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那麼本次議程我們要請行政院人事總處人事長及相關部會列席就政府機關導入AI提升效能進行專題報告．並備質詢現在進行報告時間5分鐘那麼依序我們先請人事長以及處發部的次長那其餘的列席機關我們再依序的來視情況邀請好 首先邀請蘇人事長報告"},{"start":1978.409,"end":1991.056,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安今天總處非常榮幸能夠列席就整個政府機關導入AI提升效能提出專案報告"},{"start":1991.943,"end":2009.823,"text":"為了建國臺灣AI產業漸漸發展的基礎環境及前面提升公務人員對AI的認知和共識,行政院在113年6月6日合併提升行政院公務人員人工智慧智能實施計畫本總處依據實施計畫積極辦理"},{"start":2015.446,"end":2031.656,"text":"113至114年公務人員AI智能培訓相關課程．結合了樹花部．國科會及專業機構的支援．推動高階人才AI共識營．AI推動實務種子人員課程．公務人員AI通識課程．"},{"start":2032.737,"end":2046.663,"text":"公務機關應用AI工作坊公務機關AI應用成果競賽五大策略前面針對行政院各部會高階主管到基層公務員進行培訓接下來請就五項策略的執行規劃跟委員報告"},{"start":2049.969,"end":2075.526,"text":"第一在高階人才AI共事員部分總處已經在今年的一一三年七月到十月分別辦理部會首長部會副首長三級機關首長三級機關副首長及二級機關司長共事員採前沿調性的方式我們總計會培訓731位今天下午是第四個場次針對三級機關副首長及二級機關司長處長"},{"start":2080.329,"end":2098.518,"text":"第2 AI推動實務總值人員課程：以行政院首屬各機關會資訊單位負責推動AI應用的課長級以上人員為對象培育機關導入AI應用專案總值人才的關鍵能力今年下半年規劃辦理一個班期那明年"},{"start":2099.738,"end":2124.619,"text":"來辦理五個班期。第三,針對公務人員AI通識課程部分,為了使公務人員普遍掌握AI的智能及先輩知識,總處已經在今年9月1日在一等公務員學習平台的AI人工智慧專期建置五門AI核心概念的數位課程,並結合AI技術應用趨勢,進行AI應用工具實作演練,辦理AI應用趨勢及實作課程。"},{"start":2126.44,"end":2146.579,"text":"那今年預計辦理27個班期已經開班19班那明年預計再規劃56個班期另外透過公司部門標竿實踐案例的分享展示AI落地技術實務健學部分今年規劃5個班期已經都完成了那明年預計再辦理6個班期"},{"start":2149.417,"end":2178.969,"text":"在公務機關應用AI工作環及公務機關AI應用成果競賽部分這一部分是委由事務部來規劃辦理本總處配合該部的規劃進行跨部會合作共同促進各部會積極導入AI應用為了積極培養具備AI專業知識與應用能力政府人才總處規劃AI政府人才發展策略在114年掀起規劃階段將AI納入公務人員每年必須完成"},{"start":2179.489,"end":2183.235,"text":"學習時數的範圍及規劃公務AI學習地圖及認證體系在115年到119年推動落實階段則以公務AI應用發展四大方面智慧轉型、低碳永續"},{"start":2195.333,"end":2196.974,"text":"並希望各位委員繼續予以支持以上謝謝"},{"start":2233.41,"end":2247.761,"text":"主席、各位委員今天應邀列席貴委員會就數位發展部推動政府機關導入AI提升效能提出報告向各位委員請益還請各位委員不吝示教"},{"start":2249.342,"end":2273.293,"text":"AI就全球面臨高齡化及少子化的趨勢．勞動力遞減．無法因應傳統與人力為基礎的政府服務由於AI的技術蓬勃發展．為提升政府運作效率．帶來全新的機會政府可以運用AI強大的資料分析．及智慧化決策輔助能力．優化政府運作流程．並加速政府運作效能"},{"start":2274.253,"end":2291.168,"text":"然而AI也衍生了個人隱私衝擊及數位落差的問題因此政府必須針對這些問題加以重視與因應以下我會報告政府AI發展戰略計畫就速發布作為我國自費政府"},{"start":2292.209,"end":2313.734,"text":"政策波化與協調運作的角色．遵循賴總統科技數位導入數位新社會的數位政見．以及行政院國家發展計畫創新經濟智慧國家的施政目標．以下我們會報告五年期的AI發展戰略計畫正在報行政院審定．該計畫有五大戰略．第一就是"},{"start":2314.614,"end":2332.406,"text":"發展智慧化的為民服務在這個項目裡面最主要是有關政府的智慧客服讓民眾可以用問的就可以輕鬆的取得AI的各種政府服務包含的智慧櫃檯、智慧秘書等等的AI補助項目"},{"start":2334.768,"end":2362.184,"text":"建構自動化行政服務自動化行政服務是希望能引導政府機關利用AI技術協助公務同仁辦理常規繁雜及耗時工作比如協助文書處理與資料匯編助手或系統建置與資安維護的資安助手讓同仁可以聚焦於特定業務需要AI補助"},{"start":2363.157,"end":2390.413,"text":"作為輔助決策的特定業務第三,要完備AI的資料與模型因為政府的資料經緯架構需要強化隱私強化技術我們也必須確認在安全無疑的狀況下及去識別化的前提下讓政府的高品質業務資料能夠跨機關傳輸運用因此作為政府發展特定業務的AI模型的訓練基礎例如"},{"start":2391.233,"end":2414.826,"text":"內政、衛福、經濟、稅務等業務領域在此數位部會確保AI模型在補助政府業務的穩定表現第4打造數位平權的智慧服務由於AI技術必須考慮所有利害關係人的需求特別是高齡長者、身障人士、新住民等弱勢族群因此速發部在"},{"start":2416.302,"end":2436.239,"text":"鼓勵政府開發AI服務時必須符合無障礙設計．並定期邀請民眾進行應用性測試．以完成AI的回饋意見．讓所有人能夠平等享用這些數位服務最後一點就是後持AI應用的基礎環境由於AI需要"},{"start":2438.171,"end":2452.62,"text":"除了算力以外,也需要許多資料共通的環境,讓各機關可安全有效率地取得資料,並投注資源提升政府網路及通訊環境,因此擴大政府網路頻寬與資安防護"},{"start":2455.262,"end":2470.444,"text":"變成是非常重要的議題。蘇巴部也會與人事總處、公務人員保訓會等人力培訓機關合作,設計適當的AI技術與管理課程以培植公務人員具備AI能力與數位素養"},{"start":2475.226,"end":2492.162,"text":"上述政策提出AI發展配套措施．包括訂定公佈人智慧應用手冊．辦理政府AI人力人賠作業．推動數據公寓及隱私強化應用．發展AI產品與系統評測機制"},{"start":2495.685,"end":2514.199,"text":"以及根據國科會所公布的AI基本法我們會規劃AI風險的分類框架這些做法都是為了要讓政府能夠保障AI的安全並能夠穩定的運行速發部透過這些"},{"start":2521.554,"end":2543.354,"text":"這些配套措施是為了要引導政府三用AI技術以智慧科技促進公共領域的創新便捷服務並同時能夠保障推動平權與保障共榮以上報告 進行大院指教 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝崔次長那麼其餘列席報告機關如無口頭補充報告請大家參閱書面"},{"start":2553.186,"end":2574.049,"text":"好那接下來呢我們機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃委員國昌質詢"},{"start":2586.793,"end":2588.077,"text":"謝謝主席有請人事長請人事長總召長"},{"start":2594.125,"end":2620.539,"text":"喂 董事長早上一次詢答的時候我有請教你我們人事總處在繁複的人事法規當中我們花了納稅人的錢投入了預算建立了AI人事法規的生成系統在上一次詢答的過程當中我本來是想要跟你確認這個查詢系統的成效如何"},{"start":2624.281,"end":2631.337,"text":"針對這個查詢系統的人效的成效目前人事總處自己評估有沒有達到效應"},{"start":2633.645,"end":2657.362,"text":"我跟總召報告一下,上次總召有提到一個重點就是希望既然人事總處在規劃ChampGVP分兩個部分,是不是要開放給一般民眾,那個等一下再說你們針對目前自己在處理人事的同仁用這個AI生成系統的人事法規查詢系統,目前評估成效如何?"},{"start":2658.281,"end":2677.4,"text":"呃成效大概傳統一般伸手在查的話本來大概要一個小時現在可以縮短到10分鐘好沒關係齁你們針對這個成效到底是怎麼評估的到底是怎麼評估的會後提供一個資料給我好嗎好沒問題因為你上次講齁說用了這個系統時間可以節省40%到50%"},{"start":2681.664,"end":2703.581,"text":"那我回去就很有興趣嘛因為我們在訂任何的KPI的時候那你要直接具體的講時間縮短40到50那你要有個衡量的基準嘛不是空口說白話嘛那這個人事法規生程式的AI查詢系統一天一天啊 它的capacity可以查詢幾折"},{"start":2706.271,"end":2712.082,"text":"因為現在是牽涉到我們跟他注用Token的費用我們一天大概300個Token"},{"start":2714.028,"end":2742.215,"text":"那每一天300個Token都有用完是不是目前大概是220左右220到250之間那等於是300還沒有用盡嘛還沒有用盡你把這個系統開始以後到今天為止每一天使用Token的次數會後提供資料給我好嗎好因為我喜歡看白紙黑字的東西我喜歡看數字說話我不喜歡空口說白話"},{"start":2743.775,"end":2768.516,"text":"因為你們沒有開放給一般人使用即使是我都沒有辦法去檢證這個AI查詢系統是不是像你們所說的有這麼好用有這麼正確所以我就去我們立法院人事處請教了我請教了我們的立法院人事處的主任人事長你知不知道我們立法院的人事處有沒有在用這個系統"},{"start":2770.191,"end":2782.868,"text":"我目前只開放行政院所屬還有前續部跟考試院哪有啊你明明就有開放給立法院你還發函給立法院要立法院派人去做教育訓練"},{"start":2785.936,"end":2803.085,"text":"人事長拜託你在國會詢答的時候你不知道可以說不知道啦但不要信口開河啊你們自己都發寒了叫立法院的人事處派員去參加教育訓練阿你如果沒有開放給他們他們去參加教育訓練是參加好玩的喔"},{"start":2805.633,"end":2828.428,"text":"我這裡要跟委員報告一件事情花文給立法院的應該是前續部花文轉我們沒有直接邀他所以立法院的人人事處的人能不能用就是可以用對嘛那你怎麼會說沒有開放給他們用因為我們沒有直接花文給他胡扯來公務員可不可以擔任有限公司的股東"},{"start":2835.473,"end":2860.991,"text":"不能不能嗎對持股有限制嗎持股不能超過10%你確定嗎這個再確認一下好我直接跟你講啦因為我自己不能用嘛我只能去拜託第一個我請教我們立法院人事處的人他們有沒有在用他們跟我說他們通通都沒有在用"},{"start":2862.577,"end":2864.819,"text":"我自己回答我請立法院人事處的人用因為我不能用嘛"},{"start":2885.595,"end":2907.543,"text":"那你們控管只有人事處的人可以用所以我就請他們用啦那我就請他們幫我打一個問題上去啊公務員可不可以擔任有限公司的股東啊他同時勾了法規跟函式啊出來的答案的結果如同我上面PVT上面所示啊來人事長這個AI查詢系統提供的答案正不正確"},{"start":2913.262,"end":2929.592,"text":"這個本來是不能超過10%現在已經有修正法律已經修正了所以這個提供的答案並不正確嗎是吧因為這個是配合服務法的修正這一個是舊規定對啊服務法什麼時候修正的"},{"start":2934.369,"end":2956.424,"text":"我直接跟你講不要浪費時間啊2021年6月22你這個系統什麼時候建置的去年建置的嘛那你去年建置今年上線結果2022年修法都還沒有update要再多加油啦是再多加油啦來請那個矯正署的署長來矯正署署長請"},{"start":2967.27,"end":2986.439,"text":"委員好 署長好我先之前八德外易間我們的新建統包工程案是24億那這個八德外易間新建統包工程案本來什麼時候要完成"},{"start":2987.762,"end":3003.844,"text":"報告委員我們大概預定是今年的年底按照7月的規範什麼時候要完成他已經比較遲遠一段時間了不好意思請你針對問題回答按照7月的規範他什麼時候要完成"},{"start":3005.339,"end":3034.211,"text":"一百一十一年一百一十一年那2022年要完成嘛現在已經2024年了吧是今年年底我們爭取能夠順利脫了這麼久的理由是什麼因為他場上之間有經營權的爭議場上之間經營權的爭議跟政府有關係嗎因為他沒有錢給他的分包那有時候分包不願意出工受到影響我的意思是啦"},{"start":3035.356,"end":3045.023,"text":"他們既然承包了政府的標案他們就要按契約履行嘛這是基本的觀念沒有錯吧是沒有按契約履行我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":3047.27,"end":3047.55,"text":"我跟署長交換意見"},{"start":3068.171,"end":3088.265,"text":"要不要終止契約或採取其他契約上面主張權利什麼樣的方式我絕對尊重行政機關的判斷但問題是什麼但問題是他們按照契約該履行哪些項目就要履行哪些項目因為我之前接到檢舉我就覺得很奇怪他檢舉的內容是說"},{"start":3090.816,"end":3116.183,"text":"他的外意見我們在監獄的出入口是不是有一個三道門的管制?是有這個三道門的管制最重要的目的跟機能是什麼?介入安全管控出入人員他同一個時間可以同時開啟嗎?不行不行嗎?不行那我上次我夏天的時候我花時間去看就看"},{"start":3118.562,"end":3138.699,"text":"這個三道門的管制啊根本沒有辦法正常運作我是在今年夏天的時候去看的到目前為止這個缺失改善了嗎現在目前是改善當中但是還沒完成改善多久了"},{"start":3142.57,"end":3166.607,"text":"我跟署長交換概念時間我全部都列出來了嘛他本來2022年3月就要完成結果拖到2023年的3月現在是2024年的10月等於是長達一年多的時間當中這三道門的管制沒有發揮他應有的功能講形同虛設話可能太重了啦"},{"start":3167.662,"end":3185.489,"text":"但是署長作為矯正署的大家長應該知道那三道門的管制在整個監所、戒護上面、安全上面他扮演的核心功能嗎?是那現在拖了一年多到現在10月這麼基本的功能還沒有辦法發揮署長你覺得還需要多久的時間?"},{"start":3188.048,"end":3216.32,"text":"我們會盡快來督導所屬機關依法令來辦理有必要我們會依企業來計劃相關的罰則從去年3月到現在10月你覺得有符合你剛剛所講的請他們盡快嗎盡快已經盡快超過一年半了我跟署長交換一下概念這不是開玩笑的事情"},{"start":3218.452,"end":3236.742,"text":"報告委員我們機關絕對會積極來跟廠商要求辦理但是有一些部分是我們機關他沒辦法去掌控的因素請委員可以諒解這個當然機關自己沒有辦法修才會找廠商嘛現在我只有一個問題啊"},{"start":3238.997,"end":3257.768,"text":"這個沒有辦法正常發揮的功能在介護上面啊形成了重大的漏洞拖延了一年多大概還要拖延多久我其實只有這個問題而已因為我們總不可能說政府機關廠商事情沒有做到我們一而再再而三的讓他演嘛"},{"start":3259.409,"end":3260.41,"text":"年底前我們盡力來完成"},{"start":3287.987,"end":3305.809,"text":"那個同仁都很辛苦啦這個我了解啦廠商該做的事情沒有做結果竟然同仁是人力輔助那我就只有一個問題啦花納稅人的錢搞了一個這麼大的工程這個核心的部分拖了一年多都沒有辦法完成"},{"start":3306.59,"end":3323.738,"text":"那到底還要再讓那個廠商拖多久時間的關係啦 署長可以去巴德外一間因為我現場去現看過我也跟他們交換過意見我的立場很簡單你們就按照契約該怎麼主張就怎麼主張"},{"start":3324.838,"end":3350.703,"text":"不要放水那第二個更重要的事情是安全介護上面這麼大的漏洞這麼嚴重的事情廠商如果如果沒有能力處理的話就按照企業的規定找人來幫他把他處理完這樣可以嗎是的謝謝委員OK好謝謝好謝謝黃委員謝謝周署長接下來有請沈委員發會質詢"},{"start":3366.625,"end":3387.063,"text":"主席有請我們人事長請說人事長委員長人事長早我想今天我們主席安排這個議程有關政府機關導入AI提升效能的這個議程這個如果人事長的印象這是在兩個禮拜前9月30"},{"start":3390.014,"end":3414.831,"text":"我們這個人事總處的業務報告的時候本席在這裡花了10分鐘的時間整個質詢的時間就在跟這個人事長討論有關政府使用AI的所以可能是我跟主席的所見略同或者是主席受到本席的啟發知道說這個我們人總在這個政府導入這個AI裡面扮演的核心角色"},{"start":3416.806,"end":3437,"text":"那這個上次我花了10分鐘也提出了三個要求那這個是不是人事長會擔心說那我是不是上個禮拜兩個禮拜前全部都問完了今天不知道問什麼了不過其實10分鐘是只短情長我們有關AI的部分我今天還是有很多要請教人事長"},{"start":3438.678,"end":3464.986,"text":"那這個我想這個主席安排這樣的議程很重要也是因為這一屆我們本屆的內閣在520成立的時候就宣示本屆的內閣就是一個行動AI創新內閣那也就是說換句話說啦從剛剛講到現在我們人事總處就是在本屆內閣裡面扮演最核心的角色也就是我們這個政府使用設成是AI的核心角色那這個"},{"start":3467.43,"end":3485.802,"text":"這個所以在520宣誓之後呢在6月6號我們行政院也合訂了有關提升行政院公務人員人工智慧智能實施計畫對不對對6月6號合訂了齁其中有五大內容這五大內容裡面有三大內容是我們人事總處的職責兩大內容是出發部的職責對不對"},{"start":3489.522,"end":3505.029,"text":"所以上一次的質詢裡面我就針對這個三這個我們人總的這個三大這內容的業務提出三個要求第一個就是把AI計畫要這個他的成果要定期盤點"},{"start":3506.309,"end":3522.157,"text":"成果的部分要定期盤點,要檢討。第二個,把AI列入公務人員學習必修課程,這個人事長記得吧。第三,把AI納入115年度原額評鑑計畫當中,這個人事長也承諾了,對不對?是。好,那這個"},{"start":3528.649,"end":3548.916,"text":"也就是說我們這個這次那個編列的這個號稱編列百億AI預算並且合訂了這樣子的一個實施內容但是我們知道說除了這個AI的這個業務除了我們人種以外我們其他速發部我們的速發部跟國科會也扮演重要的角色"},{"start":3550.523,"end":3559.146,"text":"那以我的了解我們國科會我們現在目前的人工智慧基本法是國科會主管對不對是主席是不是請國科會副主委來請國科會副主委請"},{"start":3569.335,"end":3593.712,"text":"副主委我時間有限所以要趕快講我們這個AI基本法草案我們在7月15號預告開始預告60天應該是在9月13完成預告了那期間呢也有許多這個民間團體包括世改會包括跆拳會都對我們這個AI基本法的草案在預告期間提出了一些建議"},{"start":3594.893,"end":3615.946,"text":"包括這個個人隱私的問題啦數位落差的問題等等這些部分請問一下副主委我們在接下來這個草案送冤我們有沒有會針對這些部分再做檢討報告委員這個部分我們已經納入這個考量當中那也修正在我們的基本法草案裡面有修正嗎很好很好那這個"},{"start":3617.931,"end":3629.185,"text":"我們在AI基本法在立法以前還沒有完成立法之前我目前行政院是使用行政指導原則在進行有關AI的使用管控"},{"start":3637.655,"end":3660.611,"text":"我們在上一年有一個AI的使用的一個所屬機關使用生成物質AI的這個參考指引有第一個參考指引對參考指引這個是行政指導原則行政指導原則那另外有關操作的部分有操作的指導也有這個各項AI管理指引技術指南就技術的部分有這個技術指南那這個"},{"start":3664.349,"end":3672.373,"text":"這個我看了這個國科會的基本法草案齁在公告預告期間的看了這個草案齁總共內容18條啦齁18條裡面呢我們盤點這18條裡面總共有13條他開頭三個字都一樣是哪三個字主委欸副主委來"},{"start":3684.335,"end":3710.729,"text":"政府應也就是說在基本法裡面這個18條裡面有13條都是政府應幹嘛政府應該幹嘛政府應該幹嘛總共13條都是規範政府的啦那這個有這麼多政府應應做的事情這個我就要請問人事長這個我們最核心的角色我們這裡人工智慧法裡面這麼多政府應作為的事項我們的人力足夠嗎現有的人力"},{"start":3725.451,"end":3738.538,"text":"我們希望未來每一個公務員都有成功智慧的DNA檢驗所有經驗,包含我們之前犯罪好好,沒有關係這個這個人事長未來這個基本法通過之後政府應該作為的事情有這麼多了以現有的人力來講我認為這個人力一定的調整是勢在必行"},{"start":3740.636,"end":3752.464,"text":"不管是公務人員的員額也好不管是約聘僱人員也好你未來政府有這麼多政府應作為的事項我們應該提早就我們的這個中央機關總員額法應該要提早做這個檢討還有我們有關這個約聘僱人員我們本會"},{"start":3764.972,"end":3771.756,"text":"本委員會在這個今年5月的時候有提出一個臨時提案請我們人總提出有關這個有關AI的這個約聘僱人員人力使用檢討結果我看了你們檢討的書面報告基本上是沒有檢討啦你們只是把現狀列出來而已啦沒有檢討未來的做法"},{"start":3784.483,"end":3795.768,"text":"所以這部分請我因為時間關係我請請這個人事長我們這個人事緣和調整在這個基本法架構之下絕對是勢在必行的所以請我們人總提早因應好不好謝謝謝謝委員那接下來另外一個比較比較這個我個人認為是不是應該政府應該考慮的這個我不曉得是國科會的職權還是人總的職權這是有關這個美國"},{"start":3811.806,"end":3822.665,"text":"美國在這個今年的這個3月28號由這個賀錦麗副總統他提出了而且已經開始實施就是每個政府機關都必須設置AI長"},{"start":3824.69,"end":3848.125,"text":"人工智慧長就是這個Chief AI Officer這是CAIO他們現在也已經開始美國的這個包括他們的國防部包括他們的網路安全局都已經開始都已經設置了這個AI長而且他們是要求未來每一個機關都必須設置AI長"},{"start":3850.393,"end":3875.94,"text":"這個部分我們有沒有考慮是不是國科會先講我們在基本法架構裡面有沒有這個部分報告委員基本法應該沒有規範到這個沒有規範到這個部分所以要請人事總長這個要考量如果要考量這個我再看到這個我們國科會的基本法裡面這個列在如果要設這個AI長列在哪裡"},{"start":3877.079,"end":3883.465,"text":"第一個,這是我們現在基本法草案第12條政府應建立AI應用負責機制這個主管機關應該就是人種啦報告委員,那是速發部啦應用的負責機制是速發部嗎?"},{"start":3896.347,"end":3907.937,"text":"整個應用在政府機關的應用政策的規劃推動是在速發部那人總扮演的角色是公務人員人工智慧的培訓在公務人員這個區塊我剛提的這個美國所設置的這個人工智慧長AI長"},{"start":3917.432,"end":3938.297,"text":"我們有沒有考慮因為現在事實上我們資安我們在各個政府機關現在都有設置資安長這個是已經各個政府機關都有設置我想AI長的部分是因為那個人工智慧基本法裡面現在沒有規定現在沒有規定對但是按照剛剛這樣大家討論的結果有關政府建立AI應用負責機制"},{"start":3942.34,"end":3957.393,"text":"我們在修法的過程中不斷的在討論是要分級還是分類因為歐盟是分級美國是分類分類的基礎就是說不同的政府機關我理解我是請我們速發部"},{"start":3960.322,"end":3980.667,"text":"能夠在考慮這個未來這個AI的這個使用上面在評估確認AI應用於哪些用途他對影響這個國民的安全跟權利這個部分設置在各機關設置AI長我個人認為是有必要的他不一定是常設的但是他可以像資安長一樣他是一個專責負責的人好不好我們請蘇發部來研議那蘇發部既然上來我就順便問蘇發部一個問題"},{"start":3988.849,"end":4004.58,"text":"我看到你們在今年9月30號這個我們人事長跟我們這個國客會請回啦最後就是再請問訴發部我在9月30號看到你們表示齁你們預計在12月釋出政府機關AI應用指引對不對對"},{"start":4006.121,"end":4021.147,"text":"那我要請問就是說你們要釋出將來12月預計要釋出的這個政府機關AI使用指引應用指引跟現行的行政院及所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引有什麼不一樣"},{"start":4022.092,"end":4041.029,"text":"跟委員報告他是一個上位跟上位的指導概念還是一個補充的概念還是一個取而代之的概念用這個新的公佈的指引來取代舊的指引是什麼樣的就AI這件事情當初內閣是決定說指引先行"},{"start":4041.71,"end":4063.815,"text":"那指引先行後面再立法那指引先行就是說國科會他先訂了一個指引但是因為這個指引沒辦法包含各部會不同的使用情境比如說也就是說我這樣理解你的意思是說現在現行的已經公佈在實施的行政院及所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引"},{"start":4072.037,"end":4091.526,"text":"行政院提的這個指引是管制類的然後我們提的是應用類那這個應用類必須有各部會的應用指引先出來以後我們再去取也就是並行的就對了目前事實上我看到相當多的部會都已經都已經有訂定指引了但還沒有全部了"},{"start":4091.966,"end":4109.083,"text":"對,因為這個是一個有button up的過程,就是各部會根據自己的應用情境去訂出應用指引,然後抒發部這邊會再做彙整所以說所屬機關現行的這個是,你們說你們所做的是應用類的,那現行的是什麼類的?管制類的"},{"start":4111.653,"end":4128.326,"text":"好 這個部分我會看你們到時候所提出來這個政府機關AI應用指引我看這個內容跟現行的指引之間的有沒有相關的競合或者是這個抵觸的地方我再來觀察好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝沈委員 謝謝次長接下來有請羅委員自強質詢"},{"start":4141.485,"end":4161.921,"text":"主席有請蘇人事長跟薛次長好請人事長跟薛次長委員早蘇發布的報告裡提到說將提出5年期的AI發展戰略計畫現在正在報請行政院核定對不對對那想請問這個是預計在115年啟動那我想請問次長5年的計畫預計編列多少的經費"},{"start":4174.741,"end":4191.544,"text":"190億那我想請教一下因為AI發展牽涉到很多政府部門那速發部的角色當然也重要那我想請問次長那速發部明年編列明年編列多少預算來推動AI的發展"},{"start":4199.915,"end":4206.907,"text":"我們明年是十幾億但是在速發部的預算那很多是跟其他部會一起提對好謝謝"},{"start":4208.396,"end":4226.785,"text":"老實說跟次長說從速發部過去表現來看其實我對你們推動AI的能力是相當沒有信心的那比如說AI發展戰略計畫五大戰略裡面有一項叫做發展智慧化為民服務對不對"},{"start":4228.464,"end":4257.325,"text":"那是要利用AI客服來協助民眾查報查找政府服務那目前速發部推動的強化智慧政府數位發展計畫其實就是這個計畫有相當的重合度嘛對不對就是過去的計畫並不會特別強調AI的部分所以最大的差異是導入AI建網之來啦我就先看你過去到底做了什麼才能看你未來到底能做什麼"},{"start":4258.51,"end":4260.694,"text":"那事實上在書發部剛送進來的114年預算書裡面顯示書發部過去的成果是用"},{"start":4267.039,"end":4295.759,"text":"這個﹖"},{"start":4296.777,"end":4321.057,"text":"這個我可不可以請這個蘇政司的司長回覆因為他牽涉到各部會的智能小幫手你說什麼跟誰請這個司長回覆好來沒關係來司長請說委員好因為這一個我們115年開始那個計畫是五年期的計畫所以我們編一個我跟你講我現在是先看前面的表現啦所以我們114年我們就先有個銜接的好啦沒關係我來問齁這個智能小幫手什麼時候上線的啊"},{"start":4321.567,"end":4338.022,"text":"而智能小幫手我們是預計今年底是在我們如果是講的是我們速發布自己的話我們是在今年底在我們的整個路口網站上線我講之前的啊你們之前就有啦111年11月上線連自己上線過的東西都不知道不會吧"},{"start":4338.707,"end":4365.714,"text":"我們那個智能小幫桶應該是純粹智能小幫桶他應該沒有到112年底你們這一套的系統你知道累積使用人數是多少嗎111年11月到112年底大概一年時間左右啦我們的入口網大概每年大概是十幾萬人左右我講的是這一個系統不是講你的入口網站好不好你不要把拿你的整個速發部入口網站來蒙混"},{"start":4366.772,"end":4388.849,"text":"你速發入口網站一年十幾萬的瀏覽人數你也不要驕傲你覺得驕傲嗎?次長你也不覺得驕傲吧?次長你上來好了啦我看他也答不出來所以我跟你說啦使用人次累計是4096人次啦次長你滿意嗎?你滿意嗎?"},{"start":4398.103,"end":4414.419,"text":"一百一十一年十一月到十二月底使用的是一千兩百三十九次算起來一百一十二年全年使用是兩千五百八十七次平均每個月兩百三十八次每天不到八次點擊率點閱"},{"start":4417.463,"end":4428.63,"text":"所以部長 次長為什麼要拿這個問題問你總知道了吧你知道這個112年度所謂的強化智慧政府數位發展計畫編列多少錢嗎我告訴你啦4149萬啦"},{"start":4434.264,"end":4456.22,"text":"然後可是你現在照你過去的這個績效用全國規模的預算推出的這個智能小幫手服務人士連一個里我們大概去隨便一個里的人數都比你多那這樣子的話我覺得你的智能小幫手先提升一下我們書發部本身的智能一下好嗎4000多萬先去改善書發部的智能"},{"start":4458.243,"end":4467.672,"text":"這是為什麼今天我要跟你講說我們當然支持政府來去打造台灣但現在總統說的阿要把台灣打造成AI智慧之島阿"},{"start":4469.468,"end":4491.173,"text":"可是如果說你過去蘇發布的績效是這個樣子的話那說真的我怎麼對你未來的績效有信心呢打造AI之島當然啦國科會有責任啦對不對我看我們人事總處也在努力要把政府的那個系統在怎麼樣去AI化可是蘇發布是重中之重沒錯吧"},{"start":4493.079,"end":4497.043,"text":"市長我跟你講你講的都要藉口啦4000多個點擊次兩年齁真的是有夠難看的我直接講啦"},{"start":4518.459,"end":4546.212,"text":"那你等於是一個你花了四千多萬欸一個點擊次是一萬元的成本欸服務一個民眾上去點一次一萬塊欸不是這個意思那你跟我講那個現在也不實用因為現在有新的技術出來打掉了要重練了那我問你過去你就你一個點擊次要一萬塊啊我說真的我未來怎麼對你有信心呢我想書發部的揮霍預算早就惡名昭彰了也不是這件事啦"},{"start":4547.962,"end":4574.231,"text":"2022年成立嘛大家都希望書發部能夠讓台灣更智慧化數位化推動AI打擊詐騙齁期待很高啦對不對當年嘛對不對可是立法院給了很多的預算事實上你也知道書發部大概是民眾齁最不滿意的部會之一啦為什麼你光像打詐慘不能賭然後很多的東西你知道王世堅委員怎麼形容你們嗎還記得嗎市長還記得嗎"},{"start":4578.079,"end":4597.185,"text":"我最近記憶力不太好不太好我幫你提醒一下飯桶啊你們是飯桶嗎王世堅委員說你們是飯桶啊我們尊重委員的意見我告訴你不是尊重你們拿出點績效跟行動力證明速發部不是飯桶嘛可以嗎"},{"start":4598.663,"end":4627.464,"text":"我們會努力 謝謝努力啦 證明不是飯桶 是非常低階的努力啦那我再舉個例子 講你揮霍蘇發部今年出國預算幾個 編列多少預算今年應該是 32個啦 預算是3133萬啦所以有人常講蘇發部叫出國部啦國際交流重要 但是我要跟市長說我就先不講別的部門 最重要的國際交流部門應該是哪個部門"},{"start":4628.942,"end":4655.894,"text":"政府裡面?外交部當然是外交部啊外交部今年編了也只有14個出國計畫然後編列2908萬書發部不是不能出國考察交流啦可是你們的計畫是外交部的兩倍然後你們的AI服務人士像我剛剛講的Lililala本業都沒做好一天到晚想出國這難怪人家覺得不服難怪王世堅要罵你們是飯桶嘛"},{"start":4656.514,"end":4663.547,"text":"所以這是你們自己本務要先做好那我要問一下人事長請問國人薪資中位數是多少"},{"start":4665.522,"end":4691.928,"text":"國人的薪資中位數大概六七十萬之間我看到數字是111年是薪資中位數是51.8萬平均月薪4.3萬那是我的看當然你的數字也許有更不一樣的數字你再告訴我我再提供給委員那我想請問一下人事長你知道蘇發布全體職員平均的月薪是多少嗎比4.3萬高還是低高多少你知道嗎"},{"start":4692.668,"end":4720.652,"text":"我肯定知道他一定會比較高啊不然他找不到人對對對好比較高我也認同比較高一點我告訴你啊速發部114年編列預算250百位法定編制員和23位約聘僱編列薪水獎金加給加班費加起來月薪是10.2萬一年是122萬那是國人薪資中位數的2.4倍那你知道比起其他部會高還是低"},{"start":4722.022,"end":4722.042,"text":"請問次長"},{"start":4754.282,"end":4760.588,"text":"我要告訴你的是基本上你如果拿到的比較好的薪水績效就要怎麼樣"},{"start":4762.421,"end":4768.247,"text":"中位數有中位數平均值有平均值的意義阿我要講的是你拿的薪水比一般的民眾高沒錯吧你總不能講不是吧"},{"start":4784.216,"end":4804.944,"text":"平均值你也比較高啦你還在跟我扯沈仁市長速發部現在拿月薪10萬平均值我比一般民眾高有沒有你跟我講按照我最近看的資料是比一般外面的高對啊那你還在跟我扯什麼不要在那邊凹來凹去找藉口人事長都已經打臉你了以上謝謝好謝謝羅委員謝謝沈市長謝謝次長接下來有請林委員私民諮詢"},{"start":4820.06,"end":4848.443,"text":"謝謝主席 請人事長 請蘇人事長委員早 人事長早 人事長我想今天就這個AI的一個效能的問題 我首先來請教人事長 就是我們人事總處就公務人員的AI智能的數位轉型 你都有相關的規劃安排今天的業報也寫得很清楚 但是我在意的是說有關數位落差的問題 也就是說"},{"start":4849.304,"end":4860.295,"text":"你對於這些比較資深的公務人員﹐對於數位化的熟悉度﹐跟我們新進的公務人員﹐他們是不是會產生數位的落差?"},{"start":4862.825,"end":4880.585,"text":"這個現象一定是會的因為現在新進到公務機關服務已經是有2000年次之後的那這些都是屬於數位延伸所以一定會有不一樣的一個程度的差別對對對對於數位化的認識以及他的技能所以你會做培訓嗎你來培訓嗎"},{"start":4883.969,"end":4910.566,"text":"培訓就是事實上我們的主要任務就是所有公務人員的一個培訓那陳盧委員你所了解的吧要把所有的公務人員全部都招訓來開實體課有困難所以我們從9月1號開始我們就開了五門的人工智慧的課程那之前的這6年我們就開人工智慧相關的像RPA的相關人工智慧的一些課程我們陸陸續續都有在開"},{"start":4912.327,"end":4925.217,"text":"委員長你有開這課程培訓課程我了解就是說但是你有沒有考慮到你開這些這個課程啊你有沒有做差異化的培訓你全部招進來但是每個程度不一樣"},{"start":4927.432,"end":4942.537,"text":"我跟委員我跟委員差異化做這個適當的一個訓練差異化大概就是有些是培養種子的部分我們就是有實體課大概3天而且還要有一些考試要取得一個證照"},{"start":4943.237,"end":4958.07,"text":"那如果是一般通識型的話就是我們在我們的公務人力發展中心有一個數位學習課程讓公務人員他自己上去選他有興趣的課題因為這裡面有些是應用面有些"},{"start":4958.67,"end":4977.109,"text":"是委員所關心的可能人工智慧在使用的時候他可能會有一些負面的一個impact對一些衝擊還是對弱勢的因為他可能一輩子都對人工智慧的東西他學習上的障礙那政府應該如何去協助那些"},{"start":4977.689,"end":4997.407,"text":"市長我的意思就是說其實我是建議你啦因為大概程度就真的都不一樣所以你在設計相關的培訓課程啊可能你要做一些差異化的一個課程的設計就你剛才講的啊有些人可能他的這個什麼應該講什麼什麼障礙啊會有這樣的一個學習的一個能力的不一樣"},{"start":4998.923,"end":5017.579,"text":"對他的了解不一樣即便你有通識的一個教育但是當你進入到這個要更深入的課程AI人工智慧課程的一個培訓的時候如果你還是用一樣的課程去做訓練的話會不會造成說人家學習上的一個障礙"},{"start":5018.988,"end":5040.403,"text":"我跟委員報告大概有兩個角度第一個角度是我們課程有一些是屬於出街還有進街還有高街然後出街的課程是否一般公務人員他應該要來學習的然後這裡面有一個很重要我們就是在設計課程設計課程設計很重要"},{"start":5042.725,"end":5052.028,"text":"不要設計的太協助性因為我們希望是用情境式的step by step一步一步來教這樣看 有在看 看有啦不然你用到最協助最理論"},{"start":5058.37,"end":5083.516,"text":"時間關係,我建議在整個課程的設計,對於不同程度學習的太陽的差異,可能要考量課程的設計。另外我再請教一下,我們是否有考量到各機關內部,你是否已經具備相當到位的數位軟體設備?"},{"start":5086.055,"end":5113.549,"text":"他要去訓練那你是不是有他們機關內部他們各種軟硬體的設備是否有到位可以來搭配執行我跟委員報告一下那個假如是在人工智慧方面因為目前市面上可以使用的比如像深層式人工智慧因為有一般的人工智慧還有深層式的那深層式的現在Google Gemini還有其他的"},{"start":5114.029,"end":5114.81,"text":"委員也很清楚"},{"start":5141.544,"end":5161.458,"text":"這些人工智慧尤其生成式的它需要耗用很多的運算資源那以每一個部會內部的現在的resource來講的話坦白講會有不夠那所以樹花部他們也有在規劃或者經濟部他們也有在規劃譬如去買灰打的一些金幣"},{"start":5171.164,"end":5171.184,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5190.766,"end":5219.38,"text":"報告委員我們在數位政府是有一支計畫就是建立政府機關共用的AI平台那在這個平台裡面他就是會用一個API去串接那我們盡量去取得目前市面上各式各樣的各式各樣的大型語言模型那讓各機關在這個階段他他可以選擇他現在要用哪一個平台目前建制的情況怎樣我們請"},{"start":5220.701,"end":5243.977,"text":"蘇政司補充包委員我們現在大概明年第一季可以開始使用明年第一季我想既然要做AI的各部門要做AI的一個智能效應的一個利用跟使用發揮我們的行政效率所以這部分軟硬體的設備你要儘速的把它建置完成所以你預期明年第一季"},{"start":5244.838,"end":5272.844,"text":"明年底還是明年初明年初明年初就會把這些軟體設備把這個建置到位嗎OK好那再請教我們有關於這個治安的問題我想我們經過AI未來這個數位轉型AI之後AI技術的迅速發展與廣泛應用優化我們政府的運作流程並加速政府運作的效能在帶來便利的同時會不會帶來風險"},{"start":5275.104,"end":5288.6,"text":"當然,所以在那個國科會公佈的人工智慧基本法裡面那速發部就必須對這些AI模型去做評測那評測裡面最重要非常重要的一個項目就是治安的風險是"},{"start":5290.041,"end":5317.357,"text":"那目前為止我們對於治安的防護呢有沒有落實到位嚴格把關目前蘇發部已經成立的AI評測中心在治安院已經成立了AI評測中心那也對目前市面上的一些語言模型已經做了一些評測好那我再請教齁這個可能跟人事長沒有有關啦齁人事長學工現在我們未來在系統的運作齁指派作業人員的政策方面我們是既用具有"},{"start":5318.718,"end":5335.077,"text":"專業的我們現在這個就是在我們各機關用的這些公務人員作為這些治安人員的一個的就是安排他來做這個治安的一個管理還是說我們是要編列預算外包給廠商"},{"start":5337.988,"end":5355.96,"text":"這個大概分兩個部分啦第一個就是資安人員上一年年底速發部有提缺到考選部所以今年有入企的9位是屬於資安類科的不過這9位坦白講是不夠用的那其他的會從現有的資訊人員"},{"start":5358.542,"end":5373.115,"text":"他去訓練 樹花部的治安署他有安排一些訓練的課程讓他們取得一些證照能夠來所以我們沒有外包啦齁沒有外包一定要搭配外包一定要搭配外包"},{"start":5373.695,"end":5375.638,"text":"會有不同樣態的這種搭配跟民間企業的搭配的方式"},{"start":5390.238,"end":5411.334,"text":"市長還有那個次長我總結來問 就是說你們是否能夠保證說在治安層面上一定能夠落實嚴格把關杜絕我們的這個資訊不會淪落為犯罪集團的這個作案工具可以做出保證"},{"start":5413.907,"end":5428.319,"text":"我其實不太了解要保證什麼東西就是說你現在整個資安的問題就是說如果沒有辦法再就是你現在要請外包嘛那你外包你能夠保證說這些外包人員他"},{"start":5428.999,"end":5453.658,"text":"不會把我們相關的資訊安全去洩漏出去嗎?了解就是說外包人員會用合約規範然後會用比如說那因為我們目前的法規只能對公務機關的人員跟跟這個行政機跟這個行政法人員所以這個我剛才才會問你嘛如果你要外包你要如何的落實說我們的這些資料不會外洩嗎?"},{"start":5456.22,"end":5459.621,"text":"這個你要嚴格把關我想時間的關係我再問最後一個問題人事總處你在3個會期我詢詢詢問人事長我們對於資安長的聘用或各機關資安長的資格"},{"start":5479.125,"end":5485.989,"text":"你跟我講說你跟數位發展部有合作辦理資安長的共事營這共事營辦了幾期"},{"start":5488.255,"end":5514.069,"text":"這個我們一年辦兩次一年辦兩次每一次有兩期每一次有兩場大概幾個人每次都是大概兩三百人兩三百人所以各部會的所謂的各部會還有地方機關的資安長資安長都會來那這些資安長的資格我想我有問過人事長這個資安長到底是由我們各機關的什麼主管來擔任資安長一般是副首長"},{"start":5515.188,"end":5534.03,"text":"副首長,副首長對資安他了解嗎?這個業務他了解嗎?跟委員報告,就是因為考慮第一個,資安長未必需要所有的資安細節但是他必須對於法尊以及制度要有了解所以他不需要具有資安相關的專業背景"},{"start":5536.292,"end":5558.903,"text":"他需要的背景跟資安人員的背景不一樣所以這是我們在共識營裡面給他上的課最主要就是針對他站在資安其實我是陳剛才審發會委員講的AI長的問題所以說如果你沒有把這個資安長把他的資格去做一個很明確的一個聘用的一個限制的話很可能就是外行領導內行"},{"start":5560.857,"end":5576.714,"text":"不懂治安也可以來當治安長如何領導統一我們最重要的是治安的法尊所以在治安 治安長共事其實這個治安我想不是只有法尊的問題如果這樣子的話任何學法的我跟莊惠雄都可以去擔任了"},{"start":5578.115,"end":5599.204,"text":"所以你要對這個資訊安全要有相當的理解了解有專業的背景所以這部分我是希望你們要做改進啦做改善啦好我們會改善那個公職委員會資安長的未來的不是資安長的聘任啦就是我們資安長是不是什麼副首長來擔任啦那這個副首長是不是有資安的專業背景這你們要去考慮啊"},{"start":5600.949,"end":5601.43,"text":"接下來有請莊委員瑞雄質詢"},{"start":5626.532,"end":5633.895,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們人事長還有我們數位部今天來了次長的 請蘇人事長跟薛次長委員長人事長 次長我今天早上我坐在那個地方 仔細聆聽我從台北市當議員 到屏東 到台東我聽了你們今天講這個議題 我感觸很深我先放給你一個影片 我昨天去的給你看"},{"start":5659.791,"end":5672.135,"text":"這就是南北地鐵路害馬鈴發言團南北地鐵路害馬鈴發言團南北地鐵路害馬鈴發言團南北地鐵路害馬鈴發言團南北地鐵路害馬鈴發言團南北地鐵路害馬鈴發言團南北地鐵路害馬鈴"},{"start":5688.666,"end":5716.622,"text":"傳來會告訴我 我都創好了創好了我告訴我 我們兩個說的地方不一樣這叫做什麼 你們說AIAI就是要精簡嘛人要看我們這樣減淡步利用機器 利用科技減少人力的一個浪費讓民眾有更便利性工人員辦起事情來更順利然後讓老百姓沒有厭圓AI不那麼好"},{"start":5718.2,"end":5720.082,"text":"這就拉到最高分段我剛才有去我剛才去到現場我剛才是要看榮舜我看完榮舜阿台南匯鐵路在那裏沒有走來看要不要休息這就行這就行你跟AI也不好"},{"start":5735.609,"end":5754.274,"text":"但是我要先感謝啦我要先感謝就是說那個人事長對於臺東這一次啊整個國產署人力的一個不足應該要補30億的齁那當然人整個啊跟心水跟體管有那個誘因留住公務人員有那個咳嗽 不能辦事你以為我台東住到的啊跟他現在南島中華住到的他現在就是AI的問題啊現在是欠咳嗽的問題啊"},{"start":5765.967,"end":5782.257,"text":"是不是這樣說 人事長所以我今天在聽就有對我來講很大的衝擊啦我不是說AI內閣不好我不是說整個政府把它數位化不好但是那個面向太廣啦政府的施政有太多的一個地方像這個就要緊緊啦對吧 涉及到公共安全人要去嘛 勤災要去嘛你家屬不夠了 為 地方很多為什麼會承包都會比較慢"},{"start":5794.588,"end":5796.028,"text":"但是這個喊了幾年我期待可以入實但是呢"},{"start":5823.41,"end":5841.857,"text":"政府的施政有太多的方面了要檢討的地方還是很多啦那我特別感謝的就是說你那三年的限制解除掉以後就地方政府或者說我們各個部會裡面用人你說約聘的來 三天來就那個國會談判署你就知道來了三天那工夫是多好啊 你知道嗎你說三天不要再請 嘿把你丟在地方政府水球裡 人有多好人"},{"start":5851.619,"end":5858.624,"text":"所以你就造成很多施政上我們很多人才就沒有辦法繼續留用所以這次把它解除這個限制啊"},{"start":5859.673,"end":5885.928,"text":"表示非常大的贊同跟感謝啦 齁 也是定義改革問題你至少要先讓老百姓沒有怨言你政府施政才有辦法去便利嘛 更順暢嘛 可不是這樣說那所以呢 我們這一次除了補充人力以外 這次我看賴總統去強調了這個整個那個科技數位島跟數位的新社會 著手那個AI的戰略的一個發展我相信那個目標也是一樣 但是我要請教的就是說"},{"start":5887.318,"end":5891.682,"text":"你像譬如說一般國考進來除了你有特別的資訊專長以外你說期待公務人員找很多時間去上很多課或者說讓他們上網自己去學習我不知道這個的誘因夠不夠在我們公務人員繁忙之外可以讓他去多加學習新的技能我不知道社長還是人事長你們有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":5919.065,"end":5943.473,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題啦 我想齁 沒人的改端 我們的做法就是 呃 頂 呃 兩倍前齁 有委員在請教一個問題 是不是公布另外 我們有20點鐘的寫實 有10點鐘的必修 那我們現在跟數碼部在討論 呃 就是從明年1月1號開始 我們在10個鐘頭的必修的 每一個人都要去修1或2個鐘頭"},{"start":5944.733,"end":5944.753,"text":"市長"},{"start":5968.973,"end":5992.026,"text":"人事長剛才這樣說 說你們大家都去上課 增加這些誘因幾個小時我問你們數位部 你們北部 中部 南部都有嘛 對不對東部你又沒有啊 中部沒有有沒有 中部沒有 東部也沒有是嘛 我要跟你說的就是這樣 人事長你說的好 全國"},{"start":5994.531,"end":6010.497,"text":"大家來上課學習我也是跟他說你當母你又欠你這個怎麼辦像你這個怎麼辦我們在說我們常常在說整個政府裡面要把數位政府裡面大家都會拿新加坡來當一個標竿"},{"start":6012.588,"end":6013.268,"text":"第一大部分的課程是線上的"},{"start":6041.343,"end":6052.053,"text":"那東部呢,我們也有一些課程是到各地去開專班那如果有需要的話我們也可以到東部去開專班所以你第一在想就是我從你們的配置裡面你第一個想到的就是東部不需要啊阿不然以後他還沒的不要啦,不要這樣啦,這樣也用批評啦你再笑,那國民黨就把你嚇了,我告訴你"},{"start":6064.347,"end":6086.095,"text":"政府施政真的不能這樣我現在我認兩天我對政客如果有那些越政客越高的都會讓我選中你知道嗎但是總是要為那個地方來做一個發聲你要均衡嘛你要均衡嘛你公務人員的人力其實數值都很高但是因為你中央一個決策這樣下去以後人家覺得說我們這裡是話外之地這不對啊"},{"start":6088.855,"end":6118.237,"text":"這不對,我是覺得蘇衛部這個地方要檢討這樣的一個政策裡面不夠周延我們會回去處理今天啦,今天要處理啦那其實喔我一直會覺得說你若說你師伯有這邊西部有這樣的一個規劃其實你也要去考量到東部公務人員他去上課他去學習這樣的一個便利性啊不然你覺得叫台東叫法輪的公務人員你如果招來台北"},{"start":6118.917,"end":6123.182,"text":"你知不知道台東到台北一個字牆要多長時間?4點40分鐘但是火車站不是在台東縣政府走出來就可以搭上火車"},{"start":6138.851,"end":6139.231,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6159.614,"end":6183.662,"text":"那我接下來 那個 次長請回阿 這個不能開玩笑好不好齁 次長我要請教你就是說 現在大家在講 阿不不不 那個人事長齁 人事長次長請回 就是說 這次 大家在講 體育署會升格這個問題你從你的嘴巴裡面 你都很不喜歡講升格 我就覺得很奇怪阿就是說 不管啦 不管你認為那到底是不是升格啦"},{"start":6184.762,"end":6185.944,"text":"人事總署對於體育部未來人力的規劃 假設叫做運動部"},{"start":6203.513,"end":6222.398,"text":"我委員報告齁,不是給我們給一些而已,那是一個專心的部會,所以人力在編制上在人力上他是一個全新的思考,不過有一件事情我們會先處理,本來體育署學校體育教育的體育場館在做的那些"},{"start":6223.238,"end":6225.741,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6244.394,"end":6251.278,"text":"我會講啊你一百三十五你說要結一百五你要考慮到一個問題啦原來體育署的業務然後又要回到教育部人又再唱回去這個不是加減乘除的問題啦"},{"start":6276.38,"end":6282.744,"text":"在整個我們現在教育部本部原額是567人喔公務預算原額是1540喔對不對1540還多多的以教育部本身目前的預算原額是489位阿不然你給我勾"},{"start":6296.516,"end":6307.298,"text":"運動部成立,人差不多存多少?你說135,你再給他150,教育部還要拿多少錢?教育部拿整整幾個而已,拿整整幾個而已那你的預估,假設下個月運動部成立,假設,假設,你認為他緣合是多少?人手?人手我真的要再看... 差不多嘛,就簡單嘛,現在135嘛,現在135你說要再補100多嘛?"},{"start":6325.319,"end":6344.17,"text":"應該是我們最要一百的議員 因為他還有競技 全民運動 還有運動產業是 我的意思就是說 那你原來隸屬在教育部的這些人 他教育部又把你拿走嘛 你還是要扣掉嘛"},{"start":6344.89,"end":6370.373,"text":"你若要報一百個到時候你後裔的絕對不會一百個嘛你說十個嗎?那你如果請假你也只剩九十而已啊對啊九十啊 剩下不敢我怎麼報後裔啊這樣你兩百多個人 今天可以變成一個部我 委員報告 第一個改端說這個啦我們一個新的部會給我們成立喔你一群要到編制研學 假設三百個不可能一群就三百個 那就差不多兩天到兩天"},{"start":6372.034,"end":6388.7,"text":"但是我今天重點我要結束啦 喔 抱歉就是說我們今天在講說AI政府啦 齁 要把它給數位化啦其實談到的都是在講人事 其實另外一個意涵是人事上的一個精簡啦但是你有多少部會 是缺人捏海巡你欠人 警察你欠人 機站要勘察你要欠人齁 你說我要去匯勘的 我要去套土的 我這些都要人工來捏"},{"start":6402.415,"end":6404.757,"text":"我這人工不是人工智慧我都認為這個很衝突的概念所以你們要考慮清楚不是這樣在大家辦公室講講會講後來AI內閣我們全部以後都導入AI我們各組織我們來授聲"},{"start":6424.773,"end":6430.098,"text":"另外一邊就 底下就跟你喊 我沒人 我沒人 我欠人 我工作做不出來 要面面具具到 不要開玩笑先抹而後凍 要做一個決策出來之後 絕對不能去 因為一個決策 到最後你要的 大家會認為說 啊你不是說想要 政府不是要去新加坡結果咧 咳 擠開了之後 人 不欠 尤其是身體 人 又欠"},{"start":6452.751,"end":6462.212,"text":"那個民間的反撲特別要小心好不好謝謝委員謝謝專委員 謝謝人事長接下來有請翁委員小林諮詢"},{"start":6478.893,"end":6504.944,"text":"主席好我想今天在質詢部會所長之前呢我想講一個問題就是我們知道其實每一次的質詢這個所有的立法委員都很認真我們大家都希望能夠早一點就能夠看到各部門所提出來的這個專案專題報告書可是以我們這一次的開會其實首先我要先謝謝我們的召委這個宗嘉斌召委他"},{"start":6507.35,"end":6531.418,"text":"指示了今天這個相關部會單位要來報告政府機關導入AI提升效能的這個議題這個議題其實很重要那當然我們在看到這個這次議程的安排主要是以人事總處為主及相關部會那我當時以為說可能就是人總吧速發部啊經濟部等等那些單位結果沒想到我今天來的時候呢一下子拿了12份的報告"},{"start":6533.026,"end":6558.453,"text":"對 所以這個部分我不知道說是不是昭緯是之前就已經有通知相關的部會機關今天都要來報告嗎來 那麼跟公務員說明一下因為上週原定我們通常一般在星期三或星期四最遲星期四會確定下週議程一邊發開通知但因為上週四是因為國慶日沒有上班那在上週三的議程聯絡後在上週五就做了更動"},{"start":6559.233,"end":6586.461,"text":"所以人總的報告提前到星期一那這個過程當中我們也希望人總能夠將所有相關有AI導入的各機關名單提供所以因此我們在星期五的時候在很短的時間內又通知了相關的部會前來報告所以各機關的作業的準備時間大概只有星期五下班後到星期一的上班這段時間那提供的資料比較倉促可能造成委員在質詢應用上的不便也請多包涵"},{"start":6586.94,"end":6606.854,"text":"好 謝謝周偉德說明我們其實同樣的都是禮拜五指導就是這個議程那我必須講就是各部會機關因為看起來你們今天報告其實頁數非常少啦大概少的話是三四頁但理論上這些東西都是你們應該stand by這個例行性的都要準備好相關的資料"},{"start":6608.95,"end":6625.876,"text":"週末假日我都還在家裡面認真的讀報告可是今天看到另外還有十幾份的報告書我想我們委員不是神童我們沒有辦法一下子看這麼多報告書就知道說你們到底在做了些什麼"},{"start":6626.876,"end":6632.28,"text":"對 這也很浪費你們的時間 寫了報告書幾乎委員沒有時間看所以我希望說是不是可以自此之後這個各機關至少都能夠在 如果說禮拜五才公告的議程的話那可能禮拜六禮拜天要提早就要給委員而不是我們當場的時候才拿到像法務部 矯正署 農業部 經管會 環境部就是你們今天早上才送的報告啊"},{"start":6649.093,"end":6662.989,"text":"這樣子其實是非常不對的所以我首先我想要講這件事情好那接下來的話就開始進行我今天的質詢那麼請人事﹖請說人事長人事長還有﹖委員長卓次長請卓次長好下一頁"},{"start":6668.106,"end":6669.307,"text":"我想我這次其實也看了經濟部還有人種、數位、數法部等所提出來的AI相關的業務報告書那我核對了一下這幾份業務報告書裡面其實我發現還是有蠻多高度重疊的地方,譬如說"},{"start":6687.702,"end":6696.386,"text":"對於AI人力的培養：人事總處有講書發部也有對於提升智慧化的服務：人總這邊其實也有講說有相關的課程：書發部也說要做智慧化為民服務：經濟部也要做客服效率提升：也要提供數據分析最佳服務等等"},{"start":6710.694,"end":6728.092,"text":"對,那我還沒有看其他的這個業務單位的報告書我相信可能裡面的內容是大同小異的在這樣子高度重疊的情況之下我不知道就是政府部門就中央政府機關到底有沒有一個主責單位對於我們台灣未來的AI發展"},{"start":6731.816,"end":6742.363,"text":"不管是從提升人力的角度AI素養的角度發展相關的系統或是說要提供一些相關的服務有沒有一個組織機關目前組織機關是哪一個部會"},{"start":6746.501,"end":6759.947,"text":"這裡大概跟委員說明一下人事總處是負責公務人員AI的培訓所以我們從7月30號陸陸續續從部長次長還有機關三級機關首長那今天下午會針對12職等的司長處長來辦訓練再來我們會針對我們的訓練對象還有一個10座課程是針對科長是業務單位"},{"start":6776.274,"end":6797.296,"text":"蘇發布的重點在資訊單位一樣就是我們有分兩類型的我現在看到其他機關幾乎似乎也是follow行政院所核定的AI計畫裡面的一些東西在做但是我必須說就是裡面高度的重疊在本席看來其實各部會現在所做的事情"},{"start":6797.776,"end":6797.916,"text":"從7月到10月開始就陸陸續續舉辦"},{"start":6825.21,"end":6830.816,"text":"高階人才的AI共識營本席很好奇的是部會首長的AI共識營你們到底共識了些什麼?你們討論了一些什麼嗎?"},{"start":6834.963,"end":6856.129,"text":"主要的課程是在讓所有部會首長知道人工智慧在未來國家的發展競爭上面它的幫助是怎樣還有它會有哪些的基礎環境必須要建構事實上部會首長他知道以後會把這個訊息傳達給他所屬的大家一起動起來"},{"start":6856.994,"end":6864.6,"text":"了解,所以代表現在這些部會首長根本還沒有AI的素養沒有AI sense對不對都已經當了部會首長這都是陷在弦上我們其實都要做的然後如果說這方面大家對於這個議題的認知還不夠還要重新來學習我告訴你台灣的AI發展一定會遠遠的落後於其他的國家好接下來下一頁"},{"start":6880.211,"end":6903.06,"text":"那麼我要談的就是說是其實經濟部也在今年也發布了一份112年全國電力資源供需報告書裡面呢有講到就是未來我們AI的電力的需求1年會比112年成長8倍我想請問就經濟部經濟部今天經濟部次長次長有來是不是不好意思司長好那你"},{"start":6909.322,"end":6930.141,"text":"經濟部準備好了嗎?相關電力發展或書發部對這方面有沒有什麼看法?經濟部有臺電公司針對整個AI的發展有盤顧未來的電力需求那詳細的情況因為我不是臺電公司我是產業技術師所以這個詳細的數字我就沒辦法回答謝謝好本席告訴你肯定不夠而書發部呢?"},{"start":6930.922,"end":6948.184,"text":"跟委員報告就是說電力的需求當然如果分散式的把這些AI分散在各部會那這一個的確是會造成非常大的影響那這也是為什麼剛剛我報告數位政府是他有一支計畫是建立政府共購的AI機房"},{"start":6949.345,"end":6966.972,"text":"我想其實最重要的我們要發展AI基礎建設一定要完善而且電力很明顯就是不能缺嘛你沒有電的情況之下所有的系統這通訊系統是不能夠運作的所以我認為說與其我們講說發展AI其實不如說我們先把電力的這個環境先建置好這個才會更重要那接下來我想我就單獨請教這個人事長就好了"},{"start":6977.016,"end":6982.597,"text":"兩位可以先回座本席接下來要談的就是說我有看到人事總處在人事行政政策規劃執行發展的計畫裡面其實有談到未來還是會持續的做智慧創新人事服務計畫等等這些所謂的自通訊安全的計畫大概編了一億三千"},{"start":7001.821,"end":7003.362,"text":"本席發言委員"},{"start":7019.964,"end":7026.953,"text":"市求人、退休金試算、退休金年金改革等系統本席也肯定人事總處規劃資通訊系統"},{"start":7033.542,"end":7056.967,"text":"如果說從這個先談這個事求人的這個系統來講本席也這裡也做了一些統計我們從106年一直到113年看到這個事求人光是這個系統不斷的優化擴充本席不知道為什麼要每一年都要優化而且事實上累積起來的金額也相當的可觀"},{"start":7058.621,"end":7068.717,"text":"然後還有就是都是給同一家的業者那麼這個是一個問題那我們接下來再看第二個例子另外就是在考試分發"},{"start":7071.718,"end":7090.56,"text":"另外在考試分發的人事申報作業系統同樣的也是一樣都是透過優化擴充每年都是編很高的錢如果說我們講第一年是開發的話那第二年第三年之後理論上是維運可是為什麼每一年都是優化及擴充的系統還有下面"},{"start":7092.281,"end":7110.593,"text":"那麼在人事服務系統的部分也是一樣．靈群電腦長年都是拿這個人事總處的標案．而且都是用擴充．不是用優化擴充精進的專案．然後呢這個申請的金額也都非常高．這下一頁人力資源管理資訊系統．同樣的也是一樣的情況．這也是給靈群的．下一頁"},{"start":7120.632,"end":7124.394,"text":"退休撫恤系統支通電腦公司全頂退休撫恤試算系統優化系統"},{"start":7140.848,"end":7159.063,"text":"那開發也是跟人事服務網有關的這些系統好下一頁本期要講就是說是你們自己其實都有說有關於像資通訊的服務的軟體開發有一個經費的估算原則請問人事長你們過去有按照這個估算原則在做嗎"},{"start":7160.421,"end":7161.502,"text":"我跟委員報告因為人事總處現在維運的很多的系統是全國大家共用"},{"start":7180.735,"end":7207.887,"text":"那這一年期間我們最少會有4次的使用者的一個meeting他會每一個人在使用之後他會覺得他有些功能是不夠滿足他的他希望再增加那很多人的需求我們會透過那個整合一年4次然後會有一個審查會把大家認為OK這個功能可以更新更新了以後我們再去做update因為"},{"start":7208.907,"end":7215.83,"text":"剛才委員看到的這一些他會有兩個項目一個是Regular系統的維護費就是按照這個畫面所提的6到14%第二個是新的系統擴充因為使用之後我可能會增加新的功能謝謝人事長因為時間的關係我必須說我從剛剛的標案裡面我看不出來那個是有包含維護費"},{"start":7231.957,"end":7233.638,"text":"如果說是擴充 你們也要把每一年擴充什麼本身希望你們可以做一個詳細的報告我剛剛列舉的那幾個系統到底他們擴充了一些什麼 優化了什麼我已經問過我們的一些資訊界的專家學者大家都覺得說這不太"},{"start":7252.153,"end":7257.794,"text":"可能每一年都在擴充每一年都在優化你們不是一開始表演設計都應該要設計好了嗎怎麼可能每年都花那麼多錢下一頁然後接下來我要講的不管是在審計部還有我們立法院預算中心其實都有講這是有關於維護費的計費方式應該要依照這個相關的經費估算原則去做基本上要積極的檢討"},{"start":7278.079,"end":7300.735,"text":"那麼看起來我覺得人事總處基本上並沒有按照之前的估算原則去做那麼本席希望你們可以把這個相關的報告書然後提送一個月之內可以吧提送一份給我因為我覺得這很重要這個人民的錢要花在刀口上我們不能夠巧立名目用各式各樣不同的精進優化擴充專案然後編了一大堆錢我剛剛是沒有時間講這些廠商這高達都是"},{"start":7306.499,"end":7306.519,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7337.059,"end":7338.139,"text":"陳俊宇委員休息5分鐘"},{"start":7372.708,"end":7396.048,"text":"好,繼續我們邀請鐘嘉斌召委進行諮詢主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關總管官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生先有請我們書人事長、邱次長跟陳副主任委員那另外呢,待會會請內政部、農業部跟矯正署請準備"},{"start":7403.346,"end":7415.643,"text":"人事長好、次長好、副主委好我想今天我在談的就是政府導入AI效能跟資產要並重那機關應用就要全面啟動並且要列入管考來我先請教陳副主委這個我們"},{"start":7418.687,"end":7445.061,"text":"一般的流行用語啊在原子彈四爆爆炸啟用問世之後呢我們的1960年代就很多太空就是原子筆啦原子燙對不對那人類登陸月球之後呢什麼都是什麼太空啊太空啊80年代呢電腦問世之後呢什麼都電腦化電腦化現在呢就是資訊數位那現在呢2020啊通通都是人工智慧能不能很簡短的給人工智慧做個定義它有什麼特徵"},{"start":7446.482,"end":7465.997,"text":"大量的數據自動生成自動學習有什麼特徵?報告委員我們在訂定這個人工智慧基本法的時候有在這個應該是第2條有對人工智慧人工智慧跟數位化什麼區塊鏈啊資訊化啊網路化有什麼差別?"},{"start":7467.001,"end":7486.96,"text":"我們在人工智慧的定義上面是應該是說它是一個本身可以具備一個學習的自我學習運用大量資料庫能夠自動生成能夠回應使用者或環境的要求的一個應用的一個方式詳細的文字我可能要稍微看一下好謝謝請問兩位次長同意嗎人事長同意這樣的說明嗎"},{"start":7488.154,"end":7506.51,"text":"大概人工智慧他第一個要求可能要有很大量的一個資料第二個是演算法第三個就是算力那之前算力沒有那麼強人工智慧他發展的速度就比較慢最近這幾年算力提升了OK算力啦那次長你認為人事長跟副主委講的你都同意嗎"},{"start":7507.83,"end":7531.979,"text":"就是如果按照基本法第二條他就是他有感知那會產生output那為什麼那他最大的好處我們政府導入有什麼好處他可以加快一些過程但是這個感知跟產生output的過程必須被評測很好好謝謝副主委先請回來請教兩位次長跟我們人事長誰是政府導入AI的主責機關"},{"start":7534.09,"end":7553.351,"text":"我這邊列的阿我看一下你們人事處有提五次策略阿人事總處阿書發部也提個五也是一樣阿五個策略誰是主管機關誰是主責我跟那個召委報告大概有主要的三個stakeholder那人總是負責公務人員的人工智慧的那書發部呢"},{"start":7554.744,"end":7571.253,"text":"蘇發部是負責整個政府在應用人工智慧的政策的規劃跟推動那國科會的角色是在定義類似人工智慧基本法還有他會有很多的謝謝時間的關係 邱社長你同意剛剛人事長講的嗎"},{"start":7574.13,"end":7596.93,"text":"跟委員報告這個是一個非常複雜的問題有沒有簡單的回答我們沒有很多時間簡單的回答就是說因為因為當初在訂立人工智慧的時候所以你同意人事長所講的這個分工基本上是正確的OK好謝謝來我們看一下那人總跟速發部辦理AI課程的對象有何不同我跟委員報告一下是不是你們人總做的是業務人員那我們速發部找的是資訊人員"},{"start":7598.032,"end":7621.913,"text":"大概是中階的是屬於這樣啦中階我們是找業務直接業務來訓練你提供一些情境讓他去轉換成人工智慧的這一種模式那薛市長你同意嗎我們這邊包含三個部分第一個部分是種子人員種子人員當然是希望是科長以上推動AI的人員"},{"start":7622.614,"end":7644.313,"text":"那第二個是有AI的公路人員的AI通識課程這個是針對一般的公路人員好那現在我進入那目前你們AI課程辦理的進入如何簡單的講我們現在有已經完成看起來是有將近800人次800人次來那個人事長那你們呢你們辦了好像三個營隊了嘛"},{"start":7646.649,"end":7663.647,"text":"我們政府首長也辦了三級機關首長也辦了接下來連還要再辦今天下午是12職等12職等以上好聽起來不只是位階不同我請教一下未來人總跟書發部你們的AI課程是否允許各單位派同一組人參加這個我們事先有溝通過"},{"start":7664.668,"end":7666.649,"text":"政府導入AI如何防止資料被害?"},{"start":7688.797,"end":7688.857,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7705.518,"end":7722.14,"text":"那你認為人總這樣做那你們怎麼樣防止資料被害我們是在制度上就是規定你要進AI的東西資料要清過對就是這樣子不具機敏性的才可以上雲端因為他有時候會透過境外伺服器具機敏性的政府就要自建伺服器是不是這樣"},{"start":7723.733,"end":7747.067,"text":"這是一種方法政府的公文秘密目前有一個文書處理手冊請問人事長未來政府各機關以什麼機制標準作為機敏的資料分類有這樣一個標準出來了嗎人事長有沒有你們機敏資料分類不能上雲端的機敏資料怎麼分類有沒有分類辦法還是數位部"},{"start":7749.799,"end":7777.944,"text":"蘇衛部這邊是說就是說我要上雲端的資料要最小化是那要機敏分類嘛對不對機敏的不上嘛不只是機敏就是說就算是我了解但是機敏的不能讓他上去嘛好那你們怎麼確定他不是機敏來因為機敏的基本上不會電的各機關各機關去判斷具不具有機敏性來那個人事長這樣子齁我現在就是說因為你們有你們的model有你們的方法但是方法之後呢要有手段"},{"start":7778.82,"end":7792.979,"text":"你們要先要求各機關在你們的學習課程當中各機關要能辨識區別哪些機敏資料不能上雲端除了最小化之外要減少伺服器的負擔那另外為了防止資料被害要不要自建AI伺服器"},{"start":7794.718,"end":7795.379,"text":"知見伺服器可能不是一個最好的方法"},{"start":7812.313,"end":7836.686,"text":"那怎麼辦那所以基本上就算是上雲其實有一些軟體的手段可以完成這個治安的要求那這些報告你們打算怎麼做那我們會先做評測就是說你必須用評測的方法要不要預算執行這個當然需要預算執行所以你們要在預算上表達出來剛剛委員在關心預算你們都用優化啦擴充啦這些模糊的字眼我們希望未來兩個部會相關部會"},{"start":7838.072,"end":7861.32,"text":"在進行導入政府導入AI要防止被害要建立資料的精敏分類而且在相關的伺服器的使用上你們需要投入什麼預算來預防要說明清楚好不好可以往下所以你們承諾AI不會縮減元額人長是不是這樣子那你們要怎麼做你們要提供效能而不是縮減元額那各機關用了AI之後人不需減少但是效能怎麼提升你怎麼怎麼驗測事實上導入AI來請那個內政部農業部跟那個"},{"start":7867.844,"end":7868.424,"text":"保安委員我不想來我給你看一個"},{"start":7898.183,"end":7898.963,"text":"目前還沒有 人事長怎麼辦"},{"start":7928.629,"end":7929.11,"text":"內政部 移民署 你們管的嘛"},{"start":7941.001,"end":7959.958,"text":"好 我們現在只要有出國國人都知道 很多國家最早用的我去接觸的是新加坡幾乎它的出入境都用很多的一個ATM類似ATM那樣的機器在幫你服務現在我們的出境大廳大家也可以到 你在旅客在桃園機場要出境 要去簽印錢"},{"start":7961.559,"end":7978.369,"text":"機場的航空公司也用大量的這個機器我到日本去入境的時候也是用機器取代好 那目前你們的內政部的移民署的署長說我們移民署的第4代的E-GATE自動通關建置的成效未來能不能讓非本國籍的旅客出入使用自動通關 現在進入怎麼樣不知道對不對 人事長 怎麼辦你們高暢入營 但是各機關的配合速度跟不上怎麼辦 往下看"},{"start":7990.623,"end":8006.438,"text":"好 那個蕭政署 過去我在2022年 2020年4年前我曾經問過受刑人在監獄遭管理員凌虐致死 我要求蕭政署要杜絕監視器的死角周組長知道這個事情嗎?"},{"start":8006.438,"end":8009.601,"text":"知道那目前有說要求你們做智慧監獄 你們今天怎麼樣?"},{"start":8011.589,"end":8014.23,"text":"現在科技很進步"},{"start":8027.279,"end":8044.432,"text":"這是在2020年COVID-19前前我們發明那個叫電子圍籬另外我們發明到生理手環受刑人有的慢性病有的有性血管疾病他不見得都能夠及時的借護送醫如果這些高風險的受刑人有配上生理手環你們會及時監測到生理狀況不會延誤病情你同意嗎"},{"start":8045.211,"end":8060.101,"text":"我同意那如果說一些盲區除了用監視器事後來檢查之外如果有射電子圍籬只要一進入盲區就會出現警號避免受刑人被匣帶進去修理有沒有可以做這個方法可以好 人事長看到沒有人事長"},{"start":8061.804,"end":8084.289,"text":"聽到沒有 矯正組都說可以 那他做了沒進度如何你看人事長 你們開共識營高建是必要的到目前三級機關說的事情 你們開過了你還是不知道他們的進度往下看來 我再請 那個次長跟那個次長請回齁次長請回好 我們來看看登山吶"},{"start":8085.694,"end":8095.764,"text":"防止射屏來請問這也是內政部的還有林保署來農業部你們知不知道目前的科技我們會去統計陸山的山友的人數農業部知道嗎不知道對不對我都知道因為我們經常民意代表負責去受理"},{"start":8105.41,"end":8115.687,"text":"目前我們的配置大概在登山的路徑上會受感測器不管是山羌通過還是黑熊通過還是人類通過他會有技術的但是山友通常繞過"},{"start":8117.267,"end":8143.168,"text":"所以我要問一下現在我們看到一個新聞向陽山發生一個失蹤16年的山友目前我們很常看到的路跑路跑你要參加路跑花200塊押金把那個晶片在你腳上你就可以計時這是一個RFID的無線射頻被動元件那麼這個元件很適合我們在山區裡面佈建可以知道山友如果進入了他有這個晶片我們會知道他在什麼時間什麼地點通過哪個檢測點"},{"start":8145.47,"end":8166.333,"text":"未來發生事故可以縮小我們的搜尋範圍 農業部同意嗎知道 知道嗎 內政部因為你們管警政署也管陸山登進 內政部同意嗎同意 同意好 所以人事長 我也聽你提過用5G的無人機結合AI辨識來強化三難的搜救 你認為有沒有在進行了"},{"start":8168.97,"end":8184.484,"text":"我感覺應該還沒有啦感覺還沒有來 速發步報就要請你們上來你們的速產署說啊5G無人機結合AI辨識強化三端救援你們有沒有要推動這樣的一個應用項目有這個計畫有這個計畫什麼時候要讓我們看到成果"},{"start":8185.344,"end":8209.805,"text":"我記得這個計劃應該是現在開始進行那應該明年會有一些出...明年會有初步成果,好那麼所以AI導入山域救援呢它可以用這種方式用RFID同時呢AI會配合它的氣候預測跟山域的環境讓我們的受救人員不要冒自己的生命危險直升機不用老是去鋪空吊掛那麼派遣人員的地面人員也不用找不到花很多力氣去搜尋失蹤的人員是不是這樣子"},{"start":8210.606,"end":8237.868,"text":"好 那人事長最後總結啦第一 人事總處跟塑化部要召開不同領域的AI課程各單位應對應相關的課程內容 派業務人員參與兩位是不是都同意 承諾好 那另外我請嚴毅將各項數據導入AI提升前項的四位應用內容的速度效益安全性可行報告一個月提出後面的農業部 內政部是不是都可以承諾人事長要不要列入管考"},{"start":8241.322,"end":8268.105,"text":"我比較不方便去管考這一個部分那你們不管考那誰來要求他們做應用端應用端大概蘇哈布蘇哈布有你們來管考嗎應該不是警政署也不是你管考移民署也不是你管考矯正署也不是你管考我們的那個那個林保署也不是你管考那請問我們講的這些應用有說要做那誰來知道他做了沒有"},{"start":8270.834,"end":8271.574,"text":"接下來有請吳委員施堯"},{"start":8298.951,"end":8308.819,"text":"謝謝主席：有請人事長：速發部的薛次長：還有國客會陳副主委好 請蘇人事長 薛次長 還有陳副主委"},{"start":8312.157,"end":8314.98,"text":"NO ONE IS OUTSIDER"},{"start":8334.191,"end":8340.644,"text":"沒有人是局外人各個部會都有承擔責任不管是培育或是參與"},{"start":8344.232,"end":8365.053,"text":"那AI列入我們五大信賴產業當中跟AI相關的就是我們的國家雄心壯志是打造台灣為全球AI影響力中心推動目標裡頭呢當然希望有產值但是在人才的部分"},{"start":8365.774,"end":8390.004,"text":"全國公司協力4年內培育20萬名AI數位人才然後提升數位經濟產業導入AI的應用普及率是50%對於製造業來導入AI的普及率要到3成今天的主題是我們公務部門其實也是順著剛剛我們趙薇所問的"},{"start":8392.725,"end":8408.155,"text":"到底這麼多部會是國家隊每一個部會的你的職長都跟AI的應用相關到底誰管好我現在問這個問題啦我們對於數位經濟導入要4年5成對於製造業導入AI技術要4年3成那我問這個問題我們的公務體系導入AI的應用4年內的目標是多少"},{"start":8422.965,"end":8423.466,"text":"這就是一個Key Point"},{"start":8446.164,"end":8461.181,"text":"國家隊大家都有責任在自己的專善執掌裡頭想方設法去應用但是我們對於民間的產業有清楚的戰略目標對於公務體系我覺得不能夠"},{"start":8462.522,"end":8487.336,"text":"這樣子毫無清晰的目標值這個問題好好帶回去這就是我們要面對的問題在公務體系今天人事長處理的是公務體系的培訓嘛來下一頁總統說了我們AI時代來臨希望我們公務體系每一位首長每一位公務同仁都要有相關的AI知能"},{"start":8488.82,"end":8517.183,"text":"但是今天的主題我看到的如果是以因為法制委員會監督的是人事長我們可能會把他放在公務人力的人才培育但是我要說我們不只是培育公務體系的同仁有AI的知能更重要的是在國家的AI政策跟相關的應用上其實是各部會是參與的角色包括我對人事長你的期待"},{"start":8517.643,"end":8540.869,"text":"我們不是只辦訓練營讓大家知道AI是什麼剛剛鍾釗緯講得非常好啊對於山南的協助對於矯正署法制委員會我們的法務部AI的應用何其之廣啊所以不是只有末端的人才培訓來告訴大家現在技術有哪些大家要懂重點是公務體系的應用"},{"start":8543.272,"end":8561.811,"text":"這個是前後非常重要的一個思維的翻轉我在這裏一定要提出來這個Big Data新時代資訊就是新的石油因為我過去在教育文化委員會我長期跟國科會來做這方面的討論"},{"start":8563.846,"end":8589.06,"text":"所以在CHAP GPT引爆了AI的這個資訊資料庫的浪潮之後我過去質詢了國科會那時候的吳政中他是主委也兼政委所以提出了要在2024年是今年的預算已經在執行有40億國家投入AI的發展這是今年度的預算但是呢我們還是落後了"},{"start":8593.442,"end":8596.245,"text":"所以要打造一個資料庫我今天就就這個資料庫來就教於三位"},{"start":8615.695,"end":8632.271,"text":"這個TED我們要推動可信任生成式的AI發展就在中研院去年發生了台灣的資訊資料庫不夠以至於我們中研院的研究員去引用了"},{"start":8633.311,"end":8659.253,"text":"中國建制的資料庫鬧出了笑話大家記得這件事所以在這個事件之後國科會速發部跟中研院就投入了3億要進行臺版的CHAP GPT也就是臺灣自治大型語言模型目前這個進度應當是進行來是要陳副主委回答還是要我們學次長"},{"start":8660.559,"end":8683.347,"text":"報告委員這應該是目前是國科會負責的那目前呢建制我們要創造台灣的資料數據建構台灣繁中系統的語言資料庫掌握data就是掌握了石油目前建制如何報告委員目前我們應該已經release了應該在今年的4月份有release一個版本出來"},{"start":8686.328,"end":8713.437,"text":"我看您今天沒有辦法回答細節你可以提供相關資料給本席我要提這個是我們的預算當初要建這個台版的CHAP GDP是3億左右的預算那我剛剛講的即便3億之外要40億投入國家隊的AI發展我們還是落後先進國家非常多沒有預算就沒有辦法做事啦下一頁"},{"start":8714.73,"end":8727.097,"text":"我掌握到的國科會針對這個TED資料庫的新年度就是明年2025年的國家預算至少是1.37億這是新增預算新增計畫如果總預算繼續被擋下去的話這一個臺灣的繁中語言資料庫的建制就成了受災戶我們就沒有辦法打我們的"},{"start":8741.825,"end":8770.423,"text":"這個AI跟世界各國一起比拼的這個資訊大戰你們有去跟在野黨委員爭取預算說明預算了嗎?這裡面有國客會預算大概1.37億速發部應該也有吧?速發部的預算是那個評測中心的預算一年8千億一年8千億所以總預算八檔就不一定八檔嘛我們今天在這裡爭取我們AI向前大步走預算沒過怎麼推啊?"},{"start":8771.323,"end":8791.333,"text":"我相信很多在野黨的委員也會在這裡要求你們我們要做多好做多多做多快預算沒過怎麼做呢我用的還只是這個TED資料庫繁中語言資料庫台版CHAP GDP的一個案例而已下一頁那另外就是"},{"start":8795.31,"end":8816.21,"text":"是為了AI基本法嗎?你們現在公告完成了10月底要送行政院其實面對資安面對假訊息面對侵權行為的頻傳台灣能不能夠快速的來去制定出台灣的AI基本法我去年在教育文化委員會我是質疑的"},{"start":8817.881,"end":8837.846,"text":"在世界各國還沒有他也許是指引歐美國家還沒有完成立法的台灣有信心做得到做得好嗎你們現在完成公告了收集社會的意見如何跟你們原始的法案的草擬的想像是如何來副主委"},{"start":8839.067,"end":8858.34,"text":"報告委員我們已經完成了公告那其實也收集了蠻多的建議的那我們也在這個收集完之後有納入方向跟原本的設定方向跟原本設定大同小異我們還是會這個鼓勵創新跟兼顧人權這兩個方向會同時"},{"start":8858.72,"end":8877.638,"text":"我沒有反對制定但是我是以國際經驗國外的AI每年投入這麼多預算的先進大國他們還是用指引的方式台灣能夠這麼快速的用一個立法的方式嗎我今天在這裡我還是質疑不需要為快而快"},{"start":8878.703,"end":8899.234,"text":"我們要做就要做對方向繼續對話好AI基本法涉及7大基本原則4大推動重點都是跨部會的所以我們成立了行政院數位法制協調專案會議下一頁人事長我們人事總處是outside"},{"start":8900.543,"end":8900.563,"text":"這樣感覺對嗎?"},{"start":8925.486,"end":8940.595,"text":"這就回到我剛說的你只是負責培訓喔而不是參與喔你只是培育而不是參與喔我是假如他們有邀請我我一定去參加你覺得你需不需要在裡面我是樂於積極參與對國家發展有幫助的我認為AI新時代公務體系的"},{"start":8949.5,"end":8978.302,"text":"了解AI的知能進一步的能夠更去應用它我們人事總處應當是insider否則你會留於後端一個知識性傳授的角色而已下一頁你看看這是我們開過三次會的會議結錄都提到各機關的座談會工作坊論壇去培育公務人員的AI知能"},{"start":8979.662,"end":8987.473,"text":"我認為這個你們在場三位來這個國科會跟速發部應該速發部這個應當把人事總處納進去吧這麼簡單的問題因為這個是"},{"start":8999.346,"end":9024.856,"text":"人事長公他願意勇於認識嗎 對不對一起參與嘛 我不說你主導嘛 你要加入嘛那個幕僚應該是國發會啦那請今天與會的國發會的代表把這個訊息帶回去好嗎下一頁因為我們現在都是做培訓課程 我說他是很末端的 人事長下一頁"},{"start":9027.796,"end":9052.439,"text":"就以國科會定定的使用生成式AI的指引．裡頭每一項從國安資安人權隱私倫理保密各自保護著作權．完全都跟公務體系的user使用端有關．所以我們人事總處當然要盡可能多參與．而不是只顧政策訂出來我來培育就好下一頁"},{"start":9053.564,"end":9078.354,"text":"好 說到你自己的這個提供我時間到了AI基礎的訓練課程120小時不管是高考或普考在整個 對不起所有公務體系的120小時的訓練裡頭AI甚至是資安不是只有AI都只有加起來都各只有8小時比例只有6.66這個部分就是我們培訓端就完全是人事總處"},{"start":9079.904,"end":9107.954,"text":"這個人事長您的我各位這是保訓會的我們在跟保訓會溝通這不是AI課程喔這是資安plus裡面一小部分的AI如果我剛剛說的培訓你只做培訓不做前端政策應用的參與的話那培訓也要做得充足目前高考跟普考要新進公務體系的人員他的這方面的課程是非常的少的也沒搞啦"},{"start":9108.693,"end":9131.312,"text":"我來蔡主委拜託所以我覺得我們今天拋出來的議題從嘉賓召委到思瑤我們連成一氣的觀點就是公務體系對於AI相關的發展他是要多參與而不是只有培育而參與的部分no one is outsider我認為人事長人才是重中之重"},{"start":9132.313,"end":9153.959,"text":"我也很期待對於立法院也能夠有相關的課程包括立委或是立委的助理幕僚們我們都要共同來理解AI的新時代好嗎?今天的問題很高興教委說未來還會有專案報告對於我們的幾個核心問題我們的AI運用在公務體系有沒有什麼樣的目標誰來觀考?好好思考這個問題"},{"start":9158.34,"end":9162.741,"text":"好嗎?好,一起加油,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝委員。謝謝吳委員,謝謝人事長、各位長官。那在陳俊宇委員質詢完畢後,我們休息5分鐘,現在請陳委員進行質詢。好,謝謝昭偉,我們有請蘇人事長。好,請人事長。"},{"start":9190.962,"end":9212.776,"text":"今天我們對於如何將AI導入政府機關提升效能來進行相關的這個探討尤其在我們AI近幾年是全世界各領域都是最熱門的一個關鍵字的搜尋那我們也看到賴總統和內閣團隊都展現決心要打造台灣成為智慧國家"},{"start":9213.646,"end":9226.062,"text":"但是科技的發展日新月異在人才法規乃至於在整體發展環境上政府都有責任走在最前面帶領各行各業來發展人工智慧的應用"},{"start":9227.284,"end":9254.936,"text":"我也了解到我們這個各部會其實都有對於引用AI的這個部分提出相應的規劃和措施也如同人事長先前所說的公部門發展AI最所要的就是在人才培育所以我想就目前人總對於推動公務員的這個人力培訓的規劃來救教我們人事長如果政府要普及AI的應用"},{"start":9255.397,"end":9261.575,"text":"可能普及到公務體系當中的每一個同仁我看到不管是人種或是速發部"},{"start":9263.004,"end":9287.671,"text":"對於這個AI人才培訓都有做出分級的規劃那我想瞭解的是在政府現行的規劃下我們對於基層的公務人員具體上所希望擁有的這個基礎資能為何那預計要多久時間來進行培訓在習得這個基礎能力之後目前主要如何運用在我們"},{"start":9288.951,"end":9312.904,"text":"這個辦公的場域當中我們想請教我們人事長謝謝委員這個問題我想大家委員也知道全國大概21萬的公務人員如果全部的課程要用實體課程來執行上會有其困難的地方所以我們現在從9月1號開始我們已經在數位學習的平台放了五門"},{"start":9313.664,"end":9314.645,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9342.243,"end":9369.245,"text":"右映大概我們目前也在檢討假如你有上過人工智慧起的一些證照對未來的升遷會有一些幫助因為用相關的配套去拉動它可能速度會比較快一點我們那個滾動檢討啦另外第二個就是這個是數位學習的構面第二個我們跟數化部事實上也有在合作"},{"start":9370.006,"end":9385.106,"text":"辦一些科長級以上的總職人員訓練因為這個總職人員訓練完以後他會回去擴散在每一個部會甚至地方政府的部份大家一起進來這樣整個國家在推動人工智慧這速度會比較快"},{"start":9385.546,"end":9414.548,"text":"所以我們也有辦那個實務的課程這個大概3天的program那而且也要經過考試考試及格才會取得一個認證我想這樣有一點壓力他們學習的效果應該會比較好一點好那對於這個基層人員他的培訓是為了能夠使用這個AI和AI一起工作對於這個高階人才的培訓那剛剛那個人事長您也說了我們會"},{"start":9415.208,"end":9431.04,"text":"另外再開闢一個課程那從現行的這個規劃來看可能還是希望能夠他們能夠自主的這個學習我們這個人事總署這邊所安排的課程他們來配合來配合學習"},{"start":9432.762,"end":9447.828,"text":"那政府在培養AI人才的這個資源上是否應擴大運用公司部門共同協力而且在法規面尚未完備的情況下我們要先對於現有的這個平台來深化AI的使用"},{"start":9449.094,"end":9472.686,"text":"我跟委員報告一下事實上人事總處來講我們的專長大概就是人事行政的那這些人工智慧的這些專門的領域事實上過去這幾年也謝謝人工智慧學校跟工研院那裡有團隊來協助我們去做這樣的事情所以我們現在很多課程的規劃跟執行事實上是跟民間來搭配"},{"start":9473.146,"end":9491.834,"text":"然後今年跟明年我們也安排一些已經導入人工智慧的我帶我們的公務同仁去現場見習這樣看人家怎麼做這個印象會比較深刻所以我們才複合式的方式在推動這也是接下來我要問的"},{"start":9493.895,"end":9521.756,"text":"這些高階的人才在經過完整的這個規劃培訓之後都是公部門非常寶貴的人力那在業界同樣都是求財若渴那會不會有大量的我們高階人才因為在這個過程裡面被挖角的可能那我們人種在策略上應該如何來避免未來會產生這樣的情形反過來有沒有在擬定從業界招募這個AI即戰力的這個規劃"},{"start":9523.584,"end":9537.963,"text":"我覺得我目前整個策略上就是普遜所有的公務同仁就是把人工智慧變成他必要的一個核心能力就是一個DNA的概念"},{"start":9538.524,"end":9554.513,"text":"那要從業界挖人進來主要就是請他們來擔任業師的角色來教導然後直接就引進來因為公務機關本身我們有公務人員服務法的一些限制所以要挖過來"},{"start":9555.774,"end":9557.154,"text":"有些公務同仁我們在應用的那種情境跟民間的可能會有落差"},{"start":9572.099,"end":9572.94,"text":"希望守住我們的好人才"},{"start":9601.641,"end":9626.918,"text":"當然當然那另外因為這個AI應用對於軟體和硬體的這個要求都會比過去來的這個高許多那各部門在採購軟硬體設備時有自己的這個考量規格不見得是最高階的而在軟體上就連公文系統各部門使用的也不見得是來自同一家廠商我想請教我們的市長是不是有需要對於我們公部門軟硬體設備的這個"},{"start":9629.059,"end":9629.94,"text":"人工智慧的運算的算力需求"},{"start":9648.2,"end":9648.34,"text":"好﹗好"},{"start":9672.23,"end":9690.462,"text":"好 那這部分還是請我們人事總處這邊就是盡量去做整合啦好 人事長您先請 我想請那個經濟部跟農業部的代表好 我們"},{"start":9691.28,"end":9708.45,"text":"目前政府在使用AI提升公務效能之餘也應該有貼近民眾的這個相關日常生活我想就遭逢這個我們天災情況的時候也就是這個防災應用的部分來和我們經濟部來做討論"},{"start":9710.211,"end":9734.745,"text":"今年我們臺灣接連受到這個凱米颱風還有山陀颱風的這個侵襲在各地造成不少的災情尤其我們也看到許多的這個地區因為強降雨或是豪大雨而導致積水淹水的狀況那行政院也在109年曾經合併這個水災智慧的防災計畫至今也已經辦了快5年而這今年也合併了第二期的計畫在未來5年要投入超過"},{"start":9735.405,"end":9739.047,"text":"在第一期的計畫中AI應用於防汛工作上有哪些具體的成果以及在第二期5年的30.9億當中我們要如何來擴大使用AI的防災"},{"start":9761.294,"end":9780.601,"text":"跟委員報告因為經濟部整個部長現在對AI的發展很重視所以他要求各部會各局處都要嚴厲的遵守那至於你提到水利署的計畫我想因為我是紀錄師的代表我回去轉告水利署一一提書面報告給委員那會後這個部分再給我書面的資料"},{"start":9781.201,"end":9801.314,"text":"那我們也看到這個智慧防災計畫當中有使用這個AI輔助監控並辨識淹水的狀況能夠隨時掌握到各地這個積水或淹水的情況也能夠提前預警達到減災的效果像是這一次這個山頭的颱風來襲我跟這個農業部長陳部長視察防災的相關情形的時候當時這個"},{"start":9808.649,"end":9828.981,"text":"也有提到我們農業要導入AI來建置智慧防災系統應用於農田水利設施的管理包括監控排水系統和遠端操作水閘門的開啟還有關閉等等我想請教我們農業部在AI建置智慧防災系統上目前辦理的情況如何"},{"start":9829.728,"end":9850.577,"text":"跟委員報告其實那一天就是部長和委員到宜蘭去看那個農田放災的相關農田水利署的計畫那我回去我會跟農田水利署來向委員提出書面的報告好那這個部分還是會後給我一份完整的資料那以上就大概就對經濟部跟這個農業部相關的這個質詢就會後提供這個完整針對剛剛的這個問題的這個需求的這些答詢好 謝謝"},{"start":9860.097,"end":9865.804,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝兩位首長那我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":10193.878,"end":10195.925,"text":"繼續開會,現在有請奈委員事保諮詢時間5分鐘"},{"start":10201.631,"end":10230.134,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝副總召那麼各位先進大家早安大家好有請人事長以及書發部的薛次長以及國科會的陳副主委有請人事長薛次長還有陳副主委各位長官因為我時間很短我就問幾個簡單的問題請問你們知不知道或者就請問幾位長官包括各單位的"},{"start":10231.667,"end":10255.726,"text":"有跟CHAT GPT付錢去用CHAT GPT問他事情的舉手好不好有沒有都有嗎 後面都有嗎請問你們付幾塊錢的付幾塊錢的啊這裡有行情20塊美金以下的舉手免費的"},{"start":10261.017,"end":10262.277,"text":"我自己沒有使用"},{"start":10288.647,"end":10315.863,"text":"我們是用來做學術研究用途我現在是個人在用各位長官知道嗎當你來我請你看第一張我查了一下從8月22號到26號政府機關5天連線簽了GPD總共29萬餘次我要講什麼東西他講得非常清楚他就說如果你是20塊美金以下的"},{"start":10317.844,"end":10336.214,"text":"你要把資料給他他要用你的資料就是我們不斷地用CHAT GPT就不斷地有政府的資料留在他手上他就會訓練在使用簡單來講就是政府相關的資料因為你們的使用CHAT GPT特別人事總署這裡還說整個是買團體的哇 這樣整個都棄了"},{"start":10339.056,"end":10364.839,"text":"我們國家的資料國家的安全的問題資安的問題就呈現了我們國家的政府的機關的資料呼就送過去了然後他就訓練就用我們台灣政府的相關的單位的資料在裡面供他訓練所以這裡面就是無意當中我們因為你們的使用CHAT的GPT"},{"start":10366.28,"end":10384.343,"text":"已經把我們已經有一個食安洩漏的問題出來了我們現在放在銀端的都是公開資料啦open data本來就是政府資訊公開來符合的資料本來就要放在上面所以跟那個我們比較confidential的這個部分就沒有關"},{"start":10385.029,"end":10385.249,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10401.126,"end":10428.112,"text":"他上面的是屬於公開資料,另外我們有用地端的,有些資料是不能對外公開的,我們就放在地端,沒有放在雲端,我們有做這樣的差別嗎?吉同家講,我現在是講說,你自己可以這樣子做,可是你底下的人,他不知道啊!你底下人怎麼用你知道嗎?他應該問一下,啊我現在這個放假的問題你給我回答一下,他就跟你回答,你們資料就出去了,怎麼沒有呢?對不對?"},{"start":10432.091,"end":10435.255,"text":"有幾百個人在使用這東西你怎麼保證呢你沒辦法保證啊你沒辦法保證啊"},{"start":10452.191,"end":10476.433,"text":"這張喔 或是我剛才說的兩項啦 一個雲端的就是開放資料 阿如果在地端就是不能我出去網購的來 你還是沒有回答問題的齁 時間快到了所以我不再問你了來 我們蘇花部的齁 AI資料的進出可以不可以管制 當我們政府機關去跟AI 比如說CHAT的GPT 裡面有互動的時候 我們有沒有辦法管制我們的指涵 有沒有辦法"},{"start":10476.613,"end":10479.575,"text":"你沒有那麼評估了哪些AI可用哪些AI不能用"},{"start":10507.435,"end":10508.997,"text":"目前這個評測中心已經評測了幾個幾個不可以有人跟我們講"},{"start":10515.856,"end":10539.953,"text":"我看到資安比較好的應該是那個拉瑪拉瑪3.0的資安非常好那其他很多都沒有到達滿分因為他剛剛就是委員講的他免費的版本他會收你的資料所以如果你用付費的版本像剛剛人事總處他用付費的版本他是不能收你的資料的"},{"start":10540.305,"end":10548.597,"text":"沒有沒有我再強調一個20塊錢美金20塊錢以下的資安都很可能漏出去了20塊錢以上的相對好一點"},{"start":10549.622,"end":10574.264,"text":"我要強調這一點那我希望你這個書發部這裡確實做好這個治安的管控因為我們國家的各單位有太多的一個confidential的東西不應該因為跟GPT你剛剛提到了他相對的保密層級沒那麼高這樣容易流出去這其實是一個治安的一大的一個破口好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":10580.711,"end":10600.615,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員 那麼接下來有請副委副總召昆齊諮詢主席阿琴委員市長有請蘇貞市長還有我們速發部速發部缺次長"},{"start":10607.742,"end":10635.425,"text":"總統早早 人事長早蘇巴布斯次長現在人工智慧已經是所有全世界各國都在強力的發展尤其台灣我們在晉元代工其他很多的IT產業台灣在世界都是站在一個非常領先的一個國家的地位"},{"start":10636.465,"end":10659.255,"text":"接下來AI未來也會在臺灣成為一個非常重要的發展項目甚至可是一個非常重要的發展基地我們政府也更應該要同步來跟上這樣的一個腳步所以如何提升公務員的效率已經是普遍人民的期待"},{"start":10663.004,"end":10686.437,"text":"簡單淺淺的回答一下本期問題要怎麼樣把AI帶進我們所有的行政體系?請人事長我們現在推動的就是普遜的是透過數位學習讓全國21萬的公務人員可以到網站上寫數位學習不管你在花蓮台東任何地方都可以"},{"start":10687.157,"end":10699.132,"text":"第2個我們有辦那個實體班就針對科長以上的總職人員我們今年辦了一班然後明年五班然後甚至數學部他們也有辦我們是針對業務單位的人員訓練他們是針對資訊這樣可以快速擴散"},{"start":10705.56,"end":10731.078,"text":"那要怎麼樣提升提升整體的這樣的所有的公務人員整體這個數值對AI的認識瞭解數值的提升是不是未來也可能也辦一些相關的這樣的一個晉級的考試成為未來可能比較重要這關等升任一個非常重要的指標有沒有可能這要跟上世界的腳步"},{"start":10732.708,"end":10757.781,"text":"大概我們目前在規劃就是明年可能我再升遷你有拿到人工智慧相關的證照會有加分你可以升遷速度會比較快有一個誘因這個部分我們目前正在規劃當中你是不是建議一下不要老是靠光靠一些年資的堆積作為主要的參考的依據這個加分的幅度是不是可以把它適度的放寬"},{"start":10759.582,"end":10786.352,"text":"讓願意跟上世界腳步的這些我們的公職人員能夠更快的提升他的格局這樣子大家才會帶動整體學籍的氛圍本期在這裡跟你分享如果我們的公職人員如果能夠善用AI的話善用AI的話不只可以提升效率我們現在一直在講"},{"start":10787.679,"end":10812.446,"text":"在公務機關 人民依法提出相關的申請案到了政府機關以後 如果以退件或是要求補件往往是補了又補 退了又退 退了又補 補了又退如果我們導入完整的一個人工智慧 就告訴他 你退件的話只能退一次"},{"start":10813.581,"end":10829.232,"text":"我現在推薦給你你現在缺什麼資料缺什麼資料要一次補足甚至啊根本不用送到政府來在家裡上網就可以證券齊備了內容完整了我就給你可以嗎我覺得這個就是過去我在行政院有找惠夫的時候我們一起做這樣的提問而且這裡我也跟總編導報告講"},{"start":10840.748,"end":10852.631,"text":"另外還有一個問題就是說當政府本身就要給民眾的這一些權益保障還有福利的話不用等民眾再申請政府本身就提供不過他的前提就是"},{"start":10856.207,"end":10883.757,"text":"因為要政府核准的相關的申請案是非常的繁瑣非常複雜也非常項目眾多還是有很多必須要政府來核准的不是光給還是要經過相關的申請所以這個部分要拜託這個人事長過去你就投入了在這個領域但是現在還看不出有什麼明顯的績效往往在"},{"start":10884.81,"end":10913.303,"text":"各級政府裡面這個案子啊這個送了又審完又要補補完又退這個會讓人家有遐想這個到底是不是要送其他的東西才能夠加快速度如果我們用標準的格式人工智慧在家裡就可以把所有東西都齊備不需要再經過刻意的人為判斷我想這個標準是大家都可以接受的可以嗎"},{"start":10914.956,"end":10937.809,"text":"這個部分我再跟樹化部來談因為樹化部底下有一個所有公共旅遊部啦我就請他站在那裡就好了沒關係來繼續我覺得這件事很有意義的啦我們再拜託樹化部我們加速來推動很重要的就是人事長我要特別拜託你再跟所有的這相關的部會還有各級政府千萬記得"},{"start":10939.21,"end":10963.061,"text":"人工智能就你未給他什麼資料他就吃了什麼資料他完全是根據這些資料去做運算去做蒐集然後整合最後給答案所以AI他的長處是什麼他可以最短的時間給你答案而且他不會怠惰不會罷工不會朝九晚五最重要他不會有情緒"},{"start":10965.355,"end":10988.846,"text":"最短的時間之類能夠給你很重要的AI他不會說謊所以呢會說謊的是人不是AI所以你給他不正確的資料他就有不正確的答案所以未來在未資料的部分要千千萬萬注意未資料是最重要的事情你給他不正確的資料"},{"start":10990.094,"end":10990.374,"text":"針對現在我們在審總預算這個啊"},{"start":11007.551,"end":11031.571,"text":"一堆的網軍謠言綠媒就在講說這個國民黨民眾黨已經全數通過退回2024年的所謂這個老人津貼跟育兒津貼結果台灣事實查核中心再一次打臉完全沒有這樣的事情完全沒有這樣的事情事實不符"},{"start":11033.8,"end":11055.498,"text":"所以錯誤的假訊息網軍綠媒不但帶著這個風向會造成連AI都會判斷錯誤所以還要經過人偽的來摔錢人事長了解了嗎?再過來還有另外一個案子更可笑來我們再看另外一個所謂花東三法叫兩兆錢坑"},{"start":11056.946,"end":11083.609,"text":"事實查核中心就很清楚講這完全胡說八道而且他寫得很清楚這個是執政黨自己講民進黨講的這都不是事實各種網路國會發言不斷的造假造假造假因為已經習慣了說謊說久了就變成真的所以未來在整個未資料的時候真真假假假假真真萬一都丟了一些假訊息出去"},{"start":11085.436,"end":11111.381,"text":"給AI的data裡面都是假的他就很難做出真的事情所以這個部分希望希望這個人事長在跟各部會各級機關要特別做這方面的這個宣導好不好還有一個事情很重要人事長本席知道啊您的生活非常的健康常常會這個因為畢竟臺灣就這麼美寶島世中環海"},{"start":11115.366,"end":11127.534,"text":"有很大的海洋資源7-11是高山所以這位人事長常常會去踏青上山下海那是對的你為所有全國的公務員"},{"start":11129.844,"end":11130.165,"text":"提供更多的資訊"},{"start":11159.685,"end":11171.3,"text":"現在本席也在這裡特別提到臺灣有三分之二的山地高山有這麼多的區域裡面但我們的內政部我可以看一下"},{"start":11174.717,"end":11200.176,"text":"這個消防署啊有特種特收隊特種特收隊這個需要緊急救難的時候這個特收隊會出動然後呢對於我們消防署啊消防署這個在各港齁在各港基隆港台中港高雄港花蓮港也都有這些消防大隊做緊急救難使用但是請問一下人事長"},{"start":11201.526,"end":11223.145,"text":"現在對於國家公園人事長國家公園是內政部管的對不對為什麼在國家公園裡面發生任何事情卻管轄權在中央但是救人的時候要地方政府去救為什麼沒有為什麼沒有為什麼沒有"},{"start":11224.195,"end":11252.127,"text":"一個國家公園的特首隊由內政部統一施權本來就是內政部消防署也在內政部為什麼不由內政部來做對不對我本席給你舉個例子這樣子發生一個事情在國家公園雖然雖然那個轄區是在花蓮縣但是在國家公園屬於內政部管的那結果要救人救人是不是如救火 對不對"},{"start":11253.695,"end":11268.318,"text":"分秒都很重要結果呢花蓮這裡上不去花蓮特首都要繞到南投繞到嘉義才能上去去那裡七八個小時還要在宮頂還要再上山"},{"start":11269.84,"end":11292.851,"text":"這個合乎經濟效益嗎這合乎對這些苦救難的需要幫助的人是不是有事實的效應但是現在聽到消防署內政部不斷表達說人事總處這裡不給援俄這個是救命的援俄這是救命的事情救命的事情救人是不是如救火是不是"},{"start":11296.952,"end":11325.779,"text":"我們之前有找國家公園還有臨保署還有消防署一起去討論過這個問題應該會有一些解決的一個比較好的一個方向好 那個人事長既然是國家公園是內政部管轄怎麼會叫地方政府繞半個台灣去救援呢這個計不可乎現在21世紀救人一命啊 甚至到七級糊塗啊"},{"start":11326.904,"end":11328.905,"text":"謝謝副總召 謝謝人事長跟次長接下來有請吳委員春晨質詢時間5分鐘"},{"start":11356.564,"end":11374.951,"text":"好 有請我們人事長請蘇人事長我也很早你大概是我看過我們中央這個各部 部位當中最有笑容的人現在都戰鬥內閣所以看到你很開心那個 這個現在"},{"start":11380.031,"end":11403.687,"text":"我今天提的題目就是應該要全面性的提升智慧型的公務大軍36萬的大軍人事長這個職務人事長這個職務何等的重要因為我來自企業界企業界當中都有CEOCEO如果想要做這個整個企業的變革"},{"start":11406.033,"end":11416.868,"text":"因應所有的事情最重要身邊的那一個人就叫什麼人事長人事長對不對所以整個的政府我們現在的"},{"start":11418.26,"end":11446.926,"text":"全球這個面臨的數位化高聯化全球化現在可以講說21世紀已經進入了一個全面性改變的一個時代全面性的政治經濟產業的競爭所有都不一樣但是我們的政府是20世紀的機器應該吧法規編制制度都來自於那裡所以如果以一個企業"},{"start":11448.126,"end":11448.186,"text":"請問任市長"},{"start":11469.794,"end":11489.005,"text":"我們當然扮演一個非常重要就是引領公務人員創新變革的一個非常重要的機構所以人事長我當然相信因為你的資歷非常的完整從105年擔任副任市長所以業務你非常的熟悉"},{"start":11489.585,"end":11517.231,"text":"而且你本身是理工的底子練統計了然後練電腦練數位所以這方面數據我們來看這個剛才講的數位化高聯化我不曉得這個這麼大的以你這個現在一直我在提的壯世代我在談這個但是我發現我們的政府是沒有這個觀念的1970年的人口圖一個金字塔當時人口的中位數19歲"},{"start":11518.931,"end":11546.984,"text":"到了2040年人口中位數是52歲臺灣天翻地覆這你知道吧上次有跟我提點過提點過齁這個禮拜是那個國發會要公布新的人口因為那兩年公布一次那每年都是八月拖到現在不敢公布我問了那個國發委員那個劉主委說為什麼拖到現在是不是事情變得更嚴重他點頭"},{"start":11548.848,"end":11549.208,"text":"來 我們看一下"},{"start":11565.336,"end":11589.417,"text":"第一件我要拜託這個人事長第一個公務人員的觀念要翻新觀念翻新人總有責政府對高齡者處處歧視我在這裡這個已經是我談了一個會期了每一個部會除了衛福部之外幾乎所有的高齡者60歲以上的"},{"start":11590.543,"end":11595.03,"text":"沒有政策都沒辦法的事預算都不占不到他該部會的1%"},{"start":11596.909,"end":11625.395,"text":"教育部 中生教育師 佔教育部預算的0.2%文化部 數位部 幾乎都通通一樣差不多我再講了政府公務單位 包括上禮拜我還諮詢國科會說你有沒有高齡的科技政策他說科技政策不為特定人服務我說你把高齡者當特定人你要害死人我們國科會的科學家講說佔三分之一人口說是特定人"},{"start":11626.375,"end":11631.778,"text":"這充滿了在我們政府的腦袋裡面是不是可以請那個人事長我們這個真的是認知還留在1970年農業社會"},{"start":11638.277,"end":11660.399,"text":"我們的政府很多人員都還停留在這樣子來看高齡政策在80天台灣進入超高齡社會了是不是可以這樣子我們有一個教育訓練中心我們現在那個院長是不是在這裡是不是應該要排入這種課程讓大家有點警覺接下來第二個當然是數位平權"},{"start":11662.065,"end":11687.078,"text":"現在導入AI是一件好事嘛但是正如導入AI高齡者AI你知道嗎你知道那個在疫情之後所有的東西都要數位化你要打疫苗要上網不能出門這個吃飯你要叫那個負邊塔也要會懂的AI你要看個影片在家裡很無聊不能去都要會懂的結果你知道"},{"start":11689.105,"end":11697.425,"text":"連臺北市都有60%的高齡者沒有能力使用數位化我們政府都要數位化你有沒有去兼顧這一塊"},{"start":11702.413,"end":11721.299,"text":"委員關心的是數位包容的部分事實上整個數化部在推動這個過程中也一直有去注意到那剛才委員關注了議題事實上總統在國慶的一個演說裡面也有特別提到關注老年人的這個福利的部分"},{"start":11723.039,"end":11750.73,"text":"這個過面我們會協調相關應該要去注意啦應該注意因為講的都講很久了啦但是事實上都沒有在做啦OK落差很大我告訴你這個在2022年的資料我們的這個60歲以上的懸崖懸崖的段落的東西現在的政府都沒有發現都在做偏鄉跟兒童的數位落差成鄉除了成鄉沒有數位落差啦落差大概5%而已你這個落成"},{"start":11751.83,"end":11777.937,"text":"學歷跟這種年齡的落差像懸崖上的這一點要重視我最後一個問題再來的話就是制度這一點這個是今年6月的一個台鐵有一個人去考台鐵然後就錄取了因為他60幾歲錄取了第一個禮拜就開始辦退休因為他已經年滿65歲"},{"start":11779.713,"end":11801.951,"text":"哇 這個是不是一件很大的笑話我們現在公務體系的人力斷層非常的厲害那是不是包括我在勞動部勞動基準法第54條修正這個65歲以後可以登經勞資協商延長退休那很多人就跟反應就是軍公教可不可以"},{"start":11802.851,"end":11828.142,"text":"軍公教的現正高齡社會來臨這個已經命令到這裡了我問了到底這是誰負責權序不負責還是誰後來我問了還是你這邊要負責了你要啟動這樣子的討論跟修法的那個很多軍人40幾歲退休然後很多公務單位公務人員50歲就開始準備帶隊這個龐大的公務大軍的這個退休制度是不是人事長"},{"start":11829.022,"end":11838.388,"text":"是不是應該要到了應該要大幅檢討的時候了好 那是不是容許讓人事長在會後回覆給您好 謝謝 謝謝林委員 謝謝蘇人事長好 接下來有請葛委員盧君質詢好 謝謝主席 有請速發部雀次長有請雀次長"},{"start":11860.339,"end":11862.32,"text":"網路詐騙通報查詢網網路詐騙通報查詢網網路詐騙通報查詢網網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":11882.503,"end":11907.325,"text":"有一些蠻嚴重的問題我先很快速的提出先幫我下一頁首先啦 這個APP下載以後幫我按一下 下一頁再下一頁APP下載以後呢它基本上是所有大家通報的詐騙連結有摘要 有縮圖 完整的呈現這變成一個詐騙廣告大急警啊怎麼會這樣呢第二個我們再看下一頁"},{"start":11908.615,"end":11918.184,"text":"你把它擠緊了以後你點擊進去竟然還可以分享到底想要分享給誰啊是想要分享詐騙的內容給朋友看嗎到底怎麼回事這個設計是怎麼設計再來下一頁"},{"start":11921.072,"end":11948.192,"text":"明明裡面的頁面說是摘要結果每一個詐騙內文的資訊是完全呈現連連結都有耶連連結都給它保留這到底是怎麼回事啊再來看下一頁更誇張的連那個情色詐騙的訊息所有的內容竟然也把它這已經不是摘要了這是全文我算過了7,646個字整篇文章"},{"start":11949.053,"end":11971.108,"text":"在打詐通查的APP竟然可以完成的閱讀這是我們的打詐APP的目的嗎這到底怎麼回事我們今天的主題是AI我們難道沒有使用一些AI智慧的檢索或篩選來處理這些問題嗎連人力都沒有放進去更何況是AI可不可以先簡要的回答一下"},{"start":11972.521,"end":12000.548,"text":"跟委員報告我們在AI的部分主要是用來判斷詐騙那委員剛剛提的這些介面的問題的確是的確我第一次看到的時候也有提出這些也有這樣的感受因為你看起來就像一個搜尋引擎那我覺得因為這個目前還在測試階段我們會接受委員的這些建議在正式推出的時候會把這些問題改善掉"},{"start":12001.348,"end":12016.419,"text":"AI的目的是可以幫助我們來找出模式來進行判斷這些東西都是有模式的都是有跡可循的根文報告就是說你現在看到的他的詐騙通報網裡面大概有超過一半都是AI找出來的"},{"start":12018.199,"end":12044.365,"text":"找出來是一件事篩選跟呈現也是一件事這些問題AI也可以幫忙不要都推給人好那我們來講人的問題下一頁一樣還有很多潛在的法律問題非常非常的嚴重你看這個秀出來了有很多人的臉在上面這些人的照片很可能都是被盜用的你們有辦法去檢查嗎你們有去做檢查嗎在下一頁"},{"start":12045.532,"end":12066.238,"text":"左邊這張圖呢是一位朱姓主播右邊這張圖裡面有位吳姓名作家這些人的照片顯然是未經同意被使用的被詐騙集團拿去用結果我們的通查平台竟然還大剌剌把它展現縮圖展現在這裡是怎麼樣是要給他們二次傷害嗎是要幫詐騙集團來宣傳嗎"},{"start":12069.379,"end":12096.695,"text":"這已經不是什麼AI的問題這是根本性的問題我是嚴正懷疑這個專案裡面背後到底是不是有什麼設計上的缺失是不是有人要負責啊我跟委員報告一下就是說第一個我想當初他會選擇要全部秀出來是為了讓民眾可以明確的比較那可是如果有這樣的疑慮的話我們在我們正式推出的時候會做調整打斷你齁"},{"start":12098.757,"end":12119.839,"text":"這個是不是什麼疑慮啦 測試版都不是藉口違反法律的事情政府不要帶頭做上線之前不管你是測試還是非測試APP平台就有測試的機制叫testfly我們也不是沒學過啊網站也可以用測試的機制去擋流啊你為什麼要這樣大拉的出來然後什麼東西都說是測試呢當然我們理解啦"},{"start":12120.299,"end":12120.9,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12135.476,"end":12155.755,"text":"這個名稱不一致啊我們要做打詐最重要的就是要給人信任信賴產業嘛對吧我如果三天兩頭都換名字你會相信我嗎我三天兩頭換手機你會相信我嗎結果我們的打詐通查網的名字呢都完全不一樣這字還有點太小了我幫你唸出來我們的這個速發部的部長就上一頁"},{"start":12157.036,"end":12158.637,"text":"打詐通報查詢網打詐通查網網路詐騙通報查詢網網路詐騙通報查詢網網路詐騙通報查詢網網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":12176.661,"end":12204.709,"text":"你們的連結也不在第一頁第一頁是內政部的我們理解SEO累積需要時間但是能不能聯繫一下內政部把我們的這個連結就放在內政部搜尋結果第一名的這個頁面上面這個很難嗎打詐不是要跨部會合作嗎所以這一點是要有待努力最後我們來看一下下一頁對不起爭取一點時間因為這真的太重要了很多人在用你們自己說有6000人以上今天說不定已經破萬了"},{"start":12205.569,"end":12234.721,"text":"你們那個app的logo亂改最上面那個是前兩天的叫moda下面那個是昨天改的叫測試版moda的大小寫又不一樣你這到底是詐騙集團做的還是你外包出去還是內部的人員做的一個東西名字可以不一樣logo icon也可以不一樣這到底怎麼回事下一頁再來一些隱藏的問題我們來看一下速度反應速度太慢而且誰來把關我們看下一頁"},{"start":12237.156,"end":12259.794,"text":"這個10月11號就有人上傳了監理站的偽造網頁喔是要騙民眾去刷卡的喔到現在他已經說已經通知速發布了當天就通知速發布了結果現在還沒下下來啊我們看下一頁我自己是立法委員有一個偽造的頁面我自己通報結果到現在也還在上面下一頁"},{"start":12261.116,"end":12289.874,"text":"賴清德總統的官方YouTube被通報結果對你們說是疑似詐騙網頁這是怎麼回事啊我想今天都只是一個交流啦那也謝謝主席啦我想打詐通查網是一個很好的開始但是我們絕對要導入最好的科技最先進的科技我們要用科技來打詐不要只是測試不要只是做做樣子人民非常的期待我們也一定要努力好不好謝謝好謝謝各位委員謝謝次長"},{"start":12290.674,"end":12290.754,"text":"委員好"},{"start":12313.243,"end":12340.776,"text":"委員長好我想政府推動AI這是跟國際接軌我們也全力推動我們私自在討論也就是政府針對AI的整個相關技術跟應用那您也在6月份的時候簽訪行政院來核定提升行政院公務人員人工智慧智能實施計畫"},{"start":12343.898,"end":12368.488,"text":"你的目標是什麼所有的公務人員的DNA要有人工智慧是他的標配的概念所有的公務人員的DNA要有AI的標配也就是AI導入提升公務的效能也要強化整個政府公共服務的質量 對不對"},{"start":12369.908,"end":12395.391,"text":"對 那繼續我們來談論你要建立各階層對於AI的認識跟共識你也要透過種子人才的一個培訓嘛 對不對這針對於關鍵人才是非常的重要這是目前你所推動的所以本席要請教你目前的進度如何因為據本席了解你預定要辦了六場嘛 是嗎"},{"start":12399.756,"end":12413.905,"text":"針對科長以上的這些種子我們今年會辦一班明年會辦五班因為每一班的課程會有三天的課程受完訓以後他還是要去考試所以今年辦一場你這六場是明年五場"},{"start":12415.125,"end":12434.019,"text":"對 另外這個還要搭配樹花部因為我們辦的是針對業務人員的科長以上樹花部辦的是針對諮詢人員我們兩個機關是有在合作你在7月份的時候你沒有報告你在7月份的時候你辦了高階人才AI的共識營內部的訓練成員是以部長為主是嗎"},{"start":12438.257,"end":12439.778,"text":"各層級大家陸續那請教在你的7月份辦的高階人才的以部長為主的共事營的主軸是什麼"},{"start":12457.113,"end":12475.062,"text":"大概我們有請幾個比較有名的講者來講整個國家導入AI的一個機會跟它的挑戰這些相關的然後在應用實務上要導入可能會面臨這個是在7月份的時候部長級的主軸嗎?部長、次長還有三級機關首長基本上就是以這個主軸"},{"start":12483.746,"end":12508.972,"text":"所以這個也就是各階層大家一起來訓練那麼同時我們在談到數位部跟你是同步的來合作所以因此你在公務機關運用AI的工作坊以及公務機關AI應用的成果競賽這是你們目的要做的也就是互相的經驗交流跟學習是不是如此"},{"start":12510.573,"end":12524.549,"text":"提到的工作坊跟競賽是速化部主辦我們是協作你們協作是以他為主嗎以他為主大家互相合作是所以在這樣的情況下你的目的要做什麼"},{"start":12525.799,"end":12546.849,"text":"我覺得這一個很重要的今年以今年年底要辦的這個工作坊主要就是讓以有些中央跟地方那已經導入人工智慧的就是請他們來demo他們從故鄉為什麼要去導入人工智慧導入的人工智慧之前before跟after來分享"},{"start":12547.529,"end":12549.33,"text":"所以人事長你剛才所說的也就是希望在整個AI的運用能夠增加在我們行政"},{"start":12569.74,"end":12571.101,"text":"今年年底他要提出AI的應用執意來作為公務機關帶來哪些的幫助"},{"start":12593.012,"end":12594.554,"text":"在年底速發部要釋出AI應用指引"},{"start":12609.144,"end":12625.836,"text":"你不知道這個事情啊那你怎麼跟他合作呢我知道這個問題你知道這個問題他什麼時候要公布你不知道我不曉得什麼時候他可以公布那剛剛他主辦工作坊成果發表他主辦你們要交流那你連數位部"},{"start":12626.656,"end":12652.299,"text":"他年底要釋出的這個AI應用指引你都不知道你是人事長你的體系是牽扯了所有的行政部門那你都不知道他的KPI在哪裡那你要依照什麼指引你知不知道他什麼時候他要出來所以政府的橫向聯繫非常重要他主辦你協辦你連這個都不知道那怎麼辦"},{"start":12653.788,"end":12682.037,"text":"我們該主辦該協辦的還有一個你連這個都不知道最重要的AI的應用指引這一個指引非常的重要什麼時候要訂出來他年底第一版就會先出來你因著我的話講我也給你認同我告訴你難怪你會笑不要笑年底他會釋出AI的應用指引那最重要本事要告訴你也就是這個指引你知道他的方向是什麼嗎"},{"start":12691.292,"end":12701.637,"text":"這也是我們大家都清楚的而且世界各國也在這麼做本席要告訴你一件事情你有沒有加入你的AI風險管理"},{"start":12704.744,"end":12705.745,"text":"這是一定要的部分"},{"start":12733.021,"end":12754.46,"text":"你有沒有講 不是一定要 你有沒有告訴訴法部不是誰清楚每一個人都要有責任對不對 好 馬上請問你有沒有告訴訴法部 因為你跟他合作的你有沒有告訴他指引必須要有風險控管管理你有跟他談過什麼"},{"start":12757.774,"end":12778.208,"text":"你跟著本席的話語來講OK我也就是勉勵你務必這個風險管理非常的重要因為現在24小時7天也就是全天候在AI的導入所以因此本席還要再給你一個功課因為這個指引下來分布各個部門那到時候風險控管出了問題誰負責"},{"start":12784.966,"end":12789.787,"text":"請教讓他回答就好誰負責人事長這個問題既然我們提出這個指引必須要有風險管理那有問題誰負責是你人事長負責嗎還是各部門各個部位他引用的話他自己要負責因為該賴已經講清楚了我們該賴講清楚我們就是要理清楚好風險控告很重要謝謝好"},{"start":12813.39,"end":12813.73,"text":"人事長跟崔次長"},{"start":12833.527,"end":12841.171,"text":"主要對於這個人工智慧的部分呢我們還是主要停留在就是上課嘛讓公務員上課主要還是在這個部分"},{"start":12859.499,"end":12883.406,"text":"我想提一個東西就是其實我看了一下一些之前的資料就是我們政府尤其是之前賴總統先前在當行政院院長的時候他其實希望說把台灣發展成一個智慧的國家所以我們當時有一個政府的計畫就是前瞻基礎建設裡面的數位建設還有一個就是"},{"start":12884.646,"end":12910.165,"text":"一百零六年到一百零九年花五十億在建構國家級的AI的雲端服務跟高速運算平台那還有一個就是一百零六年到一百一十年他投入五十億是建立四個AI的創新研究中心但是呢到現在已經這麼多年過去了我們現在看到公部門我國公部門現在使用人工智慧工具的"},{"start":12911.005,"end":12924.934,"text":"事實是不多嘛那當然我知道這個是行政院的事情但是人總這邊你一直在弄很多的這個課程那我有一個問題想要請教請問一下你這課程是在教什麼東西啊"},{"start":12925.99,"end":12940.401,"text":"因為我個人的淺見通常都是我自己碩士的時候我寫的論文就是寫人工智慧的部分它主要分成兩大區塊一個是Coding的部分另外一個當然是應用"},{"start":12941.061,"end":12963.406,"text":"那我想對於公務員我們不可能是教他從程式怎麼寫開始教起對不對我們對於公務員的在職的教育一定是教育他你的這個公務員的領域裡面你需要什麼東西然後我再教導你那如果說這個工具相關的工具還沒有出來之前那這個教育課程的內容主要是什麼我想請教一下"},{"start":12966.702,"end":12982.981,"text":"張偉的這個問題我想我們課程大概會有AI的基礎核心概念應用生成式AI還有導入AI專案做法還有了解人工智慧的影響還有避免AI應用的風險這剛才張偉你提到的大概有幾個部分"},{"start":12984.042,"end":13005.218,"text":"上課數位學習實體課程另外還有一個很重要的我們就實作的課程我們事實上開種子班本身就是重點就是在實作第一個這個部分是實作因為你都要去上課你沒有在實際operation你學會的量也回去也不會去進嘛第二就是我們會帶他去"},{"start":13005.818,"end":13033.025,"text":"看一些實際上已經導入人工智慧去現場看去跟那些人去交流他這樣印象會比較深還會更好事實上我們是採一個複合式針對不同階層我們採取不同的訓練的一個方式對那我的意思是這樣就是說我們不用就是我們今天講東西我們不要打高空不要講華而不實的東西你幾個小時或十幾二十個小時你要教導一個人從AI"},{"start":13034.165,"end":13047.713,"text":"你要跟他講其實是聽不懂的啦所以最好的方式當然就是說工具出來的時候之後我們來教他怎麼樣去運用他那個部門所需要的那個工具嘛所以我當然一直覺得說我們已經這麼多年了就從那個賴總統還在當院長時代到現在"},{"start":13052.276,"end":13080.447,"text":"他主張的這個東西這麼多年了我們也花了我剛剛有提到了花了一百一百六十億下去了可是到現在還是人總在上課那上課又只是教導他這個的內容是什麼然後你說實際的運用或教他去操作可是他的部門又沒有因應相關因應的工具出來所以我有時候搞不太懂啊因為我以前在我以前當公務員的時候我們一套系統出來那"},{"start":13082.248,"end":13103.167,"text":"機關要我們去學習這套系統還會開一些相關課程教我怎麼去操作但是我現在知道的是大部分的公務部門他沒有類似的東西出來沒有類似的工具出來卻要這些公務員一直去上課那上了這個課會不會變成說對他的工作沒有太多的幫助那就只是消耗預算第二個就是說"},{"start":13104.068,"end":13125.217,"text":"我們都當過公務員嘛那公務員在面對這個在職教育的時候他甚至有時候你管考也不嚴謹像遠端上課有的人就是連上線之後人就跑掉那同事之間也會大家也會口口相傳你要怎麼點進去然後人家就不知道你根本沒在看我想這個我們都不騙人嘛我們都很清楚嘛所以這一塊"},{"start":13126.397,"end":13155.445,"text":"我們現在花了那麼多錢花了這麼多年然後建制到現在還在上課那這一塊可能你們自己要注意一下包括課程的內容我跟委員報告兩點第一點就是過去這五六年來很多中央機關跟地方政府都有在導入人工智慧一開始他們導入的是AI這兩年大家慢慢轉成CHAP GPT就是深層式的深層式的人工智慧事實上"},{"start":13157.246,"end":13171.261,"text":"這兩個事實上是有一個程度落差因為你導入的類似ChangeGPT這一種你必須要考慮到算力的問題考慮到資料的問題還有考慮到你的演送法的問題那過去這幾年我知道的"},{"start":13171.721,"end":13191.994,"text":"像桃園還有台北市、新北都有一些人工智慧導入不管在智慧交通、智慧醫療還有環境部他們也有導入一些空氣盒子事實上過去這幾年都有一些practice我覺得在這樣的一個基礎底下我們現在是坦白講"},{"start":13192.774,"end":13219.94,"text":"是從AI再進化到所謂的善用深層式人工智慧來加速政府的一個流程再造裡面一個很重要的剛才有委員在關心的兩個問題嘛一個是為民服務品質的提高一個是行政效力可是這裡面最核心的部分應該是一個流程改造你用新的東西進來你流程如果不改的話整個效果是會"},{"start":13221.54,"end":13240.466,"text":"人事長這個應該最清楚的說就是效率才是我們導入人工智慧最重要的一個核心那也要麻煩次長這邊就這些部分因為次長我們自己去看了一下那個新加坡他們所提出來的資料因為我們看了一下那個新加坡官方他有一個資料就是他有一個那個"},{"start":13241.186,"end":13255.022,"text":"佩爾專案主要是把那openAI跟那個chatGPT融進他們的那個word系統裡面去減輕公務員的寫作研究的一些負擔我想說因為我看他們的那個"},{"start":13256.603,"end":13282.238,"text":"報告裡面說他們的政府有85%的政府機關都有導入人工智慧的系統在協助公務員的辦這個是新加坡台北辦事處網頁裡面的資料我想說我們台灣在硬體上面竟然可以當一個世界領頭羊那在這個軟體的設計在這個AI的運用上面是不是也要加強一下這再麻煩次長這邊也能做到"},{"start":13284.218,"end":13308.606,"text":"有幾個小問題就請教跟人事長這邊請教一下人事長你知道我們現在公部門有多少勞工公部門好沒關係喔那這個你再問一下你的幕僚好了那我們今年那個勞基法修正之後65歲強制退休這個我們現在改成得由勞僱雙方去協商之後延後對不對"},{"start":13311.082,"end":13312.564,"text":"公有管理要點第21條適用勞基法的修正"},{"start":13322.722,"end":13324.203,"text":"因為各機關裡面的勞工其實是非常多蠻多的啦"},{"start":13348.833,"end":13366.744,"text":"現在他們各自向自己所屬的機關去詢問這個東西說可不可以適用這次勞基法修正所有的機關都推來推去但是因為關係到人這麼多是不是麻煩你們要趕快處理更何況這個要點是你們內部修正就可以嘛這應該很簡單啊"},{"start":13368.985,"end":13390.492,"text":"如果說是不是可以盡快把這個事情釐清否則就會變成說他的老闆如果是一般民間企業那我就適用這個可以雙方再協商如果我的老闆是公部門那我就不適用這個是很奇怪的好不好這麻煩人事長你這個部分能夠兩個月內能夠告訴我們一下你們的那個修法"},{"start":13391.212,"end":13396.018,"text":"公務人員協會法協會法不是人總所管的但是人總必須公務員的勤修及福利事項是人總在管的"},{"start":13413.21,"end":13428.506,"text":"這次我看到一個特種警消成立協會的門檻他這次草案是從800人降到300人是有降低他們成立這個協會的門檻有降低但是現在有一個問題就是說"},{"start":13433.371,"end":13447.683,"text":"原來的法案跟未來的草案其實都沒有提到都沒有同意說將來這個協會可以跟公部門有個團體協約出來那我想我看到前序不好意思再給我一分鐘"},{"start":13448.684,"end":13477.139,"text":"全序部的報告美國英國跟法國都有承認這些團體協約的權利就是這個協約權的結果是能夠有效拘束政府機關的否則這些團體你不讓他成立工會你也不敢讓他罷工結果他今天有任何的權利想要爭取像消防員的消防設備有問題或什麼結果他今天講沒有人理他們到現在還在抗爭每年死了幾位消防員"},{"start":13477.619,"end":13477.799,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13499.087,"end":13499.287,"text":"人事長可以嗎?"},{"start":13520.762,"end":13533.125,"text":"好,那就這樣做,謝謝那是,好,那謝謝,好,謝謝兩位謝謝吳釗偉,謝謝人事長,謝謝次長接下來有請高基因素美委員,高基因素美委員,高基因素美委員不在有請陳委員培育質詢謝謝主席,那有請人事長,謝謝請蘇人事長"},{"start":13548.341,"end":13568.518,"text":"委員好好 人事長無案時間有限我們就快速切入我相信我在聽了今天早上非常多委員對您的質詢你的回答我可以聽得出來你在AI這塊一定花足了時間做足了功課我們就直接切入重點你之前在一個論壇上你提到導入AI是為了改善公務員人力成本並且優化工作流程我非常認同"},{"start":13569.258,"end":13584.823,"text":"我自己有非常多朋友也是公務員其實在公務員這個位置上還是可以自我成就一些然後甚至有一些夢想的可能性所以我認為導入AI對公務機關日常繁瑣而且一直重複性高的工作絕對是好事可是我們來看一下剛剛有非常多委員問了這個是我們現在找到有關於有經濟部或者是航港局開的一些課程"},{"start":13590.365,"end":13609.214,"text":"那這些課程看起來呢你現在在研究對不對沒關係你們開了非常非常多課程剛剛委員問了那甚至呢在我們教委員會國科會也提出人工智慧基本法AI基本法的草案也許在年底就會往下進度但是在這個草案裡面我們看到他提到一個最重要的事情就是"},{"start":13609.614,"end":13625.481,"text":"人工智慧的技術雖然會帶來社會跟經濟的效益但同時也可能對個人跟社會帶來新的風險跟影響其實剛剛有非常多委員關心這一題但我不會叫你回答有什麼風險跟影響因為如果你回答出來你就可以得諾貝爾獎了"},{"start":13627.233,"end":13648.451,"text":"也就是說在發展AI這條路上其實有太多不可測跟大家根本不知道會發生什麼事情的情況下對不對我們只能做一些我們所知道的預防但是對於更多科技發展的未來例如說其實沒有人知道AI會在這兩年突然大爆炸在30年前其實就有人工智慧但是因為算力的關係所以我想要問對於這個不可知的風險跟影響人事長你自己怎麼看"},{"start":13653.013,"end":13680.862,"text":"我跟委員報告大概之前賴總統當行政院院長的時候就已經找我們去談人工智慧導入以後可能產生的風險跟衝擊就是5、6年前我們已經在討論那隨著整個人工智慧的一個演化因為它的算力算力的提升對甚至未來還有量子電腦的它造成的一個衝擊事實上現在相關部會事實上都有在評估包含"},{"start":13682.643,"end":13702.997,"text":"國科會的基本法還有事務部訂的一個應用指引的該來這些都會把它列進來好沒關係我時間有限意思就是說其實你們早在幾年前就開始評估並且如果按照這個說法我相信你們手邊應該有一些資料甚至可能已經有一些機關在應用上開始出現一些可能性的問題我說的是可能性的問題"},{"start":13705.379,"end":13730.529,"text":"假設我今天讓我的同仁問一下卻GBT說我是一個公務人員我想要了解政府機關導入AI提升效能這個是問GBT for all我們來看一下他告訴我們可以幫忙處理日常行政可以資源決策可以優化公共服務GBT還告訴我們可以協助監管還有教育跟培訓但是GBT同時也提醒我們為政府機關帶來高效的運作模式可試驗面臨隱私數據安全我就直接提出來第一個"},{"start":13732.23,"end":13754.47,"text":"目前我們知道台灣有自己在做泰德但是各個部會現在是開始用泰德在做一些事情嗎還是其實是用拉瑪帶回自己的每一個部會自己做開發還是透過標案請外面廠商做一些事情我覺得我時間有限我不勞煩人事長在這邊回答但是我覺得人事長你必須要協同各個部會去理解他們目前在做的事情到底是走到哪一個階段"},{"start":13755.191,"end":13777.809,"text":"再來哪些資料可以被處理或是可以怎麼被處理還有每一個行政機關他們對於所謂非機敏資料的定義我們目前聽到為止好像沒有太多共同的討論但是我覺得這個是人民會在意的事情人民當然相信政府導入AI是好的公務人員也相信導入AI是好的可是非機敏資料我身為一個就診的人"},{"start":13778.149,"end":13781.052,"text":"關於後續的配套措施,我們如何查錯?如何精整作業?如何確保資料沒有因為外流或誤用導致一些風險?如何確保資料沒有因為公務需求的使用?"},{"start":13801.889,"end":13802.149,"text":"人事長 簡單回應一下"},{"start":13828.129,"end":13855.758,"text":"我想這個部分我們會跟書畫部一起來討論事實上以我的理解這個過程中很重要的是transparency我的資料在政府機關的流通被哪些機關什麼時候用到當事人一定要有能夠在第一個時間就知道等一下 任市長你這句話有點危險我先跟你說你說當事人要第一時間知道可是光是今天交資料出來這麼多部會他們所有的資料都能夠被每一個"},{"start":13857.108,"end":13858.228,"text":"人事長你剛講這個我都替你擔心我很開心聽到你說"},{"start":13878.115,"end":13890.564,"text":"我要被授權或是所有行政機關要來找我這個人授權我當然聽到是好事可是就真的就行政機關行政的角度真的可行嗎其實剛剛張偉在問的時候我有聽張偉對於資料也非常的在意但是人事長你剛剛這樣講出來我真的害怕捏我們真的要每一個部會去發動授權這件事情嗎我跟您報告主席不好意思又幾分鐘就好我們泰德在座我們台灣自己的泰德在做資料訓練的時候以我來自的出版業告訴我"},{"start":13907.216,"end":13933.621,"text":"他也得去叫出版業授權給他們可是不付錢欸那但是我們還有付了一千萬給中央社去授權那個資料也就是說資料有沒有價格這件事情資料是不是有價這件事情就很多商業跟非商業討論我們都可以吵得半天更何況是一般人民的資料所以我今天不是要來argue說不能用這個資料而是我們在用這個資料的時候我們如何定定跟人民溝通的那個管道把這個論述講清楚不然我相信所有的人權團體站出來我們會被K死欸"},{"start":13937.864,"end":13938.545,"text":"好,謝謝主席,謝謝人事長,謝謝"},{"start":13946.153,"end":13967.522,"text":"蘇慶權委員．蘇慶權委員．蘇慶元委員．蔡瑜委員．蔡瑜蔡瑜委員．洪孟凱委員．洪孟凱．洪孟凱委員．葉元智委員．葉元智．葉元智委員．登記發言委員．均已發言完畢．詢答結束．委員質詢時．要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者．請相關機關競速送交．個別委員及本會"},{"start":13968.763,"end":13977.964,"text":"那麼委員謝榮介所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長暨相關部會列席就「政府機關導入AI提升效能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 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27.558,"end":1938.342,"text":"鐵道局局長楊振軍運輸研究所所長林紀國國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜威臺灣鐵路高速股份有限公司總經理鄭光遠"},{"start":1949.646,"end":1960.018,"text":"國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德主任秘書姚承安執行長林佩達主長吳繼春介紹在場委員李坤澤委員"},{"start":1970.726,"end":1996.414,"text":"本次會議邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就《臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫》進行專題報告．並備質詢。那我們首先就是請這個列席機關來報告。我們首先請交通部武聖遠次長報告。"},{"start":2012.982,"end":2040.914,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生今天應邀到國營會來就臺鐵鐵道安全提升計畫進行專題報告進行各位委員來指教那臺北鐵道系統包括鐵路好規定的鐵路系統以及大眾法規規定的捷運其中捷運的部分是由地方政府來負責監督鐵路系統則由交通部為主管機關那由鐵道局來監督管理那就鐵路的部分來進行報告"},{"start":2042.395,"end":2046.379,"text":"第一在目前鐵道安全的水準的現況臺灣鐵路系統包括高鐵、台鐵、磷鐵、銅鐵分別由"},{"start":2052.93,"end":2078.685,"text":"總共我這四個鐵路那台鐵在1、2年的一般事故平均大概有42件那其中的主要的原因大概是出軌、火災以及平交道事故以及民眾入侵的傷亡事故那高鐵近三年並沒有重大的這個行車事故一般行車事故是一件那主要是一個維修時段的工程車的事故另外是車輛的一個故障它是一個急電工"},{"start":2079.585,"end":2094.341,"text":"那運轉保安裝置的故障造成延誤那另外臨鐵的部分大概也中那行車事故有一件一般行車事故有七件臨鐵的 糖鐵的部分中那及一般行車事故各一件"},{"start":2095.282,"end":2111.459,"text":"那就這個鐵路安全的監理的部分我們交通部以及鐵道局、慈禧的交通對各鐵路的一個安全監理大概分了兩個來做一個報告從制度面以及執行面在制度面的部分我們修正法規那111年到現在已經完成238條的這個鐵路法規的一個修正"},{"start":2114.142,"end":2132.121,"text":"那主要就是明定這個監理機關為鐵道局的職權另外臨鐵的駕駛也須由鐵道局來檢定、給證提高這個危害重要的路段的一個八則強化行車人員的監理另外我們頒訂國家鐵路安全計畫"},{"start":2134.063,"end":2157.124,"text":"交通部從111年開始推動國家鐵道安全計畫以旅客臨死亡為安全的政策方針以及目標我國的鐵路安全的指標以及目標值針對這個不符合的部分我們的要求提出原因的分析還有改善的措施並強化檢查等監理作為"},{"start":2159.744,"end":2182.793,"text":"另外我們推動安全管理系統就所謂的SMS江部運營所從108年持續來這個辦理安全管理系統相關研究計畫包括制度化的一個策略機動的推動的機制實務作業指引等以及安全的目標管理那江部在110年修正鐵路行政安全規則要求"},{"start":2183.773,"end":2208,"text":"鐵路應建制安全管理系統並且從今年113年來實施第4個我們建立志願報告系統那主要是提供鐵路的從業人員來志願報告的一個管道來主動發掘潛伏鐵道安全的安全性的一個危害因子來督促這個鐵道營運機構採取必要一個措施"},{"start":2208.8,"end":2215.909,"text":"那這個這部分鐵道局已經在112年完成建制那目前總共接獲了27件的一個報告"},{"start":2218.121,"end":2241.65,"text":"在執行面的部分事故事件的檢討以及調查我們這是就鐵路運轉中的發生事故事件的進行檢討在113年已經進行了16件那定期不定期的檢查為了加強對這個鐵路的檢查深度以及頻率鐵道局這個引入檢查員的制度"},{"start":2244.042,"end":2255.251,"text":"111年就營運以及維修高風險的項目辦理主題市的檢查總共有13次就村水輸運以及其他個案辦理臨時檢查18次113年並就安全的關鍵項目實施例行檢查有24次"},{"start":2262.847,"end":2276.941,"text":"另外我們發布鐵路行車安全通報發現有不同不安全的風險立即發布鐵安公告那從111年到現在我們已經發布了12件那持續追蹤台鐵安全改革"},{"start":2278.751,"end":2287.342,"text":"建議403發生地震以後東部的鐵路安全問題我們就危險邊坡、橋樑還有監控措施召開會議來請臺鐵局來做一個改善措施"},{"start":2293.149,"end":2315.844,"text":"另外我們引進第三方的評鑑我們接近JRC日本的公司的一個經驗111年、112年委託第三方評鑑單位來辦理臺鐵安全管理系統的一個評鑑我們希望能夠透過外部的機制檢核臺鐵公司的安全改革的一個成效在安全改革的辦理情況"},{"start":2317.998,"end":2344.653,"text":"按今年的這個鐵路系統的事故的一個太陽將不應透過相關的調查以及檢查機制來持續督促鐵路機構來加強改善臺鐵在107年及111年發生兩次的重大的嚴格事故那我們就這個臺鐵的安全改革的半年這邊做一個進一步的說明第一個在他用所謂的五年安全計畫"},{"start":2346.858,"end":2360.757,"text":"這五年來,臺鐵公司在113年的1月1日掛牌以後,即將確保安全列為第一要務,從調整組織一個編制、建立安全體系等這些面向在求精進,確保營業的穩定和安全性。"