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全民健康保險法"},{"start":1945.257,"end":1969.566,"text":"交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查6至8委員翁曉琳等禮具中華民國刑法考試院組織法交司法及法制委員會審查老人福利法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查9至10委員羅志強等禮具公職員選舉罷免法交內政委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法及法制委員會審查11委員王以敏等禮具國土計劃法交內政委員會審查12至20委員李昆城等禮具地方制度法交內政司法及法制兩委員會審查用戶保護法交經濟委員會審查保險法娛樂稅法預算法證券交"},{"start":1975.683,"end":1997.228,"text":"廢紙319槍擊事件徵象調查特別委員會條例立法委員行為法立法院職權性施法教施法及法治委員會審查第11屆第24委員曾經會等你具反歧視法教內政委員會審查保護所有一期工人及其家庭成員權利國際公約施行法教外交及國防社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查國民體育法教教育及文化委員會審查身心障礙者權益保障法教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查第25"},{"start":1997.728,"end":2019.775,"text":"委員復婚期等禮具﹖預算法交財政委員會審查26委員﹖零儲應等禮具﹖臺灣地區大陸地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查27委員﹖存運徵等禮具﹖離島基本法交經濟內政財政三委員會審查28至29委員﹖陳冠廷等禮具﹖文化資產保存法交交易局文化委員會審查﹖文化藝術講述及促進條例交交易局文化財政兩委員會審查30委員﹖宗家兵等禮具﹖娛樂稅法交財政委員會審查"},{"start":2022.157,"end":2037.191,"text":"31-35委員徐富奎等理區國家公允法交房法交內政委員會審查學校衛生法特殊教育法交教育及文化委員會審查國營太陽鐵路股份有限公司設置條例交交通司法及法治兩委員會審查36委員徐志傑等理區立法院公費助理任用法交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2038.112,"end":2059.22,"text":"三七至四三委員 邱志偉等已去國家安全法交內政委員會審查反滲透法交內政司法及法治兩委員會審查兵役法交外交及國防委員會審查加值刑及非加值行業稅法交財政委員會審查國民體育法交交易局文化委員會審查廢紙交通部台灣區國道高速公路局組織條例交司法及法治交通兩委員會審查就業保險法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2060.901,"end":2071.373,"text":"44448委員陳秀寶等理據性別平等工作法勞工保險條例交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查青年基本法教師法交教育及文化委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2073.904,"end":2094.384,"text":"49-58委員羅廷偉等你居國土計劃法交內政委員會審查交易經費編列與管理法學校衛生法交交易及文化委員會審查毒品危害防治條例交司法及法治委員會審查職業災害勞工保護法人體器官移植條例壓體基礎施法緊急醫療救護法優生保健法安民緩和醫療條例交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查59委員徐玉珍等你居道路交通管理處罰條例交交通委員會審查"},{"start":2095.405,"end":2117.268,"text":"有10-61委員侯孟楷等禮具都市更新條例交內政委員會審查身心障礙者權益保障法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查6-63委員沈伯央等禮具反滲透法交內政司法及法治兩委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法及法治委員會審查有4-66委員蔡易瑜等禮具證券交易稅條例交財政委員會審查不義遺址保存條例學生輔導法交交易及文化委員會審查"},{"start":2118.609,"end":2134.235,"text":"6、7至7月委員陳英等已據原住民族土地利用諮商同意參與條例原住民族紀留地法交內政委員會審查離島建設條例交經濟委員會審查國民體育法交教育及文化委員會審查社會福利基本法老人福利法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2136.168,"end":2163.072,"text":"7.3至7.4委員林思明等禮句克與發展法交內政委員會審查道路交通管理處法條例交交通委員會審查7.5至8.10委員賴日榮等禮句威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例災害防救法交內政委員會審查離島建設條例交經濟委員會審查保險法交財政委員會審查國營港務股份有限公司設置條例交交通司法及法治良委員會審查自動安全管理法交交通委員會審查8.11委員黃潔等禮句威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例"},{"start":2163.732,"end":2182.726,"text":"交內政委員會審查8日至8期委員吳佩儀等已據都市更新條例威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例交內政委員會審查娛樂稅法交財政委員會審查青年基本法不以移植保存條例交交易及文化委員會審查律師法交司法及法治委員會審查88委員洪森漢你撤回醫療法你請院會同意撤回"},{"start":2183.971,"end":2205.805,"text":"八九至九零司法院含金審議稅務行政事件審理法行政法院組織法交司法及法治委員會審查九十一經濟部含重設立亞灣IC研發中心進度專案報告交經濟委員會處理九十二陸委會含重臺灣與澳門避免航空企業雙重課稅協議成效報告交內政委員會處理九三至二三二內政部行政院經濟部農業部財政部經管會交通部抒發部"},{"start":2206.986,"end":2222.481,"text":"法務部、審計部、衛福部、海委會、陸委會、黨場會、外交部、僑委會、國防部、退伍會、公平會、國發會、中央銀行、主計總署、文化部、國客會、通常會、工程會、司法院、園民會、中研院、交易部、監察院、勞動部、環境部等含送書面資料交相關委員會"},{"start":2225.538,"end":2243.275,"text":"233-243 設法及法制 財政 教育及文化 內政 外交及國防 經濟 交通 社會福利及衛生 環境委員會 海岸 威育決算法審議期限及年度預算執行期間請查照案244 社會福利及衛生環境委員會 海岸 威育行政命令審查期限請查照案國民黨黨團提議專列1-2委員許曉新等女具學生輔導法教教育及文化委員會審查"},{"start":2244.176,"end":2246.278,"text":"消防法交內政委員會審查3."},{"start":2246.278,"end":2249.8,"text":"高精素煤等擬具原住民族基本法交內政委員會審查4."},{"start":2249.8,"end":2260.329,"text":"紅夢海等擬具道路交通管理處罰條例交交通委員會審查民進黨黨團提議陣列5-6委員王振旭等擬具醫療法全健康保險法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查7."},{"start":2260.329,"end":2264.972,"text":"成營等擬具國家中醫藥研究院設置條例交司法及法治社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2267.424,"end":2293.903,"text":"8至9委員吳立華等已去國家委員研究發展中心設置條例交涉法及法制交易及文化兩委員會審查原住民保留地權利回復及開發管理利用條例交內政委員會審查10至13委員黃潔等已去人權紀念場址保存條例交交教育及文化委員會審查自從安全管理法政府採購法交交通委員會審查性別平等工作法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查14至24委員黃潔等委員沈伯央等委員郭育晴等委員張鴻祿等委員張雅玲等委員林月晴等委員吳秉瑞等"},{"start":2295.724,"end":2323.049,"text":"委員陳培宇等、委員蔡宜宇等、委員林一金等分別擬聚臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查六十五行政院韓清審議114年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第五期特別預算案民警院會定期舉行會議邀請行政院長、主席長、財政部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告114年度施政計劃114年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第五期特別預算案編制經過並備諮詢"},{"start":2325.745,"end":2327.286,"text":"好謝謝那宣讀完畢我們現在請委員依序發言第一位我們請省委員伯陽發言"},{"start":2362.712,"end":2386.844,"text":"謝謝主席那有針對第11屆第2會期第5次會議議程報告事項執行事項及對行政院院長施政報告繼續執行建請照議事日程草案及增列報告事項通過抵押人民主進步黨立法院黨團沈博洋好那第二位我們請林委員國程發言"},{"start":2396.567,"end":2417.7,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團針對第11屆第2次第5次的議事日程草案除了針對報告事項14案到24案以及25案建議暫緩列案外其以報告事項執行事項對行政院長的施政"},{"start":2419.021,"end":2437.246,"text":"這報告繼續執行 均照這個議事日程草案以及各黨團針對報告事項通過是否得到 敬請公解 臺灣民眾黨利宴黨團好 謝謝林委員 那下一位我們請莊委員瑞雄發言"},{"start":2447.964,"end":2466.951,"text":"我是要怎麼給你 林國城我是要怎麼給你稱讚啊 我也知道明天就要協商 我真的是沒辦法稱讚你啊你像比如說你說把這個總預算你又站立 這個我是覺得非常不好啦 為什麼呢第一個啊 林國城委員 你跟我不是只同鄉平東而已"},{"start":2468.957,"end":2468.997,"text":"主席"},{"start":2492.643,"end":2508.315,"text":"中央政府前專中央部份如果說治水那是中央管的河川那個執行率國民黨裡面跟民政黨每次在講說那個是今年執行的是去年的預算今年要用的去年都已經用好了這話只對1%啊為什麼因為執行率現在10月底到9月份已經99.1%了"},{"start":2516.189,"end":2526.198,"text":"那剩下0.9%是要幹什麼的0.9%就是要留下來已經繼承已經要做的事情所以現在預算是多少今年要執行的預算去年所編的多少是0啊那這次山頭的颱風來以後我看看屏東高雄台東那麼多地方地方政府大家在那邊哀哀叫說沒錢啊中央趕快下來"},{"start":2539.431,"end":2553.619,"text":"我看部分黨派幾乎都是這樣 國民黨的委員也是這樣子阿你像以這次台東來看好了阿你們這一次光這些縣管河川被土石流山頭河帶下來土石流把它沖垮的你們現在列出來是多少災損多少呢 36億欸阿你們黃建平委員說趕快喔中央給錢來支援地方喔結果你們現在的總預算你們根本就不讓他過阿"},{"start":2562.281,"end":2562.421,"text":"前瞻基礎建設"},{"start":2583.903,"end":2607.224,"text":"阿你沒得審 沒得審 阿地方在吵架你們這個矛盾嘛 我不想破壞這個氣氛啦但是我必須要提出來就是說昨天中國這樣的一個立建的一個軍演中國的海警局四個編隊 我們海巡弟兄採取一巡防艦加一巡防艦二對一的因應我相信大家看到了 捍衛國家的決心 不容質疑這也是穩定我們全國的一個民心"},{"start":2609.466,"end":2617.965,"text":"可是我們在律法院裡面你這個總預算你這樣一把它擋你沒有看到今年國防預算新增就多少415億耶包含我們整個潛艦國造耶"},{"start":2620.055,"end":2632.621,"text":"這個讓我想起來就很大的一個感慨啦不要再一直在說那個今年的已經去年編了我們現在講的都是新增的我們講到現在的治水跟防災的地方本來就是沒有錢執行率都已經超過99%沒有錢了那你說還有錢錢在哪裡不是要中央支持地方嗎那我們應該立法院來稱這個政府才對啊"},{"start":2642.541,"end":2651.149,"text":"所以明天要協商啊 我要看你戰略啊當然不要管他表面眼睛啦但是我還是苦口婆心啦 不罵人啦 不罵人啦我還是覺得說像昨天老共將的一個軍演以後啊讓我去想到一段故事啦二戰的時候啊"},{"start":2661.537,"end":2679.105,"text":"納粹他就入侵法國當時候擔任法軍的曾擔任法軍的總司令那個人叫貝當他在當他們的一個總理結果他選擇向希特勒投降他跟他們國內的一些政治人物選擇就是去投降可是有一位叫做戴高樂"},{"start":2683.459,"end":2702.809,"text":"他組了一個 自由法國 抵抗納粹德國對法國的一個佔領結果呢 到最後啊 把納粹啊 把他給趕走了所以我今天不發脾氣 各位好好想一想軍演剛結束 我們國防預算 你們也不讓他放行"},{"start":2703.933,"end":2706.735,"text":"先大家盡量注意一下時間那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":2737.833,"end":2758.487,"text":"市主席還有各位委員大家好我其實不是我也不是來罵人的但是呢我想要針對莊瑞學委員剛剛說的我們不是退回總預算我們是認為行政院所編列的114年的預算不合理沒有依法行政該編不編完全"},{"start":2763.278,"end":2790.264,"text":"這個把國會所通過的法律然後視為無誤在這樣的一個情況之下立法院擁有的權利當然就是要求行政院要重新編列合理的預算而且他是可以補這個直接就是去提修正預算的部分的這個修正案在過去都有例子的"},{"start":2791.124,"end":2817.522,"text":"所以我們不是要去退回總預算只是暫緩審議這是民進黨在過去一直在那裡造謠放話認為說我們是要退回總預算我們不願意讓這個114年的預算通過不是這麼回事那麼這個部分的話是要求行政院你要尊重民意你要能夠聆聽大家的聲音而不是一直死槓在那邊"},{"start":2819.116,"end":2820.117,"text":"該編的不編從編一個進法補償條例的這個補償費用的預算有這麼困難嗎今天如果說是我們放行了"},{"start":2830.748,"end":2835.331,"text":"看起來好像認為說這個原住民的補償這個進法補償費用沒有多少我們就放行了這個行政院不編也無所謂那麼下一次可能我們再通過其他的法案是對人民有利的這個增加福利的法案那是不是行政院也可以不編呢所以這件事情這並不是說是一個小事而是這個從這個事情就可以看得出來就行政院他到底有沒有"},{"start":2859.369,"end":2884.585,"text":"尊重立法院尊重國會那這個部分的話請大家要了解謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請王煌威委員發言我們待會那個王煌威委員發言完畢之後我們就停止登記"},{"start":2886.81,"end":2893.112,"text":"主席還有各位同仁我不曉得張瑞雄說要罵人到底要罵什麼事實上大家都知道韓國瑜院長會在這個星期也就是星期五之前就會進行朝野協商所以只要行政院他能夠依法行政依照法定預算來編列預算"},{"start":2913.547,"end":2913.707,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2929.712,"end":2943.438,"text":"帶來的兩串香蕉完全沒有提到任何的解決方案請問一下如果我們沒有辦法解決法定預算沒有依法編列的問題難道我們要讓我們的政府變成詐騙集團嗎大家想想看以原名進法補償條例它是一個經過立法院通過經過總統府公告實施的法案"},{"start":2959.799,"end":2974.027,"text":"公告實施法案給我們的人民給我們的民眾他依照我們中華民國政府所公告實施的法律來請民補償的時候然後我們告訴他對不起我們根本沒有編吶我們根本沒有編吶難道政府在詐騙我們的人民嗎行政院又大詐騙集團對不起喔我們立法院不奉陪我們在野黨也不會奉陪"},{"start":2988.755,"end":3006.623,"text":"所以非常重要的是我們在這次的草野協商也就是在禮拜四早上的草野協商行政院要提出讓人信服的一個解決方案所以民進黨動不動嗤水欲順現在又來軍演是怎樣"},{"start":3007.935,"end":3019.403,"text":"又來牽扯丟紅帽子是不是提國會改革法案丟紅帽子討論總預算丟紅帽子下次我們只要講在這邊講話就是中共同路人嗎你們Logan玩不玩嗎只會玩這個這一招嗎不能好好來談總預算嗎不能好好來依法行政嗎依法編預算嗎每天只會丟紅帽子"},{"start":3036.612,"end":3044.154,"text":"這樣的執政黨根本是不負責任我們現在是避免我們的政府避免我們的執政政府變成詐騙集團所以我們還是會希望在星期四早上朝野協商的時候行政院能夠很負責任的提出依法定預算來編列"},{"start":3061.215,"end":3080.722,"text":"預算就可以審查啦所以如果不提的話卡預算的是誰想要卡預算的是民進黨啦故意不提啊故意這樣子啊然後丟你紅帽子啊玩這個這招最會啦真正卡預算的變成是民進黨好不好你們自己好好想一想好謝謝那我們下一位請郭育群委員發言"},{"start":3095.68,"end":3113.847,"text":"主席好 各位這個立法院的同仁大家好剛剛講到那個禁法補償我再次強調禁法補償連園民會都已經站出來打臉了禁法補償只有7%的原住民可以真正領到你們知不知道很多的原保地是建民登記真正加匯到誰"},{"start":3115.848,"end":3141.958,"text":"真正損失到誰另外93的原住民其實是沒有辦法領到這個你們現在一直在不斷的帶風向這個叫做是公務預算公務預算加上所謂的基金他這裡來講其實有編列他就是會給只是要怎麼給才不會犧牲到其他93%的原住民再次強調不要一直在帶風向說我們政府這6萬已經不給了"},{"start":3143.579,"end":3168.813,"text":"拜託回去好好念書好嗎再來講到編列的公務預算再加基金的一個調度進法補償是一定會給只是要怎麼樣合理的給不會犧牲到去擠壓到其他只剩下10%原住民能夠用的預算不是犧牲原住民不要天天拿著原住民來當自己的擋鏡牌當自己的遮羞布丟臉啦"},{"start":3170.234,"end":3196.806,"text":"另外這陣子我都到桃園因為我也要認陽選區我看到桃園的地方交通的建設昨天我去參加了國三以及台66線的開通典禮你們國民黨的委員到場麥克風一拿希望地方能夠跟中央再要更多的補助希望中央可以來補助我們的地方我們的交通建設才能夠繼續的進行結果現在呢"},{"start":3199.827,"end":3214.757,"text":"全部暫緩 你們黨的只有這些嗎 不止吧 不止吧中共昨天軍演 我們今年114年度的國防預算總共是6470億 增加了464億然後呢 你們黨削弱自己國防預算 拜託團結一點可以嗎"},{"start":3225.675,"end":3251.4,"text":"還有護理師的夜班費因為你們黨沒了再來我們的長在3.0沒了再來我們的治水預算再次的強調包含我們的災準金包含我們的第一預備金第二預備金講的都是當年度但是災後的修建一定會是跨年度的跨年度的新的預算不過你地方啊啊叫中央不補助我們能怎麼辦兩手一攤你們這邊就全黨啦"},{"start":3254,"end":3273.993,"text":"不要胡謂混沌 不要亂帶風向 不要造謠 可以嗎他不是說好今天不要吵嗎"},{"start":3275.706,"end":3276.307,"text":"下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":3304.488,"end":3321.663,"text":"主席各位同仁我其實都沒有罵人我們對一句話對事情的解讀那個是幾乎是千差萬別大家的感受差距太多了我剛講的其實包括委員你這太激動一點我完全沒有在丟紅帽子"},{"start":3322.924,"end":3339.349,"text":"我剛講的話的危言大義是在講說我們在享受和平時刻的時候我們剛好這些面臨到剛好昨天老共的這樣的一個歷屆的一個演習我們剛好這個總預算裡面新增的這些官行預算"},{"start":3340.089,"end":3358.496,"text":"不要因為我們在這邊因為政治攻防把他給耽擱了就這麼簡單如果真的要講紅帽子的話我也不會去講各在場各位啊我一定會講你們最明顯的你們的馬前總統他就是在紅帽子他自己戴的啊我怎麼會去扯我整個總預算裡面怎麼會去講各位呢但是各位你要去好好想一想啊你們真的要去好好去想一想啊這些預算"},{"start":3364.5,"end":3377.751,"text":"你把他拿來當政治工房你好多議題都可以拿來當政治工房今天特別我剛開宗明義就點出來了總預算跟今天所謂的大家要讓他造列的是前瞻基礎建設的經費"},{"start":3381.335,"end":3399.566,"text":"這些事最主要了不起在立法院在工房裡面只是大家吵來吵去哪一些地方不應該那麼多可是呢到最後用的時候大家都一直搶啊所以不要以為說今天這個工房是在丟黃帽的 完全都沒有 完全都沒有我很在意的是說現在已經快10月 超過10月半了我們真正剩下的一個總預算審議期間剩下一個半月的時間欸"},{"start":3406.653,"end":3424.886,"text":"我的藥是這個你們拿來當政治工房然後說我們丟你紅帽子這個我就不接受了所以我在這邊還是苦口婆心真的禮拜四禮拜四我們要來這樣做一個協商那是不是今天我會多保留一個善意今天看這個看能不能招聶位我跟他說錢真的花不去了不管是台東也好不管是屏東也好各縣市也好真的"},{"start":3432.651,"end":3432.811,"text":"主席"},{"start":3464.258,"end":3469.594,"text":"不是就要協商了幹嘛講那些好那我們下一位請那個廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":3482.205,"end":3509.277,"text":"其實這一次總預算的問題是行政院在踐踏立法院行政院踐踏的是立法院行政院不是只踐踏國民黨行政院不是只踐踏民進黨抱歉行政院不是只踐踏國民黨民眾黨還有無黨籍的立委行政院是連民進黨的黨團的立法委員都一併踐踏了我不曉得為什麼還那麼多民進黨立法委員在這邊幫行政院"},{"start":3512.84,"end":3535.527,"text":"發聲來幫他護航其實這次總預算的鎖在這邊鑰匙在誰的手上這次總預算的鎖鑰匙就在行政院的手上行政院只要做一件什麼事情叫做依法行政依法編列預算這次總預算的鎖就會解開了"},{"start":3536.94,"end":3564.605,"text":"我再次強調這一次口口聲聲許多民進黨的委員說國民黨民眾黨無黨籍的委員在卡治水預算在卡國防預算等等的就在這個預算我想民眾其實這一次看得非常的清楚這很明顯的又是一個認知作戰而已民眾非常清楚我們國民黨民眾黨以及無黨籍委員的主張就是希望"},{"start":3565.285,"end":3586.598,"text":"行政院依照中華民國的法律去編列應該要編組的預算今天試想我們今天短編的是原住民進法補償預算如果今天短編的不是原住民這個進法補償預算呢如果今天行政院短編的也是法定的預算老農津貼呢民進黨一樣要護航嗎民進黨一樣要護航行政院嗎"},{"start":3592.399,"end":3592.579,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3611.877,"end":3629.35,"text":"就在這個所的鑰匙就在行政院的手上只要行政院願意依法行政依法編列我們國家所法律制定的法定福利預算我們國民黨的委員民眾黨委員吳董傑一定非常樂意加速後續的預算的審查以上"},{"start":3634.548,"end":3636.109,"text":"請問對沈博洋委員的提案有無異議"},{"start":3660.973,"end":3685.065,"text":"委員會議程草案的內容草野黨團沒有辦法達成共識所以原例我們將本次議程草案提報院會處理請宣讀人民請願案人民請願案一韓送本院消防委員會審查者共三案二一立法院執行刑事法第六處條規定韓轉機關處理政府者共三案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":3688.758,"end":3701.911,"text":"請問有無異議沒有異議的話通過那請問有無臨時提案臨時動議有沒有沒有那本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-4","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第5次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","委員發言時間":"11:45:00 - 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我們一樣的做法我們一樣會請行政院把所有應該要編足的法定預算把它編足無論是原住民無論是農民無論是任何國家所法定的社福的津貼我們都是一樣的立場就是要求行政院補足所以今天這把鎖就在 這個鎖的鑰匙就在行政院的手上只要行政院願意依法行政依法編列"},{"start":152.668,"end":161.922,"text":"我們國家所法律制定的法定福利預算我們國民黨的委員民眾黨委員吳長傑一定非常樂意加速後續的預算的審查以上"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-4","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:27:52 - 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各位同仁 我其實都沒有罵人我們對一句話 對事情的解讀那個是幾乎是千差萬別 大家的感受差距太多了我剛講的 其實 包括委員 你這太激動一點我完全沒有在丟紅帽子"},{"start":25.646,"end":42.101,"text":"我剛講的話的危言大義是在講說我們在享受和平時刻的時候我們剛好這些面臨到剛好昨天老共的這樣的一個歷屆的一個演習我們剛好這個總預算裡面新增的這些國防預算"},{"start":42.802,"end":63.63,"text":"不要因為我們在這邊因為政治攻防把他給耽擱了就這麼簡單如果真的要講紅帽子的話我也不會去講各在場各位阿我一定會講你們最明顯的你們的馬前總統他就是在紅帽子他自己戴的阿我怎麼會去扯我整個總預算裡面怎麼會去講各位呢但是各位你要去好好想一想阿你們真的要去好好去想一想阿這些預算"},{"start":67.23,"end":80.481,"text":"你把他拿來當政治攻防你好多議題都可以拿來當政治攻防今天特別我剛剛開宗明義就點出來了總預算跟今天所謂的大家要讓他造列的是前瞻基礎建設的經費啊"},{"start":84.065,"end":102.337,"text":"這些事最主要了不起在立法院在工房裡面只是大家吵來吵去哪一些地方不應該那麼多可是呢到最後用的時候大家都一直搶啊所以不要以為說今天這個工房是在丟黃帽的 完全都沒有 完全都沒有我很在意的是說現在已經快10月 超過10月半了我們真正剩下的一個總預算審議期間剩下一個半月的時間欸"},{"start":109.363,"end":127.795,"text":"我的藥是這個你們拿來當政治工房然後說我們丟你紅帽子這個我就不接受了所以我在這邊還是苦口婆心真的禮拜四禮拜四我們要來這樣做一個協商那是不是今天會多保留一個善意今天看這個看能不能招聶位我跟他說錢真的花不去了不管是你台東也好不管是屏東也好各縣市也好"},{"start":134.719,"end":157.354,"text":"真的很多都不是只有你說中央沒有辦法做好那你可以罵中央可是很多縣管的地方真的是沒有錢必須要向中央來求援我們把這些新增的這颱風臨時來的啊那確實是去年變得今年預算全部花光光啦那我們還不給他就讓行政院一直在那邊講移緩計級移緩計級行政院來不及只能應付這一句啊這是我們國會議員該有的態度嗎以上謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-4","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:24:56 - 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各位這個立法院的同仁大家好剛剛講到那個禁法補償我再次強調禁法補償連園民會都已經站出來打臉了禁法補償只有7%的原住民可以真正領到你們知不知道很多的原保地是建民登記"},{"start":24.355,"end":51.904,"text":"真正加惠到誰真正損失到誰另外93%的原住民其實是沒有辦法領到這個你們現在一直在不斷的帶風向這個叫做是公務預算公務預算加上所謂的基金他這裡來講其實有編列他就是會給只是要怎麼給才不會犧牲到其他93%的原住民再次強調不要一直在帶風向說我們政府這6萬已經不給了"},{"start":53.524,"end":78.762,"text":"拜託回去好好念書好嗎再來講到編列的公務預算再加基金的一個調度淨法補償是一定會給只是要怎麼樣合理的給不會犧牲到去擠壓到其他只剩下10%原住民能夠用的預算不是犧牲原住民不要天天拿著原住民來當自己的擋鏡牌當自己的遮羞布丟臉啦"},{"start":80.183,"end":106.752,"text":"另外這陣子我都到桃園因為我也要認陽選區我看到桃園的地方交通的建設昨天我去參加了國三以及台66線的開通典禮你們國民黨的委員到場麥克風一拿希望地方能夠跟中央再要更多的補助希望中央可以來補助我們的地方我們的交通建設才能夠繼續的進行結果現在呢"},{"start":109.773,"end":125.981,"text":"全部暫緩 你們黨的只有這些嗎 不止吧 不止吧中共昨天軍演 我們今年114民部的國防預算總共是6470億 增加了464億然後呢 你們黨 削弱自己國防預算 拜託團結一點可以嗎"},{"start":135.644,"end":161.381,"text":"還有護理師的業單費因為你們黨沒了再來我們的長照3.0沒了再來我們的治水預算再次的強調包含我們的災準金包含我們的第一預備金第二預備金講的都是當年度但是災後的修建一定會是跨年度的跨年度的新的預算不過你地方要挨叫中央不補助我們能怎麼辦兩手一攤你們這邊就全黨了"},{"start":163.763,"end":164.144,"text":"好啦 那個"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-4","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:21:34 - 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同路人嗎?你們有梗玩不玩嗎?只會玩這一招嗎?不能好好來談總預算嗎?不能好好來依法行政嗎?依法編預算嗎?每天只會丟紅帽子"},{"start":162.756,"end":170.299,"text":"這樣的執政黨根本是不負責任我們現在是避免我們的政府避免我們的執政政府變成詐騙集團所以我們還是會希望在星期四早上朝野協商的時候行政院能夠很負責任的提出依法定預算來編列"},{"start":187.159,"end":187.379,"text":"好 謝謝那我們下一位請"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-4","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:17:59 - 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立法院擁有的權利當然就是要求行政院要重新編列合理的預算而且他是可以補這個直接就是去提修正預算的部分的這個修正案在過去都有例子的"},{"start":61.448,"end":69.614,"text":"所以我們不是要去退回總預算只是暫緩審議這是民進黨在過去一直在那裡造謠放話認為說我們是要退回總預算我們不願意讓114年的預算通過不是這麼回事那麼這個部分的話是要求行政院你要尊重民意你要能夠聆聽大家的聲音而不是一直死告在那邊"},{"start":89.44,"end":90.441,"text":"該編的不編從編一個進法補償條例的這個補償費用的預算有這麼困難嗎今天如果說是我們放行了"},{"start":101.072,"end":105.633,"text":"看起來好像認為說這個原住民的補償這個進法補償費用沒有多少我們就放行了這個行政院不編也無所謂那麼下一次可能我們再通過其他的法案是對人民有利的這個增加福利的法案那是不是行政院也可以不編呢所以這件事情這並不是說是一個小事而是這個從這個事情就會看得出來就行政院他到底有沒有"},{"start":129.68,"end":134.004,"text":"尊重立法院尊重國會那這個部分的話請大家要了解謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-4","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:15:34 - 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國民黨的委員也是這樣子阿你像以這次台東來看好了阿你們這一次光這些縣管河川被土石流山頭河帶下來土石流把它沖垮的你們現在列出來是多少災損多少呢 36億欸阿你們黃建平委員說趕快喔 中央給錢來支援地方喔結果你們現在的總預算你們根本就不讓他過阿"},{"start":121.892,"end":122.012,"text":"前瞻基礎建設"},{"start":143.49,"end":167.812,"text":"阿你不愛審 不愛審 阿電影在吵架你們這個矛盾嘛 我不想破壞這個氣氛啦但是我必須要提出來就是說昨天中國這樣的一個利劍的一個軍演中國的海警局四個編隊 我們海巡弟兄採取一巡防艦加一巡防艦二對一的因應我相信大家看到了 捍衛國家的決心 不容質疑這也是穩定我們全國的一個民心"},{"start":169.053,"end":178.115,"text":"可是我們在律法院裡面你這個總預算你這樣一把它擋你沒有看到今年國防預算新增就多少415億耶包含我們整個潛艦國造耶這個讓我想起來就很大的一個感慨啦不要再一直在說那個今年的已經去年編了我們現在講的都是新增的啊我們講到現在的治水跟防災的地方本來就是沒有錢執行率都已經超過99%沒有錢了那你說還有錢錢在哪裡"},{"start":196.843,"end":204.345,"text":"不是要中央支持地方嗎 那我們應該立法院來撐這個政府才對啊所以明天要協商啊 我要看你戰略啊 當然不要管他表明而已啦但是我還是苦口婆心啦 不罵人啦 不罵人啦我還是覺得說 像昨天老共這樣的一個軍演以後啊讓我去想到一段故事啦 二戰的時候啊"},{"start":221.126,"end":238.714,"text":"納粹他去入侵法國當時候擔任法軍的曾擔任法軍的總司令那個人叫貝當他在當他們的一個總理結果他選擇向希特勒投降他跟他們國內的一些政治人物選擇就是去投降可是有一位叫做戴高樂"},{"start":243.066,"end":262.417,"text":"他組了一個 自由法國 抵抗納粹德國對法國的一個佔領結果呢 到最後啊 把納粹啊 把他給趕走了所以我今天不發脾氣 各位好好想一想軍演剛結束 我們國防預算 你們也不讓他放行"},{"start":263.561,"end":263.821,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-4","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:10:45 - 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這真的是一個不平靜的時代從烏克蘭戰爭到中東的衝突那麼中國又適宜的隨時的在臺灣的周遭進行任何大大小小的這個狀況這個已經不奇怪了現在是未來可能的就是金融上面的破壞尤其是在烏克蘭戰爭發生之前"},{"start":1944.804,"end":1973.46,"text":"就做了一些金融體系的恐嚇甚至發動假的訊息說給所有烏克蘭的手機說ATM領到錢了這件事情會不會在臺灣發生我們做好準備就拿昨天的例子昨天早上總統一早召開了國安高層會議聽取各方報告之後做了重要的指示隨後行政院也希望回來之後通令各部會我們希望在這個股會是經濟民生"},{"start":1974.56,"end":1997.354,"text":"還有治安方面,尤其治安可能就跟委員所說的,我們希望臺灣的所有的跟民生相關的,或者是重要基礎設施,任何的治安的保全都要非常的盡到狀況。 那昨天我們是有做過。 院長,我只關心今天只要回答我,金融兵推去年10月12月有做,今年做了沒?做好準備了沒?還是你們已經有相關的答案,非常穩,非常已經有把握不需要再做了?"},{"start":1998.069,"end":1998.089,"text":"沒錯﹖"},{"start":2024.571,"end":2039.602,"text":"所以院長其實我現在的問題是發生事情因為現在有點像狼來了每天演習演到最後大家心理上面就沒有戒心了第二個他如果真的要發動動作的時候比如說他真的發個假簡訊告訴大家說ATM領不到錢"},{"start":2041.862,"end":2060.198,"text":"臺灣人可能有人會相信那這個部分其實政府要增強人民的信心而且要有建立正確的管道這個部分的金融兵推我覺得現在要做而且平常就要教育我們的民眾從現在開始可能金融上面的第一關是每個民眾都非常在意的"},{"start":2061.119,"end":2086.523,"text":"你看,烏克蘭發生戰爭第一件事情大家就是幹嘛?領錢,然後討難。 這兩件事情會是第一,優先。 所以這個部分,金融兵推,去年做過,今年可能還沒有完成。 那院長上任,我希望,是不是變成常態性的。 第二個,是不是有具體的兵推之後的檢討,跟相關的經濟的作業,甚至我希望開始要增加人民的信心。"},{"start":2088.804,"end":2110.511,"text":"關鍵基礎設施、民生維生系統、通訊系統以及金融系統、交通系統,這個都是在我們全社會任性防衛當中,我們都會把它當作非常重要的事情來處理。我同意,因為我在財政委員會,最關心的是我們三大龍頭,我們自己能不能先穩健,第二個,"},{"start":2111.311,"end":2137.068,"text":"一戰爭就要增加軍費,人民要繳更多的稅,第三個我們的錢夠不夠,我們有沒有準備好這些軍費,這才是我們關心的,好嗎?那委員說最近以來這種軍艦、軍機各種的演習很多,狀況很多,來的時候我們不慌不亂,沒有的時候我們也做好所有的準備,也不會任何的放鬆,請委員放心。院長,我希望金融兵推在你上任之後我可以看到第一次的金融兵推,好嗎?"},{"start":2137.828,"end":2139.91,"text":"我會跟部長跟總裁我們怎麼樣讓國人安心表達我們已經做好了充分的準備 這個謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":2161.889,"end":2184.736,"text":"每次院長我都會問同樣的問題啊財政收支劃分法從您上任第一次的總質詢還有部長我們在財政委員會其實講的非常多次那現在國民黨團他們也提出他們的修正版本將要靠攏民進民眾黨版本也就是我們上一次所提的這個修正案那目前為止我想只問你一句話"},{"start":2185.396,"end":2209.037,"text":"行政院要不要休?休還是不休?你們要不要提出自己的版本?兩點跟委員報告,第一,我們認為現在的版本具執行是行政院最有把握的。就是你上次跟我說的嘛,已經是最佳的共識了。就25年來現在是最好的狀況。我們認為現在的版本來執行是我們最有把握的,而且我們會持續對地方政府做更多的補助。第二點呢?所以院長,"},{"start":2209.798,"end":2227.011,"text":"你認為只要按照大有為的政府來決定就好,所以不需要入法,不需要制度化,就是按照你們現在的版本就是最好的版本。之前陳水扁、蔡英文跟賴清德所說才化法要修正,他們是導彈鬼囉。"},{"start":2228.607,"end":2253.404,"text":"不是,這是這個時代的不同,時間的不同,我們各有不同的考量。時間的不同,我們只是希望把你講的最好的辦法入法而已。你現在所說的最好的辦法,我們希望它制度化、明確化,而不是單純的按照行政院自己的意志,而地方政府沒有參與的機會。沒有沒有,我剛剛只說了一點,我還有第二點,就是現在立法院的氣氛正朝向更好的方向發展。"},{"start":2254.445,"end":2254.525,"text":"臨時提案委員："},{"start":2276.295,"end":2302.477,"text":"所以民眾黨的原則很簡單第一個我們大概增加的是2700億的垂直分配對地方只會多不會少但是也不能影響到中央運作所以2700億是我們覺得合理而的確你們每一年大概也都剩下2000多億的隨機剩餘第二個部分是只要增加了在水平分配的部分原則上不會任何縣市都不會比現在少"},{"start":2304.923,"end":2305.243,"text":"所以我們要設定的是叫做"},{"start":2323.166,"end":2342.265,"text":"統籌分配稅款分配委員會,委員會的部分就會讓財政部跟地方政府有相關討論的過程,而且讓財政部保留他們可以調節所謂的一般性補助款,調節他們的統籌分配稅款,所以民眾黨版本沒有訂建,但是要討論。"},{"start":2343.626,"end":2360.396,"text":"院長我們在上個會期在財政委員會做了一個很好的決議希望你們提出自己的版本我現在只有簡單的問行政院是不打算提版本嗎還是要等黨團協商還是要破釜沉舟還是要垂死掙扎"},{"start":2361.404,"end":2385.596,"text":"跟委員說明一下,非常贊成委員剛剛提到,第一個財政收支劃分法這件事情,第一個我們的前提,第一個要兼顧地方財政需求,而且要維新中央的一個政經,來因應緊急的需要,我們也都在努力當中,那您提到的是垂直分配,那水平分配的部分事實上它更重要,因為涉及到同一方政府的分配,所以我們也召開會議,然後有更大的"},{"start":2388.237,"end":2394.502,"text":"這三個問題跟委員報告 行政院的版本在沒有更好的之前我們認為現在是最好的版本在進入法案審查之前我們認為現在的版本我們來執行是最有把握的"},{"start":2413.474,"end":2439.86,"text":"將來我希望我們還是透過很誠懇的朝野協商來達到大家共同的共識。院長,我們在財政委員會我想委員都非常善意,所以上個會期就希望我們幫的意見告訴了你們,我們沒有說硬要怎麼樣,但是今年這個會期看起來,包括我們的召委會牌,我們的版本也在裡面,我們也希望你們有版本大家一起討論,所以沒有人要強度關山,但是"},{"start":2441.061,"end":2469.539,"text":"行政院不能假裝沒看見這件事情假設在立法院通過你們又要再來搞一次復議嗎還是要再來搞一次釋憲呢我們希望在討論的過程當中要在製造朝野的對立我們要希望你們好好來討論朝野黨團好好的協商那行政院也能在適當的機會表達我們跟大院裡面的共同的討論沒錯所以拜託如果部長可以的話你說的水平分配你們認為有爭議的部分就拿到立法院來討論好嗎"},{"start":2471.052,"end":2499.063,"text":"好先暫停我們請金管會 黃主委部長請回黃主委請好這個主委上來就是院長我們還是要強調臺灣現在的融資公司其實叫做話外之地融資公司只要他有做公司登記任何公司都可以借錢給別人因為公司法只有規定40%以內資本額他就可以"},{"start":2501.297,"end":2528.395,"text":"借錢給別人所以我們現在坊間的融資公司各種樣態大大小小假買賣真貸款這種狀況非常的嚴重今年起訴了兩個士官兵洩密去抵債為什麼因為他們去跟不法的或者是不知道哪裡來的所謂的融資公司借錢還不出來就幹嘛回去偷機密"},{"start":2529.389,"end":2551.945,"text":"這是很嚴重的,剛剛我們講我們的國家安全很重要,然後我們的士官兵竟然用洩密來抵債,這個融資公司已經不單單只是社會問題了,它可能還是國家安全問題。另外這個部分就是我們主委也跟你談論過,我們台灣調查過的年輕世代的金融素養,"},{"start":2553.291,"end":2571.841,"text":"第一根極低竟然高達81%也就是大家不知道怎麼理財大家不知道要到哪裡去找到合法的融資管道然後甚至剛剛講的即使他已經是國軍官兵了他受了教育可能也不讓他不知道去哪裡借錢去借到了不該借的錢"},{"start":2573.598,"end":2596.534,"text":"更嚴重的是我們國軍的軍紀有一個規定嚴禁國軍向不法機構執押、執銷或營內籌組或聚會等情勢也就是說國軍不可以隨便去亂借錢也不可以去做一些執銷或者是說在裡面搞錢的事情但是我想問的是主委請問什麼叫做不法機構"},{"start":2598.355,"end":2611.984,"text":"報告委員,我講,全臺灣的公司只要是公司登記的就可以借錢,它是不是不法機構?是,報告委員,其實有關融資註定公司,在民國85年大家就開始討論到這個問題,到現在已經快30年,可見它的問題的複雜度,很嚴重"},{"start":2614.406,"end":2614.446,"text":"主席"},{"start":2645.03,"end":2645.231,"text":"一定會緩對不對"},{"start":2647.072,"end":2651.195,"text":"對這也是我們金管會也觀察到這個問題也也也承蒙很多委員"},{"start":2676.892,"end":2679.177,"text":"主委,我很清楚你的主張,院長,主委想做,你要不要指使他做?"},{"start":2689.261,"end":2715.836,"text":"當然支持,我是非常支持彭珠在這個方面的努力提出的方法。那我現在就講,在96年的時候張俊雄院長的時候已經訂了融資公司專法,而且當時就以金管會為管理機關。這件事情我相信主委也非常認真。然後我們看到全世界國家裡面大部分都會成立專責機關,目前只有台灣沒有。台灣是一個經濟部要管幾十萬家公司的人在管。"},{"start":2716.616,"end":2734.543,"text":"所謂的融資處理公司他等於沒管。 其實金管會有一些比較替代性的方案正在執行中。 主委我希望訂專法這個專法同樣的民眾黨我們已經提了版本我相信民進黨團裡面有非常的委員也很忠實這件事。 院長支持金管會把他納管"},{"start":2735.305,"end":2760.908,"text":"我支持首先必須納管再來可以考慮各種形式的專法將來加強他的登記條件以及他的審核要嚴審院長可不可以在一個月之內給我一個初步的回應把你剛剛所說的方向跟接下去要納管我希望至少要納管到幾件事第一個設立的資格資金的準備從業人員的資格還有信用管制跟放貸條件最重要的是違約金的上限"},{"start":2761.548,"end":2789.345,"text":"報告委員,剛剛說的都是軍管會最近跟我說明的內容,我希望它在完整之後,我們將...好,謝謝黃委員。好,謝謝卓院長。林楚英委員之質詢,以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。下一位請葛如君委員質詢。"},{"start":2809.24,"end":2812.631,"text":"謝謝主席。有請行政院主同臺院長。請卓院長備選。"},{"start":2822.912,"end":2838.436,"text":"各位早 早 金融韌性也是臺灣韌性的一部分 我們要對接國際那首先非常感謝我們的政府傾聽民意 採納本席的建議在9月30號的時候有正式宣布 開放專業投資人副委託來投資國外的虛擬資產的現貨ETF 包含比特幣等等"},{"start":2844.52,"end":2864.749,"text":"那這可以說是我們邁向虛擬世界數位金融的一小步但是也可以說是一大步但是這應該只是開始不是結束也應該不要停下來所以想先請教一下院長我們對於國內的金礦公司或國內的企業來自己發行我們國內的虛擬貨幣的ETF有沒有相關的研議"},{"start":2865.749,"end":2866.009,"text":"有機會持續跟上"},{"start":2886.721,"end":2907.991,"text":"好,那我想接下來還是要跟您分享一下我們在之前8月份的時候有受邀到日本參加WebEx的一個日本最大的活動之一那前首相岸田文雄也在上面講了Web3包含AI包含區塊鏈是解決社會問題的重要基礎"},{"start":2909.792,"end":2926.163,"text":"經濟產業大臣齋藤健也在主題演講當中提出日本正在迎來各種問題其實區塊鏈可能是解決這些問題數位金融解決這些問題的一個非常重要的創新方式日本正在推動自己成為全球創新中心"},{"start":2926.943,"end":2947.608,"text":"那當我們的鄰國抓住了這些金融科技的一些這個機會,想要變成中心的時候,反觀我們在臺灣,您上任以來說我們很創新、很行動,但是我們有看了你們上任以來推出的各項政策,對金融科技,剛剛我們也提到金融兵推,其實還是有點不太前瞻,想請教一下院長,"},{"start":2948.408,"end":2977.104,"text":"之前一直有傳言說金管會正要計劃組織、調整、要新設虛擬資產管理局。 請問目前研議的進度如何?報告委員,我想剛才提到委員確實我們在整個台灣的金融政策最近有一些比較大的不同。陳柱委員剛才講的,未來整個比如說金融科技的發展是一個很多國家關注的議題。那我們也開始在關注這一題,因為未來我們從傳統金融走向數位金融的過程當中,"},{"start":2977.944,"end":2978.244,"text":"中央政府組織規範"},{"start":2997.463,"end":3000.306,"text":"因為我們的理解是虛擬貨幣跟虛擬通貨都還是留在正期局那我想問一下正期局目前有多少人力來處理虛擬貨幣的業務"},{"start":3020.803,"end":3041.971,"text":"現在報告委員這確實是我們面臨到一個很大的問題這是我們在處理那個這個VASP的專法的時候陳鵬院裡面給我們13位人力但是因為這個人力要跟市場上在競爭非常的困難我們現在補充這個人力遇到很大的困難但是我們還持續在努力我們現在得到的是8位但不管8到13位這都是全部在做這個業務還是兼的"},{"start":3043.531,"end":3051.537,"text":"現在來講的話,現在來做,因為我們現在補的人還沒有到位,現在是由我們現在的同仁,大部分是由現在的同仁來兼任。"},{"start":3073.631,"end":3073.651,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":3098.699,"end":3123.17,"text":"這個院長能不能在此具體承諾﹖把緣惡也補充足﹖讓我們在虛擬金融、數位金融中心這一塊﹖找一點超車。謝謝委員﹖我們這個相關的這個業務是起頭中﹖那起頭之後﹖我想﹖窗口、人力﹖軍管會他會就人力的是不是足夠﹖您具體承諾他才有辦法嗎?他會就人力是否足夠﹖能力能不能去﹖如果他說不足﹖"},{"start":3124.13,"end":3124.891,"text":"今晚會議真的是很創新,10月8日有宣布"},{"start":3141.826,"end":3160.595,"text":"要開放銀行跟券商申請虛擬資產保管業務的事辦。 那我們拭目以待,希望據說明年第一季要正式上路,希望一定要準時,因為我們已經落後了。所以沒問題,我想這部分我們也是在,我剛剛跟委員報告過,我們傳統金融要轉型在未來的數位金融的時候,我們也要先讓銀行習慣這樣的一個發展,再來就是"},{"start":3163.456,"end":3163.636,"text":"臨時資產代幣化"},{"start":3188.07,"end":3206.669,"text":"那這個目前事辦的規劃,不知道院長知不知道Real World Assets的具體演繹跟規劃進度如何?有沒有業者提出事辦或實驗?我想這部分也跟委員報告一下,因為這也是一個很新的東西,我們也觀察到未來可能越來越多實體世界的資產可能透過剛才區塊鏈的技術"},{"start":3207.99,"end":3233.562,"text":"能夠做一些所謂代幣化代幣化可以做到24小時低成本的交易也可以做到信任所以我們現在組成了一個這樣的一個工作小組結合了銀行跟還有就是我們的還有證券公司還有我們的吉寶還有是相關的這些周邊單位正在組成一個工作群正在研議這樣的一個實驗中什麼時候會有相關的時程出來我想我們現在已經在進行中我想明年大概明年應該就會有一些具體的成績出來"},{"start":3234.042,"end":3258.573,"text":"好,如果有需要也記得編列相關預算到總預算裡面那提到RWA也要和院長談談這個可能是院長的高度要來關注一下我們的穩定幣Stable Coin因為RWA底下其實有一塊就是穩定幣穩定幣並不是一個虛無縹緲的東西要有人把真金白銀放到他的左手他的右手才可以在區塊鏈在數位世界裡放出等量的"},{"start":3259.053,"end":3259.233,"text":"主席"},{"start":3272.844,"end":3293.803,"text":"我們現在看到的這些國家,日本、新加坡、美國,都已經陸續納管,而且有的、還沒的也正在討論。 隨著相關的法案的上路,今晚會要提出的這個虛擬資產專法,會不會放進、會不會討論穩定幣的發行,格外受到矚目。 想請問一下院長,明年行政院提出的虛擬資產專法,會不會討論到或者納入穩定幣的規範?"},{"start":3299.023,"end":3319.445,"text":"報告委員,這個因為討論的現在過程還沒有到院裡面來,我想金管會會很充分的去掌握跟了解。是,我想在這邊跟委員報告一下,因為我們這個案子確實是,我們在上個會期有答應立法院,我們今年年底我們會提出一個草案,但是我們真正的法案剛剛陳徒院長提到了,我們到明年6月才會送到院裡面來。"},{"start":3320.266,"end":3347.038,"text":"有沒有穩定幣的部分剛剛委員提到就是說我們當時這部專法是先從洗錢防治開始出發我們現在走到第三階段我們現在第四階段是才會進行所謂專法專法這部分我們在研究報告裡面有在討論這個範圍我們還沒有確定我們還有經過公聽還有跟各個部會協商我們才會做確定我們現在還在研議中我們跟院長報告一下我們已經幫你做好功課了"},{"start":3347.478,"end":3364.408,"text":"目前我們台灣只有規範到穩定幣的交易面我們沒有辦法發行其實跟各國比起來已經非常落後了日本已經有可以發行而且他已經有牌照那當然我們不一定要做牌照的制度但是穩定幣在台灣現在是一個薛丁格的幣"},{"start":3365.208,"end":3387.33,"text":"不知道他到底是什麼樣的存在狀態請教院長行政院曾經邀集金管會跟央行跨部會協調穩定幣規範的權責分配有沒有做過還是有沒有要確定穩定幣的主責機關否則接下來明年可能全世界各國都會發行穩定幣而且是由企業不是由央行這個可不可以來承諾一下將來我們這個"},{"start":3389.472,"end":3390.113,"text":"總之最後專法出來一定會有一個"},{"start":3405.533,"end":3420.77,"text":"主管機關現在沒辦法決定,各國都已經,我們要不要再回去看其他國家到底有多少啊?然後我們現在還不知道主責機關是誰嗎?一個新的法律的研議的過程,我們會參考國外現行的例子,來做我們重要的參考,也要符合我國的國情。"},{"start":3422.452,"end":3436.608,"text":"複合國情是對的,但是這不能當作永遠落後的藉口。我們在金融中心指數排行全世界第73名,今年還降低5分。數位金融中心沒有排名,我們應該要早一點努力要超車嘛。"},{"start":3437.889,"end":3462.117,"text":"這個方向我們一定會朝這來走我剛才只是跟委員提到比如說有關穩定面跟交易面跟發行面本來就有很多不同的考量我是希望趕快落地下來到底哪一個主責機關院長您發揮您的領導統一跟高度趕快決定如果沒有確定的部會都討論那就等於沒有討論那我們接下來來看為什麼這些問題這麼的重要因為全世界都在擁抱數位資產"},{"start":3463.517,"end":3478.79,"text":"邁阿密的市長已經領了很多年用他的薪水領的是比特幣、數位貨幣。 路易斯安納州的財政部9月17日公告,州政府計劃接受加密貨幣作為支付國家費用的合法方式。 州長甚至說"},{"start":3479.591,"end":3481.152,"text":"這也是為什麼日本跟美國非常重視我們整理了很多各國"},{"start":3509.812,"end":3510.573,"text":"一般的國人"},{"start":3533.968,"end":3534.828,"text":"我向院長報告 現在有很多的詐騙集團"},{"start":3559.881,"end":3561.322,"text":"我們可以看到過去9個月來加密貨幣的議題已經跨越黨派了"},{"start":3588.573,"end":3595.638,"text":"民主黨的總統候選人現在是副總統他強調數位資產具有戰略重要性"},{"start":3597.246,"end":3620.206,"text":"特朗普說比特幣他要把它列為戰略儲備這已經是美國兩黨的共識了所以我想要問現在我們有沒有關注到像眾議院的培沃西跟七十一名民主黨員還支持了21世紀創新金融技術法案我們的不管是外匯存底我們的一些基金"},{"start":3620.766,"end":3621.006,"text":"請蔣總裁來說明"},{"start":3649.846,"end":3675.527,"text":"有關委員是提到就是說中央銀行的外資存底是不是可以考慮來納入這個比特幣不過我目前我跟委員報告我們也有經過審慎的一個研究到目前為止我們還不會把比特幣納入我們的外資資產那持續考慮可以嗎"},{"start":3676.734,"end":3695.865,"text":"當然當然,因為我想虛擬資產這是一個動態的發展,所以中央銀行也不會說一馬上就說要把這個比特幣把它納入我們的外資產當然要演繹,那院長我們如果要把戰略儲備裡面要納入比特幣,是哪一個部會啊?"},{"start":3697.955,"end":3713.727,"text":"這將來,到了我們該討論,讓它形成一套制度的時候,當然就是我們這個財經所有的部會來討論,將來一定會有需要的時候,到那個時候﹖需要的時候來不及了,您可不可以提前指示,提前造成會議﹖"},{"start":3716.209,"end":3743.374,"text":"最後我想說臺灣在人才上面本來是領先的,但是未來一定要您領導統一,希望所有的人我們一起打造Web3下一代的護國神山。謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝葛委員。好,謝謝卓院長。發言會現在在議場二樓旁聽喜的是國防大學政治系的同學,我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪。謝謝。"},{"start":3746.832,"end":3750.054,"text":"下一位我們請林德福委員質詢。謝謝大會主席江副院長。是不是請卓院長?請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":3776.089,"end":3804.532,"text":"林委員好 委員長你好 院長我請教因為財政收支劃分法25年來 絲毫未動那立法院在參議會在這個上個會期決議要求財政部必須在會期開始前提出草案那我請問院長為什麼到現在還看不到行政院修正的版本送進立法院那這裡面到底是財政部"},{"start":3806.058,"end":3817.354,"text":"現代執行職務還是行政院下令要求財政部無需要來提案所以說到現在還看不到行政院的版本 院長你有什麼看法"},{"start":3818.301,"end":3836.222,"text":"報告委員,我們在院內經過充分的討論,我一直認為現在的財政收支發分法,我們來執行是最有把握的,而且根據這部法律,過去幾年當中,我們對地方政府的任何的補助金額是持續在增加的,詳細數字我再請部長說明。"},{"start":3836.983,"end":3857.586,"text":"所以目前這樣實施下去地方任何的重大建設中央持續來加以協助都成為一種在財政合作上面的常態也符合我們的財政紀律但是在過去我所看的並不然啊不是你所講的啊因為地方跟中央為什麼說地方一直要爭"},{"start":3858.587,"end":3880.94,"text":"因為中央長權又長錢所以說才要才化法而且讓地方的政府大家商討大概有一個額度比較適當的額度而且財委會也在上個會期有做這樣的一個決議但是行政院認為不必因為25年來其實25年裡面"},{"start":3883.421,"end":3905.977,"text":"有藍有綠都執政過 但是才化法幾乎一次又一次的都有討論過那因為才化法制定以來就有許多當然不同的意見出現 所以說各地方政府也有來自不同的主張 那就算討論再多多半到最後沒有一個具體的結論 有媒體報導"},{"start":3907.498,"end":3932.094,"text":"行政院希望以中央用全國的高度以角度來看才能夠兼顧公平性合理性以及維護中央政府財務韌性等多重考量下來進行相關的法制規劃及調整那我請問院長以您的高度來看到底是由誰來提案才能夠達到真正的"},{"start":3933.376,"end":3936.545,"text":"客觀、公平、合理以及維護財政的韌性。"},{"start":3940.451,"end":3969.012,"text":"報告委員多年來中央地方的財政的合作一直呈現出很正面的價值現在各縣市地方政府的債務比例也持續在下降表示中央除了在工建計畫上面比如說捷運還有很多的這個科學園區的設計都是中央全力在支持的更有很多的道路系統交通系統跟防洪治水的預算都是中央全力在做而且相當多是跨縣市區域性的在做"},{"start":3969.632,"end":3996.228,"text":"這個如果單一縣市來做我想他在執行上會明顯的困難那中央累積過去這麼多年的經驗我們可以做到這樣的一個在財政分配上以及在各種建設的比例上我們做好好的規劃那我覺得現在這個財政收收發放法是目前來看最有把握執行的院長你的看法還是中央來分配就對了這不是分配中央地方的財政合作因為齁"},{"start":3997.108,"end":4023.645,"text":"以維護財政的韌性是中央政府還是地方政府還是財政部還是執政黨立委還是在野黨的立委因您看呢?沒有中央地方是財政的合作並不是我只是分配而已院長20多年來時空環境變遷那中央地方政府經歷多次政黨的輪替那為了鞏固執政權力充滿算計下的修法讓財化法"},{"start":4025.586,"end":4031.572,"text":"不是,報告委員,過去這麼多年來,我們透過一般補助,透過統籌分配稅款,以及各種交通跟其他各項的公共建設的補助,跟地方的合作"},{"start":4046.857,"end":4063.225,"text":"我想部長可以很清楚的數字來跟委員說明而且這個持續增加的那我請問院長難道一直沒有找到共識就能夠作為財政部不提出修法的主要理由還是擔心修法後出現中央與地方政府政治權利"},{"start":4064.425,"end":4076.075,"text":"這個整個失衡的一個結果又或者是根本就是考量算計執政和在野黨恐怕因為修法後失去政權所以說根本將財化法修法視為未圖 院長"},{"start":4078.696,"end":4079.137,"text":"說說你的看法。"},{"start":4095.05,"end":4116.145,"text":"開誠布公的來談,談的就是讓人民感覺到安心。 院長本席認為說有權就要有責,那有責就有法可循,那行政院應該要逆向的思考,重整修法邏輯的思維,我相信許多顧慮都可以迎刃而解,你的看法呢?"},{"start":4118.862,"end":4131.813,"text":"有權當然要有責啊當然財政跟事權必須要劃一但是在現行雖然沒有修但是透過中央統籌跟一般性補助款113年的金額達到6356億比105年成長46.7%而在114年更會增加900億"},{"start":4140.06,"end":4140.8,"text":"我相信這一次整個財政委員會絕對會把這個要是說"},{"start":4171.97,"end":4193.064,"text":"這個行政院不提出修法的版本那財委會現在做的一個決定到時候一定會送到院會來做最後的決定我認為要是由行政院來提出版本是最適當那既然行政院不提出版本我相信財委會最後一定會討論出一個結論來"},{"start":4195.686,"end":4217.78,"text":"我希望還是經過大院內部的協商以及兩院之間談這個事情。 行政院不是沒有版本,現行的版本我一直強調現在是最好的版本,我們看不到更好的版本。 那我就尊重你。 院長,臺灣消費者物價指數年增率已經連續3年超過2%,以往外界習慣定為2%為通膨的一個警戒線。"},{"start":4221.562,"end":4241.536,"text":"那央行解釋臺灣屬於小型開放的一個經濟體材具體彈性的整個物價穩定的一個定義應較為妥適。然而這個主計總署公布今年9月消費者物價指數CPI是1.82%疊回2%的通膨警戒線以下的數據來看請問院長"},{"start":4250.489,"end":4273.782,"text":"數據發生變化是代表國內通盆情況緩和還是只是短期現象的一個反饋?報告委員數據當然是一個非常科學的計算跟統計但是過去從COVID-19之後一直到世界這個戰爭的發生到底卻造成了很多原物料的上漲我們也必須承受這個部分但是相對的來看"},{"start":4274.881,"end":4301.984,"text":"相信數據我更重視的是我們到每一個小店家買東西的那樣一個感覺這個才是人民真正的生活我們希望這大家的基本的生活能夠穩定不要因為這樣的一個外在的國際因素造成太多的浮動所以我們在這次店價討點當中我們完全不調民生的用電用意就是在穩定民生其實齁你沒有調民生用電到最後一樣為什麼第一個"},{"start":4303.447,"end":4303.787,"text":"其實齁 院長"},{"start":4324.125,"end":4346.062,"text":"這個當然要苦民所苦啦,外面你看,所有你這個只要每天你去買便當,過去的便當到現在漲了以後,它下來,它絕對不會下來的啦,我相信你也很清楚,過去買便當大概70、80,最多100可以買到,現在你100買不到什麼,"},{"start":4347.743,"end":4350.125,"text":"所以說請問院長你對於未來CPI年增率的變化主計總署這樣樂觀的看待院長你的看法和主計處一致的嗎"},{"start":4375.589,"end":4402.415,"text":"現場﹖"},{"start":4404.046,"end":4417.376,"text":"雖然10月電價調漲的政策臺電評估出間接影響CPI超過0.03%雖然環境部宣布明年徵收的碳會對CPI影響約0.01%"},{"start":4419.497,"end":4427.201,"text":"除了剛剛委員所說的這兩項因素之外我們可控的部分我們盡量控制在我們合理的範圍當中但國際上的因素我們會做好萬全的準備"},{"start":4445.905,"end":4453.567,"text":"所以說漲了就下不來啦,所以說老百姓很多過去能夠買那麼多東西現在買不到,他的重複指數就越高越高啊。 現在也降到1.82,他還是會浮動的,只要這個跟國際的因素跟國內的季節關係各項方面"},{"start":4465.369,"end":4491.104,"text":"這個綜合起來還是會在我們可供的範圍內。好,院長,因為環球金融雜誌最新公布2024年主要國家央行總裁的評比,這個跟楊總裁有關係。我國央行總裁,這個我們楊總裁今年獲釋V家級的評等。那請問院長,針對今年環球金融雜誌對央行、楊總裁的評等,你有什麼看法?"},{"start":4491.624,"end":4493.165,"text":"我先幫楊總裁鼓勵一下再請總裁"},{"start":4518.134,"end":4530.655,"text":"要維持都是A家那是非常辛苦的一件事情但也維持了那麼久就像大谷祥平連續36次倒壘總會失敗一次但是失敗那一次不會影響他是偉大球員我們請楊總裁說明"},{"start":4532.028,"end":4561.317,"text":"那個 央行總裁你有什麼看法我想就中央銀行的立場來觀察他當然中央銀行還是就是說我們有持續努力的空間這是我的看法那是你很客氣的那個院長對於央行總裁平等的看法或許有許多不同的解讀但是對於央行政策到底要和國際央行接軌還是脫鉤我請問院長你有什麼看法"},{"start":4562.776,"end":4578.907,"text":"這個我覺得重要我一直認為我們的金融、匯率等等這個市場我們應該更國際、更開放、更自由、更創新所以要跟國際接軌央行也必須要做很多的創新那現在央行除了對國內的"},{"start":4580.401,"end":4582.964,"text":"主委院長 我再請教現階段到底我們應該順應潮流還是走自己的路 因您的看法"},{"start":4599.087,"end":4601.108,"text":"按照中華經濟研究院公布9月製造業採購經理人指數出現中斷先前延四個月的擴張轉為緊縮"},{"start":4619.298,"end":4639.951,"text":"是近半年來最低值從這項調查顯示國際景氣似乎有逐漸下滑的這種趨勢那院長你現在已經進入第四季央行為了打通膨打炒房似乎和現階段政策目標有一段距離啦換句話說說不定還有其他殺手間要推出請問院長如果未來國際景氣繼續往下"},{"start":4644.934,"end":4652.219,"text":"下修的話,現階段央行打通膨打炒房的做法到底是應該如何加碼,還是有條件的修正?"},{"start":4653.121,"end":4653.141,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4683.174,"end":4703.062,"text":"好,謝謝林委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請鄭正前委員質詢。謝謝主席,我要請一下周永泰院長。卓院長請備詢。"},{"start":4712.588,"end":4739.049,"text":"政委好,主委長好。我想說在財政這個領域做質詢一定要談到財政收支劃分法。那因為在今年6月19號的時候,剛剛立德福委員也問到了,我們財政委員會其實有通過一個臨時提案,就是要求財政部在這個會期開議前的時候,把院版的財政收支劃分法提出來,可是財政部沒有提出來,院長知道這個事情嘛對不對?是。"},{"start":4739.656,"end":4763.736,"text":"你知道嗎?所以這個部分是因為那個財政部沒有能力提出來還是行政院讓他們不要提出來?是,跟委員報告在6月19號的時候財政委員會的一個這樣的一個決議那要求財政部在這次開議之前提出修法版本那我們在當時的討論的時候也明白的說明這個部分"},{"start":4764.396,"end":4792.344,"text":"事實上有時間上限的一個困難,事實上因為共識下去的不是那麼容易,所以我們的報告一定很重要。 部長,因為從上個會期的時候,上個會期的召委他就開過了公聽會,而且也都質詢過了,那到現在,因為25年都沒有改,我覺得剛剛院長特別提到說,現在的版本是你們覺得執行起來最有把握的一個狀態,可是我覺得這不是不提行政院版本的理由,我提一個目前我覺得"},{"start":4793.604,"end":4821.255,"text":"目前整個財化法非常不合理的地方我以新竹市為例來說新竹市這邊的情況的時候部長、院長我們以去年整個創收的一個情況新竹市這邊的創收金額是2968億全國第三那麼人均的一個創收人均的創收是65萬"},{"start":4822.856,"end":4833.701,"text":"每個人65萬每個人65萬那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候可是我們如果單純所得稅這個部分全國一兆8346億當中新竹市的貢獻度達到3067億佔16.7%這是所得稅的部分那整個統籌分配的時候去年的狀態是4227億"},{"start":4850.828,"end":4857.422,"text":"新竹市只分配到了63.5億只拿到了統籌分配團裡面的1.5%"},{"start":4860.343,"end":4888.321,"text":"顯然新竹市創造了一個很高的一個貢獻度可是分配到的非常的少那我們再往下看我們看一下整個110年各縣市統籌分配稅款一般補助的分配表的部分因為剛剛院長提到了你跟地方配合的很好而且也給地方很多的一個支援地方要發展你都支持我給你看一下很具體的數字新竹市"},{"start":4889.562,"end":4913.442,"text":"人均創收65萬,然後佔據整個普通的統籌分配稅款下來的時候只佔了1.5%,非常的低,只有69億。那麼一般性補助款,你也提到一般性補助款,新竹市也很低,新竹市只有30億,而且只比金門、馬祖高。"},{"start":4914.52,"end":4936.992,"text":"比澎湖都低,這是一般性補助款。 從統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款加起來的時候,新竹市一年就100億。 跟它的上角的稅收貢獻度來說的時候,只有3.37%,顯然非常的低啊。 院長你看到這樣的數字,你不會覺得說對整個新竹市這邊的一個狀態,覺得應該要有所調整嗎?"},{"start":4940.739,"end":4948.305,"text":"跟委員報告,您提到這個就是一個水平分配的一個機制,因為目前分配在縣市之間的一個分配,因為現在的分配機制是直轄市先分配到61%,縣市24%,再來鄉鎮,所以這個部分我們目前在調整是為了大一分配。"},{"start":4963.155,"end":4963.175,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":4992.173,"end":5016.244,"text":"教育部去推的時候,教育部推的時候,我們現在地方根本沒有這樣的預算去配合。然後我再講一個狀態,針對我們目前整個的一個賴清德總統提出來的桃竹苗大細股計畫,說要把大新竹輕軌納入。大新竹輕軌納入的時候,院長,新竹市、新竹縣政府負擔不起這樣的財務狀態。"},{"start":5018.601,"end":5018.801,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":5050.067,"end":5052.81,"text":"發展所需要的一個資源。 難道這樣子有錯嗎?"},{"start":5052.81,"end":5052.83,"text":"院長。"},{"start":5054.809,"end":5081.885,"text":"三件事情跟委員報告交通的部分我已經再度請陳士凱部長能夠對新竹包括高速公路那一段的塞車狀況要及時提出一個可檢討的方式出來我希望委員再給我們一點時間那個桃竹苗大細股現在已經進入到一個相當成熟的階段但是還沒有到最後的定案在這個過程當中我們還是跟地方多多的溝通可以改變納進或者是調整各種的內容這是一個另外"},{"start":5082.403,"end":5105.728,"text":"你剛剛提到的,委員提到這個高中增班的機會,我知道過去是因為竹科的增加,國中小的增加,現在到了高中是必須增加,我們有在討論,不是完全沒有在討論。 是,院長,討論對民眾來講的時候,不是解決問題啊,討論這規劃本來就是行政部門必須要去做的事情。 是,討論之後就會實際的規劃,報告可行性。 我接下來,我還會繼續再"},{"start":5108.769,"end":5126.67,"text":"交通委員會我還會再繼續跟你問交通相關的問題你剛剛提到了一個高速公路就是舞陽高架延伸到苗栗這一段這個部分只是一小部分解決高速公路問題跟整個科學園區周邊的狀態其實還是沒有辦法解決所以大氣鼓計畫裡面的"},{"start":5129.605,"end":5152.234,"text":"大新竹輕軌我們其實我會再跟你來討論這個部分這個部分完全反映出了地方政府沒有足夠的能力去做好的基礎建設所以在科學人區工作的人目前17萬的工作人口他們每天塞車花掉這麼多的一個成本你覺得這是他們貢獻了這麼多稅收出來應得的一個狀態嗎?"},{"start":5152.234,"end":5152.254,"text":"院長"},{"start":5154.622,"end":5180.534,"text":"沒有,我們是在均衡臺灣的理念之下,或許我們可以用其他的時間跟委員再詳細討論一下桃子苗大矽谷這個計畫目前進展跟未來大家是不是還有更好的構想能夠來讓他調整一下。好,針對這個部分我在想說財政收支沒有真的做調整的時候新竹市永遠不會有足夠的錢去做好的一個基礎建設。我們也希望能夠像臺北市有好的捷運啊,可是新竹市一直都沒有。"},{"start":5181.694,"end":5206.07,"text":"規劃了這麼久,連規劃案都還沒有成熟。所以我們現在在討論的分配機制裡面就包含了一個基本建設的需求,因為均衡區域發展是分配財源非常重要的一個目的,以及做調整財政營需的一個目的。所以現在分配機制上我們一直都在討論。因為到目前我們看到的狀態,新竹市都是非常不公平的被對待,好不好?委員的意見我們納入,是。"},{"start":5207.736,"end":5230.081,"text":"所以我這邊很主張一個點就是希望地方的所得受的貢獻度能夠納入中央在做財化考量分配時候的一個依據 院長你可不可以答應這個部分因為跟委員報告其實各個地方的財政狀況完全不同"},{"start":5230.501,"end":5256.787,"text":"有十幾個縣市你把國稅全部他收起的國稅跟地稅都給他他都還不夠支出所以我們這個財務部長我了解這個狀態只是我剛把那數字提出來你覺得還是合理嗎新竹市貢獻了所得稅16.7%只分配到了統籌分配款的1.5%你覺得這樣合理嗎然後新竹市又不是像台北市有那麼好的捷運有那麼好的基礎建設都沒有欸還要繼續再發展才有辦法"},{"start":5259.549,"end":5259.61,"text":"就是不夠!"},{"start":5262.028,"end":5267.192,"text":"所以我們才有一般型補助、計畫型補助、各種的方式來做正面的計算。"},{"start":5291.784,"end":5292.425,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5322.525,"end":5347.986,"text":"卡到了一個狀態,就是原住民的一個進法補償的一個問題。那10月11日的時候,行政院的發言人李瑞芝表示說,院長當時沒有提出復議案是因為避免引發不必要的對立,然後不忍心,於心不忍,所以才沒有提出復議。 院長你是這樣講是嗎?"},{"start":5349.758,"end":5376.66,"text":"這只是中間那一段話,因為我後面那一段話是我明明知道,我認為,禁法補償這個法律案是違背了憲法70條的精神跟規定,也違背了預算法。我明明知道它的合法性有問題,但是我認為我那時候提復議案會造成更大的對立,我情願想用這一段方法來解決。"},{"start":5377.961,"end":5398.386,"text":"行政院如果對於立法院通過的法案﹐有覺得自愛難行之處﹐應依法提出﹐你沒有提出會議﹐就覺得你沒有自愛難行嗎﹐既然沒有自愛難行﹐賴清德總統其實也在6月24號公布了這樣的一個法﹐公布出來之後﹐行政院完全不甩﹐"},{"start":5399.557,"end":5421.966,"text":"然後預算送到立法院,立法院退回來之後,你們只要改一下之後再送進來,也許這事情就過去了,可是你們就硬不改。 我不曉得這個部分是人民會的問題,它不作為不依法行政,不依法編列預算,還是財政部沒有把所有的預算整合好,還是院長還是你下令?"},{"start":5422.987,"end":5424.949,"text":"這是一個原則問題。 我也向立法院提出過施政報告。"},{"start":5438.479,"end":5452.526,"text":"我們三讀通過的法案,行政院可以不編列預算,不依法行政,你說這個是你們的原則問題,那以後行政院都可以選擇性的依法行政就可以嗎?不是選擇性,報告委員,如果明年客家"},{"start":5454.207,"end":5454.227,"text":"三、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":5470.405,"end":5491.381,"text":"通過是這樣一個法案,行政院不做的時候還振振有詞,我覺得完全把台灣的民主制度踐踏在腳下,院長我覺得這是有問題的,而且我覺得你不去執行這樣子的一個立法,通院通過的一個案子的時候,我覺得你不只是在踐踏我們的原住民,我覺得你打臉,"},{"start":5493.3,"end":5511.194,"text":"賴清德總統因為他已經把這個法律案已經公佈了你不只是在藐視立法院而且你打臉賴清德總統這樣子的一個狀態你還振振有詞立法行政是這樣子做的嗎院長你知道我也來自立法院"},{"start":5511.974,"end":5530.058,"text":"我理解啊,而且雖然說你覺得現在這件事情你還很有道理,你不依照立法院的一個通過的法案去做,你還覺得很有道理。那當初我在這裡的施政報告就毫無意義啦,我的報告是這個,現在要我增加的所有其他的預算,我的施政報告無法執行了。"},{"start":5530.899,"end":5532.441,"text":"我來這裡施政報告是憲法賦予我的潛力"},{"start":5551.23,"end":5565.175,"text":"憲法有賦予立法院立法公算審查的權利,難道不是嗎?剛剛講說憲法明定沒有提出賦予的權利,你沒有提出賦予的權利,你還在這邊說三道四,這怎麼會是合理的情況?"},{"start":5567.176,"end":5591.859,"text":"立法院對於行政院所提預算案﹐不得為增加支出之提議。我們沒有增加啊﹐我們透過預算要你修改之後再算進來﹐這叫增加嗎?院長你們腦袋要清楚一點﹐立法院如果是增加預算﹐表示我們在審的過程我們主張增加﹐我們現在沒有增加﹐我們是透過你預算﹐你要修正之後再算進來﹐你現在一年你們提出來的預算當中"},{"start":5592.72,"end":5592.88,"text":"謝謝政委員"},{"start":5622.776,"end":5632.453,"text":"報告院會財政組織質詢已詢答完畢,休息10分鐘,休息之後進行教育及文化組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":6248.01,"end":6272.308,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會,進行教育及文化組織質詢。現在請林委員配響質詢。好,有請卓院長跟我們的教育部政部長。卓院長,請配詢。"},{"start":6279.641,"end":6283.366,"text":"鄭部長,是不是?委員好"},{"start":6284.955,"end":6308.571,"text":"總院長目前先是個實事題現在全球都滿關心的就是說我們本來派前副總統前行政院院長陳建仁去參加這次IPAC的活動但是被拒絕了那我想請問一下院長那未來的打算怎麼樣怎麼樣推出一個合適的人選去參加IPAC呢"},{"start":6310.722,"end":6322.526,"text":"張APEC領袖代表這個是總統跟總統府在作業行政院並沒有參與但是我看到相關的報導如果屬實我也覺得非常惋惜陳前總統陳前院長在"},{"start":6325.447,"end":6327.589,"text":"那如果行政院可以推薦人選,那請問院長您會有推薦哪一位?"},{"start":6350.051,"end":6356.558,"text":"抱歉這是總統職權,行政院不宜推薦任何人,總統有任何的吩咐我們就會去執行。"},{"start":6357.441,"end":6380.176,"text":"好,針對我們卓院長在10月6號特地來到基隆來勘災,那本席給予高度的肯定。不過呢,我這邊也必須跟卓院長報告一下,您特地來,然後您說要補助,您說要對於救災的補助。我這邊就覺得說,其實"},{"start":6382.778,"end":6404.29,"text":"您講的話,似乎很多單位並沒有好好地把您說的話,把它納進去。 新聞委員指教例如說,您10月6日來,10月7日有一個直接的勘栽活動,在基隆市中山區青龍山的產業道路,在大德國中旁邊。"},{"start":6406.23,"end":6420.99,"text":"當下國有財產局的第一線承辦人員當公務處處長跟我的秘書直接說院長來了說這邊會盡量補助那第一線人員居然回答沒有這個事我沒有聽說到"},{"start":6422.25,"end":6422.87,"text":"我記得我們是到新豐街"},{"start":6444.52,"end":6465.608,"text":"主持留他家的地方,看那個社區跟那條路,答應說當天晚上8點會通車,也是緊急的有通車了,那您說的那其他的地點,很抱歉,我沒有辦法把所有的人帶到所有的地方去,所以那個地點也許是財產署或是其他的單位接受委員或是議員的要求去現場看,"},{"start":6466.408,"end":6486.112,"text":"那他們要回來之後當然要統合整個經費的需求跟這個整個工程復原的先後順序再來做一項的處理我想給他們謹慎一點是好但是地方受到風災任何的這個傷害中央政府跟地方一定是通力合作來把它復原的"},{"start":6486.412,"end":6507.274,"text":"因為我會這樣講的原因是我期待我們行政院的各部門不是只有院長講的話之後下面的人就應奉陽違其實不管是誰執政都是很糟糕的公務人員的狀況那這件事情其實我會希望因為基隆市院長去過基隆知道基隆市很多山坡地"},{"start":6507.854,"end":6508.155,"text":"國有財產署高層下令"},{"start":6531.577,"end":6557.708,"text":"你請委員放心,無論是透過交通部門跟到交通部或是國土署到內政部或是您說的國產署到財政部,他們都會往部裡面去綜合整理所有地方報上來的需要一起合作協助的地方,那我們就會按部就班按程序來處理。我會特別請財政部再特別注意一下當天會刊的現場狀況,那事後跟委員做詳細的說明。"},{"start":6558.948,"end":6588.272,"text":"好,謝謝院長。 院長,那我是為什麼特地請我們鎮部長過來的原因,就是因為說,其實風災所影響的不是只有民宅還有道路而已。對於學校,尤其是說,其實院長上,院長對基隆蠻了解的。基隆多山,然後基隆很多,基本上所有的學校不是靠著山壁,就是在山上。那這次風災是基隆史上雨量最大的風。"},{"start":6588.812,"end":6588.952,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6616.906,"end":6634.888,"text":"因為我知道有哪些地方看起來沒事可是以前已經出過事的地方它附近的所有的區域也有可能會發生災害而且這種災害不是只有大雨來的時候會崩塌像說在那個曹慶那邊院長一定有介紹報告"},{"start":6635.689,"end":6637.09,"text":"那為什麼把這些事情拿出來呢?"},{"start":6652.139,"end":6678.458,"text":"我這邊有一些報告這邊就是說其實基隆市這次的在學校上面的風災非常嚴重那我知道說院長10月12號一到高雄就直接請國請國教署撥了800萬給受災的這些學校不過基隆我也必須幫基隆請院因為基隆這一次現在目前有估計到學校受災的地方就高達6200萬"},{"start":6680.379,"end":6695.662,"text":"那我也直接問過市政府他們目前的教育處跟災害補償金他們能夠不用多少他們跟我報告說差不多6200萬只有他們可以負擔到10%到15%其他真的付不出來"},{"start":6696.423,"end":6723.542,"text":"那也是因為這個原因所以說他們跟我講說委員如果沒有錢的話我們就只好把這些設施暫時性的把它封起來那讓學校保持安全可是學生的秀校審議就會受損害到所以我這邊有兩份資料我想請拿給我們的部長跟我們的院長來請說幫基隆人請益請你們幫幫忙這些事情"},{"start":6738.19,"end":6753.7,"text":"好的跟委員報告當天我不僅到基隆我到瑞芳的瑞芳高宮那上個禮拜我到高雄的前鎮國小區我想我們都是最關心第一個是住家的淹水再來就是學校的破壞"},{"start":6755.134,"end":6777.172,"text":"部長這邊已經有手上有資料,現在他已經有11所基隆市的學校受損,提出了一些需求,如果我們請部長稍微說明一下。謝謝林委員。部長不好意思,我這邊特地提一個啦,你看到我給你的資料,這第58項德和國小,那邊的受災其實相當相當相當相當嚴重。"},{"start":6779.656,"end":6808.333,"text":"那邊是整塊整個大樓基本上已經被土石流淹沒其實這整個預算裡面最貴的是德和國小這邊這邊不好意思基隆市真的浮不出來所以說這邊尤其是這一塊那我請中央單位請部長院長多多幫忙這個是昨天才照出來的實況那這個如果說無法修好的話德和國小我們就只能把它封起來"},{"start":6809.588,"end":6831.027,"text":"右邊這張圖昨天才照出來的還是這個樣子對沒辦法因為這怎麼清呢這4千上面已經被寫得很清楚4千多萬光這一筆其他的1千多萬其他的還可以說慢慢大家基隆市我們大家來也需要中央補助可是這一筆所以我剛剛為什麼講說地下水文的破壞"},{"start":6832.208,"end":6855.831,"text":"其實對於基隆市是有潛在致命性的傷害但是我們不可能在沒有災害發生之前直接去做監測這筆費用太貴我很清楚因為我之前問過光一個山頭就要兩三億但是至少發生災害了我們至少把他們的受教權把他們學生的權益把它一起幫他們恢復回來好不好"},{"start":6857.148,"end":6885.911,"text":"那這個現在學生的上課還是相當其實這是一棟大樓可是其實總共三到四棟大樓不過一棟大樓已經完全被淹過去現在只能靠剩下的三棟大樓來去支撐如果可以的話甚至說我下次辦會一看請教育部也派人來安排一下時間跟相關可以馬上到基隆重要的毀損嚴重的幾個學校看一看能夠適時的、急速的這樣幫大家來完成"},{"start":6886.752,"end":6902.353,"text":"這個我們要列為必要的優先謝謝委員關心我想我們會後我們下午就請國教署馬上同仁這個負責同仁到前往去這個德國小立集這個來勘查然後請專家看怎麼樣來協助"},{"start":6904.264,"end":6933.779,"text":"的很多是地方政府也要出來協助他們他們很樂意他們很樂意這是地方政府主動跟我講說這比太大一般來講風災的整個整個remedy整個所謂的急救款拿不起到八到九百萬這是六千多萬整個加起來針對我只是針對說教育教育部學校方面以前差不多八百萬到九百萬我願意協助你居間把地方政府請出來那教育部來看看那地方政府還有多少的災損金可以用那其他的部分"},{"start":6934.754,"end":6961.417,"text":"應急的部分我們會來處理。好,謝謝。