的期間你有發現這個嗎"},{"start":13270.277,"end":13288.117,"text":"我們有發現其實氣候變遷對於整個的產區往北移甚至於適當的栽培期已經有變化了造成很大的困擾所以是不是應該要鼓勵農民變成溫室的種植我們一向是鼓勵所以我們過去有溫室的補助是四年兩千"},{"start":13294.053,"end":13300.579,"text":"所以你們是不是應該要協助我們這些葡萄農民來增加就是說來讓他們就是變成溫室因為如果不是溫室的時候他們對於這種氣候異常的情況可能會加劇"},{"start":13320.677,"end":13321.298,"text":"還有一個題目就是我們現在"},{"start":13343.118,"end":13367.016,"text":"每年除魚的量是62萬公噸但是如果我們以標準的除魚的方式我們沒有辦法達到減碳現在如果有就是說我們是不是農業部應該要協助這些除魚的處理廠商尤其是我們有一些像黑水蟒這樣子的生物來協助我們來"},{"start":13372.179,"end":13373.18,"text":"在方法學部分"},{"start":13381.806,"end":13382.767,"text":"部長可不可以協助?"},{"start":13402.712,"end":13427.946,"text":"對,因為台灣的廚餘就是這麼多當然我們不希望它一直變多我們希望減少但是事實上的情況就是這樣子那如果能夠達到檢探的目標的這樣子的情況下我希望我們應該要共同來協作好不好我們會努力來做特別是黑水盲它變成是一個蛋白質的主要來源那個是一個非常好的蛋白質來源"},{"start":13428.766,"end":13429.487,"text":"現在我們休息 下午2點30分繼續開會"},{"start":21990.046,"end":21991.347,"text":"主席麻煩請我們陳部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":22019.879,"end":22020.087,"text":"委員好"},{"start":22020.506,"end":22048.299,"text":"部長,早上很多委員其實也都關心這次颱風的一個災損造成很多地方的一個農損的狀況那包括本席的選區北海岸其實這一次這個大雨造成整個這個角白損以及相關的一個農田苗田也都已經有造成狀況那我想你也聽到很多的心聲都希望說能夠讓這個趕快公告我們的這個農損的一個申請補助的辦法對不對"},{"start":22050.32,"end":22079.823,"text":"什麼時候會來做來說明一下我跟委員報告我們大概分兩個階段去處理第一個階段就是說針對我們農業部可以主動公告的部分我們先處理那另外這個部分我想我們今天早上主動公告可以什麼時候出來我跟委員說明我們今天早上已經開了專家會議那針對新北市特別是在金山萬里山芝的部分的盆花的部分盆花的部分基本上我們已經公告為現金"},{"start":22080.783,"end":22080.963,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":22100.694,"end":22110.262,"text":"好那因為現在我們看到是說有些反應是農損通報機制不管是用作為所謂的APP這個農民反應上手也不一定那麼的"},{"start":22111.71,"end":22114.152,"text":"第一個部分就是"},{"start":22136.647,"end":22155.164,"text":"我們也考慮到相公所因為這次楷米跟這次的山頭鵝本身那個量比較大所以我們在最新的預告的部分我們有預告修天然災害救助辦法可以去做適當的展延而不是說限定在10天之內讓申報的人人流可以疏散可是聽說是一個月嘛是不是"},{"start":22155.919,"end":22181.687,"text":"沒有,申報是10天,但是我們可以延長,而且是變成工作天。是,所以延長到多少的時間?沒有,本來是10天的日曆天,現在延長變成工作天,然後必要的時候還可以再延5天,5個工作日。那這樣的話可以稀釋公所這邊的人力,短時間的人力的壓力。那第二個部分就是,天然災害的相片是一個免線竿的時候的一個補助的作為。"},{"start":22182.427,"end":22211.125,"text":"那我們後續也會提供一些後台的資訊比如說他有產銷履歷就很明確知道種什麼作物的時候他連照片都不用那第三個部分就是照片的時候如果在山區的時候沒有影像你先照了回家還是可以上傳所以我們現在發現說整個的盲點是在公所本身的負荷量太大所以我們有很多的作為是希望說就是我們希望主管機關能夠看到第一線的工作同仁的辛苦"},{"start":22211.485,"end":22234.539,"text":"那尤其是像照片拍完之後地方政府還要不要再去做現場會刊?不用不用齁?是好這個這個確定不用部長今天回答因為我們之前還反映有一些地方政府還回復說這個是在接收通報之後還有現場會刊免現刊的品項你只要有照片證明你種這個作物的時候就不用再看了"},{"start":22236.32,"end":22242.683,"text":"部長我們就一起努力讓這個災損可以趕快來去移工部長那另外我在上個禮拜一的時候也關心這個灌水牛的事件那時候是請我們的次長來回答我說整個13處的這個屠宰場的"},{"start":22257.051,"end":22281.419,"text":"的狀況現在有沒有去做全面的一個釐清我想我們所瞭解的就是說現在目前宰牛的場數有13場那有14個屠宰縣的部分那從104年開始其實因為屠宰大概分為幾個區域一個是四流區那一個是有關於製葷的然後剝皮的還有出貨的我們都有監控器去做監控那麼晚進來你對我們的時間那麼的那麼的盯緊就對了"},{"start":22286.663,"end":22297.121,"text":"所以部長我只確認一下他這一次的這個灌水牛的屠宰場是不是到最後開罰只有10多萬"},{"start":22298.086,"end":22298.426,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22318.573,"end":22347.286,"text":"因為灌水是絕對不能到的部分當然而且他可能不是第一次也不是第一支對不對部長我們該修法本期也會提出相關的修法但是我更希望是說農業部要拿出態度來在這種事情上面不要讓那種非法的手段持續不斷發生了解謝謝好謝謝洪孟凱委員部長請回座還好沒有插詞很多只有插詞兩分鐘而已"},{"start":22354.305,"end":22354.926,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請陳部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":22384.677,"end":22411.203,"text":"部長辛苦 因為上個禮拜六部長也有跟院長一起到我們屏東來勘栽我們屏東的情形這麼嚴重了 了解部長我想所有的委員也都在關心這次農損的一個處理的一個機制那目前截至目前為止我們屏東縣的農損超過2億多 是全台最多那面積大概有將近1900公頃 有20多種的住屋受損"},{"start":22412.183,"end":22439.898,"text":"那沿海的養殖戶的部分也有4000多萬的損失那續產部分也有大概600萬的損失那就本席瞭解我們屏東縣政府在10月6號已經把相關的資訊這個已經有發文到我們部裡面那請教部長什麼時候可以來核定我想跟委員說明就是屏東縣政府大概是昨天傍晚的時候文就是請求就是選民家免簽竿的部分已經送上來了"},{"start":22441.238,"end":22461.663,"text":"今天早上我們部裡面由我們的次長召開專家會議,因為包括全品向免限刊一定要有專家會議去做一個確認那今天早上的會議的結果,針對屏東縣的部分,我講的是農糧的事先處理,農糧的部分是全縣全品向免限刊,針對西瓜木瓜香蕉番石榴紅果"},{"start":22462.683,"end":22463.764,"text":"我想跟委員說明"},{"start":22487.103,"end":22510.434,"text":"他在不同的產季,像葉菜類有沒有,一定不會在那邊蓋米台風受損的,但是他復耕了以後就種,如果再遇到颱風的話,這個是可以再救助的。那果樹類的話在同一個產期,以現在的規定的話是不能重複的。那這個部分我想我們後續也會再做一些精進的討論,因為以現在的規定是不能重複的部分。"},{"start":22511.369,"end":22537.591,"text":"部長,不過就是因為農民也很辛苦,氣氛好不容易已經重新整理過這個園子一次,這間就這樣落下,也是全部都開落下,可不可以再放寬?不,我想我們一定是會從農民的角度來協助他,但是相關的規定在那邊的時候,我們不能預約這個規定,所以我說後續我們會去檢討,特別是多年生的果樹之類的話,"},{"start":22539.732,"end":22552.138,"text":"從原來的那個跨年度有沒有變成同一個產區然後看看有沒有什麼樣的階段是可以做切割的我們會來精進做這樣的一個作為但是並沒有辦法適應在這一次的一個天災"},{"start":22553.591,"end":22573.128,"text":"部長就像您那天在現場也看到像蓮霧這些果樹會有一個延遲性的災害問題現在看起來好歹好歹可能過幾個月就沒有辦法去修正所以我們這一次蓮霧的部分就是它是免限刊的只要它提出蓮霧的種植的證明它就可以得到天然災害救助"},{"start":22574.38,"end":22587.152,"text":"部長另外那我這邊也要求我們的水保署針對我們治山繁紅的部分還有我們農水署針對這個灌溉溝渠的部分也要強化尤其我們秉農館非常需要這些的一些基礎設施是不是兩個訴訟可以這樣答應我想我們其實在討論這個"},{"start":22591.196,"end":22592.057,"text":"我想最後時間針對我們上一次本席"},{"start":22618.117,"end":22643.796,"text":"執行我們黑鮪魚這個政策的部分我覺得漁業署是呼籠部長也呼籠我們的漁民也沒有一個正面的一個答覆給我們知道到底要怎麼做處理那請會後幾個書面我們已經跟漁民討論而且公告已經在執行了這個會後再提供資料給你明年的配合部分也給本席一份資料好不好好我會提供資料給那個委員好謝謝徐副委員精準有效的質詢來部長請回座"},{"start":22652.237,"end":22666.049,"text":"賴玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席有請農業部的部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":22675.729,"end":22701.272,"text":"部長好 要請教部長一下台灣開放東南亞移工來台灣改善就是來台灣工作為了改善原生家庭現在目前就是有70幾萬移工已經投入台灣的勞動市場但由於工資普遍就是基本薪沒有額外加班收入的話"},{"start":22702.273,"end":22702.473,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22718.8,"end":22719.22,"text":"請教一下部長,你知道這個問題嗎?"},{"start":22737.27,"end":22757.56,"text":"我跟委員說明就是由於我們國內的農業有一部分的缺工必須仰賴外籍移工來協助那相對的目前是合定的一萬兩千人那現在大概實際的已經有一萬一千多人了然後勞動部也因為我們的需求增加也增加了八千人達到兩萬人"},{"start":22759.742,"end":22779.8,"text":"先是農業的部分對我只處理農業的部分所以農業的部分我們可以合配的比例大概是2萬人那現在已經有1萬1千人那這1萬1千人一定會符合勞動基準法的相關的一個規定那在實際的過程中變成說他分配到其他的農場的時候那農場主有時候會體恤他"},{"start":22782.807,"end":22782.847,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":22801.01,"end":22815.146,"text":"知道說有多少人在做勞動力的這個部分還有多少我們的農民依賴我們這一群就是非法的移工我們的農委會這邊有沒有想說這8萬人他們是不是有這個機會有的方法"},{"start":22821.853,"end":22844.378,"text":"讓他們就是變成是合法的途徑因為很多農民請他們十幾年了他們沒有做非法其他的工作但是他們就是不合法的在我們的農業裡面的工作這樣子的話有沒有什麼措施來去考量說讓他們是可以合法化"},{"start":22845.177,"end":22872.627,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,您剛剛講的8萬多人是整體的外籍的移工齁施連移工,沒有包含農業施連的移工,然後跑到農業領域去從事農業的一個工作嘛這個我們也的確有發現到有這樣的一個現象但是我們並沒有實際的一個統計數據說有,因為當你去訪視的時候有正常引進的你可以調查得到"},{"start":22872.927,"end":22872.987,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22903.527,"end":22930.621,"text":"臺灣的農產業的保障但是對我們要來做農業的移工是沒有很大的保障所以我們希望就是雙方面的讓我們兩邊都有有幫助我們希望說我們的農委會這邊不管是合法的非法的看要有什麼措施對他們有幫助也對我們的農民有幫助"},{"start":22932.157,"end":22932.397,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":22960.977,"end":22962.418,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":22990.469,"end":23010.023,"text":"謝謝部長 部長我知道這幾年 其實農業部是有依據生態生物多樣性的大會來通過的2030年的23項目標來去做一些相關的策略和行動那我也看到永續發展委員會其實在接觸了第三項設置要點其實就有講到生態多樣性的一些保育還有健康風險等等等等"},{"start":23012.044,"end":23027.716,"text":"其實大家講的一個重點就是要follow這個昆明蒙特羅生物多樣性的框架那其中呢他其實裡面有講到一個很重要跟減少對生物多樣性的威脅就是要來受邪物種的管理行動也即外來種的管理"},{"start":23029.209,"end":23056.671,"text":"那我想要了解就是說在我們現在其實的數據我們其實有發現我們在講要保護生態多樣性要保護我們的野生動物可是根據林業署的資料我們的好像我的頭很暗好謝謝對不起我這邊也看不到好那可以可以嗎現在可以嗎我這邊看不到那我們時間可以先暫停一下嗎看不到"},{"start":23059.443,"end":23085.786,"text":"是不是機器的問題 請這個工作人員排除一下電腦那邊也檢查一下是接觸不良還是"},{"start":23092.321,"end":23111.168,"text":"可能電腦需要休息一下可以嗎再看一下"},{"start":23144.705,"end":23165.814,"text":"這一個畫面還是流浪犬的這是上一個委員質詢的嗎這是我的這是我的對部長那邊看得到嗎還是我這個先建議好了可以嗎那個還是"},{"start":23171.045,"end":23171.465,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23197.529,"end":23197.709,"text":"主席"},{"start":23225.576,"end":23228.019,"text":"陳副長你看這邊先看這邊螢幕好了齁這邊有幾個好了嗎好我們訓導訓導繼續"},{"start":23235.37,"end":23251.059,"text":"就是我們講生態多樣性的一個重要性但是我們可以看到被犬貓攻擊的一個數造成野生動物死亡的數字也是持續的在增加那同時我也發現就是在審計部的一個112年總決算報告裡面有提到說109年到112年即4年花費了3.5億來辦理這個遊蕩犬管理經濟措施計畫但看到這個數字"},{"start":23259.304,"end":23274.777,"text":"我們數字其實一直在增加完全沒有減少所以我想要知道為什麼我們花了那麼多錢要保護野生動物可是我們遊蕩權卻沒有減少這原因是什麼我跟委員說明齁現在我們得到的資訊大概就成林你這邊講的齁大概現在目前的流量大概16萬隻左右"},{"start":23275.737,"end":23301.228,"text":"對它看起來是有在增加可是我們如果從另外一個角度講如果說我們沒有一個作為的話以流浪犬它自然的繁殖的那個繁殖率對所以我想知道我們一定有才什麼作為嗎不然你花3.5億花滿錢才會有一些就是說所以我們現在齁我們現在針對流浪犬的部分齁遊蕩犬的部分齁我們大概是用熱區的概念以每一個鄉鎮為一個熱區然後我們投入了一些經費去盤查裡面的熱區的"},{"start":23304.549,"end":23305.83,"text":"這個樂趣的計畫是從什麼時候開始的?應該是110年開始"},{"start":23318.766,"end":23336.26,"text":"一百一十年開始那一個重要的是流浪犬會越來越多其實一個非常重要就是飼主的責任所以我們在所謂的動物保護法裡面我們會去強化飼主的責任我們希望說不要去餵食不要去餵食嗎好我想這非常重要就是隨意餵食因為根據很多的數據其實我發現"},{"start":23338.802,"end":23365.399,"text":"有4成的犬隻是放養的喔4組把牠餵完之後把牠放養在街上甚至我們在新聞報導或是網路上面我們可以看到這150次的分享其實我們對於這樣子的行為其實就是餵食嘛大家可以看見它其實就是在一個類似鄉村農村的地方那甚至在我們左邊這張圖它是在生態熱區也是食物的熱區可是它也設置了一個流浪犬貓的餵食據點"},{"start":23366.98,"end":23388.22,"text":"那這個部分的話,你剛剛有講到餵食,所以我們現在會採取相關的行動嗎?我們會有更積極的行動來禁止餵食嗎?我想,我剛才說的就是說,我們會以鄉鎮為單位的這些熱區開始去執行,然後針對熱區的部分,我們會去限制它的一個餵食,然後加強一個取締。禁止餵食還是限制餵食?這限制餵食到底是什麼意思啊?"},{"start":23388.806,"end":23405.455,"text":"我們基本上我們到目前為止沒有一個法院說是強制性的禁止餵食啊那是我們要來修法嗎我們在修法的過程中因為餵食這個東西可能要再經過更多的社會溝通因為有一些動保團體本身他覺得說"},{"start":23408.078,"end":23422.217,"text":"但是我想回到生態多樣性這個最主要的目標我覺得我們對於生態樂區要有一些相關的更積極的作為我們是不是可以從生態樂區開始來禁止相關的餵食或取締呢?"},{"start":23423.098,"end":23424.118,"text":"對,我們會來調查,我們大概兩年調查一次"},{"start":23451.265,"end":23474.245,"text":"這個抱歉我再做一句話而已齁我剛也等了蠻久等機器就是說我想就是在11月10號因為我覺得對於每一個寵物其實當然都非常的重要他都應該要適得其所有他的家那11月10號其實有一個相關的為野生動物而走的一個活動也有相關的展覽那到時候是不是方便邀請部長跟我一起來參與呢我講如果說時間區一個人的話我也願意來參與這樣的一個活動"},{"start":23476.587,"end":23477.047,"text":"主席有請部長農業部陳部長"},{"start":23505.936,"end":23521.014,"text":"委員吼,部長吼,你最近有看到我們的蔡前總統去拜訪賴總統,然後跟賴總統一起收養的流浪犬斑斑互動嗎?有看到他們互動的新聞嗎?"},{"start":23522.042,"end":23551.278,"text":"我有看到那個FB上面有看到他們的一個很簡單的問題是跟剛剛我們前面站來的委員講的一樣是遊蕩犬的問題那我看到農業部的報告說農業部正在建立系統性與科學化的遊蕩犬管理經濟措施來控制犬貓族群那我想請問部長2015到2022年遊蕩犬的數量是大概增加多少"},{"start":23552.54,"end":23579.855,"text":"油蕩犬的數量我知道目前大概是16萬隻然後114萬多隻這樣子2015年是12.842022年是15.97萬所以7年漲了增加了1.24倍其實幅度算是相當的大對不對那我想請問這算是系統化跟科學化管理精進的結果嗎的良好結果嗎"},{"start":23581.487,"end":23609.077,"text":"我跟委員說明就是當初在瞬間的那個成長的過程剛好我們是有個政策是就是立法院決議的就是零撲殺所以在零撲殺的過程中瞬間它會去爆量所以後續的話它的增長的幅度就是包括我們為了零撲殺的一些強制新的作為下去的時候它後面的增長的幅度就會比較慢這個我想可以跟委員說當然啦我覺得原因找出來很重要但解決是更重要對不對"},{"start":23610.177,"end":23624.244,"text":"那我想問一下部長,依照你們的所謂的系統性跟科學化的管理經濟措施,因為我們馬上兩年做一次的調查嘛,下一次就是今年嘛,你有把握今年2024年遊蕩權數量比2022年少嗎?"},{"start":23629.86,"end":23651.954,"text":"我不敢確認說它一定會減少但是它如果要增長增長的幅度也會比前一年前一期的增長幅度變少因為流蕩犬如果說你沒有處理沒有絕育的時候它的繁殖倍率繁殖倍率大概兩倍到三倍左右所以希望部長跟農業部一起努力但是我要特別講為什麼今天不管剛剛前面我們張委員我們都在談這個問題你知道"},{"start":23655.456,"end":23672.225,"text":"遊蕩犬數量增加不管是對用路人還是野生動物都造成很多的危險剛剛前面有談到野生動物那我特別講那你知道2017年到2023年因為撞動物而受傷的人數是從多少到多少你知道嗎"},{"start":23673.786,"end":23691.397,"text":"我大概了解就是說受到犬攻擊大概我講的是那個行車的時候入殺是14%整個死亡的比例然後我講的是就是有人撞到就入殺的部分大概是14%"},{"start":23692.978,"end":23709.896,"text":"我是講的是人我講的不是動物啦我講的是人啊那從1888人增加到2948人漲幅是1.56倍那同期死亡的人數也從4人增加到11人成長2.75倍你覺得這個數字有沒有很驚人啊"},{"start":23710.799,"end":23731.201,"text":"我聽起來我覺得那個比例我們應該要更重視對啊所以我就講今天不管是這個那個遊蕩犬的問題或是那個遊蕩的一些動物的問題他已經不只是我們今天單單講說動物剛剛前面講野生動物受到了那個一些影響事實上連我們的用路安全都受到影響啊所以此"},{"start":23731.561,"end":23731.581,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":23757.276,"end":23780.767,"text":"下一位質詢 請 廖瑋祥 廖瑋祥 廖瑋祥不在 高金素美 高金素美 高金素美不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳不在 下一位質詢 請武力華委員謝謝主席 有請部長 請農業部陳部長"},{"start":23789.842,"end":23814.595,"text":"部長好今天來這裡想要跟您關心一下高山的農業首先請看一張圖片這張圖片是1953年也就是國民政府遷台初期的時候的一個南部山區的部落我們可以看得到他在旁邊的一個土地能工使用的一個情形"},{"start":23815.935,"end":23834.17,"text":"再往更早看的話一百多年前這是日治時期的照片一樣是南部山區可以看到他的家屋還有附近的這些土地的一個農耕利用方式那彩色的這個圖片呢其實就是菲律賓很有名的一個世界遺產伊富高"},{"start":23836.092,"end":23839.235,"text":"那這個伊富高其實我們雖然很羨慕他但是他也經歷過跟我們目前一樣的處境只是因為當時他們為了一個反水庫的運動那因此菲律賓政府在那個地方把他們劃了"},{"start":23852.369,"end":23866.588,"text":"自治區也就是說他們可以用自己的方式來經營他們的土地所以讓我們有機會今天看到這樣的樣貌那怎麼說因為我們自己現在也正在經歷這樣的一個過程"},{"start":23868.59,"end":23891.04,"text":"我們過去一百多年前幾十年前原本原住民長期以來所保留的一個傳統能耕方式到了國民政府來之後因為那時候的土地還沒有什麼法規您可以看得到當時的蔣總統在我們的中部的地區種起了柑橘高麗菜或者是像是這些茶葉"},{"start":23892.36,"end":23911.692,"text":"我們可以看到這一些山林呢變成了這樣的一個所謂高經濟作物的殖民的農業不再是我們在地的土地所需要的植物那我們來看一下我們覺得很欣喜的就是例如在中部這個是鎮西堡的部落"},{"start":23912.432,"end":23919.881,"text":"他們有一些人啊他們很努力的在這個樹林竹林之間繼續的來沿用過去傳統的混林的農耕法開出一些梯田然後呢旁邊都還有樹木"},{"start":23927.409,"end":23927.689,"text":"沙啃 燒啃"},{"start":23946.974,"end":23953.3,"text":"他們怎麼做呢就是設立一些防火線然後呢留下一些樹因為為了要讓老鷹等動物棲息可以幫忙吃老鼠這些害蟲然後呢是先除草再來呢進行放火因為這些灰燼是很重要的養分那我們看到這些方式齁我就是覺得說欸國外學者說這個叫傳統農業啊"},{"start":23972.657,"end":23993.815,"text":"什麼叫傳統農業在地的知識透過幾千年的觀察實驗錯誤中適應最終獲得資源管理的一個最好的方法那外國學者都說可以防極端氣候可以生態保護生物多樣性永續發展增加碳匯蟲害防治部長您覺得好不好"},{"start":23995.163,"end":24019.586,"text":"我要跟委員說明兩件事情第一件事情就是其實過往我們在剝地農業或高山農業我個人覺得說一個很不好的現象就是我們用平地的栽培技術直接導入到高山地區包括高度的農藥高度的肥料的使用但是相對的我們這幾年來特別是我在這兩三年來我一直因為我對原住民的"},{"start":24020.266,"end":24028.07,"text":"謝謝部長很感謝您做這樣肯定的一個回覆我相信在觀看的這些族人會很開心但是我還是要跟您談困境剛才您談到雖然我們已經開始輔導可是無法在自己的土地用自己的方式耕種是我們的痛"},{"start":24049.62,"end":24070.662,"text":"因為1976年是很可怕的一年因為有了非都土地使用管制規則一夕之間包括那些礦坑區域的房子原保地上的房子都非法了然後呢1976年三坡保育條例有了一夕之間所有的耕作方式都變非法了森林法"},{"start":24071.403,"end":24087.044,"text":"還有我們的水保法還有不得燒墾空污法不得使用機具等等甚至是我們後來推的零下經濟好像也不符合我們想要的那些項目雖然我們很努力我想要說的是說部長"},{"start":24087.825,"end":24104.453,"text":"我現在因為時間有限我只希望您因為國土計劃法的第23條有開出一個空間要尊重原住民族的土地使用管制規則可以自己定我希望到時候農業部可以支持"},{"start":24105.313,"end":24108.895,"text":"我希望到時候大家各部會一同的來支持那部長可以嗎?"},{"start":24127.483,"end":24142.598,"text":"我想我一定會從我的角度去 從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分 我想我們會去盤點"},{"start":24143.379,"end":24165.315,"text":"那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬"},{"start":24166.155,"end":24187.906,"text":"所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民有機會好好的運用我們的傳統知識來做我們的耕地我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式好不好部長我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們的所謂的獎益照領的方式6年60萬他其實比建法補償"},{"start":24188.706,"end":24191.849,"text":"吳立法委員 部長請回座下一位質詢請陳冠廷委員農業部陳部長"},{"start":24223.938,"end":24242.466,"text":"今天只有一題,這是針對嘉義山區土地使用的編定,特別是針對林班地的問題那現在,如果我們看一下那個圖片,大概是可以知道說這是我們嘉義石桌地區的土地使用編定的現況那大部分都是在國保1的範圍"},{"start":24243.106,"end":24270.927,"text":"那如果你看圖面的話那仔細看的話會是存在並種建築跟佔準待地相鄰的情況我們有這個圖片嗎我們沒有這個圖片沒關係那不管如何都是國保一的範圍一樣都是拿來做建築的使用但是佔準待地上面的建築使用還是要受到林業用地管制那林班地的成熟人的居住權利根本沒有辦法獲得有效的保障那對於山區的居民來說不管是地級上是林地或者是農地"},{"start":24272.108,"end":24288.52,"text":"防止在那邊但是管理的強度是完全不同三區國有林班定未解編的之前那是受於林業法令的限制所以居民大家都用暫准暫准待遇的方式來去進行使用但是這些地區已經有寄存聚落"},{"start":24289.381,"end":24312.71,"text":"也有這個產業事務實施但是政府還是用林班地的管理法令進行管制那我們是覺得這是很不合理的所以為了解決這項問題加一縣政府在擬定縣級的國土計劃的時候打算使用土地使用管制來去管理佔主帶地但是內政部國土計劃審議是把它擱置的那現在加一縣政府有另外一個方案這個部分想要請教部長"},{"start":24313.65,"end":24334.926,"text":"現政府是認為說已經沒有林業發展需求的林班地應該可以透過鄉村地區整體規劃直接解除林班地的管制例如如果說鄉村地區如果化設為農業發展地區第4類的居住使用就應該適同解除林班地之管制我想請問農業部對此有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":24336.007,"end":24344.186,"text":"基本上在那個部分大概都已經形成的聚落了齁其實我們農業部本身的立場就是說現與現在的地木的關係我們"},{"start":24345.888,"end":24366.839,"text":"我們的態度是如果說地方政府能夠經過通案檢討以後把它變成鄉村區以後然後把它化成非公用非公用的部分那後續的部分它就可以移給國產署以後就可以開始做變更的部分我覺得這是現在最快而且可以解決的一個途徑"},{"start":24368.018,"end":24395.007,"text":"然後如果說國土計畫實施以後那國土計畫如果在那個區域把它劃成那個城鄉發展區或者是應該是農事的部分那相對的也可以做一部分的解決啦但是現在其實就可以解決現在就是說如果地方政府把它劃成鄉村區的話把它變成一個我們變成非公用那非公用就移撥到國產組區的時候那就可以開始處理這個這個這個聚落的問題"},{"start":24396.761,"end":24423.723,"text":"所以簡單來說就是可以透過鄉村地區的整體規劃對相規的部分可以去處理相規可以去解決可以去處理但是地方站我要劃出來以後謝謝謝謝部長那我的問題到此結束謝謝非常謝謝我們這個陳冠廷委員非常有效率的質詢部長請回座習信不在林柱銀不在"},{"start":24426.247,"end":24429.949,"text":"登記發言委員．除不在場之外．區域均已發言完畢．我們詢答結束有委員．劉建國．索敵宿命之群．我們列入紀錄刊登空報"},{"start":24450.187,"end":24462.511,"text":"有關書面質詢．及未及答覆部分．請相關單位一周內以書面答覆．並複製本會．今天本日所列議程處理完畢．謝謝大家現在上會"},{"start":24493.055,"end":24493.095,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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Science活動今年結合各部會在全台124個場域共同辦理規模歷年最大並首度於科技大樓舉辦Kids Science強調科技的溫暖與親民提升兒童對科學的興趣"},{"start":2181.567,"end":2200.167,"text":"此外,積極進行國際科技佈局,強化跨國科技合作今年8月行政院組成半達體投資考察團訪問捷克國科會與科研創新部就雙邊未來的科研合作及人才培育等議題進行廣泛討論交流"},{"start":2203.03,"end":2217.528,"text":"另也前往德國與教育研究部建立雙邊科研合作機制到美國華盛頓與美國國家標準技術研究院國家科學基金會"},{"start":2219.59,"end":2245.791,"text":"討論AI等關鍵科技議題參與華裔科技社團年會分享台灣科技願景到史丹佛大學與著名學者及矽谷科技圈進行廣泛交流鞏固台美科技夥伴關係本會將持續與價值理念相同的國家共享科研發展經驗擴大交流以培育未來高階系統性人才"},{"start":2247.573,"end":2261.071,"text":"打造新創雨林生態系共創健康台灣國科會致力於科研成果轉譯並重視人文思維及包容精神鼓勵業界推出人民有感的產品與服務"},{"start":2262.458,"end":2290.846,"text":"期望改善或解決社會議題進而造福人民為強化學員成果鏈結產業應用全面鼓勵創新創業打造新創雨林生態系首先透過跨部會合作推動智慧雨林產業創生提供產業系統及設計服務平台算力場域和業師等資源聚焦於需求分析及自主AI系統"},{"start":2292.226,"end":2316.11,"text":"設計能力、協助中小企業導入AI科技以開發符合社會需求的產品與服務為落實總統健康台灣的願景國科會一方面提倡發展新技術、新應用及新商業模式的運動科技支持全民運動、強健體魄以增進國民健康"},{"start":2317.659,"end":2343.995,"text":"另一方面推動善用AI雲端等技術將問診服務由醫療院所延伸至家家戶戶搭配在宅醫療居家醫療等應用普及化減輕醫護人員的現場負擔共創醫病雙贏此外8月底落幕的生技產業策略委員會議聚焦智慧生醫健康等領域"},{"start":2344.815,"end":2358.984,"text":"也會全力發展自主關鍵系統與健康數據服務提升台灣健康產業的國際競爭力最後兼顧區域及生態發展落實均衡台灣科學園區在全台的核准進駐廠商已達1100餘家營業額約4兆元創造超過32萬個就業機會"},{"start":2366.634,"end":2391.505,"text":"長年的穩健產值及精進技術已成為全球高科技聚落發展的典範透過園區帶動全台各區域產業發展依據各地特色規劃各園區重點產業並全力推動各新設及擴建計畫如期如此完成在生態均衡方面優化園區休憩式設施及生態環境大力推動減碳措施導入綠色科技"},{"start":2392.165,"end":2403.064,"text":"提倡循環經濟公司協力邁向淨零轉型提供科技產業精緻多元節能減碳的優質環境以上報告懇請委員鼎力支持謝謝"},{"start":2407.716,"end":2418.605,"text":"謝謝吳主委的口頭報告那我們現在開始進行詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如有臨時提案也請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員業員之質詢結束之後"},{"start":2434.259,"end":2446.155,"text":"隨即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理那麼現在我們首先請發言登記第一位林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":2457.971,"end":2473.342,"text":"主席還有各位立院同仁還有我們這個國科會相關單位的這個夥伴們大家早安大家好那現在開始我的質詢時間那我就開始了好那我就先請主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":2477.441,"end":2494.18,"text":"主委好我們知道很高興今天聽到國科會在近期的這樣一個業務報告那我這邊延續幾個長期有被提醒跟我關心的一些議題那第一個部分我先提醒一下主委"},{"start":2495.201,"end":2516.374,"text":"國科會設立了一個初衷跟目的就是不計產出的現實利益而專注於學術研究那我相信您對這點應該我們都很有共識您也希望在比較少的一些干擾下能夠讓學術研究獨立那這樣對我們整體的科學發展和這個學術的一個量能應該是比較正面的所以我這邊"},{"start":2517.595,"end":2539.34,"text":"首先提一個長期一直有被反映的問題但是我不知道會內這邊怎麼樣看待這個問題所以今天我就討論一下在國科會對於學術研究的投入資源在學校的部分有一些分配不太均衡的現象"},{"start":2540.84,"end":2565.308,"text":"所以公私立學校的這個資源分配已經對不起請回到前一張一個重點就是分配不均那第二個是影響了學術研究的一個平衡發展所以請主委在我今天也幫會內做了一下功課我們就去年的一些數據來探討好不好好謝謝接下來這只是去年的數據這個國科會當年在核定"},{"start":2569.389,"end":2574.415,"text":"公立大學7256件私立大學2701件公立大學的受補助案件是私立大學的2.69倍"},{"start":2589.173,"end":2615.365,"text":"但是應該你們的這個公立大學跟私立大學的數據那公立大學應該你們不住差不多40幾所那私立大學有將近80所所以這個比例的這個我們在加權這樣子看似乎有很大的失衡所以這個區塊是不是請主委這邊來注意一下這個問題那如何解決它其實已經長久在學界裡面有被討論"},{"start":2616.866,"end":2619.728,"text":"在政策專案上公立大學有179件私立大學只有11件這也難怪連帶到的是教育部竟然現在讓私立大學再退場"},{"start":2645.49,"end":2645.63,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":2674.738,"end":2703.54,"text":"但是比較特殊的是在大學生的研究公立大學跟私立大學的這個失衡可能還沒有那麼高你看2000多件比1000多件所以這個會內是怎麼樣思考這樣一個補助的決策或者是你們在執行上到底是碰到了什麼問題這個可能待會要請主委很快的給我回應那另外吳大友講也是同樣的問題也就是公私立大學的失衡比例"},{"start":2705.047,"end":2722.875,"text":"導致大家認為在研究補助上的不公所以主委這件事情是不是先做個簡單的回應我非常佩服林委員的這個觀點我們的確我們在整體台灣的這個教育上面我們的資源投入是公立大學比私立大學還要多"},{"start":2724.035,"end":2749.323,"text":"那這個長期造成這個原因是因為我們對世紀大學從早期還有很多科技大學從這個職校到專科到技術學院到科技大學這個連串的這樣的這個過程改變了這個過程那原來是屬於教育型的這個大學的這個責任那這些教師長遠來講他們是投入在培育直接進入職場的這個"},{"start":2750.964,"end":2751.104,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2773.047,"end":2793.03,"text":"主任在提升那主任提升不好意思這邊我可能就要打斷喔那個主委這邊會內補助基礎研究我其實後面還有一個數據但是我現在也沒時間先秀給你我們相較於而且是會內自己的資料我們相較於新加坡美國這一些國家其實相對是少的"},{"start":2793.57,"end":2817.121,"text":"這就跟您的夢有關了我們的確逐步在提升希望能夠培養更多將來可以對社會產生重大貢獻的研究所以剛才一個議題第一個是公私立大學的失衡而且會內應該與時俱進你們說的研究型、教學型還有個型這20年來整個大學的教育產生了很大的變化我同意林委員所以為了補足那一點"},{"start":2822.563,"end":2850.395,"text":"我們現在除了在一些研究型的專案之外我們現在也對於能夠推動社會貢獻的一些專案也增加了不要忘記這個不計利益的一個研究的投入我知道就是在屬於剛剛提到的比較屬於私立大學科技特別是科技領域的我們希望他們貼近社會的這種研究我們會增加明年會增加謝謝林委員的這個提醒好謝謝所以我期待會裡面能夠來好好探討跟"},{"start":2851.235,"end":2878.115,"text":"解決公私立大學長期研究不公平的這樣一個現象接下來我還是談一下還是很感謝主委在0520就職之後我們來的拜會讓我反映了原住民研究相關的這個問題所以個別型的問題就在當場主委就答應了非常感謝您接受本席的建議所以在個別型的這個研究上今年"},{"start":2878.675,"end":2900.612,"text":"已經確定有了那當然很多利益良好的政策跟方向常常在執行上可能就會產生了一些誤差跟偏誤那主委因為各個階層下去可能在執行上其實本來您很阿沙利而且您覺得這個部分是重要的但是執行上後來又給原住民的某一些限制所以上一回"},{"start":2901.092,"end":2901.732,"text":"主委,我想您可以去了解一下這個內容狀況"},{"start":2921.7,"end":2936.108,"text":"我相信您當場：當時我的建議您就promise應該是我們彼此在學界認為這件事情很簡單而且應該是可以做的這個不必要限制我們會把它拿掉原住民有一個自由發展的空間"},{"start":2938.916,"end":2963.109,"text":"當然也聯繫到因為現在原住民的研究都在人文社會類那其實在中研院其實有研究過原住民的生命長度基本上是比一般平均在台灣社會是來的低的所以有沒有可能在原住民的研究裡面你們可以在各個不同領域去做個思考"},{"start":2964.029,"end":2982.563,"text":"其他領域當然像生命科學、自然科學等等。像什麼呢?來我給你看一個大佬的研究。這個大佬裡面其實有一個區塊應該是海馬回。海馬回就有一個族群的記憶。某種程度或許在其他的領域可以鼓勵這樣子的一個研究。"},{"start":2983.924,"end":2984.084,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3005.367,"end":3005.507,"text":"主席"},{"start":3031.601,"end":3033.202,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請吳主委請吳主委 謝謝"},{"start":3063.045,"end":3086.184,"text":"主委早,國科會在4月14日的時候我們宣布了這個精創計畫那這個第一座的IC海外IC的這個設計訓練的基地在布拉格那主委很清楚知道因為本席是這個中華民國跟捷克國會領域會的會長那我也到這個捷克非常多次所以呢我知道了我們9月份原本這個訓練基地要正式開始營運"},{"start":3087.145,"end":3113,"text":"所以在7月份的時候我也跟江啟臣副院長以及很多位我們委員一起呢我們到了布拉格去看這個實地考察到底這個海外訓練基地的狀況那我想後來我們看到其實捷克除了現在我們國科會有這個海外基地之外外交部也有一個台階韌性計畫這個您一定知道那這也有一樣兵預算也是在捷克那設立的也是先進晶片設計研究中心"},{"start":3114.341,"end":3140.669,"text":"據我了解這個計劃也是要培育晶片相關的人才我想我們一直在質疑這個跌床架物的問題您能不能簡單的來敘述一下兩者的差別非常感謝萬委員支持這個計劃我們外交部所啟動的這個台捷韌性計劃在捷克的Bernal那邊的這個我們叫ACDRC就是剛剛提到的IC設計研究中心您只要告訴我兩者的差別"},{"start":3142.112,"end":3164.267,"text":"這個IC設計研究中心是以學研合作為主就是學術研究的合作為主那我們的經費資源他們跟我們的教授一起做研究那在布拉格那個中心本來是以人才培育為主也就是說協助他們去教育學生能夠做IC設計是以教學為主的"},{"start":3164.887,"end":3172.032,"text":"謝謝主委但是我了解到大概在8月底的時候您跟國安會的吳釗燮秘書長一行人也有過去布拉格我相信不管是我們的海外訓練基地或者是我們的相關計畫你們都有去看現在的問題是本來本席在7月份去看的原因是因為9月份我們要開始正式營運所以我們必須去了解一下可是現在看起來9月份的營運是沒有"},{"start":3194.088,"end":3209.944,"text":"您又說是10月本身也很擔心10月真的有辦法繼續營運嗎因為據我們了解主委也有提到說現在因為整個捷克有一個新的政局的改變這個新的政局的改變對於我們現在在這邊不管外交部也好國會也好這兩個計畫也有影響"},{"start":3213.207,"end":3238.89,"text":"所以我們看到捷克在9月23日也舉行了地方的選舉以及三分之一的參議員的改選這一次是在野黨的不滿公民行動黨在捷克13州贏得了10個席次所以看起來他們的政局真的是有變化所以主委您有說我們現在要再來重新評估並且調整政策要溝通"},{"start":3240.151,"end":3260.298,"text":"不曉得你是要評估什麼?調整什麼?因為剛剛委員有提到就是捷克的他也是自由民主國家他有選舉那他我們8月底去的時候他正值要面對選舉的這個時刻所以他們的政府高層他因為是一個執政聯盟不同政黨政府的高層有在討論說"},{"start":3261.818,"end":3262.318,"text":"主委,我剛剛聽起來就是說"},{"start":3285.692,"end":3289.194,"text":"講來講去就是要整合那怎麼整合我們還不知道但是在布拉格那個沒有中斷我們還是會進行我沒有問你說有沒有中斷啦因為現在預算在邊人也在那裡硬體也在那裡你說你現在中斷也說不過去啦所以現在重點是整合的問題嘛但您剛剛的回答我聽起來就是要整合但還不知道怎麼整合那我想國科會"},{"start":3309.363,"end":3330.515,"text":"這個金創計畫原來是10年3000億的一個預算那當然就是您剛剛所說的我們希望在海外去培育或是吸引一些國際人才那當然最後的目標也是希望能夠來台為我們來服務嘛那所以這個培育跟吸引國際人才是相當重要的一環可是現在因為整個捷克的內部的政治的問題有一些延宕了"},{"start":3331.596,"end":3357.574,"text":"我想本席不免擔心啦我們投入了這麼大量的預算做了這麼多先前的準備工作這麼多人力跟心血進去喔那我們有沒有要嚴謹啦我們不要因為去誤判了情勢或者去踩雷了那導致後面在整合上面出現大問題那我們搞不好血本無歸我覺得這個是一個非常這個重要的問題在所以主任您一直在講說除了溝通之外我目前還沒有看到"},{"start":3359.356,"end":3380.678,"text":"實際有什麼樣可以因應的準備跟規劃那另外第二個問題就是說現在捷克內部目前的以他們現在政治狀態本席了解就是針對跟台灣合作的對象到底外交部國科會到底用哪一個模式到底是根據跟哪一個大學那甚至於我們這些單位要不要合併要不要整合目前都不知道而且"},{"start":3381.258,"end":3382.219,"text":"會不會由外交部的先進晶片研究中心來取代?"},{"start":3399.531,"end":3425.578,"text":"報告委員您講得非常正確我的想法跟您一樣也就是說如果我們以這個行政角度去看這樣的合作因為有選舉所以常常會有不同的意見會存在但是我會把它拉回來是在學術研究的合作學者之間就不會有這樣的問題產生所以接下來的這個重點會比較注重在於我會增加資源做學術研究的合作"},{"start":3426.818,"end":3448.904,"text":"聽您這樣講,您的意思是說我們這一個海外訓練基地是會有變化的喔?您的意思是這樣?我們希望把人力的訓練拉到台灣來就拉回來了,不在那裡培育不在那裡,但是同樣的這個合作的基地還是在那個捷克理工大學你捷克理工大學還在那裡,然後我們的基地也還在那裡那我們所有培育計畫拿回來台灣做"},{"start":3450.293,"end":3478.864,"text":"人才培育那我為什麼要浪費這麼多錢在那個地方呀不是那個地方我會轉為做學術研究的合作學術研究的合作培養的人才我這樣聽你講看起來應該是我們本來宣布9月要正式營運您說有可能是這個10月的IC設計海外訓練基地現在是申辯了對嗎沒有申辯就是說那個地方接牌要等到他們參議院選舉完就是"},{"start":3479.884,"end":3482.927,"text":"主委,我想我要提醒您因為我們都很關心他們現在的政局以及跟我們的合作尤其是這個海外訓練基地其實我們已經都準備好了"},{"start":3497.142,"end":3498.603,"text":"謝謝委員我就是因為這個原因所以我現在很審慎因為學術合作是不會因為政治而中斷的"},{"start":3517.462,"end":3543.252,"text":"所以我就會注重在這一點然後怎麼跟外交部這個地方做整合我希望我們一邊觀察他的政治局勢的時候我們自己要有計畫好那看起來我們第一個海外基地就有面臨到一些變化那現在我們除了布拉格之外過去我也聽您說可能還要再設立其他的地方那您今天在報告當中也有提到說我們也有去德國去美國進行科技AI的一些交流研究"},{"start":3543.972,"end":3567.218,"text":"我們有沒有可能在設置第二座海外科技基地然後可能會在什麼地方目前沒有打算我們的重點就是在這幾個國家我們都會加強學術研究的合作這個是台積電需要的也是我們國家發展非常重要的一個基礎花了錢花了預算花了心意我想後續主委一定要密切的掌握選定的評估好不好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝萬委員主委謝謝"},{"start":3582.082,"end":3584.405,"text":"接下來我們有請洪孟楷委員質詢我們有請吳主委"},{"start":3598.713,"end":3598.733,"text":"韓偉文議員"},{"start":3620.034,"end":3642.815,"text":"台灣的夏天恐怕會高達7個月而且會有兩極化什麼意思呢就像是我們上個禮拜遇到的颱風一樣就是說強台的頻率這是你們的結論強台的頻率會變高淹水的事件會增加尤其過去50年來才發生的極端降雨事件未來可能每10年就會發生一次是不是"},{"start":3643.656,"end":3658.978,"text":"是,如果我們不努力去減碳的話是,你已經看到而且你講到減碳嘛我先強調這個重點這跟本席的北海岸這兩天我們看到明明颱風已經過去了北海岸強降雨那反而里長"},{"start":3659.979,"end":3682.117,"text":"當地的齊老里長他說住在那邊有人講說40年來沒有看過這樣的一個強降雨有人講說50年60年沒看過那得到的結論就是確實這一次的強降雨是非常極端的一個氣候那也跟你的一個結論不謀而合而且你結論裡面甚至講到是說未來如果暖化的話海平面上升造成海岸的"},{"start":3683.398,"end":3706.929,"text":"議員面積增加雲林台南基隆新北會是最嚴重的幾個縣市好我們已經知道這個結論了但是我們要怎麼樣的預防我想這才是重點嘛對不對我們要瞭解這個狀況我們要怎麼樣去預防那其中有人就講是說在這一次的一個氣象署的一個氣象報告裡面其實給我們北海岸地區是沒有很精準的"},{"start":3707.549,"end":3707.769,"text":"主委 我想請教"},{"start":3730.1,"end":3757.363,"text":"面對這樣的一個狀況我們能夠怎麼樣來去做更好的因應或說更準確的告訴我們鄉親告訴我們台灣的民眾有可能有這樣的降雨要及早撤離要撤離及早因應要因應主委謝謝宏偉委員中央氣象署的這個預報跟我們現在災防中心的這個研究的投入其實也有相關那也包含我們太空中心在現在氣象衛星開始投入因應後甚至我們講說AI"},{"start":3758.604,"end":3787.317,"text":"超級電腦怎麼樣協助我們的算力更準確的推估降雨量封面颱風的路徑等等是吧是我們我們正在積極做這件事情那這一次的這個新北在東北角這邊強降雨的狀況其實我們那個時候有計算出來雖然還是有一點點誤差但是那個強降雨有計算出來我們國會會有計算出來但沒有告訴我們新北鄉親"},{"start":3791.246,"end":3805.755,"text":"我請我們在訪中心主任來回答一下我想中央應變中心開設的時候在前一天也就是10月3日大致上中央應變中心有發布所有的預警資料"},{"start":3806.896,"end":3825.937,"text":"在第13報及第14報所有的報告都有送到各個一級開設的地方政府當然也包括新北市當初10月3日早上9點半及10月3日下午3點所提出來的淹水都已經涵蓋了這些區域"},{"start":3826.437,"end":3846.488,"text":"但我現在講的是10月4日的強降雨啊是啊 所以說10月3日是預報預警第二天10月4日的事情啊來 主委 主委 很明顯的 氣象署也好或說災害面中心有講但是你沒有講到那麼精確就是說它的強降雨的狀況"},{"start":3847.569,"end":3874.115,"text":"他是一整個幾個小時內把一整天你們講的這個降雨量給降下來所以他會發聲說造成是十一十二點以前他還是風平浪靜尤其那一天是大家看縣市長也覺得是說那一天已經過了颱風過了大家也都覺得颱風消失了所以說並沒有停班停課但突然間下午時間短時間降下一整天的雨量而造成衝擊性的災情"},{"start":3874.415,"end":3899.001,"text":"報告委員其實災害應變中心在當天並沒有撤除還是延續所以我們我們災防中心的那個計算一直都在進行當中是我現在講的是說你的計算持續進行但是就是沒有那麼精確以及沒有強降雨的部分告知主委我認為說有告知啦但大家可能會比較忽視掉主委因為那是很特殊的狀況我說實在話我覺得是說這邊兩個部分啦"},{"start":3901.522,"end":3925.09,"text":"一個是你告知的狀況不夠精準或說沒有辦法那麼準確的告知到是說到底是什麼時間點有那麼大的一個降雨我們大家共同的面臨第二個部分是對於我們的這個計算的一個狀況能夠怎麼樣能夠更精確的去掌握因為在你剛剛的一個簡報裡面本席特別聽了11分鐘裡面你講了18次的AI"},{"start":3928.43,"end":3955.249,"text":"代表是說AI大家都很重視我們也很關心啊但重點是說AI怎麼樣實際的運用在我們每一個人的生活裡面並且真的看到問題解決問題非常同意我們會加強在AI的投入希望把未來這個預測預測的解析度把它提升主委在這個部分裡面氣象署這邊是不是能夠再做一個更緊密的一個會議討論來了解說未來可以怎麼樣協助到地方政府"},{"start":3955.749,"end":3963.179,"text":"讓地方政府能夠有更充裕的時間或說民眾有更充裕的時間來去了解相關的資訊是謝謝委員建議我們會朝這個方向進行"},{"start":3964.76,"end":3983.164,"text":"對那另外本席再請教您也是總統府國家氣候變遷對應委員會的其中委員議員嘛對不對那最近環境部也好或是說在這個聚焦的會議裡面有已經聚焦到說2032年台灣減碳的新目標要提升到40%這個您知道"},{"start":3989.076,"end":4014.3,"text":"知道 知道嘛 對啊上一次我們在一樣在這個委員會我請教你說2028年的時候台灣有多少的發電是用火力發電你笑笑不敢沒有不願意正面回應啊八成發電嘛八成發電量都是火力發電嘛但現在我們喊出一個新目標叫做2032年要減碳40%我可以先請教您知不知道之前國發會有訂出台灣的目標2025年減碳要減到多少"},{"start":4018.871,"end":4027.741,"text":"你清楚嗎?2025年要減碳10%那您知道之前的目標2030年要減碳百分之多少嗎?也不清楚那您剛還講說我開宗明義先請教您說氣候變遷科技現象你講到最重點是減碳"},{"start":4041.906,"end":4053.933,"text":"你講到最重點是減碳嘛你說這個極端氣候的成因或背後的原因是因為碳排高嘛那減碳的部分那我們台灣現在2025年減碳10%環境部長已經公開承認了明年絕對達不到10%會跳票那2030年說要減碳25%正負1你覺得有可能達到嗎"},{"start":4067.079,"end":4085.188,"text":"我只能說我們要努力做啦那如果沒有達到勒我當然相信大家都很努力做啊你今年光說要跨部會淨零科技多少預算今年有120億啦120億130億嘛對啊你每年跨部會預算120、30億的預算那你跟我們搶勢說定一個目標2025年已經跳票了2030年還有5年的時間25%"},{"start":4095.646,"end":4117.184,"text":"不知道答不答得到現在我要再畫一個新願景叫2032年百分之40我都不禁懷疑啊2032為什麼突然2025、2030五年每五年檢討一次我覺得很合理啊突然講一個2032是怎麼樣總統大選幫下一任的就是幫2028年要選連任的時候再鋪牌那2032年百分之40答得到嗎"},{"start":4123.467,"end":4143.316,"text":"如果現在2025年百分之10達不到2030年百分之25不知道那2032年的百分之40我們這不是菜市場喊價買菜在那邊喊你加一點我減一點而是實際的作為阿那2028年火力發電佔八成以上我們就講阿跟國際趨勢背道而馳"},{"start":4144.81,"end":4167.379,"text":"那你認為火力發電都全開了我們沒有減少能源政策不改變的情況下我們還有什麼樣的錦囊妙計可以把現在生活不變的情況錦囊妙計我們又持續增加又有AI高科技半導體持續增加有發電量持續的上升我們有什麼錦囊妙計可以達到你所謂的25%或40%"},{"start":4170.523,"end":4196.144,"text":"國會這邊我們投入這個近年節能的這個技術的研發我們會持續也會協助政府來推動這個智慧電網讓這個能源的使用更有效率所以主委你沒有辦法回答說到底有什麼錦囊妙計因為你講這些都是現在進行是正在做但還是一樣我們看到碳排越來越高我現在在想是說我都不知道說10月底有第二次的委員會"},{"start":4197.714,"end":4224.805,"text":"主委你也算是個科學人嘛所以我從科學角度好你從科學角度那你敢不敢講真話在第二次10月底賴清德總統要開的所謂的總統府國家氣候變稱對策委員會發言一下跟總統講說如果你現在能源政策不改變如果你現在跟國際趨勢背道而馳如果說我們還是一樣照現在的方式的話抱歉25%40%都是假的答不到"},{"start":4226.5,"end":4249.077,"text":"我們會承諾投入各種可能的綠能的技術的研發。看來您還是不敢面對。這不是我。好了,來,早位已經站起來了。最後30秒了。主委,總統也有講到一個新北123。賴金德總統之前說要推動淡海科學城本系列選區。"},{"start":4250.868,"end":4271.841,"text":"卓榮泰院長在6月29日來到淡水視察淡江大橋工程的時候也提到說要有淡海科學城並且國土署講說現在要把科學園區跟科技園區共同放在淡海新市鎮二期一區的開發還講說已經找了經濟部跟國科會邀地方共同規劃有沒有這件事"},{"start":4272.911,"end":4296.058,"text":"我們科學園區的規劃的部分的確有參與先期的參與經濟部跟國科會有沒有邀地方共同討論有沒有在左手進行有沒有想要達成賴清德總統跟卓文派院長的政見主政是內政部主政內政部因為國土署開發嘛但是現在主要沒有錯內政部邀你們嘛但是你們是一個很大的推力嘛"},{"start":4296.886,"end":4302.869,"text":"我們在那邊還沒有推理因為那個地方如果說那個地方是傳統產業為主我們必須要糾正您這句話因為賴金德總統和卓榮泰院長宣示的都是說淡海科學層並且希望能夠引進相關來講半導體或是比較高科技的部份"},{"start":4320.759,"end":4324.341,"text":"我會持續追因為這不僅是總統的承諾也是我們地方鄉親的期盼更是我之前2020年就提出來的政見所以也請我們國科會一定要重視"},{"start":4353.797,"end":4355.859,"text":"好,我們有請柯智恩委員質詢好,有請吳主委"},{"start":4367.574,"end":4391.244,"text":"主委你好主委你好主委你是來自學界你也帶過公務系統所以你看非常的清楚知道我們的科學應該跟我們的政治都是應該做一個區隔應該維持一個非常大的一個學術中立吧是國科會應該算是我們最後的一塊淨土了好我們來看一個研究計畫這邊有個研究計畫是叫做看一下114年叫智慧創新研究計畫你是10.45億"},{"start":4394.125,"end":4408.758,"text":"這下面有一個先進科技研究跟民主社會你大概編了5.96億這下面還有一個就是第3個本期今天要特別focus科技民主跟社會的研究中心計畫大概是4800萬沒錯吧主委你應該知道這個計畫"},{"start":4412.045,"end":4434.197,"text":"好我先告訴各位你112年的時候你編了4800113年編了4800來我們來看下面一個這是我們政大委託政大來質詢但是呢他又有一個諮詢委員會的決策各位你政大來執行有一個諮詢委員會來決策我們先看下面一個諮詢委員是哪些人主委"},{"start":4437.321,"end":4451.748,"text":"如果這告訴我這是賴清德的國政白皮書的成員可以民進黨的智庫可以這個每年要花我4800萬元的民脂民膏的諮詢團隊公約數是什麼看一下公約數是什麼7個諮詢委員當中有5個"},{"start":4461.345,"end":4476.437,"text":"都是來自綠營的相關的一個單位你包括你的研究的這些海外研究員導國千金的發起人吳宗燮的兒子陳維廷這邊政策研究員這是你每年花我4800元裡面的諮詢委員的團隊你知道這件事嗎所以在別人在飲和養綠的時候我們的國科會在乙科養綠嗎你要不要解釋一下"},{"start":4488.321,"end":4495.044,"text":"謝謝委員我實在解釋不出來我請同仁來解釋一下你為什麼解釋不出來主委我只是告訴你從剛剛開始這個是推動的計劃我剛問了一下像我們一般學者要來執行國科會計劃我們都要透過一般的非常公開審核的標準這個叫做推動計劃主委說的算你要匡多少錢你要給怎麼樣推動計劃你說的算"},{"start":4512.893,"end":4514.895,"text":"我認為要培養海外的人力沒有問題但是你的諮詢委員的整個背景滿滿的台灣價值然後我們再看他後面的部分裡面來怎麼做你所給的這個部分裡面你的人事費佔了2500多萬"},{"start":4528.869,"end":4528.889,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":4548.342,"end":4556.047,"text":"但是你的領選標準在什麼?你當然可以回應我是來自於計劃主持人來說的算我真的要問一下計劃主持人是用什麼樣來評選這些而且國科會以前有千里馬計算有你們什麼LIFT都有很多補充海外學子的部分"},{"start":4564.092,"end":4575.617,"text":"這些又涵蓋在這樣一個所謂科技民生的計畫然後呢我們的前主委也是下任之後馬上當上顧問然後這又是他任內隱若所合推的所謂的推動計畫主委說的算我先請問一下吳主委你現在有推動計畫嗎你框了多少錢"},{"start":4583.939,"end":4597.664,"text":"我自己沒有做這種你都不知道這個巧門是不是主委框了一下就可以這麼多錢下來我接任以後我的原則是國家科學所有的重大的計畫一定要按照"},{"start":4600.546,"end":4609.414,"text":"每年我們再來看一下嘛如果這些人雖然有背景但是很會做我也沒意見但是呢一年4800萬當中目前為止你上他的dest網站你的dest網站政策報告裡面的三篇其他都是專家評論我花了4800萬錢我要來這些東西然後我請你們給我這些訊息你們告訴我目前還在整理當中"},{"start":4622.546,"end":4630.631,"text":"一百一十二年四千多一百一十三年四千多我到現在一百一十四年我還要四千八百萬你給我這些這些中研院做不出來嗎臺大臺金教做不出來嗎"},{"start":4633.888,"end":4644.271,"text":"主委我今天為什麼會這麼生氣同樣來自學界我們有多少專任教師兩三千個人又要做研究又要做計畫還要SSC還要TTSC還要SCI還要IE什麼都要做結果呢完全擠不上你們這邊隨便一口一手一框然後有這麼多背景的"},{"start":4653.653,"end":4675.121,"text":"然後呢更有趣的是給我們國立政大我是政大畢業的好沒有問題四千多百八百多萬當中你給國立政治大學裡面還有框出一部分給我們這位大同大學大同大學的主要負責人就是我們吳政中主委的學生沒有問題學業能力都很好沒有問題但是他框出了2800萬當中呢"},{"start":4677.386,"end":4701.131,"text":"他是要做什麼?他要做一些相關的案件案件當中他要轉手給你們的國研院的科證中心來做處理這是如何?你把這個4800多萬的計畫當中你框出2000多大同大學大同大學再回首再把他一些相關的案件裡面有關徵件辦法跟政案的活動辦法又框回去給你們的科證中心"},{"start":4702.071,"end":4704.512,"text":"謝謝科學委員我會來仔細瞭解一下這個計畫你光是這個部分你就覺得是非常的荒謬好不好框出去又框回來你是在衝啥"},{"start":4733.912,"end":4744.52,"text":"我會了解一下謝謝委員我一定會改善這個做法以後不要再發你114年還要再繼續編4800萬嗎我在強調本席的一個原則資助海外學子沒有問題但是國科會已經有這麼多的計畫在給海外學子你把它夾帶在你這個4800萬當中然後他所做的每一件事情我要的資料報告告訴我還在整理所呈現出來就是我剛說的我答應科委員"},{"start":4761.254,"end":4763.047,"text":"這些不合理的事情我一定要改善"},{"start":4763.9,"end":4789.364,"text":"當然是要改善啊否則我還是一句話我相信這都不是你在任內的但是我剛給你條列出來的一定是非常多人看不下去的太多年輕的學者當他們積極再去做研究都沾不上你們關愛眼神的時候你卻是大把大把藏舵這些人可以做這些事但是呢你用那麼多那麼多都是有同樣背景的我覺得國科會撐不起這樣子大家對你們的批判啊"},{"start":4793.485,"end":4793.545,"text":"謝謝科學委員"},{"start":4818.427,"end":4823.335,"text":"報告科學委員這個架構我已經把它改掉了我們現在符合行政院通過的組織法"},{"start":4825,"end":4853.876,"text":"你就是不要提倡教育我相信你好問題是我還是要批判一下你這個雖然是把它改掉了你這個AI行動2.0你的預算你這樣看起來執行度不好意思你國科會現在是你知道你的執行進度只有27.73你跟其他部分比起來你們真的還是落後的主委你要不要督促一下不要告訴我這是第二期而已你們會在最後年終的時候趕上國科會應該帶頭做起你們跟其他部會比起來你們27是最低的這是你們的計劃"},{"start":4857.799,"end":4876.354,"text":"我們會改善你今天都告訴我你們會改善針對我剛剛所講的民脂民膏一年4800多萬他應該是完全需要接受我們國會的監督同樣的非常多裡面的你們國會有太多太多在做很多不同的補助"},{"start":4877.154,"end":4878.475,"text":"我會了解以後我會改善那一定會向科委員報告"},{"start":4895.03,"end":4895.05,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4917.628,"end":4939.995,"text":"謝謝科智恩委員我想主委這個是很誇張的事情而且我第一次聽到你這麼坦蕩蕩的回答我也不知道但是我覺得這非常非常的誇張那我希望會後特別針對剛才科智恩委員所提的這個案子你要盡速的把報告出來讓我們委員會每一個委員都能夠知道接下來我們有請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":4946.575,"end":4947.68,"text":"謝謝主席 有請主委"},{"start":4954.222,"end":4981.765,"text":"陳委員好好主委早安下一頁謝謝關於性平零容忍的部分我們看到國科會今天的業務報告裡面呢你們有修正一個要點喔非常感謝國科會做這個事情你們在111 112年的11月6號看到國科會相關的研究計畫要點裡面第26條你們新增了違反性平就會終止補助我覺得這個很好但是我要跟主委說你們其實還可以做得更多"},{"start":4982.245,"end":5006.076,"text":"行政院昨天有一個發文 行政院針對自己的行政院文化獎他們做出了修正 他們甚至說可以撤銷廢紙追回獎項的條件 那我們來看文化部文化部在去年的非常多性平事件之後 他們做了全面性的法規盤點 他們甚至要求可以終止追回撤銷補助獎項的部分 那我們來看一下"},{"start":5006.716,"end":5016.656,"text":"主委在國科會底下有非常多的獎項我們條列一下總統科學獎行政院傑出科技貢獻獎傑出研究獎吳大友先生紀念獎未來科技獎"},{"start":5017.782,"end":5046.619,"text":"我不是吳忠生有,主委我們來看一下去年有一個記者會談了性平案件而其中那個指控案件的當事人我們所指控的那位教授他就是得到國科會未來科技獎那這個事件還在調查當中但是我想要問國科會這邊可不可以積極的把相關的機制建立起來也就是說不要只有所謂的終止補助甚至可以追回獎項我覺得這個是非常重要的事情主委可不可以簡單回覆一下"},{"start":5047.099,"end":5059.313,"text":"好,非常感謝陳委員提醒我們有關這些獎項如果違反《性平法》的事實已經確定的話是不是要追回這個獎項我們會審慎來研議"},{"start":5062.236,"end":5083.387,"text":"我希望一個月內收到回覆報告好謝謝主委好來下一個我們來看一下園區的部分其實呢我們看到三個科學園區都有所謂在談永續這件事情非常感謝企業的社會責任不管是SDG ESG都有相關的手段跟目標可是我們來看一下目前園區所整理的工作事項有這麼多這麼多我就不一一念了"},{"start":5083.747,"end":5085.289,"text":"昨年政交所已經修正上市上櫃公司永續發展實務守則"},{"start":5105.091,"end":5133.374,"text":"跟企業說經由捐贈贊助投資採購策略合作的支持模式可以要求企業把相關資源益助在文化藝術活動甚至是文化創意產業納入維護社會公益的範疇另外在112年度第10屆公司治理評鑑指標裡面也把公司如果可以投入資源支持台灣國內的文化發展把相關的支持方法跟成果揭露還可以在公司治理評鑑得分"},{"start":5135.075,"end":5148.841,"text":"這是從商業的角度來看我們是不是可以直接跟國科會許願給國科會一些時間跟園區或是相關的廠商討論可不可以把相關文化的投資作為談永續跟ESG很重要的一環我非常同意陳委員的觀點"},{"start":5152.262,"end":5177.937,"text":"我想我們在各個園區管理局也許我們可以設立這樣的評鑑的機制把這個項目也把它加進來其實我們科技的產業所有的廠商現在也努力真的是在朝這個方向走其實因為我時間有限我就沒有辦法分享可是例如說以臺灣這幾年只要談到任何跟文化產業都非常喜歡學韓國我就跟主委報告韓國在影視音甚至是書籍出版"},{"start":5178.277,"end":5178.457,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝"},{"start":5200.798,"end":5225.386,"text":"感謝主委國科會非常積極的推動科普這件事情不管是Kids Science或是KidsScience的起跑活動甚至相關後續的活動我就不再贅述不過真的感謝國科會甚至我們來看一下如果一整個10月份來看中研院有Open House還有諾貝爾獎得獎公布還有國科會有創新技術博覽會如果我的想像是整個10月它都可以是台灣的小孩科技月那該有多好"},{"start":5225.986,"end":5243.343,"text":"這次Kids Science我真的要我們剛剛做不好的我們指正可是做得好的我們要鼓勵包含了故宮、農業部、高速網路中心、使錢館大家做的圖卡跟相關資訊真的有站在理解小孩的立場我要再次感謝國科會可是我覺得很可惜這麼好的活動我們來看宣傳的部分"},{"start":5244.484,"end":5271.667,"text":"國科會你們說你們的宣傳是有記者會、啟動典禮、海報跟公文還有社群媒體可是我們來看歷史悠久的open house他們為了宣傳相關的活動讓更多人參與他們做了非常非常多的事情可能也沒有花太多錢所以請主委不要誤會所以我想要拜託國科會我們既然做了這麼多好的活動我們在宣傳的部分可不可以更用力更大力讓更多人參與這個事情好謝謝陳委員提醒以後我們要注意就是宣傳"},{"start":5272.247,"end":5272.668,"text":"關於淹水的部分剛剛宏孟凱委員已經講了"},{"start":5288.689,"end":5313.982,"text":"那我來跟就等於我來跟侯孟凱委員分享也跟主委分享到底我們國科會還可以做些什麼國科會的災防中心呢我們來看一下先要感謝災防中心同仁在這一次颱風風災的努力發出了非常多的細胞廣播簡訊提醒大家那根據國科會給我們的資料裡面呢這一次颱風總共發出了728則簡訊其中最大量的是農業部的土石流警戒我覺得這非常重要"},{"start":5314.562,"end":5335.253,"text":"可是以剛剛侯孟愷委員也說了北海岸來說當天氣象署已經發布了5則大雷雨的訊息可是回過來看大雷雨之於淹水可能不是台灣人民所習慣的想像甚至可能來不及理解所以我們在想這一次淹水災防中心的通知樣態並不含淹水"},{"start":5336.894,"end":5365.034,"text":"那我跟主委報告我們自己做了解方請主委評估有沒有可行其實在水利署的網站上面我們來看一下左邊這一張他告訴我們哪裡有淹水這個是淹水警訊的部分甚至水利署他可以讓一般的人去註冊一個賬號然後登入你的手機登入你的地址如果你所住的地區有淹水的可能他會發簡訊通知你這個是水利署已經做好的事情那可是這一次災防中心跟國科會這個連結可不可以有機會把這個東西連結起來"},{"start":5366.815,"end":5384.389,"text":"可以我們會做好太好了那我就不用多說如果國科會主委這邊覺得是可以做那甚至是跟地方政府積極的合作因為如果我要登錄簡訊手機號碼才能夠被告知可是明明左半邊整體的淹水警訊已經有了那這個會不會很難做主委"},{"start":5385.285,"end":5399.776,"text":"不會,我們其實我們災防中心在一淹水地區那個評估可能會淹水都已經技術都發展出來了是是是,但是他跟災防中心整個細胞簡訊的連結是有可能做到的嗎?是有可能是好,所以也許一個月內我們就可以完成"},{"start":5401.038,"end":5424.18,"text":"我們讓後面的跟委員報告一下其實我們在10月3日那一天所發布的所有警報我們都有透過LINE的官方帳號我們LINE的官方帳號有167萬的定位人數但是因為我們的災防中心目前細胞警訊沒有含到這個淹水的部分細胞的部分就有水利署因為它是主責單位所以水利署會發出去我們並不是主責單位"},{"start":5424.701,"end":5439.358,"text":"可是他可不可以連結到你們那個災防中心共同發放的訊息裡面可以嘛對不對我當然知道水利署有在做所以我說我們自己有做的功課好不好那不要讓我們民眾一邊在防災的時候還要自己上網查說啊我自己是不是那邊水的地方"},{"start":5439.918,"end":5440.138,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5471.047,"end":5484.994,"text":"謝謝佩玉委員接下來我們有請張雅琳委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請吳主委有請吳主委張委員好"},{"start":5493.379,"end":5515.299,"text":"主委好,剛剛其實主委的報告裡面也是一直不停的提及AI啦那昨天剛好諾貝爾頒獎的時候這個也都頒給了兩位物理學家然後他們都是以人工智慧這件事情來得到這個獎項所以我想這個AI絕對是全世界的關鍵字所以今天所有的題目都會跟AI非常有關係喔"},{"start":5516.36,"end":5531.519,"text":"首先我想請教主委看一下這兩段文字我問了AI聯合國2758號決議對台灣參與世界組織的解釋為何我問了兩個機器人那你可以幫我看一下你覺得哪一個是GPT哪一個是台德嗎"},{"start":5545.649,"end":5572.062,"text":"看得出來嗎?你覺得哪一個比較是我們台德?台灣開發的台德?哪一個是CHECKGPT呢?我們再給15秒看一下好不好?報告委員我看不出來好像後面的幕僚是說右邊的是台德是嗎?"},{"start":5578.96,"end":5601.106,"text":"他們覺得是右邊右邊是台德答案正確那我想這邊有一個很大的問題就是說聯合國258號決議現在全世界很多國家都已經簽署了不涉及台灣參與世界組織可是我們台德的說明似乎跟世界是完全不一樣的"},{"start":5602.068,"end":5617.539,"text":"那我就很想知道我們是怎麼樣為這個資料我們多久更新一次可不可以說明一下誰可以說明一下這種大型元模型來做來做這種回復問題"},{"start":5619.997,"end":5645.445,"text":"的準確度其實現在都還沒有辦法保證但是我想左邊是比較符合現在世界在講的這個不管是IPAD決議或是荷蘭美國現在大家講的是比較符合的可能是就現有的文獻能夠搜尋到的但我想台德說所以我就很好奇因為這些文獻去年都已經開始在講我們台德今年才開始的為什麼會未出像這樣子的資料所以我想要知道我們為了資料到底怎麼為我們多久更新一次"},{"start":5646.325,"end":5662.015,"text":"我想張委員提的這個問題非常重要就是說我們的訓練資料如果不能夠與時俱進能夠把新的資料一直不斷地餵進來就好像我們人在學習一直要學習新的知識一樣那可能很快就會 那我想我們這個是要檢討對吧 這個我們要檢討我們會改進"},{"start":5664.957,"end":5684.925,"text":"好,因為這是我們自己台灣開發的,結果我們在這一題上面都回答得這麼不精確,這是一個很大的問題。但是我也同時問他另外一個問題,台灣的文化脈絡是傳承至中國嗎?因為我時間有限,我就直接講答案好了。左邊他是講台灣的脈絡部分傳承至中國,但並非單一來源,這個是CHECKGPT講的。"},{"start":5685.445,"end":5695.519,"text":"在右手邊呢他講得非常的完整喔就是我們受了哪些的國家或者是哪些的文化所影響的他講得非常完整"},{"start":5696.616,"end":5719.714,"text":"這是台德的所以我這個題目其實要講是台德有他優秀的地方也有他不足的地方是因為我們用我們自己的資料來訓練我們國內對這個資料比較完整所以這個就是變成是說我覺得我有他優秀的地方但是所以這個資料來源更新速度非常重要所以我也是希望說台德的負責人是不是之後來我辦公室來做個說明可不可以"},{"start":5721.256,"end":5745.437,"text":"我看到我們有一個重建台灣藝術史的資料是今年的計劃我自己會覺得就像我自己不停在講台灣其實在言論自由上面絕對是相對於我們華文世界裡面是非常有競爭力的因為我們可以保存更多不同文化更正確不偏頗的事實跟研究所以這是絕對我們要發展的那我也認為就是說"},{"start":5747.478,"end":5748.9,"text":"我們要如何發揮我們台德的一個影響層面我們的擴大計畫是什麼"},{"start":5764.09,"end":5786.3,"text":"好,我們人文處其實已經有對台灣史,包含藝術史還有跟文化部的合作有計劃在進行那我會請他們來評估把台德盡早把它帶進來包含在訓練資料的取得以及使用台德來協助這方面的研究謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":5786.36,"end":5809.538,"text":"我想知道它的應用層面啦,因為我們只有訓練,它沒有辦法應用,那就是一個問題嘛。所以我想要知道你們現在要把它做訓練,一定有相關的應用的規劃,是不是可以簡單說明一下呢?還是說,現在可以簡單說明一下嗎?好,那我請我們科技辦來回答。我想齁,這個在政府裡面的應用是我們第一個權利來推廣的。"},{"start":5810.25,"end":5810.87,"text":"我們會盡量來協助我們的學者使用台德"},{"start":5838.396,"end":5838.536,"text":"下一題就是說"},{"start":5867.25,"end":5881.877,"text":"大家可以看一下喔 左邊是Chief GPT我問他同樣一個問題 台灣是主權獨立的國家嗎 你看他回答的速度 非常的快速 好 那我想台德我就不播放了啦 因為等他寫完兩遍之後 台德一遍都還沒有寫完 這個速度上面落差非常大"},{"start":5884.448,"end":5903.564,"text":"因為我們現在算力還沒有提升所以我有看到我們的算力其實是目前我們是有一個目標我們要在2028年的時候排到前10名全球前10名所以我們是有精創計畫跟智慧科系大南方產業系其實都要增加到480的petaflops"},{"start":5905.846,"end":5912.436,"text":"我想問一下,就是說我們有掌握其他國家的一個未來的對於算力的建制規劃嗎?不然我們怎麼可以喊出前十?"},{"start":5913.837,"end":5936.387,"text":"依照我們的估計啦就是各國現在的進展我們當然也會評估但是依照我們的估計我們未來如果順利啦我們預算能夠通過我們逐步來建置我們的算力我想因為其實全世界不管是在很多國家私人的系統不然是微軟啦google啦Amazon啊Meta回答等等的其實都有一起來"},{"start":5937.287,"end":5937.627,"text":"委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5959.15,"end":5979.895,"text":"我希望能夠引進產業界的實力所以我們有好幾個廠商都有能力來建置所以我們現在已經在洽談中了對不對我們預計什麼時候會組成國家隊呢是明年嗎我們明年只要預算能夠順利的話因為政府的投入是很重要的一個因素能夠吸引廠商也投入這是我們要先有這個做法"},{"start":5981.902,"end":5982.022,"text":"陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":6007.848,"end":6011.692,"text":"謝主席請國科會吳主委有請吳主委陳委員好"},{"start":6016.173,"end":6045.522,"text":"早安各位長期都有關心關於科普教育的推動那從上一屆第10屆開始就一直敦促國科會這邊要擴大辦理關於科普列車那也很感謝我們國科會這邊存善如流也一直持續的在辦理但是我發現說科普列車辦理這麼多年實際上我們供學生體驗的時間他只有在上車的這段時間到下一個車站其實這個因為一站一站這樣子走"},{"start":6045.962,"end":6072.905,"text":"學生上來體驗完之後學生下車到下一批的學生上來所以他其實他體驗的時間很短暫只有大概30到40分鐘那這樣子的一個短暫的時間其實對科普教育的持續深化其實效果應該算是蠻有限的這邊想請教主委在學生他們體驗完科普列車之後我們國科會這邊有沒有預計如何繼續的持續來深化這些科普教育"},{"start":6073.939,"end":6101.044,"text":"我們其實有給參與這個科普教育的學者計劃那個計劃除了科普列車引起這些年輕中小學的學生的興趣之外那我們也希望說將來他們跟這個大學教授所帶領的這個科普的團隊能夠也連結起來在地方上因為所有的教授也遍佈在全國地方上連結以後他們就可以持續的在那個各大學在地方的場域"},{"start":6101.604,"end":6130.396,"text":"就不斷的可以有接觸那那個教育部其實也在持續在深耕科學教育的部分那主委的意思是說科普列車是一個起點那你們會讓後面的部分讓教師教授來接手嗎那其實這邊我要向國科會這邊來建議是不是我們也可以參考一下故宮的這個創客魔幻列車的這個方式他是結合跨領域的學科來連結故宮的文物而且是深入校園來推廣"},{"start":6131.556,"end":6132.957,"text":"國科會希望跟教育部合作繼續使用科普教案教材教具來供學校使用"},{"start":6148.211,"end":6163.148,"text":"就是在我們學生體驗完這個科普列車的這些活動體驗之後你們剩下的這些教材教具可以持續的提供給學校來使用而不是說我們到明年度換一個新的主題這些教材教具都沒有用了這樣子其實也是非常浪費"},{"start":6163.834,"end":6185.813,"text":"好謝謝陳委員這個建議很好我們來研議一下因為很多教材都是教授發展出來的看看怎麼樣由他們來推廣推廣這些教材我們也可以來協助這個部分也希望說主委你竟然已經承諾說你們會來思考說如何讓這些教材這些教具可以善加的利用還可以能夠普及到這些小朋友"},{"start":6185.973,"end":6186.213,"text":"接下來我要請教"},{"start":6214.079,"end":6216.981,"text":"我們國會會從2019年開始辦理第三期的國家太空科技發展長程計劃這個計劃本來是要到2028年就是從2019到2028年但目前是有意將計劃延長到2031年並且計劃裡面會新增V5G計劃還有那個同步軌道衛星計劃以及太空發展相關的計劃都會納入"},{"start":6236.418,"end":6254.937,"text":"預計要增加400億元但是國科會這邊有說要修正這個整個計畫納入之後要修正這個將近一年都沒有進展我想請問主委說目前你們這個整個計畫你們的修正的研議程度是進度到如何那你們什麼時候才會把計畫送到行政院來隔定"},{"start":6255.817,"end":6273.879,"text":"包括陳委員其實我們修正的方向已經大略確定了那我們在下個禮拜會有一個衛星通訊的這個SRB就是全國的產學研各界共同討論我們未來衛星通訊整個國家策略的發展"},{"start":6275,"end":6298.411,"text":"現在大概目標都已經完善了下禮拜的會議結束以後我們在太空計畫的修正在下次的董事會也會定案那朝向邁向我們原來是這個遙測衛星跟氣象衛星邁向真正通訊衛星的這個時代這是一個非常艱鉅的任務那因為要帶進很多新的技術"},{"start":6299.557,"end":6299.917,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6316.533,"end":6327.696,"text":"因為現在雖然目前我們的總預算還被在野黨他們推在程序委員會但是本期希望說國會這邊要很積極的來關於這個部分你們的修正你們的計畫跟你們的期程要符合你們本來的規定你們本來你們的規劃因為我們要增加的是高達400億的計畫讓整個的預算規模可能會超過650億所以這個計畫不能再拖好那剛才主委你也提到說關於這個低軌的通訊衛星非常的重要"},{"start":6344.321,"end":6362.073,"text":"雖然它比較困難但是它真的是非常的重要我們在第三期裡面增加的這個B5G的低軌衛星計畫呢也原本預計在2026年要發射但是因為疫情種種的因素呢那我們估計太空中心估計說要到2027年才能發射我想請教主委目前我們這個B5G的低軌衛星計畫進度怎麼樣在2027年能不能如期的發射"},{"start":6371.905,"end":6383.249,"text":"我們的確是因為疫情那幾年全世界發射廠等等都中斷了所以有延後我們在2027我們可以規劃2027可以發射是可如期的主委有這個信心"},{"start":6391.529,"end":6410.985,"text":"主委有信心在2027年可以如期發射現在有信心大家有B5G的低軌衛星是通訊衛星那國科會也在演繹是不是要爭取納入國家公共基礎建設那主委這個部分我們演繹得如何預計什麼時候可以完成評估"},{"start":6412.591,"end":6413.932,"text":"所以你們目前的評估是覺得說"},{"start":6426.991,"end":6431.395,"text":"在短短幾年內因為這個技術非常的困難那我們還要尋求國際合作目前已經在洽談當中本期這邊也要提醒國科會V5G低軌衛星計畫也是台灣第一個通訊的衛星發射計畫那也會奠定我們國內的這個低軌通訊衛星的這個基礎那也希望說就可以帶動到我們整個產業鏈的發展"},{"start":6455.794,"end":6473.462,"text":"但是呢通訊衛星存在有關的通訊資料這個國會這邊應該也要延將來辦理相關資通安全的計畫主委你覺得沒有錯我們下禮拜的會也把通訊衛星通訊的資安的項目也納進來那個非常重要項目謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":6474.537,"end":6502.222,"text":"接下來我要請教主委我們國科會這邊也在積極的推動所謂主權AI的這個政策那其實之前輝達執行長或是AMD的執行長相繼來台我們其實有傳出說輝達跟AMD有意在台設立研發中心那我們主委也很積極的赴美拜訪相關的產業龍頭請問主委現在有沒有好消息有好消息他們會按照計畫進行所以你現在還不能公佈有任何的進度"},{"start":6505.562,"end":6507.289,"text":"因為可能現在正在簽約的階段"},{"start":6510.765,"end":6536.351,"text":"我為什麼提到這個部分主權AI的這個部分我們所要發展的其實因為其實輝達執行長也一直提倡說主權AI這個部分希望我們台灣要自行建立自己的資料庫我們自己的算力及雲端服務系統都要提升那我們台灣目前的狀況就是說我們通訊軟體都是使用國外像大家現在使用非常普遍非常方便LINE我們的資料中心都一樣是國外這其實對國家的安全有一定的疑慮"},{"start":6537.071,"end":6547.853,"text":"所以希望說我們主權AI的這個部分我客會你們也要有一個長期的規劃而且要有一個制定的目標那現在是不是可以透露說你們目前對這個有什麼規劃"},{"start":6549.585,"end":6567.11,"text":"主權AI嗎有我們在114年我們已經啟動一些跨部會的這個合作包含我們要建立我們自自主的運算資料中心以及超級電腦然後發展我們自主的AI的系統能夠支持我們其他"},{"start":6567.79,"end":6570.031,"text":"所以國科會這邊已經有左手在規劃這個部分好了最後本席這邊要提醒國科會我們建立主權AI的前提是需要有一部完善的法規"},{"start":6591.738,"end":6608.348,"text":"包括AI使用的界限AI隱私權等等的規範所以AI基本法應該要儘速的提出我們要完備AI資通安全AI基本法就要趕快提出那這個會期主委你們能送到立法院嗎報告委員我們AI基本法預告結束預告結束後我們"},{"start":6611.47,"end":6612.311,"text":"我們接下來有請林怡錦委員質詢"},{"start":6644.083,"end":6644.768,"text":"謝主席 有請吳主委"},{"start":6650.322,"end":6674.419,"text":"林委員好主委好我想AI已經成為這個世代不可忽略的那個關鍵詞那榮太院長也有說過台灣應該進入主權AI的時代那讓台灣的人民可以感受到生活在智慧科技島那主權AI在這個詞彙的理解上本身認為AI在工具上要具有防御"},{"start":6676.8,"end":6703.456,"text":"主委認為主權AI要有什麼樣的條件可不可以簡單回答第一我們的訓練資料要用我們國內自主的資料不要參照對我們不利的這些資料第二我們的資料要留在國內訓練的資料跟應用的資料都要留在國內所以我們自己要建我們自己的資料中心我們的超級電腦第三我們要發展自己的應用系統"},{"start":6705.035,"end":6728.235,"text":"協助我們的百工百業可以用自己的系統而不要仰賴國外的服務商來提供這個應用服務所以這三點都要我想AI的應用其實不可或缺應該就是管制的問題我想我看了這個幾個部會下半年度的預算書我們搜尋關鍵字後發現"},{"start":6731.318,"end":6755.29,"text":"投入AI應用的其中的幾個部會我如這個圖所示的至少有12個以上那在這麼多部會都會投入人工智慧應用的計畫下所以競速有一部完整的AI基本法來框架規範AI的使用我想接下來的立法相當的關鍵那我們看到國科會其實已經結束"},{"start":6757.731,"end":6779.577,"text":"人工智慧基本法的預告那收集了不少意見可是其中有不少的民間團體都認為這部草案應該要有更多的各自上的人權保障那所以因為這樣子可以請求防止權力侵害的條文但是就我的理解這部基本法不是作用法"},{"start":6780.558,"end":6791.052,"text":"所以他沒有辦法實質對人民產生作用或讓人民具體可以有請求權關於這點主委是不是要借這個機會來說明一下對於民間團體這個疑慮要如何解決"},{"start":6794.914,"end":6821.357,"text":"謝謝委員的確我們這個基本法會兼顧人權的保障這個是確定的那當然在這個基本法裡面我們不會寫到那個細項也不會寫到法則那我們的做法就是讓這個基本法趕快能夠在立法院通過以後那讓各部位可以依據它來制定更明確的作用法這個作用法的部分我們一定會保護到剛剛委員提醒了所有的人權的部分都會保護到"},{"start":6821.837,"end":6821.897,"text":"好,最好"},{"start":6848.172,"end":6869.584,"text":"我想再繼續這個AI基本法的討論就是說這部基本法只有規範我國境內的AI使用者嗎但是我們知道科技的使用是無國界的所以我們舉凡外國的AI如果涉及台灣人民權利義務者他有辦法適用這部基本法的規範嗎那會不會阻礙產業的發展 主委"},{"start":6873.291,"end":6896.752,"text":"我們相信因為這個法律要保護我們的國民也要促進我們國內產業的發展所以這個基本法這個法律當然適用範圍我們國內一定適用的但是國際的廠商到台灣來執行這個業務的時候我們當然也要規範它所以將來我們各部會都會有相關的這個作用法會來進行這一部分的規範"},{"start":6897.392,"end":6922.146,"text":"那如果外國的AI的使用是不符合這部草案的原則那可能我們國科會草案的第三條的跟他的任何一點第三條的任何一點有抵觸的話那或許涉及侵權或涉及其他的法律責任的時候那請教主委這部基本法應該它的這個效力界線到底在哪裡?到了哪邊?"},{"start":6924.09,"end":6931.617,"text":"你懂我的意思嗎?這一部分如果他的業務有牽涉到我們國內的國民的話應該都會同樣要受到約束的都有法律責任應該都是要"},{"start":6940.285,"end":6940.465,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":6970.445,"end":6996.799,"text":"各部會然後什麼認養認領這個AI的這個作用法的這些相關的法令做一些書面報告給我好嗎好謝謝林委員我們採用的不會是歐盟的分級我們用分類是因為分類在不同的應用上它可以有彈性的讓在不侵犯人權的狀態之下可以鼓勵產業創新的發展但是在必要的時候分類也包含分級必要的時候有些應用非常的重要對"},{"start":6998.119,"end":7026.173,"text":"對人權是有相當的關聯度的話那他就會分級我們在作用法裡面就會把這個區分出來我想現在我想利用一點時間跟您討論運用科學的運用運動科學的運用我想在這個我們看到這個我們國科會的預算說明那我們知道說國科會在運科研究不只是針對運動員的需求去研發我們更要推動"},{"start":7026.693,"end":7026.933,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":7056.693,"end":7057.333,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7087.213,"end":7105.566,"text":"為什麼要這樣子說?就會來預防運動的傷害嗎?所以我想請教主委說我們這邊所提的運科科研成果產業化具體來說會是什麼樣的內容跟規劃?那我們要如何讓全民享受這個運動科研的果實?"},{"start":7106.546,"end":7106.726,"text":"報告委員："},{"start":7129.092,"end":7145.306,"text":"進到這個全民運動的領域那這樣子的話就可以讓我們的全民運動的這個風氣就提升整體的水準也可以提升這是我們的策略好那所以這個全民享受這個科研的果實那你們會慢慢來循序漸進來鋪排"},{"start":7147.248,"end":7170.424,"text":"是我們會協助科技產業因為現在看得到就是類似像說這些競技選手的這個訓練是是是那那怎麼引進民間怎麼讓他平民化產業化你們會有一套系統的做法有我們國科會在學術研究上面也也會把科技領域的教授跟運動領域的教授結合在一起好讓他們彼此互相可以把需求端跟供應端連結在一起然後把廠商也帶進來是因為我們那個產學處也有計畫來支持這個對"},{"start":7174.187,"end":7181.151,"text":"支持這個研究那就可以擴散到這個是很大的產值是是是謝謝委員的提醒好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝林益錦委員好接下來我們有請郭育群委員質詢謝謝主席主席早安有請主委好我們有請吳主委"},{"start":7203.598,"end":7228.894,"text":"各位早安我想這次這個山頭和颱風才剛剛過那記得我在上個會期的時候其實我有特別到了這個我們的這個防災中心去做一個考察那記得在今年的年中就是黃仁勳他有特別在這個他的演講上面有特別提到其實講到這個Earth2這個氣候數位的暖身這個雲端的一個平台"},{"start":7230.135,"end":7256.276,"text":"對於將來的防災或者是說在跟台灣的這個中央氣象署來合作的部分其實是有一些進程跟發展的那我們也知道其實從2018年到這個2021年我們其實有把這個中央氣象署其實有把這樣子的一個數據是提供給這個二次數那之前其實我曾經問過國科會就是目前我們運用的範圍有多大那再來就是我們的這部分的一個運用的一個進程又有多少"},{"start":7256.656,"end":7269.533,"text":"那將來是不是可以運用在更廣泛的一個這個產業界那這個部分我請這個主委我們已經開始在用了是是是那目前成效如何成效我請我們陳主任來報告一下好"},{"start":7270.975,"end":7272.776,"text":"那這一次在這個山頭颱風當中其實扮演了什麼樣的一個重要角色?"},{"start":7295.465,"end":7314.499,"text":"其實我們在尤其是10月3日我們提出了這些全國的預警大概有9個縣市71個鄉鎮我們全部提出來也就是利用這一套的這些算例把它做出來所以有很多的淹水地方包括北部地區我們在13日的早上在10月3日的早上9點半10月3日的下午3點鐘我們持續的發布全國所有的淹水地區的警戒了"},{"start":7324.667,"end":7344.275,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7345.13,"end":7367.198,"text":"將來運用在更多的一個產業上是是好那接下來我想要針對這個國科會有這個我想我們每年其實投入了很多的人力的部分就是在科研的人才的一個部分那這個我們可以看到不管是在培育或者延攬或者講述這些科技人才的一個預算其實都是相當可觀的"},{"start":7368.779,"end":7372.041,"text":"從2013年到2023年其實近10年有37家的大專院校跟研究的機構總共有178位博士級的研究人員已經連續接受了研覽的補助10到22次"},{"start":7385.891,"end":7411.425,"text":"那其中這178當中的123人他是從2013年補助到現在那我們知道其實這個計畫通常是講的是比較短程的齁那但是呢這些研究員其實拿了補助做了計畫但他後來這123人並沒有投入相關的產業也沒有在學界任職也沒有在研究機構轉正那"},{"start":7413.406,"end":7430.264,"text":"國科會這個部分對於這個人才的投入產業界還有他們最後其實還要繼續會不會就是一直這樣子短期的這個補助下去但他沒有真正的進入到產業界這對我們來講其實是不是人才的培育方面應該要有更嚴厲的一個"},{"start":7433.486,"end":7456.459,"text":"謝謝郭委員的提醒這個現象有部分的原因是因為部分的那種領域培養的博士生過剩了過剩找不到適當的工作所以他就留在學校當作博士或研究人員那部分還有一些是有問題就是學校沒有積極來協助這些博士或研究人員來發展他們的生涯"},{"start":7457.419,"end":7478.315,"text":"我們現在也在上個會期委員提醒以後我們也做了一些辦法的修訂希望將來在申請國會補助的所有這些用人的單位我們希望他們也要協助這些博士或研究人員能夠適度的發展他的生涯不要只是當做一般的行政工作或者是學生"},{"start":7479.496,"end":7506.841,"text":"只是向學生來協助研究工作這樣子而已希望能夠輔導他們協助他們找到適當的這個正式的這個職業的發展那不是將來喔我覺得這個部分是不是從現在開始現在我們已經改了辦法已經修改了所以從下年度的這個申請案我們已經會按照新的這個規範來執行因為他們做了這麼多的研究有的甚至已經是補助了10次以上最多還有到22次的"},{"start":7508.161,"end":7511.683,"text":"另外我想提到的就是我們的國科會就是在這個新創團隊留在台灣發展的部分這個部分成效"},{"start":7533.173,"end":7549.11,"text":"我想要來請教一下下那從這個2018年其實我們創立了這個台灣科技新創基地TTA那積極引進了這個國外有很多的這個投資型而且這個包含一些所謂的頂尖加速器的一個進駐"},{"start":7550.311,"end":7561.559,"text":"那到了2023年累積總共培育了84949家的新創團隊希望能夠提升相對的提升跟台灣的合作提升這個台灣的新創產業在國際的市場當中的一個成長但是"},{"start":7565.481,"end":7587.1,"text":"我們收到的資料只有國外的部分我們看到最後呢從原本的396再加上能夠留在台灣成立新創公司的只剩下91間最後其實它的比例是23%左右只剩下然後另外還有十幾家是沒有的那這是國外的資料"},{"start":7587.82,"end":7608.187,"text":"為什麼國內我們反而掌握不到從107年到108年到112年全部掌握不到這個部分這個數字是不是可以來好好解釋一下我請處長來報告一下是是是謝謝委員這個數字是審計部跟我們所取的資料那其實國內團隊幾乎都有成立公司所以才453家都有"},{"start":7608.567,"end":7630.938,"text":"當時他是focus在國外的團隊部分留台比例有多少那因為國外團隊有些來他沒有在台灣設立公司但是也受我們TTA的輔導所以在依照審計部給我們的這個定義當中我們是沒有把它納入計算所以國內的反而我們沒有計算國外的有計算國內的其實都是公司的他有成立公司喔他是原本就是公司就是國內都沒有問題啊所以審計部沒有要這個資料對"},{"start":7632.259,"end":7661.154,"text":"但是國內其實登記廢紙的公司也有高達35家所以這個部分到底我們這個就是留台新創或者是在國內的這個新創的發展率成效到底算好還是不好啊報告委員其實新創本身就是一個高風險的一個團隊啦所以本來他因為我們每年幾乎我們看過那個數字其實每年的預算將近都是7億每一年幾乎對因為我們有各式各樣的"},{"start":7661.494,"end":7662.734,"text":"科技新創團隊存活率相對是比較高的"},{"start":7687.603,"end":7717.063,"text":"好,那我們希望有一個比較正確的數字不要說國外有,我們國內自己掌握不到那這個部分其實我們就沒辦法繼續發了好,我們再把資料補給委員是,好,那最後一點點時間我想這個科技有這個重症其實南北我們都要均衡我們人才的培育其實真的目前看到還有所謂的要北上招募,邀請南漂這樣子的一個狀況那目前這個部分我們到底人才培育在學校端的部分國科會這邊後續到底準備好了沒"},{"start":7718.203,"end":7741.636,"text":"我們過去的確高科技產業的發展是以北部為主所以相關的比較高階的研發人力會北漂那這個狀況賴總統也非常關心所以他提出均衡台灣那國科會在這個我們新年度114年的這個計畫裡面提出了這個智慧科技大南方產業生態系"},{"start":7742.717,"end":7743.737,"text":"接下來我們有請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在"},{"start":7776.189,"end":7779.15,"text":"好接下來我們有請范雲委員質詢有請吳主委好有請吳主委范委員好主委早安那個主委知道我們前任主委是誰嗎吳正宗您跟我們前主委有仇嗎沒有沒有仇那你們兩位是不是沒有交接好"},{"start":7807.219,"end":7830.69,"text":"有沒有交接有交接一次有交接喔那為什麼對前主委的計畫您剛剛有人回答上一次有一個是叫做精創嘛您都是回答說今天是說解釋不出來我也不知道然後上次精創也不知道我上台還幫你google了一下說這個因為我們知道前主委有做那個部分嘛"},{"start":7831.01,"end":7851.543,"text":"所以為什麼商院主委很重要的他很引以為傲的計畫您都好像解釋不出來我也不知道但是上次您第一次質詢的時候我坐在這邊還去立刻幫忙講了一下我知道那是不錯的計畫但今天呢今天您剛講了說解釋不出來我也不知道您有講過嗎"},{"start":7852.878,"end":7855.181,"text":"您是不是對跨領域研究都經常不知道?"},{"start":7867.284,"end":7890.393,"text":"沒有啊,跨領域研究我很清楚啊你很知道,可是您上任之後不斷的接到學者的陳情之前我們處理那個600位的連署,就是那個永旭自然處那個我知道所以你有知道,但是還讓這個600多位連署,好幾位院士出來因為他們誤會,我們並沒有要改啊,並沒有要所以您任內之後剛好發生的誤會都在跨領域研究"},{"start":7893.467,"end":7920.302,"text":"上次是空間跟永續我們正在處理當中今天是科技民主與社會政大這個中心剛好前任主委當時有邀我們教文的委員去我剛好在他們成立當天有去現場那覺得非常的對前主委對這個重要的問題用國科會的力量來支持我其實那時候是表達非常的感謝而且期待很高"},{"start":7920.962,"end":7943.542,"text":"請問一下這個中心成立多久您知道嗎?好像是去年4月成立對嘛6月我剛剛有再查一下不是6月10月到現在不到一年那請問您說對跨領域研究瞭解一個人設跟科技的跨領域研究您認為預算應該要擺在哪裡?"},{"start":7948.24,"end":7966.676,"text":"跨領域研究我們我們如果是研究的話應該在各個學術處裡面不是我的是說人事經費應該佔多少一個人文社會科學那要看他計畫的內容如果要研究科技與民主你覺得人事經費應該要佔多少以上是合理的"},{"start":7968.072,"end":7993.839,"text":"這部分倒不一定因為有時候你要收集資料那你製造我們社會科學的研究人事預算佔總經費通常平均多少可能會超過一半對 所以當有人質疑說人事經費居然佔超過一半的時候這不是藐視我們人文社會科學因為我們研究人類就是最重要的是有可能會超過一半難道要拿去買東西或者是拿去買器材嗎這部分我沒有質疑所以這個時候您該辯護的時候沒有辯護"},{"start":7995.979,"end":8019.783,"text":"你認為一個科技與民主臺灣現在是不是在地緣政治跟高科技民主發展的前緣這個也重要沒有問題這是不是重要這是不是應該用國家的力量來研究我們重要的事情國會都會支持OK那國會支持那這樣一個研究中心你覺得一年預算要多少才合理那還要看多少人力進來研究領域因為我還不了解所以我要去了解"},{"start":8025.104,"end":8045.114,"text":"但是不了解就是說如果就是有人質疑的時候對不對就是說您不應該直接認同對方講的東西都是不合理的嗎不是他是在講程序上如果因為我不知道嘛我還不知道這個程序上有問題我們前主委成立一個中心程序有問題嗎我不知道嘛所以我要回去再看一下不是你不知道你但是上次齁"},{"start":8047.615,"end":8064.556,"text":"我剛好也是坐在剛好在這就是說葉元智主委問您一件您捲入的事情您也說不知道我當時其實非常的遺憾非常難過因為那件事情就是也是跟科技與民主有關就是您擔任清大副校長的時候捲入一個兩岸"},{"start":8066.451,"end":8066.471,"text":"當時我"},{"start":8095.353,"end":8102.801,"text":"不是我主管的業務所以我是被指派我是被指派了我事後根本沒有機會去辯駁根本沒有機會你沒有機會但你知不知道他的結局嗎我知道結局啊你結局之後那些人就問你你居然沒有講說你是不是很委屈你還說很委屈還有我來講我的確委屈我還是跟你講"},{"start":8116.815,"end":8117.496,"text":"我願意去了解,我回去我會了解一下"},{"start":8135.815,"end":8158.653,"text":"今天我們兩岸與科技兩岸研究台灣的前三名學者您知道是誰嗎?不知道所以就是科技與民主的前三位的學者您也不知道是誰嗎?我會尊重只要按程序合法"},{"start":8159.614,"end":8172.342,"text":"那今天就是說所以您有懷疑我們前主委有沒有按程序那我現在跟你講一個中心要花多少錢如果以美國安全與新興技術中心2019年在喬治政大學成立的它的創始資金就是5500萬美元那後來呢2021年到2025年每年經費是1億美元"},{"start":8183.188,"end":8203.385,"text":"他研究包含就是AI然後就是國家跟國際安全跟新興科技的跨領域研究要了解新興技術的安全影響然後能夠協助政府進行政策分析他每年的研究經費是總經費1億美元是我們政大這個中心的多少倍您知道嗎"},{"start":8206,"end":8234.179,"text":"我剛剛算了一下我們那個是4000多萬對不對平均起來是我們是人家的百分之我們是人家的百分之1.6然後他一年產生的報告平均55份我們這個中心就是我剛剛緊急去要資料他們到目前為止成立才一年已經產生超過50份的研究報告了所以我們用人家百分之"},{"start":8236.522,"end":8255.722,"text":"1.6的經費在做這樣的工作可是今天就是說因為裡面剛好有幾位就是說好像有綠色背景人社會科學我們用人口來算民進黨的支持度有超過三成吧38多少三個人中會有一個是綠的您不反對吧"},{"start":8257.551,"end":8285.528,"text":"關心科技與民主的這個議題中有幾位剛好有綠色背景的人而且有些像我們前主委根本沒有領薪水他是顧問耶請問主委您今天卸任之後你很重視的一個AI中心這是您心中認為最重要的卸任之後去擔任顧問你認為是一件應該被質疑的事嗎而且沒有領薪水耶我們攻擊人家去當大學董事那是領薪水的私大的耶"},{"start":8285.928,"end":8311.717,"text":"只要不違反學術倫理的我都沒有意見那這時候您居然沒有幫忙辯護我也覺得非常的遺憾因為我不瞭解所以我有說我會瞭解一下那請您好好瞭解之後我剛好要問的就是相關的問題也是跟著有關啦就是我有去問你們上次我講的也是前任幾個我看起來都非常重要跟好的研究那你們有回答有些114年預算不變"},{"start":8312.737,"end":8313.137,"text":"我們所有的計畫"},{"start":8342.902,"end":8344.784,"text":"您的評估指標是可以說得出來嗎?說得出來啊"},{"start":8367.202,"end":8394.77,"text":"重要性階段性任務執行成效後續的工作規劃等等這個我們都有既定的但是現在重要性非常的主觀我們應該找專家來評估對不對比如說科技與民主就應該是國內科技與民主的專家那這個海洋研究就應該是海洋研究永續就應該是永續我的工作就確定所有的計畫按照程序來進行所以全部都會按照程序進行"},{"start":8395.49,"end":8416.788,"text":"上一次我跟您要求的報告就是我說一周內提出決策過程然後一個月內提出應有的民主程序第三個如何保障政策與預算的連貫性可是我上次因為口誤這個一周內講成一個月那這三點我現在看起來這個陳情案真的太多了您是不是可以加速給我"},{"start":8418.763,"end":8421.346,"text":"我希望不要再接這麼多學界的陳情案了我去年當任第一任沒有國科會的陳情案好不好"},{"start":8436.823,"end":8457.498,"text":"主委最重要是政策的連貫性因為我們沒有要為任何人任何中心辯護可是就是說這些看起來合理的事我們一定要有一個嚴謹的評估而且是專業好嗎謝謝委員我也是這樣一定要嚴謹好那我會嚴格監督謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝范雲召委接下來我們有請吳佩儀委員質詢"},{"start":8469.331,"end":8474.137,"text":"謝謝主席我請吳主委好我們有請吳主委"},{"start":8477.765,"end":8504.756,"text":"吳委員好昨天台灣時間晚間諾貝爾物理學獎出爐了那頒給了美國的科學家以及加拿大級的科學家星頓他們的共同研究主題就是人工神經網絡也就是AI深度學習的基礎等於是一個奠基者就比喻如果AI是大腦的話他這個是等於是神經所以這非常重要的整個AI發展基礎的創造者"},{"start":8506.196,"end":8523.785,"text":"我特別注意到新頓這位科學家在去年的時候就發出提醒跟警訊他說AI可能和核武一樣危險需要小心來規範他是AI整個深度學習基礎的創造者"},{"start":8525.166,"end":8548.465,"text":"都這麼樣提醒我們,所以呢其實各國努力發展AI但是也意識到它的風險都紛紛開始制定相關的法規主委你上任之後我有注意到你非常的重視甚至提前了時間的進度原先我們是預期說我們的AI基本法在這個月就是10月就要來提出主委我們會不會如期來完成"},{"start":8549.085,"end":8572.555,"text":"我們已經完成預告、收集意見、做部分的修訂也完成國會法規會的程序也在三個政委主持的行政院會議之下各部會都已經確認這個基本法也把各部會的作用法的架構全部都討論完畢預計在這個月底之前一定會送到行政院"},{"start":8572.995,"end":8597.188,"text":"所以如期完成,好,我們非常的期待,因為我想他非常的重要好,謝謝委員那接下來也是要跟主委關心進度的問題是我們有一個精創台灣方案這個我知道國科會的重點計畫質疑,我也很關注那我們原先有預計在布拉格有一個海外基地要來正式掛牌營運那今年我們有沒有辦法正式掛牌"},{"start":8598.55,"end":8627.006,"text":"我們跟外交部合作的那個是這個月要掛牌那布拉格那個就是因為在捷克的選舉那他們的部會之間有一些討論希望能夠有不同的執行的方式但是我們原來預計今年執行的教育計畫持續在做沒有中斷 有持續在做"},{"start":8628.507,"end":8651.544,"text":"希望在今年底之前就他們的那個參議院確定了以後我們會把那個基地建好那未來會進行主要是在學術研究合作上面協助這個捷克理工大學他們最好的大學跟我們好的大學教授之間能夠長久的加強這個學術合作"},{"start":8652.644,"end":8669.679,"text":"學術合作及人才的培訓剛剛提到這個計畫是希望說預計今年年底的時候就可以開始進行嗎對現在已經正在進行那將來會加強學術研究合作的部分學術研究合作也在培育高階的學生"},{"start":8670.58,"end":8693.1,"text":"因為主委剛剛也提到外交部因為其實台灣跟捷克我們有推動台捷民族夥伴供應鏈韌性及能力建構合作計畫這個計畫是跨部會要來整合合作的裡面包括了什麼呢包括了先進機片的研究供應鏈韌性研究中心關鍵技術降血金甚至商機促進計畫都有"},{"start":8694.481,"end":8715.388,"text":"為什麼這麼重要因為我們台灣現在跟捷克我們的外交友誼是非常重要也就是說大家有沒有注意到小英從前總統卸任之後馬上三天後首度就要出訪了這一次的行程裡面就會來到捷克的布拉格所以我們跟台捷的關係是非常的好"},{"start":8715.888,"end":8731.09,"text":"所以我也請國家科學要幫忙重視現在台灣在世界上我們都是重要的民主夥伴所以可以說部部都是外交部我們所有的對外的發言相關計畫的發布等等都要務必的謹慎"},{"start":8732.432,"end":8753.886,"text":"因為這對我們跟其他的國家尤其是我們重要的友好友誼的國家的信任度是非常重要的請你們要努力加油好不好沒問題謝謝好那接下來吳主委我要跟你非常關心的是你大概也知道我每個會期絕對關心的就是我們的太空中心所以我請吳主委留步另外也請我們主任來備詢"},{"start":8756.963,"end":8777.485,"text":"科技是我們面對下一個世代的關鍵所以除了AI以外太空產業的發展應該是我們政府的重中之重我在我進立法院的第一次總諮詢就跟院長來討論我們太空中心的發展那我看了一下今天其實是一個很重要的日子不知道主委知不知道"},{"start":8778.246,"end":8780.108,"text":"也跟國人分享10月9日就是我們台灣首顆自製的氣象衛星裂縫者升空的一周年今天是他的一歲生日所以呢這個我們希望我們台灣的太空發展可以越來越好"},{"start":8793.363,"end":8799.072,"text":"目前我們TASA的各項計劃包括了你的B5G低軌通訊衛星你的服務費8號9號這些都是打造我們台灣社會韌性非常關鍵的影響力所以我想要請問一下目前這幾項計劃的升空"},{"start":8810.367,"end":8834.96,"text":"還有呢我們跟哪些的國際合作的太空公司來合作因為目前我們升空還是要靠國際合作我們還沒有這隻火箭嘛目前這相關的規劃跟時程是如何我們目前發射的部分當然還是要主要是跟美國合作啦是跟哪一個廠商合作發射是"},{"start":8836.314,"end":8854.904,"text":"公開招會,但是大部分是XSpace因為他們是可靠又便宜那在這個明年吳衛八號,預計是吳衛八號要發射第四季吳衛八號然後我們的B5G的通信衛星預計在2027年發射"},{"start":8857.83,"end":8870.478,"text":"好,所以目前我們都在相關規劃的時程當中目前呢因為我們要升空我們都必須要仰賴歐美的這些廠商因為我們還沒有自資活動可是我們太空發展我們台灣的自主性我認為是非常重要的那我們的"},{"start":8877.623,"end":8892.573,"text":"火箭的國家發射場也在我們的太空法規的法定業務當中所以我想要請問一下因為我看到我們這個入軌火箭計畫113年度編列的預算是6.3億可是114年度現在送進來的預算入軌火箭計畫你們編的是5.4億"},{"start":8904.293,"end":8909.119,"text":"預期當中我們預算應該是有增不會減主委這預算為什麼會從6.3億減少變成5.4億能不能說明因為我們現在在選址選址的部分還需要很多的溝通協調本來是到處都碰壁"},{"start":8923.655,"end":8941.571,"text":"後來大家發現我們說明以後我們建設這個國家發射場其實會結合教育結合觀光就是知識的旅遊結合地方產業的發展所以現在很多地方都在爭取了那爭取以後我們初步在8月的時候我們開了一個"},{"start":8943.893,"end":8963.8,"text":"第二次的審查會從原來5個可能的場址現在縮小到剩下兩個場址一個在台東縣一個在屏東縣那這兩個場址我們現在正在進行跟原住民溝通協調讓他們了解可能的範圍未來發展的機會等等"},{"start":8966.461,"end":8994.271,"text":"那如果一切順利的話我們就會進行最後的這個選舉目前還在積極執行當中所以主委上次你告訴我說發展這個AI主權很重要那我們發展我們自己台灣火箭的自主性是不是也等同重要我們會持續的來進行預算未來只會增不會減能不能承諾那預算我們希望編了以後不要說執行不利啊對主委我最後提醒你喔"},{"start":8995.39,"end":9006.731,"text":"你看一下韓國的這個火箭的預算韓國一年編列的是1.8億美元換算成台幣是50億也就是我們台灣一年的"},{"start":9008.005,"end":9008.926,"text":"謝謝吳佩穎委員"},{"start":9037.219,"end":9061.018,"text":"接下來我們有請葛如君委員質詢謝謝主席有請國會委員吳主委有請吳主委"},{"start":9066.758,"end":9080.996,"text":"各位,你好。你好,主委。本席手上有一張空白支票。如果你撿到一張空白支票,你會隨便填一個數字就拿到銀行去兌換嗎?不會。不會送到警察局嗎?當然嘛。"},{"start":9082.56,"end":9104.267,"text":"我是沒有想要這個去講太多但是確實有人亂填就應該要送到警察局所以您既然知道空白支票不要自己亂填金額去兌現正常人都不應該這樣做那國科會為什麼在空白支票上寫得不清不楚自己就填上3000億元要求全台灣的人民必須要兌現買單要求我們就應該要通過預算呢我們來看一下112年11月"},{"start":9112.973,"end":9138.934,"text":"行政院通過晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案規劃113年到122年10年3000億我手上就是這個計畫書的核定本施行期間113到117年一共5年這5年當中政府到底要做哪些事情主委知道這本核定本報告書有幾頁嗎"},{"start":9140.319,"end":9163.151,"text":"我直接告訴你36頁36頁裡面的預算有多少錢主委知道嗎這一題應該可以回答吧我們這五年要花多少錢在金創計畫我們預算其實是你知不知道不知道我告訴你不知道我告訴你好逐年編列喔好這一份呢我們裡面看到的是1330億元"},{"start":9165.936,"end":9172.338,"text":"等於一頁這樣一頁我們幫你算過了一頁36億再一頁36億我先講為什麼我今天帶這麼多本上來我們沒有看到"},{"start":9182.489,"end":9199.082,"text":"第3年要花多少錢?第4年要花多少錢?第5年要花多少錢?第6年要花多少錢?我們都沒有看到預算法裡面寫得很清楚分年的計劃當你在續年的時候就是要講清楚每一年到底要花多少錢"},{"start":9200.043,"end":9213.665,"text":"如果講了之後有修正還可以再來修但我們現在看到的內容其實非常的不完整我先確認一下啦我剛剛不小心就撕掉了72億那我們先看一下這本合定本主委有沒有好好看過"},{"start":9217.55,"end":9234.881,"text":"我們通常最注意的還是在明年的預算因為他是比較2024到2028這裡面有沒有明年有嘛明年至少在裡面就是100多億183億你現在講183億我待會跟你交流一下"},{"start":9236.342,"end":9254.85,"text":"這裡面你沒看過沒有關係我直接告訴你第一頁到16頁就是講國際現況臺灣現況跟困境第17頁開始到31頁談我們的願景但是沒有KPI沒有OKR沒有人力資源的配比到底我們要怎麼完成稍微老師稍微"},{"start":9257.151,"end":9276.794,"text":"老師稍等我一下待會我會分享一下內容我想先問啦我們從2月開始就不斷的要精創計畫的內容跟規劃還有執行的做法我們到現在都還是只有得到這一本所以老師您可以回答其他的計畫內容在哪裡"},{"start":9278.935,"end":9305.648,"text":"委員那個是方案啦所以他本來就是沒有細部的KPI我們每一年的計畫都在審所以我請14年的精創的計畫現在是183億並不是上面寫的一年300億啦所以我們是詳細的審核那是框列那個是整個的vision的這個整個方案的推動是這個樣子我想委員你看過很多的審查計畫你應該知道這個方案其實整個方案的意義是這個"},{"start":9306.969,"end":9314.394,"text":"謝謝老師老師在AI還有半導體真的做很多事我們以前在台大共事也很愉快你也指導很多但是我要先講我們目前真的認為現在金創計畫的預算還有很多細化討論的空間"},{"start":9322.859,"end":9340.342,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法一一列出來就會發生這個做到一半發現有問題那個到底是不是屬於金創計畫老實說預算書裡面你們如果拿晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案裡面去搜尋是完全找不到的每一個專案的名稱都變得不一樣我們來講剛剛老師講到的這個主委也提到的183億對不對我們來看一下我們的預算您在媒體上喊"},{"start":9351.547,"end":9376.189,"text":"200億然後呢你在國科會業務報告第4頁提到183億結果呢昨天國科會又提供給我們的資料又提供給我們的資料加起來我說金創計劃明年到底是多少億加起來90億然後呢我們還把經濟部的加進去98億還有什麼呢我們再去看了裡面到底"},{"start":9377.45,"end":9390.018,"text":"我就想請主委說明一下金創台灣114年度的預算到底是200億183億還是98億我們現在是183億現在是國科會那之前是未來是我們行政院的預算書裡面就是這樣那國科會就是你們預算對不起我唸一下114年度國科會執行之金創計畫含他部會主題計畫加起來"},{"start":9404.85,"end":9412.996,"text":"90.039億我們把經濟部加上去90.49 90.49把經濟部加上去98.039所以如果我們只有36頁然後呢預算書裡面每一個名字都不一樣就會有這個問題"},{"start":9425.894,"end":9445.595,"text":"預算書應該是正確的啦,就國科會98億,經濟部其實有73.3億,速發部7.7億,教育部2.5億,國發會,農業部,衛福部都有,比較少所以183不會再變喔?不會啦,183是啦那如果多了如果少了勒?你確定喔?"},{"start":9448.034,"end":9474.782,"text":"我們都有錄影紀錄喔回去算一下很可能會變喔因為你們在預算書我真的拜託主委還有各位官員回去看一下你們在預算書裡面的每一個計畫都不叫做晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案為什麼每一個名字都不一樣你們是想加多的時候就加多想變少的時候就變少嗎我在這裡跟主委交流一下預算法第39條"},{"start":9478.016,"end":9496.355,"text":"繼續經費預算之編制應列明全部計劃之內容經費總額執行期間以及注意喔各年度之分配額依各年度之分配額編列該年度的預算我們連明年的預算數字都會變了後年呢大後年呢"},{"start":9498.275,"end":9513.335,"text":"各位,金創方案是一個方案,真正行政編預算是要有計劃的。那個計劃如果是多年期,一定多年期那個計劃都會有。什麼叫做只是一個方案?這是一個已經核定的?"},{"start":9514.253,"end":9523.976,"text":"10年3000億合定本出來5年1330億什麼叫只是一個方案?那我們怎麼監督阿?你們計畫不清楚我們怎麼監督阿?預算法第39條我們計畫都清楚現在只是說哪些計畫是納在金創方案裡面的我認為大家都很認真在做事"},{"start":9541.921,"end":9561.857,"text":"我們在預算書裡真的沒有看到這個名字的計畫每一個名字都不一樣金創方案不是計畫但是在金創方案裡面可能會有一些計畫他沒有把金創方案寫出來那每一個名字都不一樣啊都是跟晶片有關的好沒關係我相信你們有一個PDF檔是有列出來的"},{"start":9563.138,"end":9587.677,"text":"本席在此希望要求國科會的主計單位依據預算法第39條今天下班前找到這個檔案PDF也好 Excel也好把應該列明的資訊分年的計劃各年度的分配額以書面方式符合39條的內容書面方式送到本席的辦公室否則我覺得這樣我們怎麼這是不是規避預算審核啊"},{"start":9591.799,"end":9599.474,"text":"這根本就是一個1330億的大黑箱甚至是一個10年3000億的大黑箱啊那你跟我講四個字指示方案"},{"start":9600.903,"end":9622.99,"text":"金創台灣那是一個方案那是行政院的方案但是我們計畫說計畫一定都會按照預算法編列一定都會的所以對不起我覺得我今天比較激動因為我是真的很希望搞清楚在座有很多都是我的老師所有人都非常在意AI的發展但是我們現在沒有人搞得清楚我們3年後可以花多少錢4年後可以花多少錢"},{"start":9623.77,"end":9637.595,"text":"我們台德做了這麼努力可能就1億多夠嗎我們的算力現在50幾全球排名第17夠嗎然後我們問來問去每次算力的數字都不一樣你在內容報告書裡寫100PF然後呢現在變成116"},{"start":9641.916,"end":9663.61,"text":"剛剛呢我們又知道說五年內算力要變成280加上大南方又變成480 480我們好不容易可以排到亞洲第二名 對不對我們想要排亞洲第三前三嘛 對不對我告訴主委亞洲第二名是2024年的第二名啦你480加上去可能 我們還有產業投入還沒有算欸"},{"start":9665.379,"end":9684.307,"text":"所以我們想知道您是怎麼算的南韓的數字2028是多少您2028要花多少錢什麼樣的計畫執行的方案我們沒有看到所以我們希望可以看到跟大家一起努力好不好這個主委可以幫忙嗎請主計單位把預算的細節交付到本委員辦公室"},{"start":9691.77,"end":9717.564,"text":"否則啦我認為這樣子的一個做法我就給您八個字希望科學計算我們到底什麼樣的目標用科學的方法去計算不要用喊的合理的預算科學計算合理預算讓我們台灣真的成為AI影響力的中心我會請委員兩位老師一定會把它弄好謝謝單位主計單位好不好主計單位"},{"start":9719.045,"end":9719.525,"text":"因為時間已經到了"},{"start":9731.024,"end":9758.558,"text":"謝謝葛如荊委員這裡我想本期要先提醒一下我們在備詢的時候還是有一個備詢的規則在的我知道大家很心急我也知道因為葛如荊委員其實很客氣也有很多師生關係在裡面但是來到委員會要尊重備詢的一個規則在除非委員有詢問到或者是主席有邀請到不然的話我希望大家不要那麼心急我們慢慢說明慢慢解釋"},{"start":9759.819,"end":9762.4,"text":"接下來我們有請葉元之委員主席好,麻煩請國科會主委好,我們有請吳主委"},{"start":9791.895,"end":9820.362,"text":"葉委員好吳主委好那個上個會期那個時候還是前一個主委的時候其實我非常關心就是我們博科會博士生獎學金的問題那當時我有提出三個問題那那個前主委也承諾會改善但是我們辦公室一段時間就會接到博士生的陳情電話看得出來國科會完全都沒有想改變的意思我今天就來就教一下到底國科會是怎麼回事我上個會期我先前期回顧一下上個會期就曾經提到"},{"start":9821.002,"end":9838.845,"text":"因為你們有提出一個獎學金嘛400個名額主要是激勵型的希望讓那些還沒有決定要讀博士班的學生不要因為經濟的問題讓他卻步所以大概補助三年一個月補助四萬塊鼓勵他們在免除經濟壓力的情況之下來報考博士班"},{"start":9839.646,"end":9861.062,"text":"他有三個問題第一個問題是你們的申請時間以去年來講是在9月15日到10月16日只有一個月的申請時間而且是在10月16日截止換言之如果他是在11月想要讀博士班甚至於等到很多大學的博士班的招生檢章出來之後他看了檢章覺得不錯他想報考"},{"start":9862.486,"end":9887.063,"text":"但是他有經濟壓力他就沒有辦法得到國科會這樣的協助也喪失了國科會的這個政策的美意第二件事情是完全宣傳完全不足因為很多人不知道這個計畫當時只有不好意思我在跟主委詢答可以不要干擾主委嗎主席你剛剛不是才有講過嗎我先暫停一下好不好"},{"start":9888.431,"end":9915.599,"text":"我想直接再暫停一下那我想其實大家想要協助主委不過真的要尊重一下我們在質詢的委員好不好不然等一下我問什麼主委也不知道啊以前就發生過這個狀況啊主委要注意一下好不好各位同仁拜託大家不要心急然後第二個問題就是宣傳不足很多人根本不知道這個計畫然後等到知道之後已經來不及了所以導致於好像很多有巷子內的人知道這個計畫第二個宣傳不足第三個是在學學生被排除因為他之前不曉得這個計畫"},{"start":9916.579,"end":9939.473,"text":"到學校之後發現怎麼有這個計畫發現不能申請了因為他已經入學了所以很多人反而再次跑去考一次博士班取得新生資格來申請這個計畫上個會期就已經提到這三個問題了結果這幾個月我們還是不斷的接到博士生的陳情講同一件事這三個問題完全沒有改善第一"},{"start":9940.353,"end":9958.252,"text":"主委你們這一次申請時間一樣是在今年的10月1號到10月31號還是只有一個月時間換言之等到申請到10月31號截止之後想要讀博士班但是有經濟壓力的研究生他就沒有辦法來申請了嘛"},{"start":9959.093,"end":9980.974,"text":"如果他在2月3月看到博士生檢章想要報考就沒有辦法來申請阿第二宣傳一樣不足阿連一場記者會都沒有召開我剛剛還去google我怕誤會你們阿我去google國科會博士班獎學金一則新聞都沒有關於現在你正在宣傳的計畫一則新聞都沒有我剛剛還去看你的臉書臉書也完全沒有宣傳"},{"start":9981.815,"end":10007.423,"text":"所以我不知道說你這個是辦給誰辦給國科會的子弟嗎還是辦給只有認識國科會的人那上個會期跟我們講說會加強跟學校聯絡我去問了狀況很多學校的老師跟學生還是不知道這個計畫啊所以你到底是宣傳給誰然後再來就是在學生一樣是被排除所以上個會期前主委承諾的要改善的每一件事情都沒有改善"},{"start":10008.163,"end":10036.164,"text":"然後再來我們來看一下你們最新的這個檢章檢章我覺得也是很奇怪這剛剛我有講過資格就是你們就是申請到10月31日下一頁然後要送怎麼件呢以去年來講你們是有除了申請表之外還有研究計畫書還有一些其他審查資料那今年是把研究計畫書把它去掉只有申請書跟其他審查資料我先問一下主委今年為什麼把研究計畫書把它取消"},{"start":10036.937,"end":10040.279,"text":"委員提到說他一入學就要申請他可能還沒有研究計畫不是一入學又要申請"},{"start":10056.79,"end":10058.212,"text":"結果主委你看一下這也是你們的簡章"},{"start":10077.592,"end":10099.061,"text":"113年因為你有要求他提出研究計畫所以你有個研究計畫的評分嘛要占百分之三十然後研究計畫對國家未來發展重要性占百分之十右邊是你們最新的簡章主委請您看一下簡章右邊114年度我劃線部分有沒有研究計畫有沒有研究計畫有沒有研究計畫還是有還是有研究計畫占幾分主委"},{"start":10108.15,"end":10113.701,"text":"40分好我們上一頁右邊你的簡章裡面要人家教的資料裡面有沒有研究計畫"},{"start":10115.663,"end":10139.829,"text":"沒有!所以很荒謬嘛!你在前面的簡章沒有叫人家交研究計畫下一頁研究計畫佔了40%的分數那如果你是申請的人主委你是申請的人你到底是要交研究計畫還是不要交研究計畫而且主委你剛剛自己講的喔為什麼免除研究計畫是因為要讓大家的申請門檻降低"},{"start":10141.299,"end":10155.955,"text":"結果實際上你剛剛講的東西完全打裂你之前說的話嘛所以我只舉一個缺失其實這個缺失蠻嚴重因為你會讓申請的人無所適從啊你就知道說你們在辦理這個研究計畫辦理這個獎學金有辦得多麼的隨便"},{"start":10158.317,"end":10172.628,"text":"所以我為什麼非常生氣因為很多學生是不買單的嘛我們來看一下這個除了有很多人跟我陳情之外網路上也都很容易看到人家抱怨你這個獎學金像左邊那個是一個成功大學在低卡的學生的發文他說"},{"start":10174.309,"end":10203.009,"text":"你看我們框起來的部分他有打電話給國科會的人去問這個獎學金的事情結果你們國科會的人跟他講說哎呀獎學金這麼多啊也不是只有國科會啊你就提早規劃不會喔學生說那個國科會的人讓他感覺是不差你這一個啦反正我們只要把預算消化完就好了有沒有達到政策目的沒有差啦然後你看他框出來的部分他說感覺雖然立委質詢過可是國科會就是不重視"},{"start":10205.17,"end":10222.443,"text":"而且沒有想要真正的培養優秀研究生然後右邊是國立清華大學在低卡的一個學生的發文他也講啦他說他一直在研究國科會的這個研究計畫結果名額很少啦看了半天原來是當屆博弈才能申請他也搞不清楚你們的計畫"},{"start":10223.504,"end":10250.705,"text":"所以他的署名是什麼呢一路打工兼差苦撐到現在快畢業的一個學生奉勸大家讀博士班要三思你們這個計畫已經讓學生在網路上批評成這樣叫大家不要讀博士班我就問啦這個東西有符合你們政策的目標嗎沒有所以我們要改你上個會期就說要改啦請問一下這個是哪一個處負責的"},{"start":10254.292,"end":10263.967,"text":"所以以後你們就只要換一個主委換一個部長做事就可以重蹈覆轍可以這樣嗎不是我答應你主委你這樣講話我聽不下去啦"},{"start":10265,"end":10293.757,"text":"那麼多博士生大家都有經濟壓力想要拿那個獎學金你們說要激勵大家要免除大家的經濟壓力結果你的政策反而讓大家在網路上罵聲一片奉勸其他人不要讀博士生然後你講話還前後矛盾說我要免除研究計畫但是後面又有研究計畫這到底是什麼演張啊你會不會降低國科會的公信力這是我們執行的問題啦所以這一點我們會幫他改善過怎麼改善"},{"start":10295.027,"end":10319.943,"text":"就是把它去掉啊不是只有這個問題而已我剛剛講了三個問題第一個你有宣傳嗎宣傳不利宣傳不利那要怎麼宣傳你現在時間來得及剛剛委員提到的包含在臉書國科的這個網站等等都不夠啦那但是學校卓偉你會讓人家以為說好像跟你們國科認識的人才來申請啦一般人都不曉得嘛"},{"start":10320.723,"end":10336.993,"text":"那委員建議什麼DECOX嗎?不是你第一個你要分階段來弄這個名額嘛否則的話你這個到了10月底沒有申請的人以後就沒有機會了嘛你要分階段如果我今天是5月我看了簡章我才想要報名的人然後我有經濟壓力的我就沒辦法來申請了啊"},{"start":10337.993,"end":10364.818,"text":"這部分原來是因為行政院通過的方案裡面就已經定時了那我會改我會改希望未來你講因為你現在檢張還沒有因為你這到10月31號你跟我講怎麼補救這一次沒有辦法沒有補救那如果他是明年3月才想要報名的一樣的問題啊他就沒有辦法來申請了啊我們有發配給學校的除了那400個是國會申請之外我們給學校有600個名額"},{"start":10366.477,"end":10387.91,"text":"我們要解決我剛剛講的問題 我覺得針對問題回答啦 因為你也是學者啦 我們就針對問題回答但是我們給學校的是 學校可以制定辦法那我現在講的是這400個名額好不好 卓惠 要廢掉這400個嗎如果你編的預算有這400個名額 我們就要把這個做到好嘛 不是有做就好 要做到好嘛我們會把它做好啦 怎麼做"},{"start":10390.683,"end":10413.47,"text":"因為我們早已站起來了我想諸位你應該也是第一次聽到這麼荒謬的計畫你可能需要一點時間消化你什麼時候來我們辦公室來說明一下這個計畫因為這個是講博士生很關心的不要開玩笑這是教育的東西耶什麼時候可以改好我們要改啊三個月可以嗎"},{"start":10415.843,"end":10416.744,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員質詢接下來請"},{"start":10446.099,"end":10446.599,"text":"吳誠成委員質詢"},{"start":10470.898,"end":10494.659,"text":"各位好,就跟剛才議員之委員一樣,我也覺得好像溝通了很多次那國科會聞風不動我也看了仔細的拜讀你們的業務報告所有的觀念都沒有改變"},{"start":10496.741,"end":10520.388,"text":"完全置之不理我還想在這個報告當中高齡研究沒有看到高齡研究沒有看到我們所溝通的相關而且你也說這個時候的溝通你們都在做我在看你們裡面有關高齡的"},{"start":10522.642,"end":10545.748,"text":"跟這個10年前完全的東西都沒變都還是一路的只有以健康醫療這個主委這個國科會應該都是科學家吧科學家應該是科學家吧對不對國科會都是科學家科學家依據的是什麼"},{"start":10547.421,"end":10570.466,"text":"政治考量：經濟考量還是事實考量：數據吧應該根據數據吧這個 主委 這個數據 這數據你瞭解吧 你知道吧我瞭解你瞭解嘛 它代表什麼意義我問一下國科會現在你在制定高齡政策是在1970年的思維還是用2040年的思維"},{"start":10574.503,"end":10599.189,"text":"當然我們是要往未來去看已經在眼前那不是未來但是未來會更嚴重那也很嚴重那你看一下這一個人口問題這麼嚴重那你們當作一個科學家裡面談了半天文獎完全幾乎沒有在處理這個問題"},{"start":10600.089,"end":10606.012,"text":"我看了啊,我看你們的業務報告啊,你除了跟10年前的這些醫療照顧之外,我沒有看到任何新東西啊"},{"start":10622.06,"end":10638.731,"text":"但是我們不會只照顧特定的年齡層啦不是這個叫什麼特定科技研發不是這個特定這個特定你看過2010年上面佔百分之百分之三十六十五歲以上的人佔百分之三十叫特定這個叫特定嗎我們健康台灣的計畫會特別為了為了這個"},{"start":10647.489,"end":10656.031,"text":"我講你就是活在1970年所謂特定就是1970年65歲上占人口2.9%這叫特定2040年是30.1%這叫特定嗎我們有相關的計畫高齡科技產業行動三分之一的人口在你的計畫書裡面我們的科技政策幾乎是付之缺乳"},{"start":10676.397,"end":10689.986,"text":"但是我們所有的一些科技...那這個假如說我們不會...我覺得你講這個話就讓我非常寒心了不是 我們所有科技研發的計畫一定最後都會把它應用到這個年齡層 一定會有的啦一定有 但是沒有專門來應付"},{"start":10693.248,"end":10710.333,"text":"全民,所有東西都是全民的我看到你有特別對每一個都是有一個特定目的、特定目標的服務啊我們的應用的部分就是顯現在健康台灣的那個基本上啦現在這個高齡者65歲現在有500萬人這500萬人當中"},{"start":10715.854,"end":10731.638,"text":"沒有在使用網路這個是國科會的資料裡面有一個什麼叫做平台裡面沒有使用網路的250萬人一半的人沒有在使用那有在使用的另外250萬人當中在使用政府服務的數為87.5萬"},{"start":10735.619,"end":10756.547,"text":"基本上大概就是400萬吧百分之八十沒有在使用政府沒有做這些的對這些人沒有在扶持嘛扶持的非常少嘛這個是一個事實這是你們自己的數據"},{"start":10759.389,"end":10783.102,"text":"我現在講的國客會對壯世代對高齡者你也不要聽說壯世代高齡者的人設不能只是長照你現在裡面提的就這個已經講的就是繞著醫院團團轉這樣子這個提到了這不是高齡者這個叫做撫養筆這個溝通已經溝通很多次了壓垮下一代"},{"start":10783.882,"end":10784.563,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10803.429,"end":10825.609,"text":"這是引發全面性的問題 這不是特定族群的問題整個內閣要一起行動起來 每一個部會都要有每一個部會都要把高齡者納入主要的政策 我們現在都把它當作邊陲政策預算都除了衛福部之外 預算都未達1%"},{"start":10827.355,"end":10844.648,"text":"在各部會當中但是我也提到了壯士代支應了我們的預算的55%我們的稅基整個政府的預算是壯士代供應55%但是各部會提供的服務不到1%還認為說他是特定族群"},{"start":10848.488,"end":10864.94,"text":"聯合國建了主題叫做不要遺落任何人所有的科學家競領排在所有的高喊轉型正義都是不要遺落任何人而我們的國科會遺落了占三分之一人口的壯世代"},{"start":10866.021,"end":10892.676,"text":"沒有遺落沒有遺落我可以跟委員報告我在那個BTC會議結論的時候講得很清楚因為國會是以科技研發為主我們現在要把科技產業的實力讓他來怎麼樣去結合我們包含醫療的產業照護的產業都能夠讓他可以協助到不是進到醫院去的人而是一般的這個應用服務我們都可以"},{"start":10893.236,"end":10918.486,"text":"但是我在整個我覺得你們對這部分的論述比如說你們對到女力科技你們當專注到一個議題的時候你們就規劃了很多的事項應該做的事情很多那我也想請科學家們這個是三分之一人口的問題台灣未來30年最重要的問題就是人口問題高齡化、少子化這問題科學家不去面對它不去解決它的話"},{"start":10919.886,"end":10944.395,"text":"臺灣就是一場災難這個我們了解啦所以賴總統才會有這個健康臺灣的這個議題會出來所以呢其實這個我還是要再三的所以呢那個主委也提到了要重視這個問題嘛對啦就是壯實的科技平權我看這一期當中你有針對特定不同族群有提出你們的科技計畫"},{"start":10946.318,"end":10948.326,"text":"那是不是也可以提狀態的科技計畫可以嗎"},{"start":10951.668,"end":10953.169,"text":"對高齡者我們會再加強"},{"start":10980.37,"end":10981.071,"text":"主席麻煩主委主委麻煩請備詢謝謝"},{"start":11008.971,"end":11035.728,"text":"王委員好主委你以前是台南的PJ所以我們就只在指望時間有限PJ是投手的意思以防其他人聽不懂聽得懂第一個我們在本席在2018年19年有提出敏感科技保護法後來到2022年換屆了到第10屆上一屆的時候我們在4月份我們通過了國家安全法第3條條文相關的修正草案針對我們國家的重要科技"},{"start":11036.348,"end":11056.74,"text":"民間科技必須予以保護跟適當的管理那在2023年4月26號呢當時的國科會根據國安法修法之後的結果訂定了國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法這個部分注意仔要嗎?我仔對那後來呢拖了相當長的時間因為根據關鍵技術的認定辦法"},{"start":11060.962,"end":11075.449,"text":"每一年度要review一次要重新檢查一次因為科技與日俱增所以要來檢視所以在2024年這一個我看到你們有公布第二波清單辦理事項因為在2023年的12月5號"},{"start":11078.37,"end":11096.243,"text":"當時的國科會有公告了第一波國家核心關鍵技術項目及主管清單總計有22項裡面大概有5個主管機關牽涉到像封裝的安全啦相關的技術那我現在要提問了就是說"},{"start":11097.023,"end":11116.904,"text":"因為這有關臺灣經貿科技的優勢這跟我們臺灣變經濟有關也有關臺灣是否為自由民主世界的reliable supplier可靠的供應者那也有關歐美盟友的關切你看美國總統大選他們有沒有談到這個當他們在管制晶片的時候"},{"start":11118.098,"end":11136.261,"text":"雖然那可能是一個謬誤,他們卻認為是台灣把晶片留向不可靠的對手。所以當美國的晶片法案、荷蘭的光刻機、日本的設備跟化材等等,我第一個請教主委,我們台灣第二波的核心關鍵技術項目什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":11137.628,"end":11162.637,"text":"我們現在已經在請各部會提出清單當中那國科會我們自己也已經有列出一個增加的清單我有幫你去問經濟部的產業技術師在已經發文給你們提列了第二波有關電池晶片技術晶片製程等文你你們有收到了嗎有有那速發部好像還沒有提報"},{"start":11164.724,"end":11165.285,"text":"目前我們還在溝通當中"},{"start":11180.066,"end":11208.959,"text":"你們的大限是12月4號嗎?原則上我們一年一定會開一次所以我們目標就是12月底我們會把審議會開完12月底喔?12月之前年底前今年一定會把審議會開了我們當時規定的是每一個年度要公布一次所以你們是以年度來算是今年底我是以你們上次公告時間是12月5號來算是12月4號沒關係我可以給你多一點時間那今年底你們要review出來的重點現在有沒有方向?"},{"start":11209.966,"end":11228.224,"text":"現在有方向,我們第一,剛剛委員有特別提醒我們跟我們的很重要的友邦以及友好國家,特別是美國我訪問了美國,訪問了德國,其實也都提到這個議題我們會特別跟他們會有一致性的看法"},{"start":11228.884,"end":11254.911,"text":"你現在講的是一個很重大的事情喔一致性看法意思就是美國晶片法案所禁止的事項臺灣會列進去我們當然還要衡量我們的產業因為它包含了服務包含了資金包含了技術包含了component它全部都是有列管喔我們主要是這個國科會負責技術的部分技術部分當應用到產業的時候經濟部會把那些條件會把它加進來"},{"start":11256.47,"end":11275.318,"text":"我建議因為這一個事情是保持我們國家的競爭優勢牽涉到我們在供應鏈裡面的可信賴程度所以是重要的事它不僅是國家安全不僅是敏感科技它更是我們拼經濟非常重要一個基礎所以我個人是贊成跟主要盟友國家荷蘭的管制ASMO"},{"start":11276.238,"end":11296.323,"text":"日本最近才公布管制他們的那個機器設備我們可以有一致性的標準然後他在經濟上對我們的好處國家安全上的好處你們可以把它明列清楚讓我們國家的國人企業界能夠了解因為他主要的主力可能會來自於某一些仰賴中國市場的企業界所以可能說明說服的工作諸位這邊要加強"},{"start":11297.123,"end":11309.887,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為我們的市場我們產業經營的方向也要逐漸的去做一些轉移那所以跟美國的合作會加強好 謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝王定宇委員質詢 官員請回座那我們接著繼續質詢請鍾嘉斌委員質詢時間4分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":11321.957,"end":11337.905,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府機關長．官員會長．工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生．有請我們吳主委．還有請南科局的政局長．還有國家太空中心的吳主任請主委局長跟主任備質詢謝謝"},{"start":11342.261,"end":11357.463,"text":"主委好我想這是我們第一次面對面跟你請教因為只有四分鐘有四個題目很簡短的讓您知道也會表達您的意見我有四個重點第一個就是有屏東科學園區對不對本席有這四個重點那你知道屏東科學園區面積多少開發面積多少嗎"},{"start":11358.939,"end":11384.353,"text":"大概38公頃嘛對,所以他算是一個比較小的他跟南科的三期也是38公頃嘛對,所以既然屏東科學園區南科的第三期擴建比較大但第三期的,人家第三期就38公頃了屏東整個可用的才38公頃所以要請那個政局長多費心其實就因為他的面積相當有限那附近還有其他的屬於經濟部的科技產業"},{"start":11384.813,"end":11384.953,"text":"政局長"},{"start":11412.832,"end":11429.721,"text":"是的委員這邊我們除了屏東科學園區以外其實科技產業園區在旁邊也有擴區你們都統合一起來招商是好謝謝第二個問題那因為未來的這個國家太空中心的目前的科研火箭試射在屏東那未來我們的發射場域有可能勘定兩個地方那主委能不能幫我們介紹一下會在哪兩個地方"},{"start":11438.6,"end":11455.009,"text":"我們會在這個南田那個台東目前確定在南田還有屏東的九棚兩個候選這兩個候選大概會考量哪些選項考量哪些要素然後做這個決定什麼時候會決定"},{"start":11456.089,"end":11472.945,"text":"這兩個地點都符合我們的條件那最後要決定要第一當地的居民包含我們原住民認同牡丹山鄉長已經完全認同了很可惜的酒棚是在滿周下再來就是地方政府的配合"},{"start":11473.545,"end":11497.037,"text":"民眾也全力支持我們周先生也是這麼說因為我們到時候還有這個環境影響評估啦用地取得啦開發的時候那個基本上過去民眾從不知道有點疑慮到現在很積極的爭取我想是不是請您指示我們吳主任未來你們的選擇條件希望地方怎麼配合讓吳主任來跟我們做充分的說明以利地方爭取可以嗎吳主任"},{"start":11497.697,"end":11500.399,"text":"主任有預計什麼時候再去地方做這樣的磋商嗎?我們其實已經在進行了第三個問題我非常關心的就是我們的新能源的開發"},{"start":11526.914,"end":11548.31,"text":"那目前國科會在新能源的科學像氫能你們是有哪個部門在負責是永續研究發展處呢還是國家實驗研究院我們是自然處在負責統合自然處嘛就是永續研究發展處嘛那你們對於其他部門瞭解嗎像中研院他們也對於去碳純氫這樣的計畫你們有在關切嗎"},{"start":11552.131,"end":11552.512,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":11576.907,"end":11595.442,"text":"關鍵基礎設施國科會有掌握嗎?剛剛我們的王定宇委員有問關鍵基礎設施你了解他的重要性嗎?關鍵基礎設施是技術部分還是設施的部分?設施的部分設施我們當然當然要關注是很重要的所以你們目前國科會有律定我們國科會所管轄的關鍵基礎設施哪個單位在管?"},{"start":11596.325,"end":11599.969,"text":"我們自然處有所謂的核心設施共用那如果未來我要關鍵你們對這些關鍵基礎設施要找哪個窗口我才能夠了解你們有沒有做好適當的防護"},{"start":11613.447,"end":11615.368,"text":"主委謝謝主委謝謝局長謝謝主任"},{"start":11640.426,"end":11648.028,"text":"謝謝總嘉賓委員的質詢關於請回座謝謝那我們接下來繼續進行質詢那有請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝謝主席有請吳主委主委要喝水嗎沒關係不用好羅委員好"},{"start":11666.035,"end":11690.775,"text":"好 主委這是商任第二次業務報告本期想今天就進一步跟你了解一下商任滿月的時候呢6月24日你有對媒體說希望任內培育第一位本土的諾貝爾得主那當然我們知道這是一個宏大的一個目標我們也都非常認同也希望一起來努力無論是過往的李遠哲先生丁兆中博士非常不簡單但是他們都有出國深造"},{"start":11691.716,"end":11710.835,"text":"那去年翁啟惠院士與此殊榮擦肩而過讓國人倍感惋惜當然我們非常期望可以看到台灣能夠誕生出自己一個本土培育出來的諾貝爾得獎那我有注意到你上任前有撰寫一篇文章大學憑什麼享有學術自由對吧"},{"start":11711.596,"end":11739.858,"text":"您具體的提到台灣目前學生不念博士班主要的原因是因為教授們沒有主動協助學生達成合理的學習目標且論文點數掛帥導致學生都在幫教授寫論文卻從來不在乎論文是否能夠有落實貢獻幫助通過嚴謹的國內外同儕互評機制您更直接提到如果以論文偏數為標準納迪院則院士就絕對不可能得到諾貝爾獎"},{"start":11741.775,"end":11763.542,"text":"那麼你問為接手國科會在你領導之下國科會對此具體的作為會是什麼是協助教育部來落實國內外的同儕互評機制還是如何落實產出更有貢獻的一個論文你對自己提出的培育第一位本土諾貝爾得獎組的一個目標目前有多少的信心我想這個部分我想聽聽你的想法"},{"start":11764.515,"end":11788.394,"text":"我的確是想要朝這個方向走就是說我們在學界的這個學術評量上面能夠鼓勵大家對於產生對人類社會的重大貢獻為目標而不是以只是論文發表的數量為目標因為學術的成果發表論文當然是很重要的一個傳遞知識的管道"},{"start":11788.894,"end":11789.514,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11807.819,"end":11835.619,"text":"不要只是把它發表論文期待人家看了論文就可以接續的把它完成應用這一點其實是蠻重要的所以我會提到李遠哲院士的原因是因為他把他的想法真正做成設備設備可以做實驗那個交叉分子數碰撞儀造成後續的很多的化學家想要了解他的理論是不是可以實現的時候非常重大的貢獻所以他不是只是一個科學家當然"},{"start":11836.42,"end":11851.328,"text":"他還是一個工程師是他真正把東西做出來那我們看到你現在有表態你的態度嗎還是持續為朝這個方向來努力有目標很好那具體有沒有什麼樣的做法甚至有沒有什麼期程但是我們行政不能干預學術所以我們就希望說"},{"start":11852.369,"end":11866.775,"text":"第一步我們從這個學問召集人我其實有表達我的理念然後再來就是希望能夠在學校大學裡面也我們在下一屆的這個大學校長會議希望也能夠宣導這個事情因為很多的這個辦法"},{"start":11867.935,"end":11867.955,"text":"謝謝羅委員"},{"start":11897.23,"end":11925.863,"text":"好那第二個問題我想問一下關於海外精創基地我們都知道國科會啟動了精創台灣方案目前拍板的基地應該是位於捷克的這個布拉格但是原本預計要9月正式營運卻沒能如期當時有提到外交部說是國科會請國科會來說明當時國科會的說明是說捷克正逢選舉內部有許多的意見要整合那如今選舉已經9月28日結束了請問捷克內部的意見是否已經整合完成"},{"start":11926.423,"end":11952.257,"text":"他們還出現在整合當中因為還有議長的選舉之類馬上要進行因為捷克各個政黨對我們都很有善所以我們不會預期有困難只是說他們的意見我們要尊重他們的意見那我們跟捷克理工大學在布拉格的合作其實並沒有中斷我們持續在進行所以你跟各個黨派都有去做溝通"},{"start":11953.429,"end":11979.778,"text":"都會溝通因為他們是執政聯盟所以其實對台灣都蠻友善的我想這個因為它有五黨聯盟的一個動盪那我想海盜黨現在集體退出聯合政府有關那包括捷克的外交部長也是海盜黨他現在也都有所辭職請問部長有沒有掌握相關的狀況這一部分我們會讓外交部來協助我們會跟外交部搭配搭配來進行後續的合作那你有信心今年會營運嗎"},{"start":11983.809,"end":12000.547,"text":"我想國人關心的是管轄權的問題台灣在這個項目中投入了121億那現在並且根據官方捷克的一個表示將投入不少於3300萬美元以前話台捷之間的一個供應鏈的韌性但有捷克官員表態讓管轄權屬於台灣的相當困難"},{"start":12003.931,"end":12015.631,"text":"這是否意味著台灣的資金和技術上投入最終可能只是作為捷克建設金創園區我們要如何確保在這一項投資當中台灣在這個合作能夠獲得實質的管轄跟利多"},{"start":12016.567,"end":12037.012,"text":"我們倒不想去管轄啦我們是真正要進行合作那合作從國會的角度來看如果是學界之間的合作通常都不會有這個政治的干擾出現啦所以我還是蠻樂觀的當然管轄是其次啦但是我希望最重要是對台灣在合作過程當中有利多"},{"start":12038.292,"end":12062.23,"text":"這部分是我必須要表達的深切的一個關心那我們也希望你這樣的技術這樣子的一個合作當然我們都認同那我們也希望一定要特別注意一些細節讓這件事情不只在推動的時候順利推動之後還能夠帶來台階雙方重大的一個利益是謝謝我會照顧到說這個合作對彼此都會有利對台灣也是會有利的好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":12065.532,"end":12070.014,"text":"謝謝羅廷威委員的質詢關於請回座謝謝那我們接著繼續質詢請羅志強委員質詢羅志強謝謝有請國科會主委請主委備質詢謝謝"},{"start":12089.657,"end":12117.124,"text":"主委好上禮拜跟主委也才在這裡碰面那我覺得主委你的好爽跟這個大氣的承諾我也都記得你說要在4年內讓台灣的AI準備度從世界排名19重新回到10名內 對不對那你也算力要把它回到10名內那這一點我肯定部長有氣魄做出一個非常具體的指標的一個明確的目標"},{"start":12118.144,"end":12129.611,"text":"但是國發會今年在各項領域總共編列了一般科技預算1467億元114年度科技預算將強化哪五大產業發展"},{"start":12131.414,"end":12150.109,"text":"打五個產業喔?