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燒盡公婆照顧父母是我們非常重要的一環。然而現行的政策卻忽視了新住民家庭的特殊狀況, 剝奪了我們聚會和照顧長輩的機會。 因此,與政府重新檢視"},{"start":1967.544,"end":1991.942,"text":"新住民依新政策提供更靈活的依親管道讓我們在臺灣的新住民繼續履行我們傳統肖道美德唯一如此才能真正的成為一個包容多元尊重家庭價值的社會呼應政府跨越國界依親經銷"},{"start":1994.344,"end":2008.7,"text":"呼應政府,跨越國界,一清消道。呼應政府,跨越國界,一清消道。臺灣加油!新住民加油!謝謝大家!好,謝謝麥委員。下一位請林國成委員發言。"},{"start":2032.308,"end":2043.392,"text":"各位我們線上所有的好朋友我們各位官員各位國人同胞昨天看過賴總統的文告我覺得賴總統講的國家要團結社會要安定賴總統昨天在文告中講得非常清楚我也認同但是"},{"start":2061.806,"end":2088.803,"text":"我在這裡更認同的一句話是國家利益永遠高於政黨利益政黨利益永遠不能凌駕人民的利益這我拍拍手那我要請教賴總統你就任以來你的謊話造謠打壓政敵"},{"start":2090.577,"end":2114.293,"text":"製造對立在國人都是在找敵人這等等我請問你這次說的文告是真的或假的所以賴總統你能不能做給我們看一看千萬不要講一套做一套"},{"start":2115.916,"end":2121.2,"text":"那現在未來我就要請教我們最敬愛的左院長賴總統的話你聽不聽"},{"start":2124.198,"end":2145.276,"text":"所以賴總統已經講出這些話那你到底要不要聽他的話在整個施政在立法院的關係如何去改善你要不要有所作為那我現在只有問三個敏感的問題第一個原住民的競華補償阿你到底變不變"},{"start":2146.977,"end":2153.503,"text":"二、農民的公糧收購漲5塊錢,那你到底編不編?"},{"start":2153.503,"end":2162.052,"text":"三、另外一個,國會改革的部分,你事先到底撤不撤?"},{"start":2162.052,"end":2166.716,"text":"所以這三點我請卓院長做施政的決策參考。"},{"start":2168.226,"end":2189.211,"text":"當然我們希望代總統、左院長以及執政的所有的同仁我相信你們一定要有誠意放下屠刀、立地成火的個性所以台灣人民多數都希望兩岸和平、政黨和解"},{"start":2190.291,"end":2215.837,"text":"人民安定百姓樂利更希望執政黨要以以民為戀釋出善意達到台灣安和樂利的台灣所以在這裡我還是要拜託執政黨賴總統已經講了立地成火把所有屠刀放下政黨才會合"},{"start":2221.37,"end":2239.676,"text":"謝謝林委員報告院會現在在議場二樓旁聽喜的是臺北市建安國小的小朋友還有老師我們在此歡迎你們的參訪我們現在進行的是國是論壇每人發言三分鐘下一位請歐孟凱委員發言"},{"start":2250.683,"end":2274.07,"text":"主席、行政官員、立議院同仁以及建安師生們,大家早安、大家好。昨天是我們中華民國113歲的生日,聽到了韓國瑜院長國慶致詞跟賴清德總統上任首次的國慶演說。我們必須要說,韓院長的高度,曾經講到台積電,"},{"start":2275.425,"end":2297.482,"text":"可以是中華民國,慈濟可以是中華民國,奧運選手可以是中華民國,青年文創布袋系等等,只要認同熱愛這塊土地並且願意為中華民國努力的人,每一個人都可以是中華民國的一份子。 我想這就代表了臺灣精神,這也代表了中華民國的價值。"},{"start":2298.687,"end":2323.265,"text":"經過半個世界的努力,華麗變成世界前25大的經濟體。 臺灣價值就是中華民國價值的一體兩面。 而我們更期待的就是希望未來能夠讓政府有能、人民有權、國會有監督才能真正實現民有、民智、民想的民主精神, 落腳在臺灣、落腳在中華民國。"},{"start":2325.811,"end":2350.632,"text":"另外一個部分,我們也要說賴清德總統昨天所強調的跨黨派朝野合作,訴諸團結台灣。 我想兩千三百五十萬人沒有一個人不希望團結。 但重點是,無論國家利益高於政黨利益,政黨利益不能凌駕人民利益。 我們要請教現在執政的執政黨,你做到了嗎?"},{"start":2351.633,"end":2377.739,"text":"民進黨,你有做到嗎?過去放任網軍徹裔持續不斷拿不實的資料抹黑、再張、造謠,這樣子算是團結台灣嗎?撕裂台灣,讓中華民國國家烏煙瘴氣,這真的符合我們的國家利益嗎?民進黨說今天希望朝野和解飯能夠一飯米恩仇。"},{"start":2378.547,"end":2384.972,"text":"我必須很實際的講很抱歉在野黨與執政黨沒有恩也沒有仇"},{"start":2385.731,"end":2414.264,"text":"立法部門跟行政部門沒有恩也沒有仇大家都是為人民服務大家都是為國家利益來共同打拼既然如此我們只要求的是依法行政依法編列依法編列立即審查預算違法漏編這就是政院的怠惰所以每一個部分只要依法行政我想大家就可以開大門走大路"},{"start":2415.014,"end":2416.455,"text":"謝謝黃委員下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":2457.5,"end":2486.909,"text":"和解範韓國瑜有真心賴清德有爭議嗎首先要謝謝韓國瑜院長給了我們一個滿滿中華民國國旗的中華民國國慶為委屈了8年的中華民國爭了一口氣這是韓國瑜對中華民國對台灣的真心跟真愛我希望賴清德總統可以學習"},{"start":2489.399,"end":2508.838,"text":"賴總統除了口頭上說到中華民國有沒有像韓國瑜一樣真心誠意的愛中華民國賴總統昨天在國慶演說上說人民想要當家做主的願望終於實現我想請教賴總統"},{"start":2510.919,"end":2530.226,"text":"人民反廢死、要正義、挺核能、反空汙的願望實現了嗎?那時候還說國家要團結、社會要安定。 感謝韓國瑜和卓榮泰開啟朝野合作,促成朝野黨團會商。"},{"start":2532.076,"end":2545.367,"text":"我想請教賴總統,韓院長昨天當面呼籲您尊重國會改革,打造一個所有官員負責任、不造假、不隱瞞、不推諉的體制的建言,你聽見了嗎?"},{"start":2548.417,"end":2564.708,"text":"賴總統說國家利益永遠高於政黨利益政黨利益不能凌駕人民利益那我就請教賴總統為什麼親近執政黨的媒體8年可以拿到95億元的標案不親近執政黨的媒體卻要被罰錢關台"},{"start":2567.403,"end":2588.777,"text":"解鈴還需細鈴人,要化解朝野僵局,和解飯當然可以吃啊,但如果只是想把球踢給韓國瑜院長,那就太算計了。 要化解朝野僵局使作勇者的行政院,就應該先拋出和解的三大橄欖枝。"},{"start":2590.356,"end":2608.884,"text":"禁法補償、健保典值、公糧收購、要依法編列、尊重立法,這才是所謂的要化解朝野僵局的誠意。 所以要化解政治對立,那麼始作俑者的民進黨,"},{"start":2610.59,"end":2639.207,"text":"請你先尊重民主﹐放棄在基隆搞的惡意罷免﹐法院已經適度打臉了民進黨﹐還謝國良清白﹐我請賴清德主席﹐你趕快命令林佑昌﹐停止作亂﹐還給基隆一個善良乾淨的治理環境。﹐遞書感染之﹐化解朝野僵局跟政治對立﹐主動權就在賴清德總統手上﹐"},{"start":2639.775,"end":2641.416,"text":"要不要遞書在你一念之間謝謝羅委員登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢現在休息"},{"start":5404.327,"end":5409.253,"text":"請秘書長報告出席人數。現在開會進行報告事項,請秘書長宣讀第二會期第三次會議意思錄。"},{"start":5419.301,"end":5428.447,"text":"宣讀立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議意思錄﹖時間中華民國113年10月4日上午9時1分至9時27分、10時1分至11時59分、下午2時30分至6時3分﹖10月8日上午9時至10時25分、下午2時30分至4時31分﹖地點﹖扁院議場、出席委員、荒圍國倉等112人﹖請教委員、楊委員要﹖"},{"start":5446.718,"end":5457.893,"text":"列席官員．行政院長卓榮泰等40人．主席院長韓國瑜．副院長江啟臣．報告事項第一案．宣讀本院第11屆第2會期第2次會議事錄．決定．確定第二至6、6、4至175案．"},{"start":5464.261,"end":5472.21,"text":"均決定交互相關委員會審查或交互相關委員會。 第63案決定經獲得與相關提案並案協商。 第176至178為財政委員會等所提出報告案。"},{"start":5479.218,"end":5501.175,"text":"第179、180案均決定展延審查期限。 質詢事項本院委員質詢部分三件。 討論事項第一案決議交互黨團協商。 第二、三案均決議互議案不通過。 第四案決議另定體處理。 對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 決定下次會議進行經濟組織質詢。 其他事項"},{"start":5506.377,"end":5510.659,"text":"本次會議施政報告事項、執行事項．對行政院院長施政報告繼續執行．照台灣民眾黨黨團提議通過．討論事項．台灣民眾黨黨團及國民黨黨團提議通過．宣讀完畢。法院會針對第二會期第三次會議一事錄"},{"start":5528.837,"end":5556.544,"text":"並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處,作以下決定,第二會期第三次會議意思度確定,請宣讀第二案。第二案,本院委員洪森漢等17人理據《身心障礙者權利公約施行法》第五條、第六條及第八條條文修正草案請選一案。陳修緣會見,您請問會教衛教及國防、社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查,宣讀完畢。有異議,請問有異議,無異議通過。"},{"start":5558.789,"end":5583.792,"text":"第三案 本月委員紅山案等17人離聚,勞動基準法增提第40條之一條文草案請審議案。 程序委員會見,立行會交,社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 請勿有異議,無異議通過。 第四案 本月委員范雲等16人離聚,青年基本法草案請審議案。 程序委員會見,立行會交,教育及文化委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異議通過。"},{"start":5584.67,"end":5585.11,"text":"五議通過五議通過"},{"start":5607.95,"end":5633.286,"text":"無異議通過。 第7案本院委員業員之等20人理據公有貴重財稅文物清點法草案請水一案。 程序委員會見你請會交財政教育及文化聯盟委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異議通過。 第8案本院委員業員之等21人理據教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案請水一案。 程序委員會見你請會交教育及文化聯盟委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異議通過。"},{"start":5633.973,"end":5658.984,"text":"第9案 本院委員翁曉琳等18日離去臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第67條條文修正常案請審議案。 程序委員會見立行會交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異動過。 第10案 本院委員黃傑等18日離去立法委員行為法第10條及第14條之一條文修正常案請審議案。 程序委員會見立行會交司法及法制委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異動過。 第11案"},{"start":5661.004,"end":5681.44,"text":"本院委員王宏偉等20人離聚娛樂稅法第2條條文修正常請審議案。 程序委員會見你請回交財政委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 第12案本院委員王宏偉等23人離聚公共電視法第11條條文修正常請審議案。 程序委員會見你請回交教育及文化委員會審查。 宣言完畢。"},{"start":5681.98,"end":5696.832,"text":"無異議通過。 第13案本院委員洪孟凱等19人領據《運動產業發展條例增令》第7條之一、第7條之二及第7條之三條文草案請水應案。 程序委員會見。 請回交交給王化元會審查。 宣布完畢。 無異議通過。"},{"start":5697.572,"end":5720.484,"text":"第14案 本院委員陳玉珍等19人理據《人民團體法》增令第8條之1條文草原請選一案。 陳修委員會見。 立行委員將內政委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 委員當過第15案 本院委員陳玉珍等18人理據《地方制度法》第56條條文修正草原請選一案。 陳修委員會見。 立行委員將內政司法及法制兩委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 委員當過"},{"start":5721.585,"end":5741.921,"text":"第16案 本院委員陳玉珍等19人凝聚。 領導建設條例增立第13條之一及第13條之二條文草案請水一案。 陳書遠會見理行會交經紀委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過第17案 本院委員陳玉珍等17人凝聚。 領導建設條例增立第18條之一條文草案請水一案。 陳書遠會見理行會交經紀委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過"},{"start":5746.124,"end":5768.309,"text":"第18案 本院委員陳玉珍等17人邻居正確交易法第22條條文修正草案請水印案。 陳修揚會見理行會交財政委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 無異議通過第19案 本院委員邱振軍等17人邻居所得稅法第17條條文修正草案請水印案。 陳修揚會見理行會交財政委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 無異議通過"},{"start":5769.049,"end":5769.15,"text":"御異議通過"},{"start":5780.444,"end":5801.262,"text":"第21案本委員委員邱振均等17人鄰居中華民國新法第339條14條文修正草原清水案陳修揚會見你請會交司法及法制委員會審查。 宣傳完畢。 無異議通過第22案本委員委員楊崇英等19人鄰居武統計劃法第45條條文修正草原清水案陳修揚會見你請會交內政委員會審查。 宣傳完畢。 無異議通過"},{"start":5805.578,"end":5828.027,"text":"第二十三案本院委員楊瓊英等20人理據《都市更新條例》第65條條文修正財運情緒議案陳秀燕會見立行會長內政委員會審查 宣言完畢第二十四案本院委員楊瓊英等19人理據《教育經費編列與管理法》第三條條文修正財運情緒議案陳秀燕會見立行會教育及文化委員會審查 宣言完畢"},{"start":5828.567,"end":5829.528,"text":"五一當過五一當過五一當過"},{"start":5857.071,"end":5867.858,"text":"第27案 本委員 楊瓊怡的21年年居老人福利法第22條條文修正草案請選案。 陳秀陽會議員明顯會將社會福利優先環境文會審查。 宣言完畢。"},{"start":5870.072,"end":5892.132,"text":"二十八案 本院委員要求1.21人理據《社會救助法》第十一條條文修正草案請水印案。 程序委員會間你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣言完畢二十九案 本院委員領取1.19人理據《正確教育稅條例》第二條主二條文修正草案請水印案。 程序委員會間你請回交財政委員會審查。 宣言完畢"},{"start":5893.632,"end":5916.489,"text":"第30案本院委員林楚英等18人聯聚徒地稅法第54條條文修正常請審議案。 程序委員會見你請回交財政委員會審查。 宣布完畢。 無異議通過第31案本院委員林楚英等20人聯聚身心障礙者權益保障法第10條條文修正常請審議案。 程序委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣布完畢。 無異議通過"},{"start":5917.29,"end":5940.938,"text":"李三十二案 本院委員林楚瑩等學習委員連續兒童青少年福利與權益保障法第69條條文修正財運緊水一案。 財修委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣言完畢李三十三案 本院委員賴會員等37人連續證券交易稅條例第2條12及第12條條文修正財運緊水一案。 財修委員會見你請回交財政委員會審查。 宣言完畢"},{"start":5943.679,"end":5944.44,"text":"第三十四案．第35案．第35案．"},{"start":5967.321,"end":5992.241,"text":"第三十六案 本月委員往美會等18日離聚替代議實施條例第59條條文修正操請選一案。 財修委員會見立行會長內政委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 我亦當過。第三十七案 本月委員往美會等18日離聚全民健康保險法陣列第13條之一及第13條之二條文操案請選一案。 財修委員會見立行會長社會福利基金會上環境委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 我亦當過。"},{"start":5992.921,"end":5992.941,"text":"無異動過"},{"start":6004.008,"end":6026.353,"text":"第39案 本院委員郭國文等16人邻居所得稅碼第17條條文修正常請選一案。 前修委員會間你請回交財政委員會審查。 宣傳完畢。 委員通過第40案 本院委員郭國文等16人邻居公務稅條例第12條基地12條之6條文修正常請選一案。 前修委員會間你請回交財政委員會審查。 宣傳完畢。 委員通過"},{"start":6027.213,"end":6046.091,"text":"第41案本院委員郭國文的16人理據公司法第165條條文修正財務請選一案。 陳修緣會見你請回交經濟委員會審查。 宣言完畢。第42案本院委員林月琴等25人理據兒童青少年福利與權益保障法第69條及第103條條文修正財務請選一案。 陳修緣會見你請回交社會福利集會上環境委員會審查。 宣言完畢。"},{"start":6051.997,"end":6075.406,"text":"五一通過。 第43案本院委員吳春晨等41人領據《壯士態政策與產業方針促進法》草案請審議案。 程序委員會見,立行會交社會福利及衛生環境經濟兩委員會審查。 宣告完畢。 五一通過。 第44案本院台灣民眾黨兩團領據《公民投票法》第21條及第43條條文修正草案請審議案。 程序委員會見,立行會交內屆委員會審查。 宣告完畢。"},{"start":6079.328,"end":6099.362,"text":"第45案 本月臺灣民眾囊囊團聯聚公職委員選舉報名違法第62條條文修正草案請審議案。 詳細委員會見你請回交內政委員會審查。 宣言完畢第46案 本月臺灣民眾囊囊團聯聚在省里原發生條例第19條之一及第21條條文修正草案請審議案。 詳細委員會見你請回交經濟委員會審查。 宣言完畢"},{"start":6103.385,"end":6126.302,"text":"第47案﹐本月臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚﹐農村再生條例第二條及第35條條文修正草原侵水案﹐程序委員會見﹐立行會加入經濟委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢。 委員動過第48案﹐本月臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚﹐國民教育法第3條及第4條條文修正草原侵水案﹐程序委員會見﹐立行會加入教育及文化委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢。 委員動過"},{"start":6127.583,"end":6150.169,"text":"第49案 本院臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚國民體育法第18條及第44條條文修正常請審議案。 前序委員會見立行會教教育界文化委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 委員通告第50案 本院臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚停車場法第38條條文修正常請審議案。 前序委員會見立行會教交通委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 委員通告"},{"start":6150.871,"end":6173.285,"text":"第51案﹐本月臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚公路法第39條之一條維修憲草案請審議案﹐財修委員會見立行會交交通委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢。 五議通過。 第52案﹐本月臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚體育及運動發展部組織法草案請審議案﹐財修委員會見立行會交司法及法制教育及文化聯委委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6173.965,"end":6175.026,"text":"五、一、當過五、一、當過五、一、當過五、一、當過五、一、當過五、一、當過"},{"start":6197.003,"end":6210.589,"text":"我異動過。 第55案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條談文修正常競選議案。 前衆委員會見議請回交司法及法治委員或審查。 宣言完畢。 我異動過。"},{"start":6211.564,"end":6234.642,"text":"第56案 本月臺灣民眾黨老團凝聚公務人員保障法暫定第19條之一條文草案請審議案。 陳修揚會見你請回交司法及法律委員會審查。 宣告完畢第57案 本月臺灣民眾黨老團凝聚勞動檢查法第15條條文修正草案請審議案。 陳修揚會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣告完畢"},{"start":6235.242,"end":6235.642,"text":"五、一、當過五、一、當過"},{"start":6249.008,"end":6265.118,"text":"第59案 金融監督管理委員會橫送延長調降當日重銷交易稅之稅市支出評估報告及延長延長調降當中交易證券交易稅實施期間公聽會之會議解錄。 柴修委員會間內行會交財政委員會處理。 宣讀完畢本案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查交財政委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6275.697,"end":6277.739,"text":"本案台灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查交經濟委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6293.345,"end":6311.751,"text":"第61案 行政委員響為內政部辦理替代以備役藝男召集訓練實施方案 治安維護組及防災救護組訓練經費不敷 同時113年度中央政府總預算第二日備金1億3940萬3千元致應 資檢送第二日備金動證書和機關別表 請衆議院會見 您請回交財政內政兩委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6316.445,"end":6331.373,"text":"第62案 前紀委行委海洋委員會海巡署堅持衛星導航搜尋系統所需經費,都是113年度中央政府總預算第2日被禁,4億6千4百7十萬元之印,自檢送第2日被禁動之數為7萬別票。 前紀委員會見,您請回交財政內政兩委員會。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6335.996,"end":6358.571,"text":"第63案．經濟部海外修正地質資料供應及收費標準第3條附表二﹐陳秀元會見逆行會交經濟委員會﹐宣告完畢。 二議通過第64案．經濟部海外修正經濟部經貿人員培訓所編制表﹐並自112年9月26日生效﹐陳秀元會見逆行會交司法及法治經濟聯盟委員會﹐宣告完畢。 二議通過"},{"start":6360.576,"end":6368.769,"text":"第62 農業部橫送農業部農田水利署 平等管理處 農田水利事業區域內灌溉制度 財修委員會見 以及匯交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6370.663,"end":6373.104,"text":"五一通過五一通過五一通過"},{"start":6398.01,"end":6422.004,"text":"第68案 農業部海運修正公告﹐澳大利亞新南威爾斯省自冬病原性家庭流息性感冒非去刪除﹐強行委員會見你請回交經濟委員會﹐宣布完畢。 委員通告第69案 農業部海運修正公告﹐農業部農田水利署、桃園管理處、農田水利事業區域內灌溉制度﹐強行委員會見你請回交經濟委員會﹐宣布完畢。 委員通告"},{"start":6422.591,"end":6436.149,"text":"第70案 農業部考原農會與會信用部賠付專款將給付中央存款保險股份有限公司﹐以捐付委任律師單位訴訟﹐所支出相關費用新台幣552,000元﹐程序委員會見﹐立行會交經濟委員會﹐宣傳完畢"},{"start":6439.81,"end":6441.21,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":6461.437,"end":6461.637,"text":"委員通告"},{"start":6471.932,"end":6473.233,"text":"五一通過五一通過五一通過"},{"start":6495.894,"end":6509.727,"text":"第76案 金融監督管理委員會 駐宅地震保險危險分散機制實施辦法 第9條、第10條、第13條調溫 及參觀法人駐宅地震保險基金管理辦法 第7條、第11條調溫 程序委員會見議請回交財政委員會 宣誓完畢"},{"start":6513.243,"end":6542.265,"text":"主席 第77案 專科學校法實行細則第5條之1條文 採取委員會建立行會教育及文化委員會 宣布完畢主席 第78案 教育部海文修正教育司法實行細則第18條條文 採取委員會建立行會教育及文化委員會 宣布完畢主席 第79案 教育部海文修正大學法實行細則第17條之1條文 採取委員會建立行會教育及文化委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":6543.171,"end":6543.291,"text":"五、一、動過"},{"start":6561.343,"end":6589.228,"text":"第81案 璇璣木海維修正璇璣木教育農林璇璣處辦事系責部份條文。 財政委員會見立行會交司法及法制財政兩委員會。 宣讀完畢。 國議通過第82案 璇璣木海維修正管制藥品分階級品項部份分階級品項。 財政委員會見立行會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會。 宣讀完畢。本來國民黨黨團提議改交審查交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 下一案"},{"start":6589.673,"end":6607.983,"text":"第一八十三案 勞動部海外修正 中業服務法 實行細則 第九條 第九條之一及第十五條條文 陳修緣會見 您請回交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣讀完畢無異動過第一八十四案 物性福利部海外修正 學民健康保險醫療辦法 第22條及第28條條文 陳修緣會見 您請回交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣讀完畢無異動過"},{"start":6615.083,"end":6617.025,"text":"本案國民黨黨團提議改交審查,交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。"},{"start":6632.728,"end":6650.84,"text":"第86案 衛生福利部函送化妝品防曬劑成分使用限制表﹐出現化妝品成分使用限制表﹐及廢止特定用途化妝品成分名稱及使用限制表﹐並至113年7月1日生效。 程序委員會見 您請回交社會福利機構上環境委員會。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6653.134,"end":6679.576,"text":"第87案 衛生福利部海外修正 要事法第106條所稱﹐無要事委員職業之偏遠地區與非屬上屬偏遠地區列表附表10附表14﹐及全民健康保險系醫療資源不足地區來商方案循環地點﹐列屬要事法第106條所稱﹐無要事委員職業之偏遠地區列表附表6附表10﹐程序委員會見﹐你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6681.721,"end":6683.262,"text":"國民黨黨團提議改交審查,交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。"},{"start":6700.848,"end":6707.61,"text":"報告院會第89案至第190案請依序宣讀其中第92、93、99、106、108、111、112、115、162、171、177及182案"},{"start":6722.295,"end":6747.386,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查。 第161案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議退回程序委員會重新提出。 宣讀後以上提案除退回程序委員會重新提出外其他均改交相關委員會審查。 其餘議案均照程序委員會意見通過。 請問院會有異議。"},{"start":6750.16,"end":6776.325,"text":"五、一、宣讀後通過請宣讀。第189案之第105案農業部,第106案之第10方案經濟部,第109案選計部,第110案之第11經案財政部,第11方案行政院,第119案核能安全委員會,第120案之第133案教育部,第134案之第146案文化部,第14經案之第160案國家科學及基礎委員會,第1161案國家通訊傳播委員會,"},{"start":6777.005,"end":6778.826,"text":"發言會第191案宣讀後照程序委員會意見通過另外"},{"start":6805.185,"end":6827.885,"text":"第192案以下請一併宣讀,宣讀後均准予被查,請宣讀。第191案本院司法及法治委員會衡為院會前交部審查行政院案情審議,未選同這時期國家不法行為被害者權利回覆條例部分條文修正常案,應該與法案主管機關委內政部盡情改交全責所屬委員會審查。"},{"start":6829.466,"end":6837.59,"text":"陳迅委員會見﹚第192案為本院財政委員會函﹚為院會教部審查財政法人﹚臺灣金融研訓院等7家財政法人﹚111年度預算書案﹚已於年度預算執行期間﹚第193案為本院財政委員會函﹚為院會教部審查財政法人﹚臺灣金融研訓院等7家財政法人﹚"},{"start":6858.28,"end":6882.364,"text":"即將在論壇人一百十一年度決算書案﹐因予以送達後一年內完成審查之期限﹐原於決策法第28條適同審議通過。 質詢事項﹐假施政院答覆部分﹐施政院還送本院黃委員介好﹐所提質詢之書面答覆共一件﹐以本院委員質詢部分﹐本院羅委員志強等向施政院提出質詢共三件。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6885.933,"end":6894.925,"text":"報告院會現在對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。今天進行個人質詢、經濟組織質詢。現在請郭國文委員質詢。"},{"start":6921.411,"end":6938.468,"text":"主席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢郭委員長卓院長好聽說今天中午要吃和解飯"},{"start":6939.568,"end":6968.217,"text":"好像應該史上第一例嘛,史無前例嘛,是不是?不會吧?真的嗎?對,我印象中,我打聽的結果應該是史無前例啊。但這要和解飯中午要吃啊。陳建仁院長的時候也是多次這樣,院長之間有聯誼啊。行政,立法院長邀行政院長應該是第一次啦,據我理解的部分。這個也不是什麼邀,我們是約好的,也沒有誰邀誰,約好的。沒關係,誰主動都沒有關係,重點是結果。結果有沒有信心?"},{"start":6969.791,"end":6993.41,"text":"結果有沒有信心?和解能不能達成?對國家有信心,對任何的團結的動作就要深具信念。對韓院長要有信心?有有有有。你如果能夠達成的話,這趟和解飯我跟他算一下,總預算的金額高達3兆1325億。如果能夠吃完這趟飯,你的行情就不一樣了。"},{"start":6994.491,"end":7021.706,"text":"我照委員這樣算,那民間的任何的投資更大,我覺得這是國家整體發展,我們一起努力。對,為了福國人民,這趟飯一定要吃,一定要和解。 院長,加油啊,祝你成功。另外,院長,今天的這個新聞有一個,就立法院的預算中心提出一個低薪的一個報告,有關低薪的報告當中,本席在這個質詢台上我講了好幾次,不論是央行提出報告,不論是監察院,"},{"start":7023.094,"end":7044.989,"text":"審計部提出報告,最後提出不外乎三個辦法,一個就是鼓勵企業加薪,第二個提高最低工資,第三個協助勞工的溢價能力。後兩者老實講,該發揮的都發揮了,就剩下企業而已。企業的部分本席上次有質詢要跟企業喊話,就我理解你還沒喊話,但是總統已經喊話了。"},{"start":7046.73,"end":7066.595,"text":"但是就我來說我相信你還有很多機會可以跟企業喊話更何況企業找你的機會非常的多還有一點本席提醒你一下以前行政院曾經提成立一個小組叫改善所得分配專案小組這個跨部會的小組後來居然取消掉了院長你知道這件事情嗎我要再瞭解一下你要去瞭解一下"},{"start":7071.874,"end":7099.05,"text":"如果說站在一個行政院部會連一個小組都解除掉的話很難讓人家相信說政府有那個決心跟魄力想要來解決現在低頻近頻低新或低新造成近頻的一個現象這個問題非同小可上次的論述當中我已經都跟你提過了麻煩院長再費心一下另外院長你在9月15號的時候有去過本期的選區七股對不對"},{"start":7100.612,"end":7123.83,"text":"那一次你特別去看太陽能光電的案場那個案場你去看是成功的案例啊但是有很多諸多失敗受到社會詬病甚至檢方介入甚至起訴的案件以及小惡假的現象本身必須在這邊慎重的提醒為什麼因為當初就是為了追求KPI啊"},{"start":7124.898,"end":7152.717,"text":"以至於整個綠能在推動的過程當中失去了正當性受到在野黨污名化也好受到社會的質疑也好以至於現階段我們要推動綠能變成是難上加難但是本席想要再提醒一下院長諸如此類的現象不是發生在太陽能業者而已還發生在什麼就天然氣的部分"},{"start":7156.808,"end":7177.48,"text":"我們現在天然氣的整個發展的目標2025的能源目標明年就到了50%天然氣30%燃煤20%再生能源現實上我們的天然氣大概目前佔4成燃煤的部分超過4成多一點核能的部分佔6.3%以至於再生能源的部分不到10%目前的規模大概是這樣子"},{"start":7178.7,"end":7197.185,"text":"在這種情況底下我們在2023年的時候提出了一個10年規劃案就是希望把這個天然氣的發電從20GW提升到47GW結果你提升的結果呢想要透過民間一起合作"},{"start":7198.168,"end":7226.247,"text":"以至於你用一個什麼方法?我擔心你一樣會陷入KPI的思考一樣可能會超車甚至有可能會翻車原因在哪裡?本席慎重的提醒你以前要跟台電簽訂這個購售條合約的時候購售電合約的時候也是所謂的PPA的時候他要五大條件工氣、土地、系統評估、環境核准函、地方政府同意函結果後來他改成什麼?他改成只要前三者後兩者不用"},{"start":7227.188,"end":7255.494,"text":"地方不用同意環評先不用通過但是你就可以先PPA了院長你覺得這合理嗎地方現在最難以接受的說突然之間這個地方要設廠突然之間這個地方要設廠完全不清楚以至於反彈非常的炸當然會怪罪政府以至於現在天然氣發電可能會重蹈太陽能暗場一樣的結果"},{"start":7257.657,"end":7285.196,"text":"本席在這邊跟您說﹖一旦業者簽了這個PPA之後﹖他好像沒有退路﹖沒有退路了﹖因為違約金很高啊﹖他怕臺電又處罰﹖因此呢﹖他只有往前衝﹖以至於衝突不斷在再發生。 院長﹖這種不合理的方式本席強烈要求啊﹖要跟臺電簽PPA不要急躁﹖一定要在五大條件恢復的情況底下才能來簽﹖"},{"start":7286.8,"end":7287.3,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 天然氣發電廠它的設置"},{"start":7302.537,"end":7329.376,"text":"我們有一定的程序跟標準那應該也應該會一定要經過很多的環境影響評估沒有至於說的跟地方溝通不及的部分我們可以檢討在這個作為上如果能夠更加強跟地方的溝通了解來促進這個更可能性的成功我們願意這樣做院長問題是沒有成功本席跟你舉一個例子我手頭拿這一份資料就是堅決反對久違"},{"start":7332.419,"end":7359.04,"text":"設置了連署以前在網路上的連署高達一萬三千多份本席拿到厚厚的這疊也不過是兩千份而已後面還在連署當中這個案子在本席不斷努力的情況底下他已經撤掉了喔撤掉了最近又死灰復燃我們請部長來說明一下死灰復燃了而且還不止九位還多了一個寶村"},{"start":7361.089,"end":7362.49,"text":"報告委員 現在因為很多的產業都想要進駐台南"},{"start":7382.941,"end":7393.505,"text":"所以臺南需要有電的這個 國務部長我知道你的說法 南科旁邊需要電對不對我問一下中科需不需要電 竹科需不需要電竹科中科有天然氣發電廠嗎"},{"start":7395.1,"end":7398.282,"text":"不是 滿足滿足現在南科只有2.3GW而已 我們可以來算清楚"},{"start":7413.189,"end":7425.237,"text":"你現在要發展的是4.6G幹話是現實上提供之外外加plus4.6G幹話南電北送的結果只要解決北電北方北部人不願意設電廠想要設在南部的需求而已啦"},{"start":7426.516,"end":7447.765,"text":"我們現在的科學園區在臺南還會持續的放大持續的增加所以我們在估計未來要滿足這邊的話水跟煙是不足的旁邊還有星達電彩在改組旁邊還有森巴在偵測從一場偵測二場你沒事幹嘛全部都設在這邊"},{"start":7449.281,"end":7477.219,"text":"不是,沒道理啦!這個是我們要把這個...我跟你講,電的部分不需要就電信,就電的配置上面北中南的均衡,部長。都需要有電廠。需要有電廠,那你設在竹科?你為什麼不是設在中科?你為什麼全部都設在南科?我們現在中科都有中科的電廠在...沒道理嘛!沒有沒有沒有!全部都是設在這邊!而且你現在就開快車,開到後來進入冰箱,你後面我給你算一下,"},{"start":7478.2,"end":7497.412,"text":"不論是這一個九威天然發電廠、寶村天然發電廠這幾個加起來啊,差不多是核能發電廠的量耶。 院長,你肺核的結果難道要讓台南人來承擔嗎?這個委員這樣講... 院長麻煩你回去計算清楚好不好?"},{"start":7497.412,"end":7507.099,"text":"委員這樣的講話有點沉重啦齁。我覺得我們雖然... 你是不是不想要講得這麼沉重?除了...除了... 我算出來的數字是如此。我們除了均衡台灣之外,我們也要全島一命。"},{"start":7508.595,"end":7528.275,"text":"桃竹苗有桃竹苗的發電,台中有台中的發電,已經現在都有了,南部的發展,委員,報告委員,南部的發展會越來越快,難道我們不要先做桃竹苗嗎?我沒有說不發電,沒有人說不發電的道理,但是你選址還有配置,你要公平,你要分配清楚嘛。"},{"start":7529.075,"end":7556.463,"text":"明明已經被退掉的場為什麼可以重新再來臺南的自治率臺灣臺南的自給率只有25%臺南的自給率25%能源的部分我跟部長說除了發電之外還有水利還有綠能我跟你說這個負擔的部分最近整個水利通過的整個那個聯外管線在哪裡就在臺南啊"},{"start":7557.202,"end":7581.088,"text":"最近最新增加的廠在哪裡?也在台南啊!最近整個力能鋪設最多、增益最大在哪裡?也在台南啊!因為台南用電就增加非常的多,在未來會增加很多。每一個能源負擔的地方不一樣,你如果要算的話下次大家可以來算清楚。因為我們現在要這個大南方計畫,會用很多電在台南。問題是這個經濟成果也不是台南獨享啦部長!"},{"start":7582.508,"end":7605.695,"text":"我們現在蓋的墊就是希望在臺南能夠滿足進臺南的企業他們的用政所。你先把真正的建設建設出來再說,不要老是引進這些零幣銷運的建設來到臺南。我們不希望看到,只有看到零幣建設,連銀幣建設都沒有看到。那我請問一下部長嘛,人口數增加這麼多,就業人數這麼多,你改善了什麼生活?"},{"start":7607.142,"end":7623.589,"text":"我沒有看到政府改善什麼生活,我就看到政府來發電而已,著重於思考,沒有著重於生活啊。我們生活上面所需要的這個電跟水,那是生活的基本,我說的生活是交通,是住宅,是物價,是其他的生活機能。"},{"start":7624.409,"end":7625.37,"text":"新的企業本來大家誰會不希望有新的企業企業不是很多都有來嗎?"},{"start":7651.999,"end":7663.352,"text":"報告委員 我想委員我們可以跟台南市政府再進行更有效的溝通跟協商。 市政府一直很希望引進更多更多的大廠到南部地區來。 所以委員你要參與這樣的協商過程。"},{"start":7672.221,"end":7683.427,"text":"我完全沒有參與這樣的協商的過程我看到了連居民都完全都不知道每天都有新的電廠來在這邊如果是你的話你會怎麼想沒有一個大建設就是有電廠來你願意嗎我們核准都要環評啦經過環評環評是適合的環評部長"},{"start":7691.33,"end":7706.035,"text":"反平是事後的反平不是事前你現在五大核準條件是你拿到PPA的合約之後你才去爭取所謂的反平跟地方居民的同意以至於現在早明不斷的原因在這邊 院長你要聽進去啊"},{"start":7707.649,"end":7717.352,"text":"這五大條件沒有放水的理由阿!法定的條件當然不容許放水。 折子之後我們必須要依照法定的程序來。 有任何放水不符合法定的條件請委員跟我們一起加強監督。"},{"start":7732.995,"end":7735.598,"text":"我希望能夠事先重演審查,不要想要KPI,KPI的結果之前的太陽能光電就是這樣的結果。"},{"start":7747.142,"end":7763.31,"text":"不要重蹈覆轍我們同意這個委員所指教的這個不是只有Follow這個KPI啦我們會按照法令許可的部分我們來進行我們也會要求這個臺電針對委員所提出的這個問題進行檢討"},{"start":7765.191,"end":7765.951,"text":"報告委員在發展綠能的過程當中"},{"start":7786.658,"end":7812.598,"text":"天然氣來橋接現在的國發電是必要的程序,這是國家的能源政策,我們也在進行第二次能源轉型。 長設下去就不可能是橋接的啦,長設下去可能是永久性的。 我覺得橋接的部分會喬了很久啦。 我覺得國家的能源政策沒有辦法進行第二次能源轉型,這是我們共同的責任。"},{"start":7813.038,"end":7837.932,"text":"我基本上我當然跟你共同的責任阿我是執政黨的議員阿但是也是因為這樣的共同責任我必須要善盡提醒阿我覺得這個是重蹈覆轍嘛你之前的太陽能政策原來是對的阿可是方法是錯的阿我現在跟你討論的是方法不是討論政策目標阿我當然違反你違反政策目標阿我們會按照這個委員的這個指教那台電會深刻的檢討我就請你們好好檢討一下嘛"},{"start":7842.659,"end":7867.776,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝郭委員,謝謝左院長。報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是芬蘭語言高中的同學,我們在此表示歡迎他們的參訪。Thank you for your visit下一位請柯智恩委員質詢"},{"start":7875.732,"end":7878.655,"text":"主席主席我們是不是請卓院長卓院長請備詢客戶員好院長好聽說你明天要在高雄"},{"start":7892.219,"end":7900.263,"text":"今天中午大家比較關切就是要吃一個所謂的和解飯你對這卷和解飯的信心到底有多少你覺得可以解決我們目前預算卡關的問題嗎"},{"start":7918.953,"end":7941.93,"text":"只要對國家未來有信心,我們任何一次的接觸,我們都要深具信心。大家本來都是這樣的期待的,而且我知道你要來當這個閣魁的時候,大家最期望就是你過去是調和鼎瀨的功夫非常的好,可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬,我比較好奇的是你背後的這個賴總統,我說實在的,一般來說根據我們憲法44條規定,當怨跟怨當中有熱和沒有辦法解決,有爭執的時候,"},{"start":7947.074,"end":7959.374,"text":"其實總統應該站出來做一個協調,所以我們只能說到底對這次和解飯當中我們的總統有沒有為你開綠燈,還是他對這次的和解有沒有什麼樣的一個想法?"},{"start":7961.66,"end":7977.957,"text":"總統跟我在憲法的諮詢上的分工是非常清楚明確而且我們也是這樣在進行的那這一次跟韓院長之間是我們那一天我們兩人自己互相的約定我想如果不用動到憲法的層級我們可以在兩院之間來"},{"start":7978.618,"end":7994.02,"text":"我們也期待啦,而且院長你也知道這個問題,癥結其實沒有那麼大啦,彼此各退一步的話,我們就可以好好把這總預算,送到委員會裡面好好來去做,所以我們對於今天的和解,其實不要只是大拜拜,每個人都派出來,然後氣氛氛圍非常的好,但是最具體,"},{"start":7994.861,"end":7995.502,"text":"謝謝委員我也希望在"},{"start":8013.26,"end":8041.053,"text":"法律的原則性問題能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後,我們就能夠順利往後走。我們期待,我們期待,否則話就是無解。好,我們來看看我們這個碳費。現在目前的碳費已經拍板了,大概就是每公噸300元。但是呢,這個不管是經濟部、產業界或是環團,其實都是非常的不滿意的。而且我知道經濟部長是公開表示相當的遺憾。我不知道經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿這個環境部呢,還是對行政院表達深度的遺憾?"},{"start":8042.564,"end":8064.66,"text":"報告委員,我想這個碳費的部分,我們還是,因為企業是我們在照顧的,那環境部他有維護這個整體國家的這個立場。我完全同意,部長我知道,我完全知道產業下那個需求,所以我想問一下這個院長,你們之間到底有沒有溝通過,經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過,感覺起來好像是要在黨內互打的概念,而且我現在要先確定一下,"},{"start":8065.24,"end":8093.405,"text":"大家最關切的是,你會把這個碳費轉嫁到我們這個所謂的消費者的身上,造成所謂的綠色通膨,其實這是大家比較關切的。是的委員,當然經過數次的溝通,兩個部會,跟其他相關部會,跟我本人,我們都參加過相關的。那今天我們訂出來一個標準,經濟部完全叫好,那我覺得環境部那邊就會造成很大的壓力。所以你比較支持經濟部還是比較支持環境部?"},{"start":8094.545,"end":8094.685,"text":"三百塊"},{"start":8115.743,"end":8131.361,"text":"一頓但是你如果有一些優惠自主排碳的話可以50也可以有100我們就這樣算這個range好的如果說是平均來說一頓大概是100塊的話都幾乎要繳到7到8億升到百億的這樣子的碳費那你如何保證這是我們比較關切的"},{"start":8131.821,"end":8155.014,"text":"這些東西到底會不會轉嫁,包括中油,他其實也很想爭取把這個篡費的公式放到他們這樣的一個公式裡面,更不要說台電也想比照這個水費的收費一樣有代收的方法,這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中,所以院長你可不可以保證到目前為止,永續不用再講了,大家都同意世界的趨勢,會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔?"},{"start":8156.104,"end":8176.612,"text":"委員我們常常關心世界永續的問題我們每個人多多少少付出一點的責任是要的一點點的責任到底有多少其實我們還是要來關切一下你看目前為止商桌就做得出一個大的一個非常嚴謹的一個報告他說碳費會帶動中南部的房價我跟你說你現在現場沒辦法買房"},{"start":8178.473,"end":8198.893,"text":"太多人會告訴你這叫碳肺保底的概念因為營建的成本未來會提高最近你看不到可是他告訴你3、5年之後因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會起底所以目前為止已經漲到不行除了台積電效應之外碳肺保底的概念已經變成我們現在買房子裡面大家來說服大家了"},{"start":8199.453,"end":8225.155,"text":"我會明確注意這個事情,產業的發展跟所受的衝擊,部長來答覆。報告委員,我想這一部分經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化,我們大概都有一個小組,不斷地觀察指數的變異,然後我們會有一些方法,那碳稅的部分,碳費的部分,我們跟環境部是在討論,這個是在未來,他現在目前提出這樣100塊,"},{"start":8227.077,"end":8243.974,"text":"我現在只要提醒部長我們希望大家能夠檢探我告訴你這沒有問題但是預期的心理已經產生了所以你看對於這個房市的影響你們村已經對這個新青安的風暴已經可以請很多的大佬來喝咖啡了你這個碳費的部分"},{"start":8244.474,"end":8244.754,"text":"五二零"},{"start":8261.024,"end":8278.417,"text":"但是很顯然的,很多的亂象還是存在的。我想兩位在這邊應該看出來,包括碳的鏈財,告訴你現在有非常多的班,開班授課,告訴大家如何可以通過一套的方法,讓這個企業可以少,甚至不要。還有第二個,很多最重要的是認證的部分。"},{"start":8279.198,"end":8279.218,"text":"三、4、5、6、7、8、9、10"},{"start":8295.287,"end":8296.188,"text":"現在看到沒有?"},{"start":8323.864,"end":8351.304,"text":"報告委員,現在這個因為環境部也是去年才成立,那麼我們現在經濟部我們上來以後我們在不斷的在討論,那我們希望說明年能夠提出來,就像您剛才所指正的,經濟部標準局現在也不斷的在討論這個這樣的一個標準。 是啦,對,部長,我剛才已經特別前提了,環境部是去年才成立的,可是這就告訴打臉我們過去,我們過去8年是民進黨執政,不是你們,但是過去"},{"start":8352.185,"end":8352.205,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":8370.882,"end":8396.556,"text":"你高雄啦,拜託,每天去給我們看一下好不好。但是呢,他安全教育所設在高雄,是在前鎮,但是你知道成立一年多了,院長成立一年多,這很重要喔。但是呢,成立一年多,現在馬上被詐騙集團動用總經理的照片跟資料,而且用AI身為的合成照片裡面,在社群裡面,來販賣廣發金融商品跟投資的訊息,你說對不對?"},{"start":8397.937,"end":8417.068,"text":"委員長,探權交易才成立一年多,很符合現代的潮流,李國雄,我確實知道,行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團,你們的速度要比上詐騙集團,他比你更了解,一年多來,他就已經不斷用這個方法來去做這樣一個處理,所以這個東西是很嚴重的,院長你不覺得嗎?"},{"start":8418.813,"end":8438.713,"text":"詐騙的問題我們一步一步來處理,跟委員報告,我們是去年才通過這個紀後變遷的相關法令,現在環境部在9月份才公佈了三個執法,所以他們一步一步的來處理,並不是說我們過去不作為,是現在到了我們必須面對現在這個環境的作為。 我還是覺得哨率是晚了一些,連連。"},{"start":8440.635,"end":8440.655,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":8460.18,"end":8461.821,"text":"要怎麼分配?"},{"start":8461.821,"end":8479.366,"text":"我說實在的,高雄現在是三高,碳排高、污染高、碳被繳的高,所以我們現在很擔心什麼?費用繳了這麼多,到時候總部都不在我們高雄住在台北,污染給我們吸,然後錢繳到台北,這樣不合理?"},{"start":8480.626,"end":8500.809,"text":"以後這個部分你要怎麼解決?這跟我們得利?報告委員,我們現在針對這個命題,這麼大的一個命題,我們提出一個可以改變的方法。也就是說我進來以後,我提出來一個境外觀內的這樣的一個概念。我們幫助台灣所謂用電、碳排高比較大的產業往外移走。"},{"start":8501.729,"end":8525.24,"text":"對,這個是我們希望透過政府的力量,然後替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。對,因為美國也常說這個部分嘛,你把這個碳費說完之後,你為了要活絡地方的產業經濟,你有一套配套的做法嘛。這是我今天特別要提出來嘛,特別到高雄。你到底,我們繳了這麼多費用,而且你看嘛,這個目前來說,你們也宣布要用三大綠色基金。院長我講實在,我看你的綠色基金,我怕了,你看,100億的綠色成長基金,"},{"start":8528.541,"end":8530.142,"text":"我再說一次,空污高、碳排高、我們碳費繳的也高。 啊,中共這樣不給我們補足多少?你說對這個地方來說,真的是非常非常的嚴重啦!"},{"start":8549.688,"end":8567.198,"text":"委員,我們跟你報告一下,您剛剛所指教的這三個領域,我們都可以再處理。我們會把高雄它原來產生碳高的地方、電高的地方,把它移到其他的地區,讓高雄在原來的地方可以高質化,做一些"},{"start":8568.92,"end":8571.162,"text":"二零二二年竟然比二零二一年的碳排還要增加4.6%拜託"},{"start":8598.78,"end":8613.926,"text":"谷尼,這真的是已經做了這樣的處理了, 碳排還是要增加。 所以說我說實在的,這是不是有辦法透過徵收這個碳費來讓我們環境更加永續。 這個數字會說謊,院長、部長,對吧?"},{"start":8613.926,"end":8621.729,"text":"所以說以價質量、經濟效果, 剛才有把這個碳排的這個大戶就因此要怎麼處置, 這也是個大的課題喔,對吧?"},{"start":8623.63,"end":8650.869,"text":"所以這樣我們更需要來協助、輔導、要求他們能夠...你不要到時候到了2024比2023的碳排又更高...能夠達到的自儲減量的這個產業他才能夠用優惠的...所以我就是告訴你數字嘛用了這些東西到時候你看碳排量還是很高而且像技術又這麼樣發達最後的時間真的很有限啦我確實知道大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛因為郭部長當開始的時候6月你就說你不贊成波普但是你們的行政院發言人馬上幫你講說噢這1000億"},{"start":8652.99,"end":8677.484,"text":"不是跟這個有關,很快就解決這個問題,但是今年我們看到的預算當中還是要再編一千億啊,所以我只能說,你看漲幅12.5%,然後呢台電營收有741,那為什麼還要再補一千億,這大家非常關切,重點是你補了一千億之後,你真的可以保證我們的電價到底可以撐到什麼時候,可以讓我們的民生用電大家都有個安心的一個標準啊。"},{"start":8678.746,"end":8686.178,"text":"報告委員,如果說我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持,然後我們可以改善"},{"start":8688.353,"end":8688.733,"text":"我會要求臺電的這個管理"},{"start":8709.063,"end":8722.996,"text":"能夠精進所以那個院長有要求我兩年以兩年內如果這個台電不能夠正向得了這個補助然後兩年內你還要漲價那可能就是我告別的時候"},{"start":8724.735,"end":8744.627,"text":"你一直告訴我說兩年之內我給你這麼多的錢臺電還沒有所作為還是不斷的要嘛就是給我漲電價要嘛就是補助就是你郭部長下台的時候你就要為臺電下台就對了因為你要為你的政策負責任就對了我們是說我們會共同努力讓兩年後臺電的財務能夠健全那健全的過程當中總有一段要調整期"},{"start":8744.907,"end":8759.58,"text":"現在我們盡量在調整,內外部都要調整。 其實立憲部長都想要讓台電健全啦。 你的補助啦,你的補助對我們的民生物價的這個穩定有非常正向的。 我們當然知道啦,但是你知道台電齁"},{"start":8760.901,"end":8783.307,"text":"還有拿4500萬去做宣傳費用告訴大家臺電是多麼需要大家的補助我講實在的現在花了4500萬在做宣傳啊遠不如好好來處理一下到底整個管理的機制是怎麼樣好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來給關關我們的臺電啊最後一個問題每次帳幅不能超過3%好不好但是現在帳幅嘛不是11就是12.5我覺得你那個3%都是頂多的啦有沒有"},{"start":8785.828,"end":8786.829,"text":"謝謝柯委員、謝謝卓院長。下一位請林楚英委員質詢。"},{"start":8823.135,"end":8826.556,"text":"謝謝主席。 主席有請卓院長。 請卓院長備詢。林委員好。 院長好。 很開心可以在這邊首次來質詢您喔。 我要問的這個問題之前,我想問一個比較輕鬆的。 您在家裡有養寵物嗎?"},{"start":8826.556,"end":8827.396,"text":"以前有。 以前有養過。 你知道現在的科技已經進步到就是有一些這些"},{"start":8852.846,"end":8852.907,"text":"施養這些"},{"start":8854.728,"end":8856.029,"text":"一、二、三、四、零、零、零、零"},{"start":8884.548,"end":8885.709,"text":"我會開這個頭的原因就是因為我要請"},{"start":8914.043,"end":8936.782,"text":"這個院長來看一下螢幕上面這個是在今年的9月5號的時候媒體臥草他通過社群平台所公佈的這個照片當時我第一時間發現之後我就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們的營區外面而且這個影像竟然是你上網你就可以看得到了"},{"start":8937.858,"end":8963.186,"text":"那當時我詢問了國防部之後,國防部告訴我說,哎,委員你誤會了,這其實不是國防部的,其實是在我們的農業部底下的相關監察這個農水路測試的這個鏡頭,可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了,轉向原因不明,但是經過了我們的了解之後,國防部第一時間的回覆是說,他們找到這個營區,而且馬上就把它遮蔽,那麼就避免"},{"start":8963.746,"end":8965.267,"text":"本席在請農業部相關的單位做了解的時候"},{"start":8992.645,"end":9003.887,"text":"整本的完整的報告居然是10月7號才給我但是到底為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得而且可以被媒體直接就擷取"},{"start":9005.257,"end":9031.297,"text":"這到底有沒有解決而且全國還有多少這種處在一個關鍵的重要的軍事要塞那麼原本他可能是在照農田照一般的我們的民眾或是農民所需要的相關的回覆但是他卻照到了軍營照到了重要的基礎的關鍵的我們的重要的國防要塞部長你怎麼來看這個問題院長怎麼來看這個問題"},{"start":9034.196,"end":9058.185,"text":"首先報告謝謝委員這麼重要的一個提醒這是絕對的疏忽我覺得這個應該立即要馬上杜絕所有現在這種現象第二以後要通令所有跟這個攝影攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門要全面的禁止要用這個例子上全面的禁止再來就針對這一件如果是農業部這個水產署是不是水利署"},{"start":9059.966,"end":9070.086,"text":"那我覺得部長要去了解如果在行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話行政的追究我覺得應該必須而且要把它廣泛讓全國各部會通通要了解"},{"start":9070.558,"end":9094.956,"text":"因為我會提這個問題就表示說他是媒體先發現然後我又在媒體上發現那顯然是負責要去監視或者是管理這個器材或是影像的人他完全沒有注意到就像我剛剛開頭所提到的這個設備他可能是透過一個網路一個APP或一個系統來做操作那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了"},{"start":9095.376,"end":9117.326,"text":"又或者是密碼設置的太簡單,因為很容易我們的原始密碼就是8088812345678,那麼這個會不會是整體的包括現在農業部底下,農田署、農水署所有的這樣的鏡頭都也有面臨系統密碼設置不安全,或者是太容易被破解的狀況。"},{"start":9119.911,"end":9140.123,"text":"我跟委員報告就是當事件發生的時候我們做了兩件事情第一件事情我要求他們清查所有的原來在監控水路的、浚路的這些攝影機如果他的周遭有一些敏感的這些區域的話那個攝影機應該立即拆除因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門他們去做內部使用的一個控管"},{"start":9140.603,"end":9169.642,"text":"那第二個部分就是他們整個攝影機本身的後台他是一個內部的網路就是供內部這些漲水工來使用的那後續我也會他們叫他們來根據我們的那個自動安全的一個管理面跟人員的訓練做一個加強我們希望說就算內部的漲水工在使用的時候包括你的帳號密碼或相關的跟資訊安全有關的話一定要確實落實定期的去更換密碼"},{"start":9170.783,"end":9180.313,"text":"不要用最簡單的一個密碼很容易讓人家去使用這個部分我想我們會立刻的已經在要求了然後他們有提一些相關的報告我們再做進一步的處理"},{"start":9181.13,"end":9209.578,"text":"我要提醒的就是即使他照的是農田是有關於灌溉的整體的狀況來做一些防災或是防旱這樣的一個監視但是同樣的我認為這整體的精力一共發了15天而且相關的部會並沒有積極想要處理是因為本席不斷的透過辦公室追蹤然後才追到這樣的一個結果所以我還是希望雖然說農業部面對國安問題可能不是第一線但是"},{"start":9210.518,"end":9233.115,"text":"面對這樣的事情是不可以有任何的怠慢,應該要積極的來面對跟處理好嗎?會,我們一定會這樣做。好,另外一個跟國安議題相關的就是有關於電動,中國的電動車是不是會是木馬屠城的威脅喔?那麼對於台灣來講我們到底有沒有危機意識?我想本席找了這些報導,不論是美國、澳洲或者是英國,"},{"start":9233.755,"end":9233.775,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":9254.19,"end":9279.931,"text":"的網絡去做第三地甚至於境外的一個操控所以這也是為什麼其實現在許多的國家都認為中國的電動車充滿了木馬屠城的危害但是本席發現的就是其實不只是中國的電動汽車或是自用的汽車現在是不是中國製的公車其實也在全台的北中南到處趴趴走那我們知道其實"},{"start":9281.328,"end":9306.567,"text":"大眾捷運系統的部分公車也算是一個關鍵技術所以我要先問一下院長或是部長就是當中國的電動車現在遍佈全台那我們該如何來處理因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定的中國車產的定義就是中國大陸的品牌嘛然後陸資跟國際品牌合資或者是中國的資金跟國際品牌來做合資"},{"start":9307.307,"end":9307.347,"text":"主席"},{"start":9322.329,"end":9322.349,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":9337.406,"end":9355.182,"text":"大眾的關鍵的運輸系統也是關鍵基礎設施的時候那這兩者之間我們到底如何守住國安然後在國內又能夠達到淨零、碳排、電動車的好處那這兩者之間如何取捨 院長"},{"start":9356.503,"end":9383.741,"text":"報告委員我想經濟部在今年7月已經有提出來提升國產化汽車的自治率這樣的一個規範那麼要求國產汽車的自治率門檻要逐年提高那這個比例是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算防止他國的低價產品來傾銷台灣那麼這也是各國的這個政策的趨勢這是第一個第二個呢您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題"},{"start":9384.981,"end":9405.693,"text":"對,那麼這個怕這個車聯網,那我們雖然目前對汽車的這個電腦跟軟體啊,雖然沒有進行這個管制,但是我們有透過在地化比率的來要求,那麼在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件,將如何管制資訊安全呢,整這個規範來控制它。"},{"start":9407.614,"end":9428.866,"text":"所以目前有從中國進來的中華汽車、山陽汽車、福特汽車他們都表示他們的軟體並不會主動聯網而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作所以目前委員所擔心資安這個問題應該是不存在的"},{"start":9429.554,"end":9431.035,"text":"這個我們這個會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬"},{"start":9459.478,"end":9488.504,"text":"然後跟這個委員做一個詳細的報告好因為這個事情他已經存在了我知道已經在各個地方政府上路的公車那麼到底有沒有資安一律也許必須要去重視他你第一時間你說要完全的才剛上路又要他不能走也不太可能但是就像我們講到的這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網有沒有可能成為境外可以操控的所謂木馬塗層器的不定時炸彈因為我們知道"},{"start":9489.164,"end":9491.786,"text":"是,我們馬上回去以後馬上來盤查一下,然後把這個結論來跟委員做報告。"},{"start":9515.299,"end":9538.519,"text":"那麼另外當然就是我們提到的如果歐美各國對於中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候那麼接下來後續呢?我們不能說自用車不能中國電動車中國產的中國車中國品牌不能進來但是中國製的公車的電動車在我們全國的境內跑這會不會是開了另外一扇小門?"},{"start":9543.904,"end":9557.937,"text":"三點跟委員報告第一個燃油車我們要求自治率是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件的產業希望不要受到衝擊那麼在電動車的方面我們是要求的更多是因為他的資安穩定"},{"start":9559.574,"end":9573.538,"text":"甚至它的低價傾銷那這個是現在國際的潮流也針對這個事情來處理的那電動車有兩個已經進來的部分剛剛部長講的我們會加強從內部的管理它的這個物聯網能不能就有效的評斷這個要處理"},{"start":9575.319,"end":9589.984,"text":"再來新要進來的我們會對於電池的要求特別特別的嚴厲因為在世界上闡說太多電池發生燃爆等等不應該的有個安全狀況我們會在這裡做處理這樣處理的話對未來的我們會加嚴來管制已經進來的就部長剛剛說的我們從內部會加嚴來管控"},{"start":9594.585,"end":9618.334,"text":"好謝謝這個院長這麼清晰的一個方向跟說明喔這個對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾藝術系統也放進去這個對於全民的安全是非常重要的最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的也是跟電動車相關那就是當我們有要求就像部長所說的像院長所提的我們有國產車的自治率之後那麼關於車用電腦或者是軟體我們要怎麼樣做規範喔因為"},{"start":9619.855,"end":9647.432,"text":"在這個零組件的部分其實中國還是我們最大的零組件的進口高達了百分之三十二、三十三那麼金額更是到7月累積了兩百三十五點九億元那麼很多時候是車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製必須要有零組件的進口可是如果當整個中國成為我們重要的汽車零組件進口的"},{"start":9648.092,"end":9661.591,"text":"大方向或者是說相關的重要的關鍵技術的時候我們該怎麼辦那麼面對這樣一個狀況喔院長這邊跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法是可以降低對於中國零組件的依賴"},{"start":9663.237,"end":9678.922,"text":"我們現在是有對這些零組件我們要求它漸漸的提高擴廠化的標準那國內的廠商因為這個量的問題所以他們對開這個模具會有一些抗拒"},{"start":9679.682,"end":9695.824,"text":"不過我們現在正式的告訴他們這個就是一個政策希望這個業者能夠同意那最近的溝通的這個結果他們也願意所以這個我想在未來我們這個會從中國進來的這個零組件會越來越少甚至一次零"},{"start":9696.496,"end":9714.023,"text":"好尤其是像電腦或者是聯網相關的系統啊藍牙喇叭等等這個都要非常注意這個會加強雙邊的驗證的關係我們不容許太多資安問題進來那我們也有一些零件去到中國大陸那雙邊一定要在平等的架構底下來互同連交流"},{"start":9714.554,"end":9714.574,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":9745.33,"end":9751.301,"text":"謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長下一位我們請林德福委員質詢"},{"start":9776.018,"end":9776.798,"text":"主席、江戶院長、卓院長、郭部長"},{"start":9803.223,"end":9803.243,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":9824.378,"end":9831.522,"text":"公務出國報告還沒有看到郭部長6月美國出國的報告。 經濟部聯絡人說郭部長的出國報告是密件,對此本席我也沒有打算索取該密件。"},{"start":9851.958,"end":9876.036,"text":"此次希望說經濟部要端出具體招商的一個成果不要只有畫大筆那本席查了一下經濟部投審會7月到9月的新聞稿也沒有看到說來自美國這個新的一個投資那本席再強調一次請問部長何時會有來自美國的新投資呢?"},{"start":9878.033,"end":9895.184,"text":"報告委員,我們大概就是去強化原本在臺灣上一個會期那他們在這個有意願來臺灣的這些廠商,包括這個輝達,包括AMD,包括這個"},{"start":9900.06,"end":9900.14,"text":"那會不會來投資臺灣?"},{"start":9926.465,"end":9945.467,"text":"我們努力我們一定要努力因為他有兩個選項一個他要去馬來西亞一個他要去印度因為他的老闆是印度人所以我們是希望他留在臺灣臺灣的優勢要讓他充分的了解因為臺灣在半導體這個領域裡面"},{"start":9946.749,"end":9947.469,"text":"我希望有一個好的成果"},{"start":9971.042,"end":9981.627,"text":"那個卓院長本席是支持綠能發展風電太陽以及光電都贊成那當初民進黨政府推動離岸風電國產化我這邊念一段經濟部的新聞稿"},{"start":9988.811,"end":10004.251,"text":"經濟部說,我國離岸風電基礎設施尚未完備,而且尚未建構國內本土產業鏈,設置成本相對比較高,故需要明確目標。"},{"start":10007.382,"end":10023.515,"text":"目標量及短購電價來吸引國內外業者來投入才能創造經濟的一個規模。 聽到這邊社會大眾都會把離岸風電短購匯率跟國產化連在一起。 當初經濟部說三招可以把關而且確保風電國產化的罰款然後砍短購匯率"},{"start":10036.909,"end":10055.453,"text":"以及解約。 到了經濟部,郭部長您來主政經濟部上任以後就替風電業者大開方便之門。 只要風電開發商在如期併網完工前提下,國產化問題不受約束。"},{"start":10059.775,"end":10088.158,"text":"臺電8月發電成本資料顯示向民間風力發電業者購電每度高達6.59元等於差不多6.6元那風電業者荷包賺滿滿那政府卻想想辦法來替這些風電業者免除罰款不堪等賭的匯率這難道不是變相圖利嗎那個有什麼看法"},{"start":10089.362,"end":10115.018,"text":"報告委員,風電這個命題是這樣,就是說我們這個在過去確實是如你指證的,有準售價格。那麼也在希望鼓勵這個國產的這個廠商,那麼能夠努力的讓他有競爭力。但是我們在兩個月前,受到這個國外的廠商到歐盟去這個WTO去告我們。"},{"start":10119.06,"end":10126.31,"text":"舉花告我們當初為什麼沒有把他設定好呢你說國產化才會6.59"},{"start":10132.87,"end":10155.61,"text":"對這是以前那現在呢這個不一樣因為已經進步到這個階段所以他們外國的這個廠商啊他們發現說這個國廠化是這個對他們來講這個在交易上面那不然的話為什麼不公開雜標一定要本購本購就是溢價嘛沒有那個是過去對不對過去這個就是有弊端嘛"},{"start":10156.17,"end":10173.349,"text":"對阿我們現在改了我來了以後就改了改了以後就是公開不是他們去講我們就配合那個部長因為這短購是溢價當初阿我認為說公開招標很低兩塊兩毛二但是短購阿"},{"start":10175.049,"end":10183.296,"text":"你說要國產化結果現在又沒有辦法做阿你又幫他開方便之門這個齁講實在話為什麼台電會虧損連年這個不是沒有原因阿"},{"start":10188.319,"end":10211.509,"text":"因為電幾乎到現在你沒有辦法儲存你沒有用的話幾乎都是流掉那流掉結果你看我們冬天有東北季風你不要用那麼多電它一直轉花多少電你要吸收多少夏天需要用大量電的時候結果風氣不轉"},{"start":10214.092,"end":10223.344,"text":"這是裡面當初沒有考量到所以說現在為什麼臺電一直在虧損當中越來越嚴重 郭部長我相信你應該很清楚"},{"start":10224.315,"end":10246.037,"text":"我們現在討論的都是第三期的封店,前面剛才所指正的準購大概就是第一期、第二期。但是我們現在是第三期,我們現在三之一、三之二就是回到自由交易的狀況。"},{"start":10247.54,"end":10266.394,"text":"那因為那三之一在之前就已經開票了那三之二是最近才開的郭部長我跟你講我當初就一直質疑啊這個裡面齁是現在台電董事長叫曾文森由他來主導齁而且你一主導你開放先短夠短夠七成欸欸標20年欸"},{"start":10269.016,"end":10277.353,"text":"他花多少你一定要吸收多少難怪臺電會虧損年年阿對不對結果剩三成三成公開招標"},{"start":10279.307,"end":10295.502,"text":"兩塊兩毛二,但是你賺夠價錢那麼高,溢價七成,剩下三成才做什麼?剩下三成才公開招標,標20年,所以說為什麼台電現在一直在虧損當中?我認為這個問題很大,我們現在因為需要綠電,所以我一定要全力"},{"start":10303.109,"end":10316.117,"text":"讓它能夠如期完工所以我們改變了一些方法希望在這個符合WTO的架構之下然後能夠讓這個豐電的成本能夠幫助他們降低讓他們產出來的價能夠賣給臺灣的業者的時候"},{"start":10320,"end":10320.12,"text":"講實在話啦"},{"start":10344.488,"end":10368.293,"text":"我是聽不下去啦我認為國會議員就是要幫我們民眾發聲為什麼現在電你看漲了12.5%而且又要行政院編列預算年年來補貼台電這個不是沒有原因因你會合然後會合以後你變成說要綠能綠能又跟不上而且價格又那麼高"},{"start":10369.313,"end":10396.107,"text":"當然他有一個效應就變成年年要虧損。臺電以前有這麼嚴重嗎?沒有吧?這個跟委員報告一下,我們也要針對國產化的問題,對國內參與這個綠能發電、風機發電的整個國內的業者表示感謝,他們也確實承擔了相當多的責任。所以我們在建設分作三個部分來講,第一個部分,31的部分我們已經在契約在走,已經是照這樣不變了。"},{"start":10396.927,"end":10426.367,"text":"三、二的因為他現在先到國際上的訴訟會增加了一些條件或增加了一些要求那國內的業者也希望能夠儘速的達到這樣的過程但是如果說因為國內業者接不上來所以在時針上有延誤的話那我們可以做一些調整但我們還是鼓勵國內業者能夠上來第三期我們除了讓大家可以公平交易之外我們更希望國內業者往外走剛剛部長講的增加國際競爭力去國外發展因為國內的市場到底有限"},{"start":10426.707,"end":10433.609,"text":"主委因為自2023年到現在政府已經編列給台電增資2500億元。 議後條例撥補500億再加上在立法院即將要審查2000億的撥補總計台電增資以及撥補的累積金額達到5000億。"},{"start":10450.192,"end":10476.158,"text":"能源政策不檢討臺電虧損最後還是全民買單大家清清楚楚的電價的問題本期支持以核養綠那民進黨政府不要抱著緩和意識形態的神主牌綠能比例沒有達標也不願意以核養綠來拼命的燒煤燃氣還有火力發電等就佔了八成"},{"start":10477.499,"end":10495.112,"text":"根據臺電給本席的資料2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度是3.62元合能每度是1.39元3.62跟1.39你看落差多大如果2023年臺電合能發電量跟2015年一樣是351億度則天然氣發電則可以少"},{"start":10505.479,"end":10505.979,"text":"主委長你有什麼看法?第一個會員報告"},{"start":10528.911,"end":10541.49,"text":"走向非核家園這個入法是在委員任內之前在通過的這是我們的法律這不是民進黨的神主牌電影法裡面就這樣寫的要朝向非核家園這是法律不是神主牌"},{"start":10542.818,"end":10567.012,"text":"但是現在我們立法院很多不管在朝在野﹖但是法律現在還是在的﹖這部法律現在還是在的﹖還在﹖對﹖可以改啊﹖可以修啊﹖你們要提出來啊﹖對不對﹖你不能說錯誤的政策﹖現在核電是綠能了呢﹖在修法﹖是不是修法之前我們現在就是多元的發展綠能﹖希望能夠進行這個科技的儲能﹖"},{"start":10568.947,"end":10569.808,"text":"二次能源轉型當中重要的目標"},{"start":10587.078,"end":10587.718,"text":"一、三、九元﹚"},{"start":10606.644,"end":10607.024,"text":"那個 卓院長"},{"start":10627.045,"end":10647.936,"text":"媒體報導英國在9月30日宣布七大工業國組織的先例成為第一個終止南梅發電的國家,我們南梅占50%。因應2050年近年排汰的目標,世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的人員,包括核電在內,國際認可核能為綠電,"},{"start":10651.619,"end":10669.478,"text":"國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少排碳的放出來此外美國在20多個國家共同發表《核能宣言》共同努力2050年全球核能容量增加為三倍的目標"},{"start":10671.858,"end":10681.222,"text":"每日韓都大舉發展核電,難道民進黨政府的人員政策不需要做通牌性檢討嗎?現在我們目前優先幫臺灣出口的廠商爭取綠電,因為現在核能還不是屬於綠電,它是一個clean energy,它是一個乾淨的能源。"},{"start":10696.567,"end":10704.393,"text":"那我們現在先滿足這個綠電的需求然後再來就趕快的來滿足2050年的零碳這兩個都是不同時間的重點謝謝林委員謝謝卓院長下一位我們請嚴寬恆委員質詢"},{"start":10733.734,"end":10747.298,"text":"立法院江副院長大會主席我們各位列席官員主席有請行政院我們左院長請左院長列席委員好 院長好左院長"},{"start":10762.678,"end":10787.443,"text":"現在因為受到極端氣候不只是颱風包括我們全台各地經常性的突發性豪雨瞬間一樣都會造成淹水釀災尤其是本席的選區在台中的海縣旁邊緊鄰的就是台中盆地的大都山台地如果剛好遇到海水漲潮"},{"start":10788.263,"end":10788.463,"text":"臨時提案委員："},{"start":10806.36,"end":10828.311,"text":"本席在這邊要先感謝中央跟市府過去共同的努力,讓這個南山解水溝一期、二期能夠順利的完工。大渡山溪路沿著海線地區因為地勢低窪,排水不易,過去曾經嚴重的淹水,在中央跟地方政府的通力合作下,一期、二期的工程總長度6.5公里,經費"},{"start":10832.779,"end":10857.79,"text":"分別是26億跟24億那現今主要河道已經完成中央補助的部分第一期補助21億那第二期補助14億但是工程不能虎頭蛇尾因為南山節水溝它的完整性是足以影響整個台中市一個中部地區的這個出海口"},{"start":10858.598,"end":10877.268,"text":"海鮮淹水,市區必定會淹大水。 海水系統做得好,絕對是防災的第一基礎。 那尤其我們10月2號、3號、4號經歷了山陀和颱風的一個嚴重的肆虐。 那我想南山解水溝第三期工程"},{"start":10878.783,"end":10906.497,"text":"在上游部分要開闢北四溪及竹林北溪段,總整治的長度2.9公里,那初估經費需要達65億,那現在剛好是汛期,每年的5月到11月這7個月的時間是臺灣雨量最豐沛的時候,加上梅雨台風季節,所以本席在這邊要請教院長,針對這個第三期工程65億,包括土地"},{"start":10907.304,"end":10907.424,"text":"主席"},{"start":10914.997,"end":10941.241,"text":"院長是不是能夠協助用特別補助款來協助請水利組這邊也多分攤一些經費首先謝謝委員剛剛說明在去年完成的第1、2期已經有效改善降低了淹水的風險那第三期現在工程還在進行延長當中但是裡面遭受到一些阻力跟障礙這個部長非常清楚我請部長來說什麼阻力報告委員"},{"start":10941.721,"end":10962.142,"text":"第三期的工程,因為這個山坡地是比較高層的因素,所以這個需要深挖,要設計用這個相衡的方式,剛好經過民房的下方,所以遭到這個地方強烈的抗議。"},{"start":10963.984,"end":10992.908,"text":"我們已經請這個臺中市政府持續的評估執行效益或者替代方案或者替代方案所以現在應該不是委員你指教的這個預算的問題而是那個通過的問題不是這個路線已經經過無數次的討論那現在就是說我們上游是在薩路地區從這個清泉崗機場一直銜接到這個中火所以這個部分"},{"start":10993.484,"end":11012.025,"text":"需要經過的沿線這些居民我們也經過多次的協商還有這個公開這個說明會、公聽會等等那現在居民反倒是我們現在我們的市民認為說如果第三期工程沒有加速進行未來遭受到了這樣子的一個這個天災或者是強降雨"},{"start":11012.352,"end":11013.152,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":11029.941,"end":11031.542,"text":"經濟部將持續跟台中市政府"},{"start":11048.672,"end":11049.734,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":11064.675,"end":11066.496,"text":"應該不是預算的問題,而是那個路線的問題,要不要改。"},{"start":11090.707,"end":11093.269,"text":"現在就是市政府不敢提為什麼因為這是預算的問題"},{"start":11118.482,"end":11119.243,"text":"臺中市防洪治水核道"},{"start":11138.717,"end":11157.482,"text":"主要的這個南山解鎖溝把它完成,請院長在這邊答應我好不好。那布裡面也要看地方提出來的計畫是不完整需求是不是急迫,那是不是要積極來處理,一定要這個計畫我們才能再做,不是說這裡答應就可以做,如果說這個地方的需求強烈而急迫,而且"},{"start":11158.302,"end":11158.422,"text":"臨時提案委員："},{"start":11176.402,"end":11200.957,"text":"這些預算都往南部或者是其他受創地方 那我們中部地區是望梅止渴我們希望說真的要做預先的防範更加重要我們不是在比較我們只是希望說你把原來的預先的這些治水防範把它做好那它未來就可能免於遭受到這樣的一個危害所以在這邊提出說那這樣子預算對我們行政院來講不是一個太大的困難"},{"start":11201.577,"end":11214.853,"text":"所以我們明年編了551億,裡面很多是系統性的治水的工程的這個預算。當然啦當然啦,因為我們區域內很多的系統治水都要做。通過之後我們就能照計畫的優先順序跟它的緊迫性,我們就逐一來編。"},{"start":11215.56,"end":11243.872,"text":"跟委員報告,絕對沒有地域的分別,也不會特別照顧哪些地方,全國都是一樣的。所以我們這是為我們台中市民請命,因為整個台中市的一個出來口,那如果說造成日後,我們是為這個防範於未來,不希望它發生一個重大的危害,好,院長。我們的目的是一樣的。對對對對,好,那我想再請教,院長,部長,你們有沒有聽過北風與太陽的故事,一手一眼?"},{"start":11245.396,"end":11270.957,"text":"是穿外套的事情小學三年級的國語課本裡面寫的故事的內容就是說北風跟太陽他們兩個就是說要進行一場比賽決定誰的能力比較強那北風就開始對這些路上的行人就是他們的比賽就是說要把行人的外套大衣把它吹掉把它拿掉但是北風他就用他強勁的這個北風來"},{"start":11274.728,"end":11293.617,"text":"他越用力吹但是路上的行人就是把衣服越拉得更緊因為越冷就穿得更緊但是反觀太陽他用他溫暖的陽光照射在人民的身上那陽光越是越強烈他會覺得炎熱反倒是這樣子他把外套給脫掉那這個故事就是說"},{"start":11294.639,"end":11312.595,"text":"要告訴我們就是說,與其全力的控制對方,不如放手,讓對方心悅誠服,讓他心有口紅啦。所以說,當然因為現在錯誤的政策,那就像北風跟太陽一樣,你過度的吹捧這種太陽能光電,還有這個風電,"},{"start":11315.838,"end":11342.468,"text":"吉利的去排斥同樣是綠電的核能發電本席認為這兩個故事很像越加的干預就會造成更多的問題那我想經濟部長、部長、郭部長你也提過就是說核能是乾淨的能源那世界各國也公認核電是綠電那台灣缺電是不爭的事實尤其缺綠電對不對剛剛你也提到台灣缺的是綠電"},{"start":11344.005,"end":11350.97,"text":"臺灣海峽臺灣海峽是一個非常好的風場但是離岸風電卻改變了整個漁場那請教院長你知道全臺灣最大的離岸風機基地在哪裡嗎離岸風機在彰化臺中臺中還是彰化"},{"start":11374.212,"end":11395.178,"text":"我講沿海地區髒冰,這個都很… 風場是在髒化,沒有錯,台中髒化,但是這個風機的基地是在台中港,在台中港。所以報告委員,我們不論是,我們發展綠能齁,北風跟太陽都需要,風吹動這個風機啊,太陽照亮這個電板,所以都需要,都需要。 對嘛,所以我們什麼電都要,尤其是綠電,對不對。"},{"start":11396.218,"end":11410.139,"text":"我跟這個委員報告一下就是現在要求綠電最大是美國的這個MicrosoftMicrosoft他不同意這個核電是綠電他只認為他是一個乾淨的能源"},{"start":11411.209,"end":11435.565,"text":"所以我們現在因為出口很多的這個公司啊,他是給Microsoft的這個市場。那一樣的道理,以現在台灣的綠電是不是2025、2026都已經被台積電買掉了?對不對?其他的護國大山也買不到這樣子的綠電啊?我們現在跟委員報告,我們現在就是趕快讓這個太陽能光電跟風力還有小水力發電,讓他趕快上來。"},{"start":11436.926,"end":11464.661,"text":"上來的時候我們希望到2030年能夠滿足這個30%是綠電這樣子的一個市場需求所以我認為這個目前我們先把這個綠電的這個問題先解決然後馬上解決這個碳因為2050年也迫在眉睫所以我們要解決這個零碳所以剛才您所指導的這個我們都會放在這個思考的這個範疇之內"},{"start":11466.042,"end":11489.691,"text":"部長媒體報導就是說9月23號約見這個開發商那釋出只要如期並往國產化可鬆綁的訊息那被業者稱為923之亂那部長在9月11號回應這個國產化限制已經8年差不多了那會朝開放的方向來進行所以現在這些"},{"start":11491.351,"end":11517.426,"text":"尤其是CIP總裁他說臺灣GDP是被許多護國大山傳產資產產業撐起都需要大宗綠電但是2025、2026的綠電都賣給了台積電臺灣不缺電但缺綠電那更媒體也說風電國產化還能走下去嗎那針對這一批評跟這一些我想請教"},{"start":11518.257,"end":11538.926,"text":"他們都致函給經濟部陳情認為說這個朔旗既往的變更違反信賴保護原則那我現在給你時間不多啦那可不可以稍微講一下解釋一下部長是 報告委員這個信賴保護原則就是政府一貫這個施政的這個基本原則不是我不是要問這個我要問說你要如何去因應後續"},{"start":11540.63,"end":11558.537,"text":"因為我現在的目的是這樣子,就是說我到2028年是不會缺綠電,所以過去delay的這個風電,我要讓他speed up,讓他快速起來,所以我們現在是幫助這個國產的公司告訴他們你有沒有什麼"},{"start":11559.517,"end":11587.749,"text":"需要經濟部協助的讓他可以成本降低的那麼可以這個滿足這些開發商在這個時間裡面能夠同時能夠這個掛網所以我想這個剛開始這個三之一的這些廠商他們擔心說啊這個國產化取消沒有取消他我們是幫助他們能夠降低成本我們希望讓風電的成本能夠繼續往下向"},{"start":11589.33,"end":11589.43,"text":"主席"},{"start":11605.575,"end":11634.102,"text":"偏偏輕易的鬆綁已經公告了政策,然後呢﹖對於相信政府而陸續投入數十億上百億的這些國內的廠商,請而以堪﹖不是,我們現在沒有說取消,八年前的離岸封建的這個政策是否不再延續,所以要你說清楚的是這個部分。 委員,我在這裡跟你報告,就是說三之一,我們就是維持什麼樣的規範,什麼樣的契約,就是按照契約照走。"},{"start":11635.171,"end":11652.437,"text":"三之一就這樣,三之二通案還是按照規範,那如果他有需要我們協助的,我們來幫助他,來解決他的問題。我們並沒有說這個地方開放國產化,因為只有三之三我們講說這個會朝國產化開放的這個方向來努力。"},{"start":11675.352,"end":11691.821,"text":"好,謝謝言委員。剛剛言委員提到關於臺中市南山節水溝的這部分,他的意思應該是臺中市政委一定會提出計畫,到時候請行政院能夠優先協助。好,謝謝言委員,謝謝卓院長。"},{"start":11693.876,"end":11711.71,"text":"報告院會現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是臺北市東山高中的同學我們在此歡迎你們的到訪謝謝報告院會上午的質詢到此為止下午2點30分我們繼續開會進行經濟組織質詢現在休息"},{"start":20090.879,"end":20093.251,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20453.174,"end":20456.798,"text":"你好,是,你好,我們2點半準時開會,那就請委員2點20來議場這邊,謝謝,掰掰。喂?喔,好好,OK,好。"},{"start":21603.939,"end":21604.7,"text":"現在我們繼續開會進行經濟組織質詢。接下來請李燕秀委員質詢。麻煩請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":21633.324,"end":21653.761,"text":"禮委員好院長好,我剛剛看你緩慢的走進來,固態滿山的樣子。我還是要跟您講,無論是韓院長或者是你,或者三黨的黨團總召都辛苦了。剛剛中午的朝野和解飯吃的結果是在您的預料當中嗎?"},{"start":21656.043,"end":21682.334,"text":"謝謝委員,我剛剛沒有步履蠻山,我還是非常的輕快的走進來。好,輕快的走進來。那這個結果是您預料當中的嗎?沒有,這個是一個營養午餐。營養午餐,那結果呢?全台灣的民眾要看的是結果。結果就是我們從一個好的方向開始,然後走向另外一個新啟動,希望能夠啟動新的一個草野協商的過程。"},{"start":21683.323,"end":21697.021,"text":"朝野協商的過程,那有共識的地方在哪裡?我從媒體上看到說我還沒有機會問韓院長,我也沒有機會問我們總召。 共識就是繼續去從協商中得到大家已經多增加對彼此了解之後,"},{"start":21698.726,"end":21722.062,"text":"院長,我相信你從政的資歷這麼久,你不會不清楚,協商就是大家有機會達成某一些的共識跟結果。可能協商的結果不是每一個人都滿意,但是最起碼可以讓我們現在政治的僵局,預算沒辦法付為的僵局,有機會達到某一些共識可以往下走。"},{"start":21722.682,"end":21722.702,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":21747.124,"end":21767.74,"text":"賴總統的院紀協調的部分他好像不願意召開那或者是請求另外一方你再拜託賴總統來開院紀協調有沒有這個可能性總統有從憲法賦予總統的權限他自然會去處理但我認為本件在大院跟行政院之間就總預算的問題"},{"start":21770.011,"end":21788.85,"text":"我跟韓院長之間來拜託三個黨團繼續往一個大家都能夠理解的方向去走。怎麼繼續?我剛剛看的結果這個參會是破局,大家沒有共識。我們都希望預算趕快復為。委員你在議會在立法院很久,沒有一件事情是剛剛才談過現在馬上有結果。"},{"start":21790.231,"end":21809.749,"text":"對啦,但是你們很急嘛,我現在也在替你著急嘛,我現在也替你著急,所以但是要把那個大家想辦法要有共識的點,對起碼要大家可以聚焦來談嘛,但是現在好像沒有辦法,所以我才請教您說,院長。 充分了解雙方的立場,雖然我知道"},{"start":21810.45,"end":21837.213,"text":"很多先進委員也講過好幾次我也在這個地方表達過很多次原則性的問題但是能夠這樣子面對面的沒有時間的限制在比較輕鬆的狀況之下來交談所以要繼續開就對了你們要繼續 非常寶貴的經驗我想從這個經驗就可以繼續往下發展但是重點還是要預算要有機會 共識桌要復違啊因為你們也急著要是你們急著要審預算啊委員您不急嗎"},{"start":21838.247,"end":21844.449,"text":"國人更急,國家更急。