},{"start":2366.343,"end":2368.626,"text":"臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫目前幫你情況是以安全重點為核心工作"},{"start":2388.348,"end":2413.381,"text":"從112年9月開始立案那歷經臺鐵公司的第二次的安全管理委員會的一個會議還有第1屆董事會第7次的會議審議通過、決議照案進行第二個我們成立五年安全提升計畫的專業管理辦公室推動了這樣的一個團隊每兩個月召開一次會議並提報公司董事會安全管理委員會來審核"},{"start":2415.745,"end":2439.582,"text":"我們持續優化安全管理系統在113年引進新的專業技術服務團隊的協助臺鐵SMS管理風險管理的一個程序並配合交通部推動公司的SMS的一個政策的目標辦理臺鐵安全管理系統的第三方評鑑來確認它推動SMS的一個有效性"},{"start":2440.629,"end":2464.983,"text":"那在這個改善組織安全的架構董事會設定有一個所謂的安全管理委員會那另外設定一個營業安全處由總經理直接督導另外在分區的部分營運處加設一個安全科所以建立這樣的一個新的安全體系來強化營業安全基層的一個管理"},{"start":2468.171,"end":2495.002,"text":"目前辦理大概在安全管理的委員會已經召開兩次會議包括追認113的營運安全的計畫另外營運安全處每月以及定期安全檢討相關的會議總共累計已經達40次在這個營運安全處他也辦理行車安全檢測重大節日前的連續假期前的行車保安的一個查核目前總共辦了20次"},{"start":2498.196,"end":2518.748,"text":"強化安全策略一個作為第一個降低行車事故訂定臺鐵公司5年的行車事故的目標值從月113年起逐年降低到117年降低的這個件數達到50%另外113年的1月到7月因為天然的一個災損民眾侵入鐵路路線以及"},{"start":2525.232,"end":2543.34,"text":"為您達到目標,將會持續檢討改善。後續作為改善,透過5年的安全提升計畫執行引進安全管理系統及第三方評鑑,來建立臺鐵行車及企業安全文化,增加安全考核頻率,"},{"start":2545.095,"end":2571.867,"text":"在這個11月將擴大舉辦公司的行車安全跑安設備的檢查以及考核另外加速北回路段增設8處的阻隔設施告警系統以及西正線的搶通復原工作持續辦理漢本道衝車間在第二天次首班車發車以前先用維修公車來進行路線的刑檢"},{"start":2575.714,"end":2594.088,"text":"在零四零三花蓮強震以及豪大雨天災使得有些路段發生落石土石流這些部分我們辦理土石流的一個整治希望能夠增加民粹道那辦理這個和平到從德的一個改憲的一個評估"},{"start":2597.052,"end":2624.68,"text":"臺鐵公司每年定期對所有員工進行安全的一個知識以及緊急應變技能的一個培訓來強化安全的一個教育、訓練以及深化員工的一個安全意識最後結議這個鐵路安全運輸具有運輸大、班次密集、快速便捷的一個特性那將持續從自路面、設備面還有執行面來演繹精進安全作為具以強化、監理"},{"start":2628.267,"end":2638.015,"text":"提供旅客安全的鐵道的運輸服務一聲報告,敬請各位支持、指教。謝謝好,謝謝五次長的報告接下來請國家運輸安全調查委員會林信的主委報告"},{"start":2660.802,"end":2671.401,"text":"主席各位委員、各位理事、各位先生今天很榮幸應邀列席貴委員會就臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫進行報告請各位委員指教"},{"start":2672.883,"end":2695.333,"text":"運安會依組織法及運輸事故調查法執行重大運輸事故的調查以及提出運輸安全改善建議我們調查的範圍包括航空、水路、鐵道、公路那麼我們也透過系統的整合跟調查發掘可能噪音以及安全的風險提出改善建議避免類似事件再發生"},{"start":2696.96,"end":2726.186,"text":"現在就重大鐵道事故的調查的概況來做一個簡單的報告本會自108.8要成立到現在重大鐵道事故的立案共有30件那麼28件已經結案那麼這幾天我們也提出了221項的安全改善建議以下就現在調查中有關鐵道的重大運輸事故的事件做一個說明"},{"start":2727.591,"end":2752.791,"text":"有關臺鐵列車臨角站正線出軌的這個事故啊那今年在2月12日就是臺鐵一個脾氣線的一個列車啊從八斗子站開往京同站那在早上10點54分的時候經過新北市臨角站發生出軌那麼這個事故沒有人傷亡可是呢他有發生這個整個四時列車的一個損害"},{"start":2754.193,"end":2783.242,"text":"那麼這個案子已經在今年的8月發布事實資料的報告一定明年的6月會完成最終的調查報告那麼第二個事故是臺北新自強號列車在新河嶺隧道正線出軌的這個事故這個是在今年6月21日這個也是臺北自強號列車從花蓮縣的列車站出發開往新北市的樹林站大概下午4點50分的時候經過花蓮縣新河嶺隧道南口的時候他"},{"start":2783.982,"end":2787.486,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":2799.88,"end":2826.081,"text":"本會在7月19日也發布了一個所謂調查期間的運輸安全通告請鐵道營運機關評估土石流、潛勢溪流可能影響鐵道橋樑之路段建立整備之監控及應變機制避免列車因撞擊屬實造成事故這個案子依據在今年11月發布事實資料報告明年的8月會完成最終的調查報告"},{"start":2827.847,"end":2855.592,"text":"有關安全改善建議的追蹤目前為止在鐵道部有221項的安全改善建議完成改善結案的有181項剩下40項各機關構仍在積極改善中其中以台鐵公司最多主要是施工安全管理列車的維修檢查列車的運轉調度還有平交道的安全防護等等"},{"start":2857.503,"end":2881.16,"text":"那麼關於調查期間安全通告本會在個案重大運輸事故調查的過程中如果發現對鐵路安全有立即影響的那麼我們都會誓死喊請相關機關採取預防的設施改善它的運輸安全至108年8月要成立基金我們總共有發布6項調查期間的運輸安全通告"},{"start":2883.936,"end":2909.645,"text":"請參閱其他有關鐵道安全的這個促進作為我們這一百一十年開始提升鐵道安全針對鐵道安全的重要議題邀請國內的專家學者、鐵道監理機關、營業機關都會進行經驗的分享共同討論不管是研討會、論壇會我們都會做一個平台讓大家能夠互相交流包括發揮他他商支持前車世界的目的"},{"start":2911.941,"end":2930.335,"text":"今年我們預定在11月1號在高雄市要舉辦所謂運輸安全的研討會議題包括鐵道的外務入侵之防範機制、集團氣候下天然災變鐵道預警的機制"},{"start":2931.888,"end":2943.32,"text":"與鐵道虛擬世界的組織與防範特別邀請專家、學者、鐵道經理機關、營運機關等共同參與就鐵道事故的安全危害控管策略進行交流與討論"},{"start":2946.214,"end":2963.281,"text":"本會將持續辦理重大鐵道事務的調查作業﹐協助相關機關落實安全改善協議之執行﹐以及與集體機關營運機構共同就安全議題﹐及其事務的交流﹐以達成鐵道運輸安全的目標﹐以上報告進行執照。謝謝"},{"start":2972.179,"end":2999.246,"text":"好那現在進行詢答那先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息那現在請登記第一位李坤澤委員發言"},{"start":3007.674,"end":3014.939,"text":"好,謝謝陳書悅召委,請一下吳聖元次長,杜薇董事長,鐵道局楊振軍局長"},{"start":3022.677,"end":3042.749,"text":"市長好因為極端氣候的肆虐我們臺灣也剛好是在地震帶上也是颱風路徑常常經過的一個國家所以說對於交通系統的韌性尤其是鐵道系統如何提升它的強韌的這個韌性來確保人民的"},{"start":3047.091,"end":3057.309,"text":"出行的安全以及交通系統的穩定性這是交通部重要的工作跟責任那我們對於強化交通系統的韌性"},{"start":3060.427,"end":3085.134,"text":"市長簡單說明一下目前的簡單的做法我想我先簡單報告一下針對我們以現在目前大概對台灣的結論氣候影響比較大大概就是在花蓮的北迴段的部分從上次地震以後地質非常的一個脆弱下大雨到一些所謂的土修上來我想針對這部分我們除了跟"},{"start":3086.834,"end":3109.942,"text":"會進行一些所謂的流域的一個聯訪機制跟上游的林業署、農村水保署我們進行還有公路局進行一些區域聯訪他得到的一些訊息能夠提供給我們知道這是一個預期的第二個我們底下我們的工程的部分我們做一些所謂的清淤還有包括我們可能會做一些所謂的排沙相含我們把它加大"},{"start":3110.502,"end":3114.545,"text":"市長這是從分兩個方面來簡單的一個詢問第一個我們是必須針對交通系統全面的韌性的加強來確保交通運輸的安全這是全面性的也不只是只有東部這一段"},{"start":3134.696,"end":3153.391,"text":"那東部這一段主要它是在河嶺跟崇德也就是台九線164.4K這個部分其實就是一個經常的土石流、泥流傾瀉而下造成公路系統以及鐵道系統的這種安全的"},{"start":3153.931,"end":3153.951,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3176.232,"end":3198.879,"text":"臺鐵這一次有實施這個預警性的封閉這是一個很重要的安全的一個提升的方面但是更重要還是要強化我們相關的這些軌道的安全來做一個工程的改善跟提升來降低大自然災害對交通系統的這種衝擊來這個祝董事長簡單說明一下我們這個預警系統這一次實施的狀況"},{"start":3203.663,"end":3225.157,"text":"跟委員報告我們這一次所謂預警性的我們的停駛其實跟我們剛剛提到的我們的告警還有我們的監視都有關係那剛剛次長有提到就是聯防機制我們在上端上邊坡我們公路系統有發現異狀的時候我們下面鐵路系統就有在做準備"},{"start":3226.278,"end":3242.235,"text":"那另外剛剛委員有提到很重要的就是這邊寫的4點有關於這個安全提升的這些各項目我們臺鐵公司我們已經都把它納到我們現在的5年精進的這個安全提升的一個計畫裡面"},{"start":3243.456,"end":3266.51,"text":"杜董事長我們對於彎道改善及倒車、鋼軌更新這是一個很重要的基礎因為我們要減少軌道結構的老化來提升它這種基礎設施的安全性那入侵阻隔設施及告警系統的這個建制尤其是在高風險的這個路段必須要強化這些基本的設施那"},{"start":3268.03,"end":3291.738,"text":"邊坡的巡檢系統的精進必須要提升它的科技巡檢的這樣的一個能力花蓮地震災後的復原重建是很重要的要提高它的防災的一個能力面對自然災害我們必須要做到快速的預警還有及時的反應來降低這種"},{"start":3293.058,"end":3313.012,"text":"大自然災害對交通系統安全以及相關運輸安全的一個衝擊那我們現在提到我們在過去有很多安全的計畫杜董事長交通委員會我們過去我在20多年來在對台鐵的這個安全提升的支持"},{"start":3314.541,"end":3333.917,"text":"這個是大家都看得到的我們看到我們有買很多的新車不管是乘機列車、區間列車或是支線車或是機車花了將近就要一千億然後我們也支持臺鐵相關的安全的提升計畫包括六年安全的"},{"start":3334.818,"end":3360.815,"text":"提升計畫或是小半徑彎曲的這個改善計畫電路智慧化的提升計畫以及軌道結構安全的提升計畫現在又有一個五年安全的提升計畫那這個部分其實我們有兩個問題第一個就是說五年安全的提升計畫就關係到SMS它的這個系統我們的建立"},{"start":3361.736,"end":3377.582,"text":"只是增加運輸工作沒有辦法去落實問題的意識還有安全的文化的建立這個等一下我們再來一一的說明還有會不會再延誤啊因為我們六年安全提升計畫就延誤了好久那相關的問題有沒有解決"},{"start":3378.502,"end":3401.277,"text":"那SNS我們先來講第一個安全的管理系統效果的一個評估那基層都在懷念以及我們的觀察認為SNS安全系統是一個重要的系統但是目前都是流於形式它只是增加基層員工的文書作業工作歸檔然後再加上行政程序緩鎖的確認機制"},{"start":3404.501,"end":3413.309,"text":"變成只是一種形式沒有辦法去針對問題因為員工也沒有參與啊農地做文書作業沒有辦法建立這種問題的意識跟安全文化來"},{"start":3414.369,"end":3443.161,"text":"杜董事長簡單說明一下我跟委員報告其實我們SMS不同於以往我們SMS我們現在是站在風險管控的角度來做所以當然這個裡面會有風險管控當然是很重要這樣我講就是它流於形式只是增加文書作業只是將工作歸檔然後增加再一次的確認機制的這樣一個繁瑣的程序而已你沒有辦法去建立這種"},{"start":3445.062,"end":3470.143,"text":"對於問題的解決還有安全文化的建立問題在這邊啦 董事長各位委員報告這一個剛剛講到從風險來開始其實分析每一個風險後面到最終的步驟就是怎麼樣去預防改善這個我們現在SMS的階段都已經把它建立起來那的確這個裡面會有一些文書的工作"},{"start":3470.603,"end":3478.342,"text":"那我們的做法是把以往我們這些比較浮於形式的文書工作我們把它裁剪掉"},{"start":3479.824,"end":3501.274,"text":"這個必須要去審視內部的考評集合以及行政的管理系統我們要精簡過時還有無效的程序的另外納入員工參與安全決策的這個設計跟討論這個非常重要要建立平等的會議以及協商的機制要重視基層員工的這個意見"},{"start":3502.515,"end":3523.716,"text":"另外五年安全的提升計畫具體的時程表我們看到行車六年安全改善計畫我也都參與在其中整個預算還有整個政策的執行我們就看到這個多方的原因六年行車安全改善計畫就有兩度的展延"},{"start":3525.321,"end":3531.878,"text":"6年變成10年了真的要在交通委員會待的夠久才能看到你們這個實施的狀況"},{"start":3533.476,"end":3554.683,"text":"我看到我們兩度展演當然是有很多像環境的變遷或者是需求的變動甚至是政策的名義或者是招標困難當然我們也碰到零軌工程的這種施工造成延誤或者是疫情的衝擊等等但這個都不應該是成為理由"},{"start":3557.003,"end":3574.79,"text":"這個來杜董事長簡單說明一下是跟委員報告這個行車安全改善六年計畫我們預計就是今年我們會達成那所以接續這個計畫下去就我剛剛有提及的五年安全提升計畫是接續然後它是站在風險管控的角度來繼續來實施"},{"start":3576.511,"end":3600.411,"text":"那剛剛委員提到一個重點就是說五年安全提升計畫我們預期第一個五年計畫我們會在117年我們會來達成但是但是後面還會陸續有第二個第三個這個五年的計畫這個是我們公司現在目前我們提升安全的一個構想杜董事長也因為時間的關係我最後啊"},{"start":3601.251,"end":3628.728,"text":"針對五年安全的這個提升計畫我們應該要針對完善的安全體系也必須調整教育的訓練發展智慧鐵道、更新設施、設備等事道方面來全面推動相關的台鐵的交通安全的改善那五年安全提升計畫應該制定更具體的執行的時程這個次長我們針對月度或是季度必須要來檢視"},{"start":3630.689,"end":3659.084,"text":"每項任務都必須要進展如期是 這個委員指正的事我想後面剛剛提到的不管是每一頁或是每一季我想我們這個部分我們會來進行這個瞭解管控杜董事長我最後你也是一個老台鐵也長久為台鐵的發展跟這個永續的經營都一直在努力不過這幾年我一直覺得我們一直支持你買新車"},{"start":3660.657,"end":3660.997,"text":"臺鐵的安全"},{"start":3679.144,"end":3695.19,"text":"民眾還是有疑慮對於台鐵的效率民眾還是不滿意對於相關安全系統的建立目前也是在於形勢對於真正能夠建立安全的機制還有一大段路要走"},{"start":3696.31,"end":3717.306,"text":"杜董事長最後讓你說明一下是 各位委員報告我們這個落差我們會很具體的我們落實的來執行那剛剛有講到五年安全提升計畫他會有這個很詳細的考核或跟被接受考核的這個在計畫裡面我們都有項列好 最後請次長再簡單補充說明一下"},{"start":3719.147,"end":3742.36,"text":"好 我想剛提到的我對這個台鐵目前當然它有很多事情要做包括它的硬體上建設的一個韌性的一個加強那還有一個剛那個委員所提到非常重要我個人認為很重要就是企業的安全文化這個形塑啊對台鐵是真的非常重要這個我一直在跟這個董事長還有他們管理階層一直在談"},{"start":3744.096,"end":3771.269,"text":"我們應該要有社會責任去把提供一個安全、優質的服務給民眾來使用這部分我想我們會持續再來跟這個臺鐵共同來努力自然安全力的督促是好 謝謝李崑禎委員好 謝謝那在許志堅委員發言之前我再補充介紹到場的委員首先我們歡迎林國成委員"},{"start":3774.144,"end":3774.784,"text":"許智傑委員許智傑委員"},{"start":3803.868,"end":3830.097,"text":"王主席,大家好,我們請次長還有臺鐵請五次長還有多維董事長五言好五次長好那個10月16電價調整新制那聽說後面就是漲價的那個原則跟狀況"},{"start":3832.899,"end":3852.284,"text":"其實民眾還是有意見那我想請教一下就是漲價要怎麼漲那有沒有分比較平民化的跟比較弱勢的那要怎麼樣去處理我想我跟那個委員報告齁這個票價調漲我想"},{"start":3854.915,"end":3875.529,"text":"我們要必須考慮到整個運輸界的這樣一個整合、競合第二考慮到社會的經濟狀況還有對民眾影響的程度這幾個因素來進行考量那當然我們不希望說因為這樣的漲價帶頭對物價有所影響所以這個是目前台鐵我所知道台鐵目前正在"},{"start":3877.049,"end":3896.078,"text":"謹慎的做一個評估那目前他評估完之後會經過他董事會那再到報告部裡面來那比較細節的部分我是不是請董事長做一個簡單回應跟委員報告那個票價的合理化這一個我們其實上一次已經有送過董事會一次"},{"start":3896.678,"end":3923.12,"text":"但是董事會有退給這個經理單位因為裡面的資料還不夠齊備包括這些估算那另外還有就是委員剛剛有提到的就是對於社會以及弱勢的這個影響因為我們台鐵的輸運是短中長都有那我們上一次董事會呢退回來有一部分原因也是因為"},{"start":3925.641,"end":3937.708,"text":"規劃覺得沒有全面性所以我們現在還在努力來做一個調整那臺鐵的電價跟全世界各國比較的狀況董事來這邊有沒有概念"},{"start":3945.199,"end":3953.107,"text":"其實可能大家都一直認為說台鐵其實它是真的算是用電的大戶啦因為車子開了全部要電力"},{"start":3954.195,"end":3977.663,"text":"那我所知道他們做了很多節能的一個工作包括像新車、新校的引進那另外那個比如說在開設的時候要求那個事件能夠不要所謂的急死急停類似像這種情況那他以前年12年的4月到今年的3月這個期間來"},{"start":3979.844,"end":4006.275,"text":"跟今年的4月到9月來比大概節省了9.1%我想它有很大的一個成效當然這中間也包括跟臺電的節電的小組跟他請教應該怎麼去節電我想這部分臺鐵會更深入針對這個節電的部分來做市長跟董事長我是要提一個建議你可不可以參考就是說第一個就是你比如說全世界的票價"},{"start":4007.871,"end":4027.403,"text":"一樣是20公里那你們可以去做一個比較啊那看台鐵是不是有比日本有比韓國還貴還是比較便宜這個就是一個客觀的參考嘛那第二個就是說我今天就是像台電前一陣子調整電價的時候他叫做精準調漲"},{"start":4029.244,"end":4052.282,"text":"我是覺得那個概念還不錯就是說你今天比較平民化的比較用電少的他是調著他幾乎是不調或是調得很小那當然用電大戶啦或者是就是真的是賺錢的你比如說企業還有中小企業跟那個大企業啊中小企業就是調比較少啊大企業調比較多"},{"start":4053.962,"end":4068.353,"text":"這個是當然用電或因為有太多不同的方向那比如說我們的台鐵調漲你第一個比較全世界各國一樣的這個公里數大概做一個概念上的比較你就會發現台鐵是比較貴還是比較便宜"},{"start":4069.483,"end":4089.737,"text":"那你要去說服人民說我要調漲票價的理由你就有個客觀的標準你就比較好參考所以這個是一個數目字我是覺得你們應該去了解一下那第二個就是說我今天在平快車或者是對號或者是"},{"start":4090.891,"end":4113.953,"text":"自強舉光有什麼差別那我今天如果要做更好的可能調更多我今天如果要做最便宜的你就不要給我怎麼調或是調少一點類似這樣子的概念是不是在你們調整票價的時候可以去做思考不要讓人民其實我們先重視那個就是最弱勢的那一底層吧"},{"start":4114.67,"end":4126.79,"text":"那就是弱勢的底層如果他對他影響很大他就比較會受不了嘛那你如果比較坦白講比如說是富豪之類的那個你給他調整他也沒什麼多大的感覺啦"},{"start":4128.168,"end":4153.27,"text":"所以我是覺得就是說這兩個概念讓市長尤其是董事長思考一下要怎麼樣去調漲在現實的狀況跟世界各國做比較我勉強可以接受我們台鐵的調漲但是我調漲的時候有思考到弱勢要怎麼樣讓他不會影響太大我想這兩個概念是不是請台鐵可以思考一下好那另外就是說"},{"start":4155.922,"end":4175.175,"text":"剛李昆澤立委提到的那個安全系統的問題事實上我們也一直在強調台鐵的安全那我在之前也聊過也跟質詢過就是我們的那個員工的福利啦那就是說你今天員工的福利跟安全這個部分你要怎麼樣去搭配"},{"start":4176.642,"end":4184.89,"text":"你又要馬而肥又要馬而不吃草我知道那個東部吼上一次我們有一次說招募7個人結果只有一個人來報名結果錄取0人照理講"},{"start":4189.73,"end":4214.919,"text":"在內公務機關,國營、企業,大家是趨之若鶩,台鐵是找不到人當然有的人會比較高鐵幣,現在屬性高鐵比較賺錢所以我們在轉型的過程當中,怎麼樣去精準調整不要影響到太多的平民弱勢但是你可以在你的盈餘上,或者是你其實多腳踏經營"},{"start":4216.701,"end":4222.061,"text":"其實像有很多捷運在做那個商辦啊、都更啊當然不能像那個"},{"start":4223.496,"end":4243.141,"text":"客批那樣子都更啦那個392變840那個比較誇張但是你是合理的合理的都更其實這個都是好的所以我是覺得就是說臺鐵可以再做一下思考那對員工的福利可以調漲的我知道現在那個現場檢察員跟盜班導師盜班師傅他們都有那個甲級證照喔就一個月而已三萬塊你找得到嗎"},{"start":4250.385,"end":4258.084,"text":"這一定找不到人,因為你要求管,後禮拜他當然是,你譬如說比較特別的,你其實要去做"},{"start":4259.335,"end":4282.333,"text":"做那個比較精準的就是去看看他的工作量跟他的技術、證照跟他的薪水的搭配這個部分也應該去做一下思考所以這個部分請那個我們台鐵公司也另外再特別的要求一下那最後還有一樣就是封山車站的BOT現在那個董事長有預計了嗎?"},{"start":4285.494,"end":4299.204,"text":"我們還在努力中我們現在已經有開公告了依據11月底會結標我是建議董事長這件事希望你積極可以親自去"},{"start":4300.565,"end":4328.24,"text":"監督跟協助一下有有有因為其實當時的設計坦白講我們重視的是外部的改變那時候改變很漂亮我們也要求的很久啊終於有一個很大的改變所以蓋好之後坦白講我還覺得滿感謝台鐵也很用心也做這一部分也做得不錯啦但是我後來才知道內部的設計內部的設計真的還是不符一般的商場的使用"},{"start":4329.335,"end":4349.068,"text":"所以在內部的設計你們要做內部的怎麼樣的去改變或者是說讓人家覺得說一來會合啦商人來了結沒人會來啦所以當然這個就是說我知道這個有時候我們在POT很辛苦在圖利跟合理的利潤跟了結"},{"start":4351.37,"end":4372.513,"text":"這個中間要拿捏到什麼程度你才能夠找到好的BOT廠商來這邊做經營我希望說董事長這邊是不是可以親自的去把他監督要求不要說第二次再留標就很難看了是是我會來努力所以董事長第二次有沒有信心可以招標出去"},{"start":4373.173,"end":4400.204,"text":"因為現在我們第一個我們這一次招標我們招標的條件我們有做一些調整應該是吸引力會增加第二個我們也實際有去邀標訪商聽取他們的意見我想那個結果論那個第二次是11月底 對不對希望說董事長有信心能夠完成這件事這樣子沒問題吧"},{"start":4403.174,"end":4405.516,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員接下來邀請林國成委員發言"},{"start":4442.287,"end":4468.898,"text":"市長主席請吳政次請市長還有我們高鐵政總經理台鐵杜董事長還有我們國家國安會的運輸林主任委運安會林主委"},{"start":4479.107,"end":4505.601,"text":"好政事我想今天特別針對這些這個鐵道的一個安全的問題我必須要給幾位提醒一下人為的疏失比天災還可怕交通的安全會讓人民家破人亡"},{"start":4507.418,"end":4536.477,"text":"天災啊無法抵抗但是仍後是不可以原諒我想吳政志你同意我這種說法嗎同意好所以我們今天的主題就是很簡單就是我們鐵道的安全問題那現在鐵道裡面就只有兩個嘛一個台鐵一個高鐵嘛"},{"start":4537.557,"end":4562.412,"text":"那當然今天我們也不是來指責臺鐵杜董事長我在看也剛剛改過從國營改為公司的經營型態那當然其目的就是要讓臺鐵有偷胎放股、基於安全的這些理念"},{"start":4563.052,"end":4586.2,"text":"所以剛才我們立委同仁都已經講得很清楚改為公司不是改一改隨便讓你們亂搞不是是要讓不但要有公司的信義還要有一些比較活潑的這些建設跟不要因為是政府機關"},{"start":4587.748,"end":4598.139,"text":"跟公司化當然是有所差別所以在這個部分是鼓勵臺鐵公司要有一番作為"},{"start":4599.076,"end":4617.13,"text":"那所以在這裡我特別要給政事啊當然因為政事管政策但是政策不支持我想臺鐵公司就無法去做大刀叩壺保護人民安全的這些鐵道運輸"},{"start":4618.371,"end":4637.54,"text":"所以我特別就要來請教我也非常重視從頭開始進來立法院我就一直在講監視器監視系統這個問題因為我們大家都知道不管是高鐵也好不管是台鐵也好"},{"start":4638.905,"end":4661.201,"text":"我們都要穿山夜領的所以這個山坡的監視非常重要可是我調過資料發現到一個問題也就是說台鐵跟高鐵來做比較的話杜董事長我們說實在的台鐵真的要改進雖然"},{"start":4663.479,"end":4681.42,"text":"高鐵他現在經營的就只有350公里來鄭總經理你們現在設置的這些DMC的天然災害警告系統你們設置多少"},{"start":4684.102,"end":4701.851,"text":"跟委員報告我們有各種的這個天然災害告醒系統譬如說有這個下雨的、有風的、那有地震的我知道我知道這個都包括在內啦是你們啊你們這裡啊我給你資料啦不要看啦你們啊350公里裝有320個的監視器"},{"start":4710.629,"end":4738.493,"text":"但是在這裡我這個要必須要肯定你們啦因為你們的速度快你們從頭開始經營就以高速快速的鐵路在經營所以在這個當然比較嚴謹可是我們台鐵來那個杜董我們所經營的1065公里但是我們的監視器有多少來董事長"},{"start":4739.534,"end":4753.975,"text":"杜董目前我們就是邊坡告警的部分我們叫落實告警是26處對啦 太少了啦所以你看看喔他365公里他裝了320處"},{"start":4756.417,"end":4778.865,"text":"我們1165我們鑽了26處難怪到處土石流的時候到處有什麼災害的時候你們無法去確定所以我在這裡要鼓勵我們杜董我相信在這個部分就要我們吳政次來幫忙這一算多悲一點嘛"},{"start":4780.345,"end":4800.375,"text":"好不好我這政治這個可以不可以去做這個部分這個決定沒問題我想我跟委員報告一下剛提到的台鐵現在26處是已經完成了大概現在還有23處在規劃進行中預計在明年的6月可以完成所以總共會19處但是這剛提到這兩個其實320跟26處兩個基準不太一樣"},{"start":4804.377,"end":4805.418,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":4820.914,"end":4838.984,"text":"但是但是吳先生我們說實在的我今天請你上來主要還是在政策你要去支持是預算該編的還是要編啦一定我坦白講啦是台鐵一下子要當大人不要那麼簡單是因為歷史上有他的缺陷在"},{"start":4839.784,"end":4858.829,"text":"所以要馬上站起來當然這個部分真的還是要有政策去幫忙那當然杜董事長他想要做事那政策一定要幫他好 另外一個那個杜董事長我們平交道的死亡還是居高不上"},{"start":4861.12,"end":4876.426,"text":"這個問題出在哪邊來 平交道的改善前台灣省總共有260處請問現在我們花多少錢去改善那改善的成果是怎麼樣來 董事長"},{"start":4877.479,"end":4902.284,"text":"目前我們所有在我們本線上的平交道我們都已經完成了這個障礙物偵測跟告警那所以目前也正在執行中所以如果說平交道有這個異物輕物平交道的範圍的話他是會主動告警司機員讓司機員我知道啦那個董事長"},{"start":4903.044,"end":4915.563,"text":"那個吳政志我特別提供一個資料給你啦你很簡單改善改到9月18號到25號一個禮拜在斗六的地方還死兩個人那怎麼改善啊"},{"start":4916.485,"end":4939.967,"text":"所以吳正智 這是齁 這個部分是你來管轄所以我要拜託你 要去盯啊 是要去盯啊 不要只有給預算 那其他都沒有進展這樣的話 台鐵就永遠台鐵我還是拜託你 高鐵它的緊結制度的這些設置"},{"start":4941.688,"end":4952.538,"text":"臺鐵要多多學習要多多學習好那最後一個我特別要請教一下極端氣候你們現在如何面對來那個杜董事長"},{"start":4954,"end":4981.771,"text":"極端氣候就像我們花蓮那邊花蓮那個地方欸動不動就山崩動不動就土磁流這個怎麼防止是針對極端氣候其實我們有做一個全面性的一個調查跟研究那包括邊坡包括這個溪流我們在這個我都知道啦你如何去防範啦這個我都知道所以有什麼新作法啦"},{"start":4982.311,"end":5006.06,"text":"對,所以針對這個極端氣候,包括我們在我們軌道位置的範圍內我們要增設阻隔,或者是我們要改善這個橋樑,或者是我們要再加強我們的這個道景杜董事長,華仁的人德站阿,他已經重復再重復,你們改進又不改進,一直沒有辦法"},{"start":5007.44,"end":5024.589,"text":"還有那個我們道安會我們林主委特別要去監督一下我相信你們有很多給他們建議如果真的他們都不改善你要跟吳政志講一下啊要大家去監督啊好不好好最後一個我們台鐵的漲價"},{"start":5027.711,"end":5045.485,"text":"其實沒有品質你漲一塊錢老百姓都不服氣所以我還要建議你們董事會要有公司經營之理念一定要有品質才有價錢所以你不要動不動啊就是說啊我虧損所以我要漲價"},{"start":5047.486,"end":5076.399,"text":"但是問題你沒有品質沒有安全你漲一塊錢我也不服氣啊不是嗎我坐你的車搞不好生命會不保欸所以這個杜董事長我希望你們好好的去討論一下最後我還在問一個問題我們新型的R20名的新車為什麼6月份剛交車10月份就出包來杜董"},{"start":5077.793,"end":5103.042,"text":"這一輛R206其實還沒有交他是在試車的這個情形之下他有一些故障那這個部分我們會責成我們的那個製造商好 針對這個問題因為時間的關係拜託你的那個說明疑問報告給我們交通委員會包括我在內好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5115.879,"end":5118.721,"text":"謝謝,我們請陳書瑞召委謝謝主席,請主席邀請伍次長還有臺鐵公司杜威董事長還有鐵道局楊局長委員好"},{"start":5138.664,"end":5165.402,"text":"市長早安本席在這邊先來關心一下就是我們地方的鄉親期待很久的彰化鐵路高架化的進度我們知道彰化鐵路的高架在地方鄉親因期盼之下在2013年完成了初步的可行性的評估可是這樣一晃眼過了10年了現在已經2024年了"},{"start":5168.825,"end":5168.985,"text":"事由該務委員報告"},{"start":5184.403,"end":5204.323,"text":"我想鐵路高架過去確實它有一段時間有點因素就是基地的關係有點耽擱到原來的可行性是放在花壇但是後來中央縣政府他希望能夠放到大都但是對整個運轉是不利的所以後來再協調後來經過協調以後我們縮小花壇的一個基地的"},{"start":5208.887,"end":5213.391,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份"},{"start":5235.774,"end":5261.451,"text":"是,那就是說有關這個基檢段的選址就是已經確定了嗎?對,這已經確定了所以就是說這樣子有一個明確的進度那對這個軌道就是到底是三軌還是四軌這個部分呢?是不是也可以請次長說明一下?現在是這樣子,我想這個三軌四軌部分往後續再做一個更比較詳細的研修因為如果三軌道當然對用地影響比較少但是對調度還是會有一些些的影響我想我們會兩個去做一個權衡"},{"start":5265.674,"end":5266.496,"text":"所以到現在還沒有很確定"},{"start":5272.945,"end":5296.084,"text":"現在大概可能會用原則會比較朝向山軌比較朝向山軌來做啦我們希望是到底是山軌還是軌道現在還沒有確定的話這兩個剛講原來就是山軌跟市軌這兩個一直大概對因為會增加這個用地的取得啦那目前大概方向性會比較朝向山軌來走我想這部分我們後續會加速來做啦"},{"start":5298.74,"end":5323.89,"text":"是,那我們知道就是彰化縣彰化市可以說是一個古城就是在台灣的開發歷史上其實是開發很早所以彰化火車站所在的位置事實上是在一個比較繁華的這個市區這個舊城區所以整個彰化市人口密集所以它要在發展的空間事實上是有限的所以我們也是期待說"},{"start":5324.77,"end":5339.267,"text":"在我們彰化市鐵路高架的這個工程在進行的過程當中我們可以透過這個工程的一個設計讓我們彰化市也可以趁著這次的一個工程彰化市鐵路高架能夠有所"},{"start":5339.747,"end":5344.549,"text":"臺鐵在進行許多車站的更新的時候有這個新北市板橋車站的這個四鐵共購或者是新竹大車站計畫包括嘉義的大車站計畫還有這個高雄的奉承車站這個複合式的一個"},{"start":5363.637,"end":5366.341,"text":"張嬅火車站目前朝向大車站複合式功能目標"},{"start":5376.84,"end":5401.693,"text":"我想車站高架之後他原來的基地遷到花壇跟二水那一大片的土地空下來我想台鐵一定可以配合完全來配合這個彰化縣政府的他的整個車站大計畫部分去做當然他權宜必須要確保我想這個部分應該沒什麼問題我不曉得那個杜董有沒有比較好那請杜董事長補充一下"},{"start":5404.161,"end":5427.177,"text":"就是後續那個彰化這個完成高架立體化以後的後續的這個開發規劃我想台鐵公司會充分來配合那當然我們站在公司的立場我們也希望公司能夠有最大的收益是就是杜董事長說充分配合所以主導權是在地方政府是嗎應該是共同來演繹"},{"start":5431.684,"end":5449.251,"text":"共同研議那就這部分目前有跟地方政府有這樣子的一個交流嗎就是目前還沒有還沒有就是針對剛剛講的說我們完成了立體化以後我們承諾出來的我們這個空間目前是還沒有"},{"start":5449.938,"end":5466.426,"text":"是那就是說在立體化之後才來討論的話會不會就是比較晚了不會在立體化之後再來討論應該是同時吧就是說這個階段應該就是要同時就這個功能的需求去做相關的一個規劃規劃面的話會同時進行"},{"start":5470.094,"end":5496.362,"text":"好就是我們就是希望因為在整個彰化市如果你們有去過應該知道就是說在附近事實上真的就是比較熱鬧的一個街道區所以整個彰化市要在就是有多的空間來發展真的是比較困難所以我們也是期待說這個彰化鐵路高架的時候能夠就目前的這個彰化火車站區包括就是扇形車庫還有這個"},{"start":5497.602,"end":5500.282,"text":"在地方很多鄉親有反應臺鐵的購票APP的購票很不友善因為他們自己操作APP購票的時候會要他們"},{"start":5524.947,"end":5539.143,"text":"持續的接著下一個操作的一個程序可是很多的長輩他們不會操作到最後呢就是有錄音檔要求他們要輸入相關的這個英文字馬結果他們也聽不懂英文"},{"start":5539.864,"end":5553.7,"text":"所以最後就是在這個購票的程序就會失敗然後就會尋求我們這個火車站的這個同仁來協助所以我覺得說針對這樣子的一個設計希望我們公司這邊要去做一個檢討"},{"start":5554.941,"end":5574.228,"text":"因為讓我們鄉親在購票上能夠比較友善之外也可以減輕我們第一線的我們台鐵同仁的一個工作負擔不然他們面對第一線鄉親的這個就是協助或者是說抱怨我想會增加他們的一些工作壓力是不是杜董事長可以"},{"start":5574.688,"end":5593.186,"text":"是跟委員報告有關於我們這個訂票我們的驗證主要是要防機器人或其他的程式攻擊那的確對於長輩來講的話他如果不太善於操作的話他就必須要去用這個語音的方式來操作"},{"start":5593.746,"end":5617.074,"text":"那我們現在已經有在進行研究了我們怎麼樣在我們的網頁上定票的網頁上能夠再優化一下這個跟委員報告我們大概完成研究規劃以後我們應該在很快我們會發包來做改善那大概在明年第二季我們應該就可以上來"},{"start":5617.828,"end":5644.341,"text":"OK好謝謝杜董事長那我們今天委員會當然就是針對這個就是交就是有關鐵道安全的一個專題報告那當然我們這個硬體方面的安全很重要那個治安的安全也非常的重要那我們先就就是說目前有傳出說高鐵會員的點數遭到就是被盜用這個部分也顯露出我們的這個治安防護有出現的問題這部分是不是可以請"},{"start":5645.061,"end":5648.944,"text":"我們楊局長可以講一下還是我們鄭總經理要講委員好謝謝委員關心我們這個會員的這個點數在被倒了這個問題那事實上這個問題是主要是我們公司在主動發現我們的系統上那麼的這個"},{"start":5670.038,"end":5688.633,"text":"委員的點數有被轉讓到一些人頭帳戶去兌換禮券這部分的話我們已經跟警方來告發主要是因為我們發現系統上有一種所謂的壯庫供給的部分就是說有一些旅客"},{"start":5689.614,"end":5719.077,"text":"有把他的帳號跟他的密碼那有一群人就用著在不同的系統包括高鐵公司包括PC Home那麼去找然後去尋求去找一些人頭然後來去用這個東西那這一部分的話我就覺得這一部分我們現在針對這個問題我們採取的方式就是說我們第一個我們在會跟會員主要你的這個會員資料裡面有這個登錄那麼我們就會用主動的email來告訴你"},{"start":5719.997,"end":5748.636,"text":"然後當然你就會知道這個我是不是被盜用了那同時我們要防範的話我們還做了另外一個工作很重要就是說我們在年底前用雙重驗證除了說跟旅客確認這個是你的號碼你的帳密密碼以外我們會再用one time password然後來確認這個還是你的那這樣的話我們能夠把這個會員被盜的這個部分完全解除"},{"start":5749.116,"end":5765.106,"text":"但是我要跟各位報告就是說跟委員報告就是說這在系統上並沒有外洩的這個問題好 謝謝委員那就是說有發生這樣子的一個會員點數被盜了那當然就是有顯露出我們治安"},{"start":5765.566,"end":5765.766,"text":"好,謝謝莊委"},{"start":5813.407,"end":5835.954,"text":"好,接下來邀請林俊憲委員質詢。好,本席邀請我們交通部五次長、鐵道局楊局長﹖請楊局長﹖還有我們台鐵的杜董事長﹖請杜薇董事長﹖還有我們高鐵的鄭總經理﹖請鄭總經理"},{"start":5840.819,"end":5856.25,"text":"委員好 次長好 次長我們今天來關心鐵道的安全台灣大概一個最危險的就是平交道我先請教杜局長我們台鐵為了改善鐵道的安全在2021年"},{"start":5862.634,"end":5888.047,"text":"我們3月決標了一個1424個平交道的遮斷機是 對不對號稱是智慧型的平交道遮斷機最先進的1424個嘛照理講應該要完成了嘛跟委員報告現在聽說完成驗收的只有3成沒有沒有報告委員現在是怎樣這個案子我們的合約的規定是在明年的7月"},{"start":5889.691,"end":5903.07,"text":"現在正在加緊的建置中那目前已經有做的聽說可以通過驗收的只有30%目前已經裝上去裝上去就是在使用的接近400具你有通過驗收嗎"},{"start":5904.849,"end":5919.16,"text":"沒有,這個,這不是驗收這個是裝上去他就再使用了對,可以用可以用嗎?你不驗收你怎麼知道可不可以用?不是驗收是我們有去驗證他的功能都確保了才能有達到安全嗎?有"},{"start":5920.241,"end":5943.388,"text":"那這1424個裝上去希望可以改善我們平交道的一個建築安全是 對不對因為這是臺鐵第一次啊臺鐵自己寫規格全機國產化的對要全面更新鐵道這段機對這是國產化的這是國產化另外我想請教那臺南的鐵路地下化聽說要再延期"},{"start":5945.865,"end":5952.092,"text":"臺南鐵路地下化工程會延宕主要是因為挖出了所謂的那個遺跡"},{"start":5953.956,"end":5981.042,"text":"就是有一些地下的歷史文物是不是這樣又挖出了古蹟對跟我們報告確實這個臺南鐵路地下化受了影響其中一大部分是所謂的移植的關係就是文質的關係那現在已經處理差不多現在我們的後年就是在115年我們確定一定可以來通車這我想我們會掌握沒有問題臺南鐵路地下化工程車廠應該也很熟是"},{"start":5983.303,"end":6007.583,"text":"那因為挖出了大概20幾個遺址,遺跡啦,古跡啦,對不對?對那台南今年建成400年啦,因為地下隨便挖都會有古跡啦那遇到了我們就是解決嘛,只是希望這個速度效率上那現在因為挖出了古跡而停工多久啊?工期停工"},{"start":6009.176,"end":6035.319,"text":"跟委員報告我們整個沿線總共挖出來20處每一個地方受影響的程度不同最長的是到26個月26個月兩年停工兩年那現在全部復工了嗎?都可以復工了嗎?我們在8月底已經全數處理完畢最主要是東門路橋這個前後兩側那這個地方已經處理完畢然後現在全數的在進行工程的開發當中"},{"start":6036.44,"end":6056.041,"text":"也就是說挖出20處的遺址、古蹟等等,現在到8月處理完畢,現在復工了嗎?全面復工了,對不對?是的那因為你這樣子停工,應該有的停兩年,那也造成工程經費啊,因為計畫要修正啦,工程經費會大增啊我聽說你們現在預估經費會增加76億多,這部分有確定嗎?"},{"start":6059.364,"end":6079.574,"text":"是的,我們已經報山修計畫到行政院在今年7月的時候現在正在根據國安會意見修正當中經費有問題嗎?目前看起來應該經費並沒有重大問題所以會總經費由336億,臺南市的鐵路地下化市區的鐵路地下化工程由336億可能會增加到413億是的,413億"},{"start":6083.683,"end":6083.863,"text":"全線要到119"},{"start":6112.614,"end":6113.975,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":6127.493,"end":6145.173,"text":"希望能夠儘速、儘速能夠現在已經全線復工了希望能夠儘速完成這個臺南鐵路地交化對臺南的市區的整體發展以及交通安全這個是非常重要的但除了這個以外我們後面還有永康的鐵路地交化的延伸是不是這樣"},{"start":6146.634,"end":6150.216,"text":"另外還有一個就是新式的鐵路高架化這個部分目前呢"},{"start":6166.473,"end":6181.085,"text":"這個現在還在臺南市政府還沒有報到交通部這邊來那這個經費在交通部也已經同意了同意要執行這個計畫嘛臺南市政府送上來沒有還沒有我們希望臺南市政府也盡快把這個計畫修正確定後能夠送上來"},{"start":6181.886,"end":6201.332,"text":"所以你如果鐵路地下化從台南市區然後到永康再繼續延伸整個永康全線也鐵路地下化然後到新市它就開始高價了讓你市區永康和新市都不會再有鐵路平交道了也不會再有什麼路橋或地下寒凍等等"},{"start":6202.732,"end":6225.904,"text":"對於交通的改善,尤其是南科,你知道南科就在永康路的地方,就在新市,這也會有很大的改善。另外就是仁德,仁德的立體鐵路高架,這個地方也爭取多年,市政府應該也在做可能性評估,就是仁德的鐵路高架,還有上化車站的改建,"},{"start":6227.072,"end":6252.424,"text":"至於上化未來的鐵路就是說所謂的鐵路整體高架這可能是另外一個計畫但是說上化火車站因為現在前後站沒有路可以通了大家知道這南科全世界最重要的半導體生產基地上化火車站前後站沒有路了只能走地下道這個地方趕快改建好不好因為時間的關係請教一下高鐵的政總經理"},{"start":6255.802,"end":6260.823,"text":"委員好總經理大家知道臺南這幾年快速發展"},{"start":6262.028,"end":6289.965,"text":"尤其臺南除了南科以外現在包括沙崙科學園區幾乎很多我們國家重要的研究單位都進駐在這個地方那明天總統也會到沙崙去主持中研院南部分院的正式開幕現在AI生態園區也在陽明交大什麼綠能研究單位幾乎國家最重要的"},{"start":6290.965,"end":6316.744,"text":"單位都進入在這裡那本期我們也爭取到了蘇華埠蘇華埠的治安院蘇華埠的社會產業發展署也會設在沙崙所以現在全台灣的車站高鐵站成長率最高的就台南站近站成長率全國第二只輸給南港但初站就是目的地是台南站的成長率也是全國最高"},{"start":6318.959,"end":6344.442,"text":"總經理知道這個數字吧?確實是有很大幅的成長很多人都到台南去了那你台南站的進出現在原來的設計我相信已經遠遠超乎你當時設計的這個站體了所以現在每次那個旅客到站進出都要排隊排很長因為你所有的上下月台只有一個小小的守護地"},{"start":6345.936,"end":6363.175,"text":"我不知道高鐵未來有沒有提早因應的一個規劃你像台中高鐵站有4個守護梯上下台南高鐵站只有小小一個可能當時你當年高鐵通車的時候也沒有把台南站當作什麼重點你知道吧"},{"start":6365.805,"end":6389.256,"text":"當年台南高鐵站設在什麼地方各位知道吧沙崙沙崙旁邊就是台南監獄啊什麼地方會設監獄就那個屏蔽道不能再屏蔽的地方才會設監獄高鐵站就設在旁邊啊但是也因為這樣啊讓現在台南站有高鐵有一個很大的發展腹地就是附近的土地非常非常大造成現在反而當時的"},{"start":6392.199,"end":6404.415,"text":"很偏僻的一個設置的取點得到地點現在反而造成後來有一個發展的大空間但現在競速站人口這麼多啦請問臺南高鐵站未來高鐵公司有沒有什麼樣的因應計畫"},{"start":6405.507,"end":6432.06,"text":"委員報告確實我們人成長很多那事實上我們也因為這樣的需要我們在班次方面所以一直在增加尤其是這個所謂台南的直達車這部分我們就做了很多的增班對那至於手扶梯這個部分的話以目前來講確實在尖峰時代是比較擁擠不過目前看來還是可以用但是如果委員有這樣的一個建議的話我想我們"},{"start":6433.42,"end":6435.061,"text":"我們接下來邀請魯明哲召委諮詢"},{"start":6472.352,"end":6472.372,"text":"趙偉豪"},{"start":6491.329,"end":6509.744,"text":"這個其實因為正好這個上一屆立委的時候到這一屆有全程經歷到我們台鐵整個公司化的過程那我感覺就是公司化過程除了改變財政營運當時為主要的一個目標其實大家都說"},{"start":6510.985,"end":6531.779,"text":"要成立公司當時的小英總統說成立台鐵公司來改善行車安全那杜董事長也宣誓嘛安全安全安全安全那安全是不是公司化帶的你帶走了很多東西業務你帶走了有些留在交通部那到底的現在情況是怎麼樣首先來看看我們台鐵這個大體檢大體檢體檢都會做完嗎你們體檢做完沒有"},{"start":6538.291,"end":6561.321,"text":"你們大體檢做完沒有因為這是從普悠瑪事件2018年10月份成立的政府宣誓的大體檢那體檢現在做完沒有因為你宣布還沒做完嘛現在還有安全改革17項沒有做完組織改革、營運改革總共兩項現在只有19項還沒有解除列管那可是在這個大體檢"},{"start":6564.669,"end":6582.459,"text":"2018年成立那時候是很感人的第一次院級的院級的政務政委來帶領跨部會然後成立這個85天之後就變成小體檢中體檢中體檢就丟給你們台鐵那時候台鐵還在交通部"},{"start":6583.679,"end":6607.03,"text":"現在今年1月1號你們就帶著走了由台鐵公司自己自己自己去成立那我是覺得你們現在還沒有解除列管因為很多是安全改革的這個部分董事長你說一下那個急迫性怎麼樣是跟委員報告其實不是這個是還沒有獲得交通部這個解除列管不是說沒有做"},{"start":6607.89,"end":6623.744,"text":"那我們現在所有144項總體檢的一個改善事項我們都有在推動那其中就有三項是屬於中長程的我們還在持續努力其他的我們都已經提報給交通部了"},{"start":6624.344,"end":6650.285,"text":"那這個其中就是這邊講的19項部裡面認為我們提供的這個資料或者是事證還不完全所以現在還在補充剛好好 次長因為要解除列管還是要送到我們交通部嘛對那交通部我覺得這個軌道的部分你是專家啦那這個還沒有解除列管的話就簡單你送的文件或者你改善措施沒有受到你們完整的認可嘛所以還沒有解除列管"},{"start":6650.945,"end":6677.554,"text":"那我想請教一下這個因為過去您是局長嘛 鐵道局局長現在接次長齁那你覺得對於解 144項解除列管120幾項喔也是不錯嘛解除列管是不是真的解決啦解除列管是不是解決問題啦就請教一下你覺得呢當然不是說做完以後解除就沒有問題齁後續所以在鐵道局在監理方面部分他一直"},{"start":6678.815,"end":6699.395,"text":"針對這些解除的過去曾經被列管的案件還做一些檢查重複的再去看一下有沒有再辦我想不是說我們解除以後就不再管了這些是因為我們認為他做了講得不夠清楚或做了沒有一個完整的具體的作為出來所以我們不同意他解除列管"},{"start":6699.855,"end":6715.975,"text":"所以我是覺得很多民眾也認為啦體檢總是要有一個期間2018年到現在整整10月20、20幾號就快6年滿6年了你的體檢還沒做完我也覺得真的交通部要好好下來督導一下"},{"start":6716.776,"end":6735.695,"text":"提點做好了比如說剛剛好多委員講過的這個安全管理系統你們導入嘛你們也報告好幾次那導入半天那今年我們這個應該去年年底嘛然後去請教請教有媒體去請教你們的員工啦抽冊啦"},{"start":6737.096,"end":6757.648,"text":"有蠻多對於什麼是SMS都搞不太清楚我覺得以前在企業搞ISO9000每一個員工都很重要不是他能夠在這個系統上面12大指標他能做什麼而是他必須知道他不要去犯錯那個他可能"},{"start":6758.869,"end":6760.07,"text":"明日號事件是真的還假的?"},{"start":6776.911,"end":6802.165,"text":"報告委員是真的是真的這個是跟委員報告這個是因為我們我們這個負責編組的我們的車號的同仁他電報看錯所以他在掛車廂的時候他漏掛了一截好這個林主委運安會林主委這個聽起來這個感覺小事不小心看錯報告了"},{"start":6803.496,"end":6828.484,"text":"你知道嗎 有點感覺 唉呦 看錯報告了 原來要飛747啊 我怎麼開了737來了 客人不夠在我覺得這個是一個 你覺得這是大事還是小事啊 林主委你是運安會嘛 你覺得這一件事情也與對於運輸安全實質的影響並沒有 沒有看到 可是員工的態度 或者員工訓練上面 你看出什麼問題來"},{"start":6830.267,"end":6831.047,"text":"市長,這個火車開出去了,不小心少掛一截"},{"start":6854.403,"end":6882.736,"text":"然後呢五星級的明日號一萬多才可以旅遊一趟真的五星級啊但是我們的表現啊是零星級的低級的錯誤真的很低級的錯誤那個杜董事長請問一下掃掛是哪一節是乘客艙還是沙發沒帶出去客廳艙還是還是那個吧台乘客艙客艙嘛所以說客人"},{"start":6884.073,"end":6896.025,"text":"沒有座位坐那等於說他們站著跑了幾站是吧到南港才把家掛出去對後來後來我們有做補救措施啦在南港把這個車廂再把他掛上然後才啟程"},{"start":6897.662,"end":6922.182,"text":"因為我覺得這個真的是很離譜啊我跟你講聽起來好笑然後但是覺得真的很低級的錯誤但是這種錯誤坦白講你知道嗎我牽了一隻牛出去吃草回家的時候我只是忘了帶牛回來那我覺得很低級啊發生什麼事情這麼大的一件事情居然會有這樣的一個情況那就請教一下這我看到兩大問題啦"},{"start":6923.942,"end":6930.271,"text":"第一大問題是到底多少人會參與這個每一天點車廂、掛車廂、數車廂這樣的工作第一個員工本身看單子"},{"start":6936.775,"end":6963.313,"text":"第二個檢察人司機員這是你們工會說的司機員我要開我普悠瑪我不要開到貨車啊要看一下到底到位沒有對不對第三個是列車長啊對不對列車長、司機員這麼多人第一個都失靈還有一些你SMS或者其他的導入、書面、黑板要寫一定要給別人看確認"},{"start":6965.154,"end":6983.892,"text":"到底發生什麼事你們原本設計這麼多的一個檢查措施結果列車長也沒搞沒有double check然後司機員也就這樣開走了所以我覺得這是一件很危險的一件事你現有的檢查制度出事了市長你覺得你說幹對"},{"start":6985.649,"end":7011.227,"text":"我今天很抱歉我真的很抱歉你剛聽說啊對我今天才知道這個事情那這個我想我確實剛聽起來感覺是不可思議啦那這個部分我想我們會再請那個台鐵針對剛講他整個的標準作業程序再來檢視看到底是哪一個環境錯了或是要再增加double check的一個功能"},{"start":7011.906,"end":7026.047,"text":"我跟你講現在第二個問題你剛剛講就是神經末梢不是末梢這也不是末梢了就整個鈍掉了你知道嗎昨天媒體在跟你講前天的事台鐵第一時間回覆"},{"start":7027.611,"end":7044.884,"text":"有沒有這件事我來查證我聽了這是第二個恐怖的事情就是說你double check現場檢查的機制居然沒有辦法這個事情確實做好第二個呢出問題了不管大事小事你居然沒有積極的回報的一個制度"},{"start":7045.885,"end":7046.385,"text":"跟委員報告 我知道"},{"start":7073.692,"end":7085.376,"text":"而且當下我們查證跟委員報告剛剛委員講的這一個疏失不是列車長或者是司機員我剛剛跟委員報告是我們的車號還有我們的這個吊車場的主管要負責"},{"start":7090.526,"end":7107.914,"text":"好那其他人都不用沒有人double check就掛錯就錯了你們未來機制會不會改變啊這個玩笑不要開啦是是是跟委員報告齁這個的確齁我們的double check跟整個機制齁我們會充分的檢討以後不發生這種事"},{"start":7109.954,"end":7136.013,"text":"這個因為我是覺得真的非常非常離譜而且那種五星級的明日日號結果明日日號真的是明天明天再來今天沒有今天車忘記掛了這個東西我是覺得真的是不行而且你們反應的機制像這種不光是這個事件的問題新聞性蠻大的交通部不知道我覺得你們距離公司化之後距離交通部真的是越來越遠這個最後"},{"start":7139.993,"end":7160.751,"text":"臺鐵的一個事故的一個比例大家期待的一個安全我們看到那個數字跟去年同期1到7月的比較總事故可能是有些是小的事故成長40%行車的異常成長也有40%重大事故從去年同期的0變成4你有什麼說法"},{"start":7162.852,"end":7182.081,"text":"各位報告這一個我們1到7月的包括事故還有這個異常的事件的數量的確有增加但是這有三個主要原因第一個就是今年的天災比較嚴重第二個就是我們車廂老舊我們的努力還不夠"},{"start":7183.061,"end":7211.56,"text":"那第三個就是我們現在在推安全文化所以我們今年開始公司我們對於事故事件我們想列的這個項目有別於以往我們用重研的這個角度來列這個事故事件所以有多列好我最後再說不光是交通部我看全民包括所有委員都在關心公司化之後到底做了什麼改變我們希望你們要自力自強謝謝"},{"start":7213.521,"end":7213.942,"text":"黃建豪委員"},{"start":7234.192,"end":7242.803,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請五次長跟我們高鐵公司政總經理請五次長還有政總經理委員好來 次長好"},{"start":7250.902,"end":7273.831,"text":"市長跟總經理我們首先要先提到上週這個高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題我想這真的是一個非常誇張的一個事件我想問一下這個總經理過去高鐵有沒有輸運過這麼多人潮的經驗我們有這麼多的人潮的經驗但是在瞬間裡面呢一下子湧進三四千人這是第一次"},{"start":7275.066,"end":7302.169,"text":"我跟總經理說明我覺得這個事情是這樣因為我看了新聞看這個圖片的時間是9點04分但你們事後新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮那8點45分新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制那晚上9點50分也就是一小時後就解除了相關管制這個人潮進入綠燈就表示說這個人潮的速度"},{"start":7303.03,"end":7311.818,"text":"當你們啟動管制你們表定是8點45到9點一小時後他就能夠解除表示他的人氣沒有多到這麼誇張嘛是一開始的管制有問題吧"},{"start":7313.032,"end":7335.477,"text":"跟委員報告那最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面呢這麼多人都沒有進來因為我們在8點31分以後啊那麼到這個到一到9點12分才有車子所以這時候人潮就一直在進來那事實上我們在這次的這個煙火啊在散了以後啊煙火以後其實客人在8點20啊就"},{"start":7337.337,"end":7339.018,"text":"換句話說旅客就不需要一個一個驗票就讓旅客可以進去一直走"},{"start":7365.229,"end":7383.135,"text":"總經理這個是一次的教訓我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動當然因為這次是雲林可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多我們看後續我們看之前去年網友有看到就是台中站我想台中每一次的週末每一次的連假像去年的這個是中秋連假"},{"start":7384.235,"end":7405.497,"text":"他排隊排到一路排到停車場他就啟動人潮管制啊他很早就啟動了因為他就是預期會有這麼多人嘛那像國慶業火也知道嘛國慶業火號稱會有30萬40幾萬人到現場所以高鐵公司理論上你也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方所以我們希望經過這一次教訓未來啊我也拜託我們次長要督導一下就是"},{"start":7405.757,"end":7406.938,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":7425.703,"end":7442.072,"text":"是,我想這一次最主要是因為雲林的這個站區裡那個我們的車站裡面的空間太小了那我們啟動聯潮管制以後我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面然後在川塘省護衛區裡面大概有500個人"},{"start":7442.972,"end":7460.292,"text":"那剩下的這個人的話就整在我們的閘門以外了那大概有700個人換句話說我們的站體裡面車站裡面大概整有2000人所以到時候有3000多人到的時候我們就把這1000多人放在我們的這個站外但是站外那邊的話因為後面的人就一直進來"},{"start":7461.093,"end":7478.171,"text":"還好我們那時候就這個鐵警啊協助我們不要讓他進去所以站位也要管制啦因為我看警察也很辛苦嘛但是警察的這個機制也是比較晚啟動啦都是已經人潮已經擠到不行他們才進來管制所以還是希望說高鐵公司你們這個算是獲利很好不能只顧賺錢啊"},{"start":7479.272,"end":7497.74,"text":"因為大家都希望說要離開當然坐高鐵最方便嘛但是你就像雲林這一次我們辦所謂的國慶國慶煙火為什麼會辦在高鐵這個特定計畫局也是看上說這樣子輸入比較快大眾運輸在那邊輸入比較快所以我希望說這高鐵公司第一個你們是這個官方的第二個你有社會企業責任嘛"},{"start":7498.18,"end":7503.722,"text":"未來你們在各戰區尤其在面臨到大型廉價大型活動的時候是不是這個機制要有一個檢討報告出來?你們這次有做檢討報告嗎?"},{"start":7522.21,"end":7545.808,"text":"我想這個委員謝謝你指導那事實上我要跟您報告就是說我們在這短短時間裡面我們開了12班12個加班12個這個車子那載運的大概有1萬人少所以呢這個整個機制是有的那只是說在短時間裡面人進來那所以我們就必須要把這個人放在這個站如果放到裡面以後怎麼辦以後會再次發生這類似的事情"},{"start":7547.128,"end":7567.098,"text":"我認同你們的確開了加班車把漁業台上的人運走這沒問題但我的問題是那以後於瞬間有這麼多人潮的時候各站有沒有一個作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣什麼時候來啟動什麼時候請警察來協助什麼時候啟動這相關管制你們有相關的檢討嗎還是過了就算了以後再看情況"},{"start":7567.538,"end":7593.505,"text":"事實上我們當然會有檢討那事實上我們在這次裡面呢我們都有很完整的SOP譬如說我們支援的人力呢大概有100人以上那我們在各個地方在做這個部分有些已經買票了那就是安排他進來沒有買票了我們安排他進來那是後來的事情一開始就沒有嘛一開始就是有買票的、自由坐的、有票的全部都擠在門外有的人進得來有的人進不來我現在問的問題是說以後"},{"start":7595.795,"end":7620.516,"text":"類似這樣的問題,你們的機制有檢討報告嗎?還是看著辦?不是看著辦,我們事實上,我們就原有的這個這個機制啊,我們再強化它,來補強它我們希望說能夠,因為再更及時,跟這個鐵井的這邊的這個配合啊,我們會更及時好啦,總經理謝謝,總經理先請回座喔,市長這未來齁,真的不能再發生類似的這個事情啦,因為這次我想這是好月子"},{"start":7621.156,"end":7643.849,"text":"我是跟委員報告一下齁剛剛提到的這個其實我們要求高鐵公司要做檢討包括剛剛提到的站外的部分的動線我想這非常重要第二個剛剛也提到一個重點他9點12分才有8點多大概有人就散場跑去了所以這個駕開班車的那個時間點尤其可以再早一點假設啦我今天講我們回過頭來這個案子來講假設我8點50駕開一班車"},{"start":7649.252,"end":7649.372,"text":"臺鐵杜董上來"},{"start":7685.831,"end":7706.334,"text":"委員好董事長剛好今天討論的是我們鐵道安全那剛好上禮拜一個新的判決普悠瑪事故臺鐵跟司機各負50%的這個責任嘛但是我們看到議審的判決裡面當然是最新的判決說各負50%現在認定說司機有相關責任但是在議審的時候看到這個議審裡面提到說"},{"start":7708.716,"end":7735.211,"text":"這個駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢察員聯絡那發現通訊設備品質不良、人員裝不足那臺鐵內部的橫向聯繫直接指揮系統混亂臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈這是一審判決書提的那他二審裡面後面也覺得說駕駛員、駕駛員責任但是我們要先問的我們只能針對結構性問題討論嘛一審提到的這部分指揮系統混亂、橫向聯繫失靈這部分臺鐵公司也檢討了嘛"},{"start":7735.871,"end":7761.938,"text":"有,各位委員報告,這個事故發生以後我們有檢討,然後有做改進檢討的結論是什麼?就很多項啦,包括我們對於這個車上我們這個ATP的一個監視還有就是互相聯絡的方式還有就是我們車子,我們主風棒那個主音,主風棒的一個改善這個我們都有做這個檢討改善"},{"start":7763.979,"end":7771.244,"text":"我們這樣講當然不希望再發生事故那只是未來所以我們以後未來台鐵的駕駛他不用去負擔這個風險了是不是就是說他當然"},{"start":7773.761,"end":7797.252,"text":"這一次這個普悠瑪事故當時發生的時候是因為駕駛員他根本找不到他到底怎麼辦沒有人跟他講他怎麼辦他當然去做了一些動作所以導致他現在要負50%的責任我跟你說今天台鐵的駕駛員他未來是要承擔還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險還是你可以保證說未來我們台鐵駕駛員在開車的時候他去尋求管制去尋求資源的時候你們的橫向零星是沒問題的"},{"start":7798.472,"end":7826.438,"text":"各位也知道這有兩部分我們一般來講執行我們這個列車乘務駕駛的他有他的規章制度這個他一定要遵守不像這一次我們普悠瑪似乎很不幸我們司機員沒有遵守他的沒有遵照他的規章制度他沒遵守現在法院判他50%另外50%公司的責任嘛對對對公司的責任就是第二部分第二部分的話現在我們進行的改善我們都應該算是已經都完成到位了"},{"start":7826.738,"end":7841.641,"text":"所以你可以保證說以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救的時候、要求助的時候不會再發生上這次的事情嗎?現在我們行控處都有新的SOP可以給他充分的資源因為為什麼要提到這個提到就要講到下面這一張啦"},{"start":7843.85,"end":7859.389,"text":"這個董事長這個一上來之後當然你們台鐵的管理層這個調薪成功但基層待遇沒有特別的這個影響沒有改變啦低薪改善要再等等啦所以我想這個為什麼因為我覺得這對基層員工來講是一個很大的這個影響"},{"start":7860.31,"end":7876.958,"text":"當然你們說這是為對標所謂國營事業其他國營事業但是我們看到其他都是一樣都是國營事業起薪來講這個台鐵相對來講他的起薪就是比較低那他又要負擔這麼他如果又要負擔這麼大的風險那我們也看到這兩天的新聞而已其他國營事業招考的這個"},{"start":7878.238,"end":7897.896,"text":"錄取率非常非常低但我們台鐵的錄取率反而招考的人數反而不足所以這是一連串的結構問題我不知道台鐵公司現在公司化之後董事長你也調薪了那你對於這樣的底薪這種起薪這麼低面對的風險這麼高要怎麼辦後續我們再招考重新招考的話難道台鐵的這個員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎"},{"start":7899.197,"end":7918.99,"text":"各位委員報告其實我們國營事業我們的薪水都是依照我們的規定、規矩來的那的確我們台鐵公司現在尤其是基層員工我們的薪水不如某些其他國營事業所以我們現在公司我們一定要"},{"start":7919.83,"end":7920.671,"text":"董事長最後一句話因為時間也到了"},{"start":7936.317,"end":7960.251,"text":"我也坦誠的覺得說你們的確應該要增加營業收入不管你在後面要調票價或是說你要做這個土地開發但是我們希望這個錢這個資金是能夠回饋到基層員工嘛你不要說真的不要管理層調薪水啦你的基層如果沒調薪水你的人你就一定不足人不足大家就想走走了之後經驗傳承出現問題那就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題嘛所以董事長你可以承諾說未來"},{"start":7961.172,"end":7962.053,"text":"接下來邀請廖先祥委員"},{"start":7988.786,"end":7991.89,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請我們的五次長跟我們的台鐵的董事長杜董事長"},{"start":8010.619,"end":8020.228,"text":"國營好你好我延續著剛剛的黃建豪委員的提問同樣身為我們交通部國營事業臺鐵新進的從業人員起薪只有34221塊比不上我們中華郵政的41750元也更落後我們港務公司的47000多元"},{"start":8029.198,"end":8054.448,"text":"但是我們也可以看到的是現在台鐵從業人員要面臨的是很辛苦的工作環境以及高風險甚至裝備都很欠缺的情況那我想要請問一下公司化後我們基層的工薪資我們基層員工的薪資漲了多少請問一下我們的杜董事長各位報告我們基層員工有分兩塊有一塊是我們的留任人員"},{"start":8055.29,"end":8057.891,"text":"所以也就是說原本有保障的是沒漲嗎?"},{"start":8082.921,"end":8106.229,"text":"那現在新的新的你們調高的那個心理管理要點的話大概是對心理管理要點是我們從業人員將來這個續薪的依據啦那基本上跟我們這個留任人員是約略相當的但是但是他可以他有機會可以領取4.4個月的我們的考成獎金跟績效獎金董事長我想請問你們高成長了多少"},{"start":8107.352,"end":8135.538,"text":"我們高層包括我跟總經理還有我們所有員工在內我們都是依據我們國營事業的敘心的我知道你說辦法是有但是你漲了多少嘛40%嘛對不對可是我們基層的卻沒有漲那你想在這樣子的帶領之下基層沒有先漲高層先漲了那這樣子會不會影響基層的時期這是第一件事情沒關係我知道這是觀感問題這是領導觀感問題第二件事情就是想要請問"},{"start":8136.929,"end":8137.009,"text":"呃,我想"},{"start":8151.877,"end":8176.258,"text":"基層剛提到他是依照那個董事長總經理他們管理基層大概依照國營事業去做那現在剛針對於基層也就是所謂從業人員的部分就另外一塊的部分他針對他的底薪還有他的專業的屬性這些的職務的一個特性他就評定那他其實還有一些所謂的那市長就是我其實這邊就是只要未來"},{"start":8176.838,"end":8177.959,"text":"臺鐵未滿10年年資的員工常年在五城上下徘徊"},{"start":8205.777,"end":8221.963,"text":"好那其中又以移花東段最嚴重最高甚至來到56%所以不斷有這種資深的員工離職也會這樣趨勢在公司化之後有沒有再加重那要怎麼確保行車安全因為你的資深的都留不住啊薪資待遇不好啊"},{"start":8223.597,"end":8244.392,"text":"我想這部分主要大概剛剛董事長提到他在從這個營業收入的部分去增加那增加以後營業之後我想這個時候就是一個加薪的一個時機所以我要講的就是現在人員年資過短導致經驗無法傳承的工作環境自然影響到事故發生也是有這個影響的和運輸安全"},{"start":8245.333,"end":8258.501,"text":"那以運安會的這個鐵道安全報告中也顯示臺灣的平交道事故對比照統計定義相同的日本的JR居然長期高於日本的兩倍那你們認為有沒有改進的空間"},{"start":8260.993,"end":8282.844,"text":"評價到的部分確實因為它是一個開放性的真的是有時候其實我們碰到有一些就是不遵守那些交通規則就硬要進去已經警示燈了炸人一下來他還是硬要闖過去這當然所以我們這個要在我們的電路計畫裡面有提到一些如果自由太久的兩三秒鐘的部分他會警示"},{"start":8283.564,"end":8309.872,"text":"我講這部分我們會再來進行對 次長我覺得是這樣當然你可以講出很多理由甚至怪這些人不看這個交通耗資但是實際的數字就是這樣所以我們希望次長我想你也覺得應該要改變所以我們希望可以實質的去討論如何真的改善在未來的數字可以下降那另外我也想要問一下我們可以看到整體台鐵的事件高居不下大概都是六七百件左右那我想要請問一下部長112年到底是幾件"},{"start":8313.683,"end":8340.812,"text":"一百一十二年的一百一十二年到底是幾件這裡一百一百零八年七百一十五件嘛一百零九年六百三十二件一百一十年七百零二件嘛一百一十一年六百六十一件那一百一十二年到底是幾件因為我剛剛有看到委員有寫但是我想要問說在台鐵公報年報上居然在一百一十二年刪除了此欄所以為什麼會這樣"},{"start":8342.216,"end":8349.085,"text":"那我上網去查大概就只有分月報表有那為什麼年報沒有是有不想要讓大家看清楚這個數字嗎"},{"start":8351.515,"end":8375.11,"text":"跟委員報告,我們沒有什麼好隱瞞的對,那這裡是疏漏嗎?不公開數字這是不是容我回去查一下跟委員報告好不好好,那請查完之後再跟我們講為什麼年報沒有我們沒有要隱瞞是,所以我只是提供這個給你看我相信這平坦講過去幾年也都公佈那為什麼112年沒有另外準點率的部分"},{"start":8376.01,"end":8405.102,"text":"我們前任交通部長李孟彥雖然他的任期不長但是他有一項宣示就是說在台鐵今年一月轉型國營公司之後並且進行組織調整就是簡單來講他就是希望效率大大提高讓我們台鐵的準點率能夠從95%漲到97%我想請問這個目標是不是依然沒有改變目標沒有改變不過也要跟委員老實的報告因為今年的天災比較多那我們的準點率是有受到影響"},{"start":8406.078,"end":8421.314,"text":"是這部分呢我想當然是努力達成那不要亂開支票不過我想要講一件事情我們可以發現所謂的95%的準點率是指單一的這個列車抵達終點站的時候那實際抵達時間如果在表定的時間的一定範圍內就可以說為準點了那"},{"start":8423.576,"end":8450.956,"text":"對吧那換句話說中途停靠各站究竟是提早或者是延誤多久都不在這個所論上面那這就會造成民眾的體感或者印象上怎麼與統計數字有這麼大的差異那我想要講前面97%你們說統計的目標依然要努力的達成但是未來能不能夠把各站的統計點這各站點的統計數據也都納入參考這樣才可以知道真正的每一站你的準點率是多少"},{"start":8452.236,"end":8467.262,"text":"是不是跟委員報告其實我們這個準點率是全應該是講說全國一致性的啦全國一致性的一個做法那你現在一致性是從出發點到就是末端點嗎但是我意思是說你中間的這個這個站點呢"},{"start":8468.903,"end":8494.354,"text":"因為計算方式是一樣跟委員報告計算方式一樣但是我們台鐵公司我們願意就剛剛委員講的方式我們也會去做統計然後我們來做作為我們改進的一個參考是啊因為這是證實民眾的感受嘛我也不是所有都在起點做末端下車啦中間我是臺中會上車會坐到哪裡這個部分應該也是要列入統計和參考是是是好謝謝謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝廖偉強委員"},{"start":8502.335,"end":8504.156,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請我們交通部吳政次跟我們臺鐵公司杜董事長"},{"start":8531.008,"end":8533.131,"text":"請吳次長還有杜威董事長委員好"},{"start":8539.273,"end":8564.23,"text":"市長早 董事長早那我想今天我們交通委員會針對台鐵的一個鐵道安全的部分我想前面幾位委員都提了很多的問題那本席這邊還是要再一次強調這個整個台鐵過去這個整個從以前台鐵局到現在改制到台鐵公司之後我想包含我們相關的部會也好包含我們"},{"start":8565.191,"end":8592.069,"text":"所有很多的社會都對於台鐵公司有很高的期待希望我們能夠藉由這一次改制能夠脫胎換骨但是我們現在看到不但現在我們的現任人員難以留任新人招考的狀況更是不理想像今年2月我們公司招考了936名的新進人員結果只有錄取了700多位尤其在電力、電務、電機這些專業人力的上面"},{"start":8595.331,"end":8614.4,"text":"出現不是不足的錄取就是零錄取的一些狀況那在薪資結構方面除了原本的薪資結構遠遠不如我們高鐵之外甚至連這個小夜勤的加班費高鐵從10月份開始申請一個人275塊三次發放但我們台鐵夜點費只有120塊這個不到一半然後"},{"start":8622.144,"end":8644.559,"text":"採請的狀況也不云不如人那尤其我們現在臺鐵公司的同仁有時候遇到這些刮風下雨還要冒著生命危險來搶救那包含我們的車長的一個備勤津貼、靈軌作業人員一些危險津貼跟這個第一線的這個主管津貼也許久未來調整那我想請教一下我們的次長跟董事長針對這樣子的一個薪資結構怎麼樣來做有效的調整"},{"start":8648.702,"end":8665.143,"text":"避免我們的這個競爭力能夠落後所以我簡單先說明然後再請杜董說比較細節的部分我想針對於臺鐵創業人員的這個薪資的部分除了基本薪資的考量以外還要考慮到他的職務的特性"},{"start":8666.743,"end":8686.391,"text":"還有他的專業的屬性去做一些評定的所謂的這樣的薪資當然還有一些所謂的包括他們現在祭出的記憶獎金的部分比如說你三節出勤我還會再給你記憶獎金那危險津貼其實也有我想這部分大概會努力去做那當然最重要的是要創造這個台鐵的營收"},{"start":8688.032,"end":8706.369,"text":"把他增加以後,他的有營餘,這樣的話他有辦法把營餘回饋到員工裡面來對,市長,這個我們都認同啦,但是客氣我們臺鐵自己的產業工會最近也發起這個全島連署,要求要加薪,這個事情董事長怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":8707.25,"end":8731.961,"text":"是 我想剛剛市長也有跟委員說明就是我們這邊一定要先增加我們的課員就是我們本業的收入還有就是善用資產就是我們副業的收入必須要讓我們的營運收入來提升這樣子我們才有辦法回饋到這個我們整個這個待遇調整的一個項目上去"},{"start":8733.289,"end":8753.011,"text":"董事長這一點因為我們的人員的不足加上相關的調度的一個產生很大的一個問題所以我記得上一會期本席也有特別提過我們雖然現在我們的機場設在我們潮州西部幹線但是屏東的鄉親似乎沒有享受到這樣子一個便捷的交通措施"},{"start":8753.672,"end":8775.278,"text":"像我們的班次來講,屏東縣的區間車的班次有時候甚至要等到2個小時才有一班車這個非常離譜啦這個機場設在我們屏東結果我們卻不能享受這樣的一個優質的一個交通服務這部分是不是上一次會期的時候會有要求我們台鐵公司來做檢討那不曉得這個後續的處理狀況"},{"start":8777.599,"end":8805.178,"text":"各位委員報告這個部分大概有兩個項目第一個就是我們有去檢視我們潮州以北一直到高雄台南地區這個班次應該是夠應該是夠那現在重點是潮州以南那這一段的確這個剛剛講Headway比較大那這個部分我們在今年6月的時候我們有增加開兩班車來縮減它的Headway"},{"start":8807.699,"end":8828.318,"text":"但是可能還不太夠了那我們現在的想法是說因為我們增開班次車上每一班車大概也就是三十幾位旅客啦我們有去看那我們現在的想法是說去看一下真正我們這一個區段的旅客他需要"},{"start":8829.159,"end":8829.96,"text":"比較密集的時間帶"},{"start":8859.78,"end":8880.039,"text":"好那另外我想大家關心的臺鐵票價的一個調漲問題那當然對於這個整個成本的考量也好還有我們整個營運的成本考量也好我想臺鐵目前針對這樣的有聽說已經有在董事會有做討論那目前有沒有進一步的一個進度可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":8881.14,"end":8897.519,"text":"這個委員報告我們其實上一次第8次董事會已經有提報一個合理化的方案但是董事會認為不周延有退回經理部門再做更進一步比較周延的研究現在還在進行中"},{"start":8898.38,"end":8923.263,"text":"對,所以針對所謂的一個短程、中程、長程的一個票價的部分,是不是我們應該台鐵要提出一個比較有競爭性的一個方案?是,是,因為是要比較周圍對啊,你跟高鐵比好像也有點,跟這個捷運系統比好像也比不上,變成這個都不討好營運上也出現很大的問題,是不是應該做一個比較神聖的一個考量?是,這個是我們要努力"},{"start":8925.68,"end":8940.726,"text":"那請問一下次長針對台鐵這個票票價如果確定要調漲之後是不是應該針對不同的路線跟服務的等級要做一些靈活的一個運用甚至說我本期之前提過的"},{"start":8941.186,"end":8941.266,"text":"好,這沒問題"},{"start":8965.202,"end":8989.225,"text":"那另外我想針對這個屏東車站跟潮州車站都還是有出現漏雨的問題那我印像上次本席在上個會期提的時候董事長有承諾說這部分是不是已經有開始在做相關的一個工程的進行是跟委員報告像這個照片左邊這個現在不會發生了這個是我們站內那個集水盤"},{"start":8990.326,"end":9016.314,"text":"融量不夠,那我們已經加大像這一次這個颱風、豪雨這個地區沒有在漏了但是右邊那個就是我們不是右邊,就是我們月台上的月台上的因為他那個年代久了,Silicon比較有脆化因為那個是要高價作業的我們大概在10月底以前會來進行改善"},{"start":9017.403,"end":9046.947,"text":"董事長我想這個還是要抓住問題啦因為畢竟像我們屏東站跟朝鮮都大概時間都不到10年那出現這樣的一個狀況因為本席也是常客我幾乎很常去做我自己也發現這個很多的包含老人家也好很多的學生也好為了要生活等等很容易跌倒啦真的很危險啦所以我想在這個問題一定要加快期程這個不能再拖下去那我們也希望說把這個修正問題解決之後"},{"start":9047.327,"end":9048.969,"text":"謝謝徐副委員我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9709.73,"end":9715.493,"text":"好,現在繼續開會現在處理臨時提案請議事人員一併宣讀臨時提案一有鑒於東部資交通發展企113年5月尚未完成雙軌跡電氣化使外移票難求資問題仍未有效解決欲確提出最為不相關之漲票價"},{"start":9737.885,"end":9764.537,"text":"政策,原始建建交通部及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司在花東鐵路電氣化及雙軌化尚未完成且今年度多次遭受颱風侵襲東部幹線中斷成為常態,民眾必須花費更多交通金錢與時間成本往返北部東部災區完成復原與完全修復之前"},{"start":9767.611,"end":9779.418,"text":"動掌臺鐵東部幹線之票價避免帶給東部民眾及外線式觀光客之衝擊提案人委員黃敬豪等"},{"start":9780.799,"end":9809.447,"text":"一時提案二大臺中山海環線計畫歷經十餘年。建請交通部考量提高專案補助大慶烏日鐵路高架化海線鐵路雙軌跡部分高架化經費以及請交通部加速相關計畫行政流程並進促審查並將後續執行狀況書面資料回覆本委員會、提案人何新淳等"},{"start":9814.245,"end":9834.549,"text":"臨時提案三未來終結局限綜合規劃基本設計、細部設計與補助款項、撥補等程序上有充分時間可以努力若臺中市政府進行局限延伸清水段的可行性研究一併納入局限捷運可全段一次施工完成有經費不足"},{"start":9836.105,"end":9858.815,"text":"交通部應全力予以協助提案人和心存等。因此提案4有近於臺中市烏日區2023年登記人口數突破8萬人已入之人口逐年增加高鐵臺中站旁設置大型觀光購物觀光商城已進入開工前至工程未來如購物觀光商城開幕後"},{"start":9859.395,"end":9877.422,"text":"交通人潮必然更趨繁忙而漸傾交通部評估國道1號與高鐵臺中站周邊偵射閘道之可能性．並與臺中市政府共同研議規劃改善臺中市高鐵站區周邊之交通提案人委員何新淳等"},{"start":9878.955,"end":9898.892,"text":"臨時提案五位競速規劃並建構臺中捷運路網線臺中市政府初步規劃重得豐原線且臺中市政府於今年8月初申請可行性研究補助資料含送交通部請交通部加速臺中捷運重得豐原線行政流程並"},{"start":9900.154,"end":9909.186,"text":"簡述、審查並以中央補助比例協助並將後續執行狀況書面資料回覆本委員會提案人何新淳等宣布完畢"},{"start":9917.818,"end":9934.231,"text":"請杜董事長剛剛有跟委員報告我們建議最後倒數第三行的最右邊開始做一點修正那我念一下就是從東部災區那邊開始"},{"start":9937.073,"end":9965.291,"text":"東部災區河仁崇德間完成復原恢復雙線通車之前動漲台鐵東部幹線之票價避免帶給東部民眾及外縣市觀光客之衝擊斗點未來票價合理化方案應考量花東輸運特性調整"},{"start":9966.564,"end":9987.057,"text":"好謝謝杜董事長那針對杜董事長的剛剛的修正意見請問委員有沒有意見好沒有意見我們請那個臺鐵公司杜董事長再把書面給議事組這邊是請委員簽名再給議事組OK好謝謝好那照案就是修正通過"},{"start":9988.916,"end":10016.282,"text":"好那針對臨時提案第二案請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見好我們請提案委員何欣淳委員好謝謝這個案子是我跟蔡啟昌委員共同提案因為我們共同在關心大台中這個山海環線的計畫那我記得上個會期有曾經問過這個我們局長局長有主動去跟台中市政府溝通就有關這個三線鐵路高架化延伸至烏日就大慶到烏日段還有海線"},{"start":10017.242,"end":10045.222,"text":"的鐵路雙軌及部分的高架化以及新建甲後線的鐵路這三件事情我記得局長有說要跟台中市政府協調、協商那是不是可以做部分的調整跟拆解那我想可能有初步的一個共識那我現在只是提案希望再確認而且確保希望交通部能夠在這三件事上面可以"},{"start":10045.922,"end":10046.822,"text":"請蔡其山委員"},{"start":10073.474,"end":10086.91,"text":"這個案子我想楊局長跟部長、次長都到我辦公室去報告過那跟新屬委員共同提案其實主要就是說透過提案讓部裡面更加清楚"},{"start":10088.291,"end":10112.499,"text":"我們臺中兩位委員的一個態度跟想法那主要分兩個段落嘛我想我們大家都知道第一個就是大慶段這個也談很久了那當時還是主要在於經費分配比例的問題所以這個部分呢一定要跟臺中市政府再一次的積極溝通中央願意出錢依照規定中央出該出的那如果市政府財政困難"},{"start":10114.059,"end":10139.487,"text":"中央依照規定裡面我們允許最大的補助款我覺得中央都應該來協助台中市但是當然我們如果要中央全出這個都是這個就是市政府不做這件事情的藉口這個我想沒有辦法這麼多年來就卡在這裡所以能夠出的我們盡量來幫忙這是第一個要確立的原則那第二個海線的部分因為我們當時我要求"},{"start":10140.307,"end":10165.321,"text":"要從環線裡面把海線的雙軌高架切割出來那雙軌化我們已經進行這個可言早就已經做一段時間了那這個問題不大但現在依照進度持續推動海線的雙軌化但是在大甲、清水、沙路三個段要高架化這個又要市政府做部分依照規定做部分的配合款"},{"start":10166.081,"end":10188.447,"text":"那這個盧市長從過去不願意到現在我聽你們的講法上他有鬆口那我的原則還是一樣如果地方政府的經費不足但他願意出但經費不夠我們中央依照規定可協助的部分我們還是要盡力來協助也就是說只要"},{"start":10189.693,"end":10218.391,"text":"中央可以協助我們臺中發展的部分我跟何欣淳的委員都覺得中央就要全力來幫忙啦那如果中央幫忙了地方政府不做那臺中市民自有論斷嘛我覺得我一向的立場都是如此那最後一件事情就是說時間的把握很重要為什麼因為我們中央直接自己做的海線的雙軌化我們按照時程在推動但如果"},{"start":10219.742,"end":10248.062,"text":"市政府沒有辦法配合那這時候會出現一個狀況就是先雙軌化好了再拆掉雙軌化再把它高價我想這個浪費公帑市民也不會接受所以我想這個兩個界面就是地方政府同意高價化願意支持經費中央的雙軌化中央來全面處理那這兩個界面之間要把它配合好這個就是上一次你們到我辦公室"},{"start":10248.823,"end":10260.251,"text":"我再三提醒的這個部分所以局長你可能要多多把握那新屬委員把他加以書面化所以我們會希望表示我們非常重視這樣的一個案子好 謝謝"},{"start":10262.145,"end":10278.603,"text":"好 那謝謝 針對臨時提案第二案我們交通部這邊是不是請次長還是楊局長好 跟兩位委員報告 這個提案我們沒有意見那完全遵照委員的指導來辦理那至於剛剛何委員跟蔡委員所關切的這個山線跟海線的高架的部分"},{"start":10279.765,"end":10298.187,"text":"確實我們現在努力的在按照三個計畫做拆分然後經費的部分按照剛剛委員所指導的原則來進行那這個案子我們已經轉報到行政院那國安會有一些修正的意見現在正在由臺中市政府來做修正的報告我們後續會按照這個方向來努力"},{"start":10300.418,"end":10309.43,"text":"好 謝謝那臨時提案第二案行政單位沒有意見我們就照案通過那針對臨時提案第三案請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見"},{"start":10313.066,"end":10338.634,"text":"這也是我跟蔡啟昌委員共同的提案事實上蔡啟昌是清水在地的優秀立委我是清水的媳婦所以我們共同在推這個海線捷運能夠進入清水尤其我們現在看到局限的已經通過可行性評估原則通過現在台中市政府還在做修正調整"},{"start":10339.894,"end":10365.487,"text":"我們希望還在做修正調整的時候可以要求臺中市政府重視清水地區納入局限延伸的可行我跟蔡委員是希望我們中央在我們的專業還有技術面是不是可以跟臺中市政府再做進一步的溝通"},{"start":10367.208,"end":10387.908,"text":"希望臺中市政府,所以我在這裡面寫若臺中市政府進行局限延伸清水段的可行性評估那我希望在中央地方大家一起合作那我們交通部應該全力的予以協助是這個提案的最主要的精神好,謝謝何信楚委員說明好,那我們請蔡吉山委員"},{"start":10388.308,"end":10404.27,"text":"我來做個補充這個我想交通部也從上一任部長到這一任部長你們都來我辦公室溝通過我的想法很簡單嘛這個就效益而言短短的3公里就可以到清水街上但卻只到清泉崗機場"},{"start":10406.833,"end":10434.984,"text":"這種專業規劃極不合理對海線的鄉親極不尊重所以我在委員會也質詢過本席如果覺得市政府這樣做的話本席對這個案子中央要來經費來支持我覺得我高度有意見這是一個不合理不合常規的一個規劃那我請從前任部長到這任部長我都請你們跟臺中市政府來進行溝通那你們也都去溝通了剛剛吳次長也跟我講有都去溝通了"},{"start":10435.697,"end":10450.907,"text":"那主要是這樣因為市政府已經將局限到清泉崗國際機場的可言送到中央也通過了所以市政府不願意再破壞原有送來的這個可言那我也本席也支持"},{"start":10451.974,"end":10474.901,"text":"那本席覺得應該同時這個時候市政府再發包一個案子就是延伸線的可言再發包一個案子那市政府如果經費不夠沒有問題我也跟兩個部長都溝通好了中央可言的預算這一條延伸的可言預算中央來支持中央來出就對了啦所以市政府現在的回覆是"},{"start":10477.199,"end":10482.632,"text":"局長說會報告給市長所以要請市長趕快來支持這個"},{"start":10485.868,"end":10512.218,"text":"中央都幫他爭取到可言的經費中央都願意出了因為可言趕快這個時候做到時候施工就可以一起啦就是說現在的局限過的可言加上延伸線過的可言如果兩個可言都過了那到時候因為施工還有一段很長的時間啊maybe十年吧以上那到時候就可以一起嘛那你這時候不把這個可言一併做好"},{"start":10513.078,"end":10536.6,"text":"那你要等民國幾年才要來做這個可言所以我覺得把握這個時間點不分藍綠啦為台中市民來做事這個才是最重要的阿我也爭取到了我跟新淳爭取到了中央可以來補助嘛所以我也很希望這個市政府啦真的這個以蒼生為念以海線的發展為念來支持這個案子"},{"start":10538.536,"end":10562.515,"text":"好 謝謝蔡啟昌委員那我們是不是請交通部這邊做回應是 我這邊跟委員報告齁我們對這個事情非常的慎重齁在上禮拜我找了那個台中市政府來開會那跟他說明確實延伸到清水我們有聽到很多民意我們請他再考量一下那剛才提到的這樣的費用交通部願意來幫忙來支持"},{"start":10563.155,"end":10589.282,"text":"那他上禮拜給我的給我的初步回應是說應該會去做所以對那這剛剛提到如果說同步去進行的時候未來如果同時核定那我就一起施工都沒有關係即使有差一點都沒有關係就是同步去可以完成可以做就趕快去做因為他畢竟他比較短啦他未來真的就有機會一次全部把它完成"},{"start":10589.802,"end":10599.354,"text":"OK對所以你聽到了初步回應是會做好那我們期待啦好不好那我們中央交通不一定要全力支持好不好這一定好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":10601.622,"end":10602.303,"text":"臺中高鐵站周遭交通狀況我上次在質詢的時候就有讓部長"},{"start":10629.979,"end":10643.544,"text":"市長還有大家都有聽到我們現在真的必須立刻來面對解決這個問題那當然有很多方法那我在這個提案裡面呢是這個交通部是不是可以來"},{"start":10644.824,"end":10665.935,"text":"平估看看國道1號跟高鐵台中站的連結這是一個正式達到之後當然還有其他平面道路該解決的也希望交通部跟台中市政府共同來研議規劃改善因為台中高鐵站人口"},{"start":10666.815,"end":10695.835,"text":"最多流量最多應該叫流量最多第二個他有國際展覽會館在那裡第三個他有一個未來的一個亞洲最大的一個大型觀光購物中心在那裡那現在已經在塞了那未來你可以看到三年後絕對會更塞那我們要未雨綢繆所以我希望交通部再更積極一點那來做各項的評估來找解方然後最重要的是要跟台中市政府也要做一個"},{"start":10696.936,"end":10704.004,"text":"中央地方密切的溝通看怎麼樣去解決所以這個是我這個提案希望大家支持"},{"start":10712.714,"end":10735.751,"text":"是我請跟委員報告我想這個部分現在我們知道交通那個台中市政府他有在做所謂轉一站一些交通的事情這個我們都密切在保持配合那另外一個針對閘道國道一號政策閘道部因為閘道他有一些技術上的一些需求這沒關係這我想我們請我們的高工局我們來做一個評估這沒問題我們來評估看看"},{"start":10738.325,"end":10753.369,"text":"好 謝謝那針對臨時提案第4案交通部這邊沒有意見我們就照案通過好那接下來我們處理第5案那請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見我再補充說明一下好請行政委員這個也就同樣我跟蔡相偉關係這個臺中的軌道運輸的部分"},{"start":10757.251,"end":10773.877,"text":"現在有綠線、藍線、橘線藍線還要再延伸到屯區橘線我們剛剛提案要延伸到清水綠線的線型有延伸往北到大坑往南到彰化還有另外一個屯區的環狀線就是大屏幕線"},{"start":10776.678,"end":10792.006,"text":"那我希望另外我們很多人在爭取包括不分黨派的委員大家就認為我們在崇德跟豐原線就三線我們在目前的這個臺中的捷運路網裡面我們缺了三線的這一塊這一線所以希望能夠規劃崇德豐原線那這個也邀請交通部是不是可以支持"},{"start":10803.611,"end":10821.8,"text":"這是這個提案最主要希望交通部能夠支持大台中的一個軌道捷運好不好好謝謝新淳委員那請問還有沒有其他委員要補充說明如果沒有我們請交通部這邊做回應是這邊我想遵照委員的指導這我們部分會全力來協助那交通部這邊沒有意見我們歷史提案第5案就照案通過"},{"start":10831.287,"end":10836.455,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢,如有委員對上述提案補簽,列入紀錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":10856.697,"end":10863.438,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩主席請五次長跟杜董事長請五次長還有杜葳董事長"},{"start":10869.958,"end":10892.596,"text":"市長早安市長我想剛剛臨時提案我已經提過了但是剛剛我想說上台再來問你這個捷運局限你也跟市政府進行溝通那我也從中央爭取的預算來補助市政府讓局限可以從現行市政府規劃的清泉崗國際機場延伸到清水"},{"start":10893.715,"end":10913.433,"text":"那市政府也初步這個他們的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案那我想請問次長這件事情什麼時候可以定案也就是說臺中市的交通局給你一個正向的答案但是這個答案我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親跟海線的鄉親報告說"},{"start":10916.224,"end":10941.822,"text":"這件事情延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃的海線有希望捷運可以到了來所以我跟委員報告齁上禮拜我召開這個會議他們是他們交通局的副局長過來那我們也跟他提到說這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意這個需求希望能夠延伸這樣才算是比較完整對沒錯"},{"start":10942.182,"end":10962.426,"text":"已經到那邊到清水其實短短的幾公里而已我們一直跟他也這樣做一個建議但是今天是在地方事務所以我們跟他講說沒關係這個時候如果你要做一個研究我們跟他講說其實可以做一個研究那這個可信性研究那個費用部分交通部會全力來支持沒錯這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的"},{"start":10962.686,"end":10966.029,"text":"市長我的意思就是說我希望在今年的12月底之前我要看到市政府的申請"},{"start":10990.595,"end":10991.356,"text":"時間就是在走嘛"},{"start":11014.657,"end":11031.834,"text":"你沒那麼快你可言我錢都要給你市政府你連申請的公文都不上來申請這條可言你市政府跟我講說你態度上想要延伸局限想要照我的意見延伸到清水那你這不是說謊話嗎這不是擺明的就是擺爛嗎所以"},{"start":11035.778,"end":11057.226,"text":"市長我不希望浪費時間,所以如果到今年年底市政府申請中央要補助他,請他都退船好,他還不可以走,你一定要讓本席知道,可以嗎?是,可以,沒問題。好,OK。那個今天啊,這個謝謝昭緯啊,特別安排啊,這個台鐵公司啊,這個安全的問題啊,這個本席啊,認真把它研究,其實台鐵齁,這個"},{"start":11060.311,"end":11071.224,"text":"在談那些漲價我也跟杜董事長溝通過服務品質跟安全是旅客對台鐵公司的要求所以如果大家把安全跟品質做好"},{"start":11072.028,"end":11091.164,"text":"要談漲價消費者接受的程度會比較高如果這個事情特別是安全都沒有做好你要跟人家談漲價有時候民眾這個接受程度很低那我看了一下那個我不知道董事長你們提這個臺鐵5年的安全提升方案"},{"start":11092.105,"end":11118.642,"text":"董事長這是應該是在你任內這個是你提的嘛從一百一百一十三年到一百一十七年啊這個五年安全提升方案是嗎對這是我們公司的政策對那我看了一下你這個這個方案齁總共叫五年啊那這五年的方案從一百一十三年開始到一百一十三年還沒有結束但我把你一到八月你們現在有的資料我看了一下齁這個"},{"start":11122.155,"end":11142.088,"text":"台鐵公司你們的五年提升計畫113年要求要比112年這個一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數要降低20%但是我把它看了一下113年看起來不但不會降低還會比112年升高"},{"start":11145.509,"end":11165.924,"text":"董事長你有沒有發現時間還沒有到但我跟你估算一下因為你的發生事故每一個月的平均值其實都相當平均啦所以換言之我現在已經10月了剩下要保存差不多3個月我跟你統計一下你今年不但不會降低你的報告是說今年開始要降低20%喔"},{"start":11167.225,"end":11196.281,"text":"第一年就要降低20%但是現在來檢驗你的報告的第一年不但不會降低還會升高欸董事長你有沒有發現這個問題是對阿什麼原因跟委員報告齁這個我們就是今年可能會無法達標這件事情大概有幾個因素第一個就是我們這個事故事件我們的統計我們是綜合可控跟不可控因素全部都在裡面"},{"start":11196.961,"end":11218.787,"text":"今年老實講第一個最大的原因是今年的天災比較多一點所以我們整體的成績就變成建樹也往上拉第二個也不諱言就是我們現在老舊車輛這一部分我們去努力的還不夠所以這個也是有增加第三部分"},{"start":11219.747,"end":11236.667,"text":"就是我們因為要建立我們公司的安全文化所以我們以往在112年以前我們沒有列進來說它是算一個事故或是一個事件的這種這種情形我們在今年我們都把它列進來"},{"start":11237.668,"end":11260.663,"text":"因為要建立正確的觀念好好的去檢討那這大概是今年可能沒有辦法達標最主要的三個原因但是我們也有努力啦像今年我們的這個耗資系統我們的故障就下降那個同仁的人為因素這個部分也下降那個董事長如果要這樣"},{"start":11262.16,"end":11282.735,"text":"你現在告訴我三個主要原因一個就是天災一個就是車子老舊第三個就是過去的指標太籠統現在用嚴謹的標準所以看起來你的比例就上升了那如果你要這樣做拜託一下啦這種五年安全提升方案你就重做啦"},{"start":11283.697,"end":11289.825,"text":"那個楊局長應該要監督你嘛這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你對不對你叫楊局長怎麼監督啦"},{"start":11294.653,"end":11320.621,"text":"就是說你五年改善計畫的第一年都已經不但沒有下降一般是說我們目標20啦結果天災啦什麼所以我只下降10%很抱歉你現在不是你現在是沒有下降還上升而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉啦上升30%以上都跑不掉那你覺得不可控的因素叫天災那你應該把天災分出來嘛"},{"start":11321.786,"end":11345.52,"text":"不然如果我做一個立法院我怎麼監督你我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你那個運安會在這裡他怎麼監督啊我按照你自己寫的標準都做不到還上升但是你現在跟我解釋說因為很多天災你天災你本來就應該要排除你要告訴我監督者或者你告訴鐵道局說那個天災放在這一邊"},{"start":11346.653,"end":11354.732,"text":"但是我其他人委的放這一邊所以鐵道局可以監督你立法院可以監督你代表消費者你的安全啊"},{"start":11355.72,"end":11377.645,"text":"我要求就這個嘛是是董事長這個不過分嘛是是市長可以嗎可以這沒問題這個至少你的方案我要看到新的你的五年安全提升的方案這你自己寫的第一年的出包啊現在在談安全這個這個大家可能在立法院站在監督者的角色我是不大能夠接受這就出現這個狀況嘛"},{"start":11379.601,"end":11403.956,"text":"局長應該今年看起來如果到12月給你的報告你也是看不下去了對不對應該是很難達標對我也知道很難達標所以後面這幾年你要告訴我所以114年可以達標我也很懷疑所以這個應該局長次長重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的你就要做實事你就紮紮實實的去做"},{"start":11406.107,"end":11430.915,"text":"有一個KPI有一個指標我們可以監督你你也可以跟同仁大家一起來努力把這個指標達成不要都做假的啦就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案什麼方案什麼方案結果最後都是做假的我們都做不夠好那另外你說老舊我看了一下今年的預算你們要把那個像那個台鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫本來113年就應該要完成了"},{"start":11435.629,"end":11464.588,"text":"看起來你們今天的預算要把它延到116年對不對是阿為什麼會113年該買完該貸換完的這個車輛要拖到116年為什麼這因為主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情齁這個車輛製造廠商齁他沒有辦法如期的把車子交給我們好所以確定是這樣子啦齁不是我們的行政效率很差啦齁不是是交貨廠商的問題阿這個有沒有罰則"},{"start":11466.842,"end":11494.925,"text":"這個就是也是要看他的真正的原因我覺得台鐵公司的權益你們要去捍衛啦好不好因為他的供應鏈什麼都有收到113年就要買鎖了現在還要主席已經站起來了啦其實我對安全你說那個明日號的車廂少掛一截我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋我實在是不大能夠接受次長這個通報系統也要知道啦"},{"start":11496.488,"end":11524.33,"text":"少一截車廂沒管欸次長這個你們至少交通部應該有對於下屬所有從航空陸地到海洋從平路到軌道重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛你們才會知道而且更何況今天要來立法院還是題目叫做臺鐵的安全欸"},{"start":11525.851,"end":11544.078,"text":"一截車廂沒過,這像是說全家要出遊,去到目的地外頭才發現,怎麼會欠債一個這個邏輯就是這個樣子,這個很可怕,聽起來就很恐怖所以市長應該要早知道,這個事情你交通部要充分掌握,董事長"},{"start":11557.427,"end":11571.639,"text":"我們總會不可能這麼重大事情只有一個同仁我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽有沒有看清楚不可能嘛所以剛剛早上的回答本席聽完實在是替你們捏一把冷汗"},{"start":11573.542,"end":11576.445,"text":"還好他只是掃掛他沒有造成什麼生命財產的損失啊"},{"start":11578.206,"end":11603.371,"text":"不然你看這個是多離譜的案子嘛 對不對?是趕快掛一個車廂欸這很難想像至少對我來講我很難理解這個事情時間的關係啦我沒有辦法因為我準備了很多要安全跟你們好好的探討但因為已經超過太久的時間了但我還是強調啦台鐵齁沒有安全就談不了其他的事情啦"},{"start":11604.251,"end":11621.512,"text":"沒安全就其他都不用說嘛你看高鐵我也看了高鐵的報告他雖然還是有一些數字還是不是很漂亮啦但是基本上你看消費者在對高鐵的準點安全舒適度他的滿意度相對是高很多的"},{"start":11622.353,"end":11637.83,"text":"所以台鐵公司有一個方向在但是不能拿這樣比啦這樣比台鐵公司的員工同仁一定不能接受嘛因為兩家企業從文化成立的目的通的不一樣但是給你們公司化了你們現在也要談漲價我們也知道台鐵要永續"},{"start":11638.939,"end":11665.41,"text":"可是這些問題之前像你說要漲幅啊要漲35.6我對這個數字我也很有意見我有意見不是說不可以漲35.6是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6你經營有效率你的成本就會降低但是如果你經營沒效率你的成本很高而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者"},{"start":11666.978,"end":11672.444,"text":"這個不合理所以我每次提這個我都希望你先蓋啦蓋到一個差不多啊我們這裡來講啊要怎麼去"},{"start":11674.4,"end":11698.739,"text":"所以本席不會是說未反對的反對說不可以,一定不可以漲,不可以漲台鐵的豆啊,沒有台鐵可以做啊但是要怎麼漲,我認為大家應該進入很細部的,大家好好來研究一下台鐵的效率達到一個程度了,你要轉嫁,適度轉嫁給消費者我覺得合理台鐵什麼都沒做,成本很高,為了不虧錢把高成本全部轉嫁,這個我反對"},{"start":11699.707,"end":11704.17,"text":"OK 喔 抱歉 主席啦 把你耽誤太多時間好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝蔡行商委員"},{"start":11710.06,"end":11732.976,"text":"在這邊也要提醒交通部還有臺鐵公司因為我們知道在過去幾年就是因為兩次的重大臺鐵的行車事故才促使這個臺鐵公司化的一個時程所以對臺鐵的這個安全的問題是大家非常的重視的所以希望我們臺鐵公司要加緊這個就是要上緊發條謝謝那接下來我們邀請何欣淳委員質詢"},{"start":11739.151,"end":11743.155,"text":"市長在進入我的質詢之前,其實大家在關心臺鐵公司化之後,其實公司文化、公司治理的文化跟員工"},{"start":11762.494,"end":11790.823,"text":"緩緩相扣所以我覺得這麼多委員其實都是關心而且是提醒我們都支持公司化那我們是希望在國人的期待之下臺鐵真的第一個文化要改第二個是我們內部的效率還有很多該做的事情也不能只有著眼於要不要漲價或是著眼於我只要有我臺鐵最多的這個土地的這個優化或是活化或是經營"},{"start":11791.883,"end":11804.61,"text":"不是只有這兩個選項第三個選項是我們自我的文化改革要求嘛對不對市長好不好那我第二個我要講的是剛剛我提案裡面的一件這個高鐵市長"},{"start":11808.915,"end":11834.313,"text":"臺中的高鐵站 這個流量 旅客的吞吐量是全國第二那我今天來 班班客滿 早上的班次 那節節車廂也都客滿那我現在就必須要講的是 第一個 我們既然已經有大數據知道說高鐵的臺中站是人流全國第二再來 我們又是三鐵共購"},{"start":11835.794,"end":11848.395,"text":"有捷運、有台鐵、有高鐵再來旁邊有國際展覽館未來會有全亞洲最大的購物觀光城Shopping中心那你看這個圖"},{"start":11850.815,"end":11873.044,"text":"很明顯就可以知道說第一個我們先怎麼檢討我們的交通紓解方案因為呢臺中高鐵案之前在中修連假曾經發生過這個排隊的人龍一直圈圈就一直排到外面去那呢花了好幾個小時才去化掉好現在呢我們有紓解的方案有"},{"start":11873.797,"end":11876.099,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全提升計畫"},{"start":11889.932,"end":11911.464,"text":"是怎麼樣去做紓解的配套措施在高鐵之外的平面道路又是如何跟地方政府來討論我們碰到廉價也好或者是有重大的觀光的活動也好我們跟地方政府又是如何來談人潮疏散跟我們輸運的配套"},{"start":11912.865,"end":11928.527,"text":"這兩件事嘛對不對那我先請教次長以台中的高鐵站為例喔台中高鐵站的這個進去跟出來的這個出入口的道路範圍到底是屬高鐵公司管還是台中市政府管"},{"start":11929.468,"end":11942.068,"text":"怎麼分工如果是以區域的部分是應該是臺中市政府所以現在臺中市政府他做一個轉營站的有在做規劃一個轉營站的一個交通的規劃可是市長臺中市政府跟我說是搞鐵公司管"},{"start":11944.359,"end":11959.804,"text":"如果是整個區域有一個進出來我現在你們全者要劃分清楚嘛才能夠談嘛以如果高鐵站站區內是在高鐵站的站區內的道路"},{"start":11961.029,"end":11981.565,"text":"站區內是屬於高鐵公司的那那個站區外要連結出去的平面道路臺中市政府對不對可是你知道嗎我不要講重大活動也不要講廉價你請同仁去看看高鐵臺中站在只要碰到五六日"},{"start":11982.878,"end":11997.731,"text":"他的一樓站區內的交通跟連結外面的平面道路我跟你講擁捨啊回賭到已經到74號上去啦你知道多長嗎"},{"start":12000.409,"end":12017.139,"text":"問題是到現在我只是說週末而已喔還不是有重大的活動喔就已經是這樣子的湧射了我們現在難道沒有解方嗎這第一件事情第二件事情我為什麼一直提這個我上次也質詢過我擔憂啊"},{"start":12019.56,"end":12044.587,"text":"我現在連週末的這個泳社我都沒有辦法解決了我未來還會有一個全亞洲最大的shopping中心在旁邊你告訴我說臺中市政府跟那個shopping中心他們有這個交通的配套措施可是我擔憂我沒有辦法相信因為現在就在塞了那未來怎麼辦"},{"start":12046.198,"end":12074.816,"text":"市長有沒有想過這件事有的確實是剛剛講台中站確實是人流真的是最多那這邊進出鐵道因為它整個外面的周遭可以看得出來你看那個就中南港公路它把它就把它竄在那邊它沒辦法再放大除非是跑到對方去一個是國道1號嘛一個是74號東張嘛對不對那旁邊的平面道路呢基本上呢都不太大條"},{"start":12075.736,"end":12090.507,"text":"對,都很小,對,所以這部分我想我們大概分兩個部分,第一個當然我們會來進來跟這個台中市府來做一個協調,看怎麼去改善,第二個剛剛委員也提到說,我的是不是可以適合找到的問題,這部分我想我們也會責成我們的責任"},{"start":12093.008,"end":12113.02,"text":"我提供給我們交通部是不是可以跟台中市政府大家來談談看第一個就國道1號的閘道這個剛剛說高工局可以來評估看看第二個我曾經邀請公路局也去考察過會勘過74號線是不是能夠再增設一個閘道第三支建台中市政府的"},{"start":12114.1,"end":12138.943,"text":"責任有一個計畫道路是可以延伸銜接永春東7路如果這三支建是在高鐵站外的一個中央跟地方大家可以一起合作去增加平面道路的疏解也好或者是高速公路的疏解、快速道路的疏解這是一個"},{"start":12139.966,"end":12164.017,"text":"整個區域上可以解決的三支箭那至於高鐵站區內的跟臺中市政府平面道路的銜接的如何去讓交通疏散的配套措施更完善我覺得高鐵公司也要盡力點責任跟臺中市政府要好好的溝通總經理可以嗎"},{"start":12169.093,"end":12174.475,"text":"總經理現在是週末的時候光是在站區內這個旅客要來接客的接旅客的那個你知道嗎從禮拜五、禮拜六、禮拜天幾乎通通都是塞塞塞回讀到74號上面去這個你有空可以去找個這個禮拜五的週末的時間去看一下"},{"start":12198.081,"end":12217.251,"text":"因為這個人潮在5、6日確實是非常的擁擠所以現在5、6日就這樣子還沒有重大活動這個娛樂城還沒有完工現在就這樣子了所以我才會請交通部這邊是幫忙趕快要趕快想因為兩年後那個娛樂城要完工那你只有兩年的時間要找出解方而且要完工"},{"start":12224.199,"end":12233.97,"text":"那如果沒有在那之前找到解方而且能夠工程完工的話我敢跟你保證兩年後的高鐵附近會寸步難行"},{"start":12235.566,"end":12260.164,"text":"所以拜託要跟台中市政府一起來做這件事好不好來找解方好不好我們會配合交通部一起跟台中市政府來溝通高鐵公司有高鐵公司跟地方政府溝通的問題交通部請找台中市政府好好就這個區域裡面我們能做的我們中央地方一起來做好不好接下來最後的30秒剛剛提安有提到"},{"start":12261.065,"end":12274.584,"text":"臺中軌道規劃現在有綠線、藍線藍線還要延伸到太平那我們橘線的可行也已經原則同意那我們剛剛說橘線我們希望延伸到清水市長剛剛有說"},{"start":12276.366,"end":12295.974,"text":"看起來接受到的訊息是臺中市政府願意延伸清水這一段的可行案要提出來我們中央會補助對不對那我剛剛說我們缺了一個什麼三線所以呢臺中捷運崇德豐原線進入三線三層這很重要可行性評估臺中市政府送來了嗎請問一下"},{"start":12298.732,"end":12305.357,"text":"臺鐵的山海環線剛剛我們在提案的時候次長還有局長都有說明過了我們希望能夠儘速的請交通部全力的來支持我們拚年底好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝何新淳委員"},{"start":12326.82,"end":12348.286,"text":"好,接下來邀請廖先祥委員好,謝謝昭偉,慢慢邀請我們交通部五次長請五次長鐵道局楊局長還有台鐵杜董事長杜董事長"},{"start":12361.76,"end":12368.349,"text":"一件小事先提就是我們台鐵的部分因為山頭大雨可能造成一些鐵路這個"},{"start":12370.154,"end":12371.395,"text":"吳次長,你有沒有去平溪玩過?"},{"start":12394.701,"end":12411.232,"text":"平溪我很早以前去過那你有沒有做過那件事情有有好來楊局長有沒有去平溪玩過高中的時候有沒有做過那件事情"},{"start":12413.087,"end":12425.306,"text":"當初應該是從三雕領直接往上走啦沒有我不是講那個啦我是講那個放那個東西那個沒有啊沒有啊五次黨有過嘛有兩局黨沒有嘛董事長就不要講啦這個比較敏感"},{"start":12427.455,"end":12454.849,"text":"那其實這個就是一個現況啦他可能沒有符合我們的法令的規範但他已經是我們在地的一個觀光在地文化一個很重要的一個元素那我們現況就是去法令上我們去漠視他當然在實務上我知道台鐵有去做一些安全維護的措施啦那其實針對這樣子長期來地方的觀光文化的一個衍生的在地的一個文化啦"},{"start":12455.836,"end":12474.619,"text":"我們有沒有想過要從法律面去給他做一個改善讓他能夠因為他唯有合法我們政府機關才能夠去針對他去做一些合法的安全措施無論是硬體或者是我們的人員的調配我們才依法有據那這部分不曉得我們次長怎麼看"},{"start":12476.821,"end":12491.668,"text":"從法令上來看的話剛剛提到因為大家涉及到很多管理的問題因為涉及安全的問題那這個確實可能要去深入探討因為這個地方如果這樣的開放其他可能會跟著怕因力來比照"},{"start":12492.688,"end":12516.341,"text":"那至於剛剛提到為什麼那時候會有因為那時候我的角色還不是在做不是在做鐵道的時候所以我要特別聲明一下那但是因為他這整個現在確實是現場有很多但是如果去我們去強制把他要求去做所謂的監理的部分我覺得對地方的觀光可能會造成一些是啦 它是一個現況"},{"start":12517.421,"end":12539.462,"text":"我們不負以它合法的地位但是我們也沒有想要去做強力的執法這就是現況那也導致我們沒有辦法去做更強的安全維護的措施是這樣子吧對我們也許再想看看從管理的方面看你有沒有辦法去做一些突破無論你管理怎麼樣它這個行為就是有違反現在的法令"},{"start":12540.644,"end":12557.94,"text":"所以說後續我可能也會提出一些法案的一些修法可能針對一些非電氣化路肩可能類似的情況的觀光需求的部分去法令上適度的把它放寬那同時我們也才能夠針對我們賦予他從事這些行為的時候我們去做"},{"start":12558.641,"end":12585.251,"text":"我們去做更強的一些安全回復措施我想現在其實台鐵很用心原則上那邊沒有出什麼事情都有專責人員在那邊做安全的提示但是我希望我們可以繼續這樣子下去我們也可以去做一些更好的改善好不好那另外這個有關閘門的部分請教一下現在就是有要在高雄有要做一個這個台鐵越台閘門的一個事辦計畫嗎是不是"},{"start":12588.086,"end":12599.218,"text":"有,現在大概是目前應該是這兩天岳台門的部分應該在招標,招標嘛那剛剛我的報告跟標案有一點點延誤好,我們預計在15號結標"},{"start":12602.742,"end":12619.818,"text":"那這個就是單獨一個站體的招標而已還是說有後續擴充這是一個事辦的就是單純事辦沒有後續擴充對對後續擴充要等到這個事辦這個評估完了以後才有辦法定計畫好啦因為其實我也不知道的高雄的情況"},{"start":12621.772,"end":12647.278,"text":"可能安全性怎麼樣當然我相信我們台鐵去挑他他可能會有他的特殊性啦但是如果說以講到我們臺灣我們台鐵各站的一個安全常上新聞的這個頻率啦比較常上新聞的我們汐止新北的汐歌火車站其實他還蠻常上新聞的啦就是我們無論是行走的這個通道的一個寬度還是可能拍照所引發的一個視覺的一個衝擊性啦"},{"start":12649.679,"end":12652.74,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司：完整會議"},{"start":12676.027,"end":12678.208,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全提升計畫"},{"start":12699.019,"end":12706.313,"text":"在這邊承諾我就是細刻我這段可以在將來我們臺鐵在正式咱們上路之後是一個第一波的名單裡面"},{"start":12707.676,"end":12732.487,"text":"各位委員報告細科沒有被選為示範是因為它的線型比較複雜它有彎道也有坡度那我們選擇高雄主要是因為它比較平直然後它是一個就是比較完善的這個月台的設備那包括高雄它已經是我們115公分月台高了"},{"start":12733.007,"end":12761.074,"text":"那有的車站他還沒有月台提高的話也不適合來做啦會二次施工那這個整個的這個矽科站未來要怎麼樣來設置這個月台門當然矽科站以這個安全的角度來看他應該是要排在前面那但是會不會排在第一個我是覺得應該還是要看我們事辦的一個結果來看"},{"start":12761.374,"end":12777.484,"text":"好我想因為就是我們台鐵現在有在做安全的維護了嘛那民眾或許沒有了解到剛剛董事長剛剛講的比如說這個彎道或是說斜坡的一些問題這個其實你講我當然能夠了解他或許跟一般的月台不一樣但也是因為這些問題導致了這個"},{"start":12780.965,"end":12798.974,"text":"這個車站它也有增加了一些其他的危險因子導致它更危險結果就變成說我們標準的車站能夠坐月台提升安全結果我們危險的車站因為它危險所以它不能設讓我們反而沒有來提升它的安全我想這個可能到時候民眾可能會比較沒有辦法接受這一點"},{"start":12799.854,"end":12818.725,"text":"所以說,針對一些特殊的一些車站還是要麻煩我們台鐵公司針對後續我們的安全來做一些相對應的一些作為好不好,再麻煩我們的台鐵公司也麻煩我們交通部能夠幫忙協助請定以上,謝謝好,謝謝委員好,謝謝廖先祥委員接下來邀請黃建平委員"},{"start":12836.329,"end":12843.973,"text":"主席我們請次長跟我們的鐵路局督董事長請吳次長還有杜威董事長委員好次長好、董事長好"},{"start":12856.328,"end":12880.347,"text":"零四零三地震之後整個蘇花公路我們北緯鐵路常常因為好大雨就中斷那現在只要禁忌要落後啦落後蘇花跟北緯就會預防性關閉那這個對於我們台東花蓮的交通嚴重的衝擊那台東的鄉親不然是他在說是不是我們災後我們可以透過努力趕快來振興這個交通觀光"},{"start":12881.408,"end":12901.264,"text":"就沒有想到10月份就來個山坨的颱風而且市長這次重創的地方是在臺東的南部南迴地區是這相信市長這邊應該有收到相關的訊息那我想太馬里車站還一度被土石油淹沒那南迴公路都中斷那整個交通停擺那其實在這個過程裡面"},{"start":12902.225,"end":12912.245,"text":"我們並沒有看到總統、行政院長或副院長到臺東來勘災那不知道是臺東的山太高還是人太少我們在鄉親都這樣說是因為我們的牆壁比較小所以都沒人重視"},{"start":12914.775,"end":12937.573,"text":"那我想接下來我們跟交通部討論議題很多那未來很多事情在國會電檔上我們認為公開透明的來交換意見會比私下、私底下的私鄉收受會來得好市長那這樣只要為了台東好哪怕是一百個便當會本席都願意來參加我們也希望中央可以多多組合給我們台東我相信交通部應該不會反對吧不會不會反對"},{"start":12939.914,"end":12963.641,"text":"本席在這邊也提出幾點來跟交通部這邊來討論來希望全力來協助台東那第一個就是說29年沒有漲價的台鐵那台鐵董事會討論票價調漲那據聞會按照整個投資報酬率來做3到5%的這個調整那從台北到高雄以台北到高雄來看這個票價大概是現在全票是843那未來可能就會破千"},{"start":12964.321,"end":12965.241,"text":"臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫"},{"start":12989.713,"end":12990.213,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13011.752,"end":13029.341,"text":"也要特別提到就是說如果因為北迴線中斷常常會造成兩個情況一個就是臺北往臺東的旅客卡在中間臺東往臺北的旅客卡在花蓮叫天天不應叫地地不靈你向南向北都不是"},{"start":13031.65,"end":13051.349,"text":"不知道是不是都沒有聽到這個聲音說需要立委來反映或是民眾來強烈抗議之後才會有因應措施那這個部分本席要求未來如果這個台鐵有突發性的狀況沒有辦法正常營運的時候交通部應該立即啟動緊急的調度像是飛機的部分或者是火車、公車透過南迴這一段來"},{"start":13054.211,"end":13074.529,"text":"輸導那讓我們的整個運作可以讓整個交通能夠更順暢這個部分是不是市長你是不是同意是是同意齁我想說明一下齁如果以台東來講他現在目前還有班機在飛啦齁那到時候我們看他的情況如果中斷北回中斷的時候他往北的部分我想我們看班機的情況我們來協調那個這個航空公司來加班機"},{"start":13075.39,"end":13100.99,"text":"第二個往南的部分繼續往高雄的部分這個公路的部分大概我們的公路局我想這個都可以來配合沒問題包括鐵路可以到這邊像上次我們甚至也協調高鐵公司我們在最後一班車後面的就是最後的那一班車再往後延時間能夠把這個台鐵的部分銜接上讓它安全回到這個臺北北部中部這樣子"},{"start":13101.69,"end":13118.786,"text":"市長在提醒花東只有一條鐵公路、台九線跟火車只要一段有中段就只能走另外一段那這個其實對花東來講是非常非常不公平那另外也再次來講一下這次災後整個"},{"start":13121.548,"end":13147.619,"text":"臺東的災禍我們看在之後大概經費會高達5億以上那這邊也要請交通部這邊來協助那這張照片給市長跟董事長看到這是我們在會館的時候看到的土石流衝到民宅的這個照片那甚至有一段是在這個太馬里南北坑他剛好是在橋墩這個照片那邊他整個橋墩裸露那民眾非常的擔心非常擔心"},{"start":13149,"end":13162.772,"text":"本席要針對這個部分要求交通部跟台鐵做兩點第一個就是針對台馬里南北坑這個鐵橋下方的這個土石流失情況立即來做安全性的評估然後來報告然後並啟動整個"},{"start":13164.013,"end":13167.196,"text":"臺東縣的財政情況並不是這麼的充裕,要給予我們全力的經費的資源。以上兩點,請問交通部是不是能夠做得到?"},{"start":13185.1,"end":13205.453,"text":"這個應該可以如果剛提到說鐵路橋那邊土石有流失的時候我們可以派人去看一下了解到底他的情況是怎麼樣因為其實一個橋墩底下他還有一些基狀在是當然去看啦我們我想這個安全是最重要的這部分我們一定可以來配合沒問題是齁其實經費部分"},{"start":13206.113,"end":13206.674,"text":"接下來邀請鄭天才委員"},{"start":13242.962,"end":13245.144,"text":"主席、各位委員有請次長、還有鐵道局局長、還有董事長、還有杜威董事長"},{"start":13260.137,"end":13286.617,"text":"這個 次長好委員好你是鐵路的工程的專業不敢這個我們回想這個北回鐵路民國69年開通到現在就是今年因為04、03的大地震當天都還OK喔從民國69年一直到"},{"start":13287.728,"end":13316.093,"text":"零四零三大地震檢視之後都沒有問題是因為後面的颱風加上大概幾百次了幾百次的移震才造成現在的北迴鐵路河仁道崇德這一段所以這個部分就"},{"start":13317.117,"end":13342.888,"text":"鐵路的一個專業來講怎麼樣去解決這是一個我們等一下要去探討的部分我們先談這個國家鐵路安全計畫當然我們當初這個鐵路警交通部在測定的時候普悠瑪號、泰路格號這些問題所以希望旅客臨時"},{"start":13344.751,"end":13367.025,"text":"為安全政策的一個方針所以這個部分到底從這個開始執行到現在有沒有達成旅客臨死亡目前從111年來講旅客臨死亡的部分現在是有達成好我們繼續來努力我們現在接下來還是"},{"start":13369.508,"end":13394.642,"text":"相關的這些你們都會去因應這個我就不多談了因為時間的關係我們看這個剛才講的北回鐵路從德到何人當然公路的部分是一件事情這個蘇花安要趕快蘇花安要趕快這個就在蘇花安的範圍那鐵路的部分"},{"start":13397.06,"end":13420.514,"text":"氣候變遷加上相關的這些地震的影響、颱風的影響造成這樣的一個情形所以就這個次長包括鐵道局不能把這個責任全部放在台鐵"},{"start":13423.339,"end":13451.218,"text":"我看這個報告啊今天的報告基本上都台鐵的鐵道局成立啊要肩負鐵道局的責任啊所以這個部分怎麼樣既然有多了一個鐵道局過去沒有啊北匯鐵路時代南匯鐵路時代沒有啊所以怎麼樣去強化去因應我看你們的那個"},{"start":13452.441,"end":13476.721,"text":"報告裡面這都不是一個當然這都是現階段要做的啦現階段要做的怎麼樣去做一個長期的這裡面有提到長期的方案一定要推出來這個部分絕對是要交通部、鐵道局"},{"start":13478.052,"end":13504.489,"text":"共同的跟臺鐵公司共同去推動所以這個部份這個次長要不要說明一下是謝謝謝謝委員的一個提醒我想剛講的鐵道局的部份其實他也目前扮演這個很重要的角色譬如說他最近應該算是前年就引進所謂的檢查員的部份檢查員的部份以後他針對臺鐵到現場"},{"start":13508.24,"end":13527.397,"text":"更頻密增加、深度增加的一個情況去檢查他到底一些程序有沒有落實已經檢查很多次了那有發現一些問題那些問題一樣是把他列管來做我想這個只是在這我們之前的報告沒有把他顯示出來而已其實他們也做了蠻多事情的"},{"start":13528.098,"end":13550.47,"text":"那至於剛講從何人從的中間這個問題從上次零四零三之前大概都沒什麼問題但是從那次以後大地震以後包括後面剛提到一百多次的遺症造成整個土壤都已經鬆動所以只要一下雨就會下來那剛提到我們大概擬定幾個方案第一個當然就是短期現在麻將要做的"},{"start":13551.05,"end":13569.558,"text":"我可能去做一些輕鬆的一些動作那另外一個我們也跟導入所謂的流域管理的這樣的概念我們跟上游的農村水保署還有林業署以及公務局我們做一個區域聯防因為他那邊"},{"start":13570.898,"end":13598.143,"text":"臺鐵算是最下游上一部分也有問題然後我們這邊就可以及早知道那另外利用這個氣象署的QPES Plus這個部分來進行雨量的可能會對氣候的問題來做一個預測我想這部分這個都是我們要去做的那另外還有提到所謂的長期的部分和平到衝突這我們現在目前在進行改憲的一個評估因為確實那邊"},{"start":13600.643,"end":13616.955,"text":"因為既有的隧道已經有那中間又有幾個像那個和人站那些如果說改線就會牽涉到這和人站到底要怎麼處理的問題我想這部分我們大概預計在年底或一個初步的評估的報告出來"},{"start":13617.495,"end":13641.637,"text":"那如果後面我想順利後我們後面就開始要做進行可行性的這個規劃一直往下希望能得到一個算是比較長久的一個改善的一個方案一定要徹底提出長期就如同北回鐵路我剛剛講的民國69年到今年"},{"start":13643.732,"end":13644.072,"text":"接下來邀請羅志強委員"},{"start":13673.294,"end":13677.479,"text":"請五次長還有我們杜董事長請五次長還有杜董事長"},{"start":13683.211,"end":13711.07,"text":"次長好委員好審計部報告指出臺鐵去年霧點次數超過143萬次發生率達20%那我有看到總質詢的時候部長回應吳宗憲委員說要求像臺鐵像高鐵那樣精準這才是大家想要的目標那我想請教一下次長臺鐵的準點率是多少"},{"start":13712.803,"end":13726.247,"text":"現在因為如果扣除因為今年的天災比較多所以北緯那邊常常因為臺鐵我講的是那個高鐵高鐵準點率多少高鐵應該有9999.58那平均延誤時間大概是0.19分鐘那我想請教一下次長跟董事長你們有信心臺鐵做得到99.58然後平均延誤時間0.19分鐘嗎"},{"start":13740.875,"end":13762.376,"text":"跟委員報告按照現在我們不理定的這個準點率的一個規定的話我們自己台鐵公司的目標99%我們是定在再過8年再過8年因為這的確需要那我想請教一下那明年的目標是多少"},{"start":13763.086,"end":13768.007,"text":"明年是97.597.5謝謝你那按照鐵字節統計其實你們的準點率也都超過90%嘛對不對去年是到95.98%嘛對不對那請問部長為什麼你知道你們準點率可以超過95%嗎"},{"start":13783.885,"end":13799.64,"text":"我這樣講因為你們的霧點計算是看結果不看過程所以是到達終點暫時霧點在5分鐘內就算準點那如果中間的霧點平平記錄上這裡是一般不算霧點的準點列車對不對"},{"start":13801.461,"end":13822.53,"text":"目前是這樣就起點跟終點那絕大多數其實不是搭乘全程的乘客事實上如果是中間被吃掉時間都變成了黑數所以他就出現一個很弔詭的現象就是臺鐵這個民眾覺得整天都在誤點但是臺鐵自己覺得沒有誤點"},{"start":13823.57,"end":13846.004,"text":"那當然我也必須講啦高鐵是用相同的統計標準但高鐵你就看到到99.58就要說精準率就非常非常高所以如果你們要用同樣的這一套標準的話那也希望你就是真的做到跟高鐵一樣這是部長給台鐵的期待啦當然有難度但是請往這個方向努力去做可以嗎"},{"start":13847.271,"end":13866.56,"text":"這是我們努力的目標另外次長今天來報告鐵道安全我有看報告內容當中沒有針對台鐵能力不足的問題檢討你覺得台鐵的能力問題對我們目前鐵路安全的影響是什麼"},{"start":13868.085,"end":13888.443,"text":"我想跟委員報告臺鐵其實在上半年已經有禁用到872個的量子啦下半年預計還要再722個這樣就補充進來大概1000多個我先這樣說啦那事實上我們看到幾個狀況比如說臺鐵新志強6月北上行經花蓮秀嶺"},{"start":13889.504,"end":13909.237,"text":"土石流導致列車出軌監視器在事故前就拍到土石流堵住隧道口卻因為值班人員去上廁所未注意到臺鐵產業工會就說其實這有人力不足的問題東部的公務段人員也說東部幹線一段再段人力荒導致修復速度趕不上損壞速度"},{"start":13910.658,"end":13936.979,"text":"那另外省紀部也在這個臺鐵安全改革執行請示裡面提到就是說臺鐵公司化後面臨了2000多名人力缺口但112年鐵路特考預計招考993人錄取887人實際報告數731人有156人錄取未報到所以也顯現出外部人對臺鐵展望欣欣不足這個部分還希望我們再繼續努力好不好是好以上謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":13939.994,"end":13943.899,"text":"好謝謝羅志強委員那接下來邀請陳官廷委員那主席麻煩請次長請吳次長"},{"start":13964.828,"end":13990.363,"text":"市長好市長在我們嘉義縣有一個非常重要的一個交通的基礎建設就是民修鐵路高架化那它全長是8.92公里那總經費是173億左右的這個工程它未來會拆除三座路橋五處平交道跟一處地下道也就是說它是可以縫合都市促進都市發展改善我們交通跟優化環境的大好機會那我們辦公室上週詢問已經得到說鐵道局已經在9月13號"},{"start":13991.744,"end":14016.305,"text":"提報經費審議報告到交通部去審查那是不是可以承諾加速這一個部內的經費審查的進度但我擔心說明年5月臨時軌的這一個工程開工到12月的主體開工工程可能會有所延遲各位報告我想行政程序的加速這個絕對沒有問題那至於我想我們明年會把握住明年5月臨時軌的開工還有年底的主體"},{"start":14017.146,"end":14017.847,"text":"臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫"},{"start":14033.24,"end":14056.819,"text":"那除了這個這個進度因為我們其實不僅是在嘉義有類似這樣子的基礎建設臺中也有那臺中的這個鐵路高架後橋下的空間有很長的一段時間他的鐵就是鐵尾巴基本上是沒有妥善的去利用所以說這個可能會造成第一個就是資源浪費事容不佳等等的是不是可以協調確保這樣的狀況不會再發生到民雄"},{"start":14060.842,"end":14061.963,"text":"有沒有考量說在設置停車空間"},{"start":14088.863,"end":14113.2,"text":"那我一直強調停車空間其實我們上次有去會堪那跟這個交通部的都共同去會堪那有聽說共同會會考慮商店、文化設施或者是立美化但是現在我們對於停車空間是有很多地方鄉親在討論因為第一個就是航太園區已經要到時候完成之後會帶來新的人潮比如說到時候進入市區的話它會沒有足夠的空間是不是可以麻煩一併考慮"},{"start":14113.78,"end":14115.362,"text":"市長這個部分就是縣市政府跟中央政府還是希望說中央政府也可以帶領一種領導的這種"},{"start":14131.46,"end":14134.044,"text":"請問行駛於高速道路上的超車道是哪一道?"