再來其實我要問的跟方針比較嚴格講起來這個也不能講不嚴肅只是我必須請教說院長跟我們的那個政部長因為現在體育署未來要變成體育發展部、運動發展部現在在我們的教育部裡面但是我很好奇就是說"},{"start":6962.478,"end":6985.326,"text":"到底為什麼要去做這個運動發展部我們的目標到底是什麼因為很實際的我想全國喜歡運動的人都想問這個問題我們這個運動發展部所建立的原因是為了在國際賽事上拿金牌幫我們國人增加榮譽感認同感還是是針對說這個運動產業在臺灣已經有可能發展還是"},{"start":6990.588,"end":6990.708,"text":"議員你剛剛說的齁"},{"start":7013.837,"end":7037.773,"text":"都是沒有還是都是第一個我要強調他不是一個升格的問題他是一個全新的運動部他裡面最重要的三項精神第一個就是推展全民運動第二個是國際競技第三個是運動產業當然還有其他啦我說最重要的三項那這三項會變成三支柱子支撐全新的一個運動部"},{"start":7038.629,"end":7062.578,"text":"那這個就很尷尬了因為這三個老實講都很難做得到啊因為老實說如果你是要國際賽事的話你要在國際賽事拿名你的經費你要怎麼樣去依註如果說針對我其實有第一個要問因為我自己本身是基隆SBL的領隊那現在籃球的事情老得紛紛擾擾我想請問一下院長跟部長你們自己有從事運動嗎有打運動嗎"},{"start":7066.886,"end":7086.284,"text":"任何運動都可以去參與有沒有自己喜歡打的?像我是籃球迷我高中大學都是打校的隊請問你們是有這麼現在我現在昨天還在練球跟委員報告我大概平常現在因為這一個考量這一個年紀關係我現在打網球大概就是桌球桌球大概是"},{"start":7088.075,"end":7108.385,"text":"這就是我們現在尷尬的地方就是說我們現在講的很多運動有關這個賽事甚至想要把職業化產業化賽事那全部都是大型運動都不是one on one請問你知道有乒乓球的世界是有乒乓球的職業職業選手嗎?國內的?國內有很多好手對啊國內有沒有像職業青雙球的賽事?"},{"start":7114.282,"end":7115.963,"text":"那就是另外一個問題請問運動為什麼要提升全民運動"},{"start":7144.384,"end":7171.905,"text":"這是健康的問題嗎?那就糟糕了,因為運動的本質不是只為了健康啊。運動的本質是為了紀律性、團大精神跟其他的。這就是我說我們現在開始...我問你這是一個全新的運動部。院長,我們不是在辯論,我只是在講說因為我自己打籃球,而且我自己打籃球打得很深。所以說運動發展部這件事情出來的時候,大家看好的人"},{"start":7173.346,"end":7188.432,"text":"不容易,尤其是從事運動的人,因為在這個我們這個布出來之後,在這裡面他在演什麼角色,會變得非常重要。我們會全力來支持,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員。好,謝謝左委員長。下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"},{"start":7213.604,"end":7238.875,"text":"主席主席有請卓院長來請卓院長備詢會議委員好院長好想要請教院長一下你知道人民會有族群委員嗎?是你知道?是"},{"start":7240.933,"end":7269.938,"text":"好 所以你知道的話只要請教你一下 研民會每年編列2224萬7千元高額預算 僱用16個委員一人每年的薪水高達135萬請教一下研委會的族群委員服務項目是什麼 還有他們的學金率是什麼 我們院長知不知道"},{"start":7271.272,"end":7287.014,"text":"朱全偉他應該是代表各個不同的原住民族朋友,來這裡討論特別或是整體相關的跟原住民族朋友的權益上的問題,我想這個是一個長年以來的一個組織。"},{"start":7288.72,"end":7312.668,"text":"這個就是不知道啦所以政府用人就是應該不分黨派啦不知道說他們的血清你講的都是空放的所以特別是針對族群委員族群的平均比較重要不是黨派的問題族群委員裡面一年135萬的高薪擔任的職責標準是什麼"},{"start":7313.816,"end":7326.909,"text":"還有說還是只有政黨唯一的標準用人嗎?這個部分我們想要知道。我剛剛說過他應該是著重在族群的平均各個族群的照顧,絕對不是政黨的考量。"},{"start":7328.498,"end":7353.007,"text":"但是呢,我們的原委會的主委在10月9日內政委員會質詢的此後詢答回復我們本黨黃國昌委員,承認這份族群委員名單不是他提的。請問院長對此名單有無指示,有哪一些是民進黨拿來酬庸的對象?"},{"start":7354.6,"end":7365.609,"text":"原民會提來的名單當然要經過內部他們一個標準去審核甚至通過各個族群的推薦所以這個都是標準符合資格"},{"start":7366.59,"end":7387.595,"text":"中堂順過來之後,我會尊重原民會裡面的調整的名單出來,因為說真的,我一個一個也沒有辦法比原民會的主委或是其他原民會裡面更熟,我真的不能比他更熟。所以問你有沒有指示,還是猶豫的人,對,如果是不是族群委員,不是酬庸的工具,到底"},{"start":7388.155,"end":7409.362,"text":"是幾個委員是由誰提的還有他們的研究名對研究名有什麼貢獻所以請卓院長在一周內可以提供我書面嗎我可以請原民會跟委員說明給我書面回覆好吧我請原民會來回覆委員"},{"start":7410.68,"end":7426.793,"text":"再來再請教門院長,因為這個我也是覺得很疑惑,因為在協商又在就是赤河解放,所以我要請教一下為什麼立法院把總預算退回要求行政院"},{"start":7428.093,"end":7432.094,"text":"總預算重新編列嗎?"},{"start":7432.094,"end":7438.436,"text":"為什麼各部會不按照立法院三讀通過的法案編列預算?"},{"start":7438.436,"end":7447.758,"text":"各部會不願意編列還是說行政院院長你有指令各部會不能依法編列預算?"},{"start":7449.192,"end":7476.386,"text":"委員我們回憶一下上禮拜我們都吃過一頓午餐你很清楚我沒有聽到你的回應啊都是我的夢我的講我都很注意聽委員的話我們都受你感動我講的話你都沒有聽有你答應我我當然會聽但是針對這一塊是全國的人的注意針對新住民你對我們的照顧我們很感受到後續的發展我說那一天我們在那邊就是啟動一個很好的開始我也很欣慰看到聽到"},{"start":7477.907,"end":7497.606,"text":"大院最近可能展開草野協商,草野協商我也聽到,所以我才再問你一次,那一天我有問,但是我沒有回應。 那我希望很多的事情我們放在草野協商裡面去談。 是,好,所以我希望,因為我們聽到的是各部會,他說他們就是沒有編,所以我才問,再問一次。"},{"start":7498.767,"end":7523.169,"text":"所以希望卓院長和我們的團隊撥通,不要說就是卓院長說一套,他們做一套,這樣子的話,如果認為就是進法補助對這個就是浪費公帑的話,就不要花一千多萬去酬庸就是我們剛才的力猶猶的那個原住民的朋友。"},{"start":7525.07,"end":7541.141,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":7555.05,"end":7557.815,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":7569.396,"end":7593.651,"text":"我害怕最後有沒有可能因為沒有辦法達成兩院的共識就害我們的卓院長為了大家就是負責要下台這都是大家害的因為我們院長想要去做但是各個部會不願意編這樣的話就害了我們的卓院長我沒有不願意編的委員我有編4萬你聽到嗎那天我有想啊我沒有編4萬對不對"},{"start":7599.031,"end":7626.841,"text":"你沒有總預算回去沒有編,如果有編的話就不用再協商了。 我有編4萬阿,我都注意聽你的話你都沒有聽,我們對競馬補償有編4萬,本來3萬我們現在有編4萬。 如果是院長要編照我們退回的總預算,這樣子的話我們協商就會圓滿。我那天有講說大事化小事,小事化無事,大家圓滿。 協商就是我注意聽你的話,你要注意聽我的話。"},{"start":7627.261,"end":7631.143,"text":"我明明那天說我編了4萬可是外黨的黃委員說我一毛不編你應該去問他啊為什麼他的聽到話叫做一毛不編啊這顯然是一個錯誤的答覆不要避重就輕好不好"},{"start":7652.837,"end":7669.173,"text":"問我們的教育部在2020年的時候因為是教文所以我們先不討論那個所以網路霸凌通報顯示因為兩岸關係造成就是族群的對立"},{"start":7669.953,"end":7688.587,"text":"新住民子女在學校也受到歧視和霸凌的案件很多,尤其是我們的陸珮還有就是她的子女,因為受到很大的傷害,大家都要嫁來台灣了,大家都在罵她說因為兩岸的關係,很多原因就是"},{"start":7689.668,"end":7717.009,"text":"外乎就是刻板印象導致這樣子的霸凌但是我們的孩子都是我們心目中的寶貝不只是族群的歧視繼續發生還有影響到不是個人還有家庭更影響到社會的問題所以現在呢我們要想要討論一下研議一下如何讓我們的校園減少肢體的衝突還有語言的歧視"},{"start":7717.722,"end":7717.862,"text":"請部長答覆"},{"start":7738.657,"end":7765.532,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個校園霸凌的問題我想怎麼樣提供一個安全友善的校園環境確實是一直學校辦學要努力這一個努力的一個方向是的,但是霸凌一直在增加所以我們才要請教我們要怎麼處理我們現在不僅就是說學校也希望家庭跟社會一起來共同營造一個這樣的一個"},{"start":7766.613,"end":7766.913,"text":"主席"},{"start":7781.929,"end":7784.05,"text":"對,所以關於網路霸凌,我們每一個人就是從幼稚園就要接觸到3C產品"},{"start":7803.099,"end":7827.591,"text":"網路非常發達,但是學生普遍也是在用社群拖文,所以就造成網路也有語言霸凌,延伸到網路去,尤其是學生。 所以我們要如何教導學生使用正確的網路,還有如何辨識不實的招搖,危害學生,有的人就是因為他們的人身安全。"},{"start":7828.371,"end":7842.567,"text":"所以沒辦法遭到網路霸凌也有人去自殺這個部分也造成我們的學生身心靈的陰影。 行政院如果有政策的具體的方式解決"},{"start":7843.548,"end":7859.296,"text":"這個才是真的,不是只是做做凡,這是表面而已,真的沒大大。 關起輔導,然後有一些同理心,包括社會情緒的一些學習,能夠理解同學之間彼此的一些"},{"start":7859.856,"end":7863.099,"text":"有很多教育部長您說有很多但是呢就是宣傳不夠"},{"start":7887.478,"end":7890.119,"text":"因為我們的小孩都是我們媽媽心目中的寶貝不管是誰生的小孩希望我們的行政官員要有同理心"},{"start":7903.823,"end":7926.781,"text":"因為現在要生的孩子沒人沒借,所以要保護得要緊,所以呢我們希望我們行政院一定要重視霸凌這個議題,因為一直在掙扎,你宣傳不夠,你的預防不夠才會增加,所以讓我們一同來如何去保護我們這群寶貝,這群小孩好不好。"},{"start":7928.583,"end":7951.48,"text":"對還有就是因為也是延伸就是網路現在AI交易也是世界的氣勢對不對所以也是科技的進步的象徵所以我們也非常的支持我們就是交易就是要越來越發展越來比別的國家更好對不對但是呢"},{"start":7952.714,"end":7978.323,"text":"我們台灣的發展AI同時我們也需要注意AI帶來的風險因為我們現在的倫理教育道德教育在我們的學校裡面少於也少所以這個部分我們一定要讓我們小孩了解來去應用這個是我們很注重的所以教育部就是要積極來"},{"start":7980.144,"end":7980.465,"text":"總統委員報告"},{"start":8006.105,"end":8022.072,"text":"規範有沒有明確讓大家更了解。謝謝委員提醒不過確實委員所關心的也是我們現在正在做的一個方向跟委員報告我們在這一學期9月開學前對這個AI怎麼樣使用數位這一個能夠學習這一個學"},{"start":8024.153,"end":8026.214,"text":"因為推動AI是很好,但是沒有先行設想學生為了"},{"start":8045.76,"end":8047.822,"text":"所以希望因為根據聯合國教育"},{"start":8070.18,"end":8093.291,"text":"教文組織2021年也是在AI倫理的建議書明確指出AI危險存在於越來越多性別及種族的偏見,所以對隱私尊嚴和機構的組織帶來最大的危險,所以如何解決AI來帶來的危險,所以這個部分我們是"},{"start":8094.241,"end":8099.165,"text":"謝謝委員關心,也利用這個機會跟委員報告,我們今年9月上路的25個學校大學的AI課程聯盟有4個學層,每個學層5門課,其中有一門就是AI倫理。"},{"start":8118.021,"end":8130.351,"text":"很好,所以呢這個方面要多推動,所以我們推動教育之前應該拒絕偏見歧視,防止犯罪,還有提高學習動機等於優先的考量。"},{"start":8152.887,"end":8160.392,"text":"好,謝謝麥委員下一位我們請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":8168.098,"end":8172.8,"text":"副院長我想請卓院長請卓院長備詢卓院長你辛苦啦從早上到現在不會張委員好謝謝不斷電喔那我想要就是請教卓院長你瞭不瞭解108課綱108課綱到現在已經實施5年了假設"},{"start":8196.431,"end":8213.95,"text":"您了解的話,100分你覺得目前大概是可以得到幾分呢?我不方便在這邊直接打分數,但是我覺得教育是一直要翻新創新的,我們應該融入更多的元素在裡面,那已經執行下來,所以我們往後會繼續討論新的發展課綱。"},{"start":8216.69,"end":8235.98,"text":"是,所以本席想要給院長一些建議,目前有一個數據,我不曉得院長知不知道,108課綱實施到現在5年多,文理補習班增加了966家,院長你知道現在全國的補習班大概有幾家嗎?應該"},{"start":8240.714,"end":8249.037,"text":"一萬七千五百五十二家那你知道全台灣現在超商有幾家嗎?那更多啊"},{"start":8251.593,"end":8252.793,"text":"是不是要請部長一起來回答這個問題?"},{"start":8279.721,"end":8301.589,"text":"但是我們改變的教育制度就是大家望子成龍望女成鳳這是父母共同的心願但希望有多元的發展讓他隨他的興趣性向能夠去做多元的發展我相信在座有孩子的可能也有當阿公阿嬤的大家都很關心孩子的教育所以呢這就很不能理解說現在你看這個數據啊"},{"start":8303.53,"end":8328.18,"text":"外語補習班本來是在108課綱上路之前到現在已經少了500家然後記憶類的補習班少了200家唯獨文理類的補習班增加了到966家部長您知道原因嗎我想現在確實每一個小孩子都是每一個家庭的寶"},{"start":8329.548,"end":8332.311,"text":"但是您身為教育部長您不覺得"},{"start":8346.104,"end":8350.625,"text":"我想108課綱它的整個大方向基本上到現在也是跟WEF世界經濟論壇所要培養的未來產業跟未來的人才想像的圖像"},{"start":8374.17,"end":8380.754,"text":"是相某合的。那學校在這個部分,確實跟委員報告,跟委員報告說,像譬如說一齡報告課堪,我們對高中子的學生希望他有更多的這個選修的課,那我們的老師在過去的一個專業,這個本席也支持,就是說希望學生的學習的廣度跟深度,"},{"start":8403.228,"end":8430.355,"text":"但是您希望的增加它的廣度增加它的深度可是帶來的問題就是家長對於學生學習的內容有不確定所以它造成了家長恐慌會不會覺得說我如果不送去補習班的話我會不會沒有學到我想我們現在整個團隊在做的這個努力就像剛才我跟委員報告已經有260起所學校跟大學合作大學透過這個"},{"start":8431.355,"end":8435.399,"text":"本席都不反對,我都覺得說應該是在朝好的方向在前進,但是本席現在的意思是在提醒你。"},{"start":8452.877,"end":8472.753,"text":"再提醒你說有問題的地方你一定要去重視否則他目前文藝補習班增加這麼多跟我們的教育理念是背道而馳的啊而且我現在不是在跟你講高中我在跟你講的還有一個奇怪的數據招收國小生的補習班在這966家裡面的61.88%"},{"start":8477.782,"end":8483.528,"text":"理論上升國中是不需要考試的, 為什麼反而是國小補習班最多呢?"},{"start":8485.452,"end":8485.952,"text":"我現在在跟你講的是文理補習班"},{"start":8510.492,"end":8512.653,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這我想會後我來更進一步來瞭解"},{"start":8536.223,"end":8554.482,"text":"那當然還有下個禮拜教育文化委員會要辦一個3C產品的公聽會那我認為呢教育部作為主管機關不能沒有立場要想一個對多數學生好又讓老師可以好好管教的辦法這一點本席也在這裡提"},{"start":8555.062,"end":8582.932,"text":"謝謝委員提醒事實上對3C的使用我們已經看到很多國際的一些研究的一些報告他會對青少年產生一些比較多的壓力跟情緒上的所以本席希望就是在公聽會之前是不是能夠有相對應的一些資料可以讓我們參考然後可以來研究然後發表意見那接下來本席要再問的一個問題其實是教育"},{"start":8583.672,"end":8595.308,"text":"更根本的問題因為你要有好的教育你必須要有好的老師院長我跟您報告今年最大的問題是什麼教師荒"},{"start":8596.618,"end":8617.448,"text":"沒有老師啊 大家都不願意去當老師這是我們國家要面臨的重大國家發展的問題沒有人願意去當老師 那我們還怎麼談教育呢我們現在談的什麼教育升級要友善 然後要讓小朋友能夠有更好的教育環境 這變成是一個空談啊"},{"start":8618.53,"end":8638.518,"text":"要跟委員報告這一個裡邊也要拜託委員因為施肢因為我們現在的培育的施肢量部長我可不可以也請院長針對這個教師荒可以提出您的看法跟建議嗎?您有察覺到有這個問題嗎?這個一個連鎖性的問題就是我們在少子化之後學生減少了"},{"start":8645.359,"end":8657.061,"text":"所以對教師的需求在各個地方呈現出來不同的需求狀態讓教師想要從事這個行業的人他變成他沒有辦法在一個穩定的未來的工作上面他去做一些"},{"start":8657.574,"end":8664.938,"text":"其實部長你真應該感謝院長給你這麼大的信任其實我想這個問題是剛剛院長講的真的是一個連鎖性的問題這個問題非常多面向第一就是剛剛我們講的108課綱他備課多資源少"},{"start":8687.168,"end":8713.875,"text":"所以很多人不願意當老師。 第二是加幾滴又耗費心力,沒有這個優厚的條件。 然後第三是行政工作太繁雜了,偏離了教學專業。 第四,性平生疏平傳,老師是非常疲於奔命的。 老師,校長告訴我,他說現在老師不是感覺不像在教書都在辦案。"},{"start":8715.302,"end":8742.778,"text":"一下子要辦性平案一下子要辦霸凌案等等所以第五就是我講的校園職場霸凌職場不友善等其實教師歡跟我們多繳少領延後退的年改制度也非常的有關係包括說無處適從的教育政策跟不夠優厚的調薪政策若不改變明年我們一樣招不夠老師部長你有沒有一個具體的辦法"},{"start":8744.687,"end":8764.736,"text":"公務員報告我想怎麼樣提供老師一個更好的一個教學環境一直都是我們在努力的包含行政的減量事實上教育部這些年來也做了相當多的努力問題是行政減量就沒有看到成效啊教育部在減少行政減量的時候也沒有獲得充分的支持啊心力消遂所以反而地方也在增量"},{"start":8773.179,"end":8778.522,"text":"導師、特教師應該提高佳績,增加投入的人力,您同意嗎?"},{"start":8791.767,"end":8812.394,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝院長。所以呢,我本席在這裡,其實呢,我當然很重視學生的受教權,但是我們同時也要重視老師的榮譽感。就是說,他現在當老師已經不像以前那麼受尊重,然後這個待遇又這麼差,然後工作又這麼的繁雜。"},{"start":8813.294,"end":8813.414,"text":"好的,謝謝"},{"start":8826.578,"end":8827.138,"text":"市長我們在整個制度上30年的一個"},{"start":8845.134,"end":8845.814,"text":"請委員相信我,我相信。"},{"start":8866.946,"end":8867.467,"text":"老舊校舍改善問題"},{"start":8882.108,"end":8903.573,"text":"就是,院長看一下,這是我們雲林縣非常多的50年以上的老舊校舍都已經鋼筋外漏、樑柱嚴重歸裂、瓦舍雨遮都隨時有可能掉落的危險。那院長你覺得這種情況是不是有影響到學生上學的安全呢?當然是有。"},{"start":8904.233,"end":8931.147,"text":"是吧,真的非常危急,你可以想像說假設是在上學的時候,在這樣子的一個建築物裡面上學,發生地震怎麼辦?我們不允許這樣的危險發生在校園。是,所以本席要特別拜託院長,現在目前雲林縣至少還有45棟這樣子的教學樓,那扣除不常使用的,"},{"start":8932.145,"end":8960.552,"text":"還有26棟這26棟呢假設都要拆除重建的話至少要花3、40億但是呢雲林縣今年只有分到1.4億1.4億代表說不要說45棟都要改26棟最常使用目前平凡在使用的要改的話要整個修下完成要30年"},{"start":8962.571,"end":8965.998,"text":"院長您覺得會不會太久了?從98年到111年我們編了1300多億已經加強補強了一六千多棟"},{"start":8974.093,"end":9000.654,"text":"那我們覺得這個還是不夠所以在114年到118年也持續編了350億會在這幾個年度當中來實施我們希望能夠有效但是我還是認為要全面這樣整修350億還是不夠我還想透過其他的方式是藉用民間的力量來來完成看能不能這一點要特別拜託院長也邀請院長到我們雲林來看一下真的非常的危險老舊少社"},{"start":9001.394,"end":9025.079,"text":"包括說我們調閱了氣象局的這個地震顯示圖, 預估30年內會發生6級以上的大地震區域, 除了花東以外,最有可能的就是雲嘉區。 所以地震如果假設在這個老舊校舍的這個區域密集發生的話, 真的非常的危險,所以呢每年你們今年只編了37.5億要改善這個"},{"start":9027.759,"end":9052.254,"text":"老舊校舍絕對是不足的,而且雲林縣只有分配到1.4億,真的是太少了,是不是請院長可以加碼,去補足這個加快這個改善的速度。我們明年度開始的350億就是希望地方能夠提出最強烈的需求,我們按照它的危險程度能夠依序來進行,來保障師生學童的安全。"},{"start":9052.914,"end":9057.818,"text":"我們最近會通過行政院的院會提出一個完整的草案來送交大院來審理。"},{"start":9075.828,"end":9076.008,"text":"好,謝謝謝謝張委員,謝謝卓院長"},{"start":9102.501,"end":9117.982,"text":"報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽喜的是臺東縣民眾服務社的好朋友我們在此表達歡迎,謝謝下一位我們請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":9149.758,"end":9176.715,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請行政院卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢各位好,您辛苦了您比較辛苦,大家都辛苦我習慣我們副院長、主席也很辛苦,大家都非常辛苦科技不分藍綠,所有的人也都非常關注科技的發展今年9月的時候"},{"start":9177.793,"end":9197.106,"text":"抱歉,行政院院長召開經濟發展委員會,您提出了主權AI,因為不分藍綠白,所以我把您放在第一頁。那我是深感認同,本席深感認同,但想請教一下院長,您認為要實現主權AI政府的首要任務到底是什麼?"},{"start":9198.68,"end":9222.027,"text":"我不僅提出主權AI我還提出了民主AI就是AI不能侵害人權那主權AI大家說是要台灣的元素我們在地的文化所以政府一定要想辦法先建立一個相當大的資料庫讓所有的台灣元素進到裡面來共同學習之後才能反映台灣真正的國情跟民情所以要發展主權AI不外乎就是資料"},{"start":9222.887,"end":9237.363,"text":"那我們的政府在112年4月正式啟動臺德可信任深層式AI對話語情的計畫。 想請問一下院長您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料政府部門應該帶頭向臺德計畫開放資料作為訓練文本使用?"},{"start":9244.349,"end":9245.35,"text":"您是否認同?"},{"start":9245.35,"end":9246.39,"text":"您剛剛已經提了啊!"},{"start":9246.39,"end":9259.378,"text":"您的答案是資料啊!沒有台灣元素的資料怎麼會有台灣的主權AI?是不是願意開放資料帶頭給他們嘛?"},{"start":9259.378,"end":9269.624,"text":"你沒有資料訓練怎麼會有本土元素呢?剛開始開始我們會採取比較保守一點的,讓他建立一個基本的能力之後,再有對更多的資訊進來,在現在還在這個過程。"},{"start":9271.84,"end":9301.324,"text":"主學AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了我直接問院長您知道目前各部會加總起來向台德開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎?我們在政府開放資料的部分只要不牽涉到人權的議題很好嘛都盡量開放嘛帶頭開放嘛我們直接幫你查了台德官網目前光是列席的六個部會裡面就有兩個是沒有列在上面向台德開放資料的"},{"start":9301.704,"end":9314.355,"text":"分別是和能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院當然故宮最近有跟wikipedia有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分但是為什麼沒有列在台德資料合作單位上面呢?"},{"start":9314.355,"end":9317.538,"text":"台德作為請全國之力開發的這個模型"},{"start":9318.098,"end":9345.3,"text":"院長一聲下令要做主權AI,這個資料沒有提供完整的話,我們怎麼有辦法主權AI呢?至少應該要由政府部會帶頭,全面向台德,還有很多其他像民間,像台灣LLM也做得很好,去提供這些資料,本地的資料,我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。院長,為什麼我們這麼急切?同樣是亞洲國家,面臨語料相對稀少的困境,大家都是一樣的。"},{"start":9346.201,"end":9369.329,"text":"日本是請全國智力要開發的這個模型,參數量要達到1000億。 這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的。 結果我們台德開發今年4月市租的是80億, 頂多還沒有辦法開放的是130億。 我們到底要怎麼去跟人家一起來競賽,一起來比賽,一起來競爭呢?"},{"start":9369.329,"end":9370.41,"text":"政府曾經多次強調,"},{"start":9372.09,"end":9389.676,"text":"臺德的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權。 但是呢,其實臺德要取得這些語料不外乎兩種方式。 第一種,我們訂定一個參數的目標,依照所需的資料量逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料。"},{"start":9390.256,"end":9418.149,"text":"二、參考鄰國日本修正著作權法,讓大於人模型可以大以訓練。 請教院長,臺德或者我們臺灣在開發主權AI資料取得上,到底要採用哪一種方式?報告委員,那個參數的數目不是跟資料量、訓練資料有關,而是跟模型的複雜度有關。那至於這個資料的...你的資料量如果不夠的話,你模型複雜得起來嗎?"},{"start":9420.215,"end":9444.901,"text":"模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配啦所以到底有沒有關嘛你不要在這裡那個沒有關真的是沒有關所以我就算很少的資料我也可以讓參數很複雜你確定喔要確喔當然你複雜的模型需要用更多的資料沒關係我們到底要採用哪一種方式啊我這題其實是要問院長啦院長我們到底是要編預算還是要開放還是要修法"},{"start":9445.643,"end":9465.404,"text":"我還是跟委員承認首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足我們在硬體的製造上面是可以領先的但是軟體的不足所以我們在急步的追趕那急步追趕總要有一個開始那現在是正在開始的過程當中我們先建立一個基本的東西出來的時候我認為第一個要先入門"},{"start":9466.795,"end":9467.456,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":9488.951,"end":9506.283,"text":"大大的不足,我承認大大的不足,但是我說這是一個起步。報告委員,我們在台者的應用推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部分,希望委員能夠支持。那是有編資料購買的預算嗎?有,如果需要授權的部分,我們會編的多少?"},{"start":9509.131,"end":9530.689,"text":"總數我告訴你了主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦齁這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算我們來看一下齁接下來我相信都就說起步嘛齁我覺得我們說不要講說台灣世界中心的時候就喊很大聲啦然後呢我們要編預算要做事的時候就說我們還在起步齁但是行政院還是有做事我們也是與鼓勵啦你們有說要提出什麼"},{"start":9531.309,"end":9542.438,"text":"促進資料創新利用發展條例請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權修改一些相關的法令跟AI訓練使用有沒有"},{"start":9545.476,"end":9564.153,"text":"我們現在正在進行當中,我們會朝這個方向努力。院長,我們上一次總質詢,步步有AI是您喊出來的,結果我們今天發現步步正AI,要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲,結果要規劃計畫的時候每個人都說這是誰的問題,誰的問題,我們等一下來看,如果我們沒有完整的資料,"},{"start":9564.753,"end":9569.278,"text":"我們的語言模型就是營養不良,這會牽涉到什麼?"},{"start":9569.278,"end":9586.296,"text":"韌性的問題,這是文化的韌性。我希望部長、院長,我希望院長能夠給一個期限,明確的期限,何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題。給一個期限,你說要追趕我們總要有期限嘛,追趕100年也是不追趕啊。"},{"start":9587.336,"end":9615.153,"text":"跟委員說明我覺得一步來我們從首長、副首長到30機關的首長我們都訓練了他們進入到AI情境的這個過程他們要訓練我同意但是院長的方針要出來我能不能給一個6個月的期限在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案一定會有進展但進展的程度是不是成如委員所需要的所期待的我們來努力"},{"start":9620.057,"end":9631.966,"text":"資金,這已經不是文化任性的問題,是國家任性、經濟任性的問題。 請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案預算規模是多少嗎?"},{"start":9633.649,"end":9659.141,"text":"我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?"},{"start":9659.801,"end":9666.393,"text":"有人預估,2027年要到千億美元,2025、26可能要到百億美元。 日本是我們的12倍,你覺得夠不夠啊?"},{"start":9667.659,"end":9693.541,"text":"我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列當中如果有任何的突發或者需求國家財政允許我們當然有計畫是可以再調整但目前我們只能做這樣的編列現在確實AI突發的狀況很多所以我們現在總預算還有修改的機會希望院長可以好好修改一下那個主委您稍等今天我要跟院長好好交流一下"},{"start":9694.261,"end":9721.476,"text":"您的部會提出來的相關的數字您自己要非常的清楚我們要有一個算力的預估規劃我們才能夠抓出預算結果呢我們光看算力先從100PF到116PF然後說2027年要280要480我告訴院長啊2027年如果是480PF連2024年的日本都趕不上你還說要什麼亞洲前三再來我們看資金啦齁"},{"start":9722.176,"end":9746.179,"text":"我們的資金預算呢一遍再遍我老實講啊這一本36頁1331的預算主委我直接在質詢的時候他跟我說沒有看過然後呢他還說行政院的這個這個方案僅供參考指示方案我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎如果光喊出10年3105號什麼都不用做"},{"start":9746.619,"end":9763.071,"text":"報告委員我不是說僅供參考,因為方案之後要計劃,我們要細究的時候你說只是方案啊?不是不是,我們編預算一定有計劃。根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們,你開出來我們就要付錢嗎?"},{"start":9764.622,"end":9780.1,"text":"我們預算一定要跟隨計畫執行的方案。你到現在還是在講空話,你知道這是空的嗎?你是不是又要再追加?你追加可以啊,講清楚啊。方案是政府的願景,我們未來推動的方向。你已經寫出來是多少錢,就是多少錢。"},{"start":9781.101,"end":9798.738,"text":"我跟院長交流一下我理解您多次公開表示對總預算被退回表示遺憾但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案"},{"start":9799.891,"end":9810.753,"text":"也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權。光是國科會主委對外談論114年精創計畫。結果呢?我們這個剛剛都看過了。他先講了200億。再來呢?上週國科會的業務報告寫183億。今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億。結果呢?我們要資料出來是多少?90.49億。是國科會的。我先講。你讓我講清楚。"},{"start":9828.328,"end":9833.013,"text":"我們覺得非常離譜,因為為什麼你們會有各種數字不同?"},{"start":9833.612,"end":9837.253,"text":"我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的他名稱可能會調整但是都在我們的方案裡面"},{"start":9860.733,"end":9882.904,"text":"10票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事預算法第39條分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少你都要列得很清楚啊我們計畫書裡面都會有列那今年的預算155億明年是183億因為我目標200億但是在行政院審查"},{"start":9883.544,"end":9898.795,"text":"你現在要變為183啊!你跟他說155啊!那是今年的預算啊!明年的變成是183啊!所以183就是183,又不會再變了?不會變了!你們裡面都找出來,等一下,那院長我要告訴你,這183億裡面是7個部會的預算。"},{"start":9901.617,"end":9927.543,"text":"為什麼是國科會的組委來講183呢?為什麼是國科會的組委來講200呢?那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算換進去啊?因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。好嘛,你看嘛,你到底是國科會還是國發會,你們到底誰講什麼啊?國科會編列科技預算。國科會編列科技預算,那成效是不是應該要國科會來承擔啊?各部會一起承擔。"},{"start":9932.548,"end":9955.647,"text":"院長你聽到了齁,科技的預算國科會來編列,然後責任其他部會來承擔,那是你讓我部會首長嗎?報告委員,這個國科會他本身也是吳主委,他本身也是政委,他就有統合各部會的職責跟責任,所以這個他講的也沒錯,各部會在執行之後還是要政委來做一個統合。"},{"start":9956.187,"end":9973.384,"text":"所以院長您的角色很重要我要先講從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後有國科會、數發部、經濟部、國發會結果呢我們光要講結果的時候4年又要推動20萬名算力要提升全球前三結果呢這個"},{"start":9975.266,"end":9994.435,"text":"大家互相推諉講到AI人人都要分一點預算我們剛看到7個部會結果呢講到KPI的時候每個人都說是別人的責任今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席一個給所有全國人民一個明確的答案究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的主導兼主責啊你預算是預算"},{"start":10001.086,"end":10008.68,"text":"你剛剛講的也有經濟部也有其他的部會都有但是整個科技預算科技預算的整合就是在國科會"},{"start":10013.348,"end":10033.863,"text":"所以我們會協助所有的部會那你覺得這樣子分錢的是一個結果大家都落跑這是對的預算分配的方法嗎?行政院的組織就是國防部主委本身是政務委員政務委員就要負責我丟一題給院長啦我丟一題給院長你就會發現一個很微妙的地方我們問了所有的部會4年20萬AA人才"},{"start":10034.824,"end":10062.99,"text":"到底明年要培育出多少AI人才?每一個部會,你剛剛講了嘛,四個部會要共同補助KPI嘛,要有結果嘛。結果明年要多少人?他有國外的進來的學生的人才,有國內培養,這整個做起來是12萬、12萬跟8萬。每一個人都在逃啦齁,不要步步有AI結果是步步蹭AI啦。要院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了,要發揮領導統一,真正做出主權AI。我當然負最後的責任。"},{"start":10066.487,"end":10086.721,"text":"謝謝葛委員、謝謝卓院長。 抱怨會現在在議場二樓旁聽喜的是南投市光榮里社區發展協會的好朋友,謝謝你們。我們在此歡迎你們到立法院參訪。下一位我們請范雲委員質詢。"},{"start":10099.948,"end":10100.971,"text":"謝謝副院長,有請院長"},{"start":10113.106,"end":10113.186,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":10133.163,"end":10158.655,"text":"我們有委員問到教師荒我很謝謝他引用我記者會所講的五個原因我當時辦這個記者會其實第一個是跟教育部對話因為教育部在去年發生的時候說是過渡期說是代理教師荒可是其實我的研究發現不是代理教師荒我們再看下一頁"},{"start":10159.355,"end":10178.584,"text":"因為如果是代理教師荒的話不會去年也缺人結果今年還是缺因為當時我們潘部長講說是過渡期因為我們為代理教師已經做了相當多的政策改變那我們部長應該了解因為當時也是我非常關注代理教師的同工不同酬的問題"},{"start":10179.404,"end":10179.584,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":10193.659,"end":10213.91,"text":"我拜託教育部幫我去跟縣市政府要來的資料,我們以臺北市為例,這個左邊是他們去年正式教師,你看到我圈起來的79,是他其實缺400多人,增到300多人,還缺79人正式教師。"},{"start":10215.111,"end":10242.734,"text":"右邊是今年缺額更大他希望招400多人只招到200多人缺了183個正式教師那是因為正式教師缺不到人所以才會再去徵代理教師所以代理教師這個制度原本是因為有人懷孕或者照顧假的一個制度可是現在居然變成是在補正式教師資據說不只一年的不足"},{"start":10243.314,"end":10249.718,"text":"那我跟國教署請教過幾次我發現國教署跟教育部沒有真的瞭解這個問題下一張是要給"},{"start":10252.752,"end":10279.225,"text":"院長看的這個是我辦公室自己找出來的數字從你們的教育部的統計年報因為你沒有這個統計我們自己去算出來的我們看一一我們看這個連續幾年院長你可以看一下左邊這個圖的藍色的是有教師資格的就是考上有教師證的下面那個黃色是他過去三年內有來參與爭試的"},{"start":10281.966,"end":10301.001,"text":"因為你有證照就好像護士一樣護理師有證照不代表他會來應徵嘛那黃色的是來應徵的你看到藍色其實逐年是上升的有越來越多人有這個教師證考上這個資格可是下面黃色你看他越來越少人在三年內來參與這個教師的徵事"},{"start":10305.684,"end":10321.16,"text":"所以我們在看右邊這個圖我來算統計那教育部一直覺得說其實有教師資格的人很多我們一直在培訓可是你會發現從原本有4成的人3年內他會來爭取這個工作去應徵"},{"start":10322.341,"end":10350.155,"text":"可是現在只剩下幾乎三分之一從4乘2掉到34%就是現在教育部居然沒有最新的資料只有到111年我的統計願意考教師的人只剩下三分之一有66%的他有失陪取得資格可是卻連去應聘都不願意這是我們現在遇到的最大的危機下一頁"},{"start":10351.65,"end":10376.817,"text":"那呃那我也要跟院長報告這不是只是臺灣的問題哦那我看到陸續看到這些新聞那我今年暑假去教育最高最厲害的愛沙尼亞跟芬蘭哦披薩都是數一數二的哦他們也發生教師罷工哦教師荒的問題哦我們看一下從法國意大利日本哦三成以上的教師哦被認為是過勞死線那你看到美國"},{"start":10377.737,"end":10395.169,"text":"英國居然政府還主張用居家工作彈性工時 吸引大家投入教師美國鬧教師荒 還有提到說要週休三日 是不是能夠讓有志之士願意投入 大家都知道教師非常重要"},{"start":10395.489,"end":10413.61,"text":"那你可以看到全球我不知道原因也許是3C產品年輕世代越來越難教那也許是我們對教師的要求越來越多所以臺灣不是唯一面對這個的處境可是我們跟別的國家比我們現在有沒有找到解方真正找到問題"},{"start":10414.511,"end":10434.576,"text":"我想看下一頁那臺灣的部分那如果一直認知是代理教師荒那就是教育部沒有看到那我們看到就是一些表面上的媒體的分析都還常是錯誤的那大家至少看到是年輕世代他們不願意投入這個行業那往下看下一頁"},{"start":10435.982,"end":10464.649,"text":"這個就是剛剛有委員引用到的我這個五個分析那我結合幾大教師會跟教師公會在今年教師節那針對教師荒提出五個原因那今天我只跟院長討論前三個我提出的五個原因剛剛有委員他有用我這個講法第一個是108課綱給的全新備課資源少我認為108課綱方向是對的我們看到民主國家的方向是這樣"},{"start":10465.209,"end":10482.029,"text":"可是呢108課綱對師資的要求跟能力是更高的那我們給的備課資源少第二個還是回到對老師來講各項加擠過低不符合他耗費心理他多開一門課其實他基本上沒有得到更好的待遇"},{"start":10482.589,"end":10509.46,"text":"第三個是行政繁重偏離教學專業。 行政繁重有非常多的原因包含我後面幾個就是性平然後霸凌那教師疲累那還有校園職場不管是校長霸凌就主管霸凌甚至有老師認為家長都在霸凌那是一個很不友善的職場那這我今天就針對前三項想跟院長討論那也要跟院長報告"},{"start":10510.64,"end":10531.488,"text":"教育部其實有在努力解決這個問題,那教育部的解方是什麼?第一個,下一個,下一頁。教育部針對行政繁重,目前的解方是針對兼任的行政教師提高加緊。可是我要覺得說,其實這是不足的。我待會兒會提到,我認為是人力。"},{"start":10532.028,"end":10532.108,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":10552.831,"end":10569.102,"text":"那針對108課綱教育部也一直在改善那目前教育部的解方是增加教師研習時數補助終點費那這個解方呢有沒有用我請院長看下一張我自己做的數字下一張"},{"start":10569.722,"end":10589.968,"text":"我們看一下教育部說要補助終點費 院長你看上面那條線是基本工資基本工資這是19年來的資料 66元一小時漲到190塊是不是漲了超過三倍 那我們民進黨政府裡面漲特別多對不對可是我們如果把教師終點費19年來看從260塊漲到336元 欸只漲了29%欸"},{"start":10599.051,"end":10616.545,"text":"那要跟院長報告,你說教師中年費本來就比去便利商店打工高嘛,不能這樣想,因為備課的時數沒有算進去,對不對?他教一門課,尤其是108課綱這種新課,背後不是只是教書那一小時欸,"},{"start":10617.686,"end":10642.511,"text":"所以對教師來講我會講這種加級長的方式事實上不符合耗費心理如果你跟第一線老師討論他就覺得那我教原來的那些就好了我為什麼要投入所以其實就目前教育部的解方我認為也並沒有真的能夠解決教師荒的問題尤其是對年輕世代那我們再看下一頁"},{"start":10643.612,"end":10671.63,"text":"院長這是我非常認同的院長應該看得出來你知不知道這張是哪裡來的院長曉不曉得6到18歲多元均優教育環境成就每個兒少沒關係那個院長可能看的資料量太多了這是我們賴清德總統的政見教育方面的那我就不一項一項列入了我要跟院長報告我非常認同賴總統的教育政見"},{"start":10672.35,"end":10691.597,"text":"只是它裡面少了一個東西,它每個政見都要教師做更多,包含歧視性平那些我都也很認同,可是針對如何達到這個多元均優的教育環境,以我當大學老師超過10年,師資是最核心的軟實力。"},{"start":10693.318,"end":10721.124,"text":"如果教師荒,我們再好的政見沒有優質的老師投入。 年輕世代甚至有人寧願去當警消,離開教職,真的有這樣的例子。 因為他下班就是下班了,教師下班,家長可能還會打電話給他。 所以我想下一頁我要講的是好的教育,我們賴總統的政見很好,可是需要教師投入更多。"},{"start":10721.664,"end":10747.37,"text":"每個都教師要投入更多可是我們卻沒有給教師實質更多的支持那我覺得這是目前很大的一個危機那再看下一頁所以我今天的這塊板子坐在這裡其實是要幫我們教育部跟教師向院長請命我覺得需要人事行政總處跟主計總處共同來"},{"start":10749.89,"end":10774.776,"text":"提供資源為什麼需要提供資源以下是我的解方我不知道下一頁我不知道部長是不是認同我覺得你們現在那個解方還是不夠以我看到這個問題的本質那你們的統計分析也還沒有找出那當然這是可以討論的這我提出來的解方是不是最好的解方那但是我想你們目前對外的回應都還沒有真的了解問題"},{"start":10776.36,"end":10800.802,"text":"第一個,我認為不能只給錢啊,你行政加擠給更多錢可是因為工作量真的太大了,就是說原本的人在分擔這麼多的工作,我覺得行政應該要專職化,就是人事行政總署、主計總署應該要給教育體系更多的人力,要增設行政專職人力,讓老師專心做老師。"},{"start":10803.344,"end":10829.199,"text":"那第二個我認為108課綱那現在的方式可能會緩不濟急那剛剛其實有委員談到非常多人為什麼小學就去補習我的理解是因為我們有些城市私立中學被認為比較好他其實是為了要考私中那是擔心108課綱在公立學校的開出的課不夠多那這是我初步的觀察"},{"start":10829.659,"end":10850.775,"text":"那我認為一個比較快速的解決方式當然我們師資這邊培育可以加強就是108課綱其實我們可以去增聘專業的師資不管是社區大學的講師或者各方面有各種專才的也許會是一個要求老師開課開更多的課我覺得會是一個那這也是需要錢"},{"start":10851.636,"end":10870.969,"text":"第三個我想目前的教師的終點費調升方案跟教師的薪資真的不符合他們的據說付出我剛已經拿基本工資因為如果去超商下班就下班那可以漲這麼多那為什麼當老師只有漲19年房29%"},{"start":10873.951,"end":10897.957,"text":"那這三個解方真的不是教育部可以單獨完成的,都需要院長支持,人事行政總署跟主計總署一起來。那院長是不是可以承諾說,協助人跟錢呢,幫助教育部真正解決這個教師荒的問題,那讓我們賴總統很好的教育政見真的可以好好的落實呢?"},{"start":10898.357,"end":10898.537,"text":"主席"},{"start":10912.213,"end":10938.888,"text":"好謝謝委員在臺灣的社會教師應該本來是一個穩定受尊重而且有成就感的工作但是經過這樣的變化之後他變成一個行政外務壓力大而且不友善的職場環境甚至於呢他因為學習方式的改變也改變了師生之間的關係這個是現實社會那教育的預算雖然不是憲法的明文規定但是我們編列在百分之"},{"start":10940.069,"end":10956.49,"text":"反正23這個數字是一直長年在達到這個目標的,所以它是非常龐大的,而且我也知道在所有教育預算當中有很大的比例是在人事的預算方面,但就儘管如此,我們對於這些剛剛委員所提出的"},{"start":10957.731,"end":10974.019,"text":"幾個不合理﹑該增加人的﹑或者是就增加福利的部分,我們還是願意很誠懇地去檢討,在現有的機制底下去做一個合理性的調整,那我會請教育部來進一步往這個方向想,來提出一個說明跟報告。"},{"start":10975.362,"end":11001.658,"text":"那還是請院長也考慮人力的部分也要增加了因為行政專職化就目前學校裡面的行政工作那讓教師可以專心教書我會覺得是根本解決的部分要不然你原本的勞務這麼的多我們剛講到不管是霸凌、性平各方面還有我們的普特融合那其實增加了非常多的行政工作量那院長還是希望您可以考慮好嗎"},{"start":11002.458,"end":11025.75,"text":"好,我們請教育部趕快往這個方向來做一個思考,來跟委員再請教。好,那最後關於3C的部分也是我要辦的一個公聽會,那到時候我想這也是數位時代的一個共同的議題,那我們也希望教育部一起來。好,謝謝。謝謝范委員,謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝依鳳委員質詢。"},{"start":11040.314,"end":11041.981,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請卓院長。請卓院長備詢"},{"start":11054.42,"end":11071.188,"text":"委員長早安我看到那個前天那個我們經濟部長說他說是不是如果如果那個兩年以後臺電還是虧損他就要下臺是不是這是他"},{"start":11072.256,"end":11097.089,"text":"之前就說過的他認為兩年之後照他的方向可以讓台電調整他的財務健全我也有一些看法啦說不定我的方法比他還快那請委員指教我們很樂意聽我想要問一下就是你們今年追加的台電1000億的預算是跟過去一樣是邊列在台電的就是為了健全台電的財務結構邊在資本還是邊在營業收入"},{"start":11102.54,"end":11102.56,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":11123.749,"end":11123.929,"text":"臨時提案委員："},{"start":11139.306,"end":11139.906,"text":"今年我們還有一項就是他的這個"},{"start":11157.412,"end":11157.572,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":11175.947,"end":11176.147,"text":"我跟院長說"},{"start":11197.949,"end":11210.864,"text":"補債資本跟補債營業收入是不一樣的,這是台電的損益表,1到8月最新的,我昨天晚上才抓下來的,它的稅前盈餘,稅前虧損現在是400億,"},{"start":11214.131,"end":11227.906,"text":"現在是400億的情況下如果我們今年度行政院追加的台電的1000億的預算是補在營業收入的話那現在稅錢馬上就會由虧轉營變成600億"},{"start":11233.251,"end":11254.865,"text":"你稅前盈餘就會有600億這600億在到就是今年度的會計年度結束以後它就會變成稅後盈餘稅後盈餘就可以打消我們資產負債表裡面現在目前台電4,219億的虧損是不是"},{"start":11259.693,"end":11279.883,"text":"如果台電是用這樣的財務的計算方式來看,我們將來在提出追加預算的說明當中,他應該進一步說明將來的用途。 是不是這樣子?如果是這樣子,他可以立即的打消他4,219億的累積虧收。 所以我們說今年的追加預算,一方面是"},{"start":11281.108,"end":11282.109,"text":"明天即將第二次調整我們的工業用電"},{"start":11301.87,"end":11323.686,"text":"總共的調幅是12%左右那今年4月到現在調整電價已經讓臺電增加1000億的稅前盈餘了那第二次的調漲電價會不會增加更多然後如果目前我們現在是追加1000億嘛"},{"start":11325.888,"end":11349.218,"text":"如果你是補債收入的話那我們馬上就可以打消它的累計虧損再加上明天開始的調漲電價有可能我們就可以馬上的來打消台電的這個虧損如果這個情況下我想請問院長的是明年還需要撥補嗎還是我們馬上刪除"},{"start":11352.899,"end":11380.812,"text":"還是等到看到了今年漲電價的這個結果打消累計虧損的結果以後我們再來決定明年要不要再追加一千億的預算畢竟一千億不是一千塊是不是都是人民辛苦的納稅權院長你怎麼樣決定這個東西你是交給台電還是最後在院會裡面由院長決定"},{"start":11381.952,"end":11410.104,"text":"跟委員報告,過去兩三年因為烏鶴戰爭的關係,原物料上漲的幅度是相當大的,那這個都是在臺電的吸收範圍當中,所以我們必須要填補這些東西。 那我們期待臺電的營運能夠月區健全,就是它接近反應成本的月區健全,那明年它電價會不會調整,不是現在我說,當然是明年審議委員會,我期待,我期待。"},{"start":11411.185,"end":11438.623,"text":"如果按照這樣子的方式其實你們的追加預算的今年1000億的追加預算你就應該把它編在收入嘛馬上打消它的累計虧損嘛未來當然啦等到下一次的電價審議的時候那就不用再調整電價這才是苦民所苦現在民眾已經非常非常苦了"},{"start":11440.883,"end":11460.509,"text":"現在電價調不調整當然是電價審議委員會了但是我是期待在今年這樣調整之後我們可以穩定一段時間對電價讓它穩定這是我的期待我想任何一個政府的官員都不希望用調整各種的民生費用來增加人民的負擔"},{"start":11461.189,"end":11485.538,"text":"這是你我共同的心願所以我才在這裡提出建議嘛如果你邊在收入的話那電價審議委員會會不會調整電價也要按照台電目前虧損以及他財務的情況那如果我們按照這樣子財務的規劃的話是不是可以馬上的讓他打消累計虧損而且我想請問的"},{"start":11486.698,"end":11501.901,"text":"如果按照這個情況把它列在營業收入就是這一千億的撥補列在營業收入的話我想請問卓院長的你要補助哪一些產業是中小企業還是要補助民生用電"},{"start":11503.072,"end":11520.653,"text":"當然是補助民生用電現在今年這一次的調整我們就是補助民生用電以及一些過去這段時間以來它的這個營業或是用電衰退的我們盡量不予調整但是所產生出來跟成本之間的差額"},{"start":11521.254,"end":11524.756,"text":"華東的旅宿業真的是經營上的困難,增加就算7%也是困難,那現在其他的旅宿業也在跟我們整形要求要比照。"},{"start":11543.387,"end":11543.847,"text":"國會主委跟教育部長請備詢"},{"start":11571.906,"end":11575.328,"text":"你們故意走得很慢,沒關係,我的時間停了。"},{"start":11583.08,"end":11609.017,"text":"副主委我知道你很關心台積電要不要在德國還有歐洲國家設廠我看到新聞可是你知不知道我們二零我們彰化的縣民也很希望台積電可以來二零中科設廠你知道科學園區也是你的管轄範圍內吧你清楚的了解吧是"},{"start":11609.929,"end":11633.622,"text":"那對於這個你有什麼你昨天評論了你說說台積電要去德國還有歐洲很多國家設廠那對於我們彰化線民的判斷 呃 盼望你給予什麼樣子的回應我們對於台灣各處的可能發展的基地我們都會協助那彰化20的這個科學園區"},{"start":11635.97,"end":11651.929,"text":"目前他的基地是比較小,而且當初在……基地不小欸,我們現在只用了一半而已,一半還不到,招商一半還不到,未來我們希望招商更多欸。今天是國是會沒來欸,我才跟你講欸。"},{"start":11652.99,"end":11676.426,"text":"郭志輝也在趕快把這個台積電相關的封測,因為我們二林中科是一個低度用水用電,它可以做的是半導體裡面的封測啊。那有台積電的封測,也有相關其他封測的產業。 報告委員郭志輝都在把他們拉攏到產業院去,你要不要把他拉攏到科學院去啊?"},{"start":11677.806,"end":11693.774,"text":"如果條件許可的話,廠商也有意願,我們當然會協助,但是現在目前二零的這個水電的這個需求,因為有受到當初在環境影響評估的時候決議的限制,那個如果我們"},{"start":11694.594,"end":11719.305,"text":"地方政府願意積極協助。 封測可以,那你要不要大力協助。你不要只關心歐洲嘛,你要不要關心我們台灣。 報告委員,報告委員,前瞻封測不是像傳統封測一樣。臺電現在需求的是前瞻封測,它也牽涉到晶圓的處理。晶圓的處理需要用到相當大的這個水電,所以條件現在還不符合。那如果說將來地方政府積極去規劃,能夠從產磚區開始,"},{"start":11722.686,"end":11722.966,"text":"目前這個道明"},{"start":11752.617,"end":11779.246,"text":"明道大學這個退場他是由這個衛福部要準備這個來接管那也就是說他希望在那邊發張化縣政府跟衛福部共同嘛 對不對衛福部他做那個藥草的那個草藥院那其他的就是體育設施以及校舍相關的部分是由張化縣政府來共同接管嘛主要的"},{"start":11780.546,"end":11794.695,"text":"統籌是彰化縣政府那目前我們也希望最近我們的政府部門在推的是AI那我們也希望爭取AI智慧產業軟體園區來到這裡設廠還有目前才剛公佈的碳費的部分"},{"start":11802.04,"end":11817.792,"text":"我們也希望探全交易平臺 畢竟我們有非常多的離岸風電那是不是能夠把部分的離岸 一小部分提供給當然就是提供給我們彰化的中小企業"},{"start":11818.573,"end":11835.795,"text":"因為大部分的綠電已經被科學園區的拿去了嘛,但是對於中小企業有嫁接到國際綠色供應業裡面的中小企業,他們也需要相關的探權啊,是不是能夠協助呢?"},{"start":11839.176,"end":11848.448,"text":"這一個因為我們目前的一個辦法確實就是由衛福部來統籌啦,但是如果他這個這個整個空間我想我們在整個整體的一個規劃跨部會裡面看怎麼樣來協助這個讓空間能夠做到一個更"},{"start":11859.893,"end":11874.045,"text":"大學退場的問題,教育部也是其中的一份子,不要再推給微服部,還有行政院的0到6歲國家養的政策,目前推動的情況是如何?"},{"start":11875.115,"end":11899.86,"text":"我們0到2歲的專班也會在明年開始會增設200班,這個是大家非常…那在彰化縣呢?因為我們彰化縣現在有些鄉鎮是欠缺0到2歲的國嬰的部分,有些鄉鎮欠缺3到6歲幼兒園的部分,那這樣子分配不均的情況下,怎麼樣子發展0到6歲呢?"},{"start":11901.54,"end":11930.006,"text":"幼兒園跟0到20歲的專班我覺得各地都有需求啦各地都有需求量還是不夠像我之前到高雄他們說這邊已經有兩班了我們上化界也有需求啊各地應該透過地方政府趕快整合一下不是高雄有需求全台灣都有需求你怎麼做你要落實這個政見不是只有單一個方向當然是我說全台灣都有需求趕快提出各縣市的需求那麼有沒有設置的地點要怎麼樣去做合作"},{"start":11932.927,"end":11956.954,"text":"目前的確在彰化縣的各鄉鎮對於這0到6歲大家都沒有辦法真的知道政見要怎麼落實因為有些部分缺的是0到2歲有些部分缺的是3到6歲在缺的不均勻的情況下這個政見就沒有辦法落實我認為"},{"start":11962.401,"end":11984.7,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員還有卓院長報告院會上午質詢到此為止本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案就不進行臨時提案之處理下午2點30分繼續開會進行教育及文化組之質詢現在休息"},{"start":21593.507,"end":21619.397,"text":"現在我們繼續開會,進行教育及文化組織質詢。 首先請莊瑞雄委員質詢。謝謝韓院長,有請我們行政院卓院長。麻煩請卓院長備詢。我們教育部,我們政部長。請教育部長備詢。"},{"start":21625.382,"end":21650.096,"text":"委員長午安我想昨天針對於中共對台灣又進行這樣一個還台的軍援不過這跟以前來做比較的話一天就結束了好像觀光一樣但是我看新華社他特別去講說這是對台獨分裂勢力的強力的一個震懾然後說是捍衛國家主權然後維護國家統一的必要的一個行動"},{"start":21651.416,"end":21657.232,"text":"這個我看聽在台灣人的耳朵裡面大家可能會覺得鬼才要跟他去統一"},{"start":21658.223,"end":21684.399,"text":"但是老共的統戰手法除了文攻武嚇以外﹖軍事政治跟經濟上的壓力﹖這幾年他也透過文化跟體育活動進行統戰﹖而且是軟硬兼施。 比如說2個月前在第5屆海峽兩岸青少年的棒球文化節聽起來都很正常的體育活動﹖"},{"start":21685.814,"end":21708.407,"text":"可是我去看到國內辦主任宋濤利用體育的賽事,其實他在談的都是一中原則和九二共識,強調習近平高度重視關心台灣的青年,歡迎台灣的青年共築中國夢。可是我看到昨天這樣的一個軍演,這個都是兩面的一個手法。"},{"start":21710.328,"end":21736.994,"text":"這樣的一個活動體育的活動我們國內其實我們看到縣市首長去了也是強調九二共識反對台獨那比如說上個月福建有一個叫做同名村講名字稱頭就對了叫做村BA人家NBA講名字就叫做村BA籃球邀請賽就利用這個中青文化的情感跟歷史的一個交織進一步也是談談兩岸一家親這看起來很清楚的這個都是一種統戰可是這個"},{"start":21739.455,"end":21758.132,"text":"本院我們立委也會去拍片,然後去幫忙做這樣的一個背書。 我不曉得我們院長跟部長,你們看到了這一些中國利用體育賽事來當一個統戰的一個工具,這些資訊你們有沒有去掌握?那接下來我們面對這樣的情況的話,院長你的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":21763.365,"end":21773.858,"text":"首先我們當然希望體育運動賽事無國界,讓全世界的好手能夠聚集一堂來互相的切磋比較,但是如果"},{"start":21775.283,"end":21800.076,"text":"過去到現在以來,參差太多的政治因素,連參加人的服裝、旗歌這樣都要對我們種種限制的話,那就是用一頂大帽子再讓我們穿小鞋,這樣是非常不好的。兩岸之間通常就在這種狀況底下。我實在很希望,如果這些活動真的是誠心誠意為對方著想,對方的年輕人的活動參與,那是非常非常好的。"},{"start":21800.276,"end":21823.283,"text":"但是通常不是這樣子的,所以我們要有相當大的戒心。我非常贊同院長你所提到,其實哪怕是昨天中共軍演剛結束,你說兩岸之間的,你說體育、文化這些交流,我想不要涉及一些統戰,台灣的民眾還是可以接受兩邊的這樣的一個交流,但是看到這樣子我很"},{"start":21823.963,"end":21824.143,"text":"民進黨執政時,運動預算"},{"start":21852.849,"end":21875.022,"text":"提出2016年79.8億到2022年的時候130億2023年的時候137.6億到2024年超過160億那最近這個組織裡面外界都認為是要升格雖然行政院認為說這是一個全新的跟升格的概念不一樣OK但是我比較擔心的是什麼我比較擔心的是說院長"},{"start":21875.862,"end":21903.755,"text":"這如果從教育部裡面我們來組織或是藥物都打開之後我們最擔心的是說體育的部分需要去改革新的一個運動部成立以後必須要去回應外界對整個以後整個運動界的一個一個真正的他們的一個需求那我要救教院長的就是說你去把它看我前幾天去"},{"start":21904.951,"end":21925.609,"text":"質詢我們人事長,我們體育部組織成立了,緣額到底要怎麼編,以目前教育部本部的緣額是567人,公務預算緣額是1540人,體育署是165。那人事長他是跟我回應就是說,體育署已有限職人員上部區去修訂了中央政府的一個機關總緣額法。"},{"start":21927.915,"end":21954.702,"text":"站在人事長他的一個立場他一定認為組織看有沒有辦法精簡可是站在你行政院這麼多部會裡面啊像我就看到海巡也好啊我們看到警察人員也好啊我們甚至看到我們的檢察機關也好啊法務部也好啊他們又需要很多人力了那可是我們運動部上來以後我們要必須要去增加他人力的"},{"start":21955.828,"end":21956.028,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":21975.841,"end":21998.676,"text":"教育部的體育署不是升格的問題是讓他完全全新的一個體育部所以他除了要全民運動除了要國際競技運動產業之外也會對一些弱勢的一些運動項目我們給他更好的運動空間跟環境這個都會在未來的運動部裡面產生當然人事總署他會希望說原額精簡"},{"start":21999.724,"end":22025.961,"text":"但是我認為在有限的人事當中我們只要給他賦予未來的運動部新的政策宗旨他就必定會有新的發展而且他的預算也比往年還要多我們絕對不會浪費任何的預算會讓他充分的發揮所以我們都期待啦我們期待運動部成立以後那個整個中央的一個資源很精準的可以下到那個基層我們也可以希望運動部的成立以後"},{"start":22027.469,"end":22046.301,"text":"更來擴展整個全民運動的一個思維但是真的最主要我們最擔心的不要換湯不換藥應該是去改革過去的一些弊端回應外界的一個訴求那個文化部長請回另外我要跟這個院長跟部長來就教就是說"},{"start":22047.744,"end":22073.445,"text":"這個議題其實運動部的成立就真的是從這個議題就看得出來有它的必要教育部現在你看你們的彩券就你們管的嘛 現在教育部一關彩券很怪怪的啦 人家在拐弄啦那電競跟你們那一關其實也怪怪的啦 所以你們顧一下 成立一個運動部讓它去歸屬也不是壞事 我要就照院長跟部長就是說你們兩位平常你們不知道有沒有在關注運動賽事 我相信都有 你們剛好買過彩券 運動彩券 運彩"},{"start":22076.069,"end":22079.252,"text":"我買過一次你買一個,一組齁,幾塊你不知道多少?10塊,一個要10組"},{"start":22087.732,"end":22105.619,"text":"這是正當的那我要講的就是說我們今年在奧運裡面我們去拿到了兩金五銅總共七面獎牌那前幾年的幾年前的東京奧運裡面我們更創下了兩金四銀六銅十二面獎牌最好的一個成績這個在我們的黃金計畫裡面這個經費的一個奧元來自於哪裡就是我們的運動發展基金"},{"start":22112.222,"end":22133.389,"text":"那這一筆經費很大一部分來自於我們的運動彩券的一個盈餘。這個運彩的一個蓬勃發展不僅推動了體育圈,也讓我們的選手有更多的資源來做一個支持。那運動彩券的收入越高,你當然投入運動發展的錢當然會越多。110年,81年多多年,你知不知道?六百多年,沒關係你不用看,六百多年。"},{"start":22137.659,"end":22150.078,"text":"那到現在8月份,我只是沒掉到8月份而已,就422億了,看來今年應該算不錯。但是呢,時機不夠多,什麼原因呢?這我直接跟議長和部長跟你們說明。"},{"start":22153.191,"end":22171.733,"text":"我們的運採的經銷商面臨很大的業績的一個壓力。 現在第三屆,台灣的運採新增快了一千家的經銷商。 但是呢,市場投注的風氣沒有明顯去提升。 很多經銷商,他的業績反而下滑。 為什麼你知道嗎?你給他幾年要五十萬?"},{"start":22173.439,"end":22173.999,"text":"二、退佣．一張彩券退佣6.5%"},{"start":22196.772,"end":22201.96,"text":"有些店家現在一張只能賺6.25的佣金可是退佣是到5%"},{"start":22208.564,"end":22212.607,"text":"二、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":22238.919,"end":22263.557,"text":"移植到我們整個運動發展基金裡面去,我們讓我們的國際賽事裡面,因為這比前培養更多的一個那麼棒的選手,可是我們在這些肢解裡面,我認為這個也是改革的一環啦。告訴老婆,我都覺得怪怪的啦,這未來運動部應該去做個好事啦。另外一種,部長、院長你也不用笑啦,我那邊有很多人要拔轎,"},{"start":22264.977,"end":22293.003,"text":"你如果說要擲這個運彩還好,都擲什麼你知道嗎?非法的,球棒嘛,球板嘛,就是一般講的球板嘛,就是地下運彩啦。如果是真的是要運彩,我們就政府這個跟委託機關發行的就可以玩啦。可是呢為什麼大家不玩?不好玩還到去一年還6百億喔?阿如果好玩咧?阿為什麼會跟地下運彩,那所謂的球板差那麼多,不中你知道嗎?"},{"start":22295.396,"end":22295.416,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":22315.539,"end":22341.804,"text":"地下的、非法的、那些球板的我一萬塊,我贏了就贏九千,後來把那個期末錢給亂贏的。 所以呢,大家都抱怨了,這個叫做,這種叫做什麼?這種球板喔,用這樣的一個賠率的方式喔,我們政府都輸給人家。 有一種叫現金版的,另外一種叫做信用版的,現金版的就是垃圾啊。 另外一種叫做信用版,我教你怎麼擲,擲地下運財啦。"},{"start":22345.396,"end":22362.928,"text":"信用版的是怎樣?你信用版一定的額度,你政府長給你這個做到補訂的你的GIF所,給你100萬。 報案來之後,不用花錢來啊。啊你報書你要錢來啊。啊你沒錢要怎麼辦?嘿嘿,就有人來我借你錢。 地下錢帳我就借你錢。啊借完又沒錢怎麼辦?"},{"start":22362.928,"end":22369.293,"text":"有一組人,他就來給你討席啊。 討席你要怎麼辦?你就招勞啊。 社會案件就發生了。"},{"start":22369.895,"end":22378.077,"text":"所以連這個賠率我都認為,我們就已經開放這個運財了,那為什麼會這次1比1,1.5呢?"},{"start":22378.077,"end":22387.219,"text":"跟那個地下運財齁,幹扁啦,不對嗎?1.9都賣當1.9啊,政府也有稅收,欸?韓院長在笑啦,你看。 他們選總統的時候我也在爬到要死耶。"},{"start":22394.52,"end":22414.601,"text":"何況這個是正常運動的一個彩券,你那個退翁那個文化那個不對。 第二個你那個賠率跟那個地下的運財差的讓人家覺得你都毫無吸引力齁。 這些又怕齁,搞不好齁,讓他們在那裡猖獗齁,造成一大堆煮頭。 這個我看齁,不然你簡單給我回應一下好不好。"},{"start":22418.839,"end":22421.761,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個硬財,確實它這些年來這個硬財這個利潤確實協助了這個國內的運動這個蓬勃發展。 那麼運動採卷這個也讓我們運動發展基金這個隱移編列這個有多了,這些年有這個收入60多億。"},{"start":22445.134,"end":22457.958,"text":"那包含這一次的巴黎奧運整個這個印柴大概有100將近50億我們就實收大概有10億的這樣所以我的意思是說經銷商困境我們要幫人家解決所謂的這個退"},{"start":22465.598,"end":22467.5,"text":"政府委託去發行以後,那個制度有弊端或有不合理,我們也要改革"},{"start":22483.769,"end":22499.201,"text":"你已經合法認許他的一個存在啦那你為什麼讓他我佣金6.25我退佣退5%我其他我只做金水電子也不夠那變成說就變成大家一起來賭博了嘛那你要賭你又輸給人家那個地下彩券"},{"start":22500.489,"end":22524.309,"text":"不通啦,我現在是職欄的會長,拜託把我們的職欄線索列進去啦,品項就多了嘛。博弈型的運彩跟彩券都必須有社會更安全的管控才可以,尤其是運彩更牽涉到比賽的公平性。那如果政府提供更安全可靠的,用這個來吸引國人來參與,但是在計算的過程當中,我們如果說"},{"start":22525.57,"end":22529.292,"text":"我完全沒有辦法跟這個地下的來競爭的話那我覺得運採他的功能會"},{"start":22566.312,"end":22568.194,"text":"接下來請登記第8號黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":22588.65,"end":22589.871,"text":"行政院主席"},{"start":22602.165,"end":22603.306,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":22620.888,"end":22638.2,"text":"院長,這是這次針對山頭河颱風過後,有許多需要重建的問題。 這邊也希望院長能夠盡快支持各部會來,盡快來協助。 那這次山頭河颱風不只重創我們高屏地區,就是在屏東旁邊的台東,也是這家的重災區。 照片中我們可以看到,"},{"start":22640.131,"end":22662.539,"text":"五十六重回民宅的家園,民眾的家園,農地基居掩埋。 根據我們農業部的統計,這次台東縣的農災高達4000萬以上,是我們全國第三關。 但是在颱風過後,我們看到賴清德總統到了金山萬里勘災。 柏中麗親自到我們屏東來會堪。 我們副院長也到了新北的這個著名美術館。"},{"start":22663.519,"end":22689.138,"text":"但是針對全國農損第三慘重的臺東, 中央部會遲遲沒有派人下來看災。 上個禮拜五,也就是10月11日在本席的要求下, 行政院工程會、農業部、園民會也才終於派人到臺東來會看災情。 議長在這邊我必須代表臺東人,對這一次山陀和颱風, 中央對於臺東的漠視表達最嚴重的抗議。 議定"},{"start":22691.728,"end":22719.409,"text":"臺東的山雖然比較多,但災情不至於看不到。 臺東的人口雖然比較少,但民眾的聲音也不至於聽不到。 未來也希望中央就災千萬不要大硝煙。 尤其是這一次山洞的颱風過後,我們農業部公告的這個農業天然災害現金補助部分,我們隔壁的地區是全品項。 臺東縣目前只有達人鄉、大武鄉、金峰鄉、泰馬里鄉,也就是所謂的南回地區的特用作物,就是洛神花。"},{"start":22720.33,"end":22749.102,"text":"在做這個補助我想這落差實在太大這個是簡直是把臺東當第二等公民那針對臺東災後的協助本席有兩點要求希望院長能夠表明態度第一就是針對臺東災後的農產損失農地流失繼續損壞中央必須擴大補助而不是只有現在的洛神華這個項目那針對臺東縣政府所提報的災後重建的部分中央也要盡力的來提供經費協助地方渡過難關"},{"start":22750.222,"end":22765.802,"text":"第二,眾院該比照凱米颱風期間補助中環部縣市的專案,額外給予颱風縣災民每戶2萬元的補助金。 另外針對特殊身份加碼,讓災民能夠盡快恢復日常生活,請問院長,這個部分是不是願意承諾來協助?"},{"start":22767.022,"end":22790.322,"text":"好首先向委員表示歉意因為在一樣的時間我們總能走的就是有限的空間所以總統也好副院長也好我跟我也好我們就在上個禮拜六禮拜天跑了一些地方那很抱歉的是上個禮拜我們又有國慶的各種外賓的來訪等等又有其他又有總諮詢我是在沒有辦法分身乏術這點真的是抱歉不過委員放心所有的"},{"start":22791.182,"end":22807.669,"text":"封災之後的補助的標準,我們都照過去一樣的來執行,一樣的來執行,你要講最後那一點,就是是不是可以有加2萬,這個我們對淹水50米以上的,我們都有這樣加,50米以下我們也加5000,我記得。"},{"start":22808.809,"end":22808.949,"text":"主席"},{"start":22829.945,"end":22848.109,"text":"這個補助單位一個依據所以他現在開發的APP只要照個相傳上去就可以如果這個還有疑問我也請農業部跟委員詳細說明謝謝部長非常正面的答覆那我想以上是颱風過後我們希望中央能夠立即來協助的部分那接下來我想要再跟院長來請教說針對今年0403強震之後加上連續的颱風造成花東地區的觀光產業一落千丈"},{"start":22855.45,"end":22875.065,"text":"那在這一次我們進一步公佈最新的電價調整方案中﹐有看到﹐中央來協助花園的旅宿業者﹐這個部分本席非常的贊同。那院長﹐其實花東本是一體﹐政府在補助的過程裡面﹐要雪中種碳﹐不是雪上加霜﹐如果"},{"start":22875.865,"end":22888.513,"text":"花蓮受創臺東也嚴重這部分也是請院長回去務必跟我們相關部會來演繹臺東縣能夠比照花蓮給予臺東的旅宿業者來協助幫助他們走過難關院長畢竟臺東的產業非常單純一個是農業一個就是觀光這部分院長是不是能夠來允諾"},{"start":22894.428,"end":22918.336,"text":"好,是的,原來如果不是颱風的因素,所以我也跟委員約好了要去臺東,瞭解臺東的產業,臺中各種的農產,以及臺東這個當地在0403之後花蓮影響跟臺東影響的狀況,我們會全力來協助,花蓮有的,臺東就會有。謝謝院長,院長本期可以當地培,找中國人地培,好,我們一起,一起,好,謝謝。"},{"start":22919.502,"end":22920.083,"text":"請教育部長備詢"},{"start":22938.766,"end":22961.618,"text":"來部長好 委員好部長本席首先要為臺東的學子來請命之前有一個新聞就是臺東高中的學生是穿著襪子在游泳池上游泳課那因為原因就是因為這個游泳池老舊池底有這個死灰質沉澱所以導致學生在游泳的時候腳都會化傷那學校沒辦法的情況就是先穿襪子去上游泳課這件事情其實在新聞也被報導過"},{"start":22962.739,"end":22981.413,"text":"那另外呢,就是我們臺東女中的這個紅土跑道操場損毀的問題,它不只損毀,還有包括還有坑道,那每次東北氣風來就是塵土飛揚,那雨後還會積水,造成學生運動會容易受傷。那今年6月份的時候,本期在委員會質詢部長的時候,部長也答應,"},{"start":22982.473,"end":23001.028,"text":"來全力協助這邊先謝謝部長但就本席了解目前兩間學校已經提報了相關的改善經費給教育部那分別是臺東高中游泳池改善經費是1000萬元那臺東女中的操場改善經費是1500萬元請問我們部裡面什麼時候會通過核定另外是不是能夠全額來補助"},{"start":23004.101,"end":23031.251,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為確實上一次的那一個有關游泳池穿襪子那一個確實是學校在整個那一個溺水的一個系統它出的狀況那當時他們並沒有針對這一個整個這一個問題提出申請所以感謝委員的一個提醒然後這個部裡邊這個國教署也按照這一個請學校再趕快再補送這一個資料那我想我們應該會"},{"start":23033.012,"end":23033.852,"text":"拜託部長小朋友已經開學了"},{"start":23057.643,"end":23057.923,"text":"請國科委主委備選"},{"start":23100.267,"end":23123.375,"text":"主委好主委那個先前有國科有表示說今年我們要選定這個國家火箭發射場那可能座落的位置是在台東縣跟屏東縣這兩個地方來擇一那我想要考慮到地理物理環境的影響那也要足夠的擴充性最重要是能夠跟當地政府來溝通那本席這邊要幫台東縣來爭取這個場址"},{"start":23127.137,"end":23155.596,"text":"有兩個原因,第一個就是說,我們發設的預定地的位置,原本選定的是在臺東縣達人鄉的南田村,那村長這邊表示說,他非常的樂意,村民也普遍的能夠接受,認為是可以帶動地方的觀光產業發展。那當地的議員,也認為這可以增加就業的機會,臺東縣政府也是表示歡迎。這代表國發會,未來如果選在這邊設置的話,地方的溝通應該會很順利,對於後續我們要推動也是水到渠成。"},{"start":23156.716,"end":23158.897,"text":"二、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":23179.104,"end":23181.625,"text":"謝謝黃委員目前我們兩個場址包含臺東縣的南田部落還有屏東縣的九坤村都符合我們基本的條件設定的這個要求"},{"start":23206.365,"end":23234.783,"text":"那現在兩個縣政府也都很積極的希望能夠來爭取經過國會審慎的這個規劃我們的確是希望把我們未來火箭國家火箭發射場子能夠把它經營成不是只有偶爾去發射火箭而已而是一個教育的也是一個教育的場子也是一個能夠促進觀光的場子促進這個地方發展的這個場子所以相信未來這個規劃"},{"start":23236.28,"end":23236.98,"text":"臺東縣是您選擇的一個好答案"},{"start":23264.107,"end":23290.946,"text":"好謝謝主委主委先休息我想問一下部長那部長接下來我們要請教最近的議題就是斑斑有鮮乳的這個議題那我想教育部先前跟農業部共同推出這個斑斑有鮮乳政策那許多縣市不同部那以及有些老師會反映這個在不管在保存配送方面都會增加教育現場非常大的負擔以台東縣來說如果要讓鮮乳要讓學童喝到鮮乳"},{"start":23291.747,"end":23303.497,"text":"第一要考慮的是交通成本,第二是冷鏈的配送,第三個是冰箱保存,電費的支出,光是這個項目,這四個部分就會增加很大的經費。 我想要請教議員,這件事是中央出還是我們地方來出?"},{"start":23309.268,"end":23326.185,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個我們怎麼樣讓兒童能夠有一個更好的一個成長的環境包括在營養上的一個支持這個鈣跟蛋白質的一個補充我想這一個當時的一個起心動念就是希望能夠讓學童有更好的發展空間"},{"start":23328.758,"end":23349.474,"text":"部長本席補充齁,台東縣以整個台東縣來說,我們有26所學校是申請鮮乳,91所學校是申請補酒乳,不是大家比較愛喝補酒乳,原因就是因為你鮮乳的配送成本太高,台東福利又廣闊了齁,那雖然這個政策很好,可是有時候你看到就喝不中嘛,"},{"start":23350.094,"end":23377.536,"text":"所以最重要是這經費是誰要來協助啦,不能你中央政協改好,中央你請人家,你副用要被人家負擔嗎?感謝委員指導,因為確實我們這一學期也希望能夠透過這一個實際的,因為本來全台灣已經有10個縣市,不管結合營養午餐或者其他的一個時間,提供這個先來的一個供給。那我們也希望說,除了地方政府有一些趕快能夠下單,然後這一個怎麼樣去"},{"start":23378.297,"end":23380.319,"text":"部長,這個經費我們可以支持,我們可以支持經費的部分。"},{"start":23398.271,"end":23401.772,"text":"我現在要表達偏鄉的公務人員跟老師的心聲曾經有一部很有名的電影叫做老師,您會不會再回來?老師你會不會再回來?這個是在講什麼?講偏鄉老師流動率的問題"},{"start":23428.68,"end":23436.088,"text":"那個 部長 院長你們知道現在臺東公交人員的家籍是多少錢嗎?630塊臺北到臺東火車票將近800塊等於說東臺家籍一個月的家籍還不夠買一張車票"},{"start":23445.441,"end":23473.543,"text":"那因為這樣的情況之下你加擠的用因這麼少我們怎麼樣把老師留下來沒有穩定的施施怎麼樣發展教育這個部分施請教育部未來能夠演繹在加擠上能夠做這一生謝謝委員的這個指證因為我確實我上來以後我們感受到這一個偏鄉洗多的這些老師怎麼樣讓老師有一個能夠更長久的留任在偏鄉前任的潘部長也特別"},{"start":23474.023,"end":23497.993,"text":"通過了這一個各位委員的一個支持,這個9任獎金,行政院也全力來支持,在2014年我們就會有一個9任獎金。那另外一個老師,我們怎麼樣去考慮像花蓮、台東的老師,讓他能夠這個施施的一個培育,包括他的任用能夠永續,我們也開始在規劃一些新的方案。 條件用意還是要有,不能只靠熱忱,跟部長的報告。"},{"start":23499.594,"end":23503.326,"text":"那我想時間的關係最後我想要一件事情請教一下我們主委院長齁"},{"start":23551.879,"end":23552.019,"text":"陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":23584.969,"end":23589.612,"text":"謝謝院長請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢也請文化部長李遠部長請文化部部長備詢陳委員好院長好院長請問你有看過黑白大廚這個節目嗎我這個禮拜"},{"start":23609.855,"end":23613.296,"text":"黑白大廚是目前最夯的韓國實境秀,風靡全球。 黑白大廚播映之後,紛紛有網友來討論說,臺灣有沒有能力資金拍出這樣的實境秀?"},{"start":23613.296,"end":23615.577,"text":"院長,您認為,韓國有黑白大廚,臺灣有沒有德基賽的出路材?"