院長,我覺得,我不知道賴總統有沒有跟你討論這件事情。我覺得要有共識也不困難,國民黨團有授權給總召跟書記長,在某一些程度底下大家是可以溝通的。所以我剛才才請教院長,"},{"start":21863.633,"end":21884.858,"text":"因為可能請總統出來,因為我不認為進法補償條例,大家再多編列一點,或者用其他追加緊預算,怎麼樣處理,大家不能夠解決。我覺得這都不是很大一筆什麼樣的數字。所以說我覺得大家就那些問題,其實不是說不能抽腿,我們在預算,在議會,你也當過市議員,你也當過立法委員,"},{"start":21887.159,"end":21902.441,"text":"我覺得不是說零和遊戲,就是有辦法可以去溝通,但是如果每一個人都硬幫幫那一塊的話,那就走不下去。所以我剛剛才問你說,我覺得如果去吃這場參會,你沒有一些籌碼,你沒有一些授權,"},{"start":21904.229,"end":21930.405,"text":"那我覺得就很難談得下去,但我也會覺得說,院長你做得很辛苦很可憐,因為如果你沒有被授權,然後總統又不給你這個院計調節的可能性,那你又不能完全不能退,或用後面追加減預算的再來去做補償措施的話,那這個預算怎麼走得下去,這個是我覺得院長你很辛苦的地方。"},{"start":21930.919,"end":21958.781,"text":"我原因多慮了我跟總統報告過我跟韓院長相約這件事情跟黨團見面總統也在各方得到這樣的訊息他對我的講法就成如昨天總統在國慶大會上的講法一樣他很高興看到韓院長跟我能夠對朝野這個和解的方式就是協商的過程繼續去做努力他很高興看到這一點這就是總統唯一而且是最重要的態度"},{"start":21959.341,"end":21982.989,"text":"有談,院長我要提醒你啦,有談要有結果,因為大家要看的是一個結果論。 我不認為在野黨都是硬梆梆的一塊,我們也了解…… 我也不是硬梆梆的一塊。對啊,所以嘛,所以我本來以為有機會至少要達到一點共識。 不要在這一刻都急著要我說出什麼話來,因為剛剛跟韓院長的講話,很多,我們還要再做很多的努力。"},{"start":21983.629,"end":22001.001,"text":"我尊重我尊重我希望我希望有好的結果那但是我不希望這個院長你被卡在上不上下不下又沒有被總統授權然後他又不願意幫你開院去協調然後你又沒有任何籌碼可以來跟在野黨我說我不能說籌碼我應該說在預算上後面違法編列的部分怎麼樣做補救措施"},{"start":22007.705,"end":22008.707,"text":"但是無論如何快樂的人看到希望,憂慮多的人會看到遺憾。"},{"start":22019.169,"end":22037.25,"text":"我當然希望看到院長,因為你不是一個不能溝通的院長,但是我希望提出來的方向是可以解決的方案,大家可以走得下去。因為今天是經濟委員會的質詢,我還是要請問一下有關於我們的能源政策的問題。"},{"start":22038.711,"end":22061.698,"text":"能源政策對國家來說實在太重要了。 院長你看到包括在今年6月5號的時候當時國部長提到未來可以在上個會期未來對於能源配比的調整還有一定的目標跟方向。 經濟部能源署也說未來10年每一年至少成長率用電的需求會成長2.8%到3%。"},{"start":22064.039,"end":22064.059,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":22080.612,"end":22105.526,"text":"媒體也在講,包括我今天早上也有看到部長你也回答柯正委員說,如果對於台電的補貼到位,但是我們仍舊在漲電,電價還是不斷地漲,就是你離開的時候。部長我先請教你,你講這句話,呃,代表你覺得這個位置坐起來你是有點倦情嗎?還是很委屈?我早上已經請部長不讓再講這種話了。"},{"start":22108.711,"end":22110.078,"text":"院長 我再請教部長"},{"start":22113.097,"end":22140.646,"text":"副部長你直接回答你不要你不要去管院長講什麼其實我覺得這這這這件事情其實就就是在你整個在很多議題的想法特別能源政策上您來自民間企業產業界我相信總統看到您的在產業界的能力找您進來所以做該做的事說該說的話所以第一時間您提到說臺電未來不再撥補要想辦法自己賺錢自負盈虧這個是一個產業界的說法"},{"start":22141.846,"end":22158.197,"text":"我來跟委員報告,我的意思是說這2000億的撥補主要是調整臺電的財務情況。那麼在未來的電價的決定,漲不漲當然不是我來決定,漲不漲價是由電價委員會來決定的。但是我必須要創造一個,是電價審議委員會決定的。"},{"start":22168.223,"end":22171.327,"text":"您從能源政策 這一連串進來做部長這個位置 從能源政策開始"},{"start":22184.152,"end":22211.153,"text":"媒體在批評說如果經濟不窮的只剩下漲價跟補助這兩件事情而沒有去思考到整個上層發電結構是不是合理因為電價成本跟我們能源政策的配比很重要燃氣很貴但你現在民進黨要非核家園然後火力發電又在燒廢用愛發電用廢發電所以我們能源配比的政策到底要不要調整你有沒有想法"},{"start":22213.535,"end":22228.669,"text":"我們的能源政策當然我們現在 能源配比 能源配比 蔡英文有50%、30%、20%賴政府在你底下 你的能源政策 院長你有沒有想法 沒有 還是蔡規賴誰"},{"start":22231.57,"end":22231.59,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":22246.664,"end":22247.025,"text":"主席"},{"start":22261.561,"end":22264.964,"text":"我們現在新的這個能源的配比是延續這個蔡總統的能源政策然後我們稍微做一個修正我們現在先把煤"},{"start":22285.996,"end":22312.431,"text":"讓他能夠降為零這個是我們的一個作為所以我們要用綠電來補重點是說你現在的再生能源齁今年直到10嘛我看最後一個表有一個直到10嘛顯然是跳票的不過因為蔡英文跳票因為他已經不在這個位置上那我們現在的20人就是跳票那怎麼辦呢我跟委員報告這個他"},{"start":22314.96,"end":22324.552,"text":"本來是2025年可以達到20%但是因為這個俄烏戰爭的原因所以讓它是要delay那我們會在2026年的11月達成這個標但是我的目標還是在2030年"},{"start":22332.421,"end":22348.912,"text":"二〇三〇年的時候我們讓綠電能夠滿足臺灣的氣味能夠的需求我現在看到你所有的用電規劃都是到二〇三〇年你曾經也是說目前所有的布局都是到二〇三〇年院長卓院長"},{"start":22350.575,"end":22375.327,"text":"那總統應該有想要爭取下一屆連任,下一屆連任2028也是,下一屆總統是2028做到2032嘛,所以我就覺得很奇怪,能源政策、能源配比、供電、國際產業要留住AI產業這些大公司,你絕對不是說我的佈局到2030年就夠了,這個對國家經濟政策來說是重要的,不論是下一屆總統是誰,繼續是賴總統或者是其他人,"},{"start":22378.689,"end":22398.656,"text":"我覺得用電都不會是佈局到2030所以絕對不是2030之後不干我的事蔡英文可以這麼說但是我相信賴總統跟左院長您不會這麼說所以這個佈局的說法是很奇怪的我最近看到包括Google在馬來西亞也設置花了20億設置場然後台積電也到美國花了650億美金也設置場就是說我覺得一個成熟的產業"},{"start":22406.238,"end":22423.377,"text":"他要看的是10年20年30年他把公司花上百億投資在這個地方他是有長遠性的所以你們講2030年布局到2030年這件事情是外界完全沒有辦法接受的所以你身為一個產業界來的部長你講布局到2030年"},{"start":22424.949,"end":22435.373,"text":"我覺得這件事情是讓外界、產業界想說臺灣的經濟博弈怎麼會這樣?那總理長你能接受這樣的說法嗎?我們現在佈局只到2030年嗎?美國商會跟歐洲商會可以接受你這樣的說法嗎?我們是在講綠電"},{"start":22447.338,"end":22463.939,"text":"二零三零年,所以我們才用二零三年是一個目標,二零五零年也是一個目標,所以我們是分段設置目標在裡面。 議長,你的說法我在媒體上都可以看得到,但是我都需要提醒你們,二零三零年之後,"},{"start":22465.22,"end":22492.835,"text":"你們現在都只保證2030年之前都不缺電至少2030年2030年之後的電怎麼樣拿出來給大家看說服產業界說服臺灣的我們都有計畫因為蓋一個電廠要6年好那我繼續再問蓋一個電廠要6年好那我就要問院長因為我剩下51秒我時間真的剩下不多院長很多事情要做最壞的打算但是也要做最好的準備"},{"start":22493.815,"end":22495.696,"text":"我了解委員的想法我了解,我跟委員報告兩件事情"},{"start":22516.824,"end":22518.485,"text":"二、三、未來會不會是一個備用的選項,現在就要開始討論。"},{"start":22554.072,"end":22556.274,"text":"謝謝李燕燮委員質詢,也謝謝我們左院長和相關部會所長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第7號,邱義營委員質詢。"},{"start":22583.39,"end":22589.454,"text":"謝謝主席,我是不是請一下卓院長?麻煩再請卓院長備詢。是,邱委員好。院長好。院長,這個剛剛的午餐吃得怎麼樣?中午有沒有吃飽?根據"},{"start":22605.305,"end":22620.154,"text":"科總召、副總召跟黃國昌總召他們都好像認為這個是第一次由韓院長跟我兩位一起跟各黨團的三長一起共餐共同討論事情我們的氣氛"},{"start":22621.215,"end":22647.833,"text":"是相當的不錯的,但是時間還是有限,因為我趕著回來陪各位委員打巡,所以時間是有限的。其實我覺得啦,如果有韓院長在的話,那個氣氛肯定都是會非常好啦。是不是您覺得時間上有一點短,因為要趕回來被巡,心裡總是有壓力,是不是這樣?當然這個午餐的時間就是這個樣子。剛剛我看了這個午餐結束之後,馬上媒體就有一些轉述,有一些報導。"},{"start":22649.7,"end":22666.742,"text":"包括黃國昌委員說,非常遺憾這一頓飯破局,行政院沒有提出任何解方。傅坤祺委員說,非常遺憾,行政院不尊重立法院,所以沒提出任何解方。但是您說,午餐氣氛和樂。"},{"start":22668.358,"end":22685.194,"text":"氣氛非常的好那您剛剛講到了兩句話我覺得非常的有趣你說快樂的人會看到希望憂慮的人會看到遺憾所以你是一個快樂的人你看到了這一頓飯之後行政立法之間有了進一步"},{"start":22685.954,"end":22701.827,"text":"在溝通進一步,不管是想和解也好,或者是大家進一步溝通的希望可是呢,國民黨跟民眾黨的總召說遺憾,他們兩個看不到希望。 院長您個人是這樣覺得嗎?"},{"start":22703.339,"end":22729.025,"text":"我不僅快樂要看到希望,我更希望我跟韓院長努力讓國人快樂,讓國人都看得到希望。那兩院之間就是要這樣互動,在一次的參訊當中不可能把細節問題像菜單一樣列出來這樣談。因為這個是一個參訊,它不是一個正式的協商嘛,所以你不可能在裡面去談到說你要怎麼樣做,你要怎麼樣協商,到時候會不會又有人出來咆嘯說這是密室,因為沒有公開直播。"},{"start":22730.492,"end":22745.778,"text":"所以未來我希望就是能夠在這樣的氣氛底下﹐把一些該處理的事情﹐在大院裡面草引進行協商﹐盡快的集中協商。 那行政會會認為我們會很樂意在這個協商過程中﹐扮演行政院該有的角色。"},{"start":22746.158,"end":22773.717,"text":"韓院長我可不可以白話一點解釋你們中午的午餐就是說有一個推動的大方向大家有一個這樣的共識未來這個總預算該怎麼復違該怎麼樣去做一些調整大家內心有一個想法但是細節的部分真正落實的部分是不是還要留待韓院長來召集協商大家正式坐下來在協商的時候談"},{"start":22774.517,"end":22790.768,"text":"是不是我如果白話去解釋你們中午的午餐是不是可以這樣子在屬於我可以答覆的50%我認為完全正確但是我也認為不宜這個事情就丟給還院長也不宜這個樣子這需要大家共同來談所以行政院願意扮演"},{"start":22792.263,"end":22814.491,"text":"更重要更主要的角色來談這個事,但是談要由朝野黨團來談我覺得在立法院裡頭還是應該要保持一個快樂的心啦,如果每天在這裡像怒目金剛一樣每天在這裡一直不斷的咆哮那吃個快樂的飯,你們大家都覺得這餐飯吃得很快樂可是有人就說我不吃午餐,我都是不吃午餐的,那不知道去幹嘛呢?"},{"start":22814.491,"end":22815.792,"text":"不在現場你們知道那麼多"},{"start":22818.239,"end":22836.594,"text":"這個也是不能在這裡講的公開秘密。 剛剛午餐的部分我就問到這裡。我接下來問這個大概是比較嚴肅的議題。 院長你大概知道我們高雄才剛剛經歷了這個山陀而颱風的肆虐。 給您看一下山陀而之後"},{"start":22838.444,"end":22862.273,"text":"的高雄的狀況十七疾風對高雄帶來重大的損失這個是在大寮的河堤路上您看到所有的電線桿斷裂樹全部倒塌那台電的工程工程人員本來說從台中以南的工程人員全部調到高雄來後來到了第二天發現"},{"start":22863.573,"end":22890.83,"text":"沒辦法所以是全臺灣都調到高雄來所以我要必須再一次感謝所有臺電上上下下的員工您可以看到這個電線桿斷成這樣所以大巴工業區和巴產業園區經歷了大寮林園經歷了大概三天以上的停電對居民來講是苦不堪言這件事情讓我們開始嚴正的思考兩個部分"},{"start":22891.823,"end":22915.828,"text":"一個是電感地下化到底要不要進行這個還是讓您看一下啦齁三天之後臺電的員工可以把剛剛殘破不堪的道路把它整成這樣我真的太佩服臺電的同仁的工作效率我必須再講一次我也希望部長能夠對於我們臺電的同仁多加慰勉齁"},{"start":22918.101,"end":22934.687,"text":"來 院長讓您看一下平和公路全線地下化這個是在蘇貞昌當院長的時候去做的原因就是要大幅降低遇到風災的時候大規模的停電那有沒有達成效果呢我讓您看一下"},{"start":22935.627,"end":22958.672,"text":"這是這一次山陀而颱風在高雄市區造成了超過10萬戶以上的停電但是您可以看到平和公路因為地下化了之後平和公路只有零星的停電事故並沒有大規模的停電所以院長想跟您進一步討論"},{"start":22960.345,"end":22984.54,"text":"其實行政院包括台電有編列相關的預算這個是在2017年到2019年我們有這個所謂強化配電陷入防災任性計畫當時投入了70億元做了這些事情總共大概做了有463.64公里沒有實際大概做了將近500公里的長度"},{"start":22986.107,"end":23000.336,"text":"明年度我們的預算,其實這是持續性的計畫,所以還是有裂案。 我不知道經濟部在這個配電線路的地下化工程裡頭,編列了多少預算?"},{"start":23000.336,"end":23002.337,"text":"你們打算怎麼做?"},{"start":23002.337,"end":23012.504,"text":"這一次在沿海地區受創嚴重,有沒有思考過把沿海地區的這一些電線桿全部地下化?"},{"start":23013.302,"end":23013.442,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":23045.082,"end":23066.707,"text":"平和公路,上禮拜六到屏東去的時候,確實經過那段路,正如委員所說的,它並不會造成很大的災害,所以這給我們一個很好的經驗,或許往這個方向走,未來現在還沒有地下化的電纜都能夠更有韌性,那這個部分,委員剛剛所提的計畫,請國部長來說明。"},{"start":23068.987,"end":23082.758,"text":"報告委員,這個您剛才所指導的這個臺電公司我想我們會通盤的考量,那這個在地質地理上面,如果在技術上可行的話,我們會去做。"},{"start":23083.649,"end":23102.581,"text":"我們會優先去做但是在那個海邊的那個我有去看那個比較有比較大的問題我覺得海邊的部分是怕會淹水嗎然後那個如果地下電纜如果入水的話沒有辦法修理"},{"start":23103.715,"end":23131.942,"text":"反而更慘所以我們會衡量技術上面可以處理的方式我覺得技術上因為你們現在一直在講所謂的韌性電網這件事情如果韌性電網這個事情能夠達成的話我覺得運用現在的這些科技的技術應該去好好的思考另外第二個我剛剛還沒講完就是說電感如果不能地下化旁邊種植的行道數就很重要了"},{"start":23133.042,"end":23134.623,"text":"院長您同意我的看法嗎?"},{"start":23134.623,"end":23138.766,"text":"剛剛您看到的那些照片,可不可以再把我調回去剛剛的那些照片?"},{"start":23141.468,"end":23167.28,"text":"這一排的鹿樹,種這個是什麼?黑板樹啦!黑板樹很怕,只要風來,一吹它就倒了。黑板樹,小葉懶人,是在南部地區種最多的行道樹。它最容易折斷、最容易勾斷電線,甚至折斷電線桿。所以這個在河堤道路上面,這個是屬於經濟部水利署的河川道路,這個大概幾千棵的黑板樹。"},{"start":23168.328,"end":23182.826,"text":"我們期待是不是經濟部能夠跟農業部來做合作農業部有這個臨時所他們有去研究哪一些樹種是比較適合當行道樹的你們可不可以跟臨時所來做合作把這樣的樹種全部換掉"},{"start":23183.507,"end":23184.268,"text":"部長您同意我的看法?"},{"start":23199.5,"end":23222.217,"text":"是,我們會完全依照這個委員的這個指示,我們會馬上跟這個農業部來協商,那用農業部他們很專業,他們可以知道哪一些樹可以對這個環境會比較好,甚至於我們在找說哪一些樹對二氧化碳的這個吸收會比較大,來提供這個環境,優質的環境,這個我們馬上會進行的。"},{"start":23224.659,"end":23246.172,"text":"我們在農業部裡頭培養了很多的林業博士我跟委員報告就是說以平和公路為例就是在整個在電燃地下化的同時我們就組成了一個團隊然後包括數種的選擇在不同地區的數種的選擇然後適合這種不同地形跟地貌的部分所以後續"},{"start":23246.952,"end":23265.062,"text":"我們在處理這個部分我想我們也會跟經濟部合作會組成一個數種選擇甚至包括種植的輔導我們都會來處理好我想這個部分其實不單只是因為高雄這一次受到十七疾風所以受創慘重院長如果您這幾天有空到高雄來看一看的話"},{"start":23265.822,"end":23292.117,"text":"你就知道高雄到現在很多的大馬路兩旁還是有很多還沒清完的路數當然我們也很感謝國軍國軍這次大概調派了超過2000人力來協助高雄做這個樹木的清運那講到您那個部長您剛剛講到這個包括減碳啊等等我接下來要問的這個問題其實我已經問很多次了院長您看過這個嗎"},{"start":23294.605,"end":23313.897,"text":"光電隧道在高速公路上面是2022年蘇貞昌當院長的時候我曾經在這裡質詢過蘇院長告訴我說這是一個可以思考的路徑因為國外開始在做這一類的研究了好了到了2023年奇怪都是10月份"},{"start":23315.482,"end":23343.495,"text":"陳建仁當院長的時候我又再提了一次當時在濃水圳上面做光電板我認為這是錯誤的政策我覺得可以去思考比如說用高速公路的隔音牆把它做成一個光電隧道那行政院也認為應該可以研究可是我問了很多次交通部抵死不從能源署認為這是一個可以研究的方向能源署認為可以做交通部抵死不從"},{"start":23344.943,"end":23360.012,"text":"院長我再讓您看這是在今年的4月18號在瑞士瑞士他們開始在計畫在公路上面建置這樣的一個太陽能板的光電隧道這是4月份的"},{"start":23361.072,"end":23377.688,"text":"接下來讓您看這個是最新的,2024年8月份,歐洲的許多國家,包括這個TaxExplorer的報導,歐洲的許多國家開始在研究做光電隧道的可行性。"},{"start":23378.308,"end":23397.742,"text":"光電隧道的可行性就會比如說我們不用在農地上面建置太陽能光電板不用在水準上面建置太陽能光電板運用現有的公路建置這樣的一個太陽能隧道它可以達到綠電減碳各式各樣的這樣的一個模式"},{"start":23398.905,"end":23424.446,"text":"部長我看您一直點頭您同意我的看法基本上這個方向是可以去考慮的但是這個牽扯到交通的安全行人的安全這個所有的這個這個不是你這個講法跟交通不一樣我當然知道這個牽扯到交通的安全行人的安全包括裝置的安全交通部一直跟我說那個太陽能板只要遇到大風遇到什麼它就會飛走"},{"start":23429.463,"end":23450.757,"text":"有一個很大的問題,包括成本。建構一個這樣的環境當然是非常的理想,但是以目前的成本來考量,它可能發出來的電沒有辦法抵擋我們的投資。所以基於實驗、科學來看是沒有問題。"},{"start":23451.638,"end":23477.217,"text":"但是如果按企業經營啊,臺電來經營這個的話,可能就是不符成本。 這個當然不可能是臺電去經營啊,但是我覺得是不是政府能夠研究,可以開始做一些可行性評估。 跟委員報告,高峰局啊,他已經正式在說他會收集像類似這樣的國外的經驗,那收集國外經驗之前,他已經在北中南12個服務區招標完成,先在服務區做起。"},{"start":23483.659,"end":23500.626,"text":"院長,我其實覺得我們一直在談光電談能源政策,剛剛很多委員在問你們能源配比的事情,我覺得還是應該要有更多創新的想法,然後讓台灣能夠在能源的這件事情上面還是持續走在世界的前端。"},{"start":23503.151,"end":23524.729,"text":"好,謝謝邱毅英委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢,謝謝。接下來登記第8號邱志偉委員之質詢以書面提出,請行政院院書面答覆,並列入記錄刊登公報。再接下來我們請登記第9號陳冠廷委員質詢。"},{"start":23538.052,"end":23542.194,"text":"陳委員好 院長好 院長各位部會首長還有國人同胞大家好首先要恭賀我們這一次的臺灣的國家日順利舉辦 不管我們如何自稱"},{"start":23564.281,"end":23591.171,"text":"不論來自何時不論來自何方只要我們認同臺灣這塊土地只要我們認同臺灣的民主法治只要我們認同守護臺灣的主權我想我們就是臺灣人這就是我們的國家日那院長從520上任到現在您就任院長大概也是5個多月可不可以跟我們分享一下這5個多月來哪一個在執政的這個願景的實現程度你覺得最滿意的"},{"start":23592.981,"end":23611.162,"text":"最滿意嗎?對自己來說哪一個施政的主軸你覺得最滿意的?因為我們在一百天的時候我們有一個行動101的策略方案那提議面提出了很多那我不敢說最滿意我覺得最貼切需要的就是我們看到這兩次風災之後帶給民眾的不便"},{"start":23612.063,"end":23640.501,"text":"過去我們雖然在治水上面我們花了相當的時間也花了相當的經費我覺得已經達到起碼基本上的需求但是還有一些系統性的問題那我已經在明年度551億的系統性治水當中希望相關單位都能夠緊密的去設計好這個未來的需求我覺得這個不是滿意我覺得是現在此刻最需要的謝謝院長所以說對於國土的堅韌度你認為這是我們未來最重要的願景之一"},{"start":23641.141,"end":23665.499,"text":"那我們請院長還有部長部長經濟部部長來這是直接直接引導到我們的下一個議題就是關於均衡臺灣院長請問什麼是均衡臺灣均衡臺灣在總統的施政理念跟他的競選過程當中一直談到所以第一個階段我們是把"},{"start":23666.86,"end":23692.971,"text":"臺灣走過一片之後找出了140項重要的基礎工程希望能夠因此而提升臺灣整個的基礎工程的基本設施的建設跟水準再來就是我們希望從北部到桃竹苗到中部到大南方甚至到東部都能夠有一個區域性的發展這過去的政府也經常這麼做那我們把過去的經驗加上現在我們可以發展的科技產業融為在一起分這整個區"},{"start":23694.394,"end":23694.514,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":23714.83,"end":23732.942,"text":"所以我們對於中小微企業的產業跟所謂的傳產,我們也希望他能夠進行雙軸的轉型,淨零跟能力的轉型,所以我們編了116億來幫助他們從這個轉型,就是希望他們不要落後於整個國際跟台灣的這個科技發展能夠逐步的上升。 沒錯"},{"start":23733.542,"end":23762.56,"text":"不要落後於國際的發展同時一些偏鄉的一些我們的民生的基礎設施我們要把它做得更好也就是說我們不是在經營工時而已不是只有追尋利潤而已我們要注重的是基礎設施的健全發展所以我想要請教根據沒有自來水地區的供水改善計畫現在各縣市的無自來水沿管升級案水利署是以每戶工程不超過60萬元為審查標準只要超過60萬元水利署基本上就不會去考慮"},{"start":23763.393,"end":23780.735,"text":"可是呢在我們嘉義山區很多用戶都是地區偏遠戶密數低也就是說這樣的現行標準來看會超過60萬元的標準所以這些案子會駁回可是部長這不是只有在我們嘉義縣山區其實各個縣市的山區地區都有這樣的偏鄉的問題"},{"start":23782.037,"end":23800.221,"text":"那如果我們要達成均衡台灣是不是我們可以把無自來水地區的供水改善計畫聽說經濟部已經有提一個計畫給行政院未來要提高到80萬元山區用戶要提高到100萬元請問有這件事情嗎在無自來水地區供水供水地區的改善計畫第5期從114年到118年我們編列了106億那當然希望這個能夠檢討過去執行上"},{"start":23808.2,"end":23813.125,"text":"報告委員,我們現在這個水利署可以協助輔導還有這個補助的地方,我想還是要地方政府辦理這個簡易自來水系統,那麼來改善這個民眾的用水。"},{"start":23828.78,"end":23856.258,"text":"譬如說嘉義大埔鄉西嶼村5-70的,原來成本156萬一戶,改申請可以申請減水。 水利署正在研提無自來水地區供水改善第5期計畫,也就是114年到118年,加大執行量能持續推動,提升偏鄉以及原住民區健康飲水,並保證供水安全。"},{"start":23857.479,"end":23881.174,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長。我必須要強調,現在嘉義縣大埔鄉,它就是坐落在我們水庫旁,水庫就是坐落在大埔鄉的鄉徑之內。所以有許多民眾是住在水庫旁,卻無法使用水庫水。等於說,我們這樣的做法,其實就是把我們最後一塊的地圖把它補起來。堅韌的台灣,還有基礎建設的共享,那不可以說是因為他們在偏遠山區,反而得到更少的資源。我們要相反的,"},{"start":23881.434,"end":23881.474,"text":"麻煩請農業部長備選"},{"start":23912.076,"end":23912.601,"text":"部長可以請回,謝謝"},{"start":23921.641,"end":23949.922,"text":"院長去年9月的時候賴總統那時候是賴副總統由南下到我們嘉義的新港鄉那時候有提到說他的願景那是施政的願景他說嘉義縣未來不會只有工業區不會只有科學園區他希望還有增加我們的農業生物科學園區也就是我們不忘本我們嘉義是過去是從農業大縣觀光大縣現在是農工科技大縣但是農業還是我們嘉義縣發展的命脈之一所以"},{"start":23950.558,"end":23962.692,"text":"院長關於賴總統的政見這個願景我們是不是可以把它共同實現現在我跟部長來討論一下現在農業部的農業科技園區管理中心下面有屏東園區還有桃園園區還有蘭花園區對對對總共有三個園區是"},{"start":23966.997,"end":23975.422,"text":"那截止至113年8月我看已經有核准115家農企業進駐,那已經總投資金額已經到了172億8千萬台幣,包含農業資產、包含農業設施、天然物、生技研發等6大類的產業都有進駐。"},{"start":23987.561,"end":23998.637,"text":"這三年的營業額分別是52億、55億到64億,所以這是透過園區把上下游的廠商做整個串聯,這是一個龐大的產業工業鏈,這個我們是非常肯定的。"},{"start":23999.178,"end":24014.874,"text":"那第一期105年已經完成了現在開發第二期那109年正式開始招商但是我們現在在想請教部長的第三期有沒有可能開始規劃如果規劃有沒有可能往台灣的中間的走廊嘉義這個地帶來去做開發"},{"start":24017.062,"end":24037.65,"text":"我跟委員報告,就是整個農業科學園區裡面,最重要的是把我們農產業的一級產業做一個加值的部分。那陳如你剛才說的,在整個的屏東的農業科學園區裡面,我們第二期的部分,那以過往的經驗,我們在第一期招商到滿70%以後,我們就會進到第二期的規劃。"},{"start":24038.91,"end":24053.895,"text":"第二期目前實際進駐30%預定要進駐的已經達到40%所以也可以開始去考慮第三期的農業科技園區的座落我想委員也非常這幾年來一直非常積極的推動有關於農業"},{"start":24055.055,"end":24056.855,"text":"謝謝部長,那院長跟部長還是想請"},{"start":24084.133,"end":24112.31,"text":"兩位齁,來做整體的這個規劃,把我們不要說新港齁,我們整個嘉義縣他的這個農產,還有他們可能的這個加工,或者是可能發展的這個整個調線齁,來去做整體的規劃之後,還是希望說能夠在一年內能夠提出嘉義園區的規劃方案,是不是可以請院長能夠來協助促成,來去我們共同把賴總統的這個主要的這個願景能夠在嘉義來把它落實?"},{"start":24113.12,"end":24133.285,"text":"好,謝謝委員。嘉義不僅是農業的大縣,它現在未來會是科技甚至軍工、工業上的大縣。那從農業的大縣能夠加強農業生技園區的發展,這絕對是一個正確必經的道路。那剛剛我問過部長,他認為委員所說的這個期限,在一年內我們來把它完成。"},{"start":24133.365,"end":24133.465,"text":"國發會主委"},{"start":24167.964,"end":24192.377,"text":"院長我們嘉義縣另外一個重要的一個議題就是我們的查改廠總廠南遷嘉義的這個進度那這個進度今年1月就已經到了行政院請問大概是什麼時候可以核定我稍微補充一下2021年8月前行政院長蘇貞昌他視察這個的時候就已經把嘉義預定地了然後農業部在2023年已經進行了可行性評估跟先行規劃作業"},{"start":24193.317,"end":24207.91,"text":"今年1月已經把評估報告呈給行政院可是1月到現在有9個月我現在是沒有聽到下文所以如果從頭算2021年8月到現在是2024年10月是不是可以請院長來"},{"start":24209.091,"end":24231.317,"text":"要求國發會盡量在最快的數在4個月內好不好,來完成跨部會的協調選擇。我跟國務委員報告一下,因為他4月份,我們4月份的時候有提出改善意見給到了農業部,那農業部後來又送了一份到院,然後10月8號院又回覆意見再次修改,所以農業部現在正在農業部修改中。"},{"start":24232.457,"end":24258.415,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們在去年年底的時候完成了可進行的規劃那我們分別在1月份跟3月份就提報了中長城計畫到行政院去爭取相關的一個中長城公共建設的一個經費那在整個的一個審查過程中其實委員有非常好的意見我們做了修正那最近的一次修正完了以後我們預計在11月就會再報到行政院去"},{"start":24259.516,"end":24279.552,"text":"來進行做最後的一個確認那我們期待說透過這樣子幾次的跟委員的溝通能夠讓這個場這個場域的整個功能跟他的一個跟產業的鏈結能夠達到更實際的一個效力所以11月11月我們就會送我們現在大概整理的差不多了"},{"start":24280.548,"end":24305.451,"text":"這個院長這個中南部的茶農都在看這個案子,那不是只有我們嘉義地區,雲嘉南地區那中南部的茶農都在看這個案子,所以我必須要為我們的茶農請命,希望院長能夠促成行政院盡快落實這個擦乾產南遷嘉義,讓這個案子成為院長你的一個重大的農業政績。謝謝,我們現在外賓來訪,我們經常都送阿里山的紅茶。"},{"start":24306.837,"end":24334.353,"text":"還有高山茶都是很棒的選擇啊對這個是對做外交來講也是非常有意義的那是有台灣的意向台灣的重要的一個觀光景地然後還有他所孕育出來的這些特補的茶種然後這些茶種然後又可以帶來台灣的意向給這些外賓所以謝謝謝謝院長那最後院長我們剛剛談到阿里山阿里山上大部分都是國有林地那所以山上的民眾最關心的還是國有林地的居住問題"},{"start":24335.313,"end":24356.879,"text":"那國有林地的既有居住使用房屋的部分本來行政院是有要修正讓肯定續辦清理要點的規定那把國有林地上面的既有的這些建物的清理認定從58527就是58年5月27日改成各地方政府第一次非都市土地辦理使用編地公告日期加一線是75年11月1日"},{"start":24357.739,"end":24377.315,"text":"但是各部會都認為各縣市政府第一次非督公告的年度相差太遠,它不利於國有林地的管理,所以行政院現在還沒有拍板這個方案。 最早的屏東縣是64年10月6日,最晚的是75年11月1日。 所以我在這邊是不是可以直接建議行政院,全國統一用國產法的82721,82年7月21日當作分界點。"},{"start":24380.838,"end":24395.213,"text":"八、二、七、二、一之前就已經供民眾居住使用的非營林使用土地可以直接從國有林搬地變為一般的林業用地再變更為國有非公用財產之後就統一交給國產署管理"},{"start":24395.934,"end":24421.314,"text":"在同意輸出給民眾。 這樣子的話可以解決山區大部分的居住問題。 是不是可以請行政院來考量一下?適用性的問題、適法性的問題還是請部長來答覆?我跟委員報告,就是說我想58527跟那個82721本身,我想過去幾年委員一直非常關心的。 那非常一個重要的就是說82721本身是國產署是針對國有非公用的部分去適用。"},{"start":24423.595,"end":24444.548,"text":"臨時保安營地是國有公用的部分所以它不能直接試用但是後來我們折衝了一個就是說用最近的一個航拍的一個相關的一個規定就像您說的那我跟委員報告有兩個方法可以解這個問題因為它的確是有已經變成一個聚落了那如果說國土計畫"},{"start":24447.038,"end":24456.141,"text":"實施以後我們用相規就可以直接處理,就直接可以處理,但是國土計劃還沒有實施之前還有一個路就是我們在...謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢,謝謝,謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長備詢,謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":24477.669,"end":24498.131,"text":"接下來請登記第10號,陳超明委員質詢。院長好,首先有請我們行政院卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長備選。"},{"start":24507.222,"end":24532.058,"text":"陳委員好 卓院長好我第一個執行的問題就是桃子苗大矽谷計劃我們的速度要加快好不好那今年的國會會在2月份提出桃子苗的大矽谷計劃那這期間我安排了經濟委員會考察苗栗兩次我個人召開協調會八次"},{"start":24534.147,"end":24553.119,"text":"那很高興,終於在9月30日經過我們行政院正式核定,苗栗縣有三個地方納入大細股計畫,一個是職覽科學園區第二期的擴編,一個是頭份科學園區,一個是厚隆的產業園區。"},{"start":24555.1,"end":24556.261,"text":"投資在苗栗縣絕對是最好的選擇"},{"start":24580.054,"end":24581.435,"text":"這次也表現了我們中央與地方"},{"start":24610.605,"end":24638.287,"text":"團結合作,共演夢想,讓我們苗栗縣成為西部科技走廊的新鮮的一個都市。在此,我們苗栗縣的總統任縣長特別叫我來感謝我們的賴總統、左院長,還有我們共和會,還有我們經濟部大家全力的支持,把這個合定下來,讓它能大展身手,讓我們苗栗縣的院長能全程示警,"},{"start":24638.823,"end":24653.588,"text":"這一點要繼續跟我們一起幫忙,因為這裡面一定有很多困難的問題,只要中央幫我們協助解決的話,我相信很快苗栗人的夢想就會完成,這一點拜託一下。"},{"start":24655.149,"end":24676.428,"text":"謝謝委員總統的政見一定是最重要的國家施政方向,但是不可能一夜實現,我們一定會按部就班,循序漸進。這當中國科會、國發會扮演非常重要的角色,所以非常非常的辛苦。所以我現在巴結他,我現在在委員會都不敢再修理他了。好不好,謝謝。阿現在請經濟部長,我們國會可以下去了。"},{"start":24690.359,"end":24704.894,"text":"我第二個質疑,就是苗栗天花湖水庫的興建以後,您中央要很清楚的表態,問題要到哪裏去做。那經濟部在民國83年開始規劃天花湖水庫,在102年通過環評,"},{"start":24710.609,"end":24723.937,"text":"但是後續因為地方的溝通那時民運團體起來到處都在反對也是現在的執政黨當初的很多作為我自己經過這個情形我們一情二質"},{"start":24725.223,"end":24748.075,"text":"現在陶瓊廟大水谷計劃已經核定了,未來的高科技進駐到苗栗或是到新竹的時候,水量勢必增加很多。我們國的水庫給台中利用跟新竹科學以前的水都是靠苗栗供應,那現在我們有產業基地,我們互相聯絡互相幫忙。"},{"start":24749.156,"end":24773.459,"text":"但是天花府水庫我覺得施必要件,現在加上我們極端的氣候,那沒有水,有水要施,無水就痛苦,現在就讓得很快,大家都沒辦法水,但是當時極端氣候變遷,我們感染的氣候,我們要為它臭苗吃氣,所以尤其等兩年,"},{"start":24775.18,"end":24802.886,"text":"簽署時在竹蘭頭份,在苗栗縣大概有50%的人口,切水切電,讓我們每天都要洗,我現在只要這樣,苗栗縣政府有準備,但是會來支持我們天花府這個水庫,做我們大溪庫區區劃這個備用水源,你們到底有要做或不要做,你們這樣每天說簽署口沒人反對,現在表列官第一個表態,"},{"start":24803.973,"end":24806.077,"text":"報告委員這一個事情我不清楚"},{"start":24814.417,"end":24835.399,"text":"我知不知?你知不知?我們在淡水計劃看你們會不會說,我們跟你們說,我們跟你們討論,要不然要積極一點,情報要聯合一點。是是是,謝謝委員。不然我跟你們講,先一個水庫,你們現在為了科學用電用水,你們海邊的淡水計劃花了有多少錢?"},{"start":24836.22,"end":24841.003,"text":"這個我們會納入優先考慮我再跟委員報告這個地區當然需要工業區將來的園區都需要用水但天花湖這個場子啊原來我們在顧慮的過去幾年是認為"},{"start":24859.753,"end":24860.353,"text":"責成水利署下去做評估"},{"start":24885.882,"end":24894.028,"text":"好,因為以前都是地方反對的,你們都不敢講,現在地方表態說要請你來見了,你們應該要下去鼓勵主持好不好?謝謝委員再來,政治部請回座,我現在說國土計畫,你們說要上路"},{"start":24904.718,"end":24906.659,"text":"國土計劃法在明年4月110日要生效。 我是跟議長說,你們真的要很慎重考慮。"},{"start":24926.618,"end":24932.79,"text":"因為這個國土計劃法在國民黨的時代執政時代同歸。 再來換你民進黨執政在這半年內,你若沒有去地方去溝通協調,大家無家無常常。"},{"start":24939.704,"end":24940.144,"text":"我現在跟議長說"},{"start":24963.905,"end":24989.33,"text":"不要怪地方的政府,我暫時說一些事情,其實是你中央的行政責任,你們現在這麼厲害,明年要到齊要表現你們的power,你們全力推動,這不對,我是執政要延緩。我現在要跟你說的第一件事,苗栗山多平原少,水庫多,苗栗縣的國土保育區面積,你給我賠20%。"},{"start":24991.36,"end":24993.361,"text":"我講這個問題很重要,我們要學平東的做法。"},{"start":25018.837,"end":25044.698,"text":"平東怎麼做你知道嗎?把公有地,就是財產的土地化為農業,農業就是你永遠要工作,你不得翻身,他這樣做,他把本來的農業優良農地改為農惡,把都市計劃內的農業用地改為城鄉發展區,如果平東通過,我們廟的管理這樣做,我10年會叫管理局去通過。"},{"start":25048.684,"end":25077.982,"text":"所以現在背卸是很嚴重的所以這個國土計畫真的要好好考慮利用還有如果能沿著兩年好好的溝通協調讓地方發出他們未來要發展最重要的地方不然我聽到本來要問你今天總執行的時間是多少你不要說農民有農業的精神大家都要看土地有沒有賺人都沒改變人性沒改變不要想到很偉大"},{"start":25079.363,"end":25104.569,"text":"你們都曉得,都市裡面的農業區,你們都一直在改變,變成商業區往那裡下去。我跟委員報告,就是說有關於劃農業發展區到底怎麼劃,我想,絕對不是只有地方政府劃中央省,一定是中央跟地方政府一起合作的。所以我想後續我們會去加強溝通,然後適合的這些地,我想我們會跟縣政府一起來討論,"},{"start":25105.809,"end":25106.71,"text":"主動跟內政部請求把它劃出來,這個部分我想一起努力。"},{"start":25123.763,"end":25126.305,"text":"是,謝謝委員提醒我個人一直覺得國土激發法的內容是不是沒有辦法像農民說的很清楚"},{"start":25149.924,"end":25150.144,"text":"還有一點啦"},{"start":25172.941,"end":25195.887,"text":"您說糧食國安的問題,保證也一定有保證頭地是防災地也保證,我常常聽那些學者專家那個什麼糧食國安的問題,你自己去看,現在產量提高了,你要有各種改變的方式,因為總執行歐巴基國有重點想問,改天我要跟農委會請教,你再轉告給我們的卓院長。"},{"start":25199.022,"end":25221.125,"text":"再來我對苗栗一項現象我一直想要做的事情,就是指定苗栗為地區環保思案區,打造臺灣的圈圈子。我們苗栗的地方地區環保很漂亮,而且每一塊的地方交通非常便利。我現在跟你說一個現實的問題在哪裡,苗栗一塊的啊,"},{"start":25222.401,"end":25225.763,"text":"部長,你好好想我講的這個幾個問題。所以在土地內,它的農地都去變成"},{"start":25251.623,"end":25267.617,"text":"從我去變成鑑定,我們苗栗的農地地區環保,自己可以做事,什麼就受到宣示。 所以我在這裏我定了一個官僚,苗栗官僚交通很方便,到台北45分鐘,到高雄70分鐘,到台中20分鐘。"},{"start":25271.482,"end":25294.742,"text":"所謂苗栗要蓋農舍要符合農舍的行政規定,這裏有一點,就是很困擾,農舍用地應既行配置以農地者地界線策及連接道路,不得影響農業經營用地的完整,但使特施對行者不在此限。"},{"start":25296.147,"end":25323.313,"text":"因為特殊地形者﹐我地的經濟委員會﹐跟農業部﹐跟你們農委會的特農整個變了。 您說不來,好啦。你一直要知道,你平地的農地﹐平地的農地﹐跟我所剩的山坡地是沒有人你用這樣的條件來設限。 我在這裡,地方的公務人員,沒有人跟我去解釋特殊的地形,它經常變成獨立。"},{"start":25324.651,"end":25350.754,"text":"所以我們廟裡邊85%山坡地都面臨嚴重的、苛刻的損耗,沒辦法通。 我覺得這一點要因地制宜,不能說在平地的農舍跟山坡地的農舍,你們要求的條件都一樣。 平地有路,山坡地要自己開。 現在山坡地要知道保證一定,山坡地缺水。"},{"start":25351.793,"end":25377.801,"text":"您要收農作物、切工、農產作物,您就給我們限制。 按照大政、對外政、水個該行,叫做增加收入。 您也要去改改這高經濟價值的事務。 農場、或是銷燃、或是存項目,都有一些有經濟價值。 您要行行,我一定要政市規、要政土道、要政對外該行。"},{"start":25379.554,"end":25385.179,"text":"所以有時候想不通,你們這些都不會讓人變調,所以我就這樣。"},{"start":25386.598,"end":25389.999,"text":"其實在我們國土計畫的農事的部分的一個鄉村聚落的規劃裡面就可以"},{"start":25429.79,"end":25453.409,"text":"好好 謝謝 謝謝時間已到謝謝苗栗的陳超明委員 謝謝左院長及相關首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":25456.897,"end":25457.478,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":25488.68,"end":25494.625,"text":"好,謝謝主席。這個行政院長、經濟部長有請。麻煩請卓院長再備詢。請經濟部部長備詢。謝謝,林委員好。好,院長午安。這個部長也午安。午安。"},{"start":25509.789,"end":25521.569,"text":"今天大部分的委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題,這本席也不例外,特別點一下稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候講說台南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了"},{"start":25522.472,"end":25548.687,"text":"那我必須要講我是桃園選出來的民意代表我桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊我要提醒一下兩位這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的很有可能會導致區域的對立但我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了那我們當然要站在選民這一邊所以未來我們的民營電廠的興建本席是愛南同意但這件事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教"},{"start":25549.267,"end":25568.15,"text":"但這個指出了一個大的問題也就是說我們的能源政策顯然是亂七八糟而且後遺症頻傳現在正在發生不管是電廠的擴建招致民怨或者是電價的上漲等等都是能源政策的後遺症今天我們要把話說說清楚因為人民的知情權是很重要的"},{"start":25568.61,"end":25594.895,"text":"能源政策會影響產業發展,影響環境品質,影響民生,影響物價,因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向,但是人民有權力知道走向跟邏輯,而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相。剛剛院長回答這個李燕秀委員的質詢的時候曾經有講,能源政策都會合理的延續,他問你蔡政府的政策你會不會延續,你說都會延續對不對?"},{"start":25595.899,"end":25623.476,"text":"我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進該發展更快的我們絕對不會再慢以前慢下來的我們希望把它補上來你真的有延續嗎?我再給你一次機會我們希望延續院長你知不知道電業法最近公告的修正修正的差異是什麼?你知不知道?委員請他講哪一個重點告訴我們電業法修正最大部長要不要救援一下電業法修正最大的重點是什麼?就是電價"},{"start":25626.759,"end":25650.627,"text":"電價的部分由審議委員會來調整這兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗電業法修正最大的差異不再是電價這些問題這是肢解最大的核心的問題是改變了2016修正版本之後一個重要的決策叫做台電拆分我這樣提示之後你們有印象嗎2016年的電業法要求能源政策規劃跟走向是什麼"},{"start":25651.551,"end":25665.948,"text":"報告委員那個時候我還沒有進來沒有進來這個行政院對你現在要修嘛表示你要修舊的對不對最近除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外上一次是2016年修的這最大的差異是什麼"},{"start":25667.238,"end":25681.84,"text":"兩位不知道很可怕沒關係我來跟兩位說分明阿第一把修正最關鍵的就是要把第六條拿掉曾經阿這我們講說這個為了要扶植綠電對不對為了要打造一個健康的環境民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值阿"},{"start":25683.021,"end":25710.27,"text":"財務不透明做事不效率還有長電等等亂七八糟必須要改革必須要整頓所以搞出一個電業法的版本這個電業法的版本告訴大家6年之後還一定要分拆等於走向民營化的路把這個發書配跟售拆分對不對有一個這樣子重要的指導綱領在這個地方對不對好2024馬上公佈要進入修正的電業法裡面這條刪除了"},{"start":25711.191,"end":25718.353,"text":"這是重大的政策轉變吧,院長,是嗎?是的。是對不對?那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎?"},{"start":25720.27,"end":25747.868,"text":"政策的延續它不一定是一成不變的,我們現在面對很多的事情,就是在整個大的能源架構底下,我們從蒸汽、展綠到多元到核,這個都一定是照著程序走的,但內容是可以調整的,時程也是可以彈性的。大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題,我今天就先不談配比的問題,但我談別的,比如說電液法修正就是一個很好的題目,你剛剛講說會延續又說要修正,這其實是矛盾的概念,我先問,這個電液法的修正誰的決策?"},{"start":25751.031,"end":25758.296,"text":"是院長您的決策,比如行政院開會決議的結果,還是說郭部長提出來的想法,還是現在你們還有這個氣候變遷委員會對不對,經濟發展相關的委員會,來自總統的指示嗎?是誰的決策?誰決定要把這個第6條拿掉?"},{"start":25764.588,"end":25791.311,"text":"報告委員這個是我們根據臺電他實際上面做的評估所以提供給我們這個經濟部經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司其實沒有辦法讓這個三家公司都能夠走向比較好運作的情況還是保持原來的狀態才有可能做得更完善"},{"start":25793.137,"end":25800.055,"text":"所以是台電找經濟部,經濟部基本上同意了對不對?那你們是不是打臉前朝政府?那前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢?"},{"start":25800.765,"end":25827.102,"text":"我們必須要與時俱進,我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛,對不對,所以我們與時俱進,然後我們提出來,那請大院所有的委員來討論,同意嘛。院長,我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性的,因為概念上來講,本席向主張,面對問題才是解決問題的第一步,那我現在要正式請教你,這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理?"},{"start":25828.695,"end":25837.624,"text":"大的戰略就是展綠蒸汽減煤到非核這大的戰略其中任何一個要隨時式來調整的那種戰術性的問題"},{"start":25839.919,"end":25858.792,"text":"主管單位都必須拿出來討論所以剛剛委員講這個討論目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來在主管部分在討論的過程當中他一定收集更多那到這裡來我們還有政委還有院會會做多重的考慮你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼對於政策的影響對於台電財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":25863.188,"end":25864.569,"text":"臺電是一個絆腳石,他們說財務不透明問題一大堆對不對?"},{"start":25884.997,"end":25904.056,"text":"關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場讓很多人用競爭的方式避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價短購的方式來處理對不對所以台電才必須要整理必須要重整對不對那你今天現在看起來修法的方向看起來是開倒車"},{"start":25905.097,"end":25906.338,"text":"那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的"},{"start":25920.884,"end":25933.139,"text":"後來到現在我們有新的命題也就是說2020年以後零碳是全球的共識所以我們就要來調整"},{"start":25935.782,"end":25954.585,"text":"照你這樣講,零碳是優勢趨勢對不對?所以相對來講,綠電未來發展政府的輔助的比例要越來越低,因為大家都搶著做對不對?那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啊?綠電當初的規劃我們到2030年的時候,希望能夠滿足所有的出國的廠商,他需要綠電的廠商,我們都能夠滿足他們。"},{"start":25956.035,"end":25971.663,"text":"部長這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦我先跟你講這幾件事情第一個對於產業的影響本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場希望來共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候他有心理預期也就是過了幾年之後我的市場會越來越自由會透過競爭的方式變成一個正常的市場"},{"start":25972.663,"end":25987.318,"text":"可是這6年來用高價短購的方式你先走這個本行沒有意見可是你先走之後這些先佔的產業把好處都佔光了然後你現在好處佔光他們領走了高額的補助之後你現在講說好我們在市場正常化的角度我們不做了回歸舊制"},{"start":25988.439,"end":26013.131,"text":"那請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎?這是對於你未來更多的產業投入可能造成的衝擊。再來我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力啊。我們講說自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力對不對?當然你講台電有員工的問題啊、有拆分、有債務的問題本身都了解,我也沒有要拆台電的台的意思,但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情之後可能的後果會是什麼?"},{"start":26014.071,"end":26019.399,"text":"後果是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的佔比繼續增加投資的時候,你還有哪樣的工具啊?"},{"start":26020.39,"end":26045.328,"text":"我們接下來就是本席要談的阿我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地我們要用短購電價的方式來處理當然也被大家這個批評對不對當初大家批評短購電價很高用了很多納稅錢的時候你們講未來這是個過渡未來台電會自由化等等公民電廠通通跑出來之後成本就會下降因為他會競爭現在前提條件消失了你的短購機制會退場還是不會退場"},{"start":26046.755,"end":26048.537,"text":"總告現在沒有不存在的"},{"start":26056.192,"end":26076.96,"text":"怎麼會沒有存在新的部份是不存在的部長我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題離岸風電是下一段但是短購怎麼會不存在呢你每一年台電都有報告就看這張圖表就好您說的是光電的部份對啊光電啊現在從2019年開始你的短購支出是248.8億然後2020 353億2021年426億2022年588億到了2023年905億"},{"start":26085.868,"end":26113.977,"text":"這是不是一個可觀的成長?誰買單?準夠的價格是往下走的哪有往下走?你看折線圖,平均購價從一度4.26到了2023的資料是5.20這是台電的公開資料部長你可以再確認一下那我想請問院長跟部長2024馬上要到年底啦今年他是上升還是下降?這個當然台電要再評估他現在的發電用電跟這些業者之間的狀況那我們現在需求的是因為我們將來"},{"start":26115.453,"end":26132.33,"text":"二零二五、二六甚至二六、二十七我們的舊有電廠出移的比較多,我們需要更多的民間電廠,民間電廠來商議。所以你需要對不對?那你需要會不會付更高的代價?會對不對?因為你需要嗎?這要合理,這不能說需要就...所以你預期未來這個總額的支出跟平均的價格是會上升還是會下降?"},{"start":26132.97,"end":26150.424,"text":"這個要再經過計算我是當然希望能夠越穩定越好我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現上來看他是看不到任何下降的可能這就回到了大家關鍵的題目它是因為您所看到的是因為這個用電需求成長當然你光電的數量也成長嘛所以總而會成長對不對"},{"start":26152.679,"end":26172.906,"text":"那我的意思是講,你的總額會成長,但是你的市場不改變,這些業者是不是繼續依賴所謂的政府囤購?那你台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大?這就是我講,你這些東西,政策你講你要有空間,可是修正之後它是會有副作用或是有後果的對不對?報告委員,我們未來的綠電銷售,我們是分倉制度。"},{"start":26173.726,"end":26201.313,"text":"所以需要綠電的,他可以購買更高的這個綠電,那麼一般我們國內的廠商都要預估的時候,我本來想問你幾年之後他會開始往下走,進入一個正常的機制,看起來你是回答不出來。因為最終他必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的一個交易平台,這個平台就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。"},{"start":26202.193,"end":26227.786,"text":"我現在接下來講現在財務負擔是節節上升我接下來講離岸豐電剛剛部長有講離岸豐電就沒有短購對不對那我們就把離岸豐電的帳來算一算離岸豐電分三期第一期示範豐廠第二期潛力廠子當初為了推廣所以你先短購當初被大家罵爆嘛一度7塊就是從這個地方來的對不對你說第三期開始我們沒短購了開始進入市場機制對不對市場機制出問題啦三之一標都標出去了很多行政契約不簽了"},{"start":26228.726,"end":26243.069,"text":"因為開始好難喔做不下去了成本好高算不過來我也不見得找得到對不對你們剛剛講說企業都要用電2030都要用電對不對可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候果汁不淺說我店可能賣不掉政府要幫忙為什麼"},{"start":26245.421,"end":26246.262,"text":"有沒有這樣的事?"},{"start":26246.262,"end":26262.591,"text":"先說有沒有這樣的事?應該有嗎?委員報告,三之一他跟政府之間是有合約的,所以我們會按照彼此之間的合約,我們會承諾讓他走下去,然後我們會幫助他,他因為跟他的財務的關係,他得不到銀行的..."},{"start":26268.775,"end":26296.329,"text":"院長我今天時間有限啦你今天講說我會輔導為什麼但是你實際上你政府在準備什麼你是不是要把中鋼拉進來搞一個基金弄個公司然後一樣搞保駕收購只是他帳不掛在台電掛在別的地方那請問這是不是變相短購對不對那出現一個問題所以三之一期的最大問題叫關不保收啊你所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做為什麼因為其實你們剛剛也都提了我綠電要把比例拉上來對不對我要滿足供電的需求"},{"start":26296.989,"end":26310.219,"text":"那你因為這樣然後你的政策被裹挾政府是標案的業主捏標案的業主開具力之後然後這個得標廠商做不到你不但沒有制裁他沒有處理他你還要輔導他拯救他改變規則這樣對嗎"},{"start":26313.002,"end":26328.255,"text":"委員我們這個目的是讓那個電費他的成本可以下降所以我們輔導所有的廠商解決他的問題主要的目的是讓他售電的價格成本可以往下走這個是我們最大的不一樣"},{"start":26328.715,"end":26351.81,"text":"你搞了三之一你打算搞保駕收購,你就一樣是乾坤大挪移對不對,國發基金又要來了,聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係,中鋼再搞一次,我是擔心到最後又是都是納稅人的錢,只是不同的名額而已。 三之二,我今天我還有什麼要講,三之二,國產化出問題啦,結果我們打算要放寬,因為WTO等等的訴訟,我就問,我就問,你當初設計這一套豐電短購帶國產的標準是對的還是錯的?"},{"start":26360.061,"end":26367.747,"text":"國內產業能夠上來接手,這個方向絕對是對的。 方向是對的,但是政策是錯的對不對,因為你的標準不對吧。 國內的廠商確實是有些進展的很快的。 時空的變化太快,我們不可能用一種策略然後可以執行的好幾十年。"},{"start":26381.436,"end":26409.315,"text":"現在的科技這麼進步嘛所以是我們在外部的環境的改變太大了你剛剛這樣一路這樣聽過來喔這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上離岸風電這個給出了錯誤的標準其實原因就是能源結構就是個錯誤的目標所以你整套再生能源的規劃建立在錯誤的邏輯之上錯上加錯是全民要買單啦委員我一句很痛我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程當中但是你的出發點都非常的正確"},{"start":26434.002,"end":26434.042,"text":"紅森漢委員"},{"start":26459.418,"end":26464.883,"text":"謝謝海院長那請主委院長跟郭部長麻煩再請主委院長、經濟部部長備選紅委員好"},{"start":26476.4,"end":26491.336,"text":"院長我因為時間的關係我就直接進入重點。 院長我有看到您在很多地方也包括這個會期的施政報告都有提到會來大力的推動這個二次的能源轉型尤其是深度節能的部分。"},{"start":26491.937,"end":26519.291,"text":"那這部分我想大家都非常非常認同這是很重要的政策方向我去年在杜拜的時候參加聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面他也講了這兩個重要的方向一個是要全力發展再生能源另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率所以這段時間我其實看到無論是賴總統包括卓院長包括郭部長都時常的表達對於深度節能的期望這部分我想大家都看到了"},{"start":26520.111,"end":26541.238,"text":"那當然在今年這個8月的時候我也看到這個經濟部跟能源署其實有提出一份這個深度節能推動計畫然後送到行政院會來做一個報告所以院長應該對於這個計畫的內容應該也有一些了解嘛對不對好院長"},{"start":26542.093,"end":26564.246,"text":"我必須說,其實我在讀完這份8月的這份計畫的內容以後,就是我現在可以拿得到的資料,我確實感覺目前的這個計畫的內容,跟卓院長也好,或賴總統,也包括郭部長,其實在媒體前面談到的這個期望,我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差。"},{"start":26566.411,"end":26584.763,"text":"這段時間我們其實也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論也希望能夠再給目前的這個方案一些更多積極性正面的這個建議所以在這邊我想來跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論那院長很清楚其實台灣並不是我們第一天或第一年來推動節能"},{"start":26585.771,"end":26609.102,"text":"其實大概有十幾二十年的時間臺灣都在推動節能那我們過去其實也花了蠻多的預算在做一些單一設備的汰換比方說很多的節能的冷氣啊冰箱啊那在工業裡面也包括很多節能的設備機台等等等其實我們過去也花了很多資源在汰換那這些做法其實當然都會有一些初步的成果"},{"start":26610.063,"end":26626.968,"text":"那最近我看總統院長跟部長都一直提到要好好善用ESCO就是這個我們節能技術服務產業來協助我們的工作那這絕對是一個對的方向可是現在同時也是這一群產業界的朋友一直想要提醒"},{"start":26627.918,"end":26652.799,"text":"如果要做到真正的深度節能的話就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次那他們都提出一個非常重要的建議喔他們說如果要做到深度節能那麼政府的政策或者政府的補助應該是要讓節能績效越好的人能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持也就是要看績效"},{"start":26654.113,"end":26661.959,"text":"報告委員我非常贊同您的這個指教這個表現在節能上面表現越好的人我們一定會給他incentive那至於這個incentive要怎麼做當然我們會跟這個委員或者跟產業的這一些朋友"},{"start":26682.055,"end":26682.216,"text":"來交換過意見。"},{"start":26700.492,"end":26724.067,"text":"那這件事應該做我也不反對做這件事情但不能只做這件事情部長報告委員我想那份資料可能是比較舊一點我們在8月底9月初的時候我們就已經有稍微在修正了那麼修正當然是根據這個這個院長的這個指示那我們現在先從大的"},{"start":26724.906,"end":26727.007,"text":"市長,我要說的事情是你做用戶的分類這事情我贊成"},{"start":26744.895,"end":26746.196,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":26764.247,"end":26782.039,"text":"這件事情就是我們要說你怎麼樣走來評估你的績效我怎麼樣來給資源一個最關鍵的一個核心的概念尤其是尤其是很多的這個能資訊管理系統的部分所以不然我確實在這份內容就目前這是因為我這10月的時候"},{"start":26782.859,"end":26808.549,"text":"再跟這個相關部會要求請他們提供的資料目前還是沒有那麼看到這一點的東西所以很希望這個部分能夠先把它放進去部長這應該沒有問題吧沒有問題謝謝這個委員我們不斷的在update這個資料因為我們現在主要還是能源系統的這個改變當然您指教的非常好我們現在跟國外的這個業者也在討論怎麼樣引進這個好的這個系統技術進來"},{"start":26812.551,"end":26827.002,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":26828.337,"end":26843.598,"text":"市長,我現在說的是說,我們這不是只是對大的,也不是只是對中鋼,我們是要對現在的產業業界怎麼協助他們把系統性能效的績效評估的方法,客觀、科學的建立起來。以後包括"},{"start":26844.259,"end":26858.625,"text":"銀行要融資,它也要一個績效評估的方法,它也要一個財務評估的方法,這都是基礎,這是第一點。第二點我要跟部長講到,很重要的事情大家都提到,如果要把系統性節能給做好的話,我們就需要有用電大數據的data。"},{"start":26859.525,"end":26874.235,"text":"那這個大數據的data來做深入分析才能把改善的問題點給找到那這是很多SQO業者都共同的心聲那但是現在這個擴大data應用的部分坦白說在這份資料裡面也看不太到"},{"start":26874.875,"end":26895.948,"text":"所以現在這些data其實都是在臺電,所以這些產業界人很希望說臺電是不是能夠協助這些用電data的數據的統整分析,當然要顧到個資跟商業秘密的保障,這當然一定,但是請臺電把這些在data數據上面統整的工作應該承擔下來,給我們業界做最大的支持。"},{"start":26896.508,"end":26910.588,"text":"就像AI一樣,我們就是要有足夠大量的Data導入,你才有辦法找到最有效率跟最好的方法,其實道理沒有差很多,這部分也是大家的心聲。最後一個大家也講到,生物節能工作好像現在只有經濟部在做,"},{"start":26912.278,"end":26927.407,"text":"一方說建築節能是我們內政部在管的可是好像在這裡面也沒有看到建築節能的部分那也包括我們很多節能的產業包括節能的計畫它需要融資它需要很多財務的方案這部分國發會或金管會"},{"start":26927.927,"end":26950.162,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":26950.342,"end":26970.869,"text":"希望其他部會在更大的程度來支持深入節能的工作啦,所以這部分也希望院長可以看到,也包括現在的地方政府,在這裡面也看不到地方政府的角色,在國際上面大家都知道節能很重要關鍵的角色是地方政府,但地方政府也沒有進來在這份的計畫的內容裡面,所以這些種種我們大概提了一個這個建議,希望院長"},{"start":26971.969,"end":26998.901,"text":"可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下有沒有可能再來優化我們目前方案的空間也包括把我們接下來要修的能源管理法能源管理法裡面把上述的這些建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求那所以這幾個部分是希望也是今天為什麼在這邊要希望跟院長來做這個討論因為這可能真的不是只是經濟部的事情院長可以嗎沒有錯我們在內政部包括關於建築的部分"},{"start":26999.421,"end":27010.605,"text":"還有在包括綠色金融的部分,我們都有其他的考量,只是沒有把它放在這個裡面。我們在這邊其實看不到這些內容。我們在這個產業新條例草案上面,第10條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資遞減項目。"},{"start":27026.97,"end":27048.218,"text":"部長我這邊是在幫你爭取啦希望其他的部會可以更加的大力的支持啦那這部分也希望院長可以來支持跟有一個這樣子清楚的指示我剛剛有做過統合的一些會議請簡單解答跟委員報告一下喔您剛才提到的建築、綠色金融我們全部都放在永續會議裡面都有列觀那我們現在也有在會議在整合"},{"start":27049.06,"end":27077.142,"text":"經濟部長跟我談過好幾次這個深度減能的部分我建議如果我們要有一個深度減能的方案的話這應該是要有一個跨部會的方案該放進來的我們應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓這樣子那再來一個是院長我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題其實最近颱風過後我們有許多關於防災治水的討論那其實我想讓院長知道目前其實也有很多關於減災防洪治水的一些新的做法"},{"start":27077.822,"end":27102.239,"text":"那我一般可能叫做淨自然工法那這部分也希望讓院長知道簡單來說這個所謂淨自然工法的意思就是不再只是求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化這過去其實也產生了很多的問題可能會造成河道的下切或者是水泥構造物被破壞所以你就不斷的要用新的工程一再反覆的甚至被績效這叫做永續工程做不完的工程啦"},{"start":27102.679,"end":27129.611,"text":"五年就要做一次五年就要投資一次資源那這幾年其實經濟部跟農業部他們其實也透過這個禁自然工法的導入已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要的示範案例其實在國內外都非常有名包括像在花蓮的蝙蜥包括在新北貢寮的遠望坑溪包括南投種花坑溪目前的案例其實已經越來越多我自己也都到現場去看過其實真的做得非常好"},{"start":27130.231,"end":27153.481,"text":"所以這個做法我想跟院長講,這個做法其實有很多好處。 第一個,安全的防洪減災,這是沒有問題的。 第二個,農民取水灌溉也能夠穩定,這都被驗證了。 再來,枯水期可以不斷流,也能夠恢復棲地的生態。 最重要的事情是,他的經費常常只要那種水泥化的工程的二分之一,而且他可以撐的時間可能更長。"},{"start":27154.201,"end":27168.964,"text":"在經費預算上面都有好處所以院長我想請問你覺得像這種能夠兼顧多營我這邊的投影片寫說五個願望幾乎是一次滿足你要安全減災你要看經費你要不斷流你要生態富裕"},{"start":27171.848,"end":27196.538,"text":"是跟我們報告明年的治水預算我增加了159億達到550億那時候增加這個錢我就是希望潮也許不是這麼具體我們希望潮不要今年修了上半年修下半年又壞海豐來又壞大水來又壞能夠從有系統性的治水從上游整治一直到下游能夠排出這樣整個系統來處理"},{"start":27197.478,"end":27222.099,"text":"我希望能夠朝這個方向來做,謝謝委員提供這個。 院長我覺得不然經濟部、水利署或者是農業部也好,我覺得都應該更大程度來參考這個淨自然工法,我這邊有幾個期待啦。 院長其實最近我們看到行政院也在籌組水及永續,流域永續的小組。 是由,我目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來做召集喔。 我自己很希望我們能夠把這個河川復育的工作跟目標,"},{"start":27223.24,"end":27250.351,"text":"可以放入到這個永續推動小組這是一個院級的小組我目前知道是政委有開過會了那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要由行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個做一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張"},{"start":27251.531,"end":27266.327,"text":"我們看到其實包括像美國他們有所謂的健康流域計畫他們有幾個重要的地景、地形、棲地、水質、水溫、生態狀態幾個很重要的指標來評估什麼樣是一個健康的流域我們希望能夠參考這些國際上面的做法"},{"start":27266.687,"end":27294.707,"text":"那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說"},{"start":27295.808,"end":27322.361,"text":"未來4年我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川,達成這個所謂河川富裕的工作,去一步一步的完成剛才說健康流域的指標。那這個政策的目標如果出來的話,不管是農業部,不管是經濟部,下面的相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向做,我們就可以有一個新的治水,或者是新的水治理的一個新的局面,用的經費也更少,反而更健康。"},{"start":27323.568,"end":27350.567,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,就是有關你剛才所提到的一個河川的覆域裡面,其實他是用流域的概念從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川的部分,然後上游的野溪的部分其實會base在地景跟地貌,去設計到符合生態的一個規範的一個施工的工法,但是一個工法的改善,我會再跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念,我們會去訂出大概年度上我們需要處理多少個"},{"start":27351.107,"end":27351.147,"text":"兩位部長"},{"start":27385.674,"end":27388.336,"text":"謝謝洪森漢委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長和相關首長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第13位賴會員委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請院長。麻煩。"},{"start":27413.217,"end":27413.597,"text":"請經濟部部長及國發會主委備詢。"},{"start":27432.398,"end":27454.833,"text":"還是要跟院長說加油因為我們知道今天中午的這個總預算的一個協商是破局沒有破局的沒有破局還在努力還在努力所以是努力的非常的辛苦其實我們也是很害怕因為整體的總預算其實關係到我們區域裡頭有很多必須要推動的這一些"},{"start":27455.954,"end":27462.699,"text":"總統昨天在文告裡頭國慶的文告裡頭有特別講到就是說他要積極的推動智慧科技大南方的一個產業生態系其實對我們來講是一個很大的一個鼓勵為什麼"},{"start":27484.892,"end":27507.629,"text":"因為我想院長在今天早上就是要一路走下來每一個委員他的一個區域性的一個發展都不一樣那像郭國文委員他急著跳腳說太多的一個電廠在他那個地方其實我非常有感而發那早期在國民黨時代的時候那就是說"},{"start":27509.349,"end":27530.736,"text":"中北、清南那在小英總統在近期的時候其實南北已經慢慢的拉到了均衡了可是相對的在台南其實也需要有一個平衡的一個發展那本席的選區其實我們位在這個最偏北也是最沒有建設的一個地方那如果就是說"},{"start":27532.571,"end":27556.084,"text":"大台南要整體的一個發展的話在這裡想跟三位做一個探討那我們知道說臺灣目前最火紅的就是我們的那個護國神山台積電那台積電其實在7月份的時候那我們的黃仁勳來的時候他有特別講到就是說先進的製程的那個封章技術其實是需求量非常高的"},{"start":27557.585,"end":27575.133,"text":"臺積電的2.5D的一個先進的一個封裝,它其實關係的AI的一個關鍵。那我今天早上也跟部長跟主委那個事先做過了一個探討,顯然我是不是可以請部長就是說,"},{"start":27576.394,"end":27580.94,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":27592.089,"end":27607.245,"text":"報告委員我想這一個跟你的目標希望引進台積電到柳營這一帶我跟您報告就是說我們目前包括台南市政府抱邊的柳營工業區"},{"start":27608.186,"end":27609.466,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":27637.631,"end":27652.392,"text":"這個還有幾個條件,除了這個水、電、土地以外,人是非常重要的關鍵。 台積電先進封裝來講的話,他還是需要一些比較高階的工程師。"},{"start":27653.693,"end":27676.932,"text":"就是跟一般的過去傳統的這個封裝是不太一樣,所以臺南這邊一定要有一些這個人力上面可以補得上來,這是第一件事情。 第二件事情也就是說我們的這個園區必須要轉換成這個科學園區,這科學園區就變成是國科會在主導。"},{"start":27677.893,"end":27698.861,"text":"所以我建議委員是不是從這個方向去思考 第二個就是電的問題今天早上這個我想有另外一位委員也在講說我們臺南基本上目前的這個電廠但是經過我們盤點過以後 臺南現在的自主率只有25%"},{"start":27700.683,"end":27712.415,"text":"所以我們電其實是在臺南地區是不夠的那變成說如果說你有希望這樣的話我們倒是建議委員可以在您的這個選區裡面這個接受蓋一個電廠"},{"start":27717.301,"end":27739.893,"text":"那他就可以完全來支持這個300公頃的這樣的一個大型的科學園區他所需要用的水跟電那麼有滿豐沛的水跟這個豐富的電我相信這個台積電他們一定會選擇到你所希望去的地方"},{"start":27740.945,"end":27753.742,"text":"謝謝部長的一個提醒,我想在這裡跟院長做一個請教。 院長,你如果到台南來考察還是到台南來開會的時候,你最常會在嘉義還是在沙崙下車高鐵?"},{"start":27756.499,"end":27782.615,"text":"高鐵、嘉義、台南北邊或是南邊那我想你應該有很多時間就是說即使你到了比較中間的一個地方散化那你也會在嘉義,嘉義這個點下車那相對的就是說也針對的這個題目就是要跟院長做一個探討就是說不管是土地、交通、人才"},{"start":27783.255,"end":27807.864,"text":"其實我想在這個地方就是說不管是封測場還是說一個那個科學園區我覺得我這個地方它有非常適合的一個交通流量那在下一頁就是說我們來講的話臺堂在這個地方還有165公頃的一個空地那它的會線基地其實也是可以活用的"},{"start":27808.744,"end":27808.944,"text":"主席"},{"start":27829.582,"end":27829.622,"text":"主席"},{"start":27848.848,"end":27848.928,"text":"主席"},{"start":27864.295,"end":27885.862,"text":"因為南部的這個S郎帶是南部科技發展跟產業升級相當重要的那在裡面所有現在面臨到的問題我們都一併來考量但是委員特別關心是今天提到的這個大新營地區那我請國發會也把它處理一下那個經濟部甚至國科會如果有需要的話我們會把它很積極的來面對"},{"start":27888.763,"end":27908.699,"text":"院長,我再讓你看一張現有的這張圖,你看到的就是說我沿海我有很多力能的一個花店,那這個場區裡頭,然後我的水庫也非常的充足,我有台塘的陸寮水庫,我有白河水庫,徵溫水庫,還有那個就是我的烏山頭水庫。"},{"start":27909.94,"end":27933.8,"text":"這幾個水庫事實上還有就是交通,交通也非常的便利,我光是就是在國道三線,在這個區域裡頭有三個交流道,有水上、柳營還有就是六甲的交流道,那甚至就是說我還有台37線的一個延伸在海邊,那事實上還有86,其實它這個交通是四通八達的。"},{"start":27934.52,"end":27960.652,"text":"四通八達的其實我這個地方因為它後續發展了所以它其實有更好的一個空間有更好的一個規劃可以來做就是說我還在這裡還是特別請院長就是說針對的這整體的一個發展我們希望加入就是智慧科技大南方產業的一個生態生態系來講的話我這個地方其實是最適合的"},{"start":27961.032,"end":27961.052,"text":"國發會議委員"},{"start":27981.714,"end":28008.595,"text":"臺積電這些單位談過那因為他們也要考慮到整個地能不能達到時程目標第二個跟郭部長講的一樣就是他們希望是在科學園區所以因為有時程跟這個環評時程的問題所以是不是這樣子下個禮拜我帶著這個國科會跟這個經濟部的主管我們一起到您辦公室來討論細節期待我想科技的最後一塊拼圖"},{"start":28011.458,"end":28024.586,"text":"這個就是S狼帶的最後一塊拼圖有賴儀就是院長、部長還有主委的一個協助,非常謝謝。那接著要跟院長共同的來討論這一次台米颱風造成的這個我這個選區的一個重創。"},{"start":28027.368,"end":28041.321,"text":"七月下旬的一個台米颱風造成我這個整個曾文溪以北西北地區的產業的一個重創那我在這裡也非常謝謝就是院長多次的就是到我的選區裡頭來"},{"start":28042.842,"end":28044.243,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":28062.179,"end":28084.295,"text":"我們很多很多的一個市民點滴在心頭在這裡也非常謝謝謝謝就是院長那我想就是今年的就是總預算應該是講明年的總預算我們知道又多增加了一百五十幾億那當然就是我們看到總統看到你也看到了團隊也看到了就是淹水的一個經費的一個不足"},{"start":28084.995,"end":28108.686,"text":"那在現狀裡頭我在這裡那個部長你可以那個經理部長你請回我最主要就是要再請教我們的農業部長就是說整個巴掌溪的一個潰堤那在清一的一個過程裡頭因為我們知道持續又來了幾個颱風大大小小颱風可是後續後續怎麼樣去完成它"},{"start":28109.446,"end":28132.384,"text":"那這個也是就是說,我們一直希望就是農業部積極的來協助。 一定,那裡陰雷60公頃變成一塊塊,全部都是平的,全部都是,整個一基都是平的。 所以就是說在這個治水的過程裡頭,我們是不是需要就是說,"},{"start":28133.345,"end":28156.974,"text":"大家 農業部也很幫忙 農業部這個錢已經到位了 那就是說台南市政府也積極的在那個搶修那我是不是可以請那個就是說做一個建議我們希望就是說採用多元的一個治水的一個手段 那我們希望希望就是說都敢旗下強化就是區域的黃紅能量"},{"start":28158.494,"end":28173.343,"text":"黃紅的能量,我想農業部長你是內行的,在我們現行的一個做法裡定期的清衣還是合穿的整治,提案的強化,我們印證在巴掌溪這個黃紅的措施裡,我們希望"},{"start":28173.683,"end":28195.119,"text":"是不是可以增加大型的一個新流域還是說增設它比較大的滯洪池甚至就是說我們傳統那個黃洪用的這個濃湯就是杯湯這種早期的時候其實在農業裡面這是最好的一個防治淹水的一個方式有沒有比較好的一個方式就是說可以把這個淹水的問題徹底來解決呢"},{"start":28197.84,"end":28205.641,"text":"我跟那個委員報告就是說針對巴掌西這邊這次的一個一個議題以後造成的這些農地流失"},{"start":28206.746,"end":28227.857,"text":"會後續會重新整治的過程裡面就像您剛才講的就是說有一些滯洪池是在地的滯洪是必須要的去避免影響到周遭的這些這些居民的部分那另外怎麼把水還沒有進到我們的農田的時候把它分流這個部分我想我們跟經濟部水利署已經已經在一些研議後續的一個規劃"},{"start":28229.198,"end":28256.284,"text":"好謝謝部長那我想說你已經很快的進入了狀況就是農業的一個淹水一個積極的一個處理的方式那針對的這個低窪的地區在這裡我要拜託這個院長責成農業部針對低窪地區的這個滋洪池還有就是防災用的這個農業的皮塘是不是有可能把它變成就是我們多樣的一個防水的一個新的新的一個那個"},{"start":28258.124,"end":28273.949,"text":"新的一個方法在這裡要特別拜託那個院長那接著跟院長再討論一個農業的議題這個農業的環境污染的一個問題院長你你你吃不吃臭豆腐吃了臭豆腐加不加青菜"},{"start":28276.209,"end":28301.223,"text":"加辣椒會加我想這個因人而異啦每一個人有些人認為說臭豆腐是很香有些人是認為說這個味道特別的濃不喜歡那其實工廠的會氣跟畜牧業的一個養殖場產生的一個那個空氣空氣的一個味道哪一個比較臭其實是工廠的會氣臭還是畜牧場的養殖場會氣臭"},{"start":28302.344,"end":28302.484,"text":"主席"},{"start":28360.905,"end":28361.066,"text":"主席"},{"start":28990.339,"end":28990.579,"text":"徐欣怡委員"},{"start":29021.206,"end":29022.647,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢徐委員好卓院長好今天本席有15分鐘會跟院長討論兩大議題第一大議題呢給院長猜一下是本屆朝野共識最高"},{"start":29049.673,"end":29053.315,"text":"國土計劃法立法院的聲音是最真實的。 朝野超過70幾位以上的委員都贊成。"},{"start":29079.042,"end":29084.038,"text":"要延後,延後來施行。 那所以這個院長您"},{"start":29087.573,"end":29112.628,"text":"國土計劃法是在第8屆的時候通過的,當時本席就是第一位提案的委員,當初是邱文彥委員,他也是本席的好朋友,他提出來,我是第一個連署的。當時這個案有邱文彥委員,還有林淑芬委員以及行政院三個版本。"},{"start":29113.821,"end":29137.072,"text":"到現在當初邱文彥委員的提案委員 剩下本席到11屆跟蘇清泉委員。林淑芬委員的提案委員目前到11屆還有8位。其實本席講這一段就是要表達 我們都是支持國土計劃法。"},{"start":29138.152,"end":29164.245,"text":"而且這個理想崇高的這樣的一個國土計畫我們都非常認同因為我們當初第8屆就是憂慮國土殘破被破壞殘破不堪而且沒有規劃的這種憂慮所以我們才會這樣子支持而且提案來促成這個國土計畫但是過去8年在整個的推動"},{"start":29165.927,"end":29176.188,"text":"實施的過程﹖不算實施﹖推動的過程﹖不知道出了什麼問題﹖ 乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共識﹖"},{"start":29177.475,"end":29201.971,"text":"在上個會期到這個會期目前有十幾位的朝野立委都提出來希望可以延後首先本席想請教院長現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙表面上我們看到九個縣市沒有交功能分區圖實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎?"},{"start":29203.915,"end":29211.277,"text":"是,是,就是因為對農民的傷害太大,對農民的傷害太大,所以大家會覺得說,我們這個國土計劃法,它整個的配套,各方面考量還不夠。"},{"start":29231.122,"end":29251.21,"text":"就要施行的話對農民傷害太大。所以首先第一個本席要特別請問院長如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物那當然條件是不夠的對但是目前我們的農業發展區尤其第一類第二類"},{"start":29252.352,"end":29253.392,"text":"現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式?"},{"start":29272.6,"end":29273.56,"text":"所以部長的意思是現況這種情況是有改善嗎?"},{"start":29294.905,"end":29310.269,"text":"對,就是過去的特農的地區,會一直持續地去建設這種水源的進入。但是現在我們在各縣市,甚至本席所在的縣市,我們發現這個問題沒有解決。"},{"start":29312.667,"end":29329.573,"text":"二、有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題?因為農民也非常憂慮,氣候變遷有的時候今天的糧田經過一個颱風或是一個氣候各方面的變化,我可能也是就會發生沒有水源而荒廢。"},{"start":29330.578,"end":29359.183,"text":"可是農民恐慌他覺得農一農二一劃定終生這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎?我跟委員報告不管是劃在農一或農二就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的跟現在是一模一樣的部分所以後續的我們對於農民本身的一些支持也是一樣的那有差異的就是像您說的如果劃在農一的時候他沒有水源的話我們會優先去興建"},{"start":29360.023,"end":29388.899,"text":"所以你畫在農業的話我們更希望它是一個集團的一個栽培那是不是你新建確定OK你才實施還是你國土計畫法實施了它就是沒有水源這一塊你們要去思考接著本席要講第三點因為時間的關係我們現在農業經營的形式多元所以國土計畫法實施以後呢大多數的農業休閒地區或農場它會被畫為國土保育區"},{"start":29389.739,"end":29397.708,"text":"那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。 舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。 請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?"},{"start":29409.187,"end":29436.525,"text":"我認為比例會非常非常低。大概多少?你猜一下。我不敢猜,比例會非常低。對,不到10%。所以有沒有配套措施來確保我們這個它的經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃?特別就是說,農業經營高附加價值以及多元化,不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎?那國土計畫法對這個好像無視。"},{"start":29439.307,"end":29458.368,"text":"就是農業不只是生產而已,農業還有農村,所以我們在整個國家希望工程裡面,我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。那特別剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分,是未來在我們的鄉規、鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節。"},{"start":29459.349,"end":29464.43,"text":"接著本席這個是這個行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題那接著本席要特別在替農民發聲就是"},{"start":29488.359,"end":29514.706,"text":"我們農民啊他感到非常不平的就是說都市計畫下的10萬公頃農地可以作為城鄉發展區但是呢整個國家要糧食安全農業生產國家永續的責任就由少數農業縣的農民農地來承擔這個不公平啊等於我們政府把責任甩鍋給農民這第一點第二點"},{"start":29518.831,"end":29545.388,"text":"我們的農民他們都很有熱忱而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業但是農民無法單兵作戰剛剛部長也有講到農民需要的是政府的支持、支援作為後盾所以剛剛您說的農村的規劃發展現代化農業的基礎建設還有它的這種產銷管道的整合其實都是穩定農民農業的最基礎"},{"start":29548.53,"end":29577.238,"text":"但是在整個國土計劃施行起來呢,我們感覺農民他獨自承擔,他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任,這個不公平。因為有的時候,我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解,現在沒有錯,有些地方政府這個分區圖送上來,有些沒有送,可是基層有些送上來可能連基層他都還不知道這個國土計劃法的實施。"},{"start":29578.92,"end":29605.701,"text":"這個就是跟我們本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過我們的部長不能像這個教改啊教改你跟那個現實面你第一線的你都不了解那所以現在農民呢他們當然也很擔心這個剛剛提的一化定終生一化變永恆那變成他們的整個被限制住那"},{"start":29606.898,"end":29624.244,"text":"民眾、農民對政府也不是很有信心,也怕政府欺騙他,所以農民有他的困境。 