},{"start":14150.165,"end":14174.802,"text":"就是最內側啦就是最內側可是現在最內側上面是梅山欸那所以說如果是要開往梅山的駕駛人會不會因為車道標示的方式因此開在最內的超車道造成動線堵塞甚至因此受罰但是他這個設計應該主要是說你先會譬如說這邊會先那個中埔會先到再來才是竹崎再來才是梅山所以一般他會慢慢的引導"},{"start":14176.903,"end":14202.045,"text":"市長謝謝我們是在假設說這樣子的引導方式是有用但是我們聽到很多不同的民眾來說常常會因為這樣子的車道而導致有點混淆就是怕說他們因為在其他國家的話通常就是一個車牌上面就會有相應的這樣的車道的標示所以我是希望還是有相關的改良在視覺設計上面那我再補充一個齁"},{"start":14203.786,"end":14223.339,"text":"這一個我們國道3號在我們嘉義的這個標示裡面有獨落我們阿里山的入口翻入鄉這個部分那現在在我們嘉義縣有四個交流道分別是梅山竹崎、中埔跟水上那我們訴求其實包含最近我們有重大的包含茶博會、柿子節都是在此區域"},{"start":14224.119,"end":14242.845,"text":"所以我們想說是不是可以在國道3號這幾個縣市的交流道徵射翻路的告示牌指引因為它未來這個翻路廂它不是只有一些重要的一些重要的慶典它可能都會在這個地方可是對於外地來的話我們是希望有徵射這樣視覺相關的指引那才會有與以來幫助"},{"start":14244.085,"end":14263.774,"text":"那其實像查柏惠是在中埔鄉可是未來他也有可能會在其他的鄉鎮像是我們的這個販路鄉都是有可能的那隨著這個人次的增加我們這一次像40節還有什麼等等的綜合活動其實是有需要做這些標示的改善所以如同我剛才提到的從這一個內設車道跟這一個超車道"},{"start":14266.175,"end":14266.475,"text":"陳冠廷委員翁曉庭委員"},{"start":14291.977,"end":14298.583,"text":"老師主席好,然後這裡有請次長還有鐵道局的楊局長以及台鐵的董事長"},{"start":14309.867,"end":14331.056,"text":"委員好市長好還有董事長、局長好我想這次這個交通委員會來召開臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫專題報告我覺得非常有意義本席非常重視就是鐵路安全的問題不管是高鐵還是台鐵都是如此那我們看一下那當然就是在"},{"start":14332.617,"end":14342.824,"text":"我們在探討就是安全的同時其實本市也很在乎在安全的基礎上我們應該要能夠做到就鐵路的準時不誤點"},{"start":14345.571,"end":14347.913,"text":"在審計部總決算報告當中有提出2023年臺鐵的霧點次數超過143萬次發生率高達20%尤其在台北、南港板橋、沙崙等車站發生霧點率更高"},{"start":14369.605,"end":14389.645,"text":"那麼這個我們新引進的這個EMU的3000型自強號也是經常發生霧點那霧點率更是高達50%那麼如果說我們來看看我們所要效法的這個日本這個國家那麼他們日本的火車平均的霧點時間是小於一分鐘的"},{"start":14390.625,"end":14391.846,"text":"請問就是你們有沒有什麼一個解決的方案對於霧點"},{"start":14420.121,"end":14446.97,"text":"我會改善誤點的情況誤點我想大概主要是第一個就是我們設備的妥善率剛剛提到我們過去我發現大概車輛比較老舊所以我們那時候老舊比較多大概就是舊的直強號還有局官號的部分那現在我們引進了E500的部分這個汽車頭以後我相信這個所以誤點是跟機器老舊設備老舊有關嗎其中其中一個部分而已我想其實"},{"start":14448.47,"end":14458.294,"text":"這個應該不見得是跟火車設備老舊有關這個整個人員的管理然後車子安排等等這些都是息息相關的本身希望說能夠正視這個問題否則的話我們其實很難跟其他的國家觀光客說我們的鐵路是準時的"},{"start":14467.278,"end":14468.819,"text":"下一頁接下來我們要講的就是說因為我們的火車霧點情況很嚴重可是對於霧點的補償和賠償的部分本席認為其實交通部應該還有鐵路局應該要來"},{"start":14483.566,"end":14505.934,"text":"檢討相關的補償的措施是不是要再改進啊那依照你們的晚點賠償規約裡面若是可規則於臺鐵的事故的話達45分鐘以上那麼才可以申請全額退費或者是可以免費搭乘若是不可規則的話則是要兩個小時以上那麼如果好來再下一頁那麼所以呢本席是認為說其實剛剛我們看到的那個強化"},{"start":14510.74,"end":14515.964,"text":"有關於賠償的這個措施其實蠻老舊的105年當時訂的其實是不是應該檢討一下未來呢應該要再縮短那個誤點的時間譬如說超過25分鐘30分鐘就應該要賠償了啦不可以說是這個延長這麼長的時間我覺得這是不合理的所以如果從強化乘客的權利保障來講的話那本席建議說你們可以去研議是不是除了退費和"},{"start":14537.938,"end":14540.94,"text":"免費搭乘之外對於車次誤點的賠償跟補償或許我們可以採取一個定額的賠償的方式而這可以更有效的去強化乘客的權利"},{"start":14550.02,"end":14550.44,"text":"另外還有一個問題就是對於開放站票"},{"start":14572.596,"end":14595.655,"text":"其實運安會他們在兩年前當時針對太魯閣事故的調查發現有發現就是站票的罹難的乘客的死亡率是高於坐票的死亡率的差不多有7倍之高那麼所以呢我這裡也希望就是臺鐵還有鐵路局這邊交通部是不是也可以去研議有關於站票的這個"},{"start":14598.117,"end":14614.95,"text":"這個措施我們如果說同意可以開放站票那麼對於站票乘客的生命安全我們也是要顧到有沒有可能就是去規劃一個適當的站票的站立區或者是說也可以設置一些安全的保護措施"},{"start":14616.151,"end":14632.006,"text":"本期認為說這個是有必要的畢竟就是大家就是要考慮到運輸的便利性跟安全性要同時兼顧不能夠偏廢如果說只考慮到乘客的運輸的便利性可是卻忽略了安全性這是非常"},{"start":14632.887,"end":14633.788,"text":"這是不是可以請你們可以在這個兩個月內給本席一個你們的研議報告"},{"start":14648.964,"end":14674.702,"text":"這可以 不過要跟委員報告一下就是有關於站票的限制除了除了這個運人以外他也是關於我們車上坐在位子上旅客的食物的感受度所以目前台鐵公司呢我們是普悠瑪、太魯閣還有我們新型的EMU3000因為他的運人是夠的"},{"start":14675.643,"end":14691.081,"text":"所以我們目前都沒有考慮說要開放站票不過這個委員剛剛的交代我們會來做討論好的希望你們能夠演繹謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝翁小林委員接下來邀請黃國昌委員"},{"start":14702.324,"end":14710.757,"text":"謝謝主席﹖有請台鐵的董事長和運輸安貴的主委請杜薇董事長還有我們運輸安貴林主委"},{"start":14719.011,"end":14742.581,"text":"委員好 兩位好 時間的關係喔 直接切入這題喔2020年4月10號因為屏山巷的事件 屏交道的這段季 它沒有放水瓶結果沒有訊號給司機 沒有任何預警的作用結果造成了三節車廂出軌 直接撞上去 司機乘客四個人受傷為了處理這個問題"},{"start":14745.925,"end":14752.636,"text":"運安會做了一個調查報告這個調查報告是2021年運安會屏山巷交通事故調查報告"},{"start":14753.939,"end":14771.802,"text":"因為這個調查報告出來我們本來的平交道遮斷器沒有辦法發揮通知有障礙物入侵沒有放平所以我們台鐵開標採購遮斷器1424套目前這1424套耗費將近5億元目前裝設的進度如何"},{"start":14782.664,"end":14801.449,"text":"目前我們裝上去大概近400到392392嗎那按照本來應該什麼時候要裝設完成我們整個合約的規定應該是到明年的6月底裝設的完嗎目前的進度有沒有delay"},{"start":14802.029,"end":14825.491,"text":"目前的進度有delaydelay多久大概delay差不多有半年左右你再回去算一下啦,超過一年了啦我都幫你算完了delay是一回事啦現在更嚴重的事情是什麼現在更嚴重的事情是沒有達到水平定位的時候"},{"start":14826.938,"end":14851.004,"text":"現在已經裝好的故障連連根本沒有辦法發揮警告的訊號給司機在目前已經裝好的情況之下以彰化跟花蓮來講我們回去看最先完成的是花蓮花蓮250套都裝完了然後彰化要裝650套現在只裝了102套就花蓮的部分"},{"start":14855.56,"end":14871.792,"text":"故障連連目前出院過了沒有報告還沒有目前出院還沒有過我們這個跟驗收比較沒有關係就我們裝上去的時候我們會讓他有一個充分的測試因為上去就要開始使用目前裝好的部分你沒有辦法發揮這個預警的功能很危險等於是當初運安會所指責的"},{"start":14885.062,"end":14908.796,"text":"當這個平交道如果有車子卡著他沒有放下來結果竟然沒有訊號給司機員這真的是一件很危險的事情但我關心的事情是什麼花蓮、彰化現在裝設的352套發生了上百次的異常發生了上百次的異常以後大家就會很關心"},{"start":14910.477,"end":14931.047,"text":"說開什麼玩笑我們花了這麼多錢裝了這個東西結果沒有辦法發揮啊他應該有的功能現在到底啊該怎麼辦我為什麼說啊現在到底啊應該啊要怎麼辦來看一下我們看啊你們這個遮斷器施工進度檢討會議紀錄啊現在彰化600多要裝100才裝100多嘛"},{"start":14938.219,"end":14965.756,"text":"要繼續裝駕駛的時候啊彰化電誤斷了說他們不想換啊太爛了太爛了彰化那邊的鄉親啊現在嚇得不得了啊看到花蓮的情況花蓮穿了250套現在出業的沒過故障連連到底可不可以發揮啊一開始花這麼多錢要保護安全這樣子啊的目的"},{"start":14967.101,"end":14982.099,"text":"針對目前現在這個平交道的遮斷器第一個嚴重的delaydelay過delay連裝好的部分有沒有辦法保障安全才是大家最關心的事嘛否則的話不會連台鐵自己髒化"},{"start":14983.639,"end":15003.006,"text":"電路段的同仁都不想換這個部分董事長有沒有掌握有 有部分掌握不過剛剛委員提告訴我的這早上10點記者會我才說有聽到說有104那個經理部門是沒有跟我報那麼細那這個我會後我會趕快去了解"},{"start":15004.236,"end":15022.908,"text":"經理部門沒有跟你報這麼細喔對但是對整體來講的這個整個我們這段機的進度是有都有跟我做匯報第一個啦delay歸delay啦第二個是什麼為什麼會delay你前面在裝的部分驗來驗去喔來來來"},{"start":15025.407,"end":15050.812,"text":"我給董事長看一下你們施工進度檢討會議我們去要到資料了以後我們的同仁啊是一個一個核對啊一個一個核對啊現在花蓮出現了那麼嚴重的狀況所謂花蓮出現了那麼嚴重的狀況是今年1月有發生一次小客車又撞到那個平交道的桿子結果真的沒有響"},{"start":15052.185,"end":15075.712,"text":"這件事情董事長知道嗎這個事情我了解2024年1月14號我了解我了解因為這個事情所以又停工47天嘛那為什麼特別這件事情要挑出來講因為這個攸關每一個各平交道人車的安全也攸關我們每一個"},{"start":15077.288,"end":15103.037,"text":"鐵路行駛在軌道上面列車司機員跟乘客的安全所以絕對不能等閒視之今天我們花了5億元找了一家廠商不斷的故障不斷的遲延甚至花蓮裝完了今年1月有問題搞到現在在彰化段彰化段他們說如果一個平交道有3個以上的遮斷器他們不願意再繼續裝為什麼不願意再繼續裝有裝跟沒有裝一樣"},{"start":15106.533,"end":15129.054,"text":"沒有辦法發揮這個運警的功能繼續裝要做什麼但說出了事誰要負責運安會來請教一下運安會的主委因為當初的事故調查報告是你們做的嘛要求要這樣的改善也是運安會說的嘛那台鐵才編了預算做這件事嘛今天我講的內容運安會有沒有掌握"},{"start":15130.209,"end":15158.988,"text":"運安會在今年 每半年我們都會就會檢討那個安全感染性的列管他這個有關平台安全回復到現在還是在列管到現在還是在列管嘛對我請運安會跟台鐵這邊攜手合作啦是這樣下去喔 絕對不是辦法因為我真的不希望哪一天出了意外了以後不管是在花蓮還是在彰化因為現在裝作都有就是花蓮跟彰化嘛"},{"start":15160.249,"end":15173.043,"text":"爛到彰化那邊的人都不想裝啦下一次如果有事故再出現在花蓮或者是在彰化造成無辜的民眾的死傷的話這個責任非常非常的重啊"},{"start":15174.416,"end":15193.263,"text":"針對這件事情到底要怎麼處理主席站起來了我最後只有一個要求是不是可以請董事長是不是可以請董事長回去研議了以後這件事情到底要怎麼解決給所有交通委員會的委員還有我一份書面報告這樣可以嗎是可以需要多久我們兩週內好嗎兩週內好可以謝謝"},{"start":15196.923,"end":15198.124,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請伍次長跟台鐵董事長請伍次長還有杜威董事長"},{"start":15230.114,"end":15243.074,"text":"來 市長好市長知不知道工程會來盤點我們中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的這個預算來講最後一名是哪一個部會"},{"start":15245.489,"end":15246.509,"text":"臺鐵68個站的耗資系統更新那當時2021年被"},{"start":15273.458,"end":15293.505,"text":"說叫做世紀大標案那時候可能也有很多的一個狀態就是說有6家廠商然後得標然後那時候有開標、招標、延宕等等的部分那不管2021年的一個事情嘛但到現在我想請教次長知不知道說這樣的一個標案現在延宕了多久"},{"start":15295.324,"end":15309.696,"text":"我知道這個是跟應該是西門子公司那原本預計什麼時候這一個整個標案會完成?不清楚"},{"start":15314.451,"end":15338.86,"text":"115那現在要延到118115延到118已經預計延宕兩年了會不會在118如期如始完成不一定但是現在已經延宕兩年了所以才會本席開宗明義先講工程會在今年五月的時候發函給各部會其中給交通部就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%"},{"start":15342.941,"end":15370.698,"text":"那我想請教到目前為止臺鐵董事長知道這個案件我們事工單位是不是我們的公務人員也跟你報告說為什麼會延宕那麼久很多原因嘛 什麼樣的原因大致上的原因就是疫情還有就是我們的這個得標的製造商西門子他對於這個整個合約的執行他有他一些跟我們不同的看法"},{"start":15371.078,"end":15387.029,"text":"不同的看法對對就是我們是甲方他是乙方他有什麼不同看法那甲方要求他要做當時也應該我們的規格標案等等的設計出來乙方就要執行啊是那因為他的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年"},{"start":15388.53,"end":15416.335,"text":"這跟委員報告這兩年不是只有這一個不過剛剛講的這個西門子跟我們的這個履約的情形基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神但是他有另外一種看法就是他是同胞的他認為同胞應該是中間有一些可以調整那這個這裡面的項目我這邊就不贅述但是我們現在正在積極的跟他協調"},{"start":15417.455,"end":15424.581,"text":"主要是廠商的問題佔大部分施工能力不足他自己承攬了之後他的施工能力其實是不足的所以說造成是說對於我們這邊沒有辦法有一個足夠的一個推進再來設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良"},{"start":15447.128,"end":15471.623,"text":"以方的人已經得到我們的標然後結果他的設計團隊在西班牙然後居然我們要要求他來做這樣子整個號誌的一個串聯他沒有辦法溝通然後還有第三點他台籍團隊跟西班牙的管理人員內部還有溝通問題以及第四點團隊是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗"},{"start":15474.705,"end":15501.145,"text":"事情大了我覺得這件事情在81億的耗資整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統並且希望提高可靠度、安全度在2021年的時候做這個標案那時候6家來去標因為是外商大家都來標結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告到最後招標日期一延再延引發異議"},{"start":15502.762,"end":15521.477,"text":"到最後這一家廠商得標我們都不講說內部有沒有像什麼樣的一個狀況可是沒想到六家廠商照理講選出一家應該是我們認為說最合理最可靠的廠商結果兩年多過去了執行反而這家廠商是有長期溝通不良內部溝通問題還有原來他的"},{"start":15525.319,"end":15533.943,"text":"團隊是捷運系統經驗者跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣那當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商?這跟委員報告齁這一個案子當初在這個就是投標齁投標的過程齁是我有看過那投資一半我現在在請教啦投資一半"},{"start":15555.685,"end":15561.849,"text":"能不能完成在2029年還有5年的時間如果說這個團隊持續這樣子我不知道算不算擺爛但是看得出來我們台鐵內部的同仁也覺得說這廠商問題很大"},{"start":15576.206,"end":15594.925,"text":"那還有市長我都不好意思講這有沒有陣風相關要調查不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標我們也期待國人應該把錢花在刀口上也期待說找到一個好的廠商但結果千挑萬選選到一家這家廠商結果他原來是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗"},{"start":15597.447,"end":15625.811,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,裡面講的這些問題齁,其實像剛剛講的他的團隊齁,現在他應該有做一些改組,我瞭解有做一些改組,也就是說西班牙這個的設計團隊現在已經不要他做了,那找比較熟悉的比較好溝通,目前應該走朝正面的方向在走。那現在就是穿著西裝改積裝嗎?對,是台鐵工程是比較沒那麼容易,對。"},{"start":15627.711,"end":15649.701,"text":"市長我想我還是希望是說這個計畫當初大家都講到世紀大標案就是因為台鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億然後全台灣的號誌要做一個改變如果說能夠改變能夠一體當然好但現在重點在於是說過了兩三年之後看到這樣的一些問題而延宕了兩年來我們再看下一張喔我就一併講這個是在我們這個"},{"start":15660.983,"end":15684.068,"text":"應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫交通部洋洋灑灑計畫執行率其中裡面很多計畫你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫執行率差了12%你看延伸相關的一些計畫執行率都是有差2、30%甚至還有"},{"start":15686.138,"end":15711.688,"text":"你看最後新車安全平等精進計畫應該現在預計執行率50%結果是0%執行我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行錢到位了要人給人要錢給錢要台鐵從局變成公司也變了招牌也掛了"},{"start":15713.032,"end":15736.038,"text":"但是該做的事情要拿出來要做安全要精進那還有剛剛的80億的這個標案本席會持續的來關心已經延宕了兩年還有裡面有沒有人謀不章的部分該啟動調查請也啟動調查那次長你剛剛也講了有滾動檢討是不是是不是可以在這個禮拜"},{"start":15737.672,"end":15762.52,"text":"給本席一份資料針對這一個部分現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候2028年之前你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去能夠確保2028年、2029年能夠完成是不是可以兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜可以但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題那如果說最嚴重的話廠商"},{"start":15763.769,"end":15774.215,"text":"我們除了罰款除了他如果說一直不配合我不知道看起來他是溝通不良他明明是乙方但怎麼那麼囂張還在西班牙團隊還要逼我們去換設計團隊"},{"start":15776.192,"end":15794.369,"text":"真的感覺很奇怪我想這個跟委員報告現在臺鐵為了這個他成立一個PMO的一個小組由總經理我印象中是兩個禮拜就開始會那我想後續這部分我想會再督促臺鐵能夠再加速我了解啊但是81億人民的納稅錢"},{"start":15797.933,"end":15798.834,"text":"接下來邀請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":15823.626,"end":15825.888,"text":"謝謝主席,楊瓊瑩發言,想邀請次長。請五次長。"},{"start":15836.572,"end":15836.872,"text":"臺中山海環線"},{"start":15866.572,"end":15885.869,"text":"之前為了一些預算要怎麼樣去分所以卡關了當然我們臺中市政府也提出了非常大的善意盧市長我們的目標共同目標也就是希望趕快拍板定案那終於在這個1月份的時候由行政院指示"},{"start":15886.65,"end":15900.928,"text":"指示交通部告訴我們地方說必須要將這個案子分為三個指向那在2月份的時候我們也一直積極趕快送上來到目前為止這三個指向第一個大慶烏日段"},{"start":15902.09,"end":15905.572,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份"},{"start":15923.021,"end":15945.048,"text":"因為唯一加上的假後線的鐵路如果這一段加上來就真的是整個山海環線才是真正的到位所以我也感謝我們新增的這個努力所成的假後線的鐵路我們總共是14.3公里那麼高架的車站也增加三個位置換句話說整個假後線串聯起來才是真正的才叫做山海環線"},{"start":15952.89,"end":15981.264,"text":"那所以本席要請教到目前為止我們是在這個三個指向當中三個指向當中包括了大慶烏日段以及這個海線的這個雙軌及高降化的這個部分呢那麼現在由我們台中市政府做最後的修正那這個進度是如此所以我們如果送上來的時候就請交通部要趕快協助讓行政院來拍本定案"},{"start":15981.744,"end":16000.396,"text":"那在這個三項指向當中,假後段的部分現在進程如何呢?請做說明假後段應該還沒有送上來才對,還在台中市政府我們都已經送上來,為什麼還沒送上來?怎麼差這麼大?怎麼會差這麼大呢?怎麼會差這麼大?在113年的對不對?2月23號裡面都已經三個項目已經送上來了假後線"},{"start":16011.4,"end":16017.438,"text":"甲厚縣總共14.3公里高架車站新增3個車站碼本校請問進度如何"},{"start":16019.273,"end":16047.792,"text":"跟委員報告那當初其實本來整個是一個計畫後來拆分成三個計畫那其中山縣跟海縣的部分交通部審查委員會是已經通過你是在3月29號來轉成行政院來審議那現在就是行政院還有一些意見你行政院6月27號下來給我們我們非常臺中市政府團隊非常積極我們最後趕快修正完依照你們所指示的趕快修正"},{"start":16048.092,"end":16076.794,"text":"修正完之後我們會趕快再轉報到行政院那甲後線的部分在部裡面其實是還沒有共識我想這一部分我們後續會再來跟台中市政府這邊來討論嘿!潘朵拉先開欸怎麼會如此呢?什麼部裡面還沒有共識?怎麼會如此?山線跟海線的部分過去交通部的審查委員會是已經審查同意那甲後線的部分是還沒有通過相關的審查程序"},{"start":16077.254,"end":16077.274,"text":"市長"},{"start":16105.52,"end":16114.766,"text":"14.3公里預算351.14億啊預算長度工程長度都出來了啊所以本期要問你啊進度到底是怎麼樣啊你的框架已經出來你今天告訴我你們還沒有共識怎麼可以這樣欺騙我們台中人啊"},{"start":16133.575,"end":16162.298,"text":"不是我跟委員報告齁應該本來這是一個計畫現在變成三線海線還有甲二線甲二線是這三個都混搭開對變成三個指向現在這兩個三線海線大家比較有共識嘛所以現在請那個他不是共識他是繼承政策什麼叫做共識因為自從對那個經費上大家有比較大的歧見那個是執行細節次長請你搞清楚好不好"},{"start":16163.55,"end":16169.555,"text":"你交通部是政策耶我連長度都告訴你14.3公里耶三座高架的車站耶總經費351.14億耶照比例分配耶你的比例分配都出來了耶嘿 你今天跟我說你們沒有共識這這到底怎麼回事啊"},{"start":16187.931,"end":16207.711,"text":"中四我必須分攤的在甲殼段是53.2%海線的部分42.5%對不對三線延伸的部分是56.19你連中央地方分配的預算都已經比例分配出來了都已經有了你告訴我沒有共識那怎麼回事啊市長"},{"start":16212.884,"end":16230.809,"text":"我這樣講之前在談這個假後線主要是因為它的經濟就財務的可行性是不是可以那時候大家比較不一樣一見所以才把這三個全部就把它拆分對啊你已經拆分你就是要政策要去執行啊所以本期要問你進度啊請教進度請教進度"},{"start":16234.161,"end":16249.95,"text":"你今天如果沒有假貨線串聯你就不是真正的叫做山海環線嘛對不對這是在你的大政策裡頭你已經將預算路線都已經規劃下去啊那你為什麼不執行請教"},{"start":16254.619,"end":16276.074,"text":"我們一個結論這三個指向前面兩個你們6月29告訴我們西部要修正我們台中市政府儘快修正請你們趕快要協助第三個指向甲後線如果沒有串聯起來它不是山海環線嘛那你已經預估351.14億而且三個高架車站總長度14.3公里我請你趕快去追進度好不好"},{"start":16283.219,"end":16303.947,"text":"趕快拒絕進度好不好好不好你不要讓我嚇一跳怎麼沒有共識你已經都出來一個政府怎麼一個政策出來竟然告訴我沒有共識怎麼可以如此我再一次強調假後線串聯起來才真正叫做山海環線山海環線再一個一分鐘給我謝謝主席"},{"start":16304.807,"end":16326.076,"text":"市長、局長在這邊喔現在改制為公司今年1月份我們目前為止我覺得很緊張所以拜託主席給我這個一點時間喔我們今年1月到7月台鐵公司改為公司化呢585件事故在你們的出入口貼了一個什麼安全憲章"},{"start":16327.861,"end":16348.569,"text":"你們貼了一個安全憲章你改自為公司你竟然增加了4成的一個事故接下來你們有一個5年安全提升計畫5年安全提升計畫市長你在這裡你督導的你們改自為公司竟然你的事故增加4成這種回事什麼原因?要不要去進去?"},{"start":16353.679,"end":16368.827,"text":"結果論你的事故增加了4成你怎麼樣告訴我們的社會大眾你改字為公司市長你不了解這個數字我看你一頭霧水我就告訴你本席告訴你這個數字1月到7月585件比去年同期增加4成你會不會緊張會不會憂心啊要怎麼因應要怎麼因應"},{"start":16376.533,"end":16403.532,"text":"我想這部分剛剛提到了他的這個事件確實是比過去增加事成很恐怖耶對怎麼因應我們後續我想我再會再跟臺聯你把因應方案給本席好不好因為你們後天10月16號電費增加你們會增加多少錢成本我們成本出估應該會增加3億增加3億那我告訴你一句話10月22號"},{"start":16405.868,"end":16414.266,"text":"又是你們要審查要不要漲票價錯誤的能源政策不能轉嫁到我們的消費者市長你要不要承諾"},{"start":16415.66,"end":16433.366,"text":"你要不要承諾?可以喔!10月22不能漲電價!你說的可以喔!我告訴你喔!錯誤的能源政策不能變相到我們的消費者!你告訴我們10月22號你那個會議我們會先跟委員報告我們先從我們的節電的部分結合對!所以10月22號你不能漲電價!不能漲票價!對不對?你剛才答應我的!你答應我我謝謝你!對不對?市長"},{"start":16442.622,"end":16453.029,"text":"我剛講的 對了 電價的 電費的部分我們剛才先從節能的部分處理好 所以不能變價來漲到價 這個我想我們會來努力啦會來努力達成喔 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員"},{"start":16461.007,"end":16467.409,"text":"王宏威委員、王宏威委員、王宏威委員、王宏威委員不在現場張祺凱委員、張祺凱委員、張祺凱委員、張祺凱委員不在現場林佩祥委員"},{"start":16476.573,"end":16494.279,"text":"林佩祥委員、林佩祥委員、林佩祥委員不在現場。接下來,邀請高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員不在現場。接下來,邀請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在現場。接下來,邀請蘇金全委員。"},{"start":16495.579,"end":16518.533,"text":"蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在現場。接下來邀請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在現場。接下來邀請游皓委員、游皓委員、游皓委員、游皓委員不在現場。接下來邀請林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員不在現場。接下來邀請劉建國委員、"},{"start":16520.514,"end":16547.746,"text":"劉建國委員．劉建國委員．劉建國委員不在現場接下來邀請葉元之委員．葉元之委員．葉元之委員．葉元之委員不在現場今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢做以下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員尤浩、邱若驊、劉建國還有林沛翔委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":16548.786,"end":16559.115,"text":"委員以質詢中要求提供相關的書面資料或未及答覆的部分﹐請相關的機關技術以書面答覆本次會議到此結束﹐現在散會謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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喔 抱歉抱歉抱歉好好好我忘了要介紹列席官員那列席官員有環境部部長彭啟明、彭部長"},{"start":2038.619,"end":2063.799,"text":"環境部政務次長施文貞政務次長、氣候變遷署蔡雲怡署長、資源循環署賴盈盈署長、環境管理署顏旭明署長、國家環境研究院劉忠勇院長、大氣環境司張順清司長、水質保護司王月斌司長、"},{"start":2066.346,"end":2092.045,"text":"監測資訊司胡明輝副司長、經濟部產業發展署楊志清署長、綜合規劃司蘇惠君專門委員、標準檢驗局洪一生組長、能源署廖芳林組長、台灣電力股份有限公司郭天和副總經理、台灣中油股份有限公司謝茂傑處長、"},{"start":2094.295,"end":2098.182,"text":"好那接下來請環境部彭部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2106.278,"end":2121.745,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在座的政府官員還有媒體朋友大家早安我環境部長來報告台灣的碳費收費標準還有決議主要的內容如這個4個所附大家知道其實碳定價在全世界是一個非常重要的一環目前在亞洲來說的話我們已經有5個國家這樣做我們是第6個國家來實施碳定價"},{"start":2127.148,"end":2150.419,"text":"那碳定價有分碳費稅是一種那另外一個就是所謂碳交易碳交易種目前大概多數的國家是選擇兩位並行是主要的一個原因那我們國家因為過去這幾年推動碳費有一段的過程所以我們還是以碳費我上任之後就是還是努力的在過去這四個多月把這個後面的過程把它接手完成"},{"start":2150.859,"end":2165.534,"text":"那最重要的是說我們這個碳費是為了要達成我們國家減碳目標NDC24-1的重要一個里程碑我們算過如果我們每個企業都提自主減碳計畫的話大概可以減到14%這個是比過去自主減碳都來得有效"},{"start":2166.135,"end":2194.23,"text":"那我們目前大家一定很懷疑說這個碳費是不是收得太高或太低其實我們針對國際的定義,碳定價裡面包含了這種所謂的平均化石的燃料稅還有我們所定義的碳費的制度各位可以看得到我們日本跟韓國它的排碳量比我們的多它的這種所謂的化石燃料稅其實也比我們多了是我們的兩倍到三倍左右一個幅度所以其實我們台灣的這個碳費的這個比例是高或低其實還是屬於偏低的但是各位還是會從這個費率的價錢覺得"},{"start":2196.011,"end":2218.237,"text":"我們似乎比日本高一點點但是你要以整體的來看雖然說我們的碳費的用途是為了減碳那所謂的這個燃料稅還有一些別的用途但是在廣義上碳定價都是把這個算成裡面的一個一環那我們預計呢我們未來碳費徵收之後在未來幾年內也會開始實施這個碳交易的這個制度因為我們從碳費的溝通過程當中所有的產業都告訴我們說"},{"start":2219.677,"end":2244.977,"text":"他們還是認為碳交易是一個未來的一個國際上的主要的主軸他們也願意來做這個事情那目前呢我們這個碳費的這個主要是根植於氣候法所以三個執法呢我們在8月底的時候已經完成了那碳費徵收費率呢上個禮拜開完徵收費率委員會我們在10月9號也進行這個預告的工作那目前呢這個三執法跟碳費的徵收都是因為氣候變遷因應法提供的28條跟29條的一個內容"},{"start":2247.139,"end":2268.71,"text":"我們已經如期的一個公布那事實上就是符合這裡面的標準那碳費是什麼時候開始開徵明年1月1號開始開徵但是呢我們在今年的費率上的話我們會給企業一點試行的這個機會也就是說明年5月就要申報今年的費率但是不交錢這個是我們的讓企業能夠來習慣這個碳費制度那如果我們明年1月1號開始徵收這個"},{"start":2271.252,"end":2284.052,"text":"這個起徵的開點的話他預計的是114年等於後年的5月我們才會真是收到這個實質上的一個費用那目前呢我必須說碳費是一個減量工具不是財政工具所以他其實是一個減量為出發點並不是說"},{"start":2286.655,"end":2307.63,"text":"來做一個政府的稅收他是一個過度轉型的一個功能所以其實我們設計的就是鼓勵企業他如果提出自己減量的目標這個就是說企業如果很努力的減肥那這個其實他我們會把你說你是不是體質上好不好或是說你要如何去減高碳洩漏的指的是說這些企業如果我們沒有給他優惠他可能就跑到這種所謂不排碳的"},{"start":2308.07,"end":2325.622,"text":"排碳沒有這種所謂碳費的國家像越南、東南亞一些國家去所以我們給他一些高碳洩漏風險的這個比例那裡面的還有一個係數0.2、0.4、0.6目前初期是0.2但是各位知道全世界有這樣的制度的都有所以慢慢的就會把它拉回來拉到一個正常的標準值"},{"start":2326.122,"end":2329.764,"text":"非乾化洩漏優惠值2.5萬噸其他如果什麼都不做就是乘以一般的費率這個費率規劃的重點有一個K值這個也會隨著未來調整例如說現在是2.5萬噸未來可能減到1萬噸甚至不減"},{"start":2348.336,"end":2348.516,"text":"自主減碳計畫"},{"start":2363.904,"end":2384.511,"text":"說真的他要付出這樣的這個成本會更高但是他大家都知道說我做這個是我自己去體制的調整這個比實際上費率他來的來的重要那我目前呢我們現在有標竿一標負負表一負表二就削減率這個部分呢就是一個是42一個是23就適用於優惠費率這個目前我們可以預期可以減到3700萬噸等於是說這個對我們減量是很有一個成效的"},{"start":2388.132,"end":2388.572,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":2410.543,"end":2428.352,"text":"我第6次的本議委員會我們就決定了這個300塊跟100塊跟50塊那這個一般費率是300塊優惠費率是100塊那這個都有參考到臨近的一個國家的費率那如果要得到最低的50塊的這個優惠費率其實它的挑戰性是42%是有一定的挑戰性的"},{"start":2428.852,"end":2457.443,"text":"那這個裡面對於我們的這個經濟的物價的影響我們都有算過CPI GDP的影響都不是很高所以各位請可以放心那我們也算過多少的碳費繳多少的情境所以例如說你排在那1000萬噸的企業如果如果你很努力大概最後只要繳到1億這個不是說如同很多人會繳個30億這樣的一個額度所以基本上我們都有把它試算出來那今天的經濟日報也特別算出來對企業的毛利造成多少的衝擊他也是引述我們的資料"},{"start":2458.223,"end":2482.924,"text":"其實也特別強調說企業只要努力去做這個其實影響毛利不會那麼的大的這個是一個很正面的一個報導那未來我們會跟經濟部合作來提供輔導的力道例如說我們減碳的減斷或是碳費的一個收入那未來我們會提供三大的基金前面兩個基金綠色成長我們正在申請當中然後跟金管會的綠色金融創新保險業的資金我們也正在進行當中已經在談一些細節了"},{"start":2483.704,"end":2498.369,"text":"那這個兩個完成之後跟創投業者的近年的基金我們也會同步來啟動這個都不是花政府現在除了這個國發基金是我們政府的基金之外其他都是來自於民間導向的基金當然我也希望貴院可以在預算上面給我們未來的支持喔"},{"start":2499.089,"end":2525.263,"text":"我們這個另外一個大家最關心的CBAN其實我們目前已經跟歐盟談好一個實際上的一個溝通協調上個月我也去了上個禮拜我也到了日本談這些事情其實獲得非常正面的一個回饋完全可以抵沒有問題但是各位知道人家是收70塊歐元我們是只有300塊所以未來我們會慢慢慢慢2027年接軌了之後開始我們應該就可以有一定的費率可以更接近一點點那目前這個我們會推動"},{"start":2526.904,"end":2546.253,"text":"臺版的CBAN,那當然臺北CBAN是很複雜的事情,我們明年會開始,我們會整合各個部會,要求我們的競爭對手,例如說水泥的進口業者要在事情申報這個排放強度,那很多的業者提供的建議,例如說排放強度為主,不是總量為主,我們也會來考慮,那最重要的是說,因為現在社會上對於這個"},{"start":2548.474,"end":2571.513,"text":"減碳已經是一頭熱那但是呢其實我必須說我必須想要把它降溫起來各位知道我們這碳費這次只針對281家公司那事實上我們上市櫃公司在金管會要求之下1800餘家公司他也必須未來再幾年要推動碳盤查、碳申報、查驗證那另外一個呢就是供應鏈的要求例如說蘋果的手機他需要他要求你提供他的排碳係數除了這個之外"},{"start":2573.775,"end":2601.233,"text":"都不需要做你只要真的我們政府環境部或是我們經濟部的碳盤查的驗證的系統就夠了所以現在的的確是個社會上一團亂很多的課程我們在這邊也藉由這個機會公開的喊話不必要浪費時間而且會造成整個查驗證的系統的混亂目前我們有115家的查驗證的公司大概有兩千一百五十幾位從業人員在做這個事情只要我們台灣願意這樣做我們把外面這個炒作的降溫"},{"start":2604.035,"end":2608.681,"text":"以上所有的報告 這個挑戰非常的大 也希望貴院可以給我們更多的一個支持 謝謝"},{"start":2610.762,"end":2634.995,"text":"好謝謝彭部長的報告那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做一下宣告本位委員詢答6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上10點30分處理臨時提案"},{"start":2639.878,"end":2645.462,"text":"10點30分截止收案好那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言謝謝主席有請彭部長"},{"start":2657.817,"end":2676.278,"text":"陳委員早部長早今天您報告了這個碳費的收費標準那碳費就是為了因應整個氣候變遷的這個關係那環境部竟然從早期的環保署升格為環境部我想國人跟民眾對於環境部是會期許說要承擔更大的責任那我今天有幾個議題跟"},{"start":2678.079,"end":2691.789,"text":"部長做討論,第一個就是都市的熱島效應現在越來越嚴重了,不知道部長您對這個部分有沒有一個基本的解方,就是都市熱島效應需要哪一些部門、哪一些政府機構來配合"},{"start":2693.546,"end":2704.115,"text":"報告委員 這個其實我在民間的時候就在做這個事情所以其實第一個他是地方政府跟中央政府一起要來合作所以其實目前我必須跟委員談成關於熱 熱傷害並沒有一個中央組織部會是負責這個熱的事情"},{"start":2708.959,"end":2726.189,"text":"那我也會再到時候再跟行政院那邊報告是不是誰要來主責但是如果未來要希望環境部來主責我個人是非常願意來進行這樣協同的規劃因為都市最多的就是這個建築物和道路的路面因為白天會吸收非常多的這個太陽熱能"},{"start":2726.969,"end":2726.989,"text":"：文貴議員"},{"start":2743.297,"end":2753.223,"text":"那內政部但是事實上我們了解他並沒有把這件事當作優先的這個項目那您在今年7月31要跟環境部跟衛福部還有勞動部有共同主辦的一個一場氣候邊遷高溫調適的對策研討會所以就你也提到剛剛你也這樣說了對於極端熱這個做法目前並看不出哪一個部會會來主責所以我自己想要拜託部長我也剛剛也聽到你有這樣的回應就是說是不是由部長跟部長帶領環境部"},{"start":2772.534,"end":2773.174,"text":"提出了修法的草案我在第5條第3項的第9款"},{"start":2800.02,"end":2816.662,"text":"所以讓環境部可以依此來要求內政部等部會來配合推動都市的環境綠化覆蓋率的提升還有從這個建築的技術、工法跟它的建材來提升建築的能效請問部長您支持我這樣的一個修法建議嗎"},{"start":2817.923,"end":2832.976,"text":"謝謝委員 委員你這個方式非常的好但是我也回去跟因為這個是氣候變遷整個行政院氣候變遷的這個永續會的一個主要的一個功項但是我也坦承這個熱我們並沒有去重視"},{"start":2833.696,"end":2849.286,"text":"所以委員再給我們一點時間我待會去延商但是我非常肯定委員能夠給我們一樣一個實際上的建議董事、行政跟立法部門一起來努力部長另外一個議題就是前幾天有一個報告內容是來自環境部的檢測報告那很多人看了非常驚訝就是醫院的放流水"},{"start":2849.906,"end":2852.088,"text":"臺中榮總市黃岸類藥品超標2、3倍其每醫院有3項抗生素嚴重超標其中頭包子菌類抗生素超標3700多倍"},{"start":2868.101,"end":2894.028,"text":"連衛福部的桃園醫院也被驗出中文叫福奎諾同類的抗生素也高出標準許多這兩天中融跟部桃都陸續對外公開澄清行政院退伍會說他們檢驗的結果都符合標準這件事有點嚴重部長他說他們沒有但是環境部的檢測報告是有"},{"start":2894.528,"end":2912.913,"text":"那是不是說要有個公正的第3次再做一次還是說大家可以比對一下你檢驗的方法檢驗的時間點等等等等就是這個是有關中融中融他說他是符合標準的就是退伏會來說明那衛福桃醫院講的就是水中抗生素可能來自服用病人的"},{"start":2915.475,"end":2931.231,"text":"本來就是這樣啊醫院照顧病人病人這個擔心病人會感染不管是預防性使用或是治療性使用抗生素使用是跑不掉的就是說這只是說明來源但是這個還是要處理因為這麼嚴重的這個抗生素超標它不是水汙染的問題"},{"start":2932.532,"end":2932.652,"text":"主席"},{"start":2948.579,"end":2961.245,"text":"無藥可用的結果大家就知道所以抗藥性一直是一個非常重要的問題那醫院這個環境跑出這個問題所以部長到底就發生什麼事情就是說為什麼他們會有不一致的說法部長你可以稍微簡單的說明一下這個發現嗎其實這個我們是用"},{"start":2965.247,"end":2989.234,"text":"第一個大家相信環境部的這個中立的客觀的態度我們檢驗方法是用最嚴格的標準來看那這個是針對這個所謂的抗生素的標準不是放流水的標準所以醫院的確他有些超過基本的數值然後非常的多有些醫院但是我也必須說他沒有立即的危害但是我們長期來看對環境一定會有一些影響所以我們其實未來我們也希望醫院可以主動的能夠來檢討然後持續的追蹤"},{"start":2989.394,"end":2989.614,"text":"環境部都用代號稱呼"},{"start":3005.484,"end":3026.237,"text":"或是說把這個醫院的名稱遮掩起來為什麼要用代號或遮掩起來呢這是問題蠻嚴重的為什麼要遮掩起來呢你知道美國食品藥管理局他們只要查任何藥廠哪一些不合格的他就馬上公告上網上網他可以改善啊改善以後就沒有啦就大家就會用這個方式來檢驗啊就是以示公正啊也讓國人有知的權利啊為什麼把名字遮起來呢吳清水報4張來回答"},{"start":3032.16,"end":3036.181,"text":"關注的項目90項分年做了一些調查因為它還是在調查當中那還不是一個標準的方法"},{"start":3061.627,"end":3070.375,"text":"因為他的項目非常的多,然後對象也非常的多,所以一般我們參考國外的做法,就是分年會做調查那這就是分年調查到一個階段之後呢,我們把它公告為我們接下來要強制遞減申報、削減的一些項目那為什麼現在已經有建議啦,就是說對這些醫院他有提出這個自主管理的建議,但是沒有裁判,建議都提出來了耶"},{"start":3083.806,"end":3104.497,"text":"就是建議他們要怎麼做但是沒有裁法就算說最後研究計畫結束我們真正要進行去處理的話部長那是不是說應該要有裁法也許你可以說第一次發現第一次發現我們是限期改善那沒有改善這裁法還是最有用的因為這個抗生素抗藥性產生是不得了的好嗎部長就是要往這個方向去做管理可以嗎"},{"start":3105.517,"end":3121.329,"text":"我們9月26日預告這個草案的草案出來然後預計如果未來超過的話會罰一萬以上六百萬以下的罰款我們下面還有一個很重要的議題去年開始除了馬祖那個臺南的這個沿海也開始出現藍眼淚那近期有這個學者指出"},{"start":3121.989,"end":3141.859,"text":"事實上藍眼類它是工業排放這個磷酸鹽或矽酸鹽所累積的生態反撲學者說藍眼類應該是一種環境污染的指標它不是奇蹟它是警訊就是排放的高濃度的磷酸鹽會造成河口沿海的這些生態跟養殖的負面影響"},{"start":3142.739,"end":3157.575,"text":"那環境部對於這個水源保護區、零酸鹽的排放還是有管理,但水源保護區以外呢?部長,你認為水源保護區以外的這個零酸鹽的這個管理,是不是要納管呢?因為這個目前沒有管理耶。"},{"start":3158.215,"end":3169.378,"text":"報告委員其實自然的這個磷酸鹽這樣這個藍眼淚這個其實OK的但是如果像這樣的它非自然的是屬於工廠工業牌上的都跑出藍眼淚了所以我們其實8月24號已經修改了這個預告的這個法案年底會開始公告所以這個磷酸鹽我們已經設定的標準所以部長已經在這個這件事已經在進行已經進行了"},{"start":3178.74,"end":3195.796,"text":"那這樣我要談到高科技工業重地、國科會科學園區零酸鹽的管理問題我們先就中科臺中園區環境小組不錯在2016年他有會議上率先請中科管理局訂定了零酸鹽的自主管理但我們沒有簽到其他的科學園區有跟進你看右邊這個小表格你看看我們從這個資訊可以來看兩件事情第一個"},{"start":3202.342,"end":3224.989,"text":"單一管理區各園區標準不一你看竹科園區它是60mg每一升但是這個榮潭園區它是120差了兩倍這第一個管理標準不一同一個園區第二個國科會有放任北中南三個科學園區各自為政有些有管理有些沒管理有些有定有些沒有定所以這樣的一個放任結果就是一國多治"},{"start":3226.009,"end":3246.502,"text":"那環境部是不是要把總齡這個要做一個管理有一定的標準進行總量管制還是說讓國科會自己去管理部長其實我們已經預告了年底會發布我們第一階段是150然後25我們會分階段來進行所以包括不會讓國家這個放任這個過去的總齡管制是一國多制囉"},{"start":3247.233,"end":3264.033,"text":"沒有,現在以我們為準那我再確定一下,就是總領館這件事不是國科會是環境部,是嗎?我這樣解釋對嗎?這個是環評,這個是環境影響評估裡面的當時個別的要求的一個標準那部長覺得03管制要不要這個入法?"},{"start":3265.09,"end":3290.475,"text":"我們現在的這個草案裡面已經年底就會重視報告如果你不重視這件事你一定是重視你才會把這次的這個失業廢水調查局屋苑管房居管理機關這個有把列入嘛把零算列入就是你們重視這件事情嘛所以是不是部長一定要去執行不要說科學園區他的標準比較寬鬆那環境部的比較嚴那一國多治沒有就全部以我們為準以我們為準這個年底會公告謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3293.516,"end":3297.779,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭芝委員的發言 接下來請林月琴委員發言主席好 麻煩部長 請彭部長林委員早部長早 我們今天要討論的 我想也是全國關注的"},{"start":3320.458,"end":3342.63,"text":"那這個議題在你上任我就有質詢那當時我很在意三件事也是今天要質詢追問的就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢上週已經10月7號已經出來了那可是這每公噸300元雖然剛剛你報告講說好像事實上是比其他國家事實上還算"},{"start":3343.697,"end":3346.019,"text":"未來是不是能夠實質達到我們講的排碳效果還是虛擬了事 不知道第三個碳費收到之後到底作為什麼樣的用途"},{"start":3359.983,"end":3386.631,"text":"那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高"},{"start":3388.513,"end":3388.533,"text":"致詢"},{"start":3397.483,"end":3424.898,"text":"所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳淨價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看"},{"start":3425.658,"end":3450.404,"text":"那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅"},{"start":3451.544,"end":3455.705,"text":"所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年期我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買"},{"start":3481.169,"end":3502.056,"text":"編譯"},{"start":3503.086,"end":3526.893,"text":"每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜"},{"start":3527.577,"end":3549.526,"text":"所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果"},{"start":3550.326,"end":3577.276,"text":"其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們的制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習"},{"start":3578.576,"end":3592.81,"text":"所以這個其實是一個折衷後的一個結果,鼓勵的結果我剛講是外部成本會造成外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶"},{"start":3595.071,"end":3611.599,"text":"臺碩石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你剛剛這邊表單裡邊剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交"},{"start":3612.6,"end":3627.482,"text":"一億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到一億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠"},{"start":3628.403,"end":3648.316,"text":"報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行"},{"start":3649.256,"end":3671.643,"text":"但是也跟委員報告其實我們發現其實這個制度很困難很辛苦沒有辦法兼顧每一個企業所以其實我自己未來我們期許是要走到總量管制的碳交易會比較有人性會比較更符合這個需求部長我還是說一聲辛苦了因為碳費制定當然很不容易可是也必須要深刻檢討了因為從質詢一開始到現在就質疑"},{"start":3672.028,"end":3678.774,"text":"10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法"},{"start":3695.427,"end":3721.425,"text":"所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕"},{"start":3722.285,"end":3738.817,"text":"千萬不能忽視要嘛就是及時調整我們的政策方向要嘛就是要講清楚說明白否則現在民間事實上還是存在很大的疑慮所以千萬不要存在行政部門的傲慢來逼民間就是吞了你的這樣的一個結果"},{"start":3740.154,"end":3755.16,"text":"未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大"},{"start":3759.227,"end":3784.756,"text":"目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好 第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸"},{"start":3791.162,"end":3796.108,"text":"環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數所以二三期大概何時會去啟動"},{"start":3798.586,"end":3820.679,"text":"這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系"},{"start":3821.954,"end":3848.718,"text":"好,第三就是,雖然剛剛你有講說,我們在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成?"},{"start":3850.399,"end":3877.914,"text":"有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情"},{"start":3878.427,"end":3902.14,"text":"因為這是工商團體問嘛因為他也擔心說如果我們自己國內可是如果國外的進到台灣來的話你沒有管制的話一樣啊那對他們來講也是不利最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊"},{"start":3903.43,"end":3904.351,"text":"工作環境"},{"start":3923.693,"end":3926.494,"text":"不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康"},{"start":3949.842,"end":3950.903,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的發言,接下來請王育民委員發言"},{"start":3977.332,"end":3981.213,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代"},{"start":4004.577,"end":4005.618,"text":"其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間"},{"start":4021.77,"end":4030.814,"text":"而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳"},{"start":4050.623,"end":4065.732,"text":"而且也要保有我們臺灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道"},{"start":4066.793,"end":4068.254,"text":"總共要投入多少的經費預算"},{"start":4095.313,"end":4095.653,"text":"請問加起來有多少錢?"},{"start":4112.154,"end":4130.442,"text":"經濟部跟委員做一個說明我們在議後條例的預算有框了大概100多億然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤茶然後從老闆CEO班一直到員工到總經理你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年的經費?三年"},{"start":4133.483,"end":4143.012,"text":"一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?那這樣真的不夠啊?剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了"},{"start":4145.046,"end":4145.066,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":4175.386,"end":4200.227,"text":"那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊"},{"start":4202.028,"end":4223.453,"text":"那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型"},{"start":4224.366,"end":4231.512,"text":"報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少"},{"start":4234.644,"end":4256.405,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的"},{"start":4259.127,"end":4276.772,"text":"像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本施發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場"},{"start":4279.193,"end":4306.605,"text":"所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難"},{"start":4307.705,"end":4332.294,"text":"因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題"},{"start":4333.394,"end":4350.778,"text":"報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債"},{"start":4354.039,"end":4382.496,"text":"氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常的支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度"},{"start":4383.116,"end":4399.361,"text":"以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到沒有辦法做到這樣的力道"},{"start":4401.582,"end":4409.609,"text":"是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來"},{"start":4421.4,"end":4445.115,"text":"最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭"},{"start":4446.016,"end":4469.344,"text":"就代表說它這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實它周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到"},{"start":4469.764,"end":4480.571,"text":"要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在"},{"start":4498.881,"end":4525.787,"text":"這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的"},{"start":4526.827,"end":4553.033,"text":"真的實質減碳的目標。好不好?好,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,接下來請廖偉祥委員發言。謝謝主席,有請我們的彭部長。彭部長。"},{"start":4557.638,"end":4578.531,"text":"委員早部長好部長早部長辛苦了但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢"},{"start":4579.695,"end":4605.42,"text":"現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢"},{"start":4606.48,"end":4622.188,"text":"部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能像歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題"},{"start":4635.185,"end":4640.893,"text":"那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公佈我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應"},{"start":4641.682,"end":4667.266,"text":"第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情"},{"start":4667.386,"end":4695.395,"text":"那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上還沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們在去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在試申報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做"},{"start":4697.042,"end":4718.44,"text":"好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費嘛部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善啊當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對"},{"start":4719.801,"end":4733.899,"text":"但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是"},{"start":4736.983,"end":4762.568,"text":"未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下他在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了他很多的成本和降低了他競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做"},{"start":4764.329,"end":4781.668,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣它大幅降低供屋它的排碳量也減少了1⅓所以它的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢"},{"start":4782.408,"end":4802.621,"text":"當然啦有些國家的核能他是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是"},{"start":4803.101,"end":4825.877,"text":"就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題"},{"start":4826.557,"end":4838.234,"text":"不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路"},{"start":4838.854,"end":4862.266,"text":"但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟佈定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次"},{"start":4866.871,"end":4892.942,"text":"現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的是意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數"},{"start":4894.423,"end":4913.265,"text":"你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠"},{"start":4915.487,"end":4930.343,"text":"包委其實我們的上市規公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大"},{"start":4932.245,"end":4949.478,"text":"那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做"},{"start":4950.086,"end":4965.459,"text":"OK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會可能...對,那你們現在...但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?"},{"start":4965.979,"end":4986.601,"text":"A或B對A或B但你們現在是用計算是B嘛但是移到我們偵測目標我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準對不對那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理但大部分可能是以B方案為主體然後去計算這個溫管收入喔"},{"start":4987.242,"end":5013.711,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們是不是我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案因為A方案其實他是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準啦行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的這個徵收對象來講這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的多"},{"start":5013.871,"end":5014.371,"text":"中文字幕組"},{"start":5031.224,"end":5060.166,"text":"我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的方案怎麼去指導我們民間企業的轉型因為現在我們在民間還是聽到非常多的企業覺得說很多東西好像不是很明確那比起像不管是歐盟他們收到這些國家挹注的資金去幫助他們轉型我們是遠遠不足的部分這部分我是希望說部長你們要好好再回去跨部會的去整合好另外就是"},{"start":5060.851,"end":5082.612,"text":"我們COP28這個城市氣候峰會也指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空汙基金的這個6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告"},{"start":5083.58,"end":5105.415,"text":"這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見"},{"start":5105.555,"end":5129.779,"text":"我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途"},{"start":5131.04,"end":5142.333,"text":"但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是"},{"start":5143.26,"end":5163.263,"text":"你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資"},{"start":5164.464,"end":5190.981,"text":"甚至是投資國人、健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的啦那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的啦其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個"},{"start":5192.242,"end":5214.597,"text":"他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經都已經都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":5216.938,"end":5217.838,"text":"主席好,我們一樣請彭部長"},{"start":5243.977,"end":5268.662,"text":"邱委員好 部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心"},{"start":5270.382,"end":5298.317,"text":"本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望"},{"start":5299.386,"end":5315.994,"text":"那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然"},{"start":5317.729,"end":5343.231,"text":"檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在講到我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要"},{"start":5346.434,"end":5356.46,"text":"抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300"},{"start":5362.1,"end":5375.725,"text":"優惠方案B也要到100當然優惠方案A也是50元兩年是調整一次的那未來當然我看到是上看上千元那重點是這些優惠條件我們業者到底有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":5376.69,"end":5393.772,"text":"報告委員,其實你委員剛才說的都是重點,但是我也必須說,台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家,所以我們其實是慢了,我們的確也會觀察說,會不會不公平的現象,例如說有些像越南、印尼有,越南、東南亞有些國家,"},{"start":5394.893,"end":5416.067,"text":"其實我們台灣的碳費的量,如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅,其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低。韓國委員看到這個5.7是對的,但是韓國是進行總量管制的碳交易,他的一噸的碳在市面上超過排蛋的話,大概是18塊美金,500多塊台幣。"},{"start":5418.348,"end":5418.508,"text":"臺灣現在的這個"},{"start":5436.505,"end":5461.557,"text":"處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%"},{"start":5464.564,"end":5484.682,"text":"對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者"},{"start":5486.223,"end":5511.138,"text":"當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將"},{"start":5516.892,"end":5535.746,"text":"那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額"},{"start":5536.627,"end":5551.538,"text":"那我在跟委員報告是說比如說以歐盟來講他的製造業是有免費配額但是他的發電業是百分之百要到市場上去買這個排放量的那因為我們的制度是這個發電就是範疇一跟範疇二全部都是要繳碳費所以這個這樣子稍微換算下來我們的這個排放量調整讓他範疇一加範疇二的"},{"start":5566.471,"end":5580.042,"text":"對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好"},{"start":5580.282,"end":5581.102,"text":"有些業者其實在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作"},{"start":5607.808,"end":5622.202,"text":"然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者"},{"start":5633.112,"end":5634.713,"text":"跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量"},{"start":5656.806,"end":5676.754,"text":"那當時他們這個做比技術標杆要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去"},{"start":5678.335,"end":5706.253,"text":"剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用"},{"start":5707.864,"end":5712.926,"text":"臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也"},{"start":5736.195,"end":5756.513,"text":"公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排"},{"start":5760.296,"end":5783.912,"text":"量中佔了45%以上所以這個比例是非常高的為了要有效的能夠這個減碳我覺得我們這部分也要應該好好的來斟酌一下這樣才對其他的這個業者才比較公平當然如果是涉及到民生的我當然也贊成因為他是配合政府一些政策當然他有些尤其台電他有一些是可以有彈性的"},{"start":5784.432,"end":5794.7,"text":"其他業者如果不是在針對這個部分的時候,我覺得我們必須要公平對待,這樣可以嗎?好,可以。謝謝。謝謝邱政軍委員發言。接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我請部長。請彭部長。"},{"start":5814.578,"end":5814.94,"text":"所有人好"},{"start":5818.23,"end":5841.725,"text":"我今天問你三個問題很清楚第一個問題就是你根據這個氣候變遷因應法第32條就成立這個基金嘛 對不對那這個基金明年後年開始收你的預估這個基金到最後差不多會有多少規模60億後年後年5月會收到60億那最後也是60億"},{"start":5845.134,"end":5847.258,"text":"大概是60億,如果大家都很認真檢探的話。"},{"start":5856.443,"end":5880.852,"text":"就是如果說大家都不減碳的話那當然就會到300億、300、400億左右不會到1000億啦那這個基金的管理是你成立一個委員會來管理就是環境部會成立一個溫室氣體管理基金那這個也會納入各個部會一起來參與所以有包括人民團體的捐贈啊什麼都變成這個基金的規模嗎"},{"start":5883.16,"end":5905.744,"text":"我看你1、2、3、4、5、6條還有其他收入等等好那這個基金就是有多久要來立法院報告一次這個就是我們每年的這個預算審議的時候就會把預算的規模提出來今天有臨時提案好那第二個問題就是碳費碳費是剛剛我有聽你講台電所發出來的電賣給"},{"start":5911.095,"end":5913.917,"text":"臺電一年的收入差不多7000出頭億它的支出是8000多億所以它每年虧損1000億"},{"start":5938.337,"end":5949.306,"text":"那這樣的話他台電這樣搞出來的七八千億的那個東西他一年的碳是差不多多少是幾千萬噸還是幾"},{"start":5951.074,"end":5968.153,"text":"臺電大概總個排電量大概是1億噸左右大概1億噸左右1億噸對我們國家大概是2億6啦但是他是讓我們大家用啊所以他自己用自己排放他自己也會排放嘛"},{"start":5969.414,"end":5982.683,"text":"這個產生一個問題我們像歐盟他Codex就是華典委員會他我們醫療在用的食品衛生的什麼萊克多巴胺的是有一個華典委員會那現在歐盟"},{"start":5984.164,"end":6013.559,"text":"到底是什麼委員會在界定這個還有這個委員會的認定比如說今天中午一個便當來這個便當產生多少碳或者是說這個便當用紙盒或者是用環環境部的用鋼盒那這樣它的碳是多少是誰在說了算誰在定考試規則誰在定那個標準我接過新加坡來的他們也在定那到底這是什麼情形"},{"start":6014.159,"end":6033.173,"text":"報告委員這個是每個國家他的制度不一樣啦吼所以像有些像歐洲有些國家他就直接電力業就直接就課了他是上游就課了的確有些國家是這個樣子那有些國家跟我們一樣每個國家都不一樣對我說這個產生多少碳這個產生多少碳那是誰在頂說他多少那是誰在頂啊"},{"start":6036.215,"end":6039.34,"text":"好像...我都說完整會議都我不會說的咧應該是說...我們請正式來"},{"start":6045.723,"end":6073.493,"text":"跟委員報告就是說什麼樣的活動會產生多少排放或是做一個東西出來有的變成是組織的盤查有的是產品的盤查那這個都是首先有這個國際上的標準有ISO的標準我看現在也沒什麼標準啊現在新加坡來的來跟我談的他自己定一套標準啊歐盟要一套標準啊我們台灣是認誰認誰的是彭部長你自己認還是怎樣"},{"start":6076.614,"end":6095.939,"text":"國際的標準比較有彈性所以每一個國家它內化成比如說我們說產品碳足跡我們還會用本國的係數去做一個調整所以如果是自願性的產品碳足跡我們會用這個方式處理那如果說比如說像歐盟CBAN他要求產品要申報產品碳含量那歐盟就會定規這個才跟委員報告就有點像CODEX這個味道是不是"},{"start":6099.48,"end":6102.722,"text":"那第二個問題就是你說要補助各縣市那各縣市是用什麼標準補助各縣市啊各縣市是要幹什麼事"},{"start":6123.263,"end":6141.702,"text":"報告委員其實因為大家對於這個碳費過去都有一個想像空間會有個幾千億那的確有些縣市首長就跟我說他要因為他也是排蛋大屋要跟我要很多但是我必須說其實這個國際上對於這種減碳一定要有一個真的去減碳有一個量出來"},{"start":6142.482,"end":6163.539,"text":"因為高屏那邊工廠都在高屏,然後公司設在台北市,然後在台北市繳稅,然後在高屏那邊放雞腮,沒有生雞腮,所以現在地方政府都嘩嘩叫,那台北市市政府稅收的那麼多的稅,250萬人口他可以收到兩三千億,"},{"start":6165.866,"end":6179.303,"text":"這個以後要補助各縣市你是用省人頭還是省工廠還是省汙染的程度這個都要講清楚到時候會飛所以這個部長你要注意一下"},{"start":6180.004,"end":6186.046,"text":"最後一個問題要問你醫療的你上次有跟邱太仁有參加一個會你說醫療部門佔的排放比例是0.9然後如果加上一些供應鏈來的胃藥耗材等等會達到4.4"},{"start":6208.018,"end":6231.523,"text":"那這個醫療院所有在做減碳啊比如說像高雄大同醫院啊他們說再怎麼減怎麼減也能減到18%而已這到底是怎麼一回事因為我們醫療院所都是那些都是要低溫像核磁共振什麼什麼那些轉流照射那個都是要18、19度的冷氣吹24小時365天的這要減碳你也沒辦法減"},{"start":6234.344,"end":6253.096,"text":"我那空調是佔50%的所有電費阿傑你跟我講的是說要讓空調啦什麼的耗電能夠減低嘛所以叫醫療院所安心的跟著彭副董去做阿不然就剩你了阿醫療院所幹不下去要怎麼處理"},{"start":6254.916,"end":6275.727,"text":"醫療院所呢,我也特別這個問題有去問過,有些收碳稅稅的國家,醫療院所都沒有收啦,所以各位委員可以放心但是未來會不會有馬上收,因為這個是救人的,所以我們不會主動來處理這一塊那目前我們現在是幫醫療院所,如果是8000千瓦以上的公私立醫院,我們現在跟經濟部合組一個深度節能團隊"},{"start":6276.847,"end":6279.929,"text":"所以你是找民間的一些資源來做一個團隊來輔導所有大中小型醫院如何來檢探嗎對沒錯"},{"start":6301.86,"end":6322.204,"text":"好,那這樣的話,我們要如何轉述給所有的醫療院所,就是,要這樣說,叫他們大家稍安勿躁,因為那個環境部會做最好妥適的安排,然後會幫我們組團隊來輔導,然後看看能不能再減碳,再減。"},{"start":6325.285,"end":6344.282,"text":"最後一個問題還是問,像這個醫療耗材、胃藥耗材那個產生的碳的,到底一個東西出來,譬如一瓶點滴出來,耗了多少碳,碳足跡等等,這個要界定清楚啦。我看你都這樣阿札公公的、青菜公公的,有的說3噸就3噸,你做2噸掉2噸,這樣是不良化的。"},{"start":6349.145,"end":6376.641,"text":"有兩種,一個是自願性減碳,那個是大家自己去提,漢族記我們這邊是碳費是比較嚴格的,一定要真的去盤查認證,碳費出來才可以,所以那個都有一定的標準這個是方面部長要用心好,謝謝好,我在這邊做以下宣告,在王振旭委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘接下來請盧憲伊委員發言"},{"start":6387.555,"end":6388.075,"text":"主席有請部長請彭部長"},{"start":6395.553,"end":6418.379,"text":"我們先談這個碳費的時候我們先看一下世界的趨勢因為我在大運的時候有講過很奇怪就是我們的World Bank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金那我們是10月7號才宣布的也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?"},{"start":6418.979,"end":6426.164,"text":"沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了"},{"start":6427.086,"end":6448.68,"text":"這是人家建議的啦 那我們還是委員 委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定那我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊 我們是在9塊 那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個 是你之前有先去做盤查嗎 還是做調查 還是做怎麼樣的一個結論 會有300塊的這樣一個定價"},{"start":6451.842,"end":6469.919,"text":"這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPI GDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢"},{"start":6470.519,"end":6485.777,"text":"每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會 這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆是怎麼訂來的?"},{"start":6487.08,"end":6504.873,"text":"20兆是看實際的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式"},{"start":6505.353,"end":6520.008,"text":"對 我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底"},{"start":6521.208,"end":6545.045,"text":"如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳"},{"start":6545.265,"end":6563.157,"text":"如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要"},{"start":6563.897,"end":6583.766,"text":"拉到這一點就是說是不是有可能我們的淨化補償會從這個所謂的我們的綠色存底來做一個結合或者是說去考量一個方法能不能把這個淨化補償也當作是一個綠色存底然後當作是基金的一個規模然後以後如果再運用金額的上面是不是也可以援助我們人民會這邊的經費籌措"},{"start":6586.287,"end":6612.003,"text":"如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室棲林管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分"},{"start":6612.543,"end":6624.72,"text":"那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界"},{"start":6627.199,"end":6640.609,"text":"報告委員,其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話,它的費率是很低的,而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值,然後再乘以,那K值是2.5萬噸嗎?所以你的第16頁Page16是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎?對對對"},{"start":6648.919,"end":6675.632,"text":"那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?"},{"start":6676.305,"end":6677.606,"text":"我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到?"},{"start":6700.168,"end":6700.568,"text":"所以這個難易度"},{"start":6724.907,"end":6744.112,"text":"有差別,但是委員可以看一下我們很多前20大排碳大戶的ESG報告其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了所以這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業但是這個部分還是屬於經濟部要幫忙的層次"},{"start":6750.054,"end":6751.695,"text":"大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費"},{"start":6762.677,"end":6765.718,"text":"每個國家不一樣,歐洲的負稅很高,收入也很高,例如瑞典是137美元"},{"start":6782.023,"end":6799.628,"text":"那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛"},{"start":6800.288,"end":6820.83,"text":"所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出"},{"start":6822.017,"end":6837.902,"text":"包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出"},{"start":6838.522,"end":6863.825,"text":"目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?委員報委員那個真的很辛苦啊這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長"},{"start":6866.052,"end":6888.927,"text":"好,謝謝盧憲伊委員的發言接下來請接下來請劉建國委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長劉委員,早"},{"start":6896.178,"end":6910.397,"text":"部長早部長你可以大概跟委員會做個報告114年度的環境部的總預算案含基金就全部大約是多少然後113年又是多少112年又是多少3年就好"},{"start":6912.119,"end":6938.218,"text":"明年的預算177億韓基金然後去年的話應該是170就今年的話173左右我們少了一點多億少了一點多億那112呢112就是112應該也是173億左右是這樣嗎因為我只看這兩年我印象這兩年處理這兩年我知道那我問三年嘛不然可以提供嗎"},{"start":6940.526,"end":6942.406,"text":"為什麼要把環保署變成環境部?理由何在?"},{"start":6971.69,"end":6982.259,"text":"理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代"},{"start":6985.216,"end":7012.869,"text":"部長請簡單回答報委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的"},{"start":7013.189,"end":7029.577,"text":"因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加"},{"start":7032.855,"end":7056.61,"text":"應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不正完檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的數據增檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。"},{"start":7057.671,"end":7079.899,"text":"我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部"},{"start":7080.879,"end":7108.56,"text":"的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦這第一點"},{"start":7110.922,"end":7134.028,"text":"第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供優惠利率,有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼,他們都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,那如果依照300元來計算,台電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億,這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額。"},{"start":7140.03,"end":7145.154,"text":"臺電、中油都表示再可負擔的範圍同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低"},{"start":7158.144,"end":7178.349,"text":"但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳費不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對 沒錯但是在昨天有沒有報去委區看這個東西這個碳費恐令翁部長葉子優綠色通本"},{"start":7179.129,"end":7195.075,"text":"他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法他認為多項項目這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於這是重點由於我國的碳費價格比國際匯率高"},{"start":7196.315,"end":7217.771,"text":"加上基本工資、電費同步調升那企業營運成本勢必要調高嘛那最後一句話喔最後一句話中小企業面臨成本漲也會順勢調整價格最後帶動萬物皆漲你還沒回答之前我先肯定不啦還不漲在昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上"},{"start":7219.713,"end":7238.699,"text":"就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦?包委員其實第一個啦大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬"},{"start":7239.219,"end":7262.891,"text":"也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的"},{"start":7263.231,"end":7264.533,"text":"不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒"},{"start":7283.09,"end":7302.712,"text":"地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了OK好但是不知道你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案"},{"start":7303.803,"end":7317.697,"text":"到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?"},{"start":7318.85,"end":7347.734,"text":"我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以嗎一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦"},{"start":7348.474,"end":7361.973,"text":"都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧"},{"start":7366.938,"end":7371.46,"text":"第二件事情 匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的我這邊具體要求 是不是可以從雲林開始"},{"start":7382.623,"end":7405.355,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長再來 你看齁 部長你也講了吼 碳水如鞭越快上路越好到過去齁 過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼 她也是淵娟如鞭了她希望越快上路越好 但是初期可能大家都會朝這個方向這個目的目標去做 她減量 她也會一直持續做"},{"start":7406.135,"end":7424.664,"text":"但他如果把它當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講的那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的範圍裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副"},{"start":7425.66,"end":7446.732,"text":"還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費"},{"start":7447.893,"end":7473.706,"text":"不是從要去做積極減碳的方向走如果他把它變成商業,企業把它也變成成本化之後你們有什麼樣的因應的作為我沒有看到這個報告好,委員其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦"},{"start":7475.367,"end":7475.567,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7489.821,"end":7513.713,"text":"所謂這樣說嘛對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委員會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦"},{"start":7515.114,"end":7542.392,"text":"碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長了1200塊"},{"start":7545.374,"end":7568.285,"text":"是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好"},{"start":7569.486,"end":7580.043,"text":"所以如果按照這個1200塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們4年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易"},{"start":7581.49,"end":7607.55,"text":"為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嗎?對不對?阿他如果有充分的時間,他也把他計算在他的成本裡面,阿就不像剛剛你處理的那樣現在就是說,如果一千二的話,我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受,現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望,因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額,所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好"},{"start":7607.79,"end":7611.094,"text":"總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500"},{"start":7625.996,"end":7650.324,"text":"但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來"},{"start":7652.685,"end":7666.192,"text":"我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係,主席再給我一分鐘就好,那個精華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?是那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?"},{"start":7673.191,"end":7693.669,"text":"那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?"},{"start":7696.102,"end":7714.832,"text":"跟委員報告,這是在我們產業延期管理局在處理,當初進度因為疫情影響慢了,所以提出這樣的一個展延的要求這個是業者他不得已的一個措施,那我們會來看他實際提出的情況,因為當初他是環評承諾執行進度已經到96.5了"},{"start":7719.954,"end":7735.75,"text":"他為了剩下這3點多趴他要再展延18個月你們經濟部沒有意見我知道齁這是產業局在管沒有錯啦齁但是當時在整個組織下過在調整調整的過程裡面我在那個第在四網法治委員會我特別要求這件事情"},{"start":7736.789,"end":7753.861,"text":"那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?"},{"start":7754.827,"end":7755.908,"text":"接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":7783.61,"end":7786.873,"text":"謝謝主席有請彭部長還有經濟部產業發展署楊署長王委員早"},{"start":7795.15,"end":7821.042,"text":"部長早讓地球可以深呼吸所有地球上的生物可以深呼吸台灣的民眾可以放心地深呼吸我想這是今天要跟部長討論的事情那近年減碳的政策真的非常重要所以我們要走對的路做對的事那部長有多少信心"},{"start":7822.602,"end":7823.822,"text":"關於碳費的部分先請教一下有關於當這個碳費拍板以後"},{"start":7845.508,"end":7865.253,"text":"當然各界反應會有不一樣的一些想法那請問部長在這個拍板之前有跟經濟部這邊有做多少的一些互相的討論那為什麼碳會拍板定案以後經濟部會表達遺憾這部分可不可以請兩位簡單做個說明"},{"start":7867.713,"end":7889.41,"text":"報告委員這個費率的制定是碳費審議委員會來定義但是我們在形成一個決策的時候的確有進行跨部會的協商包含跟我院長也都有報告過這個事情不過最後其實還是審議委員會來決定那其實我也很尊重這個經濟部因為經濟部是從產業的角度發聲所以其實我們也會跟著他們積極來協調討論這個事情"},{"start":7891.511,"end":7892.992,"text":"請問經濟部,你們如何替產業發聲?遺憾跟未來發生中間有沒有什麼連結?"},{"start":7915.069,"end":7930.038,"text":"是 謝謝經濟部也是碳費審議委員會裡面的一個成員那我們是針對目前各行各業所面對的一個產業環境認為大家應該要可以負擔得起然後可以用穩健的方式來做處理"},{"start":7930.538,"end":7930.718,"text":"主席"},{"start":7956.544,"end":7961.345,"text":"了解,所以希望往後就不要遺憾,而是如何共同努力往前走。好,那謝謝署長"},{"start":7983.208,"end":8009.958,"text":"那再過來是有關的請教 署長可以請回座 謝謝碳費專款的使用剛剛很多委員都有請教了部長那針對於未來碳費預計會有60億元左右的這個碳費的收取那請問一下這個部長有列這麼多的層面需要去處理的部分那在執行過程當中目前有沒有計畫要怎麼分配"},{"start":8010.918,"end":8029.236,"text":"剛剛部長也提到很多教育面還有相關的調試面等等那部長也很用心的在部裡面做了這一個這麼好的資料可以讓民眾做參考所以如何分配這個碳費的收入目前部長有沒有初步的規劃"},{"start":8030.697,"end":8048.208,"text":"報告委員這個其實全球我個人是希望說這個60億放大10倍啦600億就是把民眾的錢這個大家的企業錢有更好的效益來做使用但是呢這個如何按照氣候變遷因應法的這個原則去定義那這個是要成立一個委員會"},{"start":8049.108,"end":8064.565,"text":"目前委員會我所知道是說我會來擔任這個主席然後來訂這個規則請一些各方面的委員來參與還有各個部會所以目前細節怎麼用我們還沒有訂那預計明年才會開始草擬這些事情"},{"start":8065.259,"end":8087.287,"text":"好,我們希望這個效益可以極大化對那再過來有關於成立基金的部分部長目前也規劃有3個基金可以來協助整體的這些處理的要求那包括綠色成長基金預計預計或者是說會預注100億元那可是我們看到好像要爭取"},{"start":8088.649,"end":8104.427,"text":"那到底這兩者之間有多少的落差那再過來就是綠色金融創新的部分什麼時候有好的平台的產生讓這個保險業者可以把這樣的資金搭上綠色產業那這兩部分也麻煩部長幫忙說明"},{"start":8105.308,"end":8122.023,"text":"委員第一個是國發基金我們是已經獲得國發會主委口頭上的承諾他覺得這是非常好的而且他也承諾我100億用完之後還可以再想辦法然後第一個是這個現在我們正在寫申請書然後因為我們國發基金已經有好幾個部會"},{"start":8122.944,"end":8126.887,"text":"致於綠色金融創新是跟金管會那金管會其實他也很熱心的協助我們找保險公司能夠來談這個資金的取得這個都不是政府的原來預算的錢"},{"start":8153.027,"end":8174.812,"text":"目前的確已經還不做得成效但是也遇到一些問題就是說裡面的細節上例如說做S口做深入節能有一定的風險如何去擔保我們還是遇到一些細節上的問題我們還在解決當中但是這個應該未來一兩個月內會有結果那第三個因為前面兩個如果完成之後我們更希望的是鼓勵我們國內的創投業者"},{"start":8176.132,"end":8204.098,"text":"能夠來投資進來因為國際上這種氣候科技這種進領的量非常的大一年全球大概有一千億美金的這個數值所以我們也希望我們國內的創投業者也可以來關心國內的這樣的相關的業者可以來做這個事情那其實呢也跟委員報告我們剛剛統計的一個資料我們國內在一些這個求職平臺這種所謂綠色工作的人才一個月平均大概有兩萬個新的工作的這個機會我們也就希望"},{"start":8205.319,"end":8214.905,"text":"從這個綠色這個就是賴清德賴總統的綠色成長的戰略裡面我們是不是可以創造一些新的動能來幫助台灣這個是現在我們環境部面對這樣的一個新的態度"},{"start":8215.667,"end":8238.736,"text":"我們也希望讓這些需求在人力上的供應或者是未來的發展可以更全面再過來就是要請教部長有關於醫療機構減碳的部分非常謝謝也非常肯定部長在最後面幫我們的醫療機構在這個費用的部分做了一些正向的一種允諾剛剛蘇委員也談到這個事情"},{"start":8242.457,"end":8266.494,"text":"請教一下我們也知道其實醫療部門雖然所佔的這個使用的量不是很大 氣體排放佔了0.9可是如果把醫療供應鏈加進去事實上真的是不少 有到4.4%那未來在這部分的政策方向如何能夠具體協助醫院來做節能的這個方案 不知道目前的規劃如何"},{"start":8267.074,"end":8283.198,"text":"目前跟委員報告就是說我們現在經濟部跟環境部正在研議一個就是深度節能就是X口的下一代那目前來看的話我們經濟部的團隊會負責公立醫院、部立醫院那整個私立醫院是由環境部這邊來負責所以我們會針對全台灣的這個醫院的"},{"start":8287.179,"end":8287.199,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8306.209,"end":8329.183,"text":"好,因為我們也知道醫學中心那個能源佔用真的是電力的部分非常的高的爬速,將近有八成那在電力耗用裡面空調又佔了55%其他照明、插座等等那在要更新啦,或者是要讓這些設備可以更為發揮它的效能真的是也是一筆重大的費用所以我們很期待"},{"start":8330.223,"end":8330.343,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝部長"},{"start":8357.294,"end":8359.663,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員,現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8990.896,"end":8995.379,"text":"好,現在繼續開會接下來請圖全級委員發言好,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長請彭部長圖委員,早"},{"start":9013.624,"end":9034.337,"text":"部長我請問一下上個禮拜我們有確定未來5年碳費費率的標準已經確定了嗎?是不是?沒有沒有,就是指現在起徵點的費率那如果2030年以後的費率他是一個建議並不是說一定要這樣所以我們現在起徵就是以每噸300元對那針對這個起徵一般的費率每噸300元部長針對這部分你滿意嗎?"},{"start":9040.48,"end":9041.741,"text":"那你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎?"},{"start":9057.853,"end":9073.428,"text":"如果說大家很願意減碳,我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率如果每一家企業,我們也評估過這些企業應該都可以走到優惠費率如果都走到優惠費率的話,可以幫我們國家減碳14%就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好"},{"start":9074.192,"end":9077.153,"text":"報告委員其實我們算的整體而言其實大概對CPI的衝擊是很低"},{"start":9093.621,"end":9117.428,"text":"而且其實大多數的企業是可以接受的但是我也必須跟委員談成仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業他又是排攤大戶他也積極面臨到這個轉型的困難所以某一些企業的確我們有觀察到這個所謂公正轉型的問題所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業"},{"start":9118.428,"end":9138.763,"text":"所以我們現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做"},{"start":9139.483,"end":9147.941,"text":"那對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有完全好像都是受制於經濟部"},{"start":9149.506,"end":9171.393,"text":"報告委員其實不會的因為我們行政院有一個永續會永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組那我本身呢也是裡面的這個這個副召集人所以其實我也在裡面每個月大概每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議所以我們都積極參與各種檢探的工作我們也有一些發言權有一些建議權所以很多的部位的檢探我們"},{"start":9172.333,"end":9175.394,"text":"所以部長的說法針對這次的碳費草案上路所以你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界各界你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論是不是?"},{"start":9196.118,"end":9197.239,"text":"因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講照理來講好像你們針對這部分都討論過那應該有達成一些共識吧?"},{"start":9212.769,"end":9238.403,"text":"其實基本上齁,這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁,要讓大家完全滿意齁,這個是不可能的事情啦,我也有充滿的認知。那委員在那邊寫的說不停,我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情,但是畢竟要收費齁,這個要課稅齁,收費課稅在任何一個國家,都是會被不習慣的,被討厭的,所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦。"},{"start":9238.683,"end":9252.799,"text":"所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這部分"},{"start":9259.633,"end":9285.195,"text":"那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會 報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相通途但是我們認為在這個某些環節我必須堅持我的理念但是我也尊重他們這幫產業爭取的這個理念所以"},{"start":9287.837,"end":9315.695,"text":"這個的確會有一點不一樣但是我不會有這種被洗臉的感覺啦好其實針對我們看到我國針對這個碳定價制度喔在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們了解喔你看日本、韓國、中國、新加坡、印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊"},{"start":9316.275,"end":9342.014,"text":"然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套"},{"start":9342.934,"end":9366.619,"text":"包委員其實我們不會再對企業的輔導是一體的來做啦吼那碳定價呢其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動啦那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題啦"},{"start":9367.939,"end":9388.307,"text":"我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論"},{"start":9394.609,"end":9411.257,"text":"碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告"},{"start":9411.897,"end":9439.275,"text":"因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度我們國人我們國家是一個肯定的所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界"},{"start":9440.215,"end":9456.793,"text":"甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表"},{"start":9457.293,"end":9485.847,"text":"那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實倒衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心"},{"start":9486.147,"end":9502.596,"text":"所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排10大污染源請問部長你知道這個10大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎"},{"start":9503.856,"end":9505.298,"text":"所以我們看這個從2023統計前兩年的資料來看這10大碳排其實"},{"start":9521.896,"end":9542.885,"text":"幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策"},{"start":9544.085,"end":9562.471,"text":"假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去"},{"start":9563.231,"end":9584.872,"text":"是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時候"},{"start":9584.892,"end":9602.405,"text":"所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊"},{"start":9603.366,"end":9619.147,"text":"沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的"},{"start":9620.101,"end":9645.085,"text":"希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的"},{"start":9648.479,"end":9662.731,"text":"中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施"},{"start":9664.313,"end":9677.671,"text":"這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮"},{"start":9681.736,"end":9710.662,"text":"對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝"},{"start":9713.476,"end":9717.677,"text":"十月是環境部一個很特別的月份也是許多年輕人會關心的你知道叫什麼月嗎十月"},{"start":9746.019,"end":9770.478,"text":"這是很多年輕人會關心的議題所以全台灣每年的手機銷售量是500到600萬台但是我們的回收率卻只有12%您在這個月的許許多多的新聞稿都有宣導這件事情因為手機裡面有很多貴重金屬對於資源的永續非常的重要那我在許多新聞稿都有找到說"},{"start":9771.198,"end":9777.749,"text":"我們的手機回收率只有12%那您知道跟世界各國比起來我們的"},{"start":9779.32,"end":9805.437,"text":"數據是?我所掌握的資料是像歐美日他們大概是15%我們有一段落差對那為什麼我們做不到呢?從實際上來看的話如何手機賣出去如何回收其實還是要從源頭來做起所以其實這段時間我們跟手機的廠商一個一個去談因為其實有些的產業每個產業不一樣像有些大牌的大家常用的其實他們都想要自己的回收體系算他自己的"},{"start":9805.737,"end":9808.158,"text":"你有定一個目標是2026年要提升3%提升到大概是日韓歐美的低標會不會覺得這個定的有點太低了"},{"start":9834.773,"end":9860.783,"text":"因為我一直跟貴部門要一些RAW DATA來看我想知道說從一開始有手機回收你們來統計這個比率至今可是網站也沒有然後這個RAW DATA也沒有所以其實不知道你們這個12%是怎麼計算出來的我們這個手機回收月是由我們各業者提供另外就是我們在經濟隊回收的這個數量來加起來的"},{"start":9862.887,"end":9871.064,"text":"我有稍微查了一下,其實回收的比例這麼低,大概因為管道很麻煩,誘因不足,還有其實民眾很擔心自己的個資"},{"start":9872.574,"end":9899.264,"text":"因此我看了一下國外的做法在這邊也提供給部長因為你們是AI內閣你們更應該要創新有創意所以歐美的經驗是他們常常會在手機的訊息通知這個民眾回來回收還有一些回收的管道另外他們的廠商是會開立這個手機刪除的證明等等讓他們安心還有一些足夠的誘因下一張給您看一下這個"},{"start":9902.188,"end":9918.337,"text":"手機回收月等等活動內容其實是很豐富的可是呢你知道你們缺了最大的市佔率叫做蘋果嗎?哈囉對這個你知道嗎?我知道可是以前有蘋果你知道嗎?知道"},{"start":9919.97,"end":9938.725,"text":"原因在哪裡?這個是很多人很好奇的地方。這個就是因為在一個做法上面,可能他們覺得這樣的方式比較想要自己創一套。所以這個才是為什麼我們要把手機法式化的關係,就是你不能有些人他覺得認同就來做,那不認同就不做,這樣不行。"},{"start":9940.146,"end":9961.018,"text":"因為他現在的市佔率大概是24.3%而且很多直營門市呢他持續做救機換新機的方案他會發現民間二手機的回收量蘋果回收佔了56.3%排行是第一名所以你如果沒有把Apple納進來的話其實你要達到你希望跟國際接軌的數據是很難的"},{"start":9963.808,"end":9990.727,"text":"對,方委員其實我剛好前幾個禮拜幫家人去換手機那家人手機摔壞了那我去我以前去蘋果他就會把我回收走了那我們去一般的這個通訊行他就說回收率一支300塊那就以消費者的角度來說的話所以這個就是造成說一般的企業他主動像你主席仔細看這個蘋果的這個業績報告他的回收率是他重要的指標對,所以你真的應該要說服他可以跟你配合嗎?"},{"start":9991.327,"end":10019.207,"text":"但是因為手機業者他是最主動的但是有些的業者沒有那麼的主動這個是您之前環境部以前叫做環保署的時候110年的活動是有跟所有的10大品牌還有5大電信合作這個發布在之前110年的新聞稿中包括有Apple可是現在升格到環境部照理說應該有更大規模更高層級的合作案這個是今天希望可以"},{"start":10020.007,"end":10041.578,"text":"請你們可以注意的然後未來可以多加改善我們未來會把它提升但是委員提到說能不能有更好的目標我會再跟我們團隊再仔細再討論有沒有更精進的作為這是近期有看到在前瞻計畫第5期裡面看到部長有提出一個淨零排碳氣候法制策略精進計畫只規劃做8個月但是花了1.7億"},{"start":10046.741,"end":10056.277,"text":"其中主要的工作就是包括建立碳足跡係數資料庫這件事,您知道嗎?知道,這個是我們要呼應國際的要求,有一個冷卻行動的計畫"},{"start":10057.841,"end":10058.842,"text":"那請問這兩個的計畫內容是不是有重疊的部分"},{"start":10082.302,"end":10109.929,"text":"報告委員這兩個不一樣一個是這個是範疇三啦範疇三是很難去計算的那這個是這個是冷卻行動雖然名稱上面是一樣的但是針對這個碳足跡還有係數資料庫這個項目是不是您想要再擴充1111更多還是有什麼其他的我們請我們署長跟委員報告因為目前在網站上公佈的這個碳足跡的係數都是民間他們自願性要做碳足跡的這個"},{"start":10110.669,"end":10111.309,"text":"所以這1.7是專門針對範疇3還是之前那個?"},{"start":10141.069,"end":10164.668,"text":"1.7有一部分是針對範疇3然後另外呢看這個這是您的網站裡面有14個單位啊有跟你們合作做這些探索系的揭露那當然比如說高鐵或是華航這些有關股為主的單位都覺得是理所當然很能理解可是剛有許多委員提到的台鐵台電也都是公家機關但為什麼你們"},{"start":10165.549,"end":10170.374,"text":"到目前只有合作了14個而沒有一些指標可以再往上增加呢?"},{"start":10171.338,"end":10172.399,"text":"這個早上有許多委員已經關心了所有這個"},{"start":10198.924,"end":10199.385,"text":"提出具體的改善措施"},{"start":10222.304,"end":10237.893,"text":"這個我們跟這個八家醫院都有開會啦衛福部都有開會啦齁那事實上我們也希望說讓他們做源頭管制是最重要的對可是衛福部說跟跟這個醫院不相關您覺得呢"},{"start":10238.444,"end":10242.225,"text":"那正在環境部的立場你有沒有一些想法對於我們周遭醫院周遭這些住戶有沒有產生一些健康的影響做出評估或是調查"},{"start":10269.004,"end":10287.651,"text":"這個是我們先對水的部分,他們放流水,然後他對環境的這個影響,雖然說他們現在沒有立即的危害,但是委員提到的所以附近的這個住戶水體的,我們是針對水體啦,沒有對醫院附近的這個住戶的衝擊。對,但是我們調查這個其實主要就是害怕未來這些抗藥性嗎?"},{"start":10289.15,"end":10315.642,"text":"沒關係這邊有一個具體的建議這邊有提供部長一個想法行政院近期有核定一個國家級防疫一體抗生素的抗藥性管理行動計畫等等會在114年正式啟動總共編列了19億元那其中呢 疾管署的副署長羅一鈞就有講到說醫療機構的放流水管理並沒有納入在這樣子的計畫內左院長特別要求環境部應該主動監控"},{"start":10317.483,"end":10317.503,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":10337.609,"end":10364.73,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們例行都有一個這個調查的一個計畫只是分年度在做但當然資源越多我們的這個範圍跟頻度會加強那這一部分的至於預算的部分我們都有在相關的計畫裡面有所以你們已經夠了嗎因為你們兩年才找了8家而且這8家還都有問題不是我我們是在109到112基本上就已經用了34年的時間那做了"},{"start":10365.27,"end":10365.29,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":10385.169,"end":10410.685,"text":"有,我現在已經找到你們有預告草案,你們想要修正這個水汙染的防治措施還有管理辦法,但是施行日期要等到115年1月1號才開始,這個部長您知道嗎?知道,知道對,所以其實有一年的時間是...讓他們改善啦,讓他們改善好,感覺這有點太久啦,所以在這邊希望是可以請你們可以積極主動爭取,因為行政院那個預算的"},{"start":10411.425,"end":10411.785,"text":"請柯之恩委員發言"},{"start":10443.331,"end":10444.011,"text":"第一回合很顯然是環境部領先"},{"start":10459.016,"end":10464.318,"text":"我們比較好奇的地方就是你看我們目前為止大概做到300雖然我必須要強調經濟部還有環團都不太滿意但是呢你特別規劃到5年之後可能要從300拉到3000但我的重點是你目前碳費的徵收的對象竟涵蓋全國的50%的排放量"},{"start":10488.766,"end":10504.758,"text":"所以你這樣有辦法達到你明顯減碳的成效嗎?部長報委員其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率不要繳那麼多錢的話五十一百對那那個是有效的14%我們是鼓勵而且我們也其實看了這些企業的業績報告他們大概都可以符合優惠費率"},{"start":10504.838,"end":10529.08,"text":"但是我也看到報告我還是要特別強調你看以我們剛剛很多委員都問到這個問題到底你2026年你拿到60億你到底要怎麼樣來做分配可是我看看你的回應都是說我們會有個專門的委員會我們有一些事情的細則我們在討論對我們來說我們同樣問同樣的問題同樣關切的問題可是你的回應都好像要拖到明年才有辦法解決包括大家所"},{"start":10529.52,"end":10558.165,"text":"告知的這個這個綠色的這個環境部的小金庫你當然不同意這是一個綠色國發經濟100億還有另外的3個所謂的基金但是我還是要強調你這個部分裡面你永遠告訴我是明年才有包括大家非常關切的這個這個一些的方式那我為什麼要特別提出來你看看到底你有沒有辦法保障這個高污染的地方可以得到適度的一個分配像以高雄為例它就是三高啊高排碳"},{"start":10559.125,"end":10578.332,"text":"高污染高碳費那我也沒辦法保證你看我們的排放量是佔全國的20%喔光是我們所有的企業要繳交110億元喔那你到底有多少比例你可以回饋到我們地方部長我要求的是有多少比例你起碼要告訴我們一下否則你永遠告訴我明年明年沒有那麼多明年"},{"start":10578.712,"end":10605.406,"text":"報告委員那個碳費後年年中才可能會進帳所以我們現在提的那你現在後年但是大家要插雷彈那你告訴我多少比例可以回饋到地方這個現在我沒有辦法給委員發布這就是為什麼你們剛剛公佈裡面300說大家都想要看到細節然後你永遠告訴我們拋出一個300然後呢後面到什麼我們再看這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間大家認為永續非常重要你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家的"},{"start":10606.727,"end":10621.851,"text":"我會讓那個部長跟這個署長有機會包括我已經特別提到了你的碳鏈殘很多人藉機來開課你的碳認證因為我們不知道我們這個上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證還有碳洩漏我認為應該改名叫碳破口會比較好進口的產品沒有得不需要去繳納而且你告訴我2025年你有臺版的CPAM臺費上路這些都是目前為止我們所看到你因為碳費"},{"start":10634.974,"end":10636.155,"text":"您有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎?"},{"start":10662.27,"end":10684.24,"text":"我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套接下來你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了"},{"start":10687.742,"end":10695.988,"text":"光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個"},{"start":10714.002,"end":10720.245,"text":"所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓。"},{"start":10735.812,"end":10745.802,"text":"當然這個都有留待空間最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的這就是我們目前為止所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎這是傳統產業"},{"start":10749.315,"end":10762.045,"text":"報告委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來"},{"start":10769.471,"end":10787.197,"text":"所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是"},{"start":10787.597,"end":10787.957,"text":"我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有"},{"start":10814.958,"end":10814.978,"text":"委員８"},{"start":10842.165,"end":10871.343,"text":"報告委員西貝明年年中才會開始生效然後我們是預先的要探深報比照歐盟的敬禮我沒有落後我是照那個方式在進行的對我剛剛只問你說剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分包括我說你對於我們地方高污染地方你的怎麼分配的比例等等之類的我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後我們可以進一步的了解而不是等到明年所以我們大家覺得說以高雄來說我們所有的產業都炒在蛋啊因為我們不知道你最後的速報"},{"start":10871.843,"end":10873.463,"text":"謝謝科智恩委員的發言接下來請李坤城委員發言"},{"start":10908.496,"end":10910.48,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請彭部長請彭部長議員好部長好,辛苦了這一個預計2026年要開增碳費"},{"start":10921.363,"end":10921.383,"text":"對 沒錯"},{"start":10946.33,"end":10947.752,"text":"根據臺灣永續能源研究基金會的資料顯示臺灣的醫療照護碳"},{"start":10956.055,"end":10961.696,"text":"主機佔全國比例高於全球平均4.6%全世界平均4.4%台灣醫院用電量在非生產事業性試驗排名第一佔比16.9%比車站、軌道等運輸合計13.54%還要高"},{"start":10979.061,"end":10999.118,"text":"總統才會相當的關心醫療院所檢探的一些事情,也曾經打電話給部長講這件事情。從打電話到現在,一個多月了,想請教一下部長,關於醫療院所檢探這方面的事情,有做了哪一些改變?"},{"start":10999.258,"end":11003.563,"text":"臺灣第一次環境部跟衛福部合辦一個活動,然後總統看到新聞之後,其實總統跟院長都有打電話給我,說這個活動不錯"},{"start":11017.099,"end":11044.056,"text":"但是後面的這個給醫院的資金在哪裡所以其實也謝謝總統跟院長關心這個事情讓我們有一個動力所以其實第一個是國發基金所以他們我們就協調了這個國發基金是不是有一個100億能夠來做這種幫助這種能減碳的工作的投資那第二個呢就是我們找了金管會找這個保險基金能夠來合作因為這個ESCO其實要蠻多錢的過去我們政府都是用補助的形式從馬政府時代就是用補助可是這個補助的量"},{"start":11044.616,"end":11047.197,"text":"目前的成果是應該在近期應該就會來公布目前的確是有成果"},{"start":11072.483,"end":11090.899,"text":"那所以總統跟院長關心之後就去想辦法說那個錢從哪裡來要怎麼樣去協助我們醫院來做這個減碳是不是對沒錯沒錯這就是你剛回答大概就是我想問你的三個問題就是第一個環境部會採取哪一些措施跟衛福部合作協助醫院減碳那我們有投入多少資源跟經費呢"},{"start":11091.859,"end":11106.233,"text":"還是都沒有?都是完全靠你剛才講的一個是國發基金100億那也還沒有確定嘛現在正在申請當中申請當中國發會有同意了嗎?口頭上同意口頭上同意那恭喜你那第二個就是說"},{"start":11107.154,"end":11127.797,"text":"這個有沒有規劃將碳費的部分收入協助醫院執行一月十幾的改革目前其實是因為衛福部的預算是我們的好幾十倍啊所以這其實這個部分哪一方面的預算是你的好幾十倍整體預算啊所以基本上這個邱部長跟我說碳費有沒有辦法給他其實我是說碳費我們現在才目前規劃才60億恐怕有點困難"},{"start":11128.658,"end":11147.869,"text":"但是他的預算這麼多也不是說都拿來做這一個減碳的或是ESG的改革嘛所以你當初這樣回答的話那邱部長當然覺得說那你這個給我們一些資源投入這個協助醫院來改善這個ESG他的用意應該是這樣子啦不是在比較說兩個部會的這個預算誰多誰寡我們現在講說是投入這個減碳的這個費用"},{"start":11153.192,"end":11170.07,"text":"到底有多少?當然環境部是負責這方面的所以說還是沒有規劃說如果預計收到的這個碳費之後要來協助這一個醫院作業時機的改革?報告委員其實如果我用保險的資金來幫忙的話其實不用花到醫院的錢這是一個比較市場化的一個做法"},{"start":11170.39,"end":11193.189,"text":"那就是第三個那有跟金管會討論過了嗎?有,討論過了我們跟主委還有他們保險公司我們都密集的在開會但是我也跟委員談成還是遇到一些小問題需要政府的擔保等等我們正在處理這個細節那金管會的態度勒?金管會是樂觀其成那他有沒有協助你找一些保險業者過來談?有那個彭主委非常的這個認真熱心幫我們處理這個事情"},{"start":11194.81,"end":11208.023,"text":"那我是希望說當然希望藉由民間的資金來做這個深度節能就是你剛才講的EXCO這部分因為民間資金投進來那其實政府也不用付這麼多的錢進去有一些是保險業他們先帶電然後節能之後這個錢我們再還回去沒錯"},{"start":11211.967,"end":11227.936,"text":"那現在我看大家也很關心那個CBAN的問題那我就直接先問了這個你有提到說這個產品在我國繳交的碳費確認已經可以支付這個CBAN的碳價了那請問一下有這個官方的書面文字嗎還是只有口頭"},{"start":11228.716,"end":11245.307,"text":"他們書面文字有包含了碳費、碳稅都可以,只要ETS都可以。這有確定嗎?確定確定,那我們不覺得這個書面不完整,我當面的問了非常高層的官員,獲得非常肯定的答案。這就確認了,因為就是你那口頭問是一部分,我是說有這個書面的確定就是說,我們徵收了這個碳費,"},{"start":11249.309,"end":11249.629,"text":"臺灣的西貝因為第一個是"},{"start":11268.348,"end":11268.488,"text":"這個就是說齁"},{"start":11290.736,"end":11314.194,"text":"有來有往啦 大家有做我們當然也要做保護台灣的產業最後一個問題請教 歐盟的碳稅徵收的對象是進口商台灣的碳費的徵收對象是國內業者那未來台灣的碳費的徵收會不會涵蓋進口的貨品主要還是所謂我們碳費徵收的對象他的對應的這種進口商進口的這個業者那就要來收所以會收就對了對對對對好OK好謝謝"},{"start":11316.195,"end":11319.377,"text":"謝謝主席,今天的發言只有5分鐘,我們請部長,所以你回應說盡量快一點好不好?"},{"start":11344.24,"end":11365.538,"text":"好,氣候變遷因應法在立法院通過了之後,環境部裡面也制定了碳費徵收的費率,碳費要從115年開始正式的開徵了。那針對氣候變遷因應法裡面涉及原住民的條文內容,部長你清楚這有哪些條文嗎?針對這些條文,環境部在政策上做了哪些因應,知道嗎?"},{"start":11366.078,"end":11371.601,"text":"為推動自然碳會,政府要跟原住民民族共同推動與管理原住民地區的自然碳會,該區域的新增碳會及相關權益應與原住民族共享。"},{"start":11392.645,"end":11411.096,"text":"政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內的自然碳匯。該區域內新增的碳匯的相關權益應該要跟原住民族共享。涉及原住民族土地的開發、利用或限制應與當地的原住民族諮商並取得同意。"},{"start":11414.958,"end":11417.519,"text":"環境部以前的相關公務人員知道嗎?"},{"start":11440.506,"end":11466.786,"text":"請我們署長回答好,署長你知道嗎?105年不清楚好,你看,你們都不清楚不清楚難怪我們的行政院長他會跟原住民的族人說進法補償是找不到裁員啊我想這就是執政團隊你們根本不知道早在10年前本席就已經在立法院針對原住民進法補償的部分討論我們就在討論碳費的議題了現在知道了吧部長"},{"start":11467.786,"end":11495.094,"text":"報告委員,那個時候該概念是碳稅啦好了,就是已經跟你講過了嘛如果經法補償的金額要提高的話必須要由開徵碳稅之印嘛那你現在碳稅裡面已經有基金了嗎?對吧?112年通過了氣候變遷因應法環境部裡面也按照第32條設立了溫室氣體管理基金然後請問一下基金施政的用途包括哪些呢?"},{"start":11496.845,"end":11501.292,"text":"呃就前委員提的這6項好123456對不對有沒有原住民的部分"},{"start":11502.796,"end":11528.622,"text":"沒有當我們的碳費定價之後在115年開始正式開尊了我們看一下原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃碳匯的原住民經法補償的私有林地同時也有原民匯11萬公頃的公有林地加起來總共18萬公頃的原住民保留地對於台灣的碳排放這個是非常好的"},{"start":11529.262,"end":11557.19,"text":"它是屬於溫室氣體管理基金施政重點的哪一項?你知道嗎?好,你不知道,所以我現在要告訴你涉及原住民族的碳會更包含了森林碳還有位於原住民傳統海域的燃炭我了解的是,碳會的來源是由農業部主責但是部長你更必須清楚了解不管是原住民的私有領地或者是我們的傳統海域"},{"start":11558.61,"end":11579.176,"text":"農業部主管的國有林還有海域還有很多目的事業主管機關要推動的政策他必須回歸到氣候變遷因應法來一起推動而不是你自己環境部啊林業署他在推動國產財我們的竹林更新還有竹產業"},{"start":11580.336,"end":11598.472,"text":"你知道這些政策嗎?你不知道?你可能也不知道森林會根據不同的樹種有不同的碳吸存能力吧?你知道竟然知道竹林是屬於短年生的同時你知道竹林它的碳吸存能力是非常強的所以在產業面也都需要國產材跟竹材"},{"start":11603.256,"end":11606.778,"text":"環境部你作為氣候變遷因應主管的機關,你在精靈碳排的政策上面,難道不應該在政策上面作為統合嗎?部長。報告委員這個是農業部在主責,他也提出放大學。我知道啦,你是主責,那你不應該和鄉聯繫這些嗎?所以,"},{"start":11623.869,"end":11648.593,"text":"契簽法第33條基金的用途根本就沒有用在禁法補償上面嘛所以我在這裡要要求你經營談判還有碳會的更像政策請環境部你要承擔起這個責任你在一個月之內要儘速邀請人民會、農業部、相關部會提出將碳會最大化的執行政策可不可以"},{"start":11649.513,"end":11670.747,"text":"好,委員這個沒有問題,我們會來協調,謝謝謝謝你,一個月之內,好嗎?也把你們開會最後的文字來告訴本席,謝謝好,謝謝高金樹梅委員的發言那我在這邊再做一個重新宣告,等一下在賴士寶委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案好,接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11691.295,"end":11699.677,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。請彭部長。委員早。部長好。"},{"start":11703.613,"end":11725.069,"text":"《最後變遷因應法》第一條定的很清楚落實世代正義、環境正義及公正轉型不論是我們原住民族在台灣一直守護我們的森林所以我們一直善盡的保護台灣環境的責任"},{"start":11730.114,"end":11747.965,"text":"我們看這個氣候變遷因應法的第3條（碳匯只將二氧化碳或其他溫室氣體自排放演化大氣中持續移除或吸收或儲存之樹木、森林、土壤"},{"start":11749.553,"end":11761.761,"text":"海洋地層設施或長守所以這個部分我們不要忘了這個部分然後第11款也提到什麼叫公正轉型這裡面也特別提到"},{"start":11763.462,"end":11788.839,"text":"沿逐民主的穩定的轉型所以這個部分要請當初欽惑變遷因應法本席要提出草案當然有幾條條文是有通過但是也有沒有通過的部分是我們未來要繼續努力的地方欽惑變遷因應法第5條政府應秉持"},{"start":11792.101,"end":11804.792,"text":"減緩與調適並種植原則,確保國土資源永續利用。這裡面也特別要兼顧原住民族的權益。所以這個部分,這個我們看這個整個"},{"start":11807.31,"end":11833.003,"text":"《氣候變遷因應法》第5條也特別提到相關的這些推動自然碳匯政府應以援助民主共同推動及管理援助民主第7次自然碳匯所以這樣的一個前提之下我們看這個我們看這次的整個"},{"start":11836.124,"end":11864.321,"text":"有關碳費所以你們在估算60億的碳費收入60億這樣的一個碳費收入我剛念了這麼多原住民族的條款原住民族對整個碳費的貢獻但是這個基金"},{"start":11865.928,"end":11892.863,"text":"會用到原住民族嗎?這個後年年終才會正式的收到所以我們預計大概是明年會開始會組成這個委員會會來討論這個基金的用途這個部長基金的用途訂的很清楚當初本席有提案但是沒有被接受被碾壓表決沒有通過"},{"start":11895.092,"end":11913.628,"text":"所以這裡面完全沒有完全沒有原住民族的部分但是也不是不能做還是可以畢竟這裡面補助給地方政府地方政府要怎麼去用怎麼樣在裡面的相關的這些"},{"start":11915.791,"end":11929.837,"text":"規定裡面去致應,可以往這個方向去努力嗎?委員這個第3條就是補助中央目的事業主管機關執行溫馨體減量工作的事項那原民如果森林碳會的部分的話可以透過這3項我們來補助給原民會來處理"},{"start":11933.639,"end":11946.393,"text":"當然有這個項目,我剛剛不是講了很多嗎?我們相關的條文也都有提到我們很多原住民族在這個"},{"start":11949.571,"end":11976.434,"text":"包括相關第17條都有相關的這些所以這個部分要請環境部事實上農業部講得很清楚農業部講得很清楚研究民主所附山林當然現在我們的環境部的方向就是說怎麼樣去"},{"start":11978.079,"end":11996.78,"text":"這個去收這個錢然後這個收的錢當然各有各的論點到底這個60億到底算不算多當然這是第一次這個也經過相關的這些程序來辦理但是就整個"},{"start":11998.488,"end":12023.993,"text":"原住民族對碳費的一個貢獻是不可謀滅的所以這個部分要請環境部再訂相關的比較細的規定的時候就成如剛剛部長所講的地方政府執行的時候怎麼能夠給予考量好不好好謝謝"},{"start":12026.084,"end":12030.989,"text":"好謝謝鄭天才委員發言接下來請賴世寶委員發言謝謝主席各位先進有請我們環境部的彭部長以及經濟部的梁署長署長委員好兩位長官好兩位長官好"},{"start":12049.973,"end":12068.58,"text":"委員好,我先請教彭部長,你今天來講的話,你現在碳費要收,當然有些人就提出來了齁,我們現在環境部門過去都有收啊,空污費、水污費、土污費,基本上是污染的,所以CO2是不是就是污染的,是不是?"