},{"start":23633.659,"end":23635.481,"text":"我們有這樣的能力但是我們有沒有這樣的決心當全球的觀眾從一個判論比賽的節目得到各種啟發"},{"start":23653.702,"end":23680.875,"text":"開始討論比賽輸贏的人生哲理商業的專業管理的重要旅遊平台他們統計說韓國美食文化成為吸引遊客的優先考慮參賽者的餐廳內被慕名而來的talker預約到爆滿一個成功的節目其實它的成就並不只在戲劇的效果帶動的周邊的這些效益無可計數更遑論說所謂的一道料理就一春甚至說一個節目就成全韓國的這個餐飲業"},{"start":23683.617,"end":23693.924,"text":"同時一個成功的節目要投入也不只是戲劇的部分,從企劃、投入、設備、成本、賽程、安排、邀請參賽者、人際網的運用請得動評審這樣的創意跟執行力"},{"start":23699.507,"end":23715.095,"text":"我們的影視有沒有去體會到影視之路其實如逆水行舟不進則退,當你進步的不夠快的時候就會被別人超越。那除了公部門的扶植、獎勵、補助之外,我們有沒有企圖心,我們有沒有進軍國際市場的決心,有沒有帶給觀眾共鳴的信心。"},{"start":23720.177,"end":23744.295,"text":"我們文化部為了扶植相關的影視音產業也執行了相當多的計畫也補助了不少很優質的劇本以及音樂的製作文策院這邊也投資了很多很優質的戲劇當我們不斷的前進不斷的進步的時候其實其他影視音大國也不斷的創新跟進步他們大步向前所以我們要問黑潮計畫如何引領台流?"},{"start":23748.183,"end":23768.305,"text":"好,謝謝委員給我們這個機會。西元2000年韓國金大中總統上來之後開始推動韓流,我都有一直注意,一直到現在,我覺得韓國的發展可以讓我們接近之外,我們台灣本身的文化體育跟韓國也不完全一樣,我非常感謝在這幾年"},{"start":23769.646,"end":23786.562,"text":"政府給了我們一個黑潮計畫也就是4年100億可以讓我們的輔導基金不管是劇或者是電影增加輔導錢之外還有文社院的投資文社院拿到國發基金的100億也幫助了我們去投資有國際規格的劇跟電影"},{"start":23788.919,"end":23805.169,"text":"那這些動作雖然比較慢但是已經開始了另外我們也在修法鼓勵引進民間的資金來投入因為韓國最厲害的一點就是把民間的錢全部引進來到這個影視產業有因為我們只要有遞減稅"},{"start":23809.691,"end":23836.5,"text":"提檢稅這些文創的法律我們都陸續已經通過所以我自己個人有一直看到很多企業已經在投資而且來跟我們申請提檢稅第三個我們一定要知道像Netflix這種國際型的大型的OTD我們台灣實在是不夠那麼大但是最近我們已經開始非常積極的跟三大電信這個三雄比如中華電信、遠傳"},{"start":23838.22,"end":23838.42,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":23868.524,"end":23869.044,"text":"阿凡請教育部長備選"},{"start":23904.838,"end":23933.773,"text":"院長,接下來本席這邊要跟院長討論有關電子煙的相關問題。到目前為止其實電子煙包含煙油跟機器本身都是管制的項目,也就是說是禁止輸入、買賣跟吸食。但是本席相信您院長跟部長也知道說目前外面其實可以看到民眾甚至是學生是拿著電子煙在吸食。本席也特地上網找過,院長可以看一下我們的投影片,其實在網路上購買電子煙是非常容易的。"},{"start":23934.233,"end":23953.085,"text":"還有網站說可以替客戶隱密包裝用不顯示內容物的方式來規避查緝那實際上呢其實實體的店家私下賣的也不少真的不難買到我手上這就是電子煙的機器的本身那這個是煙袋口味很多種"},{"start":23954.605,"end":23974.115,"text":"哈密瓜還有芒果我把它放到我的包包裡我一直都聞到哈密瓜那個香味然後這個煙蛋它也不貴它真的不貴又容易買它一盒裡面有三顆它有三顆煙蛋很容易買到那本席之所以憂心是因為電子煙油不僅它的內容成分不安全也會有含有毒品的煙蛋"},{"start":23978.638,"end":23992.967,"text":"其實國建署的調查,青少年使用電子菸的比例是年年上升,其實這是一個警訊。那之所以提到電子菸以及煙彈,是因為目前新興毒品也就是俗稱的上市煙彈非常的猖獗。"},{"start":23993.767,"end":24016.448,"text":"近幾個月也有因為毒價而奪走多名員警的生命所以這一類的毒品對人體的傷害是非常的大十分的嚴重那令本席很憂心就是說已經有所謂上市煙彈進入校園這樣的報導所以本席這邊想了解到說我們教育部對於所謂上市煙彈進入校園的狀況你們有掌握嗎?你們有了解這個狀況嗎?"},{"start":24018.226,"end":24038.061,"text":"跟委員報告,確實這一個有學校會不定期的有學生有這樣的一個其實這一個電子菸或者一些我們講的所謂的這些毒品,三級的毒品,我們是學務處這一個部分,學務室他這有一個校安隨時都會通報的。"},{"start":24039.889,"end":24056.367,"text":"所以這邊教育部也有了解到這樣的狀況喔上次煙彈其實在今年的8月才正式列為第三類毒品那我們的孩子能不能抵擋上次煙彈的誘惑或是能不能戰勝好奇心院長您覺得說我們要如何有效的防堵上次煙彈進入校園"},{"start":24058.969,"end":24080.467,"text":"報告委員,我們現在在討論的過程當中,我們是在針對加熱菸,所以電子菸目前是完全沒有開放的,是禁止的。那加熱菸目前也還沒有開放,只是它進入到一個由各家提出來審議的過程當中,那這個是必要非常非常的嚴謹,因為兩相比較,電子菸對青少年的危害對人類來說是多的。"},{"start":24081.528,"end":24106.713,"text":"所以這個就是我們現在在禁制之後還沒有開放 這個不會開放的我們希望能夠這個教育部也好 一個相關的這個內政部的警察單位也好警政單位也好 也應該要做這個部分 因為已經把剛剛講的這個玉兔米子已經列為第三類的毒品了 那他就必須強力去取締黑金槍毒詐是我們武打期間裡面重要的列項 所以我們會全力去處理"},{"start":24107.711,"end":24108.512,"text":"我想是有的部長真真覺得是有"},{"start":24134.355,"end":24160.796,"text":"上次煙彈的危害其實不僅是成年的沒有辦法承受其實相對更會損害我們孩子的健康那我們看一下教育部這邊的資料112年國小濫用藥物通報案件有4件113年到8月就已經有4件了表示藥物濫用的年紀有往下的趨勢所以在這邊本席要要求第一個教育部應該要了解藥物濫用的這個藥物內容"},{"start":24163.017,"end":24182.353,"text":"針對新興毒品要及時及時的做出防毒宣導的教材來供教育現場的老師宣導教學使用。 第二個部分一定要橫向的聯合我們社政警政跟衛生的系統防毒安全網不應該有黑數存在我們必須清楚的掌握資訊才能夠有效的防堵。"},{"start":24182.893,"end":24206.748,"text":"第三個部分,國小藥物濫用這個建樹不降反升,所以很令人憂心說說濫用藥物的年齡階層往下這個趨勢變成是常態,所以對國小學生的這個加強宣導其實刻不容緩,部長您覺得?謝謝委員的提醒,確實委員剛才所提的那三個方向都是我們現在在努力的,而且這樣的一個菸毒的一個防治,"},{"start":24207.688,"end":24233.693,"text":"我相信他是社區學校跟家庭都要共同來合作所以在這個部分裡邊我們透過親師的一個座談或者班級的一個班會跟班級輔導相對的程度我們都會做一些事實的監導而且對他可能造成身心的這個傷害包括可能在這個法令上的一些啊這一個所這個違法的這些東西我們都會在一併的在"},{"start":24240.577,"end":24255.527,"text":"謝謝部長,所以本席剛才做了三個要求,我希望教育部真的要正視,就是對於我們及時做出這些防堵的教材,還有就是說我們要聯合社政警政跟衛生系統,以及我們對國小的學生加強這個宣導的教學。"},{"start":24257.208,"end":24283.066,"text":"其實防治毒品是一條漫漫長路上次煙彈它不會是終點一定會有不斷的有新興的新制的毒品被製造出來那我們最終都是希望說毒品不會進到校園希望我們的孩子不要碰毒希望我們的孩子能夠判斷能夠保護自己所以希望教育部能夠為毒品防治能夠更積極那接下來院長我們一樣要關心孩童的安全這也是個很讓人家比較痛心的一個議題"},{"start":24290.942,"end":24313.214,"text":"根據我們新聞的統計顯示從2021年開始我國的兒少交通事故傷亡人數是逐年的攀升少年的部分呢2023年增加了1486人兒童的部分暴增了2551人所以2023年的統計呢高達30151名的兒少在交通事故中有傷亡的情況"},{"start":24314.255,"end":24334.162,"text":"那臺灣的掃指化情況是非常的嚴峻喔那現在兒少交通事故傷亡的這個人數又持續的攀升這是個非常嚴重的問題顯見兒少的交通事故問題亟待檢討我想請教院長目前我們在學校端有沒有進行交通安全教育有沒有符合我們現在臺灣的交通現況"},{"start":24336.364,"end":24353.383,"text":"除了委員說的報告這個資料之外我們現在在學校周遭選擇200處的學校要優先改善它的入口那現在據我所知道已經進行了大概將近50處以上那另外就是危險入口在799處當中我們也進行了400多處這個都是進一步要確保在"},{"start":24358.428,"end":24375.164,"text":"行進的過程當中保障行人當然包括兒童包括一般行人的交通安全那這個會變成一個我們一直推動到明年一直進行完成的同時也會增加很多的號誌告示警告來告訴大家哪一個地方"},{"start":24376.285,"end":24400.463,"text":"駕駛人必須提高注意駕駛人沒有停留這個是現在最大的一個詬病所以我們要做更多的這種教育的過程才能讓大家在交通安全的意識能夠迅速的提高謝謝院長的回答那其實在硬體的設施設備的提升安全度這個是也是非常的重要但是本期希望說我們一定要注重孩子們交通安全的教育"},{"start":24400.643,"end":24425.561,"text":"讓大家去意識到怎樣的行的安全是正確的觀念然後如何保護自己所以我這邊希望說院長要跨部會來協調交通部跟教育部我們在學校要落實交通安全教育的推廣尤其應該要導入體驗式的這樣的交通教育實際的教導我們的孩子比如說他們在過馬路等紅燈的時候或是走斑馬線的時候如何避開視線死角"},{"start":24426.101,"end":24450.311,"text":"我們要給他正確的觀念來保護自己行的安全這樣子除了說我們在硬體設備安全的這個提升之外他本身有這樣子的安全的意識才能夠保護自己我們才能夠照顧我們的下一代所以這個部分是不是請院長可以研議我們提出具體的措施跟目標給本席就是關於這個兒童的交通安全教育的這個措施"},{"start":24451.247,"end":24479.26,"text":"這基本的教育我想任何的學校都已經在進行的那我們希望能夠有更重點性的比方告訴小朋友說我們有個號誌有那種早開的系統幫助你過馬路可以提早把那個號誌亮起來幫助你過馬路讓你有充裕的時間等等這個讓小朋友知道他在過馬路的時候有更多的安全資訊系統可以保護他他也可以去利用有強調過說是不是應該導入體驗式的交通教育"},{"start":24479.68,"end":24506.037,"text":"跟委員報告,我想剛才委員所強調體驗室的這個交通安全的一個學習,我想我們這個中小學都有在做的。那在這裡邊其實也要利用這個機會,我們一起要請社區跟家長,因為所有造成交通事故的基本上我們可以說都是成年人,來自於社區或者家長的一個接送小孩子。那兒童"},{"start":24534.146,"end":24534.926,"text":"臺灣公民參與協會臺灣公民參與協會臺灣公民參與協會臺灣公民參與協會"},{"start":24570.93,"end":24570.97,"text":"臨委員好"},{"start":24588.035,"end":24606.643,"text":"主席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題,來跟您做一些探討。 因為這些政策不僅影響聲援,還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展,族群和諧,甚至攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任。"},{"start":24607.779,"end":24626.35,"text":"每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史,是否能夠真正實現轉型正義,並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值。我在這邊逐一質詢,那麼希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。"},{"start":24629.608,"end":24653.683,"text":"首先呢,在針對院長您上週在對高金素美委員質詢時提出的一個回應,本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢淨法政策的時候,您回應他說,共產黨的話是您的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異,我相信也震驚了不少人。"},{"start":24655.014,"end":24677.131,"text":"包括本席在內,覺得院長的回應有一點怠忽輕視,還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解真正原住民的困境和訴求。 這句話不僅是對高精數美委員個人的冒犯,它更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望,包括本席。"},{"start":24678.379,"end":24704.645,"text":"原住民的問題從來都不是只是單純的環保問題,它涉及土地、文化認同還有基本生存權。 原住民族基本法也有規定,政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化生活方式,而高金委員所反映的不是只有他自己的意見,而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁法政策的憂心。"},{"start":24706.269,"end":24730.381,"text":"這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號所以院長您這番言論暴露出我們政治我國政治中長期存在了一個二分法的思維您碰到只要凡是有不同的聲音就視為是對立這種敵我思維不僅讓政策推不動還限縮了公共討論的空間"},{"start":24731.964,"end":24758.242,"text":"這樣子的做法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋樑的一個角色原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題還加深了一些傷口"},{"start":24762.793,"end":24781.405,"text":"高經委員的質詢不是只有他個人的呼籲,而且還是代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對,那麼轉型正義還能夠落實嗎?本席在這邊。"},{"start":24782.728,"end":24806.66,"text":"要求院長向高金委員正式的公開道歉。 這不僅是對他個人的尊重,那更是對所有原住民族的尊重。 您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族甚至其他族群的訴求。 院長,請您正視這些訴求,"},{"start":24808.592,"end":24809.033,"text":"我可以公開說明"},{"start":24827.947,"end":24838.629,"text":"我講了這句話之後,後面那句話是什麼?我跟高軍委員說,你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務,你的全國人民不只有原住民。"},{"start":24839.557,"end":24863.689,"text":"請要聽懂這一句話但是您可能忘了,高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲為全國人民服務,甚至為人民服務應該是大家一起來做的事情也很重要的是您擔任行政院長應有的工作我也必須把人民擺在第一啊我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看"},{"start":24867.811,"end":24882.442,"text":"是不是我必須這樣來做每個委員都有他的選區也都有他的支持者他的族群他可以從他的利益出發但必須衡量到全國的橫平性如果一個領域一個族群"},{"start":24884.418,"end":24904.455,"text":"委員長,許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列。我想這是行政院很重要的專業。那當然我們知道您在這行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編組"},{"start":24907.037,"end":24925.057,"text":"你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足,這點我更是反對,但是這個是編列的專業。我想在這邊,最重要的一件事情是您看待這件事情的心態,還有原住民堅持的核心價值。"},{"start":24926.118,"end":24933.243,"text":"只要請委員看一下憲法70條,立法院對行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。"},{"start":24956.799,"end":24985.641,"text":"謝謝院長謝謝請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話我已經公開說明了好那接下來我們請文化部理部長麻煩請文化部長備選好部長謝謝您好院長部長接下來本席想請問一下部長你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館您所了解的人權博物館"},{"start":24987.253,"end":25014.899,"text":"我所了解的人權博物館,原來它是一個在景美的一個看守所,那後來把它改建成人權園區,然後保留了所有當時的狀態,然後裡面也...謝謝部長,那您有去看過嗎?您有去過人權博物館嗎?我不但有去,我還帶學生去做田野調查,然後請他們...好的,謝謝,那你應該知道本席接下來要講的東西,那麼人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要一個機構,您認同嗎?"},{"start":25017.476,"end":25036.086,"text":"所以在人權博物館,理應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題。但是我們常看到的,如果您也常去,大部分的策展,本席所看到的,都是集中在白色恐怖時期,對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。"},{"start":25037.126,"end":25064.248,"text":"根據國家人權博物館的組織法博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展所以我們來看一下這個數據這是人權博物館的數據在策展方面其實有點相當失衡33個從你們開館到現在的展覽有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題佔比已經大約快70%了那個時期的壓迫和不公"},{"start":25065.826,"end":25092.959,"text":"當然是重要的,但是在日治時期對原住民族、敏克族群殖民式的壓迫,那麼以日本人對原住民還有敏克的壓迫為例,五年李凡計劃所造成的歷史傷痛,也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中,79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關,佔比已經差不多70%了。"},{"start":25094.219,"end":25109.379,"text":"所以在這個展示當中是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候長期存在了偏見難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢另外在不義遺址"},{"start":25110.04,"end":25137.793,"text":"的定義上也犯了一樣的錯誤考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗甚至現在可能都也有我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤這樣子的展示不僅是會喪失歷史的全面性而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史"},{"start":25138.752,"end":25154.401,"text":"我期待這樣一個展示在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討將不同的時期不同的階段並用不同的視角多重的視角來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史"},{"start":25155.828,"end":25163.634,"text":"我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤。所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應,我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作,讓轉型正義的目的,是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解。"},{"start":25181.84,"end":25194.058,"text":"因為許多研究顯示,現階段,許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高。 民眾不信任促轉會,民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助。"},{"start":25195.134,"end":25215.587,"text":"民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群"},{"start":25219.49,"end":25236.779,"text":"我希望我們人權博物館跳脫您剛才講的那個問題,可以盡到所有的人權,但是白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群,白色恐怖被壓迫的是各種族群。所以接下來我們來探討一個問題,因為院長就沒機會講話了,但是我們來探討一個問題,您每次講話都讓我非常的感動,"},{"start":25241.641,"end":25258.589,"text":"但是我所看到您的作為都讓我非常的疑問來5月22號在我們的教育文化委員會當時您剛上任中正紀念壇轉型有許多委員提出了問題所以您說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上"},{"start":25259.669,"end":25278.12,"text":"當時有人問到你有關於一對的在堂體跟戶外。 您說到一對不應該是政權轉換的工具。 您當時也在徵求各界來對未來的想像有所討論。 但是讓我很難理解的是一個月後您的態度突然轉變。 突然間"},{"start":25281.701,"end":25302.236,"text":"一、對就被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。那我不知道在這個過程當中包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論,所以您當時講的話其實讓我非常感動,非常的人性化,但是您做的,我們看到的這個回應,實時的作為是讓我們非常疑問。"},{"start":25304.833,"end":25331.081,"text":"總政紀念堂的轉席一對一出堂體有全民共識嗎?為什麼您的態度在這麼短期間就轉變了?這樣的轉變有基於充分的討論嗎?還是有其他政治性的考量?所以這個部分本席提醒您在您剛才講人權博物館的未來的同時希望您能夠言行合一最後我們還是探討一個文化政策的議題"},{"start":25333.288,"end":25360.755,"text":"臺灣臺語政策我想您應該知道這個政策一推出引發了不小反彈在上週的內政委員會您知道多少委員針對這個定義還有這個議題提出了很多看法好幾位委員質疑臺灣臺語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義這個名詞有沒有侵犯其他語言的地位不知道您有沒有注意到上週是次長"},{"start":25362.854,"end":25378.775,"text":"來這個會議當中,次長回應說,臺灣臺語是國家語言之一,地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬族語、臺灣手語等一樣,並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思,那麼很加會次長,但問題是,"},{"start":25380.655,"end":25403.674,"text":"從其他族群的角度來看,這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎?定定國家語言政策的初衷,如您所講的,本來就是要傳承跟保護濱維或者是台灣多元的語言文化,但是台灣台語的推動,您真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎?為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前,您最近在舉辦10月13日剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的11場論文時,"},{"start":25410.319,"end":25417.465,"text":"文化部就直接關上了臺灣、臺語這個名詞,形成了全民共識了嗎?"},{"start":25417.465,"end":25419.127,"text":"這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?"},{"start":25431.701,"end":25431.941,"text":"文化部"},{"start":25457.878,"end":25484.883,"text":"您可以讓各族群再充分討論,再推動這個政策嗎?部長,臺灣台語政策的推動必須要在全民共識上,不能忽略其他族群的感受,包括本席作為一個原住民。政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策,避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席提醒文化,"},{"start":25485.973,"end":25511.845,"text":"院長,只有在沒有包容的文化政策上,會是另外一種壓迫。謝謝。謝謝林倩琦委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號吳佩奕委員請質詢。"},{"start":25531.206,"end":25531.347,"text":"主席"},{"start":25543.516,"end":25572.103,"text":"吳委員好 院長好 剛剛因為前面林倩琦委員有提到 台語正名的議題 因為我也是教委會的委員 那這個議題呢在教委會其實經過很多委員充分的討論 以及有相當多的民間團體長期在關心 並非沒有討論 尤其我也是提案人之一 所以我希望教育部還是要來聆聽民間的聲音 因為我們最重要是希望我們國家的多元族群"},{"start":25572.723,"end":25576.746,"text":"臺劇是我們未來的很重要的發展。 院長您就說您休息的時候甚至還看了很多的戲劇。 所以我想人選之人院長您應該看過吧?"},{"start":25596.003,"end":25607.43,"text":"人選之人入圍亞洲內容大獎,其中陳炎飛也拿下亞洲最佳新人獎。 現在我們正在上映的小燕和吳愛麗拿到了韓國釜山國慶電影節評審團大獎。"},{"start":25611.833,"end":25629.635,"text":"臨遠部長對媒體說,現在正是臺灣電影的最好時機。 所以我想這都是很多人,很多年我們政府給予臺灣的影視,也就是我們現在講的臺流,很多的支持所展現的成果。"},{"start":25630.436,"end":25655.736,"text":"但是除了影視之外音樂尤其是臺灣的流行音樂文化我想這也是我們臺灣非常非常強有潛力的產業尤其除了產業以外像我自己我個人從小學開始我們就喜歡聽流行音樂其實這個音樂的內涵對於我們的人格養成對於我們的思想思考甚至個性我想都有很大的影響所以我認為我們政府絕對"},{"start":25657.318,"end":25679.107,"text":"有必要也有責任來支持我們本土音樂的產業。 那我們看到在我們臺灣的音樂發展當中其中嘻哈音樂正在崛起當中我們臺灣有非常多很有潛力的嘻哈歌手甚至舉一個例子像熊仔熊信寬我們以前他臺大應該算是我學弟"},{"start":25679.887,"end":25695.354,"text":"他在我們的金曲獎當中是在各個類型的音樂當中脫穎而出拿下了金曲獎最佳華語專輯這是一個很高的殊榮肯定那像我們賴清德總統就職的時候"},{"start":25695.754,"end":25716.104,"text":"也找來了客家歌手王宗維、台語歌手柯瀟來演出過去總統府的音樂會,曾經也邀請過阿夸麵。 院長、部長、我想你們應該都認識阿夸麵,他就是在臺灣自製的嘻哈選秀節目大嘻哈時代第二季脫穎而出的冠軍。"},{"start":25717.265,"end":25725.86,"text":"所以說用嘻哈這個音樂的類型來唱出我們臺灣本土的故事或者是歌手個人的思想"},{"start":25726.874,"end":25753.193,"text":"的發揮這個已經是展現出非常大的才華那我作為一個大嘻哈時代的粉絲其實因為我們在IG上面看到說第三季即將也要再上映了所以呢我也希望說我們的院長是不是可以跟我一起來努力我們一起來承諾說我們政府要可以給臺灣的流行音樂產業更強力的支持"},{"start":25754.915,"end":25772.293,"text":"謝謝委員我真的應該跟委員多多學習因為我們這個年紀我們的旋律的能力都比不上這個節拍啦所以我們要努力去學習這麼快的變速而且他的很多在唱的過程當中語言的表達能力非常非常的強"},{"start":25772.893,"end":25775.337,"text":"前幾天在高雄打狗雞,滅火器主唱楊大正跟歌迷分享一段對話。"},{"start":25787.955,"end":25811.387,"text":"他就說因為現在臺灣有些歌手如果要進入中國市場的話必須要有些政治表態那很多歌迷可能因此就很傷心那大陣就跟歌迷說如果你很傷心你可以選擇離開但你不要出征那臺灣路線不是一條好走的路所以我不能要求每一個歌手藝人都要走這條路"},{"start":25812.688,"end":25833.244,"text":"但是呢,作為歌迷傷心可以離開,作為政府,我想我們不能離開。臺灣路線當然不是一條好走的路,我們政府有責任,把這條路鋪得更加的安穩。我非常的希望,說院長能夠承諾,我們能夠給臺灣的音樂產業更多的支持,好不好?"},{"start":25836.512,"end":25855.371,"text":"大嘻哈時代在參加軍中獎的時候我當時是評審我也給他最佳音樂獎跟創新獎大嘻哈時代所帶領的新的這些選手給我一個很大的震撼就是臺灣要發展出自己的音樂嘻哈是一個非常好的"},{"start":25856.509,"end":25856.529,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":25882.199,"end":25905.639,"text":"我在這裡跟委員保證,除了大嘻哈時代這種節目之外,我們會繼續努力推出一些音樂劇,甚至於到國際上去辦這種音樂劇,把這個大嘻哈這種東西成為我們台灣音樂的一個特色。是,這個在大聲對歌迷的呼籲當中,其中關鍵,我想院長也很清楚,就在於市場。"},{"start":25906.63,"end":25909.112,"text":"有,是我們做的研究,像馬來西亞它的定期會有嘻哈的那個表演,我們會尋找"},{"start":25935.471,"end":25938.933,"text":"文化也是我們新南向政策非常重要的一環,是不是可以請院長來大力支持?"},{"start":25954.192,"end":25969.771,"text":"好的,謝謝,跟委員學習,一起來。好,謝謝,請部長請回。接下來我想請教院長的是,我們現在新推出,農業部跟教育部,斑斑有限耐政策。我先說,我個人認為,上路太倉促,以及沒有提出配套。"},{"start":25970.532,"end":25987.252,"text":"那當初叫做斑斑有鮮奶,現在實際上以台北市來說,因為各校要勾選一院嘛,有九成的學校都選擇保久乳,所以目前現況是叫做斑斑保久乳。那我想不知道院長有沒有相關的了解,我們是不是可以做得更周全一點?"},{"start":25987.981,"end":26016.607,"text":"沒有錯,在提供給地方政府跟學校來選擇的過程當中,現在有75%都選擇了飽酒乳。事實上它也可以適度的增加學童在鈣吸收方面的營養,但是我覺得我完全贊成委員所說的,在推出的時候可能私率上還有所欠缺。所以我們這一次是訂了三個月的短約,到今年年底。那明年的我已經速度要求農業部跟教育部都要從長計議。"},{"start":26018.308,"end":26038.571,"text":"要設計一個完全可行不要增加學校負擔而且地方政府也能夠配合同時運送過程當中也能保證他的安全進到教室裡面去不增加教職人員跟學生太多負擔的狀況底下我們才可以實施那至於說目前已經在契約當中的"},{"start":26039.412,"end":26056.838,"text":"我還是可以檢討啦,我覺得我的用意可能在於說,如果學校真的有困難,地方政府也沒有辦法有強力的配合的話,那是不是我們不要太強制,但是已經在上路的這些學校,我們還是盡量的保持最好的狀況來提供給他們。"},{"start":26058.058,"end":26084.817,"text":"那當中還有沒有什麼可以補救的措施希望教育部能夠提出但是這個時間非常有限因為只有剩下兩個多月的時間做那個補救可能時間上都很緩所以應該是兩個一個是已經上路的持續的往更好的方向去走但是有困難的有質疑的有能力還沒有辦法搭配上來的那我們不要做任何的強制但這樣可能對小朋友的選擇來看會有一些失落但是我們明年從長計一來做處理"},{"start":26086.525,"end":26112.788,"text":"是,為什麼一定要在這個總統選舉的時候提出來呢?因為我想我們絕對是有能力做更周旋的考慮,因為我覺得你們做得好,我們一定給肯定,但是該檢討我們還是要正式問題來檢討,像過去,因為我在過去是市議員嘛,這個院長知道,我們長期在關心教育,我在教委會,像我們的營養午餐,學校辦理有很嚴謹的程序,光是那個標準的SOP,"},{"start":26113.228,"end":26131.307,"text":"有16項然後呢每一項要簽超過那個表格確認的要超過30個所以你包括你的驗收配送衛生管理等等相關的一定都是經過考慮的所以我想教育部是非常的有經驗過去我們都在推動國產履歷實材三章一出的時候"},{"start":26131.727,"end":26134.068,"text":"現在的要求是明年度的新的實施如果沒有像做到剛剛委員所說的"},{"start":26155.313,"end":26165.445,"text":"地方政府學校透過團善或透過更好的機制能夠讓他保存和安全送到班上去的話那明年這個我也不會貿然來同意實施"},{"start":26165.947,"end":26188.302,"text":"好,謝謝院長,接下來要討論也是教育的問題,是老舊校舍的改建,因為行政院過去是有專案的預算在支持的,但是今年我目前看來是只有一般補助款,那過去我在議會我都在教文會,所以我們每一年審預算的時候,我們是一間一間學校的預算在審,這院長非常了解。"},{"start":26189.002,"end":26208.674,"text":"所以我們目前臺北市的現況來說10年以內臺北市超過50年的老舊校舍就會超過5成也就是過半喔也就是說我們臺北市有一半以上的孩子在10年之內假設我們現在不開始改建的話他們會在50年以上的老舊校舍當中學習"},{"start":26209.654,"end":26209.794,"text":"一臺14到118"},{"start":26236.022,"end":26251.559,"text":"是,那這個計畫未來是不是要送到由行政院來核定呢?是,那我們已經在作業當中了嗎?這個是114年到117年?是,沒錯,就是明年度。那之前我們98到111,"},{"start":26255.066,"end":26260.009,"text":"三百五十億的老舊校舍改建計劃全國邀請用,那這個預算行政院合定了,接下來這是不是要送到立法院來審查?"},{"start":26281.598,"end":26284.601,"text":"二十年以後,臺北市有八成五以上的孩子都要生活在"},{"start":26303.619,"end":26303.639,"text":"三、5、6、7、8、9、10"},{"start":26324.432,"end":26351.735,"text":"那這個細則我看了一下9月出來的細則裡面就包含了行人友善區行人優先區目的就是因為外媒曾經說我們台北市是行人地獄那一張照片就學童走在很危險的這個道路上是在我們台北市松山區所以我一直非常的關注那我們最近出來的細則行人友善優先區我覺得非常的好所以我收到很多家長打電話來說期待是不是可以從學校周遭先開始來實施"},{"start":26353.436,"end":26364.966,"text":"可是因為細則出來到現在不到一個月我只看到細則還沒有看到預算所以我想要請問一下院長因為他法規的主管機關不是教育部這個未來我們預算會怎麼來處理呢"},{"start":26366.482,"end":26383.188,"text":"我們在520之後就制定了這個永續提升人行的安全計畫,其中針對學校周遭的這個校路口,我們預計在年底之前改善200個學校來做目標,那目前已經改善了49處。"},{"start":26384.648,"end":26398.7,"text":"那未來我們會希望在所以還有兩個多月當中盡量 這個危險路口改善的預算計劃非常重要我看到因為我們台北市已經爭取好多但是行人友善區行人優先區他是另外一個計劃這個要拜託院長好不好 799的路口現在已經改善了435處"},{"start":26402.924,"end":26405.365,"text":"這些相關的數字可以在我們道安總動員的儀表板上面都會呈現出來"},{"start":26425.188,"end":26447.854,"text":"好那最後一件事情呢也是希望要請院長來幫忙是臺灣的太空自主因為我們兩年前其實我們曾經有成功發射自製的科研火箭那當時賴清德總統那時候還是副總統他臉書有發文說哇這歷史性的一刻那我們現在臺灣的太空自主我們要持續的來發展我們非常的希望我們能夠拼臺灣的"},{"start":26470.575,"end":26496.642,"text":"好,謝謝吳佩儀委員﹖謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢﹖謝謝接下來登記第12號﹖第13號﹖羅美玲委員及黃潔委員之質詢均以書面提出﹖請行政院書面答覆﹖並列入紀錄刊登公報﹖再接下來我們請登記第14號﹖張雅玲委員請質詢"},{"start":26509.117,"end":26522.89,"text":"主席,我可以先試一下投影筆嗎?因為上次質詢的時候對不準,因此跳不出來。好,可以,謝謝。謝謝,那我們有請卓院長跟教育部長。麻煩請卓院長、教育部長備選。三委員好。"},{"start":26535.043,"end":26551.633,"text":"院長好部長好那其實因為我想在巴黎奧運的時候我們曾經奪贏這次臺灣的選手表現非常右翼讓我們所有臺灣的同胞臺灣的人民都感覺到非常的振奮那我們也看到說行政院後來也啟動了一系列的一些計畫那同時因為在這次的"},{"start":26552.773,"end":26577.273,"text":"這次的計劃其實也有討論到一些黃金計劃是不是要再怎麼樣優化所以我這邊有一些想要提醒的部分第一個部分就是說我們目前的補助雖然是得到金牌第一級最高級是1500萬但是其實我們也非常清楚的知道網球或是高爾夫球它的費用相對是比較高的所以其實每個項目所需要的經費即便是第一級"},{"start":26577.773,"end":26578.273,"text":"委員長的看法如何?"},{"start":26598.755,"end":26622.986,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心,確實因為不同的這些運動項目,他所要投注的時間跟這個場域還有許多的,因為這個項目本身他的一個許多的經費的投入確實是有差別的。我想這個部分我們怎麼樣來適度的去考量各個不同的運動項目,我想這是我們要來努力的。"},{"start":26623.266,"end":26642.733,"text":"好,因為其實這個訓練項目,因為其實像參賽術好了,像網球一年有30幾場比賽,那有些可能桌球、羽球一年只有十幾、二十場這樣,所以這個場次其實就對它的訓練費、出國參賽費用差異呈現一個非常大的,所以非常感謝部長願意一起來調整。那下一個部分,就是說其實也有選手跟我們反映,"},{"start":26643.553,"end":26655.04,"text":"說他就算是拿到了1500萬的話,舉例來說他如果覺得自己是頂尖的選手,他需要的培練員可能是一個月4.5萬,可是因為我們現在這個經費是每次都還要去申請,"},{"start":26656.649,"end":26678.764,"text":"他申請的時候可能就會核給他兩萬六千塊然後跟他說你可以找本土的選手本土的培練員大學畢業生或是高中碩士畢業生等等的可是對一個頂尖的選手我們可以來想想看這樣子怎麼有辦法配合他來練習呢所以我在想我們這個申請的因為我們大部分的選手其實他就是一個人"},{"start":26679.544,"end":26696.257,"text":"他沒有像國外有這麼完整的一個經紀人的制度那變成說他一邊要忙於訓練忙於比賽還要處理這些行政事務對於選手來說我覺得實在是太曲折了那是不是我們可以來檢討這個流程讓他不要這麼奔波呢"},{"start":26697.506,"end":26700.687,"text":"我想請教院長你認不認同我講的這句話沒有金牌教練就沒有金牌選手有金牌教練一定會出高徒"},{"start":26725.372,"end":26749.239,"text":"對但是有時候沒有狀元老師也會有狀元學生是沒有錯啦但是我想就是教練才是一個非常重要支持選手的一個力量整個過程其實都是非常重要我想院長自己過去也曾經是足球選手教練的陪伴跟支持跟訓練都是非常重要的可是你知道嗎我們的曾志強教練他現在回到基層去"},{"start":26750.279,"end":26758.03,"text":"他現在薪水只變成六萬塊這是我知道之前因為其實我們有開一個公聽會來講這件事情那我也知道教育部其實有在討論"},{"start":26759.844,"end":26785.595,"text":"那我先想順便提醒一件事情就是說除了我們這些如何我們如何我們這薪資要如何去做調整來吸引更多好的選手或是教練願意留在基層幫我們培養更多優秀的運動員畢竟我們講的是全民運動嘛對不對他要有全民運動才會有競技運動嘛那可是院長你幫我看一下我紅色框出來的這三個數字哪一個是高級教練哪一個是中級教練哪一個是初級教練的薪資呢"},{"start":26789.133,"end":26790.354,"text":"這三個薪資總額跟家籍都一模一樣"},{"start":26800.691,"end":26826.386,"text":"我們的高級、中級跟初級的教練加給薪資都一模一樣的時候我覺得他就有一個很大的問題我們如何 這個教練他要前進的動力就會下降嘛 對不對因為我不管怎麼樣反而等著都是年資的累積我薪資才會成長嘛所以我也想了解說我們其實我知道也都有在討論那現在目前的一個進度跟規劃是什麼呢會去做調整嗎 在這個部分"},{"start":26828.719,"end":26855.429,"text":"我跟委員報告剛剛委員提到這麼多的問題我比較一個理想性的想法我們之所以要把一個全新的運動部出來我就希望說他能夠納進更多的現役選手跟教練甚至裁判我們首先把他請他擔任我們的諮詢小組的委員希望能夠用更貼近現在整個運動界大家正在執行的一些目前的策略跟目前的政策"},{"start":26856.63,"end":26865.844,"text":"讓更貼近選手跟教練之所需要我們希望未來的新的運動部能夠朝向這樣去走那才是一個所謂真正全新的運動部"},{"start":26866.596,"end":26892.687,"text":"瞭解,我也知道其實大家就是院長跟所有的部會其實都有非常積極的在處理這些相關的細節那我今天提出來這幾個問題也希望在內部一併的來討論一併的來思考那再來我想給院長看一個我覺得蠻重要的事情前面也有委員提到體育賽事的一個運動統戰但是這個運動統戰並不是只有在賽事等級已經是在國中小階段"},{"start":26893.607,"end":26894.428,"text":"臺灣籍教育委員"},{"start":26924.127,"end":26924.487,"text":"根委員 確實我們這一個"},{"start":26944.483,"end":26968.312,"text":"會有在不同的一個時段裡面就會聽到有這個許多兩岸的這些運動的交流會有一些我目期待我想我想因為時間比較有限我想提醒一下因為我想可能大家並沒有注意到這一端的部分那如果有也非常好那如果沒有的話我們現在必須開始來關注這一面因為我發現"},{"start":26969.492,"end":26992.325,"text":"教練他們會彼此通知彼此,因為費用全免嘛,語言相通,行政又很有,就可以幫,他們又會處理所有行政事務,對教練來說是一個好康到最棒。那其實有家長跟我反應,他說其實我也不希望我小孩去,可是我也不知道我可以去哪裡,我還有什麼選擇,那為了小孩好,教練這麼說,他也就配合了。"},{"start":26993.646,"end":27012.242,"text":"那其實我們現在有一個兩岸體育交流規範可是這是教育部下面體育署的一個規範而是你看它上面有寫說不得組隊前往大陸地區參加其指稱之全國性體育運動如果有競速告知本署依法處理那我想我們現在我是找不到任何可以處理的方法"},{"start":27013.547,"end":27025.626,"text":"我想可能這一塊我們必須要盡快的補強,因為如果他還是拿我們一些相關的補助經費的話,平常訓練有拿一些補助經費的話,我們必須應該要做一些,盡快的做一些事情。"},{"start":27027.13,"end":27052.818,"text":"那這個呢,這個就是我剛剛講的,其實他們就覺得這個,因為中國這個全包的這個服務對他們來說非常非常方便。那我們其實就有跟他們討論說,那新南向計畫你們的想法是什麼?那教練就有講,其實新南向計畫並不是所有的品項在新南向國家都是好的,這是第一個。那如果像是足球啦,他們當然可以去到泰國啊,"},{"start":27053.078,"end":27053.318,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":27075.802,"end":27099.119,"text":"雖然我知道我們有非常多的學校對我來這個申請可是我覺得我們也必須要來考慮就是說除了我們剛剛講制定相關的法則我們也應該要研議喔新南下國家是可以有不同的補助額度這樣才能夠增加他們往南邊走嘛去我們想要他們去的地方嘛那同時呢第三個就是說我們是不是可以建立一個國際交流的平台公開一地訓練的相關聯繫資訊"},{"start":27101.601,"end":27118.888,"text":"因為其實有很多家長告訴我啦,其實為了他們也沒有希望政府來補他錢,可是你至少讓我知道我可以去哪裡,對,那我們就可以去選擇那些方向去。像我也知道台灣有非常多的日本足球隊,他們這幾年都去了日本,那這部分是不是可以,我們可以趕快來補強,趕快來處理呢,院長?"},{"start":27121.304,"end":27150.156,"text":"是的,透過中性的活動來達到特定目的的文化的入侵,這是一直存在的。政府的責任在於告訴國人必須要有這樣的戒心,同時給國人知道我們有提供一些比較正確正當的管道,可以讓大家去從事必要的活動。我想這個將來我們在這個地點的選擇,合作的對象,甚至經費的補助各方面,我們朝這個方向來努力。"},{"start":27150.816,"end":27164.448,"text":"對,尤其我是希望說這個就是因為我們現在的這個兩岸運動交流體育交流規範條規範其實相對來說是沒有任何的處置啦這個可能也需要盡快來思考如何來補強那再來就是剛剛院長其實有講到我們如何讓我們的"},{"start":27167.29,"end":27193.209,"text":"民眾有意識有意識這件事情非常重要因為昨天我們的蔡英文總統也去捷克在這個論壇裡面她特別強調了民主是臺灣不可妥協的一部分我們要透過全社會的努力與志同道合的盟友進行安全的合作我們還是臺灣的公民社會都會自發性的來捍衛臺灣來之不易的民主所以我也就認為我們今天我們"},{"start":27193.869,"end":27215.586,"text":"的很多的教練他可能做這個選擇第一個部分當然費用的確是一個部分行政院的確是一個部分但是呢是不是讓我們的小孩子呢可以有一個更確立的一個本土史讓他建立一個所謂對威權識別的一個敏感度對他來說他去的時候也還可以去感覺到這個好像有點問題所以"},{"start":27217.668,"end":27245.314,"text":"我們現在其實是有做一些教育部其實也做了一些走讀活動對老師做的成果也不錯但是我只是在想我們都要等老師有意識了再來做這個研習然後再回去設計教案再讓小孩子來上課我覺得這個速度有點慢面對我們現在統戰這麼無網不路的一個狀態之下我覺得我們速度要加快所以呢"},{"start":27246.494,"end":27265.796,"text":"我想就是因為我們也上個會期行政院也提出了一個不義遺址的條例嘛那不義遺址最重要就是活化這件事情那我就在想啊我們是不是呢因為他遍及北中南嘛我們是不是可以編列相關的校外教學的預算帶著孩子去到這些地方聽他們說故事"},{"start":27266.397,"end":27284.518,"text":"看這邊發生了什麼事情因為我剛好這次去聯合國的這個世導團的時候我也去拜訪了紐約轉型正義中心的總部他們跟我說帶著孩子去看這邊發生什麼事聽到那邊人說的話那個效果是最好的所以我們是不是可以往這個方向來努力呢"},{"start":27286.311,"end":27312.322,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個方向是我們現在在努力的而且我們也確實也鼓勵各個學校中小學在戶外的一個教學裡邊能夠把相關的像人權博物館或者這些不遺遺址的這些都納入一個學習的一個場域我想本土教育的一個本土台灣主體性的一些教育我想這是我們"},{"start":27314.369,"end":27340.066,"text":"教育重點在人才培育裡面我想我們會很努力因為其實台灣這些遍佈各地的這一些不易移植其實相對當地也都有一些文化團體在地的團體在做相關的文史我們是不是可以就是說補助一些有一些相關的補助可以讓學校去申請或是讓這些團體去申請然後讓學校都可以往這個地方免費的去就像故宮有一些計畫就是我們可以讓大家來"},{"start":27340.947,"end":27343.911,"text":"謝謝委員,確實我們事實上是有編這個在國教署相關的一些還有教育部相關的一些經會裡面是有這樣的一個經會在補助的。"},{"start":27359.618,"end":27383.301,"text":"現在比較是補助給老師、學生比較少就民間的一些NGO團體他對一些相關的地方文史文化我們也會鼓勵他來怎麼樣再跟這個學校跟地方來補助包括地方他怎麼樣去做許多的這個在地的文史的一個工作的發展我想我們這個部分會跟這個文化部來做更密切的一些合作"},{"start":27383.868,"end":27398.707,"text":"好,因為我還是希望就是說,因為其實在台北好了,他們都會有就是說你可以免費去兒童心得園一次,每個學校都有一次,或是有一些像故宮等等的,那其實這就會讓老師在校外教學要安排的時候,他就會先排那個地點。"},{"start":27399.939,"end":27428.701,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分我們是不是可以再約個時間來詳細的討論如何吸引大家那我就想請教院長這是你上班的地方嘛對不對是那這也是一個不義遺址嘛對不對今年掛牌上掛牌成為一個不義遺址嘛那我就想說因為其實我們現在禮拜五早上都有一個導覽但是也有民眾跟我反映在這個導覽過程之中並沒有講到雖然講稿好像是有寫但是他在導覽的過程之中是沒有講到這是一個不義遺址"},{"start":27430.117,"end":27431.858,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員的資訊謝謝卓院長及相關首長的對詢接下來"},{"start":27460.694,"end":27465.074,"text":"我們請登記第15號李坤城委員質詢"},{"start":27487.192,"end":27494.379,"text":"謝謝院長。我們請卓院長還有我們的政部長。麻煩請卓院長、教育部長開始備詢。李委員好。院長好、部長好。辛苦了。今天我應該是最後一位質詢。"},{"start":27508.123,"end":27509.143,"text":"主要毒品之外還有嗎?"},{"start":27541.213,"end":27562.479,"text":"另外可能是一些霸凌事件是 這個霸凌的事件然後你剛才院長有提到就是說這一個藥物濫用毒品的問題然後我把這個吸菸人口增加我會把它納進去那當然還有很多問題那我今天就這三個問題來就教院長還有部長那根據這個林傳媒他們在9月份做了一個民調"},{"start":27563.539,"end":27589.36,"text":"在國小階段關於校園安全還有校園霸凌的問題這個是大家所關心的排名是第二名高達六成左右的民眾來關心但是到了這個國高中階段的話呢校園安全還有校園霸凌這個排位在第一名表示說到了這個國高中階段大家對於校園霸凌是非常的重視這是一般民眾的一些問卷看法然後還有呢臺灣兒童權利公約聯盟"},{"start":27591.081,"end":27617.146,"text":"在10月初有做了一個調查,它是針對將近3800位的這個小六的學童所做了一個霸凌的一個調查。然後其中有36.4%的兒童有被霸凌的經驗,46.1%有霸凌的經驗。然後有兩成的這個小六的兒童是有被霸凌,但是也有霸凌其他人,就是受害者但同時也是加害者。"},{"start":27617.666,"end":27635.385,"text":"這是特別針對小六的兒童的一個調查好那我就是要來問這個院長跟部長這個在我們教育部有一個校園霸凌通報還有這個確認的這一個案件的這個統計表那我來看的話呢通報數是越來越多"},{"start":27636.446,"end":27656.735,"text":"但是確認率是越來越低,從30%降到11.4%,我們當然不希望說有冤案,但是成案率低,也會造成通報意願低,形成霸凌的黑數,這些都會變成後來霸凌的悲劇。我隨便舉幾個例子,就最近的例子。"},{"start":27657.591,"end":27686.434,"text":"就是有通報但確認率很低的在今年的1月份有台北市某國小是一個學生涉及長期的霸凌但是他後來被學校列為當選模範生而且還上台接受表揚然後議員就質疑說校方的通報失靈然後在8月份在新北市某個國小的學生也是用巴掌霸凌同學但是這個孩子已經要生"},{"start":27687.352,"end":27702.108,"text":"我中了,那家長還沒有收到調查的結果啦,那兩張沙灑我舉這兩個例子,所以我就要請教一下,院長,這為什麼這個通報數會越來越高,但是呢確認率是越來越低,這問題是出在哪裡呢?"},{"start":27703.308,"end":27718.774,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這個必須要很真實的去檢討跟反應 我一向主張政府所有的資訊應該正確而公開 讓大家能夠來了解這個事實提供更多的意見 我們才能做有效的管控 這兩個案件都發生在不久的之前"},{"start":27720.214,"end":27734.685,"text":"地方政府的教育單位應該要有一個很完整的說明,也應該用這個來告訴所有的人。 其中我舉兩個案子,那我只是要來說明就是說那為什麼我們這一個通報率這麼高,確認率會這麼低,到底問題是出在哪裡?我不是講個案,我是講整體的一個現象。"},{"start":27739.037,"end":27766.035,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們就是擔心說校園有一些這個霸凌的行為被遮掩也就是形成黑素所以我們鼓勵這一個老師這一個教育人員只要有學生之間彼此的一些可能的一些言語或者肢體或者網路或者可能疑似的全部都一定要通報沒有通報的話他事實上是會受到這個懲處的"},{"start":27767.256,"end":27782.799,"text":"那也因為這樣大概就是說只要有這一個儀式他全部大大小小全部可能同學之間的一些玩戲上所以他這個通報數就增加了我們本來就是希望不要這一個"},{"start":27783.2,"end":27790.402,"text":"通報以後他會學校會有一個一定的一個審查的一個機制所以這一個審查機制就會按照這一個我們所定義的這些霸凌的一些行為裡面做一個比較詳細的一個這樣一個審查所以這一個"},{"start":27808.987,"end":27824.394,"text":"這一個通報數多然後到時候確認的是比較少我想這也是一個可能在校園裡邊因為我們在鼓勵老師在不要讓任何一個學生提醒院長跟部長就是說你的2021的這個確認率到172022年到11這個數字降得太快"},{"start":27830.537,"end":27833.418,"text":"學生輔導法修正法案也送到立法院來,也正在審查。"},{"start":27853.943,"end":27857.545,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案"},{"start":27872.877,"end":27885.973,"text":"有這個背景的年輕人不願意來學校當老師或是說當了老師不願意去處理這些問題像很多的學校裡面現在當導師的都是代理老師"},{"start":27886.954,"end":27887.674,"text":"文明報告確實這一點我們也"},{"start":27910.802,"end":27934.74,"text":"在這個跟地方在希望能夠透過一個大家的一個溝通協調能夠讓這一個減少這個代理老師為什麼因為地方考慮到許多的因素包括這個少子女化這個學生人口他們預估了他這個未來所以在許多的教師銀額他並沒有真正的把它釋放出來每年去"},{"start":27935.2,"end":27935.981,"text":"第二、吸菸人口增加"},{"start":27959.859,"end":27970.191,"text":"這次按照國建署的這個資料,110年的這個資料,國中生吸菸是2.2%,然後到了高中值的話上升到7.2%,這是止菸。 電子菸的這個使用率提高了,在107年的時候國中生是1.9%,到110年上升到3.9%。"},{"start":27978.24,"end":27998.962,"text":"然後高中生呢?高中職生呢?從3.4%上升到8.8%這是電子菸所以你看子菸好像沒什麼增加但是電子菸增加了很多電子菸增加了很多有一個問題就是說它很容易取得電子菸很容易取得那你知道院長這個電子菸我們是不能在網路上販賣的"},{"start":28000.624,"end":28027.637,"text":"但是呢現在你在網路上要買電子煙相當相當的容易按照這個國建署在今年1月份發布的資料是去年底他總共開出了3343萬的罰單那這應該都是這個平台上面的賣家或是個人去罰他們的然後呢集中在三個平台這個Facebook、IG、露天拍賣等等我認為院長要注意一下"},{"start":28028.857,"end":28051.623,"text":"這個開出了這個三千多萬的罰單裡面,應該都是罰個人,罰賣家,有沒有罰平台?有沒有?我們過去對平台是沒有辦法,因為它沒有落地就沒有辦法納管。未來我們在新的打詐司法當中,我們要求在台灣的平台,你要落地,要管理,你做廣告就必須真實。是可以罰,嘉義縣它有罰。"},{"start":28052.463,"end":28076.938,"text":"加一線他就罰那個平台,罰了40萬,所以平台不是不能罰,我們打在就是說要求他們落地嘛,要做處理,我是希望說,這個電子煙尤其像剛我提到的這三個主要的平台,大部分都集中在這三個平台,要去注意,就是說不能賣電子煙,那可是罰不到他們啊,我認為就是說,不管是這個"},{"start":28078.059,"end":28103.088,"text":"這當然跟教育部有關係,但這跟速發部有關係。我認為在電子菸容易取得這方面,我認為要嚴加控管。除了這個賣的人之外,平台也要嚴加控管。不是太容易取得啦,你隨便去Google真的很大,電子菸在網路上太多地方可以買了,這是一個非常嚴重的問題。那我從這個電子菸呢,我再延伸到另外一個問題,就是藥物濫用的一個問題,藥物濫用。"},{"start":28106.509,"end":28121.095,"text":"按照教育部今年6月有來立法院做一個報告這個藥物濫用問題在111年國小、國中、高中、大專合計起來是400位到了112年483位有增加今年1到4月報告是151位但是到了8月應該是將近300位了"},{"start":28131.539,"end":28145.352,"text":"那這個呢,藥物濫用的情況呢,我認為是有增加的這個情況。那我去看了一下,國建署他們的一個報告,當然還是以這個三級的毒品為主。那我現在就要提到了,"},{"start":28146.744,"end":28174.433,"text":"這個在年輕人流行的這個電子煙當中呢有一種叫做喪屍煙油那依托彌子那當然呢這個我們行政院在今年的8月呢已經公告正式公告為三級的毒品了那這個之前也造成很多悲劇啦光是在我們新北市三重7月份有一位員警被這個西池這個喪屍煙大人撞死了一位黃姓員警被撞死了"},{"start":28174.994,"end":28201.515,"text":"然後呢9月底也是一樣是在土城的一位所長劉所長在執行的時候他也是被撞死了然後那個撞他的人身上也有說出這個喪屍煙油那他們是這個我們把這個電子煙跟這個喪屍煙油合在一起來講就是說現在很多的這個電子煙的成分裡面可能會有像這個喪屍煙油或是其他的毒品"},{"start":28202.312,"end":28202.652,"text":"這兩個都是違禁的物品"},{"start":28231.498,"end":28257.206,"text":"對,任何的違紀物品,我們都希望透過能夠大力的取締,去發掘它的源頭最重要。剛剛委員所說的,我們如果網路上很容易買到,那就是我們很大的一個破口。很容易買到了,你隨便去Google電子菸。對,但是很大一個破口。那我想警政單位也都知道,那現在我們進一步可以加強,以後不僅是嘉義縣可以去處罰平台。全國依照新的法律,如果我們落地之後,納管之後,"},{"start":28257.586,"end":28284.873,"text":"我們希望能夠加強取締跟管制我們打詐、摘法通過之後就要求剛才講那些數位平台都要落地我們好像是給他到這一個年底的時間我是希望能夠加速因為我們還有19個執法目前正在完成當中完成之後這部大的機器才能夠順暢的來驅動那這個最後再問這一個院長這個剛剛好像有委員問過了就可能沒時間看但是有聽過這一個黑白大廚吧"},{"start":28286.813,"end":28294.138,"text":"黑白大廚裡面有一位晉級的李美英,她是韓國國小營養午餐的廚師,很不容易做營養午餐的廚師能夠到黑白大廚裡面進入到前15強。"},{"start":28307.341,"end":28326.055,"text":"這在台灣不可能發生,因為在台灣的營養午餐不好吃,你不可能做這個餐廚的廚師能夠晉級到這個黑白大廚裡面去,甚至能夠進入到前面。 那我就比較我們跟韓國好了,韓國呢,他們全部都是由政府來出錢。"},{"start":28327.356,"end":28346.265,"text":"社廚房公辦公營當然預算也很高每個孩子每餐的預算高達200塊而且學校廚工也比例很高但是在臺灣有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營不一樣的種類很多最重要的是我們的餐費40到70"},{"start":28350.058,"end":28368.477,"text":"跟韓國比,那韓國是由政府來出錢的,我們平均是55塊,那所以我們在這個人事成本跟食材呢,跟韓國就沒辦法比。我舉這個例子是希望說,教育部其實我們都很關心是不是這個營養午餐法能夠提出來。"},{"start":28371.681,"end":28391.655,"text":"委員部長我們都應該不定時不預告的去吃吃營養午餐我們才能親身感受到委員所說的如何讓他更好你有空我就帶你一起來吃學校的這個營養午餐很多委員有提出類似這個學校共餐法還要營養午餐那我們也希望說"},{"start":28392.776,"end":28401.589,"text":"補人、補專業、永續發展,讓孩子在學校能夠吃得安全、然後吃得開心、吃得健康、吃在地的食材好不好?"},{"start":28426.412,"end":28428.514,"text":"好,謝謝李坤成委員的質詢。謝謝主委院長。部會所長的備詢,謝謝。"},{"start":28446.431,"end":28455.166,"text":"接下來登記第16號王美惠委員之質詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報報言會"},{"start":28457.099,"end":28485.639,"text":"本日排定質詢之委員均已質詢完畢。 謝謝卓院長以及相關列席的部會首長列席答詢。 現做以下之決定。 下次會議我們進行交通組織質詢。 報言會現在我們繼續處理復議案。 本院民進黨黨團針對第三次會議報告事項第9案及第63案之決定提出復議案。 請公決案。 現在我們做以下決定。 令"},{"start":28486.297,"end":28490.93,"text":"定期處理。 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部長不好意思我這邊特地提一個啦你看到我給你的資料這第58項德和國小那邊的受災其實相當相當相當相當嚴重那邊是整塊整個整個大樓基本上已經被土石流淹沒其實這整個預算裡面最貴的是德和國小這邊這邊不好意思基隆市真的浮不出來所以說這邊尤其是這一塊"},{"start":49.005,"end":50.287,"text":"到右邊這張圖昨天才照出來的"},{"start":68.383,"end":85.31,"text":"對,沒辦法,因為這怎麼清呢?這4千,上面已經被寫得很清楚,4千多萬,光這一筆,其他的1千多萬,其他的還可以說慢慢大家基隆市我們大家來,也需要中央補助,可是這一筆,所以我剛剛為什麼講說地下水文的破壞,"},{"start":86.491,"end":110.083,"text":"其實對於基隆市是有潛在致命性的傷害但是我們不可能在沒有災害發生之前直接去做監測這筆費用太貴我很清楚因為我之前問過光一個山頭就要兩三億但是至少發生災害了我們至少把他們的受教權把他們學生的權益把它一起幫他們恢復回來好不好"},{"start":111.431,"end":140.194,"text":"那這個現在學生的上課還是相當...其實這是一棟大樓可是其實總共3到4棟大樓不過一棟大樓已經完全被淹過去現在只能靠剩下的3棟大樓來去支撐如果可以的話甚至說我下次辦會一看請教育部也來安排一下時間相關可以馬上到基隆重要的毀損嚴重的幾個學校看一看能夠適時的急速的這樣幫大家來完成"},{"start":141.035,"end":156.636,"text":"這個我們要列為必要的優先。謝謝委員關心,我想我們會後,我們下午就請國教署馬上同仁這個負責同仁到前往去這個德國小立集這個來勘查,然後請專家看怎麼樣來協助。"},{"start":158.627,"end":188.066,"text":"很多是地方政府也要出來協助他們很樂意他們很樂意這是地方政府主動跟我講說這比太大一般來講風災的整個整個remedy整個所謂的急救款拿不起到八到九百萬這是六千多萬整個加起來針對我只是針對說教育教育部學校方面以前差不多八百萬到九百萬請委員你協助你居間把地方政府請出來教育部來看看地方政府還有多少的災損金可以用那其他的部分"},{"start":189.02,"end":215.7,"text":"應急的部分我們會來處理。好,謝謝。再來其實我要問的這個方針比較嚴格講起來這個也不能講不嚴肅只是我必須請教說院長跟我們的那個政部長因為現在體育署未來要變成體育發展部、運動發展部現在在我們的教育部裡面但是我很好奇就是說"},{"start":216.761,"end":239.897,"text":"到底為什麼要去做這個運動發展部我們的目標到底是什麼因為很實際的我想全國喜歡運動的人都想問這個問題我們這個運動發展部所建立的原因是為了在國際賽事上拿金牌幫我們國人增加榮譽感認同感還是是針對說這個運動產業在台灣已經有可能發展還是"},{"start":244.861,"end":244.981,"text":"議員你剛剛說的齁"},{"start":268.12,"end":292.05,"text":"都是,沒有還是,都是。第一個我要強調,它不是一個升格的問題,它是一個全新的運動部。它裡面最重要的三項精神,第一個就是推展全民運動,第二個是國際競技,第三個是運動產業。當然還有其他啦,我說最重要是三項。那這三項會變成三支柱子,支撐全新的一個運動部。"},{"start":292.912,"end":316.863,"text":"那這個就很尷尬了因為這三個老實講都很難做得到啊因為老實說如果你是要國際賽事的話你要在國際賽事拿名你的經費你要怎麼樣去依註如果說針對我其實有第一個要問因為我自己本身是基隆SBL的領隊那現在籃球的事情老得紛紛擾擾我想請問一下院長跟部長你們自己有從事運動嗎有打運動嗎"},{"start":321.16,"end":326.143,"text":"跟委員報告我大概平常現在因為這個考量這個年紀關係我現在只會打網球大概就是桌球桌球大概是"},{"start":342.361,"end":362.673,"text":"這就是我們現在尷尬的地方就是說我們現在講的很多運動有關這個賽事甚至想要把職業化產業化的賽事那全部都是大型運動都不是one on one請問你知道有乒乓球的世界是有乒乓球的職業選手嗎?國內的?國內有很多好手對啊國內有沒有像職業青雙球的賽事?"},{"start":368.545,"end":370.246,"text":"那就是另外一個問題,請問運動為什麼要提升全民運動?"},{"start":398.65,"end":426.171,"text":"這個是健康?健康的問題嗎?那就糟糕了,因為運動的本質不是只為了健康啊。運動的本質是要有紀律性、團大精神跟其他的。這就是我說我們現在開始...我問你這是一個全新的運動部?院長,我們不是在辯論,我只是在講說,因為我自己打籃球,而且我自己打籃球打得很深。所以說運動發展部這件事情出來的時候,大家看好的人,"},{"start":427.632,"end":451.584,"text":"不容易,尤其是從事運動的人,因為在這個我們這個布出來之後,在這裡面他在演什麼角色,會變得非常重要。我們會全力來支持,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員。好,謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"},{"start":468.187,"end":493.159,"text":"謝謝主席。有請卓院長。來請卓院長備詢。會委員好。院長好。想要請教院長一下,你知道人民會有族群委員嗎?是。你知道?是。"},{"start":495.199,"end":524.204,"text":"好 所以你知道的話只要請教你一下 研民會每年編列2224萬7千元高額預算 僱用16個委員一人每年的薪水高達135萬請教一下研委會的族群委員服務項目是什麼 還有他們的學經歷是什麼 我們院長知不知道"},{"start":525.557,"end":541.362,"text":"朱全偉他應該是代表各個不同的原住民族朋友來這裡討論特別或是整體相關的跟原住民族朋友的權益上的問題。我想這個是一個長年以來的一個組織啊。"},{"start":542.983,"end":566.952,"text":"這個就是不知道啦所以政府用人就是應該不分黨派啦不知道說他們誰經營你講的都是空換的所以特別是針對族群委員族群的平均比較重要不是黨派的問題族群委員裡面一年135萬的高薪擔任的職責標準是什麼"},{"start":568.099,"end":581.17,"text":"還有說還是只有政黨唯一的標準用人嗎?這個部分我們想要知道。我剛剛說過他應該是著重在族群的平均各個族群的照顧,絕對不是政黨的考量。"},{"start":582.782,"end":607.293,"text":"但是呢,我們的原委會的主委在10月9日內政委員會執行的時候詢問回復我們本黨黃國昌委員,承認這份族群委員名單不是他提的。請問院長對此名單有無指示,有哪一些是民進黨拿來酬庸的對象?"},{"start":608.883,"end":619.885,"text":"原民會提來的名單當然要經過內部他們一個標準去審核甚至通過各個族群的推薦所以這個都是標準符合資格"},{"start":620.874,"end":641.859,"text":"中堂順過來之後,我會尊重原民會裡面的調整的名單出來,因為說真的,我一個一個也沒有辦法比原民會的主委或是其他原民會更熟,我真的不能比他更熟。所以問你有沒有指示,還是猶豫的人。我沒有指示,我沒有指示。對,如果是不是族群委員,不是酬庸的工具,到底"},{"start":642.439,"end":663.651,"text":"是幾個委員是由誰提的﹖還有他們的對原住民有什麼貢獻﹖所以請卓院長在一周內可以提供我書面嗎﹖我可以請原民會跟委員說明給我書面回覆好不好﹖我請原民會來回覆委員﹖"},{"start":664.946,"end":681.073,"text":"再來再請教我們院長,因為這個我也是覺得很疑惑,因為在協商又在就是赤河解放,所以我要請教一下為什麼立法院把總預算退回要求行政院"},{"start":681.693,"end":688.135,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":703.476,"end":730.669,"text":"委員我們回憶一下上禮拜我們都吃過一頓午餐你很清楚我沒有聽到你的回應啊都是我的夢我的講我都很注意聽委員的話我們都受你感動我講的話你都沒有聽有你答應我我當然會聽但是針對這一塊是全國的人的注意針對始祖民你對我們的照顧我們很感受到後續的發展我說那一天我們在那個就是啟動一個很好的開始我也很欣慰看到聽到"},{"start":732.19,"end":751.856,"text":"大院最近可能反開朝野協商,所以我也聽到,所以我才再問你一次,那一天我有問,但是我沒有回應。那我希望很多的事情我們放在朝野協商裡面去談。所以我希望,因為我們聽到的是各部會,他說他們就是沒有編,所以我才問,再問一次。"},{"start":753.056,"end":753.176,"text":"委員﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":779.356,"end":779.917,"text":"臨時提案委員：麥玉珍"},{"start":809.336,"end":819.827,"text":"你為了保護大家承擔這樣子的罪名就是不仁不義啊不要把這些錢就是要去編列所以無法讓聯運達成共識最後"},{"start":823.342,"end":849.673,"text":"我害怕最後有沒有可能因為沒有辦法達成兩院的共識就害我們的卓院長為了大家就是負責要下台這都是大家害的因為我們院長想要去做但是各個部會不願意編這樣的話就害了我們的卓院長我沒有不願意編的委員我有編4萬你聽到嗎那天我有想啊我沒有編4萬對不對"},{"start":853.274,"end":881.121,"text":"你沒有總預算回去沒有編,如果有編的話就不用再協商了。我們有編4萬阿,委員我都注意聽你的話你都沒有聽,我們對進華補償有編4萬,本來3萬我們現在有編4萬。如果是院長要編照我們退回的總預算,這樣子的話我們協商就會圓滿。我那天有講說大事化小事,小事化無事,大家圓滿。協商就是我注意聽你的話,你要注意聽我的話。"},{"start":882.041,"end":906.257,"text":"我有編4萬你有聽到嗎所以我們現在就是希望我們大家達成共識啦所以我們再協商再來去討論我明明那天說我編了4萬可是外黨的黃委員說我一毛不編你應該去問他啊為什麼他的聽到話叫做一毛不編啊這顯然是一個錯誤的答覆不要避重就輕好不好"},{"start":907.277,"end":923.451,"text":"問我們的教育部在2020年的時候,因為是教文所以我們先不討論那個,所以網路霸凌通報顯示因為兩岸關係造成就是族群的對立"},{"start":924.231,"end":942.873,"text":"新住民子女在學校也受到歧視和霸凌的案件很多,尤其是我們的陸珮還有就是她的子女,因為受到很大的傷害。大家都,她嫁來台灣了,大家都在罵她說因為兩岸的關係,很多原因就是"},{"start":943.954,"end":968.402,"text":"外乎就是刻板印象導致這樣子的霸凌但是我們的孩子都是我們心目中的寶貝不只是族群的歧視繼續發生還有影響到不是個人還有家庭更影響到社會的問題所以現在呢我們要想要討論一下研議一下如何讓我們的校園減少肢體的衝突還有語言的歧視"},{"start":972.183,"end":972.784,"text":"請部長答覆"},{"start":992.941,"end":1019.795,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個校園霸凌的問題我想怎麼樣提供一個安全友善的校園環境確實是一直學校辦學要努力這一個努力的一個方向是的,但是霸凌一直在增加所以我們才要請教我們要怎麼處理我們現在不僅就是說學校也希望家庭跟社會一起來共同營造一個這樣的一個"},{"start":1020.896,"end":1029.483,"text":"所以就學校的部分我們現在事實上具體的從這個青少年跟高中這個開學開始我們就透過親師座談透過班會讓能夠去讓同學能夠理解不同族群還有許多認識霸凌包含不僅是語言肢體網路霸凌怎麼樣我們要能夠"},{"start":1048.578,"end":1064.3,"text":"所以關於網路霸凌我們每一個人就是從幼稚園就要接觸到3C產品網路非常發達但是學生普遍也是在用社群潑紋所以就造成"},{"start":1065.281,"end":1094.245,"text":"網路也有以原霸凌延伸到網路去尤其是學生所以我們要如何教導學生使用正確的網路還要如何辨識不實的招搖危害學生有的人就是因為他們的人身安全所以沒辦法遭到網路霸凌也有人去自殺這個部分也造成我們的學生身心靈的陰影行政院如果有政策的"},{"start":1094.865,"end":1100.769,"text":"具體的方式解決,這個才是真的,不是只是做做看,這是表面而已,真的沒大到。"},{"start":1114.136,"end":1117.377,"text":"有很多教育部長說有很多但是呢就是宣傳不夠"},{"start":1141.764,"end":1141.945,"text":"我講我們會繼續來努力。"},{"start":1158.107,"end":1179.883,"text":"因為現在要生的孩子沒人沒借,所以要保護比較要緊,所以呢我們希望我們行政院一定要重視霸凌這個議題,因為一直在掙扎,你宣傳不夠,你的預防不夠才會增加,所以讓我們一同來如何去保護我們這群寶貝,這群小孩好不好。"},{"start":1182.865,"end":1205.734,"text":"對,還有就是因為也是延伸就是網路,現在AI交易也是世界的氣勢,對不對,所以也是科技的進步的象徵,所以我們也非常的支持我們就是交易就是要越來越發展,越來比別的國家更好,對不對,但是呢,"},{"start":1206.994,"end":1232.599,"text":"我們台灣的發展AI同時我們也需要注意AI帶來的風險因為我們現在的倫理教育道德教育在我們的學校裡面少於也少所以這個部分我們一定要讓我們小孩了解來去應用這個是我們很注重的所以教育部就是要積極來"},{"start":1234.239,"end":1234.759,"text":"公務委員報告"},{"start":1260.389,"end":1271.135,"text":"規範有沒有明確讓大家更了解。謝謝委員提醒不過確實委員所關心的也是我們現在正在做的一個方向跟委員報告我們在這一學習9月開學前對這個AI怎麼樣使用數位這一個能夠學習"},{"start":1278.2,"end":1280.502,"text":"因為推動AI是很好,但是沒有先行設想學生為了"},{"start":1300.023,"end":1300.043,"text":"謝謝委員,確實..."},{"start":1324.472,"end":1347.566,"text":"教文組織2021年也是在AI倫理的建議書明確指出AI危險存在於越來越多性別及種族的偏見,所以對隱私尊嚴和機構的組織帶來最大的危險,所以如何解決AI來帶來的危險,所以這個部分我們是"},{"start":1349.285,"end":1358.873,"text":"謝謝委員關心 也利用這個機會跟委員報告我們今年9月上路的25個學校大學的AI課程聯盟 有4個學層每個學層5門課 其中有一門就是AI倫理"},{"start":1372.284,"end":1384.639,"text":"很好,所以呢這個方面要多推動,所以我們推動教育之前應該拒絕偏見歧視,防止犯罪,還有提高學習動機等於優先的考量。"},{"start":1407.157,"end":1414.64,"text":"好,謝謝麥委員下一位我們請張家俊委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:22:48 - 10:46:23","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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比如說2個月前在第5屆海峽兩岸青少年的棒球文化節聽起來都很正常的體育活動﹖"},{"start":81.26,"end":104.657,"text":"可是呢我就看到國內辦的主任宋濤利用這樣的一個體育的賽事其實他在談的都是一中原則跟九二共識說強調習近平高度的重視關心台灣的青年歡迎台灣的青年去共築這個中國夢可是我看到昨天這樣的一個軍演這個都是兩面的一個手法可是呢"},{"start":105.772,"end":132.44,"text":"這樣的一個活動體育的活動我們國內其實我們看到縣市首長去了也是強調九二共識反對台獨那比如說上個月福建有一個叫做同名村講名字稱頭就對了叫做村BA人家NBA講名字就叫做村BA籃球邀請賽就利用這個中青文化的情感跟歷史的一個交織進一步也是台南兩岸一家親這看起來很清楚的這個都是一種統戰可是這個"},{"start":134.901,"end":153.559,"text":"本院我們立委也會去拍片,然後去幫忙做這樣的一個背書。 我不曉得我們院長跟部長,你們看到的這一些中國利用體育賽事來當一個統戰的一個工具,這些資訊你們有沒有掌握?那接下來我們面對這樣的情況的話,院長你的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":158.789,"end":169.299,"text":"首先我們當然希望體育運動賽事無國界,讓全世界的好手能夠聚集一堂來互相的切磋比較,但是如果"},{"start":170.706,"end":195.503,"text":"過去到現在以來,參差太多的政治因素,連參加人的服裝、旗歌這樣都要對我們種種限制的話,那就是用一頂大帽子再讓我們穿小鞋,這樣是非常不好的。兩岸之間通常就在這種狀況底下。我實在很希望,如果這些活動真的是誠心誠意為對方著想,對方的年輕人的活動參與,那是非常非常好的。"},{"start":195.723,"end":218.741,"text":"但是通常不是這樣子,我們要有相當大的戒心。我非常贊同院長你所提到,其實哪怕是昨天中共軍演剛結束,你說兩岸之間的,你說體育、文化這些交流,我想不要涉及一些統戰,臺灣的民眾還是可以接受兩邊的這樣的一個交流,但是看到這樣子我很"},{"start":219.401,"end":219.581,"text":"民進黨執政時,運動預算"},{"start":247.455,"end":270.466,"text":"提訴你看2016年79.8億到2022年的時候130億2023年的時候137.6億到2024年超過160億那最近這個組織裡面外界都認為是要升格雖然行政院認為說那是一個全新的跟升格的概念不一樣OK但是我比較擔心的是什麼我比較擔心的是說院長"},{"start":271.306,"end":299.205,"text":"這如果從教育部內的組織或是業務都發開之後我們最擔心的是說體育的部分需要去改革新的一個運動部成立以後必須要去回應外界對整個以後整個運動界的一個一個真正的他們的一個需求那我要救教院長的就是說你去把它看我前幾天去"},{"start":300.396,"end":321.135,"text":"質詢我們人事長,我們體育部組織成立了,緣額到底要怎麼編,以目前教育部本部的緣額是567人,公務預算緣額是1540人,體育署是165。那人事長他是跟我回應就是說,體育署已有限職人員上部區去修訂了中央政府的一個機關總緣額法。"},{"start":323.359,"end":350.148,"text":"站在人事長他的一個立場他一定認為組織看有沒有辦法精簡可是站在你行政院這麼多部會裡面啊像我就看到海巡也好啊我們看到警察人員也好啊我們甚至看到我們的檢察機關也好啊法務部也好啊他們又需要很多人力了那可是我們運動部上來以後我們要必須要去增加他人力的"},{"start":351.271,"end":351.812,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":371.265,"end":392.962,"text":"教育部的體育署不是升格的問題是讓他完全全新的一個體育部所以他除了要全民運動除了要國際競技運動產業之外也會對一些弱勢的一些運動項目我們給他更好的運動空間跟環境這個都會在未來的運動部裡面產生當然人事總署他會希望說緣額精簡"},{"start":395.148,"end":402.112,"text":"所以我們都期待啦我們期待運動部成立以後啊那個整個中央的一個資源很精準的可以下到那個基層我們也可以希望運動部的成立以後"},{"start":422.912,"end":424.413,"text":"另外我要跟院長跟部長來就教就是說,"},{"start":443.187,"end":468.882,"text":"這個議題其實運動部的成立就真的是從這個議題就看得出來有它的必要教育部現在你看你們的彩券就你們管的嘛現在教育部一關彩券很怪怪的啦 人家在拔轎的啦那電競跟你們那一關其實也怪怪的啦所以你們顧一下 成立一個運動部讓它去歸屬也不是壞事我要就照院長跟部長就是說你們兩位平常你們不知道有沒有在關注運動賽事我相信都有 你們剛好買過彩券 運動彩券 運彩"},{"start":471.496,"end":473.582,"text":"我買過一次。 要一間,一組齁,幾塊你知道沒中?"},{"start":473.582,"end":474.705,"text":"你不知道,10塊,一間要10組。"},{"start":483.176,"end":501.063,"text":"這是正當的我要講的就是說我們今年在奧運裡面我們去拿到了兩金五銅總共七面獎牌那幾年前的東京奧運裡面我們更創下了兩金四銀六銅十二面獎牌最好的一個成績這個在我們的黃金計畫裡面這個經費的一個奧元來自於哪裡就是我們的運動發展基金"},{"start":507.665,"end":528.835,"text":"那這一筆經費很大一部分來自於我們的運動彩券的一個盈餘。這個運彩的一個蓬勃發展不僅推動了體育圈,也讓我們的選手有更多的資源來做一個支持。那運動彩券的收入越高,你當然投入運動發展的錢當然會越多。110年,81年多多年,你知道嗎?六百多年,沒關係你不用看,六百多年。"},{"start":533.083,"end":546.418,"text":"那到現在8月份,我只是沒掉到8月份而已,就422億了,看來今年應該算不錯。但是呢,手機不夠多,什麼原因呢?這我直接跟議長和部長跟你們說明。"},{"start":548.615,"end":567.174,"text":"我們的運採的經銷商面臨很大的業績的一個壓力。 現在第三屆,臺灣的運採新增快了一千家的經銷商。 但是呢,市場投注的風氣沒有明顯去提升。 很多經銷商,他的業績反而下滑。 為什麼你知道嗎?你給他幾年要五十萬?"},{"start":568.962,"end":569.422,"text":"一張彩券退佣6.5%"},{"start":593.141,"end":597.41,"text":"有些店家現在一張只能賺6.25的佣金可是退佣是到5%"},{"start":604.008,"end":607.451,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":634.363,"end":658.97,"text":"移住到我們整個運動發展基金裡面去,我們讓我們的國際賽事裡面,因為這筆錢培養更多的一個那麼棒的選手,可是我們在這些肢解裡面,我認為這個也是改革的一環啦。 告訴你,我都覺得怪怪的啦,這未來運動部應該去做這個,去做個好事啦。 另外一種,部長、院長你不用笑了,我那邊有很多人要拔轎,"},{"start":660.421,"end":688.43,"text":"你如果說要擲這個運彩還好,都擲什麼你知道嗎?非法的,球棒嘛,球板嘛,就是一般講的球板嘛,就是地下運彩啦。如果是真的是要運彩,我們就政府這個跟委託機關發行的就可以玩啦。可是呢為什麼大家不玩?不好玩還到去一年還6百億喔,啊如果好玩咧,啊為什麼會跟地下運彩,那所謂的球板差那麼多,不中你知道嗎?"},{"start":690.923,"end":709.001,"text":"你這樣代表你都沒在拼我多少天有在拼你知道嗎?那個為什麼會這樣你知道嗎?你像譬如說那個賠率我們現在的運財我們政府你說你委託去發行的1.5就我100塊我只能拿回50塊我賭1萬我拿回來的是5000"},{"start":710.982,"end":738.249,"text":"地下的、非法的那些球板的我一萬塊我贏了就贏九千,好會把那肝臍給落羊的,所以呢,大家都保養了這個叫做,這種叫做什麼?