農民看天吃飯,我想院長跟部長都知道,收成不穩定,那即便大豐收,他也有可能被壓低收購價格。"},{"start":29625.524,"end":29639.311,"text":"那所以呢 農民也面臨務農人口流失所以我們的國土計劃法保護農地沒有保障農民權益 這樣是不行的所以是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償"},{"start":29641.092,"end":29667.158,"text":"可以來實施,有沒有?我跟妳說明齁,其實在國土計畫實施與否的另外一件事情,我們已經持續針對整個的農民或是基礎建設,我們有一套完整的包括還有金融的支持,還有一些對地給付的這些堆疊的方式,包括生態的部分,我們已經有完善的一個推動,現在已經在推動,現在已經在推動,那未來在國土計畫在做區隔以後,"},{"start":29667.618,"end":29691.124,"text":"我們會針對特定的區位有一個比較更多的像生態給付的部分我們會做一些提高我們希望整個配套完善才上路老實說10月才推動真的太慢了不是我們我剛才講的這些支持性的這些包括基礎建設包括金融支持包括設施設備的一個補助其實我們多年來一直在做"},{"start":29692.113,"end":29706.755,"text":"本席也要請教院長,針對這第一個議題我要趕快結束了。我們這個整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案,包含修法?"},{"start":29708.305,"end":29731.487,"text":"而且國土,我要特別跟院長來提醒,國土計畫,計畫的是全國全民的國土。 農民何其沉重,要擔此重任。我們一定要為農民做好最完善的,不管他未來的保育的補償,還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題,一定要解決。"},{"start":29732.554,"end":29759.401,"text":"所以院長可以嗎?身為一個行政院的院長,我本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實謙卑的面對問題。所以我們希望為了國家的永續,國土計劃法可以來施行。請院長審慎的考慮是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案。我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲,但是"},{"start":29760.802,"end":29781.169,"text":"明明就有13個縣市送過來了,我也必須對這13個縣市要有所了解,因為在國土計劃法45條裡面,他又說全國要一併公告,也不能割裂,所以現在這個當中,但是您說的,如果要對國土計劃內容做檢討修法的話,那是一個方向,但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。"},{"start":29782.189,"end":29810.094,"text":"對,現在問題所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案,我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。好,接著本席剩下的時間呢,要提第二個,第二個大議題,那這個大議題當然相信很多委員也提過,就是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫,這裡面也包含了竹科三期的計畫,尤其以新竹縣市為中心,向北向南,苗栗桃園整個來延伸。"},{"start":29811.235,"end":29828.412,"text":"這個未來會是匯聚半導體以及AI人工智慧等尖端科技人才,而且希望能夠讓桃竹苗可以媲美美國的矽谷、亞利桑那等全球最重要的半導體跟創新科技聚落。"},{"start":29830.1,"end":29858.147,"text":"很多人都知道我們這個科技整個要發展尤其AI它用電量是非常非常大的本期在整個大矽谷計畫裡沒有看到新增的有相對應電力的規劃尤其其中有一個科學園區三期整個台灣科學園區新竹科學園區那現在又有科學園區三期"},{"start":29860.153,"end":29881.829,"text":"這個大矽谷計畫它可以說是過去我們有台積電護國神山,未來如果能夠整個發展起來發展得好,那是護國群山,台灣的護國群山。所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦?很多的公司,我把它解完,很多的公司它為了能夠配合國際的規範,它都買綠電。"},{"start":29883.01,"end":29891.668,"text":"可是綠電在晚上很可能會沒有辦法所以就仰賴火力發電那這個部分相信"},{"start":29892.731,"end":29908.482,"text":"院長、部長都知道,現在夜間缺電的情況很嚴重。晚上的部分我們用儲電來解決,儲能電。對,但是你儲能,你到晚上綠電的儲能現在有辦法儲存多少?"},{"start":29908.482,"end":29908.522,"text":"有啊。"},{"start":29913.873,"end":29935.278,"text":"報告委員因為這是國安會在規劃的我們在整體的配套包括水跟電都有跟經濟部做過充分的討論那我們也都有對未來用電的需求所以靠儲能就有辦法有沒有考慮有沒有考慮核能會不會考慮謝謝委員我們列入參考我們考慮謝謝"},{"start":29941.152,"end":29942.615,"text":"好,謝謝徐信義委員的資訊,也謝謝卓院長各部會所長的備詢,謝謝。"},{"start":29950.916,"end":29971.985,"text":"十五號莊瑞雄委員、十六號賴瑞榮委員、十七號陳庭菲委員、十八號吳啟明委員之質詢。 均以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄,刊登公報。 在接下來,我們請登記第19號何新淳委員質詢。"},{"start":29982.044,"end":29985.838,"text":"謝謝主席院長我們是不是請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29994.964,"end":30020.581,"text":"委員長今天很多委員都很關心這個中午吃的和解飯聽說破局了那破局的原因在於正節點是在於這個原住民的這個禁法補償條例那禁法補償我是想請問一下院長你在今天中午的和解飯這個參會上真的說過行政院沒對禁法補償提復議案"},{"start":30022.682,"end":30025.983,"text":"這已是我對原住民的仁慈你有講過這句話嗎委員這句話問我不如問韓院長韓院長還在現場嘛對不對院長我們卓院長有講這一句話嗎那我來說我如果說錯韓院長可以隨時指正我我今天在"},{"start":30051.135,"end":30069.991,"text":"參會當中我的結論是說我這一段話我不想在備詢台上說但是有人把它講出來了所以我就把它說出來我說進法補償這個法通過之後很多人認為我們站在憲政分立的立場上行政院必須提復議"},{"start":30071.465,"end":30090.897,"text":"但我堅持不願意我覺得我於心不忍對原住民造成這樣的對立所以我於心不忍這兩句話這句話難道是忍辭的施捨嗎所以總院長這個剛剛還是你還原今天中和解犯犯局上真正的"},{"start":30092.466,"end":30118.206,"text":"一字不漏的言議。 是,我是這樣講,我說我非常不願意,因為我於心不忍,我真的是不想造成這樣的對立。 是,因為我不願意看到對於禁法補償的這一件事情,變成是在野黨背革整個中央政府總預算的一個理由。 現在變成說,用我說我是對原住民的人質,好像我是施捨,我從來不會有這樣的想法。"},{"start":30118.942,"end":30121.044,"text":"我相信總院長絕對不會有這樣的想法。所以造謠就是不對?"},{"start":30138.168,"end":30162.106,"text":"我要講清楚到底是誰講出去,難怪...我覺得是就是不是就不是,而且今天和解犯的這個犯局裡面不是只有韓院長跟卓院長,還有其他人。那現場的每一個人都可以來還原,而且呢來肯認到底剛剛卓院長的那每一個字、每一...那一句到底是不是..."},{"start":30162.546,"end":30191.267,"text":"我也謝謝這個韓院長人稱公道主持中立還有我們秘書長也在現場我再重複一次我再重複一次我說很多人希望我在那個時候提出復議我說我非常不願意因為我於心不忍就是會造成這樣的對立我真的不願意這句話絕對不能說是我對原住民的仁慈好像有施捨的樣子"},{"start":30192.881,"end":30207.411,"text":"這個話如果從高金委員﹚絕對不難如果高金委員的嘴巴講出來我就要希望是誰告訴他的那就是破壞整個今天中午吃飯的氣氛如果沒有人告訴他這兩個字從何而來憑空而出"},{"start":30208.531,"end":30237.726,"text":"為的就是要製造另一場紛亂而已是所以院長我今天的質詢第一部分為什麼要問這個第一個我們希望真的要和解我們希望政府的總預算案要趕快的來進入立法院我們希望趕快三讀通過有很多很多的預算都必須要被執行這第一個第二個我們認為這個和解犯的犯局裡面這個很多人都在現場是可以作證那到底為何會有"},{"start":30238.326,"end":30264.345,"text":"高經委員這樣子的一個誤解也好或者是他的解讀是這麼的惡意負面也好我覺得這個第一個對政黨的和解總預算的和解沒有幫助第二個我覺得也不應該讓原住民來背上這樣子的一個罪過其實原住民的權益我相信從中央到地方每一位不分黨派的委員絕對全力的支持跟捍衛"},{"start":30265.666,"end":30266.148,"text":"沒有錯,我說"},{"start":30274.676,"end":30297.054,"text":"也許啦在這邊動之以情的講話我都深受感動但是原則不能破壞兩院之間的院計分立不能破壞行政院負責的是制定編列預算大院負責的是審查預算如果一個法律就能通過一筆預算不在預算的大小而在這個精神這個原則之所在我必須嚴守這樣的立場"},{"start":30297.814,"end":30299.756,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":30313.143,"end":30317.206,"text":"那我們請韓院長要主持公道我希望能夠要有下一次的和解飯"},{"start":30333.516,"end":30351.239,"text":"而且我也希望能夠呢真的在和解的氛圍之下趕快讓總預算進入我們立法院我們實質來審查那個才是真正對人民交代對人民負責嘛對不對院長所以誰願意希望趕快進行有誰在破壞應該看得很清楚"},{"start":30352.206,"end":30367.896,"text":"好 謝謝院長的說明我相信這應該非常的清楚非常的明白而且還原今天中午和解飯裡面的每一個字每一句話那接下來我要請教院長我關心很多其他的民生的議題"},{"start":30369.097,"end":30390.558,"text":"我之前在交通委員會上有跟交通部在提到這個外送平台這個運費的法制化那我提到這個目的是第一個消費者外送員還有小店家的權益問題那你知道交通部現在有訂了一個外送費率然後希望各縣市一定質疑而且預計11月要上路院長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":30391.138,"end":30416.245,"text":"現在在公告期間,也希望各界來提供各種更好的意見來補足他,如果他有私律上必須周全的地方,也都願意來接受外界各地的意見,這個是公告。我現在是提醒院長,這個會有部會之間的不協調,交通部現在預告了,預告了之後當然希望各界來提意見,但是在另外一方面,"},{"start":30417.915,"end":30445.954,"text":"我在立法院推動的是這個外送平臺的運費必須透明化合理化透明化合理化就來自於剛剛院長講的在交通部現在預告的執法規裡面希望有更多各界來提供意見我們希望讓它更透明化合理化但是呢公民會主委已經站在你旁邊了兩大外送平臺送過要申請併購那還未立案但是但是正在補件"},{"start":30448.114,"end":30476.352,"text":"我希望這個行政院跟公平會這個態度立場要明確啦為什麼要明確如果他在補件成功之後立案之後那就要開始審酌他到底允不允許合併但是在這個還沒有確定有沒有合併之前呢交通部的費率已經預告那會產生什麼問題院長第一個公平會的委員人事案"},{"start":30477.313,"end":30505.083,"text":"我們有幾個委員任期快到了那如果接下來在今年下半年這一個我們的人事案呢如果沒有辦法順利的推動的話沒有辦法順利的過關的話那公平會的功能可能受到很大的影響那未來因應如果呢像兩大外送平台他們要合併的案子補件補完成了送進來了可是卻碰到沒有辦法審"},{"start":30506.343,"end":30508.924,"text":"公平會有4位委員任期到,我們必須在10月底之前把這個人選能夠確定下來,目前正在作業當中。"},{"start":30526.033,"end":30538.829,"text":"那至於說兩大平台之間的問題,我想公平會一定是基於公平交易的原則,一方面保護這個消費者,一方面保護這些業者,業者是那些運送的人的權益。"},{"start":30541.497,"end":30567.788,"text":"這樣的情況底下但是如果讓它形成一個壟斷對社會壟斷的行為我想在公平會的公平交易當中是一個相當矛盾的那這個部分我請主委來說明等一下請主委說明之前院長你剛剛講我們公平會委員的人事案你10月要開始作業已經在作業了已經開始作業10月底之前那院長你有信心說在我們今年年底之前我們所有人事案可以抵定嗎"},{"start":30569.994,"end":30598.317,"text":"我當然很希望能夠照時間走那公平會這個因為比較沒有政治性我們也希望能夠在人選的選擇上比較沒有政治性我們希望人選一出來的時候我們立法院、朝野大家不同政黨都能夠支持我為什麼要這樣子講因為如果有人不支持如果我們公平會的人事沒辦法通過的話會有一個空窗期那如果在這個空窗期的期間這個外送平台的合併的案子"},{"start":30599.398,"end":30621.306,"text":"立案送進來審議,結果我們公評會沒辦法審,在空轉,那到法定審查的期限如果過的話,那會不會產生還沒有審,也沒辦法審的情況之下,審查期限過了,那外送平台在沒有審的情況之下就合併了,有沒有這樣的可能性,主委?"},{"start":30623.049,"end":30638.446,"text":"跟委員回報,我們根據公平教育法的規定,這個結合案件有一個審查的期間,這個期間過了,如果公平會沒有做出決定,那這個結合的事業就可以直接去結合了。對阿院長,我現在擔心的是這個阿。"},{"start":30639.467,"end":30665.133,"text":"在我們目前審核的過程當中因為資料還沒有齊備等到資料齊備之後我們對於這個結合之後結合事業會不會濫用市場的地位去做價格的決定這也是我們很重要的考量因素我今天關心兩個點說給院長聽請院長能夠關注第一個點如果公平會的人事案沒有辦法如期及時來通過"},{"start":30667.193,"end":30690.712,"text":"那會有一個空窗期而這個空窗期的期間如果事業體外送平台他們兩家的合併案案件補件完成送進來了沒有人可以審查程序沒有辦法進行在公平交易法的法定的期限審查期限一過之後剛剛主委講的事業申請的事業體可以進行"},{"start":30692.045,"end":30694.046,"text":"第二,我擔心的"},{"start":30721.206,"end":30747.837,"text":"這個是立場的宣示啦兩大外送平台的這個併購剛剛主委講的啊我們在審查就是他會不會壟斷市場嘛如果真的讓他併了之後一家獨大就是獨佔啊一家獨大就是獨佔啊那什麼小店家擔心消費者擔心大家擔心什麼市場被壟斷外送員擔心什麼他沒保障因為呢只有一家他們最大說了算消費者擔心什麼會漲價"},{"start":30749.622,"end":30770.271,"text":"我是堅決反對啦 我不知道行政院院長你的態度勒剛剛已經跟委員報告過 我們在公平教育的原則底下 行程對社會壟斷的行為都違反 都跟這個原則相對矛盾 所以我相信公平會現在或是未來的委員 一定會本著良心跟專業來做這樣的判斷"},{"start":30772.281,"end":30773.462,"text":"各界的意見各界的權益"},{"start":30795.351,"end":30820.763,"text":"應該受保障,不可以被壟斷,不可以被獨佔。這是民眾所關心的,拜託主委,拜託院長。我們會盡快把這個人選送到大院來,希望時間能夠短。我也希望在野黨不要擋,這是關心民生的議題,希望能夠順利的來通過。最後一分多鐘,我請教院長,其實我們很擔心什麼?少子女化的對策因應問題。"},{"start":30822.452,"end":30850.272,"text":"我們知道在賴總統不管他在8月15號他的喊話或者是今年的國慶日他說要跨世代的照顧那其中一個就是對於年輕家庭跟孩子因為我們行政院投入了很多的資源就是希望因應台灣的少子女化那要搶救台灣的生產力一個不算少兩個恰恰好三個多麼好院長這個是我們的目標對不對那"},{"start":30852.436,"end":30877.486,"text":"問題是少子女化的威力太強大了,我們今年是農年,農年寶寶國慶寶寶,昨天國慶日接生聽說很冷,挽救不了出生率,而且推估我們今年農年可能出生率就跟去年差不多,人數也跟去年差不多,院長你對少子女化的對策有沒有加碼的空間,院不應該再加碼?"},{"start":30878.183,"end":30900.223,"text":"好,我們最近很積極在討論現在這個階段的人口政策,甚至我們要提出的是人口的對策,我們想要一整套的計畫,那這個國發會已經很積極在討論了,那中間好幾項目前都還在思考的過程當中,從大家多鼓勵大家多婚多生,但是政府要做更多的公托養育。"},{"start":30908.999,"end":30932.68,"text":"好,謝謝何欣淳委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長的備詢,謝謝。接下來,登記第20號張雅玲委員﹖第21號陳俊宇委員﹖這質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄,刊登公報。再接下來,登記第22號馬文君委員,請質詢。"},{"start":30947.394,"end":30951.237,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我想最近其實還是有非常多的草野的委員共同還是在關心國土計劃法的部分。其實國土計劃法不只只有農一、農二的使用,"},{"start":30976.915,"end":30979.078,"text":"國土計畫法當時大家為什麼認同說應該要去推動很重要的一個原因是因為有些法令其實都已經是非常非常久了"},{"start":30997.438,"end":30998.981,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":31012.688,"end":31012.888,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":31042.668,"end":31056.497,"text":"森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在,除非它已經損壞掉了,你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法,它有一個82721,如果在這個時間之前,"},{"start":31057.998,"end":31060.34,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":31088.378,"end":31090.079,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":31109.833,"end":31111.495,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":31126.351,"end":31150.808,"text":"我想請教一下那時候我們在108年為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家那時候因為早期台灣的發展尤其是中小企業都是大家可能自己家戶自己去推動發展一直到現在他可能具有一些相關的規模或者在農地上存在的這些工廠他在105年的時候我們還特別修法讓他通過"},{"start":31156.433,"end":31163.75,"text":"有20年的大限可是在國土計劃法施行以後這些怎麼辦因為你在"},{"start":31165.37,"end":31176.739,"text":"國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理,現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃,"},{"start":31193.231,"end":31216.684,"text":"那個有些你在森林法裡面他很多就是在林地上面他不會是聚落如果像你像國土計畫我們國產署裡面有很多也不是在聚落裡面啊所以跟我們的聚落是無關的現在有很多他其實就是分散的所以沒有辦法像部長說的這個是可以解決不可能如果可以解決之前就會解決了"},{"start":31217.765,"end":31242.32,"text":"所以他要變更其實是更加的困難,所以這個部分不像部長想的那麼容易,接下來還來第二部分就是公服法的部分以公服法的部分的一個執行跟現在不管你化為農一農二,那原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠他已經納管以後,那以非屬低污染的部分我們會持續的輔導"},{"start":31243.18,"end":31260.09,"text":"那除非他是高度污染的我們才會讓他簽上在農業地區大概有1100多家我們知道我們知道他是低污染的才可以符合那至少如果說還有這1000多家我想請教一下因為你在國土計畫法推行以後其實他在第38條"},{"start":31263.113,"end":31275.165,"text":"從事未符合國土功能分區及分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者,由該管職銜市縣市主管機關處行為人新台幣100萬以上500萬以下罰款。"},{"start":31279.282,"end":31286.233,"text":"這個接下來第二條第二項第二款也是相關的就是如果沒有按照這樣的情況他處30萬以上100萬150萬以下相關的38條全部都是罰則而且"},{"start":31294.745,"end":31295.265,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31321.015,"end":31321.415,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31351.656,"end":31353.679,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":31367.139,"end":31367.359,"text":"主席"},{"start":31397.921,"end":31409.2,"text":"我跟委員報告相關的國土計畫裡面他有特別的規定就是可以保障從來是使用的部分包括你農牧用地的話就算你在國保區你是農牧用地"},{"start":31412.916,"end":31433.001,"text":"哪一條?國土計畫法裡面從來已經使用的是哪一條?因為我們已經有把它全部看過,就是如果已經有衝突,你在這裡你第38條的法則裡面很清楚的寫到,如果沒有依照你的分區使用的這樣相關的規定,它就是要罰。"},{"start":31434.261,"end":31462.674,"text":"我跟委員報告我會後可以提供你就是國土計畫有一個非常大的精神就是保障從來是使用的部長部長我們所有我們在我們民主法治的國家然後你要修這個法你要施行我們還是希望他在法裡面可以清楚的可以表示如果可以的話那些公服法裡面的工廠那他們也可以啊他們存在已經好幾十年本來是違規的還是違規不是說違規的在那個國土計畫完以後就變成合法的"},{"start":31463.305,"end":31482.786,"text":"不是啊 當然不是 可是你是衝突的嘛我現在就是說你今天我們在105年成立的這個公服法以這個來看他現在你本來應該要給他20年的時間可是現在顯然如果他在農一農二上面因為現在更去嚴格以前可能用公服法去"},{"start":31483.567,"end":31484.868,"text":"這個跟委員報告,就是農民合法的權利不會受到影響。"},{"start":31507.488,"end":31515.414,"text":"這個在農業用地裡面我們已經把它納進內政部納進國土計劃法的施行審査草案裡面做沒有?"},{"start":31515.414,"end":31522.159,"text":"合法的使用我們沒有意見我現在講的是其他的你為什麼會訂森林法585271為什麼會訂國產法82721為什麼會訂公福法"},{"start":31527.383,"end":31554.034,"text":"說讓他20年可以讓他在低污染的情況之下可以去辦理合法登記給他20年的時間就是因為在這一段時間裡面其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料因為有些人在民國20年甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡那時候沒有國民政府那時候那塊土地沒有編訂沒有地號人家已經住在那裡所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的我們後來"},{"start":31555.555,"end":31556.295,"text":"我強調一下是合法的才會有保障喔"},{"start":31584.192,"end":31584.552,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31599.818,"end":31625.717,"text":"本來因為他早期他在蓋的時候他沒有他就沒有辦法取得這樣子的一個建造資料或者他的建造的或者始造的資料所以他會有一些相關的困難而且你在農一農二你現在把他訂上去他以前可能不是被編訂成這樣那你現在把他編訂這樣他房子已經在了可是你沒有任何的配套措施我要講的是這個部分所以部長"},{"start":31626.477,"end":31653.256,"text":"不要講合法的合法的農地農一農二就是表示現在上面都是種東西的啦你政府政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候你都有辦法讓他變成合法可是人家早已經存在的你現在沒有辦法幫他解決你倉促的施行你就會造成很多人無家可歸或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠那違背了當初你公服法通過的一個精神"},{"start":31653.456,"end":31662.109,"text":"國土法如果說你有納管的時候就會讓他隨著納管的部分除非說你沒有被納管的部分國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他非法以後國土計畫完了以後會變成合法沒有這一條"},{"start":31668.578,"end":31671.02,"text":"了解這個我想我們後續我們會把一些疑問我們會做釐清"},{"start":31695.563,"end":31711.854,"text":"不用釐清把法給我們就好了因為你說有嘛你說可以保障嘛你要讓大家知道而且讓大家放心接下來我想要請教的是像經濟部在組無人機的聯盟希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元"},{"start":31718.719,"end":31729.444,"text":"經濟部日前也宣誓成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟,希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展。 我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做?"},{"start":31730.522,"end":31753.931,"text":"報告委員,我們現在的聯盟是由漢翔為主,臺灣的供應鏈大概有50家,技術是由工研院來接收。我們對美國跟對日本這兩個市場拋出我們合作的方向。跟委員報告,這兩個國家到2028年,"},{"start":31758.092,"end":31765.725,"text":"大概整個市場可以來到台幣大概5000億所以我們認為要達到這個2028年要達到300億應該是可以努力的"},{"start":31770.648,"end":31790.828,"text":"部長因為我想這是理想可是臺灣要建構這樣子的一個環境我覺得不困難臺灣的不管在我們所有的量能所有我們的技術等等要生產這些不困難可是我現在要提醒的是因為我們動用了很多的國防的資源"},{"start":31791.468,"end":31818.671,"text":"過去中科院其實我們投入非常多的研發經費我之前說100多億其實不止那如果連建想算進去建想他在我們的特別預算裡面他高達好幾百億如果我沒有記錯的時候是800億像這麼多投入的經費我們到底想要做什麼我們是美國的代工嗎剛剛我們聽到美國跟日本所有無人機的生產我們現在比較擔心的因為看起來這個主要是解決美國無人機自己製造的問題"},{"start":31819.412,"end":31819.432,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":31838.659,"end":31840.721,"text":"委員 臺灣有機會成為民族產業鏈 這個對我們來講 對全世界來講都"},{"start":31912.847,"end":31935.124,"text":"郭文貴議員,現在國訪的預算買軍用商規模登記,跟發布黨的預算是沒有關的。所以我們希望你國訪應該維護的案件,就要把它維護好。你要去發展無人機的產業,我們贊成,我們支持。"},{"start":31942.645,"end":31952.888,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢,謝謝,謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢,謝謝。接下來登記第23號劉建國委員質詢,以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄,刊登公報。再接下來請登記第24號羅廷偉委員質詢。"},{"start":31983.86,"end":32007.02,"text":"謝謝院長 有請我們卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢是 羅委員好院長好 今天最後一位 辛苦了不會院長 我想問你一句話 城市因河流而偉大 可以認同嗎"},{"start":32008.373,"end":32035.499,"text":"每一個有河流經過的城市都漂亮偉大而且具有觀光的價值我們看到許多進步的城市不管是國外跟國內包括國內也有基隆河、淡水河、愛河都是令我們非常稱羨那我必須在這邊很不客氣的跟你說您欠我們台中市預算您欠我們台中市建設一千億多的預算怎麼算?前瞻計畫中央補助地方總計大概五千多億"},{"start":32036.459,"end":32038.961,"text":"今天我想跟你分享本席來自台中中西東南區你有去過東區的樂成宮嗎?"},{"start":32059.822,"end":32078.871,"text":"應該有去過樂成宮非常有名喔我們旁邊有一個漢溪那今天我想跟你提到漢溪的整治以及柳川市旗當然還有老舊校舍的一個問題我想漢溪這個部分想跟您分享圖片可以看到我們目前正在做簡易的綠化但是源源不夠我們希望"},{"start":32079.631,"end":32098.325,"text":"任何因城市而偉大的這些河流我們都希望能夠投入大筆的預算來做相關的整治首先我要跟你談到柳川三期的計畫可以看到已經完工了當時花了將近2.5億元我們非常感謝中央地方一起來努力"},{"start":32099.065,"end":32114.534,"text":"那現在已經完工了,我們希望柳川市期我在上任的時候不斷地催促經濟部,但是都遲遲沒有下文,包括旱溪的整治,我也希望能夠跟你爭取一些經費。 這個部分,院長可以給我們一些回應嗎?"},{"start":32116.295,"end":32129.16,"text":"部長說明一下報告委員 旱溪的治理率已經達到了98.9%當然我知道為完成治理護岸在上游豐原區因為涉及民眾私有地"},{"start":32130.208,"end":32149.217,"text":"需要先完成協議 其餘均已達到保護標準部長您說到的那個部分是在豐原地方我在中西東南當然你說的這個治水率已經完成大概90幾%我現在希望的是不只是美化或者是和平公園這樣相關的一個建設我們也會看多次"},{"start":32149.737,"end":32174.813,"text":"那以漢溪來說,我們現在在做的是簡易綠化,都是希望能夠有清水設施,那包括柳川市旗,那這部分您可以給我回應一下嗎?我們有送計畫,但是這個計畫被中央打回槍,當然有可能是台中市政府水利局所撰寫的計畫不符合標準,我們極力地再來努力改編相關的計畫,但未來呢,你們願意可以協助嗎?部長"},{"start":32177.148,"end":32191.603,"text":"我們經濟部當然是水利署他會根據各地方政府送來的計畫然後評估然後我們一定會去落實啦如果符合這個要件的話應該是沒有沒有問題因為"},{"start":32193.345,"end":32219.378,"text":"我們這個行政院編列的這個預算我們都會下去實施啦那我想對這個整個的防水啊或者是防災我們都應該今天在這邊特別提出來柳川市期旱溪整治我希望兩位能夠先幫我登記起來會後我們再來詳細的討論但我要提到的是不管是前瞻計畫特別預算以及柳川市期這些都是延續型的建設我想"},{"start":32219.978,"end":32239.05,"text":"這些預算都不會受所謂的預算法來影響到,都會有所保護,我們希望能夠來做一個建設方面的探討,這部分來有請部長,可以嗎?可以,我們一定會跟地方政府好好的協商,如果說地方政府送來的沒有問題的話,我們當然是可以下去做,總之會有優先順序。"},{"start":32241.411,"end":32260.496,"text":"第二個要跟院長特別討論,老舊校舍的一個拆除一個問題,我想國內超過50歲的老舊校舍大概有2200多棟,超過30多歲的大概有8300多棟,我的選區中性國小就有所謂的老舊校舍,而且是沒有死照的。"},{"start":32260.996,"end":32275.252,"text":"我想9月30聯合報也有報導地方縣市政府教育局的官員也在講我們所編列行政院現在所編列的補助款分到各縣市一年能夠處理校舍大概在3到4所"},{"start":32275.993,"end":32300.96,"text":"我們列車帶改建的老舊校舍是破萬棟 要到什麼時候才能夠全數完整來改善我想國發是不是能夠幫忙協助這個部分當然拆除改建最重要的是經費我們還是希望行政院能夠編列特別預算這是最快速能夠解決方法的那列車中有破萬棟的老舊校舍 院長這個部分能不能編列特別預算有沒有考慮過"},{"start":32302,"end":32312.309,"text":"我們在上個月已經合訂了一個教育部送來的公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除重建計畫大概350億114年到117年350億那過去我們從98年到111年"},{"start":32319.383,"end":32336.761,"text":"也用了一千三百多億也改善了很多的校舍 院長我必須還是要給你打斷不好意思您所提供知道的資料有部分有誤我們可以看到這一千多億元是斑斑有平板斑斑有冷氣電力改善以及校舍以外一些比如說廁所"},{"start":32338.022,"end":32358.551,"text":"還有跑道來改善,老舊校舍實際補助的狀況是真的比較少,所以不要被教育部所提供的資料給混淆了,當然當然是美化數字。 三百五十億元我個人覺得還是有待改進,當然利益良善願意先三百五十億,我們當然給予鼓勵,但是我還是跟教育部說,太少了。"},{"start":32358.951,"end":32373.838,"text":"所以我希望國發能夠支持我希望行政院能夠編列特別預算在這個部分我必須拿出來繼續來跟您說明可以嗎?我們一起來努力為老舊校舍因為所有的孩子有14萬的學童都身處在這些危險的場域我們一起加油可以嗎?"},{"start":32375.116,"end":32389.867,"text":"我不敢說不可以但今年我們編預算就是沒有編特別預算我們希望預算正常化但未來可能有一些地方還是必須考量所以我說我們會納入一個考量的範圍當中我們想怎麼樣把事情做得更好"},{"start":32395.591,"end":32416.725,"text":"那我可以大膽直接跟您講350億不夠當然我們希望好可以更好要還要要更多我希望能夠為教育部發聲我也跟教育部部長說過他不敢要我幫他要350億元幫我在加碼幫所有的學童在加碼這個部分好謝謝委員加碼也請委員支持今年的預算我沒有編列預算的能力要靠您吶"},{"start":32418.347,"end":32425.739,"text":"三百五十億為教育、為小孩、為教育、為小朋友、學生,這個我想我們的立場完全一致。"},{"start":32428.362,"end":32450.983,"text":"再來我想剛剛我有聽到其他委員現在諮詢有關於這個外送平台的併購案大家都非常關心喔我想也探討了很多我就不細說了啦因為我都有聽到我想簡單跟您詢問一下就您個人的意見我想公平會的意義在什麼反壟斷希望他能夠公平那您個人覺得支不支持他何必"},{"start":32454.308,"end":32471.888,"text":"我個人的意見是希望我有一天我要透過這外送平台來買東西的時候我能夠有充分的選擇性而且我這個選擇性讓我能夠感覺到我是受到整個社會公平交易的保障的我希望每個人都跟我同樣受到這種保障"},{"start":32472.757,"end":32488.059,"text":"公平會主委,他沒有講得很清楚,但院長的意思已經讓您聽到略中一二,可以聽到他裡面涵蓋的意思嗎?主委回報主委,各界的意見我們都有收集,我知道你有收集,但在你旁邊"},{"start":32489.02,"end":32515.106,"text":"行政院院長講了他希望未來他點這個外送的時候可以有多元的選擇並且保障所有消費者外送員還有這個店家他們有這樣子的充分的權益這個部分我希望你能夠帶回公平會我希望你能夠慎重的考量我們反對合併我們擔心壟斷這個部分您旁邊的院長也有表態謝謝我們一定會慎重評估"},{"start":32516.431,"end":32517.799,"text":"好 再來 謝謝你的解讀 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":32521.26,"end":32549.68,"text":"再來我想跟院長討論這件事情那如何不要讓社會的弱勢沒有良好家庭背景的小孩子在求職環境上 輸在起跑點院長在前天10月9日我召開了記者會認人為親為律 太除不適任的官員其中我就有提到當天有三位施藥署我們發現有藥廠負責人的小孩有阻密的小孩"},{"start":32550.2,"end":32564.577,"text":"以及不符合任用資格卻因為有律委關心關切而任用的人事案已經過了三天了請問本席現在要怎麼處理我想問一下院長因為我完全得不到回應"},{"start":32565.538,"end":32592.512,"text":"根本就是苟廢火車,不當一回事,例行性的一個回覆首先,本席與三位是要贖的這些基層員工,完全不認識,也沒有任何的恩怨。記者會的目的就是希望政府帶頭給年輕人一個機會,而且是徵選公平的機會,而不是讓這些沒有背景的年輕人作為陪榜員。社會的弱勢,沒有良好家庭背景的小孩,在求職上、在就業上,就輸在起跑點。"},{"start":32593.172,"end":32611.671,"text":"再者本席要問跟那些人事有相關的這些人事案長官是憑著詮釋來相互幫忙攀附這些詮釋在此人事案上下其手互相掩護嗎?比如石耀淑署長、祖密藥品組組長"},{"start":32614.293,"end":32640.883,"text":"縱容此人事案的存在者要如何懲處殺雞儆猴。 我也希望能夠得到院長您的回覆本席再次強調我們應該要讓弱勢的孩子讓正常普通的家庭也有機會能夠在求職在這個就業的環境上在公務機關能夠有一個正常公平公正公開一個同一個起跑點。 院長您覺得呢?"},{"start":32641.872,"end":32656.344,"text":"好謝謝委員當天所提出的這個事件在媒體上跟我們都非常的重視但因為這兩天剛好國慶的年禮我下禮拜一定給委員一個答覆我三個原則第一個他如果任用資格不符標準絕對是違法"},{"start":32657.665,"end":32671.435,"text":"第二、他如果這個人任用資格沒有問題,但是他從事的業務跟他過去的相關有太接近的時候,我們認為也不宜,應該有所調動。第三、如果跟首長有近親的關係,那絕對應該避免。"},{"start":32672.403,"end":32693.237,"text":"我還是再一次強調第一個因為他是藥廠的小孩負責發政我覺得非常不妥第二個卓密的孩子現在在臨床試驗科而他本身畢業的科系是兒童與家庭學系我覺得臨床試驗這個部分業務重大這兒童及家庭學系符合臨床試驗的需求嗎?"},{"start":32693.937,"end":32712.004,"text":"第三個我們來用這個案例也可以來說到他在6月多所開的職缺講明白的就是要相關畢業的研究所的資格但是可以看到他是輔大哲學研究所我們看不到他到底是符合了哪一個要點"},{"start":32713.364,"end":32739.704,"text":"這裏面的深喉嚨提供太多資料了我們希望回歸專業,我們希望公平公正公開從2003年9月到2023年12月他也是擔任綠委辦公室的主任這樣子的人事案明顯就是資格不符嘛我想我所提出的資料,院長您有看過了嗎?我有看過在報導上委員提到的,我們在輿情分析上都有看到,我們非常的重視"},{"start":32740.523,"end":32765.891,"text":"好 那我想這個最重要還有這個包括審查費啊逐年的提高當時我們對於業界來說啊審查費提高是希望能夠接軌世界能夠專業能夠快速所以需要審查費來聘請更專業的人而如今現在這些審查員卻變成我們看來是人事的酬庸是不專業的人在做這件事情我想審查費也會影響到廠商廠商多支出會不會影響到更多的消費者"},{"start":32766.971,"end":32784.918,"text":"陳誠的剝削都可能會影響到,我想這個部分您也應該幫我們一起關切。 院長可以嗎?好的,我一併了解。好,謝謝院長。那,再來我想跟院長請問一下,針對超失案,本席曾分別於7月9月含情農業部。部長,經濟部長,您如果沒事的話可以先回座,不好意思。謝謝。"},{"start":32786.724,"end":32789.726,"text":"當然最後所檢據的資料回應是你們希望我看到的,你們不希望我看到的我可能都看不到,因為本席沒有調查權。"},{"start":32812.064,"end":32840.658,"text":"簡據回應資料是如何我想大家心知肚明可想而知但是現在我要說的監察院有完成調查報告結果提出五項的糾正六項檢討改善意見院長請問監察院報告寫到續產會辦理雞蛋採購相關計畫連最基本的雞蛋數量品質均未進行驗收這部分農業部既然已經被監察院糾正並未盡督導責任應該如何辦理相關人員"},{"start":32841.448,"end":32848.463,"text":"我會請農業部就監察院的調查報告逐項的來與了解澄清或者做必要的處分。"},{"start":32849.176,"end":32873.517,"text":"監察院所作出的這份報告當中,我想這是有憑有據,應該不可能說監察院是造謠抹黑吧?對,我跟委員報告,就是監察院本身所提到的五項糾正跟六項改善措施,那我們收到監察院的文以後,我們也成立了請內部的一些相關的那個續長位的部分,針對監察院所作的最主要是行政疏失的部分,"},{"start":32873.917,"end":32883.725,"text":"特別是在整個採購的SOP的部分我們請他們重新去確認然後提出一個檢討的報告部長我想包括還有一個啊財團法人中央續產會辦理採購作業要點這個部分作業要點訂了沒"},{"start":32887.892,"end":32916.698,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":32919.002,"end":32929.565,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":32934.923,"end":32952.249,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢。報告委員會,本日排定質詢的委員均已詢答完畢。謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長列席答詢。10月15日星期二上午9時繼續開會,進行財政組織質詢。我們現在休息。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 - 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再來換你民進黨執政,在這半年內,你若沒有去地方去溝通協調,大家無法互相參與。"},{"start":457.701,"end":479.233,"text":"雖然國民黨過了,這標示所有的責任是在你們執政期間,你們默示要基層跟農會,幾乎沒人理睬。 我覺得這個問題很重要,但是中央跟我們問阿嬤阿嬤夫,地方的政府,他就想說這裏面要為什麼拖累起來,會怕遭遇到民怨民眾的反對。 我現在跟議長說,"},{"start":481.482,"end":506.911,"text":"不要怪地方的政府,我暫時說一些事情,其實是你中央的行政責任,你們現在這麼厲害,明年要到齊要來表現你們的power,你們全力推動,這不對,我是執政要延緩。我現在要跟你說的第一件事,苗栗山多平原少,水庫多,苗栗縣的國土保育區面積,你給我賠20%。"},{"start":508.919,"end":511.141,"text":"我講這個問題很重要,我們要學平衡的做法。"},{"start":536.414,"end":564.784,"text":"平東怎麼做你知道嗎?把公有地,就是財產的土地化為農業,農業就是你永遠要工作,你不得翻身,他這樣做,他把本來的農業、優良農地改為農惡,把都市計劃內的農業用地改為城鄉發展區,如果平東同歸,我們表的觀察這樣做,我十三月九月六日是這個同歸。"},{"start":566.258,"end":595.555,"text":"所以現在補卸是很嚴重的所以這個國土計畫真的要好好考慮利用還有如果能沿著兩年好好的溝通協調讓地方發出他們未來要發展最重要的地方不然我聽到本來要問你今天總執行的時間是多少你不要說農民有農業的精神大家都要看土地有沒有賺人都沒改變人性沒改變不要想到很偉大"},{"start":596.94,"end":616.825,"text":"你們都曉得,都市裡面的農業區,你們都一直在改變,變成商業區,往那裡掉下去。我跟委員報告,就是說,有關於劃農業發展區到底怎麼劃,我想,絕對不是只有地方政府劃中央省,一定是中央跟地方政府一起合作的,所以我想後續我們會去加強溝通,適合的這些地,我想我們會跟縣政府一起來討論,"},{"start":623.386,"end":623.867,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":641.34,"end":643.882,"text":"是,謝謝委員提醒,我個人一直覺得國土激發法的內容是不是沒有辦法像農民說得很清楚"},{"start":667.506,"end":667.726,"text":"還有一點啦"},{"start":690.517,"end":714.786,"text":"您說糧食國安的問題,保證也一定有保證土地是荒廢地或不正,我常常聽到學者專家那個什麼糧食國安的問題,你自己去看,現在產量提高了,你要有各種改變的方式,因為總執行歐巴基國有重點想問,改天我會跟農委會請教,你再轉告給我們的卓院長,我先讓人家出聲。"},{"start":716.482,"end":738.662,"text":"再來我對苗栗一項現象我一直想要做的事情,就是指定苗栗為地區環保示範區,打造臺灣的圈圈子。我們苗栗的地方地區環保很漂亮,而且每一塊的地方交通非常的便利。我現在跟你說一個現實的問題在哪裡,苗栗一塊的啊,"},{"start":740.729,"end":755.715,"text":"三千平的農地內大概是1500萬至2000萬,你說有可能沒可能,反正要你們台北市的豪宅一個便宿就買不去,買新北市的房子10平就買不去,我100%的土地我沒10平,你覺得這樣有道理嗎?"},{"start":755.715,"end":758.095,"text":"部長你好好想我講的這個幾個問題,所以在土地內的農地、農機變成"},{"start":769.196,"end":785.191,"text":"從我去編制鑑定,我們苗栗的農地地區環保,自己可以做事,什麼就受到宣示。 所以我在這裏我定了一個官僚,苗栗官僚交通很方便,到台北45分鐘,到高雄70分鐘,到台中20分鐘。"},{"start":789.059,"end":812.318,"text":"所謂苗栗要蓋農舍要符合農舍的行政規定,這裏有一點,就是很困擾,農舍用地應既行配置以農地者地界線策及連接道路,不得影響農業經營用地的完整,但使特施對行者不在此限。"},{"start":813.724,"end":840.906,"text":"因為特殊地形者﹐我地的經濟委員會﹐跟農業部﹐跟你們農委會的特殊地形變了。 您說不來,好啦。 你一直要知道,你平地的農地﹐平地的農地﹐跟我所剩的山坡地是沒有人,你用這樣的條件來設限。 我在這裡,地方的公務人員,沒有人敢去解釋特殊的地形,他怕變成獨立。"},{"start":842.21,"end":871.028,"text":"所以我們廟裡邊85%山坡地都面臨嚴重的、苛刻的損耗,沒辦法通過。 我覺得這一點要因地制宜。 不能說在平地的農舍跟山坡地的農舍,你們要求的條件都一樣。 平地有路,山坡地要自己開。 現在山坡地要知道不一定一定山坡地缺水。 你要收農作物要缺工。"},{"start":871.718,"end":872.078,"text":"臨時提案委員：陳超明"},{"start":897.133,"end":902.668,"text":"所以有時候想不通,這樣你們這些都不會讓人變協,所以我在這裡,"},{"start":904.155,"end":907.496,"text":"其實在我們國土計畫的農事的部分的鄉村聚落的規劃裡面就可以"},{"start":947.349,"end":968.01,"text":"好好 謝謝 謝謝時間已到謝謝苗栗的陳超明委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:18:20 - 15:34:28","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155389"},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:59","end_time":"2024-10-11T17:39:08+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155396","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","duration":959,"start_time":"2024-10-11T17:23:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638c78d732fa0646e941de834b4d1bbb5bf812e56a3e2a3cc34a41d5c05e5ec44ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.754718750000002,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.589718750000003,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.21409375,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.90596875,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.937843750000003,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29.96721875,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":36.025343750000005,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.45971875,"end":42.336593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":42.336593750000006,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.07784375,"end":59.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.95846875,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":59.78534375,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.62409375,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.86409375000001,"end":71.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.25596875000001,"end":75.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.30596875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.25471875000001,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":81.84096875,"end":86.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.67534375000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.67096875,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":92.77596875,"end":99.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.38346875,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.82971875000001,"end":108.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.62159375,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":112.62096875,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.34096875,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.07471875,"end":127.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":128.11221875,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.21659375000002,"end":137.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":137.44409375,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":145.30784375000002,"end":146.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.33721875,"end":146.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.91096875,"end":151.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":150.89346875,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.99034375000002,"end":155.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.97284375,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.21284375000002,"end":161.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.32221875000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":161.37284375000002,"end":162.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.50784375,"end":161.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.72721875000002,"end":163.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":163.46534375000002,"end":204.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.10659375,"end":164.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.92721875,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.23096875000002,"end":205.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.20971875,"end":214.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.49534375000002,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.52409375000002,"end":221.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.40971875000002,"end":234.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":232.43346875,"end":258.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.79221875,"end":268.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":267.97221875,"end":280.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.83096875,"end":304.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.99596875000003,"end":330.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":330.96659375,"end":347.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":334.20659375,"end":335.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":348.43221875,"end":353.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":352.27971875000003,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":378.80721875,"end":379.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":403.76534375,"end":415.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":410.29596875000004,"end":411.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":415.78034375000004,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":426.04034375000003,"end":426.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","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有請我們卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢是 羅委員好院長好 今天最後一位 辛苦了不會院長 我想問你一句話 城市因河流而偉大 可以認同嗎"},{"start":37.486,"end":64.615,"text":"每一個有河流經過的城市都漂亮偉大而且具有觀光的價值我們看到許多進步的城市不管是國外跟國內包括國內也有基隆河、淡水河、愛河都是令我們非常稱羨那我必須在這邊很不客氣的跟你說您欠我們台中市預算您欠我們台中市建設一千億多的預算怎麼算前瞻計畫中央補助地方總計大概五千多億"},{"start":65.555,"end":68.057,"text":"今天我想跟你分享本席來自台中中西東南區你有去過東區的樂成宮嗎?"},{"start":88.817,"end":88.837,"text":"羅廷瑋"},{"start":108.726,"end":127.44,"text":"任何因城市而偉大的這些河流我們都希望能夠投入大筆的預算來做相關的整治首先我要跟你談到柳川三期的計畫可以看到已經完工了當時花了將近2.5億元我們非常感謝中央地方一起來努力"},{"start":128.18,"end":143.629,"text":"那現在已經晚工了,我們希望柳川市期我在上任的時候不斷地催促經濟部,但是都遲遲沒有下文,包括旱溪的整治,我也希望能夠跟你爭取一些經費。 這個部分,院長可以給我們一些回應嗎?"},{"start":147.17,"end":158.266,"text":"報告委員 旱溪的治理率已經達到了98.9%當然我知道未完成治理護岸在上游豐原區因為涉及民眾私有地"},{"start":159.321,"end":186.001,"text":"需要先完成協議 其餘均已達到保護標準部長您說到的那個部分是在豐原地方我在中西東南當然你說的這個治水綠啊已經完成大概90幾%我現在希望的是不只是美化或者是河濱公園這樣相關的一個建設我們也會看多次那以漢溪來說我們現在在做的是簡易綠化都是希望能夠有清水設施那包括柳川四旗"},{"start":186.561,"end":186.581,"text":"部長"},{"start":206.243,"end":220.436,"text":"我們經濟部當然是水利署他會根據各地方政府送來的計畫然後評估然後我們一定會去落實如果符合這個要件的話應該是沒有問題因為"},{"start":222.458,"end":235.41,"text":"今天在這邊特別提出來柳川市期旱溪整治我希望兩位能夠先幫我登記起來會後我們再來詳細的討論但我要提到的是不管是前瞻計畫特別預算以及柳川市期"},{"start":245.82,"end":268.162,"text":"這些都是延續型的建設,我想這些預算都不會受所謂的預算法來影響到,都會有所保護,我們希望能夠來做一個建設方面的探討,這部分來有請部長,可以嗎?可以,我們一定會跟地方政府好好的協商,如果說地方政府送來的沒有問題的話,我們當然是可以下去做,總之會有優先順序。"},{"start":270.524,"end":289.594,"text":"第二個要跟院長特別討論,老舊校舍的一個拆除一個問題,我想國內超過50歲的老舊校舍大概有2200多棟,超過30多歲的大概有8300多棟,我的選區中性國小就有所謂的老舊校舍,而且是沒有死照的。"},{"start":290.094,"end":304.35,"text":"我想9月30聯合報也有報導地方縣市政府教育局的官員也在講我們所編列行政院現在所編列的補助款分到各縣市一年能夠處理校舍大概在3到4所"},{"start":305.091,"end":332.037,"text":"我們列車帶改建的老舊校舍是破萬棟要到什麼時候才能夠全數完整來改善我想國發是不是能夠幫忙協助這個部分當然拆除改建最重要的是經費我們還是希望行政院能夠編列特別預算這是最快速能夠解決方法的那列車中有破萬棟的老舊校舍院長這個部分能不能編列特別預算有沒有考慮過我們在上個月"},{"start":332.637,"end":341.3,"text":"已經核定了一個教育部送來的公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除重建計畫大概350億114年到117年350億那過去我們從98年到111年"},{"start":348.496,"end":365.873,"text":"也用了1300多億,也改善了很多校舍。 院長我必須還是要給你打斷,不好意思。您所提供知道的資料有部分有誤。我們可以看到這1000多億元是斑斑有平板、斑斑有冷氣、電力改善以及校舍以外一些比如說廁所"},{"start":367.134,"end":387.687,"text":"還有跑道來改善,老舊校舍實際補助的狀況是真的比較少,所以不要被教育部所提供的資料給混淆了,當然是美化數據。 三百五十億元我個人覺得還是有待改進,當然利益良善願意先三百五十億,我們當然給予鼓勵,但是我還是跟教育部說,太少了。"},{"start":388.047,"end":402.966,"text":"所以我希望國發能夠支持我希望行政院能夠編列特別預算在這個部分我必須拿出來繼續來跟您說明可以嗎?我們一起來努力為老舊校舍因為所有的孩子有14萬的學童都身處在這些危險的場域我們一起加油可以嗎?"},{"start":403.965,"end":406.126,"text":"那我可以大膽直接跟您講350億不夠"},{"start":427.894,"end":455.668,"text":"當然我們希望好可以更好,要還要要更多,我希望能夠為教育部發聲,我也跟教育部部長說過,他不敢要,我幫他要,350億元幫我在加碼,幫所有的學童在加碼,這個部分。好,謝謝委員加碼。也請委員支持今年的預算。我沒有編列預算的能力,要靠您吶。350億元能不能再繼續增加。為教育、為小孩、為教育、為小朋友、學生,我想我們的立場完全一致。好,謝謝。"},{"start":457.455,"end":480.092,"text":"再來我想剛剛我有聽到其他委員現在諮詢有關於這個外送平台的併購案大家都非常關心喔我想也探討了很多我就不細說了啦因為我都有聽到我想簡單跟您詢問一下就您個人的意見我想公平會的意義在什麼反壟斷希望他能夠公平那您個人覺得支不支持他何必"},{"start":483.418,"end":500.964,"text":"我個人的意見是希望我有一天我要透過這外送平台來買東西的時候我能夠有充分的選擇性而且我這個選擇性讓我能夠感覺到我是受到整個社會公平交易的保障的我希望每個人都跟我同樣受到這種保障"},{"start":501.869,"end":517.163,"text":"公平委主委,他沒有講得很清楚,但院長的意思已經讓您聽到略中一二,可以聽到他裡面涵蓋的意思嗎?主委回報主委,各界的意見我們都有收集,我知道你有收集,但在你旁邊"},{"start":518.124,"end":518.544,"text":"我們一定會慎重評估"},{"start":545.545,"end":546.289,"text":"好,再來,謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":550.356,"end":578.792,"text":"再來我想跟院長討論這件事情那如何不要讓社會的弱勢沒有良好家庭背景的小孩子在求職環境上輸在起跑點。 院長在前天10月9日我召開了記者會任人唯親唯慮、太廚不適任的官員其中我就有提到當天有三位施藥署我們發現有藥廠負責人的小孩有煮蜜的小孩"},{"start":579.312,"end":593.693,"text":"以及不符合任用資格卻因為有律委關心關切而任用的人事案已經過了三天了請問本席現在要怎麼處理我想問一下院長因為我完全得不到回應"},{"start":594.634,"end":614.757,"text":"根本就是狗廢火車,不當一回事,例行性的一個回覆。首先本席與三位是要贖的這些基層員工,完全不認識,也沒有任何的恩怨。記者會的目的就是希望政府帶頭給年輕人一個機會,而且是徵選公平的機會,而不是讓這些沒有背景的年輕人作為陪榜員。"},{"start":615.718,"end":631.438,"text":"社會的弱勢沒有良好家庭背景的小孩在求職上在就業上就輸在起跑點再者本席要問跟那些人事有相關的這些人事案長官是憑著權勢來相互幫忙"},{"start":632.399,"end":646.157,"text":"判負這些權勢﹐在此人事案上下其手﹐互相掩護嗎﹐比如﹐石耀淑署長﹐祖密藥品組﹐組長﹐是縱容此人事案的存在者﹐要如何懲處﹐殺雞儆猴。"},{"start":648.24,"end":669.996,"text":"我也希望能夠得到院長您的回覆本席再次強調我們應該要讓弱勢的孩子讓正常普通的家庭也有機會能夠在求職在這個就業的環境上在公務機關能夠有一個正常公平公正公開一個同一個起跑點院長您覺得呢"},{"start":670.964,"end":685.36,"text":"好謝謝委員當天所提出的這個事件在媒體上跟我們都非常的重視但因為這兩天剛好國慶的典禮我下禮拜一定給委員一個答覆我三個原則第一個他如果任用資格不符標準絕對是違法"},{"start":686.761,"end":700.528,"text":"第二、他如果這個人任用資格沒有問題,但是他從事的業務跟他過去的相關有太接近的時候,我們認為也不宜,應該有所調動。 第三、如果跟首長有近親的關係,那絕對應該避免。"},{"start":701.496,"end":722.352,"text":"我還是再一次強調第一個因為他是藥廠的小孩負責發症我覺得非常不妥第二個卓密的孩子現在在臨床試驗科而他本身畢業的科系是兒童與家庭學系我覺得臨床試驗這個部分業務重大這兒童及家庭學系符合臨床試驗的需求嗎?"},{"start":723.052,"end":741.122,"text":"第三個我們來用這個案例也可以來說到他在6月多所開的職缺講明白的就是要相關畢業的研究所的資格但是可以看到他是輔大哲學研究所我們看不到他到底是符合了哪一個要點"},{"start":742.462,"end":768.794,"text":"這裏面的深喉嚨提供太多資料了,我們希望回歸專業,我們希望公平公正公開。 從2003年9月到2023年12月,他也是擔任綠委辦公室的主任。 這樣子的人事案明顯就是資格不符嘛。 我想我所提出的資料,院長您有看過了嗎?我有看過在報導上委員提到的,我們在輿情分析上都有看到,我們非常的重視。"},{"start":770.196,"end":795.123,"text":"那我想這個最重要還有這個包括審查費啊逐年的提高當時我們對於業界來說啊審查費提高是希望能夠接軌世界能夠專業能夠快速所以需要審查費來聘請更專業的人而如今現在這些審查員卻變成我們看來是人事的酬庸是不專業的人在做這件事情我想審查費也會影響到廠商廠商多支出會不會影響到更多的消費者"},{"start":795.603,"end":814.03,"text":"徵程的剝削都可能會影響到,我想這個部分您也應該幫我們一起關切。 院長可以嗎?好的,我一併了解。好,謝謝院長。那,再來我想跟院長請問一下,針對超市案,本席曾分別於7月、9月含情農業部。部長,經濟部長,您如果沒事的話可以先回座,不好意思。謝謝。"},{"start":815.816,"end":833.307,"text":"七月九月我有含情農業部檢送財團法人中央續產會辦理的過期進口雞蛋堆肥再利用採購的原籤還有採購相關的會議記錄、巡架資料、招標文件開標記錄、契約書驗收資料等相關的採購文件當然最後啊"},{"start":833.727,"end":856.085,"text":"所檢據的資料回應是你們希望我看到的你們不希望我看到的我可能都看不到因為本席沒有調查權檢據回應資料是如何我想大家心知肚明可想而知但是現在我要說的監察院有完成調查報告結果提出五項的糾正六項檢討改善意見院長請問監察院報告寫到續產會辦理雞蛋採購相關計畫連最基本的雞蛋數量品質均未進行驗收"},{"start":863.09,"end":877.561,"text":"這部分農業部既然已經被監察院糾正,並未盡督導責任,應該如何辦理相關人員?我會請農業部就監察院的調查報告逐項的來與了解、澄清或者做必要的處分。"},{"start":878.275,"end":895.337,"text":"監察院所作出的這份報告當中,我想這是有憑有據,應該不可能說監察院是造謠抹黑吧?我跟委員報告,就是監察院本身所提到的五項糾正跟六項改善措施,那我們收到監察院的文以後,我們也成立了"},{"start":896.097,"end":900.221,"text":"部長,我想包括還有一個啊,財團法人中央續產會辦理採購作業要點,這個部分作業要點定了沒?"},{"start":916.988,"end":945.794,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":948.302,"end":958.626,"text":"謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:23:09 - 17:39:08","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155396","gazette":{"lineno":1734,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（17時23分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長好，今天最後一位，辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，我想問你一句話，城市因河流而偉大，可以認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：每一個有河流經過的城市都漂亮偉大，而且具有觀光的價值。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們看到許多進步的城市，不管是國外及國內，包括國內也有基隆河、淡水河、愛河，都令我們非常稱羨。我必須在這邊很不客氣地跟您說，您欠我們臺中市預算，您欠我們臺中市建設一千億多的預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員廷瑋：怎麼算？前瞻計畫中央補助地方總計大概五千多億，高雄市就獲得了1,265億，占全部的四分之一；臺中市在整個預算裡面是六都排名倒數第二，還輸給嘉義，臺中只拿到228億元。今天我想跟你分享，本席來自臺中中西東南區，你有去過東區的樂成宮嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該有去過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：樂成宮非常有名，我們旁邊有一個旱溪。今天我想跟你提到旱溪的整治及柳川四期，當然還有老舊校舍的問題。","針對旱溪這個部分，從跟您分享的圖片可以看到，目前正在做簡易的綠化，但是遠遠不夠，我們希望任何因城市而偉大的這些河流都能夠投入大筆預算做相關整治。首先，我要跟你談到柳川三期計畫已經完工了，當時花了將近2.5億元，我們非常感謝中央、地方一起來努力。現在已經完工了，然而柳川四期我在上任的時候不斷地催促經濟部，但是都遲遲沒有下文，包括旱溪的整治，我也希望能夠跟你爭取一些經費，這個部分院長可以給我們一些回應嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，旱溪的治理率已經達到了98.9%。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：未完成治理護岸在上游豐原區，因為涉及民眾私有地，需要先完成協議，其餘均已達到保護標準。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，你說到的那個部分是在豐原區，我在中西東南區，當然你說的治水率已經完成大概百分之九十幾，我現在希望的是不只是美化或者是河濱公園，相關的建設我們也會勘多次。以旱溪來說，我們現在在做的是簡易綠化，都是希望能夠有親水設施，包括柳川四期的部分，你可以給我回應一下嗎？我們有送計畫，但是這個計畫被中央打回槍，當然有可能是臺中市政府水利局所撰寫的計畫不符合標準，我們極力再來努力改編相關的計畫，但未來你們願意給予協助嗎？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部水利署會根據各地方政府送來的計畫予以評估，我們一定會去落實，如果符合這個要件的話，應該是沒有問題，因為行政院編列的預算，我們都會下去實施，對於整個的防水或是防災都應該優先實施。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天在這邊特別提出來柳川四期及旱溪整治，我希望兩位能夠先幫我登記起來，會後我們再來詳細討論，但我要提到的是，不管是前瞻計畫特別預算以及柳川四期，這些都是延續型的建設，我想這些預算都不會受所謂的預算法影響到，都會有所保護，我們希望能夠來做建設方面的探討，這部分有請部長，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以，我們一定會跟地方政府好好協商，如果地方政府送來的沒有問題的話，我們當然是可以下去做，但總是會有優先順序。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝部長。第二個要跟院長特別討論老舊校舍拆除的問題，國內超過50歲的老舊校舍大概有兩千兩百多棟，超過三十多歲的大概有八千三百多棟，我的選區忠信國小就有所謂的老舊校舍，而且是沒有使照的，9月30日聯合報也有報導，地方縣市政府教育局官員也在講，行政院現在所編列的補助款分到各縣市，一年能夠處理的校舍大概3到4所，列冊待改建的老舊校舍破萬棟，要到什麼時候才能夠全數完整改善？國發是不是能夠幫忙協助這個部分？當然，拆除改建最重要的是經費，我們還是希望行政院能夠編列特別預算，這是最快速能夠解決的方法。列冊中有破萬棟的老舊校舍，院長，這個部分能不能編列特別預算，有沒有考慮過？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在上個月已經核定了一個教育部送來的公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除重建計畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：大概350億。"],["卓院長榮泰：114年到117年350億，過去從98年到111年也用了一千三百多億，也改善了很多校舍。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，我還是必須要給你打斷，不好意思！你所提供的資料有部分有誤，我們可以看到這一千多億元是班班有平板、班班有冷氣、電力改善以及校舍以外，比如廁所及跑道改善，老舊校舍實際補助的狀況是真的比較少，所以不要被教育部所提供的資料給混淆了。當然，美化數據……"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道，未來350億我們朝這個方向。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我個人覺得350億元還是有待改進，但當然立意良善，願意先編列350億，我們給予鼓勵，但是我還是要跟教育部說太少了，所以我希望國發能夠支持，我希望行政院能夠編列特別預算，在這個部分我必須拿出來繼續跟你說明，可以嗎？我們一起為老舊校舍努力，因為有14萬學童都身處在這些危險的場域，我們一起加油，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不敢說不可以，但是今年我們編預算就是沒有編特別預算，我們希望預算正常化，但未來可能有一些地方還是必須考量，所以我說我們會納入一個考量的範圍當中，我們來想怎麼樣把事情做得更好，而且它是一個時段性，在幾年當中可以把它完全做好的，我們朝這個方向來思考。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我可以大膽直接跟您講350億不夠。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也認為。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我們希望好可以更好，要還要更多，我希望能夠為教育部發聲，我也跟教育部部長說過，他不敢要，我幫他要。這個部分，350億元幫我再加碼，幫所有的學童再加碼。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員加碼。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也請委員支持今年的預算，讓我們至少能……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我沒有編列預算的能力，要靠您啦！350億元可不可以再繼續增加？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會很慎重，因為為教育、為小朋友、為學生這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：窮不能窮教育啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我想我們的立場完全一致，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。再來，剛剛我有聽到其他委員質詢有關外送平臺的併購案。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：大家都非常關心，我想也探討了很多，我就不細說了，因為我都有聽到，我想簡單跟您詢問一下，就您個人的意見，我想公平會的意義在哪裡？反壟斷，希望它能夠公平。您個人覺得支不支持它合併？您可以回應嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我個人的意見是希望我有一天要透過外送平臺來買東西的時候，我能夠有充分的選擇性，而且這個選擇性讓我能夠感覺到我是受到整個社會公平交易的保障，我希望每個人都跟我同樣受到這種保障。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。公平會主委，他沒有講得很清楚，但院長的意思已經讓您聽到其中一二，主委，可以聽到他裡面涵蓋的意思嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：回報委員，各界意見我們都有蒐集，我們將來審議的時候，一定會針對現在秩序的影響來審酌。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道你有蒐集，但在你旁邊的行政院院長講了，他希望未來點外送的時候，可以有多元的選擇，並且保障所有消費者、外送員還有店家，他們有充分的權益，這個部分我希望你能夠帶回公平會，我希望你能夠慎重地考量，我們反對合併，我們擔心壟斷，對於這個部分您旁邊的院長也有表態，謝謝。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一定會慎重評估。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的解讀。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝！再來，我想跟院長討論這件事情，如何不要讓社會弱勢、沒有良好家庭背景的小孩子在求職環境上輸在起跑點？院長，在前天10月9號我召開了記者會「任人唯親唯綠，汰除不適任官員」，其中我就有提到當天有三位食藥署人員，我們發現有藥廠負責人的小孩、有主秘的小孩，以及不符合任用資格卻因為有綠委關心、關切而任用的人事案，已經過了三天了，請問本席現在要怎麼處理？我想問一下院長，因為我完全得不到回應。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：根本就是狗吠火車、不當一回事，例行性的回復。首先，本席與三位食藥署的這些基層員工完全不認識，也沒有任何的恩怨，記者會的目的就是希望政府帶頭給年輕人一個機會，而且是甄選公平的機會，而不是讓這些沒有背景的年輕人作為陪榜員，社會弱勢、沒有良好家庭背景的小孩在求職上、在就業上就輸在起跑點。再者，本席要問，跟那些人事有相關的人事案長官是憑著權勢來相互幫忙、攀附這些權勢，在此人事案上下其手、互相掩護嗎？比如食藥署署長、主秘、藥品組組長是縱容此人事案的存在者，要如何懲處、殺雞儆猴？我也希望能夠得到院長您的回復。","本席再一次強調，我們應該要讓弱勢的孩子、讓正常普通的家庭，也有機會能夠在求職、在就業環境上、在公務機關能夠有一個正常、公平、公正、公開的同一個起跑點。院長，您覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員當天所提出的這個事件，媒體跟我們都非常的重視，但因為這兩天剛好是國慶典禮，我下禮拜一定給委員一個答復。我有三個原則：第一個，他如果任用資格不符標準，絕對是違法；第二個，如果這個人任用資格沒有問題，但是他從事的業務跟他過去的相關太接近的時候，我們認為也不宜，應該有所調動；第三，如果跟首長有近親的關係，那絕對應該避免。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是再一次強調，第一個，因為他是藥廠的小孩，負責發證我覺得非常不妥；第二個，主秘的孩子現在在臨床試驗科，而他本身畢業的科系是兒童與家庭學系，我覺得臨床試驗這個部分業務重大，兒童及家庭學系符合臨床試驗的需求嗎？第三個，我們也可以從這個案例看到，他在六月多所開的職缺，講明白的就是要相關研究所畢業的資格，但他是輔大哲學研究所，我們看不到他到底是符合了哪一個要點。這裡面的深喉嚨提供太多資料，我們希望回歸專業，我們希望公平、公正、公開，從2003年9月到2023年12月，他也擔任綠委辦公室的主任，這樣子的人事案明顯就是資格不符嘛！我所提出的資料院長有看過了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我在報導上有看過關於委員提到的，我們在輿情分析上都有看到，我們非常地重視。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。最重要的還包括審查費逐年地提高，對於業界來說，當時審查費提高是希望能夠接軌世界、能夠專業、能夠快速，所以需要審查費來聘請更專業的人，而如今這些審查員在我們看來卻變成人事的酬庸、是不專業的人在做這件事情，我想審查費也會影響到廠商，廠商多支出會不會影響到更多消費者？層層的剝削都有可能會影響到，我想這個部分您也應該幫我們一起關切，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我一併了解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝院長。再來，我想跟院長請問一下，針對超思案，本席曾分別於7月、9月函請農業部……經濟部長，您如果沒事的話可以先回座，不好意思。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：7月、9月我有函請農業部檢送財團法人中央畜產會辦理的「過期進口雞蛋堆肥化再利用」採購原簽、採購相關會議紀錄與詢價資料、招標文件、開標紀錄、契約書、驗收資料等相關採購文件，當然最後檢具回應的資料是你們希望我看到的，你們不希望我看到的我可能都看不到，因為本席沒有調查權，檢具回應資料是如何？我想大家心知肚明、可想而知。","但現在我要說的是，監察院有完成調查報告結果，提出五項糾正、六項檢討改善意見，院長，監察院報告寫到畜產會辦理雞蛋採購相關計畫，連最基本的雞蛋數量、品質均未進行驗收，這部分農業部既然已經被監察院糾正並未盡督導責任，應該如何辦理相關人員？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請農業部就監察院調查報告逐項地予以了解、澄清或者做必要的處分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：監察院所做出的這份報告當中，我想這是有憑有據，應該不可能說監察院是造謠抹黑吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，監察院本身提到的五項糾正跟六項改善措施，我們收到監察院的文以後，也請畜產會針對監察院所提行政疏失的部分，特別是在整個採購SOP的部分，我們請他們重新去確認，然後提出一個檢討報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我想還包括財團法人中央畜產會辦理採購作業要點，這個作業要點訂了沒？"],["陳部長駿季：他們本來就有作業要點，最大的一個爭議就是生鮮雞蛋不適用政府採購法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是有問題才叫你要訂嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，生鮮雞蛋……"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，相關人員的違失問題處分了沒？不要抓一個基層的承辦人員來交差了事，如此大的採購金額全國都在關注，我們一定會監督、嚴格去看這件事情，所以我希望不要隻手遮天，相關人員一定要追究清楚，而不是只抓基層人員交差了事！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，監察院的調查結果有任何不法的，我們一定嚴懲，而我們的同仁如果很認真地工作、沒有任何疑問的話，我想我們也要鼓勵他！"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們就看監察院的報告來做，也希望部會能夠給我們更明確的回應，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長列席答詢。10月15日星期二上午9點繼續開會，進行財政組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（17時39分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:16:52","end_time":"2024-10-11T17:22:48+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155395","委員名稱":"馬文君","duration":1012,"start_time":"2024-10-11T17:05:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c63808535b49b4708a001de834b4d1bbb5bf812e56a3e2a3cc34f9795706fb47d6f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.89034375,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.84346875,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.200343750000002,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.883468750000002,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.66909375,"end":104.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.67284375000001,"end":149.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.12346875,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.73034375,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.40409375000002,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.53284375,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.10659375,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.42346875,"end":220.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.46909375,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.90346875,"end":226.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.43846875000003,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.33284375000002,"end":245.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.75221875000003,"end":247.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.03034375000001,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.26534375000003,"end":286.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.40409375,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.92346875000004,"end":339.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.80034375,"end":315.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.97721875,"end":318.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.05721875,"end":318.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.65284375000005,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.12721875,"end":396.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.80034375,"end":413.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.70471875000004,"end":414.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.22346875000005,"end":459.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.38596875,"end":455.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.90034375000005,"end":459.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.99284375,"end":471.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.99534375,"end":471.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.53534375000004,"end":471.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.60284375000003,"end":471.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.61971875,"end":471.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.62784375,"end":473.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.76284375000006,"end":474.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.77971875000003,"end":473.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.21846875000006,"end":474.25221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.35346875000005,"end":474.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.97784375000003,"end":475.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.63596875,"end":475.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.85534375000003,"end":475.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.00721875000005,"end":495.