},{"start":12069.04,"end":12087.41,"text":"過去在環保署時代曾經有一度把這個變成是CO2是污染物但是它是一個溫室氣體不應該變成一個污染物它是不是污染物過去是有這樣定義啦但是其實在國際上應該不是污染物就是一個溫體溫室氣體那現在來講我們看到你現在訂的是碳費一噸300塊對不對對但是針對國內的企業可是國際來講類似歐盟其他我也有提到CBANK"},{"start":12098.216,"end":12124.814,"text":"這個是對於進口的產品來講的話要課這個這個碳費啊那我們這一部分為什麼沒有辦法同時訂出來這讓國內的企業感覺感覺是我競爭已經非常不利了現在更加不利報告委員其實這個是2026年他們才正式實施現在都是事行申報所以其實還有一點時間那他預計他的細節等於是CBAN就是碳邊境調整機制他預計是明年的年終才會把細節提出來"},{"start":12125.575,"end":12126.336,"text":"臺灣版的CBank什麼時候可以出爐?"},{"start":12141.915,"end":12166.854,"text":"出爐等於是研議完了就會很快來出爐但是我們會先用進口的商品就要等於是說例如說水泥進口的水泥就要同時申報它的碳的價值當然是這樣子啊你現在對於水泥現在來講的話水泥就已經課碳費啦是不是來講的話實話一樣啊那國外的這個水泥也進來的國外的實話也進來的為什麼不課當然會啊當然未來會朝這個方向去洗所以可不可以在這裡承諾2026如果來當補充的話"},{"start":12171.357,"end":12180.249,"text":"我們跟歐盟同時同步同步就是我開始實施我開始實施對國內的這些產業我課碳費的同時我就對進口的產品一樣課碳費可以嗎"},{"start":12186.778,"end":12208.954,"text":"我會保障國內產業的要求這個是我一定會承諾那另外一個是立法或是修正的係數其實我們要貼近歐盟所以我一直在觀察歐盟還有鄰近國家其實我們也跟日本上禮拜我也跟日本的官員在討論這個事情既然你看到鄰近國家包括日本、新加坡、歐洲的瑞典、瑞士芬蘭、挪威都是課碳稅不是碳費為什麼你跟人家不一樣"},{"start":12212.686,"end":12231.983,"text":"這個是過去他們制定的但是我是接續他所以我努力把它完整政策的延續但是碳稅跟碳費是有點不一樣稅是大水庫理論就進到財政部去費是專款專用但是整個國際的精神上碳費稅是一體的所以我們基本上是就是可以說是碳稅的一體"},{"start":12233.704,"end":12260.143,"text":"碳費錢在你手上,五百億在你手上,碳費不在你手上,本位主義當然不要啊!報告委員,新加坡的就是碳稅,他們是專款專用,一個是專款專用,一個不是專款專用。日本呢?日本是不是?日本是地球溫暖化對策稅。對嘛,它是稅嘛,進去財政部不一樣,這個來講答案就很簡單嘛,因為你環境部中亂嘛,那你這個五百億你怎麼用?"},{"start":12260.583,"end":12264.345,"text":"沒有500億60億60億那個錯的訊息錯的訊息那再一個錯的訊息啊什麼CPI會增加0.18GDP會增加0.48我有這本的書我再送給委員這裡面只有0.00幾而已"},{"start":12276.973,"end":12277.013,"text":"請問你請問你"},{"start":12295.393,"end":12312.284,"text":"有沒有這種你的message,現在碳費,有人講說你先行,主要3塊嘛,一個碳費一個碳稅,一個是碳排放的總量管制的交易,這3大塊,你現在說我碳費先行"},{"start":12313.547,"end":12315.849,"text":"總量管制就是碳權交易嘛"},{"start":12339.104,"end":12344.671,"text":"對,總量管制的排放交易,就ETS,符合歐洲或是...那個不一樣,那個現在他們推的是這個自主減量的,不一樣。"},{"start":12354.883,"end":12362.447,"text":"這裡面來講國內的企業都不能用也不能買不能賣委員不能這樣說他們是屬於自主減量的自主減量的但是他們未來如果走到總量管制的碳交易他們就有存在的價值跟你講這不一樣他做的就是針對外國外的這個碳權的買賣交易讓你在那裡類似在那裡這個炒股票而已"},{"start":12381.537,"end":12405.31,"text":"他們沒有炒股票,是可以買到比較公信力的你講說可以買到,我就說這個買賣,只要有買賣就有炒作了所以我要跟你強調一個東西就是後面的總量管制的交易是非常重要的沒有這一塊,其實你這總能做什麼我現在正在往那個方向走什麼時候可以有成績?4年內"},{"start":12407.543,"end":12411.004,"text":"我相信這個政策是延續的我們現在處理臨時提案總共有兩案請一併宣讀"},{"start":12437.506,"end":12458.133,"text":"第一案 要求環境部每一年因鄉立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交一份溫室氣體管理基金執行計改善計畫書面報告以維護溫室氣體管理基金使用的震盪性及執行績效提案人委員蘇清泉、廖偉祥、陳金輝第二案 要求環境部應立即協調相關機關"},{"start":12459.774,"end":12461.835,"text":"請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見?遵照辦理"},{"start":12484.173,"end":12507.287,"text":"無異議就遭案通過,那第二案呢?行政單位有沒有意見?跟委員報告,第二案就是有關這個台版C-BAN,那因為剛剛部長的說明,就是我們一定要跟這個歐盟一樣要先從申報開始,所以我們建議在這個文字上面,就是從後面緊述確定台版C-BAN方案,我們建議修改為研議"},{"start":12508.447,"end":12519.43,"text":"臺板西邊方案與國內啟動碳費徵收時同步規劃臺板西邊申報制度那後面一樣那委員有沒有意見主席我其他的文字我沒什麼意見就是那個同步推動你們說要改成規劃我覺得這有差嗎我沒有說你同步實施啊"},{"start":12540.034,"end":12542.556,"text":"就照剛剛委員的文字修正通過第二案就照剛剛的文字修正通過"},{"start":12566.291,"end":12582.036,"text":"那臨時提案全部處理完畢．接下來請王洪威委員發言謝謝主席我請我們的彭部長請彭部長經濟部是誰啊楊署長產發署"},{"start":12595.129,"end":12595.369,"text":"委員好"},{"start":12624.889,"end":12625.089,"text":"國際社會福利局局長"},{"start":12645.914,"end":12657.205,"text":"我們再來看這個第二頁其實我們一直在說就是錯誤的能源政策他會的影響層面很大不僅僅只是台電的虧損不僅僅只是漲電價而已而且呢他對於我們要去達成我們的一個就是減碳"},{"start":12667.355,"end":12668.155,"text":"電力業、能源業電力以及燃氣業 對不對"},{"start":12696.533,"end":12720.447,"text":"他的占比將近6成之多所以我們現在的問題是說如果我們繼續去擁抱非核家園繼續的去依賴不管是這個天然氣也好或者是用燒煤也好這些火力發電會使得我們現在台電根本無法減碳"},{"start":12721.988,"end":12740.114,"text":"臺電無法減碳你如何去達到你的排碳的目標呢?好那我現在最主要的問題是在於來我為什麼請我們經濟部的長官來因為事實上如果根據你們現在科徵的費率臺電和中油都是排碳大戶"},{"start":12741.601,"end":12768.741,"text":"都是排碳大戶你說台電可以一直跟我們立法院要求怎麼追加預算補貼可是事實上有很多的民營電廠不是嗎對不對還是有很多的民營電廠所以我在這邊要請教我們經濟部的長官請問一下當我們這個碳費實施之後能不能保證我們的油電價格的成本"},{"start":12769.83,"end":12795.132,"text":"可以完全控制呢?我們油電價格會不會因此而提高?我剛剛講我最關心的是我們消費者現油電這個漲價大家就已經受不了了好未來在碳費實施會不會轉嫁到我們的電價轉嫁到我們的油價所以可不可以保證油電價格不因為我們碳費的徵收而因此提高可不可以"},{"start":12797.152,"end":12807.101,"text":"跟委員報告,那油電價格在我們經濟部裡面會有人員署跟台電、中油這邊會很詳實的評估啦,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那"},{"start":12823.294,"end":12825.795,"text":"非核家園就是我們沒辦法達成排碳減量目標的最大破口啦!"},{"start":12850.9,"end":12876.741,"text":"錯誤能源政策真的影響一大堆啊這個其實是現在大家比較少去注視到的那未來你油電價格要不要漲嗎那個我們環境部部長來你在整個的這個評估裡面對產業的影響裡面剛才你也承認電力是最大的這個排放量那未來油電價格要不要漲啊他要被徵收碳費啊"},{"start":12878.223,"end":12901.962,"text":"報告委員,你說的數字是有問題的,如果按照目前台電的電力規劃,它是可以自主減量的,它只要繳5億桌左右而已所以其實第一個是它跟過去能源價格上漲,基本上造成的波動是完全不一樣那我們其實委員你剛剛提供的CPI數字,其實我們算出來也只有0.08而已,所以並沒有像委員說的那麼的高"},{"start":12902.222,"end":12912.269,"text":"這是經濟來自於經濟部的計算那我最後一句話我時間到了所以那麼環境部長可以幫我保證就是碳費實施之後然後我們的油電價格不漲嗎"},{"start":12914.183,"end":12935.557,"text":"這個不是我的工作啊,報告委員。好啊,大家都不是你的工作,你推到經濟部,經濟部推到什麼什麼能源署,所以我們消費者繼續要當,怎麼樣?談吶?報告委員,這個其實第一個,這個只有5億多,還有其實它是自己這個發電的使用,自己線路的潰損的使用,所以基本上不會影響到每個人,而且我們也對外說,其實我們目前的CPI的衝擊只有0.08%,"},{"start":12938.069,"end":12942.371,"text":"我只要你保證油電價格不會因此漲價一句話60億的碳費的規模怎麼可能造成各種的漲價"},{"start":12955.936,"end":12983.083,"text":"我今天問你油電價格你不要跟我顧左右而言他嘛沒有辦法保證就代表問題存在啊對不對什麼叫政治語言啊你還是政治語言啊你不能保證就是不能保證油電價格不能漲價最後不是虧損虧損還是我納稅人來那個來貼補你永遠都是納稅人在付款啦錯誤的能源政策造成我們納稅人一隻牛線包被剝幾層皮啦好 謝謝"},{"start":12986.138,"end":12990.883,"text":"好,謝謝王宏威委員的發言。接下來請牛許廷委員發言。謝謝主席。彭部長、產發署長有請。請彭部長、楊署長。各位好。部長午安。"},{"start":13007.748,"end":13028.367,"text":"這本期今天質詢的主題叫做碳費不能變成贖罪券我們應該要讓這個政策能夠具體的導引所謂的減碳措施部長為什麼我們今天要搞出這麼多的這個制度的設計其實核心的目標是什麼探聽下要符合跟國際接軌國際接軌對不對也就是說大家基於國際上共同的目標我們有一個減量的專約義務"},{"start":13029.668,"end":13054.188,"text":"對,我們所有的政策應該是要符合這樣子的一個目標,對不對所以你包含碳費,有些人講碳稅,有些人講碳交易其實都是完成這個減量專業義務的政策手段部長應該不反對這樣的說法,對不對?沒錯好,那我們就進到所謂的制度設計的地方現在看起來我們是減量跟繳費的專業義務是可以脫鉤的嘛也就是說考量產業實際上發展的一個狀況你如果真的減量在實務上有些困難的時候,你可以用"},{"start":13055.209,"end":13081.542,"text":"講碳費的方式來做來等於說我也實踐了這樣子的一個責任嘛所以你等於除了碳費的這個收取之外你也提供了企業用自主減量然後加上優惠費率的這樣一個方式來做對不對這是我們現在的制度設計好我現在就要問這制度設計可能導致的一些問題因為本期請教一些學者專家也對業界做了一些了解那很多人其實是講啊很擔心啊就是說你這個優惠費率啊"},{"start":13082.282,"end":13106.728,"text":"真的會讓大家去做所謂的自主減量嗎?就是說你現在比如說281家先做對不對?我們就以這281家為範圍就好請問以目前的優惠機制因為你現在有行業別的指定削減跟技術標竿指定削減對不對?請問有多少家?你們政府的估計啊有多少家會去做行業別的指定削減?42%的有多少家會去做國家認定的技術標竿的23%的指定削減?"},{"start":13108.829,"end":13136.736,"text":"哪些人會,因為他為了要繳比較低的碳費所以他願意去做自主減量措施,你們有沒有估這樣的數字?好,包委員喔,因為141家裡面是上...281家裡面141家是上述的公司對,多數的企業有提供一頁資訊報告所以我自己也很認真的去一個一個去看他的這個減碳的計畫其實我們必須說,那前面20%家的公司,他佔的排在那80%他其實都是符合自主減量計畫的所以大多數,大..."},{"start":13137.376,"end":13165.499,"text":"抓大放小都沒有問題的但是我必須說還是有一些落後的比較弱勢的企業這個部分呢我們有跟經濟部討論希望他們可以多幫忙以這20%很好部長足按去看喔這一點本席是肯定啦那但是我們希望在這一次的答詢聽到比如一個軍令狀啊比如說我這個制度上路之後我就確定這20%前面相對的大戶裡面你講前面20%281家大概前面有三四十家對不對願意去做自主減量他們真的願意嗎你有多大的把握"},{"start":13165.839,"end":13184.55,"text":"他們最後真的是為了繳比較低的碳費,他們真的去做了自主減量你有多大的把握可以講,他們都會做這個事報告委員,這個我是一個族裔一個族裔的前20大的排碳源公司主動去跟他們說明,主動去拜訪希望他們那這20大公司,你都主動說明過了嗎都說過了他們直接回應說,那我們這樣做,有幾家"},{"start":13185.51,"end":13204.285,"text":"幾乎都同意都同意好那你有沒有去算過再精算過我們講你說最大戶的你都處理好對不對那你剛剛講說後面對不對你有沒有去精算過你現在他們收要繳碳費對不對因為現在很多問題是講我寧願繳碳費啊我也不願意搞自主減量啊因為我要搞自主減量我的設備各方各面的成本加起來可能比繳碳費還高"},{"start":13205.206,"end":13223.838,"text":"這就是我講的我擔心碳費最後變贖罪券我做不到減量我乾脆就繳錢了事然後最後我們還是沒有辦法達成國際減量的義務所以剛剛部長講前20大沒有問題後面的這些你有沒有做精算他們哪些符合然後差異在哪裡有沒有做一個相關的分析報告報告委員其實多數都是可以達得到的齁"},{"start":13224.498,"end":13224.779,"text":"這樣就好了啊?"},{"start":13245.819,"end":13261.733,"text":"部長因為這個題目很大我長期來做追蹤喔你就先從前20大開始喔因為你講你都主案拜訪過對不對是不是請環境部整理一份資料就是碳費跟他減量付出的成本比對有沒有減要的報告啦你的表格數字化的說法要去證明這20大是可以做這個事的可以嗎"},{"start":13262.954,"end":13282.768,"text":"他們的ESG報告寫的都很清楚那你用協助會審一下也沒有關係啊我接受你用ESG報告一些數字來注意啊我們找經濟部一起來進行好不好好一起進行好不好那最後一個問題就是你如果沒有辦法順利導應減量的時候我希望環境部會有備案嘛你還是要有因應措施嘛萬一他們理論上他們願意做自主減量萬一他們不做呢你有沒有備案"},{"start":13283.969,"end":13311.07,"text":"這個我希望部長因為還沒開始嘛我也不要都惡意推頂對不對但希望部長提醒一下環境部先做備案這個預備的方案就是要確保他還是要做減量這件事好最後一點點時間我問一下經濟部產發署欸福島減量他其實需要不少資源對不對我要投入很多的資金我們剛剛都在談成本的問題還有其他工具也可以應用比如說產創條例現在是吧是啊你經濟部有沒有足夠多而且足夠大額的政策資源去鼓勵他做減量夠不夠啊"},{"start":13311.59,"end":13339.789,"text":"跟委員報告,其實減碳的這件事是在112年我們就開始做了,我們那時候就協助企業從低碳化,包括...剛剛部長已經講了,就是經濟部也要一起來協助,因為我要的就是說,它實際上可能在碳費的支出跟它因應成本的一個對比,所以經濟部,你有提供哪些政策這個協助,哪些資源挹注,也要一併寫進報告裡面嘛,這樣我們才能夠讓這個東西它順利上路的時候,可以確實的導引減量,好不好?這一點還是要請環境部跟經濟部一起來合作啦,好不好?"},{"start":13341.51,"end":13341.59,"text":"請彭部長"},{"start":13365.97,"end":13375.588,"text":"侯委員好部長我們碳費的整個包括費率、機制當然現在對外有一定程度的公告了"},{"start":13376.636,"end":13405.009,"text":"那我剛才其實前面也聽到部長很多的答詢下一張那我大概整理一下其實我們在碳定價其實碳定價當然不只是碳費那整體的碳定價其實在台灣我認為有最重要的三個考量點這三個第一個是要達成氣候目標第二個對接國際第三個是維持境內外產業的公平性部長你同不同意?非常同意委員你完全說出我心裡面因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易"},{"start":13405.871,"end":13433.473,"text":"這三個是我們在規劃碳定價最重要的關鍵是在這三件事情上面那當然這幾天我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂臺板CBAN的問題簡單來說臺板CBAN在處理的問題就是剛才說的第三項維持境內外產業的公平性其實這個議題在今年的上半年的時候在應該是3月的時候我其實就有跟上一任的薛部長來去做討論那我知道之前環境部也把是把"},{"start":13434.893,"end":13449.98,"text":"臺版的不管是碳關稅或臺版的碳邊境調整機制是放在我整體的比較後面才會去來考慮的那我們現在看到產業上不管是水泥也鋼鐵也有很多的討論部長我剛才聽到你在前面的回答但你回答是說"},{"start":13451.922,"end":13471.974,"text":"會等2026年歐盟的CBAN正式實施以後那我們來看我們怎麼去處理這個問題可是部長我只想提醒一件事情其實我們現在臺灣產業最主要在臺版CBAN上面的需求他主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係您也很清楚主要是因應可能是我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係"},{"start":13475.516,"end":13502.592,"text":"所以它不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟的CBAN的關係所以我們並不是說等到歐盟開始收了CBAN以後我們才要開始我覺得這個邏輯上面不是一個等價的其實這只是一個間接的關係當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠"},{"start":13503.553,"end":13522.48,"text":"等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情"},{"start":13524.381,"end":13548.602,"text":"那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情"},{"start":13549.643,"end":13568.159,"text":"市長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說"},{"start":13568.679,"end":13568.799,"text":"下一則報告"},{"start":13590.714,"end":13617.969,"text":"再來一點是部長我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入"},{"start":13619.469,"end":13636.12,"text":"當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊"},{"start":13638.314,"end":13648.581,"text":"所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放進去成為"},{"start":13650.953,"end":13674.117,"text":"可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面"},{"start":13674.677,"end":13690.037,"text":"能夠再推進多少尤其是下一張我希望是不是可以在一個月內提出一個更積極更普及的EMIS就是剛才說能源管理資訊系統的推廣的政策目標跟計畫因為我現在在不管是經濟部的"},{"start":13692.045,"end":13718.954,"text":"深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎"},{"start":13721.734,"end":13743.588,"text":"我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告好,謝謝部長,謝謝好,謝謝洪森漢委員的發言,接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":13751.636,"end":13755.339,"text":"今天我們討論這個碳費開徵碳費開徵你們跟經濟部你們跟經濟部兩個呢那請經濟部也上來你們兩個呢當說碳費開徵經濟部稱"},{"start":13778.896,"end":13798.691,"text":"這一個遺憾那現在你們協商的進度到底怎麼回 怎麼呢來 部長你先說吧委員我們跟經濟部我說說很好大家可能又不滿意阿說不好大家又見縫插針不見縫插針你就講實質的問題實質的面向因為經濟部遺憾怎麼會很好呢你們兩個是風馬牛不相對的阿在這個議題上面你們怎麼樣去把它融合在一起"},{"start":13809.079,"end":13829.014,"text":"這個其實我們是相互尊重他們的意見啦相互尊重,當他申表遺憾,你的看法呢?但是這個是碳費審議委員會共同的決議啦共同的決議,碳費審議會定的這個價錢請教,針對本席的提問當碳費開徵經濟部表遺憾,你環境部部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":13830.292,"end":13844.708,"text":"當然我們會希望說未來也多聽他們的意見,共同來聽產業的意見,其實我也跟聽了很多產業的意見。那經濟部,表姨和他繼續跟你溝通你現在的看法呢?"},{"start":13845.248,"end":13865.768,"text":"是,跟委員報告,因為產業面對大環境的競爭,不是每一個行業都比較跟AI能夠有連結,所以有一些比較辛苦的,我們是希望國內的機制它是一體適用的,所以是不是可以穩健的從第一然後開始來做證收。你要不要再給環境部建議?"},{"start":13867.509,"end":13894.782,"text":"現在都在討論,經濟部會不會在跟環境部在溝通?我們會持續的做溝通。持續繼續溝通,還好有這個持續溝通。那我們實際在講,部長,2026年開始要繳交,收費的對象是直接跟使用電力間接溫室氣體排放,要達到多少以上的電力業、燃氣供應業以及製造業要課呢?"},{"start":13897.505,"end":13913.444,"text":"2.5萬噸那你現在一般費率是1公噸多少錢?300塊是以300塊那你提出也就是符合減量指定目標的自主減量計畫者可以適用優惠嗎?是嗎?對對對可以適用優惠有兩個階段AB兩岸"},{"start":13917.789,"end":13932.824,"text":"在這樣的情況之下目前經濟部仍就認為是有困難的那政府是議題的必須要好好的去檢討那在這樣的一個情況之下本是要告訴你也就是高碳洩漏事業的單位"},{"start":13934.165,"end":13958.756,"text":"在碳費公司當中,最初可以想排放係數的一個折扣,對不對?這是全球各個國家都朝這個方向那請問,你何時可以拍板?你的項目?你的項目何時可以拍板?什麼時候可以給社會大眾?給產業說明?何時可以拍板?國外都已經有囉!國外都已經有囉!"},{"start":13960.148,"end":13978.858,"text":"何時可以排版高碳洩漏的這個部分項目?何時可以排版?跟我們報告,因為我們現在在等那個主計處把產業關聯表11月要公告,那因為他會是我們計算高碳洩漏風險的一個很重要的資料。11月下個月"},{"start":13979.238,"end":13990.553,"text":"主席主委出來對出來那你們預計什麼時候會我們會跟經濟部就這個資料再去做溝通那預計什麼時候會公告因為你們一定有一個指標啊比如說"},{"start":13993.874,"end":14000.941,"text":"這個鋼鐵製煉業有沒有報告在裡面?有沒有?國際上現在高碳洩漏風險 經濟部有點頭鋼鐵跟水泥是各國都普遍認定是有高碳洩漏所以換句話說11月主計單會出來你們預計什麼時候可以宣布?"},{"start":14010.831,"end":14026.469,"text":"我們應該希望明年的上半年可以有把那個認定的準則做一個公告時間要加快你們經濟部跟環境部在這裡因為產業很緊張明年你現在說的是明年的上半年時間要加快"},{"start":14027.53,"end":14040.94,"text":"這是第一個第一個時間要加快不要拖在明年中了好不好讓業者趕快能夠應對好不好這第一個第二個碳費開徵你的碳費藍圖你什麼時候要公佈要明確化來請教你看了這個圖第5次的會議審議會議當中你2026年到2030年你在這邊有說那你什麼時候要公佈你的碳費藍圖"},{"start":14055.763,"end":14070.825,"text":"這個是每兩年有碳費審議委員會會討論一次你告訴我你什麼時候要公佈這個事實上每兩年就要檢討一次它的成效你告訴我你近期什麼時候要公佈你連公佈都沒有你還講兩年之後的事情"},{"start":14072.128,"end":14078.233,"text":"報告委員,其實這個委員都討論到最後一個階段2030年可能是1200到1800這個當中是不是一個協力的路徑協力的路徑到底你是不是承載你的2026年到2030年從300漲到1800噸這個是跟國際接軌的一個數字我請問"},{"start":14093.564,"end":14109.318,"text":"我們政府是不是如此你要明確地告訴民眾因為我們必須要以價自量這個概念從根源以價自量這個非常的重要如果你沒有給人家公佈我現在300我可以吸收"},{"start":14110.439,"end":14131.714,"text":"但是我如果到我就不減碳我如果到1800我吸收不了我做價給消費者這怎麼辦這不是政府應該要做的所以我具體說明具體說明第一個也就是說你什麼時候可以讓碳費的藍圖明確化請你告訴我這一點非常的重要請告訴我"},{"start":14132.134,"end":14147.66,"text":"關委員這個其實這種制度不見得是一個國際上最好的制度所以我們承諾在4年內會推動總量管制的排放交易所以我給你功課因為時間的關係我給你功課請你要儘快你現在沒有要公佈碳費藍圖你沒有我請你要公佈我請你要公佈"},{"start":14153.422,"end":14174.059,"text":"上路不公布人家怎麼預定怎麼應對呢所以這個就是民間非常的憂心那拜託拜託碳費藍圖你一定要去公布我這個功課給你好不好這個功課一定要給你不是先上路再講沒有那回事的那未來產業要怎麼應對很重要所以最後一個功課給你"},{"start":14175.8,"end":14201.979,"text":"給我,也就是我們臺中中火市世界最高的碳排這個電廠而且我們臺中也是製造業精密業發展最重要的重鎮也是都市企業排碳屬全國第三名我們的碳費是專款專用我要拜託部長在這邊你們在分配的時候一定要對臺中一個公平的分配我們是全世界曾經剛剛我說過的這樣的一個背景"},{"start":14202.739,"end":14210.131,"text":"我們付出那麼多一定要好好的讓我們有更多的補助額專案的來作為我們檢探可以嗎"},{"start":14213.102,"end":14230.579,"text":"這個我們碳費審議會會來考量這個事情你一定要考量喔我一定會追蹤好不好那以上剛剛所說的拜託尤其是我們的碳費藍圖一定要公佈全世界沒有一個國家說上了再講這個是不負責任的一個態度嘛好不好一定要去將碳費藍圖要公佈給社會大眾瞭解好不好謝謝"},{"start":14234.423,"end":14258.231,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊英委員那我請等一下質詢的委員時間稍微控制一下好 接下來請張祺凱委員發言請彭部長張委員好彭部長好"},{"start":14264.335,"end":14288.055,"text":"你是內閣裡面大家對你比較相當有期待的啦謝謝謝謝你任內應該有個目標排碳污染一定是要降低嘛對不對我問你一個數字齁2025年啊我們的火力發電占台灣所有的發電的量75.5%你知道2023年的年底是多少嗎80應該可以接近吧很接近啦齁很接近再高一點點81.8"},{"start":14293.479,"end":14319.666,"text":"2005年是75.5喔我們一直在說我們要建立碳排要盡量去推動結果推到去年底變81.8包委員這個不一樣喔排碳的跟排燃氣的這個排碳係數差了三分之一喔阿燃氣是一個過渡的一個階段阿現在過渡會太久了啦對不對不一定你的任內我不曉得你會當多久你任內到時候大概就算了你上來的時候污染有多少"},{"start":14320.606,"end":14345.988,"text":"你離開的時候,污染有沒有降下來?我剛才說的若是最近這幾年看起來在往下在往上漲嘛,對不對?這才是現在最大的問題來,我們來看一個最近通常的新聞最近有一個知名的藝人啊王建民過世了,肺腺癌嘛我們的民醫啊出來講,雖然他講很多很重要的事情他講啊以前是以核養綠,現在是什麼?用肺去養綠嗎?"},{"start":14348.749,"end":14377.384,"text":"現在癌症每一年多了一萬多個新的這個患者台灣現在有兩個世界第一來 我兩個世界第一因為空氣汙染造成的EGFR的突變型的肺腺癌世界第一另外一個第一是什麼EGFR的突變的比例也是世界第一這個跟空氣汙染都有非常非常大的關係我相信你從民間來大家對你有期待"},{"start":14378.715,"end":14406.056,"text":"大家都希望這個污染是要降低的我要提醒大家 站在人民的角度全台灣人每年罹患最多的癌症就是肺癌跟肺腺癌死亡最多的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌花最多錢的癌症也是所以你怎麼看民醫講的還有全國的民眾講的火電你那是民間你怎麼樣讓這個火力發電可以降低"},{"start":14407.844,"end":14409.144,"text":"發電是我們北京全台灣污染源最嚴重的嘛 對不對"},{"start":14436.87,"end":14453.868,"text":"市長發電你是從排炭量來看其實我們的這種所謂的發電的污染源在某一個地方不一樣像中部有的地方大概佔兩成一成左右那到多數是所謂交通污染源會比較多當然污染有很多種不過發電這邊的火力發電一定要盡力盡量去減少那這個我們有共識我再給你看進一步的因為今天在談這個"},{"start":14461.211,"end":14477.618,"text":"談這個議題跟你要專款專用顯然 碳費的專款專用可能也有關係我們看看 全台灣離癌致死的 肺癌跟肺腺癌朋友、外島、朋友是最多的 在台灣啊就是賣寮那個燃煤那個發電廠 守在地的賣寮還有台南市 叫齊凱的故鄉 加義關"},{"start":14484.148,"end":14497.418,"text":"剛剛在講你要降低這個污染的同時那如果因為污染你沒有做好那你現在又要收碳費嘛 對不對你碳費專款專用碳費裡面有沒有一部分的專款專用是會去補助人民的健康去預防他得到癌症"},{"start":14498.393,"end":14525.259,"text":"報告委員 這個碳費是為了要減碳的那減碳跟減空污 空污有一個空污費也在處理 已經有 早就有一個空污費那其實這個是比較跟空污費比較有關聯性那我們是減碳為主 那碳跟空污這是不一樣有關聯性的東西那如果因為政府的錯誤政策 所以你說了人民的這個碳費那我的健康受影響 所以這筆費用收進來不會到在幫這些病患上面 不會有"},{"start":14526.55,"end":14548.767,"text":"這個是屬於空汙費,因為空汙會造成這個可能的各種的因素,但是我必須跟委員說,造成這個癌症的這個原因有很多種,空汙只是其中的一項。好,那除了健康之外,另外一個就是費用,我們看一下。健康醫護,你如果做不到健康醫護就是費用。那個部長你知道,這個可能問你比較不清楚,經濟部比較能夠回答。"},{"start":14549.847,"end":14555.629,"text":"古泥、錦泥、河山廠、一號機跟二號機幫台電賺了多少錢?時間不夠啦,我簡單講啦,300億對不對?那你今年經濟部去把合一的一號機已經停了二號機馬上五月份又要停了對不對?那你停完以後整個成本又增高啦這是不是又另外一個問題啦?市長,你們有沒有想過這個問題?"},{"start":14579.895,"end":14579.915,"text":"市長"},{"start":14608.114,"end":14612.276,"text":"現在我一直在看你說這個對CPI的影響非常的小對不對那我現在是要提醒一下要注意那個蝴蝶效應"},{"start":14637.845,"end":14656.552,"text":"我用台鐵來做比擬給你聽啦對台鐵因為電價漲了之後電價漲了之後所以它幅度漲價不多喔明年才增加2.228億你們在講說什麼什麼那些電價那些不影響可是它就影響到台鐵馬上就要漲人民的票價了這整個物價就有衝擊了"},{"start":14657.412,"end":14675.293,"text":"報告委員這個其實我一直針對某些的建商特別是大佬他一直喊說會漲5到10%我們一直強力的去跟那個房仲業者去談這個事情所以我也找了很多的業者談他們也告訴我沒有那麼多所以也在這個機會請所有的媒體對外說不要再用這種擴大的效益造成蝴蝶效應"},{"start":14675.854,"end":14676.274,"text":"接下來請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":14706.687,"end":14734.3,"text":"好,謝謝召委,那一樣邀請部長請彭部長六委員好部長好,不然請教一下,我不知道剛剛有沒有委員問過就是我們碳費每公噸300塊這個300塊它的制定是怎麼樣制定出來的我們有一個碳費審議委員會然後涵蓋了這個政府部門還有專家學者還有NGO一起制定出來的理論理論"},{"start":14735.461,"end":14758.12,"text":"理論喔,其實他們有算出各種的這種情境,然後對減碳的效果,然後甚至還有包含對CPI、GDP的衝擊,最後一個折衷的數字你有點抽象喔,呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵"},{"start":14758.64,"end":14773.312,"text":"產生用電可能產生的碳我們要去把這個碳消米所需要付的成本還是說我們是站在抑制這個用電的方向來制定這個會有不同的面向去討論這個"},{"start":14775.353,"end":14776.854,"text":"我們請我們的沈議委委員會的主席在這邊好不好 來 我們次長"},{"start":14800.115,"end":14819.734,"text":"委員好其實我們在碳費審議會的時候我們有參考很多的包括其他國家的碳定價然後也包括我們詳細的以產業別去看這個不同的費率對於產業的毛利率的影響當作其中一個指標所以我們在第5次的碳費審議會是有建議說一般費率是大概300到500塊的區間"},{"start":14821.676,"end":14822.296,"text":"所以依照主席講的我們這個300塊的碳費的訂定"},{"start":14849.651,"end":14870.936,"text":"好像是用從對產業的影響的層面來當作一個主要定定的一個標準這是其中之一的影響那有沒有去考量到我們這個因為專款專用嘛對不對那我們譬如說生產一度電所生產的碳那可能需要多少的成本無論有沒有辦法完全消彌"},{"start":14872.898,"end":14887.995,"text":"我們沒有從這方面來考慮嗎因為我們總是專款專用嘛我總不能去訂了一個價格然後沒有跟你說我這筆錢要怎麼用然後他要繳的心我的意思就是說你要讓繳的人繳得心甘情願而不是說我繳了這筆錢"},{"start":14889.608,"end":14903.194,"text":"其實有點我繳這筆錢好像是你政府為了要減碳然後強制我來繳的一筆錢然後為了要減少我的支出我來減碳但是對於繳費的人來說他希望他繳的這筆費用他是有一個計算公式的嘛"},{"start":14904.264,"end":14928.879,"text":"跟我們報告就是因為我們其他我們在參考其他國家的制度的時候每一個企業因為他的製程然後他的這個減碳的潛力不同所以要去幫每一家去算減碳成本其實可能要每一個企業他自己比較清楚那所以我們在做估算的時候我們變成是要用一些學術上能夠收集到的一般性的資訊來看"},{"start":14931.06,"end":14959.909,"text":"減量成本確實不太容易成為一個比較具體的評估的水準所以我們變成是從這個毛利率是其中一個那參考其他國家已經在實施的經驗我們也從這個角度所以就感覺起來好像我們國家就是去增加了一個可能用電的一個成本來逼你減碳沒有沒有不是用電的成本是減碳減碳聽起來就是增加你的成本來逼你減碳這樣而已嗎沒有沒有好像沒有更好的意義在裡面報告委員這是碳定價碳定價全世界都這樣走"},{"start":14960.729,"end":14985.244,"text":"那我也必須說因為我是520接手過去討論的一兩年就是所謂的碳費的這個制度所以其實我們觀察到全世界大概走到碳稅、廢稅或總量管制的碳交易都有在做所以其實從市場面我其實就是希望說300塊這個數字不是憑空蹦出來的剛剛講的一個可能對產業的衝擊這我可以理解這是必要的因素之一但是它不應該是"},{"start":14986.69,"end":15013.972,"text":"我去考慮一個費率然後去算對你的充其多少挑一個對你減少比較少的一個費率你能夠接受的一個費率來訂定他我覺得他應該要賦予更多的一個精神在裡面而且我有更多的實際的一些計算在裡面好不好希望委員有這個就剛剛講的一句話心甘情願你要人家講碳費要人家講的心甘情願不過委員會報委員其實說很多的產業分割我說萬一這個費到處去分配給很多的地方他們就不大心甘情願"},{"start":15014.913,"end":15015.333,"text":"接下來請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":15044.386,"end":15070.371,"text":"主席有請部長請彭部長委員好部長原定2025年1月就要起徵的碳費現在環境部公告是每噸公噸300元的價格跟延後到2026年開徵這已經是最終版本了嗎?是不過我原是2025年起徵2026年交對"},{"start":15072.751,"end":15089.737,"text":"就是2026年交嗎?但是我們今年的費率明年5月要市申報。好,非常好。反正你們的碳費其實當然不是你的任內啦。之前也是很多部分一言再言。希望這次能夠如期開始去進行,可以嗎?只要委員不反對就是如期的。"},{"start":15091.698,"end":15096.643,"text":"今年4月的時候,我有向經濟部詢問,未來碳費開徵之後,台電是不是受到影響?當時經濟部回答我,一據7.0變遷因應法28條,"},{"start":15112.682,"end":15128.849,"text":"徵收碳費的對象包括溫室氣體之直接間接排放源其中生產電力之直接排放源得檢據提供電力消費之排放量證明文件向中央主管機關申請公告扣除直接排放源之排放量所以"},{"start":15129.669,"end":15156.69,"text":"電力業被徵收碳費的範疇要環境部公告收費辦法後才能夠確定那我想請教一下現在你們已經公告了嘛 對不對那有協助台電精算大概多少錢嗎大概5億左右5億左右是不是我看到一個資料寫15億為什麼有這個落差基本上他可能是沒有自主減量的計畫題的話可能是這樣所以他按照自主減量他可以就更低嘛 對不對好 那麼"},{"start":15159.271,"end":15176.637,"text":"臺電發電主要供用戶使用按照臺電的說明實際電力事業排放量為盤查登錄排放量扣除外售電力排放量這也代表使用者付費干液所以最終是由電力使用者來負擔碳費成本"},{"start":15178.078,"end":15180.14,"text":"一般民生用電因為我們是規律有幾個例如說發電業、製造業等等所以一般的家戶是沒有受到影響的"},{"start":15193.433,"end":15214.535,"text":"那不是跟你前面講的這個使用者付費的概念是就是有例外啦因為我們徵收的對象是這種發電業還有製造業為主發電製造業為主一般的費率之外還定有優惠費率就是A50跟B100兩種方案嘛對不對那目前原本可適用的範圍有多大"},{"start":15217.385,"end":15239.131,"text":"目前我們有提到說鼓勵業者盡量減免所以使用電力生產間接排放目標年排放如果削減達到6%或直接排放製程達到一定標準就可以使用A方案那我想要請教一下因為外界就認為說事實上這個其實並沒有定很明確的範圍"},{"start":15242.072,"end":15266.929,"text":"這個範圍算很明確嘛,因為這樣做法的話,基本上有人也認為這是打假球,其實就會讓實際上很多費率定定,那變成是看起來是適用300元但其實你只要提出一些減量計劃,就計劃而已喔,那就可能是在100元、50元那高碳洩漏產業甚至可能只有10元跟20元,有沒有這個可能性?"},{"start":15267.609,"end":15291.368,"text":"基本上報告委員這個是穩健上路最重要的先低後高所以當然這個我知道環保團體對這個數字的確不滿意希望拉到國外一樣的水準但是其實國外也有這樣的所謂的高碳洩漏或是整個優惠的方式先行都是先低開始所以我們先走一步我不反對從低開始可是我就要講下一個問題因為在到達我們2030年省立會建議是多少錢"},{"start":15296.852,"end":15310.257,"text":"一千二到一千五一千二到一千五嘛我這邊為什麼又寫這資料是一千八哦一千八一千八不好意思我想說是我錯還是你錯好那請問你現在已經是2024年對不對你2026年開增然後一開始又我們剛剛講的就是我們環團所擔心的你那個起點那麼低的狀況那從2026年算到2023年剩幾年啦2030年六年"},{"start":15324.137,"end":15346.712,"text":"我想2026年,四年而已啦。四年而已你可以在這麼短的時間內從300到1800元嗎?那個是建議啦,但是我也必須說國際的探定價有一定的規模。所以人家說你打假球也不能說是說假的。你現在跟我講那只是建議,意思是說你其實也沒打算做啦。"},{"start":15348.613,"end":15367.904,"text":"三零年前做到一千二到一千八是這個意思嗎我們是希望是說讓這個碳定價制度先行然後走到總量管制的碳交易那你的審議會就不用建議一個什麼二零三零年一千二到一千八不是嗎那是審議委員會的建議嗎對啊那我要講就是說那你也是跟審議委員會的建議是基本上"},{"start":15369.505,"end":15396.483,"text":"這樣講啦 部長你好像感覺上啦就比較沒有那麼有自信啦就是在說沒有 我很有自信所以很有自信在2030年可以到1200到1800因為其實在5、6年後其實全世界的探定價就會起來所以這個也是提醒每個企業真的要去做檢探這件事情好 因為時間到了齁後面的問題要用書面質詢來取代但是不管怎麼樣講齁當然我覺得兩邊平衡是為難的可是事實上"},{"start":15397.244,"end":15398.384,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家午安是不是有請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":15429.574,"end":15451.576,"text":"委員好部長好那今天大家在討論這個有關於碳費的一個問題那相信這個我還是要先跟部長報告我個人本席是認為就是因為政府錯誤的能源政策現在台灣主要是八成的火力發電兩成現在所謂這個政府所謂的綠能的發電我覺得現在才是這個碳費"},{"start":15452.435,"end":15476.265,"text":"還有現在全台灣是一個大型的這個碳排放量很高的國家的我認為是主要的問題之一所以今天要先來請教我們這個部長的一個問題在第5次這個費率審議委員會以後我們現在的結論我們可以看到這張圖表這圖表裡面有顯示2025年到2029年的一個整體的費率那大家都知道現在2025年這個依照審議委員會的結論"},{"start":15480.126,"end":15505.518,"text":"這個費率有分為每公噸300元那另外有個A跟B的優惠費率B是100元每噸100元跟這個優惠A的部分是500元每公噸的部分那我想要請教部長的是針對這個圖表而言是不是2025年到2027年目前來看這個費率一般費率是不會做調整的"},{"start":15506.358,"end":15524.988,"text":"因為我看這個圖表是水平的是不會調整到2027年才會對費率來做一個調整我相信這是企業所關心的是不是這個費率就會定在這邊不會變動請部長回答對報告委員這個其實是我們也參考了新加坡新加坡大概就是類似這樣的額度在制定的每幾年每兩三年就調漲一次"},{"start":15526.118,"end":15542.65,"text":"好,就是所以兩年內不會變動,這是肯定的?對對對好,那這個第一點我覺得是大家所關心的,兩年內不會變動那現在來講是有關有針對這個排放量這是兩萬五千公噸以上的企業才會做課徵那我請教部長這兩年內會不會這個其他的這個"},{"start":15546.132,"end":15558.036,"text":"排放量會不會有改變會不會有其他的企業會因應這樣的這個審議會的結論會去做調整就是會不會增加其他新的企業除了這現在281家公司當然會可能因為這個281家或是500個廠都是變動每年都是變動的"},{"start":15563.185,"end":15579.616,"text":"變動的方式就是依照它排放量如果有超過25000公噸那這一點就是我要請教部長的我突然跟我們同仁討論到一點那會不會有企業啊因為我跟部長報告未來這個從300每公噸300元會增加到2030年可能到1200元"},{"start":15580.917,"end":15602.997,"text":"那會不會有一些企業很聰明啊,我不知道你們是怎麼樣去審查這個碳排放量,那會不會有一些企業它會不會拆分公司,或是它把這個工廠的部分分成再做一家工廠,拆成兩家工廠,導致你們在審查的部分的時候看不出來它的到底的排放量是多少,會不會有這樣的情況,那導致你們沒有辦法收到完整的碳稅,碳費。"},{"start":15603.858,"end":15631.018,"text":"對,報告委員,這個其實也請以後的會計師不要用這樣的取巧的辦法啦細節我請我們正式主席來,他們當時有討論到這個問題好,請說委員好,其實因為我們在要求他們要做盤查的時候呢是以一個工廠作為邊界沒錯,那如果他們如果派成兩家工廠或者是直接未來做一個產業的變動感覺起來好像有沒有排碳可是事實上排碳量還是很高"},{"start":15632.218,"end":15649.85,"text":"市長跟委員報告因為現在所有的這些工廠他其實都也有這個固定污染源的這個許可所以如果他們要去更動這一些他的這個為了碳費去更動這些數字他其實就會涉及到他的許可證的變更固定污染源許可證的變更這不是一件容易的事"},{"start":15650.458,"end":15675.699,"text":"好,所以大家都解釋很清楚,所以我要跟部長講的,其實不是規劃的問題,就像我剛一開始提到的,台灣本身就是因為錯誤的能源政策,所以碳排放量我個人是居高不下,最近這10年,碳排放量我相信也是慢慢沒有任何的下降的一個狀況,所以我要這邊請教部長,你是不是可以來,我認為最大的問題就是全台灣的碳排放量,"},{"start":15676.429,"end":15679.931,"text":"臺灣的碳排放量在未來的10年或5年或10年或20年,臺灣的碳排放量整體要下降到多少?"},{"start":15696.943,"end":15721.08,"text":"報告委員其實在這個新訂定的例如說我們內部在檢討這個國家的這個第三階段的管制目標的時候我們目前推算到2035年那其實我也看到台電的數字有大幅度的這個減少但是這個其實還是要多元綠能各方面的能源的轉型所以部長我的意思是說你們只管企業啊企業一定要去課碳費啊那可是全台灣的整體的碳排放量不一定會減少"},{"start":15722.04,"end":15747.674,"text":"就是因為企業當你收取很高的碳費的時候企業他們會想一些方式來自保嘛可是全台灣的整體碳排放量根本沒有變少啊例如說國際來看我們台灣是在打假球啊這要是一個很重要的問題你要定立一個目標啊就是說你在要求企業在收這些費率的時候其實台灣本身我們台灣要設定自己的一個本身的一個目標不然說那麼多碳費全台灣的碳排放量"},{"start":15748.935,"end":15775.015,"text":"還是居高不下,我覺得這是一個很大的問題,部長你認同嗎?認同,我們現在也正在做這個事情,重新再盤點部長是不是說未來希望你訂定目標以後再跟所有的委員,我們所有委員來做分享好不好?可以可以可以,謝謝那第二個我來,結束了,時間太長,好,謝謝大家不好意思,好,謝謝張志倫委員的發言接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":15785.029,"end":15788.71,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝主席,是不是還是請我們彭部長請彭部長李委員好部長,我們現在供第6次的碳費費率審議會,確定了碳費徵收的費率但是這個決議,距離有效推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠今天質詢的委員都覺得說,這樣企業怎麼活啊,現在大家都沒競爭力啊但是我要持不同的意見,就是說"},{"start":15814.719,"end":15831.784,"text":"你這個推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠以外,它可能還使台灣在國際碳邊境,就是C-band之下,處於不利的位置,而且會拖累了我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍,我必須要再講說,以這個歐盟鋼鐵製品為例,台灣"},{"start":15839.826,"end":15851.395,"text":"這3年平均的輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模?我記得數字大概5、6億左右什麼5、6億?大概是39.72億美金美金!我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面我們輸出到歐盟佔了幾個%?"},{"start":15869.363,"end":15886.227,"text":"18.79將近兩成我們鋼鐵外銷的將近兩成都是賣給歐盟啊所以這個CBAN的這個機制對台灣影響很大那我今天講說我們碳費你現在公告的費率也遠低於國際標準所以我們今天很害怕就是說"},{"start":15888.067,"end":15902.458,"text":"明年還沒有要起徵喔那在這種狀況裡面你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳那你們現在一般費率一公噸是300元優惠的方案B是一公噸100元優惠的方案A方案是一公噸50元那這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的"},{"start":15914.648,"end":15936.174,"text":"那歐盟碳交易市場因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵以鋼鐵業為例啦就不要講電子產品啦以鋼鐵業為例歐盟的碳交易市場一公噸是多少錢70塊歐元左右70塊歐元喔台幣新台幣2500元以美國環保署去估算每噸的碳排放它的外部成本"},{"start":15937.234,"end":15941.015,"text":"外部成本丟給社會去承擔的一公噸是190美元就相當於新台幣6100元才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度倫敦政經學院的研究團隊講說台灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3000元當然倫敦政經學院講是他的事但是我們要根據台灣氣候行動"},{"start":15966.162,"end":15992.002,"text":"網絡的研究人家民間有做了一個研究他說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B啦一公噸一百塊啦然後大家都在講說高碳洩漏的風險企業還要享有排放量調整係數值的折扣所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業有可能他的費率會是繳多少錢一公噸"},{"start":15993.012,"end":15995.975,"text":"所以剩下20元啦那我現在在跟你講我用的高碳洩漏這幾個字喔是以前的概念啦現在的概念一個台塑合淨廠拖幾年你跟我說從他們預計計劃興建到可以運作拖幾年高碳洩漏這假議題啦"},{"start":16018.24,"end":16032.95,"text":"用高碳洩漏的概念然後來給企業打折,我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去,人家就不要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠,台灣不好意思也要刷去外國,很簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊,不是10年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險,然後再給你打兩折"},{"start":16045.509,"end":16048.572,"text":"所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的那高碳洩漏,無量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊"},{"start":16066.852,"end":16082.743,"text":"那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元"},{"start":16085.7,"end":16104.064,"text":"你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏再打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢"},{"start":16115.738,"end":16119.262,"text":"人家民間也幫你賺了13.7億,台積電繳多少?10億,10.4億,中油繳多少?不到1億,中鋼繳多少?"},{"start":16133.427,"end":16148.093,"text":"不到2億啦所以人家都幫你們算了所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率啊成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是"},{"start":16156.037,"end":16163.963,"text":"欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才講過了,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,"},{"start":16179.417,"end":16186.544,"text":"都已經要執行了 如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元 優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長 這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣 歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話 那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課"},{"start":16204.339,"end":16216.472,"text":"再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦"},{"start":16218.703,"end":16245.779,"text":"我現在說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年那各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價"},{"start":16247.08,"end":16260.934,"text":"丹麥、加拿大、這個河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。"},{"start":16267.318,"end":16290.831,"text":"那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去"},{"start":16293.826,"end":16300.151,"text":"你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換優惠系數對對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度"},{"start":16313.384,"end":16337.596,"text":"會達不到那個標準嗎?委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的食指減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證"},{"start":16340.817,"end":16350.327,"text":"施工,錢就沒留在台灣啊所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平現在企增價過低,未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力這不是我們立委大家親切公共,大多數都不用叫啦"},{"start":16358.974,"end":16366.738,"text":"但是事實上呢 這個像油電價格補貼 享有排一噸碳高達1000元以上的補貼 在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生 外部成本每噸是5700元 結果他們光是一個碳費 一噸20元說得過去嗎"},{"start":16383.186,"end":16405.203,"text":"所以碳費的課徵,其實矯正這種不公平的第一步,留著讓我們來減量,或者是讓我們來調適用。當然部長,這樣一般費率300元,大多數事實上都課不到300元,遠低於國際水準,你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告?"},{"start":16406.857,"end":16426.486,"text":"報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久餒對啊還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度啦沒有很高啊因為你扣20元到10元啊大多數"},{"start":16428.547,"end":16433.629,"text":"而且不要忘了你們盤點的繳費是一場一場比如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了它是一個場一個場去計算的整個台塑是嗎你們25000的Quota扣減額度25000一場一場你搞不清楚不是我搞不清楚每一場都擁有25000公噸的免費額"},{"start":16452.376,"end":16454.317,"text":"所以整個台塑如果有20個廠他20個廠減掉2萬5跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5變成25萬噸的減碳欸那個免費額欸所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了並不是沒有然後再高碳排再優惠再打兩折打一折打兩折竟然沒有100元啦"},{"start":16479.933,"end":16508.226,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢"},{"start":16509.315,"end":16510.362,"text":"我們在這裡先講好喔"},{"start":16512.383,"end":16519.086,"text":"所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為首為尾討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦"},{"start":16540.814,"end":16545.256,"text":"要不然一般中小企業都很少的所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是20個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不說三百塊啦一檔票二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦"},{"start":16571.407,"end":16572.728,"text":"謝謝林淑根委員發言,接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":16599.966,"end":16624.842,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請部長請彭部長彭委員好部長好部長我想每個委員都一中心常講但我們不希望變狗肺火車但更希望是政府要拿出實際的作為真的來推動節能減碳的部分那我先請教一下在上禮拜千呼萬喚使出來這個碳費費率的時候我先看到一個新聞"},{"start":16625.963,"end":16646.124,"text":"臺中經發局這邊有講是說中火因為它是排碳大戶所以說以換算它的排碳量來講的話它應該預計要繳15億的一個碳費但後來大家又講是說這個規則其實臺電所謂的我們的排碳大戶不管是藍煤電廠、燃氣電廠這個排碳大戶它本身制"},{"start":16648.466,"end":16649.767,"text":"臺中火力發電廠最大的藍莓發電廠本席選區林口火力發電廠三部機組也是藍莓發電廠"},{"start":16672.538,"end":16699.353,"text":"上一次在同一個地點委員會的時候我也跟你請教過如果說環境部沒有一個強而有力的一個目標政策的話沒有辦法引導或沒有辦法導正錯誤的能源政策啊當國際趨勢都是減碳2035年不再使用藍煤藍煤來發電結果我們國家還是背道而馳我們還是一樣火力發電要嘛藍煤要嘛藍氣那我只想請教如果依照這樣子的公式出來的話"},{"start":16700.748,"end":16717.015,"text":"中火他預計他要繳多少的碳費?大概九千多萬九千多萬?對,他是整個是台電一起在繳對,九千多萬,不到一億九千多萬對比他一整整個台電不管人家講說虧損千億或者是說他每天發電要千億他根本"},{"start":16718.001,"end":16741.996,"text":"報告委員,他其實...飛水車薪啊!所以他根本沒有...你這樣的話你根本沒有打算...沒有辦法有具體的方向去讓台電也去思考是說他是不是應該要符合國際趨勢潮流沒有,報告委員我們還是持續要擁抱火力發電中火如果按照他原來的這個排碳量的話大概要繳到6億如果他很努力做減碳的話最低最低可以繳到1億多"},{"start":16743.217,"end":16761.95,"text":"所以其實他這個就是他願意來做的一個動力那整個台電來說的話他如果完全不做任何事情那他大概要繳到21億那如果很努力做的話大概是5億所以剛剛我們幾個委員都講啦但我的重點在於是我們的排碳大戶最大宗是不是能源的部分"},{"start":16762.563,"end":16762.823,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16781.695,"end":16799.054,"text":"開個巧門啊 開個後門啊他的發電量不用有任何的一個碳費的一個徵收就是他反正他攔多少沒發的電攔多少氣發的電他跟所謂的碳費完全沒有相關那這樣子我們有辦法來抑制我們所謂的排碳大戶嗎"},{"start":16801.449,"end":16826.819,"text":"他是使用他自己的排碳在台灣台電的排碳就不會影響到我們的空汙就不會影響到我們的這個溫室效益他有辦法因為你不算他的錢你不算他的碳費他就不會影響到整個環境不可能嘛所以說其實我們就變成是我們悶在這個土地上就以為沒有收這個碳費以為就看不到"},{"start":16828.476,"end":16854.055,"text":"沒有 報告委員 這個其實涵蓋了我們是涵蓋了54%喔不是只有台電而已喔部長 我可以再請教如果說有很多人講是說我們現在有A、B費率然後還有說如果說完全沒有的話就是一般費率啦那不管是300或是40、150那假設他有申請了但是實際上他沒有做這樣的一個部分"},{"start":16855.155,"end":16870.642,"text":"誰能夠來去做集合我們的集合環境部我們的集合組會有一個小組來做集合我們的人力有多少我們人力現在大概是90位但是我們現在會增加人力來推動做這個事情覺得有辦法去抓因為我相信"},{"start":16871.442,"end":16899.405,"text":"一般的這個企業如果說這樣看出來有300、有50、有100可以來申請那可能大家都會希望申請是最低的那我們之後我們的集合要怎麼做因為我們看到現在公平會有一個新聞是說如果票率最重罰2500萬對不對票率你最重罰2500萬但是公平會也好或是環境部也好環境部的罰單會有多少"},{"start":16900.308,"end":16928.697,"text":"他要補繳這個碳費他只是補繳所以如果沒抓到他就逃過他沒有任何的罰還他沒有任何的加重處分這個碳費是一塊一塊就跟你的稅是一樣的是但我的意思說如果說對沒有錯我的意思說如果說他今天他申請那沒有沒有辦法去激增到勒我們就要回溯之前的全部要繳回來那有沒有加重的一個機制"},{"start":16930.387,"end":16935.33,"text":"我們每年就是會去進行執行成果的查核那每一場都會查那按照現在的收費辦法的規定如果他有缺的這部分一定要補繳所以我們的人力"},{"start":16954.62,"end":16982.286,"text":"現在這樣就變成是說人力的部分是確實剛剛部長要講90位對那我們預計要多少位才夠我們就依照我們當然我們依照目前的人力當然這會結合就是現在的盤茶跟這個茶宴的這個地方政府環保環保局會不會一起進來最主要是我們的部分那我們會請地方政府來透過這個協助的這個茶廠的部分一起來進行嗯哼好所以人力的規劃"},{"start":16983.186,"end":16983.907,"text":"最後一分鐘我給大家看一個畫面"},{"start":16998.769,"end":17014.027,"text":"有嗎?有照片嗎?沒有照片?好沒有照片沒關係我只要說啊因為本席上禮拜有收到也有公家機關啊我就不講哪個機關了他說基層同仁真的很辛苦為什麼這樣講這個"},{"start":17016.479,"end":17044.945,"text":"大家傳出來說要節能減碳所以說呢有公家機關直接在辦公室裡面自製降溫工具冰桶裡水桶裡面裝冰塊電風扇裡面加冰塊然後再往前吹啊我說這他那個畫面就是一個水桶裡面放大冰塊然後電風扇吹啊我說不知道我以為是在廟口廟會你知道嗎好像戶外廟會那個降溫啊但沒想到他是我們其中真的是中華民國"},{"start":17046.865,"end":17060.57,"text":"現在此時此刻的公家機關在辦公室裡面那我們又對比看到說明年的部會電費又每一個部會總統府也暴增600多萬監察院暴增100多萬行政院暴增300多萬"},{"start":17062.878,"end":17083.222,"text":"我們真的想講是說環境部當然這可能跟還是一樣能源的一個部分但我真的講是說當我們看到上級單位冷氣該吹還是吹辦公室還是涼結果反而我們基層的第一線同仁基層的公務同仁需要用這個自製冰塊自製降溫工具我為他們感到不捨部長"},{"start":17087.202,"end":17087.222,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":17116.869,"end":17117.049,"text":"結名檢探"},{"start":17146.122,"end":17161.209,"text":"剛剛鴻夢凱委員說有人自製冰塊冰塊、冰水吹我其實覺得最應該檢討的就是立法院立法院的冷氣太強了大家坐在這邊不冷嗎?"},{"start":17165.349,"end":17183.695,"text":"這個就是我覺得我們討論一個這樣子的議題然後冷氣其實我也一直覺得官員來立法院是不是就是把尊重放在心裡不用放在衣著上"},{"start":17184.855,"end":17186.036,"text":"官員為了要"},{"start":17201.616,"end":17213.705,"text":"要表示尊重,所以穿著西裝打著領帶那民意機關為了待客所以必須要把冷氣降下來配合你們這個我一直覺得"},{"start":17218.228,"end":17234.515,"text":"我們就是要減少碳台然後要減少公家的開支應該從我們自己本身做起才對這個立法院其實也不只委員會就是包括辦公室也一樣冷氣都強到不行"},{"start":17236.533,"end":17247.753,"text":"好部長我們因為你們碳費的收費標準已經有了決議好那我們徵收碳費呢其實就是"},{"start":17250.937,"end":17270.424,"text":"預計與爭我們的目的是要減少溫室氣體的排放來源對嗎?這樣子的概念沒錯那所以我今天還是跟部長來討論一下就我們有分階段的管制目標可是一直是"},{"start":17273.288,"end":17285.556,"text":"好像沒有很完全的落實我們在第一階段我們是減量希望能夠減量百分之相對於2005的基準年現在基準年都是2005我們第一個階段我們希望減少2%可是我們並沒有達標"},{"start":17293.962,"end":17312.816,"text":"那第二階段第二階段就是什麼時候呢就是從2021到2025我們的目標是要減降10%那我這邊的資料是只有到2022大概相比較大概只有減了1.77"},{"start":17316.36,"end":17338.236,"text":"有2024的資料嗎?還沒有,那個通常會有一兩年的差距那還沒有的話,部長你接下來只剩下一年多怎麼跟各部會去做協調讓有效的來降低溫室氣的排放量,達到第二階段的目標"},{"start":17339.336,"end":17363.585,"text":"報告委員這個議題是總統跟院長整個行政團隊都非常關心的議題所以我們現在其實的確我們受到一個新的壓力正在規劃盤點各個部會那有的部會的確是比較慢的比較不積極我們也主動說可不可以更積極一點所以等於是說的確行政院內部各個部會正在討論要設定一個新的目標那我也必須說由下而上"},{"start":17364.105,"end":17364.425,"text":"三期的的的"},{"start":17383.01,"end":17402.256,"text":"溫室氣體階段管制目標其實必須要在實施前兩年提出也就是說今年必須要提出那不知道氣候署這邊有沒有辦法如期在年底提出各位報告我們現在正在努力當中年底可以提出嗎"},{"start":17403.87,"end":17417.015,"text":"一定要提出阿就是說如果照原先的規劃數字都不會太好看阿我們希望真的努力啦再努力啦所以原先的規劃你們是預估減量20到28就是24加減1啦203024加減1啦這個數字不漂亮阿"},{"start":17426.072,"end":17436.396,"text":"就是希望能夠有再漂亮一點我們想像上不漂亮不過要達成很困難所以我們應該要更"},{"start":17438.874,"end":17459.297,"text":"更實際一點啦就是說我了解部長的意思部長覺得24加減1這個目標不夠好看不過我現在從我們過去已經兩期了第二期已經也只剩下一點時間了就是我們的"},{"start":17460.663,"end":17478.931,"text":"我們實際的減碳量並沒有辦法達到我們預估的目標啦所以我覺得就是不一定要鎖定在當然可以讓數據很漂亮然後又可以達到這個是"},{"start":17480.091,"end":17504.734,"text":"是最高的追求方向,假如沒有的話,我覺得還是以實際的怎麼加速碳排的減量,這個才是重點好不好?方委員那個有一點真的很辛苦,例如說以立法院要減量來說的話,我們現在五天上班嘛,那就有一天不要吹冷氣,都不要開燈就這樣,這樣多痛苦啊!"},{"start":17505.294,"end":17533.468,"text":"這個對於大家各行各業要檢視真的很辛苦所以我們現在各個部位的確我們很努力在找一些新的方法一些創新的方式來做這個事情這個當然部長跟執行團隊的困境企業的困境其實大家都可以想像不過就是面對一個新的課題大家總是要找到一個一條可以解決的方法"},{"start":17534.833,"end":17555.035,"text":"還有一個就是臺電的估算AI的發展會增加未來用電的需求那這個勢必會影響到第3期的溫室氣體階段管制目標你們會氣候署這邊會把這個因素一起納入"},{"start":17556.295,"end":17556.695,"text":"主席我找一下經濟部"},{"start":17590.262,"end":17597.526,"text":"部長請坐部長我這邊問一個有關產業的問題我不知道我們經濟部這邊對於產業界的所有的國家平均"},{"start":17619.193,"end":17646.181,"text":"韓碳量的調查目前有沒有進度?還是我們已經啟動了沒有?因為歐盟的碳邊境調整紀錄就是CBAN課徵除了實際韓碳量以及設計韓碳量以外為了要因應中小企業的困境所以他還提供了第三種選擇就是國家平均韓碳量對不對?"},{"start":17647.542,"end":17656.949,"text":"跟委員報告我們臺灣的做法是國家排放清澈那這部分是由環境部這邊在整個在是環境部在做處理我"},{"start":17658.905,"end":17684.442,"text":"我想說這個跟中小企業...那之前是以那個排放2.5萬噸會花比較久的一點時間那這個清澈都會放在網路上面那經濟部這邊負責什麼?經濟部這邊主要是針對產業的一些輔導機制那在更早之前就是協助產業做先期減碳這一些相關的工作就是協助減碳那..."},{"start":17689.863,"end":17708.663,"text":"我的意思是說歐盟之所以會創設出國家平均的含碳量其實最主要是因應中小企業他可能規模比較小所以他要測自己產品的含碳量有比較困難創出來的嘛 對不對"},{"start":17709.344,"end":17731.418,"text":"那不管是環境部也好,經濟部也好,我覺得我們,因為台灣還是有很多中小企業嘛,還是必須要盡可能的站在你們的職權上,盡量加以輔導跟協助啦,好不好?好,謝謝署長,謝謝委員,謝謝主席。謝謝楊耀委員。"},{"start":17744.604,"end":17744.944,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":17756.674,"end":17782.472,"text":"黃委員好部長好部長我從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都非常的關心這個可能有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員幾乎到目前為止都沒有人跳過就是直接有登記一定來質詢那就表示說這個議題是大家非常關心的那我在基層其實我也聽到很多就是說一般你現在是針對500就是500個廠"},{"start":17785.154,"end":17787.095,"text":"明年開始申報明年1月1日開始開針後年才要繳錢"},{"start":17806.363,"end":17834.177,"text":"其實在地方有一些我講的是這個中小企業那他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去那其實他們對這個政府要徵收碳費其實他們也有很多意見那剛剛我有看到就是說環境部也有針對這個有到地方去開說明會那劉建國委員有特別提到就是說地方政府開說明會的時候或者是跟溝通"},{"start":17835.017,"end":17862.784,"text":"跟地方政府好像這個是缺法的所以我也希望就是說希望這個環境部能夠針對地方政府的這個部分應該要再去做一個加強可能就是去做跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通因為有時候民眾的疑問他第一時間他應該是打到地方政府去詢問所以如果說地方政府你們應該也要讓他有這樣的一個觀念跟概念"},{"start":17865.685,"end":17874.63,"text":"中小企業解決一些問題當然環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣環境部當然希望整個排碳的部分能夠減少經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收的"},{"start":17889.699,"end":17915.572,"text":"這個價格可能會覺得說不太合理或者覺得太高那當然這個兩個立場不一樣我們可以理解那我想請教就是說未來就是說我們現在都已經定下來了那環境部跟經濟部如果說你們的立場不一樣的話那你們怎麼去溝通說服對方那讓經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商你就是要誠實誠實來"},{"start":17919.376,"end":17927.632,"text":"來報這個這個碳費或誠實來申報應該是你們環境部跟經濟部應該要如果說整個立場是不一樣的話那你們怎麼溝通"},{"start":17928.943,"end":17949.554,"text":"報告委員其實如果說不一樣的話其實這個是我們彼此要互相的溝通妥協那我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持不然的話其實這個制度是真的走不下去的所以這段過程我也真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多所以其實我是覺得這個部分委員你點到一個重點"},{"start":17949.994,"end":17975.243,"text":"那未來呢我也會跟這真的因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是連協同作戰的所以這個部分我們會強化這個溝通那當然啦這個我也很尊重這個經濟部的意見因為他們有產業的壓力那我們也有環團的壓力那我們是政府是一體的所以其實我們未來會密切的再溝通這個因為楊署長其實我們也是長久的夥伴在各種方面我們會以後會多加溝通"},{"start":17976.144,"end":17991.204,"text":"對,就是說我們看到這個碳費拍板之後那經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣而且是媒體直接寫出來那這個完全不一樣的情況之下那你們未來要推動就是應該"},{"start":17992.446,"end":18009.536,"text":"就是經濟部你要去面對的是所有的廠家那環境部你面對的是所有的這個也許是環團那大家關心這個環境的這些這些人士那你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點那另外就是說明年開始申報那2026年開始開徵這個碳費"},{"start":18013.258,"end":18038.609,"text":"所以如果能夠順利的話如果能夠順利就照這個部長講的可能就是一年可以有60億的這個碳費那當然如果說這個廠商他是要銷到他的產品是要銷到這個歐盟的話其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府的這樣的一個政策那如果說不是的話也許會有推動也許會有一些困難"},{"start":18039.929,"end":18068.148,"text":"所以我覺得說應該對於你們跟地方的地方政府也好或者是你們其實我在之前薛部長的時候我就一直提到希望能夠跟地方要有充分的溝通因為很多人還不太清楚另外甚至還有人問我就是說他原本有一塊地然後上面原本就已經有種樹了那這個是不是可以抵啊所以我覺得說一般的民眾也不是那麼清楚"},{"start":18069.809,"end":18084.582,"text":"地方政府應該你們要讓他知道這個整個狀況那因為民眾很多他是直接打到地方政府去詢問是不是可以請部長在短期之內趕快進速跟地方政府可能有一些座談會或一些說明會"},{"start":18085.562,"end":18108.576,"text":"謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有所以我們把那個找出來我們有一個很好的座談"},{"start":18109.156,"end":18132.764,"text":"那因為歐盟的問題出口是很重要的例如說螺絲螺帽業、扣件業甚至很多特別的業其實他們的輔導幫忙所以我未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去有一組人來去做協調我這個協調不是為了說碳費多少而已而是說這個未來的螺絲螺帽業它在進出口的時候這個都需要一些氣候上的探權的談判"},{"start":18133.864,"end":18154.101,"text":"這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙所以我們環境部會積極的做那這個未來也會跟這個經濟部一起協同作戰那剛剛也有特別提到就是說你們針對這個收碳費或者是碳盤查可能你們環境部這邊人員這樣總共是多少人?現在90個人左右那90個人目前來講這樣是夠嗎?不夠那不夠你們未來要怎麼辦?"},{"start":18159.765,"end":18177.294,"text":"第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力然後有些需要一些委外的人力來去做辦理那當然啦其實現在的人才工部門的預算人才這個薪水是很困難的所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法因為現在的同仁都很辛苦都是靠著使命來做啦"},{"start":18182.138,"end":18195.308,"text":"前面有委員講說你們身為環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣"},{"start":18196.249,"end":18199.651,"text":"委員會主動希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長,也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教。"},{"start":18220.965,"end":18247.637,"text":"所以我是覺得說部長你應該要去爭取就是說我們明年開始這個碳費開始申報那2026年要徵收那我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個跟行政院這邊應該去爭取爭取經費下來那你要有足夠的人力啊要不然你有這麼多事情要做那你人力不足的話其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難對"},{"start":18249.558,"end":18269.139,"text":"那像這個的話,地方政府需要配合什麼嗎?他需要配合第一個是,未來這些知識地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與這個討論或是參與這個調查,這個都是要中央跟地方,特別是環保局的單位,所以我們像這個是第一步,我們也昨天第一個發布的是給各縣市環保局局長"},{"start":18269.679,"end":18270.119,"text":"希望有更明確的窗口來進行討論"},{"start":18290.522,"end":18315.268,"text":"部長你在明年的預算上面應該要增加的還是要增加我們在這個委員會從環保署變成環境部結果預算不增反減這是一件很荒謬的事情我相信你們只要編出來委員會會支持的"},{"start":18327.972,"end":18341.26,"text":"接下來請黃建豪委員發言主席好 那我先請這個彭部長"},{"start":18344.868,"end":18357.042,"text":"黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那手一開始想先一個部長就叫現在這定價每噸頭真的大企業是每噸300塊嗎這個不怎麼折衝出來的這個數字"},{"start":18361.768,"end":18386.686,"text":"這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來"},{"start":18389.688,"end":18410.619,"text":"對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以"},{"start":18411.099,"end":18426.983,"text":"有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有一些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊"},{"start":18430.034,"end":18459.286,"text":"因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型"},{"start":18460.146,"end":18483.736,"text":"當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢"},{"start":18486.897,"end":18515.617,"text":"其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還在擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告"},{"start":18517.017,"end":18535.003,"text":"企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願"},{"start":18536.403,"end":18560.044,"text":"就是我剛剛提到的,他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉,就像是這個贖罪券,就是我就把錢付掉就好,反正就像罰單一樣嘛,我就付掉,但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛,好這是笨,我覺得這個還是要精算一下啦,部長可以嗎?可以啊,這個企業其實他都有自己內部的減碳目標啦,大多數企業都知道要進行轉型,所以其實站到他的目標,搭配我們碳費做,會加速他的進行啦。"},{"start":18560.504,"end":18584.458,"text":"好,再來這個針對中小企業部分,我想因為中部也是真的是我們非常多傳產業者在擔心,雖然第一階段沒有他們的事,但是我想後續他們遲早要面對的。這個中小企業想佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%,那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話,我想問一下環境部對於到底這個費用跟他後續的,還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分。"},{"start":18584.718,"end":18584.838,"text":"現在不用擔心"},{"start":18601.818,"end":18626.31,"text":"現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫了沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分"},{"start":18626.65,"end":18633.975,"text":"目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。"},{"start":18647.904,"end":18666.622,"text":"部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要有使用者來負擔嘛"},{"start":18667.483,"end":18692.858,"text":"那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理"},{"start":18693.939,"end":18720.157,"text":"報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數是在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的"},{"start":18721.098,"end":18722.078,"text":"黃建豪委員發言何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在賴慧媛委員發言"},{"start":18744.084,"end":18769.855,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長,還有我們經濟部產業發展署署長,楊署長。好,賴委員好。是,部長、署長午安。我想,那個,因為我們是很後段的一個質詢,那也聽到了很多委員的一個建議。那在這裡我想請教部長,就是說昨天宣布的一個碳費,就是收費的一個標準,每一噸300塊。"},{"start":18771.716,"end":18797.395,"text":"那環團也不滿意業者也不滿意經濟部也不滿意為什麼會造成這麼多的單位的不滿意呢?部長因為這個事情是要收錢大家都不會滿意的啦就跟繳稅一樣啦最好不要繳啦大家最開心啦但是這個是必須要跟國際接軌所以環團跟這個業界的這個心聲其實我們都聽到了但是這個是一個大家不滿意但是又可以接受的數字啦"},{"start":18797.455,"end":18818.491,"text":"所以是不甘願可是又不情不厭那可是是可以接受的那我想在這裡跟部長再做一個探討就是說碳費的收費的定期的一個檢討我覺得這個裡頭你剛才有講到了就是說250萬噸針對的中小企業你是兩年定期的檢討一次是不是"},{"start":18819.352,"end":18843.01,"text":"那如果你這個氣候變遷因應法裡頭的28條第一項到第三項你又講到了就是說碳費的徵收費用是由中央主管機關所設定的這個審議委員會那就是審議了那送中央主管機關來核定公告定期檢討那到底你這個定期的檢討是多久檢討一次"},{"start":18844.023,"end":18868.321,"text":"我們其實每年都會檢討,但是政策要有一定的穩定性,大概是兩年會調一次兩年會調一次,那兩年調的一個局劇也是300塊嗎?不會不會,應該其實這個到最後都要接軌國際啦要接軌國際,那就是看國際怎麼走,那像歐美他在2026他就是他已經上場了,那上場的對在這個上場的過程裡頭,那個都當機囉"},{"start":18880.609,"end":18887.193,"text":"好主席那個暫停喔我們的電腦全部當機時間先暫停"},{"start":18911.445,"end":18934.979,"text":"好,再下一頁。好,主席,我們接著再下一頁。那,對,好,那,部長,如果用碳匯的輔導各個產業的一個減碳,那我們從裡頭,你,就是說你會加大的那個減碳的一個力道的一個輔導的資源,在這裡寫得很清楚,你跟經濟部跟環境部,你們裡頭講到了,經濟部他講的是輔導的一個措施,"},{"start":18938.641,"end":18963.787,"text":"那環境部講的是碳費收入的一個專款專用這個定格的非常的清楚可是如果我們這樣子來看它的話政府好像是有點過路財神啊這個把錢從這個經濟部搬到環境部這個要怎麼解釋呢事實上就是說很多委員在質疑就是你的收費標準已經是太低了那我們知道就是說"},{"start":18964.987,"end":18965.247,"text":"這還是很多人會覺得太貴了"},{"start":18981.254,"end":18981.394,"text":"國內高耗能產業"},{"start":19008.84,"end":19009.28,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19037.836,"end":19062.277,"text":"高耗能的產業它對國家的經濟是有重大的貢獻那就像陳儒署長講的就是說是不是讓產業留一些錢讓他去做他的產業的一個轉型這裡我特別要提到的就是跟部長跟署長提到的就是說畜牧業也需要減碳的一個輔導部長在所有的你這個產業裡頭你有沒有納入畜牧業"},{"start":19063.394,"end":19079.212,"text":"報告委員,其實畜牧業雖然有排放這些甲烷,但是其實把它收集在一起,它還是可以發電的。我們現在正在研議這樣的措施,但是也要請委員多幫忙,因為我們的畜牧業分散非常的廣,"},{"start":19079.873,"end":19086.757,"text":"所以就是說部長我在這裡特別請教你就是說對於畜牧業的一個減碳的一個輔導是不是有跟農業部進行就是多次的這個研擬譬如說我們讓牛就是說因為他牛如果在飼料裡頭吃有一些紅棗的一個"},{"start":19109.668,"end":19135.632,"text":"施料的話他就比較不會打嗝啊不打嗝的話他就減少排放出甲烷這些我們其實都知道就是說養豬也是一樣啊豬的一個分量你剛剛就特別提到了就是豬也是可以讓他產生了一個早氣齁低塞齁產生了一個早氣那就是不知道就是說在這個畜牧產業的一個減碳的一個輔導是不是有一些有計劃性的一個推動"},{"start":19136.752,"end":19152.704,"text":"我們現在在爭取保險業的預算其實我們希望找這個變成一個民間可以投資的機會除了民間的投資以外我們公務部門我想希望你們也有一些計畫我希望就三個月內提出這一些計畫跟本席報告 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝賴會員、委員發言"},{"start":19159.144,"end":19166.008,"text":"葉淵芝委員、葉淵芝委員、葉淵芝委員、葉淵芝委員不在陳穎委員發言麻煩請彭部長還有循環署賴署長賴署長"},{"start":19189.106,"end":19211.473,"text":"在這個光輝十月我們的這個國慶日這個普天同慶的日子但是這個雲林有一家的資收廠有一位16年資歷的這個勞工摔進了這個機器裡面他的上半身是被絞碎的然後下半身是被打包起來的"},{"start":19213.168,"end":19242.268,"text":"這個死狀是非常的淒慘這樣子的一個公安事件那部長這個新聞你有關注嗎有我有看到那我想為了協助推動這個循環經濟的這個國家重大政策勞動部在上個月13日同意環境部的這個無工廠登記證資源化產業開放移工目前呢已經列管的這個資收廠總共有600多家相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦"},{"start":19242.748,"end":19271.562,"text":"他只是說這個當下本國勞工的這個工作環境已經差成這樣子那未來在引進外籍勞工的時候本席是會擔心就是說恐怕會有這個更差的這個狀況那環境部就是花了蠻多的經費在辦展覽但是對於這些特別是剛剛也提到這些這個資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題卻關心的比例是非常失衡的"},{"start":19272.122,"end":19289.768,"text":"所以因為環境部大概督查的這個對象大部分都是大廠還有這個模範廠那接下來呢環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商來做這個淨零碳排還有綠色成長所以本期是要求說"},{"start":19291.108,"end":19317.225,"text":"部長你對於針對這些這個資收業者的處理及這個處理業者的這個挹注的資源的協助然後還有你要協助他們這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換還有環境安全衛生以及勞動條件的提升然後來建構這個完善的循環經濟的政策目標部長我以上建議你能不能採納然後可以做到"},{"start":19318.446,"end":19335.804,"text":"謝偉其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手所以我其實淨零裡面我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金其實都把循環經濟這種資源循環這種回收的把它放進去那這個細節關於這個案例是不是請我署長再做一個回覆"},{"start":19337.176,"end":19342.438,"text":"那另外就是對於加強這個回收處理業我們也辦一些講習還有訓練好我想就以這個案例做為一個警惕好 那個賴署長請回座接下來我另外再請那個氣候變遷署的蔡署長"},{"start":19369.141,"end":19389.168,"text":"那目前環境部已經針對這個碳費徵收的這個三項執法制定完成那表示說碳排放減少的方向已經就比較逐漸的在明朗化比較明確了那也有專屬的網頁說明這是一件好事啦只是說因為我在看這個網頁齁就是一看就是看到這個師師開講可不可以"},{"start":19392.625,"end":19420.796,"text":"部長你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫施施開獎施施有兩種因為我們施政是一個有名的這個國際貿易法的專家、探權的專家所以這個是我特別因為我們環境部公關費不多就特別請他來幫忙做這樣宣導那我也替大家謝謝你那只是說如果今天是換人他沒有在這個位置做這個工作換人開獎的時候那要叫什麼"},{"start":19421.536,"end":19428.354,"text":"彭斯嗎?還是...好的我...這是一個短期的啦,就短期碳費的,你會不會很長期?"},{"start":19430.004,"end":19441.849,"text":"我們的詩詩可以先回座只是因為體力需要這樣子在今天的專案報告前的詩詩開講是已經有講就是說收費的281家有500間工廠左右這個排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量"},{"start":19452.573,"end":19466.25,"text":"這個呢 佔全國排放總量的54%那是不是表示說我們台灣一年的總碳排的總碳排是換算大概是287百萬公噸是這樣沒錯嗎對 沒錯沒錯"},{"start":19469.213,"end":19490.508,"text":"那接下來我要請教部長就是說因為目前我們大概只是好像只是關注這個碳費要如何徵收所以在各個產業似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司可是呢這個歐盟跟英國他也會在2026年還有2027年來透過這個CBAN的制度來徵收碳稅"},{"start":19494.711,"end":19510.349,"text":"環境部你們有沒有評估過說還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊還有這樣的狀況應該要如何因應因為畢竟這整個來說這個時間是非常有限的特別是就是說排放量不足2.5萬噸的這個製造業的廠商"},{"start":19515.294,"end":19542.296,"text":"在確定台灣政府不會徵收的前提之下那未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費有沒有這樣可能?其實第一個是我們的這個2.5未來會往下調這是確定的兩年調整一次那第二個是因為減碳是國際上一定要碳定價是國際的趨勢所以基本上如果他未來任何的企業他只要想外銷的話"},{"start":19542.836,"end":19565.309,"text":"都有必須要被課到碳費稅的可能性存在所以其實這個都必須要做的啦好所以就比較不會有我剛剛擔心的那些問題對其實要逐步的就是說如果這個企業是內銷型的他當然影響比較小那如果他要出口到國際上的他當然就有一定的壓力所以要提早佈局就是這個的由來啦"},{"start":19566.049,"end":19590.043,"text":"我另外要提一個問題就是說你們用詞你們環境部用詞的問題在你們的這個事實開講有講到就是114年114年的開徵但是實際上我們都知道就是比如說我們今年114年如果申報那真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用這樣沒有錯"},{"start":19594.005,"end":19619.704,"text":"那到底什麼時候開始實行在你們報告第一段說中國已經開始實施碳費徵收那我要請教就是說他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了因為畢竟我們就是說雖然兩岸現況不是統一的但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一這樣才不會造成說國內業者的困擾"},{"start":19620.592,"end":19647.387,"text":"報告委員其實中國是用這個碳交易的制度針對電力業首先是電力業他也逐步的在跨他們很早就開始在4點大概在10多年前就開始進行了所以現在所以他們算是已經繳費了已經用碳交易就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度好再來就是我另外要請教的是一個技術的問題就是收費公式這個好"},{"start":19650.99,"end":19677.122,"text":"你們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整"},{"start":19679.471,"end":19703.501,"text":"是這樣嗎?對好那未來而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整嗎?所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?"},{"start":19704.642,"end":19719.567,"text":"跟委員報告 這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數"},{"start":19730.356,"end":19744.735,"text":"我知道啊但是你的二期三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說"},{"start":19745.436,"end":19749.4,"text":"因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴格"},{"start":19770.62,"end":19795.634,"text":"因為我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折"},{"start":19797.14,"end":19822.882,"text":"但是但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳"},{"start":19823.542,"end":19839.792,"text":"所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣講,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少"},{"start":19840.8,"end":19859.727,"text":"那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭"},{"start":19862.006,"end":19879.293,"text":"有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理"},{"start":19882.505,"end":19904.562,"text":"謝謝 我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在"},{"start":19907.944,"end":19922.65,"text":"你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值"},{"start":19926.175,"end":19933.778,"text":"因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊"},{"start":19953.564,"end":19954.805,"text":"2.5萬公噸是佔多少?很低"},{"start":19975.762,"end":19998.921,"text":"很低多少我算好了我念給你聽啊百分之這是那個2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做就是數字套還是"},{"start":20001.099,"end":20020.714,"text":"這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字"},{"start":20026.786,"end":20030.341,"text":"我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊"},{"start":20032.029,"end":20040.851,"text":"我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是"},{"start":20059.514,"end":20059.894,"text":"剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?"},{"start":20080.985,"end":20109.817,"text":"好啦,你們大家好好算一算啦,如果它是一個非常明顯的數字,我們大家不會愣在這,好不好?好,謝謝陳英委員。非常抱歉,因為今天時間真的非常的久。那下次如果在立法院這邊的話,如果超過吃飯時間,就是希望部會直接把便當發下去,讓各個同仁能夠吃飯,要不然真的從12點到現在已經超過兩個小時了,真的非常的辛苦。"},{"start":20111.212,"end":20129.493,"text":"對阿好那接下來請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在好那我們今天的會議詢答全部結束委員賴會員、葉元芝委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定"},{"start":20130.153,"end":20142.497,"text":"報告及詢答完畢,委員質詢,未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆,委員另要求期限者從其所定。今天的會議到此結束,現在散會。"},{"start":20175.328,"end":20175.548,"text":"主席"},{"start":20194.302,"end":20195.943,"text":"發了一個宣誓"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:29:58 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for all我們來看一下他告訴我們可以幫忙處理日常行政可以資源決策可以優化公共服務GBT還告訴我們可以協助監管還有教育跟培訓但是GBT同時也提醒我們為政府機關帶來高效的運作模式可試驗面臨隱私數據安全我就直接提出來第一個"},{"start":193.71,"end":215.956,"text":"目前我們知道台灣有自己在做泰德但是各個部會現在是開始用泰德在做一些事情嗎還是其實是用拉瑪帶回自己的每一個部會自己做開發還是透過不要讓請外面廠商做一些事情我覺得我時間有限我不勞煩人事長在這邊回答但是我覺得人事長你必須要協同各個部會去理解他們目前在做的事情到底是走到哪一個階段"},{"start":216.676,"end":238.09,"text":"再來哪些資料可以被處理或是可以怎麼被處理還有每一個行政機關他們對於所謂非機敏資料的定義我們目前聽到為止好像沒有太多共同的討論但是我覺得這個是人民會在意的事情人民當然相信政府導入AI是好的公務人員也相信導入AI是好的可是非機敏資料我身為一個就診的人"},{"start":239.651,"end":240.232,"text":"公務需求的使用"},{"start":263.394,"end":263.654,"text":"人事長 簡單回應一下"},{"start":289.613,"end":317.24,"text":"我想這個部分我們會跟書畫部一起來討論事實上以我的理解這個過程中很重要的是transparency我的資料在政府機關的流通被哪些機關什麼時候用到當事人一定要能夠在第一個時間就知道等一下 任市長你這句話有點危險我先跟你說你說當事人要第一時間知道可是光是今天交資料出來這麼多部會他們所有的資料都能夠被每一個"},{"start":318.649,"end":319.709,"text":"人事長你剛講這個我都挺擔心我很開心聽到你說"},{"start":339.497,"end":340.478,"text":"臺灣自己的泰德在做資料訓練的時候以我來自的出版業告訴我"},{"start":368.921,"end":395.121,"text":"臺的去叫出版業授權給他們可是不付錢欸那但是我們還有付了一千萬給中央社去授權那個資料也就是說資料有沒有價格這件事情資料是不是有價這件事情就很多商業跟非商業討論我們都可以吵得半天更何況是一般人民的資料所以我今天不是要來argue說不能用這個資料而是我們在用這個資料的時候我們如何訂定跟人民溝通的那個管道把這個論述講清楚不然我相信所有的人權團體站出來我們會被K死欸"},{"start":399.349,"end":400.03,"text":"好,謝謝主席,謝謝人事長,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:16:25 - 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GPT就是深層式的深層式的人工智慧事實上"},{"start":339.455,"end":357.169,"text":"這兩個事實上是有一個程度落差因為你導入的類似ChangeGPT這一種你必須要考慮到算力的問題考慮到資料的問題還有考慮到你的演送法的問題那過去這幾年我知道的像桃園還有台北市新北"},{"start":357.609,"end":357.629,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":374.978,"end":402.179,"text":"是從AI再進化到所謂的善用深層式人工智慧來加速政府的一個流程再造裡面一個很重要的剛才有委員在關心的兩個問題嘛一個是為民服務品質的提高一個是行政效力可是這裡面最核心的部分應該是一個流程改造你用新的東西進來你流程如果不改的話整個效果是會"},{"start":402.779,"end":403.439,"text":"大打折扣"},{"start":423.404,"end":437.221,"text":"佩爾專案主要是把那OpenAI跟那個ChatGPT融進他們的那個Word的系統裡面去減輕公務員的寫作研究的一些負擔我想說因為我看他們的那個"},{"start":438.822,"end":464.437,"text":"報告裡面說他們的政府有85%的政府機關都有導入人工智慧的系統在協助公務員的辦這個是新加坡臺北辦事處網頁裡面的資料我想說我們臺灣在硬體上面竟然可以當一個世界領頭羊那在這個軟體的設計在這個AI的運用上面是不是也要加強一下這再麻煩次長這邊也能做到"},{"start":465.157,"end":467.959,"text":"老機法修正後65歲強制退休改成得由勞僱雙方協商後延後"},{"start":493.303,"end":495.985,"text":"公有管理要點第21條到底有沒有適用勞基法這次修正"},{"start":504.94,"end":506.421,"text":"因為各機關裡面的勞工其實是非常多蠻多的啦"},{"start":531.034,"end":548.963,"text":"現在他們各自向自己所屬的機關去詢問這個東西說可不可以適用這次勞基法修正所有的機關都推來推去但是因為關係到人這麼多是不是麻煩你們要趕快處理更何況這個要點是你們內部修正就可以嘛這應該很簡單啊"},{"start":551.204,"end":572.71,"text":"如果說是不是可以盡快把這個事情釐清否則就會變成說他的老闆如果是一般民間企業那我就適用這個可以雙方再協商如果我的老闆是公部門那我就不適用這個是很奇怪的好不好這麻煩人事長你這個部分能夠兩個月內能夠告訴我們一下你們的那個修法"},{"start":573.43,"end":575.292,"text":"人種避菌公務員的勤修及福利事項是人種在管的"},{"start":595.43,"end":610.727,"text":"這次我看到一個特種警消成立協會的門檻這次草案是從800人降到300人是有降低他們成立這個協會的門檻有降低但是現在有一個問題就是說"},{"start":615.572,"end":629.884,"text":"原來的法案跟未來的草案其實都沒有提到都沒有同意說將來這個協會可以跟公部門有個團體協約出來那我想我看到前序不好意思再給我一分鐘"},{"start":630.885,"end":659.355,"text":"全序部的報告美國英國跟法國都有承認這些團體協約的權利就是這個協約權的結果是能夠有效拘束政府機關的否則這些團體你不讓他成立工會你也不敢讓他罷工結果他今天有任何的權利想要爭取像消防員的消防設備有問題或什麼結果他今天講沒有人理他們到現在還在抗爭每年死了幾位消防員"},{"start":659.895,"end":659.915,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":681.365,"end":681.385,"text":"吳宗憲"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:04:24 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對不對"},{"start":69.615,"end":95.098,"text":"對 那繼續我們來談論你要建立各階層對於AI的認識跟共識你也要透過種子人才的一個培訓嘛 對不對這針對於關鍵人才是非常的重要這是目前你所推動的所以本席要請教你目前的進度如何因為據本席了解你預定要辦了六場嘛 是嗎"},{"start":99.463,"end":113.632,"text":"針對科長以上的這些總值我們今年會辦一班明年會辦五班因為每一班的課程會有三天的課程受完訓以後他還是要去考試所以今年辦一場你這六場是明年五場"},{"start":114.832,"end":133.747,"text":"對 另外這個還要搭配樹花部因為我們辦的是針對業務人員的科長以上樹花部辦的是針對諮詢人員我們兩個機關是有在合作你在7月份的時候你沒有報告你在7月份的時候你辦了高階人才AI的共識營內部的訓練成員是以部長為主是嗎"},{"start":137.984,"end":139.505,"text":"各層級大家陸續那請教在你的7月份辦的高階人才的以部長為主的共事營的主軸是什麼"},{"start":156.82,"end":174.796,"text":"大概我們有請幾個比較有名的講者來講整個國家導入AI的一個機會跟它的挑戰這些相關的然後在應用實務上要導入可能會面臨這個是在7月份的時候部長級的主軸嗎"},{"start":177.379,"end":198.281,"text":"部長、次長還有三級機關首長基本上就是以這個主軸所以這個也就是各階層大家一起來訓練那麼同時我們在談到數位部跟你是同步的來合作所以因此你在公務機關運用AI的工作坊"},{"start":199.062,"end":224.262,"text":"以及公務機關AI應用的成果競賽這是你們目的要做的也就是互相的經驗交流跟學習是不是如此提到的工作坊跟競賽是樹花部主辦我們是協作你們協作是以他為主嗎以他為主大家互相合作所以在這樣的情況下你的目的要做什麼"},{"start":225.526,"end":246.559,"text":"我覺得這一個很重要的今年以今年年底要辦的這個工作坊主要就是讓以有些中央跟地方那已經導入人工智慧的就是請他們來demo他們從故鄉為什麼要去導入人工智慧導入了人工智慧之前before跟after來分享"},{"start":247.259,"end":249.04,"text":"所以人事長你剛才所說的也就是希望在整個AI的運用能夠增加在我們行政"},{"start":269.289,"end":292.097,"text":"的這個效能上面的速度．廣度跟深度．所以除了這個閻錫銀．最重要的要有工作坊互相的在合作．因此速發部有說．今年年底他要提出AI的應用執意．來作為公務機關帶來哪些的幫助．是不是"},{"start":292.697,"end":295.982,"text":"本集的問題提問回答也就是在年底速發部要釋出這個AI的應用指引是不是?"},{"start":308.871,"end":325.537,"text":"你不知道這個事情啊那你怎麼跟他合作呢我知道這個問題你知道這個問題他什麼時候要公布我不知道我不曉得什麼時候他可以公布那剛剛他主辦工作坊成果發表他主辦你們要交流那你連數位部"},{"start":326.377,"end":352.02,"text":"他年底要釋出的這個AI應用指引你都不知道你是人事長欸你的體系是牽扯了所有的行政部門欸那你都不知道他的KPI在哪裡那你要依照什麼指引你知不知道他什麼時候他要出來所以政府的橫向聯繫非常重要欸他主辦你協辦你連這個都不知道那怎麼辦"},{"start":353.498,"end":381.743,"text":"那怎麼辦你連這個都不知道最重要的AI的應用指引這一個指引非常的重要什麼時候要訂出來他年底第一版就會先出來你因著我的話講我也給你認同我告訴你難怪你會笑不要笑年底他會釋出AI的應用指引那最重要本需要告訴你也就是這個指引你知道它的方向是什麼嗎"},{"start":391.004,"end":401.35,"text":"這也是我們大家都清楚的而且世界各國也在這麼做本席要告訴你一件事情你有沒有加入你的AI風險管理"},{"start":404.475,"end":405.596,"text":"這是一定要的部分"},{"start":432.748,"end":434.729,"text":"指引必須要有風險控管管理你有跟他談過什麼"},{"start":457.484,"end":477.934,"text":"你跟著本席的話語來講OK我也就是勉勵你務必這個風險管理非常的重要因為現在24小時7天也就是全天候在AI的導入所以因此本席還要再給你一個功課因為這個指引下來分布各個部門那到時候風險控管出了問題誰負責"},{"start":484.696,"end":489.458,"text":"請教讓他回答誰負責人事長這個問題既然我們提出這個指引必須要有風險管理那有問題誰負責是你人事長負責嗎還是各部門各個部位他引用的話他自己要負責因為該賴已經講清楚了我們就是要理清楚風險管理很重要謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:55:47 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ICON也可以不一樣這到底怎麼回事下一頁"},{"start":378.823,"end":403.435,"text":"再來一些隱藏的問題我們來看一下反應速度太慢而且誰來把關我們看下一頁這個10月11號就有人上傳監理站的偽造網頁是要騙民眾去刷卡的到現在他已經說已經通知速發布了當天就通知速發布了結果現在還沒下下來我們看下一頁"},{"start":404.932,"end":410.971,"text":"我自己是立法委員有一個偽造的頁面我自己通報結果到現在也還在上面下一頁"},{"start":412.294,"end":438.452,"text":"賴清德總統的官方YouTube被通報結果對你們說是疑似詐騙網頁這是怎麼回事啊我想今天都只是一個交流啦那也謝謝主席啦我想打詐通查網是一個很好的開始但是我們絕對要導入最好的科技最先進的科技我們要用科技來打詐不要只是測試不要只是做做樣子人民非常的期待我們也一定要努力好不好謝謝好謝謝葛委員謝謝次長"},{"start":441.914,"end":443.5,"text":"好 那麼因為先處理會議時間 上午會議時間我們繼續進行"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:15 - 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有請我們人事長請蘇人事長我也很早人事長你大概是我看過我們中央這個各部部位當中最有笑容的人現在都戰鬥內閣所以看到你很開心現在"},{"start":28.7,"end":52.359,"text":"我今天提的題目就是應該要全面性的提升智慧型的公務大軍36萬的大軍人事長這個職務人事長這個職務何等的重要因為我來自企業界企業界當中都有CEOCEO如果想要做這個整個企業的變革"},{"start":54.702,"end":65.534,"text":"因應所有事情最重要身邊的那一個人就叫什麼人事長人事長對不對所以整個的政府我們現在的"},{"start":66.926,"end":95.595,"text":"全球面臨的數位化、高聯化、全球化現在可以講說21世紀已經進入一個全面性改變的時代全面性的政治、經濟、產業的競爭所有都不一樣但是我們的政府是20世紀的機器應該吧法規、編制、制度都來自於那裡所以如果一個企業"},{"start":96.835,"end":96.935,"text":"我們當然﹖"},{"start":121.014,"end":142.559,"text":"辦演一個非常重要就是引領公務人員創新變革的一個非常重要的機構所以人事長我當然也相信因為你的資歷非常的完整從105年擔任副任市長所以業務你非常的熟悉而且你本身是理工的底子練統計然後練電腦練數位所以這方面數據我們來看這個剛才講的數位化高聯化"},{"start":149.801,"end":173.611,"text":"我不曉得這個這麼大的 現在一直我在提的壯世代 我在談這個 但是我發現我們的政府是沒有這個觀念的1970年的人口圖一個金字塔 當時人口的中位數19歲到了2040年人口中位數是52歲 台灣天翻地覆 這你知道吧"},{"start":175.051,"end":198.544,"text":"上次有跟我提點過這個禮拜是那個國發會要公布新的人口因為那兩年公布一次那每年都是八月拖到現在不敢公布我問了那個國發委員那個劉主委說為什麼拖到現在是不是事情變得更嚴重他點頭嚴重到不敢公布"},{"start":199.554,"end":199.834,"text":"來 我們看一下"},{"start":214.005,"end":238.083,"text":"第一件我要拜託這個人事長第一個公務人員的觀念要翻新觀念翻新人總有責政府對高齡者處處歧視我在這裡這個已經是我談了一個會期了每一個部會除了衛福部之外幾乎所有的高齡者60歲以上的"},{"start":239.215,"end":243.686,"text":"沒有政策都沒辦法的事預算都不占不到他該部會的1%"},{"start":245.58,"end":274.083,"text":"教育部 中生教育師 佔教育部預算的0.2%文化部 數位部 幾乎都通通一樣差不多我再講了政府公務單位 包括上禮拜我還諮詢國科會說你有沒有高齡的科技政策他說科技政策不為特定人服務我說你把高齡者當特定人你要害死人我們國科會的科學家講說佔三分之一人口說是特定人"},{"start":275.044,"end":280.455,"text":"這充滿了在我們政府的腦袋裡面是不是可以請那個人事長我們這個真的是認知還留在1970年農業社會"},{"start":286.929,"end":309.065,"text":"我們的政府很多人員都還停留在這樣子來看高齡政策在80天台灣進入超高齡社會了是不是可以這樣子我們有一個教育訓練中心我們現在那個院長是不是在這裡是不是應該要排入這種課程讓大家有點警覺接下來第二個當然是數位平權"},{"start":310.714,"end":335.749,"text":"現在導入AI是一件好事嘛但是正如導入AI高齡者AI你知道嗎你知道那個在疫情之後所有的東西都要數位化你要打疫苗要上網不能出門吃飯你要叫那個負邊塔也要會懂的AI你要看個影片在家裡很無聊不能去都要會懂的結果你知道"},{"start":337.774,"end":346.088,"text":"連臺北市都有60%的高齡者沒有能力使用數位化我們政府都要數位化你有沒有去兼顧這一塊"},{"start":351.084,"end":369.961,"text":"委員關心的是數位包容的部分事實上整個塑化部在推動這個過程中也一直有去注意到那剛才委員關注了議題事實上總統在國慶的一個演說裡面也有特別提到關注老年人的這個福利的部分"},{"start":371.703,"end":399.401,"text":"這個過面我們會協調相關部會應該要去注意啦應該注意因為講的都講很久了啦但是事實上都沒有在做啦OK落差很大我告訴你這個在2022年的資料我們的這個60歲以上的懸崖懸崖的段落的東西現在的政府都沒有發現都在做偏鄉跟兒童的數位落差成鄉除了成鄉沒有數位落差啦落差大概5%而已你這個落成"},{"start":400.502,"end":405.988,"text":"學歷跟這種年齡的落差像懸崖上的這一點要重視我最後一個問題再來的話就是制度這一點這個是今年6月的一個臺鐵有一個人去考這個臺鐵"},{"start":419.448,"end":420.109,"text":"公務體系的人力斷層非常厲害"},{"start":434.705,"end":450.619,"text":"那是不是包括我也在勞動部勞動基準法第54條修正65歲以後可以登經勞資協商延長退休那很多人就跟反應就是軍公教可不可以"},{"start":451.5,"end":476.811,"text":"軍公教的現正高齡社會來臨這個已經面臨到這裡了我問了到底這是誰負責權序不負責還是誰後來我問了還是你這邊要負責了你要啟動這樣子的討論跟修法的那個很多軍人40幾歲退休然後很多公務單位公務人員50歲就開始準備帶隊這個龐大的公務大軍的這個退休制度是不是人事長"},{"start":477.691,"end":480.999,"text":"是不是應該要到了應該要大幅檢討的時候了"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:39:58 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對不對"},{"start":665.143,"end":665.403,"text":"主席"},{"start":681.267,"end":704.259,"text":"這個合乎經濟效益嗎?這合乎對這些苦救難的需要幫助的人是不是有事實的效應?但是現在聽到 消防署內政部不斷表達說人事總處這裡不給援俄這個是救命的援俄啊!這是救命的事情啊!救命的事情救人是不是如救火?是不是?"},{"start":708.42,"end":730.164,"text":"我們之前有找國家公園還有林保署還有消防署一起去討論過這個問題應該會有一些解決的一個比較好的一個方向好 那個人事長既然是國家公園是內政部管轄怎麼會叫地方政府繞半個台灣去救援呢這個計不可乎現在21世紀"},{"start":734.915,"end":751.775,"text":"阿救人一命阿 甚兆其極糊塗阿糊塗阿所以阿 要拜託人事長阿這個阿 我們要進入AI時代了不要還是用這個清朝還是明朝的方式來救人好不好好不好 謝謝好 謝謝總召好 謝謝副總召"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:27:14 - 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data本來就是政府資訊公開來符合的資料本來就要放在上面所以跟那個我們比較confidential的這個部分就沒有關"},{"start":185.796,"end":198.371,"text":"你只能講你個人的阿你團體使用你怎麼知道你們底下的人他把什麼資料去問他呢你怎麼知道他問什麼呢那是你阿你也許講說你本來知道的"},{"start":200.993,"end":227.859,"text":"他上面的是屬於公開資料,另外我們有用地端的,有些資料是不能對外公開的,我們就放在地端,沒有放在雲端,我們有做這樣的差別嗎?吉同家講,我現在是講說,你自己可以這樣子做,可是你底下的人,他不知道啊!你底下的人怎麼用你知道嗎?他應該問一下,啊我現在這個放假的問題你給我回答一下,他就跟你回答,你們資料就出去了,怎麼沒有呢?對不對?"},{"start":231.957,"end":232.838,"text":"你沒辦法保證啊"},{"start":252.277,"end":275.578,"text":"這張喔 或是我剛才說的兩項啦 一個雲端的就是開放資料 阿如果在地端就是不可以我出去網購的來 你還是沒有回答問題的齁 時間快到了所以我不再問你了 來我們書畫部的齁AI資料的進出可以不可以管制 當我們政府機關去跟AI 比如說CHAT的GBT 裡面有互動的時候 我們有沒有辦法管制我們的職涵 有沒有辦法"},{"start":276.799,"end":306.04,"text":"這個在目前的各部會的指引裡面因為行政院頒布的指引裡面就有規定機敏資料不能上去那所以現在是用指引的方法各部會訂指引的方法先做這樣的處理然後速發部這邊呢我們在做評測的時候會針對這個大型語言模型的資安跟他有沒有竊取你的資料去做評測那必須是評測過了以後我們才會放你沒有沒有評估了哪些AI可用哪些AI不能用"},{"start":307.282,"end":308.865,"text":"目前這個評測中心已經評測了幾個幾個不可以有人跟我們講"},{"start":314.702,"end":339.8,"text":"我看到資安比較好的應該是那個拉瑪拉瑪3.0的資安非常好那其他很多都沒有到達滿分CHECK的GPT不好?CHECK的GPT因為他剛剛就是委員講的他免費的版本他會收你的資料所以如果你用付費的版本像剛剛人事總處他用付費的版本他是不能收你的資料的"},{"start":340.171,"end":348.46,"text":"沒有沒有我再強調一個20塊錢美金20塊錢以下的資安都很可能露出去了20塊錢以上的相對好一點"},{"start":349.465,"end":349.605,"text":"好 謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:20:46 - 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人事長吳安吳安好今天我們對於如何將AI導入政府機關提升效能來進行相關的這個探討尤其在我們AI近幾年是全世界各領域都是最熱門的一個關鍵字的搜尋那我們也看到賴總統和內閣團隊都展現決心要打造台灣成為智慧國家"},{"start":42.486,"end":54.92,"text":"但是科技的發展日新月異在人才法規乃至於在整體發展環境上政府都有責任走在最前面帶領各行各業來發展人工智慧的應用"},{"start":56.144,"end":83.796,"text":"我也了解到我們這個各部會其實都有對於引用AI的這個部分提出相應的規劃和措施也如同人事長先前所說的公部門發展AI最所要的就是在人才培育所以我想就目前人總對於推動公務員的這個人力培訓的規劃來救教我們人事長如果政府要普及AI的應用"},{"start":84.257,"end":90.415,"text":"可能普及到公務體系當中的每一個同仁我看到不管是人種或是速發部"},{"start":91.844,"end":116.526,"text":"對於AI人才培訓都有做出分級的規劃我想了解的是在政府現行的規劃下我們對於基層的公務人員具體上所希望擁有的基礎資能為何預計要多久時間來進行培訓在習得基礎能力之後目前主要如何運用在我們"},{"start":117.796,"end":141.741,"text":"這個辦公的場域當中我們想請教我們人事長謝謝委員這個問題我想大家委員也知道全國大概21萬的公務人員如果全部的課程要用實體課程來執行上會有其困難的地方所以我們現在從9月1號開始我們已經在數位學習的平台放了五門"},{"start":142.501,"end":143.122,"text":"陳俊宇議員"},{"start":170.723,"end":170.743,"text":"我們滾動檢討"},{"start":190.294,"end":197.697,"text":"因為這個總職人員訓練完以後他會回去擴散在每一個部會甚至地方政府的部分大家一起進來這樣整個國家在推動人工智慧這速度會比較快"},{"start":214.383,"end":216.863,"text":"對於這個高階人才的培訓那剛剛那個人事長您也說了我們會"},{"start":243.908,"end":244.808,"text":"人事總署安排的課程來配合學習"},{"start":261.821,"end":276.688,"text":"政府在培養AI人才的資源上是否應擴大運用公司部門共同協力而且在法規面尚未完備的情況下我們要先對於現有的平台來深化AI的使用"},{"start":277.931,"end":301.543,"text":"我跟委員報告一下事實上人事總處來講我們的專長大概就是人事行政的那這些人工智慧的這些專門的領域事實上過去這幾年也謝謝人工智慧學校跟工研院那裡有團隊來協助我們去做這樣的事情所以我們現在很多課程的規劃跟執行事實上是跟民間來搭配"},{"start":302.003,"end":328.838,"text":"然後今年跟明年我們也安排一些已經導入人工智慧的我帶我們的公務同仁去現場見習這樣看人家怎麼做這個印象會比較深刻所以我們才複合式的方式在推動這也是接下來我要問的那我們這些高階的人才在經過完整的這個規劃培訓之後都是公部門非常寶貴的人力"},{"start":329.398,"end":350.592,"text":"那在業界同樣都是求財若渴那會不會有大量的我們高階人才因為在這個過程裡面被挖角的可能那我們人種在策略上應該如何來避免未來會產生這樣的情形反過來有沒有在擬定從業界招募這個AI即戰力的這個規劃"},{"start":352.441,"end":366.8,"text":"我覺得我目前整個策略上就是普遜所有的公務同仁就是把人工智慧變成他必要的一個核心能力就是一個DNA的概念"},{"start":367.621,"end":383.37,"text":"要從業界挖人進來主要就是請他們來擔任業師的角色來教導然後直接就引進來因為公務機關本身我們有公務人員服務法的一些限制所以要挖過來"},{"start":384.611,"end":386.011,"text":"有些公務同仁我們在應用的那種情境跟民間的可能會有落差"},{"start":400.976,"end":401.776,"text":"希望守住我們的好人才"},{"start":430.164,"end":455.757,"text":"當然當然那另外因為這個AI應用對於軟體和硬體的這個要求都會比過去來的這個高許多了那各部門在採購軟硬體設備時有自己的這個考量規格不見得是最高階的而在軟體上就連公文系統各部門使用的也不見得是來自同一家廠商我想請教我們的市長是不是有需要對於我們公部門軟硬體設備的這個"},{"start":458.479,"end":476.518,"text":"採購或是相關的這個過程進行盤點的更新簡單講就是要怎麼去把它整合我想策略上剛才速發部的次長也已經提過了因為人工智慧的這種運算他的算力需求非常"},{"start":477.419,"end":477.439,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":501.081,"end":519.323,"text":"好 那這部分還是請我們人事總處這邊就是盡量去做整合啦好 人事長您先請 我想請那個經濟部跟農業部的代表好 我們"},{"start":520.123,"end":537.298,"text":"目前政府在使用AI提升公務效能之餘也應該有貼近民眾的這個相關日常生活我想就遭逢這個我們天災情況的時候也就是這個防災應用的部分來和我們經濟部來做討論"},{"start":539.059,"end":551.435,"text":"今年我們臺灣接連受到這個凱米颱風還有山陀颱風的這個侵襲在各地造成不少的災情尤其我們也看到許多的這個地區因為強降雨或是豪大雨而導致積水淹水的狀況那行政院也在109年曾經合併這個水災智慧的防災計畫"},{"start":557.222,"end":579.875,"text":"至今也已經辦了快5年而這今年也合訂了第二期的計畫在未來5年要投入超過30億以上的預算我想全台灣智慧防汛網的建置工程應該是由經濟部水利署來主責那我想請教在第一期的計畫中AI應用於這個防汛工作上有哪些具體的成果"},{"start":580.655,"end":587.22,"text":"以及在第2期這個5年的30.9億當中我們要如何來擴大使用AI的這個房債跟委員報告因為經濟部整個部長現在對AI的發展很重視所以他要求各部會各局處都要嚴厲的遵守那至於你提到水利署的計畫我想因為我是紀錄師的代表我回去轉告水利署一提書面報告給委員那會後這個部分再給我書面的資料"},{"start":610.037,"end":634.839,"text":"那我們也看到這個智慧防災計畫當中有使用這個AI輔助監控並辨識淹水的狀況能夠隨時掌握到各地這個積水或淹水的情況也能夠提前預警達到減災的效果像是這一次這個山陀台風來襲我跟這個農業部長陳部長視察防災的相關情形的時候當時這個"},{"start":637.506,"end":657.849,"text":"也有提到我們農業要導入AI來建置智慧防災系統應用於農田水利設施的管理包括監控這個排水系統和遠端操作水閘門的這個開啟還有這個關閉等等那我想請教我們農業部在AI建置智慧防災系統上目前辦理的情況如何"},{"start":658.587,"end":679.411,"text":"跟委員報告其實那一天就是部長和委員到宜蘭去看那個農田防災的那個相關農田水利署的計畫那我回去我會跟農田水利署來向委員提出書面的報告好那這個部分還是會後給我一份完整的資料那以上就大概就對經濟部跟這個農業部相關的這個質詢就會後提供這個完整針對剛剛的這個問題的這個需求的這些答詢好 謝謝"},{"start":688.951,"end":689.575,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:03:38 - 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請蘇人事長 薛次長 還有陳副主委"},{"start":16.901,"end":37.339,"text":"大家早安今天周圍安排了這一個AI為主題的專案報告然後呢部會來列席的好多部會等等這樣一卦所以代表我們要打造確實是一個AI的國家對在公務體系裡頭no one is outsider"},{"start":38.936,"end":45.39,"text":"沒有人是局外人各個部會都有承擔責任不管是培育或是參與"},{"start":48.973,"end":69.814,"text":"那AI列入我們五大信賴產業當中跟AI相關的就是我們的國家雄心壯志是打造台灣為全球AI影響力中心推動目標裡頭呢當然希望有產值但是在人才的部分"},{"start":70.555,"end":94.765,"text":"全國公司協力4年內培育20萬名AI數位人才然後提升數位經濟產業導入AI的應用普及率是50%對於製造業來導入AI的普及率要到3成今天的主題是我們公務部門其實也是順著剛剛我們趙薇所問的"},{"start":97.486,"end":126.395,"text":"到底這麼多部會是國家隊每一個部會的職﹑你的職長都跟AI的應用相關到底誰管好我現在要問這個問題啦我們對於數位經濟導入要4年5成對於製造業導入AI技術要4年3成那我問這個問題我們的公務體系導入AI的應用4年內的目標是多少"},{"start":127.935,"end":149.789,"text":"誰可以回答這個問題?如果以剛剛鍾釗緯所問的、垂詢的誰在整合、誰在管考,你們沒有辦法回答所以我的問題你當然也沒有辦法回答這就是一個key point"},{"start":150.925,"end":165.925,"text":"國家隊 大家都有責任在自己的專善執掌裡頭想方設法去應用但是我們對於民間的產業有清楚的戰略目標對於公務體系我覺得不能夠"},{"start":167.286,"end":192.083,"text":"這樣子毫無清晰的目標值這個問題好好帶回去這就是我們要面對的問題在公務體系今天人事長處理的是公務體系的培訓嘛來下一頁總統說了我們AI時代來臨希望我們公務體系每一位首長每一位公務同仁都要有相關的AI知能"},{"start":193.581,"end":216.4,"text":"但是今天的主題我看到的如果是以因為法制委員會監督的是人事長我們可能會把他放在公務人力的人才培育但是我要說我們不只是培育公務體系的同仁有AI的知能更重要的是在國家的AI政策跟相關的應用上"},{"start":216.94,"end":245.633,"text":"其實是各部會是參與的角色包括我對人事長你的期待我們不是只辦訓練營讓大家知道AI是什麼剛剛鍾釗緯講得非常好啊對於山岸的協助對於矯正署法制委員會我們的法務部AI的應用何其之廣啊所以不是只有末端的人才培訓來告訴大家現在技術有哪些大家要懂重點是公務體系的應用"},{"start":248.017,"end":266.633,"text":"這個是前後非常重要的一個思維的翻轉,我在這裡一定要提出來喔,下一頁這個big data,新時代喔,資訊就是新的石油,因為我過去在教育文化委員會喔,我長期跟國科會來做這方面的討論,下一頁"},{"start":268.587,"end":288.557,"text":"所以在CHAP GPT引爆了AI的這個資訊資料庫的浪潮之後我過去質詢了國科會那時候的吳政中他是主委也兼政委所以提出了要在2024年是今年的預算已經在執行有40億國家投入AI的發展這是今年度的預算但是呢我們還是落後了"},{"start":298.183,"end":299.745,"text":"我今天就就這個資料庫來就教於三位"},{"start":320.439,"end":337.012,"text":"這個TED我們要推動可信任生成式的AI發展就在中研院去年發生了台灣的資訊資料庫不夠以至於我們中研院的研究員去引用了"},{"start":338.072,"end":363.994,"text":"中國建制的資料庫鬧出了笑話大家記得這件事所以在這個事件之後國科會述發部跟中研院就投入了3億要進行臺版的CHAP GPT也就是臺灣自治大型語言模型目前這個進度應當是進行來是要陳副主委回答還是要我們學次長"},{"start":365.3,"end":388.108,"text":"報告委員這應該是目前是國科會負責的那目前呢建制我們要創造台灣的資料數據建構台灣繁中系統的語言資料庫掌握data就是掌握了石油目前建制如何報告委員目前我們應該已經release了應該在今年的4月份有release一個版本出來"},{"start":391.049,"end":418.208,"text":"我看您今天沒有辦法回答細節你可以提供相關資料給本席我要提這個是我們的預算當初要建這個台版的CHAP GDP是3億左右的預算那我剛剛講的即便3億之外要40億投入國家隊的AI發展我們還是落後先進國家非常多沒有預算就沒有辦法做事啦下一頁"},{"start":419.489,"end":423.272,"text":"我掌握到的國科會針對這個TED資料庫的新年度就是明年2025年的國家預算至少是1.37億這是新增預算新增計畫如果總預算繼續被擋下去的話這一個台灣的繁中語言資料庫的建制就成了受災戶我們就沒有辦法打我們的"},{"start":446.567,"end":475.186,"text":"這個AI跟世界各國一起比拼的這個資訊大戰你們有去跟在野黨委員爭取預算說明預算了嗎?這裡面有國客會預算大概1.37億速發部應該也有吧?速發部的預算是那個評測中心的預算一年8千億一年8千億所以總預算八檔就不一定不可以嘛我們今天在這裡爭取我們AI向前大步走預算沒過怎麼推啊?"},{"start":476.067,"end":496.078,"text":"我相信很多在野黨的委員也會在這裡要求你們我們要做多好做多多做多快預算沒過怎麼做呢我用的還只是這個TED資料庫繁中語言資料庫台版CHAP GDP的一個案例而已下一頁那另外就是"},{"start":500.074,"end":520.951,"text":"是為了AI基本法嗎?你們現在公告完成了10月底要送行政院其實面對資安、面對假訊息、面對侵權行為的頻傳台灣能不能夠快速地來去制定出台灣的AI基本法我去年在教育文化委員會我是質疑的"},{"start":522.622,"end":542.607,"text":"在世界各國還沒有他也許是指引歐美國家還沒有完成立法的台灣有信心做得到做得好嗎你們現在完成公告了收集社會的意見如何跟你們原始的法案的草擬的想像是如何來副主委"},{"start":543.808,"end":563.104,"text":"報告委員我們已經完成了公告那其實也收集了蠻多的建議的那我們也在這個收集完之後有納入方向跟原本的設定方向跟原本設定大同小異我們還是會這個鼓勵創新跟兼顧人權這兩個方向會同時"},{"start":563.464,"end":582.422,"text":"我沒有反對制定但是我是以國際經驗國外的AI每年投入這麼多預算的先進大國他們還是用指引的方式台灣能夠這麼快速的用一個立法的方式嗎我今天在這裡我還是質疑不需要為快而快"},{"start":583.447,"end":603.983,"text":"我們要做就要做對方向繼續對話好AI基本法涉及7大基本原則4大推動重點都是跨部會的所以我們成立了行政院數位法制協調專案會議下一頁人事長我們人事總處是outside"},{"start":605.247,"end":628.592,"text":"這樣對嗎?"},{"start":630.23,"end":653.855,"text":"這就回到我剛說的你只是負責培訓喔而不是參與喔你只是培育而不是參與喔我是假如他們有邀請我我一定去參加你覺得你需不需要在裡面啊你覺得你需不需要在裡面我是樂於積極參與對國家發展有幫助的我認為AI新時代公務體系的"},{"start":654.255,"end":683.057,"text":"瞭解AI的知能進一步的能夠更去應用它我們人事總處應當是insider否則你會留於後端一個知識性傳授的角色而已下一頁你看看這是我們開過三次會的會議結錄都提到各機關的座談會工作坊論壇去培育公務人員的AI知能"},{"start":684.403,"end":692.21,"text":"我認為這個你們在場三位來這個國科會跟速發部應該速發部這個應當把人事總處納進去吧這麼簡單的問題因為這個是"},{"start":704.093,"end":729.623,"text":"人事長公他願意勇於認識嗎 對不對一起參與嘛 我不說你主導嘛 你要加入嘛幕僚應該是國發會啦好 那請國發會 那請今天與會的國發會的代表把這個訊息帶回去好嗎 下一頁因為我們現在都是做培訓課程 我說他是很末端的 人事長下一頁"},{"start":732.54,"end":757.17,"text":"就以國科會定定的使用生成式AI的指引．裡頭每一項從國安資安人權隱私倫理保密各自保護著作權．完全都跟公務體系的user使用端有關．所以我們人事總處當然要盡可能多參與．而不是只顧政策訂出來我來培育就好下一頁"},{"start":758.308,"end":783.108,"text":"好 說到你自己的這個提供我時間到了AI基礎的訓練課程120小時不管是高考或普考在整個 對不起所有公務體系的120小時的訓練裡頭AI甚至是資安不是只有AI都只有加起來都各只有8小時比例只有6.66這個部分就是我們培訓端就完全是人事總處"},{"start":784.648,"end":812.535,"text":"這個人事長您的我各位這是保訓會的我們在跟保訓會溝通這不是AI課程喔這是資安plus裡面一小部分的AI如果我剛剛說的培訓你只做培訓不做前端政策應用的參與的話那培訓也要做得充足目前高考跟普考要新進公務體系的人員他的這方面的課程是非常的少的也不夠啦"},{"start":813.157,"end":836.076,"text":"我來蔡主委拜託所以我覺得我們今天拋出來的議題從嘉賓召委到思瑤我們連成一氣的觀點就是公務體系對於AI相關的發展他是要多參與而不是只有培育而參與的部分no one is outsider我認為人事長人才是重中之重"},{"start":837.057,"end":852.601,"text":"我也很期待對於立法院也能夠有相關的課程包括立委或是立委的助理幕僚們我們都要共同來理解AI的新時代好嗎?