這種球板喔,用這樣的一個賠率的方式喔,我們政府的輸給人家有一種叫現金版的,另外一種叫做信用版的,現金版的是垃圾啊另外一種叫做信用版,我教你怎麼擲,擲地下運財啦"},{"start":740.819,"end":764.731,"text":"信用版的熱量,你需要一定的額度,你政府部長給你這個做到補訂的你的GIF,給你100萬。我來了,不用花錢來啊。啊你寶叔你要錢來啊。啊你沒錢要怎麼辦?嘿嘿,就有人來我借你錢。地下錢帳我就借你錢。啊借完又沒錢怎麼辦?有一群人,他就來給你討席啊。討席你要怎麼辦?你就招勞啊。社會案件就發生了。"},{"start":765.319,"end":773.521,"text":"所以連這個賠率我都認為,我們就已經開放這個運財了,那為什麼會這次1比1,1.5呢?"},{"start":773.521,"end":784.523,"text":"跟那個地下運財乾扁啦,沒錯?1.9都賣當1.9啊,政府也有稅收,韓院長在笑啦,你看。 他們選總統的時候我們也在爬到要死耶。"},{"start":789.983,"end":811.827,"text":"何況這個是正常運動的一個彩券,你那個退翁那個文化那個不對。 第二個你那個賠率跟那個地下的運財差的讓人家覺得你都毫無吸引力喔。 又減到尾了,讓他們在那裡猖獗,造成一大堆煮頭。 這個我看,不然你簡單給我回應一下好不好。"},{"start":814.283,"end":817.184,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個硬財 確實它這些年來這個硬財這個利潤確實協助了這個國內的運動這個蓬勃發展 那麼運動採卷這個也讓我們運動發展基金這個隱移編列這個有多了 這些年有這個收入60多億"},{"start":840.578,"end":844.379,"text":"所以我的意思是說經銷商困境我們要讓人家解決。"},{"start":861.041,"end":877.157,"text":"退佣這個比例我想我們內部在整個辦法還有這個倍率我看我們再來有一個跟業界我們既然政府委託去發行以後那個制度有弊端或有不合理我們也要改革"},{"start":879.212,"end":894.645,"text":"你已經合法認取他的一個存在啦那你為什麼讓他我佣金6.25我退佣退5%我其他我只做金水電子也不夠就變成大家一起來賭博了嘛你要賭你又輸給人家那個地下彩券"},{"start":896.817,"end":919.753,"text":"我現在是職欄的會長,拜託把我們的職欄寫進去啦,品項就多了嘛。博弈型的運彩跟彩券都必須有社會更安全的管控才可以,尤其是運彩現在比賽的公平性。那如果政府提供更安全可靠的,用這個來吸引國人來參與,但是在計算的過程當中,我們如果說"},{"start":921.014,"end":924.735,"text":"我完全沒有辦法跟這個地下的來競爭的話那我覺得運採他的功能會"},{"start":961.764,"end":961.985,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:26 - 14:46:30","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155482","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（14時30分）謝謝韓院長，有請行政院卓院長及教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長及鄭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長午安。昨天中共又對臺灣進行了環台軍演，不過這跟以前來做比較的話，這次只有1天就結束了，好像觀光一樣，但是我看到新華社特別提到說這是對台獨分裂勢力的強力震懾，說是捍衛國家主權、維護國家統一的必要行動。這個聽在臺灣人的耳朵裡面，大家可能會覺得鬼才要跟它統一！但是老共的統戰手法除了文攻武嚇之外，也就是軍事、政治跟經濟上的壓力之外，這幾年它也透過文化跟體育活動來進行統戰，而且是軟硬兼施。比如2個月前的第五屆海峽兩岸青少年棒球文化節，這聽起來是很正常的體育活動，可是我看到國台辦主任宋濤利用這樣一個體育賽事所談的都是「一中原則」跟「九二共識」，強調習近平高度重視、關心臺灣的青年，歡迎臺灣青年去共築中國夢，可是看到了昨天的軍演，我覺得這個都是兩面手法。","可是這樣的體育活動，我們看到國內的縣市首長去了也是強調「九二共識」、「反對台獨」，比如說上個月福建舉辦了一個「同名村村BA籃球邀請賽」，人家是NBA，他們就針對同名村弄了個村BA籃球邀請賽，就是利用宗親文化的感情及歷史交織，進一步也是談到兩岸一家親。這個看起來很清楚，都是一種統戰，可是本院立委也會去拍片、去幫忙做背書。我不曉得院長和部長對於這些中國利用體育賽事來當成統戰工具的資訊有沒有掌握？接下來我們面對這樣的情況，院長的態度是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，我們當然希望體育運動賽事無國界，讓全世界的好手能夠聚集一堂來互相切磋、比較，但是從過去到現在以來穿插太多的政治因素，連參加人的服裝、旗、歌都要對我們有種種限制的話，就是扣一頂大帽子再讓我們穿小鞋，這樣是非常不好的，兩岸之間通常就是在這種狀況底下。我實在很希望這種活動如果是誠心誠意為對方著想，讓對方年輕人參與的活動，那是非常非常好的，但是通常都不是這樣子的，所以我們要有相當大的戒心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我非常贊同院長所提到的，其實哪怕是昨天中共軍演剛結束，如果兩岸之間體育文化的交流不要涉及統戰的話，臺灣的民眾還是可以接受兩邊的交流。對於院長這樣的表態，我相信都值得政府再去做進一步省思，面對體育的統戰，甚至是各種利誘，我想最主要應該是要把我們自己的體育環境打造的更好，為臺灣的運動員提供更好的空間。","民進黨在執政的時候，有關運動的預算，體育署2016年是79.8億，到2022年是130億，2023年是137.6億，2024年超過160億。最近在組織方面，外界都認為是要升格，雖然行政院認為這是一個全新的，跟升格的概念不一樣，OK，但我比較擔心的是什麼？我比較擔心的是，院長，如果將教育部裡面原來的組織或是業務都把它移撥以後，我們最擔心的是體育的部分需要去改革，新的運動部成立以後必須要去回應外界，亦即以後整個運動界他們真正的需求。我要就教院長的就是，請你去看，我前幾天質詢我們的人事長，我們的體育部組織成立了，員額到底要怎麼編？","目前教育部本部的員額是567人，公務預算的員額是1,540人，體育署是165人，人事長給我的回應是說，體育署已有現職人員，尚不需修訂中央政府機關總員額法。站在人事長的立場，他一定認為看有沒有辦法精簡組織，可是站在行政院這麼多部會的角度，像我就看到不管是海巡也好，警察人員也好，甚至我們的檢察機關也好，法務部也好，他們又需要很多的人力，可是我們的運動部上來以後，我們必須要去增加它的人力。我不知道院長你有什麼樣的「仙丹」，要怎麼去調和？這兩個是完全不一樣的概念，就教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。運動部從籌備開始至今受到社會廣泛的注意，也得到很多的支持，我們的任務是將教育部的體育署，不是升格的問題，是讓它成為一個全新的體育部，所以除了要全民運動，除了要國際競技、運動產業之外，針對一些弱勢的運動項目，我們也會給它更好的運動空間跟環境，這個都會在未來的運動部裡面產生。當然人事總處會希望員額能精簡，但是我認為在有限的人事當中，我們只要賦予未來的運動部新的政策宗旨，它就必定會有新的發展，而且它的預算也比往年還要多，我們絕對不會浪費任何的預算，會讓它充分的發揮。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我們都期待，我們期待運動部成立以後，整個中央的資源可以很精準的下到基層，我們也希望在運動部成立以後，能更擴展整個全民運動的思維，但是真的最主要我們最擔心的是，不要換湯不換藥……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：應該要去改革過去的一些弊端以回應外界的訴求。文化部長請回。","另外，我要就教院長跟部長的議題，就這個議題，其實運動部的成立從這個議題就看得出來真的有其必要，教育部，你看現在彩券就是你們管的嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：實話說讓教育部管彩券還是怪怪的，好像在賭博一樣，然後電競叫你們來管其實也怪怪的，所以趕快成立一個運動部，讓相關業務有所歸屬也不是壞事。我要就教院長跟部長的就是，不知道你們兩位平常有沒有在關注運動賽事，我相信都有，你們有買過運動彩券（運彩）？"],["卓院長榮泰：我買過一次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你買過一次。一注幾塊你知道嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：不知道。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不知道。10塊，一次要買十注，這都是合法的，不是賭博，這個是正當的。我要講的就是，我們在今年的奧運會中拿到了兩金五銅總共七面獎牌，在幾年前的東京奧運會中，我們更創下了兩金四銀六銅十二面獎牌，是最大、最好的成績。我們黃金計畫的經費奧援來自於哪裡？就是我們的運動發展基金，這一筆經費很大一部分來自於我們運動彩券的盈餘。運彩的蓬勃發展不僅推動了體育圈，也讓我們的選手能獲得更多的資源來支持。","運動彩券的收入越高，投入運動發展的錢當然會越多，111年有多少錢你知不知道？部長。600億，沒關係你不用看，是600億。今年到現在截至8月份，我只調到8月份的資料而已，就有422億，看來今年應該算不錯，但是收入並沒有再增加，是什麼原因呢？這個我直接跟院長、部長你們說明。","我們的運彩經銷商面臨很大的業績壓力，這次第三屆臺灣運彩新增了快一千家的經銷商，但是市場投注的風氣沒有明顯提升，很多經銷商的業績反而下滑，你知道是為什麼嗎？因為你們是規定50萬，規定50萬以後人多了，官方設定50萬的業績門檻，如果不到50萬，比如一個月只有10萬，我怎麼辦？我自己投，我自己下注，我認為這等同用自己的錢去賭博，這也不合理。第二個是什麼呢？就是退佣，現在店家一張彩券才賺6.25%的佣金，可是退佣是退到5%，這樣他都不用賺錢了！我認為這個惡性競爭跟退佣的文化導致這些經銷商都沒辦法賺到錢，所以這個部分我認為教育部有必要去處理，因為你們是主管機關嘛！應該要跟委託發行的機關好好再去商量一下，因為我覺得這個運彩這樣就不對了，我們既然要讓它合法發行，我們又把這些錢挹注到整個運動發展基金裡面去，我們在國際賽事裡面，用這筆錢培養更多那麼棒的選手，可是我們在這些枝節裡面，我認為這個也是改革的一環啦！我跟教育部說這個，我都覺得怪怪的，這應該是未來的運動部要去處理好。","另外，院長，你也不用笑，我身邊有很多人都在賭博，如果是來賭這個運彩也還好，可是你知道都是賭什麼嗎？是賭非法的，就是一般講的球版嘛！這個是地下運彩，如果真的是要玩運彩，我們政府跟委託機關發行的就可以玩了，可是為什麼大家不玩？就算不好玩，一年還有600億，那如果好玩呢？為什麼會跟地下運彩那個所謂的球版差那麼多？部長，你知道嗎？這樣代表你都沒有在賭，我多少有在賭，你知道嗎？你知道那個為什麼會這樣嗎？譬如說那個賠率，我們現在的運彩也就是政府委託去發行的是1.5，就是我賭100塊，我只能拿回50塊，我賭1萬，我拿回來的是5,000，那地下非法的那些球版，我賭一萬塊，如果我贏了就是贏9,000，那賭起來心情更好啊！所以大家都往那裡去賭了，像這種球版用這樣賠率的方式，我們政府就輸給人家了，有一種叫現金版，另外一種叫做信用版，現金版就是馬上拿錢，另外一種叫做信用板，我教你要怎麼賭地下運彩，信用版是給你一定的額度，像鄭部長做到部長了，這樣的級數就讓你賭100萬，賭的時候不用先拿錢來，如果賭輸就要拿錢來，你沒錢要怎麼辦？就有人說：「來，我借你錢。」地下錢莊就借你錢，借完又沒錢要怎麼辦？就會有一組人來跟你討債，來討債你要怎麼辦？你就跑路了，社會案件就發生了！所以對於這個賠率，我認為我們就已經開放運彩了，那為什麼會只有1.5呢？部長，要和地下運彩拚啦！他們1.9，我們也可以1.9啊！政府又有稅收……韓院長在笑了，你看！在他們競選總統的時候，我們也是賭到要死，何況這個是正常的運動彩券！你那個退佣的文化不對，第二個，你那個賠率跟地下運彩差太多，讓人家覺得你都毫無吸引力，到最後讓他們在那邊猖獗，造成一大堆組頭，部長，你簡單回應一下好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心運彩，這些年來運彩的利潤確實挹注、協助了國內運動的蓬勃發展，那麼運動彩券的盈餘也讓我們的運動發展基金在這些年有編列收入六十多億……"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是10%。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，包含這一次的巴黎奧運，整個運彩大概有將近150億，我們就實收大概有10億。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我的意思是說我們要幫經銷商解決他們的困境。"],["鄭部長英耀：剛才委員談到退佣的比例，我想我們內部在整個辦法還有那個賠率，我看我們再跟業界做更精細的討論。"],["莊委員瑞雄：既然政府委託去發行以後，若那個制度有弊端或有不合理之處，院長，我們也要予以改革啊！你已經合法認許它的一個存在了，那你為什麼會讓它的佣金6.25%，若退佣退5%，其他光是租金、水電費也不夠，那就變成大家一起來賭博了嘛，你要賭，你又輸給地下彩券，這個說不通啦！我現在就是職籃的會長，拜託，把我們的職籃順便列進去啦！品項就多了嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：博弈型的運彩跟彩券都必須有社會更安全的管控才可以，尤其是運彩牽涉到比賽的公平性，如果政府提供更安全、可靠的，用這個來吸引國人來參與，但是在計算的過程當中，我們如果說完全沒有辦法跟地下的來競爭的話，那我覺得運彩它的功能會減弱，這個部分我們可以檢討，但還是要維持社會的公平性跟信賴度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！我覺得這個部分應該改革還是要改革啦！謝謝院長，接下來黃建賓會跟你討錢，你就跟他說，趕快讓總預算通過啦！確實臺東真的很缺錢，像我們的農路，臺東真的很需要，災損真的很需要，可是沒錢啊！而水災的部分的執行率，去年編的已經執行到99.1%，農業部農路的部分還差414億，待會黃建賓跟你討經費的話就給他啦，但是請趕快讓總預算通過啦！"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。接下來請登記第8號黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-15","影片長度":"00:15:29","end_time":"2024-10-15T11:49:47+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155473","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","duration":929,"start_time":"2024-10-15T11:34:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a3ab458bd335e94e50ab4193ed07e903624c79fb42d37a1705b4274c94eda10f9bbaa56767decb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.72659375,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.84846875,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.39096875,"end":19.133468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.50909375,"end":25.090343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.309718750000002,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.06034375,"end":28.887218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.106593750000002,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.70909375,"end":35.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.17721875,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.759093750000005,"end":43.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.40409375,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.85096875,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.994093750000005,"end":48.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.98971875,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.305968750000005,"end":65.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.11534375,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.50159375,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.08784375,"end":71.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.18846875,"end":74.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.88034375000001,"end":75.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.85034375000001,"end":78.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.40721875,"end":77.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.73596875,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.08159375000001,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.78596875000001,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.47346875000001,"end":85.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.55346875000001,"end":86.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.76409375,"end":90.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.46409375,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.46784375,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.13846875,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.43346875,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.60159375,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.12471875,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.18784375000001,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.76096875,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.59596875000001,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.61659375,"end":118.79721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.62846875000001,"end":120.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.31159375000001,"end":128.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.91034375000001,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.60159375,"end":131.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.52096875,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.58409375000002,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.74409375000002,"end":139.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.04284375,"end":141.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.10159375,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.31221875,"end":146.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.75909375,"end":159.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.35659375,"end":160.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.06909375,"end":164.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.14034375,"end":164.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.76471875000001,"end":165.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.50721875000002,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.07159375,"end":173.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.19784375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.24409375000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.85971875,"end":196.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.19846875000002,"end":199.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.49346875,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.99534375000002,"end":222.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.65846875000003,"end":224.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.41346875000002,"end":227.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.79284375,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.49659375000002,"end":241.54596875000001},{"speaker":"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"end":86.663,"text":"呃,第一個他不是在只是為了健全他的資本,不是健全他的財務,他不是健全他的財務,因為今年我們在電價調整當中,民生用電是非常的穩定的,是沒有調整的,那從這裡做一些補貼的政策,讓台電自己去"},{"start":87.779,"end":87.939,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":103.317,"end":103.917,"text":"那今年我們還有一項就是他的這個"},{"start":121.423,"end":121.823,"text":"明年呢?"},{"start":121.823,"end":123.004,"text":"明年你們預計那個經濟部還要再撥補台電?"},{"start":123.004,"end":124.706,"text":"我們照最近這一次的調整之後幾項原則,第一個是反應成本"},{"start":139.957,"end":140.177,"text":"我跟院長說"},{"start":161.956,"end":174.891,"text":"補債資本跟補債營業收入是不一樣的,這是台電的損益表,1到8月最新的,我昨天晚上才抓下來的,它的稅前盈餘,稅前虧損現在是400億,"},{"start":178.161,"end":194.119,"text":"現在是400億的情況下如果我們今年度行政院追加的臺電的1000億的預算是補在營業收入的話那現在稅錢馬上就會由虧轉營變成600億"},{"start":197.262,"end":218.993,"text":"你稅前盈餘就會有600億這600億在到就是今年度的會計年度結束以後它就會變成稅後盈餘稅後盈餘就可以打消我們資產負債表裡面現在目前台電4,219億的虧損是不是"},{"start":223.72,"end":243.891,"text":"如果台電是用這樣的財務的計算方式來看,我們將來在提出追加預算的說明當中,他應該進一步說明將來的用途。 是不是這樣子?如果是這樣子,他可以立即的打消他4,219億的累積虧損。 所以我們說今年的追加預算,一方面是"},{"start":244.775,"end":246.535,"text":"我們4月已經漲一次電價了明天即將第二次調整我們的工業用電"},{"start":265.88,"end":288.817,"text":"總共的調幅是12%左右那今年4月到現在調整電價已經讓臺電增加1000億的稅前盈餘了那第二次的調漲電價會不會增加更多然後如果目前我們現在是追加1000億嘛"},{"start":289.918,"end":313.469,"text":"如果你是補債收入的話那我們馬上就可以打消它的累計虧損再加上明天開始的調漲電價有可能我們就可以馬上的來打消台電的這個虧損如果這個情況下我想請問院長的是明年還需要撥補嗎還是我們馬上刪除"},{"start":316.91,"end":344.839,"text":"還是等到看到了今年漲電價的這個結果﹖打消累計虧損的結果以後﹖我們再來決定明年要不要再追加一千億的預算﹖畢竟一千億不是一千塊是不是都是人民辛苦的納稅權。 院長你怎麼樣決定這個東西你是交給臺電還是最後在院會裡面由院長決定"},{"start":345.979,"end":374.137,"text":"跟委員報告,過去兩三年因為烏鶴戰爭的關係,原物料上漲的幅度是相當大的,那這個都是在臺電的吸收範圍當中,所以我們必須要填補這些東西。 那是過去,我知道,這是過去累計虧損4,219億嘛,這是過去。 那我們期待臺電的營運能夠越區健全,就是要接近反應成本的越區健全。那明年它電價會不會調整,不是現在我說,當然是明年審議委員會,我期待,我期待。"},{"start":375.218,"end":402.634,"text":"如果按照這樣子的方式其實你們的追加預算的今年1000億的追加預算你就應該把它編在收入馬上打消它的累計虧損未來當然啦等到下一次的電價審議的時候那就不用再調整電價這才是苦民所苦現在民眾已經非常非常苦了"},{"start":404.896,"end":424.537,"text":"現在電價調不調整當然是電價審議委員會了但是我是期待在今年這樣調整之後我們可以穩定一段時間對電價讓它穩定這是我的期待我想任何一個政府的官員都不希望用調整各種的民生費用來增加人民的負擔"},{"start":426.118,"end":449.549,"text":"所以我才在這裡提出建議 如果你邊在收入的話 那電價審議委員會會不會調整電價也要按照台電目前虧損以及他財務的情況 那如果我們按照這樣子財務的規劃的話是不是可以馬上的讓他打消累計虧損 而且我想請問的"},{"start":450.709,"end":465.928,"text":"如果按照這個情況把它列在營業收入就是這一千億的撥補列在營業收入的話我想請問卓院長的你要補助哪一些產業是中小企業還是要補助民生用電"},{"start":467.083,"end":484.661,"text":"當然是補助民生用電了,現在今年這一次的調整我們就是補助民生用電以及一些過去這段時間以來它的營業或是用電衰退的我們盡量不予調整,但是所產生出來跟成本之間的差額"},{"start":485.402,"end":503.078,"text":"他還說過去衰退的,那是產業喔,中小企業喔,是不是,你就要撥補在中小企業的一部分而已,比方說我們特別對花東的旅宿業,我們特別要,他真的是經營上的困難,增加就算7%也是困難。"},{"start":503.638,"end":504.318,"text":"國會主委跟教育部長請備詢"},{"start":535.916,"end":539.336,"text":"你們故意走得很慢沒關係我的時間停了"},{"start":547.19,"end":573.027,"text":"吳主委我知道你很關心台積電要不要在德國還有歐洲國家設廠我看到新聞可是你知不知道我們二零我們彰化的縣民也很希望台積電可以來二零中科設廠你知道科學園區也是你的管轄範圍內吧你清楚的了解吧是"},{"start":573.936,"end":597.627,"text":"那對於這個你有什麼你昨天評論了你說說台積電要去德國還有歐洲很多國家設廠那對於我們彰化憲民的判斷你給予什麼樣子的回應我們對於台灣各處的可能發展的基地我們都會協助那彰化20的這個科學園區"},{"start":599.98,"end":615.939,"text":"目前他的基地是比較小,而且當初在...基地不小欸,我們現在只用了一半而已,一半還不到,招商一半還不到,未來我們希望招商更多欸。我們最近...今天是國是會沒來欸,我才跟你講欸。"},{"start":617.02,"end":640.436,"text":"郭志輝也在趕快把這個台積電相關的封測﹖因為我們二林中科是一個低度用水用電﹖他可以做的是半導體裡面的封測﹖有台積電的封測﹖也有相關其他封測的產業﹖郭志輝都在把他們拉攏到產業院去﹖你要不要把他拉攏到科學院去啊?"},{"start":641.817,"end":657.79,"text":"如果條件許可的話,廠商也有意願,我們當然會協助,但是現在目前二零的這個水電的這個需求,因為有受到當初在環境影響評估的時候決議的限制,那個如果我們"},{"start":658.61,"end":683.319,"text":"地方政府願意提及協助。 封測可以,那你要不要大地協助。你不要只關心歐洲嘛,你要不要關心我們台灣。 報告委員,報告委員。 前瞻封測不是像傳統封測一樣。 台積電現在需求的是前瞻封測,它也牽涉到晶圓的處理。 晶圓的處理需要用到相當大的這個水電,所以條件現在還不符合。 那如果說將來地方政府積極去規劃,能夠從產磚區開始。"},{"start":686.7,"end":687.28,"text":"目前這個道明大學"},{"start":716.648,"end":743.253,"text":"明道大學這個退場他是由這個衛福部要準備這個來接管那也就是說他希望在那邊 張化縣政府跟衛福部共同嘛 對不對衛福部他做那個藥草的那個草藥員 中醫藥草藥員那其他的就是體育設施以及校舍相關的部分是由張化縣政府來共同接管嘛 主要的"},{"start":744.033,"end":747.314,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":769.798,"end":787.154,"text":"我們有非常多的離岸風電那是不是能夠把部分的離岸一小部分提供給當然就是提供給我們彰化的中小企業因為大部分的綠電已經被科學園區的拿去了嘛"},{"start":787.614,"end":799.805,"text":"但是對於中小企業有嫁接到國際綠色供應業裡面的中小企業,他們也需要相關的探權,是不是能夠協助呢?"},{"start":803.187,"end":812.435,"text":"這一個因為我們目前的一個辦法確實就是由衛福部來統籌啦,但是如果他這個整個空間我想我們在整個整體的一個規劃跨部會裡面看怎麼樣來協助這個讓空間能夠做到一個更"},{"start":823.922,"end":838.053,"text":"大學退場的問題,教育部也是其中的一份子,不要再推給微服部,還有行政院的0到6歲國家養的政策,目前推動的情況是如何?"},{"start":838.925,"end":864.747,"text":"我們零到二歲的專班也會在明年開始會增設200班,這個是大家非常…那在彰化縣呢?因為我們彰化縣現在有些鄉鎮是欠缺零到二歲的國嬰的部分,有些鄉鎮欠缺三到六歲幼兒園的部分,那這樣子分配不均的情況下,怎麼樣子發展零到六歲呢?"},{"start":865.547,"end":894.036,"text":"幼兒園跟0到20歲的專班我覺得各地都有需求啦各地都有需求,量還是不夠像我之前到高雄他們說這邊已經有兩班了我們上化縣也有需求啊各地應該透過地方政府趕快整合一下不是高雄有需求全台灣都有需求你怎麼做你要落實這個政見不是只有單一個方向當然是,我說全台灣都有需求趕快提出各縣市的需求那麼有沒有設置的地點要怎麼樣去做合作"},{"start":896.937,"end":920.965,"text":"目前的確在彰化縣的各鄉鎮對於這0到6歲大家都沒有辦法真的知道政見要怎麼落實因為有些部分缺的是0到2歲有些部分缺的是3到6歲在缺的不均勻的情況下這個政見就沒有辦法落實我認為"},{"start":926.412,"end":926.432,"text":"好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:34:18 - 11:49:47","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155473","gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時34分）謝謝主席，我想要請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：卓院長早安。我看到前天我們經濟部長說如果兩年以後台電還是虧損，他就要下臺，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是他之前就說過的，他認為兩年之後，照他的方向可以讓台電調整，讓它的財務健全。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我也有一些看法，說不定我的方法比他還快。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教，我們很樂意聽。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要問一下，你們今年追加台電1,000億的預算，是跟過去一樣為了健全台電的財務結構，編列在台電的資本，還是編在營業收入裡面？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，它不只是為了健全它的資本……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是健全資本？所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是健全它的財務。"],["謝委員衣鳯：編在營業收入？"],["卓院長榮泰：它不是健全它的財務，因為今年我們在電價調整當中民生用電是非常穩定的，是沒有調整的，從這裡做一些補貼的政策，讓台電自己去處理，未來追加預算通過的話，它是不是用來補貼一些這個部分，讓財務能夠健全，再加上以前歷年來的補貼。今年我們比較不一樣的是，我們對於大戶的用電增加的比較多，是反應成本，我們希望用這個方式，在一年後、兩年後，它能夠接近營運成本跟績效。"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去都是補在資本嘛，對不對？為了健全它的財務結構，所以過去的撥補都是補在台電的資本裡面。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年我們還有一項，就是電網韌性的加強，我們有編了五千多億……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，那個部分是資本。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果還需要的話，台電可以去勻支它相關的預算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那明年呢？明年預計經濟部還要再撥補台電1,000億。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們照最近這一次的調整之後有幾項原則，第一個是反應成本；第二個就是穩定物價、照顧民生；再來就是要使用者付費。如果照現在的調整來看，民生的部分由政府、由大家再做一些補貼，而其他的接近成本的話，那我預計明年台電的營運會比現在好，我們給它一段時間，看它能不能改變體質。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我跟院長說，補在資本跟補在營業收入是不一樣的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是不一樣，對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是台電1到8月最新的損益表，我昨天晚上才抓下來的，它的稅前虧損現在是400億，在這情況下，如果今年度行政院追加台電1,000億的預算是補在營業收入的話，現在稅前馬上就會由虧轉盈變成600億，稅前盈餘就會有600億。這600億在今年度的會計年度結束以後，它就會變成稅後盈餘，稅後盈餘就可以打消我們資產負債表裡面目前台電4,219億的虧損，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果台電是用這樣財務的計算方式來看，我們將來在提出追加預算的說明當中，它應該進一步說明將來的用途。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是治本的方式啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果是這樣子，它可以立即打消4,219億的累積虧損。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們說今年的追加預算，一方面是穩定民生的電價……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們4月已經漲一次電價了！"],["卓院長榮泰：一方面是可以健全它的財務，健全財務也包括對過去虧損的部分能夠做一些回補的動作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們4月已經漲一次電價了，明天即將第二次調整我們的工業用電，總共的調幅是百分之十二左右，今年4月到現在，調整電價已經讓台電增加1,000億的稅前盈餘了，第二次的調漲電價會不會增加更多？目前我們追加1,000億嘛！如果是補在收入的話，我們馬上就可以打消它的累計虧損，再加上明天開始的調漲電價，有可能就可以馬上來打消台電的虧損。在這個情況下，我想請問院長，明年還需要撥補嗎？還是我們馬上刪除？還是等到看到了今年漲電價的結果，打消累計虧損的結果以後，我們再來決定明年要不要再追加1,000億的預算，畢竟1,000億不是1,000塊，都是人民辛苦的納稅錢。院長，你怎麼樣決定？這個東西你是交給台電，還是最後在院會裡面由院長決定？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，過去兩、三年因為烏俄戰爭的關係，原物料上漲的幅度是相當大的，這個都是在台電的吸收範圍當中，所以我們必須要填補這些東西，……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是過去，我知道！累計虧損4,219億，那是過去。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們期待台電的營運能夠越趨健全，就是要接近反映成本的越趨健全；明年電價會不會調整，不是現在我來說，當然是由明年的審議委員會，但我期待、我期待。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果按照這樣子的方式，其實今年1,000億的追加預算，你就應該把它編在收入，馬上打消它的累計虧損，未來等到下一次電價審議的時候，就不用再調整電價，這才是苦民所苦，現在民眾已經非常非常苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：電價調不調整，當然是電價審議委員會決定，但我是期待在今年這樣調整之後，我們可以穩定一段時間，電價讓它穩定，這是我的期待。我想，任何一個政府的官員都不希望用調整各種民生費用來增加人民的負擔，這是你我共同的心願。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我才在這裡提出建議，如果你編在收入的話，電價審議委員會會不會調整電價，也要按照台電目前的虧損以及它財務的情況，如果按照這樣的財務規劃，是不是可以馬上讓它打消累計虧損？而且我想請問，如果按照這個情況，把它列在營業收入，就是把這1,000億的撥補列在營業收入的話，我想請問卓院長，你要補助哪一些產業？是中小企業還是要補助民生用電？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是補助民生用電，今年這一次的調整，我們就是補助民生用電……"],["謝委員衣鳯：怎麼補？"],["卓院長榮泰：以及一些過去這段時間以來，它的營業或是用電衰退的，我們儘量不予調整，但是所產生出來跟成本之間的差額……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你剛才說過去是衰退的，那是產業、是中小企業，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：中小企業，對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你就要撥補在中小企業的……"],["卓院長榮泰：一部分而已。"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後大部分用在民生用電，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：比方說我們特別對於花東的旅宿業，它真的是有經營上的困難，就算增加7%也是困難，現在其他的旅宿業也在跟我們陳情、要求要比照，這個部分經濟部是不是還有空間來調整，跟電價審議會會不會再調整，我們不知道，但是大戶的用電，那是調整得比較高；中小企業，一些小店家、小商店的那個部分，我們是沒有調整，我們的政策是如此。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。","接著我想要請國科會的吳主委跟教育部的鄭部長。"],["主席：請國科會主委跟教育部長備詢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：吳主委，我知道你很關心台積電要不要在德國還有很多歐洲國家設廠，我看到新聞了，可是你知不知道我們彰化的縣民也很希望台積電可以來二林中科設廠？你知道科學園區也是你的管轄範圍內吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你清楚了解吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於這個你有什麼看法？你昨天評論了，你說台積電要去德國還有歐洲很多國家設廠，因此，對於我們彰化縣民的盼望，你給予什麼樣子的回應？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對於臺灣各處可能發展的基地，我們都會協助，彰化二林的科學園區，目前它的基地比較小，而且當初在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：基地不小！我們現在只用了一半而已，招商一半還不到，未來我們希望可以招商得更多。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們最近……"],["謝委員衣鳯：今天是郭智輝沒來，我才跟你講。郭智輝也趕快把台積電相關的封測……因為我們二林中科是低度用水用電的，它可以做的是半導體裡面的封測，那有台積電的封測，也有相關其他封測廠……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員……"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭智輝都把他們拉攏到產業園區裡，所以你要不要把它拉攏到科學園區來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果條件許可，廠商也有意願的話，我們當然會協助。但目前二林在水電的需求上，因為受到當初環境影響評估的決議限制……"],["謝委員衣鳯：封測可以，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果地方政府願意積極協助……"],["謝委員衣鳯：封測可以，所以你要不要大力協助？"],["吳主任委員誠文：前瞻……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你那麼關心歐洲，請問你要不要關心我們臺灣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，前瞻封測不像傳統封測一樣，台積電現在需求的是前瞻封測，這也牽涉到晶圓的處理，而晶圓的處理需要用到相當大量的水電，所以現在條件還不符合。如果將來地方政府積極規劃，能夠從產專區開始，而廠商也覺得適合的話，科學園區方面我們一定會盡力來協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好的，我只是要聽到你會盡力協助我們彰化縣，不要只關心歐洲。","我請問鄭部長，現在有私立大學因為招生不足而面臨退場，像彰化的明道大學就是一個例子。就你所知，目前的規劃是怎樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前明道大學退場後，是由衛福部準備接管。也就是說希望在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：彰化縣政府跟衛福部共同，對不對？衛福部要做草藥園區……"],["鄭部長英耀：中草藥、中醫。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其他就是體育設施及校舍相關的部分，由彰化縣政府共同接管，主要的統籌是彰化縣政府。最近政府部門在推的是AI，所以我們也希望爭取AI智慧產業軟體園區來到這裡設廠。還有目前才剛公布碳費的部分，我們也希望碳權交易平臺……畢竟我們有非常多的離岸風電，是不是能夠把一小部分的離岸風電提供給我們彰化的中小企業？因為大部分綠電已經被科學園區拿去了，如果有對接到國際綠色供應鏈的中小企業，他們也需要碳權，是不是能夠協助呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前的辦法是由衛福部來統籌……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這不是衛福部的問題……"],["鄭部長英耀：這整個空間的整體規劃，我們會跨部會協調，看怎麼樣來協助，讓這個空間能夠達到更好、更友善、更有效率的使用。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是大學退場的問題，教育部是其中的一份子，不要再推給衛福部。還有，行政院零到六歲國家養的政策，目前推動的情況是如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：零到二歲的專班明年開始會增設200班，這是大家非常……"],["謝委員衣鳯：彰化縣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：各地……"],["謝委員衣鳯：彰化縣有些鄉鎮欠缺的是零到二歲的托嬰部分……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，零到二歲。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有些鄉鎮欠缺的是三到六歲幼兒園的部分，在分配不均的情況下，怎麼樣發展零到六歲呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：幼兒園跟零到二歲的專班，我覺得各地都有需求，量還是不夠。像我之前到高雄去，他們說現在已經有兩班了……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們彰化縣也有需求，"],["卓院長榮泰：各地應該透過地方政府趕快整合一下，第一個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是高雄有需求？"],["卓院長榮泰：有需求……"],["謝委員衣鳯：全臺灣都有需求，所以你怎麼做？你要落實這個政見……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是只有單一方向。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是，所以我說全臺灣都有需求，要趕快提出各縣市的需求，有沒有設置的地點、要怎麼樣去合作、其他師資等等的都要處理好，我們才能夠把零到二歲專班落實到地方去。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前彰化縣各鄉鎮對於零到六歲，大家都沒有辦法知道政見要怎麼落實，因為有些部分缺的是零到二歲，有些部分缺的是三到六歲。在缺的不均勻的情況下，這個政見就沒有辦法落實，我認為行政院應該要負責！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會跟地方政府一起加油。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2時30分繼續開會，進行教育及文化組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（11時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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教署跟教育部沒有真的瞭解這個問題下一張是要給"},{"start":154.694,"end":181.189,"text":"院長看的這個是我辦公室自己找出來的數字從你們的教育部的統計年報因為你沒有這個統計我們自己去算出來的我們看一一我們看這個連續幾年院長你可以看一下左邊這個圖的藍色的是有教師資格的就是考上有教師證的下面那個黃色是他過去三年內有來參與爭試的"},{"start":183.911,"end":202.966,"text":"因為你有證照就好像護士一樣護理師有證照不代表他會來應徵嘛那黃色的是來應徵的你看到藍色其實逐年是上升的有越來越多人有這個教師診考上這個資格可是下面黃色你看他越來越少人在三年內來參與這個教師的徵試"},{"start":207.649,"end":223.128,"text":"所以我們在看右邊這個圖我來算統計那教育部一直覺得說其實有教師資格的人很多我們一直在培訓可是你會發現從原本有4成的人3年內他會來爭取這個工作去應徵"},{"start":224.289,"end":252.094,"text":"可是現在只剩下幾乎三分之一從4乘2掉到34%就是現在教育部居然沒有最新的資料只有到111年我的統計願意考教師的人只剩下三分之一有66%的他有失陪取得資格可是卻連去應聘都不願意這是我們現在遇到的最大的危機下一頁"},{"start":253.612,"end":278.788,"text":"那呃那我也要跟院長報告這不是只是臺灣的問題哦那我看到陸續看到這些新聞那我今年暑假去教育最高最厲害的愛沙尼亞跟芬蘭哦披薩都是數一數二的哦他們也發生教師罷工哦教師荒的問題哦我們看一下從法國意大利日本哦三成以上的教師哦被認為是過勞死線那你看到美國"},{"start":279.708,"end":297.129,"text":"英國居然政府還主張用居家工作彈性工時 吸引大家投入教師美國鬧教師荒 還有提到說要週休三日 是不是能夠讓有志之士願意投入 大家都知道教師非常重要"},{"start":297.449,"end":315.557,"text":"那你可以看到全球我不知道原因也許是3C產品年輕世代越來越難教那也許是我們對教師的要求越來越多所以臺灣不是唯一面對這個的處境可是我們跟別的國家比我們現在有沒有找到解方真正找到問題"},{"start":316.457,"end":336.542,"text":"我想看下一頁那台灣的部分那如果一直認知是代理教師荒那就是教育部沒有看到那我們看到就是一些表面上的媒體的分析都還嘗試錯誤的那大家至少看到是年輕世代他們不願意投入這個行業那往下看下一頁"},{"start":337.948,"end":366.625,"text":"這個就是剛剛有委員引用到的我這個五個分析那我結合幾大教師會跟教師公會在今年教師節那針對教師荒提出五個原因那今天我只跟院長討論前三個我提出的五個原因剛剛有委員他有用我這個講法第一個是108課綱給的全新備課資源少我認為108課綱方向是對的我們看到民主國家的方向是這樣"},{"start":367.165,"end":383.971,"text":"可是呢108課綱對師資的要求跟能力是更高的那我們給的備課資源少。 第二個還是回到對老師來講各項加擠過低不符合他耗費心理他多開一門課其實他基本上沒有得到更好的待遇"},{"start":384.551,"end":404.498,"text":"第三個是行政繁重偏離教學專業。 行政繁重有非常多的原因包含我後面幾個就是性貧、霸凌、教師疲累還有校園職場不管是校長霸凌、主管霸凌甚至有老師認為家長都在霸凌那是一個很不友善的職場"},{"start":405.498,"end":432.352,"text":"那這我今天就針對前三項想跟院長討論那也要跟院長報告教育部其實有在努力解決這個問題那教育部的解方是什麼第一個下一個下一頁教育部針對行政繁重目前的解方是針對兼任的行政教師提高加緊那可是我要覺得說其實這是不足的我待會會提到我認為是人力"},{"start":433.993,"end":434.073,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":456.616,"end":469.874,"text":"針對108課綱,教育部也一直在改善。 目前教育部的解方是增加教師研習時數,補助終點費。 這個解方有沒有用?我請院長看下一張我自己做的數字。"},{"start":471.676,"end":492.15,"text":"我們看一下教育部說要補助終點費 院長你看上面那條線是基本工資基本工資這是19年來的資料 66元一小時漲到190塊是不是漲了超過三倍 那我們民進黨政府裡面漲特別多對不對可是我們如果把教師終點費19年來看從260塊漲到336元 欸只漲了29%欸"},{"start":501.016,"end":518.491,"text":"那要跟院長報告,你說教師中年費本來就比去便利商店打工高嘛,不能這樣想,因為備課的時數沒有算進去,對不對?他教一門課,尤其是108課綱這種新課,背後不是只是教書那一小時欸,"},{"start":519.652,"end":544.472,"text":"所以對教師來講我會講這種加級長的方式事實上不符合耗費心理如果你跟第一線老師討論他就覺得那我教原來的那些就好了我為什麼要投入所以其實就目前教育部的解方我認為也並沒有真的能夠解決教師荒的問題尤其是對年輕世代那我們再看下一頁"},{"start":545.578,"end":573.572,"text":"院長這是我非常認同的院長應該看得出來你知不知道這張是哪裡來的院長曉不曉得6到18歲多元均優教育環境成就每個兒少沒關係那個院長可能看的資料量太多了這是我們賴清德總統的政見教育方面的那我就不一項一項列入了我要跟院長報告我非常認同賴總統的教育政見"},{"start":574.292,"end":593.545,"text":"只是它裡面少了一個東西,它每個政見都要教師做更多,包含歧視性平那些我都也很認同,可是針對如何達到這個多元均優的教育環境,以我當大學老師超過10年,師資是最核心的軟實力。"},{"start":595.286,"end":623.107,"text":"如果教師荒,我們再好的政見沒有優質的老師投入,年輕世代甚至有人寧願去當警消,離開教職真的有這樣的例子。因為他下班就是下班了,教師下班,家長可能還會打電話給他。所以我想下一頁我要講的是好的教育,我們賴總統的政見很好,可是需要教師投入更多,"},{"start":623.627,"end":649.333,"text":"每個都教師要投入更多可是我們卻沒有給教師實質更多的支持那我覺得這是目前很大的一個危機那再看下一頁所以我今天的這塊板子坐在這裡其實是要幫我們教育部跟教師向院長請命我覺得需要人事行政總處跟主計總處共同來"},{"start":651.853,"end":676.741,"text":"提供資源為什麼需要提供資源以下是我的解方我不知道下一頁我不知道部長是不是認同我覺得你們現在那個解方還是不夠以我看到這個問題的本質那你們的統計分析也還沒有找出那當然這是可以討論的這我提出來的解方是不是最好的解方那但是我想你們目前對外的回應都還沒有真的了解問題"},{"start":678.322,"end":702.747,"text":"第一個,我認為不能只給錢啊,你行政加擠給更多錢可是因為工作量真的太大了,就是說原本的人在分擔這麼多的工作,我覺得行政應該要專職化,就是人事行政總署、主計總署應該要給教育體系更多的人力,要增設行政專職人力,讓老師專心做老師。"},{"start":705.287,"end":731.161,"text":"那第二個我認為108課綱那現在的方式可能會緩不濟急那剛剛其實有委員談到非常多人為什麼小學就去補習我的理解是因為我們有些城市私立中學被認為比較好他其實是為了要考私中但是擔心108課綱在公立學校的開出的課不夠多那這是我初步的觀察"},{"start":731.621,"end":752.713,"text":"那我認為一個比較快速的解決方式當然我們師資這邊培育可以加強就是108課綱其實我們可以去增聘專業的師資不管是社區大學的講師或者各方面有各種專才的也許會是一個要求老師開課開更多的課我覺得會是一個那這也是需要錢"},{"start":753.593,"end":772.926,"text":"第三個我想目前的教師的終點費調升方案跟教師的薪資真的不符合他們的據說付出我剛已經拿基本工資因為如果去超商下班就下班那可以漲這麼多那為什麼當老師只有漲19年房29%"},{"start":775.908,"end":799.919,"text":"那這三個解方真的不是教育部可以單獨完成的都需要院長支持人事行政總署跟主計總署一起來那院長是不是可以承諾說協助人跟錢呢幫助教育部真正解決這個教師荒的問題那讓我們賴總統很好的教育政見真的可以好好的落實呢"},{"start":800.319,"end":800.499,"text":"主席"},{"start":814.175,"end":840.85,"text":"好謝謝委員在臺灣的社會教師應該本來是一個穩定受尊重而且有成就感的工作但是經過這樣的變化之後他變成一個行政外務壓力大而且不友善的職場環境甚至於他因為學習方式的改變也改變了師生之間的關係這個是現實社會那教育的預算雖然不是憲法的明文規定但是我們編列在百分之十"},{"start":842.291,"end":858.454,"text":"二十三這個數字是一直長年在達到這個目標的,所以它是非常龐大的,而且我也知道在所有教育預算當中有很大的比例是在人事的預算方面,但就儘管如此,我們對於這些剛剛委員所提出的"},{"start":859.683,"end":876.184,"text":"幾個不合理,該增加人的,或者是就增加福利的部分,我們還是願意很誠懇地去檢討,在現有的機制底下去做一個合理性的調整,那我會請教育部來進一步往這個方向想,來提出一個說明跟報告。"},{"start":877.33,"end":903.623,"text":"那還是請院長也考慮人力的部分也要增加因為行政專職化就目前學校裡面的行政工作那讓教師可以專心教書我會覺得是根本解決的部分要不然你原本的勞務這麼的多我們剛講到不管是霸凌、性平各方面還有我們的普特融合那其實增加了非常多的行政工作量那院長還是希望您可以考慮好嗎"},{"start":904.343,"end":904.423,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:18:40 - 11:34:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155472","gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時18分）謝謝副院長，有請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：院長早，您辛苦了，今天我主要也是關注在教師荒，大概只有最後三、五分鐘的時候需要您，所以您可以請坐，沒關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒關係，我就……你請部長來。"],["范委員雲：好。剛剛也有委員問到教師荒，我很謝謝他引用我在記者會所講的五個原因，我當時辦這個記者會其實第一個是跟教育部對話，因為教育部在去年發生的時候說是過渡期，然後說是代理教師荒，可是其實我的研究發現不是代理教師荒，因為如果是代理教師荒的話，不會去年也缺人，結果今年還是缺。當時潘部長說是過渡期，因為我們為代理教師已經做了相當多的政策改變，部長應該了解，因為當時我也是非常關注代理教師同工不同酬的問題，但是今年還是缺人，表面上看起來是個過渡期，以下資料就是要跟院長報告，其實這不是過渡期，這是個嚴肅的問題，所以我才會召開那個記者會。","這是我拜託教育部幫我去跟縣市政府要來的資料，我們以臺北市為例，左邊是他們去年徵正式教師，你看到我圈起來的79，它其實是缺四百多人，徵到三百多人，還缺79個正式教師；右邊是今年，缺額更大，它希望招四百多人，只招到兩百多人，缺了183個正式教師，那是因為正式教師徵不到人，所以才會再去徵代理教師。代理教師這個制度，原本是因為有人懷孕或是照顧假的一個制度，可是現在居然變成是在補正式教師，所以是不只一年的不足，我跟國教署請教過幾次，但我發現國教署跟教育部沒有真的了解這個問題。","下一張是要給院長看的，這個是我辦公室自己找出來的數字，從教育部的統計年報，因為你們沒有這個統計，是我們自己去算出來的。我們看連續幾年，院長，你可以看一下，左邊這個圖的藍色是有教師資格的，就是考上、有教師證的；下面那個黃色是過去三年內有來參與甄試的，因為他有證照，就好像是護理師一樣，有證照不代表他會來應徵，黃色是來應徵的。你看到藍色其實逐年是上升的，有越來越多人有教師證、考上這個資格，可是下面的黃色，你看越來越少人在三年內來參與教師的甄試。我們再看右邊這個圖，我來算並統計，教育部一直覺得其實有教師資格的人很多，我們一直在培訓，可是你會發現，從原本有四成的人三年內會來應徵爭取這個工作，可是現在只剩下幾乎三分之一，從四成二掉到34%，現在教育部居然沒有最新的資料，只有到111年，依我的統計，願意考教師的人只剩下三分之一，有66%是有師培取得資格，可是卻連去應聘都不願意，這是我們現在遇到的最大危機。","當然我也要跟院長報告，這不只是臺灣的問題，我陸續看到這些新聞，我今年暑假去教育最高、最厲害的愛沙尼亞跟芬蘭，PISA都是數一數二的，他們也發生教師罷工、教師荒的問題。我們看一下，從法國、義大利，日本三成以上的教師被認為達過勞死線；你看到美國、英國，居然政府還主張用居家工作、彈性工時來吸引大家投入教師，美國鬧教師荒，還有提到要週休三日，看是不是能夠讓有志之士願意投入。大家都知道教師非常重要，你可以看到全球，我不知道原因，也許是3C產品讓年輕世代越來越難教，也許是我們對教師的要求越來越多，所以臺灣不是唯一面對這個處境的，可是我們跟別的國家比，我們現在有沒有找到解方、真正找到問題？","臺灣的部分，如果一直認知是代理教師荒，那就是教育部沒有看到，我們看到一些表面上的媒體分析都還常是錯誤的，大家至少看到的是年輕世代不願意投入這個行業。這一頁就是剛剛有委員引用到的我的五個分析，我結合幾大教師會跟教師工會，在今年教師節針對教師荒提出五個原因，今天我只跟院長討論前三個。我提出的五個原因，剛剛有委員引用我的講法，第一個是108課綱給的全新備課支援少，我認為108課綱方向是對的，我們看到民主國家的方向是這樣，可是108課綱對師資的要求跟能力是更高的，但我們給的備課支援少。第二個，還是回到對老師來講，各項加給過低，不符合他耗費心力，他多開一門課，基本上，他其實沒有得到更好的待遇。第三個是行政繁重，偏離教學專業，行政繁重有非常多的原因，包含後面幾個，就是性平霸凌頻傳、教師疲累，還有校園職場霸凌，不管是校長霸凌，就是主管霸凌，甚至有老師認為連家長都在霸凌，那是一個很不友善的職場。我今天就針對前三項想跟院長討論，也要跟院長報告，教育部其實也有在努力解決這個問題，教育部的解方是什麼？第一個，教育部針對行政繁重目前的解方是，針對兼任的行政教師提高加給，可是我覺得其實這是不足的，我待會會提到，我認為是人力的問題，我們現在聘用辦公室助理都知道，你有時候加薪，可是工作量沒有減少的話，其實助理還是有可能會選擇離開，因為年輕世代他們對工作的想像，也跟過去的世代不一樣，所以教育部有在努力，可是我覺得這個解方還是不足的。","針對108課綱，教育部也一直在改善，目前教育部的解方是增加教師研習時數、補助鐘點費，這個解方有沒有用？我請院長看下一張我自己做的數字，我們看一下，教育部說要補助鐘點費，院長，你看上面那一條線是基本工資，這是這19年來的資料，從1小時66元漲到190塊，是不是漲了超過3倍？在我們民進黨政府執政期間漲得特別多，對不對？可是我們如果來看這19年來的教師鐘點費，從260塊漲到336元，只漲了29%。要跟院長報告，你說教師鐘點費本來就比去便利商店打工高，不能這樣想，因為備課的時數沒有算進去，對不對？他教一門課，尤其108課綱是一種新課，背後付出的不是只是教書那一小時，所以對教師來講，我要講這種加給漲的方式，事實上不符合耗費的心力，如果你跟第一線老師討論，他就覺得那我教原來的那些就好了，我為什麼要投入？所以其實就目前教育部的解方來說，我認為並沒有真的解決教師荒的問題，尤其是對年輕世代。","我們再看下一頁，院長，這是我非常認同的政見，院長應該看得出來，你知不知道這張是從哪裡來的？院長曉不曉得？「6到18歲多元均優教育環境，成就每個兒少」沒關係，院長可能看的資料量太多了，這是我們賴清德總統教育方面的政見，那我就不一項一項列入了。我要跟院長報告，我非常認同賴總統的教育政見，只是裡面少了一個東西，他每個政見都要教師做更多，包含歧視性平的部分，那些我也都很認同，可是針對如何達到多元均優的教育環境，以我當大學老師超過10年來說，師資是最核心的軟實力，如果教師荒，我們再好的政見，沒有優質的老師投入也沒辦法做，年輕世代甚至有人寧願去當警消，離開教職，真的有這樣的例子，因為他下班就是下班了，教師下班了家長可能還會打電話給他。所以我要講的是，我們賴總統的政見很好，可是好的教育需要教師投入更多，每個都要教師投入更多，可是我們卻沒有給教師更多實質的支持，我覺得這是目前很大的一個危機。","所以我今天做這塊板子在這裡，其實是要幫教育部跟教師向院長請命，我覺得需要人事行政總處跟主計總處共同來提供資源，為什麼需要提供資源？以下是我的解方，我不知道部長是不是認同？我覺得你們現在那個解方還是不夠，以我看到的這個問題的本質，你們的統計分析也還沒有找出來，當然這是可以討論的，我提出來的解方不一定是最好的解方，但是我想你們目前對外的回應都還沒有真的瞭解問題。第一個，我認為不能只給錢啦！雖然行政加給給更多錢，可是因為工作量真的太大了，就是原本的人在分擔這麼多的工作，我覺得行政應該要專職化，人事行政總處、主計總處應該要給教育體系更多的人力，要增設行政專職人力，讓老師專心做老師。第二個，我認為108課綱現在的方式可能會緩不濟急，剛剛其實有委員談到，為什麼非常多人小學就去補習？我的理解是因為我們有些城市私立中學被認為比較好，他其實是為了要考私中，擔心108課綱在公立學校開出的課不夠多，這是我初步的觀察。我認為一個比較快速的解決方式，當然師資這邊培育可以加強，108課綱其實我們可以去增聘專業的師資，不管是社區大學講師或者各方面有各種專才的，也許要求老師開更多的課，我覺得會是一個，這也是需要錢。第三個，我想目前的教師鐘點費調升方案跟教師的薪資，真的不符合他們的付出，我剛剛已經拿基本工資做比較，因為如果去超商，下班就下班，可以漲這麼多，那為什麼當老師19年只有漲29%？","這三個解方真的不是教育部可以單獨完成的，都需要院長支持，人事行政總處跟主計總處一起來，院長是不是可以承諾協助人跟錢，幫助教育部真正解決教師荒的問題，讓我們賴總統很好的教育政見真的可以好好的落實呢？今天我花這麼多時間，就是希望把這個問題講清楚，我知道要卓院長的協助，光靠教育部它就只能夠在增加一點點小錢的方向上努力。以上，不知道院長是否認同？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。在臺灣的社會，教師本來應該是一個穩定、受尊重，而且有成就感的工作，但是經過這樣的變化之後，變成一個行政外務壓力大，而且不友善的職場環境，甚至於因為學習方式的改變，也改變了師生之間的關係，這個是現實社會。教育的預算雖然不是憲法的明文規定，但是我們編列在23%這個數字，是一直長年達到這個目標的，所以它是非常龐大的，而且我也知道在教育預算當中有很大的比例是在人事的預算方面。但儘管如此，我們對於剛剛委員所提出的幾個不合理，該增加人的或者是增加福利的部分，像鐘點費的調整，我們還是願意很誠懇地去檢討，在現有的機制底下去做一個合理性的調整，我會請教育部儘速往這個方向想，來提出一個說明跟報告。"],["范委員雲：好，還是請院長也考慮，人力的部分也要增加……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["范委員雲：因為行政專職化，就目前學校裡面的行政工作，讓教師可以專心教書，我會覺得是根本解決的部分，要不然原本的勞務這麼的多，我們剛剛講到不管是霸凌、性平各方面，還有普特融合，其實增加了非常多的行政工作量，院長，還是希望您可以考慮好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們請教育部趕快往這個方向來做一個思考，跟委員再請教。"],["范委員雲：好，最後有關3C的部分，是我要辦的一個公聽會，我想這也是數位時代的共同議題，到時候也希望教育部一起來好好的回應。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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想請問一下院長您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料政府部門應該帶頭向臺德計畫開放資料作為訓練文本使用?"},{"start":124.261,"end":149.456,"text":"您是否認同?你剛剛已經提了啊,你的檔案是資料啊?沒有台灣元素的資料怎麼會有台灣的主權AI?是不是願意開放資料帶頭給他們嘛?你沒有資料訓練怎麼會有本土元素呢?剛開始開始我們會採取比較保守一點的,讓他建立一個基本的能力之後,再有對更多的資訊進來,在現在還在這個過程。"},{"start":151.755,"end":181.227,"text":"主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了我直接問院長您知道目前各部會加總起來向台德開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎?我們在政府開放資料的部分只要不牽涉到人權的議題很好嘛 都盡量開放嘛 帶頭開放嘛我們直接幫你查了台德官網目前光是列席的六個部會裡面就有兩個是沒有列在上面向台德開放資料的"},{"start":181.627,"end":194.285,"text":"分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院當然故宮最近有跟wikipedia有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分但是為什麼沒有列在台德資料合作單位上面呢?"},{"start":194.285,"end":197.469,"text":"台德作為請全國之力開發的這個模型"},{"start":198.01,"end":225.271,"text":"院長一聲下令要做主權AI,這個資料沒有提供完整的話,我們怎麼有辦法主權AI呢?至少應該要由政府部會帶頭,全面向台德,還有很多其他像民間,像台灣LLM也做得很好,去提供這些資料,本地的資料,我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。院長,為什麼我們這麼急切?同樣是亞洲國家,面臨語料相對稀少的困境,大家都是一樣的。"},{"start":226.112,"end":244.32,"text":"日本是請全國智力要開發的這個模型,參數量要達到1000億。 這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的。 結果我們台德開發今年4月市租的是80億,頂多還沒有辦法開放的是130億。 我們到底要怎麼去跟人家"},{"start":245.16,"end":260.702,"text":"一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢?政府曾經多次強調, 台德的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權。 但是呢,其實台德要取得這些語料,"},{"start":261.403,"end":284.082,"text":"不外乎兩種方式,第一種,我們訂定一個參數的目標,依照所需的資料量,逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料。 第二個,參考鄰國日本修正著作權法,讓大於人模型可以大以訓練。 請教院長,台德或者我們台灣在開發主權AI資料取得上,到底要採用哪一種方式?"},{"start":285.066,"end":286.307,"text":"你的資料量如果不夠的話,你模型複雜起來嗎?"},{"start":300.13,"end":324.833,"text":"模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配啦所以到底有沒有關嘛你不要在這裡欸那個沒有關真的是沒有關所以模型的複雜度所以我就算很少的資料我也可以讓參數很複雜你確定喔要確喔當然你複雜的模型需要用更多的資料沒有關係我們到底要採用哪一種方式啊我這題其實是要問院長啦院長我們到底是要編預算還是要開放還是要修法"},{"start":325.558,"end":345.326,"text":"我還是跟委員承認首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足我們在硬體的製造上面是可以領先的但是軟體的不足所以我們在急步的追趕那急步追趕總要有一個開始那現在是正在開始的過程當中我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後我認為第一個要先入門"},{"start":346.71,"end":348.331,"text":"三、10月11日上午9時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":368.885,"end":386.19,"text":"大大的不足我承認大大的不足但是我說這是一個起步報告委員我們在台德的應用推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部分希望委員能夠支持那是有編資料購買的預算嗎有如果需要授權的部分我們會編的多少"},{"start":389.423,"end":410.601,"text":"總數我告訴你了,主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦,這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算,我們來看一下,接下來我相信就說起步嘛,我覺得我們說不要講說台灣世界中心的時候就喊很大聲啦,然後呢我們要編預算要做事的時候就說我們還在起步,但是行政院還是有做事,我們也是予以鼓勵啦,你們有說要提出什麼?"},{"start":411.221,"end":422.37,"text":"促進資料創新利用發展條例請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權修改一些相關的法令跟AI訓練使用有沒有"},{"start":425.388,"end":446.823,"text":"我們現在正在進行當中,我們會朝這個方向努力。院長,我們上一次總質詢部部有AI是您喊出來的,結果我們今天發現部部正AI,要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲,結果要規劃計畫的時候每個人都說這是誰的問題誰的問題,我們等一下來看,如果我們沒有完整的資料,我們的語言模型就是營養不良。"},{"start":447.943,"end":449.184,"text":"這會牽涉到什麼?"},{"start":449.184,"end":462.228,"text":"韌性的問題,這是文化的韌性。 我希望部長、院長能夠給一個期限,明確的期限。 何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題?"},{"start":462.228,"end":466.209,"text":"給一個期限。 你說要追趕,我們總要有期限嘛。 追趕100年也是不追趕啊。"},{"start":467.265,"end":495.067,"text":"跟委員說明我覺得一步來我們從首長副首長到三級機關的首長我們都訓練了他們進入到AI情境的這個過程我們的人種都他們要訓練我同意但是院長的方針要出來我能不能給一個6個月的期限在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案一定會有進展但進展的程度是不是成如委員所需要所期待的我們來努力"},{"start":496.488,"end":499.99,"text":"好了,我想除了資料,還有一個很重要的是什麼?"},{"start":499.99,"end":502.012,"text":"資金吶!"},{"start":502.012,"end":511.878,"text":"這已經不是文化韌性的問題,是國家韌性,經濟韌性的問題。 請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的精創台灣方案,預算規模是多少嗎?"},{"start":513.564,"end":539.056,"text":"我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3000億但是我們第一年今年的這個預算是編列大概155億那明年會成長到183億因為每年都會有新的案子會進來所以會逐年提升到每年300億院長我先問您,您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠啊?"},{"start":539.716,"end":546.307,"text":"有人預估,2027年要到千億美元,2025、26可能要到百億美元。 日本是我們的12倍,你覺得夠不夠啊?"},{"start":547.571,"end":573.453,"text":"我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列當中如果有任何的突發或是需求國家財政允許我們當然有計畫是可以再調整但目前我們只能做這樣的編列現在確實AI突發的狀況很多所以我們現在預算總預算還有修改的機會希望院長可以好好修改一下那個主委您稍等今天我要跟院長好好交流一下"},{"start":574.193,"end":601.394,"text":"您的部會提出來的相關的數字您自己要非常的清楚我們要有一個算力的預估規劃我們才能夠抓出預算結果呢我們光看算力先從100PF到116PF然後說2027年要280要480我告訴院長啊2027年如果是480PF連2024年的日本都趕不上你還說要什麼亞洲前三再來我們看資金啦齁"},{"start":602.094,"end":626.094,"text":"我們的資金預算呢一遍再遍我老實講啊這一本36頁1331的預算主委我直接在質詢的時候他跟我說沒有看過然後呢他還說行政院的這個這個方案僅供參考指示方案我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎如果公案出10年3105號什麼都不用做"},{"start":626.554,"end":642.986,"text":"報告委員我不是說僅供參考,因為方案之後要有計劃,我們要細究的時候你說只是方案啊?不是不是,我們編預算一定有計劃。根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們,開出來我們就要付錢嗎?"},{"start":644.537,"end":660.005,"text":"我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。你到現在還是在講空話啊,你知道這是空的嗎?你是不是又要再追加?你追加可以啊,講清楚啊。方案是政府的願景,我們未來推動的方向。你已經寫出來是多少錢,就是多少錢。"},{"start":661.021,"end":678.65,"text":"我跟院長交流一下我理解您多次公開表示對總預算被退回表示遺憾但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案"},{"start":679.502,"end":690.666,"text":"我也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權。光是國科會主委對外談論114年精創計畫。結果呢?我們這個剛剛都看過了。他先講了200億。再來呢?上週國科會的業務報告寫183億。今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億。結果呢?我們要資料出來是多少?90.49是國科會的。我先講,你讓我講清楚。"},{"start":708.223,"end":712.945,"text":"我們覺得非常離譜,因為為什麼你們會有各種數字不同?"},{"start":713.547,"end":739.334,"text":"因為你們所有的計畫名稱都不一樣我直接列出來7個部會14個不同的名稱我現在要讓院長知道你又是叫晶片驅動你又是叫創新驅動你又是晶片創新又是挑戰計畫你自己都列不出來讓我們立法院怎麼監督啊我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的他名稱可能會調整但是都在我們的方案裡面"},{"start":740.65,"end":763.099,"text":"10票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事?預算法第39條分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少?你都要列得很清楚啊!我們計畫書裡面都會有列那今年的預算155億,明年是183億因為我目標200億但是在行政院審查"},{"start":763.459,"end":777.911,"text":"你現在要變回183啊!你剛剛說155啊!那是今年的預算啊!明年的變成是183啊!所以183就是183,又不會再變了?不會變了。你們裡面都找出來,等一下,那院長我要告訴你,這183億裡面是7個部會的預算。"},{"start":781.54,"end":807.477,"text":"為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢?為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢?那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算換進去啊?因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。好嘛,你看嘛,你到底是國科會還是國發會,你們到底誰講什麼啊?國科會編列科技預算。國科會編列科技預算,那成效是不是應該要國科會來承擔啊?各部會一起承擔。"},{"start":810.722,"end":811.384,"text":"院長你聽到了齁?"},{"start":814.309,"end":818.29,"text":"所以院長您的角色很重要我要先講從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後"},{"start":843.695,"end":859.775,"text":"有國科會、數法部、經濟部、國發會。 結果呢,我們光要講結果的時候,4年又要推動20萬名, 算力要提升全球前三。 結果呢,這個,大家互相推諉啊,講到AI人人都要分一點預算,我們剛剛看到了7個部會啊,"},{"start":861.036,"end":874.348,"text":"結果呢,講到KPI的時候每個人都說是別人的責任,今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席一個,給所有全國人民一個明確的答案。究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的?主導兼主責啊?你預算是預算?"},{"start":880.857,"end":891.845,"text":"你跟他講的也有經濟部也有其他的部會都有 但是整個科技預算 科技預算的整合就是在國科會"},{"start":893.26,"end":908.173,"text":"所以我們會協助所有的部會。那你覺得這樣子分錢的是一個結果大家都落跑?這是對的預算分配的方法嗎?行政院的組織就是國防部主委本身是政務委員。那我丟一題給院長,你就會發現一個很微妙的地方。我們問了所有的部會,4年20萬AA人才。"},{"start":914.739,"end":942.908,"text":"到底明年要培育出多少AI人才每一個部會你剛剛講了嘛四個部會要共同做KPI嘛要有結果嘛結果明年要多少人他有國外的進來的學生的人才有國內培養這整個湊起來是12萬打包票院長你得到答案啦每一個人都在逃啦不要步步有AI結果是步步蹭AI啦要院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了要發揮領導統一真正做出主權AI我當然負最後的責任"},{"start":946.403,"end":946.584,"text":"謝謝葛委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:02:22 - 11:18:11","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155471","gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時2分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葛委員好，您辛苦了。"],["葛委員如鈞：您比較辛苦，大家都辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：我習慣了。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們副院長、主席也很辛苦，大家都非常辛苦。科技不分藍綠，所有的人也都非常關注科技發展，今年9月的時候，行政院召開經濟發展委員會，您提出了主權AI，因為不分藍、綠、白，所以我把您放在第一頁，本席深感認同，但是想請教一下院長，您認為要實現主權AI，政府的首要任務到底是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不僅提出主權AI，我還提出了民主AI，即AI不能侵害人權。主權AI大家說就是要有臺灣元素、我們在地的文化，政府一定要想辦法先建立一個相當大的資料庫，讓所有的臺灣元素進到裡面來共同學習之後，才能反映臺灣真正的國情跟民情。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好！所以要發展主權AI，不外乎就是資料啦！我們政府在112年4月正式啟動TAIDE可信任生成式AI對話引擎的計畫，想請問一下院長，您是否認同除了涉及國家機密的資料外，政府部門應該帶頭向TAIDE計畫開放資料，作為訓練文本使用，您是否認同？您剛剛已經提了，你的答案就是要啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：TAIDE是一個剛剛在起步的大型……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有臺灣元素的資料，怎麼會有臺灣的主權AI？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，它是一個剛剛起步的大型語言模型，我們還在建置當中，那目前……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是願意開放資料，帶頭給他們？