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.42846875000004,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.32471875000005,"end":503.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":496.44284375,"end":497.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":503.04096875000005,"end":520.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.3897187499999,"end":514.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.3640937499999,"end":514.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.4990937499999,"end":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議員長午安"},{"start":25.97,"end":52.429,"text":"我想最近其實還是有非常多的草野的委員共同還是在關心國土計劃法的部分其實國土計劃法不只只有農一農二的使用其實它還牽涉到很多相關的法令那未來如果說直接施行以後其實它會造成非常多的困擾國土計劃法當時大家為什麼認同說應該要去推動"},{"start":53.109,"end":53.349,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":74.784,"end":74.984,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":104.764,"end":118.613,"text":"森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在,除非它已經損壞掉了,你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法,它有一個82721,如果在這個時間之前,"},{"start":120.114,"end":120.754,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":150.495,"end":169.827,"text":"行水區域其實是比較小的可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係它越來越大然後可能也在這麼長的時間幾十年或者甚至上百年其實它的位置已經有位移那你在劃河川線的時候其實很多人他原來本來是私有地甚至是建地"},{"start":170.467,"end":173.611,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":188.45,"end":212.903,"text":"我想請教一下那時候我們在108年為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家那時候因為早期台灣的發展尤其是中小企業都是大家可能自己家戶自己去推動發展一直到現在他可能具有一些相關的規模或者在農地上存在的這些工廠他在105年的時候我們還特別修法讓他通過"},{"start":218.266,"end":218.427,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":228.75,"end":254.126,"text":"我跟委員報告,您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分,國土計畫實施以後反而更容易解,因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理。現在反而比較困難,要用另外的產業園區的部分。然後第二個部分就是,國土計畫實施以後反而比較好解,就是說縣市政府如果它已經變成聚落的話,就可以用鄉村整體規劃。"},{"start":255.327,"end":278.803,"text":"那個有些你在森林法裡面它很多就是在林地上面它不會是聚落,如果像你像國土計畫我們國產署裡面有很多也不是在聚落裡面啊,所以跟我們的聚落是無關的,現在有很多它其實就是分散的,所以沒有辦法像部長說的這個是可以解決,不可能,如果可以解決之前就會解決了。"},{"start":279.884,"end":303.858,"text":"所以他要變更其實是更加的困難,所以這個部分不像部長想的那麼容易。 接下來還… 第二個部分就是公服法的部分,那以公服法的部分的一個執行跟現在不管你化為農一農二,那原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠他已經納管以後,那以非屬低污染的部分我們會持續的輔導。"},{"start":305.279,"end":322.189,"text":"那除非他是高度污染的我們才會讓他簽上在農業地區大概有1100多家我們知道我們知道他是低污染的才可以符合那至少如果說還有這1000多家我想請教一下因為你在國土計畫法推行以後其實他在第38條"},{"start":325.211,"end":337.495,"text":"從事未符合國土功能分區及分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者,由該管職銜市縣市主管機關處行為人新台幣100萬以上500萬以下罰款。"},{"start":341.378,"end":348.329,"text":"這個接下來第二條第二項第二款也是相關的就是如果沒有按照這樣的情況他處30萬以上100萬150萬以下相關的38條全部都是罰則而且"},{"start":356.581,"end":359.322,"text":"國土計畫法施行以後,它就是沒有按照這樣的相關的規定在使用這個塊土地。 它如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠,你說它是可以不用法的嗎?"},{"start":359.322,"end":360.102,"text":"這是在哪裡我們看不到啊,在國土計畫法裡面我們看不到。"},{"start":383.148,"end":384.549,"text":"國土計畫實施以後除非你是新增的違規"},{"start":413.768,"end":413.908,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":429.218,"end":429.258,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":459.198,"end":459.378,"text":"哪一條?"},{"start":475.035,"end":495.12,"text":"哪一條?國土計畫法裡面從來已經使用的是哪一條?因為我們已經有把它全部看過,就是如果已經有衝突,你在這裡你第38條的法則裡面很清楚的寫到,如果沒有依照你的分區使用的這樣相關的規定,它就是要罰。"},{"start":496.365,"end":524.787,"text":"我跟委員報告我會後可以提供你就是國土計畫有一個非常大的精神就是保障從來是使用的部長部長我們所有我們在我們民主法治的國家然後你要修這個法你要施行我們還是希望他在法裡面可以清除的這個在法裡面有規範如果可以的話那些公服法裡面的工廠那他們也可以啊他們存在已經好幾十年本來是違規的還是違規不是說違規的在那個國土計畫完以後就變成合法的"},{"start":525.421,"end":544.902,"text":"不是啊 當然不是 可是你是衝突的嘛我現在就是說你今天我們在105年成立的這個公服法以這個來看他現在你本來應該要給他20年的時間可是現在顯然如果他在農一農二上面因為現在更去嚴格以前可能用公服法去"},{"start":545.683,"end":546.964,"text":"這個跟委員報告,就是農民合法的權利不會受到影響。"},{"start":569.595,"end":578.283,"text":"這個在農業用地裡面﹖我們已經把它納進﹖內政部納進國土計劃法的施行審査草案裡面說沒有﹖合法的使用我們沒有意見﹖我現在講的是其他的﹖你為什麼會訂森林法58527﹖為什麼會訂國產法82721﹖為什麼會訂公福法說讓他20年﹖可以讓他在低污染的情況之下﹖可以去辦理合法登記﹖給他20年的時間﹖"},{"start":597.259,"end":615.913,"text":"就是因為在這一段時間裡面其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料因為有些人在民國20年甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡那時候沒有國民政府那時候那塊土地沒有編訂沒有地號人家已經住在那裡所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的我們後來"},{"start":617.754,"end":618.395,"text":"我強調一下是合法的才會有保障喔"},{"start":646.254,"end":646.294,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":661.934,"end":662.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":691.39,"end":715.226,"text":"農地、農一、農二就是表示現在上面都是種東西的啦你政府政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候你都有辦法讓它變成合法可是人家早已經存在的你現在沒有辦法幫他解決你倉促的施行你就會造成很多人無家可歸或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠那違背了當初你公福法通過的一個精神"},{"start":715.726,"end":724.211,"text":"如果說你有納管的時候,就會讓他隨著納管的部分,除非你沒有被納管的部分。國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他非法以後國土計畫完了以後會變成合法,沒有這一條。"},{"start":730.694,"end":753.253,"text":"本來就沒有這一條,部長你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎?工福法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來在農地上面,事實上是還有這些,可是你的事,你沒有在法上面把它指出來,所以你讓大家知道,讓所有全體如果有這樣子工廠違規使用,可是你應該要給他選擇,選擇我們。另外,"},{"start":757.659,"end":773.975,"text":"不用釐清把法給我們就好了因為你說有嘛你說可以保障嘛你要讓大家知道而且讓大家放心接下來我想要請教的是像經濟部在組無人機的聯盟希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元"},{"start":780.822,"end":791.579,"text":"經濟部日前也宣誓成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟,希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展。 我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做?"},{"start":792.618,"end":815.369,"text":"報告委員,我們現在的聯盟是由漢翔為主,臺灣的供應鏈大概有50家,技術是由工研院來接收。我們對美國跟對日本這兩個市場拋出我們合作的方向。跟委員報告,這兩個國家到2028年,"},{"start":820.211,"end":827.842,"text":"大概整個市場可以來到台幣大概5000億,所以我們認為要達到這個2028年要達到300億應該是可以努力的。"},{"start":832.743,"end":852.93,"text":"部長因為我想這是理想可是臺灣要建構這樣子的一個環境我覺得不困難臺灣的不管在我們所有的所有的量能所有我們的技術等等要生產這些不困難可是我現在要提醒的是因為我們動用了很多的國防的資源"},{"start":853.39,"end":853.53,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":874.181,"end":874.401,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":900.452,"end":901.633,"text":"臺灣有機會成為民族產業鏈 這個對我們來講對全世界來講都"},{"start":975.146,"end":1001.591,"text":"我們希望你國訪應該維護的安全,就要把它維護好。你要去發展無人機的產業,我們贊成,我們支持的。"},{"start":1004.758,"end":1004.939,"text":"馬文君議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:05:56 - 17:22:48","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155395","gazette":{"lineno":1651,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（17時6分）謝謝主席。麻煩請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長午安。我想最近其實還是有非常多的朝野委員還是共同在關心國土計畫法的部分，其實國土計畫法不是只有農一、農二的使用，它還牽涉到很多相關的法令，未來如果說直接施行以後，它會造成非常多的困擾。國土計畫法當時大家為什麼認同應該要去推動的很重要的一個原因，是因為有些法令其實都已經是非常、非常久了，甚至可能都已經有七、八十年，甚至很長的時間，對於現在已經有一些不合時宜的部分，雖然我們有不斷的在修法，我現在要特別提出來的，我想請教一下，像國土計畫法如果施行以後，因為剛剛部長有特別提到，其實像農業設施、糧食安全給付、農業金融支持等等，這些原來就在做，什麼叫堆疊式的給付，這個其實農民都看不懂，而且你本來就在做了，跟我們現在擔心的國土計畫法推動以後會造成的傷害其實沒有太大的關聯。","我們現在要請教的是，假如像森林法，森林法裡面有規定58527之前存在的建物可以容許它繼續存在，除非它已經損壞掉了，你不可以再重建。另外還有一個國產法，它有一個82721，如果在這個時間之前已經存在的，它也容許它存在在農地上或者在其他土地上面，原來就是因為它可能沒有辦法按照我們的土地編定去做這樣的建築，所以才訂這些相關的法令。","另外除了國產法、森林法，還有水利法，水利法我想大家都知道，其實早期的溪流河川也許它本來的行水區域其實是比較小的，可是現在因為氣候變遷的關係，它越來越大，可能也在這麼長的時間，幾十年或者甚至上百年，其實它的位置已經有位移，你在劃河川線的時候，其實很多人本來是私有地，甚至是建地，可是已經變成是在河川的行水區域內或者在它的治理線，或者甚至就在相關的法限之內，像這樣也會面臨到國土計畫法施行以後，可能會面臨到衝擊。","另外還有一個就是工輔法，我想請教一下，那時候在108年，為什麼我們推動在農地上面的工廠至少有三萬八千多家，因為早期臺灣的發展，尤其是中小企業，可能都是大家家戶自己去推動發展，一直到現在它可能具有一些相關的規模，或者在農地上存在的這些工廠，它在105年的時候，我們還特別修法讓它通過有二十年的大限。可是在國土計畫法施行以後，這些怎麼辦？部長要先講嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛才非常關心的58527跟82721這兩個部分，國土計畫實施以後，反而更容易解，因為它可以用鄉村整體規劃去處理，現在反而比較困難，要用另外的產業園區部分。然後第二個部分，就是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你再說一次，用什麼、用什麼去解？"],["陳部長駿季：國土計畫實施以後，反而比較好解，如果它已經變成聚落，縣市政府就可以用鄉村整體規劃……"],["馬委員文君：在森林法裡面，有很多就是在林地上，它不會是聚落，像國產署裡面也有很多不是在聚落裡面，所以跟聚落是無關的，現在有很多其實就是分散的，所以沒有辦法像部長說的這是可以解決的，不可能！如果可以解決，之前就解決了，現在他要變更更加困難，所以這個部分不像部長想得那麼容易。接下來……"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分是工輔法的部分，在工輔法的執行，現在不管是劃為農一、農二，而原來已經納管的這些過去違規的工廠，在已經納管以後，已非屬低污染的部分我們會持續輔導，除非是高度污染，我們才會讓它遷廠，這個在農業地區大概有一千一百多家。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們知道是低污染的才可以符合，如果說還有一千多家……"],["陳部長駿季：這個不會影響到……"],["馬委員文君：我想要請教一下，因為國土計畫法推行以後，第三十八條規定，從事未符合國土功能分區及其分類使用原則之一定規模以上或性質特殊之土地使用者，由該管直轄市、縣（市）主管機關處行為人新臺幣一百萬元以上五百萬元以下罰鍰。有下列情形之一者，就是沒有按照相關規定，處三十萬元以上一百五十萬元以下。第三十八條規定全部都是罰則，而且如果違規使用，就可以包括斷電、斷水、封閉，甚至拆除，如果沒有拆除也不行。剛剛你說納管，可是在國土計畫法施行以後，他就是沒有按照這樣的相關規定在使用這塊土地，他如果在農一、農二上面有這樣的工廠，你說他可以不用罰嗎？這規定在哪裡？我們看不到，在國土計畫法裡我們看不到啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在工輔法裡就有很明確的規定，他會照著工輔法相關規定去做，國土計畫實施以後，除非是新增的違規，大面積的才會……"],["馬委員文君：部長，那就把這一條列上去，因為不能只是在這裡口說，我們看到很多都是有一些規定跟罰則的，像我上次提到農民的農保，有的繳了三、四十年農保，你們直接就把他砍掉，讓他喪失農保資格，可是用太陽能的，他去申請工商登記，居然還可以享有農保，我不知道標準在哪裡？這樣是傷害我們農民，包括現在也是，如果你認為這樣子可以確保包括工輔法、森林法、國產法，還有水利法這些相關的內容，一旦他的使用有違背到國土計畫法相關情形，其實你們應該把它直接訂到法裡面，因為這樣人民才可以信任，你也才可以依法行政。今天如果有人檢舉，他是不是要罰一百萬到五百萬？你可以不罰嗎？依據哪一條不罰？依據哪一條不罰？告訴我們就好。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，相關國土計畫裡面有特別的規定，就是可以保障從來之使用的部分，包括農牧用地，就算是在國保區，你是農牧用地……"],["馬委員文君：哪一條？哪一條？"],["陳部長駿季：哪一條是不是？"],["馬委員文君：國土計畫法裡面保障從來已經使用的是哪一條？我們已經把法條全部看過，如果有衝突，你在第三十八條的罰則裡面很清楚地寫到，如果沒有依照分區使用的相關規定就是要罰，然後就是要拆。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，會後我可以提供給你，國土計畫有一個非常大的精神，就是保障從來之使用的，就是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們是民主法治國家，你要修這個法、要施行，我們希望還是可以在法裡面清楚標示……"],["陳部長駿季：這個在法裡面都有規範。"],["馬委員文君：如果可以的話，那麼那些工輔法裡的工廠也可以啊！他們存在已經好幾十年啊！"],["陳部長駿季：本來是違規的還是違規，不是說違規的在國土計畫完以後，就變成合法的，不是這樣子。"],["馬委員文君：不是啊！當然不是，可是你是衝突的嘛！我現在說的是105年成立的工輔法，以這個來看，本來你應該給他們二十年時間，可是現在顯然如果他是在農一、農二上面……因為現在更趨嚴格，以前可能用工輔法去為這個解套，可是現在一旦施行下去以後，就是以這個法為原則，我們在這個法裡面沒有看到可以保障我剛剛唸到的這幾個法相關的這些影響，部長你說在哪一條，如果有的話請提供給我們所有的委員，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，農民合法的權利不會受到影響，這個農業用地，內政部已經納進國土計畫法的施行細則草案裡面作規劃。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我知道，合法的使用我們沒有意見，我現在講的是其他的，為什麼會訂森林法58527？為什麼會訂國產法82721？為什麼會訂工輔法可以讓他在低污染的情況之下去辦理合法登記，給他20年的時間？就是因為在這一段時間裡面，其實他沒有辦法提出很多的佐證資料，因為有些人在民國20年，甚至清朝時期可能就住在那裡，那時候沒有國民政府，那時候那塊土地沒有編定、沒有地號，人家已經住在那裡，所以那些因為歷史因素一直留存下來的，我們後來在法律上面就是訂出這些落日條款和時間點給他改善，可是現在在國土法施行以後，他就會面臨到衝擊，這一些你們沒有提出解決的辦法，如果貿然施行，會造成很大的衝擊，所以我們希望……如果像剛剛部長說這個在裡面是可以有保障的，請確切的指出來它可以怎麼樣保障我剛剛提到的這一些……"],["陳部長駿季：我強調一下，是合法的才會有保障，非法的……"],["馬委員文君：剛剛那些就不是合法嘛，所以才會有工輔法啊！所以……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，工輔法是很特殊的一個法。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們現在要讓所有我們之前通過工輔法或者我剛剛提到的這些相關法令……，因為早期他在蓋的時候，他就沒有辦法取得這樣子的建造資料或者使照資料，所以他會有一些相關的困難，而且針對農一、農二，你現在把他訂上去，他以前可能不是被編定成這樣，你現在把他編定這樣，他房子已經在了，可是你沒有任何的配套措施，我要講的是這個部分。所以部長不要講合法的，合法的農地包括農一、農二，就表示現在上面都是種東西的，政府的政策如果要蓋太陽能的時候，你都有辦法讓他變成合法，可是人家早已經存在的，現在沒有辦法幫他解決，你倉促的施行，那就會造成很多人無家可歸，或者他必須拆除他現在的工廠，那違背了當初工輔法通過的精神。"],["陳部長駿季：依照工輔法，如果你有納管的時候，就會讓他隨著納管的部分，除非說你沒有被納管的部分。"],["馬委員文君：部長，國土法裡面的法條……"],["陳部長駿季：國土法裡面沒有任何一條說他如果是非法，國土計畫完了以後會變成合法，沒有這一條。"],["馬委員文君：本來就沒有這一條，部長，你沒有聽清楚我剛剛講的這些嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["馬委員文君：工輔法裡面現在有一些你剛剛都已經講出來，在農地上面事實上還有這些……"],["陳部長駿季：有納管的就沒問題啊，有納管的沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：你沒有在法上面把他指出來讓大家知道，所有有這樣子的工廠違規使用，你應該要給他指正……"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我想後續我們會把這些疑問加以釐清。"],["馬委員文君：不用釐清，把法給我們就好了，因為你說有嘛、你說可以保障嘛，你要讓大家知道，而且讓大家放心。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：接下來，我想要請教的是經濟部在組無人機的聯盟，希望扶植產業在2028年可以月產1.5萬架，賴總統更希望無人機的產值在2030年可以達到400億元，經濟部日前也宣示成立臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟，希望可以推動無人機產業國際化的發展，我想要請教這個部分我們要怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在的這個聯盟是由漢翔為主，臺灣的這個供應鏈大概有五十家，技術是由工研院來接收，我們對美國及日本這兩個市場拋出這樣的合作方向。跟委員報告，這兩個國家到2028年大概整個市場可以來到臺幣五千億，所以我們認為2028年要達到三百億應該是可以努力的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我想這是理想，可是臺灣要建構這樣子的環境，我覺得不困難。臺灣不管是所有的量能、所有的技術等等，要生產這些不困難，可是我現在要提醒的是，我們動用了很多的國防資源，過去中科院其實投入非常多的研發經費，我之前說一百多億，其實不止，如果連劍翔算進去，劍翔在我們的特別預算裡面高達好幾百億，如果我沒有記錯的話是800億。像這麼多投入的經費，我們到底想要做什麼？我們是美國的代工嗎？","剛剛我們聽到美國及日本所有無人機的生產，我們現在比較擔心的是，看起來這個主要是解決美國無人機自己製造的問題，因為根據美國陸軍的規劃，未來美國陸軍打擊旅的小型無人機要配備到連級，可是美國本土沒有小型無人機的產業，如果在美國生產，成本又會太高，所以它希望讓臺灣生產小型無人機；中大型無人機的技術，它會給臺灣嗎？如果它沒有給，我們就是做代工。今天如果我們是代工的角色，其他國家包括東南亞的國家甚至都可以取代我們，沒有理由要用臺灣。","所以就這個部分，我剛剛提到了我們有很多的關鍵技術，包括國防部之前花了好幾百億的研發費用，到現在突然終止掉了，就為了要發展無人機的產業園區。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，臺灣有機會成為民主產業鏈，這個對我們來講、對全世界來講都非常重要。"],["馬委員文君：民主產業鏈是口號，我們要的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是口號！"],["馬委員文君：我們要的是安定和平，我們不要只是代工……"],["卓院長榮泰：只要大家支持，就不是口號。"],["馬委員文君：今天你如果花的是國家的錢，是維護國家安全的，不能只是把它拿來當這個部分。如果部長不認同，你應該要有更具體的說法，而不是拿數據，因為你來自企業界，我們要的……國防跟企業、經濟的規模其實要把它拆開來看。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們做的是軍規商用。"],["馬委員文君：軍規商用是有通過的嗎？部長，沒關係，後續我們有時間再跟你討論軍規商用是什麼東西，我想我們再來把它好好地釐清楚，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：軍規商用就是在一般的市場，跟軍事沒有正相關。"],["馬委員文君：可是我們現在國防部買的都是軍規商用的無人機耶！我們現在國防部買的都是……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，委員多支持，它就不會是口號，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：它不是口號，我說的是你現在用的是國防的預算買軍用商規無人機，剛剛部長說那個是沒有關的。"],["郭部長智輝：跟我們這個聯盟沒有關係。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們希望國防應該維護的安全就要把它維護好，你要去發展無人機的產業，我們贊成、我們支持……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持。"],["馬委員文君：因為無人機的產業未來可能會是一個重要的產業……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：可是不要去吞噬到國防安全的預算，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝。謝謝卓院長、相關首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第23號劉建國委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員劉建國書面質詢：","一、AI高科技人才培育基地","(1)雲林環球科大宣布退場，30公頃校地，12棟校舍建築，可利用該校設置台灣第一座「AI高科技人才培育基地」，行政院前副院長鄭文燦在任時召開會議拍板決議，由中央全力主導，建請教育部與經濟部規畫。","(2)本席於113年6月12日施政總質詢，經濟部長郭智輝回復待台糖土地完全交給經濟部，後續會盡速辦理，建請　行政院盡速核定計畫，由中央主導、經濟部規劃設置「AI高科技人才培育基地」。","二、【AI醫學產業鏈】","(1)台灣首座「國家級高齡醫學暨健康福祉研究中心」在雲林設立，同時還有111億台大虎尾院區二期擴建計畫，透過這樣的醫療連結，絕對有能力可以支援相關AI醫療技術的開發。","(2)中科虎尾園區目前滿載，行政院支持擴建，未來若是在園區設置AI醫療場域，連結國家級高齡醫學暨健康福祉研究中心及台大醫院虎尾院區，將整個AI醫療產業發揮到最大效益，三方串聯成「AI醫學產業鏈」。","(3)建請比照嘉義科學園區模式，中央政策全面主導，立即辦理可行性評估、籌辦計畫……等等相關程序作業。","三、農業堆疊式給付機制","(1)農業部為確保農業發展地區發展性及增進農民權益，推動各項給付措施，並建構生態服務的堆疊式給付制度，以確保農業發展地區實際從農的農民權益，建請農業部盡速辦理，並於一周內提供相關配套措施。"],["項目：四、麥寮海淡廠延期","為避免超抽濁水溪水，台塑承諾在麥寮六輕建置海淡廠，除供水六輕外，還能供給周遭民眾民生用水。然而2018年通過環評，開始建造，預定2022年完工，但2022年5月台塑六輕發布消息，因疫情影響六輕海水淡化廠興建，將延後1年完工。這樣一延就沒完沒了了，去年2023年工程完全靜悄悄，為此本席也在去年3月於司法法制委員會質詢時，要求經濟部督促六輕，結果現在2024都要結束了，六輕承諾的這座海淡廠仍然沒有完成！現已多有民間團體呼籲環境部應進行開罰。","對此，經濟部是否有掌握麥寮海淡廠三度延期原因為何？同時經濟部應有相關手段，強力要求麥寮海淡廠加快建造速度，而非一直延宕，與民搶水，請經濟部2周內回覆，具體作為方針。"],["主席：接下來請登記第24號羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:35","end_time":"2024-10-11T17:05:27+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155394","委員名稱":"何欣純","duration":935,"start_time":"2024-10-11T16:49:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638b35690b9893066731de834b4d1bbb5bf812e56a3e2a3cc34f35072de26b2e24c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.527843750000001,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.15596875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.90971875,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.078468750000003,"end":20.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.91721875,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.52784375,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.594718750000006,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.744093750000005,"end":54.284093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.26284375,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.304718750000006,"end":58.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.72221875,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.439093750000005,"end":61.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.282843750000005,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.37471875,"end":69.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.52221875000001,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.24784375,"end":72.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.34034375,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.72409375000001,"end":74.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.64784375,"end":76.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.16659375,"end":79.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.50784375,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.35971875,"end":84.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.36784375,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.11034375,"end":87.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.73034375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.11409375000001,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.12659375000001,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.64534375000001,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.45096875,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.53909375,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.63596875,"end":98.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.54721875,"end":100.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.11221875000001,"end":104.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.97659375,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.18721875,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.22096875000001,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":112.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.03909375,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.40159375,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.41846875,"en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院長你在今天中午的和解飯這個參會上真的說過行政院沒對進法補償提復議案"},{"start":47.767,"end":51.068,"text":"這已是我對原住民的仁慈你有講過這句話嗎委員這句話問我不如問韓院長韓院長還在現場嘛對不對院長我們卓院長有講這一句話嗎那我來說我如果說錯韓院長可以隨時指正我我今天在"},{"start":76.217,"end":95.087,"text":"參會當中我的結論是說我這一段話我不想在備詢台上說但是有人把它講出來了所以我就把它說出來我說進法補償這個法通過之後很多人認為我們站在憲政分立的立場上行政院必須提復議"},{"start":96.55,"end":115.985,"text":"但我堅持不願意,我覺得我於心不忍對原住民造成這樣的對立,所以我於心不忍。這兩句話,這句話難道是仁慈的施捨嗎?所以總院長,這個剛剛還是你還原今天中和解犯犯局上真正的"},{"start":117.571,"end":143.311,"text":"一字不漏的言議。 是,我是這樣講,我說我非常不願意,因為我於心不忍,我真的是不想造成這樣的對立。 是,因為我不願意看到對於禁法補償的這一件事情,變成是在野黨背革整個中央政府總預算的一個理由。 現在變成說,用我說我是對原住民的人質,好像我是施政,我從來不會有這樣的想法。"},{"start":144.025,"end":146.967,"text":"我相信卓院長 絕對不會有這樣的想法所以造謠就是不對"},{"start":163.274,"end":187.208,"text":"我要攪清楚到底是誰講出去,難怪...我覺得是就是不是就不是,而且今天和解犯的這個犯局裡面不是只有韓院長跟卓院長,還有其他人,那現場的每一個人都可以來還原,而且呢,來肯認到底剛剛卓院長的那每一個字,每一...那一句,到底是不是..."},{"start":187.648,"end":216.516,"text":"我也謝謝這個韓院長人稱公道主持中立還有我們秘書長也在現場我再重複一次我再重複一次我再重複一次我說很多人希望我在那個時候提出復議我說我非常不願意因為我於心不忍就是會造成這樣的對立我真的不願意這句話絕對不能說是我對原住民的仁慈好像有施捨的樣子"},{"start":217.964,"end":232.502,"text":"這個話如果從高金委員的嘴巴講出來,我就要希望是誰告訴他的,那就是破壞整個今天中午吃飯的氣氛。如果沒有人告訴他,這兩個字從何而來,憑空而出。"},{"start":233.633,"end":262.811,"text":"為的就是要製造另一場紛亂而已是所以院長我今天的質詢第一部分為什麼要問這個第一個我們希望真的要和解我們希望政府的總預算案要趕快的來進入立法院我們希望趕快三度通過有很多很多的預算都必須要被執行這第一個第二個我們認為這個和解犯的犯局裡面這個很多人都在現場是可以作證那到底為何會有"},{"start":263.431,"end":289.425,"text":"高金委員這樣子的一個誤解也好或者是他的解讀是這麼的惡意負面也好我覺得這個第一個對政黨的和解總預算的和解沒有幫助第二個我覺得也不應該讓原住民來背上這樣子的一個罪過其實原住民的權益我相信從中央到地方每一位不分黨派的委員絕對全力的支持跟捍衛"},{"start":290.766,"end":291.247,"text":"沒有錯,我說"},{"start":299.761,"end":325.277,"text":"也許啦在這邊動之以情的講話我都深受感動但是原則不能破壞兩院之間的院計分立不能破壞行政院負責的是制定編列預算大院負責的是審查預算如果一個法律就能通過一筆預算不在預算的大小而在這個精神這個原則之所在我必須嚴守這樣的立場這個是絕對不能破壞的但是為了兩院的和諧"},{"start":326.198,"end":326.358,"text":"主席"},{"start":338.246,"end":342.289,"text":"那我們請韓院長要主持公道我希望能夠要有下一次的和解飯"},{"start":358.621,"end":361.444,"text":"所以誰願意希望趕快進行,有誰在破壞應該看得很清楚。"},{"start":377.292,"end":392.981,"text":"好 謝謝院長的說明我相信這應該非常的清楚非常的明白而且還原今天中午和解飯裡面的每一個字每一句話那接下來我要請教院長我關心很多其他的民生的議題"},{"start":394.202,"end":415.664,"text":"我之前在交通委員會上有跟交通部在提到這個外送平台這個運費的法制化那我提到這個目的是第一個消費者外送員還有小店家的權益問題那你知道交通部現在有訂了一個外送費率然後希望各縣市一定質疑而且預計11月要上路院長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":416.224,"end":441.35,"text":"現在在公告期間,也希望各界來提供各種更好的意見來補足他,如果他有私律上必須周全的地方,也都願意來接受外界各地的這個意見,這個是公告。我現在是提醒院長,這個會有部會之間的不協調,交通部現在預告了,預告了之後當然希望各界來提意見,但是在另外一方面,"},{"start":442.998,"end":471.297,"text":"我在立法院推動的是這個外送平台的運費必須透明化合理化透明化合理化就來自於剛剛院長講的在交通部現在預告的執法規裡面希望有更多各界來提供意見我們希望讓它更透明化合理化但是呢公民會主委已經站在你旁邊了兩大外送平台送過要申請併購那還未立案但是但是正在補件"},{"start":473.234,"end":501.434,"text":"我希望這個行政院跟公平會這個態度立場要明確啦為什麼要明確如果他在補件成功之後立案之後那就要開始審酌他到底允不允許合併但是在這個還沒有確定有沒有合併之前呢交通部的費率已經預告那會產生什麼問題院長第一個公平會的委員人事案"},{"start":502.415,"end":530.386,"text":"我們有幾個委員任期快到了那如果接下來在今年下半年這個我們的人事案呢如果沒有辦法順利的推動的話沒有辦法順利的過關的話那公平會的功能可能受到很大的影響那未來因應如果呢像兩大外送平台他們要合併的案子補件補完成了送進來了可是卻碰到沒有辦法審"},{"start":531.431,"end":534.014,"text":"公平會有4位委員任期到,我們必須在10月底之前把這個人選能夠確定下來,目前正在作業當中。"},{"start":551.135,"end":551.355,"text":"主席"},{"start":566.703,"end":592.872,"text":"這樣情況底下但是如果讓他形成一個壟斷對社會壟斷的行為我想在公平會的公平交易當中是一個相當矛盾的那這個部分我請主委來說明等一下請主委說明之前院長你剛剛講我們公平會委員的人事案你10月要開始作業已經在作業了已經開始作業10月底之前那院長你有信心說在我們今年年底之前我們所有人事案可以抵定嗎"},{"start":595.08,"end":623.539,"text":"我當然很希望能夠照時間走那公平會這個因為比較沒有政治性我們也希望能夠在人選的選擇上比較沒有政治性我們希望人選一出來的時候我們立法院呢草野大家不同政黨都能夠支持我為什麼要這樣子講因為如果呢有人不支持如果呢我們公平會的人事沒辦法通過的話會有一個空窗期那如果在這個空窗期的期間這個外送平台的合併的案子啊"},{"start":624.48,"end":646.391,"text":"立案送進來審議,結果呢我們公平問啊,沒辦法審啊,在空轉啊,那到法定的審期的審查的期限如果過的話,那會不會產生還沒有審,也沒辦法審的情況之下,審查期限過了,那外送平台在沒有審的情況之下就合併了,有沒有這樣的可能性,主委?"},{"start":647.193,"end":647.613,"text":"對阿院長我現在擔心的是這個阿"},{"start":664.564,"end":690.015,"text":"在我們目前審核的過程當中因為資料還沒有齊備等到資料齊備之後我們對於這個結合之後結合事業會不會濫用市場的地位去做價格的決定這也是我們很重要的考量因素我今天關心兩個點說給院長聽請院長能夠關注第一個點如果公平會的人事案沒有辦法如期及時來通過"},{"start":692.276,"end":717.803,"text":"那會有一個空窗期而這個空窗期的期間如果事業體外送平台他們兩家的合併案案件補件完成送進來了沒有人可以審查程序沒有辦法進行在公平交易法的法定的期限審查期限一過之後剛剛主委講的事業申請的事業體可以進行對不對"},{"start":719.483,"end":744.798,"text":"這是我擔心,我也是要說給很多很多的國人清楚知道如果公平會的人事案如果沒有辦法正常的通過正常的運行的話他影響的是民生的議題影響的是民生的議題所以這個問題我請院長要多多關注我希望不要有這個情況發生第二個我擔心的"},{"start":746.311,"end":772.933,"text":"這個是立場的宣示啦兩大外送平台的這個併購剛剛主委講的啊我們在審查就是他會不會壟斷市場嘛如果真的讓他併了之後一家獨大就是獨佔啊一家獨大就是獨佔啊那什麼小店家擔心消費者擔心大家擔心什麼市場被壟斷外送員擔心什麼他沒保障因為呢只有一家他們最大說了算消費者擔心什麼會漲價"},{"start":774.724,"end":795.553,"text":"我是堅決反對啦 我不知道行政院院長你的態度勒剛剛已經跟委員報告過 我們在公平教育的原則底下 行程對社會壟斷的行為都違反 都跟這個原則相對矛盾 所以我相信公平會現在或是未來的委員 一定會本著良心跟專業來做這樣的判斷"},{"start":797.383,"end":798.664,"text":"各界的意見各界的權益"},{"start":820.454,"end":845.876,"text":"應該受保障不可以被壟斷不可以被獨佔這是民眾所關心的拜託主委拜託院長我們會盡快把這個人選人選送到大院來希望時間能夠長我也希望在野黨不要黨這是關心民生的議題希望能夠順利的來通過最後一分多鐘我請教院長其實我們很擔心什麼少子女化的對策因應問題"},{"start":847.537,"end":874.865,"text":"我們知道在賴總統不管他在8月15號他的喊話或者是今年的國慶日他說要跨世代的照顧那其中一個就是對於年輕家庭跟孩子因為我們行政院投入了很多的資源就是希望因應台灣的少子女化那要搶救台灣的生產力一個不算少兩個恰恰好三個多麼好院長這個是我們的目標對不對"},{"start":877.522,"end":902.585,"text":"問題是少子女化的威力太強大了,我們今年是農年,農年寶寶國慶寶寶,昨天國慶日接生聽說很冷,挽救不了出生率,而且推估我們今年農年可能出生率就跟去年差不多,人數也跟去年差不多,院長你對少子女化的對策有沒有加碼的空間,願不願意再加碼?"},{"start":903.428,"end":925.309,"text":"我們最近很積極在討論現在這個階段的人口政策甚至我們要提出的是人口的對策我們想要一整套的計畫那這個國發會已經很積極在討論了那中間好幾項目前都還在思考的過程當中從大家多鼓勵大家多婚多生但是政府要做更多的公托養育"},{"start":933.51,"end":933.998,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:49:52 - 17:05:27","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155394","gazette":{"lineno":1542,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（16時49分）謝謝主席。我們是不是請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["何委員欣純：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：院長，今天很多委員都很關心中午吃的和解飯，聽說破局了，破局的原因癥結點是在於原住民的禁伐補償條例。我想請問一下院長，你在今天中午的和解飯餐會上，真的說過「行政院沒對禁伐補償提覆議案，這已是我對原住民的仁慈」，你有講過這句話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這句話問我，不如問韓院長。"],["何委員欣純：韓院長也在現場，對不對？院長，我們卓院長有講這一句話嗎？"],["主席：我不方便回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：那我來說，我如果說錯，韓院長可以隨時指正我。我今天在餐會當中，我的結論是說，這段話我不想在備詢臺上說，但是有人把它講出來了，所以我就把它說出來，我說，禁伐補償這個法通過之後，很多人認為我們站在憲政分立的立場上，行政院必須提覆議，但我堅持不願意，我覺得我於心不忍，對原住民造成這樣的對立，所以我於心不忍。這句話難道是仁慈的施捨嗎？韓院長是不是，我說的一句沒錯吧？我是說我不願意……"],["何委員欣純：卓院長，所以剛剛這個才是你還原今天中午和解飯局上真正一字不漏的原意？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我是這樣講，我說我不願意，我非常不願意，因為……"],["何委員欣純：韓院長點頭了。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我於心不忍，我真的是不想造成這樣的對立，所以我必須了解……"],["何委員欣純：是，因為我不願意看到禁伐補償這一件事情變成是在野黨杯葛整個中央政府總預算的一個理由。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在變成用我說我是對原住民的仁慈，好像我是施捨，我從來不會有這樣的想法，但是今天……"],["何委員欣純：我相信卓院長絕對不會有這樣的想法。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我有兩個問題必須解決，拜託委員，除了我們3位之外，其他的12位是哪一位跟高金委員講我說「仁慈」這兩個字？如果其他12位都沒有人講，那為什麼要造這種謠？"],["何委員欣純：所以造謠就是不對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要講清楚到底是誰講出去，難怪……"],["何委員欣純：我覺得是就是，不是就不是，而且今天和解飯的這個飯局裡面不是只有韓院長跟卓院長，還有其他人，現場的每一個人都可以來還原，而且來肯認到底剛剛卓院長講的每一個字、那一句話，到底是不是高金委員所講的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也謝謝韓院長人稱公道、主持中立，還有我們秘書長也在現場，我再重複一次。"],["何委員欣純：有，剛剛你在講那句話的時候我問韓院長，他說他不方便，但是他有點點頭。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他主持會議，他有他的職權。我再重複一次，我說，很多人希望我在那個時候提出覆議，我說，我非常不願意，因為我於心不忍，就是會造成這樣的對立，我真的不願意。這句話絕對不能說是我對原住民的仁慈，好像一種施捨的樣子……"],["何委員欣純：絕對不是，絕對不能。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個的話如果從高金委員的嘴巴講出來，我就希望知道是誰告訴他的，那就是破壞今天中午吃飯的氣氛，如果沒有人告訴他，這兩個字從何而來？憑空而出，為的就是要製造另一場紛亂而已。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以院長，我今天的質詢第一部分為什麼要問這個？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員讓我有澄清的機會。"],["何委員欣純：第一個，我們希望真的要和解，我們希望政府的總預算案要趕快進入立法院，我們希望趕快三讀通過，有很多很多的預算都必須要被執行，這是第一個。第二個，我們認為這個和解飯的飯局裡面很多人都在現場，是可以作證，到底為何會有高金委員這樣子的一個誤解也好，或者是他的解讀是這麼的惡意、負面也好，第一個，我覺得這對政黨的和解、總預算的和解沒有幫助；第二個，我覺得也不應該讓原住民來背上這樣子的一個罪過。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：其實對於原住民的權益，我相信從中央到地方，每一位不分黨派的委員絕對全力的支持跟捍衛，但是原住民的權益保障也必須要合乎憲法，這個就是我們所堅持的，是不是，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，我說也許在這邊動之以情的講話，我都深受感動，但是原則不能破壞，兩院之間的院際分立不能破壞，行政院負責的是制定編列預算，大院負責的是審查預算，如果一個法律就能通過一筆預算，不在預算的大小，而在這個精神、這個原則之所在，我必須嚴守這樣的立場，這個是絕對不能破壞的。但是為了兩院的和諧，大家如果願意這樣坐下來談，我們可以談出一個方式出來，也不會傷害彼此之間的信任，只要大家互相尊重，這個事情都可以談。但是如果吃了一頓飯出去之後，卻引述錯誤，故意用不對的話來破壞這個氣氛，那不足為取；如果沒有引述錯誤，是另外有人刻意的製造紛亂，我請韓院長也應該主持公道。"],["何委員欣純：我們請韓院長要主持公道，我希望能夠有下一次的和解飯，也希望能夠真的在和解的氛圍之下，趕快讓總預算進入我們立法院，我們實質來審查，那個才是真正對人民交代、對人民負責，院長，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以誰願意、希望趕快進行，有誰在破壞，應該看得很清楚。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝院長的說明，我相信這應該非常地清楚、非常地明白，而且還原今天中午和解飯裡面的每一個字、每一句話。","接下來我要請教院長，我關心很多其他的民生議題。我之前在交通委員會有跟交通部提到外送平臺運費的法制化，我提到這個的目的，第一個是消費者、外送員及小店家的權益問題。交通部現在訂了一個外送費率，希望各縣市因地制宜，而且預計11月要上路，院長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在在公告期間。"],["何委員欣純：現在在公告嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：也希望各界來提供各種更好的意見來補足它，如果他有思慮上必須周全的地方，也都願意接受外界各地的意見，這個是公告。"],["何委員欣純：我現在提醒院長，這個會有部會之間的不協調，交通部現在預告了，預告之後當然希望各界來提意見，但是在另外一方面，我在立法院推動的是外送平臺的運費必須透明化、合理化，透明化、合理化就來自於剛剛院長講的，在交通部現在預告的子法規裡面，希望各界來提供更多意見，我們希望讓它更透明化、合理化。但是公平會主委已經站在你旁邊，兩大外送平臺送過要申請併購，還未立案，但是正在補件，我希望行政院跟公平會的態度、立場要明確，為什麼要明確？如果他在補件成功之後、立案之後，就要開始審酌到底允不允許它合併，但是在還沒有確定有沒有合併之前，交通部的費率就已經預告，那會產生什麼問題？院長，第一個是公平會的委員人事案，我們有幾個委員任期快到了，接下來在今年下半年我們的人事案如果沒有辦法順利地推動、沒有辦法順利地過關的話，公平會的功能可能受到很大的影響。未來因應，如果像兩大外送平臺要合併的案子補件補完成了、送進來了，可是卻碰到沒有辦法審，交通部又已經在公告相關運費的費率，這兩者之間的部會協調性，院長怎麼看待？要怎麼解決？"],["卓院長榮泰：公平會有4位委員任期到，我們必須在10月底之前把人選確定下來，目前正在作業當中。至於兩大平臺之間的問題，我想公平會一定是基於公平交易的原則，一方面保護消費者，一方面保護業者，業者是指運送人員的權益。"],["何委員欣純：當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：是這樣的情況底下，但是如果讓它形成一個對社會壟斷的行為，我想在公平會的公平交易當中是相當矛盾的。"],["何委員欣純：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分我請主委來說明。"],["何委員欣純：等一下，在請主委說明之前，院長剛剛講公平會委員的人事案你10月要開始作業……"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在作業了，10月底之前。"],["何委員欣純：既然已經開始作業了，院長有信心在今年年底之前我們所有人事案可以底定嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然很希望能夠照時間走，公平會這個因為比較沒有政治性，我們也希望能夠在人選的選擇上……"],["何委員欣純：因為比較沒有政治性，所以我們希望人選一出來的時候，立法院朝野不同政黨都能夠支持，我為什麼要這樣子講？如果有人不支持，導致公平會的人事案沒辦法通過的話，會有一個空窗期。如果在這個空窗期的期間，外送平臺合併的案子立案、送進來審議，結果公平會在空轉、沒辦法審，法定的審查期限如果過了的話，會不會產生沒有審、也沒辦法審的情況之下，審查期限卻過了？外送平臺在沒有審的情況之下就合併了，有沒有這樣的可能性？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員回報，根據公平交易法的規定，結合案件有一個審查期間，這個期間過了，如果公平會沒有做出決定，要結合事業就可以直接去結合了。"],["何委員欣純：對啊！院長，我現在擔心的是這個。"],["李主任委員鎂：在目前審核的過程當中，因為資料還沒有齊備，等到資料齊備之後，對於事業結合之後，會不會濫用市場地位決定價格，也是我們很重要的考量因素。"],["何委員欣純：我今天關心兩個點，要說給院長聽，請院長能夠關注。第一個，如果公平會的人事案沒有辦法如期、及時來通過，會有一個空窗期，而這個空窗期的期間，兩家外送平臺、事業體的合併案補件完成、送進來了，沒有人可以審查，程序沒有辦法進行，在公平交易法的法定審查期限一過之後，依剛剛主委講的，申請的事業體就可以進行結合，對不對？院長，這個是我擔心的，我也要說給很多國人清楚、知道，如果公平會的人事案沒有辦法正常通過、正常運行的話，它影響的是民生議題，所以這個問題我請院長要多多關注，希望不要有這個情況發生。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，我擔心的這個是立場的宣示啦！有關兩大外送平臺的併購，剛剛主委講就是在審查它會不會壟斷市場，如果真的讓它併了之後，一家獨大就是獨占，小店家擔心、消費者擔心，大家擔心什麼？市場被壟斷；外送員擔心什麼？他沒保障，因為只有一家，最大說了算；消費者擔心什麼？會漲價。我是堅決反對，我不知道院長的態度呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛已經跟委員報告過，在公平交易的原則底下，形成對社會壟斷的行為，都跟這個原則相對矛盾，所以我相信公平會現在或是未來的委員，都一定會本著良心跟專業來做這樣的判斷。"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明一下，因為這個案子目前大家都非常關切，我們舉辦了很多的座談會，包括立法委員也舉辦了很多座談會，不管是消費者或餐廳業者，又或是平臺業者，各界的意見我們都蒐集，我們會在整個審議的過程中去審核。"],["何委員欣純：各界的意見、各界的權益都應該受保障，不可以被壟斷，不可以被獨占，這是民眾所關心的，拜託主委、拜託院長！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會多多考量。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會儘快把人選送到大院，希望時間能夠……"],["何委員欣純：我希望在野黨不要擋，這是關心民生的議題，希望能夠順利來通過。","最後，我請教院長，其實我們很擔心少子女化問題的對策、因應。我們知道不管是賴總統在8月15號的喊話，或者是在今年國慶日說要跨世代照顧，其中一個就是對於年輕家庭跟孩子。行政院投入了很多資源，就是希望因應臺灣的少子女化，要搶救臺灣的生產力，一個不算少，兩個恰恰好，三個多麼好！院長，這個是我們的目標，對不對？問題是少子女化的威力太強大了，今年是龍年，昨天是國慶日，聽說龍年國慶寶寶的接生很冷，挽救不了出生率，而且推估今年龍年出生率可能跟去年差不多，人數也跟去年差不多。院長，你對少子女化的對策有沒有加碼的空間？願不願意再加碼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們最近很積極在討論現在這個階段的人口政策，甚至我們要提出的是人口的對策，我們希望有一整套的計畫，國發會已經很積極在討論，中間好幾項目前都還在思考的過程當中。從鼓勵大家多婚多生，但是政府要做更多的公托養育等等的教育、等等的作為，這個我們都要做。"],["何委員欣純：院長，謝謝，希望要加油，不然我們的人口是越來越少。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第20號張雅琳委員、第21號陳俊宇委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員張雅琳書面質詢：","第一題：遊蕩犬逐年增加已經嚴重影響民眾生命財產，請農業部應提出積極手段解決此一狀況。","根據審計部於112年總決算報告中指出，農業部於109至112年共投入約3.5億進行「遊蕩犬管理精進措施計畫」，但遊蕩犬數量卻從107年的146,773隻，上升至111年的159,697隻。","遊蕩犬在各方面皆已造成危害，根據農業部林業及自然保育署統計，野生動物因受到犬貓攻擊而進行救傷之統計數字，已然逐年上升。","資料來源：林業及自然保育署野生動物救傷動物原因統計","除了對於生態的危害，遊蕩犬也時常造成民眾受傷以及農業損失。","追根究柢，因民眾多有放養及在野外餵養遊蕩動物之行為，導致在TNR政策無法落實完全絕育的情形下，遊蕩犬的數量無法有效降低。請農業部對遊蕩犬提出積極管理方案，以及評估是否透過修法提出有效管制措施以解決目前困境。","第二題：「兒童遊戲場設施安全管理規範」於106年修訂至今，已屆7年之久，期間發生許多爭議事件，政府應該針對該規範重新檢視，以符合現場兒童遊戲權益並應與國際標準接軌。","衛福部在於106年修訂的《兒童遊戲場設施安全管理規範》（下稱「管理規範」），規定2-12歲兒童使用的固定式兒童遊具，包含社區公園、大型特色公園和學校等，在遊戲場開放之前，必須經過指定認證的檢驗機構勘驗，取得合格檢驗報告後，並呈報地方縣市主管機關完成備查後，遊戲場才能夠合法開放。","後續引起全國各地的公園拉起封鎖線，也引發各地家長組織起來，要求政府要重新開放公園，後續經過社會大眾的努力之下，各地方政府開始建設特色公園，讓公園變得更好玩，成為親子遊憩的空間。","7年來，雖然政府和民間持續解決問題，但戶外兒童遊戲場仍出現下列問題。","一、各地檢驗標準因「人」設事：","按照現行規範，兒童遊戲場三年要檢驗一次，全國檢驗機構目前有17家，但17家派出的檢驗員，對於同樣兒童遊具常有不同見解和看法，因主觀感受不一的狀況下，令人無所適從。亟待主管機關統一檢驗現場的判定標準。","二、主管機關業務分立，造成責任互推：","目前根據協調，衛福部社家署主管兒童遊戲場法規，但檢驗標準卻是經濟部標準局主管，而認證檢驗機構單位，則是委託給第三方公正機構─財團法人全國認證基金會。後端根據兒童遊戲場所在地不同，又分為不同單位，在學校就是教育部國教署，在公園就是內政部國土署，但這兩個單位只管場所，不管遊具是否合格問題。因此當兒童遊戲場發生爭議時，無法第一時間解決問題，雖然現行設有跨部會平台會議討論，但仍曠日費時，需重新釐清責任歸屬之後，才能再次提出因應方案。","三、檢驗是國家規範，但檢驗經費要自籌：","依據規範，三年必須檢驗一次是國家規範，但制定規範的衛福部社家署並沒有編列經費協助，地方政府或主管單位必須自行籌措經費，就算是需符合制定這些國家標準─經濟部標準局，也會宣稱沒有任何預算經費可以協助，導致地方政府或主管單位只要無法通過標準，只要無力籌措經費，就會採取原地拆除。導致這些年各地方政府努力建置的特色公園兒童遊戲場，於今年又開始面臨無米炊的困境，雖然內政部國土署編列「兒童遊戲場環境設施改善計畫」十億元的經費，但是這些經費也僅是煙火式的補助，經費用完就還是回歸單位自籌，因此明明都是台灣兒童，會因為住的縣市不同，可以玩的地方數量也會很不一樣，嚴重剝奪各地孩子遊戲權。","綜合上面所述，為全國兒童遊戲權益，請行政院研擬解決方案，包含檢視現行法規、解決檢驗員判斷標準不一、事權統一單一機關以及編列公務預算協助各地改善不合格兒童遊戲場。以上請於三個月內提出可行方案。"],["委員陳俊宇書面質詢：","質詢時間：2024年10月11日立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議","對行政院院長施政報告之質詢〈經濟組〉","壹、防淹防洪靠韌性，治水建設要加緊","宜蘭本為多雨的城市，常年與水共存，亦仰賴豐沛地下水以滋養大地，然近年來受極端氣候影響，不僅降雨愈加集中，更頻繁發生致災性強降雨，降雨量遠超出城市所能負荷，導致低窪地區易於淹水，令居民不堪其擾，尤其今年接連遭逢凱米颱風、山陀兒颱風侵襲，在諸多地區皆造成積淹水，不僅財損、農損難以估量，更危及民眾的生命財產安全，遂建請行政院將提升防災韌性視為施政重點，治水建設應盡速完善到位。","一、盡速推動宜蘭重大治水計畫，如質如期完工","治水工程為百年大計，關乎都市計畫及城鄉發展，宜蘭縣內現有多項大型治水計畫正在規劃、建設中，包括「蘇澳溪分洪工程計畫」、「五結防潮閘門改善工程」、「員山鄉七賢村溪洲排水工程」、「壯圍鄉十三股大排護岸整建」等，以上計畫期程及執行進度為何？請相關部會協助掌握，本席亦會持續追蹤。","另建請中央與縣府積極合作，並體察地方財政之困難，若因物價調整導致經費增加，懇請在經費不足之處予以協助，避免因預算問題延宕整體工程進度，務必使相關工程皆得如質如期完工，得進一步改善水患、減少對民眾生活之衝擊。","二、智慧防汛因地制宜，檢討科技防災之成效","為強化社區自主防災能力，行政院於2019年所核定的第一期「水災智慧防災計畫」，曾補助地方政府建置淹水感測器，以即時監控水情，並有效紀錄每次淹水、退水之情形；今年行政院則核定第二期「水災智慧防災計畫」，預計5年將投入30.9億元經費，以強化科技防災之量能。","然審計報告卻指出，宜蘭縣內80處淹水感測器，觸發率竟僅有一成，恐怕與實際積淹水情形有所落差，不免令人懷疑其在致災性豪雨時能否發揮功效，而是否因感測器設置地點不佳、抑或是技術問題，導致淹水感測器成效不如預期？是否需考慮調整位置或擴大布建？請相關單位會同地方政府檢討改善，以利建置更完善之智慧防汛監測監控系統。","另外，行政院在第二期「水災智慧防災計畫」當中，應如何因地制宜協助宜蘭縣建置智慧防災體系，及明年度預期達成之進度為何？提供民眾防災資訊之服務（行動水情APP、LINE智慧防災機器人）應如何推廣讓更多人使用，以達成提升防災整備規模與應變能力之成效？","貳、農業發展再精進，農民權益有保障","宜蘭為農業大縣，本席作為農家子弟，深知農民看天吃飯的心情，遂對於農民福利保障、提升農業競爭力之作為尤其關心，在此提出三個議題與院長討論：","一、提供穩健經濟保障，讓農民老有所依","為提供經濟弱勢的農民，晚年時得有基本之經濟保障，政府自民國84年制定「老年農民福利津貼暫行條例」，歷經多次修正後，至今年滿65歲且符合申領資格者，每人每月可請領8,080元，惟老農津貼雖照物價指數調漲，卻仍遠低於各縣市之最低生活費（113年宜蘭縣最低生活費為14,230元），顯難以滿足每月基本生活支出；惟不敷使用的老農津貼卻占農業部整體預算四成、應雙軌並進的農民退休儲金制度提繳比率仍未及三成，對於農民退休制度之檢討，應有通盤檢討的必要，讓農民得以安心投入農務，老年生活安心有保障。","二、因應極端氣候，農業保險與天災救助並行","今年七月凱米颱風從南澳鄉登陸，造成宜蘭縣農損超過5000萬元，原僅有最嚴重的「青蔥、西瓜、番石榴」納入農損現金救助，感謝農業部在本席爭取之下，擴大救助範圍及項目，助農民度過難關。","惟近年來受極端氣候影響，短延時強降雨頻繁發生，更強的颱風帶來風災、水災，造成之農損令農民苦不堪言，政府辦理天然災害現金救助僅為救急所用，對農民實際幫助相對有限；為穩定農民收益、分散經營風險，政府自106年以來擴大辦理農業保險，惟至今年農作物整體之農保覆蓋率仍偏低，行政院是否應立即檢討農業保險業務及修正保單設計？","應瞭解農民實際情況、增加投保意願，並完善其運作機制，與現行救助制度並行互補，才能在極端氣候的挑戰下，保障農民財產安全。","三、農業人口老化，應創造友善青農環境","隨著少子女化問題日益嚴峻，國發會亦推估台灣將在2025年進入超高齡社會，從事農業人口既呈負成長，青壯年人口的大量流失，使農業工作人口老化問題嚴重，對台灣農業發展相當不利，政府有何因應對策以調整農業勞動力結構，維持我國農業競爭力？另政府如何創造友善青農之環境，培育農業人才、為農業注入新血？","要吸引年輕人投入農業，最重要的即是有可農作之土地，除了傳統的招租廣告外，政府建置的農地租賃平台（農地銀行2.0）應更符合網路世代的使用習慣，惟本席在該網站查詢宜蘭縣可承租之農地，結果卻無任何一筆資料，其他縣市刊載的土地也寥寥無幾，顯該平台未能提供媒合農地之功能，應確實檢討其成效不彰的原因，並建請相關部會加強推廣。"],["主席：接下來請登記第22號馬文君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:44","end_time":"2024-10-11T16:49:20+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155393","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","duration":944,"start_time":"2024-10-11T16:33:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638759d7a0fcc7869ac1de834b4d1bbb5bf812e56a3e2a3cc3463514bac7a6078665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.74971875,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.238468750000003,"end":23.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":31.90784375,"end":32.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.127218750000004,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":32.53221875,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.79784375,"end":34.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.181593750000005,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.57784375,"end":41.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.52659375,"end":43.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.619093750000005,"end":45.03659375},{"s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乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共事﹖"},{"start":178.516,"end":203.012,"text":"在上個會期到這個會期目前有十幾位的朝野立委都提出來希望可以延後首先本席想請教院長現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙表面上我們看到九個縣市沒有交功能分區圖實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎?"},{"start":204.833,"end":210.455,"text":"對農民的傷害太大所以大家會覺得說我們這個國土計劃法他整個的配套各方面考量還不夠"},{"start":232.163,"end":252.268,"text":"就要施行的話對農民傷害太大所以首先第一個本席要特別請問院長如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物那當然條件是不夠的對但是目前我們的農業發展區尤其第一類第二類"},{"start":253.41,"end":254.43,"text":"現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式"},{"start":273.638,"end":274.619,"text":"所以部長的意思是現況這種情況是有改善嗎?"},{"start":295.946,"end":311.339,"text":"對,就是過去的特農的地區 會一直持續地去建設這種水源的進入但是現在我們在各縣市,甚至本席所在的縣市,我們發現這個問題沒有解決"},{"start":313.726,"end":330.626,"text":"二、有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題?因為農民也非常憂慮,氣候變遷有的時候今天的糧田經過一個颱風或是一個氣候各方面的變化,我可能也是就會發生沒有水源而荒廢。"},{"start":331.627,"end":360.241,"text":"可是農民恐慌他覺得農一農二一劃定終生這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎?我跟委員報告不管是劃在農一或農又就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的跟現在是一模一樣的部分所以後續的我們對於農民本身的一些支持也是一樣的那有差異的就是像您說的如果劃在農一的時候他沒有水源的話我們會優先去興建"},{"start":361.081,"end":389.957,"text":"所以你畫在農業的話我們更希望它是一個集團的一個栽培那是不是你新建確定OK你才實施還是你國土計畫法實施了它就是沒有水源這一塊你們要去思考接著本席要講第三點因為時間的關係我們現在農業經營的形式多元所以國土計畫法實施以後呢大多數的農業休閒地區或農場它會被畫為國土保育區"},{"start":390.797,"end":398.746,"text":"那這就阻礙了高產值的休閒農場的發展模式。 舉例來說,根據今年3月的統計,臺灣有2129個露營區。 請問卓院長,您知道這2129個露營區其中合法的露營區有多少嗎?"},{"start":410.225,"end":437.583,"text":"我認為比例會非常非常低大概多少?你猜一下我不敢猜,比例會非常低對,不到10%所以有沒有配套措施來確保我們這個它的經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃特別就是說,農業經營高附加價值以及多元化不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎?那國土計畫法對這個好像無視"},{"start":441.505,"end":459.41,"text":"農業不只是生產而已,農業還有農村,所以我們在整個國家希望工程裡面,我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。那特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分,是未來在我們的鄉規、鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節。"},{"start":460.41,"end":465.471,"text":"接著本席這個是這個行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題那接著本席要特別在替農民發聲就是"},{"start":489.36,"end":489.42,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":519.889,"end":546.444,"text":"我們的農民他們都很有熱忱而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業但是農民無法單兵作戰剛剛部長也有講到農民需要的是政府的支持、支援作為後盾所以剛剛您說的農村的規劃發展現代化農業的基礎建設還有它的這種產銷管道的整合其實都是穩定農民農業的最基礎"},{"start":549.565,"end":576.978,"text":"但是在整個國土計畫施行起來呢﹖我們感覺農民他獨自承擔他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任這個不公平因為有的時候我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解現在沒有錯有些地方政府這個分區圖送上來有些沒有送可是基層有些送上來可能連基層他都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施"},{"start":579.961,"end":606.736,"text":"這個就是跟我們本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過我們的部長不能像這個教改啊教改你跟那個現實面你第一線的你都不了解那所以現在農民呢他們當然也很擔心這個剛剛提的一化定終生一化變永恆那變成他們的整個被限制住那"},{"start":607.957,"end":625.302,"text":"民眾、農民對政府也不是很有信心,也怕政府欺騙他,所以農民有他的困境。 農民看天吃飯,我想院長跟部長都知道,收成不穩定,那即便大豐收,他也有可能被壓低收購價格。"},{"start":626.582,"end":640.372,"text":"那所以呢 農民也面臨務農人口流失 所以我們的國土計劃法保護農地沒有保障農民權益 這樣是不行的 所以是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償"},{"start":645.616,"end":668.236,"text":"國土計劃實施與否另一件事我們已經持續針對整個的農民或是基礎建設我們有一套完整的包括還有金融的支持還有一些對地給付的這些堆疊的方式包括生態的部分我們已經有完善的一個推動現在已經在推動現在已經在推動那未來在國土計劃在做區隔以後"},{"start":668.656,"end":692.185,"text":"我們會針對特定的區位有一個比較更多的像生態給付的部分我們會做一些提高我們希望整個配套完善才上路老實說10月才推動真的太慢了不是我們我剛才講的這些支持性的這些包括基礎建設包括金融支持包括設施設備的一個補助其實我們多年來一直在做"},{"start":693.17,"end":707.777,"text":"本席也要請教院長,針對這第一個議題我要趕快結束了。我們這個整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案,包含修法。"},{"start":709.346,"end":732.527,"text":"而且國土我要特別跟院長來提醒 國土計劃計劃的是全國全民的國土 農民何其沉重要擔此重任我們一定要為農民做好最完善的 不管他未來的保育的補償還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決"},{"start":733.612,"end":760.439,"text":"所以院長可以嗎?身為一個行政院的院長,我本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實謙卑的面對問題。所以我們希望為了國家的永續,國土計劃法可以來施行。請院長審慎的考慮是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案。我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲,但是"},{"start":761.84,"end":782.233,"text":"明明就有13個縣市送過來了,我也必須對這13個縣市要有所了解,因為在國土計劃法45條裡面,它又說全國要一併公告,也不能割裂,所以現在這個當中,但是您說的,如果要對國土計劃內容做檢討修法的話,那是一個方向,但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。"},{"start":783.254,"end":801.714,"text":"現在問題所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案,我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題,這個大議題相信很多委員也提過,就是桃竹苗大矽谷計劃。"},{"start":803.015,"end":807.578,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":831.141,"end":859.168,"text":"很多人都知道我們這個科技整個要發展尤其AI它用電量是非常非常大的本期在整個大細股計畫裡沒有看到新增的有相對應電力的規劃尤其其中有一個科學園區三期整個台灣科學園區新竹科學園區那現在又有科學園區三期"},{"start":861.191,"end":882.887,"text":"這個大矽谷計畫它可以說是過去我們有台積電護國神山,未來如果能夠整個發展起來發展得好,那是護國群山,台灣的護國群山。所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦?很多的公司,我把解完,很多的公司它為了能夠配合國際的規範,它都買綠電。"},{"start":884.068,"end":885.028,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":904.514,"end":906.635,"text":"所以靠儲能就有辦法,有沒有考慮核能?"},{"start":931.769,"end":931.869,"text":"徐欣瑩"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:33:36 - 16:49:20","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155393","gazette":{"lineno":1457,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（16時33分）謝謝院長，本席有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：卓院長好。今天本席有15分鐘會跟院長討論兩大議題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：第一大議題給院長猜一下，是本屆朝野共識最高，不用吃和解飯就有高度共識的一個議題，也是一個修正的法案，您猜看看。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會認為是體育及運動發展部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，這樣子啊！好，是國土計畫法。關於國土計畫法，立法院的聲音是最真實的，朝野超過七十幾位以上的委員都贊成要延後施行。院長，您可能不知道國土計畫法是在第8屆的時候通過的，當時本席就是第一位提案的委員，當初是邱文彥委員提出來的，他也是本席的好朋友，我是第一個連署的，當時這個案子有邱文彥委員、林淑芬委員及行政院三個版本，到現在第11屆，邱文彥委員提案的連署委員就只剩下本席跟蘇清泉委員，林淑芬委員提案的連署委員到第11屆還有8位。本席講這一段就是要表達我們都是支持國土計畫法的，而且對這個理想崇高的國土計畫法，我們都非常認同，當初我們第8屆就是憂慮國土被破壞、殘破不堪，而且沒有規劃，才會支持提案來促成國土計畫法。但是在過去8年整個推動的過程中不知道出了什麼問題，乃至於到第11屆朝野高度共識，從上個會期到這個會期已有十幾位朝野立委都提出來，希望可以延後。首先，本席想請教院長，現在國土計畫法的施行有些障礙，表面上我們看到有9個縣市沒有交功能分區圖，實際上的原因您知道是為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可能對如何劃定所有的農地沒有辦法達成一致，所以想參考其他的縣市，希望能夠有更合理的規劃，或許是這樣吧。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，就是因為對農民的傷害太大，所以大家會覺得如果這個國土計畫法的整個配套還有各方面的考量還不夠，就要施行的話，對農民傷害太大。所以，第一個本席要特別請問院長，如果只有農地沒有水源能不能產出農作物？"],["卓院長榮泰：那當然條件是不夠的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們的農業發展區尤其第一類、第二類，一定要有好的水源，可是目前在各縣市甚至農業大縣有很多沒有水源的土地，卻被劃為農一跟農二，這就是規劃失當。"],["卓院長榮泰：請農業部說明一下，現在水源的供給是不是有更好的方式？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就是我們在做圳路跟水源的供給，我們知道過去灌區內有31萬、灌區外有24萬是沒有水源的，但現在已經越來越多有灌區的水源供應。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以部長的意思是現況是有改善嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是過去的特農地區……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那您要深入去了解。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會持續的去建設這種水源的圳路。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是現在各縣市甚至本席所在的縣市，我們發現這個問題沒有解決。","第二個就是有沒有考慮氣候變遷的問題？農民也非常憂慮，因為氣候變遷的關係，有的時候今天的良田經過一個颱風或一個氣候各方面的變化，可能就會發生沒有水源而荒廢的狀況，農民會恐慌，是因為他覺得農一、農二一劃定終身，這種情況請問有考慮進去嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，不管是劃在農一或農二，就從事農業來講是完全沒有影響的，跟現在是一模一樣的，所以後續我們對於農民本身的支持也是一樣的，有差異的就是像您說的，如果劃在農一，它沒有水源的話，我們會優先去興建，所以農地被劃在農一的話，我們更希望它是一個集團栽培。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那是不是興建確定OK，你才實施，還是國土計畫法實施了，它就是沒有水源？這一塊你們要去思考。接著本席要講第三點，因為時間的關係，我們現在農業經營的形式多元，所以國土計畫法實施以後，大多數的農業休閒地區或農場會被劃為國土保育區，這就阻礙了高產值休閒農場的發展模式。舉例來說，根據今年3月的統計，臺灣有2,129個露營區，請問卓院長，這2,129個露營區，您知道其中合法的露營區有多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為比例會非常非常低。"],["徐委員欣瑩：大概多少？你猜一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我不敢猜，比例應該非常低。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不到10%。所以有沒有配套措施，確保其經營活動符合功能分區圖的規劃？特別是農業經營高附加價值以及多元化，不也是我們一直追求及努力的方向嗎？國土計畫法對於這個，好像無視於此。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農業不只是生產而已……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["陳部長駿季：農業還有農村，所以在整個國家希望工程裡面，我們是以農村為發展中心去建構一個完整的農業體系。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然。"],["陳部長駿季：特別是剛剛您講的這些休閒農業區的部分，是未來在我們的鄉規──鄉村整體規劃裡面的一個非常重要的環節，它會把……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：一些農業以外的產業能夠帶到農村，吸引我們的青年農業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在本席講的就是，國土計畫法已經要上路、施行了，這些你有沒有考慮進去？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農業的一些政策，它不會因為國土計畫而有延後。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果可以你再回復給我，本席這是行政院還有整個執行面規劃的問題。","接著本席要特別再替農民發聲，我們農民感到非常不平的就是，都市計畫下的10萬公頃農地可以作為城鄉發展區，但是整個國家要糧食安全、農業生產，國家永續的責任就由少數農業縣的農民、農地承擔，這個不公平啊！等於我們政府把責任甩鍋給農民，這是第一點。","第二點，我們農民都很有熱誠，而且把捍衛農業、農地當作是他們的志業，但是農民無法單兵作戰，剛剛部長也講到，農民需要的是政府的支持、資源作為後盾。所以剛剛您說農村的規劃發展現代化、農業的基礎建設還有它產銷管道的整合，其實都是穩定農民、農業最基礎的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是整個國土計畫施行起來，我們感覺農民獨自承擔，他獨自承擔整個國土保育的責任，這個不公平！因為有的時候，我也請院長跟部長要下鄉去了解，現在沒有錯，有些地方政府有把這個分區圖送上來，有些沒有送，可是有些送上來的，可能連基層都還不知道這個國土計畫法的實施，這就跟我們……本席記得在經濟委員會也質詢過部長，不能像教改，教改跟現實面，第一線的你都不了解，所以現在農民當然也很擔心，剛剛提的一劃定終身、一劃變永恆，變成他們整個被限制住；農民對政府也不是很有信心，也怕政府欺騙他。所以農民有他的困境，農民看天吃飯，我想院長跟部長都知道，收成不穩定，即便大豐收，他也有可能被壓低收購價格，所以農民也面臨務農人口流失。因此我們的國土計畫法保護農地，沒有保障農民權益，這樣是不行的，是不是對農民的一些保育補貼或稱為補償可以實施？有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，其實國土計畫實施與否，那是另外一件事情，我們已經持續針對整個農民或基礎建設有一套完整的還包括金融支持，以及一些對地給付這些堆疊的方式，包括生態部分，我們已經有完善的推動，現在已經在推動了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在推動了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在已經在推動，未來國土計畫做區隔以後，我們會針對特定的區位有更多像生態給付的部分，做一些提高。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望整個配套完善才上路，老實說，10月才推動真的太慢了！真的太慢。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我剛才講的這些支持性的，包括基礎建設，包括金融支持，包括設施設備的補助，其實我們多年來一直在做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席也要請教院長，針對這第一個議題，我要趕快結束，我們這整個國土計畫法功能分區的調整、變更是否可以在最短時間內提出制度性的改革方案，包含修法？而且我要特別跟院長提醒，國土計畫計畫的是全國全民的國土，農民何其沉重要擔此重任！我們一定要為農民做好最完善的配套，不管未來的保育補償，還是很多剛剛本席提的這些問題一定要解決，院長，可以嗎？身為一個行政院的院長，本席相信一個理性的政府應該要誠實、謙卑的面對問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們希望為了國家的永續，國土計畫法可以來施行，請院長審慎的考慮，是不是可以提出更務實的檢討修正方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：我很注意到大院裡面有很多的委員希望延遲，但是明明就有13個縣市送過來了，我也必須要對這13個縣市有所瞭解，因為在國土計畫法第四十五條裡面又說，全國要一併公告，也不能割裂，所以現在陷在這個當中，至於您說的，如果對國土計畫內容做檢討要修法的話，那是一個方向，但目前要解決的是現在怎麼處理現在的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，現在的問題，所以要有更確實的、更完善的實施方案，我們期待行政院可以把它提出來。","接著本席剩下的時間要提第二個大議題，這個大議題相信很多委員也提過，就是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，這裡面也包含了竹科三期的計畫，尤其以新竹縣市為中心，向北（桃園）向南（苗栗）來延伸，希望這個未來會是匯聚半導體以及AI人工智慧等尖端科技人才，而且希望讓桃竹苗可以媲美美國的矽谷、亞利桑那等全球最重要的半導體及創新科技聚落。很多人都知道，我們的科技要發展，尤其AI，它的用電量是非常非常大的，但是本席在整個大矽谷計畫裡沒有看到新增相對應的電力規劃，尤其其中又有一個科學園區三期，整個臺灣科學園區有新竹科學園區，現在又有科學園區三期，這個大矽谷計畫可以說過去我們有護國神山台積電，未來如果能夠整個發展起來、發展得好，那是臺灣的護國群山，所以這個電力的問題怎麼辦？很多的公司……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我把它講完。很多的公司為了能夠配合國際的規範都買綠電，可是綠電在晚上很可能會沒有辦法，所以就仰賴火力發電，這個部分相信院長、部長都知道……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，晚上的部分，我們用儲電來解決。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在夜間缺電的情況很嚴重。"],["郭部長智輝：晚上的部分，我們用儲電來解決。"],["徐委員欣瑩：用什麼電？"],["郭部長智輝：儲電，儲能電。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你儲能，但是到晚上綠電的儲能現在有辦法儲存多少？"],["郭部長智輝：有啊……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，因為這是國發會在規劃的，我們在整體的配套，包括水和電，都有跟經濟部做過充分的討論，我們對未來用電的需求，包括綠電也都規劃好了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以靠儲能就有辦法，有沒有考慮核能？會不會考慮？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我們列入參考。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們考慮綠能，所以綠電的需求……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝，未來我們考慮、參考。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來15號莊瑞雄委員、16號賴瑞隆委員、17號陳亭妃委員、18號吳琪銘委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員莊瑞雄書面質詢：","一、電價漲幅，產業電價調漲後，經濟如何解？","經濟部於9月底召開113年第2次電價審議，目前住宅與小商店部分累計電價級距不調整，有望紓解民生用電調漲疑慮，然產業用電仍有高達12.5%漲幅，主要恐影經營成本、部分企業外移風險以及產業投資意願等，且企業還需考量碳費等不同的經營成本下，現行對產業結構的影響評估下，建請電價審議小組日後，應審慎評估，並與環境部偕同對碳費收費情況等多方協調，有助提升我國產業競爭力。","二、電網韌性需更切實","近年來應受極端氣候影響，跳電斷電次數頻繁，有鑒於經濟部針對電力系統與儲能提升計劃中，應針對間歇性再生能源大幅提升風險評估更確實，包含電網強化以及不同能源併網調度疑慮，需要整體規劃與提升，以便產業鏈在面對產業電價調升、碳費增加以及減碳措施等其他不同成本增加下，因應國際競爭高強度壓力，政府應更妥善的扮演產業界開疆闢土的後盾。"],["委員陳亭妃書面質詢：","案由：","本院陳亭妃委員，鑒於因應國際能源原物料上漲，加上地緣政治風險增加造成價格波動，為維持台電公司正常營運，我國產業用電電價於近期進行價格調整。本席要求經濟部針對產業用電電價調整必須儘速提出相關因應措施，以降低電價上漲後，對於我國重要產業之營運衝擊及避免通膨風險加劇對民生所造成之影響。","說明：","一、鑒於產業用電電價於近期調漲，恐衝擊我國重要產業例如半導體業、AI相關產業及重要傳統產業等之營運成本及未來發展。經濟部及台灣電力公司應審慎規畫後續各項產業之細部調整內容，報請電價審議委員會進行調整，並研擬相關配套措施保障民生經濟之穩定，避免加劇通膨風險，造成物價劇烈波動，民眾生活成本大增。","二、本席要求貴單位於一個月內提交相關書面報告至辦公室。"],["委員吳琪銘書面質詢：","三峽長福橋改建工程","三峽祖師廟旁的長福橋改建工程，這造橋啟用到今已將近四十年，不但橋體老舊嚴重破壞三峽河的景觀，且橋墩裸露，大大危害防洪安全。橫跨三峽河的長福橋，於108年列為優先改建橋梁，工程總經費約新台幣9.19億元，其中，經濟部水利署補助4.5億元。","相信長福橋一旦改建完成，除了能繼續帶來大量的觀光客與商機可以恢復我們三峽河的往日風華，也可以為三峽老街觀光帶來更大的周邊效益。這和我們政府大力振興在地觀光產業的政策是一致的。","而在今年2月已封閉舊橋拆除改建，橋梁動工之後因為工期長達600天，影響在地居民通行，更對往返的長輩造成困擾，臨時通行便橋將於今年8月底開放，提供民眾通行使用。部長再麻煩緊盯進度，保障民眾最低限度的通行權利，也兼顧橋梁的施工進度與品質。