今天的問題很高興這張委說未來還會有專案報告對於我們的幾個核心命題我們的AI運用在公務體系有沒有什麼樣的目標誰來觀考好好思考這個問題好嗎?好一起加油謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:49:01 - 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第二個是演算法 第三個就是算力那之前算力沒有那麼強 人工智慧他發展的速度就比較慢 最近這幾年算力提升了以後那次長你認為 人事長跟副主委講的你都同意嗎"},{"start":131.619,"end":132.459,"text":"誰是政府導入AI的主責機關"},{"start":157.742,"end":177.023,"text":"我這邊列啦我看一下你們人事處有提五次策略啊人事總處啊書發部也提個五也是一樣啊五個策略誰是主管機關誰是主責我跟那個召委報告大概有主要的三個stakeholder那人總是負責公務人員的人工智慧的那書發部呢"},{"start":178.425,"end":194.921,"text":"蘇發部是負責整個政府在應用人工智慧的政策的規劃跟推動那國科會的角色是在定義類似人工智慧基本法還有他會有很多的﹖謝謝時間的關係 邱社長你同意剛剛人事長講的嗎"},{"start":197.799,"end":220.599,"text":"跟委員報告好 這個是一個非常複雜的問題有沒有簡單的回答我們沒有很多時間簡單的回答就是說因為當初在訂立人工智慧的時候所以你同意人事長所講的這個分工基本上是正確的OK好謝謝來我們看一下那人總跟速發部辦理AI課程的對象有何不同我跟委員報告一下是不是你們人總做的是業務人員那我們速發部找的是資訊人員"},{"start":221.701,"end":245.566,"text":"大概是中階的是屬於這樣啦 中階我們是找業務直接業務來訓練你提供一些情境讓他去轉換成人工智慧的這一種模式那薛市長你同意嗎我們這邊包含三個部分第一個部分是總指人員總指人員當然是希望是科長以上推動AI的人員"},{"start":246.286,"end":267.982,"text":"那第二個是有AI的公務人員的AI通識課程這個是針對一般的公務人員好那現在我進入那目前你們AI課程辦理的進入如何簡單的講我們現在有已經完成看起來是有將近800人次800人次來那個人事長那你們呢你們辦了好像三個營隊了嘛"},{"start":270.298,"end":271.439,"text":"這個我們事先有溝通過"},{"start":288.337,"end":290.318,"text":"政府導入AI如何防止資料被害?"},{"start":315.57,"end":327.267,"text":"這個應該是樹花部來回答以人種來講的話就上上禮拜提的是我們有雲端跟地端嗎我們是用地端因為我們的使用的時間關係來次長"},{"start":329.19,"end":345.769,"text":"那你認為人總這樣做那你們怎麼樣防止資料被害我們是在制度上就是規定你要進AI的東西資料要清過對就是這樣子不具機敏性的才可以上雲端因為他有時候會透過境外伺服器具機敏性的政府就要自建伺服器是不是這樣"},{"start":347.401,"end":370.733,"text":"這是一種方法政府的公文秘密目前有一個文書處理手冊請問人事長未來政府各機關以什麼機制標準作為機敏的資料分類有這樣一個標準出來了嗎人事長有沒有你們機敏資料分類不能上雲端的機敏資料怎麼分類有沒有分類辦法還是數位部"},{"start":373.465,"end":401.619,"text":"蘇衛部這邊是說就是說我要上雲端的資料要最小化是那要機敏分類嘛對不對機敏的不上嘛不只是機敏就是說就算是我了解但是機敏的不能讓他上去嘛好那你們怎麼確定他不是機敏來因為機敏的基本上不會電子化各機關各機關就判斷具不具有機敏性來那個人事長這樣子齁我現在就是說因為你們有你們的model有你們的方法但是方法之後呢要有手段"},{"start":402.489,"end":416.651,"text":"你們要先要求各機關在你們的學習課程當中各機關要能辨識區別哪些機敏資料不能上雲端除了最小化之外要減少伺服器的負擔那另外呢為了防止資料被害要不要自建AI伺服器"},{"start":418.407,"end":434.987,"text":"那你們是要用什麼預算去執行?用租的還是用買的?AI伺服器,因為AI本身算力很強來問一下次長,次長您覺得呢?基本上,包含電力的問題,支建伺服器可能不是一個最好的方法"},{"start":435.968,"end":460.349,"text":"那怎麼辦那所以基本上就算是上雲其實有一些軟體的手段可以完成這個治安的要求那這些報告你們打算怎麼做那我們會先做評測就是說你必須用評測的方法要不要預算執行這個當然需要預算執行所以你們要在預算上表達出來剛剛委員在關心預算你們都用優化啦擴充啦這些模糊的字眼我們希望未來兩個部會相關部會"},{"start":462.851,"end":484.802,"text":"政府導入AI防止被害．建立資料精敏分類．相關伺服器使用上．需要投入預算預防．要說明清楚,好不好?可以,往下所以你們承諾AI不會縮減緣額．人長是不是這樣子?那你們要怎麼做?你們要提供效能而不是縮減緣額那各機關用了AI之後．人不需減少．但是效能怎麼提升?你怎麼驗測?事實上導入AI．請內政部、農業部．"},{"start":491.513,"end":492.113,"text":"保安委員我不想來我給你看一個齁"},{"start":521.892,"end":522.632,"text":"法務委員目前還沒有 人事長怎麼辦"},{"start":552.298,"end":552.759,"text":"內政部 移民署 你們管的嘛"},{"start":564.653,"end":583.47,"text":"好 我們現在呢 只要有出過國的人都知道 很多國家 最早用的我去接觸的是新加坡幾乎它的出入境啊 都用很多的一個ATM 類似ATM那樣的機器在幫你服務現在我們的出境大廳 大家也可以到 你在旅客 在桃園機場要出境 要去簽印錢"},{"start":585.231,"end":602.119,"text":"機場的航空公司也用大量的這個機器我到日本去入境的時候也是用機器取代好那目前你們的內政部的移民署的署長說我們移民署的第4代的E-GATE自動通關建置的成效未來能不能讓非本國籍的旅客出入使用自動通關現在進入怎麼樣?不知道對不對?人事長怎麼辦?你們高唱落雲但是各機關的配合速度跟不上怎麼辦?往下看"},{"start":614.292,"end":633.273,"text":"好 那個蕭政署過去我在2022年 2020年4年前我曾經問過受刑人在監獄遭管理員凌虐致死 我要求蕭政署要杜絕監視器的死角周組長知道這個事情嗎知道那目前有說要求你們做智慧監獄 你們今天怎麼樣"},{"start":634.42,"end":635.28,"text":"現在科技很進步"},{"start":650.945,"end":668.108,"text":"這是在2020年COVID-19前前我們發明那個叫電子圍籬另外我們發明到生理手環受刑人有的慢性病有的有性血管疾病他不見得都能夠及時的借護送醫如果這些高風險的受刑人有配上生理手環你們會及時監測到生理狀況不會延誤病情你同意嗎"},{"start":668.869,"end":683.71,"text":"我同意那如果說一些盲區除了用監視器事後來檢查之外如果有射電子圍籬只要一進入盲區就會出現警號避免受刑人被匣帶進去修理有沒有可以做這個方法可以好 人事長看到沒有人事長"},{"start":685.373,"end":685.453,"text":"登山"},{"start":709.363,"end":719.431,"text":"防止射屏：請問這也是內政部的還有林保署來農業部你們知不知道目前的科技我們會去統計陸山的山友的人數農業部知道嗎不知道對不對我都知道因為我們經常民意代表要負責去受理"},{"start":729.062,"end":739.334,"text":"目前我們的配置大概在登山的路徑上會受感測器不管是山羌通過還是黑熊通過還是人類通過他會有技術的但是山友通常繞過"},{"start":740.936,"end":766.957,"text":"所以我要問一下現在我們看到一個新聞向陽山發生一個失蹤16年的山友目前我們很常看到的路跑路跑 你要參加路跑花200塊押金把那個晶片在你腳上你就可以計時這是一個RFID的無線射頻被動元件那麼這個元件很適合我們在山區裡面佈建可以知道山友如果進入了他有這個晶片我們可以知道他在什麼時間什麼地點通過哪個檢測點"},{"start":769.139,"end":789.985,"text":"未來發生事故可以縮小我們的搜尋範圍 農業部 同意嗎知道 知道嗎 內政部 因為你們管警政署也管陸山登進 內政部同意嗎同意 同意 好 所以人事長 我也聽你提過用5G的無人機結合AI辨識來強化三岸的搜救 你認為有沒有在進行了"},{"start":793.6,"end":814.7,"text":"我感覺應該還沒有來 速發部不好意思要請你們上來你們的速產署說5G無人機結合AI辨識強化三端救援你們有沒有要推動這樣的一個應用項目有這個計畫有這個計畫 什麼時候要讓我們看到成果我記得這個計畫應該是現在開始進行那應該明年會有一些初步明年會有初步成果 好"},{"start":815.501,"end":816.922,"text":"人事總處跟樹花部要召開不同領域的AI課程"},{"start":840.25,"end":861.517,"text":"各單位應對應相關課程內容．派業務人員參與兩位是不是都同意 承諾好 那另外我請嚴毅將各項數據導入AI提升前項的四位應用內容的速度效益安全性可行報告一個月提出後面的農業部 內政部是不是都可以承諾人事長要不要列入管考"},{"start":864.985,"end":891.771,"text":"我比較不方便去管考這一個部分那你們不管考那誰來要求他們做應用端應用端大概蘇哈布蘇哈布有你們來管考嗎應該不是警政署也不是你管考移民署也不是你管考矯正署也不是你管考我們的那個那個林保署也不是你管考那請問我們講的這些應用有說要做那誰來知道他做了沒有"},{"start":894.502,"end":895.224,"text":"鍾佳濱、趙偉楷各大"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:33:43 - 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所以這個部分我不知道說是不是昭緯是之前就已經有通知相關的部會機關今天都要來報告嗎來 那麼跟翁委員說明一下因為上週原定我們通常一般在星期三或星期四最遲星期四會確定下週議程一邊發開會通知但是因為上週四是因為國慶日沒有上班那在上週三的議程聯絡後在上週我就做了更動所以人總的報告提前到星期一"},{"start":95.111,"end":118.998,"text":"那這個過程當中我們也希望人總能夠將所有相關有AI導入的各機關名單提供所以因此我們在星期五的時候呢在很短的時間內又通知了相關的部會前來報告所以各機關的作業的準備時間啊大概只有星期五下班後到星期一的上班這段時間那提供的資料比較倉促可能造成委員在質詢應用上的不便也請多包涵"},{"start":119.86,"end":139.396,"text":"好 謝謝周偉德說明我們其實同樣的都是禮拜五指導就是這個議程那我必須講就是各部會機關因為看起來你們今天報告其實頁數非常少啦大概少的話是三四頁但理論上這些東西都是你們應該stand by這個例行性的都要準備好相關的資料"},{"start":141.273,"end":158.419,"text":"周末假日我都還在家裡面認真的讀報告可是今天看到另外還有十幾份的報告書我想我們委員不是神童我們沒有辦法一下子看這麼多報告書就知道說你們到底在做了些什麼"},{"start":159.439,"end":164.843,"text":"對 這也很浪費你們的時間 寫了報告書幾個委員沒有時間看所以我希望說是不是可以自此之後這個各機關至少都能夠在 如果說禮拜五才公告的議程的話那可能禮拜六禮拜天要提早交給委員而不是我們當場的時候才拿到像法務部 矯正署 農業部 經管會 環境部就是你們今天早上才送的報告啊"},{"start":181.633,"end":182.494,"text":"委員長 請切次長下一頁"},{"start":200.646,"end":204.209,"text":"我想我這次其實也看了就是經濟部還有人種數位速發部等所提出來的AI的相關的業務報告書那我核對了一下這幾份業務報告書裡面其實我發現還是有蠻多高度重疊的地方譬如說"},{"start":220.262,"end":227.787,"text":"對於AI人力的培養：人事總處有講書發部也有：對於提升智慧化的服務：人總這邊有講有相關的課程：書發部也說要做智慧化為民服務：經濟部也要做客服效率提升：提供數據分析最佳服務等等："},{"start":243.236,"end":260.634,"text":"對,那我還沒有看其他的這個業務單位的報告書我相信可能裡面的內容是大同小異的在這樣子高度重疊的情況之下我不知道就是政府部門就中央政府機關到底有沒有一個主責單位對於我們台灣未來的AI發展"},{"start":264.358,"end":274.902,"text":"不管是從提升人力的角度AI素養的角度發展相關的系統或是說要提供一些相關的服務有沒有一個組織機關目前組織機關是哪一個部會"},{"start":279.044,"end":292.871,"text":"這裡大概跟委員說明一下人事總處是負責公務人員AI的培訓所以我們從7月30號陸陸續續從部長次長還有機關三級機關首長那今天下午會針對12職等的司長處長來辦訓練再來我們會針對我們的訓練對象還有一個10座課程是針對科長是業務單位"},{"start":307.979,"end":313.384,"text":"蘇阿布的重點在資訊單位一樣就是我們有分兩類型的我現在看到其他機關幾乎似乎也是follow行政院所核定的AI計畫裡面的一些東西在做但是我必須說就是裡面高度的重疊在本席看來其實各部會現在所做的事情"},{"start":330.319,"end":330.359,"text":"主席"},{"start":357.762,"end":363.355,"text":"高階人才的AI共識營本席很好奇的是部會首長的AI共識營你們到底共識了些什麼你們討論了一些什麼嗎"},{"start":367.526,"end":388.671,"text":"主要的課程是在讓所有部會首長知道人工智慧在未來國家的發展競爭上面他的幫助是怎樣還有他會有哪些的基礎環境必須要建構事實上部會首長他知道以後會把這個訊息傳達給他所屬的大家一起動起來"},{"start":389.557,"end":398.363,"text":"了解所以代表現在這些部會首長根本還沒有AI的素養沒有AI sense對不對都已經當了部會首長這都是陷在弦上我們都要做的然後如果說這方面大家對於這個議題的認知還不夠還要重新來學習我告訴你台灣的AI發展一定會遠遠的落後於其他的國家好接下來下一頁那麼我要談的就是說是其實經濟部也"},{"start":417.355,"end":436.166,"text":"在今年也發布了一份一一二年全國電力資源供需報告書：裡面呢有講到就是未來我們AI的電力的需求一一年會比一一二年成長八倍我想請問這經濟部經濟部今天經濟部次長次長有來是不是不好意思司長那經濟部準備好了嗎相關電力發展或書發部對這方面有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":447.917,"end":449.578,"text":"本席告訴你肯定不夠 事發部呢"},{"start":463.484,"end":480.711,"text":"跟委員報告就是說電力的需求當然如果分散式的把這些AI分散在各部會那這一個的確是會造成非常大的影響那這也是為什麼剛剛我報告數位政府是他有一支計畫是建立政府共購的AI機房"},{"start":481.891,"end":505.612,"text":"我想其實最重要的我們要發展AI基礎建設一定要完善而且電力很明顯就是不能缺嘛沒有電的情況之下所有的系統資通訊系統是不能夠運作的所以我認為說與其我們講說發展AI其實不如說我們先把電力的這個環境先建置好這個才會更重要那接下來我想我就單獨請教這個人事長就好了"},{"start":509.555,"end":515.419,"text":"兩位可以先回座本席接下來要談的就是說我有看到人事總處在人事行政政策規劃執行發展的計畫裡面其實有談到未來還是會持續的做智慧創新人事服務計畫等等這些所謂的自通訊安全的計畫大概編了一億三千"},{"start":534.372,"end":535.914,"text":"本席發言委員"},{"start":552.523,"end":559.572,"text":"施求人、退休金試算、退休金年金改革等系統本席也肯定人事總處規劃資通訊系統"},{"start":566.081,"end":589.526,"text":"如果說從這個先談這個事求人的這個系統來講本席也這裡也做了一些統計我們從106年一直到113年看到這個事求人光是這個系統不斷的優化擴充本席不知道為什麼要每一年都要優化而且事實上累積起來的金額也相當的可觀"},{"start":591.524,"end":601.253,"text":"還有就是都是給同一家的業者那麼這個是一個問題那我們接下來再看第二個例子另外就是在考試分發"},{"start":604.261,"end":623.119,"text":"另外在考試分發的人事申報作業系統同樣的也是一樣都是透過優化擴充每年都是編很高的錢如果說我們講第一年是開發的話那第二年第三年之後理論上是維運可是為什麼每一年都是優化及擴充的系統還有下面"},{"start":624.844,"end":643.147,"text":"那麼在人事服務系統的部分也是一樣：靈群電腦長年都是拿這個人事總處的標案而且都是用擴充不是用優化擴充精進的專案然後呢這個這個申請的金額呢也都非常高這下一頁人力資源管理資訊系統同樣的也是一樣的情況這也是給靈群的下一頁"},{"start":653.192,"end":656.953,"text":"退休撫恤系統支通電腦公司全頂退休撫恤試算系統優化系統"},{"start":673.407,"end":691.626,"text":"那開發也是跟人事服務網有關的這些系統好下一頁本期要講就是說是你們自己其實都有說有關於像資通訊的服務的軟體開發有一個經費的估算原則請問人事長你們過去有按照這個估算原則在做嗎"},{"start":692.981,"end":694.042,"text":"我跟委員報告因為人事總處現在維運的很多的系統是全國大家共用"},{"start":713.274,"end":740.427,"text":"那這一年期間我們最少會有4次的使用者的一個meeting他會每一個人在使用之後他會覺得他有些功能是不夠滿足他的他希望再增加那很多人的需求我們會透過那個整合一年4次然後會有一個審查會把大家認為OK這個功能可以更新更新了以後我們再去做update因為"},{"start":741.247,"end":742.268,"text":"我必須說我從剛剛的標案裡面我看不出來那個是有包含維護費"},{"start":764.517,"end":766.199,"text":"如果說是擴充 你們也要把每一年擴充什麼本身希望你們可以做一個詳細的報告把你們 我剛剛列舉的那幾個系統到底他們擴充了一些什麼 優化了什麼我已經問過我們的一些資訊界的專家學者大家都覺得說這不太"},{"start":784.716,"end":790.161,"text":"可能每一年都在擴充每一年都在優化你們不是一開始標案設計都應該要設計好了嗎怎麼可能每年都花那麼多錢下一年然後接下來我要講的不管是在審計部還有我們立法院運轉中心其實都有講這是有關於維護費的計費方式應該要依照這個相關的經費估算原則去做"},{"start":808.078,"end":813.081,"text":"基本上要積極地檢討,那麼看起來我覺得人事總處基本上並沒有按照之前的估算原則去做,那麼本席希望你們可以把這個相關的報告書,然後提送一個月之內可以吧,提送一份給我,因為我覺得這很重要,這個人民的錢要花在刀口上,我們不能夠巧立名目,"},{"start":830.049,"end":830.109,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":852.631,"end":852.871,"text":"好 OK 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:18:34 - 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有請我們人事長還有我們數位部今天來的次長請蘇人事長跟薛次長委員長人事長 次長我今天早上我坐在那個地方仔細聆聽我從台北市當議員到屏東到台東我聽了你們今天講這個議題我感觸很深我先放給你一個影片我昨天去的給你看"},{"start":42.556,"end":43.617,"text":"臺鐵董事長斷掌傳郎劉兄平"},{"start":70.829,"end":99.045,"text":"傳來的告訴我 我都創好了創好了我告訴我 我們兩個說的所在不一樣這叫做什麼 你們說AIAI就是要精簡嘛人要看我們這麼簡單利用機器 利用科技減少人力的一個浪費讓民眾有更便利性工人員辦起事情來更順利然後讓老百姓沒有厭圓AI不那麼好"},{"start":100.64,"end":102.381,"text":"這就拿到社會本地我剛才有去我剛才去到現場我剛才是要看榮舜我看過榮舜阿台南匯鐵路在那裏沒有走來看要不要繳收這就行這就行你給AI也不好"},{"start":118.032,"end":136.696,"text":"但是我要先感謝啦 我要先感謝就是說那個人事長對於臺東這一次啊 整個國產署人力的一個不足應該要補30億的 齁那當然 人精膽 跟心碎跟體育有那個誘因 留住公務人員有那個咳嗽 不能辦事你以為我 台東遇到的跟他現在南島 中華遇到的他現在不是AI的問題啊現在是欠咳嗽的問題啊"},{"start":148.55,"end":164.881,"text":"所以我今天在聽就有對我來講很大的衝擊啦我不是說AI內閣不好我不是說整個政府把它數位化不好但是那個面向太廣啦政府的施政有太多的一個地方就這就要緊緊啦對吧 涉及到公共安全人要去嘛 勤災要去嘛你家住不夠了 地方很多為什麼會承包都會比較慢"},{"start":177.028,"end":178.448,"text":"但是這個喊了幾年我期待可以落實但是呢"},{"start":205.834,"end":224.289,"text":"政府的施政有太多的方面了要檢討的地方還是很多啦那我特別感謝的就是說你那個三年的限制解除掉以後啊就地方政府或者說我們各個部會裡面用人你說約聘的來 三年來就那個國安署你就知道來了三年那工夫是多好啊 你知道嗎你說三年了不要再請了 嘿!把你丟在地方政府水球裡 人有夠好人"},{"start":234.042,"end":241.057,"text":"所以你就造成很多施政上我們很多人才就沒有辦法繼續留用所以這次把它解除這個限制啊"},{"start":242.096,"end":268.351,"text":"表示非常大的贊同跟感謝啦 齁 也是定義改革問題你至少要先讓老百姓沒有怨言你政府施政才有辦法去便利嘛 更順暢嘛 可不是這樣說那所以呢 我們這一次除了補充人力以外 這一次我看賴總統去強調了這個整個那個科技數位島跟數位的新社會 著手那個AI的戰略的一個發展我相信那個目標也是一樣 但是我要請教的就是說"},{"start":269.741,"end":274.105,"text":"你像比如說一般國考進來除了你有特別的資訊專長以外你說期待公務人員找很多時間去上很多課或者說讓他們上網自己去學習啊我不知道說這個的誘因夠不夠在我們公務人員繁忙之外可以讓他去多加學習新的技能我不知道社長還是人事長你們有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":301.485,"end":325.895,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題啦 我想齁 某種的改動 我們的做法就是 呃 頂 呃 兩倍前齁 有委員在請教一個問題 是不是公布另外 我們有20點鐘的學習 有10點鐘的必修 那我們現在跟蘇阿波在討論 呃 就是從明年1月1號開始 我們在10個鐘頭的必修的 每一個人都要去修1或2個鐘頭"},{"start":327.156,"end":327.176,"text":"市長"},{"start":351.397,"end":374.446,"text":"人事長剛才這樣說 說你們大家都去上課 增加這些誘因幾個小時我問你們數位部 你們北部 中部 南部都有嘛 對不對東部沒有 中部沒有有沒有 中部沒有 東部也沒有是嘛 我要跟你說的就是這樣 人事長你說的好 全國"},{"start":376.955,"end":392.875,"text":"大家來上課學習我也是跟他說你東部你又欠你這個怎麼辦像你這個怎麼辦我們在說我們常常在說整個政府裡面要把數位政府裡面大家都會拿新加坡來當一個標竿"},{"start":395.011,"end":395.251,"text":"主席"},{"start":417.497,"end":435.841,"text":"市長,請問一下,第一個大部分的課程是線上的那東部呢,我們也有一些課程是到各地去開專班那如果有需要的話,我們也可以到東部去開專班所以你第一個想到的是,我從你們的配置裡面,你第一個想到的就是東部不需要阿?阿不然他還沒的?"},{"start":439.864,"end":455.11,"text":"不要啦 別這樣啦 這樣也用批評啦你再唱 國民黨就來教啊 我跟你講你再唱 政府施政真的不能這樣因為我現在都要認兩頁 我對政客喔 如果有那些女政客都要給我選中你知道嗎但是總是要為那個地方來做一個發聲 你要均衡嘛 你要均衡嘛你公務人員的人力 其實數值都很高但是因為你中央一個決策這樣下去以後 人家覺得我們這裡是"},{"start":469.246,"end":483.753,"text":"法外之地這不對啊這不對我是覺得蘇衛部這個地方要檢討這樣的一個政策裡面不夠周延我們會回去處理今天啦今天要處理啦那其實喔我一直會覺得說"},{"start":487.014,"end":504.181,"text":"你若說西部有這樣的一個規劃其實你要去考量到東部公務人員他去上課他去學習這樣的一個便利性阿不然你覺得叫台東叫法輪的公務人員你找來台北你知不知道台東到台北一個字牆號要幾點鐘台東要差不多5點鐘至6點鐘4點40分鐘"},{"start":514.456,"end":539.798,"text":"但是呢 那個火車站不是在臺東縣政府這樣走出來就可以搭上火車啦也要單車一下 要買車票那到火車站 你們訓練的地方也不會設在臺北火車站嘛所以光那個車程往返都十幾個小時啦那你也要創造 你們不能一個政策出來都製造的都是其他地方的一個沒有不便利性啊我認為這樣就不對了啦"},{"start":542.04,"end":566.085,"text":"那我接下來 那個 次長請回阿 這個不能開玩笑好不好齁 次長我要請教你就是說 現在大家在講 阿不不不 那個人事長齁 人事長次長請回 就是說 這次 大家在講 體育署會升格這個問題你從你的嘴巴裡面 你都很不喜歡講升格 我就覺得很奇怪阿就是說 不管啦 不管你認為那到底是不是升格啦"},{"start":567.185,"end":568.086,"text":"人事總署對於體育部未來人力的規劃"},{"start":585.956,"end":607.535,"text":"我委員報告喔,不是給我們給一些而已,那是一個專心的部會,所以人力在編制上、在人力上,它是一個全新的思考不過有一件事情我們會先處理,本來體育署、學校體育教育的體育場館在做的那裡,那裡有一個組,那裡的組長、副組長那裡的人大概十幾個,會算過來"},{"start":610.678,"end":610.758,"text":"主席"},{"start":626.817,"end":633.501,"text":"我告訴你啊 你一百三十五 你說要給一個百五你要考慮到一個問題啦 原來體育署的業務 然後又要回到教育部人又再唱回去 這個不是加減乘除的問題啦"},{"start":658.683,"end":665.087,"text":"你在整個我們現在目前教育部那個本部原額是567人喔公務預算原額是1540喔對不對?1540還多多的以教育部本身目前的預算原額是489位阿不然你給我加"},{"start":678.939,"end":690.124,"text":"運動部成立,人差不多存多少?你說135,你再給他150,教育部還要拿一些回去,你每個月也存200多塊?教育部拿十幾個回去而已?對,拿十幾個回去而已。那你的預估,假設下個月運動部成立,假設,假設,你認為他緣合是多少?人手?人手我真的要再看... 少不得嘛,就簡單嘛,現在135嘛?對。135你說要再補100多嘛?"},{"start":718.748,"end":726.593,"text":"是 我的意思就是說那你原來隸屬在教育部的這些人他教育部又把你拿走嘛 你還是要扣掉嘛"},{"start":727.333,"end":753.296,"text":"你若要報一百個到時候你後裔的絕對不會一百個嘛你說十個嗎?你如果請假你也只剩九十而已啊對啊九十啊 剩下不敢我怎麼報後裔啊這樣你兩百多個人真的可以變成一個部?我 委員報告 第一個改端說真的啦我們一個新的部會給我們成立喔一群要到編制研核 假設三百個 不可能一群就三百個那差不多要兩天到三天"},{"start":754.457,"end":771.162,"text":"但是我今天重點我要結束啦 喔 抱歉就是說我們今天在講說AI政府啦 齁 要把它給數位化啦其實談到的都是在講人事 其實另外一涵是人事上的一個精簡啦但是你有多少部會 是缺人欸海巡你欠人 警察你欠人 機站要勘察你要欠人齁 你說我要去匯勘的 我要去套土的 我這些都要人工來的"},{"start":784.838,"end":787.099,"text":"我這人工不是人工智慧我都認為這個很衝突的概念所以你們要考慮清楚啦不是這樣在大家辦公室講講會講後來AI內閣我們全部以後都導入AI我們各組織我們來授聲"},{"start":807.216,"end":813.161,"text":"另外一邊就 底下就跟你喊 我沒人 我沒人 我欠人 我工作做不出來 老百姓在那邊幹架要面面具具到 不要開玩笑先抹而後凍 要做一個決策出來之後 絕對不能去因為一個決策 到最後 你要的 大家會認為說 啊你不是說 政府不是要去新加坡結果咧 咳 擠開了之後 人 不欠 尤其是身體人 又欠"},{"start":835.154,"end":838.723,"text":"那個民間的反撲特別要小心好不好謝謝委員謝謝莊委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:04:24 - 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請人事長 請數位人事長委員早 人事長早 人事長我想今天就這個AI的一個效能的問題 我首先來請教人事長 就是我們人事總處就公務人員的AI智能的數位轉型你都有相關的規劃安排了 今天的業報也寫得很清楚但是我在意的是說 有關數位落差的問題 也就是說"},{"start":33.519,"end":44.51,"text":"你對於這些比較資深的公務人員﹐對於數位化的熟悉度﹐跟我們新進的公務人員﹐他們是不是會產生數位的落差?"},{"start":47.04,"end":64.8,"text":"這個現象一定是會的因為現在新進到公務機關服務已經是有2000年次之後的那這些都是屬於數位延伸所以一定會有不一樣的一個程度的差別對對對對於數位化的認識以及他的技能所以你會做培訓嗎你來培訓嗎"},{"start":68.183,"end":94.977,"text":"培訓就是事實上我們的主要任務就是所有公務人員的一個培訓那陳盧委員你所了解的吧要把所有的公務人員全部都招訓來開實體課有困難所以我們從9月1號開始我們就開了5門的人工智慧的課程那之前的這6年我們就開人工智慧相關的像RPA的相關人工智慧的一些課程我們陸陸續續都有進行"},{"start":96.538,"end":109.432,"text":"市長你有開這課程培訓課程我了解就是說但是你有沒有考慮到你開這些這個課程啊你有沒有做差異化的培訓全部招進來但是每個程度不一樣"},{"start":111.647,"end":126.78,"text":"我跟委員我跟委員差異化做這個適當的一個訓練差異化大概就是有些是培養種子的部分我們就是有實體課大概3天而且還要有一些考試要取得一個證照"},{"start":127.461,"end":144.651,"text":"那如果是一般通識型的話就是我們在我們的公務人力發展中心有一個數位學習課程讓公務人員他自己上去選他有興趣的課題因為這裡面有些是應用面有些是委員所關心的可能"},{"start":145.011,"end":145.351,"text":"所以在講"},{"start":161.901,"end":181.621,"text":"市長我的意思就是說其實我是建議你啦因為大概程度就真的都不一樣所以你在設計相關的培訓課程啊可能你要做一些差異化的一個課程的設計就你剛才講的啊有些人可能他的這個什麼應該講什麼障礙啊會有這樣的一個學習的一個能力的不一樣"},{"start":183.158,"end":201.809,"text":"對他的了解不一樣即便你有通識的一個教育但是當你進入到這個要更深入的課程AI人工智慧課程的一個培訓的時候如果你還是用一樣的課程去做訓練的話會不會造成人家學習上的一個障礙"},{"start":203.223,"end":224.038,"text":"我跟委員報告大概有兩個角度第一個角度是我們課程有一些是屬於出街還有進街還有高街然後出街的課程是否一般公務人員他應該要來學習的然後這裡面有一個很重要我們就是在設計課程設計課程設計很重要"},{"start":226.94,"end":227.06,"text":"主席"},{"start":242.602,"end":244.863,"text":"我們是否有考量到各機關內部你是否已經具備有相當到位的數位軟體設備"},{"start":270.27,"end":278.251,"text":"他要來訓練那你是不是有他們機關內部他們各種軟硬體的設備是否有到位可以來搭配執行"},{"start":280.02,"end":301.585,"text":"我跟委員報告一下那個假如是在人工智慧方面因為目前市面上可以使用的比如像深層式人工智慧因為有一般的人工智慧還有深層式的那深層式的現在Google Gemini還有其他的CHAP GPT它有很多的人工智慧我想"},{"start":302.525,"end":325.001,"text":"這一個就是速發部他會訂一個使用的概賴供各個機關去參考那基本上他需要的一個軟體這裡面會有硬體上面需求還有軟體上面需求那一個假如是在公有營的部分我想每一個機關他使用上面的loading會比較輕因為委員也很清楚"},{"start":325.761,"end":354.801,"text":"這些人工智慧尤其生成式的它需要耗用很多的運算資源那以每一個部會內部的現在的resource來講的話坦白講會有不夠那所以樹花部他們也有在規劃或者經濟部他們也有在規劃譬如去買灰打的一些金幣大家講經營的概念你解釋那麼多我聽起來就說確實我們到目前為止我們這些軟硬體的設備還沒有到位嘛"},{"start":355.401,"end":355.421,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":374.981,"end":403.604,"text":"報告委員我們在數位政府是有一支計畫就是建立政府機關共用的AI平台那在這個平台裡面他就是會用一個API去串接那我們盡量去取得目前市面上各式各樣的各式各樣的大型語言模型那讓各機關在這個階段他他可以選擇他現在要用哪一個平台那目前建制的情況怎樣我們請"},{"start":404.904,"end":428.171,"text":"蘇政司補充包委員我們現在大概明年第一季可以開始使用明年第一季我想既然要做AI的各部門要做AI的一個智能效應的一個利用跟使用發揮我們的行政效率所以這部分軟硬體的設備你要盡速的把它建置完成所以你預期明年第一季"},{"start":429.051,"end":457.079,"text":"明年底還是明年初?明年初明年初就會把這些軟體設備建置到位嗎?那再請教我們有關於這個治安的問題我想我們經過未來數位轉型AI之後AI技術的迅速發展與廣泛應用優化我們政府的運作流程並加速政府運作的效能在帶來便利的同時會不會帶來風險?"},{"start":459.34,"end":472.777,"text":"當然,所以在那個國科會公布的人工智慧基本法裡面速發部就必須對這些AI模型去做評測那評測裡面最重要非常重要的一個項目就是治安的風險是"},{"start":474.259,"end":501.572,"text":"那目前為止我們對於治安的防護呢有沒有落實到位嚴格把關目前蘇發部已經成立的AI評測中心在治安院已經成立了AI評測中心那也對目前市面上的一些語言模型已經做了一些評測好那我再請教齁這個可能跟人事長沒有有關啦齁人事長學工現在我們未來在系統的運作齁指派作業人員的政策方面我們是既用具有"},{"start":502.933,"end":519.312,"text":"專業的我們現在這個就是在我們各機關用的這些公務人員作為這些治安人員的一個的就是安排他來做這個治安的一個管理還是說我們是要編列預算外包給廠商"},{"start":522.223,"end":540.175,"text":"這個大概分兩個部分啦第一個就是資安人員上一年年底速發部有提缺到考選部所以今年有入企的9位是屬於資安類科的不過這9位坦白講是不夠用的那其他的會從現有的資訊人員"},{"start":544.899,"end":547.301,"text":"蘇發部治安署有安排訓練課程,讓他們取得一些證照。"},{"start":558.01,"end":573.215,"text":"這是混合的那外包它是怎麼樣是在進入注點來這個它會有買服務的也有注點的會有不同樣態的這種搭配跟民間企業的搭配的方式"},{"start":574.456,"end":595.552,"text":"市長還有那個次長我總結來問了就是說你們是否能夠保證說在治安層面上一定能夠落實嚴格把關杜絕我們的這個資訊不會淪落為犯罪集團的這個作案工具可以做出保證"},{"start":598.222,"end":598.403,"text":"主席"},{"start":613.214,"end":637.873,"text":"不會把我們相關的資訊安全去洩漏出去嗎?你要嚴格把關啊,你能夠保證嗎?外包人員會用合約規範,然後會用,比如說那因為我們目前的法規只能對公務機關的人員跟跟這個行政機,跟這個行政法人的所以這個我剛才才會問你嘛如果你要外包,你要如何的落實說我們的這些資料不會外洩嗎?"},{"start":640.435,"end":643.878,"text":"這個你要嚴格把關啦我想時間的關係我再問最後一個問題啦就是說人事總處你在3個會期我詢詢詢問人事長就是說我們對於這個資安長的一個聘用或是各機關資安長他的一個資格"},{"start":663.334,"end":670.258,"text":"你跟我講說你跟數位發展部有合作辦理資安長的共事營這共事營辦了幾期"},{"start":672.47,"end":698.275,"text":"這個我們一年辦兩次一年辦兩次每一次有兩期每一次有兩場大概幾個人每次都是大概兩三百人兩三百人所以各部會的所謂的各部會還有地方機關的資安長資安長都會來那這些資安長的資格我想我有問過人事長這個資安長到底是由我們各機關的什麼主管來擔任資安長一般是副首長"},{"start":699.403,"end":719.45,"text":"副首長,副首長對資安他了解嗎?這個業務他了解嗎?跟委員報告,就是因為考慮第一個資安長未必需要所有的資安的細節但是他必須對於法尊以及制度要有了解所以他不需要具有資安相關的一個專業背景"},{"start":720.51,"end":743.126,"text":"他需要的背景跟資安人員的背景不一樣所以這是我們在共識營裡面給他上的課最主要就是針對他站在資安其實我是陳剛才審發會委員講的AI長的問題所以說如果你沒有把這個資安長把他的資格去做一個很明確的一個聘用的一個限制的話很可能就是外行領導內行"},{"start":745.072,"end":760.946,"text":"不懂治安也可以來當治安長如何領導統一我們最重要的是治安的法尊所以在治安 治安長共事其實治安不是只有法尊的問題如果這樣子的話任何學法的我跟莊惠雄都可以去擔任了"},{"start":762.347,"end":783.239,"text":"所以你要對這個資訊安全要有相當的理解了解有專業的背景所以這部分我是希望你們要做改進做改善資安長的未來的不是資安長的聘任就是我們資安長是不是什麼副所長來擔任那這個副所長是不是有資安的專業背景這你們要去考慮"},{"start":784.824,"end":784.964,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:51:02 - 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點閱啊"},{"start":282.344,"end":293.511,"text":"所以部長 次長為什麼要拿這個問題問你總知道了吧你知道這個112年度所謂的強化智慧政府數位發展計畫編列多少錢嗎我告訴你啦4149萬啦"},{"start":299.144,"end":321.101,"text":"然後可是你現在照你過去的這個績效用全國規模的預算推出的這個智能小幫手服務人士連一個里我們大概去隨便一個里的人數都比你多那這樣子的話我覺得你的智能小幫手先提升一下我們書發部本身的智能一下好嗎4000多萬先去改善書發部的智能"},{"start":323.124,"end":332.553,"text":"這是為什麼今天我要跟你講說我們當然支持政府來去打造台灣但現在總統說的阿要把台灣打造成AI智慧之島阿"},{"start":334.349,"end":355.712,"text":"可是如果說你過去蘇發布的績效是這個樣子的話那說真的我怎麼對你未來的績效有信心呢打造AI之島當然啦國科會有責任啦對不對我看我們人事總處也在努力要把政府的那個系統怎麼樣去AI化可是蘇發布是重中之重沒錯吧"},{"start":357.96,"end":361.844,"text":"社長我跟你講你講的都要藉口啦4000多個點擊次兩年齁真的是有夠難看的我直接講啦"},{"start":383.339,"end":411.097,"text":"那你等於是一個你花了四千多萬欸一個點擊次是一萬元的成本欸服務一個民眾上去點一次一萬塊欸不是這個意思那你跟我講那個現在也不實用因為現在有新的技術出來打掉了要重練了那我問你過去你就你一個點擊次要一萬塊啊我說真的我未來怎麼對你有信心呢我想書發部的揮霍預算早就惡名昭彰了也不是這件事啦"},{"start":412.843,"end":439.112,"text":"2022年成立嘛大家都希望書發部能夠讓台灣更智慧化數位化推動AI打擊詐騙齁期待很高啦對不對當年嘛對不對可是立法院給了很多的預算事實上你也知道書發部大概是民眾齁最不滿意的部會之一啦為什麼你光像打詐慘不能賭然後很多的東西你知道王世堅委員怎麼形容你們嗎還記得嗎市長還記得嗎"},{"start":442.957,"end":462.068,"text":"我最近記憶力不太好不太好我幫你提醒一下飯桶啊你們是飯桶嗎王世堅委員說你們是飯桶啊我們尊重委員的意見我告訴你不是尊重你們拿出點績效跟行動力證明速發部不是飯桶嘛可以嗎"},{"start":463.547,"end":492.342,"text":"我們會努力 謝謝努力啦 證明不是飯桶 是非常低階的努力啦那我再舉個例子 講你揮霍蘇發部今年出國預算幾個 編列多少預算今年應該是 32個啦預算是3133萬啦 所以有人常講蘇發部叫出國部啦國際交流重要 但是我要跟市長說我就先不講別的部門 最重要的國際交流部門應該是哪個部門"},{"start":493.803,"end":520.774,"text":"政府裡面?外交部當然是外交部啊外交部今年編了也只有14個出國計畫然後編列2908萬書發部不是不能出國考察交流啦可是你們的計畫是外交部的兩倍然後你們的AI服務人士像我剛剛講的Lililala本業都沒做好一天到晚想出國這難怪人家覺得不服難怪王世堅要罵你們是飯桶嘛"},{"start":521.394,"end":528.43,"text":"所以這是你們自己本務要先做好那我要問一下人事長請問國人薪資中位數是多少"},{"start":530.402,"end":556.809,"text":"國人的薪資中位數大概六七十萬之間我看到數字是111年是薪資中位數是51.8萬平均月薪4.3萬那是我的看當然你的數字也許有更不一樣的數字你再告訴我我再提供給委員那我想請問一下人事長你知道蘇發布全體職員平均的月薪是多少嗎比4.3萬高還是低高多少你知道嗎"},{"start":557.549,"end":585.53,"text":"我肯定知道他一定會比較高啊不然他找不到人對對對好比較高我也認同比較高一點我告訴你啊速發部114年編列預算250百位法定編制員和23位約聘僱編列薪水獎金加給加班費加起來月薪是10.2萬一年是122萬那是國人薪資中位數的2.4倍那你知道比起其他部會高還是低"},{"start":587.063,"end":587.083,"text":"請問次長"},{"start":619.162,"end":625.467,"text":"我要告訴你的是基本上你如果拿到的比較好的薪水績效就要怎麼樣"},{"start":627.188,"end":633.112,"text":"中位數有中位數 平均值有平均值的意義啊我要講的是 你拿的薪水比一般的民眾高沒錯吧 你總不能跟他講不是吧"},{"start":649.083,"end":669.197,"text":"平均值你也比較高啦 你還在跟我扯 沈仁市長 速發部現在拿月薪10萬平均值我比一般民眾高有沒有 你跟我講按照我最近看的資料是比一般外面的高對啊 那你還在跟我扯什麼不要在那邊凹來凹去找藉口 人事長都已經打臉你了 以上 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-4","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:39:42 - 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主委欸副主委來"},{"start":325.017,"end":351.432,"text":"政府應也就是說在基本法裡面這個18條裡面有13條都是政府應幹嘛政府應該幹嘛政府應該幹嘛總共13條都是規範政府的啦那這個有這麼多政府應應做的事情這個我就要請問人事長這個我們最核心的角色我們這裡人工智慧法裡面這麼多政府應作為的事項我們的人力足夠嗎現有的人力"},{"start":366.139,"end":379.229,"text":"好好沒有關係這個這個人事長未來這個基本法通過之後政府應該作為的事情有這麼多了以現有的人力來講我認為這個人力一定的調整是勢在必行"},{"start":381.319,"end":393.147,"text":"不管是公務人員的緣額也好不管是約聘僱人員也好你未來政府有這麼多政府應作為的事項我們應該提早就我們的這個中央機關總緣額法應該要提早做這個檢討還有我們有關這個約聘僱人員我們本會"},{"start":405.655,"end":412.441,"text":"本委員會在這個今年5月的時候有提出一個臨時提案請我們人總提出有關這個有關AI的這個約聘僱人員人力使用檢討結果我看了你們檢討的書面報告基本上是沒有檢討只是把現狀列出來而已沒有檢討未來的做法"},{"start":425.171,"end":436.456,"text":"所以這部分請我因為時間關係我請請這個人事長我們這個人事緣和調整在這個基本法架構之下絕對是勢在必行的所以請我們人總提早因應好不好謝謝謝謝委員那接下來另外一個比較比較這個我個人認為是不是應該政府應該考慮的這個我不曉得是國科會的職權還是人總的職權這是有關這個美國"},{"start":452.506,"end":463.342,"text":"美國在這個今年的這個3月28號由這個賀錦麗副總統他提出了而且已經開始實施就是每個政府機關都必須設置AI長"},{"start":465.373,"end":489.006,"text":"人工智慧長就是這個Chief AI Officer這是CAIO他們現在也已經開始美國的這個包括他們的國防部包括他們的網路安全局都已經開始都已經設置了這個AI長而且他們是要求未來每一個機關都必須設置AI長"},{"start":491.076,"end":516.639,"text":"這個部分我們有沒有考慮是不是國科會先講我們在基本法架構裡面有沒有這個部分報告委員基本法應該沒有規範到這個沒有規範到這個部分所以要請人事總長這個要考量如果要考量這個我再看到這個我們國科會的基本法裡面這個列在如果要設這個AI長列在哪裡"},{"start":517.762,"end":524.148,"text":"第一個這是我們現在基本法草案第12條政府應建立AI應用負責機制阿這個主管機關應該就是人種啦報告委員那是速發部啦應用的負責機制是速發部嗎"},{"start":536.649,"end":549.259,"text":"應用整個應用在政府機關的應用政策的規劃推動是在沈發部那人總扮演的角色是公務人員人工智慧的培訓在公務人員這一個區塊我剛提的這個美國所設置的這個人工智慧長AI長"},{"start":558.152,"end":573.251,"text":"我們有沒有考慮因為現在事實上我們資安我們在各個政府機關現在都有設置資安長這個是已經各個政府機關都有設置我想AI長的部分是因為那個人工智慧基本法裡面現在沒有規定現在沒有規定對但是"},{"start":573.772,"end":597.918,"text":"但是按照剛剛這樣大家討論的結果有關政府建立AI應用負責機制應該是訴發部來規劃就是說我們在修法的過程中不斷的在討論是要分級還是分類那因為歐盟是分級美國是分類那分類的基礎就是說不同的政府機關這個我理解啦我是請我們訴發部"},{"start":601.024,"end":621.349,"text":"能夠在考慮這個未來這個AI的這個使用上面在評估確認AI應用於哪些用途他對影響這個國民的安全跟權利這個部分設置在各機關設置AI長我個人認為是有必要的他不一定是常設的但是他可以像資安長一樣他是一個專責負責的人好不好我們請蘇發部來研議那蘇發部既然上來我就順便問蘇發部一個問題"},{"start":629.531,"end":645.183,"text":"我看到你們在今年9月30號這個我們人事長跟我們這個國科會請回了最後就是再請問蘇法部我在9月30號看到你們表示齁你們預計在12月釋出政府機關AI應用指引對不對對"},{"start":646.804,"end":661.84,"text":"那我要請問就是說你們要釋出將來12月預計要釋出的這個政府機關AI使用指引應用指引跟現行的行政院及所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引有什麼不一樣"},{"start":662.774,"end":681.711,"text":"跟委員報告他是一個上位跟上位的指導概念還是一個補充的概念還是一個取而代之的概念用這個新的公佈的指引來取代舊的指引是什麼樣的就AI這件事情當初內閣是決定說指引先行"},{"start":682.392,"end":704.509,"text":"那指引先行後面再立法那指引先行就是說國科會他先訂了一個指引但是因為這個指引沒辦法包含各部會不同的使用情境比如說也就是說我這樣理解你的意思是說現在現行的已經公佈在實施的行政院及所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引"},{"start":705.917,"end":732.209,"text":"這個部分還不夠所以你們速發部要所要在12月要提出的政府機關AI應用指引是補充性的嗎行政院提的這個指引是管制類的然後我們提的是應用類那這個應用類必須有各部會的應用指引先出來以後我們再去取也就是並行的就對了對那目前事實上我看到相當多的部會都已經都已經有訂定指引了但還沒有全部了"},{"start":732.649,"end":749.758,"text":"對,因為這個是一個有button 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沒問題因為你上次講喔說用了這個系統時間可以節省40%到50%"},{"start":104.139,"end":126.061,"text":"那我回去就很有興趣嘛因為我們在訂任何的KPI的時候那你要直接具體的講時間縮短40到50那你要有個衡量的基準嘛不是空口說白話嘛那這個人事法規生程式的AI查詢系統一天一天啊它的capacity可以查詢幾折"},{"start":128.728,"end":134.557,"text":"因為現在是牽涉到我們跟他注用Token的費用我們一天大概300個Token"},{"start":136.502,"end":164.692,"text":"那每一天300個Token都有用完是不是?目前大概是220左右220到250之間那等於是300還沒有用盡嗎?還沒有用盡你把這個系統開始以後到今天為止每一天使用Token的次數會後提供資料給我好嗎?因為我喜歡看白紙黑字的東西我喜歡看數字說話我不喜歡空口說白話"},{"start":166.132,"end":190.689,"text":"那因為你們沒有開放給一般人使用就即使是我都沒有辦法去檢證這個AI查詢系統是不是像你們所說的有這麼好用有這麼正確所以我就去我們立法院人事處請教了我請教了我們的立法院人事處的主任人事長你知不知道我們立法院的人事處有沒有在用這個系統"},{"start":199.674,"end":205.342,"text":"你明明就有開放給立法院你還發函給立法院要立法院派人去做教育訓練"},{"start":208.41,"end":225.556,"text":"人事長拜託你在國會詢答的時候你不知道可以說不知道啦但不要信口開河啊你們自己都發寒了叫立法院的人事處派員去參加教育訓練阿你如果沒有開放給他們他們去參加教育訓練是參加好玩的喔"},{"start":227.406,"end":250.9,"text":"我這裡要跟委員報告一件事情發文給立法院的應該是前續部發文轉我們沒有直接邀他所以立法院的人人事處的人能不能用就是可以用對嘛那你怎麼會說沒有開放給他們用因為我們沒有直接發文給他胡扯來公務員可不可以擔任有限公司的股東"},{"start":257.951,"end":283.436,"text":"不能不能嗎對持股有限制嗎持股不能超過10%你確定嗎這個再確認一下好我直接跟你講啦因為我自己不能用嘛我只能去拜託第一個我請教我們立法院人事處的人他們有沒有在用他們跟我說他們通通都沒有在用"},{"start":285.031,"end":306.957,"text":"他們通通都沒有在用那個人事長你要聽我講話還是要聽你旁邊那位小姐講話還是你不要回答的直接請他上來回答我自己回答我請立法院人事處的人用因為我不能用嘛"},{"start":308.052,"end":329.998,"text":"那你們控管只有人事處的人可以用所以我就請他們用啊那我就請他們幫我打一個問題上去啊公務員可不可以擔任有限公司的股東啊他同時勾了法規跟函式啊出來的答案的結果如同我上面PVT上面所示啊來人事長這個AI查詢系統提供的答案正不正確"},{"start":335.736,"end":352.066,"text":"這個本來是不能超過10%現在已經有修正法律已經修正了所以這個提供的答案並不正確嗎是吧這個是配合服務法的修正這一個是舊規定對啊服務法什麼時候修正的"},{"start":356.823,"end":379.048,"text":"我直接跟你講不要浪費時間啊2022年6月22你這個系統什麼時候建置的去年建置的嘛那你去年建置今年上線結果2022年修法都還沒有update要再多加油啦再多加油啦來請那個矯正署的署長來矯正署署長請"},{"start":389.744,"end":408.927,"text":"委員好 署長好我先之前巴德外易間我們的新建統包工程案是24億這個巴德外易間新建統包工程案本來什麼時候要完成"},{"start":410.237,"end":426.296,"text":"報告委員我們大概預定是今年的年底按照契約的規範什麼時候要完成他已經比較遲遠一段時間了不好意思請你針對問題回答按照契約的規範他什麼時候要完成"},{"start":428.553,"end":456.686,"text":"111年那2022年要完成嘛現在已經2024年了嘛是 今年年底我們爭取能夠順利脫了這麼久的理由是什麼因為他 廠商之間有經營權的爭議廠商之間經營權的爭議跟政府有關係嗎因為他沒有錢給他的分包那有時候分包不願意出工受到影響我的意思是啦"},{"start":457.833,"end":467.496,"text":"他們既然承包了政府的標案他們就要按契約履行嘛這是基本的觀念沒有錯吧是沒有按契約履行我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":469.724,"end":470.024,"text":"我跟署長交換意見"},{"start":490.629,"end":510.73,"text":"要不要終止契約或採取其他契約上面主張權利什麼樣的方式我絕對尊重行政機關的判斷但問題是什麼但問題是他們按照契約該履行哪些項目就要履行哪些項目因為我之前接到檢舉我就覺得很奇怪他檢舉的內容是說"},{"start":513.291,"end":538.669,"text":"巴德外一間我們在監獄的出入口是不是有一個三道門的管制?是有這個三道門的管制最重要的目的跟機能是什麼?介入安全管控出入人員他同一個時間可以同時開啟嗎?不行那我上次我夏天的時候我花時間去看就看"},{"start":541.036,"end":561.154,"text":"這個三道門的管制根本沒有辦法正常運作我是在今年夏天的時候去看的到目前為止這個缺失改善了嗎現在目前是改善當中但是還沒完成改善多久了"},{"start":565.044,"end":589.086,"text":"我跟署長交換概念時間我全部都列出來了嘛他本來2022年3月就要完成結果拖到2023年的3月現在是2024年的10月等於是長達一年多的時間當中這三道門的管制沒有發揮他應有的功能講形同虛設話可能太重了啦"},{"start":590.137,"end":607.959,"text":"但是署長作為矯正署的大家長應該知道那三道門的管制在整個監所、戒護上面、安全上面它扮演的核心功能嗎?是那現在拖了一年多到現在10月這麼基本的功能還沒有辦法發揮署長你覺得還需要多久的時間?"},{"start":610.522,"end":638.795,"text":"我們會盡快來督導所屬機關依法令來辦理有必要我們會依企業來計劃相關的法則從去年3月到現在10月你覺得有符合你剛剛所講的請他們盡快嗎盡快已經盡快超過一年半了我跟署長交換一下概念這不是開玩笑的事情"},{"start":640.907,"end":659.217,"text":"報告委員我們機關絕對會積極來跟廠商要求辦理但是有一些部分是我們機關他沒辦法去掌控的因素請委員可以諒解這個當然機關自己沒有辦法修才會找廠商嘛現在我只有一個問題啊"},{"start":661.472,"end":680.223,"text":"這個沒有辦法正常發揮的功能在介護上面啊形成了重大的漏洞拖延了一年多大概還要拖延多久我其實只有這個問題而已因為我們總不可能說政府機關廠商事情沒有做到我們一而再再而三的讓他演嘛"},{"start":681.883,"end":709.301,"text":"是演到無窮無盡嘛是是現在最少我整理出來的日期應該沒有錯吧是拖延了一年多嘛是那你還要給他拖延多久報告委員我們會盡力來在年底前來辦理然後我們目前因為還沒完成驗收所以目前是先以人力輔助剩下一些人力來辦理年底前我們盡力來完成"},{"start":710.441,"end":736.429,"text":"那個同仁都很辛苦啦這個我了解啦廠商該做的事情沒有做結果竟然同仁是人力輔助那我就只有一個問題啦花納稅人的錢搞了一個這麼大的工程這個核心的部分拖了一年多都沒有辦法完成那到底還要再讓那個廠商拖多久時間的關係啦署長可以去巴德外醫監因為我現場去線看過"},{"start":738.47,"end":766.363,"text":"我也跟他們交換過意見我的立場很簡單你們就按照契約該怎麼主張就怎麼主張不要放水那第二個更重要的事情是安全介護上面這麼大的漏洞這麼嚴重的事情廠商如果如果沒有能力處理的話就按照契約的規定找人來幫他把他處理完這樣可以嗎是的謝謝委員OK好謝謝"},{"start":768.363,"end":768.486,"text":"好 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:508.007,"text":"我們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整"},{"start":510.356,"end":534.418,"text":"是這樣嗎?對那未來：而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?"},{"start":535.526,"end":555.336,"text":"跟委員報告 這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數"},{"start":561.26,"end":575.639,"text":"我知道啊,但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折,我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折,第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說"},{"start":576.32,"end":580.403,"text":"因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴重"},{"start":601.517,"end":626.536,"text":"對我我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折"},{"start":628.025,"end":653.786,"text":"但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳"},{"start":654.446,"end":670.602,"text":"所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣想,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多,然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少。"},{"start":671.684,"end":690.636,"text":"那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭"},{"start":692.907,"end":710.2,"text":"有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理"},{"start":713.392,"end":735.607,"text":"謝謝,我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在"},{"start":738.829,"end":753.536,"text":"你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值"},{"start":757.083,"end":764.666,"text":"因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊"},{"start":784.468,"end":785.709,"text":"2.5萬公噸3100萬公噸是佔多少?很低"},{"start":809.09,"end":813.452,"text":"2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做數字套還是"},{"start":831.984,"end":851.098,"text":"這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字"},{"start":857.694,"end":861.224,"text":"我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊"},{"start":862.93,"end":871.753,"text":"我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是"},{"start":890.538,"end":890.798,"text":"剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?"},{"start":911.872,"end":911.892,"text":"陳瑩委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:49:30 - 14:04:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155463","gazette":{"lineno":1559,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時49分）麻煩請彭部長，還有循環署賴署長。"],["主席：請彭部長、賴署長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。部長，在光輝10月我們國慶日這個普天同慶的日子，雲林有一家資收場有一位16年資歷的勞工摔進了機器裡面，他的上半身是被絞碎的，然後下半身是被打包起來的，死狀是非常的淒慘，有這樣子的一個工安事件，部長，這個新聞你有關注嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，我有看到。"],["陳委員瑩：好。為了協助推動循環經濟這個國家重大政策，勞動部在上個月13日，同意資源化產業無工廠登記證業者開放移工，目前環境部已經列管的資收場總共有六百多家，相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦！只是說當下本國勞工的工作環境已經差成這樣子，未來在引進外籍勞工的時候，本席是擔心恐怕會有更差的狀況。環境部花了滿多的經費在辦展覽，但是對於這些，特別是剛剛也提到這些資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題，關心的比例是非常失衡的。因為環境部大概督察的對象大部分都是大廠，還有模範廠，而接下來環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商做淨零碳排還有綠色成長，所以本席是要求部長，針對這些資收業者及處理業者挹注資源來協助，還有你要協助這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換，以及透過環境安全、衛生以及勞動條件的提升，來建構完善的循環經濟的政策目標。部長，我以上的建議你能不能採納？可以做到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手，所以淨零裡面，我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金，都把循環經濟這種資源循環、回收的把它放進去。這個細節，關於這個案例，是不是請署長來做一個回復？"],["陳委員瑩：你簡短時間，因為我後面還有很多問題。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是。在消防跟職安部分，是我們現在在資源回收我們有在推動的，包括跟消防署一起來進行輔導，另外對於加強回收處理業，我們也辦一些講習還有訓練。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想就以這個案例作為一個警惕啦！賴署長請回座。接下來我另外再請氣候變遷署的蔡署長。","目前環境部已經針對碳費徵收的三項子法制定完成，表示碳排放減少的方向已經逐漸的在明朗化、比較明確了，也有專屬的網頁說明，這是一件好事啦！只是說我看這個網頁，一看就是看到這個「施師開講」，部長，你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫「施師開講」？「施師」、「獅師」有兩種？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們施政次是一個有名的國際貿易法的專家、碳權的專家啦！因為我們環境部公關費不多，所以就特別請他「免錢」的來幫忙做這樣的宣導。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我也替大家謝謝你，只是如果今天換人，他沒有在這個位置做這個工作，要換人開講的時候要叫什麼？彭師嗎？還是……"],["彭部長啓明：這是一個短期的啦！關於碳費的，不會是長期。"],["陳委員瑩：OK，OK，好，謝謝。我們的施師可以先回座，只是提一下這樣子。在今天的專案報告前的「施師開講」已經有講，就是收費的281家有500間工廠左右，排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量，占全國排放總量的54%，是不是表示我們臺灣1年總碳排換算下來大概是287百萬公噸，是這樣沒錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：好，接下來我要請教部長，因為目前我們好像只是關注碳費要如何徵收，所以在各個產業，似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司，可是歐盟跟英國，它也會在2026年還有2027年透過CBAM的制度來徵收碳稅，環境部有沒有評估過還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊，這樣的狀況應該要如何因應？畢竟整個來說這個時間是非常有限的，特別是排放量不足2.5萬噸製造業的廠商，在確定臺灣政府不會徵收的前提之下，未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費，有沒有這樣的可能？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我們的2.5未來會往下調，這是確定的，兩年調整一次；第二個，因為減碳是國際上……碳定價是國際的趨勢啦，基本上，如果未來任何的企業只要想外銷的話，都有必須要被課到碳費、碳稅的可能性存在，其實這個都必須要做的啦！"],["陳委員瑩：所以就比較不會有我剛剛擔心的那些問題？"],["彭部長啓明：對，其實要逐步的，就是如果這個企業是內銷型的，當然影響比較小；如果它要出口到國際上的，當然就有一定的壓力，所以要提早布局，就是這個由來。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我另外要提一個問題，就是你們環境部用詞的問題，在你們的「施師開講」有講到114年開徵，但是實際上我們都知道，譬如說我們114年申報，真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用，這樣沒有錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：那到底什麼時候開始實行？在你們的報告第一段說，中國已經開始實施碳費徵收，我要請教就是他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了？雖然兩岸現況不是統一的，但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一，這樣才不會造成國內業者的困擾。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實中國是用碳交易的制度針對電力業，首先是電力業，它也逐步的在跨，他們很早就開始在試點，大概在十多年前就開始進行了。"],["陳委員瑩：所以他們算是已經繳費了？"],["彭部長啓明：已經用碳交易，就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度。"],["陳委員瑩：OK。再來，我另外要請教的是一個技術問題，就是收費公式，我們花了一點時間研究這個部分，收費公式實際上涉及層面是非常專業，而你們高碳洩漏的行業定義是要有碳排減量計畫的核定，就可以有0.2的調整數值，是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位就沒有0.2的調整，是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，而且你這個0.2，你還有二期、三期，0.4、0.6嘛，所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整，看起來是折扣越來越少，本席的質疑是這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎？還是你們這樣規劃，是有什麼特別的考量跟意義？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業，我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家，就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它排放強度高的這些產業，譬如說我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵、水泥業，因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間，所以我們有這樣一個轉型，調整一個0.2的係數。"],["陳委員瑩：我知道啊，但是你的二期、三期是變0.4、0.6，意思就是一期打兩折；第二期打四折；第三期打六折，你折扣是越來越少……"],["彭部長啓明：越來越少，對。"],["陳委員瑩：當然我自己的思考，會不會是因為你們預期它母數之後是減少，所以才折扣越來越少，因此它不會好像繳的費用越來越高嘛，我是替你們這樣解釋，這樣設想，但是我不是很確定啦！是這樣子嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員說明一下，因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業，它免費的核配也會越來越少，越來越嚴。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我理解，我理解，但是同樣對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛！你們的給我的回復，只是因為國際這樣子訂，所以我就這樣訂，但是通常我們一般的邏輯如果要達到鼓勵的效果，我們說你先做這樣，我跟你打八折；之後你再做更好，我跟打你六折；你再做到很完美，我跟你打兩折。但只是國際這樣子我們就這樣子，你可不可以解釋給我聽，國際這樣子計算是為什麼？"],["蔡署長玲儀：就是這些產業他們一定要減碳，只是一開始的時候，我們希望它可以有比較多的資金用在它自己的減碳，但是未來它能夠受到免費的部分就會越來越少，所以它要趕快開始來做減碳。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這跟我的設想，希望母數到時候是降低的……"],["彭部長啓明：我們沒有這樣想，我們是覺得，先給它一個比較大的誘因以減得更多，然後減得更多完了之後，就慢慢地減少。"],["陳委員瑩：那你也可以維持啊！就是一直都打這樣的折扣，我只是拋出來，因為你們講得很沒有說服力，你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣，我們其實也可以有一些創舉，如果它對產業的減碳是好的，你看我們的施師一直在點頭，我看到了啊！所以下回「施師開講」或許可以針對這個部分來講一下，好不好？因為不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定要怎麼樣，如果我們有更好的，我們也可以走在國際的尖端，施師，我這樣講有沒有道理？謝謝。其實我也可以做一下陳師，好不好？","我跟你講，我唸音樂系的，要看懂這個，真的花了我很多時間，好嗎？再來，非高碳洩漏風險行業，也就是2.5萬公噸的調整，關於未來這2.5萬，剛剛前面是不是有講到可能也是會調整？"],["彭部長啓明：慢慢減。"],["陳委員瑩：就是慢慢減？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：但是我還有一個疑問，就是為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定，他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值？我為什麼這樣問，大家來做一下算術，很簡單，請部長算給我聽，我取一個平均值，這500家除完之後就是31百萬這個平均值，31百萬公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：28.5。"],["陳委員瑩：28.5百萬？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有，你算錯了，是2.5萬，不是2.5百萬。"],["彭部長啓明：OK！對！sorry！"],["陳委員瑩：你的數學不可以輸我音樂系的。","再來，請問2.5萬公噸占31百萬公噸是占多少？"],["彭部長啓明：很低！"],["陳委員瑩：很低是占多少？我算好了，我唸給你聽，2.5萬除以31百萬等於0.00008065，這是皮毛吧！我現在是套你們的公式去算，這就是皮毛啊！如果只是2.5萬，31百萬減掉2.5萬而已，業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣，還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量計畫，我看就不用了！那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的！還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬，你有沒有少寫一個字？我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我中午沒吃飯……"],["陳委員瑩：我也沒吃，不過我頭腦是清楚的。"],["彭部長啓明：我下次再跟你好好來算一次，好不好？"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛講的其實都沒有錯嘛！結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後，非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛！所以我才質疑說你們的2.5萬是不是2.5百萬？是不是寫錯了？如果沒有的話，那就是沒有感覺啊！你這樣有什麼鼓勵的性質在裡面？我就先提出這樣的……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，那個是155百萬除以500事實上不是31百萬噸，大概是310萬噸。"],["陳委員瑩：310萬噸，好，那減掉2.5萬也是很少啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對……"],["陳委員瑩：好，你們大家好好算一算啦！如果它是一個非常明顯的數字，我們大家就不會愣在這兒，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。非常抱歉，因為今天時間真的非常的久，下次再來立法院這邊的話，如果超過吃飯時間，希望部會直接把便當發下去，讓各個同仁能夠吃飯，要不然從12點到現在已經超過兩個小時，真的非常辛苦！","接下來請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天的會議詢答全部結束。委員賴惠員、葉元之委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴惠員書面質詢：","一、據新聞報導指出目前臺灣炭費收費為300元，但各界立場皆有不同層面的影響及聲音，又於本次業報內容中未看見整體淨零炭排，短期及中期目標規劃，身為民代無從檢視政府是否按時達成目標。爰試問除2050淨零炭排外，短期、中期目標為何，而目前炭費收費300元是否有可能達成2050淨零炭排之目標。","二、炭費之收費制定需照減碳成效進行滾動式調整，惟氣候變遷因應法28條第1項及第3項，碳費之徵收費率，由中央主管機關所設之費率審議會審議，送由中央主管機關核定公告，並定期檢討之。其條文內容未明訂定期檢討之時程，爰請環境部研議定期檢討時程為何，依目前整體炭排狀況，需多久檢討一次，並於一個月內與本席報告。","三、目前炭費收費為專款專用，並有固定比例用於減碳輔導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那我先請這個彭部長 請彭部長"},{"start":15.565,"end":26.68,"text":"黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那一開始想要先跟部長就教現在這定價每噸整個大企業是每噸300塊嘛這個是怎麼折衝出來的這個數字"},{"start":32.467,"end":57.405,"text":"這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來"},{"start":60.387,"end":81.313,"text":"對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以"},{"start":81.813,"end":97.679,"text":"有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊"},{"start":100.734,"end":129.986,"text":"因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策?報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型"},{"start":130.846,"end":154.436,"text":"當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢"},{"start":157.617,"end":186.176,"text":"其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還是要擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告"},{"start":186.937,"end":187.05,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":187.717,"end":217.457,"text":"企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願就是我剛剛提到的他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉就像是這個叫什麼叫贖罪券就是我就把錢付掉就好反正跟罰單一樣嘛我就付掉但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛"},{"start":217.897,"end":218.657,"text":"中小企業佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%"},{"start":245.709,"end":268.241,"text":"那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話我想問一下環境部到底這個費用跟他後續的還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分第一個是我這邊也謝謝委喔這個中小企業現階段如果你不是那500家500個廠你也不是金管會上市櫃公司你也不是這個供應鏈裡面的一環你其實你不用擔心的"},{"start":268.601,"end":297.007,"text":"所以這個第一個請企業不用擔心現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分"},{"start":297.367,"end":314.961,"text":"目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。"},{"start":318.624,"end":337.482,"text":"部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要由使用者來負擔嘛"},{"start":338.183,"end":363.558,"text":"那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理"},{"start":364.639,"end":390.854,"text":"報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到了燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數正在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的"},{"start":391.835,"end":392.076,"text":"黃健豪委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:35:30 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這個議題是總統跟院長整個行政團隊都非常關心的議題所以我們現在其實的確我們受到一個新的壓力正在規劃盤點各個部會那有的部會的確是比較慢的比較不積極我們也主動說可不可以更積極一點所以等於是說的確行政院內部各個部會正在討論要設定一個新的目標那我也必須說由下而上"},{"start":238.012,"end":238.152,"text":"主席"},{"start":256.918,"end":276.164,"text":"溫室氣體階段管制目標其實必須要在實施前兩年提出也就是說今年必須要提出那不知道氣候署這邊有沒有辦法如期在年底提出各位委員報告我們現在正在努力當中年底可以提出嗎"},{"start":277.758,"end":290.905,"text":"一定要提出啦一定要提出啦阿就是說如果照原先的規劃數字都不會太好看啦阿我們希望真的努力啦再努力啦所以……原先的規劃你們是預估減量20到28欸就是24加減1啦2030 24加減1啦這個數字不漂亮啊"},{"start":299.98,"end":310.316,"text":"就是希望能夠再漂亮一點我們想像上不漂亮不過要達成很困難所以我們應該要更"},{"start":312.762,"end":333.192,"text":"更實際一點啦就是說我了解部長的意思部長覺得24加減1這個目標不夠好看不過我現在從我們過去已經兩期了第二期已經也只剩下一點時間了就是我們的"},{"start":334.571,"end":352.847,"text":"我們實際的減碳量並沒有辦法達到我們預估的目標啦所以我覺得就是不一定要鎖定在當然可以讓數據很漂亮然後又可以達到這個是"},{"start":354.008,"end":378.622,"text":"是最高的追求方向,假如沒有的話,我覺得還是以實際的怎麼加速碳排的減量,這個才是重點。好不好?方委員那個有一點真的很辛苦,例如說以立法院要減量來說的話,我們現在五天上班嘛,那就有一天不要吹冷氣,都不要開燈就這樣,這樣多痛苦啊。"},{"start":379.202,"end":389.755,"text":"這個對於大家各行各業要檢視真的很辛苦所以我們現在各個部位的確我們很努力在找一些新的方法一些創新的方式來做這個事情這個當然部長跟執行團隊的困境企業的困境"},{"start":398.533,"end":414.662,"text":"其實大家都可以想像不過就是面對新的課題大家總是要找到一條可以解決的方法還有一個就是台電的估算AI的發展會增加未來用電的需求"},{"start":416.601,"end":428.722,"text":"那這個勢必會影響到第3期的溫室氣體階段管制目標你們會氣候署這邊會把這個因素一起納入"},{"start":430.183,"end":430.603,"text":"主席我找一下經濟部"},{"start":464.31,"end":471.433,"text":"部長請坐部長我這邊問一個有關產業的問題我不知道我們經濟部這邊對產業界的所有的國家平均"},{"start":492.881,"end":520.089,"text":"含碳量的調查目前有沒有進度?還是我們已經啟動了沒有?因為歐盟的碳邊境調整基礎就是CBAN課徵除了實際含碳量以及設計含碳量以外為了要因應中小企業的困境所以他還有提供的第三種選擇就是國家平均含碳量對不對?"},{"start":521.45,"end":530.29,"text":"跟委員報告我們台灣的做法是國家排放清澈那這部分是由環境部這邊在整個在是環境部在做處理"},{"start":531.818,"end":558.351,"text":"我 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沛隊字幕"},{"start":186.165,"end":203.523,"text":"開個巧門啊 開個後門啊他的發電量不用有任何的一個碳費的一個徵收就是他反正他攔多少煤發的電攔多少氣發的電他跟所謂的碳費完全沒有相關那這樣子我們有辦法來抑制我們所謂的排碳大戶嗎"},{"start":205.9,"end":231.287,"text":"他是使用他自己的排碳在台灣台電的排碳就不會影響到我們的空汙就不會影響到我們的這個溫室效益他有辦法因為你不算他的錢你不算他的碳費他就不會影響到整個環境不可能嘛所以說其實我們就變成是我們悶在這個土地上就以為沒有收這個碳費以為就看不到"},{"start":233.267,"end":258.505,"text":"部長,我可以再請教,如果說有很多人講是說我們現在有A、B費率,然後還有說如果說完全沒有的話就是一般費率,那不管是300或是40、150,那假設他有申請了,但是實際上他沒有做這樣的一個部分,"},{"start":259.626,"end":275.282,"text":"誰能夠來去做集合我們的集合環境部我們的集合組會有一個小組來做集合我們的人力有多少我們人力現在大概是90位但是我們現在會增加人力來推動做這個事情覺得有辦法去抓因為我相信啊"},{"start":275.782,"end":293.157,"text":"一般的這個企業如果說這樣看出來有300、有50、有100可以來申請那可能大家都會希望申請是最低的那我們之後我們的集合要這怎麼做因為我們看到現在公平會有一個新聞是說如果票率最重罰2500萬"},{"start":296.72,"end":308.409,"text":"表率你最終罰2500萬但是公平會也好或是環境部也好環境部的罰單會有多少他要補繳這個碳費他只是補繳所以如果沒抓到他就逃過他沒有任何的罰還他沒有任何的加重處分"},{"start":317.322,"end":341.941,"text":"這個碳費是一塊一塊就跟你的稅是一樣的?是!但我的意思是說,如果說他今天申請,那沒有辦法去激增到咧?我們就要回溯之前的,全部要繳回來那有沒有加重的一個機制?因為現在公平會他的新聞有提到是說漂綠嘛漂綠的概念"},{"start":344.168,"end":358.429,"text":"對,我們會依照他的,我們每年就是會去進行這個執行成果的查核那每一場都會查那按照現在的收費辦法的規定,如果他有缺的這部分一定要補繳所以我們的人力"},{"start":359.074,"end":386.776,"text":"現在這樣就變成是說人力的部分是確實剛剛部長講90位那我們預計要多少位才夠我們就依照我們當然我們依照目前的人力當然這會結合就是現在的盤茶跟這個茶宴的這個地方政府環保環保局會不會一起進來最主要是我們的部分那我們會請地方政府來透過這個協助的這個茶廠的部分一起來進行嗯哼好所以人力的規劃"},{"start":387.657,"end":388.378,"text":"最後一分鐘我給大家看一個畫面"},{"start":408.206,"end":418.498,"text":"我只要說因為本席上禮拜有收到也有公家機關我就不講哪個機關他說基層同仁真的很辛苦為什麼這樣講這個"},{"start":420.95,"end":449.419,"text":"大家傳出來說要節能減碳所以說呢有公家機關直接在辦公室裡面自製降溫工具水桶裡面裝冰塊電風扇裡面加冰塊然後再往前吹我說這他那個畫面就是一個水桶裡面放大冰塊然後電風扇吹我說不知道我以為是在廟口廟會你知道嗎好像戶外廟會那個降溫但沒想到他是我們其中真的是中華民國"},{"start":451.34,"end":465.06,"text":"現在此時此刻的公家機關在辦公室裡面那我們又對比看到說明年的部會電費又每一個部會總統府也暴增600多萬監察院暴增100多萬行政院暴增300多萬"},{"start":467.352,"end":487.692,"text":"我們真的想講是說環境部當然這可能跟還是一樣能源的一個部分但我真的講是說當我們看到上級單位冷氣該吹還是吹辦公室還是涼結果反而我們基層的第一線同仁基層的公務同仁需要用這個自製冰塊自製降溫工具我為他們感到不捨部長"},{"start":491.673,"end":491.693,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":521.344,"end":521.364,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:06:36 - 13:15:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155458","gazette":{"lineno":1326,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時6分）主席謝謝，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。我想每個委員都語重心長講，但我們不希望變狗吠火車，更希望政府要拿出實際的作為，真的來推動節能減碳的部分。","我先請教一下，在上禮拜這個碳費費率千呼萬喚始出來的時候，我先看到一個新聞，臺中經發局有講，因為中火是排碳大戶，換算它的排碳量來講，它預計要繳15億的碳費。後來大家又講說這個規則，其實台電──我們所謂的排碳大戶，不管是燃煤電廠、燃氣電廠等排碳大戶，它本身發出來的電其實不收碳費的。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它只有自己用才收碳費，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：是，所以他其實也做出更正。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我想請教一下，大家會說台中火力發電廠是一個最大的燃煤發電廠，本席的選區林口火力發電廠三部機組也是燃煤發電廠，上一次在同一個地點（委員會）的時候我也跟你請教過，如果環境部沒有一個強而有力的目標政策的話，沒有辦法引導或沒有辦法導正錯誤的能源政策！當國際趨勢都是減碳、2035年不再使用燃煤來發電，結果我們國家還是背道而馳，我們還是一樣火力發電，要嘛燃煤、要嘛燃氣。我想請教如果依照這樣子的公式，中火預計要繳多少的碳費？"],["彭部長啓明：大概九千多萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：九千多萬？"],["彭部長啓明：整個是台電一起繳。"],["洪委員孟楷：才九千多萬！"],["彭部長啓明：對，九千多萬、不到一億。"],["洪委員孟楷：九千多萬對比整個台電，不管現在虧損千億或者它每年發電要千億，這根本杯水車薪呀！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，如果他……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣的話，你根本沒有辦法有具體的方向讓台電也去思考自己是不是應該要符合國際趨勢潮流！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，委員，如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們還是持續要擁抱火力發電。"],["彭部長啓明：中火如果按照原來排碳量的話，大概要繳到6億；如果它很努力做減碳的話，最低、最低可以繳到一億多，所以這個就是它願意來做的一個動力。那整個台電來說，它如果完全不做任何事情，那它大概要繳到21億；如果很努力做的話，大概是5億。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實剛剛我們幾個委員都講，但我的重點在於，我們的排碳大戶、最大宗是不是能源的部分？是不是燃煤的部分？這些都是！我們一直在強調，如果你有徵碳費的話，也許大家可以去思考，大家坐下來、靜下來思考說，到底我們要的國家能源方向是什麼嗎？可是你們開宗明義已經幫台電開一個巧門、開一個後門啦！"],["彭部長啓明：它是要做減碳……"],["洪委員孟楷：它的發電量不用有任何的碳費徵收，反正它燃多少煤發的電、燃多少氣發的電跟所謂的碳費完全沒有相關，那這樣子我們有辦法抑制所謂的排碳大戶嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：它是使用它自己的排碳……"],["洪委員孟楷：難道在臺灣，台電的排碳就不會影響到我們的空污、就不會影響到我們的溫室效應？它有辦法……因為你不算它的錢、你不算它的碳費，它就不會影響到整個環境？不可能嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：但是它使用者……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以就變成我們悶在這個土地上，沒有收這個碳費就以為看不到。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，報告委員，我們其實涵蓋了54%，不是只有台電而已喔！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我再請教，有很多人講我們現在有A、B費率，還有如果是完全沒有做減碳的話，就是一般費率，不管是300或是100、50，假設它有申請了，但實際上它沒有做這樣的一個部分，誰能夠來去做稽核？我們的稽核。"],["彭部長啓明：環境部，我們氣候署會有一個小組來做稽核。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們的人力有多少？"],["彭部長啓明：我們人力現在大概是90位，但是我們現在會增加人力來推動做這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：覺得有辦法去抓……因為我相信，一般企業如果說這樣看出來有300、有50、有100可以來申請，那可能大家都會希望申請是最低的。"],["彭部長啓明：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那我們之後的稽核要怎麼做？因為我們看到現在公平會有一個新聞是說，如果「漂綠」最重罰2,500萬，對不對？「漂綠」最重罰2,500萬，但是公平會也好，或是環境部也好，環境部的罰單會有多少？"],["彭部長啓明：它要補繳這個碳費，它要補繳。"],["洪委員孟楷：它只是補繳？"],["彭部長啓明：補繳碳費。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以如果沒抓到，它就逃過？"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦！報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：它沒有任何的罰鍰？它沒有任何的加重處分？"],["彭部長啓明：這個碳費是一塊、一塊，就跟你的稅是一樣的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但我的意思是……對，沒有錯，我的意思是如果它今天申請優惠費率，卻沒有辦法去稽徵到呢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們就要回溯之前的，全部要繳回來。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有沒有加重的一個機制？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，我們會依照……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為現在公平會的新聞有提到「漂綠」嘛？「漂綠」的概念……"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣的東西。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["蔡署長玲儀：對，我們會依照它的……我們每年會去進行執行成果的查核，每一廠都會查，按照現在收費辦法的規定，如果它有缺的，這部分一定要補繳。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在這樣就變成人力的部分？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實，剛剛部長有講90位，我們預計要多少位才夠？"],["蔡署長玲儀：依照目前的人力，當然這會結合現在的盤查跟查驗的……"],["洪委員孟楷：地方政府環保局會不會一起進來？"],["蔡署長玲儀：最主要是我們的部分，我們會請地方政府來協助查廠的部分一起來進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以人力的規劃？"],["蔡署長玲儀：有，我們正在進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，之後再給本席一個書面資料，好不好？這位是？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我是氣候變遷署署長。"],["彭部長啓明：氣候署署長。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長？好，署長手受傷？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：早日康復。"],["蔡署長玲儀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後1分鐘，我給大家看一個畫面，有照片嗎？沒有照片？沒關係，我只是要說，本席上禮拜有收到，也有公家機關，我就不講哪個機關，他說基層同仁真的很辛苦，為什麼這樣講？大家傳出來說要節能減碳，所以有公家機關直接在辦公室裡面自製降溫工具，水桶裡面裝冰塊，電風扇裡面加冰塊，然後再往前吹。我說真的，它那個畫面就是一個水桶裡面放大冰塊，然後電風扇吹，我說不知道的人還以為是在廟口廟會，你知道嗎？好像戶外廟會那個降溫，但沒想到它是我們其中，真的是中華民國現在此時此刻的公家機關，在辦公室裡面。","我們又對比看到明年部會的電費、每一個部會，總統府也暴增六百多萬、監察院暴增一百多萬、行政院暴增三百多萬。我們真的想講的是環境部，當然這可能還是一樣能源的部分，但當我們看到上級單位冷氣該吹還是吹，辦公室還是涼，結果反而基層的第一線同仁、基層的公務同仁需要用自製冰塊自製降溫工具。我為他們感到不捨！","部長，節能減碳或是要取碳費，我覺得就是要玩真的，因為2050馬上就到，尤其是上一次我跟你質詢的時候我也講了，當2025你說的10%現在達不到，2030本來說要25%正負1，不知道，結果又喊出2032年40%目標的時候，要怎麼做到才是重點……"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在正在努力、正在規劃……"],["洪委員孟楷：數字很漂亮，但是怎麼做、實際做、真的能夠做這才是重點，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去 人家就要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠 台灣不好意思 要刷去外國去 簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊 不是十年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險 然後再給你打兩折"},{"start":267.765,"end":270.848,"text":"所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的。那高碳洩漏,物量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業,只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少,都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊。"},{"start":289.108,"end":305.004,"text":"那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元"},{"start":307.952,"end":326.316,"text":"你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏在打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢"},{"start":337.81,"end":340.434,"text":"民間也幫你賺了13.7億台積電繳多少?10億10.4億中油繳多少?不到1億中鋼繳多少?"},{"start":355.7,"end":370.265,"text":"不到兩億啦!所以人家都幫你們算了!所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是"},{"start":378.289,"end":386.214,"text":"欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才有說過啦,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,"},{"start":401.687,"end":415.419,"text":"都已經要執行了 如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元 優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長 這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣 歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話 那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課"},{"start":426.591,"end":438.717,"text":"再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦"},{"start":440.956,"end":468.028,"text":"我先來說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年但各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價"},{"start":469.349,"end":483.185,"text":"丹麥、加拿大、河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。"},{"start":489.571,"end":513.086,"text":"那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去"},{"start":516.059,"end":522.344,"text":"你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換修律系數對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度"},{"start":535.656,"end":550.804,"text":"會達不到那個標準嗎?包委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證"},{"start":563.07,"end":572.573,"text":"施工已經沒有留在台灣：所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平：現在企增價過低：未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力：這不是我們立委都這麼親切公共：大多數都不用叫啦"},{"start":581.226,"end":604.201,"text":"但是事實上呢這個像油電價格補貼想有排一噸碳高達一千元以上的補貼在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生外部成本每噸是五千七百元結果他們光是一個碳費一噸二十元說得過去嗎"},{"start":605.442,"end":627.462,"text":"所以碳費的課徵其實矯正這種不公平的第一步留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用當然部長這樣一般費率300元大多數事實上都課不到300元遠低於國際水準你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告"},{"start":629.107,"end":649.238,"text":"報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久對阿還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度沒有很高阿因為你扣二十塊到十塊大多少"},{"start":650.799,"end":656.28,"text":"而且不要忘了,你們盤點的繳費是一場一場,譬如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了,它是一個場一個場去計算的。喔,整個台塑?是嗎?你們兩萬五的Quota扣減額度,兩萬五一場一場,你搞不清楚,不是我搞不清楚,每一場都擁有兩萬五千公噸的免費額。"},{"start":674.625,"end":676.907,"text":"所以整個台塑如果20個廠,大概20個廠減掉2萬5,跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5,變成25萬噸的減碳欸,那個免費額欸,所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了,並不是沒有,然後再高碳排再優惠,再打兩折,打一折打兩折,竟然沒有100元啦,"},{"start":702.188,"end":730.464,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢"},{"start":731.567,"end":732.615,"text":"我們在這裡先講好喔"},{"start":734.645,"end":740.588,"text":"所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為所未為討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦"},{"start":763.061,"end":767.644,"text":"所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是二十個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不可以說三百塊啦一檔叫二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦"},{"start":793.66,"end":794.02,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:52:58 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13:06:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155457","gazette":{"lineno":1281,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時53分）謝謝主席，是不是還是請彭部長？"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，第六次的碳費費率審議會確定了碳費徵收的費率，但是這個決議距離有效推動減碳的目標相去甚遠，今天質詢的委員都覺得這樣企業怎麼活，這樣大家都沒有競爭力；但是我要持不同的意見，就是除了跟推動減碳的目標相去甚遠以外，可能還使臺灣在國際碳邊境也就是CBAM之下處於不利的位置，而且會拖累我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍，我必須要再講，以歐盟鋼鐵製品為例，臺灣這三年平均輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模？"],["彭部長啓明：我記得數字大概是五、六億左右。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼五、六億？臺灣是39.72億美金！美金！"],["彭部長啓明：美金，對。"],["林委員淑芬：我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面輸出到歐盟占了百分之幾？18.79%、將近兩成，我們鋼鐵外銷將近兩成都是賣給歐盟，所以CBAM的機制對臺灣影響很大。我今天要講你們現在公告的碳費費率也遠低於國際標準，所以我們今天很害怕的就是，明年還沒有要起徵，在這種狀況之下，你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳？你們現在一般費率1公噸是300元，優惠的方案B是1公噸100元，優惠的方案A是1公噸50元，這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的。歐盟碳交易市場，因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵輸出到歐盟，以鋼鐵業為例，就不要講電子產品，以鋼鐵業為例，歐盟的碳交易市場1公噸是多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：70塊歐元左右。"],["林委員淑芬：70塊歐元，新臺幣2,500元。以美國環保署去估算，每噸碳排放的外部成本，也就是丟給社會去承擔的，1公噸是190美元，就相當於新臺幣6,100元，才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度。倫敦政經學院的研究團隊說臺灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3,000元，當然倫敦政經學院講是它的事啦；但是我們要根據台灣氣候行動網絡的研究，人家民間有做了一個研究，它說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B，也就是1公噸100元，然後大家都在講高碳洩漏的風險企業還享有排放量調整係數值的折扣，所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業，有可能它的費率1公噸是繳多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：乘以0.2。"],["林委員淑芬：所以剩下20元。我現在再跟你講，我認為高碳洩漏這幾個字是古早的概念，現在的概念……一個台塑河靜廠拖幾年？你跟我說。"],["彭部長啓明：你說那個……"],["林委員淑芬：從他們預計計畫興建到可以運作，拖幾年？高碳洩漏，這是假議題啦！用高碳洩漏的概念，然後來給企業打折，我也可以這樣子講啊！你說一個石化業要遷出去，人家就讓你遷出去？一個鋼鐵廠，臺灣不做了，要移到外國那麼簡單喔？台塑河靜廠搞幾年啦，不是十年而已。所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險，然後說再給它打兩折，所以我說今天1公噸30元也是假議題、也是假的。高碳洩漏，污染及用電最高的石化鋼鐵業只需要繳……實際的碳費可能繳不了多少，都遠低於日本的碳價水準，更不要講其他國際標準。我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制，淪為產業逃避減碳的藉口。你們的費率A方案低到1公噸50元，相當於1公斤的排碳量只需要繳0.05元？你們的優惠費率A、B方案1公噸100元、1公噸50元，高碳洩漏再打折，打兩折就是20元跟10元，比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊！這樣的費率，大家在你們開會的時候就說對於推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的，你們預計一年收60億，你來告訴我，如果照這樣施行，台塑一年要繳交多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：這要看它提出的自主減量計畫。"],["林委員淑芬：人家民間也幫你算了，13.7億；台積電繳多少？10.4億；中油繳多少？不到1億；中鋼繳多少？"],["彭部長啓明：大概4億……"],["林委員淑芬：不到2億啦！人家都幫你們算了。所以在這種狀況之下，這些費率、優惠費率的A方案、B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款，缺乏退場機制的優惠費率成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口。但不只是這麼簡單，如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節，影響產業的國際競爭力，不是說臺灣繳少一點就好了，我們才有競爭力，不是！我剛才有說過，鋼鐵業有將近19%、將近兩成是輸出到歐盟，人家2026年開始的CBAM都已經要執行了，如果臺灣1公噸繳20元，優惠費率打兩折繳20元，請問部長，這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣？歐盟是一公噸2,500，我們在臺灣只繳20元的話，那到CBAM的機制、到歐盟是不是會再補課？還要再去買憑證，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個不一樣，歐盟有一個是總量管制的排放交易，但在那個以下，他其實也有這種高碳洩漏、也有一些免費額度，超過它才要這樣的費用。"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，我就問你啦，臺灣的碳費相較於中、日、韓，我們起步已經很晚了，而我們還要再延緩一年，但各國都在制定更嚴格的碳定價，連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電解鋁……綜合價格收盤價在今年都要突破100元人民幣；韓國在今年制定第四階段，要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系，而且還要提升碳價；丹麥、加拿大、荷蘭就不要講了；連新加坡都規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元。如果臺灣的碳費費率偏低，沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳，它可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機，現在這種20元、10元的碳費費率設計難以推動產業轉型、阻礙綠色經濟發展！","所以在2026年CBAM正式實施以後，到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅？如果我們的費率太低，不管用什麼技術去換算，差額是不是要繳到歐盟去？你繳給歐盟跟繳給臺灣，臺灣至少還可以把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實歐盟也有一個免費額度，他也有這種……"],["林委員淑芬：對，但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個免費的額度，會達不到那個標準嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個不要政府做，出口的企業自己都有這個意識，那也必須說……"],["林委員淑芬：那要看什麼樣的企業，現在的意思是說，你在臺灣、錢要留在臺灣、在臺灣徵收，臺灣政府可以來推動我們的實質減碳或者是氣候調適的政策，有錢可以用，到時候企業再去那邊跟外國買，或是繳錢給歐盟買那個憑證，到時候錢就不留在臺灣了！","所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃，忽視了歷史性的不公平，現在起徵價過低，未來企業面臨更急遽的碳價上漲壓力。這不是我們立委在這裡隨便說說，大多數都不用繳啦！事實上，像油電價格補貼，享有排一噸碳高達1,000元以上的補貼，在企業界都是這樣子呀！所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候的發生，外部成本是5,700元/噸，結果他們的碳費是20元/噸，說得過去嗎？所以碳費徵收其實是矯正這種不公平的第一步，留著讓我們來減量或者是讓我們來調適用。","部長，一般費率300元，事實上大多數都課不到300元，遠低於國際水準，針對我們這樣子的競爭劣勢有沒有做過評估報告？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為歐盟是2026年才開始，我們還有一點時間……"],["林委員淑芬：2026不會很久。"],["彭部長啓明：對，還有兩年的時間，所以我們先上路啦，不然的話，如果照委員那個比較高的數字，當然我也期待比較高，但如果這個高的話，其實整個要推動起來的確有一定的難度。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有很高，因為大多數你們徵收20元到10元，而且不要忘了，你們盤點的繳費是一廠、一廠，比如說台塑就不是整個台塑，它是一個廠、一個廠去計算的。"],["彭部長啓明：整個台塑……"],["林委員淑芬：是嗎？你們兩萬五的quota、扣減額度兩萬五……"],["彭部長啓明：一廠、一廠啦……"],["林委員淑芬：一廠、一廠，你搞不清楚、不是我搞不清楚！每一廠都擁有2萬5,000公噸的免費額，所以整個台塑如果有20個廠，20個廠減掉兩萬五，跟20個廠每一廠場減掉兩萬五變成25萬噸的免費額，所以你們已經大大地在照顧這些業者了，並不是沒有！然後高碳排再優惠、再打兩折，徵收不到100元啦！所以在這種狀況裡面，優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制，你可不可以告訴我們？"],["彭部長啓明：我們未來會逐步隨著時間進行，每兩年會調整一次，所以這個一定會有退場的機制。"],["林委員淑芬：這個會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任，而這個優惠費率你說兩年檢討一次，但是會不會像國土計畫法、會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一延再延，你覺得呢？我們在這裡先講好，300元是假的，100元才是真的，但是100元還可以打兩折！","事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價，中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了，在這種狀況下，你的優惠不落日、難以落日，到時候不要說對臺灣不利，對這些企業本身就不利了！所以我們需要的是魄力十足的政策，而不是這樣畏首畏尾、討好財團。現在這些要徵收的都是財團，一般中小企業很少，所以我們希望看到更加完善、更具前瞻性的碳費政策規劃。2萬5,000公噸的免費額還是一廠、一廠的，如果有20個廠就是50萬噸的免費額了！所以這對大財團、大企業都非常有利，不要說300元，大多數一噸徵收20塊到10塊而已。部長，這樣聽得懂嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：聽得懂、聽得懂。"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛，現在我問你，未來會不會像國土計畫法、工廠輔導法一樣永無落日的一天？"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦、不會啦，委員放心！"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，希望看到你們做的時候不會這樣。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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我跟委員報告齁應該本來這是一個計畫現在變成三線海線還有甲二線甲二線是這三個都分拔開對 變成三個指向那現在這兩個三線海線大家比較有共識嘛所以現在請那個他不是共識 他是繼承政策什麼叫做共識因為自從對那個經費上大家有比較大的歧見那個是執行細節 次長請你搞清楚好不好"},{"start":342.908,"end":348.771,"text":"你交通部是政策欸我連長度都告訴你14.3公里欸三座高架的車站欸總經費351.14億欸照比例分配欸你的比例分配都出來了欸你今天跟我說你們沒有共識這到底怎麼回事啊"},{"start":367.14,"end":386.912,"text":"中四我必須分攤的在甲歐段是53.2%海線的部分42.5%對不對?三線延伸的部分是56.19你連中央地方分配的預算都已經比例分配出來了都已經有了你告訴我沒有共識那怎麼回事啊?市長"},{"start":392.082,"end":408.97,"text":"我這樣講 之前在談這個假後線主要是因為它的經濟就財務的可行性是不是可以那時候大家比較不一樣一見所以才把這三個全部就把它拆分對阿你已經拆分你就是要政策要去執行阿所以本期要問你進度阿請教進度"},{"start":413.379,"end":429.159,"text":"你今天如果沒有假貨線串聯你就不是真正的叫做山海環線嘛對不對這是在你的大政策裡頭你已經將預算路線都已經規劃下去啊那你為什麼不執行請教"},{"start":433.834,"end":463.495,"text":"我們一個結論這三個指向前面兩個你們6月29告訴我們西部要修正我們台中市政府儘快修正請你們趕快要協助第三個指向甲後線如果沒有串聯起來它不是山海環線嘛那你已經預估351.14億而且三個高架車站總長度14.3公里我請你趕快去追進度好不好趕快去追進度好不好"},{"start":464.283,"end":464.445,"text":"好!好!"},{"start":465.714,"end":493.028,"text":"你不要讓我嚇一跳怎麼沒有共識你已經都出來一個政府怎麼一個政策出來竟然告訴我沒有共識怎麼可以如此我再一次強調假後線串聯起來才真正叫做山海環線山海環線再一個一分鐘給我謝謝主席市長、局長在這邊現在改制為公司今年1月份我們目前為止我覺得很緊張所以拜託主席給我這個"},{"start":494.963,"end":523.09,"text":"一點時間齁我們今年1月到7月臺鐵公司改為公司化呢585件事故在你們的出入口貼了一個什麼安全憲章你們貼了一個安全憲章你改之為公司你竟然增加了4成的一個事故接下來你們有一個五年安全提升計畫五年安全提升計畫市長你在這裡你督導著"},{"start":524.366,"end":550.28,"text":"你們改字為公司竟然你的事故增加4成這種回事什麼原因?要不要去親近?結果論你的事故增加了4成你怎麼樣告訴我們的社會大眾你改字為公司市長你不了解這個數字我看你一頭霧水我就告訴你本是告訴你這個數字1月到7月585件比去年同期增加4成你會不會緊張會不會憂心啊?要怎麼因應?"},{"start":554.445,"end":556.307,"text":"因為你們後天10月16號電費增加你們會增加多少錢成本"},{"start":577.304,"end":593.481,"text":"我們成本出估應該會增加3億增加3億那我告訴你一句話10月22號又是你們要審查要不要漲票價錯誤的能源政策不能轉嫁到我們的消費者市長你要不要承諾"},{"start":594.858,"end":612.562,"text":"你要不要承諾?可以喔!10月22不能漲電價!你說的可以喔!我告訴你喔!錯誤的能源政策不能變相到我們的消費者!你告訴我們10月22號你那個會議我們會先跟委員報告我們先從我們的節電的部分結合對!所以10月22號你不能漲電價!不能漲票價!對不對?你剛才答應我的!你答應我我謝謝你!對不對?市長"},{"start":621.82,"end":621.84,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:53:57 - 13:04:33","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155456","gazette":{"lineno":952,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時53分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，想邀請次長。"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好。首先我們來討論我們的臺中山海環線，因為我們臺中已經是285萬人口，我們的部長也來自臺中，所以更加了解地方的需求性，所以臺中的山海環線對我們整個地方上來講，目前從胡志強市長、林佳龍市長以及到現在的盧秀燕市長，它可以說是非常重要，大家極力在推動，之前為了一些預算要怎麼樣去分，所以卡關了，當然我們臺中市政府也提出了非常大的善意，盧市長，我們的目標、共同目標，也就是希望趕快拍板定案，終於在1月份的時候由行政院指示交通部，告訴我們地方說必須要將這個案子分為三個子項，在2月份的時候我們也一直積極趕快送上來，到目前為止，這三個子項，第一個，大慶烏日段3.7公里，高架車站在烏日；第二個，我們整個海線雙軌暨部分的高架化，這個部分總長度25.9公里，也有三個部分，大甲、清水、沙鹿三個高架的車站；再加上我們極力吶喊的，因為唯一加上的甲后線的鐵路，如果這一段加上來就真的是整個山海環線才是真正地到位，所以我也感謝我們新增的努力所成的甲后線的鐵路，我們總共是14.3公里，高架的車站也增加三個位置，換句話說整個甲后線串聯起來才是真正的叫做山海環線。","所以本席要請教，到目前為止，我們是在三個子項當中，包括了大慶烏日段以及海線的雙軌暨高架化的部分，現在由我們臺中市政府做最後的修正，這個進度是如此，所以我們如果送上來的時候，就請交通部要趕快協助讓行政院來拍板定案，在這三項子項當中，甲后段的部分，現在進程如何呢？請做說明。"],["伍次長勝園：甲后段應該還沒有送上來才對，還在臺中市政府。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們都已經送上來，為什麼還沒送上來？怎麼會差這麼大？在113年的2月23號，三個項目已經送上來了，甲后線總共14.3公里，高架車站新增三個車站，本席要請問進度如何？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，當初其實本來整個是一個計畫，後來拆分成三個計畫，其中山線跟海線的部分，交通部審查委員會是已經通過了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是在3月29號轉陳行政院審議嘛！"],["楊局長正君：現在就是行政院還有一些意見……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：行政院6月27號下來給我們，臺中市政府團隊非常積極。"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們最後趕快修正完，依照你們所指示的趕快修正。"],["楊局長正君：修正完之後我們會趕快再轉報到行政院。甲后線的部分，在部裡面其實是還沒有共識，我想這一部分，我們後續會再來跟臺中市政府討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：潘朵拉掀開耶！怎麼會如此呢？什麼部裡面還沒有共識，怎麼會如此？"],["楊局長正君：山線跟海線的部分，過去交通部的審查委員會是已經審查同意，甲后線的部分是還沒有通過相關的審查程序沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你交通部在113年1月30號書面資料，對不對？書面資料是奉你們的指示將計畫拆分為山線、海線及甲后線三本報告書耶！你這樣跟我講我們會嚇一跳耶！你的預算怎麼來的？還沒有共識，你的預算怎麼來呢？怎麼會如此？次長。"],["伍次長勝園：因為我理解是之前在審查甲后線的部分，大概有比較大的意見，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：14.3公里，預算351.14億，預算長度、工程長度都出來了啊！所以本席要問你，進度到底是怎麼樣？你的框架已經出來，你今天告訴我你們還沒有共識，怎麼可以這樣欺騙我們臺中人呢？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，應該本來這是一個計畫，現在變成山線、海線還有甲后線，這三個都……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你分為三個子項嘛！對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：對，變成三個子項，現在這兩個山線、海線，大家比較有共識，所以現在請那個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：它不是共識，它是既成政策，什麼叫做共識？"],["伍次長勝園：因為對那個經費上大家有比較大的歧見啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那個是執行細節，次長，請搞清楚好不好？你交通部是政策，我連長度都告訴你，14.3公里、三座高架的車站，總經費351.14億，照比率分配，你們的比率分配都出來了耶！今天跟我說你們沒有共識，這到底怎麼回事啊？縱使我們必須分攤的，在甲后段是53.2%，海線的部分42.54%，對不對？山線延伸的是56.19%，連中央地方比率分配的預算都已經出來了，都已經有了，你卻告訴我沒有共識，這怎麼回事啊？次長。"],["伍次長勝園：我這樣講好了，因為之前在談這個甲后線，主要是因為它的經濟，也就是財務可行性是不是可以，那時候大家有比較不一樣的意見，所以才把這3個拆分，拆分了以後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊，已經拆分了，政策就是要去執行啊！所以本席要問你進度，請教進度？今天如果沒有甲后線串聯，就不是真正的山海環線嘛，對不對？這是在你們的大政策裡頭，你們已經將預算、路線都規劃下去了，請教你們為什麼不執行？","一個結論，這3個子項，關於前面兩個，你們告訴我們6月29日要做細部修正，臺中市政府儘快修正，請你們趕快協助。第3個子項──甲后線，如果沒有串聯起來，它不是山海環線嘛，你們已經預估351.14億，而且3個高架車站，總長度14.3公里，我請你們趕快去追進度，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：趕快去追進度，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不要讓我嚇一跳，什麼沒有共識？你們已經都出來……一個政府怎麼一個政策出來，竟然告訴我沒有共識？怎麼可以如此？我再一次強調，甲后線串聯起來才真正叫做山海環線。","再給我1分鐘，謝謝主席。次長、局長在這邊，臺鐵今年1月份改制為公司，目前為止，我覺得很緊張，所以拜託主席給我一點時間。今年1月到7月，臺鐵改為公司化，有585件事故，在你們的出入口貼了一個安全憲章，你們改制為公司，你們竟然增加了四成的事故，接下來你們有一個5年安全提升計畫，次長你在這裡，你督導的，你們改制為公司，竟然事故增加四成，這怎麼回事？什麼原因？要不要精進？結果論，你們的事故增加了四成，你們怎麼告訴我們的社會大眾？改制為公司，次長你不了解這個數字，我看你一頭霧水，本席就告訴你這個數字，1月到7月共585件，比去年同期增加四成，你會不會緊張、會不會憂心啊？要怎麼因應？"],["伍次長勝園：我想這部分剛剛提到了，事件確實比過去提高……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：增加四成，很恐怖耶！"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼因應？"],["伍次長勝園：我們後續會再跟臺鐵公司……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們把因應方案給本席，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你們後天（10月16號）電費增加，你們會增加多少成本？"],["杜董事長微：我們成本粗估應該會增加三億多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：增加三億，那我告訴你一句話，10月22號你們又要審查要不要漲票價，錯誤的能源政策不能轉嫁到我們的消費者，次長，你要不要承諾？"],["伍次長勝園：沒問題，可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以喔，10月22號不能漲票價，你說可以喔！我告訴你，錯誤的能源政策不能變相影響到我們消費者，你告訴我們，10月22號的會議……"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，我們先從節電、節能來做處理……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以10月22號你們不能漲票價，對不對？你剛才答應我的，對不對？你答應我，我謝謝你，次長。"],["伍次長勝園：我剛剛講的對電費的部分，我們會先從節能來處理……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以不能變相漲票價。"],["伍次長勝園：讓它不要成為成本，我們會努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會努力達陣喔，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來邀請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在現場。","接下來邀請張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員不在現場。","接下來邀請林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員不在現場。","接下來邀請高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在現場。","接下來邀請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在現場。","接下來邀請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在現場。","接下來邀請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在現場。","接下來邀請游顥委員，游顥委員、游顥委員，游顥委員不在現場。","接下來邀請林月琴委員，林月琴委員、林月琴委員，林月琴委員不在現場。","接下來邀請劉建國委員，劉建國委員、劉建國委員，劉建國委員不在現場。","接下來邀請葉元之委員，葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在現場。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員游顥、邱若華、劉建國還有林沛祥委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩請吳次長跟台鐵董事長請吳次長還有杜威董事長來 次長好吳彥豪次長知不知道工程會來盤點我們中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的這個預算來講最後一名是哪一個部會"},{"start":29.332,"end":30.352,"text":"臺鐵68個站的耗資系統更新了那當時2021年被"},{"start":57.298,"end":77.33,"text":"說叫做世紀大標案那時候可能也有很多的一個狀態就是說有6家廠商然後得標然後那時候有開標、招標、延宕等等的部分那不管2021年的一個事情嘛但到現在我想請教次長知不知道說這樣的一個標案現在延宕了多久"},{"start":79.164,"end":93.525,"text":"我知道這個是跟應該是西門子公司那原本預計什麼時候這一個整個標案會完成不清楚"},{"start":98.291,"end":122.682,"text":"115那現在要延到118115延到118已經預計延宕兩年了會不會在118如期如始完成不一定但是現在已經延宕兩年了所以才會本席開宗明義先講工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會其中給交通部就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%"},{"start":126.784,"end":154.538,"text":"那我想請教到目前為止臺鐵董事長知道這個案件我們事工單位是不是我們的公務人員也跟你報告說為什麼會延宕那麼久很多原因嘛 什麼樣的原因大致上的原因就是疫情還有就是我們的這個得標的製造商西門子他對於這個整個合約的執行他有他一些跟我們不同的看法"},{"start":154.918,"end":170.868,"text":"不同的看法我們是甲方他是乙方他有什麼不同看法那甲方要求他要做當時也應該我們的規格標案等等的設計出來乙方就要執行啊是那因為他的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年"},{"start":172.38,"end":200.177,"text":"這跟委員報告這兩年不是只有這一個不過剛剛講的這個西門子跟我們的這個履約的情形基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神但是他有另外一種看法就是他是同胞的他認為同胞應該是中間有一些可以調整那這個這裡面的項目我這邊就不贅述但是我們現在正在積極的跟他協調"},{"start":201.218,"end":208.423,"text":"主要是廠商的問題佔大部分施工能力不足他自己承攬了之後他的施工能力其實是不足的所以說造成是說對於我們這邊沒有辦法有一個足夠的一個推進再來設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良"},{"start":230.967,"end":232.228,"text":"以及第4點團隊是捷運系統經驗者沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗"},{"start":258.527,"end":284.97,"text":"事情大了我覺得這件事情在81億的耗資整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統並且希望提高可靠度、安全度在2021年的時候做這個標案那時候6家來去標因為是外商大家都來標結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告到最後招標日期一延再延引發異議"},{"start":286.584,"end":305.299,"text":"到最後這一家廠商得標我們都不講說內部有沒有像什麼樣的一個狀況可是沒想到六家廠商照理講選出一家應該是我們認為說最合理最可靠的廠商結果兩年多過去了執行反而這家廠商是有長期溝通不良內部溝通問題還有原來他的"},{"start":309.142,"end":318.165,"text":"團隊是捷運系統經驗者跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣那當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商?這跟委員報告齁這一個案子當初在這個就是投標齁投標的過程齁是我有看過那投資一半我現在在請教啦投資一半"},{"start":339.547,"end":346.192,"text":"能不能完成在2029年還有5年的時間如果說這個團隊持續這樣子我不知道算不算擺爛但是看得出來我們台鐵內部的同仁也覺得說這廠商問題很大"},{"start":360.026,"end":378.759,"text":"那還有市長我都不好意思講這有沒有陣風相關要調查不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標我們也期待國人應該把錢花在刀口上也期待說找到一個好的廠商但結果千挑萬選選到一家這家廠商結果他原來是捷運系統經驗者沒有台灣傳統鐵路經驗"},{"start":381.267,"end":409.651,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,裡面講的這些問題齁,其實像剛剛講的他的團隊齁,現在他應該有做一些改組,我了解有做一些改組,也就是說西班牙這個的設計團隊現在已經不要他做了,那找比較熟悉的比較好溝通,目前應該走,朝正面的方向在走。那現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嗎?對,是台鐵工程是比較沒那麼容易,對。"},{"start":411.431,"end":433.56,"text":"市長我想我還是希望是說這個計畫當初大家都講世紀大標案就是因為台鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億然後全台灣的號誌要做一個改變如果說能夠改變能夠一體當然好但現在重點在於是說過了兩三年之後看到這樣的一些問題而延宕了兩年來我們再看下一張喔我就一併講這個是在我們這個"},{"start":444.823,"end":467.925,"text":"應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫交通部洋洋灑灑計畫執行率其中裡面很多計畫你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫執行率差了12%你看延伸相關的一些計畫執行率都是有差2、30%甚至還有"},{"start":469.977,"end":495.527,"text":"你看最後新車安全平等精進計畫應該現在預計執行率50%結果是0%執行我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行錢到位了要人給人要錢給錢要台鐵從局變成公司也變了招牌也掛了"},{"start":496.854,"end":519.877,"text":"但是該做的事情要拿出來要做安全要精進那還有剛剛的80億的這個標案本席會持續的來關心已經延宕了兩年還有裡面有沒有人謀不章的部分該啟動調查請也啟動調查那次長你剛剛也講了有滾動檢討是不是是不是可以在這個禮拜"},{"start":521.511,"end":546.363,"text":"給本席一份資料針對這一個部分現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候2028年之前你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去能夠確保2028年、2029年能夠完成是不是可以兩個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜可以但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題那如果說最嚴重的話廠商"},{"start":547.608,"end":558.052,"text":"我們除了罰款除了他如果說一直不配合我不知道看起來他是溝通不良他明明是乙方但怎麼那麼囂張還在西班牙團隊還要逼我們去換設計團隊"},{"start":559.974,"end":560.234,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:43:52 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12:53:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155455","gazette":{"lineno":900,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時43分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請伍次長及臺鐵董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長，還有杜微董事長。