對第一當然就是我們半導體會持續嘛AI會持續然後我們也協助國安部經濟部發展這個軍工相關的然後再算是韌性安控的部分安控"},{"start":12150.889,"end":12173.705,"text":"再來就是我們的次世代的通訊特別是衛星通訊的部分也同步協助中小企業升級轉型對不對這是剛剛講是核心的產業核心產業之外我們在基礎的民間各行各業會利用這些科技產業來協助他們發展這也是重點好謝謝請主委繼續努力"},{"start":12174.525,"end":12199.227,"text":"那針對臺灣的人工智慧島 主委有很明確的KPI給定出來了那包括我們前面提到的但是今年 這半導體領域當然臺灣一直是翹楚 這就先不提那臺灣 但是今年增加了軍工產業的發展那我想請問 這個工作指標 那主委是打算怎麼來設定我們的所謂的那個目標呢"},{"start":12199.747,"end":12227.643,"text":"那因為前面還有所謂的可以進到所謂實名內那請問你怎麼樣去設定新的目標把軍工產業軍事能力來到排名全球排名第10嗎有這個目標嗎這一部分現在還沒有特定的這個指標因為我們在起步當中那現在我們發展的重點就是要透過跟美國的合作因為在系統的規格上面我們還不熟悉譬如說我們最近經濟部跟國防部一起做的"},{"start":12228.203,"end":12229.404,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12247.958,"end":12248.518,"text":"蔡英文總統就揭示說要打造無人機國家隊"},{"start":12275.972,"end":12298.862,"text":"顯然這個目標可能還有很多路要走在您的那裡繼續努力那我這樣講全球知名的軍事網站全球火力他公布2024年軍力排名台灣位居24較去年下滑一個名次所以我覺得這其實也是一個可以參考的一個指標那有明確的計畫跟目標所以立法院才能夠本於職權來審定預算但是"},{"start":12300.703,"end":12322.983,"text":"其實我到目前我覺得可能主委可能針對軍工這一塊因為我看我們賴總統非常重視這一塊所以這一塊既然做一個很新的一個目標的話我覺得應該還是要有更加量化的一個指標能夠讓國人來參考好嗎這個我們跟經濟部來一起討論因為這個是經濟部在主政是好那就麻煩主委繼續努力好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":12328.885,"end":12333.732,"text":"好謝謝羅志祥委員那接下來我們有請陳冠廷委員質詢你好我們請主委有請吳主委"},{"start":12348.682,"end":12373.604,"text":"陳委員好主委好主委台灣不是國際電信聯盟成員會不會影響我國的太空發展到目前為止還沒有這個問題因為我們過去從最早期的類比通訊到2G 3G 4G到現在5G我們其實都有實質的參與在標準的這個制定的過程當中去了解我們也有一些部分的一些貢獻對通訊衛星使用的無限級微波的頻寬是為了避免訊號干擾"},{"start":12375.345,"end":12389.381,"text":"ITU根據國際電電組織法第4條會主責協助全球無線電的這個頻率分配跟跨國頻率協調如果說台灣被排除在國際體制之外要怎麼樣保障我們發展6G次世代的通信的權益"},{"start":12390.302,"end":12412.197,"text":"此的意思是說ITU跟台灣爭取參與WHO UN IKL一樣各種國際組織一樣都沒有必要性反正透過外圍或者是透過合作的方式或者是用中華電信與新加坡的合作模式或者用科研用的可行為科學研究及實驗之特殊保留評斷就可以解決我們不需要實質參與我們不需要進入這樣子的ITU"},{"start":12413.138,"end":12438.252,"text":"其實不需要直接進入啦其實我們長期以來ITU的任何的活動我們透過我們的法人機構以及產業界都有實質的參與所以我們也不需要參與UN也不需要參與WHA只要透過其他的合作就能夠達成實質參與的目的我們是在不得已的狀況之下我們是在不得已的狀況之下但是商用的低軌衛星因為需要使用專攻商用排除他人的安老的頻寬"},{"start":12439.472,"end":12459.711,"text":"還是必須要透過ITU與其他國家進行這個協調交涉才能夠完成使用登記嗎是現在的這個於縣政府主任也在2021年受訪的時候他有表達說台灣以往參與的經驗可能沒有辦法複製在通訊衛星的頻寬協調上面所以我想請教主委在這樣子的狀況之下台灣"},{"start":12460.652,"end":12476.57,"text":"在發展6G通訊衛星怎麼樣可以透過合作的模式來去達成我們想要達到的實質參與這樣的困境我們該怎麼處理是我們現在在策略上就是會跟美國日本合作那跟美國日本合作因為我們自己也沒有相關的經驗"},{"start":12477.771,"end":12477.911,"text":"徐副委員"},{"start":12499.597,"end":12514.546,"text":"但是我還是要再講一件事情就是說當我問這個問題的時候你回答不會的話其實對我們未來參與外交的國際組織是有傷害的我們要盡我們所有的能力去參與我們不僅僅要實質參與我們要能夠加入這樣子的這種國際聯盟相關的組織我們不能夠放棄所以當你說"},{"start":12520.899,"end":12550.291,"text":"不會,不會影響的話其實是有點影響的謝謝委員提醒的的確但是我本意不是說都沒有問題我們沒有在質疑你的善意我只是說以後我們的延遲上面大概是要注意一下好謝謝謝謝沒有什麼對或錯因為台灣的現在的國際環境處境之下我們本來就是會遇到這樣的困難就是說用這個限制我們還是很努力要謝謝主要就是要向你表達這件事情以後被問到類似的狀況的時候千萬不要說不會沒有影響"},{"start":12552.632,"end":12568.302,"text":"主委除了評普分費之外還有一個部分就是火箭發射的部分我們不是ITU的成員所以我們無法在發射火箭前來去送交提前公佈資料或者是協調請求書給ITU那這樣的狀況之下我們要如何確保我們能夠推動入軌火箭計畫的登記順利進行"},{"start":12574.437,"end":12588.512,"text":"的確就是因為有這個困難所以我們才需要跟美國來合作那也希望說這種合作逐步會讓台灣有機會只要我們做得好的話將來有機會突破這個困境也許就可以直接加入這個國際組織"},{"start":12590.334,"end":12610.12,"text":"最後主委我還是再提到就是說我們現在1999年到現在發射的22顆衛星在聯合國系統是被標註成台灣Providence of China這個部分所以我剛剛一直在強調就是說我們必須要把這個態度做出來因為不能夠就是說沒有辦法我們就不去做嘗試好謝謝陳委員好謝謝"},{"start":12613.961,"end":12640.948,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來我們有請何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員不在蔡易宇委員 蔡易宇委員 蔡易宇委員不在高靖素美委員 高靖素美委員 高靖素美委員不在林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在蘇巧慧委員 蘇巧慧委員 蘇巧慧委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":12641.508,"end":12655.681,"text":"邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員不在報告委員會今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有張家俊委員 邱志偉委員提出書面質詢"},{"start":12657.362,"end":12678.152,"text":"關於今天會議我們做成如下的決定報告及詢談完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關金官盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":12682.312,"end":12696.425,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":12713.447,"end":12714.229,"text":"委員會委員會主席"},{"start":12730.894,"end":12731.814,"text":"委員會主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:21 - 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個協會那可能我要書裡面把你們對於聽障師的這樣一個數量跟是不是足夠來處理這一塊年齡的這個人可以給我一些很具體的一個回應好不好對那這樣我們就能夠很很清楚的具體的來處理跟解決這樣一個問題好嗎好謝謝謝謝署長"},{"start":356.305,"end":358.012,"text":"謝謝!"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:36:04 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博帝發言原續剛剛張家俊張委員很重要對農民的公糧這個收購我先提醒一個非常重要的原則第一個 面對農民是要照顧的 是要幫忙的不要站在農民的對立面 而且你不要高高在上公糧收購裡面還牽扯到一個很重要的問題這是立法院表決通過的 請你要尊重法治 好不好"},{"start":58.356,"end":79.915,"text":"我再提醒一次不要站在農民的對立面而且不要高高在上而且請你尊重法治你剛剛講的意思好像是只有你一個人對剛剛提了啊這是立法院通過的啊你本來就應該要編啊好不好你再回想一下這個事情我跟你講這幾天還會再協調嘛對不對是 首席院長跟這個"},{"start":82.083,"end":102.862,"text":"行政院跟立法院會協調我希望不要卡在你一個人身上昨天財政部長跟主計長來他們也說尊重農業部的這個決定我希望你好好再想一下農民現在是生計的問題十三年沒有條了你就說啊你找這裡就不夠你要拔光現在是他們溫飽的問題好不好你要去實驗"},{"start":104.495,"end":114.496,"text":"這個絕對不是實驗喔 這個絕對不是實驗你五塊錢加了 美工機五塊錢加了你先去執行看你的理想能不能達得到可是農民很清楚講 你的貢獻我才聽不到啦"},{"start":116.332,"end":116.912,"text":"很簡單的喔很簡單的喔"},{"start":137.469,"end":164.116,"text":"就做阿 並行去做阿好不好 這個事情我講到這邊反正 等著回去解決問題沒有沒有 來 我要問比較重要的事情那個北檢北檢已經約談了去搜索了農業部嘛 對不對中央續產會這個超級不可思議的超思案北檢說不排除要約談陳其中跟林松賢我定你也是被告之一嘛 對不對"},{"start":165.752,"end":180.235,"text":"你被約談了沒有我是看到媒體說我是被告我是看到媒體我沒有接到任何的訊息我也沒有被約談古尼古尼是很多人去安寧申告當然最主要他們認為要找決策者嘛所以最主要控告對象"},{"start":182.111,"end":198.287,"text":"陳其仲、林松賢你也被列在裡面你說到目前為止沒有約談過你嗎?沒有沒有約談那重點就是啊人民要的很簡單嘛就兩個嘛一個真相嘛一個就是責任嘛所以才會有所謂的別簡要找出這個決策者那決策者是誰?"},{"start":198.968,"end":215.089,"text":"我想檢調單位在相關的雞蛋的部分已經在做專案調查而且是我們主動移情檢調單位來調查的那我們也相信檢調單位的公平跟他的司法的一個公平性所以我們也希望檢調能夠盡速的能夠釐清相關的案情"},{"start":216.746,"end":219.429,"text":"我沒有說大家一起做決策我是說當時在雞蛋價格民間的價格國內的價格在迅速攀升的過程中"},{"start":234.912,"end":261.808,"text":"全世界的侵入感發到大爆發的過程中必須要做一些緊急的進口那緊急的進口裡面相關的這些討論大家都有一些討論跟參與那最後的決策你現在講的話到時候北檢約你去你都要再講一次你要很注意好不好我現在提醒的是什麼現在人民不滿了人民要的真相是什麼為什麼是一個50萬資本額的超市那誰做決策讓他承包這麼大的生意啊"},{"start":262.728,"end":285.602,"text":"你不覺得差不可思議嗎?我相信不是你做決策嘛!所以人民才在問啊!北檢才要查啊!這個沒有陳其中、林聰賢誰能夠做這個決策?阿你們在政府機關?你有公文啊?誰做這個覺醒了?誰把這個生意交給了超私?這是什麼?白紙黑字啊!那為什麼合約都沒簽?當地議領理委不是在問嗎?"},{"start":287.239,"end":300.05,"text":"超支誕生的時間是前年的9月這個備委的凱希凱希你們就開始要讓他進蛋了誰敢做這個決策我相信不是你嘛那比你大的是誰所以現在出現說要約談嘛"},{"start":303.058,"end":319.008,"text":"所以檢調單位正在調查所以我想委員是不是可以讓這個議題由檢調單位來查因為相關的委員要資料的時候讓我們的畜牧師就是疲於奔命在整理這些資料那畜牧師有非常多的工作要去做"},{"start":320.196,"end":336.512,"text":"好啦對當然勿妄勿重啦我現在只要提醒你人民就是要真相對不對然後別檢現在趕快約談相關的人現在你自己不要檢進去你所謂的一起沒有包括你現在人民要的是說那麼離譜的狀況是誰做的決策包括錢搬出去啊公文上面不用蓋章嗎"},{"start":338.482,"end":364.367,"text":"這個公文都要調嘛 調公文嘛 約該約的人嘛 這個會有真相的啦好不好 我們看北檢的速度在加快 我們現在只要問監察院也做了糾正案了 北檢開始約談了 農業部也要有一些動作 自己要有一些檢討我們真的糾正案 我們已經有內部的一個檢討的新的作為出來我另外問你一個重要的事情你答應我的事情 六月二月六十八我總質詢的時候"},{"start":367.301,"end":388.781,"text":"左院長跟你對本席做了承諾也是對立法院的承諾那時候五月份的時候你們把以前即將到期的液氮倒出來那時候要倒多少2200多萬顆我在立法院的院會裡面清清楚楚問你跟院長左院長跟你是跟我保證的喔"},{"start":391.192,"end":400.563,"text":"馬上終止對不對後續還有停下來的還有的停下來不要倒彈結果你為什麼你們在議員會做的這個決定你為什麼在8月27號你繼續倒彈勒"},{"start":404.987,"end":427.988,"text":"我想可能委員誤會當時在質詢的時候那時候委員特別提到當時的單價國內的單價已經這麼低了不希望說續產會在國內的單價這麼低的過程中持續的把過去的庫存蛋釋出那我們也同意說在這個階段我們暫停把這些庫存蛋釋出部長我有一段話跟你聽"},{"start":431.505,"end":445.162,"text":"陳部長這樣回答說如果國內的彈供應市場的需求是夠的話我們就不會釋出主委長講得更清楚啊民生為重不要破壞了產需的這個平衡要照顧到我們的彈籠所以他當場"},{"start":446.423,"end":452.747,"text":"一方面你是打臉的周榮泰我跟你講一方面你為什麼要做這個事情那時候產地價的這個美台金是27.5對不對你知道你到這個8月份的時候價格往下掉欸26.5欸"},{"start":470.885,"end":496.772,"text":"你這不是顧一個破壞的產銷這個平衡你是完全不顧彈籠這個生死嗎我想喔 基本上我們這些加工彈的部分會在彈價回升的時候適度的去釋出現在有回升嗎沒有 現在就掉了 問題發生 部長 部長第一個有白紙黑字 第二個清清楚楚現在還是在掉的這個狀況之下你倒彈已經不對了 好 這是一個問題"},{"start":498.612,"end":506.148,"text":"你不只打你的行政院長我跟你講這個事情你要給我一個清楚講甚至已經藐視國會了你答應的事情為什麼沒有這樣做第二個在牽扯到食安的問題"},{"start":507.708,"end":531.704,"text":"你說不能,為什麼我要講第三點?我說要你回去清查一下你的蛋有沒有過期,對不對?你清查了嗎?清啊清查了?清啊那現在有多少蛋是過期的?現在庫存裡面總共有1148萬顆裡面還有1140多萬顆?對,然後其中齁,就是最慢的蛋粉,因為我上次也說了加工蛋有不同的蛋粉的話可以到那個2025年的9月14才到期"},{"start":535.35,"end":535.49,"text":"報告委員：張啓楷"},{"start":552.541,"end":552.982,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":568.291,"end":591.625,"text":"你認為他沒有問題嗎?對不對?我想我們不必要用這樣的方式去贊成明確心安我想整個雞蛋變成加工蛋的時候有一定的規範這個規範就是食藥署都跟你講就是一年阿你要推翻食藥署的講法要推翻你之前中央市長會講法你怎麼要贊成明確心安?你要怎麼除了這個方法你有什麼方法?部長你怎麼贊成明確心安?"},{"start":592.245,"end":596.553,"text":"發言委員發言時間到稍後兩分鐘了我們可以請10號組來決定好 謝謝 發言時間到那你要怎麼解決 部長不要搞怪 不要搞怪這個問題 什麼讓人民可以心安"},{"start":606.525,"end":634.47,"text":"發言時間已經到了已經超過三分鐘了已經超過三分鐘了我們在監督政府而且牽扯到人民的食安為什麼如果你每次都會沒有馬上好那個主席就是一個答案嘛我說四次會一個禮拜內辦那你不辦你的方法是什麼嘛你的方法是什麼我們可以把我們現在庫存的這些標示跟他的貴格品由食藥組來確認是不是符合他的規範那你公佈給大家看好不好一個禮拜內公佈可以嗎部長"},{"start":636.328,"end":644.064,"text":"我們要聯絡食藥署來確認嘛現在台北市都在查了嘛你們盡快公布一個禮拜內公布"},{"start":648.117,"end":651.079,"text":"我做主席要維持會議的公平性跟會議能夠順利進行"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:07:43 - 10:18:50","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155283","gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時7分）請陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先延續剛剛張嘉郡委員提到很重要的對農民公糧收購的問題，我先提醒你一個非常重要的原則，第一個，面對農民是要照顧的，是要幫忙的，不要站在農民的對立面，而且你不要高高在上，公糧收購還牽扯到一個很重要的問題，這是立法院表決通過的，請你要尊重法制，好不好？我再提醒一次，不要站在農民的對立面，而且不要高高在上，而且請你尊重法制。你剛剛講的意思好像是只有你一個人對，剛剛提了，這是立法院通過的，你本來就應該要編。你再回想一下，這個事情這幾天還會再協調，行政院跟立法院會協調，我希望不要卡在你一個人身上，昨天財政部長跟主計長來，他們也說尊重農業部的決定，我希望你好好再想一下，農民現在是生計的問題，13年沒有調了，他們就說了，生吃都不夠了，要怎麼曬乾？現在是他們溫飽的問題，好不好？你要去實驗，你做你的1集、2轉、3加3沒有關係……"],["陳部長駿季：這個絕對不是實驗。"],["張委員啓楷：你並行，每公斤5塊錢加了，你再去執行，看你的理想能不能達得到，可是農民很清楚講，你說這些我們聽不懂啦！我都已經餓成這樣子，13年沒調了，物價漲那麼多，你為什麼不幫農民多想一想呢？你要實驗，你做你的嘛！你就雙軌做，你先調高5塊錢，就像嘉郡講的，你那麼有理想，每公斤5塊錢調了，你的1集、2轉、3加3，農民願意接受的就做，並行去做，好不好？這個事情我講到這邊，反正等著回去解決問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以再回答一下？"],["張委員啓楷：不，我要問比較重要的事情。北檢已經去搜索農業部、中央畜產會，對不對？這個超級不可思議的超思案，北檢說不排除要約談陳吉仲跟林聰賢，部長也是被告之一，對不對？你被約談了沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我是看到媒體說我是被告。我是看到媒體，我沒有接到任何的訊息，也沒有被約談。"],["張委員啓楷：去年很多人去按鈴申告，最主要是他們認為要找決策者，所以最主要的控告對象是陳吉仲跟林聰賢，你也被列在裡面，但你說到目前為止沒有約談過你，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：重點是人民要的很簡單，就兩個，一個真相，一個就是責任，所以才會有所謂的北檢要找出這個決策者，決策者是誰？"],["陳部長駿季：檢調單位在雞蛋相關的部分已經在做專案調查，而且是我們主動移請檢調單位來調查的。我們相信檢調單位的公平跟司法的公平性，所以我們也希望檢調能夠儘速釐清相關的案情。"],["張委員啓楷：對，現在最重要的是決策，你早上說是大家一起決策？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！"],["張委員啓楷：你有跟著一起決策嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有說大家一起決策，我是說當時雞蛋價格在國內民間迅速攀升的過程中，以及全世界禽流感大爆發的過程中，必須要緊急進口，而緊急進口相關的這些討論，大家都有一些參與。最後的決策是……"],["張委員啓楷：部長現在講的話，到時候北檢約你去，都要再講一次，你要很注意，好不好？我現在提醒的是什麼？現在人民不滿，人民要的真相是什麼？為什麼是一個五十萬資本額的超思？誰決策讓他承包這麼大的生意？你不覺得超不可思議嗎？我相信不是你決策的，所以人民才會問，北檢才要查，沒有陳吉仲、林聰賢，誰能夠做這個決策？政府機關有公文，是誰決行的？誰把這個生意交給了超思？是不是有白紙黑字？為什麼合約都沒簽？剛剛呂玉玲委員不是在問嗎？超思誕生的時間是前年9月，結果8月你們就開始要讓他進蛋了，誰敢做這個決策？我相信不是你，比你大的是誰？所以現在要約談，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：檢調單位正在調查，是不是可以讓這個議題由檢調單位來查？因為委員要資料，讓畜牧司疲於奔命在整理這些資料，但畜牧司有非常多的工作要去做。"],["張委員啓楷：好，當然勿枉勿縱。我只是在提醒你，人民就是要真相，北檢現在趕快約談相關的人，像你自己不要捲進去，你所謂的一起，應該沒有包括你。現在人民要知道的是，那麼離譜的狀況是誰做的決策？包括把錢搬出去，公文上面不用蓋章嗎？這個公文都要調，調公文、約該約的人，這個會有真相的，好不好？我們看北檢的速度在加快，我現在只是在問。監察院也做了糾正案，北檢開始約談了，農業部也要有一些動作，自己要去檢討。接下來我問你……"],["陳部長駿季：針對糾正案，我們內部已經有檢討新的作為出來。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。我另外問你一件重要的事情，是你答應我的事情，6月28號我總質詢的時候，卓院長跟你對本席承諾，也是對立法院承諾，5月份你們把即將到期的液蛋倒出來，那時候倒多少？兩千兩百多萬顆！我在立法院院會裡面清清楚楚問你跟院長，卓院長跟你向我保證，第一個，馬上終止，後續還有的停下來、不要倒蛋。結果你們在院會做這個決定，為什麼在8月27號還繼續倒蛋呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想可能是委員誤會，那時候質詢委員特別提到，當時國內的蛋價已經這麼低了，不希望畜產會在國內蛋價這麼低的過程中，持續把過去的庫存蛋釋出，我們也同意在這個階段，暫停把這些庫存蛋釋出。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我唸一段話給你聽，陳部長回答：如果國內蛋的需求市場供應夠的話，我們就不會釋出。卓院長講得更清楚：民生為重，不要破壞了產需的平衡，要照顧到蛋農。所以不只是兩千兩百多萬顆停下來，他當場說後續還有的，全部不能賣。"],["陳部長駿季：他沒這樣講吧？"],["張委員啓楷：我調公報給你看，公報都是白紙黑字。現在一方面，你是打臉了卓榮泰。另一方面，你為什麼要做這個事情？當初我問產地價每臺斤是27.5，你知道到8月份價格往下掉，變26.5耶！這不是破壞了產銷的平衡，你是完全不顧蛋農生死嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，這些加工蛋會在蛋價回升的時候適度釋出。"],["張委員啓楷：現在有回升嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們之前……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，第一個，有白紙黑字，第二個，清清楚楚，現在還是在掉價的狀況之下，你去倒蛋就已經不對了。好，這是一個問題。你不只打臉了行政院長，這個事情你要給我一個清楚的交代，這甚至已經是藐視國會了！你答應的事情為什麼沒有這樣做？第二個、這還牽扯到食安的問題，你說為什麼要講第三點？我說要你回去清查一下蛋有沒有過期，你清查了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：清了。"],["張委員啓楷：清查了，那現在有多少蛋是過期的？"],["陳部長駿季：現在庫存裡面總共有1,148萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：還有一千一百四十多萬顆？"],["陳部長駿季：對，其中最慢的蛋粉……因為我上次也說了，加工蛋有不同的期限，蛋粉2025年9月14日才到期。"],["張委員啓楷：有蛋粉、有滷蛋、茶葉蛋……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！我做個總結。"],["主席：發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我上次就給你看過了……"],["主席：張委員，鄭委員在後面等……"],["張委員啓楷：包括中央畜產會的產品，你們的有效期限是一年，連衛福部食藥署都講最多是一年。"],["主席：謝謝，發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在硬要把它拗成是兩年或者一年半，你對社會要公平。"],["主席：張委員，鄭委員在這邊等……"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們做兩件事情，一週內你辦一個試吃會，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你率領所有的首長，包括中央畜產會，當場吃給大家看。"],["主席：好，謝謝。質詢時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你可以這樣保證嗎？部長，你認為它沒有問題，對不對？"],["主席：張委員，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我們不必要用這樣的方式去證明它的食品安全。"],["張委員啓楷：那你要用什麼方式讓人民可以心安？"],["主席：鄭正鈐委員……"],["陳部長駿季：雞蛋變成加工蛋有一定的規範。"],["主席：好，謝謝，發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：這個規範食藥署都跟你講就是一年。"],["主席：張委員發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你要推翻食藥署的講法，要推翻之前中央畜產會的講法，怎麼樣讓人民可以心安？"],["主席：好，謝謝張委員。"],["陳部長駿季：它是根據不同的製程。"],["張委員啓楷：除了這個方法，你有什麼方法？部長，你怎麼讓人民心安？"],["主席：張委員，發言時間到。你超過兩分鐘了！"],["張委員啓楷：辦一個試吃會保證，一個禮拜內辦，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以請食藥署來確認。"],["張委員啓楷：你率所有的首長，包括中央畜產會的官員來吃。"],["主席：好，謝謝。發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你要怎麼解決？部長要怎麼解決這個問題？怎麼讓人民可以心安？"],["主席：發言時間已經到了，你超過3分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：給一個答案就好。"],["主席：已經超過3分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！我在監督政府，而且牽扯到人民的食安，為什麼……"],["主席：如果你每次都……每一個人都沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，馬上好。就是一個答案，我說試吃會一個禮拜內辦，但你不辦，你的方法是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以把我們現在庫存的這些標示跟它的規格品，由食藥署來確認是不是符合規範。"],["主席：張委員，你發言時間超過4分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那你公布給大家看，好不好？一個禮拜內公布，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們要聯絡食藥署來確認。"],["張委員啓楷：現在臺北市衛生局都在查了，你們儘快公布，好不好？"],["主席：請回座。"],["張委員啓楷：儘快公布，一個禮拜內公布。"],["主席：張委員，大家都在等，我做主席要維持會議的公平性，讓會議能夠順利進行，大家都這樣，就講不完了。"],["張委員啓楷：以前的主席都有給更多時間。"],["主席：不是，我說6+2就6+2，一視同仁。"],["張委員啓楷：就是要個答案……"],["主席：不然下次你來當主席。"],["張委員啓楷：好，有機會我來當，謝謝。"],["主席：我看是沒機會。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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️"},{"start":273.536,"end":273.616,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":302.092,"end":322.621,"text":"當然這些已經進入司法調查我們就不講我們要我們要省事的是什麼就是這個第一件事事情發生的時候為什麼沒有辦法在急診室足夠的來去想像他是不是中毒事件是非常困難嗎因為我有問過急診醫師急診室的醫生說他是其實他的味道其實是不是那麼好聞"},{"start":323.881,"end":350.379,"text":"雖然它是無色的可是它在包裝上面有點像是我們的紅藜然後後來它的味道吃起來應該是有一些味道而且送到院它的那些anti cholinergic的那些side effect不是很明顯嗎就是那些我們知道的醫療的醫學的術語那這些難道在在history上面或是在它的編譯上面沒有沒有記載這些東西嗎你們是不是要去看一下"},{"start":351.039,"end":360.445,"text":"不然現在鄉親已經要組成自救會因為他們投訴無門求償無門也沒有人可以賠償他們這些生命的損失你不覺得非常的可憐嗎"},{"start":362.839,"end":389.761,"text":"是我們真的是為這件事情也感到非常的遺憾跟難過啦齁那我記得如果是我們這種年齡啦像我跟蘇昭瑋這種年齡齁在接近的時候齁只要有那個人有有有是農民啦齁然後好像中毒的趕快我們就趕快戴兩層殼那個手套啦不然那個巴拉圭那個不是開玩笑的齁那所以是不是說我們"},{"start":390.822,"end":415.565,"text":"或花生的比例越來越少之下,急診的醫師在這個部分的防患性稍微需要再加強。這個我覺得我們要整體系統性的來檢討。球場的部分我想我們會相關的部會一定要給最大的支持,尤其在社會社工這個部分。"},{"start":416.266,"end":442.451,"text":"我們看一下他們的事情發生的地方在濱茂我們看一下相對位置京豐鄉是大概在台東的稍微南方一點再過去到馬街的話要42分鐘左右這是一般開車可是那天晚上發生的時候應該是十幾個人要送急診室嘛所以急診室的那些我們關掉救護車也不夠所以很多都是用私家車送的因為有"},{"start":443.831,"end":470.282,"text":" ️"},{"start":470.362,"end":499.074,"text":"那個牡丹鄉那為什麼會做這樣的一個規定就是因為他是個完全沒有其他醫療資源的地方所以衛福部這邊應該也要盤去盤點說這那麼遠的地方的衛生所是不是應該要比照我們屏東這兩個衛生所的一個經營模式至少你要24小時也要有急診的一個概念然後呢你看所有的衛生室衛生所全部都打烊了那個時間點根本就找不到人"},{"start":499.554,"end":511.456,"text":"所以你只能就是天天由命那你說你要發展花棟的觀光這些都沒有的話你要怎麼去發展一個救命的東西都沒有"},{"start":513.1,"end":530.131,"text":"你可以體會那個晚上,那天晚上所有的族人擔心跟焦急的那種狀況嗎?他們是用自己的車子在,尤其是明天要出殯的,高增制的我們全國國大代表的夫人是明天要出殯,禮拜六要出殯,他是最後一個死亡,第4件。"},{"start":530.939,"end":548.831,"text":"也就是他是從立秋的家裡載送到那個我們馬街是用自己的車子載的你也知道自己的車子一定沒有什麼氧氣也沒有什麼急救啊只能就是眼睜睜的看著他到醫院然後其實他已經可能已經很多時間已經是腦死的已經是缺氧的狀態了"},{"start":550.051,"end":575.649,"text":"所以才為什麼到現在是就就是包括我們政府其實一直在推展從幾十年前到最近幾年更是更多的來經會來投入強化偏鄉的醫療是目前我看到的急救站實際上的一個狀況這樣子的話我們應該看怎麼樣來改善是啊你至少每10公里每20公里是不是在急救站現在是只有大午嘛大午衛生所嘛"},{"start":576.509,"end":577.97,"text":"我帶過台大醫學院的學生到萬山鄉上面的部落"},{"start":595.805,"end":616.264,"text":"那個時候我們就發現那個地方衛生所是需要一些蛇毒血清的,因為常常會有,所以我們就加強,那個冰箱一定要冰凉。我們再看一下家屬的心聲,他們打電話跟我說,就是說就是剛才我講的一般死亡案件處理,然後就待會兒就報請下院,就很像這件事情就結束了。"},{"start":616.724,"end":643.413,"text":"第二個就是說就是他們認為如果這個第一個是重頭的話後面這12個人就不會不信好最後一個我在去納瑪夏的時候納瑪夏跟我說納瑪夏衛生所以前是在部落的最前面就是民主民權民生最前面在民主八八風災以後衛生所不見了結果重建了以後好不容易重建這麼漂亮的衛生所它的位置在哪裡你知道嗎在部落的上面的非常上面"},{"start":645.146,"end":646.047,"text":"這樣的衛生水你覺得適合蓋在原鄉地區嗎?"},{"start":657.415,"end":657.435,"text":"閱讀者﹗"},{"start":687.415,"end":706.067,"text":"﹗"},{"start":706.067,"end":719.189,"text":"謝謝!"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:05:55 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10:17:54","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155282","gazette":{"lineno":303,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時6分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好。放假期間我去了復興區，復興區是最靠近都會區的一個原鄉，還有烏來，為什麼我會提到復興呢？因為我去復興的時候，大概看一下地理環境，它雖然很靠近桃園或者是新北，不過它比較後段的部分是靠近宜蘭，你知道復興區有多少個部落嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我不知道。"],["盧委員縣一：58個部落，58個部落分布在這麼遼闊的地方，而衛生所所在位置就比較靠近大溪，就是比較靠近平地的地方，所有族人依賴的醫療環境就是在所謂的衛生所，大概原鄉也都是這樣。我去了那邊以後，他們跟我提到，如果想要生小孩、要做產檢的話，勢必要包車一、兩個小時以後才到市區。因為我們整個國家的IDS計畫，常常就是需要的科別沒有，希望有的科別就說可能再研究，永遠都是在這樣的環境之下等待，所以當我去的時候，主席跟我講說能不能在他們的科別裡面增設婦產科，也就是他們IDS的計畫裡面是不是至少一個禮拜有一次，或者補足衛生所的一些超音波，不然在山上要生小孩、要懷孕，要背負很大的成本。我們今天已經談到人工生殖，在山上的條件還是連懷孕都不敢懷孕的條件之下，你們是不是應該想辦法，IDS至少一個禮拜要有一次婦產科的科別，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們來跟長庚醫院協調。"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是不是只有復興區，全國的原住民地區應該都是這樣，像我之前在的地方也沒有婦產科醫師來，當然因為我在的地方比較近，我是在春日比較靠近枋寮，我們要盤點的是這些比較遠的地方，像復興區、阿里山鄉、卓溪，離市區至少要一個小時以上距離的這些鄉鎮，而且只有衛生所可以提供醫療幫忙，這部分是不是要盤點？提供他們相關的一些超音波設備，我們的孕婦才敢在部落生小孩，不然全部的人都搬到都市，然後都市的生活條件又不好，是不是幫他們想辦法一下，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為我當過衛生所主任，當時我去臺北縣金山鄉的時候沒有任何醫師，最近發生水災……"],["盧委員縣一：對，我的意思是，因為……"],["邱部長泰源：所以我非常了解衛生所……"],["盧委員縣一：你到過基層，所以請幫他們想辦法，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：很需要加強戰備，尤其在偏遠地區，它就是負擔醫療的責任，當然有兩個方案，第一個，IDS就是想要縮短偏鄉跟都市的差距，怎麼樣充分提供資源，我想這個一定要努力。"],["盧委員縣一：對啦！"],["邱部長泰源：第二個，應該要訓練更多可以做全科的醫師去做更多的事情，包括重建……"],["盧委員縣一：對，婦產科醫師、小兒科醫師都很重要。"],["邱部長泰源：因為你完全要靠……有些譬如產檢或者是比較正常、比較平順的懷孕過程，其實受訓良好的家庭醫師也可以做大部分的工作。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：如果必要的話，我們再做最好的專責……"],["盧委員縣一：好，我們時間有限，我知道、我相信部長也能夠體會。","接下來就是我去了臺東金峰，因為這段期間剛好是中秋節以後，也快一個月了，大家在院會裡面都沒有討論到金峰發生的事情。比較可悲的是，中秋節晚上發生了這件事情，也就是比較年長的第一位死亡者，他發生事情的時候大概是晚上八、九點的時間，送到醫院，急診室的判定是他已經死亡了，在詢問以後可能就當做是一般的疾病處理，開了一個乙種診斷書，讓他回去報請相驗，回到家了以後，原住民的習慣就是要去慰喪，剛好是中秋節晚上，大家全部都回來了，左鄰右舍、鄰近的族人都過來，剩下的到最後已經超過晚上12點，大家可能肚子餓了想要熱點東西，又煮了他之前吃的這些東西，所以才會造成一連串的事件，當然這些已經進入司法調查，我們就不講，我們要省思的是什麼？就是第一件事情發生的時候，為什麼沒有辦法在急診室足夠的去想像他是不是中毒事件，這是非常困難嗎？因為我有問過急診室的醫生，他說它的味道其實不是那麼好聞，雖然它是無色的，可是它在包裝上面有點像是我們的紅藜，吃起來應該是有一些味道，而且送到醫院，他的anticholinergics的side effects不是很明顯嗎？就是那些我們知道的醫學術語，難道在他的history上面，或是在他的病歷上面沒有記載這些東西嗎？你們是不是要去看一下？不然現在鄉親已經要組成自救會，因為他們投訴無門、求償無門，也沒有人可以賠償他們這些生命的損失，你不覺得非常的可憐嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們真的為這件事情也感到非常地遺憾跟難過，如果是我們這種年齡，像我跟蘇召委這種年齡，在急診的時候，只要那個人是農民，然後好像有中毒的狀況，我們就趕快戴兩層手套，不然那個巴拉刈不是開玩笑的，所以是不是我們在發生的比例越來越少之下，急診醫師在這個部分的防範性稍微需要再加強，我覺得我們要整體系統性的來檢討。"],["盧委員縣一：如果到最後真的是求償無門，衛福部這邊有沒有一些……"],["邱部長泰源：在求償的部分，我想我們相關的部會一定要給予最大的支持……"],["盧委員縣一：來救濟，OK。"],["邱部長泰源：尤其是在社工這個部分。"],["盧委員縣一：事情發生的地方是在賓茂，我們看一下相對位置，金峰鄉大概是在臺東稍微南方一點，過去到馬偕要42分鐘左右，這是一般開車，可是那天晚上發生的時候，應該是十幾個人要送急診室，光是叫救護車也不夠，所以很多都是用私家車送的，因為過兩天要出殯的是住在歷坵，這又是在更裡面一點，所以我要講的就是我們在那個地方真的是非常地辛苦。","我們盤點那邊的醫療資源，全部都是正常上下班啦！沒有晚上上班的，更不用說假日了，那天剛好是中秋節晚上，在屏東我們有兩個鄉是24小時營業的，就是霧台鄉跟牡丹鄉，那個是我自己的原住民鄉，為什麼會做這樣的一個規定？就是因為它是個完全沒有其他醫療資源的地方，所以衛福部應該也要去盤點，在那麼遠的地方，衛生所是不是應該要比照屏東這兩個衛生所的經營模式，至少你要24小時營業，也要有急診的一個概念，然後你看所有的衛生室、衛生所全部都打烊了，那個時間點根本就找不到人，所以你只能聽天由命。那你說要發展花東的觀光，這些都沒有的話，你要怎麼去發展？連一個救命的東西都沒有，你可以體會那天晚上所有族人擔心跟焦急的那種狀況嗎？他們是用自己的車子載，尤其明天禮拜六要出殯的是我們前國大代表高正治的夫人，他是第四件，是最後一個死亡的，也就是他從歷坵的家裡用自己的車子載送到馬偕，你也知道自己的車子一定沒有什麼氧氣，也沒有什麼急救，只能眼睜睜地看著他到醫院，其實可能過了很多時間，已經是缺氧的狀態了，所以才死亡嘛……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們政府其實一直在推展，從幾十年前到最近幾年更是投入更多的經費來強化偏鄉醫療……"],["盧委員縣一：是，目前我看到的急救站只有……"],["邱部長泰源：如果實際上有這樣的狀況，我們應該看怎麼樣來改善，比如說我們做區域聯盟……"],["盧委員縣一：是啊！你至少每10公里、每20公里是不是應該要有一個急救站？現在是只有大武衛生所嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：對！"],["盧委員縣一：從大武衛生所以北，一直到臺東市，大概還有一個多小時的距離喔！就不要講更裡面的部落，所以我現在……"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得要加強衛生所的醫療急救能力，比如說我帶過臺大醫學院的學生到關山鄉上面的部落，那個時候我們就發現那個地方的衛生所是需要一些蛇毒血清的，因為常常會有……所以我們就加強在冰箱一定要冰有……"],["盧委員縣一：好。我們再看一下家屬的心聲，他們打電話跟我說，就是剛才我講的都是用一般死亡案件處理，然後就帶回、報請相驗，很像這件事情就結束了；第二個，他們認為如果第一位判斷是中毒的話，後面這12個人就不會發生不幸。","最後一個，我去那瑪夏的時候，那瑪夏跟我說，那瑪夏衛生所以前是在部落的最前面，就是民族、民權，民生，最前面的民族，八八風災以後衛生所不見了，結果重建了之後，好不容易重建這麼漂亮的衛生所，它的位置在哪裡你知道嗎？在部落的非常上面，電動車是上不去的，摩托車還需要專業技巧才可以上去，一般車子開車的話是不能會車的，這樣的衛生所你覺得適合蓋在原鄉地區嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：對於民眾的醫療accessible是非常重要的。"],["盧委員縣一：是啊！所以你要檢討一下那瑪夏區衛生所為什麼蓋在這裡，而那瑪夏區區長告訴我能不能再把它遷回到部落這裡，所以這個你可以做通盤地考量。"],["邱部長泰源：是！我們可以再加強爭取醫療……"],["盧委員縣一：我希望你能夠走訪一趟。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["盧委員縣一：因為那瑪夏區不僅是我們高雄最遠的地方，衛生所又蓋在部落裡面最遠的地方，你不覺得這是滑天下之大稽嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定去瞭解那裡整個的醫療資源，看如何再來加強。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：不過我也要感謝很多的醫院、很多的醫師，其實他們定期都到臺東、屏東那邊，貢獻非常多……"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，我同學都在這邊值班。"],["邱部長泰源：要非常感謝他們，也感謝在地很多的醫師長久在那邊的貢獻，對此我都充滿了感動，對於不夠的地方，我們衛福部一定協助來幫忙。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝部長，我們一起努力。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝盧委員。接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:12:12","end_time":"2024-10-09T10:17:48+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155281","委員名稱":"馬文君","duration":732,"start_time":"2024-10-09T10:05:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a35dea7f16af008d56947fb22ff9043c6f248570de51b9a939cea193b8358d2b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.87471875,"end":1.0434687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.14471875,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":71.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.54721875,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.61471875000001,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.08284375000001,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.44971875,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.67284375,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.57784375,"end":102.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.56909375000001,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.70596875000001,"end":112.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.58721875,"end":114.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.60409375,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.07221875,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.19034375000001,"end":114.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.57846875000001,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.50159375000001,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.69471875,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.40346875,"end":133.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.53784375,"end":132.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.68534375000002,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.50784375,"end":138.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.40596875,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.15221875,"end":143.78909375},{"s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這個部分因為為什麼我們要特別提出來我們在整體的總預算上面我們的金額不斷的增加而且甚至包括現在大家最詬病的就是媒體的宣傳費用其實它增"},{"start":470.836,"end":470.916,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":492.813,"end":493.173,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":508.686,"end":513.588,"text":"那接下來如果說有什麼樣進度也麻煩報告我們委員會那另外還要再特別提到的就是退府會他成立的目的他主要是照顧農民如果有很多的"},{"start":525.214,"end":525.554,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":544.525,"end":555.777,"text":"我們像現在我們看到施治老人的照顧我們現在在計劃當中有無所容加設立施治園區我們施治床增加了502床總床位將達到1145"},{"start":561.943,"end":583.23,"text":"這個佔全國老人福利機構施治老人床位6成以上就是由我們退府會其實會提供6成以上施治老人照顧的這樣子的床位那在相關的這個未來的照護人力會增加護理人員56人還有照服員441人人力需求經費會達到2億7千多萬我特別要提出來是"},{"start":588.391,"end":603.447,"text":"也有委員希望你們滾動式的調整為什麼說我們成立的目的是照顧農民因為你會入住農家有些一住可能5年10年甚至20年都有可能你現在看出來他可能還有空床"},{"start":604.028,"end":607.711,"text":"可是當他們需要的時候因為你現在榮民不是以前的那些老伯伯因為他們很多單身或者說他們就是需要這樣的照顧可是未來我們的社會趨勢可能像失智或者必須有接受長照這樣照顧的人數也會增加所以我們為什麼要有一定比例的一個床位的配比而不是你現在看到說他有空位"},{"start":630.069,"end":652.627,"text":"你就讓所有的人都可以進來那未來如果有榮民要住的時候你可以把現在的一般民眾把他趕出去嗎這個部分我們希望退府會還是要堅持我們現在我們設立的一個主要的目的剛剛我們還有提到的就是他人力的部分我們現在剛剛看到我們有一千多名的一些照護需求"},{"start":653.468,"end":654.909,"text":"對,我們研究現在又怎麼樣自顧"},{"start":671.058,"end":692.496,"text":"既然你已經有這麼多的床位應該要怎麼樣做一個更好更妥適的一個規劃安排我想這個可能還是要去床位跟委員報告我們會控制一定的比例現在目前最多的比例一般民眾區域是18%那其他大部分大概有八成以上還是照顧我們的人民都有控制一些成料"},{"start":692.956,"end":696.579,"text":"對 因為我們剛剛提到的是你們要滾動式的調整所以我不知道你的滾動叫什麼滾動可是你要把那個我們榮民他的比例降低呢還是你要怎麼樣我想這個必須要所以我們還是希望有一些部分"},{"start":708.647,"end":708.687,"text":"謝謝委員指導"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:05:36 - 10:17:48","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155281","gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時5分）謝謝主席，麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：主委好。主委，上個會期我們有提出幾個對退役軍人福利措施上的一些建議或者決議，本席想要瞭解一下目前推動的情形。其中大概有兩項比較大的，一個是有職業榮民就醫的醫療優惠部分，我看到今天的報告裡面有說明，現在正在修正國軍退除役官兵就醫辦法，凡領有榮民證者，到本會所屬醫療機構就醫，其健保自行負擔費用，由退輔會全額補助，現在陳報行政院核定後施行。我想要在這裡請教主委的是，這個優惠目前已經公告了，是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：公告過了，也開過審議會了。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候會送立院核備？"],["嚴主任委員德發：現在已經送到行政院了，相關行政院的協調工作，現在正在做，行政院各處室有任何的疑義，或者需要我們再補充資料的，我們目前都正在密切的聯繫當中，目前進度都正常。"],["馬委員文君：有掌握那個期程嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：有。"],["馬委員文君：大概評估在什麼時候可以達到送立院核備的期程？"],["嚴主任委員德發：這個可能要看行政院那邊對我們資料回復的情形，才能夠看什麼時候可以核定，目前進度都正常。"],["馬委員文君：主委，所謂的正常，就是我們有設定期程嘛，所以它才叫正常……"],["嚴主任委員德發：當然我們希望越快越好。"],["馬委員文君：對，如果說在我們正常的期程之下，大概會是什麼時候？"],["嚴主任委員德發：如果沒有陳復意見就很快。"],["馬委員文君：現在還有陳復的意見嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：目前還是有，但我們把陳復意見寫完以後再回復給他們。"],["馬委員文君：好，如果有什麼樣的進度，請隨時給我們現在的進度狀況，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們希望就是越快越好啦。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["馬委員文君：另外，針對有職榮民醫療優惠的部分，其實到目前為止，只限定於退輔會所屬醫療機構，跟之前的主委，也就是之前馮主委的時候，他有承諾會依照包括警消、海巡及空警他們的福利狀況，我們也要配合嘛，因為其實所有的軍人，尤其現在我們募兵這麼困難的情況之下，我們希望照顧我們的榮民、我們退役的同袍可以做到最好，你在這裡如果還有這樣的差異，是覺得我們的軍人在服役期間或者他的那個是比不上剛剛提到的這些警消、空警及海巡人員嗎？就這個部分要怎麼樣去積極的爭取？所有的健保部分，因為不是只有在我們退輔體系的軍醫院，而是包括衛福部，甚至他們在其他的臺大醫院、雲林分院、連江縣的醫院，其實都有健保部分負擔費用由政府全額補助的福利，主委，這樣的公平待遇，你可以積極的再替我們所有同袍爭取嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員關心，照顧榮民是我們基本的職責，我們一定要來極力爭取，這個工作，有關於有職榮民退下去之後，原來是要按照退伍軍階的比例付費，我們現在報到行政院的案子就是不能夠因為軍階不同而在補助上有所差異，統統把它取消掉，就是統統都免他們的自付部分負擔，由我們來負擔。"],["馬委員文君：主委，其實最重要的一點，是因為過去警消、海巡跟空勤人員沒有這一部分的優惠，在108年行政院才通過這樣一個補助方案，所以我們也希望至少我們的軍人，因為通常軍警消，大家在說的時候都是一致的，可是現在變成我們軍人受到的照顧跟福利反而比較少，這個部分我們希望退輔會一定要極力爭取。像他們現在並沒有區分現役、退役，甚至有職、無職都是一視同仁，我們現在是有區分的。到目前為止，即使公告也沒有達到我們原來跟退輔會所提出來的，希望可以幫軍人也提到這樣一個福利照顧的部分，這個部分也要持續來爭取，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我們極力爭取。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。","另外一個就是針對恢復退除役上校階以上官兵的子女教育補助費的部分，本委員會在4月間由王召委提案，不分黨派委員都同時連署臨時提案，建請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會有關上校階以上領俸人員子女教育補助費的事情，應積極研議並爭取，以促進退伍袍澤的權益。在上個會期的6月13號，翁曉玲委員也有提案，有18個人共同連署了國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案，當時的決定雖然是保留，要另外擇期繼續審查，主要是要讓退輔會有時間去跟行政院做個溝通，因為這個案子增加的預算是只有5,000萬，是對於整個所有的退除役官兵，不管其階級是什麼，可是突然把上校階以上拿掉，其實這個會造成很不公平的感覺，這個部分在這一次退輔會的業務報告裡面也沒有納入，我想請教一下主委，現在的進度是怎麼樣？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，上個會期委員會的決議就是希望我們儘量再去爭取，再去溝通協調。我們這一段時間一直跟行政院人總保持聯繫，他們希望我們提供上下的級距，退伍人員的級距，相關的一些人數、人員資料，相關的資料我們都提供給人總，這段時間就保持聯繫跟回復，所以目前還是正在研議當中，我們希望能夠儘快恢復，當然同時也希望能夠照顧到公教。"],["馬委員文君：主委，這個部分為什麼我們要特別提出來？我們在整體總預算上的金額不斷地增加，甚至包括現在大家最詬病的就是媒體的宣傳費用，它增漲的幅度高達65%以上，可是我們在照顧我們的退役軍人方面，尤其是像這樣的一個差別待遇，這是大家不能接受的，如果是基於預算的考量，可是在別的地方又可以這麼大手筆的一直增加預算，沒有理由不照顧我們退役上校階以上的子女教育，因為通常他們是很需要這樣一個補助預算的，所以這個部分我們還是希望可以持續的爭取。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["馬委員文君：接下來如果有什麼樣的進度，也麻煩告訴我們委員會。"],["嚴主任委員德發：會跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：另外，還要再特別提到的就是，退輔會成立的目的主要是照顧榮民，如果有很多的福利措施，比如說像長照、失智等，像這樣子的對象，其實它的權責單位應該是衛福部，所以我們還是希望退輔會應該要堅守，很清楚地知道我們設立的主要目的，我們要照顧的是榮民，像現在我們看到失智老人的照顧，我們現在在計畫當中有5所榮家設立失智園區，我們的失智床增加了502床，總床位將達到1,145床，這個占全國老人福利機構失智老人床位6成以上，就是說由我們退輔會提供6成以上失智老人照顧的床位。在相關未來的照護人力會增加護理人員56人，還有照服員441人，人力需求經費會達到二億七千多萬。我特別要提出來，也有委員希望你們滾動式的調整，我為什麼說我們成立的目的是照顧榮民？因為你會入住榮家，有些一住可能五年、十年，甚至二十年都有可能，你現在看起來可能還有空床，可是當他們需要的時候，因為現在的榮民不是以前的那些老伯伯，他們很多是單身，或者說他們就是需要這樣的照顧。可是未來我們的社會趨勢可能像失智或者必須接受長照照顧的人數也會增加，所以我們為什麼要有一定比例的床位配比，而不是你現在看到有空位就讓所有的人都可以進來，未來如果有榮民要住的時候，你可以把現在的一般民眾趕出去嗎？這個部分，我們希望退輔會還是要堅持我們設立的主要目的。","剛剛我們還有提到的就是人力的部分，剛剛看到我們有一千多名的照護需求，未來他都是用委外的，我們自己本身正職的人員其實好像並不多，越來越少，你大量的用委外的人員，其實我覺得這個也讓他變扭曲了。"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，我們現在研究怎麼樣自顧。"],["馬委員文君：有關這個部分，因為既然你已經有這麼多的床位，應該要怎麼樣做更好、更妥適的規劃安排，我想這個可能還是要去……"],["嚴主任委員德發：有關床位部分，跟委員報告，我們會控制一定的比例，現在目前最多的比例，一般民眾區域是18%，其他大部分大概有8成以上還是照顧我們的榮民榮眷，都有控制一些存量，我們會掌控。"],["馬委員文君：對，因為我們剛剛聽到的是你們要滾動式的調整，所以我不知道你的滾動要怎麼滾動，你是要把我們榮民的比例降低，還是你要怎麼樣，我想這個必須要……"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們當然以榮民、榮眷為主。"],["馬委員文君：對，所以我們還是希望有一些部分應該要堅守，我們不是衛福部，再次強調，所以不是我們拚命地去配合所有的政策，然後讓我們自己在人力有限的情況之下要去做很多很多的事情，而且還要釋出我們很多的政策福利等等，與其這樣還不如多照顧我們的退伍袍澤。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，也請退輔會給馬文君委員所需要的進度報告，主委請回。","下一位請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:13:56","end_time":"2024-10-09T10:05:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155280","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","duration":836,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:51:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a9dd5fa476cc5d78620a63eef073e7d61f248570de51b9a9305516ffde792dc4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.236593750000001,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.04096875,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.98596875,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.09971875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.54221875,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.30284375,"end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那什麼時候遇到那個我們會並同全民健康保險藥品價格調整作業辦法部分修正部分調整的修正那這個部分大概是什麼時候已經199月30號報到衛福部我們將依程序進行法規命令預告公告事宜"},{"start":97.594,"end":117.013,"text":"所以部長大概什麼時候?對,大概。可不可以跟我講一個時間點?不是,我說要先預告啊。預告60天,所以我想我們應該很快就會預告。很快大概是什麼時候?可以跟我說嗎?"},{"start":122.322,"end":134.568,"text":"社保司有沒有那個依照這個如果已經報到衛福部然後社保司再整理一下因為我是希望一個月之內能夠"},{"start":135.99,"end":152.872,"text":"1個月之內會預告?1個月之內會預告那再來部長國內的復康巴士供不應求預約困難那也有許多身心障礙或是有長照需求的長輩跟朋友常常跟我們反映其實我們在地方非常感謝有各種的那種團體會捐贈復康巴士"},{"start":153.593,"end":171.77,"text":"但是我發現這扶植車的售價還蠻貴的不過還好有貨物稅的這個條例對於扶植車是有免稅的規定但部長你知道這個免稅規定即將到今年底到期嘛所以我也將提出這個貨物稅條例第12條修正草案延長扶植車的免稅年限"},{"start":172.35,"end":189.94,"text":"那我也算過因為這個有三大好處第一個福祉車可能增加讓民間捐贈的這個意願也會好一點再來就是駕駛人增加以及最重要就是我們身心障礙朋友跟陪伴照顧的接送者可以重返這個勞動市長是一舉數得所以我想要請教部長你是否贊同贊同這個贊同延長這個我們現在已經簽上去希望延長五年"},{"start":197.822,"end":206.814,"text":"您們簽了嘛,對不對?延長5年。好,那很謝謝部長贊同這個概念喔。所以我也希望說這件事情可以落實。拜託部長來努力一下。"},{"start":208.24,"end":236.942,"text":"再來部長4月份調漲電價錢其實我也曾經抨擊過說調漲前沒有完全的評估後來前行政院長陳建仁才說中央政府要仔細盤點然後我們也要求動漲醫院的電價決議最後也才做出地區醫院動漲的決議那請教部長10月這個電價調漲這件事情已經議論了好幾個月那0520上任前衛福部有沒有主動找經濟部或者是經濟部有沒有找衛福部討論調漲電價這件事情"},{"start":239.625,"end":248.402,"text":"我想這個溝通一直在持續,因為醫療...都?所以您覺得有一直在持續?所以有嘛對不對?這個溝通一直在持續。這過程中都有討論對不對?"},{"start":251.892,"end":272.818,"text":"那如果都有討論的話我想要請問為什麼還會出現所謂的菸草這個銷售零售業動漲然後菸草製造業減半但是醫院卻要全額調漲荒謬情形然後最後才被批評為健康台灣淪為菸草台灣最後才說要動漲所以我想要請教這個你們真的有評估過這個調漲電價對醫療體系的影響嗎"},{"start":275.802,"end":294.879,"text":"因為這個基本上是經濟部的權責啦。是啊,但是你應該可以去協調啊。出現,出現像攝、我這樣講,攝、攝醫齁,是比較,是動長的嘛。那醫,呃,醫院沒有,沒有。對,沒有,對,部長我這些都知道,我想要問你的就是說你有沒有主動去協調,你有沒有主動去說哪些"},{"start":295.66,"end":297.001,"text":"這是一回事喔?但是你有沒有去跟他們的人溝通過嗎?"},{"start":311.508,"end":326.527,"text":"因為你剛剛有說中間一直有在協調啊你中間都有說嘛你不是說一直在協調好沒關係部長這裡我想要請你就是真的要為就是在衛福部的這個角色裡面也是可以去跟他們協調說哪些東西你認為應該"},{"start":328.029,"end":328.049,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":345.978,"end":368.522,"text":"對,所以我現在就是要拜託部長這件事因為我還要跟你反映一件事情就是這波調漲電價的過程我國的製藥產業又被遺漏了那部長我們現在不是都在強調藥品的供應鏈穩定嗎那什麼關鍵時刻的時候就他們就遺漏了其實主要我要講的是製藥業跟這個藥局但因為最終受到影響的也是人民我等一下給你看喔"},{"start":369.622,"end":394.133,"text":"部長一個國產的健保藥當然不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無無"},{"start":396.594,"end":419.684,"text":"這10%的售價那這10%是電力漲價所致而不是調漲原物料物品在有限時間內要從等於是他們說價格要乘以1.1那就是說藥品要漲價的意思所以我想要跟你說的就是說這是我們接獲的陳情那這是基層藥局也告知就基層的藥商通知基層藥局社區藥局的從10月1號開始要這樣子漲價所以我覺得這是一個連帶性的關係"},{"start":424.406,"end":439.581,"text":"好所以你們漲價不是所謂說0.03%的CPI衝擊而已其實這個連一般的人民的用藥連社區藥局的藥品都在漲啊而且還墊這個壓力也轉嫁到我們基層藥局所以我要為他們發聲喔他們社區藥局在新冠疫情期間幫我們發口罩對不對"},{"start":441.883,"end":451.948,"text":"然後用快篩那也是社區的第一道防線我覺得當時幸好有全國的藥師幫忙才可以讓這疫情有得到控制就這兩次調漲電價請問有哪一個衛福部的官員去替他們爭取說免漲或動漲電價"},{"start":459.332,"end":483.462,"text":"因為相關的醫療醫事院手其實機構也蠻多的所以我也希望說如果各個醫事機構在覺得說這樣的調漲對人民是不好的是那個都不用客氣都可以跟衛福部來反映所以部長我現在就是在跟你反映我每次都稱讚社區藥局有多幫忙當需要他們幫忙的時候就叫他們去發口罩叫他們發快篩"},{"start":484.162,"end":499.755,"text":"但是現在主責機關在面對這件事的時候卻沉默那其實讓他們都覺得好像是免洗筷被用完就丟但是我知道部長是個溫暖的人我相信你不是想要把它當免洗筷所以我希望您可以回去我剛剛已經講一整個脈絡了你的那個製藥業漲然後那個藥品漲社區藥局也有壓力社區藥局的電價也調漲雖然說它衝擊不見得到"},{"start":508.963,"end":510.385,"text":"因為他還是有幾個原則 審議會還是有原則如果能夠"},{"start":527.143,"end":529.745,"text":"沒關係部長這個邏輯你不用跟我講拜託你回去反映你覺得這個邏輯對不對如果你認為你也認同"},{"start":549.915,"end":565.965,"text":"我是覺得喔,那個相關的單位能夠提出他的一個理由跟訴求我們比較好去反映啦好,你意思是說假設這些藥師協會可以提出這些訴求的話那你不能,你沒辦法主動去幫他們反映嗎?對嘛,那這就好,雙邊進行齁,那這就是你這邊"},{"start":573.849,"end":574.71,"text":"另外還有一個問題就是你們疾管署死不認錯"},{"start":593.399,"end":618.871,"text":"部長今年5月2號上任的時候和陳昭芝委員也共同開了一場記者會內容是高等行政法院針對新冠疫苗救濟案件判決衛福部敗訴那敗訴理由中羅列各項缺失相關的審查會議應錄音並且保存但是是沒有但疾管署始終不願意去面對法官的指證去做改進"},{"start":619.651,"end":633.609,"text":"那這個案子後來家屬跟律師又向賴總統陳情總統府很快的回應說希望機關署保存開會錄音並公佈所有參考的文獻等等那請衛福部著處敬賦並複製總統府但是貴部卻回文說"},{"start":640.647,"end":656.065,"text":"是否保存開會過程錄音或公布參考文獻片名並無外其審議結果之正確性及釋法性?部長,總統府都下了公文請問部長為什麼不能公開?不能公開理由是什麼?他也要你們公開為什麼要繼續黑箱?"},{"start":656.505,"end":658.226,"text":"2小時審完90件案件,平均一個案件才80秒。"},{"start":682.319,"end":698.175,"text":"甚至有多次會議審議下來平均不到80秒一個人命這樣走了然後你們說很專業審議然後健保署的共理會議不僅在網站上有公開所有完整會議記錄連錄音檔都有可是為什麼這個簡單的公開透明疾管署做不到"},{"start":699.226,"end":724.832,"text":"而且你們所謂的專家喔憑良心講啊之前都有資料啊專家很多根本就沒有參與多久喔所謂專家會議他在裡面待的時間非常的短最後只剩下少部分人品了所以部長我想喔我真的要強烈的指責你們衛福部跟疾管署如果連這麼基本的公開透明都做不到如何取信人民你要想這些受害者當初他等於是冒著他的生命危險去打了這個為了"},{"start":726.172,"end":729.294,"text":"我們對於民眾因為不管因為什麼原因受傷或死亡我們真的是非常非常的難過跟遺憾"},{"start":753.371,"end":755.874,"text":"部長我真的不希望在你們在持續的所謂的這種黑箱啊然後就是做一套做一套喔"},{"start":774.295,"end":795.391,"text":"喔這些家屬很可憐啊我自己也有身邊也有好朋友他是年輕人啊我絕對不會做黑箱任何黑箱作業但是如果他不能公告的委員比如說名單啊或者是他的記錄齁這個部分我們去了解能公開的我們盡量公開而且你們其實那個案件到現在還在上訴還不想要不想要理賠啊"},{"start":796.616,"end":824.791,"text":"沒有,那也不是不想理會,也不是像報紙講的說我們去請三個律師,而是說我們去委託一個一個事務所,事務所裡面有很多醫生的,沒有,那很多就是事務的嘛所以不是說請很多律師啦部長這件事情不要再辯解,我覺得你們真的回去好好的用心面對,你們這樣子再搞下去,未來也沒有人敢這個參與所謂的工為了大家全社會的公衛,然後還要去打這個疫苗,欸這些人這樣子過世了,就國家"},{"start":825.831,"end":833.938,"text":"好,我們一定用最專業、最公正的立場來處理這些事情,請放心好,謝謝部長好,謝謝薛委員應該是用"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:51:44 - 10:05:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155280","gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時51分）謝謝主席。有請我們部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。為了要健保永續、解決缺藥跟穩定藥品供應鏈，並鼓勵國產、保障國人的用藥安全的部分，所以今年3月的時候，我也曾經提出藥價調整三原則的決議，也獲得了衛福部的同意。健保署的共擬會議也在8月15日就已經通過了，但是這個案子到現在不僅沒有公告，連預告也還沒開始，想要請教部長為何遲遲沒有公布，是背後有什麼力量干預嗎？是總統府，還是有什麼國策顧問，導致你還不簽？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，據我對這件事情的了解，應該都是在走專業方面的程序，我沒有感受到任何其他的壓力。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，8月15日通過這個共擬會議，請問什麼時候會預告？"],["邱部長泰源：共擬會議以後，因為在會議的代表其實對本案也沒有反對意見……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，那什麼時候預告？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會併同全民健康保險藥品價格調整作業辦法部分條文的修正，這個部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：大概是什麼時候？"],["邱部長泰源：9月30日已經報到衛福部，我們將依程序進行法規命令預告、公告事宜。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，大概是什麼時候？可不可以跟我講一個時間點？"],["邱部長泰源：預告60天，所以我們應該很快就會預告……"],["廖委員偉翔：很快？大概是什麼時候？可以跟我說嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：依照程序，如果已經報到衛福部，社保司再整理一下，我是希望一個月之內能夠預告……"],["廖委員偉翔：一個月之內會預告？"],["邱部長泰源：預告。"],["廖委員偉翔：一個月之內會預告？好。再來，國內的復康巴士供不應求預約困難，也有許多身心障礙或是有長照需求的長輩跟朋友常常跟我們反映，其實我們在地方非常感謝有各種團體會捐贈復康巴士，但是我發現這福祉車的售價還蠻貴的，不過還好有貨物稅條例對於福祉車是有免稅的規定，但是部長知道免稅規定即將在今年底到期嗎？所以我也將提出貨物稅條例第十二條修正草案，延長福祉車的免稅年限。我算過這有三大好處，第一個，福祉車可能增加，讓民間捐贈的意願也會好一點；再來就是駕駛人增加；以及最重要就是我們身心障礙朋友跟陪伴照顧的接送者可以重返勞動市場，是一舉數得。所以我想要請教部長，你是否也贊同延長？"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在已經簽上去，希望延長5年。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們已經簽了嗎？延長5年？好，很謝謝部長也贊同這個概念，我也希望這件事情可以落實，拜託部長努力一下。","再來，4月份調漲電價前，其實我也曾經抨擊過調整前沒有完全的評估，後來前行政院長陳建仁才說中央政府還要仔細盤點，我們也要求凍漲醫院的電價決議，最後也才做出地區醫院凍漲的決議。請教部長，10月電價調漲這件事情已經議論了好幾個月，你520上任前，衛福部有沒有主動找經濟部，或者經濟部有沒有找衛福部討論調漲電價這件事情？"],["邱部長泰源：我想溝通一直在持續進行，因為醫療，尤其是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以您覺得有一直在持續？所以有，對不對？這中間都有討論？"],["邱部長泰源：這都一直在持續。"],["廖委員偉翔：過程中都有討論，對不對？如果都有討論，我想要請問為什麼還會出現所謂的菸草銷售零售業凍漲、菸草製造業減半，但是醫院卻要全額調漲的荒謬情形，最後被批評為「健康臺灣淪為菸草臺灣」，才說要凍漲？所以我想要請教，你們真的有評估過調漲電價對醫療體系的影響嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個基本上是經濟部的權責……。"],["廖委員偉翔：是啊！但是你應該可以去協調。"],["邱部長泰源：就是會出現像獸醫是凍漲的嘛！那麼醫院沒有……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長，這些我都知道，我想要問你的是，你有沒有主動去協調？你有沒有主動去說哪些不應該這樣做，代表衛福部的立場去幫這些不管是醫療體系或者是醫療的民眾？"],["邱部長泰源：這是一個審議會，這個審議會大概沒有衛福部的代表在裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是一回事，但是你有沒有去跟他們的人溝通過？因為你剛剛有說中間一直有在協調，你有說嘛！你不是說一直在協調？好，沒關係。我想請部長真的要在衛福部的這個角色裡面，可以去跟他們協調你認為哪些東西應該要凍漲，或者是要減免，我是想要跟你溝通這個部分，因為部長……"],["邱部長泰源：這一、兩年來，只要有電價凍漲的時候，站在醫療院所的運作，我們一定用各種適當的方法去反映。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我現在就是要拜託部長這件事，因為我還要跟你反映一件事情，就是這波調漲電價的過程，我國的製藥產業又被遺漏了。部長，我們現在不是都在強調藥品的供應鏈穩定，怎麼關鍵時刻的時候，他們就遺漏了？其實我主要講的是製藥業跟藥局，但因為最終受到影響的也是人民。部長，一個國產的健保藥當然不僅沒辦法調漲，而且每年4月還要被砍價，對吧？所以當成本過高，藥商可能會被迫停止生產，產生缺藥的問題，這是一點。當然另外一點也有可能怕會轉嫁到其他非健保的藥品，對吧？另外，部長，這裡是我收到的陳情，你看這封信裡說：所有同仁早安！某某製藥從10月1號起調漲旗下所有的產品10%售價，這10%是電力漲價所致，而不是調漲原物料，務必在有限時間內……等於價格要乘以1.1，也就是藥品要漲價的意思。","這是我們接獲的陳情，是藥商通知基層藥局、社區藥局，從10月1號開始要這樣子漲價，所以我覺得這是一個連帶性的關係，你們漲價不是所謂0.03%的CPI衝擊而已，其實連一般人民的用藥、連社區藥局的藥品都在漲。這個電價壓力也轉嫁到我們基層藥局，所以我要為他們發聲，社區藥局在新冠疫情期間幫我們發口罩，然後用快篩，也是社區的第一道防線，當時幸好有全國的藥師幫忙，才可以讓疫情得到控制。結果這兩次調漲電價，請問有哪一個衛福部的官員去替他們爭取免漲或凍漲電價？"],["邱部長泰源：因為相關的醫事院所，其實機構也蠻多的，所以我也希望如果各個醫事機構覺得這樣的調漲對人民是不好的，不用客氣，都可以跟衛福部來反映。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，我現在就是在跟你反映，我們每次都稱讚社區藥局有多幫忙，當需要他們幫忙的時候，就叫他們去發口罩、叫他們發快篩，可是現在主責機關在面對這件事的時候，卻沉默，其實讓他們都覺得好像是免洗筷，被用完就丟。但是我知道部長是個溫暖的人，我相信你不是想要把他們當免洗筷，我剛剛已經講一整個脈絡了，你的製藥業漲、藥品漲，社區藥局也有壓力，社區藥局的電價也調漲，雖然它衝擊不見得到最大，可是它最終可能都反映到人民的身上、用藥人的身上，因為10月16號新電價才會上路，這段時間部長是不是可以立即去跟經濟部反映？"],["邱部長泰源：可以，因為它還是有幾個原則，審議會還是有原則，如果相關的單位，比如社區藥局這一邊如果覺得……"],["廖委員偉翔：當初菸草那個事情一出來，新聞一燒，馬上就公布了。"],["邱部長泰源：因為它是按照……我舉個例子，為什麼獸醫會在凍漲範圍，因為他們覺得農漁牧業就是在凍漲的範圍，就把它順便……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，沒關係，這個邏輯你不用跟我講，拜託你回去反映，你覺得這個邏輯對不對？如果你也認同，可以回去反映一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我是覺得如果相關的單位能夠提出它的理由跟訴求，我們比較好去反映，因為……"],["廖委員偉翔：你的意思是，假設藥師協會可以提出這些訴求的話……"],["邱部長泰源：他們可以提一個說明為什麼需要……"],["廖委員偉翔：你沒辦法主動去幫他們反映？"],["邱部長泰源：我當然可以主動……"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！這樣就好……"],["邱部長泰源：但我希望……"],["廖委員偉翔：雙邊進行，但這就是你這邊……"],["邱部長泰源：理由更充分嘛！"],["廖委員偉翔：對，因為10月16號也很快了，所以要拜託你趕快回去反映，我想這個最終影響到的是一般用藥人。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會一邊反映，一邊也給我們相關的資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，藥品乘以1.1也是蠻可怕的，每個漲10%，其實一般用藥人也是很有感。"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外還有一個問題，就是疾管署死不認錯，部長，今年5月2號上任的時候，和陳昭姿委員也共同開了一場記者會，內容是高等行政法院針對新冠疫苗救濟案件判決衛福部敗訴，敗訴理由中羅列各項缺失，相關審查會議應錄音並且保存，但是沒有，疾管署始終不願意去面對法官的指證去做改進。這個案子後來家屬跟律師又向賴總統陳情，總統府很快地回應說，希望疾管署保存開會錄音並公布所有參考的文獻等等，請衛福部卓處逕復，並副知總統府。但是貴部卻回文說，是否保存開會過程錄音或公布參考文獻篇名並無礙其審議結果之正確性及適法性。部長，總統府都下了公文，請問部長為什麼不能公開？不能公開的理由是什麼？他也要你們公開，為什麼要繼續黑箱？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，總統府是要我們去關心這件事情、辦理這件事情……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是你們還是持續地……"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部疾管署也有去檢討整個過程，這個部分都是專家，而且這個專家真的都是很嚴謹在審議。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個專家嚴謹很好笑喔！部長，你確定要很嚴謹喔！2個小時審完90件案件，平均1個案件才80秒，甚至有多次會議審議下來，平均不到80秒。1個人命就這樣走了，然後你們說很專業審議！健保署的共擬會議不僅在網站上有公開所有的完整會議紀錄，連錄音檔都有，可是為什麼這麼簡單的公開透明，疾管署做不到？而且你們所謂的專家，憑良心講，之前都有資料，專家很多根本就沒有參與多久，所謂專家會議，他在裡面待的時間非常地短，最後只剩下少部分人評。部長，我真的要強烈指責衛福部跟疾管署，如果連這麼基本的公開透明都做不到，要如何取信人民？你要想這些受害者，當初他等於是冒著他的生命危險，為了整個國家、全社會的公衛，去打了這個疫苗，沒想到他卻受害過世了，結果過世之後，你們好像為了要省錢還是怕錢不夠還是怎麼樣的，全部都給他亂評一通，這官司到現在還在打啊！部長，請你回去好好關切這件事情，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們對於民眾不管因為什麼原因受傷或死亡，我們真的是非常非常地難過跟遺憾，但是……"],["廖委員偉翔：不是，部長，你不能打太極啊！你要回去好好審視這件事情，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有關這個事件，我想我們把整個整理好再提一個報告給委員，好不好？把你所關切的……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我真的不希望你們在持續所謂的這種黑箱……"],["邱部長泰源：不會、不會。"],["廖委員偉翔：就是說一套，做一套，這些家屬很可憐，我自己身邊也有好朋友，他是年輕人……"],["邱部長泰源：我的立場絕對不會做任何黑箱作業，但是如果有不能公告的，譬如委員名單或者是他的紀錄，這個部分我們去了解，能公開的我們儘量公開。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實那個案件你們到現在還在上訴，還不想要理賠啊！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，不是不想理賠，也不是像報紙講的，說我們請3個律師，而是我們就委託一個事務所，事務所裡面有很多律師，所以不是請很多律師啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，這件事情不要再辯解，我覺得你們真的回去好好用心面對，你們這樣子再搞下去，未來也沒有人敢參與所謂的公……就為了全社會的公衛，然後還要去打這個疫苗，這些人這樣子過世了，結果國家……"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定用……"],["廖委員偉翔：國家付出的成本……"],["邱部長泰源：最專業、最公正的立場來處理這些事情，請放心。"]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那我想我們這個是要檢討對吧 這個我們要檢討我們會改進"},{"start":184.497,"end":204.498,"text":"好,因為這是我們自己台灣開發的,結果我們在這一題上面都回答得這麼不精確,這是一個很大的問題。但是我也同時問他另外一個問題,台灣的文化脈絡是傳承至中國嗎?因為我時間有限,我就直接講答案好了。左邊他是講台灣的脈絡部分傳承至中國,但並非單一來源,這個是CHECK GPT講的。"},{"start":205.018,"end":223.167,"text":"在右手邊呢他講得非常的完整喔就是我們受了哪些的國家或者是哪些的文化所影響的他講得非常完整這是台德的所以我這個題目其實要講是台德有它優秀的地方也有它不足的地方是因為我們用我們自己的資料來訓練我們國內對這個資料比較完整"},{"start":226.849,"end":254.312,"text":"所以這個就是變成說我覺得我們有他優秀的地方但是所以這個資料來源更新速度非常重要那所以我也是希望說台德的負責人是不是之後來我辦公室來做個說明可不可以那這個因為我有看到其實我們有一個這個重建台灣藝術史的這個資料要是今年的計劃那我自己會覺得就像我自己不停在講台灣其實在言論自由上面絕對是相對於我們華文世界裡面"},{"start":254.872,"end":255.172,"text":"我們的擴大計畫是什麼?"},{"start":283.646,"end":305.856,"text":"好,我們人文處其實已經有對台灣史,包含藝術史還有跟文化部的合作有計劃在進行那我會請他們來評估把台德盡早把它帶進來包含在訓練資料的取得以及使用台德來協助這方面的研究謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":305.916,"end":327.936,"text":"我想知道他的應用層面啦,因為我們只有訓練,他沒有辦法應用,那就是一個問題嘛。所以我想要知道你們現在要把他做訓練,一定有相關的應用的規劃,是不是可以簡單說明一下呢?還是說,現在可以簡單說明一下嗎?好,那我請我們科技辦來回答。我想齁,這個在政府裡面的應用是我們第一個權利來推廣的。"},{"start":329.827,"end":332.007,"text":"張委員我們會盡量來協助我們的學者使用台德"},{"start":357.773,"end":358.013,"text":"下一題就是說"},{"start":386.801,"end":401.441,"text":"大家可以看一下喔,左邊是ChairGPT,我問他同樣一個問題,台灣是主權不利的國家嗎?你看他回答的速度,非常的快速。好,那我想台德我就不播放了啦,因為等他寫完兩遍之後,台德一遍都還沒有寫完,這個速度上面落差非常大。"},{"start":402.563,"end":404.504,"text":"我們現在算力還沒有提升"},{"start":433.383,"end":455.949,"text":"按照我們的估計,就是各國現在的進展,我們當然也會評估。但是依照我們的估計,我們未來如果順利,我們預算能夠通過,我們逐步來建置我們的算力。我想,因為其實全世界,不管是在很多國家私人的系統,不管是微軟、Google、Amazon、Meta回答等等的,其實都有一起來"},{"start":456.749,"end":460.392,"text":"主委,我們是不是可以來建立一個算力國家隊呢?我們有沒有一個公司協力的規劃跟計劃呢?有,這個還不能公佈,就是我們跟產業界的這個聯繫除了我們現在已經公開的公部門的建設,未來的4年會達到480個Pedagog之外"},{"start":478.709,"end":499.468,"text":"我希望能夠引進產業界的實力所以我們有好幾個廠商都有能力來建置所以我們現在已經在洽談中了對不對我們預計什麼時候會組成國家隊呢是明年嗎我們明年只要預算能夠順利的話因為政府的投入是很重要的一個因素能夠吸引廠商也投入這是我們要先有這個做法"},{"start":501.316,"end":501.576,"text":"張雅琳委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:02:43 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10:11:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155279","gazette":{"lineno":275,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時2分）謝謝主席。我們有請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好，剛剛主委的報告裡面也是一直不停的提及AI，昨天剛好諾貝爾獎都頒給了兩位物理學家，他們都是以人工智慧這件事情來得到這個獎項，所以我想AI絕對是全世界的關鍵字，所以今天所有的題目都會跟AI非常有關係。","首先，我先請主委看一下這兩段文字，我問了AI，聯合國2758號決議對臺灣參與世界組織的解釋為何？我問了兩個機器人，你可以幫我看一下，你覺得哪一個是ChatGPT，哪一個是臺德？看得出來嗎？你覺得哪一個是臺灣開發的臺德？哪一個是ChatGPT呢？我再給15秒看一下，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我看不出來。"],["張委員雅琳：好像後面的幕僚說右邊的是臺德，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們覺得是右邊。"],["張委員雅琳：右邊是臺德，好，答案正確。我想這邊有一個很大的問題，現在全世界很多國家都已經簽署了聯合國2758號決議不涉及臺灣參與世界組織，可是臺德的說明似乎跟世界是完全不一樣的，我就很想知道我們是怎麼樣餵這個資料？多久更新一次？可不可以說明一下？誰可以說明一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這種大型語言模型來做這種回復問題的準確度，其實現在都還沒有辦法保證……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想左邊是比較符合現在世界在講的，不管是IPAC決議或是荷蘭、美國，跟現在大家講的是比較符合的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能是就現有的文獻能夠搜尋到的……"],["張委員雅琳：所以我就很好奇，因為相關文獻去年都已經開始在講，臺德今年才開始，為什麼我們會餵出像這樣子的資料？所以我想要知道我們到底怎麼餵資料？多久更新一次？"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員提的這個問題非常重要，我們的訓練資料如果不能夠與時俱進，不能夠把新的資料一直不斷地餵進來，就好像人在學習，一直要學習新的知識一樣，可能很快就會落伍。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯。我想我們這部分是要檢討，對吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，這個我們要檢討，我們會改進。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為這是臺灣自己開發的，結果在這一題上面都回答得這麼不精確，這是一個很大的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我也同時問它另外一個問題，臺灣的文化脈絡是傳承自中國嗎？因為我時間有限，我就直接講答案好了，左邊是講臺灣的脈絡部分傳承至中國，但並非單一來源，這個是ChatGPT講的。在右手邊講得非常完整，就是我們受了哪些國家或者是哪些文化所影響，它講得非常完整，這是臺德的，所以就這個題目，我其實要講臺德有它優秀的地方，也有它不足的地方。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，因為我們用我們自己的資料來訓練……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我懂。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們國內對這個資料比較完整。"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得臺德有它優秀的地方，而這個資料來源更新速度非常重要，所以我也是希望臺德的負責人是不是之後來我辦公室說明，可不可以？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，是。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我也有看到一個重建臺灣藝術史的資料，是今年的計畫，就像我之前不停在講臺灣其實在言論自由上面，絕對是相對於華文世界裡面非常有競爭力的，因為我們可以保存更多不同文化、更正確、不偏頗的事實跟研究，所以這是我們絕對要發展的。我也認為訓練臺德有更多臺灣史、臺灣本土的知識是非常重要的，我就想問，導入這個計畫之後，我們要如何發揮臺德的影響層面？我們的擴大計畫是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們人文處其實已經有對臺灣史、包含藝術史，還有跟文化部的合作，有計畫在進行，我會請他們來評估，儘早把臺德帶進來，包含訓練資料的取得以及使用臺德來協助這方面的研究，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["張委員雅琳：我想知道它的應用層面，因為我們只有訓練卻沒有辦法應用就是一個問題，所以我想要知道，你們現在要把它做訓練一定有相關的應用規劃，是不是可以簡單說明一下呢？現在可以簡單說明一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我請我們科技辦來回答。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：我想這部分在政府裡面的應用會是我們第一個全力來推廣的，藝術史的部分，是嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：這個資料我們會來跟各部會接洽，也希望各部會來支持我們去要資料，可以讓臺德來訓練，當我們這個文化……"],["張委員雅琳：我是講應用的部分，因為你現在只有訓練，你餵它總是有後面的應用，現在如果不清楚的話，沒關係，因為我時間真的很有限，所以我們就一樣約個時間，好不好？約個時間來詳細針對這部分來說明。"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員，我們會儘量協助學者使用臺德，在應用的部分，包含能夠更快速地去蒐集資料，因為對學者來講，資料蒐集非常重要，然後協助他們分析。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我懂、我知道。因為臺灣必須擁有完全自主的大型語言模型這件事情是非常、非常重要的，所以我對這件事情真的非常看重，希望如剛剛說的儘快跟我來聯繫，好不好？你們來說明。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["張委員雅琳：下一題，大家可以看一下，左邊是ChatGPT，我問它同樣一個問題，臺灣是主權獨立的國家嗎？你看它回答的速度非常的快速，臺德我就不播放了啦！因為等它寫完兩遍之後，臺德一遍都還沒有寫完，在速度上面落差非常大，我想……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為我們現在算力還沒有提升。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道。我知道是因為算力的問題，目前我們有一個目標，要在2028年排到全球前十名，所以我們有晶創計畫跟智慧科技大南方產業生態系都要增加到480 Petaflops。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：那我想問一下，我們有掌握其他國家未來對於算力的建置規劃嗎？不然我們怎麼可以喊出前十？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然也會評估各國現在的進展，但是依照我們的估計，未來如果順利，預算能夠通過，我們會逐步建置我們的算力。"],["張委員雅琳：其實全世界，不管是在很多國家的私人系統，包含微軟、Google、Amazon、Meta、輝達等等，其實都有一起來投入算力的建置……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我就想請教主委，我們是不是可以建立一個算力國家隊呢？我們有沒有公私協力的規劃跟計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，但這還不能公布，就是我們有跟產業界聯繫，除了現在已經公開的部分，即公部門的建設未來4年會達到480 Petaflops外……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：希望能夠引進產業界的實力，我們有好幾個廠商都有能力來建置。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在已經在洽談中了，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在洽談中。"],["張委員雅琳：預計什麼時候會組成國家隊呢？是明年嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年只要預算能夠順利，因為政府的投入是很重要的因素，能夠吸引廠商也投入，這是我們要先有的作法。"],["張委員雅琳：好，關於算力的建置跟提升計畫，是不是有一些相關期程報告可以提供給我們辦公室？好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["張委員雅琳：好，一個月，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來有請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:08:45","end_time":"2024-10-09T10:07:33+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155278","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","duration":525,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:58:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a883be97af8c214b9b46d19fd1690e0d4f248570de51b9a93ae5e27c9773548e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8109687500000002,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.48159375,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":30.051593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.09221875,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.22034375,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.025343750000005,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.11284375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.72284375,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.861593750000004,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.679718750000006,"end":64.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.39221875,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.66159375000001,"end":73.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.36971875,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.21659375,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.98846875000001,"end":96.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.84721875000001,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.17596875000001,"end":107.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.92971875,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.85784375,"end":109.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.15721875000001,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.31284375000001,"end":115.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.36346875000001,"end":114.57846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.23659375000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.57346875,"end":128.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.62346875,"end":123.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.75846875,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.93909375,"end":131.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.95971875,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.86659375000002,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.17034375,"end":138.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.97971875000002,"end":139.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.14846875,"end":139.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.23284375,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.57034375,"end":148.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.61534375000002,"end":149.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.26909375,"end":156.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.56784375,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.13284375,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.06909375,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.84534375,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.55346875,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.36346875,"end":167.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.15659375,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.26971875,"end":176.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.89409375000002,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.31971875000002,"end":209.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.42096875000001,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.88846875000002,"end":236.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.58784375000002,"end":217.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.73471875,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.95596875,"end":237.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.44096875000002,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.20846875,"end":250.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":253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我想請陳部長 請農業部陳部長部長 最近這幾個月以來 早安 我們就這個國土計畫法有關於這個農地劃設的部分交換了意見那對於農一農二甚至345農345農政資源的投入到底有哪些不同的補助 可以請部長具體的回答嗎"},{"start":30.259,"end":54.1,"text":"我想我們現在我還是一句話就是我們現在在規劃的堆疊式的起伏他跟國土計畫不對然是絕對的關係不管國土計畫是不是延後如期我們都會實施這第一個我知道他是沒有直接關係但是他是相互影響的因為國土計畫現在迫在眉睫要執行但是你的堆疊式補助到現在"},{"start":54.941,"end":73.543,"text":"不是說9月底要提出辦法嗎?請問一下為什麼沒辦法提出?是跳票了嗎?不是,我想我們內部已經做了一些規劃,但是我們對於農業的堆疊式給付的規劃過程中,我們內部完了以後,我們一定會對外去徵求各界的意見,包括"},{"start":73.763,"end":74.463,"text":"所以大概內容有什麼樣子的?內容的部分大概分為三個區塊"},{"start":101.902,"end":128.526,"text":"應該五個區塊第一個區塊是對地給付的部分那對地給付的部分過去都是在特農一般農嘛那未來這個範圍會擴大所以農三四五也會有這個會看後續我們還會再跟利害關係人做討論基本上會擴大那第二個部分是糧食安全給付的部分那糧食安全給付的部分會做一些調整金人會做一些調整"},{"start":129.046,"end":133.328,"text":"那我可以請教說規劃的這麼好這麼完善的一個堆疊式補助到底什麼時候才可以把它公諸於民呢?這樣加起來一年大概要多少錢呢?"},{"start":158.191,"end":172.387,"text":"我們初步規劃起來大概一年大概是兩百多億兩百多億所以這個遞住下去你覺得對我們農業會有很明顯的幫助嗎我想我們不管是現在到未來的國土計畫只要你從事農業都沒有影響"},{"start":174.089,"end":176.531,"text":"我現在就是擔心的是其實國土計畫我前幾天遇到那個劉世芳部長我就跟他說其實我們不一定要他延遲實行只要農民的權益有受到保障我們完全不反對"},{"start":188.641,"end":201.099,"text":"但是他對於你的業務執掌呢他完全沒有辦法掌握你的進度所以你們兩個是不是能夠橫向溝通一下這樣子才能夠一邊對我們的農民有保障一邊又不影響國土計畫法上路"},{"start":204.344,"end":212.145,"text":"我講劉部長絕對不可能說他沒辦法掌握我進度,我們盡量在溝通但是你到現在還沒有辦法拿出你具體的具體的你要堆疊是要怎麼補助你的內容是什麼農一跟農二之間的農政資源分別到底在哪裡你知道有多少鄉親問我說我現在是不可以農一啦我想要農二因為農一的限制多我問你,你如果現在變農二你如果假設變了農二"},{"start":232.809,"end":255.325,"text":"結果他告訴你說某某某某補助只有農醫能領你讓這些鄉親你讓這些農民怎麼辦呢所以我還是跟委員說明就是我們的對地地脊腹跟我們的這些措施下去不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤他不是一個對價他必然會是一個連結沒有我不會說他延期我就不處理了"},{"start":256.265,"end":256.885,"text":"請問部長目前預計怎麼解決這個問題我想我們"},{"start":285.991,"end":288.314,"text":"這個是另外你要執行的跟立法院通過的決議是不相干的"},{"start":301.75,"end":305.912,"text":"我現在就告訴你說本席覺得你要並行可以可是你不能把農民當作實驗品你知道嗎他們是活的他們需要生活他們的生計需要保障不是說你告訴我說一級二轉三加三可能一年會增加一塊"},{"start":323.459,"end":351.997,"text":"你這個可能打上一個大問號那天我就直接問你啊如果假設你可以跟本席保證說一年沒辦法長一塊你就願意負責下台那我覺得我還可以試著相信你但是我還是覺得說你過去一直擔任農事所的所長我也很尊重你的專業但是農民不能變成你的實驗品這些植物可以農民不可以他們每天都要面臨"},{"start":352.978,"end":377.44,"text":"文保的問題你不能把他們當作說有可能一年可以增加一塊三年可以增加三塊本席現在要求的是說應該要並行你公糧收購價格提高你不管是要提高一塊兩塊三塊四塊五塊六塊這個是一部分另外你要一級二選三加三我們也不反對你嘛你可以並行一直找到最好的同時發展的機會嘛"},{"start":380.295,"end":396.085,"text":"我跟委員說明齁其實農業部在思考就是當我去確保農民收業的時候我更希望這個產業是進步的那如果純粹只是發錢結束當然非常簡單我現在就在告訴你說你不能只想績效你不能只想理想他們是人"},{"start":396.986,"end":401.908,"text":"我們台灣農業要進步一定是不斷的要往前你農業要進步你要先把農民照顧好嘛農民都沒有辦法溫飽了你要求進步你不能眼睛只看到績效只看到理想要照顧農民不是只有發錢就解決的我只希望說部長部長你不要辜負他們的期待我們對你是有很深的期待我知道說你的內心當中其實跟我一樣對農業是有計判的"},{"start":424.975,"end":453.449,"text":"但是我希望說我們喔目標既然一致就能夠找到可以並行的方式一邊照顧農民一邊兼顧發展農業的理想這才是正途這才是正伴就像我剛才問你的你既然對你這個計畫那麼有信心你敢不敢賭上你的前程說假設一年沒辦法長一塊你就要下台我不做這樣的問題的回應是吧所以你也沒有辦法百分之百有信心說他是一年會長一塊嗎"},{"start":455.653,"end":476.96,"text":"我我我任何的一個政策都有一個目標然後我們任何的一個政策不是把農民當作實驗品他絕對不是一個實驗品但是你的方式實際上是把他當作實驗品我只是要求說我們雙軌並行尊重民意照顧農民對你來說其實是沒有差別的你還是可以去做一擊二轉三加三呀"},{"start":478.231,"end":481.856,"text":"我還是希望委員能夠支持我們做這個我支持啊我不反對但我也希望你落實照顧農民把這公糧收購每公斤5塊進入編導預算你不要去影響總預算嘛怎麼為了你一個人去卡總預算呢"},{"start":493.859,"end":510.949,"text":"這絕對不是為了我們的一個工糧的部分因為工糧如果真的提高了5塊的話那相對的整個產業的另外我想要請教部長的是說包括這個農業AI的部分我知道說這個費用現在目前一些補助都編在都編在這個"},{"start":513.61,"end":521.924,"text":"科技司這個部分內容是不是可以給我們知道一下讓我可以對農民宣傳以利他們申請可以我們廢後再提供給委員好謝謝張嘉鈞委員謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:58:48 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10:07:33","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155278","gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時58分）主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：早安，部長，最近這幾個月以來我們就這個國土計畫法有關於農地劃設的部分交換了意見，對於農一、農二甚至農三、農四、農五所做農政資源的投入到底有哪些不同的補助，可以請部長具體的回答嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是一句話，就是我們現在在規劃的堆疊式給付跟國土計畫不必然是絕對的關係，不管國土計畫是不是延後或如期，我們都會實施，這是第一個。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我知道它是沒有直接關係，但是它是相互影響的，因為國土計畫現在迫在眉睫，已經要執行了，但是你的堆疊式補助不是說9月底要提出辦法嗎？請問為什麼沒辦法提出，是跳票了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們內部已經做了一些規劃，但是對於農業堆疊式給付的過程，我們內部完了以後，一定會對外去徵求各界的意見，包括……"],["張委員嘉郡：可以請教本來不是說9月底要開始公布嗎？為什麼現在10月了還沒有辦法公布，有遇到什麼困難嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們內部已經做了一些規劃，接下來我們在10月間就會啟動一些不同利害關係人的說明會，然後……"],["張委員嘉郡：大概有什麼樣的內容？"],["陳部長駿季：內容的部分大概分為五個區塊，第一個區塊是對地給付的部分，對地給付的部分過去都是在特農、一般農，未來這個範圍會擴大。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以農三、四、五也會有？"],["陳部長駿季：這個後續我們還會再跟利害關係人做討論，基本上會擴大。","第二個部分是糧食安全給付的部分，糧食安全給付的部分在金額上會做一些調整，會針對我們所需要引導的作物，最重要的是生態給付的部分，過去生態給付只有針對瀕臨物種保育的給付，我們未來對節水……"],["張委員嘉郡：我可以請教說，規劃得這麼好、這麼完善的一個堆疊式補助，到底什麼時候才可以把它公諸於民呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們初步的規劃出來了，接下來我們會針對不同的利害關係人做溝通……"],["張委員嘉郡：這樣加起來一年大概要多少錢呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們初步規劃起來，一年大概是兩百多億。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一個挹注下去，你覺得對我們農業會有很明顯的幫助嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們不管是現在到未來的國土計畫，只要你從事農業都沒有影響，我們有針對這部分的支持……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在擔心的是，我前幾天遇到劉世芳部長我就跟他說，其實我們不一定要國土計畫延遲實行，只要農民的權益有受到保障，我們完全不反對，但是他對於你的業務職掌，他完全沒有辦法掌握你的進度，所以你們兩個是不是能夠橫向溝通一下？這樣子才能夠一邊對我們的農民有保障，一邊又不影響國土計畫法上路。部長，你怎麼看？"],["陳部長駿季：我想劉部長絕對不可能說他沒辦法掌握我的進度，我們經常在溝通。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你到現在還沒有辦法拿出具體的作法，例如堆疊式要怎麼補助、你的內容是什麼、農一跟農二之間的農政資源分別到底在哪裡？你知道有多少鄉親問我說，我現在是不要農一，我想要農二，因為農一的限制多。我問他，我說，你如果現在編農二，結果他告訴你說，某補助只有農一能領，你讓這些農民怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我還是跟委員說明，我們的堆疊式給付跟我們的這些措施下去，不會跟國土計畫做掛鉤，它不是一個對價。"],["張委員嘉郡：它必然會是一個連結嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我不會說它延期我就不處理了，我還是會去做，所以它不一樣……"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道啊！問題是你要先處理，它才有辦法上路啊！等於你卡住它了。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，只要你從事農業，完全沒有影響。"],["張委員嘉郡：你心裡是這樣想，但是問題是事實上就不是這樣嘛！","另外我再問你，你應該非常清楚，總預算退回這件事情的原因之一就是農業部未編列本院通過提高公糧收購價格每公斤5元的這個預算，請問部長目前預計怎麼解決這個問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我想保障稻農或確保稻農的收益是大家一致的目標，我們用另外一個1集、2轉、3加3的政策，同樣的也能夠……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個是另外你要執行的，跟立法院通過的決議是不相干的。"],["陳部長駿季：立法院通過的決議因為有扯到費用的問題……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就告訴你，本席覺得你要並行可以，可是你不能把農民當作實驗品，你知道嗎？他們是活的，他們需要生活，他們的生計需要保障，不是說你告訴我1集、2轉、3加3，「可能」一年會增加1塊，你這個「可能」讓大家打上一個大問號。那天我就直接問你，假設你可以跟本席保證說一年沒辦法漲1塊，你就願意負責下臺，那我覺得我還可以試著相信你，但是我還是覺得，你過去一直擔任農試所的所長，我也很尊重你的專業，但是農民不能變成你的實驗品，這些植物可以，農民不可以，他們每天都要面臨溫飽的問題，你不能把他們當作說，有可能一年可以增加1塊，三年可以增加3塊。本席現在要求的是應該要並行，公糧收購價格提高，你不管是要提高1塊、2塊、3塊、4塊、5塊、6塊，這個是一部分，另外，你要1集、2轉、3加3，我們也不反對嘛！你可以並行，一直找到最好的同時發展的機會嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，其實農業部在思考的就是，當我去確保農民收益的時候，我更希望這個產業是進步的，如果純粹只是發錢結束，當然非常簡單，但是產業不會進步。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就在告訴你，你不能只想績效、你不能只想理想，他們是人。"],["陳部長駿季：不是理想，我們臺灣農業要進步，一定是不斷的要往前。"],["張委員嘉郡：農業要進步，你要先把農民照顧好嘛！農民都沒有辦法溫飽了，你要求進步？你不能眼睛只看到績效，只看到理想。"],["陳部長駿季：要照顧農民不是只有發錢就解決了，我們希望透過系統能夠來處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：我只希望部長你不要辜負他們的期待，我們對你是有很深的期待，我知道你的內心當中其實跟我一樣對農業是有期盼的，但是我希望我們目標既然一致，就能夠找到可以並行的方式，一邊照顧農民，一邊兼顧發展農業的理想，這才是正途，這才是正辦。就像我剛才問你的，你既然對你這個計畫那麼有信心，你敢不敢賭上你的前程說，假設一年沒辦法漲1塊，你就要下臺？"],["陳部長駿季：我不做這樣的問題的回應。"],["張委員嘉郡：是吧！所以你也沒有辦法百分之百有信心說它是一年會漲1塊嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：任何的政策都有一個目標，然後我們任何的一個政策不是把農民當作實驗品，他絕對不是一個實驗品。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你的方式實際上是把他當作實驗品，我只是要求雙軌並行，尊重民意、照顧農民，對你來說其實是沒有差別的，你還是可以去做1集、2轉、3加3。"],["陳部長駿季：我還是希望委員能夠支持我們做這個。"],["張委員嘉郡：我支持啊！我不反對，但我也希望你落實照顧農民，把這個公糧收購每公斤5塊編到預算，你不要去影響總預算嘛！怎麼為了你一個人去卡總預算呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這絕對不是為了我們一個公糧的部分，因為公糧收購價格如果真的提高了5塊的話，相對的整個產業的……"],["張委員嘉郡：另外我想要請教部長，包括農業AI的部分，我知道這個費用目前一些補助都編在科技司，這個部分的內容是不是可以讓我們知道一下，讓我可以對農民宣傳，以利他們申請？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我們會後再提供給委員。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員，部長請回座。","下一位質詢請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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主席我們有請嚴主委請嚴主委林委員好主委好 主委有沒有趁這個開議之前到這個國內去進行一些國內旅遊尤其是我們知道退服會峽下有一些我們的觀光農場還有就是一些旅館就之前去過農場是我們高三的農場去過好"},{"start":30.784,"end":57.724,"text":"我不知道主委有沒有聽過現在這個民間有一個很有趣的這個笑話就是說如果有一間公司啊他舉辦國內旅遊大家會說哇那你去年業績很好賺大錢啊這個賠錢的或賺的少的才會到國外旅遊所以國內旅遊其實現在的房價其實一般消費者都會認為說挺貴的那我們知道在我們這個退服會峽下有一些幾個農場機構甚至於呢都還有一些旅館的經營我們有幾個農場機構"},{"start":60.085,"end":64.866,"text":"山高山有三個大農場,平地有兩個,昌化跟台東這幾個退府會峽下的農場機構當中,又有幾間在經營合法的旅館跟旅宿山高山有三座平地呢?平地你知道嗎?"},{"start":88.789,"end":105.023,"text":"平地農場有4個地方在經營旅宿業好,其實我稍微調查跟了解了一下當然山高山的這幾個包括武陵農場、福壽山親近非常夯那麼房價的部分當然也就合理的會反映這個需求"},{"start":105.683,"end":117.187,"text":"但是如果是平地的彰化農場跟臺東農場的話那他們的價格相對的非常合理喔我先唸出來一下就是像高雄同學農場的話雙人房只要4200那四人房6000那麼如果是池上啊或是東和或是豐壽會館的話雙人房有的甚至於只要1200"},{"start":128.351,"end":130.433,"text":"有的有合法的旅館登記但是有的好像沒有是這樣嗎"},{"start":142.184,"end":170.639,"text":"報告委員我們的觀光條例實行以後因為山高山農場他從很早以前都經營旅宿業所以他很早就取得旅館的登記了但是因為我們觀光條例通過以後在明年的1月份以前沒有取得的話將我們平地農場以務農為主所以說他明年1月開始我們就不能經營這個旅宿業了我們現在採取的措施就是委外經營方式"},{"start":171.419,"end":189.588,"text":"現在高雄農場在112年之後已經委外經營了那池上的會館在今年的4月也委外經營了那東和的會館我們預備在今年年底以前委外經營那花蓮的壽豐農場因為現在做地木的變更變更完以後我們也會委外經營"},{"start":191.589,"end":202.395,"text":"呃,我想,管理的事業單位都非常清楚啦,沒錯,就是104年之後,因為我們的觀光條例有進行了修正之後,有10年的寬限期,其實本席要問主委的就是,我開場白就先說了,其實現在我們國內的這些旅宿業的房價,當然高檔的甚至五星級的要上萬,沒錯。"},{"start":213.061,"end":230.955,"text":"但是其實退輔會狹下所的這些農場機構的旅館其實是可以提供相對合理的價格他不只是提供給我們退出役官兵們其實有一個休閒旅遊的好地方之外其實國人也會需要但是為什麼拖到最後一刻你看喔114年的1月21號如果沒有辦妥相關的旅館的登記之後就不能繼續營業了那就像剛剛所講的"},{"start":240.422,"end":252.507,"text":"既然早就10年前就知道為什麼不能好好的動起來當然中間一經過了這個疫情期間的COVID當然相對的會很慘淡但是主委你有沒有覺得其實這一塊是可以好好動起來的"},{"start":255.442,"end":268.97,"text":"目前我們都已經辦理招商在作業當中好在作業當中那是不是就是要拖到最後一刻就像剛剛講的本席也去查了那麼照顧彰化的這個高雄同學農場112年1月就委外廠商經營囉那池上會館是113年3月委託民間來經營那麼河東農場跟壽豐農場的進度只剩下最後兩個月喔那這個時間跟騎乘上可以來得及嗎"},{"start":283.458,"end":309.649,"text":"東河農場的部分,我們應該來得及,因為最主要是之前颱風的影響,它受到非常非常嚴重的損壞,連外道路也不通,那這個東西我們會加速來進行,請委員放心。好,但是呢,這個預算會期回到預算,主委我要講,114年度的預算書當中有提到,臺東農場的觀光收入變成是只剩下15000元,比上個年度的預算700萬要減少了698萬。"},{"start":312.881,"end":342.601,"text":"那像這樣子是因為委外經營之後所預算書的呈現嗎還是說反正這些都是不欠錢的單位因為我必須要強調喔真的就像我們剛剛前面看到的第一張在高山地區比較有競爭力尤其是在那些風光明媚的地方每年到了賞花祭節可以說是供不應求但是平地的地區是不是就是因為競爭力相對比較薄弱對於政府會來講收入也比較少就可以不用去管它或是不經營它其實這是本席很在乎的"},{"start":344.402,"end":367.937,"text":"報委員我們委外經營以後狀況會好很多因為平地農場包含彰化農場跟台東農場他最主要的事業目的其實就是我們的農業經營並不是這個旅館的規劃所以這方面他們是比較弱的這個是我們必須要承認而且從近三年來其實他都是虧本在經營的"},{"start":368.937,"end":396.582,"text":"對沒錯他確實是在虧本經營但是為什麼我沒有放棄是因為就是我們國民有需求所以說我們才忍痛高雄農場我以高雄農場為例他一年要虧損五百萬但是為什麼我們繼續經營下去這最主要是有需求我們才經營下去旁邊有一滇緬村就是那個姓國村這間我們要還要負責照顧他們最主要原因是在這個地方"},{"start":397.202,"end":424.575,"text":"本席就是特別把這個問題也就質詢把它提出來那確實就如同我們今天尋答上所講的民眾是有他的需求但是缺乏的會不會是一些亮點的宣傳又或者是說特色的規劃那我們希望在這個接下來如果能夠把進度掌握然後在這個有委外經營底下也能夠幫這個10年前就已經知道了現在如果沒有取得這個旅館相關的登記其實是無法合法經營的"},{"start":425.435,"end":449.807,"text":"好另外一個當然我們就要回到這個關於人力的問題喔其實我們各個榮處我非常的重要因為他攸關著我們120萬我們的這個退休的這個退役的這些官兵們跟榮眷們之間那在這個120萬人處的不論是他們就養就業就學等等其實人力第一線到底足不足夠因為時間有限我直接就講了有8個"},{"start":450.948,"end":470.9,"text":"容處缺額是高於10%當我們第一線人力有缺口的時候對比這是113年而且昨天最新統計的資料對113年對比112年還有8個地方包括臺北市新北市基隆市花蓮縣臺東縣苗栗縣彰化縣跟雲林縣"},{"start":475.163,"end":495.713,"text":"面對這種第一線現在有高於10%的人力缺口,我們要如何想辦法來補足呢?報告委員,我們現在整個各容圖處是507,缺是缺了58個,但是58個人也有職務代理人也有29個,大概缺了一半,還有29個,但是目前我們正在辦理"},{"start":497.154,"end":512.661,"text":"在增補在補充當中另外在這個階段我們是用社工我們有這個社工隊來支援來讓他們節省一些人力榮勳志工來幫忙一些仿事的一些工作服務的工作"},{"start":513.281,"end":539.181,"text":"其實就是用一種所謂志工來做替代那不然就可能在過渡時期但另外一種方式可能就是什麼就是用所謂加班來處理本席特別幫這個我們各個榮處的加班天數來做一個統計這個會發現最高的南投會高達31.6天最低的台北市也有2.1天相差的倍數是15倍"},{"start":541.143,"end":544.327,"text":"當然有些人認為說我賺點加班費挺好的但是更多的時候他可能產生的這種過勞會降低第一線人力的包括就養就業提供諮詢的一個品質然後我們看到除了南投縣"},{"start":558.206,"end":574.189,"text":"依然嘉義臺東基隆花蓮加班的天數也都高於其他的地區所以主委有注意到這樣的狀況嗎那顯然的相對的他就影響到了這些縣市第一線人力的調度之外我相信服務品質也會變差"},{"start":575.27,"end":591.721,"text":"那可以感受得到是不是臺北市就相對的這個2.1的加班天數是比較合乎大家常理的接受那就像剛剛前一位沈博洋委員提到的可能是醫療機構那偏鄉是不是出現了大家比較不願意服務又或者是說其實南投地處在我們的"},{"start":597.366,"end":622.268,"text":"臺灣最中心才是真的我們臺灣的內地啊南投啊為什麼會發生31.6天原因是什麼委員我請輔導處處長跟你做報告委員我向您報告我是輔導處處長是最主要是因為南投的編制人數只有19人是那臺北市有54人相同的加班的時數放大出去之後臺北市的比率就很低"},{"start":623.168,"end":636.696,"text":"藍投的比例就會很高那事實上藍投目前只有缺一員而已那相關的加班我們會來注意絕對不會讓我們同仁過老在我們工作品質不降低的狀況下我們絕對不會讓我們同仁過老謝謝委員"},{"start":638.577,"end":653.581,"text":"因為時間有限我先講一個結論那就是臺北市是不是因為要服務的榮民榮眷比較多所以員額比較高但是相對的如果說南投你現在看到有這樣的加班天數那就表示過去給的員額現在明顯的已經無法符合現行榮眷榮民的人數那這個在於所謂的"},{"start":661.923,"end":662.323,"text":"我們再做一個檢討"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:53:50 - 10:05:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155277","gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時53分）謝謝主席。主席，我們有請嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：主委好。主委有沒有趁開議之前到國內去進行一些國內旅遊？尤其是我們知道退輔會轄下有一些觀光農場，還有一些旅館。"],["嚴主任委員德發：就職前去過農場，我們去過三高山的農場。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我不知道主委有沒有聽過現在民間有一個很有趣的笑話，就是如果有一間公司舉辦國內旅遊，大家會說它去年業績很好、賺大錢，賠錢或賺得少的才會到國外旅遊。所以國內旅遊現在的房價，其實一般消費者都會認為挺貴的，我們知道在退輔會轄下有幾個農場機構，甚至於還有一些旅館的經營，我們有幾個農場機構？"],["嚴主任委員德發：三高山是三個大農場，底下平地有兩個，彰化跟臺東。"],["林委員楚茵：好，這幾個退輔會轄下的農場機構當中，又有幾間在經營我們的旅館跟旅宿？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們三高山有三座。"],["林委員楚茵：對，平地呢？你知道嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：請我們事業處處長跟你做說明。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，我們平地農場有四個地方在經營旅宿業。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實我稍微調查跟了解了一下，當然三高山的這幾個，包括武陵農場、福壽山跟清境非常夯，房價的部分當然也就合理的會反映需求，但是如果是平地的彰化農場跟臺東農場，他們的價格相對的非常合理，我先念出來一下，像高雄同學農場，雙人房只要四千二，四人房六千，如果是池上、東河或是壽豐會館，雙人房有的甚至於只要一千二、四人房兩千八，所以這些價格都是非常的合理跟實惠，可是本席發現的問題是，有的有合法的旅館登記，但是有的好像沒有，是這樣嗎？"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，我們的觀光條例實行以後，因為三高山農場從很早以前就經營旅宿業，所以很早就取得旅館的登記了，但是因為我們觀光條例通過以後，在明年的1月份以前沒有取得的話，像我們平地農場以務農為主，所以從明年1月開始，我們就不能經營這個旅宿業了，我們現在採取的措施就是委外經營方式，現在高雄農場在112年之後，已經委外經營了；池上的會館在今年的4月也委外經營了；東河的會館，我們預備在今年年底以前委外經營；花蓮的壽豐農場，因為正在做地目的變更，變更完以後，我們也會委外經營。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想管理的事業單位已經都非常清楚，沒錯，就是104年之後，因為我們的觀光條例進行了修正之後，有10年的寬限期，其實本席要問主委的是，我開場白就先說了，現在我們國內的這些旅宿業的房價，當然高檔的甚至於五星級的要上萬，沒錯，但是其實退輔會轄下這些農場機構的旅館，其實是可以提供相對合理的價格，不只是提供給我們退除役官兵們有一個休閒旅遊的好地方之外，其實國人也會需要，但是為什麼拖到最後一刻，你看！114年1月21日如果沒有辦妥相關的旅館登記，就不能繼續營業了，就像剛剛所講的，既然早在10年前就知道，為什麼不能好好的動起來？當然中間經過了COVID-19疫情期間，相對的會很慘淡，但是主委有沒有覺得其實這一塊是可以好好動起來的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，目前我們都已經辦理招商，在作業當中。"],["林委員楚茵：好，在作業當中，是不是就是要拖到最後一刻？就像剛剛講的，本席也去查了，包括彰化農場所屬的高雄同學農場112年1月就委外廠商經營了；池上會館是113年3月委託民間經營；東河農場跟壽豐農場的進度，只剩下最後兩個月，這個時間跟期程上可以來得及嗎？"],["楊處長長政：東河農場的部分，我們應該來得及，因為最主要是之前颱風的影響，它受到非常非常嚴重的損壞，聯外道路也不通，我們會加速來進行，請委員放心。"],["林委員楚茵：好，但是這個預算會期，回到預算，主委，我要講，114年度的預算書當中有提到臺東農場的觀光收入變成只剩下1萬5,000元，比上個年度的預算700萬要減少了698萬，像這樣子是因為委外經營之後，預算書的呈現嗎？還是反正這些都是不賺錢的單位？我必須要強調，真的就像我們剛剛前面看到第一張，在高山地區比較有競爭力，尤其是在那些風光明媚的地方，每年到了賞花季節，可以說是供不應求，但是平地的地區是不是就是因為競爭力相對比較薄弱，對於退輔會來講，收入也比較少，就可以不用去管它或是不經營它？其實這就是本席很在乎的。"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，我們委外經營以後，狀況會好很多，因為平地農場包含彰化農場跟臺東農場，它最主要的事業目的其實就是我們的農業經營，並不是旅館的規劃，所以這方面他們是比較弱的，這部分我們必須要承認，而且近三年來它其實都是虧本在經營的。"],["林委員楚茵：對，沒錯。"],["楊處長長政：他們確實是在虧本經營，但是為什麼我們沒有放棄，是因為我們的國民有需求，所以我們才忍痛繼續經營，我以高雄農場為例，它一年要虧損500萬，但是為什麼我們會繼續經營下去，最主要是有需求，我們才經營下去，旁邊有個滇緬村，就是信國新村這些，我們還要負責照顧他們，最主要原因是在這個地方。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席特別把這個問題在質詢時提出來，確實就如同我們今天詢答上所講的，民眾是有他的需求，但是缺乏的會不會是一些亮點的宣傳，又或者是說特色的規劃，我們希望接下來如果能夠把進度掌握，然後在委外經營下，也能夠幫10年前就已經知道，現在如果沒有取得旅館相關登記的，其實是無法合法經營的。","另外一個，我們就要回到有關於人力的問題，其實我們各個榮處都非常重要，因為攸關著我們120萬的退休、退役官兵們跟榮眷們，對於這120萬人次，不論是他們的就養、就業、就學等等，其實第一線人力到底足不足夠？因為時間有限，我直接就講了，有8個榮處缺額是高於10%，當我們第一線人力有缺口的時候，這是113年昨天最新統計的資料，113年對比112年，還有8個地方的缺額高於10%，包括臺北市、新北市、基隆市、花蓮縣、臺東縣、苗栗縣、彰化縣跟雲林縣，面對這種第一線現在有高於10%的人力缺口，我們要如何想辦法來補足呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我們現在整個各榮服處是507人，缺是缺了58個人，但是58個人裡面已經有職務代理人員的有29人，大概缺了一半，還有29人，目前我們正在辦理增補，在補充當中。另外，在這個階段我們是用社工，我們有社工隊來支援，讓他們節省一些人力，有榮欣志工來幫忙一些訪視的工作、服務的工作。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實就是用所謂志工來做替代，不然就可能……"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，現在是過渡時期。"],["林委員楚茵：好，但另外一種方式是什麼，就是用所謂加班來處理。本席特別幫我們各榮處的加班天數做了一個統計，發現最高的南投高達31.6天，最低的臺北市也有2.1天，相差的倍數是15倍，當然有些人認為賺點加班費挺好的，但是更多的時候，可能產生的這種過勞會降低第一線人力在提供就養、就業等諮詢的品質。然後我們看到除了南投縣，宜蘭、嘉義、臺東、基隆、花蓮等榮處的加班天數也都高於其他的地區，主委有注意到這樣的狀況嗎？顯然的、相對的，這除了影響到了這些縣市第一線人力的調度之外，我相信服務品質也會變差，可以感受得到是不是臺北市2.1天的加班天數相對是比較合乎大家常理能接受的，像剛剛前一位沈伯洋委員提到的可能是醫療機構，偏鄉是不是出現了大家比較不願意服務的情況，又或者說南投地處於我們臺灣的最中心，真的是我們臺灣的內地，為什麼會發生需要加班31.6天的情況，原因是什麼？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我請服照處處長跟你報告。"],["曹處長東發：委員，我向您報告，我是服照處處長，最主要是因為南投的編制人數只有19人，臺北市有54人，相同的加班時數，放大出去之後，臺北市的比例就很低，南投的比例就會很高。事實上，南投目前只有缺額1員而已，相關的加班我們會來注意，絕對不會讓我們同仁過勞，在我們工作品質不降低的狀況下，我們絕對不會讓我們同仁過勞，謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為時間有限，我先講一個結論，那就是臺北市是不是因為要服務的榮民、榮眷比較多，所以員額比較高，但是相對的，如果說南投，你現在看到有這樣的加班天數，那就表示過去給的員額現在明顯已經無法符合現行榮民、榮眷的人數，這個在所謂的員額當中是不是要做調整？本席希望提出這樣一個加班天數的統計，讓你們去做一些員額上的異動。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們在編制上再做一些檢討。"],["林委員楚茵：對，沒錯、沒錯，好不好？因為我們其實應該讓全國所有的榮民跟榮眷獲得的服務品質，就醫、就業、就養等所有都應該是一致的，包括第一線的人力也應該是均衡的，好嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們再做個檢討，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，主委請回。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:08:49","end_time":"2024-10-09T10:02:36+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155276","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","duration":529,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:53:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a00c96530969fb58b4cc4e7309f7945e5f248570de51b9a93dbf88ab0c805ad9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.1234687500000002,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.097843750000001,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.13909375,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.535343750000003,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.79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112年的11月6號看到國科會相關的研究計畫要點裡面第26條你們新增了違反性平就會終止補助我覺得這個很好但是我要跟主委說你們其實還可以做得更多"},{"start":38.337,"end":62.162,"text":"行政院昨天有一個發文 行政院針對自己的行政院文化獎他們做出了修正 他們甚至說可以撤銷廢紙追回獎項的條件 那我們來看文化部文化部在去年的非常多性平事件之後 他們做了全面性的法規盤點 他們甚至要求可以終止追回撤銷補助獎項的部分 那我們來看一下"},{"start":62.822,"end":72.727,"text":"主委在國科會底下有非常多的獎項我們條列一下總統科學獎行政院傑出科技貢獻獎傑出研究獎吳大友先生紀念獎未來科技獎"},{"start":73.874,"end":102.711,"text":"我不是吳忠生有,主委我們來看一下去年有一個記者會談了性平案件而其中那個指控案件的當事人我們所指控那位教授他就是得到國科會未來科技獎那這個事件還在調查當中但是我想要問國科會這邊可不可以積極的把相關的機制建立起來也就是說不要只有所謂的終止補助甚至可以追回獎項我覺得這個是非常重要的事情主委可不可以簡單回覆一下"},{"start":103.191,"end":115.405,"text":"好,非常感謝陳委員提醒我們有關這些獎項如果違反《性平法》的事實已經確定的話是不是要追回這個獎項我們會審慎來研議"},{"start":118.328,"end":143.693,"text":"我希望一個月內收到回覆報告好謝謝主委好來下一個我們來看一下園區的部分其實呢我們看到三個科學園區都有所謂在談永續這件事情非常感謝企業的社會責任不管是SDG ESG都有相關的手段跟目標可是我們來看一下目前園區所整理的工作事項有這麼多這麼多我就不一一念了看得出來園區跟廠商在環境永續上都非常的努力"},{"start":144.133,"end":158.96,"text":"可是我想要跟主委談另外一個觀點其實永續不是只有環保不是只有環境其實在社會跟文化資源的投入也可以是一個相關的方法我跟主委分享去年政交所已經修正上市上櫃公司永續發展實務守則"},{"start":161.181,"end":190.265,"text":"跟企業說經由捐贈贊助投資採購策略合作的支持模式可以要求企業把相關資源益助在文化藝術活動甚至是文化創意產業納入維護社會公益的範疇另外在112年度第10屆公司治理評鑑指標裡面也把公司如果可以投入資源支持台灣國內的文化發展把相關的支持方法跟成果揭露還可以在公司治理評鑑得分"},{"start":190.945,"end":192.066,"text":"我非常同意陳委員的觀點"},{"start":208.354,"end":234.037,"text":"我想我們在各個園區管理局也許我們可以設立這樣的評鑑的機制把這個項目也把它加進來其實我們科技的產業所有的廠商現在也努力真的是在朝這個方向走其實因為我時間有限我就沒有辦法分享可是例如說以臺灣這幾年只要談到任何跟文化產業都非常喜歡學韓國我就跟主委報告韓國在影視音甚至是書籍出版"},{"start":234.377,"end":234.797,"text":"在3個月內回覆"},{"start":247.183,"end":258.328,"text":"感謝主委國科會非常積極的推動科普這件事情不管是Kids Science或是KidsScience的起跑活動甚至相關後續的活動我就不再贅述不過真的感謝國科會甚至我們來看一下如果以整個10月份來看中研院有Open House還有諾貝爾獎得獎公佈還有國科會有創新技術博覽會"},{"start":276.295,"end":299.438,"text":"如果我的想像是整個10月他都可以是台灣的小孩科技月那該有多好對不對好我們來下看這次Kids Science我真的要我們剛剛做不好的我們執政可是做得好的我們要鼓勵喔包含了故宮農業部高速網路中心使錢館大家做的圖卡跟相關資訊真的有站在理解小孩的立場我要再次感謝國科會可是我覺得很可惜這麼好的活動喔我們來看宣傳的部分"},{"start":300.579,"end":327.748,"text":"國科會你們說你們的宣傳呢是有記者會啟動典禮海報跟公文還有社群媒體可是我們來看歷史悠久的open house他們為了宣傳相關的活動讓更多人來參與他們做了非常非常多的事情可能也沒有花太多錢所以請主委不要誤會所以我想要拜託國科會我們的既然做了這麼多好的活動我們在宣傳的部分可不可以更用力更大力讓更多人可以來參與這個事情好謝謝陳委員提醒以後我們要注意就是宣傳"},{"start":330.029,"end":349.557,"text":"我並不是只要去追查預算在做宣傳部分不然可能又開倒車對不對所以我的意思是說我們更讓更多人知道宣傳的方法對對對好謝謝好那我們來看下一題喔真的時間有限來關於淹水的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員已經講了那我來跟就等於我來跟洪孟凱委員分享也跟主委分享到底我們國科會還可以做些什麼"},{"start":350.217,"end":370.08,"text":"國科會的災防中心我們來看一下先要感謝災防中心同仁在這一次颱風風災的努力發出了非常多的細胞廣播簡訊提醒大家那根據國科會給我們的資料裏面這一次颱風總共發出了728則簡訊其中最大量的是農業部的土石流警戒我覺得這非常重要"},{"start":370.64,"end":390.971,"text":"可是剛剛侯孟愷委員也說了北海岸來說當天氣象署已經發布了5則大雷雨的訊息可是回過來看大雷雨之餘淹水可能不是台灣人民所習慣的想像甚至可能來不及理解所以我們在想這一次淹水災防中心的通知樣態並不含淹水"},{"start":392.992,"end":421.126,"text":"那我跟主委報告我們自己做了解方請主委評估有沒有可行其實在水利署的網站上面我們來看一下左邊這一張他告訴我們哪裡有淹水這個是淹水警訊的部分甚至水利署他可以讓一般的人去註冊一個賬號然後登入你的手機登入你的地址如果你所住的地區有淹水的可能他會發簡訊通知你這個是水利署已經做好的事情那可是這一次災防中心跟國科會這個連結可不可以有機會把這個東西連結起來"},{"start":422.907,"end":440.481,"text":"可以,我們會做好,太好了,那我就不用多說如果國科會主委這邊覺得是可以做那甚至是跟地方政府積極的合作因為如果我要登錄簡訊手機號碼才能夠被告知可是明明左半邊整體的淹水警訊已經有了那這個會不會很難做,主委?"},{"start":441.34,"end":456.8,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":457.133,"end":480.271,"text":"我們讓後面的跟委員報告一下其實我們在10月3日那一天所發布的所有警報我們都有透過LINE的官方帳號我們LINE的官方帳號有167萬的定位人數但是因為我們的災防中心目前細胞警訊沒有含到這個淹水的部分細胞的部分就有水利署因為它是主責單位所以水利署會發出去我們並不是主責單位"},{"start":480.811,"end":495.448,"text":"可是他可不可以連結到你們那個災防中心共同發放的訊息裡面可以嘛對不對我當然知道水利署有在做所以我說我們自己有做的功課好不好那不要讓我們民眾一邊在防災的時候還要自己上網查說我自己是不是那邊水的地方"},{"start":496.548,"end":522.844,"text":"謝謝委員我們把整個系統合起來就好了嘛都已經既有的系統所以我們簡單整理一下我們今天要求的部分包含性品的世界我們希望追回獎項這個事情要開始討論還有把文化投資作為ESG的可能性還有科普的宣傳請更加的用力還有最後災防細胞廣播簡訊把淹水的部分放下去做一個系統的整合好非常感謝委員好那我們的時間我們後續相關一個月三個月部分我們辦公室會追蹤也拜託國科會好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":526.479,"end":527.426,"text":"好 謝謝培瑜委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:53:47 - 10:02:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155276","gazette":{"lineno":228,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時53分）好，謝謝主席。有請主委。"],["主席：好，我們有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安。關於性平零容忍的部分，我們看到國科會今天的業務報告裡面有修正一個要點，非常感謝國科會做這個事情。我們看到你們在112年11月6號國科會相關研究計畫要點第二十六條新增了違反性平就會終止補助的規定，我覺得這個很好！但是我要跟主委說，你們其實還可以做得更多，行政院昨天有發文，行政院針對行政院文化獎，做出了修正，他們甚至說可以撤銷廢止追回獎項的條件。我們來看文化部，文化部在去年發生非常多性平事件之後，他們做了全面性的法規盤點，甚至要求可以終止、追回、撤銷補助獎項。","好，那我們來看一下，主委，在國科會底下有非常多的獎項，我們條列一下：總統科學獎、行政院傑出科技貢獻獎、傑出研究獎、吳大猷先生紀念獎、未來科技獎，我不是無中生有。主委，我們來看一下，去年有一個記者會談了性平案件，其中指控案件的當事人所指控的那位教授就是得到國科會未來科技獎，這個事件還在調查當中，但是我想要問，國科會可不可以積極地把相關機制建立起來；也就是說，不要只有所謂的終止補助，甚至可以追回獎項！我覺得這個是非常重要的事情，主委，可不可以簡單回復一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，非常感謝陳委員提醒。有關這些獎項，如果違反性平法的事實已經確定的話，是不是要追回這個獎項，我們會審慎研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：我希望一個月內收到回復報告。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委。我們再來看一下園區的部分，其實三個科學園區都有在談永續這件事情，非常感謝。企業的社會責任，不管是SDGs、ESG，都有相關的手段跟目標。可是我們來看一下，目前園區所整理的工作事項有這麼多，我就不一一念了。看得出來，園區跟廠商在環境永續上都非常的努力，可是我想要跟主委談另外一個觀點，其實永續不是只有環保、不是只有環境，在社會跟文化資源的投入也可以是一個相關的方法。我跟主委分享，去年證交所已經修正上市上櫃公司永續發展實務守則，跟企業說，經由捐贈、贊助、投資、採購、策略合作的支持模式，可以要求企業把相關資源挹注在文化藝術活動，甚至是文化創意產業，納入維護社會公益的範疇。