部長為了工程順利如期在115年完工，是否能全力配合協助？"],["主席：接下來請登記第19號何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:16:03","end_time":"2024-10-11T16:23:00+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155392","委員名稱":"賴惠員","duration":963,"start_time":"2024-10-11T16:06:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638751ed2b1e81171e31de834b4d1bbb5bfe82f3c5f0281254e1ff07f613f4563235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.19409375,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12.383468750000002,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.902218750000003,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15.235343750000002,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.22096875,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.96346875,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.08159375,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.190968750000003,"end":29.882843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.950343750000002,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.152843750000002,"end":31.772843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.93721875,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.90659375,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.58971875,"end":43.720343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.939718750000004,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.212843750000005,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.579093750000006,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.704718750000005,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.53534375000001,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.06221875,"end":75.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.68159375,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.14534375000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.21659375,"end":84.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.45659375000001,"end":84.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.51971875000001,"end":86.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.66721875,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.72596875,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.99846875,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.12471875,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.09471875000001,"end":107.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.77784375,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.95471875000001,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.89034375000001,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.48471875000001,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.25659375000001,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.75846875,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.65659375000001,"end":129.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.47471875000002,"end":131.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.20846875,"end":144.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.53159375,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.55221875,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.93971875,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.27221875,"end":158.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.21284375000002,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.01784375,"end":166.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.36784375000002,"end":167.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.46471875,"end":173.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.94471875000002,"end":176.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.99909375000001,"end":180.289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院長好 在這裡我想就是"},{"start":33.064,"end":55.495,"text":"還是要跟院長說加油因為我們知道今天中午的這個總預算的一個協商是破局沒有破局的沒有破局還在努力還在努力所以是努力的非常的辛苦其實我們也是很害怕因為整體的總預算其實關係到我們區域裡頭有很多必須要推動的這一些"},{"start":56.636,"end":56.736,"text":"賴惠委員"},{"start":85.558,"end":108.32,"text":"因為我想院長在今天早上就是要一路走下來每一個委員他的一個區域性的一個發展都不一樣那像郭國文委員他急著跳腳說太多的一個電廠在他那個地方其實我非常有感而發那早期在國民黨時代的時候那就是說"},{"start":110.014,"end":110.034,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":133.237,"end":156.747,"text":"大台南要整體的一個發展的話在這裡想跟三位做一個探討那我們知道說臺灣目前最火紅的就是我們的那個護國神山台積電那台積電其實在7月份的時候那我們的黃仁勳來的時候他有特別講到就是說先進的製程的那個封章技術其實是需求量非常高的"},{"start":158.268,"end":175.799,"text":"臺積電的2.5D的一個先進的一個封裝,它其實關係的AI的一個關鍵。那我今天早上也跟部長跟主委那個事先做過了一個探討,顯然我是不是可以請部長就是說,"},{"start":177.06,"end":177.08,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":192.755,"end":207.91,"text":"報告委員我想這一個跟你的目標希望引進台積電到柳營這一帶我跟您報告就是說我們目前包括台南市政府抱邊的柳營工業區"},{"start":208.851,"end":211.252,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":238.294,"end":253.039,"text":"這個還有幾個條件,除了這個水、電、土地以外,人是非常重要的關鍵。 台積電先進封裝來講的話,它還是需要一些比較高階的工程師。"},{"start":254.359,"end":277.598,"text":"就是跟一般的過去傳統的這個封裝是不太一樣,所以臺南這邊一定要有一些這個人力上面可以補得上來,這是第一件事情。 第二件事情也就是說我們的這個園區必須要轉換成這個科學園區,這科學園區就變成是國科會在主導,"},{"start":278.559,"end":299.538,"text":"所以我建議委員是不是從這個方向去思考。 第二個就是電的問題今天早上這個我想有另外一位委員也在講說我們臺南基本上目前的這個電廠但是經過我們盤點過以後臺南現在的自主率只有25%"},{"start":301.348,"end":313.365,"text":"所以我們電其實是在臺南地區是不夠的那變成說如果說你有希望這樣的話我們倒是建議委員可以在您的這個選區裡面這個接受蓋一個電廠"},{"start":317.927,"end":318.467,"text":"臺積電一定會選擇到你所希望去的地方。"},{"start":341.609,"end":354.399,"text":"謝謝部長的提醒,我想在這裡跟院長做一個請教。 院長,你如果到台南來考察還是到台南來開會的時候,你最常會在嘉義還是在沙崙下車高鐵?"},{"start":357.125,"end":357.145,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":384.896,"end":408.507,"text":"我想在這個地方,就是說不管是封測場還是說一個那個科學園區,我覺得我這個地方它有非常適合的一個交通流量。那在下一頁,就是說我們來講的話,台塘在這個地方還有165公頃的一個空地,那它的會線基地其實也是可以活用的。"},{"start":409.207,"end":409.427,"text":"賴慧如議員"},{"start":430.23,"end":430.25,"text":"臨軍縣委員"},{"start":449.428,"end":449.528,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":464.96,"end":486.527,"text":"因為南部的這個S郎帶是南部科技發展跟產業升級相當重要的那在裡面所有現在面臨到的問題我們都一併來考量但是委員特別關心是今天提到的這個大新營地區那我請國發會也把它處理一下那個經濟部甚至國科會如果有需要的話我們會把它很積極的來面對"},{"start":489.428,"end":509.354,"text":"院長,我再讓你看一張現有的這張圖,你看到的就是說我沿海我有很多力能的一個花店,那這個場區裡頭,然後我的水庫也非常的充足,我有台塘的陸寮水庫,我有白河水庫,徵溫水庫,還有那個就是我的烏山頭水庫。"},{"start":510.594,"end":534.443,"text":"這幾個水庫事實上還有就是交通,交通也非常的便利,我光是就是在國道三線,在這個區域裡頭有三個交流道,有水上、柳營,還有就是六甲的交流道,那甚至就是說我還有台37線的一個延伸在海邊,那事實上還有86,其實它這個交通是四通八達的。"},{"start":535.183,"end":561.318,"text":"四通八達的其實我這個地方因為它後續發展了所以它其實有更好的一個空間有更好的一個規劃可以來做就是說我還在這裡還是特別請院長就是說針對了這整體的一個發展我們希望加入就是智慧科技大南方產業的一個生態生態系來講的話我這個地方其實是最適合的"},{"start":561.798,"end":565.062,"text":"謝謝委員,您在上一個會期就很關心這件事,您關心之後後來我有找到"},{"start":582.382,"end":609.261,"text":"臺積電這些單位談過那因為他們也要考慮到整個地能不能達到時程目標第二個跟郭部長講的一樣就是他們希望是在科學園區所以因為有時程跟這個環評時程的問題所以是不是這樣子下個禮拜我帶著這個國科會跟這個經濟部的主管我們一起到您辦公室來討論細節期待我想科技的最後一塊拼圖"},{"start":612.123,"end":625.25,"text":"這就是S郎帶的最後一塊拼圖,有賴宜就是院長、部長還有主委的一個協助,非常謝謝。那接著要跟院長共同的來討論這一次台米颱風造成的這個我這個選區的一個重創。"},{"start":628.032,"end":642.007,"text":"七月下旬的一個台米颱風造成我這個整個鄭文熙以北西北地區的產業的一個重創那我在這裡也非常謝謝就是院長多次的就是到我的選區裡頭來"},{"start":643.508,"end":643.528,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":662.861,"end":684.981,"text":"我們很多很多的一個市民點滴在心頭在這裡也非常謝謝謝謝就是院長那我想就是今年的就是總預算應該是講明年的總預算我們知道又多增加了150幾億那當然就是我們看到總統看到你也看到了團隊也看到了就是淹水的一個經費的一個不足"},{"start":685.661,"end":709.369,"text":"那在現狀裡頭,在現狀裡頭,我在這裡,那個部長你可以,那個經理部長你請回,我最主要就是要再請教我們的農業部長,就是說整個巴掌溪的一個潰堤,那在清一的一個過程裡頭,因為我們知道持續又來了幾個颱風,大大小小的颱風,可是後續,後續怎麼樣去完成它,"},{"start":710.109,"end":715.194,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":734.011,"end":757.636,"text":"大家農業部也很幫忙,農業部這個錢已經到位了,那就是說台南市政府也積極的在那個搶修。那我是不是可以請那個就是說做一個建議,我們希望就是說採用多元的一個治水的一個手段,那我們希望,希望就是說都敢旗下強化就是區域的黃紅能量。"},{"start":759.177,"end":774.009,"text":"這個黃紅的能量我想這個龍業部長你是內行的在我們在現行的一個做法裡頭定期的清一還是河川的整治提案的一個強化那我們印證在巴掌溪這個黃紅的措施裡頭我們希望"},{"start":774.349,"end":795.787,"text":"是不是可以增加大型的一個新流域還是說增設它比較大的滯洪池甚至就是說我們傳統那個黃紅用的這個濃湯就是杯湯這種早期的時候其實在農業裡面這是最好的一個黃質淹水的一個方式有沒有比較好的一個方式就是說可以把這個淹水的問題徹底來解決呢?"},{"start":798.506,"end":806.306,"text":"我跟那個委員報告就是說針對巴掌西這邊這次的一個一個議題以後造成的這些農地流失"},{"start":806.892,"end":807.012,"text":"主席"},{"start":829.844,"end":856.962,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我想說你已經很快的進入了狀況就是農業的一個淹水一個積極的一個處理的方式那針對的這個低窪的地區在這裡我要拜託這個院長責成農業部針對低窪地區的這個滋洪池還有就是防災用的這個農業的皮糖是不是有可能把它變成就是我們多樣的一個防水的一個新的新的一個那個"},{"start":858.783,"end":874.631,"text":"新的一個方法在這裡要特別拜託那個院長那接著跟院長再討論一個農業的議題這個農業的環境污染的一個問題院長你你你吃不吃臭豆腐吃了臭豆腐加不加青菜"},{"start":879.615,"end":901.241,"text":"我想這個因人而異,有些人認為說臭豆腐是很香,有些人認為這個味道特別的濃,不喜歡。那其實工廠的會氣跟畜牧業的一個養殖場產生的一個空氣的味道,哪一個比較臭?其實是工廠的會氣臭還是畜牧場的養殖場的會氣臭?"},{"start":903.021,"end":903.041,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":961.572,"end":961.732,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:06:57 - 16:23:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155392","gazette":{"lineno":1400,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（16時7分）謝謝主席。有請院長、經濟部部長及國發會主委。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部部長、國發會主委備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：院長好。在這裡我還是要跟院長說「加油」，因為我們知道今天中午的總預算協商是破局……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有破局，沒有破局啦！還在努力、還在努力。"],["賴委員惠員：還在努力？好，所以是努力得非常辛苦。其實我們也是很害怕，因為整體總預算關係到我們區域裡面很多必須要推動的這些基礎工程，尤其是我的農水路。今天特別要來跟院長、部長及主委探討一下，總統昨天在國慶文告裡面有特別講到，他要積極推動智慧科技大南方產業生態系，其實這對我們來講是一個很大的鼓勵，為什麼？我想院長從今天早上的質詢一路走下來，每個委員區域性的發展都不一樣，像郭國文委員急得跳腳說有太多電廠在他的地方，其實我非常有感而發。早期在國民黨時代的時候是重北輕南，後來小英總統上任，到近期的時候其實南北已經慢慢拉到均衡了，可是相對的在臺南，其實也需要有個平衡的發展。本席的選區其實位在偏北，也是最沒有建設的一個地方，如果大臺南要整體發展的話，在這裡想跟三位做個探討，我們知道臺灣目前最火紅的就是護國神山──台積電，關於台積電，在7月份黃仁勳來的時候有特別講到，先進製程封裝技術的需求量其實是非常高的，台積電2.5D先進封裝其實關係著AI的關鍵，我今天早上也跟部長、主委事先做過一個探討，顯然我是不是可以請部長分析一下，到底我們這個地方需不需要？我再接著跟部長介紹一下，我們準備要來說服你們的一個說帖，就是我這個地方準備好了，有水、有電、有交通、有人才。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，針對你希望引進台積電到柳營這一帶的目標，我要跟您報告的就是，目前臺南市政府報編的柳營工業區，它是屬於經濟部底下的產業園區，但是以台積電來講，到目前為止四十幾年下來，他們都在科學園區裡面，他們不會到一般的科技園區，所以，如果您剛才所說的，包括它現在新的、back-end的後端先進製程，這個還有幾個條件，除了水、電、土地以外，人是非常重要的關鍵……"],["賴委員惠員：是，沒有錯。"],["郭部長智輝：台積電的先進封裝來講的話，它還是需要一些比較高階的工程師，就是跟一般的、過去傳統的封裝不太一樣……"],["賴委員惠員：對，當然、當然。"],["郭部長智輝：所以臺南這邊一定要在人力上可以補得上來，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，也就是說這個園區必須要轉換成科學園區……"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["郭部長智輝：科學園區就變成是國科會在主導，所以我建議委員，是不是從這個方向去思考。第二個就是電的問題，今天早上有另外一位委員也在講說，我們臺南基本上目前的這個電廠，但是經過我們盤點過以後，臺南現在的能源自主率只有25%，所以我們的電其實是……"],["賴委員惠員：電的自主率嗎，是不是？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：在臺南地區是不夠的。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["郭部長智輝：那變成是如果你希望這樣的話，我們倒是建議委員可以在您的選區裡面接受蓋一個電廠，那它就可以完全來支持300公頃這樣的一個大型的科學園區所需要用的水跟電，那麼有豐沛的水跟豐富的電，我相信台積電他們一定會選擇到你所希望去的地方。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝部長的提醒。我想在這裡要跟院長請教，院長，你如果搭高鐵到臺南來考察或是開會的時候，你最常會在嘉義還是在沙崙下車？"],["卓院長榮泰：高鐵喔？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["郭部長智輝：嘉義。"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定，看是在臺南的北邊或是南邊。"],["賴委員惠員：是。我想你應該有很多時候，即使你要到比較中間的地方例如善化，你也會在嘉義這個點下車。"],["卓院長榮泰：也會，也會。"],["賴委員惠員：相對的，我也要針對這個題目跟院長做一個探討，就是說不管是土地、交通、人才，其實我想在這一個地方，不管是設置封測廠還是科學園區，我覺得我這個地方有非常適合的交通流量。再看下一頁，就土地來講，台糖在這個地方還有165公頃的空地，它的廢線基地其實也是可以活用的；尤其我們有一個非常特別的，就是在這個區域裡頭有一個台紙工業區，它有接近五十甲的甲種工業用地。除了有這麼多的土地之外，剛才部長有特別提醒到就是電的問題，那電的問題的話，我想這是大家要共同來討論，做一個長遠性的討論。在這裡我要特別請教院長，是不是可以承諾優先，因為其實你已經答應允諾林俊憲委員特別提出來的，將台37線這條交通動線從嘉義延伸到新營段，那是不是可以承諾優先發展北臺南成為整個科技產業廊帶的重要一環呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為南部的這個S廊帶是南部科技發展跟產業升級相當重要的，那在裡面所有現在面臨到的問題，我們都一併來考量。但是，委員特別關心的是今天提到的這個大新營地區，那我請國發會也把它處理一下，還有經濟部，甚至國科會，如果有需要的話，我們會很積極地來面對它，看如何來進行。"],["賴委員惠員：院長，我再讓你看看現有的這一張圖，你看到的就是在我們沿海有很多綠能的發電，在這一個廠區裡頭，我的水庫也非常的充足，我有台糖的鹿寮水庫，我有白河水庫、曾文水庫，還有我的烏山頭水庫，除了這幾個水庫，事實上還有交通，交通也非常的便利，我光是在國道3號，在這個區域裡頭有3個交流道，有水上、柳營還有六甲的交流道。甚至我還有台37線延伸到海邊，事實上，還有台84線、台86線，其實這個交通是四通八達的。其實我這個地方因為它後續發展了，所以它其實有更好的一個空間、有更好的一個規劃可以來做。我在這裡還是要特別請院長，就是針對這整體的發展，我們希望加入智慧科技大南方產業的生態系，我這個地方其實是最適合的，所以我也希望院長可以責成兩個相關的單位在1個月內給我們一個報告，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請國發會來說明一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：非常謝謝委員，您在上一個會期就很關心這件事，那在您關心之後，其實後來我有去找，我們有跟台積電這些單位談過，因為他們也要考慮到整個地能不能達到時程目標。第二個，跟郭部長講的一樣，就是他們希望是在科學園區，因為有時程跟環評時程的問題，所以是不是這樣子？就是我在下個禮拜帶著國科會跟經濟部的主管一起到您辦公室來討論細節。"],["賴委員惠員：好，期待。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：然後我們一起來規劃跟努力。"],["賴委員惠員：我想科技的最後一塊拼圖，這個就是S廊帶的最後一塊拼圖，有賴於院長、部長還有主委的協助，非常謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們一起努力。"],["賴委員惠員：那接著要跟院長共同來討論這一次凱米颱風造成我選區的重創，在7月下旬的凱米颱風對曾文溪以北整個溪北地區的產業造成重創，我在這裡也非常謝謝院長多次到我的選區裡頭來勘查災情，給我們這些受到重創的農民很大的溫暖。今天其實不管是你來看我們的高粱，還是我們邊堤被沖刷的這些淹水狀況，其實我們很多很多的市民都點滴在心頭，在這裡也非常謝謝院長。我們知道明年的總預算又多增加了一百五十幾億，當然我們看到、總統看到、你看到了、團隊也看到了，就是治水經費的不足，經濟部長請回，因為我最主要是要請教我們的農業部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：就是整個八掌溪潰堤，那在清淤的過程裡頭，我們知道持續又來了幾個大大小小的颱風，可是後續怎麼樣去完成它，我們一直希望農業部積極的來協助。院長，那邊剛好淹下去60公頃變成一塊地，全部都是平的，整個淤積都是平的，所以就是在這個治水的過程裡頭，農業部也很幫忙，農業部這個錢已經到位了，臺南市政府也積極的在搶修，那我是不是可以做一個建議？我們希望採用多元的治水手段，我們希望多管齊下來強化區域的防洪能量。對於這個防洪的能量，我想農業部長是內行的，在我們現行的作法裡頭，包括定期的清淤、河川的整治、堤岸的強化，我們印證在八掌溪這個防洪的措施裡頭，我們希望是不是可以增加大型的新流域？還是增設比較大的滯洪池？甚至是我們傳統防洪用的農塘（即埤塘）？這種在早期的時候，其實在農業裡面，這是最好的防治淹水的方式，有沒有比較好的方式可以把淹水的問題澈底解決呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，針對八掌溪這次的議題以後，造成這些農地流失，後續會重新整治的過程裡面，就像您剛才講的，就是說有一些滯洪池是在地的滯洪，是必須要的，避免影響到周遭這些居民的部分。另外，怎麼樣把水還沒有進到我們農田的時候把它分流？這個部分我想我們跟經濟部水利署已經在研議一些後續的規劃了。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝部長。我想你已經很快的進入了狀況，就是對於農業的淹水有一個積極的處理方式。針對低窪的地區，在這裡我要拜託院長責成農業部，針對低窪地區的滯洪池，還有就是防災用的農業的埤塘，是不是有可能把它變成我們多樣的防水、一個新的方法？在這裡要特別拜託院長。","接著再跟院長討論一個農業的議題──農業環境污染的問題。院長，你吃不吃臭豆腐？吃臭豆腐加不加青菜？"],["卓院長榮泰：加辣椒。"],["賴委員惠員：會加？我想這是因人而異，有些人認為臭豆腐很香，有些人則認為這個味道特別濃，不喜歡。工廠的廢氣跟畜牧業養殖場在空氣中產生的味道，哪一個比較臭？是工廠的廢氣臭？還是畜牧業養殖場的廢氣臭？其實不同的領域是沒有辦法來比較。今天就是要跟院長做一個探討，你知道在我們臺南的養豬場、養雞場是不是有空氣污染，還是設定在一個聞嗅師，他是用聞的。"],["卓院長榮泰：還是要科學的分析跟數據。"],["賴委員惠員：對，他沒有用……這個就存在一個很大的困難喔，部長，是不是這個樣子？你應該非常的清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請環保單位、環境部來督促，應該是要有科學的依據、大家的標準，不能用主觀啦！"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告一下，就是在今年年初的時候，其實秘書長已經有召開協調會，針對有關於農場的部分跟工廠的部分會做分離，不會用工廠的標準去處理這個議題。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。在這裡就是要提醒院長，如果對於養豬、養雞的部分你是用工業的標準來罰款……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不應該。"],["賴委員惠員：對，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在二樓的是我們立法委員麥玉珍委員的志工及朋友團，麥委員本人帶來的，歡迎、歡迎大家！","報告院會，現在我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（16時23分）","繼續開會（16時33分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:38","end_time":"2024-10-11T16:06:43+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155391","委員名稱":"洪申翰","duration":938,"start_time":"2024-10-11T15:51:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/v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院長午安,那因為時間的關係,我就直接進入重點。 院長我有看到您在很多地方,也包括這個會期的施政報告都有提到,會來大力的推動這個二次的能源轉型,尤其是深度節能的部分。"},{"start":44.528,"end":71.902,"text":"那這部分我想大家其實都非常非常認同這是很重要的政策方向我去年在杜拜的時候參加聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面他也講了這兩個重要的方向一個是要全力發展再生能源另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率所以這段時間我其實看到無論是賴總統包括卓院長包括郭部長都時常的表達對於深度節能的期望這部分我想大家都看到了"},{"start":72.602,"end":94.189,"text":"議員長"},{"start":94.684,"end":116.834,"text":"我必須說,其實我在讀完這份8月的這份計畫的內容以後,就是我現在可以拿得到的資料,我確實感覺目前的這個計畫的內容,跟卓院長也好,或賴總統,也包括郭部長,其實在媒體前面談到的這個期望,我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差。"},{"start":119.025,"end":134.439,"text":"這段時間我們其實也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論也希望能夠再給目前的這個方案一些更多積極性正面的這個建議所以在這邊我想來跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論那院長很清楚其實台灣並不是"},{"start":135.646,"end":161.71,"text":"我們第一天或第一年來推動節能,其實大概有十幾二十年的時間,臺灣都在推動節能。 那我們過去其實也花了蠻多的預算,在做一些單一設備的汰換,比方說很多的節能的冷氣、冰箱,那在工業裡面也包括很多節能的設備、機台等等等,其實我們過去也花了很多資源在汰換。 那這些做法其實當然都會有一些初步的成果。"},{"start":162.674,"end":179.592,"text":"那最近我看總統院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO就是這個我們節能技術服務產業來協助我們的工作那這絕對是一個對的方向可是現在同時也是這一群產業界的朋友一直想要提醒"},{"start":180.529,"end":205.41,"text":"如果要做到真正的深度節能的話就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次那他們都提出一個非常重要的建議喔他們說如果要做到深度節能那麼政府的政策或者政府的補助應該是要讓節能績效越好的人能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持也就是要看績效"},{"start":206.724,"end":214.546,"text":"報告委員我非常贊同您的這個指教這個表現在節能上面表現越好的人我們一定會給他incentive那至於這個incentive要怎麼做當然我們會跟這個委員或者跟產業的這一些朋友"},{"start":234.672,"end":252.378,"text":"所以部長我在這份計畫裡面我們當然現在看到了一些你對於大小大中小用戶的分類這也是對的可是大概絕大部分的計畫資源還是都是在擺在單一設備的設備補助裡面在這個計畫裡面還是看到這件事情"},{"start":253.078,"end":276.677,"text":"那這件事應該做,我也不反對做這件事情,但不能只做這件事情。部長報告委員,我想那一份資料可能是比較舊一點。我們在8月底9月初的時候,我們就已經有稍微在修正了。那麼修正當然是根據這個院長的這個指示。那我們現在先從大的"},{"start":277.5,"end":279.622,"text":"部長 我要說的事情是你做用戶的分類這事情我贊成"},{"start":297.506,"end":300.388,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":316.861,"end":334.63,"text":"這件事情就是我們要說你怎麼樣走來評估你的績效我怎麼樣來給資源一個最關鍵的一個核心的概念尤其是尤其是很多的這個能資訊管理系統的部分所以不然我確實在這份內容就目前這是因為我這10月的時候"},{"start":335.47,"end":362.224,"text":"在跟這個相關部會要求請他們提供的資料目前還是沒有那麼看到這一點的東西所以很希望這個部分能夠先把它放進去部長這應該沒有問題吧沒有問題謝謝這個委員我們不斷的在update這個資料因為我們現在主要還是能源系統的這個改變當然您指教的非常好我們現在跟國外的這個業者也在討論怎麼樣引進這個好的這個系統技術進來"},{"start":365.586,"end":379.186,"text":"我們現在是以大代小跟您報告就譬如說我們在中鋼或者我們在中油然後它的整個供應鏈我們是從中鋼做然後它整個供應鏈在這個一套供應鏈來實施這個深度決能"},{"start":380.848,"end":396.186,"text":"部長我現在所以我說的說我們這不是只是對大的也不是只是對中鋼我們是要對現在的產業業界怎麼協助他們把系統性能效的績效評估的方法客觀科學的建立起來以後包括"},{"start":396.847,"end":411.238,"text":"銀行要融資,它也要一個績效評估的方法,它也要一個財務評估的方法,這都是基礎,這是第一點。第二點我要跟部長講到,很重要的事情大家都提到,如果要把系統性節能給做好的話,我們就需要有用電大數據的data。"},{"start":412.119,"end":426.826,"text":"那這個大數據的data來做深入分析才能把改善的問題點給找到那這是很多SQO業者都共同的心聲那但是現在這個擴大data應用的部分坦白說在這份資料裡面也看不太到"},{"start":427.466,"end":431.432,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":444.71,"end":446.831,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":464.889,"end":479.998,"text":"以防說建築節能是我們內政部在管的可是好像在這裡面也沒有看到建築節能的部分那也包括我們很多節能的產業包括節能計畫他需要融資他需要很多財務的方案這部分國發會或金管會"},{"start":480.538,"end":480.558,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":502.953,"end":523.462,"text":"希望其他部會有更大的程度來支持深度節能的工作,所以這部分也希望院長可以看到,也包括現在的地方政府,在這裡面也看不到地方政府的角色,在國際上面大家都知道節能很重要關鍵的角色是地方政府,但地方政府也沒有進來在這份計畫的內容裡面,所以這些種種我們大概提了一個這個建議,希望院長"},{"start":524.582,"end":539.578,"text":"可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下有沒有可能在優化我們目前方案的空間也包括把我們接下來要修農能源管理法能源管理法裡面把上述的這些建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求"},{"start":540.359,"end":541.7,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":556.952,"end":559.713,"text":"我們在產業新條例草案上面第10條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資遞減項目"},{"start":580.865,"end":600.843,"text":"部長我這邊是在幫你爭取啦希望其他的部會可以更加的大力的支持啦那這部分也希望院長可以來支持跟有一個這樣子清楚的指示我剛有做過統合的一些會議請簡單解答跟委員報告一下喔您剛才提到的建築綠色金融我們全部都放在永續會議裡面都有列觀那我們現在也有在會議在整合"},{"start":601.654,"end":629.733,"text":"經濟部長跟我談過好幾次這個深度減能的部分我建議如果我們要有一個深度減能的方案的話這應該是要有一個跨部會的方案該放進來的我們應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓這樣子那再來一個事情我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題其實最近颱風過後我們有許多關於防災治水的討論那其實我想讓院長知道目前其實也有很多關於減災防洪治水的一些新的做法"},{"start":630.433,"end":654.819,"text":"那我一般可能叫做淨自然工法那這部分也希望讓院長知道簡單來說這個所謂淨自然工法的意思就是不再只是求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化這過去其實也產生了很多的問題可能會造成河道的下切或者是水泥構造物被破壞所以你就不斷的要用新的工程一再反覆的甚至被績效這叫做永續工程做不完的工程啦"},{"start":655.279,"end":682.222,"text":"五年就要做一次五年就要投資一次資源那這幾年其實經濟部跟農業部他們其實也透過這個禁自然工法的導入已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要的示範案例其實在國內外都非常有名包括像在花蓮的蝙蜥包括在新北貢寮的遠望坑溪包括南投種花坑溪目前的案例其實已經越來越多我自己也都到現場去看過其實真的做得非常好"},{"start":682.842,"end":706.072,"text":"所以這個做法我想跟院長講,這個做法其實有很多好處。 第一個,安全的防洪減災,這是沒有問題的。 第二個,農民取水灌溉也能夠穩定,這都被驗證了。 再來,枯水期可以不斷流,也能夠恢復棲地的生態。 最重要的事情是,他的經費常常只要那種水泥化的工程的二分之一,而且他可以撐的時間可能更長。"},{"start":706.812,"end":721.572,"text":"在經費預算上面都有好處所以院長我想請問你覺得像這種能夠兼顧多營我這邊的投影片寫說五個願望幾乎是一次滿足你要安全減災你要看經費你要不斷流你要生態富裕"},{"start":722.941,"end":736.538,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":739.602,"end":765.049,"text":"今年修了,上半年修,下半年又壞,颱風來又壞,大水來又壞,能夠從有系統性的治水,從上游整治,一直到下游能夠排出,這樣整個系統來處理,我希望能夠朝這個方向來做,謝謝委員提供這個。 議長我覺得不管是經濟部、水利署或者是農業部也好,我覺得都應該更大程度來參考這個淨自然工法,我這邊有幾個期待啦。 議長其實最近我們看到行政院也在籌組水及流域永續的小組,"},{"start":766.75,"end":781.629,"text":"我目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來做召集我自己很希望我們能夠把這個河川復育的工作跟目標可以放入到這個永續推動小組這是一個院級的小組我目前知道是政委有開過會了"},{"start":782.91,"end":802.964,"text":"那請副院長來做一個督導來推動更大程度推動這個近自然的工法那這很需要行政院的高度因為這是跨部會的可能有包括經濟部的可能包括農業部的那以這個作為一個重要的目標達成剛才講到這幾個多營的效果都能夠達成因為我們看到其實像在國際上面下一張"},{"start":804.145,"end":818.921,"text":"我們看到其實包括像美國他們有所謂的健康流域計畫他們有幾個重要的地景、地形、棲地、水質、水溫、生態狀態幾個很重要的指標來評估什麼樣是一個健康的流域我們希望能夠參考這些國際上面的做法"},{"start":819.281,"end":847.298,"text":"那把剛剛說河川富裕的目標放到我們那個工作小組跟我們部會現在在推動包括剛剛院長說的我們新增100多億的治水預算裡面都應該用這個新的做法新的思維再往前走而不一定只停留在過去只是一味的水泥化的狀態這是希望在這邊想要提醒院長的所以院長我想問喔我們能不能替尤其是在包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川富裕有一個政策上面的目標比方說"},{"start":848.399,"end":874.969,"text":"未來4年,我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川,達成這個所謂河川富裕的工作,去一步一步的完成剛才說健康流域的指標。那這個政策的目標如果出來的話,不管是農業部,不管是經濟部,下面的相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向做,我們就可以有一個新的治水,或者是新的水治理的一個新的局面,用的經費也更少,反而更健康。"},{"start":876.159,"end":903.147,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是有關你剛才所提到的一個河川的覆域裡面其實他是用流域的概念從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川的部分然後上游的野溪的部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計到符合生態的一個規範的一個施工的工法但是一個工法的改善會在跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念我們會去訂出大概年度上我們需要處理多少個"},{"start":904.428,"end":931.689,"text":"部長在觀念上面我想大家都討論過但我們現在希望有一個具體的政策目標在這個政策目標之下才能夠展開大家的執行跟績效的確認所以希望有個這個政策目標能夠包括現在行政院有一個小組嘛能用這個平台來做一個政策目標的規劃然後我們看我們能夠在這幾年可以有多少的進展有多少的溪流能夠更進一步的做到河川富裕這是我們的期望啦可以嗎院長"},{"start":937.654,"end":937.944,"text":"謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:51:05 - 16:06:43","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155391","gazette":{"lineno":1348,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（15時51分）謝謝韓院長，請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：院長午安。因為時間的關係，我就直接進入重點，院長，我看到您在很多地方，也包括這個會期的施政報告，都有提到會大力推動二次的能源轉型，尤其是深度節能的部分，這部分我想大家都非常非常認同，這是很重要的政策方向。我去年在杜拜參加了聯合國氣候變遷大會，裡面也講了這兩個重要的方向，一個是要全力發展再生能源，另外一個就是要來做深度節能跟提高能源效率。所以這段時間我也看到，無論是賴總統，包括卓院長，包括郭部長，都時常表達對於深度節能的期望，這部分我想大家都看到了。","當然在今年8月的時候，我也看到經濟部跟能源署提出一份深度節能推動計畫，然後送到行政院會來做一些報告，所以院長對於這個計畫的內容應該也有一些了解，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我必須說，其實我在讀完8月這份計畫的內容以後，就我現在可以拿得到的資料來看，我確實感覺目前這個計畫的內容，跟卓院長也好，或賴總統，包括郭部長在媒體前面談到的這個期望，我自己覺得可能會有一些不小的落差，所以這段時間我們也跟很多節能產業的先進專家們討論，也希望能夠再給目前這個方案一些更多積極性、正面性的建議，所以在這邊，我想跟部長跟院長也來做一些討論。","院長很清楚，其實臺灣並不是第一天或第一年來推動節能，大概有十幾二十年的時間，臺灣都在推動節能，我們過去也花了滿多的預算，在做一些單一設備的汰換，比方說很多節能的冷氣、冰箱；在工業部分，也包括很多節能的設備、機臺等等。其實我們過去也花了很多資源在做汰換，這些做法當然都會有一些初步的成果，最近我看總統、院長跟部長也都一直提到要好好善用ESCO，就是我們的節能技術服務產業，來協助我們相關的工作，這絕對是一個對的方向。","可是現在同時也是這一群產業界朋友一直想要提醒的，如果要做到真正的深度節能，就不能只停留在設備汰換的層次，他們都提出一個非常重要的建議。他們認為如果要做到深度節能，政府的政策或者政府的補助，應該是要讓節能績效越好的人，能夠得到政府更多的獎勵或支持，也就是要看績效，不是只是單純你換一個設備，我就給你一筆錢，這是他們共同的建議，我不知道院長、部長同不同意這些產業界專家們的這個看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我非常贊同您的指教，在節能上面表現越好的人，我們一定會給他\nincentive，至於這個incentive要怎麼做？當然，我們會跟委員、跟產業界朋友來交換意見。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我在這份計畫裡面……"],["郭部長智輝：看不到。"],["洪委員申翰：我們現在看到了一些對於大、中、小用戶的分類，這是對的，可是絕大部分的計畫資源還是擺在單一設備的設備補助裡，在這個計畫還是看到這件事情，這件事情是該做，我也不反對，但不能只做這件事情，部長！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想那份資料可能比較舊一點，在8月底、9月初時，我們就已經有稍微再修正，這當然是根據院長的指示修正。我們現在先從大的國營機構開始處理，並可能在下兩個禮拜公告，請院長來看，目前我們有三大醫院，從中選一家醫院讓大家看。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要說的是，做用戶分類我贊成，哪些優先，這個我都贊成。重點是，我覺得產業界對於怎麼樣把生態系建立起來的建議，希望部會應該聽進去。大家都表達了很重要的一點，即建立所謂系統性的能效，包括績效評估，還有驗證的方法。就這件事情來說，其實是怎麼評估績效、怎麼給資源的最關鍵核心概念，尤其在很多能源資訊管理系統的部分。所以部長，我確實在這份內容……這是我10月向相關部會要求，請他們提供的資料，但目前還是沒能看到這一點，因此很希望這部分能先放進去。部長，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有問題，謝謝委員！其實我們不斷在update資料……"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們現在主要還是在能源系統的改變，剛才您指教得非常好，我們現在跟國外業者也在討論怎麼樣引進好的系統技術進來！跟您報告，我們現在是以大帶小，譬如我們在中鋼或者中油，它的整個供應鏈……我們是從中鋼做，由它的一套供應鏈來實施深度節能。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我現在要說的是，這不只是對大的，也不只是對中鋼，我們是要協助現在的產業界把系統性能效的績效評估方法，以客觀科學建立起來……"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["洪委員申翰：之後包括銀行融資，也要有績效評估方法，也要有財務評估方法，這都是基礎，這是第一點。第二點，我要跟部長講到一件很重要的事情，大家都提到如果要把系統性節能做好，就需要有用電大數據data，以這個大數據data來做深入分析，才能把改善的問題點找到，這是很多ESCO業者的共同心聲。但在擴大data應用部分，坦白說，在這份資料裡也看不太到！現在這些data都在台電，因此產業界很希望台電能協助用電data的數據統整分析，當然，要顧到個資跟商業秘密的保障，這是一定的。但是請台電承擔下這些data數據的統整工作，給業界做節能的最大支持，這就像AI一樣，我們要有足夠大量的data導入，才有辦法找到最有效率跟最好的方法，道理其實沒有差很多，這部分也是大家的心聲。","最後，講到深度節能的工作，現在好像只有經濟部在做，比方建築節能是內政部在管的，可是在這裡面沒有看到建築節能的部分。其實很多節能產業、節能計畫需要融資、需要很多財務方案，這部分國發會或金管會也扮演很重要的角色，也希望能更大力支持；環境部最近在訂碳費，這些基礎費率如果可以創造出差別誘因，也會對廠商投入節能建立很大的誘因，但這些事情都需要跨部會合作，所以院長，深度節能計畫不能只有經濟部在做！這些跨部會的工作整合……部長，我這是在幫你爭取，希望其他部會要更大程度來支持深度節能的工作，所以這部分也希望院長可以看到。包括地方政府，現在在這裡面看不到地方政府的角色！在國際上，大家都知道節能很重要，但關鍵的角色是地方政府，只是這份計畫內容地方政府並沒有進來。凡此種種，我們提了一項建議，希望院長可以再跟幾個相關部會討論一下，有沒有可能再優化目前方案的空間，也包括接下來要修正的能源管理法，希望能把上述建議的概念放到法裡面去做規範性的要求，所以這幾個部分也是今天為什麼在這邊跟院長來做討論，因為這可能真的不只是經濟部的事情，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，在內政部包括關於建築的部分，還有在金管會包括綠色金融的部分，我們都有其他的考量，只是沒有把它放在這個裡面。"],["洪委員申翰：對，我們在這邊其實看不到這些內容……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，都有討論。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這部分再麻煩院長……"],["郭部長智輝：我們在產業創新條例草案的第十條之一有納入節能減碳設備作為投資抵減的項目，從過去10億，現在提高到18億的金額，先跟委員報告。"],["洪委員申翰：是，部長，我這邊是在幫你爭取啦，希望其他部會可以更加大力支持，這部分也希望院長可以支持，並給出清楚的指示。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：國發會有做過統合會議，請主委簡單答復。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，您剛剛提到的建築、綠色金融，我們全部都放在永續會裡面，都有列管，我們現在也會再整合，經濟部長跟我談過好幾次深度節能的部分，所以我們都有在討論。"],["洪委員申翰：是，我建議如果我們要有深度節能方案的話，這應該是要有跨部會的方案，該放進來的應該放進來讓大家知道整體的輪廓。"],["郭部長智輝：我想非常抱歉……"],["洪委員申翰：再來，我想跟院長再討論下面一個問題。其實最近颱風過後，我們有許多關於防災治水的討論，我想讓院長知道，目前其實也有很多關於減災、防洪、治水的新作法，一般稱為近自然工法，這部分也希望讓院長知道。簡單來說，所謂近自然工法的意思就是，不再只求把過去河川好像三面光的水泥化，這在過去其實也產生了很多問題，可能會造成河道下切、水泥構造物被破壞，所以就不斷的要用新工程一再反覆，甚至被譏笑這叫做永續工程，就是做不完的工程啦，5年就要做一次，5年就要投資一次資源！","這幾年經濟部跟農業部也透過近自然工法的導入，已經孵化好幾個河川復育的重要示範案例，其實在國內外都非常有名，包括花蓮的鱉溪、新北貢寮的遠望坑溪及南投的種瓜坑溪，目前的案例其實已經越來越多，我自己也到現場去看過，其實真的做得非常好。所以我想跟院長說，這個作法其實有很多好處，第一個，安全地防洪減災，這是沒有問題的。第二個，農民取水灌溉也能穩定，這都被驗證了。再來，枯水期可以不斷流，也能夠恢復棲地生態，最重要的事情是它的經費常常只要水泥化工程的二分之一，而且可以撐的時間可能更長，在經費預算上都有好處。院長，我想請問，你覺得像這種能兼顧多贏，我這邊投影片寫的是五個願望幾乎一次滿足，要安全減災、要砍經費、要不斷流、要生態復育都可以做得到的作法，我們是不是有可能更大程度來做鼓勵？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，跟委員報告，明年的治水預算我增加了159億，達到551億，那時候增加這個預算就是希望朝──也許不是這麼具體，我們是希望朝不要今年上半年修了下半年又壞、颱風來又壞、大水來又壞，而是能夠系統性的治水，從上游整治一直到下游能夠排出，這樣整個系統性的來處理，我希望朝這個方向來做，謝謝委員提供這樣的想法。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我覺得不管是經濟部水利署或農業部也好，都應該更大程度的參考這個近自然工法。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我這邊有幾個期待，院長，最近我們看到行政院也在籌組「水及流域永續推動小組」，目前看到是由鄭麗君副院長來召集，我自己很希望我們能夠把河川復育的工作跟目標放入到這個永續推動小組，這是一個院級的小組，我目前所知道的是政委有開過會了，請副院長來督導，來更大程度推動這個近自然工法，這很需要由行政院的高度，因為這是跨部會的，可能包括經濟部，可能包括農業部，以這個做為重要目標，讓剛剛提到的這幾個多贏效果都能夠達成。因為我們看到在國際上，像美國有所謂的健康流域計畫，用包括地景、地形、棲地、水質、水文、生態狀態這幾個重要指標來評估什麼樣是一條健康流域，我們希望能參考這些國際上的做法，把剛剛所說的河川復育的目標放到那個工作小組，跟現在部會在推動的，包括剛剛院長說的我們新增一百多億的治水預算，都應該用這個新做法、新思維去往前走，而不一定只停留在過去一味的水泥化的狀態，這是在這邊想要提醒院長的。院長，我想問，我們能不能替……尤其是包括接下來的小組跟部會裡面讓河川復育有一個政策上的目標，比方說，未來4年我們希望能夠推動多少條的河川達成所謂河川復育的工作，去一步步的完成剛剛所說的健康流域指標，這個政策目標如果出來的話，不管是農業部，不管是經濟部，下面相關的執行單位都可以往這個方向去做，我們就可以有一個新的治水或新的水治理的新局面，用的經費也更少，反而更健康。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告一下，有關於您剛才所提到的河川復育，其實是用流域的概念，從上游的野溪一直到下游的河川部分……"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["陳部長駿季：然後上游的野溪部分其實會base在地景跟地貌去設計符合生態規範的施工工法，那是工法的改善……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我同意……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再跟經濟部這邊用流域的概念去訂出年度上需要處理多少條野溪……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，在觀念上面，我想大家都討論過，但我們現在希望能有個具體的政策目標，在這個政策目標之下，才能展開大家的執行跟績效的確認，所以希望有個政策目標。行政院現在也有個小組嘛，能用這個平臺去做政策目標的規劃，然後看我們能夠在這幾年有多少的進展，有多少條溪流能更進一步的做到河川復育，這是我們的期望啦，可以嗎，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請兩位部長把今天委員的建議帶到小組裡面去做充分的討論。"],["洪委員申翰：好，先跟院長謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長跟相關首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第13位賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:59","end_time":"2024-10-11T15:50:53+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155390","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","duration":959,"start_time":"2024-10-11T15:34:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638ae07509935a9890a1de834b4d1bbb5bfe82f3c5f0281254ed649dec70b0c4ff95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.72221875,"end":5.363468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.235968750000001,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.14284375,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.88034375,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.81596875,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.832843750000002,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.254718750000002,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.32221875,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.18284375,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.140343750000003,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.50721875,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.992218750000006,"end":37.915343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.32034375,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.002843750000004,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.711593750000006,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.00409375000001,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.11534375000001,"end":112.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.45221875,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.45971875000001,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":128.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.23909375000001,"end":127.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.55096875,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.99784375000002,"end":133.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.73159375,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.59221875,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.61721875,"end":138.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.24971875,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":141.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.69659375,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.92409375,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.84784375,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.83909375000002,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.92284375,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.61846875,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.67534375000002,"end":171.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.56534375,"end":173.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.71721875,"end":173.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.99534375000002,"end":179.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.44221875000002,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.00721875000002,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.85096875000002,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.45409375,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.34409375,"end":183.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.36096875,"end":183.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.42784375000002,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.38534375,"end":190.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.61721875,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.36784375000002,"end":195.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.33784375000002,"end":197.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.33346875,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.70034375,"end":204.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.96096875,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.76596875,"end":211.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.14971875,"end":213.51659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.75284375,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.89159375000003,"end":220.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.40159375000002,"end":221.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.49846875,"end":227.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.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別希望延續。院長,你知不知道電業法最近公告的修正,修正的差異是什麼?你知不知道?委員請他講哪一個重點告訴我們。電業法修正最大...部長要不要救援一下?電業法修正最大的重點是什麼?"},{"start":145.899,"end":173.217,"text":"就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整這兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗電業法修正最大的差異不再是電價這些問題這是肢解最大的核心的問題是改變了2016修正版本之後一個重要的決策叫做台電拆分我這樣提示之後你們有印象嗎2016年的電業法要求能源勝車的規劃跟走向是什麼"},{"start":174.148,"end":188.522,"text":"報告委員那個時候我還沒有進來沒有進來這個行政院對你現在要修嘛表示你要修舊的對不對最近除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外上一次是2016年修的這最大的差異是什麼"},{"start":189.835,"end":204.416,"text":"兩位不知道,很可怕,沒關係,我來跟兩位說分明。第二把修正最關鍵的就是要把第六條拿掉。曾經啊,這我們講說為了要扶植綠電,為了要打造一個健康的環境,民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊。"},{"start":205.597,"end":232.864,"text":"財務不透明做事不效率還有長電等等亂七八糟必須要改革必須要整頓所以搞出一個電業法的版本這個電業法的版本告訴大家6年之後還一定要分拆等於走向民營化的路把這個發書配跟售拆分對不對有一個這樣子重要的指導綱領在這個地方對不對好2024馬上公佈要進入修正的電業法裡面這條刪除了"},{"start":233.764,"end":240.911,"text":"這是重大的政策轉變吧,院長,是嗎?是的。是對不對?那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎?"},{"start":242.864,"end":270.462,"text":"政策的延續它不一定是一成不變的,我們現在面對很多的事情,就是在整個大的能源架構底下,我們從蒸汽、展綠到多元到核,這個都一定是照著程序走的,但內容是可以調整的,時程也是可以彈性的。大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題,我今天就先不談配比的問題,但我談別的,比如說電液法修正就是一個很好的題目,你剛剛講說會延續又說要修正,這其實是矛盾的概念,我先問,這個電液法的修正誰的決策?"},{"start":273.605,"end":279.929,"text":"是院長您的決策,比如行政院開會決議的結果,還是說郭部長提出來的想法,還是就是現在你們還有這個氣候變遷委員會對不對,經濟發展相關的委員會,來自總統的指示嗎?是誰的決策?誰決定要把這個第6條拿掉?"},{"start":287.182,"end":313.882,"text":"報告委員這個是我們根據臺電他實際上面做的評估所以提供給我們這個經濟部經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司其實沒有辦法讓這個三家公司都能夠走向比較好運作的情況還是保持原來的狀態才有可能做得更完善"},{"start":315.731,"end":322.649,"text":"所以是台電找經濟部,經濟部基本上同意了對不對?那你們是不是打臉前朝政府?那前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢?"},{"start":323.359,"end":349.696,"text":"我們必須要與時俱進,我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛,對不對,所以我們與時俱進,然後我們提出來,那請大院所有的委員來討論,好,院長,我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性的,因為概念上來講,本席向主張,面對問題才是解決問題的第一步,那我現在要正式請教你,這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理?"},{"start":351.291,"end":360.215,"text":"大的戰略就是展綠蒸汽減煤到非核這大的戰略其中任何一個要隨時式來調整的那種戰術性的問題"},{"start":362.496,"end":385.155,"text":"主管單位都必須拿出來討論所以剛剛委員講這個討論目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來在主管部分在討論的過程當中他一定收集更多那到這裡來我們還有政委還有院會會做多重的考慮你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼對於政策的影響對於台電財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":385.782,"end":387.143,"text":"臺電是一個絆腳石,他們說財務不透明,問題一大堆對不對?"},{"start":407.573,"end":426.65,"text":"關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場讓很多人用競爭的方式避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價短購的方式來處理對不對所以台電才必須要整理必須要重整對不對那你今天現在看起來修法的方向看起來是開倒車"},{"start":427.691,"end":429.252,"text":"那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的"},{"start":443.458,"end":454.892,"text":"後來到現在我們有新的命題也就是說2020年以後零碳是全球的共識所以我們就要來調整"},{"start":458.376,"end":477.691,"text":"照你這樣講,零碳是優勢趨勢對不對?所以相對來講,綠電未來發展政府的輔助的比例要越來越低,因為大家都搶著做對不對?那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啦?綠電當初的規劃我們到2030年的時候,希望能夠滿足所有的出國的廠商,他需要綠電的廠商,我們都能夠滿足他們。"},{"start":478.629,"end":494.254,"text":"部長這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦我先跟你講這幾件事情第一個對於產業的影響本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場希望來共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候他有心理預期也就是過了幾年之後我的市場會越來越自由會透過競爭的方式變成一個正常的市場"},{"start":495.234,"end":509.912,"text":"可是這6年來用高價短購的方式你先走這個本行沒有意見可是你先走之後這些先佔的產業把好處都佔光了然後你現在好處佔光他們領走了高額的補助之後你現在講說好我們在市場正常化的角度我們不做了回歸舊制"},{"start":511.033,"end":535.725,"text":"那請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎?這是對於你未來更多的產業投入可能造成的衝擊。再來我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力啊。我們講說自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力對不對?當然你講台電有員工的問題啊、有拆分、有債務的問題本身都了解,我也沒有要拆台電的台的意思,但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情之後可能的後果會是什麼?"},{"start":536.665,"end":541.996,"text":"後果是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的佔比繼續增加投資的時候,你還有哪樣的工具啊?"},{"start":542.984,"end":566.895,"text":"我們接下來就是本席要談的阿我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地我們要用短購電價的方式來處理當然也被大家這個批評對不對當初大家批評短購電價很高用了很多納稅錢的時候你們講未來這是個過渡未來台電會自由化等等公民電廠通通跑出來之後成本就會下降因為他會競爭現在前提條件消失了你的短購機制會退場還是不會退場"},{"start":570.433,"end":574.357,"text":"委員長 這個是比較大的事情 你們有沒有討論過這樣的事情?準告現在不存在"},{"start":578.769,"end":597.276,"text":"怎麼會沒有存在?新的部份是不存在的部長我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題離岸風電是下一段但是短購怎麼會不存在呢?你每一年台電都有報告就看這張圖表就好您說的是光電的部份對啊光電啊現在從2019年開始你的短購支出是248.8億然後2020 353億2021年426億2022年588億到了2023年905億"},{"start":608.46,"end":636.579,"text":"這是不是一個可觀的成長?誰買單?準夠的價格是往下走的哪有往下走你看折線圖平均購價從一度4.26到了2023的資料是5.20這是台電的公開資料部長你可以再確認一下那我想請問院長跟部長2024馬上要到年底啦今年它是上升還是下降?這個當然台電要再評估它現在的發電用電跟這些業者之間的狀況那我們現在需求的是因為我們將來"},{"start":637.847,"end":639.809,"text":"你預期未來這個總額的支出跟平均的價格是會上升還是會下降?"},{"start":655.567,"end":673.013,"text":"這個要再經過計算。我是當然希望能夠越穩定越好。我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現上來看,它是看不到任何下降的可能。這就回到了大家關鍵的題目。您所看到的是因為這個用電需求成長。當然,你光電的數量也成長嘛。所以總而會成長,對不對?"},{"start":675.273,"end":695.5,"text":"那我的意思是講你的總額會成長但是你的市場不改變這些業者是不是繼續依賴所謂的政府賺購那你台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大這就是我講你這些東西政策你講你要有空間可是修正之後它是會有副作用或是有後果的對不對?報告委員我們未來的綠電銷售我們是分倉制度"},{"start":696.38,"end":723.89,"text":"所以需要綠電的,他可以購買更高的這個綠電。 那麼一般我們國內的廠商,你都要預估的時候,我本來想問你幾年之後他會開始往下走,進入一個正常的機制,看起來也是回答不出來。因為最終他必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的一個交易平台,這個平台就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。"},{"start":724.79,"end":750.3,"text":"我現在接下來講現在財務負擔是節節上升我接下來講離岸豐電剛剛部長有講離岸豐電就沒有短購對不對那我們就把離岸豐電的帳來算一算離岸豐電分三期第一期示範豐廠第二期潛力廠子當初為了推廣所以你先短購當初被大家罵爆嘛一度7塊就是從這個地方來的對不對你說第三期開始我們沒短購了開始進入市場機制對不對市場機制出問題啦三之一標都標出去了很多行政契約不簽了"},{"start":751.32,"end":765.647,"text":"因為開始好難喔做不下去了成本好高算不過來我也不見得找得到對不對你們剛剛講說企業都要用電2030都要用電對不對可是為什麼這些廠商在蓋的時候果汁不淺說我店可能賣不掉政府要幫忙為什麼"},{"start":768.018,"end":788.63,"text":"有沒有這樣的事?先說有沒有這樣的事?應該有吧?我跟委員報告,三之一他跟政府之間是有合約的,所以我們會按照彼此之間的合約,我們會承諾讓他走下去。然後我們會幫助他,剛才您所知道的,他因為跟他的財務的關係,他得不到銀行的..."},{"start":791.351,"end":818.92,"text":"院長我今天時間有限阿,你今天講說我會輔導為什麼?但是你實際上你政府在準備什麼?你是不是要把中鋼拉進來?搞一個基金弄個公司然後一樣搞保駕收購只是他帳不掛在台電掛在別的地方那請問這是不是變相懟購?對不對?要出現一個問題所以三之一期的最大問題叫關不保收阿你所有的事情都圍繞著這些廠商在做為什麼?因為其實你們剛剛也都提了我綠電要把比例拉上來對不對?我要滿足供電的需求"},{"start":819.56,"end":832.81,"text":"那你因為這樣然後你的政策被裹挾政府是標案的業主捏標案的業主開具力之後然後這個得標廠商做不到你不但沒有制裁他沒有處理他你還要輔導他拯救他改變規則這樣對嗎"},{"start":835.593,"end":850.853,"text":"委員我們這個目的是讓那個電費他的成本可以下降所以我們輔導所有的廠商解決他的問題主要的目的是讓他售電的價格成本可以往下走這個是我們最大的不一樣"},{"start":851.254,"end":867.421,"text":"你搞了保,三之一你打算搞保駕收購,你就一樣是乾坤大挪移對不對,國發基金又要來了,聯合再生輸一屁股沒關係,中鋼再搞一次,我是擔心到最後又是,都是納稅人的錢,只是不同的名為。 三之二,我還有,我還有,我還有講話,三之二,國產化出問題啦,結果我們打算要放寬,因為WTO等等的訴訟,我就問,我就問,你當初設計這一套,豐電短購帶國產的標準,是對的還是錯的?"},{"start":882.656,"end":903.153,"text":"國內產業能夠上來接手 這個方向絕對是對的方向是對的 但是政策是錯的對不對 因為你的標準不對吧國內的廠商確實是有些進展得很快的現在所有的推動都被列出目前時空的變化太快我們不可能用一種策略 然後可以執行的好幾十年"},{"start":904.033,"end":931.909,"text":"現在的科技這麼進步嘛所以我們在外部的環境的改變太大了你剛剛這樣一路這樣聽過來喔這個電業法走在錯誤的路徑上離岸風電這個給出了錯誤的標準其實原因就是能源結構就是個錯誤的目標所以你整套再生能源的規劃建立在錯誤的邏輯之上錯上加錯是全民要買單啦我要提醒院長我很佩服委員在整理資料的過程當中但是你的出發點都非常的正確"},{"start":957.291,"end":957.492,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:34:54 - 15:50:53","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155390","gazette":{"lineno":1232,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（15時35分）謝謝主席，行政院長、經濟部長有請。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢，請經濟部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長午安，部長也午安。"],["郭部長智輝：午安。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天大部分委員在質詢的時候都非常關心能源的議題，本席也不例外，特別點一下，稍早郭國文委員在質詢的時候說，臺南的燃氣電廠已經蓋到地方人民受不了，我必須要講，我是桃園選出來的民意代表，桃園也是諸多民營電廠心中最大的肥羊，我要提醒一下兩位，這個不是用所謂的縣市自給率可以解釋的，很有可能會導致區域的對立。我要講的是執政黨的委員都受不了，那我們當然要站在選民這一邊，所以未來民營電廠的興建，本席是礙難同意，但這件事情我們之後會有很多時間好好就教。","這個指出一個大的問題，也就是說我們能源政策顯然是亂七八糟，而且後遺症頻傳，現在正在發生，不管是電廠擴建招致民怨，或者是電價上漲等等，都是能源政策的後遺症。今天我們要把話說清楚，因為人民的知情權是很重要，能源政策會影響產業發展、影響環境品質、影響民生、影響物價，因此政府雖然有這個權力去決定能源政策的走向，但是人民有權利知道走向跟邏輯，而民意代表有這個責任要來釐清真相。剛剛院長回答李彥秀委員質詢的時候，曾經有講能源政策都會合理的延續，他問你蔡政府的政策會不會延續，你說都會延續，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們目前是在這個政策的走向當中繼續更精進，該發展更快的，我們絕對不會怠慢。"],["牛委員煦庭：真的嗎？我再給你一次機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：以前慢下來的，我們希望把它補上來。"],["牛委員煦庭：你真的有延續嗎？我再給你一次機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望延續，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：希望延續，院長，你知不知道電業法最近公告要修正，修正的差異是什麼，你知不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，請告訴我們是哪一個重點。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，要不要救援一下，電業法修正最大的重點是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：就是電價的部分由審議委員會來調整。"],["牛委員煦庭：哇！兩位的回答讓我捏了一把冷汗啊！電業法修正最大的差異不在於電價這些問題、這些枝節，最大的核心問題是改變了2016年修正版本的一個重要決策，叫做台電拆分啊！我這樣提示之後，你們有印象嗎？2016年的電業法要求能源政策的規劃跟走向是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個時候我還沒有進來立法院……"],["卓院長榮泰：那不是最近的電業法……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你現在要修嘛！表示你要修舊的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：除了這一次馬上公告要修正之外，上一次是不是2016年修的？這最大的差異是什麼？兩位不知道，很可怕，沒關係，我來跟兩位說分明。電業法修正最關鍵就是要把第六條拿掉，曾經我們說為了要扶植綠電，對不對？為了要打造一個健康的環境，民進黨過去在野的時候把台電講得一文不值啊！財務不透明、做事不效率，還有藏電等等亂七八糟，必須要改革、必須要整頓，所以搞出一個電業法的版本，這個電業法的版本告訴大家，6年之後台電要分拆，等於走向民營化的路，把發、輸配跟售拆分，對不對？有一個這樣重要的指導綱領在這個地方，對不對？好，2024年馬上公布要進入修正的電業法裡面，這條刪除了，這是重大的政策轉變吧！院長，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：是，對不對？那這樣子還是延續前朝的能源政策嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政策的延續不一定是一成不變的，我們現在面對很多的事情，就是在整個大的能源架構底下，我們從增氣、展綠到多元……都一定是照程序走的，但內容是可以調整的，時程也是可以彈性的。"],["牛委員煦庭：大部分的委員今天都在談配比的問題，我今天就先不談配比的問題，但我談別的，比如說電業法修正就是一個很好的題目，你剛剛講說會延續，又說要修正，這其實是矛盾的概念，我先問電業法修正是誰的決策？是院長您的決策，譬如行政院開會決議的結果，還是郭部長提出來的想法？還是接下來你們還有氣候變遷委員會，對不對？經濟發展及相關的委員會來自總統指示嗎？是誰的決策？誰決定要把這個第六條拿掉？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我們根據台電實際上面做的評估，所以提供給經濟部，經濟部在討論過以後認為分拆成三家公司……"],["牛委員煦庭：合理。"],["郭部長智輝：其實沒有辦法讓三家公司都能夠走上比較好運作的情況，還是保持原來的狀態，才有可能做得更完善。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是台電找經濟部，經濟部基本上同意了，對不對？那你們是不是打臉前朝政府？前朝政府規劃那一套又是什麼呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們必須要與時俱進，我想這個也是委員您一直在指導我們的部分嘛，對不對？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以時空環境不同。"],["郭部長智輝：與時俱進，然後我們提出來請大院所有的委員同意嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：來討論，好，院長，我們每次討論基本上都還蠻理性，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我非常佩服委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為概念上來講，本席一向主張面對問題才是解決問題的第一步。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我現在要正式請教你，這個電業法的修正是不是代表過去的能源政策不合理？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，大的戰略就是展綠、增氣、減煤到非核，這是大的戰略。其中任何一個要隨時事來調整的那種戰術性的問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：戰術性的問題？你認為戰術性的問題必須被允許可以調整，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：主管單位都必須拿出來討論，所以剛剛委員講的這個討論，目前可能都還沒有到院裡面來，在主管部會討論的過程當中，它一定蒐集更多，而到這裡來我們還有政委、還有院會，會做多重的考慮。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，還會有多重考慮就對了，OK！你知不知道這件事情對於產業的影響是什麼？對於政策的影響、對於台電財政的影響是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：它到院裡面來，我們當然要進一步去思考，現在我請部長，看他是否瞭解……"],["牛委員煦庭：你都已經預告修法了，然後院裡面還沒有討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在還沒有，我還沒有看到。"],["牛委員煦庭：還沒有討論，是不是？我就在這個地方提出本席的一些看法，我覺得很奇怪的是，如果當初民進黨在野講能源改革轉型的時候，台電是一個絆腳石，他們說財務不透明、問題一大堆，對不對？關鍵的核心是當政府要大力扶植綠電的時候，你會希望未來是一個相對自由的市場，讓很多人用競爭的方式，避免所有的綠電必須要透過政府用高價躉購的方式來處理，對不對？所以台電才必須要整理、必須要重整，而你現在修法的方向看起來是開倒車，所以不做這件事了，這樣台電就沒有問題了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：躉購就沒有問題了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：那個時候我們認為綠電是必須要充分提供的，後來到現在我們有新的命題，也就是說2020年以後，零碳是全球的共識。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們就要來調整啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：照你這樣講零碳是優勢、趨勢，所以相對來講，綠電未來發展時政府扶助的比例要越來越低，因為大家都搶著做，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：那應該可以照當初的規劃進行啊？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電當初的規劃，我們到2030年的時候，希望能夠滿足所有出口的廠商，它需要綠電的廠商，我們都能夠滿足他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這個是等一下我會跟你討論的題目啦！我先跟你講這幾件事情，第一個，對於產業的影響，本來當初大家綠電業者想要進場，希望共同跟政府一起推動這樣的目標的時候，它有心理預期，也就是過了幾年之後，我的市場會越來越自由，會透過競爭的方式，變成一個正常的市場。可是這6年來用高價躉購的方式先走，這個本席沒有意見，可是你先走之後，這些先占的產業把好處都占光了，然後現在好處占光，他們領走了高額的補助之後，你現在講我們在市場正常化的角度，我們不做了，回歸舊制，請問對於這些新進的業者來講公平嗎？這是對於未來更多的產業投入時，可能造成的衝擊。","再來，我就要講真正的問題是來自於對台電的壓力，我們講自由化就是為了要讓市場去分擔台電的壓力，對不對？當然，你講台電有員工的問題，有分拆、有債務的問題，本席都瞭解，我也沒有要拆台電的臺的意思，但這些都是一個要處理的問題。但你今天不做這件事情，之後可能的後果會是什麼？是我們接下來要繼續擴展綠能的占比，繼續增加投資的時候，你還有哪樣工具啊？接下來就是本席要談的，我們當初講為了讓再生能源先落地，我們要用躉購電價的方式來處理，當然也被大家批評，對不對？當初大家批評躉購電價很高，用了很多納稅錢的時候，你們講這是個過渡，未來台電會自由化等等，公民電廠統統跑出來之後，成本就會下降，因為它會競爭。現在前提條件消失了，你的躉購機制會退場？還是不會退場？院長，這個是比較大的事情，你們有沒有討論過這樣的事？"],["郭部長智輝：躉購現在沒有，是不存在的。"],["牛委員煦庭：怎麼會沒有存在？"],["卓院長榮泰：它現在還是……"],["牛委員煦庭：你的光電……"],["郭部長智輝：新的部分是不存在的。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我知道你最近比較常回答離岸風電的問題，離岸風電是下一段，但是躉購怎麼會不存在呢？你每一年台電都有報告，就是看這張圖表就好。"],["郭部長智輝：您說的是光電的部分？"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，光電啊！從2019年開始，躉購支出是248.8億，2020年353億、2021年426億，2022年588億，到2023年905億，這是不是一個可觀的成長，誰買單？"],["郭部長智輝：躉購的價格是往下走的。"],["牛委員煦庭：哪有往下走？你看折線圖，平均購價從1度4.26元，到2023年的資料是5.20元，這是台電的公開資料，部長你可以再確認一下。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我想請問院長跟部長，2024年馬上就要年底了，今年是上升還是下降？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然台電要再評估他們現在的發電用電跟業者之間的狀況，我們現在的需求是，將來2025年、2026年甚至2027年，我們舊有電廠除役的比較多，需要更多的民間電廠來參與……"],["牛委員煦庭：你需要對不對？那你會不會需要付更高的代價？會，對不對？因為你需要……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要合理，這不能說需要就……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你預期未來總額支出跟平均價格是會上升還是下降？"],["卓院長榮泰：這要再經過計算，我當然希望能夠越穩定越好……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們現在的問題就是以數字的呈現來看，它看不到任何下降的可能，這就回到了大家關心的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：您所看到的是因為用電需求成長，所以才會……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，光電的數量也成長，所以總額會成長，對不對？我的意思是，總額會成長，但是市場不改變，業者是不是繼續依賴政府躉購？台電的財務壓力是不是就越來越大？這就是我講的，關於這些政策，你講要有空間，可是修正之後是會有副作用或是後果的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，未來的綠電銷售是分倉制度，所以需要綠電的，他們可以購買更高的綠電，一般國內的廠商……"],["牛委員煦庭：院長，你現在連今年的數字都要預估，我本來想問你，幾年之後它會開始往下走，進入一個正常的機制？看起來你是回答不出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為最終必須要有一個很公平而且非常公開透明的……"],["牛委員煦庭：的機制，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個交易平臺，這個平臺就是讓大家在這裡用合理的價錢去取得需要的用電。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在的財務負擔是節節上升，我接下來要講的是離岸風電，剛剛部長有講，離岸風電就沒有躉購，對不對？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院長好 院長各位部會首長還有國人同胞大家好首先要恭賀我們這一次的臺灣的國家日順利舉辦 不管我們如何自稱"},{"start":37.797,"end":64.706,"text":"不論來自何時不論來自何方只要我們認同臺灣這塊土地只要我們認同臺灣的民主法治只要我們認同守護臺灣的主權我想我們就是臺灣人這就是我們的國家日那院長從520上任到現在您就任院長大概也是5個多月可不可以跟我們分享一下這5個多月來哪一個在執政的這個願景的實現程度你覺得最滿意的"},{"start":66.496,"end":84.678,"text":"最滿意嗎?對自己來說哪一個施政的主軸你覺得最滿意的?因為我們在100天的時候我們有一個行動101的策略方案那提議面提出了很多那我不敢說最滿意我覺得最貼切需要的就是我們看到這兩次風災之後帶給民眾的不便"},{"start":85.299,"end":86.8,"text":"謝謝院長,所以說對於國土的堅韌度,你認為這是我們未來最重要的願景事宜?"