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你知不知道工程會盤點中央部會所有部會決議後現在執行的預算來講，最後一名是哪一個部會？"],["伍次長勝園：最後，是不是？"],["洪委員孟楷：對，最後，就是已經有得標了，但是預算龐大，現在執行率是不力的，就是速度是緩慢的，知道是哪個部會嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：我沒有掌握這個，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：是交通部。"],["伍次長勝園：應該不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：其中交通部有一個81億元的號誌系統，就是要幫臺鐵68個站的號誌系統更新，當時2021年被說叫做世紀大標案，那時候可能也有很多的狀態，就是有6家廠商投標，那時候有開標、招標延宕等等的部分，這些都不管，那是2021年的事情，但到現在，我想請教，次長知不知道這樣的標案現在延宕了多久？"],["伍次長勝園：我知道應該是跟西門子公司的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，原本預計什麼時候整個標案會完成？不清楚？"],["伍次長勝園：對不起，115年。"],["洪委員孟楷：115年。"],["伍次長勝園：現在要延到118年。"],["洪委員孟楷：115年延到118年，已經預計延宕兩年了，會不會在118年如期如實完成還不一定，但是現在已經延宕兩年了，所以本席才會開宗明義講到工程會在今年5月的時候發函給各部會，其中也給了交通部，就是因為你們有一個81億元的計畫延宕了20%。我想請教，到目前為止，臺鐵董事長知道這個案件……"],["杜董事長微：知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：施工單位、公務人員是不是也跟你報告為什麼會延宕那麼久？"],["杜董事長微：是，主要就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：很多原因嘛，什麼樣的原因？"],["杜董事長微：大致上的原因就是疫情，還有得標的製造商西門子對於整個合約的執行，有一些跟我們不同的看法……"],["洪委員孟楷：不同的看法？"],["杜董事長微：對，就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們是甲方，它是乙方，它有什麼不同看法？甲方要求它要做，當時我們的規格、標案等等的設計出來，乙方就要執行。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為它的不同看法反而造成我們延宕兩年。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這兩年不是只有這一個，不過剛剛講的西門子跟我們的履約情形，基本上我們是看到合約裡面的精神，但是它有另外一種看法，就是它是統包的，它認為統包應該是中間有一些可以調整，這裡面的項目我就不贅述了，但是我們現在正在積極地跟它協調，希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：積極跟它協調？"],["杜董事長微：對，希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道我們5月的時候應該是有開會、有討論，本席也去做了一些了解。我們看一下，其實主要是廠商的問題占大部分：施工人力不足，它自己承攬了之後，它的施工人力其實是不足的，所以造成對於我們這邊沒有辦法有足夠的推進；再來，設計團隊說在西班牙長期溝通不良，乙方的人已經得到我們的標，結果它的設計團隊在西班牙，居然我們要求它來做整個號誌的串聯，它沒有辦法溝通；還有第三點，它臺籍團隊跟西班牙的管理人員內部還有溝通問題；第四點，團隊是捷運系統經驗者，沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗。事情嚴重囉！我覺得這件事情，81億的號誌整個串聯系統是電子的串聯系統，並且希望提高可靠度、安全度，在2021年的時候做這個標案，那時候6家去標，因為是外商，大家都來標，結果又有招標、結標、延標、延後公告等問題，招標日期一延再延，引發異議，到最後這家廠商得標。我們都不講內部有沒有什麼樣的狀況，可是沒想到從6家廠商選出了1家，照理講應該是我們認為最合理、最可靠的廠商，結果執行兩年多過去了，反而這家廠商有長期溝通不良、內部溝通問題，還有原來它的團隊是捷運系統經驗者，跟我們臺鐵的68站電子號誌串聯的又不一樣，當初怎麼會選這樣的廠商？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個案子當初在投標的過程，我有看過……"],["洪委員孟楷：頭洗了一半。我現在請教你，頭洗了一半，能不能完成？你剛剛講2029年、118年……"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，2029年，還有5年的時間。"],["杜董事長微：是，就是剛剛……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果這個團隊持續這樣子，我不知道這算不算擺爛，但是看得出來，臺鐵內部的同仁也覺得這個廠商的問題很大。還有，次長，我都不好意思講這有沒有政風相關要調查？不然當初怎麼會到最後是得標，我們國人也期待應該把錢花在刀口上，也期待說找到一個好的廠商，但結果千挑萬選，選到一家這家廠商，結果它原來是捷運系統經驗者，沒有臺灣傳統鐵路經驗。"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，裡面講的這些問題，其實像剛剛講它的團隊，現在它應該有做一些改組了，我了解有做一些改組，也就是說，西班牙的設計團隊現在已經不要它做了，找比較熟悉的也比較好溝通，目前應該朝正面的方向在走。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在就是穿著西裝改西裝嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：對，臺鐵工程比較沒那麼容易，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我想我還是希望，這個計畫當初大家會講說世紀大標案，就是因為臺鐵從過去到現在沒有一次整合性的81億，然後全臺灣的號誌要做一個改變，如果說能夠改變、能夠一體當然好，但現在重點在於過了兩、三年之後，看到這樣的一些問題，而延宕了兩年，我們再看下一張，我就一併講，這個應該是在國發會上面的一個執行計畫，交通部洋洋灑灑，計畫、執行率，其中裡面很多計畫，你看鐵道技術研究驗證中心計畫，執行率差了12%，你看延伸相關的一些計畫，執行率都是有差百分之二、三十，甚至還有你看最後新車安全評等精進計畫，應該現在預計執行率50%，結果是0%執行，我覺得這樣子不要讓外界覺得說交通部變成是延宕部，不要讓外界覺得說交通部的執行，錢到位了，要人給人、要錢給錢，要臺鐵從局變成公司也變了，招牌也掛了，但是該做的事情要拿出來要做，安全要精進。還有剛剛80億的這個標案，本席會持續關心，已經延宕了兩年，還有裡面有沒有人謀不臧的部分，該啟動調查請也啟動調查，次長，你剛剛也講了，有滾動檢討是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是可以在這個禮拜給本席一份資料，針對這個部分，現在有做什麼樣的一個因應檢討以及預計什麼時候？2028年之前，你們現在做什麼樣的一個計畫調整去確保2028年、2029年能夠完成？"],["伍次長勝園：兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜可以，但是重點在於是說要讓我們了解說到底現在出了什麼樣的問題，如果說最嚴重的話，廠商我們除了罰款，它如果說一直不配合，我不知道，看起來它是溝通不良，它明明是乙方，但怎麼那麼囂張！還西班牙團隊！還逼我們去換設計團隊！真的感覺很奇怪。"],["伍次長勝園：我想這個跟委員報告，現在臺鐵為了這個成立一個PMO的小組，由總經理……我印象中是兩個禮拜就開始一次會，我想後續這部分，我會再督促臺鐵能夠再加速。"],["洪委員孟楷：我了解，但是81億人民的納稅錢，把它做好，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。在這邊本席希望我們交通部、臺鐵公司，剛剛洪委員要求的這個報告，同時要給我們交通委員會的委員每一個人一份，謝謝。","接下來邀請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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拆分公司,或是它把這個工廠的部分分成再做一家工廠,拆成兩家工廠,導致你們在審查的部分的時候看不出來它的到底的排放量是多少,會不會有這樣的情況,那導致你們沒有辦法收到完整的碳稅、碳費?"},{"start":188.483,"end":215.632,"text":"對,報告委員,這個其實也請以後的會計師不要用這樣的取巧的辦法啦,細節我請我們正式主席來,他們當時有討論到這個問題好,請說委員好,其實因為我們在要求他們要做盤查的時候呢,是以一個工廠作為邊界沒錯,那如果他們如果派成兩家工廠,或者是直接未來做一個產業的變動,感覺起來好像有沒有排碳,可是事實上排碳量還是很高"},{"start":216.833,"end":234.472,"text":"市長跟委員報告因為現在所有的這些工廠他其實都也有這個固定污染源的這個許可所以如果他們要去更動這一些他的這個為了碳費去更動這些數字他其實就會涉及到他的許可證的變更固定污染源許可證的變更這不是一件容易的事"},{"start":235.066,"end":260.3,"text":"好,所以大家都解釋很清楚,所以我要跟部長講的,其實不是規劃的問題,就像我剛一開始提到的,台灣本身就是因為錯誤的能源政策,所以碳排放量我個人是居高不下,最近這10年,碳排放量我相信也是慢慢沒有任何的下降的一個狀況,所以我這邊請教部長,你是不是可以來,我認為最大的問題就是全台灣的碳排放量,"},{"start":261.054,"end":264.556,"text":"臺灣的碳排放量在未來的10年或5年或10年或20年臺灣的碳排放量整體要下降到多少?"},{"start":281.565,"end":305.701,"text":"報告委員其實在這個新訂定的例如說我們內部在檢討這個國家的這個第三階段的管制目標的時候我們目前推算到2035年那其實我也看到台電的數字有大幅度的這個減少但是這個其實還是要多元綠能各方面的能源的轉型所以部長我的意思是說你們只管企業啊企業一定要去課碳費啊那可是全台灣的整體的碳排放量不一定會減少"},{"start":306.662,"end":332.378,"text":"就是因為企業當你收取很高的碳費的時候企業他們會想一些方式來自保嘛可是全台灣的整體碳排放量根本沒有變少啊例如說國際來看我們台灣是在打假球啊這要是一個很重要的問題你要定立一個目標啊就是說你在要求企業在收這些費率的時候其實台灣本身我們台灣要設定自己的一個本身的一個目標不然說那麼多碳費全台灣的碳排放量"},{"start":333.559,"end":351.773,"text":"還是居高不下,我覺得這是一個很大的問題,部長你認同嗎?認同,我們現在也正在做這個事情,重新再盤點。部長是不是說未來希望你訂定目標以後再跟所有的委員,我們所有委員來做分享好不好?可以可以可以。好,謝謝。謝謝。好,那第二個我來,結束了。好好好。好,謝謝大家齁。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:46:56 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部長你好像感覺上啦就比較沒有那麼有自信啦就是在說沒有 我很有自信所以很有自信在2030年可以到1200到1800因為其實在5、6年後其實全世界的探定價就會起來所以這個也是提醒每個企業真的要去做檢探這件事情好 因為時間到了齁後面的問題用書面質詢來取代但是不管怎麼樣講齁當然我覺得兩邊平衡是為難的可是事實上"},{"start":359.358,"end":359.538,"text":"羅智強委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:40:38 - 12:46:51","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155453","gazette":{"lineno":1187,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時40分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，原訂2025年1月就要起徵的碳費，現在環境部公告是每公噸300元價格與延後到2026年開徵，這已經是最終版本了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。不過，委員是2025年起徵，2026年交。"],["羅委員智強：對，就是2026年交嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：但是今年的費率明年5月要試申報。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常好。反正你們的碳費，當然不是你的任內，之前也是很多部分一延再延，希望這次能夠如期開始進行，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：只要委員不反對，就是如期的。"],["羅委員智強：說得好，責任推到我這邊來，部長，你有擔當，我佩服你！今年4月的時候，我有向經濟部詢問未來碳費開徵之後，台電是不是受到影響？當時經濟部回答，依據氣候變遷因應法第二十八條，徵收碳費的對象包括溫室氣體之直接、間接排放源，其中生產電力之直接排放源，得檢具提供電力消費之排放量證明文件，向中央主管機關申請扣除直接排放源之排放量。所以電力業被徵收碳費的範疇要環境部公告收費辦法後才能夠確定，我想請教一下，現在你們已經公告了，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：有協助台電精算大概要多少錢嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：大概5億左右。"],["羅委員智強：5億左右，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：我看到一個資料寫15億，為什麼有這個落差？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，它可能是沒有要提自主減量計畫的話，可能是這樣子。"],["羅委員智強：所以它按照自主減量就可以更低嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：那麼台電發電主要供用戶使用，按照台電的說明，實際電力事業排放量為盤查登錄排放量扣除外售電力排放量，這也代表使用者付費的概念，所以最終是由電力使用者來負擔碳費成本，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是我就要問，如果是這樣的話，未來電費加上碳費是只有用電大戶的工業用電會有這個問題，還是一般民生用電也是要？"],["彭部長啓明：一般民生用電因為我們是規定有幾個，例如說發電業、製造業等等，所以一般家戶是沒有受到影響的。"],["羅委員智強：那不是跟你前面講的使用者付費的概念是……就是有例外啦！民生用電是例外？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們徵收的對象是以發電業，還有製造業為主。"],["羅委員智強：發電業、製造業為主？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：一般的費率之外，還訂有優惠費率，就是A50跟B100兩種方案，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：目前原本可適用的範圍有多大？"],["彭部長啓明：可適用的範圍是？"],["羅委員智強：就是目前有提到鼓勵業者儘量減免，所以使用電力生產間接排放目標年排放如果削減率達到6%或直接排放製程達到一定標準，就可以適用A方案，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：我想要請教一下，因為外界認為事實上這個其實並沒有訂很明確的範圍。這個範圍算很明確嗎？因為這樣的作法的話，基本上有人也認為這是打假球，就會讓實際上費率訂定變成看起來是適用300元，但其實只要提出一些減量計畫，就計畫而已，那就可能是在100元、50元，那高碳洩漏產業甚至可能只有10元跟20元，有沒有這個可能性？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，穩健上路最重要的，先低後高啦！當然，我知道環保團體對這個數字的確不滿意，希望拉到跟國外一樣的水準，但是其實國外也有這樣的高碳洩漏或是整個優惠的方式，先行都是先從低開始，所以我們先走一步嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我不反對從低開始，可是我就要講下一個問題，因為到達2030年時審議會建議是多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：1,200到1,500。"],["羅委員智強：1,200到1,500？我這邊為什麼寫的資料是1,800？"],["彭部長啓明：1,800，不好意思！"],["羅委員智強：我想是我錯還是你錯？"],["彭部長啓明：40元到60元美金。"],["羅委員智強：請問你現在已經是2024年，2026年開徵，然後一開始又我們剛剛講的，就是環團所擔心的起點那麼低的狀況，那從2026年算到2030年剩幾年啦？"],["彭部長啓明：6年。"],["羅委員智強：對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員智強：我是2026年，4年而已啦！"],["彭部長啓明：4年。"],["羅委員智強：4年而已，你可以在這麼短的時間內從300元到1,800元嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是建議啦！但是我也必須說，國際的碳定價有一定的規模。"],["羅委員智強：所以人家說你打假球也不能說是假的！你現在跟我講那只是建議，意思是說你其實也沒打算做，其實沒有打算2030年前做到1,200到1,800，是這個意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望讓碳定價制度先行，然後走到總量管制的碳交易，會比較符合……"],["羅委員智強：那你的審議會就不用建議什麼2030年1,200到1,800，不是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那是審議委員會的建議嘛！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我要講的就是，那你也是跟審議委員會建議，基本上這樣講啦！部長，你好像感覺上比較沒有那麼有自信，就是在……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我很有自信。"],["羅委員智強：所以很有自信在2030年可以到1,200到1,800？"],["彭部長啓明：因為在五、六年後，其實全世界的碳定價就會起來，所以這個也是提醒每個企業真的要去做減碳這件事情。"],["羅委員智強：好，因為時間到了，後面有問題要用書面質詢來取代。但是不管怎麼樣講，當然我覺得兩邊平衡是為難的，可是實際上，因為我想部長也知道今天收碳費跟國際上整個貿易趨勢、跟我們國際的環境趨勢有很大的關聯，所以環團很多意見我覺得也要聽進去。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["羅委員智強：以上，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員發言。接下來請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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12:43:34","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155452","gazette":{"lineno":860,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時35分）謝謝主席，有請臺鐵的董事長還有運安會的主委。"],["主席：請杜微董事長及運安會林主委。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，因為時間的關係，我就直接切入正題。2020年4月10號因為屏山巷事件，也就是平交道的遮斷器沒有放水平，結果沒有訊號給司機，沒有任何預警的作用，結果造成了三節車廂出軌，直接撞上去，司機、乘客四個人受傷。為了處理這個問題，運安會做了一個調查報告，這個調查報告是2021年運安會屏山巷交通事故調查報告，因為這個調查報告出來，我們本來的平交道遮斷器沒有辦法發揮通知有障礙物入侵，沒有放平，所以臺鐵開標採購遮斷器1,424套，這1,424套耗費將近5億元，目前裝設的進度如何？"],["杜董事長微：目前我們裝上去大概近400套，總共392套。"],["黃委員國昌：392套嘛！"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["黃委員國昌：本來應該什麼時候要裝設完成？"],["杜董事長微：我們整個合約的規定應該是到明年的6月底。"],["黃委員國昌：裝設得完嗎？目前的進度有沒有delay？"],["杜董事長微：目前的進度有delay。"],["黃委員國昌：delay多久？"],["杜董事長微：delay差不多有半年左右。"],["黃委員國昌：你再回去算一下，超過一年了啦！我都幫你算完了。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["黃委員國昌：delay是一回事，現在更嚴重的事情是什麼？更嚴重的事情是沒有達到水平定位的時候，現在已經裝好的故障連連，根本沒有辦法發出警告訊號給司機。在目前已經裝好的情況之下，以彰化跟花蓮來講，最先完成的是花蓮，花蓮250套都裝完了，然後彰化要裝650套，現在只裝了102套。就花蓮的部分，故障連連啊！目前初驗過了沒有？"],["杜董事長微：還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：目前初驗還沒有過嘛！"],["杜董事長微：是，這個跟驗收比較沒有關係，就是我們裝上去的時候，我們會讓它有一個充分的測試，因為裝上去就要開始使用。"],["黃委員國昌：目前裝好的部分沒有辦法發揮預警的功能，很危險啊！等於是當初運安會所指責的，當平交道如果有車子卡著，它沒有放下來，結果竟然沒有訊號給司機員，這真的是一件很危險的事情。但我關心的事情是什麼？花蓮、彰化現在裝設了352套，發生了上百次的異常，發生了上百次的異常以後，大家就會很關心說開什麼玩笑！我們花了這麼多錢裝了這個東西，結果沒有辦法發揮它應該有的功能，現在到底該怎麼辦？我為什麼說現在到底應該要怎麼辦？我們看你們的遮斷器施工進度檢討會議紀錄，原本彰化要裝六百多套，現在才裝一百多套，要繼續裝下去的時候，彰化電務段說他們不想換，因為太爛了！彰化那邊的鄉親現在嚇得不得了，看到花蓮的情況，花蓮裝了250套，現在初驗的沒過，故障連連，到底可不可以發揮一開始花這麼多錢要保護安全這樣子的目的？針對目前平交道的遮斷器，第一個是嚴重的delay，delay歸delay，裝好的部分有沒有辦法保障安全，這才是大家最關心的事，否則的話，不會連臺鐵自己彰化電務段的同仁都不想換，這個部分董事長有沒有掌握？"],["杜董事長微：有，有部分掌握，不過剛剛委員告訴我早上10點的記者會，我才聽到有104，經理部門沒有跟我報那麼細，會後我會趕快去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：經理部門沒有跟你報這麼細喔？"],["杜董事長微：對，但是整體來講，整個遮斷機的進度都有跟我做匯報。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，delay歸delay；第二個是，為什麼會delay？你前面在裝的部分驗來驗去，我給董事長看一下你們施工進度檢討會議，我們去要到資料了以後，我們的同仁一個、一個核對，現在花蓮出現了那麼嚴重的狀況，所謂花蓮出現了那麼嚴重的狀況，是指今年1月有發生一次小客車又撞到平交道的桿子，結果真的沒有響，這件事情董事長知道嗎？"],["杜董事長微：這個事情我了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這裡、這裡，2024年1月14日。"],["杜董事長微：我了解、我了解。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這個事情，所以又停工47天。我為什麼特別把這件事情挑出來講？因為這個攸關每一個過平交道人車的安全，也攸關我們每一個鐵路行駛在軌道上面列車司機員及乘客的安全，所以絕對不能等閒視之啊！今天我們花了5億元找了一家廠商，不斷地故障，不斷地遲延，甚至花蓮裝完的今年1月有問題，搞到現在彰化段他們說如果一個平交道有3個以上的遮斷器，他們不願意再繼續裝，為什麼不願意再繼續裝？因為有裝跟沒有裝一樣，沒有辦法發揮預警的功能，繼續裝要做什麼？到時候出了事，誰要負責？","請教一下運安會的主委，因為當初的事故調查報告是你們做的，要求要這樣的改善，也是運安會說的……"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["黃委員國昌：臺鐵才編了預算做這件事。今天我講的內容，運安會有沒有掌握？"],["林主任委員信得：運安會每半年就會檢討安全改善建議的列管，有關平交道的安全維護，到現在還是在列管。"],["黃委員國昌：到現在還是在列管嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我請運安會及臺鐵攜手合作，這樣下去絕對不是辦法，因為我真的不希望哪一天出了意外了以後，不管是在花蓮、還是在彰化，因為現在裝最多的就是花蓮及彰化，爛到彰化那邊的人都不想裝了。下一次如果有事故再出現在花蓮或者是在彰化，造成無辜民眾的死傷的話，這個責任非常、非常地重。針對這件事情到底要怎麼處理，主席站起來了，我最後只有一個要求，是不是可以請董事長回去研議這件事情到底要怎麼解決以後，給所有交通委員會的委員、還有我一份書面報告，這樣可以嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是，可以。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["杜董事長微：兩週內，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：兩週內，好，可以，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。平交道的安全真的非常地重要，請臺鐵公司儘快把這個書面報告提出來，謝謝。","接下來邀請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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不過要跟委員報告一下就是有關於站票的限制除了除了這個運人以外他也是關於我們車上坐在位子上旅客的食物的感受度"},{"start":377.638,"end":377.778,"text":"好,謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:28:25 - 12:35:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155451","gazette":{"lineno":842,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時28分）主席好，有請次長、鐵道局楊局長、臺鐵的董事長。"],["主席：請次長、楊局長，還有杜董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長好，還有董事長、局長好。這次交通委員會召開臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫專題報告我覺得非常有意義，本席非常重視鐵路安全的問題，不管是高鐵還是臺鐵都是如此。我們在探討安全的同時，本席也很在乎，在安全的基礎上我們應該要能夠做到鐵路的準時、不誤點，就不誤點的這個部分本席想要談一下，在審計部的總決算報告當中有提出，2023年臺鐵的誤點次數超過了143萬次，發生率高達20%，尤其在臺北、南港、板橋、沙崙等車站，發生誤點率更高；我們新引進的EMU3000型自強號也是經常發生誤點，誤點率更是高達50%。我們來看看我們所要效法的日本這個國家，日本火車平均的誤點時間是小於1分鐘的，如果就新幹線來講，大家去日本玩，大概都有坐新幹線，新幹線平均誤點時間是不到20秒，所以相對起來，我們臺灣的火車，尤其臺鐵的誤點的情況非常嚴重。本席有很多的朋友、學生常常把搭火車當成交通工具的，就是常常會抱怨有關於誤點的問題，請問對於誤點你們有沒有什麼解決的方案？如何改善誤點的情況？"],["伍次長勝園：針對誤點，我想主要第一個就是我們設備的妥善率，剛剛提到我們過去有發現大概是車輛比較老舊，那時候老舊比較多的大概就是舊的自強號以及莒光號，現在我們引進了E500的汽車頭以後，我相信這個問題會改善很多。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以誤點是跟設備老舊有關嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：其中一個部分而已。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想這個應該不見得是跟火車設備老舊有關，這跟整個的人員管理、車子安排等等都是息息相關的，本席希望你們能夠正視這個問題，否則的話，我們其實很難跟其他國家的觀光客說我們的鐵路是準時的。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我們要講的是因為我們的火車誤點情況很嚴重，對於誤點的補償和賠償的部分，本席認為交通部和鐵路局應該要檢討相關補償措施是不是要再改進。依照你們的晚點賠償規約，如果是可歸責於臺鐵事故的話，達45分鐘以上才可以申請全額退費或者是免費搭乘；如果是不可歸責的話，則是要2個小時以上。剛剛我們所看到的有關於賠償的措施，其實蠻老舊的，是在105年訂的，是不是應該要檢討一下？未來應該要再縮短誤點的時間，譬如超過25分鐘、30分鐘就應該要賠償了，不可以延長這麼長的時間，我覺得這是不合理的。如果從強化乘客的權利保障來講的話，本席建議你們可以去研議，是不是除了退費和免費搭乘之外，對於車次誤點的賠償跟補償，或許我們可以採取一個定額的賠償方式，這可以更有效地去強化乘客的權利。"],["伍次長勝園：針對第一點，我先做一個說明，針對誤點的部分，我想我們剛剛提到的99%是臺鐵目前努力的目標，會逐年達成，至於賠償部分，是不是董事長來說明一下？"],["翁委員曉玲：沒關係，因為時間的關係，我還有下一個議題，就是關於開放站票，其實運安會在兩年前針對太魯閣事故的調查，發現站票罹難乘客的死亡率高於坐票的死亡率差不多有七倍之高，所以我也希望臺鐵還有交通部是不是也可以去研議有關於站票的措施？如果我們同意可以開放站票，對於站票乘客的生命安全也是要顧到，有沒有可能去規劃一個適當的站票站立區，或者是也可以設置一些安全的保護措施？本席認為這是有必要的，畢竟大家要考慮到運輸的便利性及安全性要同時兼顧，不能夠偏廢，如果只考慮到乘客的運輸便利性，可是卻忽略了安全性，這是非常不智的作法，尤其現在臺鐵、高鐵速度非常之快，一旦發生小小的事故的話，都會造成很嚴重的傷亡，希望你們就這個部分進行研議，是不是可以請你們在兩個月內給本席一個研議報告？"],["杜董事長微：可以，不過要跟委員報告一下，有關於站票的限制，除了運人以外，它也攸關於坐在位置上旅客服務的感受度……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，同樣的重要。"],["杜董事長微：目前臺鐵公司的作法，包括普悠瑪、太魯閣還有新型的EMU3000，因為它的運能是夠的，所以我們目前都沒有考慮要開放站票，不過委員剛剛的交代，我們會來討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，希望你們能夠研議，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員，接下來邀請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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"start":317.287,"end":317.427,"text":"好 謝謝次長 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:22:46 - 12:28:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155450","gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時22分）主席麻煩請次長。"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長好。次長，在我們嘉義縣有一個非常重要的交通基礎建設，就是民雄鐵路高架化，全長是8.92公里，總經費是173億左右的工程，未來會拆除3座陸橋、5處平交道跟1處地下道，也就是說它是可以縫合都市，促進都市發展，改善我們交通跟優化環境的大好機會。我們辦公室上週詢問得知，鐵道局已經在9月13號提報經費審議報告到交通部去審查，是不是可以承諾加速部內經費審查的進度？不然我擔心明年5月臨時軌的工程開工，到12月的主體開工工程可能會有所延遲。"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，我想行政程序的加速，這個絕對沒有問題，我們明年會把握住明年5月臨時軌的開工，還有年底主體工程的開工。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝次長，因為這個臨時軌的開工等於是一個重要的宣示，可以讓地方的民眾知道這已經開始，這是我們重視的重大交通工程。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：第二個部分就是我一直在強調，在總質詢也一直提到的，就是橋下的空間規劃，除了這個進度，因為我們其實不僅僅是在嘉義有類似這樣子的基礎建設，臺中也有，臺中的鐵路高架後，橋下的空間有很長的一段時間它的鐵籬笆基本上是沒有妥善的去利用，第一個，這個可能會造成資源浪費、市容不佳等等，是不是可以協調，確保這樣的狀況不會再發生到民雄？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，民雄的部分在規劃期間其實我們跟嘉義縣政府都有去做一些溝通，看他們對這邊有沒有希望怎麼做，我想後續越到後面的時候會越成熟，我們一樣會跟他們繼續再談，把這個促成，不要讓這個把橋下空間浪費掉的情況發生。"],["陳委員冠廷：有沒有考量再設置停車空間？我一直強調停車空間是因為我們上次有去會勘，跟交通部共同去會勘，有聽說工程會會考慮商店、文化設施或者是綠美化，但是現在對於停車空間是有很多的地方鄉親在討論，因為第一個就是航太園區完成之後會帶來新的人潮，到時候進入市區的話會沒有足夠的空間，是不是可以麻煩一併考慮？"],["伍次長勝園：我想剛剛提到的不管是停車空間還是商店街，這些我們都不排除，如我剛剛講的，大概會跟嘉義縣政府密切聯繫，共同來看怎麼規劃。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝次長，這個部分就是縣市政府跟中央政府，還是希望中央政府也可以帶領，以一種領導的作法，因為其實從北到南各個縣市可能過去都有相關的經驗，麻煩分享過去。","第二個部分是針對高速公路的路牌標示，我覺得這是統一來跟大家討論，次長，請問行駛於高速道路上的超車道是哪一道？就是最內側啦！可是現在最內側上面的標示是梅山，所以如果是要開往梅山的駕駛人，會不會因為車道標示的方式而開在最內側的超車道，造成動線堵塞，甚至因此受罰？"],["伍次長勝園：這個設計應該是說，中埔會先到，再來才是竹崎，再來才是梅山，所以一般它會慢慢的引導，過一段以後，譬如說下一個如果是變成竹崎，竹崎就會跑到最外側，用這樣的引導方式。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長謝謝，我們是假設這樣子的引導方式是有用的，但是我們聽到很多不同的民眾來說，他們常常會因為車道這樣子的標示而導致有點混淆，因為在其他國家的話通常是一個牌子上面就會有相應的車道標示，所以我希望在視覺設計上有相關的改良。","我再補充一個，國道3號在嘉義的標示裡面獨漏了阿里山的入口番路鄉，現在在我們嘉義縣有四個交流道，分別是梅山、竹崎、中埔跟水上，我們訴求是，最近我們有舉辦重大的活動，包含茶博會、柿子節等都是在此區域，所以我們想說是不是可以在國道3號這幾個交流道增設番路的告示牌指引？因為番路鄉不是只有阿里山，未來一些重要的慶典可能都會在這個地方舉辦，可是對於外地來的人，我們希望增設這樣視覺相關的指引，才會有所幫助。其實茶博會是在中埔鄉舉辦，可是未來也有可能會在其他的鄉鎮，像是我們的番路鄉，都是有可能的，還有像柿子節等等的綜合活動，隨著人次的增加，其實是有需要做這些標示的改善。所以如同我剛才提到的，從內設車道、超車道，還有我們整體標誌的設置，我希望交通部都能夠有完整的檢討，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝次長。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。接下來邀請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝你陣內應該有個目標"},{"start":26.426,"end":43.826,"text":"臺碳污染一定是要降低嘛對不對我問你一個事情齁2025年啊我們的火力發電占台灣所有的發電的量75.5%你知道2023年的年底是多少嗎80應該可以接近吧很接近啦齁很接近再高一點點81.8"},{"start":49.269,"end":75.45,"text":"2005年是75.5喔我們一直在說我們要淨零碳排要盡量去推動結果推到去年底變81.8包委員這個不一樣喔排碳的跟排燃氣的這個排碳係數差了三分之一喔啊燃氣是一個過渡的一個階段啊現在過渡會太久了啦對不對不一定你的任內我不講你會當多久你任內到時候大概就算了你上來的時候污染有多少"},{"start":76.371,"end":101.768,"text":"你離開的時候,污染有沒有降下來?我剛才說的若是最近這幾年看起來在往下在往上漲嘛,對不對?這才是現在最大的問題來,我們來看一個最近通常的新聞最近有一個知名的藝人啊王建民過世了,肺腺癌嘛我們的民醫啊出來講,雖然他講一件很重要的事情他說啊以前是以核養綠,現在是什麼?用肺去養綠嗎?"},{"start":104.534,"end":133.143,"text":"現在癌症每一年多了一萬多個新的這個患者台灣現在有兩個世界第一來 我兩個世界第一因為空氣汙染造成的EGFR的突變型的肺腺癌世界第一另外一個第一是什麼EGFR的突變的比例也是世界第一這個跟空氣汙染都有非常非常大的關係我相信你從民間來大家對你有期待"},{"start":134.5,"end":161.838,"text":"大家都希望這個污染是要降低的我要提醒大家 站在人民的角度全台灣人喔每年罹患最多的癌症就是肺癌跟肺腺癌死亡最多的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌花最多錢的癌症也是所以你怎麼看民意講的還有全國的民眾講的火電你那是民間你怎麼樣讓這個火力發電可以降低"},{"start":163.609,"end":164.91,"text":"發電是我們北京全台灣污染源最嚴重的嘛 對不對"},{"start":192.641,"end":213.949,"text":"市長發電你是從排炭量來看其實我們的這種所謂的發電的污染源在某一個地方不一樣像中部有的地方大概佔兩成一成左右那到多數是所謂交通污染源會比較多當然污染有很多種不過發電這邊的火力發電一定要盡力盡量去減少那這個我們有共識我再給你看進一步的因為今天談這個"},{"start":216.6,"end":233.417,"text":"談這個議題啊 跟你要專款專用顯然 碳費的專款專用可能有關係我們看看喔 全台灣離來致死的 肺癌跟肺腺癌朋友 外島朋友是最多的 在台灣啊就是賣寮那個燃煤那個發電廠 守在地的 賣寮還有台南市 叫齊凱的故鄉 嘉義關"},{"start":239.915,"end":253.186,"text":"剛在講你要降低這個污染的同時那如果因為污染你沒有做好那你現在又要收碳費嘛 對不對你碳費專款專用碳費裡面有沒有一部分的專款專用是會去補助人民的健康去預防他得到癌症"},{"start":254.178,"end":281.053,"text":"報告委員,這個碳費是為了要減碳的那減碳跟減空污,空污有一個空污費也在處理,已經有早就有一個空污費那其實這個是比較跟空污費比較有關聯性,那我們是減碳為主那碳跟空污這是不一樣有關聯性的東西那如果因為政府的錯誤政策,所以你說了人民的這個碳費那我的健康受影響,所以這筆費用收進來不會到去在幫這些病患上面,不會有?"},{"start":282.333,"end":304.532,"text":"這個是屬於空污費,因為空污會造成這個可能的各種的因素,但是我也必須跟委員說,造成這個癌症的這個原因有很多種,空污只是其中的一項。好,那除了健康之外,另外一個就是費用,我們看一下。健康醫護,你如果做不到健康醫護就是費用。那個部長你知道,這個可能問你比較不清楚,經濟部比較能夠回答。"},{"start":305.632,"end":311.414,"text":"古泥、錦泥、河山廠、一號機跟二號機幫台電賺了多少錢?時間不夠啦,我簡單講啦,300億對不對?那你今年經濟部去把合一的一號機已經停了二號機馬上五月份又要停了對不對?那你停完以後整個成本又增高啦這是不是又另外一個問題啦?市長你們有沒有想過這個問題?"},{"start":335.68,"end":335.7,"text":"市長"},{"start":364.082,"end":368.043,"text":"現在我一直在看你說這個對CPI的影響非常的小對不對那我現在是要提醒一下要注意那個蝴蝶效應"},{"start":393.63,"end":412.353,"text":"我用台鐵來做比擬給你聽啦對台鐵因為電價漲了之後電價漲了之後雖然它幅度漲價不多喔明年才增加2.228億你們在講說什麼什麼那些電價那些不影響可是它就影響到台鐵馬上就要漲人民的票價了這整個物價就有衝擊了"},{"start":413.194,"end":431.073,"text":"報告委員這個其實我一直針對某些的建商特別是大佬他一直喊說會漲5到10%我們一直強力的去跟那個房仲業者去談這個事情所以我也找了很多的業者談他們也告訴我沒有那麼多所以也在這個機會請所有的媒體對外說不要再用這種擴大的效益造成蝴蝶效應"},{"start":431.633,"end":431.933,"text":"謝謝張啓楷委員的發言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:27:24 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楊瓊瓔發言 邀請部長請彭部長楊委員好部長好 今天我們討論這個碳費開徵碳費開徵你們跟經濟部你們跟經濟部兩個 那請經濟部也上來你們兩個當說碳費開徵經濟部稱"},{"start":30.19,"end":50.003,"text":"這一個遺憾那現在你們協商的進度到底怎麼回 怎麼呢來 部長你先說吧委員我們跟經濟部我說說很好大家可能又不滿意阿說不好大家又見縫插針不見縫插針你就講實質的問題實質的面向因為經濟部遺憾怎麼會很好呢你們兩個是風馬牛不相對的阿在這個議題上面你們怎麼樣去把它融合在一起"},{"start":60.393,"end":80.328,"text":"這個其實我們是相互尊重他們的意見啦相互尊重,當他申表遺憾,你的看法呢?但是這個是碳費審議委員會共同的決議啦共同的決議,碳費審議會定的這個價錢請教,針對本席的提問當碳費開徵經濟部表遺憾,你環境部部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":81.607,"end":96.027,"text":"當然我們會希望說未來也多聽他們的意見,共同來聽產業的意見,其實我也聽了很多產業的意見。那經濟部,陳表宜和他繼續跟你溝通你現在的看法呢?"},{"start":97.128,"end":99.55,"text":"你現在的心態呢?你要不要再給環境部建議?"},{"start":118.423,"end":121.466,"text":"收費的對象是直接跟使用電力間接溫室氣體排放要達到多少以上的電力業"},{"start":143.467,"end":152.212,"text":"這個燃氣供應業以及製造業要課呢?2.5萬噸那你現在一般費率是1公噸多少錢?300塊是以300塊那你提出也就是符合減量指定目標的自主減量計畫者可以適用優惠嗎?是嗎?對對對可以適用優惠有兩個階段A、B兩岸嗎?A、B兩岸對不對?"},{"start":169.102,"end":198.112,"text":"在這樣的情況之下目前經濟部仍就認為是有困難的那政府是一體的必須要好好的去檢討那在這樣的一個情況之下本席要告訴你也就是高碳洩漏事業的單位在碳費公司當中最初可以想排放係數的一個折扣對不對這是全球各個國家都朝這個方向那請問你何時可以拍板"},{"start":198.812,"end":202.194,"text":"高碳洩漏的這個項目,何時可以排版?"},{"start":220.366,"end":233.474,"text":"我們現在在等那個主計處把產業關聯表11月要公告那因為它會是我們計算高碳洩漏風險的一個很重要的資料11月下個月主計處會出來那你們預計什麼時候會我們會跟經濟部就這個資料再去做溝通那預計什麼時候會公告因為你們一定有一個指標啊譬如說"},{"start":245.19,"end":256.482,"text":"這個鋼鐵製電業有沒有報告在裡面?有沒有?國際上現在高碳洩漏風險 經濟部有點頭鋼鐵跟水泥是各國都普遍認定是有高碳洩漏所以換句話說11月主計單會出來你們預計什麼時候可以宣布?"},{"start":262.148,"end":277.786,"text":"我們應該希望明年的上半年可以有把那個認定的準則做一個公告時間要加快你們經濟部跟環境部在這裡因為產業很緊張明年你現在說的是明年的上半年時間要加快"},{"start":278.967,"end":293.678,"text":"第一個時間要加快不要拖在明年中了好不好讓業者趕快能夠應對好不好這第一個第二個碳費開徵你的碳費藍圖你什麼時候要公佈要明確化來請教你看了這個圖第5次的會議審議會議當中你2026年到2030年你在這邊有說那你什麼時候要公佈你的碳費藍圖"},{"start":307.057,"end":322.139,"text":"這個是每兩年有碳費審議委員會會討論一次你告訴我你什麼時候要公佈這個事實上每兩年就要檢討一次它的成效你告訴我你近期什麼時候要公佈你連公佈都沒有你還講兩年之後的事情"},{"start":323.444,"end":327.828,"text":"報告委員其實這個委員都討論到最後一個階段2030年可能是1200到1800這個當中是不是一個協力的路徑協力的路徑到底你是不是承載你的2026年到2030年從300漲到1800噸這個是跟國際接軌的一個數字我請問"},{"start":344.881,"end":360.635,"text":"我們政府是不是如此你要明確地告訴民眾因為我們必須要以價自量這個概念從根源以價自量這個非常的重要如果你沒有給人家公佈我現在300我可以吸收"},{"start":361.756,"end":383.028,"text":"但是我如果到...我就不減碳我如果到1800我吸收不了我做價給消費者這怎麼辦這不是政府應該要做的所以我具體說明具體說明第一個也就是說你什麼時候可以讓碳費的藍圖明確化請你告訴我這一點非常的重要請告訴我"},{"start":383.448,"end":402.857,"text":"關委員這個其實這種制度不見得是一個國際上最好的制度所以我們承諾在4年內會推動總量管制的排放交易所以我給你功課因為時間的關係我給你功課請你要儘快你現在沒有要公佈碳費藍圖你沒有我請你要公佈我請你要公佈"},{"start":404.718,"end":425.376,"text":"上路不公布人家怎麼預定怎麼應對呢所以這個就是民間非常的憂心那拜託拜託碳費藍圖你一定要去公布我這個功課給你好不好這個功課一定要給你不是先上路再講沒有那回事的那未來產業要怎麼應對很重要所以最後一個功課給你"},{"start":427.718,"end":453.293,"text":"也就是我們台中中火市世界最高的碳排這個電廠而且我們台中也是製造業精密業發展最重要的重鎮也是都市企業排碳屬全國第三名我們的碳費是專款專用我要拜託部長在這邊你們在分配的時候一定要對台中一個公平的分配我們是全世界曾經剛剛我說過的這樣的一個背景"},{"start":454.053,"end":461.448,"text":"我們付出那麼多一定要好好的讓我們有更多的補助額專案的來作為我們檢探可以嗎"},{"start":464.416,"end":484.514,"text":"這個我們碳費審議會會來考量這個事情你一定要考量喔我一定會追蹤好不好那以上剛剛所說的拜託尤其是我們的碳費藍圖一定要公佈全世界沒有一個國家說上了再講這個是不負責任的一個態度嘛好不好一定要去將碳費藍圖要公佈給社會大眾瞭解好不好謝謝好謝謝楊瓊瓔委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:19:09 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這個是我們的努力的目標另外 次長今天來報告鐵道安全我有看報告內容 就是說當中沒有針對台鐵能力不足的問題檢討那你覺得台鐵的能力問題對我們目前鐵路安全的影響是什麼"},{"start":198.463,"end":219.039,"text":"我想跟委員報告臺鐵其實在上半年已經有禁用到872個量子下半年預計它在722個這樣就補充進來大概1000多個我先這樣說啦那事實上我們看到幾個狀況比如說臺鐵新志強6月北上行經花蓮秀琳"},{"start":219.879,"end":239.612,"text":"土石流導致列車出軌,監視器在事故前就拍到土石流堵住隧道口,卻因為值班人員去上廁所,未注意到。臺鐵產業工會就說,其實這有人力不足的問題。東部的公務段人員也說,東部幹線一段再段,人力荒導致修復速度趕不上損壞速度。"},{"start":241.033,"end":267.348,"text":"那另外省紀部也在這個臺鐵安全改革執行請示裡面提到就是說臺鐵公司化後面臨了2000多名人力缺口但112年鐵路特考預計招考993人錄取887人實際報告數731人有156人錄取未報到所以也顯現出外部人對臺鐵展望欣欣不足這個部分還希望我們再繼續努力好不好是以上謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":270.553,"end":270.674,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:18:06 - 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Plus這個部分來進行雨量的可能會對氣候的問題來做一個預測我想這部分這個都是我們要去做的那另外還有提到所謂的長期的部分和平到衝突這我們現在目前在進行改憲的一個評估因為確實那邊"},{"start":369.466,"end":385.784,"text":"因為既有的隧道已經有那中間又有幾個像那個和人站那些如果說改線就會牽涉到這和人站到底要怎麼處理的問題我想這部分我們大概預計在年底或一個初步的評估的報告出來"},{"start":386.325,"end":410.461,"text":"那如果後面我想順利後我們後面就開始要做進行可行性的這個規劃一直往下希望能得到一個算是比較長久的一個改善的一個方案一定要徹底提出長期就如同北回鐵路我剛剛講的民國69年到今年"},{"start":412.557,"end":412.717,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:10:48 - 12:18:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155444","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時10分）主席、各位委員。有請次長……"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有鐵道局局長……"],["主席：請楊局長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有董事長，杜微董事長。"],["主席：請杜微董事長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好！"],["伍次長勝園：委員好！"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：接下來還是相關的，這些你們都會去因應，我就不多談，因為時間的關係。","我們看剛才講的北迴鐵路崇德到和仁這一段；當然公路的部分是一件事情，蘇花安要趕快，蘇花安要趕快！這個就在蘇花安的範圍；鐵路的部分，氣候變遷加上地震的影響、颱風的影響，造成這樣的情形。次長，包括鐵道局，不能把這個責任全部放在臺鐵，我看今天這個報告，基本上都臺鐵的，鐵道局成立要肩負鐵道局的責任，既然現在有多了鐵道局，過去沒有，北迴鐵路的時代、南迴鐵路的時代沒有，所以這個部分怎麼樣去強化、去因應，我看你們的報告裡面，當然這都是現階段要做的，但是怎麼樣去做長期的，這裡面有提到長期的方案，一定要推出來，這個部分絕對是要交通部鐵道局和臺鐵公司共同去推動，這個部分，次長要不要說明一下？"],["伍次長勝園：是，謝謝委員的提醒。我想剛剛講的鐵道局的部分，其實它目前也扮演很重要的角色，譬如它前年就引進所謂檢查員的部分，檢查員的部分，針對臺鐵，以到現場的頻率更增加、深度更增加的情況去檢查它到底有沒有落實一些程序，已經檢查很多次了，有發現一些問題，那些問題一樣是列管來做，我想這個只是在我們之前的報告沒有顯示出來而已，其實他們也做了滿多事情的。","至於剛剛講的從和仁到崇德中間的這個問題，那次0403大地震之前大概都沒什麼問題，但是之後，包括剛剛提到的後面一百多次的餘震，造成整個土壤都已經鬆動，所以只要一下雨就會下來，剛剛提到我們大概擬定幾個方案，第一個當然就是短期現在馬上要做的，有可能去做一些清疏的動作，還有增設阻隔的部分；另外一個，我們也導入所謂流域管理這樣的概念，上游的農村水保署，還有林業署，以及我們公路局，進行區域聯防，因為那邊臺鐵算是最下游，這樣上游部分一有問題，我們這邊就可以及早知道；另外，利用氣象署的QPEplus這個部分來對雨量、氣候的問題做預測，我想這個部分都是我們要去做的。","另外還有所謂長期的部分，和平到崇德我們目前在進行改線的評估，那邊因為既有的隧道已經有了，中間又有幾個，像和仁站，如果現在改線，就會牽涉到和仁站到底要怎麼處理的問題，我想這個部分我們大概預計在年底會有一個初步的評估報告出來，如果後面順利的話，我們後面就開始要進行可行性的規劃，一直往下，希望能得到一個算是比較長久的改善方案。"],["鄭天財Sra 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t":"零四零三地震之後整個蘇花公路我們北圍鐵路常常因為好大雨就中斷那現在只要禁忌要落後啦落後蘇花跟北圍就會預防性關閉那這個對於我們臺東花蓮的交通嚴重的衝擊那台東的鄉親不然是他在說是不是我們災後我們可以透過努力趕快來振興這個交通觀光"},{"start":49.62,"end":49.64,"text":"黃建賓議員"},{"start":70.45,"end":80.811,"text":"我們並沒有看到總統、行政院長或副院長到臺東來勘災那不知道是臺東的山太高還是人太少我們在鄉親都這樣說是因為我們的白色所有都沒有人重視"},{"start":83.001,"end":105.78,"text":"那我想接下來我們跟交通部討論議題很多那未來很多事情在國會電檔上我們認為公開透明的來交換意見會比私下、私底下的私相收受會來得好是這樣那我想只要為了台東好哪怕是100個便當會本席都願意來參加我們也希望中央可以多多贊助我們台東我相信交通部應該不會反對吧不會不會反對"},{"start":108.142,"end":131.882,"text":"本席在這邊也提出幾點來跟交通部這邊來討論來希望全力來協助台東那第一個就是說29年沒有漲價的台鐵那台鐵董事會討論票價調漲那據聞會按照整個投資報酬率來做3到5%的這個調整那從台北到高雄以台北到高雄來看這個票價大概是現在全票是843那未來可能就會破千"},{"start":132.683,"end":133.464,"text":"臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫"},{"start":157.941,"end":158.061,"text":"另外﹗"},{"start":179.96,"end":197.545,"text":"也要特別提到就是說如果因為北迴線中斷常常會造成兩個情況一個就是臺北往臺東的旅客卡在中間臺東往臺北的旅客卡在花蓮叫天天不應叫地地不靈你向南向北都不是"},{"start":199.878,"end":219.574,"text":"不知道是不是都沒有聽到這個聲音都需要立委來反映或是民眾來強烈抗議之後才會有因應措施那這個部分本席要求未來如果這個台鐵有突發性的狀況沒有辦法正常營運的時候交通部應該立即啟動緊急的調度像是飛機的部分或者是火車、公車透過南迴這一段來"},{"start":222.956,"end":242.752,"text":"蘇導讓整個運作可以讓整個交通能夠跟順上這個部分市長是不是同意是同意我想說明一下如果以台東來講目前還有班機在飛到時候我們看它的情況如果中斷北回中斷的時候它往北的部分我想我們看班機的情況我們來協調航空公司來加班機"},{"start":243.593,"end":269.196,"text":"第二個往南的部分繼續往高雄的部分這個公路的部分大概我們的公路局我想這個都可以來配合沒有問題包括鐵路可以到這邊像上次我們甚至也協調高鐵公司我們在最後一班車後面的就是最後的那一班車再往後延時間能夠把這個台鐵的部分銜接上讓它安全回到這個臺北北部中部這樣子"},{"start":269.656,"end":287.011,"text":"好,謝謝市長,市長在這提醒,市長本人在這提醒,花東只有一條鐵公路,台九線跟火車,只要一段有中段就只能走另外一段,那這個其實對花東來講是非常非常不公平,那另外,也再次來講一下這次災後整個"},{"start":289.774,"end":316.053,"text":"臺東的災禍我們看在之後大概經費會高達5億以上那這邊也要請交通部這邊來協助那這張照片給市長跟董事長看到這是我們在會館的時候看到的土石流衝到民宅的這個照片那甚至有一段是在這個太馬里南北坑他剛好是在橋墩這個照片那邊他整個橋墩裸露那民眾非常的擔心非常擔心"},{"start":317.233,"end":330.981,"text":"本席要針對這個部分要求交通部跟台鐵做兩點第一個就是針對台馬里南北坑這個鐵橋下方的這個土石流失情況立即來做安全性的評估然後來報告然後並啟動整個"},{"start":332.142,"end":335.406,"text":"臺東縣的財政情況並不是這麼的充裕,要給予我們全力的經費的資源。以上兩點,請問交通部是不是能夠做得到?"},{"start":353.305,"end":371.937,"text":"這個應該可以如果剛提到說鐵路橋那邊土石有流失的時候我們可以派人去看一下瞭解到底他的情況是怎麼樣因為其實一個橋墩底下還有一些跡狀災是當然去看啦我想這個安全是最重要這部分我們一定可以來配合沒問題是齁其實經費部分"},{"start":374.318,"end":374.438,"text":"黃建賓委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:04:08 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12:10:38","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155443","gazette":{"lineno":746,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（12時4分）主席，我們請次長和鐵路局杜董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長還有杜微董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：次長好、董事長好。0403地震之後，整個蘇花公路、北迴鐵路常常因為豪大雨就中斷，現在只要下雨，蘇花跟北迴就會預防性關閉，這個對臺東、花蓮的交通造成嚴重衝擊。臺東鄉親本來是期待，是不是災後我們可以透過努力趕快振興交通、觀光，沒想到10月份又來一個山陀兒颱風，而且這次重創的地方是在臺東南部、南迴地區，相信次長這邊應該有收到相關的訊息。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員建賓：太麻里車站還一度被土石流淹沒，南迴公路就中斷，整個交通停擺。其實在這個過程裡面，我們並沒有看到總統、行政院長或副院長到臺東來勘災，不知道是臺東的山太高還是人太少，我們的鄉親都這樣說，是不是我們的……比較少，所以都沒人重視？接下來我們跟交通部討論的議題很多，未來很多事情在國會殿堂上，我們認為公開透明地交換意見會比私底下的私相授受來得好。我想只要為了臺東好，哪怕是一百個便當會，本席都願意參加，我們也希望中央可以多一些資源給臺東，我相信交通部應該不會反對嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：不會反對。"],["黃委員建賓：OK，本席在這邊也提出幾點跟交通部討論，希望能全力協助臺東。第一個，29年沒有漲價的臺鐵，臺鐵董事會討論票價調漲，據聞會按照整個投資報酬率做3%至5%的調整。以臺北到高雄來看，現在全票是843元，未來可能就會破千，照那個方式看來，臺東到臺北也變多了，一千……整個臺東觀光疲憊，花東也還沒有雙軌化，很多建設都還在努力的過程裡面，這對臺東很不公平，同樣的票價，卻有不同的待遇。不過這邊我很感謝委員會各位委員的支持，也謝謝臺鐵杜董事長的允諾，允諾說在完工之前不會漲價，允諾災後會視整個營運的情況來做票價調整，這邊也要次長和董事長的允諾，不過未來臺東的交通也有很多問題需要我們一起解決。","另外也要特別提到，如果因為北迴線中斷，常常會造成兩個情況，一個就是臺北往臺東的旅客卡在中間，臺東往臺北的旅客卡在花蓮，叫天天不應，叫地地不靈，向南向北都不是。不知道是不是沒有聽到這個聲音，需要立委來反映，或者是民眾強烈抗議之後，才會有因應措施？這部分本席要求，未來如果真的臺鐵有突發性狀況，沒有辦法正常營運的時候，交通部應該立即啟動緊急調度，像飛機部分，或者火車、公車，透過南迴這一段來疏導，運作上讓整個交通能夠更順暢，這個部分次長是不是同意？"],["伍次長勝園：是，同意。我想說明一下，如果以臺東來講，目前還有班機在飛，到時候我們看它的情況，如果中斷，北迴中斷的時候，往北的部分，我想看班機的情況，我們來協調航空公司加班機。","第二個，往南的部分，就是往高雄的部分，公路部分，大概公路局方面我想都可以配合，沒有問題，包括鐵路可以到這邊。像上次我們甚至也協調高鐵公司，最後那一班車再往後延時間，能夠銜接上臺鐵的部分，讓他安全回到臺北、北部、中部。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝次長，本席再次提醒，花東只有一條鐵公路，台9線和火車只要一段有中斷，就只能走另外一段，這其實對花東來講是非常非常不公平。","另外也再次講一下，這次災後，整個臺東我們勘災之後，大概經費會高達5億以上，這邊也要請交通部協助。這張照片給次長和董事長看，這是我們在會勘的時候看到的土石流衝到民宅的照片，甚至有一段是在太麻里南北坑，剛好是在橋底，造成整個橋墩裸露，民眾非常擔心。這邊本席要針對這部分要求交通部和臺鐵做到兩點，一是針對太麻里南北坑段鐵橋下方土石流失情況，立即做安全性評估，然後來報告，並啟動補強計畫。就像我們講得，這條路如果又斷了，臺東就真的獨立了。第二是針對臺東交通的建設，災後重建經費非常高，交通部要考慮一下臺東縣的財政情況並不是這麼的充裕，給我們全力的經費支援。以上兩點，請問交通部是不是能夠做得到？"],["伍次長勝園：這個應該可以，至於剛剛提到鐵路橋那邊土石有流失的情況，我們可以派員去看一下，瞭解到底它的情況是怎麼樣，其實橋墩底下還會有一些基樁在，這個當然要去看，我想安全是最重要的，這個部分我們一定可以來配合，沒有問題。"],["黃委員建賓：是，經費部分？"],["伍次長勝園：經費部分，我想我們就會儘量，就全力的來支援、支持。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝次長的允諾，謝謝次長，也謝謝臺鐵的杜董事長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員。","接下來邀請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠"},{"start":152.222,"end":171.147,"text":"等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情"},{"start":173.047,"end":197.252,"text":"那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略的行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情"},{"start":198.312,"end":222.354,"text":"部長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說你這個邊界要抓得準你不能讓人家亂申報或者是讓他逃掉之類的這個事情"},{"start":222.774,"end":237.152,"text":"這我們邊界我覺得這部分一定要來參考我們跟國際上面申報的經驗那也包括充分的跟國內的產業的業者包括專業團體來討論避免產業不公平的競爭這是我們剛剛說最重要的一個原則那我下一個下一張"},{"start":239.375,"end":266.63,"text":"再來一點是不然我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入"},{"start":268.138,"end":284.852,"text":"當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊"},{"start":286.98,"end":298.396,"text":"所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放入有放進去成為"},{"start":299.622,"end":322.769,"text":"可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面"},{"start":323.349,"end":323.51,"text":"主席"},{"start":340.717,"end":367.629,"text":"深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎"},{"start":370.059,"end":388.304,"text":"是,我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你了,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:12:32 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彭部長、產發署長有請請彭部長、楊署長牛煦好 部長午安"},{"start":12.797,"end":33.419,"text":"這本期今天質詢的主題叫做碳費不能變成贖罪券我們應該要讓這個政策能夠具體的導引所謂的減碳措施部長為什麼我們今天要搞出這麼多的這個制度的設計其實核心的目標是什麼?探聽下要符合跟國際接軌國際接軌對不對也就是說大家基於國際上共同的目標我們有一個減量的專約義務"},{"start":34.72,"end":59.259,"text":"對,我們所有的政策應該是要符合這樣子的一個目標,對不對?所以你包含碳費,有些人講碳稅,有些人講碳交易,其實都是完成這個減量專業義務的政策手段。部長應該不反對這樣的說法,對不對?沒錯。好,那我們就進到所謂的制度設計的地方。現在看起來我們是減量跟繳費的專業義務是可以脫鉤的嘛。也就是說考量產業實際上發展的一個狀況。你如果真的減量在實務上有些困難的時候,你可以用"},{"start":60.26,"end":86.596,"text":"講碳費的方式來做來等於說我也實踐了這樣子的一個責任嘛所以你等於除了碳費的這個收取之外你也提供了企業用自主減量然後加上優惠費率的這樣一個方式來做對不對這是我們現在的制度設計好我現在就要問這制度設計可能導致的一些問題因為本期請教一些學者專家也對業界做了一些了解那很多人其實是講啊很擔心啊就是說你這個優惠費率啊"},{"start":87.336,"end":111.798,"text":"真的會讓大家去做所謂的自主減量嗎?就是說,你現在比如說281家先做對不對?我們就以這281家為範圍就好。請問以目前的優惠機制,因為你現在有行業別的指定削減跟技術標竿指定削減對不對?請問有多少家,你們政府的估計啊,有多少家會去做行業別的指定削減?42%的。有多少家會去做國家認定的技術標竿的23%的指定削減?"},{"start":113.88,"end":141.348,"text":"哪些人會,因為他為了要繳比較低的碳費所以他願意去做自主減量措施,你們有沒有估這樣的數字?好,包委員喔,因為141家裡面是上...281家裡面141家是上述的公司對,多數的企業有提供一頁資訊報告所以我自己也很認真的去一個一個去看他的這個減碳的計畫其實我們必須說那前面20%家的公司他站的排在那裡80%他其實都是符合自主減量計畫的所以大多數"},{"start":142.428,"end":170.542,"text":"抓大放小都沒有問題的但是我必須說還是有一些落後的比較弱勢的企業這個部分我們有跟經濟部討論希望他們可以多幫忙以這20%很好部長足按去看這一點本席是肯定那但是我們希望在這一次的答詢聽到比如一個軍令狀比如說我這個制度上路之後我就確定這20%前面相對的大戶裡面你講前面20%281家在前面有三四十家對不對願意去做自主減量他們真的願意嗎你有多大的把握"},{"start":170.902,"end":189.618,"text":"他們最後真的是為了繳比較低的碳費,他們真的去做了自主減量,你有多大的把握可以講,他們都會做這個事?報告委員,這個我是一個族裔一個族裔的前20大的排碳源公司主動去跟他們說明,主動去拜訪,希望他們那這20大公司,你都主動說明過了嗎?都說過了他們直接回應說,那我們這樣做,有幾家?"},{"start":190.559,"end":202.551,"text":"幾乎都同意都同意好那你有沒有去算過再精算過我們講你說最大戶的你都處理好對不對那你剛剛講說後面對不對你有沒有去精算過你現在他們收要繳碳費對不對因為現在很多的問題是講我寧願繳碳費啊我也不願意搞自主減量啊"},{"start":206.155,"end":221.926,"text":"因為我要搞自主減量我的設備各方各面的成本加起來可能比繳碳費還高這就是我講的我擔心碳費最後變贖罪券我做不到減量我乾脆就繳錢了事然後最後我們還是沒有辦法達成國際減量的義務所以剛剛部長講前20大沒有問題後面的這些你有沒有做精算"},{"start":222.646,"end":249.031,"text":"他們哪些符合?然後差異在哪裡?有沒有做一個相關的分析報告?報告委員其實多數都是可以達得到的那我也必須說我的目標是穩健上路所以其實也給大家很多的彈性的空間包含的這個這個係數的折扣那我們也刻意設計的這個價格是有差距的當然我也必須說環保團體的意見希望能夠拉大這個差距有誘因但是我也必須考量到CPI的衝擊還有經濟部門的各種意見所以我們取的是一個折衝的一個結果出來"},{"start":250.871,"end":271.404,"text":"部長,因為這個題目很大,我長期來做追蹤,你就先從前20大開始,因為你講你都主案拜訪過,是不是請環境部整理一份資料,就是碳費跟它減量付出的成本比對,有沒有減要的報告,你的表格數字化的說法要,去證明這20大是可以做這個事的,可以嗎?不然他們的ESG報告寫的都很清楚。那你就協助會審一下也沒有關係。"},{"start":271.544,"end":272.184,"text":"你有沒有備案?"},{"start":289.037,"end":315.66,"text":"這個我希望部長因為還沒開始嘛我也不要都惡意推頂對不對但希望部長提醒一下環境部先做備案這個預備的方案就是要確保他還是要做減量這件事好最後一點點時間我問一下經濟部產發署欸輔導減量他其實需要不少資源對不對我要投入很多的資金我們剛剛都在談成本的問題沒有其他工具也可以應用比如說產創條例現在是吧是啊你經濟部有沒有足夠多而且足夠大額的政策資源去鼓勵他做減量夠不夠啊"},{"start":316.641,"end":344.8,"text":"跟委員報告,其實減碳的這件事是在112年我們就開始做了,我們那時候就協助企業從低碳化,包括呢...剛剛部長已經講了,就是經濟部也要一起來協助,因為我要的就是說,它實際上可能在碳費的支出跟它因應成本的一個對比,所以經濟部,你有提供哪些政策這個協助,哪些資源挹注也要一併寫進報告裡面嘛,這樣我們才能夠讓這個東西它順利上路的時候可以確實的導引減量,好不好?這一點還是要請環境部跟經濟部要一起來合作啦,好不好?"},{"start":346.561,"end":346.766,"text":"響鐘"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:06:36 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謝謝"},{"start":415.303,"end":416.047,"text":"謝謝王鴻薇委員的發言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:59:32 - 12:06:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155439","gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時59分）謝謝主席，我請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：經濟部是誰啊？"],["主席：楊署長。"],["王委員鴻薇：產發署，好。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好，署長好。我們碳費的實施影響層面非常大，產業界非常重視，環保團體非常重視，但是可能很多消費者還不知道，其實這個碳費的徵收跟廣大的消費者也有很大的影響。我們可以看一下，經濟部曾經對不同的碳費費率有一個影響表，剛才我看到賴士葆委員也有提到，比如以300元來說，GDP會減損0.48%，而我特別注意到CPI會增加0.18%，其實我覺得這個部分恐怕也是低估了！","我們再來看第2頁。我們一再說錯誤的能源政策，它的影響層面會很大，不僅僅只是台電的虧損、不僅僅只是漲電價而已，而且它對於我們要去達成減碳也有它的難度。所以原來2025減碳10%已經跳票了，必須要延後，而事實上，我們現在主要課徵的都是這些排碳大戶嘛！所以部長應該清楚，在所有排碳大戶裡面占比最多的是哪一個行業？"],["彭部長啓明：電力業、能源業。"],["王委員鴻薇：電力以及燃氣業，對不對？它的占比將近六成之多。所以現在的問題是，如果我們繼續擁抱非核家園，繼續依賴不管是天然氣也好或者是用燒煤也好，這些火力發電會使得現在台電根本無法減碳，而台電無法減碳要如何去達到你的排碳目標呢？現在最主要的問題是在於，我為什麼請我們經濟部的長官來？因為事實上如果根據你們現在課徵的費率，台電和中油都是排碳大戶、都是排碳大戶！台電可以一直跟立法院要求追加預算補貼，可是事實上有很多的民營電廠不是嗎？所以我在這邊要請教經濟部的長官，請問一下，當這個碳費實施之後，能不能保證油電價格的成本可以完全控制呢？油電價格會不會因此而提高？我剛剛講，我最關心的是我們消費者，現在油電漲價，大家就已經受不了，未來碳費實施會不會轉嫁到電價、轉嫁到油價？所以可不可以保證油電價格不會因為碳費的徵收而因此提高？可不可以？"],["楊署長志清：跟委員報告，油電價格在我們經濟部裡面會由能源署跟台電、中油這邊做很詳實的評估。"],["王委員鴻薇：還在評估中？"],["楊署長志清：碳費是一個國際的趨勢，我們也會輔導這兩個單位提出自主減量計畫，不會……"],["王委員鴻薇：它如何自主減量？它把不排碳的核電廠關掉，然後要增加火力發電廠，最近不是郭國文委員在那邊大罵卓榮泰院長、在大罵經濟部嗎？說怎麼那麼多的天然氣發電廠都放在我們臺南？要彌補這個gap，當然天然氣最快，對不對？所以請問台電如何減量呢？所以我必須講，非核家園就是我們沒辦法達成排碳減量目標的最大破口，錯誤能源政策真的影響一大堆，這個其實是現在大家比較少去注視到的。未來油電價格要不要漲？請教環境部部長，你在整個的評估裡面、對產業的影響裡面，剛才你也承認電力是最大的排放量，未來油電價格要不要漲？它要被徵收碳費，他們自行吸收嗎？自己減薪嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你說的數字15億是有問題的，如果按照目前台電的電力規劃，它是可以自主減量的，大概只要繳五億多左右而已。所以第一個，它跟過去能源價格上漲造成的波動基本上是完全不一樣，其實委員剛才提供的CPI數字，其實我們算出來也只有0.08%而已，所以並沒有像委員說的那麼高。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是來自於經濟部的計算。好，我最後一句話，我時間到了。所以環境部長可以保證，碳費實施之後，我們的油電價格不漲嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個不是我的工作，報告委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，都不是你的工作，你推到經濟部、經濟部推到能源署，所以消費者要怎樣？繼續要當「盤仔」被剝皮？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，其實這個只有五億多，還有，它是自己發電的使用、線路虧損的使用，所以基本上不會影響到每個人；而且我們也對外說其實對CPI的衝擊只有0.08%……"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，0.18%都低估了啦，0.18%都低估，你跟我講0.08%……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，你可以看一下這本如何去計算的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，我只要你保證油電價格不會因此漲價，一句話。"],["彭部長啓明：60億碳費的規模怎麼可能造成各種的漲價？"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在問你油電價格，你不要跟我顧左右而言他嘛！沒有辦法保證……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你這是政治語言，其實基本上，我們要從科學上的數字來看……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫政治語言？你才是政治語言啦，你不能保證就是不能保證！油電價格不能漲價，最後還不是虧損？虧損還是納稅人來貼補，永遠都是納稅人在付款！錯誤的能源政策造成我們納稅人一隻牛現在不知道被剝幾層皮，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員的發言。","接下來請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝稍微 慢慢邀請我們交通部五次長請五次長 鐵道局楊局長還有台鐵杜董事長杜董事長好 一件小事先提就是我們台鐵的部分因為山頭大雨可能造成一些鐵路這個"},{"start":32.833,"end":34.073,"text":"吳次長,你有沒有去平溪玩過?"},{"start":57.379,"end":73.937,"text":"平溪我很早以前去過很去過喔對去過去過那你有沒有做過那件事情有有好來楊 楊局長有沒有去平溪玩過高中的時候有沒有做過那件事情"},{"start":75.765,"end":103.385,"text":"當初應該是從三雕領直接往上走沒有,我不是講那個,我是講那個放那個東西那個沒有沒有,五次檔有過嘛,兩局檔沒有嘛董事長就不要講啦,這個比較敏感那其實這個就是一個現況啦它可能沒有符合我們的法令的規範但它已經是我們在地的一個觀光在地文化一個很重要的一個元素那我們現況就是去"},{"start":105.408,"end":117.245,"text":"法定上我們去漠視他當然在實務上我知道台鐵有去做一些安全維護的措施那其實針對這樣子長期來地方的觀光文化的一個衍生的在地的一個文化"},{"start":118.516,"end":137.296,"text":"我們有沒有想過要從法律面去給他做一個改善讓他能夠因為他唯有合法我們政府機關才能夠去針對他去做一些合法的安全措施無論是硬體或者是我們的人員的調配我們才依法有據那這部分不曉得我們次長怎麼看"},{"start":139.5,"end":154.347,"text":"從法令上來看的話剛剛提到因為大家涉及到很多管理的問題因為涉及安全的問題那這個確實可能要去深入探討因為這個地方如果這樣的開放其他可能會跟著怕因力來比照"},{"start":155.367,"end":179.014,"text":"那至於剛剛提到為什麼那時候會有因為那時候我的角色還不是在做不是在做鐵道的時候所以我要特別聲明一下那但是因為它這整個現在確實是現場有很多但是如果去我們去強制把它要求去做所謂的監理的部分我覺得又對地方的觀光可能會造成一些是阿它是一個現況"},{"start":180.114,"end":202.119,"text":"我們不負以他合法的地位但是我們也沒有想要去做強力的執法這就是現況那也導致我們沒有辦法去做更強的安全維護的措施是這樣子吧對我們也許再想看看從管理的方面看你有沒有辦法去做一些突破無論你管理怎麼樣他這個行為就是違反現在的法令"},{"start":203.159,"end":220.619,"text":"所以說後續我可能也會提出一些法案的一些修法可能針對一些非電氣化路肩可能類似的情況的觀光需求的部分去法令上適度的把它放寬那同時我們也才能夠針對我們賦予他從事這些行為的時候我們去做"},{"start":221.32,"end":247.928,"text":"我們去做更強的一些安全回復措施我想現在其實台鐵很用心那邊原則上那邊沒有出什麼事情都有專責人員在那邊做安全的提示但是我希望我們可以繼續這樣子下去我們也可以去做一些更好的改善好不好那另外這個有關閘門的部分請教一下現在就是有要在高雄有要做一個這個台鐵越台閘門的一個事辦計畫嗎是不是"},{"start":250.782,"end":261.936,"text":"有,現在大概是目前應該是這兩天岳台門的部分應該在招標,招標嘛那剛剛委員報告,我們標案有一點點延誤好,我們預計在15號結標"},{"start":265.438,"end":283.493,"text":"那這個就是單獨一個暫停的招標而已還是說有後續擴充?這是一個試辦的就單純試辦沒有後續擴充?對對後續擴充要等到這個試辦這個評估完了以後才有辦法定計畫好啦因為其實我也不知道的高雄的情況他"},{"start":283.933,"end":309.953,"text":"他可能安全性怎麼樣當然我相信我們台鐵去挑他他可能會有他的特殊性但是如果說以講到我們臺灣我們台鐵各站的一個安全常上新聞的這個頻率比較常上新聞的我們汐止新北的汐哥火車站其實他還蠻常上新聞的就是我們無論是行走的這個通道的一個寬度還是可能拍照所引發的一個視覺的一個衝擊性"},{"start":312.355,"end":315.276,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份"},{"start":341.908,"end":360.437,"text":"臺鐵的列車的型號非常的多,造成我們裝車這個確實有一些困難,但是相對起來我們新一顆火車讓他有安全性的問題,那他的列車也非常的單純,就是區間車跟區間快而已,他沒有自強或其他普用碼相對的這個其他的好次,不曉得是不是能夠"},{"start":361.698,"end":368.992,"text":"在這邊承諾我就是細刻我這段可以在將來我們臺鐵在正式咱們上路之後是一個第一波的名單裡面"},{"start":370.372,"end":395.183,"text":"各位委員報告那個細科沒有被選為示範是因為它的線型比較複雜它有彎道也有坡度那我們選擇高雄主要是因為它比較平直然後呢它是一個就是比較完善的這個月台的設備那包括高雄它已經是我們115公分月台高了"},{"start":395.703,"end":423.753,"text":"那有的車站他還沒有月台提高的話也不適合來做啦會二次施工那這個整個的這個矽科站未來要怎麼樣來設置這個月台門當然矽科站以這個安全的角度來看他應該是要排在前面那但是會不會排在第一個我是覺得應該還是要看我們事辦的一個結果來看"},{"start":424.233,"end":440.246,"text":"我想因為就是我們台鐵現在有在做安全的維護了嘛那民眾或許沒有了解到剛剛董事長剛剛講的比如說這個彎道或是說斜坡的一些問題這個其實你講我當然能夠了解他或許跟一般的月台不一樣但也是因為這些問題導致了這個"},{"start":443.645,"end":461.666,"text":"這個車站它也有增加了一些其他的危險因子導致它更危險結果就變成說我們標準的車站能夠坐月台提升安全結果我們危險的車站因為它危險所以它不能設讓我們反而沒有來提升它的安全我想這個可能到時候民眾可能會比較沒有辦法接受這一點"},{"start":462.527,"end":476.912,"text":"所以說針對一些特殊的一些車站還是要麻煩我們台鐵公司針對後續我們的安全來做一些相對應的一些作為好不好再麻煩我們的台鐵公司也麻煩我們交通部能夠幫忙協助請定以上謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:55:53 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12:03:55","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155438","gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時55分）謝謝召委，請交通部伍次長、鐵道局楊局長還有臺鐵杜董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長、楊局長還有杜董事長。"],["廖委員先翔：一件小事先提，就是臺鐵的部分，因為山陀兒帶來的大雨可能造成一些鐵路積淹水的情況，影響到列車的行駛，這可能也牽扯到臺鐵行駛的安全，排水不是只有臺鐵的事情啦，可能涉及地方政府主管的區域排水問題，就是請臺鐵公司後續配合地方政府來協助我們地方處理鐵道排水的問題，好不好？謝謝董事長。","我先請教一下伍次長，你有沒有去平溪玩過？"],["伍次長勝園：平溪我很早以前去過。"],["廖委員先翔：那你有沒有做過那件事情？"],["伍次長勝園：有。"],["廖委員先翔：楊局長有沒有去平溪玩過？"],["楊局長正君：高中的時候。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有做過那件事情？"],["楊局長正君：當初應該是從三貂嶺直接往上走。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我不是講那個，我是講放那個東西。"],["楊局長正君：那個沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：那次長有過，楊局長沒有，那董事長就不要講了，這個比較敏感。其實這個就是一個現況，它可能沒有符合我們法令的規範，但它已經是我們在地觀光、在地文化一個很重要的元素，現況就是在法令上我們去漠視它，當然在實務上，我知道臺鐵有做一些安全維護的措施。針對這樣長期衍生出來的地方觀光文化，我們有沒有想過要從法律面去做一個改善？因為唯有它合法，我們政府機關才能夠針對它去做一些合法的安全措施，無論是硬體或人員的調配才依法有據，這部分不曉得次長怎麼看？"],["伍次長勝園：從法令上來看的話，因為涉及到很多管理的問題、安全問題，確實可能要去深入探討，因為這個地方如果這樣開放，其他地方可能會跟著依例比照。至於剛剛提到為什麼那時候會有，因為那時候，我的角色還不是在做鐵道，所以我要特別聲明一下。現在確實是現場有很多，但是如果我們強制要求去做監理，我覺得對地方的觀光可能會造成一些困擾。"],["廖委員先翔：是，它是一個現況。"],["伍次長勝園：所以會變成兩難。"],["廖委員先翔：我們不賦予它合法的地位，但是我們也沒有想要去做強力的執法，這就是現況，那也導致了我們沒有辦法去做更強的安全維護措施，是這樣子吧？"],["伍次長勝園：我們也許再想看看，從管理的方面看有沒有辦法去做一些突破。"],["廖委員先翔：無論你管理怎麼樣，它這個行為就是違反現在的法令，所以後續我可能也會提出一些修法，可能針對一些非電氣化路肩類似的觀光需求的部分，在法令上予以適度的放寬，這樣我們才能夠針對這些行為去做更強的一些安全維護措施。現在其實臺鐵很用心，原則上那邊沒有出什麼事情，都有專責人員在那邊做安全提示，但是我希望可以繼續這樣子下去，我們也可以去做一些更好的改善，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["廖委員先翔：另外有關閘門的部分，我請教一下，現在是要在高雄做一個臺鐵月台閘門的試辦計畫，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：有，這兩天月台門的部分應該是在招標嘛……"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們標案有一點點延誤，預計在15日結標。"],["廖委員先翔：這就是單獨一個站體的招標，還是有後續擴充？"],["杜董事長微：這是一個試辦的。"],["廖委員先翔：就是單純試辦，沒有後續擴充？"],["杜董事長微：對，後續擴充要等到這個試辦評估完了以後，才有辦法訂計畫。"],["廖委員先翔：好啦！其實我也不知道高雄的情況可能安全性怎麼樣，當然我相信臺鐵挑它，可能有其特殊性，但如果講到臺灣臺鐵各站的安全常上新聞的頻率，比較常上新聞的是新北的汐科火車站，其實它還滿常上新聞的，無論是行走通道的寬度，還有可能是拍照所引發視覺上的衝擊性，或者實務上它確實有些危險性，所以臺鐵長年以來也在汐科火車站做一些安全改善，包括月台拓寬，這都感謝臺鐵。但是我不曉得為什麼這一次在試辦的時候挑了高雄，沒有把汐科火車站納進來？假設高雄辦成了之後，那我們汐科站可不可以是後續第一波裝設月台的一個站體？我知道在裝設閘門的時候，因為臺鐵列車的型號非常多，造成裝設這個確實有些困難，但是相對上汐科火車站有安全性的問題，而它的列車也非常單純，就是區間車和區間快而已，沒有自強或普悠瑪的其他號誌。不曉得是不是能夠在這邊承諾我，就汐科火車站，將來臺鐵的正式閘門上路之後，可以在第一波名單裡面？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，汐科沒有被選為示範是因為它的線型比較複雜，有彎道也有坡度。我們選擇高雄主要是因為它比較平直，是一個比較完善的月台設備；包括高雄已經是115公分高的月台，有的車站還沒有提高月台的話也不適合做，會二次施工。那整個汐科站未來要怎麼樣設置月台門，當然汐科站以安全的角度來看，應該要排在前面，但會不會排在第一個？我覺得應該還是要看我們試辦的結果。"],["廖委員先翔：因為臺鐵現在有做安全維護了，民眾或許沒有瞭解到董事長剛剛講的，譬如彎道或斜坡的一些問題，其實你講的我大概能夠瞭解，它或許跟一般的月台不一樣，但也是因為這些問題，就這個車站也增加了一些其他的危險因子，導致它更危險，結果就變成標準的車站能夠做月台提升安全，結果危險的車站，因為它危險所以不能設，反而沒有提升它的安全，我想到時候民眾可能會比較沒有辦法接受這一點。所以針對一些特殊的車站，還是要麻煩臺鐵公司針對後續我們的安全做相對應的一些作為，好不好？再麻煩臺鐵公司，也麻煩交通部能夠幫忙、協助緊盯。以上，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。接下來邀請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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第三個選項是我們自我的文化改革要求嘛 對不對市長好不好那我第二個我要講的是剛剛我提案裡面的一件 這個高鐵市長"},{"start":73.198,"end":98.616,"text":"臺中的高鐵站 這個流量 旅客的吞吐量是全國第二那我今天來 班班客滿 早上的班次 那節節車廂也都客滿那我現在就必須要講的是 第一個 我們既然已經有大數據知道說高鐵的臺中站是人流全國第二再來 我們又是三鐵共購"},{"start":100.077,"end":112.678,"text":"有捷運、有台鐵、有高鐵再來旁邊有國際展覽館未來會有全亞洲最大的購物觀光城Shopping中心但你看這個圖"},{"start":115.098,"end":137.35,"text":"很明顯就可以知道說第一個我們先怎麼檢討我們的交通紓解方案因為台中高鐵案之前在中修連假曾經發生過這個排隊的人龍一直圈圈就一直排到外面去那花了好幾個小時才去化掉好現在我們有紓解的方案有"},{"start":138.13,"end":140.372,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全提升計畫"},{"start":154.215,"end":175.747,"text":"是怎麼樣去做紓解的配套措施在高鐵之外的平面道路又是如何跟地方政府來討論我們碰到廉價也好或者是有重大的觀光的活動也好我們跟地方政府又是如何來談人潮疏散跟我們輸運的配套"},{"start":177.147,"end":192.8,"text":"這兩件事嘛對不對那我先請教次長以臺中的高鐵站為例喔臺中高鐵站的這個進去跟出來的這個出入口的道路範圍到底是屬高鐵公司管還是臺中市政府管"},{"start":193.752,"end":206.351,"text":"怎麼分工如果是以區域的部分是應該是臺中市政府所以現在臺中市政府他做一個轉營站的有在做規劃一個轉營站的一個交通規劃可是市長臺中市政府跟我說是搞鐵公司管"},{"start":208.642,"end":224.09,"text":"如果是整個區域有一個進出來我現在你們權責要劃分清楚嘛才能夠談嘛以如果高鐵站站區內是在高鐵站的站區內的道路"},{"start":225.312,"end":245.846,"text":"站區內是屬於高鐵公司的那那個站區外要連結出去的平面道路臺中市政府對不對可是你知道嗎我不要講重大活動也不要講廉價你請同仁去看看高鐵臺中站在只要碰到五六日"},{"start":247.162,"end":262.019,"text":"他的一樓站區內的交通跟連結外面的平面道路我跟你講擁捨啊回賭到已經到74號上去啦你知道多長嗎"},{"start":264.693,"end":279.95,"text":"問題是到現在我只是說週末而已喔還不是有重大的活動喔就已經是這樣子的湧射了我們現在難道沒有解方嗎這第一件事情第二件事情我為什麼一直提這個"},{"start":280.751,"end":308.872,"text":"我上次也質詢過我擔憂啊我現在連週末的這個永設我都沒有辦法解決了我未來還會有一個全亞洲最大的shopping中心在旁邊你告訴我說臺中市政府跟那個shopping中心他們有這個交通的配套措施可是我擔憂我沒有辦法相信因為現在就在塞了那未來怎麼辦"},{"start":310.481,"end":339.099,"text":"市長有沒有想過這件事有的確實是剛剛講台中站確實是人流真的是最多那這邊進出鐵道因為它整個外面的周遭可以看得出來你看那個就中南港公路它把它就把它竄在那邊它沒辦法再放大除非是跑到對方去一個是國道1號嘛一個是74號東張嘛對不對那旁邊的平面道路呢基本上呢都不太大條"},{"start":340.019,"end":354.71,"text":"對,都很小,對,所以這部分我想我們大概分兩個部分,第一個當然我們會來進來跟這個台中市府來做一個協調,看怎麼去改善,第二個剛剛委員也提到說,我的是不是可以適合閘道路問題,這部分我想我們也會責成我們的…"},{"start":357.291,"end":377.303,"text":"我提供給我們交通部是不是可以跟台中市政府大家來談談看第一個就國道1號的閘道這個剛剛說高工局可以來評估看看第二個我曾經邀請公路局也去考察過會勘過74號線是不是能夠再增設一個閘道第三支建台中市政府的"},{"start":378.383,"end":403.217,"text":"責任有一個計畫道路是可以延伸銜接永春東7路如果這三支建是在高鐵站外的一個中央跟地方大家可以一起合作去增加平面道路的疏解也好或者是高速公路的疏解、快速道路的疏解這是一個"},{"start":404.238,"end":404.418,"text":"總經理可以嗎?"},{"start":434.756,"end":454.043,"text":"總經理現在是週末的時候光是在站區內這個旅客要來接客的接旅客的那個你知道嗎從禮拜五、禮拜六、禮拜天幾乎通通都是塞塞塞回讀到74號上面去這個你有空可以去找個這個禮拜五的週末的時間去看一下"},{"start":462.364,"end":481.536,"text":"因為這個人潮在5、6日確實是非常的擁擠所以現在5、6日就這樣子了還沒有重大活動這個娛樂城還沒有完工現在就這樣子了所以我才會請交通部這邊是幫忙趕快要趕快想因為兩年後那個娛樂城要完工那你只有兩年的時間要找出解方而且要完工"},{"start":488.483,"end":498.252,"text":"那如果沒有在那之前找到解方而且能夠工程完工的話我敢跟你保證兩年後的高鐵附近會寸步難行"},{"start":499.85,"end":524.428,"text":"所以拜託要跟台中市政府一起來做這件事好不好來找解方好不好我們會配合交通部一起跟台中市政府來溝通高鐵公司有高鐵公司跟地方政府溝通的問題交通部請找台中市政府好好就這個區域裡面我們能做的我們中央地方一起來做好不好接下來最後的30秒剛剛提安有提到"},{"start":525.348,"end":548.748,"text":"臺中軌道規劃現在有綠線、藍線藍線還要延伸到太平那我們局線的可行也已經原則同意那我們剛剛說局線我們希望延伸到清水市長剛剛有說看起來接受到的訊息是臺中市政府願意呢延伸清水這一段的可行案要提出來我們中央會補助對不對對"},{"start":549.909,"end":560.3,"text":"那我剛剛說我們缺了一個什麼三線所以呢臺中捷運重得豐原線進入三線三層這很重要可行性評估臺中市政府送來了嗎請問一下"},{"start":563.298,"end":583.652,"text":"報告委員他們申請支付已經送過來送過來我們一定要全力支持好不好是照委員的指導對那臺鐵的山海環線剛剛我們在體驗的時候次長還有局長都有說明過了我們希望能夠儘速的請交通部全力的來支持我們拚年底好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝何欣純委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:45:52 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11:55:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155437","gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時45分）謝謝素月召委，我們請伍次長。"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：次長，在進入我的質詢之前，其實大家都很關心臺鐵公司化之後的情況，其實公司文化、公司治理的文化，跟員工環環相扣。所以我覺得這麼多委員的發言其實都是在關心，而且是提醒，我們都支持公司化，我們希望在國人的期待之下，臺鐵真的，第一個文化要改；第二個你們內部的效率，還有很多該做的事情，也不能只有著眼於要不要漲價，或是著眼於只要有我臺鐵最多的土地的優化或是活化，或者是經營，不是只有這兩個選項；第三個選項是我們自我的文化改革要求嘛，對不對？次長，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，我要講的是剛剛我提案裡面的一件，也就是高鐵的問題。次長，臺中高鐵站的流量，旅客的吞吐量是全國第二，我今天來，班班客滿，早上的一個班次，節節車廂也都客滿，我現在必須要講的是，第一個，我們既然已經有大數據知道高鐵臺中站的人流是全國第二。再來，我們又是三鐵共構，有捷運、有臺鐵、有高鐵。再來，旁邊有國際展覽館，未來會有全亞洲最大的購物觀光城、shopping中心，你看這個圖，很明顯就可以知道，第一個，我們先怎麼檢討我們的交通紓解方案，因為臺中高鐵站之前在中秋連假曾經發生過，排隊的人龍一直圈圈圈、一直排排排，排到外面去，花了好幾個小時才去化掉。現在我們有了紓解的方案，有彈性的調整方案，但是呢？在這一次的國慶日焰火施放，我們看到雲林站還是發生問題。所以這可以分兩個層面，一個層面是，高鐵公司在自己的高鐵站裡面是怎麼樣去做紓解的配套措施？在高鐵之外的平面道路又是如何跟地方政府來討論？我們碰到連假也好，或者是有重大的觀光活動也好，我們跟地方政府又是如何來談人潮疏散跟我們疏運的配套？這是兩件事，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["何委員欣純：我要先請教次長，以臺中的高鐵站為例，臺中高鐵站進去跟出來的出入口的道路範圍，到底是屬高鐵公司管，還是臺中市政府管？怎麼分工？"],["伍次長勝園：如果是以區域的部分，應該是臺中市政府，所以現在臺中市政府正在做一個轉運站的規劃，有在規劃要做一個轉運站，它有這樣一個交通的規劃。"],["何委員欣純：可是次長，臺中市政府跟我說是高鐵公司管耶！"],["伍次長勝園：如果是整個區域的第一個進出。"],["何委員欣純：你們的權責要劃分清楚，才能夠談嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：如果是高鐵站站區內，是在高鐵站站區內的道路……"],["伍次長勝園：站區內是屬於高鐵公司的。"],["何委員欣純：好，高鐵公司。但那個站區外要連結出去的平面道路，歸臺中市政府，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["何委員欣純：可是你知道嗎？我不要講重大活動，也不要講連假，你請同仁去看看，高鐵臺中站只要碰到五、六、日，它的一樓站區內的交通跟連結外面的平面道路，我跟你講，壅塞啊！甚至回堵到74號道路去了，你知道多長嗎？我只是說周末而已，還不是有重大的活動，就已經是這樣壅塞了，我們現在難道沒有解方嗎？這是第一件事情。第二件事情，我為什麼一直提這個，我上次也質詢過，因為我擔憂啊！現在連周末的壅塞都沒有辦法解決了，未來還會有一個全亞洲最大的shopping中心在旁邊耶！你告訴我說臺中市政府跟那個shopping中心他們有交通的配套措施，可是我擔憂，我沒有辦法相信，因為現在就在塞了，那未來怎麼辦？次長有沒有想過這件事？"],["伍次長勝園：有，臺中站確實是人流最多，從它的周遭可以看得出來，就是中山高速公路就把它圈在那邊，它沒辦法再放大了。"],["何委員欣純：一個是國道1號，一個是74號中彰嘛，旁邊的平面道路基本上都不太寬。"],["伍次長勝園：對，都很小，所以這部分我想大概分兩個部分，第一、當然我們會積極跟臺中市政府做一個協調，看怎麼去改善；第二、剛剛委員也提到是不是可以設匝道的問題，這部分我想我們也會責成高公局來處理一下。"],["何委員欣純：我有三支箭啦，我提供給交通部，看是不是可以跟臺中市政府來談談看，第一、就是國道1號的匝道，剛剛說高公局可以來評估看看；第二、我曾經邀請公路局會勘過，74號線是不是能夠再增設一個匝道；第三、臺中市政府的責任，有一個計畫道路是可以延伸銜接永春東七路。如果中央跟地方大家可以一起合作，在高鐵站外增加平面道路的紓解、高速公路的紓解或快速道路的紓解，這是可以解決整個區域交通的三支箭。至於高鐵站區內跟臺中市政府平面道路的銜接，如何讓交通疏散的配套措施更完善，我覺得高鐵公司也要盡一點責任，要跟臺中市政府好好的溝通，總經理，可以嗎？"],["鄭總經理光遠：是，我們一定會積極的跟臺中市政府來做溝通。"],["何委員欣純：總經理，現在是週末的時候，光是在站區內要來接客的，你知道嗎？禮拜五、禮拜六、禮拜天，幾乎都是塞、塞、塞，回堵到74號道路上面去了，你有空可以找個禮拜五去看一下。"],["鄭總經理光遠：是，因為人潮在五、六、日確實非常的擁擠。"],["何委員欣純：現在五、六、日就這樣子了，還沒有重大活動喔，這個娛樂城還沒有完工喔，現在就這樣子了，所以我才會請交通部趕快幫忙，要趕快想，因為兩年後那個娛樂城要完工，你們只有兩年的時間要找出解方而且要完工，在那之前如果不能找到解方而且完工的話，我敢跟你保證，兩年後高鐵附近會寸步難行，所以拜託要跟臺中市政府一起來做這一件事，好不好？"],["鄭總經理光遠：是，委員，我們會配合交通部一起跟臺中市政府來溝通。"],["何委員欣純：對，高鐵公司有高鐵公司要跟地方政府溝通的問題，交通部請找臺中市政府好好就這個區域裡面能做的，中央、地方一起來做，好不好？","最後的30秒，剛剛提案有提到臺中軌道規劃現在有綠線、藍線，藍線還要延伸到太平，那橘線的可行性評估也已經原則同意，我們剛剛說橘線希望延伸到清水，次長剛剛有說接受到的訊息是臺中市政府願意提出延伸到清水這一段的可行性評估案，中央會補助，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["何委員欣純：我剛剛說我們缺了山線，所以臺中捷運崇德、豐原線進入山城很重要，可行性評估臺中市政府送來了嗎？"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，他們申請經費的案子已經送過來了。"],["何委員欣純：一定要全力支持，好不好？"],["楊局長正君：是，照委員的指導。"],["何委員欣純：那臺鐵的山海環線，剛剛我們在提案的時候，次長還有局長都有說明過了，我們希望能夠儘速的請交通部全力來支持拚年底，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好，沒問題。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","接下來邀請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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ext":"不安全其他都不用說嘛你看高鐵我也看了高鐵的報告他雖然還是有一些數字還是不是很漂亮啦但是基本上你看消費者在對高鐵的準點安全舒適度他的滿意度相對是高很多的"},{"start":771.534,"end":787.011,"text":"所以台鐵公司有一個方向在但是不能拿這樣比啦這樣比台鐵公司的員工同仁一定不能接受嘛因為兩家企業從文化成立的目的通的不一樣但是給你們公司化了你們現在也要談漲價我們也知道台鐵要永續"},{"start":788.137,"end":814.611,"text":"可是這些問題之前像你說要漲幅啊要漲35.6我對這個數字我也很有意見我有意見不是說不可以漲35.6是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6你經營有效率你的成本就會降低但是如果你經營沒效率你的成本很高而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者"},{"start":816.177,"end":821.834,"text":"這個不合理所以我每次提這個我都希望你先蓋啦蓋到一個差不多啊我們這裡說啊要怎麼去"},{"start":823.601,"end":847.917,"text":"所以本席不會是說未反對或反對說不可以一定不可以漲不可以漲台鐵的豆沒有台鐵可以做啊但是要怎麼漲我認為大家應該進入很細部的大家好好來研究一下台鐵的效率達到一個程度了你要轉嫁適度轉嫁給消費者我覺得合理台鐵什麼都沒做成本很高為了不虧錢把高成本全部轉嫁這個我反對"},{"start":848.888,"end":853.36,"text":"OK 喔 抱歉 主席啦 把你耽誤太多時間好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝蔡其昌委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:31:07 - 11:45:24","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155436","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩請伍次長跟杜董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長，還有杜微董事長。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長早安。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，剛剛臨時提案我已經提過了，但我想上臺再來問你。關於捷運橘線，你也跟市政府進行溝通，我也從中央爭取了預算來補助市政府，讓橘線可以從現行市政府規劃的清泉崗國際機場延伸到清水，市政府的局處首長也初步給你一個比較正向的答案，我想請問次長，這件事情什麼時候可以定案？也就是說，臺中市政府交通局給你一個正向的答案，但是這個答案，我要等到什麼時候才可以跟清水的鄉親、海線的鄉親報告說「這個延伸線的可行性評估可以開始進行規劃了，海線有希望，捷運可以到了」？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我跟委員報告，上個禮拜我召開相關會議，是他們交通局的副局長過來，我們也跟他們提到，這一條延伸到清水有很大的民意需求，希望能夠延伸，這樣才算比較完整。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、沒錯。"],["伍次長勝園：那邊搭到清水其實短短幾公里而已……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["伍次長勝園：我們一直跟他們做這樣的建議，但這是地方事務，所以我們跟他們講：沒關係，如果這個時候要做一個研究，我們會跟他們講，其實可以做一個研究，這個可行性研究的費用，交通部會全力支持。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，這個就是你們兩位部長答應我的。"],["伍次長勝園：對，所以他們也初步跟我講：好，這部分會來爭取。我們會依照程序，撥付經費給他們。因為他們目前的可研還有一些意見在修正，原則上應該沒有問題，他們過來以後，我們就會報院……"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，我的意思是，我希望在今年的12月底之前要看到市政府的申請，橘線延伸到清水的可研送到中央來，你覺得這樣有沒有問題？"],["伍次長勝園：我們再來跟臺中市政府協調。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我希望這樣，如果市政府遲遲都沒有動作，我覺得你應該儘早跟本席回應這個問題，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是，有需要我們會再開會，沒關係，我們來協調。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間就是在走嘛……"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：可研不快一點……錢都要給市政府了，連申請這一條可研的公文都不上來，市政府在態度上跟我講想要延伸橘線，想要照我的意見延伸到清水，這不是說謊話嗎？這不是擺明著擺爛嗎？次長，我不希望浪費時間，如果今年年底中央要補助市政府的申請，錢都幫他們準備好了，他們還不做，你一定要讓本席知道，可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，OK。今天謝謝召委特別安排臺鐵公司討論安全的問題，本席認真研究，其實臺鐵在談漲價，我也跟杜董事長溝通過，服務品質跟安全是旅客對臺鐵公司的要求，如果把安全跟品質做好，要談漲價，消費者接受的程度會比較高，如果這個事情，特別是安全都沒有做好，你們要跟人家談漲價，有時候民眾的接受程度很低。","我看了一下，董事長你們提臺鐵5年安全提升方案，董事長，這應該是在你任內提的，從113年到117年，這個5年安全提升方案，是嗎？"],["杜董事長微：對，這是我們公司的政策。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我看了一下你的方案，總共5年，這5年的方案從113年開始，當然113年還沒有結束，但我把你們1月到8月現有的資料看了一下，臺鐵公司的5年提升方案，要求113年要比112年的一般行車事故及行車異常事故件數降低20%，但我看了一下，113年看起來不但不會降低，還會比112年升高。董事長，你有沒有發現？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間還沒有到，但我估算一下，因為臺鐵每個月發生事故的平均值其實都相當平均，換言之，現在已經10月了，剩下差不多3個月，我統計了一下，你們今年不但不會降低……你們的報告是今年開始要降低20%，第一年就要降低20%，但是現在來檢驗你們的報告，第一年不但不會降低，還會升高耶！董事長，你有沒有發現這個問題？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，什麼原因？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們今年可能會無法達標大概有幾個因素，第一個，事故事件的統計是綜合可控跟不可控因素，全部都在裡面，老實講，最大的原因就是今年天災比較多一點，所以我們整體成績就變成件數也往上拉；第二個也不諱言，現在老舊車輛這部分，我們努力的還不夠，所以這也是有增加；第三個，因為要建立我們公司的安全文化，所以以往在112年以前沒有列進來算是一個事故或是一個事件的情形，今年我們都會把它列進來，因為要建立正確的觀念，好好的檢討，這大概是今年可能沒有辦法達標最主要的3個原因……"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["杜董事長微：但是我們也有努力……"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["杜董事長微：今年我們的號誌系統故障下降，同仁的人為因素也下降。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，董事長，如果要這樣……你現在告訴我3個主要原因，一個是天災，另一個是車子老舊，第三個就是過去的指標太籠統，現在用嚴謹的標準，所以看起來比率就上升了。如果你們要這樣做，拜託一下，這種5年安全提升方案就重做啦，楊局長應該要監督你們嘛，這個提升方案應該是鐵道局要來監督你們，對不對？你們叫楊局長怎麼監督？你們5年改善計畫的第一年不但沒有下降，一般是目標20%，結果因為天災什麼的，所以很抱歉只下降10%；你們現在不是，現在是沒有下降還上升，而且我看起來30%以上是跑不掉了，上升30%以上都跑不掉。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：你覺得不可控的因素叫天災，那應該把天災分出來嘛，不然我做為一個立法院，我怎麼監督你們？我怎麼替人民的安全來監督你們？運安會也在這裡，他們怎麼監督啊？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們按照你們自己寫的標準都做不到，還上升？但是你現在跟我解釋是因為有很多天災，天災本來就應該要排除，你們要告訴我這個監督者，或者告訴鐵道局，天災放一邊，其他人為的放另一邊，所以鐵道局可以監督你們、立法院可以代表消費者的安全來監督你們，我要求的就這個嘛！"],["杜董事長微：是、是。"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長，這個不過分嘛！"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，這沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：至少我要看到你們提新的5年安全提升方案，你們自己寫的，第一年的出包了啊！現在談安全，立法院站在監督者的角色，我是不大能夠接受出現這個狀況。次長，今年看起來，如果到12月給你的報告，你也是看不下去啦，對不對？因為你們連自己說的都做不到嘛！"],["杜董事長微：應該是很難達標啦。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我也知道很難達標啦，所以後面這幾年，你要告訴我「114年可以達標」，我也很懷疑耶，所以這個應該，次長，應該重新要求臺鐵公司應該要好好的，既然你要做實事，你就札札實實的去做嘛，有一個KPI，有一個指標，我們可以監督你，你也可以跟同仁、大家一起來努力，把這個指標達成嘛，不要都做假的啦，就是每次都寫這種一大堆什麼改革方案、什麼方案、什麼方案，結果最後都是做假的，因為根本就做不到！","另外，你說老舊，但我看了一下今年的預算，你們要把那個──像臺鐵整體購置汰換車輛的計畫，本來113年就應該要完成了，看起來你們今年的預算要把它延到116年，對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：為什麼113年該買完、該汰換完的這些車輛，要拖到116年？為什麼？"],["杜董事長微：主要原因是因為前兩年的疫情，這個車輛製造廠商，它沒有辦法如期地把車子交給我們。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以確定是這樣子，不是我們的行政效率很差？"],["杜董事長微：不是。"],["蔡委員其昌：是交貨廠商的問題，那這個有沒有罰則？"],["杜董事長微：也是要看它真正的原因。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我覺得臺鐵公司的權益，你們要去捍衛啦，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：因為它的供應鏈，什麼都有受到影響……"],["蔡委員其昌：原本113就要購買完畢，但到現在才說要延期！主席已經站起來了，其實我對安全，你說那個鳴日號的車廂少掛一節，我今天早上聽董事長跟次長的解釋，我實在是不大能夠接受耶！次長，這個通報系統也要知道啦，少一節車廂沒掛耶！次長，這個你們至少──交通部應該對於下屬，所有從航空、陸地到海洋，從平路到軌道，重大的事情應該要通報讓部長跟次長知道嘛，這樣你們才會知道，而且更何況今天要來立法院報告，甚至題目還叫做「臺鐵的安全」耶，一節車廂沒掛，這好像是我們全家要出遊，去到目的地後回頭才發現小孩怎麼少載一個，這個邏輯就是這個樣子，這個很可怕，聽起來就很恐怖耶！","所以次長應該要早知道，這個事情交通部要充分掌握，董事長，SOP一定有很多的防呆機制，不會說只有一個同仁他看錯了，所以車廂少掛一節，車子就出去了。不可能這麼重大事情，只有一個同仁知道，我們生死一切都取決於這個同仁那一天有沒有睡飽，有沒有看清楚，不可能嘛！所以剛剛早上的回答，本席聽完後實在是替你們捏一把冷汗，還好它只是少掛，沒有造成什麼生命、財產的損失，不然你看這個是多離譜的案子，對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：少掛一個車廂，這很難想像，至少對我來講，我很難理解這個事情。時間的關係，我沒有辦法，因為我準備了很多安全問題要跟你們好好地探討，但因為已經超過太久的時間了。但我還是強調，臺鐵沒有安全就談不了其他事情，沒有安全其他都不用說了，你看高鐵，我也看了高鐵的報告，它雖然有一些數字還不是很漂亮，但是基本上，你看消費者在對高鐵的準點、安全、舒適度，它的滿意度相對是高很多的，所以臺鐵公司有一個方向在那裡，但是不能拿這樣比，這樣比，臺鐵公司的員工、同仁一定不能接受嘛，因為兩家企業從文化、成立的目的統統都不一樣。但是給你們公司化了，你們現在也要談漲價，我們也知道臺鐵要永續，可是這些問題處理之前，像你說漲幅要漲35.6%，我對這個數字也很有意見，我有意見，不是說不可以漲35.6%，而是我想知道為什麼平均一定要35.6%？你經營有效率，你的成本就會降低，但是如果你經營沒效率，你的成本很高，而成本很高要轉嫁給所有的消費者，這個不合理！","所以我每次提這個，我都希望你們先改，改到一個差不多的程度，我們再來談要如何漲價。所以本席不會說為反對而反對，說不可以，一定不可以漲，不可以漲臺鐵就倒了嘛，沒有臺鐵可以坐。但是要怎麼漲，我認為大家應該進入很細部的，大家好好來研究一下，臺鐵的效率達到一個程度了，你要轉嫁，適度轉嫁給消費者，我覺得合理。如果臺鐵什麼都沒做，成本很高，為了不虧錢，把高成本全部轉嫁，這個我反對！OK。","主席，不好意思，耽誤你太多的時間。好，謝謝。"],["杜董事長微：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。在這邊也要提醒交通部還有臺鐵公司，因為我們知道在過去幾年，就是因為臺鐵兩次重大的行車事故，才促使臺鐵公司化的一個時程，所以對臺鐵的安全問題，是大家非常重視的，所以希望臺鐵公司要加把勁，就是要上緊發條，謝謝。","接下來，我們邀請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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把這個變成是CO2是污染物但是它是一個溫室氣體不應該變成一個污染物它是不是污染物過去是有這樣定義啦但是其實在國際上應該不是污染物就是一個溫體溫室氣體溫室氣體好那現在來講我們看到你現在訂的是碳費一噸300塊對不對對但是針對國內的企業可是國際來講類似歐盟其他委員又提到CBANK"},{"start":65.25,"end":92.177,"text":"這個是對於進口的產品來講的話要課這個這個碳費啊那我們這一部分為什麼沒有辦法同時訂出來這讓國內的企業感覺感覺是我競爭已經非常不利了現在更加不利報告委員其實這個是2026年他們才正式實施現在都是事行申報所以其實還有一點時間那他預計他的細節等於是CBAN就是碳邊境調整機制他預計是明年的年終才會把細節提出來"},{"start":92.517,"end":94.158,"text":"臺灣版的CBank什麼時候可以出爐?臺灣版的CBank什麼時候可以出爐?"},{"start":108.928,"end":133.868,"text":"出爐等於是研議完了就會很快來出爐但是我們會先用進口的商品就要等於是說例如說水泥進口的水泥就要同時申報它的碳量當然是這樣子啊你現在對於水泥現在來講的話水泥就已經課碳費啦是不是來講的話實話一樣啊那國外的這個水泥也進來的國外的實話也進來的為什麼不課當然會啊當然未來會朝這個方向進行啊所以可不可以在這裡承諾2026如果你要當補充的話"},{"start":138.391,"end":147.261,"text":"我們跟歐盟同時同步同步就是我開始實施我開始實施對國內的這些產業我課碳費的同時我就對進口的產品一樣課碳費可以嗎"},{"start":153.809,"end":175.987,"text":"我會保證保障國內產業的要求這個是我一定會承諾那另外一個呢是立法或是修正的係數其實我們要貼近歐盟所以我一直在觀察歐盟還有鄰近國家其實我們也跟日本上禮拜我也跟日本的官員在討論這個事情好 既然你看到鄰近國家包括日本新加坡歐洲的瑞典瑞士芬蘭挪威都是課碳稅不是碳費為什麼你跟人家不一樣"},{"start":179.72,"end":198.994,"text":"這個是過去他們制定的但是我是接續他所以我努力把它完整政策的延續但是碳稅跟碳費是有點不一樣稅是大水庫理論就進到財政部去費是專款專用但是整個國際的精神上碳費稅是一體的所以我們基本上是就是可以說是碳稅的一體"},{"start":200.735,"end":220.509,"text":"碳費錢在你手上,五百億在你手上,碳費不在你手上,本位主義當然不要啊!委員,那個新加坡的就是碳稅,他們是專款專用,一個是專款專用,一個不是專款專用。日本呢?日本是不是?日本是地球溫暖化對策稅。對嘛,它是稅嘛,進去財政部不一樣,這個來講答案就很簡單嘛,因為你環境部中亂嘛,那你這個五百億你怎麼用?"},{"start":227.614,"end":242.242,"text":"沒有500億60億60億有人算出來500億喔那個錯的訊息錯的訊息啊那再一個錯的訊息啊說CPI會增加0.18GDP會增加0.48我有這本的書我再送給委員這裡面只有0.00幾而已"},{"start":243.983,"end":244.023,"text":"請問你請問你"},{"start":261.943,"end":279.309,"text":"有沒有這種你的message,現在碳費,有人講說你先行,主要3塊嘛,一個碳費一個碳稅,一個是碳排放的總量管制的交易,這3大塊,你現在說我碳費先行"},{"start":280.561,"end":282.882,"text":"總量管制就是碳權交易嘛!"},{"start":306.114,"end":312.021,"text":"對,總量管制的排放交易,就ETS,符合歐洲或是...那個不一樣,那個現在他們推的是自主減量的,不一樣那個叫做欺世盜名啊!"},{"start":321.751,"end":326.935,"text":"委員不能這樣說,他們是屬於自主減量的但是他們未來如果走到總量管制的碳交易,他們就有存在的價值?沒有嘛,跟你講這不一樣嘛,他做的就是針對外國外的這個碳權的買賣交易,讓你在那裡,類似在那裡這個炒股票而已,就這樣講"},{"start":348.55,"end":372.322,"text":"他們沒有炒股票,是可以買到比較公信力的生技探訣你講說可以買到,我就說這個買賣,只要有買賣就有炒作了所以我要跟你強調一個東西就是後面的總量管制的交易是非常重要的沒有這一塊,其實你能做什麼我現在正在往那個方向走什麼時候可以有成績?4年內"},{"start":374.414,"end":374.674,"text":"我相信這個"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:50:33 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11:57:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155434","gazette":{"lineno":880,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時50分）謝謝主席、各位先進。有請環境部彭部長以及經濟部署長。"],["主席：請彭部長、楊署長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。我先請教彭部長，以今天來講，現在要收碳費，但有些人就提出環境部過去都有收空污費、水污費、土污費，基本上是關於污染的，所以CO2是不是就是污染？"],["彭部長啓明：過去在環保署時代，曾經一度把CO2視為污染物，但是它是一種溫室氣體，不應該當作污染物。"],["賴委員士葆：它是不是污染物？"],["彭部長啓明：過去是有這樣的定義啦，但是它在國際上應該不是污染物。"],["賴委員士葆：就是一個溫體……"],["彭部長啓明：溫室氣體。"],["賴委員士葆：好。以現在來講，我們看到你現在訂的是碳費，一噸300塊，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["賴委員士葆：這是針對國內的企業，可是以國際來講，類似歐盟，其他委員也有提到，CBAM是針對進口的產品要課碳費，我們這部分為什麼沒有辦法同時訂出來？這讓國內的企業感覺，我競爭已經非常不利了，現在更加不利。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個是2026年他們才正式實施，現在都是試行申報，所以其實還有一點時間。至於其細節CBAM（碳邊境調整機制）預計要在明年年中才會把細節提出來，所以現在大家都是提申報，我們會貼緊歐盟的腳步走，在試行申報的部分，我會從明年開始啟動，但是這個須要跨部會的協調，我們正在做這個事情。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣版的CBAM什麼時候可以出爐？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望明年就真的來研議這個事情，因為還有時間……"],["賴委員士葆：不是研議，你要出爐啦！"],["彭部長啓明：等於是研議完了，就可以很快出爐，但是我們會先針對進口的商品，例如進口的水泥，就要同時申報它的碳含量係數。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是這樣子啊！你現在對於水泥就已經課碳費了，是不是？石化也一樣啊！國外的水泥運進來、國外的石化運進來為什麼不課？"],["彭部長啓明：當然會啊！未來當然會朝著這個方向進行。"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以在這裡承諾，2026如果你還在當部長的話，我們跟歐盟同時同步，就是開始對國內這些產業課碳費的同時，也對進口產品一樣課碳費，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我會保證、保障國內產業的要求，這是我一定會承諾的。另外一個是，立法或是修正的係數，我們要貼近歐盟，所以我一直在觀察歐盟還有鄰近國家。其實上禮拜我也跟日本的官員在討論這個事情，他們也是同步在做。"],["賴委員士葆：好，既然你提到鄰近國家，包括日本、新加坡、歐洲的瑞典、瑞士、芬蘭、挪威都是課碳稅而不是碳費，為什麼你跟人家不一樣？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是過去他們制定的，我是接續它，所以我努力把它完成，是政策的延續。但是碳稅跟碳費是有一點不一樣……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不知道為什麼要課碳稅？"],["彭部長啓明：「稅」是大水庫理論，就是進到財政部去；「費」是專款專用，但是整個國際的精神上，碳費、碳稅是一體的，所以我們基本上就可以說是碳稅的一種。"],["賴委員士葆：用白話文講啦！碳費是錢在你手上，有500億在你手上，碳稅不在你手上，用本位主義來看，當然一樣啊！"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣！報告委員，新加坡的就是碳稅，他們是專款專用，一個是專款專用，一個不是專款專用。"],["賴委員士葆：日本呢？日本是不是……"],["彭部長啓明：日本是地球溫暖化對策稅。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！它是稅嘛！和錢進財政部不一樣，這樣講答案就很簡單嘛！因為你環境部這樣會中斷嘛！那這500億你會怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有500億，是60億。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：60億。"],["賴委員士葆：有人算起來是500億喔！"],["彭部長啓明：那個是錯的訊息。"],["賴委員士葆：是錯的訊息？好。那再一個錯的訊息，說CPI會增加0.18%，GDP會增加0.4%，是這樣子嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我有這本書，會再送給委員。"],["賴委員士葆：好。"],["彭部長啓明：這裡面只有零點零零幾而已。"],["賴委員士葆：你講的話我就不太相信，零點零零幾等於你那邊是1啊！這樣來講就等於都沒有課到！"],["彭部長啓明：所以委員可以看裡面詳細的費率，如果我們按照上市櫃公司，它的ESG報告都符合減碳企圖心的話，都可以享到優惠費率，其實那個衝擊力……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你有沒有這種mindset？現在是碳費，有人講說你要先行，主要有三塊：一個碳費、一個碳稅、一個是碳排放總量管制的交易，這三大塊。你現在說碳費先行是不是？後面當然有後行的啊！後行的是不是碳稅？或者是交易……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳費（稅）是一起的，所以我們認為碳費（稅）就是先行。"],["賴委員士葆：所以徵了碳費就沒有稅了？以後也不會再改變成稅？"],["彭部長啓明：碳費（稅）就是一起的，這是我們內閣裡面很大的一個共識。未來我也對外承諾，我4年內會走到總量管制的排放交易，就是ETS，所以這個部分我們朝那個方向去做。"],["賴委員士葆：總量管制就是碳權交易嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，總量管制的排放交易（ETS），符合歐洲或是……"],["賴委員士葆：金管會的碳權交易是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那個不一樣，他們現在推的是自主減量。"],["賴委員士葆：那個叫做欺世盜名啦！這裡面來講，國內的企業都不能用，也不能買、不能賣，那是針對對國外的。"],["彭部長啓明：委員不能這樣說，他們是屬於自主減量的。"],["賴委員士葆：不是這樣子嗎？我在財委會我很清楚啊！這根本就是騙人的。"],["彭部長啓明：但是他們未來如果走到總量管制的碳交易，他們就有存在的價值。"],["賴委員士葆：我就跟你講，這個不一樣啦！它做的就是針對國外碳權的買賣交易，類似在那裡炒股票而已，講起來就是有這樣而已！"],["彭部長啓明：他們沒有炒股票，而是可以買到比較具有公信力的……"],["賴委員士葆：同樣意思啦！你講說可以買到，我就說這個買賣，只要有買賣就有炒作，所以我要跟你強調一個東西，後面總量管制的交易是非常重要的，沒有這一塊，其實再怎麼做都只是做一半而已。"],["彭部長啓明：我現在正在往那個方向走。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以有成績？"],["彭部長啓明：4年內。報告委員，這個都需要時間的喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你部長就當不了4年，還說成這樣！"],["彭部長啓明：委員不能這樣說，這個制度是需要長期去建立的。"],["賴委員士葆：好大的口氣！碳權交易從10年前講到現在，還沒有一個比較像樣的，像金管會那個就是騙人的！好，謝謝！"],["主席：我相信這個政策是延續的。","我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有兩案，請一併宣讀。","臨時提案：","一、","案由：根據氣候變遷因應法第32條規定，中央主管機關應成立溫室氣體管理基金，該法第33條規定，溫室氣體管理基金係專供溫室氣體減量和氣候調適用途。然該基金的核定使用標準及監督機制為何？並未明確說明。","爰提案要求環境部，每一年應向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交一份「溫室氣體管理基金」執行暨改善計畫書面報告，以維護溫室氣體基金使用的正當性及執行績效。","提案人：蘇清泉　　廖偉翔　　陳菁徽","二、","有鑑於我國碳費定價已經定案，將於明年開始申報碳費，後年繳費，我國業者青年將開始增加成本，惟目前我國碳邊境調整機制（台版CBAM）卻仍尚未定案，對國內業者造成不公平競爭條件。爰要求環境部應立即協調相關機關，儘速確定台版CBAM方案，於國內啟動碳費徵收時，同步推動台版CBAM，並請環境部於二個月內將本案推動辦理情形函復予本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會。","提案人：邱鎮軍　　廖偉翔　　王育敏"],["主席：請問第1案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["蔡署長玲儀：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，無異議就照案通過。","第2案呢？行政單位有沒有意見？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，第2案就是有關臺版CBAM，因為剛剛部長的說明就是我們一定要跟歐盟一樣，要先從申報開始，所以我們建議在文字上面，「儘速確定台版CBAM方案……」建議修改為「研議台版CBAM方案，於國內啟動碳費徵收時，同步規劃台版CBAM申報制度」，後面的部分一樣。"],["主席：委員有沒有意見？"],["邱委員鎮軍：主席，其他的文字我沒什麼意見，就是那個「同步『推動』」，你們說要改成「規劃」我覺得……這樣有差嗎？我沒有說要同步實施啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：推動跟規劃得差不多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，差不多嘛，對不對？規劃不知道要搞到什麼時候，好不好？用「推動」還是有一點空間給你，好不好？"],["主席：那就照剛剛委員所提的文字修正通過喔？好，第2案就照剛剛的文字修正通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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- 11:50:28","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155432","gazette":{"lineno":866,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時44分）主席、各位委員，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。氣候變遷因應法第一條訂得很清楚，落實世代正義、環境正義及公正轉型，這個部分是我們原住民族在臺灣一直守護了我們的森林，所以我們善盡保護臺灣環境的責任。我們看氣候變遷因應法的第三條，碳匯：指將二氧化碳或其他溫室氣體自排放源或大氣中持續移除後，吸收或儲存之樹木、森林、土壤、海洋、地層、設施或場所。所以我們不要忘了這個部分。然後第十一款也提到什麼叫公正轉型，這裡面也特別提到原住民族的穩定轉型，當初氣候變遷因應法本席也有提出草案，當然有幾條條文是有通過，但是也有沒有通過的部分，這是我們未來要繼續努力的地方。氣候變遷因應法第五條，政府應秉持減緩與調適並重之原則，確保國土資源永續利用，這裡面也特別要兼顧原住民族的權益。氣候變遷因應法第五條也特別提到推動自然碳匯，政府應與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳匯。所以在這樣的前提之下，我們看這一次的碳費要收……你們估算有60億的碳費收入，對不對？60億，這樣的一個碳費收入，我剛唸了這麼多原住民族的條款及原住民族對整個碳費的貢獻，但是這個基金會用到原住民族嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個後年年中才會正式的收到，所以我們預計大概是明年會開始組成委員會來討論這個基金的用途。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，基金的用途訂得很清楚，當初本席有提案，但是沒有被接受，被輾壓，表決沒有通過，所以這裡面完全沒有原住民族的部分。但也不是不能做，還是可以，畢竟這裡面補助給地方政府，地方政府要怎麼去用，怎麼樣在你們相關的這些規定裡面去支應，可以往這個方向去努力嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，委員，第三條就是補助中央目的事業主管機關執行溫室氣體減量工作的事項，至於森林碳匯的部分可以透過這三項，我們來補助給原民會處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個……"],["彭部長啓明：如果有這個項目的話，應該……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然有這個項目，我剛剛不是講了很多嗎？相關的條文也都有提到原住民族，包括第十七條都有相關的規定，所以這部分要請環境部……事實上農業部講得很清楚，原住民族守護山林，而現在環境部的方向就是怎麼樣去收這個錢，對於這個收的錢當然各有各的論點，到底這60億算不算多？當然，這是第一次，也經過相關的程序辦理，但整個原住民族對碳費的貢獻是不可抹滅的，所以這個部分要請環境部在訂定比較細的相關規定時，就誠如剛剛部長所講的，地方政府在執行的時候要怎麼把它列入考量，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員天財發言。","接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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動的政策他必須回歸到氣候變遷因應法來一起推動而不是你自己環境部啊林業署他在推動國產財"},{"start":247.136,"end":267.567,"text":"我們的竹林更新還有竹產業你知道這些政策嗎?你不知道你可能也不知道森林會根據不同的樹種有不同的碳吸存能力吧你知道竹林是屬於短年生的同時你知道竹林它的碳吸存能力是非常強的所以在產業面也都需要國產材跟竹材"},{"start":273.99,"end":290.983,"text":"環境部你作為氣候變遷因應主管的機關,你在淨零碳排的政策上面,難道不應該在政策上面作為統合嗎?部長。報告委員這個是農業部在主責,他也提出發法協議。我知道啦,你是主責,那你不應該和鄉聯繫這些嗎?所以,"},{"start":294.605,"end":319.313,"text":"契簽法第33條基金的用途根本就沒有用在禁法補償上面嘛所以我在這裡要要求你經營談判還有碳會的更像政策請環境部你要承擔起這個責任你在一個月之內要競速邀請人民會、農業部、相關部會提出將碳會最大化的執行政策可不可以"},{"start":320.234,"end":320.775,"text":"謝謝高金素梅"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:38:50 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然後講這件事情"},{"start":84.443,"end":109.655,"text":"那從打電話到現在一個多月了想請教一下部長關於醫療院所檢探的這方面的事情有做了哪一些的改變有哪一些行政措施報告委員謝謝讓我還原真相其實是7月底的時候我們跟衛福部合辦了一個活動那非常好就綠色醫療這是台灣第一次環境部跟衛福部合辦一個活動然後總統看到新聞之後其實總統跟院長都有打電話給我說這個活動不錯"},{"start":112.216,"end":139.175,"text":"但是後面的這個給醫院的資金在哪裡所以其實也謝謝總統跟院長關心這個事情讓我們有一個動力所以其實第一個是國發基金所以他們我們就協調了這個國發基金是不是有一個100億能夠來做這種幫助這種能減碳的工作的投資那第二個呢就是我們找了金管會找這個保險基金能夠來合作因為這個EXCO其實要蠻多錢的過去我們政府都是用補助的形式從馬政府時代就是用補助可是這個補助的量"},{"start":139.755,"end":140.055,"text":"目前的確是有成果"},{"start":167.62,"end":186.037,"text":"那所以總統跟院長關心之後就去想辦法說那個錢從哪裡來要怎麼樣去協助我們醫院來做這個減碳是不是對沒錯沒錯這就是你剛剛回答大概就是我想要問你的三個問題就是第一個環境部會採取哪一些措施跟衛福部合作協助醫院減碳那我們有投入多少資源跟經費呢"},{"start":186.878,"end":187.078,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":202.291,"end":222.897,"text":"這個有沒有規劃將碳費的部分收入協助醫院執行1月10日的改革目前其實因為衛福部的預算是我們的好幾十倍所以這其實這個部分你說哪一方面的預算是你的好幾十倍整體預算所以基本上這個邱部長跟我說碳費有沒有辦法給他其實我是說碳費我們現在才目前規劃才60億恐怕有點困難"},{"start":223.797,"end":242.304,"text":"但是他的預算這麼多也不是說都拿來做這一個減碳的或是ESG的改革嘛所以你當初這樣回答的話那邱部長當然覺得說那你這個給我們一些資源投入這個協助醫院來改善這個ESG他的用意應該是這樣子啦不是在比較說兩個部會的這個預算誰多誰寡我們現在在講說是"},{"start":246.225,"end":248.969,"text":"其實如果我用保險的資金來幫忙的話其實不用花到醫院的錢這是一個比較市場化的一個做法"},{"start":265.509,"end":288.328,"text":"那就是第三個那有跟金管會討論過了嗎?有,討論過了我們跟主委還有他們保險公司我們都密集的在開會但是我也跟委員坦承還是遇到一些小問題需要政府的擔保等等我們正在處理這個細節那金管會的態度勒?金管會是樂觀其成那他有沒有協助你找一些保險業者過來談?有那個彭主委非常的這個認真熱心幫我們處理這個事情"},{"start":289.949,"end":303.142,"text":"那我是希望說當然希望藉由民間的資金來做這個深度節能就是你剛才講的ESCO這部分因為民間資金投進來那其實政府也不用付這麼多的錢進去有一些是保險業他們先帶電然後節能之後這個錢我們再還回去沒錯"},{"start":307.106,"end":335.95,"text":"那現在我看大家也很關心那個CBAN的問題那我就直接先問了這個你有提到說這個產品在我國繳交的碳費確認已經可以支付這個CBAN的碳價了那請問一下有這個官方的書面文字嗎還是只有口頭他們書面文字有包含了碳費、碳稅都可以只要ETS都可以這有確定嗎確定確定那我們不覺得這個書面不完整我當面的問了非常高層的官員獲得非常肯定的答案"},{"start":337.01,"end":355.604,"text":"這就確認了,因為就是你那口頭問是一部分,我是說有這個書面的,確定就是說我們徵收了這個碳費,也可以支付這個西邊的這個碳稅就對了。對,其實第一個是說這個未來這個是碳定價外交的一環,我們台灣會主動要納進去,所以我也派駐有人人在歐盟。"},{"start":356.024,"end":356.364,"text":"這個就是說齁"},{"start":385.872,"end":386.172,"text":"李坤城委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:31:45 - 11:38:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155428","gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時31分）謝謝主席，我們請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。預計2026年要開徵碳費，碳費徵收對象大概就是年排放量2.5萬公噸二氧化碳當量，徵收對象大概超過500廠，約1.55億噸碳排，占全國總排放量的54%，這是剛開始要徵收的對象跟總排放量。徵收的對象剛開始並沒有包含醫療院所，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就來請教一下部長，根據臺灣永續能源研究基金會的資料顯示，臺灣的醫療照護碳足跡占全國比例高於全球平均，是4.6%，全世界是4.4%。臺灣醫院用電量在非生產事業性事業是排名第一，占比是16.9%，比車站跟軌道等運輸合計的13.54%還要高。所以總統才會相當關心醫療院所減碳的一些事情，也曾經打電話給部長講這件事情。從打電話到現在一個多月了，想請教一下部長，關於醫療院所減碳這方面的事情有做了哪一些的改變？有哪些行政措施？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，謝謝讓我還原真相。其實是7月底的時候我們跟衛福部合辦一個活動，非常好，就是綠色醫療，這是臺灣第一次環境部跟衛福部合辦活動，總統看到新聞之後，其實總統跟院長都有打電話給我說這個活動不錯，但是後面給醫院的資金在哪裡？所以也謝謝總統跟院長關心這個事情，讓我們有一個動力。第一個是國發基金，所以我們就協調了國發基金，是不是有一個100億能夠來幫助這種節能減碳工作的投資？第二個就是我們找了金管會，找了保險基金，能夠來合作，因為ESCO其實要滿多錢的，過去我們政府都是用補助的形式，從馬政府時代就是用補助，可是這個補助的量，可能過去沒有辦法很快達成我們減碳的目標。所以我們目前的確跟經濟部合組一個深度節能的團隊，預計大概再一、兩個月應該會公布一些細則，但我們現在還是遇到一些小問題，例如說，保險公司的錢長期投資醫院ESCO，是不是可以保障它可以穩定持續20年？所以這個部分我們還在協調。目前的成果應該在近期就會公布，而目前的確是有成果。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以總統跟院長關心之後，就去想辦法知道錢要從哪裡來，要怎麼樣去協助醫院來做減碳是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：你剛剛回答的大概就是我想要問你的三個問題，第一個，環境部會採取哪些措施跟衛福部合作，協助醫院減碳？我們有投入多少資源跟經費呢？還是都沒有，就是完全靠你剛剛講的國發基金100億，但那也還沒有確定……"],["彭部長啓明：有，現在正在申請當中。"],["李委員坤城：國發會有同意了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：口頭上同意。"],["李委員坤城：口頭上同意？那就恭喜你！第二個是有沒有規劃將碳費的部分收入協助醫院執行ESG的改革？"],["彭部長啓明：因為衛福部的預算是我們的好幾十倍，所以這個部分……"],["李委員坤城：你說哪一方面的預算是你們的好幾十倍？"],["彭部長啓明：整體預算。所以邱部長跟我說碳費有沒有辦法給他，我是說我們的碳費目前才規劃60億，恐怕有點困難！"],["李委員坤城：但是它的預算這麼多，也不是都拿來做減碳或是ESG的改革。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以你當初這樣回答，邱部長當然覺得給他們一些資源投入協助醫院改善ESG，他的用意應該是這樣子啦！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["李委員坤城：不是在比較兩個部會的預算誰多誰寡。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：我們現在講的是投入減碳的費用到底有多少，當然因為環境部是負責這一方面，但還是沒有規劃收到碳費之後要協助醫院做ESG的改革？