另外，在112年度第10屆公司治理評鑑指標裡面，也把公司如果可以投入資源支持臺灣國內的文化發展，把相關的支持方法跟成果揭露，還可以在公司治理評鑑得分，這個是從商業的角度來看。我們是不是可以直接跟國科會許願？給國科會一些時間，跟園區或是相關的廠商討論，可不可以把相關文化的投資做為談永續跟ESG很重要的一環？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我非常同意陳委員的觀點，我想在各個園區管理局，也許可以設立這樣的評鑑機制，把這個項目也加進來，其實科技產業所有廠商也真的是在努力朝這個方向走。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。因為我時間有限，我就沒有辦法分享，可是臺灣這幾年只要談到任何跟文化產業有關的，都非常喜歡學韓國。我就跟主委報告，韓國在影視音，甚至是書籍出版，也就是靜態跟動態都跟企業有大力的合作，這件事情我覺得臺灣如果要學，那乾脆在企業部分多學一點，好不好？這個部分可不可以請國科會或者是園區在三個月內給出回復？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們三個月內給委員回復。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且我們希望那個回復是正向跟積極的，不要說再研議好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，一定正向，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委。我們來看下一個，謝謝。","感謝主委，國科會非常積極推動科普這件事情，不管是KIDS' SCIENCE或是KISS SCIENCE的起跑活動，甚至相關後續活動我就不再贅述，不過真的感謝國科會。如果以整個10月份來看，中研院有open house，還有諾貝爾獎得獎公布，國科會有創新技術博覽會，如果我的想像是整個10月都可以是臺灣的小孩科技月，那該有多好！對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這次的KISS SCIENCE做不好的我們要指正，可是做得好的我們要鼓勵，包含了故宮、農業部、高速網路中心、史前館，大家做的圖卡跟相關資訊真的有站在理解小孩的立場，我要再次感謝國科會。可是我覺得很可惜，這麼好的活動，我們來看宣傳的部分，國科會說你們的宣傳是有記者會、啟動典禮、海報跟公文，還有社群媒體，可是我們來看歷史悠久的open house，他們為了宣傳相關的活動，讓更多人來參與，他們做了非常非常多的事情，可能也沒有花太多錢，所以請主委不要誤會。我想要拜託國科會，KISS SCIENCE既然做了這麼多好的活動，在宣傳的部分可不可以更用力、更大力讓更多人參與這個事情？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝陳委員提醒，以後我們要注意，多宣傳，讓更多小朋友可以受益。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我並不是只要追加預算在宣傳的部分，不然可能又開倒車，對不對？我的意思是要讓更多人知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是宣傳的方法。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，謝謝。我們來看下一題，真的是時間有限。關於淹水的部分，剛剛洪孟楷委員已經講了，那就是等於我來跟洪孟楷委員分享，也跟主委分享，到底國科會還可以做些什麼？我們先要感謝國科會災防中心同仁在這一次颱風風災的努力，發出非常多細胞廣播簡訊提醒大家。根據國科會給我們的資料，這一次颱風總共發出了728則簡訊，其中最大量的是農業部的土石流警戒，我覺得這非常重要，可是剛剛洪孟楷委員也說了，以北海岸來說，當天氣象署已經發布了5則大雷雨的訊息。可是回過來看，大雷雨之於淹水，可能不是臺灣人民所習慣的想像，甚至可能來不及理解，所以我們在想這一次淹水，災防中心的通知樣態並不含淹水，我跟主委報告，我們自己做了解方，請主委評估有沒有可行。其實在水利署的網站上面，我們來看一下左邊這一張，它告訴我們哪裡有淹水，這個是淹水警訊，甚至水利署可以讓一般人去註冊帳號，然後登入你的手機、登入你的地址，如果你所住的地區有淹水的可能，它會發簡訊通知你，這個是水利署已經做好的事情，可是災防中心跟國科會可不可以有機會把這個東西連結起來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以，我們會做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了，那我就不用多說。如果國科會主委覺得可以做，甚至是跟地方政府積極的合作，卻要登入手機號碼才能夠被告知，可是明明左半邊整體的淹水警訊已經有了，這會不會很難做？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會，其實災防中心在易淹水地區評估可能會淹水的技術都已經發展出來了，所以很謝謝委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：是、是，但是災防中心細胞簡訊的連結是有可能做到的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，有可能做到。"],["陳委員培瑜：也許一個月內就可以完成，我們讓後面的……"],["陳主任宏宇：跟委員報告，其實在10月3號那一天發布的所有警報，我們都有透過LINE的官方帳號，我們LINE的官方帳號有167萬的訂閱人數，所以……"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我們目前災防中心細胞簡訊沒有含到淹水的部分。"],["陳主任宏宇：細胞的部分就由水利署，因為它是主責單位，所以水利署會發出去，我們並不是主責單位……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是它可不可以連結到災防中心共同發放的訊息裡面？"],["陳主任宏宇：可以、可以，沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以嘛！對不對？"],["陳主任宏宇：是、是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我當然知道水利署有在做，所以我說我們自己有做了功課。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會把它連結起來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好不好？不要讓民眾一邊在防災，一邊還要自己上網查我這裡是不是淹水的地方，這樣好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員建議。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們把整個系統合起來就好了嘛！都已經是既有的系統，所以我簡單整理一下我們今天要求的部分，包含性平的事件，我們希望追回獎項這個事情要開始討論，還有把文化投資作為ESG的可能性，還有科普的宣傳請更加用力，最後，災防細胞廣播簡訊把淹水的部分放下去，做一個系統的整合。"],["吳主任委員誠文：非常感謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們的時間，後續相關一個月、三個月的部分，我們辦公室會追蹤，也拜託國科會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝培瑜委員。","接下來，我們有請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:09:24","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:58:42+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155275","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","duration":564,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:49:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a57676dafc1ed9ee5b46d19fd1690e0d4f248570de51b9a932f3849b7c75922ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.04221875,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.875968750000002,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.32721875,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.01909375,"end":24.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.398468750000003,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.69346875,"end":27.047843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.047843750000002,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.18284375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.86471875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.15534375,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.195968750000006,"end":52.360343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.596593750000004,"end":57.237218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.76471875,"end":57.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.99659375,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.03034375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":61.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.59971875,"end":62.789093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.384093750000005,"end":65.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.48096875,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.17159375,"end":72.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.86346875000001,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.65659375,"end":78.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.12409375,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.93596875,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.86284375000001,"end":105.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.56721875000001,"end":107.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.50784375,"end":108.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.31346875000001,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.19096875,"end":140.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.95409375,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.51346875000002,"end":153.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.70721875,"end":155.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.44971875000002,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.31284375,"end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就會影響你們的作業我想跟委員說明這個是要先跟部長講清楚我要跟委員說明喔延續性的是可以繼續執行但是新增的新增的計畫還有新興的計畫"},{"start":51.203,"end":51.363,"text":"委員會理念"},{"start":73.695,"end":78.558,"text":"部長今天是你們的夜報那夜報的話本身就要跟你先講清楚一下"},{"start":104.135,"end":121.588,"text":"進口雞蛋這個標示這個期限是假的期限誤導我們的民眾還有就是把這個進口雞蛋做成蛋液還跟我們的標示地產地也標示成台灣這些爭議讓民眾對於這食安有很大的疑慮"},{"start":122.449,"end":122.469,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":141.058,"end":163.073,"text":"可是你8月份就跟他有合作關係而且沒有合約內容就是用電話議價就給他們做了在這種情形之下發生這個疑慮之下部長你還幫他護航但是現在檢調單位開始已經調查了那如果說調查出他確實罪證確鑿有違法你會再為他們護航"},{"start":167.369,"end":195.136,"text":"不過我想跟委員說明齁你剛剛所提到的資訊齁把111年跟112年齁混在一起講112年的時候超私是有合約的那個時候外界質疑說超私一人公司沒有能力去組織別說你是跟量財有合約那量財的時候是3到5月的時候後來你跟超私超私是8月到11月但是8月他超私還沒有成立所以"},{"start":195.876,"end":196.036,"text":"社會大眾一個一個"},{"start":225.252,"end":246.843,"text":"公開的一個真相也要如果說你沒有的話也會還你公道要真相給社會交代好不好那最重要是因為當時在這個量產的時候你給他的這個每顆雞蛋是6.9元到了超市的時候你就給他7.39元這個是不是有圖列清醒為什麼一個3到5月一個是8到11月"},{"start":247.861,"end":264.14,"text":"不過我想整個的一個一個程序其實檢調在調查那針對3到5月的價格跟8到11月的價格會不一樣因為我們是用買斷的方式不是用合約的方式那價格的差異到底差合不合理因為也要考慮到當時的這些"},{"start":265.441,"end":289.612,"text":"你當時的價格是這個同年度一個3到5月你現在差不到幾個月你價格就變動了是沒有福利嗎111年的時候那禽流感的時候在111年9月以後那個是日本包括日本也大爆發所以那個時候的價格我們現在沒辦法回應3到5月你的合約的價格跟到8到11月的合約這差到是111年的事情嗎所以你要據時針對這所有的情形"},{"start":290.692,"end":296.896,"text":"本席是跟部長講說現在這個雞蛋你不是這個價格的問題你還有的就是處理這個過期這個銷毀的雞蛋5429萬顆雞蛋你花了5億2997萬元這些都是你花費出去的不管你冷凍鏈你的運輸你的這個銷毀的都花了這些錢你當時為什麼沒有事先掌握整個需求"},{"start":317.367,"end":327.021,"text":"民間的去跟國外購買的或是你們政府去賞會去購買的這整體的總需求量你們都沒有控管白白花掉這些國人民的公帑呢"},{"start":328.229,"end":353.494,"text":"我跟委員說明齁當初在整個蛋荒的時候是全球都缺雞蛋那個在那個時間點不知道那個疫情會延到多久所以在整個的採購的過程中有一部分是當作部長不能推脫職責不能知道疫情會多久但是你知道每天的供需量啊每天供需量你的緩衝期的是3個月需要多少量這可以統整出來的雞蛋有它的期限欸"},{"start":354.674,"end":364.341,"text":"所以你們都是非常在農業部這個整個當任這麼久的公職工作非常清楚整個產業的需求沒有掌握住這個"},{"start":388.615,"end":409.86,"text":"國土計畫法在明年就要執行了,在我們農業整個的發展跟需求上,部長你們這邊有沒有什麼配套的措施嗎?我想我要跟委員說明,就是國土計畫它其實它的原來的國土規劃就是對農業來講就是避免農地的破碎化"},{"start":410.76,"end":429.049,"text":"但是現在外界一直把國土計畫要不要送到那個內政部來審都要看我們的農業的配套資源什麼時候提出來那我在外已經跟外界講了農業資源的投入不會因為國土計畫如期或是延後而改變"},{"start":429.969,"end":432.87,"text":"這個為什麼會請教你就是因為很多我們的農地從農一到農五他的很多的規劃還有特定農地的就等等"},{"start":445.316,"end":474.667,"text":"﹚議員："},{"start":474.767,"end":474.787,"text":"：呂玲"},{"start":504.833,"end":529.973,"text":"我跟委員說明,我還是說一句就是我們的農業的堆疊式給付是我們為了讓我們的農營首遍堆地農地的一個貢獻那有關於您剛才講的就是桃園大溪谷裡面有些地要去做變更那相對在國土計畫裡面它也有相關的規範所以我們後續會持續跟縣市府做溝通國土計畫不是絕對的值就是農業要多少、農業要多少"},{"start":530.433,"end":530.613,"text":"李玉玲委員"},{"start":561.656,"end":561.756,"text":"部長請會座"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:49:18 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月理分院分院長報告有關於委員剛剛提到護理的這個護病比確實玉里地區是完全符合我們三家院目前都符合這個地區醫院的低於15%的這個比例那目前剛剛委員提到的就是有關於津貼的問題那確實在這個醫院裡面不同的這個病房可能他會受到一些相關的限制那但是目前"},{"start":195.077,"end":213.609,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":213.809,"end":230.188,"text":"報告沈委員我榮總陳維銘那花東的問題我們是都完全感同身受因為現在我們國人平均壽命臺東是倒數第一名花蓮倒數第三名那比臺北差了臺東差了7點多歲花蓮將近6歲"},{"start":233.231,"end":249.537,"text":"那這個是我們所有醫療體系都有責任來幫助這件事情不過受了0403的地震0725的楷米颱風很多同仁要到花蓮台東支援就家長反對打退堂鼓所以我們在小禹大義鼓勵這些人不惜就是用升遷"},{"start":250.737,"end":272.299,"text":"保證你可以回來當組織醫師鼓勵他們去那加上跟臺東馬歇醫院區域聯防跟門諾醫院一個在南一個在北現在達成協議區域聯防讓如果交通有問題的時候可以及時幫我們支援那我大膽的提出一個事情向政府提出來是一個東寶生跟花寶生的事情"},{"start":273.2,"end":292.966,"text":"因為我們的金寶生進門現在做得不錯那如果有東寶生因為現在天災不斷東寶生花寶生保障更多的公費生到花園去然後花蓮的典職台東的典職健保署給他保障我相信會有更多優秀的醫事人員願意到花東去我退休我都願意去"},{"start":293.966,"end":315.815,"text":"那這個是一個大家共同來努力來幫助我們的花東我在健康台灣委員會也向總統提出來我們要盡量努力起來幫助我們花東的居民讓我們的平均壽命可以拉上來臺北榮總也會全力給我們花東三院支援給他們人力那我們會再不責損因為有時候榮總是公務體系"},{"start":317.876,"end":334.228,"text":"我剛說 強迫你到花蓮去 我不幹了 我要離職了因為你沒有強迫的力量 只能小雨大雨鼓勵用聲籤讓他磨練當誘因所以現在送了一個很優秀的陳一群這個知性天才去接副院長他很快就會把他帶起來"},{"start":335.109,"end":362.984,"text":"現在臺東副院長也會找一個很優秀的人過去我們希望用好的人力去幫助他們向沈委員報告我們會努力好 謝謝這個東寶花寶相關的如果說能夠推動的話對我們來講當然會是一個很大的注意那當然就是說這個我後面才會問到一些跟醫生有關但因為剛剛主委也有提到醫生的部分就是說當然剛剛有提到這個健保點子的問題就是說在育理當地就是說它有一些這個也是跟獎金有關"},{"start":363.604,"end":384.395,"text":"那在獎金的發放因為現在說真的他的人事費我們調資料看起來還是稍微比較降低的服務費是越來越高但服務費高其實也不是什麼問題但重點就是那個獎金的部分所以我有看到不管是精神科醫師內外科醫師真的是有出走的問題所以呢就像剛剛這一個院長提到如果說這個出走的問題能夠解決的話會真的很重要"},{"start":385.155,"end":401.586,"text":"我看到他們現在有時候會去跟門諾調醫生有時候要跟這個衛生局調醫生那這真的會造成當地的這個醫療資源的短缺啦好 謝謝那這個呢再來就是因為我稍微看了一下預算就是說當然除了我說過這個榮業有賺錢這個當然是可以去協助獎金啦"},{"start":404.808,"end":420.595,"text":"我看到這個個容院在當時這個在預算的裡面其實好像有提到說能夠增聘醫護人力的一個規劃所以這部分的規劃是否也能夠稍微說明一下雖然現在預算被擋了所以有點尷尬但是就是目前在這個預算的狀況之下本來的計畫是什麼"},{"start":425.587,"end":449.223,"text":"報告委員我是就醫處處長劉俊正那跟委員報告目前的這個護病比的部分我們在今年8月份去做一個全面的檢視我們是符合標準的那比較缺乏的是大小業的部分那我想護理的人力應該是全國的問題那我們的輔導會也不斷的在想辦法去解決人力的一個人力荒所以目前我們已經奉行政院核定在114年明年開始的連續3年我們整個輔導會體系會擴編506人就是整個醫護的團隊"},{"start":455.027,"end":483.473,"text":"那護理師的部分會有376人來彌補各個醫院的這個職缺所以到時候我們的這個公職護理師的比例應該可以到4成6以上這部分我想委員的關切我們非常注意到謝謝目前跟委員報告我們採取的一些措施就提高起薪然後積極跟各大戰略校招募護理人才護理人力然後也爭取護理公職員額鼓勵他們退休之後能夠回來能夠回來採取這些措施"},{"start":484.173,"end":507.516,"text":"然後另外我們也提供委員府官員留院獎金然後調生夜班費這些配合軍方要的調薪能夠醫病來做然後增加他們的工作意願相關一些配套措施各種院都在做好 謝謝所以我想重整兩個層次第一個當然就是預算本身的編列跟這個時程剛剛已經有他本來就在那我們當然盡力希望是能夠這個預算能夠通過因為現在預算被卡在那邊"},{"start":508.097,"end":510.278,"text":"實踐的關係我再稍微問一個小小的跟那個這個職業職壓發展有關的其實我在這一個那個報告裡面有看到這個"},{"start":529.807,"end":531.589,"text":"我們這次的軍民專長的衍接系統是新開發的系統"},{"start":557.83,"end":574.068,"text":"我個人在行政院辦的高階文官獎金裡面有一個AI的智慧學校上課我覺得有很多地方可以請他們做指導所以我們這個系統我就指導我們的事業處將來把這個系統要導入AI"},{"start":576.651,"end":590.65,"text":"這系統在這個系統裡面它扮演什麼角色就是大數據的分析那它把這個我們軍職它有些什麼專長把它輸進去第二個就是勞動部職能基準有哪些第三個是就業百科"},{"start":591.391,"end":591.571,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":610.566,"end":622.879,"text":"致電導向：他還學什麼課程都在這個裏面然後直接的媒合所以這個系統將來115年你開放之後我想會有幫助跟委員這說你謝謝因為這個職業發展我覺得我個人是覺得這個對退服會是非常重要的一個業務"},{"start":627.904,"end":628.204,"text":"主席主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:42:36 - 09:53:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155274","gazette":{"lineno":179,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時42分）謝謝主席，有請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：主委好，退輔會今年來得比較多次一點，通常來講，上個會期我問了比較多跟退將有關的問題，我今天最主要是再次問就業輔導，然後前面會問一些醫療人力的問題。","目前整個醫療體系從臺北榮民總醫院到中榮、到高雄、到屏東，因為我現在在花蓮的時間比較多，臺北榮民總醫院有玉里分院和鳳林分院，鳳林分院現在狀況真的……","我等一下會想多問一些跟玉里分院有關的事情，在這之前我想問一下，之前我們看到衛福部有公布一個比較新的護病比，地區醫院是白班1：10、小夜1：13、大夜1：15，我知道以現在的榮民醫院來講其實是有符合的，問題是我也看到大部分的人對於這個新上路的護病比還是有很多意見。我最想問的就是地區醫院的部分，因為目前衛福部依照不同層級醫院發放的夜班獎勵是有不同的，地區醫院的獎勵比較低，但護病比卻比較高，導致護理人員流動到護病比比較低、獎勵金比較高的醫學中心，尤其在花蓮有很多這種地區型的醫院。我知道這當然跟衛福部的政策有關係，畢竟以退輔會的角度來講，榮民總醫院本身是有預算的，也有一定程度的盈利，所以不知道有沒有可能去補足？當然，我們還會再去跟衛福部溝通，說這個應不應該更改，但目前在這個制度之下，有沒有辦法去補足這一塊，讓地區醫院的獎勵可以比較高一點，同時讓護病比可以稍微做一些改變？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，我們退輔會所屬各級榮院整體的醫師人力是符合醫療機構設置標準跟醫院評鑑基準的，各級榮院在8月份正職醫師的空缺率平均大概是0.41，這也符合行政院人事行政總處低於4%的規定。以上就整個大的前提先跟委員報告，委員所關心的有關花東地區玉里分院這一塊，我請我們玉里分院院長詳細跟委員說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。"],["胡院長宗明：委員好，玉里分院分院長報告。關於委員剛剛提到的護病比，玉里地區確實完全符合，我們三家醫院目前都符合地區醫院低於15%的比率。剛剛委員還提到有關津貼的問題，在醫院裡面，不同的病房確實可能會受到一些相關的限制，但是目前玉里醫院護理人員的薪水是比同儕高的。我們因應相關的議題，目前也有在做明年調薪的相關準備，會因應市場的行情做一個適度的調整。以上。"],["陳院長威明：報告沈委員，我是榮總陳威明。花東的問題我們完全感同身受，因為現在國人平均壽命臺東是倒數第一名，花蓮是倒數第三名，臺東比臺北差了七點多歲，花蓮差了將近6歲，這是我們所有醫療體系都有責任來提供幫助的。不過因為0403地震和0725凱米颱風，很多同仁要到花蓮、臺東支援，結果因為家長反對而打退堂鼓，所以我們現在曉以大義，為了鼓勵這些人，不惜用升遷，保證你可以回來當主治醫師，鼓勵他們去，加上跟臺東馬偕醫院還有門諾醫院區域聯防，一個在南、一個在北，我們達成協議進行區域聯防，當交通有問題的時候，可以及時幫我們支援。","我大膽地向政府提出東保生和花保生的事情，因為我們的金保生、金門現在做得不錯，現在天災不斷，如果有東保生、花保生，保障更多的公費生到花蓮去，然後花蓮的點值、臺東的點值由健保署給他們保障，我相信會有更多優秀的醫事人員願意到花東去，我退休，我都願意去。這是大家共同來努力、來幫助我們的花東。我在健康台灣推動委員會也向總統提出來，我們要儘量努力，一起來幫助花東的居民，讓我們的平均壽命可以拉上來。","臺北榮總也會全力給花東三院支援，給他們人力，我們會在不折損……因為榮總是公務體系，我如果強迫人家到花蓮去，他說不定就離職不幹了，所以我們沒有強迫的力量，只能曉以大義，用升遷當鼓勵、磨練當誘因，所以現在送了一個很優秀的資訊天才陳育群去接玉里分院的副院長，他很快就會把它帶起來，接下來臺東分院的副院長也會找一個很優秀的人過去，我們希望用好的人力去幫助他們。向沈委員報告，我們會努力！"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。和東保、花保相關的，如果能夠推動的話，對我們來講當然會是一個很大的助益。","我後面才會問到一些跟醫生有關的問題，不過剛剛主委也有提到醫生的部分，當然，剛剛也有提到健保點值，而在玉里當地也有一些和獎金有關的問題。在獎金發放方面，因為現在說真的，根據我們所調的資料，它的人事費還是有稍微、比較降低的，服務費則越來越高，服務費高其實也不是什麼問題，但重點就是那個獎金的部分，所以我們有看到不管精神科醫師或內、外科醫師真的是有出走的問題，就像剛剛院長提到的，如果出走的問題能夠解決的話，這真的很重要，不然我看到他們現在有時候要去跟門諾醫院調醫生，有時候要去跟衛生局調醫生，這樣真的會造成當地醫療資源的短缺啦！好，謝謝。","再來就是因為我稍微看了一下預算，除了我說過榮院有賺錢當然可以用來協助獎金發放，但是我看到各榮院在預算書裡面好像有提到增聘醫護人力的規劃，請問這部分的規劃是否也能夠稍微說明一下？雖然現在預算審查被擋了，所以有點尷尬，但是在目前這個預算的狀況之下，本來的計畫是什麼？"],["劉處長峻正：報告委員，我是就醫處處長劉峻正。跟委員報告，護病比的部分我們在今年8月份做了一個全面的檢視，我們是符合標準的，比較缺乏的是大小夜的部分，我想護理的人力應該是全國的問題，我們輔導會也不斷地在想辦法去解決人力荒，所以目前我們已經奉行政院核定，在114年（明年）開始的連續三年，我們整個輔導會體系會擴編506人，也就是整個醫護的團隊，護理師的部分會有376人來彌補各個醫院的職缺，所以到時候我們公職護理師的比例應該可以到四成六以上。這部分，我想委員的關切，我們都非常注意，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，目前我們採取的一些措施，就提高起薪，然後積極跟各大專院校招募護理人才、護理人力，也爭取護理公職員額，鼓勵他們退休之後能夠回來，採取這些措施。另外我們也提供委員所關心的留任獎金，然後調升夜班費，這些配合軍公教的調薪，能夠一併來做，增加他們的工作意願，相關一些配套措施，各總院都在做。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，所以我想綜整兩個層次，第一個，當然就是預算本身的編列跟時程，剛剛已經有，它本來就在，我們當然盡力，希望這個預算能夠通過，因為現在預算被卡在那邊。第二個，當然就是執行，因為就算有這個計畫，人到底願不願意過去，這是一個問題，所以獎金、什麼等等之類的，這個制度上要存在，不然的話，我看人一直在流失。","因為時間的關係，我再稍微問一個小小的問題，跟職涯發展有關的。其實我在報告裡面有看到AI的運用，因為有軍民專長轉銜對照表，我就看到這個業務報告裡面提到，透過AI運用技術，提供職缺媒合、職能導向的課程。但因為我對於AI要怎麼做到這件事情有點好奇，所以是不是可以稍微說明一下？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我跟委員報告、補充一下，我們這次的軍民專長銜接系統是新開發的系統，因為我個人在行政院辦的高階文官講習裡面的一個AI智慧學校上課，我覺得很多地方可以請他們做指導，所以這個系統，我們就指導我們的事業處將來把這個系統要導入AI，而AI系統在這個系統裡面，它扮演什麼角色？這個就是大數據的分析，它把我們軍職有些什麼專長，把它輸入進去；第二個就是勞動部職能基準有哪些；第三個是就業百科。這些資訊通通進去，透過AI系統大數據的比對分析，產生一些結果，最後有一個平臺，讓需要的人、謀職的人去點選，他很快就可以知道他可以獲得一些什麼，將來他轉職可以轉什麼職的建議，然後職能導向，他還要學什麼課程，這些都在這裡面，然後直接媒合。所以這個系統將來在115年底開放之後，我想會有幫助，跟委員說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，因為職涯的發展，我個人是覺得這個對退輔會是非常重要的一個業務，所以如果有機會，未來看能不能夠有機會demo，因為大數據的分析跟AI畢竟還是不太一樣，它能夠做大數據的分析，我猜想應該是沒什麼問題，但是它AI的成分在哪裡？第一個，我當然想要了解，但是如果它真的能夠發揮功效的話，對貴會是一個很大的幫助。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為時間的關係，先問到這邊。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，主委請回。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:09:21","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:53:22+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155273","委員名稱":"柯志恩","duration":561,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:44:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a5a705125e114f0c14cc4e7309f7945e5f248570de51b9a93bfcdbd1d32fe68635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":7.287218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.223468750000002,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.99971875,"end":51.955343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.73659375,"end":21.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.84159375,"end":24.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.672218750000006,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.72034375,"end":76.9809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ext":"主委說的算"},{"start":151.474,"end":152.975,"text":"您的諮詢委員的整個背景滿滿的台灣價值然後我們再看他後面的部分裡面來怎麼做您所給的這個部分裡面你的人事費佔了2500多萬"},{"start":171.408,"end":192.978,"text":"﹗"},{"start":192.978,"end":193.158,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":213.448,"end":240.346,"text":"也是下任之後馬上當上顧問然後這又是他任內隱若所合推的所謂的推動計畫主委說的算我先請問一下吳主委你現在有推動計畫嗎你框了多少錢我自己沒有做這種啊你都不知道這個巧門是不是主委框了一下就可以這麼多錢下來我接任以後我的原則是國科會所有的重大的計畫一定要按照"},{"start":242.327,"end":246.47,"text":"每年我們再來看一下嘛如果這些人雖然有背景但是很會做我也沒意見但是呢一年4800萬當中目前為止你上他的dest網站你的dest網站政策報告裡面的三篇其他都是專家評論我花了4800萬錢我要來這些東西然後我請你們給我這些訊息你們告訴我目前還在整理當中"},{"start":265.205,"end":273.39,"text":"一百一十二年四千多一百一十三年四千多我到現在一一百一十四年我還要四千八百萬你給我這些這些中研院做不出來嗎臺大臺金教做不出來嗎"},{"start":276.57,"end":286.941,"text":"主委我今天為什麼會這麼生氣同樣來自學界我們有多少專任教師兩三千個人又要做研究又要做計劃還要SSC還要TTSC還要SCI還要IE什麼都要做結果呢完全擠不上你們這邊隨便一口一手一框然後有這麼多背景的然後呢"},{"start":296.971,"end":297.331,"text":"國立政治大學大同大學"},{"start":320.046,"end":343.813,"text":"他是要做什麼?他要做一些相關的案件案件當中他要轉手給你們的國研院的科證中心來做處理這是如何?你把這個4800多萬的計畫當中你框出2000多大同大學大同大學再回首再把他一些相關的案件裡面有關徵件辦法跟政案的活動辦法又框回去給你們的科證中心"},{"start":344.773,"end":373.542,"text":"左手過來右手轉出去你難道都不知道你們國科的計畫是這樣給的嗎這個不是我是代表所有年輕學子當他沾不上這些邊當林倩琪委員在講到說公私利的中心補助的這個不均衡你們是這樣來給錢的你覺得你對得起所有的國內的年輕學子嗎謝謝柯委員我會來仔細瞭解一下這個計畫你光是這個部分你就覺得是非常的荒謬好不好框出去又框回來你是在幹什麼"},{"start":375.39,"end":376.311,"text":"我會了解一下,謝謝委員,我一定會改善這個做法以後不要再發言我答應柯委員"},{"start":403.933,"end":405.723,"text":"這些不合理的事情我一定要改善"},{"start":406.562,"end":432.539,"text":"當然是要改善啊否則我還是一句話我相信這都不是你在任內的但是我剛給你條列出來的一定是非常多人看不下去的太多年輕的學者當他們積極再去做研究都沾不上你們關愛眼神的時候你卻是大把大把藏舵這些人可以做這些事但是呢你用那麼多那麼多都是有同樣背景的我覺得國科會撐不起這樣子大家對你們的批判啊"},{"start":436.141,"end":436.201,"text":"謝謝科學委員"},{"start":461.106,"end":466.936,"text":"報告科學委員這個架構我已經把它改掉了我們現在符合行政院通過的組織法"},{"start":467.682,"end":497.371,"text":"你就是不要疊牆教育我相信你好問題是我還是要批判一下來樂安阿你這個雖然是把它改掉了你這個AI行動2.0你的預算你這樣看起來執行度抱歉您國科會實在是你知道你的執行進度只有27.73你跟其他部分比起來你們真的還是落後的主委你要不要督促一下不要告訴我這是第二期而已你們會在最後年中的時候趕上國科會應該帶頭做起你們跟其他部會比起來你們27是最低的這是你們的計劃好不好"},{"start":499.172,"end":518.859,"text":"好,我們會改善你今天都告訴我你們會改善針對我剛剛所講的民脂民膏一年4800多萬他應該是完全需要接受我們國會的監督同樣的,非常多裡面的你們國會已經有太多太多在做很多不同的補助"},{"start":519.839,"end":521.381,"text":"我會了解以後我會改善那一定會向科委員報告"},{"start":537.469,"end":537.729,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:44:01 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09:53:22","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155273","gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時44分）謝謝召委，我們請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。主委你是來自學界，你也待過公務系統，所以你應該非常清楚知道，科學應該跟政治區隔，應該維持非常大的學術中立吧！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["柯委員志恩：國科會應該算是最後的一塊淨土了。我們來看一個研究計畫，這邊有一個研究計畫是114年度的智慧創新研究計畫，這是10.45億。這下面有一個是先進科技研究、民主與社會，大概編了5.96億，這下面還有一個，即第三個，就是本席今天要特別focus的科技、民主與社會研究中心計畫，大概是4,800萬，沒錯吧？主委，你應該知道這個計畫。我先告訴各位，112年編了4,800萬，113年編了4,800萬，委託政大來執行，但是又有一個諮詢委員會來決策。各位，由政大來執行，但有一個諮詢委員會來決策，我們先看一下諮詢委員是哪些人？主委，如果告訴我這是賴清德國政白皮書的成員，可以；民進黨的智庫，可以，這個每年要花4,800萬元民脂民膏諮詢團隊的公約數是什麼？來看一下公約數是什麼？7個諮詢委員當中有5個都是來自綠營的相關單位，這些海外研究員包括島國前進發起人吳釗燮的兒子、陳為廷是政策研究員，這是每年花4,800萬元的諮詢委員團隊，你知道這件事嗎？所以別人在以核養綠的時候，國科會在以科養綠嗎？你要不要解釋一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我實在解釋不出來，我請同仁來解釋一下。"],["柯委員志恩：你為什麼解釋不出來？主委，我只是告訴你，從剛剛開始，這個是推動的計畫。我剛剛問了一下，像一般學者要來執行國科會計畫，都要透過非常公開審核的標準，這個叫做推動計畫，主委說了算。你要匡多少錢、你要給怎麼樣，推動計畫，你說了算。我認為要培養海外的人力，沒有問題，但是諮詢委員的整個背景，滿滿的臺灣價值，然後我們再看裡面怎麼做，裡面人事費占了二千五百多萬，幾乎是整個計畫的53%。你給海外學子，沒有問題，但是你不覺得所給予的背景太多雷同嗎？你怎麼告訴我，這是多元的？而且在這樣每一年4,800萬的計畫當中，裡面有這麼多的人事費，給很多的海外學子，但是遴選標準是什麼？你當然可以回應我是來自於計畫主持人說了算，我真的要問一下，計畫主持人是用什麼樣的標準來評選這些？而且國科會以前有千里馬計畫、LIFT，都有很多補充海外學子的部分，這些又涵蓋在這樣所謂科技、民主的計畫，然後前主委也是卸任之後馬上當上顧問，然後這又是他任內所推動計畫，主委說了算。我先請問一下吳主委，你知道有推動計畫嗎？你匡了多少錢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我自己沒有做這種。"],["柯委員志恩：你都不知道這個巧門，是不是？主委匡了一下就可以有這麼多錢下來。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我接任以後，我的原則是國科會所有的重大計畫一定要按照程序來進行。"],["柯委員志恩：我們再來看一下，如果這些人雖然有背景，但是很會做，我也沒意見，但是一年4,800萬當中，目前為止，上你們的DSET網站，政策報告只有3篇，其他都是專家評論。花了4,800萬要來這些東西，然後我請你們給我這些訊息，你們告訴我目前還在整理當中。112年四千多、113年四千多，到現在114年還要4,800萬，你給我這些，這些中研院做不出來嗎？臺清交做不出來嗎？","主委，我今天為什麼會這麼生氣？同樣來自學界，我們有多少專任教師，兩、三千個人又要做研究，又要做計畫，還要SSCI，還要TSSCI，還要SCI，還要IE，什麼都要做，結果呢？完全擠不上你們這邊隨便一匡，然後有這麼多有背景的，然後更有趣的是，這個給國立政大，我是政大畢業的，好，沒有問題。你給國立政治大學這四千八百多萬當中，又匡出一部分給大同大學，大同大學的主要負責人就是吳政忠前主委的學生，沒有問題，學業、能力都很好，沒有問題。但是匡出來的2,800萬當中，是要做什麼？要做一些相關的案件，卻又轉手給國研院的科政中心來處理，這是怎麼樣？你把這個四千八百多萬的計畫匡出兩千多萬給大同大學，大同大學再回一手，再把一些案件有關的徵件辦法跟徵案的活動辦法，又匡回給你們的科政中心，左手過來，右手轉出去，你難道都不知道國科會的計畫是這樣給的嗎？我代表所有年輕學子，他沾不上這些邊。剛剛林倩綺委員講到公私立補助不均衡，你們是這樣給錢的？你認為你對得起所有國內的年輕學子嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝柯委員，我會來仔細了解一下這個計畫。"],["柯委員志恩：光是這個部分就覺得非常荒謬了，好不好？匡出去又匡回來，你們是在做什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也不知道在做什麼。我會了解一下，謝謝委員，我一定會改善這個作法，以後不要再發生。"],["柯委員志恩：好。你如果不知道在做什麼，114年還要再繼續編4,800萬嗎？我再強調本席的原則，資助海外學子沒有問題，但是國科會已經有這麼多計畫給海外學子，你把它夾帶在這4,800萬當中，然後所做的每一件事情……我要的資料報告，都告訴我還在整理，所呈現出來就是我剛說的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我答應柯委員，這些不合理的事情，我一定要改善。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是要改善啊！否則我還是一句話，我相信這都不是在你任內發生的，但是我剛剛條列出來的，一定是非常多人看不下去了，當太多年輕學者汲汲研究都沾不上你們關愛眼神的時候，你們卻是大把大把的錢這樣做。這些人可以做這些事，但是你用那麼多都是有同樣背景的人，我覺得國科會經不起大家這樣子對你們的批判啦！主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝柯委員。"],["柯委員志恩：好，接下來我們來看一下，這個跟你有關，我剩下最後的時間。科技辦公室本來在行政院裡面，現在把它納入你這個部分，但是所謂的創新2.0，主委，你會不會覺得有點疊床架屋？你本身就已經是行政院科技方面一個非常大的幕僚，這邊又成立一個科技辦公室。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告柯委員，我已經把這個架構改掉了。"],["柯委員志恩：你把它改掉了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在符合行政院通過的組織法。"],["柯委員志恩：你就是不要疊床架屋，我相信你。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["柯委員志恩：問題是我還是要批判一下，現在雖然把它改掉了，但是這個AI行動2.0的預算執行度這樣看起來，不好意思！你們國科會實在是……你知道你們的執行進度只有27.73，跟其他部會比起來，真的還是落後的，主委，你要不要督促一下？不要告訴我這是第二期而已，你們會在最後年終的時候趕上！國科會應該帶頭做起，你們跟其他部會比起來，你們的27是最低的，這是你們的計畫，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們會改善。"],["柯委員志恩：你今天都告訴我你們會改善。針對我剛剛所講的，民脂民膏1年4,800多萬應該完全需要接受國會的監督。同樣的，非常多眉眉角角裡面，你們國科會已經有太多太多在做很多不同的補助，這個部分的每一個細節，為什麼會發生這樣的狀況？裡面的人事等等各方面，我都需要非常清楚的交代，如果沒有的話，114年你覺得還需要再編4,800萬嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我了解以後，我會改善，一定會向柯委員報告。"],["柯委員志恩：好，而且我還要特別講到推動計畫，我真的還不知道是主委說了算，你現在知道了喔？隨便大手一揮，你就可以匡住一個幾億的預算，你要給誰就給誰，你知道你有這個權力嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不會做這種事。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你知道主委可以有這種權力嗎？你現在才知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不應該！不應該這樣。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員。","主委，我想這個是很誇張的事情，而且我第一次聽到你這麼坦蕩蕩就回答「我也不知道」，但是我覺得這非常非常的誇張，希望會後特別針對剛才柯志恩委員所提的這個案子，你要儘速把報告提出來，讓委員會每一個委員都能夠知道。","接下來我們有請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:14:13","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:51:27+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155272","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","duration":853,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:37:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a7f15a518bd5a4f0b20a63eef073e7d61f248570de51b9a9304fec51324144de25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.312843750000001,"end":7.709093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.45159375,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.10534375,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.00346875,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.95909375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啊 部長 抱歉啦 你都 坐不 幾分鐘謝謝 部長 我是接著 對啦 我是接著陳委員繼續問因為今天要質詢您的議題真的很廣泛 今天我們超委給我們排的問題太多了其實你要我問人工生殖法少子化 我問三天三夜也可以 幫我來 您是專家"},{"start":29.804,"end":55.611,"text":"但是我覺得我最近真的很像執政黨的委員了因為我拼命在幫你們辯護也希望你們可以拿出勇敢的 guts 好嗎我現在覺得我比執政黨委員還像執政黨委員當然剛剛說我們已經蹉跎了30年但是我覺得有一個優點就是我們希望我們可以在這個任期啊做出一點推進因為人工生殖第一進步非常的多"},{"start":56.491,"end":81.487,"text":"第二其實經過30年的討論我看過國建署的版本我在這邊非常的讚許國建署因為他們把世界各國缺點都沒有都改過了他們發現有些衝比較快的國家的確有缺點改掉了現在我們是用最嚴謹的方法在制定我們的人工生殖法我們看過很多國家經歷的事我們也知道哪些事要避免所以我們往"},{"start":82.472,"end":99.625,"text":"英國美國加拿大澳洲這些法國化非常嚴格的國家在學習這點必須要肯定那我也看了過去20到30年在這個今天這個場域有發言過的委員關於人工生殖法的發言"},{"start":100.666,"end":115.897,"text":"許多呢我在這邊必須要說從醫學專業來看畢竟這邊我們有很多都是學科學學醫學的人女權還有社會議題跟醫學是沒有辦法相互解釋的剛剛陳昭之委員提到的這個女權前輩他在這個場域曾經說過我們醫學專家難以置信的話他在這邊有一天咆哮說憑什麼50歲的女人不能捐卵啊"},{"start":129.227,"end":148.456,"text":"他居然講出這句話欸你認同嗎而且他對於這個胚胎的植入可屬也有他自己很獨特的看法那我覺得部長我先預告啦您等一下接續今天還有30幾個委員要問您可能會遇到一些砲火但是我們必須要根據國際最新的醫療期刊"},{"start":150.298,"end":162.087,"text":"國際最新的數據還有人工生殖的科技是像火箭式每年在增長的我們要用最新的科學數據告訴大家為什麼這些人工生殖法的修正草案是這樣一筆一筆的定出來的好嗎"},{"start":166.039,"end":168.422,"text":"這是一個台灣目前普世價值的問題所以部長您一定要堅持住好嗎?"},{"start":186.261,"end":204.773,"text":"我已經堅持到民眾的最大的權益還有當然少數民眾的需求我們一定要重視然後在法規在倫理在社會的共識沒有你也要相信你的國建署你的國建署已經花了很多的心思在做這個修正草案了非常多"},{"start":206.328,"end":231.906,"text":"對,他們掌握得非常清楚部長,剛好國際組署長也在這邊我要關心一下腹癌的議題因為最近這幾週呢有一位我們議員的前輩許議員因為子宮內膜癌過世所以我認為啦在環境荷爾蒙不斷的上升還有我們的飲食改變高齡化、三高、糖尿病等等還有很多不孕症的疾病其實已經讓我們的腹癌分布有改變了"},{"start":232.526,"end":258.824,"text":"因此我們其實腹癌的篩檢需要做一些調整這個您是專家、家醫科醫師對不對所以之前其實您訂定的很好不管是抹片或是HPV的檢查或是HPV的疫苗你看關於子宮頸癌的死亡率跟發生率是大幅相較現在每年是1100個人好那為什麼呢我們子宮頸癌的這個申報成長率不會上升呢這個一定"},{"start":259.938,"end":260.118,"text":"好。好。"},{"start":282.375,"end":295.094,"text":"現在你發現其實你之前的政策不錯他不斷的在下降你的篩檢率也提高不了結果你又灌了新的預算金去篩檢那我們來關心一下議員得到的這個子宮內母愛下一張欸這不能work"},{"start":298.356,"end":318.393,"text":"他是從過去1995年至今是提升10倍之多啦其中的環節其中的原因我們這個大家都是專家都知道啦肥胖啊三高啊糖尿病啊等等的所以你們不會想要在其他兩個卵巢癌跟子宮內膜癌增加他的篩檢方式嗎這篩檢方式很簡單欸"},{"start":322.793,"end":340.013,"text":"我們一直在嚴厲相關的是不是有篩檢的工具那應該要有實證的醫學本席在這邊提一下子宮內膜癌它初期的症狀其實是不正常的出血但大部分的婦女並不會把它當一回事因為月經不正常是常常發生的嘛下一張"},{"start":341.479,"end":362.245,"text":"好我們來針對這些高風險的女性如果提供適當的篩檢其實很簡單就是一個陰道超音波就可以了陰道超音波大概只多花5到10分鐘他不僅是看子宮的構造連卵巢一起看所以你多一個篩檢你還可以預防兩個腹癌而且這些腹癌人數加起來是你的子宮頸來的4到5倍欸"},{"start":369.211,"end":383.927,"text":"好,我想感謝委員關心這個主題那的確我們的癌症會隨著環境的整個變遷會有不同的incidence的發生那我想我們要以日俱增來"},{"start":386.489,"end":404.704,"text":"對所有可能發生的癌症我們都能夠全面的來找到之後我再寫一個提案提供您一個很具體的做法這也是跟許多國衛院的專家、婦外的專家以及公衛的專家一起想出來的其實這個預算金額不會很高大概8到10億但是你針對全國50到75歲的女性大約快要430萬人這些人可以提供他們更多的保護好嗎"},{"start":414.417,"end":438.379,"text":"好再來因為剛剛有講到說女性有許多癌症不管是腹癌或是其他癌症都在不斷的上升所以其實我們對這些癌症病友也很關心他們希望未來成為媽媽的願望嘛但是呢現在各縣市很多地方也有提供動卵補助可是他動卵補助沒有比預期的申請率高大家知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":441.786,"end":469.334,"text":"沒關係部長我跟你講答案就是因為我們的人工生殖法還沒有修法也是其中的一個因素因為我們的女性有偶率已經來到10年來的新低這個署長一定知道48%的人是有偶的可是現在的人工生殖法如果你不去修正它的話它除非未來有找到對象不然它永遠沒有辦法使用自己的卵子OK嗎"},{"start":470.734,"end":470.874,"text":"好,下一張"},{"start":487.2,"end":514.093,"text":"這邊有講到說剛剛那位委員曾經也在這個場域啊講過說為什麼我們不植入5顆胚胎我在這邊也看到說國健署很細心在代孕的環節有規定代理孕母每一次只能植幾顆胚胎為限好這一點的話我希望當然大家很關心代理孕母也可以同樣把它援引到不管是同性伴侶或是單身女性這個部分"},{"start":514.833,"end":524.891,"text":"其實我們也可以根據現在人工生殖的技術發展還有懷孕的成功率我們逐項的訂定胚胎植入數的標準這一點可以做到嗎?"},{"start":527.644,"end":544.789,"text":"對,署長應該很了解因為署長自從推了試管嬰兒補助以後其實對我們國家的多胞胎率下降貢獻非常大對,但是現在只有零補助的人會被規定植入科宿沒有零補助的人他想植有的人想"},{"start":545.669,"end":546.65,"text":"不好意思主席,抱歉"},{"start":565.367,"end":588.686,"text":"再來也是這幾天大家很關心的部長您應該知道一一三年憲法判決第八號說如果這個精神科醫師在發現這個加害人有重大的精神心智缺陷不得執行死刑好我們看這個臉書他是一個火車刺警案的鑑定醫師他被大出征啊"},{"start":589.875,"end":608.164,"text":"他自從鑑定這個加害人有精神疾病以後他在網路上被出征他連基本的人身安全都沒有部長你也是醫生救人是醫生的天職你認為替死刑犯判定精神狀況是不是有違醫師的倫理"},{"start":611.693,"end":636.385,"text":"這可能針對整個社會的狀況以及現在醫學的發展那我想我們還是要請醫學會的專家我跟你說醫學會的專家世界精神醫學會在1996年馬德里宣言2023年日內瓦宣言都有講過說在任何情況下精神科醫師不應該執行死刑能力的鑑定第二"},{"start":637.445,"end":661.37,"text":"對於各種精神病患精神科醫師都應該積極協助法律上無法為自己有效防禦辯護不足足夠能力承擔法律責任的人好現在呢他好好的在醫學系想說要成為這個精神科醫師心理科醫師只為了幫助社會卻變成全民公審的對象或者是頭號罪人"},{"start":662.61,"end":683.258,"text":"這個判決下去以後精神科醫師如果他說他有問題有精神病不得執行死刑就變成頭號公題如果他說好他沒有精神病他沒問題就違反當初的醫師誓言嘛因為他就有可能會有執行死刑的問題這一點你怎麼看你是不是應該要出來為醫生講幾句話"},{"start":686.997,"end":704.91,"text":"我想我當醫學院的教授當了幾十年一定是堅守Hippocratic醫師誓言的那個教學但是醫師是不是對社會也有一定的責任對社會的公平正義"},{"start":705.942,"end":706.823,"text":"現在全國有151間的醫療單位可以做司法的精神鑑定"},{"start":721.053,"end":745.294,"text":"我們在這個審判中保護兩兆的基本人權是天經地義的嘛不管是加害人或是被害人可是誰來保護這些提供精神鑑定的醫療人員這邊提供一些國外的做法給部長參考一下比如說在國外不管是加害人或被害人或是檢方或是法官雙方各自聘請不同的專家"},{"start":746.255,"end":769.864,"text":"比如說曾經這個刺殺雷根總統的案子請了4個鑑定專家還有挪威的大屠殺兩邊各請了兩個專家所以他們在反覆的辯證中論述也會不同這樣可以分擔鑑定人員的心理壓力所以在這邊可以請部長具體的承諾您可以在一個月內給本席答覆可以跟司法司法體系來溝通嗎"},{"start":772.452,"end":783.709,"text":"好,我想這個都我們一直在溝通,一直在溝通,所以1個月會提進度報告。好,主席,最後一題,最後一題,你先坐啦,你先坐啦,最後一題啦。"},{"start":786.691,"end":812.882,"text":"好既然我們現在的量能不足既然我們現在的量能不足部長本來小英總統說呢要投入400億來完善司法精神醫療服務目標2025年要做到480床結果現在只有30床你的達成率是6%那未來呢我們只會需要更多這樣子的機構你知不知道這些有多高的比例是反社會人格"},{"start":815.393,"end":816.537,"text":"包圍我們到這個月底會開到102床會繼續努力"},{"start":821.072,"end":845.203,"text":"好你距離480床還是很遙遠這邊有一個報告是你們自己做的我也這邊具體建議部長可以讀一下你們很明確的在全民心理健康任性計畫裡面提到60%收治的精神病患中有反社會人格所以這些人如果沒有在完整的司法精神體系內他出來只會越來越嚴重"},{"start":846.476,"end":849.908,"text":"好嗎?好,這個本期會繼續追下去。謝謝主席,謝謝主席。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:37:14 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09:51:27","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155272","gazette":{"lineno":184,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時37分）部長，不好意思，你都坐不到1分鐘，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我是接著陳委員繼續問，因為今天要質詢您的議題真的很廣泛，今天召委給我們排的問題太多了，其實你要我問人工生殖法、少子化，我問三天三夜也可以。"],["邱部長泰源：委員，您是專家。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是我覺得我最近真的很像執政黨的委員了，因為我拼命在幫你們辯護，也希望你們可以勇敢的拿出guts好嗎？我現在覺得我比執政黨委員還像執政黨委員。當然剛剛說我們已經蹉跎了30年，但是我覺得有一個優點，就是我們希望可以在這個任期做出一點推進，因為人工生殖第一、進步非常的多；第二、其實經過30年的討論，我看過國健署的版本，我在這邊非常的讚許國健署，因為他們把世界各國缺點都改過了，他們發現有些衝比較快的國家的確有缺點，改掉了，現在是用最嚴謹的方法在制定人工生殖法，我們看過很多國家經歷的事，也知道哪些事要避免，所以往英國、美國、加拿大、澳洲，這些法規劃非常嚴格的國家在學習，這點必須要肯定。","我也看了過去20到30年，在今天這個場域有發言過的委員，他們關於人工生殖法的發言，我在這邊必須要說，從醫學專業來看，畢竟這邊我們有很多都是學科學、學醫學的人，女權還有社會議題跟醫學是沒有辦法相互解釋的。剛剛陳昭姿委員提到的女權前輩，他在這個場域曾經說過我們醫學專家難以置信的話，他有一天在這邊咆哮說：憑什麼50歲的女人不能捐卵？他居然講出這句話，你認同嗎？而且他對於胚胎植入的顆數也有他自己很獨特的看法。","部長，我先預告，今天好像有三十幾個委員要問，您等一下可能會遇到一些砲火，但是我們必須要根據國際最新的醫療期刊、國際最新的數據，還有人工生殖的科技是像火箭式每年在增長的，我們要用最新的科學數據告訴大家，為什麼這些人工生殖法的修正草案是這樣一筆一筆的訂出來的，好嗎？這是一個普世價值，其實不分黨派，很多委員都跟我諮詢過，不管是單身女性、男同志伴侶、女同志伴侶、子宮有問題的，不分黨派喔！都跟我諮詢過了，所以其實這是一個臺灣目前普世價值的問題，部長，你一定要堅持住，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我已經堅持到民眾最大的權益，還有當然少數民眾的需求，我們一定要重視，然後在倫理、在社會的……"],["陳委員菁徽：你也要相信你的國健署，你的國健署已經花了很多的心思在做這個修正草案了，非常多。"],["邱部長泰源：對，他們掌握得非常清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，剛好國健署署長也在這邊，我要關心一下婦癌的議題，因為最近這幾週有一位我們議員的前輩──許議員因為子宮內膜癌過世，所以我認為在環境荷爾蒙不斷地上升，還有我們的飲食改變，高齡化、三高、糖尿病等等，還有很多不孕症的疾病，其實已經讓我們的婦癌分布有所改變了，因此婦癌的篩檢其實需要做一些調整。您是家醫科醫師，這方面您是專家，對不對？之前其實您訂定得很好，不管是抹片、HPV的檢查或HPV的疫苗，你看，關於子宮頸癌的死亡率跟發生率是大幅下降的，現在每年是1,100個人。好，那為什麼子宮頸癌的參與率不會上升呢？這個署長一定已經很熟了，為什麼？為什麼？"],["吳署長昭軍：這是統計，假設是累計已經做過的，大概做過的數目就跟這個統計不一樣，這是每一年的量，對於這件事情，的確有一些年輕的人是比較缺乏這樣的健康意識。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，現在你發現其實之前的政策不錯，它不斷在下降，你的篩檢率也提高不了了，結果你又灌了新的預算進去篩檢。那我們來關心一下許議員得到的子宮內膜癌，它從過去1995年至今提升10倍之多，其中的原因大家都是專家，都知道是因為肥胖、三高、糖尿病等等的，所以你們不會想要在其他兩個──卵巢癌跟子宮內膜癌增加它的篩檢方式嗎？這個篩檢方式很簡單耶！"],["吳署長昭軍：我們一直在研議是不是有相關的篩檢工具，也應該要有……"],["陳委員菁徽：本席在這邊提一下，子宮內膜癌初期症狀其實是不正常的出血，但大部分的婦女並不會把它當一回事，因為月經不正常是常常發生的。如果要針對這些高風險的女性提供適當的篩檢，其實很簡單，就是一個陰道超音波就可以了。陰道超音波大概只多花5到10分鐘，它不僅是看子宮的構造，連卵巢一起看，所以多一個篩檢可以預防兩個婦癌，而且這些婦癌人數加起來是子宮頸癌的4到5倍耶！"],["邱部長泰源：好，感謝委員關心這個主題，的確，我們的癌症會隨著整個環境的變遷而有不同的instance發生……"],["陳委員菁徽：對。"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們要與日俱增，對所有可能發生的癌症都能夠全面地來……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，之後我再寫一個提案，提供你一個很具體的做法，這也是跟許多國衛院的專家、婦癌的專家以及公衛的專家一起想出來的，其實這個預算金額不會很高，大概8到10億，但是可以針對全國50歲到75歲的女性大約快要430萬人，為這些人提供更多的保護，好嗎？","再來，因為剛剛講到女性有許多癌症，不管是婦癌或其他癌症，都在不斷的上升，我們其實對這些癌症病友很關心，因為他們希望自己未來能成為媽媽，有這樣的願望，現在各縣市很多地方也有提供凍卵補助，可是凍卵補助並沒有比預期的申請率高，大家知道為什麼嗎？","沒關係，部長，我跟你講答案，我們的人工生殖法還沒有修法也是其中的一個因素，因為我們女性的有偶率已經達到10年來的新低，這個署長一定知道，48%的人是有偶的，可是現在的人工生殖法如果不去修正的話，除非未來有找到對象，不然他永遠沒有辦法使用自己的卵子，OK嗎？所以這件事情必須搭配人工生殖法的修正，才可以讓全國不管是醫療性凍卵的補助或是社會性凍卵的補助，可以更加落實，幫助我們解決少子化的困境。","賴惠員委員曾經也在這個場域講過，為什麼我們不植入5顆胚胎？我也看到國健署很細心，在代孕的環節中，有規定代理孕母每次植入只能以幾顆胚胎為限。大家當然很關心代理孕母，這一點我希望也可以同樣把它援引到不管是同性伴侶或是單身女性的部分，其實我們也可以根據現在人工生殖的技術發展還有懷孕的成功率，逐項訂定胚胎植入數的標準，這一點可以做到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們就是按照這樣的標準。"],["陳委員菁徽：署長應該很瞭解，因為署長自從推了試管嬰兒補助以後，其實對我們國家的多胞胎率下降貢獻非常大，但是現在只有領補助的人會被規定植入顆數，沒有領補助的，有人想植2顆、3顆，都還沒有詳細地訂定進去，所以也希望未來我們就拿到本委員會來一起討論、逐條討論好嗎？","接下來是這幾天大家很關心的，部長應該知道，113年憲法判決第8號：如果精神科醫師發現加害人有重大的精神、心智缺陷，不得執行死刑。根據本席現在出示的臉書，一個火車刺警的鑑定醫師被大出征，他說自從鑑定加害人有精神疾病以後，就在網路上被出征，連基本的人身安全都沒有。部長，你也是醫生，救人是醫生的天職，你認為替死刑犯判定精神狀況是不是有違醫師倫理？"],["邱部長泰源：這可能要針對整個社會的狀況以及醫學的發展，我想我們還是要請醫學會的專家來好好討論一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，醫學會的專家。我跟你說，世界精神醫學會在1996年馬德里宣言、2023年日內瓦宣言都有講過，在任何情況下，精神科醫師不應該執行死刑能力的鑑定；第二，對於各種精神病患，精神科醫師都應該積極協助法律上無法為自己有效防禦、辯護，沒有足夠能力承擔法律責任的人。好，現在他好好地在醫學系講說要成為精神科醫師、心理科醫師，只為了幫助社會，卻變成全民公審的對象或者是頭號罪人。這個判決下去以後，精神科醫師如果說他有問題、有精神病，不得執行死刑，就變成頭號公敵；如果他說好，他沒有精神病、他沒問題，就違反當初的醫師誓言嘛！因為他就有可能會有執行死刑的問題。這一點你怎麼看？你是不是應該出來為醫生講幾句話？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我當醫學院的教授當了幾十年，一定是堅守Hippocratic Oath（醫師誓言）的教學，但是醫師是不是對社會也有一定的責任、對社會的公平正義是不是能夠協助，這個部分我覺得醫界可以再坐下來談一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我提供您一個具體的做法，現在全國有151間醫療單位可以做司法的精神鑑定，我們在審判中保護兩造的基本人權是天經地義的，不管是加害人或是被害人，可是誰來保護這些提供精神鑑定的醫療人員？這邊提供一些國外的做法給部長參考一下：在國外，不管是加害人、被害人或是檢方、法官，雙方各自聘請不同的專家，比如說刺殺雷根總統的案子曾經請了4個鑑定專家，還有挪威的大屠殺，兩邊各請了兩個專家，他們在反覆的辯證中，論述也會不同，這樣可以分擔鑑定人員的心理壓力。所以在這邊請部長具體承諾，您可以在一個月內給本席答復，可以跟司法體系來溝通嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想這個部分我們一直在溝通，所以一個月內可以提進度報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，最後一題。既然我們現在量能不足，部長，本來小英總統說要投入400億來完善司法精神醫療服務，目標是2025年要做到480床，結果現在只有30床，達成率是6%，未來我們只會需要更多這樣子的機構，你知不知道這些有多高的比例是反社會人格？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們到這個月底會開到102床，會繼續努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你距離480床還是很遙遠。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊有一個報告是你們自己做的，我也具體建議部長可以讀一下，你們很明確的在全民心理健康韌性計畫裡面提到，60%收治的精神病患中有反社會人格，所以這些人如果沒有在完整的司法精神體系內，他出來只會越來越嚴重，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個本席會繼續追下去，謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。我想請衛福部這邊就人工生殖法稍微催一下，我想在這個會期能逐條討論，送出委員會。","接續我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:09:41","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:49:10+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155271","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","duration":581,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:39:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a4b94ebcb737c207eb46d19fd1690e0d4f248570de51b9a931b9ac0c7026c83ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.400343750000001,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.11284375,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.609718750000003,"end":23.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.72784375,"end":35.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.27846875,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.88971875,"end":40.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.087843750000005,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.34909375,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.70721875,"end":49.727843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.672843750000006,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.86534375,"end":61.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.28721875,"end":61.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":75.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.56346875,"end":79.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.52909375,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.14471875000001,"end":111.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.58534375,"end":97.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.85534375,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.76596875000001,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.94596875,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.39721875000001,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.01284375,"end":116.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.32909375000001,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.07534375,"end":128.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.80471875,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.68596875,"end":131.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.98096875000002,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.19596875000002,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.96784375000001,"end":141.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.42221875,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.56909375,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.67346875,"end":162.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.30096875,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.73096875000002,"end":164.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.84909375,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.10096875000002,"end":173.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.96534375000002,"end":181.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.23034375,"end":184.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.28471875000002,"end":188.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.72721875000002,"end":192.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":193.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.51971875,"end":194.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.03846875000002,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.70784375000002,"end":211.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.60971875,"end":234.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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沒有日本的網站環境省他有告訴你遇到熊你應該怎麼處理遇到蛇要怎麼處理 農業部的醫報有幾個圖卡但是林業署的防蛇手冊要在很裡面的歷史訊息裡頭才找得到遇到虎頭蜂要怎麼處理"},{"start":543.656,"end":571.401,"text":"台灣跟日本的處理方式是完全不一樣喔日本是教大家隨身帶小瓶的殺蟲劑可是台灣說不行用殺蟲劑喔所以部長我現在跟你講就是說遇到在野外遇到這一種動物的攻擊野生動物的攻擊的時候應該怎麼求生是不是能夠請林業署趕快去研擬至少在我們的網站裡頭圖卡影音等等都應該讓民眾有一個非常正確的教育知識好不好"},{"start":571.941,"end":577.684,"text":"我們會馬上做 把這整個做一個宣導 變成一個集中式的放在一個專區讓大家來看"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:39:29 - 09:49:10","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155271","gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時39分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下陳部長？"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，這一次山陀兒颱風對高雄造成很大的影響，經濟委員會很多委員都來自高雄。部長，再讓您看一下，這個是這一次風災所造成的溫網室的損害，現在大概我們的棗子、木瓜都是在溫網室裡頭種植，那這一次棗子的受災是很嚴重的。部長，我要請您回答一下，原來我們在凱米颱風時有一個溫網室的設備補助，它的申請日期是到9月30號，結果不到兩個月的時間，又來了一個山陀兒，這次的風又更大，高達17級，所以這次很多的溫網室又被吹走了，能不能把原來9月30號的申請截止日期往後再延，把山陀兒颱風所造成的損害納進去，有沒有可能在這部分對農民有一些幫助？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員對溫網室受害補助申請期限是否延長的關心，我們內部當時在勘災的時候就有討論到這個問題，因為凱米颱風跟山陀兒颱風侵襲時間相距非常近，山陀兒颱風特別是風的部分，它的受損更嚴重……"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["陳部長駿季：所以原則上，我們會把兩個時序這麼近的颱風的災害補助申請期限同步延長到年底。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以換句話說，我們是不是會再趕快發一個公文，原來是到9月30號，所以你現在會把整個申請的期限延長到年底？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是凱米颱風的部分本來到9月30號，我們會延到12月31號，然後這次山陀兒颱風的部分，也是同步到12月底。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，所以這個公文是今天可以……"],["陳部長駿季：我想今天應該就可以把它發出去。"],["邱委員議瑩：今天可以發送嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，這個要再讓您看一下，當然我們剛剛講到了山陀兒的農損，這個是我去看整個蜜棗開花的情形，它的花已經「袂牢花」，我們台語說「袂牢花」。昨天農糧署的副署長也親自到我們的田區去看了，我想這部分你們的專家會議應該也不太需要開，應該很清楚都知道，這個颱風對於蜜棗、芭樂所造成的影響。","這是芭樂樹，你有沒有看過這樣倒一整排的芭樂樹，還有斷成三節的，我們去現場看到的芭樂樹就長這樣。這個是大寮，這次受風很嚴重的是在大寮、林園地區，大寮的香蕉全部倒一片。我右手邊這一張圖是香瓜，在阿蓮種植的香瓜全部泡水，全部爛掉。這個是林園的養殖業者，因為停電造成他們養殖的石斑魚等等，各式的養殖魚類全部死亡的狀況。","所以，部長，我們大家要跟您爭取的就是，剛剛一直在講所謂的「全品項、免勘災」這件事情。當然你們要經過專家會議，但是我覺得這個專家會議其實可以根據很多的氣象參數，跟你們現在在各地區所得到的資訊，我想應該是可以很迅速、很正確的來做出「全品項、免勘災」這樣的一個政治決定嘛。您同意我的看法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。非常謝謝委員的提示，其實「全品項」跟「免現勘」在開的時候，我們現在最簡化的過程就是，因為免現勘要縣市政府提報，所以在第一時間縣市政府在勘災的時候，其實已經跟我們的試驗改良場所一起在看了。"],["邱委員議瑩：是，陳其邁市長已經去看過三次。"],["陳部長駿季：對，看完以後，當他們提報之後，我們的專家會議不只是處理一個區域而已，我們的專家會議會處理全省的部分，所以一提報上來我們就會儘速召開專家會議，會議本身基本上是會去確認一些數據，確認完以後就會公告，所以，我剛才說的就是……"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我覺得如果是這樣，就是說我們都已經去看過這麼多次了……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：「全品項、免勘災」這件事情應該大家是可以達成共識的嘛，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在看起來我想「全品項」是沒問題，那「免現勘」的部分是會有一些品項，而不是所有全品項又全部免現勘。品項部分可能包括蓮霧、棗子、香蕉……"],["邱委員議瑩：那你們現在知道受災比較嚴重的，其實就不用現勘了嘛，是不是可以這樣做？"],["陳部長駿季：對，比如說像蓮霧、棗子、香蕉、木瓜……"],["邱委員議瑩：芭樂、木瓜這一些。"],["陳部長駿季：芭樂之類的品項，它受損的部分是比較普遍性、嚴重性的，這個部分可能可以達到免現勘的程度，那其他小量的部分就另外……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，部長，如果是這樣的話，我覺得也要趕快通令各縣市政府各區公所的農業課，因為農民現在已經急著在整理田地，所以他有可能已經開始在清除一些枯枝什麼的，不要屆時農業課的人去看又說，你這個田很乾淨，不像有受損的樣子，其實人家都已經整理完了，反而他的勘災是不核准的，我覺得這個東西可能要先講，要先提醒各縣市政府農政單位，這個可能我也會去幫忙說。不過我們剛剛一直在講，不管是全品項，不管是不是免現勘，不管是怎麼樣的災損補助，都需要錢嘛，現在農委會你還有今年的錢，對不對？現在還有一點錢，明年的錢在哪裡？你的公務預算，明年農委會的公務預算有1,692億……"],["陳部長駿季：1,693億。"],["邱委員議瑩：基金有747億，前瞻有42億。我剛剛稍微整理了一下，我們比較關心的大型計畫包括農田水利永續發展計畫50.24億；治災防洪45億；防範非洲豬瘟計畫5.59億；撥補農發基金的29.56億；農業用電的差價補貼24.26億，這些全部都沒有欸，總預算現在都沒有欸！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：那我們現在在討論的，您剛剛在報告這一本業務概況，我覺得很用心，所有農業部要做的事情都在這裡……"],["陳部長駿季：很多，對。"],["邱委員議瑩：可是這些都要錢欸，你每一項計畫都要錢欸，沒有半毛錢怎麼辦？我現在在跟你講全品項、免勘災，什麼設備要補助，要怎麼樣照顧農民，這每一樣、每一句話都要錢欸，部長。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們也盤點過了，如果總預算沒有辦法如期順利通過的時候，新興的、新增的計畫總共有414億，其中非常重要的是農水路的部分、冷鏈的部分，還有更重要的就是我們對農漁民的用電補貼的部分，這個部分是完全沒辦法發放的。"],["邱委員議瑩：對，是，那完全不做了？那就不能做了？"],["陳部長駿季：完全沒有辦法發放。所以我們還是期待也呼籲整個總預算能夠儘速的付委協商。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以，平常口口聲聲說要照顧農民的這些藍白委員們，你剛剛講的這些東西，應該要讓他們很清楚的知道，尤其來自農業縣市的委員們，如果這些總預算不能過的話，嘴巴一直講愛農民，要照顧農民，都是假的啦！這部分我還是期待，我們剛剛講這麼多的補助，沒有錢什麼事情都做不了。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，其他各位請回。部長，我現在來跟您談一個比較軟性的議題，但是這個也跟人身安全相關。疫後我們森林遊樂區的旅客數其實逐年在回升，那我們面對到野生動物的時候，這個應該就歸農業部管了吧？應該歸農業部林業跟自然保育署管了嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：要怎麼教導民眾，我們發現在林保署的網站……欸，時間到了，再給我1分鐘，好不好？我很快講完。"],["主席：30秒。"],["邱委員議瑩：在林保署的網站上完全沒有教導，比如說，遇到熊應該怎麼處理？沒有。日本環境省的網站有告訴你，遇到熊你應該怎麼處理。遇到蛇要怎麼處理？農業部的農業E報有幾個圖卡，但是林業署的防蛇手冊要在很裡面的歷史訊息裡頭才找得到。遇到虎頭蜂要怎麼處理？臺灣跟日本的處理方式完全不一樣，日本是教大家隨身帶小瓶的殺蟲劑，可是臺灣是說不行用殺蟲劑。所以部長，我現在要跟您講就是說，在野外遇到這一種野生動物攻擊的時候，應該怎麼求生，是不是能夠請林業署趕快去研擬，至少在我們的網站裡，包括圖卡、影音等等，都應該讓民眾有一個非常正確的教育知識，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會馬上做，把這整個宣導內容做成一個集中式的放在一個專區，讓大家來看。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員，部長請回座。","下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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主委好 主委今年5月的時候國科會跟環境部有辦國家氣候變遷科學報告2024現象衝擊跟調適的公開說明會本席非常重視因為這個是之前我們所謂任性台灣的其中一環也是我們國科會下面的重要計畫那其中就有提到是說未來全球暖化"},{"start":31.488,"end":54.268,"text":"台灣的夏天恐怕會高達7個月而且會有兩極化什麼意思呢就像是我們上個禮拜遇到的颱風一樣就是說強台的頻率這是你們的結論強台的頻率會變高淹水的事件會增加尤其過去50年來才發生的極端降雨事件未來可能每10年就會發生一次是不是"},{"start":55.109,"end":70.408,"text":"是,如果我們不努力去減碳的話是,你已經看到而且你講到減碳嘛我先強調這個重點這跟本席的北海岸這兩天我們看到明明颱風已經過去了北海岸強降雨那反而里長"},{"start":71.429,"end":93.551,"text":"當地的齊老里長他說住在那邊有人講說40年來沒有看過這樣的一個強降雨有人講說50年60年沒看過那得到的結論就是確實這一次的強降雨是非常極端的一個氣候那也跟你的一個結論不謀而合而且你結論裡面甚至講到是說未來如果暖化的話海平面上升造成海岸的"},{"start":94.372,"end":118.379,"text":"一煙面積增加雲林台南基隆新北會是最嚴重的幾個縣市好我們已經知道這個結論了但是我們要怎麼樣的預防我想這才是重點嘛對不對我們要瞭解這個狀況我們要怎麼樣去預防那其中有人就講是說在這一次的一個氣象署的一個氣象報告裡面其實給我們北海岸地區是沒有很精準的"},{"start":118.899,"end":119.319,"text":"主委,我想請教"},{"start":141.55,"end":168.813,"text":"面對這樣的一個狀況我們能夠怎麼樣來去做更好的因應或說更準確的告訴我們鄉親告訴我們台灣的民眾有可能有這樣的降雨要及早撤離要撤離及早因應要因應主委謝謝洪委員中央氣象署的這個預報跟我們現在災防中心的這個研究的投入其實也有相關那也包含我們太空中心在現在氣象衛星開始投入因應後甚至我們講說AI"},{"start":169.974,"end":170.995,"text":"我們昨天會有計算出來但沒有告訴我們新北鄉親"},{"start":202.7,"end":217.188,"text":"我請我們災防中心主任來回答一下我想中央應變中心開設的時候在前一天也就是10月3日大致上中央應變中心有發布所有的預警資料"},{"start":218.349,"end":237.388,"text":"在第13報及第14報所有的報告都有送到各個一級開設的地方政府當然也包括新北市當初10月3日早上9點半及10月3日下午3點所提出來的淹水都已經涵蓋了這些區域"},{"start":237.868,"end":257.927,"text":"但我現在講的是10月4日的強降雨啊是啊 所以說10月3日是預報預警第二天10月4日的事情啊來 主委 主委 很明顯的 氣象署也好或說災害面中心有講但是你沒有講到那麼精確就是說它的強降雨的狀況"},{"start":259.008,"end":285.565,"text":"他是一整個幾個小時內把一整天你們講的這個降雨量給降下來所以他會發聲說造成是十一十二點以前他還是風平浪靜尤其那一天是大家看縣市長也覺得是說那一天已經過了颱風過了大家也都覺得颱風消失了所以說並沒有停班停課但突然間下午時間短時間降下一整天的雨量而造成衝擊性的災情"},{"start":285.865,"end":302.835,"text":"報告委員其實災害應變中心在當天並沒有撤除還是延續所以我們災防中心的那個計算一直都在進行當中是我現在講的是說你的計算持續進行但是就是沒有那麼精確以及沒有強降雨的部分告知"},{"start":303.675,"end":326.427,"text":"主委 我認為說 有告知啦 但大家可能會比較忽視掉主委 我說實在話 我覺得是說這邊兩個部分啦 一個是你告知的狀況不夠精準或說沒有辦法那麼準確的告知到是說到底是什麼時間點有那麼大的一個降雨 我們大家共同的面臨 第二個部分是對於我們的這個"},{"start":328.028,"end":348.31,"text":"計算的一個狀況能夠怎麼樣能夠更精確的去掌握好謝謝委員因為在你剛剛的一個簡報裡面本席特別聽了11分鐘裡面你講了18次的AI啊代表是說AI大家都很重視我們也很關心啊但重點是說AI怎麼樣實際的運用在我們每一個人的生活裡面並且真的看到問題解決問題"},{"start":349.531,"end":372.612,"text":"非常同意我們會加強在AI的投入希望把未來這個預測預測的解析度把它提升主委在這個部分裡面氣象署這邊是不是能夠再做一個更緊密的一個會議討論來了解說未來可以怎麼樣協助到地方政府讓地方政府能夠有更充裕的時間或說民眾有更充裕的時間來去了解相關的資訊是謝謝委員建議我們會朝這個方向進行"},{"start":376.193,"end":394.597,"text":"對,那另外本席再請教您也是總統府國家氣候變遷對應委員會的其中委員議員嘛對不對那最近環境部也好或是說在這個聚焦的會議裡面有已經聚焦到說2032年台灣減碳的新目標要提升到40%這個您知道"},{"start":400.509,"end":425.849,"text":"知道 知道嘛 對啊上一次我們在一樣在這個委員會我請教你說2028年的時候台灣有多少的發電是用火力發電你笑笑不敢沒有不願意正面回應啦八成發電嘛八成發電量都是火力發電嘛但現在我們喊出一個新目標叫做2032年要減碳40%我可以先請教您知不知道之前國發會有訂出台灣的目標2025年減碳要減到多少"},{"start":430.302,"end":439.184,"text":"2025年要減碳10%那您知道之前的目標2030年要減碳百分之多少嗎?也不清楚那您剛還講說我開宗明義先請教您說氣候變遷科技現象你講到最重點是減碳"},{"start":453.359,"end":465.364,"text":"你講到最重點是減碳嘛你說這個極端氣候的成因或背後的原因是因為碳排高嘛那減碳的部分那我們台灣現在2025年減碳10%環境部長已經公開承認了明年絕對達不到10%會跳票那2030年說要減碳25%正負1你覺得有可能達到嗎"},{"start":478.533,"end":504.28,"text":"我只能說我們要努力做啦那如果沒有達到勒我當然相信大家都很努力做啊你今年光說要跨部會淨零科技多少預算今年有一百將近一百二十億啦一百二十億一百三十億嘛對啊你每年跨部會預算一百二三十億的預算那你跟我們講是說定一個目標2025年已經跳票了2030年還有五年的時間25%"},{"start":507.079,"end":518.667,"text":"不知道答不答得到現在我要再畫一個新願景叫2032年百分之40我都不禁懷疑啊2032為什麼突然202520305年每5年檢討一次我覺得很合理啊突然講一個2032是怎麼樣總統大選幫下一任的就是幫2028年要選連任的時候再鋪牌那2032年百分之40答得到嗎"},{"start":534.898,"end":539.72,"text":"如果現在2025年10%達不到2030年25%不知道那2032年的40%我們這不是菜市場喊價買菜在那邊喊你加一點我減一點而是實際的作為啊那2028年火力發電佔8成以上我們就講啊跟國際趨勢背道而馳"},{"start":556.26,"end":578.812,"text":"那你認為火力發電都全開了我們沒有減少能源政策不改變的情況下我們還有什麼樣的錦囊妙計可以把現在生活不變的情況錦囊妙計我們又持續增加又有AI高科技半導體持續增加有發電量持續的上升我們有什麼錦囊妙計可以達到你所謂的25%或40%"},{"start":581.974,"end":607.567,"text":"國會這邊我們投入這個近年節能的這個技術的研發我們會持續也會協助政府來推動這個智慧電網讓這個能源的使用更有效率所以主委你沒有辦法回答說到底有什麼錦囊妙計因為你講這些都是現在進行是正在做但還是一樣我們看到碳排越來越高錦囊妙計在那我現在在想是說我都不知道說10月底有第二次的委員會"},{"start":609.167,"end":636.236,"text":"主委你也算是個科學人嘛所以我從科學角度好你從科學角度那你敢不敢講真話在第二次10月底賴清德總統要開的所謂的總統府國家氣候變稱對策委員會發言一下跟總統講說如果你現在能源政策不改變如果你現在跟國際趨勢背道而馳如果說我們還是一樣照現在的方式的話抱歉25%40%都是假的答不到"},{"start":638.373,"end":660.525,"text":"我們會承諾投入各種可能的綠能的技術的研發。看來您還是不敢面對呢。這不是我。好了,來,早位已經站起來了。最後30秒了。主委,總統也有講到一個新北123。賴金德總統之前說要推動淡海科學城本系列選區。"},{"start":662.318,"end":683.274,"text":"卓榮泰院長在6月29日來到淡水視察淡江大橋工程的時候也提到說要有淡海科學城並且國土署講說現在要把科學園區跟科技園區共同放在淡海新市鎮二期一區的開發還講說已經找了經濟部跟國科會邀地方共同規劃有沒有這件事"},{"start":684.344,"end":707.489,"text":"我們科學園區的規劃的部分的確有參與先期的參與經濟部跟國科會有沒有邀地方共同討論有沒有在著手進行有沒有想要達成賴清德總統跟卓派院長的政見主政是內政部主政內政部因為國土署開發嘛但是現在主要沒有錯內政部邀你們嘛但是你們是一個很大的推力嘛"},{"start":710.378,"end":731.676,"text":"我們在那邊還沒有推理因為那個地方如果說那個地方是傳統產業為主好 可以那個地方不是傳統產業為主我必須要糾正您這句話因為賴金德總統和卓榮泰院長宣示的都是說淡海科學層並且希望能夠引進相關來講半導體或是比較高科技的部隊總統指示的我們一定會照辦"},{"start":732.196,"end":759.489,"text":"是,所以請會後給本席相關資料因為你今天的業務報告裡面花了很多篇幅在寫但是沒有提到任何賴清的總統和卓榮泰院長的一個證件要落實吧我們請會後吳主委再把相關的報告給我們的洪孟楷委員我會持續追因為這不僅是總統的承諾也是我們地方鄉親的期盼更是我之前2020年就提出來的證件所以也請我們國科會一定要重視謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:31:11 - 09:43:56","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155270","gazette":{"lineno":119,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時31分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，今年5月的時候，國科會跟環境部有辦「國家氣候變遷科學報告2024：現象、衝擊與調適」公開說明會，本席非常重視，因為這個是之前所謂韌性臺灣的其中一環，也是國科會下面的重要計畫，其中就有提到未來隨著全球暖化，臺灣的夏天恐怕會高達7個月，而且會有兩極化，什麼意思呢？就像是我們上個禮拜遇到的颱風一樣。你們的結論是，強颱的頻率會變高，淹水的事件會增加，尤其過去50年來才發生的極端降雨事件，未來可能每10年就會發生一次，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，如果我們不努力去減碳的話。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，你已經看到，而且你講到減碳。我先強調這個重點，本席的選區北海岸這兩天我們看到明明颱風已經過去了，北海岸卻出現強降雨，反而當地的耆老、里長有人說住在那邊40年來沒有看過這樣的強降雨，有人說50年、60年沒看過，得到的結論就是確實這一次的強降雨是非常極端的氣候，也跟你們的結論不謀而合。而且你們的結論裡面甚至講到未來如果暖化的話，海平面上升造成海岸的易淹面積增加，雲林、臺南、基隆、新北會是最嚴重的幾個縣市。","我們已經知道這個結論了，但是我們要怎麼樣預防，我想這才是重點，對不對？我們要了解這個狀況、我們要怎麼樣去預防。其中有人就說，在這一次氣象署的氣象報告裡面，其實給我們北海岸地區是沒有很精準的，尤其是上個禮拜五，明明到上午以前都沒有說有那麼大的降雨量，但突然12點一過，我們看之後後續的報告，降雨量的數字突然在12點的時候暴升、整個拉高，然後就沒有停了，一直連下四、五個小時的降雨。主委，我想請教，面對這樣的狀況，我們能夠怎麼樣去做更好的因應？或是更準確地告訴我們鄉親、告訴臺灣的民眾有可能有這樣的降雨，讓需要及早撤離的要撤離、及早因應的要因應？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝洪委員。中央氣象署的預報跟現在災防中心研究的投入其實也有相關，也包含太空中心在現在氣象衛星開始投入營運以後……"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至我們說AI、超級電腦怎麼樣協助我們的算力，更準確地推估降雨量、鋒面、颱風的路徑等等，是吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們正在積極做這件事情。這一次新北在東北角強降雨的狀況，其實我們那個時候有計算出來，雖然還是有一點點誤差，但是那個強降雨因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：有計算出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有計算出來……"],["洪委員孟楷：國科會有計算出來，但沒有告訴我們新北鄉親？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請災防中心主任來回答一下。"],["陳主任宏宇：洪委員好。我想中央應變中心開設的時候，在前一天，也就是10月3日，大致上中央應變中心有發布所有的預警資料，第13報跟第14報所有的報告都有送到送到各個一級開設的地方政府，當然也包括了新北市。當初10月3日早上9點半跟10月3日下午3點所提出來的淹水，都已經涵蓋了這些區域。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我現在講的是10月4日的強降雨。"],["陳主任宏宇：是，所以10月3日是預報預警第二天10月4號的事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，很明顯地，氣象署也好或災害應變中心有講，但是沒有講到那麼精確，就是強降雨的狀況，它是幾個小時內把一整天你們講的降雨量給降下來，所以會發生11、12點以前還是風平浪靜，尤其那一天縣市長覺得那天颱風已經過了，大家也都覺得颱風消失了，所以並沒有停班停課，但突然間下午短時間降下一整天的雨量，而造成衝擊性的災情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，其實災害應變中心在當天並沒有撤除，還是延續，所以災防中心的計算一直都在進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我現在講的是你們的計算持續進行，但就是沒有那麼精確，以及強降雨的部分沒有告知。主委，我認為說……"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實有告知，但是大家可能會比較忽視掉，因為那是很特殊的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，說實在話，我覺得這變成兩個部分，一個是你們告知的狀況不夠精準，或是沒有辦法那麼準確地告知到底是什麼時間點有那麼大的降雨，大家共同面臨這個狀況。第二個部分是對於我們計算的狀況，能夠怎麼樣更精確地去掌握……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛的簡報本席特別聽了，11分鐘裡面，你講了18次的AI，代表AI大家都很重視，我們也很關心，但重點是AI怎麼樣實際地運用在我們每一個人的生活裡面，並且真的看到問題、解決問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：非常同意，我們會加強在AI的投入，希望把未來預測的解析度提升。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，在這個部分裡面，氣象署是不是能夠再做更緊密的會議討論，來了解未來可以怎麼樣協助到地方政府，讓地方政府能夠有更充裕的時間，或是讓民眾有更充裕的時間去了解相關的資訊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員建議，我們會朝這個方向進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，另外，本席再請教，您也是總統府國家氣候變遷對應委員會委員的其中一員，對不對？最近環境部也好，或是在這個聚焦的會議裡面，已經聚焦到2032年臺灣減碳的新目標要提升到40%，這個您知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：知道嘛。上一次我們一樣在這個委員會，我請教你2028年臺灣有多少的發電是用火力發電，你笑笑，不願意正面回應，其實八成的發電量都是火力發電，但現在我們喊出一個新目標，叫做2032年要減碳40%。我先請教您知不知道之前國發會有訂出臺灣的目標，2025年減碳要減到多少？您清楚嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：2025年要減碳10%。那您知道之前的目標，2030年要減碳百分之多少嗎？也不清楚？剛才我開宗明義先請教您氣候變遷科技現象，你講到最重點是減碳，你說極端氣候的成因或背後的原因是因為碳排高……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但這是全球……"],["洪委員孟楷：減碳的部分，臺灣現在2025年減碳10%，環境部長已經公開承認了明年絕對達不到10%，會跳票，那2030年說要減碳25%正負1，你覺得有可能達到嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我只能說我們要努力做……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果沒有達到呢？我當然相信大家都很努力做，你今年光說要跨部會淨零科技多少預算？"],["吳主任委員誠文：今年有將近120億。"],["洪委員孟楷：120億、130億。對啊！你每年跨部會預算一百二、三十億的預算，你跟我們講訂一個目標2025年已經跳票了，距離2030年還有5年的時間，25%不知道達不達得到，現在又要再畫一個新願景，叫2032年40%。我都不禁懷疑，為什麼會突然講2032？以前的目標是2025、2030，每5年檢討一次，我覺得很合理，突然講一個2032，是怎麼樣？為了總統大選？就是幫2028年要選連任在鋪排？那2032年達得到40%嗎？如果現在2025年的10%達不到，2030年的25%也不知道，那2032年的40%？這不是在菜市場喊價買菜，在那邊喊你加一點、我減一點，而是實際的作為。那2028年火力發電占八成以上，這個跟國際趨勢背道而馳，那你認為火力發電都全開了，在能源政策不改變的情況下，我們還有什麼樣可以把現在生活不變情況下的錦囊妙計？而我們又持續增加，又有AI、高科技、半導體持續增加，發電量需要持續的上升，我們有什麼錦囊妙計可以達到你所謂的25%或40%？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會會持續投入淨零節能技術的研發，也會協助政府來推動智慧電網，讓能源的使用更有效率。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以主委沒有辦法回答說到底有什麼錦囊妙計，因為你講的這些都是現在進行式、正在做，但還是一樣，我們看到碳排越來越高……"],["吳主任委員誠文：錦囊妙計在……"],["洪委員孟楷：我都不知道10月底有第2次的委員會，主委，你也算是個科學人嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我從科學的角度。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，你從科學的角度，那你敢不敢講真話？在第2次、10月底，賴清德總統要開所謂的總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會，你發言一下，跟總統說，如果現在能源政策不改變，如果現在跟國際趨勢背道而馳，如果我們還是一樣照現在的方式的話，抱歉，25%、40%都是假的，達不到！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會承諾投入各種可能的綠能技術研發。"],["洪委員孟楷：看來您還是不敢面對呢！"],["吳主任委員誠文：這不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦，召委已經站起來了，最後30秒。主委，總統有講到「新北一二三」，賴清德總統之前說要推動淡海科學城，在本席的選區。卓榮泰院長在6月29號來到淡水視察淡江大橋工程的時候，也提到要有淡海科學城，並且國土署說現在要把科學園區跟科技園區共同放在淡海新市鎮二期一區的開發，還說已經找了經濟部跟國科會邀地方共同規劃，有沒有這件事？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科學園區的規劃我們的確有先期的參與。"],["洪委員孟楷：經濟部跟國科會有沒有邀地方共同討論？有沒有在著手進行？有沒有想要達成賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長的政見？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個主政是內政部。"],["洪委員孟楷：主政是內政部，因為國土署開發。"],["吳主任委員誠文：內政部邀我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在主要……沒有錯，內政部邀你們嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但你們是一個很大的推力，是不是？本席想講的是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在那邊還沒有推力，因為那個地方……"],["主席：洪孟楷委員，是不是請主委於會後回復，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：好，可以。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個地方是傳統產業為主。"],["洪委員孟楷：那個地方不是傳統產業為主，我必須要糾正您這句話，因為賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長宣示的都是淡海科學城，並且希望能夠引進相關半導體或是比較高科技的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：總統指示的我們一定會照辦。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以……"],["主席：我想是不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：請會後給本席相關資料。"],["主席：對，主委會後再提供給洪孟楷委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你今天的業務報告裡面花了很多篇幅在寫，但是沒有提到任何賴清德總統、卓榮泰院長的政見，要落實吧！"],["主席：謝謝，會後請吳主委再把相關的報告給洪孟楷委員。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我會持續追，因為這不僅是總統的承諾，也是我們地方鄉親的期盼，更是我之前2020年就提出來的政見，所以也請國科會一定要重視，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","我們有請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},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整合啊"},{"start":143.098,"end":143.579,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":163.678,"end":173.344,"text":"一流需求的前提下我們也可以篩選民間優質的醫療機構與軍方的醫院共同合作一方面是舒緩醫療間我們候診看診的時間"},{"start":178.635,"end":204.082,"text":"正確、善用的綠色通道的規則確保醫療流程的效率與服務品質減輕病患等待期間焦慮的心情與病痛我們在民間常常講一些意外狀況如果有三長兩短那是一個民間的講法但是我們現在反映到什麼呢就是掛號排隊的時間長"},{"start":206.463,"end":234.971,"text":"等候看病的時間長領藥檢查的時間長可是真正因為受選於原力之源醫療體系醫師所以看病問診的時間短解釋病情的時間短我們有些老農民實際上以我們專業醫生論述的講法他的專業背景聽不懂這種疫情的狀況症候的狀況所以我們慢慢來調整了變成了三短兩長"},{"start":236.271,"end":236.371,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":266.791,"end":267.372,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":295.925,"end":314.342,"text":"支持國軍站立維持照顧榮民、榮家以及廣闊到民間的共同的照育扮演了一個很重要的角色那麼我們也相信榮民的需要退府會完全了解而且會努力做到這是以上我個人對主委的一些建言跟期許謝謝"},{"start":316.858,"end":330.915,"text":"謝謝委員的指導和勉勵我想委員的第一個目標非常明確我想我們現在退伍過去朝向這個目標全力以赴的做就人民在哪裡服務到哪裡委員指導這裡面的建議我們現在不斷地在求"},{"start":332.096,"end":332.496,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":348.966,"end":350.747,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":368.9,"end":369.06,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":386.475,"end":387.096,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":415.594,"end":423.671,"text":"繼續努力來救謝謝委員的指導謝謝嚴主委以及退服會同仁今天的與會我們大家一起共同努力謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:35:07 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Innovation），實際上AI本身就結合了未來的人工智慧，在您後面的報告裡面引述出來了。所以我們的目的就是，榮民在哪裡，服務在哪裡，我們要支持達成目標。那運用的方法呢？就是在政府創新的指導下，資源整合為核心、層級式網路服務為骨幹，作為整體服務的思維、展開行動。我們採用的手段，要善用各地「榮民服務處」，作為信息蒐集的平台，這裡面包括了AI的運用，就像剛才前面委員提到的，有關床位的調節、管理系統，那是內部運用，但因為它是動態的，並不是每天都可以調節床位，所以資源整合的前端平台要配合做。我們也希望構建「榮總」、「分院」、「榮家」層級式合作照護網路。","我們做出建議，就是降低「榮總」體系工作負荷：考慮到就醫方便、醫療需求的前提下，我們也可以篩選民間優質醫療機構，與軍方醫院共同合作。舒緩醫患之間候（看）診時間：正確善用「綠色通道」規則，確保醫療流程效率與服務品質，減輕病患等待期間的焦慮心情與病痛。在民間常常講一些意外狀況，如果有三長兩短，那是民間的一個講法，但現在反映到什麼呢？就是掛號排隊的時間長、等候看病的時間長，領藥、檢查的時間長，可是真正因為受限於人力資源、醫療體系、醫師，所以看病問診的時間短、解釋病情的時間短。有些老榮民，實際上以我們專業醫生論述的講法，他的專業背景聽不懂這種疫情的狀況、徵候的狀況，所以我們慢慢來調整，變成三短兩長，讓前面的服務時間，縮短等候，後面產生效益，讓他安心聽懂的這個時間加長。","健全醫療體系與照顧環境：我們要在法律框架下，進行大數據的整合管理並持續優化資料庫，同時針對醫療體系及人員要提供AI風險控管跟AI教育，因為越用大的資料庫，產生資料外洩的機率會越高。甚至比方講平戰轉合，我們的軍醫院，比方軍人的健檢、將檢或者是體檢資料，跟民間醫院能不能互通，這都要法律來律定，並不是想像一上網就可以通，有些在這個醫院的病歷資料，戰時受傷，到另外一個醫院未必能夠取得，像這類東西是要我們大家共同努力的。退輔會在支持國軍戰力，維持照顧榮民、榮家，以及廣擴到民間的共同照護，扮演了一個很重要的角色，我們也相信榮民的需要，退輔會完全瞭解，而且會努力做到，這是以上我個人對主委的一些建言跟期許，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員的指導跟勉勵。委員的第一個目標非常明確，現在我們退輔會就朝向這個目標全力以赴在做，就是榮民在哪裡，服務到哪裡。有關委員指導的建議，我們現在不斷在求精進，每次都在做檢討，然後求進步：第一，以榮總的系統來講，我們希望能夠減輕工作負荷，事實上我們現在各地的榮總都有跟周邊民間醫院合作，成立一些聯盟，就是誠如剛剛委員指導的，怎麼樣去降低、減輕榮總本身的負荷，讓醫療資源都能夠擴大。其次是在服務方面，有關綠色通道的部分，我們榮院尤其是針對高齡的榮民，都有專人，包括志工在做綠色通道的服務，就如委員剛剛指導的，讓他後面的看診、醫療等時間長的服務能很快就緒，這部分我們還要持續精進和強化。最後是有關健康醫療環境的建置，我在業務報告裡面也特別強調了，因為我們現在要達到「健康台灣」的目標，所以榮總在這方面不管是教學研究或者是未來設施的更新和調整，都朝著精準醫學、高齡醫學，還有癌症醫學、細胞免疫治療、再生醫學這方面去強化，看看怎麼樣做一個全人健康的治療，在這方面照委員的指導去努力。我想只要榮民有需要，我們的服務就到那裡，我們會繼續努力來做，謝謝委員的指導。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝嚴主委以及退輔會同仁今天與會，我們大家一起共同努力。謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員，主委請回。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:08:50","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:39:17+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155268","委員名稱":"林岱樺","duration":530,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:30:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a9b99c9ea188caaf0b46d19fd1690e0d4c84522585fcddf7f10461491437e869a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.388468750000001,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.46346875,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.340968750000002,"end":14.982218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.25596875,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.84221875,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.70159375,"end":39.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.362218750000004,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.38284375,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.04846875,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.86909375,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.32846875,"end":97.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.19721875,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.01971875000001,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.65659375000001,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.04784375000001,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.93534375,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.95534375,"end":134.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.84534375,"end":152.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.55159375000002,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.45846875,"end":161.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.44471875000002,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.93659375000001,"end":174.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.84346875,"end":191.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.89784375000002,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.49034375000002,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.85721875000002,"end":197.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.05096875,"end":196.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.24909375000001,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.40471875,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.74159375000002,"end":207.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.66971875000002,"end":211.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.23846875,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.14534375000002,"end":213.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.02284375000002,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.21096875,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本席想針對我們高雄市連兩次風災 凱米颱風跟山陀颱風我們的農災損目前兩個颱風加起來都多達4億5000萬以上這個還可能在相關的數目還在累積當中所以對於我們在災害補助的"},{"start":37.688,"end":38.148,"text":"重述開發指數型的天災認定"},{"start":55.259,"end":82.467,"text":"好那這個東西我要問的是在我們這兩次颱風在高雄市所提出來的方案您這個直接適不適用好在我們光是以三頭而來講這個氣象中央氣象署就已經講了我們已經風速達到14級甚至我們高雄都有達到15級按照農業天然災害救助辦法就以我番石流來講最大的震數是每秒41.5"},{"start":84.427,"end":85.048,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":108.129,"end":108.249,"text":"農業部長林岱樺"},{"start":126.147,"end":126.807,"text":"有阿 我們掙托就有啦"},{"start":153.499,"end":168.089,"text":"沒有 所以有一些品項他有公告的 風速達到某個層級 雨量達到某個層級就可以公告我只問這次的山陀而颱風重創高雄中央計像署已經有講他已經14級以上了那這樣的標準我還要啟動是否可能夠符合你的觀察要看作務"},{"start":173.933,"end":174.473,"text":"市政府報告6項免災事件"},{"start":192.5,"end":192.54,"text":"主席"},{"start":210.239,"end":210.479,"text":"部長,你真的是太複雜了"},{"start":228.23,"end":239.917,"text":"市政府已經看我簡報的第4頁我瞭解我非常瞭解那你到底什麼時候合我合你這個程序市政府都照著做了嘛我知道那你合不合呢我們會合我們會經過專家會議會議會去確認以後去合專家會議是書面審嗎"},{"start":244.93,"end":267.121,"text":"專家會議就是不會去現場看我們會針對那專家會什麼時候核實核定你告訴我就好你證據我不管了既然你只要不下去會刊只做書面審那你什麼時候核定文收到之後核實核定我想我們會盡快盡快是什麼一個禮拜兩個禮拜三個禮拜四個禮拜三天內核定這是你的答覆嗎文收到後三天內核定是嗎"},{"start":272.725,"end":272.745,"text":"林岱樺"},{"start":292.028,"end":293.69,"text":"市政府向中央爭取變耕、修耕、種植、田青的對地補貼方案"},{"start":312.669,"end":340.084,"text":"基本上針對這個案子﹖如果他在一個適當的時間沒辦法播種﹖他原來是申請是大豆的﹖後來他做修正﹖我們原來他是同意的﹖所以是同意我們這個修耕﹖這個契作大作無法再播了﹖對,但是針對如果是種大豆﹖我們希望他是修耕﹖直接是耕離﹖而不去做田青﹖因為田青跟大豆主要屬於豆科的﹖如果大豆種不好﹖田青也會管理不好﹖"},{"start":340.624,"end":340.644,"text":"林岱樺"},{"start":361.531,"end":383.263,"text":"超過到昨天喔都還沒有完全復電喔都有超過4天5天6天喔看這個這個復電的狀態漁溫打水機無法運作他只要30秒整個整個池就會死光了所以在本這個漁溫的這個慘重齁所以本席認為救急也要救競爭力不只農漁產損失的補助要從寬從幽從速再來針對設施"},{"start":389.206,"end":389.366,"text":"農產品的補助"},{"start":418.59,"end":445.671,"text":"那設備呢?那個不是競爭力嗎?那個還是人民很從政的負擔欸整個設施都飛走了那你說這個應不應該這是概念的這是您對於這件事情你這邊要做一個這個允諾這個救急也要救競爭力設施也應該要納入天然災害的這個設備當中的一個救治項目包括溫網溫網溫網室"},{"start":448.837,"end":469.959,"text":"您認不認同?如果你認同就要啟動相關的修改了在現在的規範裡面其實我們都有相關的這些救助設置設備也有補助的部門沒有你們在天然災沒有你是在相關的經常門或者計畫競爭計畫當中有所以說部長天然災救助有啦有啦只要駁天然災有"},{"start":471.806,"end":472.827,"text":"天然災害辦法當中有沒有補助設施受損?"},{"start":492.386,"end":521.673,"text":"有有報告委員有所以我們現在我林岱的那個餘溫啊那個鋤電都破了啊石壁都破了啊餘溫沒有我我我們要講好齁第一個齁停電的過程中齁發電機我們有我們發電機平常就有在補助了所以他的發電系統是養殖業必要的好來我們時間到了所以事實上是沒有請你修改你的天然災害設施辦法好既然現在沒有我現在就希望這些設施都能夠申請優惠貸款可不可以"},{"start":522.695,"end":522.815,"text":"林岱樺委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:30:27 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09:39:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155268","gazette":{"lineno":79,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時30分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，針對我們高雄市連兩次風災──凱米颱風跟山陀兒颱風，這兩個颱風讓我們的農災損目前加起來多達4億5,000萬以上，相關的數目還在累積當中，所以對於我們在災害補助的……您一直強調「重塑」，所以本席今天要跟你確認所謂的「重塑」。","你在簡報第17頁確實也講了，「全面導入天災勘災APP」、「開發指數型天災認定標準」，我要問的是，您所提出來的方案在這兩次颱風過後的高雄市是否直接適用？光是以山陀兒來講，中央氣象署就已經講了，風速已經達到14級，甚至我們高雄還高達15級，按照農業天然災害救助辦法，以番石榴來講，最大的風速是每秒41.5公尺，在14級以上已經達到免勘災了。你可以講「免勘災」，可是高雄市政府現在還是啟動勘災啊！表示你上有政策，下卻並沒有照著辦啊！因為它怕！對於所謂「免勘災」，你可不可以再實質定義一下？是直接書面審，我只要照片po上來就直接審查，這樣就好了嗎？還是還有什麼作業，請你明確定義什麼叫做「免勘災」！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當一個農業品項要做勘災公告的時候，第一個要達到20%，因為免勘災的部分，它一定具有三個要件：第一個就是，它在整個區域具有普遍性、具有一致性，整個災損具有嚴重性，要具有這三個部分才能夠達到免勘災。這邊所提到的就是依照農業天然災害救助辦法裡面，一定要先有公告為天然……達天氣參數規定的時候才能夠免勘災。"],["林委員岱樺：有啊！我們山陀兒就有了啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，有一些品項有公告風速達到某個層級、雨量達到某個層級就可以公告免勘災。"],["林委員岱樺：我只問這次的山陀兒颱風重創高雄，中央氣象署已經有講它已經是14級以上了，這樣的標準我還要啟動……是不是符合免勘災？"],["陳部長駿季：要看作物。"],["林委員岱樺：好，作物我們都有啊！市政府也都送上來了，我們免勘災的項目在我高雄市大寮區等9區，芭樂、香蕉、棗、紅豆、洋蔥苗圃、蔬菜類6項免勘災，市政府已經報上來了，那你們核不核？要不要再下去看？還是報上來，你就直接核定了？這叫做免勘災呀！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，當整個要達到免勘災的程度就是縣政府會報上來。"],["林委員岱樺：對，我們報上來了，然後你什麼時候核定？"],["陳部長駿季：然後在報上來的時候我們會開專家會議去確認，我們希望……"],["林委員岱樺：你的確認是不是要下去再勘災一次？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們跟縣市政府有協調，縣市政府要報這個免勘災的時候，其實它已經同時邀請了我們的改良場跟我們的農糧署去現場看了，他們去現場看了以後……"],["林委員岱樺：部長，你這個真的是太複雜了，市政府已經……看我簡報的第4頁。"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解、我非常瞭解。"],["林委員岱樺：你到底什麼時候核？你這個程序市政府都照著做了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道……"],["林委員岱樺：那你核不核呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會核，我們要經過專家會議確認以後……"],["林委員岱樺：所謂專家會議是書面審嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：專家會議就是不會去現場看，而是針對我們各改良場……"],["林委員岱樺：對，所以專家會議何時會核定，你告訴我就好。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們……"],["林委員岱樺：你的程序我不管了，既然你不下去會勘，只做書面審，那你什麼時候核定？文收到之後何時核定？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會儘快。"],["林委員岱樺：儘快是什麼？一個禮拜、兩個禮拜？"],["陳部長駿季：絕對不會一個禮拜。"],["林委員岱樺：三個禮拜、四個禮拜？"],["陳部長駿季：我想今天或明天就會……"],["林委員岱樺：3天內核定？這是你的答復嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對……"],["林委員岱樺：文收到後3天內核定，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是昨天下午收到，我想我們明天之前一定會核定。"],["林委員岱樺：好，3天。"],["陳部長駿季：快的話，我們也希望今天，能夠愈來愈好。"],["林委員岱樺：昨天收到了，所以今天就會核定了。"],["陳部長駿季：我們今天會開專家會議，專家會議開完以後還要經過行政……"],["林委員岱樺：好，今天本席下午就有會勘，就在我們大寮這邊，我就把你這個好消息帶下去，你們也有派員直接來做說明。","再來，我們另外有個訴求，大寮區因為豪雨，契作大豆無法如期播種影響農時，所以我們市政府也向中央爭取變更「休耕（種植田菁）」的對地給付方案，你們同不同意？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，針對這個案子，如果它在一個適當的時間沒辦法播種，它原來是申請大豆的，後來它做修正，我們原則上是同意的。"],["林委員岱樺：所以是同意，我們這個休耕，這個契作大豆無法再播種了，所以……"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是如果是針對種大豆，我們是希望它是休耕直接耕犁，而不去做田菁，因為田菁跟大豆同是屬於豆科的，如果大豆種不好，田菁也會管理不好。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你認為大寮既然你有那麼多的指導，所以在休耕當中，我們是要改種田菁的對地給付方案？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是希望他休耕，我們會再跟他溝通，希望他休耕就好，直接翻耕就可以領了。"],["林委員岱樺：好。在魚塭的部分，光是山陀兒颱風，在我的選區林園到昨天都還沒有完全復電，都有超過4天、5天、6天，就看這個復電的狀態。魚塭打水區無法運作，它只要30秒整個池就會死光了，所以魚塭受災慘重。","本席認為救急也要救競爭力，不只農、漁產損失的補助要從寬、從優、從速，再來針對設施受損，你們現在的天然災害只針對農產品，但卻沒有針對設施受損，所以本席建議就是在你的農業天然災害救助辦法當中，應該納入設施的受損，這才叫做救競爭力啊！否則你農產品補助之後，像現在的風災那麼大，我魚塭翻了、工寮也翻了、農寮也翻了，然後我設備進水了，你只給我農產品的補助，那設備呢？那個不是競爭力嗎？那個還是人民很沈重的負擔耶！整個設施都飛走了，你說這個應不應該？這是您對這件事情，你在這邊要做個允諾。救急也要救競爭力，設備也應該要納入農業天然災害救助辦法的救助項目，包括溫網室，您認不認同？"],["陳部長駿季：我想……"],["林委員岱樺：如果你認同就要啟動相關的修改了。"],["陳部長駿季：在現在的規範裡面其實我們都有相關的救助，設施設備也有補助的部分。"],["林委員岱樺：沒有，在農業天然災害救助辦法裡沒有，而是在相關的「經常門」或者是競爭計畫當中才有，所以說……"],["陳部長駿季：有啦！農業天然災害救助辦法有，只要符合這個就有。"],["林委員岱樺：農業天然災害救助辦法有設？"],["陳部長駿季：它在公告的時候會講。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那你就正式地……"],["陳部長駿季：我請農糧署署長稍微說明一下，好不好？"],["林委員岱樺：好，署長來。我的題目很簡單，農業天然災害救助辦法當中有沒有補助設施受損？"],["姚署長士源：有。報告委員，有……"],["林委員岱樺：所以現在我林園魚塭的屋頂都飛走了，設備都壞了……"],["陳部長駿季：魚塭沒有，我們要講好，第一個，停電的過程中……發電機我們平常就有在補助了，所以它的發電系統是養殖漁業必要的部分。"],["林委員岱樺：我的時間到了，所以事實上是沒有，請你修改你的農業天然災害救助辦法。既然現在沒有，我現在就希望這些設施都能夠申請優惠貸款，可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：優惠貸款的部分，只要你遇到天然災害公告以後，它就會連結到優惠貸款。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員，部長請回座。","下一位質詢請邱議瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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"text":"然後我們出生的人數少了3000人啊所以部長民進黨越走越黑啦2016年有20萬人啦啊每年降1萬到去年是13萬啊現在還看來很不可觀喔很這個很危險喔所以部長你對這個傲視全球另類的傲視全球少子化的成績齁你要有些什麼想法啦我現在用數字告訴你是失敗的啦好第二張齁"},{"start":64.324,"end":87.718,"text":"部長為了少子化問題我知道大家也做了一些努力了原來有個少子女對策計畫在國建署但是我要請問為什麼明年的計畫經費相較於今年還少了7億元少了將近兩成到底是國人不知道使用還是他不需要使用還是他不符合使用方法你知道嗎怎麼還邊是放棄了嗎"},{"start":91.56,"end":107.197,"text":"衛福部是放棄了在搶救少子化嗎?這編的錢還比去年還要少這麼多這是第一個就是編列的預算那第二個我要談的還是人工生殖法兩千塊錢你就就基本的捐精捐卵的人工生殖法到現在已經17百年那個法度現在都還沒有改變"},{"start":110.917,"end":125.472,"text":"那這個等於是你整個進步的法案你完全沒有跟上而且我們人工生殖技術越來越進步越來越成熟完全按兵不動所以我是不是要請這個國建署齁一週內給我一個資料為什麼少子女這個對策計畫齁今年還少編了這個7億元齁將近兩次欸塞北一個一週內給我好嗎齁"},{"start":133.579,"end":142.303,"text":"市長,我要了解一下嘛,到底發生什麼事,我們來想辦法努力。我們絕對不會輕視少子化的問題,而且會一定要按照需求,按照那個實際上,因為我們的那個未滿2歲人口數目"},{"start":150.026,"end":150.466,"text":"下一張。"},{"start":165.206,"end":179.633,"text":"部長,你們看一下,處長也可以一起看。那這麼多企業你們看出共同性嗎?這都很有名的。NVIDIA、Netflix、American Express、Google等等。還有Meta、ST Loader都有。你猜得出他們有什麼共同性嗎?"},{"start":181.769,"end":196.287,"text":"太難了我知道好下一個答案來下一張現在看那個企業齁都有很多耳熟能詳的他都提供人工生殖的那個補助的大企業我要跟你講齁像這個化妝品那個SD Loader齁他提供齁"},{"start":197.708,"end":217.756,"text":"15萬美元的人工生殖福利可以用在代理孕母跟試管嬰兒好 這個為大家帶來希望跟夢想的迪士尼迪士尼也提供了75000美元的代理孕母福利Google也是300萬台幣的這個福利給代理孕母 光光這個部分就是說這些大企業他們在鼓勵員工要來成家我們來看看我們自己臺灣這個黃仁勛先生的輝達公司大家可以去網站看"},{"start":222.458,"end":242.854,"text":"他被評比為代孕福利衝第一,最佳的企業。已在官網上寫著,這段話很讓人感動。發展家庭的這個決定是一個重大的決定。在你人生生命中最重要時刻之一,無論你走哪一條路,我們都會在這裡為你提供支援。支援可用在收養生育設施跟試管嬰兒治療,還代孕。"},{"start":244.935,"end":254.43,"text":"無論你如何去擴大你的家庭我們都會為您和您生命中最重要的人提供公平公正的資源這是非常讓人感動的一句話黃仁勳台灣之光"},{"start":256.357,"end":275.128,"text":"﹗"},{"start":275.268,"end":275.729,"text":"我國建署三字民調"},{"start":291.315,"end":312.228,"text":"3次國家民調2010年13年15年我簡單複習一下3年總來是這個是3次的總的標準大概是有8成人支持代孕6成的人是支持2成沒有意見不反對2011年超過一半就贊成說妻子無子宮這就可以找人來代孕2013年68 7成的民眾不贊成繼續禁止"},{"start":313.809,"end":342.135,"text":"因為當時是禁止的而且86人他贊成就是要把他納入規範那在2015年內是有6成人是支持代孕的2成人沒有反對所以3次民調當中大概都有8成人支持給予代理孕母一個因懷孕所需要的費用跟損失部長難道不知道你們最近收集什麼意見五月底都提出那個布板你收集什麼意見所有意見你這樣反對人就拼命寫拼命講那個意見公平嗎公正嗎"},{"start":343.015,"end":343.035,"text":"部長"},{"start":366.129,"end":384.254,"text":"其實這次我看到這個衛福部部板的人工私人我是感謝的因為這是一個相當平權的有照顧到每一個人但是上週陳金輝委員就質詢的時候總質詢的時候您說要10月底才能送出這個送到性評會是嗎我再跟您確定是什麼時候要送到性評會"},{"start":385.899,"end":408.979,"text":"包委員現在我們經過了6次以上可能更多的專家會議因為的確最多的問題還是最多的雙方的意見還是在爭議還是在代理義務這個部分所以我們很用心的已經很鳥籠代孕了我們很擔心這個代孕出來即便你的不本出來都沒有人可以適用喔"},{"start":411.417,"end":413.282,"text":"現在的時程是這樣,我們希望國民家康署能夠在11月"},{"start":418.467,"end":443.838,"text":"你信憑會你也是委員啊?11月送到那個衛福部,那我們先為衛福部法規會相關的處理以後我們...這2001幾年就開始做了啦,12月會送到行政院你認為這個信憑會有權利退回衛福部的法案嗎?他上次這樣做啦,他上次沒有把他,會前會沒有把他放在議程裡啊他上次這樣做你允許嗎?你允許信憑會再把你的法案退回去嗎?不列在議程裡面嗎?"},{"start":445.765,"end":456.715,"text":"你一直說要凝聚共識再送審這30年沒有共識我們在等30年嗎?天下有什麼事有共識?共識是誰的共識?賴清德總統也在40%他就做總統啊我的答應百幾十%呢?兩倍呢?為什麼他可以當總統我的答應不能過?"},{"start":469.059,"end":487.659,"text":"你要找誰找共識?什麼叫共識?兩杯勒?好看一下賴總統你的上司賴立委任何一個政策都不可能因為社會少數人的意見不可能說得到百分之百的共識就是要去處理過去的同分法不就是如此嗎?無比無比我們還是讓他過啦"},{"start":489.281,"end":507.693,"text":"任何有動見的執政者能夠摒棄隔絕這樣的聲音才是能夠做出對國家人權最有利的決定。你看那金德利委2002年就是這樣有先見之明的人,他提出了代孕法案。那是20年前,將近23年他還調查了很多做了一個非常完整的很感人的一個法案說明。"},{"start":508.53,"end":537.825,"text":"部長我必須相信你會延續他的意志啊不然你去問啊你隨時可以找得到他也不能每天跟他抱怨別人啊你當然可以跟他說啊說靠人家沒有人家曹志工你自己是人家沒有一直說人家他國務院也跟他說有有有你一直告訴人家說我20幾年就開始支持你了他說支持啊你去問你去問總統外服部版本人工生殖法讓誕生同性子宮有病免訓在這個草版裡面都能夠有機會拿回他們籌組家庭的"},{"start":538.685,"end":562.027,"text":"權力啊!永遠沒有共識啦!要等到當時啦!要等到當時!這個我很討厭的團體一直辦很多直播啦!一直在說代孕有問題!然後不曉得誰讓他待在心理院待了一輩子!他講什麼?他講什麼瘋子你知道嗎?同性伴侶跟單身有燃眉之急!只供有病變的人先放一邊!"},{"start":563.448,"end":577.135,"text":"我對這就是剝削這個就是階級化他來決定誰需要誰不需要單身跟同性有兩美之際這個我們都支持單身跟同性那個子宮有病變了你放一邊脫鉤不做"},{"start":580.694,"end":594.583,"text":"不然你也是信憑會委員,你會輸嗎?你剛才說出來沒有?你以前也是支持的喔?你也是提案支持代孕的喔?把人的需求分高低前後實在讓人覺得噁心!可惡!最後,部長一個進步的法案真的有需要為了永遠的少數的反對者在這邊繼續戳頭嗎?再一個30年嗎?"},{"start":611.613,"end":625.781,"text":"大運在全世界都只有小於百分之一的出錯率我告訴你齁離婚率台灣齁大概超過30%收養中值率我給你扣過收養中值率多少黃淑昀在你家裡去收養你只要收養中值率多少我可以跟你說嗎我寫題過你會記嗎答案你會記嗎社交組知道啊台灣的收養中值率57、58%六成請各位明白六成的收養中值率如果你要認為說為什麼大運要完美的演出"},{"start":640.56,"end":656.109,"text":"你不允許他有一點點出錯率嗎?才小於1%如果你認為出錯率要用出錯率這群女人講的要用出錯率去決定要不要通過一個法案我告訴你我們要禁止的是結婚婚姻因為婚姻出錯率有30%我們要禁止的是收養因為收養出錯率有60%"},{"start":660.031,"end":660.151,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:25:34 - 09:37:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155267","gazette":{"lineno":149,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時25分）麻煩請邱部長，部長早安。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，CIA前一陣子公布了2024年全球生育率的預測，因為還差幾個月嘛，臺灣拿下第227名，生育率是1.11，南韓倒數第二名是1.12，新加坡是1.17，都還比我們前面。請看右邊這個數字，剛剛月琴委員也有稍微提到，今年是龍年，到8月為止，我們跟去年比，出生的人數少了3,000人，部長，民進黨愈拼愈糟糕，2016年有20萬人，每年降1萬，到去年是13萬，現在看來很不樂觀、很危險。所以部長，對於這個另類的傲視全球少子化成績，你要有一些想法，我現在用數字告訴你，是失敗的。部長，為了因應少子化問題，我知道大家也做了一些努力，原來在國健署有個少子女對策計畫，但是我要請問為什麼明年的計畫經費相較於今年還少了7億元，少了將近兩成？到底是國人不知道可以使用還是他不需要使用？還是他不符合使用規定？你知道嗎？你們是放棄了嗎？衛福部是放棄搶救少子化嗎？這編的錢還比去年少這麼多，這是第一個，編列的預算問題。","第二個，我要談的還是人工生殖法，2007年你就有基本的捐精捐卵的人工生殖法，到現在已經十七、八年了，那個法到現在都還沒有改變，等於是愈進步的法案，你完全沒有跟上，而且我們人工生殖的技術愈來愈進步，愈來愈成熟，完全按兵不動，所以，我要請國健署一週內給我一個資料，為什麼少子女的對策計畫今年還少編了7億元，將近兩成，可以嗎？一週內給我好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，沒問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要了解一下，到底發生什麼事，我們來想辦法努力。"],["邱部長泰源：我們絕對不會輕視少子化的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是數字愈來愈差，成績愈來愈差。"],["邱部長泰源：而是按照需求、按照實際上……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是要修正啦！"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們未滿2歲的人口數，114年比去年少了八千多人。"],["陳委員昭姿：少就是要想怎麼讓他變多嘛，不然少了就跟著變……"],["邱部長泰源：委員的卓見很好。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就跟著走，跟著往下走。"],["邱部長泰源：我們應該來做更精進的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：讓他用得多才是對的。部長，你看一下，署長也可以一起看，這麼多企業，你能看出共同性嗎？這都是很有名的，NVIDIA、Netflix、American Express、Google，還有Meta、ESTEE LAUDER等等，你猜得出他們有什麼共同性嗎？太難了，我知道，部長現在看到的那些企業，包括很多耳熟能詳的，他們都是提供人工生殖補助的大企業。我要跟你說，像這個化妝品ESTEE LAUDER，它提供15萬美元的人工生殖福利，可以用在代理孕母跟試管嬰兒。為大家帶來希望跟夢想的迪士尼，也提供了7萬5,000美元的代理孕母福利。Google也是提供300萬臺幣的福利給代理孕母，光這個部分，就是說這些大企業在鼓勵員工成家。","我們來看看我們的臺灣之光──黃仁勳先生的輝達公司，大家可以去網站看，它被評比為代孕福利衝第一的最佳企業，他們在官網上寫的這段話很讓人感動：發展家庭的決定是一個重大的決定，在您人生生命中最重要的時刻之一，無論您走哪一條路，我們都會在這裡為您提供支援。資源可用於收養、生育測試跟試管嬰兒治療和代孕。無論您如何去擴大家庭，我們都會為您和您生命中最重要的人提供公平公正的支援。這是非常讓人感動的一段話，黃仁勳──臺灣之光！部長，家沒有一定的樣子，要怎麼組成家庭也沒有絕對的答案，我們不應該替別人指定選項，收養可以，代孕當然也可以，不分優劣高低，國家的法案政策應該是讓人民有選擇權，而不是粗暴地沒收一線生機。部長、署長，我說的就是代孕，代理孕母被沒收了幾十年，沒人這樣的，全世界都已經走到這個境界了。","我再跟你複習一下，署長，國健署三次國家民調，2010年、2013年、2015年，我簡單複習一下，這三次總的來說大概是有八成的人支持代孕，六成的人是支持，兩成的人沒有意見、不反對。2010年有超過一半贊成妻子無子宮就可以找人來代孕。2013年有68%，近七成的民眾不贊成繼續禁止，因為當時是禁止的，而且86%的人贊成要把它納入規範。2015年有六成的人是支持代孕的，兩成的人沒有反對，所以三次民調當中，大概都有八成五支持給予代理孕母因懷孕所需要的費用跟損失，部長難道不知道？你們最近蒐集什麼意見？5月底就提出部版了，你蒐集什麼意見？反對的人就拼命寫、拼命講，那個意見公平嗎？公正嗎？需要的人都躲在後面哭，在我後面哭啊！國家民調你不做，你為什麼不做一次民調，這幾個月來在蹉跎什麼？5月底公布，你現在不做民調，可是你不用花錢做民調了，十幾年前做的民調，大家都同意，哪有可能「倒退嚕」啦！哪有可能「倒退嚕」啦！怎麼可能更保守呢？國家民調自己要承認，好嗎？","部長，其實這次我看到衛福部部版人工生殖法，我是感謝的，因為這是相當平權，有照顧到每一個人，但是上週陳菁徽委員總質詢的時候，您說要10月底才能送到性平會，是嗎？我再跟您確認一次，什麼時候要送到性平會？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，現在我們經過了6次以上，可能更多的專家會議，的確最多的問題、雙方的意見、爭議，還是在代理孕母部分，所以我們很用心的……"],["陳委員昭姿：同一批人啦！已經很鳥籠代孕了，我們很擔心即便你的部版出來，都沒有人可以適用喔！你還在擋，部長，我就跟你說過了……"],["邱部長泰源：現在時程是這樣，我們希望國民健康署能夠在11月……"],["陳委員昭姿：你也是性平會委員啊！"],["邱部長泰源：11月送到衛福部，經過衛福部法規會相關的處理以後，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：這二零零幾年就開始做了啦！做了2、30年了啦！"],["邱部長泰源：預計12月會送到行政院。"],["陳委員昭姿：你認為性平會有權力退回衛福部的法案嗎？它上次這樣做啦！它上次會前會沒有把它放在議程裡啊！它上次這樣做，你允許嗎？你允許性平會再把你的法案退回去，不列在議程裡面嗎？部長，你一直說要凝聚共識再送審，這30年沒有共識，我們再等30年嗎？部長，天下有什麼事有共識？共識是誰的共識？共識是誰的共識？賴清德總統也才40%而已，他就當總統了，我的代孕有80%，兩倍耶！為什麼他可以當總統，我的代孕不能過？你要找誰找共識？什麼叫共識？兩倍耶！","部長，來看一下賴總統、你的上司、賴立委，任何一個政策都因為社會少數人的意見，不可能得到百分之百的共識，就是要去處理，過去的同婚法不就是如此嗎？五五比我們還是讓它過啦！任何有洞見的執政者能夠摒棄隔絕這樣的聲音，才是能夠做出對國家人權最有利的決定。你看賴清德立委2002年就是這樣有先見之明的人，他提出了代孕法案，那是22年前耶！將近23年了，他還調查了很多，做了一個非常完整、很感人的一個法案說明。部長，我必須相信你會延續他的意志，不然你去問他啊！你隨時可以找得到他，也可以打電話跟他抱怨別人啊！你當然可以跟他講，問他說昭姿說你支持他，是不是真的？他一定說是真的。他在國宴時也跟我說有，說我一直告訴人家說他二十幾年前就開始支持，他說支持啊！你去問總統，衛福部版本人工生殖法讓單身、同性、子宮有病女性在這個草版裡面，都能夠有機會拿回他們籌組家庭的權利。永遠沒有共識啦！你要等到什麼時候？要等到什麼時候？","我很討厭的這個團體辦很多直播，一直在說代孕有問題，然後不曉得誰讓他待在性平會，待了一輩子，他說什麼瘋話你知道嗎？同性伴侶跟單身有燃眉之急，子宮有病變的人先放一邊，部長，這個就是剝削、這個就是階級化，他來決定誰需要、誰不需要，單身跟同性有燃眉之急，這個我們都支持，子宮有病變的人你放一邊脫鉤不做？部長，你也是性平會委員，你會輸他嗎？你敢說出來嗎？你以前也是支持的喔！你也是提案支持代孕的喔！把人的需求分高低前後，實在讓人覺得噁心、可惡！下次你就遇得到。","最後，部長，一個進步的法案真的有需要為了永遠的少數反對者，在那邊繼續蹉跎嗎？再一個30年嗎？部長，代孕在全世界都只有小於1%的出錯率。我告訴你，臺灣離婚率大概30%；我考過你，收養終止率多少？黃淑英一直叫人去收養，你知道收養終止率多少嗎？我那天才跟你說而已，我洩題過，你記得嗎？答案你記得嗎？