你沒有資料訓練，怎麼會有本土元素呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛開始我們會採取比較保守一點的方式，讓它建立一個基本的能力之後，再讓更多的資訊進來，現在還在這個過程。"],["葛委員如鈞：主權AI已經沒有保守的空間跟機會了，我直接問院長，您知道目前各部會加總起來，向TAIDE開放資料的比例大概有多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這應該主委比較清楚。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在政府開放資料的部分，只要不牽涉到人權的議題……"],["葛委員如鈞：很好嘛！都儘量開放嘛！帶頭開放嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們直接幫你查了，TAIDE的官網，目前光是列席的6個部會裡面，就有2個是沒有列在上面向TAIDE開放資料的，分別是核能安全委員會以及國立故宮博物院，當然故宮最近有跟Wikipedia、有跟文化部做釋出資料的部分，但是為什麼沒有列在TAIDE資料合作單位上面呢？TAIDE作為傾全國之力開發的模型，院長一聲下令要做主權AI，這個資料沒有提供完整的話，我們怎麼有辦法做主權AI呢？至少應該要由政府部會帶頭全面向TAIDE，還有很多其他民間的，像Taiwan LLM也做得很好，去提供這些資料、本地的資料，我們才能夠踏出主權AI的第一步。","院長，為什麼我們這麼急切？同樣是亞洲國家，面臨語料相對稀少的困境，大家都是一樣的，日本是傾全國之力要開發這個模型，參數量要達到1,000億，這個參數量跟資料量其實是有關聯的，結果我們TAIDE開發今年4月釋出的頂多是80億，還沒有辦法開放的是130億，我們到底要怎麼去跟人家一起來競賽、一起來比賽、一起來競爭呢？政府曾經多次強調，TAIDE的訓練資料都有確保合法取得版權，但是其實TAIDE為了要取得這些語料，不外乎兩種方式，第一種，我們訂定一個參數的目標，依照所需的資料量，逐年編列預算來購買合法的資料；第二個，參考鄰國日本修正著作權法，讓大語言模型可以大量訓練。請教院長，TAIDE或者我們臺灣在開發主權AI的資料取得上，到底要採用哪一種方式？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，參數的數目不是跟資料量、訓練資料有關，而是跟模型的複雜度有關。至於資料的……"],["葛委員如鈞：你的資料量如果不夠的話，模型複雜得起來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：模型複雜跟訓練資料當然是會搭配，應該要搭配……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以到底有沒有關嘛？你不要在這裡……"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個沒有關，真的是沒有關。"],["葛委員如鈞：真的沒有關？好，我們現在錄起來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是模型的複雜度。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我就算用很少的資料，也可以讓參數很複雜，你確定喔！要確定喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然複雜的模型需要用更多的資料。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係，我們到底要採用哪一種方式？我這一題其實是要問院長，院長，我們到底是要編預算，還是要開放，還是要修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是跟委員承認，首先我們都看到我們在軟體上的不足，我們在硬體的製造上面是可以、領先的，但是軟體不足，所以我們在急步地追趕，但急步追趕總要有個開始，現在是正在開始的過程當中，我們先建立一個基本的東西出來之後，我認為第一個要先入門，再來要訓練，我們才能慢慢調整……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我現在……因為我們現在在討論明年的預算了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們明年不可能不追趕嘛！所以我們到底有沒有要編預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們明年的預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：我幫院長看過了，預算書裡面，我們TAIDE只有1.4億……"],["卓院長榮泰：明年的預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：1.4億還包含開發，你是要怎麼買資料？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟委員剛剛說的日本的預算規模比起來，我們當然大大地不足……"],["葛委員如鈞：日本的預算是12倍。"],["卓院長榮泰：我承認大大地不足，但是我說這是一個起步。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們在TAIDE的應用、推廣的部分有編列預算在其他的部會，希望委員能夠支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：那要列清楚啦！有編資料購買的預算嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，如果需要授權的部分，我們會編預算。"],["葛委員如鈞：編了多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：總數我……"],["葛委員如鈞：我告訴你啦，主委你回去看你自己也找不到啦！這樣子我們沒有辦法審預算。我們來看一下，接下來我相信就是說起步嘛，我覺得我們不要講說臺灣是世界中心的時候就喊得很大聲啦，然後我們要編預算、要做事的時候就說我們還在起步，但是行政院還是有做事，我們也是予以鼓勵，你們有說要提出「促進資料創新利用發展條例」，請問院長草案的大致方向有沒有要參考日本模式來開放著作權，修改一些相關的法令供AI訓練使用，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：草案的研究請主委……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在進行當中，我們會朝這個方向努力，因為這還需要跟……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，我們上一次總質詢，部部有AI是您喊出來的，結果我們今天發現部部蹭AI啊！要喊AI大家都喊得很大聲啦，結果要規劃計畫的時候，每個人都說這是誰的問題、誰的問題，我們等一下來看，如果我們沒有完整的資料，我們的語言模型就是營養不良，這會牽涉到什麼？韌性的問題，這是文化的韌性，我希望院長能夠給一個明確的期限，何時能夠著手處理AI訓練資料的版權問題？給一個期限，你說要追趕，我們總要有期限嘛！追趕100年也是追趕啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員說明，我覺得一步一步來，我們從首長、副首長到三級機關的首長，我們都訓練他們進入到AI情境的過程，人總都舉辦過訓練課程。"],["葛委員如鈞：他們要訓練，我同意，但是院長的方針要出來，能不能給一個6個月的期限，在AI資料版權的部分提供一個完整的戰略方案，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定會有進展，但進展的程度是不是誠如委員所需要的……"],["葛委員如鈞：總要開始做嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所期待的，我們來努力看看，一定會有進展。"],["葛委員如鈞：承諾好不好？好啦！我想除了資料，還有一個很重要的是什麼？資金，這已經不是文化韌性的問題，是國家韌性、經濟韌性的問題。請問一下院長知道發展主權AI高度相關的晶創臺灣方案的預算規模是多少嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們這個方案當初規劃是10年3,000億，但是我們第一年（今年）的預算是編列大概155億，明年會成長到183億……"],["葛委員如鈞：又有新數字155億……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個是要逐年，因為每年都會有新的案子進來，所以會逐年提升到每年……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，我先問您，您覺得這樣的預算規模夠不夠？有人預估2027年要到千億美元，2025、26年可能要到百億美元，日本是我們的十二倍，你覺得夠不夠啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只能……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：我是問院長，不好意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只能先衡量國家財政的狀況做這樣階段性的編列，當中如果有任何的突發或者需求，國家財政允許，我們當然有計畫是可以再調整，但目前我們只能做這樣的編列。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在確實AI突發的狀況很多……"],["卓院長榮泰：很多、很多。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在總預算還有修改的機會，希望院長可以好好修改一下。","主委您稍等，今天我要跟院長好好交流一下，您的部會提出來的相關數字，您自己要非常的清楚"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們要有一個算力的預估、規劃，我們才能夠抓出預算，結果呢？我們光看算力，先從100 Petaflops到116 Petaflops，然後說2027年要280、要480，我告訴院長，2027年如果是480 Petaflops，連2024年的日本都趕不上，你還說要亞洲前三。","再來，我們看資金，我們的資金預算一變再變，老實講，這一本36頁1,330億的預算，主委直接在我質詢的時候跟我說沒有看過，然後他還說行政院的這個方案僅供參考、只是方案，我們還能夠相信您要打造主權AI的決心嗎？如果光喊出10年3,000億的口號什麼都不用做……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我不是說僅供參考……"],["葛委員如鈞：這就是支票，你說只是方案啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為方案之後要有計畫……"],["葛委員如鈞：你說只是方案啊！我們要細究的時候，你說只是方案啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是、不是，我們編預算一定有計畫。"],["葛委員如鈞：你根本就是在開一個空頭支票給我們……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是。"],["葛委員如鈞：你開出來我們就要付錢嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們預算一定要跟隨著計畫執行的方案。"],["葛委員如鈞：你到現在還是在講空話，難道這是空的嗎？你是不是又要再追加？你追加可以啊！講清楚啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：方案是政府的願景，是我們未來推動的方向，但是每……"],["葛委員如鈞：你已經寫出來是多少錢就是多少錢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我們明年的預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：我告訴各位，這樣1頁74億，1張紙74億，我跟院長交流一下，我理解您多次公開表示，對總預算被退回表示遺憾，但是您所率領的內閣官員帶頭藐視行政院所核定的方案，也完全不尊重立法院監督預算的職權，光是國科會主委對外談論114年晶創計畫，結果他先講了200億，再來，上週國科會的業務報告寫183億，今天在現場給我丟出一個新的數字155億，結果我們要資料，出來是多少？90.49億，是國科會的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：155億是今年……"],["葛委員如鈞：我先講，你讓我講清楚，我們覺得非常離譜，為什麼你們會有各種不同的數字？因為你們所有計畫案名稱都不一樣，我直接列出來，7個部會，14個不同的名稱，我現在要讓院長知道，你又是叫晶片驅動，又是叫創新驅動，又是晶片創新，又是挑戰計畫，你自己都列不出來，那我們立法院怎麼監督啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們各部會編這個預算是隨著各部會施政的目的，它名稱可能會調整，但是都在我們的方案裡面……"],["葛委員如鈞：支票上面就是要寫清楚你到底要做什麼事。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們計畫……"],["葛委員如鈞：預算法第三十九條規定，分年列出來的計畫就是要有計畫每一年的預算有多少，你都要列得很清楚啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們計畫書裡面都會有列，今年的預算155億，明年是183億，因為我們目標是200億，但是在行政院審查……"],["葛委員如鈞：你現在又變回183億啊？你剛剛是說155億啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：那是今年的預算啊，明年編的是183啊。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以183就是183，不會再變了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會變了。"],["葛委員如鈞：你們裡面都找出來……等一下，院長，那我要告訴你，這183億是七個部會的預算，為什麼是國科會的主委來講183呢？為什麼是國科會的主委來講200呢？那是不是每一個部會都把其他部會預算放進去啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：因位委員講的是晶創計畫，晶創計畫是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為科技預算是國科會負責編列的。"],["卓院長榮泰：科技預算是國科會在主辦的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好嘛，你看嘛，到底是國科會還是國發會，你們到底誰講什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會編列科技預算。"],["葛委員如鈞：國科會編列科技預算，那成效是不是應該要由國科會來承擔啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：各部會一起承擔。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，你聽到了喔！院長，你聽到了喔！科技的預算國科會來編列，然後責任由其他部會來承擔……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會協助行政院。"],["葛委員如鈞：這是你要的部會首長嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，國科會吳主委他本身也是政委，他就有統合各部會的職責跟責任。"],["葛委員如鈞：到底AI產業……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個他講的也沒錯，各部會在執行之後還是要由政委來做一個統合。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以院長您的角色很重要，我要先講，從今年9月您指出AI產業很重要以後，有國科會、數發部、經濟部、國發會，而我們光要講結果的時候，四年內要培養20萬名，算力要提升至全球前三，結果呢？大家互相推諉啊！講到AI，人人都要分一點預算，我們剛剛看到有七個部會，但講到KPI的時候，每個人都說是別人的責任。今天院長你可不可以在這裡給本席、給所有全國人民一個明確的答案，究竟五大信賴產業中的AI產業是哪一個部會主導的？主導兼主責啊！預算是預算，結果是結果，到底是哪一個部會？"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛講的也有經濟部，也有其他的部會，都有，但是整個科技預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：這樣你的主權AI怎麼主得起來啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：科技預算的整合就是在國科會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們會協助所有的部會。"],["葛委員如鈞：你覺得這樣分錢的是一個，結果大家都落跑，這是對的預算分配方法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院的組織就是國科會主委本身是政務委員，政務委員就負統合、協調各部會的責任。"],["葛委員如鈞：那我丟一題給院長，你就會發現一個很微妙的地方，我們問了所有的部會，四年要有20萬的AI人才，到底明年要培育出多少AI人才？每一個部會，你剛剛講了嘛，四個部會要共同負責KPI嘛、要有結果嘛！結果明年要多少人？"],["卓院長榮泰：這12萬有國外進來的人才、有國內培養，這整個湊起來是12萬跟8萬。"],["葛委員如鈞：我打包票，院長你得不到答案啦！每一個人都在逃啦，不要部部有AI，結果是部部蹭AI啦！院長已經把主權AI綁在一起了，要發揮領導統御，真正做出主權AI。"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然負最後的責任。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是南投市光榮里社區發展協會的好朋友，謝謝你們，我們在此歡迎你們到立法院參訪。","下一位我們請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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"end":317.4,"text":"在這966家裡面的61.88%,理論上升國中是不需要考試的,為什麼反而是國小補習班最多呢?"},{"start":319.309,"end":319.809,"text":"我現在在跟你講的是文理補習班"},{"start":343.34,"end":346.523,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這我想會後我來更進一步來瞭解"},{"start":370.08,"end":388.456,"text":"那當然還有下個禮拜教育文化委員會要辦一個3C產品的公聽會那我認為呢教育部作為主管機關不能沒有立場要想一個對多數學生好又讓老師可以好好管教的辦法這一點本席也在這裡提到"},{"start":388.916,"end":416.789,"text":"謝謝委員提醒事實上對3C的使用我們已經看到很多國際的一些研究的一些報告他會對青少年產生一些比較多的壓力跟情緒上的所以本席希望就是在公聽會之前是不是能夠有相對應的一些資料可以讓我們參考然後可以來研究然後發表意見那接下來本席要再問的一個問題其實是教育"},{"start":417.529,"end":429.468,"text":"更根本的問題因為你要有好的教育你必須要有好的老師院長我跟您報告今年最大的問題是什麼教師荒"},{"start":430.475,"end":451.302,"text":"沒有老師啊 大家都不願意去當老師這是我們國家要面臨的重大國家發展的問題沒有人願意去當老師 那我們還怎麼談教育呢我們現在談的什麼教育升級要友善 然後要讓小朋友能夠有更好的教育環境 這變成是一個空談啊"},{"start":452.386,"end":472.377,"text":"要跟委員報告這一個裡邊也要拜託委員因為施肢因為我們現在的培育的施肢量部長部長我可不可以也提議院長針對這個教師荒可以提出您的看法跟建議嗎?您有察覺到有這個問題嗎?這個一個連鎖性的問題就是我們在少子化之後學生減少了"},{"start":479.215,"end":490.924,"text":"所以對校師的需求在各個地方呈現出來不同的需求狀態讓教師想要從事這個行業的人他變成他沒有辦法在一個穩定的未來的工作上面他去做一些"},{"start":491.408,"end":498.79,"text":"其實部長你真應該感謝院長給你這麼大的信任其實我想這個問題是剛剛院長講的真的是一個連鎖性的問題這個問題非常多面向第一就是剛剛我們講的108課綱他備課多資源少"},{"start":521.016,"end":547.754,"text":"所以很多人不願意當老師。 第二是加幾滴又耗費心力,沒有這個優厚的條件。 然後第三是行政工作太繁雜了,偏離了教學專業。 第四,性平生疏平傳,老師是非常疲於奔命的。 老師,校長告訴我他說現在老師不是感覺不像在教書都在辦案。"},{"start":549.155,"end":576.635,"text":"一下子要辦性平案一下子要辦霸凌案等等所以第五就是我講的校園職場霸凌職場不友善等其實教師歡跟我們多繳少領延後退的年改制度也非常的有關係包括說無處適從的教育政策跟不夠優厚的調薪政策若不改變明年我們一樣招不夠老師部長你有沒有一個具體的辦法"},{"start":578.541,"end":604.437,"text":"各位委員報告我想怎麼樣提供老師一個更好的一個教學環境一直都是我們在努力的包含行政的減量事實上教育部這些年來也做了相當多的努力問題是行政減量就沒有看到成效啊教育部在減少行政減量的時候也沒有獲得充分的支持啊心力消遂所以反而地方也在增量"},{"start":607.038,"end":612.38,"text":"導師、特教師應該提高佳績,增加投入的人力,您同意嗎?"},{"start":625.622,"end":646.258,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝院長。所以呢,我本席在這裡,其實呢,我當然很重視學生的受教權,但是我們同時也要重視老師的榮譽感。就是說,他現在當老師已經不像以前那麼受尊重,然後這個待遇又這麼差,然後工作又這麼的繁雜。"},{"start":647.039,"end":647.079,"text":"主席"},{"start":660.435,"end":660.995,"text":"市長我們在整個制度上30年的一個"},{"start":678.988,"end":679.668,"text":"請委員相信我﹖我相信﹖"},{"start":700.819,"end":701.319,"text":"老舊校舍改善問題"},{"start":715.985,"end":737.467,"text":"就是,院長看一下,這是我們雲林縣非常多的50年以上的老舊校舍都已經鋼筋外漏、樑柱嚴重歸裂、瓦舍雨遮都隨時有可能掉落的危險。那院長你覺得這種情況是不是有影響到學生上學的安全呢?當然是有。"},{"start":738.087,"end":765.003,"text":"是吧,真的非常危急,你可以想像說假設是在上學的時候,在這樣子的一個建築物裡面上學,發生地震怎麼辦?我們不允許這樣的危險發生在上學。是,所以本席要特別拜託院長,現在目前雲林縣至少還有45棟這樣子的教學樓,那扣除不常使用的,"},{"start":766.022,"end":794.425,"text":"還有26棟這26棟呢假設都要拆除重建的話至少要花3、40億但是呢雲林縣今年只有分到1.4億1.4億代表說不要說45棟都要改26棟最常使用目前平凡在使用的要改的話要整個修下完成要30年"},{"start":796.448,"end":801.05,"text":"院長您覺得會不會太久了?從98年到111年我們編了1300多億已經加強補強了一六千多棟那我們覺得這個還是不夠所以在114年到118年也持續編了350億會在這幾個年度當中來實施我們希望能夠有效但是我還是認為"},{"start":821.12,"end":827.325,"text":"三、五十一還是不夠,我還想透過其他的方式,用民間的力量來完成,看能不能達到。"},{"start":835.251,"end":858.295,"text":"包括說我們調閱了氣象局的這個地震顯示圖。 預估30年內會發生6點6級以上的大地震區域之除了花東以外最有可能的就是雲嘉區。 所以地震如果假設在這個老舊校舍的這個區域密集發生的話真的非常的危險。 所以呢每年你們今年只編了37.5億要改善這個"},{"start":861.636,"end":886.113,"text":"老舊校舍絕對是不足的,而且雲林縣只有分配到1.4億,真的是太少了,是不是請院長可以加碼,去補足這個加快這個改善的速度。我們明年度開始的350億就是希望地方能夠提出最強烈的需求,我們按照它的危險程度能夠依序來進行,來保障師生學童的安全。"},{"start":886.773,"end":891.336,"text":"我們最近會通過行政院的院會提出一個完整的草案來送交大院來審理。"},{"start":909.847,"end":929.659,"text":"當然這對臺灣的體育界是一個大事,益助更多的資源在體育發展是好事,本席都贊同,但是明年的預算規模……好謝謝,謝謝張委員,謝謝卓院長。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:46:28 - 11:02:04","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155470","gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時46分）副院長，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長你辛苦啦，從早上到現在一直不斷電。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，張委員好，謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想要請教卓院長，你了不了解108課綱？108課綱到現在已經實施五年了，假設您了解的話，總分100分，您覺得目前大概可以得到幾分呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不方便在這邊直接打分數，但是我覺得教育是一直要翻新、創新的，我們應該融入更多的元素在裡面，現在已經執行下來，我們往後會繼續討論新的發展課綱。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席想要給院長一些建議，目前有一個數據我不曉得院長知不知道，108課綱實施到現在五年多，文理補習班增加了966家。院長，你知道現在全國的補習班大概有幾家嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該上萬家吧！"],["張委員嘉郡：對，上萬家，總共有17,552家，那你知道現在全臺灣超商有幾家嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：超商那更多啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：超商才一萬三千多家，所以現在是一個大補習的時代，補習班比超商還多，多了將近四千家。這很奇怪，少子化的時代孩子明明在變少，為什麼補習班卻比超商還要多，到底是為什麼呢？是不是要請部長一起來回答這個問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們改變的教育制度就是因為大家望子成龍、望女成鳳，這是父母共同的心願，我們希望有多元的發展，讓他隨他的興趣、性向去做多元的發展，這樣會比較好。"],["張委員嘉郡：我相信在座有孩子的，可能也有當阿公阿嬤的，大家都很關心孩子的教育，所以就很不能理解這個數據，外語補習班從108課綱上路之前，到現在已經少了500家，然後技藝類的補習班少了200家，唯獨文理類補習班增加了966家，部長您知道原因嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：現在確實每一個小孩子都是每一個家庭的寶，他更是國家人才的來源。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然。"],["鄭部長英耀：所以大家對教育非常重視，希望對他發展的過程能夠有更多的支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，但是您身為教育部長，您不覺得很疑惑嗎？為什麼108課綱實施之後，會增加這麼多的補習班呢？所以就證明了學校有所不足嘛，否則為什麼會增加這麼多補習班？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想108課綱的整個大方向，基本上到現在也是跟WEF（世界經濟論壇）所要培養的未來產業及未來人才想像的圖像是相符合的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，那您有看到學校的不足嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：學校在這個部分確實……跟委員報告……"],["張委員嘉郡：如果學校沒有不足的話，為什麼會增加這麼多的補習班呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，譬如108課綱我們對高中職的學生希望他有更多選修的課，我們的老師在過去的專業……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個本席也支持，本席也支持，就是希望學生學習的廣度跟深度……"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，因為像現在全臺灣有兩百六十幾所學校……"],["張委員嘉郡：您希望增加它的廣度、增加它的深度，可是帶來的問題就是家長對於學生學習的內容不確定，所以造成了家長恐慌……"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我想……"],["張委員嘉郡：他會覺得如果不送去補習班的話，會不會沒有學到？因為它沒有一個固定的版本。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們現在整個團隊在做的努力，就像剛才我跟委員報告，已經有兩百六十幾所學校跟大學合作，大學透過AP課程、大學預修的課程，大學老師到高中去上課，或者高中的學生到大學來修課，事實上許多……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個本席都不反對，我都覺得應該是在朝好的方向前進……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，而且我們高中也開始在國外的高中有雙聯。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是本席現在的意思是在提醒你，有問題的地方你一定要去重視……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會努力來精進。"],["張委員嘉郡：否則目前文理補習班增加這麼多，跟我們的教育理念是背道而馳的啊……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["張委員嘉郡：而且我現在不是在跟你講高中，我跟你講還有一個奇怪的數據，招收國小生的補習班占這966家裡面的61.88%，理論上升國中是不需要考試的，為什麼反而是國小補習班最多呢？是不是沒辦法回答，因為你也不曉得原因？但是本席現在就是要提醒您，身為部長，您是不是可以去查明這個原因？為什麼國小的補習班反而比國中、高中的還多？"],["鄭部長英耀：國小我想一些是語言上，另外可能更多是才藝，在音樂、美術、繪畫……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在在跟你講的是文理補習班，你說才藝、課後輔導班，其實現在很多學校、國小本身就有課輔班了，為什麼家長還是要把小朋友送去文理補習班？這真的值得我們去思考。因為本席也有小小孩，所以我跟其他很多的家長都會有這樣子的疑慮……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，會後我來更進一步了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，下個禮拜教育及文化委員會要辦一個3C產品的公聽會，我認為教育部作為主管機關不能沒有立場，要想一個對多數學生好、又讓老師可以好好管教的辦法，這一點本席也在這裡提醒。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，事實上對3C的使用，我們已經看到很多國際研究的報告，它會對青少年產生比較多的壓力跟情緒上的……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以本席希望在公聽會之前，是不是能夠有相對應的一些資料讓我們參考，然後可以來研究、發表意見？","接下來本席要再問的一個問題其實是教育更根本的問題，因為要有好的教育，必須要有好的老師。院長，我跟您報告，今年最大的問題是什麼？教師荒，沒有老師，大家都不願意去當老師，這是我們國家要面臨的重大國家發展問題。沒有人願意去當老師，我們還怎麼談教育呢？我們現在談什麼教育升級、要友善、要讓小朋友能夠有更好的教育環境，這變成是一個空談啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：要跟委員報告，這裡邊也要拜託委員，因為我們現在培育的師資量，現在……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我可不可以也請院長針對教師荒提出看法跟建議嗎？您有察覺到有這個問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個連鎖性的問題，就是我們在少子化之後，學生減少了，所以對教師的需求在各個地方呈現出來不同的需求狀態，讓想要從事教師這個行業的人，變成他沒有辦法在一個穩定的、未來的工作上面去做一些更多的學習投入，但我想教育部一定會有很妥善的方式來引導青年朋友進到教育這個工作行列來。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，其實部長真應該感謝院長給你這麼大的信任，這個問題就像剛剛院長講的，這是一個連鎖性的問題，這個問題非常多面向，第一，就是剛剛我們講的108課綱，備課多、資源少，所以很多人不願意當老師。第二，加給低又耗費心力，沒有優厚的條件。第三，行政工作太繁雜了，偏離了教學專業。第四，性平申訴頻傳，老師是非常疲於奔命的，校長告訴我現在老師感覺不像在教書，都在辦案，一下子要辦性平案，一下子要辦霸凌案等等。第五就是我講的校園職場霸凌、職場不友善等，其實教師荒與多繳少領延後退的年改制度也非常有關係，包括無所適從的教育政策及不夠優厚的調薪政策，若不改變，明年我們一樣招不夠老師，部長，你有沒有一個具體的辦法？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我想怎麼樣提供老師一個更好的教學環境，一直都是我們在努力的，包含行政減量，事實上教育部這些年來也做了相當多的努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：問題是行政減量就沒有看到成效啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，教育部在行政減量的時候，地方政府也基於每一個小孩子都是家裡的寶……"],["張委員嘉郡：教師要輔導管教學生，也沒有獲得充分的支持，心力交瘁……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以反而地方也在增量。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席認為針對教師、導師、特教師應該提高加給，增加投入人力，您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們給老師一個更好的教學環境，包含待遇上的一些考量，這是整體的……"],["張委員嘉郡：您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然，我們會從那個方向來努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝部長、謝謝院長。本席當然很重視學生的受教權，但是我們同時也要重視老師的榮譽感，現在當老師已經不像以前那麼受尊重，待遇又這麼差，工作又這麼繁雜，他們沒有辦法專心教育學生，這是我們教育非常大的問題，請部長、院長一定要高度重視這個問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝，委員已經看到了這些問題，我們就有義務要提出解方出來，我知道教育部過去已經在研究很多增加教師來源、訓練、培訓的過程，這個部分請教育部再積極的制定計畫。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在整個制度上30年的師資培育政策，我們事實上內部已經開過好幾次會議，會再系統性的提出政策上的一些檢討。"],["張委員嘉郡：加油！否則明年的缺口會更大，不要到時候我們空有學校，沒有老師，我們還談什麼教育呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我從來不擔心。"],["張委員嘉郡：你不擔心，我擔心啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：而且我希望在未來……"],["張委員嘉郡：你不擔心就是我的擔心了，你也太可愛了吧！你不擔心？"],["鄭部長英耀：請委員相信我，我是有信心的。"],["張委員嘉郡：你有信心，但你不能不擔心。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們臺灣教育的世界評比都是名列前茅。"],["張委員嘉郡：接下來我問完再讓你答，好不好？另外，本席要請教的是老舊校舍改善的問題，請院長看一下，雲林縣有非常多50年以上的老舊校舍都已經鋼筋外露、樑柱嚴重龜裂、瓦舍雨遮都隨時有可能掉落的危險，院長，你覺得這種情況是不是有影響到學生上學的安全？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是有。"],["張委員嘉郡：是吧！真的非常危急，你可以想像假設是在上學的時候，在這樣的建築物裡面上學發生地震怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不允許這樣的危險發生在校園裡面。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以本席要特別拜託院長，目前雲林縣至少還有45棟這樣子的教學樓，扣除不常使用的還有26棟，這26棟假設都要拆除重建的話，至少要花三、四十億，但是雲林縣今年只有分到1.4億，不要說45棟都要改，連26棟最常使用、目前頻繁在使用的要改的話，整個修繕完成要30年，院長，您覺得會不會太久了？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以跟委員報告，從98年到111年我們編了一千三百多億，已經加強補強六千多棟，我們覺得這個還是不夠，所以在114年到118年也持續編了350億，會在這幾個年度當中來實施，我們希望能夠有效，但我還是認為要全面整修，350億還是不夠，我還想透過其他的方式，借用民間的力量來完成，看能不能達到。"],["張委員嘉郡：是！這一點要特別拜託院長，也邀請院長到我們雲林來看一下，老舊校舍真的非常危險，包括我們調閱了氣象局的地震潛勢圖，預估30年內會發生6級以上的大地震區域，除了花東以外，最有可能的就是雲嘉區，假設地震在老舊校舍區域密集發生的話，真的非常危險，所以你們今年只編了37.5億要改善老舊校舍，絕對是不足的，而且雲林縣只有分配到1.4億，真的是太少了，是不是請院長可以加碼去補足，加快改善的速度？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們明年度開始的350億，就是希望地方能夠提出最強烈的需求，我們按照其危險程度能夠依序來進行，以保障師生、學童的安全。"],["張委員嘉郡：我也希望中央跟地方兩邊要一起努力，趕快給這些學童一個安全的教育環境。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["張委員嘉郡：最後，我剛剛也想要問一下運動部，運動部目前的期程進程如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們最近會通過行政院的院會，提出一個完整的草案送交大院來審議。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然這對臺灣的體育界是一個大事，挹注更多的資源在體育發展是好事，本席都贊同，但是明年的預算規模200億，請問只差了30億，到底「升部」有什麼不一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：其意義、精神完全不一樣，全新的運動部。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝張委員、謝謝卓院長。報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是臺東縣民眾服務社的好朋友，我們在此表達歡迎，謝謝。","下一位我們請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-15","影片長度":"00:07:41","end_time":"2024-10-15T10:22:32+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155468","委員名稱":"林沛祥","duration":461,"start_time":"2024-10-15T10:14:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a3ab458bd335e94ead9847653b6c4d13624c79fb42d37a1705b4274c94eda1081c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":4.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.56534375,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.767218750000001,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.52971875,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.406593750000003,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.91221875,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.345343750000005,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.45909375,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.87221875,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.711593750000006,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.48346875,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.10721875,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.12346875,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.34221875,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.65409375,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.34159375,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.33596875,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.74409375,"end":85.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.24971875,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":88.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.92846875000001,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.53159375,"end":95.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.17221875,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.03221875000001,"end":103.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.41971875,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.65159375,"end":109.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.41034375000001,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.26221875,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.67534375000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.53534375000001,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.44659375,"end":121.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.18909375000001,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.10034375000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.78784375000001,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.70159375,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.75471875000002,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.98971875,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.18346875,"end":169.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.64159375,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.60721875000002,"end":174.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.24409375000002,"end":184.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.79221875000002,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.37346875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.17909375000002,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.63846875000002,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":193.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.78971875000002,"end":196.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.13096875000002,"end":199.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.93221875,"end":201.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.90659375,"end":204.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.48846875,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.10846875000001,"end":213.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.73596875,"end":218.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.00971875000002,"end":240.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.80346875,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.20096875,"end":266.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.30159375,"end":270.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.30096875000004,"end":271.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.12346875000003,"end":280.12221875},{"spea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院長來了說這邊會盡量補助那第一線人員居然回答 沒有這個事 我沒有聽說到"},{"start":153.035,"end":172.931,"text":"那我不知道為什麼國有財產局針對這個救災、震災的態度跟基隆市政府差這麼多。這邊我必須要先跟院長來做個報告,也請院長說明一下怎麼會變這個樣子。是的委員,我們那天我記得我們是到新豐街。對"},{"start":175.287,"end":175.527,"text":"臨時提案委員．"},{"start":192.036,"end":216.777,"text":"國財產署或是其他的單位接受委員或是議員的要求去現場看那他們要回來之後當然要統合整個經費的需求跟這個整個工程復原的先入順序再來做一項的處理我想給他們謹慎一點是好但是地方受到風災任何的這個傷害中央政府跟地方一定是通力合作來把它復原"},{"start":217.177,"end":238.042,"text":"因為我會這樣講的原因是我期待我們行政院的各部門不是只有院長講的話之後下面的人就應奉陽違其實不管是誰執政都是很糟糕的公務人員的狀況那這件事情其實我會希望因為基隆市院長去過基隆知道基隆市很多山坡地"},{"start":238.642,"end":238.943,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":262.362,"end":288.47,"text":"也請委員放心,無論是透過交通部門跟到交通部或是國土署到內政部或是您說的國產署到財政部,他們都會往部裡面去這個綜合整理所有地方報上來的需要一起合作協助的地方,那我們就會按部就班按程序來處理。我會特別請財政部再特別注意一下當天會刊的現場狀況,那事後跟委員做詳細的說明。"},{"start":289.73,"end":319.037,"text":"好,謝謝院長。 院長那我是為什麼特地請我們鄭部長過來的原因就是因為說其實風災所影響的不是只有民宅還有道路而已。對於學校尤其是說其實院長上院長對基隆蠻了解的基隆多山然後基隆很多基本上所有的學校不是靠著山壁就是在山上那這次風災是基隆史上雨量最大的風"},{"start":319.617,"end":346.696,"text":"雨量最大的風災那我們也知道前一陣子的有感地震、無感地震其實針對整個地下水文的擾動是很嚴重的所以基隆這次土石油的發生嚴格講起來並不是針對是說我們沒有清淤清好而是有很多在山坡上他們地質跟地下水文已經改變這也是為什麼院長您10月4號來基隆勘災的時候我不在現場"},{"start":347.677,"end":375.649,"text":"因為我知道有哪些地方看起來沒事可是以前已經出過事的地方它附近的所有的區域也有可能會發生災害而且這種災害不是只有大雨來的時候會崩塌像說在那個曹慶那邊院長一定有接到報告曹慶那邊那個時候風和日麗居然也會發生灘崩就是在那個海科館那邊所以像這樣的案子其實在基隆隨時有可能發生"},{"start":376.209,"end":402.207,"text":"基隆的研盤基隆的地址其實已經跟當年講的不一樣那為什麼把這些事情拿出來呢我這邊有一些報告這邊就是說其實基隆市這次的在學校上面的風災非常嚴重那我知道說院長10月12號一到高雄就直接請國請國教署多了800萬給受災的這些學校不過基隆我也必須幫基隆請"},{"start":403.668,"end":426.469,"text":"因為基隆這一次目前有估計到學校受災的地方就高達6200萬那我也直接問過市政府他們目前的教育處跟災害補償金他們能夠不用多少他們跟我報告說差不多6200萬只有他們可以負擔到10%到15%其他真的付不出來"},{"start":427.21,"end":454.333,"text":"那也是因為這個原因所以說他們跟我講說委員如果沒有錢的話我們就只好把這些設施暫時性的把它封起來那讓學校保持安全可是學生的秀校審議就會受損害到所以我這邊有兩份資料我想請拿給我們的部長跟我們的院長來請說幫基隆人請益請你們幫幫忙這些事情"},{"start":457.908,"end":457.969,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:14:51 - 10:22:32","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155468","gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時14分）有請卓院長和教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：卓院長、鄭部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長，先是一個時事題，現在全球都滿關心的就是，我們本來派前副總統、前行政院院長陳建仁去參加這次APEC的活動，但是被拒絕了，我想請問一下院長，未來打算怎麼樣？怎麼樣推出一個合適的人選去參加APEC呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：APEC領袖代表是總統跟總統府在作業，行政院並沒有參與，但是我看到相關的報導，如果屬實，我也覺得非常惋惜。陳前副總統、陳前院長在他副總統跟院長任內對國事的瞭解是相當多的，尤其在院長任內，也帶領國家從政經各方面的進步做了很多努力，非常瞭解國家的需求，對世界的狀況也是非常嫻熟的。"],["林委員沛祥：如果行政院可以推薦人選，請問院長會推薦哪一位？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，這是總統職權，行政院不宜推薦任何人，但總統有任何吩咐，我們就會去執行。"],["林委員沛祥：好。針對卓院長在10月6號特地來到基隆勘災，本席給予高度的肯定，不過我也必須跟卓院長報告一下，您特地來，然後您說要對救災進行補助，我這邊是覺得，其實您講的話似乎很多單位並沒有好好地把它納進去。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["林委員沛祥：譬如說您10月6號來，10月7號在基隆市中山區青龍山的產業道路（在大德國中旁邊）有一個直接的勘災活動，工務處處長跟我的秘書直接說，院長來了，說這邊會儘量補助，當下國有財產署的第一線承辦人員居然回答說沒有這個事、我沒有聽說。我不知道為什麼國有財產署針對救災、賑災的態度跟基隆市政府差這麼多！這邊我必須先跟院長做個報告，也請院長說明一下，怎麼會變這個樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我記得我們那天是到新豐街土石流塌下來的地方看那個社區跟那條路，答應說當天晚上8點會通車，也是緊急地有通車了。那您說的其他地點，很抱歉！我沒有辦法把所有的人帶到所有的地方去，所以那個地點也許是國有財產署或者其他單位接受委員或議員的要求去現場看，他們回來之後當然要統合整個經費的需求跟整個工程復原的先後順序再來做處理，我想他們謹慎一點是好的，但是地方受到任何風災的傷害，中央政府跟地方一定是通力合作來把它復原，這個原則不會錯。"],["林委員沛祥：我會這樣講的原因是我期待行政院各部門，不是院長講了話之後，下面的人就陽奉陰違，其實不管是誰執政，這都是很糟糕的公務人員的狀況。這件事情其實我會希望……因為院長去過基隆，知道基隆市很多山坡地，可能有80%以上的地都是國有財產署管轄，尤其是這些山坡地，很需要中央單位來協助，甚至是補助，來把這次有關受災戶的事情做好。所以我在這邊建請院長回去跟國有財產署的高層下令，說未來我們基隆會需要他們多幫助，而我也會當中間的橋梁，這樣是否可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員放心，無論是透過交通部門到交通部、國土署到內政部，或是您說的國產署到財政部，他們都會往部裡面去綜合整理所有地方報上來的、需要一起合作協助的地方，我們就會按部就班、按程序來處理，我會特別請財政部再特別注意一下當天會勘的現場狀況，之後跟委員做詳細的說明。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝院長。院長，我特別請鄭部長備詢的原因就是，其實風災所影響的不是只有民宅還有道路而已，對於學校，其實院長對基隆蠻了解的，基隆多山，基隆基本上所有的學校不是靠著山壁，就是在山上，這次風災是基隆史上雨量最大的風災，我們也知道前一陣子的有感地震、無感地震，其實針對整個地下水文的擾動是很嚴重的，所以基隆這次土石流的發生，嚴格講起來並不是因為我們沒有清淤清好，而是有很多在山坡上的地質跟地下水文已經改變，這也是為什麼院長您10月4日來基隆勘災的時候，我不在現場，因為我知道有哪些地方看起來沒事，可是以前已經出過事的地方，它附近的所有區域也有可能會發生災害，而且這種災害不是只有大雨來的時候會崩塌，像在潮境那邊，院長一定有接到報告，潮境那邊那個時候風和日麗居然也會發生坍崩，就是在海科館那邊。所以像這樣的案子其實在基隆隨時有可能發生，基隆的岩盤、基隆的地質其實已經跟當年想的不一樣。","為什麼把這些事情拿出來呢？我這邊有一些報告，其實基隆市這次在學校方面，風災非常嚴重，我知道院長10月12日一到高雄，就直接請國教署撥了800萬給受災的這些學校，不過我也必須幫基隆請願，因為基隆這一次，目前有估計到學校受災的地方就高達6,200萬當中我也直接問過市政府他們教育處跟災害補償金能夠撥用多少，他們跟我報告，6,200萬元當中，他們差不多只可以負擔到10%到15%，其他真的付不出來，也是因為這個原因，所以他們跟我講：委員，如果沒有錢的話，我們就只好把這些設施暫時性的封起來，讓學校保持安全，可是學生的受教權益就會損害到。所以我這邊有兩份資料，我想拿給我們的部長跟我們的院長來幫基隆人請命，請你們幫幫忙這件事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，跟委員報告，當天我不僅到基隆，我到瑞芳的瑞芳高工，上個禮拜我到高雄的前鎮國小，我想我們最關心的，第一個是住家的淹水，再來就是學校的破壞，部長這邊手上已經有資料了，現在已經有11所基隆市的學校受損，提出了一些需求，我們請部長稍微說明一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝林委員……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，不好意思，我這邊特地提一個，你看到我給你的資料，在第58項德和國小，那邊的受災其實相當、相當、相當嚴重，那邊是整塊、整個大樓基本上已經被土石流淹沒，其實這整個預算裡面最貴的是德和國小這邊，不好意思，這邊基隆市真的付不出來，尤其是這一塊，要請中央單位、請部長及院長多多幫忙，這個是事實，這是昨天才照出來的實況，如果無法修好的話，德和國小我們就只好把它封起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：右邊這張圖，昨天才照出來的？"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：還是這個樣子？"],["林委員沛祥：對，沒辦法，因為這怎麼清呢？上面已經寫得很清楚，光這一筆就四千多萬，其他的一千多萬，其他的還可以基隆市我們大家慢慢來……也需要中央補助，可是這一筆，所以我剛剛為什麼講地下水文的破壞其實對於基隆市是有潛在致命性的傷害，但是我們不可能在沒有災害發生之前直接去做監測。這筆費用太貴，我很清楚，因為我之前問過，光一個山頭就要兩、三億，但是發生災害了，我們至少把他們的受教權、把學生的權益，一起幫他們恢復回來，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：那麼現在學生的上課還是相當的……"],["林委員沛祥：這是一棟大樓，總共三到四棟大樓，不過一棟大樓已經完全被淹過去，現在只能靠剩下的三棟大樓來支撐，如果可以的話，甚至說我下次辦會勘，請教育部也派人來。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長安排一下時間，相關人員可以馬上到基隆，去毀損嚴重的幾個學校看一看，能夠適時的、急速的幫大家來完成，這個我們要列為必要優先。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，會後我們下午就請國教署負責的同仁前往德和國小立即來勘查，然後請專家看怎麼樣來協助。"],["卓院長榮泰：很多是地方政府也要出來協助。"],["林委員沛祥：他們很樂意，這是地方政府主動跟我講說這筆太大，一般來講，風災的整個remedy──整個所謂的急救款了不起800萬到900萬，這些整個加起來六千多萬，我只是針對教育部學校方面，以前差不多800萬到900萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以請委員也居間協助，把地方政府請出來，讓教育部來看看地方政府還有多少的災損金可以用，那其他的部分、應急的部分我們會來處理。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。","再來，其實我要問的，嚴格講起來這個也不能講不嚴肅，只是我也必須請教院長跟我們的鄭部長，因為體育署未來要變成體育暨運動發展部，那現在還在我們的教育部裡面，但是我很好奇就是說，到底為什麼要去做這個運動發展部？我們的目標到底是什麼？因為很實際的，我想全國喜歡運動的人都想問這個問題，我們這個運動發展部所建立的原因是為了在國際賽事上拿金牌，幫我們國人增加榮譽感、認同感？還是針對運動產業在臺灣已經有可能發展？還是說要讓我們的運動，也就是體育這方面的事情真的深植到我們社會？到底是怎麼樣，總是要有一個比較明確的目標，因為老實講……不然的話，我們現在在民間常聽到說，你升格成為部，人變多了，但是功能沒有變，那這一點的話，我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你剛剛說的都是，沒有還是，都是。第一個我要強調，它不是一個升格的問題，它是一個全新的運動部，它裡面最重要的三項精神，第一個就是推展全民運動，第二個是國際競技，第三個是運動產業，當然還有其他，我是說最重要就這三項，那這三項會變成三支柱子支撐全新的一個運動部。"],["林委員沛祥：那這個就很尷尬了，因為這三個老實講都很難做得到，因為老實說，如果你是要在國際賽事拿名的話，你的經費要怎麼樣去挹注？其實我第一個要問，因為我自己本身是基隆SBL的領隊，那現在籃球的事情搞得紛紛擾擾，我想請問一下院長跟部長，你們自己有從事運動嗎？有打運動嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：任何運動都可以去參與。"],["林委員沛祥：有沒有自己喜歡打的？像我是籃球迷，我高中、大學都打校隊，我昨天還在練球，你們……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，現在因為考量年紀的關係，我現在除了打網球，大概就是桌球，桌球是比較方便的。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我們現在尷尬的地方，就是說我們現在講的很多運動，有關這個賽事，甚至想要把它職業化、產業化的賽事，全部都是大型運動，都不是one on one，請問你知道有乒乓球的職業選手嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國內的？國內有很多好手，對啊！"],["林委員沛祥：國內有沒有像職業乒乓球的賽事？"],["卓院長榮泰：賽事？"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們未來也希望用臺灣的元素來舉辦大型的國際賽事。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我要講的，就是說你們如果真的要成立一個部的話，光運動產業這一塊，你沒有提說……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會，這之一而已。"],["林委員沛祥：對，雖然運動產業是之一，但是有多少職業運動應該在臺灣去深耕發展？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就是未來發展了，報告委員，如果我們沒有全民運動的話，我們支撐不了……"],["林委員沛祥：那就是另外一個問題，請問為什麼要提升全民運動？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個是健康，還有走向國際。"],["林委員沛祥：健康而已嗎？那就糟糕了，因為運動的本質不是只為了健康，運動的本質是為了紀律性、團體精神跟其他的，這就是我說我們現在開始……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這是一個全新的運動部。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我們不是在辯論，我只是在講說，因為我自己打籃球，而且我自己打得很深，所以說運動發展部這件事情出來的時候，大家不容易看好，尤其是從事運動的人，因為這個部出來之後，在這裡面他扮演什麼角色會變得非常重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會全力支持，謝謝。","委員請保重，您的聲音……"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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對不對"},{"start":34.98,"end":59.058,"text":"你知道嗎?所以這個部分是因為那個財政部沒有能力提出來還是行政院讓他們不要提出來?是,跟委員報告在6月19號的時候財政委員會的一個這樣的一個決議那要求財政部在這次開議之前提出修法版本那我們在當時的討論的時候也明白的說明這個部分"},{"start":59.718,"end":87.668,"text":"部長因為從上個會期的時候上個會期的召委他就開過了公聽會而且也都質詢過了那到現在因為25年都沒有改我覺得剛剛院長特別提到說現在的版本是你們覺得執行起來最有把握的一個狀態可是我覺得這不是不提行政院版本的理由我提一個目前我覺得"},{"start":88.928,"end":116.559,"text":"目前整個財化法非常不合理的地方我以新竹市為例來說新竹市這邊的情況的時候部長、院長我們以去年整個創收的一個情況新竹市這邊的創收金額是2968億全國第三那麼人均的一個創收人均的創收是65萬"},{"start":118.18,"end":129.025,"text":"每個人65萬每個人65萬那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候可是我們如果單純所得稅這個部分全國一兆8346億當中新竹市的貢獻度達到3067億佔16.7%這是所得稅的部分那整個統籌分配的時候去年的狀態是4227億"},{"start":146.152,"end":152.741,"text":"新竹市只分配到了63.5億只拿到了統籌分配款裡面的1.5%"},{"start":155.647,"end":183.646,"text":"顯然新竹市創造了一個很高的一個貢獻度可是分配到的非常的少那我們再往下看我們看一下整個110年各縣市統籌分配稅款一般補助的分配表的部分因為剛剛院長提到了你跟地方配合的很好而且也給地方很多的一個支援地方要發展你都支持我給你看一下很具體的一個數字新竹市"},{"start":184.887,"end":208.253,"text":"人均創收65萬,然後佔據整個普通的統籌分配稅款下來的時候只佔了1.5%,非常的低,只有69億。那麼一般性補助款,你也提到一般性補助款,新竹市也很低,新竹市只有30億,而且只比金門、馬祖高。"},{"start":209.847,"end":232.319,"text":"比澎湖都低,這是一般性補助款。 從統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款加起來的時候,新竹市一年就100億。 跟它的上角的稅收貢獻度來說的時候只有3.37%,顯然非常的低啊。 院長你看到這樣的數字你不會覺得說對整個新竹市這邊的一個狀態覺得應該要有所調整嗎?"},{"start":236.063,"end":256.866,"text":"跟委員報告您提到這個就是一個水平分配的一個機制因為目前分配就是水平分配水平分配在縣市之間的一個分配因為現在的分配機制是直轄市先分配到61%縣市24%再來鄉鎮所以這個部分我們目前在調整這個是為什麼希望財政部能夠提出院版的機制"},{"start":258.328,"end":264.19,"text":"前副院長鄭文燦到新竹市來開了一個支票,說要針對竹竹苗的部分給高中職闊校增班的計畫,到現在沒有引中。然後後來國發會沒有做,推到了"},{"start":287.498,"end":311.331,"text":"教育部去推的時候,教育部推的時候,我們現在地方根本沒有這樣的預算去配合。然後我再講一個狀態,針對我們目前整個的一個賴清德總統提出來的桃竹苗大細股計畫,說要把大新竹輕軌納入。大新竹輕軌納入的時候,院長,新竹市、新竹縣政府負擔不起這樣的財務狀態。"},{"start":313.865,"end":313.885,"text":"鄭正鈐議員"},{"start":345.392,"end":348.147,"text":"發展所需要的一個資源。 難道這樣子有錯嗎?"},{"start":348.147,"end":348.167,"text":"院長。"},{"start":350.136,"end":377.211,"text":"三件事情跟委員報告交通的部分我已經再度請陳士凱部長能夠對新竹包括高速公路那一段的塞車狀況要及時提出一個可檢討的方式出來我希望委員再給我們一點時間那個桃竹苗大細股現在已經進入到一個相當成熟的階段但是還沒有到最後的定案在這個過程當中我們還是跟地方多多的溝通可以改變納進或者是調整各種的內容這是一個另外"},{"start":377.731,"end":400.951,"text":"你剛剛提到的,委員提到這個高中增班的機會,我知道過去是因為竹科的增加,國中小的增加,現在到了高中時代必須增加,我們有在討論,不是完全沒有在討論。 是,院長,討論對民眾來講的時候,不是解決問題啊,討論這規劃本來就是行政部門必須要去做的事情。 是,討論之後就會實際的規劃,報告可行性。 我接下來,我還會繼續再"},{"start":404.093,"end":421.772,"text":"交通委員會我還會再繼續跟你問交通相關的問題你剛剛提到了一個高速公路就是舞陽高架延伸到苗栗這一段這個部分只是一小部分解決高速公路問題跟整個科學園區周邊的狀態其實還是沒有辦法解決所以大氣鼓計畫裡面的"},{"start":424.929,"end":447.569,"text":"大新竹輕軌我們其實我會再跟你來討論這個部分這個部分完全反映出了地方政府沒有足夠的能力去做好的基礎建設所以在科學人區工作的人目前17萬的工作人口他們每天塞車花掉這麼多的一個成本你覺得這是他們貢獻了這麼多稅收出來應得的一個狀態嗎?"},{"start":447.569,"end":447.589,"text":"院長"},{"start":449.927,"end":475.861,"text":"沒有,我們是在均衡臺灣的理念之下,或許我們可以用其他的時間跟委員再詳細討論一下桃園苗大矽谷這個計畫目前進展跟未來大家是不是還有更好的構想能夠來讓他調整一下。好,針對這個部分我在想說財政收支沒有真的做調整的時候新竹市永遠不會有足夠的錢去做好的一個基礎建設。我們也希望能夠像臺北市有好的捷運啊,可是新竹市一直都沒有。"},{"start":476.681,"end":477.041,"text":"委員的意見我們納入"},{"start":502.523,"end":531.477,"text":"OK 所以我這邊很主張一個點就是希望地方的所得受的貢獻度能夠納入中央在做財化考量分配時候的一個依據 院長你可以答應這個部分我們在計算有一套標準因為跟委員報告其實各個地方的財政狀況完全不同有十幾個縣市你把國稅全部他收起的國稅跟地稅都給他他都還不夠支出"},{"start":531.997,"end":555.837,"text":"部長我了解這個狀態只是我剛把那數字提出來你覺得還是合理嗎新竹市貢獻了所得稅16.7%只分配到了統籌分配款的1.5%你覺得這樣合理嗎然後新竹市又不是像台北市有那麼好的捷運有那麼好的基礎建設都沒有欸還要繼續再發展才有辦法教室不夠"},{"start":557.352,"end":564.278,"text":"所以我們才有一般型補助、計劃型補助、各種的方式來作證。我剛剛講了嘛,包括統治跟一般型補助,新竹市都是最糟糕的啊。"},{"start":587.108,"end":587.728,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":617.609,"end":627.937,"text":"李惠智表示,院長當時沒有提出復議案是因為避免引發不必要的對立,然後不忍心,於心不忍,所以才沒有提出復議。 院長你是這樣講是嗎?"},{"start":645.083,"end":670.864,"text":"這只是中間那一段話,因為我後面那一段話是我明明知道,我認為,禁法補償這個法律案是違背了憲法70條的精神跟規定,也違背了預算法。我明明知道它的合法性有問題,但是我認為我那時候提復議案會造成更大的對立,我情願想用其他的方法來解決。"},{"start":673.286,"end":693.684,"text":"行政院如果對於立法院通過的法案有覺得自愛難行之處,應依法提出,你沒有提出注意,就覺得你沒有自愛難行嘛。 既然沒有自愛難行,賴清德總統其實也在6月24號公佈了這樣的一個法。 公佈出來之後,行政院完全不甩。"},{"start":694.901,"end":717.298,"text":"然後預算送到立法院,立法院退回來之後,你們只要改一下之後再送進來,也許這事情就過去了,可是你們就硬不改。 我不曉得這個部分是人民會的問題,它不作為不依法行政,不依法編列預算,還是財政部沒有把所有的預算整合好,還是院長還是你下令?"},{"start":718.299,"end":720.141,"text":"這是一個原則問題。 我也向立法院提出過施政報告。"},{"start":733.803,"end":747.853,"text":"我們三讀通過的法案,行政院可以不編列預算,不依法行政,你說這個是你們的原則問題,那以後行政院都可以選擇性的依法行政就可以嗎?不是選擇性,報告委員,如果明年客家"},{"start":749.794,"end":765.089,"text":"這朋友來一次,軍人來一次,警察來一次,勞工來一次,都增加...如果立法院每個都有通過的時候,依法行政就是最主要的原則,民主制度當中很重要的原則就是依法行政,現在立法院..."},{"start":765.989,"end":786.708,"text":"通過這樣一個法案,行政院不做的時候還振振有詞,我覺得完全把台灣的民主制度踐踏在腳下,院長我覺得這是有問題的,而且我覺得你不去執行這樣子的一個立法,通過的一個案子的時候,我覺得你不只是在踐踏我們的原住民,我覺得你打臉,"},{"start":788.444,"end":789.986,"text":"你知道我也來自立法院"},{"start":807.302,"end":825.379,"text":"我理解啊,而且雖然說你覺得現在這個事情你還很有道理,你不依照立法院的一個通過的法案去做,你還覺得很有道理。那當初我在這裡的施政報告就毫無意義啦,我的報告是這個,現在要我增加的所有其他的預算,我的施政報告無法執行了。"},{"start":826.223,"end":827.765,"text":"我來這裡施政報告是憲法賦予我的潛力"},{"start":846.554,"end":860.5,"text":"憲法有賦予立法院立法公算審查的權利,難道不是嗎?剛剛講說憲法明定沒有提出賦予的權利,你沒有提出賦予的權利,你還在這邊說三道四,這怎麼會是合理的情況?"},{"start":862.501,"end":866.864,"text":"立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議。"},{"start":892.541,"end":892.561,"text":"謝謝鄭委員"},{"start":918.1,"end":928.933,"text":"報告院會財政組之質詢已詢答完畢,休息10分鐘,休息之後進行教育及文化組之質詢,現在休息。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:48:47 - 10:04:15","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155467","gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時48分）謝謝主席，我要請一下卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：卓院長好，我想在財政這個領域做質詢一定要談到財政收支劃分法，在今年6月19號的時候，剛剛林德福委員也問到了，我們財政委員會其實有通過一個臨時提案，就是要求財政部在這個會期開議前把院版的財政收支劃分法提出來，可是財政部沒有提出來，院長知道這個事情嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你知道嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這個部分是因為財政部沒有能力提出來，還是行政院讓他們不要提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請部長說明一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，在6月19號的時候財政委員會有一個這樣的決議，要求財政部在這一次開議之前提出修法版本，那我們在當時討論的時候也明白的說明，這個部分事實上有時間性的一個困難……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，因為從上個會期的時候……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為要取得共識不是那麼容易，所以我們的報告已經提供給立法院。"],["鄭委員正鈐：上個會期的召委就開過了公聽會，而且也都質詢過了……"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：到現在，因為25年都沒有改，剛剛院長有特別提到，現在的版本是你們覺得執行起來最有把握的一個狀態，可是我覺得這不是不提行政院版本的理由。我提一個目前我覺得整個財劃法非常不合理的地方，我以新竹市為例，關於新竹市這邊的情況，部長、院長，我們以去年整個創收的情況來看，新竹市的創收金額是2,968億，全國第三，人均的創收是65萬，每個人65萬，在這樣的情況之下，可是我們如果單從所得稅這個部分來看，全國1兆8,346億當中，新竹市的貢獻度達到3,067億，占16.7%，這是所得稅的部分；而整個統籌分配的部分，去年的狀態是4,227億，新竹市只分配到63.5億，只拿到了統籌分配款裡面的1.5%，顯然新竹市創造了一個很高的貢獻度，可是分配到的卻非常少。","我們再往下看，我們看一下整個112年各縣市統籌分配稅款及一般性補助分配表的部分，因為剛剛院長有提到，你跟地方配合得很好，而且也給地方很多資源，地方要發展你都支持，我給你看一下很具體的數字，新竹市人均創收65萬，普通的統籌分配稅款下來的時候，只占了1.5%，非常的低，只有69億，而一般性補助款，你也提到一般性補助款，新竹市也很低，新竹市只有30億，而且只比金門、馬祖高，比澎湖都低，這是一般性補助款的部分，而統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款加起來，新竹市1年只有100億，跟它上繳的稅收貢獻度來說，只有占3.37%，顯然非常的低，院長，你看到這樣的數字，對於整個新竹市這邊的一個狀態，你不會覺得應該要有所調整嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您提到這個就是一個水平分配的機制因為目前分配……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，你們一直在講垂直分配跟水平分配的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：這是水平分配，水平分配是在縣市之間的一個分配，因為現在的分配機制是直轄市先分配到61%，縣市是24%，再來是鄉鎮，所以這個部分我們目前在調整……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這就是為什麼希望財政部能夠提出院版，否則對新竹市來說是非常非常的不公平。"],["莊部長翠雲：是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：剛剛院長這邊有提到，對整個地方所有的需求，你們都會支持，其實沒有，院長，今年選舉前的時候，前副院長鄭文燦到新竹市來開了一個支票，說要針對竹竹苗的部分給高中職擴校增班的計畫，到現在沒有影蹤，後來國發會沒有做，推到了教育部去推，教育部推的時候，我們地方根本沒有這樣的預算去配合。然後我再講一個狀態，針對目前賴清德總統提出來的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，說要把大新竹輕軌納入，大新竹輕軌納入的時候，院長，新竹市、新竹縣政府負擔不起這樣的財務狀態，光是一條紅線、藍線加起來就將近三百億，超過新竹市1年的財政總預算。過去這二十多年來，科學園區塞車是大新竹地區所有人的夢魘，這二十年來都沒有辦法解決，所以我們期待在財劃法當中能夠有所調整，讓地方能夠有足夠的財源來解決地方發展所需要的一個資源，難道這樣子有錯嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：三件事情跟委員報告，交通的部分，我已經再度請陳世凱部長能夠對新竹包括高速公路那一段的塞車狀況，要及時提出一個可檢討的方式出來，我希望委員再給我們一點時間。","桃竹苗大矽谷現在已經進入到一個相當成熟的階段，但是還沒有到最後的定案，在這個過程當中，我們還是可以跟地方多多的溝通，可以改變、納進，或者是調整各種內容，這是一個。另外，剛剛委員提到的高中增班的計畫，我知道過去是因為竹科的國中小增加，現在到了高中必須增加，我們有在討論，不是完全沒有在討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是。院長，討論對民眾來講不是解決問題，討論、規劃本來就是行政部門必須要去做的事。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，討論之後就會實際的規劃，包括可行性、時程。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我接下來還會到交通委員會繼續再問交通相關的問題，你剛剛提到高速公路五楊高架延伸到苗栗這一段，這個部分只是一小部分解決高速公路的問題，對於整個科學園區周邊的狀態，其實還是沒有辦法解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：也都在討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對大矽谷計畫裡面的大新竹輕軌，我會再跟你討論這個部分，這個部分完全反映出地方政府沒有足夠能力去做好的基礎建設，科學園區目前有17萬工作人口，他們每天塞車花掉這麼多成本，你覺得這是他們貢獻這麼多稅收出來應得的一個狀態嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們是在均衡臺灣的理念之下，或許我們可以用其他時間跟委員再詳細討論一下桃竹苗大矽谷這個計畫目前的進展，跟未來大家是不是還有更好的構想能夠讓它調整或增加。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。針對這個部分，我在想財政收支沒有真的做調整的時候，新竹市永遠不會有足夠的錢去做好的基礎建設，我們也希望能夠像臺北市有好的捷運啊！可是新竹市一直都沒有，規劃了這麼久，連規劃案都還沒有成熟。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們現在在討論的分配機制裡面就包含一個基本建設的需求，因為均衡區域發展是分配財源非常重要的一個目的，以及對財政盈虛的調整，所以在分配機制上，我們一直都在討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，所以我們希望你們提出院版，因為到目前我們看到的狀態，新竹市都是非常不公平的被對待，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員的意見，我們納入。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我這邊很主張一個點，希望地方所得稅的貢獻度能夠納入中央在做財劃考量分配時候的一個依據，院長，你可不可以答應這個部分？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的計算有一套標準。"],["莊部長翠雲：要再另外計算。跟委員報告，其實各個地方的財政狀況完全不同，有十幾個縣市，你把收取的國稅跟地稅都給它，它都還不夠支出，所以我們這個財劃法就是要……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我了解這個狀態，只是我剛剛把這個數字提出來，你覺得還是合理嗎？新竹市貢獻了所得稅16.7%，只分配到統籌分配款的1.5%，你覺得這樣合理嗎？然後新竹市又不是像臺北市有那麼好的捷運、有那麼好的基礎建設，都沒有！還要繼續再發展才有辦法……"],["莊部長翠雲：是，所以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是不夠！沒有輕軌、沒有捷運、交通堵塞，這個部分就是現在新竹市大新竹地區大家的日常，我們希望院長這邊能夠協助解決，從財劃法這邊來做個突破，好不好？把地方的稅收貢獻度納入考量，好不好？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們才有一般型補助、計畫型補助各種方式做更全面的計算。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我剛剛講了嘛，包括統籌分配跟一般型補助，新竹市都是最糟糕的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：地方要提出一個計畫出來，我們才能夠在這裡做合理的討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，針對財劃法的部分，請趕快往下走。","接下來我要問的部分是，因為我看到財政部完全不甩財政委員會6月19號的一個臨時提案……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有不甩，我們已經把報告都提送給委員會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我就想到目前整個預算的狀況，有關立法院把預算退回去這件事情，到目前為止，坦白說卡到了一個狀態，那就是原住民的禁伐補償問題。10月11號的時候行政院發言人李慧芝表示，院長當時沒有提出覆議案是因為避免引發不必要的對立，於心不忍，所以才沒有提出覆議，院長，你是這樣講是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是中間的一段話……"],["鄭委員正鈐：有一段，因為你於心不忍嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：後面還有一段話是，我明明知道，我認為禁伐補償這個法律案是違背了憲法第七十條的精神跟規定，也違背了預算法……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你如果覺得有問題，你為什麼沒有提覆議案？"],["卓院長榮泰：我明明知道它的合法性有問題，但是我認為我那時候提覆議案會造成更大的對立，我情願用其他的方法來解決。