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，如果用保險的資金來幫忙的話，其實不用花到醫院的錢，這是一個比較市場化的作法。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就是第三個。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["李委員坤城：那有跟金管會討論過了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，討論過了。"],["李委員坤城：給予誘因。"],["彭部長啓明：我們跟主委和保險公司都密集地在開會，但是我也跟委員坦承還是遇到一些小問題，需要政府的擔保等等，我們正在處理相關細節。"],["李委員坤城：好，金管會的態度呢？"],["彭部長啓明：金管會是樂觀其成。"],["李委員坤城：他們有沒有協助你找一些保險業者過來談？"],["彭部長啓明：有，彭主委非常認真也熱心地幫我們處理這個事情。"],["李委員坤城：好，我希望藉由民間的資金來做深度節能，就是你剛才講的ESCO這部分，因為民間資金投進來，政府也不用付這麼多錢進去，另外有一些是保險業先代墊，然後節能之後，這個錢我們再還回去。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：剛才我看大家也很關心CBAM的問題，我就直接先問，你有提到產品在我國繳交的碳費確認已經可以支付CBAM的碳價，請問一下有官方的書面文字嗎？還是只有口頭？"],["彭部長啓明：他們的書面文字有包含碳費、碳稅都可以，只要ETS都可以。"],["李委員坤城：這有確定嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：確定、確定，我們覺得這個書面不完整，於是我當面問了非常高層的官員，獲得非常肯定的答案。"],["李委員坤城：所以就是有確認。你口頭問是一部分，但我是問有這個書面確定我們徵收了碳費也可以支付抵CBAM的碳稅就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：對，第一個，未來這是碳定價外交的一環，我們臺灣會主動要納進去，所以我們也有派人駐在歐盟。第二個是它的細節大概明年年中才會出來。"],["李委員坤城：好，大家也很關心臺版的CBAM。"],["彭部長啓明：關於臺版的CBAM，第一個，這個制度要設計，我們希望等到歐盟明確化之後有一個國際的準則，因為現在只有歐盟有在提這個事情，細節還沒出來，英國是2027年上路，我們希望是先申報，讓進口業者有一點壓力，他們自己必須要去減碳，有碳足跡的資料進來，我們要保障我們國內的產業。"],["李委員坤城：好，這個就是有來有往，人家有做，我們當然也要做，保護臺灣的產業。最後一個問題請教，歐盟的碳稅徵收對象是進口商，臺灣的碳費徵收對象是國內業者，未來臺灣的碳費徵收會不會涵蓋進口的貨品？"],["彭部長啓明：主要還是隨我們碳費徵收對象所對應的進口商，進口業者就要收。"],["李委員坤城：所以會收就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["李委員坤城：好。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。我在這邊說明，希望等一下質詢的委員時間可以稍微控制一下，因為今天登記發言真的非常踴躍，後面還有很多委員要發言。","接下來請高金素梅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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這個碳費的制度從好幾年前討論我們過去討論到現在為止其實它是一個非常有漏洞的不好的制度我必須說我從民間來 碳交易才是一個比較好的制度但是我必須說我延續政策我還是把它完成了但是我們未來會走到總量管制的碳交易這些你說的問題就可以減少很多你有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎"},{"start":223.874,"end":245.844,"text":"我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套既然你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了"},{"start":249.346,"end":257.592,"text":"光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人想說怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個"},{"start":275.606,"end":281.85,"text":"所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓,"},{"start":297.419,"end":307.407,"text":"當然這個都有留待空間,最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的,這就是我們目前為止,所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎?這是傳統產業。"},{"start":310.919,"end":323.647,"text":"包委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來"},{"start":331.092,"end":348.601,"text":"所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是"},{"start":349.201,"end":349.561,"text":"我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有"},{"start":376.289,"end":384.655,"text":"請委員放心,我們CPI的算法跟你的數字不大一樣你這個細節有沒有嗎?公布到這部分,我也看了這個細節你還是沒有辦法解除我這樣的一個疑慮啊還是沒有辦法啊,包括剛剛委員在問你所有的問題的時候部長,對不起,你雖然認為說你做得還不錯,對你的表現還蠻滿意但是呢,我們還是覺得對很多你剛剛所成立的專業委員會專業的這個部分裡面,你都還是告訴我那是未來式,我們要的是從現在"},{"start":403.769,"end":428.639,"text":"報告委員,西貝明年年中才會開始生效,然後我們是預先的要探深報,比照歐盟的敬禮,我沒有落後,我是照那個方式在進行的。對,我剛剛只問你說,剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分,包括我說你對於我們地方,高溫暖的地方,你的整個分配的比例等等之類的,我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後,我們可以進一步的了解,而不是等到明年,所以我們大家覺得說,"},{"start":429.099,"end":429.499,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員的發言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:23:59 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data來看我想知道說從一開始有手機回收你們來統計這個比率至今可是網站也沒有然後這個raw data也沒有所以其實不知道你們這個12%是怎麼計算出來的我們這個手機回收月是由我們各業者提供另外就是我們在經濟隊回收的這個數量來加起來的"},{"start":142.187,"end":150.364,"text":"我有稍微查了一下,其實回收的比例這麼低,大概因為管道很麻煩,誘因不足,還有其實民眾很擔心自己的個資"},{"start":151.874,"end":178.587,"text":"因此我看了一下國外的做法在這邊也提供給部長因為你們是AI內閣你們更應該要創新有創意所以歐美的經驗是他們常常會在手機的訊息通知民眾回來回收還有一些回收的管道另外他們的廠商是會開立手機刪除的證明等等讓他們安心還有一些足夠的誘因下一張給您看一下這個"},{"start":181.488,"end":197.655,"text":"手機回收月等等活動內容其實是很豐富的可是呢你知道你們缺了最大的市佔率叫做蘋果嗎?哈囉對這個你知道嗎?我知道可是以前有蘋果你知道嗎?知道"},{"start":199.069,"end":199.43,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":219.446,"end":240.318,"text":"因為他現在的市佔率大概是24.3%而且很多直營門市呢他持續做舊機換新機的方案他會發現民間二手機的回收量蘋果回收佔了56.3%排行是第一名所以你如果沒有把Apple納進來的話其實你要達到你希望跟國際接軌的數據是很難的"},{"start":243.108,"end":270.027,"text":"對,方委員其實我剛好前幾個禮拜幫家人去換手機那家人手機摔壞了那我去我以前去蘋果他就會把我回收走了那我們去一般的這個通訊行他就說回收率一支300塊那就以消費者的角度來說的話所以這個就是造成說一般的企業他主動像你主席仔細看這個蘋果的這個業績報告他的回收率是他重要的指標對,所以你真的應該要說服他可以跟你配合嗎?"},{"start":270.647,"end":298.502,"text":"但是因為手機業者他是最主動的但是有些的業者沒有那麼的主動這個是您之前環境部以前叫做環保署的時候110年的活動是有跟所有的10大品牌還有5大電信合作這個發布在之前110年的新聞稿中包括有Apple可是現在升格到環境部照理說應該有更大規模更高層級的合作案這個是今天希望可以"},{"start":299.302,"end":324.555,"text":"請你們可以注意的然後未來可以多加改善我們未來會把它提升但是委員提到說能不能有更好的目標我會再跟我們團隊再仔細再討論有沒有更精進的作為這是近期有看到在前瞻計畫第5期裡面看到部長有提出一個淨零排碳氣候法制策略精進計畫只規劃做8個月但是花了1.7億"},{"start":326.036,"end":335.577,"text":"其中主要的工作就是包括建立碳足跡係數資料庫這件事,您知道嗎?知道,這個是我們要呼應國際的要求,有一個冷卻行動的計畫"},{"start":337.125,"end":338.146,"text":"請問這兩個的計畫內容是不是有重疊的部分?"},{"start":361.602,"end":389.229,"text":"報告委員 這兩個不一樣 一個是這個是範疇三啦範疇三是很難去計算的那這個是這個是冷卻行動雖然名稱上面是一樣的但是針對這個碳足跡還有係數資料庫這個項目是不是您想要再擴充1111更多還是有什麼其他的我們請我們署長跟委員報告因為目前在網站上公佈的這個碳足跡的係數都是民間他們自願性要做碳足跡的這個"},{"start":390.429,"end":390.47,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":410.888,"end":411.088,"text":"這是您的網站"},{"start":426.884,"end":449.677,"text":"裡面有14個單位有跟你們合作做這些碳足跡的揭露那當然比如說高鐵或是華航這些有關股為主的單位都覺得是理所當然很能理解可是剛有許多委員提到的台鐵、台電也都是公家機關但為什麼你們到目前只有合作了14個而沒有一些指標可以再往上增加呢?"},{"start":450.652,"end":451.693,"text":"這個早上有許多委員已經關心了,所有這個"},{"start":477.884,"end":479.105,"text":"請這些超標的醫院提出具體的改善措施"},{"start":501.605,"end":517.199,"text":"這個我們跟這個八家醫院都有開會啦衛福部都有開會啦齁那事實上我們也希望說讓他們做源頭管制是最重要的對可是衛福部說跟跟這個醫院不相關您覺得呢"},{"start":517.745,"end":521.526,"text":"那正在環境部的立場你有沒有一些想法對於我們周遭醫院周遭這些住戶有沒有產生一些健康的影響做出評估或是調查"},{"start":548.304,"end":566.952,"text":"這個是我們先對水的部分,他們放流水,然後他對環境的這個影響,雖然說他們現在沒有立即的危害,但是委員提到的所以附近的這個住戶水體的,我們是針對水體啦,沒有對醫院附近的這個住戶的衝擊。對,但是我們調查這個其實主要就是害怕未來這些抗藥性嗎?"},{"start":568.45,"end":594.959,"text":"沒關係,這邊有一個具體的建議這邊有提供部長一個想法行政院近期有核定一個國家級防疫一體抗生素的抗藥性管理行動計畫等等會在114年正式啟動,總共編列了19億元那其中呢,疾管署的副署長羅一鈞就有講到說醫療機構的放流水管理並沒有納入在這樣子的計畫內左院長特別要求環境部應該主動監控"},{"start":596.84,"end":597.561,"text":"此後請我們市長,水保市市長"},{"start":616.909,"end":644.031,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們例行都有一個這個調查的一個計畫只是分年度在做但當然資源越多我們的這個範圍跟頻度會加強那這一部分呢至於預算的部分我們都有在相關的計畫裡面有所以你們已經夠了嗎因為你們兩年才找了8家而且這8家還都有問題不是我們是在109到112基本上就已經用了4年的時間那做了"},{"start":644.551,"end":646.933,"text":"我現在已經找到你們有預告草案你們想要修正這個水汙染的防治措施還有管理辦法"},{"start":670.808,"end":698.942,"text":"但是施行日期要等到115年1月1號才開始,這個部長您知道嗎?知道,知道對,所以其實有一年的時間是...讓他們改善啦,讓他們改善好,感覺這有點太久啦,所以在這邊希望是可以請你們可以積極主動爭取,因為行政院那個預算的計畫是跟你們很息息相關的對,所以希望你們可以積極的爭取,然後為了我們全民的健康著想,好嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":700.476,"end":700.497,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:12:01 - 11:23:42","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155425","gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（11時12分）謝謝主席，也想請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，10月是環境部一個很特別的月份，也是許多年輕人會關心的，你知道叫什麼月嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：10月？手機回收月，謝謝，不好意思！"],["陳委員菁徽：這是很多年輕人會關心的議題。全臺灣每年的手機銷售量是500到600萬臺，但是我們的回收率卻只有12%，您在這個月許許多多的新聞稿都有宣導這件事情，因為手機裡面有很多貴重金屬，對於資源的永續非常的重要。我在許多新聞稿都有找到，我們的手機回收率只有12%，您知道跟世界各國比起來，我們的數據是？"],["彭部長啓明：我所掌握的資料是像歐、美、日，他們大概是15%，我們有一段落差啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：對，那為什麼我們做不到呢？"],["彭部長啓明：從實際面來看，手機賣出去如何回收，其實還是要從源頭來做起。所以這段時間我們跟手機的廠商一個一個去談，因為有些產業，每個產業不一樣。像有些大家常用的大牌，其實他們都想要有自己的回收體系，算它自己的；有些它的體系不完整，所以我們現在預計在明年開始就要有一些新的法制化的作業。目前我們希望是在（明）114年1月1號，開始進行全部、強制的回收，提高循環率。"],["陳委員菁徽：明年啦！你有訂定一個目標是2026年要提升3%，提升到大概是日、韓、歐、美的低標，會不會覺得這個訂得有點太低了？因為我一直跟貴部門要一些raw data來看，我想知道你們從有手機回收開始統計這個比率至今的數據，可是網站也沒有，然後raw data也沒有，所以其實不知道你們這12%是怎麼計算出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們署長。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們手機回收率是由我們各業者提供，另外就是清潔隊回收的數量加起來的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我有稍微查了一下，其實回收的比例這麼低，大概因為管道很麻煩、誘因不足，還有民眾很擔心自己的個資。因此我有看了一下國外的作法，在這邊也提供給部長，你們是AI內閣，更應該要創新、有創意。所以歐美的經驗是他們常常會在手機的訊息通知民眾回收，還有一些回收的管道；另外他們的廠商是會開立手機刪除的證明等等讓他們安心，有一些足夠的誘因。下一張給您看一下，手機回收月等等活動內容其實是很豐富的，可是你知道你們缺了最大市占率的牌子叫做蘋果嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個您知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是以前有蘋果，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：原因在哪裡？這個是很多人很好奇的地方。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：這個就是因為在一個作法上面，可能他們覺得用這樣的方式，比較想要自己創一套啦，所以這個才是為什麼我們要把手機回收法制化的關係，就是不能有些人覺得認同就來做，不認同就不做，這樣不行。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為它現在的市占率大概是24.3%，而且很多直營門市持續做舊機換新機的方案，會發現民間二手機的回收量，蘋果回收占了56.3%排行是第一名，所以你如果沒有把Apple納進來的話，其實你要達到希望跟國際接軌的數據是很難的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，其實我剛好前幾個禮拜幫家人去換手機，家人手機摔壞了，我以前去蘋果就會把我回收走了，而我們去一般的通訊行，它就說回收一支300塊，以消費者的角度來說的話還能湊合著用，所以這個就是造成一般的企業主動……像你仔細看蘋果的ESG報告，它的回收率是它重要的指標。所以，我們現在……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你更應該要說服它可以跟你配合啊！"],["彭部長啓明：但是因為手機業者是最主動的，其他有些業者沒有那麼的主動。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這個是環境部以前叫做環保署的時候在110年的活動，你們是有跟所有的十大品牌，還有五大電信合作，這個發布在之前110年的新聞稿中，包括有Apple。可是現在升格到環境部，照理說應該有更大規模、更高層級的合作案，這個是今天希望請你們可以注意的，然後未來可以多加改善。"],["彭部長啓明：OK，好，我們未來會把它提升，但是委員提到能不能有更好的目標，我會再跟我們團隊仔細再討論有沒有更精進的作為。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，近期在前瞻計畫第五期裡面，看到部長有提出一個淨零排碳─氣候法制治理策略精進計畫，只規劃做8個月，但是花了1.7億，其中主要的工作就是包括建立碳足跡係數資料庫，這件事您知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：知道，這個是我們要呼應國際的要求，有一個冷卻行動計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：但在112年的公務預算當中，就已經用科技發展─淨零排放科技名義編列了7億6,000萬來做碳足跡的計算，然後我們也有到您的網站上去看，總共有1,111個產品的細項，這些碳足跡的資訊都有揭露出來。請問這兩個計畫內容是不是有重疊的部分？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這兩個不一樣，這個是範疇3，範疇3是很難去計算的，而另一個是冷卻行動，不太一樣，雖然名稱上面是一樣的。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是針對碳足跡還有係數資料庫，這個項目是不是您想要再擴充比1,111個更多，還是有什麼其他的？"],["彭部長啓明：我們請署長。"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，因為目前在網站上公布的碳足跡的係數，都是民間他們自願性要做碳足跡產品計算的時候，自己就它所需要的這些產品的項目去做係數的建立。而我們現在藉由明年科技的前瞻計畫，因為是因應我們現在在產業、在供應鏈上面，他們需要有範疇3的盤查，我們希望有公版的排放係數，所以想要藉由這樣來建立這個係數的資料庫。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這1.7億是專門針對範疇3？還是之前那一個？"],["蔡署長玲儀：1.7億有一部分是針對範疇3。"],["陳委員菁徽：另外您的網站，裡面有14個單位有跟你們合作做這些碳足跡的揭露，當然比如說高鐵或是華航這些有官股為主的單位，我都覺得是理所當然、很能理解，可是剛有許多委員提到的臺鐵、台電也都是公家機關，但為什麼你們到目前只有合作了14個，而沒有一些指標可以再往上增加呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是我們未來要努力的目標啦……"],["陳委員菁徽：因為太少了！"],["彭部長啓明：台電因為是一個係數而已啦，所以比較沒有那個問題啦。其實目前像交通部，我所知道他們有一個很好的範疇3的這種資料，我們也會把它放進去，等於是說未來量會增加，這個就是我們努力的目標啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：是，但希望你們可以把KPI也設計進去，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：早上有許多委員已經在關心所有這個……應該說是排放的這些放流水，如果有抗生素明顯超標的話，其實最害怕的是未來會發生抗藥性，然後導致病患沒有藥物可以使用。當然我們有看到這個新聞，您有抓到8家醫院已經超標，所以也想請教，是不是有發函請這些超標的醫院提出具體的改善措施？"],["彭部長啓明：我們跟這8家醫院都有開會，衛福部都有開會，事實上我們也希望讓他們做源頭管制，這是最重要的。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，可是衛福部說跟醫院不相關，您覺得呢？"],["彭部長啓明：這個當然有相關啊！這是醫院的放流水，所以我們會要求他們進行源頭管制，而且年底我們會公布放流水標準，它超標的部分會罰1萬到600萬以下的罰款，我們有一個水的相關措施，草案已經在9月26號公布了。"],["陳委員菁徽：站在環境部的立場，你有沒有一些想法，針對醫院周遭這些住戶有沒有產生一些健康的影響做出評估或是調查？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是先對水的部分，它的放流水，然後它對環境的影響。雖然說他們現在沒有立即的危害，但是委員提到了附近的住戶，我們是針對水體，沒有針對醫院附近住戶的衝擊。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但是我們調查這個，其實主要就是害怕未來這些抗藥性，沒關係，這邊有一個具體的建議，這邊有提供部長一個想法，行政院近期有核定一個國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫等等，會在114年正式啟動，總共編列19億元，其中疾管署副署長羅一鈞就有講到，醫療機構的放流水管理並沒有納入計畫內，卓院長特別要求環境部應該主動監控抗生素的數據，和衛福部還有農業部來合作辦理。既然他們有講到目前編列19億，如果您要編列預算的話，您覺得要多少經費才可以監控全國的區域醫院還有醫學中心等級的？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們水保司司長來說明。"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，我們例行都有一個調查的計畫，是分年度在做，當然資源越多，我們的範圍跟頻度會加強，至於預算的部分，我們都有在相關的計畫裡面有一部分編列……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們已經夠了嗎？因為你們2年才找了8家，而且這8家還都有問題。"],["王司長嶽斌：不是，我們從109年到112年，基本上就已經用了三、四年的時間做，因為項目非常多，我們只是在篩選，從90個項目裡面去篩選我們國內需要、應該加以監測、管理的項目，所以是用這些計畫在做相關的調查。我們後面會把它制度化，制度化的意思就是說，一定規模的醫院，我們就要求它有定期的檢測、申報以及削減的作為。"],["陳委員菁徽：我現在已經找到你們有預告草案，你們想要修正水污染防治措施還有管理辦法，但是施行日期要等到115年1月1號才開始，這個部長您知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：知道、知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以其實有1年的時間是……"],["彭部長啓明：讓他們改善、讓他們改善。"],["陳委員菁徽：感覺這有點太久啦，所以在這邊請你們可以積極主動爭取。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為行政院那個預算的計畫跟你們很息息相關，所以希望你們可以積極的爭取，然後為了我們全民的健康著想，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好、好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。在這邊作以下宣告：在鄭天財委員發言完畢後處理臨時提案；中午不休息，繼續質詢到結束為止。","接下來請柯志恩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁 要讓大家完全滿意齁 這個是不可能的事情啦 我也有充分的那個認知那委員在那邊寫的說不停 我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情但是畢竟要收費齁 這個要課稅齁 收費課稅在任何一個國家都是會被不習慣的 被討厭的 所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦"},{"start":243.703,"end":255.695,"text":"所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這一部分"},{"start":264.65,"end":282.548,"text":"那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會 報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相同圖"},{"start":285.191,"end":285.412,"text":"其實我們看到我國"},{"start":300.929,"end":320.695,"text":"對針對這個碳定價制度在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們瞭解日本韓國中國新加坡印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊"},{"start":321.295,"end":347.031,"text":"然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套"},{"start":347.951,"end":371.563,"text":"包委員其實我們部會在對企業的輔導是一體的在做那碳定價其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題"},{"start":372.964,"end":393.361,"text":"我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論"},{"start":399.626,"end":426.984,"text":"碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度"},{"start":429.926,"end":444.272,"text":"所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界"},{"start":445.232,"end":461.813,"text":"甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表"},{"start":462.313,"end":490.838,"text":"那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心"},{"start":491.158,"end":518.548,"text":"所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排十大污染源請問部長你知道這個十大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎現在我們台灣最大的還是屬於的發電業如果它的排碳量是最多的但是因為排碳量跟污染其實不見得是一致的所以這個還是有一點不一樣"},{"start":518.848,"end":547.916,"text":"所以我們看這個從2023統計前2年的資料來看這10大10大碳排其實幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策"},{"start":549.097,"end":567.511,"text":"假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去"},{"start":568.231,"end":589.815,"text":"是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時期"},{"start":589.895,"end":607.403,"text":"所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊"},{"start":608.383,"end":624.156,"text":"沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的"},{"start":625.118,"end":650.107,"text":"希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的"},{"start":653.516,"end":667.751,"text":"中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施"},{"start":669.333,"end":682.688,"text":"這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮"},{"start":686.753,"end":715.682,"text":"對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝"},{"start":719.237,"end":720.162,"text":"謝謝涂權吉委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:59:55 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董事長早那我想今天我們交通委員會針對台鐵的一個鐵道安全的部分我想前面幾位委員都提了很多的問題那本席這邊還是要再一次強調這個整個台鐵過去這個整個從以前台鐵局到現在改制到台鐵公司之後我想包含我們相關的部會也好包含我們"},{"start":45.589,"end":45.709,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":66.825,"end":80.097,"text":"36名的行進人員只有入取了700多位尤其在電力、電物、電機這些專業人力的上面出現不是不足的入取就是零入取的一些狀況那"},{"start":81.858,"end":94.892,"text":"在薪資結構方面除了原本的薪資結構遠遠不如我們高鐵之外甚至連這個小夜前的加班費高鐵從10月份開始申請一個人275塊三次發放但我們台鐵夜點費只有120塊這個不到一半然後"},{"start":102.639,"end":125.057,"text":"採請的狀況也不云不如人那尤其我們現在臺鐵公司的同仁有時候遇到這些刮風下雨還要冒著生命危險來搶救那包含我們的車長的一個背勤津貼、靈鬼、作業人員一些危險津貼跟這個第一線的這個主管津貼也許久未來調整那我想請教一下我們的次長跟董事長針對這樣子的一個薪資結構怎麼樣來做有效的調整"},{"start":129.2,"end":145.615,"text":"避免我們的這個競爭力能夠落後所以我簡單先說明然後再請杜董說比較細節的部分我想針對於臺鐵創業人員的這個心智的部分除了基本心智的考量以外還要考慮到他的職務的特性"},{"start":147.256,"end":166.906,"text":"還有他的專業的屬性去做一些評定的所謂的這樣的薪資那當然還有一些所謂的包括他們現在祭出的記憶獎金的部分比如說你三節出勤我還會再給你記憶獎金那危險津貼其實也有我想這部分大概會努力去做那當然最重要的是要創造這個台鐵的營收"},{"start":168.527,"end":186.864,"text":"把他增加以後,他的有營餘,這樣的話他有辦法讓這個把營餘回饋到員工裡面來。對,市長,這個我們都認同啦,但是我們,客氣我們也我們台鐵自己的產業工會,最近也發起這個全島連署啦齁,要求要加薪,這個事情董事長怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":187.745,"end":212.433,"text":"是 我想剛剛市長也有跟委員說明就是我們這邊一定要先增加我們的課員就是我們本業的收入還有就是善用資產就是我們副業的收入必須要讓我們的營運收入來提升這樣子我們才有辦法回饋到這個我們整個這個待遇調整的一個項目上去"},{"start":213.784,"end":233.506,"text":"董事長這一點因為我們的人員的不足加上相關的調度的一個產生很大的一個問題所以我記得上一會期本席也有特別提過我們雖然現在我們的機場設在我們潮州西部幹線但是屏東的鄉親似乎沒有享受到這樣子一個便捷的交通措施"},{"start":234.167,"end":255.913,"text":"像我們的班次來講,屏東縣的區間車的班次有時候甚至要等到2個小時才有一班車這個非常離譜啦這個機場設在我們屏東,結果我們卻不能享受這樣的一個優質的一個交通服務這部分是不是上一次我會期的時候會有要求我們台鐵公司來做檢討那不曉得這個後續的處理狀況"},{"start":258.094,"end":277.242,"text":"各位委員報告這個部分大概有兩個項目第一個就是我們有去檢視我們潮州以北一直到高雄、台南地區這個班次應該是夠應該是夠那現在重點是潮州以南那這一段的確這個剛剛講Headway比較大"},{"start":280.603,"end":308.824,"text":"那這個部分我們在今年6月的時候我們有增加開兩班車來縮減它的headway但是可能還不太夠了那我們現在的想法是說因為我們增開班次車上每一班車大概也就是三十幾位旅客我們有去看那我們現在的想法是說去看一下真正我們這一個區段的旅客他需要"},{"start":309.645,"end":309.765,"text":"主席"},{"start":340.266,"end":360.528,"text":"好那另外我想大家關心的齁臺鐵票價的一個調漲問題那當然對於這個整個成本的考量也好還有我們整個營運的成本考量也好我想臺鐵目前針對這樣的有聽說已經有在董事會有做討論那目前有沒有進一步的一個進度可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":361.628,"end":378.015,"text":"這個委員報告我們其實上一次第8次董事會已經有提報一個合理化的方案但是董事會認為不周延有退回經理部門那再做更進一步比較周延的那個研究那現在還在進行中"},{"start":378.875,"end":403.741,"text":"對,所以針對所謂的一個短程、中程、長程的一個票價的部分,是不是我們應該台鐵要提出一個比較有競爭性的一個方案?是,是,因為是要比較周圓對啊,你跟高鐵比好像也有點,跟這個捷運系統比好像也比不上,變成這個都不討好營運上也出現很大的問題,是不是應該做一個比較神聖的一個考量?是,這個是我們要努力"},{"start":406.195,"end":421.224,"text":"那請問一下次長針對台鐵這個票票價如果確定要調漲之後是不是應該針對不同的路線跟服務的等級要做一些靈活的一個運用甚至說我本席之前提過的"},{"start":421.664,"end":421.744,"text":"好,這沒問題"},{"start":445.697,"end":469.717,"text":"那另外我想針對這個屏東車站跟潮州車站都還是有出現漏雨的問題那我印像上次本席在上個會期提的時候董事長有承諾說這部分是不是已經有開始在做相關的一個工程的進行是跟委員報告像這個照片左邊這個現在不會發生了這個是我們站內那個集水盤"},{"start":470.418,"end":471.959,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":497.898,"end":527.459,"text":"董事長我想這個還是要抓住問題啦因為畢竟像我們屏東站跟草鎮都大概時間都不到10年那出現這樣的一個狀況因為本席也是常客我幾乎很常去做我自己也發現這個很多的包含老人家也好很多的學生也好為了要生活等等很容易跌倒啦真的很危險啦所以我想在這個問題一定要加快期程這個不能再拖下去那我們也希望說把這個修正問題解決之後"},{"start":527.819,"end":528.119,"text":"徐富癸"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:52:16 - 11:01:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155421","gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時52分）謝謝主席，我們有請交通部伍政次跟臺鐵公司杜董事長。"],["主席：好，請伍次長還有杜微董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：次長早、董事長早。今天我們交通委員會針對臺鐵鐵道安全的部分，我想前面幾位委員都提了很多的問題，本席這邊還是要再一次強調過去整個臺鐵，從以前臺鐵局到現在改制到臺鐵公司之後，包含我們相關的部會也好，包含所有社會都對於臺鐵公司有很高很高的期待，希望藉由這一次改制能夠脫胎換骨，但是我們現在看到，不但是現任人員難以留任，新人招考的狀況更是不理想，像今年2月，我們公司招考了936名新進人員，結果只有錄取了七百多位，尤其在電力、電務、電機這些專業人力上面出現不是不足額錄取，就是零錄取的一些狀況。","在薪資結構方面，除了原本的薪資結構遠遠不如我們高鐵之外，甚至連小夜勤的加班費，高鐵從10月份開始申請單次發放一個人275塊，但我們臺鐵夜點費只有120塊，不到一半，差勤的狀況也遠不如人，尤其我們現在臺鐵公司的同仁有時候遇到颳風下雨還要冒著生命危險來搶救，包含我們車長的備勤津貼、臨軌作業人員一些危險津貼跟第一線的主管津貼也許久未調整，我想請教一下我們的次長跟董事長，針對這樣一個薪資結構，怎麼樣來做有效的調整，避免我們的競爭力落後？"],["伍次長勝園：我簡單先說明，再請杜董說明比較細節的部分，針對臺鐵從業人員薪資的部分，除了基本薪資的考量以外，還考慮到他的職務特性，還有他的專業屬性去評定所謂的薪資，當然還有一些包括他們現在祭出的激勵獎金的部分，比如說你三節出勤，我還會再給激勵獎金，另外還有危險津貼，這部分我們會努力去做。當然，最重要的是創造臺鐵的營收，讓營收增加，之後有盈餘，將來才有辦法讓盈餘回饋給員工。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這個我們都認同，但是連臺鐵自己的產業工會最近都發起全島連署，要求加薪，這件事董事長怎麼看？"],["杜董事長微：是。剛剛次長也有跟委員說明，我們一定要先增加客源，就是我們本業的收入，還有就是善用資產，也就是我們副業的收入，必須提升我們的營運收入，這樣我們才有辦法回饋並做待遇調整。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，因為人員不足，以致在調度上產生很大的問題，我記得上會期本席也有特別提過，雖然現在機廠設在潮州西部幹線，但屏東鄉親似乎沒有因此而享受到便捷的交通措施。以班次來講，屏東縣區間車的班次有時候甚至要等兩個小時才有一班車，實在非常離譜！機廠設在屏東，結果我們卻無法享受到優質的交通服務！上會期我要求臺鐵公司做檢討，不曉得後續的處理狀況如何？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這部分大概有兩個項目，第一個，我們有去檢視潮州以北一直到高雄、臺南地區的班次應該是夠，重點是潮州以南這一段。這段如同剛剛所講的，headway比較大，所以我們在今年6月時增開兩班車以縮減其headway，但可能還不太夠。由於增開班次，每一班車大概就是三十幾位旅客，我們有去看過。我們現在的想法是，先看一下這個區段的旅客真正需要比較密集的時間帶……"],["徐委員富癸：我也希望能做量化的統計，我們也不希望因為這個班次……有時候有些地段坐的人及使用量可能沒那麼高，但有些路段、區段，確實有非常多人有通勤、就醫等明顯的需求，所以能不能調整一下班次，做有效運用？"],["杜董事長微：我們研究以後再來跟委員報告。"],["徐委員富癸：好。另外，我想大家關心的臺鐵票價調漲的問題，不管是基於成本考量，還是營運成本考量也好，聽說臺鐵董事會已經對此有做討論，目前有沒有進一步的進度可以跟國人說明一下？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，其實上一次（第8次）已經向董事會提報合理化方案，但董事會認為不周延，所以退回經理部門，需要再做更進一步且比較周延的研究，現在還在進行中。"],["徐委員富癸：針對短程、中程、長程的票價部分，臺鐵是不是應該提出比較有競爭性的方案？"],["杜董事長微：是、是。"],["徐委員富癸：不然跟高鐵比，好像有點……跟捷運系統比，好像也比不上，變成都不討好，營運上也出現很大問題。是不是應該做比較審慎的考量？"],["杜董事長微：這個我們要努力。"],["徐委員富癸：請教次長，若臺鐵票價確定調漲之後，是不是應該針對不同路線與服務等級，做一些靈活的運用？本席之前提過，比如在區間的套裝旅遊上跟旅遊業者合作，聽說成績也很不錯，這部分是不是有跟觀光署做進一步討論，也可以作為刺激國內消費很好的誘因？這部分是不是請次長協助一下？"],["伍次長勝園：好，這沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，屏東車站與潮州車站還是有漏雨問題，我印象中上一次本席在上個會期提的時候，董事長有承諾說這部分是不是已經有開始在做相關的工程進行？"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，像這張照片左邊這個，現在不會發生了，這是站內的集水盤容量不夠，我們已經加大，像這次颱風的豪雨，這個地區沒有再漏了；但是月臺上的，因為年代久了，silicon比較脆化了，因為那是要高架作業，我們大概在10月底以前會來進行改善。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，我想這還是要抓出問題，因為畢竟像我們屏東站跟潮州站大概時間都不到十年，卻出現這樣的狀況，因為本席也是常客，我很常去坐，我自己也發現，包含老人家也好、很多學生也好，為了要閃開，很容易跌倒，真的很危險，所以我想這個問題一定要加快期程，不能再拖下去，我們也希望在修繕問題解決之後，針對整個設計上的結構部分能不能再做一個調整？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["徐委員富癸：好，針對這部分是不是可以給本席一個書面的答復？"],["伍次長勝園：是，沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時12分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","有鑑於東部之交通發展，近10年未受到交通部之重視，尤其是東部民眾仰賴之鐵路運輸，迄113年5月尚未完成雙軌及電氣化，儼然落後西部近20年。然臺鐵公司化後，汲汲於營利獲取，忽略長期漠視東部鐵路建設，此外，一票難求之問題仍未有效解決，在此諸多問題仍需臺鐵儘速研處之餘，卻提出最為不相關之漲票價政策，嚴重損壞東部民眾搭乘權益，爰此建請交通部及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司，在花東鐵路電氣化及雙軌化尚未完成，且今年度多次遭受颱風侵襲，東部幹線中斷成為常態，民眾必須花費更多交通金錢與時間成本往返北部。東部災區完成復原與完全修復之前，凍漲臺鐵東部幹線之票價，避免帶給東部民眾及外縣市觀光客之衝擊。","提案人：黃建賓　　黃健豪　　林國成　　廖先翔","二、","案由：大台中山海環線計畫歷經十餘年，含山線鐵路高架化延伸至烏日（大慶─烏日）、海線鐵路雙軌暨部分高架化及新建甲后線鐵路，目前台中市政府修正並補充內容，並依交通部建議拆分，預計年底前送國發會審議；另台中山海環線，總經費高達800餘億，中央依照相關作業要點及地方財政能力，軌道高架化中央、地方各有經費分擔經比例，但仍應考量台中後續中捷運藍、橘線、屯區環狀大平霧紫線、藍線延伸至太平、綠線延伸至北屯大坑與彰化等重大軌道與捷運交通建設之財政負擔，建請交通部考量提高專案補助大慶─烏日鐵路高架化、海線鐵路雙軌暨部分高架化經費，以及請交通部加速相關計畫行政流程並儘速審查，並將後續執行狀況書面資料回覆本委員會。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月　　林俊憲　　","三、","案由：交通部已於今年7月2日召開委員會審議修正通過中捷捷橘線可行性研究計畫。但台中地方反映藍、橘線兩條捷運行經台中大部分區域，卻未涵蓋海線清水區，尤其中捷橘線僅離清水僅3公里，若能延伸與海線其他區域包括大甲、沙鹿甚至彰化等地，都能藉由台鐵轉乘捷運，到機場或台中其他區域。未來中捷橘線綜合規劃、基本設計、細部設計與補助款項撥補等程序，尚有充分時間可以努力，若臺中市政府進行橘線延伸清水段的可行性研究，一併納入橘線捷運，可全段一次施工完成，有經費不足，交通部應全力予以協助。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月　　林俊憲　　","四、","有鑑於台中市烏日區2023年登記人口數突破8萬人，移入之人口逐年增加；位於烏日區之高鐵台中站亦為台灣高鐵公司進出人數第二高之車站；又近期規劃於高鐵台中站旁設置大型購物觀光商城已進入開工前置工程，烏日高鐵特區之周邊交通道路規劃已漸不敷使用，經常有交通壅塞之情形發生，未來如購物觀光商城開幕後，交通、人潮必然更趨繁忙，爰建請交通部評估國道一號於高鐵台中站周邊增設匝道之可能性，並與臺中市政府共同研議規劃改善台中市高鐵站區周邊之交通。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月　　林俊憲　　","五、","案由：為儘速規劃並建構台中捷運路網，目前除捷運綠線完工通車外，另有台中捷運藍線、橘線（機場捷運線）、綠線延伸段（北屯大坑、南至彰化）；屯區環狀紫線（大平霧線）、中捷藍線延伸到太平等分別進行相關行政審議與修正程序中。現臺中市政府初步規劃「崇德豐原線」，沿線行經崇德商圈、十四期重劃區、洲際棒球場、潭子地區、至豐原大道與中正路路口，且臺中市政府於今年8月初申請可行性研究補助資料函送交通部，預估可行性研究經費共計2,000萬元，請交通部加速台中捷運「崇德豐原線」行政流程並儘速審查，並依中央補助比例協助，並將後續執行狀況書面資料回覆本委員會。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月　　林俊憲　　"],["主席：現在針對臨時提案第一案，請問各位委員及行政單位，有無意見？"],["杜董事長微：報告，有。"],["主席：請杜董事長。"],["杜董事長微：是。剛剛有跟委員報告，我們建議最後倒數第三行的最右邊開始做一點修正，我唸一下，就是從「東部災區」那邊開始，「東部災區和仁=崇德間完成復原，恢復雙線通車之前，凍漲臺鐵東部幹線之票價，避免帶給東部民眾及外縣市觀光客之衝擊，未來票價合理化方案應考量花東輸運特性調整。」"],["主席：好，謝謝杜董事長。針對杜董事長剛剛的修正意見，請問委員有沒有意見？（沒有）好，沒有意見，我們請臺鐵公司杜董事長再把書面給議事組這邊。"],["杜董事長微：是，請委員簽名再給議事組。"],["主席：OK，謝謝。修正通過。","針對臨時提案第二案，請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見？請提案委員何欣純委員。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。這個案子是我跟蔡其昌委員共同提案，因為我們共同在關心大臺中山海環線計畫，我記得上個會期曾經問過局長，局長有主動去跟臺中市政府溝通，有關這個山線鐵路高架化延伸至烏日，就是大慶到烏日段，還有海線鐵路雙軌暨部分高架化，以及興建甲后線鐵路，這三件事情，我記得局長有說要跟臺中市政府協調、協商，看是不是可以做部分的調整跟拆解，我想可能有初步的共識，我現在只是提案，希望再確認而且確保，希望交通部能夠在這三件事上面，可以考慮提高我們專案補助的經費，而且第二個，要加速這個計畫的行政流程跟審查，希望等一下再請交通部回答一下，好不好？我們這個案子希望各位委員大家都一起來支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。其他委員有沒有意見？好，請蔡其昌委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。有關這個案子，楊局長跟部長、次長都到我辦公室去報告過，跟欣純委員共同提案，其實主要就是透過提案讓部裡面更加清楚我們臺中兩位委員的態度跟想法。主要分兩個段落，我想大家都知道，第一個就是大慶段，這個也談很久了，當時主要還是在於經費分配比例的問題，所以這個部分一定要跟臺中市政府再一次積極溝通，中央願意出錢，依照規定，中央出該出的，如果市政府財政困難，中央依照規定，我們允許最大的補助款，我覺得中央都應該來協助臺中市，但是我們如果要中央全出，這個就是市政府不做這件事情的藉口，我想沒有辦法，這麼多年來就卡在這裡，所以能夠出的我們儘量來幫忙，這是第一個要確立的原則。","第二個，海線的部分，因為當時我要求要從環線裡面把海線的雙軌高架切割出來，雙軌化我們已經進行可研，早就已經做一段時間了，這個問題不大，現在依照進度持續推動海線的雙軌化，但是在大甲、清水、沙鹿三個段要高架化，這個又要市政府依照規定做部分的配合款，盧市長從過去的不願意到現在，我聽你們的講法，他有鬆口，我的原則還是一樣，如果地方政府的經費不足，但它願意出，但經費不夠，我們中央依照規定可協助的部分，我們還是要盡力來協助，也就是說，只要中央可以協助我們臺中發展的部分，我跟何欣純委員都覺得中央就要全力來幫忙，如果中央幫忙了、地方政府不做，那臺中市民自有論斷，我一向的立場都是如此。","最後一件事，時間的把握很重要，為什麼？因為中央直接自己做的海線雙軌化按照時程在推動，但如果市政府沒有辦法配合，那這時候會出現一個狀況，就是先雙軌化好了，再拆掉雙軌化、再把它高架，我想這個浪費公帑，市民也不會接受！關於這兩個介面，地方政府同意高架化、願意支持經費，中央的雙軌化中央全面處理，那這兩個介面之間要把它配合好，這個就是上一次你們到我辦公室時我再三提醒的部分，所以局長這部分可能要多多把握，那欣純委員把它加以書面化，表示我們非常重視這一個案子，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。針對臨時提案第2案，交通部這邊是不是請次長還是楊局長？"],["楊局長正君：跟兩位委員報告，這個提案我們沒有意見，完全遵照委員的指導來辦理；至於剛剛何委員跟蔡委員所關切的山線跟海線高架部分，確實我們現在努力地按照三個計畫做拆分，經費的部分按照剛剛委員所指導的原則來進行，這個案子我們也已經轉報到行政院，國發會有一些修正的意見，現在正由臺中市政府做修正報告，我們後續會按照這個方向來努力。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，臨時提案第2案行政單位沒有意見，我們就照案通過。","針對臨時提案第3案，請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見？請何欣純委員。"],["何委員欣純：我簡單補充說明，這也是我跟蔡其昌委員共同的提案，事實上蔡其昌是清水在地的優秀立委，那我是清水的媳婦，所以我們共同在推海線、捷運能夠進入清水。尤其我們現在看到橘線已經通過可行性評估、原則通過，現在臺中市政府還在做修正調整，那我們希望在這部分還在做修正調整的時候，可以要求臺中市政府重視清水地區、納入橘線延伸的可行性研究。我跟蔡委員希望中央在專業還有技術面是不是可以跟臺中市政府再做進一步的溝通，希望臺中市政府……所以我在這裡就寫「若臺中市政府進行橘線延伸清水段的可行性研究」，我希望中央地方大家一起合作，交通部應該全力予以協助，這是這個提案的最主要的精神。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員說明。","請蔡其昌委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：我來做個補充，交通部從上一任部長到這一任部長都來我辦公室溝通過，我的想法很簡單，就效益而言，短短的三公里就可以到清水街上但卻只到清泉崗機場，這種專業規劃極不合理、對海線的鄉親極不尊重。所以我在委員會也質詢過，如果市政府這樣做中央要來經費支持的話，本席對這個案子高度有意見，這是一個不合理、不合常規的一個規劃！從前一任部長到這一任部長我都請你們跟臺中市政府進行溝通，你們也都去溝通了，剛剛伍次長也跟我講，都有去溝通了。","主要是這樣，因為市政府已經將橘線到清泉崗國際機場的可研送到中央，也通過了，所以市政府不願意再破壞原有送來的可研，本席也支持，但本席覺得市政府應該同時再發包一個案子，就是延伸線的可研再發包一個案子，市政府如果經費不夠沒有問題，我也跟兩個部長都溝通好了，這一條延伸的可研預算中央來支持，中央來出就對了啦！所以市政府現在的回復是，局長說會報告給市長，所以要請市長趕快來支持，中央都幫他爭取到可研的經費、中央都願意出了！","因為可研趕快這個時候做，到時候施工就可以一起來，就是現在橘線過的可研加上延伸線過的可研，如果兩個可研都過了，因為施工還有一段很長的時間，可能十年以上，到時候就可以一起嘛；如果這時候不把這個可研一併做好，那你要等民國幾年才要來做這個可研？所以我覺得把握這個時間點不分藍綠啦！為臺中市民來做事，這個才是最重要的，我跟欣純委員也爭取到了中央可以來補助嘛，所以我也很希望市政府真的以蒼生為念、以海線的發展為念來支持這個案子。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。","請交通部這邊做回應。"],["伍次長勝園：我這邊跟委員報告，我們對這個事情非常慎重，上禮拜我找了臺中市政府來開會，跟他說明關於延伸到清水我們確實聽到很多民意，我們請他再考量一下；關於剛才提到的，這樣的費用交通部願意來幫忙、來支持。他上禮拜給我的初步回應是說，應該會去做。","如同剛剛提到的，如果同步進行的時候，未來如果同時核定，那我就一起施工都沒有關係，即使有差一點都沒有關係，就是可以完成、可以做的就趕快去做，畢竟它比較短，未來真的就有機會一次全部把它完成。"],["何委員欣純：所以你聽到了初步回應是會做，好，那我們期待啦，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我們會……"],["何委員欣純：我們中央交通部一定要全力支持啦，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：一定！是！"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：針對臨時提案第3案交通部這邊沒有意見，我們就照案通過。","接下來是臨時提案第4案，請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見？請何欣純委員。"],["何委員欣純：我再補充說明一下，這是我跟蔡其昌委員、素月委員、俊憲委員共同提案，我跟其昌委員兩位臺中委員共同關心臺中高鐵站周遭的交通狀況，我上次在質詢的時候部長、次長及大家都有聽到，我們現在真的必須立刻來面對、解決這個問題，當然有很多方法。我在這個提案裡面提到，交通部是不是可以來評估看看國道1號跟高鐵臺中站的連結？這是一個；增設匝道之後，當然還有其他平面道路該解決的，也希望交通部跟臺中市政府共同來研議、規劃、改善。","因為臺中高鐵站人口流量最多；第二個，它有國際展覽會館在那裡；第三個，它有一個未來亞洲最大的大型觀光購物中心在那裡，現在已經在塞了，你可以看到未來三年後絕對會更塞！那我們要未雨綢繆，所以我希望交通部再更積極一點來做各項的評估、來找解方，然後最重要的是，也要跟臺中市政府進行中央、地方密切的溝通，看怎麼樣去解決，以上是我這個提案，希望大家支持。"],["主席：謝謝欣純委員的說明。","那還有沒有其他委員要表示意見？","如果沒有，我們就請交通部這邊做個回復。"],["伍次長勝園：是，跟委員報告，這個部分現在我們知道臺中市政府有在做所謂轉運站等一些交通的事情，這個我們都密切在保持配合；另外，針對國道1號增設匝道的部分，因為匝道有一些技術上的需求，沒關係，我想這個請我們高公局來做一個評估，這沒問題，我們來評估看看。"],["主席：謝謝。針對臨時提案第4案交通部這邊沒有意見，我們就照案通過。","接下來處理第5案，請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見？"],["何委員欣純：我再補充說明一下。"],["主席：好，請欣純委員。"],["何委員欣純：這個同樣是我跟蔡其昌委員關心臺中軌道運輸的部分，我們現在有綠線、藍線、橘線，藍線還要再延伸到屯區；橘線我們剛剛提案要延伸到清水；綠線現行也有延伸往北到大坑、往南到彰化；還有另外一個屯區的環狀線，就是大平霧線。另外我們很多人在爭取，包括不分黨派的委員，大家認為在崇德豐原線、山線，在目前臺中捷運路網裡面，缺了山線這一線，所以希望能夠規劃崇德豐原線，交通部是不是可以支持？這是這個提案最主要的，希望交通部能夠支持大臺中的軌道捷運，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝欣純委員。請問還有沒有其他委員要補充說明？如果沒有，就請交通部回應。"],["伍次長勝園：是，我們遵照委員的指導，我們會全力協助。"],["主席：交通部這邊沒有意見，臨時提案第5案就照案通過。","臨時提案處理完畢，如有委員對上述提案補簽，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","一、","有鑑於東部之交通發展，近10年未受到交通部之重視，尤其是東部民眾仰賴之鐵路運輸，迄113年5月尚未完成雙軌及電氣化，儼然落後西部近20年。然臺鐵公司化後，汲汲於營利獲取，忽略長期漠視東部鐵路建設，此外，一票難求之問題仍未有效解決，在此諸多問題仍需臺鐵儘速研處之餘，卻提出最為不相關之漲票價政策，嚴重損壞東部民眾搭乘權益，爰此建請交通部及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司，在花東鐵路電氣化及雙軌化尚未完成，且今年度多次遭受颱風侵襲，東部幹線中斷成為常態，民眾必須花費更多交通金錢與時間成本往返北部。東部災區完成復原與完全修復之前，凍漲臺鐵東部幹線之票價，避免帶給東部民眾及外縣市觀光客之衝擊。","提案人：黃建賓　　傅崐萁　　黃健豪　　林國成　　廖先翔","五、","案由：為儘速規劃並建構臺中捷運路網，目前除捷運綠線完工通車外，另有台中捷運藍線、橘線（機場捷運線）、綠線延伸段（北屯大坑、南至彰化）；屯區環狀紫線（大平霧線）、中捷藍線延伸到太平等分別進行相關行政審議與修正程序中。現臺中市政府初步規劃「崇德豐原線」，沿線行經崇德商圈、十四期重劃區、洲際棒球場、潭子地區、至豐原大道與中正路路口，且臺中市政府於今年8月初申請可行性研究補助資料函送交通部，預估可行性研究經費共計2,000萬元，請交通部加速台中捷運「崇德豐原線」行政流程並儘速審查，並依中央補助比例協助，並將後續執行狀況書面資料回覆本委員會。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　黃健豪　　陳素月　　林俊憲"],["主席：接下來邀請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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留不住啊薪資待遇不好啊"},{"start":231.237,"end":236.721,"text":"所以我要講的就是現在人員年資過短導致經驗無法傳承的工作環境自然影響到事故發生也是有這個影響的和運輸安全"},{"start":253.374,"end":266.522,"text":"那以運安會的這個鐵道安全報告中也顯示臺灣的平交道事故對比照統計定義相同的日本的JR居然長期高於日本的兩倍那你們認為有沒有改進的空間"},{"start":269.031,"end":290.859,"text":"評價道的部分確實應該是一個開放性的真的是有時候其實我們碰到有一些就是不遵守那些交通規則就硬要進去已經警示燈了炸人一下來他還是硬要闖過去這當然所以我們這個要在我們的電路計畫裡面有提到一些如果自由太久的兩三秒鐘的部分他會警示"},{"start":291.599,"end":318.951,"text":"我想這部分我們會再來進行對 次長我覺得是這樣當然你可以講出很多理由甚至怪這些人不看這個交通耗資但是實際的數字就是這樣所以我們希望次長我想你也覺得應該要改變所以我們希望可以實質的去討論如何真的改善在未來的數字可以下降那另外我也想要問一下我們可以看到整體台鐵的事件高居不下大概都是六七百件左右那我想要請問一下部長112年到底是幾件"},{"start":321.724,"end":347.939,"text":"一百一十二年的一百一十二年到底是幾件這裡一百一百零八年七百一十五件嘛一百零九年六百三十二件一百一十年七百零二件嘛一百一十一年六百六十一件那一百一十二年到底是幾件因為我剛剛也有看到委員有寫但是我想要問說在台鐵公報年報上居然在一百一十二年刪除了此欄這為什麼會這樣"},{"start":350.236,"end":357.102,"text":"那我上網去查大概就只有分月報表有那為什麼年報沒有是有不想要讓大家看清楚這個數字嗎"},{"start":359.536,"end":383.128,"text":"跟委員報告 我們沒有什麼好隱瞞的對 那問題是疏漏嗎不公開數字這是不是容我回去查一下跟委員報告好不好好 那請查完之後再跟我們講為什麼年報沒有我們沒有要隱瞞是 所以我只是提供這給你看我相信這平坦講過去幾年也都公佈那為什麼112年沒有另外準點率的部分"},{"start":384.028,"end":413.123,"text":"我們前任交通部長李孟彥雖然他的任期不長但是他有一項宣示就是說在台鐵今年一月轉型國營公司之後並且進行組織調整就是簡單來講他就是希望效率大大提高讓我們台鐵的準點率能夠從95%漲到97%我想請問這個目標是不是依然沒有改變目標沒有改變不過也要跟委員老實的報告因為今年的天災比較多那我們的準點率是有受到影響"},{"start":414.096,"end":429.354,"text":"是這部分呢我想當然是努力達成那不要亂開支票不過我想要講一件事情我們可以發現所謂的95%的準點率是指單一的這個列車抵達終點站的時候那實際抵達時間如果在表定的時間的一定範圍內就可以說為準點了那"},{"start":431.616,"end":458.991,"text":"對吧那換句話說中途停靠各站究竟是提早或者是延誤多久都不在這個所論上面那這就會造成民眾的體感或者印象上怎麼與統計數字有這麼大的差異那我想要講前面97%你們說統計的目標依然要努力的達成但是未來能不能夠把各站的統計點這各站點的統計數據也都納入參考這樣才可以知道真正的每一站你的準點率是多少"},{"start":460.273,"end":467.309,"text":"是不是跟委員報告其實我們這個準點率是全應該是講說全國一致性的"},{"start":468.479,"end":490.022,"text":"全國一致性的一個做法你現在一致性是從出發點到末端點嗎?但我一直說你中間的這個站點呢?計算方式是一樣跟委員報告計算方式是一樣但是我們台鐵公司我們願意就剛剛委員講的方式我們也會去做統計然後我們來作為我們改進的一個參考"},{"start":490.543,"end":490.683,"text":"廖偉翔"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:43:29 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各位委員報告 這個事故發生以後我們有檢討 然後有做改進檢討的結論是什麼就很多項啦 包括我們對於這個車上我們這個ATP的一個監視還有就是互相聯絡的方式還有就是我們車子 我們主風棒那個主營主風棒的一個改善 這個我們都有都有做這個檢討改善"},{"start":534.798,"end":540.412,"text":"我們這樣講當然不希望再發生事故那只是未來所以我們以後未來台鐵的駕駛他不用去負擔這個風險了是不是就是說他當然"},{"start":544.58,"end":567.889,"text":"這一次這個普悠瑪事故當時發生的時候是因為駕駛員他根本找不到他到底怎麼辦沒有人跟他講他怎麼辦他當然去做了一些動作所以導致他現在要負50%的責任我跟你說今天台鐵的駕駛員他未來是要承擔還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險還是你可以保證說未來我們台鐵駕駛員在開車的時候他去尋求管制去尋求資源的時候你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的"},{"start":569.289,"end":586.464,"text":"跟委員報告這有兩部分我們一般來講執行我們這個列車乘務駕駛的他有他的規章制度這個他一定要遵守不像這一次我們普悠瑪事故很不幸我們司機員沒有遵守他的沒有遵照他的規章制度他沒遵守現在法院判他50%另外50%公司的責任"},{"start":589.286,"end":612.375,"text":"對對對公司的責任就是第二部分第二部分的話現在我們進行的改善我們都應該算是已經都完成到位了所以你可以保證說以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救的時候要求助的時候不會再發生上這次的事情對現在我們行控處都有新的SOP可以給他充分的資源因為為什麼要提到這個提到就要講到下面這一張"},{"start":614.666,"end":626.883,"text":"這個董事長這個一上來之後當然你們台鐵的管理層這個調薪成功但基層待遇沒有特別的這個影響沒有改變第一薪改善要再等等所以我想這個為什麼因為我覺得這對基層員工來講是一個很大的這個影響"},{"start":631.129,"end":647.774,"text":"當然你們說這是為對標所謂國營事業其他國營事業但是我們看到其他都是一樣都是國營事業起薪來講這個台鐵相對來講他的起薪就是比較低那他又要負擔這麼他如果又要負擔這麼大的風險那我們也看到這兩天的新聞而已其他國營事業招考的這個"},{"start":649.054,"end":668.713,"text":"錄取率非常非常低但我們台鐵的錄取率反而招考的人數反而不足所以這是一連串的結構問題我不知道台鐵公司現在公司化之後董事長你也調薪了那你對於這樣的底薪這種起薪這麼低面對的風險這麼高要怎麼辦後續我們再招考重新招考的話難道台鐵的這個員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎"},{"start":670.014,"end":689.814,"text":"各位委員報告其實我們國營事業我們的薪水都是依照我們的規定、規矩來的那的確我們台鐵公司現在尤其是基層員工我們的薪水不如某些其他國營事業所以我們現在公司我們一定要"},{"start":690.655,"end":691.495,"text":"董事長最後一句話因為時間也到了"},{"start":707.096,"end":731.417,"text":"我也坦誠的覺得說你們的確應該要增加營業收入不管你在後面要調票價或是說你要做這個土地開發但是我們希望這個錢這個資金是能夠回饋到基層員工嘛你不要說真的不要管理層調薪水啦你的基層若沒調薪水你的人你就一定不足人不足大家就想走走了之後經驗傳承出現問題那就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題嘛所以董事長你可以承諾說未來"},{"start":731.937,"end":732.097,"text":"黃健豪委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:30:46 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10:43:16","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155419","gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時30分）謝謝主席。主席，我們先請伍次長跟高鐵公司的鄭總經理。"],["主席：請伍次長還有鄭總經理。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好。次長跟總經理，我們首先一定要先提到上週高鐵雲林站國慶煙火疏散的問題，我想這真的是一個非常誇張的事件，我想問一下總經理，過去高鐵有沒有疏運過這麼多人潮的經驗？"],["鄭總經理光遠：我們有這麼多人潮的經驗，但是在瞬間裡面，一下子湧進三、四千人，這是第一次。"],["黃委員健豪：我跟總經理說明，我覺得這個事情是這樣，因為我看了新聞，你看這個圖片的時間是9點4分，你們事後的新聞稿說高鐵公司在8點45分就啟動了人潮管制，但是我想過了20分鐘之後還是這個人潮，那新聞稿8點45分說啟動人潮管制，晚上9點50分，也就是1小時後就解除了相關管制，人潮進入綠燈，就表示說這個人潮的速度……當你們啟動管制，你們表定是8點45，到9點，1小時後它就能夠解除，表示它的人其實沒有多到這麼誇張，是一開始的管制有問題吧？"],["鄭總經理光遠：跟委員報告，最主要是為什麼在那個時間裡面這麼多人，因為我們在8點31分以後，一直到9點12分才有車子，所以這個時候人潮就一直在進來。事實上我們在這次的煙火散了以後，其實客人在8點20分就湧進了這個車站，我們本來預期應該是在8點40分煙火放完，8點45分以後才會來，那8點20分我們發現這麼大量的人潮湧進，我們就提早啟動應變的機制，換句話說，因為我們8點31分有車子，所以我們那個時候就把閘門打開，旅客就不需要一個一個驗票，可以進去一直走。"],["黃委員健豪：好，總經理，這個是一次的教訓，我想未來高鐵周邊不會只有這一次活動。"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。"],["黃委員健豪：但因為這次是雲林，可能過去它的人潮沒這麼多。我們看之前，去年網友有看到在臺中站，臺中每一次的周末、每一次的連假，像去年的中秋連假，它排隊一路排到停車場，它就啟動人潮管制，它很早就啟動了，因為它就是預期會有這麼多人。那像國慶煙火也是，國慶煙火號稱會有30萬、四十幾萬人到現場，所以高鐵公司理論上也會清楚說當天就有這麼多人要離開那個地方，所以我們希望經過這一次的教訓，未來我也拜託我們次長要督導一下，就是這種大型活動在疏運的時候，你要提前規劃，那是因為這次好運，真的沒有發生嚴重的推擠，但那個人潮真的很多，網路上有非常多的照片跟影片，我想次長跟總經理也都有看到，所以後續你們有沒有重新檢討過，到底以後要怎麼樣面對這樣子大型活動的疏運機制？"],["鄭總經理光遠：我想這一次最主要是因為雲林車站裡面的空間太小了，我們啟動人潮管制以後，我們原則上是把800個人放在我們的月台上面，然後在川堂層付費區裡面大概有500個人，剩下的人就只能在我們的閘門以外了，那大概有700個人。換句話說，我們的站體裡面、車站裡面大概只能有2,000人，所以那時候有三千多人到的時候，我們就把這一千多人放在我們的站外，但是站外那邊的話，因為後面的人一直進來，還好那時候有鐵警協助我們不要讓他們進去，所以我們……"],["黃委員健豪：對啦！所以站外也要管制，因為我看警察也很辛苦，但是警察的機制也是比較晚啟動，人潮都已經擠到不行，他們才進來管制，所以還是希望高鐵公司，你們真的算是獲利很好，但不能只顧賺錢。因為大家要離開都希望坐高鐵最方便，就像雲林這一次辦所謂的國慶煙火，為什麼會辦在高鐵特定計畫區？也是看上這樣疏運比較快，有大眾運輸在那邊疏運比較快，所以我希望高鐵公司，第一個，你們是官方；第二個，你們有社會企業責任，不能每次疏運的時候賺很多錢，賣自由座讓大家全都擠上車，結果在站外要安全地離開卻是一件困難的事情。拜託一下，未來你們的各站區，尤其在面臨到連假、大型活動的時候，是不是要有一個機制的檢討報告出來？你們這次有做檢討報告嗎？"],["鄭總經理光遠：謝謝指導。事實上，我要跟您報告，我們在這短短時間裡面開了12班車次，載運大概有1萬人，所以整個機制是有的，只是說在短時間裡面人進來，就變成必須要把人放在站體。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，那以後怎麼辦？以後會不會再次發生類似的事情？我認同，你們也的確開了加班車，把月臺上的人運走沒問題，但我的問題是以後一瞬間湧入這麼多人潮的時候，各站有沒有作業流程能夠去管制或怎麼樣，什麼時候來啟動、什麼時候請警察來協助、什麼時候啟動相關管制，你們有相關的檢討嗎？還是這次過了就算了，以後再看情況？"],["鄭總經理光遠：我們當然會有檢討。事實上，這次有很完整的SOP，譬如支援的人力大概有100人以上在各個地方協助，有些已經買票了，那就是安排他進來；沒有買票的，就安排他去買票，其實都是有的。"],["黃委員健豪：那是後來的事情，一開始沒有，一開始就是有買票的、自由座有票的，全部都擠在門外，有的人進得來，有人進不來。我現在問的是，以後類似這樣的問題，你們的機制有檢討報告嗎？還是看著辦？"],["鄭總經理光遠：不是看著辦，事實上，我們會就原有的機制再強化、補強，尤其跟鐵警的配合會更即時。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝總經理，請回座。"],["鄭總經理光遠：謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，未來真的不能再發生類似的事情，我想這次是好運。"],["伍次長勝園：對，我跟委員報告一下，剛剛提到的，我們也要求高鐵公司要檢討，包括剛剛提到站外的動線，我想這非常重要。第二個，剛才提到一個重點，車班9點12分才有，八點多大概有人就先散場跑去了，所以加開班車的時間點也許可以再早一點。我回過頭以這個案子來講，假設8點50分加開一班車，就紓解掉一大部分，不用一直要累積到9點12分，如果有人看到這邊人很多，會更急著想要離開。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["伍次長勝園：所以我覺得加開班車的時間點也是可以去檢討的，針對委員剛剛提醒的，我請高鐵公司去好好檢討，不會說這個過了就算了。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝次長。現在再請臺鐵杜董上來一下，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，今天討論的是鐵道安全，剛好上禮拜普悠瑪事故有新的判決，臺鐵跟司機要各負百分之五十的責任。最新的判決說各負百分之五十，現在認定司機有相關責任，但是在一審的判決裡面提到，駕駛員多次跟調度員、檢查員聯絡，發現通訊設備品質不良、人員專業不足，臺鐵內部橫向聯繫、直接指揮系統紊亂，臺鐵本身是組織失靈、系統失靈，這是一審判決書提的。二審判決也覺得駕駛員有駕駛員的責任，但是我們只能針對結構性問題討論，一審提到的指揮系統紊亂、橫向聯繫失靈，這部分臺鐵公司有檢討了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有，這個事故發生以後，我們有檢討，然後有改進。"],["黃委員健豪：檢討的結論是什麼？"],["杜董事長微：很多項，包括對於車上ATP的監視、互相聯絡的方式，還有車子阻風泵的改善，我們都有檢討、改善。"],["黃委員健豪：我們當然不希望再發生事故，所以未來臺鐵的駕駛就不用負擔這個風險了，是不是？當時普悠瑪事故發生，是因為沒有人跟駕駛說他到底要怎麼辦，他當然去做了一些動作，所以導致他現在要負百分之五十的責任。臺鐵的駕駛員未來還要不要承擔這種系統性的風險？還是你可以保證未來臺鐵駕駛員開車尋求管制、尋求支援的時候，你們的橫向聯繫是沒問題的？"],["杜董事長微：這有兩部分，一般來講，執行列車乘務駕駛有規章制度，他一定要遵守，不像這一次普悠瑪事故，很不幸司機員沒有遵照規章制度。"],["黃委員健豪：他沒遵守，所以現在法院判他百分之五十，另外百分之五十是公司的責任嘛？"],["杜董事長微：對。公司的責任就是第二部分。第二部分，我們現在進行的改善應該算是已經都完成到位了。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你可以保證以後駕駛員在列車行駛過程中要求救、求助的時候，不會再發生像這次的事情嗎？"],["杜董事長微：現在我們行控處都有新的SOP，可以給他充分的支援。"],["黃委員健豪：為什麼提到？因為要講到下面這一張，董事長一上來之後，臺鐵的管理層調薪成功，但基層的待遇沒有改變，低薪改善要再等等。我覺得這對基層員工來講，是一個很大的影響，當然你們說，這是為了對標其他的國營事業。但是我們看到，一樣都是國營事業，相對來講，臺鐵的起薪就是比較低，又要負擔這麼大的風險。我們也看到這兩天的新聞，其他國營事業招考的錄取率非常低，臺鐵反而是人數不足，所以這是一連串的結構問題。臺鐵公司現在公司化之後，董事長也調薪了，對這種起薪這麼低、面對的風險這麼高，你要怎麼辦？難道後續重新招考，臺鐵員工的人數就能夠補滿嗎？"],["杜董事長微：國營事業的薪水都是依照規定、規矩來的。的確，臺鐵公司現在的薪水不如其他國營事業，尤其是基層員工，所以現在公司除了確保安全、提升服務以外，還希望能夠招攬更多的客群，以及加上善用資產，其實就是希望能夠增加我們的營業收入。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，最後一句話，因為時間也到了。我也坦誠地說，你們的確應該要增加營業收入，不管後續要調票價或是土地開發，希望資金都能夠回饋到基層員工，不要只有管理層調薪水，基層如果沒調薪水，人就一定不足，人不足大家就想走，走了之後，經驗傳承出現問題，就很容易出現一連串結構性的問題。董事長可以承諾，未來假設不管要調票價或土地開發有收入，這些收入及營收能夠回饋給基層員工嗎？"],["杜董事長微：我們會回饋給基層的員工，而且也會把它投資在安全改善上面。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來邀請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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氣體排放佔了0.9可是如果把醫療供應鏈加進去事實上真的是不少 有到4.4%那未來在這部分的政策方向如何能夠具體協助醫院來做節能的這個方案 不知道目前的規劃如何"},{"start":490.296,"end":506.85,"text":"目前跟委員報告就是說我們現在經濟部跟環境部正在研議一個就是深度節能就是ESCO的下一代那目前來看的話我們經濟部的團隊會負責公立醫院、部立醫院那整個私立醫院是由環境部這邊來負責所以我們會針對全台灣的這個醫院的"},{"start":510.914,"end":528.411,"text":"現在是8000KW以上的大戶會來進行主動來輔導那小的是未來在做所以這個是深度節能那這個費用不是從政府的費用來而是我們希望帶動民間的資金能夠來幫助這個醫院那細節上可能還要再一兩個月的時間再跟委員報告"},{"start":529.451,"end":552.42,"text":"好 因為我們也知道醫學中心那個能源佔用真的是電力的部分非常的高的爬速 將近有八成那在電力耗用裡面空調又佔了55%其他照明插座等等那在要更新啦 或者是要讓這些設備可以更為發揮它的效能真的是也是一筆重大的費用所以我們很期待"},{"start":553.22,"end":553.48,"text":"謝謝王正旭委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:39:37 - 10:49:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155418","gazette":{"lineno":614,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時39分）謝謝主席，請彭部長，還有經濟部產業發展署楊署長。"],["主席：請彭部長、楊署長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員早。"],["王委員正旭：部長早，署長早。讓地球可以深呼吸，所有地球上的生物可以深呼吸，臺灣的民眾可以放心地深呼吸，我想這是今天要跟部長討論的事情。淨零減碳的政策真的非常重要，所以我們要走對的路、做對的事，部長有多少信心？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實我來接這個工作就是一個很挑戰的工作，就是這個不確定、很挑戰吸引我來做，所以委員，我會努力的往這方面邁進，我有信心。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們就繼續來把對的事情做好。關於碳費的部分，先請教一下關於當碳費拍板以後，當然各界反應會有不一樣的一些想法，請問部長在拍板之前，跟經濟部有做多少互相的討論？為什麼碳費拍板定案以後，經濟部會表達遺憾？這部分可不可以請兩位簡單做個說明。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，費率的制定是碳費審議委員會來定義，但是我們在形成一個決策的時候的確有進行跨部會協商，包含跟院長也都有報告過這個事情，不過最後還是由審議委員會來決定，其實我也很尊重經濟部，因為經濟部是從產業的角度發聲，所以我們也會跟著他們積極來協調討論這個事情。我當然知道大家會說環保跟經濟有點衝突，當然有時候會衝突，但是我們畢竟還是夥伴，所以這個部分，我也謝謝他們有表達這樣的聲音，那我們未來也會充分的考量在裡面。"],["王委員正旭：好。請問經濟部，你們如何替產業發聲？遺憾與為產業發聲之間有沒有什麼連結？"],["楊署長志清：是，謝謝。經濟部也是碳費審議委員會裡面的成員，我們是針對目前各行各業所面對的產業環境，認為大家應該要可以負擔得起，然後可以用穩健的方式來處理，再加上不是所有行業都跟AI有關，所以有時候有些產業是相對比較辛苦，所以我們是希望用穩健的方式，可以逐步用低的費率來做起步，再來穩健的調整，應該讓產業比較健康來適應。也跟委員報告，目前我們產創條例也在修法，希望讓業者有更多的誘因來做減碳，減碳可以做投資抵減，碳費低一點讓企業有多一點錢可以來做實質減碳，這樣子應該是比較穩健。當然審議委員會有各種不同的聲音，所以產業的聲音必須要能夠充分的表達出來，以上。"],["王委員正旭：了解，所以希望往後就不要有遺憾，而是如何共同努力往前走，好，謝謝署長。","再過來請教部長，碳費專款使用剛剛很多委員都有請教部長，針對未來預計會有60億元左右的碳費收取，請問一下部長，列了這麼多需要去處理的層面部分，在執行過程當中，目前有沒有計畫要怎麼分配？剛剛部長也提到很多，教育面還有相關的調適面等等，部長也很用心在部裡面做了這麼好的資料可以讓民眾參考，所以如何分配碳費收入，目前部長有沒有初步的規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我個人是希望這個60億放大十倍，變600億，就是把民眾的錢、大企業的錢有更好的效益來做使用。但是如何按照氣候變遷因應法的原則去定義，這個需要成立一個委員會，目前委員會我所知道的應該是我會來擔任主席，然後來訂規則，請各方面的委員還有各個部會來參與，所以目前細節怎麼用，我們還沒有定，預計明年才會開始草擬這些事情。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們希望效益可以極大化。","再過來有關於成立基金的部分，部長，目前也規劃有3個基金可以來協助整體處理的要求，包括綠色成長基金，預計或者會挹注100億元，可是我們看到好像要爭取，到底這兩者之間有多少落差？再過來就是綠色金融創新的部分，什麼時候有好的平臺產生，讓保險業者可以把這樣的資金搭上綠色產業，這兩部分也麻煩部長幫忙說明。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，第一個是國發基金，我們已經獲得國發會主委口頭上的承諾，他覺得這是非常好的，而且他也承諾我100億用完之後還可以再想辦法，然後這個現在我們正在寫申請書，因為國發基金已經有好幾個部會也有類似的基金，所以我們有一個很好的方案、方向可以去學習、來進行，我們也會成立一個專案辦公室，預計希望11月送國發基金審議委員會通過，明年1月1號可以實施，所以我們目前是希望訂在明年1月1號，1月開始來進行做這個事。","至於綠色金融創新是跟金管會，金管會其實也很熱心地協助我們找保險公司能夠來談資金的取得，這個都不是政府原來預算的錢，目前的確已經有還不錯的成效，但是也遇到一些問題，就是裡面的細節上，例如做ESCO、做深度節能有一定的風險，如何去擔保，我們還是遇到一些細節上的問題，還在解決當中，但是這個應該未來一、二個月內會有結果。","第三個，因為前面兩個如果完成之後，我們更希望的是鼓勵國內的創投業者能夠投資進來，因為國際上這種氣候科技、淨零的量非常的大，一年全球大概有1,000億美金的數值，所以我們也希望國內的創投業者也可以來關心、國內相關的業者可以來做這個事情。其實也跟委員報告，我們剛剛統計了一個資料，國內在一些求職平臺的這種所謂綠色工作人才，一個月平均大概有2萬個新的工作機會，我們也希望從賴清德總統的綠色成長的戰略裡面，是不是可以創造一些新的動能來幫助臺灣，這個是現在我們環境部所面對的一個新的態度。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們也希望讓這些需求在人力上的供應，或者是未來的發展可以更全面。","再過來就是要請教部長有關醫療機構減碳的部分，非常謝謝，也非常肯定部長在這方面幫醫療機構在費用的部分做了一些正向的允諾，剛剛蘇委員也談到這個事情。請教一下，我們也知道其實醫療部門雖然所占的使用量不是很大，氣體排放占了0.9%，可是如果把醫療供應鏈加進去事實上真的是不少，有到4.4%，未來在這部分的政策方向如何能夠具體協助醫院來做節能方案，不知道目前的規劃如何？"],["彭部長啓明：跟委員報告，現在經濟部跟環境部正在研議深度節能，就是ESCO的下一代，目前來看的話，經濟部的團隊會負責公立醫院、部立醫院，整個私立醫院是由環境部來負責，所以我們會針對全臺灣的醫院大戶，現在是8,000KW以上的大戶會進行主動輔導，小的是未來再做，所以這個是深度節能，這個費用不是從政府的費用來，而是我們希望帶動民間的資金能夠來幫助醫院，細節上可能還要再一、兩個月的時間再跟委員報告。"],["王委員正旭：好。因為我們也知道，醫學中心能源占用電力的部分真的是非常高的百分比，將近有八成，在電力耗用裡面，空調又占了55%，其他照明、插座等等，要更新或者是要讓這些設備可以更為發揮它的效能真的也是一筆重大的費用。所以我們很期待未來如果能夠推出節能績效保證專案的話，讓這些醫療機構在其整個節能的過程裡面可以有更好的一些成果出來，我們期待部長可以持續協助我們整個醫療機構，在這方面可以有更好的成效的一些方案，幫助所有的醫療機構，把這個事情做好。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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:88.84,"end":99.41,"text":"理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代"},{"start":102.366,"end":130.016,"text":"部長請簡單回答報告委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的"},{"start":130.336,"end":146.728,"text":"因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加"},{"start":149.144,"end":173.753,"text":"我應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不爭還檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的署去徵檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。"},{"start":174.81,"end":197.131,"text":"我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部"},{"start":198.032,"end":225.55,"text":"的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦"},{"start":228.072,"end":245.228,"text":"第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供又匯率有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,"},{"start":245.788,"end":262.314,"text":"那如果依照300元來計算臺電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額那臺電還中油都表示再可負擔的範圍我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話"},{"start":263.815,"end":288.804,"text":"那同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低這樣的說法部長應該沒有錯吧?沒錯沒錯但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳會不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對沒錯但是在昨天"},{"start":289.824,"end":308.969,"text":"您們要抱起尾聲看這個東西齁這攤會恐令翁部長業者優利受通本他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法嘛他認為多項項目啦齁這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於由於"},{"start":309.469,"end":311.431,"text":"昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上"},{"start":336.843,"end":355.849,"text":"就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦包委員其實第一個大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬"},{"start":356.369,"end":380.045,"text":"也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的"},{"start":380.385,"end":381.566,"text":"不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒"},{"start":400.24,"end":419.837,"text":"地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了但是部長你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案"},{"start":420.953,"end":428.639,"text":"到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?"},{"start":435.98,"end":464.867,"text":"我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以吧一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以委員再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦"},{"start":465.627,"end":479.119,"text":"都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧"},{"start":484.104,"end":488.607,"text":"第二件事情,匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的,我這邊具體要求,是不是可以從雲林開始?"},{"start":499.772,"end":522.506,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長再來 你看齁 部長你也講了吼 碳水路邊越快上路越好那過去齁 過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼 他也是淵娟路邊的他希望越快上路越好 但是初期可能大家都會朝這方向 這目的目標去做 他減量他也會一直持續做"},{"start":523.266,"end":541.82,"text":"但他如果把他當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的換點裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副"},{"start":542.811,"end":563.882,"text":"還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費"},{"start":566.924,"end":576.206,"text":"其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦"},{"start":592.29,"end":605.138,"text":"因為你看你一直在跟我講那種政會公關的政會啊,你的醫生一直在用劍啊,所以你不可以有樣的說你不可以去那種政會啊,你不可以去政會你就去用劍啊,你就要去上班洗澡啊,不然你是要跟我說你裡面有碳費好收,所以你就有錢好用。"},{"start":606.972,"end":630.864,"text":"所謂這樣說吧對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦"},{"start":632.265,"end":659.432,"text":"碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長欸1200塊"},{"start":662.514,"end":685.275,"text":"是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好"},{"start":686.616,"end":707.007,"text":"所以如果按照這個一千兩百塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嘛對不對對阿他如果有充分的時間他也把他計算在他的成本裡面阿就不太簡單去處理了"},{"start":708.347,"end":731.206,"text":"現在就是說如果一千二的話我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好但是你在三期六年時間成長到百分之四百你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎"},{"start":732.287,"end":741.297,"text":"我不是說另外一套的制度總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500"},{"start":743.127,"end":767.48,"text":"但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來"},{"start":769.84,"end":783.323,"text":"我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係。主席再給我一分鐘就好。金華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?"},{"start":790.342,"end":810.929,"text":"那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?"},{"start":813.252,"end":813.492,"text":"執行進度已經到96.5了"},{"start":836.647,"end":836.767,"text":"主席"},{"start":853.939,"end":871.014,"text":"那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?"},{"start":871.92,"end":871.94,"text":"劉建國"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:24:43 - 10:39:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155416","gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員早。"],["劉委員建國：部長早。部長，你可以大概跟委員會做個報告，114年度環境部的總預算案（含基金，就是全部）大約是多少？然後113年又是多少？112年又是多少？3年就好。"],["彭部長啓明：好，明年的預算（含基金）是177億，今年的話應該是173億左右，我們少了一點多億。"],["劉委員建國：少了一點多億？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：那112年度呢？"],["彭部長啓明：112年度也差不多，應該也是173億左右。"],["劉委員建國：是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我只看這兩年，我印象是這兩年、處理這兩年。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，但是我問3年，幕僚可以提供嗎？你們統統不知道？你們死定了！部長剛來，他沒有辦法注意到112年度的預算，或許還講得過去，但你們都在這邊待這麼久了還不曉得。那114年度是多少？110年度又是多少？環保署變成環境部之後，預算不增反減，你們交代得過去嗎？為什麼要把環保署變成環境部，理由何在？理由何在？新部長來，有沒有什麼新的政策、有沒有什麼新興的項目是有別於環保署的那個年代？部長，請簡單回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個部分在我上任之後也觀察到，但是其實委員知道我們政府各種的公建計畫、科技預算，大概都要提早半年前送進去，所以我上任之後真的也很努力想要增加一些預算，但是行政院的額度也告訴我額度已經滿了，增加是非常有限，加上我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接，所以我們有些署是預算增加的，有些反而是減少的，因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上。所以我也希望，跟委員報告，我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制，我們希望每個部會都要提計畫，因為要有提計畫、要做事才能夠申請到錢，所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加。"],["劉委員建國：我應該這麼說，我知道部長一定會去爭取，對不對？但是怎麼會沒有爭取到，反而不增反減，這個絕對是有問題的。相關的署增減預算，這是很正常的事情，因為執行的效益、績效等等一些問題，你們去做相關的一些調整。明年要開始執行碳費的徵收，我想在某一個程度上，你又貴為新部長，應該有些新興的項目，這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算？那倒也未必，但是署變成部之後，我想基本上整個格局跟你要去掌理的事項一定是增加的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，不一樣。"],["劉委員建國：所以從預算面去看到你這個部未來整個執行面也好、執行目標也好，還有相關要做得更積極的一些事項，應該都是要增加的，所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長做討論。我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查，我剛剛就講了，如果我們連這個都不清楚，還是各個單位都不把這個事情當成是一件事情，那審預算的時候，我覺得大家就會很難過了，這是第一點。","第二點，部長，你看上週臺灣碳費的價格終於定案，對不對？一般費率是每噸300元，同時提供優惠利率，有A、B兩種方案，分別是每噸50元、還有100元，對不對？台電、中油、中鋼都已經有初估他們自己可能要繳的碳費，如果依照300元來計算，台電可能要繳15億，中油繳19億，中鋼則是2到4億，這是國營事業碳排大戶的初估金額，台電及中油都表示在可負擔的範圍，我不曉得他們怎麼會講這種話。同時，這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案，所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低。對於這樣的說法，部長，應該沒有錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好。但是在環境部提供的碳費簡報當中，最後有放上很多報導來證明碳費不會影響民生經濟的波動，部長也是這樣主張嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：OK。但是昨天聯合報就已經刊登了這個報導，表示碳費恐令萬物漲、業者憂綠色通膨，它是引用臺中經發局局長的說法，他認為多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本提高，重點是，由於我國的碳費價格比國際費率高，加上基本工資、電費同步調升，企業營運成本勢必要調高。最後一句話，中小企業面臨成本漲，也會順勢調整價格，最後帶動萬物皆漲。你還沒有回答之前，我先肯定部還有部長，在昨天禮拜天大家放棄休假的日子，馬上就用相關的數據來打臉，我是要給你肯定。但是減碳政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火，地方一直要放這種火，要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個，大家對於碳費新的制度都不瞭解，我上禮拜人在日本，某一個建商大老也喊出了一樣的話，所以我也要求我們一定要澄清，要平衡言論，我們強力做下去。我也發現其實國人對碳費是不瞭解的，所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本，而且要公開讓全民知道，今天這本是第一次在院會讓委員可以先看到，我們會讓所有的民眾都可以瞭解，我必須說很多人對這個是真的不瞭解的，而且環境部也沒有什麼廣宣的資源，我們只能努力來做。但是有一些人不瞭解，特別是某個建商大老這樣喊話，讓民眾憂心，我們會強力的去澄清，去跟他制止的，所以我們一定會這樣做。"],["劉委員建國：不是大老，它是地方政府，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：其實地方政府下午有澄清了。"],["劉委員建國：它澄清了？"],["彭部長啓明：它有一個新的說法出來了。"],["劉委員建國：OK！但是部長，你看你們的溝通，如果總預算案，環境部的總預算不減少1.7億，其實1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情、溝通的事情，你看你們整體的溝通案，到目前為止，你說溝通就困難了，不溝通會更困難，對不對？這是部長講的。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學者4場等等等，總共47場，獨缺地方政府，地方政府要不要辦？"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們會努力來辦理，因為委員比我們更瞭解地方，如果能夠找到一些有這個需求的，也希望未來在地方上能夠積極來結合辦理。"],["劉委員建國：所以我在這邊要跟部長特別要求，地方政府22個縣市，一個月內溝通完成，好不好？可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個會期我們都在立法院，所以委員再給我們多幾個月，可以嗎？"],["劉委員建國：你們坐在立法院的時間不多，我都幫你們算過了。"],["彭部長啓明：很多啦！"],["劉委員建國：第一個，沒有預算可審。第二個，你們的預算增加或不增加，你們也都沒有在緊張，召委也不一定會每次委員會都排你們，一個半月？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們努力。"],["劉委員建國：22場一個半月，OK吧？不要再讓地方政府放火了，不然你會越溝通越困難，這是你說的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情，費率定義後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通，我這邊具體要求是不是可以從雲林開始？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長。再來，部長也講了碳費如鞭，越快上路越好，過去衛福部針對菸捐也是菸捐如鞭，希望越快上路越好，初期大家可能都會朝這個方向、這個目的、目標去做，減量也會一直持續做。但它如果把它當作是成本化之後，碳費成本化之後，它覺得它可以負擔，就像剛才中油、台電講的那些話，未來就不是往減碳的這個方向走，反而是在它可負擔的範圍內去繳費，環境部變成收費大戶，還是你們讓預算減少，因為未來有碳費可以收，所以你們覺得總預算案減少是不為過的事情？我講話絕對有邏輯。如果是這個樣子的話，最後碳費成本化會導致什麼問題發生，部長應該比我更清楚，因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到要如何嚇阻，讓碳費不是從積極減碳的方向走，如果企業把它變成成本化之後，你們有什麼樣的因應作為？我沒有看到這個報告。"],["彭部長啓明：其實碳費的精神就是自主減碳，它就有很大的優惠利率，這就是委員說的內容，我也坦承我們對外的論述、溝通還真的有待加強，因為我們環境部沒有公關預算的經費。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你一直跟我說沒有這種公關的經費，你們的預算一直被減少，所以你不能一直說你沒有那個經費，你沒有那個經費就會被減少，所以你要想辦法去生出來，不然你是要跟我說明年有碳費可以收，你們有經費可以用，不是這樣說嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：再來，你的編程一定要弄出來，部長，我具體要求部長要提供給委員會參考，企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳，而不是把它可接受、可負擔範圍成本化，這樣我們的目標就不對了。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：另外還有一個滿嚴重的問題，碳費審議會議有建議兩年一期的碳費調整方案，預計2030年每噸要達到1,200元，等於明年開始，25、26是第一期，27、28是第二期，29、30是第三期，從明年開始的300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長，達到1,200元，確定要這樣做嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話，的確大家壓力會很大，但是我也跟大眾承諾過，全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率，由政府這樣收不見得效率好，所以我們也期待未來在四年內能夠研析總量管制的排放交易，這個會比較好。如果按照1,200塊收，委員說的問題的確就會跑出來，這個我們也考慮進去了，所以我們四年內會慢慢的雙軌並行，最後走到總量管制的排放交易。"],["劉委員建國：相關的企業也會有相對應的作為，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：它如果有充分的時間，它也把它計算在它的成本裡面，就枉費你都在處理了。"],["彭部長啓明：如果是1,200元的話，我相信現在所有的企業是沒辦法接受的。"],["劉委員建國：當然。"],["彭部長啓明：所以其實我們還是希望，因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的，然後有一些本地的產業我們可以給它一些免費的配額，所以其實這個部分的效率或管理會比較好。"],["劉委員建國：但是你在三期6年時間成長到百分之四百，你覺得這樣就可以消化嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我說的是另外一套制度，總量管制的排放交易，不是收碳費、碳稅，像新加坡目前預計到2030年也是要收到1,500元。"],["劉委員建國：但是部長這麼講就代表我們還有另外的……"],["彭部長啓明：新的制度，希望同步來實施。"],["劉委員建國：你的新的制度什麼時候要出來？"],["彭部長啓明：我們新的制度等於是，目前我們希望明年，明年6月我們就會組一個團到德國去，整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易，我們要有一個ETS的制度出來。"],["劉委員建國：好，我還是覺得有些問題，因為時間的關係，主席再給我1分鐘就好，經發署署長是不是有來？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你先聽一下，我請教楊署長，麥寮海淡廠是什麼狀況？2018年通過環評並要啟動興建計畫，預估2022年8月要完成，2022年5月台塑六輕發布消息，因疫情影響淡化廠的興建，要延後1年，到了2023年又延到今年10月31日，現在台塑又提出展延18個月，也就是要到2026年4月30日，但環境部是不同意，你們經發署呢？"],["楊署長志清：跟委員報告，這是我們產業園區管理局在處理的，關於它當初的進度，設備要進來的時候因為疫情影響慢了，所以才提出這樣的展延要求，這是業者不得已的措施，我們會看它實際提出的情況再來看，因為當初它是環評承諾。"],["劉委員建國：它的執行進度已經到96.5%了，為了剩下這百分之三點多要再展延18個月，經濟部沒有意見，我知道這是產園局在管的，沒有錯，但是當時整個組織架構在調整的過程裡面，我在司法及法制委員會有特別要求這件事情，你們要怎麼處理？"],["楊署長志清：委員，我回去請產業園區管理局做一個瞭解，再提供一份書面報告給委員。"],["劉委員建國：我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼，跟他回報這件事情，不能這樣處理，我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失，是不是也提出相關報告給我們參考？"],["楊署長志清：我們先提供相關進度跟書面報告給委員。"],["劉委員建國：相關進度我都知道，但是我覺得經濟部有督導的缺失，請把檢討報告提出來，兩個禮拜內，好不好？"],["楊署長志清：是。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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你看出什麼問題來"},{"start":361.834,"end":362.614,"text":"市長,這個火車開出去了,不小心,少掛一截"},{"start":385.973,"end":414.303,"text":"然後呢五星級的明日號一萬多才可以旅遊一趟真的五星級啊但是我們的表現啊是零星級的低級的錯誤真的很低級的錯誤那個杜董事長請問一下掃掛是哪一節是乘客艙還是沙發沒帶出去客廳艙還是還是那個吧台乘客艙客艙嘛所以說客人"},{"start":415.646,"end":427.593,"text":"沒有座位坐那等於說他們站著跑了幾站是吧到南港才把家掛出去對後來後來我們有做補救措施啦在南港把這個車廂再把他掛上然後才啟程"},{"start":429.212,"end":453.749,"text":"因為我覺得這個真的是很離譜啊我跟你講聽起來好笑然後但是覺得真的很低級的錯誤但是這種錯誤坦白講你知道嗎我牽了一隻牛出去吃草回家的時候我只是忘了帶牛回來那我覺得很低級啊發生什麼事情這麼大的一件事情居然會有這樣的一個情況那就請教一下這我看到兩大問題啦"},{"start":455.51,"end":472.357,"text":"第一大問題是到底多少人會參與這個每一天點車廂、掛車廂、數車廂這樣的工作第一個員工本身看單子第二個檢察人司機員這是你們工會說的司機員"},{"start":473.658,"end":475.799,"text":"臺灣鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":496.664,"end":496.944,"text":"市長你覺得你說說看對"},{"start":517.219,"end":542.782,"text":"我今天很抱歉我真的很抱歉你剛聽說對我今天才知道這個事情那這個我想我確實剛聽起來感覺是不可思議啦那這個部分我想我們會再請那個台鐵針對剛講他整個的標準作業程序再來檢視看到底是哪一個環節錯了或是要再增加double check的一個功能"},{"start":543.476,"end":546.099,"text":"昨天媒體在跟你講前天的事 台鐵第一時間回覆"},{"start":559.184,"end":576.434,"text":"有沒有這件事我來查證我聽了這是第二個恐怖的事情就是說你double check現場檢查的機制居然沒有辦法這個事情確實做好第二個呢出問題了不管大事小事你居然沒有積極的回報的一個制度"},{"start":577.475,"end":577.955,"text":"跟委員報告我知道"},{"start":605.242,"end":620.943,"text":"而且當下我們查證跟委員報告剛剛委員講的這一個疏失不是列車長或者是司機員我剛剛跟委員報告是我們的車號還有我們的這個吊車場的主管要負責"},{"start":622.096,"end":639.487,"text":"好那其他人都不用沒有人double check就掛錯就錯了你們未來機制會不會改變啊這個玩笑不要開啦是是是跟委員報告齁這個的確齁我們的double check跟整個機制齁我們會充分的檢討以後不發生這種事"},{"start":641.504,"end":667.58,"text":"這個因為我是覺得真的非常非常離譜而且那種五星級的明日日號結果明日日號真的是明天明天再來今天沒有今天車忘記掛了這個東西我是覺得真的是不行而且你們反應的機制像這種不光是這個事件的問題新聞性蠻大的交通部不知道我覺得你們距離公司化之後距離交通部真的是越來越遠這個最後"},{"start":671.563,"end":692.323,"text":"臺鐵的一個事故的一個比例大家期待的一個安全我們看到那個數字跟去年同期1到7月的比較總事故可能是有些是小的事故成長了40%行車的異常成長了40%重大事故從去年同期的0變成4你有什麼說法"},{"start":694.425,"end":713.651,"text":"各位委員報告這一個我們1到7月的包括事故還有這個異常的事件的數量的確有增加但是這有三個主要原因第一個就是今年的天災比較嚴重第二個就是我們車廂老舊我們的努力還不夠"},{"start":714.611,"end":743.13,"text":"那第三個就是我們現在在推安全文化所以我們今年開始公司我們對於事故事件我們想列的這個項目有別於以往我們用重研的這個角度來列這個事故事件所以有多列好我最後再說不光是交通部網站全民包括所有委員都在關心公司化之後到底做了什麼改變我們希望你們要自力自強謝謝"},{"start":744.892,"end":745.112,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:18:05 - 10:30:33","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155414","gazette":{"lineno":363,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時18分）謝謝主席。有請我們交通部伍次長。"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["魯委員明哲：臺鐵杜董事長。"],["主席：請杜微董事長。"],["魯委員明哲：還有運安會林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["伍次長勝園：召委好。"],["魯委員明哲：好。其實因為正好從上一屆立委到這一屆，我全程經歷到臺鐵整個公司化的過程，我感覺公司化的過程，除了改變財政、營運當時為主要的一個目標，其實大家都說要成立公司，當時的小英總統說成立臺鐵公司來改善行車安全，杜董事長也宣示安全、安全、安全！安全是不是公司化……很多東西、業務，你帶走了，有些留在交通部，到底現在情況是怎麼樣？首先來看看，我們臺鐵的大體檢，體檢都會做完嘛，你們大體檢做完沒有？因為這是從普悠瑪事件2018年10月份成立的，政府宣示的大體檢，體檢現在做完沒有？因為你宣布還沒做完嘛！現在還有安全改革十七項沒有做完，組織改革、營運改革總共兩項，現在只有十九項還沒有解除列管，可是這個大體檢是2018年成立，那時候是很感人啦，第一次院級的，由政務委員來帶領跨部會，然後成立這個，然後85天之後就變成中體檢，中體檢就丟給你們臺鐵，那時候臺鐵還在交通部，現在呢？今年1月1日，你們就帶著走了，由臺鐵公司自己去成立。我是覺得你們現在還沒有解除列管，因為很多是安全改革的部分，董事長說一下，那個急迫性怎麼樣？"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，其實這個是還沒有獲得交通部解除列管，不是沒有做，現在所有一百四十四項總體檢的改善事項，我們都有在推動，其中只有三項是屬於中長程的，我們還在持續努力，其他的我們都已經提報給交通部了，其中就是這邊講的十九項，部裡面認為我們提供的資料或者是事證還不完全，所以現在還在補充當中。"],["魯委員明哲：好。次長，因為要解除列管，還是要送到我們交通部嘛？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["魯委員明哲：交通部，我覺得軌道的部分，你是專家啦，這個還沒有解除列管的話，就簡單，你送的文件或者改善措施沒有受到你們完整的認可，所以還沒有解除列管。我想請教一下，因為過去您是鐵道局局長，現在接次長，對於一百四十四項解除列管一百二十幾項，也是不錯嘛！你覺得解除列管是不是真的解決了？解除列管是不是解決問題？就請教一下，你覺得呢？"],["伍次長勝園：報告委員，當然不是做完以後，解除就沒有問題，後續鐵道局在監理方面，它還是針對這些解除的、過去曾經被列管的案件，再做一些檢查，重複地再去看一下有沒有再犯，我想不是我們解除以後就不再管了，這些是因為我們認為它做得、講得不夠清楚，或做得沒有一個完整的、具體的作為出來，所以我們不同意它解除列管。"],["魯委員明哲：所以我是覺得，很多民眾也認為體檢總是要有個期間，2018年到現在，到十月二十幾號就快6年，滿6年了，你的體檢還沒做完，我也覺得真的交通部要好好下來督導一下。體檢做好了，譬如剛剛好多委員講過的Safety，就安全管理系統，你們導入嘛！你們也報告好幾次，導入了半天，應該去年年底，有媒體去請教你們的員工，抽測，滿多員工對於什麼是SMS都搞不太清楚。以前在企業搞那個ISO9000，你知道嗎？每一個員工都很重要，你知道嗎？不是他能夠在這個系統上面，十二個大指標，他能做什麼，而是他必須知道他不要去犯錯，他可能犯錯。這個是你們已經在109年（2020年）一百四十四項裡面的列管，當時已經解解除列管了，解除列管這麼多年，我們真的希望能夠紮實。","再來，鳴日號事件是真的還假的？"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，是真的。"],["魯委員明哲：是真的。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個是因為我們負責編組車號的同仁，他電報看錯，所以他在掛車廂的時候，漏掛了一節。"],["魯委員明哲：好，運安會林主委，這個聽起來感覺是小事，不小心看錯報告。你知道嗎？有點感覺──哎呀！看錯報告了，原來要飛747，我怎麼開了737來了，客人不夠載。我覺得這是一個……你覺得這是大事還是小事啊？林主委，你是運安會，你覺得這一件事情也許對於運輸安全並沒有實質的影響，沒有看到，可是員工的態度或者員工訓練上面，你看出什麼問題？"],["林主任委員信得：我想這是組織文化的問題，他現在在推組織文化SMS改善，委員剛在螢幕上提到員工不清楚什麼是SMS，這確實是我們有碰過，確實是要把它宣導到扎根到最基層去，確實是沒問題的。"],["魯委員明哲：好。次長，火車開出去了，不小心少掛一節，然後五星級的鳴日號，一萬多才可以旅遊一趟，真的五星級，但是我們的表現是零星級的、低級的錯誤，真的很低級的錯誤。杜董事長，請問一下，少掛是哪一節？是乘客艙，還是沙發沒帶出去？客廳艙還是吧檯？"],["杜董事長微：乘客艙。"],["魯委員明哲：客艙嘛！所以客人沒有座位坐，等於他們站著跑了幾站是不是？到南港才把它加掛出去？"],["杜董事長微：對，後來我們有做補救措施啦！在南港再把這個車廂掛上，然後才啟程。"],["魯委員明哲：我覺得這個真的是很離譜啊！聽起來好笑，但是覺得真的是很低級的錯誤，但是這種錯誤……坦白講你知道嗎？我牽了一隻牛出去吃草，回家的時候我只是忘了帶牛回來，我覺得很低級啊！發生什麼事情？這麼大的一件事情居然會有這樣的情況，那就請教一下，這我看到兩大問題，第一大問題是到底多少人會參與每一天點車廂、掛車廂、數車廂這樣的工作？第一個員工本身，看單子。第二個檢查員、司機員，這是你們工會說的，司機員是開普悠瑪，不要開到貨車，所以要看一下到底到位沒有，對不對？第三個是列車長，對不對？列車長、司機員這麼多人都失靈，還有一些你SMS或是其他的導入，書面、黑板要寫，一定要給別人看，確認到底發生什麼事，你們原本設計這麼多的檢查措施，結果列車長也沒有double check，然後司機員也就這樣開走了，所以我覺得這是一件很危險的事，你現有的檢查制度出事了，次長，你覺得呢？你說說看。"],["伍次長勝園：對，我今天……很抱歉，真的很抱歉，這個是今天……"],["魯委員明哲：你剛聽說啊？"],["伍次長勝園：對，我今天才知道這個事情……"],["魯委員明哲：Oh my god！"],["伍次長勝園：確實剛剛聽起來，感覺是不可思議啦！這個部分我想我們會再請臺鐵針對剛剛講的整個標準作業程序，再來檢視看到底是哪一個環節錯了，或者是要再增加double check的功能。"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，第二個問題剛剛講了，就是神經末梢……不是末梢喔！這已經不是末梢了，就整個鈍掉了你知道嗎？昨天媒體在跟你講前天的事，臺鐵第一時間的回復是有沒有這件事我來查證，我聽了這是第二個恐怖的事情，就是你double check現場檢查的機制居然沒有辦法把事情確實做好。第二個，出問題了，不管大事小事，你居然沒有積極回報的制度，不光是這三個該檢查的人，而是後面救援車的人又多一個駕駛，又開車出去了，救援的人員居然整個……你們不知道，要不然你就是裝。","我再問一下董事長，請問一下昨天媒體請教你的時候，你們第一時間，我不知道是不是你回答說：抱歉！不清楚，我們馬上來查證是否屬實。你是真的不知道是不是？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，跟委員報告，我知道，而且當下我們查證……跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的這一個疏失，不是列車長或者是司機員，我剛剛跟委員報告是我們的車號，還有我們的調車場的主管要負責。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那其他人都不用……沒有人double check，掛錯就錯了，你們未來的機制會不會改變？這個玩笑不要開啦！"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，的確double check跟整個機制我們會充分地檢討，以後不發生這種事。"],["魯委員明哲：因為我是覺得真的非常非常離譜，而且是那種五星級的鳴日號，結果鳴日號真的是明天再來，今天沒有，今天車忘記掛了，這個東西我是覺得真的是不行，而且你們反映的機制，像這種不光是這個事件的問題，新聞性滿大的，你交通部不知道，我覺得你們公司化之後距離交通部真的是越來越遠。","最後，臺鐵的一個事故比例，大家期待的安全，我們看到那個數字跟去年同期1到7月的比較，可能有些是小的事故，但總事故成長了40%，行車的異常也成長了40%，重大事故從去年同期的0變成4，你有什麼說法？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們1到7月包括事故，還有異常事件的數量的確有增加，但是這有三個主要原因，第一個就是今年的天災比較嚴重；第二個就是我們車廂老舊，我們的努力還不夠；第三個就是我們現在在推安全文化，所以今年開始公司對於事故、事件，我們詳列的項目有別於以往，我們用從嚴的角度來列事故、事項，所以有多列出來。"],["魯委員明哲：好。我最後再說，不光是交通部，我看全民包括所有委員都在關心公司化之後到底做了什麼改變，我們希望你們要自立自強，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委。","接下來邀請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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次長好次長我們今天來關心鐵道的安全台灣大概一個最危險的就是平交道那我想請教杜局長我們台鐵為了改善鐵道的安全在2021年我們3月決標了一個1424個平交道的遮斷基了"},{"start":44.406,"end":47.068,"text":"這個案子我們的合約的規定是在明年的7月"},{"start":65.9,"end":79.296,"text":"現在正在加緊的建置中那目前已經有做的聽說可以通過驗收的只有30%目前已經裝上去裝上去就是在使用的接近400具你有通過驗收嗎"},{"start":81.08,"end":95.389,"text":"沒有,這個,這不是驗收這個是裝上去他就在使用對,可以用,可以用嗎?你不驗收你怎麼知道可不可以用?不是驗收是我們有去驗證他的功能都確保了才能有達到安全嗎?有"},{"start":96.452,"end":119.6,"text":"那這1424個裝上去希望可以改善我們平交道的一個建築安全是 對不對因為這是台鐵第一次啊臺鐵自己寫規格全機國產化的對要全面更新鐵道這段機對這是國產化的這是國產化另外我想請教那臺南的鐵路地下化聽說要再延期"},{"start":122.093,"end":128.33,"text":"臺南鐵路地下化工程會延宕主要是因為挖出了所謂的那個遺跡"},{"start":130.168,"end":157.254,"text":"就是有一些地下的歷史文物是不是這樣又挖出了古蹟對跟我們報告確實這個臺南鐵路地下化受了影響其中一大部分是所謂的遺址的關係就是文質的關係那現在已經處理差不多現在我們的後年就是在115年我們確定一定可以來通測這我想我們會掌握沒有問題臺南鐵路地下化工程測試應該也很少是"},{"start":159.514,"end":183.795,"text":"那因為挖出了大概20幾個遺址,遺跡啦,古跡啦,對不對?對那台南今年建成400年啦,因為地下隨便挖都會有古跡啦那遇到了我們就是解決嘛,只是希望這個速度效率上那現在因為挖出了古跡而停工多久?供期停工"},{"start":185.388,"end":211.547,"text":"跟委員報告我們整個沿線總共挖出來20處每一個地方受影響的程度不同最長的是到26個月26個月兩年停工兩年那現在全部復工了嗎?都可以復工了嗎?我們在8月底已經全數處理完畢那最主要是東門路橋這個前後兩側那這個地方已經處理完畢然後現在全數的在進行工程的開發當中"},{"start":212.648,"end":231.994,"text":"也就是說挖出了20處的遺址、古蹟等等,現在到8月處理完畢,現在復工了嗎?全面復工了,對不對?是的那因為你這樣子停工,你看有的停兩年,那也造成工程經費,因為計畫要修正,工程經費會大增我聽說你們現在預估經費會增加76億多,這部分有確定嗎?"},{"start":235.575,"end":255.843,"text":"是的,我們已經報三修計畫到行政院在今年7月的時候現在正在根據國安會意見修正當中經費有問題嗎?目前看起來應該經費並沒有重大問題這位總經費由336億,臺南市的鐵路地下化市區的鐵路地下化工程由336億可能會增加到413億是的,413億"},{"start":259.891,"end":278.56,"text":"希望能夠工程能夠圓滿順利這台南市民期待非常久了對市區的交通的改善非常大是的我們以115年年底為這個最重要的目標來努力所以現在預計大概第一階段通車會到什麼時候115年年底2026年年底全線全面完工全線要到119"},{"start":288.843,"end":289.604,"text":"主要是因為用地的關係"},{"start":303.725,"end":321.378,"text":"希望能夠儘速,儘速能夠,現在已經全線復工了,希望能夠儘速完成。這個臺南鐵路地交化對於臺南的市區的整體發展以及交通安全這個是非常重要的。但除了這個以外,我們後面還有永康的鐵路地交化的延伸,是不是這樣。"},{"start":322.859,"end":326.442,"text":"另外還有一個就是新式的鐵路高加化這個部分目前呢?"},{"start":342.703,"end":357.317,"text":"這個現在還在臺南市政府還沒有報到交通部這邊來那這個經費在交通部也已經同意了同意要執行這個計畫嘛臺南市政府送上來沒有還沒有我們希望臺南市政府也盡快把這個計畫修正確定後能夠送上來"},{"start":358.118,"end":377.563,"text":"所以你如果鐵路地下化從台南市區然後到永康再繼續延伸整個永康全線也鐵路地下化然後到新市它就開始高價了讓你市區永康和新市都不會再有鐵路平交道了也不會再有什麼路橋或地下寒凍等等"},{"start":378.923,"end":402.117,"text":"對於交通的改善,尤其是南科,你知道南科就在永康路的地方,就在新市,這也會有很大的改善。另外就是仁德,仁德的立體鐵路高架,這個地方也爭取多年,這個地方市政府應該也在做可能性評估,就仁德的鐵路高架,還有上化車站的改建,"},{"start":403.418,"end":428.654,"text":"至於上化未來的鐵路就是說所謂的鐵路整體高架這可能是另外一個計畫但是說上化火車站因為現在前後站沒有路可以通了大家知道這南科全世界最重要的半導體生產基地上化火車站前後站沒有路了只能走地下道這個地方趕快改建好不好因為時間的關係請教一下高鐵的政總經理"},{"start":432.011,"end":437.036,"text":"委員好總經理大家知道臺南這幾年快速發展"},{"start":438.24,"end":466.194,"text":"尤其臺南除了南科以外現在包括沙崙科學園區幾乎很多我們國家重要的研究單位都進駐在這個地方那明天總統也會到沙崙去主持中研院南部分院的正式開幕現在AI生態園區也在陽明交大什麼綠能研究單位幾乎國家最重要的"},{"start":467.194,"end":492.953,"text":"單位都進入在這裡那本席我們也爭取到了蘇華瀑蘇華瀑的治安院蘇華瀑的社會產業發展署也會設在沙崙所以現在全台灣的車站高鐵站成長率最高的就台南站近站成長率全國第二只輸給南港但初站就是目的地是台南站的成長率也是全國最高"},{"start":495.187,"end":520.634,"text":"總經理知道這個數字吧?確實是有很大幅的成長很多人都到台南去了那你台南站的進出現在原來的設計我相信已經遠遠超乎你當時設計的這個站體了所以現在每次那個旅客到站進出都要排隊排很長因為你所有的上下月台只有一個小小的守護堤"},{"start":522.165,"end":539.407,"text":"我不知道高鐵未來有沒有提早因應的一個規劃你像台中高鐵站有4個守護梯上下台南高鐵站只有小小一個可能當時啊當年高鐵通車的時候也沒有把台南站當作什麼重點你知道吧"},{"start":542.034,"end":565.485,"text":"當年台南高鐵站設在什麼地方各位知道吧沙崙沙崙旁邊就是台南監獄啊什麼地方會設監獄就那個偏僻到不能再偏僻的地方才會設監獄高鐵站就設在旁邊啊但是也因為這樣啊讓現在台南站有高鐵有一個很大的發展腹地就是附近的土地非常非常大造成現在反而當時的"},{"start":568.387,"end":568.968,"text":"臺南高鐵在未來高鐵公司有沒有什麼樣的因應計畫?"},{"start":581.716,"end":608.272,"text":"委員報告確實我們人成長很多那事實上我們也因為這樣的需要我們在班次方面所以一直在增加尤其是這個所謂台南的直達車這部分我們就做了很多的增班對那至於手扶梯這個部分的話以目前來講確實在尖峰時代是比較擁擠不過目前看來還是可以用但是如果委員有這樣的一個建議的話我想我們"},{"start":609.273,"end":609.493,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:07:20 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10:17:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155413","gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時7分）本席邀請我們交通部伍次長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請伍次長、請楊局長。"],["林委員俊憲：還有我們臺鐵的杜董事長。"],["主席：請杜微董事長。"],["林委員俊憲：以及高鐵的鄭總經理。"],["主席：請鄭總經理。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長好。次長，我們今天來關心鐵道的安全，臺灣大概一個最危險的就是平交道，我想請教杜董事長，我們臺鐵為了改善鐵道的安全，在2021年3月，我們決標了一個1,424個平交道的遮斷機的案子，對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["林委員俊憲：號稱是智慧型的平交道的遮斷機，最先進的，1,424個，照理講應該要完成了吧。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告……"],["林委員俊憲：現在聽說完成驗收的只有3成。"],["杜董事長微：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["林委員俊憲：現在是怎樣？"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，這個案子我們合約的規定是在明年7月，現在正在加緊建置中。"],["林委員俊憲：目前已經有做的，聽說可以通過驗收的只有30%。"],["杜董事長微：目前已經裝上去，就是在使用的接近四百具。"],["林委員俊憲：有通過驗收嗎？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，這個不是驗收，這個是裝上去，它就在使用。"],["林委員俊憲：就可以用嗎？"],["杜董事長微：對，可以用，沒有問題。"],["林委員俊憲：可以用嗎？你不驗收你怎麼知道可不可以用？"],["杜董事長微：不是驗收，是我們有去驗證它的功能都確保了，才能……"],["林委員俊憲：有達到安全嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["林委員俊憲：這1,424個裝上去，希望可以改善我們平交道的進出安全。"],["杜董事長微：是，可以。"],["林委員俊憲：因為這是臺鐵第一次自己寫規格，全機國產化的。"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["林委員俊憲：要全面更新鐵道遮斷機。"],["杜董事長微：對，這是國產化的。"],["林委員俊憲：另外我想請教，聽說臺南的鐵路地下化要再延期，臺南鐵路地下化工程之所以會延宕，主要是因為挖出了所謂的遺跡，就是有一些地下的歷史文物，是不是這樣？因為挖出了古蹟。"],["伍次長勝園：對。跟委員報告，確實臺南鐵路地下化受了影響，其中有一大部分是所謂的遺址的關係，就是文資的關係，現在已經處理差不多了，在後（115）年，我們確定一定可以通車，我想我們會掌握，沒有問題。"],["林委員俊憲：臺南鐵路地下化工程次長應該也很熟啦！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["林委員俊憲：因為挖出了大概二十幾個遺跡、古蹟，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["林委員俊憲：臺南今年建城400年，地下隨便挖都會有古蹟，當然遇到了，我們就是解決嘛。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["林委員俊憲：只是希望這個速度、效率上……現在因為挖出古蹟而停工多久？工期停工。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，我們整個沿線總共挖出來20處。"],["林委員俊憲：20處遺跡。"],["楊局長正君：每一個地方受影響的程度不同，最長的是到26個月。"],["林委員俊憲：26個月？2年啦，停工2年。"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["林委員俊憲：現在全部復工了嗎？都可以復工了嗎？"],["楊局長正君：我們在8月底已經全數處理完畢，最主要是東門陸橋前後兩側，這個地方已經處理完畢，現在全數在進行工程的開挖當中。"],["林委員俊憲：也就是說，挖出了20處的遺跡、遺址、古蹟等等，到8月處理完畢，現在復工了嘛。"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["林委員俊憲：全面復工了，對不對？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["林委員俊憲：因為你這樣子停工，你看有的停2年，也造成工程經費……因為計畫要修正，工程經費也會大增，聽說你們現在預估經費會增加七十六億多，這部分有確定嗎？"],["楊局長正君：是的，我們已經報三修計畫到行政院，在今年7月的時候，現在正在根據國發會的意見修正當中。"],["林委員俊憲：經費有問題嗎？"],["楊局長正君：目前看起來經費應該並沒有重大的問題。"],["林委員俊憲：所以總經費由336億……臺南市的鐵路地下化，市區的鐵路地下化工程，可能會由336億增加到413億？"],["楊局長正君：是的，413億。"],["林委員俊憲：希望工程能夠圓滿順利，臺南市民期待非常久，這對市區的交通改善非常大。"],["楊局長正君：是的，我們以115年年底為最重要的目標來努力。"],["林委員俊憲：所以現在預計第一階段通車會到什麼時候？"],["楊局長正君：115年年底。"],["林委員俊憲：115年年底即2026年底。"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["林委員俊憲：全線全面完工？"],["楊局長正君：全線要到118、119年，後面還有2個車站。"],["林委員俊憲：算120年好了，因為還有2個車站──林森站和南臺南站要做。"],["楊局長正君：是，主要是因為用地的關係。"],["林委員俊憲：要到民國120年（2031年）。"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["林委員俊憲：你看這個工程拖了這麼久，我們希望能夠儘速，現在已經全線復工了，希望能夠儘速完成。"],["楊局長正君：好。"],["林委員俊憲：臺南鐵路地下化對臺南的市區的整體發展以及交通安全是非常重要的，除了這個以外，我們後面還有鐵路地下化延伸至永康，是不是這樣？"],["伍次長勝園：永康的部分我們已經送到行政院去……"],["林委員俊憲：有到行政院了嘛。"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["林委員俊憲：這個在前部長的時候有，包括經費、包括計畫都已經有確定了嘛。"],["伍次長勝園：對、對。"],["林委員俊憲：在李孟諺部長的時候，是不是這樣？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["林委員俊憲：另外還有一個就是新市的鐵路高架化，目前這個部分呢？"],["楊局長正君：這個現在還在臺南市政府，還沒有報到交通部。"],["林委員俊憲：這個經費在交通部也已經同意了，有同意要執行這個計畫嘛，臺南市政府送上來了沒有？"],["楊局長正君：還沒有。"],["林委員俊憲：好，我們希望臺南市政府儘快把這個計畫修正確定後能夠送上來。所以如果鐵路地下化，從臺南市區，然後到永康再繼續延伸，整個永康全線也鐵路地下化，然後到新市，它就開始高架了，讓市區、永康和新市都不會再有鐵路平交道，也不會再有什麼陸橋或地下涵洞等等，對於交通的改善，尤其南科，你知道南科就在新市嘛，這個也會有很大的改善。","另外就是仁德的鐵路立體化、高架化，這個地方也爭取多年了，這個地方臺南市政府應該也在做可行性評估，就是仁德的鐵路高架化，還有善化車站的改建，至於善化未來的鐵路，就是所謂的鐵路整體高架，這可能是另外一個計畫，但是善化火車站現在前後站沒有路可以通，大家都知道，南科是全世界最重要的半導體生產基地，現在善化火車站前後站沒有路了，只能走地下道，這個地方趕快改建好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["林委員俊憲：因為時間的關係，我要請教一下高鐵的鄭總經理。"],["鄭總經理光遠：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：總經理，大家都知道，臺南這幾年快速發展，尤其臺南除了南科以外，現在包括沙崙科學園區，幾乎很多我們國家重要的研究單位都進駐在這個地方，明天總統也會到沙崙去主持中研院南部分院的正式開幕，現在AI生態園區也在，陽明交大、什麼綠能研究單位等等，幾乎國家最重要的單位都進駐在這裡。本席也爭取到數發部的資安院、數發部的數位產業發展署也會設在沙崙，所以現在全臺灣的高鐵站成長率最高的就是臺南站，進站成長率全國第二，只輸給南港，但出站的成長率，就是目的地是臺南站的，成長率也是全國最高，總經理知道這個數字吧？"],["鄭總經理光遠：確實是有很大幅的成長。"],["林委員俊憲：很多人都到臺南去，原來臺南站進出的設計，我相信現在已經遠遠超乎當時設計的站體，所以現在每次旅客到站，進出都要排隊排很長，因為所有上下月臺只有一個小小的手扶梯，我不知道高鐵未來有沒有提早因應的規劃？你像臺中高鐵站有四個手扶梯上下，臺南高鐵站只有小小一個，可能當年高鐵通車的時候，也沒有把臺南站當成什麼重點，你知道吧？"],["鄭總經理光遠：跟委員報告……"],["林委員俊憲：當年臺南高鐵站設在什麼地方，各位知道吧？沙崙，沙崙旁邊就是臺南監獄，什麼地方會設監獄？就是那個偏僻到不能再偏僻的地方才會設監獄，高鐵站就設在旁邊，但是也因為這樣，讓現在高鐵臺南站有一個很大的發展腹地，附近的土地非常大，當時很偏僻的一個設址地點，反而造成後來有一個發展的大空間，但現在進出站人口這麼多，請問臺南高鐵站，未來高鐵公司有沒有什麼樣的因應計畫？"],["鄭總經理光遠：跟委員報告，確實人成長很多，實質上我們也因為這樣的需要，在班次方面是一直在增加，尤其是所謂臺南的直達車這部分，我們就做了很多的增班。"],["林委員俊憲：有，我們有看過。"],["鄭總經理光遠：對，至於手扶梯這個部分，以目前來講，確實在尖峰時段是比較擁擠，不過目前看來還是可以用，但是如果委員有這樣的建議，我想我們很誠心地繼續檢討，看看有沒有檢討空間……"],["林委員俊憲：臺南站它每一年成長率都會全國最高，現在進出月台，你看臺中四個手扶梯出入，臺南只有一個，這部分你應該要有一個及早規劃，好不好？"],["鄭總經理光遠：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：本席因為時間的關係，謝謝次長、謝謝各位。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們接下來邀請魯明哲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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Home那麼去找然後去尋求去找一些人頭然後來去用這個東西那這一部分的話我就覺得這一部分我們現在針對這個問題我們採取的方式就是說我們第一個我們在會跟會員主要你的這個會員資料裡面有有這個登錄那麼我們就會用主動的email來告訴你"},{"start":596.88,"end":625.51,"text":"然後當然你就會知道這個我是不是被盜用了那同時我們要防範的話我們還做了另外一個工作很重要就是說我們在年底前用雙重驗證除了說跟旅客確認這個是你的號碼你的帳密密碼以外我們會再用one time password然後來確認這個還是你的那這樣的話我們能夠把這個會員被盜的這個部分完全解除"},{"start":626.01,"end":631.738,"text":"但是我要跟各位報告就是說跟委員報告就是說這在系統上並沒有外洩的這個問題好 謝謝委員"},{"start":634.71,"end":659.911,"text":"那就是說有發生這樣子的一個會員點數被盜那當然就是有顯露出我們治安防護上還是有一些問題那我們也希望就是說高鐵公司因為我們知道這個高鐵的行車安全非常重要那目前也傳出很多國外的駭客在侵入我們政府的相關機關所以我們也希望就是說我們這個高鐵公司或者是台鐵針對這個行車安全的這個治安的防護要特別的"},{"start":663.955,"end":664.095,"text":"陳素月議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:55:39 - 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password來確認這個資料還是你的，這樣我們能夠把會員被盜的這個部分完全解決，但是我要跟各位報告、跟委員報告，就是這在系統上並沒有外洩的問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：就是說有發生會員點數被盜一事，當然就是有顯露出我們資安防護上還是有一些問題，我們也希望高鐵公司……因為我們知道高鐵的行車安全非常重要，目前也傳出很多國外的駭客在侵入我們政府的相關機關，所以我們也希望我們高鐵公司或者是臺鐵，針對行車安全的資安防護要特別地重視以及加以防範，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席（陳委員素月）：接下來邀請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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Bank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金。那我們是10月7號才宣布的,也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?"},{"start":39.625,"end":54.495,"text":"沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了這是人家建議的啦那我們才是委員委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定OK"},{"start":54.955,"end":69.326,"text":"我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊我們是在9塊那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個是你之前有先去做盤查嗎還是做調查還是做怎麼樣的一個結論會有300塊的這個這樣那個定價"},{"start":72.508,"end":90.57,"text":"這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPI GDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢"},{"start":91.17,"end":105.52,"text":"每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會 這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆這是怎麼訂來的?"