社家署知道啊！臺灣的收養終止率57%、58%，各位媒體朋友，六成的收養終止率，為什麼你認為代孕要完美的演出？不允許它有一點點出錯率嗎？它小於1%，如果你認為要用出錯率，這群女人講的要用出錯率去決定要不要通過一個法案，我告訴你，我們要禁止的是結婚、婚姻，因為婚姻出錯率有30%；我們要禁止的是收養，因為收養出錯率有60%。部長，要想一想各種狀況，你為什麼要讓這些人──沒有理智、沒有需求的健康、自私人在擋住我的法案呢？我的法案不是我要用的，很多人在等，子宮有病變是他們想要的嗎？法案趕快出來吧！在性平會好好地把你的立場站穩，部長你要站穩喔！你的老闆也是支持喔！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，也麻煩你了，你們都是性平會的委員，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員，支持你啦！謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:11:22","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:34:46+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155266","委員名稱":"羅美玲","duration":682,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:23:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600ab2fe0d060651a19d6947fb22ff9043c6c84522585fcddf7fd4ef907c701a5e415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.5578437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.442843750000002,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.45971875,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.742218750000003,"end":134.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.26534375,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.01409375,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.58471875,"end":158.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.78284375,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.98034375,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.22534375,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.32221875000002,"end":230.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.61534375000002,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.50096875000003,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.17159375000003,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.94346875000002,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.44096875000002,"end":275.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.5409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有請嚴主委請嚴主委主委好就如剛剛主委在這個業務報告所提到的我們全台有16所的榮民之家然後我們又結合了4所的這個榮總跟12所榮總分院的醫療資源的發展這一個"},{"start":29.326,"end":29.546,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":45.365,"end":45.625,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":64.619,"end":86.466,"text":"鳳林、玉里、灣橋、屏東的四所榮總分院也都增建住宿室長照機構的床位對於退府會持續來擴大榮院跟榮家的照護量本席是予以肯定可是當然我們要維持照護的量一定要有"},{"start":87.506,"end":90.048,"text":"實際辦理業務人數占整體時有人數的比例這些無所容加其實都"},{"start":111.966,"end":114.387,"text":"對於這個不到60%的實際辦理業務人數來講的話,我們會不會覺得說在人力方面會不足呢?"},{"start":139.153,"end":148.119,"text":"謝謝委員指導,我們目前16所農家8782床,現在目前的佔床率是6987,就是將近有80,將近有8成。剛剛委員現在公布的這個是實際辦理業務人數占……"},{"start":155.964,"end":160.045,"text":"護理師是符合老人福利機構設立的標準,就是護理人員隨時保持有一個人上班,然後養護跟施治1比20的配置"},{"start":176.69,"end":188.191,"text":"另外還有140名的社工﹚社工的人民這些目前來檢討設置的一個標準他是符合而且甚至於高過這個老人福利機構設立的標準都符合"},{"start":189.085,"end":213.592,"text":"所以說您是覺得說這個都是符合這個標準因為我們在實際辦理業務的這個人的內容就是大家包含的行政、醫事、藥事、護理跟社工人員所以我們是覺得說低於這60%的這些人員的配額其實它是符合我們目前所有的標準"},{"start":214.392,"end":231.47,"text":"主委說的是這樣子嗎?是,我們這邊的資料是護理人員,護理師的人力的一個配置,加上我們的社工人員有140個人,這個兩個數字加起來,現在目前都是符合老人機構的所以目前並沒有人力不足的問題是不是?"},{"start":233.111,"end":255.842,"text":"人力都沒有問題我看到像板橋台北他們都有到70%甚至以上像這個八德榮家有將近80%所以我現在看到的這幾家都是低於60%在這個比例上來講的話跟其他的榮家比的話他是有一些落差的"},{"start":256.562,"end":257.282,"text":"我們就想做一個詳細的說明"},{"start":280.711,"end":288.278,"text":"委員好 我是救援養護署署長周星國這個資料是去年我們評鑑的資料我委請外面的評鑑委員依照老服機構的評鑑標準來評鑑這個事務能力從去年開始評鑑委員認為說事務能力是有缺盡快來補食但是在各農家運作上面它整體來看"},{"start":302.592,"end":312.061,"text":"運作都是沒有問題的他只是提醒我們補食能力那這段時間有關事務能力我們盡快來補食相關的能力營運這個農家運作的需求"},{"start":313.244,"end":319.948,"text":"目前為止如果說這些60%以下的這位農家那剛剛主委的意思是說實際上沒有人力不足的這個問題那如果這樣子講的話剛剛處長是您剛才講的這樣子的話跟主委講的可能會有一點點的出入因為我們的照護人力是沒有問題因為農家有照護你們的照護人力是屬於這個採這個外包的是不是委外的方式我們是勞務委外"},{"start":339.778,"end":365.711,"text":"勞務委外那有含在這裏面的人數嗎?不含在裏面是不是?所以這部分照顧的人數是委外的部分對委外還有本身的護理師護理人員是那照顧工作室執行是沒有問題的這是事務工作執行的方面我跟委員報告是護理師加上社工照顧的人民那委員這個表示整個是就是業務就是事務裡面所以這塊我們還要再繼續再繼續補師"},{"start":372.621,"end":382.374,"text":"站床率的部分雖然是說我們後來還是有開放一些床位讓一般的民眾來使用可是我們"},{"start":382.654,"end":382.874,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":398.755,"end":399.416,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":420.034,"end":429.979,"text":"提出一些檢討希望說這個部分我們的帳船率是不是可以有效的來做這個提升那當然我也有看了兩份資料舉個例子像這個張化榮家來講那像我們一般的安養也就是說我們榮民入住有分公費跟自費嘛公費跟自費目前的話我們都還是有一些空床嘛像這個公費的部分還有61床然後"},{"start":448.707,"end":452.79,"text":"自費還有16床可是我們看到說開放給一般民眾其實還有後住的人數有兩個人在等待那像這個的話能不能再因為它是在同一個榮民之家這也可以做調整嘛看起來像我們一般民眾我們開放給民眾的是53床那目前入住也是53床表示它是滿床的狀態還有兩個人在等"},{"start":472.122,"end":479.993,"text":"可是我們看到就是給榮民的公費自費也好可是他到目前為止他是有床位的這可以在院內裡面做調整嗎"},{"start":483.516,"end":512.523,"text":"像專化的農家他就有這個狀況報告主委我跟您報告一下我們每個禮拜都會檢討這個床位就您講的如果說農民沒有後住的狀況之下一般民眾有後住那我們會把這個床位轉給一般民眾來那你可能說有些兩個床位那你看那個數據也許他甚至在辦手續中但是這個床位的這個調整我們每週都會在做說還是會做調整就對了對希望這個資源能夠共享OK好"},{"start":513.763,"end":532.512,"text":"對,像彰化榮家您說因為他是兩個後駐人數也許這個他就會調整到其他的這個床位去可是我看到這個巴德榮家我們來看看巴德他像他一般安養有分公費跟自費的部分而目前後駐的人數呢"},{"start":533.793,"end":548.591,"text":"公費的部分有31人自費的部分有21人一般民眾更是高達180人看起來床位非常不足我們再來看看夫妻安養的部分也是有分公費跟自費"},{"start":549.252,"end":570.544,"text":"可是像夫妻安養的部分我們公費有18床然後自費有120床那目前他可申請的床數這兩個夫妻安養不管公費跟自費加起來其實有69床是可以是空床的部分那這部分他們如何去做調整這沒有辦法去做調整"},{"start":571.505,"end":595.288,"text":"我看要候住像這個一般安養的部分候住的人數非常的高可是夫妻安養的部分呢空場率又這麼的高這沒有辦法做調整嗎這是我在出去是看到的這個這個問題好不好委員因為夫妻並同案子是夫妻進來一起住進來的對他是兩個床位嘛他是兩個因為我看他們的照片喔座長你看右邊這個如果開放給一般的"},{"start":596.409,"end":615.885,"text":"一般安養的話是否一般安養可以入住那你們現在一般安養都是單人房嗎全部都是單人房嗎他的空間比較大如果說我今天一個人住到夫妻房裡面他空間是比較大其他住單人房的會比較之下為什麼你可以住夫妻房"},{"start":616.525,"end":616.805,"text":"主任委員"},{"start":643.95,"end":668.826,"text":"沒床的就沒床,空床就空在那裡,我想這個部分是沒有辦法做調整。對,我們在做聯合調度,我們實際上從451床已經增加到1635床,就一般的民眾,已經不斷的滾動式的調整。那會按照委員的指導,我們會請各農家評估狀況,如果是可以適當做一些調節就調節,然後地區、區域的也可以做一些調整。"},{"start":671.015,"end":679.224,"text":"本席是希望就是說我們的資源因為我們一開始就是說資源共享那也能夠希望這個資源能夠充分被利用以上謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:23:24 - 09:34:46","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155266","gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時23分）謝謝主席，有請嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：主委好。就如剛剛主委在業務報告所提到的，我們全臺有16所榮民之家，然後結合了4所榮總跟12所榮總分院的醫療資源來發展醫養合一的照護模式，本席所瞭解目前有8,782個床位，其中有1,621個床位是開放給一般社區的民眾入住來擴大資源的共享。剛剛主委也有提到，為了擴大榮院跟榮家照護的能量，所以目前我們板橋、八德等5所榮家正在增建失智床位，再來在鳳林、玉里、灣橋還有屏東的4所榮總分院，也都增建住宿式長照機構的床位，對於退輔會持續擴大榮院跟榮家的照護量能，本席是予以肯定，當然我們要維持照護的量能一定要有充足的人力。","我們看看這一個圖表，本席發現16所的榮民之家，像彰化、花蓮、馬蘭、屏東、佳里，我們可以發現它實際辦理業務人數占整體實有人數的比例，這5所榮家都低於60%。我們都知道榮民之家的住民絕大部分都是年紀比較大，然後可能還有一些失智、行動不便的這些住民，對於實際辦理業務人數不到60%，我們會不會覺得在人力方面不足呢？請問主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員指導，我們目前16所榮家、8,782床，目前的占床率是6,987將近有百分之八十，將近有八成。剛剛委員公布的是實際辦理業務人數占實有人數……"],["羅委員美玲：對，是照護人數。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們這邊瞭解調查，現有護理師人力是402人，是符合老人福利機構設立的標準，就是護理人員隨時保持有1個人值班，然後養護跟失智1比20的配置；另外還有140名社工的人力，而這些目前來檢討設置的一個標準它是符合，而且甚至高過老人福利機構設立的標準，是都符合的。"],["羅委員美玲：所以您是覺得這個都符合標準？因為我們知道實際辦理業務的內容，包含了行政、醫事、藥事、護理跟社工人員，所以這些人員的配額低於60%，這其實是符合我們目前所有的標準，主委說的是這樣子嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我們這邊的資料是護理師人力的一個配置，加上我們的社工人員有140人，這兩個數字加起來目前都是符合老人機構的標準。"],["羅委員美玲：所以目前並沒有人力不足的問題是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，人力都沒有問題。"],["羅委員美玲：人力這部分都沒有問題，所以……"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員剛剛指導的這張表，我們回去……"],["羅委員美玲：因為我有看到像板橋、臺北他們都有到70%，甚至以上，像八德榮家有將近80%，所以我現在看到的這幾家都是低於60%，比例上跟其他的榮家比是有一些落差的。如果像70%、80%的榮家實際辦理業務人數，他們這樣子的配置是怎麼樣的一個配置呢？他們是over了嗎？如果說我們這樣子是屬於比較充足的人力的話，那其他高達80%的人力配置是怎麼樣的人力配置呢？可以說明一下這當中的落差嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，報告委員，我請就養處處長跟您做一個詳細的說明。"],["周處長興國：委員好，我是就養養護處處長周興國。這個資料是去年我們評鑑的資料，我們委請外面的評鑑委員，依照老福機構的評鑑標準來評鑑，從去年開始評鑑委員認為事務人力是有缺，要儘快來補實，但是在各榮家運作上面整體來看，運作都是沒有問題的，他只是提醒我們補實人力，這段時間有關事務人力，我們儘快來補實相關的人力，以應榮家運作的需求。"],["羅委員美玲：所以目前為止，這些60%以下的榮家，剛剛主委的意思是說實際上沒有人力不足的問題嘛！如果這樣子講的話，剛剛處長講的話，跟主委所講的，可能會有一點點的出入。"],["周處長興國：我們的照服人力是沒有問題，因為榮家以照護為主。"],["羅委員美玲：你們的照服人力是採外包的是不是？用委外的方式嗎？"],["周處長興國：對，我們是勞務委外。"],["羅委員美玲：勞務委外，那有含在這裡面的人數嗎？"],["周處長興國：沒有含。"],["羅委員美玲：不含在裡面是不是？所以這部分，照顧的人數是委外的部分，不含在內？"],["周處長興國：對，委外，還有我們本身的護理師、護理人員，在照護工作執行是沒有問題的，這是事務工作執行的方面。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我跟委員報告的是護理師加上社工照顧的人力，而委員這個表是整個就業務、就事務面，所以這一塊我們還要再繼續去補實。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好，瞭解。再來還有一點，提到占床率的部分，雖然說我們後來還是有開放一些床位讓一般的民眾來使用，可是在去年跟前年同期，到7月份為止，我們看到整體的床位，我記得在上個會期有跟退輔會討論過占床率的問題，當然我現在看到這個數據，去年跟今年相較，雖然有調整，可是我覺得整個占床率還是低於八成。像審計部跟監察院都有提出一些檢討，希望這個部分就占床率是不是可以有效提升。","我也看了兩份資料，舉個例子，像彰化榮家，榮民入住有分公費跟自費，目前都還是有一些空床，像公費的部分還有61床、自費還有16。可是我們看到，開放給一般民眾的部分其實還有候住人數，有2人在等待，因為是在同一個榮民之家，這個可以做調整嘛？像開放給一般民眾的是53床，目前入住也是53床，表示是滿床的狀態，還有2個人在等。可是我們看到給榮民的，不管是公費或自費，到目前為止是有床位的，這可以在院內做調整嗎？像彰化榮家就有這個狀況。"],["周處長興國：我跟您報告一下，我們每個禮拜都會檢討這個床位。就您講的，如果榮民沒有候住的狀況之下，一般民眾有候住，我們會把床位轉給一般民眾。那你可能說有2個床位，你看那個數據，也許他正在辦手續中，但是床位的調整我們每週都會做。"],["羅委員美玲：所以還是會做調整就對了。"],["周處長興國：對，希望資源能夠共享。"],["羅委員美玲：好。像彰化榮家，就您說的，因為是2個候住人數，也許這個就會調整到其他的床位去。可是我看到八德榮家，像它一般安養有分公費跟自費的部分，目前候住的人數，公費部分有31人、自費部分有21人，一般民眾更是高達180人，看起來床位非常不足。那我們再來看看它的夫妻安養部分，也有分公費跟自費，可是像夫妻安養的部分我們公費有18床、自費有120床，目前夫妻安養部分可申請的床數，公費跟自費加起來其實有69床是空床，這部分他們如何調整，沒有辦法去做調整嗎？我看像一般安養的部分，候住的人數非常高，可是夫妻安養的部分空床率又這麼高，沒有辦法做調整嗎？這是我在數據上看到的問題。"],["周處長興國：報告委員，因為夫妻併同安置是夫妻一起住進來的。"],["羅委員美玲：對，是兩個床位，我有看他們的照片。處長，你看右邊這個，如果開放給一般安養的話，這沒有辦法嗎？"],["周處長興國：他是符合一般安養可以入住，但是他……"],["羅委員美玲：所以你們現在一般安養都是單人房嗎？"],["周處長興國：對……"],["羅委員美玲：全部都是單人房嗎？"],["周處長興國：對，它的空間比較大，如果今天一個人住到夫妻房裡面，他的空間是比較大、坪數比較大，那其他住單人房的，比較之下會想為什麼你可以住夫妻房，那個空間比較大，那我這個單人房，我也要轉到夫妻房。"],["羅委員美玲：所以你們還是要維持住民必須是一人一間的方式嗎？"],["周處長興國：對，那我會把其他榮家有夫妻房的需求，可以轉到八德來，我們可以確認比如他排夫妻房沒有空缺，那我們可以……"],["羅委員美玲：你們會做這種調整嗎？"],["周處長興國：我們有確認說……"],["羅委員美玲：榮家跟榮家之間做比對，做個調整。"],["嚴主任委員德發：可以，我們週邊的榮家就會做調整。"],["羅委員美玲：因為我看到的數據是這樣。同一個像八德榮家，沒床的就沒床、空床就空在那裡，我想這個部分是沒有辦法做調整嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，我們再做聯合調度，實際上一般民眾的部分從451床已經增加到1,635床，已經不斷在滾動式調整，會按照委員的指導，我們會請各榮家評估狀況，如果適當做一些調節就調節，地區、區域的也可以做一些調整。"],["羅委員美玲：好，本席是希望就我們的資源，因為我們一開始就說資源共享，也希望這個資源能夠充分被利用。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["羅委員美玲：好。以上，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員，主委請回。接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:08:39","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:30:56+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155265","委員名稱":"萬美玲","duration":519,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:22:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a6b9c55738967f11e4cc4e7309f7945e5c84522585fcddf7fefa55c43c43e31e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.69284375,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.67096875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.480968750000002,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.020968750000002,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.70346875,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.26659375,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.81471875000001,"end":110.56221875000001},{"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去喔那我們有沒有要嚴謹啦我們不要因為去誤判了情勢或者去踩雷了那導致後面在整合上面出現大問題那我們搞不好血本無歸我覺得這個是一個非常這個重要的問題在所以主任您一直在講說除了溝通之外我目前還沒有看到"},{"start":304.611,"end":304.711,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":327.233,"end":344.348,"text":"我知道他們有不同的意見不同意見在角力所以我很擔心啦布拉格的這個海外基地會不會因此雖然現在還在運作中但後來變成無疾而終而會不會由外交部的先進晶片這個研究中心來取代會不會"},{"start":345.369,"end":371.57,"text":"報告萬美玲你講得非常正確我的想法跟你一樣也就是說如果我們以這個行政角度去看這樣的合作因為有選舉所以常常會有不同的意見會存在但是我會把它拉回來是在學術研究的合作學者之間就不會有這樣的問題產生所以接下來的這個重點會比較注重在於我會增加資源做學術研究的合作"},{"start":372.79,"end":394.876,"text":"聽您這樣講,您的意思是說我們這一個海外訓練基地是會有變化的喔?您的意思是這樣?我們希望把人力的訓練拉到台灣來就拉回來了,不在那裡培育不在那裡,但是同樣的這個合作的基地還是在那個捷克理工大學你捷克理工大學還在那裡,然後我們的基地也還在那裡那我們所有培育計畫拿回來台灣做"},{"start":396.266,"end":424.844,"text":"人才培育那我為什麼要浪費這麼多錢在那個地方呀不是 那個地方我會轉為做學術研究的合作學術研究的合作培養的人才我這樣聽你講看起來應該是我們本來宣布9月要正式營運您說有可能是這個10月的IC設計海外訓練基地現在是申辯了對嗎沒有申辯就是說那個地方接牌要等到他們參議院選舉完就是"},{"start":425.845,"end":428.887,"text":"主委我想我要提醒您因為我們都很關心他們現在的政局以及跟我們的合作尤其是這個海外訓練基地其實我們已經都準備好了"},{"start":443.097,"end":444.578,"text":"謝謝委員我就是因為這個原因所以我現在很審慎因為學術合作是不會因為政治而中斷的"},{"start":463.414,"end":489.237,"text":"所以我就會注重在這一點然後怎麼跟外交部這個地方做整合我希望我們一邊觀察他的政治局勢的時候我們自己要有計畫好那看起來我們第一個海外基地就有面臨到一些變化那現在我們除了布瓦格之外過去我也聽您說可能還要再設立其他的地方那您今天在報告當中也有提到說我們也有去德國去美國進行科技AI的一些交流研究"},{"start":489.937,"end":513.633,"text":"我們有沒有可能在設置第二座海外科技基地然後可能會在什麼地方目前沒有打算我們的重點就是在這幾個國家我們都會加強學術研究的合作這個是台積電需要的也是我們國家發展非常重要的一個基礎花了錢花了預算花了心意我想後續主委一定要密切的掌握選定的評估好不好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝萬美玲主委謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:22:17 - 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﹗"},{"start":404.11,"end":404.25,"text":"下一頁齁"},{"start":430.578,"end":458.576,"text":"在這邊還是要提出我們當時在公聽會的一個訴求第一個由衛福部來委託或補助規劃成立北中南東區的專業輔導團隊給予我們的安置機構更多的專業能力跟服務可是你們的報告裡面說只有我的公辦的兒童之家有這樣子其他的私立不需要嗎第二個是衛福部要研擬安置特殊需求的兒少照顧分類標準跟評估機制來評估結果"},{"start":460.337,"end":462.138,"text":"第三個應該研擬將特殊需求安置兒少從長照機構"},{"start":488.893,"end":497.918,"text":"轉嫌到兒少機構的實施計畫這上次提出來二月提出來講到現在已經一年多了希望孩子能夠到"},{"start":498.871,"end":525.709,"text":"比較適宜他的一個機構主席不好意思再讓我一點時間那請問部長這些結論跟建議社家屬執行的進度是怎樣現在時間上來不及請你們就是再給我報告來往下所以在這邊我大概有三個短中長期的計畫短期希望還是研擬安置特殊需求的孩子分級分類的一個標準跟評估我們當然沒有辦法立即馬上去機構化可是應該要分級分類這個要去考慮"},{"start":526.049,"end":551.937,"text":"﹗"},{"start":551.937,"end":575.998,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":576.67,"end":577.391,"text":"我10年來一向堅持這樣的方向"},{"start":592.954,"end":612.586,"text":"在努力所以好非常感謝部長能夠保持初心堅持對的事情也就是你同意要有中央的兒童專責單位我們一直在努力因為當時主張的是這樣今年是農年可是上半年只生了6萬3876人農年可能會比虎年更少去年度你還都"},{"start":613.046,"end":636.988,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":638.069,"end":663.456,"text":"能夠以兒童為中心的社會以日本的經驗來成立兒童兒少的專責機構下一頁所以對少子化我們可不可以比照日本的經驗一個是成立中央級的專責單位來整合不是讓散播到各部會裡邊我們講的好聽叫做各失其職講難聽叫各自為政要有統合才有辦法解決因為要預算編列"},{"start":664.343,"end":664.503,"text":"謝謝另外一位"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:14:04 - 09:25:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155264","gazette":{"lineno":127,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時14分）主席，麻煩我們的部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。今天要跟你討論少子女化跟特殊需求兒少安置到底要怎麼樣解決。首先針對特殊需求安置的孩子，在我上任前就有參與111年兒權公約國家報告國際委員來臺的審查會議，我記得當時就有提到，因為在106年他們來審查的時候就希望安置能夠去機構化，不要再安置在機構，可是看起來很難達到，所以他們問到底臺灣的短中長期怎麼走？也就是，既然2016年提出來這樣做，但你做不到，那你的短中長期怎麼做？甚至私立的安置機構要改善，還要有有效把關措施。可是為什麼國際委員審查有這些結論？我自己上任之前擔任兒童權益促進聯盟理事長，在2023（去）年2月跟吳玉琴委員開辦特殊需求兒少家外安置的公聽會，所以才會有監察院查這個案子。當時就有提到有144位特殊需求兒少被安置在成人機構裡，可是還是很遺憾的是，這些沒人照顧的孩子們在一個成人護理之家或醫院，沒有人去照顧這些孩子的課業，也沒有同儕互動，明顯忽視兒少的教育跟教養、休閒娛樂，以及成長的權利，而且常有需求資源沒辦法滿足，有一些這樣的困難。可是看到監察院的報告，再看到你們的報告的時候，我真的覺得滿難以理解的，為什麼這樣講？因為就是當初求助我們的個案所講的，跟你們現在報告講的都不太一樣。第一個，安置的兒少，你們講是重症，其實有的是保護性的個案，根本不是重症的孩子，他卻被安置在護理之家，甚至也因為口耳相傳，本來只有一個，結果變成20個孩子被安置在護理之家，如果不是重症的話就沒有這個需求；甚至有的剛開始是重症，但後來把呼吸器拿掉了，各方面都顯現OK的時候，還是繼續，因為單親媽媽沒辦法照顧；這也是監察院報告裡面有的，當初就是我們提供的相關資料，結果你們的報告完全不顯現這個。甚至有情緒障礙的孩子，他有性的問題，以及到國中期還有被排擠的問題，這個是護理之家、醫院可以解決的嗎？看起來是沒辦法！所以你的安置兒少非你自己報告寫的如此，這是我提出來的第一個。","第二個是人力配比。今天安置兒少跟安置成人的護理之家跟醫院基本上是不太一樣的，問題是你把兒少安置在護理之家、安置在醫院裡面，這除了人力以外，還有專業能力的問題，還有外籍的，我不知道部長看不看監察院的報告，裡面敘明還有外籍的人，他要怎麼跟兒少溝通？兒少從他身上去學語言，怎麼去學？甚至他的照顧知能都是不足夠的，有的護理人員還自己去學幼兒的照顧知能，這是不是有點違背、顛倒的狀況？根本就是沒有辦法跟學校溝通，孩子的課業很多，問題是要跟學校溝通，但這些護理人員怎麼去跟學校溝通？他們不是社工，他們上下班的時間也跟兒少的需求不太一樣，在過去本來安置機構就會有這個問題。即便你今天的報告提出來說要有社工人力進駐，沒有錯！社工人力進駐，但是社工6點下班，孩子4點下課了，他們交會的時間到底有多長？根本就還是沒有辦法符合兒少的需求。可是一般的安置機構會考慮到這樣的情形，所以會提供生輔人員，甚至有些社工會因為孩子的特殊需求會晚一點下班。所以當初我們在公聽會要求的就是專業人力跟照顧、跟教養方式、跟人數比這些都要去考量。但是我看到你的報告，我覺得真的只能講是敷衍了事，因為跟我們實際碰到的經驗是完全不一樣的。","在106年的時候，我剛剛提過，兒權公約就已經提出要去機構化，更何況特殊需求的孩子！本來之前我們開公聽會的時候，有144個要你們改善，現在竟然已經有176個安置，我不知道怎麼反而是成長的，這個問題111年國際委員也有提出來，但從111年6月的144人到112年年底成長到176人，所以想問部長原因是什麼？衛福部對於特殊需求的兒少安置政策跟計畫有要修正跟調整嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的垂詢，針對委員提出很多實務上發現的問題，然後提出指導，我個人深感敬佩，因為這是您花了很多的專業跟時間來了解，非常謝謝。","針對特殊需求兒童的安置，其實有兩個原則，第一個是我們儘量讓他回家庭，就是剛剛委員所提到的，這個是衛福部一直在做的政策，如果能夠回原生家庭最好，不然就是安養家庭，如果他調養得好的話……"],["林委員月琴：所以這也是跟國際接軌，就是要回到家庭裡面去。"],["邱部長泰源：對。第二個，如果真的不能出來的話，我們一定會給他教育，譬如巡迴輔導教師的資源，當然剛剛委員提到在時間上的配合或怎麼樣，我們都可以把細節調整。"],["林委員月琴：先從護理之家移出來，可以嗎？讓孩子還是到適合兒少的地方，即便是特殊需求，還是適合到有符合專業能力的人來照顧。"],["邱部長泰源：對，所以我們未來也會儘量來……尤其在113年我們也增加補助長照機構設置兒少專門的照顧專區，希望給他們更好的照顧，這個也在我們的……"],["林委員月琴：在這邊我還是要提出我們當時在公聽會的一個訴求。第一個，由衛福部來委託或補助規劃成立北、中、南、東區的專業輔導團隊，給予我們的安置機構更多的專業能力跟服務，可是你們的報告裡面說，只有我的公辦兒童之家有這樣子的服務，其他私立的不需要嗎？第二個是衛福部要研擬安置特殊需求的兒少照顧分類標準跟評估機制，依評估結果來提供增額安置的費用，為什麼一般的安置機構不太敢收特殊需求的兒少？有些機構大概就是會挑個案，因為你的費用根本就不到位，才2萬3,000元，人家怎麼做？人家安置一個孩子，基本上在等你的孩子來，他等床位，平常的費用一個孩子大概要8萬塊，等到孩子進來的時候，你只給2萬3,000元。第三個，應該研擬將特殊需求安置的兒少，從長照機構轉銜到兒少機構的實施計畫，這個上次有提出來，從2月提出來講到現在已經一年多了，希望孩子能夠到比較適宜的機構。主席，不好意思，再給我一點時間。請問部長，這些結論跟建議社家署執行的進度是怎樣？現在時間來不及，請你們再給我報告。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["林委員月琴：所以在這邊我大概有三個短、中、長期的計畫，短期還是希望研擬安置特殊需求的孩子分級分類的標準跟評估，我們當然沒有辦法立即、馬上去機構化，可是應該要分級分類，這個要去考慮，更何況應該要針對特殊需求的孩子，提供這樣子的兒少機構照顧。中期還是要有專業人員進入到兒少安置機構裡面，提供兒少安置機構的工作人員增能，不是護理人員自己去上課，事實上是要設計符合特殊需求兒少的個別化服務。長期的話，我們還是希望政府能夠自辦特殊需求兒少安置的機構或家園，讓特殊需求的孩子有穩定的安置場所，而且不受限於資源、就學跟照顧的困境。","光特殊需求這個部分要其他部會合作都很難，很多預算或者是管理都分散在各部會。講到少子化的部分，我想問一下，2024的邱部長，你對於這個有印象嗎？你是否支持當時2018年邱委員的承諾？"],["邱部長泰源：我10年來一向堅持朝這樣的方向在努力。"],["林委員月琴：好，非常感謝部長能夠保持初心，堅持對的事情，也就是你同意要有中央的兒童專責單位，因為當時主張的是這樣。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一直在努力，一直在溝通。"],["林委員月琴：今年是龍年，可是上半年只生了6萬3,876人，龍年可能會比虎年更少，去年兔年還都生到13萬5,000，今年不知道會不會變成連13萬都不到。日本去年在4月12號就成立了兒童及家庭廳，所以我們還是希望呼應當初2018年你跟民間團體提出的要求，希望有專責機構，你現在擔任部長了，是不是可以承諾能夠建立以兒童為中心的社會，以日本的經驗來成立兒少的專責機構？對於少子化的問題，我們可不可以比照日本的經驗？一個是成立中央級的專責單位來整合，不是分散到各部會裡面，我們講得好聽叫做各司其職，講得難聽叫各自為政，要統合才有辦法解決，因為要透過預算編列來解決少子化問題，還有希望可以朝向一個方向，因為現在很多委員都提了青年基本法，所以我也希望能夠研擬訂定兒童基本法，建立以兒童為中心的社會，這個就是日本的方式，才會有兒童政策的綱領。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝，我們全力以赴。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:09:57","end_time":"2024-10-09T09:22:04+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155263","委員名稱":"林倩綺","duration":597,"start_time":"2024-10-09T09:12:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600aadd1455e6cb819c84cc4e7309f7945e5c84522585fcddf7f89e2bfcd57ebc68f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.277843750000002,"end":20.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.90534375,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.39034375,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.32659375,"end":27.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.44846875,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.02159375,"end":33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內補助基礎研究我其實後面還有一個數據但是我現在也沒時間先秀給你我們相較於而且是會內自己的資料我們相較於新加坡美國這一些國家其實相對是少的"},{"start":349.173,"end":372.699,"text":"這就跟您的夢有關了我們的確逐步在提升希望能夠培養更多將來可以對社會產生重大貢獻的研究所以剛才一個議題第一個是公私立大學的失衡而且會內應該與時俱進你們說的這個研究型教學型還有個型這20年來整個大學的教育產生了很大的變化我同意林委員所以為了補足那一點"},{"start":378.14,"end":405.972,"text":"我們現在除了在一些研究型的專案之外我們現在也對於能夠推動社會貢獻的一些專案也增加了不要忘記這個不計利益的一個研究的投入我知道就是在屬於剛剛提到的比較屬於私立大學科技特別是科技領域的我們希望他們貼近社會的這種研究我們會增加明年會增加謝謝林委員的這個提醒所以我期待會裡面能夠來好好探討"},{"start":406.832,"end":433.712,"text":"解決公私立大學長期研究不公平的這樣一個現象接下來我還是談一下還是很感謝主委在0520就職之後我們來的拜會讓我反映了原住民研究相關的這個問題所以個別型的問題就在當場主委就答應了非常感謝您接受本席的建議所以在個別型的這個研究上今年"},{"start":434.272,"end":456.193,"text":"已經確定有了那當然很多利益良好的政策跟方向常常在執行上可能就會產生了一些誤差跟偏誤那主委因為你們各個階層下去可能在執行上其實本來您覺得阿薩里而且您覺得這個部分是重要的但是執行上後來又給原住民的某一些限制所以上一回"},{"start":456.913,"end":457.693,"text":"主委,我想您可以去了解一下這個內容狀況"},{"start":477.28,"end":487.724,"text":"我相信您當場：當時我的建議您就promise應該是我們彼此在學界認為這件事情很簡單：而且應該是可以做的讓我們原住民："},{"start":494.493,"end":518.706,"text":"當然也聯繫到因為現在原住民的研究都在人文社會類那其實在中研院其實有研究過原住民的生命長度基本上是比一般平均在台灣社會是來的低的所以有沒有可能在原住民的研究裡面你們可以在各個不同領域去做個思考"},{"start":519.606,"end":538.142,"text":"其他領域當然像生命科學、自然科學等等。像什麼呢?來我給您看一個大佬的研究。這個大佬裡面其實有一個區塊應該是海馬回。海馬回就有一個族群的記憶。某種程度或許在其他的領域可以鼓勵這樣子的一個研究。"},{"start":538.843,"end":538.863,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":561.124,"end":561.244,"text":"謝謝林委員"},{"start":586.581,"end":587.202,"text":"主委請回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:12:07 - 09:22:04","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155263","gazette":{"lineno":38,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時12分）主席、各位立院同仁、國科會相關單位的夥伴們，大家早安、大家好！我就先請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：主委好。我很高興今天聽到國科會提出近期的業務報告，我延續幾個長期有被提醒跟我關心的一些議題。第一個部分，我先提醒一下主委，國科會設立的初衷跟目的就是不計產出的現實利益而專注於學術研究，我相信對於這點我們應該都很有共識。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["林委員倩綺：你也希望在比較少的一些干擾下能夠讓學術研究獨立，這樣對我們整體的科學發展和學術的量能應該是比較正面的。所以我在這邊首先提出一個長期一直有被反映的問題，我不知道會內怎麼樣看待這個問題，所以今天我們就來討論一下，國科會對於學術研究的投入資源在學校部分有一些分配不太均勻的現象，也就是說，公私立學校資源分配的一個重點就是分配不均，第二個是影響了學術研究的平衡發展。","我今天也幫會內做了一下功課，我們就去年的一些數據來探討。螢幕上這個圖表只是去年的數據，國科會當年核定學術研究的件數統計，我們拿公私立大學來講，公立大學件數上有7,256件，私立大學則是2,701件，光是這個數據裡面的比例就很值得思考，公立大學的受補助案件是私立大學的2.69倍。但是以公立大學跟私立大學的數據，公立大學你們補助差不多四十幾所，私立大學則有將近八十所，所以這個比例的部分，我們再加權來看，似乎有很大的失衡。這個區塊是不是請主委來注意一下，看看這個問題要如何解決？這個部分其實已經長久在學界裡面被討論，我不知道會內怎麼看這件事。","以下幾個數據我們很快的來看過，這個是你們在去年全部類型的核定件數，公立大學是5,925件，私立大學只有前者的三分之一而已；接下來在政策專案上，公立大學有179件，私立大學只有11件，這也難怪連帶到的是，教育部竟然現在讓私立大學在退場，你們給的資源也少，然後又訂定了一個讓大家無所從的教育政策。當然你們不是主要的業務單位，但是這連帶的間接也導致了這樣子的問題，所以你看179件跟11件，然後公立大學的數量大約是私立大學的二分之一，以這樣子的比例來看，我們都不用細算應該就可以看到失衡的狀況。但比較特殊的是，在大學生的研究計畫方面，公立大學跟私立大學的失衡可能還沒有那麼高，是二千多件比一千多件，所以會內是怎麼樣思考這樣一個補助的決策或者是你們在執行上到底是碰到了什麼問題？這個可能待會要請主委很快地給我回應。另外，吳大猷獎也是同樣的問題，也就是公私立大學的失衡比例，導致大家認為研究補助不公，所以主委，這件事情是不是先做個簡單的回應？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我非常佩服林委員的這個觀點，的確，在整體臺灣的教育上面，我們的資源投入是公立大學比私立大學還要多，長期造成這個原因是因為我們對私立大學，還有很多科技大學，從職校到專科到技術學院到科技大學這一連串改變的過程，原來是屬於教育型大學的責任，這些教師長遠來講，他們是投入在培育直接進入職場的這些學生。國科會的任務本來是要補助做科研的這種工作計畫，現在的確是會造成比較屬於研究型的大學拿到計畫的可能性會比較高。因為就剛剛委員所提的，我們補助基礎研究的預算一直是逐年在提升，逐年提升……"],["林委員倩綺：主委，不好意思，這邊我可能就要打斷了，會內補助基礎研究的部分，我其實後面還有一個數據，但是我現在也沒時間先秀給你看，我們相較於……"],["吳主任委員誠文：逐年提升，但是……"],["林委員倩綺：而且是會內自己的資料，我們相較於新加坡、美國這些國家，其實相對是少的，這就跟您的夢有關了，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們的確逐步在提升，希望能夠培養更多將來可以對社會產生重大貢獻的研究。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，所以剛才一個議題，第一個是公私立大學的失衡……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我知道。"],["林委員倩綺：而且會內應該要與時俱進，你們說的這個研究型、教學型，還有各型，這二十年來整個大學的教育產生了很大的變化，會裡的速度可能要很快的趕上，我提一個建議啦……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意，所以為了補足那一點，我們現在除了在一些研究型的專案之外，我們對於能夠推動社會貢獻的一些專案也增加了，我在下年度的預算……"],["林委員倩綺：不要忘記不計利益的研究的投入……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我知道，就是剛剛提到的，比較屬於私立大學，特別是科技領域的，我們希望他們貼近社會的這種研究明年會增加，謝謝林委員的提醒。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝，所以我期待會裡面能夠好好探討跟解決公私立大學長期研究不公平這樣的現象，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好的，我們會努力。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來，我還是談一下，還是很感謝主委在520就職之後過來拜會，我反映了原住民研究相關的問題，個別型的問題當場主委就答應了，……"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們已經增加了。"],["林委員倩綺：非常感謝您接受本席的建議，所以在個別型的研究上，今年已經確定有了……"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經增加了。"],["林委員倩綺：對。當然，很多立意良好的政策跟方向，常常在執行上可能就會產生了一些誤差跟偏誤。你們各個階層下去，本來您很「阿莎力」，而且您覺得這個部分是重要的，但是執行上後來又給原住民某一些限制，所以上一回那位處長在這邊跟您說，原住民的個別型限制會成為未來整合型限制的先期研究，其實某種程度又框住了我們的方向。我建議是不是可以很阿莎力的個別就個別，不要再給我們用一些框架限制住。主委，我想您可以去了解一下相關的內容狀況，好不好？我相信當時我的建議您就promise……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：在學界我們都認為這件事情很簡單，而且應該是可以做的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不必要的限制我們會把它拿掉。"],["林委員倩綺：是的、是的，讓原住民有自由發展的空間。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：當然也聯繫到因為現在原住民的研究都在人文社會類，其實中研院有研究過原住民的生命長度，基本上是比一般臺灣社會的平均來得低，所以有沒有可能在原住民的研究裡面，你們可以在各個不同領域去思考？其他領域像是生命科學、自然科學等等，像什麼？我給您看大腦的研究，大腦裡面有一個區塊是海馬迴，海馬迴就有族群的記憶，某種程度或許在其他的領域可以鼓勵這樣子的研究，很確切的，像是這樣子的研究。感謝您剛才在個別型研究給的空間，但是在其他研究上，都希望我們有角色，所以最後我給您具體的原住民研究相關建議：第一個，原住民研究參與的主體性，我們知道常常在研究的角色跟參與度上，原住民某種程度經常被動，還有在整合型計畫的決策機制跟審核流程，也請主委多加注意，最重要的是對原住民有發展的、在科研部分也有角色的研究，我覺得會裡可以思考來增重它的比例，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員倩綺：以上跟主委探討，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，主委請回。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:03:28","end_time":"2024-10-09T15:16:59+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155376","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","duration":208,"start_time":"2024-10-09T15:13:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a73baa8796791d9feb46d19fd1690e0d4a187561f7b23657c892ad2dd8d1590f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.51471875,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.82971875,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.62284375,"end":26.879093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.13221875,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.36284375,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.24034375,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":52.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.204093750000006,"end":62.367218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.53596875,"end":65.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.64096875,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.88534375,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.51346875,"end":84.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.14846875,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SP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15:16:59","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155376","gazette":{"lineno":1265,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（15時13分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好，今天只有一題，就是針對嘉義山區土地使用的編定，特別是針對林班地的問題。如果我們看一下那個圖片，大概可以知道這是我們嘉義石棹地區的土地使用編定的現況，大部分都是在國保一的範圍。如果你仔細看圖面的話，會看到存在丙種建築跟暫准貸地相鄰的情況。我們有這個圖片嗎？沒有這個圖片？沒關係。","不管如何，都是國保一的範圍，一樣都是拿來做建築的使用。但是暫准貸地上面的建築使用還是要受到林業用地管制，林班地承租人的居住權利根本沒有辦法獲得有效的保障。對於山區的居民來說，不管地籍上是林地或者是農地，房子在那邊，但是管理的強度是完全不同。山區國有林班地未解編之前是受林業法令的限制，所以居民大多用暫准貸地的方式來進行使用，但是這些地區已經有既成聚落，也有這個產業四、五十年，但是政府還是要用林班地的管理法令進行管制，我們是覺得這是很不合理的。","所以為了解決這項問題，嘉義縣政府在擬定縣級的國土計畫的時候，打算應用土地使用管制來管理暫准貸地，但是內政部國有計畫審議是把它擱置的。現在嘉義縣政府有另外一個方案，這個部分想要請教部長。縣政府是認為已經沒有林業發展需求的林班地應該可以透過鄉村地區整體規劃，直接解除林班地的管制。例如如果鄉村地區劃設為農業發展地區第四類的居住使用，就應該視同解除林班地之管制。我想請問農業部對此有什麼樣的看法？是不是願意支持縣政府這樣的做法？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上在那個部分大概都已經形成聚落了。其實我們農業部本身的立場，限於現在地目的關係，我們的態度是，如果地方政府能夠經過通案檢討以後，把它變成鄉村區，然後把它劃成非公用的部分，那後續它就可以移給國產署，以後就可以開始做變更的部分，我覺得這是現在最快，而且可以解決的一個途徑。","國土計畫實施以後，如果把那個區域劃成城鄉發展區，或者應該是農四的部分，相對地也可以做一部分的解決。但是現在其實就可以解決，現在如果地方政府把它劃成鄉村區的話，把它變成非公用，那非公用被移撥到國產署去的時候，就可以開始處理這個聚落的問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以簡單來說，就是可以透過鄉村地區的整體規劃解決？"],["陳部長駿季：對，鄉規的部分可以去處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：鄉規可以去解決？"],["陳部長駿季：可以去處理，但是要在地方政府劃出來以後。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我的問題到此結束。"],["主席：非常謝謝陳冠廷委員非常有效率的質詢。部長請回座。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵不在。","郭國文、郭國文、郭國文不在。","吳沛憶、吳沛憶、吳沛憶不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","林倩綺、林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在。","登記發言委員，除不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，我們詢答結束。","委員劉建國所提書面質詢，我們列入紀錄，刊登公報。有關書面質詢以及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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也就是說他們可以用自己的方式來經營他們的土地所以讓我們有機會今天看到這樣的樣貌那怎麼說因為我們自己現在也正在經歷這樣的一個過程"},{"start":97.881,"end":120.339,"text":"我們過去一百多年前幾十年前原本原住民長期以來所保留的一個傳統能耕方式呢到了國民政府來之後因為那時候的土地還沒有什麼法規您可以看得到當時的蔣總統在我們的中部的地區種起了柑橘高麗菜或者是像是這些茶葉"},{"start":121.66,"end":122.481,"text":"姜麗華Saidhai 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多好呢 我看這一條 你看 上面可以攝緩沖帶 可以種灌熟作物 然後可以用混農林的方式 等等這是找原住民的學者專家 在地的人 去討論出來的但是我知道的是 擠進擠退阿 跟國土署 我希望到時候大家各部會 一同的來支持齁 那部長可以嗎"},{"start":356.784,"end":371.896,"text":"我想我一定會從我的角度去 從農業的角度去支持這樣子能夠在適度的這個非極端的那個所謂的進縣區進墾區的部分以外我們可以有一部分可以放寬的部分 我想我們會去盤點"},{"start":372.677,"end":394.595,"text":"那如果有問題我可能也會召開協調會確保這一些規範那希望部長來支持那我最後就是說我們原住民說山林是家土地是血土地非常重要雖然大家現在吵得沸沸揚揚的進發補償對於限制給予補償我們很感謝但是荒廢土地對我們來講更是對祖先的不敬"},{"start":395.456,"end":416.366,"text":"所以我希望我們的法律能夠還給原住民有機會好好的運用我們的傳統知識來做我們的耕地我覺得這個才是對土地最尊重的一種方式好不好部長好我想我們後續會鼓勵原民來加入我們的所謂的獎勵造林的方式6年60萬他其實比競爬補償"},{"start":418.007,"end":418.327,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:06:17 - 15:13:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155375","gazette":{"lineno":1243,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（15時6分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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請這個工人排除一下電腦那邊檢查一下是接觸不良還是"},{"start":121.4,"end":140.246,"text":"可能電腦需要休息一下那工作人員再看一下"},{"start":173.78,"end":194.89,"text":"這一個畫面是流浪犬這是上一個委員質詢的嗎這是我的這是我的對部長那邊看得到嗎還是我這個先借你好了可以嗎那個還是"},{"start":200.128,"end":200.448,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":226.608,"end":226.808,"text":"主席"},{"start":254.655,"end":257.1,"text":"陳部長你看這邊先看這邊螢幕好了齁這邊有幾個好了嗎好我們訓導訓導繼續"},{"start":264.465,"end":280.136,"text":"就是我們講生態多樣性的一個重要性但是我們可以看到被犬貓攻擊的一個數造成野生動物死亡的數字也是持續的在增加那同時我也發現就是在審計部的一個112年總決算報告裡面有提到說109年到112年其實4年花費了3.5億來辦理這個遊蕩犬管理精進措施計畫但看到這個數字"},{"start":288.382,"end":303.849,"text":"我們數字其實一直在增加完全沒有減少所以我想要知道為什麼我們花了那麼多錢要保護野生動物可是我們遊蕩權卻沒有減少這原因是什麼我跟委員說明齁現在我們得到的資訊大概就成立你這邊講的齁大概現在目前的流量大概16萬隻左右"},{"start":304.809,"end":330.078,"text":"對他看起來是有在增加可是我們如果從另外一個角度講如果說我們沒有一個作為的話以流浪犬他自然的繁殖的那個繁殖率的話對所以我想知道我們一定有採什麼作為嗎不然你花3.5億花買所以才會有一些就是說所以我們現在齁我們現在針對流浪犬的部分齁遊蕩犬的部分齁我們大概是用熱區的概念以每一個鄉鎮為一個熱區然後我們投入了一些經費"},{"start":331.198,"end":331.598,"text":"這個熱區的計畫是從什麼時候開始的?應該是110年開始"},{"start":347.864,"end":347.944,"text":"主席"},{"start":367.897,"end":394.48,"text":"有4成的犬隻是放養放養的喔4組把它餵完之後把它放養在街上甚至我們在新聞報導或是網路上面我們可以看到這150次的分享其實我們對於這樣子的行為其實就是餵食嘛大家可以看見它其實就是在一個類似鄉村農村的地方那甚至在我們左邊這張圖它是在生態熱區也是食物的熱區可是它也設置了一個流浪犬貓的餵食據點"},{"start":396.061,"end":417.299,"text":"那這個部分的話,你剛剛有講到餵食,所以我們現在會採取相關的行動嗎?我們會有更積極的行動來禁止餵食嗎?我剛才說的就是說,我們會以鄉鎮為單位的這些熱區開始去執行,然後針對熱區的部分,我們會去限制它的一個餵食,然後加強一個取締。禁止餵食還是限制餵食?這限制餵食到底是什麼意思啊?"},{"start":417.884,"end":434.529,"text":"我們基本上我們到目前為止沒有一個法院說是強制性的禁止餵食啊那是我們要來修法嗎我們在修法的過程中因為餵食這個東西可能要再經過更多的社會溝通因為有一些動保團體本身他覺得說"},{"start":435.789,"end":451.569,"text":"但是我想回到生態多樣性這個最主要的目標我覺得我們對於生態樂區要有一些相關的更積極的作為我們是不是可以從生態樂區開始來禁止相關的餵食或取締呢?"},{"start":452.17,"end":453.15,"text":"對,我們會來調查,我們大概兩年調查一次"},{"start":480.36,"end":503.305,"text":"這個抱歉我再做一句話而已齁我剛也等了蠻久等機器就是說我想就是在11月10號因為我覺得對於每一個寵物其實當然都非常的重要他都應該適得其所有他的家那11月10號其實有一個相關的為野生動物而走的一個活動也有相關的展覽那到時候是不是方便邀請部長跟我一起來參與呢我想如果說時間區一個人的話我也願意來參與這樣的一個活動"},{"start":505.686,"end":507.528,"text":"好那我們會再把邀請送到辦公室謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:52:57 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15:01:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155373","gazette":{"lineno":1153,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（14時53分）謝謝主席！我們有請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝部長。我知道這幾年其實農業部是有依據生物多樣性大會通過的2030年的23項目標去做一些相關的策略和行動，我也看到永續發展委員會在設置要點的第三項其實就有揭櫫生態多樣性的一些保育還有健康風險等等，其實大家講的一個重點就是要follow昆明─蒙特婁全球生物多樣性的框架，其中有講到一個很重要的減少對生物多樣性的威脅，就是要執行受脅物種的管理行動以及外來種的管理，我想要瞭解的就是依照我們現在的數據，我們其實有發現我們在講要保護生態多樣性、要保護我們的野生動物，可是根據林業署的資料……我的投影好像出問題……"],["陳部長駿季：對不起，我這邊也看不到。"],["張委員雅琳：現在可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我這邊看不到。"],["張委員雅琳：那我們時間現在可以暫停一下嗎？"],["主席：是不是機器的問題？請工作人員排除一下，電腦也檢查一下。","現在詢答繼續。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我們講到生態多樣性的重要性，但是我們可以看到被犬貓攻擊造成野生動物死亡的數字也是持續的在增加，同時我也發現審計部112年總決算報告裡面有提到109年到112年這4年花費了3.5億元來辦理遊蕩犬管理精進措施計畫，但請各位看看這個數字，我們的數字其實一直在增加，完全沒有減少。所以我想要知道我們花了那麼多錢要保護野生動物，可是我們的遊蕩犬卻沒有減少的原因是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們得到的資訊就誠如您講的，目前的遊蕩犬大概16萬隻左右。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["陳部長駿季：它看起來是有在增加，可是我們如果從另外一個角度講，如果說我們沒有一個作為的話，以流浪犬牠自然繁殖的繁殖率的話……"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以我想知道你們一定有採什麼作為嘛！不然你花了3.5億元，花到哪裡去了？"],["陳部長駿季：現在針對遊蕩犬的部分，我們大概是用熱區的概念，以每一個鄉鎮為一個熱區，然後我們投入了一些經費，去盤查熱區裡面流浪犬的部分。能夠捕獲的話，基本上我們捕獲以後會給牠絕育，做後續的動作。"],["張委員雅琳：這個熱區的計畫是從什麼時候開始的？"],["陳部長駿季：110年開始。流浪犬會越來越多，其實非常重要的就是飼主的責任，所以我們在所謂的動物保護法裡面會去強化飼主的責任，我們希望不要去餵食。"],["張委員雅琳：不要去餵食嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員雅琳：我想這點非常重要，就是隨意餵食，因為根據很多的數據，發現有4成的犬隻是放養的哦！飼主把牠餵完之後，把牠放養在街上。甚至我們在新聞報導或是網路上面，我們可以看到這個有150次的分享，其實這樣子的行為就是餵食嘛！大家可以看見它其實就是在一個類似鄉村、農村的地方……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：甚至在我們左邊這張圖，它是在生態熱區，也是石虎的熱區，可是它也設置了一個流浪犬貓的餵食據點。這個部分的話，你剛剛有講到餵食，所以你們現在會採取相關的行動嗎？你們會有更積極的行動來禁止餵食嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說的就是我們會以鄉鎮為單位的熱區開始去執行，然後針對熱區的部分我們會去限制餵食，並加強取締。"],["張委員雅琳：禁止餵食，還是限制餵食？這限制餵食到底是什麼意思？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，我們到目前為止沒有一個法源說是強制性的禁止餵食……"],["張委員雅琳：所以那是我們要來修法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在修法的過程中，餵食這個東西可能要再經過更多的社會溝通，因為有一些動保團體覺得流浪犬沒有人照顧，可能還是要照顧。"],["張委員雅琳：但是，回到生態多樣性這個最主要的目標，我覺得你們對於生態熱區要有一些相關的、更積極的作為。你們是不是可以從生態熱區開始，來禁止相關的餵食或取締呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會增加它的取締量……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：而且我覺得要從以身作則的角度開始，我們希望能夠跟過去那些餵食的團體做溝通。"],["主席：好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，因為其實今年生態熱區的流浪犬統計計畫是流標的……"],["主席：好，謝謝，時間到。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：現在好像正在投標，但我覺得內容應該要含括到我們一致的數量還有比例，這件事情是非常重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來調查，我們大概兩年調查一次。"],["主席：好。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉！我再說最後一句話，我剛剛也等了滿久，等機器！我覺得當然每一隻寵物都非常重要，都應該適得其所，有牠的家。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員雅琳：11月10號其實有一個為野生動物而走的活動，也有相關的展覽，到時候是不是方便邀請部長跟我一起來參與呢？"],["陳部長駿季：如果時間許可的話，我也願意來參與這樣的活動。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我們會再把邀請送到辦公室，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，也可以邀請經濟委員會，我們一起參加。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","下一位質詢請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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要請教部長一下台灣開放東南亞移工來台灣改善就是來台灣工作為了改善原生家庭現在目前就是有70幾萬移工已經投入台灣的勞動市場但由於工資普遍就是基本薪沒有額外加班收入的話"},{"start":49.662,"end":49.862,"text":"：麥玉珍"},{"start":66.169,"end":66.369,"text":"請教一下部長你知道這個問題嗎?"},{"start":84.642,"end":105.06,"text":"我跟委員說明就是由於我們國內的農業有一部分的缺工必須仰賴外籍移工來協助那相對的目前是合定的一萬兩千人那現在大概實際的已經有一萬一千多人了然後勞動部也因為我們的需求增加也增加了八千人達到兩萬人"},{"start":107.562,"end":127.033,"text":"現在是農業的部分嗎對我只處理農業的部分所以農業的部分我們可以合配的比例大概是2萬人那現在已經有1萬1千人那這1萬1千人一定會符合勞動基準法的相關的一個規定那在實際的過程中變成說他分配到其他的農場的時候那農場主有時候會體恤他"},{"start":130.179,"end":130.199,"text":"農業部長"},{"start":148.382,"end":159.465,"text":"知道說有多少人在做勞動力的這個部分還有多少我們的農民依賴我們這一群就是非法的移工我們的農委會這邊有沒有想說這8萬人他們是不是有這個機會有的方法讓他們就是變成是合法的途徑因為很多農民請他們十幾年了"},{"start":176.869,"end":191.769,"text":"他們沒有做非法其他的工作但是他們就是不合法的在我們的農業裡面的工作這樣子的話有沒有什麼措施來去考量說讓他們是可以合法化"},{"start":192.546,"end":203.372,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,您剛剛講的8萬多人是整體的外籍的移工齁,不一定是,10年的移工,然後跑到農業領域去從事農業的一個工作嘛,這個我們也的確有發現到有這樣的一個現象,但是我們並沒有實際的一個統計數據說有,因為當你去訪視的時候,有正常引進的你可以調得得到,"},{"start":220.282,"end":220.342,"text":"﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":250.902,"end":277.993,"text":"臺灣的農產業的保障但是對我們要來做農業的移工是沒有很大的保障所以我們希望就是雙方面的讓我們兩邊都有幫助我們希望說我們的農委會這邊不管是合法的非法的看要有什麼措施對他們有幫助也對我們的農民有幫助"},{"start":279.755,"end":279.875,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":308.153,"end":308.374,"text":"謝謝麥玉珍"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:47:39 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早上很多委員其實也都關心這一次颱風的一個災損造成很多地方的一個農損的狀況那包括本席的選區北海岸其實這一次這個大雨造成整個這個角白損以及相關的一個農田苗田也都已經有造成狀況那我想你也聽到很多的心聲都希望說能夠讓這個"},{"start":45.115,"end":58.278,"text":"趕快公告我們的這個在農損的一個申請補助的辦法對不對是什麼時候會來做來說明一下我跟委員報告我們大概分兩個階段去處理第一個階段就是說"},{"start":60.315,"end":83.564,"text":"針對我們農業部可以主動公告的部分我們先處理那另外這個部分我想我們今天早上主動公告可以什麼時候出來我跟委員說明我們今天早上已經開了專家會議那針對新北市特別是在金山萬里山芝的部分的盆花的部分盆花的部分基本上我們已經公告為現金在救助的品項那您剛才講的角白筍的部分"},{"start":84.184,"end":110.313,"text":"那因為他的損害的情形會有區域性的部分那就回到就是說區域性我們也會跟縣市政府這邊市政府這邊來協調還要有農損的通報嘛農損通報機制對不對對那我們會加速這個進行好那因為現在我們看到是說有些反應是農損通報機制不管是用所謂的APP這個農民反應上手也不一定那麼的"},{"start":111.778,"end":114.2,"text":"第一個部分就是"},{"start":136.698,"end":155.218,"text":"我們也考慮到相公所因為這次楷米跟這次的山頭鵝本身那個量比較大所以我們在最新的預告的部分我們有預告修天然災害救助辦法可以去做適當的展延而不是說限定在10天之內讓申報的人人流可以疏散可是聽說是一個月嘛是不是"},{"start":155.97,"end":181.738,"text":"沒有,申報是10天,但是我們可以延長,而且是變成工作天。是,所以延長到多少的時間?沒有,本來是10天的日曆天,現在延長10天的工作天,然後必要的時候還可以再延5天,5個工作日。那這樣的話可以稀釋公所這邊的人力,短時間的人力的壓力。那第二個部分就是天然災害的相片是一個免線竿的時候的一個補助的作為。"},{"start":182.678,"end":211.173,"text":"我們後續也會提供一些後台的資訊比如說他有產銷履歷就很明確知道種什麼作物的時候他連照片都不用那第三個部分就是照片的時候如果在山區的時候沒有影像你先照了回家還是可以上傳所以我們現在發現說整個的盲點是在公所本身的負荷量太大所以我們有很多的作為是希望說就是我們希望主管機關能夠看到第一線的工作同仁的辛苦"},{"start":211.533,"end":234.59,"text":"那尤其是像照片拍完之後地方政府還要不要再去做現場會刊?不用不用齁?是好這個這個確定不用部長今天回答因為我們之前還反映有一些地方政府還回復說這個是在接收通報之後還有現場會刊免現刊的品項你只要有照片證明你種這個作物的時候就不用再看了"},{"start":236.371,"end":242.737,"text":"部長我們就一起努力讓這個災損可以趕快來去移工部長那另外我在上個禮拜一的時候有關心這個灌水牛的事件那時候是請我們的次長來回答我說整個13處的這個屠宰場的"},{"start":257.088,"end":281.465,"text":"現在有沒有去做全面的一個釐清我想我們所了解的就是說現在目前載牛的場數有13場那有14個屠宰縣的部分那從104年開始其實因為屠宰大概分為幾個區域一個是四流區那一個是有關於製葷的然後剝皮的還有出貨的我們都有監控器去做監控那麼晚進來你對我們的時間那麼的那麼的盯緊就對了"},{"start":286.709,"end":297.154,"text":"所以部長我只確認一下他這一次的這個灌水牛的屠宰場是不是到最後開罰只有10多萬"},{"start":298.097,"end":300.138,"text":"我們今天會開專家會議去處理這個法則的問題就是兩個法之間本身的競合的部分"},{"start":318.604,"end":318.644,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:36:46 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4%我想在這邊我們先強調一個概念"},{"start":301.032,"end":322.832,"text":"因為調整這個軍工教薪資的待遇這件事情我們不是要去討論他的績效或績效獎金我想跟部長討論的是這些人他們跟公務人員一樣都是為了我們政府的這些政策推廣跟服務在努力"},{"start":324.254,"end":347.211,"text":"軍方校調薪的狀況下加薪調薪的部分卻漏了他們我覺得這個不是很合理啦因為也嚴重的打擊打擊士氣那部長我想說想請教就是說這些單位今年的4%什麼時候可以調整還有明年的3%是不是也可以如期的調整"},{"start":349.052,"end":360.99,"text":"法務委員我想這個數據好像跟我上次我們關心的時候稍微我印象中只有婦女權益促進發展基金會當時是沒有條"},{"start":365.27,"end":389.056,"text":"其他你們都調了嗎?我是認為只要公務人員調,這邊其實很多私立機構應該都要同步。所以這個如果做不到的或什麼是不是有什麼原因我們要去了解。是不是因為經費不足或者是他們的制度要怎麼處理,我們都趕快來處理。"},{"start":389.796,"end":404.886,"text":"對,因為有的還要強調就是說那個績效這件事,因為它有些性質它是不一樣的。像國衛一樣就沒什麼績效,績效它都一直在研究。我的意思是說它很有績效但是沒有錢的績效。但是它是國家衛生智庫,所以它對國家的貢獻是非常大。"},{"start":414.412,"end":429.565,"text":"對,有些單位不是看他們賺多少錢來衡量?他其實很窮,國家衛生研究院很窮每次統三都把他們的一些計畫必須要刪掉一些,他們也痛苦不堪"},{"start":430.766,"end":458.48,"text":"對,所以部長如果有這樣的概念很好那我們也請部長回去就是好,我馬上來研究你還沒有回答我的問題就是那個今年嘛我們現在才10月嘛起碼還有後面還有兩個月啊就是今年其實是有調調這個4%然後明年要調3%你們要不要追上"},{"start":459.963,"end":461.054,"text":"就是趕上一下進度"},{"start":462.322,"end":490.613,"text":"我們馬上來處理啊。如果該補的就補啊。這個錢的事情,絕對火急啊這個是。大家都都有聽到,這是我們詢問過,這個認知最棒的衛福部部長。這個應該要調的就要趕快調啊。是,謝謝。那我們有沒有可能在10月底的時候麻煩大家會診然後可以跟我們辦公室說明一下這個狀況?"},{"start":492.074,"end":510.956,"text":"我們回去跟人事處講一下我們回去跟人事處但是我是覺得一定要想盡辦法要達到目標這樣子沒錯我們大家一起努力啦但我還是要講一下10月底到我們辦公室報告一下狀況你們努力的結果這樣"},{"start":513.579,"end":513.739,"text":"是的。"},{"start":542.849,"end":556.273,"text":"結合了智慧科技的運用當然這個是整體來說是我們現在的趨勢星期一記者會的主題是在這個智慧醫療但是我8月的時候有邀請衛福部各個機關來開會請你們會診"},{"start":559.754,"end":585.551,"text":"目前衛福部所有有關智慧科技運用的政策與計畫那這些這個表呢這些是你們彙整給我的那這個我們看一下其中紅色框起來的兩個項目也是我上屆推動社區健康營造結合科技應用的計畫這是我相當關心也是部落我們偏向非常需要的一個計畫那其中呢"},{"start":585.811,"end":599.599,"text":"﹗"},{"start":599.926,"end":623.243,"text":"而處理急救這樣子那如果把這個智慧醫療然後結合智慧照護政策這個也是我們賴總統的這個推動的健康台灣的政策那健康台灣當中有一個項目呢是智慧醫療結合智慧照護所以部長我們是不是應該再詳細的去給他盤點"},{"start":627.206,"end":655.837,"text":"到底是哪些政策跟計畫呢是以這個智慧科技用在醫療還有這個照護上面的那我們要把它要請你們說把它彙整成一個計畫裡面哪些是常態性的政策哪些是階段性的項目這個部分我們把它做一個完整的整理那我提出這樣的要求是因為我們之前跟你們這個詢問那要求"},{"start":657.017,"end":659.398,"text":"我們那個三大中心是世界算是領先的"},{"start":686.451,"end":694.496,"text":"那相關這個智慧科技的政策會整成這個智慧醫療結合健康照護的這個計畫你們如果很強的話那需要多久的時間?"},{"start":696.387,"end":697.467,"text":"1個月好了"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:23:59 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14:35:58","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155368","gazette":{"lineno":1399,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（14時24分）謝謝召委。首先還是要對召委表示佩服，你今天在這裡勇於承擔發言，因為我一個人在下面不好意思給你鼓掌，但我還是給你拍拍手，非常感動。謝謝，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。本席在9月24日總質詢的時候有特別提到這個問題，因為當時質詢時間很有限，沒有讓部長好好回答這個問題，我在這邊就放慢速度來請教部長。我們的文健站及巷弄長照站的照服員已經整整5年沒有調薪了，這5年如果依照公務人員的調薪幅度，假設再加上明年的3%，全部加起來的話，這幾年已經調整了11%，但是我們回頭看這些照服員5年都沒有調薪，在這個時間點我們是不是也應該要有一個適度的調整？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得這個薪水看起來是比較低，我印象中好像有調整。"],["陳委員瑩：以前的調整應該只是補齊他們該領而沒有領的部分，那個跟政府整體調薪狀況是不一樣的。"],["邱部長泰源：現在調到什麼程度？請專門委員向委員說明。"],["王專門委員玲玲：報告委員，其實目前長照的薪資還是高於基本工資，對於委員所講的調薪問題，這個可能有關……"],["陳委員瑩：你是說高於什麼工資？"],["王專門委員玲玲：基本工資，我們目前還是高，我們以前就訂得比較高。"],["陳委員瑩：所以只要高於基本工資兩萬多塊錢，我們就應該要很開心，很滿足了嗎？"],["王專門委員玲玲：也不是這樣子說。"],["陳委員瑩：最低基本工資是兩萬八千多吧？"],["王專門委員玲玲：我們目前住宿型機構的話，像照服員大概都已經是四萬多塊錢，機構也大概都有三、四萬塊以上了。"],["陳委員瑩：文健站還有3萬3,000啊！文健站也是照服員啊！"],["邱部長泰源：文健站是原民會。"],["陳委員瑩：但是經費是從你們這邊來的啊！"],["王專門委員玲玲：是他們編的。"],["邱部長泰源：是原民會編的啦！如果太低的話，應該要編到適當以示公平。"],["陳委員瑩：因為整個預算也還是跟衛福部協商調整申請過來的，這個部分我看你們兩位還在台上一直討論，可能不是很清楚，感覺掌握度沒有很好。"],["邱部長泰源：因為這是原民會，沒關係，我們就轉達給原民會來討論。"],["陳委員瑩：就是你們願意加碼，然後他們可以去調整薪資。"],["王專門委員玲玲：就是他們提過來我們這邊申請。"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們會主動跟他們討論這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：好，部長的主動性很好。"],["邱部長泰源：我們要面對問題來解決問題。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝，這個就是我們想聽到的答案。","部長，再來就是透過調整軍公教待遇，帶動民間企業的跟進，全民共享經濟成長的果實，我覺得包括非營利單位，當然就是包括我們的照服員，因為我們準備要進入長照3.0，衛福部是不是可以好好的來研議，整體來看一下這個事情，當然也謝謝部長剛剛特別提到文化健康站照服員的部分。","另外，我在總質詢的時候也有提到，當時我有列出所有部會主管的法人還有基金會的調薪狀況，我不知道部長當時有沒有看得很清楚，這些衛福部主管的法人、基金會，今年都是沒有調薪或調不到4%，譬如婦女權益促進發展基金會、藥害救濟基金會、國衛院、醫策會等等，他們也都沒有調或調不到4%。我想先強調一個概念，調整軍公教薪資待遇這件事情，我們不是要去討論他的績效或績效獎金，我想跟部長討論的是，這些人跟公務人員一樣，都是為了政府的政策推廣及服務在努力，軍公教調薪的狀況下，加薪調薪的部分卻漏了他們，我覺得這個不是很合理，因為也嚴重的打擊士氣。請教部長，這些單位今年的4%什麼時候可以調整？還有明年的3%是不是也可以如期的調整？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個數據好像跟上次我們關心的時候稍微……我印象中只有婦女權益促進發展基金會當時是沒有調……"],["陳委員瑩：其他都調了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我是認為只要公務人員調，其實很多私立機構應該都要同步，這個如果做不到是不是有什麼原因，我們要去瞭解，是不是因為經費不足或者是他們的制度要怎麼處理，我們都趕快來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：因為有的還要強調績效這件事情，有些性質是不一樣的……"],["邱部長泰源：對啦！像國衛院就沒什麼績效，也不是沒有績效，因為它都是一直在研究。"],["陳委員瑩：它很有績效，但是……"],["邱部長泰源：我的意思是說，它很有績效，但不是關乎錢的績效……"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！"],["邱部長泰源：它是國家衛生智庫，所以它對國家的貢獻是非常大。"],["陳委員瑩：對，有些單位不是看他們賺多少錢來衡量。"],["邱部長泰源：它就沒什麼收益啊！國家衛生研究院很窮耶，每次統刪都必須把他們的計畫刪掉一些，他們也痛苦不堪。"],["陳委員瑩：部長如果有這樣的概念很好，也請部長回去好好地再檢查，我都列出來了。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們馬上來研究。"],["陳委員瑩：你還沒有回答我的問題，現在才10月，起碼後面還有兩個月，今年其實是有調4%，然後明年要調3%，你們要不要趕上一下進度？"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來處理，如果該補的就補啊！錢的事情絕對是火急。"],["陳委員瑩：是，大家都有聽到，這是我們詢問過最阿莎力、認知最棒的衛福部部長。"],["邱部長泰源：應該要調的就要趕快調。"],["陳委員瑩：是，謝謝。有沒有可能在10月底的時候麻煩大家彙整，然後跟我們辦公室說明一下狀況跟進度，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們還去跟人事處……但是我是覺得一定要想盡辦法達到目標。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯，我們大家一起努力啦！但我還是要講一下，請在10月底到我們辦公室報告一下狀況、你們努力的結果。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["陳委員瑩：另外，現在政府有很多的政策都會結合智慧科技，就好像交通方面的科技執法，還有在教育部方面也廣泛運用智慧科技在教學當中，包括本席正在推動的生成式AI原住民族語言對話的學習系統。星期一部長召開了智慧醫療三大AI中心的記者會，結合了智慧科技的運用，當然整體來說這個是現在的趨勢，星期一記者會的主題是在智慧醫療，但是我在8月的時候有邀請衛福部各個機關來開會，請你們彙整目前衛福部所有有關智慧科技運用的政策與計畫，這個表是你們彙整給我的。我們看一下其中紅色框起來的兩個項目，也是我上屆推動的社區健康營造結合科技運用的計畫，這是我相當關心，也是部落偏鄉非常需要的一個計畫，其中有一個主要的內容就是讓所有長者佩戴智慧手環，藉著手環可以瞭解長者的健康狀況，並且可以即時在有狀況的時候營救，給予處理急救。如果把智慧醫療結合智慧照護政策，這也是賴總統推動健康臺灣的政策，健康臺灣當中有一個項目是智慧醫療結合智慧照護，部長，所以我們是不是應該再詳細盤點，到底哪些政策跟計畫是以智慧科技用在醫療及照護？請你們將之彙整成一個計畫，哪些是常態性的政策，哪些是階段性的項目，這個部分我們把它做一個完整的整理。我提出這樣的要求是因為我們之前跟你們詢問及要求所做的整理內容其實是不清不楚，也沒有太具體的內容，有關本席說的這個部分，我希望你們做一個彙整。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，我們資訊處蠻強的，可以來整理。"],["陳委員瑩：好的，希望很強可以一次到位，因為我們已經有點拖了一些時間。"],["邱部長泰源：我們那個三大中心可以算是世界領先的喔。"],["陳委員瑩：相關智慧科技的政策彙整成智慧醫療結合健康照護的計畫，你們如果很強的話，需要多久的時間？"],["邱部長泰源：1個月好了。"],["陳委員瑩：這樣喔，如果可以的話，在10月底就一併跟調薪的事情來跟我們報告啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好、好，我們先記起來。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝，我前面對召委也讚許了很久……"],["主席：好啦，謝謝，我讓你多講了好幾分鐘，謝謝陳委員。謝謝部長。","最後一位請林倩綺委員。林委員，講快一點啊，還沒有吃飯。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:11:24","end_time":"2024-10-09T14:23:52+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155367","委員名稱":"劉建國","duration":684,"start_time":"2024-10-09T14:12:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600af255ba54b50f5a0b20a63eef073e7d61dad9963b523f8b14aaf2078427f2be5d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":4.469093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.92471875,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.855968750000002,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.88034375,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.38221875,"end":32.2622187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電要調漲這個14%。"},{"start":32.381,"end":32.401,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":61.487,"end":67.848,"text":"現階段有相關因應嗎?有一百一十四年度的優惠電價及電價動漲進來要回歸到衛福部來編嗎?這個有因應嗎?我們社福機構本來就"},{"start":83.959,"end":106.832,"text":"有編了一億七千九百十三萬一百一十四年就已經有編列了嘛對不對有有有那預算到現在還沒有過嗎啊沒有啊沒有嗎好所以沒什麼問題等他過就OK嗎要等他過啊沒有過就不OK嗎當然啦當然嘛這是今年度是114年度才編的嘛113沒有嘛對不對"},{"start":109.674,"end":120.666,"text":"對嘛,預算沒有,就是新編的預算嘛,對嘛那我講得多,如果預算過就OK嘛如果預算沒有過就不OK囉是啊,因為它是新興是嘛是嘛,那要怎麼因應萬一沒有過你說預算沒有過對啊預算沒有過"},{"start":133.573,"end":137.354,"text":"我們看看從法規上面有什麼狀況有什麼可以來"},{"start":149.651,"end":170.058,"text":"我要跟你表達說,如果114年度的預算卡關,那到時候會不會影響到整個你要去處理的這些相關的社會的機構的這個電匯的情況,對不對?當然會,尤其是新興的計畫。是啊,所以這個你要準備要因應嘛。因為你如果沒有準備相關的因應作為,因為是新的預算,到時候就會出問題嘛。"},{"start":171.589,"end":187.017,"text":"當然不是很多但是他還是要命的錢啊不要到時候讓所有我們這些身上有需要的衛生的這些用電的器材都不敢用啊那就糟糕了對啊那到時候變成部長要到很多地方去看因為都不敢用電"},{"start":188.158,"end":188.378,"text":"這部長有講過吧?"},{"start":208.334,"end":222.639,"text":"嗯...你說...政府會申告啦!他說考量醫療院所嘛!所以...所以上禮拜...這幾天這個嘛!對嘛!對!對!對!我當然...我當然你要掌握啊!對!我知道啊!我知道!四點...兩點半你可能...喔!比較辛苦!嘿!不好意思!你沒...你沒會合的問題啦!"},{"start":227.36,"end":255.871,"text":"經濟部給予這個醫療院所的電價動漲本期是肯定那也要感謝部長在這過程中努力溝通但是本期也請部長看一下這個新聞電價調漲加缺工那新冠疫情再起普拉同下個月就要漲價5到6%我想這個部分我不曉得部長怎麼看待這個事情因為醫療院所會跟民生物價有相關聯那藥品也是重要的民生物品"},{"start":257.295,"end":257.855,"text":"因為我們已經缺藥一段蠻長久的時間"},{"start":286.738,"end":290.561,"text":"如果缺藥的話我們當然食藥署有缺藥的一個平台那如果因為成本"},{"start":313.404,"end":314.625,"text":"對那部長有什麼樣的考量跟意願作為嗎?"},{"start":342.543,"end":360.442,"text":"在如果是要訂不到或者是那個可能這個這個我們食藥署就有一個平台只要任何缺藥的狀況我們就會馬上處理那如果是整系統性的問題我們當然會做整體的處理那如果因為"},{"start":362.13,"end":390.349,"text":"因為價錢的關係的話或者是我不曉得委員是要針對他電費漲價以後剛剛電費漲價又漲價嘛又缺工嘛然後然後這成本是不是要提高嘛對那進而影響到家庭必備的這個藥品的價格也往上提高嗎當然我是很希望這些民生藥品都照顧到人民健健康的齁的單位齁都盡量能夠不要漲電費啦對"},{"start":392.19,"end":393.311,"text":"那我們如果是比較屬於1、4方面"},{"start":416.254,"end":437.039,"text":"2345"},{"start":437.159,"end":461.102,"text":"部長雖然是在吳耀廷剛上任那我想你做事你是極先鋒我也期待你再把你的立委這種精神可以對衛福部相關業務做一次總體檢說真的這是有必要的但當然你要騰出一些時間出來你看監察院在9月提出糾正糾正衛福部長期忽視安置在成人機構之特殊需求兒少相關權益"},{"start":463.667,"end":491.563,"text":"並未能落實兒少最佳利益何有代思這是監察院的一個報告在176名的特殊需求兒少被地方政府安置在成人機構沒有適當的療癒及照顧沒有定期的評估沒有符合兒少最佳利益甚至於有6成9兒少就這樣放任在成人機構中超過兩年還有47位到現在沒有就學"},{"start":492.803,"end":516.702,"text":"我想身為這個中央主管機關衛福部疏於監督啊所以被監察院糾正但是我要恭喜部長你知道為什麼要恭喜你嗎因為萬幸的是今天是監察院提出糾正而不是小朋友出了狀況那其實齁再這樣下去狀況會越來越多狀況會擺出"},{"start":519.299,"end":525.327,"text":"不然應該大家都還記得吧半年前凱凱案這半年的事情"},{"start":527.045,"end":527.605,"text":"我相信幾位長官應該都有聽我講過嘛齁"},{"start":556.224,"end":582.279,"text":"我們衛福有定一個叫直轄縣市運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則而這個原則還說明像針對凱凱這種特殊家庭小朋友的保母還必須上課才有這個資格去帶他對不對那結果台北市他認為他自己的安置資源足夠不必遵循這樣的原則所以最後才發生這樣的憾事"},{"start":584.065,"end":598.269,"text":"所以我是針對這個凱凱案來談論這個糾正案這兩個東西還是要放在一塊我要提醒部長還有提醒各位長官這個不是一個單一安置的制度出問題 對不對所以你們針對這個事情要怎麼去運用"},{"start":602.53,"end":628.052,"text":"市委員我們當然本部已經很積極的督導地方政府足按全面檢視特殊需求兒童的照顧狀況擬定安置計畫那第二個當然就要增加所需要的經費第三個我們補助長照機構受制兒少專顧專門照顧的區域給他一個完整比較完整的身心發展需求的一個照顧環境"},{"start":629.649,"end":653.791,"text":"部長我是這樣跟你去理解你好不好我覺得這一個月內趕快把它盤整完成啦相關的我們的準則啦地方政府是不是有照這樣子去落實啦如果沒有的話那你們要怎麼應用怎麼處置嘛然後也是也不只涵蓋兒少嘛還有老人緊急長期的這些都應該要有一定的這樣的一個SOP嘛"},{"start":656.153,"end":656.173,"text":"謝謝劉委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:12:28 - 14:23:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155367","gazette":{"lineno":1339,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（14時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，部長辛苦了，部長要去的地方還有很多，等一下再一一跟你提醒。我們現在講電價，9月30日113年度的二次電價費率的審議會，部長應該有掌握嘛，就是決議產業用電要調漲14%，過去在社福機構、身障機構、服務機構、護理之家使用維生器材及必要的生活器具的身心障礙者家庭有電價的優惠，因應這一次的台電漲價，行政院也依照電業法已經指示並拍板114年的優惠電價及電價凍漲金額要回歸到衛福部內來編列，請問部長，現階段有相關因應嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，請問委員是講這一次嗎？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！114年度的優惠電價及電價凍漲金額要回歸到衛福部來編，這個有因應嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：社福機構本來就有編了1億7,913萬。"],["劉委員建國：所以已經編列了嘛，對不對？那預算到現在還沒有過嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：還沒有。"],["劉委員建國：所以沒什麼問題，等它過了就OK，沒有過就不OK嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：當然啦！"],["劉委員建國：是114年度才編的嘛，113年沒有嘛，對不對？對嘛？113年沒有，就是新編的預算嘛。那我講的如果預算過就OK嘛，如果預算沒有過就不OK囉？"],["邱部長泰源：是啊，因為它是新興的。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！那要怎麼因應？萬一沒有過的話。"],["邱部長泰源：你說預算沒有過喔？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：預算沒有過的話，大家想辦法。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你不能這樣回答我啦，我當然會跟你一起想辦法，但是你說「大家」這個範圍要到什麼程度？"],["邱部長泰源：我們看看從法規上面有什麼狀況可以來……"],["劉委員建國：我是要跟你表達，如果114年度的預算卡關，到時候會不會影響到整個你要去處理這些相關社福機構電費的情況。"],["邱部長泰源：當然會，尤其是新興的計畫。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！所以這個你要準備要因應嘛，你如果沒有準備相關的因應作為，因為是新的預算，到時候就會出問題嘛！一億多當然不是很多，但是這還是要命的錢啊！到時候如果讓所有這些身心障礙朋友，有需要的用電維生器材都不敢用，那就糟糕了。"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["劉委員建國：那到時候變成部長要到很多地方去看，因為他們都不敢用電了，所以你也要去看啊！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：經濟部發一個新聞稿，考量到醫療院所與民生物價的相關性較高，因此全部改為凍漲，這個部長有掌握吧？"],["邱部長泰源：就這幾天這個事情嘛！"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：我當然有掌握，我知道。"],["劉委員建國：已經下午2點多了，部長比較辛苦，你的血壓沒有問題吧？經濟部給予醫療院所電價凍漲，本席是肯定，也要感謝部長在這過程努力溝通，但是本席也請部長看一下這個新聞：電價調漲加缺工，新冠疫情再起，普拿疼下個月就要漲價5～6%。我不曉得部長怎麼看待這個事情，因為醫療院所會跟民生物價有相關聯，藥品也是重要的民生必需品，像普拿疼基本上就是家庭的常備用藥，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：如果在這波產業用電調漲中，製藥業也是要調啊，會不會有連鎖的反應進而影響到需求者？所以這個是很嚴重的問題，因為我們已經缺藥一段蠻長久的時間，到現在還有很多的藥品沒有補齊，彼此之間還在借調來借調去，狀況也蠻多的，我今天才跟健保署討論這個事情而已，那這個部分部長怎麼因應？"],["邱部長泰源：如果缺藥的話，當然食藥署有缺藥的一個平台，如果因為成本像電價漲或是各種原料成本漲，變成要漲價，這個我們當然要來想辦法，總是影響到人民，提高價錢就是影響到人民的用藥，所以這個的確是要考量。"],["劉委員建國：對，部長有什麼樣的考量跟因應作為嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果是藥訂不到，我們食藥署就有一個平台，只要有任何缺藥的狀況就會馬上處理；如果是系統性的問題，當然會做整體的處理；如果因為價錢的關係或者是……我不曉得委員是要針對電費漲價以後……"],["劉委員建國：電費漲價又缺工，這成本勢必要提高，這個會影響到家庭必備藥品的價格也會往上提高。"],["邱部長泰源：當然我是很希望這些照顧到人民健康的民生藥品還有單位都儘量不要漲電費，因為其實這次持續到現在……"],["劉委員建國：所以部長就講到重點，這個事情還有沒有機會來努力？"],["邱部長泰源：我今天早上也有談過，說如果有各個單位比較符合條件的，我覺得都可以來跟經濟部反映，如果是比較屬於醫事方面領域，或者是社福方面領域，我們都會來幫忙。"],["劉委員建國：OK，那就請部長朝這個方向來努力。"],["邱部長泰源：一定、一定。"],["劉委員建國：應該是大家有討論爭取的空間，就請部長辛苦一些了，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情，剛才講到特殊的兒童，當然就必須要特殊的照顧，部長雖然在520剛上任，我想你做事情是急先鋒，我也期待你把之前當立委這種精神來對衛福部相關業務做一次總體檢，說真的這是有必要的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：當然你要騰出一些時間出來，監察院在9月提出糾正，糾正衛福部長期忽視安置在成人機構之特殊需求兒少相關權益，並未能落實兒少最佳利益，核有怠失。這是監察院的報告。在176名特殊需求兒少被地方政府安置在成人機構，沒有適當的療癒及照顧，沒有定期的評估，沒有符合兒少最佳利益，甚至於有六成九兒少就這樣放任在成人機構中超過兩年，還有47位到現在沒有就學，身為中央主管機關衛福部疏於監督而被監察院糾正。但是我要恭喜部長，你知道我為什麼要恭喜你嗎？因為萬幸的是今天是監察院提出糾正，而不是小朋友出了狀況，其實再這樣下去狀況會越來越多，狀況會百出。","大家應該都還記得半年前的剴剴案，這半年的事情，大家記憶猶新，要說是地方政府亂了分寸、亂了套，沒有照SOP去執行，然後我們衛福部的監管機制也出了問題，事實就如此。所以部長在520就任之後，我希望要去針對這個事情做整個一次性的盤整。我當時針對剴剴案在這個委員會特別提到，我相信幾位長官應該都有聽我講過，衛福部有訂定一個叫直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則，而這個原則來說明像針對剴剴這種特殊家庭小朋友的保母還必須上課才有這個資格去帶他，對不對？結果臺北市認為自己的安置資源足夠，不必遵循這樣的原則，最後才發生這樣的憾事。我是針對剴剴案來談論這個糾正案，這兩個東西還是要放在一塊，我要提醒部長及提醒各位長官，這個不是一個單一安置的制度出問題，對不對？你們針對這個事情要怎麼去因應？"],["邱部長泰源：第一，本部已經很積極的督導地方政府逐案全面檢視特殊需求兒童的照顧狀況，擬定安置計畫；第二，當然就增加所需要的經費；第三，我們補助長照機構設置兒少專門照顧的區域，給予比較完整的身心發展需求的照護環境。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我跟你具體建議好不好？我覺得1個月內趕快把它盤整完成，擬定相關的準則，看地方政府是不是有照這樣子去落實，如果沒有的話，你們要怎麼因應、處置？再者不只涵蓋兒少，還有針對老人的緊急或長期照護，這些都應該要有一定的SOP，所訂定出來的準則，地方政府是不是有照這樣去遵守？如果沒有你們要如何處理？是不是整個做一個大盤整？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們要盤整一下。"],["劉委員建國：否則你會變成很多地方都需要去看喔！"],["邱部長泰源：我們盤整之後做系統性的改善。"],["劉委員建國：1個月的時間報給我們，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：謝謝劉委員，謝謝部長。","繼續請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:08:07","end_time":"2024-10-09T14:12:00+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155366","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","duration":487,"start_time":"2024-10-09T14:03:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a419235eff535852620a63eef073e7d61dad9963b523f8b14bb574d15a1fc2d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.82721875,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.817843750000002,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.340968750000002,"end":62.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.97471875,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.26971875000001,"end":71.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.80034375000001,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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那有請部長請部長委員長部長辛苦了吼午安我想我們就快速來進入主題我國人工生殖法法制化的進度我想要問一下今天早上非常多委員也都問過了我想要幫部長複習一下其實之前衛福部有兩場公聽會衛環委員會也有公聽會"},{"start":31.175,"end":53.904,"text":"可是當時我要談一下當時衛福部在公聽會上的立場說沒有既定立場有非常多專家學者會給予建議還會聽非常多有這個需求的朋友的建議那有這些需求的目前我們知道其實女童性配偶還有單身女性那至於要不要納入代理孕母的版本那在2024年8月19號中央社這個新聞我們看到部長你說"},{"start":55.125,"end":62.041,"text":"進可能希望在2個月內把更好的人工生殖法草案送到立法院。部長我可以問一下目前進度跟這個相關的規劃?"},{"start":65.305,"end":92.744,"text":"如果以進度表演的話我們因為預告以後收集了600多則的意見所以我們最近也開了五場六場的專家的討論會那我們希望把一些疑慮爭議那今天當然也聽到一些大家的聲音那我們請國建署再好好的在演繹希望如果以原來的規劃是西洋11頁到衛福部能夠"},{"start":93.985,"end":95.329,"text":"那部長你自己在這幾場公聽會裡面你覺得最有爭議的點會是什麼?"},{"start":109.122,"end":126.977,"text":"對我來說我覺得裡面最重要我想要談一下其實從開放給女同性配偶使用人工生殖從2019年開始原本他們只能用寄親收養的方法到了後來去年修法開放同性可以共同收養基本上我們對於同志家庭的權益保障已經越來越好了"},{"start":128.098,"end":149.703,"text":"但是對於你同性配我想要透過人工生殖技術生育子女的部分因為我覺得進展實在很慢那如同部長你剛剛說的到11月到12月那目前我們看到你們草案的版本裡面在這個部分確實有一些討論可是我要說的是在這樣的討論情況下那關於人工生殖的部分關於這個代孕的部分我覺得"},{"start":150.623,"end":173.797,"text":"﹗"},{"start":173.797,"end":174.718,"text":"那我想要分享一個案例喔之前有個新聞就這兩天彩虹平泉大平台的理事長"},{"start":191.556,"end":214.963,"text":"前一陣子在美國代孕的小孩出生了9月27號出生可是他之前代孕失敗了兩三次那也就是說確實在第一線的現場有人有這樣代孕的需求可是我們當然也聽到有非常多民眾如同部長您剛剛說的有600多則留言對於代孕這件事情是有疑慮的所以我要提醒部長在相關的法案版本要出爐之前在這件事情上討論我的態度是持開放"},{"start":215.123,"end":226.03,"text":"但是我希望衛福部在這件事情上可以更積極的討論到底那個意見因為我知道衛福部在相關政策認為要不要綁定其實都有不同的說法那部長你今天可以稍微說明一下嗎"},{"start":227.947,"end":245.299,"text":"我覺得這個待遇當然是爭議很大的部分可是我們還是想要聽聽看你們目前的立場或者是可能的規劃會是什麼我們本來國建署跟專家還有預告的版本是都出了開放的態度是綁在一起的嘛對不對對"},{"start":246.781,"end":263.463,"text":"但是可能因為這個綁在一起我必須要說他到底要不要脫鉤處理讓女童配偶的部分單身女性的部分可以先用人工生殖的技術把比較有專業代理孕母也許在之後但是我知道衛福部還在討論但是我只要提出在現場其實有非常非常多需求要被衛福部看見好嗎"},{"start":265.359,"end":278.771,"text":"因為這是一個老問題我們應該要有新的思維來解決看看有沒有辦法解決嘛所以我想大家存著互相尊重大家社會關懷"},{"start":281.293,"end":282.855,"text":"在公平正義合乎倫理的情況之下這才是一個比較溫馨的社會"},{"start":298.092,"end":325.838,"text":"是我認同謝謝部長那雖然我時間已經結束可是主席可以再給我1分鐘嗎好謝謝主席另外一個這跟這個沒有關係這頭影片可以先切掉我想要問部長其實今天談到關於那個安置機構的部分我想要跟部長分享一段話部長你聽聽看你覺得我等一下描述這段話是處於什麼樣的安置機構有一個社區它的居民多由單親、隔代教養、移民華僑、原住民、身心障礙等等家庭所組成成員非常複雜"},{"start":326.758,"end":339.566,"text":"所以這個社區呢逐漸成為治安的毒瘤自成一格裡面有吸毒幫派竊盜打架家暴層出不窮裡面的很多孩子都遇到非常非常多的困境部長你覺得這是一個什麼樣的機構或是什麼樣的一個組織他們在面臨的問題"},{"start":343.85,"end":358.109,"text":"這聽起來好像是電影的裡面才...對對對,不然聽起來很生氣齁主席我給你報告這個是一個真實存在臺北市的安康社區安康社區那我要講的是像"},{"start":358.49,"end":377.483,"text":" ️"},{"start":377.503,"end":377.523,"text":"閱讀者"},{"start":400.558,"end":401.979,"text":"但是他們完全不在衛福部社安網的視野"},{"start":418.473,"end":420.676,"text":"這個是政大的學院他們是微光盒子"},{"start":435.735,"end":451.307,"text":"對對對 有人跟你偷偷講了啦齁但是我要講的是但是如果說有這種 真的有這種情況我們很NAT了解來幫忙我會給部長報告最後一個其實全台灣像這樣子類機構齁他們做的是比較創新的事情"},{"start":452.048,"end":452.388,"text":"好,沒問題。好,部長那我們來相約喔。"},{"start":481.535,"end":484.627,"text":"謝謝部長一起關心這些社會偏遠的孩子謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:03:53 - 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謝謝主席那不好意思麻煩一下我們邱部長謝謝部長好部長請問一下那不知道我們本席這次有觀察到今年比往年發生更多的社會案件那當然也搞得我們社會人心惶惶那不知道這部分部長有沒有注意到"},{"start":33.254,"end":48.352,"text":"對沒關係因為據我們目前看到發生很多社會案件像我們最近有看到學校同儕之間發生口角就把利器將人割喉致死還有多年照顧"},{"start":50.077,"end":76.516,"text":"失能失智者不堪照顧的沉重壓力殺死至親這個案件那這些悲劇也一再證明我們社會安全網仍有破口,不知道部長認同嗎?是,我想社會安全網我們過去幾年來真的是一直在努力但是可能還是沒有辦法完全的周全我們一定全力來改善"},{"start":77.762,"end":98.466,"text":"那這一部分其實我們有注意到那如果公權力可以提早介入像這個新北哥河跟高雄市母案這些事情如果公權力如果能夠提早介入這個憾事就能夠避免發生那陽性國中今年也可以平安的就讀高中"},{"start":98.746,"end":124.65,"text":"﹗"},{"start":125.451,"end":146.071,"text":"父親離異再婚母親自殺那繼母又因為毒品坐牢那衛祖父是槍炮案然後高雄四母案他的加害者是代業四個人同住一個家庭但是重點父母都領有身心障礙的手冊三人代業那個正父他是唯一"},{"start":146.271,"end":165.196,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":165.569,"end":191.638,"text":"是的,謝謝委員對這件事情的關心那我們也有做檢討那在橫向的方面當然就是教育體系跟那個關乎體系的一個連接點這個部分是不是可以再緊密一點那當然我們衛福部都會在社會安全網方面提供更多的資源來"},{"start":193.78,"end":218.114,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":218.675,"end":240.516,"text":"說實在話是不是我們針對社會這個漏網的媒介社工的部分是不是因為社工的部分真的太短缺了社工的部分如果割喉案的部分呢一個孩子在學校其實學校的確也有專輔人員然後再來他因為他是偏差少年"},{"start":240.964,"end":260.026,"text":"﹗"},{"start":260.254,"end":280.887,"text":"對啊 所以我們認為應該要加強我們衛福部保護性志工這一部分要加強可是據我們了解好像這些志工好像面臨似乎現在都面臨三高三缺的問題部長知道三高三缺嗎是志工還是社工保護性社工"},{"start":283.63,"end":304.04,"text":"3高就是流動性高然後這個風險高案件量高對因為今天保護性社工會這麼缺乏據我們了解這3高就是剛剛講的高案量高風險高壓力那3缺就是缺合作缺督導缺資源"},{"start":304.68,"end":333.329,"text":"那這些保護性社工缺乏所以我們一直認為政府早在這些就應該要事前先去做結果每次都是發生之後我們再去了解以後是發生了什麼情形我們覺得這麼多的社會案件你看這尤其這兩件喔它本來就應該是我們政府早就掌握資訊了可是並沒有事前去做所以我們一直認為應該是預防重於治療對不對"},{"start":335.706,"end":359.868,"text":"是的是的所以重點我們衛福部有沒有針對這部分去做檢討你看六都沒有一個縣市的社工是足兒的而且這個離職率還是都非常非常的高你看我們台南台南的這個離職率比護理師的離職率還高那針對這部分衛福部有沒有提出一些檢討的辦法"},{"start":361.92,"end":375.331,"text":"我在這邊還是要特別強調社工工作的多元化跟辛苦那我想衛務部應該提出更積極的計畫來留住社工的人才"},{"start":376.328,"end":377.828,"text":"謝謝委員我們在行政院推動強化社會安全網的第二期計畫裡頭"},{"start":398.234,"end":417.585,"text":"議員"},{"start":417.585,"end":434.77,"text":"﹗"},{"start":435.593,"end":464.693,"text":"對 所以這邊今天講這個凸顯這個問題啦因為保護性社工這個問題我們希望趕快因為已經知道原因了那衛福部就應該趕快去克服不應該讓這些憾事一再的發生像這些事情你看針對學生這個暴險少年還有這個社會的弱勢群體我們早就應該是預防重於治療那如果把這個社工的人數趕快去看怎麼樣去補足"},{"start":465.213,"end":466.453,"text":"好,還有針對我們最近也有發生"},{"start":489.639,"end":509.786,"text":"幼兒園,現在人家講幼兒在幼兒園到底安不安全,現在又發生孩童教保園治三肋兒監視器的畫面,就我們新北永和分校有發生這件事情,那個部長你知道這個案件嗎?"},{"start":513.329,"end":525.359,"text":"那是幼兒園那針對我們社家屬是不是本身在今年有要針對全台的監管員上線那目前情形到底如何"},{"start":529.531,"end":530.051,"text":"但是我們現在發現一個問題喔"},{"start":559.931,"end":581.605,"text":"衛福部托嬰中心監視錄影設備的設置及資訊管理利用辦法這第3條他針對指定場所安置監視設備那我沒有看到這個條例但是如果他沒有安裝的話有沒有有沒有罰則有依照兒少權法是有罰則有訂定罰則嗎有"},{"start":583.533,"end":601.23,"text":"已經有訂定法則了目前托嬰中心就應該要裝監視器如果他沒有裝是有法則的好那針對我們這次幼兒園發生他說什麼監視器硬碟啊損壞啊沒有盡快修復沒有辦法提供畫面那這部分也有法則嗎"},{"start":602.985,"end":628.916,"text":"跟委員報告這個幼兒園因為是教育部主管那我們衛福部是主管0到20歲的托嬰中心對那針對這部分沒有做沒有沒有修復這些部分我們衛福部這邊有沒有針對剛剛我講的衛福部托嬰中心這個監視器設置設備如果沒有做或者他說硬碟損壞沒有辦法提供畫面你有這個條例可是好像我們沒有看到這個罰則"},{"start":631.937,"end":652.124,"text":"我們的托嬰中心如果他沒有這個裝監視錄影帶這些都有法則因為我們地方政府的人員都會去查核那這是依照兒少權法裡面的明定托嬰中心必須要裝監視器那幼兒園是教育部主管那教育部並沒有對幼兒園一定強制性的要求要裝飾那個監視器"},{"start":655.74,"end":668.117,"text":"而少前法有規定特用中心應該要裝置監視錄影設備而且要保存30天阿如果他沒辦法提供影像可以限期改善或者是新台幣3萬以上30萬以下的花款"},{"start":671.468,"end":693.299,"text":"我們希望衛福部針對監管員這部分盡快趕快如期上線還有也要針對我們這些監視器該安裝沒有安裝甚至該提供他沒有辦法提供我覺得要訂定一個相關明確的針對這些法令還有這些配套一定要訂定明確然後針對監管員到時候"},{"start":696.22,"end":725.759,"text":"謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:51:35 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14:03:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155365","gazette":{"lineno":1248,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時51分）好，謝謝主席，不好意思麻煩一下我們邱部長。"],["主席：謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，請問一下，本席這次有觀察到，今年比往年發生更多的社會案件，當然也搞得我們社會人心惶惶，不知道這部分部長有沒有注意到？"],["邱部長泰源：社會案件？"],["涂委員權吉：對，沒關係，因為據我們目前看到，發生很多社會案件，像我們最近有看到，學校同儕之間發生口角，就用利器將人割喉致死，還有多年照顧失能、失智者，不堪照顧的沉重壓力，殺死至親這個案件。這些悲劇也一再證明，我們社會安全網仍有破口，不知道部長認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，社會安全網我們過去幾年來真的是一直在努力，但可能還是沒有辦法完全的周全，我們一定全力來改善。"],["涂委員權吉：這部分其實我們有注意到，如果公權力可以提早介入，像這個新北割喉跟高雄弒母案，這些事情如果公權力能夠提早介入，憾事就能夠避免發生，楊姓國中生今年也可以平安的就讀高中，鄭姓男子現在也可以過正常的生活。這兩個部分其實我們政府應該早就掌握資訊，可是沒有能夠及時介入，部長你認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["涂委員權吉：因為你看這個新北割喉案，他的加害者其實是來自高風險的家庭，父親離異再婚、母親自殺，繼母又因為毒品坐牢，外祖父是槍砲案。然後高雄弒母案的加害者是待業，4個人同住一個家庭，重點是他父母都領有身心障礙的手冊，3人待業，鄭父是唯一的家庭支柱。所以我們認為，政府針對這一部分，一定有能力早就掌握這些資訊，但是為什麼這些事情還是會發生？是不是我們的社會安全網哪一個地方、哪一個環節出了問題？"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝委員對這件事情的關心，我們也有做檢討，橫向的方面當然就是教育體系跟觀護體系的一個連結點。這部分是不是可以再緊密一點，當然我們衛福部都會在社會安全網方面提供更多的資源，來落實以家庭為中心的評估需求與連結資源。"],["涂委員權吉：因為這些事情，其實我認為政府應該要在事前，明明這些是政府早就掌握的訊息，事前就可以防治。但是這些事情，卻是每次發生後才去現場瞭解，所以是不是這個機制產生了問題？說實在話，我們針對社會這個漏網的媒介，是不是因為社工的部分真的太短缺了？"],["張司長秀鴛：割喉案的部分，一個孩子在學校，其實學校的確也有專輔人員，再來因為他是偏差少年，因此他也有觀護體系的觀護人。所以在網絡跟網絡之間，彼此互相在資訊還有連結上可以更緊密，我想就如委員所說，這個漏網之魚，事實上是可以攔得到的。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！所以我認為應該要加強衛福部保護性志工，這部分要加強，可是據我們了解，這些志工是不是現在都面臨三高三缺的問題？部長知道三高三缺嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：是志工還是社工？"],["涂委員權吉：保護性社工。"],["張司長秀鴛：三高就是流動性高、風險高、案件量高。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為今天保護性社工這麼缺乏，據我們瞭解，這三高就是剛剛講的──高案量、高風險、高壓力；三缺就是缺合作、缺督導、缺資源。這些保護性社工的缺乏，所以我們一直認為政府早就該事前先去做，結果每次都是發生之後再去瞭解發生了什麼情形。這麼多的社會案件，你看尤其這兩件，他本來就應該是政府早就掌握資訊了，可是並沒有事前去做，所以我們一直認為，應該是預防重於治療，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以重點是衛福部有沒有針對這部分去做檢討，你看六都，沒有一個縣市的社工是足額的，而且離職率都還是非常的高。你看我們臺南的離職率比護理師的離職率還高，針對這部分，衛福部有沒有提出一些檢討的辦法？"],["邱部長泰源：我在這邊還是要特別強調，社工工作的多元化跟辛苦，我想衛福部應該提出更積極的計畫，來留住社工的人才。"],["涂委員權吉：不是，剛剛就有講，因為三高三缺，但現在就是因為保護性社工的缺乏，缺乏的問題也知道，那衛福部主管單位，難道都沒有辦法去改善這些問題嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：是，謝謝委員，我們在行政院推動強化社會安全網的第二期計畫裡頭，其實目前補助全國的保護性社工一共有1,391名。除了人數的增加之外，另外我們在薪資上也做了一些調整，以及風險加給部分也有增加。再來把他的職位也做了一些增加，多了一個資深社工的調整，讓他的升遷管道天花板拉高，還有加強他的專業訓練，這些都是在整體上，我們想留住人才的一些措施。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以今天凸顯這個保護性社工的問題，因為已經知道原因了，衛福部就應該趕快去克服，不應該讓這些憾事一再的發生。像這些事情，你看針對學生，這個曝險少年，還有社會的弱勢群體，我們早就應該是預防重於治療，把社工的人數趕快看怎麼樣補足，甚至比照我們怎麼慰留護理師的政策，我覺得保護性社工這一部分，我們也要去重視啊！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，我想我們一定會全力的，特別在預防方面，能夠做到預防的工作。"],["涂委員權吉：好，還有針對最近也發生的幼兒園事件，現在人家講幼兒在幼兒園到底安不安全？現在又發生孩童教保員自刪虐兒監視器的畫面，新北永和分校有發生這件事情，部長你知道這個案件嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：那是幼兒園……"],["涂委員權吉：對於社家署，今年要針對全臺的監管員上線，目前情形到底如何？"],["邱部長泰源：本來今年有在研議也有預算，但是因為法律不足……"],["涂委員權吉：現在是還在研議，還是要不要做？"],["邱部長泰源：現在我們已經在準備，應該明年可以上線，我們解決……"],["涂委員權吉：我們應該是確定要做吧？"],["邱部長泰源：確定要做。"],["涂委員權吉：部長你講研議我們聽了很害怕。"],["邱部長泰源：我是說現在在加強法規跟預算經費，然後明年可以上線。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這部分已經確定要做嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：確定。"],["涂委員權吉：但是我們現在發現一個問題，衛福部托嬰中心監視錄影設備設置及資訊管理利用辦法，第三條針對指定場所安置監視設備，我沒有看到這個條例，但是如果它沒有安裝的話，有沒有罰則？"],["張代理署長美美：有，依照兒少權法是有罰則。"],["涂委員權吉：有訂定罰則嗎？"],["張代理署長美美：有。"],["涂委員權吉：已經有訂定罰則了？"],["張代理署長美美：對，目前托嬰中心應該要裝監視器，如果沒有裝是有罰則的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對這次的幼兒園事件，他說什麼監視器硬碟損壞，沒有儘快修復，沒有辦法提供畫面，那這部分也有罰則嗎？"],["張代理署長美美：跟委員報告，幼兒園因為是教育部主管，我們衛福部是主管0到2歲的托嬰中心。"],["涂委員權吉：那針對這部分，沒有做、沒有修復的部分？針對剛剛我講的，衛福部托嬰中心的監視器設置設備，如果沒有做或者它說硬碟損壞沒有辦法提供畫面，你有這個條例，可是我們好像沒有看到罰則？"],["張代理署長美美：我們的托嬰中心如果沒有裝監視錄影帶，這些都有罰則，因為我們地方政府的人員都會去查核，這是依照兒少權法裡面明定托嬰中心必須要裝監視器。至於幼兒園是教育部主管，教育部並沒有對幼兒園強制性要求裝置監視器。"],["邱部長泰源：兒少權法有規定托嬰中心應該要裝置監視錄影設備，而且要保存30天，如果它沒辦法提供影像，可以限期改善，或者是處新台幣3萬以上，30萬以下的罰鍰。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我們希望衛福部針對監管員的部分，儘快、趕快如期上線，也要針對這些監視器，該安裝而沒有安裝的，甚至該提供而沒有辦法提供，我覺得要訂定一個相關明確的，針對這些法令和這些配套一定要明確訂定；再者，針對監管員萬一對這些問題沒有辦法調閱資料，一定要有一個明確的規範跟管理辦法出來。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：現在這些事情層出不窮，裝監視器我們覺得不單可以保障家長跟孩童的問題，其實對於教保員、對於園方也是一個自保的方式，所以這部分希望衛福部儘快來處理。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們儘快落實。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:16:20","end_time":"2024-10-09T13:52:06+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155364","委員名稱":"黃國昌","duration":980,"start_time":"2024-10-09T13:35:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a924ef967846ac90a119ae97120cdb860dad9963b523f8b14267846fbddf791135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.11096875,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.88159375,"end":12.923468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.31159375,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.14659375,"end":17.5809687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主委今年你們預算書裡面啊剛我念的那一長串的向下的一百六十二萬你會不會拿來出這個不會絕對不會嘛絕對不會"},{"start":237.617,"end":257.486,"text":"那奇怪了那你們去年在做這件事情的時候我剛講的那一長串的東西顯然沒有這個業務需求嘛因為所有的錢拿去給主委出個人專刊都不夠了哪有錢做其他的事啊那代表了這個經費不是很需要啊怎麼今年又變了162萬"},{"start":259.076,"end":280.825,"text":"我們要做就是整個會裡面不會出個人的,或者是這個就出個人的阿!我不會再出個人的了阿你不會再出個人的嗎?不會不會好,非常好喔來來,我們再往下看今天喔,司法法制跟內政聯席會阿我們審查先停一下"},{"start":284.309,"end":309.083,"text":"奇怪這個是這個是沒有電那個我先跟主委溝通一個問題可能你上任沒多久但我覺得行政跟立法彼此之間我們黨團發文給你所知就請你提供資料我們發文給你所知客客氣氣的問你你去帛琉的行程結果你們發兩張新聞稿回我們黨團"},{"start":312.813,"end":341.807,"text":"稿到今天我必須要透過臨時提案的方式請你交你的行程出來沒有需要搞成這個樣子吧主委你認不認同認同你回去問一下會裡的人好不好好當初是誰決定發兩張新聞稿給我的好我們是立法委員我用黨團的名義去所知欸結果你發兩份新聞稿給我們今天我本來在考慮是不是要提遣這案"},{"start":343.575,"end":363.418,"text":"我真的在考慮要不要提前責案請主委回去了解清楚啊原民會哪一個同仁對於我發文去所知決定發兩個新聞稿給我把我當成媒體記者一模一樣給我一個書面報告可以嗎?好,可以,好"},{"start":364.435,"end":377.209,"text":"今天上面在審查你們9月公布替用族群的名單因為有原住民的委員要求有幾職要把他改成無幾職那你照理來講有族群名單這件事情"},{"start":383.679,"end":405.977,"text":"有族群委員這件事情感覺起來是對原住民好啊竟然有原住民的委員提案要從有幾職改成無幾職啊所以這個提案我就非常聚精會神的去看16個16個16個替用委員一年需要多少經費 主委知不知道大概2200萬左右2200萬一個人一年要多少"},{"start":413.817,"end":441.825,"text":"他一個月大概是八萬嘛一年大概就是一百萬左右不只啦你把那個細目啊把它全部弄出來啊我算過啦包括一些什麼有的沒有的補貼啦加班費啦所有的東西加起來十六個人兩千兩百萬一個人一年一百三十五萬嘛哇一百三十五萬一年一百三十五萬喔"},{"start":443.103,"end":465.042,"text":"哇 這個工作即使在公務體系裡面應該也是很好的工作嘛主委我這樣說沒有錯吧是待遇應該是非常好嘛是所以我就很關心嘛阿你們這些聘用委員到底是怎麼選出來的嘛我們先把基本的事實釐清啦這些聘用委員第一個不是選舉出來的對不對"},{"start":467.913,"end":492.797,"text":"第二、也不是國家考試出來的第三、也不是原民會自己辦的考試出來的我看了這個林聘辦法這個條件很寬鬆啦大概只要是熱心族群服務或深愛原住民事務深欲卓著就有資格了這個辦法是你們定的嘛後面又講說"},{"start":499,"end":528.027,"text":"委員之臨提必要的時候可以召開審查委員會審議嗎那你在提這些人的時候你有召開審查委員會嗎不是就是我們把所有他們所有可以自己推也可以自己推薦自己也可以團體來推薦沒有關係啦我只問你有召開審查委員會議嗎7月的時候有來做一個審就說一個初審所以沒有我們臺灣是法治國家你認同吧是"},{"start":528.772,"end":553.681,"text":"那既然是法治國家就要依法行政嘛那既然要依法行政你不是有一個林聘要點嗎林聘要點說必要的時候要開審查會議嘛那我的問題很簡單你有沒有開這個審查會議有還是沒有在七月的時候七月五號的時候有開呢開了多久就是把所有的資料整理一下我是問開了多久我不是問你整理哪些資料開了多久"},{"start":555.046,"end":582.043,"text":"那個旁邊的同仁喔請你在旁邊這個會議你有沒有參加差不多是一小時這個會議你有沒有參加我沒有參加但是我是有看這些資料等一下等一下等一下你說這個審查委員會你沒有參加喔我有把資料先看等一下等一下我先評一下這個會議你有沒有參加你有參加還是沒有參加我沒有參加你連這個會議都沒有參加喔但是所有的資料我都看過"},{"start":584.744,"end":609.867,"text":"哇 我的天啊好好好所有的資料都看過嘛那一天審查委員會的時候的會議資料這15個人履歷表有沒有交上來15個人的履歷表有對有交還沒有交全部都有啊 履歷表都有沒有啊16個啊No 沒有我今天上午上面問你們副主委你們副主委跟我說他有參加這個審查會"},{"start":611.496,"end":638.456,"text":"那我就問他第一個問題審查會有哪些書面資料他講不出來那我就認了一下欸奇怪欸 這審查會很重要欸要好好審查嘛一個人一年135萬欸15個人審一個小時欸非常神速啊我聽到這個效率我大驚失色啊我就進一步追問那請問有哪些審查資料"},{"start":640.373,"end":667.978,"text":"他認在那裡然後我問他說那請問有履歷表嗎他跟我說沒有然後我問他說那有什麼審查資料他說有一份名單他說有一份名單然後上面有這15個人的名字我的老天啊主委你按照這個臨聘要點啊上面的規定所開的審查會議啊連履歷表都沒有啊只有名單啊"},{"start":669.093,"end":694.584,"text":"主委你知不知道這件事啊還是你上面有給指令好好審查結果被你指派要審查的人根本在渾水摸魚情況到底是怎麼樣因為我剛才知道原來你沒有參加這個審查會議嗎因為所有他們的這個履歷表就是有投進來的履歷表我都有看過啦奇怪你有看過那些審查委員都沒看所以那個審查會議是在過水嗎"},{"start":697.132,"end":715.488,"text":"不是那奇怪 如果不是在過水 主委你可不可以跟大家解釋一下那他們那天開的審查會議 連履歷表都沒有 是在幹什麼因為這是你們副主委當面跟我講的啦你們旁邊那位處長 剛在上面的時候 你也有參與討論嘛你全部都有聽到嘛"},{"start":716.974,"end":743.844,"text":"他就是這樣跟我講的啊我大驚失色啊我想說哇一年一百三十五萬待遇這麼好的職位在開審查會議的時候一張座覺得有人命連履歷表都沒有這太憨了不好意思我不應該用那個不好意思我不太確定你是不是可以聽得懂臺灣台語所以我換另外一個話講就是說你會不會覺得太扯了"},{"start":745.373,"end":772.088,"text":"你以主委的高度告訴全體國人你會不會覺得太扯了因為這幾個人的這個履歷表我都有看過啊他們就是說整個整理起來這些人全部都是你挑的嗎不是我不是我挑的不是我不是我挑的不是你挑那是誰挑的就是我這個還要提報上去報上去這個是業者我先提一下這15個人裡面有沒有不是你提報的人有啊"},{"start":775.053,"end":786.449,"text":"這裡面有不是你提報的人喔來來來你跟大家講一下這15個有哪些不是你提報的人那等於是什麼行政院院長跳過你他自己選喔"},{"start":787.492,"end":804.337,"text":"是嗎因為我們提報不會說一個組如果說一個組如果很多就是很多人他們的這個推薦的幾件的人很多那我們就不會只有提報一個人對啦所以這裡面是不是都在你的提報名單裡還是裡面有人不是你提報的"},{"start":806.223,"end":835.066,"text":"有人不是我提報的那個會後再請主委跟大家用書面回覆我這15個人裡面有哪些不在你的提報名單上這樣可以嗎可以一個禮拜之內交上來可以嗎好這個事情為什麼重要因為原民會組織法怎麼規定的原民會組織法是要由主委提報給行政院院長任命那你今天解開大家的疑惑啦"},{"start":836.144,"end":863.998,"text":"原來裡面有委員不是你主委提報的欸等於是行政院院長跳過你欸塞他自己想要的人欸行政院院長可以幹這種事喔這個是嚴重喔請你回去徹查裡面有哪些人不是你提報的結果竟然是我們行政院院長任命的記得喔一個禮拜之內喔你在國會殿堂說裡面有人不是你提報的嘛好來我們來進一步看一下"},{"start":865.505,"end":885.503,"text":"這裡面的人有立委的助理有立委的執行長還有在幫民進黨一個特定的村在當聯絡人的充滿了一片綠油油、愁容的色彩還有參選、落選的那你這好康啊人是怎麼選的"},{"start":891.087,"end":910.931,"text":"喂!這好康啊!各位委員報告,這個 嚴明會成立28年以來本來就有這樣的一個這個族群委員一直都是這樣一直都是拿來酬庸的一直都是拿來養莊養角的,是嗎?老今天齁,我不跟你談藍綠啦國民黨執政幹這種事情我照樣批判啦民進黨執政幹這種事情主委你認同嗎?"},{"start":920.179,"end":946.361,"text":"你認同嗎?你以主委的高度你認同嗎?你認不認同?你也不認同嗎?好!好好的回去檢討這個制度你作為原民會的主委你今天有勇氣在國會殿堂裡面拉出你的高度現任的原民會主委也不認同我們的原民會聘用委員"},{"start":948.622,"end":976.264,"text":"給民進黨政府拿來這樣酬庸之用你這句話講得好有道德勇氣我給你一個讚這些人到底是怎麼選出來的我接下來一定會往下追查我一定會要行政院院長卓榮泰給大家一個交代時間的關係我雖然後面沒委員但我也不好意思耽誤所有的官員陪我在這邊繼續問你徐委員召委的時間我也要尊重好 謝謝"},{"start":979.203,"end":979.586,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:35:46 - 13:52:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155364","gazette":{"lineno":1300,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時35分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請原民會曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：曾主委你好。行政院院長卓榮泰在總質詢時說政府用錢不可以浪費公帑、編預算不可以浪費公帑，那執行預算可不可以浪費公帑？可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也不能浪費公帑。"],["黃委員國昌：不能浪費公帑嘛，非常好。原民會前主委花了145萬的公帑出個人成果專刊，60頁都是他個人活動的照片，這是不是在浪費公帑？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，除了這些照片，他還是有一些那個時候的成果……"],["黃委員國昌：你有看過內容嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我有大概看過。"],["黃委員國昌：他裡面有成果的部分跟原民會自己本身的成果專刊，兩者之間的內容你有沒有比較過？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是有比較過，但是他就是……"],["黃委員國昌：這裡面有之前原民會的專刊沒有的內容嗎？有嗎？這樣有沒有浪費公帑？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員說明，我想這個是前一任……我想我們還是會來做個檢討，希望未來……"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有浪費公帑都不敢回答，我要清楚的表明這百分之一百是浪費公帑，拿納稅人的錢做個人自我宣傳，可以這樣幹喔？我上一次質詢的時候，已經請你們原民會的同仁講清楚，在預算書裡面是編在哪一個項下去支出這筆錢的，因為我找不到。他們後來隨便跟我講了一個名目，叫做推動原住民族政策、法規制度、處理族群關係及本會研考業務之規劃與執行所需經費項下。問題是這個項下全部只有139萬，那我就看不懂了，剛剛我唸的那一長串這麼多的工作要做，結果編了139萬，卻花了145萬出他個人的寫真集。不好意思，我就直接這樣講，出他個人的寫真集，那其他的錢從哪裡來？我剛剛講那一長串的項下，全部的錢拿來用在這裡都還不夠，還要從別的地方挪。是不是可以請主委承諾我在一個禮拜之內，就這個專刊的錢從哪一些項下撥過來的，說清楚講明白，一個禮拜之內書面回復。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這個會期是預算會期，我看到你們今年的預算書又有我剛剛講的那一長串，文字一模一樣，推動原住民族政策、法規制度、處理族群關係及本會研考業務費用規劃執行所需經費，今年增加了，去年是134萬，今年增加到162萬。主委，今年你們的預算書裡面，剛剛我唸的一長串項下的162萬，你會不會拿來出這個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不會嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：絕對不會。"],["黃委員國昌：那就奇怪了，你們去年在做這件事情的時候，我剛剛講的那一長串的東西，顯然沒有這個業務需求嘛，因為所有的錢拿去給主委出個人專刊都不夠了，哪有錢做其他的事啊！代表這個經費不是很需要啊！怎麼今年又編了162萬？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們要做就是整個會裡面的，不會出個人的，或者是……"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是出個人的啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我不會再出個人的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：你不會再出個人的嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會、不會！"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常好。","我們再往下看，今天司法及法制跟內政聯席會，我先跟主委溝通一個問題，可能你上任沒多久，但我覺得行政跟立法彼此之間，我們黨團發文給你索資，就請你提供資料，我們發文給你索資，客客氣氣的問你去帛琉的行程，結果你們發兩張新聞稿回給我們黨團，搞到今天我必須要透過臨時提案的方式，請你交出你的行程，沒有需要搞成這個樣子吧！主委你認不認同？"],["曾主任委員智勇：認同。"],["黃委員國昌：你回去問一下會裡的人，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：當初是誰決定發兩張新聞稿給我的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我們是立法委員，我用黨團的名義去索資，結果你發兩份新聞稿給我們。今天我本來在考慮是不是要提譴責案，我真的在考慮要不要提譴責案。請主委回去了解清楚，原民會的哪一個同仁對於我發文索資，決定發兩張新聞稿給我，把我當成媒體記者一樣。給我一個書面報告，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：好。","今天樓上有審查，因為你們9月公布聘用族群委員的名單，有原住民的委員要求有給職要把它改成無給職，照理來講，有族群委員這件事情，感覺起來是對原住民好，但竟然有原住民的委員提案要從有給職改成無給職，所以這個提案我就非常聚精會神的去看，16個聘用委員一年需要多少經費，主委知不知道？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大概2,200萬左右。"],["黃委員國昌：一個人一年要多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：他一個月大概是8萬，一年大概就是100萬左右。"],["黃委員國昌：不只啦！如果把細目全部都弄出來，我算過了，包括一些什麼有的沒有的補貼、加班費等等，所有的東西加起來，16個人2,200萬，一個人1年135萬。哇！1年135萬喔！這個工作即使在公務體系裡面，應該也是很好的工作，主委，我這樣說沒有錯吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員國昌：待遇應該是非常好，所以我就很關心，你們這些聘用委員到底是怎麼選出來的？我們先把基本的事實釐清，第一個，這些聘用委員不是選舉出來的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，也不是國家考試出來的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也不是。"],["黃委員國昌：第三個，也不是原民會自己辦的考試出來的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我看了遴聘辦法，發現這個條件很寬鬆，大概只要是熱心族群服務或深諳原住民事務聲譽卓著者就有資格了，這個辦法是你們訂的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["黃委員國昌：後面又講，委員之遴提必要的時候得召開審查委員會審議，你在提這些人的時候，你有召開審查委員會嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，他們可以自己推薦自己，也可以團體來推薦……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我只問你有召開審查委員會議嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：7月的時候有做一個初審。"],["黃委員國昌：我們臺灣是法治國家，你認同吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員國昌：既然是法治國家就要依法行政，既然要依法行政，你不是有一個遴聘要點嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員國昌：遴聘要點規定必要的時候要開審查會議，我的問題很簡單，你有沒有開這個審查會議？有還是沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在7月5號的時候有開。"],["黃委員國昌：開了多久？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是把所有的資料整理一下……"],["黃委員國昌：我是問開了多久？我不是問你整理哪些資料。開了多久？旁邊的同仁，就請你在旁邊……"],["曾主任委員智勇：差不多……"],["黃委員國昌：這個會議你有沒有參加？"],["曾主任委員智勇：差不多是1小時。"],["黃委員國昌：這個會議你有沒有參加？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有參加，但是我是有看到這些資料。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！你說這個審查委員會你沒有參加？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，我有把資料先看……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，我先停一下，這個會議你有沒有參加？你有參加還是沒有參加？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有參加。"],["黃委員國昌：你連這個會議都沒有參加。"],["曾主任委員智勇：但是所有的資料我都看過。"],["黃委員國昌：哇！我的天啊！好，所有的資料都看過嘛，那一天審查委員會的會議資料，這15個人的履歷表有沒有交上來？"],["曾主任委員智勇：15個人的履歷表，有。"],["黃委員國昌：有交還沒有交？"],["曾主任委員智勇：全部的履歷表都有……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：16個……"],["黃委員國昌：NO！沒有！我今天上午在樓上問過你們副主委，你們副主委跟我說他有參加這個審查會，我就問他，第一個問題，審查會有哪些書面資料？他講不出來，我就楞了一下，奇怪耶！這個審查會很重要耶！要好好審查嘛！一個人1年135萬耶！15個人審1個小時，非常神速啊！聽到這個效率，我大驚失色啊！我就進一步追問，請問有哪些審查資料？他楞在那裡；然後我問他，請問有履歷表嗎？他跟我說沒有；然後我問他，那有什麼審查資料？他說有一份名單，然後上面有這15個人的名字，我的老天啊！按照這個遴聘要點上面的規定所開的審查會議，連履歷表都沒有啊！只有名單啊！主委，你知不知道這件事啊？還是你上面有給指令要好好審查，結果被你指派要審查的人根本在混水摸魚，情況到底是怎麼樣？因為我剛剛才知道，原來你沒有參加這個審查會議嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：他們所有投進來的履歷表，我都有看過啦！"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪！你有看過，那些審查委員都沒看，所以那個審查會議是在過水嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪！如果不是在過水，主委可不可以跟大家解釋一下，他們那些人開的審查會議，連履歷表都沒有是在幹什麼？因為這是你們副主委當面跟我講的，你們旁邊那位處長剛剛在上面的時候也有參與討論，你全部都有聽到嘛！他就是這樣跟我講的啊！我大驚失色啊！哇！1年135萬、待遇這麼好的職位，在開審查會議的時候，一張紙上面只有人名，連履歷表都沒有，這會不會太「譀」？不好意思，我不太確定你是不是可以聽得懂臺灣台語，所以我換另外一個話來說。"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒關係。"],["黃委員國昌：就是說你會不會覺得太扯了？你以主委的高度告訴全體國人，你會不會覺得太扯了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為這幾個人的履歷表我都有看過，他們就是整個整理起來……"],["黃委員國昌：這些人全部都是你挑的嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是我挑的……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，不是你挑的，那是誰挑的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個我還要提報上去，這個是……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，這15個人裡面有沒有不是你提報的人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊！"],["黃委員國昌：這裡面有不是你提報的人喔？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：來！你跟大家講一下，這15個委員有哪些不是你提報的人？那等於是什麼？行政院院長跳過你，由他自己選，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為我們提報不會是一個族，如果一個族他們推薦、舉薦的人很多，我們就不會只有提報一個人。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！所以這裡面是不是都在你的提報名單裡？還是裡面有人不是你提報的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有人不是我提報的。"],["黃委員國昌：會後再請主委用書面回復我們大家，這15個人裡面有哪些不在你的提報名單上，這樣可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內交上來，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情為什麼重要？因為原民會組織法怎麼規定的？原民會組織法規定要由主委提報給行政院院長任命。你今天解開大家的疑惑了，原來裡面有委員不是你主委提報的，等於是行政院院長跳過你，塞他自己想要的人，行政院院長可以幹這種事喔？這個事情嚴重喔！請你回去徹查裡面有哪些人不是你提報的，結果竟然是我們行政院院長任命的，記得喔！一個禮拜之內。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：你在國會殿堂說裡面有人不是你提報的。","我們來進一步看一下，這裡面的人有立委的助理、有立委的執行長，還有在幫民進黨、在一個特定的村當聯絡人的，充滿了一片綠油油、酬庸的色彩，還有參選落選的，怎麼會這麼好康啊？人是怎麼選的？怎麼會這麼好康啊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，原民會成立28年以來，本來就有這樣一個族群委員，一直都是這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：一直都是拿來酬庸的，一直都是拿來養樁腳的，是嗎？今天我不跟你談藍綠，國民黨執政幹這種事情我照樣批判；民進黨執政幹這種事情，主委你認同嗎？以主委的高度，你認同嗎？你認不認同？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也不認同啊！"],["黃委員國昌：你也不認同，好，回去好好檢討這個制度，你作為原民會的主委，你今天有勇氣在國會殿堂裡面拉出你的高度，現任的原民會主委也不認同我們原民會聘用委員給民進黨政府拿來這樣酬庸之用！