},{"start":114.651,"end":139.031,"text":"那我們請院長還有部長部長經濟部部長來這是直接直接引導到我們的下一個議題就是關於均衡臺灣院長請問什麼是均衡臺灣均衡臺灣在總統的施政理念跟他的競選過程當中一直談到所以第一個階段我們是把"},{"start":140.372,"end":166.486,"text":"臺灣走過一片之後找出了140項重要的基礎工程希望能夠因此而提升臺灣整個的基礎工程的基本設施的建設跟水準再來就是我們希望從北部到桃竹苗到中部到大南方甚至到東部都能夠有一個區域性的發展這過去的政府也經常這麼做那我們把過去的經驗加上現在我們可以發展的科技產業融為在一起分這整個區"},{"start":168.23,"end":168.491,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":188.345,"end":206.136,"text":"所以我們對於中小微企業的產業跟所謂的傳產,我們也希望他能夠進行雙軸的轉型,淨零跟能力的轉型,所以我們編了116億來幫助他們從這個轉型,就是希望他們不要落後於整個國際跟台灣的這個科技發展,能夠逐步的上升。"},{"start":207.057,"end":210.879,"text":"水利署是以每戶工程不超過60萬元為審查標準,只要超過60萬元,水利署基本上就不會去考慮。"},{"start":236.926,"end":254.232,"text":"可是呢在我們嘉義山區很多用戶都是地區偏遠戶密數低也就是說這樣的現行標準來看會超過60萬元的標準所以這些案子會駁回可是部長這不是只有在我們嘉義縣山區其實各個縣市的山區地區都有這樣的偏鄉的問題"},{"start":255.552,"end":273.743,"text":"那如果我們要達成均衡台灣是不是我們可以把無自來水地區的供水改善計畫聽說經濟部已經有提一個計畫給行政院未來要提高到80萬元山區用戶要提高到100萬元請問有這件事情嗎在無自來水地區供水供水地區的改善計畫第5期從114年到118年我們編列了106億那當然希望這個能夠檢討過去執行上"},{"start":281.736,"end":286.64,"text":"報告委員,我們現在這個水利署可以協助輔導還有這個補助的地方,我想還是要地方政府辦理這個簡易自來水系統,那麼來改善這個民眾的用水。"},{"start":302.293,"end":329.771,"text":"譬如說嘉義大埔鄉西雨村5-70的,原來成本156萬一戶,改申請可以申請減水。 水利署正在研提無自來水地區供水改善第5期計畫,也就是114年到118年,加大執行量能持續推動,提升偏鄉以及原住民區健康飲水,並保證供水安全。"},{"start":330.992,"end":354.686,"text":"謝謝部長,我必須要強調現在嘉義縣大埔鄉它就是坐落在我們水庫旁,水庫就是坐落在大埔鄉的鄉境之內,所以有許多民眾是住在水庫旁卻無法使用水庫水,等於說我們這樣的做法其實就是把我們最後一塊的地圖把它補起來,堅韌的台灣還有基礎建設的共享,那不可以說是因為他們在偏遠山區反而得到更少的資源,我們要相反的,"},{"start":354.946,"end":354.986,"text":"麻煩請農業部長備選"},{"start":385.593,"end":386.139,"text":"部長可以請回,謝謝"},{"start":395.157,"end":423.437,"text":"院長去年9月的時候賴總統那時候是賴副總統由南下到我們嘉義的新港鄉那時候有提到說他的願景那是施政的願景他說嘉義縣未來不會只有工業區不會只有科學園區他希望還有增加我們的農業生物科技園區也就是我們不忘本我們嘉義是過去是從農業大縣觀光大縣現在是農工科技大縣但是農業還是我們嘉義縣發展的命脈之一所以"},{"start":424.09,"end":436.246,"text":"院長關於賴總統的政見這個願景我們是不是可以把它共同實現現在我跟部長來討論一下現在農業部的農業科技園區管理中心下面有屏東園區還有桃園園區還有蘭花園區對總共有三個園區"},{"start":440.512,"end":448.982,"text":"那截止至113年8月我看已經有核准115家農企業進駐,那已經總投資金額已經到了172億8千萬台幣,包含農業資產、包含農業設施、天然物、生技研發等6大類的產業都有進駐。"},{"start":461.095,"end":465.781,"text":"這三年的營業額分別是52億、55億到64億,所以這是透過園區把上下游的廠商做整個串聯,這是一個龐大的產業工業鏈,這個我們是非常肯定的。"},{"start":472.694,"end":488.407,"text":"那第一期105年已經完成了現在開發第二期那109年正式開始招商但是我們現在在想請教部長的第三期有沒有可能開始規劃如果規劃有沒有可能往台灣的中間的走廊嘉義這個地帶來去做開發"},{"start":490.578,"end":511.186,"text":"我跟委員報告,就是整個農業科學園區裡面最重要的是把我們農產業的一級產業做一個加值的部分那陳律師你剛才說的在整個的屏東的農業科學園區裡面我們第二期的部分那以過往的經驗我們在第一期招商到滿70%以後我們就會進到第二期的規劃"},{"start":512.446,"end":527.411,"text":"第二期目前實際進駐30%預定要進駐的已經達到40%所以也可以開始去考慮第三期的農業科技園區的座落我想委員也非常這幾年來一直非常積極的推動有關於農業"},{"start":528.571,"end":530.493,"text":"謝謝部長。那院長跟部長還是想請"},{"start":557.649,"end":585.825,"text":"兩位齁,來做整體的這個規劃,把我們不要說新港齁,我們整個嘉義縣他的這個農產,還有他們可能的這個加工,或者是可能發展的這個整個調線齁,來去做整體的規劃之後,還是希望說能夠在一年內能夠提出嘉義園區的規劃方案,是不是可以請院長能夠來協助促成,來去我們共同把賴總統的這個主要的這個願景能夠在嘉義來把它落實?"},{"start":586.633,"end":606.783,"text":"好,謝謝委員,嘉義不僅是農業的大縣,它現在未來會是科技,甚至軍工,工業上的大縣。那從農業的大縣能夠加強農業生技園區的發展,這絕對是一個正確必經的道路。那剛剛我也問過部長,他認為委員所說的這個期限,在一年內我們來把它完成。"},{"start":607.003,"end":617.91,"text":"對,我們一年內我們會啟動一個專案的計畫,去做包括產業的分析,包括可行性,包括它的區位跟規模,這個部分我想我們在一年內應該可以去做相關的規劃。"},{"start":641.476,"end":662.198,"text":"院長我們嘉義縣另外一個重要的一個議題就是我們的查改廠總廠南遷嘉義的這個進度那這個進度今年1月就已經到了行政院請問大概是什麼時候可以核定我稍微補充一下2021年8月前行政院長蘇貞昌他視察這一個的時候就已經把嘉義預定地了然後農業部在2023年已經"},{"start":664.14,"end":665.983,"text":"執行可行性評估及先行規劃作業。"},{"start":682.623,"end":704.853,"text":"要求國發會盡量在最快的數...在4個月內好不好?來完成跨部會的...我跟委員報告一下,因為他4月份...我們4月份的時候有提出改善意見給到了農業部。那農業部後來又送了一份到院,然後10月8號院又回覆意見再次修改。所以,呃...農業部現在正在農業部修改中。"},{"start":705.974,"end":719.509,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們在去年年底的時候完成了可行性的規劃那我們分別在1月份跟3月份就提報了中長層計畫到行政院去爭取相關的一個中長層公共建設的一個經費"},{"start":720.95,"end":743.4,"text":"在整個的一個審查過程中其實委員有非常好的意見我們做了修正那最近的一次修正完了以後我們預計在11月就會再報到行政院去來進行做最後的一個確認那我們期待說透過這樣子幾次的跟委員的溝通能夠讓這個場這個場域的整個功能跟他的一個"},{"start":744.62,"end":744.8,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚"},{"start":772.623,"end":778.969,"text":"院長,你的一個重大的農業政績在家。謝謝,我們現在外賓來訪,我們經常都送阿里山的紅茶。"},{"start":780.369,"end":803.782,"text":"還有高山茶,都是很棒的選擇,對,這個是對做外交來講也是非常有意義的,那是有台灣的意向,台灣的重要的觀光景地,然後還有他所孕育出來的這些特補的茶種,然後這些茶種又可以帶來台灣的意向給這些外賓,所以謝謝,謝謝院長。那最後院長,我們剛剛談到阿里山,阿里山上大部分都是國有林地,"},{"start":804.542,"end":830.395,"text":"那所以山上的民眾最關心的還是國有林地的居住問題那國有林地的既有居住使用房屋的部分本來行政院是有要修正讓肯定續辦清理要點的規定那把國有林地上面的既有的這些建物的清理認定從58527就是58年5月27日改成各地方政府第一次非都市土地辦理使用邊地公告日期加一線是75年11月1日"},{"start":831.255,"end":850.848,"text":"但是各部會都認為各縣市政府第一次非督公告的年度相差太遠,它不利於國有領地的管理,所以行政院現在還沒有拍板這個方案。 最早的屏東縣是64年10月6日,最晚的是75年11月1日。 所以我在這邊是不是可以直接建議行政院全國統一用國產法的82721,82年7月21日當作分界點。"},{"start":854.17,"end":868.725,"text":"那82721之前就已經供民眾居住使用的非營林使用土地可以直接從國有林搬地變為一般的林業用地在變更為國有非公用財產之後就統一交給國產署管理"},{"start":869.326,"end":873.47,"text":"我跟委員報告,我想58527跟82721本身,我想過去幾年委員一直非常關心的。 非常重要的就是說,82721本身是國產署是針對國有非公用的部分去適用。"},{"start":895.95,"end":896.571,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚"},{"start":920.33,"end":920.57,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:02:24 - 15:18:06","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155388","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（15時2分）你好，我們請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再備詢，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長好。院長、各位部會首長，還有國人同胞，大家好。首先要恭賀我們這一次的臺灣國家日順利舉辦，不管我們如何自稱，不論來自何時，不論來自何方，只要我們認同臺灣這塊土地，只要我們認同臺灣的民主法治，只要我們認同守護臺灣的主權，我想我們就是臺灣人，這就是我們的國家日。","院長，從520上任到現在，您就任院長大概也是五個多月，可不可以跟我們分享一下，這五個多月來，哪一個執政願景的實現程度你覺得是最滿意的？"],["卓院長榮泰：最滿意嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：對自己來講、對自己來說，哪一個施政的主軸你覺得最滿意？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們在100天的時候有一個行動101的策略方案，裡面提出了很多，我不敢說最滿意，我覺得最貼切需要的，就是我們看到這兩次風災之後帶給民眾的不便，過去我們雖然在治水上面花了相當的時間，也花了相當的經費，我覺得已經達到起碼、基本上的需求，但是還有一些系統性的問題，我已經在明年度551億的系統性治水當中，希望相關單位都能夠緊密地去設計好未來的需求，我覺得這個不是滿意，而是現在此刻最需要的。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝院長，所以對於國土的堅韌度，你認為這是我們未來最重要的願景之一。我們請院長，還有經濟部部長來……"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部長備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：接下來直接引導到我們的下一個議題，就是關於均衡臺灣。院長，請問什麼是均衡臺灣？"],["卓院長榮泰：均衡臺灣在總統的施政理念及他的競選過程當中一直談到，所以第一個階段我們是把臺灣走過一遍之後，找出了140項重要的基礎工程，希望能夠因此而提升臺灣整個基礎工程基本設施的建設及水準。再來，我們希望從北部到桃竹苗、到中部、到大南方，甚至到東部，都能夠有一個區域性的發展，過去政府也經常這麼做，我們把過去的經驗加上現在發展的科技產業融合在一起，分為幾個區能夠公平地來發展，地方建設有了，發展產業也有了，臺灣才能夠起來。"],["陳委員冠廷：經濟發展的果實要讓全民共享，大概是這樣子，也就是要落實總統說的均衡臺灣，不能夠只有管零星的產業，不能夠只有管半導體產業，不能夠只管在臺灣領先世界的產業而已，還有油、水、電等民生問題都要處理，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，所以對於中小微企業的產業與所謂的傳產，我們也希望能夠進行雙軸的轉型，淨零和能源的轉型，所以我們編列116億幫助他們從事轉型，就是希望他們不要落後於整個國際，臺灣的科技發展能夠逐步的上升。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，不要落後於國際發展。同時，一些偏鄉的民生基礎設施，我們也要把它做得更好，也就是我們不是在經營公司而已，不是只有追尋利潤而已，我們要注重的是基礎設施的健全發展。所以我想要請教，根據沒有自來水地區的供水改善計畫，現在各縣市的無自來水延管申請案，水利署是以每戶工程不超過60萬元為審查標準，只要超過60萬元，水利署基本上就不會去考慮。可是在我們嘉義山區，很多用戶都是地區偏遠、戶密數低，以現行標準來看，會超過60萬元的標準，所以這些案子會駁回。可是部長，這不是只有在我們嘉義縣山區，其實各個縣市的山區地區都有這樣的偏鄉問題，如果我們要達成均衡臺灣，是不是可以把無自來水地區的供水改善計畫──聽說經濟部已經有提一個計畫給行政院，未來要提高到80萬元，山區用戶要提高到100萬元，請問有這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：無自來水供水地區的改善計畫第五期從114年到118年，我們編列了106億，當然希望能夠檢討過去執行上不易的，或是民眾認為更多需求的，我們從經費上來寬列，請部長說明一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在水利署可以協助輔導，還有補助的地方，我想還是要地方政府辦理簡易自來水系統來改善民眾用水，譬如，嘉義大埔鄉西興村5至7鄰原來成本是一戶156萬，可以改申請簡水，水利署正在研提無自來水地區供水改善第五期計畫，也就是114年至118年，我們會加大執行量能、持續推動，以提升偏鄉以及原住民區健康飲水，並保證供水安全。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我必須要強調，現在嘉義縣大埔鄉就坐落在水庫旁，水庫就坐落在大埔鄉的鄉境之內，所以有許多民眾是住在水庫旁，卻無法使用水庫水，等於我們這樣的作法，其實就是把我們最後一塊地圖補起來，堅韌的臺灣，還有基礎建設的共享，不可以因為他們在偏遠山區反而得到更少的資源，相反地，我們要把均衡臺灣做得更好。目前整個計畫每戶用戶的成本大概是87.9萬，有超過60萬，但是符合之前提供給行政院的無自來水地區供水計畫，在100萬以內的狀況，所以還是希望行政院可以全力支持，院長，這個部分可不可以來協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們會支持地方上所需要的。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝，請農業部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請農業部部長備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長，去年9月的時候賴副總統有南下到我們嘉義的新港鄉，那時候他有提到他的施政願景，他說嘉義縣未來不會只有工業區，不會只有科學園區，他希望還有增加農業生物科技園區，也就是我們不忘本，嘉義過去是農業大縣、觀光大縣，現在是農工科技大縣，但是農業還是嘉義縣發展的命脈之一，所以院長，關於賴總統的政見、這個願景，我們是不是可以把它共同實現？我跟部長討論一下，現在農業部的農業科技園區管理中心下面有屏東園區，還有桃園園區跟蘭花……"],["陳部長駿季：還有蘭花園區。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，總共有三個園區。截止至113年8月，我看已經有核准115家農企業進駐，總投資金額已經到了172億8,000萬臺幣，包含農業資材、農業設施、天然物、生技研發等六大類的產業都有進駐。第一期做得不錯，這三年的營業額分別是52億、55億到64億，所以這是透過園區把上、下游的廠商整個做串聯，這是一個龐大的產業工業鏈，這個我們是非常肯定的。第一期105年已經額滿了，現在開發第二期，109年正式開始招商，但是我們現在再想請教部長的，第三期有沒有可能開始規劃？如果規劃，有沒有可能往臺灣中間的走廊──嘉義這個地帶來去開發？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，整個農業科學園區裡面最重要是把農產業的一級產業進行加值的部分，誠如你剛才說的，在整個屏東農業科技園區裡面第二期的部分，以過往的經驗，在第一期招商大概達70%以後，我們就會進到第二期的規劃，現在第二期目前實際進駐達30%，預定要進駐的已經達到40%，所以也可以開始去考慮第三期農業科技園區的坐落。","我想委員這幾年來一直非常積極地推動關於農業科技園區在嘉義地方落腳，這個部分我想跟委員說明，我們要做這樣的一個園區，一定要考慮到周遭產業的特殊性，不要跟其他園區有其區隔性的部分，我想我們會開始去做比較有系統的、產業需求的規劃，來作為後續是不是要成立的一個因應。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。院長跟部長，還是想請兩位來做整體的規劃，不要說新港，而是把整個嘉義縣的農產及他們可能的加工，或者是可能發展的調性，來去做整體的規劃之後，還是希望在一年內能夠提出嘉義園區的規劃方案，是不是可以請院長能夠來協助促成，我們共同把賴總統主要的願景能夠在嘉義落實？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。嘉義不僅是農業大縣，未來會是科技，甚至軍工、工業上的大縣，從農業大縣能夠加強農業生技園區的發展，這絕對是一個正確必經的道路。剛剛我也問過部長，他認為委員所說這個期限在一年內我們來把它完成。"],["陳部長駿季：對！一年內我們會啟動一個專案計畫去做，包括產業分析、包括可行性、包括它的區域跟規模，這個部分我想我們在一年內應該可以去做相關的規劃。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。因為這個包含地方的鄉長、還有地方的議員，都已經在協助找一些可規劃的土地，所以我相信只要有相關的腹案，馬上就可以來執行。","接下來我們請國發會主委，不好意思，部長還是請您繼續。"],["主席：麻煩請國發會主委備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長，我們嘉義縣另外一個重要的議題，就是茶改場總場南遷嘉義的進度，今年1月就已經到了行政院，請問大概是什麼時候可以核定？我稍微補充一下，2021年8月前行政院長蘇貞昌在視察的時候，就已經把嘉義定為預定地了，然後農業部在2023年已經進行了可行性評估跟先行規劃作業，今年1月已經把評估報告陳給行政院，可是從1月到現在已有9個月，我們現在是沒有聽到下文。所以如果從頭算，2021年8月到現在是2024年10月，是不是可以請院長來要求國發會儘量以最快地速度完成跨部會的協調工作，在4個月內好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告一下，因為我們在4月份的時候，有提出改善意見給農業部，農業部後來又送了一份到院，然後10月8號院又回復意見再次修改，所以現在正在農業部修改中。"],["卓院長榮泰：請農業部說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們在去年年底的時候完成了可行性規劃，我們分別在1月份跟3月份，就提報了中長程計畫到行政院去爭取相關的中長程公共建設經費，在整個審查過程中，其實委員有非常好的意見，我們也做了修正；最近一次修正完了以後，我們預計在11月就會再報到行政院進行最後的確認，我們期待透過幾次跟委員的溝通，讓這個場域的整個功能跟產業鏈結能夠達到更實際的效力。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以11月？"],["陳部長駿季：11月，11月我們就會送，我們現在大概整理得差不多了。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長，中南部的茶農都在看這一個案子，不是只有我們嘉義地區，雲嘉南地區、中南部的茶農都在看這個案子，所以我必須要為我們的茶農請命，希望院長能夠促成行政院儘快落實茶改場南遷嘉義，讓這個案子成為院長你在嘉義的一個重大農業政績。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，現在外賓來訪我們經常送阿里山的紅茶。"],["陳委員冠廷：還有高山茶，都是很棒的選擇，這個對做外交來講也是非常有意義的，那是有臺灣的意象、臺灣重要的觀光景地，然後還有它所孕育出來的這些特別茶種，這些茶種又可以帶來臺灣的意象給外賓，謝謝院長。","最後，院長，我們剛剛談到阿里山，阿里山上大部分都是國有林地，所以山上的民眾最關心的還是國有林地的居住問題，關於國有林地的既有居住使用房屋部分，本來行政院有要修正濫墾地續辦清理要點的規定，把國有林地上面的既有建物清理認定從58年5月27日改成各地方政府第一次非都市土地辦理使用編定公告日期，嘉義縣是75年11月1日。但是各部會都認為各縣市政府第一次非都公告的年度相差太遠，不利於國有林地的管理，所以行政院現在還沒有拍板這個方案，最早的屏東縣是64年10月6號、最晚的是75年11月1日，所以我在這邊是不是可以直接建議行政院，全國統一用國產法的82年7月21日當作分界點，那82年7月21日之前就已經供民眾居住使用的非營林使用土地，可以直接從國有林班地變為一般林業用地，再變更為國有非公用財產之後就統一交給國產署管理，再統一出租給民眾，這樣子的話可以解決山區大部分的居住問題，是不是可以請行政院來考量一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：適用性的問題、適法性的問題還是請部長來答復，他有一些想法。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，關於58年5月27日跟82年7月21日的問題，過去幾年委員一直非常關心，非常重要的是，82年7月21日本身是國產署針對國有非公用的部分去適用，林務局的保安林地是國有公用的部分，所以它不能直接適用！但是後來我們折衝了一個，就是用最近的航拍相關規定，就像您說的。我跟委員報告，有兩個方法可以解這個問題，因為它的確已經變成一個聚落了，如果國土計畫實施以後，我們用鄉規就可以直接處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我昨天出現質詢的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就直接可以處理，但是國土計畫還沒有實施之前，還有一條路，我們在奮起湖也是利用這樣的方式，如果它規劃成觀光發展區的時候，我們農業部也樂觀其成能夠把它解編。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長、謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請農業部繼續努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第10號陳超明委員質詢。"],["陳委員超明：院長好，首先有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員超明：卓院長好。我第一個質詢的問題就是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，我們的速度要加快，好不好？今年國發會在2月份提出桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，這期間我安排了經濟委員會考察苗栗2次，我個人召開協調會8次，很高興終於在9月30號經過行政院正式核定，苗栗縣有三個地方納入大矽谷計畫，一個是竹南科學園區第二期擴編、一個是頭份科學園區、一個是後龍的產業園區，所以我在此表達非常感謝之意。因為賴總統在總統競選期間提出大矽谷計畫，一直看不到那個影子，大家放心不下來，我每天被人家問，謝謝你，真是幫了忙……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，應該要往這個方向走。"],["陳委員超明：我也跟院長報告，投資在苗栗縣絕對是最好的選擇。苗栗縣有個特色──新竹市的科學園區；新竹縣、新竹市都緊鄰著苗栗縣；還鄰接著臺中科學園區，所以在這個地方把它整個補起來，就是非常完整，能串聯我們西部的科技走廊。在這裡感謝院長，安定了人心，不然我電話一直接，被問說是真的還是假的？","這次也表現了我們中央與地方團結合作、共圓夢想，讓苗栗縣成為西部科技走廊新興的一個都市！在這裡我們苗栗縣鍾東錦縣長特別叫我感謝賴總統、卓院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當。"],["陳委員超明：還有國發會，還有經濟部大家全力的支持，把這個核定下來，讓它能大展身手，讓我們苗栗縣的願景能前程似錦，這一點要再靠你們繼續給我們支持跟幫忙，因為這裡面一定有很多困難的問題，只要中央幫我們協助解決的話，我相信很快苗栗人的夢想就會完成，這點拜託一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，總統的政見一定是最重要的國家施政方向，但是不可能一夜實現，我們一定會按部就班、循序進行……"],["陳委員超明：對，接下來就靠苗栗縣去打拚……"],["卓院長榮泰：這當中國發會扮演非常重要的角色，非常非常的辛苦……"],["陳委員超明：我曉得，所以我現在巴結他，我現在在委員會都不敢亂修理他，好不好？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：現在請經濟部長，國發會可以下去了。"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部長備詢。"],["陳委員超明：卓院長，我第二個主題就是苗栗天花湖水庫的興建與否，你們中央要很清楚的表態，我們地方才敢來做，經濟部在民國83年開始規劃天花湖水庫，在102年通過環評，但是後續因為地方的溝通，那時民運團體起來，到處都在反對，也是現在的執政黨當初很多的作為，我自已經歷過這個情形，我們一清二楚。","現在桃竹苗大矽谷計畫已經核定，未來高科技進駐到苗栗或是到新竹的時候，用水量勢必增加很多，我們五個水庫給臺中跟新竹科學園區使用，以前的水都是靠苗栗供應，現在我們又有產業基地，我們互相聯絡、互相幫忙，但是天花湖水庫我覺得勢必要建，現在加上我們極端的氣候，有水要思無水的痛苦，現在下雨量很多，大家都不擔心，但是到時極端氣候變遷、乾旱的氣候，我們要未雨綢繆，尤其前兩年缺水的時候，在竹南、頭份、在苗栗縣大概有50%的人口缺水、缺電，害我們每天追得要死。","我現在只要這樣，苗栗縣政府有準備，會來支持天花湖水庫，作為大矽谷計畫的備用水源，你們到底有沒有要做？你們每天都說缺水庫，沒有人反對，現在苗栗縣第一個表態支持水庫的興建，你們也要表態一下，部長知道這件事吧？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一件事情我不清楚。"],["陳委員超明：你不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["陳委員超明：我們在等看你們會不會來問，我們主動跟你們說，好像我們在跟你們討一樣，以後要積極一點，情報要靈活一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員超明：不然我跟你講，建立一個水庫，你們現在為了科學園區用電、用水，你們海邊的淡水計畫花了多少錢，建一個水庫已經足夠了，要去想一下啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員……"],["陳委員超明：從企業界出來，一定要了解這些問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，這個我們會納入優先考慮。"],["陳委員超明：好，你有時間來我們苗栗……"],["卓院長榮泰：我再跟委員報告，這個地區當然需要工業區，將來的園區都需要用水，但天花湖這個場址，原來我們過去幾年顧慮的是認為它要不要有更進一步的考慮，它有沒有斷層帶，造成未來安全上的疑慮，現在進一步發現這個斷層的問題好像是不存在的，但是要確定，如果這個不存在，安全上是可控的，我們就把它弄比較高的安全係數標準來看，是不是可以適合來做水庫，請經濟部再做詳細說明。"],["郭部長智輝：我馬上責成水利署下去做評估。"],["陳委員超明：好，因為以前都是地方反對的，你們都不敢做，現在地方表態說要全力來建了……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們重視安全上的問題，這個要先做。"],["陳委員超明：你們應該要下去鼓勵支持，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：經濟部請回座。我現在要討論國土計畫，你們說要上路，我自己是農民出身的，苗栗縣是農業縣，我現在跟院長說，農地無奈，農民也三聲無奈，國土計畫法在明年（114年）4月要生效，我跟院長說，你們真的要很慎重考慮，因為國土計畫法在國民黨執政的時代通過，再來換民進黨執政，在這八年裡面，你們也沒有去地方溝通協調，大家搞得亂七八糟。雖然國民黨過了，這表示所有的責任是在你們執政期間，你們漠視那些基層跟農會，幾乎沒人理，我覺得這個問題很重要，但是中央好像馬馬虎虎，地方政府就想說這裡面要劃什麼土地起來也怕遭遇到民怨及民眾反對。","我現在跟院長說，不要怪地方政府，我還是要說一些事情，其實是中央的行政責任，你們現在這結束了，明年要到期，要表示你們的power，你們全力推動，這個不對，我是主張要延緩。我現在要跟你說的是什麼？苗栗山多、平原少、水庫多，苗栗縣的國土保育區面積你們劃了26%，保育區只能種樹，無法耕種；農業發展區占22%，現在所有鄉親深怕的就是國土保育區第一類及農業發展地區第一類使用受到限制，這讓大家擔心。","我講這個問題很重要，我們要學屏東的作法，屏東怎麼做你知道嗎？把公有地──就是台糖的土地化為農一，農一就是永遠要耕種，不得翻身，它是這樣劃的；它把本來的優良農地改為農二；把都市計畫內的農業用地改為城鄉發展區。如果屏東通過，苗栗縣就照這樣劃，我絕對會請縣長支持這樣通過。現在百姓很怕，所以國土計畫真的要好好考慮，如果能延兩年，好好地溝通協調，讓地方劃出他們未來要發展最重要的地方。部長，我上次本來要問你，今天總質詢的時間很短，你不要說農民有農業的精神，大家都要看土地能不能漲，人都不會改變，人性不會改變，不要想得很偉大，你們都曉得，都市裡面的農業區你們都一直在改變，變成商業區，用這方式下去做……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，有關於農業發展區到底怎麼劃，我想絕對不是只有地方政府劃、中央審，一定是中央跟地方政府一起合作，所以我想後續我們會去加強溝通，然後……"],["陳委員超明：這跟農業部比較沒關係，是內政部……"],["陳部長駿季：適合的這些地……"],["陳委員超明：但你也要提出你的看法……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會跟縣政府一起來討論，怎麼樣劃是最有利的。第二點，剛剛委員說的國保區部分，其實農業部也主動，有一些國保區其實不適合劃在國保的，可以劃在農業發展區的，我們也主動跟內政部請求把它劃出來，這個部分我想一起努力。"],["陳委員超明：我了解，院長，你有什麼看法？我真的很誠懇向你建議把它延後，延兩年、三年不晚，好好地規劃，很多農民都是支持你們的，你們這樣劃，我跟你說，對你們來說很危險，我是很真誠的跟你談這問題，你的看法如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員提醒，我個人也一直覺得國土計畫法的內容是不是沒有辦法向農民說得很清楚，第二個是過去幾年我們在溝通的過程當中，是不是時間上沒有盡到該有的效率，目前大家在還沒有說明很清楚的情況底下，但是有法律時間上的要求，所以我是要求農業部跟內政部還是積極去溝通，但溝通的成效到底如何，我現在還在觀察中。"],["陳委員超明：還有一點，糧食是國安問題，部長、院長，我這個土地是荒廢在那也沒有種植，我常常聽那些學者專家說什麼糧食國安的問題，你自己去看，現在產量提高了，你要有各種改變的方式，因為總質詢的關係，我把幾個重點講完，改天我會跟農業部請教，你再轉告卓院長，我是鄉下出身的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：再來，我對苗栗一直想要做的事情，就是「指定苗栗為低丘緩坡示範區，打造臺灣輕井澤」，我們苗栗這個地方低丘緩坡很漂亮，而且每一個地方交通非常的便利，我現在跟你們說一個現實的問題在哪裡，苗栗1甲3,000坪的農地大概是1,500萬到2,000萬，你說可不可憐？說不定買你們臺北市的豪宅，連1間廁所也買不起；買新北市的房子，10坪就買不起，我100坪的土地換不到10坪，你覺得這樣有道理嗎？部長，你好好想我講的這幾個問題。所以在都市裡面，農地都重劃變成建地，我們苗栗的農地、低丘緩坡只能做農，為什麼就要受到限制？關於這個我常有個觀念，苗栗縣的交通很方便，到臺北45分鐘，到高雄70分鐘，到臺中20分鐘，所以苗栗要蓋農舍要符合農舍的興建規定，這裡面有一點很困擾的就是「農舍用地應矩形配置於農地之地界線側及臨接道路，不得影響農業經營用地的完整性。但屬特殊地形者，不在此限。」特殊地形者的部分，我在經濟委員會跟你們農業部討論好幾次了，你們說：「不會啦！好啦！」但你要知道，平地的農地跟我手上的山坡地是不一樣的，你用這種條件設限，地方的公務人員沒人敢去解釋特殊的地形，怕變成圖利，所以我們苗栗縣85%的山坡地都面臨嚴苛的審核，沒辦法通過。我覺得這點要因地制宜，不能說平地的農舍跟我們山坡地的農舍，你們要求的條件都一樣，平地有路，山坡地要自己開。","現在山坡地的部分，部長、院長要知道，山坡地缺水，農作物收成也缺工，農產作物你們又給我們限制，為什麼種水稻、種水果才能增加收入？你怎麼不去改種高經濟價值的樹木，檜木、牛樟、肖楠或是沉香木，還有一些有經濟價值的？你不要限制我一定要種西瓜、要種花生、要種水稻才可以，有時候我真的想不通，你們都不會變通，所以我在這裡，希望可以的話，低丘緩坡以苗栗縣為示範區，好好地考慮那個地方的地形狀況再來做，這樣我們苗栗縣才會發展，那些土地才會活化起來，不然都卡在那，我帶你們去看，整座山上都是空的。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員簡單報告，類似日本輕井澤的這個部分，其實在我們國土計畫農四部分的一個鄉村聚落規劃裡面，就可以把它規劃下去，這樣後續在推動的時候，其實有非常多的資源是可以投入的。"],["陳委員超明：你現在這樣說的意思就是我們山坡地有一些可以改成城鄉發展區嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個會根據你的地形地貌，我剛才說它以農業發展區的農四部分……"],["陳委員超明：沒有，我的意思是你劃定一個特區，因為低丘緩坡很漂亮，比日本的輕井澤還要漂亮。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，再請部長書面說明，好不好？"],["陳委員超明：你去走看看，以前蓋的……你退休的時候就會喜歡苗栗縣了，愛上那個地方。"],["主席：謝謝苗栗的陳超明委員。"],["陳委員超明：好，謝謝。"],["委員陳超明書面補充資料："],["主席：謝謝卓院長及相關首長的備詢。","跟院會報告，現在在我們議場2樓旁聽席的是北一女中的學生，專門來這裡觀摩我們立法院，歡迎大家！未來國家的棟梁，歡迎你們！","接下來我們請登記第11號牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓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院長這個剛剛的午餐吃得怎麼樣 中午有沒有吃飽根據"},{"start":36.772,"end":51.641,"text":"科總召、副總召跟黃國昌總召他們都好像認為這個是第一次由韓院長跟我兩位一起跟各黨團的三長一起共餐共同討論事情我們的氣氛"},{"start":52.682,"end":79.301,"text":"是相當的不錯的,但是時間還是有限,因為我要趕著回來陪各位委員打巡,所以時間是有限的。其實我覺得啦,如果有韓院長在的話,那個氣氛肯定都是會非常好啦。是不是您覺得時間上有一點短,因為要趕回來備巡,心裡總是有壓力,是不是這樣?當然這個午餐的時間就是這個樣子。剛剛我看了這個午餐結束之後,馬上媒體就有一些轉述,有一些報導。"},{"start":81.188,"end":98.466,"text":"包括黃國昌委員說,非常遺憾這一頓飯破局,行政院沒有提出任何的解方。傅坤祺委員說,非常遺憾,行政院不尊重立法院,所以沒提出任何的解方。但是您說,午餐氣氛和樂。"},{"start":99.526,"end":110.876,"text":"三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分為處理臨"},{"start":117.421,"end":133.294,"text":"在溝通進一步,不管是想和解也好,或者是大家進一步溝通的希望可是呢,國民黨跟民眾黨的總召說遺憾,他們兩個看不到希望。 院長您個人是這樣覺得嗎?"},{"start":134.827,"end":160.507,"text":"我不僅快樂要看到希望,我更希望我跟韓院長努力讓國人快樂,讓國人都看得到希望。那兩面之間就是要這樣互動,在一次的參敘當中不可能把細節問題像菜單一樣列出來這樣談。因為這個是一個參敘,它不是一個正式的協商嘛,所以你不可能在裡面去談到說你要怎麼樣做,你要怎麼樣協商,到時候會不會又有人出來咆嘯說這是密室,因為沒有公開直播。"},{"start":161.96,"end":177.249,"text":"所以未來我希望就是能夠在這樣的氣氛底下,把一些該處理的事情在大院裡面草引進行協商,盡快的集中協商。那行政會會認為我們會很樂意在這個協商過程中扮演行政院該有的角色。"},{"start":177.625,"end":205.182,"text":"韓院長我可不可以白話一點解釋你們中午的午餐就是說有一個推動的大方向大家有一個這樣的共識未來這個總預算該怎麼復違該怎麼樣去做一些調整大家內心有一個想法但是細節的部分真正落實的部分是不是還要留待韓院長來召集協商大家正式坐下來在協商的時候談"},{"start":206.002,"end":222.243,"text":"是不是我如果白話去解釋你們中午的午餐是不是可以這樣子在屬於我可以答覆的50%我認為完全正確但是我也認為不宜這個事情就丟給還院長也不宜這個樣子這需要大家共同來談所以行政院願意扮演"},{"start":223.75,"end":247.282,"text":"更重要更主要的角色來談這個事 但是談要由朝野黨團來談我覺得在立法院裡頭還是應該要保持一個快樂的心啦 如果每天在這裡像怒目金剛一樣每天在這裡一直不斷的咆哮那吃個快樂的飯你們大家都覺得這一餐飯吃得很快樂 可是有人就說我不吃午餐我都是不吃午餐的 那不知道去幹嘛呢 不在現場你們知道那麼多"},{"start":249.706,"end":268.059,"text":"這個也是不能在這裡講的公開秘密。 剛剛午餐的部分我就問到這裡。我接下來問這個大概是比較嚴肅的議題。 院長你大概知道我們高雄才剛剛經歷了這個山陀而颱風的肆虐。 給您看一下山陀而之後"},{"start":269.912,"end":293.74,"text":"的高雄的狀況十七疾風對高雄帶來重大的損失這個是在大寮的河堤路上您看到所有的電線桿斷裂樹全部倒塌那台電的工程工程人員本來說從台中以南的工程人員全部調到高雄來後來到了第二天發現"},{"start":295.04,"end":296.701,"text":"這件事情讓我們開始嚴正的思考兩個部分"},{"start":323.288,"end":347.298,"text":"一個是電感地下化到底要不要進行這個還是讓您看一下三天之後臺電的員工可以把剛剛殘破不堪的道路把它整成這樣我真的太佩服臺電的同仁的工作效率我必須再講一次我也希望部長能夠對於我們臺電的同仁多加慰勉"},{"start":349.566,"end":375.114,"text":"來 院長讓您看一下平和公路全線地下化這個是在蘇貞昌當院長的時候去做的原因就是要大幅降低遇到風災的時候大規模的停電那有沒有達成效果呢我讓您看一下這是這一次山陀而颱風在高雄市區造成了超過10萬戶以上的停電但是您可以看到"},{"start":375.894,"end":402.464,"text":"平和公路因為地下化了之後平和公路只有零星的停電事故並沒有大規模的停電所以院長想跟您進一步討論其實行政院包括臺電有編列相關的預算這個是在2017年到2019年我們有這個所謂強化配電線路防災任性計劃當時投入了70億元"},{"start":406.65,"end":412.16,"text":"做了這些事情總共大概做了有463.64公里沒有實際大概做了將近500公里的長度"},{"start":417.574,"end":431.803,"text":"明年度我們的預算,其實這是持續性的計畫,所以還是有裂案。 我不知道經濟部在這個配電線路的地下化工程裡頭,編列了多少預算?"},{"start":431.803,"end":433.804,"text":"你們打算怎麼做?"},{"start":433.804,"end":443.971,"text":"這一次在沿海地區受創嚴重,有沒有思考過把沿海地區的這一些電線桿全部地下化?"},{"start":444.807,"end":444.827,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":461.841,"end":485.968,"text":"陳其邁市長在風災之後跟我通了至少6次以上的電話,充分告訴我路數、公園裡面的大樹、青島的狀況,而且壓到電線桿,讓復電相當的困難,所以我們積極去處理。 再來你看平鵝公路,我們這次上禮拜六到屏東去的時候,確實經過那段路,鄭德城路委員所說的,它並不會造成"},{"start":486.288,"end":488.469,"text":"這個您剛才所指導的這個臺電公司我想我們會通盤的考量那這個在地質地理上面如果在技術上可行的話我們會去做"},{"start":515.094,"end":515.134,"text":"主席"},{"start":535.202,"end":563.409,"text":"反而更慘,所以我們會衡量技術上面可以處理的方式。我覺得技術上,因為你們現在一直在講所謂的韌性電網這件事情,如果韌性電網這個事情能夠達成的話,我覺得運用現在的這些科技的技術,應該去好好的思考。另外第二個呢,我剛剛還沒講完,就是說電感如果不能地下化,旁邊種植的行道數就很重要了。"},{"start":564.51,"end":566.114,"text":"院長您同意我的看法嗎?"},{"start":566.114,"end":570.266,"text":"剛剛您看到的那些照片,可不可以再把我調回去剛剛的那些照片?"},{"start":572.936,"end":598.759,"text":"這一排的路數,種這個是什麼?黑板樹啦!黑板樹很怕,只要風來,一吹它就倒了。黑板樹,小葉蘭仁,是在南部地區種最多的行道樹。它最容易折斷,最容易勾斷電線,甚至折斷電線桿。所以這個在河堤道路上面,這個是屬於經濟部水利署的河川道路,這個大概幾千棵的黑板樹。"},{"start":599.795,"end":614.13,"text":"我們期待是不是經濟部能夠跟農業部來做合作,農業部有這個臨時所,他們有去研究哪一些樹種是比較適合當行道樹的,你們可不可以跟臨時所來做合作,把這樣的樹種全部換掉,"},{"start":614.991,"end":615.751,"text":"部長您同意我的看法嗎?"},{"start":630.981,"end":653.686,"text":"是,我們會完全依照這個委員的這個指示,我們會馬上跟這個農業部來協商,那用農業部他們很專業,他們可以知道哪一些樹可以對這個環境會比較好,甚至於我們在找說哪一些樹對二氧化碳的這個吸收會比較大,來提供這個環境,優質的環境,這個我們馬上會進行的。"},{"start":656.147,"end":677.639,"text":"我們在農業部裡頭培養了很多的林業博士我跟委員報告就是說以平和公路為例就是在整個在電纜地下挖的同時我們就組成了一個團隊然後包括數種的選擇在不同地區的數種的選擇然後適合這種不同地形跟地貌的部分所以後續"},{"start":678.419,"end":696.41,"text":"我們在處理這個部分,我想我們也會跟經濟部合作,會組成一個數種選擇,甚至包括種植的輔導,我們都會來處理。好,我想這個部分,其實不單只是因為高雄這一次受到十七疾風,所以受創慘重,院長如果您這幾天有空到高雄來看一看的話,"},{"start":697.29,"end":697.41,"text":"議員長您看過這個嗎?"},{"start":726.072,"end":745.363,"text":"光電隧道在高速公路上面是2022年蘇貞昌當院長的時候我曾經在這裡質詢過蘇院長告訴我說這是一個可以思考的路徑因為國外開始在做這一類的研究了好了到了2023年奇怪都是10月份"},{"start":746.949,"end":774.98,"text":"陳建仁當院長的時候我又再提了一次當時在濃水圳上面做光電板我認為這是錯誤的政策我覺得可以去思考比如說用高速公路的隔音牆把它做成一個光電隧道那行政院也認為應該可以研究可是我問了很多次交通部抵死不從能源署認為這是一個可以研究的方向能源署認為可以做交通部抵死不從"},{"start":776.411,"end":791.485,"text":"院長我再讓您看這是在今年的4月18號在瑞士瑞士他們開始在計畫在公路上面建置這樣的一個太陽能板的光電隧道這是4月份的"},{"start":792.56,"end":809.159,"text":"接下來讓您看這個是最新的,2024年8月份,歐洲的許多國家,包括這個Tax Explorer的報導,歐洲的許多國家開始在研究做光電隧道的可行性。"},{"start":809.779,"end":829.186,"text":"光電隧道的可行性就會比如說我們不用在農地上面建置太陽能光電板不用在水準上面建置太陽能光電板運用現有的公路建置這樣的一個太陽能隧道它可以達到綠電減碳各式各樣的這樣的一個模式"},{"start":830.393,"end":856.051,"text":"部長我看您一直點頭您同意我的看法基本上這個方向是可以去考慮的但是這個牽扯到交通的安全行人的安全這個所有的這個這個不是你這個講法跟交通不一樣我當然知道這個牽扯到交通的安全行人的安全包括裝置的安全交通部一直跟我說那個太陽能板只要遇到大風遇到什麼它就會飛走"},{"start":860.93,"end":882.245,"text":"有一個很大的問題,包括成本建構一個這樣子的環境當然是非常的理想但是以目前的成本來考量他可能發出來的電沒有辦法抵擋我們的投資所以基於這個實驗、科學來看是沒有問題"},{"start":883.106,"end":908.684,"text":"但是如果按企業經營啊,臺電來經營這個的話,可能就是不符成本。 這個當然不可能是臺電去經營啊,但是我覺得是不是政府能夠研究,可以開始做一些可行性評估。 跟委員報告,高峰局啊,他已經正式在說他會收集像類似這樣的國外的經驗,那收集國外經驗之前,他已經在北中南12個服務區招標完成,先在服務區做起。"},{"start":909.204,"end":909.424,"text":"好,謝謝邱議瑩"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:46:26 - 15:02:02","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155387","gazette":{"lineno":985,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（14時46分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長好。院長，剛剛的午餐吃得怎麼樣，中午有沒有吃飽？"],["卓院長榮泰：根據柯總召、傅總召跟黃國昌總召，他們都好像認為這個是第一次由韓院長跟我兩位跟各黨團的三長一起共餐、共同討論事情，我們的氣氛是相當不錯的。"],["邱委員議瑩：氣氛不錯？好。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是時間還是有限，因為我要趕著回來陪各位委員答詢，所以時間是有限。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實我覺得如果有韓院長在的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：氣氛就很好。"],["邱委員議瑩：那個氣氛肯定都是會非常好啦，是不是您覺得時間上有一點短，因為要趕回來備詢，心裡總是有壓力，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然這個午餐的時間就是這樣子。"],["邱委員議瑩：剛剛我看了這個午餐結束之後，馬上媒體就有一些轉述、有一些報導，包括黃國昌委員說非常遺憾，這一頓飯破局，行政院沒有提出任何的解方。傅崐萁委員說非常遺憾，行政院不尊重立法院，所以沒提出任何的解方。但是您說午餐氣氛和樂、氣氛非常地好，您剛剛講到了兩句話，我覺得非常地有趣，你說快樂的人會看到希望，憂慮的人會看到遺憾，所以你是一個快樂的人，你看到了這一頓飯之後，行政、立法之間有了進一步再溝通，進一步不管是講和解也好或者是大家進一步溝通的希望，可是國民跟民眾黨的總召說遺憾，他們兩個看不到希望，院長，您個人是這樣覺得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不僅快樂，要看到希望，我更希望我跟韓院長努力讓國人快樂，讓國人都看得到希望。那兩院之間就是要這樣互動，在一次的餐敘當中不可能把細節、問題像菜單一樣列出來這樣談。"],["邱委員議瑩：因為這個是一個餐敘，它不是一個正式的協商……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，未來可以啟動。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你不可能在裡面去談到說你要怎麼樣做，你要怎麼樣協商。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：到時候會不會又有人出來咆哮說這是密室，因為沒有公開直播？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以未來我希望就是能夠在這樣的氣氛底下，把一些該處理的事情在大院裡面朝野進行協商，儘快啟動協商。行政院會認為，我們會很樂意在這個協商過程中扮演行政院該有的角色。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，我可不可以白話一點解釋你們中午的午餐？就是說有一個推動的大方向，大家有一個這樣的共識，未來這個總預算該怎麼付委、該怎麼樣去做一些調整，大家內心有一個想法，但是細節的部分、真正落實的部分，是不是還要留待韓院長來召集協商，大家正式坐下來在協商的時候談？是不是？我如果白話去解釋你們中午的午餐，是不是可以這樣子……"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點答復，在屬於我可以答復的百分之五十，我認為完全正確，但是我也認為不宜把這個事情就丟給韓院長處理……"],["邱委員議瑩：還是要給院長來……"],["卓院長榮泰：也不宜這個樣子，這需要大家共同來談，所以行政院願意扮演更重要、更主要的角色來談這個事情……"],["邱委員議瑩：其實我覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是談要由朝野黨團來談。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得在立法院裡頭還是應該保持快樂的心，如果每天在這裡像怒目金剛一樣，一直不斷地咆哮，那吃個快樂的飯，你們大家都覺得這一餐飯吃得很快樂，可是就有人說我不吃午餐、我都是不吃午餐的，那真不知道去幹嘛呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員不在現場，怎麼知道那麼多！"],["邱委員議瑩：欸！這個……這個也是不能在這裡講的公開秘密。好，院長，剛剛午餐的部分我就問到這裡，接下來我要問的是比較嚴肅的議題。","院長應該知道我們高雄才剛剛經歷山陀兒颱風的肆虐，給你看一下山陀兒之後高雄的狀況，17級風對高雄帶來重大損失，這個是在大寮的河堤路上，你看所有的電線桿斷裂，樹全部倒塌，台電本來說臺中以南的工程人員全部調到高雄來，後來到了第二天發現沒辦法，所以是全臺灣都調到高雄來，在此，我必須再一次感謝所有台電上上下下的員工，你可以看到這個電線桿斷成這樣，所以包括大發工業區、和發產業園區、整個大寮、林園地區，經歷了大概三天以上的停電，對居民來講真是苦不堪言！這件事情讓我們開始嚴正思考兩個部分，一個是電桿地下化到底要不要進行？我還是讓你看一下啦！三天之後，台電的員工可以把剛剛殘破不堪的道路整成這樣，我真的太佩服台電同仁的工作效率，我必須再講一次，也希望部長對於台電同仁能夠多加慰勉。","來！院長讓你看一下，屏鵝公路全線地下化，這個是蘇貞昌當院長的時候做的，原因就是要大幅降低遇到風災時的大規模停電，有沒有達成效果呢？這一次山陀兒颱風在高雄市區造成了超過10萬戶以上的停電，但是你可以看到屏鵝公路因為地下化之後，只有零星的停電事故，並沒有大規模停電，所以想跟院長進一步討論這個問題。其實行政院包括台電都有編列相關預算，2017年到2019年我們有所謂的強化配電線路防災韌性計畫，當時投入70億元做這些事情，總共做了463.64公里，實際大概做了將近500公里的長度，這是持續性的計畫，所以明年度應該還有列案，我不知道經濟部在配電線路地下化工程裡編列了多少預算，又打算怎麼做？但這一次沿海地區受創嚴重，有沒有思考過把沿海地區的這一些電線桿全部地下化？"],["卓院長榮泰：我先跟委員報告，等一下再請郭部長回應。我跟委員一樣，非常感謝台電員工的辛苦，更感謝高雄市民在施工當中送給他們很多飲料、慰問他們，我也會用另外的時間來感謝台電。另外，高雄陳其邁市長在風災之後跟我通了至少6次以上的電話，充分告訴我路樹、公園裡大樹傾倒的狀況，表示因壓到電線桿，讓復電相當的困難，所以我們才積極去處理。","再來你說到屏鵝公路，上禮拜六我們到屏東的時候，確實有經過那段路，正如委員所說的，它並沒有造成很大的災害……"],["邱委員議瑩：沒有大幅停電，只有零星少數的……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這給我們一個很好的經驗，或許未來可以往這個方向走，讓現在還沒有地下化的這些電纜能夠更有韌性。有關委員剛剛提到的這部分計畫，我請郭部長來說明。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你剛才所指導的台電公司部分，我們會通盤考量，如果在技術上可行的話，我們會優先去做，但是在海邊的部分，我有去看，那個有比較大的問題，就是海邊的部分我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：是怕會淹水嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：會淹水，地下電纜如果入水的話，沒有辦法修理反而更慘，所以我們會衡量技術上面可以處理的方式。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得在技術上，因為你們現在一直在講所謂的韌性電網這件事情，如果韌性電網這個事情能夠達成的話，我覺得運用現在這些科技的技術，應該去好好的思考。","另外第二個我剛剛還沒講完，就是電纜如果不能地下化，旁邊種植的行道樹就很重要。院長，您同意我的看法嗎？剛剛您看到的那些照片，這一排路樹種的是什麼？是黑板樹啦！黑板樹很空心，只要風一來，一吹它就倒了。黑板樹、小葉欖仁是在南部地區種最多的行道樹，它最容易折斷，最容易勾斷電線，甚至折斷電線桿。在河堤道路上面這個是屬於經濟部水利署的河川道路……"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["邱委員議瑩：這個大概幾千棵的黑板樹，我們期待經濟部是不是能夠跟農業部合作，農業部有林試所，他們有去研究哪一些樹種是比較適合當行道樹的，你們可不可以跟林試所合作，把這樣的樹種全部換掉？在你還不能立刻做地下化之前，把行道樹先做改變，不要讓這一些樹枝、樹幹成為停電的元兇，造成大家非常不便，甚至是造成大家搶修困難的元兇。部長，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會完全依照委員的指示，我們會馬上跟農業部協商，因為農業部他們很專業，他們知道哪一些樹對環境會比較好，甚至於我們在找哪一些樹對二氧化碳的吸收會比較大，來提供優質環境……"],["邱委員議瑩：對，這個其實是一舉數得啦！"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們馬上會進行。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們在農業部裡頭培養了很多的林業博士啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，以屏鵝公路為例，在整個電纜地下化的同時，我們就組成了一個團隊，包括在不同地區樹種的選擇、適合不同地形地貌的部分等等，後續我們在處理這個部分，我想我們也會跟經濟部合作，會組成一個團隊，對於樹種選擇，甚至於包括種植的輔導，我們都會來處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我想這個部分其實不單只是……因為高雄這一次遭受17級風，所以受創慘重，院長，如果您這幾天有空到高雄來看一看的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：會，我會去。"],["邱委員議瑩：你就知道高雄到現在很多的大馬路兩旁還是有很多還沒清完的路樹，當然我們也很感謝國軍，國軍這次大概調派了超過兩千人力來協助高雄做樹木的清運。部長，您剛剛講到包括減碳等等的問題，我接下來要問的問題其實已經問很多次了，院長您看過這個嗎？光電隧道。"],["卓院長榮泰：在高速公路上面……"],["邱委員議瑩：是，2022年蘇貞昌當院長的時候，我曾經在這裡質詢過，蘇院長告訴我這是一個可以思考的路徑，因為國外開始在做這一類的研究了。到了2023年10月份陳建仁當院長的時候，我又再提了一次，當時在農水圳上面做光電板，我認為這是錯誤的政策，我覺得可以去思考，比如說用高速公路的隔音牆，把它做成一個光電隧道，行政院也認為應該可以研究，可是我問了很多次，交通部卻抵死不從，能源署認為這是一個可以研究的方向，能源署認為可以做，交通部卻抵死不從。院長我再讓您看，這是在今年4月18號在瑞士，他們開始計畫在公路上面建置這樣的太陽能板光電隧道。接下來讓您看這是最新的，2024年8月份歐洲的許多國家，包括TECH XPLORE的報導，歐洲許多國家開始在研究做光電隧道的可行性，比如我們不用在農地上面建置太陽能光電板，不用在水圳上面建置太陽能光電板，運用現有的公路建置這樣的一個太陽能隧道，就可以達到綠電、減碳、各式各樣的模式。部長，我看您一直點頭，您同意我的看法？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上這個方向是可以去考慮的，但是牽扯到交通的安全、行人的安全，這個不是……"],["邱委員議瑩：你這個講法跟交通部一樣。我當然知道這個牽扯到交通的安全、行人的安全、包括裝置的安全。交通部一直跟我說那個太陽能板只要遇到大風、遇到什麼，它就會飛走……"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：我告訴你，高雄這次17級風，也沒看到什麼太陽能板飛走啊。"],["郭部長智輝：但是這有一個很大的問題，包括成本，建構一個這樣子的環境當然是非常地理想，但是以目前的成本來考量，它可能發出來的電沒有辦法相抵我們的投資。所以如果基於實驗、科學來看，是沒有問題的；但是如果按企業經營、台電來經營這個的話，可能就是不符成本。"],["邱委員議瑩：這個當然不可能是台電去經營，但是我覺得是不是政府能夠研究，可以開始做一些可行性評估？"],["郭部長智輝：研究可以，可行性評估……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，高公局已經正式說，它會蒐集類似像這樣的國外經驗，在蒐集國外經驗之前，它已經在北、中、南12個服務區招標完成，先在服務區做起。不管是哪一國好的例子，高公局會去蒐集，我們再來進一步研究。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。院長，我其實覺得我們一直在談光電、談能源政策，剛剛很多委員在問你們能源配比的事情，我覺得還是應該要有更多創新的想法，讓臺灣能夠在能源的這件事情上面還是持續走在世界的前端，好不好？謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第8號邱志偉委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員邱志偉書面質詢：","議題一：台日議題（國發會、經濟部）","問題：","1.關於貿易與投資：針對2030年前達成台日貿易額提高1.5倍的目標，國發會和經濟部目前有哪些具體政策或措施來推動？如何改善台灣的投資環境，以促進日本企業增加對台投資？","2.台版晶片法適用問題：台版晶片法至今未能適用於日本企業，經濟部是否有計畫放寬研發費用和設備支出的門檻？政府如何支持日本半導體企業在台灣的投資？","3.離岸風電與產業合作：關於日本工商會提出的離岸風電國產化問題，經濟部是否有進一步的彈性政策規劃，來吸引更多日商在台投資？如何協助日本企業克服台灣的法規障礙？","4.經濟夥伴協定與關稅問題：台日經濟夥伴協定的進展如何？政府如何推動雙方降低關稅及消除非關稅壁壘，進一步促進雙邊貿易成長？","5.CPTPP加入進程：針對台灣加入CPTPP的努力，國發會與經濟部持續爭取日本等成員國的支持，並推動台灣順利加入該協定，目前進度為何？","說明：","1.2024年10月4日台北市日本工商會政策建言白皮書提出台日經濟合作的三大目標：首先，雙方貿易額希望在2030年前提升1.5倍，台灣對日出口目標達500億美元，日本對台出口750億美元。其次，雙邊投資應維持歷史最高水位，台日相互投資各20億美元。最後，雙方學生和商務交流應穩定維持並擴大，提升台日民眾互訪和留學人數。","2.白皮書中提到的五大建議包括：建立自由流通的貨物和服務制度，營造安心的投資環境，通過企業間合作強化供應鏈，促進學生和企業間的交流，及推動行政上的彈性政策。此外，白皮書也強調簽署經濟夥伴協定、降低關稅和非關稅壁壘，解除福島食品的進口限制，以促進台日雙邊的經濟發展。","3.日本工商會特別提到台版晶片法案，建議台灣放寬研發費用和設備支出的門檻，讓日商也能適用，並促請台灣政府加速加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定（CPTPP）。同時，面對中國中止ECFA早收清單優惠關稅的影響，日商呼籲雙方政府早日簽署全面經濟夥伴協定，以增進彼此經濟利益。","4.國發會主委劉鏡清承諾將努力修改法令，營造適合外商投資的環境。他並指出，台日經濟合作將日益緊密，且將積極推動雙方青年在創新基地的合作與發展，進一步促進雙邊經貿往來。劉主委也承諾，會與經濟部討論離岸風電國產化等議題，以給予業者更多彈性。","議題二：農業議題（農業部）","問題：","1.鑑於近期颱風頻繁侵襲台灣，造成農業嚴重損失，又政府有關農業天然災害救助及農業保險之施政繁多，為增進相關施政績效，據農業部統計，山陀兒颱風造成農業災情嚴重，截至10月7日上午11時止，造成農業損失金額約4億9,863萬元。然而，現行辦法規定同產季農產品的現金救助僅能限領一次，無法充分反映農民的實際損失，也無法因應如凱米、山陀兒颱風接連來襲等極端氣候情形。爰請農業部提出報告，檢討現行「農業天然災害救助辦法」中對同產季農產品現金救助次數的限制，並評估放寬救助次數限制及提高補償額度之可行性，從寬從優地協助農民渡過難關。","2.此外，面對氣候變遷加劇，農業保險的重要性與日俱增，然而根據農業金融署統計，我國農業保險投保件數呈現下滑趨勢，從2022年27萬件、2023年25萬件再到2024年8月底的19萬件，若扣除強制性保險，整體覆蓋率僅17%（2024年3月止），其中近年農損情形較為嚴重的農漁產品覆蓋率更是偏低。爰此，建請農業部提出報告，評估投保誘因（如與保險公司協議提高保險給付額度，同時加強宣導並簡化投保程序）以強化我國農業韌性，協助農民更有效地因應日益頻繁的天然災害。","議題三：碳足跡登錄（經濟部）","問題：","1.隨著政府未來要求投標中小企業填報產品的碳足跡，現今中小企業是否具備足夠的技術能力與資源來進行碳足跡計算與填報？","2.針對可能的困難，政府是否有計畫提供支援或輔導措施？","3.請提供目前中小企業的總家數及具備碳足跡計算能力的企業家數。","說明：","1.工程會於9月30日的業務報告指出，未來在共同供應契約上架時，訂約機關將要求得標廠商自主提供碳排放數據，並記錄碳排量。工程會也計劃推出「碳排資料庫」，鼓勵廠商將經查證的產品碳足跡主動登錄，藉此協助政府建立各工程項目的「碳排放量標準」。然而，許多中小企業參與政府投標案件，面對未來可能的碳足跡填報要求。","議題四：能源管理法（經濟部）","問題：","1.請經濟部提出報告，評估能源管理法應納入「節能目標」以落實淨零碳排願景。","2.請經濟部提出報告，評估能源管理法研議增訂相關租稅或獎勵規定。","說明：","1.經濟部於7月30日預告能源管理法部分條文修正草案，以強化能源需求面管理、提升能源效率。本次草案重點：將再生能源及熱能納入能源項目、公開能源銷售統計資料、地方政府參與節能管理、提高罰責規定。但問題是與2018年能源管理法修正草案之修正重點相近，僅有部分調整。參考國外經驗發現，許多國家積極推動節能目標。然而，我國的能源管理法尚未納入這部分。建議政府參考歐盟能源效率指令，設定整體耗能目標與年度節能義務，並依照我國氣候變遷因應法的立法體例，將節能目標納入能源管理法，以強化節能推動的具體化。","2.相較於國外推動建築物節能的經驗，如歐盟《建築能源效率指令》提供翻新工程的財政激勵（如降低稅率）及日本《建築物節能法》採取節能措施後容積率特例不計入總面積，我國《能源管理法》在促進節能的誘因上，似乎缺乏有效的租稅或獎勵機制。建議參考《中小企業發展條例》、《環境教育法》及《廢棄物清理法》等立法體例，研擬增訂相關租稅或獎勵措施，加速提升國內整體能源效率。","議題五：減碳旗艦行動計畫（經濟部）","問題：","1.請經濟部提供減碳旗艦行動計畫。","議題六：氫能（國發會、經濟部）","問題：","1.請國發會、經濟部就氫能基礎建設提出報告。","2.請國發會、經濟部就氫能應用特色園區之建議，提出報告。","3.請國發會、經濟部提供2050氫能供應鏈旗艦規劃說明。包含為什麼要強化既有方案？為什麼要提出新增政策面向？","說明：","1.氫氣生產為發展氫能社會之基礎，美國從1970年開始便針對氫能技術展開各種研發項目的補助，包含氫氣生產、運輸、存儲和利用進行研發。目前全球仍以化石燃料產氫為主，電解產氫僅佔4%左右，主要因為電解製氫的成本較高。但基於減碳考量，美國、中國和歐洲三大經濟體未來發展趨勢仍以再生能源電解產氫為主，預期成本將下降至具有相當的市場競爭力。","2.日本是最致力於發展氫能的國家之一，其經濟產業省發布的基本氫戰略中促進了氫的採用。著眼於擴大可再生能源的使用，日本東芝等大廠與新能源產業技術綜合開發機構（NEDO）合作展開福島氫能研究場（FH2R）技術開發項目，於2018年完成建置20MW的太陽能發電設施，搭配電網電力可供10MW級製氫裝置中的水進行電解，每小時可生產、儲存和供應高達1200Nm3氫氣。隨著製氫成本的下降，輸送和分配氫氣成本將成為下一個重點課題。以液態氫型態來儲存和運送為目前國際積極發展的技術之一，可大幅減少氫氣的體積。","3.我國2050年淨零目標再生能源占比60%～70%，其中氫能占9%～12%，加上搭配碳捕捉之火力發電占20%～27%，促成整體電力供應的去碳化，不僅與日、韓等國際趨勢及作法一致，也是賴總統「綠色成長與2050淨零轉型」國家希望工程一環。","4.工研院評估我國2050年氫氣需求量約406萬噸，其中超過四成為自產、近六成需依靠進口，如何克服運輸、儲存等挑戰，即為發展氫應用的重點項目，必須建置氫經濟上下游完整產業鏈規劃，才能發揮氫應用的最大效益。為強化我國氫能技術應用、完備運儲設施、拓展進口氫氨來源，工研院建議設立北中南氫能應用特色園區。","議題七：籃球聯盟結合（公平會）","問題：","1.請公平會針對籃球聯盟合併議題，提出一份說明報告（包含五大問題）。","說明：","1.台灣職業籃球大聯盟2024年7月9日創立，查公平會業務報告卻沒有出現相關職籃聯盟合併文字！聯盟未依據公平交易法第十一條規定，用事業合併向公平會提出結合申報。公平會也未依據公平交易法針對籃球聯盟合併，有所作為。原本兩大籃球聯盟計畫合併，然而，由於部分球隊的反對與退出，最終形成了一個規模較大的新聯盟和一個規模較小的舊聯盟的局面。這樣的新格局反而引發了新的市場競爭與公平交易法相關的挑戰。","2.申報/管制三大理由","A.職籃賽事作為商業行為：球迷購票進場觀賽，賽程安排、球員技術、以及啦啦隊表演，都是影響消費者決策的關鍵。這些因素顯示職籃賽事具備商品化性質。","B.職業運動商品化的視角：從公平交易法的觀點，職籃賽事經營屬於「事業」的範疇。新聯盟的成立應該受到公平交易法的規範。","C.聯盟合併對市場競爭的影響：兩大球團聯盟合併成新聯盟可能對市場競爭造成以下影響：限制球員轉隊及轉隊賽事活動、限制球團選秀會議交涉權或與球員簽約約款、設定各球團與球員簽約金上限、規定新球團加入的條件（需現有球團同意或繳交較高加盟金）。","3.五大問題","A.市場壟斷與限制競爭：台灣職業籃球大聯盟擁有7個球隊，而PLG僅剩4隊。從市場壟斷的角度來看，是否會因為一個聯盟壟斷大部分資源、贊助商及球迷，限制其他聯盟的發展？","B.聯盟間球隊轉隊限制：若兩個聯盟存在並且球隊之間有轉隊需求，會不會出現限制球員自由轉隊的情況？這是否可能構成「限制交易」的問題？","C.薪資與簽約金限制：若兩個聯盟之間的財務結構不同，是否會導致球員簽約金上限不一致，進而造成競爭不公平？新聯盟是否會透過更高的簽約金限制吸引更多優秀球員？","D.贊助與廣告收入分配不均：贊助商和廣告商可能更傾向於資源較多或市場規模較大的聯盟，是否會造成市場競爭的不公平，並且影響較小聯盟的生存？","E.消費者選擇權：如果一個聯盟壟斷了較多資源及球員，是否會影響到球迷作為消費者的選擇權，導致市場的選擇有限，影響票房和市場活力？"],["主席：接下來我們請登記第9號陳冠廷委員質詢。"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預算趕快復為。委員你在議會在立法院很久,沒有一件事情是剛剛才談過現在馬上有結果。"},{"start":178.679,"end":204.207,"text":"對啦,但是你們很急嘛,我現在也在替你著急嘛,我現在也替你著急,所以但是,要把那個大家想辦法要有共識的點,對起碼要大家可以聚焦來談嘛,但是現在好像沒有辦法,所以我才請教您說,院長。充分了解雙方的立場,雖然我知道很多先進委員講過好幾次,我也在這個地方表達過很多次原則性的問題,"},{"start":204.787,"end":212.611,"text":"但是能夠這樣子面對面的﹐沒有時間的限制﹐在比較輕鬆的狀況之下來交談﹐非常寶貴的經驗﹐我想從這個經驗就可以繼續往下發展﹐但是重點還是要預算﹐要有機會﹐但不是說要復違﹐因為是你們急著要審預算﹐委員您不急嗎﹐"},{"start":226.374,"end":229.055,"text":"國民黨團有授權給總召跟書記長在某一些程度底下大家是可以溝通的所以我剛才才請教院長"},{"start":252.06,"end":271.839,"text":"因為可能請總統出來,因為我不認為進法補償條例,大家再多編列一點,或者用其他追加緊預算,怎麼樣處理,大家不能夠解決。我覺得這都不是很大一筆什麼樣的數字。所以說我覺得大家就那些問題,其實不是說不能抽腿,我們在預算,在議會,你也當過市議員,你也當過立法會,"},{"start":275.583,"end":290.875,"text":"我覺得不是說零和遊戲,就是有辦法可以去溝通,但是如果每一個人都硬幫幫那一塊的話,這個走不下去。所以我剛剛才問你說,我覺得如果去吃這場餐會,你沒有一些籌碼,你沒有一些授權,"},{"start":292.677,"end":292.837,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":319.346,"end":324.067,"text":"我原因多慮了。 我跟總統報告過我跟韓院長相約這件事情﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖�"},{"start":347.791,"end":349.494,"text":"有談,院長我要提醒你啦,有談要有結果,因為大家要看的是一個結果論。 我不認為在野黨都是硬梆梆的一塊,我們也了解…… 我也不是硬梆梆的一塊。"},{"start":362.895,"end":366.777,"text":"我希望有好的結果,但是我不希望這個院長你被卡在上不上下不下,又沒有被總統授權,然後他又不願意幫你開院紀協調,然後你又沒有任何籌碼。"},{"start":386.57,"end":389.433,"text":"但是無論如何快樂的人看到希望,憂慮多的人會看到遺憾。"},{"start":407.178,"end":429.645,"text":"我當然希望看到院長,因為你不是一個不能溝通的院長,但是我希望提出來的方向是可以解決的方案,大家可以走得下去。因為今天是經濟委員會的質詢,我還是要請問一下有關於我們的能源政策的問題。能源政策對國家來說實在太重要了。"},{"start":430.345,"end":450.104,"text":"院長你看到包括在今年6月5號的時候當時國部長提到未來可以在上個會期對於能源配比的調整有一定的目標跟方向。 經濟部能源署也說未來10年每一年至少成長率用電的需求會成長2.8%到3%。"},{"start":452.346,"end":452.967,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":469.059,"end":493.973,"text":"媒體也在講,包括我今天早上也有看到部長也回答柯正委員說,如果對於台電的補貼到位,但是我們仍舊在漲電,電價還是不斷的漲,就是你離開的時候。部長我先請教你,你講這句話,呃,代表你覺得這個位置坐起來你是有點倦情嗎?還是很委屈?我早上已經請部長不讓再講這種話了。"},{"start":497.138,"end":498.527,"text":"院長 我再請教部長"},{"start":501.644,"end":529.096,"text":"部長你直接回答,你不要去管院長講什麼,其實我覺得這件事情其實就是在你整個在很多議題的想法,特別在能源政策上,您來自民間企業產業界,我相信總統看到您的在產業界的能力找您進來,所以做該做的事,說該說的話,所以第一時間您提到說臺電未來不再撥補,要想辦法自己賺錢自負盈虧,這個是一個產業界的說法。"},{"start":530.296,"end":551.207,"text":"我來跟委員報告,我的意思是說這2000億的撥補主要是調整臺電的財務情況。那麼在未來的電價的決定,漲不漲當然不是我來決定,漲不漲價是由電價委員會來決定的。但是我必須要創造一個,是電價審議委員會決定的。"},{"start":556.51,"end":557.291,"text":"從能源政策開始"},{"start":572.598,"end":599.583,"text":"媒體在批評說如果經濟不窮的只剩下漲價跟補助這兩件事情而沒有去思考到整個上層發電結構是不是合理因為電價成本跟我們能源政策的配比很重要燃氣很貴但你現在民進黨要非核家園然後火力發電又在燒廢用愛發電用廢發電所以我們能源配比的政策到底要不要調整你有沒有想法"},{"start":601.982,"end":617.096,"text":"我們的能源政策當然我們現在 能源配比 能源配比 蔡英文有50%、30%、20%賴政府在你底下 你的能源政策 院長你有沒有想法 有沒有 還是蔡規賴誰"},{"start":624.938,"end":648.223,"text":"能源政策是國家長遠既定的,現在也在推動的政策。每位總統都有他的看法,但是對已經在進行中的政策,我們首先是希望能夠繼續的走下去。我們並沒有否定現在的任何能源政策,而且我們認為發展綠能,"},{"start":649.923,"end":653.644,"text":"我們現在新的這個能源的配比是延續這個蔡總統的能源政策然後我們稍微做一個修正我們現在先把煤"},{"start":674.206,"end":674.466,"text":"我跟委員報告這個他"},{"start":703.407,"end":712.999,"text":"本來是2025年可以達到20%但是因為這個俄烏戰爭的原因所以讓它是要delay那我們會在2026年的11月達成這個標但是我的目標還是在2030年"},{"start":720.848,"end":737.357,"text":"二〇三〇年的時候,我們讓綠電能夠滿足臺灣的氣味能夠的需求。我現在看到你所有的用電規劃都是到二〇三〇年,你曾經也是說目前所有的布局都是到二〇三〇年,院長卓院長,"},{"start":740.226,"end":763.777,"text":"賴總統應該有想要爭取下一屆連任,下一屆連任2028也是,下一屆總統是2028做到2032嘛,所以我就覺得很奇怪,能源政策、能源配比、供電、國際產業要留住AI產業這些大公司,你絕對不是說我的佈局到2030年就夠了,這個對國家經濟政策來說是重要的,不論是下一屆總統是誰,繼續是賴總統或者是其他人,"},{"start":767.139,"end":793.511,"text":"我覺得用電都不會是布局到2030所以絕對不是2030之後不干我的事蔡英文可以這麼說但是我相信賴總統跟左院長您不會這麼說所以這個布局的說法是很奇怪的我最近看到包括Google在馬來西亞也設置花了20億設置場然後台積電也到美國花了650億美金也設置場就是說我覺得一個成熟的產業"},{"start":794.671,"end":811.807,"text":"他要看的是10年20年30年他把公司花上百億投資在這個地方他是有長遠性的所以你們講2030年布局到2030年這件事情是外界完全沒有辦法接受的所以你身為一個產業界來的部長你講布局到2030年"},{"start":813.396,"end":821.699,"text":"我覺得這件事情是讓外界、產業界想說臺灣的經濟部長怎麼會這樣?主席你能接受這樣的說法嗎?我們現在佈局直到2030年嗎?美國商會跟澳洲商會可以接受你這樣的說法嗎?我們是在講綠電。"},{"start":835.785,"end":846.968,"text":"二零三零年所以我們才用二零三年是一個目標二零五零年也是一個目標所以我們是分段設置目標在領域的二零三零年之後"},{"start":853.67,"end":881.282,"text":"你們現在都只保證2030年之前都不缺電,至少2030年。2030年之後的電怎麼樣拿出來給大家看,說服產業界,說服台灣的國際產業。我們都有計畫,因為蓋一個電廠要6年。好,那我繼續再問,蓋一個電廠要6年。好,那我就要問院長,因為我剩下51秒,我時間真的剩下不多。院長,很多事情要做最壞的打算,但是也要做最好的準備。"},{"start":882.382,"end":886.104,"text":"我了解委員的想法。我了解。我跟委員報告兩件事情。"},{"start":905.271,"end":905.451,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":942.022,"end":942.415,"text":"謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:29 - 14:46:12","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155386","gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（14時30分）謝謝院長，我可不可以請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：院長好。我剛剛看你緩慢的走進來，步態蹣跚的樣子，我還是要跟你講，無論是韓院長，或者是你，或者三黨的黨團總召都辛苦了。剛剛中午的朝野和解飯，吃的結果是在你的預料當中嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我剛剛沒有步履蹣跚，我還是非常輕快地走進來。"],["李委員彥秀：好，輕快地走進來，那這個結果是您預料當中的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，這是一個營養午餐，大家在那邊……"],["李委員彥秀：那結果呢？全臺灣的民眾要看的是結果，結果呢？沒有共識？"],["卓院長榮泰：結果就是我們從一個好的方向開始，然後走向另外一個新啟動……希望能夠啟動新的一個朝野協商的過程。"],["李委員彥秀：有共識的地方在哪裡？我從媒體上看到之後，我還沒有機會問韓院長，我也沒機會問我們總召。"],["卓院長榮泰：共識是大家已經多增加對彼此了解之後，繼續從協商中得到對整個解決方案更多的想法。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我相信你從政的資歷這麼久，你不會不清楚，協商就是大家有機會達成某一些共識跟結果，可能協商結果不是每一個人都滿意，但是最起碼可以讓我們現在政治的僵局、預算沒辦法付委的僵局，有機會達到某一些共識可以往下走。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我剛剛從媒體上看到，目前好像沒有一個這樣往下走的可能，至少從剛才媒體上我看到的解讀是這樣子，所以我要請教院長接下來怎麼辦？你難道還要拜託院長再排一次餐會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不用再餐會，只要能夠進行協商……"],["李委員彥秀：或者是我今天早上從媒體上看到，院際協調的部分，賴總統好像不願意召開，或者是請求另外一方，你再拜託賴總統來開院際協調，有沒有這個可能性？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統有憲法賦予總統的權限，他自然會去處理……"],["李委員彥秀：他當然可以開院際協調嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：但我認為本件在大院跟行政院之間就總預算的問題，我跟韓院長之間來拜託三個黨團繼續往一個大家都能夠理解的方向……"],["李委員彥秀：怎麼繼續？我剛剛看的結果，這個餐會是破局，大家沒有共識，我們都希望預算趕快付委……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你在議會、在立法院很久，沒有一件事情是剛剛才談過現在馬上有結果。"],["李委員彥秀：對啊！但是你們很急嘛！我現在也在替你著急嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：你不急嗎？大家都很急啊！你不急嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：但是那個大家想辦法要有共識的點，最起碼要大家可以聚焦來談嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是現在好像沒有，所以我才請教您說，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛已經充分了解雙方的立場，雖然我知道很多先進、委員也講過好幾次，我也在這個地方表達過很多次原則性的問題，但是能夠這樣面對面的、沒有時間的限制，在比較輕鬆的狀況之下來交談，變成是一個非常寶貴的經驗……"],["李委員彥秀：所以要繼續開就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想從這個經驗就可以繼續往下發展。"],["李委員彥秀：但是重點還是預算要有機會付委，有共識之後預算要付委，因為是你們急著要審預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員你不急嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：我當然也覺得預算審好很重要，但是前提是……因為行政院現在違法編列在先……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！就不要說我們急，國人更急、國家更急。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我不知道賴總統有沒有跟你討論這件事情，我覺得要有共識也不困難，國民黨團有授權給總召跟書記長，在某一些程度底下大家是可以溝通的，所以我剛才才請教院長，你有沒有可能請總統出來？因為我不認為禁伐補償條例再多編列一點或者用其他追加減預算怎麼樣處理，大家不能夠解決，我覺得這都不是很大一筆什麼樣的數字，所以我覺得大家就這些問題，其實不是不能抽退，我們在預算、在議會，你擔任過市議員，也擔任過立法委員，我覺得不是說零和遊戲，就是有辦法可以去溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：但是如果每一個人都硬邦邦一塊的話，那就走不下去了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，就是這個態度……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我剛剛才問你，我覺得如果去吃這場餐會，你沒有一些籌碼，你沒有一些授權，我覺得就很難談得下去。但我也會覺得院長你做得很辛苦、很可憐，因為如果你沒有被授權，總統又不給你院際調節的可能性，你又完全不能退或用後面追加減預算再去做補償措施的話，這個預算怎麼走得下去？這個是我覺得院長很辛苦的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您多慮了，我跟總統報告過我跟韓院長相約、跟黨團見面這件事情，總統也在各方得到這樣的訊息，他跟我的講法……"],["李委員彥秀：他願意院際協調？"],["卓院長榮泰：他對我的講法，就誠如昨天總統在國慶大會上的講法一樣，他很高興看到韓院長跟我能夠對朝野和解的方式、協商的過程繼續去做努力，他很高興看到這一點，這就是總統唯一而且是最重要的態度，我們就在這個態度底下……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我要提醒你，有談要有結果，因為大家要看的是一個結果，我不認為在野黨都是硬梆梆的一塊，我們也了解行政院的困難度……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不是硬梆梆的一塊。"],["李委員彥秀：對，所以我本來以為有機會至少達到一點共識……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以不要在這一刻就急著要我說出什麼話來，因為剛剛跟韓院長講了很多話，我們還要再做很多的努力。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我尊重，我希望有好的結果。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我不希望院長被卡在上不上、下不下的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！"],["李委員彥秀：又沒有被總統授權，他又不願意幫你開院際協調，然後你又沒有任何籌碼可以來跟在野黨……對不起，我不能說籌碼，我應該說在預算上後面違法編列的部分要怎麼樣做補救措施，如果你沒有任何後續可以處理，你出來談就等於是白談，這是我要提醒你的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是無論如何，快樂的人看到希望，憂慮多的人會看到遺憾。"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有憂慮，我當然希望看到院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，那我們就快樂的往前走。"],["李委員彥秀：因為你不是一個不能溝通的院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就和韓院長快樂的往前走。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我希望提出來的方向是可以解決的方案，大家可以走得下去。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也希望是，大家都希望是。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，因為今天是經濟委員會的質詢，我還是要請問有關於能源政策的問題。能源政策對國家來說實在是太重要了，院長，你看到包括在今年6月5日的時候，就是在上個會期，當時郭部長提到未來對於能源配比的調整，他有一定的目標跟方向；經濟部能源署也說，未來十年每一年用電的需求會成長2.8%到3%；還有包括我們現在能源跟環境已經提升到總統自己站在第一線去處理氣候變遷的議題。在北部地區，我們也都知道北部地區每一年用電的需求高達200億度，所以媒體也在講，包括我今天早上也有看到部長回答柯志恩委員說，如果對於台電的補貼到位，但是我們仍舊在漲電價，電價還是不斷的漲，那就是你離開的時候。部長，我現在先請教你，你講這句話代表你覺得這個位置坐起來，你是有點倦勤嗎？還是很委屈？"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上已經請部長不能再講這種話了。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我在請教部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我替他回答。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你直接回答，你不要去管院長講什麼，其實這件事情就是在很多議題的想法，特別在能源政策上，您來自民間企業、產業界，我相信總統是看到您在產業界的能力才找您進來的，所以做該做的事、說該說的話。第一時間您提到台電未來不再撥補，要想辦法自己賺錢，自負盈虧，這是一個產業界的說法。"],["郭部長智輝：我來跟委員報告，我的意思是，這2,000億的撥補主要是調整台電的財務情況，未來電價的決定，漲不漲當然不是由我來決定，漲不漲價是由電價委員會來決定的，但是我必須要創造一個……"],["李委員彥秀：漲不漲是您來決定，還是電價委員會決定的？"],["郭部長智輝：是電價審議委員會決定的，不是我決定……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你早上講那個話……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我要創造台電沒有這樣的狀況。"],["李委員彥秀：您進來坐部長這個位置，這一連串從能源政策開始，媒體在批評，如果經濟部窮得只剩下漲價跟補助這兩件事情，而沒有去思考到整個上層的發電結構是不是合理……因為電價的成本跟能源政策的配比很重要，燃氣很貴，現在民進黨要非核家園，然後火力發電卻又在燒，用愛發電、用肺發電，所以能源配比政策到底要不要調整？你有沒有想法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的能源政策，當然我們現在……"],["李委員彥秀：能源配比、能源配比！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在與時俱進……"],["李委員彥秀：蔡英文有50%、30%、20%，至於賴政府的能源政策，院長，你有沒有想法？也沒有？還是蔡規賴隨？"],["卓院長榮泰：能源政策是國家……"],["李委員彥秀：因為這個牽涉到成本嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。能源政策是國家長遠、既定的、現在也在推動的政策，我們往這個目標走。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我才問你，是不是蔡規賴隨或蔡規卓隨？"],["卓院長榮泰：每一位總統都有他的看法，但是對已經在進行中的政策，我們首先希望能夠繼續走下去。我們現在……"],["李委員彥秀：所以目前不會調？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們並沒有否定現在任何的能源政策，而且我們認為發展綠能，在全世界來看是需要的。"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有說不能發展，我也支持喔！但我是指蔡英文的能源配比，你們是不是也是跟著？因為他的能源配比很清楚，50%、30%、20%……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不太一樣，現在新的能源配比是延續蔡總統的能源政策稍微修正。我們現在先把煤降為零，這個是我們的作法，所以我們要用綠電……"],["李委員彥秀：所以不修正？一樣是50%、30%、20%……"],["郭部長智輝：用綠電來補。"],["李委員彥秀：重點是再生能源今年只到10%，我看最後一張表只到10%，顯然是跳票的。雖然蔡英文跳票，不過他已經不在這個位置上。現在20%仍舊是跳票，怎麼辦呢？"],["郭部長智輝：本來是2025年可以達到20%，因為俄烏戰爭，所以讓它稍微delay，我們會在2026年11月達成這個目標，但是目標還是在2030年。2030年我們會讓綠電能夠滿足臺灣企業的需求。"],["李委員彥秀：你剛剛提到2030年，我現在看到你所有的用電規劃都是到2030年，你也曾經說目前所有的布局都是到2030年。卓院長，賴總統應該有想要爭取下一屆連任，下一屆總統是2028做到2032年，所以我就覺得很奇怪，能源政策、能源配比、供電及要留住國際AI產業這些大公司，絕對不是布局到2030年就夠了，這個對國家經濟政策來說是重要的。不論下一屆總統是誰，是賴總統續任或者是其他人，我覺得用電都不會只是布局到2030，所以絕對不是2030之後不干我的事。蔡英文可以這麼說，但是我相信賴總統跟卓院長不會這麼說，所以這個布局的說法是很奇怪的。","我最近看到，包括Google在馬來西亞也花了20億設廠，台積電也到美國花了650億美金設廠。我覺得一個成熟的產業要看的是10年、20年、30年，因為公司花上百億投資在這個地方是有長遠性的，所以你們講布局到2030年這件事情，外界完全沒有辦法接受。你身為一個產業界來的部長，你講布局只到2030年，我覺得這件事情會讓外界、產業界認為，臺灣的經濟部長怎麼會是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：不！委員，你現在……"],["李委員彥秀：卓院長，你能接受這樣的說法嗎？賴總統，可以接受我們現在布局只到2030年嗎？美國商會跟歐洲商會可以接受這樣的說法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：2030年是歐洲有RE100這樣的綠電規範，我們是在講綠電2030年，所以才用2030年為一個目標，2050年也是一個目標，我們是分段設置目標在努力的，不是說我們現在的計畫只做到2030年，不是這樣！"],["李委員彥秀：你的說法我在媒體上都可以看得到，但是我必須要提醒你們，你們現在都只保證2030年之前都不缺電，至少2030年，但2030年之後的電怎麼樣，拿出來給大家看，說服產業界、說服臺灣的國際廠。"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有計畫，因為蓋一個電廠要6年，任何一種電廠都要6年。"],["李委員彥秀：那我繼續再問，蓋一個電廠要6年，好。但我就要問院長，因為我剩下51秒，時間真的剩下不多。院長，很多事情要做最壞的打算，但是也要做最好的準備。雖然民進黨非核家園不要核二、核三，但是你現在廢掉核二、核三，如果2030年之後，我們的其他發電廠跟不上，你到2030年再來討論這件事就來不及，因為核二、核三必須要有一定的安全程序……"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解委員的想法。"],["李委員彥秀：你很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解，我跟委員報告兩件事情……"],["李委員彥秀：社會溝通或者是後續要找核廢料的去處都要現在開始談，所以核二、核三未來會不會是一個備用的選項，現在就要開始討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告兩件事情，任何一位總統都不會以連任來作為現在施政的思考，那會太短暫，我們是以國家長遠來思考，2030年是我們這一階段認為供電無虞，我們會往後推演，延著時間往後推演，委員請放心……"],["李委員彥秀：那就不要再講2030年，你要告訴外界、告訴國際廠商，臺灣的用電未來30年是一個怎樣的狀況，我們才有機會變成AI大國。"],["卓院長榮泰：正在往那個方向努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員質詢，也謝謝我們卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第7號邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:55","end_time":"2024-10-11T11:44:54+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155385","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","duration":955,"start_time":"2024-10-11T11:28:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c63831a785fd86b7107c1de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdfb56b5c2703a0a28e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.434093750000002,"end":18.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.69034375,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.723468750000002,"end":23.824718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.824718750000002,"end":24.820343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.887843750000002,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.90471875,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.984718750000003,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.65971875,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.23346875,"end":27.351593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.59909375,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.61596875,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.23159375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.00346875,"end":43.