},{"start":107.729,"end":125.525,"text":"20兆是看時機的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式"},{"start":126.005,"end":140.667,"text":"對 我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那也到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底"},{"start":141.869,"end":165.69,"text":"如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳"},{"start":165.97,"end":183.802,"text":"如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要"},{"start":184.482,"end":184.502,"text":"盧縣一"},{"start":206.952,"end":232.663,"text":"如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室淇淋管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分"},{"start":233.183,"end":245.351,"text":"那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道的是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界"},{"start":247.845,"end":260.553,"text":"報告委員其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話它的費率是很低的而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值對 K值再乘以那K值是2.5萬噸對所以你的第16頁是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎對對對OK"},{"start":269.588,"end":296.303,"text":"那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?"},{"start":297.274,"end":315.95,"text":"減碳跟減碳有關係的或是跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面不是給地方是給中央的去統籌規劃應該是這個樣子但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的所以這個未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到"},{"start":320.834,"end":321.234,"text":"所以這個難易度"},{"start":345.552,"end":363.901,"text":"有差別,但是委員可以看一下那個我們很多前20大排碳大戶的這個ESG報告,其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的,但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了,所以這個部分我們會跟這個經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業"},{"start":367.142,"end":367.903,"text":"大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費"},{"start":382.642,"end":388.184,"text":"歐洲的負稅就很高,他們收入也很高,例如說我所知道的瑞典,他們是137塊美元"},{"start":402.668,"end":420.296,"text":"那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛"},{"start":420.956,"end":441.475,"text":"所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出"},{"start":442.666,"end":458.571,"text":"包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出"},{"start":459.191,"end":484.471,"text":"目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?其實委員報委員那個真的很辛苦這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊就是你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長"},{"start":488.022,"end":488.463,"text":"謝謝盧縣一委員的發言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:16:19 - 10:24:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155411","gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時16分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：盧委員早。"],["盧委員縣一：彭部長早。在談碳費之前，我們先看一下世界的趨勢。因為我在大院的時候有講過，很奇怪，World Bank在5月29日就已經預告我們碳費的價值大概是在9塊美金，我們是10月7日才宣布的，也就是說，這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：這個期刊是5月29日的期刊，為什麼它就已經知道我們是9塊美金了？"],["彭部長啓明：這是人家建議的，我們還是審議委員會的委員共同做的決定。"],["盧委員縣一：我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭的167塊，我們是在9塊，大陸的話，北京是在15塊。我們訂這個300塊之前，你有先去做盤查、調查，還是做怎麼樣的一個結論，才會有300塊這樣一個定價？"],["彭部長啓明：這是我們的碳費審議委員會跟各方面討論出來的結果，因為他們有考慮到我們對於CPI、GDP的衝擊，當然，我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都……"],["盧委員縣一：可是2030年你說要達1,200到1,600的水準。"],["彭部長啓明：是建議，他們是建議。"],["盧委員縣一：那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢？"],["彭部長啓明：每兩年會調整一次。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，所以50塊跟100塊的優惠也會逐年調整？"],["彭部長啓明：會，這個要經過審議委員會共同來討論，還要看實際上的執行狀況。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛聽你說你去了日本，知道他們要發行債券20兆，你認為它那20兆是怎麼訂來的？"],["彭部長啓明：20兆是看實際的需求，例如說，他們是三個部會一起來合作……"],["盧委員縣一：我們臺灣是不是也要做這樣的規劃？不然你說60億太少了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，其實減碳真的是……"],["盧委員縣一：你聽到這樣一個說法，我們臺灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們的確在520之後就動起來，但是我必須跟委員說，這是一筆很大的預算，到時候也希望委員多多支持。"],["盧委員縣一：我比較想知道的是，臺灣的森林有210萬公頃，這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底？"],["彭部長啓明：如果有一些既定的、已經開發的、已經既成在那個地方的是沒有辦法算，但是過去如果是有些空地或是沒有辦法好好維持……"],["盧委員縣一：所以我們210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底？"],["彭部長啓明：某一部分是，但是這個到底量是多少，我還要再調查，因為目前是由農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會來負責自然碳匯的。"],["盧委員縣一：好，如果這個210萬公頃是大家的資產，是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情，全世界都是一樣，特別是這種所謂的公正轉型，例如說很多原住民的朋友，這個都必須考慮進去。"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思就是要拉到這一點，是不是有可能我們的禁伐補償會從所謂的綠色存底來做一個結合，或者是去考量一個方法，看能不能把禁伐補償也當作是一個綠色存底，當作是基金的一個規模，然後以後如果在運用金額上面，是不是也可以援助原民會這邊的經費籌措？"],["彭部長啓明：如果未來是針對跟減碳有實質上相關的，我相信我們溫室氣體管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們原住民畢竟都住在山裡，每天看到的都是樹木，可是它的價值到底在哪裡？現在又被國家認定在院長所說的4萬塊，但是我們還是要想辦法讓森林有價值，所以才會想到綠色存底的部分。我知道台電及中油要負擔大概15億到19億，我們最大的產業也就是這個，我想要知道的是，產業界還是認為300塊太高，你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話，它的費率是很低的，而且還有很多的折扣。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛看了，你是減掉所謂的K值嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：再乘以……那K值是2.5萬噸嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你書面報告的第16頁所寫的是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。你說一年的收入大概是60億，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛有去算了一下，如果是60億的話，就像剛剛蘇委員講的，你有去盤點這個產業是在哪裡，以後要怎麼分配嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：你說基金的使用嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：對。"],["彭部長啓明：目前還沒有，我們現在要等溫管基金，因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立，我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題，因為後年才有錢。"],["盧委員縣一：那專款專用的意思是用在……"],["彭部長啓明：跟減碳有關係或者跟氣候變遷有關係的費用上面。"],["盧委員縣一：所以不是給地方，是給中央去統籌規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：應該是這個樣子，但是我相信地方的減碳也是很重要的，所以未來應該也會有一部分是跟地方來合作。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到？"],["彭部長啓明：如何來達到？"],["盧委員縣一：對，比如它本來是要交300塊，它怎麼樣來使用50塊這個費率？它要怎麼努力？"],["彭部長啓明：以50塊來講，它基本上要符合國際最嚴苛的標準，也就是說，它減碳的企圖心……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是，是不是很難達成的意思？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我們臺灣有些企業是可以挑戰這個50塊的，但是大多數的企業可能是走100塊的模式。"],["盧委員縣一：是，所以這個難易度……"],["彭部長啓明：有差別，但是委員其實可以看一下我們前20大排碳大戶的ESG報告，其實他們寫的都很清楚，他們的企圖心是很旺盛的，所以有些企業是沒有問題的，但是我也坦承，有些企業、傳統產業本身經營就比較辛苦了，所以這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來討論如何幫忙企業，但是這個還是屬於經濟部要幫忙的層次，我們環境部一定會積極地配合、幫忙業界，因為有些企業受到地緣政治的影響，基本上近期經營都有點困難。"],["盧委員縣一：大家比較緊張的就是個人到底要不要繳碳費？"],["彭部長啓明：個人不用。"],["盧委員縣一：對，可是在先進國家每一個人願意負擔的碳價值是多少，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：每個國家不一樣。"],["盧委員縣一：大概average是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，因為歐洲的賦稅很高，他們的收入也很高，例如我所知道的瑞典，他們是137塊美元，涵蓋了大概六成左右。"],["盧委員縣一：就我看的期刊，以每一個人願意負擔的價值來說，如果他認為森林很有價值，願意保存這樣一個大森林，他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金，也就是說，我們如果2,300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話，這就是我們的一個底嘛！所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好，認為每一個人都要付出這樣的價值來承擔減碳的活動，或者是實踐我們遠大的夢想，是不是你也要開始著手去計畫這個4塊錢美金要怎麼讓大家願意付出？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這次要收這281家，我們就快要去掉半條命了，如果要跟每個人收，我相信這個很困難。"],["盧委員縣一：可是你們2050年要達到零排放，你一定要適當、長遠地規劃我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的付出。"],["彭部長啓明：目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，這個算是一個夢想，是不是也要開始有這樣的想法讓國人知道？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個真的很辛苦，跟每個人收個4塊美金，這個是很辛苦，發4塊美金比較快樂、比較容易。"],["盧委員縣一：當然是啊，可以要作為一個零排放的國家，一定要做出相當的努力，所以這個方向也要考慮，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我研究一下，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的發言。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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對不對那這個基金明年後年開始收你的預估這個基金到最後差不多會有多少規模60億後年後年5月會收到60億那最後也是60億"},{"start":45.373,"end":47.338,"text":"大概是60億,如果大家都認真檢探的話。"},{"start":56.702,"end":81.09,"text":"就是如果說大家都不減碳的話那當然就會到300億、300、400億左右不會到1000億啦不會不會那這個基金的管理是你成立一個委員會來管理就是環境部會成立一個溫室氣體管理基金那這個也會納入各個部會一起來參與所以有包括人民團體的捐贈啊什麼都變成這個基金的規模嗎"},{"start":83.399,"end":105.414,"text":"我看你1、2、3、4、5、6條還有其他收入等等那這個基金就是有多久要來立法院報告一次這個就是我們每年的預算審議的時候就會把預算的規模提出來今天有臨時提案那第二個問題就是碳費碳費是剛剛我有聽你講臺電所發出來的電賣給"},{"start":111.334,"end":111.854,"text":"每年虧損一千億"},{"start":138.576,"end":149.542,"text":"那這樣的話他台電這樣搞出來的七八千億的那個東西他一年的碳是差不多多少是幾千萬噸還是幾"},{"start":151.653,"end":168.392,"text":"臺電大概總個排量大概是1億噸左右大概1億噸左右1億噸對我們國家大概是2億6啦但是他是讓我們大家用阿所以他自己用自己排放他自己也會排放嘛"},{"start":169.653,"end":182.922,"text":"這個產生一個問題我們像歐盟他Codex就是華典委員會他我們醫療在用的食品衛生的什麼萊克多巴胺的是有一個華典委員會那現在歐盟"},{"start":184.403,"end":213.801,"text":"到底是什麼委員會在界定這個還有這個委員會的認定比如說今天中午一個便當來這個便當產生多少碳或者是說這個便當用紙盒或者是用環環境部的用鋼盒那這樣他的碳是多少是誰在說了算誰在定考試規則誰在定那個標準我接過新加坡來的他們也在定那到底這是什麼情形"},{"start":214.395,"end":233.723,"text":"報告委員這個是每個國家它的制度不一樣所以像有些像歐洲有些國家它就直接電力業就直接就課了它是上游就課了的確有些國家是這個樣子那有些國家跟我們一樣每個國家都不一樣對我說這個產生多少碳那個產生多少碳那是誰在說他多少那是誰在說好像我都說不說的"},{"start":240.606,"end":242.093,"text":"呃...應該是說...我們請正式來"},{"start":245.965,"end":273.726,"text":"跟委員報告就是說什麼樣的活動會產生多少排放或是做一個東西出來有的變成是組織的盤查有的是產品的盤查那這個都是首先有這個國際上的標準有ISO的標準我看現在也沒什麼標準啊現在新加坡來的來跟我談的他自己訂一套標準啊歐盟要一套標準啊我們台灣是認誰認誰的是彭部長你自己認還是誰啊"},{"start":275.487,"end":296.197,"text":"我跟委員報告是說 國際的標準比較有彈性所以每一個國家它內化成 譬如說我們說產品碳足跡我們還會用本國的係數去做一個調整所以如果是自願性的產品碳足跡 我們會用這個方式處理那如果說譬如說像歐盟CBAN 它要求產品要申報產品碳含量那歐盟就會訂規這個才跟委員報告就有點像CODEX這個味道是不是"},{"start":299.719,"end":302.961,"text":"那第二個問題就是你說要補助各縣市那各縣市是用什麼標準補助各縣市啊各縣市是要幹什麼事"},{"start":323.502,"end":341.945,"text":"報告委員其實因為大家對於這個碳費過去都有一個想像空間會有個幾千億那的確有些縣市首長就跟我說他要因為他也是排蛋大屋要跟我要很多但是我必須說其實這個國際上對於這種減碳一定要有一個真的去減碳有一個量出來"},{"start":342.726,"end":363.789,"text":"因為高屏那邊工廠都在高屏,然後公司設在台北市,然後在台北市繳稅,然後在高屏那邊放雞腮,沒有生雞腮,所以現在地方政府都嘩嘩叫,那台北市市政府稅收的那麼多的稅,250萬人口他可以收到兩三千億,"},{"start":365.544,"end":367.026,"text":"所以這個部長你要注意一下"},{"start":380.243,"end":387.445,"text":"最後一個問題要問你醫療的你上次有跟邱太仁有參加一個會你說醫療部門佔的排放比例是0.9然後如果加上一些供應鏈來的未要耗材等等會達到4.4"},{"start":408.257,"end":431.761,"text":"那這個醫療院所有在做減碳啊比如說像高雄大同醫院啊他們說再怎麼減怎麼減也能減到18%而已這到底是怎麼一回事因為我們醫療院所都是那些都是要低溫像核磁共振什麼什麼那些轉流照射那個都是要18、19度的冷氣吹24小時365天的這要減碳你也沒辦法減"},{"start":434.602,"end":453.337,"text":"我那空調是佔50%的所有電費阿傑你跟我講的是說要讓空調啦什麼的耗電能夠減低嘛所以叫醫療院所安心的跟著彭副董去做那不然就剩你了阿醫療院所幹不下去要怎麼處理"},{"start":454.638,"end":480.08,"text":"幫委員醫療院所我也特別這個問題有去問過有些收碳稅的國家醫療院所都沒有收所以各位委員可以放心但是未來會不會有馬上收因為這個是救人的所以我們不會主動來處理這一塊目前我們現在是幫醫療院所如果是8000千瓦以上的公私立醫院我們現在跟經濟部合組一個深度節能團隊這要錢我們現在正在找錢所以其實"},{"start":480.6,"end":484.042,"text":"所以你是找民間的一些資源來做一個團隊來輔導所有大中小型醫院如何來檢探嗎"},{"start":502.113,"end":522.443,"text":"好,那這樣的話,我們要如何轉述給所有的醫療院所,就是要怎麼說,叫他們大家稍安勿躁,因為那個環境部會做最好妥適的安排,然後會幫我們組團隊來輔導,然後看看能不能再減碳,再減。"},{"start":525.524,"end":545.38,"text":"最後一個問題還是問,像這個醫療耗材、胃藥耗材那個產生的碳的到底一個東西出來,譬如說一瓶點滴出來耗了多少碳、碳足跡等等,這個要界定清楚啦。我看你都這樣阿札公公、青菜公公的,有的說三噸就三噸,你做兩噸掉兩噸,這樣是不良化的。"},{"start":549.624,"end":565.676,"text":"有兩種,一個是自願性減碳,那個是大家自己去提,我們這邊是碳費是比較嚴格的,一定要真的去盤查認證,碳費出來才可以,所以那個都有一定的標準。這個是方面部長要用心。好,謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:06:40 - 10:16:09","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155409","gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，我今天問你三個問題，第一個問題，你根據氣候變遷因應法第三十二條成立這個基金，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個基金明年、後年開始收，你預估這個基金到最後差不多會有多少規模？"],["彭部長啓明：後年5月會收到60億。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後也是60億？"],["彭部長啓明：大概是60億，如果大家都很認真減碳的話。"],["蘇委員清泉：像現在這樣繼續弄，到時候差不多是多少的規模？"],["彭部長啓明：如果說大家都不減碳的話，那當然就會到300億，三、四百億左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：不會到1,000億啦？"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個基金的管理是你成立一個委員會來管理？"],["彭部長啓明：環境部會成立一個溫室氣體管理基金，這個也會納入各個部會一起來參與。"],["蘇委員清泉：有包括人民、團體的捐贈等，什麼都變成這個基金的規模嘛！我看第一、二、三、四、五、六項，還有其他收入等等。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個基金多久要來立法院報告一次？"],["彭部長啓明：我們每年預算審議的時候就會把預算的規模提出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我今天有臨時提案。第二個問題就是碳費，剛剛我有聽你講，台電所發出來的電賣給民間中游、下游，然後台電自己用的電，你說差不多1,000萬噸嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：那我問你一個問題，這個問題你聽起來可能有點幼稚，但是因為大家都搞不清楚，連我都搞不清楚，台電一年的收入差不多七千出頭億，它的支出是八千多億，所以它每年虧損1,000億，這樣的話，台電搞出來七、八千億的那個東西，它一年的排碳量差不多是多少？是幾千萬噸還是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：台電總排碳量大概是1億噸左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：1億噸？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們國家大概是兩億六，但是它是讓我們大家用。"],["蘇委員清泉：它自己認的只有認1,000萬噸而已？"],["彭部長啓明：對，就是它自己用、自己排放，它自己也會排放嘛！"],["蘇委員清泉：這個產生一個問題，像歐盟的Codex法典委員會是負責我們醫療在用的食品衛生等，像萊克多巴胺是有一個法典委員會，現在歐盟到底是由什麼委員會在界定這個？還有這個委員會的認定，譬如說，今天中午一個便當來，這個便當產生多少碳，或者是這個便當用紙盒，或者像環境部是用鋼盒，這樣它的碳是多少、是誰說了算、誰在訂考試規則、誰在訂標準？我接過新加坡來的，他們也在訂，到底這是什麼情形？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是每個國家的制度不一樣，像歐洲有些國家的電力業直接就課了，它是上游就課了，的確有些國家是這個樣子，也有些國家是跟我們一樣，每個國家都不一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，我說這個產生多少碳、那個產生多少碳，它多少是誰在訂的？好像都是隨便說說，我認為都是在隨便說說。"],["彭部長啓明：應該是說……我請政次來說明。"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，什麼樣的活動會產生多少排放……"],["蘇委員清泉：或者做一個東西出來要產生……"],["施次長文真：對，有的變成是組織的盤查，有的是產品的盤查，這個首先要有國際上的標準、有ISO的標準……"],["蘇委員清泉：我看現在也沒什麼標準，現在新加坡來跟我談的，它就自己訂一套標準，歐盟也有一套標準，我們臺灣是認誰的？是彭部長你自己認，還是怎樣？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，國際的標準比較有彈性，所以每一個國家內化成，譬如說產品碳足跡，我們還會用本國的係數去做調整，所以如果是自願性的產品碳足跡，我們會用這個方式來處理。另外，像歐盟CBAM要求產品要申報產品碳含量，歐盟就會訂規則。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個是CBAM在界定，這個就有點像Codex這個味道，是不是？"],["施次長文真：對。"],["彭部長啓明：不過委員，其實碳的問題有一個UNFCCC（聯合國氣候變遷綱要公約），它是整個核心，對於如何去訂碳定價，它是用一個大原則，讓每個區域、每個國家有它自己的細的子法。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二個問題就是，你說要補助各縣市，補助各縣市是用什麼標準？各縣市是要幹什麼事？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為過去大家對於碳費都有一個想像空間，會有個幾千億，的確有些縣市首長跟我說，因為它也是排碳大戶，要跟我要很多。但是我必須說，其實國際上對於這種減碳一定要真的去減碳，要有一個量出來，所以目前辦法還沒有訂。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為很多工廠都在高屏，公司設在臺北市，然後在臺北市繳稅，在高屏那邊卻是「放雞屎，無生雞卵」，所以現在地方政府都在哇哇叫，覺得臺北市政府收了那麼多的稅，250萬人口就可以收到二、三千億。所以如果以後要補助各縣市，你是用算人頭，還是算工廠，還是算污染的程度？這個都要講清楚，不然到時候會起爭執，所以這個部分部長要注意一下。"],["彭部長啓明：可以，現在才60億，我們幫產業、幫國家的忙可能都不夠，要努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！以後如果有600億的時候，大家就要打架了。","最後一個問題我要問你醫療的。你上次跟邱泰源有參加一個會，你說醫療部門占的排放比例差不多是0.9%，如果加上一些供應鏈、衛藥耗材等等，會達到4.4%。醫療院所有在做減碳，但像高雄大同醫院就說，再怎麼減碳也只能減到18%而已，這到底是怎麼一回事？因為我們醫療院所都是要低溫，像核磁共振等等，那些都是要18、19度的冷氣吹24小時、365天，這個要減碳也沒辦法減，我們的空調就占所有電費的5、60%。你跟我講的是，要讓空調什麼的耗電能夠減低，所以叫醫療院所安心的跟著彭部長走，不然就算你的。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：但醫療院所降不下來，要怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於醫療院所，我也特別針對這個問題去問有收碳稅的國家，他們醫療院所都沒有收，所以委員可以放心。但是未來會不會又馬上收？因為這個是救人的，所以我們不會主動來處理這一塊。目前我們幫醫療院所的是，如果是8,000瓩以上的公私立醫院，我們現在跟經濟部合組一個深度節能團隊，但這個要錢，我們現在正在找錢。其實總統有提醒我，要幫醫院去找預算出來，所以我們找了金管會做這個事情，未來一、兩個月應該就會公布一些方法出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你是找民間的資源來做一個團隊、來輔導所有大、中、小型醫院如何來減碳，你的意思是這樣嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這樣的話，我們要如何轉述給所有的醫療院所？就是要這樣說，叫大家稍安勿躁……"],["彭部長啓明：稍安勿躁，真的稍安勿躁。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二、環境部會做最好、妥適的安排，然後會幫我們組團隊來輔導，看看能不能再節能減碳、再減。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後一個問題，像醫療耗材、衛藥耗材所產生的碳，到底一個東西出來，譬如說一瓶點滴出來耗了多少碳，包括碳足跡等等，這個要界定清楚，不然我看你們都隨便說說，你說3噸就3噸，你說2噸就2噸，這樣是不量化的。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，有兩種，一個是自願性減碳，那個是大家自己去提碳足跡；我們這邊的碳費是比較嚴格的，一定要真的去盤查、認證碳費出來才可以，所以那個都有一定的標準。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這方面部長要用心啦！謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我在這邊作以下宣告：在王正旭委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心"},{"start":37.194,"end":65.127,"text":"本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望"},{"start":66.195,"end":82.803,"text":"那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然"},{"start":84.535,"end":110.833,"text":"檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在這個講到這個我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要一定要這個"},{"start":113.243,"end":123.278,"text":"抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300"},{"start":128.786,"end":128.806,"text":"邱鎮軍"},{"start":145.167,"end":173.249,"text":"委員剛才說的都是重點但是我也必須說台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家所以我們其實是慢了我們的確也會觀察說會不會不公平的現象例如說有些像越南因為印尼有越南東南亞有些國家其實我們台灣的碳費的量因為其實碳費如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低"},{"start":173.809,"end":201.041,"text":"那韓國的委員看到這5.7是對的但是韓國是進行這個總量管制的碳交易他的這個一噸的碳在這個市面上超過排蛋的話大概是18塊美金500多塊台幣的所以其實這個我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況那日本其實他也有東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢也差不多是500多塊台幣所以我們台灣的這個價錢是剛剛好那其實部長您講的這些我們都知道了但我要講的是我們台灣現在的這個"},{"start":203.322,"end":228.382,"text":"處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣呢你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%"},{"start":231.37,"end":251.511,"text":"對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者"},{"start":253.052,"end":277.944,"text":"當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將"},{"start":283.702,"end":302.559,"text":"那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額"},{"start":303.44,"end":303.46,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":333.281,"end":346.848,"text":"對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好"},{"start":347.108,"end":347.908,"text":"有些業者在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作"},{"start":374.62,"end":389.012,"text":"然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者"},{"start":399.921,"end":401.542,"text":"跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量"},{"start":423.632,"end":443.563,"text":"那當時他們這個做比技術標幹要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去"},{"start":444.623,"end":473.059,"text":"那剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用"},{"start":475.193,"end":500.843,"text":"臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?已經訂了是嗎?他們自己發電自己用的那個部分要用,要課但是公民生的就可以扣掉?就是所謂企業發電他的用的電乘以他的排碳係數那個就要繳碳費,企業自己要付那臺電勒?臺電大概是1000萬噸,他自發自用的自己產生的還有輸配電產生的大概1000萬噸那個要付"},{"start":503.004,"end":523.31,"text":"公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排"},{"start":527.671,"end":529.352,"text":"臺電有一些是可以有彈性的"},{"start":551.244,"end":551.545,"text":"謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:57:13 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10:06:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155408","gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時57分）主席好，我們一樣請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。首先要謝謝環境部和經濟部到最後有聽進各界的聲音，比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率，但是我覺得，開徵碳費還是對我們的產業造成了非常重大的變數，所以各國都非常小心。本席昨天仔細看了環境部提供的報告，目前全世界只有75個國家實施、制定碳定價的制度，整個比例只占全球24%，不到四分之一，其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家，大部分的國家都還在觀望。本席在想，會不會人家一講，我們就很努力地往前衝，結果衝到前面，一回頭，竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走。你懂我的意思嗎？部長。我只希望我們在做事情的時候一定要……","當然，減碳是必要的，但是我們也要顧及產業生存的基本權益，不要自己國家在搞。我們的目的是在減少碳排，不要搞成好像是在收碳費，不是為了錢，是為了減碳，這個最終目的請部長一定要抓緊，一定要站穩這個立基點，就是不要為了收費而收費啦，應該這樣講才對。","我看到韓國實質收費每公噸只有5.7元臺幣，但我國的一般費率高達300，優惠方案B也要100，當然，優惠方案A是50元，兩年調整一次，未來我看到的是上看上千元。重點是這些優惠條件，我們的業者到底有沒有辦法做到？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實委員剛剛說的都是重點，但是我也必須說，臺灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家，所以我們其實是慢了。我們的確也會觀察會不會有不公平的現象，例如說像越南等東南亞有些國家的狀況（印尼有了），臺灣碳定價的話，還要看化石燃料稅，其實我們臺灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來得低。韓國部分委員看到這個5.7是對的，但是韓國是進行總量管制的碳交易，它在市面上超過排碳的話，一噸的碳大概是18塊美金（五百多塊臺幣），所以其實我們都有衡量到各個國家的情況，日本東京證交所也有一個碳交易的價錢，也差不多是五百多塊臺幣，所以我們臺灣的這個價錢是剛剛好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道部長你講的，這些我們都知道，但我要講的是我們臺灣現在的處境比較尷尬，在很多國際的組織裡面我們都是被排除的，他們是享有零關稅的待遇，但是我們臺灣呢？你看，兩岸的……APEC今年對臺取消了146項產品的優惠關稅，對我們的產業來講其實壓力是非常大的；另外，三年的電費連漲42%，對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境；如果再加上開徵碳費，恐怕會成為壓垮我們基本傳統產業，如石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草。","我剛才也看到您的報告裡面有提到高碳洩漏的業者，當然我也收到陳情，希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費核配。本席認為，這些國內、國外因素都應該列入碳費制定的參考，我也看到環境部說，明年中應該也要比照歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的行業別，請問部長，你同不同意將高碳洩漏的行業別百分之百來納入研議呢？"],["彭部長啓明：請次長正式來回應。"],["施次長文真：委員好。我想我們在徵收的辦法裡面有提到，如果是高碳洩漏的產業，它的徵收排放量其實是可以打到兩折，那它的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額。我再跟委員報告，比如以歐盟來講，它的製造業是有免費配額，但是它的發電業是百分之百要到市場上去買排放量的。因為我們的制度是範疇一跟範疇二全部都要繳碳費，所以這樣換算下來，我們的排放量調整，讓它範疇一加範疇二的排放量可以打兩折，其實這個概念已經很接近歐盟給製造業的免費配額。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到歐盟他們有把這些都列入，還有日、韓對這些好像也都已經做了一個非常完整的規範，希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的標準，好不好？"],["施次長文真：是，有納入。"],["彭部長啓明：我也跟委員報告，其實歐盟或是日本、韓國的制度是走到總量管制的碳交易，這個對我們政府部門未來是比較好的一個作法，而不是像我們一個一個訂，對某一個產業這樣訂的話，其實這個標準是無法齊一的，所以其實我們未來真的也會走向總量管制的碳交易。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，有些業者其實在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作，投入大量經費推動自願減量的工作計畫，到後面減碳的成本越來越大，但現在基準年我們卻定在2018到2022年，我們現在是這樣訂，讓業者很難達到這個條件，造成不公平，因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的業者，我覺得政府應該要給他們多一點保護，因為他們先做了，他們是響應政府的政策才做了，這部分是不是能夠考量進去，當作是給他們一個獎勵，這樣可以嗎？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，在2005年之後，有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做自願減量，當時他們做比技術標竿要好的減量成效，我們有發給它一個類似減量憑證，其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許它使用，以某一個比例來抵它的徵收排放量，所以這是有納入……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！標準還沒出來嘛？"],["施次長文真：有，已經出來了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去。"],["施次長文真：有，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛有講到我們臺灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的目標，最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始？"],["彭部長啓明：最有效減量方法還是節能，節省各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善，那個是最大宗，所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛次長也提到，歐盟的電力供應者是要繳碳費的，我們臺灣是不用，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：要，大概是占1,000萬噸左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：台電要嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：台電要，1,000萬噸左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：台電也要繳，已經訂了是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：他們自己發電供自己用的那個部分要繳，但是1億噸的部分不用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是供民生的就可以扣掉？"],["彭部長啓明：就是所謂企業發電，它用的電乘以它的排碳係數，那個就要繳碳費，企業自己要付。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那台電呢？"],["彭部長啓明：台電大概是1,000萬噸，它自發自用的、自己產生的，還有輸配電產生的那個部分大概1,000萬噸，那個要付。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是供給民生的那個就可以不用？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上那個是它自己用的，那個其實占它所有的營收比例的……因為台電的減碳績效很好，我們有算過，它要繳的大概是5億左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們知道啦！其實電力供應在我們臺灣大概有24廠，在五百大碳排量中占了45%以上，這個比例是非常高的，為了要能夠有效的減碳，我覺得這部分應該也要好好的來斟酌一下，這樣對其他的業者才比較公平，當然，如果是涉及到民生的，我當然也贊成，因為它是配合政府一些政策，尤其是台電，它有一些是可以有彈性的，至於其他業者如果不是針對這個部分的話，我覺得我們必須要公平對待，這樣可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言。","接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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有請我們的彭部長彭部長委員早部長好 部長早 部長辛苦喔 但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來了那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025 真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟 這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一 確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問喔 那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢"},{"start":40.193,"end":65.913,"text":"現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢"},{"start":66.954,"end":82.666,"text":"部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題"},{"start":95.663,"end":101.391,"text":"那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應"},{"start":102.157,"end":127.741,"text":"第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情"},{"start":127.881,"end":155.852,"text":"那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上他沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們再去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在事深報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做"},{"start":157.52,"end":178.798,"text":"好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該要有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對"},{"start":180.279,"end":194.372,"text":"但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是"},{"start":197.455,"end":223.166,"text":"未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下它在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做"},{"start":224.806,"end":242.143,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣他大幅降低供屋他的排碳量也減少了三分之一所以他的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢"},{"start":242.883,"end":266.199,"text":"當然有些國家的核能它是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講還是希望說"},{"start":268.26,"end":286.454,"text":"我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題的"},{"start":287.034,"end":298.711,"text":"不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路"},{"start":299.332,"end":322.746,"text":"但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟部定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次"},{"start":328.19,"end":353.42,"text":"現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案A每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數"},{"start":354.921,"end":373.322,"text":"你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這個自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠"},{"start":375.965,"end":390.82,"text":"包委其實我們的上市櫃公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大"},{"start":392.742,"end":409.973,"text":"那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做"},{"start":410.563,"end":425.934,"text":"OK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會,可能會...對,那你們現在,但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?"},{"start":426.935,"end":447.056,"text":"對,A或B,但是你們現在是用計算是B嘛,但是移到我們偵測目標,我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準,對不對?那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦,當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理,但大部分可能是以B方案為主體,然後去計算這個溫管收入喔。"},{"start":447.717,"end":457.402,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案請問我們次長"},{"start":458.615,"end":470.319,"text":"委員好 因為A方案其實它是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準 行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的徵收對象來講 這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的大所以這樣子我們也才給他50塊的這個費率做優惠那其實就變成是要看每一個產業 因為這個有行業別 那裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業"},{"start":484.804,"end":495.952,"text":"所以可能要看每個徵收對象他自己去評估那我們也會協助如果他真的很有企圖心想要走方案A我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的"},{"start":500.675,"end":500.795,"text":"主席"},{"start":520.177,"end":543.087,"text":"COP28城市氣候峰會指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與：所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告"},{"start":544.075,"end":565.912,"text":"這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會啦齁但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費齁我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園啦齁隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見"},{"start":566.052,"end":590.237,"text":"我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途"},{"start":591.518,"end":602.815,"text":"但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是"},{"start":603.737,"end":623.76,"text":"你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資"},{"start":624.961,"end":644.868,"text":"甚至是投資國人健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個"},{"start":652.731,"end":675.092,"text":"他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":676.834,"end":677.434,"text":"廖偉翔委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:45:40 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09:57:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155406","gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時45分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好、部長早，部長辛苦了。但是說真的，我們國家的碳費終於出來了，從2023、2024到2025，真的也是很久。你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟CBAM定義有效的碳價形式之一，確定可以抵扣，但我這裡想要請問，折抵的成數到底是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：它的細節大概明年年中才會出來，其實必須說它是一個國家、一個國家會來談，我們臺灣並不是歐盟前十大進出口國，所以我們有跟它談到，就是委員這邊提到的，明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意，我們會派駐人專門來協商這個事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，因為如果沒有辦法提高成數，沒有達到百分之百的話，那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢？如果超過2.5萬噸排放的280家企業，面臨的問題，但低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟，那大概就只能向歐盟的CBAM買憑證，對不對？請問部長，現在歐盟CBAM是針對我們的產品課徵，那我國的碳費是針對企業組織課徵，所以未來在和歐盟制度的接軌上，會不會有什麼潛在問題？還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公布我國的碳費折抵成數之後，才有辦法因應？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，委員擔心的，例如中部很多的扣件，包含螺絲、螺帽等等，因為很多歐洲進口車都是用臺灣的，所以他們的確是我們要關切輔導的，這個部分因為他們的細節還沒有出來，我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商，早一點幫助臺灣的產業，所以我們絕對會跟經濟部共同合作做這個事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我就想請問，兩個的時程上，這樣子會不會導致這些企業面臨到許多轉型上的問題，以及時程上它沒辦法因應，或甚至到時候出來以後，到底要怎麼幫助他們出口到歐洲的時候還有競爭力？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個是2026才正式實施，現在都在試申報，2027才要繳錢，所以我們大概還有2年的因應時間，但是2年說真的也非常緊迫。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們會加緊地做。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，依照現在我們公告的碳費收費辦法第三條，也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二，超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費嘛！我覺得製程與設施提升改善，當然一方面需要企業自己的努力，另外一方面，政府應該有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型，對不對？但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分，我覺得這就對企業是非常地不公平，原因是我國的能源結構，我們的碳排係數過高，現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%，火力可能要有20%、30%，幾乎就是未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣，還排除核能這個選項，會導致所有企業，在未來我們能源政策不變的情況之下，它在範疇二的計算部分會越來越增加。基本上就會變成是企業該改的也改了，它自己該努力的也努力了，但是我們的能源政策不變，還是增加了它很多的成本和降低了它的競爭力。部長，你覺得這樣合理嗎？以及身為環境部，你覺得應該怎麼做？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個是，燃煤改燃氣，大幅降低空污，排碳量也減少了三分之一，所以它的排碳量，我們現在是0.495，預期大概到2030年，我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右，甚至要更低，那當然……"],["廖委員偉翔：跟其他有核能的國家比呢？"],["彭部長啓明：當然，有些國家的核能，它是有經過很穩定、穩健地溝通跟處理核廢料安全，都沒有問題才可以這樣做，我們也希望委員的想法如果是按照這個程序，當然這是一個清淨能源，我們也都尊重，但這其實還是需要大家的溝通和共識，因為核廢料還有安全性……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以基本上現在就是在這個部分還沒有共識、還是無解嘛！以現在的執政黨來講，你們還是希望說……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是環境部長，我還沒有接到任何指示說要做任何調整，但是如果從淨零的角度……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，這個部分我就是要提醒你，從淨零的角度，這的確是會有問題，對不對？就是比起其他有務實的核能配比的國家，我們這樣子走下去，未來也的確會有問題。"],["彭部長啓明：不見得是一個問題。這是一個選擇的問題，因為任何能源的推動都有它的困難點，例如說太陽能或是風力發電，每一個能源轉型都很困難，所以這就必須找到一條適合臺灣的路啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣還是沒有回答到問題。好，沒關係，我大概知道你的立場，你也不方便說太多。","接下來，請教依碳費收費辦法的第五條和第六條，我們的排放量調整係數何時會跟經濟部訂出來？也就是我們的高洩漏係數。"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在的排碳係數就是0.2，未來兩年會調整一次，現在第一期就是0.2。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我講的意思是，你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30日前提交自主減量計畫，通過環境部核定之後，再申請高碳洩漏風險事業，才能適用方案A的每噸50元，或是方案B的每噸100元嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：可是你們要求企業在6月30日以前提交自主減量計畫，會不會有點太強人所難？"],["彭部長啓明：是明年6月30日喔！"],["廖委員偉翔：當然是明年6月30日啊！但是你要想，他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做、細節是什麼，再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也需要審查時間，這樣子的時間會不會不夠？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們的上市（櫃）公司還有我們觀察這些企業的ESG報告，寫得都很詳細，而且都非常有雄心，所以我相信他們寫的都不是「漂綠」，都是真實在做，所以這個問題應該是不大。當然，有一些企業不是上市（櫃）公司，它可能沒有寫ESG報告，相對的壓力就會比較多，我們會給它特別的輔導。所以我們環境部有一個專線，如果企業有問題，我們手把手教，甚至我們現在都有辦巡迴說明會，在教怎麼寫這個東西，這部分我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK。另外，你們現在溫管基金的估算收入是60億嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：到後年可能會……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是你們的政策目標也是希望要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標，應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：A或B。"],["廖委員偉翔：對啦，是A或B，但你們現在計算是用B嘛！就政策目標而言，我們當然希望他們都可以達到適用A方案的標準，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得這個部分是比較奇怪的邏輯，當然，你用B方案來計算可能是覺得這樣比較合理，因為大部分可能是以B方案為主體，所以據此去計算溫管基金的收入。這個部分是否能說明一下要投入多少資源，可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案？"],["彭部長啓明：請我們次長來說明。"],["施次長文真：委員好，因為A方案其實是國際上最嚴格的減量標準，行業別其實要減到42%，所以對於很多徵收對象來講，用A方案真的挑戰非常、非常大，這樣我們也才給它50塊的費率做優惠。其實就變成是要看每一個產業，因為這個有行業別，裡面還有水泥業跟鋼鐵業，所以可能要由每個徵收對象自己去評估，我們也會協助，如果它真的很有企圖心，想要走方案A，我們會想辦法跟它一起去討論，但……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這是同樣的問題，就是我們到底有什麼具體的方案可以去指導民間企業轉型，因為現在我們在民間還是聽到非常多企業覺得很多東西好像不是很明確，比起歐盟的企業收到國家挹注的資金去幫助他們轉型，我們是遠遠不足的。這個部分我是希望部長你們要好好地帶回去，做好跨部會的整合。","接下來，COP 28城市氣候峰會也指出，國家的減碳目標要納入地方政府參與，所以也有學者或是地方政府說，政府的比例應該是希望比照空污基金的6比4。我想請教部長，碳費的支用辦法和獎補助地方政府的比例何時會公告？"],["彭部長啓明：我們溫管基金應該是明年會開會，但是我也跟委員報告，因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候，他們也跟我們說，這個碳費要他們交可以，但是不能隨便去蓋公園、隨便做一些基本上屬於地方建設的事情，他們是有一些要求的，所以基本上這個東西都還在溝通當中，我們一定會廣納大家的意見。"],["廖委員偉翔：我是覺得給地方當然也是合理的，但重點是比例，你要它去投資淨零轉型的部分，也要讓地方有這樣的經費去做，因為這是中央、地方要一起連心的。我在講的主要是比例的問題，當然，你們那些細節和辦法可以認真去思考，因為收取碳費納入溫管基金，畢竟就是希望做淨零轉型之用，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我想要講的事情就是，舉例好了，就直接用我們臺中來講，我們中火在全世界是排名前幾大的火力發電廠，空污排名也很前面，是第19名，但是你們現在收的這些碳費，尤其是台電，最後是轉嫁到終端消費者身上，可是在地方上受到環境的影響、碳排的影響都是地方政府喔！所以這個部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助，然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分做更多的投資，甚至是投資國人健康等等的？這都是一個用途。所以這個部分我是不是可以請部長從寬思考一下應該要給地方更多，尤其是這種碳排設施很嚴重的地方？"],["彭部長啓明：好。委員，中央、地方是一定要攜手合作的啦！其實我們也算了一下，剛剛說的15億是錯的，其實大概1億左右而已。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是這個新聞的確是這樣，而且我剛剛講到了，其實所有的碳費會透過發電轉嫁到用戶身上，對不對？可是只有一億多在地方，可能它本身那個電廠要付的碳排的部分，可是中間有很多它製造出來的電、製造出來的碳排都已經在終端了，而真正承受這個碳排污染的是在地方啊！你懂我的意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，這個我們會列入考慮。"],["廖委員偉翔：邏輯上我覺得應該是這樣子，所以這個部分是不是應該要為地方多多思考一下？謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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高鐵它的緊結制度的這些設置"},{"start":506.298,"end":517.131,"text":"臺鐵要多多學習要多多學習那最後一個我特別要請教一下極端氣候你們現在如何面對來那個杜董事長"},{"start":518.587,"end":546.361,"text":"極端氣候就像我們花蓮那邊花蓮那個地方欸動不動就山崩動不動就土磁流這個怎麼防止是針對極端氣候其實我們有做一個全面性的一個調查跟研究那包括邊坡包括這個溪流我們在這個我都知道啦你如何去防範啦這個我都知道所以有什麼新作法啦"},{"start":546.901,"end":570.651,"text":"對,所以針對這個極端氣候包括我們在我們軌道位置的這個範圍內我們要增設阻隔,或者是我們要改善這個橋樑,或者是我們要再加強我們的這個道景杜董事長,華仁的人德站阿,他已經重復再重復,你們改進又不改進一直沒有辦法"},{"start":572.031,"end":589.178,"text":"還有我們道安會我們林組委特別要去監督一下我相信你們有很多給他們建議如果真的他們都不改善你要跟吳政志講一下啊要大家去監督啊好不好好最後一個我們台鐵的漲價"},{"start":592.299,"end":610.073,"text":"其實沒有品質你漲一塊錢老百姓都不服氣所以我還要建議你們董事會要有公司經營之理念一定要有品質才有價錢所以你不要動不動啊就是說啊我虧損所以我要漲價"},{"start":612.074,"end":641.004,"text":"但是問題你沒有品質沒有安全你漲一塊錢我也不服氣啊不是嗎我坐你的車搞不好生命會不保欸所以這個杜董事長我希望你們好好的去討論一下齁最後我還在問一個問題我們新型的R20名的新車為什麼6月份剛交車10月份就出包來杜董"},{"start":642.383,"end":667.629,"text":"這一輛R206其實還沒有交他是在試車的這個情形之下他有一些故障那這個部分我們會責成我們的那個製造商好 針對這個問題因為時間的關係拜託你的那個說明疑問報告給我們交通委員會包括我在內好不好好 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一個概念上的比較你就會發現台鐵是比較貴還是比較便宜"},{"start":268.698,"end":288.96,"text":"那你要去說服人民說我要調漲票價的理由你就有個客觀的標準你就比較好參考所以這個是一個數目字我是覺得你們應該去了解一下那第二個就是說我今天在平快車或者是對號或者是"},{"start":290.103,"end":313.183,"text":"至強舉光有什麼差別那我今天如果要做更好的可能調更多我今天如果要做最便宜的你就不要給我怎麼調或是調少一點類似這樣子的概念是不是在你們調整票價的時候可以去做思考不要讓人民其實我們先重視那個就是最弱勢的那一底層吧"},{"start":313.885,"end":326.003,"text":"那就是弱勢的底層如果他對他影響很大他就比較會受不了嘛那你如果比較坦白講比如說是富豪之類的那個你給他調整他也沒什麼多大的感覺啦"},{"start":327.383,"end":352.468,"text":"所以我是覺得就是說這兩個概念讓市長尤其是董事長思考一下要怎麼樣去調漲在現實的狀況跟世界各國做比較我勉強可以接受我們台鐵的調漲但是我調漲的時候有思考到弱勢要怎麼樣讓他不會影響太大我想這兩個概念是不是請台鐵可以思考一下好那另外就是說"},{"start":355.137,"end":374.384,"text":"剛剛李昆澤立委提到的那個安全系統的問題事實上我們也一直在強調台鐵的安全那我在之前也聊過也跟質詢過就是我們的那個員工的福利啦那就是說你今天員工的福利跟安全這個部分你要怎麼樣去搭配"},{"start":375.856,"end":385.704,"text":"你又要馬而肥,又要馬而不吃草我知道那個東部,上一次我們有一次說招募七個人,結果只有一個人來報名,結果錄取0人照理講,在內公務機關,國營7月,大家是趨之若鶩,台鐵是找不到人當然有的人會比較高鐵幣,現在屬性高鐵比較賺錢"},{"start":402.036,"end":421.269,"text":"所以我們在轉型的過程當中怎麼樣去精準調整不要影響到太多的平民弱勢但是你可以在你的盈餘上或者是你其實多角化經營其實像有很多捷運在做那個商辦啊、都更啊當然不能像那個"},{"start":422.711,"end":442.356,"text":"客批那樣子都更啦那個392變840那個比較誇張但是你是合理的合理的都更其實這個都是好的所以我是覺得就是說臺鐵可以再做一下思考那對員工的福利可以調漲的我知道現在那個現場檢察員跟盜班導師盜班師傅他們都有那個甲級證照喔就一個月而已三萬塊你找得到嗎"},{"start":449.6,"end":457.297,"text":"這一定請不上人,因為你要求管,後禮拜他當然是,你譬如說比較特別的,你其實要去做"},{"start":458.55,"end":481.549,"text":"做那個比較精準的就是去看看他的工作量跟他的技術、證照跟他的薪水的搭配這個部分也應該去做一下思考所以這個部分請那個我們台鐵公司也另外再特別的要求一下那最後還有一樣就是鳳山車站的BOT現在那個董事長有預計了嗎?"},{"start":484.709,"end":498.416,"text":"我們還在努力中我們現在已經有開公告了依據11月底會結標我是建議董事長這件事希望你積極可以親自去"},{"start":499.797,"end":527.455,"text":"監督跟協助一下有有有因為其實當時的設計坦白講我們重視的是外部的改變那時候改變很漂亮我們也要求的很久啊終於有一個很大的改變所以蓋好之後坦白講我還覺得滿感謝台鐵也很用心啊也做這一部分也做得不錯啦但是我後來才知道內部的設計吼內部的設計真的還是不符一般的商場的使用"},{"start":528.55,"end":548.035,"text":"所以在內部的設計你們要做內部的怎麼樣的去改變或者是說讓人家覺得說一來會合啦雙門來撩錢沒人會來啦所以當然就是說我知道這個有時候我們在POT很辛苦在圖利跟合理的利潤跟撩錢"},{"start":550.585,"end":571.728,"text":"這個中間要拿捏到什麼程度你才能夠找到好的BOT廠商來這邊做經營我希望說董事長這邊是不是可以親自的去把它監督要求不要說第二次再留標就很難看了是是我會來努力所以董事長第二次有沒有信心可以招標出去"},{"start":572.048,"end":599.422,"text":"有,因為現在我們第一個齁我們這一次招標我們的招標的條件我們有做一些調整應該是吸引力會增加所以第二個我們也實際有去邀標啦訪商啦聽取他們的意見我想那個結果論啦齁那個第二次是11月底嘛對不對希望說董事長有信心能夠完成這件事這樣子沒問題吧"},{"start":602.389,"end":619.821,"text":"董事長沒問題齁是我們來努力好啦那個希望你盡量去努力啦也希望說這件事情能完成要不然會變成我們一個風山的遺憾希望這部分董事長可以加緊腳步按監督要求好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:33:37 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09:44:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155404","gazette":{"lineno":144,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（9時33分）主席，大家好。請次長還有臺鐵董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長還有杜微董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：次長好。10月16日電價調漲新制，聽說漲價的原則跟狀況其實民眾還是有意見，我想請教一下漲價要怎麼漲，有沒有分比較平民化的跟比較弱勢的要怎麼樣去處理？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，票價調漲，我想我們必須考慮到整個運輸界的整合、競合；第二個要考慮到社會的經濟狀況，還有對民眾影響的程度，由以上這幾個因素來進行考量，當然我們不希望因為這樣的漲價帶頭對物價有所影響，以我所知道，目前臺鐵正在謹慎地做評估，它評估完之後，會經過它的董事會，然後再報到部裡面來，比較細節的部分，我是不是請董事長做一個簡單的回應？"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，關於票價的合理化，其實我們上一次已經有送過一次董事會，但是董事會退給了經理單位，因為裡面的資料還不夠齊備，包括一些估算。另外還有委員剛剛提到的，對於社會以及弱勢的影響，因為臺鐵的輸運是短、中、長都有，上一次董事會退回來，有一部分原因也是覺得規劃沒有全面性，所以我們現在還在努力調整。"],["許委員智傑：針對臺鐵的電價跟全世界各國比較的狀況，董事長有沒有概念？"],["伍次長勝園：電價的部分我這樣講，其實大家可能都一直認為臺鐵真的算是用電大戶，因為車子開了全部都要電力，我知道他們做了很多節能的工作，包括新車、新效能的引進，以及要求司機員在開車的時候不要急駛急停等類似情況。以112年4月到今年3月這個期間來跟今年4月到9月來比，大概節省了9.1%，我想他們有很大的成效，當然這中間也包括跟台電節電小組請教應該怎麼節電，我想臺鐵會更深入針對節電的部分來做……"],["許委員智傑：OK，次長跟董事長，我要提一個建議，你們可以參考。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["許委員智傑：第一個，比如說全世界的票價，一樣是20公里，那你們可以去做一個比較，看臺鐵是不是有比日本、韓國還貴？還是比較便宜？這就是一個客觀的參考嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["許委員智傑：第二個就是，像台電前一陣子調整電價時，它叫做精準調漲，我覺得那個概念還不錯，就是針對比較平民化、用電比較少的幾乎不調，或是調得很小，用電大戶，或者真的是賺錢的，比如說企業還有中小企業跟大企業相比，中小企業就調比較少，大企業調比較多；當然，對於用電戶有太多不同的方向。","比如說臺鐵調漲，你們第一個要比較全世界各國一樣的公里數，做概念上的比較，就可以發現臺鐵是比較貴還是比較便宜。你們要說服人民調漲票價的理由就有一個客觀的標準，這樣比較好參考。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以這是一個數目字，我覺得你們應該去瞭解一下。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["許委員智傑：第二個，在平快車、對號，或者是自強、莒光有什麼差別，今天如果要坐更好的可能調更多，如果要坐最便宜的就不怎麼調，或是調少一點，類似這樣的概念是不是在你們調整票價時可以去做思考？不要讓人民……其實我們先重視最弱勢的底層，如果對他們影響很大，他們比較會受不了；坦白講比如說是富豪之類的，你們調整了，他們也沒多大的感覺。所以我覺得這兩個概念讓次長，尤其是董事長思考一下，看要怎麼樣調漲，在現實的狀況跟世界各國做比較，我勉強可以接受臺鐵的調漲，調漲的時候有思考到弱勢，要怎麼樣讓他們不會影響太大，這兩個概念是不是可以請臺鐵可以思考一下？","另外，剛剛李昆澤立委提到安全系統的問題，事實上我們也一直在強調臺鐵的安全，我之前也質詢過員工的福利，就是員工福利跟安全要怎麼樣搭配，你們又要馬兒肥又要馬兒不吃草。我知道上一次東部有招募7個人，只有1個人來報名，結果錄取0人；照理講，在類公務機關、國營企業，每個人是趨之若鶩，結果臺鐵卻找不到人，當然有的人會跟高鐵比，事實上現在高鐵比較賺錢。","在轉型的過程當中，怎麼樣去精準調漲，不要影響太多的平民、弱勢，但你們可以在盈餘上，或者是你們多角化經營。其實像很多捷運在做商辦、都更，當然不能像柯P那樣子都更，392變840就比較誇張，但你們是合理的都更，其實這都是好的，所以我覺得臺鐵可以再思考，對員工的福利可以調漲。我知道現在現場檢查員、師傅都有甲級證照，1個月領三萬多，你們怎麼找得到人？這一定找不到人的，因為你們要求高、福利差，當然就會如此。對於比較特別的工作，你們其實要做比較精準的分析，看看他們的工作量跟技術證照及薪水的搭配，這部分也應該去思考，請臺鐵公司再特別要求一下。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["許委員智傑：最後還有一樣就是鳳山車站的BOT，現在董事長有預計了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：我們還在努力中，現在已經有開公告了。"],["許委員智傑：公告？"],["杜董事長微：預計11月底會結標。"],["許委員智傑：我是建議董事長，這件事希望你可以親自積極地去監督跟協助一下。"],["杜董事長微：有、有、有。"],["許委員智傑：因為其實坦白講，當時設計重視的是外部改變，那時候改變得很漂亮，我們也要求了很久，終於有了很大的改變，所以蓋好之後我還滿感謝臺鐵很用心，這部分也做得不錯，但我後來才知道內部設計真的還是不符一般商場使用，所以你們在內部設計要做怎麼樣的改變，或者是讓人家覺得來會划算，對於商人，賠錢沒有人會來啦，所以當然這個就是說……我知道有時候BOT很辛苦，在圖利跟合理利潤及賠錢的中間要拿捏到什麼程度才能夠找到好的BOT廠商來這邊經營，我希望董事長是不是可以親自去監督、要求，第二次不要再流標，這樣會很難看喔！"],["杜董事長微：是，我會努力。"],["許委員智傑：所以董事長第二次有沒有信心可以招標出去？"],["杜董事長微：有，第一個，因為我們這次招標的條件有做一些調整，吸引力應該會增加。"],["許委員智傑：所以……"],["杜董事長微：第二個，我們也實際有去邀標、訪商，聽取他們的意見。"],["許委員智傑：我想這是結果論啦，第二次是11月底，對不對？希望董事長有信心能夠完成這件事，這樣子沒問題吧？董事長，沒問題喔？"],["杜董事長微：是，我們來努力。"],["許委員智傑：好啦，希望你們儘量努力，也希望這件事情能完成，要不然會變成我們鳳山的一個遺憾，希望董事長可以加緊腳步、監督要求，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。","接下來邀請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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董事長是 各位委員報告這一個剛剛講到從風險來開始其實分析每一個風險後面到最終的步驟就是怎麼樣去預防改善"},{"start":460.02,"end":475.371,"text":"這個我們現在SMS的階段都已經把它建立起來那的確這個裡面會有一些文書的工作那我們的做法是把以往我們這些比較浮於形式的文書工作我們把它裁剪掉"},{"start":476.854,"end":498.324,"text":"這個必須要去審視內部的考評集合以及行政的管理系統我們要精簡過時還有無效的程序的另外納入員工參與安全決策的這個設計跟討論這個非常重要要建立平等的會議以及協商的機制要重視基層員工的這個意見"},{"start":499.565,"end":520.984,"text":"另外五年安全的提升計畫具體的時程表我們看到行車六年安全改善計畫我也都參與在其中整個預算還有整個政策的執行我們就看到這個多方的原因六年行車安全改善計畫就有兩度的展延"},{"start":522.349,"end":528.926,"text":"6年變成10年了真的要在交通委員會待的夠久才能看到你們這個實施的狀況"},{"start":530.526,"end":551.731,"text":"我看到我們兩度展演當然是有很多像環境的變遷或者是需求的變動甚至是政策的名義或者是招標困難當然我們也碰到零軌工程的這種施工造成延誤或者是疫情的衝擊等等但這個都不應該是成為理由"},{"start":554.05,"end":571.598,"text":"這個來杜董事長簡單說明一下各位委員報告這個行政安全改善六年計畫我們預計就是今年我們會達成那所以接續這個計畫下去就我剛剛有提及的五年安全提升計畫是接續然後它是站在風險管控的角度來繼續來實施"},{"start":573.559,"end":575.02,"text":"杜董事長也因為時間的關係我最後啊"},{"start":598.279,"end":626.256,"text":"針對五年安全的這個提升計畫我們應該要針對完善的安全體系也必須調整教育的訓練發展智慧鐵道、更新設施設備等事道方面來全面推動相關的台鐵的交通安全的改善那五年安全提升計畫應該制定更具體的執行的時程這個次長我們針對月度或是季度要必須要來檢視"},{"start":627.717,"end":656.132,"text":"每項任務都必須要進展如期是 這個委員指正的事我想後面剛剛提到的不管是每一頁或是每一季我想我們這個部分我們會來進行這個瞭解管控杜董事長我最後你也是一個老台鐵也長久為台鐵的發展跟這個永續的經營都一直在努力不過這幾年我一直覺得我們一直支持你買新車"},{"start":657.705,"end":658.365,"text":"臺鐵的安全"},{"start":676.175,"end":692.237,"text":"民眾還是有疑慮對於台鐵的效率民眾還是不滿意對於相關安全系統的建立目前也是在於形勢對於真正能夠建立安全的機制還有一大段路要走"},{"start":693.358,"end":714.354,"text":"杜董事長最後讓你說明一下是 各位委員報告我們這個落差我們會很具體的我們落實的來執行那剛剛有講到五年安全提升計畫他會有這個很詳細的考核或跟被接受考核的這個在計畫裡面我們都有相列好 最後請次長再簡單補充說明一下"},{"start":716.215,"end":739.418,"text":"好 我想剛提到的我對這個臺鐵目前當然它有很多事情要做包括它的硬體上建設的一個韌性的一個加強那還有一個剛那個委員所提到非常重要我個人認為很重要就是企業的安全文化這個形塑啊對臺鐵是真的非常重要這個我一直在跟這個董事長還有他們管理階層一直在談"},{"start":741.144,"end":757.227,"text":"我們應該要有社會責任去把提供一個安全、優質的服務給民眾來使用這部分我想我們會持續再來跟這個台鐵共同來努力自然要全力的督促是好 謝謝李昆澤委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:20:19 - 09:32:57","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、交通部鐵道局、交通部運輸研究所、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司及國家運輸安全調查委員會就「臺灣鐵道安全提升計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155403","gazette":{"lineno":112,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時20分）謝謝陳素月召委，請伍勝園次長、杜微董事長、鐵道局楊正君局長。"],["主席：伍次長，還有杜微董事長、楊正君局長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：次長好。因為極端氣候的肆虐，臺灣也剛好是在地震帶上，也是颱風路徑常常經過的國家，所以對於交通系統的韌性，尤其是鐵道系統，如何提升其強韌的韌性來確保人民的出行安全及交通系統的穩定性，這是交通部重要的工作及責任。對於強化交通系統的韌性，次長，簡單說明一下目前的作法。"],["伍次長勝園：我先簡單報告一下，針對目前臺灣受到極端氣候影響比較大，大概就是在花蓮北迴段的部分，從上次地震以後，地質非常脆弱，下大雨容易引發土石流。針對這部分，我們除了會進行流域的聯防機制，跟上游的林業署、農村水保署，還有公路局進行區域聯防，它所得到的訊息能夠提供給我們知道，這是立即的。第二個，我們底下工程的部分做一些清淤，還有做排沙箱涵加大，如果有土石流過來以後可以去做，這是長期，我們會做一些明隧道阻隔的方案。"],["李委員昆澤：次長，從兩個方面來簡單地詢問，第一個，我們必須針對交通系統全面韌性的加強來確保交通運輸的安全，這是全面性的，也不是只有東部這一段。那東部這一段主要它是在和仁跟崇德，也就是台9線164.4K這個部分，其實就是經常的土石流、泥流傾瀉而下，造成公路系統及鐵道系統安全的危害。我們看到7月25號的凱米颱風、9月8號的土石流，以及10月3號的山陀兒颱風，其實都造成這些鐵道系統安全的衝擊，這個部分是我們必須要去進行強化的部分。臺鐵這一次有實施預警性的封閉，這是一個很重要的安全提升的方面，但是更重要的還是要強化相關軌道安全來做工程改善跟提升，以降低大自然災害對交通系統的這種衝擊。來，杜董事長簡單說明一下預警系統這一次實施的狀況。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們這一次所謂預警性的停駛，其實跟剛剛提到的，我們的告警還有監視都有關係，剛剛次長有提到聯防機制，在上端、上邊坡公路系統有發現異狀的時候，下面鐵路系統就有在做準備了。另外，剛剛委員有提到很重要的就是這邊寫的四點，有關於安全提升的各個項目，臺鐵公司已經都把它納到我們現在的五年精進安全提升計畫裡面。"],["李委員昆澤：杜董事長，對於彎道改善及道岔、鋼軌更新，這是一個很重要的基礎，因為我們要減少軌道結構的老化來提升這種基礎設施的安全性；入侵阻隔設施及告警系統的建置，尤其是在高風險的路段，必須要強化這些基本設施；邊坡巡檢系統的精進，必須要提升它的科技巡檢能力。花蓮地震災後的復原重建是很重要的，要提高它的防災能力，面對自然災害，我們必須要做到快速的預警還有即時的反應，來降低這種大自然災害對交通系統安全以及相關運輸安全的衝擊。","我們現在提到，我們在過去有很多安全相關的計畫，杜董事長，交通委員會過去，我二十多年來對於臺鐵的安全提升支持，這是大家都看得到的，我們有買很多新車，不管是城際列車、區間列車或是支線車、或是機車，這些就花了將近一千億。然後我們也支持臺鐵相關的安全提升計畫，包括六年安全的提升計畫，或是小半徑彎曲的改善計畫，電務智慧化的提升計畫，以及軌道結構安全的提升計畫，現在又有一個五年安全的提升計畫，這個部分其實我們有兩個問題，第一個就是，五年安全的提升計畫就關係到SMS，它的系統建立只是增加文書工作，沒有辦法去落實問題的意識還有安全文化的建立，這個等一下我們再來一一說明，還有會不會再延誤？因為六年安全提升計畫就延誤了好久，相關的問題有沒有解決？有關SMS，我們先來講第一個安全管理系統效果的評估，基層都在反映，以及依我們的觀察，認為SMS安全系統是一個重要的系統，但是目前都是流於形式，它只是增加基層員工的文書作業、工作歸檔，然後再加上行政程序繁瑣的確認機制，變成只是一種形式，沒有辦法去針對問題，因為員工也沒有參與，都在做文書作業，沒有辦法建立這種問題的意識跟安全文化。杜董事長，簡單說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：我跟委員報告，其實我們SMS不同於以往，我們現在是站在風險管控的角度來做，所以當然這個裡面會有……"],["李委員昆澤：風險管控當然是很重要啊，現在我講的就是它流於形式，只是增加文書作業、只是將工作歸檔，然後增加再一次確認機制的繁瑣程序而已，你沒有辦法去建立這種對於問題的解決還有安全文化的建立，問題在這邊啦，董事長。"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，剛剛講到從風險的角度開始，其實分析每一個風險，到最終的步驟，就是怎麼樣去預防改善，這個部分現在SMS的階段都已經把它建立起來，的確這裡面會有一些文書的工作，我們的作法是把以往這些比較浮於形式的文書工作把它裁減掉。"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要去審視……"],["杜董事長微：這個我們會來研究。"],["李委員昆澤：內部的考評、稽核及行政的管理系統，要去精簡過時還有無效的程序啦！"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，納入員工參與安全決策的設計跟討論，這個非常重要……"],["杜董事長微：這個我們會來做。"],["李委員昆澤：要建立平等的會議以及協商的機制，要重視基層員工的意見。","另外，五年安全的提升計畫具體的時程表呢？六年行車安全改善計畫我也都參與在其中，包含整個預算還有整個政策執行，我們看到因為多方的原因，六年行車安全改善計畫就有兩度展延，六年變成十年，真的要在交通委員會待得夠久才能看到你們實施的狀況，兩度展延當然是有很多像是環境的變遷或是需求的變動，甚至是政策的民意，或者是招標困難，當然我們也碰到臨軌工程的施工造成延誤，或者是疫情的衝擊等等，但這都不應該成為理由啊。請杜董事長簡單說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，有關行車安全改善六年計畫，我們預計今年會達成，所以接續這個計畫下去，就是我剛剛有提及的五年安全提升計畫是接續，然後它是站在風險管控的角度繼續來實施。剛剛委員提到一個重點，就是五年安全提升計畫，我們預期第一個五年計畫會在117年達成，但是後面還會陸續有第二個、第三個五年的計畫，這是我們公司目前提升安全的構想。"],["李委員昆澤：好，杜董事長，也因為時間的關係，我最後針對五年安全的提升計畫，應該要針對完善的安全體系，必須調整教育的訓練，發展智慧鐵道，更新設施設備等四大方面來全面推動相關的臺鐵交通安全改善，五年安全提升計畫應該制定更具體的執行時程，次長，針對月度或是季度必須要來檢視，每項任務都必須要如期進展。"],["伍次長勝園：是，委員指正的是，有關剛剛提到的，不管是每月或是每季，我想這個部分我們會來進行了解、管控。"],["李委員昆澤：好。杜董事長，你也是一個老臺鐵，長久也為了臺鐵的發展跟永續的經營一直在努力，不過這幾年我覺得我們一直支持你買新車，車也都換得差不多了，另外相關的安全提升計畫我們一樣、一樣、一樣都給予支持，買車花了千億，安全計畫也花了千億了，但是對於臺鐵的安全，民眾還是有疑慮，對於臺鐵的效率，民眾還是不滿意，對於相關安全系統的建立，目前也是在於形式，對於真正能夠建立安全的機制還有一大段路要走。杜董事長，最後讓你說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，對於這樣的落差，我們會很具體地落實來執行，剛剛有講到五年安全提升計畫，它會有很詳細的考核跟被接受考核的，這個在計畫裡面我們都有詳列。"],["李委員昆澤：好。最後請次長再簡單補充說明一下。"],["伍次長勝園：我想剛剛提到的，臺鐵目前當然有很多事情要做，包括它在硬體上建設的韌性的加強，還有一個是剛剛委員所提到的，非常重要，我個人認為很重要，就是企業安全文化的形塑對臺鐵是真的非常重要，這個我一直在跟董事長還有他們的管理階層一直在談，我們應該要有社會責任，去提供一個安全、優質的服務給民眾來使用，這部分我們會持續再跟臺鐵共同來努力。"],["李委員昆澤：次長要全力督促。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","我們現在先來確定議事錄，就是上次會議的議事錄，請問各位委員，對於議事錄有沒有意見？（沒有）好，沒有意見，議事錄確定。謝謝。","接下來請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-5","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖偉翔","徐富癸","何欣純","蔡其昌","廖先翔","黃建賓","鄭天財Sra 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我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代"},{"start":32.621,"end":33.662,"text":"其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間"},{"start":49.808,"end":71.883,"text":"而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳"},{"start":78.667,"end":93.773,"text":"而且也要保有我們台灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道"},{"start":94.833,"end":94.893,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":115.179,"end":115.279,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":140.189,"end":157.998,"text":"經濟部跟委員做一個說明,我們在疫後條例的預算有框了大概100多億,然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤查,然後從老闆、CEO班一直到員工。你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年?三年。"},{"start":161.34,"end":171.047,"text":"所以一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?是的,然後跟委員報告那這樣真的不夠啊,剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了"},{"start":173.083,"end":173.223,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":203.423,"end":228.264,"text":"那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊"},{"start":230.066,"end":251.505,"text":"那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型"},{"start":252.404,"end":259.555,"text":"報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少"},{"start":262.679,"end":284.427,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的"},{"start":287.168,"end":304.826,"text":"像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本是發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場"},{"start":307.228,"end":334.642,"text":"所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難"},{"start":335.743,"end":360.331,"text":"因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題"},{"start":361.431,"end":378.735,"text":"報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債"},{"start":382.076,"end":410.534,"text":"氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度"},{"start":411.154,"end":426.239,"text":"以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到"},{"start":427.859,"end":448.2,"text":"沒有辦法做這樣的力道是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來"},{"start":449.421,"end":473.131,"text":"最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭"},{"start":474.071,"end":497.379,"text":"就代表說他這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實他周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到"},{"start":497.819,"end":508.606,"text":"要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在"},{"start":526.916,"end":553.822,"text":"這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的"},{"start":554.862,"end":554.883,"text":"實質檢探"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:36:12 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09:45:35","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155401","gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時36分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員早。"],["王委員育敏：部長早。我想碳費的徵收，這件事情的確非常不容易，基本上我還是要肯定，至少我們踏出了這一步。相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡，我們臺灣啟動碳定價的時代其實是太晚了，我們到114年才正式啟動，但是看看鄰近的國家，日本從2008年就開始，韓國2015年就在做，新加坡2019年也開始，我們晚了人家很多時間。而晚了其他國家很多時間，就造成我們能夠準備跟因應的時間被壓縮得很短，像歐盟，它在2026年就啟動了它的CBAM，在這樣的情況下，我們臺灣準備的時間這麼短，怎麼樣落實讓我們啟動的碳定價時達到雙贏的目標？所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳，而且也要保有我們臺灣企業的競爭力，這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單，而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素，就是我們可以去加大政府的輔導力道跟措施，但是在這個部分，目前我看到的，坦白講還是相對薄弱。","今天經濟部也有代表列席，經濟部產發署楊署長是不是也一起上臺。在你們的報告裡面一直提到，要提高企業保有競爭力，但是我看你們的報告，也沒有太多實質輔導企業的措施，包括我們現在總共要投入多少的經費預算，這個部分其實都沒有看到。我可以問兩位嗎？環境部跟經濟部加起來，我們現在要輔導企業來做有效減碳的整體經費，請問加起來有多少錢？"],["楊署長志清：經濟部跟委員做一個說明，我們在疫後條例的部分，有匡列大概100多億的預算是針對我們的製造業，從說明會開始，讓他知道什麼是碳盤查，然後從老闆（CEO）班一直到員工、到總……"],["王委員育敏：這100億是一年的經費，還是幾年的經費？"],["楊署長志清：三年。"],["王委員育敏：對啊，所以平均下來一年大概只有30億嘛。"],["楊署長志清：是的。然後跟委員報告，還有一些工作……"],["王委員育敏：那這樣真的不夠啊！剛剛部長自己說，各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1,000億了，那你們的力道真的是非常的不足喔！另外一個，我要讓部長看看你們自己編的預算，我們說減碳這麼的重要，但是你們在今年所送出來的預算當中，包括氣候變遷署的年度預算、淨零路徑減量效益整合評估還有氣候變遷調適行動推動與策略研析，你所有的預算都是減列的。氣候變遷署整體減列的預算高達5,000萬；淨零路徑減量效益評估部分，你的預算也減列了一千多萬，如此我們怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢？為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們環境部的氣候署是做整個政策的規劃，很多的執行包含要跟經濟部還有各個部會合作，是大家一起來推動的，所以不是說我們這邊少編就……"],["王委員育敏：但是減列也不合理，照道理來講，這個要上路你要做的事情很多，基本上你的公務預算不應該還減列啊！另外，要額外增加其他的預算才對。所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億。部長，我請問你，環境部額外的，針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡？你如果公務預算都是減列的，那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府、這些企業做有效的轉型？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們的基金有增加，第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金，這個費用有顯著增加，所以我們……"],["王委員育敏：增加了多少？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，我們現在溫管基金113年的編列是五億多，明年的話有稍微增加到六億多。"],["王委員育敏：還增加了1億啊！所以我要講的是，我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚，一個是準備的配套不足；第三個，我們看到的是，我們真的可以提列出來的這些錢，其實相較於各國都是少的。像歐盟2023年是超過百億歐元這樣的資金；美國是240億美元用於低碳轉型和賦稅抵免；日本是發行了20兆日圓的綠色債券；韓國是擴大企業投資補貼，活絡碳權市場。相較底下我覺得現在經濟部跟環境部，我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足。所以這個也會造成，剛剛部長，我有聽到您在回答，您講到這件事情很困難，的確很困難，但是如果我們政府、如果行政院沒有這樣的意識，我們整體投入的資金不足，我覺得真正落實還會更加困難。就是你畫了一個很好的圖，但是實質上企業遇到很多困難，根本落實不了，然後政府又沒有資金去補助和輔導，所以最後減碳就會一事無成。我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度，但實質達到的效果、成效恐怕會大打折扣，這是一個最大的問題。部長，你有沒有跟行政院卓院長反映這樣的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我上個禮拜在日本就是去關注委員所關注的事情，日本結合了環境省、經產省還有財政廳，3個部會一起合作成立一個綠色成長基金，未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債，就是氣候債券，也帶動民間投資，總共是150兆。這件事情我也跟卓院長報告，所以他要我不斷地研析，因為這個東西也需要大院的同意支持，我們才可能轉型得過來。的確從我上任後，我就跟院長報告這件事情，院長也非常支持，但是裡面有很多細節，包含預算還有效率、怎麼去進行，我們都一直在觀察成功國家所有的新制度。以我們現在政府的預算編列來做淨零，我必須說，全世界所有國家照正常的預算都很難做得到，都是新的方法……"],["王委員育敏：沒錯。"],["彭部長啓明：碳定價完了之後才有辦法做這個……"],["王委員育敏：這個也是我看到的問題，以我們現在的力道，我可以在這邊講，就是沒有辦法做到。沒有辦法做到，這樣的力道是非常不足的，所以這個部分，我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會，這個應該你們是要三位一體的。在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度、很強的，我們來輔助這些，特別是臺灣的中小企業又很多，你應該就這部分要好好去研擬一套計畫出來。","最後我要問你，在碳費部分，你們的估算，你說縣市政府需要1,000億，而你現在其實只有60億，這60億就顯得很可貴了，就是你這60億要怎麼優先運用。我這邊建議幾個重點，第一個，我們的碳費應該要考量徵收來源的比例，特別是排碳大戶周遭，代表它這邊需要更多的減碳設施和設備，所以你在分配資源的時候，應該要優先從這些區域開始落實，它周邊相關的減碳設施應該要好好地強化。","第二個，就地方政府，你應該要有一套機制，讓他們來申請，你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到，要中央跟地方一起做，所以要開放給地方政府，有一個計畫，你有一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請。透過這個計畫申請，有效地在地方回過頭去輔導各地的經發局，在地的產業，他們透過這個計畫，有效地輔導企業，落實相關的減碳，這樣子才能達到雙贏。這樣的一個標準，是不是部長可以承諾，未來納入這個……將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用，應該要有一個標準來落實和實施。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，委員，我們會照這樣的政策來做，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，我想要落實這件事情真的很困難，所以我們希望環境部和經濟部就是加把勁，行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀，要給這兩個部會更多資源，才有可能讓這件事情達到我們想要達到真正實質減碳的目標，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩部長請彭部長林委員早部長早我們今天要討論的我想也是全國關注的"},{"start":19.178,"end":41.353,"text":"那這個議題在你上任我就有質詢那當時我很在意三件事也是今天要質詢追問的就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢上週已經10月7號已經出來了那可是這每公噸300元雖然剛剛你報告講說好像事實上是比其他國家事實上還算"},{"start":42.421,"end":44.582,"text":"第3個,碳費收到之後,到底作為什麼樣的用途?"},{"start":58.683,"end":86.334,"text":"那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500那可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高"},{"start":87.236,"end":87.737,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":96.187,"end":122.952,"text":"所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳定價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看"},{"start":124.372,"end":152.123,"text":"那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅也太低了所以他們也會拉起來"},{"start":152.583,"end":179.249,"text":"所以我們這個是他們去年的價格啦那韓國呢減碳成效是不好的啦所以基本上越低的成效當然是不好的對部長所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年慶我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買"},{"start":181.67,"end":197.975,"text":"高昂的商品有打折,而且打到骨折,我們碳費效法這樣的精神,所以定價300塊,可是針對某些特定高排碳的那個產業提供優惠方案A,那一公噸只要50元,那其他產業如果透過一些先進的技術的話"},{"start":201.806,"end":225.593,"text":"每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜"},{"start":226.297,"end":248.246,"text":"所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果"},{"start":249.046,"end":277.412,"text":"其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習所以這個其實是一個"},{"start":278.692,"end":303.906,"text":"可是真的是這樣嗎?我剛剛講是外部成本會造成我們外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶,像台塑石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你這邊表單裡邊,剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的"},{"start":304.646,"end":326.2,"text":"因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交1億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到1億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠"},{"start":327.12,"end":347.03,"text":"報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行"},{"start":347.97,"end":350.411,"text":"市長,我還是說一聲辛苦了,因為碳費制定當然很不容易,可是也必須要深刻檢討了,因為我從質詢一開始到現在,就質疑"},{"start":370.737,"end":377.501,"text":"10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法"},{"start":394.147,"end":421.406,"text":"所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕千萬不能"},{"start":421.866,"end":422.326,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":438.877,"end":453.861,"text":"未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大"},{"start":457.947,"end":483.476,"text":"目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好 第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸"},{"start":489.879,"end":494.823,"text":"環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數,所以23期大概何時會去啟動?"},{"start":497.286,"end":519.407,"text":"這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系"},{"start":520.677,"end":547.43,"text":"好 第三就是 雖然剛剛你有講說 我們的 像你在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成"},{"start":548.41,"end":576.631,"text":"有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情"},{"start":577.15,"end":579.491,"text":"最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼"},{"start":595.68,"end":621.162,"text":"因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊工作環境跟他的健康事實上很大的關係那有很多行業事實上是會受到影響像高溫紫外線的輻射、極端氣候的還有做場所的空氣汙染這些都會造成一些勞工的健康問題所以想問一下未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼"},{"start":622.413,"end":624.974,"text":"不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康"},{"start":648.55,"end":648.81,"text":"林月琴委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:25:02 - 09:36:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155399","gazette":{"lineno":260,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時25分）主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。我們今天要討論的議題我想也是全國關注的，這個議題在你上任時我就有質詢，當時我很在意三件事，也是今天要質詢追問的，就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢，上週10月7號已經出來了，每公噸是300元，雖然剛剛你報告時提到，好像對比其他國家來說，對工商團體還算OK，可是看起來社會各界對這個價格都是不滿意的。第二個，碳費未來是不是能夠實質達到我們所講的排碳效果還是虛應了事，不知道！第三個，碳費收到之後，到底作為什麼樣的用途？確實，我們看到剛剛環境部的簡報，我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說，我們覺得這個定價雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差，公民團體是期待到500嘛，可是我覺得勉強接受，因為你剛剛說這300塊的確很前瞻、很大膽，相對於日本跟韓國、新加坡，的確，事實上我們的定價不是太高，但也還是比一些其他國家高，而且高出不少。所以我想問一下，雖然這是開會的結果，所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊，訂出來的又比其他國家高，這是什麼原因？是不是請部長解釋一下？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說，其實碳定價還包含了化石燃料稅等等，日本跟韓國的化石燃料稅大概是我們的將近2.5倍到3倍左右，所以其實那個要統一來看，我們碳費的價格是考量到企業的競爭力，所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看，我們300塊的定義呢，當時委員在上一次（第五次）是300到500，他們後來有討論到是不是直接就訂定一個價格出來，後來他們定為300。當然我知道環團很不滿意，我也很清楚，但是我們其實也考量到未來在國際競爭上如果不往上走的話，其實那個錢都要繳到國外去，所以我們還是折衷有一個費率。","在這邊也跟委員報告，我上禮拜在日本，日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅太低了，所以他們也會拉起來，螢幕上這個是他們去年的價格啦。至於韓國的減碳成效是不好的，基本上那種越低的減碳成效當然是比較不好。"],["林委員月琴：對，部長，所以我這邊寫的是，我們的定價很國際，可是優惠很臺灣，為什麼我會講很有臺灣味，因為臺灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會，就像最近百貨公司週年慶，我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上，很多我們的買眾會去買，為什麼？因為定價高昂的商品有打折，而且打到骨折，我們碳費效法這樣的精神，所以定價300塊，可是針對某些特定高排碳的產業提供優惠方案A，一公噸只要50元，其他產業如果透過一些先進技術的話，事實上每公噸只要收100元，又因為擔心我們的高排碳產業可能導致所謂的碳洩漏風險，所以我們又訂出了一個排放量調整係數，50元再打2折，所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢，比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜。","部長，我的看法是，根據美國環保署的研究來看的話，每噸排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊，約新臺幣5,800塊耶，所以我們定價打折的結果，對臺灣的環境跟我們廠商的減碳是不是有效果？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們不能只看那個價格，我舉例以某些1,000萬噸的排碳業者來看的話，它要做到減個100萬噸所花的成本就如同你說的，可能是一噸要5,000塊，我們其實是不要一下子就給它拉到這麼高，初步的讓它有一個誘因來做，所以我們是設定一種打折的原理。我跟委員報告，我們跟日本討論的結果，他們反而很羨慕，他們覺得我們的制度比較有彈性，他們要來跟我們學習，所以這個其實是一個折衷後的結果、鼓勵的結果。"],["林委員月琴：可是真的是這樣嗎？我剛剛講的是外部成本會造成我們減碳的效果，所以我比較質疑這一點，原因很簡單，是因為對比這些公司的營收，尤其這三大戶，像台塑石化、中國鋼鐵跟台積電，如果比照剛剛你自己的報告裡面有特別去提的，如果按照排碳大戶，我覺得排碳到1,000萬公噸的工廠的話，最低只要繳交1億，他們收的是上兆的營收，可是碳費只要繳1億，這樣子到底有效嗎？所以我想問一下部長，營收數千億，而碳費只占它營收的九牛一毛，你覺得這樣的力道、誘因是否足夠？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這件事情牽涉到有些臺灣的企業，其實我們跟經濟部也討論過，他們也完整的讓我們了解說，的確我們的AI產業很不錯，可是有很多傳產業，像中鋼、中石化，他們經營上其實遇到很大的困難，所以我們這一次完全是採誘因的方式來進行。但是也跟委員報告，我們發現其實這個制度很困難、很辛苦，沒有辦法兼顧每一個企業，所以我期許自己未來我們是要走到總量管制的碳交易，會比較有人性，會比較更符合需求……"],["林委員月琴：部長，我還是說一聲辛苦了，因為碳費制定當然很不容易，可是也必須要深刻檢討。我從質詢一開始到現在就質疑，我們的單價高於對照國，可是又打折打到欠缺誘因，這個質疑的聲音不是只有我這樣講。10月7號定價一出，工商團體、環保團體，甚至連我們的行政部門經濟部通通都不買單，大家最有共識的就是一致不諒解這樣的定價跟作法。","所以，部長，你自己來自我們民間團體，過去你對於很多，甚至碳費這個你也知道事實上應該是臺灣未來必經之路，可是過去我們很少看到一個政策出來之後沒有一方，有時是政府會滿意，或者是民間團體會滿意，可是現在沒有一方是滿意的，我覺得這對於新政府來講是一個警訊。這一點我覺得政府必須要深深警惕，千萬不能忽視，要嘛就是即時調整我們的政策方向，要嘛就是要講清楚、說明白，否則現在民間事實上還是存在著很大的疑慮，所以，千萬不要存著行政部門的傲慢來逼民間吞下這樣的一個結果。","關於碳費的未來，我有四個問題要問我們的部長，第一個，目前根據環境部給我的資訊，這也是上個會期我就有問的問題，就是我們徵收碳費的範圍大概只占全國排碳量的55%，其他45%排碳量的部分，預計何時會擴大徵收範圍？"],["彭部長啓明：這部分目前我們兩年會檢討一次，同時我們也會觀察國際的趨勢，舉例來說像歐盟，他們的ETS第二階段大概在2027年要涵蓋到85%，那個影響層面就很大了，所以我們會觀察國際走向並且兩年來檢討一次。"],["林委員月琴：好。第二，這也是上個會期我一直很關心的，就是當初我們比較不希望有2.5萬公噸的免徵額度，可是現在已經確定是事實，請問免徵額何時降為1.5到1萬公噸？再來，環保團體比較關心的是我們排放量的調整係數，所以二、三期大概何時會啟動？"],["彭部長啓明：這個大概也是要兩年，因為目前其實初期應該不會那麼快，我們希望經營到可能兩、三年以後有一個基準年，有一個成效之後我們再來看。但是我也必須跟委員報告，其實做這個決定，一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業，這是最大的問題，所以我們比較期待未來能實施總量管制的碳交易，才會製造減碳的生態系。"],["林委員月琴：好。第三，你接受媒體採訪的時候也講說，你們跟歐盟的官員有就這部分交換過意見，就是說未來事實上是可以去銜接的，可是我要問的是我們臺灣版的，剛剛你也提過說我們要做，那到底是明年會去草擬臺灣版的CBAM，還是什麼時候完成？有依據嗎？已經規劃了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，我們要要求進口的，就是我們本地要收碳費的業者，如果競爭對手有進口的一定要去申報，我們會協調經濟部還有財政部一起來做這個事情。第二個，關於台版的CBAM，其實這是很複雜的，我們也在觀察歐盟，因為歐盟要到明年年中細節才會出來，現在都還是試行申報的階段，所以我們希望等到明年他們的方案出來，全世界整個趨勢明朗之後，我們一定會來做這個事情。"],["林委員月琴：這是工商團體在問的，因為他也擔心我們對自己國內的企業徵收碳費，可是如果國外的進到臺灣來卻沒有管制的話，那對他們來講一樣也是不利。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：最後一個問題就是，我們徵收碳費之後，未來你的用途到底是什麼？根據國際勞工組織今年4月所提出的一份報告顯示，氣候變遷對工作環境的安全衛生與勞工的健康有很大的關係，有很多行業事實上會受到影響，像高溫、紫外線輻射、極端天氣事件還有工作場所的空氣污染等等，都會造成一些勞工的健康問題。所以想問一下，未來你碳費使用的方向是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳費這部分要一年半後才會收到，目前根據氣候變遷因應法裡面所規範的用途，大概就是會用於跟減碳相關的事務。當然，我也跟委員報告，其實我接受到地方政府首長跟我的要求，加起來超過1,000億，許願池啦，但是我們只有60億……"],["林委員月琴：不過我還是期待，未來收到的碳費的使用，我還是希望有部分是用於照顧國人的健康……"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員月琴：這才會是全民受惠，畢竟事實上這是因為氣候變遷帶來的一些影響之後，那收到的一些費用是不是可以用於照顧國人的健康，這樣子也會比較獲得國人的支持。謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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這個其實我在民間的時候就在做這個事情所以其實第一個他是地方政府跟中央政府一起要來合作所以其實目前我必須跟委員談成關於熱 熱傷害並沒有一個中央組織部會是負責這個熱的事情"},{"start":63.314,"end":65.977,"text":"謝謝部長因為都市最多的就是建築物和道路的路面因為白天會吸收非常多的太陽熱能"},{"start":81.354,"end":81.374,"text":"市長"},{"start":98.008,"end":107.891,"text":"內政部但是事實上我們了解他並沒有把這件事當作優先的這個項目那您在今年7月31要跟環境部跟衛福部還有勞動部有共同主辦的一個一場氣候邊遷高溫調適的對策研討會所以就你也提到剛剛你也這樣說了對於極端熱這個做法目前並看不出哪一個部會會來主責所以我自己想要拜託部長我也剛剛也聽到你有這樣的回應就是說是不是由部長跟部長帶領環境部大家對於這個"},{"start":127.817,"end":127.977,"text":"第5條、第3項、第9款"},{"start":154.369,"end":154.609,"text":"請問部長您支持我這樣的一個修法建議嗎?"},{"start":172.293,"end":195.334,"text":"謝謝委員 委員你這個方式非常的好但是我也回去跟因為這個是氣候變遷整個行政院氣候變遷的這個永續會的一個主要的一個功項但是我也坦承這個熱我們並沒有去重視所以委員再給我們一點時間我待會去研商但是我非常肯定委員能夠給我們一樣一個實際上的建議都是行政跟立法部門一起來努力"},{"start":196.175,"end":219.585,"text":"部長另外一個議題就是前幾天有一個報告內容是來自環境部的檢測報告那很多人看了非常驚訝就是醫院的放流水含有抗生素而且竟然這麼多家醫院包括好幾家醫學中心嚴重超標那台中榮總是那個黃胺類的藥品超標大概兩三倍那其每醫院有三項抗生素嚴重超標其中那個頭包子菌類的抗生素超標了3700多倍"},{"start":221.866,"end":247.376,"text":"那就是聯衛福部的桃園醫院他也被驗出說這個這個中文叫福奎諾同類的抗生素他也高出這個標準許多那麼這兩天這個中榮跟這個部桃他都陸續對外公開澄清這個行政院退伍會說他們檢驗的結果都符合標準這件事有點嚴重部長就是說他說他們沒有但是那個環境部的檢測報告是有"},{"start":248.897,"end":267.297,"text":"那是不是說要有個公正的第3次再做一次還是說大家可以比對一下你檢驗的方法檢驗的時間點等等等等就是這個是有關中融中融他說他是符合標準的就是退伏回來說明那衛福桃醫院講的就是水中抗生素可能來自服用病人的"},{"start":267.918,"end":269.499,"text":"因為這麼嚴重的抗生素超標不是水污染的問題"},{"start":286.664,"end":286.764,"text":"陳昭姿議員"},{"start":302.802,"end":316.313,"text":"無藥可用結果大家就知道所以抗藥性一直是一個非常重要的問題那醫院這個環境跑出這個問題所以部長到底就發生什麼事情就是說為什麼他們會有不一致的說法部長你可以稍微簡單的說明一下這個發現嗎其實這個我們是用"},{"start":319.615,"end":342.5,"text":"第一個大家相信環境部的這個中立的客觀的態度我們檢驗方法是用最嚴格的標準來看那這個是針對這個所謂的抗生素的標準不是放流水的標準所以醫院的確他有些超過基本的數值然後非常的多有些醫院但是我也必須說他沒有立即的危害但是我們長期來看對環境一定會有一些影響所以我們其實未來我們也希望醫院可以主動的能夠來檢討然後持續的追蹤"},{"start":343.8,"end":344.56,"text":"每家醫院環境部都用代號稱呼"},{"start":359.85,"end":359.95,"text":"吳清福隨報4章"},{"start":386.548,"end":413.675,"text":"根委員報告因為這個是屬於還不是那我這個是屬於我們的一個研究的一個調查那這個像現在的這個康生素項目還沒有列入我們現在的放流水標準那現在就是在評估哪些項目要怎麼樣做管制所以我們有篩選的這一些關注的項目90項那分年做了一些調查那還是在調查當中那還不是一個標準的方法"},{"start":415.896,"end":416.496,"text":"指出自主管理的建議,但是建議都提出來了"},{"start":438.183,"end":458.886,"text":"就是建議他們要怎麼做但是沒有裁法就算說最後研究計畫結束我們真正要進行去處理的話部長那是不是說應該要有裁法嗎也許你可以說第一次發現第一次發現我們是限期改善那沒有改善這裁法還是最有用的因為這個抗生素抗藥性產生是不得了的好嗎部長就是要往這個方向去做管理可以嗎"},{"start":459.346,"end":459.787,"text":"臺南的沿海也開始出現藍眼淚"},{"start":474.264,"end":502.166,"text":"那近期有這個學者指出事實上藍眼類他是工業排放這個磷酸鹽或矽酸鹽所累積的生態反撲學者說藍眼類應該是一種環境污染的指標他不是奇蹟他是警訊就是排放的高濃度的碳磷酸鹽會造成河口沿海的這些生態跟養殖的負面影響那環境部對於這個水源保護區碳磷酸鹽的排放還是有管理"},{"start":502.506,"end":523.099,"text":"但水源保護區以外部長你認為水源保護區以外的磷酸鹽的管理是不是要納管目前沒有管理包括其實自然的磷酸鹽像這個藍眼淚這個其實OK的但是如果像這樣的非自然的是屬於工廠工業牌上的都跑出藍眼淚了所以我們其實8月24號已經修改了預告的這個法案年底會開始公告所以這個磷酸鹽我們已經設定了標準所以部長這個建議是已經在進行"},{"start":532.005,"end":534.527,"text":"中科臺中園區環境小組在2016年有會議上率先請中科管理局訂定了零酸鹽的自主管理但我們沒有簽到其他的科學園區有跟進"},{"start":551.383,"end":579.377,"text":"有編著這個小表給你看看我們從這個資訊可以來看兩件事情第一個單一管理區各園區標準不一你看竹科園區它是60mg每一升但是這個龍潭園區它是120差了兩倍這第一個管理標準不一同一個園區第二個國科會有放任北中南三個科學園區各自為政有些有管理有些沒管理有些有定有些沒有定所以這樣的一個放任結果就是一國多治"},{"start":580.377,"end":600.888,"text":"那環境部是不是要把總齡這個要做一個管理有一定的標準而進行總量管制還是說讓國科會自己去管理?部長沒有委員其實我們已經預告了年底會發布我們第一階段是150然後25我們會分階段來進行所以包括不會讓國家這個放任這個過去的總齡管制是一國多制囉"},{"start":601.598,"end":602.179,"text":"部長覺得03管制要不要入法?"},{"start":619.458,"end":641.14,"text":"我們現在的這個草案裡面已經年底就會重視...因為如果你不重視這件事你一定是重視你才會把這次的這個失業廢水調查局、污染管理、房居管理計畫這個有把列入嘛,把零算列入,就是你們重視這件事情嘛所以是不是部長一定要去執行,不要說科學園區它的標準比較寬鬆,那環境部的比較嚴,那一國多治啊"},{"start":641.34,"end":641.44,"text":"陳昭姿委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:14:06 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09:24:55","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155397","gazette":{"lineno":216,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時14分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。今天您報告了碳費的收費標準，碳費就是為了因應整個氣候變遷的關係，環境部既然從早期的環保署升格為環境部，我想國人跟民眾對於環境部會期許要承擔更大的責任。我今天有幾個議題跟部長做討論，第一個，就是都市的熱島效應現在越來越嚴重了，不知道部長對這個部分有沒有一個基本的解方？就是都市熱島效應，需要哪一些部門？哪一些政府機構來配合？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我在民間的時候就在做這個事情，第一個，它是地方政府跟中央政府要一起合作，所以目前我必須跟委員坦承，關於熱傷害並沒有一個中央主責部會，到時候我也會再跟行政院報告是不是誰要來主責，如果未來希望環境部來主責，我個人是非常願意來進行這樣協同的規劃。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長，都市最多的就是建築物，因為道路的路面白天會吸收非常多的太陽熱能，造成都市即便到了晚上都還持續在發散這些熱能，對於這個我想基本上有幾件事要做，都市的綠化覆蓋率還有建築物、道路鋪面的建材等等。其實，它的目的事業主管機關是內政部……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是事實上我們瞭解，內政部並沒有把這件事當作優先的項目。在今年7月31號環境部、衛福部還有勞動部共同主辦一場氣候變遷高溫調適對策研討會，所以剛剛你也提到、也這樣說了，對於極端熱的作法，目前看不出哪一個部會會來主責。所以我這裡想要拜託部長，我剛剛也聽到你有這樣的回應，是不是由部長帶領環境部擔起治理氣候變遷的主責，去協調跟要求其他部會來做這件事？","部長，為了讓您能夠有法源跟武器來協調當中相關的部會，本席已經針對環境部主責的氣候變遷因應法提出了修法的草案，我在第五條第三項增訂了第九款，是讓環境部可以依此來要求內政部等部會來配合，推動都市環境綠化覆蓋率的提升，還有從建築的技術、工法跟建材來提升建築的能效。請問部長，您支持我這樣的一個修法建議嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，你這個方式非常的好，但是因為這個是整個行政院氣候變遷──永續會一個主要的工項，但是我也坦承關於熱，我們並沒有去重視。所以委員再給我們一點時間，我帶回去研商，但是我非常肯定委員能夠給我們一個實際上的建議。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，行政跟立法部門一起來努力嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，另外一個議題，前幾天有一個報告，內容是來自環境部的檢測報告，很多人看了非常驚訝，就是醫院的放流水含有抗生素，而且竟然這麼多家醫院，包括好幾家醫學中心嚴重超標。臺中榮總是磺胺類的藥品超標大概2、3倍；奇美醫院有3項抗生素嚴重超標，其中頭孢子菌素類的抗生素超標了三千七百多倍耶！就連衛福部的桃園醫院，也被驗出中文叫氟喹諾酮類的抗生素，它也高出這個標準許多。這兩天中榮跟部桃都陸續對外公開澄清，行政院退輔會說他們檢驗的結果都符合標準，這件事有一點嚴重，部長，它說他們沒有，但是環境部的檢測報告是有，是不是要有一個公正的第三者再做一次？還是說大家可以比對一下你檢驗的方法、檢驗的時間點等等，這個是有關中榮，中榮說自己是符合標準的，就是退輔會有說明。而衛福部桃園醫院講的，水中抗生素可能來自服用病人的排出，那簡直是白講嘛，本來就是這樣啊，醫院照顧病人、擔心病人會感染，不管是預防性使用或是治療性使用，抗生素使用是跑不掉的，這只是說明來源，但是這個還是要處理。","部長，因為這麼嚴重的抗生素超標，它不是水污染的問題耶，它背後反映更重要一個問題叫做抗藥性，這個抗藥性一旦產生，超級細菌就會存留下來，這個就是「適者生存」所謂的超級細菌，這樣一旦病人有感染細菌，我們有可能無藥可用，無藥可用的結果，大家就知道了。所以抗藥性一直是一個非常重要的問題，而醫院環境跑出這個問題，所以部長，到底發生什麼事情？為什麼他們會有不一致的說法？部長，你可以稍微簡單的說明一下這個發現嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，其實第一個，大家要相信環境部中立客觀的態度，我們檢驗方法是用最嚴格的標準來看，這個是針對所謂抗生素的標準，不是放流水的標準，所以醫院的確有些超過基本的數值，然後有些醫院非常的多。我也必須說它沒有立即的危害，但是我們長期來看，對環境一定會有一些影響，所以其實未來我們也希望醫院可以主動的能夠來檢討，然後持續的追蹤。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你客氣了，沒有立即危害，但這搞不好已經持續很久了，我們覺得那個危害可能天天在產生。部長，我去跟環境部要了報告，是委託中興工程做的調查成果報告，發現報告裡面有幾件事情，第一個，每家醫院環境部都用代號稱呼，或是把醫院的名稱遮掩起來，為什麼要用代號或遮掩起來呢？這個問題滿嚴重的，為什麼要遮掩起來呢？你知道美國食品藥管理局，他們只要查到任何藥廠有哪一些不合格的就馬上公告上網，上網以後它可以改善，改善以後就沒有了，大家就會用這個方式來檢驗，就是以示公正，也讓國人有知的權利，為什麼把名字遮起來呢？"],["彭部長啓明：我請水保司長來回答。"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，因為這個是屬於我們的一個研究調查，像現在的這個抗生素項目還沒有列入我們的放流水標準，現在就是在評估哪些項目要怎麼樣做管制，所以我們有篩選了這一些關注項目90項，然後分年做了一些調查，因為還在調查當中，還不是一個標準的方法……"],["陳委員昭姿：我瞭解了，可是已經三年了，三年的研究計畫！"],["王司長嶽斌：對，因為項目非常的多，然後對象也非常的多，所以一般我們參考國外的作法就是分年會做調查，在分年調查告一個階段之後，我們把它公告為接下來要強制遞減申報、削減的一些項目。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝司長，但現在已經有建議啦，就是對這些醫院有提出自主管理的建議，但是沒有裁罰，建議都提出來了耶，就是建議他們要怎麼做，但是沒有裁罰，就算最後研究計畫結束，我們真正要進行去處理的話，部長，是不是應該要有裁罰？也許你可以說第一次發現的話我們就限期改善，如果沒有改善的話，裁罰還是最有用的啊，因為這個抗生素抗藥性產生是不得了的，好嗎？部長，就是要往這個方向去做管理，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，委員，我們9月26號預告這個的草案出來，預計未來如果超過的話，會罰一萬以上六百萬以下的罰鍰。"],["陳委員昭姿：好的，謝謝部長，我們下面還有一個很重要的議題。去年開始，除了馬祖，臺南的沿海也開始出現藍眼淚，近期有學者指出，事實上藍眼淚是工業排放磷酸鹽或矽酸鹽所累積的生態反撲，學者說藍眼淚應該是一種環境污染的指標喔，它不是奇蹟，它是警訊，就是排放了高濃度的磷酸鹽會造成河口沿海的生態跟養殖的負面影響。環境部對於水源保護區的磷酸鹽排放是有管理，但水源保護區以外呢？部長，你認為水源保護區以外的磷酸鹽排放的管理是不是也要納管呢？因為這個目前沒有管理耶！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實自然的磷酸鹽，像藍眼淚，這個其實是OK的，但是如果像這樣是非自然的，是屬於工廠、工業排放的就有問題……"],["陳委員昭姿：都跑出藍眼淚了！"],["彭部長啓明：所以，我們在8月24號已經修改了預告的法案，年底會開始公告，所以這個磷酸鹽我們已經設定標準了。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以部長，這件事已經在進行了？"],["彭部長啓明：已經進行了，對。"],["陳委員昭姿：那這樣我要談到高科技工業重地國科會科學園區的磷酸鹽的管理問題，我們先就中科來看，臺中園區環監小組不錯，2016年在會議上有率先請中科管理局訂定了磷酸鹽的自主管理，但我們沒有看到其他的科學園區有跟進，你看右邊的這個小表格，我們從這個資訊可以看出兩件事情，第一個，單一管理區各園區標準不一，竹科園區是60mg/L，但是龍潭園區是120mg/L，差了2倍，這是第一個同一個園區，管理標準不一。第二個，國科會放任北、中、南三個科學園區各自為政，有些有管理有些沒管理，有些有訂有些沒有訂，所以這樣的一個放任結果就是一國多制。環境部是不是要把總磷做一個管理，有一定的標準，然後去進行總量管制，還是讓國科會自己去管理？部長？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，委員，其實我們已經預告了，年底會發布，我們第一階段是100、50然後25，我們會分階段來進行，所以今年年底會發布管制……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以不會讓國家放任過去的總磷管制是一國多制了？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，現在以我們為準，這個總磷管制……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我再確定一下，就是總磷管制這件事，不是國科會而是環境部，是嗎？我這樣解釋對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是環評，這個是環境影響評估裡面的，當時個別要求的一個標準。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長覺得磷酸管制要不要入法？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在的這個草案裡面已經……年底就會正式公告。"],["陳委員昭姿：你一定是重視，你才會在這次的事業廢水調查及污染防治管理計畫把磷酸鹽也列入，就是你們重視這件事情嘛……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以部長一定要去執行，不要科學園區的標準比較寬鬆，環境部的比較嚴，然後一國多制！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，就全部以我們為準，這個在年底會公告，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-3","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","涂權吉","陳菁徽","柯志恩","李坤城","高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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