你這句話講得好，有道德勇氣，我給你一個讚！這些人到底是怎麼選出來的，我接下來一定會往下追查，我一定會要行政院院長卓榮泰給大家一個交代。","時間的關係，雖然後面沒委員了，但我也不好意思耽誤所有的官員陪我在這邊繼續問你，徐委員、召委的時間我也要尊重，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","登記發言的委員除不在場者，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員高金素梅、呂玉玲、蘇清泉、丁學忠、邱鎮軍所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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這沒有問題啊"},{"start":134.974,"end":163.277,"text":"臺語本來大家都講臺語但是臺語是什麼的簡稱臺語是臺灣米蘭語的簡稱可是你今天是把臺灣米蘭語的簡稱之後然後你又在前面再加入臺灣兩個字變成是臺灣台語這樣就變成是臺語它就是一個專有名詞那專有名詞不就代表是說會讓大家就誤認為是說只有臺語代表整個臺灣上面2350萬人所講的語言那這樣是不是就無形當中就把我們的客語就把我們的原住民的語言給忽視了呢"},{"start":163.937,"end":193.101,"text":"而且更重要你剛有提到沒有這意思可是外界就會有這樣的狀況啊所以我們需要多加說明市長那我就請教你剛講的是說這個是我們共同使用語言的狀況我也都是用臺語啊但是我認知的臺語就是臺灣米蘭語然後就是韓國我們所使用的一個範圍嘛那如果要用臺灣台語請教今天有一個外國人來到臺灣他想要問欸你們現在講的語言是什麼那我請教臺灣台語的英文要怎麼辦"},{"start":194.453,"end":210.458,"text":"臺灣台語臺灣台語是的但如果說是你要怎麼解釋呢就台語是一個語言的名稱這個名稱就叫台語就像我們對很多任何一個物品你給它一個名稱以後它就是一個專有名詞"},{"start":211.26,"end":239.182,"text":"所以它現在還是變成是你會變成是它是英去翻這樣的意思你就是創一個新的詞是的 對不對我們就不用所謂的以前可能會用Taiwanese來代表台語可是在英文稱呼上面其實文化部有客尊一個希望能夠尊重國家語言所以我們在英文名稱上就很清楚的標示就是台語所以這樣子你就是在創另外一個新的名詞但這樣新的名詞是不是就讓外國人有可能誤會"},{"start":240.883,"end":249.488,"text":"臺灣上這塊土地上大家講的語言會沒有其他的語言來我再請教一下我們的客戶會主委主委剛聽這樣子的講法我想雖然你們今天上午都已經講過就互相尊重了但說實在話"},{"start":264.501,"end":289.694,"text":"因為我的選區不管是淡水、山芝也有很多的客家鄉親甚至之前新北市有差不多2萬的客家鄉親其實是從淡水這邊來做一個發跡的所以我們也想問如果說今天臺灣台語它這樣確立了那這樣子臺語就變成是一個專有名詞那會無形當中會讓其他的國際友人也會認為是說臺灣這塊土地上面好像沒有其他的語言存在"},{"start":290.645,"end":302.494,"text":"英語是這樣說的,就屬於維尼語言：主委你是要本席也帶上這個翻譯還是說：我其實是聽不懂客語的,不好意思用國語好不好,還是華語"},{"start":308.319,"end":328.416,"text":"包括客語、原住民語、臺語這個都是國家語言那現在這個書面上呢它是優先建議,它只是建議所以我們在客委會來說並沒有一定要使用這個或那個那就客家人的立場來說稱呼臺語或閩南語都叫做Holo法"},{"start":333.001,"end":347.797,"text":"所以我們是用我們的主體我們由我們的主體來說他稱他稱這個我現在講的是說文化部用這樣子的定義以你站在客委會主委的一個角度來講有沒有客家鄉親跟你反映"},{"start":348.197,"end":371.603,"text":"有 那客家鄉親跟你反映你怎麼做是 客家鄉親那個時候的反映我們建議說那我們再請文化部一起再來開國家語言的會議增加了三場的客語的會議 客家語言的會議所以在這個會議當中大家有充分的在討論當然 那文化部有接受你的建議嗎"},{"start":373.583,"end":392.81,"text":"應該是這麼說啦我又在這個階段其實我們是尊重每一個人的每一個族群的說法那這樣子才有可能展現出我們多元包容的這個特質這個也是台灣很美好很重要的一個特質因為不同嘛"},{"start":393.45,"end":411.857,"text":"主委就是因為本席尊重多元包容的特質也因此才會覺得說為什麼本來無疑是何處惹塵來突然間文化部要在今年我不知道是不是滿足某些人的政治意識形態這個你也不用回答啦這個你也不用幫忙文化部回答啦但我意思是說"},{"start":412.637,"end":433.268,"text":"不知道是否滿足某些人的特定政治意識形態： 也因此突然間要做這樣的一個改名的動作 變成是臺灣台語好像獨尊了之後反而造成我們其他語言的一個部分那當然 原住民委員會的主委 你有沒有反應我們的族人有沒有跟你講是說 如果臺灣台語這樣定下來的話好像會獨尊一方"},{"start":434.195,"end":458.621,"text":"我們是都尊重啦就是這次我們都尊重啦我不是說都尊重我知道你們今天已經大帽子扣下來我相信你們兩個委員會說實在話啦本身在中央部會也是比較弱勢的委員會啦所以你們也許也不敢有意見啦但我現在問的是你們的族人我現在給你個機會讓你在國會殿堂上幫你們族人講話"},{"start":460.588,"end":489.66,"text":"連這樣子都不敢幫族人講話還是表達你們族人的心聲族人聽到說要變台灣台語的時候都沒有任何意見族人的心聲是因為我們自己就稱自己是原住民跟我們就尊重台語他怎麼講就怎麼樣來尊重啊所以今天講台灣台語他可能喊瓜了就變成是好像台灣在台灣是講台語的那我們原住民的話反而變成是比較沒有被重視到了我們不會有這樣感覺的"},{"start":490.714,"end":515.939,"text":"就是原住民本來就是單獨的是一個原住民那尊重其他的族群啊?對,說實在話本席也有原住民的朋友也有原住民的親戚我覺得在國會殿堂上面還是要幫各族群為什麼要成立客委會為什麼要成立原住民委員會還是要為特定的委員會的人士來做發聲"},{"start":517.557,"end":537.318,"text":"不是說一個政治意識形態可以把我們台灣變成是一言堂如果說台灣真的變一言堂的話我覺得這樣子會非常可悲台灣的美、台灣的好就是多元、包容、文化、特色而不是政治意識形態掛帥把我們過去認知的全部都一筆抹殺謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:26:27 - 13:35:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155363","gazette":{"lineno":1249,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時26分）主席謝謝，是不是可以請文化部次長，還有客委會跟原民會的主委？"],["主席：請李次長、古主委及曾主委。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請教李次長，因為今天文化部次長表示臺灣台語沒有侵犯臺灣其他語言並存地位的意思，但看到教育部把閩南語語言認證變成臺灣台語認證，然後又看到監察委員要調查各大車站內台語廣播腔調不一致跟發音錯誤的問題，我們想要請教一下這代表什麼？代表現在臺灣台語只容許一種臺灣台語的發音存在嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：監察院的這個調查並不是文化部這邊去……我們也尊重監察院監察委員的職責，可是對文化部來講，我們沒有要推動所謂的單一腔調。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實各地方的腔調也是台語的優美之處，或者說是特色之處，像我的老家在南投，我聽到有一些長輩說台語的時候，我一聽就知道他應該就是從中部過來。問題在於保存台語文化的部分，現在把它正名變成是臺灣台語，到底有沒有尊重臺灣其他的語言，包括客語，包括原住民很多的語言？這也是大家會覺得奇怪的地方。"],["李次長靜慧：是，跟委員報告，語言名稱的部分，依照國際的慣例或者是國際組織來講，語言的名稱由使用該語言的人他們自稱為習慣。我們經過調查，使用台語的族群有85%的人慣用「台語」這個詞來自稱他們的語言，所以我們在建議的書面用語上就把這個名稱放下去，可是在口語上，不論是大家習慣用什麼樣的方式來自稱，這個我們都尊重。"],["洪委員孟楷：這沒有問題，本來大家都講台語，但是台語是什麼的簡稱？台語是臺灣閩南語的簡稱，可是你今天是把臺灣閩南語簡稱之後，然後你又在前面再加入「臺灣」兩個字，變成是「臺灣台語」，這樣變成台語就是一個專有名詞，專有名詞不就會讓大家誤認為只有台語代表整個臺灣2,350萬人所講的語言？這樣是不是在無形當中就把我們的客語、把我們的原住民語言給忽視了呢？而且更重要的是你剛剛有提到……"],["李次長靜慧：我們沒有這個意思……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們沒有這個意思，可是外界就會有這樣的狀況啊！"],["李次長靜慧：所以我們需要多加說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，那我就請教，你剛剛講的是說這個是我們共同使用語言的狀況，我也都是用台語，但是我認知的台語就是臺灣閩南語，就是涵括我們所使用的範圍。如果要用臺灣台語，今天有一個外國人來到臺灣，他想要問你們現在講的語言是什麼，那我請教臺灣台語的英文要怎麼翻？"],["李次長靜慧：Taiwan Tâi-gí。"],["洪委員孟楷：Taiwan Tâi-gí？"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但如果說是……你要怎麼解釋呢？"],["李次長靜慧：Tâi-gí是一個語言的名稱，這個名稱就叫Tâi-gí，就像我們對任何的物品，你給它一個名稱以後，它就是一個專有名詞。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在你會變成用音去翻這樣的意思？"],["李次長靜慧：就直接稱為Tâi-gí。"],["洪委員孟楷：也就是創一個新的詞，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：是的，我們就不用以前所謂的……以前可能會用Taiwanese來代表Tâi-gí，可是在英文稱呼上面，其實文化部希望能夠尊重大家的語言，所以我們在英文名稱上就很清楚的標示就是Tâi-gí，我們不會用Taiwanese來代替。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子你就是在創另外一個新的名詞，但是這樣一個新的名詞，是不是就讓外國人有可能誤會在我們臺灣這塊土地上面大家講的語言沒有其他的語言？"],["李次長靜慧：不會啊，因為Tâi-gí這個詞就只是一個發音……"],["洪委員孟楷：我再請教一下客委會主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛聽這樣子的講法，雖然你們今天上午都已經講過就是互相尊重，但說實在話，我還是……因為我的選區不管是淡水、三芝，也有很多的客家鄉親，甚至之前新北市有差不多兩萬的客家鄉親其實是從淡水這邊發跡的，所以我們也想問如果今天臺灣台語這樣確立了，這樣子台語就變成一個專有名詞，無形當中其他國際友人也會認為臺灣這塊土地上面好像沒有其他的語言存在。"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該是這樣說啦，所有的語言包括客語……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你是要本席也戴上翻譯機嗎？我其實是聽不懂客語的，不好意思。"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以嗎？"],["主席：用國語好不好？用華語。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，包括客語、原住民語、台語都是國家語言，現在這個書面上它是優先建議，它只是建議，所以在客委會來說，並沒有一定要使用這個或那個，就客家人的立場來說，稱呼台語或閩南語都叫做Holo話，所以我們是用我們的主體、我們由我們的主體來說他稱……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我現在講的是文化部用這樣子的定義，以你站在客委會主委的角度來講，有沒有客家鄉親跟你反映？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：客家鄉親跟你反映，你怎麼做？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對於客家鄉親那個時候反映，我們建議請文化部再一起來開國家語言的會議，增加了三場客家語言的會議，在這個會議當中大家有再充分的討論，當然……"],["洪委員孟楷：那文化部有接受你的建議嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該是這麼說，我覺得在這個階段，其實我們是尊重每一個族群的說法，這樣子才有可能展現出我們多元包容的特質，這個也是臺灣很美好、很重要的特質，因為不同嘛，我們尊重差異。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，就是因為本席尊重多元包容的特質，也因此才會覺得為什麼本來無一事、何處惹塵埃？突然間文化部要在今年這麼做，我不知道是不是為了滿足某些人的政治意識形態？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想應該不是啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：這個你也不用回答啦，這個你也不用幫忙文化部回答，我的意思是說，不知道是不是為了滿足某些人特定的政治意識形態，因此突然間要做這樣一個改名的動作，變成臺灣台語，好像獨尊了之後，反而造成其他語言的……","請問原住民族委員會主委有沒有反映？我們的族人有沒有跟你說如果臺灣台語這樣定下來的話，好像會獨尊一方？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們是都尊重啦，這件事我們都尊重。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是說都尊重，我知道今天大帽子已經扣下來，我相信你們兩個委員會……說實在話，本身在中央部會也是比較弱勢的委員會，所以你們也許也不敢有意見，但我現在問的是你們的族人，我現在給你一個機會，讓你在國會殿堂上幫你們的族人講話，連這樣子都不敢幫族人講話或是表達你們族人的心聲嗎？族人聽到說要變臺灣台語的時候都沒有任何意見？"],["曾主任委員智勇：族人的心聲是……因為我們自己就稱自己是原住民，我們就尊重台語他怎麼講就怎麼樣來尊重啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以今天講臺灣台語，可能就變成好像在臺灣是講台語的，原住民的話反而變成比較沒有被重視到。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們不會有這種感覺，原住民本來就是單獨的原住民，要尊重其他的族群啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，說實在話，本席也有原住民的朋友，也有原住民的親戚，我覺得在國會殿堂上面，還是要幫各族群……為什麼要成立客委會？為什麼要成立原住民族委員會？還是要為特定委員會的人士來發聲，不是說一個 政治意識形態可以把我們臺灣變成一言堂。如果臺灣真的變成一言堂的話，我覺得這樣子會非常可悲。臺灣的美、臺灣的好，就是多元包容文化特色，而不是政治意識形態掛帥，把我們過去認知的全部都一筆抹煞，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員、邱鎮軍委員，邱鎮軍委員不在。請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","羅智強","涂權吉","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","黃國昌","呂玉玲","蘇清泉","丁學忠","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概\n況，並備質詢；二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育\n部，就「臺灣台語」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正\n「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:09:22","end_time":"2024-10-09T13:26:04+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155362","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請袁明慧主委請曾主委"},{"start":9.676,"end":35.137,"text":"委員好主委您好您是我過去的長官那我對您算是很熟悉了解我今天其實本來是要來講國家語言發展中心的設置那我等一下再問我在辦公室我發現今天這一場雖然園民會不是主場但是不分園和立委都還是很關注禁法補償的議題"},{"start":36.678,"end":65.691,"text":"那其實我在院會總質詢大概 原民立委也都關心這一題那我不是不關心而是我覺得我過去三年前就開始質詢這個議題那很感謝大家的一個合作讓這樣的一個法案能夠修正通過那我覺得這一案就結束了可是我很憂心因為我們很多最近以來重要的原住民議題消失了"},{"start":66.551,"end":87.188,"text":"大家不斷的關注我認為這個假議題所以我很希望我們原民會能夠講清楚那這對我來講明明也沒有違法明明也發得出來但是為什麼會搞得大家這樣會聲會影、沸沸揚揚、鬼影重重"},{"start":88.291,"end":106.66,"text":"我就搞不清楚那上次主委您很棒在大家吵得沸沸揚揚的時候您有用你個人的臉書來跟大家做保證所以呢聲音就擬平了一些但是呢看起來大家還是繼續炒作"},{"start":107.961,"end":128.605,"text":"我是希望原民會能夠用公文一次說清楚：也不要讓地方的這些鄉鎮長不斷的來問像我自己我都覺得我好可憐我這幾個月到全國參加各種活動鄉運也好、豐年祭也好、收穫祭也好"},{"start":129.96,"end":142.109,"text":"大家都要我被迫 要我表態耶我也很乾脆啊 我都有錄影存證啊他們問我都說 保證如果明年9月以後發不出來 少一毛錢 吳立華不選了主委 您懂得我的決心嗎對我來講 我們來看嘛這個我都三年前就開始質詢啦經法補償使用重發基金"},{"start":158.564,"end":183.43,"text":"當然合法我過去有問過三年前就問過為什麼合法因為重發基金的收支保管及運用辦法寫得很清楚限制原住民族利用原住民族土地回饋或補償支出這個法條是什麼時候修正出來的馬英九時代96年11月30因為這是辦法行政院修正通過"},{"start":185.151,"end":210,"text":"我們再來看一下到底合不合法這個公文我也問過我三年前就問過這個是主計總署發給原民會的公文寫得很清楚主計總署說循例維持公務預算及原民基金各辦負擔的方式辦理該基金如確有財務不敷在與協處"},{"start":211.995,"end":237.949,"text":"這個也是主計總署當時要開始發放禁法補償告訴你們的所以我就不理解這麼簡單一分鐘可以講完的事情難道不能發公文給大家嗎我倒是很想知道因為資料都在你們那邊但是我始終不敢質詢問這些問題因為我怕失焦我們都心知肚明"},{"start":239.417,"end":258.987,"text":"五點二萬筆我們的這些可憐的普羅大眾他只有零點二分有的人只有一公頃他們領多少錢但是你應該很清楚我做過原民處長接你的位置我看過有一個人是領一百二十二公頃欸而且我去查過不是原住民借名登記欸"},{"start":268.68,"end":284.352,"text":"這種事情我們原民會應該要擔負起來所以我希望說我就講到這裡我希望這個趕快擬平不要用那些亂七八糟的說法最難抗拒的說法就是兩分真八分假很多人善用話術也不是全部謊話"},{"start":297.13,"end":310.362,"text":"但是這種三分真七分假我們到底要怎麼樣去拆穿很麻煩但是我始終相信邪不勝正好嗎那我要關心一下那個文化部"},{"start":316.748,"end":340.658,"text":"文化部是我們的次長次長您好再給一分鐘就好因為我知道國家語言發展中心設置條例已經在6月就是行政院通過已經送立法院了雖然還沒有排審但是我有一些問題想要關心我第一個想要關心的就是按照這個設置條例的條文它有它的任務業務範圍"},{"start":342.899,"end":358.393,"text":"我們原民會我們之前也已經有一個原住民族語言研究發展基金會的設置條例我們也有它的業務範圍、它的任務那對照起來,講一句實在話,跌床駕屋啦所以我就是想關心第一個問題"},{"start":360.89,"end":379.26,"text":"這種疊墻家屋的情形．未來兩個單位要怎麼樣的來合作這邊跟委員做說明所以如果委員可以再回到上一頁的話我們可以清楚的看到這樣在語言的語料、史料收集這一部分我們有特別強調以後語發中心做的是跨語言"},{"start":380.521,"end":392.844,"text":"而不是單一語言：如果是單一語言：像原住民的42種語言的話：它仍然屬於原住民語言研究發展基金會去處理：可是這個語發中心會處理的：比如說整個漢語系統：或是南島語系系統：它是用一個跨語言的方式去處理它那像在跟這邊有提到說：所謂的推廣使用的時候：我們在語發中心的提出前是受託辦理：因為時間的關係：所以我順著要講的就是說"},{"start":411.109,"end":429.217,"text":"經費因為我希望未來中心的經費分配上會不會因為有原語會然後你們會減少比例因為我剛剛聽我們的次長您說的時候感覺上你們是按照語言別分開嘛那未來在經費配比上"},{"start":432.459,"end":446.454,"text":"這個中心的經費應該跟各個客委會或原民會原本的經費沒有干涉會另外獨立編列經費也會另外獨立分配給他們就由這個中心來執行啊這個就是我擔心的啊"},{"start":448.039,"end":470.613,"text":"又是跌床駕屋那意思就是說在我們文化部設置的國家語言發展中心是獨立又要一組原住民的人才在裡面嗎對 所以這個部分我們在月底的語發大會裡面就希望能夠進一步討論這個就是我要先提醒的我不希望因為有了原語會文化部將來"},{"start":472.414,"end":493.84,"text":"會覺得反正原民會你們有你們的原語會我們的任務是分開的按照語言別的你們有你們的獨立的經費我們的經費是獨立的除非你也聘了一組原住民的語言專家進到我們的國家語言設置中心次長您了解我的意思嗎那最後第三個我關切的就是說我們只有看到研究典藏"},{"start":496.002,"end":524.201,"text":"任務沒有推廣發展但是語言附贈跟傳承才是我們設置這個中心的最重要任務所以我覺得我沒有看到推廣發展的部分都是在典藏典藏研究所以我希望目前草案看不到這樣相關的業務資訊那我希望說我們應該要加強語言環境的友善至少我舉一個簡單的例子就是今年有將近兩萬人去"},{"start":525.862,"end":540.42,"text":"自己回復族名但是無論去外交部的你會看到雖然我的身份證有族語跟我的那個並列但是外交部就是堅持用漢語拼音只保留他的漢名或者我們到戶政事務所"},{"start":541.101,"end":559.828,"text":"他的表單還是堅持只留他的漢字像這個都是語言發展設置中心應該要去關切觸及的一個範圍所以我在這個地方特別做這樣的提醒希望文化部在我們審查的時候一定要堅持 同意嗎好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:16:42 - 13:26:04","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155362","gazette":{"lineno":1222,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時16分）謝謝主席，有請原民會主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委您好，您是我過去的長官，我對您算是很熟悉、瞭解，我今天本來是要講國家語言發展中心的設置，那我等一下再問。","我在辦公室發現，今天這一場雖然原民會不是主場，但不分原、漢立委都還是很關注禁伐補償的議題，其實我在院會總質詢，原民立委也都關心這一題，我不是不關心，而是我3年前就開始質詢這個議題，很感謝大家的合作，讓這樣的法案能夠修正通過，我覺得這一案就結束了。可是我很憂心，因為最近很多重要的原住民議題消失了，大家不斷的關注我認為的這個假議題，所以我很希望原民會能夠講清楚，對我來講明明沒有違法，明明也發得出來，但是為什麼會搞得大家這樣繪聲繪影、沸沸揚揚、鬼影幢幢，我就搞不清楚。","上次主委很棒，在大家吵得沸沸揚揚的時候，您有用你個人的臉書來跟大家保證，所以聲音就弭平了一些，但看起來大家還是繼續炒作，我希望原民會能夠用公文一次說清楚，不要讓一些地方的鄉鎮首長不斷的來問。我都覺得我自己好可憐，我這幾個月到全國參加各種活動，鄉運也好、豐年祭也好、收穫祭也好，大家都要我表態，我也很乾脆，我都有錄影存證，他們問我，我都說：保證，如果明年9月以後發不出來，少一毛錢，伍麗華不選了。主委，您懂得我的決心嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：我要關心一下文化部，次長您好。請主席再給1分鐘就好。我知道國家語言發展中心設置條例行政院已經在6月通過，目前已經送立法院了，雖然還沒有排審，但是我有一些問題想要關心。我第一個想要關心的是，按照這個設置條例的條文，它有它的任務及業務範圍，而原民會之前已經有一個原住民族語言研究發展基金會設置條例，它也有它的業務範圍、它的任務，對照起來，講一句實在話就是疊床架屋，所以我就是想關心第一個問題，這種疊床架屋的情形，未來兩個單位要怎麼樣來合作？"],["李次長靜慧：這邊跟委員說明，如果委員可以再回到上一頁的話，我們可以清楚的看到在語言的語料、史料蒐集這一部分，我們有特別強調以後語發中心做的是跨語言，而不是單一語言。如果是單一語言，像原住民的42種語言的話，它仍然屬於原住民語言研究發展基金會去處理，可是這個語發中心會處理的，譬如說整個漢語系統，或是南島語系系統，它是用一個跨語言的方式去處理。像這邊有提到所謂的推廣使用的時候，語發中心基金會是受託辦理，並不是主動辦理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，因為時間的關係，我順著要講的就是經費，我擔心未來中心的經費分配上會不會因為有原語會，然後你們會減少比例？因為我剛剛聽次長說的時候，感覺上你們是按照語言別分開，未來在經費配比上，會對我們原語……"],["李次長靜慧：這個中心的經費應該跟客委會或原民會原本的經費沒有干涉，會另外獨立編列經費。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：也會另外獨立分配給他們？"],["李次長靜慧：就由這個中心來執行啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個就是我擔心的啊！又是疊床架屋，那意思就是說在文化部設置的國家語言發展中心是獨立又要一組原住民的人才在裡面嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：針對這個部分，我們在月底的語發大會裡面希望能夠進一步討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個就是我要先提醒的，我不希望因為有了原語會，文化部將來會覺得反正原民會有你們的原語會，我們的任務是分開的，按照語言別，你們有你們獨立的經費，我們的經費是獨立的，除非你也聘了一組原住民的語言專家進到我們的國家語言設置中心。次長，您了解我的意思嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後第三個我關切的是，我們只有看到研究、典藏的任務，卻沒有推廣、發展。其實語言復振跟傳承才是我們設置這個中心最重要的任務，但是我覺得我沒有看到推廣、發展的部分，都是在典藏、研究。目前草案看不到這樣相關的業務資訊，我認為我們應該要加強語言環境的友善。我舉一個簡單的例子，今年有將近兩萬人去回復自己的族名，去外交部你會看到雖然我的身分證有族語跟我的漢名並列，外交部就是堅持用漢語拼音，只保留他的漢名；或者我們到戶政事務所，它的表單還是堅持只留他的漢字。像這個都是語言發展設置中心應該要去關切、觸及的範圍，所以我在這裡特別做這樣的提醒，希望文化部在我們審查的時候一定要堅持，同意嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：了解，謝謝委員的指導。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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3.126,"end":104.706,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":124.352,"end":125.153,"text":"立法院議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":141.443,"end":159.024,"text":"主委,如果我們看到我們剛才提到的那些浪漫台三線明年拖延到的錢甚至如常態性有補助,我們平常沒有我們要去煎炮、沉淀、再去沖藥、供應的文化,有法律變成常態性的經費補助的來源嗎?"},{"start":161.259,"end":163.26,"text":"目前那些都有支持但是不勞煩了那裡的委員都在整齊緊批當然希望一度一候但是我們緊批還是有限就提議在議宣底部我們會請人來支持提防傑勤法庭"},{"start":183.185,"end":189.15,"text":"所以要拜託主委,我們客家文化,因為行業運營在鄉鎮地盤,要由街頭的軟體、軟體的建設的部分放到大廟"},{"start":198.776,"end":200.977,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":215.825,"end":228.709,"text":"媒體的判斷去作證．但若是老人家．若是沒有方便．文化部再次提訪．訪問客家的節目．由法律委員會正式說．我們屏東北的客家鄉鎮．未來鄉鎮．可由每年有一個常態性的．法律委員會去判斷．我們跟地方委員會討論．可運用的信信．可以陸續提起的事項表現．可以我們討論進行．"},{"start":246.199,"end":272.535,"text":"因為美麗鄉鎮有美麗鄉鎮牧群的特色尤其我們要在國土服務方面才能講、環境才能但是我們用在地藝的特色包含家族有小家古厝安好環境用以做藝術文化的巡演甚至鼓勵藝術學生鼓勵其他地方做產業的發展、文化的發展"},{"start":273.115,"end":277.011,"text":"亦到我們客戶會有沒有進一步的措施開來,提出要做什麼"},{"start":278.475,"end":285.602,"text":"由我們接下来,我會針對考試的提名的量,包括提到委員說的服務,是否有人願意以六一來做服務的贊助希望,也要說有人希望提供演出表演等等,我會來支持"},{"start":304.238,"end":305.78,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":320.195,"end":328.997,"text":"最後我希望臺灣國土委員會講到學法的推廣問題：因為若是看到國土學生準備參加課語檢定：檢定是一個過程：檢定的不標講學法並不標講：將這部分的課文用於從日常生活：從學校端用於推廣客家的語言：讓它更普遍性"},{"start":350.309,"end":372.127,"text":"議員說到重點,通過以後沒人會說,所以我們現在合理化的政策,就是要將繁肌打造出來,本土意、有土地房作為私用的營業,包括根本意,像我們的特選,我們也要用合法本土的可能性,除了說其實從那裡重合在其他地方,也要重合在哪裡,這是我們要打造出來的"},{"start":375.325,"end":377.287,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:09:43 - 13:16:23","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155361","gazette":{"lineno":1194,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（13時9分）謝謝主席，有請客委會古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委好。很高興我們都是客家的子弟，尤其我知道主委做過屏東、高雄、臺南的主委，對南部非常瞭解，在這個過程中，過去客委會在北部辦桐花祭辦得非常好，帶動北部的觀光旅遊和文化發展，也幫助很多；南部，尤其六堆夜合花、盤花，文化底蘊非常好，但是比較沒看到客委會針對這部分大力推廣。我看到南北客家人、客家文化不對等的情形，未來客委會針對我們六堆有什麼想法，怎麼做文化保存還有產業發展？請主委來回答一下。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝徐委員。沒錯，北部過去這幾年非常熱鬧，有「浪漫台三線」等等，我們客委會接下來在每一個客家區域要開始打造，也包括六堆，對於委員所說的六堆接下來要怎麼做，我們會針對幾個方向，一個是硬體，在這個環境裡面，六堆的鄉親如果需要什麼樣的硬體服務，這個部分我們會來支持；再來是軟體，現在要跟別人說六堆是什麼、它的歷史是什麼，要透過影視、活動、戲劇等語言教育來全面提高六堆的能見度，就是要讓大家看得到。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，因為我們看到……就像你說的「浪漫台三線」，每年花這麼多的錢，甚至有常態性的補助，我們屏東過年時也有尖炮城這個很重要的文化，這有辦法變成我們常態性經費補助的來源嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前客委會都有支持……"],["徐委員富癸：但是不夠啦。"],["古主任委員秀妃：很多委員都有來爭取經費，我們當然希望能越多越好，但是我們的經費還是有限，我們在預算內會儘量支持地方的節慶活動。"],["徐委員富癸：所以要拜託主委，我們客家文化要怎麼走進鄉鎮，要有很多的硬體和軟體建設，要一起來努力。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["徐委員富癸：現在有很多客家藝文巡演團體想要出去表演，但現在客委會可能在安排上沒有這麼細緻，屏東有8個客家鄉鎮，有時候活動辦在內埔、竹田，但是有些老人家因為不方便，沒辦法去那裡看客家節目。有沒有辦法爭取到屏東8個客家鄉鎮，每個鄉鎮都可以在每年辦理一個常態性的活動？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們來和地方討論看看要怎麼推動六堆地區的戲劇表演，我們可以來討論和進行。"],["徐委員富癸：因為每個鄉鎮有每個鄉鎮不一樣的特色，尤其現在我們有很多非常漂亮的伙房，環境非常好，但是要怎麼用我們在地的特色？包含佳冬有蕭家古厝這麼好的環境，怎麼來做這些文化的巡演，甚至鼓勵年輕人回來自己的地方做產業發展、文化發展？客委會有沒有什麼進一步的措施可以幫助這些年輕人？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們接下來會針對年輕人在每一個領域，包括剛才委員說的伙房，看是不是有人願意去做伙房的整修，或是有人希望投入戲劇的演出、表演等等，這些我們會來支持。"],["徐委員富癸：也拜託主委跟我們縣政府客務處，也是你的娘家一起來配合一下，盤點看看有什麼適合的地方來做這些處理。","主席再借我30秒。剛才有很多委員提到客家話推廣的問題，我看到很多年輕人準備參加客語檢定，但是檢定是一個過程，檢定之後，平常也都不會說客家話，針對這個部分，客委會要怎麼從日常生活、學校端來推廣客家語言，讓它更有普遍性？"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員說到重點，檢定通過以後不一定會說，所以現在客委會的政策就是要把環境打造出來，讓更多人有更多地方可以使用這個語言，包括今天像這樣的答詢，我們也是用客語，讓大家看到、知道在很多場合是可以用得到的，而這個場合是什麼呢？就是我們要打造出來的。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其在家裡要開始跟老人家說客語，在學校要跟同學一起說，出社會也一樣，要跟客家人一起說客家話，才可以繼續讓這個語言專長得以發揮。","謝謝主委，針對屏東六堆的建設，要麻煩主委大力來幫忙。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝徐委員。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","接下來請丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員，丁學忠委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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和尊重各族群對語言的自稱"},{"start":27.259,"end":52.436,"text":"那針對這部分他說他們有針對國人對語言的稱呼做了調查才把各種國家的語言定為現在公布的名稱那我想請教主委那我們客委會有沒有針對客家族群做調查詢問他們是否認為閩南語佔了臺語這個名稱之後有沒有讓他覺得自己被排除被擠壓"},{"start":53.867,"end":61.272,"text":"我想這樣在名稱的部分在國土每天的名錄、檔案、國土的意見無窮用就不僅好路出窮好路出窮也不是鐵板一塊的地方也有無窮用的意見客家出窮什麼窮用的地方有無窮用的意見所以在這樣立場之下我們是尊重所有人對於講法做法其實在合理費內講"},{"start":82.504,"end":90.205,"text":"因爲要不適合或堅持一定要用法：所以我們都建議用法：建議用法由我們客家客家委員會來聽說：我可以講好老法：不是講一些其他語言：所以在名稱當中,我們可以選擇選擇比如說,剛才說的臺灣台語,臺灣的明南語、好老法"},{"start":110.469,"end":116.916,"text":"有審問過嗎?有調查過嗎?自己的調查,我們沒有做文件調查,沒有啦但是我們在那裏,在該座的名錄上,該座的意見會反映出來那用在董事長講言反彈董事長嗎?在,我也是在所以我可以說"},{"start":129.77,"end":149.096,"text":"因為我們都聽到很多基層的客家鄉親的聲音他們很擔心客語的傳承那行政院跟文化部這樣子的面面他們一直跟我們反映包含其實原住民也是一樣他說認為這個就是欺負弱勢對於弱勢的客家人、原住民"},{"start":149.796,"end":172.97,"text":"這一部分 他們認為 如果這樣子去命名久而久之﹐會認為臺澎金馬的主流語言就是臺灣台語所以 要拜託我們客委會主委 要拜託拿出客家精神、人間精神要為我們 你是我們客委會的主委 你要為客家族群發聲我們今天不是打壓"},{"start":174.071,"end":185.879,"text":"任何一個族群．不是打壓任何一個語言．但是我們是希望能夠堅持國家語言．各族群的平等平權．您會發出什麼動盪嗎?阿雄,沒有錯．就是不關於喀羅法、喀法．也許原住民的法．各種的法．就在臺灣的國家語言．也許是沒有問題的．所以也許平等．才可以在國家語言發出法律說．"},{"start":203.231,"end":232.168,"text":"以最主要的目的所以在這邊拜託因為你是我們客委會的主委我希望我們客委會發展客家這個母語是非常重要的一環那如果用這個臺灣台語居然那麼多的客家鄉親有這種疑慮那我們客委會主委是我們客家鄉親的大家長你應該站在客家鄉親的立場要為客家鄉親來發聲所以這部分希望"},{"start":232.648,"end":245.595,"text":"我們客家委員會主委一定要拿出港將的精神．針對我們客家族群的權益．一定要站出來為大家發聲．我希望所有的意見．我希望會準確地了結．他要撇分．我們最佳的方法．請我們那個．文化部李次長．好,請李次長"},{"start":258.038,"end":278.004,"text":"理事長我剛剛聽我們楊崇英委員詢問到所以針對你說閩南語改臺灣台語你說其實你們行政單位也知道這樣做基本上會造成傷害對不對因為我剛剛有聽到我不是這樣我是說如果委員"},{"start":278.844,"end":302.009,"text":"各界有這樣的反應有鄉親覺得這個命名有受到傷害的時候作為行政單位我們有那個責任要多做說明多做溝通那其實事實上今天會開這個會議其實就是因為很多我們的客家鄉親、原民一些比較弱勢的族群他們就提出那麼大的反彈所以今天才會針對這個會議來做討論"},{"start":305.79,"end":332.241,"text":"我們是認為基本上現在以現行來講並沒有造成什麼樣的問題我不知道為什麼我們現在我們文化部要去操作這個意識形態要去撕裂族群破壞我們彼此之間的團結現在一直以來大家都很和諧我不知道我們文化部這樣做到底有什麼意義還是文化部找不到更有意義的事情來做嗎"},{"start":332.861,"end":359.048,"text":"市長跟委員報告當然也是臺語團體臺語鄉親不斷地希望我們要在名稱上面給予臺語一個正式地位所以我們才去訂定所謂的書面建議用語那我問你你說因為堅持用臺灣台語把閩南話改成臺灣台語是因為你們調查結果的多數尊重使用者自稱對不對是的"},{"start":359.508,"end":374.978,"text":"好 那我們同一個調查報告我們也看到那你們在調查國語之後講國語他們說稱為國語是使用者最多他們也認為國語是他們覺得最好的名稱那為什麼你們要把國語改成華語"},{"start":376.525,"end":387.299,"text":"跟委員報告我們並沒有去變更國語或華語這個名詞不是你說閩南語改成臺灣台語是因為尊重使用者自稱嘛那我看到你們調查報告他們說稱為國語也是他們覺得最多最好為什麼你這個要改成華語"},{"start":393.146,"end":415.555,"text":"所以我們沒有改成華語這個詞我們沒有任何的公文去要求行政單位將國語改成華語沒有還有好那針對福州話、閩東話、閩北話他們也說比講馬族語還多也就是說稱馬族語是少的可是為什麼你們又建議要把它改成馬族語"},{"start":416.928,"end":444.02,"text":"這個部分是跟連江縣政府有做了一個溝通我們請連江縣政府告訴我們他們希望用什麼樣的語言來做自稱那你剛剛又說尊重尊重多數使用者認為尊重哪一個名稱是最好你說閩南語是因為說他用臺灣台語所以說他們說使用者自稱使用最多那一樣國語最多你要用華語那說福州話、閩東話、閩北話"},{"start":446.421,"end":465.172,"text":"講說用這個來代表性的又最多你又把它改成馬族語所以我們是希望不要多重標準不要為了想做的事情為了自己圓一個謊去定一個標準說因為是這樣那別的你又不用這個標準同樣的事情不同的標準"},{"start":466.112,"end":481.384,"text":"所以我們在這邊真的是希望 文化部找一些有意義的事情來做不要一直操作意識形態 撕裂族群 破壞團結現在現行大家都非常和諧 整個族群都相安無事"},{"start":482.004,"end":500.42,"text":"為什麼要去造成族群的對立造成台灣民眾彼此之間為了這個語言的去爭鬥我覺得希望文化部針對這部分審慎評估來仔細來考量我們真的希望族群國家語言平等平權拜託拜託好 謝謝委員的指導 謝謝好 謝謝圖群級委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:00:51 - 13:09:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155360","gazette":{"lineno":1154,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時）謝謝主席，麻煩請古主委。"],["主席：好，古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：主委，我請問你，針對閩南語改為臺灣台語，文化部說書面用語的命名考量是要兼顧，不想排除在臺灣語言之外，尊重各族群對語言的自稱。他說他們針對國人對語言的稱呼做了調查，才把各種國家語言訂為現在公布的名稱。","我想請教主委，客委會有沒有針對客家族群調查，詢問他們閩南語占了「台語」這個名稱之後，有沒有讓他們覺得自己被排除、被擠壓？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想這個名稱在很多媒體或是網路上有很多不一樣的意見，不單是Holo族群，Holo族群也不是鐵板一塊，他們裡面也有不一樣的意見，客家族群中也一樣有不一樣的意見，在這樣的立場底下，我們尊重所有的人對於這樣的說法、做法。站在客委會的立場，因為這不是唯一，或是堅持一定要用什麼，所以我們都是採取建議用法，建議的用法由我們客委會來訂定，講的是Holo話，而不是其他的語言，在名稱上我們可以選擇，比如說剛才說的臺灣台語、台語、臺灣的閩南語、Holo話這樣。"],["涂委員權吉：我是說，你們有問過嗎？你們有調查過嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：關於實際的調查，我們沒有做問卷調查，但我知道網路上有很多的意見反映。"],["涂委員權吉：這樣你就知道有很多客家人反彈了吧？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我知道、我知道。"],["涂委員權吉：你知道嘛。因為我聽到很多基層客家鄉親的聲音，他們很擔心客語的傳承，行政院跟文化部這樣的命名，他們一直跟我們反應，其實原住民也是一樣，他們認為這就是欺負弱勢，對於弱勢的客家人、原住民，如果這樣命名，久而久之會認為臺、澎、金、馬的主流語言就是「臺灣台語」。所以我也要拜託客委會主委，拜託你拿出客家精神、硬頸精神，你要為我們發聲，你是客委會的主委，你要為客家族群發聲。我們今天不是打壓任何一個族群、不是打壓任何一個語言，但我們希望能夠堅持國家語言，各族群的平等、平權，你有辦法做到嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想沒有錯，不管是Holo語、客語或是原住民語，各種語言都是臺灣的國家語言，這是沒問題的。關於平等，站在國家語言發展法來說，是它最主要的目的……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我在這邊拜託你，因為你是客委會的主委，客委會發展客家母語是非常重要的一環。"],["古主任委員秀妃：同意、同意。"],["涂委員權吉：如果用「臺灣台語」，居然有那麼多的客家鄉親有疑慮，客委會主委是客家鄉親的大家長，你應該站在客家鄉親的立場，要為客家鄉親發聲，希望客委會主委一定要拿出硬頸精神，針對客家族群的權益，一定要站出來為大家發聲，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：所有的意見我都會尊重並瞭解，這部分我們會以最大的開放度……"],["涂委員權吉：好，請文化部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：李次長，我剛剛有聽到楊瓊瓔委員的詢問，針對你說閩南語改為臺灣台語，你說其實行政單位也知道這樣做會造成傷害，對不對？因為我剛剛有聽到……"],["李次長靜慧：我不是這樣說，我是說，如果委員、各界有這樣反映，有鄉親覺得因為這個命名有受到傷害的時候，作為行政單位，我們有責任要多說明、多溝通。"],["涂委員權吉：好，事實上今天會開這個會議就是因為很多客家鄉親、原民等一些比較弱勢的族群提出那麼大的反彈，今天的會議才會針對這個來討論，基本上我們認為現行來講並沒有造成什麼樣的問題，我不知道為什麼現在文化部要去操作意識形態、要去撕裂族群，破壞我們彼此之間的團結？一直以來，大家都很和諧，我不知道文化部這樣做到底有什麼意義？還是文化部找不到更有意義的事情來做嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：不是這樣，跟委員報告，台語團體、台語鄉親不斷希望我們要在名稱上給予台語一個正式的地位，所以我們才去訂定所謂的書面建議用語。"],["涂委員權吉：好，那我問你，你堅持用「臺灣台語」，把閩南話改成臺灣台語，是因為你們調查的結果多數尊重使用者自稱，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我們在同一個調查報告也看到，你們調查國語之後，他們說稱為「國語」是使用者最多，也認為「國語」是他們覺得最好的名稱，那為什麼你們要把「國語」改成「華語」？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，我們並沒有變更「國語」或「華語」這個名詞……"],["涂委員權吉：不是，你說閩南語改成臺灣台語是因為尊重使用者自稱，我看到你們的調查報告，稱為「國語」也是他們覺得最多、最好的，為什麼你們要改成「華語」？"],["李次長靜慧：我們沒有改成「華語」這個詞，也沒有任何公文要求行政單位將「國語」改成「華語」，沒有。"],["涂委員權吉：好。針對「福州話」、「閩東話」、「閩北話」，他們也講得比「馬祖語」還多，也就是稱「馬祖語」是少的，可是為什麼你們又建議要把它改成「馬祖語」？"],["李次長靜慧：這部分跟連江縣政府做過溝通，我們請連江縣政府告訴我們，他們希望用什麼樣的語言來做自稱。"],["涂委員權吉：那你剛剛又說尊重多數使用者認為哪一個名稱最好，你說閩南語稱臺灣台語是因為使用者自稱、使用最多，那一樣「國語」也最多，你卻要用「華語」，那「福州話」、「閩東話」、「閩北話」的代表性最多，你又把它改成「馬祖語」。","我們希望不要多重標準，不要為了想做的事情，為了自己圓一個謊、訂一個標準，說因為是這樣才……那別的又不用這個標準；同樣的事情卻有不同的標準。"],["李次長靜慧：沒有。"],["涂委員權吉：我們真的希望文化部找一些有意義的事情來做，不要一直操作意識形態、撕裂族群、破壞團結，現在大家都非常和諧，整個族群都相安無事，為什麼要造成族群的對立，造成臺灣民眾彼此之間為了語言而去爭鬥？希望文化部針對這部分審慎評估、仔細考量。"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["涂委員權吉：我們真的希望族群、國家語言平等、平權，拜託、拜託。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員。","接下來請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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你有沒有去過廈門?沒有 抱歉對嘛 我去過真的 就是那網友講的 你們都覺得我在台灣嗎?會有這種時空感 你知道嗎?因為他的閩南語跟台灣的閩南語是同源的啊"},{"start":138.417,"end":162.646,"text":"應該這樣說,如果是一個比較善於常用臺語的人員來講,到了廈門去應該還是可以聽得出來廈門話跟臺語之間的差距。你一樣跟我講口音當然,我跟你講宜蘭跟這個,跟那個高雄口音就不一樣啊,當然口音有些微差距啊,你不能用這口音的些微差距跟我講就是說,沒有關係啦,我覺得,次長,我現在請教你下一個問題啊,啊中國人怎麼可以唱台語歌?"},{"start":165.235,"end":190.564,"text":"這個由中國他們來決定啊你會不會覺得被冒犯啊我沒有被覺得如果廈門人唱閩南語歌你會不會覺得被冒犯啊當然不會嘛你對於閩南的一些民眾他講閩南語跟台灣現在我們用的閩南語就是同源嘛那第三個我要問哈馬來西亞的朋友也會說所謂的臺語你會壓抑嗎"},{"start":193.427,"end":203.901,"text":"不會啊不會嘛因為也是同源啊都是閩南語啊我們現在通稱的台語是福建省閩江以南通用的語言"},{"start":204.676,"end":227.821,"text":"是從明清時期從閩南地區移出去的人都會講閩南語那閩南人講、臺灣人講、新馬的華人也講所以全球各地說閩南語的人都能溝通無外那閩南語保留中原古音甚至被認證為所謂古漢語跟活化石傳承古老的和樂文化"},{"start":228.834,"end":244.129,"text":"那當然我也理解為什麼今天教育部要這麼做因為跟一貫的所謂的去中化的這個系列是有一些關聯可是基本上你還是要去看看所謂的淵源跟歷史"},{"start":244.89,"end":260.402,"text":"那你把所謂的閩南語把它改成所謂的臺灣台語把它所謂的塑造成所謂的有些人就會認為說你這樣的一個做法你反而變成像高安會造成前面很多人的困擾他覺得為什麼中國人會說台灣話"},{"start":262.679,"end":283.365,"text":"其實中國人說的是閩南話跟台灣人說閩南話是同樣的道理那當然文化部以所謂的專屬表徵化為名義訂出所謂的臺灣台語、臺灣客語、臺灣原住民語這些名稱實際上某種程度你只是把所謂的本來簡單的事情變得更繁複了"},{"start":284.005,"end":300.783,"text":"事實上我剛剛我看前面那個陳培瑞也講確實啊在台灣很多的民眾使用閩南語的民眾他有時候講就是方便起見通稱他就用臺語了可是當你這麼定的時候就出現一個問題第一個請問日本人會說他講的是日本日語嗎"},{"start":302.93,"end":332.43,"text":"就日語嘛英國會講它是英國英語嗎德國會講它是德國德語嗎自英國獨立的美國也不會講它是美國美語啊它只有美式英語這樣的說法而已那也就是說今天說實在話本來齁在所謂的意義上不是講通稱意義上的台語它其實包含了閩南語在臺灣用的閩南語也包含了所謂的原住民語也包含了客家語言"},{"start":333.01,"end":344.082,"text":"可是當你這樣去把這台語專屬於所謂的閩南語的時候你反而自私一分不過我說真的講這個我覺得你們也聽不進去反正你們都要做了謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:54:51 - 13:00:38","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155359","gazette":{"lineno":1128,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時54分）主席，有請文化部、教育部。"],["主席：請李次長，還有梁司長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：教育部在7月中旬預告要將「閩南語語言能力認證考試規費收費標準」改名為「臺灣台語語言能力認證考試規費收費標準」，引發了一些討論，但是目前看起來，教育部是不為所動，所以9月30日如預告所示，要把閩南語改為臺灣台語，對不對？"],["梁司長學政：是。"],["羅委員智強：最近我剛好看到有很多網友對於台語有關的議題有點困惑，我想聽聽兩位對於這些網友意見的看法。有一位網友在PTT發文說，他到廈門被嚇到，為什麼呢？廈門人台語之標準，沒有奇怪口音，說得比自己臺北的同學還要好，讓他以為他在臺灣，這是一位網友的心情。另外一位網友在Threads上面發文說，中國人想學台語，讓他很不舒服，尤其中國的音樂節目裡面竟然也唱台語歌曲，使用我們的文化符號，讓他很不爽，覺得被冒犯了。也有網友說，對於馬來西亞的朋友會說台語的「問候語」──三字經，他感到十分訝異，原來臺灣的「問候語」已經發揚到世界各地去了。我想要請教一下李次長，你覺得為什麼廈門人的台語會說得這麼好？這是怎麼回事？"],["李次長靜慧：廈門人應該是擅長說他們的廈門話。"],["羅委員智強：廈門人用的就是閩南語，你有沒有去過廈門？"],["李次長靜慧：沒有，抱歉。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，我去過，真的就是那位網友講的，在那邊都覺得我在臺灣嗎？會有這種時空感，你知道嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我相信如果……"],["羅委員智強：因為他的閩南語跟臺灣的閩南語是同源的。"],["李次長靜慧：應該這樣說，如果是一個比較善於常用台語的人員來講，到了廈門去，應該還是可以聽得出來廈門話跟台語之間的差距……"],["羅委員智強：你要跟我講口音，當然，我跟你講宜蘭跟高雄的口音就不一樣，當然口音有些微差距，你不能用口音的些微差距跟我講……沒有關係，次長，我想請教你下一個問題，中國人怎麼可以唱台語歌？"],["李次長靜慧：這個由中國他們來決定。"],["羅委員智強：你會不會覺得被冒犯？"],["李次長靜慧：我沒有覺得被冒犯……"],["羅委員智強：如果廈門人唱閩南語歌，你會不會覺得被冒犯？當然不會嘛！"],["李次長靜慧：對呀。"],["羅委員智強：閩南的民眾講閩南語，跟臺灣現在我們用的閩南語就是同源。第三個，我要問，馬來西亞的朋友也會說所謂的台語，你會訝異嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：不會啊。"],["羅委員智強：不會嘛，因為也是同源，都是閩南語啊。我們現在通稱的台語，是福建省閩江以南通用的語言，明清時期從閩南地區移出去的人都會講閩南語，閩南人講，臺灣人講，新馬的華人也講，所以全球各地說閩南語的人都能溝通無礙。閩南語保留中原古音，甚至被認證為所謂古漢語跟活化石，傳承古老的河洛文化。","我也理解為什麼今天教育部要這麼做，因為跟一貫所謂的去中化系列是有一些關聯，可是基本上你還是要去看看所謂的淵源跟歷史。你把閩南語改成臺灣台語，有些人就會認為你這樣的做法，反而變成會造成剛剛前面講的很多人的困擾，他覺得為什麼中國人會說臺灣話？其實中國人說的就是閩南話，跟臺灣人說的閩南話是同樣的道理。","文化部以所謂的專屬表徵化為名義，訂出所謂的臺灣台語、臺灣客語、臺灣原住民語這些名稱，實質上某種程度只是把本來簡單的事情變得更繁複了。事實上剛剛我看前面陳培瑜委員也講，確實在臺灣很多使用閩南語的民眾，有時候為了方便起見，通稱就用台語了。可是當你這麼訂的時候，就出現問題，第一個，請問日本人會說他講的是日本日語嗎？就日語嘛！英國會講它是英國英語嗎？德國會講它是德國德語嗎？自英國獨立的美國也不會講它是美國美語啊，只有所謂美式英語這樣的說法而已。說實在話，本來在意義上，而不是講通稱，意義上的台語其實包含了閩南語、在臺灣用的閩南語，也包含了原住民語、客家語言，可是當你們把台語專屬於閩南語的時候反而治絲益棼，不過我說真的，我覺得講這個你們也聽不進去，反正你們都要做了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","接下來請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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少禁歌多少禁書都是跟語言有關而且都是因為來自於我們每一個人的母語這是臺語的部分再來下一張"},{"start":158.45,"end":180.34,"text":"在客委會的支持下：非常多年的預算：甚至有專業的主管機關：專責的主管機關：我們看到有客家文化體驗活動：客家小旅行：客家語言的學習活動：客家美食的推廣活動下一頁在原民會主管機關的支持底下：我們有非常多原住民族語言的活動：演唱會：包含剛剛佩儀跟雅琳委員都說了我想要問次長"},{"start":181.48,"end":208.761,"text":"在這個共同的論述底下：文化部如何看待不同的母語：在這個情況：目前大家這個對立的情況：次長你怎麼看我們剛剛講就是今天臺灣的本土語言會遭受到目前都瀕臨失傳的傳承的危機是因為過去的不當的語言政策所以我們現在修改了一個最大的原則就是所有的固有語言都是稱為國家語言"},{"start":210.562,"end":230.618,"text":"所以國語這個詞就不再是最屬於華語也就是如果各位認真去研究國家語言發展法會發現我們不再說國語了以前獨尊華語的情況下彷彿臺灣這個國家只能有一種語言所有的母語我要再次強調所有的母語都被壓抑都被打壓對嗎我阿公阿嬤去"},{"start":231.559,"end":249.916,"text":"把我送去好好聊我還要回來跟阿公阿嬤講台語跟去跟好好不可以講台語這對我真的很痛苦所以我現在台語講這麼卡真的非常辛苦我們來往下看下一頁所有人都有提到所有的語言社群都有權利以自己的語言來稱呼自己我想我就不再舉例次長你一定非常清楚來看下一頁"},{"start":250.416,"end":276.821,"text":"所以我自己真的認為臺語是臺專有名詞並不是代表全臺灣的臺語這件事情我要為所有在臺灣這個土地上講著自己母語的人發聲我沒有只想要為所謂講台語的族群發聲我認為所有的母語都必須受到尊重而且受到重視並且在相關部會主管機關的協助之下用力的推廣用力的讓他講得更多講得更好我們來看下一頁"},{"start":278.476,"end":301.542,"text":"但是大家很好奇臺灣台語這個詞怎麼來相關的新聞其實曾桂海醫師當年有提到甚至呢看下一頁當時的客委會的主委其實他也是客家人可是他也認同這個寫法所以我想要說的是其實如果硬要扯回閩南語這件事情其實在學理上還有非常多還需要討論的事情我想我時間有限我就不再說可是在臺灣的民眾的調查當中大部分"},{"start":302.102,"end":318.33,"text":"百分之八十五的臺灣民眾認為自己使用臺語一詞只有百分之十五的民眾使用閩南語一詞這個我覺得要再次強調所以我認為這件事情完全沒有這個問題好下一頁但是我要提醒大家它是什麼時候被改的1960年代以後我給大家看一個證據來下一頁"},{"start":321.051,"end":339.126,"text":"這個書是在1954年臺灣省國語推行委員會編印當時蔣中正先生他就寫這個課本是他審定過的叫做臺語方音符號課本跟駐英臺語上面還有蔣中正三個字我要提醒忘記這段歷史的所有在臺灣這塊土地上的人當時臺語這個是就已經存在在臺灣這個土地上所以對我來說下一頁"},{"start":346.757,"end":371.053,"text":"我認為台灣台語符合國家語言的精神而且它同時沒有排擠到、壓抑到其他的語言但是也要再次拜託文化部包含客委會跟主委會我們在台灣所有母語的推廣上跟資源挹注上我們都要更加用力不管是在學校、在日常的生活在飲食的推廣、在旅行上我相信讓所有的母語蓬勃同步的發展不要再只是獨尊華語"},{"start":376.357,"end":376.737,"text":"主席主席主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:48:06 - 12:54:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155358","gazette":{"lineno":1098,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時48分）謝謝主席，有請文化部次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長好，請問你會講台語嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：會。"],["陳委員培瑜：應該是會的，剛才沛憶很認真講台語給大家聽，她跟我們說她是很努力在出社會之後才開始學的，我要跟次長報告，我小時候阿公阿嬤也是教我講台語，但是到學校之後，一天到晚，如果我講台語，就要被罰站到門口。我要被罰站到門口，然後掛一個不准講台語的狗牌，這是我小時候的情況，我是1977年出生的，確實經驗過這樣的生命歷程，甚至在我不想掛狗牌而跟老師抗議的時候，老師說那你就罰錢，只要在班上不小心講到台語就要被罰錢，我班上也有講客家話的同學，講客家話也被罰錢，如果拿不出錢怎麼辦？就會被叫去門口刷牙，所以跟次長報告，我的牙齒現在非常好，但是我一點都不想感謝這個獨尊華語的政策，所以如果今天有任何臺灣族群認為自己的母語受到侵蝕、壓迫，我非常認同張雅琳委員說的，其實是在獨尊華語非常多年的政策底下，導致全臺灣所有的母語，包含剛剛原住民委員談的事情，所有母語都遭到壓抑，這是我個人在整個臺灣語言發展史上的認知，不知道次長你覺得我說的對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：是的，我們之所以要修訂國家語言發展法，就是希望能夠彌補，然後調整我們過去錯誤的語言政策所留下來的遺憾。"],["陳委員培瑜：我從早上聽到現在，沒有一個委員提起這件事情。我要提醒所有的黨籍立委，我們在1972年甚至還函令電視臺每天播出的台語節目不得多於1個小時，甚至還有當時的國民黨文工會進而要求臺視要審查劇本，在當時的劇本審查不過底下，還有很多台語的節目就被停播。如果大家想一想小時候的記憶，就會知道為什麼今天所有的母語族群要共同來面對國家語言發展法這件事情。","如同主委說的，如果你覺得我剛剛的說明是對的，我們來看一下，這個是台語文創園區辦的所有跟台語有關的活動，包含從禁歌開始，如果大家記憶可及，我們小時候多少禁歌、多少禁書都是跟語言有關，而且都是因為來自於我們每一個人的母語，這是台語的部分。再來，在客委會的支持下，非常多年的預算，甚至有專業的主管機關、專責的主管機關，我們看到有客家文化體驗活動、客家小旅行、客家語言的學習活動、客家美食的推廣活動。在原民會主管機關的支持底下，我們有非常多原住民族語言的活動、演唱會，包含沛憶跟雅琳委員都說了。","我想要問次長，在這個共同的論述底下，文化部如何看待不同的母語，在目前大家這個對立的情況？次長，你怎麼看？"],["李次長靜慧：我們剛剛講了，今天臺灣的本土語言會遭受到目前都瀕臨失傳、傳承的危機，是因為過去不當的語言政策，所以我們現在修改了一個最大的原則，就是所有的固有語言都是稱為國家語言……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長，沒錯……"],["李次長靜慧：所以國語這個詞就不再專屬於華語。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，所以我剛剛都說華語，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：你有發現我都說「華語」。也就是如果各位認真去研究國家語言發展法，會發現我們不再說國語了，以前獨尊華語的情況下，彷彿臺灣這個國家只能有一種語言，我要再次強調，所有的母語都被壓抑、都被打壓，對嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我阿公、阿嬤把我送去學校之後，我要回來跟阿公、阿嬤講台語，去到學校不能講台語，這對我真的很痛苦，所以我現在台語講得這麼卡，真的非常辛苦。","所有人都有提到，所有的語言社群都有權利以自己的語言來稱呼自己，我想我就不再舉例，次長，你一定非常清楚。"],["李次長靜慧：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我自己真的認為台語是專有名詞，並不是代表全臺灣的台語這件事情，我要為所有在臺灣這個土地上講著自己母語的人發聲，我沒有只想要為所謂講台語的族群發聲。我認為所有的母語都必須受到尊重，而且受到重視，並且在相關部會主管機關的協助之下，用力地推廣，用力地讓它講得更多、講得更好。","大家很好奇臺灣台語這個詞怎麼來的，根據相關的新聞，其實曾貴海醫師當年就有提到，甚至當時的客委會主委其實他也是客家人，他也認同這個寫法。所以我想要說的是，如果硬要扯回閩南語這件事情，其實在學理上還有非常多需要討論的事情，我想我時間有限就不再說明。可是在臺灣民眾的調查當中，大部分、85%的臺灣民眾認為自己使用台語一詞，只有15%的民眾使用閩南語一詞，這個我覺得要再次強調，所以我認為這件事情完全沒有問題。","但是我要提醒大家它是什麼時候被改的，就是1960年代以後，我給大家看一個證據。這本書是1954年臺灣省國語推行委員會編印，當時這個課本是蔣中正先生審定過的，叫做「台語方音符號課本」跟「注音台語」，上面還有「蔣中正」三個字。我要提醒忘記這段歷史的所有在臺灣這塊土地上的人，當時台語這個詞就已經存在臺灣這個土地上。","所以對我來說，我認為臺灣台語符合國家語言的精神，而且同時沒有排擠、壓抑到其他的語言。但是也要再次拜託文化部、客委會及原民會，在臺灣所有母語的推廣上跟資源挹注上，我們都要更加用力，不管是在學校、在日常的生活、在飲食的推廣、在旅行上，我相信讓所有的母語蓬勃同步的發展，不要再只是讀中華語，這應該是我們接下來非常重要的行政目標，也是立法院要跟你們一起努力的目標，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提醒跟支持，我們會跟另外的部會一起來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我希望我下次看到次長的時候，我的台語會比較流暢一點，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：多謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來請羅智強委員。我們中午不休息，要繼續開會，特別宣告一下，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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我請文化部李次長好 請李次長委員好"},{"start":9.814,"end":24.786,"text":"四長好首先我要感謝因為文化部一直很支持流行音樂那不只文化部一人間現場也有客委會、園民會也都在支持我們用我們自己母語創作的流行音樂我非常感謝因為每一年我們在萬華有舉辦一個萬華大鬧熱的音樂祭很多的歌手例如說像客語歌手邱淑蟬然後嘻哈歌手雅痞春麵樂隊"},{"start":33.092,"end":33.632,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":52.859,"end":52.879,"text":"臺灣台語"},{"start":83.28,"end":84.301,"text":"我從小到大,我爸爸媽媽說台語,但我都聽不懂"},{"start":99.742,"end":103.343,"text":"我是為我自己出來選舉開始我才開始從零開始學起我是怎樣用的我都先用華語寫好稿子然後呢用LINE傳給我媽媽拜託她唸一遍用台語唸一次給我聽然後錄音給我我用白的因為我的選區在中央網站區我們網站有很多的競票常常吃平安餐會都要說"},{"start":125.31,"end":130.233,"text":"所以我們現在討論的是我們臺灣所有族群所使用自自然語也就是我們的母語都面臨了冰危的狀況也就是傳承像我這一代我若是我的母語我沒有自己學起來我學一代要怎樣"},{"start":143.579,"end":173.102,"text":"所以我們現在在討論的是一個我們的母語面臨冰危的情況所以說今年6月的時候我在教委會質詢因為我知道我們的國家語言發展法2018年制定行政院的國家語言整體發展方案2022年開始來落實那文化部說率先了開始把我們所有建議要優先使用的名稱在一些公文件裡面先開始來使用但是呢教育部卻沒有同步"},{"start":173.362,"end":194.19,"text":"我覺得我們國家政治很重要的是一致性這是原則我們不能各部會大家各做各的所以我請我們教育部趕快要用我們行政院整體方案包括了我們網路上面的詞典的使用名稱包括我們的公文件使用名稱要以一致性的原則來落實我們國家語言整體發展方案"},{"start":195.45,"end":215.677,"text":"那對我來說我覺得就是一件事為什麼剛剛我說我們為什麼我們所有的既固有族群所使用的自然語都面臨冰危的狀況就是因為過去的國語所謂的國語只有一種語言就叫做華語對於其他的語言被打壓成次等的方言"},{"start":216.497,"end":236.692,"text":"所以何止是傷心．過去在威權時代．何止是傷．對於其他族群的語言使用者來說．不只是傷心．何止是撕裂．是打壓到殘廢．又殘又廢．所以我們必須要趕快來去保存．推動發展我們的母語那謝謝次長．接下來我要請我們客委會主委"},{"start":238.718,"end":266.072,"text":"這個谷主委谷主委好祝贏嗨 祝贏你好明天好好念喔所以我要講的是語言的傳承 非常的重要因為我注意到 客家委員會有一個沉浸式幼兒園的方案那我們現在用補助的方式來補助幼兒園我們有三種 包括沉浸式幼兒園也有全客語的幼兒園那能不能請主委來向我們說明一下目前全客語幼兒園或是沉浸式幼兒園我們怎麼樣來教孩子來使用客語目前怎麼執行的"},{"start":267.253,"end":270.075,"text":"這方面其實最主要是信心,信心要講,要懂得講,他講的話,他會帶領聲音的學,所以他的反應,整個反應就會像特班一樣,所謂的很堂堂的合法"},{"start":284.904,"end":293.847,"text":"所以重點是那個形容詞所以整版、整個演說的形容詞：就要說：不能說的形容詞：要用的呢：就要去學：要嚴重支持嚴重支持不能說的形容詞：去學：去說也要有方法：比方說要形容詞：要問聖人說聖人也要用來說：所以等到聖人有成就感說我講什麼：那一天"},{"start":310.373,"end":334.23,"text":"我覺得這非常好因為母語的學習就是要從小開始我們的誠信是客語的幼兒園就是說園林使用50%的你們的資料目前全台灣是77間那麼全客語的幼兒園也就是說百分之百教學都使用客語的目前全台灣有7間那我們目前預算的投入客會我看是4000萬那今年你們邊境來"},{"start":336.812,"end":341.437,"text":"最佳、再增加了兩千萬：也就是未來我們會擴大來辦理：是不是?沒錯：因為你對韓社、越社越好：不予接觸、不予學：那些效果最好的：所以我們還要支持：還要創始有意學合法的結團："},{"start":356.331,"end":364.875,"text":"沒錯,全客語的幼兒園全台灣只有8間,我覺得不夠一定支持你們擴大辦理,再努力來推行所以說我剛講的這2000萬在預算裡面這叫做新興預算所以我也要拜託所有我們支持客語發展的委員們"},{"start":372.978,"end":400.064,"text":"大家一定要來支持我們的總預算因為今年總預算沒有過只能沿用去年度的我們沒有辦法再擴大辦理這個很重要所以主委你也要努力的來跟所有的委員溝通我們希望我們的客語幼兒園可以再繼續的擴大辦理努力的把我們的孩子不管是哪一個族群的孩子從小就可以來好好的學習他的母語好不好好 感謝吳委員﹑也感謝所有委員的支持感謝好 謝謝 謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:41:07 - 12:47:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155357","gazette":{"lineno":1080,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時41分）謝謝主席，我請文化部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長好。首先我要感謝，因為文化部一直很支持流行音樂，其實不只文化部，今天在現場的客委會、原民會，也都非常支持我們用自己的母語創作的流行音樂，我非常感謝。每一年萬華都會舉辦一個「萬華大鬧熱」音樂祭，很多歌手，例如客語歌手邱淑蟬，嘻哈歌手Yappy、春麵樂隊，原住民歌手以莉·高露、阿布絲，都有來到萬華演出，當然，還有很多華語創作歌手，非常感謝。我覺得這樣的活動非常有意義，就在我們萬華的臺北第一條街──貴陽街青山宮前面舉辦，很多在地的長輩都跟我說很少、很少看到這麼多年輕人湧入，在現場我也非常的感動，我覺得透過音樂、文化方式，讓年輕人學習自己的母語，是一個非常好的方式，首先在此表達感謝。","今天前面討論了很多我們臺灣的母語，正式的說法叫做固有族群，也就是所有族群所使用之自然語，大家討論的非常多。我心裡覺得很羨慕，因為前面有很多是資深委員，但大家聽我說母語，應該也知道我音不準，也「不輪轉」，是因為怎麼樣呢？我是1987年戒嚴那一年出生的，從小到大我爸爸媽媽說台語，但我都是用聽的，不會說，我是從自己出來選舉才開始從零學起，我怎麼學的呢？我都是先用華語寫好稿子，用LINE傳給我媽媽，再拜託她用台語唸一次，錄音給我，我用背的，因為我的選區在中正艋舺區，艋舺有很多宮廟，常常「吃平安」都要說台語。","我們現在討論的臺灣所有族群所使用之自然語，也就是我們的母語，都面臨了瀕危狀況，也就是傳承的問題，像我這一代，如果我的母語沒有學起來，下一代要怎麼辦？所以我們現在討論的是一個母語面臨瀕危的情況。","今年6月我在教委會質詢時，因為我知道國家語言發展法是2018年制定，行政院國家語言整體發展方案在2022年開始落實，文化部率先開始把所有建議要優先使用的名稱，在一些公文件上開始使用，但教育部卻沒有同步，我覺得國家政策很重要的是一致性，這是原則，不能各部會大家各做各的，所以我請教育部趕快落實行政院的整體方案，包括網路上的辭典使用名稱、公文件上的使用名稱，要有一致性原則，以落實國家語言整體發展方案，對我來說，我覺得就是一件事，為什麼剛剛我說我們所有固有族群所使用的自然語都面臨瀕危狀況？因為過去所謂的國語只有一種語言，叫做華語，而其他的語言則被打壓成次等方言，這何止是傷心！在過去威權時代，這何止是傷心，對於其他族群的語言使用者來說，不止是傷心，何止是撕裂，是打壓到殘廢，又殘又廢，所以我們必須趕快保存、推動、發展我們的母語。","謝謝次長，接下來我要請客委會主委。古主委，你好。"],["古主任委員秀妃：你也好。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委，我要講的是語言的傳承非常重要，因為我注意到客委會有一個沉浸式幼兒園方案，現在是用補助的方式來補助幼兒園，這大概有分三種，包括沉浸式幼兒園，也有全客語幼兒園。請主委說明一下，目前在全客語幼兒園或沉浸式幼兒園裡，我們如何來教孩子使用客語？目前是怎麼執行的？"],["古主任委員秀妃：執行上，其實最主要還是在老師，老師要會講、要懂得講，他講的話，就會帶著小孩子學，整個環境就像以前我們所有聽到的都是客語一樣，所以重點是在老師，整個班、整個園、所的老師要會說，那不會說的老師怎麼辦？他要去學，園長要支持不會說的老師去學、去講，還要有方法，比如老師會問小孩子這個要怎麼說，這樣小孩子反而會很有成就感，因為他會說客語，是在做老師的事情。"],["吳委員沛憶：我覺得這非常好，因為母語學習就是要從小開始，根據你們的資料顯示，沉浸式客語幼兒園，園裡使用50%客語，目前全臺灣有77間；全客語幼兒園，也就是百分之百教學都使用客語的，目前全臺灣有7間，客委會投入的預算是4,000萬，今年你們編列的預算追加了、再增加2,000萬，表示未來會擴大辦理，是不是？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，沒錯，因為語言學習要越小越好，讓他們接觸、學習，效果是最好的，所以我們很支持，也很重視幼兒學客語的這個階段。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，全客語的幼兒園全臺灣只有8間，我覺得不夠，一定支持你們擴大辦理，再努力來推行。我剛剛提到的這2,000萬，在預算裡叫做新興預算，要拜託所有支持客語發展的委員們，大家一定要來支持我們的總預算，因為今年總預算沒有過，只能沿用去年度的，我們沒有辦法再擴大辦理，這個很重要，所以請主委一樣要努力跟所有委員溝通，希望我們的客語幼兒園可以再繼續擴大辦理，努力的把我們的孩子，不管是哪一個族群的孩子，讓他們從小就可以好好來學習他的母語，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝吳委員，也感謝所有委員的支持，感謝！"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員。","接著請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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昨天在總諮詢的時候 因為我後來時間到了所以有一些事情本來想跟你就教剛好今天你有來 我就延續昨天的話題我先問一下原住民委員會成立的目的是什麼是不是要照顧原住民 是當原住民被欺負的時候 主委是不是應該提身而出 應該吧應該吧 你知道現在我們新北市很多原住民朋友包括有一些民意代表跟我反映說原住民現在已經被污名化"},{"start":36.655,"end":50.472,"text":"說現在好像總預算現在什麼什麼因為民進黨一直在散步嘛就是說什麼明年總預算沒有過啊什麼藍白在擋社福啊藍白在擋治水啊藍白在擋什麼實際上總預算是可以省到今年12月31號嘛沒錯吧是"},{"start":52.054,"end":65.335,"text":"但是他們現在就說好像現在還沒有審完就是已經擋了預算了導致於很多原住民就被誤會以為說是原住民的關係還害得其他人沒有這些社福預算那身為主委的你聽到這個你不會覺得很生氣嗎"},{"start":67.462,"end":92.316,"text":"這個就是不是原住民的原因這是一個就是原住民的精華補償的關係所以這個就沒有辦法繼續省沒有繼續省但是那個預算今年的當然還在持續使用啊明年的預算是可以省到12月31號嘛到目前為止是沒有影響的嘛對吧但是很多人就以為說已經有影響了嘛所以就把這個氣出在原住民身上嘛"},{"start":92.836,"end":110.618,"text":"那主委我覺得如果身為原住民的主委應該要去幫忙消毒這是第一件事情第二件事情很多原住民講說主委您身為原住民好像是站在政黨的立場沒有照顧原住民特別是這一次進法補償條例本來應該是一公頃要補助到六萬塊"},{"start":111.559,"end":126.854,"text":"那我看到你的說法是說你們在今年的原住民的預算已經比去年多變了12%感覺就是說我們已經對你很照顧了啦原住民我們已經很照顧了啦已經多照顧12%了啦你們還想怎麼樣你這樣的回答會讓人家有這種感覺你知道嗎沒有我說這個"},{"start":130.595,"end":135.919,"text":"明年的預算跟今年比成長了12%這是事實問題是你這樣回答並沒有解決淨法補償條例掃編的問題反而會讓人家誤會說好像主委你認為12%就夠了而且更何況多的12%主要是用在哪裡淨法補償是多了8.16%那剩下4%8.16億7%左右7%左右那剩下幾%"},{"start":159.324,"end":187.295,"text":"剩下5%用在哪?用在譬如說用在教育、文化的部分還有這個對演的部分因為你現在講的那12%有一部分是跟競爬補償它的性質是不一樣的嘛是競爬補償的意思是說因為現在非常多原住民他要土地他要土地嘛是土地的所有權人嘛所以你禁止他們去砍伐因為可能要維持地井地貌可能是要怕破壞水土所以禁止他砍伐的補償"},{"start":189.639,"end":213.926,"text":"所以這個性質跟你所謂編的像其他的福利或各方面是不一樣的嘛所以原住民的朋友講說要不然這樣子你不要我禁止砍伐我也不配合禁止砍伐那你也不用給我補償我可以利用那個土地賺更多啊現在很多原住民是這樣講啊所以你用增加12%去回應競爬補償這個事情是風馬牛不相干的事啊所以我建議你不要再用這樣的話術了因為你這樣子原住民聽了更生氣"},{"start":215.226,"end":228.956,"text":"更何況我來自新北市我本身不是原住民但我們新北市有一個烏來區烏來區裡面他受影響的是就是有500他有571.5公頃是進把補償的土地大概有1656筆然後大概影響大概368人那這些人他們也覺得說為什麼"},{"start":240.25,"end":265.419,"text":"你不給我補償 你給我的補償是這樣然後不願意幫我調高 又要我禁止嘛所以這個對他們來說他們就會有這樣的一個剝削感啦所以我是覺得你不要講那個12不要再講12%然後再來就是6萬塊錢的部分6萬塊為什麼現在3萬調到6萬其實原住民朋友他也有算一個算一個這個算法出來嘛比如說平地區枯水期的補助每公頃是5萬嘛"},{"start":266.636,"end":286.181,"text":"那你竟把補償已經幾十年沒有補償把過去沒有補償部分假設多多少少給點利息多給個一萬 剩六萬塊其實也是合理的所以我不知道為什麼主任你認為不合理然後你對於昨天卓榮泰院長講說如果這樣從三萬直接跳到六萬是浪費公帑你怎麼看"},{"start":286.661,"end":297.32,"text":"不是浪費公帑就是一下子一個預算一下子成長沒有沒有浪費公帑是卓院長講的不是你講的我知道是卓院長講的對因為我在現場聽到那你覺得浪費公帑你怎麼看"},{"start":298.001,"end":327.355,"text":"不是啊,就是應該是你針對他講的,所以你認為他講錯嘛因為你認為他講錯嘛你覺得應該是說編太快而不是浪費公帑嘛對,是增加...好啦,謝謝那個主委你到最後總算有道德勇氣講說院長講錯啦不是浪費公帑啦應該是你認為循序漸進4萬到6萬慢慢來而不是說用在原住民身上是浪費啦是好,那你可能利用你們的內閣會議的時候跟院長提醒一下是就不要講話一句話就傷了我們原住民的心啦好,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:35:24 - 12:40:54","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155356","gazette":{"lineno":1042,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時35分）主席，麻煩請曾主委。"],["主席：請原民會曾主委。"],["葉委員元之：曾主委好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：昨天在總質詢的時候，因為我後來時間到了，有一些事情本來想跟你就教，剛好今天你有來，我就延續昨天的話題。我先問一下，原住民族委員會成立的目的是什麼？是不是要照顧原住民？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["葉委員元之：是吧！當原住民被欺負的時候，主委是不是應該挺身而出，應該吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該。"],["葉委員元之：應該吧，你知道我們新北市很多原住民朋友，包括有一些民意代表跟我反映，說原住民現在已經被污名化，說好像因為民進黨一直在散布說明年總預算沒有過啊！藍白在擋社福、藍白在擋治水、藍白在擋什麼，實際上總預算可以審到今年12月31號，沒錯吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是他們現在說還沒有審完好像就是已經擋預算了，導致很多原住民就被誤會，以為是原住民的關係害得其他人沒有這些社福預算，身為主委的你聽到這個，你不會覺得很生氣嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個不是原住民的原因，這是原住民禁伐補償的關係，所以就沒有辦法繼續審……"],["葉委員元之：沒有繼續審，但是那個預算今年大家還在持續使用。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是啊！"],["葉委員元之：明年的預算可以審到12月31號嘛！到目前為止是沒有影響的，對吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，今年……"],["葉委員元之：但是很多人就以為已經有影響了嘛，所以就把氣出在原住民身上，我覺得身為原住民的主委應該要去幫忙消毒啦，這是第一件事情。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["葉委員元之：第二件事情，很多原住民說主委身為原住民，好像是站在政黨的立場，沒有照顧原住民，特別是這一次禁伐補償本來應該是一公頃要補助到6萬塊，我看到你的說法是說，你們在今年原住民的預算已經比去年多編了12%，感覺就是我們已經對你很照顧了啦，我們已經很照顧原住民了啦，已經多照顧12%了啦，你們還想怎麼樣？你這樣子回答會讓人家有這種感覺，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有，我說明年的預算跟今年比成長12%，這是事實。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！問題是你這樣回答並沒有解決禁伐補償少編的問題，反而會讓人家誤會說好像主委認為12%就夠了，更何況多的12%主要是用在哪裡？幾%？"],["曾主任委員智勇：禁伐補償多了8.16%……"],["葉委員元之：8.16%，剩下4%呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：8.16億，7%左右。"],["葉委員元之：7%左右，剩下幾%呢？剩下5%用在哪？"],["曾主任委員智勇：譬如說用在教育文化部分，還有對語言的部分。"],["葉委員元之：補助、推廣？對嘛！因為你現在講的那12%，有一部分跟禁伐補償的性質是不一樣的，禁伐補償的意思是說因為現在非常多原住民他有土地，是土地的所有權人，你禁止他們去砍伐，因為可能要維持地景地貌，可能怕破壞水土，所以禁止他砍伐的補償，這個性質跟你編列所謂像其他的福利或各方面是不一樣的。原住民的朋友說，不然這樣子，你不要禁止我砍伐，我也不配合禁止砍伐，你也不用給我補償，我可以利用那個土地賺更多，現在很多原住民這樣講。你用增加12%去回應禁伐補償這個事情是風馬牛不相干的事，所以我建議你不要再用這樣的話術了，因為這樣子原住民聽了更生氣。","我跟主委講，我來自新北市，我本身不是原住民，但我們新北市有一個烏來區，烏來區裡面受影響有571.5公頃是禁伐補償的土地，大概有1,656筆，影響大概368人，這些人也覺得為什麼你給我的補償是這樣，不願意幫我調高又要禁止我？這個對他們來說，他們就會有這樣的剝削感，所以我是覺得你不要再講12%。再來就是6萬塊錢的部分，為什麼現在3萬調到6萬？其實原住民朋友也有算一個算法出來，比如平地區枯水期的補助每公頃是5萬，禁伐補償已經幾十年沒有補償，把過去沒有補償的部分，假設多多少少給點利息，多給個1萬，這樣6萬塊其實也是合理，所以我不曉得為什麼主委你認為不合理。然後對於昨天卓榮泰院長說的，如果這樣從3萬直接跳到6萬是浪費公帑，你怎麼看？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是浪費公帑，就是預算一下子成長到6萬……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，沒有，浪費公帑是卓院長講的，不是你講的，我知道，是卓院長講的，因為我在現場聽到。對於浪費公帑的說法，你怎麼看？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是啦！這應該……"],["葉委員元之：針對他講的，你也認為他講錯嗎？你也認為他講錯，你覺得應該是說編太快，而不是浪費公帑。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，增加……"],["葉委員元之：好啦，謝謝主委，你到最後總算有道德勇氣說院長講錯了，不是浪費公帑，而是你認為應該要循序漸進，從4萬到6萬慢慢來，並不是說用在原住民身上是浪費啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["葉委員元之：好，那你可能利用內閣會議的時候跟院長提醒一下，不要講一句話就傷了我們原住民的心。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝葉元之委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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那我們有請文化部次長跟客委會主委好 請李次長以及谷主委"},{"start":16.201,"end":41.727,"text":"那我想就是其實我自己是在厚隆出生那厚隆其實是一個台語的 它是海線那我們其實講台語為主但是因為其實在我們那個地方如果你還要升學你到高中以後你大部分都要去苗栗市去升學那其實大部分人到那邊都要講客語所以我小時候每次只要進到了苗栗市我都覺得好像到了另外一個世界因為我們要切換那個語言"},{"start":43.027,"end":71.476,"text":"所以我自己其實聽得懂大概六七成的客語因為在那個環境之下讓我有那個我覺得那個算是優勢啦我可以講台語也可以聽得懂客語這樣子所以對我來說這兩種都是臺灣非常重要而且非常珍貴的本土語言那也都是大多數人在那個地方生活的人會使用到的一個生活語言所以也是許多人的一個母語那長期以來其實我非常關注這個母語政策尤其是本土語言的附贈"},{"start":73.211,"end":97.598,"text":"所以我剛剛聽到說我們其他的委員說今天在講這件事情是一個撕裂其實我是覺得蠻心痛的啦齁因為我認為我們今天做這件事情並不是在做一個撕裂的動作怎麼說呢我自己看到國家語言發展法的第三條裡面其實它是怎麼說的它是台灣各固有族群使用的自然語言及台灣手語所以這個法律文字其實展現了一個包容性"},{"start":98.038,"end":114.931,"text":"就是固有的一個使用的自然語言就是我剛剛講的一個狀況那同時在國家語言發展報告裡面它其實在口語名稱還有書面建議名稱都有講尊重各族群對其名稱之認定及彙整各種民間自稱及學術資料"},{"start":116.417,"end":138.612,"text":"促進來族群和諧尊重多元文化的發展所以我想在我們的整體報告裡面其實都一直在強調一件事情就是民粹族人的概念這個族群怎麼去認定他自己我們都尊重那這個國家語言發展法提供了一個建議我想這個是客委會跟次長應該都認同我這樣子的說法跟解讀 對嗎"},{"start":141.404,"end":148.074,"text":"那同時我自己會認為其實台灣不管是任何一個語言我們本土也遇到最強大的一個問題其實是華語獨霸"},{"start":152.994,"end":168.4,"text":"華語獨霸是華語的這個過去這麼多年來的一個文化的侵蝕從教育、從文化各個面向造成了我們母語現在處在這樣子的狀況從臺灣台語來看我們其實只有689萬人而且這是2020年的資料客語更少只有32萬9千人所以其實我們應該是要團結"},{"start":175.962,"end":193.388,"text":"而不是在這邊一直持續的撕裂好像今天做這件事情就是撕裂族群我剛剛實在是有點聽不下去母語面對的狀況最大再強調一次就是華語霸權所以我們應該怎麼樣的來去積極從各個面向來去強調我們相關的母語的政策本土語言的推廣"},{"start":195.063,"end":211.966,"text":"那我自己看了齁就是當時我們在講氧氣這個字在台語其實是跟隨著日語當時的發音喔就是伸手那我想問一下齁就是我們其實因為語言會與時俱進嘛齁我們加上臺灣台語其實是想要強調一個所謂的本土化嘛對嗎我想問請教次長"},{"start":215.894,"end":233.591,"text":"其實臺灣台語當然就是剛剛講是因為固有族群在這個地方自然發展出來的所以因為我們曾經有荷蘭統治或者是有日本統治然後到國民時期所以這個語言它其實已經涵蓋了非常多種不同語言的來源而產生的"},{"start":234.231,"end":254.055,"text":"對,所以其實呢我們今天強調這個所謂的臺灣、臺語或是什麼之類的其實都是在強調一個屬於我們本土發展的一個脈絡嘛那我想請教客委會主委我們的客語有沒有隨著日本時代或是荷蘭時代等等而流變產生的客語的語言用詞上面有融入了本土化的色彩呢"},{"start":254.655,"end":281.833,"text":"有,合法的共用、歸土的用語或用外來語或其他族群的語言、歸土的變化都是有影響嘛,對不對?都有出來外來語的影響那我想就是說,我們這個當時台灣因為在日本統治的時期其實是積極的吸取西方的知識所以有很多的這些語言都使用了這個日語那我也想問一下,因為其實臺語字典是有在跟隨著與時俱進來興編"},{"start":284.635,"end":305.07,"text":"但是我看客語字典我去查我們現在台灣最夯的半導體可是我們客語字典裡面呢我找不到半導體的搜尋結果那在我們114年的客委會的預算裡面也沒有針對這些新創詞彙來去做相關的研發我認為這會是一個很大的問題因為隨著我們的客語的孩子長大他要去吸取新知的時候"},{"start":305.931,"end":312.273,"text":"他到底要怎麼學?他又要回到華語霸權的狀態之下所以我想請主委來說明一下這針對這樣子的新詞的編列我們的規劃是什麼?呃,針對它的詞彼,我們要由邀請專家學生、母姑聽的來討論當然由的還是會加用法語﹑其他的語言的稱符來做而由的會施加翻譯,要由經過專家學生來討論"},{"start":334.882,"end":347.154,"text":"對,但是我現在已經討論了很多,聽起來已經討論了很多,那我們到底進度呢?因為總不可能一直討論之後還是沒有更新嘛在內同的部分,我們就在檢討,在做更新的工作,所以分業部分我們還是有啦,還是有做,有客廳,一旦客廳,我們就會公佈"},{"start":358.444,"end":360.725,"text":"大概是預估的一個時辰呢?可不可以... 咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?咦?"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:28:39 - 12:35:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155355","gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時28分）謝謝主席。有請文化部次長跟客委會主委。"],["主席：請李次長以及古主委。"],["張委員雅琳：早安。我自己是在後龍出生，後龍是海線，其實講台語為主。在我們那個地方，如果還要升學，高中以後大部分都要去苗栗市升學，大部分的人到那邊都要講客語。我小時候每次只要進到苗栗市，都覺得好像到了另外一個世界，因為要切換語言，所以我自己聽得懂大概六、七成的客語。在那個環境之下，我覺得那個算是優勢，我可以講台語，也可以聽得懂客語。對我來說，這兩種都是臺灣非常重要而且非常珍貴的本土語言，也都是大多數在那個地方生活的人會使用到的生活語言，所以也是許多人的母語。長期以來，我非常關注母語政策，尤其是本土語言的復振，所以我剛剛聽到其他委員說，今天在講這件事情是撕裂，我是覺得滿心痛的，因為我認為我們今天做這件事情並不是在撕裂，怎麼說呢？我自己看到國家語言發展法第三條，它是怎麼說的？它說「指臺灣各固有族群使用之自然語言及臺灣手語」，所以這個法律文字其實展現了一個包容性，即固有使用的自然語言，就是我剛剛講的狀況。同時在國家語言發展報告裡面，它其實在口語名稱和書面建議名稱用語都有講到，尊重各族群對其名稱之認定及彙整各種民間自稱及學術資料及促進族群和諧、尊重多元文化發展。所以在整體報告裡面都一直在強調一件事情，就是名隨主人的概念，這個族群怎麼去認定他自己，我們都尊重，而國家語言發展法提供了一個建議，我想客委會跟次長應該都認同我這樣的說法跟解讀，對嗎？好。","同時我自己會認為，在臺灣不管是任何一種語言，我們本土語言遇到最強大的一個問題其實是華語獨霸！華語在過去這麼多年來的文化侵蝕，從教育從文化各個面向造成了我們母語現在處在這樣子的狀況，從臺灣台語來看，我們只有689萬人，這是2020年的資料，客語更少，只有32萬9,000人，所以我們應該要團結，而不是在這邊一直持續的撕裂，好像今天做這件事情就在撕裂族群我剛剛實在是有點聽不下去，母語面對最大的狀況，我再強調一次就是華語霸權，所以我們應該怎麼樣積極從各個面向來強調相關的母語政策、本土語言的推廣？","我自己看了當時我們在講「氧氣」這個字，台語其實是跟隨著日語當時的發音，就是「酸素sàng-sò͘o」。我想問一下，因為語言會與時俱進，加上臺灣台語其實是想要強調所謂的本土化嘛！對嗎？請教次長。"],["李次長靜慧：其實臺灣台語當然就是剛剛講的，固有族群在這個地方自然發展出來的，我們曾經有荷蘭統治或者是有日本統治，然後到國民時期，所以這個語言其實已經涵蓋了非常多種不同語言的來源而產生。"],["張委員雅琳：對。所以我們今天強調所謂臺灣台語或是什麼之類的，其實都是在強調一個本土發展的脈絡。請教客委會主委，我們的客語，有沒有隨著日本時代或是荷蘭時代等等而流變，產生客語在語言用詞上面有融入本土化的色彩？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，客語一樣也是有很多的用語會用外來語或其他族群語言來變化入語。"],["張委員雅琳：所以都是有影響嘛！對不對？其實都有受到外來語的影響。當時臺灣因為在日本統治的時期，其實積極地吸取西方的知識，所以有很多這些語言都使用了日語。我也想問一下，其實台語字典有在跟隨並與時俱進來新編，但是我看客語字典，我去查現在臺灣最夯的半導體，在客語字典裡面，我找不到半導體的搜尋結果，在114年客委會的預算裡面也沒有針對這些新創詞彙去做相關的研發，我認為這會是一個很大的問題，因為隨著我們客語的孩子長大，他要去吸取新知的時候，他到底要怎麼學？他又會回到華語霸權的狀態之下，所以我想請主委來說明一下，針對這樣子新詞的編列，我們的規劃是什麼？"],["古主任委員秀妃：針對新的詞彙，我們有邀請專家學者不固定地來討論，當然有的還是會借用華語或其他語言直接翻譯，會經過專家學者討論。"],["張委員雅琳：但是聽起來已經討論了很多，到底我們的進度如何？總不可能一直討論之後還是沒有更新嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前系統的部分，我們來檢討、來做更新的工作，所以第二個部分我們還是有做的，一旦有確定一些講法，我們就會公布。"],["張委員雅琳：大概預估的時程呢？可不可以……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們隨時會做一些滾動式的更正，有新的詞彙下來之後，我們就會做一些更正。"],["張委員雅琳：現在是半個AI時代，我們有非常非常多的科學用詞，主委剛剛已經講有很多的溝通，我希望我們可以約個時間來討論相關的更新進度，儘快讓我們的孩子未來要學習更多語言的時候，還是可以使用他的本土語言來學習，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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楊瓊發言 邀請我們主委、客委會主委還有教育部、文化部好 請谷主委還有文化部理事長以及教育部梁司長"},{"start":18.277,"end":44.291,"text":"是 我想我們本席我們一併討論是一個尊重平權的一個概念那這個我們原本就有我們的法規在2019年的時候公告的國家語言發展法第三條明確的規定國家語言是指臺灣各固有族群使用之自然語言及臺灣手語"},{"start":45.751,"end":65.745,"text":"這是我們的法律定定之在那裡那行政部門有了不一樣的見解還要去做調整那必須要預告那預告期間有人正式的告知是不認同的那你們在竟然也不理智的在9月30號來公告"},{"start":67.545,"end":94.379,"text":"來讓他通過那請問在預告當中有人提出不一樣的見解你們怎麼做處置請做說明報告委員當然在預告當中如果有一些意見的表達我們就是會去做回覆做回覆怎麼樣不理之我就要滿幹我就要這麼走為什麼會這樣做的理由為什麼這麼做的理由人家是不認同的難道我們這個政府就是你要想做什麼就做什麼嗎"},{"start":95.996,"end":111.36,"text":"這不是一般的政策這是法律定定之你來一個預告人家有意見你仍舊告訴他我為什麼要這麼做你有沒有考慮到我們的族群裡頭他認不認同臺灣這麼好的一個國家竟然連這一個都要把它撕裂這是怎麼回事啊怎麼的一個邏輯"},{"start":122.779,"end":132.947,"text":"你們麻煩的做再請教三位當人民看到你們在9月30號如此的作為他們的吶喊你們聽到了沒你們聽到了沒你們做好感想請做說明"},{"start":137.045,"end":138.145,"text":"請做說明好,還是依照你們的作為"},{"start":163.004,"end":190.33,"text":"你聽到人民在那喊人民不一樣的意見 你在心裡做什麼感想謝謝委員提問 我想各個族群的情感都是政府需要去面對然後需要去安撫那這一些覺得有受傷的部分 文化部會持續在法令主管機關那邊多做的溝通我真的暈倒了 行政部門你自己還承認是有受傷"},{"start":191.83,"end":208.401,"text":"你整個我四個字送你啊獨尊霸權這不是國家語言法的初衷不是這樣子的對你已經看到是有受傷你還去安撫我明明不需要你安撫啊為什麼要安撫"},{"start":210.443,"end":222.874,"text":"這種邏輯太奇怪了到底是聽命誰敢這麼大膽的做這種事情去撕裂我們所有的族群台灣最珍貴的民主自由族群融合"},{"start":223.919,"end":242.366,"text":"平權概念這是臺灣最寶貴的為什麼連你行政部門在執行都認為有傷害你還要去安撫這為什麼會如此的作為呢這麼貿然作為呢難怪我送你四個字叫做獨尊霸權我不知道是誰去做這樣的決定人民的吶喊這麼大聲族群吶喊這麼大聲"},{"start":254.724,"end":280.046,"text":"你們各司本職應當要提出你們的論點告訴政府一個政府是必須要橫向去聯繫去討論去探求明末怎麼樣讓我們的國家能夠更加的安定人民更加的有尊嚴這是我們必須要做的所以你們審慎去思維像這樣的一個情況"},{"start":281.67,"end":290.78,"text":"不只是獨尊霸權,你還是俘老霸權從這兩三個月來,地方所發出的抗議"},{"start":292.093,"end":316.781,"text":"他們非常卑微的一個要求我們只要求族群平等、語言平等這是我們所要求的而且是政府必須要做的你們再審慎為之再去討論你怎麼樣安撫這一道傷口已經在傷口上灑鹽這不是我們所要看的"},{"start":317.662,"end":342.496,"text":"所以你們審慎地將我們所發言的內容：人民的心聲：你要審慎為之好不好你們再去討論把你們精進的方案再給本席那接下來本席要跟你討論的我一直在討論科委會我們統計我們客家人口佔了將近467萬人口是全國的人口的大概19.8"},{"start":343.997,"end":363.072,"text":"相對於105年你提升了0.5 增加了14萬但是我們來看本市非常重視我們的客語想盡了一切辦法我們不管唱歌啊跳舞啊引起大家的注意引起大家的興趣我一直努力的在推動我們的客語"},{"start":364.292,"end":370.616,"text":"因此我們看到講客家語言的人反而是減少你相對105年會聽的到現在從64.3%到現在56.4%"},{"start":379.7,"end":404.628,"text":"會說的像剛剛我聽得懂但是我沒有辦法講所以我還在精進會說的從105年46.8%到現在38.3%你降低了8.5%主委你使勁的告每一任的主委都告訴我你們要各方面洪荒之力全部下但是給我們的結果論是往下滑"},{"start":405.663,"end":411.65,"text":"要怎麼做?請教主委。感謝容議員。沒錯,有的語言復讐一定困難。有的困難真是要靠臺語入天書。我認為學位費在各方面、各兩位、各個層次都"},{"start":425.084,"end":427.566,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":442.438,"end":443.459,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":460.078,"end":473.208,"text":"主委你現在回覆到這裡都是照原本的照本宣課你沒有提出你的方案你冷靜去想一想我們在地方上在辦的時候我們甚至以家庭式在辦"},{"start":474.434,"end":490.701,"text":"家庭式的歌唱家庭式的故事戲劇為什麼要這麼做我們希望一代傳一代一代傳一代讓家庭式更加的團結然後去發揚光大"},{"start":491.181,"end":501.528,"text":"你要去想方法而不是依照你目前你花了這麼多錢你一樣是下滑而且速度這麼恐怖就已經在下滑了8.5%了你竟然還來搞了一個這個這個讓人家沒有辦法接受的族群撕裂"},{"start":510.459,"end":513.301,"text":"我們再次請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":528.251,"end":555.397,"text":"教育、家庭：要奉募請人家去推薦：這樣開了提供培養：好,你把這個時間點給我最後一個議題我再給你105年你所謂的臺三線這個克中浪漫大道治理平台到了109年你再擴大所謂的369治理平台那你也橫跨了18個部會跟地方政府組成的客家政策國家隊"},{"start":556.877,"end":582.689,"text":"這也可以顯示政府對於客家政策的決心推動．給予高度的支持．但是突然來了一個語言撕裂．讓我們心很痛．但是我還是勉勵．鼓勵政府必須好好去做我們的世界客家博覽會．去年66天有一萬一千人．"},{"start":583.689,"end":608.556,"text":"我們非常的歡喜希望能夠再精進那麼在接下來你客委會對於整個推動客家語言的附贈那麼文藝復興跟客家經濟的發展這些客家事務你要怎麼樣去創造在臺灣友善的社會環境我想這是主委你必要做的那你把經濟方案給本席大概多久時間告知本席"},{"start":609.036,"end":610.936,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":634.981,"end":657.997,"text":"你們今天擔任的這麼重要的職務竟然是作為筷子手讓族群撕裂這是對不起我們的人民的所以我在這邊嚴肅的告知必須好好的去思維要怎麼樣讓我們的族群能夠有平權的這樣子的一個方陣這才是國家之福好不好"},{"start":658.957,"end":661.64,"text":"所有語言都在臺灣的國家語言,我們建議不侵犯每一句不可能啦,這間族群撕裂來叫人家不要,不可能啦,主委你好好去思考啦,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:16:55 - 12:28:16","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155354","gazette":{"lineno":995,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時16分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。邀請客委會主委，還有教育部、文化部。"],["主席：請古主委，還有文化部李次長以及教育部梁司長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席一併討論尊重平權的概念，我們原本就有我們的法規，在2019年的時候公告的國家語言發展法第三條明確規定，國家語言是指臺灣各固有族群使用之自然語言及臺灣手語。這個是我們的法令訂定在那裡的，行政部門有了不一樣的見解，要去調整，必須要預告。預告期間有人正式地告知是不認同的，你們竟然也不理，在9月30日公告並讓它通過，請問在預告當中有人提出不一樣的見解，你們怎麼處置？請做說明。"],["梁司長學政：報告委員，在預告當中如果有一些意見的表達，我們會去回復。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：回復是怎麼樣？不理？我就是要蠻幹，我就要這麼走！"],["梁司長學政：不是，會說明為什麼會這樣做的理由。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼這麼做的理由，人家是不認同的，難道這個政府是想做什麼就做什麼嗎？這不是一般的政策，這是法律訂定之，你來一個預告，人家有意見，你仍舊告訴他我為什麼要這麼做，你有沒有考慮到我們的族群裡頭認不認同？臺灣這麼好的一個國家，竟然連這個都要把它撕裂，這是怎麼回事，怎麼樣的一個邏輯？你們就這樣蠻橫的做！","再請教三位，當人民看到你們在9月30日如此的作為，對於他們的吶喊，你們聽到了沒？你們聽到了沒？你們作何感想？請說明。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員好。我們收到大家的意見以後，我們就有反映，所以在文化部的國家語言會議裡面有增加客家的場次，我們有反映這個問題，我想要多多來溝通，所以我們有反映這個事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，還是依照你們的作為。你聽到人民的吶喊、人民不一樣的意見，你的心裡作何感想？你怎麼處理？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員提問，我想各個族群的情感都是政府需要去面對、需要去安撫的，這一些覺得有受傷的部分，文化部會持續在法令主管機關那邊多溝通，我們會持續。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哇！我真的暈倒了。行政部門自己還承認有受傷，我四個字送你，「獨尊霸權」。"],["李次長靜慧：這不是國家語言法的初衷，不是這樣子的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你已經看到有受傷，你還要去安撫，我明明不需要你安撫，為什麼要安撫？這種邏輯太奇怪了！到底是聽命誰，敢這麼大膽的做這種事情去撕裂所有的族群？臺灣最珍貴的民主、自由、族群融合、平權概念，是臺灣最寶貴的，為什麼連行政部門在執行都認為有傷害，你還要去安撫？為什麼會有如此的貿然的作為呢？難怪我要送你四個字，叫做「獨尊霸權」。我不知道是誰做這樣的決定，人民的吶喊這麼大聲，族群吶喊這麼大聲，你們各司本職應當要提出你們的論點告訴政府，一個政府必須要橫向聯繫、討論、探求民瘼，怎麼樣讓國家能夠更加的安定，人民更加的有尊嚴，這是我們必須要做的，所以請你們審慎去思維。像這樣的情況，不只是獨尊霸權，還是「福佬霸權」。這兩、三個月來，地方發出抗議，提出一個非常卑微的要求，只要求族群平等、語言平等，這是我們所要求的，而且是政府必須要做的。你們再審慎為之、再去討論，怎麼樣安撫這一道傷口？你們已經在傷口上撒鹽，這不是我們所要看的，所以面對我所發言的內容、人民的心聲，你要審慎為之，好不好？你們再去討論，把你們精進的方案再給本席。","接下來，本席要跟你討論的，也是我一直在討論的，據客委會統計，客家人口將近467萬人，占了全國人口大概19.8%。相對於105年，提升了0.5%，增加了14萬。本席非常重視客語，想盡了一切辦法，不管是透過唱歌、跳舞來引起大家的注意、引起大家的興趣，我一直努力在推動客語，但講客家語言的人反而減少。相對105年，會聽的從64.3%降到現在的56.4%。像剛剛我聽得懂，但是我沒有辦法講，所以我還在精進。會說的從105年46.8%到現在38.3%，降低了8.5%。每一任的主委都告訴我，你們要在各方面窮盡洪荒之力，但給我們的結論是往下滑，要怎麼做？請教主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝楊委員。沒錯，語言的復振很困難，這個困難真的要靠大家來幫忙，客委會在各方面、各領域、各個層次，都把我們的預算用在這所有當中，我們會花很多精神在這個部分。再來，我們會透過系統，把人跟人之間連繫起來，就是我們說的手把手、一個一個帶，主要就是要把這個語言的意識提高。假使像這樣沒有語言意識，還是會一直掉，所以最主要還是要有語言的意識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你現在回復到這裡，都是照原本的、照本宣科，你沒有提出你的方案。你冷靜去想一想，我們在地方上辦的時候，甚至以家庭式在辦，透過家庭式的歌唱及家庭式的故事、戲劇，為什麼要這麼做？我們希望一代傳一代，讓家庭更加團結，然後發揚光大。你要去想方法，而不是依照目前的方式。你花了這麼多錢，一樣是下滑，而且速度這麼恐怖，就已經下滑了8.5%，你竟然還搞了一個讓人家沒有辦法接受的族群撕裂，太離譜了！所以我把這個功課給你，你要怎麼樣去推展、想一想方案，多久時間給本席你們的精進方案？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們會很快在兩週內給委員，包括教育、家庭，所有目前我們在推展的政策，都可以提供給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把這個時間點給我。最後一個議題，你們105年有所謂的臺三線客庄浪漫大道治理平臺，到了109年再擴大成369治理平臺，橫跨了18個部會，跟地方政府組成客家政策國家隊，這個也可以顯示政府對於客家政策推動的決心，我們給予高度支持。突然來了一個語言撕裂，讓我們真的是心很痛。但我還是勉勵、鼓勵政府必須好好去做，去年世界客家博覽會66天有1,100萬人次參觀，我們非常歡喜，希望能夠再精進。","接下來，對於推動客家語言的復振、文藝復興跟客家經濟發展等客家事務，客委會要怎麼樣在臺灣創造友善的社會環境，我想這是主委必須要做的。請你把精進方案給本席，告知本席大概多久時間？"],["古主任委員秀妃：一樣，兩週可以提供。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你把它精進出來。最後本席還要再勉勵，「法令定之」，用行政命令來預告，民眾抗議而且已經提出不一樣的論點，你們要各司本職，勇於講出你們的聲音。要不然你們今天擔任這麼重要的職務，竟然作為劊子手，讓族群撕裂，這是對不起人民的！我在這邊嚴肅的告知，必須好好去思維，要怎麼樣讓族群能夠有平權的方針，這才是國家之福，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：所有的語言都是臺灣的國家語言，我們是建議性質的，不會強制每一個都一定要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可能啦！"],["古主任委員秀妃：不！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就已經族群撕裂了，還叫人家不要，不可能！主委好好去思考，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：楊委員誤會了。這不是唯一的問題，還是有選擇性建議的用法。"],["主席：主委要站穩正確的立場。謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：次長好。原住民族語言發展法是根據民國94年通過的原住民族基本法，我當時是擔任原民會的常務副主委，原民會送到行政院，當時的行政院文建會也在草擬國家語言發展法，送到行政院討論，討論的結果認為訂一個國家語言發展法就好，原民會的語言發展法先不用，但是行政院當初沒有辦法完成就是因為閩南語這個用詞，當時有很多的主張說要用台語，有人不喜歡用閩南語，就是因為這個部分整個國家語言發展法當時沒有通過，為什麼會有意見？原住民族有意見，客家委員會客家人有意見，不能獨厚閩南語稱為台語，一般民間說了沒有關係，但是你要成為法律、成為一個國家的用詞，就要尊重各個族群，你這樣是撕裂臺灣的族群，你可能不知道當時的緣由是這樣。我當立委之後，就跟當時的文建會主委、後來的文化部部長、前任馬英九任內的學者龍應台說，國家語言發展法因為閩南語、台語的用詞被擱置，讓我們原住民族語言發展法先上路。後來換成鄭麗君部長、現在的副院長，我也跟他協調，他同意了，所以原住民族語言發展法就上路了，其中第一條第一句話就是「原住民族語言為國家語言」，這是我唯一提出來的條文，當時文化部有意見，連原民會的主任委員夷將‧拔路兒也有意見，但我堅持，後來通過了，所以才有後來國家語言發展法，我跟鄭麗君部長溝通協調，才有現在的條文：「國家語言一律平等，國民使用國家語言應不受歧視或限制。」臺灣的國家語言，臺灣的都是國家語言，是這樣來的，固有族群的語言都是國家語言。然後你現在偷渡，用什麼國家語言發展法的第幾條，然後施行細則，它是要針對瀕臨族群的語言，閩南語有瀕臨嗎？你用這樣的一個說法，你的報告提到，根據國家語言發展法第幾條，然後施行細則第幾條，就把閩南語稱為臺灣台語，每一個只要聽得懂中文的人都知道，臺灣語言的簡稱就是台語，這還用辯嗎？臺灣語言的簡稱就是台語，一般民間講習慣沒有關係，但是你要成為一個國家的正式用詞。","我剛剛講了歷史背景，陳水扁總統任內之所以國家語言發展法沒有辦法通過，就是因為不要撕裂族群，不要硬強推閩南語成為臺灣台語的用詞，所以文化部，我們臺灣的族群還要這樣去撕裂嗎？教育部，你們更可惡，為什麼說可惡？你們的閩南語語言認證的收費標準是不是已經修正了？什麼時候修正的？"],["梁司長學政：今年修正的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：幾月幾號？不知道？9月30日！"],["梁司長學政：對，9月30日。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你們依行政程序法預告要修正閩南語語言認證的收費標準，這是法規命令，這是法規啊！你根據一個文化部、行政院核定的用詞就要去修法律、法規，它是法規啊！我問你，同仁可以協助說明，預告期間有沒有原住民族跟客家族群建議你、行文你說不可以把閩南語修正為臺灣台語，有沒有？有嘛！有沒有正式的公文？"],["黃科長鈺維：有接獲陳情。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：什麼叫陳情！本席依據行政程序法的預告，有意見的不是陳情，用詞錯誤，你回去跟法務部了解一下，什麼叫行政程序法、什麼叫預告？那個不叫陳情。對於法規命令有意見的可以提出來，但你們理都不理、完全不理，完全不理就直接發布，是不是這樣？你們有把各族群，包括立法委員，最起碼我有正式發文，原住民族很多的族群有提出意見，客家也有，但你們完全不理，表示你對法規還是不了解，要請教育部的法規會好好地指導。這是法規啊！違反國家語言發展法，違反國家語言一律平等、不應受歧視，這個就是歧視。文化部，這個不是那麼單純的，為什麼要去撕裂族群？客家委員會、原住民族委員會也不積極。這個部分，今天教育部來的層級非常低，你回去好好地報告給部長，以上，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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但是我們現在講的是公佈嘛但是我說現在是我們不能夠公開嘛但因為我們必須要公開我才會知道說家長去搜尋才會知道說欸我好像被這個教練教過我被這個老師教過我才有辦法的去知道欸我想他是不是有受到什麼樣的狀況如果他在社福法規裡頭他沒有被公佈"},{"start":284.145,"end":288.828,"text":"但我也想再檢討一件事情就是說其實兩年半他才敢講出來其實已經高於平均值了"},{"start":310.043,"end":326.101,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":326.681,"end":352.482,"text":"目前性騷擾防治法有把這個未成年遭受性騷擾它把它延長到成年後還可以再來提出所以我想確認一下所以我們現在之前性騷擾追溯期是10年嗎之前那個邱部長在修這個性平三法的時候你也是修法成員嘛性騷擾追溯期10年強制性交易還有這個強制猥褻的追溯期都是20年"},{"start":353.743,"end":378.141,"text":"那我們行政這個兒少權法的行政採取規範是不是也可以因為我們現在在修兒少權法嘛我們是不是可以一併的來考慮一起來修正對可以考慮可以考慮好那我想我們因為這個兒少權法的進度其實大家都非常的關心大家都非常想要知道我們到底兒少權法的一個進度因為其實牽扯到還有就是說我們兒虐事件就是這幾年啦雖然就是說通報數有增加"},{"start":378.942,"end":379.062,"text":"接下來我們請圖"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:44:45 - 13:51:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155352","gazette":{"lineno":1212,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時45分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好，剛剛羅委員問的那個題目，其實我也蠻想延續的，因為其實我們這個早療的人口越來越增加，不管是安置兒或是一般兒，其實大家都要排隊排非常久的時間，平均3到5個月才能夠去做這些評估。所以我也認為，我們應該要怎麼樣去提高這個量能，讓小孩子不用等那麼久，因為早療每一分、每一秒都是非常珍貴的。所以這個題目，我不曉得現在各縣市分布的早療量能是多少？現在有相關的數據可以提供嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，因為我們有臨床的經驗，早療做得好的話，後面小孩子的成長會好很多。"],["張委員雅琳：是，沒有錯，所以我想知道現在的量能到底怎麼樣？"],["吳署長昭軍：請問委員是說後面服務的部分，還是前面評估的部分？"],["張委員雅琳：家數，我們現在到底有多少？"],["吳署長昭軍：評估的嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：對，各縣市評估的家數。"],["吳署長昭軍：目前我們全國有85家的評估中心，有10家是做重點評估，就是他沒有辦法細節……"],["張委員雅琳：那分布呢？"],["吳署長昭軍：22個縣市我們分區域的，每個縣市都一定要有這樣的服務量能。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個題目，我想我們約個時間來好好看一下各縣市的分布，因為現在我想知道的就是桃竹的地方，到底為什麼大家要等那麼久？","接下來就進入我今天原本的題目，今年因為臺北市信義區幼兒園一案之後，衛福部很快在8月份頒訂了一個媒體報導兒少及性暴力指引，也有開始研擬如何完善這個法規，這一點我覺得必須要肯定。8月15日我也召開了一個會，叫「性平案件是否納入兒童及少年福利與權利保障法第四十九條及第九十七條公布姓名之列」，會議紀錄告訴我們其實是有的，是有把少年性平案件納入其中了。但是現在有一個問題，我們來看一下這個流程，現在性平案件發生的時候，我們是教育單位要先調查之後，社政單位會介入，然後要公布名稱的話，就要再確認這個案情內容，才會決議是否要公布在我們社政的相關網站，這個沒有錯。","但我現在有一個陳情案，他是在2021年最後一次被騷擾，2023年6月，他花了兩年半的時間鼓起勇氣，向學校檢舉這個加害人，學校也非常依循法規，在4個月之內確認加害人有不法的行為。今年初因為幼兒園事件之後，我們也非常感謝衛福部和教育部清查這3年內的性平案件，因為光清查就花了一些時間，所以清查完的時候已經是2024年的8月了，超過了行政罰法3年的時間，造成我們這個加害人無法被公布。","像這個是我發現的案子，但我不確定是不是有很多這樣的案子，都因為這樣的狀況而無法被公布？最後我們就無法保證能保護我們這些潛在的受害者。所以我想要知道，我們該如何來面對？像這樣的狀況，我們該如何來處理呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這樣的流程這麼久，導致無法保護，這是很需要檢討的。"],["張委員雅琳：我想知道，現在有一些可能已經調出來了，我們可以怎麼做呢？我們有什麼做法嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：是，謝謝委員。我想分成兩個層面，第一個，第九十七條的確是有所謂的公布姓名這件事，那這一案他有兩個問題，他是不是當時就已經被調查處分，只是他沒有做第九十七條的公布姓名，這是一個問題。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["張司長秀鴛：如果是這樣，因此他在性平的處罰上，應該也列入不適任的人員名冊。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們現在講的是公布嘛！他已經不適任，但我說的是現在我們不能夠公開嘛！因為我們必須要公開，家長去搜尋才會知道，小孩好像被這個教練教過、被這個老師教過，我才有辦法知道，我的小孩是不是有遭受到什麼樣的狀況。"],["張司長秀鴛：如果他在社福法規裡沒有被公布，不等於他在教育法規沒有被列為不適任。"],["張委員雅琳：我知道，但我現在講的就是，你在教育單位或學校老師，學校可以查，但是家長沒辦法查嘛！可是你現在第九十七條公布在網站上，家長可以查嘛！好，沒關係，你現在沒有任何的做法，我們再儘快約個時間來討論。","我想再檢討一件事情，受害者兩年半才敢講出來，其實已經高於平均值了，因為根據澳洲的調查，受害者需要24年才能夠講得出他相關的受害經歷。大多數的人都需要花這麼多的時間，你覺得我們現在這個法規，是不是也應該要來修正呢？因為我們只有給他3年的時間。"],["張司長秀鴛：是，目前性騷擾防治法有把未成年遭受性騷擾延長到成年後還可以再提出。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我想確認一下，之前性騷擾的追溯期是10年對吧？"],["張司長秀鴛：是。"],["張委員雅琳：之前邱部長在修性平三法的時候，你也是修法成員，性騷擾是追溯期10年，強制性交易還有強制猥褻的追溯期都是20年。那我們這個兒少權法的行政裁處規範是不是也可以？因為我們現在在修兒少權法，是否可以一併考慮修正？"],["張司長秀鴛：對，可以考慮。"],["張委員雅琳：兒少權法的進度大家都非常關心，大家都非常想要知道兒少權法的進度，因為這還有牽扯到兒虐事件，雖然這幾年通報數有增加，表示大家對這個意識有提升，的確我們兒虐的比率也是下降的。但是今年幾個重大案件，其實也讓大家非常關注我們的兒少托育專法，以及我們兒少修法的相關進度。這個進度是不是可以在一個月內，把相關的時程表，還有草擬的方向、方案，可以提供到我們辦公室？"],["邱部長泰源：可以，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好的，謝謝，接下來我們請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:04:41","end_time":"2024-10-09T13:44:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155351","委員名稱":"羅智強","duration":281,"start_time":"2024-10-09T13:39:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a1bf6e59f35667ed720a63eef073e7d61dad9963b523f8b1473c96730c4a1dd3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.66284375,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.46846875,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.88971875,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.172218750000003,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.103468750000005,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.384718750000005,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.26221875,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.16909375,"end":63.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.25284375000001,"end":67.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.55221875000001,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.62721875,"end":72.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.14596875000001,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.80784375,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.16159375000001,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.18971875000001,"end":95.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.01596875,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.36596875000001,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.40284375,"end":106.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.17471875000001,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.43284375000002,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.04034375,"end":132.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00",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13:44:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155351","gazette":{"lineno":1189,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（13時40分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，監察院上個月糾正衛福部，認為家外安置兒少中，有15%特殊需求的兒少長期安置在成人機構中，衛福部疏於督導地方政府負起定期評估相關安置作為，是否符合兒少最佳利益，這是監察院也通過糾正衛福部。我想請教一下，現在家外安置兒少當中，有發展遲緩或領有身心障礙證明的特殊兒少，在民國110年是多少人？我這邊的數字是718人；111年是993人，這數字對嗎？我看到的數字是這樣，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["羅委員智強：到112年變多少人？"],["張代理署長美美：1,243人。"],["羅委員智強：短短3年成長了快要一倍，這個數字蠻驚人的，部長，為什麼會暴增？要管理這個問題，先要知道問題的原因吧！對不對？"],["張代理署長美美：第一個，當然是我們發展遲緩的篩檢其實是有落實，所以比較容易能夠找得出來；第二個，是在身障的鑑定部分也做了一些調整。"],["羅委員智強：好，除了數字暴增，它馬上就連帶會影響到一件事，什麼事？"],["張代理署長美美：當然就是安置的需求會增加。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！安置能量的問題。因此，很顯然我看到今天監察院糾正的一個背景因素，就是現在整個人數暴增。我想請教我們政府的安置，不管從中央到地方，安置的能量有跟上嗎？有跟上這個人數的暴增嗎？"],["張代理署長美美：目前安置的量能確實是不足。"],["羅委員智強：不足，那現在解決方式是什麼？"],["張代理署長美美：當然，第一個我們孩子還是應該要成長在原生的家庭，所以我們如果發現不當的對待，原則上我們還是跟家庭來做工作，希望他做改善。"],["羅委員智強：我們現在看到監察院的糾正，其實主要就是講這個前提是安置能量不夠，結果就發生了15%是安置在一般護理之家、身障福利機構、長照機構、精神復健機構，這樣做法有什麼問題？合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們最重要的目的，真的就是希望他能夠回歸到原生家庭，或者是他的寄養家庭。"],["羅委員智強：可是現在暫時你就……"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，我們要求地方政府，一定要去關心這個部分；第二個，我們也跟教育部……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長說，關心也不夠，因為事實上成人機構的人力跟專業職能資源不足，就是我前面剛剛講的量就暴增，說真的我也沒特別苛求，或是覺得一定要嚴格的苛責，不管是中央跟地方。因為你剛剛就看到，那個量增加快一倍，說真的那種3年瞬增的量，會產生這種問題，其實就跟你的量暴增有關。但是衛福部作為主管機關，這個問題你就要想辦法去解決，否則的話，像成人機構這種狀況，其實兒少在那邊，他也很難滿足兒少適應同儕互動這些需求，所以才會出現今天監察院糾正的這個問題。","我自己是有一個具體的建議，現在你看到目前有安置需求的一些兒少，有69.3%安置超過兩年，甚至有四成達5年以上，有38人已經10年；36.3%是輕度或中度智能障礙，超過四成是跨轄安置；45%未滿12歲，有三分之一無語言能力，這些我覺得都是我們現在面臨還蠻嚴峻的問題。但我真的拜託我們衛福部，你們要有一個專門的報告說你怎麼解決問題，特別是資源端，你如果資源端沒到位，能力端、設施端跟安置處所端就不可能到位。所以資源端要評估出來，配合這麼大的人數的增加，你資源端評估出來，才有辦法解決這個問題，那就麻煩衛福部了，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來我們請張雅琳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:06:42","end_time":"2024-10-09T13:39:54+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155350","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","duration":402,"start_time":"2024-10-09T13:33:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600aba6d4c48f9bc6b6820a63eef073e7d61dad9963b523f8b140d8c7324e0a01dc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.236593750000001,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":16.500968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.25159375,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.94346875,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.090968750000002,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.90909375000001,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.59659375000001,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.83784375,"end":102.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.68159375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.26721875000001,"end":108.67221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.47221875000001,"end":120.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.34534375000001,"end":122.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.91471875,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.93471875,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.26346875000002,"end":132.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.04721875,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.32096875000002,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.51909375,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.58659375000002,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.60346875000002,"end":145.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.08846875,"end":145.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.20659375,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.62846875,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.16721875000002,"end":207.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.38659375,"end":209.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.63096875000002,"end":216.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.63846875000002,"end":222.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.59096875,"end":238.0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有請邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":19.321,"end":48.473,"text":"委員好部長好今天要從勞動的角度來跟您探討代理孕母的問題我想代理孕母她從懷孕到生產的過程當然就是一個勞動的過程而且還是一個9個多月不分晝夜涉及生命安全以及身心健康所以是高強度高風險的勞動過程那台灣有一部規範勞動權益的法律就是大家耳熟能詳的勞動基準法"},{"start":49.193,"end":75.818,"text":"這部法令從1984年頒布到已經40年了過勞、高工時、血汗、加班這是現在臺灣勞動現場的代名詞所以透過勞基法施行的經驗我們可以了解到法律文字定是一回事實際上的勞動關係又長得又是另外一個樣子那請教部長那如果連我們的勞動者"},{"start":77.961,"end":77.981,"text":"部長"},{"start":103.194,"end":118.668,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個問題是一個值得真的是值得思考的問題令人敬佩來討論到這樣的一個保護在這個部分我們國建署也有做相關的研議"},{"start":121.58,"end":138.261,"text":"我想印母懷孕這件事情是非常嚴肅也非常專業的而且是非常辛苦的啦是高勞動他跟職場勞動高風險是有一點但是他的高風險沒有錯所以我們會有相關的一些執法規來做相關的一些規範"},{"start":139.102,"end":164.538,"text":"嗯所以必須如果這個規範必須是要重演假設這個法過我們必須要做重演是好那我想有部分人士表示就是說在我國代理孕母的制度還沒有合法化了這段時間那極度渴望擁有自己血緣血脈的這個伴侶他必須要花大錢到國外去找這個代理孕母的勞動供給"},{"start":166.539,"end":179.132,"text":"那我想國外非但醫療技術沒有台灣好我想相關的法律保障也要打上大大的問號那甚至還要承擔到國外假結婚遭中間欺騙的風險那反而我們台灣這個醫療技術好那所以我們來請教部長是說若當台灣帶孕母有通過"},{"start":189.482,"end":189.642,"text":"我講這個部分"},{"start":210.851,"end":237.586,"text":"國税署其實都討論過也有做嚴謹的規定那至於說其他的有沒有其他的考量是不是吳市長有沒有要補充因為我剛提的嘛就是說我們的醫療好讓我們性別相對友善我們也是民主法制就是說我們的條件其實比國外都好那我們如果一旦通過了那我們是不是成為一個全球的升職工廠"},{"start":238.408,"end":259.59,"text":"我剛提到的特別是跟委員報告我們對於受委託成為代理義母的規範他大概必須要有一定的年齡限制而且他必須要有順胎產的經驗當然當然可是這不必然台灣就不會成為生殖工廠這個要成為生殖工廠我認為"},{"start":260.771,"end":286.779,"text":"不是那麼容易因為衛福部的草案當然你們有設代孕委託者不管是國籍或居住時間的限制或者至少在台灣要有社友戶籍等等或者說另外一方要在台灣居住183天以上可是部長我還是覺得這樣的規範不夠充足因為我有認真看你們的草案那我覺得你必須還有其他重演的防治的措施是不是"},{"start":287.259,"end":302.568,"text":"是我們委員的建議我們回去再檢討,一定檢討。好,我最後再次呼籲,就是說當我們要討論代理孕母這個制度的時候,請看見女性的處境,而不是又是一個生殖工具罷了。"},{"start":303.288,"end":323.231,"text":"那最後花30秒時間跟部長討論一下我總諮詢的時候跟你提到樂生療養院的問題那我想隨著這個院設陸續整修完成那近兩年要開放院民搬回他熟悉的這個院區來居住可是現在樂生院他要求僅限一名照顧者"},{"start":323.712,"end":350.282,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":350.742,"end":375.455,"text":"協助願民回歸社區與家庭的這個承諾同時我想願民的居住權又一次的受威脅部長你有沒有這樣認為這個要看一下他們規定的原因那我們是很關心他目前是這樣規定像中秋節我就到那邊跟這些60幾個阿公阿嬤一起一起吃個中秋團飯唱個歌這樣子"},{"start":376.314,"end":376.514,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:33:12 - 13:39:54","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155350","gazette":{"lineno":1157,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（13時33分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好，今天要從勞動的角度來跟您探討代理孕母的問題，我想代理孕母從懷孕到生產的過程，當然就是一個勞動的過程，而且還是一個九個多月不分晝夜，涉及生命安全以及身心健康，所以是高強度、高風險的勞動過程。臺灣有一部規範勞動權益的法律，就是大家耳熟能詳的勞動基準法，這部法令從1984年頒布至今已經40年了，過勞、高工時、血汗、加班，這是現在臺灣勞動現場的代名詞，所以透過勞基法施行的經驗我們可以瞭解到，法律制定是一回事，實際上的勞動關係又是另外一個樣子。","請教部長，如果連我們的勞動者，把每天8小時提供給雇主使用，這種所謂的勞動型態都無法完整來保障，那您怎麼會有自信能夠保障連勞基法都不允許的勞動型態？也就是連續九個多月不分晝夜，冒著生命危險，把自己的身體提供給需求者使用的代理孕母來勞動？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，我想這個問題真的是一個值得思考的問題，令人敬佩，考慮到這樣的一個保護，在這個部分我們國健署也有做相關的研議。"],["吳署長昭軍：我想孕母懷孕這件事情是非常嚴肅，也非常專業，而且非常辛苦的。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，高勞動。"],["吳署長昭軍：他跟職場勞動是有一點……"],["林委員宜瑾：高風險。"],["吳署長昭軍：他是高風險沒有錯，所以我們會有一些相關的子法規來做相關的規範。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以這個規範必須要從嚴。"],["吳署長昭軍：假設這個法通過，我們必須要從嚴規範。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，有部分人士表示，在我國代理孕母制度還沒有合法化的這段時間，極度渴望擁有自己血緣、血脈的伴侶，必須要花大錢到國外去找代理孕母的勞動供給。而國外非但醫療技術沒有臺灣好，相關的法律保障也要打上大大的問號，甚至還要承擔到國外假結婚與遭仲介欺騙的風險，反而我們臺灣醫療技術好。","請教部長，如果臺灣代理孕母有通過，我們醫療技術好，醫療費用又相對便宜，然後性別又友善，同時我們又具備民主法治，請問我們如何來避免跨國家假結婚、仲介橫行的這個全球生殖工廠？臺灣將成為全球的生殖工廠？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分國健署其實都討論過，也有做嚴謹的規定，至於有沒有其他的考量，吳署長有沒有要補充？"],["林委員宜瑾：我剛剛提的就是我們的醫療好，對性別相對友善，我們也是民主法治，所以我們的條件其實比國外都好，如果我們一旦通過了，那我們是不是成為一個全球的生殖工廠？"],["吳署長昭軍：我剛剛提到的，特別是跟委員報告，我們對於受委託成為代理孕母的規範，必須要有一定的年齡限制，而且他必須要有順胎產的經驗。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然，可是這不必然臺灣就不會成為生殖工廠。"],["吳署長昭軍：要成為生殖工廠我認為不是那麼容易。"],["林委員宜瑾：因為衛福部的草案，當然你們有設代孕委託者國籍或居住時間的限制，或者至少在臺灣要設有戶籍等等，或是另外一方要在臺灣居住183天以上。可是部長，我還是覺得這樣的規範不夠充足，因為我有認真看你們的草案，我覺得你必須還有其他從嚴的防制措施，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：是，委員的建議我們回去再檢討，一定檢討。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我最後再次呼籲，當我們要討論代理孕母這個制度的時候，請看見女性的處境，而不是又是一個生殖工具罷了。","最後花30秒的時間跟部長討論一下，我總質詢的時候有跟你提到樂生療養院的問題，我想隨著這個院舍陸續整修完成，近兩年要開放院民搬回他熟悉的院區居住。可是現在樂生院方要求僅限一名照顧者，搭配一名院民來伴同居住，導致部分院民必須在遷回熟悉的環境安養以及跟家人共同生活這兩者間兩難，要做出選擇。所以我要請教部長，僅限於一人伴同居住這個要求，是否違背了漢生病病患人權保障及補償條例，協助院民回歸社區與家庭的這個承諾？同時院民的居住權又再次受威脅，部長你有沒有這樣認為？"],["邱部長泰源：這個要看一下他們規定的原因，我們是很關心……"],["林委員宜瑾：他目前是這樣規定。"],["邱部長泰源：中秋節我就到那邊跟這些六十幾個阿公、阿嬤一起吃個中秋團圓飯，唱個歌這樣子，他們都唱日本歌，真的是很多歲了。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，因為當時他們住在那裡的時候，其實就是和家人住的嘛！所以現在規定只能有一個人陪他回來住，我想這再來做檢討好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，我們來研究一下，一定要讓他更人性化，因為已經剩下不多了。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，沒錯，部長謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝委員，謝謝部長，接下來我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:07:45","end_time":"2024-10-09T13:29:11+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155349","委員名稱":"何欣純","duration":465,"start_time":"2024-10-09T13:21:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a06b0d252ec643b7420a63eef073e7d61dad9963b523f8b143657b01c8c35754b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":0.18284375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":0.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.66721875,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.69221875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.113468750000003,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.99034375,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.51346875,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.97534375,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.407843750000005,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.930968750000005,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.719718750000006,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.985343750000006,"end":74.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.95596875000001,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.52096875000001,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.96784375,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.64284375000001,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.40909375000001,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.96159375,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.22284375000001,"end":198.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.47159375,"end":177.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.55596875,"end":177.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.48409375,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.46659375000002,"end":182.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.52534375000002,"end":184.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.26159375,"end":202.75034375},{"spe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﹏﹏"},{"start":96.164,"end":96.584,"text":"還在拼啊?"},{"start":120.237,"end":145.506,"text":"當然要一直拼了還在拼 這個願板是早就承諾的那也在中央很大的討論是認為行政院必須要有願板因為兒童托育服務是一個非常重要的一環尤其在少子女化對策裡面這個非常重要那很多年輕的家庭甚至在我們"},{"start":146.186,"end":166.425,"text":" ︎"},{"start":166.445,"end":181.87,"text":"那大家都認為應該第一個資源整合第二個應該專法能夠來做一個整合的一個專法依靠的平台希望提供更周全更安全的一個兒童托育嘛對不對所以這個專法實在是刻不容緩"},{"start":182.89,"end":197.57,"text":"所以我們有版本了所以我拜託衛生福利部可不可以快一點我們希望有院版那呢一起來討論一起來建構一起來讓專法早一日的立法通過可以嗎部長"},{"start":198.331,"end":219.639,"text":"是的,包委員,從我過去擔任8年的立委,我的經驗是有願版的話比較好討論。有願版的話比較好討論?我跟你講如果你願版到時候再不出來的話,今年你再不出來的話,那我就要拜託召委我們委員的板板要先審喔。負責的單位要趕快提出來。"},{"start":221.119,"end":245.005,"text":"因為我們今天的討論的主題裡面在我最重視的很多的年輕家庭很多的家長阿公阿嬤最注意的就是我們孩子的安全問題那尤其在托育政策裡面不管是托嬰也好或者是3到6歲的這個公共托育也好其實呢這個對年輕家庭來講"},{"start":245.845,"end":266.852,"text":" ︎"},{"start":266.952,"end":289.08,"text":"我們來講少子女化就是國安問題那呢必須把孩子的事情當作是國家的事情那這也是賴清的總統所宣誓出來的啊對不對部長所以呢在少子女化對策裡面我剛剛講的第一個我認為應該要成立專責單位第二個我們在很多的利多誘因的方面一定還要再加強"},{"start":289.96,"end":316.901,"text":"那很多的補助的預算是在我們衛生福利部那我認為除了補助預算之外呢更重要的是建立它的品質那而且呢這品質建立在0到2歲除了是托嬰中心的專業跟品質還有保姆的這個專業跟品質那這個其實都是我們很多的家長心心念念所要要求政府要做給大家看"},{"start":317.721,"end":330.354,"text":"資源要到位而且品質要到位人力專業事事樣樣都要到位部長你同意嗎?所以不是只有補助啊還有品質嘛是不是?所以我要拜託部長這個兒童托育服務法"},{"start":333.777,"end":342.219,"text":"第3個我要跟你討論的我今天特別找貴部的國建署跟教育部國教署來我們在談我們剛剛在講嬰幼兒然後嬰幼兒到來就是這個3到6歲再來就是小學中學兒童勢力的問題"},{"start":364.602,"end":393.497,"text":"根據我Google到的數據全台灣22個縣市裡面兒童勢力平均值較差的叫做基隆那六都的裡面兒童勢力平均值較差的最差的叫做台中那我是台中選出來的立委我就在想說部長我們對於學童的勢力這個現場應該我看一看大概超過七八成以上都戴眼鏡"},{"start":395.057,"end":409.407,"text":"我們這個年代已經來不及拯救那我們對未來我們的孩子啊現在的孩子我們要來得及拯救啊所以我拜託部長啊能夠大力的支持啊國建署未來要跟"},{"start":410.248,"end":428.7,"text":"教育部國教署要合作提出針對我們的第一個國小國中的學童勢力的一個我們要如何的去保護我們要預防剩餘資料我們如何及早的去做第二個我知道還有未來要下到"},{"start":430.16,"end":446.966,"text":"5歲到6歲就是我們幼兒園的大班希望能夠及早進入校園能夠面對孩子幫他們篩檢幫他們檢視他們的視力問題有問題要及早治療所以要請部長全力來支持好不好"},{"start":447.489,"end":459.338,"text":"我非常重視這個協同的資歷,所以非常重視。