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，重點是憲法本身就明定，行政院如果對於立法院通過的法案覺得有窒礙難行之處，應依法提出覆議，你沒有提出覆議就是你沒有窒礙難行，既然沒有窒礙難行，賴清德總統其實也在6月24號公布了這樣一個法，公布出來之後，行政院完全不甩，然後把預算送到立法院，立法院退回來之後，你們只要改一下之後再送進來，也許這事情就過去了，可是你們就硬是不改，我不曉得這個部分是原民會不作為、不依法行政、不依法編列預算，還是財政部沒有把所有的預算整合好，還是院長你下令？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個原則問題，委員，我們試想一下……"],["鄭委員正鈐：原則問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們試想一下……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，什麼原則問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果……"],["鄭委員正鈐：立法院通過的法律，行政院可以不甩、不去執行，這叫原則問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是不甩，我也向立法院提出過施政報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們三讀通過的法案，行政院可以不編列預算、不依法行政，你說這是你們的原則問題，那以後行政院都可以選擇性的依法行政嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是選擇性，報告委員，如果明年客家朋友來一次、軍人來一次、警察來一次、勞工來一次，都增加預算……"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果立法院每個都通過，依法行政是最主要的原則，民主制度當中很重要的原則就是依法行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：那以後行政院……"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在立法院通過一個這樣的法案……"],["卓院長榮泰：還要不要施政報告？"],["鄭委員正鈐：行政院不做還振振有詞……"],["卓院長榮泰：那以後行政院……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我覺得完全把臺灣的民主制度踐踏在腳下。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，我覺得這是有問題的，而且我覺得你不去執行這樣一個立法院通過的法案，我覺得你不只是在踐踏我們的原住民，還是在打臉賴清德總統，因為他已經把這個法律案公布了，你不只是在藐視立法院，還是打臉賴清德總統。對於這樣一個狀態，你還振振有詞，依法行政是這樣子做的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你知道我也來自立法院。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我理解呀，所以你覺得現在這件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：我怎麼會藐視立法院？"],["鄭委員正鈐：你還很有道理，你不依照立法院通過的法案去做，你還覺得很有道理。"],["卓院長榮泰：那當初我在這裡做的施政報告就毫無意義了，我的報告是這個，現在要我增加所有其他的預算，我的施政報告無法執行啊！怎麼辦？"],["鄭委員正鈐：雖然你的施政報告是你的主張，可是立法院通過的法律層次非常高，行政部門必須去follow，你現在還講你的施政報告可以輾壓立法院的立法，是這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是碾壓，我來這裡施政報告是憲法賦予我的權力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：憲法有賦予立法院立法跟預算審查的權力，難道不是嗎？剛剛說憲法明定你有提出覆議的權力，你沒有提出覆議，你還在這邊說三道四，這怎麼會是合理的情況？"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法第七十條明文規定，立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們沒有增加啊！我們退回預算要你修改之後再送進來，這叫增加嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你的腦袋要清楚一點！"],["卓院長榮泰：連提議都不行哦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：立法院如果是增加預算表示我們在審的過程主張增加，我們現在沒有增加，我們是退回你的預算，你要修正之後再送進來。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們不要在這裡動怒。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你現在提出來的預算當中一年增加了2,806億元……"],["卓院長榮泰：大院正要舉行朝野協商……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們看到了原住民的禁伐補償……"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望有一個很好的氣氛……"],["鄭委員正鈐：只多14億元……"],["卓院長榮泰：讓立法院能夠進行朝野協商……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以顯然不是行政院做不到……"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣你以後的地方建設要求，我們才能跟你討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：而是行政院意圖要讓行政院跟立法院產生衝突，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果繼續卡預算，我們怎麼討論未來的地方合作呢？謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。","報告院會，財政組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息10分鐘，休息之後進行教育及文化組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時4分）","繼續開會（10時14分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長我請教因為財政收支劃分法25年來 絲毫未動那立法院在參議會在這個上個會期決議要求財政部必須在會期開始前提出草案那我請問院長為什麼到現在還看不到行政院修正的版本送進立法院那這裡面到底是財政部"},{"start":51.367,"end":61.717,"text":"現代執行職務還是行政院下令要求財政部無需要來提案所以說到現在還看不到行政院的版本?"},{"start":61.717,"end":62.638,"text":"院長你有什麼看法?"},{"start":63.591,"end":80.889,"text":"報告委員我們在院內經過充分的討論我一直認為現在的財政收支發分法我們來執行是最有把握的而且根據這部法律過去幾年當中我們對地方政府的任何的補助金額是持續在增加的詳細數字我再請部長說明"},{"start":82.29,"end":102.877,"text":"所以目前這樣實施下去 地方任何的重大建設 中央持續來加以協助都成為一種在財政合作上面的常態 也符合我們的財政紀律但是在過去我所看的 並不然啊 不是你所講的啊因為地方跟中央 為什麼說地方一直要爭"},{"start":103.877,"end":132.233,"text":"因為中央長權又長錢所以說才要才化法而且讓地方的政府大家商討大概有一個額度比較適當的額度但是而且裁委會也在上個會期有做這樣的一個決議但是行政院認為不必因為25年來其實25年裡面有藍有綠都執政過但是才化法幾乎"},{"start":133.033,"end":139.338,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":152.788,"end":177.404,"text":"行政院希望以中央用全國的高度以角度來看才能夠兼顧公平性合理性以及維護中央政府財務韌性等多重考量下來進行相關的法制規劃及調整那我請問院長以您的高度來看到底是由誰來提案才能夠達到真正的"},{"start":178.663,"end":179.784,"text":"他在幹什麼呢?"},{"start":185.741,"end":214.299,"text":"報告委員多年來中央地方的財政的合作一直呈現出很正面的價值現在各縣市地方政府的債務比例也持續在下降表示中央除了在工建計畫上面比如說捷運還有很多的這個科學園區的設計都是中央全力在支持的更有很多的道路系統交通系統跟防洪治水的預算都是中央全力在做而且相當多是跨縣市區域性的在做"},{"start":214.719,"end":218.32,"text":"所以說那個 院長你的看法還是中央來分配就對了 這不是分配 中央地方的財政合作 因為齁"},{"start":242.41,"end":270.113,"text":"以維護財政的韌性是中央政府還是地方政府還是財政部還是執政黨立委還是在野黨的立委因您看呢?沒有,中央地方是財政的合作並不是我只是分配而已院長,20多年來時空環境變遷那中央地方政府經歷多次政黨的輪替那為了鞏固執政權力充滿算計下的修法讓財化法"},{"start":272.415,"end":291.248,"text":"不是,報告委員,過去這麼多年來,我們透過一般補助,透過統籌分配稅款,以及各種交通跟其他各項的公共建設的補助,跟地方的合作"},{"start":292.145,"end":308.512,"text":"我想部長可以很清楚的數字來跟委員說明而且這個持續增加的那我請問院長難道一直沒有找到共識就能夠作為財政部不提出修法的主要理由還是擔心修法後出現中央與地方政府政治權利"},{"start":309.292,"end":311.473,"text":"完全不是,我們正在尋求最高的共識。 我剛剛有說過了,我很欣慰看到"},{"start":330.986,"end":332.467,"text":"院長本席認為說有權就要有責"},{"start":347.635,"end":361.435,"text":"那有則就有法可循。 那行政院應該要逆向的思考, 重整修法邏輯的思維。 我相信許多顧慮都可以迎刃而解。 您的看法呢?"},{"start":364.152,"end":377.121,"text":"有權當然要有責啊當然財政跟事權必須要劃一但是在現行雖然沒有修但是透過中央統籌跟一般性補助款113年的金額達到6356億比105年成長了46.7%而在114年更會增加900億"},{"start":385.347,"end":388.888,"text":"因為中央好地方才能也一起好這樣才是我們最終的一個目的那共識是一定要有的沒有共識提出修法還是不會有結果我相信這一次整個財政委員會絕對會把這個要是說"},{"start":417.261,"end":438.357,"text":"這個行政院不提出修法的版本那財委會現在做的一個決定到時候一定會送到院會來做最後的決定我認為要是由行政院來提出版本是最適當那既然行政院不提出版本我相信財委會最後一定會討論出一個結論來"},{"start":440.979,"end":467.594,"text":"我希望還是經過大院內部的協商以及兩院之間談這個事情行政院不是沒有版本現行的版本我一直強調是現在是最好的版本我們看不到更好的版本 那我就尊重你那個院長臺灣消費者物價指數年增率已經連續3年喔超過2%以往外界習慣定為2%為通膨的一個警戒線那央行解釋臺灣屬於"},{"start":469.035,"end":469.055,"text":"請問院長﹖"},{"start":495.779,"end":519.073,"text":"數據發生變化是代表國內通盆情況緩和還是只是短期現象的一個反饋?報告委員數據當然是一個非常科學的計算跟統計但是過去從COVID-19之後一直到世界這個戰爭的發生到底卻造成了很多原物料的上漲我們也必須承受這個部分但是相對的來看"},{"start":520.128,"end":522.349,"text":"其實齁,你沒有調民生用電,到最後一樣,為什麼?第一個,"},{"start":548.737,"end":549.077,"text":"其實齁 院長"},{"start":569.415,"end":591.37,"text":"這個當然要苦民所苦啦,外面你看,所有你這個只要每天你去買便當,過去的便當到現在漲了以後,它下來,它絕對不會下來的啦,我相信你也很清楚,過去買便當大概70、80,最多100可以買到,現在你100買不到什麼,"},{"start":592.09,"end":595.431,"text":"所以說請問院長你對於未來CPI年增率的變化主計總署這樣樂觀的看待院長你的看法和主計處一致的嗎?"},{"start":620.996,"end":646.785,"text":"我們當然希望穩定的維持在2以下,即使它稍微一點點,那我覺得這個還是在可控範圍。那你認為這個不是短期現象就對了,未來就是會維持在2%以下。1.82,目前還是控制在1.82。那你認為未來還是都會維持在2%以下嗎?還是短暫的現象?我們是長期努力的目標,但是國際的因素必須考慮在內,但是我們有做好所有因應的準備跟措施。"},{"start":649.356,"end":662.683,"text":"雖然10月電價調漲的政策臺電評估出這個間接影響CPI超過0.03%雖然環境部宣布明年徵收的碳會對CPI影響約0.01%"},{"start":664.804,"end":672.49,"text":"除了剛剛委員所說的這兩項因素之外我們可控的部分我們盡量控制在我們合理的範圍當中但國際上的因素我們會做好萬全的準備"},{"start":691.195,"end":699.304,"text":"所以說漲了就下不來啦,所以說老百姓很多過去能夠買那麼多東西現在買不到,他的重複指數就越高越高啊。"},{"start":710.659,"end":725.127,"text":"這個綜合起來還是會在我們可供的範圍內。院長,因為《環球金融雜誌》最新公布2024年主要國家央行總裁的評比,這個跟楊總裁有關係。我們楊總裁今年獲釋V家級的評等。那請問院長,針對今年《環球金融雜誌》對楊總裁的評等,你有什麼看法?"},{"start":736.834,"end":738.455,"text":"我先幫楊總裁鼓勵一下再請總裁"},{"start":763.444,"end":775.95,"text":"要維持都是A家那是非常辛苦的一件事情但也維持了那麼久就像大谷祥平連續36次倒壘總會失敗一次但是失敗那一次不會影響他是偉大球員我們請楊總裁說明"},{"start":778.519,"end":806.622,"text":"楊總裁你有什麼看法我想就中央銀行的立場來觀察它當然中央銀行還是就是說我們有持續努力的空間這是我的看法那是你很客氣的那個院長對於央行總裁平等的看法或許有許多不同的解讀但是對於央行政策到底要和國際央行接軌還是脫鉤我請問院長你有什麼看法"},{"start":808.067,"end":824.2,"text":"這個我覺得重要。我一直認為我們的金融、匯率等等這個市場,我們應該更國際、更開放、更自由、更創新。所以要跟國際接軌,央行也必須要做很多的創新。那現在央行除了對國內的"},{"start":825.708,"end":828.251,"text":"蘇院長我再請教現階段到底我們應該順應潮流還是走自己的路因您的看法"},{"start":844.377,"end":846.398,"text":"按照中華經濟研究院公布9月製造業採購經理人指數出現中斷先前延四個月的擴張轉為緊縮"},{"start":864.588,"end":885.246,"text":"是近半年來最低值從這項調查顯示國際景氣似乎有逐漸下滑的這種趨勢那院長你現在已經進入第四季央行為了打通膨打炒房似乎和現階段政策目標有一段距離啦換句話說說不定還有其他殺手間要推出請問院長如果未來國際景氣繼續往下"},{"start":890.231,"end":897.523,"text":"下修的話,現階段央行打通膨打炒房的做法到底是應該如何加碼,還是有條件的修正?"},{"start":898.431,"end":922.979,"text":"我們也看到比如說很多歐洲國家現在都可能面臨到通縮的狀態但是無論如何國內金融穩定央行最近所提出的這些政策經過適度的修整之後應該讓社會來實施一段時間我們是支持的但是央行在穩定國內的國內金融市場之外他的對整個匯率的掌握也相當的準確這個是央行過去很好的表現好謝謝"},{"start":928.466,"end":933.763,"text":"好,謝謝林委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請鄭正前委員質詢。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:32:56 - 09:48:35","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155466","gazette":{"lineno":217,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時32分）謝謝大會主席江副院長，是不是請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，你好。院長，因為財政收支劃分法25年來絲毫未動，立法院財委會在上個會期決議要求財政部必須在會期開始前提出草案。我請問院長，為什麼到現在還看不到行政院修正的版本送進立法院？這裡面到底是財政部懈怠執行職務，還是行政院下令要求財政部無須來提案，所以到現在還看不到行政院的版本？院長，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們在院內經過充分的討論，我一直認為現在的財政收支劃分法我們來執行是最有把握的，而且根據這部法律，過去幾年當中，我們對於地方政府的任何補助金額是持續在增加的，詳細數字我再請部長說明，所以目前這樣實施下去，地方任何的重大建設，中央持續加以協助，都成為一種在財政合作上的常態，也符合我們的財政紀律。"],["林委員德福：但是在過去我所看到的並不然啊，不是你所講的啊，因為地方跟中央，為什麼說地方一直要爭，因為中央掌權又掌錢，所以才要財劃法，而且讓地方政府大家來商討，大概有個額度，比較適當的額度，而且財委會也在上個會期有做這樣的決議，但是行政院認為不必，其實25年來有藍有綠都執政過，而財劃法幾乎也是一次又一次的都有討論過，因為財劃法制定以來就有許多不同的意見出現，各地方政府也有不同的主張，就算討論再多，多半到最後沒有一個具體的結論，有媒體報導行政院希望中央用全國的高度與角度來看，才能夠在兼顧合理性、公平性以及維護中央政府財務韌性等多重考量下，進行相關的法制規劃及調整。我請問院長，以您的高度來看，到底是由誰來提案才能夠達到真正客觀、公平、合理，以及維護財政的韌性？你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，多年來中央與地方的財政合作一直呈現很正面的價值，現在各縣市地方政府的債務比例也持續在下降，表示中央除了在公建計畫上面，比方說捷運及很多科學園區的設置，都是中央全力在支持的，更有很多的道路系統、交通系統及防洪治水預算，也都是中央全力在做，而且相當多都是跨縣市、區域性的在做，這個如果由單一縣市來做，我想在執行上會明顯困難。中央累積過去這麼多年的經驗，我們可以在財政分配上及各種建設比例上做好好的規劃，我覺得現在這個財政收支劃分法是目前來看我們最有把握執行的。"],["林委員德福：所以院長的看法還是中央來分配就對了？就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是分配，是中央與地方的財政合作。"],["林委員德福：維護財政的韌性是中央政府還是地方政府？還是財政部？還是執政黨立委？還是在野黨立委？依您看呢。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，中央與地方是財政合作，並不只是分配而已。"],["林委員德福：院長，二十多年來時空環境變遷，中央及地方政府經歷多次的政黨輪替，為了鞏固執政權力，充滿算計下的修法讓財劃法修與不修都有立場，只是長期失衡的財政環境應該由全民來買單嗎？你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，報告委員，過去這麼多年來，我們透過一般補助，透過統籌分配稅款，以及各種交通跟其他各項的公共建設補助跟地方合作，我想部長有很清楚的數字可以向委員說明，而且這個是持續增加的。"],["林委員德福：我請問院長，難道一直沒有找到共識就能夠作為財政部不提出修法的主要理由？還是擔心修法後，出現中央與地方政府政治權力整個失衡的結果？又或者根本是考量、算計執政和在野黨恐怕因為修法後失去政權，所以根本將財劃法的修法視為畏途？院長，說說你的看法。"],["卓院長榮泰：完全不是，我們正在尋求最高的共識，我剛剛有說過了，我很欣慰看到大院內部的朝野協商又將進行展開，我覺得展開之後，不僅限於總預算的議題，其他的議題大家都可以開誠布公地來談，談的就是讓人民感覺到安心。"],["林委員德福：院長，本席認為有權就要有責，有責就要有法可循，行政院應該要逆向思考，重整修法邏輯的思維，我相信許多顧慮都可以迎刃而解，您的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長答復一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告……"],["林委員德福：有權當然要有責啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，財政跟事權必須要劃一，現行雖然沒有修法，但是透過中央統籌跟一般性補助款，113年的金額達到6,356億，比105年成長了46.7%，在114年更會增加900億，如果再加上計劃型補助款就接近兆元了，所以中央對於地方財政的挹注一直是非常大，是不遺餘力的去支持相互的合作夥伴關係，因為中央好，地方一起好，這樣才是我們最終的目的。至於共識是一定要有的，沒有共識，提出修法還是不會有結果。"],["林委員德福：院長，我相信這一次，整個財政委員會絕對會，要是行政院不提出修法的版本，那財委會現在做的決定，到時候一定會送到院會來做最後的決定。我認為要是由行政院來提出版本是最適當的，既然行政院不提出版本，我相信財委會最後一定會討論出一個結論來。院長，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望還是經過大院內部的協商以及兩院之間談這個事情，行政院不是沒有版本，現行的版本，我一直強調，是現在最好的版本，我們看不到更好的版本。"],["林委員德福：好，那我就尊重你。院長，臺灣消費者物價指數年增率已經連續三年超過2%，以往外界習慣將2%定為通膨的警戒線，央行解釋，臺灣屬於一個小型開放的經濟體，採具彈性的物價穩定定義，應較為妥適。然而，主計總處公布今年9月消費者物價指數CPI是1.82%，跌回2%的通膨警戒線以下，以此數據來看，請問院長，數據發生變化是代表國內通膨情況緩和，還是只是短期現象的一個反饋？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，數據當然是一個非常科學的計算跟統計，但是過去從COVID-19之後一直到世界發生戰爭，到底卻造成了很多原物料的上漲，我們也必須承受這個部分，但是相對來看，相信數據之外，我更重視的是，我們到每一個小店家買東西的那樣一個感覺，這個才是人民真正的生活。我們希望大家基本的生活能夠穩定，不要因為這樣一個外在的國際因素造成太多的浮動，所以，我們在這次的電價調整方案當中完全不調民生的用電，用意就是在穩定民生。"],["林委員德福：即使你沒有調民生用電，到最後還是一樣，為什麼？第一個，行政院編列預算來補助電力公司，然後你把工業用電調整12.5%，到最後都還是一樣加在消費者的身上。"],["卓院長榮泰：經過計算，工業用電的調整對於生產者的成本計算是微乎其微的。"],["林委員德福：其實，院長，執政者當然要苦民所苦，你看外面所有的物價，你只要每天去買便當，便當價格上漲以後它絕對不會下來的，我相信你也很清楚。過去買便當大概70、80元，最多100元就可以買到，現在你100元買不到什麼可以吃的便當，甚至要120、130、150元，我相信大家心知肚明。而且老百姓的痛苦指數是越來越高，因為我沒有賺那麼多錢，但我的消費要那麼多，過去同樣的金額可以買更多的東西，現在越買越少。所以，請問院長，對於未來CPI年增率的變化，主計總處這樣樂觀的看待，院長，你的看法和主計總處一致的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然希望穩定的維持在2%以下，即使它超越一點點，那我覺得這個還在可控的範圍……"],["林委員德福：那你認為這個不是短期現象就對了？未來就是會維持在2%以下？"],["卓院長榮泰：那我們現在還在百分之一點九幾嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：1.82%。"],["卓院長榮泰：1.82%，目前還是控制在1.82%。"],["林委員德福：1.82%，那你認為未來還是都會維持在2%以下嗎？還是短暫的現象？"],["卓院長榮泰：不，是我們長期努力的目標，但是國際的因素必須考慮在內，但是我們有做好所有因應的準備跟措施。"],["林委員德福：院長，雖然10月電價調漲的政策，台電評估得出間接影響CPI差不多0.03%，雖然環境部宣布明年徵收的碳費對CPI的影響約0.01%，更對多家企業喊話就像針扎一下下的這種感覺。我請問院長，你是不是能夠保證一定不會觸發物價通膨的擴散效應，會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：除了剛剛委員所說的這兩項因素之外，我們可控的部分，我們儘量控制在合理的範圍當中……"],["林委員德福：很多上漲的……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是國際上的因素，我們會做好萬全的準備。"],["林委員德福：物價上漲了就下不來，所以很多老百姓過去能夠買那麼多東西，現在買不到，他們的痛苦指數就越來越高啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們今年的CPI也曾經在某一季達到二點多，現在也降到1.82，它還是會浮動的，只要跟國際的因素，跟國內的季節關係等各方面綜合起來，還是會在我們可控的範圍內。"],["林委員德福：好，院長，環球金融雜誌最新公布2024年主要國家央行總裁的評比，這個跟楊總裁有關係，我國央行楊總裁今年獲B+級的評等，請問院長針對今年環球金融雜誌對央行楊總裁的評等有什麼看法？因為外界對已經獲得4A的楊總裁這次評等是B+有幾個不同的解讀，包括受通膨拖累、房市政策一改再改，甚至於連漲電價、升息的決策都是降評的原因，請問你認為哪一個可能是導致降評的主因？"],["卓院長榮泰：我先幫楊總裁鼓勵一下，再請總裁說明。","要維持都是A+，那是非常辛苦的一件事情，但也維持了那麼久，就像大谷翔平連續36次盜壘，總會失敗1次，但是失敗的那一次不會影響他是偉大的球員，我請楊總裁說明。"],["林委員德福：楊總裁，你有什麼看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想就中央銀行的立場來觀察它，當然，我們中央銀行還是有持續努力的空間，這是我的看法。"],["林委員德福：那是你很客氣啦！院長，對於央行總裁評等的看法或許有許多不同的解讀，但是對於央行政策到底要和國際央行接軌還是脫鉤，我請問院長有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我覺得重要，我一直認為我們的金融、匯率等等市場應該更國際、更開放、更自由、更創新，所以要跟國際接軌，央行也必須要做很多的創新，現在央行除了對國內的匯率以及各項的金融穩定之外，我想央行也會隨著這個潮流，跟國內所有的行庫一樣，展現一個跟國際市場能夠強力接軌的模式。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，我再請教你，依您的看法，現階段到底我們應該要順應潮流還是走自己的路？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要順應潮流，但是我們的國情跟國家的特色及優點也要保持住，但一定要跟國際接軌。"],["林委員德福：院長，中華經濟研究院公布9月製造業採購經理人指數PMI出現中斷先前連4個月的擴張轉為緊縮，是近半年來最低值，從這項調查顯示，國際景氣似乎有逐漸下滑的這種趨勢。院長，現在已經進入第4季，央行為了打通膨、打炒房，似乎和現階段政策目標有一段距離，換句話說，說不定還有其他殺手鐗要推出。請問院長，如果未來國際景氣繼續下修的話，現階段央行打通膨、打炒房的作法到底是應該如何加碼，還是有條件的修正？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們也看到比方說有很多歐洲國家現在都可能面臨到通縮的狀態，但是無論如何要維持國內金融穩定，央行最近所提出的這些政策經過適度的修整之後，應該讓社會來實施一段時間，我們是支持的，但是央行在穩定國內金融市場之外，它對整個匯率的掌握也相當的準確，這個是央行過去很好的表現。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-15","影片長度":"00:15:44","end_time":"2024-10-15T09:32:36+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155465","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","duration":944,"start_time":"2024-10-15T09:16:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a3ab458bd335e945184902e4f5c000e3624c79fb42d37a1a9a5fd702efe9c15bb2b46c06798901d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.90159375,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.05346875,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.27659375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.06096875,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.127218750000004,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.612218750000004,"end":74.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.85471875,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.97284375000001,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.99784375,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.01034375,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.71034375,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.00534375000001,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.78534375000001,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.32846875,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.03784375000001,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.09346875,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.66721875000002,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.39284375,"end":168.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.21034375000002,"end":180.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.38659375,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.17471875,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.83659375000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.67596875,"end":199.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.59471875000003,"end":200.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.86034375000003,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.50159375,"end":203.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.59409375,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.61471875,"end":208.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.65659375,"end":216.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.69346875000002,"end":229.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.80096875,"end":242.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.01409375000003,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.45659375000002,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.57034375,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.53159375,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.02034375,"end":257.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.81721875,"end":315.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.20534375,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.09971875,"end":320.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.40284375000005,"end":321.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.76971875000004,"end":323.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.69346875,"end":328.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.97159375,"end":327.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.14846875,"end":328.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.60409375,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.89471875000004,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.81846875,"end":334.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.09971875,"end":347.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.84596875,"end":362.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.54096875000005,"end":354.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.83096875,"end":372.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.68159375000005,"end":384.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.91221875,"end":381.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.86534375,"end":407.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.00034375,"end":385.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.20784375000005,"end":407.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.30909375000005,"end":407.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.35971875,"end":412.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.55721875,"end":416.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.13034375,"end":437.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.14409375,"end":438.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.61221875,"end":443.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.21909375,"end":443.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.25284375,"end":478.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.42034375000003,"e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早 金融韌性也是臺灣韌性的一部分 我們要對接國際那首先非常感謝我們的政府傾聽民意 採納本席的建議在9月30號的時候有正式宣布 開放專業投資人附委託來投資國外的虛擬資產的現貨ETF 包含比特幣等等"},{"start":53.735,"end":73.964,"text":"那這可以說是我們邁向虛擬世界數位金融的一小步,但是也可以說是一大步,但是這應該只是開始,不是結束,也應該不要停下來。所以想先請教一下院長,我們對於國內的金控公司或國內的企業來自己發行我們國內的虛擬貨幣的ETF有沒有相關的研議?"},{"start":74.984,"end":75.244,"text":"有機會持續跟上"},{"start":96.696,"end":117.206,"text":"我想接下來還是要跟您分享一下我們在之前8月份的時候有受邀到日本參加WebEx的一個日本最大的活動之一那前首相岸田文雄也在上面講了Web3包含AI包含區塊鏈是解決社會問題的重要基礎"},{"start":119.006,"end":135.395,"text":"經濟產業大臣齋藤健也在主題演講當中提出日本正在迎來各種問題其實區塊鏈可能是解決這些問題數位金融解決這些問題的一個非常重要的創新方式日本正在推動自己成為全球創新中心"},{"start":136.155,"end":156.823,"text":"那當我們的鄰國抓住了這些金融科技的一些這個機會想要變成中心的時候反觀我們在臺灣您上任以來說我們很創新很行動但是我們有看了你們上任以來推出的各項政策對金融科技剛剛我們也提到金融兵推其實還是有點不太前瞻想請教一下院長"},{"start":157.643,"end":166.703,"text":"之前一直有傳言說金管會正要計畫組織、調整、要新設虛擬資產管理局。 請問目前研議的進度如何?"},{"start":167.731,"end":194.031,"text":"報告委員,我想剛才提到委員確實我們在整個台灣的金融政策最近有一些比較大的不同陳柱委員剛才講的未來整個比如說金融科技的發展是一個很多國家關注的議題那我們也開始在關注這一題因為未來我們從傳統金融走向數位金融的過程當中剛才提到很多的技術的演進都充滿了不確定也充滿了機會所以比如說跟委員報告一下我們本來是我們要"},{"start":194.631,"end":196.092,"text":"那今天院長剛好在 我也繼續幫你們爭取一下"},{"start":219.326,"end":246.259,"text":"因為我們的理解是虛擬貨幣跟虛擬通貨都還是留在正期局那我想問一下正期局目前有多少人力來處理虛擬貨幣的業務現在報告委員這確實是我們面臨到一個很大的問題這是我們在處理那個這個VASP的專法的時候陳鵬院裡面給我們13位人力但是因為這個人力要跟市場上在競爭非常的困難我們現在補充這個人力遇到很大的困難但是我們還持續在努力"},{"start":247.199,"end":248.52,"text":"麻煩院長了解一下,因為這個市場非常大,超過兩兆美元。"},{"start":265.774,"end":282.413,"text":"現在所有的美國總統候選人都在討論我們台灣的BASP也就是虛擬資產的業者也成立工會我們這個產業正在正常化可是呢我們這個人力其實還是不太夠那接下來呢很可能一些新創的業者他要去找政績局他的能力也不足"},{"start":282.853,"end":306.839,"text":"他要去找創新處他可能能力也不足跟金控公司或大的企業比起來我想跟院長拜託也具體向您提出要求未來可能會有一些中小型的虛擬資產業者尋求政府的協助我們建議是要去成立一個獨立的而且全責的窗口跟溝通機制去幫助這些業者在發展當中的時候可以比較容易跟政府進行協作"},{"start":307.919,"end":334.606,"text":"這個院長能不能在此具體承諾﹖把緣額也補充足﹖讓我們在虛擬金融、數位金融中心這一塊找一點超車﹖謝謝委員﹖我們這個相關的這個業務是起頭中﹖那起頭之後﹖我想﹖窗口、人力﹖軍管會他會就人力的是不是足夠﹖您具體承諾他才有辦法嗎﹖他會就人力是否足夠﹖能力能不能去﹖如果他說不足﹖院長是不是可以來協助﹖如果他提出"},{"start":335.246,"end":336.808,"text":"今晚會也真的是很創新,10月8日有宣布"},{"start":351.361,"end":369.81,"text":"開放銀行跟券商申請虛擬資產保管業務的事辦。 那我們拭目以待,希望據說明年第一季要正式上路,希望一定要準時,因為我們已經落後。所以沒問題,我想這部分我們也是在,我剛剛跟委員報告過,我們傳統金融要轉型在未來的數位金融的時候,我們也要先讓銀行習慣這樣的一個發展,再來就是"},{"start":372.831,"end":377.392,"text":"這個保管方式我們之後再來交流那接下來我想創新其實我們還有一條路徑是金管會一直都有在提的就是現實資產代幣化RWA Real World Assets"},{"start":397.276,"end":415.882,"text":"那這個目前事辦的規劃不知道院長知不知道Real World Assets的具體演繹跟規劃進度如何?有沒有業者提出事辦或實驗?我想這部分也跟委員報告一下因為這也是一個很新的東西我們也觀察到未來可能越來越多實體世界的資產可能透過剛才區塊鏈的技術"},{"start":417.202,"end":417.962,"text":"明年應該就會有一些具體的成績出來"},{"start":443.257,"end":467.788,"text":"好,如果有需要也記得編列相關預算到總預算裡面那提到RWA也要和院長談談這個可能是院長的高度要來關注一下我們的穩定幣Stable Coin因為RWA底下其實有一塊就是穩定幣穩定幣並不是一個虛無縹緲的東西要有人把真金白銀放到他的左手他的右手才可以在區塊鏈在數位世界裡放出等量的"},{"start":468.268,"end":468.428,"text":"主席"},{"start":482.059,"end":503.036,"text":"我們現在看到的這些國家﹐日本、新加坡、美國﹐都已經陸續納管﹐而且有的、還沒的也正在討論﹐隨著相關的法案的上路﹐今晚會要提出的這個虛擬資產專法﹐會不會放盡、會不會討論穩定幣的發行﹐格外受到矚目﹐想請問一下院長﹐明年行政院提出的虛擬資產專法﹐會不會討論到﹐或者納入穩定幣的規範﹐"},{"start":508.258,"end":528.657,"text":"報告委員 這個因為討論的現在過程還沒有到院裡面來我想金管會會很充分的去掌握跟了解是 我想在這邊跟委員報告一下因為我們這個案子確實是我們在上個會期有答應立法院我們今年年底我們會提出一個草案但是我們真正的法案剛剛陳律師院長提到了我們到明年6月才會送到院裡面來"},{"start":529.358,"end":556.253,"text":"有沒有穩定幣的部分剛剛委員提到就是說我們當時這部專法是先從洗錢防治開始出發我們現在走到第三階段我們現在第四階段是才會進行所謂專法專法這部分我們在研究報告裡面有在討論報告裡有法令可能沒有這個範圍我們還沒有確定我們還有經過公聽還有跟各個部會協商我們才會做確定我們現在還在研議中我們跟院長報告一下我們已經幫你做好功課了"},{"start":556.693,"end":573.623,"text":"目前我們台灣只有規範到穩定幣的交易面我們沒有辦法發行其實跟各國比起來已經非常落後了日本已經有可以發行而且他已經有牌照那當然我們不一定要做牌照的制度但是穩定幣在台灣現在是一個薛丁格的幣"},{"start":574.423,"end":596.529,"text":"不知道他到底是什麼樣的存在狀態請教院長行政院曾經邀集金管會跟央行跨部會協調穩定幣規範的權責分配有沒有做過還是有沒有要確定穩定幣的主責機關否則接下來明年可能全世界各國都會發行穩定幣而且是由企業不是由央行這個可不可以來承諾一下將來我們這個"},{"start":598.71,"end":613.647,"text":"金管會所做的任何草案、專法的草案在討論的過程當中,我們會進一步的...所以穩定幣是跟金管會討論,不是跟央行?我想都會,都會討論。會一起討論。都會討論的問題就是不知道要找誰啊?沒有,總之最後專法出來一定會有一個..."},{"start":614.748,"end":629.996,"text":"主管機關現在沒辦法決定,各國都已經,我們要不要再回去看其他國家到底有多少啊?然後我們現在還不知道主責機關是誰嗎?一個新的法律的研議的過程,我們會參考國外現行的例子,來做我們重要的參考,也要符合我國的國情。"},{"start":631.567,"end":645.84,"text":"福和國情是對的,但是這不能當作永遠落後的藉口。我們在金融中心指數排行全世界第73名,今年還降低5分。數位金融中心沒有排名,我們應該要早一點努力要超車嘛。"},{"start":647.101,"end":670.949,"text":"這個方向我們一定會朝這來走我剛才只是跟委員提到比如說有關穩定面跟交易面跟發行面本來就有很多不同的考量我是希望趕快落地下來到底哪一個主責機關院長您發揮您的領導統一跟高度趕快決定如果沒有確定的部會都討論那就等於沒有討論那我們接下來來看為什麼這些問題這麼的重要因為全世界都在擁抱數位資產"},{"start":672.749,"end":688.022,"text":"邁阿密的市長已經領了很多年,用他的薪水領的是比特幣、數位貨幣。 路易斯安那州的財政部9月17日公告,州政府計劃接受加密貨幣作為支付國家費用的合法方式。 州長甚至說,"},{"start":689.143,"end":717.566,"text":"當今數位的時代政府系統必須不斷發展並擁抱新技術。 瑞士的盧加諾也表示要開放民眾使用比特幣和穩定幣來繳稅、支付罰單。 這些都是全世界已經發生、正在發生的事情。 數位貨幣的應用和研發的新創人才、資訊人才、AI人才是高度重疊的。 這也是為什麼日本跟美國非常重視。 我們整理了很多各國"},{"start":719.027,"end":742.524,"text":"其實包含瑞士包含泰國包含阿聯酋都有做稅務的優惠去鼓勵大家投入請問院長是不是可以站在鼓勵創新的角度可以給予數位貨幣相關的產業他如果是合規合法的給他們一定程度的付稅優惠打造我們成為數位金融世界的中心可不可以承諾我想一般的國人"},{"start":743.183,"end":744.023,"text":"我向院長報告 現在有很多的詐騙集團"},{"start":769.096,"end":770.556,"text":"我們可以看到過去9個月來加密貨幣的議題已經跨越黨派了"},{"start":797.805,"end":804.855,"text":"民主黨的總統候選人現在是副總統他強調數位資產具有戰略重要性"},{"start":806.461,"end":829.407,"text":"特朗普說比特幣要列為戰略儲備這已經是美國兩黨的共識了所以我想要問現在我們有沒有關注到像眾議院的裴若曦跟70億民主黨員還支持了21世紀創新金融技術法案我們的不管是外匯存底我們的一些基金"},{"start":829.987,"end":830.227,"text":"請蔣總裁來說明"},{"start":859.06,"end":884.733,"text":"有關委員是提到就是說中央銀行的外資存底是不是可以考慮來納入這個比特幣不過我目前我跟委員報告我們也有經過審慎的一個研究到目前為止我們還不會把比特幣納入我們的外資資產那持續考慮可以嗎"},{"start":885.949,"end":905.095,"text":"當然當然,因為我想虛擬資產這是一個動態的發展,所以中央銀行也不會說一馬上就說要把這個比特幣把它納入我們的外資產當然要演繹,那院長我們如果要把戰略儲備裡面要納入比特幣,是哪一個部會啊?"},{"start":907.17,"end":919.061,"text":"這將來,到了我們該討論,讓它形成一套制度的時候,當然就是我們這個財經所有的部會來討論,將來一定會有需要的時候,到那個時候,就會有一個討論的方向出來。"},{"start":925.427,"end":935.295,"text":"最後我想說臺灣在人才上面本來是領先的,但是未來一定要您領導統一,希望所有人我們一起打造Web3下一代的護國神山。謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:16:52 - 09:32:36","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155465","gazette":{"lineno":140,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時17分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葛委員早。"],["葛委員如鈞：早。金融韌性也是臺灣韌性的一部分，我們要對接國際，首先非常感謝我們的政府傾聽民意，採納本席的建議，在9月30號的時候，正式宣布開放專業投資人複委託來投資國外虛擬資產的現貨ETF，包含比特幣等等。這可以說是我們邁向虛擬世界、數位金融的一小步，但是也可以說是一大步，這應該只是開始，不是結束，也應該不要停下來。所以想先請教一下院長，我們對於國內金控公司或國內企業自己發行國內虛擬貨幣的ETF，有沒有相關的研議？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，非常謝謝委員，我們都抓到國際虛擬貨幣市場這個脈動，覺得國內跟國際必須要有一個接軌，而現在從國際的部分，在我們現在瞭解狀況之後，已經做了第一步了。當然，我們要看看各方的反應，以及我們管理的狀況之後，我覺得這個不宜躁進，但是……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，有機會持續跟上啦！接下來還是要跟您分享一下，我們之前8月份的時候有受邀到日本，參加WebX日本最大的活動之一，前首相岸田文雄也在上面講了，Web3包含AI、包含區塊鏈，是解決社會問題的重要基礎。經濟產業大臣齋藤健也在主題演講當中提出，日本正在迎來各種問題，其實區塊鏈、數位金融是解決這些問題一個非常重要的創新方式，日本正在推動自己成為全球創新中心。","當我們的鄰國抓住了這些金融科技的一些機會想要變成中心的時候，反觀我們在臺灣，您上任以來說我們很創新、很行動，但是我們有看你們上任以來推出的各項政策，對金融科技，剛剛我們也提到金融兵推，其實還是有點不太前瞻。想請教一下院長，之前一直有傳言說金管會正要計畫組織調整，要新設虛擬資產管理局，請問目前研議的進度如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我想剛才提到，確實我們在整個臺灣的金融政策，最近有一些比較大的不同，誠如委員剛才講的，未來整個比如說金融科技的發展，是一個很多國家關注的議題，我們也開始在關注這個議題，因為未來我們從傳統金融走向數位金融的過程當中，剛剛提到很多技術的演進，都充滿了不確定，也充滿了機會。","跟委員報告一下，過去很多輿論提到我們要成立一個局，實際上，我剛才講中央政府組織有一定的規範，我們這個局可能現在在法律上是有困難，不過，感謝行政院長，剛剛有針對我們未來的金融科技發展，我們要新成立一個處，叫做金融發展與創新處，我想這裡面很多的職能，就是在促進剛才委員提到的內容。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了！今天院長剛好在，我也繼續幫你們爭取一下，因為我們的理解是，虛擬貨幣跟虛擬通貨都還是留在證期局，我想問一下，證期局目前有多少人力來處理虛擬貨幣的業務？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這確實是我們面臨到一個很大的問題，我們在處理VASP專法的時候，承蒙院裡面給我們13位人力，但是因為這個人力是要跟市場上來競爭，非常的困難，雖然我們現在在補充這個人力上遇到很大的困難，但是我們還是持續在努力。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們現在是得到8位，但不管是8到13位，全部在做這個業務還是兼任的？應該是兼任的吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在來講的話，因為我們補的人還沒有到位，所以現在大部分是由現任同仁來兼任處理這部分業務。"],["葛委員如鈞：麻煩院長了解一下，因為這個市場非常大，超過兩兆美元，現在所有的美國總統候選人都在討論；我們臺灣的VASP，也就是虛擬資產的業者也成立了公會，我們這個產業正在正常化，可是我們這方面人力其實還是不太夠。","接下來，很可能一些新創的業者要去找證期局，但它的能力也不足；要去找創新處，它可能能力也不足，跟金控公司或大的企業比起來。在此拜託院長，也具體向您提出要求，未來可能會有一些中小型的虛擬資產業者，去尋求政府的協助，我們建議成立一個獨立而且權責的窗口跟溝通機制，幫助這些業者在發展過程當中，可以比較容易跟政府進行協作，院長能不能在此具體承諾，把員額也補充足夠，讓我們在虛擬金融、數位金融中心這一塊早一點超車？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們這個相關業務是在起頭中，起頭之後，我想……"],["葛委員如鈞：窗口、人力。"],["卓院長榮泰：金管會會就人力是不是足夠……"],["葛委員如鈞：您具體承諾它才有辦法嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：它會就人力是否足夠、能力能不能去……"],["葛委員如鈞：如果它說不足，院長是不是可以來協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果它提出這樣一個檢討或是建議，當然我們會循內部的討論來做一個決定，但我非常支持金融創新是臺灣未來要走向國際以及健全我們金融市場重要的一段。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝！金管會也真的是很創新，10月8號宣布開放銀行跟券商申請虛擬資產保管業務的試辦，我們拭目以待，據說明年第一季要正式上路，希望一定要準時，因為我們已經落後了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有問題，我剛剛跟委員報告過，我們傳統金融要轉型，在未來數位金融的時候，我們也要先讓銀行習慣這樣一個發展。再來，過去大家對這些虛擬資產的信賴程度不夠，我們也希望透過由銀行來進行這個保管業務，更能加強這樣的信賴，也能夠讓銀行及早熟悉這個未來的發展趨勢。"],["葛委員如鈞：保管方式的部分我們之後再來交流。","接下來，關於創新，其實我們還有一條路徑是金管會一直都有在提的，就是現實財產代幣化Real World Assets（RWA），這個部分目前試辦的規劃，不知道院長知不知道Real World Assets的具體研議跟規劃的進度如何？有沒有業者提出試辦或實驗？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分也跟委員報告一下，因為這也是一個很新的東西，我們也觀察到未來越來越多實體世界的資產，可能透過剛才區塊鏈的技術，能夠做一些所謂代幣化，代幣化可以做到24小時低成本的交易，也可以做到信任，所以我們現在組成了這樣一個工作小組，結合了銀行，還有我們的證券公司，還有我們的集保，還有相關的周邊單位，目前正在組成一個工作群，正在研議這樣一個實驗中。"],["葛委員如鈞：什麼時候會有相關的時程出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經在進行中，大概明年應該就會有一些具體的成績出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，如果有需要，也記得編列相關預算到總預算裡面。","提到RWA，也要和院長談談，這個可能是院長的高度要來關注一下，就是穩定幣（stablecoin），因為RWA底下其實有一塊就是穩定幣，穩定幣並不是一個虛無飄渺的東西，要有人把真金白銀放到他的左手，他的右手才可以在區塊鏈、在數位世界裡放出等量所謂的美元或者數位美元，就是所謂的USDC，或者這些數位的穩定幣，它跟我們所謂的央行數位貨幣其實是不一樣的。目前我們看到一些國家，像日本、新加坡、美國，都已經陸續納管，還沒有的也正在討論。隨著相關法案上路，金管會所提出虛擬資產專法中會不會放進或討論穩定幣的發行格外受到矚目。想請問院長，明年行政院提出的虛擬資產專法會不會討論或者納入穩定幣的規範？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，因為還在討論過程，還沒有到院裡面來，我想金管會會很充分去掌握跟了解。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在這邊跟委員報告一下，我們在上會期就這個案子有答應立法院，在今年年底會提出草案。但誠如院長所提，真正的法案要到明年6月才會送到院裡面來……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有穩定幣的部分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：誠如剛剛委員所提，當時這部專法是從洗錢防制開始出發，現在已經走到第三階段，到第四階段才會進行所謂的專法。就專法這部分來說，我們在研究報告裡面有在討論……"],["葛委員如鈞：報告裡有，法令可能沒有。"],["彭主任委員金隆：範圍我們還沒有確定，還要經過公聽，還要跟各部會協商後才會做確定，現在還在研議中。"],["葛委員如鈞：跟院長報告一下，我們已經幫你做好功課了。目前臺灣只規範到穩定幣的交易面，還沒有辦法發行，跟各國比起來其實已經非常落後了。日本已經可以發行，而且有牌照，當然，我們不一定要做牌照制度，但現在穩定幣在臺灣是薛丁格的幣，不知道到底是什麼樣的存在狀態。請教院長，行政院是否曾邀集金管會跟央行做跨部會協調穩定幣規範的權責分配？請問有沒有做過？有沒有要確定穩定幣的主責機關？明年全世界各國可能都會發行穩定幣，而且是由企業，不是由央行。這個可不可以來承諾一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，將來金管會所做的任何草案、專法草案在討論的過程當中，我們會進一步了解……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以穩定幣是跟金管會討論，不是跟央行？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想都會討論。"],["彭主任委員金隆：會一起討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：都會討論的問題就是不知道要找誰！"],["彭主任委員金隆：總之，最後專法出來一定會有一個……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在還沒有辦法決定主管機關？我們要不要再回去看其他國家到底如何？然後我們現在還不知道主責機關是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：在一部新法的研議過程中，我們會參考國外現行例子來做我們重要的參考，畢竟也要符合我國的國情。"],["葛委員如鈞：符合國情是對的，但這不能當作永遠落後的藉口。我們在金融中心指數排行全世界第73名……"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解。"],["葛委員如鈞：今年還降低5分！數位金融中心沒有排名，所以我們應該早一點努力超車！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們一定會朝這個方向來走，我剛剛跟委員提到，穩定幣的交易面跟發行面本來就有很多不同考量……"],["葛委員如鈞：我是希望趕快落地下來，看到底是哪一個機關主責！請院長發揮您的領導統御跟高度趕快決定，如果沒有確定的部會都討論，那就等於沒有討論！","我們接下來來看，為什麼這些問題這麼重要？因為全世界都在擁抱數位資產，邁阿密市長的薪水領的是數位貨幣比特幣，而且已經很多年了；路易斯安納州的財政部9月17日公告，州政府計劃接受加密貨幣作為支付國家費用的合法方式。州長甚至說，當今數位時代，政府系統必須不斷發展並擁抱新技術。瑞士的盧加諾也表示，要開放民眾使用比特幣和穩定幣來繳稅、支付罰單，這些都是全世界已經發生、正在發生的事情。數位貨幣應用和研發的新創人才、資訊人才與AI人才高度重疊，這也是為什麼日本跟美國非常重視。我們整理了很多國家，包含瑞士、泰國、阿聯酋，都有賦稅優惠鼓勵大家投入。請問院長，是不是可以站在鼓勵創新的角度，給予數位貨幣相關產業，凡合規合法的就給他們一定程度的賦稅優惠，打造我們成為數位金融世界中心？可不可以承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：一般國人大概也不是全部都像委員這麼了解過程……"],["葛委員如鈞：臺灣有一百萬用戶……"],["卓院長榮泰：我說的是一般。看這樣的方式，我覺得可能有人羨慕、有人還是怕怕，所以我們還是要建立一套安全、穩定、可信而且可以保值的方式，這個我們有賴於各種形式的專法來建立之後，才能納進去一個合理……"],["葛委員如鈞：我向院長報告，現在有很多詐騙集團可能會不肖、不善地利用這些技術……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：因為政府對這些技術是不公開、不透明、不擁抱的，其實一旦擁抱了，投入了教育資源，大家反而不會被騙，這同時也是在做打詐，所以我跟院長交流……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們願意面對這個潮流的發展，趕快去接應這個世界的接軌，我們願意這樣做，也積極在做。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想作為院長，你一定也非常關注美國的總統大選，我們看到過去9個月來，加密貨幣的議題已經跨越黨派了，民主黨的候選人，現在是副總統，他強調數位資產具有戰略重要性，Donald Trump說要把比特幣列為戰略儲備，這已經是美國兩黨的共識了，所以我想問，現在我們有沒有關注到像眾議院裴洛西跟71位民主黨員還支持21世紀創新金融技術法案，我們不管是外匯存底、基金或戰略儲備，是不是也應該考慮納入比特幣或者數位資產來做為金融韌性的一部分？如果我們的金融沒有韌性，老實說，未來真的有一些巨大災害發生的時候也會非常危險啊，我們如果有很大一部分比例都在特定國家的資產上，這也會危險啊！我們能不能來研議這樣的一個作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：請楊總裁來說明。"],["楊總裁金龍：有關委員提到中央銀行的外匯存底是不是可以考慮來納入比特幣，我目前跟委員報告，我們也有經過審慎的一個研究，到目前為止，我們還不會把比特幣納入我們的外匯資產。"],["葛委員如鈞：那持續考慮可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然、當然，因為我想虛擬資產是一個動態的發展……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以中央銀行也不會馬上就說要把比特幣納入我們的外匯資產，這個是……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，當然要研議。院長，我們如果要在戰略儲備裡面納入比特幣，是哪一個部會啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：將來到了我們該討論讓它形成一套制度的時候……"],["葛委員如鈞：還是總統的委員會啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：形成一套制度的時候，當然就是我們財經所有的部會來討論，將來一定會有需要的時候，到那個時候就會……"],["葛委員如鈞：需要的時候來不及了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們正在討論……"],["葛委員如鈞：您可不可以提前指示、提前召集會議？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年就會有一個討論的方向出來嘛！"],["葛委員如鈞：最後我想說，臺灣在人才上本來是領先的，但是未來一定要您領導統御，希望所有的人一起打造Web3──下一代的護國神山，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是國防大學政治系的同學，我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪，謝謝。","下一位請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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委員長,我只關心今天只要回答我,金融兵推去年10月12日有做,今年做了沒?做好準備了沒?還是你們已經有相關的答案,非常穩,非常已經有把握不需要再做了?"},{"start":175.25,"end":176.671,"text":"對,還沒有做今年都沒有做嗎?沒錯"},{"start":201.767,"end":216.805,"text":"所以院長其實我現在的問題是發生事情因為現在有點像狼來了每天演習演到最後大家心理上面就沒有戒心了第二個他如果真的要發動動作的時候比如說他真的發了假簡訊告訴大家說ATM領不到錢"},{"start":219.063,"end":237.405,"text":"臺灣人可能有人會相信那這個部分其實政府要增強人民的信心而且要有建立正確的管道這個部分的金融兵推我覺得現在要做而且平常就要教育我們的民眾從現在開始可能金融上面的第一關是每個民眾都非常在意的"},{"start":238.326,"end":263.704,"text":"你看,烏克蘭發生災難第一件事情大家就是幹嘛?領錢,然後討難。 這兩件事情會是第一,優先。 所以這個部分,金融兵推,去年做過,今年可能還沒有完成。 那院長上任,我希望,是不是變成常態性的。 第二個,是不是有具體的兵推之後的檢討跟相關的精進的作業,甚至我希望開始要增加人民的信心。"},{"start":264.144,"end":287.719,"text":"好,跟我們報告,這個包括重要的基礎,關鍵基礎設施,民生維生系統,通訊系統,以及金融系統,交通系統,這個都是在我們全社會任性防衛當中,我們都會把它當作非常重要的事情來處理。我同意啊,因為我們,我在財政委員會啊,最關心的是我們三大龍頭,我們自己能不能先穩健,第二個,"},{"start":288.519,"end":314.264,"text":"一戰爭就要增加軍費﹖人民要繳更多的稅﹖第三個我們的錢夠不夠﹖我們有沒有準備好這些軍費﹖這才是我們關心的﹖好嗎那委員說最近以來這種軍艦、軍機﹖各種的演習很多、狀況很多﹖來的時候我們不慌不亂﹖沒有的時候我們也做好所有的準備﹖也不會任何的放鬆。 請委員放鬆。院長我希望金融兵推在你上任之後我可以看到第一次的金融兵推好嗎"},{"start":315.024,"end":316.946,"text":"我會跟部長跟總裁我們怎麼樣讓國人安心表達我們已經做好了充分的準備,這個謝謝委員的提醒。"},{"start":339.093,"end":361.938,"text":"每次院長我都會問同樣的問題啊財政收支劃分法從您上任第一次的總質詢還有部長我們在財政委員會其實講的非常多次那現在國民黨團他們也提出他們的修正版本將要靠攏民進民眾黨版本也就是我們上一次所提的這個修正案那目前為止我想只問你一句話"},{"start":362.598,"end":378.62,"text":"行政院要不要休?休還是不休?你們要不要提出自己的版本?兩點跟委員報告。第一,我們認為現在的版本具執行是行政院最有把握的。不是,你上次跟我說的嘛,已經是最佳的共識了。對,對,對。就25年來,現在是最好的狀況。"},{"start":379.321,"end":404.214,"text":"我們認為現在的版本來執行是我們最有把握的﹖而且我們會持續對地方政府做更多的補助﹖第二點呢﹖所以院長﹖你認為只要按照大有為的政府來決定就好﹖所以不需要入法﹖不需要制度化﹖就是按照你們現在的版本就是最好的版本﹖不是大有為的政府﹖之前陳水扁、蔡英文跟賴清德所說才化法要修正﹖他們是導彈鬼囉﹖"},{"start":405.808,"end":430.606,"text":"不是,這是這個時代的不同,時間的不同,我們各有不同的考量。時間的不同,我們只是希望把你講的最好的辦法入法而已。你現在所說的最好的辦法,我們希望它制度化、明確化,而不是單純的按照行政院自己的意志,而地方政府沒有參與的機會。沒有沒有,我剛剛只說了一點,我還有第二點,就是現在立法院的氣氛正朝向更好的方向發展。"},{"start":431.707,"end":455.175,"text":"我知道最近要展開草野協商我覺得這個事情也可以來進行草野協商重要的一部分那這個至於內容我想部長非常努力在溝通在收集在了解各方的意見沒錯院長我們就是要告訴你我們真的很希望這是民眾黨的版本我們很清楚的把垂直分配的金額跟數量都寫出來所以民眾黨的原則很簡單"},{"start":456.015,"end":460.179,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":482.108,"end":482.448,"text":"所以我們要設定的是叫做"},{"start":500.368,"end":519.466,"text":"統籌分配稅款分配委員會,委員會的部分就會讓財政部跟地方政府有相關討論的過程,而且讓財政部保留他們可以調節所謂的一般性補助款,調節他們的統籌分配稅款,所以民眾黨版本沒有訂建,但是要討論。"},{"start":522.068,"end":537.601,"text":"我們在上個會期在財政委員會做了一個很好的決議希望你們提出自己的版本我現在只有簡單的問行政院是不打算提版本嗎還是要等黨團協商還是要破釜沉舟還是要垂死掙扎"},{"start":538.605,"end":568.065,"text":"跟委員說明一下,非常贊成委員剛剛提到,第一個財政收支劃分法這件事情,第一個我們的前提,第一個要兼顧地方財政需求,而且要維新中央的一個政經來因應緊急的需要,我們也都在努力當中,那您提到的是垂直分配,那水平分配的部分事實上它更重要,因為涉及到同一方政府的分配,所以我們也召開會議,然後有更大集約一個更大的一個共識,這都在努力當中。"},{"start":568.285,"end":573.311,"text":"這三個問題跟委員報告,行政院的版本在沒有更好的之前,我們認為現在是最好的版本。在進入法案審查之前,我們認為現在的版本我們來執行是最有把握的。"},{"start":590.67,"end":617.058,"text":"將來我希望我們還是透過很誠懇的朝野協商來達到大家共同的共識。 院長我們在財政委員會我想委員都非常善意所以上個會期就希望我們幫的意見告訴了你們我們沒有說硬要怎麼樣但是今年這個會期看起來包括我們的召委會牌我們的版本也在裡面我們也希望你們有版本大家一起討論所以沒有人要強度關山但是"},{"start":618.263,"end":646.735,"text":"行政院不能假裝沒看見這件事情假設在立法院通過你們又要再來搞一次復議嗎還是要再來搞一次釋憲呢我們希望在討論的過程當中不要再製造朝野的對立我們要希望你們好好來討論朝野黨團好好的協商那行政院也能在適當的機會表達我們跟大院裡面的共同的討論沒錯所以拜託如果部長可以的話你說的水平分配你們認為有爭議的部分就拿到立法院來討論好嗎"},{"start":650.815,"end":676.26,"text":"主委請回主委上來就是院長我們還是要強調臺灣現在的融資公司其實叫做話外之地融資公司只要他有做公司登記任何公司都可以借錢給別人因為公司法只有規定40%以內資本額他就可以"},{"start":679.28,"end":705.599,"text":"所以我們現在坊間的融資公司各種樣態﹖大大小小﹖假買賣、徵貸款這種狀況非常的嚴重。今年起訴了兩個士官兵洩密去抵債。為什麼?因為他們去跟不法的或者是不知道哪裡來的所謂的融資公司借錢。還不出來就幹嘛?回去偷機密。"},{"start":706.59,"end":729.124,"text":"這是很嚴重的,剛剛我們講我們的國家安全很重要,然後我們的士官兵竟然用洩密來抵債,這個融資公司已經不單單只是社會問題了,它可能還是國家安全問題。另外這個部分就是我們主委也跟你談論過,我們台灣調查過的年輕世代的金融素養,"},{"start":730.492,"end":749.045,"text":"第一根極低竟然高達百分之八十一也就是大家不知道怎麼理財大家不知道要到哪裡去找到合法的融資管道然後甚至剛剛講的即使他已經是國軍官兵了他受了教育可能也不讓他不知道去哪裡借錢去借到了不該借的錢"},{"start":750.799,"end":773.741,"text":"更嚴重的是我們國軍的軍紀有一個規定嚴禁國軍向不法機構執押、執銷或營內籌組或聚會等情勢也就是說國軍不可以隨便去亂借錢也不可以去做一些執銷或者是說在裡面搞錢的事情但是我想問的是主委請問什麼叫做不法機構"},{"start":775.557,"end":789.183,"text":"報告委員 剛剛我講 全臺灣的公司只要是公司登記的就可以借錢 他是不是不法機構 是報告委員 其實有關融資註定公司在民國85年大家就開始討論到這個問題 到現在已經快30年 可見他的問題的複雜度很嚴重"},{"start":791.664,"end":821.007,"text":"像剛才提到就是說我們現在因為我們在銀行法或是在法律上融資借款並不是特許的業務是因為不是特許一般公司只要有符合登記他就可以做這個所謂的收賬款買賣之類的業務院長這就是我要今天提出來的這個事情很嚴重嚴重到說用放貸做掩護然後要求收集個資引發軍人洩密而且軍人很容易借到錢只要你說你是軍人每個公司都會借你錢為什麼很穩定"},{"start":822.261,"end":823.558,"text":"一定會反。 對不對?"},{"start":824.273,"end":844.206,"text":"對這也是我們金管會也觀察到這個問題也也也承蒙很多委員你要跟國防部好好討論一下最重要的是我今天的訴求還是很簡單我們要加強管理非金融機構的民間放貸行為這才是今天問題的嚴重性我們之前講有三家影子銀行三大租賃公司"},{"start":855.013,"end":881.72,"text":"主委,我很清楚你的主張。 院長,主委想做,你要不要支持他做?當然支持,我非常支持彭珠在這個方面提出的方法。那我現在就講,在96年的時候張俊雄院長的時候已經訂了融資公司專法,而且當時就以金管會為管理機關。 這件事情我相信主委也非常認真。"},{"start":882.64,"end":911.756,"text":"然後我們看到全世界國家裡面大部分都會成立專責機關目前只有臺灣沒有臺灣是一個經濟部要關幾十萬家公司的人在管所謂的融資處理公司他等於沒管其實金管會有一些比較替代性的方案正在執行中那我們未來希望能更具體的來做這件事情主委我希望訂專法這個專法同樣的民眾黨我們已經提了版本我相信民進黨團裡面有非常的委員也很重視這件事院長支持金管會把他納管"},{"start":912.506,"end":938.093,"text":"我支持首先必須納管,再來可以考慮各種形式的專法,將來加強他的登記條件以及他的審核,要嚴審。院長,可不可以在一個月之內給我一個初步的回應,把你剛剛所說的方向跟接下去要納管,我希望至少要納管到幾件事。第一個,這裡的資格,資金的準備,從業人員的資格,還有信用管制跟放貸條件,最重要的是違約金的上限。"},{"start":938.753,"end":956.814,"text":"報告委員,剛剛說的都是軍管會最近跟我說明的內容,我希望它在完整之後,我們將...好,謝謝黃委員。好,謝謝卓院長。林柱英委員之質詢以..."}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:00:44 - 09:16:42","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155464","gazette":{"lineno":18,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時）謝謝主席，我想請卓院長、金管會彭主委、財政部莊部長以及央行楊總裁。"],["主席：以上長官請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長好，以及3位首長好。我想這幾天大家都看到了中國對臺灣的步步進逼，現在的軍演以及貿易戰、法律戰其實出招不斷，雖然今天只有財政部門，我現在要問一下院長，這幾天看到演習，當然現在的侵擾已經是每一天都發生，我最關心的是金融上面相關的應對，也就是在烏克蘭戰爭中，最大的問題是它先做了一些金融上面的破壞，但是還好人家有做準備。我想問的是，今年3月的時候，金融研訓院說要加強兵推，然後部長在3月的回答是去年有做過，我想問一下，我們的金融兵推做好準備了沒有，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這真的是一個不平靜的時代，從烏俄戰爭到中東衝突，中國又肆意地隨時在臺灣周遭進行任何大大小小的狀況，昨天……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個已經不奇怪了，現在是未來可能在金融上面的破壞，尤其是它在烏克蘭戰爭發生之前，就做了一些金融體系的恐嚇，甚至發動假訊息給所有烏克蘭的手機說ATM領不到錢了，這件事情會不會在臺灣發生？我們做好準備沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：就拿昨天的例子，昨天總統一早召開了國安高層會議，聽取各方報告之後，做了重要的指示，隨後行政院回來之後通令各部會，我們希望在股匯市、經濟、民生以及資安方面，尤其資安，可能就如委員所說的，我們希望臺灣所有跟民生相關的或者重要基礎設施，任何的資安保全都要非常進入狀況，昨天我們就有做……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，今天只要回答我，金融兵推去年10月、12月有做，今年做了沒？做好準備了沒，還是你們已經有相關的答案，非常穩、已經非常有把握，不需要再做了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得任何的狀況我們都隨時要更新，去年所做的金融兵推，很抱歉我並沒有參與，今年這幾個月下來，除了隨時的警戒之外……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今年一整年可能還沒有做，部長，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，還沒有做。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：今年都沒有做嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：相關的兵推是整體性的，有財政部，也有金管會及央行等等，這個部分事實上是我們日常性、經常性的一個業務。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！院長，其實我現在的問題是，發生事情，因為現在有點像狼來了，每天演習演到最後大家心理上面就沒有戒心了。第二個，它如果真的要發動動作的時候，比如它真的發了假簡訊告訴大家說ATM領不到錢，臺灣人可能有人會相信，這個部分其實政府要增強人民的信心，而且要建立正確的管道。這個部分的金融兵推我覺得現在要做，而且平常就要教育我們的民眾，從現在開始，可能金融上面的第一關是每個民眾都非常在意的。你看烏克蘭發生戰爭的第一件事情大家就是幹嘛？領錢，然後逃難，這兩件事情會是第一優先。所以這個部分金融兵推去年做過，今年可能還沒有完成，院長上任之後，我希望是不是能變成常態性的。第二個，是不是有兵推之後的具體檢討，跟相關精進的作業，甚至我希望要開始增加人民的信心。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，跟委員報告，這個包括重要的關鍵基礎設施、民生維生系統、通訊系統、金融系統以及交通系統，這個都是在我們全社會韌性防衛當中，我們都會把它當作非常重要的事情來處理，雖然剛剛委員說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，因為我在財政委員會，我們最關心的是我們三大龍頭自己能不能先穩健。第二個，一戰爭就要增加軍費，人民要繳更多的稅。第三個，我們的錢夠不夠，有沒有準備好這些軍費，這才是我們關心的，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員說最近以來，各種軍艦、軍機，各種的演習很多，狀況很多，來的時候我們不慌不亂，沒有的時候，我們也做好所有的準備，也不會有任何的放鬆，請委員放心。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我希望在你上任之後，我可以看到第一次的金融兵推，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們來研議怎麼樣進行，讓國人更安心。"],["黃委員珊珊：儘快在短期內，在年底之前，至少就這些問題、這三個單位，我們是不是在金融方面先做好兵推？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我會跟部長和總裁討論，我們怎麼樣讓國人安心，表達我們已經做好了充分的準備，這個謝謝委員的提醒。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，總裁跟主委先請回，我請部長留下。院長，每次我都會問同樣的問題，財政收支劃分法，從您上任的第一次總質詢；部長，還有我們在財政委員會其實講了非常多次，現在國民黨團也提出他們的修正版本，將要靠攏民眾黨版本，也就是我們上一次所提的這個修正案，目前為止，我只問你一句話，行政院要不要修，修還是不修？你們要不要提出自己的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點跟委員報告，第一，我們認為現在的版本據以執行，是行政院最有把握的……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是你上次跟我說的嘛，已經是最佳的共識了……"],["卓院長榮泰：對、對、對，最佳……"],["黃委員珊珊：就25年來，現在是最好的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為以現在的版本來執行，是我們最有把握的，而且我們會持續對地方政府做更多的補助，第二點……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，所以你認為只要按照大有為的政府來決定就好，不需要入法，不需要制度化？按照你們現在的版本，就是最好的版本……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是大有為的政府。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以之前陳水扁、蔡英文跟賴清德說財劃法要修正，他們是搗蛋鬼囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這是時代的不同、時間的不同，我們各有不同的考量，我剛剛的第二點……"],["黃委員珊珊：時間的不同，我們只是希望把你講的最好的辦法入法而已，你現在所說的最好的辦法，我們希望它制度化、明確化，而不是單純地按照行政院自己的意志，而地方政府沒有參與的機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，我剛剛只說了一點，我還有第二點，就是現在立法院的氣氛正朝向更好的方向發展，我知道……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：最近要展開朝野協商，我覺得這個事情也可以來進行，是朝野協商重要的一部分。至於內容，我想部長非常努力在溝通、在蒐集、在瞭解各方的意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，院長，我們就是要告訴你，我們真的很希望，這是民眾黨的版本，我們很清楚地把垂直分配的金額跟數量都寫出來，所以民眾黨的原則很簡單，第一個，我們增加大概2,700億的垂直分配，對地方只會多不會少，但是也不能影響到中央運作，所以2,700億是我們覺得合理的，的確，你們每一年大概也都剩下二千多億的歲計賸餘。第二個部分是只要增加了，在水平分配的部分，原則上任何縣市都不會比現在少，其他政黨的版本可能會產生不同的落差，但是民眾黨希望在這個原則之下，這兩個其實很好修。第三個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長答復，但是我只請問一句，這樣的水平分配會不會強者越強，弱者更弱？請部長答復。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們要設定的是統籌分配稅款分配委員會，委員會的部分就會讓財政部跟地方政府有相關討論的過程，而且讓財政部保留他們可以調節所謂的一般性補助款、調節他們的統籌分配稅款，所以民眾黨版本沒有定見，但是要討論……"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我這邊也跟委員做一個說明……"],["黃委員珊珊：但最重要的是，院長，我們上個會期在財政委員會作了一個很好的決議，希望你們提出自己的版本，我現在只有簡單的問，行政院是不打算提版本嗎？是要等黨團協商，還是要破釜沉舟，還是要垂死掙扎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明一下，非常贊成委員剛剛提到的，第一個，財政收支劃分法這件事情，我們的前提要兼顧地方財政需求……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你講的我都聽過了，你只要告訴我們，你們提不提版本，yes or no就好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：而且要維持中央的韌性來因應緊急的需要……"],["黃委員珊珊：要不要提嘛！不提？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們也都在努力當中，您提到的是垂直分配，那水平分配的部分事實上它更重要，因為涉及到地方政府的分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，所以我們沒有定見，我們希望聽到你們的版本。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們也召開會議，然後集約更大的共識，這都在努力當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：很好，那就提版本。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個我們都在努力當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：很好，那就提版本。