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.445968750000006,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.75784375,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.72346875,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.845343750000005,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.47346875,"end":60.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.05096875,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.18971875,"end":65.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.80971875,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.53096875,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.69471875,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.93471875,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.82034375,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.55346875000001,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.67096875,"end":90.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.27846875,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.27784375,"end":97.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.19284375000001,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.66096875000001,"end":104.67284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.14534375000001,"end":107.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.27159375000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.71034375,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.27534375,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.37659375000001,"end":111.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.39346875000001,"end":110.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.06409375000001,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.62909375000001,"end":118.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.83096875000001,"end":122.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.84721875000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.88096875000001,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.93159375,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.96534375,"end":123.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.50909375,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.94284375,"end":134.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.59221875,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.63409375,"end":137.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.89971875,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.58721875,"end":141.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPE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海鮮淹水市區必定會淹大水,排水系統做得好,絕對是防災的第一基礎。"},{"start":146.522,"end":156.601,"text":"那尤其我們10月2號、3號、4號經歷了山陀台風的一個嚴重的肆虐那我想南山節水溝第三期工程"},{"start":158.1,"end":180.05,"text":"在上游部分要開闢北四溪及竹林北溪段,整治的長度2.9公里,那出估經費需要達65億,那現在剛好是汛期,每年的5月到11月這7個月的時間是臺灣雨量最豐沛的時候,加上梅雨台風季節,所以"},{"start":180.934,"end":193,"text":"本期在這邊要請教院長,針對這個第三期工程65億,包括土地、土增費還有這個這個地上物的補償費就高達近30億,所以要請"},{"start":194.315,"end":220.558,"text":"院長是不是能夠協助用特別補助款來協助請水利組這邊也多分攤一些經費首先謝謝委員剛剛說明在去年完成的第1、2期已經有效改善降低了淹水的風險那第三期現在工程還在進行延長當中但是裡面遭受到一些阻力跟障礙這個部長非常清楚我請部長來說什麼阻力報告委員"},{"start":221.058,"end":241.477,"text":"第三期的工程,因為山坡地是比較高層的因素,所以需要深挖。 要設計用鄉衡的方式,剛好經過民房的下方,所以遭到地方強烈抗議。"},{"start":243.302,"end":272.223,"text":"我們已經請這個臺中市政府持續的評估執行效益或者替代方案或者替代方案所以現在應該不是委員你指教的這個預算的問題而是那個通過的問題不是這個路線已經經過無數次的討論那現在就是說我們上游是在薩路地區從這個清泉崗機場一直銜接到這個中火所以這個部分"},{"start":272.802,"end":291.33,"text":"需要經過的沿線這些居民我們也經過多次的協商還有這個公開這個說明會公聽會等等那現在居民反倒是我們現在我們的市民認為說如果第三期工程沒有加速進行未來遭受到了這樣子的一個這個天災或者是強降雨"},{"start":291.69,"end":296.732,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":309.138,"end":310.179,"text":"經濟部將持續跟台中市政府"},{"start":327.99,"end":328.11,"text":"主席"},{"start":344.007,"end":345.809,"text":"應該不是預算的問題,而是那個路線的問題,要不要改。"},{"start":370.025,"end":372.587,"text":"現在就是市政府不敢提 為什麼 因為這是預算的問題"},{"start":397.796,"end":397.916,"text":"主席"},{"start":418.038,"end":436.811,"text":"主要的這個南山解鎖溝把它完成,請院長在這邊答應我好不好。那布裡面也要看地方提出來的計畫是不完整需求是不是急迫,那是不是要積極來處理,一定要這個計畫我們才能再做,不是說這裡答應就可以做的。如果說這個地方的需求強烈而急迫,而且"},{"start":437.551,"end":437.631,"text":"主席"},{"start":455.72,"end":474.995,"text":"這些預算都往南部或者是其他受創地方,那我們中部地區是望梅止渴,我們希望說真的要做預先的防範更加重要,我們不是在比較,我們只是希望說你把原來的預先的這些治水防範把它做好,那它未來就可能免於遭受到這樣的一個危害。"},{"start":475.595,"end":494.174,"text":"所以在這邊提出說那這樣子預算對我們行政院來講不是一個太大的困難所以我們明年編了551億 裡面很多是系統性的治水的工程當然啦當然啦因為我們區域內有很多的系統治水都要做 通過之後我們就能照計畫的優先順序跟它的緊迫性我們就逐一來編"},{"start":494.898,"end":523.19,"text":"跟委包絕對沒有地域的分別也不會特別照顧哪些地方全國都是一樣的所以我們這是為我們臺中市民請命因為整個臺中市的一個出來口那如果說造成日後我們是為這個防範於未來不希望它發生一個重大的危害我們目的是一樣的那我想再請教院長部長你們有沒有聽過北風與太陽的故事一手一眼"},{"start":524.733,"end":550.267,"text":"是穿外套的事情小學三年級的國語課本裡面寫的故事的內容就是說北風跟太陽他們兩個就是說要進行一場比賽決定誰的能力比較強那北風就開始對這些路上的行人就是他們的比賽就是說要把行人的外套大衣把它吹掉把它拿掉但是北風他就用他強勁的這個北風來"},{"start":554.05,"end":577.446,"text":"他越用力吹但是路上的行人就是把衣服越拉得更緊因為越冷就穿得更緊但是反觀太陽他用他溫暖的陽光照射在人民的身上那陽光越是越強烈他會覺得炎熱反倒是這樣子他把外套給脫掉那這個故事就是說要告訴我們就是說與其全力的控制對方不如"},{"start":578.266,"end":581.668,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":595.155,"end":621.78,"text":"吉利的去排斥同樣是綠電的核能發電本席認為這兩個故事很像越加的干預就會造成更多的問題那我想經濟部長、部長、郭部長你也提過就是說核能是乾淨的能源那世界各國也公認核電是綠電那台灣缺電是不爭的事實尤其缺綠電對不對剛剛你也提到台灣缺的是綠電"},{"start":623.842,"end":651.15,"text":"那所以本期今天要跟院長跟部長來討論就是說我們離岸風電目前的問題台灣的西就是台灣海峽台灣海峽是一個非常好的風場但是離岸風電卻改變了整個漁場那請教院長你知道全台灣最大的離岸風機基地在哪裡嗎離岸風機在彰化台中對台中還是彰化"},{"start":653.53,"end":674.495,"text":"我想沿海地區髒冰,這個都很難。 風場是在髒化,沒有錯,台中髒化,但是這個風機的基地是在台中港。所以報告委員,我們發展綠能,北風和太陽都需要,風吹動這個風機,太陽照亮這個電板,所以都需要。 對嘛,所以我們什麼電都要,尤其是綠電,對不對。"},{"start":675.535,"end":689.444,"text":"我跟這個委員報告一下就是現在要求綠電最大是美國的這個MicrosoftMicrosoft他不同意這個核電是綠電他只認為他是一個乾淨的能源"},{"start":690.547,"end":714.26,"text":"所以我們現在因為出口很多的這個公司啊,它是給Microsoft的這個市場。那一樣的道理,以現在台灣的綠電是不是2025、2026都已經被台積電買掉了?對不對?其他的護國大山也買不到這樣子的綠電嗎?我們現在跟委員報告,我們現在就是趕快讓這個太陽能光電跟風力還有小水綠發電,讓它趕快上來。"},{"start":716.241,"end":743.996,"text":"上來的時候我們希望到2030年能夠滿足這個30%是綠電這樣子的一個市場需求所以我認為這個目前我們先把這個綠電的這個問題先解決然後馬上解決這個碳因為2050年也迫在眉睫所以我們要解決這個零碳所以剛才您所指導的這個我們都會放在這個思考的這個範疇之內"},{"start":745.357,"end":769.022,"text":"部長媒體報導就是說9月23號約見這個開發商那釋出只要如期並往國產化可鬆綁的訊息那被業者稱為923之亂那部長在9月11號回應這個國產化限制已經8年差不多了那會朝開放的方向來進行所以現在這些"},{"start":770.688,"end":793.639,"text":"尤其是CIP總裁他說臺灣GDP是被許多護國大山傳產資產產業撐起都需要大宋綠電但是2025、2026的綠電都賣給了台積電臺灣不缺電但缺綠電那更媒體也說風電國產化還能走下去嗎那針對這一些批評跟這一些"},{"start":796.223,"end":818.254,"text":"我想請教他們都致函給經濟部陳情認為說這個朔旗既往的變更違反信賴保護原則那我現在給你時間不多啦那可不可以稍微講一下解釋一下部長是報告委員這個信賴保護原則就是政府一貫這個施政的這個基本原則不是我不是要問這個我要問說你要如何去因應後續"},{"start":819.969,"end":837.871,"text":"因為我現在的目的是這樣子就是說我到2028年是不會缺綠電的所以過去delay的這個風電我要讓他speed up讓他快速起來所以我們現在是幫助這個國產的公司告訴他們你有沒有什麼"},{"start":838.832,"end":866.846,"text":"需要經濟部協助的讓他可以成本降低的那麼可以這個滿足這些開發商在這個時間裡面能夠同時能夠這個這個掛網所以我想這個剛開始這個三之一的這些廠商他們擔心說啊這個國產化取消沒有取消他我們是幫助他們能夠降低成本我們希望讓風電的成本能夠繼續往下向"},{"start":868.387,"end":868.467,"text":"主席"},{"start":884.893,"end":887.435,"text":"三、11我們就是維持什麼樣的規範什麼樣的契約就是按照契約照走"},{"start":914.488,"end":939.297,"text":"三之一就這樣,三之二通案還是按照規範,那如果他有需要我們協助的,我們來幫助他,來解決他的問題。我們並沒有說這個地方開放國產化,因為只有三之三我們講說這個會朝國產化開放的這個方向。 時間不夠,這邊要強調了齁,要強調就是最重要的一點,公開透明。"},{"start":954.679,"end":954.699,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:28:59 - 11:44:54","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155385","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時29分）立法院江副院長大會主席、各位列席官員。主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長好。卓院長，現在因為極端氣候的影響，不只是颱風，包括我們全臺各地經常性的突發性豪雨，瞬間雨量都會造成淹水釀災，尤其是本席的選區在臺中海線，旁邊緊鄰的就是臺中盆地的大肚山臺地，如果剛好遇到海水漲潮，淹水造成的災損通常都非常嚴重，不能每一次都期待中央山脈來守護臺灣。今天的質詢，我要跟院長就教臺中南山截水溝計畫第三期的可能性，希望院長能夠支持。","本席在這邊要先感謝中央及市府過去共同的努力，讓南山截水溝一期、二期能夠順利完工。大肚山西麓沿著海線地區因為地勢低窪排水不易，過去曾經嚴重淹水，在中央跟地方政府的通力合作下，一期、二期的工程總長度6.5公里，經費分別是26億跟24億，現今主要河道已經完成，中央補助的部分，第一期補助21億，第二期補助14億。但是工程不能虎頭蛇尾，因為南山截水溝的完整性足以影響整個臺中市中部地區的出海口，海線淹水，市區必定會淹大水，排水系統做得好，絕對是防災第一基礎。尤其10月2號、3號、4號經歷了山陀兒颱風的嚴重肆虐，我想南山截水溝第三期工程在上游部分要開闢北勢溪及竹林北溪段，整治長度2.9公里，初估經費需要達65億。現在剛好是汛期，每年5月到11月這7個月的時間是臺灣雨量最豐沛的時候，加上梅雨、颱風季節。本席在這邊要請教院長，針對第三期工程，65億包括土地徵收費還有地上物補償費就高達近30億，所以要請院長是不是能夠協助用特別補助款來協助，請水利署這邊也多分攤一些經費？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：首先謝謝委員剛剛說明，在去年完成的第一、二期已經有效改善降低了淹水的風險，第三期工程現在還在進行研商當中，但是裡面遭受到一些阻力跟障礙，這個部長非常清楚，我請部長來說明。"],["顏委員寬恒：什麼阻力，可不可以說明？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，第三期工程因為山坡地比較高的因素，所以需要深挖，要設計用箱涵的方式，剛好經過民房的下方，所以遭到地方強烈抗議。我們已經請臺中市政府持續評估執行效益或者替代方案，所以現在應該不是委員所指教的預算問題，而是通過的問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，這個路線已經經過無數次的討論，現在就是上游在沙鹿地區，從清泉崗機場一直銜接到中火，針對這個部分需要經過的沿線居民，我們也經過多次協商，還有說明會、公聽會等等，現在反倒是我們市民認為如果第三期工程沒有加速進行，未來遭受到天災或者是強降雨，可能會造成整個海線地區的大淹水，所以這個部分剛好跟部長提到的、跟院長講的有點相反，現在是居民很積極地在等候中央伸出援手，因為對臺中市來講，這個預算的規模臺中市沒有辦法負擔，現在確實是遭受到很大的困難，希望中央尤其院長你們能夠伸出援手，協助臺中把海線治水防洪最重要的南山截水溝完成。院長，你願不願意？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，經濟部將持續跟臺中市政府討論怎麼樣合作，那麼下一個階段的治水計畫，因為您剛才所講的急迫性這麼高，所以我們會按照優先順序趕快……"],["顏委員寬恒：所謂優先順序，這個是排列在第幾名？你可不可以告訴我？整個出海口……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們會跟臺中市政府來談怎麼樣進行，就像您剛才講的……"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講整個大肚山西麓所有的出海口要防止山洪氾濫都要倚靠南山截水溝。"],["郭部長智輝：現在應該不是……"],["顏委員寬恒：現在一期、二期完成了……"],["郭部長智輝：應該不是預算的問題，而是那個路線的問題，要不要改。"],["顏委員寬恒：我是在地人，我最清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：所以就是臺中市政府OK之後，都沒問題我們就照做。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，無論是一般的公共建設或是對地方的計畫型補助，地方政府都要積極的提出需求跟整個規劃，才能報到院裡面來，由部來做進一步的審核，所以地方政府一定要積極負起這樣的責任。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在就是市政府不敢提，為什麼？因為這是預算的問題，老實講沒有中央的協助，以他一己之力確實是沒有辦法完成的，所以說市政府告訴我們，希望我們在中央能夠協助，我們跟江副院長和中部地區的各位立委也都全力要求，希望院長願意用特別補助款來協助臺中市，把防洪治水的主要河道──南山截水溝完成，請院長在這邊答應我，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：部裡面也要看地方提出來的計畫是不是完整、需求是不是急迫，是不是要積極來處理，一定有這個計畫，我們才能做，不是說這裡答應就不用做了。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長，你就答應要全力協助，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果說這個地方的需求強烈而急迫，而且……"],["顏委員寬恒：受害的是全民、是市民。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且這個計畫能夠跟中央做很妥善、合理的溝通，我們讓它形成一個可行的計畫，站在為地方、中央合力的情況下，我們當然願意考量。"],["顏委員寬恒：每次風災過後，我們總是看見政府把大筆的救助預算送往南部或其他受創的地方……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會這樣。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們中部地區只能望梅止渴，我們認為預先的防範更加重要，我們不是在比較，我們只是希望你把預先的治水防洪做好，未來就可能免於遭受到這樣的危害，所以在這邊提出，這樣的預算對行政院來講不是一個太大的困難。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們明年編了551億，裡面很多是系統性的治水工程預算。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然、當然，因為我們區域內很多系統治水工作……"],["卓院長榮泰：通過之後，我們就能照計畫的優先順序跟它的緊迫性逐一來編。跟委員報告，絕對沒有地域的分別，也不會特別照顧哪些地方，全國都是一樣的。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，所以我這是為我們臺中市民請命，因為整個臺中市的出海口，我們是希望防範於未然，不希望它發生重大的危害。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們目的是一樣的。"],["顏委員寬恒：對、對、對。我想再請教院長、部長，你們有沒有聽過伊索寓言裡面北風與太陽的故事？"],["卓院長榮泰：是穿外套的事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：小學三年級國語課本裡面寫的。"],["顏委員寬恒：故事的內容就是，北風跟太陽他們兩個說要進行一場比賽，決定誰的能力比較強，看誰能把行人的大衣拿掉，那北風就開始使用他強勁的北風，但是北風越用力吹，路上的行人越是把衣服拉得更緊，因為越冷衣服就穿得越緊；反觀太陽，它用它溫暖的陽光照射在路人身上，陽光越是強烈，路人越覺得炎熱，反倒是這樣，路人就把外套給脫掉了。這個故事就是告訴我們，與其全力的控制對方，不如放手讓對方心悅誠服，讓他心服口服。現在錯誤的政策就像北風跟太陽一樣，你過度的吹捧太陽能光電、風電，極力的去排斥同樣是綠電的核能發電，本席認為這兩個故事很像，越加干預就會造成更多的問題。我想經濟部郭部長也提過，核能是乾淨的能源，世界各國也公認核電是綠電，現在臺灣缺電是不爭的事實，尤其缺綠電，對不對？剛剛你也提到臺灣缺的是綠電，所以本席今天要跟院長、部長討論我們離岸風電目前的問題，臺灣海峽是一個非常好的風場，但是離岸風電卻改變了整個漁場，請教院長，你知道全臺灣最大的離岸風機基地在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：離岸風機在彰化、臺中。"],["顏委員寬恒：臺中還是彰化？"],["卓院長榮泰：像沿海地區彰濱，這個都很……"],["顏委員寬恒：風場是在彰化。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有錯，臺中、彰化，但這個風機的基地是在臺中港。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以報告委員，我們要發展綠能，北風跟太陽都需要。"],["顏委員寬恒：都需要嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：風吹動風機，太陽照亮電板，所以都需要。"],["顏委員寬恒：對嘛！所以我們什麼電都要。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：尤其是綠電，對不對？那核電也是綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，現在要求綠電最大的是美國的Microsoft，Microsoft不同意核電是綠電，只認為它是一個乾淨的能源。我們現在因為出口的很多公司是給Microsoft這個市場……"],["顏委員寬恒：那一樣的道理，現在臺灣的綠電……"],["郭部長智輝：對於這一點，我們現在全力在發展綠電。"],["顏委員寬恒：是不是2025、2026都已經被台積電買掉了？其他的護國大山也買不到綠電，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我們現在就是趕快讓太陽能、光電跟風力，還有小水力發電，讓它趕快上來，上來的時候，我們希望到2030年能夠滿足30%是綠電這樣子的市場需求。所以我認為目前我們先把綠電的這個問題解決，然後馬上解決碳部分，因為2050年也迫在眉睫，我們要解決零碳部分。因此，剛才您所指導的，我們都會放在思考的範疇之內。"],["顏委員寬恒：媒體報導，9月23日約見開發商，釋出只要如期併網，國產化可鬆綁的訊息，被業者稱為「923之亂」。部長在9月11日回應，提到國產化限制已經8年，差不多了，會朝開放的方向進行。所以現在這些廠，尤其CIP總裁說臺灣GDP是被許多護國大山、傳產、資通產業撐起，都需要大宗綠電，但是2025、2026的綠電都賣給了台積電，臺灣不缺電，但缺綠電。媒體也說風電國產化還能走下去嗎？針對這一些批評，我想請教，他們都致函經濟部陳情，認為這個溯及既往的變更違反信賴保護原則，現在時間不多，可不可以稍微講一下、解釋一下？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，這個信賴保護原則就是政府一貫的施政基本原則，所以……"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我不是要問這個，我要問你要如何因應後續？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我現在的目的是這樣子，就是我到2028年是不會缺綠電，過去delay的風電，我要讓它speed 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卓院長 還有郭部長我想 郭部長您就任以來兩次出國都剛好落在立法院總質詢的期間那今年6月去美國 9月去日本那6月新聞說您在美國當地拜訪美國"},{"start":69.724,"end":77.787,"text":"公務出國報告還沒有看到郭部長6月美國出國的報告。 經濟部聯絡人說郭部長的出國報告是密件,對此本席我也沒有打算索取該密件。"},{"start":98.221,"end":122.293,"text":"此次希望說經濟部要端出具體遭傷的一個成果,不要只有畫大餅。那本席查了一下經濟部投審會7月到9月的新聞稿,也沒有看到說來自美國新的一個投資。那本席再強調一次,請問部長何時會有來自美國的新投資呢?"},{"start":124.313,"end":141.464,"text":"報告委員,我們大概就是去強化原本在臺灣上一個會期那他們在這個有意願來臺灣的這些廠商,包括這個輝達,包括AMD,包括這個"},{"start":146.34,"end":146.42,"text":"那會不會來投資臺灣?"},{"start":172.745,"end":191.745,"text":"我們努力我們一定要努力因為他有兩個選項一個他要去馬來西亞一個他要去印度因為他的老闆是印度人所以我們是希望他留在台灣台灣的優勢要讓他充分的了解因為台灣在半導體這個領域裡面"},{"start":193.046,"end":193.526,"text":"我希望有一個好的成果"},{"start":217.305,"end":228.95,"text":"那個卓院長本席是支持綠能發展風電太陽以及光電都贊成那當初民進黨政府推動離岸風電國產化我這邊念一段經濟部的新聞稿"},{"start":235.093,"end":250.523,"text":"經濟部說,我國離岸風電基礎設施尚未完備,而且尚未建構國內本土產業鏈,設置成本相對比較高,故需要明確目標。"},{"start":253.342,"end":256.145,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":273.601,"end":283.56,"text":"當初經濟部說三遭可以把關而且確保風電國產化的罰款能夠砍短購匯率以及解約"},{"start":285.438,"end":301.756,"text":"到了經濟部,郭部長您來主政經濟部上任以後,就替風電業者大開方便之門,只要風電開發商在如期併網,完工前提下,國產化問題不受約束。"},{"start":306.061,"end":334.441,"text":"臺電8月發電成本資料顯示向民間風力發電業者購電每度高達6.59元等於差不多6.6元那風電業者荷包賺滿滿那政府卻想想辦法來替這些風電業者免除罰款不堪等賭的匯率這難道不是變相圖利嗎那個有什麼看法"},{"start":335.642,"end":361.298,"text":"報告委員,風電這個命題是這樣,就是說我們在過去確實是如你指證的,有準售價格。那麼也在希望鼓勵國產的廠商能夠努力的讓它有競爭力。但是我們在兩個月前,受到國外的廠商到歐盟去WTO去告我們。"},{"start":365.12,"end":369.623,"text":"對,這是以前那現在呢這個不一樣因為已經進步到這個階段所以他們外國的這個廠商啊他們發現說這個國產化是這個對他們來講這個在交易上面"},{"start":393.499,"end":419.852,"text":"那不然的話為什麼不公開招標一定要短購,短購就是溢價嘛。沒有,那個是過去。對不對,過去這個就是有弊端嘛。對,我們現在改了,我來了以後就改了。改了以後就是公開。不是他們去講,我們就配合。那個,部長,因為這短購是溢價,當初啊,我認為說公開招標很低,兩塊兩毛二,但是短購啊,欸,"},{"start":421.328,"end":444.964,"text":"你說要國產化結果現在又沒有辦法做你又幫他開方便之門這個講實在話為什麼台電會虧損連年這個不是沒有原因對不對因為電幾乎到現在你沒有辦法儲存你沒有用的話幾乎都是流掉那流掉結果你看"},{"start":445.845,"end":448.027,"text":"郭部長我相信你應該很清楚"},{"start":470.595,"end":492.308,"text":"我們現在討論的都是第三期的封店,前面剛才所指正的準購大概就是第一期、第二期。但是我們現在是第三期,我們現在三之一、三之二就是回到自由交易的狀況。"},{"start":493.82,"end":512.674,"text":"那因為那三之一在之前就已經開標了那三之二是最近才開的郭部長我跟你講我當初就一直質疑啊這個裡面齁是現在台電董事長叫曾文森由他來主導齁而且你一主導你開放先短夠短夠七成欸欸標20年欸"},{"start":515.296,"end":538.291,"text":"他花多少你一定要吸收多少,難怪臺電會虧損年年啊,對不對?結果剩三成,三成公開招標,兩塊兩毛二。但是啊,你短購價錢那麼高,溢價七成,剩下三成才做什麼?剩下三成才公開招標啊,標20年欸。所以說為什麼臺電現在一直在虧損當中?我認為這個問題很大。"},{"start":543.514,"end":562.393,"text":"我們現在因為需要這個綠電所以我一定要全力讓它能夠如期完工所以我們改變了一些方法希望在這個符合WTO的架構之下然後能夠將這個風電的成本能夠幫助他們降低讓他們產出來的價能夠賣給台灣的業者的時候"},{"start":566.277,"end":566.397,"text":"實在話啦!"},{"start":590.748,"end":614.573,"text":"我是聽不下去啦我認為國會議員就是要幫我們民眾發聲為什麼現在電你看漲了12.5%而且又要行政院編列預算年年來補貼台電這個不是沒有原因因你會合然後會合以後你變成說要綠能綠能又跟不上而且價格又那麼高"},{"start":615.594,"end":619.687,"text":"當然他有一個效應就變成年年要虧損臺電以前有這麼嚴重嗎?"},{"start":622.688,"end":649.181,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下我們也要針對國產化的問題對國內參與這個綠能發電、風機發電的整個國內的業者表示感謝他們也確實承擔了相當多的責任所以我們現在分做三個部分來講第一個部分31的部分我們已經在契約在走已經是照這樣不變了在32的因為他現在先到國際上的訴訟會增加了一些條件或增加了一些要求"},{"start":649.921,"end":650.141,"text":"卓院長"},{"start":674.582,"end":679.885,"text":"因為自2023年到現在政府已經編列給臺電增資2500億元,議後條例撥補500億,再加上在立法院即將要審查2000億的撥補,總計臺電增資以及撥補的累積金額達到5000億。"},{"start":696.455,"end":722.458,"text":"能源政策不檢討臺電虧損最後還是全民買單大家清清楚楚的電價的問題本期支持以核養綠那民進黨政府不要抱著緩和意識形態的神主牌綠能比例沒有達標也不願意以核養綠來拼命的燒煤燃氣還有火力發電等就佔了八成"},{"start":723.779,"end":741.391,"text":"根據臺電給本席的資料2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度是3.62元合能每度是1.39元3.62跟1.39你看落差多大如果2023年臺電合能發電量跟2015年一樣是351億度則天然氣發電則可以少"},{"start":751.758,"end":752.979,"text":"第一根委員報告"},{"start":775.191,"end":787.773,"text":"走向非核家園這個入法是在委員任內之前在通過的這是我們的法律這不是民進黨的神主牌電影法裡面就這樣寫的要朝向非核家園這是法律不是神主牌"},{"start":788.898,"end":813.272,"text":"但是現在我們立法院很多不管在朝在野﹖但是法律現在還是在的﹖這部法律現在還是在的﹖還在﹖對﹖可以改啊﹖可以修啊﹖你們要提出來啊﹖對不對﹖你不能說錯誤的政策﹖現在核電是綠能了﹖在修法﹖是不是修法之前我們現在就是多元的發展綠能﹖希望能夠進行這個科技的儲能﹖"},{"start":814.987,"end":832.321,"text":"對阿 但是科技儲能現在還跟不上阿 對不對 這個是在努力當中阿 現在還跟不上啦 科技的儲能還跟不上啦 這就是我們在二次能源轉型當中重要的目標 你店沒有辦法儲 所以說就流失掉"},{"start":833.081,"end":851.663,"text":"那難怪每年要虧損年年啊,你要是今天能夠儲電,那當然多少,不會那麼嚴重啊。另外剛剛委員所計算算出那個核能發電,即使在目前看成本低,但是在隱藏的核後端,核廢料的處理成本,那個隱性的成本非常非常的大。"},{"start":852.924,"end":853.304,"text":"那個 主委院長"},{"start":873.325,"end":894.196,"text":"媒體報導,英國在9月30日宣布七大工業國組織的先例,成為第一個終止南煤發電的國家,而我們南煤占50%。因應2050年淨零排碳的目標,世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的人員,包括核電在內,國際認可核能為綠電,"},{"start":897.899,"end":915.761,"text":"國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少排碳的放出來。此外美國在20多個國家共同發表《核能宣言》共同努力2050年全球核能容量增加為三倍的目標。"},{"start":918.141,"end":927.386,"text":"每日韓都大舉發展核電,難道民進黨政府的人員政策不需要做通牌性檢討嗎?現在我們優先幫臺灣出口的廠商爭取綠電,因為現在核能還不是屬於綠電,它是一個clean energy,它是一個乾淨的能源。"},{"start":942.847,"end":943.188,"text":"謝謝林委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:12:51 - 11:28:49","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155384","gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時13分）謝謝。大會主席江副院長，還有卓院長、郭部長。是不是請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：請卓院長跟郭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：你好。卓院長還有郭部長，郭部長，您就任以來兩次出國都剛好落在立法院總質詢期間，今年6月去美國、9月去日本，6月新聞說您在美國當地拜訪美國的美商，鼓勵業者來臺擴大投資。其實我也請助理去了解了一下，在公務出國報告的部分，還沒有看到郭部長6月美國出國的報告。經濟部的聯絡人說郭部長的出國報告是密件，對此，本席也沒有打算索取該密件啦，只是希望經濟部必須端出具體招商成果，不要只有畫大餅。本席查了一下經濟部投審會7月到9月的新聞稿，也沒有看到來自美國的新投資。本席再強調一次，請問部長，何時會有來自美國的新投資呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們大概就是去強化原本在臺灣，就是上個會期有意願來臺灣的這些廠商，包括輝達、包括AMD、包括Micron這些廠商，我去……"],["林委員德福：就是強化而已？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，因為他們會投資很多的錢，我們怕他去投資別人，所以我們要繼續讓他在臺灣、能夠繼續投資臺灣。譬如說，我跟您報告，就美光這個公司來講的話，他下一個投資是300億美元，這是一個非常大的投資。"],["林委員德福：那會不會來投資臺灣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們努力，我們一定要努力，因為他有……"],["林委員德福：努力？還有待努力就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，他有兩個選項，一個是要去馬來西亞，一個是要去印度，因為他的老闆是印度人，所以，我們是希望他留在臺灣。臺灣的優勢要讓他充分的了解，因為臺灣在半導體這個領域裡面有充分的優勢，包括我們的人、我們的整個環境、整個ecosystem，我想他們會選擇臺灣，但是還是因為有一些細枝末節的事情，所以我們是儘量保持讓他能夠滿意、繼續留在臺灣。所以，我跟委員報告……"],["林委員德福：好，希望有一個好的成果。","卓院長，本席是支持綠能發展，風電、太陽光電都贊成，當初民進黨政府推動離岸風電國產化，我這邊念一段經濟部的新聞稿，經濟部說「我國離岸風電基礎設施尚未完備，而且尚未建構國內本土的產業鏈，設置成本相對比較高，故需要明確目標量及躉購電價來吸引國內外業者投入，才能創造經濟規模。」聽到這邊，社會大眾都會把離岸風電躉購費率跟國產化連在一起。當初經濟部說有三招可以把關而且確保風電國產化，包括罰款、砍躉購費率以及解約。到了經濟部郭部長您來經濟部主政，上任以後就替風電業者大開方便之門，只要風電開發商在如期併網完工的前提下，國產化問題不受約束。台電8月的發電成本資料顯示，向民間風力發電業者購電，每度高達6.59元，等於是差不多6.6元，風電業者荷包賺滿滿，政府卻想辦法來替這些風電業者免除罰款、不砍躉購的費率，這難道不是變相圖利嗎？部長有什麼看法？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，風電這個命題是這樣子，就是說我們在過去確實如你指正的有躉售價格，也希望鼓勵國產的廠商，能夠努力的讓它有競爭力。但是在兩個月前，國外的廠商到歐盟、WTO去告我們……"],["林委員德福：舉發，告我們？"],["郭部長智輝：告我們，說我們……"],["林委員德福：那當初為什麼沒有把它設定好呢？對不對？你說要國產化，才會一度6.59元！"],["郭部長智輝：對，那是以前，現在情勢不一樣，因為已經進步到這個階段了，所以外國的廠商發現說，國產化對他們來講，在交易上面他們覺得……"],["林委員德福：不然的話，為什麼不公開招標，一定要躉購？躉購就是議價嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，那個是過去……"],["林委員德福：過去這個就是有弊端嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們現在改了，我來了以後就改了，改了以後就是公開……"],["林委員德福：不是他們去講，我們就配合。部長，因為這個躉購是議價，當初我認為公開招標很低，兩塊兩毛二，但是躉購，你說要國產化，結果現在又沒有辦法做，你又幫他開方便之門，講實在話，為什麼台電會虧損連連？這個不是沒有原因啊！對不對？因為電幾乎到現在都沒有辦法儲存，沒有用的話，幾乎都是流掉。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：結果你看我們冬天有東北季風，你不要用那麼多電，它一直一直轉，發了多少電，你要吸收多少；到了夏天需要大量用電的時候，結果風機不轉了，對不對？這個是在當初沒有考量到，所以現在台電一直在虧損當中，而且越來越嚴重，郭部長，我相信你應該很清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是這樣子，委員，我們現在討論的都是第3期的風電，前面剛才你所指正的躉購那個大概就是第1期、第2期……"],["林委員德福：對，1期、2期啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是我們現在是第3期，我們現在3-1、3-2就是回到自由交易的狀況，因為3-1在之前就已經開標了，那3-2是最近才開的。"],["林委員德福：郭部長，我跟你講，我當初就一直質疑，這個裡面是由現在台電的董事長曾文生來主導，而且你一主導、你開放先躉購七成，標20年，它發多少電，你一定要吸收多少，難怪台電會虧損連連啊！對不對？結果剩三成公開招標是兩塊兩毛二。但是你躉購的價錢那麼高，議價七成，剩下三成才做什麼？剩下三成才公開招標，標20年，所以台電現在一直在虧損當中，我認為這個問題很大。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在因為需要綠電，我一定要全力讓它能夠如期完工，所以我們改變了一些方法，希望在符合WTO的架構之下，能夠幫助他們降低風電的成本，讓他們產出來的價在賣給臺灣業者的時候可以比較便宜一點啦！"],["林委員德福：我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：不要像過去因為國產化導致他們的成本增加，我們現在的目的是幫助國內的廠商能夠降低成本，具有國際的競爭力，這個是我們最重要的一部分。"],["林委員德福：其實當初說要國產化，我以前問過沈榮津前部長，我問過他好幾次，講實在話，我是聽不下去啦！我認為國會議員就是要幫我們民眾發聲，你看！為什麼現在電漲了12.5%，而且又要行政院編列預算年年來補貼台電，這個不是沒有原因的，因為你廢核，廢核以後變成說要綠能，那綠能又跟不上，而且價格又那麼高，當然會有一個效應，就是變成年年要虧損，台電在以前有這麼嚴重嗎？沒有嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告一下，我們也要針對國產化的問題，對參與整個綠能發電、風機發電的國內業者表示感謝，他們也確實承擔了相當多的責任，所以我們現在分作三個部分來講，第一個是3-1的部分，我們已經照契約在走，已經是照這樣不變了。至於3-2，因為它現在牽涉到國際上的訴訟，增加了一些條件或增加了一些要求，那國內的業者也希望能夠儘速達到這樣的時程，但是如果因為國內業者接不上來，所以在時程上有延誤的話，我們可以來做一些調整，但我們還是鼓勵國內業者能夠上來。在第3期，我們除了讓大家可以公平交易之外，更希望國內業者往外走，就是剛剛部長講的增加國際競爭力、去國外發展，因為國內的市場到底有限。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，自2023年到現在政府已經編列給台電增資2,500億元，依疫後條例撥補500億，再加上在立法院即將要審查的2,000億撥補，總計台電增資以及撥補的累積金額達到5,000億。能源政策不檢討，台電虧損最後還是全民買單，大家都清清楚楚。對電價的問題，本席支持以核養綠，民進黨政府不要抱著反核意識形態的神主牌，綠能比例沒有達標，也不願意以核養綠，而拼命的燒煤，燃氣還有火力發電等就占了八成。根據台電給本席的資料，2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度是3.62元，核能每度是1.39元，3.62跟1.39，你看落差多大！如果2023年台電核能發電量跟2015年一樣是351億度，天然氣發電則可以少用一些，粗估每年可以少虧損400億，這邊再打個折，保守估計4年下來最少可以少虧損1,200億。如今電價又要上漲，人民卻要為政府錯誤的能源政策買單，人民怎麼會不生氣呢？卓院長，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，跟委員報告，走向非核家園，這個入法是在委員任內、之前通過的，這是我們的法律，這不是民進黨的神主牌，電業法裡面就是這樣寫的，要朝向非核家園，這是法律，不是神主牌。第二個，剛剛……"],["林委員德福：但是現在我們立法院很多，不管在朝在野……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是法律現在還是在的，這部法律現在還是在的。"],["林委員德福：還在？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["林委員德福：那可以改、可以修啊！你沒有提出來啊，對不對？你不能說錯誤的政策，現在核電是綠能了……"],["卓院長榮泰：在修法之前，我們現在就是多元的發展綠能，希望能夠進行科技的儲能，再來就是能夠朝向……"],["林委員德福：對啊，但是科技儲能現在還跟不上，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個正在努力當中。"],["林委員德福：郭部長，我相信你很清楚，現在還跟不上啦，科技的儲能還跟不上啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是我們在二次能源轉型當中重要的目標。"],["林委員德福：你的電沒有辦法儲，所以就流失掉，難怪每一年要虧損連連啊！你要是今天能夠儲電，那當然多少不會那麼嚴重啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：另外，剛剛委員所算出那個核能發電，即使它……"],["林委員德福：1.39元啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：即使目前成本低，但是在隱藏的核後端，它的核廢料處理成本，那個隱性的成本非常非常的大。"],["林委員德福：其實到目前為止，全世界任何國家，甚至於先進國家，他們都在發展核能，日本福島核災以後，它還是一樣，還是在發展核能啊！為什麼人家可以，我們不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果新的核能技術沒有安全的顧慮、沒有核廢料的處理，我們絕對願意積極來討論。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，根據媒體報導，英國在9月30號宣布七大工業國組織的先例，成為第一個終止燃煤發電的國家，我們燃煤是占50%，因應2050年淨零碳排的目標，世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的能源，包括核電在內。國際認可核能為綠電，國際能源總署強調，世界需要核電來減少碳排放。此外，美國和二十多個國家共同發表核能宣言，共同努力於2050年全球核能容量增加為3倍的目標。美、日、韓都大舉發展核電，難道民進黨政府的能源政策不需要做通盤性的檢討嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們目前就是優先幫臺灣出口的廠商爭取綠電，因為現在核能還不是屬於綠電，它是一個clean energy，它是一個乾淨的能源，我們現在先滿足這個綠電的需求，然後再來就趕快來滿足2050年的零碳。"],["林委員德福：我是認為以核養綠啦！你們不要……"],["郭部長智輝：兩個都是不同時間的重點。"],["林委員德福：不要一意孤行啦！以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:35","end_time":"2024-10-11T11:12:41+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155383","委員名稱":"林楚茵","duration":935,"start_time":"2024-10-11T10:57:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638a86bc29a9ef2cadb1de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdf770e63ee77b9ab1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.083468750000002,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.028468750000002,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.69909375,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.992843750000002,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.140343750000003,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.80221875,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.48909375,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.096593750000004,"end":42.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.94409375,"end":43.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.63159375,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.791593750000004,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.83346875000001,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.93034375,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.70471875000001,"end":93.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.01221875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.48471875,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.22721875,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.89721875000001,"end":100.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.91409375,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.80409375,"end":105.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.58409375000001,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.62534375000001,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.15409375000002,"end":155.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.98971875,"end":180.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.08284375000002,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.96346875,"end":190.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.49471875,"end":196.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.33346875,"end":203.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.21846875,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.63721875000002,"end":226.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.32471875000002,"end":247.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.21596875,"end":248.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.27909375000002,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.08471875,"end":250.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.06346875000003,"end":251.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.14346875,"end":253.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.93221875,"end":256.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.63221875,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.69034375,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.06534375,"end":310.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.74721875,"end":276.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.76409375000003,"end":276.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.96659375,"end":277.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.35784375000003,"end":311.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.57721875000004,"end":311.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.76284375,"end":321.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.88784375,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.82784375,"end":332.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.67096875000004,"end":342.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.99846875000003,"end":362.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.82659375000003,"end":372.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.17096875000004,"end":376.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.61346875000004,"end":376.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.73159375,"end":398.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.90534375000004,"end":402.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.71909375,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.64221875000004,"end":409.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.04284375000003,"end":444.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03"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{"start":197.489,"end":223.534,"text":"這到底有沒有解決而且全國還有多少這種處在一個關鍵的重要的軍事要塞那麼原本他可能是在照農田照一般的我們的民眾或是農民所需要的相關的回覆但是他卻照到了軍營照到了重要的基礎的關鍵的我們的重要的國防要塞部長怎麼來看這個問題院長怎麼來看這個問題"},{"start":226.431,"end":250.421,"text":"首先報告謝謝委員這麼重要的一個提醒這是絕對的疏忽我覺得這個應該立即要馬上杜絕所有現在這種現象第二以後要通令所有跟這個攝影攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門要全面的禁止要用這個例子當全面的禁止再來就針對這一件如果是農業部這個水產署是不是水利署"},{"start":252.202,"end":262.321,"text":"那我覺得部長要去了解,如果在行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話,行政的追究我覺得應該必須,而且要把它廣泛讓全國各部會通通要了解。"},{"start":262.813,"end":287.205,"text":"因為我會提這個問題就表示說他是媒體先發現然後我又在媒體上發現那顯然是負責要去監視或者是管理這個器材或是影像的人他完全沒有注意到就像我剛剛開頭所提到的這個設備他可能是透過一個網路一個APP或一個系統來做操作那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了"},{"start":287.605,"end":309.58,"text":"又或者是密碼設置的太簡單,因為很容易我們的原始密碼就是8088812345678,那麼這個會不會是整體的包括現在農業部底下,農田署、農水署所有的這樣的鏡頭都也有面臨系統密碼設置不安全,或者是太容易被破解的狀況。"},{"start":312.144,"end":332.362,"text":"我跟委員報告就是當事件發生的時候我們做了兩件事情第一件事情我要求他們清查所有的原來在監控水路的峻路的這些攝影機如果他的周遭有一些敏感的這些區域的話那個攝影機應該立即拆除因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門他們去做內部使用的一個控管"},{"start":332.842,"end":361.881,"text":"那第二個部分就是他們整個攝影機本身的後台他是一個內部的網路就是供內部這些漲水工來使用的那後續我也會他們叫他們來根據我們的那個自動安全的一個管理面跟人員的訓練做一個加強我們希望說就算內部的漲水工在使用的時候包括你的帳號密碼或相關的跟資訊安全有關的話一定要確實落實定期的去更換密碼"},{"start":363.022,"end":372.549,"text":"不要用最簡單的一個密碼很容易讓人家去使用這個部分我想我們會立刻的已經在要求了然後他們有提一些相關的報告我們再做進一步的處理"},{"start":373.386,"end":401.811,"text":"我要提醒的就是即使他照的是農田是有關於灌溉的整體的狀況來做一些防災或是防旱這樣的一個監視但是同樣的我認為這整體的精力一共發了15天而且相關的部會並沒有積極想要處理是因為本席不斷的透過辦公室追蹤然後才追到這樣的一個結果所以我還是希望雖然說農業部面對國安問題可能不是第一線但是"},{"start":402.771,"end":425.352,"text":"面對這樣的事情是不可以有任何的怠慢,也應該要積極的來面對跟處理好嗎?會,我們一定會這樣做。好,另外一個跟國安議題相關的就是有關於電動,中國的電動車是不是會是木馬屠城的威脅喔?那麼對於台灣來講我們到底有沒有危機意識?我想本席找了這些報導,不論是美國、澳洲或者是英國,"},{"start":425.973,"end":425.993,"text":"三、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":446.443,"end":472.171,"text":"的網絡去做第三地甚至於境外的一個操控所以這也是為什麼其實現在許多的國家都認為中國的電動車充滿了木馬屠城的危害但是本席發現的就是其實不只是中國的電動汽車或是自用的汽車現在是不是中國製的公車其實也在全台的北中南到處趴趴走那我們知道其實"},{"start":473.564,"end":498.804,"text":"大眾捷運系統的部分公車也算是一個關鍵技術所以我要先問一下院長或是部長就是當中國的電動車現在遍佈全台那我們該如何來處理因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定的中國車產的定義就是中國大陸的品牌嘛然後陸資跟國際品牌合資或者是中國的資金跟國際品牌來做合資"},{"start":499.545,"end":499.605,"text":"﹚林楚茵"},{"start":514.565,"end":514.585,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":529.642,"end":547.438,"text":"大眾的關鍵的運輸系統也是關鍵基礎設施的時候那這兩者之間我們到底如何守住國安然後在國內又能夠達到淨零碳排電動車的好處那這兩者之間如何取捨 院長"},{"start":548.758,"end":575.973,"text":"報告委員我想經濟部在今年7月已經有提出來提升國產化汽車的自治率這樣的一個規範那麼要求國產汽車的自治率門檻要逐年提高那這個比例是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算防止他國的低價產品來傾銷台灣那麼這也是各國的這個政策的趨勢這是第一個第二個呢您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題"},{"start":577.213,"end":597.946,"text":"對那麼這個怕這個車聯網那我們現在目前對汽車的這個電腦跟軟體啊雖然沒有進行這個管制但是我們有透過在地化比率的來要求那麼在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件將如何管制資訊安全的整這個規範來控制它"},{"start":599.867,"end":621.099,"text":"所以目前有從中國進來的中華汽車、山陽汽車、福特汽車他們都表示他們的軟體並不會主動聯網而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作所以目前委員所擔心資安這個問題應該是不存在的"},{"start":621.809,"end":623.27,"text":"這個我們這個會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬"},{"start":651.71,"end":680.737,"text":"然後跟這個委員做一個詳細的報告好,因為這個事情它已經存在了我知道已經在各個地方政府上路的公車那麼到底有沒有資安一律也許必須要去重視它你第一時間你說要完全的才剛上路又要它不能走也不太可能但是就像我們講到的這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網有沒有可能成為境外可以操控的所謂木馬塗層器的不定時炸彈因為我們知道"},{"start":681.397,"end":684.019,"text":"是,我們馬上回去以後,馬上來這個盤查一下,然後把這個結論來跟委員做報告。"},{"start":707.555,"end":730.747,"text":"那麼另外當然就是我們提到的,如果歐美各國對於中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候,那麼接下來後續呢?我們不能說自用車不能中國電動車,中國產的中國車,中國品牌不能進來,但是中國製的公車的電動車在我們全國的境內跑,這會不會是開了另外一扇小門?"},{"start":736.132,"end":749.767,"text":"三點跟委員報告第一個燃油車我們要求自治率是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件的產業希望不要受到衝擊那麼在電動車的方面我們是要求的更多是因為他的資安穩定"},{"start":751.826,"end":765.654,"text":"甚至他的低價傾銷那這個是現在國際的潮流也針對這個事情來處理的那電動車有兩個已經進來的部分剛剛部長講的我們會加強從內部的管理他的這個物聯網能不能就有效的評斷這個要處理"},{"start":767.555,"end":782.22,"text":"再來新要進來的我們會對於電池的要求特別特別的嚴厲因為在世界上闡說太多電池發生燃爆等等不應該的有個安全狀況我們會在這裡做處理這樣處理的話對未來的我們會加嚴來管制已經進來的就部長剛剛說的我們從內部會加嚴來管控"},{"start":786.82,"end":808.527,"text":"好謝謝這個院長這麼清晰的一個方向跟說明喔這個對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾藝術系統也放進去這個對於全民的安全是非常重要的最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的也是跟電動車相關那就是當我們有要求就像部長所說的像院長所提的我們有國產車的自治率之後那麼關於車用電腦或者是軟體我們要怎麼樣做規範喔因為"},{"start":812.088,"end":819.133,"text":"在這個零組件的部分其實中國還是我們最大的零組件的進口高達了百分之三十三"},{"start":821.209,"end":844.881,"text":"金額更是到7月累積了235.9億元喔 那麼很多時候是車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製必須要有零組件的進口可是如果當整個中國成為我們重要的汽車零組件進口的大方向或者是說相關的重要的關鍵技術的時候我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":845.701,"end":871.154,"text":"面對這樣一個狀況,院長這邊跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法是可以降低對於中國林組件的依賴?我們現在是有,對這些林組件我們要求他漸漸的提高擴廠化的標準。那國內的廠商因為這個量的問題,所以他們對開這個模具會有一些抗拒。"},{"start":871.914,"end":887.899,"text":"不過我們現在正式的告訴他們這個就是一個政策希望這個業者能夠同意那最近的溝通的這個結果他們也願意所以這個我想在未來我們這個會從中國進來的這個林組建會越來越少甚至一次臨"},{"start":888.992,"end":906.258,"text":"尤其是像電腦或者是聯網相關的系統啊藍牙喇叭等等這個都要非常注意這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係我們不容許太多資安問題進來那我們也有一些零件去到中國大陸雙邊一定要在平等的架構底下來互通連交流"},{"start":906.786,"end":906.806,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:57:06 - 11:12:41","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155383","gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時57分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：院長好。很開心可以在這邊首次來質詢您，在提問之前，我想問一個比較輕鬆的，您在家裡有養寵物嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：以前有。"],["林委員楚茵：你知道現在的科技已經進步到就是一些飼養所謂毛小孩的飼主，他們擔心毛小孩在家裡沒有人照顧，就會用一個所謂的監視器來監看這些毛小孩在家裡的狀況。通常這樣的app都是設定好的，為了怕雇主忘記，它會有個預設的密碼，可能就是「1234」或「000」，這個就是為了方便雇主，如果雇主要重新使用或是忘記了，他就可以直接以此來做使用。但是這個是在一般的家庭裡面，如果監視器是放在公開場域的話，就算是一個我們已經買進來的app，它有一些迴路、使用等等，它的密碼其實都要常常去異動，這樣才安全，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，一般個人的使用，可能求的是方便，但是牽扯到公共事務的，應該在強烈的資安要求下，要達到安全，而且是要絕對的安全。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我會開這個頭的原因，就是因為我要請院長看一下螢幕，這是今年9月5號媒體沃草透過社群平臺所公布的照片，當時我第一時間發現之後，就來詢問國防部怎麼會有一個攝影鏡頭居然是對準了我們營區的外面，而且這個影像竟然是上網就可以看得到！當時我詢問國防部，國防部告訴我說，委員，你誤會了，這其實不是國防部的，其實是我們農業部底下相關監查農水路測試的鏡頭，可是這個鏡頭居然被轉向了，轉向原因不明。經過我們了解之後，國防部第一時間的回復是，他們找到了這個營區，而且馬上就把它遮蔽，避免該營區的操勤、出缺勤被外洩。","但是重點來了，在9月5號媒體報導之前，到底曝光了多久？還有就是有多少我們不知道的鏡頭，在這樣的狀況底下轉向了一些關鍵跟敏感的地方？","本席為什麼在今天（10月11日）還會特別提出來，是因為本席在請農業部相關單位做了解時，整本的完整報告居然是10月7日才給我！為什麼這樣的畫面會被取得？而且可以直接被媒體擷取？這問題到底有沒有解決？全國還有多少這種關鍵的、重要的軍事要塞，原本鏡頭可能是在照農田、照一般民眾或是農業所需，但卻照到了軍營，照到了重要的基礎關鍵設施，照到了我們重要的國防要塞？部長，你怎麼來看這問題？院長怎麼來看這問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先報告，謝謝委員這麼重要的提醒，這是絕對的疏忽，我覺得應該要立即、馬上杜絕現在所有這種現象。第二，以後要通令所有跟攝影鏡頭有關的各個部門全面禁止，要以這個例子來全面禁止。再來，針對這一件，如果是農業部水產署……"],["陳部長駿季：農田水利署。"],["林委員楚茵：農水署。"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得部長要去了解，如果行政上有這麼輕忽的過程的話，我覺得必須行政追究，而且要廣泛讓全國及各部會通通了解。"],["林委員楚茵：我會提這個問題就表示這是媒體先發現的，然後我又在媒體上發現，顯然負責監視或管理這個器材、影像的人完全沒有注意到！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員楚茵：就像我剛剛開頭所提到的，這個設備可能是透過網路、app或系統來操作，那麼是不是系統操作的密碼被破解了？又或是密碼設置得太簡單？因為原始密碼就是8個0或888、12345678，這會不會是整體的，包括農業部底下農水署所有的鏡頭都面臨系統密碼設置不安全，或者是太容易被破解的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，當事件發生時，我們做了兩件事情：第一件事情，我要求他們清查所有原來在監控水路、圳路的攝影機，如果周遭有一些敏感區域的話，那麼該攝影機應立即拆除，因為最主要的攝影機是針對水閘門，由他們去做內部使用的控管。第二個部分就是，攝影機的後臺是一個內部網路，供內部掌水工使用，後續我也會要求他們根據資通安全就管理面跟人員訓練做加強，就算是內部掌水工在使用，包括帳號、密碼或跟資訊安全有關的，我希望一定要確實落實，並定期更換密碼，不要用最簡單的密碼，否則會很容易被人家使用。這部分我們已經在要求了，他們也有提一些相關報告，我們會再做進一步處理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我要提醒的就是，即使照的是農田，與灌溉整體狀況有關，以作為防災或防旱的監視。但這件事一共經歷了15天，而且相關部會並沒有積極想處理，是因為本席不斷透過辦公室追蹤，才追到這樣一個結果。雖然面對國安問題，農業部可能不是第一線，但面對這樣的事情，我希望不可以有任何怠慢，也應該要積極地面對跟處理，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們一定會這樣做。"],["林委員楚茵：另外一個跟國安議題相關的，就是有關中國電動車會不會是木馬屠城的威脅？對臺灣來講，我們到底有沒有危機意識？本席找了這些報導發現，不論是美國、澳洲或英國，現在都把中國電動車視為木馬屠城，這是非常可怕的。我們知道電動車有很多零組件，包括藍牙耳機或現在的自動駕駛等等，都可以經過網路上衛星之後，可以從其他周邊的網絡去做第三地甚至境外操控。這也是為什麼現在許多國家都認為，中國電動車充滿木馬屠城的危害！","但是本席發現不只是中國的電動汽車或自用汽車，現在中國製的公車其實也在全臺北中南到處趴趴走。我們知道大眾捷運系統的部分，公車也算是一個關鍵設施，所以我要先問院長或部長，當中國電動車現在遍布全臺，我們應該如何處理？因為我們都知道經濟部現在界定「中國車款」的定義就是中國大陸的品牌、陸資跟國際品牌合資、中國的資金跟國際品牌合資，或者是品牌在中國工廠生產，這些我們都認為是中國車款。如果是這樣的話，面對現在我們有許多公車，甚至於就是中國的品牌比亞迪，我們該如何面對這種強調節能減碳的中國電動車公車現在已經在臺灣滿街跑？如果公車也算是交通部訂定的大眾關鍵運輸系統，也是關鍵基礎設施的時候，在這兩者之間，我們到底如何守住國安，在國內又能達到淨零碳排電動車的好處？這兩者之間如何取捨？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想經濟部在今年7月已經提出提升國產化汽車自製率的規範，要求國產汽車自製率門檻要逐年提高，這個比率是以汽車生產的成本結構來計算，防止他國的低價產品傾銷臺灣，這也是各國政策的趨勢，這是第一個。","第二個，您可能比較擔心的是資安的問題……"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["郭部長智輝：這個怕車聯網。我們雖然目前對汽車的電腦跟軟體沒有進行管制，但是我們有透過在地化比率來要求，在承諾書說明若使用內含大陸製晶片的零件，將如何管制資訊安全等規範來控制它，所以目前從中國進來的中華汽車、三陽汽車、福特汽車都表示他們的軟體並不會主動連網，而且相關的資料中心在臺灣都是獨立建置跟運作，所以目前委員所擔心的資安問題應該是不存在的。那我們……"],["林委員楚茵：所以部長的言下之意是說，現在我們的公車部分，我現在問的是公車，尤其是中國製的公車，包括中國品牌比亞迪的公車在全臺北中南都有上路的情況下，真的是確定它們是中國製的電動車，而且是中國品牌，但是沒有資安疑慮，有進行過清查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們會馬上在內部來做討論跟研擬，然後跟委員做一個詳細的報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為這個事情已經存在了，對於已經在各個地方政府上路的公車到底有沒有資安疑慮，也許必須要去重視它，你第一時間說要完全的，畢竟才剛上路，要它不能走也不太可能，但是就像我們所講到的，這些中國製的電動車有沒有車聯網？有沒有可能成為在境外就可以操控的所謂木馬屠城記的不定時炸彈？我們知道真主黨的BB Call可以跨境爆炸，連BB Call都可以爆炸的時候，那麼一台大型的公共汽車在路上走，確實是有危險的可能，所以部長有承諾現在要重新盤整，會去做瞭解跟清查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們回去以後馬上來盤查一下，然後把結論跟委員做報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，另外當然就是我們提到的，如果歐美各國規定中國製的電動車都不能上路的時候，接下來後續呢？我們不能說自用車不能是中國電動車，中國產的中國車、中國品牌不能進來，但是中國製的公車電動車在我們全國的境內跑，這會不會開了另外一扇小門？後續又要如何處理？是不是行政院也可以研議？"],["卓院長榮泰：三點跟委員報告，第一個，燃油車我們要求自製率，是保護國內的汽車產業跟零組件產業，希望不要受到衝擊，那麼在電動車方面，我們要求得更多，是因為它的資安、穩定，甚至低價傾銷，現在國際潮流也針對這個事情在做處理了。電動車有兩方面，已經進來的部分，誠如剛剛部長所講的，我們會加強內部管理，它的物聯網能不能有效屏斷，這個要處理。再來是新進來的部分，我們會對電池的要求特別特別嚴厲，因為世界上有太多電池發生燃爆等等不該有的安全狀況，我們會在這裡做處理。也就是說，這樣處理的話，對未來的我們會加嚴管制，對於已經進來的，就是部長剛剛說的，我們從內部會加嚴來管控。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝院長這麼清晰的方向跟說明，對於我們所謂的基礎關鍵設施把大眾運輸系統也放進去，這對全民的安全真的非常重要。","最後一個問題也是本席最近發現的，也是跟電動車相關，那就是當我們有要求，就像部長所說的、像院長所提到的，我們有國產車自製率之後，關於車用電腦跟軟體要怎麼規範？因為在零組件的部分，中國其實還是我們最大的零組件進口，高達了32%、33%，金額到7月更是累計了235.9億元，很多時候車子不可能百分之百都是國產自製，必須要有零組件進口，可是當整個中國成為我們重要汽車零組件進口大方向或是相關重要關鍵技術的時候，我們該怎麼辦？面對這樣的狀況，院長跟部長這邊有沒有一個更通盤的想法可以降低對中國零組件的依賴？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是有，對這些零組件，我們要求要漸漸提高國產化的標準，國內廠商因為量的問題，所以他們對於開模具會有一些抗拒，不過我們現在正式告訴他們，這個就是政策，希望業者能夠同意，最近的溝通結果是他們也願意，所以我想未來我們從中國進來的零組件會越來越少，甚至於是零。"],["林委員楚茵：好，尤其是像電腦或連網相關系統、藍牙喇叭等等，這個都要非常注意。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個會加強雙邊驗證的關係，我們不容許太多資安問題進來，我們也有些零件去到中國大陸，雙邊一定要在平等的架構之下來互通與交流。"],["林委員楚茵：好。最後一個就是當我們在關注零組件的時候，很有可能上有政策下有對策，就是這些零組件乾脆直接到第三地去，譬如泰國或其他地方洗產地，有關於洗產地部分，事實上我也希望行政院跟經濟部能夠來關注這樣的話題，不要到最後我們沒有進口了，但變成整台從第三地進來的中國車。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，這個我們會列入考慮。謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:31","end_time":"2024-10-11T10:56:58+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155382","委員名稱":"柯志恩","duration":931,"start_time":"2024-10-11T10:41:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638f4b44603b3f306d71de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdf1bdc68558a6b1c425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.607843750000001,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.09971875,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.356593750000002,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.47471875,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.33534375,"end":24.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.18721875,"end":33.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.245968750000003,"end":31.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.50284375,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.32534375,"end":36.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.494093750000005,"end":34.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.91971875,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.525968750000004,"end":48.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.610343750000006,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.12034375,"end":54.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.908468750000004,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.07534375,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.00971875,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.02534375,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.18971875000001,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.95659375000001,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.68909375000001,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.96659375000002,"end":149.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.41284375,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.24534375000002,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.42596875,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.52221875,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.70346875,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.50909375,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.16346875000002,"end":208.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.34846875000002,"end":213.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.35221875000002,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.66846875000002,"end":217.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.46534375000002,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.13596875000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.94159375,"end":223.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.55721875,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.63721875000002,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.82159375,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.47846875000002,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.73034375,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.13034375,"end":2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總統跟我在憲法的質詢上的分工是非常清楚明確而且我們也是這樣在進行的那這一次跟韓院長之間是我們那一天我們兩人自己互相的約定我想如果不用動到憲法的層級我們可以在兩院之間來"},{"start":108.763,"end":124.205,"text":"我們也期待啦,而且院長你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大啦,彼此各退一步的話,我們就可以好好把這總預算送到委員會裡面好好來去做,所以我們對於今天的和解,其實不要只是大拜拜式的,每個人都派出來,然後氣氛氛圍非常的好,但是最具體,"},{"start":125.046,"end":125.687,"text":"謝謝委員,我也希望在"},{"start":143.43,"end":171.221,"text":"法律的原則性問題能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後,我們就能夠順利往後走。我們期待,我們期待,否則的話就是無解。好,我們來看看我們這個碳費。現在目前的碳費已經拍板了,大概就是每公噸300元,但是這個不管是經濟部、產業界或是環團,其實都是非常的不滿意的。而且我知道經濟部長是公開表示相當的遺憾。我們要經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿這個環境部還是對行政院表達深度的遺憾?"},{"start":172.752,"end":194.856,"text":"報告委員,我想這個碳費的部分,我們還是,因為企業是我們在照顧的,那環境部他有維護這個整體國家的這個立場。我完全同意,部長我知道,我完全知道產業上那個需求,所以我想問一下這個院長,你們之間到底有沒有溝通過,經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過,感覺起來好像是要在黨內互打的概念,而且我現在要先確定一下,"},{"start":195.416,"end":223.598,"text":"大家最關切的是你會把這個碳費轉嫁到我們這個所謂的消費者的身上造成所謂的綠色通膨其實這是大家比較關切的是的委員當然經過數次的溝通兩個部會跟其他相關部會跟我本人我們都參加過經濟部長深度遺憾如果今天我們訂出來一個標準經濟部完全叫好那我覺得環境部那邊就會造成很大的壓力所以你比較支持經濟部還是比較支持環境部"},{"start":224.719,"end":224.859,"text":"三百塊"},{"start":245.942,"end":260.911,"text":"一頓但是你如果有一些優惠自主排碳的話可以50也可以有100我們就這樣算這個range好的如果說是平均來說一頓大概是100塊人的話都幾乎要繳到7到8億升到百億的這樣子的碳費那你如何保證這是我們比較關切的"},{"start":261.992,"end":285.078,"text":"這些東西到底會不會轉嫁﹖包括中油﹖他其實也很想爭取把這個篡費的公式放到他們這樣的一個公式裡面﹖更不要說臺電也想比照這個水費的收費一樣有代收的方法﹖這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中﹖所以院長你可不可以保證到目前為止﹖永續不用再講了大家都同意世界的趨勢﹖會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔﹖"},{"start":286.294,"end":306.905,"text":"委員我們常常關心世界永續的問題,我們每個人多多少少付出一點的責任是要的。 一點點的責任到底有多少,其實我們還是要關切一下,你看目前為止商桌就做出一個大的一個非常嚴謹的一個報告,他說碳費會帶動中南部的房價,我跟你說你現在先擔保也買房,"},{"start":308.646,"end":329.061,"text":"太多人會告訴你這叫碳肺保底的概念,因為營建的成本未來會提高,最近你看不到,可是他告訴你3、5年之後,因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會起底,所以目前為止已經漲到不行了,除了台積電效應之外,碳肺保底的概念已經變成我們現在買房子裡面,大家來說服大家了。"},{"start":329.521,"end":355.323,"text":"我會明確注意這個事情,產業的發展跟所受的衝擊,部長來答覆。報告委員,我想這一部分經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化,我們大概都有一個小組,不斷地觀察指數的變異,然後我們會有一些方法,那碳稅的部分,我們跟環境部是在討論,這個是在未來,他現在目前提出這樣100塊,"},{"start":357.265,"end":372.66,"text":"我現在只要提醒部長我們希望大家能夠檢探我告訴你這沒有問題但是預期的心理已經產生了所以你看對於這個房市的影響你們村裡已經對這個新清安的風暴已經可以請很多的大佬來喝咖啡了你這個碳費的部分"},{"start":374.642,"end":374.802,"text":"主席"},{"start":391.212,"end":409.066,"text":"但是很顯然的很多的亂象還是存在的,我想兩位在這邊應該看出來,包括碳的鏈財,告訴你現在有非常多的班開班授課告訴大家如何可以通過一套的方法讓這個企業可以少甚至不要,還有第二個,很多最重要的是認證的部分。"},{"start":409.366,"end":410.427,"text":"三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":425.478,"end":426.359,"text":"現在看到沒有?"},{"start":454.055,"end":471.675,"text":"報告委員 因為環境部也是去年才成立 那麼我們現在經濟部我們上來以後我們在不斷的在討論 那我們希望說明年能夠提出來 就像您剛才所指正的經濟部標準局現在也不斷的在討論這樣的一個標準 是啦 對 部長我這樣已經特別解體了"},{"start":474.498,"end":492.727,"text":"我剛前提的環境部是去年才成立的可是這就告訴打臉我們過去我們過去8年是民進黨執政不是你們但是過去這些都是知道要做的到目前為止才輪到你們身上然後才告訴我去年成立而且還有很重要的我看不清楚像這個院長你知道我們探權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎上次有講過我現在我看在我你的家裡對啊你對"},{"start":501.052,"end":526.744,"text":"你高雄啦,拜託,每天去高雄看一看好不好。但是呢,他安全教育所設在高雄,是在前鎮,但是你知道成立一年多了,院長成立一年多,這很重要喔。但是呢,成立一年多,現在馬上被詐騙集團動用總經理的照片跟資料,而且用AI身為的合成照片裡面,在社群裡面,來販賣廣發金融商品跟投資的訊息,你說對不對?"},{"start":528.124,"end":547.231,"text":"委員長,探權交易才成立一年多,很符合現代的潮流,李國雄,我告訴你,行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團,你們的速度要比上詐騙集團,他比你更了解,一年多來,他就已經不斷用這個方法來去做這樣一個處理,所以這個東西是很嚴重的,院長你不覺得嗎?"},{"start":548.311,"end":565.265,"text":"是,詐騙的問題我們一步一步來處理,柯委員報告我們是去年才曾通過這個氣候變遷的相關法令,現在環境部在9月份才公布了三個執法,所以他們一步一步的來處理,並不是說我們過去不作為,是現在到了我們必須"},{"start":566.706,"end":589.186,"text":"我還是覺得效率是晚了一些 連詐騙都知道要用我們的探權交易來做詐騙 這個我們馬上處理而且很重要的 我說我覺得經濟部長不能只是聲表遺憾 我知道你很遺憾 因為你站在這個產業的這一方嘛 一定會知道會造成經濟的一些的影響嘛 但是我覺得這還是要辦法 而且最重要是碳費"},{"start":590.367,"end":591.988,"text":"要怎麼分配?"},{"start":591.988,"end":609.576,"text":"我說是知道的,真的要去高雄說幾句話,高雄現在是三高,碳排高、污染高、碳被攪的高,所以我們現在很擔心什麼?費用攪了這麼多,到時候總部都不在我們高雄住在台北,污染給我們吸,然後錢攪到台北,這樣可不可以?"},{"start":610.817,"end":631,"text":"以後這個部分你要怎麼解決?這跟我們得利?報告委員,我們現在針對這個命題,這麼大的一個命題,我們提出一個可以改變的方法。也就是說我進來以後,我提出來一個境外觀內的這樣的一個概念。我們幫助台灣所謂用電、碳排高比較大的產業往外移走。"},{"start":632.06,"end":656.135,"text":"對,這個是我們希望透過政府的力量,然後替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。對,因為美國也常說這個部分嘛,你把這個碳費收完之後,你為了要活絡地方的產業經濟,你有一套配套的做法嘛,這是我今天特別要提出來嘛,特別到高雄,你到底我們繳了這麼多費用,而且你看嘛,這個目前來說,你們也宣布要用三大綠色基金,院長我恭喜你,我看你的綠色基金,我怕了,你看,100億的綠色成長基金,"},{"start":658.817,"end":674.634,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":679.859,"end":697.389,"text":"委員,我們跟你報告一下,您剛剛所指教的這三個領域,我們都可以再處理。我們會把高雄它原來產生碳高的地方、電高的地方,把它移到其他的地區,讓高雄在原來的地方可以高質化,做一些"},{"start":699.111,"end":701.353,"text":"二零二二年竟然比二零二一年的碳排還要增加4.6%拜託"},{"start":728.971,"end":744.095,"text":"股尼真的是已經做了這樣的處理了。 碳排還是要增加。 所以說我說實在的,這是不是有辦法透過徵收這個碳費來讓我們環境更加永續。 這個數字會說謊。 院長、部長,對吧?"},{"start":744.095,"end":751.898,"text":"所以說以價質量、經濟效果,剛剛真的有把這個碳排的這個大戶就因此要怎麼處置。 