很重視齁,所以呢拜託有計畫有預算拜託部裡面全力支持好不好,而且台中要請多幫幫忙,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝何偉仁。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:21:26 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這個很難過的事情這個是可以預防的所以本席要請教在這樣的情況之下我們到底我們新共的防疫預算我竟然看到明年的預算是零欸我嚇一跳"},{"start":363.932,"end":388.115,"text":"為什麼明年的防疫預算是零呢?有兩個因素第一個你認為完全管控不可能我給你答案不可能第二個你掉以輕心所以我請教部長在這樣的情況之下你要怎麼樣趁著現在預算重溢的時候你應該要把這筆預算要放上去吧真正的照顧人民吧請做說明"},{"start":388.865,"end":404.848,"text":"好 謝謝委員 這個我有跟集官署做詳細的討論第一個就是我們在12月底還有一筆錢可以購買那個藥物或相關的那個疫苗還有藥物 藥物現在的準備大概"},{"start":406.391,"end":428.626,"text":"2345"},{"start":428.626,"end":428.686,"text":"那當然那個"},{"start":453.809,"end":468.22,"text":"部長,你超前來預防甚過於你後面治療所要花的費用嘛,好不好?本期具體提出,我希望得到你的支持,好不好?是。好,是就是支持喔。"},{"start":469.124,"end":469.224,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:13:03 - 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art":417.615,"end":436.261,"text":"我們的方向是什麼我們的法條寫的就是禁止中央主管機關公告之添加物是但是這樣就變成你是正面表列你現在27種你如果說之後有28種29種或是其他的你沒有在那裡面的是不是菸商就可以把它加進去那就代表是說你就開了一個後門跟巧門給菸商嗎"},{"start":437.711,"end":452.886,"text":"年來的市總會正面表的也是滾動檢討滾動檢討但是現在大家看到的所有你這次公告兩個月之後所有的意見是不是多數人還是認為是說加味煙他是讓人家有疑慮的而且再者你們公告完之後是給18個月的緩衝期"},{"start":462.096,"end":468.773,"text":"而不是像之前煙害防治法47條行政院公布後一個月就要實施了為什麼還要再給18個月緩衝期"},{"start":471.311,"end":499.363,"text":"因為這些菸品假設它現在已經在市面流通了那你公告禁止它那這些市面流通的我們沒有辦法馬上叫它回收啊為什麼沒有辦法馬上叫它回收因為它本身就是如果說你認為這個東西這個東西我們法令禁止公告了如果說真的認為是說對於我們人體是有危害或是說對於會影響到青少年使用以及讓抽菸年齡不斷下修的話那就代表是說它可能有部分的疑慮"},{"start":501.857,"end":520.137,"text":"部長我特別查了一下我以前有抽菸啦學生時代有抽但現在真的是幾乎沒有但是我要問的是你知不知道菸品的保存期限是多久一包菸最長就一年半一年半18個月"},{"start":521.641,"end":541.818,"text":"所以你公告緩衝期18個月我不禁就認為說你根本就是幫煙商煙商好朋友欸等於是說當我們公告的時候跟你講說緩衝期有18個月剛好你現在市面上最近做出來的煙保存期就18個月所以你就是可以把你現在市面上18個月的煙都賣完那不就是煙商好朋友嗎"},{"start":547.179,"end":567.166,"text":"我們公告禁止以他製造阿所以公告禁止他製造以後所以製造完之後所有製造出來的都可以讓他在市面上賣完之後才會才會截止新做的都不能加入阿就不能在市面上阿是阿所以說就變成是說你只要現在有的你都可以讓他賣完賣完在市面上所有賣完你覺得這樣子合理嗎你怎麼會那麼的量身打造阿"},{"start":574.06,"end":578.643,"text":"煙品剛好保存期限18個月我的公告緩衝期就是18個月有這麼好的事情 有這麼不好的事情"},{"start":587.293,"end":604.324,"text":"之後你們這個法條還會再修正之後才會再拿出來提出政院然後再送到立法院嗎?對不對?是不是?部長我真的希望是聽到民眾聽到社會大眾的意見我沒有對於吸菸者有任何的"},{"start":604.944,"end":605.704,"text":"這是我們的方向,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:02:32 - 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我們要避免人口土石流啦 大家都崩壞 都臥床啦所以必須要發展這個雙軌制 有照護性跟發展性的這種政策 壯士代就是一個發展性的政策 那部長這個贊不贊成這樣的 是非常支持非常支持 好 謝謝"},{"start":191.247,"end":212.119,"text":"所以我們要把銀髮海嘯變成國家發展的動力,這個不是只有衛福部的事情,你知道我看著所有的部會把高齡的事情都丟給衛福部,大家都不習慣,所有的部會高齡的預算都不到1%,我今天早上還執行國科會的五種,他說科技不能為特定人服務,"},{"start":212.819,"end":236.008,"text":"我說高齡人是特定人,他沒有高齡的政策。我說這個現在高齡者占人口三分之一咧,三分之一叫特定人喔,所以他們腦袋都沒有轉過來啦。就覺得老人都打人都面啦,不用教育不用文化不用科技不用數位打人都面啦。啊大家紛紛倒下來都要推給衛福部啦。你千萬不要一肩扛起好不好。"},{"start":237.365,"end":251.991,"text":"這個事情就不要一肩扛起你了你不要像跟訴詔一樣只要是衛生福利部就在扛起我們一肩扛起你不要隨便一肩扛起那扛起大家都要推給你好不好推給你這事情不認得這是未來台灣為一半人口的事情全方位的事情齁"},{"start":252.791,"end":277.717,"text":"所以這裡其實我提了一個壯士在裡面有一個象限就是其實我們可以發展長壽經濟這經濟部也要做然後包括活化三分之二資產在他們手上要活化資產還有包括勞動部解放勞動力然後才有辦法好好的照顧我們這一些弱勢的社福是在平權所以讓我再念一下其實這個我只要請問對於貢獻行這裡請問部長同不同意"},{"start":280.598,"end":307.786,"text":"政府應積極推動輔助壯世代產業發展並結合財稅及金融制度、土地及建屋的活用提供壯世代產業發展政策,培植新壯及產業鏈,促進長壽經濟的發展。部長同不同意?非常同意。非常同意,謝謝。再請問部長同不同意政府應建立壯世代的新形象,藉由可以的機制尊重維護世代共存共榮的新文化並積極建立相關的文化產業,同不同意?這是一個國家應該做的。謝謝部長。"},{"start":309.847,"end":331.628,"text":"再來就針對活躍性的解放勞動力這裏請部長同不同意應該積極地推動中央世代的就業建立合以媒合及培訓機制在尊重及反歧視原則下創造中央世代適性就業環境並積極推動彈性工作高利用向職場的指標及退休準備如此可以有助於補充勞動市場所需勞動力與人才部長同不同意"},{"start":332.248,"end":336.913,"text":"好再來就安穩型的活化資產請部長同步同意藉由資產的活化帶動經濟產業的發展"},{"start":350.365,"end":379.114,"text":"是否應建立超高齡社會金融行動方案與指標提供相關的金融商品或投資的鼓勵措施建構壯士代金融生態系並同時積極地提供壯士代普及公正的金融教育強化金融的勢能促進財富公平與安全部長同不同意?同意同意喔謝謝再請問部長同不同意政府應促成公私部門與學術機構的合作促進壯士代研究資源的運用並成立或指定壯士代生活需求"},{"start":379.694,"end":383.895,"text":"政府應與大學合作整合相關的教育資源培訓機構及團體協助建立以形塑良好的環境"},{"start":397.6,"end":419.016,"text":"宣傳推廣袁孟吉滿足第三男生需求的理念普及終身學習之目的的壯世代教育同不同意這是很好的事情好謝謝部長再請問部長同不同意政府應該協助壯世代積極的參與數位社會創造數位平權環境以使壯世代智慧資產有效的貢獻社會同不同意嗯"},{"start":420.693,"end":446.445,"text":"上面所有的問題有一個關鍵就好像我舉個例子我在台大醫院教授如果退休像我是退休我是名義教授那年輕人都叫醫生出去不可以再進來不然我們都沒辦法開啦我們手術房都那個這個是一個很錯誤的觀念就是要老的不退年輕沒機會我的意思就是說他應該扮演什麼角色對在未來整體要思考的所以這個基本上他參與"},{"start":448.006,"end":454.291,"text":"這一個就是明年進入台灣超高齡社會元年我們一起送給全民一個大禮物在82天就進入超高齡社會了然後所以呢這個會期"},{"start":472.287,"end":488.826,"text":"那我們提出了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法部長你剛才幾乎同意了大部分的條文了所以在這個法案我們主審是在衛福部請衛福部的全力支持而且這個是我們這一屆當中唯一一個"},{"start":489.667,"end":489.687,"text":"謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:53:56 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13:02:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155346","gazette":{"lineno":980,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時54分）有請衛福部邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：好，部長你辛苦了，在開始我想邀請你一起跟我們蘇清泉召委致敬，對於屏東的災情，還有醫院的災情表達慰問。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["吳委員春城：同時我們蘇召委現在不僅一肩扛起所有責任，而且還坐在這裡處變不驚主持會議，這是仁者跟勇者的精神，我們做所有事情都應該效法這種精神，我們跟他表達敬意好不好？敬禮、敬禮、敬禮。","部長我覺得你很辛苦，所以等一下你只要回答是或不是就好了，讓你休息一下，我覺得你很辛苦，到現在都還沒吃飯。今天這個少子化的問題，其實我看了我們所有的報告，我看了實在越來越沉重，都是補助、補助、補助。哇！我不知道我們政府這麼有錢，這麼多東西都可以補助，社福預算都8,300億了還一直補助，下一代基於真正少子化的原因，就是他們對未來沒有前途啦！不是靠補助啦！","然後這個叫扶養比，扶養比因為高齡化，所以分子越來越大；因為少子化，分母越來越少，然後30年後就會分子大於分母了，這是國發會的資料，一定會發生的事情。那現在有什麼解方？我也沒有聽到什麼解方，不是靠補助能夠解決這個問題的，現在就壯世代是一個可行的方法，把分子壯起來拉下來當分母，不是成為一個寄生者、依賴者，能夠成為生產者、消費者，把我們臺灣的底盤壯起來，大家才有未來，而且世代也會更和諧。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["吳委員春城：你現在都講是、是、是就對了。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我非常支持。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝部長。所以上次在總質詢的時候我提到，我們現在的社福是用照護性的政策，這是不可免，但是這只能照顧15%的人。接下來龐大的高齡浪潮，這個叫銀髮海嘯，800萬人、85%，我們要避免人口土石流，大家都臥床，所以必須要發展雙軌制，有照護性跟發展性的這種政策，壯世代就是一個發展性的政策，那部長贊不贊成這樣的想法？"],["邱部長泰源：是，非常支持。"],["吳委員春城：非常支持，好，謝謝。所以我們要把銀髮海嘯變成國家發展的動力，這不是只有衛福部的事情，你知道我看著所有的部會把高齡的事情都丟給衛福部，大家都不想管。所有的部會，高齡的預算都不到1%，我今天早上還質詢國科會的吳主委，他說科技不能為特定人服務，他說高齡人是特定人，他沒有高齡的政策。我說現在高齡者占人口三分之一，三分之一叫特定人？所以他們腦袋都沒有轉過來啦！就覺得老人什麼都不用做，不用教育、不用文化、不用科技、不用數位，什麼都不用，大家紛紛倒下來都要推給衛福部，你千萬不要一肩扛起好不好？這個事情就不要一肩扛起，你不要跟蘇召委一樣，說都衛福部的事……"],["邱部長泰源：只要是衛福部應該扛起，我們就一肩扛起。"],["吳委員春城：你不要隨便一肩扛起，扛起來大家都要推給你，這是未來臺灣一半人口的事情，全方位的事情。所以這裡其實我提了壯世代裡面有一個象限，就是我們可以發展長壽經濟，這個經濟部也要做，然後包括要活化，三分之二資產在他們手上，要活化資產，還有包括勞動部解放勞動力，才有辦法好好照顧我們這些弱勢的、社福世代平權。所以讓我再唸一下，我只要請問部長，對於貢獻型這裡，請問部長同不同意，政府應積極的推動、輔助壯世代產業發展，並結合財稅及金融制度、土地及建物的活用，提供壯世代產業發展政策，培植新創及產業鏈，促進長壽經濟的發展，部長同不同意？"],["邱部長泰源：非常同意。"],["吳委員春城：非常同意，謝謝。再請問部長同不同意政府應建立壯世代的新形象，藉由合宜的機制尊重、維護世代共存共榮的新文化，並積極建立相關的文化產業，同不同意？"],["邱部長泰源：這是一個國家應該做的。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長，再來針對活躍性的解放勞動力，這點請問部長同不同意，應該積極的推動壯世代的就業，建立媒合及培訓機制，在尊重及反歧視原則下創造壯世代適性就業環境，並積極推動彈性工作、高齡友善職場的指標及退休準備，如此可以有助於補充勞動市場所需勞動力與人才，部長同不同意？"],["邱部長泰源：我記得我當召委的時候，是通過了中高齡就業的……"],["吳委員春城：對，就是那時候。"],["邱部長泰源：所以應該是支持。"],["吳委員春城：還有勞動部的我們有推動勞基法的延後退休。好，再來就安穩型的活化資產，請問部長同不同意藉由資產的活化帶動經濟產業發展，是否應建立超高齡社會金融行動方案與指標，提供相關金融商品或投資鼓勵措施，建構壯世代金融生態系，並同時積極的提供壯世代普及公正的金融教育，強化金融的識能，促進財富公平安全。部長同不同意？"],["邱部長泰源：同意。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝。再請問部長，政府應促成公私部門與學術機構的合作，促進壯世代研究資源的運用，並成立或指定壯世代生活需求長期性、應用性、基礎性之調查研究的專責單位，同不同意？"],["邱部長泰源：支持。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝。再來就是社福型的世代平權，政府應與大學合作，整合相關的教育資源、培訓機構及團體，協助建立與形塑良好的環境，宣傳推廣圓夢及滿足第三人生需求的理念，普及終身學習之目的壯世代教育。部長同不同意？"],["邱部長泰源：這是很好的事情。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長。再請問部長，政府應該協助壯世代積極的參與數位社會，創造數位平權環境，以使壯世代智慧資產有效的貢獻社會，同不同意？"],["邱部長泰源：上面所有的問題有一個關鍵，我舉個例子，臺大醫院的教授如果退休，像我退休之後是名譽教授，那些年輕人都叫你趕快出去，不要再進來了，不然他們就沒辦法開刀，手術房……"],["吳委員春城：那是一個很錯誤的觀念，叫作「老的不退，年輕人沒機會。」"],["邱部長泰源：我的意思是，他應該扮演什麼角色，是未來整體要思考的。"],["吳委員春城：對。"],["邱部長泰源：基本上他要參與，只要有體力，有能力，要為社會貢獻，就一定同意啊！"],["吳委員春城：所以以後不要再叫老人，那是對老人的歧視！部長剛才完成了一件事情，你知道嗎？明年臺灣將進入超高齡社會元年，再82天就進入超高齡社會，我們一起送給全民一個大禮物，我們在這個會期提出了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法，部長剛才幾乎同意了大部分的條文，這個法案主審部會是在衛福部，也是我們這一屆唯一一個跨黨派立委共同連署的法案，所以要請衛福部全力的支持。"],["邱部長泰源：站在行政部門的角色，我們一定全力來研議，讓它更加的落實，更加能夠符合全民的需求。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝部長。繼續請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:06:44","end_time":"2024-10-09T12:53:49+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155345","委員名稱":"黃捷","duration":404,"start_time":"2024-10-09T12:47:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600ad1b652f721f5976220a63eef073e7d61f89a95c2b8a96761a5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.15596875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.85096875,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.37409375,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.79159375,"end":30.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.76034375,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.58284375,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.41284375,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.90159375,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.29221875,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.33409375,"end":58.604093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.705343750000004,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":66.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.75471875000001,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.06596875000001,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.21534375,"end":91.03784375000001},{"sp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謝主席 請部長"},{"start":40.579,"end":65.877,"text":"為什麼要這樣講呢?其實我看完你們的草案我非常擔心啊。擔心什麼?因為其實民間,我不知道部長你知不知道在那個Join平台上面有600多則的意見,針對你們的草案提出了大家的擔憂。請問你們有看嗎?你們有看嗎?有有有有,我們不但有看還是分類去請了開專家會議一直在討論。"},{"start":66.846,"end":68.447,"text":"好,那我隨便舉幾個大家的意見,第一個"},{"start":94.471,"end":111.857,"text":"請問這個代孕者裡面你們在草案的第22條裡面有寫到說現與有足月懷孕生產經驗而且沒有重大病發者這個是裡面的一個其中一個條件但是對於這樣子的條件他真的有辦法做到知情同意嗎"},{"start":113.308,"end":127.182,"text":"怎麼說呢就是如果他沒有任何活產的經驗就是他沒有真的成功生下小孩的經驗他有辦法知道說我知道接下來作為一個代理孕母他可能會遇到什麼樣的情況嗎"},{"start":130.224,"end":157.55,"text":"所以我們條文設計就是說要想成為代理姻母這件事他必須要有逐月順產的經驗他必須要有去媽媽的資格也有做孕婦的資格也都已經有那個經驗過了但我的意思是說他沒有生過嗎我們沒有規定我們規定他不可以的沒有生過就不可以啊所以在你們的文字裡面是有一定要生過小孩才可以一定要生過而且還是順產"},{"start":159.192,"end":178.749,"text":"好那這個就是必須要在文字裡面寫到非常清楚這就是民眾的疑問再來在這個22條裡面還有一個這個其實剛剛有提到就是你們針對這個身心評估的標準跟程序目前看起來是沒有任何細節的而且是一個空白的授權是這樣子嗎"},{"start":180.305,"end":207.491,"text":"我們已經在建置相關這些諮詢的機構還有它的條件還有諮詢的流程跟內容我們都已經有都正在建置完成已經建置完成了已經在建置當中已經在建置當中那我必須要說如果到時候照你們的這個版本出來如果沒有任何的具體的評估的程序以及標準沒有送出來之前這個版本是不能通過的好嗎可以嗎"},{"start":210.406,"end":233.433,"text":"我想通過跟公告實施啦應該是都在公告實施之前我們必須要把這些完備因為你們沒有讓民眾知道說接下來可能的程序可能的標準是什麼然後你就先通過了然後空白授權之後再來說我們實施之後等要實施了就會生出來這樣是一個負責任的表現嗎你們還沒有辦法解決民眾的疑問就要先通過這個空白授權的內容"},{"start":237.014,"end":237.675,"text":"署長,非常不負責任。"},{"start":252.318,"end":252.338,"text":"好嗎?"},{"start":277.321,"end":289.987,"text":"再來最後一個我認為你們也應該先把代孕的定型化契約拿出來因為你們現在也都沒有你嘛沒有你對吧有你阿為什麼沒有讓大家看"},{"start":293.266,"end":310.571,"text":"對啊沒有任何的內容然後就跟大家說反正我們先通過到時候契約的內容等你們定執法等你們要施行了再來決定這些文字白紙黑字先出來好不好先讓民眾先知道說接下來可能會遇到什麼情況是請問您是副署長副署長"},{"start":311.831,"end":335.572,"text":"報告委員那個有關那個所謂的那個應通報就是那個應記載跟不記載事項他是屬於契約內容我們一直有在開專家會議可是因為他不是屬於法定的預告內容我們現在目前是沒有預告所以這個就是我一直在說的你們就覺得他不是法定應該要預告的內容你們就不用讓民眾知道是這樣子嗎不是我們其實開會的時候可以這麼相關的NGO團體都有來參加"},{"start":338.735,"end":366.503,"text":"所以呢不用讓民眾知道嗎?你們可以在這麼就是黑箱的程序之下不用解決民眾的疑慮然後就打算這樣草率的上路這是我最大的擔憂喔因為我認為在沒有完備所有這個代孕者的他的身體自主權以及尊重他的身體之前這樣的草案都是都不是正確的"},{"start":367.143,"end":388.869,"text":"所以當然我希望好我知道時間到了最後我希望說你們還是要考慮一下先脫鉤處理的可能性是不是沒有爭議的單身女性以及女同志就先讓她上路了有爭議的之後等你們把這些定型化契約身心評估的程序標準全部定出來之後我們再來好好的讓她細緻完整的上路啊好不好"},{"start":389.209,"end":389.229,"text":"謝謝黃偉仁"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:47:05 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12:53:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155345","gazette":{"lineno":944,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時47分）好，謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["黃委員捷：好，部長好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：針對剛剛申翰委員的問題，我想要接續，因為其實總結剛剛所有委員的問題，我認為衛福部你們還沒準備好，你們真的還沒準備好。如果依照你們現在的草案要上路，我認為是非常、非常、非常不負責任的。為什麼要這樣講呢？我看完你們的草案，我非常擔心啊！擔心什麼？因為其實民間，我不知道部長你知不知道，在join平台上有六百多則的意見，針對你們的草案提出了大家的擔憂，請問你們有看嗎？你們有看嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有，我們不但有看，還分類去開專家會議，一直在討論。"],["黃委員捷：所以你們有針對這些民眾的意見，提出確實的解方嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，謝謝啦！因為大家都非常關心這個案子，所以剛剛提到有六百多則的意見，那我們分門別類，到目前為止召開了六次的專家會議，相關的團體跟專業的團體，我們都有邀請來做討論。"],["黃委員捷：好，那我隨便舉幾個大家的意見，第一、請問關於代孕者，你們在草案第二十二條有寫到，限有足月懷孕生產經驗，而且沒有重大併發症者，這個是裡面其中一個條件。但是對於這樣子的條件，他真的有辦法做到知情同意嗎？怎麼說呢？如果他沒有任何活產的經驗，就是他沒有真的成功生下小孩的經驗，他有辦法知道接下來，作為一個代理孕母可能會遇到什麼樣的情況嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：所以我們的條文設計就是說，要想成為代理孕母這件事，他必須要有足月順產的經驗，有具媽媽的資格，也有做孕婦的資格，也都已經有那個經驗過了……"],["黃委員捷：但我的意思是說他沒有生過嘛！"],["吳署長昭軍：我們規定他不可以的，沒有生過就不可以啊！"],["黃委員捷：所以在你們的文字裡面，是有一定要生過小孩？"],["吳署長昭軍：一定要生過，而且還是順產。"],["黃委員捷：好，那這個就是必須要在文字裡面寫的非常清楚，這就是民眾的疑問。再來在第二十二條裡面還有一個，其實剛剛也有提到，就是你們針對身心評估標準跟程序，目前看起來是沒有任何細節的，而且是一個空白的授權，是這樣子嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們已經在建置這些相關的諮詢機構，還有他的條件，還有諮詢的流程跟內容，我們都已經在建置了。"],["黃委員捷：已經建置完成了？"],["吳署長昭軍：已經在建置當中。"],["黃委員捷：已經在建置當中，那我必須要說，如果到時候照你們的這個版本出來，沒有任何的具體評估程序以及標準，沒有送出來之前這個版本是不能通過的好嗎？可以嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我想通過跟公告實施，應該是說在公告實施之前，我們必須要把這些完備。"],["黃委員捷：因為你們沒有讓民眾知道接下來可能的程序、可能的標準是什麼，然後你就先通過，然後空白授權，之後再來說我們實施之後，等要實施了就會生出來，這樣是一個負責任的表現嗎？你們還沒有辦法解決民眾的疑問，就要先通過這個空白授權的內容，是這樣子嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：不是這樣子說啦！因為法律律定本就如此啊！你們通過以後還會經過行政院公告，總統公告才會實施啊！"],["黃委員捷：所以你們沒有辦法解決民眾的疑問嘛！什麼叫法律依據就是如此？署長非常不負責任，真的很不負責任。你們沒有辦法回應民眾對你們的質疑，但是你現在就說反正法律先通過了，到時候這個空白授權，我們會再把子法訂出來。所以我在這邊想要具體要求，在你們這些身心評估的程序以及標準沒有具體提出來之前，這個法是不能通過的，好嗎？","再來最後一個，我認為你們也應該先把代孕的定型化契約拿出來，因為你們現在都沒有擬對吧？有擬？那為什麼沒有讓大家看？對啊！沒有任何的內容，然後就跟大家說反正我們先通過，到時候契約的內容，等你們訂子法，等你們要施行了再來決定，這些文字白紙黑字先出來好不好？讓民眾先知道接下來可能會遇到什麼情況。"],["魏副署長璽倫：是。"],["黃委員捷：請問您是？"],["吳署長昭軍：副署長。"],["魏副署長璽倫：報告委員，有關所謂的應記載跟不記載事項，它是屬於契約內容，我們一直有在開專家會議，可是因為它不是屬於法定的預告內容，我們目前是沒有預告，一直持續在滾動性檢討……"],["黃委員捷：所以這就是我一直在說的，你們就覺得它不是法定應該要預告的內容就不用讓民眾知道，是這樣子嗎？可以這麼……"],["魏副署長璽倫：不是，我們其實開會的時候，都有找相關的NGO團體來參加。"],["黃委員捷：所以呢？不用讓民眾知道嗎？你們可以在這麼黑箱的程序之下，不用解決民眾的疑慮，然後就打算這樣草率的上路，這就是我最大的擔憂。因為我認為在沒有完備所有代孕者的身體自主權，以及尊重他的身體之前，這樣的草案都不是正確的。","好，我知道時間到了。最後我希望，你們還是要考慮一下先脫鉤處理的可能性，是不是沒有爭議的單身女性以及女同志，就先讓他上路了？有爭議的部分，之後等你們把這些定型化契約、身心評估的程序標準全部訂出來之後，我們再來好好的讓他細緻完整的上路啊！好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定嚴謹來處理這件事情。"],["黃委員捷：聽不出來你們的嚴謹啦！我真的覺得部長你們要加油啦！這個內容我看了真的非常擔心，讓人現在完全無法放心，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長，接續我們請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:09:57","end_time":"2024-10-09T12:47:00+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155344","委員名稱":"洪申翰","duration":597,"start_time":"2024-10-09T12:37:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a93425bcaa14b261820a63eef073e7d61f89a95c2b8a9676140d0ad8028109d995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.188468750000002,"end":21.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.293468750000002,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.53221875,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.392218750000005,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.00346875,"end":66.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.43409375,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.50159375,"end":66.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.60284375,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.22721875,"end":68.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.06659375000001,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.77471875,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.50846875,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.62221875,"end":79.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.05221875000001,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.97596875,"end":84.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.14846875,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.09284375,"end":94.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.07096875,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.99471875,"end":100.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.94346875000001,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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︎"},{"start":102.694,"end":132.106,"text":"一個20歲到29歲的女性他說我可以當代理孕母可是我卻不能決定我自己動的卵羊去做試管嬰兒為什麼這個差別為什麼30歲才可以部長好我想吳市長是專家沒有這個是我們在專家會議討論裡面來講那論的這個部分必須要有一定的社會經濟能力的評估以後才這樣設定那一個20歲他可他可以變代理母但是他卻不能決定自己是來處理自己的受精卵"},{"start":134.602,"end":136.423,"text":"為什麼這兩個之間的年齡落差?接下來當然"},{"start":163.052,"end":175.458,"text":"我要跟這個部長再談到其實民眾也很好奇喔當時的草案其實允許成立代孕服務機構那我想問一下衛福部目前其實盤點了全台灣可以可能會有多少家的代孕服務機構"},{"start":177.608,"end":198.146,"text":"我們也是需要一定要成立這樣的機構目前沒有不是你的草案裡面說要成立代孕服務機構所以你們評估有可能我們有能力可以成立多少家嘛一定是我們評估有能力成立我才會去做這樣子的入法規劃嘛那評估會成立多少家"},{"start":199.448,"end":227.507,"text":"我們未來還是要看需求啊成立了沒有需求還是沒有問題那我問你 你的評估結果你覺得需要多少家嘛你做的法規 入法的規範難道不用做這法規前面的評估嗎你有多少能量有可能可以有多少家我們目前台灣相對應的這些機構或組織有多少有能力去做這件事情衛福部有沒有掌握嘛我的問題是這個嘛這是大家的問題啊這是大家的疑問啊部長"},{"start":230.315,"end":255.659,"text":"我想委員提的提的建議齁如果我們沒有把它理得太清楚我們會馬上來來來不然我要再繼續問啦我也是把大家的問題要反映啊對於孕母跟受託者來說最關鍵的事情就是這個叫做代孕契約之定型化內容與其應記載及不得記載事項這是最重要的事情那我要問衛福部這個會怎麼定"},{"start":259.194,"end":260.116,"text":"這個我們目前也是在討論當中"},{"start":261.772,"end":288.327,"text":"我的意思是說你在五月五月應該在朔前裡面你在五月的時候你做了這個草案的預告這個名詞出來以後大家對這個東西會有很多的疑問可是這幾個月下來很多相關的疑問都得不到衛福部的回答我自己覺得這是一件不太負責任的事情你把這個概念跟名詞跟法律入法丟出來了當大家都有疑問的時候你卻說沒有我這個還在討論中"},{"start":290.646,"end":304.19,"text":"部長,你覺得這是OK的嗎?你不用跟我講完整的內容,你要告訴我這個內容裡面可能會有什麼東西,或它的價值是什麼。對。部長,包括大家疑問說如果發生了爭議,在這個待遇發生爭議。"},{"start":318.294,"end":325.019,"text":"後續的調解機制是什麼在這裏面我們其實都沒有看到我要說的事情很簡單我自己並不全然反對代孕"},{"start":326.909,"end":349.572,"text":"我自己並不全然反映代孕但是對於社會上面對整體代孕機制尤其是對於孕母的保障的部分當時這幾個月下來提出很多的問題但這些問題到目前為止我都沒有看到衛福部進而進一步的出來回應這些具體的問題只看到衛福部啪一聲在五月的時候丟出一個草案裡面擺入了一個代孕的專章"},{"start":351.459,"end":351.479,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":378.035,"end":400.529,"text":"嗯,現在也不是專章啦,大概是在寫專節啦,專節啦,那因為都一直在討論當中,所以其實也有很多委員一直在催時程,但是我們也快不了,因為就是有這麼多的疑惑,我們需要去跟專家再討論,再釐清,再擔心。不然我只要說的一件很簡單的事情,再一點點時間齁。"},{"start":402.91,"end":431.221,"text":"今天代孕這一個事情事關重大我剛剛說了我也不全然反對可是確實社會有很多到底代孕這件事情怎麼運作它的機制是什麼遇到的問題該怎麼解決相關的問題我今天到目前為止我還是沒有辦法看到衛福部針對這些問題有一個相對清晰的回應如果沒有辦法有個清晰的回應一下子就要把這個代孕這件事情啪丟到法裡面"},{"start":432.645,"end":459.104,"text":"其實我覺得途征非常非常多的困擾也會讓相對比較沒有爭議的剛剛說到包括女同志或單身女性可以往前走的部分受到很多的拖延這是為什麼希望說是不是比較沒有爭議的部分可以先往前走因為大家也會有急的急迫的感覺至於代孕的部分我們把相關的問題跟解決的方案給釐清了以後要不要脫鉤處理或要不要另外處理我們不反對這個事情"},{"start":461.396,"end":483.871,"text":"所以我剛剛是透過我希望能夠把大家有的疑問讓部長知道至少部長你應該知道到目前為止衛福部針對這些問題看起來我們一直以來我們包括所知也好包括詢問也好私底下詢問也好或在各個大大小小的場合都沒有聽到衛福部有具體而清晰解惑的回答"},{"start":484.731,"end":501.847,"text":"其實委員的所知我們都知無不言言無不盡啦是一定提出來那如果知無不言言無不盡現在沒辦法提出就代表絕對沒辦法解決嗎可能還在專家的討論啦可能還在專家的討論部長我說你說知無不言言無不盡可是當大家提出來得不到回答難道是因為這些問題真的沒辦法解決嗎"},{"start":504.212,"end":505.933,"text":"但是衛福部還是有責任要告訴大家到底這些大家疑問的點或者是對保障擔憂的點"},{"start":520.717,"end":536.395,"text":"你的具體的方案跟回應是什麼如果沒有辦法我覺得就不應該匆忙的包括我認為甚至是不負責任的就把一個這樣子的代孕者概念放到草案裡面你又沒有辦法回答又要放我不懂這邏輯是什麼"},{"start":538.101,"end":567.083,"text":"議長可以嗎一般來講大概這個立法有很多執法規可以去解決的可以去處理的問題我知道執法規可以解決但我一樣要知道請問你所說的執法規是想要怎麼解決我你不用現在給我看條文至少概念上面要跟大家說我想這個部分我們會把我們的努力我知道你現在在這個法還在檢討中我知道還在檢討中我們會把我們努力的過程那這個還在檢討中但我希望不要在犯之前"},{"start":567.363,"end":567.403,"text":"好,好"},{"start":595.732,"end":596.198,"text":"好謝謝文謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:37:03 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12:47:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155344","gazette":{"lineno":895,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時37分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，剛剛前面很多同仁其實都談到，也討論到人工生殖法接下來下一步的狀況，我自己其實不管是衛福部的公聽會或立法院公聽會，幾乎每一場我都參與了，也把每一場的會議紀錄跟各方的主張論述全部看過一遍。為什麼當時我特別希望先通過女同志跟單身女性人工生殖法，因為它共識相對高，尤其是在時間的流逝之下，其實有很多女性真的等不及。","接下來我想跟部長請教幾個更進一步的問題，我看了一下當時衛福部提供的草案，也請吳署長上來。如果以一位20歲到29歲的成年女性來看，她可以決定結婚生子，她在符合草案的條件下，她可以成為代理孕母。代理孕母20歲可以喔！但很奇怪，她卻不能夠自己決定凍卵後做試管嬰兒。因為我們在草案裡面說，對不起，單身女性要滿30歲，才能夠自己決定做後面的形成受精卵或試管嬰兒。部長，為什麼？","一個20歲到29歲的女性，她說我可以當代理孕母，可是我卻不能決定我自己凍的卵要去做試管嬰兒，為什麼只有差一步，為什麼30歲才可以，部長？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想吳署長是專家……"],["吳署長昭軍：沒有，這個是我們在專家會議討論裡面，認為這個部分必須要有一定的社會經濟能力的評估以後，才這樣設定。"],["洪委員申翰：那一個20歲的她可以變代理孕母，但她卻不能決定自己來處理自己的受精卵？這中間的落差大家看不懂啊！署長，不能只推給專家啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：這個本來就是你要自己懷孕、自己生子，那你的家庭狀況必須要去考量啊！"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["吳署長昭軍：對，那剛剛提到這個是要成為被代孕的委託……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要先跟你反映，這點是很多民間團體很疑惑的地方，為什麼這兩個之間的年齡有落差？接下來我要跟部長再談到，其實民眾也很好奇，當時的草案其實允許成立代孕服務機構，那我想問一下衛福部，目前盤點了全臺灣可能會有多少家的代孕服務機構？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們也支持一定要成立這樣的機構，目前沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，你的草案裡面說要成立代孕服務機構，所以你們評估我們有能力可以成立多少家嘛！一定是我們評估有能力成立，才會去做這樣子的入法規劃嘛！那你評估會成立多少家？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們未來還是要看需求啊！成立了沒有需求還是沒有……"],["洪委員申翰：我問你的評估結果，你覺得需要多少家嘛！"],["吳署長昭軍：我們評估認為假設要做這件事，一定要有這樣的機構來幫忙。"],["洪委員申翰：你做了法規入法的規範，難道不用做法規前面的評估嗎？你有多少能量、可能可以有多少家，我們目前臺灣相對應的這些機構或組織，有多少能力去做這件事情，衛福部有沒有掌握嘛？我的問題是這個嘛！這是大家的問題，這是大家的疑問啊！部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員提的建議，如果我們沒有把它釐得太清楚，我們會馬上來……"],["洪委員申翰：部長我要再繼續問，我也是反映大家的問題啊！對於孕母跟受託者來說，最關鍵的事情，就是這個代孕契約之定型化內容與其應記載及不得記載事項，這是最重要的事情。我要問衛福部，這個會怎麼訂？"],["吳署長昭軍：這個我們目前也是在討論當中，但是那應該在授權裡面。"],["洪委員申翰：我的意思是說，你在五月的時候做了這個草案的預告，這個名詞出來以後，大家對這個東西會有很多的疑問。可是這幾個月下來，很多相關的疑問都得不到衛福部的回答，我自己覺得這是一件不太負責任的事情。你把這個概念跟名詞還有法律入法丟出來了，當大家都有疑問的時候，你卻說沒有，這個還在討論中，部長你覺得這是OK的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為……"],["洪委員申翰：你不用跟我講完整的內容，但你要告訴我這個內容裡可能會有什麼東西。"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個預告以後，大家有很多的意見，我們都一直在蒐集、在開專家會議，所以可能在時間上，還沒有對外來發表結論。但是大家的疑問我們一定會去……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，包括大家疑問說如果發生了爭議，後續的調解機制是什麼？這裡面我們其實都沒有看到。我要說的事情很簡單，我自己並不全然反對代孕，但是對於社會上整體代孕機制，尤其是孕母保障的部分，這幾個月下來提出很多問題，但這些問題到目前為止，我都沒有看到衛福部進一步的出來回應這些具體的問題。只看到衛福部「啪！」一聲，在五月的時候丟出一個草案，擺入了一個代孕的專章，如果你不回答社會這些問題，或沒有能力具體回答這些問題的話，為什麼「啪！」一下丟出這個專章？如果今天衛福部針對這些爭議的問題都有能力回應，也能夠說服大家，我覺得要擺入專章或者什麼這可以討論。可是你明明擺出一副我沒有能力回應的問題，可是你「啪！」一下丟出這個專章，我看不懂這是為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：現在也不是專章，大概是專節。"],["洪委員申翰：對，專節，你把代孕入法了啊！"],["邱部長泰源：因為都一直在討論當中，所以其實也有很多委員一直在催時程，但是我們也快不了，因為就是有這麼多的疑惑，我們需要去跟專家再討論、再釐清、再擔心……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我只要說一件很簡單的事情，再一點點時間。今天代孕這件事情事關重大，我剛才說了，我也不全然反對，可是確實社會有很多對於代孕到底怎麼運作？它的機制是什麼？遇到的問題該怎麼解決？相關的問題，我到目前為止還是沒有辦法看到衛福部針對這些問題，有一個相對清晰的回應。如果沒有辦法有個清晰的回應，一下子就要把代孕這件事情「啪！」丟到法裡面，其實我覺得徒增非常非常多的困擾，也會讓相對比較沒有爭議的，剛剛說到包括女同志或單身女性可以往前走的部分，受到很多的拖延。這就是為什麼我希望比較沒有爭議的部分，是不是可以先往前走？因為大家也會有急迫的感覺，至於代孕的部分，我們把相關的問題跟解決方案釐清了以後，要不要脫鉤或另外處理，我們不反對這個事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝委員的寶貴意見。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我剛剛是希望能夠把大家有的疑問讓部長知道，至少部長你應該知道，到目前為止，衛福部針對這些問題，看起來我們一直以來，包括索資也好、私底下詢問也好，或在各個大大小小的場合，都沒有聽到衛福部有具體而清晰解惑的回答，但是看到條文……"],["邱部長泰源：其實委員的索資我們都知無不言，言無不盡，一定提出來……"],["洪委員申翰：如果知無不言，言無不盡，現在沒辦法提出，就代表沒辦法解決嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有些可能還在專家的討論……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你說知無不言，言無不盡，可是當大家提出來得不到回答，難道是因為這些問題，真的沒辦法解決嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為有雙方面的意見，所以我們現在也一直在開專家的會議。"],["洪委員申翰：是，我知道，但是衛福部還是有責任要告訴大家，到底這些大家疑問的點，或者是對於保障擔憂的點，你的具體方案跟回應是什麼？如果沒有辦法，我覺得就不應該匆忙的，包括我認為甚至是不負責任的，就把一個這樣子代孕概念放到草案裡面。你又沒有辦法回答，又要放，我不懂這邏輯是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：一般來講，大概這個立法，有很多子法規可以去解決、可以去處理問題……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道子法規可以解決，但我一樣要知道，請問你所說的子法規是想要怎麼解決？你不用現在給我看條文，至少概念上面要跟大家說。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分，我們會把我們的努力過程……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道你現在這個法還在檢討中，我知道還在檢討中……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把我們努力的過程以及討論……"],["洪委員申翰：但我希望不要再犯之前的狀況和問題，可以嗎？因為這些抗議的聲音都會來到我們各個委員的國會辦公室。他們問我，我去問衛福部，衛福部不給我答案，我也沒辦法回答這些民間的團體和這些關心的人。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會注意，如果委員有問題，我們是不是to the point，再把它能夠盡量解釋清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我希望我們針對這一連串的問題，可以再重新檢討，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長，接續我們請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:05:03","end_time":"2024-10-09T12:36:56+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155343","委員名稱":"林楚茵","duration":303,"start_time":"2024-10-09T12:31:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a4ebd110f5d71654e20a63eef073e7d61f89a95c2b8a9676118318873d924b4585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.16096875,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.16909375,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.923468750000001,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.442218750000002,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.47596875,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.51784375,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.28596875000001,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.92721875000001,"end":70.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.48409375,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.77846875,"end":123.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.51784375000001,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.94096875,"end":147.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.87284375000002,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.20971875,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.82971875,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.97971875000002,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.79221875000002,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.06596875000002,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.79971875,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.24659375000002,"end":189.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.87471875,"end":193.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.40159375000002,"end":206.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.44159375,"end":207.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.06159375000001,"end":209.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.63534375,"end":212.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.58409375000002,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.53596875000002,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.81596875000002,"end":245.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.36409375000002,"end":244.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.54971875,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.25784375,"end":254.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.33284375000002,"end":256.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.29034375000003,"end":258.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.31096875000003,"end":260.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.45846875,"end":266.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.26346875,"end":268.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.98471875,"end":269.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.01846875,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.03534375000004,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.44034375,"end":269.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.54159375,"end":269.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.55846875000003,"end":269.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.60909375,"end":288.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.29846875000004,"end":292.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.76596875,"end":294.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.51221875000005,"end":298.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.84471875,"end":302.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.26659375,"end":301.73909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.565,"end":6.511,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請邱部長"},{"start":12.93,"end":39.06,"text":"部長晚安很開心可以來質詢這個過去的同事然後現在已經是我們的部長部長我想剛剛聽到我們蘇組蘇昭偉剛剛至情至心一番有關於安泰醫院的這個用心良苦的發言本席是相當肯定的不過就像剛剛包括連中嘉賓委員也在詢問就是有關於這個醫療機構的安全本席是特別的建議啦是不是我們接下來應該要安排一個就是醫療機構有關防"},{"start":41.401,"end":68.175,"text":"災的安全專報反正大家都介意都在乎也在意那我們就可以一起來共同討論那麼包括安泰醫院他年底也要來進行這個所謂的相關的醫療評估的時候也不會讓大家覺得說啊因為這個呃榮譽院長是召委然後通過評估是不是有瓜田李夏或什麼我們就一起來關注我覺得這個對召委也是比較公平的不知道這個部長是不是可以同意那我們就趕快可以來也來安排我們到時候呃所有的委員也可以一起來關注"},{"start":69.949,"end":89.905,"text":"好,那麼接下來我當然要關注的還是我們今天的主題喔,這個,麻煩下一張,就是這個是在2019年5月17號當時我跟包括主席洪森漢委員,然後賴品宇委員,林昌作委員跟陳培宇委員我們當時針對人工生殖法該修法舉行了公聽會。"},{"start":91.786,"end":120.323,"text":"當時其實所有NGO團體最大的公約數就是單身女性跟同志伴侶要緊述來修正人工生殖法我知道今天前面有一些委員是說人工生殖已經來不及了最好還要提升到一步到位到代理育母的部分但是我剛剛看了一下我們專報的書面報告裡頭第一頁就說要將人工生殖跟代理育母採脫鉤的方式來處理喔那麼這個到底是不是肯定的"},{"start":120.683,"end":122.839,"text":"因為我們都知道下一張"},{"start":124.551,"end":151.082,"text":"在衛福部之前的預告裡面感覺上不是這樣人家說小孩才做選擇所以一次通通都要但是對於一個相關的醫療的法規的修正真的可以這樣嗎真的可以一步到位嗎當你如果爭議很多的時候會不會因為代理育母的爭議包括道德性的一些爭議甚至於說是不是子宮販售化像這樣的議題讓"},{"start":153.763,"end":153.783,"text":"因為剛剛﹖"},{"start":177.85,"end":206.448,"text":"我們也特別知道像這種一個修法或是一個制度的改變常常會牽涉到的是有沒有爭議沒有爭議的有沒有可能或者是說爭議少的可能先行那現在衛福部的態度到底是什麼會不會因為有別的委員希望一起搭上這班車然後一起把門打開那麼就讓原本爭議比較少的反而遭到阻礙"},{"start":207.469,"end":207.77,"text":"部長謝謝委員的催省。我想"},{"start":213.632,"end":238.538,"text":"我們對人工修法就是一直滾動式的需要應應這個社會的需求民眾的需求那我們一定要堅持幾個原則就是的一個不管是人工生殖的執理的最佳前代的一個利益還有就是在倫理各方面的一個考量當然也要考量到是不是"},{"start":239.358,"end":249.965,"text":"我能不能獲得一個肯定的答案就是報告已經說了會脫鉤那麼有沒有可能沒有爭議的未婚女性跟同志伴侶可以先行還是真的就是要全部通通一起來"},{"start":267.301,"end":293.69,"text":"我是不是請吳署長先回答一下好署長我想我們都是在努力當中那這個是政策的定調那未來也是因為這個立法院這邊本身也有16個版本那相關的需求都在裡面那未來在討論的時候也會有相關的這些議題那如果說爭議的部分到底你們怎麼樣來判讀判斷如果說現在代理運母的部分最後我們還是尊重立法院的審理結果"},{"start":295.592,"end":301.327,"text":"好時間到我想後面還有其他的這些同仁好謝謝林委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:31:53 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有關係少子化那我們因為現在台灣的少子化程度你知道目前一年的人口出生數是多少嗎下一頁"},{"start":48.599,"end":66.711,"text":"13萬多嘛。那麼其實我們現在是生不如死,一年短差已經到7萬了。而且從2020以前就已經生得不如死的了。好,你知不知道越南一年的新生人口大概多少?你知道我常去越南看新南向的醫療。你知道我這次去他們告訴我多少嗎?一年的新生兒185萬。185萬。好,那"},{"start":73.371,"end":90.698,"text":"人數年輕跟老化的結果會產生什麼我們看下一頁齁其實你看高齡化現在都說現在是怎麼樣臺灣已經是超高齡社會了我們是用65歲以上做一個起算點對不對你認為臺灣是不是現在已經進入超高齡社會超高齡社會是不是醫療讓人要一併提高"},{"start":93.205,"end":106.972,"text":"沒錯但是我覺得要修正大家不要畏懼其實我認為要調高的是65歲這個提高啦其實我這次吼難得受傷去醫院住院還被推去受手術全身麻醉我才發現幫我推論你的年紀比我還大"},{"start":108.598,"end":130.778,"text":"其實這呈現什麼其實現在我們的健康情況都很好很多人中高齡就業70歲以前他還可以做很多事情所以我們要思考一下不要只看到事情的負面的一面要看到他可能的正向影響我們的雖然高齡化了但是我們的高齡人口的健康情況是有在持續提高的這是拜我們醫療所示謝謝往下看"},{"start":131.579,"end":148.547,"text":"好那目前我們需要的問題就是這樣所以看事情要看兩面你認為要解決目前我們護理人員是不是因為開人不足才開不出床來很多醫院都病床啊他明明可以開一千床的他開不到八成是不是有這個情況那怎麼解決這個問題部長所以我們用"},{"start":152.305,"end":178.914,"text":"其實訓練的護理人員是夠但是留任力比較重要但是我們來想想看你們都是從醫護訓練的量來看他未來的從業的量這裡面有很大的一個水桶如果破了你補再多水還是漏光啊以前我們常開玩笑說啊也說最好的工作嘛錢多事少離家近對不對睡覺睡到自然醒休息休到什麼腳抽筋有沒有這樣的工作"},{"start":180.171,"end":198.79,"text":"我們的護理人員剛好相反啊他是怎樣前面有很多事情很多對不對離家近有沒有用常常要待命被擒是不是這樣這就封殺很多人停班停課醫護人員最辛苦就算沒有門診還是要在颱風天幫大家看病是不是這樣甚至有的公立醫院還發病了什麼"},{"start":200.572,"end":217.842,"text":"臺豐門診意思說我門診照開啊臺豐家門診有沒有聽說為什麼服務我們的同仁嘛好不好同胞嘛是不是這樣是所以重點不只是提升待遇有人很斤斤計較在點子之外他提醒你要改善職場的負荷啦我們要護理人員不只待遇問題是不是負荷過重"},{"start":221.465,"end":237.839,"text":"你錢可以多但是你事情沒有減少的話年輕人還是不願意投入啦這些受過醫護訓練的人還是不願意投入臨床啦是不是這樣子好我們往下看所以呢普遍的他是高工時低薪我們除了改善他的薪資之外其實重點是怎樣"},{"start":238.559,"end":255.155,"text":"要讓他的工時降低或者那工時降低人就要增加啊你不增加人他工時沒辦法降低啊多一點人他能每個人工作時間降低第二個事情要減少我這次才發現呢我是住院啊往下看齁我們醫院很多很多的人力在做什麼往下業"},{"start":257.639,"end":269.405,"text":"衛時嘛,我當然不需要衛時啦,我要自己叫那個副PANDA啦。然後呢移動,把我推出手術房叫我坐輪椅,我說我就可以走路啊,大哥你比我年紀還大。他說不行,你待會全身麻醉要坐輪椅。誰來推輪椅你知道嗎?"},{"start":271.943,"end":272.503,"text":"拜遣人力。"},{"start":288.53,"end":312.297,"text":"你知道這些推輪椅的在幫你黃金萊巡訪的這些美女們是護理人員嗎?很多都是派遣人員甚至是外籍看護是不是這樣?那這些人員如果受到專業的訓練能夠有效的分攤我們護理人員非核心的護理業務你覺得有沒有有助於我們解決目前前少勢多護理人員的窘境?有可以幫助好那我要告訴你"},{"start":313.069,"end":313.569,"text":"但是呢,我問過很多。"},{"start":336.346,"end":359.307,"text":"認為武專的護理訓練他如果未來是錯護理佐的問題啊護理護理佐的問題呢是錯作有益現在有護理佐理人員的一個規劃嗎有沒有護理佐理人員的規劃簡單講有這部分有因為我們目前有個12項計畫裡面有一個住院整合照護計畫裡面有這個這些護理佐理人員有規定要本國人嗎"},{"start":361.179,"end":383.074,"text":"沒有規定因為他們有本國證照嘛 對不對但是你想想看這些護理佐理人員如果用這些美女帥哥年紀長的無技術能力的還是外籍的看護用來台灣學習護理教育的這些年輕的僑外生你覺得他們未來在台灣完成訓練後來到醫院裡面從事這樣的護理佐理人員適不適當"},{"start":385.967,"end":413.93,"text":"我們現在其實也在演繹很好趕快加速演繹時間快到了往下看所以我建議一下因為我常去這些東南亞國家他們這些國家遇到問題就是他們人員的專業訓練不夠他們都很嚮往來台灣接受完整的醫護技術訓練跟教育培養但是他們也希望能夠在這段期間台灣能夠投入一些有給的工作這個如何跟勞動部跟教育部商量我覺得很重要但是你們要先把護理佐理這個人力需求切割出來"},{"start":415.472,"end":419.922,"text":"這些僑外生受護理教育的僑外生他們才會有機會進入到臨床來減輕我們本國護理人員的負擔你同意嗎"},{"start":425.011,"end":425.612,"text":"部長,往下一邊"},{"start":449.693,"end":465.603,"text":"其實啊,您的思考比較久,我很快樂時間,開玩笑。我跟您講,現種科技,傳統叫battery,現在叫儲能設施。儲能設施由於科技的發展,現在一個特斯拉的電動車,一個車庫有一個特斯拉,你這次颱風就算停電三天你也不怕。"},{"start":466.303,"end":493.314,"text":"因為一個特斯拉的電池的供電量可以讓一個5人的家庭可以用3天所以目前如果我們用像醫院這種關鍵性的維生的一個機構應該轉換用安效為安全不是說絕對安全 較為安全的儲能設施或者是燃料電池來取掉傳統的柴電部長有沒有去盤點目前我們全國的醫護機構醫療機構他們目前的備援電力是用柴電還是用其他的先進技術有沒有評估過"},{"start":497.412,"end":497.772,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝總委員,謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:23:03 - 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麻煩邀請部長好 我這樣請委員好部長好 以前當委員的時候是同事恭喜你當上衛福部部長是 謝謝我們直接進正題大選的時候我們的總統賴清德說他告訴所有一屆的朋友點子不會低於0.9要朝議員努力一開始是這樣講的"},{"start":36.452,"end":59.022,"text":"後來繼續加碼健保點子平均要1.1億元然後有人酸他你做不到來不及他說我最有能力解決我來自醫界我想第一個基本的價值的問題我們要先處理你認為健保的點子1.1億元是不是在浪費公帑"},{"start":61.756,"end":78.551,"text":"報告委員因為這是總額制總額制它的點子就基本上就會有變化所以呢所以你覺得賴清德總統是在亂開支票嗎我想他是希望朝著這一方面來努力不是嘛你一個要選總統的人開了政見就要兌現啊"},{"start":82.543,"end":108.945,"text":"什麼叫做要朝這個方向來努力我們先講價值的問題嘛健保點值1.1元是不是在浪費公帑這個基本概念很重要啊因為我聽到我們的行政院院長卓榮泰啊說行政院編預算不可以浪費公帑啊我聽了覺得啊陣容發聵啊非常的有道理啊所以我們繼續往下走以前啊先處理這個基本價值的問題嘛"},{"start":110.27,"end":133.591,"text":"如果今天有一個臨時任用的人員一年給他一百多萬原來是立委的助理莊角我一定說這是浪費公帑但健保點子1.1億人牽涉到基層醫護全力的保障所以我才請教你健保點子1.1億人是不是在浪費公帑"},{"start":136.584,"end":141.495,"text":"會嗎?您覺得會浪費工廠嗎?您也來自醫界嘛。會不會浪費工廠?"},{"start":143.738,"end":168.234,"text":"有沒有讓位醫療資源這個就是說有沒有管理得當如果他管理得很好醫療需求也是需要我想全民應該體會到醫界是真的很認真很節儉的資源在照顧病人對嘛那民眾應該所以你來自醫界就知道嘛我們醫界是勒緊了孤袋在照顧病人嘛"},{"start":169.741,"end":176.487,"text":"我每次去醫院的時候看見那些醫生護理師那麼辛苦我都希望可以幫他們多講一點話所以啊我們為了要幫賴清德主席貫徹他競選總統的政見我們上個會期簽了組決議這是跨黨派的委員"},{"start":191.653,"end":218.403,"text":"因為在照顧醫護同仁、照顧病患不應該有顏色之分、黨派之分我相信部長絕對有這個高度嘛所以跨黨派的委員拿這個來給我簽的時候我看了完全沒猶豫就簽了啊三個黨團的總召全部都簽了啊114年6月30號以前要達到平均點值0.95元做做得到"},{"start":220.68,"end":245.858,"text":"報告委員因為這兩個分兩個部分簡單報告第一個就是我們在談總額有一個總額的成長率這個我理解今年的成長率是5.5是可能是有史以來最高的是這中間就成長了531億是那另外行政院也預注了336億元那當然有很多的其中有180億元是比較屬於協助健保所以這兩個加起來其實也700多億了那"},{"start":250.27,"end":262.637,"text":"那這700多位當然就是說我們醫療的同仁一定要去做點事情然後再再有收入這樣子沒有關係啊單刀直入一點一點全委員做不做得到"},{"start":265.246,"end":284.762,"text":"我想我們現在的努力對點子一定有很大的幫助但是能夠預期到因為報告委員那個各區在訂他自己的點子其實他們也可以自己訂比如說臺北區他們的臺大醫院農總醫院剛剛楊耀委員在質詢的時候他很客氣啊"},{"start":285.743,"end":312.32,"text":"他說他不要耽誤到後面委員的時間但我知道他該講的話沒講完我也是靜靜的在等他那我希望啦我給你一個問題你就給大家一個明快的答案嘛那要不然的話在那邊拖來拖去其實沒什麼意思啦今年暑假的時候啊衛福部的次長林靜儀說啊說要到0.95元需要挹注700億這個估計對不對"},{"start":315.584,"end":329.057,"text":"這是我們依照這個健保的總額來算所以這個估計對不對?對還是不對?原則上用那個總額來算是差不多要需要這樣的經費這樣子那有編進去嗎?"},{"start":332.155,"end":332.895,"text":"我只問一個關鍵的問題,預算夠不夠?"},{"start":351.799,"end":365.559,"text":"這個預算必須要在醫療體系齁也在盡量改在醫療體系的改革因為現在全國人民聽不懂啊卓院長跟大家說有困難你說你有信心那現在大家到底要聽誰的聽卓榮泰的還聽你的"},{"start":367.654,"end":370.577,"text":"我只要相信醫療體系能夠大家能夠配合政府的努力我相信達到這個目標是不遠"},{"start":388.198,"end":401.127,"text":"我不敢講說一定0.95但是我們一定朝這個目標來部長你是來很厲害的上來質詢要幫你爭取預算然後你可以在那邊歐聯社都可以讓他回報阿部沒有關係啦"},{"start":402.5,"end":402.52,"text":"謝謝王偉"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:15:56 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︎"},{"start":98.945,"end":104.768,"text":"針對公脫設置的速度太慢,衛福部這邊政策方向大概是怎麼樣?"},{"start":105.782,"end":114.067,"text":"當然我們持續一直爭取監會...代理署長回答也可以齁沒有,是實際上一直那個爭取監會齁所以預計我們113人第一會設置...113年就是今年的會設555處可收拖1.7萬名兒童那114人會再增加37處"},{"start":127.978,"end":127.998,"text":"1萬7加1萬8"},{"start":144.348,"end":171.486,"text":"1萬8那就要看部件的地區還是以假如我這邊的資料沒有錯的話大概就是臺北市跟桃園算是最嚴重的這個必須要就是因為少子化算是一個國安層級的問題所以衛福部這邊必須要協助地方政府把可以做的事情做好"},{"start":173.227,"end":184.192,"text":"公脫的部分還有另外一個問題就是就是不當對待的事件也很常發生就是說在擴充量的同時怎麼兼顧照顧的品質"},{"start":195.982,"end":221.704,"text":"委員好這個照顧的部分我想我們大概是放在公托大概就是一個是托嬰中心一個是公共家園或者是給保母那第一個我們當然是要求就是絕對不能夠虐待小孩或不當對待我們就加強這個托育人員的這個教育訓練這是一個那第二個是我們在這個職場裡面的同仁是很辛苦的所以我們衛福部也提高了就跟行政院有爭取經費"},{"start":222.54,"end":246.622,"text":"提高他們的待遇希望是能夠讓他們在職場上面的條件是比較友善的我想這是我們的第二個做法第三個我們也是在加強我們縣市的同仁去做一些查訪平常的查訪以及做評鑑都去看他們有沒有做好照顧的工作"},{"start":248.68,"end":276.194,"text":"這三個方向好像都是正確的啦就是教育訓練然後讓他的專業的能力提高提高待遇讓他的情緒好一點那查核這個方向是對的可是希望能夠落實啦我常常說政策目標也好法律也好"},{"start":278.198,"end":281.805,"text":"訂的再好,落實不了,都是白搭啦。"},{"start":285.342,"end":309.284,"text":"部長我這邊還有一個問題就是監察院有指出說現在大概有176名特殊需求的兒少被安置在一般的護理指教跟身心障礙機構就是不是安置在他應該安置的地方"},{"start":310.886,"end":324.886,"text":"這個案你們應該有,你們現在要怎麼重新安置這一些特殊的、特殊需求的兒少來符合他的最佳利益?好,我想"},{"start":326.041,"end":351.681,"text":"特殊需求兒少安排在成人機構這個是因為有他特殊需求我們也希望想要得到更好的照顧那當然我們終極的目標就是希望他能夠回家不管是回自己的原生家庭或者是安養的一個縮養的家庭都是但是他如果需要還是需要在機構的話我們也會在長照的區域裡面做一個專區"},{"start":352.822,"end":353.483,"text":"所以不得不喊自災"},{"start":380.802,"end":389.88,"text":"理論上應該是這樣子嘛,對不對?那我們把它安置在一般的護理之家或是身心障礙福利機構怎麼落實"},{"start":394.924,"end":397.665,"text":"部長我直接因為我時間的關係我原本是禮拜二"},{"start":422.881,"end":436.835,"text":"就上個禮拜二總質詢的時候的時候要講還是因為就天后的關係所以就蓋成書面還是還是一樣是"},{"start":438.929,"end":460.897,"text":"醫學中心的問題因為我覺得這個醫學中心的的評鑑應該要由部長跟陳時中政委都在的時候來討論會比較好所以我才原本要因為陳時中部長就是一再一再承諾醫學中心一定要有升有降"},{"start":462.602,"end":483.196,"text":"可是他離職了以後卻突然一次評鑑就增加了三家的醫學中心醫學中心一直增加一方面健保的支出會增加會吧?會不會?"},{"start":485.954,"end":511.454,"text":"醫學中心跟區醫院幾戶是不一樣的嘛對不對會增加那健保健保收的少然後資的多現在大家一直在討論財源然後你們一直一直在增加醫學中心的數量從我們原本原本就台灣的人口數我們的評估是12家現在已經22家是"},{"start":514.397,"end":540.594,"text":"那假如說我還是我還是因為今天時間的關係我不想佔用其他其他同事的的太多時間我就想說假如說你們只升不降那是不是已經升級的的醫學中心就好好的讓他從事醫療機構就停止他的評鑑要不然他浪費一大堆一大堆時間做出很多書面"},{"start":541.636,"end":562.256,"text":"然後可是對他來講沒有意義因為他已經升到醫學中心他也不可能再升了那台灣的制度除了陳時中部長一直堅持說他一定會有升有降以外卻都是只升不降那何必浪費時間來做評鑑呢"},{"start":571.154,"end":587.604,"text":"平建也是要求當然平建我們希望不要造成醫院太多的行政作業不是 現在是這樣子因為平建是這樣他已經到醫學中心但是現在維持他的平建嘛但他平建無關他平建無關我們都不會幫他"},{"start":592.418,"end":599.508,"text":"現在就是...就是...我現在講的就是...醫學中心是從來沒有...沒有沒有台灣從來沒有醫學中心被降過"},{"start":611.581,"end":634.927,"text":"不然你再想一想因為這個問題我因為還有很多同事要質詢我不想再用大家的時間不過你想一想說臺灣到底在健保的財務已經這麼困難的情況下醫學中心一直加速一直增加"},{"start":636.896,"end":652.293,"text":"對於健保來講是一種傷害那醫學中心只升不降這個會不會造成醫學中心的怠惰這個部長想一想我們有機會再做討論謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:04:54 - 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的目標是43萬噸如果43萬噸的話它的價格就會可以拉上去"},{"start":242.608,"end":264.135,"text":"但是你講的這是一連串的一個改變嘛但是如果那還沒看到結果嘛那寡產的生乳量比較少的那些牛如果沒有淘汰掉了以後那我們的牛乳的生產的成本"},{"start":265.086,"end":283.145,"text":"那也沒有降低呢?但也要仰賴著全就是世界的原物料的價格嗎?是不是?我跟委員說明齁這次我們訂14塊是這一學期然後我們會隨時去檢討如果它的價格的確有比較偏低的情況之下我們在下一期會不會做調整"},{"start":284.225,"end":309.394,"text":"對因為你現在跟我們國內的生乳收購的價格的確比較起來就不一致嘛是不是就有很大的差異性嗎那這跟你強調的你要按照落落農業的永續政策就是推廣國產的鮮乳這樣子的一個想法也相相當的背道而馳嗎"},{"start":310.374,"end":334.355,"text":"我跟委員報告你這邊所提供的資料是每一公斤好像這邊14.5塊那我們是195毫升是14塊所以它之間不是用直接這樣做對比我當然知道所以我們會去我說這個是價格的差異性那但是未來這是成本價嘛那未來如果"},{"start":335.353,"end":364.231,"text":"好了等紐西蘭牛乳又進口了那會不會產生有混沖的現象我有看到啦你們有提供了混沖的方法學嘛是是不是但是要到明年才會才才可以成功嘛是不是明年下半年我想那今年呢整個方法學已經送到衛福部我們也希望它盡快的審完第二個部分就是我們有貼出百分之百國產鮮乳的標章特別是在什麼時候可以審完什麼時候可以審完"},{"start":364.671,"end":384.47,"text":"這個要我們再跟衛福部溝通看看可不可以盡快啦但是相對的我們有貼標章就是百分之百的國產乳的部分希望做市場的鮮乳標章的部分我們會特別 如果你標了這個東西我想就是一個必須要百分之百的你如果混的時候你就要被罰"},{"start":385.231,"end":402.904,"text":"我們標了本地的鮮乳可是我們就沒有辦法來沒有檢驗的方法的時候這明年才會出來嘛我們就沒有辦法在今年可以做相關的檢驗嘛是不是我現在的做法是這樣子齁就是第一個我希望衛福部趕快盡速的通過"},{"start":403.724,"end":404.084,"text":"還有就是"},{"start":429.512,"end":446.146,"text":"關於氣候變遷我們知道現在葡萄的種植第一個它要什麼時候種因為氣候的影響加劇導致於它現在沒有辦法像過去一樣預估耕種的期間你有發現這個嗎"},{"start":448.468,"end":466.328,"text":"我們有發現其實氣候變遷對於整個的產區往北移甚至於適當的栽培期已經變化了造成很大的困擾所以是不是應該要鼓勵農民變成溫室的種植我們一向是鼓勵所以我們過去有溫室的補助是四年兩千"},{"start":472.261,"end":480.145,"text":"所以你們是不是應該要協助我們這些葡萄農民來增加就是說來讓他們就是變成溫室因為如果不是溫室的時候他們對於這種氣候異常的情況可能會加劇"},{"start":498.874,"end":499.514,"text":"還有一個題目就是我們現在"},{"start":521.323,"end":545.207,"text":"每年除漁的量是62萬公噸但是如果我們以標準的除漁的方式我們沒有辦法達到減碳現在如果有就是說我們是不是農業部應該要協助這些除漁的處理廠商尤其是我們有一些像黑水蟒這樣子的生物來協助我們來"},{"start":550.387,"end":551.368,"text":"在方法學部分"},{"start":559.994,"end":579.869,"text":"布長可不可以協助我想廚餘用黑水盲這個議題其實過往這一兩年來一直有支持的也反對的所以我們現在在想辦法把這些可能的一些風險能夠把它降低以後能夠讓這個黑水盲的產業變成一個產業然後也會對於這個廚餘有效的去去去去化"},{"start":580.923,"end":606.16,"text":"對,因為台灣的廚餘就是這麼多當然我們不希望它一直變多,我們希望減少但是事實上的情況就是這樣子那如果能夠達到減碳的目標的這樣子的情況下我希望我們應該要共同來協作好不好我們會努力來做,特別是黑水芒它變成是一個蛋白質的主要來源那個是一個非常好的蛋白質來源"},{"start":606.96,"end":607.06,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:03:48 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12:04:48","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155338","gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時58分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。今天衛福部來報告少子化對策的執行成效，關於少子化，本席相信對新生兒和孕婦的照顧都相當重要，可是我們看一下資料，2023年臺灣的新生兒死亡率是千分之二點八，嬰兒死亡率是千分之四點三，高於其他OECD國家，在39個國家裡面排名第31名，和日本、韓國比起來，我們相對落後，所以等一下要請教部長，臺灣嬰兒死亡率居高不下的原因在哪裡？","第二個，孕婦的死亡率。按照這個數字，臺灣在2019年創下23年來的新高，達到十萬分之十六，近3年雖有下降，但數字也有限，只下降到十萬分之十三到十四。一樣，與日本和韓國相較，日本是十萬分之三點四，韓國是十萬分之八點八，都遠低於臺灣。衛福部國民健康署110年也有提出降低孕產婦、新生兒及5歲以下兒童死亡率的策略規劃，訂下一個2020永續發展目標，請教一下部長，今年是2024年，2020年的發展目標─孕婦死亡率要低於十萬分之十一點六，請問有沒有達到？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。我想……"],["李委員坤城：還有降低5歲兒童及新生兒死亡率，5歲以下兒童死亡率要低於千分之五，新生兒死亡率要低於千分之二點四，請問一下有沒有達到？"],["邱部長泰源：其實在臺灣醫療水準這麼高的情況之下，如果有這樣的data，我們真的必須要深切檢討。"],["李委員坤城：的確要深切檢討，而且這是你們2020年的發展目標，現在是2024年，結果就是沒有一個指標達到，到底原因出在哪裡？這4年做了什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我想國民健康署應該針對這個部分做了很多探討，是不是請吳署長說明？"],["吳署長昭軍：第一個，我們就孕婦死亡率的部分分析，因為我們的孕產婦數量，就是所謂的母數下降的速度遠比死亡的……"],["李委員坤城：不要說統計數字。署長，你們做了什麼？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們的推估最主要是從孕婦懷孕時的產檢，就次數、風險進行評估。第二個是高風險的孕產婦，我們有一些追蹤計畫進行輔導，早產的媽媽，我們也有相關的支持系統。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！那為什麼4年過去了，這些數字都沒有達標，不管是降低孕婦的死亡率或降低新生兒死亡率，這4年來都沒有達標。邱部長，你們有沒有一個比較具體的目標？賴總統說要做到健康臺灣，要提高嬰兒的出生率，但是我們連降低嬰兒的死亡率，到目前為止還沒辦法做到。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。這個也是我們健康臺灣計畫的兩大重點，第一個，在孕產婦的第一孕期、第二孕期、第三孕期，甚至是產後的第四孕期，我們都有提出策略。另外一個重要的指標，就是我們希望把新生兒的死亡率從千分之五點多降到千分之四以下，這也是我們未來的目標，在這個目標之下，我們會檢討所有……"],["李委員坤城：你們達到這個目標需要多久時間？"],["邱部長泰源：我們預計4年內至少要下降到OECD的前半段。"],["李委員坤城：所以呢？你們有沒有達到2020年的目標？本席只問這個就好，有沒有辦法達到？"],["邱部長泰源：新生兒死亡率降低這個目標沒有達到。"],["李委員坤城：對。本席是問你們未來4年有沒有辦法達到？因為這是2020年的目標嘛！本席只是問，這個2020年的目標，賴總統執政的這4年有沒有辦法達到？"],["邱部長泰源：我相信以現在大家的體認和團結，以及為臺灣醫療指標努力的決心，而且也和專家做過詳細討論，應該可以達到我們的目標。"],["李委員坤城：因為日本和韓國，不管孕婦或是新生兒的死亡率都比我們低。你們能不能提出研究報告？其實日本和韓國的生活條件等等都和我們差不多，至於我們的醫療水準，本席覺得比他們還要好，但是我們的孕婦和新生兒死亡率為什麼還是比他們高？請你們去做研究，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是，好，沒問題。"],["李委員坤城：我們至少要和這兩個國家比較，看看有什麼可以改善的地方，我們稍微檢討、研究一下，好不好？如果已經有報告，請你提供給我們參考。"],["邱部長泰源：好。如果有報告我們就提供，如果沒有的話，我們趕快委託專家研究。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，謝謝部長。接續請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:05:26","end_time":"2024-10-09T12:03:34+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155337","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","duration":326,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:58:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a464059d387feb594b46d19fd1690e0d4f89a95c2b8a967612e4e34333fe8e0c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.20221875,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.585968750000003,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.79221875,"end":23.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.11159375,"end":26.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.039093750000003,"end":29.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.69721875,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.43971875,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.080343750000004,"end":35.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.64471875,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.555968750000005,"end":44.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.665343750000005,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.87159375,"end":52.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.680968750000005,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.055968750000005,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.642218750000005,"end":59.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.56596875,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.080343750000004,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.721593750000004,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.025343750000005,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.14721875000001,"end":67.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.63221875,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.04971875000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.03159375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.58409375000001,"end":91.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.91096875000001,"end":97.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.94471875,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.21846875,"end":96.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.65284375,"end":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蔡黨委員先中委員不好意思我再宣告一下今天上午質詢到因為謝一鳳委員已經到場今天上午質詢到謝一鳳委員質詢結束我們休息到兩點半再繼續開會"},{"start":29.813,"end":31.694,"text":"農損救濟跟農業設施這是凱米颱風、屏東損失、農損破4億在7月份的時候是不是全國最多的?"},{"start":56.991,"end":61.248,"text":"應該是齁那請問從7月到現在這個救助已經都發出去了嗎?"},{"start":62.148,"end":91.004,"text":"我們大概我們預估的進來大概是49億然後現在播了大概16億吧21億20幾億那有一部分是因為公所限補還沒送上來那我們原則是送上來3天之內我們就會播放來那個部長您給我們一個很清楚的流程民眾在問我們要告訴他還是公所還沒送啦還是館長還沒送啦還是農業部還沒播清楚給我們知道好不好是不是下個月之前都全部可以領得到"},{"start":92.999,"end":93.98,"text":"請問這次救助項目什麼時候公布?"},{"start":115.277,"end":136.35,"text":"現在我們正在開專家會議然後開專家會議開完以後確認以後最快今天質詢結束以後我會回去簽或者是明天早上一定會公告上週六你有陪同卓院長到我們枋寮到我們佳東雖然你沒有到我的選區裡來我還是去陪同也去了解農民關係的問題我端蓋太順了有穿過這次我們就想知道可以穿不穿"},{"start":139.856,"end":162.181,"text":"這個要看你的作物是不是同一個產期,如果說葉菜類的話,不在同一個產期是可以的。所以說,如果是短期作物已經復耕就可以重複申請,如果短期作物受損還沒復耕就無法申請,但是長期作物哪些品項可以申請?我們現在目前就是,我們正在重新去調整,過往都是以歷年制,歷年過一個年,那現在就是說我們希望說,"},{"start":163.499,"end":167.283,"text":"在同一個產期不能重複領那不同產期就可以"},{"start":179.515,"end":190.186,"text":"這個香蕉的部分我們可能還要再去處理,實際的處理,因為香蕉有新植有新芽的部分,那這個會比較複雜。屏東就是香蕉太順暢嚴重,我繼續問下去,除了農損之外,還有什麼?我請教署長你要了解,有什麼種香蕉的,有一張香蕉一隻阿公,香蕉條,有兩張用一支,你知不知道什麼原因?"},{"start":204.517,"end":211.383,"text":"有的是牙管 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客運公司嘛"},{"start":29.048,"end":29.809,"text":"今天要談的是榮英遺孤的認養活動"},{"start":52.172,"end":61.721,"text":"緣起是本席選區的一個感人的故事這本席選區的選民就在這個退輔會工作那他本身也是榮眷那當然就響應這個退輔會的這個既有的這個計劃那就就認養了一個榮民遺孤這一例認養就是數十年"},{"start":70.849,"end":99.108,"text":"到他成年按照規定你在認養的期間你是不可以跟他相見的因為這個會有倫理的問題所以這個遺孤一直都只知道認養人的名字但都不聞其人一直到今年已經28歲透過臉書找人趕恩之旅一樣就找到這個這位認養人認養人就終於跟跟他們相遇那認養的榮券跟被認養的人就相遇了約出來一起吃飯這雙方見面吃飯過程其實非常"},{"start":100.529,"end":128.112,"text":"那這是一個小事但我覺得這是一件很棒的事情本席也是榮民之後我的爺爺也是榮民那我非常希望這樣子的一個好的溫暖的故事能夠擴大來處理所以我現在知道退服會有沒有處長副處長級以上的官員應該都要響應政策都有認養的習慣那當然大部分的認養人也都有榮民榮眷的身份請問這個主委知不知道現在這個被認養的榮民遺孤有多少人"},{"start":128.891,"end":152.266,"text":"我們現在目前被認養農民遺孤的577個人他每個月可以得到多少錢每個月認養金是3000塊3000塊對不對其實就是一個一般來講你有一點點餘裕的人都可以發揮愛心的一個很好的一個機制那請問主委知不知道現在我們當然希望這不是只是對輔會的事也不是只是我們農營的事情對不對是希望社會大眾來共同參與所以說推動這個農民來做認養以外社會大眾的參與狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":158.089,"end":176.944,"text":"目前到9月份社會人士以及團體任養有1767個人次那捐款的金額是1145萬元那榮民券還有本會我們所屬以及我們自己的投資事業經理人捐款捐了1116萬總TOTAL是2261萬"},{"start":180.666,"end":204.107,"text":"所以大概一年會有兩千多萬﹖而且是到九月而已甚至高於兩千多萬你這個社會人士跟退府會自己響應的自己響應的這樣的比例按照你今年的數據來講差不多是一半一半社會大狀態捐一千多萬我們自己退府會的跑者捐一千多萬那前幾年的數據有沒有掌握這個有沒有在變化還是屬於一個恆定的狀態公務委員報告"},{"start":207.452,"end":213.164,"text":"這個狀況是一直很穩定我們也都一直很持續的一直在踴躍的鼓勵社會大眾跟我們榮民、榮軍來那樣遺孤"},{"start":214.966,"end":238.301,"text":"所以大概比例都是社會人士一半退伏會自己的人的一半我們現在希望是什麼第一個總量當然越多越好那當然你退伏會你的人數是不會變的相對來講待遇也是不會變的維繫這樣的愛情很好但我們能夠做的事情是多找幾個這樣子的案例比如說認養成功的案例寫一寫感人的故事做一做宣傳鼓勵更多人社會大眾來認養而且不要讓大家覺得說這只是榮民榮券去認養遺孤這樣子"},{"start":241.323,"end":257.338,"text":"指限於榮民這個圈子裡面的事情我們應該是要鼓勵大家社會大眾好的案例對社會大眾好的案例要引入那第二個你按照這個數據算一下因為你剛剛有講嘛這個我們大概一年移國人數被鎮養人數577人一個月3000塊乘起來一年的支出是1300"},{"start":258.999,"end":281,"text":"多萬?是不是?一千七百多萬左右?要兩千?兩千一百?大概兩千萬左右那你到今年九月其實已經收到超過兩千萬對不對?那加上這幾年這個物價也都上漲我們講說從照顧弱勢的角度我們第一方面要開源讓更多的人願意響應這樣的計畫把這個金額增加那二方面也希望可以與時均稍微著漲啦"},{"start":282.381,"end":282.501,"text":"是是"},{"start":295.475,"end":295.815,"text":"我們會在各項活動的時候來做宣導"},{"start":318.66,"end":338.08,"text":"謝偉"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:56:40 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12:02:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155336","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時56分）謝謝主席，嚴主委有請。"],["主席：有請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，雖然我們與鍾佳濱委員的黨派立場不同，有時候常常吵架，但剛剛他提出讓退除役官兵接受職業駕駛的職業訓練，這一點本席非常非常贊同，我認為那是非常好的idea。我也要提醒一下，退輔會有投資欣欣客運公司，因此，關於職業駕駛的需求及實際上訓練可能會造成的一些狀況，你可以去向欣欣公司做個了解，你就會對這個東西中間的一些摩擦或困難都有更深刻的了解，我們希望這件事情能夠盡快地促成。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，盡快促成。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛聽到了就補充一下。","今天我要談的是榮民遺孤的認養活動，緣起是本席選區的一個感人的故事。本席選區的選民就在退輔會工作，他本身也是榮眷，當然就響應退輔會既有的計畫，於是就認養了一個榮民遺孤，而且一認養就是數十年，一直到他成年。按照規定在認養期間不可以與他相見，因為會有倫理的問題，所以這個遺孤一直都只知道認養人的名字，但都不聞其人。一直到今年已經28歲，透過臉書找人，就像是感恩之旅一樣，找到了這位認養人。這位榮眷認養人就與被認養人相遇了，而且約出來一起吃飯，雙方見面吃飯的整個過程都非常感動，這是一件小事，但我覺得這是一件很棒的事。本席也是榮民之後，我的爺爺也是榮民，所以我非常希望這樣好的、溫暖的故事能夠擴大處理。","現在我知道退輔會處長、副處長級以上的官員都要響應政策，都有認養的習慣，當然大部分的認養人也都有榮民榮眷的身分，請問主委知不知道現在被認養的榮民遺孤有多少人？"],["嚴主任委員德發：目前被認養的榮民遺孤有577個人。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們每個月可以得到多少支持？"],["嚴主任委員德發：每個月的認養金是3,000元。"],["牛委員煦庭：3,000元，對不對？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：一般來講，有點餘裕的人都可以發揮愛心的一個很好的機制。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問主委知不知道現在……當然我們希望這個不只是退輔會的事，也不只是我們榮民的事情，對不對？是希望社會大眾也能夠共同參與，所以除了推動榮民認養之外，社會大眾的參與狀況是怎麼樣？"],["嚴主任委員德發：目前到9月份，社會人士以及團體認養有1,767個人次，捐款的金額是1,145萬元，榮民眷、本會所屬以及我們自己的投資事業經理人捐款金額是1,116萬元，總total是2,261萬元。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以一年大概會有二千多萬元，而且這個金額是算到9月而已嘛！"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：甚至會高於二千多萬元，對不對？"],["嚴主任委員德發：通常會高。"],["牛委員煦庭：社會人士與退輔會、榮民榮眷自己響應的比例，按照你今年的數據來講，差不多是一半一半。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，一半一半。"],["牛委員煦庭：你說社會大眾捐了一千多萬元，退輔會的袍澤也捐了一千多萬元，前幾年的數據有沒有掌握？這個有沒有在變化，還是它是屬於一個恆定的狀態？補充說明一下。"],["曹處長東發：報告委員，這個狀況一直是很穩定，我們也都一直持續地鼓勵社會大眾及我們的榮民榮眷踴躍認養遺孤。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以比例上大概都是社會人士一半、退輔會自己的人一半？"],["曹處長東發：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們現在希望是什麼？第一個，總量當然是越多越好，但是退輔會的人數是不會變的，相對來講，待遇也是不會變的，能夠維繫現況已經很好，因此我們能夠做的事情是多找幾個這樣的案例，譬如認養成功的案例，寫寫感人的故事、做做宣傳，鼓勵更多的社會大眾來認養，而且不要讓大家覺得只限於榮民榮眷去認養遺孤、只限於榮民這個圈子裡面的事情，我們應該要提供社會大眾好的案例。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們鼓勵大家共襄盛舉。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你要將社會大眾好的案例引入嘛！第二個，按照這個數據算一下，剛剛你有講一年被認養的遺孤人數是577人，一個月3,000元，乘起來一年的支出是一千三百多萬，是不是？一千七百多萬左右。"],["曹處長東發：要2,100萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概是2,000萬元左右。"],["曹處長東發：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你知道今年到9月為止其實已經收到超過2,000萬元，對不對？加上這幾年的物價也都上漲，我們從照顧弱勢的角度，第一方面要開源，讓更多人願意響應這樣的計畫，增加這個金額；第二方面也希望能夠與時俱進，稍微酌漲，也多照顧一些被認養人。我覺得你收的款子越多、給出越多，其實是剛剛好啦！當然是量入為出，但是我們要將收入的部分增加，是不是可以請退輔會這邊做一下安排？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：時間也有限，做一下安排，怎麼樣擴大社會參與，大概有什麼樣的目標？譬如提高社會的占比達到60%，或是當捐款達到多少的時候，認養金可以增加到比如3,500元或是怎麼樣，會後可以擬出一套計畫，讓本席參考嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我們會在各項活動時進行宣導。"],["牛委員煦庭：宣導是一定要的，但是相對也要在政策上做一下思考，看看能不能擴大參與。我是建議找一下那種後面有相認的例子，因為我覺得那樣的故事穿透力是很強的，比起硬性地宣導法條什麼的，恐怕會更有效果，好不好？做一些政策建議。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，擴大參與。"],["牛委員煦庭：也鼓勵啦！這是好事，好不好？小事當好事。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：請主委加油，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，主委請回。","接下來蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧，蘇巧慧委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","吳思瑤、吳思瑤，吳思瑤委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","麥玉珍、麥玉珍，麥玉珍委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場者之外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有麥玉珍委員、邱志偉委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩周內答復。委員口頭質詢時未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩周內提供；委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:04:36","end_time":"2024-10-09T12:01:39+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155335","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","duration":276,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:57:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a34a017450c0754174cc4e7309f7945e5f89a95c2b8a9676100ff06c9c86dfe3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.26284375,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.181593750000001,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.18971875,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":29.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.39346875,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.180343750000006,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.89659375,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.02409375,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.74534375,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.49471875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.35034375000001,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.75096875,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.94909375,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.33096875000001,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.02346875,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.61346875,"end":137.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.35971875,"end":140.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.32971875,"end"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IKL一樣各種國際組織一樣都沒有必要性反正透過外圍或者是透過合作的方式或者是用中華電信與新加坡的合作模式或者用科研用的可行為科學研究及實驗之特殊保留評斷就可以解決我們不需要實質參與我們不需要進入這樣子的ITU"},{"start":72.828,"end":97.947,"text":"其實不需要直接進入啦其實我們長期以來ITU的任何的活動我們透過我們的法人機構以及產業界都有實質的參與所以我們也不需要參與UN也不需要參與WHA只要透過其他的合作就能夠達成實質參與的目的我們是在不得已的狀況之下我們是在不得已的狀況之下但是商用的低軌衛星因為需要使用專攻商用排除他人的安老的頻寬"},{"start":98.848,"end":120.282,"text":"﹗"},{"start":120.342,"end":136.262,"text":"在發展6G通訊衛星怎麼樣可以透過合作的模式來去達成我們想要達到的實質參與這樣的困境我們該怎麼處理是我們現在在策略上就是會跟美國日本合作那跟美國日本合作因為我們自己也沒有相關的經驗"},{"start":137.503,"end":137.623,"text":"蘇柱惟"},{"start":159.289,"end":174.236,"text":"但是我還是要再講一件事情就是說當我問這個問題的時候你回答不會的話其實對我們未來參與外交的國際組織是有傷害的我們要盡我們所有的能力去參與我們不僅僅要實質參與我們要能夠加入這樣子的這種國際聯盟相關的組織我們不能夠放棄所以當你說"},{"start":180.612,"end":209.98,"text":"不會,不會影響的話其實是有點影響的謝謝委員提醒的的確但是我本意不是說都沒有問題我們沒有在質疑你的善意我只是說以後我們的延遲上面大概是要注意一下好謝謝謝謝沒有什麼對我錯因為台灣的現在的國際環境處境之下我們本來就是會遇到這樣的困難就是說用這個限制我們還是很努力要謝謝主要就是要向你表達這件事情以後被問到類似的狀況的時候千萬不要說不會沒有影響"},{"start":212.321,"end":231.227,"text":"主委除了評普分配之外還有一個部分就是火箭發射的部分我們不是ITU的成員所以我們無法在發射火箭前來去送交提前公布資料或者是協調請求書給ITU那這樣的狀況之下我們要如何確保我們能夠推動入軌火箭計畫的登記順利進行"},{"start":234.13,"end":248.223,"text":"的確就是因為有這個困難所以我們才需要跟美國來合作那也希望說這種合作逐步會讓台灣有機會只要我們做得好的話將來有機會突破這個困境也許就可以直接加入這個國際組織"},{"start":250.024,"end":271.101,"text":"最後主委我還是再提到就是說我們現在1999年到現在發射的22顆衛星在聯合國系統是被標註成台灣Providence of China這個部分所以我剛剛一直在強調就是說我們必須要把這個態度做出來因為不能夠就是說沒有辦法我們就不去做嘗試好不好好謝謝陳委員好謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:57:03 - 12:01:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155335","gazette":{"lineno":958,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時57分）你好，我們請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。主委，臺灣不是國際電信聯盟成員，會不會影響我國的太空發展？"],["吳主任委員誠文：到目前為止還沒有這個問題，因為我們過去從最早期的類比通訊，到2G、3G、4G到現在5G，我們其實都有實質地參與標準制訂的過程，在當中去瞭解，我們也在一些部分有貢獻。"],["陳委員冠廷：通訊衛星使用的無線及微波的頻寬，是為了避免訊號干擾，ITU根據國際電聯組織法的第四條會主責協助全球無線電的頻率分配跟跨國頻率協調，如果說臺灣被排除在國際體制之外，要怎麼樣保障我們發展6G次世代通訊的權益？你的意思是說ITU跟臺灣爭取參與WHO、UN、ICAO等各種國際組織一樣，都沒有必要性，反正透過外圍或者是透過合作的方式、或者是用中華電信與新加坡的合作模式、或者是用科研用的可循為科學研究及實驗之特殊保留頻段，就可以解決，我們不需要實質參與，我們不需要進入這樣子的ITU？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實不需要直接進入啦！其實我們長期以來ITU的任何活動我們都透過我們的法人機構以及產業界，都有實質的參與。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們也不需要參與UN，也不需要參與WHA，只要透過其他的合作，就能夠達成實質參與的目標？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是在不得已的狀況之下。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們是在不得參與的狀況之下，但是商用的低軌衛星，因為需要使用專供商用、排除他人干擾的頻寬，還是必須要透過ITU，與其他國家進行協調交涉，才能夠完成使用登記嘛，現在的余憲政副主任已經在2021年受訪的時候表達說，臺灣以往參與的經驗可能沒有辦法複製在通訊衛星的頻寬協調上面，所以想請教主委，在這樣子的狀況之下，臺灣在發展6G通訊衛星時，怎麼樣可以透過合作的模式，來去達成我們想要達到的實質參與？這樣的困境，我們該怎麼處理？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。我們現在策略上就是會跟美國、日本合作，那跟美國、日本合作，因為我們自己也沒有相關的經驗，所以跟他們合作以後，我們在衛星的架構和規格，因為我們自己晶片的產業很強，我們也希望發展晶片來跟他們合作，對他們也有利，對我們也有利，所以將來這些規格會跟我們合作非常成熟的國家，像美國，會來協助我們發展相關的產業。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝主委，但是我還是要再講一件事情，當我問這個問題的時候，你回答「不會」的話，其實對我們未來參與外交的國際組織是有傷害的，我們要盡我們所有的能力去參與，我們不僅僅要實質參與，我們要能夠加入這樣子的國際聯盟相關組織，我們不能夠放棄，所以當你說不會影響的話，其實是有一點影響的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員提醒。的確，但是我本意不是說都沒有問題啦。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們沒有在質疑你的善意，我只是說以後我們的言詞上面大概是要注意一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：我問這個沒有什麼對或錯，因為臺灣現在的國際環境處境之下，我們的確就是會遇到這樣的困難。"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是說有這個限制，我們還是很努力要做。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。主要就是要向你表達這件事情，以後被問到類似狀況的時候，千萬不要說「不會」、「沒有影響」。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係。","主委，除了頻譜分配之外，還有一個部分就是火箭發射的部分，我們不是ITU的成員，所以我們無法在發射火箭前送交提前公布資料或協調請求書給ITU，在這樣的狀況之下，我們要如何確保我們能夠推動入軌火箭計畫的登記順利進行？"],["吳主任委員誠文：的確就是因為有這個困難，所以我們才需要跟美國來合作，也希望這種合作會逐步讓臺灣有機會，只要我們做得好的話，將來有機會突破這個困境，也許就可以直接加入這個國際組織。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，最後主委，我還是要再次提到，我們從1999年到現在發射的22顆衛星，在聯合國系統是被標註成「Taiwan, province of China」，所以我剛剛一直在強調，我們必須要把這個態度做出來，不能夠說沒有辦法，我們就不去嘗試，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳冠廷委員。主委先請回。","接下來我們有請何欣純委員。何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員。蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","請高金素梅委員。高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","請林楚茵委員。林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員。徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","請蘇巧慧委員。蘇巧慧委員，蘇巧慧委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請邱志偉委員。邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","報告委員會，今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另有張嘉郡委員、邱志偉委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:04:54","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:58:01+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155334","委員名稱":"黃建賓","duration":294,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:53:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a830ebd42c86cc1b8b46d19fd1690e0d4f89a95c2b8a967613a469af2c92659b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.94096875,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.67471875,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.480343750000003,"end":14.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.17534375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.00221875,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.14971875,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.153468750000002,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.000968750000002,"end":30.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.77659375,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.59909375,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.758468750000006,"end":45.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.18409375,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.204718750000005,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.596593750000004,"end":53.828468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.064718750000004,"end":57.304718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.760343750000004,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.02971875,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.83534375000001,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.38784375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":70.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.43346875,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.40346875,"end":74.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.36096875,"end":77.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.44909375,"end":81.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.55409375,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.34721875000001,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.38471875,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.27034375000001,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.16034375000001,"end":91.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.03346875000001,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.80846875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.02784375,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.93034375,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.00346875000001,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.47596875,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.24346875,"end":127.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.39534375000001,"end":125.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.04909375000001,"end":127.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.13346875,"end":127.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.99409375000002,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.82909375,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.90909375,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.86659375000002,"end":136.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.76909375,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.60846875000001,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.41846875000002,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.33284375000002,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.28971875000002,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.39846875,"end":177.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.60659375,"end":184.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.17159375,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.89659375000002,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.76971875,"end":188.17034375},{"speaker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中央會撥相關的經費來協助謝謝部長 部長 再最後一次來補充這個都是一角而已 因為這是目前清道的部分可以看得到的山上還有很多地方還沒有被發現那還不包括整個野溪河床的淤積的沙子的清淤的部分這部分再請部長能夠來盡力的協助臺東縣政府"},{"start":288.263,"end":288.284,"text":"黃建賓議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:53:07 - 11:58:01","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155334","gazette":{"lineno":941,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（11時53分）謝謝主席，有請我們農業部的陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好。部長，本席在前天也有來經濟委員會這邊質詢，其實最主要的還是針對這次山陀兒颱風對臺東造成的傷害，希望各部會能來協助。部長，你來自基層，我相信你也非常了解農民的辛苦，農民看天吃飯，收入又不穩定。這次山陀兒颱風重創臺東縣的南迴地區，很多的農地，很多機具都被土石流無情的沖走、掩埋，災民也非常辛苦，他苦苦等著中央來協助。像我們的總統也去了他金山跟萬里的老家，部長陪行政院長到屏東勘災，副院長去了朱銘美術館，不過，災害發生到現在，我們還沒有看到哪一個中央部會的首長有來臺東關心，不禁讓很多臺東人感慨，我們身在這塊土地上，同樣是這塊土地上的一分子，感受到的卻是三等公民的待遇。部長，你身為我們農業的大家長，臺東的縣民都期待你來臺東勘災，本席在這個禮拜五也會邀請相關部會到臺東勘災，早上原民會主委也答應本席，部長可不可以一起下來？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，我跟委員說明，我們的勘災，特別是臺東地區，它受災最嚴重的是在太麻里地區，還有鳳梨釋迦，鳳梨釋迦是有一些延遲性的部分……"],["黃委員建賓：是。"],["陳部長駿季：至於禮拜五的勘災，因為禮拜五的總質詢剛好輪到經濟委員會，所以總質詢的時候我們農業部必須在院會，所以可能沒辦法參加。"],["黃委員建賓：沒關係，部長，你如果沒時間，可以請其他的……"],["陳部長駿季：我可以請我們的次長去參加。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。部長，這次的颱風豪大雨在臺東縣造成很嚴重的農損，像高雄市陳其邁市長也說，要跟中央積極地爭取全品項的現金救助，剛剛部長也說，明天全品項的救助都會全部公布出來，對不對？現金的部分都會公布，對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會根據今天早上我們次長召開的專家會議的決議，一旦確定了以後，我們最慢今天或者是明天早上就會公布。可是，據我們掌握的訊息，臺東這次的雨非常的多，但是它現在目前災損的情況，其實沒有高屏，當然有受損，但是比起高屏來講，高屏最主要是風，那個風的影響是非常大的。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，因為現在都還在搶修當中，所以還沒有正確的數據……"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們也希望……"],["黃委員建賓：所以，部長，本席也要求是不是就比照辦理就好，未來如果真的有損害，是不是能夠比照？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們公告的標準是一致性的，不會因不同的地方有不同的標準，臺東地區我剛才說了，臺東地區有一些延遲性的災損，現在是看不到的，後續如果真正的有災損發生的時候，我們也會公告。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。部長，在風災過後，我們臺東農改場有發一篇新聞呼籲農友儘快的復耕，本席也支持希望趕快復耕減少損害，但是，部長，不是農民要復耕就可以，它的先決條件是什麼？農路要通，路要先通。部長，這是昨天本席到太麻里看到的畫面，這個農路都毀損了，而且土石嚴重堆積，受災的部分還不只農路，很多農地也被沖刷，原本河川的治理線都已經越過了，整個釋迦園都是土石，根本沒辦法復耕，這部分要請部長能夠多增加一些預算來協助臺東縣這次災害的復建。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個就是農水路的修繕部分，在農業部的權責範圍之內，我們一定會協助。第二個就是針對這次颱風的部分，行政院有請縣市政府將颱風所造成的道路損害提報到中央，中央會撥相關的經費來協助。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長。部長，本席再最後一次補充，這些都是冰山一角而已，因為這是目前清到、可以看得到的部分，山上還有很多地方還沒有被發現，還不包括整個野溪河床所淤積的沙石需要清淤的部分，這部分再請部長能夠來盡力的協助臺東縣政府。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長的允諾，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員，謝謝。部長請回座。下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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因為我們說我們現在說中文的人士還是比較多再來就是最大的族群就是我們台灣人台灣人的比例要再來到31.7但是在我們客裏的比例是1.5%這比例還是偏低但是我說過去"},{"start":199.318,"end":225.125,"text":"我都是這樣說你說要求他們去講客語就是我們現在的年齡層差不多60歲以上但是你在年輕的一輩在外面我們跟他們在一起的話很多人在講客家語言所以說這是未來我們要提供你說到底要提供你一定要有誘因包括說你一個客語的認證你認證"},{"start":227.646,"end":248.494,"text":"下來你這認證有什麼作用?有什麼福利?什麼誘因?人家會說想要去扣這認證所以說你要針對這一點,因為好,我們一些社團我來補助你補助你,你要有多少的認證,我們才符合我們的資格"},{"start":249.094,"end":251.258,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":264.597,"end":276.624,"text":"是否在誘因的部分我們要去訴求你說補助的部分就是來你這個社團你在推廣你有多少的認證我們就拿這個成績來給予補助"},{"start":279.885,"end":283.328,"text":"感謝委員 莫不出乎我們要充足行核度的年齡：還有行核度的條件本屬於人 年齡來學習我們努力去想要的辦法 想要委員講的誘因"},{"start":300,"end":321.627,"text":"好,因為我們針對這個你才有辦法去推廣,不然你說年輕一輩已經流失,是非常嚴重,你也沒辦法,我們常常都在討論,你沒有拿出一個誘因出來是絕對行不通,是不是,拜託及早。好,那我請回,好,那我請我們園民會主委。"},{"start":328.653,"end":354.491,"text":"委員好 主委好 主委再次的感謝你在我們三峽的客家園區旁邊我們的原住民部落現在已經都定案了但是他這個方面我們的原住民這個園區我們有去會刊但是你要去廣納他這個裡面的建制一定要把它作為完善一點"},{"start":355.872,"end":368.772,"text":"會開放給我們社區的民眾他們都來參與,我們投入這些錢才有用是,也希望這個附近的這個基金也都能夠用得上用得到"},{"start":371.146,"end":385.111,"text":"對,因為那個地方的地理環境是非常符合我們原住民：還有我們一些廣泛的民眾他們來使用,包含我們裡的他們的活動都可以廣納進來"},{"start":386.451,"end":387.472,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:52:46 - 11:59:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155333","gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時52分）召委、與會同仁、所有官員。我們請客委會主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：吳委員好！"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好！主委，今天針對我們的客家語言，依據111年8月22日核定的國家語言發展報告，應參酌國家語言整體發展方案，現在我們使用臺灣原住民族語言、臺灣客語、臺灣台語（更名為台語）、馬祖語，還有臺灣手語。","我們也知道，針對客家語言，我們在這幾年的推動並不是很理想，因為本席也看到，在我的選區，客家人的比例是外來人口最高，但是我的選區裡面很多年輕一輩的也都不會講客語，有講台語的、講國語的，這個比例比較高，而且客委會在社群平臺（像YouTube、IG）所推動的，我看觀看的人數也不多。現在已經是科技時代，是不是可以用AI的翻譯吸引年輕人？這樣我看這個比例應該還會再提高一點，是不是請主委來說明？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝吳委員，我很認同吳委員的說法，現在年輕人運用科技很熟悉、很方便，我們應該要利用科技把語言帶進來，所以我們今年9月有一個系統，這個系統就是客語的輸入法，接下來就剛剛委員說的，我們到年底有一個華語和客語的翻譯系統會出來，像這些都是提供給所有年輕人或是小孩子可以很方便去學習，或是未來走入日常生活，比如醫院、教學，或是長照系統，可以來運用。客語要流通，其實要進到我們的日常生活裡面，我很認同委員的說法，我們要就現代社會的變化來改變。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的、好的。因為現在講中文的人數還是比較多，再來最大的族群就是臺灣人，臺灣人的比例來到31.7%，講客語的比例是1.5%，這個比例還是偏低，過去我時常在說，我們現在講客語的年齡層差不多在60歲以上，我們跟年輕一輩一起在外面的話，很少人在講客家語言，所以未來我們要推廣。要推廣一定要有誘因，包括客語的認證，取得這個認證的話，有什麼作用？有什麼福利？什麼誘因？這樣他們才會想要考取這個認證，所以你要針對這一點，比如我們來補助一些社團，他們要多少人取得認證才符合我們的資格，這樣才能夠鼓勵他們來認證，鼓勵他們來學習，這樣才有辦法延續下去，不然，完全沒有誘因，我看也沒有人會去考取客語的認證，在誘因的部分，是不是我們要去思考？補助的部分就是社團去推廣，之後有多少人取得認證，我們就依據這個成績來給予補助，主委，是不是？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員，沒錯，我們要創造更多的誘因，還有更多的條件，讓所有的人願意來學習，就委員說的誘因，我們來努力、來想辦法。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，針對這個你才有辦法去推廣，不然年輕一輩會說客語的逐漸流失，還是非常嚴重，你也沒辦法我們常常都在這裡討論，你沒有拿出一個誘因出來絕對行不通，是不是？拜託主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該的，感謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，你請回。我請原民會主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好！"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好！主委，再次的感謝你，三峽客家園區旁邊的原住民部落現在都已經定案了……"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：這個園區我們有去會勘，你們要廣納，裡面的建置一定要做得完善一點，也開放給社區的民眾都來參與，這樣我們投入這些錢才有用。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，希望附近的居民也都能夠用得上、用得到。"],["吳委員琪銘：對、對、對，因為那個地方的地理環境非常適合我們原住民還有廣泛的民眾來使用，包含里內活動都可以廣納進來，因為在三峽北大那個地方其實也沒有什麼很寬闊的場地，還有我們的園區裡面可以讓他們來活動，不管是舞蹈或是任何老人的活動，我們都要極力開放給他們來一起參與。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，會。"],["吳委員琪銘：好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝，辛苦你了！謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。","我們現在來處理臨時提案，共1案，請宣讀。","經查，原住民族委員會曾智勇Ljaucu．Zingrur主任委員於今年9月26日至10月3日以總統特使身分赴帛琉共和國出席該國獨立30週年相關慶典暨系列活動。","為履行國會監督之職責，台灣民眾黨團於2024年10月1日行文請原住民族委員會提供曾智勇Ljaucu．Zingrur主任委員赴帛琉共和國之完整行程列表，惟原住民族委員會僅於2024年10月8日提供外交部2份新聞稿，拒不提供完整行程列表，亦無任何正式書面說明無法提供之依據，執意隱匿、規避監督。","為避免政府預算遭濫用，請原住民族委員會洽外交部於一週內將曾智勇Ljaucu．Zingrur主任委員赴帛琉共和國之完整行程列表及行程支出明細送交內政委員會，以落實國會監督。","提案人：麥玉珍　　高金素梅　翁曉玲　　黃國昌　　黃建賓"],["主席：臨時提案照案通過，請問各位委員有沒有意見？請張宏陸召委。"],["張委員宏陸：不好意思，主席，我對內容要求提供行程沒有意見，但我覺得有一些文字我們是不是修一下？比如說「拒不提供完整行程列表」，我覺得應該把它劃掉，因為那是要外交部提供，也不是原民會，我覺得不需要這樣。再來，建議修正為「行程列表及行程支出明細送交內政委員會，但以機密文件處理」，因為我覺得這也是涉外的關係，還是要有點保密，我們不是不給委員看，但要有機密的處理。"],["主席：就本席的了解，這個好像他們雙方已經有互相溝通協調過，原民會主委好像也沒意見，也簽名了，所以這個部分如果原民會主委都沒有意見的話，是不是……","我們請麥玉珍委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：是的，因為我們也跟原民會主委溝通過，他也同意了，有改過的就是請原住民族委員會洽外交部於一週內將主委的行程給我們，他也同意，這個我們已經達成共識了，所以這個是沒有問題的，以上報告。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，你確定嗎？你說一下，你確定？"],["麥委員玉珍：施壓。你確定，但是委員施壓，你要不要確定？"],["張委員宏陸：不要亂講話，我哪有施壓？這個不是私底下開玩笑的，不能這樣講，我反對你這樣講，我們私底下開玩笑可以，現在是在開會，你不能這樣說我施壓，這樣不對。我是委員，我請他說明是我的權利，什麼叫我施壓？不可以這樣講。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝主席，我想是這樣，我們會洽外交部來提供行程，但是前面這個是不是就不要？我們沒有拒絕啦！因為我是以特使的身分出去的。"],["高金委員素梅：不要再說「特使」這兩個字了，曾主委，我知道你是特使，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：真的是特使。"],["高金委員素梅：可是人家的獨立慶典是10月1號，你幾號去的？你告訴大家，你幾號去的，你26號就去了，你知道嗎？而且26號同行的也有你們副主委，人家1號才國慶，你26號那麼早去，你要幹嘛？你避掉總質詢……"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我還沒有請你講話。你要避掉總質詢是不是？你避掉總質詢是要避掉禁伐補償這個最大的問題嗎？這是第一個。第二個，我還查了班機，你大可以總質詢結束後再去帛琉，因為禮拜六還有班機，而且我查了，沒有客滿。如果你心裡面真的覺得原住民的權益很重要的話，你應該針對25號主計長到我辦公室來說，希望原民會趕快盤點，你把你們覺得禁伐補償窒礙難行、不足的部分再提供給行政院院長來參考。你連這個都不願意做，你26號就去了，你心中還有主計長跟你講的話嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我可以講話嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：還沒，我還沒請你講，對不起。更何況今天的臨時提案上面講「拒不提供完整行程列表」，我早就請原民會提供給我了，你們就是拒不提供，這句話有哪一點不對？再來，請原住民族委員會洽外交部於一週內將曾智勇主委赴帛琉共和國的完整行程列表及行程支出明細送交內政委員會，以落實國會監督。這是你也同意的文字修正，你還有什麼意見？謝謝。你可以說話了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我說前面這個，我們願意洽外交部，但重點是我今天不是以原民會主委的身分出去的，我是以特使的身分出去，而且我再跟委員說明，它整個是獨立30週年系列的活動，不是只有10月1號，就像我們的國慶日……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，我懂啦！我懂、我懂、我懂，你是特使，你知不知道帛琉總統那幾天在哪裡啊？在臺灣，你特什麼使啊！你就直接提供你們為什麼提早去、跟誰去、花了多少錢，有不能提供的嗎？這有什麼機密可言？好了啦！你很大，你是總統的特使，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有說我很大，我是代表我們國家……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！我知道啦！你一直要強調你是特使嘛！我現在就請問你，你那麼早去幹什麼？帛琉總統還在臺灣，你那麼早去幹什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：他們有預先安排一些國務部的拜訪，還有……"],["高金委員素梅：預先？你已經有副主委去了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：副主委不是特使啊！"],["高金委員素梅：25號主計長在我的辦公室已經請你趕快，請問一下到現在你提供了沒有？你的副主委在那裡，你也去那裡，你覺得這樣OK嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我不是以原民會主委的身分去的嘛！"],["高金委員素梅：那你現在是什麼身分？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我當時是以特使身分去的。"],["高金委員素梅：那禁伐補償是不是你主委的業務？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是啊！"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！那為什麼主計總處叫你25號趕快提供，你也沒提供，26號的總質詢你就避掉，你這個不是避是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有避掉……"],["高金委員素梅：特使比較大是不是？原民會的禁伐補償預算你根本都不放在心裡是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有不放在心裡。"],["高金委員素梅：那很好，趕快提。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["主席：這個臨時提案照案通過，請問各位委員有沒有意見？好，如果沒有意見，我們就照案通過。","接著我們繼續質詢，請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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請李次長好 次長好那今天就你們所謂這個引起大家恐慌的這個規定齁我來這邊跟您做個意見交流下一頁 謝謝"},{"start":27.98,"end":42.273,"text":"延續剛才徐昭偉所講的更改名稱的急迫性跟引起民眾恐慌這個區塊我想跟您先請教依據國家語言發展法"},{"start":43.066,"end":65.425,"text":"然後你們有了這些規定那我想請教一下下面有一個臺灣手語是臺灣聽障語人世間使用的手勢及視覺表現出來的自然語言那下一張 謝謝我想請教一下那全世界在通用的手語跟臺灣手語的差別您可以跟我指教一下嗎"},{"start":66.744,"end":88.775,"text":"抱歉委員這個不是我的專業我無法回答或者我們可以再提供請專業人士來提供資料我想請專業人士會後有機會讓我們了解而且這是視覺語言你們可能不要用一個公文就了事所以我想要知道的是請問我們通用的手語跟臺灣手語的差別在哪裡那接下來"},{"start":90.711,"end":112.32,"text":"你們剛才這邊有談到台灣的語言發展法我相信很熟所以這邊談到的自然語言、台灣手語那請問你講了台灣的範圍我們在講世界通用的手語台灣用的手語那請問台澎金馬的手語算不算?台灣澎金馬的手語又跟台灣的手語差在哪裡?"},{"start":115.838,"end":140.55,"text":"這個部分我們當然是要用臺灣來泛指牌棚金馬這四個區域所通用的手語我們都稱之為臺灣手語那因為這些人沒有辦法發言所以如果你在臺、台、台語這件事情上引起這麼多的爭議那請問這些無法發言的用手語的人他要怎麼跟你講我剛才講的這些東西"},{"start":141.69,"end":165.818,"text":"那是你覺得泛指啊但是你在講臺灣的時候我們看到的只有所謂的臺灣那大家空間的想像就臺灣島嘛 對吧在名稱的這個議題上我們一直都有跟廳長或農人協會他們多段的溝通是跟他們溝通以後他們決定要用這個名詞我就現在不知道您的這個臺灣手語跟世界手語跟台澎金嘛在用的差別是什麼嘛這個部分今天請你回答"},{"start":166.878,"end":172.786,"text":"或者是會後提供資料好嗎好然後也做個參考然後接下來我想請教一下請問這個台什麼意思呃我不懂委員的您要詢問的啊那你告訴我下面一個台是什麼意思"},{"start":187.252,"end":205.15,"text":"在你們的第7頁第4個引起大家恐慌的臺灣台語第一個台是我們講的繁體字的台第二個台是簡體字的台那請問我為什麼要用簡體字的台來代表臺灣我的問題有兩個第一個臺灣然後再來台語請問這兩個台的差別在哪裡"},{"start":207.033,"end":211.899,"text":"所以你還沒有跟大家討論臺語就是一個專有名詞了嘛那剛才大家各界在討論的臺語難道就只有你們所講的閩南語嗎"},{"start":225.475,"end":226.897,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":246.479,"end":274.045,"text":"那你們已經列了第4點臺灣台語請告訴我這個臺跟那個臺的差別所以你如果說是專有名詞在我們都還沒有共同認同這個臺的時候它已經是你們認為的臺啊那我一直很confuse這個臺跟另外一個臺有什麼差別好接下來齁來再往下來那個次長要不要試唸一下RexRix不知道你說Rix嗎齁然後接下來這個"},{"start":277.318,"end":279.601,"text":"文化部次長講的我這講的其實是另外一個更大的議題然後接下來下一張"},{"start":302.74,"end":303.22,"text":"一、二、三、四"},{"start":324.83,"end":346.545,"text":"你怎麼會被他們都帶著走 我們羅馬拼音不是這麼唸的呀所以次長我要指出來的問題是上個會期你以為我在質詢原名相關的議題 所以你唸都不敢唸那我想請問一下原住民的系統是用哪種系統"},{"start":348.832,"end":378.127,"text":"語言的系統?羅馬拼音好,那臺語呢?你講的閩南語呢?我們目前在教育部裡面有四種表達方式有四種表達方式嗎?所以你,來,剛才那一頁你是不是念一勾、挖勾?對不對?然後主委,其實我們羅馬拼音是一桌一桌啊中間就有很大的差異這是我要指出來的問題你在語言教學的系統,你準備好了沒有?我跟你學的系統是很接近的啦"},{"start":379.264,"end":393.268,"text":"所以我要學族語的時候還很大的障礙所以教學系統這個系統的完整性、多樣性不是你們講說今天我要這樣子做就可以做的大家很多困難所以我延續剛才我們張偉講的"},{"start":395.009,"end":409.134,"text":"那你們臺語已經先界定它成專文有名詞再往下那請問那我們臺灣原住民語請問臺灣原住民族語言跟臺灣平鋪族群語言是什麼意思一個是民族語言然後一個是族群語言"},{"start":410.094,"end":426.846,"text":"你可以告訴我他們的差別在哪裡嗎這個部分是原住民委員會建議我們用這樣子來定名的你是主政的這個單位他們這樣子講你難道沒有研究到我剛才講的那麼多議題嗎好接下來請問你說得出來台灣這16組嗎好時間關係我們不要講了一下那這16組如果"},{"start":437.199,"end":461.788,"text":"你把閩南語當成是一個語言叫臺語那請問我是不是你如果一定要把臺灣關上去臺灣澳美族語、臺灣泰雅族語、臺灣葛馬蘭族語、臺灣卡拉卡拉夫我們為什麼難道你們覺得我們的人少就可以把我們全部概括叫做原住民語嗎那大家知道我們有這麼多族嗎你們在解決問題的時候常常把我們當成同一族在處理跟解決原鄉不一樣、都會不一樣"},{"start":464.463,"end":486.675,"text":"語言的概念上是不是也應該思考：而且如果是如同部長講的冰違語言：哪些語言更冰違：所以不要引起我們恐慌好不好大家說說看你把它檯面上 檯面化而且很單一的一個取向我們民族情感是被多大的傷害謝謝"},{"start":497.111,"end":497.131,"text":"好"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:44:15 - 11:52:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 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ko，中間就有很大的差異，這是我要指出來的問題，你在語言教學的系統準備好了沒有？我跟你學的系統是很接近的，我要學族語的時候還有很大的障礙，所以教學系統的完整性、多樣性不是你們講今天我要這樣子做就可以做的，大家有很多困難……"],["李次長靜慧：是。"],["林委員倩綺：我延續剛才我們召委講的，你們已經先界定「台語」成專有名詞，請問「臺灣原住民族語言」跟「臺灣平埔族群語言」是什麼意思？