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們在努力當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，院長。"],["莊部長翠雲：至於剛剛委員所提的審議委員會……"],["卓院長榮泰：這三個問題跟委員報告，行政院的版本在沒有更好的之前，我們認為現在是最好的版本……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在是最好的。"],["卓院長榮泰：在進入法案審查之前，我們認為現在的版本我們來執行是最有把握的……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們還是不提？"],["卓院長榮泰：第三個，將來我希望我們還是透過很誠懇的朝野協商，來達到大家共同的共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，院長，我們在財政委員會，我想委員都非常善意，所以上個會期就希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們充分體會也瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們把意見告訴了你們，我們沒有說硬要怎麼樣，但是今年這個會期看起來，包括我們的召委會排，我們的版本也在裡面，我們也希望你們有版本大家一起討論，所以沒有人要強渡關山，但是行政院不能假裝沒看見，這件事情假設在立法院通過，你們要再來搞一次覆議嗎？還是要再來搞一次釋憲呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望在討論的過程當中，能夠……"],["黃委員珊珊：不要再製造朝野的對立，我們希望你們好好來討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠在大院朝野黨團好好的協商，行政院也能在適當的機會表達我們跟大院裡面共同的討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以拜託部長，如果可以的話，你說的水平分配、你們認為有爭議的部分，就拿到立法院來討論，好嗎？時間暫停，我們請金管會彭主委，部長請回。"],["主席：彭主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，主委上來了，院長，我們還是要強調，臺灣現在的融資公司其實叫做化外之地，融資公司只要它有做公司登記，任何公司都可以借錢給別人，因為公司法就有規定40%以內資本額就可以借錢給別人，所以我們現在坊間的融資公司各種樣態、大大小小，假買賣、真貸款這種狀況非常的嚴重。今年起訴了兩個士官兵洩密去抵債，為什麼？因為他們去跟不法的或者是不知道哪裡來的所謂融資公司借錢，還不出來就幹嘛？回去偷機密，這是很嚴重的。剛剛我們講我們的國家安全很重要，然後我們的士官兵竟然用洩密來抵債，融資公司已經不單單只是社會問題，它可能還是國家安全問題。","另外，這個部分有跟主委談論過，我們臺灣調查過年輕世代的金融素養，低跟極低竟然高達81%，也就是大家不知道怎麼理財，大家不知道要到哪裡去找到合法的融資管道，甚至剛剛講的，即使他已經是國軍官兵了，他受了教育，可能也不知道去哪裡借錢，去借到了不該借的錢。更嚴重的是我們國軍的軍紀有一個規定，嚴禁國軍向不法機構質押、直銷及營內籌組互助會等情事。也就是說國軍不可以隨便去亂借錢，也不可以去做一些直銷，或者是說在裡面搞錢的事情。但是我想問的是，主委，請問什麼叫做不法機構？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我想……"],["黃委員珊珊：剛剛我講全臺灣的公司只要做公司登記的就可以借錢，它是不是不法機構？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實有關融資租賃公司，在民國85年大家就開始討論到這個問題，到現在已經快30年，可見它的問題的複雜度……"],["黃委員珊珊：很嚴重。"],["彭主任委員金隆：像剛剛提到，因為現在我們在銀行法或是在法律上融資借款並不是特許的業務……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，因為不是特許。"],["彭主任委員金隆：一般公司只要有符合登記，它就可以做所謂的……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！"],["彭主任委員金隆：應收帳款買賣之類的業務。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這就是我今天要提出來的，這個事情很嚴重，嚴重到說用放貸做掩護，然後要求蒐集個資，引發軍人洩密，而且軍人很容易借到錢，只要你說你是軍人，每個公司都會借你錢，為什麼？很穩定，一定會還，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們金管會也觀察到這個問題，也承蒙很多委員非常關心這個問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要跟國防部好好討論一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：最重要的是，我今天的訴求還是很簡單，我們要加強管理非金融機構的民間放貸行為，這才是今天問題的嚴重性……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒有錯，現在金管會……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們之前講有三家影子銀行，三大租賃公司……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，跟委員報告一下，我們剛剛才跟三大所謂的租賃公司做完協商，而且也跟……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，但是那只有三大，現在小的更多啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們會逐步來處理，這次政府會非常直面這個問題，我想這部分應該來做……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我現在清楚你的主張，院長，主委想做你要不要支持他做？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然支持，我是非常支持彭主委在這個方面的努力及提出的方法。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我現在就講在96年的時候，張俊雄院長已經訂定了融資公司專法，而且當時就以金管會為管理機關。這件事情我相信主委也非常認真，我們看到全世界國家裡面，大部分都會成立專責機關，目前只有臺灣沒有，臺灣是一個經濟部在管幾十萬家公司，所謂的融資租賃公司等於沒管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實金管會有一些比較替代性的方案正在執行中，未來希望能更具體的做這件事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以主委，我希望訂定專法，這個專法，同樣的民眾黨已經提了版本，我相信民進黨團裡面有非常多的委員也很重視這件事，院長，請支持金管會把它納管。"],["卓院長榮泰：我支持首先必須納管，再來可以考慮各種形式的專法……"],["黃委員珊珊：同意。"],["卓院長榮泰：將來加強它的登記條件，以及它的審核要嚴審。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，可不可以在一個月之內，給我一個初步的回應，把你剛剛所說的方向，以及接下來要納管，我希望至少要納管到幾件事，第一個，設立的資格、資金的準備、從業人員的資格，還有信用管制跟放貸條件，最重要的是違約金的上限。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛說的都是金管會最近跟我說明的內容，我希望在完整之後，我們向大家來說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒有問題，我想一個月之內我提書面報告給委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的，謝謝院長、謝謝主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","林楚茵委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林楚茵書面質詢：","一、金融漢光演習","現代戰爭不只是軍武戰爭，而是政治、金融、科技、網路和認知戰融合的「混和戰」，「金融韌性」尤為重要。中國長期於台海周邊實施軍演，台海緊張情勢大幅升溫，台灣應實施金融漢光演習，針對金融戰進行沙盤兵推，並涵蓋經濟封鎖及突發狀況等情境。","本席自2022年起即數次透過質詢及公聽會方式，呼籲行政院應盡速跨部會規劃「金融漢光演習」，以防止台灣遭受惡意攻擊。","近期屢傳國內金融機構遭受駭客DDoS攻擊，系統性癱瘓我國金融機構，造成台灣證券交易所、兆豐金控、彰化銀行、第一銀行等網站當機、連不上網頁等情況。甚至事發後數周仍有海外民眾因境外網域遭封鎖，而無法完全排除侵擾恢復正常交易。","顯見台灣金融環境有必要針對金融體系風險管理與緊急應對進行模擬演練，想定如市場崩潰、網路攻擊、流動性危機等情景，測試金融體系韌性和協作能力。俾利於提升金融機構及相關政府部門對於潛在金融危機的應對能力。","保衛資訊安全不能只是口號，網路安全已經成為無煙硝戰爭的重要關口。爰此，行政院應召集相關財金部門及國防單位共同研商規劃金融漢光演習。","二、財金單位嚴防中國認知作戰","媒體報導，「由永豐銀行、彰化銀行共同發起的大陸台資金融機構合作聯盟，27日在江蘇南京成立，與會30多家台資金融機構積極響應。」","依據新聞報導內容，公股行庫參與程度深入，有與南京金融城理事會簽訂合作備忘錄，雙方約定將在金融產業推介、兩岸青年人才交流、智庫成果分享等方面不斷深化合作。恐有違反《臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第33-1條》非經主管機關許可不得與中國黨政軍有任何形式合作的規定。","經了解，當日係一般交流活動，希望吸引更多金融業入駐及招攬更多台商至南京發展，以促進當地經濟發展，並未簽署任何文件或備忘錄。","惟台灣媒體受中國認知作戰影響，不論是否為有意的在地協力者，直接引用中國官媒《人民網》新聞報導錯誤的訊息，都將造成民眾誤解與不安。","錯誤訊息要立刻澄清，不能任其發酵，爰要求財金單位面對中國認知作戰威脅應研擬應對措施！","三、金融科技專責單位","金融應用發展變化多端且快速，然而相關的「金融科技發展與創新中心」卻僅是任務編組，且主管及承辦人員皆非專職，此與金管會一再強調重視金融科技不相符。","在科技因素導入金融業後，不論防止金融科技詐騙或協助金融科技發展都需要更多了解科技的人才進入金融圈，金管會應該提出整體整合的規劃，成立專責局處負責相關業務。","2023年5月份，本席於財政委員會質詢時，時任主委黃天牧承諾研議成立金融科技專責局處，今（2024）年度5月份，金管會主委彭金隆也於業務報告中承諾將設立金融市場發展與創新專責單位，惟報告迄今尚未有提供規劃進度及設立方式，爰請金融監督管理委員會說明並提供設立金融科技專責單位期程規劃及業務內容規劃。"],["主席：下一位請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長好 剛剛因為前面林倩琦委員有提到台語正名的議題 因為我也是教委會的委員那這個議題呢 在教委會其實經過很多委員充分的討論以及有相當多的民間團體長期在關心 並非沒有討論尤其我也是提案人之一 所以我希望教育部還是要來聆聽民間的聲音 因為我們最重要是希望我們國家的多元族群"},{"start":56.816,"end":60.839,"text":"臺劇是我們未來的很重要的發展。 院長您就說您休息的時候甚至還看了很多的戲劇。 所以我想人選之人,院長您應該看過吧?"},{"start":80.118,"end":91.505,"text":"人選之人入圍亞洲內容大獎,其中陳妍霏也拿下亞洲最佳新人獎。 現在我們正在上映的小燕和吳愛麗拿到了韓國釜山國慶電影節評審團大獎。"},{"start":95.607,"end":113.73,"text":"李遠部長對媒體說,現在正是臺灣電影的最好時機。 所以我想這都是很多人,很多年我們政府給予臺灣的影視,也就是我們現在講的臺流,很多的支持所展現的成果。"},{"start":114.531,"end":138.797,"text":"但是除了影視之外音樂尤其是臺灣的流行音樂文化我想這也是我們臺灣非常非常強有潛力的產業尤其除了產業以外像我自己我個人從小學開始我們就喜歡聽流行音樂其實這個音樂的內涵對於我們的人格養成對於我們的思想思考甚至個性我想都有很大的影響所以我認為我們政府絕對"},{"start":141.411,"end":163.202,"text":"有必要也有責任來支持我們本土音樂的產業。我們看到在我們台灣的音樂發展當中其中嘻哈音樂正在崛起當中我們台灣有非常多很有潛力的嘻哈歌手甚至舉一個例子像熊仔熊信寬我們以前他台大應該算是我學弟"},{"start":163.982,"end":188.396,"text":"他在我們的金曲獎當中是在各個類型的音樂當中脫穎而出,拿下了金曲獎最佳華語專輯,這是一個很高的殊榮肯定。那像我們賴清德總統就職的時候,也找來了客家歌手王宗維,台語歌手柯瀟來演出,過去總統府的音樂會曾經也邀請過阿夸麵。"},{"start":189.717,"end":209.955,"text":"院長、部長、我想你們應該都認識阿誇麵,他就是在臺灣自製的嘻哈選秀節目大嘻哈時代第二季脫穎而出的冠軍。所以說用嘻哈這個音樂的類型來唱出我們臺灣本土的故事,或者是歌手個人的思想,"},{"start":210.987,"end":237.282,"text":"的發揮這個已經是展現出非常大的才華那我作為一個大嘻哈時代的粉絲其實因為我們在IG上面看到說第三季即將也要再上映了所以呢我也希望說我們的院長是不是可以跟我一起來努力我們一起來承諾說我們政府要可以給臺灣的流行音樂產業更強力的支持"},{"start":239.148,"end":256.406,"text":"謝謝委員 我真的應該跟委員多多學習因為我們這個年紀我們的旋律的能力都比不上這個節拍啦所以我們要努力去學習這麼快的變速而且它的很多在唱的過程當中語言的表達能力非常非常的強"},{"start":256.966,"end":259.45,"text":"前幾天在高雄打狗雞,滅火器主唱楊大正跟歌迷分享一段對話。"},{"start":272.048,"end":295.921,"text":"他就說因為現在臺灣有些歌手如果要進入中國市場的話必須要有些政治表態那很多歌迷可能因此就很傷心那大陣就跟歌迷說如果你很傷心你可以選擇離開但你不要出征那臺灣路線不是一條好走的路所以我不能要求每一個歌手藝人都要走這條路"},{"start":296.801,"end":317.357,"text":"但是呢,作為歌迷傷心可以離開,作為政府我想我們不能離開。臺灣路線當然不是一條好走的路,我們政府有責任,把這條路鋪得更加的安穩。我非常的希望說院長能夠承諾,我們能夠給臺灣的音樂產業更多的支持,好不好?"},{"start":320.606,"end":341.964,"text":"大嘻哈時代在參加軍中獎的時候我當時是評審我也給他最佳音樂獎跟創新獎大嘻哈時代所帶領的新的這些選手給我一個很大的震撼就是臺灣要發展出自己的音樂嘻哈是一個非常好的類別因為他是"},{"start":342.244,"end":342.664,"text":"臺語、客語、原住民語"},{"start":356.624,"end":382.191,"text":"有些人因為市場去了中國大陸以後我覺得他會受限制因為中國大陸市場不太可能被大家用這麼諷刺的語言批判所以我在這裡跟委員保證除了大嘻哈時代這種節目之外我們會繼續努力推出一些音樂劇甚至於到國際上去辦這種音樂劇把這個大嘻哈這種東西成為我們台灣音樂的一個特色"},{"start":383.573,"end":389.733,"text":"是,這個在大政對革命的呼籲當中,其中關鍵,我想院長也很清楚,就在於市場。"},{"start":391.065,"end":393.207,"text":"其實我們做的研究,像馬來西亞它的定期會有嘻哈的那個表演,我們會尋找"},{"start":419.566,"end":422.048,"text":"文化也是我們新南向政策,非常重要的一環,是不是可以請院長來大力支持?"},{"start":438.285,"end":438.305,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":454.628,"end":471.345,"text":"那當初叫做斑斑有鮮奶,現在實際上以臺北市來說,因為各校要勾選一院嘛,有九成的學校都選擇保九乳,所以目前現況是叫做斑斑保九乳。那我想不知道院長有沒有相關的了解,我們是不是可以做得更周全一點?"},{"start":472.076,"end":497.027,"text":"沒有錯,在提供給地方政府跟學校來選擇的過程當中,現在有75%都選擇了飽酒乳。事實上它也可以適度的增加學童在鈣吸收方面的營養,但是我覺得我完全贊成委員所說的,在推出的時候可能私律上還有所欠缺,所以我們這一次是訂了三個月的短約,到今年年底,那明年的我已經"},{"start":498.237,"end":522.664,"text":"速度要求農業部跟教育部都要從長計議要設計一個完全可行不要增加學校負擔而且地方政府也能夠配合同時運送過程當中也能保證他的安全進到教室裡面去不增加教職人員跟學生太多負擔的狀況底下我們才可以實施那至於說目前已經在契約當中的"},{"start":523.524,"end":540.935,"text":"我還是可以檢討啦,我覺得我的用意可能在於說,如果學校真的有困難,地方政府也沒有辦法有強力的配合的話,那是不是我們不要太強制,但是已經在上路的這些學校,我們還是盡量的保持最好的狀況來提供給他們。"},{"start":542.156,"end":568.909,"text":"那當中還有沒有什麼可以補救的措施希望教育部能夠提出但是這個時間非常有限因為只有剩下兩個多月的時間做那個補救可能時間上都很緩所以應該是兩個一個是已經上路的持續的往更好的方向去走但是有困難的有質疑的有能力還沒有辦法搭配上來的那我們不要做任何的強制但這樣可能對小朋友的選擇來講會有一些失落但是我們明年從長計一來做處理"},{"start":570.618,"end":596.864,"text":"是,為什麼一定要在這個總結的時候提出來呢?因為我想我們絕對是有能力做更周旋的考慮,因為我覺得你們做得好,我們一定給肯定,但是該檢討我們還是要正式問題來檢討。像過去,因為我在過去是市議員嘛,這個院長知道,我們長期在關心教育,我在教委會,像我們的營養午餐,學校辦理有很嚴謹的程序,光是那個標準的SOP,"},{"start":597.344,"end":597.364,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":612.521,"end":614.602,"text":"現在的要求是明年度的新的實施如果沒有像做到剛剛委員所說的"},{"start":639.429,"end":649.541,"text":"地方政府學校透過團善或透過更好的機制能夠讓他保存很安全送到班上去的話那明年這個我也不會貿然來同意實施"},{"start":650.043,"end":672.398,"text":"好,謝謝院長,接下來要討論也是教育的問題,是老舊校舍的改建,因為行政院過去是有專案的預算在支持的,但是今年我目前看來是只有一般補助款,那過去我在議會我都在叫委員會,所以我們每一年審預算的時候,我們是一間一間學校的預算在審,這院長非常了解。"},{"start":673.098,"end":692.763,"text":"所以我們目前臺北市的現況來說10年以內臺北市超過50年的老舊校舍就會超過5成也就是過半喔也就是說我們臺北市有一半以上的孩子在10年之內假設我們現在不開始改建的話他們會在50年以上的老舊校舍當中學習"},{"start":693.763,"end":694.543,"text":"一百一十四到一百一八"},{"start":720.137,"end":736.733,"text":"是,那這個計畫未來是不是要送到由行政院來核定呢?是,那我們已經在作業當中了嗎?這個是114年到117年?是,沒錯,就是明年度。那之前我們98到111,"},{"start":739.161,"end":744.084,"text":"三百五十億的老舊校舍改建計劃全國邀請用,那這個預算行政院合定了,接下來這是不是要送到立法院來審查?"},{"start":765.674,"end":768.697,"text":"二十年以後臺北市有八成五以上的孩子都要生活在"},{"start":787.815,"end":787.835,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":808.533,"end":836.228,"text":"那這個細則我看了一下9月出來的細則裡面就包含了行人友善區行人優先區目的就是因為外媒曾經說我們台北市是行人地獄那一張照片就學童走在很危險的這個道路上是在我們台北市松山區所以我一直非常的關注那我們最近出來的細則行人友善優先區我覺得非常的好所以我收到很多家長打電話來說期待是不是可以從學校周遭先開始來實施"},{"start":837.549,"end":837.569,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":850.578,"end":867.298,"text":"我們在520之後有制定了這個永續提升人行的安全計畫,其中針對學校周遭的這個校路口,我們預計在年底之前改善200個學校來做目標,那目前已經改善了49處。"},{"start":868.76,"end":885.476,"text":"那未來我們會希望在所以還有兩個多月當中盡量 這個危險路口改善的預算計劃非常重要我看到因為我們台北市已經爭取好多但是行人友善區行人優先區行人我們在 它是另外一個計劃對我們在期待這個要拜託院長好不好 499的路口現在已經改善了435處"},{"start":887.017,"end":889.46,"text":"這些相關的數字可以在我們道安總動員的儀表板上面都會呈現出來"},{"start":909.344,"end":931.963,"text":"好那最後一件事情呢也是希望要請院長來幫忙是臺灣的太空自主因為我們兩年前其實我們曾經有成功發射自製的科研火箭那當時賴清德總統那時候還是副總統他臉書有發文說哇這歷史性的一刻那我們現在臺灣的太空自主我們要持續的來發展我們非常的希望我們能夠拼臺灣的"},{"start":954.67,"end":957.365,"text":"好 謝謝吳沛憶委員 謝謝左院長及相關部會所長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:35:32 - 15:51:30","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155489","gazette":{"lineno":196,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（15時35分）謝謝院長，我請行政院卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好。剛剛林倩綺委員有提到台語正名的議題，因為我也是教委會的委員，這個議題在教委會其實經過很多委員充分的討論，以及有相當多的民間團體長期在關心，並非沒有討論，尤其我也是提案人之一，所以我希望教育部還是要聆聽民間的聲音，最重要的是希望我們國家多元族群使用的自然語都能夠平等的被國家看待。","接下來第一個議題我主要要跟院長討論的是，剛剛前面文化部李遠部長也有講過臺劇是我們未來很重要的發展，院長您就說您休息的時候甚至還看了很多的戲劇，所以我想「人選之人」院長您應該看過吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：看過。"],["吳委員沛憶：「人選之人」入圍了亞洲內容大獎，其中陳妍霏也拿下亞洲最佳新人獎；現在正在上映的「小雁與吳愛麗」拿到韓國釜山國際電影節評審團大獎，李遠部長對媒體說：現在正是臺灣電影的最好時機。我想這都是很多人、很多年我們政府給予臺灣的影視音，也就是我們現在講的台流很多的支持所展現的成果。除了影視之外，還有音樂，尤其是臺灣的流行音樂文化，我想這也是臺灣非常非常強、有潛力的產業，除了是一項產業以外，像我個人從小學開始就喜歡聽流行音樂，其實音樂的內涵對於我們的人格養成、對我們的思想、思考、甚至個性，我想都有很大的影響，所以我認為政府絕對有必要、也有責任來支持我們本土音樂的產業。","我們看到在臺灣的音樂發展當中，其中嘻哈音樂正在崛起，臺灣有非常多很有潛力的嘻哈歌手，我舉一個例子，像熊仔（熊信寬），他應該算是我臺大的學弟，他在金曲獎當中，是在各個類型的音樂當中脫穎而出，拿下了金曲獎最佳華語專輯，這是一個很高的殊榮肯定。像賴清德總統就職的時候，也找來了客家歌手王鍾惟、台語歌手KE柯蕭來演出，過去總統府的音樂會曾經也邀請過阿跨面，院長，我想你們應該都認識阿跨面，他就是在臺灣自製的嘻哈選秀節目「大嘻哈時代」第二季脫穎而出的冠軍，所以說用嘻哈這個音樂類型唱出我們臺灣本土的故事，或者是歌手個人思想的發揮，這個已經是展現出非常大的才華。我作為一個大嘻哈時代的粉絲，因為我們在IG上面看到第三季即將要上映了，所以我也希望我們的院長是不是可以跟我一起來努力，我們一起來承諾說政府可以給臺灣的流行音樂產業更強力的支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我真的應該跟委員多多學習，因為我們這個年紀，我們旋律的能力都比不上這個節拍，所以我們要努力去學習，這麼快的變速，而且很多在唱的過程當中，語言的表達能力非常、非常地強，又帶動很多的動感，在我們現在來看，對我們都有點吃力，但是聽起來都很振奮人心，我願意這樣來學習。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，院長，我跟你分享一個故事。前幾天在高雄的打狗祭，滅火器主唱楊大正跟歌迷分享一段對話，他就說因為現在臺灣有些歌手如果要進入中國市場的話，必須要有些政治表態，很多的歌迷可能因此就很傷心，大正就跟歌迷說：如果你很傷心，你可以選擇離開，但你不要出征，臺灣路線不是一條好走的路，所以我不能要求每一個歌手、藝人都要走這條路。","作為歌迷，覺得傷心可以離開；但是作為政府，我想我們不能離開。臺灣路線當然不是一條好走的路，我們政府有責任把這條路鋪得更加地安穩。我非常地希望院長能夠承諾我們能夠給臺灣的音樂產業更多的支持，好不好？"],["李部長遠：我可不可以答一下？"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["李部長遠：因為大嘻哈時代在參加金鐘獎的時候，我當時是評審，我也給它最佳音樂獎及創新獎。大嘻哈時代所帶領的這些新選手給我一個很大的震撼，就是臺灣要發展出自己的音樂，嘻哈是一個非常好的類別，因為它充滿了反叛及諷刺，只有在臺灣這種自由民主之下，他可以唱出一些非常批判的歌詞，而且後來發展出很多語言──台語、客語、原住民語。有些人因為市場，去了中國大陸以後，我覺得他會受限制，因為中國大陸市場不太可能被大家用這麼諷刺的語言批判。所以我在這裡跟委員保證，除了大嘻哈時代這種節目之外，我們會繼續努力推出一些音樂季，甚至於到國際上去辦這種音樂季，把大嘻哈這種東西成為我們臺灣音樂的特色。"],["吳委員沛憶：在大正對歌迷的呼籲當中，其中的關鍵，我想院長也很清楚，就在於市場。如果你很傷心，大正一直說，我們去關心的是我們臺灣音樂的未來在哪裡，就是我們要走進live house、我們要去聽音樂。所以除了臺灣的市場以外，針對我們臺灣本土的歌手，文化部是不是有相關的計畫，帶著他們例如到東南亞的市場來演出表演……"],["李部長遠：有、有。"],["吳委員沛憶：有沒有相關的規劃？"],["李部長遠：其實我們做了研究，像馬來西亞定期會有嘻哈劇的表演，我們會尋找可以讓我們擺進去臺灣歌手的那些國際音樂會，然後我們也會推廣我們自己，試著像打狗祭一樣，我們自己來辦，這個都在我們計畫中，而且很快就會實現。"],["吳委員沛憶：好的，所以文化也是我們新南向政策非常重要的一環，是不是可以請院長大力支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝，跟委員學習，一起來。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝，部長請回。接下來我想請教院長的是，現在農業部及教育部新推出班班有鮮奶的政策，我先說我個人認為上路太匆促，以及沒有提出配套。當初叫做班班有鮮奶，現在實際上以臺北市來說，因為各校要勾選意願，有九成的學校都選擇保久乳，所以目前現況是叫做班班保久乳，不知道院長有沒有相關的了解，我們是不是可以做得更周全一點？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，在提供給地方政府及學校選擇的過程當中，現在有75%都選擇了保久乳，事實上它也可以適度地增加學童在鈣吸收方面的營養，但是我完全贊成委員所說的，在推出的時候，可能思慮上還有所欠缺。我們這一次是訂了3個月的短約，到今年年底，而明年的部分，我已經數度要求農業部及教育部都要從長計議，要設計一個完全可行，不要增加學校負擔，而且地方政府也能夠配合，同時運送過程當中，也能保證它的安全，進到教室裡面去，不增加教職人員及學生太多負擔的狀況底下，我們才可以實施。至於目前已經在契約當中的，我還是可以檢討，我覺得用意可能在於如果學校真的有困難，地方政府也沒有辦法強力地配合的話，是不是我們不要太強制，但是已經在上路的這些學校，我們還是儘量地保持最好的狀況來提供給他們，當中還有沒有什麼可以補救的措施，希望教育部能夠提出，但是這個時間非常有限，因為只有剩下兩個多月的時間，做任何補救可能時間上都很緩不濟急。所以應該是兩個，一個是已經上路的，持續地往更好的方向去走；但是有困難的、有質疑的，有能力、還沒有辦法搭配上來的，我們不要做任何的強制，雖然這樣可能對小朋友的選擇來講會有些失落，但是我們明年從長計議來做處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：為什麼我一定要在總質詢的時候提出來，因為我們絕對是有能力做更周全的考慮，我覺得你們做得好，我們一定給予肯定，但是該檢討的，我們還是要正視問題並檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：確實要檢討。"],["吳委員沛憶：像我過去是市議員，這個院長知道，我長期在關心教育，我也在教委會，像學校辦理營養午餐有很嚴謹的程序，光是標準SOP有16項，然後每一項要簽表格確認的就超過30個，包括驗收、配送、衛生管理等等相關的一定都是經過考慮的。所以我想教育部非常有經驗，過去我們在推動國產履歷食材三章一Q的時候，也發生過要配送到偏鄉學校有一些困難，可是你們也都統統克服了，所以我認為你們絕對有能力把它做到更好，也許有一些部會之間橫向溝通聯繫的問題，或者是你們如果對於現場有一些不夠瞭解，我想立委大家都很願意幫忙，我們一起來把它做得更好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在的要求是明年度新的實施，如果沒有做到像剛剛委員所說的，地方政府、學校透過團繕或者透過更好的機制，能夠讓它保存很安全送到班上去的話，明年我也不會貿然同意實施。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝院長。接下來要討論的也是教育的問題，關於老舊校舍改建，行政院過去是有專案預算在支持，但是今年目前看來是只有一般補助款，過去我在議會都在教文會，所以我們每一年審預算的時候是一間一間學校的預算在審，這院長非常瞭解，以目前臺北市的現況來說，10年以內，臺北市超過50年的老舊校舍就會超過五成，也就是過半，臺北市有一半以上的孩子在10年之內，假設我們現在不開始改建的話，他們會在50年以上的老舊校舍當中學習；如果再不改建，20年內就會有超過八成五以上都是50年以上的老房子。當然，我知道你們有在做一些耐震補強等等的其他措施、作為，但是老舊校舍的改建仍然是刻不容緩，我現在看到教育部已經擬定了一個350億的校舍改建計畫，部長，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：114到118年。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個計畫未來是不是要由行政院核定呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：你們已經在作業當中了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是114年到117年的預算。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，就是明年度。"],["卓院長榮泰：明年開始，我們之前98年到111年也有執行了一千三百多億的預算。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，但是中間像今年度就沒有這個專案。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們趕快把它補上來。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以明年度開始，我們就會有專案，院長，這個部分是行政院會來核定？"],["卓院長榮泰：會的。"],["吳委員沛憶：非常感謝，這件事很重要，我更加擔心的是350億的老舊校舍改建計畫，全國要一起用，這個預算行政院核定了，接下來是不是要送到立法院來審查？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然需要大院通過。"],["吳委員沛憶：我真的擔心，所以我在這裡也要拜託在立法院裡面朝野不同的政黨，也拜託院長，孩子的學習環境真的不要因為政治問題而耽擱，如同我剛剛所說的，如果現在不開始改建，20年以後，臺北市有八成五以上的孩子都要在老舊的校舍裡面來學習，這個數字是多少？這是上千棟的學校，所以我希望行政院可以趕快把預算送到立法院來，朝野大家一起來為學生的安全努力。","最後要提的也是學生的安全，但是它的主責機關、法規是上個會期我們通過的行人安全條例，我看了一下這個細則，9月提出來的細則裡面包含行人友善區、行人優先區，目的就是因為外媒曾經說臺北市是行人地獄，那一張學童走在很危險道路上的照片，就是在臺北市松山區，所以我一直非常關注。最近提出來的細則，關於行人友善優先區，我覺得非常好，所以我收到很多家長打電話來說期待，是不是可以從學校周遭先開始實施？可是細則出來到現在不到一個月，我只看到細則，還沒有看到預算，所以我想要請問一下院長，因為法規的主管機關不是教育部，未來我們的預算會怎麼來處理呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在520之後制定的永續提升人行安全計畫，其中針對學校周遭的路口，我們預計在年底之前，朝著改善200個學校作為目標，目前已經改善了49處，還有兩個多月當中儘量……"],["吳委員沛憶：這個危險路口改善的預算計畫非常重要，因為我們臺北市已經爭取好多了，但是行人友善區、行人優先區，它是另外一個計畫，這個要拜託院長，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：對！我們在799個路口，現在已經改善了435處。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，就是除了路口以外，行人友善優先區……"],["卓院長榮泰：還有路段。"],["吳委員沛憶：還要再拜託院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為我正在盤點中正萬華區，我非常希望臺北市或各縣市，大家都趕快來促成行人優先友善區，讓我們行人有一個比較完整的區塊可以安全來通行，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，這些相關的數字在我們道安總動員的儀表板上面都會呈現出來。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後一件事情也是要請院長來幫忙，是臺灣的太空自主，因為在兩年前其實我們曾經有成功發射自製的科研火箭，當時賴清德總統，那時候還是副總統，他臉書有發文說：「哇！這是歷史性的一刻。」現在臺灣的太空自主，我們要持續來發展，我們非常希望能夠憑臺灣自製入軌火箭，未來有一天臺灣自己的衛星可以自己載，我希望我們臺灣的自主火箭再繼續努力，可不可以拜託院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：「競逐太空，探索海洋」也是總統的政見，我們編列的預算雖然不多，但是我們已開始做這樣的起步。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝院長及部長。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來登記第12號、第13號羅美玲委員及黃捷委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員羅美玲書面質詢：","教育及文化組","一、鑒於如何精進故宮語音導覽、官方網站多種語文服務，特向行政院提出質詢。","根據2023年統計數據顯示，日本、韓國來台旅客為單一國家的前兩名；馬來西亞、新加坡、泰國、菲律賓、越南、印尼等東南亞國家也各有20萬至46萬名旅客來台，尤其自我國推動新南向政策後，東南亞國家旅客來台的人數更是成長快速。","搜尋故宮網站，可看到南院故宮官方網站提供華、英、日、韓、越、泰、緬、印尼、西、德、法等11種語言；然而北院故宮網站上僅提供華、英、日、韓四種語言，惟稍嫌不足。","點進故宮網站查找遊客現場導覽資訊，北院故宮提供之成人多媒體語音導覽系統共有華、台、客、英、日、韓、西、法、德、粵、泰、越、印尼、手語、口述影像等15種版本；然而南院故宮提供之成人語音導覽機僅有華語、臺語、客語、英語、日語、韓語等6種版本。","此外，台灣近年逐步推廣多元國家語言文化發展，但根據故宮網站顯示，北院故宮提供之兒童多媒體導覽只華語、英語服務；南院故宮提供之親子語音導覽機更是只有華語服務，不僅缺乏多國語言服務，甚至連本土語言之多元化亦嫌不足。","故宮作為我國在世界知名的博物館，除保存、推廣、研究歷史文物外，亦肩負推展我國觀光、教育之任務，因此貴院不僅應對我們的鄰居更友善持續精進各種語言服務；亦應強化建置本土語言親子語音導覽。並期盼貴院逐步消弭北院及南院提供之語言服務差別，以利行銷故宮保存之文化收藏。","二、鑒於民眾反映教育部應就「新住民跨國銜轉教育」相關資源加強宣傳，並逐步落實於各個縣市有需要之新住民家庭與學生，特向行政院提出質詢。","近年來國內中小學教育現場出現一群新面孔，他們是隨著父母跨國移動或因各種不同因素在父母的原生國成長且受教育一段時日後，再返臺就學的孩子。其華語文聽說讀寫能力相當有限，甚至是零起點，以至於回到國內入學接受教育時，無法順利銜接課程，甚至被迫降轉學習。此外，由於語言隔閡，除無法與老師或同學有效溝通，造成學習及人際關係上的問題外，亦可能因長時間與父母分離，產生家庭親子關係疏離，以及面對文化差異而有生活適應問題。","教育部在2017年起，與高師大等單位合作，辦理「全國各縣市跨國銜轉學生教育初（進）階師資培訓」，並在2020年宣布建立跨國轉銜機制，也發展「跨國銜轉教育學生華語數位學習平臺」等方式來建立相關跨國學生的轉銜機制。","但本席接獲一些民眾陳情，教育部在推動跨國銜轉教育的宣傳方面，仍值得精進，因此許多新住民子女與家長都不知道該如何申請並獲得相關的資源與協助，致電到許多縣市政府教育局處詢問，獲得的答覆都是局內的新住民業務沒有承接這樣的工作，要他們自行上網尋求幫助。","縱使教育部有針對跨國銜轉教育有開設專門的網頁，在上面也有相關資訊，但有許多新住民家長仍不知道這些資訊。因此，本席要求教育部必須主動跟縣市教育局溝通，甚至是必須來加強宣傳，倘若遇到這些過新住民跨國銜轉的學生，我們可以主動說明有提供這樣的輔助學習資源，讓需要的學生、家長可使用這樣的資源來輔導學習，同時也要與地方教育局處溝通，設置相應的單位或是承辦人可以處理這樣的業務。","此外，同時我們也接獲許多接受教育部辦理的跨國轉銜師資培訓並獲得結業證書的老師們反映，許多學校似乎沒有開始實施相關業務推動，他們也不知道哪邊有相關職缺需求，致使這些受訓完獲得資格的老師們，不知道該如何讓自己學以致用。針對這些師資教育部是否有建立人才庫名單？或是有蒐羅各地有轉銜教育需求的公開資訊平台，讓這些受訓完的老師們能有清楚的資訊能找尋？後續如何精進相關作為？爰請教育部一個月內針對質詢議題向本辦提出回覆。"],["委員黃捷書面質詢：","一、體育暨運動發展部應設於高雄","培育優秀體育選手，有賴於政府妥善擘劃政策，以及與民間企業共同資源，更要社會大眾持續關注與支持。但是2013年1月，體委會遭到降編併入教育部，成為教育部體育署。體育署編制不過人力百餘位，要推動學校體育、全民運動、競技運動、國際體育交流、運動設施、運動產業等龐大業務，顯然不足。","對此，政府已正式宣佈籌備成立「體育暨運動發展部」，為了加強台灣體育發展，未來該部應設於高雄：","第一，台灣現行中央二級機關僅海洋委員會設於高雄市，其他部會皆位於台北市或新北市，南北發展不均。2008年體育署亦曾於南遷於國家訓練中心，顯見高雄適宜作為中央體育主管機關所在地早已備受肯定。","第二，高雄已擁有國家訓練中心和國家運動科學中心，兩中心以共同支援國家培訓隊為目標。國家訓練中心成立較早，乃作為國家隊集體培訓之地。國家運動科學中心則為去年正式掛牌成立的單位，專責研究可如何運用科學技術訓練選手。加上高雄氣候及地理環境適宜戶外訓練，降雨天數較少且氣溫穩定，也有山海河港等天然訓練場域。若體育暨運動發展部能設於高雄，將更能貼近選手的需求。","第三，「高捷橘線O9苓雅運動園區站土地開發案」已經在8月舉行說明會，開發後將成為高雄最大、綜合性的「運動產業聚落」。體育暨運動發展部設於高雄，亦將帶動運動產業的發展。","綜上，體育暨運動發展部設於高雄至少將有區域平衡、貼近選手、促進運動產業等優點，對於體育發展將更有正面助益。","二、國際賽事轉播","台灣近年在國際運動賽事上屢創佳績，讓越來越多人注意到體育競賽，賽事轉播也成為許多人關注的焦點。原則上，運動賽事轉播需顧及運動產業及傳播產業的發展，多數國人也願意理解並給予支持。但文化生活是人民的基本權利，國家必須積極確保人民的文化近用，不會因為身分、年齡、性別、地域、族群、身心障礙等原因產生落差。若全由使用者付費，恐怕無法達成文化均等的目標。","在政府補助取得轉播權業者的前提下，建議在「教育部運動發展基金輔導或獎助提升重大國際賽事觀賞人口作業要點」或其他法規中明定，無論業者以單獨或聯合之方式取得轉播權：","第一，需要有公廣集團參與轉播。","第二，排除不可抗力的因素，例如無轉播訊號的賽事，公廣集團應有足夠時數得以轉播台灣選手出賽之場次。","第三，排除不可抗力的因素，台灣選手出賽之場次，應可在傳統電視頻道或網路上收看。","以本次巴黎奧運為例，取得轉播權之愛爾達體育台，有提供公共電視與華視210小時轉播服務，亦在網路平台上提供八個免費頻道。可將本次轉播經驗列為規範入法，以供未來欲爭取轉播權業者之參考依據，同時也明確加強保障民眾收視權益。"],["主席：接下來我們請登記第14號張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長來了說這邊會盡量補助那第一線人員居然回答 沒有這個事 我沒有聽說到"},{"start":159.349,"end":179.242,"text":"那我不知道為什麼國有財產局針對這個救災、震災的態度跟基隆市政府差這麼多。這邊我必須要先跟院長來做個報告,也請院長說明一下怎麼會變這個樣子。是的委員,我們那天我記得我們是到新豐街。對"},{"start":181.601,"end":182.021,"text":"臨時提案委員．林沛"},{"start":200.169,"end":223.211,"text":"接受委員或是議員的要求去現場看那他們要回來之後當然要統合整個經費的需求跟這個整個工程復原的先入順序再來做一項的處理我想給他們謹慎一點是好但是地方受到風災任何的這個傷害中央政府跟地方一定是通力合作來把它復原的"},{"start":223.511,"end":246.768,"text":"因為我會這樣講的原因是我期待我們行政院的各部門不是只有院長講的話之後下面的人就應奉陽違其實不管是誰執政都是很糟糕的公務人員的狀況那這件事情其實我會希望因為基隆市院長去過基隆知道基隆市很多山坡地可能有80%以上的地"},{"start":247.248,"end":247.408,"text":"國有財產署"},{"start":268.664,"end":294.806,"text":"請委員放心,無論是透過交通部門跟到交通部或是國土署到內政部或是您說的國產署到財政部,他們都會往部裡面去這個綜合整理所有地方報上來的需要一起合作協助的地方,那我們就會按部就班按程序來處理。我會特別請財政部再特別注意一下當天會刊的現場狀況,那事後跟委員做詳細的說明。"},{"start":296.027,"end":325.371,"text":"好,謝謝院長。 院長,那我是為什麼特地請我們鄭部長過來的原因,就是因為說,其實風災所影響的不是只有民宅還有道路而已。對於學校,尤其是說,其實院長上,院長對基隆蠻了解的。基隆多山,然後基隆很多,基本上所有的學校不是靠著山壁,就是在山上。那這一次風災是基隆史上雨量最大的風。"},{"start":325.931,"end":353.005,"text":"余量最大的風災那我們也知道前一陣子的有感地震無感地震其實針對整個地下水文的腦洞是很嚴重的所以基隆這次土石油的發生嚴格講起來並不是針對是說我們沒有清淤清好而是有很多在山坡上他們地質跟地下水文已經改變這也是為什麼院長您10月4號來基隆看災的時候我不在現場"},{"start":354.005,"end":372.167,"text":"因為我知道有哪些地方看起來沒事可是以前已經出過事的地方它附近的所有的區域也有可能會發生災害而且這種災害不是只有大雨來的時候會崩塌像說在那個曹慶那邊院長一定有接到報告"},{"start":372.788,"end":388.655,"text":"朝鷄那邊那個時候風和日麗居然也會發生攤崩就是在那個海科館那邊所以像這樣的案子其實在基隆隨時有可能發生基隆的研盤基隆的地址其實已經跟當年講的不一樣那為什麼把這些事情拿出來呢"},{"start":389.215,"end":415.542,"text":"我這邊有一些報告這邊就是說其實基隆市這次的在學校上面的風災非常嚴重那我知道說院長10月12號一到高雄就直接請國請國教署撥了800萬給受災的這些學校不過基隆我也必須幫基隆請院因為基隆這一次現在目前有估計到學校受災的地方就高達6200萬"},{"start":417.463,"end":432.763,"text":"那我也直接問過市政府他們目前的教育處跟災害補償金他們能夠不用多少他們跟我報告說差不多6200萬只有他們可以負擔到10%到15%其他真的付不出來"},{"start":433.524,"end":460.641,"text":"那也是因為這個原因所以說他們跟我講說委員如果沒有錢的話我們就只好把這些設施暫時性的把它封起來那讓學校保持安全可是學生的秀校審議就會受損害到所以我這邊有兩份資料我想請拿給我們的部長跟我們的院長來請說幫基隆人請益請你們幫幫忙這些事情"},{"start":475.285,"end":490.796,"text":"好的,各位委員報告,當天我不僅到基隆,我到瑞芳的瑞芳高宮。那上個禮拜我到高雄的前鎮國小區。我想我們都是最關心第一個是住家的淹水,再來就是學校的破壞。"},{"start":492.213,"end":514.243,"text":"部長這邊已經有手上有資料,現在他已經有11所基隆市的學校受損,提出了一些需求,如果我們請部長稍微說明一下。謝謝林委員。部長不好意思,我這邊特地提一個啦,你看到我給你的資料,這第58項德和國小,那邊的受災其實相當相當相當相當嚴重。"},{"start":516.738,"end":545.409,"text":"那邊是整塊整個大樓基本上已經被土石流淹沒其實這整個預算裡面最貴的是德和國小這邊這邊不好意思基隆市真的浮不出來所以說這邊尤其是這一塊要請中央單位請部長院長多多幫忙這個是昨天才造出來的實況那這個如果說無法修好的話德和國小我們就只能把它封起來"},{"start":546.687,"end":568.125,"text":"右邊這張圖昨天才照出來的?還是這個樣子?對,沒辦法,因為這怎麼清呢?這4千,上面已經被寫得很清楚,4千多萬,光這一筆,其他的1千多萬,其他的還可以說慢慢大家基隆市我們大家來,也需要中央補助,可是這一筆,所以我剛剛為什麼講說地下水文的破壞,"},{"start":569.306,"end":592.893,"text":"其實對於基隆市是有潛在致命性的傷害但是我們不可能在沒有災害發生之前直接去做監測這筆費用太貴我很清楚因為我之前問過光一個山頭就要兩三億但是至少發生災害了我們至少把他們的受教權把他們學生的權益把它一起幫他們恢復回來好不好"},{"start":596.687,"end":622.993,"text":"其實這是一棟大樓可是其實總共三到四棟大樓不過一棟大樓已經完全被淹過去現在只能靠剩下的三棟大樓來去支撐如果可以的話甚至說我下次辦會館請教育部也來安排一下時間相關可以馬上到基隆重要的毀損嚴重的幾個學校看一看能夠適時的急速的這樣幫大家來完成"},{"start":623.853,"end":639.453,"text":"這個我們要列為必要的優先。謝謝委員關心,我想我們會後,我們下午就請國教署馬上同仁這個負責同仁到前往去這個德國小立集這個來勘查,然後請專家看怎麼樣來協助。"},{"start":641.443,"end":670.881,"text":"很多是地方政府也要出來協助他們很樂意他們很樂意這是地方政府主動跟我講說這筆太大一般來講風災的整個整個remedy整個所謂的急救款拿不起到8到900萬這是6千多萬整個加起來針對我只是針對說教育教育部學校方面以前差不多800萬到900萬請委員你協助你居間把地方政府請出來教育部來看看地方政府還有多少的災損金可以用那其他的部分"},{"start":671.853,"end":698.5,"text":"應急的部分我們會來處理。好,謝謝。再來其實我要問的這個方針比較嚴格講起來這個也不能講不嚴肅只是我必須請教說院長跟我們的那個政部長因為現在那個體育署未來要變成體育發展部、運動發展部現在在我們的那個教育部裡面但是我很好奇就是說"},{"start":699.58,"end":722.428,"text":"到底為什麼要去做這個運動發展部我們的目標到底是什麼因為很實際的我想全國喜歡運動的人都想問這個問題我們這個運動發展部所建立的原因是為了在國際賽事上拿金牌幫我們國人增加榮譽感認同感還是是針對說這個運動產業在臺灣已經有可能發展還是"},{"start":727.47,"end":727.79,"text":"委員你剛剛說的齁"},{"start":750.936,"end":774.869,"text":"都是,沒有還是,都是。第一個我要強調,它不是一個升格的問題,它是一個全新的運動部。它裡面最重要的三項精神,第一個就是推展全民運動,第二個是國際競技,第三個是運動產業。當然還有其他啦,我說最重要這三項。那這三項會變成三支柱子,支撐全新的一個運動部。"},{"start":775.711,"end":799.637,"text":"那這個就很尷尬了因為這三個老實講都很難做得到啊因為老實說如果你是要國際賽事的話你要在國際賽事拿名你的經費你要怎麼樣去依註如果說針對我其實有第一個要問因為我自己本身是基隆SBL的領隊那現在籃球的事情老得紛紛擾擾我想請問一下院長跟部長你們自己有從事運動嗎有打運動嗎"},{"start":803.983,"end":823.386,"text":"任何運動都可以去參與有沒有自己喜歡打的?像我是籃球迷我高中、大學都是打校的隊請問你們是有真的現在我現在昨天還在練球跟委員報告我大概平常現在因為這個考量這個年紀關係我現在只會打網球大概就是桌球桌球大概是"},{"start":825.177,"end":843.046,"text":"這就是我們現在尷尬的地方就是說我們現在講的很多運動有關這個賽事甚至想要把職業化產業化的賽事那全部都是大型運動都不是one on one請問你知道有乒乓球的世界有乒乓球的職業選手嗎?國內有沒有像職業青雙球的賽事?"},{"start":851.364,"end":853.045,"text":"那就是另外的問題請問運動為什麼要提升全民運動"},{"start":881.463,"end":909.006,"text":"這是健康的問題嗎?那就糟糕了,因為運動的本質不是只為了健康啊。運動的本質是要有紀律性、團大精神跟其他的。這就是我說我們現在開始...我問你這是一個全新的運動部。院長,我們不是在辯論,我只是在講說,因為我自己打籃球,而且我自己打籃球打得很深。所以說運動發展部這件事情出來的時候,大家看好的人"},{"start":910.447,"end":910.567,"text":"謝謝林委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:14:39 - 10:30:05","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155488","gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時14分）有請卓院長和教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：卓院長、鄭部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長，先是一個時事題，現在全球都滿關心的就是，我們本來派前副總統、前行政院院長陳建仁去參加這次APEC的活動，但是被拒絕了，我想請問一下院長，未來打算怎麼樣？怎麼樣推出一個合適的人選去參加APEC呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：APEC領袖代表是總統跟總統府在作業，行政院並沒有參與，但是我看到相關的報導，如果屬實，我也覺得非常惋惜。陳前副總統、陳前院長在他副總統跟院長任內對國事的瞭解是相當多的，尤其在院長任內，也帶領國家從政經各方面的進步做了很多努力，非常瞭解國家的需求，對世界的狀況也是非常嫻熟的。"],["林委員沛祥：如果行政院可以推薦人選，請問院長會推薦哪一位？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，這是總統職權，行政院不宜推薦任何人，但總統有任何吩咐，我們就會去執行。"],["林委員沛祥：好。針對卓院長在10月6號特地來到基隆勘災，本席給予高度的肯定，不過我也必須跟卓院長報告一下，您特地來，然後您說要對救災進行補助，我這邊是覺得，其實您講的話似乎很多單位並沒有好好地把它納進去。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["林委員沛祥：譬如說您10月6號來，10月7號在基隆市中山區青龍山的產業道路（在大德國中旁邊）有一個直接的勘災活動，工務處處長跟我的秘書直接說，院長來了，說這邊會儘量補助，當下國有財產署的第一線承辦人員居然回答說沒有這個事、我沒有聽說。我不知道為什麼國有財產署針對救災、賑災的態度跟基隆市政府差這麼多！這邊我必須先跟院長做個報告，也請院長說明一下，怎麼會變這個樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我記得我們那天是到新豐街土石流塌下來的地方看那個社區跟那條路，答應說當天晚上8點會通車，也是緊急地有通車了。那您說的其他地點，很抱歉！我沒有辦法把所有的人帶到所有的地方去，所以那個地點也許是國有財產署或者其他單位接受委員或議員的要求去現場看，他們回來之後當然要統合整個經費的需求跟整個工程復原的先後順序再來做處理，我想他們謹慎一點是好的，但是地方受到任何風災的傷害，中央政府跟地方一定是通力合作來把它復原，這個原則不會錯。"],["林委員沛祥：我會這樣講的原因是我期待行政院各部門，不是院長講了話之後，下面的人就陽奉陰違，其實不管是誰執政，這都是很糟糕的公務人員的狀況。這件事情其實我會希望……因為院長去過基隆，知道基隆市很多山坡地，可能有80%以上的地都是國有財產署管轄，尤其是這些山坡地，很需要中央單位來協助，甚至是補助，來把這次有關受災戶的事情做好。所以我在這邊建請院長回去跟國有財產署的高層下令，說未來我們基隆會需要他們多幫助，而我也會當中間的橋梁，這樣是否可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員放心，無論是透過交通部門到交通部、國土署到內政部，或是您說的國產署到財政部，他們都會往部裡面去綜合整理所有地方報上來的、需要一起合作協助的地方，我們就會按部就班、按程序來處理，我會特別請財政部再特別注意一下當天會勘的現場狀況，之後跟委員做詳細的說明。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝院長。院長，我特別請鄭部長備詢的原因就是，其實風災所影響的不是只有民宅還有道路而已，對於學校，其實院長對基隆蠻了解的，基隆多山，基隆基本上所有的學校不是靠著山壁，就是在山上，這次風災是基隆史上雨量最大的風災，我們也知道前一陣子的有感地震、無感地震，其實針對整個地下水文的擾動是很嚴重的，所以基隆這次土石流的發生，嚴格講起來並不是因為我們沒有清淤清好，而是有很多在山坡上的地質跟地下水文已經改變，這也是為什麼院長您10月4日來基隆勘災的時候，我不在現場，因為我知道有哪些地方看起來沒事，可是以前已經出過事的地方，它附近的所有區域也有可能會發生災害，而且這種災害不是只有大雨來的時候會崩塌，像在潮境那邊，院長一定有接到報告，潮境那邊那個時候風和日麗居然也會發生坍崩，就是在海科館那邊。所以像這樣的案子其實在基隆隨時有可能發生，基隆的岩盤、基隆的地質其實已經跟當年想的不一樣。","為什麼把這些事情拿出來呢？我這邊有一些報告，其實基隆市這次在學校方面，風災非常嚴重，我知道院長10月12日一到高雄，就直接請國教署撥了800萬給受災的這些學校，不過我也必須幫基隆請願，因為基隆這一次，目前有估計到學校受災的地方就高達6,200萬當中我也直接問過市政府他們教育處跟災害補償金能夠撥用多少，他們跟我報告，6,200萬元當中，他們差不多只可以負擔到10%到15%，其他真的付不出來，也是因為這個原因，所以他們跟我講：委員，如果沒有錢的話，我們就只好把這些設施暫時性的封起來，讓學校保持安全，可是學生的受教權益就會損害到。所以我這邊有兩份資料，我想拿給我們的部長跟我們的院長來幫基隆人請命，請你們幫幫忙這件事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，跟委員報告，當天我不僅到基隆，我到瑞芳的瑞芳高工，上個禮拜我到高雄的前鎮國小，我想我們最關心的，第一個是住家的淹水，再來就是學校的破壞，部長這邊手上已經有資料了，現在已經有11所基隆市的學校受損，提出了一些需求，我們請部長稍微說明一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝林委員……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，不好意思，我這邊特地提一個，你看到我給你的資料，在第58項德和國小，那邊的受災其實相當、相當、相當嚴重，那邊是整塊、整個大樓基本上已經被土石流淹沒，其實這整個預算裡面最貴的是德和國小這邊，不好意思，這邊基隆市真的付不出來，尤其是這一塊，要請中央單位、請部長及院長多多幫忙，這個是事實，這是昨天才照出來的實況，如果無法修好的話，德和國小我們就只好把它封起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：右邊這張圖，昨天才照出來的？"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：還是這個樣子？"],["林委員沛祥：對，沒辦法，因為這怎麼清呢？上面已經寫得很清楚，光這一筆就四千多萬，其他的一千多萬，其他的還可以基隆市我們大家慢慢來……也需要中央補助，可是這一筆，所以我剛剛為什麼講地下水文的破壞其實對於基隆市是有潛在致命性的傷害，但是我們不可能在沒有災害發生之前直接去做監測。這筆費用太貴，我很清楚，因為我之前問過，光一個山頭就要兩、三億，但是發生災害了，我們至少把他們的受教權、把學生的權益，一起幫他們恢復回來，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：那麼現在學生的上課還是相當的……"],["林委員沛祥：這是一棟大樓，總共三到四棟大樓，不過一棟大樓已經完全被淹過去，現在只能靠剩下的三棟大樓來支撐，如果可以的話，甚至說我下次辦會勘，請教育部也派人來。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長安排一下時間，相關人員可以馬上到基隆，去毀損嚴重的幾個學校看一看，能夠適時的、急速的幫大家來完成，這個我們要列為必要優先。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，會後我們下午就請國教署負責的同仁前往德和國小立即來勘查，然後請專家看怎麼樣來協助。"],["卓院長榮泰：很多是地方政府也要出來協助。"],["林委員沛祥：他們很樂意，這是地方政府主動跟我講說這筆太大，一般來講，風災的整個remedy──整個所謂的急救款了不起800萬到900萬，這些整個加起來六千多萬，我只是針對教育部學校方面，以前差不多800萬到900萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以請委員也居間協助，把地方政府請出來，讓教育部來看看地方政府還有多少的災損金可以用，那其他的部分、應急的部分我們會來處理。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。","再來，其實我要問的，嚴格講起來這個也不能講不嚴肅，只是我也必須請教院長跟我們的鄭部長，因為體育署未來要變成體育暨運動發展部，那現在還在我們的教育部裡面，但是我很好奇就是說，到底為什麼要去做這個運動發展部？我們的目標到底是什麼？因為很實際的，我想全國喜歡運動的人都想問這個問題，我們這個運動發展部所建立的原因是為了在國際賽事上拿金牌，幫我們國人增加榮譽感、認同感？還是針對運動產業在臺灣已經有可能發展？還是說要讓我們的運動，也就是體育這方面的事情真的深植到我們社會？到底是怎麼樣，總是要有一個比較明確的目標，因為老實講……不然的話，我們現在在民間常聽到說，你升格成為部，人變多了，但是功能沒有變，那這一點的話，我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你剛剛說的都是，沒有還是，都是。第一個我要強調，它不是一個升格的問題，它是一個全新的運動部，它裡面最重要的三項精神，第一個就是推展全民運動，第二個是國際競技，第三個是運動產業，當然還有其他，我是說最重要就這三項，那這三項會變成三支柱子支撐全新的一個運動部。"],["林委員沛祥：那這個就很尷尬了，因為這三個老實講都很難做得到，因為老實說，如果你是要在國際賽事拿名的話，你的經費要怎麼樣去挹注？其實我第一個要問，因為我自己本身是基隆SBL的領隊，那現在籃球的事情搞得紛紛擾擾，我想請問一下院長跟部長，你們自己有從事運動嗎？有打運動嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：任何運動都可以去參與。"],["林委員沛祥：有沒有自己喜歡打的？像我是籃球迷，我高中、大學都打校隊，我昨天還在練球，你們……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，現在因為考量年紀的關係，我現在除了打網球，大概就是桌球，桌球是比較方便的。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我們現在尷尬的地方，就是說我們現在講的很多運動，有關這個賽事，甚至想要把它職業化、產業化的賽事，全部都是大型運動，都不是one on one，請問你知道有乒乓球的職業選手嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國內的？國內有很多好手，對啊！"],["林委員沛祥：國內有沒有像職業乒乓球的賽事？"],["卓院長榮泰：賽事？"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們未來也希望用臺灣的元素來舉辦大型的國際賽事。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我要講的，就是說你們如果真的要成立一個部的話，光運動產業這一塊，你沒有提說……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會，這之一而已。"],["林委員沛祥：對，雖然運動產業是之一，但是有多少職業運動應該在臺灣去深耕發展？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就是未來發展了，報告委員，如果我們沒有全民運動的話，我們支撐不了……"],["林委員沛祥：那就是另外一個問題，請問為什麼要提升全民運動？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個是健康，還有走向國際。"],["林委員沛祥：健康而已嗎？那就糟糕了，因為運動的本質不是只為了健康，運動的本質是為了紀律性、團體精神跟其他的，這就是我說我們現在開始……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這是一個全新的運動部。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我們不是在辯論，我只是在講說，因為我自己打籃球，而且我自己打得很深，所以說運動發展部這件事情出來的時候，大家不容易看好，尤其是從事運動的人，因為這個部出來之後，在這裡面他扮演什麼角色會變得非常重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會全力支持，謝謝。","委員請保重，您的聲音……"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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兩張沙灑我舉這兩個例子,所以我就要請教一下, 院長,為什麼通報數會越來越高,但是確認率是越來越低,這個問題是出在哪裡呢?"},{"start":237.882,"end":253.362,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這個必須要很真實的去檢討跟反應 我一向主張政府所有的資訊應該正確而公開 讓大家能夠來瞭解這個事實提供更多的意見 我們才能做有效的管控 這兩個案件都發生在不久的之前"},{"start":254.784,"end":269.259,"text":"地方政府的教育單位應該要有一個很完整的說明,也應該用這個來告訴所有的人。 其中我舉兩個案子,那我只是要來說明就是說那為什麼我們這一個通報率這麼高,確認率會這麼低,到底是問題是出在哪裡?我不是講個案,我是講這個整體的一個現象。"},{"start":273.61,"end":300.832,"text":"跟委員報告,確實我們就是擔心說校園有一些這個霸凌的行為被遮掩,也就是形成黑素。所以我們鼓勵這一個老師、這一個教育人員,只要有學生之間彼此的一些可能的一些言語或者肢體或者網路或者可能疑似的,全部都一定要通報。沒有通報的話,他事實上是會受到這一個懲處的。"},{"start":301.833,"end":316.657,"text":"那也因為這樣大概就是說只要有這一個儀式他全部大大小小全部可能同學之間的一些玩戲上所以他這個通報數就增加了我們本來就是希望不要"},{"start":317.197,"end":318.358,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":343.229,"end":346.673,"text":"我只是提醒院長跟部長就是說你的2021的確認率到17、2022年到11這個數字降得太快"},{"start":365.113,"end":367.816,"text":"學生輔導法修正法案也送到立法院來,也正在審查。"},{"start":388.516,"end":389.197,"text":"在校園裡面有出現老師慌的問題。"},{"start":407.448,"end":431.937,"text":"有這個背景的年輕人不願意來學校當老師或是說當了老師不願意去處理這些問題像很多的學校裡面現在當導師的都是代理老師當導師我們是希望說他是有經驗的人但是很多都是剛到學校的代理老師他就當導師那你說你要賦予他更多的責任來做這個輔導學生心理輔導等等之類的"},{"start":433.217,"end":436.42,"text":"中文報告確實這一點我們也在這個跟地方在希望能夠透過一個大家的一個溝通協調能夠讓這一個減少這個代理老師為什麼因為"},{"start":456.198,"end":477.197,"text":"地方考慮到許多的因素,包括這個少子女化,這個學生人口,他們預估了這個未來,所以在許多的教師延額,他並沒有真正的把它釋放出來,每年去提供一定名額的。 現在很多學校都是代理老師。 就是說學校大概就保留了15%,甚至有一些縣市甚至"},{"start":478.058,"end":478.078,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":494.432,"end":505.176,"text":"這次按照這個國建署的這個資料,110年的這個資料,國中生吸菸是2.2%,然後到了高中值的話,上升到7.2%,這是止菸。 電子菸的這個使用率提高了,在107年的時候國中生是1.9%,到110年上升到3.9%。"},{"start":512.81,"end":533.537,"text":"然後高中生呢?高中職生呢?從3.4%上升到8.8%這是電子菸所以你看紫菸好像沒什麼增加但是電子菸增加了很多電子菸增加了很多有一個問題就是說它很容易取得電子菸很容易取得那你知道院長這個電子菸我們是不能在網路上販賣的"},{"start":535.197,"end":562.208,"text":"但是呢現在你在網路上要買電子煙相當相當的容易按照這個國建署這個在今年1月份發布的資料是去年底他總共開出了3343萬的罰單那這應該都是這個平台上面的賣家或是個人去罰他們的然後呢集中在三個平台這個Facebook、IG、露天拍賣等等我認為院長要注意一下"},{"start":563.428,"end":586.194,"text":"這個開出了這個三千多萬的罰單裡面﹖應該都是罰個人﹖罰賣家﹖有沒有罰平台﹖有沒有﹖我們過去對平台是沒有辦法﹖因為他沒有落地就沒有辦法納管﹖未來我們在新的打詐司法當中﹖我們要求在台灣的平台﹖你要落地﹖要管理﹖你做廣告就必須真實﹖是可以罰﹖嘉義縣他有罰﹖"},{"start":587.034,"end":602.683,"text":"加一線他就罰那個平台,罰了40萬,所以平台不是不能罰,我們打在就是說要求他們落地嘛,要做處理,我是希望說這個電子營尤其像剛我提到的這三個主要的平台,大部分都集中在這三個平台。"},{"start":603.283,"end":619.617,"text":"你要去注意,就是說不能賣電子煙,啊就賣電子煙,那可是罰不到他們啊。我認為就是說,不管是當然跟教育有關係,但是跟速發部有關係。我認為在電子煙人會取得這方面,我認為要人家控管。"},{"start":620.317,"end":622.998,"text":"按照教育部今年6月有來立法院做一個報告"},{"start":645.742,"end":655.667,"text":"這個藥物濫用問題在111年這個國小、國中、高中、大專合計起來是400位,到了112年呢483位,有增加。那今年呢這個1到4月當時候你們報告是151位,那但是呢到了這個8月應該是將近300位了。"},{"start":666.112,"end":679.923,"text":"那這個呢,藥物濫用的情況呢,我認為是有增加的這個情況。那我去看了一下,國建署他們的一個報告,當然還是以這個三級的毒品為主。那我現在就要提到了,"},{"start":681.314,"end":709.006,"text":"這個在年輕人流行的這個電子煙當中呢有一種叫做喪屍煙油那依托彌子那當然呢這個我們行政院在今年的8月呢已經公告正式公告為三級的毒品了那這個之前也造成很多悲劇啦光是在我們新北市三重7月份有一位員警被這個西池這個喪屍煙大人撞死了一位黃姓員警被撞死了"},{"start":709.568,"end":736.083,"text":"然後呢9月底也是一樣是在土城的一位所長劉所長在執行的時候他也是被撞死了然後那個撞他的人身上也有說出這個喪屍煙油那他們是這個我們把這個電子煙跟這個喪屍煙油合在一起來講就是說現在很多的這個電子煙的成分裡面可能會有像這個喪屍煙油或是其他的毒品"},{"start":736.886,"end":737.246,"text":"這兩個都是違禁的物品"},{"start":766.092,"end":791.779,"text":"對,任何的違紀物品,我們都希望透過能夠大力的取締去發掘它的源頭最重要。 剛剛委員所說的,我們如果網路上很容易買到,那就是我們很大的一個破口。很容易買到了,你隨便去Google電子菸,網路上一堆。那我想警政單位也都知道,那現在我們進一步可以加強,以後不僅是嘉義縣可以去處罰平台,全國依照新的法律,如果我們落地之後,納管之後,"},{"start":792.159,"end":819.446,"text":"我們希望能夠加強取締跟管制我們打造專訪通過之後就要求剛才講的那些數位平台都要落地我們好像是給他到這一個年底的時間我是希望能夠加速因為我們還有19個執法目前正在完成當中完成之後這部大的機器才能夠順暢的來驅動好那這個在最後再問這一個院長這個剛剛好像有委員問過了就可能沒時間看但是有聽過這一個黑白大廚吧"},{"start":821.386,"end":831.85,"text":"黑白大廚裡面有一位晉級的李美英他是韓國國小營養午餐的廚師很不容易做營養午餐的廚師能夠到黑白大廚裡面進入到前15強"},{"start":841.915,"end":860.628,"text":"這在台灣不可能發生,因為在台灣的營養午餐不好吃,你不可能做這個餐廚的廚師能夠晉級到這個黑白大廚裡面去,甚至能夠進入到前面。 那我就比較我們跟韓國好了,韓國呢,他們全部都是由政府來出錢。"},{"start":861.929,"end":881.063,"text":"社廚房公辦公營當然預算也很高每個孩子每餐的預算高達200塊而且學校廚工也比例很高但是在臺灣有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營不一樣的種類很多最重要的是我們的餐費40到70"},{"start":884.63,"end":903.055,"text":"跟韓國比,韓國是由政府來出錢的,我們平均是55塊,所以我們在人事成本跟食材跟韓國就沒辦法比。我舉這個例子是希望說,教育部其實我們都很關心是不是這個營養午餐法能夠提出來。"},{"start":906.252,"end":926.245,"text":"委員部長,我們都應該不定時不預告的去吃吃營養午餐,我們才能親身感受到委員所說的,如何讓他更好。你有空我就帶你一起來吃學校的這個營養午餐。很多委員有提出了,類似這個學校共餐法,還要營養午餐,那我們也希望說,"},{"start":927.365,"end":936.148,"text":"補人、補專業、永續發展,讓孩子在學校能夠吃得安全、然後吃得開心、吃得健康、吃菜地的食材好不好?"},{"start":961.592,"end":962.638,"text":"謝謝李坤城委員的質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:08:07 - 16:24:10","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155487","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（16時8分）謝謝院長，我們請卓院長還有鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、教育部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：院長好、部長好，辛苦了，今天我應該是最後一位質詢。有一些關於教育的問題，然後還有爭取教育的預算，要來請教院長跟部長，我先請教一下院長，在目前的校園中有哪些問題，你認為是比較嚴重的？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所問的應該是校園毒品的年紀往下降、年輕化的問題，我們現在會列為很重要的一個議題。"],["李委員坤城：除了毒品之外還有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：另外可能是一些霸凌事件。"],["李委員坤城：是，霸凌的事件，然後剛才院長有提到就是藥物濫用、毒品的問題，然後我把吸菸人口增加也納進去，當然還有很多問題，我今天就這三個問題來就教院長還有部長。根據菱傳媒在9月份做的民調，在國小階段關於校園安全還有校園霸凌的問題，這個是大家所關心的，排名是第二名，高達六成左右的民眾在關心。但是到了國高中階段，校園安全及校園霸凌是排位在第一名，表示到了國高中階段，大家對於校園霸凌是非常地重視，這是一般民眾的一些問卷看法。","另外，台灣兒童權利公約聯盟在10月初有做了一個調查，它是針對將近3,800位的小六學童所做的一個霸凌調查，其中有36.4%的兒童有被霸凌的經驗，46.1%有霸凌的經驗，有兩成的小六兒童是有被霸凌，但是也有霸凌其他人，就是受害者但同時也是加害者，這是特別針對小六兒童的一個調查。我要問院長跟部長，在教育部有一個校園霸凌通報及確認案件的統計表，我來看的話，通報數是越來越多，但是確認率是越來越低，從30%降到11.4%，我們當然不希望有冤案，但是成案率低也會造成通報意願低，而形成霸凌黑數，這些後來都會變成霸凌的一個悲劇。","我隨便舉幾個例子，這是最近的例子，就是有通報但確認率很低的。在今年1月份，有臺北市某國小的一個學生涉及長期霸凌，但是他後來被學校列為當選模範生，而且還上臺接受表揚，而議員就質疑校方的通報失靈；在8月份，新北市某個國小學生也是用巴掌霸凌同學，但是這個孩子已經要升國中了，家長還沒有收到調查的結果。我洋洋灑灑地舉了這兩個例子，我要請教一下院長，為什麼通報數會越來越高，但確認率是越來越低，這個問題是出在哪裡呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒，這個必須要很真實地去檢討跟反映，我一向主張政府所有的資訊應該正確而公開，讓大家能夠了解這個事實，提供更多的意見，我們才能做有效的管控。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這兩個案件都發生在不久之前，我覺得地方政府的教育單位應該要有一個很完整的說明，也應該用這個來告訴所有的人。"],["李委員坤城：這只是我舉其中的兩個案子，我只是要來說明為什麼通報率這麼高，確認率會這麼低，到底問題是出在哪裡？我不是講個案，我是講整體的現象。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我們就是擔心校園有一些霸凌的行為被遮掩，也就是形成黑數，所以我們鼓勵老師及教育人員，只要學生之間彼此可能有一些言語或者肢體或者網路或者可能疑似的全部都一定要通報，沒有通報的話，他事實上是會受到懲處的，也因為這樣，大概只要有疑似，大大小小全部……"],["李委員坤城：可是那個確認率也太低了吧！"],["鄭部長英耀：可能同學之間的一些玩戲上，所以這個通報數就增加了，我們本來就是希望不要錯過任何真正有加害的情形。"],["李委員坤城：當然我知道，但是我質疑的地方是……"],["鄭部長英耀：也因為這樣，所以當然通報以後，學校會有一定的審查機制，而這一個審查機制就會按照我們所定義的一些霸凌行為裡面做一個比較詳細的審查，因此這個通報數多，而到時候確認的是比較少，我想這也可能是在校園裡面因為我們鼓勵老師不要讓任何一個學生受到……"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，我只是提醒院長及部長，2021年的確認率到17%，2022年到11%，這個數字降得太快，其中不知道有什麼問題出現，這方面我請院長及部長要注意一下。當然我也知道現在有校園霸凌防制準則，在今年4月也有公布，學生輔導法的修正法案也送到立法院來了，也正在審查，但是我要跟院長提醒，在校園裡面，最重要的主體是學生，當然老師也很重要，早上也聽到有委員提到在校園裡面有出現老師荒的問題，正式老師、代理老師都有出現老師荒的問題，如果有背景的年輕人不願意來學校當老師，或是當了老師卻不願意去處理這些問題，像很多的學校裡面，現在當導師的都是代理老師，我們是希望有經驗的人當導師，但是很多都是剛到學校的代理老師，他就當導師了，你說你要賦予他更多的責任來做輔導學生、心理輔導等等之類的，他並不一定有足夠的訓練，這也是會形成校園安全的一些問題，我希望這一點請院長跟部長要稍微注意一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實這一點我們跟地方也希望透過溝通協調，能夠減少代理老師，為什麼？因為地方考慮到許多的因素，包括少子女化學生人口的部分，他們預估了未來的情形，所以許多的教師員額，它並沒有真正地釋放出來，每年去提供一定名額的……"],["李委員坤城：現在很多學校都是代理老師耶！"],["鄭部長英耀：就是說學校大概保留了15%，有一些縣市甚至保留到20%這麼高的一個員額，所以它就沒有真正去開放專任老師的員額，然後變成用代理老師，這個我們正在跟地方政府建議。"],["李委員坤城：你們要跟地方政府、教育局來做個檢討。第二個，吸菸人口增加，這是按照國健署110年的資料，國中生吸菸的比率是2.2%，然後到了高中職的話，上升到7.2%，這是紙菸。電子煙的使用率更是提高了，在107年的時候，國中生是1.9%，到了110年上升到3.9%，然後高中職生從3.4%上升到8.8%，這是電子煙。你看紙菸好像沒什麼增加，但是電子煙增加了很多，電子煙增加了很多有一個問題，就是它很容易取得，電子煙很容易取得，院長，你知道電子煙我們是不能在網路上販賣的喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員坤城：但是現在你在網路上要買電子煙卻是相當相當地容易，按照國健署在今年1月份發布的資料，去年底它總共開出了3,343萬的罰單，這應該都是罰平臺上面的賣家或是個人，然後集中在3個平臺──Facebook、IG、露天拍賣等等，我認為院長要注意一下，開出的這個三千多萬的罰單裡面，應該都是罰個人、罰賣家，有沒有罰平臺？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們過去對平臺是沒有辦法，因為它沒有落地就沒有辦法納管，未來我們在新的打詐四法當中，我們要求在臺灣的平臺要落地、要管理，你做廣告就必須真實。"],["李委員坤城：院長，是可以罰的，嘉義縣有罰，嘉義縣就罰那個平臺罰了40萬，所以平臺不是不能罰，我們打詐就是要求他們落地、要做處理嘛，我是希望電子煙，尤其像剛剛我提到的這三個主要的平臺，大部分都集中在這三個平臺，你要去注意，不能賣電子煙，結果它賣電子煙，可是罰不到他們，當然這跟數發部有關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟數發部有關係。"],["李委員坤城：在電子煙很容易取得這方面，我認為要嚴加控管，除了賣的人之外，平臺也要嚴加控管。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員坤城：不然太容易取得啦！你隨便去Google，真的，你打「電子煙」，在網路上太多地方可以買了，這是一個非常嚴重的問題。我從電子煙再延伸到另外一個問題，就是藥物濫用的問題，教育部今年6月有來立法院做一個報告，這個藥物濫用的問題，在111年國小、國中、高中職、大專合計起來是400位，到了112年是483位，有增加，今年1到4月當時你們的報告是151位，但是到了8月應該是將近300位了，我認為藥物濫用有增加的情況。","我去看了一下國健署的報告，當然還是以三級的毒品為主，我現在就要提到了，在年輕人流行的電子煙當中，有一種叫做依托咪酯（喪屍煙油），當然行政院在今年8月已經正式公告為三級毒品了，這個之前也造成很多悲劇，光是在我們新北市三重，7月份有一位員警被吸食喪屍煙彈的人撞死了，一位黃姓員警被撞死了；9月底也是一樣，土城的一位劉所長在值勤的時候，他也是被撞死了，然後撞他的人身上也有搜出喪屍煙油。我們把電子煙跟喪屍煙油合在一起來講，就是現在很多的電子煙的成分裡面，可能會有像喪屍煙油或是其他的毒品含在裡面，我想請問一下院長，這個你們怎麼去防止它？一個是電子煙的取得越來越容易，另外是毒品的使用，不管是年齡或是新興的毒品越來越多，怎麼把電子煙跟新興毒品合在一起造成青少年的危害做一個處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：這兩個都是違禁的物品。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：任何的違禁物品我們都希望能夠透過大力的取締，去發掘它的源頭最重要，剛剛委員所說的，如果網路上很容易買到，那就是我們很大的一個破口。"],["李委員坤城：太容易買到了，只是隨便去google電子煙，網路上一堆。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，是很大一個破口，我想警政單位也都知道，現在我們進一步可以加強，以後不僅是嘉義縣可以去處罰平臺，全國依照新的法律，如果落地納管之後，我們希望能夠加強取締跟管制。"],["李委員坤城：打詐專法通過之後就要求剛才講的那些數位平臺都要落地嘛！我們好像是給它到年底的時間，我是希望能夠加速。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們還有19個子法，目前在完成當中，完成之後，這部大的機器才能順暢地來驅動。"],["李委員坤城：好，最後再問院長，剛剛好像有委員有問過了，院長可能沒時間看，但是有聽過「黑白大廚」吧？「黑白大廚」裡面有一位晉級的叫做李美英，他是韓國國小的營養午餐廚師，很不容易，做營養午餐的廚師能夠到「黑白大廚」裡面獲得晉級，進入到前15強。然後一般人就講說這在臺灣不可能發生，因為臺灣的營養午餐不好吃，不可能做餐廚的廚師能夠晉級到「黑白大廚」裡面去，甚至能夠進入到前面。","我們就比較我們跟韓國好了，韓國他們全部都是由政府來出錢、設廚房、公辦公營，當然預算也很高，每個孩子每餐的預算高達200塊，而且學校廚工的比例也很高；但是在臺灣，有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營，不一樣的種類很多，最重要的是我們的餐費40到70，沒辦法跟韓國比，韓國是由政府來出錢的，我們平均是55塊，所以我們在人事成本跟食材跟韓國就沒有辦法比。我舉這個例子是希望教育部，其實我們都很關心是不是營養午餐法能夠提出來啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員、部長，我們都應該不定時、不預告的去吃營養午餐，才能親身感受到委員所說的如何讓它更好。"],["李委員坤城：你有空我就帶你一起來吃學校的營養午餐。"],["卓院長榮泰：要不定期、不預告才可以。"],["李委員坤城：對，很多委員有提出了類似學校供餐法還有營養午餐法，我們也希望補人、補專業、永續發展，讓孩子在學校能夠吃得安全，然後吃得開心、吃得健康、吃在地的食材，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個本來就是我們努力的目標，包含在地的……"],["李委員坤城：對，可是你們相關的法令一直沒有提出來啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上……"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦、有啦，在地。"],["鄭部長英耀：在地食材事實上都是在營養午餐裡面。"],["卓院長榮泰：還是需要努力，再跟委員一起討論。"],["李委員坤城：最後，我時間來不及了，關於三重區學校的建設，這邊有一份資料，我送給院長還有部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。","接下來登記第16號王美惠委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員王美惠書面質詢：","案由：本院王委員美惠，就第11屆第二會期院會總質詢個人質詢教育及文化組，特提出質詢。","說明：","1.嘉義市文化創意產業園區現由文化部委由財團法人臺灣生活美學基金會經營管理，成效斐然。在地發展與中央支持均為文化產業發展之重要元素，中央與地方應以共同合作之態度，發展地方特色之原則為主。請文化部檢視相關中央地方合作事項之制度、程序，以使中央地方能充分溝通、合作。","2.嘉義市圖書總館爭取公共建設計畫經費已於113年6月11日獲得國家發展委員會同意，惟相關執行於教育部提報行政院時因計畫細節不完整而遭退回。嘉義市圖書總館計畫是嘉義市重要之文化、教育據點，相關時程已遭延宕，請教育部與行政院盡速完善相關程序，使本案能盡速推動。","3.我國體育賽事於國際賽場屢創佳績，然而我國體育選手之基層培育、訓練制度與運動行業之商業化、職業化等似未能突破窠臼，導致體育環境仍處於奪牌時一時風光，奪牌後乃至未奪牌仍相對困窘。雖體育署已盡力改善相關情況，然近年仍爆發出國家隊女足使用國訓中心爭議事件、女子籃球出場費爭議事件等，凸顯我國體育發展仍有不足。近來行政院已深入討論設置體育部之具體細節，爰請體育署就我國體育相關發展問題做政策性之通盤檢討，俾便作為體育部設置時之參考。","綜上、為使政府政令推動順利、國家發展健全，爰請針對各該問題提出書面報告。"],["主席：報告院會，本日排定質詢之委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長以及相關列席的部會首長列席答詢。現在作以下之決定：下次會議進行交通組之質詢。","報告院會，現在我們繼續處理復議案。","本院民進黨黨團針對第3次會議報告事項第九案及第六十三案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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張雅琳"},{"start":194.042,"end":197.243,"text":"我想請教院長你認不認同我講的這句話沒有金牌教練就沒有金牌選手有金牌教練一定會出高徒"},{"start":221.928,"end":245.795,"text":"對 但是有時候沒有狀元老師也會有狀元學生是沒有錯啦但是我想就是教練才是一個非常重要支持選手的一個力量整個過程其實都是非常重要我想院長自己過去也曾經是足球選手是教練的陪伴跟支持跟訓練都是非常重要的可是你知道嗎我們的曾志強教練他現在回到基層去"},{"start":246.835,"end":254.569,"text":"她現在薪水只變成六萬塊這是我知道之前因為其實我們有開一個公聽會來講這件事情那我也知道教育部其實有在討論"},{"start":256.38,"end":282.125,"text":"那我先想順便提醒一件事情就是說除了我們這些如何我們如何我們這薪資要如何去做調整來吸引更多好的選手或是教練願意留在基層幫我們培養更多優秀的運動員畢竟我們講的是全民運動嘛對不對他要有全民運動才會有競技運動嘛那可是院長你幫我看一下我紅色框出來的這三個數字哪一個是高級教練哪一個是中級教練哪一個是初級教練的薪資呢"},{"start":285.669,"end":286.891,"text":"這三個薪資總額跟家籍都一模一樣"},{"start":297.227,"end":322.922,"text":"我們的高級、中級跟初級的教練加給薪資都一模一樣的時候,我覺得他就有一個很大的問題,我們如何,這個教練他要前進的動力就會下降嗎?對不對?因為我不管怎麼樣反而等著都是年資的累積,我薪資才會成長嗎?所以我也想了解說,我們其實我知道也都有在討論,那現在目前的一個進度跟規劃是什麼呢?會去做調整嗎?在這個部分。"