這也是個大的課題喔,對吧?"},{"start":753.818,"end":780.938,"text":"所以這樣我們更需要來協助、輔導、要求他們能夠...你不要到時候到了2024比2023的碳排又更高能夠達到的自儲減量的這個產業他才能夠用優惠的碳排所以我就是告訴你數字嘛用了這些東西到時候你看碳排量還是很高像技術又怎麼樣發達最後的時間真的很有限啦我確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛因為郭部長當開始的時候6月你就說你不贊成波普但是你們的行政院發言人馬上幫你講說這1000億"},{"start":783.18,"end":784.901,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":809.514,"end":816.346,"text":"如果說我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持,然後我們可以改善"},{"start":818.884,"end":838.191,"text":"臺電的這個財務我相信我們現在因為這個材料材料原材料的這個價格看起來已經到了高點我們現在購電量是比較高但是我們的那個整個材料費是降低的你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭完之後是完全往下降我會要求臺電的這個管理"},{"start":839.231,"end":853.183,"text":"能夠精進所以那個院長有要求我兩年以兩年內如果這個臺電不能夠正向得了這個補助然後兩年內你還要漲價那可能就是我告別的時候"},{"start":854.991,"end":855.632,"text":"發言委員：柯志恩"},{"start":875.194,"end":877.237,"text":"我們的補助對我們的民生物價的穩定有非常正向的成效。"},{"start":891.072,"end":912.557,"text":"還有拿4500萬去做宣傳費用告訴大家臺電是多麼需要大家的補助我講實在的現在花了4500萬在做宣傳啊遠不如好好來處理一下到底整個管理的機制是怎麼樣好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來給關關我們的臺電最後一個問題每次賬戶不能超過3%好不好但是現在賬戶嘛不是11就是12.5%我覺得你那個3%都是頂多的"},{"start":916.118,"end":916.198,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:41:27 - 10:56:58","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155382","gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時41分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請卓院長？"],["主席：好，卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，聽說你明天要來高雄了？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["柯委員志恩：等很久了。"],["卓院長榮泰：很抱歉，因為上禮拜確實是時間……"],["柯委員志恩：等很久了，一個禮拜了，所以補助拿多一點過來啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我上禮拜也是在其他地方，我並沒有怠慢，請委員諒解。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我想說今天中午大家比較關切就是要吃一個所謂的和解飯，你對這次和解飯的信心到底有多少？你覺得可以解決我們目前預算卡關的問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要對國家未來有信心，任何一次的接觸，我們都要深具信心。"],["柯委員志恩：大家本來都是這樣期待的，而且我記得你要來當閣揆的時候，大家最期望就是你過去調和鼎鼐的功夫非常好，可是這次發現你好像態度越來越強硬。我比較好奇的是你背後的賴總統，說實在的，一般來說，根據憲法第四十四條的規定，當院跟院之間有任何沒有辦法解決、有爭執的時候，其實總統應該站出來做一個協調。所以我們只能說，到底對於這次和解飯，我們的總統有沒有為你開綠燈，還是他對這次的和解有沒有什麼樣的一個想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，總統跟我在憲法職權上的分工非常清楚、明確，而且我們也是這樣在進行的。這一次跟韓院長之間是那一天我們兩個人自己互相的約定，我想如果不用動到憲法的層級，我們可以在兩院之間來協調……"],["柯委員志恩：我們也期待啦！而且院長，你也知道這個問題癥結其實沒有那麼大，彼此各退一步的話，我們就可以把總預算送到委員會裡面好好來審查，所以我們對於今天的和解其實不要只是大拜拜性的，每個人都派出來，然後氣氛、氛圍非常的好，但是最具體，特別是對於我們所謂的已經三讀通過，而且說實在的金額不太多的狀況之下，彼此能夠做出一個可以的溝通，我覺得這是設立一個非常好的典範，否則未來朝野真是永無寧日，這是我們大家對你很大的一個期許。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我也希望在法律的原則性問題，能夠得到大家互相的尊重跟理解之後，我們就能夠順利往下走。"],["柯委員志恩：我們期待，否則的話就是無解。","好，我們來看看碳費。現在碳費已經拍板了，大概就是每公噸300元，但是不管經濟部、產業界或是環團，其實都是非常不滿意的，而且我也知道經濟部長公開表示相當的遺憾，我不知道經濟部表達遺憾的是不滿環境部，還是對於行政院表達深度的遺憾？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想碳費的部分我們還是……因為企業是我們在照顧……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是啦！"],["郭部長智輝：環境部有維護整體國家的立場……"],["柯委員志恩：我完全同意，部長，我完全知道產業這樣的需求，所以我想問一下院長，你們之間到底有沒有溝通過，經濟部跟環境部有沒有溝通過？感覺起來好像是在黨內互打的概念，而且我現在先確定一下，大家最關心的是，你會不會把碳費轉嫁到我們消費者的身上，造成所謂的綠色通膨？其實這是大家比較關切的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，委員，當然經過數次的溝通，兩個部會跟其他相關部會還有我本人，我們都參加過相當……"],["柯委員志恩：那你的經濟部長說深度遺憾，是在講什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，如果今天我們訂出來一個標準，經濟部完全叫好，我覺得環境部那邊就遭受很大的壓力。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你比較支持經濟部，還是比較支持環境部？"],["卓院長榮泰：事實上，就目前對產業衝擊面能夠縮小，但是我們對於碳費的制度是我們對環境的付出，我們要將它平衡。"],["柯委員志恩：環境的永續很重要，但是有幾個數字還是要讓院長知道一下。你看，我們目前來說像台電、中鋼、中油都是屬於碳排超過2.5萬噸的碳排大戶。你看嘛，300塊1噸，但是如果有一些優惠，自主排碳的話可以50也可以100，我們就算這個range好了，如果說是以平均來說，1噸大概是100塊的話，都幾乎要繳到7到8億，甚至百億這樣子的碳費喔！你如何保證，這是我們比較關切的，這些東西到底會不會轉嫁？包括中油其實也很想爭取把碳費放到他們油價公式的因子裡面，更不要說台電也想比照水費的收費一樣用代收的方法，這些就是一點一滴藏在細節當中。所以院長，你可不可以保證，到目前為止永續不用再講了，大家都同意是世界的趨勢，會不會轉嫁要由全民來負擔？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們常常關心世界永續的問題，我們每個人多多少少……"],["柯委員志恩：會不會有全民要負擔的？"],["卓院長榮泰：付出一點點的責任是要的。"],["柯委員志恩：一點點的責任到底有多少？其實我們還是要來關切一下。你看目前為止，商周就做出一個很大的、非常嚴謹的報告，它說碳費會帶動中南部的房價。我跟你說，你現在去南部買房子，太多人會告訴你這叫「碳費保底」的概念，他跟你說因為營建的成本未來會提高，最近你看不到，可是他告訴你在3、5年之後，因為這個部分太多的元素之後一定會漲價，所以目前為止已經漲到不行了。除了台積電效應之外，「碳費保底」的概念已經變成我們現在買房子時被拿來說服大家的說法，所以你有辦法……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們密切注意這個事情，產業的發展跟它所受的衝擊，部長來答復。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分，經濟部是不斷地在看這些變化，我們都有一個小組，不斷地觀察所謂指數的變異，然後我們會有一些方法。至於碳費的部分，我們跟環境部在討論，這個是在未來，它目前提出100塊，但是我想這個主要是為了因應歐洲……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在只要提醒部長，這已經……"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望大家能夠減碳。"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴你，這沒有問題，但是預期的心理已經產生了，所以你看對於房市的影響，你們除了對新青安的風暴已經請很多大老來喝咖啡，關於碳費的部分，恐怕你要啟動另外一波，否則這個因應的作為，我告訴你，現在已經造成非常大的影響。","還有，我還要特別提出來，這個徵收到底有沒有一個配套？雖然你們都是520才上任，但是民進黨已經執政了過去8年，你們也認為環境永續都是過去一貫的目標，但是很顯然很多的亂象還是存在的。我想兩位站在這邊應該看得出來，包括碳的「斂財」，告訴你，現在有非常多開班授課，告訴大家如何可以透過一套方法，讓企業可以少，甚至不要。第二個，最重要的是認證的部分，很多下游廠商很怕自己買到的低碳產品到底有沒有符合這個規定？有沒有第三方認證？到底會不會買錯？這個部分也看不到任何方法。還有一個很重要的「碳洩漏」，這名詞我覺得有點不太好，我覺得應該改名叫做「碳破口」，就是很多人從國外進口不需要收碳費，但是我們臺灣需要，這就是經濟部長你過去可能已經預估到的，會讓很多甚至水泥業等等之類的造成非常大衝擊。很多國內的傳統產業，因為要被徵收這麼多的碳費，會造成一些產業的出走，所以這些部分裡面，大家就問你到底要不要推動臺版的CBAM，就像歐洲的邊境調整機制，目前沒有看到，這都是我們所謂的配套措施，現在看不到，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為環境部也是去年才成立，而現在經濟部，我們上來以後不斷地在討論，我們希望說明年能夠提出來，就像你剛才所指正的，經濟部標準局現在也不斷地在討論這樣的一個標準跟規範……"],["柯委員志恩：是啦，部長，我剛剛已經有特別前提了……"],["郭部長智輝：然後來服務我們國人。"],["柯委員志恩：環境部是去年才成立的，可是這就打臉過去，過去8年是民進黨執政，雖然不是你們，但是過去這些都是知道要做的，到目前為止輪到你們身上，然後告訴我去年才成立！而且還有很重要的，我可不可以請問一下院長，你知道我們碳權交易所目前總部設在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：上次有講過，我現在……"],["柯委員志恩：看到我你就知道設在哪裡了。在哪裡？在高雄啦！拜託一下，可以去看一下好嗎？","碳權交易所設在高雄前鎮，但是你知道它成立一年多了，院長，它成立一年多了，這很重要喔！成立一年多，現在卻被詐騙集團盜用總經理的照片跟資料，而且用AI深偽的合成照片在社群裡面販賣、廣發金融商品跟投資訊息，你說這樣對嗎？院長，碳權交易所才成立一年多，很符合現在的潮流，它在高雄，我講實在的，行政院的效率應該要比上詐騙集團，你們的速度要比上詐騙集團啦！他們比你們更瞭解，一年多以來，他們就已經不斷在用這個方法去做這樣的處理。這個東西是很嚴重的耶！院長，你不覺得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，詐騙的問題，我們會進一步處理。跟委員報告，我們去年才通過氣候變遷的相關法令，環境部在9月份才公布了3個子法，所以他們會一步一步的來處理，並不是說我們過去不作為，而是到了我們必須面對現在這個環境來作為的時候。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是覺得效率是晚了一些啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們已經在補上了，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：連詐騙都知道要用我們的碳權交易來做詐騙，行政院……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們馬上處理。"],["柯委員志恩：對啊，這個東西還是需要處理，而且很重要的，我覺得經濟部長不能只是深表遺憾，我知道你很遺憾，因為你站在產業的這一方嘛，一定知道會造成經濟的一些影響，但我覺得這還是要想辦法，最重要的是碳費要怎麼分配？我講實在的，真的要替高雄講一下話，高雄現在是「三高」耶──碳排高、污染高、碳費繳得高。我們現在很擔心什麼？費用繳了這麼多，到時候總部都不在高雄而在臺北，污染給我們吸，然後錢繳到臺北，這樣有道理嗎？這個部分你要怎麼解決，這有道理嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在針對這個這麼大的命題提出一個可以改變的方法，也就是在我進來以後，我提出一個「境外關內」的概念，幫助臺灣用電、碳排比較高的產業往外移走……"],["柯委員志恩：對，這非常的重要。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望透過政府的力量替他們找到一個可以發展的地方。"],["柯委員志恩：對，因為美國也嘗試過這個部分，把碳費收完之後，為了要活絡地方的產業經濟，要有一套配套的作法嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對，有。"],["柯委員志恩：我今天特別要提出來，特別是在高雄，我們繳了這麼多費用……而且你看嘛，目前你們宣布要用三大綠色基金，院長，說實在的，我看到綠色基金會怕耶！你看，100億的綠色成長基金，碳費已經收掉非常多了，那這個綠色成長基金到底要怎麼用？到底要怎麼分配？你們到底可不可以增加我們高雄的補助？","我剛剛說的「三高」，我再說一次，空污高、碳排高、我們碳費繳得也高，如果這樣沒有補助我們更多，對這個地方來說，真的是非常非常的嚴重啊！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，跟你報告一下，您剛才所指教的這三個領域，我們都可以再處理，我們會把高雄原來產生碳高、電高的地方移到其他地區，讓高雄在原來的地方可以高值化，做一些比較高值的……"],["柯委員志恩：對啦，所以拿到這些錢之後就要用在我們真的已經是犧牲掉很多的區域，這是一個基本原則。","但我也要特別問一下，收了這個碳費就有辦法解決空污嗎？大家看一下，2021年到2022年臺灣的十大污染源有三個就在我們高雄，你還要說……像興達電廠，說實在的，2022年的碳排竟然比2021年增加4.6%，拜託一下，去年真的已經做了這樣的處理了，碳排還是增加？我說實在的，是不是有辦法透過徵收碳費來讓我們環境更加永續？數字會說話，院長、部長對不對？以價制量的經濟效果真的有因此把碳排大戶……這要怎麼處置？這也是一個大的課題，對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們更需要來協助輔導，要求他們能夠……"],["柯委員志恩：不要到了2024年比2023年的碳排更高！"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠達到自主減量的產業才能夠用優惠的碳費。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我就是告訴你數字嘛，用了這些東西，到時候碳排量還是很高，而且現在技術又這麼發達。","最後的時間真的很有限，確實大家還是考慮到電價的問題嘛，因為郭部長在剛上任的時候，6月你就說你不贊成撥補，但是行政院的發言人馬上幫你講：這1,000億不是跟這個有關。好，很快就解決這個問題，但是今年我們看到的預算當中，還是要再編1,000億啊！我只能說，漲幅12.5%，台電營收有740億，那為什麼還要再補1,000億？這是大家非常關切的。重點是補了1,000億之後，真的可以保證我們的電價撐到什麼時候？可以讓我們的民生用電，大家都有一個安心的標準嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果我們能夠得到大院各位委員的支持，然後我們可以改善台電的財務，因為現在原材料的價格看起來已經到了高點……"],["柯委員志恩：我們現在購電量是比較高，但是我們整個材料費是降低的，你要知道現在整個俄烏戰爭之後是完全往下降的。"],["郭部長智輝：然後我會要求台電的管理能夠精進。院長有要求我，兩年內如果台電不能夠有正向的發展，也就是得到這個補助，然後兩年內還要漲價，可能就是我告別的時候了。"],["柯委員志恩：你一直告訴我說兩年之內，我給你這麼多的錢，台電還沒有所作為，還是不斷的，要嘛就是給我漲電價，要嘛就是補助，就是你郭部長下臺的時候，你就要為台電下臺，因為你要為你的政策負責任就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們是說我們會共同努力，讓兩年後台電的財務能夠健全，在健全的過程當中，總有一段的調整期，現在我們儘量來調整，內外部都要調整。"],["柯委員志恩：其實歷屆部長都想要讓台電健全。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你的補助對我們民生物價的穩定有非常正向的效果。"],["柯委員志恩：我們當然知道，但是你知道台電不是只有這樣，它還要拿4,500萬去做宣傳費用，告訴大家台電是多麼需要大家的補助。說實在的，花了4,500萬來做宣傳還遠不如好好處理一下整個管理的機制，好好運用你過去管理企業界的機制來管管我們的台電啦！","最後一個問題，每次漲幅不能超過3%，但是現在漲幅不是11%就是12.5%，我覺得你那個3%都是訂假的，有沒有？你們每次都說隨著物價的波動會做調整，那你就不要訂3%，每次都說原則是3%，結果沒有一個地方是符合3%的。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這是局部的調整。"],["柯委員志恩：你們都是只看後面沒有看前面，謝謝兩位。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員，謝謝卓院長。下一位請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:15:43","end_time":"2024-10-11T10:41:03+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155381","委員名稱":"郭國文","duration":943,"start_time":"2024-10-11T10:25:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638716c50faefb946301de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdf53eff4d00ac319095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.46659375,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.469093750000003,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.38034375,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.68346875,"end":38.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.14721875,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.868468750000005,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.656593750000006,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.72409375,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.38159375,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.039093750000006,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.064093750000005,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.469093750000006,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.650343750000005,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.13971875,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.96659375,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.98346875,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.034093750000004,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.30409375000001,"end":61.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.38846875,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.422218750000006,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.979093750000004,"end":64.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.71284375,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.14721875000001,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.68721875,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.96534375,"end":69.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.38284375,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.39971875,"end":72.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.79596875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.03159375,"end":78.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.82471875,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.63471875,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.98784375000001,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.35909375,"end":87.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.39284375000001,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.28721875000001,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.81034375,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.96221875,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.79221875,"end":97.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.03659375000001,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.88409375,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.49471875,"end":115.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.99596875,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.86909375,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.80971875,"end":121.95284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.45909375000001,"end":131.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.16221875000002,"end":139.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.80659375000002,"end":143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院長,加油啊,祝你成功。另外,院長,今天的這個新聞有一個,就立法院的預算中心提出一個低薪的一個報告,有關低薪的報告當中,本席在這個質詢台上我講了好幾次,不論是央行提出報告,不論是監察院,"},{"start":120.247,"end":142.122,"text":"審計部提出報告,最後提出不外乎三個辦法,一個就是鼓勵企業加薪,第二個提高對低工資,第三個協助勞工的溢價能力。後兩者老實講,該發揮的都發揮了,就剩下企業而已。企業的部分本席上次有質詢你,要跟企業喊話,就我理解你還沒喊話,但是總統已經喊話了。"},{"start":143.863,"end":163.728,"text":"但是就我來說我相信你還有很多機會可以跟企業喊話更何況企業找你的機會非常的多還有一點本席提醒你一下以前行政院曾經提成立一個小組叫改善所得分配專案小組這個跨部會的小組後來居然取消掉了院長你知道這件事情嗎我要再瞭解一下你要去瞭解一下"},{"start":169.005,"end":195.539,"text":"如果說站在一個行政院部會連一個小組都解除掉的話很難讓人家相信說政府有那個決心跟魄力想要來解決現在低頻近頻低薪或低薪造成近頻的一個現象這個問題非同小可上次的論述當中我已經都跟你提過了麻煩院長再費心一下另外院長你在9月15號的時候有去過本席的選區七股對不對"},{"start":197.745,"end":220.963,"text":"那一次你特別去看太陽能光電的案場那個案場你去看是成功的案例啊但是有很多諸多失敗受到社會詬病甚至檢方介入甚至起訴的案件以及小惡假的現象本身必須在這邊慎重的提醒為什麼因為當初就是為了追求KPI啊"},{"start":222.028,"end":249.847,"text":"拼命的超車啊結果翻車了結果以至於整個綠能在推動的過程當中失去了正當性受到在野黨污名化也好受到社會的質疑也好以至於現階段我們要推動綠能變成是難上加難但是本席想要再提醒一下院長諸如此類的現象啊不是發生在太陽能業者而已還發生在什麼就天然氣的部分"},{"start":253.941,"end":274.613,"text":"我們現在天然氣的整個發展的目標2025的能源目標明年就到了50%天然氣30%燃煤20%再生能源現實上我們的天然氣大概目前佔4成燃煤的部分超過4成多一點核能的部分佔6.3%以至於再生能源的部分不到10%目前的規模大概是這樣子"},{"start":275.854,"end":294.335,"text":"在這種情況底下我們在2023年的時候提出了一個10年規劃案就是希望把這個天然氣的發電從20GW提升到47GW結果你提升的結果想要透過民間一起合作"},{"start":295.302,"end":323.395,"text":"以至於你用一個什麼方法?我擔心你一樣會陷入KPI的思考一樣可能會超車甚至有可能會翻車原因在哪裡?本席慎重的提醒你以前要跟台電簽訂這個購售條合約的時候購售電合約的時候也是所謂的PPA的時候他要五大條件工氣、土地、系統評估、環境核准函、地方政府同意函結果後來他改成什麼?他改成只要前三者後兩者不用"},{"start":324.315,"end":352.624,"text":"地方不用同意 環評先不用通過 但是你就可以先PPA了 院長你覺得這合理嗎地方現在最難以接受的說 突然之間這個地方要設廠 突然之間這個地方要設廠 完全不清楚以至於反彈非常的炸 當然會怪罪政府啊 以至於現在天然氣發電可能會重蹈太陽能 暗場一樣的結果"},{"start":354.81,"end":382.329,"text":"本席在這邊跟您說﹖一旦業者簽了這個PPA之後﹖他好像沒有退路﹖沒有退路了﹖因為違約金很高啊﹖他怕台電又處罰﹖因此呢﹖他只有往前衝﹖以至於衝突不斷再發生。 院長﹖這種不合理的方式本席強烈要求啊﹖要跟台電簽PPA不要急躁﹖一定要在五大條件恢復的情況底下才能來簽﹖"},{"start":383.933,"end":384.433,"text":"謝謝委員提醒。 天然氣發電廠它的設置"},{"start":399.67,"end":426.499,"text":"我們有一定的程序跟標準那應該也應該會一定要經過很多的環境影響評估沒有至於說的跟地方溝通不及的部分我們可以檢討在這個作為上如果能夠更加強跟地方的溝通了解來促進這個更可能性的成功我們願意這樣做院長問題是沒有成功本席跟你舉一個例子我手頭拿這一份資料就是堅決反對久違"},{"start":429.552,"end":456.16,"text":"設置了連署以前在網路上的連署高達一萬三千多份本席拿到厚厚的這疊也不過是兩千份而已後面還在連署當中這個案子在本席不斷努力的情況底下他已經撤掉了喔撤掉了最近又死灰復燃我們請部長來說明一下死灰復燃了而且還不止九位還多了一個寶村"},{"start":458.223,"end":459.625,"text":"報告委員 現在因為很多的產業都想要進駐台南"},{"start":482.875,"end":495.081,"text":"國務部長,我知道你的說法,南科旁邊需要電對不對?我問一下中科需不需要電?竹科需不需要電?竹科、中科有天然氣發電廠嗎?也沒有啊!親差公共欸!更何況!"},{"start":496.121,"end":522.376,"text":"我們旁邊就有一個森巴發電廠了你什麼東西都放在臺南你什麼意思啊不是 報告委員現在的電廠是滿足現在南科的需求不是滿足滿足現在南科只有2.3GW而已我們可以來算清楚你現在發展的是4.6GW是現實上提供之外外加Plus4.6GW南電北送的結果只要解決北電北方北部人不願意設電廠想要設在南部的需求而已啦"},{"start":523.649,"end":544.9,"text":"我們現在的科學園區在臺南還會持續的放大持續的增加所以我們在估計未來要滿足這邊的話水供業也會不足的旁邊還有新達電彩在改組旁邊還有森巴在偵測從一場偵測二場你沒事幹嘛全部都設在這邊"},{"start":546.411,"end":574.372,"text":"不是,沒道理啦!這個是我們要把這個...我跟你講,電的部分不需要做定性,就電的配置上面北中南要均衡,部長!都需要有電廠!需要有電廠,那你設在竹科?你為什麼不是設在中科?為什麼全部都設在南科?我們現在中科都有中科的電廠在...沒道理嘛!沒有沒有沒有!全部都是設在這邊,而且你現在就開快車,開到後來進入冰車,你後面我給你算一下,"},{"start":575.333,"end":594.386,"text":"不論是這一個九威天然發電廠、寶村天然發電廠,這幾個加起來,差不多是核能發電廠的量。 院長,你肺核的結果難道要讓台南來承擔嗎?委員這樣講的話有一點沉重啦,我覺得我們雖然... 你怎麼想要講得這麼沉重?我算出來的數字是如此。 我們除了均衡台灣之外,我們也要全島一命。"},{"start":605.725,"end":625.411,"text":"桃竹苗有桃竹苗的發電,台中有台中的發電,已經現在都有了,南部的發展,委員,報告委員,南部的發展會越來越快,難道我們不要先做桃竹苗嗎?我沒有說不發電,沒有人說不發電的道理,但是你選址還有配置,你要公平,你要分配清楚嘛。"},{"start":626.191,"end":653.596,"text":"明明已經被退掉的場為什麼可以重新再來?臺南的自治率臺灣臺南的自給率只有25%臺南的自給率25%能源的部分我跟部長說除了發電之外還有水利還有綠能我跟你說這個負擔的部分最近整個水利通過的整個那個聯外管線在哪裡?就在臺南啊"},{"start":654.335,"end":675.883,"text":"最近最新增加的廠在哪裡?也在台南啊!最近整個力能鋪設最多、增益最大在哪裡?也在台南啊!因為台南用電就增加非常的多,在未來會增加很多。每一個能源負擔的地方不一樣,你如果要算的話,下次大家可以來算清楚。因為我們現在要這個大南方計畫,會用很多電在台南。"},{"start":679.264,"end":702.848,"text":"不,我們現在蓋的墊就是希望在臺南能夠滿足進臺南的企業他們的用政所。你先把真正的建設建設出來再說,不要老是引進這些零幣銷運的建設來到臺南。我們不希望看到,只有看到零幣建設,連銀幣建設都沒有看到。那我請問一下部長嘛,人口數增加這麼多,就業人數這麼多,你改善了什麼生活?"},{"start":704.275,"end":720.738,"text":"我沒有看到政府改善什麼生活,我就看到政府來發電而已,著重於思考,沒有著重於生活啊。我們生活上面所需要的這個電跟水,那是基本的,我說的生活是交通,是住宅,是物價,是其他的生活機能。"},{"start":721.459,"end":723.12,"text":"新的企業本來大家誰會不希望有新的企業,企業不是很多都有來嗎?"},{"start":747.936,"end":749.117,"text":"有沒有去竹科?有沒有去南科?"},{"start":749.117,"end":767.033,"text":"報告委員,我想委員,我們可以跟台南市政府在進行更有效的溝通跟協商。市政府一直很希望引進更多更多的大廠到南部地區來。 我跟你講,市政府就是第一名中央的啊。中央跟地方政府在這個貿易政策上基本上都是一般的思考。 所以委員你要參與這樣的協商過程。"},{"start":769.375,"end":779.94,"text":"我完全沒有參與這樣的協商的過程,我看到了連居民都完全都不知道,每天都有新的電廠來在這邊,如果是你的話你會怎麼想?沒有一個大建設就是有電廠來,你願意嗎?我們核准都要環評啦,經過環評。"},{"start":788.263,"end":803.181,"text":"要地方政府同意 環評是事後的環評不是事前你現在五大核准條件是你達到PPA的合約之後你才去爭取所謂的環評跟地方居民的同意以至於現在早明不斷的原因在這邊 院長你要聽進去啊"},{"start":804.782,"end":814.485,"text":"這五大條件沒有放水的理由啊!法定的條件當然不容許放水。 責指之後我們必須要依照法定的程序來。 有任何放水不符合法定的條件請委員跟我們一起加強監督。"},{"start":830.148,"end":832.732,"text":"我希望能夠事先重演審查,不要想要KPI,KPI的結果之前的太陽能光電就是這樣的結果。"},{"start":844.298,"end":858.592,"text":"不要重蹈覆轍我們同意這個委員所指教的這個不是只有Follow這個KPI啦我們會按照法令許可的部分我們來進行我們也會要求這個臺電針對委員所提出來這個問題進行檢討"},{"start":862.336,"end":863.097,"text":"報告委員 在發展綠能的過程當中"},{"start":883.792,"end":909.731,"text":"天然氣來橋接現在的發電是必要的程序,這是國家的能源政策,我們也在進行第二次能源轉型。 它是一個橋接的過程。 廠設下去就不可能是橋接的啦,廠設下去可能是永久性的。 我覺得橋接的部分會喬了很久啦。 我覺得國家的能源政策沒有辦法進行第二次能源轉型,這是我們共同的責任。"},{"start":910.171,"end":934.973,"text":"我基本上我當然跟你共同責任阿我是執政黨的議員阿但是也是因為這樣的共同責任我必須要善盡提醒阿我覺得這個是重蹈覆轍嘛你之前的太陽能政策原來是對的阿可是方法是錯的阿我現在跟你討論的是方法不是討論政策目標阿我當然違反政策目標阿我們會按照這個委員的這個指教那台電會深刻的檢討我就請你們好好檢討一下嘛"},{"start":939.79,"end":940.213,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:25:20 - 10:41:03","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155381","gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時25分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：卓院長好。聽說今天中午要吃和解飯，好像應該史上第一例嘛？史無前例嘛，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會吧！真的嗎？"],["郭委員國文：對，我印象中，我打聽的結果應該是史無前例，但中午要吃和解飯……"],["卓院長榮泰：以前陳建仁院長的時候也是多次這樣、院長之間有聯誼。"],["郭委員國文：立法院長邀行政院長應該是第一次，據我理解的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個也不是什麼邀，我們是約好的，沒有誰邀誰。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，誰主動都沒關係，重點是結果，結果有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？"],["郭委員國文：結果有沒有信心啊？和解能不能達成？"],["卓院長榮泰：對國家有信心，對任何團結的動作就要深具信念。"],["郭委員國文：對韓院長要有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["郭委員國文：你如果能夠達成的話，這一頓和解飯我跟它算一下，總預算的金額高達3兆1,325億，如果能夠吃完這頓飯，你的行情就不一樣了，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：照委員這樣算，那民間的投資更大，我覺得這是國家整體發展，我們一起努力。"],["郭委員國文：這頓飯一定要吃，一定要和解，院長加油，祝你成功。","另外院長，今天有一個新聞，關於立法院預算中心提出一個低薪的報告，有關低薪的報告當中，本席在這一個質詢臺上講了好幾次，不論是央行提出報告、不論是監察院、審計部，我都要求它提出報告，結果這個報告的內容當中最後提出不外乎三個辦法，一個是鼓勵企業加薪，第二個提高最低工資，第三個協助勞工的議價能力。後兩者老實講，該發揮的都發揮了，就剩下企業而已，企業的部分，本席上次有質詢要您跟企業喊話，就我理解您還沒喊話，但是總統已經喊話了，但是就我來說，我相信您還有很多機會可以跟企業喊話，更何況企業找你的機會非常地多。","還有一點本席提醒你一下，以前行政院曾經成立一個小組，即改善所得分配專案小組，這個跨部會的小組後來居然取消掉，院長知道這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要再了解一下。"],["郭委員國文：你要去了解一下，如果說行政院部會連一個小組都解除掉的話，很難讓人家相信政府有那個決心跟魄力，想要來解決現在低薪造成近貧的現象，這個問題非同小可，上次的論述當中，我已經都跟您提過了，麻煩院長再費心一下。","另外院長在9月15號的時候有去過本席的選區七股，對不對？那一次您特別去看太陽能光電的案場，您去看的那一個案場是成功的案例啊！但是有諸多失敗受到社會詬病、甚至檢方介入、甚至起訴的案件以及小二甲的現象，本席必須在這邊慎重地提醒，為什麼？因為當初就是為了追求KPI，拼命地超車，結果翻車了，以至於整個綠能在推動的過程當中，失去了正當性，受到在野黨污名化也好，受到社會的質疑也好，以至於現階段我們要推動綠能變得是難上加難。","但是本席想要再提醒一下院長，諸如此類的現象不是發生在太陽能業者而已，還發生在什麼？就天然氣的部分，我讓您看一下現在天然氣整個發展的目標，2025的能源目標明年就到了，50%天然氣、30%燃煤、20%再生能源，現實上天然氣目前大概占四成，燃煤的部分超過四成多一點，核能的部分占6.3%，以至於再生能源的部分不到10%，目前的規模大概是這樣子。在這種情況底下，我們在2023年的時候提出了一個10年規劃案，就是希望把天然氣的發電從20GW提升到47GW，結果提升的結果，想要透過民間一起合作，以至於你用一個什麼方法，擔心一樣會陷入KPI的思考，一樣可能會超車，甚至有可能會翻車，原因在哪裡？本席慎重地提醒你，以前要跟台電簽訂購售電合約，也就是所謂PPA的時候，它要五大條件──供氣、土地、系統評估、環境核准函及地方政府同意函，結果後來改成怎樣？改成只要前三者，後兩者不用，地方不用同意、環評先不用通過，但是它就可以先PPA了，院長，你覺得這合理嗎？地方現在最難以接受的是，突然之間這個地方要設廠、突然之間那個地方要設廠，完全不清楚，以至於反彈非常大，當然會怪罪政府，以至於現在的天然氣發電可能會重蹈和太陽能案場一樣的結果。","本席在這邊跟你說，一旦業者簽了PPA之後，它好像沒有退路了，因為違約金很高，它又怕台電處罰，因此它只有往前衝，以至於衝突不斷在發生。院長，面對這種不合理的方式，本席強烈要求，跟台電簽訂PPA不要急躁，一定要這五大條件恢復的情況底下才能來簽，恢復到2023年以前，這是第一；第二，既有部分的業者，應該讓它有退場機制不要再擾民，有沒有可能？院長請說。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒，天然氣發電廠的設置我們有一定的程序跟標準，也一定要經過很多的環境影響評估……"],["郭委員國文：沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於說跟地方溝通不及的部分，我們可以檢討在這個作為上，如果能夠更加強跟地方的溝通了解，來促進更可能性的成功，我們願意這樣做。"],["郭委員國文：院長，問題是沒有成功！本席跟你舉一個例子，我手頭拿的這一份資料就是堅決反對九崴電廠設置的連署，以前在網路上的連署高達一萬三千多份，本席拿到厚厚這一疊也不過是2千份而已，後面還在連署當中。這個案子在本席不斷努力的情況底下，它已經撤掉了，但是最近又死灰復燃……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長來說明一下。"],["郭委員國文：死灰復燃了！而且不只九崴，還多了一個寶椿，再加上本來七股就有很多綠電爭議的情況底下、太陽能案場一大堆的情況底下，我請教一下院長、部長，全臺灣沒有地方可以設這些能源發電廠了嗎？都一定要設在臺南嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在因為很多產業都想要進駐臺南，所以臺南需要能夠發電的……"],["郭委員國文：郭部長，我知道你的說法，南科旁邊需要電，對不對？我問一下，中科需不需要電？竹科需不需要電？竹科、中科有天然氣發電廠嗎？也沒有啊！隨便說說！更何況我們旁邊就有一個森霸發電廠了，什麼東西都放在臺南，你什麼意思啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，現在的電廠是滿足現在南科的需求……"],["郭委員國文：不是滿足，現在南科只有2.3GW而已，我們可以來算清楚，你現在要發展的是4.6GW，是現實上提供之外，外加4.6GW，南電北送的結果，只是要解決北部人不願意設電廠，想要設在南部的需求而已啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在的科學園區在臺南還會持續地放大、持續地增加……"],["郭委員國文：我知道會放大……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們估計未來要滿足這邊的話，水跟電都是不足的。"],["郭委員國文：旁邊還有興達電廠在改組，旁邊還有森霸在增設，從一廠增設二廠，你沒事幹嘛全部都設在這邊？"],["郭部長智輝：不是……"],["郭委員國文：沒道理啦！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們要把科學園區高值化，所以需要有電廠……"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，電的部分不需要就地性，在電的配置上面，北中南要均衡，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：都需要有電廠。"],["郭委員國文：需要有電廠？那你設在竹科啊！你為什麼不設在中科？為什麼全部都設在南科？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺中有臺中……"],["郭部長智輝：中科都有中科的電廠……"],["郭委員國文：沒道理嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["郭委員國文：全部都是設在這邊，而且你現在就開快車，開到後來一定會翻車，後面我跟你算一下，不論是九崴天然氣發電廠、寶椿天然氣發電廠，這幾個加起來差不多是核能發電廠的量耶！院長，你廢核的結果難道要讓臺南來承擔嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這樣講……"],["郭委員國文：院長，麻煩你回去計算清楚，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這樣講的話有點沉重啦，我覺得我們雖然……"],["郭委員國文：我也不想要講得這麼沉重，但我算出來的數字就是如此！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了均衡臺灣之外，也要全島一命，桃竹苗有桃竹苗的發電，臺中有臺中的發電，現在已經都有了，南部的發展……"],["郭委員國文：我知道有在進行、在規劃……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，南部的發展會越來越快，難道我們不要先做好準備嗎？"],["郭委員國文：我沒有說不發電，沒有人說不發電的道理……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["郭委員國文：但是你的選址還有配置要公平，你要分配清楚嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：是的……"],["郭委員國文：明明已經被退掉的廠，為什麼可以重新再來？"],["郭部長智輝：臺南的自給率只有25%。"],["郭委員國文：臺南的自給率25%，能源的部分我跟部長說，除了發電之外，還有水力，還有綠能，我跟你說，這個負擔的部分，最近整個水力通過了，那個聯外管線在哪裡？就在臺南啊！最新增加的廠在哪裡？也在臺南啊！最近整個綠能鋪設最多、爭議最大的在哪裡？也在臺南啊！"],["郭部長智輝：因為臺南用電增加非常地多，在未來會增加很多。"],["郭委員國文：就是都在臺南啊，怎麼會沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：會增加很多。"],["郭委員國文：每個能源負擔的地方不一樣，你如果要算的話，下次大家可以來算清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們現在要做大南方計畫，會用很多電在臺南。"],["郭委員國文：問題是這個經濟成果也不是臺南獨享啦，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們現在蓋的電廠，就是希望在臺南能夠滿足進駐臺南的企業他們的用電……"],["郭委員國文：你先把真正的建設建設出來再說，不要老是引進這些鄰避效應的建設來到臺南，我們不希望只有看到鄰避建設，而迎臂建設都沒有看到。我請問一下部長，人口數增加這麼多，就業人數這麼多，你改善了什麼生活？我沒有看到政府改善了什麼生活，我只看到政府來發電而已，只著重於思考，沒有著重於生活啊！"],["郭部長智輝：生活上面所需要的電跟水，那是我們優先要去未雨綢繆的部分。"],["郭委員國文：那是生活上基本的，我說的生活是交通、是住宅、是物價、是其他的生活機能。"],["郭部長智輝：並不是滿足現在的需求，而是要滿足未來5到10年、20年的需求，所以現在蓋的電廠……"],["郭委員國文：現階段南科都說沒有缺電！你就講出來嘛，你們的總體發展是什麼？我看到的是現在全部都設在臺南。"],["郭部長智輝：現在臺南有很多地區都要讓新的企業進來發展，包括很多的……"],["郭委員國文：新企業？誰不希望有企業？企業不是很多都有來嗎？有沒有去竹科，有沒有去南科？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我想我們可以跟臺南市政府再進行更有效的溝通跟協商，市政府一直很希望引進更多、更多的大廠到南部地區來。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，市政府就是聽命中央的啊，中央跟地方政府在這個光電政策上基本上都是一脈的思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員也要參與這樣的協商過程，如果地方政府……"],["郭委員國文：我完全沒有參與這樣的協商過程，我看到的是連居民都完全不知道，每天都有新的電廠來設在這邊，如果是你的話，你會怎麼想？"],["卓院長榮泰：要積極一點跟地方政府來溝通。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是這樣子的……"],["郭委員國文：沒有一個大建設，就只有電廠來，你願意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們核准都要環評，要經過環評……"],["郭委員國文：環評是事後的環評，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：然後要地方政府同意。"],["郭委員國文：環評是事後的環評，不是事前。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["郭委員國文：現在五大核准條件是拿到PPA的合約之後，才去爭取所謂的環評跟地方居民的同意，以至於現在擾民不斷，原因在這邊。院長你要聽進去啊！這五大條件沒有放水的理由，你要事先有這五大條件，才能讓台電簽PPA啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：法定的條件當然不容許放水。"],["郭委員國文：他已經放寬了，他已經放水了！"],["卓院長榮泰：擇址之後我們必須要依照法定的程序來，所以……"],["郭委員國文：他基本上就是放水，結果才會造成今天這樣的爭議嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：有任何放水、不符合法定的條件，請委員跟我們一起加強監督。"],["郭委員國文：好，五大條件從五降為三，麻煩院長把三恢復到五就好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：他一定有他標準的程序，我們一定照程序來進行。"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩從嚴審查。"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部一定是取得許可……"],["郭委員國文：我希望能夠事先從嚴審查，不要想要KPI，KPI的結果，之前的太陽光電就是這樣的結果，不要重蹈覆轍。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們同意委員所指教的，不是只有follow這個KPI，我們會按照法令許可的部分來進行，也會要求台電針對委員所提出來的這個問題進行檢討。"],["郭委員國文：郭部長，台電所有的部分，你要全面性地檢討，我講白一點，我看到的部分裡面，全部倚重整個天然氣的發電而已，燃煤也要降低，核能也要廢除，然後太陽光電又有一定的侷限性，以至於你現在幾乎都倚重在天然氣的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在發展綠能的過程當中，以天然氣來橋接現在的燃煤發電是必要的程序。"],["郭委員國文：我可以理解橋接，但這可能是替代性的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是國家的能源政策，我們也在進行第二次能源轉型。"],["郭委員國文：也可能會變成永續性的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：它是一個橋接的過程。"],["郭委員國文：廠設下去就不可能是橋接的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是。"],["郭委員國文：廠設下去可能是永久性的。"],["卓院長榮泰：至少目前這個階段要讓它這樣成功。"],["郭委員國文：我覺得橋接的部分會「橋」很久。"],["卓院長榮泰：否則國家的能源政策沒有辦法進行第二次能源轉型，這是我們共同的責任。"],["郭委員國文：基本上我當然跟你有共同的責任，我是執政黨的一員啊！但是也因為這樣的共同責任，我必須要善盡提醒，我覺得這個是重蹈覆轍嘛！你之前的太陽能政策原來也是對的，可是方法是錯的啊！我現在跟你討論的是方法，不是討論政策目標啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會……"],["郭委員國文：當然不會違反政策目標啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會按照委員的指教，台電會深刻的檢討。"],["郭委員國文：我就請你們好好檢討一下嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是的……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼五要放寬成三？沒有道理嘛！"],["主席：謝謝……"],["郭委員國文：院長、部長，拜託了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是芬蘭語言高中的同學，我們在此表示歡迎他們的參訪。Thank you for your visit。","下一位請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137801_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:03:20","end_time":"2024-10-11T09:14:21+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155380","委員名稱":"羅智強","duration":200,"start_time":"2024-10-11T09:11:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c63829973940383562f51de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdf4cd41134506f46ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.083468750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":18.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.53846875,"end":20.348468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.61846875,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.28846875,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.08909375,"end":36.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.74659375,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.14721875,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.22721875,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.91034375,"end":44.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.150343750000005,"end":48.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.69846875,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.75721875,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.507843750000006,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.95034375,"end":59.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.98346875,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.86034375,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.45909375000001,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.43346875,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.96909375,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.43721875,"end":74.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.22596875,"end":75.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.45346875,"end":78.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.24221875,"end":81.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.58346875000001,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.81909375000001,"end":88.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.63721875,"end":90.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.00409375000001,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.23596875000001,"end":103.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.75721875,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.84159375,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.95034375,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.14409375000001,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.50596875000001,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.58159375000001,"end":123.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.93971875000001,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.30221875000001,"end":129.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.51284375,"end":131.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.01034375,"end":136.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.39784375000002,"end":137.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.26659375,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.83971875,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.88971875000001,"end":151.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.47971875000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.31909375,"end":156.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.47909375,"end":158.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.50409375,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.67659375000002,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.95409375,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.29971875,"end":173.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.18096875,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.17596875,"end":179.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.50909375,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.90534375000001,"end":184.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.38596875000002,"end":186.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.98909375000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.95471875,"end":199.29096875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.094,"end":44.526,"text":"和解範韓國瑜有真心賴清德有爭議嗎首先要謝謝韓國瑜院長給了我們一個滿滿中華民國國旗的中華民國國慶為委屈了8年的中華民國爭了一口氣這是韓國瑜對中華民國對台灣的真心跟真愛我希望賴清德總統可以學習"},{"start":46.993,"end":66.429,"text":"賴總統除了口頭上說到中華民國有沒有像韓國瑜一樣真心誠意的愛中華民國賴總統昨天在國慶演說上說人民想要當家做主的願望終於實現我想請教賴總統"},{"sta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感謝韓國瑜和卓榮泰開啟朝野合作,促成朝野黨團會商。"},{"start":89.673,"end":102.974,"text":"我想請教賴總統,韓院長昨天當面呼籲您尊重國會改革,打造一個所有官員負責任、不造假、不隱瞞、不推諉的體制的建言,你聽見了嗎?"},{"start":106.011,"end":122.308,"text":"賴總統說國家利益永遠高於政黨利益政黨利益不能凌駕人民利益那我就請教賴總統為什麼親近執政黨的媒體8年可以拿到95億元的標案不親近執政黨的媒體卻要被罰錢關台"},{"start":124.994,"end":146.365,"text":"解鈴還需細鈴人,要化解朝野僵局,和解飯當然可以吃啊,但如果只是想把球踢給韓國瑜院長,那就太算計了。 要化解朝野僵局使作勇者的行政院,就應該先拋出和解的三大橄欖枝。"},{"start":147.952,"end":166.481,"text":"禁法補償、健保典值、公糧收購、要依法編列、尊重立法,這才是所謂的要化解朝野僵局的誠意。 所以要化解政治對立,那麼始作俑者的民進黨,"},{"start":168.184,"end":196.804,"text":"請你先尊重民主﹐放棄在基隆搞的惡意罷免﹐法院已經適度打臉了民進黨﹐還謝國良清白﹐我請賴清德主席﹐你趕快命令林佑昌﹐停止作亂﹐還給基隆一個善良乾淨的治理環境。﹐遞書感染之﹐化解朝野僵局跟政治對立﹐主動權就在賴清德總統手上﹐"},{"start":197.389,"end":198.933,"text":"要不要遞書在你一念之間?"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:11:01 - 09:14:21","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155380","gazette":{"lineno":19,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時11分）和解飯，韓國瑜有真心，賴清德有真意嗎？首先，要謝謝韓國瑜院長給了我們一個滿滿中華民國國旗的中華民國國慶，為委屈了八年的中華民國爭了一口氣，這是韓國瑜對中華民國、對臺灣的真心跟真愛，我希望賴清德總統可以學習。賴清德總統除了口頭上說到中華民國，有沒有像韓國瑜一樣真心誠意地愛中華民國？","賴總統昨天在國慶演說上說，人民想要當家作主的願望終於實現，我想請教賴總統，人民反廢死、要正義、挺核能、反空污的願望實現了嗎？賴總統還說國家要團結，社會要安定，感謝韓國瑜和卓榮泰開啟朝野合作，促成朝野黨團會商。我想請教賴總統，韓院長昨天當面呼籲你尊重國會改革，打造一個所有官員負責任、不造假、不隱瞞、不推諉體制的建言，你聽見了嗎？賴總統說，國家利益永遠高於政黨利益，政黨利益不能凌駕人民利益，那我就請教賴總統，為什麼親近執政黨的媒體八年可以拿到95億元的標案，不親近執政黨的媒體卻要被罰錢、關台？","解鈴還須繫鈴人，要化解朝野僵局，和解飯當然可以吃，但如果只是想把球踢給韓國瑜院長，那就太算計了！要化解朝野僵局，始作俑者的行政院應該先拋出和解的三大橄欖枝，禁伐補償、健保點值、公糧收購要依法編列，尊重立法，這才是所謂的要化解朝野僵局的誠意。","所以要化解政治對立，始作俑者的民進黨，請你先尊重民主，放棄在基隆搞的惡意罷免，法院已經四度打臉民進黨，還謝國樑清白，我請賴清德主席趕快命令林右昌停止作亂，還給基隆一個善良、乾淨的治理環境。遞出橄欖枝，化解朝野僵局跟政治對立，主動權就在賴清德總統手上，要不要遞出，在你一念之間。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢，現在休息。","休息（9時14分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["江啟臣","麥玉珍","林國成","洪孟楷","羅智強"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1137801_00006"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:03:10","end_time":"2024-10-11T09:10:52+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155379","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","duration":190,"start_time":"2024-10-11T09:07:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c63832712dab6d123d6f1de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdfda0cefd797cb7ac95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.42659375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.615343750000001,"end":23.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.28034375,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.621593750000002,"end":28.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.11471875,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.555968750000005,"end":48.259718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.799718750000004,"end":53.406593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.149093750000006,"end":62.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.85659375,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.28846875,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.53721875000001,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.93784375,"end":83.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.06846875000001,"end":90.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.81846875000001,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.75846875,"end":97.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.78784375000001,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.48284375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.33909375,"end":109.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.88721875,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.23596875000001,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.29784375,"end":133.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.28846875000002,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.49909375000001,"end":137.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.46034375000002,"end":145.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.54409375,"end":150.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.75846875000002,"end":155.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.87159375000002,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.51659375,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.43159375000002,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.73846875,"end":176.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.83034375,"end":185.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.19596875000002,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.77784375000002,"end":189.25034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.46,"end":27.926,"text":"主席、行政官員、立議院同仁以及建安師生們大家早安、大家好昨天是我們中華民國113歲的生日聽到了韓國瑜院長國慶致詞跟賴清德總統上任首次的國慶演說我們必須要說韓院長的高度曾經講到"},{"start":29.841,"end":53.272,"text":"台積電可以是中華民國,慈濟可以是中華民國,奧運選手可以是中華民國,青年文創布袋戲等等,只要認同熱愛這塊土地,並且願意為中華民國努力的人,每一個人都可以是中華民國的一份子。我想這就代表了臺灣精神,這也代表了中華民國的價值。"},{"start":54.475,"end":79.044,"text":"經過半個世界的努力,華麗變成世界前25大的經濟體。 臺灣價值就是中華民國價值的一體兩面。 而我們更期待的就是希望未來能夠讓政府有能、人民有權、國會有監督才能真正實現民有、民智、民想的民主精神, 落腳在臺灣、落腳在中華民國。"},{"start":81.598,"end":108.73,"text":"另外一個部分,我們也要說賴清德總統昨天所強調的跨黨派朝野合作,訴諸團結臺灣。我想2350萬人沒有一個人不希望團結。但重點是,無論國家利益高於政黨利益,政黨利益不能凌駕人民利益。我們要請教現在執政的執政黨,你做到了嗎?民進黨你有做到嗎?"},{"start":110.149,"end":133.548,"text":"過去放任網軍徹裔持續不斷拿不實的資料抹黑再張造謠,這樣子算是團結台灣嗎?撕裂台灣,讓中華民國國家烏煙瘴氣,這真的符合我們的國家利益嗎?民進黨說今天希望朝野和解飯能夠一飯米恩仇。"},{"start":134.332,"end":154.867,"text":"我必須很實際的講,很抱歉,在野黨與執政黨沒有恩也沒有仇。 立法部門跟行政部門沒有恩也沒有仇。 大家都是為人民服務,大家都是為國家利益來共同打拼。 既然如此,我們只要求的是依法行政,依法編列。"},{"start":155.908,"end":170.042,"text":"依法編列立即審查預算違法漏編這就是政院的怠惰所以每一個部分只要依法行政我想大家就可以開大門走大路"},{"start":171.98,"end":188.196,"text":"團結臺灣,共圓夢想,就不要只是口號,而是實際的行動。 執政黨能夠做得更多,尊重國會,尊重臺灣的多數主流民意,讓我們真真正正能夠為中華民國打拚。 天佑臺灣,天佑中華民國。謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:07:42 - 09:10:52","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155379","gazette":{"lineno":13,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時7分）主席、行政官員、立院同仁以及建安師生們，大家早安、大家好。昨天是我們中華民國113歲的生日，聽到了韓國瑜院長國慶致詞跟賴清德總統上任首次的國慶演說。我們必須要說韓院長的高度，曾經講到台積電可以是中華民國，慈濟可以是中華民國，奧運選手可以是中華民國，青年文創、布袋戲等等，只要認同、熱愛這塊土地，並且願意為中華民國努力的人，每一個人都可以是中華民國的一分子，我想這就代表了臺灣精神，這也代表了中華民國的價值。經過半個世紀的努力，華麗變成世界前二十五大的經濟體，臺灣價值就是中華民國價值的一體兩面，而我們更期待的就是希望未來能夠讓政府有能、人民有權、國會有監督，才能真真正正實現民有、民治、民享的民主精神落腳在臺灣、落腳在中華民國。","而另外一個部分，我們也要說賴清德總統昨天所強調的跨黨派朝野合作，訴諸團結臺灣，我想2,350萬人沒有一個人不希望團結，但重點是無論國家利益高於政黨利益，政黨利益不能凌駕人民利益，我們要請教現在執政的執政黨，你做到了嗎？民進黨你有做到嗎？過去放任網軍、側翼持續不斷拿不實的資料抹黑、栽贓、造謠，這樣子算是團結臺灣嗎？撕裂臺灣，讓中華民國國家烏煙瘴氣，這真的符合我們的國家利益嗎？民進黨說希望今天朝野和解飯能夠一飯泯恩仇，我必須很實際地講，很抱歉！在野黨與執政黨沒有恩也沒有仇，立法部門跟行政部門沒有恩也沒有仇，大家都是為人民服務，大家都是為國家利益共同打拼，既然如此，我們只要求依法行政、依法編列；依法編列，立即審查預算；違法漏編，這就是政院的怠惰，所以每一個部分只要依法行政，我想大家就可以開大門、走大路。","團結臺灣，共圓夢想，不要只是口號，而是實際的行動，執政黨能夠做得更多，尊重國會、尊重臺灣多數主流民意，讓我們真真正正能夠為中華民國打拼。天佑臺灣、天佑中華民國！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["江啟臣","麥玉珍","林國成","洪孟楷","羅智強"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1137801_00006"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:03:19","end_time":"2024-10-11T09:07:16+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155378","委員名稱":"林國成","duration":199,"start_time":"2024-10-11T09:03:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c63832fa3bc1daa6dd9d1de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdfdc95e5c9096b2c805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.68659375,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.20534375,"end":18.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.94784375,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.922218750000003,"end":21.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.39034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.06909375,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.48659375,"end":28.667843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.359718750000003,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.33409375,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.337843750000005,"end":38.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.079718750000005,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":41.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.775343750000005,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.462843750000005,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.60596875,"end":48.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.39471875,"end":51.094718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.55034375,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.305343750000006,"end":56.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.93346875,"end":57.422843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.82784375000001,"end":59.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.16909375,"end":63.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.07159375,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.09659375000001,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.84721875000001,"end":70.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.07471875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.21784375,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.55096875000001,"end":75.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.86284375000001,"end":79.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.44471875,"end":80.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.87909375000001,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.34721875000001,"end":83.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.05159375000001,"end":84.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.58721875,"end":86.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.71346875,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.79346875,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.24471875,"end":91.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.94909375,"end":95.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.87659375000001,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.51346875,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.83784375,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.66034375000001,"end":104.47034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.14534375000001,"end":107.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.96346875,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.29096875,"end":122.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.76284375,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.80846875,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.14159375,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.28034375000001,"end":134.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEA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三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155378","gazette":{"lineno":9,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時4分）各位線上所有的好朋友、各位官員、各位國人同胞。昨天我看過賴總統的文告，賴總統講「國家要團結，社會要安定」。賴總統昨天在文告中講得非常清楚，我也認同，但是我在這裡更認同的一句話是「國家利益永遠高於政黨利益，政黨利益永遠不能凌駕人民利益」，這我拍拍手。但我要請教賴總統，你就任以來，你的放話造謠、打壓政敵、製造對立，在國人來看，都是在找敵人，這等等我請問，你這次說的文告是真的或假的？所以賴總統你能不能做給我們看一看？千萬不要講一套、做一套。至於未來，我就要請教我們最敬愛的卓院長，賴總統的話你聽不聽？賴總統已經講出這些話，那你到底要不要聽他的話，在整個施政、在立法院的關係如何去改善？你要不要有所作為？那我現在只有問三個敏感的問題：第一個，原住民的禁伐補償，你到底編不編？第二個，農民的公糧收購漲5塊錢，你到底編不編？另外一個，國會改革的部分，你釋憲到底撤不撤？所以這三點我請卓院長做施政的決策參考。","當然，我們希望賴總統、卓院長以及執政的所有的同仁，我相信你們一定要有誠意放下屠刀，立地成佛，臺灣人民多數都希望兩岸和平、政黨和解、人民安定、百姓樂利，更希望執政黨要以民為念，釋出善意，達到安和樂利的臺灣。所以在這裡，我還是要拜託執政黨，賴總統已經講了立地成佛，把所有屠刀放下，政黨才會和解，臺灣才會安定。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是臺北市建安國小的小朋友還有老師，我們在此歡迎你們的參訪。","我們現在進行的是國是論壇，每人發言3分鐘。下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["江啟臣","麥玉珍","林國成","洪孟楷","羅智強"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1137801_00006"}}},{"date":"2024-10-11","影片長度":"00:03:13","end_time":"2024-10-11T09:03:48+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155377","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","duration":193,"start_time":"2024-10-11T09:00:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb6555f73b24c638e4ef259a86f3e4a11de834b4d1bbb5bfae5bbfb161bf7cdf4cd7d05d3f4e96135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.58034375,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.976593750000003,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.11534375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.767218750000005,"end":44.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.44159375,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.57221875,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.92659375000001,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.04721875,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.82909375000001,"end":107.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.41909375,"end":115.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.13096875000001,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.85096875,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.79971875,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.24034375000002,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.38346875000002,"end":176.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.48846875,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.04096875000002,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.80846875,"end":183.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.76596875,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.55471875,"end":187.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.73159375,"end":189.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.58784375000002,"end":192.33846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.969,"end":44.609,"text":"謝謝主席各位親愛的家人大家好擺善孝為先也是人生唯一成功的道路人口老化不是新住民的問題禁止守道延續傳承是新住民的責任但現行的規定新住民卻無法心智"},{"start":45.509,"end":72.414,"text":"李行孝道因為入出國籍移民署並沒有開放新住民的執行血腥的在臺灣長期居留孝順父母是孩子基本的權利卻因為現行的政策而變得遙不可及新住民離鄉背井演嫁臺灣我們為了家庭默默的付出孝順"},{"start":74.055,"end":102.731,"text":"公婆持家教子是我們的責任但是看著自己的父母也在他鄉慢慢的老去生病時卻無法在身邊進到當我們的父母走到最後一個路程我們是來不及回家見到我們父母最後一面這是我們一輩子的遺憾這不僅僅是國界的主"},{"start":103.888,"end":107.209,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":125.934,"end":142.74,"text":"今宵到和傳承的目標而努力。 燒盡公婆照顧父母是我們非常重要的一環。然而現行的政策卻忽視了新住民家庭的特殊狀況。 剝奪了我們聚會和照顧長輩的機會。 因此與政府與政府重新檢視"},{"start":150.763,"end":175.148,"text":"新住民依新政策提供更靈活的依親管道讓我們在臺灣的新住民繼續履行我們傳統肖道美德唯一如此才能真正的成為一個包容多元尊重家庭價值的社會呼應政府跨越國界依親經銷"},{"start":177.549,"end":192.059,"text":"呼應政府,跨越國界,一清消道。 呼應政府,跨越國界,一清消道。 臺灣加油!新住民加油!謝謝大家!"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-11T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:00:35 - 09:03:48","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155377","gazette":{"lineno":1,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時）謝謝主席。各位親愛的家人，大家好。百善孝為先，也是人生成功唯一的道路。人口老化不是新住民的問題，盡職守道、延續傳承是新住民的責任，但現行規定讓新住民無法親自履行孝道，因為入出國及移民署並沒有開放新住民的直系血親在臺灣長期居留。孝順父母是孩子基本的權利，卻因為現行政策而變得遙不可及，新住民離鄉背井遠嫁臺灣，我們為了家庭默默付出，孝順公婆、持家教子是我們的責任，但是看著自己的父母遠在他鄉慢慢地老去、生病時卻無法在身邊盡孝道，當我們的父母走到最後一程，來不及回家見父母最後一面，這是我們一輩子的遺憾。這不僅僅是國界的阻隔，也讓我們心靈孤單與煎熬。","無論是傳統社會還是現代的社會，孝道是人生必走的道路，更是文化傳承和家庭價值觀的核心。不管是為了家庭或者事業，都少不了盡孝道和為傳承的目標而努力。孝敬公婆、照顧父母是非常重要的一環，然而現行政策卻忽視了新住民家庭的特殊狀況，剝奪了我們聚會和照顧長輩的機會。因此，玉珍呼籲政府重新檢視新住民依親政策，提供更靈活的依親管道，讓在臺灣的新住民繼續履行傳統孝道的美德，唯有如此，才能真正地成為一個包容多元、尊重家庭價值的社會。呼籲政府「跨越國界，依親盡孝」！呼籲政府「跨越國界，依親盡孝」！呼籲政府「跨越國界，依親盡孝」！臺灣加油、新住民加油！謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥委員。","下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["江啟臣","麥玉珍","林國成","洪孟楷","羅智強"],"page_start":181,"meetingDate":["2024-10-11"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1137801_00006"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}