一個是「民族語言」，一個是「族群語言」，你可以告訴我它們的差別在哪裡嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分是原住民族委員會建議我們用這樣子來定名的，是不是可以請……"],["林委員倩綺：你是主政的單位，他們這樣子講，你難道沒有研究到我剛才講的那麼多議題嗎？","接下來，請問你說得出臺灣這16族嗎？時間關係，我們不要講了，是這16族，如果你把閩南語當成是一個語言，叫台語，如果你一定要把「臺灣」冠上去，為什麼不叫臺灣阿美族語、臺灣泰雅族語、臺灣噶瑪蘭族語、臺灣卡那卡那富族語，難道你們覺得我們的人少，就可以把我們全部概括叫做原住民語嗎？大家知道我們有這麼多族嗎？你們在解決問題的時候，常常把我們當成同一族處理及解決，但是原鄉不一樣，都會不一樣，語言的概念上是不是也應該思考？而且如果是如同次長講的瀕危語言，哪些語言更瀕危？所以不要引起我們恐慌，好不好？大家本來說的好好的，現在你把它檯面化，而且很單一的一個取向，我們的民族情感被多大的傷害！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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接下來三號人員的老主委在講啊你那個哈嘎的哈嘎維蘭福的主委啊安道的哈嘎的鄉親"},{"start":265.011,"end":272.016,"text":"臺語就已經動不滿你對嗎?所以你要強烈地跟我們行政院：還有你跟文化部也要強烈地來溝通,因為溝通：那些客家本身的民主好少,但是我們的立場你要站穩"},{"start":288.246,"end":293.069,"text":"其實我們兩個名稱都是建議所以我們就用我們的公法、社法來寫兩個名稱所以兩個名稱在說我們目前尤其是你怎麼不懂日啊?怎麼不懂日?臺灣台語要用的名稱怎麼不懂日?"},{"start":317.603,"end":345.379,"text":"我相信每一個群體每一個群體都有一些要主宗但你們要沙啡、分手、遵守你講的我就是全部遵守客家、鄉親、基督也遵守但是總得這個名稱上絕對不可以這樣好,我接著要講也請次長在如果你這樣定義下去其實我們發現有的時候在私下甚至在學校、同學之間"},{"start":346.499,"end":368.497,"text":"他說 你是臺灣人 那不可以說台語那不可以說的台語是什麼台語是什麼台語所以你會造成族群之間的一個衝突嘛所以我們真的希望這個一定要審慎而且剛剛我看很多委員也覺得大家要互相尊重本席在這邊還要表達"},{"start":370.851,"end":388.151,"text":"我們我相信李次長、谷主委還有本席本身我們小時候小時候我們說的國語我們認為的國家語言我們的國語我們一定那時候就是認為就是所謂的現在說的華文中文"},{"start":388.922,"end":417.47,"text":"但是後來就是因為族群大家要平等不能把客語、臺語叫做方言不是,都是國家語言所以我們認同,我們也尊重但是你不能現在對台灣人我現在臺語,我就是閩南語我就是喉嚨話,不行啦我也是半個喉嚨人講喉嚨話,我媽媽也是我一半協議也是這樣所以基於族群"},{"start":418.649,"end":441.829,"text":"平等還有我們特別提到在這個過去我們國家語言發展的會議上北區、東區的會議本席這邊的資料客家族群的抗議聲音你們都無視然後就這樣通過然後文化部這一次客家鄉親最氣憤的就是"},{"start":446.089,"end":455.103,"text":"在這個原本多年以來的閩南語語言能力認證考試現在全部改成臺灣台語認證考試"},{"start":458.086,"end":482.722,"text":"那這個所有的族群大家都有意見我相信原住民語原住民的委員原住民族的這些原住民的我們的同國人還有我們客家族群甚至很多剛剛黃建斌委員他也代表著說閩南語的族群大家都不認同這種定義所以我們希望"},{"start":483.757,"end":490.583,"text":"能夠大家互相尊重。請文化部不要專斷專行。然後,我們請客委會一定要為客家鄉親發聲。臺港對你的安保不滿,你日程會重申,你永遠在面對你的客家鄉親。臺港說你們出去了,做不得安養,你退表時的客家鄉親,你聽到嗎?"},{"start":512.632,"end":512.893,"text":"社盟委員會有強臺客"},{"start":515.734,"end":522.916,"text":"在內討論這件事：同臺價的上映：你的立場是臺價的副總主席：我的立場是臺價的副總主席：我就是遵從基礎：基礎做不成本：你客家人愛意節不行：原住民愛意節不行：你如果全部是臺灣的國家語言：作為少數的臺價普遍："},{"start":544.781,"end":551.969,"text":"臺灣的語言也會有合作：主委,你的立場還不對,還不夠：所以我們大家不滿,我代表的就是客家鄉親"},{"start":564.706,"end":565.607,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":579.465,"end":607.917,"text":"不好意思謝謝委員再給我一分鐘其實像剛剛委員所提到的在107年之前我們這整個臺灣社會對於國語的定義事實上就像我們現在說的這個語言是所謂的華語更精確來講可能就是當年的北京話然後也做了一些轉換可是在語言發展法之後我們現在對國語的定義它不再是國家語言的縮寫我們現在定義所有的臺灣固有族群使用的都是國家語言"},{"start":608.777,"end":615.86,"text":"所以台灣語言、台語不能夠只是閩南語我在這邊我要特別強調民進黨你過去你一直在爭取族群的融合你說轉型正義結果現在民進黨執政了然後就多數暴力多數霸凌少數我們不可諱言"},{"start":636.124,"end":657.576,"text":"所謂的閩南語的現在在台灣也算多數是最多數所以你既然掌握了權力結果你的族群平等竟然做出這樣讓大家痛心我要在這裡替少數的族群講話那既然如此按照你國語的這種定義你台語就要一樣的邏輯思維來定義才對"},{"start":661.26,"end":682.613,"text":"所以你不能台語讀後閩南語臺灣語言、臺語是我們共同生活在臺灣包含馬族語也是、原住民語也是甚至臺灣手語、客語、華語、閩南語都是這個HoloWay全部都是好不好好啦 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:32:33 - 11:43:59","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155331","gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時32分）謝謝主席，本席請客委會古主委，還有文化部李次長。"],["主席：古主委、李次長有請。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你好。剛剛牛委員已經問了，我也要問，客語是不是台語？我已經聽到古主委的答案了，你說要互相尊重，對啊！那既然互相尊重，為什麼台語就是閩南語，就是Holo話？我們客家人……臺灣語言，台語也是包含各種的語言，所以這個同樣問題，請李次長簡答。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提問，再次跟委員說明，台語目前是被定位為一個專有名詞，就是台語。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，請暫停、請暫停，為什麼特別定義台語是屬於閩南語或是所謂的Holo話？你竟然在我們的國家語言發展報告特別提醒，是你們制定的國家語言發展報告提醒，由於多數國家語言已經面臨傳承的危機，所以若再加上語言名稱的爭議，恐造成這些語言互相掣肘，更加速彼此消亡的速度，既然是為了母語的傳承，政府施政就不應該引起恐慌，更改名稱的急迫性並不是優先選項，還造成族群之間的衝擊。本席要在這邊代表我們客家鄉親、客家族群表達強烈的抗議。"],["李次長靜慧：收到，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個部分，我們希望大家互相尊重。"],["李次長靜慧：是的。當然定位、名稱，就是剛剛講的，我們從主人的這個概念上，也有很多的台語團體跟使用台語的民眾，希望他們的名稱能夠被定義下來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他希望被定義，但是這個定義，這就好比如果說中文的他希望定義中文就是國語，或是我客家人希望定義台語也就是客語，這個就會造成互相掣肘，以及族群之間的對立，政府施政不應該如此。我同步也要特別提醒客委會主委，你身為代表我們客家族群的最高行政官員，在我們客委會擔任主委，要替客家鄉親講話。互相尊重，我們當然互相尊重，其實我從小，我媽媽講台語，我爸爸講客家話，我父親家族全部講客家語，我母親家族全部講Holo話，所以兩邊大家都互相尊重，所以從小……沒有錯，我們在民間，我小時候台語就是閩南語，講得不是很好的時候，我舅舅也會說你的台語怎麼會講得不流利？所以在民間，台語就是閩南語，我們大概有這樣的俗稱沒有錯，但是你在國……等於政府這樣強制的，剛剛在很多的答詢裡面，你這樣強制的直接把台語就定義是閩南語，其實這個真的是很不恰當，所以我們要代表客家族群特別來抗議。","接下來我要跟主委講，你是客家委員會的主委，這麼多的客家鄉親，大家對你很不滿，你知道嗎？所以你要跟行政院還有文化部強烈的溝通，你要溝通，我們客家本身的人數好少，但是我們的立場你要站穩。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。其實這個名稱都是建議，我們用我們的講法、我們的寫法來寫這個名稱，所以這個名稱來說，我目前認為是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不能同意，不能同意臺灣台語這樣的名稱，不能同意才對。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想每一個群體都有他自己的主張，我認為這個社會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說的我全部知道，客家鄉親他們也知道，但是這個名稱上絕對不可以這樣。我接著要講，也提醒次長，如果你這樣定義下去，其實我們發現有的時候在私下，甚至在學校同學之間，他說你是臺灣人，怎麼不會說台語？不會說的台語是什麼台語？這會造成族群之間的衝突，所以我們真的希望這個一定要審慎，而且剛剛我看很多委員也覺得大家要互相尊重。本席在這邊還要表達，我相信李次長、古主委還有本席本身，我們小時候說的國語，我們認為的國家語言，我們的國語，那時候一定認為就是現在說的華文、中文，但是後來就是因為族群大家要平等，不能把客語、台語叫做方言，不是！都是國家語言，所以我們認同，我們也尊重，但是你不能現在對臺灣人說，現在台語就是閩南語、就是Holo話，不行啦！我也是半個Holo人，會講Holo話，我媽媽也是，我一半血液也是這樣，所以基於族群平等……","還有我們特別提到，過去我們國家語言發展的會議上，北區、東區的會議，本席這邊的資料，客家族群抗議的聲音你們都無視，然後就這樣通過。這一次客家鄉親最氣憤的就是，原本多年以來的閩南語語言能力認證考試，現在全部改成臺灣台語認證考試，對此所有的族群大家都有意見。我相信原住民語、原住民的委員、這些屬於原住民族的國人，還有我們客家族群，甚至是剛剛黃建賓委員也代表說閩南語的族群，大家都不認同這種定義，所以我們希望大家能夠互相尊重，請文化部不要專斷專行。我們請客委會一定要為客家鄉親發聲，大家對你們有不滿，你一定要重視，你要怎麼面對我們的客家鄉親？大家說你不理他們，不可以這樣，你們代表的是客家的鄉親，你知道嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員邀請大家來討論這件事情，聽大家的聲音與意見。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們要多聽客家鄉親的意見。"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的立場要堅定。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們的立場就是大家要互相尊重……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們要尊重他們，但讓客家人矮一截不行，原住民矮一截不行。"],["古主任委員秀妃：現在就是全部都是臺灣的國家語言，作為少數的臺灣語言……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我就在臺灣，臺灣的語言也有客語。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，臺灣的國家語言也有客語。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委，你的立場還不夠，所以大家不滿，我代表的就是客家鄉親。"],["古主任委員秀妃：大家有不一樣的聲音，大家的聲音我們聽到了，會再跟大家討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是討論，你要堅定立場。好，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要講是不是？"],["李次長靜慧：不好意思，謝謝委員再給我一分鐘，其實就像剛剛委員所提到的，在107年之前，整個臺灣社會對於國語的定義，事實上就像我們現在說的這個語言，也就是所謂的華語，更精確來講，可能就是當年的北京話也做了一些轉換。可是在語言發展法之後，我們現在對國語的定義，它不再是國家語言的縮寫，而是定義它為所有臺灣固有族群使用的語言都是國家語言，所以一樣的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！臺灣語言、台語不能夠只是閩南語，我在這邊要特別強調，民進黨過去一直在爭取族群融合，你說轉型正義，結果現在民進黨執政了，然後就用多數暴力，多數霸凌少數我們不可諱言，說所謂「閩南語」的，現在在臺灣也算多數，且是最多數。你既然掌握了權力，結果你的族群平等竟然做成這樣，讓大家痛心，我要在這裡替少數的族群講話。","既然如此，按照你對國語的這種定義，台語就要以一樣的邏輯思維來定義才對，所以你不能台語獨厚閩南語，臺灣語言、台語是我們共同生活在臺灣，包括馬祖語也是、原住民語也是，甚至臺灣手語、客語、華語、閩南語、Holo話都是，好不好？好啦！謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位我們請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 客家委員會主委有請好 國主委不好意思 這程序問題我這個好像口譯機好像沒聲音來 時間暫停來幫聯合委員調整一下OK OK OK"},{"start":37.774,"end":54.606,"text":"今天有討論到這個所謂的臺灣台語的專案報告那當然嘛就是這個客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感客家人也是臺灣人嘛那為什麼河洛語被認為是就可以叫做臺灣台語那這個客家語他難道不是臺灣台語嗎"},{"start":57.087,"end":63.591,"text":"臺灣台語的名稱對日本時代都一樣 都可以這樣說我們可以尊重說好話的人說話的人自己也要發但是像我和委員會客家人所說的所屬人要本人聽到我們的聲音跟本人看得到 也要尊重我們的意見所以站在我們的立場"},{"start":82.682,"end":85.567,"text":"來講,有的台語我們在講喉嚨話：所以我們非常強硬地去尊重有的在評定,台灣的國家語言在評定"},{"start":94.771,"end":112.34,"text":"我只是提醒這個我們主委就是畢竟你是客家等於是代表就是客家等於是最高的機關首長那這代表既然有些客家鄉親尤其在基層他的感受是受傷的必要的時候你要表達一下你的立場當然你可以講你也你知道複雜嘛在這整個這個行政體系裡面"},{"start":113.947,"end":135.926,"text":"動輒得救但是既然客家基層相繼有一些想法這我希望各位主委要守住自己的本位要勇於表達這是第一個但我們今天如果只談論名稱我覺得太可惜了因為比起名稱更重要的應該是環境我舉一個例子比如說新加坡這個主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎英文"},{"start":136.867,"end":152.294,"text":"其實不是 是馬來語喔是馬來語喔那它的官方語言你剛剛有講到就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度、塔米爾語這四種都是它所謂的官方語言但它國家 國定國家語言是馬來語然後它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文"},{"start":152.774,"end":179.669,"text":"所以說不管你的國家什麼國家語言啊或者是官方語言怎麼來做定位最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果所以流通的頻率是比較重要的新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題啊大家都講華語講英語他們的華語英語使用比例高可是相對來講他們馬來語使用比例就降低所以說這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標好那根據這個國家語言整體發展方案這個"},{"start":181.63,"end":197.176,"text":"主委知道我們這個叫做三代流失率啊,客家語的三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎?呃,抱歉,那個我,三、三太我不知道,但是我知道我們明年流失的比例差不多1.7左右"},{"start":201.089,"end":212.194,"text":"每年流失嘛 三代流失意思是說本來可以交給爸爸媽媽跟兒子女兒然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流 那個流失比例按照國家語言整理方案資料其實高達72.15% 72.15% 這個數字其實是蠻驚人的"},{"start":218.957,"end":241.163,"text":"那很多時候啊大家討論語言的時候除了討論流通性之外它也有文化資產的價值但那個通常都是到了很後面比如說我們今天也許談論部分比如原住民族的族語它已經幾乎要沒有了但它是很重要的文化資產所以今天文化部也來對不對那客語的角色就臺語大概三代流失比例大概是五成七啦客語到七成二原住民各族的族語已經到高達九成那"},{"start":243.144,"end":259.026,"text":"當流失的比例很高那大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策的規劃那我現在請問主委我們現在客家語的部分面對一個流失比例很高的一個情況之下我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境還是要乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理"},{"start":260.502,"end":282.717,"text":"當然 紐約議員所說的英國的前面的答案 應該要在那裡流通 增加 不能在那裡作為一個市的部署 除了部署還要流通當然還是要拼流通對不對 沒錯沒錯那現在拼流通的部分的時候 有沒有具體的政策目標"},{"start":283.894,"end":299.304,"text":"你可以講剛剛主委顯然有一套主委自己的數字就是說每一年流失1.7%對不對那明年的目標是多少後年到後年是多少有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失然後甚至變成使用人數增加客委會有沒有規劃一個相關這樣的政策的數據跟KPI"},{"start":301.926,"end":302.486,"text":"文化部主任委員會主席"},{"start":317.471,"end":333.998,"text":"多管齊下的所有方法都要做包括媒體、宣傳、教育、法律等等﹐要加密、擬言、擁謠本來在台上提醒要擬言的TV本來在英語說要學法說學法是有用的、是好的﹐這樣提供意識"},{"start":344.502,"end":359.227,"text":"也要入座?提高意識讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情不會覺得很奇怪然後也鼓勵各個家庭嘛像家庭這一部分其實主委就做得不錯嘛就我的了解你有兩位這個寶貝兒子對不對你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通對嘛對不對那他們講客語應該講得也不錯"},{"start":362.868,"end":378.107,"text":"但我就要問主委啦除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外你有沒有問過他們就是說當出去外面的時候還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人他同學也好或者是他身邊的人交流有沒有一些這樣你沒有討論過這樣的事情"},{"start":380.629,"end":398.259,"text":"有確實很少人,但一旦讀到行言：非咋講,我講合法： 也說以一重合在客家的法律世界,一人就有幾費使用：故所謂合一費去攀陷人家的角色：角色跟人家的環境重組出來：人家是人家最主要的：人家要做：人家太的環境要做："},{"start":404.062,"end":429.839,"text":"這個我非常同意就是說打造一個適宜客語的環境這是很重要的但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標嘛比如說你當然很多計畫比如說剛剛主委也有提到比如說客語能力認證啊資料庫對不對媒體啊辦辦活動什麼這都很好我們也都會支持但問題是這些活動辦下去之後這些政策落實下去之後怎麼樣把那個1.7%要變成多少主委心裡有沒有一個目標嘛定一個目標嘛"},{"start":430.599,"end":450.7,"text":"我們的目標是先點下去,先點下去,不再落下去,也要提一個目標,目標是要做到能夠讓法律輕鬆提高大概要多少的時間,現在是每年1.7就是-1.7嘛,越來越少對不對,什麼時候可以回到0,不再流失,有沒有一個時間,比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標,有嗎?"},{"start":461.173,"end":477,"text":"我們希望這個每一年大家都要檢討我覺得每一年要有細的目標啦你有一個五年十年的大目標但每一年細的目標我們希望在預算審查之後可以清楚的交代讓我們可以追蹤 可以嗎好 感謝紐約的建議還有各位基體的建議感謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝感謝好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:24:11 - 11:32:10","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155330","gazette":{"lineno":791,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時24分）謝謝主席。客委會主委，有請。"],["主席：好，古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：不好意思，程序問題。我的口譯機好像沒有聲音。"],["主席：來，時間暫停，請幫牛委員調整一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。","主委早安。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝牛委員，早安。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天有討論到所謂臺灣台語的專案報告，當然客家族群多少有感受到一些相對剝奪感，客家人也是臺灣人，對不對？那為什麼福佬語被認為可以叫做臺灣台語？客家語難道不是臺灣台語嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這樣啦！就台語這個名稱，從日本時代到現在都有這種說法，我們尊重說福佬話的人說他們自己的語言是什麼語言，但是就我客委會客家人的立場來說，少數人要被人聽到我們的聲音、被人看到跟尊重我們的意見，所以站在我的立場，我來表達的話，「台語」我們是說福佬話，所以我們互相一起尊重，這是平等的，臺灣的國家語言是平等的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我只是提醒主委，畢竟你等於客家人的代表，等於客家的最高機關首長，既然有些客家鄉親，尤其在基層，他的感受是受傷的，必要的時候，你也要表達一下你的立場，當然你可以講，你知道複雜嘛！在這整個行政體系裡面，動輒得咎，但是既然客家基層鄉親有一些想法，我希望客委會主委要守住自己的本位，要勇於表達，這是第一個。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是我們今天如果只談論名稱，我覺得太可惜了，因為比起名稱，更重要的應該是環境。我舉一個例子，比如新加坡，主委知道新加坡的國定國家語言是哪一種語言嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：英文。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實不是，而是馬來語。它的官方語言你剛剛有講到，就是英語、華語、馬來語、印度泰米爾語，這四種都是它所謂的官方語言，但是它國定的國家語言是馬來語，它的官方文書實際上使用就是英文，所以不管什麼國家語言或者是官方語言怎麼來定位，最後大家實際使用的習慣還是不一樣的結果，所以流通的頻率是比較重要的。新加坡也遇到跟我們一樣的問題，大家都講華語、講英語，他們的華語、英語使用比例高，相對來講，他們馬來語使用比例就降低，所以這個才是我們應該要認真面對的目標。好，根據國家語言整體發展方案，我們這個叫做三代流失率，主委知道客家語三代流失率的數字大概是多少嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：不好意思，三代我不知道，但是我知道我們每一年流失的比例差不多1.7%左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：每年流失嘛！三代流失的意思是，本來可以爸爸、媽媽跟兒子、女兒，然後再跟孫子輩這樣去交流，那個流失比例，按照國家語言整體發展方案的資料，其實高達72.15%，這個數字其實是蠻驚人的，大家在討論語言的時候，除了討論流通性之外，它也有文化資產的價值，但那個通常都是到很後面，比如我們今天也許談論部分，比如原住民族的族語，它已經幾乎要沒有了，但它是很重要的文化資產，所以今天文化部也來了，對不對？而客語的角色，因為台語三代流失比例大概是五成七，客語到七成二，原住民各族的族語已經高達九成了，當流失的比例很高，大家就會轉用文化資產保存的心態來做政策規劃。我現在請問主委，現在客家語的部分，面對流失比例很高的情況之下，我們現在是要扭轉它流通的困境，還是乾脆就用文化資產保存的心態來處理？"],["古主任委員秀妃：當然，就牛委員所說的，應該是前面這個答案，我們要去把流通增加，不是去作為一個死的保存這樣而已，除了保存還要流通。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們當然還是要拚流通，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯、沒錯！好，現在拚流通這部分的時候，有沒有具體的政策目標？剛剛主委顯然有一套自己的數字，就是每一年流失1.7%，對不對？那麼明年的目標是多少，後年、大後年是多少，有沒有辦法把它從流失變成不再流失，甚至變成使用人數增加？客委會有沒有規劃相關這樣的政策數據跟KPI？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，這個語言看起來我們花了很多心力去做，但是還是流失，所以我們第一個目標是要止跌，讓它不要流失，所以我們現在多管齊下，就是所有的方法都要做，所有的方法包括媒體、宣傳、教育、活動等等，要加入語言的融入，讓大家聽得到客語，提升客語的語言地位，讓大家認為講客語是有用的、是好的，這樣提高人的意識來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是提高意識，讓大家覺得講客語是一個很OK的事情，不會覺得很奇怪，然後也鼓勵各個家庭，像家庭這一部分，其實主委就做得不錯，就我的了解，你有兩位寶貝兒子對不對？你在家裡是不是都用客語跟他們溝通？對嘛！那他們講客語應該也講得不錯，但我就要問主委，除了他們跟媽媽聊天講話的時候用客語交談之外，你有沒有問過他們，當出去外面的時候，還有沒有什麼機會可以用客家語言跟其他的人、同學也好，或者是他身邊的人交流？有沒有一些這樣的案例？有沒有討論過這樣的事情？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，確實很少，但是一旦遇到客家人或者是會講客語的，或是他參加客家活動的時候，他們就有機會使用，所以客委會是扮演這樣的角色，把這個環境創造出來，這是我們最主要要做的，這個大的環境要做。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我非常同意，就是打造一個適宜客語的環境，這是很重要的，但是我希望今天的質詢可以問出一個具體的目標，你當然有很多計畫，比如剛剛主委也有提到客語能力認證、資料庫、媒體、辦辦活動什麼的，這都很好，我們也都會支持，但問題是這些活動辦下去之後，這些政策落實下去之後，怎麼樣把那個1.7%變成多少，主委心裡有沒有一個目標？訂一個目標嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我的目標是先停下來，不要再往下掉，這是第一個目標，目標是做了才有辦法向上提高。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概要多少的時間可以……現在是每一年負1.7%，越來越少，對不對？什麼時候可以回到0，不再流失，有沒有一個時間？比如說你抓一個3年或5年完成這個目標，有嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想這個時間不會短，會是一個長的時間還要努力5年到10年。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望每一年大家都要檢討，我覺得每一年要有細的目標，你有一個5年、10年的大目標，但每一年有細的目標，我們希望在預算審查的時候可以清楚的交代，讓我們可以追蹤，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝牛委員的建議，這是很具體的建議，感謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：接下來我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","羅智強","涂權吉","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","黃國昌","呂玉玲","蘇清泉","丁學忠","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概\n況，並備質詢；二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育\n部，就「臺灣台語」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正\n「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:07:58","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:23:10+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155329","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","duration":478,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:15:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600ae2c3b26f56f32388119ae97120cdb860f89a95c2b8a967610053f05795850e525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.64221875,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.53659375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.523468750000001,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.76034375,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.96284375000002,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.22409375,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.92846875,"end":178.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.58534375000002,"end":182.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.98971875,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.37721875000003,"end":196.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.50659375,"end":196.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.57409375,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.59096875,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.97284375000004,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.17409375,"end":323.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.77596875,"end":309.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.14721875000004,"end":309.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.41221875,"end":315.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.35659375,"end":428.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.45221875000004,"end":383.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.03159375,"end":428.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.55471875,"end":428.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.89221875000004,"end":428.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.97659375,"end":444.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.19784375,"end":471.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.15971875,"end":475.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.97346875000005,"end":476.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.34034375000005,"end":478.52159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":25.206,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們請谷主委。請谷主委。請別人好。你好。所以非常關心這個客家委員會的預算。那也希望能夠替我們的客家族群爭取更多的預算,包含是在文化上面以及語言上面。"},{"start":25.686,"end":26.687,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":42.935,"end":56.751,"text":"所以聽跟說都只會一點點而已那我覺得這是非常遺憾跟可惜的這也代表我們長期對於客家話在臺北市來說是給我們的學生、給我們的孩子是絕對不夠的"},{"start":57.892,"end":85.676,"text":"所以我們可以來看一下對於客委會補助各縣市的這個數據來說呢臺北市的補助金額跟平均補助的金額是全國最低的那當然我們在這個大型的有客家族群的縣市是最高這個我們是毋庸置疑也絕對支持但是呢我們可以看到臺北市我們客家人口數也非常的多但我們的補助總金額呢"},{"start":86.016,"end":106.515,"text":"平均下來每一個客家人只平均補助到7塊錢而已臺北市有非常多很優秀的這個客家的文化包含是我們的藝名記等等的但我們的補助是全國最低那所以呢包含是語言包含是文化我覺得這是非常可惜的一件事情"},{"start":107.216,"end":126.647,"text":"所以近5年全國補助總額56億多．客家人口數460萬人左右．平均每個客家人受惠1212元．但是對比最多的苗栗縣13億．當然客家人口數多．可是我們平均分配到7塊．"},{"start":127.568,"end":128.409,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":150.232,"end":165.688,"text":"臺北市的範圍之外,尤其對於臺北市沒有付出,因為臺北市的策略一定好。雖然說臺北市做不到付出,但是我們也透過其他方法來付出給臺北市。比方說,像在學校行業的教學,"},{"start":170.773,"end":193.766,"text":"臺北市政府的教育Q有跟我們審查,我們有付出。所以要跟地方合作,地方政府合作,地方恩怨意提出來。地方恩怨意提出來,我們就會支持。包括我們也跟臺北市政府說,也有行義家庭,請他們來付出。所以我們都有主通本,臺北市政府和委員會請他們來提出審查。"},{"start":196.647,"end":220.22,"text":"但是我們剛剛提到的包含是藝名祭等等的像其實藝名祭的補助是一年比一年少那我也跟我們的台北市長蔣萬安談過這件事情他就說他非常的重視台北市的藝名祭因為這是一個全台北市的客家民眾能夠共同參與的一個活動那當然我知道"},{"start":220.94,"end":244.196,"text":"全臺灣的藝名祭活動今年度的經費都有減少的狀況並不是只有臺北市發生可是我們希望的是全臺灣的藝名祭的經費都能夠提高不只是臺北市的提高大家都一起提高包含臺北市也提高後來在我們的不斷徐宇珍委員的爭取之下臺北市的金額有稍微提高了可是呢"},{"start":244.656,"end":246.257,"text":"我想要問的是為什麼各縣市的藝名祭的活動的經費要逐年減少這也相對應到我們剛剛講的客家語言的臺灣台語為什麼客家族群會這麼的反彈很大一方面也是因為很多客家的經費大家感覺到了"},{"start":263.263,"end":291.65,"text":"最近的這個藝名季的活動．客家經費的預算．好像開始慢慢地遞減．又再加上文化部的這個臺灣語．臺灣台語的訂定．當然會讓客家族群感到非常的恐慌．感到心生不滿想請問谷主委．在藝名季的活動編列上面．不只是為我們臺北市爭取．臺北市當然要爭取．但是臺北市跟其他縣市的藝名季的活動．是否未來能夠在補助的金額上面向上提升"},{"start":292.631,"end":297.296,"text":"跟委員報告,移民基的法庭,新竹縣200萬,是最高的所以一般來說,對其他所有的縣市的法庭的部署,目前也要移民基200萬以前都能夠到400萬嗎?"},{"start":311.294,"end":312.855,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":334.565,"end":356.56,"text":"新竹也能夠提高、臺北也能夠提高那都提高的狀況下面﹐客家族群他們就不會感到相對剝奪感對於包含是所謂要不要訂定臺灣台語這樣子的事情﹐就不會有敏感﹐就不會有衝突﹐他們就會覺得被尊重我相信新竹的客家族群﹐苗栗的客家族群都會有同樣的想法"},{"start":357.04,"end":385.212,"text":"所以拜託我們客委會在相關的預算跟經費上面不只是針對特定的縣市當所有縣市包含是這麼重要的疫名季我們的預算跟經費都能夠往上提的時候我知道您剛剛說因為新竹最高兩百萬所以其他縣市不會再比它更高了這我可以理解但當新竹如果能夠是五百萬的時候那其他縣市就可以是三百萬啊那所以說我們希望的是共同針對"},{"start":386.693,"end":400.079,"text":"苗栗新竹台北所有的客家的預算我們要提高那對於苗栗客家的鄉親不只是苗栗因為我自己苗栗人才這樣講客家的鄉親來說當在講這些臺灣台語什麼臺灣客語等等這些詞彙的時候才不會引發各族群的衝突跟緊張這也是一種解決的辦法所以希望我們的谷主委"},{"start":415.845,"end":427.953,"text":"身為客委會的主委一定要跟中央全力去爭取我們客家族群的預算不只是移民季還包括其他的客家預算拜託主委謝謝美燕明年醫生有選中但是雖然有選中但是醫生的肯定的要按照團體論每個團體都說我們不出特色但是醫生有憾所以我們還是要看醫生審查"},{"start":444.744,"end":470.204,"text":"總預算是有限的但是你們一定要向他爭取更多否則怎麼會以前大家可以申請到400萬現在最高上限是200萬呢我們主席一定對這個事情是最清楚的是不是這幾年的疫名季所有縣市的經費都是減少的情況以前可以有這麼多現在沒有辦法有這麼多那就是經費縮減了我們只是希望能夠回到原本的情況而已嘛謝謝"},{"start":474.398,"end":478.166,"text":"主委 許委員說的你是代表"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:15:12 - 11:23:10","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155329","gazette":{"lineno":754,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時15分）謝謝主席，我們請古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：你好。我也是客家人，所以非常關心客家委員會的預算，也希望能夠替我們的客家族群爭取更多的預算，包含在文化上面以及語言上面。也特別跟主委報告，身為一個客家族群的「客家妹」，我在臺北市生活、長大，只有過年過節的時候有機會回到苗栗，因為在學校裡面其實很少能夠學習到客家話，所以聽跟說都只會一點點而已，我覺得這是非常遺憾跟可惜的。這也代表長期以來，客家話在臺北市來說，給我們的學生、給我們的孩子是絕對不夠的。","我們可以來看一下客委會補助各縣市的數據，臺北市的補助金額跟平均補助金額都是全國最低的，當然，我們在大型的、有客家族群的縣市最高，這個我們是無庸置疑也絕對支持的；我們可以看到，臺北市客家人口數也非常多喔，但是我們的補助總金額平均下來每個客家人只補助到7塊錢而已。臺北市有非常多很優秀的客家文化，包含義民祭等等，但我們的補助是全國最低，包含語言、包含文化，我覺得這是非常可惜的一件事情。近5年全國補助總額五十六億多，客家人口數460萬人左右，平均每個客家人受惠1,212元；對比最多的苗栗縣13億，當然他們客家人口數多，可是我們平均分配到7塊錢，相比其他的縣市，還真的是比較少了一些。","想要先請教一下，未來對臺北市的補助有沒有提高的機會跟可能性？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝徐委員，老實說，在補助的範圍當中，中央對臺北市是不補助的，因為臺北市的財力非常好。雖然不補助臺北市，但是我們有透過其他方式，比方說學校的客語教學，臺北市教育局來申請，我們也會給予補助。在和地方政府合作方面，只要地方政府願意提出，我們就會支持，包括跟臺北市政府說，現在有客語家庭，請你們提出補助申請；我們會主動、善意地請臺北市政府的客委會提出申請。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們剛剛提到包含義民祭等等的，其實義民祭的補助是一年比一年少，我也跟臺北市長蔣萬安談過這件事情，他就說他非常重視臺北市的義民祭，因為這是全臺北市客家民眾能夠共同參與的一個活動。當然，我知道今年度全臺灣義民祭活動的經費都有減少的狀況，並不是只有發生在臺北市，可是我們希望的是全臺灣義民祭的經費都能夠提高，不只是臺北市的提高，大家都一起提高，包含臺北市也提高！後來在許宇甄委員的爭取之下，臺北市的金額有稍微提高了，可是我想要問的是：為什麼各縣市義民祭活動的經費要逐年減少？這也對應到我們剛剛講的，為什麼客家族群會對「臺灣台語」反彈這麼大。一方面也是因為很多客家的經費大家感覺到了，最近的義民祭活動，客家經費好像開始慢慢地遞減，再加上文化部這個「臺灣台語」的訂定，當然會讓客家族群感到非常的恐慌、心生不滿。想請問古主委，在義民祭的活動編列上面，不只是為我們臺北市爭取，臺北市當然要爭取，但是臺北市跟其他縣市的義民祭活動，是否未來能夠在補助的金額上面向上提升？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，義民祭的活動，新竹縣200萬是最高的，一般來說，我們對於其他所有縣市的活動補助，目前義民祭的補助200萬元也是最高的。"],["徐委員巧芯：以前都能夠到400萬啊！"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是各種活動我們要支持……"],["徐委員巧芯：就變少了啊！"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為所有的縣市、所有的鄉鎮都跟我說……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們的預算有限……"],["徐委員巧芯：我的意思是大家都多，新竹也多、臺北也多，客委會的資源怎麼能夠變少呢？如果能夠像幾年前一樣都這麼豐沛，新竹也不要只有200萬，新竹也能夠提高，臺北也能夠提高，在都提高的狀況下，客家族群就不會感到相對剝奪感，對於要不要訂定「臺灣台語」這樣子的事情就不會敏感、不會有衝突，他們就會覺得被尊重。我相信新竹的客家族群、苗栗的客家族群都會有同樣的想法。所以拜託我們客委會在相關的預算跟經費上面，不只是針對特定的縣市，當所有縣市包含這麼重要的義民祭，我們的預算跟經費都能夠往上提的時候……我知道您剛剛說新竹最高200萬，其他縣市不會再比它更高了，這我可以理解，但當新竹如果能夠是500萬的時候，那其他縣市就可以是300萬，所以我們希望的是共同針對苗栗、新竹、臺北，所有客家的預算都要提高。對於苗栗客家的鄉親，不只是苗栗，因為我自己是苗栗人才這樣講，對於客家的鄉親來說，在講臺灣台語、臺灣客語等等這些詞彙的時候，才不會引發各族群的衝突跟緊張，這也是一種解決的辦法希望我們的古主委，你身為客委會的主委，一定要跟中央全力去爭取我們客家族群的預算，不只是義民祭，還包括其他的客家預算，拜託主委，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員，我們每一年預算都有成長，雖然有成長，但是預算是固定的，這麼多團體來，每個團體都說我們補助太少，但是預算有限，所以我們還是要看預算審查來分配……"],["徐委員巧芯：總預算是有限的，但是你們一定要向它爭取更多，否則怎麼會以前大家可以申請到400萬，現在最高上限是200萬呢？我們主席一定對這個事情是最清楚的，是不是這幾年的義民祭，所有縣市的經費都是減少的情況？以前可以有這麼多，現在沒有辦法有這麼多，那就是經費縮減了，我們只是希望能夠回到原本的情況而已，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝徐委員。"],["主席：主委，徐委員說的，你是代表客家族群的主委，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，我們有努力爭取預算……"],["主席：所以客家委員跟那麼多委員都不斷在提點您……"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員、主席支持。"],["主席：你應該要代表來爭取客家預算多一點，不能說就是預算有限……"],["王委員美惠：好、好！我也贊成……"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，感謝……"],["王委員美惠：我也贊成，要支持……"],["主席：你看講台語的也贊成，所以主委加油好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，行政院也有給我們更多的預算，但是預算下來還是……"],["主席：行政院會議的時候，你就要表達好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，行政院也很支持……"],["主席：我們要爭取，為客家人要更多經費，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，可以。"],["主席：加油，主委！"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：你們加油，我們立委也加油，大家互相加油。"],["主席：對，謝謝。","接下來我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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那當然我們有推薦優先使用第一類組就是包括了臺灣原住民語言"},{"start":81.516,"end":102.85,"text":"原住民族語言還有臺灣平埔族語言、臺灣客語、臺灣台語跟臺灣手語還有馬族語這幾個。這是最推薦的第一類族的使用語言。是。好。謝謝次長的說明。其實我要講的就是因為其實今天我們的議程的內容有問到說這個臺灣台語是不是有侵犯到其他臺灣語言的地位。"},{"start":103.59,"end":126.384,"text":"那我想應該答案很明確啦在我們國家語言發展法裡面就是要尊重所有我們臺灣使用的母語大家都是族群平等然後尊重所有多元包容那我也希望說因為這些都是我們臺灣人自己的語言那文化部要扛起這個責任讓所有的語言都可以好好的被保留傳承並且繼續發展好嗎"},{"start":128.905,"end":148.252,"text":"那如果真的有特別有哪一個語言團體或是使用哪一個族群的語言的使用者覺得說我們文化部做的不夠或者是覺得被排擠或是感受上覺得不被尊重那確實這個就是我們文化部應該要繼續努力的部分"},{"start":148.712,"end":175.461,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指導我們會繼續努力好 謝謝那再來我請教一下這個臺語家庭的部分因為 不好意思還是次長對 先不要回座因為在文化部2022年有公告我們國家語言發展整體方案那這個方案接下來會延續到115年那我有看到你們的專案報告那我真的覺得算是蠻肯定的包括說現在你們還有做一些臺語配音的動漫"},{"start":176.281,"end":202.543,"text":"像是派對卡孔名稱還有這個spy family都是我很喜歡的動畫那你們嘗試著用臺語配音我覺得這個都是很好的嘗試讓他跟大家平常接觸的文化去做交流讓一般民眾可以更多的接觸這是跨世代非常好的溝通那我想知道的是因為其實你們的目標是要在2026年選拔跟獎勵出4萬戶的臺語家庭那我想知道的是你們離這個目標還有多遠"},{"start":205.765,"end":207.908,"text":"臺語家庭計劃我們從去年擬定這個方案之後其實一直在推動當中那麼我們目前有規劃出會分成兩個"},{"start":221.048,"end":237.918,"text":"階段來做第一種我們稱之為臺語學習家庭也就是他目前他不需要有任何臺語的能力可是他有心想要來報名參加我們臺語學習家庭的這樣子的一個策略的話我們就會先幫他登錄了以後"},{"start":239.119,"end":261.893,"text":"正宗他一個臺語學習包讓他能夠在家裡有兩代以上看他們依照他們的年紀需求來選擇他們需要的一些讀本或者是繪本那如果說有一些家庭他已經有相當的臺語能力了那他也我們是希望鼓勵這些家庭尤其應該都是50歲以上他可能可以使用臺語的希望鼓勵這樣他要往下一代"},{"start":262.614,"end":284.335,"text":"傳承下去能夠帶領他的年輕的這一代那這一類的我們會把它稱之為所謂的文化家庭那這個文化家庭我們除了一樣也會給他一些獎勵這種臺語的他可能要更進一步學習的需要的繪本之外我們也希望鼓勵這些文化家庭具有臺語溝通能力的家庭他們能夠站出來更協助"},{"start":286.918,"end":297.951,"text":"文化部門協助行政部門來推動臺語那這個計畫整個計畫我們在10月底的時候會公告然後會開始讓大家來做這個登錄那預計在逐年的就是到115年2026年的時候能夠達到我們的KPI就是4萬"},{"start":304.099,"end":304.339,"text":"臺語實驗學校"},{"start":328.058,"end":356.788,"text":"就在明年要掛牌了那我不知道說次長知道這個消息嗎我們高雄首先做了但是呢我希望的是因為其實中央也有相對應的政策那是不是接下來這個臺語實驗學校的這樣的計畫跟美意可以在各個縣市來遍地開花呢那當然我們高雄實驗所做當然有我們的用意因為其實高雄是臺灣算是百萬人口以上使用臺語最多的一個城市"},{"start":357.388,"end":377.6,"text":"所以我們也很希望說高雄可以扛起這個把台語的傳承做好這樣的角色那這是我們高雄的目標但是我希望文化部也應該要就是像我們高雄這麼的積極所以我不知道說我們現在有沒有一些政策是可以對應這個實驗學校另外我也要說因為剛好谷竹也在這裡"},{"start":378.12,"end":380.943,"text":"二、邀請客家委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":403.783,"end":421.08,"text":"的確我是從公視台語台的新聞裡面得知這個訊息說我們高雄市即將要推出台語實驗小學那我記得當初這個新聞下面就非常多的我們關心台語傳承的朋友們就留言說多希望不要只有高雄有"},{"start":421.64,"end":447.57,"text":"應該要怎麼樣全國性的來推動那這件事情我們會持續再跟教育部這邊來討論怎麼樣在我們體制之內然後盡量的可以用一種所謂全臺語的授課其實真的臺語要走出除了生活以外要能夠跟知識能夠連結在一起的時候這個語言才能夠存活下來這部分文化部會持續的跟客委會還有原民會然後還有跟我們其他教育部一起來努力"},{"start":448.21,"end":458.144,"text":"我希望審預算的時候也可以我還會繼續問然後我會希望你們有更具體的一個方向說我們用了哪些預算來支持地方做這件事好 謝謝次長謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:07:13 - 11:14:55","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155328","gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時7分）謝謝主席，我們請文化部次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["黃委員捷：次長好。可不可以先請教，我們今天討論這個，就國家語言發展法，針對臺灣的很多重要母語都是平等尊重，那我們發展的精神是什麼？我看到在國家語言發展法裡面的書面用語，它有一些文字，我們目前有列出哪一些書面用語？"],["李次長靜慧：在語發報告裡面的書面用語是針對有瀕臨傳承危機的，總共有六個種類，大概有十二種。其中譬如客語，它就可以是臺灣客語或客語；原住民語或者是臺灣原住民語言，大概都會這樣子並列；在台語的部分就比較特殊，它就是臺灣台語、台語跟臺灣閩南語，我們在書面建議用語上這個名稱有三個種類，總共有六類十二種語言，供各個行政機關在書面用語的時候視情境使用。當然我們有推薦優先使用第一類組，包括臺灣原住民族語言還有臺灣平埔族語言、臺灣客語、臺灣台語跟臺灣手語，以及馬祖語這幾個，這是最推薦使用的第一類組用語。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的說明。我要講的是，今天我們議程的內容有問到，臺灣台語是不是有侵犯到其他臺灣語言的地位，我想答案應該很明確，在我們國家語言發展法裡面，就是要尊重所有在臺灣使用的母語。"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["黃委員捷：大家都是族群平等，尊重所有多元的、包容。我也希望……因為這些都是我們臺灣人自己的語言。"],["李次長靜慧：是。"],["黃委員捷：文化部要扛起這個責任，讓所有語言都可以好好地被保留、傳承並且繼續發展，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，是的，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：如果真的特別有哪一個語言團體或是哪個族群語言的使用者，覺得文化部做得不夠，或覺得被排擠，還是感受上不被尊重，那確實就是文化部應該要繼續努力的部分。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員的指導，我們會繼續努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。再來我請教台語家庭的部分，因為文化部在2022年有公告國家語言發展整體方案，這個方案接下來會延續到115年。我有看到你們的專案報告，覺得滿肯定的，包括現在你們還有做一些台語配音的動漫，像「派對咖孔明」還有「SPY×FAMILY」，都是我很喜歡的動畫，你們用台語配音，我覺得這都是很好的嘗試，讓它跟大家平常接觸的文化去做交流，讓一般民眾可以更多地接觸，這是跨世代非常好的溝通。其實你們的目標是要在2026年選拔出4萬戶的台語家庭並予以獎勵，我想知道你們離這個目標還有多遠。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提問，然後也跟委員報告，台語家庭這個計畫我們從去年擬定這個方案之後，其實一直在推動當中，我們目前的規劃是分成兩個階段來做，第一種我們稱之為「台語學習家庭」，也就是目前他不需要有任何台語的能力，可是他有心想要來報名參加我們台語學習家庭的話，我們就會先幫他登錄，贈送他一個台語學習包，讓他能夠在家裡有兩代以上，依照他們的年紀需求來選擇自己需要的一些讀本或者是繪本。如果有一些家庭已經有相當的台語能力，我們是希望鼓勵這些家庭，尤其應該都是50歲以上、可能可以使用台語的，希望他們往下一代傳承下去，能夠帶領年輕的一代，這一類我們會把它稱之為「文化家庭」。對於文化家庭，我們除了一樣會給它一些獎勵，包括它要更進一步學習可能需要的繪本之外，也希望鼓勵這些文化家庭、具有台語溝通能力的家庭能夠站出來，協助行政部門來推動台語。這整個計畫我們在10月底的時候會公告，然後開始讓大家來登錄，預計逐年、到115年（2026年）的時候能夠達到我們的KPI，就是4萬戶的台語家庭。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，其實我在這邊也是想幫你們宣傳，讓有心想要成為學習台語家庭或是台語使用者這樣的家庭，可以大家一起來、趕快來加入，我自己也很希望可以繼續把台語精進。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：最後一點時間我請教一下，其實我們高雄成立了全臺灣首座台語實驗學校，明年就要掛牌了，我不知道次長是否知道這個消息？"],["李次長靜慧：有、有。"],["黃委員捷：我們高雄首先做了，但我希望的是，因為中央也有相對應的政策，是不是接下來這個台語實驗學校的計畫跟美意可以在各個縣市遍地開花呢？當然，我們高雄率先成立當然有我們的用意，因為高雄是臺灣百萬人口以上使用台語最多的一個城市……"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["黃委員捷：所以我們也很希望高雄可以扛起做好台語傳承的角色，這是我們高雄的目標，我希望文化部也應該要像我們高雄這麼積極。我不知道你們現在有沒有一些政策可以對應這個實驗學校？另外我也要說，因為剛好古主委也在這裡，我們高雄也有客語的實驗學校，就在我們高雄的美濃，其實我們客語、台語的實驗學校都做得非常認真，這是我們高雄在做的事情我想知道文化部的態度，還有接下來可以跟地方縣市配合的，你們提供什麼樣的誘因以及什麼樣的預算來支持地方做這件事情？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。其實我是從公視台語臺的新聞裡面得知這個訊息，說高雄市即將推出台語實驗小學，我記得當初這個新聞下面就有非常多關心台語傳承的朋友留言，說多希望不要只有高雄有……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯！"],["李次長靜慧：應該要怎麼樣全國性地來推動，這件事情我們會再持續跟教育部討論，看看怎麼樣在體制之內，儘量可以進行所謂全台語的授課。其實真的，台語除了生活以外，還要能夠跟知識連結在一起，這個語言才能夠存活下來。這部分文化部會持續跟客委會、原民會還有教育部一起來努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，審預算的時候我還會繼續問，希望你們有更具體的方向，說明自己用哪些預算來支持地方做這件事。好，謝謝次長。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。接下來請徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155327","gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時59分）主席，請客委會主委。"],["主席：古主委。"],["王委員美惠：請文化部的政次。"],["主席：李次長。"],["古主任委員秀妃：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委，也感謝你，你就任以來，本席有跟你講到嘉義市對客家文化經費的需要，也看到你們有漸漸在幫忙……"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：不過在這個過程當中，我認為還不足，主委，你覺得嘉義市的課外活動有需要再補充什麼嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員，上次委員質詢這部分，我也有和我同事說，請多多在嘉義市辦理客家活動。我認為應該要照顧全臺灣的客家鄉親，嘉義市部分也要特別努力注重。"],["王委員美惠：主委，謝謝。我覺得大家互相尊重，今天我們要說的就是，我有我的語言，你有你的語言，因為我從小的環境差不多都是講台語，在台語當中還聽得出來他在哪一個地方，是南部孩子還是北部孩子，是代表而已沒什麼惡意。今天討論我們要如何把語言再做得更好，我覺得，雖然尊重歸尊重，不過你要讓所有族群的語言都活化起來，我相信今天不是只有客委會，原住民也需要保存他們的語言。在文化方面，說實在的，你們每一個族群、每一個語言如果消失了，有錢也買不到。所以剛剛許多委員向你們提問，你們未來怎麼樣可以再做得更好？請政次說一下。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提問，我在這裡想藉由委員的時間先跟委員報告一件事情，因為文化部所主管的是國家語言發展法這個方案，在這個方案之下，我們現在要保存面臨失傳危機的……"],["王委員美惠：這才是最重要，面臨要失去的……"],["李次長靜慧：對，因為有客語、原住民語還有台語。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["李次長靜慧：因為客語跟原住民語都有主管機關在推廣、保存，台語、馬祖語跟臺灣手語這三項國家語言同樣面臨失傳的危機，也沒有專門單位來替他們負責，所以文化部現在除了主管這個法律以外，我們同時還要推動包括馬祖語、台語跟臺灣手語。在推動的時候，文化部這一年在行政院的支持之下有編5年300億，總共4個部會一起推廣、保存這些語言。文化部在做的時候，客家鄉親一直誤會說你們文化部怎麼可以只有做台語而已？我要跟大家報告，文化部不是只有做台語而已，只是因為台語、臺灣手語跟馬祖語目前為止還沒有主管機關，所以由文化部代替就這三個語言做更多推動的工作，這是第一個說明。剛才委員說的，文化部要怎麼在……因為剛才都說，教育部在教室裡面、教育現場他們會推動，孩子要學台語、學我們的母語，都要有一個比較好的環境，不是只有在教室裡面而已，所以要怎麼從家庭，要怎麼讓他回去看到電視、聽到廣播，或是他在app裡面有更多更多我們母語所產生的這些文化藝術活動，這是文化部接下來會跟客委會、原住民委員會還有其他縣市政府一起努力來推的。"],["王委員美惠：我是覺得要做得比較生動，像我們的圖書館裡面，你如果設一個是可以教任何族群的語言，我覺得很好。圖書館，包括長輩也好，包括小孩也好，都會去那個地方，所以未來我希望要加強。","尤其主委，本席要跟你探討，在語言裡面要使用到、活潑的地方，像我們嘉義有兩萬多個客家人……但實際上講的沒有幾個，你要如何鼓勵他們說我們的語言？不是說叫什麼，這是一個代表，不是說輕視，也不是有把它變化的用意，我覺得中央政府不會這樣做。剛剛我們聽政次說的，花這麼多錢要有效果！不是錢花一花像丟到水裡咚一聲，明年再來，我相信不是這樣，是要有效果出來。剛剛我們的委員也說，為什麼現在人家要去學日語、為什麼要去學韓語？就是他覺得可以帶動其本身的生活，才有可能去學。所以這個方向，我們希望政次跟主委要改進，因為每一個族群、每一個語言我們都要保存，像台語，長久以來我們就覺得講「台語」就順順地，台語、台語，不然你說，「閩南語」的台語怎麼說？政次，這句要怎麼說？"],["李次長靜慧：閩南語，蠻……"],["王委員美惠：喔！閩南語啦！"],["李次長靜慧：發音跟蠻族的「蠻」……"],["王委員美惠：這樣是不是比較不順？長久以來大家都說這個王美惠揪感心，質詢都講「台語」，把台語保存下去。他絕對不會說這個王美惠揪感心，都講「閩南語」，他不會講這樣吧！所以這個語言你我互相、大家要加油保存下去。以上。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝王美惠委員。接下來請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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包括說教育部的梁司長您現在幫 因為我有聽到就說你們是建議優先使用就臺灣台語或臺灣原住民語臺灣客家語這個部分是優先使用可是我看你們的網站都已經改成臺灣台語了在我們在查詢的時候都已經改成這樣了跟委員報告那其實教育部主要是因為根據行政院在剛才所講的111年的8月20號的一個"},{"start":174.882,"end":202.194,"text":"語法的這個決議：還有大概在文化部就是我們語言的一個專責機關他們在今年的6月20號給教育部就是希望優先使用：他們寫的是優先使用嗎：是：並不是說一定要嗎：那為什麼你們的這個查詢的網站我看全部都已經更改成臺灣台語：因為他建議是在書寫上面書面的書寫上面要用優先來使用這一些不是只有臺灣台語包括臺灣客語等等"},{"start":202.85,"end":222.254,"text":"所以教育部就是根據整個行政院的政策跟國家語言的一個我已經不太理解就是說為什麼要加上臺灣這兩個字加上因為我們都在臺灣那不管是臺語、原住民語、客家語本來就是都是我們所使用的語言那加上臺語就不會這個嗎"},{"start":224.815,"end":237.011,"text":"因為我覺得看到因為我們很多都特別提到要推廣語言就是針對一些比較有傳承危機的母語希望能夠來推動那加了台灣這兩個字就不會有傳承危機了嗎"},{"start":240.957,"end":255.703,"text":"是教育部還是文化部,怎麼樣回答?是文化部。好,是文化部,好。就是因為剛剛講呆役,它作為一個專有名詞之後,我們擔心有的族群朋友會覺得"},{"start":256.863,"end":284.842,"text":"好像被排除在臺灣之外所以我們就會提出在名稱上面大家都是臺灣的語言目前看起來好像加了臺灣這兩個字之後反而引起更大的反彈剛剛有特別提到就是可能針對客家族群現在的反彈是最大那請問一下谷主委針對這個部分您會怎麼來去您是不是覺得這樣子是不是適當然後會不會覺得這樣反而會讓客家族群會覺得說我們自己的語言沒有受到尊重"},{"start":285.723,"end":291.767,"text":"我希望我們能夠了解客家作為一個所屬的族群是由本人、黨的黨、共的黨、尊崇、所以客家族群"},{"start":301.534,"end":302.094,"text":"社會社會社會社會社會社會社會社會"},{"start":326.508,"end":326.949,"text":"我們目前還是在合併會在城府公安也在閩南語呼羅發"},{"start":343.49,"end":346.692,"text":"臺灣的合法行為所以其實有開放心建議用語是不是主委針對這些客家的族群能夠好好跟他們溝通應該要目前看起來加了臺灣這兩個字既然引起這麼大的爭議的話那臺灣台語、臺灣原住民、臺灣客語、臺灣這樣"},{"start":369.787,"end":373.251,"text":"我們就在臺灣為什麼還要這樣子來去做這樣子我覺得有些很大的問題應該要讀書出局應該要去唐人的書書出局上研了也要有準聰明不錯我認同好 謝謝主委那曾主委你的看法呢針對這個原住民的部分"},{"start":388.686,"end":404.193,"text":"原住民如果這樣講的話應該是最早來到臺灣應該是臺灣最早的語言那曾主委的看法呢我們因為這個是很自然的我們都是給尊重各族群因為原住民我們也是臺灣原住民就是多尊重"},{"start":405.598,"end":433.952,"text":"對 我就覺得就是加這個臺灣之後會造成這麼大的一個爭議跟困擾是不是應該我覺得教育部這邊也要再這個審視一下那另外就是我請原民會曾主委就是針對我們的這個禁法補償的經費因為就原民會沒有辦法補足這個足額的預算所導致的那請問一下原民會在編列這些預算的時候有沒有積極那個谷主委還有其他幾位可以請你們先回座 謝謝"},{"start":435.052,"end":461.788,"text":"在編列這些預算的時候有沒有極力的向行政院爭取跟委員報告我們今年編28.16億已經是歷年來編最多的一次那麼一直以來淨華補償的這個經費本席請教的是你有沒有積極的向行政院爭取應該是要這個淨華補償的條例有那如果你有積極爭取的話請問是誰不同意這個原民會主要編取這一個相關的預算"},{"start":464.827,"end":492.097,"text":"因為我們就是說希望爭取就是主席總書這邊也來幫忙那如果是這個可以試狀況我們的歷年來我們的預算跟基金本來就是對等的來支應這一筆可是你現在基金目前大概只剩不到10億已經短出了67億所以你的基金其實基本上也是不夠的金額如果因為總的基金來講"},{"start":493.197,"end":494.659,"text":"社會福利、經濟發展根本就沒有禁法補償的科目"},{"start":505.595,"end":534.554,"text":"那要怎麼使用我們的收支保管還有這個運用的辦法確實有是可以來用來是哪一條是哪一條對第6應該是第5條可以用在進法補償的條例對而且歷年來已經大概有7、8年都是這樣是不是會後請這個主委把相關的這個內容給我因為其實請曾主委要多站在我們原民的立場多想一想如果這個現在就不同意您編列這筆預算的是有誰"},{"start":535.735,"end":564.381,"text":"你也可以大聲說出來我們國民黨團一定做你的後盾謝謝那這部分可能麻煩一下因為現在這個禁防本土條例已經三讀通過本來就應該要編列預算那這也是這次為什麼我們會退回程序委員會不是刪除而是退回主要就是因為這本來就是應該要編列在預算裡面的支出那為什麼不編列進去如果你有很大的壓力你說這個行政院有誰不同意那我想國民黨團會做你的後盾謝謝"},{"start":570.17,"end":570.191,"text":"好"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:49:25 - 10:58:56","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員、原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部，就「臺灣台語 」名詞是否符合「國家語言」定義？ 是否侵犯台灣其他語言併存地位？及修正「臺灣台語」政策進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155326","gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時49分）謝謝主席，請客委會古主委，還有原民會曾主委、文化部的李次長，以及教育部的梁司長。"],["主席：請古主委、曾主委、李次長，還有梁司長。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，還有次長、司長，大家好。今天我們召委安排這個專報，主要是針對這一次臺灣台語所引起的爭議，造成了很多不同族群對於語言的問題有各種不同的看法。國家語言發展法的制定，主要就是為了推廣多元語言，希望讓我們的母語能夠完整的保留，而且也希望能夠多多的推廣。","語言的發展非常重要，很多的文化傳承，古主委也常常提到很希望客家語言能夠好好的發展，未來不管是今年或明年的重點，今天爭議的地方就是文化部跟教育部把臺灣閩南語更名為臺灣台語，可是因為臺灣台語又很容易讓大家認為台語到底代表的是真正的台語，還是臺灣的語言，造成客家族群有蠻大的反彈，所以我想請教一下文化部的李次長，針對這一次推動這樣一個政策引起蠻大的爭議，請問你有什麼看法？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，語言名稱的問題在我們111年的語發報告裡面就有正式提出，這個語發報告要經過行政院核定，其實也經過各部會之間，還有跟語言團體之間非常多次的溝通跟協商，所以名稱最後定為臺灣台語，把台語當作一個專有名詞……"],["許委員宇甄：就是原來的閩南語嘛！"],["李次長靜慧：它不等於臺灣語言的簡稱，不要把它作為簡稱。"],["許委員宇甄：但是現在為什麼客家族群會反彈這麼大，他就覺得這樣子其實會讓人家覺得台語可能就是臺灣的語言，不然就是臺灣語言最重要的一個部分，所以造成……"],["李次長靜慧：我們溝通的不夠，我們再來努力溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：教育部梁司長，我有聽到你們建議優先使用，就是臺灣台語、臺灣原住民語及臺灣客家語這個部分是優先使用，可是我看你們的網站都已經改成臺灣台語，我們在查詢的時候都已經改成這樣了。"],["梁司長學政：跟委員報告，其實教育部主要是根據剛才所講的111年8月20號的語發決議，還有文化部，就是我們語言的專責機關，他們在今年6月20號發函給教育部，希望我們優先使用……"],["許委員宇甄：他們寫的是優先使用嘛！"],["梁司長學政：是。"],["許委員宇甄：並不是說一定要嘛！那為什麼查詢你們的網站，我看全部都已經更改成臺灣台語？"],["梁司長學政：因為他建議書面的書寫上要優先使用這些，不是只有臺灣台語，包括臺灣客語等等，教育部就是根據整個行政院的政策跟國家語言的決策來做。"],["許委員宇甄：我有一點不太理解，為什麼要加上「臺灣」這兩個字？因為我們都在臺灣，不管是台語、原住民語、客家語，本來都是我們使用的語言，因為你們特別提到要推廣語言，就是針對一些比較有傳承危機的母語，希望能夠來推動，加了「臺灣」這兩個字就不會有傳承危機了嗎？這是教育部還是文化部要回答？"],["梁司長學政：語言是文化部。"],["許委員宇甄：是文化部，好。"],["李次長靜慧：就是因為剛剛講台語作為一個專有名詞之後，我們擔心有的族群朋友會覺得好像被排除在臺灣之外，所以我們就會提出在名稱上面，大家都是臺灣的語言……"],["許委員宇甄：不過目前看起來，好像加了「臺灣」這兩個字之後，反而引起更大的反彈，剛剛有特別提到，可能客家族群現在的反彈最大。請問一下古主委，針對這個部分，您覺得這樣子是不是適當，然後會不會覺得這樣反而會讓客家族群覺得自己的語言沒有受到尊重？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想我們相當了解客家人作為一個少數族群需要讓人聽得到、看得到、尊重，所以客家族群的少數意見也要讓人聽得到，但是我們又尊重每一個族群在歷史文化的過程裡面，他怎麼喊自己的名字，這我們也尊重，所以在這個立場來看，我們是採開放性的態度。剛才委員有說是優先使用，不是唯一、一定，所以客委會在這個方面……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道就是優先使用，不過目前看來各個部會都已經開始使用，因為是行政院的相關……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們沒有，我們目前還是依照客委會來稱呼閩南語、Holo話，客家話就是稱臺灣客家話、客語這樣來做，所以其實有開放性。"],["許委員宇甄：其實以這個部分，還是希望……"],["古主任委員秀妃：建議用語。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，針對這些客家族群能夠好好地跟他們溝通……"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，應該要的。"],["許委員宇甄：因為目前看起來，加了「臺灣」這兩個字既然引起這麼大的爭議，那臺灣台語、臺灣原住民語、臺灣客語這些，我們就在臺灣了，為什麼還要去做這樣子的使用？我覺得有很大的問題。"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該要的，多數族群應該要聽我們少數族群的聲音，也要尊重，沒錯，我也是認同。"],["許委員宇甄：OK！謝謝主委。","曾主委，你的看法呢？針對原住民的部分，原住民如果照這樣講的話應該是最早來到臺灣，原住民族語應該是臺灣最早的語言，曾主委的看法呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個是很自然的，我們都是尊重各族群，因為我們也是臺灣原住民，就是多尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我是覺得加「臺灣」之後會造成這麼大的爭議跟困擾，是不是教育部這邊也應該要再省思一下？","另外，請問原民會曾主委，針對禁伐補償的經費，原民會沒有辦法補足足額的預算，請問一下原民會在編列這些預算的時候有沒有極力地向行政院爭取？","古主委還有其他幾位，你們可以先回座，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們今年編28.16億，已經是歷年來編最多的一次，一直以來禁伐補償的經費……"],["許委員宇甄：本席請教的是，你有沒有積極地向行政院爭取，應該是要依禁伐補償條例……"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["許委員宇甄：好，如果你有積極爭取的話，請問是誰不同意原民會足額編列相關的預算？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望爭取主計總處這邊也來幫忙，如果可以視狀況，歷年來我們的預算跟基金本來就是對等的來支應這一筆預算……"],["許委員宇甄：可是基金目前大概只剩不到10億，已經短絀了67億，所以你的基金其實基本上也是金額不夠的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：總的基金來講還夠支應，如果視狀況……"],["許委員宇甄：問題是一般我們基金的用途是用在社會福利、經濟發展，根本就沒有禁伐補償的科目，那要怎麼使用？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們的收支保管及運用辦法確實有，可以用來支應。"],["許委員宇甄：是哪一條？可不可以告訴我？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是第五條。"],["許委員宇甄：可以用在禁伐補償條例？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，而且歷年來大概已經有七、八年都是這樣。"],["許委員宇甄：好，是不是會後請主委把相關的內容給我？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["許委員宇甄：請曾主委要站在我們原民的立場多想一想。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：現在不同意您編列這筆預算的有誰，你也可以大聲說出來，我們國民黨黨團一定做你的後盾。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：這部分可能麻煩一下，因為現在禁伐補償條例已經三讀通過，本來就應該要編列預算，這也是這次為什麼我們會退回程序委員會，不是刪除而是退回，主要就是因為這本來就是應該編列在預算裡面的支出，為什麼不編列進去？如果你有很大的壓力，你說行政院有誰不同意，我想國民黨黨團會做你的後盾，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄主委。","接下來請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-4","speakers":["徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","張智倫","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","林倩綺","吳琪銘","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請邱部長委員好 委員辛苦了我先用差不多一分鐘兩分鐘時間跟大家報告這次的大災難因為秘書委員指教我很虛心接受他也非常用心那我跟大家報告"},{"start":36.109,"end":57.197,"text":"因為這個安泰醫療社同法安泰醫院是我跟我太太創立從零開始的醫院那現在的規模是600多床是重度責任醫院所以不是一個很爛的醫院是很認真的醫院這過去的30年也沒有發生過重大的災難"},{"start":58.638,"end":65.845,"text":"所以對於大家的指教我虛心接受沒有人希望發生這種事情"},{"start":67.438,"end":95.197,"text":"台大醫院開刀法我先回首處過所以大家都不惜我先做事我很感謝因為屏東縣縣長消防局衛生局警察局還有八軍團的全部都從頭到尾大家都要拚我五六十年來我沒有看過有一次這麼複合性的大災難同時在發生"},{"start":97.998,"end":121.312,"text":"而且那個風是12、13、14級而且暴雨狂風瞬間陣風達到16級、17級島上有碰到那個奈瑞隆他說他們小港那邊連貨櫃都被吹下來那整個東港安太縣前面的中正路我跟大家報告"},{"start":122.219,"end":141.798,"text":"那個招牌是一直飛、一直掉,好像血滴子一樣。所以你不把頭在外面停留30秒。那跟大家報告,發生的地點,剛剛林淑雯委員講的也不對,是在另外一邊的動力中心。"},{"start":142.879,"end":164.366,"text":"那全部都是煙因為發火 氣火所在是動力中心那現在檢調還有三組檢察官還有那個鑑識小組都在查起火他們非常非常的認真我很感謝他們那該負什麼責任就負什麼責任"},{"start":166.006,"end":174.337,"text":"我跟大家報告這個醫院我不是負責醫師但是我是創立的人我是榮譽院長所以我第一時間"},{"start":175.816,"end":196.132,"text":"第1時間到現在我都沒有我都勇敢面對那形式的部分現在已經在走那民事的部分我們也有比照部立臺北醫院上次的護理師家的那個民事模式一個一個處理我已經繞了好多圈了有"},{"start":197.917,"end":218.646,"text":"專人在陪伴等等該給的撫恤菌該給的商量補助費都已經花了一批又一批了那對於所有的轉出去的我們要報告300多個病人轉出去才100個表示說還有200多個在我們的前面的AV棟在處理在治療"},{"start":220.199,"end":229.221,"text":"那至於管縣老舊跟大家報告這一次發生事情的是低棟那是最新才十幾年那個管縣是沒有老舊"},{"start":230.356,"end":253.487,"text":"那前面的A、B棟反而是老舊但是A、B棟已經換了一輪了不管所有的管件都已經換了一輪了我們也不是笑的30年30來年沒有發生過公安事件那這一次發生我們是真的是非常痛心那也跟大家報告那個風跟雨實在太大"},{"start":254.688,"end":257.795,"text":"病人、家屬、還有消防隊,這單單消防隊才有200個弟兄"},{"start":261.499,"end":285.399,"text":"那所有的人還有我們員工差不多當時在施救700個人整個1000多個人全部都塞在ABC棟根本沒有人有辦法出去所以這種災難我昨天那很感謝我們卓院長也關心我們邱部長也第一時間在風雨交加就最厲害的那個當下就是災害中心正在"},{"start":288.481,"end":306.085,"text":"開會總統也在行政院長也在部長也在他們都打電話來關心所以我感謝陳其邁市長這裡要特別謝謝他派了21部救護車上面配備有護理師有醫師全部跑到東港來都在準備所以要感謝太多人"},{"start":308.871,"end":330.188,"text":"我跟大家報告消防隊一來他在二樓一樓的動力中心來動他發現那個溫度已經300多度所以一來就全部斷電台電就全部斷電那醫院裡面發電機不讓開分電盤是不是也燒掉了我們到現在還搞不太清楚"},{"start":331.604,"end":348.92,"text":"整棟大樓是黑媽媽的黑煙我們的護理人員是一個一個把病人背下來這一次嗆傷死亡的都是臥床的都是一些很複雜的癌末的等等所以以後要怎麼來"},{"start":350.58,"end":352.502,"text":"我們的護理師有一個護理師背一個105公斤的病人從11樓背下來"},{"start":373.999,"end":397.985,"text":"全身黑麻麻全身都是煙所以我對我們的醫護人員我最深最深的謝意還有我們消防局警察局連軍團的都來那陳其邁院長後來21輛救護車載了4個回到高雄長庚等等所以在這邊再一次的跟大家致謝那"},{"start":402.03,"end":425.877,"text":"會發生這種事情我們大家都虛心來檢討那現在因為我們是重度專業所以我們的量要如何來提升如何來恢復那設備我剛剛跟部長報告現在的設備我們再幫他提升現在是這樣我們再幫他往上提升變成更先進這倒是是不是更好的方法請部長給我們開示給我們實施一下"},{"start":431.93,"end":447.186,"text":"好,謝謝趙薇,真的也很感動趙薇這句虛話,她的觀念拍檔抽個電刀用,藉著她自己慘痛的經驗,她願意把這些經驗分享,也希望全國"},{"start":448.547,"end":450.088,"text":"我們的停車場就可以容納一千人"},{"start":477.591,"end":496.381,"text":"推出來就在外面然後明火就是魅火煙就排煙那個颱風是大到所有的孔都轉進去所以沒有在身歷其境的人我想沒有辦法去理解左院長隔天就到屏東去他就看到他一直跟我鼓勵"},{"start":497.398,"end":514.48,"text":"﹗"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:49:54 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11:58:28","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155325","gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時50分）謝謝主席，我請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：辛苦了！我先用一分鐘到兩分鐘時間跟大家報告這次大災難，因為林淑芬委員指教，我很虛心地接受，她也非常用心。我跟大家報告，安泰醫療社團法人安泰醫院是我跟我太太創立的，從零開始的醫院，現在的規模是六百多床，屬於重度責任醫院，所以不是一家很爛的醫院，而是很認真的醫院，過去的三十年也沒有發過重大的災難。所以，對於大家的指教，我虛心接受，沒有人希望發生這種事情；臺大醫院開刀房也發生過失火案，所以大家都不希望發生這種事情。","我很感謝，因為屏東縣縣長、消防局、衛生局、警察局，還有八軍團，全部都出動，從頭到尾，大家都在拚。五、六十年來，我沒有看過一次這種複合性的大災難同時發生，那個風是十二、十三、十四級；而且是暴雨狂風，瞬間陣風達到十六級、十七級，早上我碰到賴瑞隆委員，他也說他們小港那邊連貨櫃都被吹下來。在整個東港安泰醫院前面的中正路─我向大家報告，招牌一直飛、一直掉，好像血滴子一樣，所以沒辦法在外面停留30秒。","至於火災發生地點，剛剛林淑芬委員講得也不對，是在另外一邊的動力中心，全部都是煙。由於起火的地方是動力中心，現在檢調─三組檢察官還有鑑識小組都在查起火，他們非常、非常地認真，我很感謝他們，該負什麼責任就負什麼責任。我跟大家報告，這個醫院我不是負責醫師，但是我是創立的人、是榮譽院長，所以我第一時間到現在都勇敢面對，刑事部分現在已經在走、正在走；民事部分，我們也比照上次部立臺北醫院護理之家的民事模式，一個一個處理。我們已經繞了好多圈，包括有專人陪伴等等，該給的撫卹金、該給的喪葬補助費，都已經發了一批又一批。關於所有轉出去的病患，我跟大家報告，三百多個病人，其實轉出去的才100人，表示還有兩百多人還在前面的A、B棟處理、治療。","至於管線老舊，跟大家報告，這次發生事情的是D棟，是最新的、才十幾年，管線沒有老舊，前面的A、B棟反而老舊。但是A、B棟已經換了一輪，所有管線都已經換了一輪，我們又不是瘋子。三十來年沒有發生過公安事件，這次卻發生，我們真的非常痛心，也跟大家報告，那種風跟雨實在太大，病人、家屬、消防隊─單單消防隊差不多有兩百個弟兄、加上員工，當時在施救的有七百人，整個一千多人全部都塞在A、B、C棟，根本沒有人有辦法出去，是這種災難！","我很感謝昨天卓院長關心，邱部長也第一時間在風雨交加、也就是風雨最厲害的那個當下在災害中心開會，總統也在、行政院長也在、部長也在，他們都打電話來關心，所以我很感謝。對於陳其邁市長，我也要特別謝謝他，他派了21部救護車，上面配備護理師、醫師，全部跑到東港standby，所以要感謝的人真的太多了。消防隊一來，發現一樓動力中心那一棟的溫度已經達到三百多度，所以台電一來就全部斷電，醫院裡面的發電機也不讓我們打開，就連分電盤是不是燒掉了，我們到現在還搞不清楚。","當時整棟大樓黑麻麻的，都是黑煙，我們的護理人員把病人一個、一個的背下來，這次嗆傷死亡的都是臥床的病患，是一些病症很複雜的或是癌末等等。以後要怎麼補這一塊缺失？本席昨天也向內政部長報告，內政部和衛福部可以蓋一棟模擬大樓，模擬在狂風暴雨之下怎麼救援，我們有個護理師是從11樓背一個105公斤的病人下來，全身黑麻麻的，都是煙。","本席要對我們的醫護人員致最深、最深的謝意，還有消防局、警察局，連軍團的人都來支援，陳其邁市長派了21輛救護車，也載了四個病患回高雄長庚治療，在這邊再一次向大家致謝。發生這種事情，我們都要虛心檢討，因為我們是重度級急救責任醫院，所以我們的量能要如何提升、恢復？包括設備，我剛剛向部長報告，我們現在也在提升設備，希望往上提升變得更先進，這是不是更好的方法？請部長給我們開示，並且支持我們。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝召委。對於召委這席話，我們真的很感動，他的觀念就是「打斷手骨顛倒勇」，說出他自己慘痛的經驗，也願意分享這些經驗，希望全國以這樣的經驗為鑑，改善病人的安全問題，我在這邊表達敬意。衛福部不但會全力支持屏東的醫療量能再度提升，也希望我們所有的醫療院所能夠更安全，我們一定全力以赴。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。我們平常做消防演練都是風和日麗的天氣，在風和日麗的狀況下，我們的停車場可以容納1,000人，病床推出來就直接停放在外面，有明火就是滅火，有煙就排煙，但當時是颱風天，風大到從所有的孔隙鑽進去，沒有身歷其境的人沒有辦法理解。卓院長隔天就到屏東，他就有看到現場的狀況，而且他也一直鼓勵我。其實普通人遇到這樣的狀況，可能就直接趴下去了，幸好本席很堅強。在這裡向大家感謝，希望大家一起打拚、再接再厲，感謝部長，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝召委。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：謝謝部長。請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:04:18","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:56:56+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155324","委員名稱":"羅智強","duration":258,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:52:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600ae88e580f667340c74cc4e7309f7945e562b050408041dececbc4003ec59502775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.679718750000001,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.76784375,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.767218750000001,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.29221875,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.45659375,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.97534375,"end":67.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.08471875,"end":61.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.164718750000006,"end":62.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.00346875000001,"end":70.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.39971875,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.48409375,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.99409375,"end":74.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.15784375,"end":79.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.67221875,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.91221875000001,"end":84.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.67159375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.68846875,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.74596875,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.03284375000001,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.84096875,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.96409375000002,"end":190.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.06034375000002,"end":241.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.48221875000002,"end":191.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.86971875,"end":195.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.35784375,"end":204.15096875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主委有很明確的KPI可以定出來那包括我們前面提到的但是今年這半導體領域當然臺灣一直是翹楚 這就先不提那臺灣但是今年增加軍工產業的發展那我想請問這個工作指標 那主委是打算怎麼來設定我們的目標呢"},{"start":124.696,"end":152.592,"text":"那因為前面還有所謂的可以進到所謂實名內那請問你怎麼樣去設定新的目標把軍工產業軍事能力來到排名全球排名第10嗎有這個目標嗎這一部分現在還沒有特定的這個指標因為我們在起步當中那現在我們發展的重點就是要透過跟美國的合作因為在系統的規格上面我們還不熟悉譬如說我們最近經濟部跟國防部一起做的"},{"start":153.332,"end":154.313,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":172.907,"end":173.267,"text":"蔡英文總統揭示說要打造無人機國家隊"},{"start":200.918,"end":223.791,"text":"顯然這個目標可能還有很多路要走在您的那裡繼續努力那我這樣講全球知名的軍事網站全球火力他公布2024年軍力排名台灣位居24叫去年下滑一個名次所以我覺得這其實也是一個可以參考的一個指標那有明確的計畫跟目標所以立法院才能夠本於職權來審定預算但是"},{"start":225.672,"end":247.649,"text":"其實我到目前我覺得可能主委可能針對軍工這一塊因為我看我們賴總統非常重視這一塊所以這一塊既然做一個新的一個目標的話我覺得應該還是要有更加量化的一個指標能夠讓國人來參考好嗎我們跟經濟部來一起討論因為這個是經濟部在主政是好那就麻煩主委繼續努力謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":253.831,"end":256.18,"text":"好 謝謝羅智強委員那接下來我們有請"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:52:38 - 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time、集中在人力尖峰需求的派遣工作。主委，可不可以請處長跟各地的就業……"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會擴大宣導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是宣導，而是要訓練。"],["嚴主任委員德發：訓練。"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且不只是短役期的，可不可簡單回答一下，占用一點時間？"],["池處長玉蘭：報告委員，其實客運、大客車都非常地缺，但現在有一個原因要向委員報告，我們也去做過了解，因為受完訓之後要考照的過程必須經過3個月，在這3個月的空窗期就要等待，雖然我們很多退伍官兵有去受訓，但是沒辦法等3個月的空窗期再去考照，所以他們都跑掉了。我們現在要向委員報告，舉例來講，國光客運都主動來找我們，他們也知道存在著這3個月的問題，所以他們現在釋出了善意，也就是說，這3個月給你……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這3個月是哪個主管機關可以調整的？"],["池處長玉蘭：交通部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很簡單，我們就去找交通部協調，好不好？"],["池處長玉蘭：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我找客運業者，現在全聯會的理事長是屏東客運的董事長，他可以代表全國的需求，你們也一起來參與協調，我也會請交通部參加協調，讓我們的國軍退除役官兵在退伍前習得的第二技能、駕駛技能可以在退伍的第二春職涯貢獻給社會。"],["池處長玉蘭：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嗎？"],["池處長玉蘭：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，請指示一下，可以嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，未來我召開協調會時就請退輔會積極地協助處理，好不好？我們向交通部爭取、向衛福部爭取，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我們會積極協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委、懷念的88將軍，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，主委請回。","接下來請牛煦庭委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:05:12","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:52:57+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155322","委員名稱":"王育敏","duration":312,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:47:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a915c2a492e3375bab46d19fd1690e0d462b050408041deced14dcdfa401d4b915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.98784375,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.99159375,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.70346875,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.63159375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.65159375,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.469718750000002,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.40159375,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.28221875,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.62596875,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.97596875,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.45659375000001,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.47346875000001,"end":84.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.87846875000001,"end":84.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.19471875,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.61409375000001,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.89659375000001,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.85409375,"end":122.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.89346875000001,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.27721875,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.30596875,"end":165.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.83721875,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.74784375000002,"end":179.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.39534375000002,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.74471875,"end":191.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.30471875,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.00471875000002,"end":198.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.62909375,"end":196.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.73409375,"end":199.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.64534375000002,"end":200.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.51846875,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.23096875000002,"end":210.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.05284375000002,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.06909375,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.40221875,"end":220.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.77284375000002,"end":273.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.01346875,"end":281.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.80971875,"end":295.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.83909375,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.04159375,"end":283.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.29034375000003,"end":284.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.55096875000004,"end":291.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.95159375000003,"end":292.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.36034375,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.09846875,"end":297.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.75159375000004,"end":303.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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這個蚵農它所有的這個蚵棚的流失"},{"start":54.358,"end":54.378,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":80.923,"end":83.846,"text":"你認為這樣一個補助有沒有到位?要不要再繼續檢討?"},{"start":105.902,"end":124.107,"text":"我分兩個部分第一個部分就是我們天然災救助本身的精神是補助他成本的20%為基準大概有高高低低他不是為了他的實際的損失那第二個部分我也認為"},{"start":125.339,"end":125.379,"text":"姜蕙琳議員"},{"start":145.643,"end":145.703,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":164.781,"end":165.581,"text":"部長有沒有機會到阿里山去"},{"start":192.352,"end":220.64,"text":"我從午夜到現在應該去過了兩次了吧有去過兩次有沒有吃過阿里山山上的這個山葵山葵有沒有人招待你吃應該以前有吃過這兩次去好像沒吃到沒吃過齁那你下次我們一起上山齁請你吃齁這個山葵齁阿里山的山葵真的味道非常的好你自己有沒有覺得你以前吃有沒有覺得我知道我在農業實驗所所長的時候我就是推這個山葵到阿里山去的對"},{"start":221.44,"end":249.447,"text":"那很好但是現在呢當地的農民跟我反應喔就是他們現在因為為了保護這個林巷所以以前有一些可以種山葵的現在不行但是呢農民他們自己現在研發出來其實你們也研發出來他們可以呢變成是林下的經濟作物他已經可以變成是太空包農民跟我說他們可以用太空包就是來種山葵出來也不會破壞你的林巷那現在其實你們包括八月份你們也才"},{"start":250.127,"end":273.347,"text":"新增加三個項目我今天就是要幫阿里山的山魁請命就是可不可以把他納入你們的林下經濟作物創造雙贏因為他的品質真的非常的好我覺得如果可以讓他的量再增加的話可以進到五星級的飯店甚至可以出口就是幫助這個農民增加非常多的收入可不可以去演繹"},{"start":274.068,"end":294.851,"text":"我跟委員說明,就是林下經濟有一個非常重要的就是,不是任何作物都倒進去,我們最擔心的就是它的農藥的噴灑,影響了生態。所以後續我會去了解就是說,新的這些山葵的種植方法是不是真的達到友善,而且是不使用農藥的方式。如果是的話,我想我們可以來考慮看有什麼方式來處理。"},{"start":295.452,"end":296.213,"text":"王育敏委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:47:45 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主委這是商任第二次業務報告本席想今天就進一步跟你了解一下商任滿月的時候呢6月24日你有對媒體說希望任內培育第一位本土的諾貝爾得主那當然我們知道這是一個宏大的一個目標我們也都非常認同也希望一起來努力無論是過往的李遠哲先生丁兆中博士非常不簡單但是他們都有出國深造"},{"start":41.121,"end":60.236,"text":"那去年翁啟惠院士與此殊榮擦肩而過讓國人倍感惋惜當然我們非常期望可以看到台灣能夠誕生出自己一個本土培育出來的諾貝爾得獎那我有注意到你上任前有撰寫一篇文章大學憑什麼享有學術自由對吧"},{"start":60.996,"end":89.247,"text":"您具體的提到台灣目前學生不念博士班主要的原因是因為教授們沒有主動協助學生達成合理的學習目標且論文點數掛帥導致學生都在幫教授寫論文卻從來不在乎論文是否能夠有落實貢獻幫助通過嚴謹的國內外同儕互評機制您更直接提到如果以論文偏數為標準納迪院則院士就絕對不可能得到諾貝爾獎"},{"start":91.175,"end":112.948,"text":"那麼你問為接手國科會在你領導之下國科會對此具體的作為會是什麼是協助教育部來落實國內外的同儕互平機制還是如何落實產出更有貢獻的一個論文你對自己提出的培育地位本土諾貝爾得獎組的一個目標目前有多少信心我想這個部分我想聽聽你的想法"},{"start":113.917,"end":137.797,"text":"我的確是想要朝這個方向走就是說我們在學界的這個學術評量上面能夠鼓勵大家對於產生對人類社會的重大貢獻為目標而不是以只是論文發表的數量為目標因為學術的成果發表論文當然是很重要的一個傳遞知識的管道"},{"start":138.297,"end":138.517,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":157.202,"end":157.222,"text":"當然﹖"},{"start":185.819,"end":200.731,"text":"他還是一個工程師他真正把東西做出來那我們看到你現在有表態你的態度嗎還是持續會朝這個方向來努力有目標很好那具體有沒有什麼樣的做法甚至有沒有什麼期程但是我們行政不能干預學術所以我們就希望說"},{"start":201.732,"end":201.792,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":217.358,"end":217.378,"text":"謝謝羅委員"},{"start":246.633,"end":275.265,"text":"好那第二個問題我想問一下關於海外精創基地我們都知道國科會啟動了精創台灣方案目前拍板的基地應該是位於捷克的這個布拉格但是原本預計要9月正式營運卻沒能如期當時有提到外交部說是國科會請國科會來說明當時國科會的說明是說捷克正逢選舉內部有許多的意見要整合那如今選舉已經9月28日結束了請問捷克內部的意見是否已經整合完成"},{"start":275.725,"end":276.365,"text":"所以你跟各個黨派都有去做溝通?"},{"start":302.832,"end":329.186,"text":"都會溝通因為他們是執政聯盟所以其實對台灣都蠻友善的我想這個因為他有五黨聯盟的一個動盪那我想海盜黨現在集體退出聯合政府有關那包括捷克的外交部長也是海盜黨他現在也都有所辭職請問部長有沒有掌握相關的狀況這一部分我們會讓外交部來協助我們會跟外交部搭配搭配來進行後續的合作那你有信心今年會營運嗎"},{"start":330.649,"end":349.949,"text":"我有信心有信心有信心是好我想國人關心的是管轄權的問題喔台灣在這個項目中投入了121那現在並且根據官方捷克的一個表示將投入不少於3300萬美元以前話台捷之間的一個供應鏈的韌性但有捷克官員表態讓管轄權屬於台灣的相當困難"},{"start":353.333,"end":365.034,"text":"這是否意味著台灣的資金和技術上投入最終可能只是作為捷克建設金創園區我們要如何確保在這一項投資當中台灣在這個合作能夠獲得實質的管轄跟利多"},{"start":365.97,"end":386.425,"text":"我們倒不想去管轄啦我們是真正要進行合作那合作從國會的角度來看如果是學界之間的合作通常都不會有這個政治的干擾出現啦所以我還是蠻樂觀的當然管轄是其次啦但是我希望最重要是對台灣在合作過程當中有利多"},{"start":387.526,"end":387.646,"text":"謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:45:34 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11:52:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155321","gazette":{"lineno":905,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時45分）好，謝謝主席，有請吳主委。主委要喝水嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒關係。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不用？好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，這是上任第二次業務報告，本席想今天就進一步跟你瞭解一下。你上任滿一月的時候，在6月24日對媒體說，希望任內培育第一位本土的諾貝爾獎得主，當然我們知道這是一個宏大的目標，我們也都非常認同，也希望一起來努力，過往的李遠哲先生、丁肇中博士非常不簡單，但是他們都有出國深造。去年翁啟惠院士與此殊榮擦肩而過，讓國人備感婉惜，當然，我們非常期望可以看到臺灣能夠誕生出自己本土培育出來的一個諾貝爾獎得主，我有注意到你上任前有撰寫一篇文章「大學憑什麼享有學術自由」，對吧？您具體地提到，臺灣目前學生不唸博士班，主要的原因是因為教授們沒有主動協助學生達成合理的學習目標，寫論文點數掛帥，導致學生都在幫教授寫論文，卻從來不在乎論文是否能夠落實貢獻，幫助通過嚴謹的國內外同儕互評機制。您更直接提到，如果以論文篇數為標準，那李遠哲院士就絕對不可能得到諾貝爾獎，那麼您認為接手國科會，在您領導之下，國科會對此具體的作為會是什麼？是協助教育部來落實國內外的同儕互評機制，還是落實產出更有貢獻的論文？你對自己提出的培育第一位本土諾貝爾獎得主的目標，目前有多少的信心？這個部分，我想聽聽你的想法。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的確是想要朝這個方向走，就是說，我們在學界的學術評量上面能夠鼓勵大家，對於產生對人類社會的重大貢獻為目標，而不是只是以論文發表的數量為目標，因為學術的成果發表論文當然是很重要的一個傳遞知識的管道，但是最重要的是這個知識能夠造成對人類社會正面的重大影響，這個才是重點。所以如果他自己有辦法把研究成果結合應用，能夠把它落實落地，才能夠造成廣大的受益者，不要只是發表論文，期待人家看了論文就可以接續把它完成、應用，這一點其實是滿重要的，所以我會提到李遠哲院士的原因，是因為他把他的想法真正做成設備，設備可以做實驗，那個交叉分子束碰撞儀，造成後續的很多化學家想要瞭解他的理論是不是可以實現的時候，做出非常重大的貢獻，所以他不是只是一個科學家。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["吳主任委員誠文：他還是一個工程師，他真正把東西做出來。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們看到你現在有表態你的態度嗎，還是會持續朝這個方向來努力？有目標很好，那具體有沒有什麼樣的做法？甚至有沒有什麼期程？"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我們行政不能干預學術，所以我們就希望說，第一步，我們從這個學門召集人，我其實有表達我的理念，再來就是希望能夠在學校大學裡面，我們在下一屆的大學校長會議希望也能夠宣導這個事情，因為很多的學術評量辦法都是在大學裡面，學校自己制定的辦法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，我們希望你多溝通嘛，教育部以此方向進行……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在國科會，我們在教育部，也希望能夠逐漸改善，希望把行政干預的這種方式減低，讓學術自由發展，才有辦法可能產生……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然尊重學術自由，但我們也希望多溝通，能夠把你的理念也帶進去這一攤，大家一起努力，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝羅委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。那第二個問題，我想問一下，關於海外晶創基地，我們都知道國科會啟動了晶創臺灣方案，目前拍板的基地應該是位於捷克的布拉格，但是原本預計要9月正式營運，卻沒能如期達成，當時有提到，外交部說請國科會來說明，當時國科會的說明是捷克正逢選舉，內部有許多的意見要整合，如今選舉已經在9月28日結束了，請問捷克內部的意見是否已經整合完成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們還在整合當中，因為還有議長的選舉馬上要進行。因為捷克各個政黨對我們都很友善，所以我們不會預期有困難，只是說他們的意見我們要尊重，那我們跟捷克理工大學在布拉格的合作其實並沒有中斷，我們也持續在進行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你跟各個黨派都有去溝通？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都會溝通，因為他們是執政聯盟，所以其實對臺灣都滿友善的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為捷克有五黨聯盟的動盪，海盜黨現在集體退出聯合政府，包括捷克的外交部長也是海盜黨，他現在也都辭職，請問部長，有沒有掌握相關的狀況？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分我們會讓外交部來協助，我們會跟外交部搭配來進行後續的合作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你有信心今年會營運嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有信心，有信心。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有信心？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想國人關心的是管轄權的問題，臺灣在這個項目中投入了120億，並且根據捷克官方的表示，將投入不少於3,300萬美元，以強化台捷之間供應鏈的韌性。但有捷克官員表態，讓管轄權屬於臺灣相當困難，這是否意味著臺灣的資金和技術投入最終可能只是協助捷克建設晶創園區？我們要如何確保在這一項投資當中，臺灣在這個合作，能夠獲得實質的管轄跟利多？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們倒不想去管轄，我們是真正要進行合作，從國會的角度來看，如果是學界之間的合作，通常就不會有政治的干擾出現，所以我還是還滿樂觀的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然管轄是其次啦，但是最重要的是對臺灣在合作的過程中有利多。"],["吳主任委員誠文：一定室有利的，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分是我必須要表達深切的關心，這樣的技術、這樣子的合作，當然我們都認同，我們也希望一定要特別注意一些細節，讓這件事情不只在推動的時候順利，推動之後，還能夠帶來臺捷雙方重大的利益。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。我會照顧到讓這個合作對彼此都會有利，對臺灣也是會有利的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。","我們接著繼續質詢，請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:06:40","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:49:11+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155320","委員名稱":"羅智強","duration":400,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:42:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a461df8c0086f47956947fb22ff9043c662b050408041deced5801bde4e9c74805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.43159375,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.114093750000002,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.31221875,"end":78.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.22534375000001,"end":79.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.63846875,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.30471875,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.34596875000001,"end":101.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.31471875000001,"end":167.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.87159375,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.81659375000001,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.86971875,"end":180.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.62471875,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.57659375,"end":210.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.83346875,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.02721875,"end":292.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.13284375,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.28846875,"end":301.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.08909375,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.98346875000004,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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舉國皆戰嘛 對不對打這場戰爭但是即便到了烏克蘭這個狀況今天也出現非常多悲觀的一個預測"},{"start":331.559,"end":358.488,"text":"更何況因為主委你不只是退輔委主委你也當過國防部長那很多人也講說今天你要去搞一個所謂的那個40萬的所謂的可視名利可是國軍的志願役人數6月以來近年創近年新低多數戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成這些所謂的現役跟所謂的志願役的這個編組跟編隊長期有不足的現象嘛對不對"},{"start":358.988,"end":382.633,"text":"您當過前面的幾位部會首長嗎?目前看比例是比較不一樣如果說今天我們的賴總統他的防衛計畫他認為說我們要把剛剛你講退出役官兵當作一個所謂的動員的主力那你覺得退出役官兵在未來萬一發生戰事他的所謂的戰鬥的那個力量強還是現在志願役的官兵力量強?"},{"start":383.84,"end":384.901,"text":"這當然是志願役的官兵"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:42:31 - 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上次的楷米颱風最主要是"},{"start":44.821,"end":46.422,"text":"所以你們會把他給診病在一起做處理嗎?還是你會怎麼處理?"},{"start":73.151,"end":73.911,"text":"這兩個縣市都已經提出全品項"},{"start":96.02,"end":109.113,"text":"我們基本上專家會議正在開那我所得到的訊息大概會開這個全品項的部分但是免限刊的部分會根據作物項目而不一樣主要的受災的作物項目會開免限刊"},{"start":111.255,"end":112.476,"text":"我希望說只要照片就認定了"},{"start":139.858,"end":151.64,"text":"對 不要再那麼樣的對 只要證明他有種植而且不只是照片如果你曾經跟我們有來往的相關的你有申報不然這樣重述的話可以多快"},{"start":152.648,"end":175.188,"text":"重述的話 這個要看公所的部分 我們現在跟公所協調有沒有一個目標值 什麼 多久時間大概一個月到40天之內 我們希望說趕一下好不好 我們希望一個月內把它完成好不好就是盡量 最快時間讓這些受到風災的競速來完成我在這邊也跟委員說明 就是公所在當你開全品項的時候 公所的負擔是非常大的"},{"start":176.128,"end":200.749,"text":"所以我們也希望說 縣市政府的工作 縣市政府能夠幫忙整個群力來協助好不好 群力來協助再來我請教一下 立法院因為現在還沒有審總預算 那我看到這個從新興的到新增計畫到前瞻的部分大概有414億會受到影響 其他既有大概照做部長 那如果遲遲的沒有來審這個總預算 這些部分怎麼來進行"},{"start":201.59,"end":202.19,"text":"部長,那如果沒有的話,你有什麼樣的..."},{"start":223.803,"end":245.176,"text":"沒有的部分我們可能會針對我們原來的預算因為有很多治水預算、農水路的預算是新增的嘛那如果說原來的預算還有一些的話我們原來預算會先處理但是那個處理量能就會弱很多啦所以我們還是希望說總預算能夠儘速的赴委來跟委員報告相關的預算我們的執行的目標"},{"start":247.061,"end":247.302,"text":"立法院"},{"start":264.842,"end":269.506,"text":"行政院提出預算 立法院審議這本來就職責啦 憲政職責 那應該儘速來審議 有問題的部分 要刪減要凍結都可以來進行討論 但是全面沒辦法進到來 我覺得這個立法院反而會是失職啦所以我們希望委員能夠支持 然後盡快讓我們的預算能夠送副委送審"},{"start":282.938,"end":304.187,"text":"再來我請教一下其實這一次的斑斑喝鮮奶其實我認為是一個很好的政策因為孩子們多喝鮮奶那我看到昨天高雄很多地方也都開始在鮮奶的利用第二節下課時間來發那大概有些不能執行我看到我今天七成選包酒乳大概他們遇到問題都是因為可能是因為冷戀的部分"},{"start":305.127,"end":305.628,"text":"部長你應該支持多推鮮乳對不對?"},{"start":326.004,"end":344.813,"text":"我們基本上當因為鮮乳跟保酒是一樣好品質都好但是用鮮乳的部分也許如果大家願意喝鮮乳我們希望也鼓勵喝鮮乳所以我們會讓鮮乳的冷鏈能夠確保讓消費者就是學校的這些訂閱者或者學童放心的時候他訂單就會慢慢的會做一點調整"},{"start":346.173,"end":361.778,"text":"所以農業部這邊會持續協助做冷鏈這一塊對 這個部分我們在規範裡面就是說先爐的部分冷鏈車到了學校有保冷袋能夠分送來確保他全程就是在一個控溫的條件之下去發放"},{"start":363.148,"end":364.188,"text":"對,我們會提供比較安全的資訊給這些學校"},{"start":390.827,"end":415.996,"text":"可不可以給我一份報告好不好一個月內給我一份你們推動的報告我希望這一個比例部長有沒有一個目標知道什麼時候提升到一個比例孩子們會選擇多少比例一定是他的便利性跟安全性的信任對農業部來講只要是牛奶都是好的不管是保酒乳跟鮮乳那保酒乳跟鮮乳基本上就是由學校來訂但是我們會把相關的背景資訊會提供給學校"},{"start":416.976,"end":435.505,"text":"也讓他知道鮮乳沒有比較不安全讓他們在這個充分的資訊的前提之下去做自己的選擇我相信如果在同樣的情況下安全跟保險各方面顧慮一下我相信會更多人選擇鮮乳的選擇啦我認為他們對於不選鮮乳我覺得他們的顧慮應該來自於是安全或者是保"},{"start":438.766,"end":438.886,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":462.483,"end":462.523,"text":"賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":479.568,"end":479.608,"text":"賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":507.995,"end":508.055,"text":"我希望："},{"start":529.778,"end":529.958,"text":"賴瑞隆議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:38:28 - 11:47:35","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155319","gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時38分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這一次的颱風其實相當地大，特別是在高雄港有17級的強風，連貨櫃都吹倒，當然農損的問題也相當嚴重，目前報起來大概是4.4億，可能還會持續增加。我想問的是，部長，這一部分能夠從寬、從優、從速，儘速來審議嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，上一次的凱米颱風最主要是雨量，雨量太多。"],["賴委員瑞隆：上次是雨，這一次是風。"],["陳部長駿季：這一次是風的部分。上一次的雨量已經造成高屏地區普遍性的災情，所以我們開了非常多的全品項跟免現勘的部分，整個農損金額大概到49億。這一次是因為短短兩個月的時間再次損害，再次損害的話，我們在今天也會開專家會議，在高屏地區……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你們會把它整併在一起做處理嗎？還是你們會怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，它是獨立事件，但是相對的我們會儘快，我們的同仁大概到高屏地區去看啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：大概什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳部長駿季：今天下午到明天我們一定會公告，全品項的部分我們會公告，然後免現勘的部分，我們也會公告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：高雄跟屏東這次大概是受災最嚴重的，當然臺東也嚴重……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我是說這兩個縣市都已經提出全品項，我希望部長能夠儘速來……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們基本上正在開專家會議，我所得到的訊息大概會開全品項的部分，但是免現勘的部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以應該是會支持全品項？"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是免現勘的部分會根據作物項目而不一樣，主要受災的作物項目會開免現勘，但是上一次領過的不能再領，大概是這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個當然，上次如果已經有領過了，這麼短的時間內就不能再領。好，所以今天應該全品項就會確定了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，今天晚上我回去以後會批，或者是最慢明天早上就會公布。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，全品項整個公布？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長。什麼時候可以把這些補償儘速給到農民身上？"],["陳部長駿季：如果是免現勘的部分，我們希望只要照片就認定了，就不用，因為只要證明……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要再那麼樣的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，只要證明他有種植，而且不只是照片，如果你曾經跟我們有來往的，你有申報相關的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這樣從速的話，可以多快？"],["陳部長駿季：從速的話，這個要看公所的部分，我們現在跟公所也協調……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們有沒有一個目標值，多久的時間？"],["陳部長駿季：大概一個月到40天之內，我們希望能夠……"],["賴委員瑞隆：趕一下，好不好？我們希望一個月內把它完成，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，就是儘量跟縣政府……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們儘量在最快的時間，讓這些受到風災的儘速來完成。"],["陳部長駿季：我在這邊也跟委員說明，就是當你開全品項的時候，公所的負擔是非常大的，所以我們也希望縣市政府能夠來幫忙公所……"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，就是整個全力來協助，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會全力來協助。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下，因為立法院現在還沒有審總預算，我看到農業部的新興、新增計畫跟前瞻的部分，大約有414億會受到影響，其他既有的大概可以照做。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，如果遲遲沒有審總預算的話，這些部分怎麼來進行？"],["陳部長駿季：在新興跟新增的部分，有一大部分是農水路的預算；另外還有包括冷鏈的預算，這個都是我們農業的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這些都很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：都是基礎建設，基礎建設一定要有經費支持，所以我們還是希望……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，如果沒有的話，你有什麼樣的因應之道？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有的話，我們可能會針對我們原來的預算，因為有很多治水預算、農水路的預算是新增的，如果原來的預算還有一些的話，我們原來的預算會先處理，但是那個處理量能就會弱很多，所以我們還是希望總預算能夠儘速的付委，來跟委員報告相關的預算以及我們的執行目標。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看到裡面有很多涉及到給地方政府的補助，大概有286億的部分，這個部分也會受到影響，因為它也是整個新增跟新興計畫的部分，如果遲遲沒有通過，這286億就不能執行囉？"],["陳部長駿季：對，不能，就沒辦法做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們還是希望儘快，行政院提出預算，立法院審議，這本來就是憲政職責，應該儘速來審議，有問題的部分要刪減、要凍結都可以進行討論，但是全面沒辦法進到院會來討論，我覺得這樣立法院反而是失職。"],["陳部長駿季：是，所以我們希望委員能夠支持，然後儘快讓我們的預算能夠付委送審。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下，其實我認為這一次「班班喝鮮奶」是一個很好的政策，因為孩子們可以多喝鮮奶。我看到昨天高雄的很多學校也都開始在利用第二節的下課時間來發鮮奶，大概有些不能執行，我看到有接近七成是選保久乳，大概他們遇到的問題可能都是因為冷鏈的部分，這部分部長有沒有什麼好的方案？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，以現在目前學校送過來的調查數據，大概七成五是保久乳，二成二是鮮乳，然後其他的是不適合喝牛奶的部分，我們也了解，學校擔心鮮乳的部分可能涉及冷鏈的問題，所以，當我們慢慢的冷鏈的部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，你應該支持可以多喝鮮乳，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：因為鮮乳跟保久乳是一樣好，品質都好，但是用鮮乳的部分，也許如果大家願意喝鮮乳，我們希望也鼓勵喝鮮乳，所以我們會讓鮮乳的冷鏈能夠確保讓消費者，就是學校的這些訂閱者或是學童放心的時候，他的訂單就慢慢的會做一點調整，所以我們……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以農業部這邊會持續協助做冷鏈這一塊？"],["陳部長駿季：對，鮮乳這個部分我們有規範，冷鏈車到學校後用保冷袋來分送，以確保能夠全程在一個控溫的條件之下去發放。"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別去看各個區域的狀況，北區選保久乳的比例有八成八，這個相當高；包括中區也到將近八成；反倒是南部較低，所以我覺得這一塊可能還是要請部長持續來推。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得喝鮮乳對孩子們其實是很好的，我希望這個政策能夠去支持給孩子們更好的、更健康的鮮乳，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會提供比較完全的資訊給這些學校。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，那可不可以給我一份報告，好不好？一個月內給我一份你們推動的報告，我希望這個比例，部長有沒有一個目標，知道什麼時候提升到一個比例？"],["陳部長駿季：我想……"],["賴委員瑞隆：孩子們會選擇何種乳品，一定是基於對它的便利性跟安全性的信任。"],["陳部長駿季：對農業部來講，只要是牛奶都是好的，不管是保久乳或是鮮乳，至於選擇保久乳或是鮮乳，基本上就是由學校決定，但是我們會把相關的背景資訊提供給學校，也讓他們知道鮮乳沒有比較不安全，讓他們能在有充分資訊的前提之下去做自由的選擇。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我相信如果在同樣的條件下，安全跟保鮮各方面沒有顧慮的話，我相信會有更多人傾向鮮乳的選擇……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們尊重。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對於他們不選鮮乳，我覺得他們的顧慮應該來自於安全或者是不是能夠保鮮的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以這個部分，我們會把……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望這一塊，農業部還是要協助去做一些……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來協助確保它冷鏈的安全性，最後是由消費者這邊來選擇。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我問一下，我最近看到，其實中國是把水果作為一個統戰的工具，部長有沒有這樣的感覺？"],["陳部長駿季：我個人認為中國市場的不確定性非常高，像他這次開放的文旦，他是透過縣市政府去公布的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：他甚至於只給特定的縣市，就是對他友善的，聽從他的話的縣市就給一些……"],["陳部長駿季：對，特定的縣市去處理的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這其實就像是統戰的工具，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這就是不符合國際規範的部分，像文旦的部分，它的時間又非常短，實際上以我們現在統計到的資料，全臺灣的文旦產量大概有六萬多噸……"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括現在對於那34項農產品也開始要課徵關稅，所以我覺得他其實是很有策略性，我要講的是，一個專制的國家其實風險本來就很高，他要給你、不給你，都是養套殺的一環。當年在2005年的時候，他可以給你市場來養你，之後把你套住，但是到現在你不聽他的，他就把你殺了，所以我認為跟專制國家做生意其實是高風險。所以，我也希望未來持續往美國、日本，特別是就近的日本、韓國這部分的市場，部長再大力的來推動。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，持續開發中國以外的高端市場是我們的政策，以數字為例，過去三年來，輸往大陸以外市場的金額從38億變成49億……"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我希望有更具體的成效出來，好不好？能更快的看到成果，特別是在日本跟韓國……"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想這個市場應該是很快可以打開，我希望包括東南亞的市場都起來，我希望就近的距離能有更具體的成效，部長也要加大力道，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在預算跟資源上加大力道，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，短短超時了45秒，部長請回座。","下一位請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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︎"},{"start":321.348,"end":340.322,"text":"那不僅是這個國安危機啦,我覺得說剛剛講的台灣整個人口的結構我覺得真的要去正視這個問題而且剛剛部長我剛剛也有聽其他的委員有特別提到他是跨部會要去討論的一個非常嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":341.323,"end":356.309,"text":"那當然我們希望就是說真的要去正視要不然這個議題今年是這樣子明年這個問題還是存在那我們當然也希望就是說孩子生出來之後一個都不能少這個我也時常在委員會的時候就提到"},{"start":356.869,"end":372.432,"text":"﹗"},{"start":372.452,"end":373.992,"text":"我只要是專科醫學會提出來的我們都非常的"},{"start":402.041,"end":412.293,"text":"呃尊重跟一定覺得有他的必要性嗯那在行政上我們怎麼樣來幫忙推動這個我們會是一定來演繹所以我"},{"start":413.508,"end":432.329,"text":"如果說不管是台大的兒童醫院我想整個兒科醫學會這才是整體的啦不是因為醫院有醫院的一個發展的看法和基層很多很多的兒童還是在社區照顧嘛所以那如果說兒童醫學會的意見我相信是很重要"},{"start":434.932,"end":449.765,"text":"當然我知道全台灣的這個兒童醫院其實是不多那兒童醫院其實在整個醫療的這個經營當中他是不會賺錢的一個單位那現在目前的這個兒科醫師其實也很難招聘"},{"start":450.486,"end":465.538,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":465.658,"end":492.379,"text":"就是新生兒啦或者是兒童癌症啊或者是兒童比較罕見疾病或者是兒童的遺傳疾病這些那我們也希望當然我們希望就是說兒童能夠就近照顧那如果說針對這些重症或者是罕見疾病我們也希望能夠有一個比較專比較這個比較好的單位來做研究來做治療"},{"start":493.08,"end":494.22,"text":"那我希望說衛福部針對這一部分應該要去好好的思考。"},{"start":521.608,"end":548.52,"text":"我在這邊還是要呼籲所有的醫院我們政府要幫助你醫院好好的來運作但是各個醫院對於沒有賺錢的部門但是他是必要的一定要全力的支持包括設立兒童醫院那如果是必要的話我想各個大醫院應該都要來做這件事情不要因為他可能沒賺錢"},{"start":550.021,"end":570.232,"text":"我把它縮小規模那這在醫院裡面其實我們在醫學中心的現在是五大或六大任務裡面其實在這個部分也一直在很注意那比如說台大醫院如果你在公佈因為我當過部主任嘛如果我們都是屬於那種賠錢的"},{"start":571.971,"end":601.971,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":601.971,"end":622.666,"text":"那一些這個譬如說人員的培訓啊要怎麼去做我覺得這個應該也是衛福部這邊要去這個我們會全力以赴好那另外最後一個我想請教就是說剛剛講的這個少子化那如果有結婚的話他當然有的都希望能夠有孩子啦那現在嚴重的是不婚啦我現在講的是"},{"start":623.346,"end":648.127,"text":"未來結婚之後的這一對年輕人我這樣講那這個年輕人結婚之後那有的是想說我可能等到這個工作穩定之後然後再來生小孩那有時候等到工作穩定之後可能都30幾歲了那對於一個女生來講他這個整個卵巢或者是卵子他的這個品質沒有那麼好受孕就會比較困難"},{"start":648.848,"end":665.896,"text":"︎"},{"start":665.896,"end":694.292,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":694.873,"end":711.307,"text":"他是不是他自己也要去考慮一下那我是不是要趕快如果想要有孩子的話那我是不是也要趕快這個準備生育的這個計畫所以我是不是請部長未來有沒有可能在婚前的健康檢查當中就是針對這一部分來做檢查"},{"start":711.687,"end":735.468,"text":"如果他有幫助我們只要有幫助我們受孕或者少子化的任何政策我相信我們都一定要全力以赴好那我也希望就是說部長針對這部分你們要去好好的思考是因為少子化確實真的是非常的嚴重而且我剛剛聽到今年到目前為止剩下8萬多人真的是非常嚴重的一個問題因為去年還有13萬今年剩下8萬好謝謝好謝謝謝偉"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:32:12 - 11:44:31","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155317","gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時32分）謝謝主席，我請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我們知道去年全年度新生兒差不多是13萬人嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：那我想請教，到目前為止，全臺灣新生兒是多少？"],["邱部長泰源：到現在是大概八萬人。"],["黃委員秀芳：到現在剩下八萬？"],["邱部長泰源：八萬多。"],["黃委員秀芳：八萬多？去年13萬，而今年到目前已經10月份了，只剩下八萬多，預計到年底，我看也差不多10萬左右。"],["邱部長泰源：大概十二萬多。"],["黃委員秀芳：十二萬多喔？剩下三個月的時間，可以到十二萬多？好，那我們就期待。","我想少子化的問題應該有很多人非常擔心，出生率一直在下降，人數從去年的13萬，今年到目前為止是八萬多……算9萬好了，我相信這也是衛福部一項非常重要的課題。","今天在討論人工生殖法的進度。其實一個國家的進步，對兒童的照顧還有對婦女健康的照顧具有指標性啦！少子化議題有很多面向，我想請教的是目前兒童權益還有婦女健康的區塊，我們現在看到很多女生或者已經結婚的年輕朋友，我相信相較於很多會有結婚的打算，其實造成少子化更嚴重的問題是不婚─年輕人是完全不結婚，是完全不結婚喔！不結婚然後造成少子化。如果有結婚的話，其實生育比例應該是跟以往差不多啦！有結婚者大部分都會想要有孩子，目前是這樣的狀況。為什麼有很多年輕朋友不想結婚？其實他們也想到很多啦！可能就是孩子未來的教育問題，或是女生原本現在有工作，想等到工作穩定之後才結婚、才要有小孩。那我想請教部長或署長，像這樣的狀況，衛福部這邊未來有沒有什麼樣的因應對策？我相信衛福部針對少子化的因應對策應該很多啦！除了一些生育補助之外，你們應該也有很多對策，是不是可以請部長先簡單說明一下？"],["邱部長泰源：好。行政院有四個方向，希望大家變成願意生、快樂地養。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是應該也想要讓民眾想要結婚吧！現在有很多人不婚，那怎麼辦，部長？應該說很多年輕人是不想結婚。如果結婚的話，幾乎……應該都會想要有孩子，目前是這個狀況。至於不婚的部分，我也希望……當然請衛福部在這方面研究怎麼樣鼓勵年輕朋友結婚……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們先解決我們可以做到的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["邱部長泰源：比如說讓他們知道生了以後，小孩子會得到很好的照顧，不用排隊進入公托，其實透過準公共化等各方面措施，都可以讓孩子好好地上學，然後，勞動部也在處理這個部分，讓家長還可以上班。這些條件都好了的話，我覺得可能有幫助。因為有的人是覺得又不生小孩、幹嘛結婚，但如果聽說生也不錯，可能……我覺得有男女朋友的人很多嘛！那就可能要求男朋友結婚。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我們希望衛福部真的要處理少子化議題。我們一直講這就是國安議題、國安危機。你看今年是龍年喔！以往大家會覺得龍年新生兒應該會比往年還要多，但是照這個狀況的話，其實今年的新生兒沒有比去年還多欸！今年就是龍年！當然，不知道會不會是因為生肖這個觀念逐漸不存在，可是我還是覺得如果出生數逐年下降，其實對於臺灣真的是非常重要、嚴重的課題。不僅是國安危機，如同剛剛講的，也影響臺灣整個人口結構，我覺得真的要正視這個問題。而且我剛剛也聽其他委員特別提到，它是要跨部會討論、非常嚴重的問題，當然我希望真的要正視，要不然這個議題今年是這樣，明年這個問題還是存在。","我們當然也希望孩子生出來以後一個都不能少，我時常在委員會提到，孩子生出來之後，一個都不能少，但我們新生兒的死亡率其實比鄰近國家還高。我們也看到臺灣的兒童醫院，大家會擔心孩子生出來之後是不是可以得到好的照顧，臺大兒童醫院也表示希望政府能夠成立國家級的兒童健康研究中心，帶動臺灣的兒童醫療發展，讓新生兒跟孕婦能夠得到好的照顧。我想請教部長，你怎麼看？"],["邱部長泰源：只要是專科醫學會提出來的意見，我們都非常尊重，也覺得有一定的必要性，對於在行政上怎麼幫忙推動，我們一定來研議。但不只是臺大兒童醫院，我想整個兒科醫學會才是整體的，因為醫院有醫院發展上的看法，而基層很多、很多兒童還是在社區照顧嘛！兒科醫學會的意見我相信也是很重要的。"],["黃委員秀芳：我知道全臺灣的兒童醫院其實不多，而在臺灣醫療經營當中，兒童醫院其實是不會賺錢的單位；目前兒科醫師其實也很難招聘，很多醫院的兒科醫師真的都是缺人，臺大醫院提出這樣的想法，我希望衛福部也應該正視這個問題。尤其是對於兒童碰到重症，包括新生兒、兒童癌症、兒童罕見疾病或遺傳疾病，我們當然希望兒童能夠就近照顧，針對這些重症或罕見疾病，也希望能夠有比較好的單位做研究、做治療。由於罕病散落在各個縣市，如果可以在……譬如說臺大醫院設置針對兒童急重症的研究中心的話，我覺得對於這些罹患重症或罕見疾病的孩子們有很大的幫助，衛福部針對這部分應該好好思考。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我在這邊還是要呼籲所有醫院，政府要幫助醫院好好運作，各個醫院對於沒有賺錢、但是必要的部門也一定要全力支持，包括設立兒童醫院。如果必要的話，我想各個大醫院應該都要做這件事情，不要因為它可能沒賺錢就將它縮小規模。在醫學中心現在的五大或六大任務裡面，其實在這部分也很注意，譬如說臺大醫院─我當過部主任嘛！我們都屬於賠錢的部門，每次都是「頭殼抱著燒」……"],["黃委員秀芳：沒關係，部長，因為時間的關係……"],["邱部長泰源：我必須呼籲，對於兒童急重症，尤其是罕病這個部分，一定要予以加強支援，這些領域的專家真的很需要幫助。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，這樣的話，各個醫院對於兒童急重難罕疾病應該也要有這些醫師來照顧嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：譬如說人員的培訓要怎麼做，我覺得應該也是衛福部要……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會全力以赴。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。最後一點，我想請教的就是剛剛講的：關於少子化，如果民眾結婚，有些人當然希望有孩子，嚴重的是不婚，而我現在要講的是未來結婚之後的年輕人。年輕人結婚之後，有的人是想等工作穩定之後再生小孩，但有時等到工作穩定之後可能都三十幾歲了。對於一個女生來講，要是卵巢或卵子的品質沒有那麼好，受孕就會比較困難。我在想的是未來有沒有可能處理？現在有婚前健康檢查，在婚前健康檢查當中，是不是有針對AMH檢查？這是抗穆勒氏管荷爾蒙，可以檢查到卵巢的功能以及生育力。譬如說這個女孩可能是二十幾歲，受孕機會非常高，可是卵巢或卵子的品質會隨著年齡下降嘛！等到她三十幾歲想受孕的話，也許就會非常地困難。如果她在婚前有做這樣的評估，未來是不是自己也會考慮一下，如果想要有孩子，是不是要趕快準備生育計畫？所以請問部長，未來是不是有可能在婚前健康檢查當中針對這部分來做檢查？"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，我們研議，只要是有幫助受孕或解決少子化的任何政策，我相信我們都一定要全力以赴。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我也希望部長針對這部分要好好地思考。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為少子化確實、真的非常嚴重。而且我剛剛聽到今年到目前為止新生兒剩下八萬多人，真的是非常嚴重的問題，因為去年還有13萬，今年剩下8萬。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝黃委員。","現在處理臨時提案，總共有6案，請一併宣讀。","一、","有鑑於我國家外安置之特殊需求兒少逐年增加，從110年之718人、111年之993人提高至112年之1,243人。其中約有15%（111年154人、112年176人）被安置在一般護理之家、身心障礙福利機構、長照機構、精神復健機構等成人機構中，且主管機關未落實定期檢視是類特殊需求兒少之安置必要性及成效，導致有69.3%特殊需求兒少在成人機構安置超過2年，甚至有40%達5年以上，有24.7%已逾10年，並受到監察院糾正。","因安置特殊需求兒少人數成長，安置需求增加，爰要求衛福部於一個月內，邀集安置機構負責人召開專案檢討會，針對如何提高安置人數、增加人力及預算資源等議題，提出具體改善策進作為，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　陳昭姿　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　蘇清泉","二、","案由：","有鑑於政府近年來戮力推動子宮頸癌防治，自HPV疫苗施打和抹片篩檢等有效預防後，我國婦女罹患子宮頸癌人數逐年下降，根據衛生福利部國民健康署之子宮頸癌篩檢登記報告顯示，子宮頸癌發生人數從1995年2,136人下降至2021年1,147人，降幅已超過五成，成效顯著。","惟我國婦女之子宮體癌發生率卻逐年提升，根據統計，自1995年295人提升至2021年3,205人，上升十倍之多，顯示相較於子宮頸癌，我國對於子宮體癌之防治措施未臻完善。再者，子宮體癌好發於停經後的女性，主要年齡層為50至75歲，根據統計，該年齡層之女性人數約有400萬人，並且子宮體癌之篩檢費用約600元，若以每3年進行一次篩檢，政府所需補助的金額粗估約為10億元，並非不可負擔的支出，為保障女性健康權益，請衛生福利部儘速就子宮體癌篩檢補助一事進行研擬，並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出具體之實施規劃。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　王正旭　　廖偉翔　　蘇清泉","三、","案由：","有鑑於中央政府在為解決少子化國安危機和加強婦幼健康照護及優生保健服務之際，乃應積極解決當前羊膜穿刺檢驗費補助近10年未有調整，以及優生保健血液染色體檢驗、染色體異常再確診檢驗等費用補助始終未有調整等，皆與目前檢驗物價及人力各方面上漲成本不符之情事。是以，為求前述施政措施之維持，並落實國民享有之檢驗服務可穩定於民間供應，特提案要求衛福部限期於一個月內啟動改善檢討措施，俟後於二個月內提交解決規劃之書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　廖偉翔　　蘇清泉","四、","台灣電力公司經電價費率審議會於2024年9月30日共識決議，將就產業用電部分調整，其中醫院（行業統計分類861）及診所（行業統計分類862）的部分，考量到醫療與民生物價相關性較高，且醫院、診所用電多為剛性需求，貿然調漲電價將影響其穩定營運，雖2024年10月03日經濟部已說明將建議電價費率審議會將醫院、診所列入電價凍漲，醫院、診所之主管機關衛生福利部仍應持續向經濟部等單位溝通及提供協助，以確保2024年10月16日實施電價調漲時，醫院、診所為電價凍漲行業。","提案人：王正旭　　黃秀芳　　林月琴　　蘇巧慧　　林楚茵　　李柏毅","五、","肺炎於近10年均位居我國十大死因之前5位，其中肺炎鏈球菌是肺炎常見致病菌，據2022年衛生福利部死因統計，65歲以上長者因肺炎死亡隨年齡增加而上升，另我國2019年至2023年5年累計侵襲性肺炎鏈球菌感染症（Invasive Pneumococcal Disease, IPD）確定病例共1,358人，其中65歲以上民眾占42.4%，可見IPD對於長者健康影響甚鉅。為保障長者健康，政府自2008年起即開始提供長者公費接種23價肺炎鏈球菌多醣體疫苗（PPV23），並於2023年進一步升級公費接種政策，新增提供13價結合型肺炎鏈球菌疫苗（PCV13），完整接種為一劑PCV13及一劑PPV23，兩劑間隔至少一年，若高風險對象可縮短間隔至少八周，以增加免疫保護力，然而新政策上路後，目前65歲以上完成第一劑PCV13全國平均接種率未達25%，已完整接種者更未達15%，接種率不高，其中住宿式長照機構評鑑雖有將公費疫苗接種率列入評鑑計算，但具體指標內並未將肺炎鏈球菌疫苗納入項目。衛生福利部應積極宣傳肺炎鏈球菌防護之重要性，並研議將肺炎鏈球菌疫苗納入住宿式長照機構納入評鑑標準，以使防疫政策更加周延。","提案人：王正旭　　林月琴　　黃秀芳　　蘇巧慧　　李柏毅　　林楚茵","六、","為提供急症病人適當的居家醫療照護，提供住院替代服務，避免因急性問題住院，促使醫療資源有效應用，衛生福利部於2024年7月１日啟動「在宅急症照護試辦計畫」，截至8月，收案院所數71家，照護個案255人，整體平均照護天數約5.4天，其中肺炎6.2天，尿路及軟組織感染約5天，接受照護個案近九成可以治療完成無須再轉急診或住院，顯見計畫已有效達成住院替代服務使醫療資源有效應用之目的；然而，該計畫依賴居家護理師到宅提供服務，並預期未來計畫擴大，護理需求亦持續擴大，但居家護理師給付卻十年來並未調整，特別在假日期間，願意提供服務之居家護理師人力更少，綜上，建請貴部支持在宅急症照護試辦計畫有關每日護理費假日加成，並於全民健康保險醫療服務給付項目及支付標準共同擬訂會議提案並尋求支持推動，以利在宅急症照護之業務推動。","提案人：王正旭　　林月琴　　黃秀芳　　蘇巧慧　　李柏毅　　林楚茵"],["主席：現在逐案處理。","針對第1案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：同意。"],["主席：各位委員有沒有意見？"],["陳委員菁徽：同意，謝謝。"],["主席：通過。","處理第2案。"],["吳署長昭軍：針對第2案，謝謝委員的關心，是不是可以修改幾個文字？就是「具體之實施規劃」前面的字刪除，改成「具體實施規劃之書面評估報告」？"],["陳委員菁徽：「書面報告」就好。"],["吳署長昭軍：「書面報告」？OK。"],["陳委員菁徽：「書面報告」可以，同意，「書面報告」就好。"],["吳署長昭軍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：對於修正後文字，大家有沒有意見？（無）好。","處理第3案。"],["吳署長昭軍：照案辦理。"],["邱部長泰源：遵照辦理。"],["主席：第3案照案辦理。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：處理第4案。"],["邱部長泰源：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，第4案通過。","處理第5案。"],["邱部長泰源：遵照辦理。"],["主席：沒問題啦！衛環委員會的提案都很專業啦！","處理最後一案第6案。"],["陳副署長亮妤：遵照辦理，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：遵照辦理。"],["主席：陳菁徽委員不能走欸！你要來幫我代理主席欸！","第6案通過。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：臨時提案已經全部處理完畢。","接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:11:13","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:42:05+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155316","委員名稱":"林憶君","duration":673,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:30:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a26f4049f515b9b6a6947fb22ff9043c662b050408041dece95396898a9710f355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":1.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.82659375,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.827843750000003,"end":39.704093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.19346875,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.11284375,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.84221875,"end":47.955968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.955968750000004,"end":48.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.12471875,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.69409375,"end":50.774093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.07659375,"end":61.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.063468750000006,"end":62.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.53596875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.94659375,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.44846875,"end":100.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.03659375000001,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.12909375000001,"end":102.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.12721875,"end":164.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.95034375,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.32534375,"end":172.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.57784375,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.76721875,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.99846875,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.56721875000002,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.78909375,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.13534375,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.02971875,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.24721875,"end":273.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.18221875,"end":314.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.99659375000005,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.45221875000004,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.53659375,"end":301.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.47971875,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.93034375,"end":324.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.13221875,"end":324.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.28409375,"end":324.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.300968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我們的松原別管因為受到疫情跟地震的影響 颱風的影響我們統計到今年的8月份它的遊客數衰退65%所以廠商經營不下去了那經營不下去是我們在休園期間事實上我們跟廠商達成協議就是裡面的設施包括我們的珍貴的松樹他都要負責維管了我們農場又派人去花蓮分廠派人去維管"},{"start":301.902,"end":323.24,"text":"目前為止我們在10月7號的時候也重新招標出去的這裡面很大的一個議題我們跟廠商的合作意向就是要尊貴老松樹的照顧所以請委員放心所以你們已經找到新的營運團隊10月要進駐松原別館了是不是對 現在在整修大概明年的1月就開始營運了"},{"start":324.404,"end":331.046,"text":"所以已經找到了希望可以活化花東這些的資源所以希望能夠幫助花東觀光產業我接下來首先要恭喜北榮還有中榮還有高榮三家醫學中心都獲選2025年全球的智慧醫院的排名我現在繼續關心詢問的就是有關花東地區有三家臺北榮總的分院"},{"start":352.971,"end":362.714,"text":"預理鳳林還有臺東三個分院那主委我想請教一下就是對於花東地區的民眾常常反映有關醫師資源的醫療量能不足的問題那請問退伍會及臺北榮總還有對於輔導及資源花東三院目前有沒有什麼進展還是有沒有什麼成果呢跟委員報告花東三院主要是北榮負責的那麼臺北榮總資源花東三院"},{"start":379.099,"end":407.828,"text":"一百一十二年他三個月分別是十三然後到了一百一十三年之後他變成八十一所以他資源的量是擴充的那他的整次也是從八十八到一百三十四顯著的增加那目前現職的人數是玉女鳳林他是各兩位但是資源的人數玉女增加到三十四位之多所以相關的一些經濟的措施因為北紅院長今天剛好又來我請他跟您做詳細的報告"},{"start":409.729,"end":434.25,"text":"報告的召委,我們有三個分院在那裡,其實我從花蓮出來,我在花蓮待過下鄉兩年,有特殊的情感,所以他們的狀況我非常的清楚,我一直在鼓勵醫院優秀的同仁盡量到花東去,照顧他們健康,不過因為受0403的地震,0725的凱敏颱風的確受到一些影響,不過現在已經派了一個很棒的副院長過去,"},{"start":435.111,"end":435.592,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":455.132,"end":463.556,"text":"因為現在也知道常常就是零四零三地震之後那個交通都斷了所以東部的醫療還有東部的職員這些真的是需要那個退伍會來重視的還有根據我的了解外服佈置111年有一個原住民及離島地區的醫事人員公費生養成的計劃是111年到115年原本規劃"},{"start":478.322,"end":495.516,"text":"未來5年每年有3名的醫學系的公費生後來考量因為金門縣的未來的醫療照顧人力的需求所以在他第5期的計畫中在增加10名金門縣的醫學系的公費醫生培育的名額那我想要請教主委"},{"start":495.856,"end":501.46,"text":"就是我們花蓮、臺東這地區雖然不是離島啦但是也是屬於原住民的地區偏遠的地區那今年都歷經了0403然後又凱米風災然後再加上最近的山陀火風災全部這樣幾乎路都斷了造成花蓮對外的交通幾乎中斷都快變成孤島了請問一下在你們退伍會的榮總體系下尤其是臺北榮總在花東地區還有玉鳳"},{"start":523.657,"end":542.294,"text":"臺三分院長期面臨的醫師人員的不足根據內政部今年的2月第6週的統計通報各縣市原住民的人口以花蓮有9.3萬人最多表示我們花蓮地區原住民的人數那麼多那你們要如何主動努力有沒有什麼作為呢"},{"start":543.735,"end":563.576,"text":"有沒有什麼計劃還是你們是不是要向行政院和衛福部爭取推動由臺北榮總訓練增加培育公費的醫生到花東服務的名額因為這樣我們可以推動花東醫生的在地化而且以充實花東地區的基層及偏鄉地區的醫師人力"},{"start":568.121,"end":589.415,"text":"報告委員在地深耕是最重要的事情那其實金門醫療也是臺北榮總在負責那現在金寶生的成效已經出來現在金寶生回去回鄉服務的人變多了所以資源變少了金寶生他為了作用所以剛才森委員也提出這個問題我們就大膽的向衛福部會提出請求"},{"start":589.795,"end":617.101,"text":"如果能花寶生、冬寶生這個是可以長期培養更多的公廢生我本身也是公廢生這個對花冬會有很大的幫助短暫的資源、滾水那個是沒有辦法去生根那我們如果可以有生根的計畫這個是對我們花冬會有很大的注意所以我們會朝這條路也跟衛福部來溝通朝這條路來幫助花冬的我們的病人"},{"start":617.421,"end":642.22,"text":"好那這樣的話可能就要朝這個方向去努力因為之前有來辦公室報告過也是說現在交通的方面就是有時候路就斷了本來是要去支援的醫生本來準備要去的還是已經去的一天又要回來他根本沒有辦法回來所以我當初也是有建議說那是不是支援醫生要說在那邊就是三個月呢還是一個月呢還是因為大部分的醫病關係都是"},{"start":643.081,"end":643.201,"text":"謝謝各位謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:30:52 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11:42:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155316","gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時30分）謝謝主席，有請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：召委好。"],["林委員憶君：主委好。剛剛我看到業務報告中第19頁提到，退輔會自110年開始有一個欣欣向榮計畫，負責培育有意從事農業的退除役官兵。請問主委，30個人結訓，13個人從農，這是從110年度到現在的統計，或是今年度的統計呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：目前是新增加至41個人，其中有將近20人從農，這是從110年試辦的資料。"],["林委員憶君：所以是從110年到現在就對了？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["林委員憶君：如果三年內只有這樣的退除役官兵開始務農，這個數字是不是還有很大的努力空間？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們盡量去輔導、去宣導。"],["林委員憶君：希望退輔會訓練退除役官兵從事農業方面還是需要更費心、更努力。","接下要請教主委，在退輔會旗下的農場土地面積非常廣大，到目前為止你們清查出有多少土地是閒置的狀況？"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長。其實我們現在農場的土地沒有閒置的狀況，委外經營的大概有二千多公頃，其他現在沒有委外經營的土地，除了自營以外都是公共設施用地、機關用地或是很多排水溝渠。"],["林委員憶君：現在都沒有閒置的狀況？"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["林委員憶君：你們修訂所屬農場管理經營辦法第三條，加入了退輔會所屬農場經營的綠電條款，等於是退輔會的農場可以處分或利用閒置土地，無異是開了一扇大門。這個光電開發的利益其實就很龐大，我們都知道過去幾年光電開發其實是弊案連連，有的連農地都拿來種電，甚至是在生態濕地上面蓋太陽能板。我想要請教主委，退輔會現在對於農場的土地開發有沒有什麼防弊措施呢？還是要如何確保你們修這個法不會讓退輔會在未來也牽扯到這些弊案呢？"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，首先我們在三高山農場是不種電的，剛剛黃仁委員詢問時，我們也是這樣答復。事實上，也不會在三高山農場種電，因為它們是國內非常重要的觀光資源。目前為止，我們是在彰化農場種電，大概有17公頃、16處地方。這些地方都是溝渠、曬場、垃圾掩埋場的上方或屋頂，全都是以低度利用的土地來種電。防弊的部分，我們不允許我們的委營戶直接參與種電，這是最主要的防弊措施，因為我們擔心會是假委營真種電的方式。如果要申請委營我們的農場，那麼我們絕對不會允許將農場拿來種電，而且每個案子都是由我們會裡親自審查，這點請委員放心。"],["林委員憶君：退輔會有沒有辦法在契約中要求業者僱用一定比例的退除役官兵？這樣是不是可以增加退除役官兵就業的機會？我覺得對於這種事情應該是要努力，而且是要努力達成，因為這是要保障退除役官兵的工作權，而且退輔會應該要利用手上這個籌碼，盡量幫忙退除役官兵爭取待遇比較好的工作，主委，你覺得是嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：應該的，不管是農場或事業單位，我們都鼓勵退除役官兵就業，這也是我們安置的最重要目的之一。"],["林委員憶君：我想再請教主委一個問題，也是本席與花蓮地區環保團體及護樹團體都非常關心的問題。在花蓮由臺東農場管理的松園別館是委外經營，目前因為觀光景氣熄燈，導致園內日治時期存活至今的老榕樹、老松樹現況令人擔憂，地方的民眾紛紛向本席陳情反映，萬一未來松園別館停止營業，園內那些珍貴老松樹的維護問題令人擔心，請問退輔會有沒有什麼樣的維護計畫？"],["楊處長長政：委員好。我們的松園別館因為受到疫情、地震及颱風的影響，根據到今年8月份為止的統計，遊客數已經衰退65%，所以廠商經營不下去了。事實上，在休園期間我們已經與廠商達成協議，裡面的設施、包含珍貴的松樹，廠商都要負責維管，而且我們的花蓮分場也有派人去維管。到目前為止，我們在10月7日也重新招標出去，其中一個很大的議題，我們與廠商的合作意向就是珍貴老松樹的照顧，所以請委員放心。"],["林委員憶君：所以你們已經找到新的營運團隊在10月進駐松園別館，是不是？"],["楊處長長政：對，目前正在整修，明年1月就會開始營運了。"],["林委員憶君：已經找到了？"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["林委員憶君：好，希望退輔會可以活化花東的這些資源，能夠幫助花東的觀光產業。","接下來要先恭喜北榮、中榮及高榮三家醫學中心獲選2025年全球智慧醫院的排名，而我現在要繼續關心詢問的是花東地區三家臺北榮總的分院，分別是玉里、鳳林及臺東三個分院。主委，花東地區民眾常常反映關於醫師資源及醫療量能不足的問題，請問退輔會、臺北榮總，對於輔導及支援花東三院，目前有沒有什麼進展？或是有沒有什麼成果？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，花東三院主要是由北榮負責，那麼臺北榮總支援花東三院的部分，112年3個月分別是13，到了113年就變成81，所以它的支援能量是擴充的，而且它的診次也是從88到134，顯著地增加。目前現職的人數是玉里、鳳林各2位，但是支援的人數方面，玉里增加到34位之多。至於一些相關的精進措施，剛好北榮院長今天也在場，我請他向您做詳細的報告。"],["陳院長威明：報告召委，我們有三個分院在那裡，其實我是從花蓮出來的，在花蓮下鄉2年，有特殊的情感，所以我對他們的狀況非常清楚，也一直鼓勵醫院優秀的同仁盡量到花東去照顧民眾的健康，不過因為0403的地震及0725的凱米颱風，的確是受到了一些影響，但是現在已經派了一位很棒的副院長過去，他是榮總很重要的一個人才，在他過去之後就很快地將智慧醫療導入、視訊導入，馬上就能見效；另外，骨科也派人過去，腎臟科也派人去臺東分院。所以我們會繼續努力，絕對不會中止，請委員放心，我們會將這件事情放在心上。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為在0403的地震之後交通都斷了，所以東部的醫療及東部的資源真的是需要退輔會的重視。","根據我的了解，衛福部在111年有一個原住民及離島地區的醫事人員公費醫生養成計畫，這個計畫是從111年到115年，原本規劃未來五年，每年有3名醫學系公費生，後來考量到金門縣未來醫療照護人力的需求，所以在第五期的計畫中再增加10名金門縣醫學系的公費醫生培育名額。我想要請問主委，花蓮臺東地區雖然不是離島，但也是屬於原住民的地區、偏遠的地區，今年又歷經了0403的地震及凱米風災，再加上最近的山陀兒風災，幾乎路都斷了，造成花蓮對外的交通幾乎中斷，都快變成孤島了。請問在你們退輔會的榮總體系下，尤其臺北榮總在花東地區還有玉鳳臺三分院也長期面臨到醫師人員的不足。根據內政部今年2月第六周的統計通報，各縣市原住民的人口以花蓮的9.3萬人最多，表示我們花蓮原住民地區的人數有那麼多，你們要如何主動努力？有沒有什麼作為呢？有沒有什麼計畫呢？還是你們要不要向行政院和衛福部爭取推動由臺北榮總訓練，增加培育公費醫生到花東服務的名額？這樣我們就可以推動花東醫生的在地化，而且充實花東地區基層及偏鄉地區的醫師人力。"],["陳院長威明：報告委員，在地生根是最重要的事情，其實金門醫療也是臺北榮總負責，現在金保生的成效已經出來，金保生回鄉服務的人數變多，所以資源變少了，因為金保生發揮了作用。剛剛沈委員也提出了這個問題，我們就大膽地向衛福部提出請求，如果能有花保生、東保生，如此就能長期培養更多的公費生，像我本身也是公費生，這個對花東會有很大的幫助。短暫的資源無法生根，如果我們可以有生根的計畫，對於花東會有很大的助益，所以我們會朝這條路與衛福部溝通，朝這條路幫助花東的病人。"],["林委員憶君：這樣可能就要朝這個方向去努力。之前你們來辦公室報告時也是說因為交通的路有時候就斷了，原本準備要去支援的醫生或是已經去了預計一天要回來的醫生，根本就沒辦法回來，所以當初我也建議支援醫生是不是就待在那邊3個月或1個月呢？大部分的醫病關係都是病人去看了這個醫生的診之後，可能一個禮拜後或幾天後又想再去，但是去了之後找不到這個醫生，這樣對醫院會有一點不信任感。因此，還是要請臺北榮總研議看看怎麼樣做會比較好，而且對於花東榮民及人民的需要，我相信退輔會都知道，而且一定會努力做到。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝召委。"],["陳院長威明：謝謝召委。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：接下來請羅智強委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:05:19","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:39:56+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155315","委員名稱":"王定宇","duration":319,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:34:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600ad0f248dc87b6a0a44cc4e7309f7945e562b050408041dece2f3f07a615f4351a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.01721875,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.72596875,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.286593750000002,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.99909375,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.289718750000002,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.53409375,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.84909375000001,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.89346875000001,"end":130.45784375}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supplier（亦即可靠的供應者），也攸關歐美盟友的關切，你看美國總統大選，他們有沒有談到這個？當他們在管制晶片的時候，雖然可能是一個謬誤的訊息，他們卻認為是臺灣把晶片流向不可靠的對手，所以當美國提出晶片法案，管制荷蘭的光刻機及日本的設備和化材以後，我第一個要請教主委的是，我們臺灣第二波的核心關鍵技術項目什麼時候會出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在已經在請各部會提出清單當中，國科會自己也已經有列出一個增加的清單。"],["王委員定宇：我有幫你去問，經濟部產業技術司已經發文給你們，提列了第二波有關電池、晶片技術、晶片製程等，你們有收到文了嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，有。"],["王委員定宇：數發部好像還沒有提報，目前我看到的，我自己去一個一個部會詢問，數發部提報了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：數發部今年並沒有新的項目。"],["王委員定宇：它沒有提報嘛！那你們現在還在等哪些部會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：農業部溝通了嗎？"],["王委員定宇：來，儘速。"],["蔡處長妙慈：目前我們還在溝通當中。"],["王委員定宇：你們的大限是12月4日嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["蔡處長妙慈：原則上我們一年一定會開一次，所以我們目標就是12月底，我們會把審議會開完。"],["王委員定宇：12月底喔？"],["蔡處長妙慈：12月之前。"],["吳主任委員誠文：年底前，今年一定會把審議會開了。"],["王委員定宇：我們當時規定的是每一個年度要公布，review一次，所以你們是以年度來算是今年底？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["王委員定宇：我是以你們上次公告時間12月5日來算，算出是12月4號。沒關係，我可以給你多一點時間。那今年底你們要review出來的重點，現在有沒有方向？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在有方向。第一，剛剛委員有特別提醒，我們跟我們的重要友邦及友好國家，特別是美國，我訪問了美國、訪問了德國，其實也都提到這個議題，我們會特別跟他們有一致性的看法。"],["王委員定宇：你現在講的是一個很重大的事情喔！一致性的看法意思就是美國晶片法案所禁止的事項，臺灣會列進去。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然還要衡量我們的產業。"],["王委員定宇：因為包含了服務、包含了資金，包含技術，包含了components，全部都是有列管的喔。"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會主要是負責技術的部分，當技術部分應用到產業的時候，經濟部會把那些條件加進來。"],["王委員定宇：因為這一件事情是保持我們國家的競爭優勢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["王委員定宇：牽涉到我們在供應鏈裡面的可信賴程度，重要的是，它不僅是國家安全，不僅是敏感科技，它更是我們拼經濟非常重要的一個基礎。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我個人是贊成跟主要盟友國家，荷蘭也管制ASML，日本最近才公布管制他們的機器設備，我們可以有一致性的標準，這在經濟上對我們的好處、對國家安全上的好處，你們可以明列清楚，讓我們國家的國人、企業界能夠瞭解，因為它主要的主力可能會來自於某一些仰賴中國市場的企業界，所以說明說服的工作可能主委這邊要加強。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員提醒，因為我們的市場、我們的產業經營的方向也要逐漸地去做一些轉移，所以跟美國的合作會加強。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員質詢。官員請回座。","我們接著繼續質詢，請鍾佳濱委員質詢，時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:08:59","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:38:14+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155314","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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東其實你們可以相關的交通部也在鼓勵各位相關的會議現在這個"},{"start":294.326,"end":294.486,"text":"好,非常感謝。"},{"start":323.936,"end":336.134,"text":"好接下來這個有關這個農業部的報告裡面有提到這個農民退休儲金上次我也提到怎麼樣去加強"},{"start":337.421,"end":354.057,"text":"原住民的部分你們也願意去加強去先導農民退休除菌因為原住民的這個退休申請提交的只有5.7%這個比例是相對的非常低這個部分這個要請"},{"start":355.538,"end":355.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":386.118,"end":407.092,"text":"最後的這個部分這個有關最近114年度的總預算之所以在立法院在這期委員會停留在那邊就是因為原住民的進法補償"},{"start":410.082,"end":436.124,"text":"2001年英國的生態經濟學博士提爾斯說一個岩石林的碳匯價值一公頃是2000美金這個是2001年說的2000美金就差不多6萬塊台幣6萬多了6萬多了台幣現在已經20幾年了所以但不止所以這個部分我們在這個"},{"start":438.951,"end":461.212,"text":"碳費的,前幾天環境部估算每年一季將有60億元的碳費收入當然本來不止啦,但是他們這次壓得很低啦,只有60億而這些經費本來我們原住民的立委,我本席也想替這個"},{"start":462.993,"end":486.663,"text":"原民會本來應該是農業部要編的一算 森林法院是你們的主管機關我本來想說其他的像燙廢也可以投入在這個部分 但是很可惜本席在上一屆提出條文修正的時候沒有通過"},{"start":487.935,"end":510.126,"text":"未來會再修氣候因應變遷法的相關法案也請農業部到時候要去跟環境部協調說明而確實是整個森林原住民就是守護這個森林"},{"start":513.404,"end":513.424,"text":"謝謝鄭天財"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:29:15 - 11:38:14","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155314","gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時29分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。針對花蓮因為0403地震，加上凱米颱風，再加上不斷地餘震，造成道路，不論是蘇花公路還是北迴鐵路都一再地不通，所以為了災後的振興，農業部7月1日推出250元的花蓮農產品優惠券，當時的規劃是這樣，整個經費是1.83億，預計7月1日發行。當然隨著相關的災情，加上最近的颱風，對整個交通也造成了很大的影響，請教一下部長，目前實施的狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，0403以後，我們為了振興花蓮的這些農產品能夠順利地吸引外地人來買，我們規劃的農粉券預計是70萬張，到目前為止，已使用了44萬張左右，所以這個部分的執行率大概六成到七成。因為0403以後交通又陸續地中斷過，所以我們也考慮把農粉券的日期，特別是第二類的，從電商平臺那邊去購買花蓮產品的部分，能夠延到大概11月或12月，我們會視情況而定。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：已經辦了。"],["陳部長駿季：我們大概有八、九十個人，然後我們也鼓勵我們所屬單位的相關會議，特別是主管會報的時候，趁這個機會拉到花蓮去辦，這個我們會落實。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，非常感謝。","接下來，有關農業部的報告裡面提到農民退休儲金，上次我也提到怎麼樣去加強原住民的部分，你們也願意去加強宣導農民退休儲金，因為原住民申請提繳的只有5.7%，這個比例相對是非常低的，這個部分要請農業部能夠持續地去……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，上次委員質詢過以後，我們就跟原民會這邊去討論，把它相關的資料跟我們這個做勾稽，我們未來會透過改良場這邊，因為我們改良場有一個原民的專門計畫去鼓勵，特別是年輕人如果願意在原民部落去從事農業的時候，他更應該去參加農民儲金，我們會用更大的力量去做宣導。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最後，有關最近114年度的總預算之所以會停留在立法院的程序委員會，就是因為原住民的禁伐補償，2001年英國的生態經濟學博士皮爾斯說，一個原始林的碳匯價值1公頃是2,000美金，這個是2001年說的喔！2,000美金差不多是6萬元臺幣，六萬多的臺幣，現在已經二十幾年了，所以它不只啦！","前幾天環境部估算每年預計將有60億元的碳費收入，當然本來不只，但是他們這一次壓得很低，只有60億。而這些經費，本來我們原住民的立委，本席也想替原民會爭取，本來應該是農業部要編的預算，你們是森林法的主管機關。"],["陳部長駿季：這是兩件不一樣的事情。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在是原民會編嘛！我本來想說碳費也可以投入在這個部分，但是很可惜，本席在上一屆提出條文修正的時候沒有通過。未來會再修氣候變遷因應法相關的法案，也請農業部到時候能夠去跟環境部協調，能夠去說明，整個森林確實就是原住民在守護，怎麼樣能夠把整個國家的政策，尤其是碳費也能夠投入到這個部分，就可以減少很多公務預算的相關支出，這個我們一起努力，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們再來看看用什麼方法，整個森林如果是在造林的部分、在撫育的部分，我想農業部都能夠來協助。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員非常精準有效率的質詢，部長請回座。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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主委 這個數據 這數據你瞭解吧 你知道吧我瞭解你瞭解嘛 它代表什麼意義我問一下 國科會現在你在制定高齡政策 是在1970年的思維還是用2040年的思維"},{"start":124.076,"end":148.762,"text":"當然我們是要往未來去看已經在眼前那不是未來但是未來會更嚴重那也很嚴重那你看一下這一個人口問題這麼嚴重那你們當作一個科學家裡面談了半天文獎完全幾乎沒有在處理這個問題"},{"start":149.662,"end":170.575,"text":"我們所有科技的發展是為了全年齡層所以一定會包含壯士代那特別為了高齡像這個圖高齡的部分我們的確也有計畫在執行我看了啊我看你們的業務報告啊你除了跟10年前的這些醫療照顧之外我沒有看到任何新東西啊"},{"start":171.636,"end":187.224,"text":"但是我們不會只照顧特定的年齡層啦不是這個叫什麼特定不是這個特定這個特定你看過2010年上面佔百分之百分之三十六十五歲以上的人佔百分之三十叫特定這個叫特定嗎?我們健康台灣的計畫會特別為了這個"},{"start":195.823,"end":205.605,"text":"我講你就是活在1970年所謂特定就是1970年65歲上占人口2.9%這叫特定2040年是30.1%這叫特定嗎我們有相關的計畫高齡科技產業行動三分之一的人口在你的計畫書裡面我們的科技政策幾乎是付之缺乳"},{"start":225.97,"end":239.558,"text":"但是我們所有的一些科技...那這個假如說我們不會...我覺得你講這個話就讓我非常寒心不是,我們所有科技研發的計畫一定最後都會把它應用到這個年齡層,一定會有的啦一定有,但是沒有專門來應付"},{"start":242.339,"end":242.499,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":265.427,"end":281.211,"text":"沒有在使用網路這個是國科會的資料裡面有一個什麼叫做平台裡面沒有使用網路的250萬人一半的人沒有在使用那有在使用的另外250萬人當中在使用政府服務的數為87.5萬"},{"start":284.992,"end":306.118,"text":"那基本上大概就是400萬吧百分之八十沒有在使用政府沒有做這些的對這些人沒有在扶持嘛扶持的非常少嘛這個是一個事實這是你們自己的數據"},{"start":308.963,"end":332.676,"text":"我現在講的國客會對壯世代對高齡者你也不要聽說壯世代高齡者的人設不能只是長照你現在裡面提的就這個已經講的就是繞著醫院團團轉這樣子這個提到了這不是高齡者這個叫做撫養筆這個溝通已經溝通很多次了壓垮下一代"},{"start":333.576,"end":334.137,"text":"吳春城委員會主席"},{"start":353.002,"end":375.177,"text":"這個是引發全面性的問題 這不是特定族群的問題整個內閣要一起行動起來 每一個部會都要有每一個部會都要把高齡者納入主要的政策 我們現在都把它當作邊陲政策預算都除了衛福部之外 預算都未達1%"},{"start":376.929,"end":394.219,"text":"在各部會當中但是我也提到了壯世代支應了我們的預算的55%我們的稅基整個政府的預算是壯世代供應55%但是各部會提供的服務不到1%還認為說他是特定族群"},{"start":398.064,"end":414.521,"text":"聯合國建了一個主題叫做不要遺落任何人所有的科學家競領排在所有的都在高喊轉型正義都是不要遺落任何人而我們的國科會遺落了占三分之一人口的壯世代"},{"start":415.595,"end":439.574,"text":"沒有遺落沒有遺落我可以跟委員報告我在那個BTC會議結論的時候講得很清楚因為國會是以科技研發為主我們現在要把科技產業的實力讓他來怎麼樣去結合我們包含醫療的產業照護的產業都能夠讓他可以協助到不是進到醫院去的人而是一般的這個"},{"start":441.015,"end":443.617,"text":"臺灣未來30年最重要的問題就是人口問題 高齡化 少子化 這問題科學家不去面對它 不去解決它的話"},{"start":468.897,"end":470.958,"text":"我看這一期當中你有針對特定不同族群有提出你們的科技計畫"},{"start":495.894,"end":497.901,"text":"那是不是也可以提狀態的科技計畫可以嗎"},{"start":501.244,"end":522.038,"text":"對高齡者我們會再加強不管你要叫什麼可不可以提出一個他們高齡者的科技計畫是因為如果你從這個角度去想你就可以想到很多可以做的事情我們可以加強我們現在已經有計畫就是高齡科技產業行動計畫這個計畫我們未來會逐步把它擴大所以後續我會去再詢問追蹤這個事情好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":530.185,"end":532.852,"text":"謝謝吳春城委員關於請回座那我們接下來繼續進行"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:25:34 - 11:34:27","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155313","gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時25分）好，有請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委備詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳委員好。"],["吳委員春城：主委好。就跟剛才葉元之委員一樣，我也是覺得好像溝通了很多次，國科會聞風不動，我也仔細地拜讀你們的業務報告，所有的觀念都沒有改變，完全置之不理。我還想，在這個業務報告當中沒有看到高齡研究、沒有看到我們所溝通的相關報告，而且你也說所有的溝通，你們都有在做，我在看裡面有關高齡的研究，跟十年前的東西完全都沒變，都還是一路的只有健康醫療。主委，國科會應該都是科學家吧？應該是科學家吧，對不對？國科會都是科學家。科學家依據的是什麼？政治考量、經濟考量還是事實考量？應該根據數據吧？主委，這個數據你瞭解吧？你知道吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我瞭解。"],["吳委員春城：你瞭解嘛，它代表什麼意義？我問一下，國科會現在制訂高齡政策是在1970年的思維，還是用2040年的思維？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然我們是要往未來去看。"],["吳委員春城：已經在眼前，那不是未來呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對啊，但是未來會更嚴重嘛，這個政策……"],["吳委員春城：哪有很嚴重？那你看一下啊，你看一下這一個人口問題這麼嚴重，那你們當科學家裡面談了半天，完全沒有在處理這個問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們所有科技的發展是為了全年齡層。"],["吳委員春城：全年齡層嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以一定會包含壯世代，而且為了高齡，像這個圖，高齡的部分我們的確也有計畫在執行。"],["吳委員春城：我看你們的業務報告，除了十年前的這些醫療照護之外，我沒有看到任何新東西啊。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我們不會只照顧特定的年齡層。"],["吳委員春城：這個叫什麼特定？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科技研發……"],["吳委員春城：不是。這個特定，你看2040年，上面65歲以上的人占30%，這個叫特定嗎？三分之一的人口叫特定嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們健康臺灣的計畫會特別為了這個……"],["吳委員春城：沒有……"],["吳主任委員誠文：高齡者……"],["吳委員春城：我跟你講，你就是活在1970年，所謂特定就是1970年65歲以上占人口2.9%，這叫特定。2040年是30.1%，這叫特定嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有相關的計畫，高齡科技產業行動。"],["吳委員春城：三分之一的人口，在你的計畫書裡面，我們的科技政策幾乎是付之闕如。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我們所有的一些科技計畫……"],["吳委員春城：那這個叫做說我們不會？我覺得你講這種話，就讓我非常寒心。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們所有的科技研發計畫，一定最後都會把它應用到這個年齡，一定會有的啦。"],["吳委員春城：一定有，但是沒有專門的來應付……"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有特別這樣……"],["吳委員春城：什麼東西都是全民的，我有看到每一個都是有一個特定目的、特定目標的服務。"],["吳主任委員誠文：應用的部分就是顯現在健康臺灣的……"],["吳委員春城：基本上，高齡者65歲以上的現在有500萬人，這500萬人當中，沒有在使用網路，這個是國科會的資料，你們有一個平台，裡面提到沒有使用網路的有250萬人，一半的人沒有在使用，那有在使用的另外250萬人當中，有在使用數位政府服務的有87.5萬，那基本上大概就是有400萬的人，約占80%沒有在使用，政府沒有在扶持這些人，扶持得非常少嘛。好，這個是一個事實，這是你們自己的數據，那我今天也講了，國科會對壯世代、高齡者的人設不能只是長照，裡面提的，這個已經講了，就是繞著醫院團團轉，這個也提到了，這不是高齡者，這個叫做扶養比，這個已經溝通很多次了，壓垮下一代，上面大量高齡化的人，我們要拉下來，成為一個壯世代、成為一個社會的基礎，才能夠解決下一代的問題，你不解決他們的問題，下一代也沒希望了，所以這個是全面性的問題，這不是特定族群的問題，整個內閣要一起行動起來，每一個部會都要有，每一個部會都要把高齡者納入主要的政策，我們現在都把它當作邊陲政策。看一下、看一下，預算都不大，除了衛福部之外，預算都未達1%，在各部會當中，但是我也提到了，壯世代支應了我們預算的55%，我們的稅基、整個政府的預算是壯世代供應55%，但是各部會提供的服務不到1%，還認為他們是特定族群。聯合國今年有個主題叫做「不要遺落任何人」，所有的科學家都在談淨零排碳，所有的都在高喊轉型正義，都說不要遺落任何人，而我們的國科會遺落了占三分之一人口的壯世代。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有遺落啦。"],["吳委員春城：沒有遺落？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我可以跟委員報告，我在那個BTC會議結論的時候講得很清楚，因為國科會是以科技研發為主，我們現在要思考怎麼樣把科技產業的實力結合包含醫療的產業、照護的產業，讓它都可以協助到，不是進到醫院去的人，而是一般的應用服務，我們都可以協助。"],["吳委員春城：但是我覺得你們對這部分的論述，比如說，你們提到女力科技，當你們專注到一個議題的時候，你們就規劃很多的事項，應該做的事情很多，那我也想請科學家們，這個是三分之一人口的問題，臺灣未來30年最重要的問題就是人口問題，高齡化、少子化，這個問題科學家不去面對它，不去解決它的話，對臺灣就是一場災難。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我們瞭解啦！所以賴總統才會有提健康臺灣這個議題出來。"],["吳委員春城：所以，其實我還是要再三表示，主委也提到了要重視這個問題嘛，就是壯世代的科技平權，我看這一期當中，你有針對特定不同族群，提出你們的科技計畫，那是不是也可以提出壯世代的科技計畫？可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對高齡者，我們會再加強這方面的承諾。"],["吳委員春城：好，可以。不管你要叫什麼，可不可以提出一個關於高齡者的科技計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員春城：因為如果你從這個角度去想，你就可以想到很多可以做的事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。我們可以加強我們現在已經有的計畫，就是高齡科技產業行動計畫，這個計畫我們未來會逐步把它擴大。"],["吳委員春城：所以後續我會再詢問、追蹤這個事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，好。謝謝委員。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳春城委員。官員請回座。","我們接下來繼續進行質詢，請王定宇委員質詢。今天外委會的質詢時間是4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:11:18","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:32:05+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155312","委員名稱":"王正旭","duration":678,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:20:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600ac3d97d51aef0f5a520a63eef073e7d6162b050408041dece720c962c4268ac435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.27971875,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.544718750000001,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.10846875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.96471875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.457843750000002,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.63471875,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.140343750000003,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.48159375,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.52346875,"end":34.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.21534375,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.58409375,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.39409375,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.90159375000002,"end":163.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.84909375,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.02846875,"end":178.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.70346875,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.26784375000003,"end":196.3040937500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︎"},{"start":133.37,"end":152.312,"text":" ︎"},{"start":153.212,"end":161.963,"text":"這些流產量其實我們知道事實上很多可能是有所遺漏或者是有一些不完整的地方所以針對這部分將來"},{"start":164.892,"end":184.144,"text":"包括主管機關在衛福部這邊有沒有一些對策可以讓我們針對於人工流產的部分可以有更完整、更周全的這個統計的資料?或者是有什麼方法可以來改善目前的困境?我想謝謝委員。委員對於現在面臨少子化的一個社會"},{"start":185.385,"end":201.766,"text":"那尤其對於非預期懷孕的婦女也常常關懷啦齁。如果啦,看我衛福部準備來協助來減少幾度,還比這個都是相當重要的事情齁。那剛剛委員所提的我們事情,吳市長,來。"},{"start":204.082,"end":221.685,"text":"為什麼未來會針對這些數字去做一個更精進的分析那我們會跟健保一起來合作那因為過去的調查是採用面黃的方式那其實它的準確度後來評估它的使用上也有一些疑慮的地方所以很多專家建議我們說"},{"start":222.466,"end":238.046,"text":" ︎"},{"start":238.246,"end":258.18,"text":"是,所以除了跟健保合作以外,同時我會建議可不可以跟專家學者或相關的這些學會們一起來研擬,可以讓這樣的數據可以更精確。因為我們也很期待說,如果有比較精確的數據以後,我們可以針對這些施行人工流產的這些民眾,"},{"start":259.121,"end":277.671,"text":" ︎"},{"start":277.731,"end":279.232,"text":"所以我們很期待有這個更好的一些方式來解決"},{"start":306.764,"end":323.54,"text":"那我們也了解說德國他們曾經針對想要做人工流產的這些民眾提供一個諮詢或者是一個思考期讓他們再重新去確定他的意願以後他們得到一個很好的一個成果就是可以讓這個民眾"},{"start":325.342,"end":352.745,"text":"他就不會去做了這個人工流產或者是認真終止這樣的做法所以未來我們很期待在思考及或是人工流產諮詢的部分看這邊有沒有好的一些政策可以來加強我想我們目前也有跟我們醫療照護團隊還有婦產科醫學會共同製作了人工流產的諮詢的指引手冊給大家做參考那我們未來會加強做先導"},{"start":354.022,"end":366.653,"text":"是,好,我想如果把整個生育養育的環境在像現在這樣的努力持續下去,我想有一些,第一個原因這個發現,因為這個大概比較沒辦法,因為"},{"start":370.38,"end":371.821,"text":"我相信今天早上有委員請教過部長這個問題"},{"start":398.849,"end":415.212,"text":"是那這個整個決策過程大家也覺得非常的納悶為什麼會一開始的時候會有一些相關的行業是不動長就是動長後來又做一些調整那這部分未來"},{"start":417.008,"end":417.929,"text":" Thank you."},{"start":436.612,"end":453.299,"text":"電價費利的審議會,他要考慮的百工百業,當然不可能所有的業者都進來,所以他們當然有一些原則我們也尊重,但是一公布出來的話,如果有些行業覺得說"},{"start":455.147,"end":481.653,"text":"對他們來講是不合理的我想也行政院也接受到反應我這個還是要感謝行政院長他了解到我們醫療院所的確是照顧人民第一線我想不只醫療院所有很多很多的行業都必須要我們給他關心那這個部分特別是在行政院長也體認到這樣的一個"},{"start":484.135,"end":496.554,"text":"民意來保護我們醫療院所保護我們人民的健康我想這個部分我們有專家的會議然後接受大家的意見創造出一個比較圓滿的一個結局"},{"start":498.317,"end":520.799,"text":"那在這邊也特別感謝我們防生系委員、防護委員在這個地方也都一直給予關心跟幫忙。謝謝。好,期待我們每一年都能夠有好的策略把它完成這樣的這個目標。那再過來就是有關你指控內膜癌防治的部分。那剛剛前經候委員也非常的用心的在討論如何能夠讓"},{"start":521.8,"end":540.725,"text":" ︎1"},{"start":540.725,"end":559.48,"text":"﹚"},{"start":559.48,"end":576.783,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":577.023,"end":605.484,"text":"因為民眾如果知道對於這個癌症帶來的影響或者是針對一些症狀能夠提早去了解的話相信民眾對自己健康也要負一些責任那我們很期待民眾教育會透過跟教育部這邊做一些相關的加強的合作包括兩個部會之間事實上有衛教委員會那很期待可以讓這個衛教委員會可以發揮它的作用那這部分也麻煩部長再能夠多加考量"},{"start":607.406,"end":622.014,"text":"好,我們會配合,那我想那個王委員特別長期畢生共生體癌症治療跟關懷,那怎麼樣讓他更有效率,有時候篩檢是一個,問題是誰去做篩檢?"},{"start":626.036,"end":640.183,"text":"隨時讓民眾有意願這個我們要建立一個醫療體系那比如說你如果假設你都有一個管理你的健康的家庭醫師他對你全家大大小小都知道何時要做哪一種檢查"},{"start":641.423,"end":642.143,"text":"好,非常謝謝部長。"},{"start":673.639,"end":674.985,"text":"謝謝 許委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:20:47 - 11:32:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155312","gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時20分）謝謝主席。還是麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：邱部長好。今天有幾個問題向您請教，包括今天的主題之一，就是少子化之下臺灣的一些政策或者在人工流產部分有哪些我們可以更了解、更多元的地方。我們可以了解，其實過去一段時間一直都有相關統計告訴國人，在臺灣懷孕的女性、婦女們，在整個過程裡面如果需要做人工流產的話，曾經有哪些問題存在。其實，每四年都有一項訊息報告，可是最後一次調查時間是在2016年、第十二次衛福部國健署家庭與生育調查報告，也就是到了2016年以後就沒有繼續執行。至於沒有繼續執行的原因我們去了解，後來才知道是回歸內政部作相關數據統計。可是我們也去了解內政部他們到底報告了什麼，他們報告的是關於當年度有多少新生兒人口數，至於之前的相關數據，像是懷孕或人工流產的數據其實沒有包括在這個項次裡面。就這個情況，我們覺得如果相關統計出了問題，在未來擬定少子化對策方面，就很難找到比較具體的方法，或根據具體原因做一些對策上的改善或協助。","我們現在也了解，目前人工流產相關統計有兩大來源，一個就是健保署針對特約醫事機構的生產與流產統計，是從民眾接受健保署服務過程裡所得到的資料。另外一部分就是食藥署，他們會去以人工流產藥物使用─基本上就是以RU486的使用量推估我國目前的人工流產量。不過對於這些人工流產量，我們知道事實上可能很多有所遺漏，或者有一些不完整的地方，針對這部分，主管機關衛福部這邊將來有沒有一些對策，對於人工流產部分可以有更完整、更周全的統計資料，或者有什麼方法可以改善目前的困境？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，委員對於現在面臨的少子化社會問題，尤其對於非預期懷孕的婦女也常常關懷，並探討衛福部怎麼協助減少其墮胎比例，這些都是相當重要的事情。至於剛剛委員所提的問題，我請吳署長說明。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們未來會針對這些數字做更精進的分析，並且與健保署一起合作。由於過去調查是採用面訪方式，其實在準確度以及後來評估使用上有一些疑慮的地方，很多專家建議我們，這種做生育調查的家庭式面訪方式要改變，所以我們才會在105年停止這樣的調查規範，後續會跟健保署合作，讓這份統計數字能夠更精準。"],["王委員正旭：是。除了跟健保署合作以外，我同時建議跟專家學者或相關學會一起研擬，讓這樣的數據可以更精確，因為我們也很期待，有比較精確的數據以後，可以針對這些施行人工流產的民眾到底在擔心什麼、他們為什麼會執行人工流產而無法讓也許好不容易懷孕的胎兒順利保存下來加以了解，讓臺灣的少子化問題得到好的解決。這邊也有一項數據告訴我們，其實有將近四分之一民眾是因為擔心造成經濟負擔而選擇人工流產，雖然這個樣本數非常少，不過相信這也是一種可能狀況。就這部分，如果能夠了解得更澈底的話，那針對經濟負擔因素，國家、包括行政院可能會有更好的對策就這部分做因應，所以我們很期待有更好的方式解決。","我們也了解，德國曾經針對想要做人工流產的民眾提供諮詢或思考期，讓他們重新確定意願以後，得到很好的成果，就是可以讓該民眾不會採取人工流產或妊娠中止這樣的作法，所以我們也很期待未來在思考期或人工流產諮詢部分看看有沒有好的政策可以加強。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們目前也跟醫療照護團隊、婦產科醫學會共同製作了人工流產諮詢指引手冊給大家作參考，未來會加強作宣導。"],["王委員正旭：好。"],["邱部長泰源：我想，如果要就整個生育、養育環境像現在這樣持續努力下去，對於第一種原因─發現胎兒有問題，大概比較沒辦法，因為比較偏向醫療上的問題。至於其他作法，應該都有助於減少人工流產的機會。"],["王委員正旭：是，我相信原因若能夠分析得愈澈底，我們能夠做的事情或提出的對策就愈有效。","我再請教一下有關醫院電價凍漲的過程，相信今天早上也有委員請教過部長這個問題。對於整個決策過程，大家也覺得非常地納悶，為什麼一開始會有一些相關行業凍漲，後來有作一些調整？在這部分，未來的處理模式比起今年會不會有所更動？我們很期待，每一年如果有相關議題，邱部長這邊可以先做哪一些內部協調過程呢？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。因為電價費率審議會要考慮的是百工百業啦！不可能把所有業者都納進來，所以當然有一些原則，我們也尊重。但是一公布出來，有些行業覺得對他們來講是不合理的，我想行政院也接收到反映了。對於這點，我還是要感謝行政院長啦！他了解到醫療院所的確是照顧人民的第一線。我想不只醫療院所啦！還有很多、很多行業，都需要我們給予關心，而行政院長特別體認到這樣的民意，也就是保護醫療院所、保護人民的健康。在這部分，我們由專家會議接受大家的意見，創造了比較圓滿的結局。"],["王委員正旭：是。"],["邱部長泰源：我在這邊也特別感謝王正旭委員，王委員在這個方面也都一直給予關心跟幫忙，謝謝！"],["王委員正旭：好，期待每一年都有好的策略完成這樣的目標。","再過來是關於子宮內膜癌防治的部分。剛剛陳菁徽委員也非常用心地討論目前婦女，尤其是達到一定年紀以後婦女子宮內膜的癌症如何能夠確定，並且在有症狀的時候或者對高風險群及早檢查，包括超音波、包括子宮鏡，都是可能可以執行的工具或方式。至於到底要不要做全民或廣泛式的篩檢，當然有賴健康署這邊再做謹慎的評估。像以前肺癌防治篩檢的經驗也各訴我們，臺灣相關作法對於全球其實可以有好的貢獻，所以未來針對子宮內膜癌篩檢，在評估篩檢模型的同時，我們也希望能夠儘量落實宣導，因為民眾要知道癌症帶來的影響，或者對於一些症狀提早了解，對於自己的健康也要負一些責任。我們也很期待在民眾教育上可以跟教育部作一些相關的加強合作，兩個部會之間事實上有衛教委員會，我很期待這個衛教委員會可以發揮它的作用，這部分也麻煩部長多加考量。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會配合。王委員長期、畢生貢獻於癌症治療跟關懷。關於怎麼樣更有效率，有時候篩檢是一種方式，問題是誰去篩檢、誰去讓民眾有意願？我們要建立一個醫療體系，譬如說民眾都有管理健康的家庭醫師，對於全家大大小小都知道何時要做哪一種檢查，這樣才能真的落實。我們現在對健康臺灣提出很多加強篩檢項目，如何因應未來因為環境變遷導致新生、增生的癌症也都可以由家庭醫師團隊為民眾規劃，我相信這些做法都能夠比較早期發現癌症，讓民眾得到最好的治療。"],["王委員正旭：好，非常謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。","接續請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏","王正旭","黃秀芳","李坤城","楊曜","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","洪申翰","黃捷","吳春城","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","林宜瑾","羅智強","張雅琳","涂權吉","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩","林倩綺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":257,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「我國人工生殖法制化作業進度」、「衛生福利部落實中央政府我國少子\n女化對策計畫之成效與未來規劃」及「衛生福利部本月因疏於督導地方評估特殊需求兒少利益所\n受監察院糾正之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:08:54","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:30:36+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155311","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","duration":534,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:21:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600a3dda50fc3a72ab296947fb22ff9043c662b050408041dece3111ea93ed5935be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":4.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.26659375,"end":4.283468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.03784375,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.20221875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.239718750000002,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.778468750000002,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.33909375,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.570968750000002,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"S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謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:20:25 - 11:28:48","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155310","gazette":{"lineno":697,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時20分）謝謝主席，請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：召委好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，第一個問題請教你，我們要怎麼樣優化對天然災害補助的政策？目前山陀兒颱風的農損大概有四億多，目前統計起來農損大概四億多。"],["陳部長駿季：對，那是速報的結果。"],["邱委員志偉：好，速報的結果。當然包括行政院，包括我們地方縣市首長都希望能夠用現金救助，沒有錯嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：但是按照現行的規定，同曆年，一年可以申請一次現金補助，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：在同一個產期，長期作物的話……"],["邱委員志偉：同一個曆年是怎麼算？同一個曆年是一年還是……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我舉一個例子，蔬菜差不多21天，一個月一次，他下次再種的話，如果遇到天災就可以來領，就是同一個產期。"],["邱委員志偉：蔬菜產期大概是20……"],["陳部長駿季：大概一個月啦！平均。"],["邱委員志偉：一個月。好，假設……"],["陳部長駿季：短期葉菜類差不多一個月。"],["邱委員志偉：意思就是不受同曆年的限制？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：受產期的限制？"],["陳部長駿季：只有長期作物現在是……"],["邱委員志偉：比方，這次的颱風跟上次凱米相隔大概兩個月農作物同樣受到重創，這種狀況之下，他能夠請領兩次現金補助嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：他如果是種短期葉菜類，是可以的。"],["邱委員志偉：除了短期葉菜類，還有哪些？"],["陳部長駿季：長期作物的，大家特別關心的是長期的果樹部分。"],["邱委員志偉：譬如說香蕉呢？"],["陳部長駿季：香蕉就不行。"],["邱委員志偉：但是它四季都有生產啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是它遇到了以後，當初我們天然災害救助的設計是它受損的時候那一整年，以它生產成本裡面的20%左右去補。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這應該從優從寬認定，包括香蕉、番石榴、蜜棗、木瓜、蓮霧，基本上目前都是全年可以生產，不過它有盛產期，所以如果按照這種極端氣候發生，極端氣候大概是風災，風災大概是每年4月也許到11月，這半年的時間，是不是可以放寬現金補助的標準？"],["陳部長駿季：我們正在研議，大原則是我們可以開放跨年，以前是曆年，可以跨年但是還是會維持一個產期。我舉一個例子，荔枝好了，荔枝6、7月結了以後……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，荔枝有特定的產季嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個產季過了以後……"],["邱委員志偉：比如，它有全年生產的，全年生產的水果類也很多，全年都是產季的水果也不少，如果同時碰到兩次、三次的風災，現在按照規定只能領一次。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得你們要從農民的角度去考慮，他們投入很多的生產成本，是不是能夠把整個補助制度放寬到兩次、三次？"],["陳部長駿季：委員的建議我們會記錄下來，針對特定的，它是一年四季都生產的部分，看要怎麼去處理啦！因為每一次受天災……"],["邱委員志偉：好，我希望是不是一個月之內提出一個比較明確的方案，檢討現今的補助標準和次數，讓所有農民都能夠瞭解？我覺得應該要從優，一個原則從優，從優從寬認定。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會儘快，因為我們現在一併在處理那個金額的提高，所以我們會儘快。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我還有兩分半。農業時間電價新制緩衝期是今年底到期，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：今年底到期，有沒有相關的配套措施？"],["陳部長駿季：相關的水電費應該是由政府來……"],["邱委員志偉：今年底到期之後，大概有幾萬戶？農業用電戶大概1萬戶喔！"],["陳部長駿季：1萬戶左右。"],["邱委員志偉：其中包括很多養殖漁業。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個部分，我覺得農漁業用電都凍漲，如果這個緩衝期結束，你會用到新的時間電價新制，這會變成是變相的漲電價，所以這部分是不是請農業部跟經濟部再去協調一下？"],["陳部長駿季：不管電價有沒有浮動，有沒有夏季或是什麼的，我們對農業用電部分有一個優惠，有一個價差的補貼，會編到我們的公務預算。"],["邱委員志偉：所以即便是這個緩衝期年底屆期，還是不會受到電價波動影響？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，我們明年編列了24億預算，就是處理萬一……"],["邱委員志偉：我說結論啦！你今年年底到期，在電價新制緩衝期之後，他用新的電價機制，他會不會增加成本？"],["陳部長駿季：他所增加的成本由農業部編預算來吸收。"],["邱委員志偉：所以不會增加額外的成本，是這樣子嗎？要說清楚耶！"],["陳部長駿季：就是價差我們會來吸收。"],["邱委員志偉：價差由農業部來吸收。"],["陳部長駿季：我們來吸收，對。"],["邱委員志偉：好，第三個問題是糧食自給率，糧食自給率的部分，你看拜登也曾經簽署「強化糧食與農業安全及韌性」國家安全備忘錄，這就是國家安全一個重要的政策，對不對？我們糧食安全的自給率目前還是偏低，所以目前你應該有一個推動小組，最起碼跟日本、韓國來看齊，我們現在糧食自給率是多少？只有33.5%，對不對？沒有錯吧？日本可以到……"],["陳部長駿季：應該是30.7%，然後今年度可能變成30.4%。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣跟韓國、日本還差得很遠，日本、韓國是41%、45%，你要有短中長期的目標，怎麼樣能夠把糧食自給率提高，這點很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：我們設有短中長期目標，也跟委員說明，我們現在糧食自給率被拉下來，最主要是飼料用的玉米和大豆大概96%都是進口的，相對的，我們主要的稻米超過百分之百，水產也超過百分之百。"],["邱委員志偉：特殊的農產品我們是沒有問題，但是你要從全盤的概念來看，我覺得整體的糧食自給率還有提高的空間，你們是不是一段時間要提出糧食安全白皮書？包括要怎麼做，你的目標值多少。"],["陳部長駿季：好，跟委員說明，我們可以每一年度的時候發表整個糧食安全的數據，數據是最基本的，還有就是我們年度的推動作為，我想我們可以公布。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你們要年度，還要設定目標。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：第四個問題就是農業保險的效能，農業保險除了強制性的保險之外，我們從109年完成立法之後，投保件數開始上升，一直到今年又下降，所以它整體的覆蓋率還不高，覆蓋率如果扣除強制性保險只有17.3%，特別是農作物跟漁產的覆蓋率相對比較偏低，我們怎麼樣去加強農業保險的效能，然後增加投保率，增加投保意願，這點很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，這個部分我也注意到，而且我們也要求農金署這邊重新檢討農業保險有一些保險率一直非常低的，就我們所瞭解，本身的這些理賠價格不符合農民的預期，保費的部分雖然有補助，可是理賠的價格……"],["邱委員志偉：誘因看看是不是還可以加強。"],["陳部長駿季：我們用什麼樣的誘因再去刺激。"],["邱委員志偉：有誘因才有意願嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：你們整個產品的設計也要符合他們的需求。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：這點很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：有一部分是屬於商業保險的部分，我們會再跟商業保險公司來談。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，農業扛綠能的責任是多少？要達到多少目標？"],["陳部長駿季：農業，20GW。"],["邱委員志偉：蛤？"],["陳部長駿季：綠能就是20GW。"],["邱委員志偉：20嘛！目前達成率是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：目前達成率大概……"],["邱委員志偉：9嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是3.74GW，已經併網。"],["邱委員志偉：哇！這樣3.74……"],["陳部長駿季：我們農業部負責的大概是9GW。"],["邱委員志偉：是啦！你要去檢討為什麼達成率會那麼低，問題出在哪裡？時間的關係，我當召委要很準時，我要以身作則，所以達成率為什麼會偏低的原因請農業部提交書面資料給我，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝召委，分毫不差以身作則，精準的質詢。"],["主席（邱委員志偉）：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來質詢請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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問一下這個是哪一個處負責的"},{"start":486.089,"end":497.243,"text":"我們科國處的處長才剛上任所以以後你們就只要換一個主委換一個部長做事就可以重蹈覆轍可以這樣嗎不是我答應你主委你這樣講話我聽不下去啦"},{"start":498.26,"end":527.007,"text":"那麼多博士生大家都有經濟壓力想要拿那個獎學金你們說要激勵大家要免除大家的經濟壓力結果你的政策反而讓大家在網路上罵聲一片奉勸其他人不要讀博士生然後你講話還前後矛盾說我要免除研究計畫但是後面又有研究計畫這到底是什麼演張啊你會不會降低國科會的公信力這是我們執行的問題所以這一點我們會幫他改善過怎麼改善"},{"start":528.29,"end":553.202,"text":"就是把它去掉啊不是只有這個問題而已我剛剛講了三個問題第一個你有宣傳嗎宣傳不利宣傳不利那要怎麼宣傳你現在時間來得及剛剛委員提到的包含在臉書國科的這個網站等等都不夠啦但是學校主委你會讓人家以為說好像跟你們國科認識的人才來申請一般人都不曉得嘛"},{"start":553.982,"end":570.247,"text":"那委員建議什麼低卡嗎?不是你第一個你要分階段來弄這個名額嘛否則的話你這個到了10月底沒有申請的人以後就沒有機會了嘛你要分階段如果我今天是5月我看了簡章我才想要報名的人然後我有經濟壓力的我就沒辦法來申請了啊"},{"start":571.247,"end":598.077,"text":"這部分原來是因為行政院通過的方案裡面就已經定時了那我會改我會改希望未來你講因為你現在檢証還沒有因為你知道10月31號你跟我講怎麼補救這一次沒有辦法沒有補救那如果他是明年3月還想要報名的一樣的問題啊他就沒有辦法來申請了啊我們有發配給學校的除了那400個是國會申請之外我們給學校有600個名額"},{"start":599.656,"end":621.187,"text":"我沒有解決我剛剛講的問題,所以我覺得針對問題回答啦,因為你也是學者啦,我們就針對問題回答。但是我們給學校的是學校可以制定辦法。那我現在講的是這400個名額好不好,卓偉。可是你要廢掉這400個嗎?沒有廢掉啊。如果你編的預算有這400個名額,我們就要把這個做到好嘛,不是有做就好,要做到好嘛。我們會把它做好啦。怎麼做?"},{"start":622.179,"end":640.334,"text":"阿就是把那個因為因為我們照理站起來了我想諸位你應該也是第一次聽到這麼荒謬的計畫你可能需要一點時間消化你什麼時候來我們我們辦公室來說明一下這個計畫因為這個是講博士生很關心人不要開玩笑這是教育的東西耶什麼時候可以改啊我們要改啊好"},{"start":646.356,"end":646.717,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:14:09 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11:25:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155309","gazette":{"lineno":679,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時14分）主席好。麻煩請國科會主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：吳主委好。上個會期、那個時候還是前一個主委，我就非常關心國科會博士生獎學金的問題，當時我有提出3個問題，前主委也承諾會改善，但是我們的辦公室每隔一段時間就會接到博士生的陳情電話，看得出來國科會完全都沒有想要改變的意思，我今天就來就教一下，到底國科會是怎麼回事？","我先前情回顧一下，上個會期就曾經提到，因為你們有提出一個400個名額的獎學金嘛！主要是激勵型的，希望讓那些還沒有決定要讀博士班的學生，不要因為經濟的問題而卻步，所以大概是補助3年，一個月補助4萬元，鼓勵他們在免除經濟壓力的情況之下來報考博士班。","它有3個問題，第一個問題是，你們的申請時間以去年來講是在9月15日到10月16日，只有一個月的申請時間，而且是在10月16日截止，換言之，如果他是在11月想要讀博士班，甚至於等到很多大學的博士班招生簡章出來之後，他看了簡章覺得不錯想要報考，但是他也有經濟的壓力，他就沒有辦法得到國科會這樣的協助，也讓國科會這個政策喪失了美意。","第二件事情是宣傳完全不足，因為很多人根本不知道這個計畫，不好意思！我在跟主委詢答，可以不要干擾主委嗎？主席，你剛剛不是才講過，時間暫停一下，好不好？"],["主席：時間暫停一下，我想大家想要協助主委，不過真的要尊重一下質詢的委員，好不好？"],["葉委員元之：不然等一下我問什麼，主委不知道，以前就發生過這個狀況。"],["主席：主委注意一下好不好？各位同仁，拜託大家不要心急。"],["葉委員元之：然後第二個問題就是宣傳不足，很多人根本不知道這個計畫，等到知道之後已經來不及了，導致好像只有巷子內的人知道這個計畫。第三個是在學學生被排除，因為他之前不曉得這個計畫，到了學校之後發現有這個計畫，結果他卻不能申請，因為他已經入學了，所以很多人又再去考一次博士班，取得新生資格來申請這個計畫。上個會期我就已經提到這3個問題，結果這幾個月我們還是不斷的接到博士生的陳情在講同樣一件事，這3個問題完全沒有改善。","第一，主委，你們這次申請的時間一樣是在今年的10月1日到10月31日，還是只有一個月的時間。換言之，等到10月31日截止之後，想要讀博士班，但是有經濟壓力的研究生就沒有辦法來申請了，如果他是2月、3月看到博士生簡章後想要報考，他就沒有辦法可以來申請。","第二，宣傳一樣不足，連一場記者會都沒有召開，我剛剛還去google，我怕誤會你們，我還去google國科會博士班獎學金，結果一則新聞都沒有，就是有關你們現在在宣傳的這個計畫，一則新聞都沒有。我剛剛還去看你們的臉書，你們的臉書也完全沒有宣傳，所以我不知道你們這是辦給誰的？是辦給國科會的子弟嗎？還是只有辦給認識國科會的人？上個會期你們跟我們說會加強跟學校連絡，我去問了相關的狀況，但很多學校的老師和學生還是不知道這個計畫啊！所以你到底是宣傳給誰？","再來是在學生一樣被排除，上個會期前主委承諾要改善的，每一件事情都沒有改善。然後，再來我們來看一下你們最新的簡章，我覺得這個簡章也是很奇怪，我剛剛也有講過，你們的申請時間是到10月31日，下一頁，然後要送什麼件呢？以去年來講，除了申請表之外，還有研究計畫書和其他審查資料，今年是把研究計畫書去掉，只有申請書跟其他審查資料。我先問一下主委，今年為什麼要把研究計畫書取消？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是要讓更多學生更容易申請。"],["葉委員元之：但是你沒有宣傳啊！好，所以你的意思是說，把研究計畫書拿掉是降低它的門檻，讓學生在準備的時候……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為委員有提到他一入學就要申請，他可能還沒有研究計畫。"],["葉委員元之：不是一入學就要申請，是如果明年2月才看到簡章想要報名的人已經來不及了嘛！因為你們今年10月31日就截止了，所以你會造成90%的遺珠之憾，這是我上個會期一直在提醒的，結果你們說要改善，但是你們也沒有改正，下一頁。","主委，你看一下，這也是你們的簡章，113年因為你有要求他要提出研究計畫，所以你有一個研究計畫的評分、占30%，然後研究計畫對國家未來發展重要性占10%。右邊是你們最新的簡章，主委，請你看一下簡章，右邊、114年度，我劃線的部分有沒有研究計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個還是有啊！"],["葉委員元之：有沒有研究計畫？有沒有研究計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還是有。"],["葉委員元之：還是有研究計畫，占幾分？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：40。"],["葉委員元之：40分。好，我們看上一頁，右邊你的簡章裡面要人家交的資料裡面，有沒有研究計畫？沒有。"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在併在申請書裡面。"],["葉委員元之：所以很荒謬嘛。你在前面的簡章沒有叫人家交研究計畫，下一頁研究計畫占了40%的分數，那如果你是申請人，主委，你是申請人，你到底是要交研究計畫還是不要交研究計畫？而且主委，你剛剛自己講的喔，為什麼免除研究計畫？是因為要讓大家的申請門檻降低，結果實際上你剛剛講的東西完全打臉你之前說的話嘛。我只舉一個缺失，其實這個缺失滿嚴重的，因為你會讓申請的人無所適從啊。你就知道說，你們在辦理這個研究計畫，辦理這個獎學金，辦得多麼的隨便，所以我為什麼非常生氣？因為很多學生是不買單的嘛。我們來看一下這個，除了有很多人跟我陳情之外，網路上也都很容易看到人家抱怨你這個獎學金，像左邊那個是一個成功大學學生在Dcard發文，你看我們框起來的部分，他說，他有打電話給國科會的人去問這個獎學金的事情，結果你們國科會的人跟他講說：「唉呀！獎學金這麼多，也不是只有國科會啊，你就提早規劃，不會喔！」學生說，那個國科會的人讓他感覺是「不差你這一個啦，反正我們只要把預算消化完就好了，有沒有達到政策目的沒有差啦」。然後你看框出來的部分，他說感覺雖然立委質詢過，可是國科會就是不重視，而且沒有想要真正地培養非常優秀的研究生。然後右邊是國立清華大學的一個學生在Dcard的發文，他也講，他一直在研究國科會的這個研究計畫，結果名額很少，看了半天，原來是當屆博一才能申請，他也搞不清楚你們的計畫，所以他的署名是什麼呢？「一路打工兼差苦撐到現在快畢業的一個學生，奉勸大家讀博士班要三思」。你們這個計畫已經讓學生在網路上批評成這樣，叫大家不要讀博士班。我就問啊，這個東西有符合你們政策的目標嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們要改。"],["葉委員元之：你上個會期就說要改啊。請問一下，這個是哪一個處負責的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們科國處的處長才剛上任。"],["葉委員元之：所以以後你們就只要換一個主委，換一個部長，做事就可以重蹈覆轍，可以這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我答應你……"],["葉委員元之：主委，你這樣講話，我聽不下去啦！那麼多博士生，大家都有經濟壓力，想要拿那個獎學金，你們說要激勵大家，要免除大家的經濟壓力，結果你的政策反而讓大家在網路上罵聲一片，奉勸其他人不要讀博士生，然後你講話還前後矛盾，說要免除研究計畫，但是這個後面又有研究計畫，這到底是什麼簡章啊？你會不會降低國科會的公信力？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是我們執行的問題啦。所以這一點我們會把它改善。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼改善？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是把它去掉啊。"],["葉委員元之：不是只有這個問題而已，我剛剛講的三個問題，第一個，你有宣傳嗎？你們有宣傳嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：宣傳不力，宣傳不力。"],["葉委員元之：那要怎麼宣傳？現在時間還來得及。"],["吳主任委員誠文：剛剛委員提到的，包含在臉書、國科會的網站等等……"],["葉委員元之：都不夠啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是學校……"],["葉委員元之：主委，你會讓人家以為說，好像跟你們國科會認識的人才能來申請，一般人都不曉得嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那委員建議什麼？Dcard嗎？還是……"],["葉委員元之：第一個，你要分階段來弄這個名額嘛，否則的話，到了10月底沒有申請的人，以後就沒有機會了嘛，你要分階段。如果今天是5月，看了簡章才想要報名的人，又有經濟壓力的，就沒辦法來申請了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分原來是因為行政院通過的方案裡面就已經定死了，那我會改，我會改，希望未來……"],["葉委員元之：你跟我講你怎麼補救？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一次沒有辦法。"],["葉委員元之：沒有補救，那如果是明年3月才想要報名的人，一樣的問題，他就沒有辦法來申請了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有發配給學校的，除了那400個是國科會甄選之外，我們給學校的有600個名額。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有解決我剛剛講的問題？主委，針對問題回答，因為你也是學者，就針對問題回答。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我們給學校的是學校可以自訂辦法。"],["葉委員元之：我現在講的是這400個名額，好不好？主委。難道你要廢掉400個嗎？如果你編的預算有這400個名額，我們就要把這個做到好嘛，不是有做就好，要做到好嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會把它做好啦。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是把那個……"],["葉委員元之：因為我們召委站起來了，我想主委，你應該也是第一次聽到這麼荒謬的計畫，你可能需要一點時間消化，你什麼時候來我們辦公室來說明一下這個計畫？因為這個是博士生很關心的，你不要開玩笑，這是教育的東西耶。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們要改啊，3個月可以嗎？"],["葉委員元之：3個月？什麼3個月？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，今年已經來不及了。"],["葉委員元之：不是，上個會期就提醒你們了嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是啊，但我們今年……"],["葉委員元之：不行啦！主委，兩個禮拜你先來講怎麼修正，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好好好好。"],["葉委員元之：好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞代）：好，謝謝葉元之委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:12:33","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:21:24+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155308","委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謝謝因為我們是希望說這樣子的分場可以盡快開始來營運不要放在那邊當成是蚊子館而且我還是在強調大埔鄉包含這個水庫周遭的這個風景它其實是非常優美的它確實是有潛力成為重要的這個景區那越快越好好不好這個部分再麻煩你那最後"},{"start":551.156,"end":576.506,"text":"剛才我們其實幾位委員有提到那主委我們這次報告裡面有提到說提供軍民轉場結合AI運用功能我想請教一下現在具體有哪一些難以解決的問題或瓶頸用傳統方法無法有效解決需要用AI技術來去克服的傳統方法跟委員報告因為他比較沒辦法跟民借解軍中的專長跟民間借解"},{"start":577.647,"end":606.286,"text":"這個系統主要就是讓我們軍中的專長能夠很順利的跟民間的這些職場所謂的職位借鑒所以我們在這系統剛剛有報告除了軍中的專長要輸進去然後勞動部所有的職位要輸進去還有所有的職業的百科全部都輸進去這三大部分都在這裡面然後就做個分析就對接將來出來之後能夠有一個滿意的一個需求都是有一個滿意的答案"},{"start":606.786,"end":609.107,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":627.429,"end":633.811,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":649.71,"end":660.574,"text":"其實我這個主席可不可以再20秒再補充一個這個昨天你有沒有聽過DEFDefense Entrepreneur Forum就是國防創業論壇"},{"start":663.843,"end":686.251,"text":"這是一個在美國一個在推行的一個論壇那是由軍方人員跟退役人員還有科技界創業界的人共同來組成的一個論壇那這個論壇沒有任何的強制性就是等於是他們從民間主動去發起的那我們一直提到這件事情的原因是他其實跟退福會有關聯其實很多軍人退休"},{"start":687.031,"end":687.071,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":706.732,"end":706.812,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":737.473,"end":737.593,"text":"謝謝委員指導"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:08:51 - 11:21:24","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155308","gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時8分）請主委。"],["主席：有請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。剛才王定宇委員有特別提到關於護佐的相關議題，其實這跟醫療都有相關，最近我們常常提到一些民間團體針對重大災變或者是面臨緊急應變的時候，都在講說要怎麼樣去做基本的防護、包含急救等等，我是希望榮民總醫院跟其他相關由退輔會所轄管的，能夠做這樣的準備，就是特別把相關的儲備藥品、輸液，或者包含抗生素等重大災害所必須要應對的這些儲備量，必須要因應情勢來做調整。有的時候在和平的期間，當然不需要做這樣的事情，但是我們希望有跨部會的平臺，如果國安機關有得到一些情資，代表有可能會有重大的事變，我們必須要提早做準備的時候，這些重要藥物的儲備、調配，必須要把它提高。"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，在衛福部主導的所謂的動員計畫，我們退輔會也是一環，我們是動員計畫裡面的一個團體、單位，這裡面包含剛剛委員所講的藥物、醫事人力、病床、設施、急救，全部都有相關的規劃，這是屬於動員規劃這一塊，都有。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，以軍事上面來講，衛福部可能沒有你們這麼專業，所以其實這個敏感度還是需要由國防部、退輔會、國安局等等，必須有一個更完善的機制，我只是因為王定宇委員特別提到這個部分，我認為平時就要做好一些準備。"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，這邊有25項藥品和70項衛材，整個三大榮總臺北、臺中、高雄增加的儲備量是2萬5,000人份，這是平常，按照我剛剛跟委員報告的動員準備計畫裡面就已經做好、儲備好的。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，謝謝主委，我還是再強調，因為近期有提到生理食鹽水等這些輸液的缺貨狀況，所以我們都必須要做好準備的原因，我還是要再提醒，其實除了市場機制之外，因為在比較緊急的狀況之下就不符合市場機制，我們變成要做非常應變，所以有一些相關的部分，我們還是希望趕快準備，不過這不是我今天主要要講的，我是聽到王定宇委員提到，我認為這是必須要再強調一次的。","請教主委，退輔會在各縣市都有設置榮服處，秉持著榮民在哪裡、服務就到哪裡的服務理念，一共有19個榮服處，但是有3個縣市沒有在地的榮服機構，主委，你知道是哪3個縣市嗎？"],["曹處長東發：只有馬祖沒有榮服處，馬祖是歸基隆榮服處來管理。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。特別是新竹、連江和我們的嘉義縣，因為嘉義縣的業務是由嘉義市的榮服處負責，不會因為沒有在地榮服處而缺少退輔會的服務，畢竟縣市其實是一體的，儘管在縣的部分沒有直接的榮服處。但是我還是必須從人數來看，從榮民的人數來看，我們嘉義縣的人數大概有四千多人，跟宜蘭、雲林差不多，跟南投、臺東五千多人也相距不遠，可是如果是嘉義縣再加上嘉義市的話，就有七千五百多位榮民朋友，都由同一個榮民服務處提供服務。如果嘉義縣榮民有業務要處理就要跑到嘉義市，這樣的車程可能會花一些榮民朋友半天以上的時間，特別如果是在山區的話。不僅僅是在嘉義縣市，幾個幅員遼闊的縣市也有這樣子的情況。各榮服處都有設責任區的輔導員去做這些探訪跟協助，嘉義縣市共7,500位榮民，但是只有4個責任區輔導員、11個社區輔導組長，請教主委，嘉義縣的榮民朋友受到這樣的量能，相對比起來得到的協助會不會更少，我們要怎麼樣去做一些修正或是改善？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，按照嘉義縣、嘉義市榮民人數7,500人、服務組數11組、榮欣志工142人，這個服務量能來看，跟其他相比它是比較低的，所以委員指導之後，我回去會請我們服照處怎麼樣去增加嘉義縣市地區的服務量能，不管是服務組數或是榮欣志工數，一定要能夠滿足當地榮民服務的目的。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝主委，我再強調一下，其實資源的配置因為不是無限的資源，我們本來就要做一些配置上面的考量，除了剛才主委講到的，針對嘉義縣市的配置可能做出調整之外。我還是強調，儘管現在的榮民朋友跟過去一樣，以前常常都會加一個「老」榮民，現在其實很多榮民朋友還正值中壯年，但是這一些比較需要服務的、獨居的、高年齡層的榮民，我們還是希望更加側重於訪視的部分，依照年齡層及所需要的程度來做調整，讓這一些比較年長的榮民能夠得到更加妥適的照護，這個部分也請主委來協助，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來就是針對嘉義分場的觀光活化，上個會期的業務報告，我有跟你提到彰化農場在嘉義縣有一個嘉義分場，就是在大埔鄉的曾文水庫旁、西拉雅國家風景區。這一次的業務報告裡面也有提到嘉義分場，但是嘉義分場已經停業多年了，現在要辦理招商，可是截止至9月底，還是沒有人去投標，我想請教現在嘉義分場的現狀有沒有什麼解決方案？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我請事業處跟您報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長楊長政。針對嘉義分場，其實我們一直想跟嘉義縣政府合作、西拉雅風景區合作，現在也在密切合作，因為我們本身就有碼頭，未來大埔藍色公路遊憩廊帶計畫，我們是積極參與的。我們也積極拜訪、聯繫了吳明勲鄉長，對於當地鄉民的期待，在我們招商的過程裡面，我們都有納入鄉民的意見，所以未來我們還是以觀光產業為主，朝這個方向來做。我們113年總共辦理了6次招商說明會，總共有24家的廠商來參與，但很可惜，可能有些原因讓廠商裹足不前，可能是因為觀光旅遊不振的這些因素，但是我們接下來會再檢討，檢討完畢調整我們的內容，再做一次招商的公告。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。因為9月24日到現在都沒有人投標，6次招商會、24家參加都沒有結果，這也是經過你們的回復，你們有提到是因為公司資本額高，水源保護區法令嚴格，這些都是在他們的考量範圍，所以傾向不予投標。針對公司資本額過高跟水源保護區法令的部分，你們有什麼樣的見解，你們有什麼樣的辦法去調整？"],["楊處長長政：資本額過高的部分，經過我們考量，在我們做過內部會議檢討以後，我們可以把它降低，降低以後可以增加參與人數，提高公司意願。另外一個就是開發期程，原本我們的規範是3.5年，我們稍微把開發期程延長，而且在開發期間，我們就不收它的權利金，只收地租，用這種方式來擴大廠商的投資意願。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，因為我們希望這個分場可以儘快開始營運，不要放在那邊當成是蚊子館，而且我還是再強調，大埔鄉、包含水庫周遭的風景，其實是非常優美的，它確實是有潛力成為重要的景區，越快越好，好不好？這個部分再麻煩你。"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後，剛才其實幾位委員有提到，主委這次報告裡面有提到，提供軍民專長結合AI運用功能，我想請教一下，現在具體有哪一些難以解決的問題或瓶頸，用傳統方法無法有效解決，需要用AI技術來克服的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，因為傳統方法比較沒辦法跟民介接、讓軍中的專長跟民間介接，所以這個系統主要就是讓我們軍中的專長能夠很順利跟民間這些職場做一些職業介接。我剛剛有報告，這個系統除了軍中的專長要輸進去，勞動部所有的這些職類要輸進去，還有所有的職業百科全部都要輸進去，這三大部分都在這裡面，然後去做分析、對接，這些出來之後將來的需求就能夠有一個滿意的答案。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝主委，資料庫很重要，你們必須要提供足夠的資訊，才能夠做有效的介接。我這邊看到退輔會要跟臺灣AI人工智慧學校合作，這樣子的合作我們當然是樂觀其成，但是除了我方退輔會本身的數據之外，跟民間之間怎麼樣去嫁接？比方，其實有很多跟民間人才相關的這些數據，怎麼樣跟我們做適性的配合？這必須是雙方的。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們有請勞動部來，勞動部有來。"],["陳委員冠廷：這是跨部會的平臺。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們有請勞動部來參與，還有教育部。"],["陳委員冠廷：主席，可不可以再給我20秒，我再補充一個。主委，你有沒有聽過國防創業論壇（Defense Entrepreneurs Forum；DEF），這是一個在美國推行的論壇，由軍方人員、退役人員以及科技界、創業界的人共同組成，這個論壇沒有任何的強制性，等於是由民間主動發起。我們一直提到這件事的原因是它與退輔會也有關聯，其實很多軍人退休、退伍的朋友們本身有很多專長，他們可以在退役之後發展第二春，可以從事與國防相關的、與科技相關的、與國防科技相關的事業，藉由這個論壇讓這些退役軍人能夠有機會與科技人士、創意人士、甚至是創投人士嫁接，也就是說，這個等於是一個incubator、一個孵化器，等於是製造一個讓商業能夠成長的機會，讓他們能夠有創業的機會。我相信有很多在職的軍中人員，特別是與cyber、網路安全有關，其實他的創業可能性很大，我們可以考慮一下，是不是能夠協助？不一定要同樣的名詞，類似的這些做法，多創造可能性，除了在現有的可能性之外，創造多出來的可能性，讓這些退役人士有機會參與新創、創新，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，主委請回。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:09:20","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:20:07+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155307","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","duration":560,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:10:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600adc5a0feea7d4c261b46d19fd1690e0d462b050408041dece3c62e92a3742f1c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3134687500000002,"end":2.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.66971875,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.68971875,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.18721875,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.91409375,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.744718750000004,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.92909375,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.27346875,"end":69.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.65721875,"end":70.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.32784375,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.30034375000001,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.94534375,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.54596875,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.73034375,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.51909375000001,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.17721875000001,"end":122.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.86409375000001,"end":123.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.66971875,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.10346875000002,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.13659375,"end":139.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.63784375,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.31221875,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.75409375,"end":161.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.35159375,"end":164.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.37221875,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.44346875000002,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.64534375000002,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.61096875,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.56846875000002,"end":182.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.68596875,"end":191.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.34284375000001,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":213.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.41534375,"end":239.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.97346875,"end":278.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.39284375,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.54471875,"end":282.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.83909375,"end":290.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.89284375,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.74909375000004,"end":315.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.53659375,"end":301.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.99846875000003,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.55096875000004,"end":325.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.17846875000004,"end":363.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.27971875000003,"end":325.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.08909375,"end":330.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.08409375,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.34909375,"end":340.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.93971875,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.01096875,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.22159375,"end":346.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.02471875000003,"e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如果說面積是可以確定的時候我們接下來就是會確定它的栽培期因為如果在汛期的時候有沒有它重反而會影響到整個的河道的一個水路的流動嘛然後非汛期的部分然後才會去設計它的獎勵但是我在這邊我們有在規劃"},{"start":298.989,"end":314.841,"text":"這個獎勵不會比照一般的田地啦因為基本上他沒有相關的地租嘛或者是地租非常便宜這要看水利署後續怎麼處理所以我跟委員簡單的說明就是我們會跟水利署去做一個合作然後針對怎麼樣做法會讓"},{"start":316.062,"end":323.604,"text":"我希望這件事可以快,因為我剛剛有講這一次巴掌溪就花了28億,然後要整幾乎是差不多下游段都幾乎都要整治了。所以你說在這個時間點,我們可以讓農民買好水去種,他就管理得好啊。"},{"start":341.01,"end":366.364,"text":"如果我們再拖一年,你如果知道台灣這種氣候就很難發生就發起來了,以後你等於農民說我要去租,他又要去清那些草,又陰又不見了所以我覺得很多東西就是說,這個時候剛好到時候我們就趕快處理,讓農民以後就來管理這裡,管理起來就很好,農民有收益,然後我們整個政府他在未來要處理要再清這一些"},{"start":366.664,"end":367.064,"text":"災害救助的標準"},{"start":387.432,"end":401.099,"text":"水稻來說,水稻如果是這個在幼苗的時候,它的災害的救助一分地是400元,是這種,我們知道現在農民,他要插糧,這個恆仔的身份,人工的身份都提高,一分地都已經到兩三千塊,所以這個天然災害的救助這個以400塊而言看起來,"},{"start":411.524,"end":440.288,"text":"也偏低還有上上一次來到我們東石去看那個那個楷米颱風那一次那個蚵仔順勢也很嚴重那次部長也有來那也是有去聊到說事實上針對類似這樣的蚵仔他的災害的救助6000塊也已經將近30年沒有調整了所以這樣很多的現象看起來這個天然災害的這個救助的一個標準是不是有再為檢討的一個必要"},{"start":440.848,"end":441.028,"text":"主席"},{"start":471.068,"end":494.938,"text":"向這個物價指數標高的時候我們也可以做一些調整所以未來會變成一個制度性的我認同你這樣子用制度性的來看待這件事情因為總部的每一個品項都要等到有人去關心才會被變動嘛所以因為品項很多所以你們應該定期然後有一些檢討然後去符合合理的一個災害的一個救助標準對而且我們會把這個這個"},{"start":496.138,"end":502.89,"text":"把他列到天然災害救助基金的辦法裡面去明定每一年的一月份去公告這樣的話就會"},{"start":504.608,"end":514.752,"text":"道米保險對於農民的誘因一直是拉不起來我覺得我們有必要再花個時間再來檢討一下整個道米保險的政策好不好我想道米保險的部分我們會再加強努力那其實我們道米這兩年理賠其實都蠻超額理賠大概都8點多億"},{"start":531.9,"end":532,"text":"謝謝蔡議委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:10:47 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11:20:07","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155307","gazette":{"lineno":656,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時11分）謝謝召委，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，我先前也有跟你聊過，針對轉作的獎勵，也就是綠色環境給付，綠色環境給付是基於維護臺灣的農地資源，我們也希望減少稻米的種稻，因為臺灣的稻米是產量過剩的，所以我們鼓勵農民去種雜糧作物，尤其是黃小玉，然後針對雜糧會有一個獎勵金，獎勵的對象也有包括在基期年有種稻的農地或者是有契約的甘蔗田。","我要跟部長聊的是，我們知道事實上有很多河川公地，這個河川公地沒有整理，然後會有土石流，每次颱風會有土石流嘛！土石流來，整個河川兩側就會有淤積，淤積還好，最麻煩的是那裡會長出鹿仔樹，鹿仔樹長得比一個人還要高。事實上我們過去也有在鼓勵河川地可以開放給農民來種植，我們只是限他在汛期期間不可以種，而且如果非汛期你要禁高莖作物，部長，我想這個沒有問題嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是看起來，農民要在河川公地種植的誘因是不夠的，主要的一個誘因來源就是他們並沒有剛剛講的獎勵金，沒有這樣的獎勵金。我要跟部長說，如果以這一次凱米颱風在八掌溪造成的水災，我們看到的就是疏濬的問題，我們看到的就是八掌溪兩側的雜木，這些鹿仔樹、銀合歡長得太高了，然後影響到疏濬，所以這個東西是連帶的。後來為了要解決這件事情，行政院用了28億來做加強疏濬，28億喔！這一筆錢很大。","我要跟部長講的是，如果可以跨部會來整合這件事情，我們應該跟經濟部水利署跳出來說好！我們河川公地鼓勵農民來耕作，讓農民來代為管理，然後針對這樣的河川公地也給它類似轉作的獎勵，鼓勵農民來做，農民就會把這些地管理得很好。由農民來管理，因為我們都是種非高莖作物嘛！他自然就會管理得很好，就不會再長雜草，長出我剛才說的鹿仔樹，所以部長，這部分你們可以在政策上來做一個檢討嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員對於河川公地本身的關注，我們在規劃國土計畫裡面，現在臺灣的河川公地大概有3萬公頃左右是在從事一些非汛期時候的種植，對於委員所講的，我們可以認同的一個重點就是如果農民在非汛期的時候去種植，他也代為管理這片河川土地，在這樣的精神裡面可能要考慮第一個，我們在做獎勵設計的時候，必須要有一個明確的範圍跟地號，我們後續會跟水利署講，因為現在如果開放讓他們自己種，到時候不知道它到底多少面積，所以第一個要解決的是這個面積是不是可以匡得出來。第二個部分就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這個我有請教水利署，如果農民去申請的話，他們會針對面積，然後先給他一個臨時的地號，暫時地號，所以這部分是可以解決的，只是說面積的範圍他們可能需要再跟一些相關單位把它確認起來，所以技術上是可行的。"],["陳部長駿季：如果說面積是可以確定的時候，我們接下來就是會確定它的栽培期，因為如果是在汛期的時候種，反而會影響到整個河道的水路流動。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！在汛期農民也不要。"],["陳部長駿季：對。非汛期的部分才會去設計它的獎勵，我們有在規劃，這個獎勵不會比照一般的田地，因為基本上它沒有相關的地租或者是地租非常便宜，這個要看水利署後續怎麼處理，所以我跟委員簡單地說明，我們會跟水利署去合作，針對怎麼樣的做法會讓河道不受影響，但是也能夠增加我們的糧食自給率，特別是旱作的部分，我們會朝這方面來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我是希望這件事可以快，因為我剛剛有講，這一次八掌溪就花了28億，下游段幾乎都要整治了。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果在這個時間點我們可以媒合農民讓他馬上去種，他就會管理好。如果我們再拖一年，你也知道臺灣這種氣候很容易長出雜草。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：雜草會再長出來，以後農民說我要去租，等於他又要去清那一些草，誘因又不見了，所以我是覺得很多東西在這個時候做正合適，我們就趕快來處理，以後就讓農民來管理這些地，管理起來又很好，農民有收益，然後政府未來要清這些雜草的疏濬費用又可以減少很多，我想這是一個三贏的角度，好不好？部長，我們就趕快來推動。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會儘快和水利署來做一個比較細部的協商。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。第二個，我要跟部長再聊一下我們災害救助的標準，災害救助以水稻來說，水稻如果是在幼苗的時候，它的災害救助一分地是400元，實際上我們知道現在農民要插秧，秧苗的成本還有人工的成本都提高，一分地都已經到兩、三千元，所以這一個天然災害的救助以400元而言，看起來也偏低。還有像上一次到我們東石去看，凱米颱風那一次，東石的蚵仔損失也很嚴重，那一次部長也有來。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：也是有去聊到，事實上針對蚵仔的災害救助，6,000元也已經將近30年沒有調整了，所以從很多的現象看起來，這個天然災害救助的標準是不是有再為檢討的必要？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，我個人認為這些救助標準的調整不能因為委員來爭取我們就調，我希望有一個制度化，所以我也跟我的同仁講，未來我們會在每一年的年底，甚至於年初公告。年底之前我們做一次檢討，就是定期的檢討，檢討也不只是農糧，包括魚和畜的部分，也許當年的物價或其他的波動沒有很大的時候，可能是維持，那維持也要再度地公告。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係。"],["陳部長駿季：如果物價指數飆高的時候，我們也可以做一些調整，所以未來會變成一個制度性的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，我認同你用制度性來看待這件事情，因為總不能每一個品項都要等到有人去關心它才會被變動嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為品項很多，所以你們應該定期有一些檢討，然後去符合一個合理的災害救助標準，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，而且我們會把它列到天然災害救助基金的辦法裡面，明定每一年的1月份公告，這樣的話就會讓我們同仁認為它是一定要做的，所以一定會做確實的檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。部長，還有一個就是稻米保險的部分，因為稻米保險對於農民的誘因一直拉不起來，我覺得我們有必要再花時間來檢討一下整個稻米保險的政策，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，稻米保險的部分，我們會再加強努力啦！其實我們稻米這兩年都超額理賠，大概都八點多億，所以這個部分我們會再努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：看起來是有理賠，可是問題就是很奇怪，這個對農民的誘因不見了。當時的1,350元不見了，他們就因為這件事記在心裡，所以現在就一直看不到這個保險的好處，我們政府的美意農民感受不到。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再加強宣導，我們會再做加強宣導。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個讓我們覺得好可惜，好遺憾。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員非常令人感動的質詢。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：請邱召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-4","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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狀況沒有辦法因應這個物價指數所以諸位這個在上次我有特別提到這個部分你也非常的認同是嗎"},{"start":105.572,"end":125.464,"text":"有關於軍職退伍的炮轍他們定期給付金額的調整這是《陸海空軍軍事官服役條例》39條還有施行規則48條的規定這是剛剛委員所提到的當消費者的指數累積成長增幅5%然後每4年會做一個檢討這是現行的相關的規定"},{"start":128.746,"end":147.562,"text":"那要不要調整,調整的比例是由相關退輔機關,包括國防部、全系部、教育部共同組成這個專業評估的小組來評估整個調整的方案,就報告考試員跟行政院合併,那本部來質詢。那陳國光委員說的,那目前最近兩次的調整"},{"start":149.283,"end":158.647,"text":"111年7月配合4年時間到了定期的調整調整2%那113年調整4%因為物價指數在111到112物價指數成長了5.52%那目前114年我所知道的我們並沒有研議退職人員調薪的相關的一些事情"},{"start":170.708,"end":194.784,"text":"好,所以也予以重視金公教因為現在對軍人來講是他們最能夠在意的就是調薪那當然國軍希望能夠給他們一個非常重視跟尊重那另外就是有沒有可能農民"},{"start":197.134,"end":214.805,"text":"榮民的醫院到經營的醫院的看診的優惠你是不是可以責成跟國防部來做一個雙向的一個溝通因為很多我想各位你一生中你是軍人出身"},{"start":215.706,"end":229.665,"text":"我相信你的習慣都到你的在軍業裡面比如說替你看診的他的專業他的權威你可能會富裕信心交給他來看診"},{"start":230.947,"end":231.247,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":248.214,"end":251.975,"text":"上次委員指導之後,我們現在目前正在辦理的是不分退伍的關節,有志榮民全合補助"},{"start":266.981,"end":279.967,"text":"我們修了我們相關的一個就醫的辦法,已經完成了。現在目前陳茂行政院在核定當中。那這個將來的預算是每年大概增加新台幣1200萬元。"},{"start":282.228,"end":310.845,"text":"那如果剛剛委員所指導的我們可以轉到國軍軍醫院的話那這個醫療補助的費用負擔我相信你們會考慮到這個預算的問題可能會增加一倍以上但是你們可以在院會提出這樣的想法如果不提出怎麼會有這個怎麼會有這個機會但這也是直接照顧到軍人啦好不好你也是本身軍人我也是本身軍人所有委員的關心"},{"start":312.006,"end":321.871,"text":"我想說你們提出這樣的一個概念這是一個我的論述希望能夠促成好不好另外就是因為"},{"start":323.513,"end":350.044,"text":"我比個案例108年的5月1號警察消防海巡移民空勤人員醫療照護實施的方案的對象是警消海巡移民及空勤等人等人員及遺見而且還包含退休人員照護的方式之一是以國防部"},{"start":350.664,"end":366.249,"text":"退補會所屬的醫療機構就醫時免收掛號費而且在國防部退補會所屬醫療機構就醫健保部分分擔者來這個費用由"},{"start":367.811,"end":386.645,"text":"行政院全額補助所以這個可以比照這樣的一個方案然後來做一個討論跟我們的國防部來雙向的一個溝通來替我們這個軍人能夠習慣到軍醫裡面看審也比照榮民的待遇裡面好不好"},{"start":387.645,"end":404.313,"text":"謝謝委員關心另外就是針對退補會高山農場恐遭到光電板的入侵我想你們這個退補會在新聞稿裡面有澄清新增太陽能相關事項是針對現況無法農業"},{"start":408.796,"end":424.409,"text":"這個農業耕作使用是低度利用土地,農場得以符合地方政府土地使用管制規定前提之下,這個評估自己的方式,但是如果你今天把這個高山農場要設置關電板的時候,請問在"},{"start":430.053,"end":452.558,"text":"設置這樣的一個這麼清幽而且沒有污染的地方而造成你光電的設置造成污染這個就是你們要考慮的地方因為退不會全國經營的五大農場機構經營事項正式新增太陽能及生殖能相關事項所以你們要考慮"},{"start":453.698,"end":467.333,"text":"如果建蓋這個太陽能只是你們剛剛所提的你們新聞稿的澄清裡面的範圍可是一旦設置太陽能的時候可能就不止這個範圍了為什麼業者會借用這個機會裡面去設置其他的一個地方"},{"start":472.839,"end":486.084,"text":"所以這個就是你們要思考的可不可能暫緩先不要再做這樣的一個光電的一個入侵的一個辦法你們再思考看看有沒有可能"},{"start":487.321,"end":516.161,"text":"各位有關於農場開放重電造成環境問題我跟委員做過說明我們曾經發佈過新聞稿我們現在目前山高山光光的農場是絕對沒有那個絕對會影響就是山高山是沒有的我們現在唯一有的是平地彰化農場是平地農場那這平地農場彰化農場有16處大概17公頃它是設置在哪裡是低度利用等於沒有開發價值的土地的地方一個排水溝"},{"start":517.022,"end":517.162,"text":"很好!"},{"start":545.709,"end":573.325,"text":"謝謝我們主委今天提出的想法我們是一致的那另外就是剛剛徐巧欣委員所提的幻象2000不管今天它就是要做一個雙渦輪雙引擎我們今天我們所有的幻象2000所有的機密它包含它的機種機能跟它的這個整個的一個信念對岸都已經了若指掌第二個"},{"start":574.085,"end":603.568,"text":"我們未來我們如果要延續延壽8年甚至到20年有沒有必要更換新的機種以成本的條件來說如果今天我們在延續延壽但是如果它的成本的價高而且它的機種它的極限提高價格的話我們國人能不能接受所以是你們思考的地方好不好"},{"start":604.068,"end":606.249,"text":"我相信你們在擔任國防部的時候你就很清楚他的性能沒有錯"},{"start":620.097,"end":647.135,"text":"但是如果8年延售到20年已經機種已經以現代的機種來講改為6代機了改為6代機了所以有沒有必要延售有沒有必要再來來跟他們做一個簽約合同把這些的這個機種再延售下去成本過高成本過高好不好主委我會轉達給他們謝謝委員指導"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:57:33 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11:08:24","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155306","gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時57分）有請嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：王委員好。"],["黃委員仁：主委好，關於退休俸比照軍公教調薪，這一切問題的根源都在於物價，調薪只是一個結果，軍公教員工的待遇經過審議委員會的決議，在民國114年1月1號起調整3%，這是從88年迄今二十五年來，首度連續兩年調薪，也就是111年後的第三次調薪，前兩次調薪皆為4%。主委，軍公教調薪的原因是什麼？","第二，軍公教員工是勞動經濟中最標準的固定薪資階級，意思也就是他們的所得不會因為經濟環境而浮動，這也表示物價上漲的時候，固定薪資階級的實際所得其實是減少的，所以消費者物價指數是軍公教員工是否調薪最重要的指標，因為他們在任何的狀況都沒有辦法因應物價指數，主委，上次我有特別提到這個部分，你也非常認同，是嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，關於軍職退伍袍澤定期給付金額的調整，這是依陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例第三十九條還有施行細則第四十八條規定，就是剛剛委員所提到的，當消費者指數累計成長正負5%，每四年會做一個檢討，這是現行的相關規定。至於要不要調整、調整的比例是由相關退輔機關，包含國防部、銓敘部、教育部共同組成專業評估小組來評估整個調整方案，最後報到考試院跟行政院核定，由本部來執行。誠如剛剛委員說的，最近兩次的調整是111年7月，配合4年時間到了定期的調整，調整2%；113年調整4%，因為物價指數在111年到112年，物價指數成長了5.52%，目前就我所知道的，114年並沒有研議退職人員調薪相關的一些事情。"],["黃委員仁：好，所以也應予重視軍公教，因為現在對軍人來講，他們最在意的就是調薪，當然國軍希望能夠給他們非常的重視跟尊重。","另外就是到榮民到軍醫院看診的優惠，你是不是可以責成跟國防部來做雙向的溝通？主委你是軍人出身，我相信你的習慣都在軍醫院裡面……比如替你看診的醫生，他的專業、他的權威，你可能會有信心交給他來看診。我們退伍之後變成榮民的話，當然我們到軍醫院裡面，所得到的待遇並不是像榮民一樣的優惠，所以是不是可以跟國防部裡面再做雙向溝通，能不能比照榮民到榮總看診的待遇，讓榮民到軍中的軍醫院裡面也有一樣的優惠、比照這樣的條件，有沒有可能？"],["嚴主任委員德發：上次委員指導之後，我們目前正在辦理的是不分退伍的官階，有職榮民全額補助，我們修了相關的就醫辦法，已經完成了，目前呈報行政院在核定當中。這部分將來的預算每一年大概增加新臺幣1,200萬元，如果像剛剛委員所指導的，我們可以轉到國軍軍醫院的話，這個醫療補助的費用負擔……"],["黃委員仁：我相信你們會考慮到預算的問題，可能會增加一倍以上，但是你們可以在院會提出這樣的想法，如果不提出，怎麼會有這個機會？但這也是直接照顧到軍人，好不好？你本身也是軍人，我本身也是軍人。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員的關心。"],["黃委員仁：我想說你們提出這樣的概念，這是我的論述，希望能夠促成，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員仁：我舉個案例，108年5月1號警察、消防、海巡、移民、空勤人員醫療照護實施方案的對象是警消、海巡、移民及空勤等人員及遺眷，而且還包含退休人員照護的方式之一是於國防部退輔會所屬的醫療機構就醫時免收掛號費，而且在國防部退輔會所屬醫療機構就醫，健保部分負擔的費用由行政院全額補助，所以可以比照這樣的方案，然後來做討論，跟國防部雙向溝通，軍人習慣到軍醫院去看診，也比照榮民的待遇，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員關心。"],["黃委員仁：另外就是針對退輔會高山農場恐遭到光電板的入侵，退輔會在新聞稿裡面有澄清，新增太陽能相關事項係針對現況無法農業耕作使用之低度利用土地，農場得於符合地方政府土地使用管制規定前提之下評估自營的方式，但是如果今天高山農場要設置光電板的時候，請問在這麼清幽而且沒有污染的地方，會不會因為光電的設置而造成污染？這個就是你們要考慮的地方。因為退輔會經營的全國五大農場機構經營事項正式新增太陽能及生質能相關事項，所以你們要考慮如果建蓋太陽能只是像剛剛所提在你們新聞稿裡面澄清的範圍，可是一旦設置太陽能電板的時候，可能就不只這個範圍了，為什麼？因為業者會借用這個機會去設置其他的地方，所以這就是你們要思考的，可不可能暫緩先不要做這樣的光電入侵的辦法？你們再思考看看，有沒有可能？"],["嚴主任委員德發：有關於農場開放種電造成環境問題，我跟委員做個說明。我們曾經發布過新聞稿，目前我們三高山觀光農場是絕對沒有，那個絕對會影響，就是三高山是沒有的，我們現在唯一有的是平地，彰化農場是平地農場，彰化農場有十六處，大概十七公頃，它是設置在哪裡呢？是低度利用，等於沒有開發價值土地的地方，包括排水溝、垃圾掩埋場等不利農業耕作的這些土地，講白一點就是廢物利用一樣，把它來種一些光電，增加一些收益，挹注到我們安置基金，照顧退除役官兵，因為你放在那邊，它低度利用也是浪費。我們會照委員指導，不要影響到周邊其他地區，尤其不要造成生態環境污染，我們都嚴密地在做管制。"],["黃委員仁：很好，謝謝主委今天提出的想法，我們是一致的。","另外就是剛剛徐巧芯委員所提的幻象2000，不管今天它是不是要做雙渦輪雙引擎，今天我們幻象2000所有的機密、包含它的機種、機能以及整個的信念，對岸都已經瞭若指掌。第二個，未來我們如果要延壽八年，甚至到二十年，有沒有必要更換新的機種？以成本的條件來說，如果今天我們再延壽，但是它的成本價高，而且它的機種、機件提高價格的話，我們國人能不能接受？這也是你們應該要思考的地方，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員，我會把委員的意見轉達給空軍，因為我離開部長的位子已經有一段時間。"],["黃委員仁：我上次都已經質詢有關於幻象2000汰換的問題，我相信你在擔任國防部長的時候，你就很清楚它的性能，但是如果八年延壽到二十年，以現代的機種來講，已經改為六代機了，所以有沒有必要延壽，有沒有必要跟他們簽約，把這個機種再延壽下去，成本過高，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我會轉達給他們，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員，主委請回。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-3","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","洪申翰","王定宇","黃仁","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","邱志偉"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-09","影片長度":"00:11:24","end_time":"2024-10-09T11:13:34+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155305","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","duration":684,"start_time":"2024-10-09T11:02:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f44693e142c0600aa536cbe69c8a87424cc4e7309f7945e562b050408041dece426e120690778beb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.978468750000001,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.353468750000001,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.74096875,"end":20.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.52971875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.96409375,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.722843750000003,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.59971875,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.61659375,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.63346875,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.017218750000005,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.48534375,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.86034375,"end":71.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.83409375000001,"end":88.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.26596875,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.28221875000001,"end":95.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.45909375000001,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.86346875000001,"end":101.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.85471875,"end":104.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.39471875000001,"end":102.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.71909375000001,"end":108.67221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.05221875000001,"end":1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把經濟部加下去98.039所以如果我們只有36頁然後呢預算書裡面每一個名字都不一樣就會有這個問題"},{"start":378.897,"end":398.582,"text":"預算書應該是正確的啦 國科會98億 經濟部其實有73.3億 速發部7.7億 教育部2.5億 國發會 農業部 衛福部都有 比較少所以183不會再變喔 不會啦 183是啦 那如果多了如果少了勒 你確定喔"},{"start":400.26,"end":427.786,"text":"要去喔!我們都有錄影紀錄喔!回去算一下很可能會變喔!因為你們在預算書我真的拜託主委還有各位官員回去看一下你們在預算書裡面的每一個計畫都不叫做晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案為什麼每一個名字都不一樣?你們是想加多的時候就加多想變少的時候就變少嗎?我在這裡跟主委交流一下預算法第39條"},{"start":431.039,"end":449.353,"text":"繼續經費預算之編制因列明全部計劃之內容經費總額執行期間以及注意喔各年度之分配額依各年度之分配額編列該年度的預算我們連明年的預算數字都會變了後年呢大後年呢"},{"start":451.295,"end":466.34,"text":"各位,金創方案是一個方案。真正行政編預算是要有計劃的。那個計劃如果是多年期,一定多年期那個計劃都會有。什麼叫做只是一個方案?這是一個已經核定的?"},{"start":467.116,"end":468.136,"text":"我認為大家都很認真在做事"},{"start":494.921,"end":513.819,"text":"我們在預算書裡真的沒有看到這個名字的計畫每一個名字都不一樣金創方案不是計畫金創方案不是計畫但是在金創方案裡面可能會有一些計畫他沒有把金創方案寫出來那每一個名字都不一樣啊都是跟晶片有關的好沒關係我相信你們有一個PDF檔是有列出來的"},{"start":516.141,"end":540.665,"text":"本席在此希望要求國科會的主計單位依據預算法第39條今天下班前找到這個檔案PDF也好 Excel也好把應該列明的資訊分年的計劃各年度的分配而以書面方式符合39條的內容書面方式送到本席的辦公室否則我覺得這樣我們怎麼這是不是規避預算審核啊"},{"start":544.822,"end":552.477,"text":"這根本就是一個1330億的大黑箱甚至是一個10年3000億的大黑箱啊那你跟我講四個字指示方案"},{"start":553.906,"end":574.572,"text":"金創台灣那是一個方案那是行政院的方案但是我們計畫說計畫一定都會按照預算法編列一定都會的所以對不起我覺得我今天比較激動因為我是真的很希望搞清楚在座有很多都是我的老師所有人都非常在意AI的發展但是我們現在沒有人搞得清楚我們3年後可以花多少錢4年後可以花多少錢"},{"start":576.773,"end":589.438,"text":"我們台德做了這麼努力可能就1億多夠嗎我們的算力現在50幾全球排名第17夠嗎然後我們問來問去每次算力的數字都不一樣你在內容報告書裡寫100PF然後呢現在變成116"},{"start":594.94,"end":616.612,"text":"剛剛呢我們又知道說五年內算力要變成280加上大南方又變成480 480我們好不容易可以排到亞洲第二名 對不對我們想要排亞洲第三 前三嘛 對不對我告訴主委亞洲第二名是2024年的第二名啦你480加上去 我們還有產業投入還沒有算欸"},{"start":617.622,"end":621.543,"text":"所以我們想知道您是怎麼算的南韓的數字2028是多少您2028要花多少錢什麼樣的計畫執行的方案我們沒有看到所以我們希望可以看到跟大家一起努力好不好這個主委可以幫忙嗎請主計單位把預算的細節交付到本委員辦公室"},{"start":644.77,"end":670.564,"text":"否則啦我認為這樣子的一個做法我就給您八個字希望科學計算我們到底什麼樣的目標用科學的方法去計算不要用喊的合理的預算科學計算合理預算讓我們台灣真的成為AI影響力的中心我會請委員兩位老師一定會把它弄好謝謝單位主計單位好不好主計單位"},{"start":672.045,"end":672.526,"text":"謝謝葛如鈞委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:02:10 - 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PetaFLOPS，然後現在變成116，剛剛我們又知道5年內算力要變成280，加上大南方又變成480，我們好不容易可以排到亞洲第2名，對不對？我們想要在亞洲排名前三名嘛！對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們將來還會有產業……"],["葛委員如鈞：我要告訴主委，亞洲第二名是2024年的第二名，你480加上去可能……"],["吳主任委員誠文：產業的投入還沒有算，新加坡……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們想知道你是怎麼算的？南韓的數字2028是多少？你2028要花多少錢？什麼樣的計畫執行方案？這些我們沒有看到，我們希望可以看到來跟大家一起努力，好不好？這個主委可以幫忙嗎？請主計單位把預算的細節交付到本委員辦公室，否則我認為這樣的作法，我就給你6個字：「希望科學計算」，到底我們有什麼樣的目標，請用科學的方法去計算，不要用喊的。合理的預算，科學計算、合理預算，讓我們臺灣真的成為AI影響力中心，好嗎？謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我會請委員的2位老師一定把它弄好，送到您的辦公室。"],["葛委員如鈞：請主計單位，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，主計單位會協助。"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：技術的人都做得非常完整，現在是資料整合的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們會把它弄完整，謝謝。"],["主席：因為時間已經到了。謝謝葛如鈞委員。","本席在這裡要先提醒一下，我們在備詢的時候還是有一個備詢的規則，我知道大家都很心急，我也知道，因為葛如鈞委員很客氣，也有很多師生關係在裡面，但是來到委員會要尊重備詢的規則，除非委員有詢問到，或是主席有邀請，不然的話，我希望大家不要那麼心急，好不好？我們慢慢的說明和解釋，謝謝。","接下來我們有請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","范雲","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","葉元之","吳春城","王定宇","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","羅智強","陳冠廷","張嘉郡","邱志偉"],"page_start":375,"meetingDate":["2024-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00017"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}