},{"start":325.255,"end":351.965,"text":"我跟委員報告剛剛委員提到這麼多的問題我比較一個理想性的想法我們之所以要把一個全新的運動部出來我就希望說他能夠納進更多的現役選手跟教練甚至裁判我們首先把他請他擔任我們的諮詢小組的委員希望能夠用更貼近現在整個運動界大家正在執行的一些目前的策略跟目前的政策"},{"start":352.725,"end":352.885,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":363.131,"end":390.861,"text":"瞭解,我也知道其實大家就是院長跟所有的部會跟其實都有相非常積極的在處理這些相關的細節那我今天提出來這幾個問題也希望在內部一併的來討論一併的來思考那再來我想給院長看一個我覺得蠻重要的事情前面也有委員提到體育賽事的一個運動統戰但是這個運動統戰並不是只有在賽事等級已經是在國中小階段了他像這個"},{"start":392.241,"end":418.191,"text":"我講一下這個是臺灣籍的教練他就自己說我們今天來參加這個全國性各地可以跟各地的隊伍來做一些交流他其實是第二次來參加他看見了大陸日新月異的變化但不變的是大陸的熱情雖然是陌生人但感覺上我們就在球場切磋就像朋友一樣甚至我在這個球場還有看到他貼了那個兩岸一家親的"},{"start":420.672,"end":421.813,"text":"各位委員,確實我們這一個"},{"start":440.919,"end":442.52,"text":"我發現教練他們會彼此通知彼此因為"},{"start":469.474,"end":488.861,"text":"教練說:「費用全免,語言相通,行政又很有,他們又會處理所有行政事務,對教練來說是一個好康到最棒。」其實有家長跟我反應,他說其實我也不希望我小孩去,可是我也不知道我可以去哪裡,我還有什麼選擇。為了小孩好,教練這麼說,他也就配合了。"},{"start":490.199,"end":508.778,"text":"那其實我們現在有一個兩岸體育交流規範可是這是教育部下面體育署的一個規範而是你看它上面有寫說不得組隊前往大陸地區參加其指稱之全國性體育運動如果有競速告知本署依法處理那我想我們現在我是找不到任何可以處理的方法"},{"start":510.08,"end":522.156,"text":"我想可能這一塊我們必須要盡快的補強,因為如果他還是拿我們一些相關的補助經費的話,平常訓練有拿一些補助經費的話,我們必須應該要做一些,盡快的做一些事情。"},{"start":523.666,"end":549.365,"text":"那這個呢,這個就是我剛剛講的,其實他們就覺得這個,因為中國這個全包的這個服務對他們來說非常非常方便。那我們其實就有跟他們討論說,那新南向計畫你們的想法是什麼?那教練就有講,其實新南向計畫並不是所有的品項在新南向國家都是好的,這是第一個。那如果像是足球啦,他們當然可以去到泰國啊,"},{"start":550.126,"end":550.646,"text":"張雅琳 張雅琳"},{"start":572.338,"end":595.615,"text":"雖然我知道我們有非常多的學校對我來這個申請可是我覺得我們也必須要來考慮就是說除了我們剛剛講制定相關的法則我們也應該要研議喔新南下國家是可以有不同的補助額度這樣才能夠增加他們往南邊走嘛去我們想要他們去的地方嘛那同時呢第三個就是說我們是不是可以建立一個國際交流的平台公開一地訓練的相關聯繫資訊"},{"start":598.157,"end":615.444,"text":"因為其實有很多家長告訴我啦,其實為了他們也沒有希望政府來補他錢,可是你至少讓我知道我可以去哪裡,對,那我們就可以去選擇那些方向去。像我也知道台灣有非常多的日本足球隊,他們這幾年都去了日本,那這部分是不是可以,我們可以趕快來補強,趕快來處理呢,院長?"},{"start":617.842,"end":646.692,"text":"是的,透過中性的活動來達到特定目的的文化的入侵,這是一直存在的。政府的責任在於告訴國人必須要有這樣的戒心,同時給國人知道我們有提供一些比較正確正當的管道,可以讓大家去從事必要的活動。我想這個將來我們在這個地點的選擇,合作的對象,甚至經費的補助各方面,我們朝這個方向來努力。"},{"start":647.352,"end":663.343,"text":"對,尤其我是希望說這個就是因為我們現在的這個兩岸運動交流體育交流規範條規範其實相對來說是沒有任何的處置啦這個可能也需要盡快來思考如何來補強那再來就是剛剛院長其實有講到我們如何讓我們的"},{"start":663.823,"end":680.132,"text":"民眾有意識有意識這件事情非常重要因為昨天我們的蔡英文總統也去捷克在這個論壇裡面她特別強調了民主是臺灣不可妥協的一部分我們要透過全社會的努力與志同道合的盟友進行安全的合作"},{"start":681.653,"end":707.432,"text":"我們還是臺灣的公民社會都會自發性的來捍衛臺灣來勢不易的民主所以我也就認為我們今天我們的很多的教練他可能做這個選擇第一個部分當然費用的確是一個部分行政也的確是一個部分但是是不是讓我們的小孩子可以有一個更確立的一個本土史讓他建立一個所謂對威權識別的一個敏感度"},{"start":708.252,"end":724.94,"text":"對他來說他去的時候也還可以就感覺到這個好像有點問題所以我們現在其實是有做一些教育部其實也做了一些走讀活動對老師做的一個成果也不錯但是我只是在想我們都要等老師有意識了再來做這個"},{"start":729.305,"end":747.224,"text":"嚴習、再回去設計教案、再讓小孩子來上課,我覺得這個速度有點慢。 面對我們現在統戰這麼無往不路的狀態之下,我覺得我們速度要加快。 上個會期,行政院也提出了不議議者條例。"},{"start":748.726,"end":762.342,"text":"主要的就是活化這件事情。 那我就在想啊,我們是不是呢,因為他遍及北中南嘛,我們是不是可以編列相關的校外教學的預算,帶著孩子去到這些地方聽他們說故事,"},{"start":762.922,"end":781.051,"text":"看這邊發生了什麼事情因為我剛好這次去聯合國的這個世導團的時候我也去拜訪了紐約轉型正義中心的總部他們跟我說帶著孩子去看這邊發生什麼事聽到那邊人說的話那個效果是最好的所以我們是不是可以往這個方向來努力呢"},{"start":782.847,"end":808.858,"text":"跟委員報告確實這一個方向是我們現在在努力的而且我們也確實也鼓勵各個學校中小學在戶外的一個教學裡邊能夠把相關的像人權博物館或者這些不義遺址的這些都納入一個學習的一個場域我想本土教育的一個本土台灣主體性的一些教育我想這是我們"},{"start":810.905,"end":836.602,"text":"教育重點,在人才培育裡面,我想我們會很努力。因為其實台灣這些遍佈各地的這一些不易移植,其實相對當地也都有一些文化團體,在地的團體在做相關的文史,那我們是不是可以就是說補助一些,有一些相關的補助,可以讓學校去申請,或是讓這些團體去申請,然後讓學校都可以往這個地方免費的去,就像故宮有一些計畫,就是我們可以讓大家來。"},{"start":837.483,"end":840.466,"text":"謝謝委員,確實我們事實上是有編這個在國教署相關的一些還有教育部相關的一些經會裡面是有這樣的一個經會在補助的。"},{"start":856.154,"end":879.834,"text":"現在比較是補助給老師、學生比較少就民間的一些NGO團體他對一些相關的地方文史文化我們也會鼓勵他來怎麼樣再跟這個學校跟地方來補助包括地方他怎麼樣去做許多的這個在地的文史的一個工作的發展我想我們這個部分會跟這個文化部來做更密切的一些合作"},{"start":880.421,"end":895.251,"text":"好,因為我還是希望就是說,因為其實在台北好了,他們都會有就是說你可以免費去兒童心得園一次,每個學校都有一次,或是有一些像故宮等等的,那其實這就會讓老師在校外教學要安排的時候,他就會先排那個地點。"},{"start":896.472,"end":925.234,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分我們是不是可以再約個時間來詳細的討論如何吸引大家那我就想請教院長這是你上班的地方嘛對不對是那這也是一個不義遺址嘛對不對今年掛牌上掛牌成為一個不義遺址嘛那我就想說因為其實我們現在禮拜五早上都有一個導覽但是也有民眾跟我反映在這個導覽過程之中並沒有講到雖然講稿好像是有寫但是他在導覽的過程之中是沒有講到這是一個不義遺址"},{"start":926.653,"end":926.813,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員的資訊"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:52:05 - 16:07:54","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155486","gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（15時52分）不好意思，主席，我可以先試一下投影筆嗎？因為上次質詢的時候對不準，一直跳不出來，謝謝。我們有請卓院長跟教育部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、教育部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：院長好、部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：我想在巴黎奧運的時候，我們爭金奪銀，這次臺灣的選手表現非常優異，讓我們所有臺灣的同胞、臺灣的人民都感覺到非常振奮，我們也看到行政院後來也啟動了一系列的計畫，同時因為在這次的計畫裡面有討論到一些黃金計畫是不是要再怎麼樣優化，所以我這邊有一些想要提醒的部分，第一個部分，我們目前的補助，雖然是得到金牌，第一級、最高級是1,500萬，但是其實我們也非常清楚地知道網球或是高爾夫球，它的費用相對是比較高的，其實每個項目所需要的經費，即便是第一級、頂級選手來看都會有一些落差，所以我們正在思考，是不是可以規劃對不同項目有不同級別的額度，這樣才能夠實際的去支持到最頂尖的選手，因為頂尖的選手就是提升臺灣整體運動實力的領頭羊，不曉得院長的看法如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["鄭部長英耀：非常謝謝委員關心，確實在不同的運動項目所要投注的時間跟場域，因為這個項目本身許多經費的投入確實是有差別的。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["鄭部長英耀：在這個部分，我們怎麼樣來適度地考量各個不同的運動項目，我想這是我們要來努力的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為其實這個訓練項目，像參賽數好了，像網球一年有三十幾場比賽，可能桌球、羽球一年只有十幾、二十場，所以這個場次就對他的訓練費、出國參賽費用差異非常大，所以非常感謝部長願意一起來調整。下一部分，其實也有選手跟我們反映，就算是他拿到了1,500萬，舉例來說，他如果覺得自己是頂尖選手，他需要的陪練員可能是一個月4.5萬，可是因為我們現在這個經費是每次都還要去申請，當他申請的時候，可能就會核給他2萬6,000塊，然後跟他說可以找本土的選手、本土的陪練員、大學畢業生或是碩士畢業生等等的，可是對一個頂尖的選手，我們可以來想想看，這樣子怎麼有辦法配合他來練習呢？所以我在想我們大部分的選手，其實他就是一個人，他沒有像國外有這麼完整的一個經紀人的制度，變成是說他一邊要忙於訓練、忙於比賽，還要處理這些行政事務，對於選手來說，我覺得實在是太曲折了，是不是我們可以來檢討這個流程，讓他不要這麼奔波呢？我們可不可以來檢討這個流程？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想確實所有的程序都是希望能夠快速、能夠支持優秀選手有一個更好的訓練環境跟培訓環境，我們會來做內部的流程檢討。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我想問一下，我想請教院長，你認不認同我講的這句話，沒有金牌教練就沒有金牌選手？"],["卓院長榮泰：有金牌教練一定會出高徒啦！"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是有時候沒有狀元老師也會有狀元學生。"],["張委員雅琳：是沒有錯啦，但是我想教練是一個非常重要支持選手的力量，整個過程其實都是非常重要，我想院長自己過去也曾經是足球選手嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員雅琳：教練的陪伴跟支持跟訓練都是非常重要的，可是你知道嗎？我們的曾自強教練他現在回到基層去，他現在薪水變成6萬塊，之前其實我們有開一個公聽會來講這件事情，我也知道教育部有在討論，我這邊想要再順便提醒一件事情，就是說除了我們薪資要如何去調整來吸引更多好的選手或是教練願意留在基層，幫我們培養更多優秀的運動員，畢竟我們講的是全民運動嘛！對不對？要有全民運動才會有競技運動嘛！可是院長你幫我看一下，我紅色框出來的這三個數字，哪一個是高級教練，哪一個是中級教練，哪一個是初級教練的薪資呢？沒關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個考驗眼力。"],["張委員雅琳：考驗眼力，下次我放大一點，我跟院長講，其實這三個薪資總額跟加給都一模一樣，我們的高級、中級跟初級的教練加給薪資都一模一樣的時候，我覺得它就有一個很大的問題，這個教練他要前進的動力就會下降嘛！對不對？因為我不管怎麼樣，反正等著都是年資的累積，我薪資才會成長嘛！所以我也想要了解說，其實我知道也都有在討論，現在目前的一個進度跟規劃是什麼呢？會去做調整嗎？在這個部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到這麼多的問題，我比較一個理想性的想法。"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們之所以要一個全新的運動部出來，我就希望說它能夠納進更多的現役選手跟教練，甚至裁判，我們首先請他擔任我們諮詢小組的委員，希望能夠用更貼近現在整個運動界大家正在執行的一些目前的策略跟目前的政策，更貼近選手跟教練之所需要，我們希望未來新的運動部能夠朝向這樣去走，那才是一個所謂真正全新的運動部。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，我也知道院長跟所有的部會其實都有非常積極地在處理這些相關的細節，我今天提出來這幾個問題，也希望內部……"],["卓院長榮泰：都非常重要。"],["張委員雅琳：一併地來討論、一併地來思考。那再來我想給院長看一個我覺得滿重要的事情，前面也有委員提到體育賽事的運動統戰，但是這個運動統戰並不是只有在賽事等級，已經是在國中小階段了，像上面這個我講一下，這個是臺灣籍的教練，他就自己說我們今天來參加這個全國性，可以跟各地的隊伍來做一些交流，他其實是第二次來參加了，他看見了大陸日新月異的變化，但不變的是大陸的熱情，雖然是陌生人，但感覺上我們在球場切磋就像朋友一樣，甚至我在這個球場還有看到他貼了兩岸一家親的布條。不是只有足球而已，它已經到了棒球、圍棋非常多項的運動，我不曉得說我們有沒有相關的掌握，在這個已經到小學階段的統戰，我們目前有掌握嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我們在不同的時段裡面偶爾就會聽到有許多兩岸的運動交流會有一些……我們不期待……"],["張委員雅琳：因為時間比較有限，我想提醒一下，因為我想可能大家並沒有注意到這一端的部分，那如果有也非常好，那如果沒有的話，我們現在必須開始來關注這一面，因為我發現教練他們會彼此通知彼此，因為費用全免嘛！語言相通，他們又會處理所有行政事務，對教練來說是好康逗相報。其實有家長跟我反映說，其實他也不希望小孩去，可是他也不知道可以去哪裡、還有什麼選擇，為了小孩好，教練這麼說，他也就配合了。","其實我們現在有一個兩岸體育交流處理規範，這是教育部體育署的規範，可是你看上面有寫，不得組隊前往大陸地區參加其指稱之「全國性」體育活動，如果有，儘速告知本署依法處理。現在我是找不到任何可以處理的方法，可能這一塊，我們必須要儘快的補強，因為如果他平常訓練還是有拿我們一些相關的補助經費的話，我們應該必須要儘快做一些事情。","這個就是我剛剛講的，他們就覺得因為中國全包的服務對他們來說非常、非常方便，我們其實也有跟他們討論對新南向計畫的想法是什麼，教練就有講新南向計畫並不是所有品項在新南向國家都是好的，這是第一個。如果像是足球，他們當然可以去泰國，或是羽毛球也可以去印尼、馬來西亞等很多國家沒有錯，可是如果今天當他是田徑、游泳項目，他要去比較好的國家就是紐澳，可是紐澳的話，你現在是齊頭式的補助都是50萬，對他們來說，那個吸引力就大減，所以如果是田徑、游泳項目的話，今天中國跟我這樣講，我就會選擇直接就過去了。雖然我知道我們有非常多的學校都有來申請，可是我覺得我們也必須要考慮除了剛剛講制定相關的罰則，也應該要研議新南向國家可以有不同的補助額度，這樣才能夠增加他們往南邊走，去我們想要他們去的地方。同時第三個就是，我們是不是可以建立一個國際交流的平臺，公開移地訓練相關聯繫資訊，因為其實有很多家長告訴我，未來他們也沒有希望政府補助他錢，可是至少讓他知道可以去哪裡，那他們就可以去選擇那些方向去。像我也知道臺灣有非常多足球隊，他們這幾年都去了日本，這部分是不是可以趕快來補強、趕快來處理呢？院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，透過中性的活動來達到特定目的的文化入侵，這是一直存在的。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：政府的責任在於告訴國人必須要有這樣的戒心，同時給國人知道，我們有提供一些比較正確、正當的管道，可以讓大家去從事必要的活動，我想將來在地點的選擇、合作的對象，甚至經費的補助等各方面，我們朝這個方向來努力。"],["張委員雅琳：對，尤其我是希望因為現在的兩岸體育交流處理規範其實相對來說是沒有任何的處置，這個可能也需要儘快思考如何補強。再來就是剛剛院長其實也有講到，如何讓我們的民眾有意識，有意識這件事情非常重要，因為昨天蔡英文總統也去捷克，在這個論壇裡面，他特別強調民主是臺灣不可妥協的一部分，我們要透過全社會的努力與志同道合的盟友進行安全的合作，臺灣的公民社會都會自發性的來捍衛臺灣來之不易的民主。","所以我也就認為今天我們很多教練，他可能做了這個選擇，第一個，當然費用的確是一個部分，行政也的確是一個部分，但是，是不是讓我們的小孩子可以有一個更確立的本土史，讓他建立所謂對威權識別的敏感度，對他來說，他去的時候還可以去感覺到這個好像有點問題，所以現在教育部其實也做了一些走讀活動，對老師做的，成果也不錯，但是我只是在想，我們都要等老師有意識了再來做研習，再回去設計教案，再讓小孩子來上課，我覺得這個速度有點慢，面對我們現在統戰這麼無孔不入的狀態之下，我覺得我們速度要加快。因為上個會期行政院也提出了一個不義遺址條例，那不義遺址最重要就是活化這件事情，那我就在想因為它遍及北、中、南，我們是不是可以編列相關校外教學的預算，帶著孩子到這些地方聽他們說故事，看這邊發生了什麼事情，因為我剛好這次去聯合國視導團的時候，我也去拜訪了在紐約的轉型正義中心總部，他們跟我說，帶著孩子去看這邊發生什麼事、聽到這邊的人說的話，那個效果是最好的，所以我們是不是可以往這個方向來努力呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實這個方向是我們現在在努力的，而且我們確實也鼓勵各個中小學學校，在戶外教學裡面能夠把相關的像是人權博物館或是這些不義遺址都納入學習的場域，我想本土教育、臺灣主體性的教育，這是我們的教育重點，在人才培育方面，我們會來努力。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為其實臺灣這些遍布各地的不義遺址，在當地也都有一些文化團體、在地團體在做相關的文史，我們是不是可以有一些相關補助可以讓學校去申請，或是讓這些團體去申請，然後讓學校都可以免費去這些地方？就像故宮有一些計畫就是可以讓大家來，我們可不可以有這樣的計畫鼓勵大家來？我覺得還是要有一個推動的動力、吸引力。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，確實我們國教署還有教育部所編列的一些相關經費是有這樣的經費在補助的。"],["張委員雅琳：現在比較是補助給老師，學生的部分比較少。"],["鄭部長英耀：就民間的一些NGO團體，它對於相關的地方文史、文化，我們也會鼓勵它怎麼樣再來補助學校跟地方，包括地方怎麼樣去做許多在地的文史工作發展，我想這個部分我們會跟文化部來做更密切的合作。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為我還是希望就是，比如在臺北，每個學校都可以免費去兒童新樂園一次，或是像故宮也有這些相關計畫等等，其實這就會讓老師在安排校外教學的時候先安排那個地點，所以我覺得這個部分我們是不是可以再約個時間來詳細地討論如何吸引大家。","我想請教院長，這是你上班的地方嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員雅琳：這也是一個不義遺址，對不對？今年掛牌成為一個不義遺址，我就想說，因為其實現在禮拜五早上都有導覽，但是也有民眾跟我反映在這個導覽過程之中並沒有講到，雖然講稿好像是有寫，但是他在導覽的過程中沒有講到這是一個不義遺址，這個部分我們是不是可以來好好地要求？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們……"],["張委員雅琳：同時是不是可以邀集這附近的中小學先來參觀行政院，變成一個不義遺址的教案？"],["卓院長榮泰：常常有很多人來參觀，但怎麼讓來參觀的小朋友或學生知道這個代表的意義，適合的部分我們來加強，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第15號李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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覺得院長的回應有一點帶呼輕視,還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解真正原住民的困境和訴求。這句話不僅是對高金素美委員個人的冒犯,它更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望,包括本席。"},{"start":118.857,"end":145.129,"text":"原住民的問題從來都不是只是單純的環保問題,它涉及土地、文化認同還有基本生存權。 原住民族基本法也有規定,政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化生活方式,而高金委員所反映的不是只有他自己的意見,而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁法政策的憂心。"},{"start":146.73,"end":170.372,"text":"這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號所以院長您這番言論暴露出我們政治我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法的思維您只碰到只要凡是有不同的聲音就視為是對立這種敵我思維不僅讓政策推不動還限縮了公共討論的空間"},{"start":172.442,"end":198.546,"text":"這樣子的做法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋樑的一個角色原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題還加深了一些傷口"},{"start":203.271,"end":221.883,"text":"高經委員的質詢不是只有他個人的呼籲,而且還是代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對,那麼轉型正義還能夠落實嗎?本席在這邊。"},{"start":223.206,"end":247.141,"text":"要求院長向高金委員正式的公開道歉。 這不僅是對他個人的尊重,那更是對所有原住民族的尊重。 您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族甚至其他族群的訴求。 院長,請您正視這些訴求,"},{"start":249.07,"end":249.51,"text":"我可以公開說明"},{"start":268.427,"end":279.11,"text":"我講了這句話之後,後面那句話是什麼?我跟高軍委員說,你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務,你的全國人民不只有原住民。"},{"start":280.015,"end":302.726,"text":"請要聽懂這一句話。 是,院長,但是您可能忘了,高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲,那麼為全國人民服務,甚至為人民服務,應該是大家一起來做的事情,也很重要的是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。我也必須把人民擺在第一啊,但我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看。"},{"start":308.288,"end":322.9,"text":"是不是我必須這樣來做每個委員都有他的選區也都有他的支持者他的主權他可以從他的利益出發但必須衡量到全國的橫平性如果一個領域一個族群"},{"start":324.896,"end":344.956,"text":"市長,許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列,我想這是行政院很重要的專業。那當然我們知道您在這行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編組"},{"start":347.518,"end":365.535,"text":"你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足,這點我更是反對,但是這個是編列的專業。我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是,您看待這件事情的心態,還有原住民堅持的核心價值。"},{"start":366.596,"end":373.721,"text":"只要請委員看一下憲法70條,立法院對行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。"},{"start":397.276,"end":426.102,"text":"謝謝院長,謝謝。請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。我已經公開說明了。好,那接下來我們請文化部李部長。麻煩請文化部長備選。好,部長謝謝您。好,院長、部長,接下來本席想請問一下,部長你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館,您所了解的人權博物館。"},{"start":427.731,"end":455.393,"text":"我所了解的人權博物館,原來它是一個在景美的一個看守所,那後來把它改建成人權園區,然後保留了所有當時的狀態,然後裡面也做了...謝謝部長,那您有去看過嗎?您有去過人權博物館嗎?我不但有去,我還帶學生去做田野調查,然後請他們...好的,謝謝,那你應該知道本席接下來要講的東西,那麼人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要一個機構,您認同嗎?"},{"start":458.055,"end":476.564,"text":"所以在人權博物館,理應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題。但是我們常看到的,如果您也常去,大部分的策展,本席所看到的,都是集中在白色恐怖時期,對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。"},{"start":477.584,"end":504.718,"text":"根據國家人權博物館的組織法博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展所以我們來看一下這個數據這是人權博物館的數據在策展方面其實有點相當失衡33個從你們開館到現在的展覽有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題佔比已經大約快70%了那個時期的壓迫和不公"},{"start":506.298,"end":533.433,"text":"當然是重要的,但是在日治時期對原住民族、敏克族群殖民士的壓迫,那麼以日本人對原住民還有敏克的壓迫為例,五年李凡計劃所造成的歷史傷痛,也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中,79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關,佔比已經差不多70%了。"},{"start":534.694,"end":549.857,"text":"所以在這個展示當中是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候長期存在了偏見難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢另外在不義遺址"},{"start":550.518,"end":578.273,"text":"的定義上也犯了一樣的錯誤考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗甚至現在可能都也有我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤這樣子的展示不僅是會喪失歷史的全面性而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史"},{"start":579.229,"end":594.879,"text":"我期待這樣一個展示在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討將不同的時期不同的階段並用不同的視角多重的視角來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史"},{"start":596.305,"end":604.11,"text":"我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤。所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應,我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作,讓轉型正義的目的,是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解。"},{"start":622.318,"end":634.513,"text":"因為許多研究顯示,現階段,許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高。 民眾不信任促轉會,民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助。"},{"start":635.612,"end":656.063,"text":"民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭,這是一個研究報告,所以可不可以簡單回應,未來在展示的內容上,可不可以多講?我可以,我很想回答,因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦了一個人權電影展,人權電影展裡面就是講族群"},{"start":659.965,"end":677.234,"text":"我希望我們人權博物館跳脫您剛才講的那個問題,可以盡到所有的人權。但是白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群。白色恐怖被壓迫的是各種族群。所以接下來我們來探討一個問題,因為院長就沒機會講話了。但是我們來探討一個問題,您每次講話都讓我非常的感動。"},{"start":682.116,"end":699.064,"text":"但是我所看到您的作為都讓我非常的疑問。來,5月22號在我們的教育文化委員會當時您剛上任。中正紀念壇轉型有許多委員提出了問題,所以您說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。"},{"start":700.144,"end":718.601,"text":"當時有人問到你有關於一對的在堂體跟戶外。 您說到一對不應該是政權轉換的工具。 您當時也在徵求各界來對未來的想像有所討論。 但是讓我很難理解的是一個月後您的態度突然轉變。 突然間"},{"start":722.179,"end":742.711,"text":"一、對就被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。那我不知道在這個過程當中包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論。所以您當時講的話其實讓我非常感動,非常的人性化。但是您做的,我們看到的這個回應,實時的作為是讓我們非常疑問。"},{"start":745.151,"end":771.559,"text":"中正紀念堂的轉席一對一出堂體有全民共識嗎?為什麼您的態度在這麼短時間就轉變了?這樣的轉變有基於充分的討論嗎?還是有其他政治性的考量?所以這個部分本席提醒您在您剛才講人權博物館的未來的同時希望您能夠言行合一最後我們還是探討一個文化政策的議題"},{"start":773.766,"end":801.233,"text":"臺灣臺語政策我想您應該知道這個政策一推出引發了不小反彈在上週的內政委員會您知道多少委員針對這個定義還有這個議題提出了很多看法好幾位委員質疑臺灣臺語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義這個名詞有沒有侵犯其他語言的地位不知道您有沒有注意到上週是次長"},{"start":803.332,"end":819.253,"text":"來這個會議當中,次長回應說,臺灣臺語是國家語言之一,地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬族語、臺灣手語等一樣,並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思,那麼很加諱次長,但問題是,"},{"start":821.133,"end":844.149,"text":"從其他族群的角度來看,這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎?定定國家語言政策的初衷,如您所講的,本來就是要傳承跟保護濱維或者是台灣多元的語言文化,但是台灣台語的推動,您真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎?為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前,您最近在舉辦10月13日剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的11場論文時,"},{"start":850.794,"end":857.94,"text":"文化部就直接關上了臺灣、臺語這個名詞,形成了全民共識了嗎?"},{"start":857.94,"end":859.582,"text":"這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢?"},{"start":872.179,"end":872.539,"text":"好,文化部"},{"start":898.359,"end":925.38,"text":"您可以讓各族群再充分討論、再推動這個政策嗎?部長,臺灣台語政策的推動必須要在全民共識上,不能忽略其他族群的感受,包括本席作為一個原住民。政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策,避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席提醒文化,"},{"start":926.451,"end":930.376,"text":"院長,只有在沒有包容的文化政策上,會是另外一種壓迫。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:19:42 - 15:35:26","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155485","gazette":{"lineno":139,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（15時19分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：院長好。今天本席的質詢要聚焦在幾個相關的政策問題來跟您做一些探討，因為這些政策不僅影響深遠，還涉及我國社會的多元文化發展、族群和諧，甚至攸關政策的公平性和政府的責任，每個議題都關乎政府是否能夠誠實面對歷史，是否能夠真正實踐轉型正義，並尊重我們社會的多元文化和價值，我在這邊逐一質詢希望能夠得到院長的具體回應。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝，請委員指教。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，首先針對院長上週在面對高金素梅委員質詢時提出的一個回應，本席這邊有很大的一個疑問。上週他在質詢禁伐政策的時候，您回應他說，共產黨的話是你的競選口號。這個在當時本席很訝異，我相信也震驚了不少人，包括本席在內，覺得院長的回應有一點怠忽輕視，還讓人質疑政府到底瞭不瞭解原住民真正的困境和訴求。","這句話不僅是對高金素梅委員個人的冒犯，更讓所有關心原住民族權益的人感到失望，包括本席。原住民的問題從來都不只是單純的環保問題，還涉及土地、文化認同，還有基本生存權。原住民族基本法也有規定，政府有責任尊重原住民族的文化、生活方式，而高金委員所反應的不是只有他自己的意見，而是我們代表了許多原住民族群體對禁伐政策的憂心，這不應該被簡化成為一個政治口號。所以院長，您這番言論曝露出我國政治中長期存在的一個二分法思維。您凡事碰到不同的聲音，就視為是對立，這種敵我思維，不僅讓政策推不動，還限縮了公共討論的空間。這樣子的作法也忽視了政策對特定族群的實質影響，也削弱了政府作為社會各界溝通橋梁的一個角色。","原住民族的歷史傷痛和當代的處境常常被忽視，而這些問題一直延續到今天的政策當中。上週您的回應不僅沒有幫忙解決這些實質的問題，還加深了一些傷口。高金委員的質詢，不是只有他個人的呼籲，還代表我們許多原住民對政策的深切擔憂。如果政府繼續用政治口號這樣子的方式來應對，那轉型正義還能夠落實嗎？","本席在這邊要求院長，向高金委員正式的公開道歉，這不僅是對他個人的尊重，更是對所有原住民族的尊重。您的呼應、您的回應關乎政府是否有能力、有誠意去面對原住民族，甚至是其他族群的訴求。院長，請您正視這些訴求，中華民國是民主國家，我們應該注重文化的多樣性跟族群之間的平衡，面對族群議題的時候，我們不能以霸道、唯我獨尊的心態去看待。院長，您的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以公開說明，我講了這句話之後後面那句話是什麼？我跟高金委員說，你的為人民服務是要為全國人民服務，你的全國人民不是只有原住民，請他聽懂這句話。"],["林委員倩綺：院長，但是您可能忘了，高金委員也一定要為他所代表的族群發聲。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，他的全國……"],["林委員倩綺：為全國人民服務，甚至為人民服務，應該是大家一起來做的事情。很重要的是，這也是您擔任行政院長應有的工作。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也必須把人民擺在第一，但我必須把全國人民……"],["林委員倩綺：是、是、是，原住民也是人民，所有的族群都是人民。"],["卓院長榮泰：我必須把全國人民放在一樣的地位來看，是不是？我必須這樣來做。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，我們沒有反對……"],["卓院長榮泰：每個委員都有他的選區，也都有他的支持者、他的族群，他可以從他的利益出發，但必須衡量到全國的衡平性，如果一個領域、一個族群的預算可以這樣來編列增加，那對其他的族群來講，就是另外一種比較上的不公平，不是嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：院長，許多人可能不太理解您說的預算如何編列，我想這是行政院很重要的專業，當然我們知道，您在行政院的編列上其實是沒有將這一筆編足，你們雖然常說可以用別的原住民族發展基金來補足，這點我更是反對……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是重點、這不是重點。"],["林委員倩綺：但是這個是編列的專業，我想在這邊最重要的一件事情是您看待這件事情的心態，還有原住民堅持的核心價值。"],["卓院長榮泰：要請委員看一下憲法第七十條，立法院對於行政院預算的審查不能做增加的提議。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝院長提出憲法，但是這件事情我們是依法行政，我們尊重行政院的專業，行政院應該在依法行政上，用你們的專業將這件事情給弭平……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院是憲政機關，行政院和立法院都是憲政機關……"],["林委員倩綺：我們期待未來兩天的朝野協商，能夠有好的結果，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都必須依憲法而行使我們的職權。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝院長，謝謝，請您思考一下剛才本席所講的話。"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經公開說明了。"],["林委員倩綺：好，接下來我們請文化部李部長。"],["主席：麻煩請文化部長備詢。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，謝謝您。院長與部長，接下來本席想請問一下，部長，你要不要跟本席講一下這個人權博物館？即您所了解的人權博物館？"],["李部長遠：我所了解的人權博物館原來它是一個在景美的看守所，後來把它改建成人權園區，保留了所有當時的狀態，然後裡面也做了……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長，那您有去看過嗎？您有去過人權博物館嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不但有去，我還帶學生去做田野調查，然後……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝，那您應該知道本席接下來講的東西，人權博物館是推動轉型正義很重要的一個機構，您認同吧？"],["李部長遠：當然認同，但是我的……"],["林委員倩綺：所以在人權博物館，你應當全面呈現我國各族群的歷史經驗與人權問題，但是我們常看到的，如果您也常去，本席所看到大部分的策展都是集中在白色恐怖時期，對其他歷史時期的壓迫、關注卻嚴重不足。根據國家人權博物館的組織法，博物館應當推動當代人權理念的發展，所以我們來看一下這個數據，這是人權博物館的數據，在策展方面其實相當失衡，33個從你們開館到現在的展覽，有20個是白色恐怖時期的主題，占比已經大約快70%了，那個時期的壓迫和不公當然是重要的，但是在日治時期對原住民族、閩客族群殖民式的壓迫，以日本人對原住民還有閩客的壓迫為例，五年理蕃計畫所造成的歷史傷痛，也沒有被人權博物館納入討論的範圍。在你們115本書籍出版當中，79本就跟白色恐怖時期相關，占比已經差不多70%了，所以在這個展示當中，是不是反映政府在面對族群歷史的時候，長期存在了偏見？難道我們轉型正義只有白色恐怖嗎？那其他時期的歷史傷痛呢？","另外，在不義遺址的定義上，也犯了一樣的錯誤，考慮到我們各個族群都有被壓迫的經驗，甚至現在可能都也有，我們應該涵蓋所有歷史時期的壓迫事件，而不是針對某個政黨的錯誤，這樣子的展示不僅會喪失歷史的全面性，而且有的時候無法還原整個歷史，那會變成一種政治勢力單方面的操作歷史，我期待這樣一個展示，在人權博物館上能夠好好的來檢討，將不同的時期、不同的階段，並用不同的視角、多重的視角，來讓大家能夠好好的了解歷史，我們才不會再重蹈歷史的錯誤……"],["李部長遠：我可不可以回答？我可不可以回答一下？我可不可以回答？"],["林委員倩綺：待會兒會讓你回答，請讓我講完最後這一段，所以本席在這邊希望院長、部長正面回應，我們是不是可以拒絕一個選擇性的操作，讓轉型正義的目的是促進歷史的正義和族群的和解？許多研究顯示，現階段許多民眾對於轉型正義的信任度不高，你們可以看一下，民眾不信任促轉會、民眾不同意轉型正義對和解有幫助、民眾認為轉型正義只是政黨鬥爭，這是一個研究報告，所以可不可以簡單回應……"],["李部長遠：委員，我可以……"],["林委員倩綺：未來在展示的內容上，可不可以多加考量？"],["李部長遠：我很想回答，因為最近我們才要求人權博物館辦一個人權電影展，人權電影展裡面就是講族群、性別等的各種展覽，我們希望人權博物館跳脫你剛才講的那個問題，可以進到所有的人權，但白色恐怖被壓迫的人是不同的族群……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝部長，我很高興你講這樣的話……"],["李部長遠：白色恐怖被壓迫的是不同族群，所以……"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我們來探討一個問題，不然院長可能就沒機會講話了，我們來探討一個問題。你每次講話都讓我非常的感動，但是我所看到你的作為，卻讓我非常的疑問。5月22號在教育及文化委員會備詢，當時你剛上任，有關中正紀念堂的轉型，有許多委員提出問題，你說應該要建立在全民共識的基礎上。當時有人問你有關儀隊在堂體和戶外的操演，你說儀隊不應該是政權轉換的工具，你會徵求各界意見，針對未來的想像有所討論。但是讓我很難理解的是，一個月後，你的態度突然轉變，突然間儀隊被規定在7月中必須移出堂體。在這個過程當中，包括連本席都沒有參與任何的討論，所以你當時講的話其實是讓我非常感動，因為非常人性化，但是你做的、我們看到的回應、實質的作為，卻讓我們非常疑問。中正紀念堂的轉型、儀隊移出堂體，有全民共識嗎？為什麼你的態度在這麼短期間就轉變了？這樣的轉變，有基於充分的討論嗎？還是有其他政治性的考量？"],["李部長遠：我可不可以答？"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分，本席提醒你，針對你剛才提到人權博物館未來的同時，希望你能夠言行合一。","最後，我們還要探討一個文化政策的議題──臺灣台語政策，我想你應該知道，這個政策一推出，引發了不小反彈，在上週的內政委員會，你知道有多少委員針對這個定義還有議題提出了看法？好幾位委員質疑臺灣台語這個名詞是否符合國家語言的定義？這個名詞有沒有侵犯到其他語言的地位？不知道你有沒有注意到？上週是次長列席這個會議，次長回應說，臺灣台語是國家語言之一，地位和原住民族語、客家語、馬祖語、臺灣手語等一樣，並沒有想要侵犯其他語言的意思，很嘉惠次長，但問題是，從其他族群的角度來看，這不就是一種文化上的侵犯嗎？訂定國家語言政策的初衷如你所講的，本來就是要傳承跟保護瀕危或者是臺灣多元的語言文化，但是臺灣台語的推動，你真的考慮到其他族群的感受嗎？為什麼在全民還沒有共識之前，你在最近舉辦、10月13號剛結束的2024國家語言發展會議的十一場分區論壇中，文化部就直接冠上了臺灣台語這個名詞？形成全民共識了嗎？這樣做有沒有單方面的決定呢？還有教育部鄭部長，麻煩一下。"],["主席：麻煩請教育部長備詢。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝！你是在湊什麼熱鬧？你們把閩南語語言能力認證考試規費收費標準，沒有經過討論，就改成臺灣台語語言能力認證考試規費收費標準，這樣的改名，引發好多老師的爭議，拜託教育部，現在問題還沒有解決，不要再來湊熱鬧了，好不好？","文化部，你可以讓各族群再充分討論，再推動這個政策嗎？部長，臺灣台語政策的推動，必須要在全民共識上，不能忽略其他族群的感受，包括本席作為一個原住民。","最後本席要呼籲政府和文化部應該要重新審視你們幾個有爭議的文化政策，避免文化沙文主義和選擇性操作的陷阱。本席要提醒院長，只有在沒有包容的文化政策上會是另外一種壓迫，只有走不出歷史的人才會在文化威權中療傷。"],["卓院長榮泰：這句話很好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第11號吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-15","影片長度":"00:16:08","end_time":"2024-10-15T15:19:18+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155484","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","duration":968,"start_time":"2024-10-15T15:03:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a3ab458bd335e947ebe07125be331933624c79fb42d37a1d403f01681df84d9e040c9255cff6fc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.39971875,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.36159375,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.403468750000002,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.098468750000002,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.44846875,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.06846875,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.12284375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.05096875,"end":34.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.41784375,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.14721875,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.838468750000004,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.049093750000004,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.99159375000001,"end":67.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.61096875,"end":71.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.74971875,"end":77.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.24346875,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.76659375000001,"end":176.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.25221875,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.36596875,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.56846875000002,"end":178.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.59784375,"end":182.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.46659375000002,"end":184.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.55909375000002,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.03971875000002,"end":189.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.77346875,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.98846875,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.95846875,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.97471875000002,"end":199.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.56096875,"end":200.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.91096875000002,"end":202.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.29471875000002,"end":204.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.16784375,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.11284375000002,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.69909375,"end":208.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.65659375,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.26659375000003,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.43471875,"end":226.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.30346875,"end":230.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.86409375000002,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.06159375000001,"end":238.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.81659375,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.07346875000002,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.97159375,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.88221875000002,"end":251.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.12659375,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.06721875000002,"end":254.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.14721875,"end":258.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.11284375,"end":260.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.35721875,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.46221875000003,"end":265.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.87971875,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.64284375,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.11409375,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.53971875,"end":283.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.23971875,"end":286.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.38284375,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.54721875,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.16721875,"end":289.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.04471875,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.06534375,"end":294.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.10721875,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.17034375000003,"end":299.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.91659375,"end":316.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.9628437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請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選也請文化部長李遠部長麻煩請文化部部長備選陳委員好院長好 院長請問您有看過黑白大廚這個節目嗎"},{"start":39.298,"end":64.165,"text":"我這個禮拜天的下午還是禮拜的下午看了一段。所以有人推薦您看。黑白大廚是目前最夯的韓國實境秀,風靡全球。黑白大廚播映之後,紛紛有網友來討論說臺灣有沒有能力資金拍出像這樣的實境秀。院長您認為韓國有黑白大廚,臺灣也有沒有德基賽的出路才?我覺得我最近看"},{"start":64.821,"end":65.363,"text":"我肯定我認為臺灣有能力"},{"start":71.817,"end":78.02,"text":"我們有這樣的能力,但是我們有沒有這樣的決心?當全球的觀眾從一個判斷比賽的節目得到各種啟發,開始討論比賽輸贏的人生哲理,商業的專業管理的重要,旅遊平台他們統計說韓國美食文化成為吸引遊客的優先考慮,參賽者在餐廳內被慕名而來的Talker預約到爆滿。"},{"start":98.849,"end":123.443,"text":"一個成功的節目其實它的成就並不只在戲劇的效果﹖帶動周邊的這些效益無可計數﹖更遑論說所謂的一道料理就一春﹖甚至說一個節目就全韓國的餐飲業。同時一個成功的節目要投入也不只是戲劇的部分﹖從企劃、投入、設備、成本、賽程、安排、邀請參賽者﹖人際網的運用我們請得動評審﹖"},{"start":128.586,"end":146.741,"text":"這樣的創意跟執行力我們的影視有沒有去體會到影視之路其實如逆水行舟不進則退當你進步的不夠快的時候就會被別人超越那除了公部門的扶植獎勵補助之外我們有沒有企圖心我們有沒有進軍國際市場的決心有沒有帶給觀眾共鳴的信心"},{"start":151.685,"end":175.241,"text":"我們文化部為了扶植相關的影視音產業也執行了相當多的計畫也補助了不少很優質的劇本以及音樂的製作那文策院這邊也投資了很多很優質的戲劇當我們不斷的前進不斷的進步的時候其實其他的影視音大國也不斷的創新跟進步他們大步向前所以我們要問黑潮計畫如何引領台流?"},{"start":179.687,"end":199.81,"text":"好,謝謝委員給我們這個機會。西元2000年韓國金大中總統上來之後開始推動韓流,我都有一直注意,一直到現在,我覺得韓國的發展可以讓我們接近之外,我們台灣本身的文化底蘊跟韓國也不完全一樣,我非常感謝在這幾年"},{"start":201.131,"end":218.047,"text":"政府給了我們一個黑潮計畫也就是4年100億可以讓我們的輔導基金不管是劇或者是電影增加輔導錢之外還有文社院的投資文社院拿到國發基金的100億也幫助了我們去投資有國際規格的劇跟電影"},{"start":220.844,"end":222.465,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":241.17,"end":268.001,"text":"提檢稅這些文創的法律我們都陸續已經通過所以我自己個人有一直看到很多企業已經在投資而且來跟我們申請提檢稅第三個我們一定要知道像Netflix這種國際型的大型的OTT我們台灣實在是不夠那麼大但是最近我們已經開始非常積極的跟三大電信這個三雄比如中華電信、遠傳"},{"start":269.682,"end":274.503,"text":"三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月11日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":300.066,"end":300.526,"text":"請教育部長備選"},{"start":336.343,"end":365.255,"text":"院長,接下來本席這邊要跟院長討論有關電子煙的相關問題。 到目前為止其實電子煙包含煙油跟機器本身都是管制的項目,也就是說是禁止輸入、買賣跟吸食。 但是本席相信您院長跟部長也知道目前外面其實可以看到民眾甚至是學生是拿著電子煙在吸食。 本席也特地上網找過,院長可以看一下我們的投影片,其實在網路上購買電子煙是非常容易的。"},{"start":365.735,"end":384.564,"text":"有網站說可以替客戶隱密包裝用不顯示內容物的方式來規避查緝那實際上呢其實實體的店家私下賣的也不少真的不難買到我手上這就是電子煙的機器的本身那這個是煙袋口味很多種"},{"start":386.089,"end":405.598,"text":"哈密瓜還有芒果我把它放到我的包包裡我一直都聞到哈密瓜那個香味然後這個煙蛋它也不貴它真的不貴又容易買它一盒裡面有三顆它有三顆煙蛋很容易買到那本席之所以憂心是因為電子煙油不僅它的內容成分不安全也會有含有毒品的煙蛋"},{"start":410.14,"end":424.471,"text":"其實國建署的調查,青少年使用電子煙的比例是年年上升,這是一個警訊。 之所以提到電子煙以及煙彈,是因為目前新興毒品也就是俗稱的上市煙彈非常的猖獗。"},{"start":425.271,"end":447.93,"text":"近幾個月也有因為毒價而奪走多名員警的生命所以這一類的毒品對人體的傷害是非常的大十分的嚴重那令本席很憂心就是說已經有所謂上市煙彈進入校園這樣的報導所以本席這邊想了解到說我們教育部對於所謂上市煙彈進入校園的狀況你們有掌握嗎?你們有了解這個狀況嗎?"},{"start":449.708,"end":469.543,"text":"跟委員報告,確實這一個有學校會不定期的有學生有這樣的一個,其實這一個電子菸或者一些我們講的所謂的這些毒品,三級的毒品,我們是學務處這一個部分,學務室他這有一個校安隨時都會通報的。"},{"start":471.674,"end":487.952,"text":"所以這邊教育部也有了解到這樣的狀況喔上次煙彈其實在今年的8月才正式列為第三類毒品那我們的孩子能不能抵擋上次煙彈的誘惑或是能不能戰勝好奇心院長您覺得說我們要如何有效的防堵上次煙彈進入校園"},{"start":490.094,"end":490.494,"text":"真的很容易買到?"},{"start":513.03,"end":538.217,"text":"所以這個就是我們現在禁制之後還沒有開放 這個不會開放的我們希望能夠這個教育部也好 一個相關的這個內政部的警察單位也好警政單位也好 也應該要做這個部分 因為已經把剛剛講的這個玉兔米子已經列為第三類的毒品了 那他就必須強力去取締黑金槍毒詐是我們武打期間裡面重要的列項 所以我們會全力去處理"},{"start":539.192,"end":540.013,"text":"我想是有的部長真真覺得是有"},{"start":565.856,"end":592.297,"text":"上次煙彈的危害其實不僅是成年的沒有辦法承受其實相對更會損害我們孩子的健康那我們看一下教育部這邊的資料112年國小濫用藥物通報案件有4件113年到8月就已經有4件了表示藥物濫用的年紀有往下的趨勢所以在這邊本席要要求第一個教育部應該要了解藥物濫用的這個藥物內容"},{"start":594.518,"end":613.835,"text":"針對新興毒品要及時及時的做出防毒宣導的教材來供教育現場的老師宣導教學使用。 第二個部分一定要橫向的聯合我們社政警政跟衛生的系統防毒安全網不應該有黑數存在我們必須清楚的掌握資訊才能夠有效的防堵。"},{"start":614.375,"end":638.252,"text":"第三個部分,國小藥物濫用這個建樹不降反升,所以很令人憂心說說濫用藥物的年齡階層往下這個趨勢變成是常態,所以對國小學生的這個加強宣導其實刻不容緩,部長您覺得?謝謝委員的提醒,確實委員剛才所提的那三個方向都是我們現在在努力的,而且這樣的一個菸毒的一個防治,"},{"start":639.173,"end":662.069,"text":"我相信他是社區學校跟家庭都要共同來合作所以在這個部分裡邊我們透過親師的一個座談或者班級的一個班會跟班級輔導相對的程度我們都會做一些事實的監導而且對他可能造成身心的這個傷害包括可能在這個法令上的一些這個違法的這些東西我們都會在一併的在"},{"start":672.076,"end":687.888,"text":"謝謝部長,所以本席剛才做了這個三個要求,我希望教育部真的要正視,就是對於我們及時做出這些防堵的這些教材,還有就是說我們要聯合社政警政跟衛生系統,以及我們對國小的學生加強這個宣導的教學。"},{"start":688.709,"end":714.548,"text":"其實防治毒品是一條漫漫長路上次煙彈它不會是終點一定會有不斷的有新興的新制的毒品被製造出來那我們最終都是希望說毒品不會進到校園希望我們的孩子不要碰毒希望我們的孩子能夠判斷能夠保護自己所以希望教育部能夠為毒品防治能夠更積極那接下來院長我們一樣關心孩童的安全這也是個很讓人家比較痛心的一個議題"},{"start":722.329,"end":744.72,"text":"根據我們新聞的統計顯示從2021年開始我國的兒少交通事故傷亡人數是逐年的攀升少年的部分呢2023年增加了1486人兒童的部分暴增了2551人所以2023年的統計呢高達30151名的兒少在交通事故中有傷亡的情況"},{"start":745.64,"end":749.541,"text":"目前我們在學校端有沒有進行交通安全教育有沒有符合我們現在臺灣的交通現況?"},{"start":767.868,"end":789.129,"text":"除了委員說的報告這個資料之外,我們現在在學校周遭選擇200處的學校要優先改善它的入口,那現在就我所知道已經進行了大概將近50處以上,那另外就是危險入口在799處當中我們也進行了400多處,這個都是進一步要確保在"},{"start":789.93,"end":806.645,"text":"行進的過程當中保障行人當然包括兒童包括一般行人的交通安全那這個會變成一個我們一直推動到明年一直進行完成的同時也會增加很多的號誌告示警告來告訴大家哪一個地方"},{"start":807.346,"end":809.827,"text":"謝謝院長的回答那其實在硬體的設施設備的提升安全度這個是也是非常的重要但是本期希望說"},{"start":828.638,"end":855.783,"text":"我們一定要注重孩子們交通安全的教育讓他去意識到怎樣的行的安全是正確的觀念然後如何保護自己所以我這邊希望說院長要跨部會來協調交通部跟教育部我們在學校要落實交通安全教育的推廣尤其應該要導入體驗式的這樣的交通教育實際的教導我們的孩子比如說他們在過馬路等紅燈的時候或是走斑馬線的時候如何避開視線死角"},{"start":857.603,"end":881.792,"text":"我們要給他正確的觀念來保護自己行的安全這樣子除了說我們在硬體設備安全的這個提升之外他本身有這樣子的安全的意識才能夠保護自己我們才能夠照顧我們的下一代所以這個部分是不是請院長可以研議我們提出具體的措施跟目標給本席就是關於這個兒童的交通安全教育的這個措施"},{"start":882.568,"end":883.288,"text":"本席剛才有強調過說是不是應該導入體驗式的交通教育"},{"start":911.181,"end":937.521,"text":"跟委員報告我想剛才委員所強調體驗室的這個交通安全的一個學習我想我們這個中小學都有在做的那在這裡邊其實也要利用這個機會我們一起要請社區跟家長因為所有造成交通事故的基本上我們可以說都是成年人來自於社區或者家長的一個接送小孩子那兒童"},{"start":965.73,"end":966.212,"text":"謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢,也謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:03:10 - 15:19:18","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155484","gazette":{"lineno":88,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（15時3分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員秀寳：也請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：麻煩請文化部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長好。請問你有看過「黑白大廚」這個節目嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我這個禮拜天的下午還是禮拜……的下午看了一段。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以有人推薦你看嘛！「黑白大廚」是目前最夯的韓國實境秀，風靡全球。「黑白大廚」播映之後，紛紛有網友在討論臺灣有沒有能力、資金拍出像這樣的實境秀。院長，您認為呢？韓國有「黑白大廚」，臺灣有沒有「刀煮師」的手路菜？"],["卓院長榮泰：我最近看許多臺灣的影劇節目或是實境節目，我肯定、我認為臺灣有能力拍出這樣一個風格水準，甚至內容豐富的節目和影片。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們有這樣能力，但是我們有沒有這樣的決心？當全球的觀眾從一個烹飪比賽的節目得到各種啟發，開始討論比賽輸贏的人生哲理、商業的專業管理的重要，旅遊平台統計顯示，韓國美食文化成為吸引遊客的優先考慮，參賽者的餐廳被慕名而來的饕客預約到爆滿。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實一個成功的節目，它的成就並不只在戲劇的效果，它帶動的周邊效益無可計數，更遑論所謂的「一道料理救一村」，甚至「一個節目救全韓國」的餐飲業。同時，一個成功的節目要投入的也不只是戲劇的部分，從企劃、投入設備、成本、賽程安排、邀請參賽者、人際網的運用請得動評審，這樣的創意跟執行力，我們的影視有沒有體會到影視之路其實如逆水行舟，不進則退？當你進步得不夠快的時候，就會被別人超越。","除了公部門的扶植、獎勵、補助之外，我們有沒有企圖心？我們有沒有進軍國際市場的決心？有沒有帶給觀眾共鳴的信心？文化部為了扶植相關的影視音產業，執行了相當多的計畫，也補助了不少很優質的劇本以及音樂的製作，當然文策院這邊也投資了很多很優質的戲劇，當我們不斷前進、不斷進步的時候，其實其他影視音大國也在不斷創新跟進步，他們大步向前，所以我們要問：黑潮計畫如何引領臺流？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員給我們這個機會。西元2000年，韓國金大中總統上來之後，開始推動韓流，我都有一直注意，一直到現在，我覺得韓國的發展可以讓我們借鏡之外，我們臺灣本身的文化底蘊跟韓國也不完全一樣。我非常感謝在這幾年政府給了我們一個黑潮計畫，也就是4年100億，可以讓我們的輔導金，不管是劇或者是電影增加輔導的錢之外，還有文策院的投資，文策院拿到國發基金的100億，也幫助了我們去投資有國際規格的劇跟電影，這些動作雖然比較慢，但是已經開始了。另外我們也在修法，鼓勵引進民間資金來投入，因為韓國最厲害的一點就是把民間的錢，全部引進來到這個影視產業……"],["陳委員秀寳：現在有找到願意來投資的？"],["李部長遠：有！因為只要有抵減稅這些文創的法律，而我們已經陸續通過了，所以我個人有一直看到很多企業已經在投資，而且來跟我們申請抵減稅。","第三，我們一定要知道，像Netflix這種國際型的大型OTT，我們臺灣實在是不夠那麼大，但是最近我們已經開始非常積極地跟電信三雄──中華電信、遠傳和台灣大哥大進行了投資，而且這個事情已經快要順利完成，我非常感謝國發基金把我們的影視產業認為是國家的戰略產業，願意給我們100億，100億快要用完了，給我們第二個100億，我們絕對會很小心地使用這個100億。請相信臺灣的影視和文化跟韓國還是有不同的路線，我們晚了韓國大概一、二十年……"],["陳委員秀寳：當然是不同的國情有不同的路線……"],["李部長遠：對、對。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是從剛剛部長您的回答，我也能感受到說，如何精進、如何檢討，其實你心中已經有一個規劃，也希望我們臺流的發展需要這樣的刺激跟激勵還有決心，我們一定要展現出來。"],["李部長遠：是，這點我有信心。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長。","部長可以先回座。接下來請教育部鄭英耀鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請教育部長備詢。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來本席要跟院長討論有關電子煙的問題。我國到目前為止，電子煙包含煙油跟機器本身都是管制的項目，也就是禁止輸入、買賣跟吸食，但是本席相信院長跟部長也知道目前外面其實可以看到民眾、甚至是學生拿著電子煙在吸食。本席也特地上網找過，院長可以看一下我們的投影片，其實在網路上購買電子煙是非常容易的，還有網站說可以替客戶隱密包裝，用不顯示內容物的方式來規避查緝，實際上實體店家私下販賣的也不少，真的不難買到。我手上拿的就是電子煙的機器本身，這個是煙彈，口味很多種，這是哈密瓜和芒果，把它放在包包裡，我一直都聞到哈密瓜的香味。這個煙彈它也不貴，它真的不貴，又容易買，一盒裡面有3顆，很容易買到。","本席之所以憂心是因為電子煙油不僅它的內容成分不安全，也會有含有毒品的煙彈。院長，這邊也可以看一下數據，根據國健署的調查，青少年使用電子煙的比例是年年上升，其實這是一個警訊，之所以提到電子煙以及煙彈，是因為目前新興毒品，也就是俗稱的喪屍煙彈非常的猖獗，近幾個月也有因為毒駕而奪走多名員警的生命，所以這一類的毒品對人體的傷害是非常的大，十分的嚴重，令本席很憂心的是，已經有所謂喪屍煙彈進入校園這樣的報導。所以本席這邊想了解，教育部對於所謂喪屍煙彈進入校園的狀況你們有掌握嗎？你們有了解這個狀況嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實有學校會不定期有學生吸食電子煙，或者我們所謂的這些毒品、三級毒品，我們是針對學務處這一個部分，學務司這裡有一個校安中心，隨時都會通報的。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以教育部也有了解到這樣的狀況。喪屍煙彈其實在今年8月才正式列為第三類毒品，我們的孩子能不能抵擋喪屍煙彈的誘惑，或是能不能戰勝好奇心？院長，您覺得我們要如何有效的防堵喪屍煙彈進入校園？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們現在在討論的過程當中，我們是在針對加熱菸，所以電子煙目前是完全沒有開放的、是禁止的，加熱菸目前也還沒有開放，只是它進入到一個由各家提出來審議的過程當中，這個勢必要非常、非常的嚴謹，因為兩相比較，電子煙對青少年的危害、對人類的危害還是多的……"],["陳委員秀寳：它真的很容易買到。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以這就是我們現在在禁制之後，還沒有開放，這個是不會開放的，我們希望教育部也好，相關內政部的警察單位也好、警政單位也好，也應該要做這個部分，因為已經把剛剛講的依托咪酯列為第三類的毒品，他就必須強力去取締。「黑、金、槍、毒、詐」是我們五打七安裡面重要的列項，所以我們會全力去處理。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席這邊要先請教，經過校安通報學生濫用藥物中，有沒有做分別的統計，或者了解學生濫用是什麼藥物？有沒有去做分析哪一個年齡階層容易接觸到哪一種藥物？到目前為止，教育部有沒有收到學生使用喪屍煙彈而被通報的案子？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想是有的。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長真覺得是有喔？喪屍煙彈的危害其實不僅是成年人沒有辦法承受，其實相對更會損害我們孩子的健康。我們看一下教育部這邊的資料，112年國小濫用藥物的通報案件有4件，113年到8月，才到8月就已經有4件了，表示藥物濫用的年紀有往下的趨勢。所以在這邊本席要要求，第一個，教育部應該要了解藥物濫用的藥物內容，針對新興毒品要即時做出防毒宣導教材來供教育現場的老師宣導、教學使用。第二個部分，一定要橫向的聯合我們社政、警政跟衛生的系統，防毒安全網不應該有黑數存在，我們必須清楚的掌握資訊，才能夠有效的防堵。第三個部分，國小藥物濫用的件數不降反升，所以很令人憂心是不是濫用藥物的年齡階層往下這個趨勢變成是常態？所以對國小學生的加強宣導其實刻不容緩。部長，您覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實委員剛才所提的那三個方向都是我們現在在努力的，而且這樣一個菸毒的防制，我相信它是社區、學校跟家庭都要共同合作。所以在這個部分裡面，我們透過親師的座談或者班級的班會跟班級輔導，相對的程度，我們都會做一些適時的宣導，而且對於它可能造成身心的傷害，包括可能在這個法令上違法的這些東西，我們都會一併在相關的課程裡面融入或者加強這一方面的宣導。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長。所以本席剛才做了三個要求，我希望教育部真的要正視，就是我們要即時做出防毒的這些教材，還有我們要聯合社政、警政跟衛生系統，以及我們對國小的學生加強這個宣導的教學。其實防制毒品是條漫漫長路，像是煙彈，它不會是終點，一定會不斷的有新興的、新製的毒品被製造出來，我們最終都是希望毒品不會進到校園、希望我們的孩子不要碰毒，希望我們的孩子能夠判斷、能夠保護自己，所以希望教育部能夠在毒品防制上更積極。","接下來，院長，我們一樣要關心孩童的安全，這也是個很讓人痛心的一個議題。根據我們新聞的統計顯示，從2021年開始，我國的兒少交通事故傷亡人數是逐年的攀升，少年的部分，2023年增加了1,486人；兒童的部分暴增了2,551人，所以2023年的統計，高達3萬151名的兒少在交通事故中有傷亡的情況。臺灣的少子化情況非常的嚴峻，現在兒少交通事故傷亡的人數又持續地攀升，這是個非常嚴重的問題，顯見兒少的交通事故問題亟待檢討。我想請教院長，目前我們在學校端有沒有進行交通安全教育？有沒有符合我們現在臺灣的交通現況？"],["卓院長榮泰：除了委員的這個資料之外，我們現在在學校周遭，選擇200處學校要優先改善它的路口，那現在據我所知道，已經進行了大概將近50處以上。另外就是危險路口，在799處當中，我們也進行了四百多處，這個都是進一步要確保在行進的過程當中，保障行人當然包括兒童、包括一般行人的交通安全，這個會變成一個我們一直推動的工作，直到明年進行完成。同時，也會增加很多的號誌、告示、警告來告訴大家，哪一個地方駕駛人必須提高注意，駕駛人沒有停留，這個是現在最大的一個詬病，所以我們要做更多的這種教育過程，才能讓大家的交通安全意識能夠迅速的提高。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝院長的回答。其實在硬體的設施、設備的提升，安全度也是非常的重要，但是本席希望說，我們一定要注重孩子們交通安全的教育，讓他去意識到怎樣的行的安全是正確的觀念，然後如何保護自己，所以我希望院長要跨部會來協調交通部跟教育部，我們在學校要落實交通安全教育的推廣，尤其應該要導入體驗式的交通教育，實際的教導我們的孩子，比如說他們在過馬路等紅燈的時候或是走斑馬線的時候，如何避開視線死角，我們要給他正確的觀念來保護自己行的安全，這樣子除了我們在硬體設備安全的提升之外，他本身有這樣子的安全意識，才能夠保護自己，我們才能夠照顧我們的下一代，所以這個部分是不是請院長可以研議，提出具體的措施跟目標給本席，就是關於兒童交通安全教育的措施。"],["卓院長榮泰：基本的教育，我想任何的學校都已經在進行了，我們希望能夠有更重點性的，比方告訴小朋友說，我們有的號誌有早開的系統，幫助你過馬路，可以提早把這個號誌亮起來，幫助你過馬路，讓你有充裕的時間等等，這個讓小朋友知道他在過馬路的時候，有更多的安全資訊系統可以保護他，他也可以去利用。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席剛才有強調是不是應該導入體驗式的交通教育。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們要一個實景的。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，剛才委員所強調體驗式的交通安全學習，我想我們的中小學都有在做，在這邊其實也要利用這個機會，我們要請社區跟家長一起，因為所有造成交通事故的，基本上可以說都是成年人，來自於社區或者家長接送小孩子，兒童、小朋友是受害者，所以我們其實更呼籲大人應該要遵守交通規則，然後怎麼樣去共同來保護、維護兒少整個成長更好的空間。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實交通安全是大家全面都要遵守的，我現在要強調的是孩子們保護自己的能力，如何判斷在路口能夠維護自己的安全，這個部分希望我們教育部能多用心。以上，謝謝！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","向院會報告，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是台灣公民參與協會的朋友，熱情歡迎。","接下來我們請登記第10號林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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這邊也希望院長能夠盡快支持各部會來,盡快來協助。那這次三坨河颱風不只重創我們高屏地區,就是在屏東旁邊的台東,也是這幾個重災區。 照片中我們可以看到,"},{"start":59.602,"end":82.007,"text":"五十六重回民眾的家園、農地、基居掩埋根據我們農業部的統計這次台東縣的農災高達4000萬以上是我們全國第三關但是在颱風過後我們看到賴清德總統到了金山萬里勘災不斷地請主到我們屏東來會堪我們副院長也到了新北的著名美術館"},{"start":83.007,"end":108.386,"text":"那是針對全國農損第三慘重的臺東, 中央部會遲遲沒有派人下來看災。 上個禮拜五,也就是10月11日在本期的要求下, 行政院工程會、農業部、園民會也才終於派人到臺東來會看災。 請議長在這邊我必須代表臺東人,對這一次山陀和颱風, 中央對於臺東的漠視表達最嚴重的抗議。 議長"},{"start":111.196,"end":138.897,"text":"臺東的山雖然比較多,但災情不至於看不到。 臺東的人口雖然比較少,但民眾的聲音也不至於聽不到。 未來也希望中央在救災,千萬不要大硝煙。 尤其是這一次山洞的颱風過後,我們農業部公告的這個農業天然災害現金補助分,我們隔壁的地區是全品項。 臺東縣目前只有達人鄉、大武鄉、金峰鄉、太馬里鄉,也就是所謂的南回地區的特用作物,就是洛神花。"},{"start":139.798,"end":168.592,"text":"在做這個補助我想這落差實在太大這個是簡直是把臺東當第二等公民那針對臺東災後的協助本席有兩點要求希望院長能夠表明態度第一就是針對臺東災後的農產損失農地流失繼續損壞中央必須擴大補助而不是只有現在的洛神華這個項目那針對臺東縣政府所提報的災後重建的部分中央也要盡力的來提供經費協助地方渡過難關"},{"start":169.693,"end":185.324,"text":"第二,專案該比照凱米颱風期間補助中環部縣市的專案, 額外給予颱東縣災民每戶2萬元的補助金。 另外針對特殊身份加碼,讓災民能夠盡快恢復日常生活。 請問院長,這個部分是不是院長承諾來協助?"},{"start":186.505,"end":209.798,"text":"好首先向委員表示歉意因為在一樣的時間我們總能走的就是有限的空間所以總統也好副院長也好我跟我也好我們就在上個禮拜六禮拜天跑了一些地方那很抱歉的是上個禮拜我們又有國慶的各種外賓的來訪等等又有其他又有總諮詢我是在沒有辦法分身乏術這點真的是抱歉不過委員放心所有的"},{"start":211.239,"end":227.179,"text":"風災之後的補助的標準,我們都照過去一樣的來執行,一樣的來執行,你要講最後那一點,就是是不是可以有加兩萬,這個我們對淹水50米以上的,我們都有這樣加,50米以下我們也加5000,我記得。"},{"start":228.3,"end":228.32,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":249.053,"end":254.514,"text":"謝謝副長非常正面的答覆那我想以上是颱風過後我們希望中央能夠立即來協助的部分那接下來我想要再跟院長來請教說針對今年0403強震之後加上連續的颱風造成花東地區的觀光產業一落千丈"},{"start":275.098,"end":294.532,"text":"在這次我們進一步公布最新的電價調整方案中﹐有看到專門來協助花園的旅宿業者﹐這個部分本席非常地贊同。 院長其實花東本是一體﹐政府在補助的過程裡面﹐要雪中種碳﹐不是雪上加霜﹐如果"},{"start":295.353,"end":307.983,"text":"花蓮受創,臺東也嚴重。 這部分也是請院長回去務必跟我們相關部會來研議,臺東縣能夠比照花蓮給予臺東的旅宿業者來協助,幫助他們走過難關。 院長畢竟臺東的產業非常單純,一個是農業一個就是觀光,這部分院長是不是能夠來允諾?"},{"start":313.899,"end":337.69,"text":"好,是的,原來如果不是颱風的因素,所以我也跟委員約好了要去臺東,瞭解臺東的產業,臺東各種的農產,以及臺東這個當地在0403之後花蓮影響跟臺東影響的狀況,我們會全力來協助,花蓮有的,臺東就會有。謝謝院長,院長本期可以當地培,找中國人地培就可以。好,我們一起,一起。"},{"start":338.991,"end":339.572,"text":"請教育部長備詢"},{"start":358.237,"end":381.109,"text":"來部長好 委員好部長本席首先要為臺東的學子來請命之前有一個新聞就是臺東高中的學生是穿著襪子在游泳池上游泳課那因為原因就是因為這個游泳池老舊池底有這個死灰質沉澱所以導致學生在游泳的時候腳都會化傷那學校沒辦法的情況就是先穿襪子去上游泳課這件事情其實在新聞也被報導過"},{"start":382.21,"end":399.695,"text":"那另外呢,就是我們臺東女中的這個紅土跑道操場損毀的問題,它不只損毀,還有包括還有坑道,那每次東北氣風來就是塵土飛揚,那雨後還會積水,造成學生運動會容易受傷。那今年6月份的時候,本期在委員會質詢部長的時候,部長也答應,"},{"start":401.957,"end":420.516,"text":"來全力協助這邊先謝謝部長但就本席了解目前兩間學校已經提報了相關的改善經費給教育部那分別是臺東高中游泳池改善經費是1000萬元那臺東女中的操場改善經費是1500萬元請問我們部裡面什麼時候會通過核定另外是不是能夠全額來補助"},{"start":423.589,"end":450.752,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為確實上一次的那一個有關游泳池穿襪子那一個確實是學校在整個那一個溺水的一個系統它出的狀況那當時他們並沒有針對這一個整個這一個問題提出申請所以感謝委員的一個提醒然後這個部裡邊這個國教署也按照這一個請學校再趕快再補送這一個資料那我想我們應該會"},{"start":452.453,"end":453.314,"text":"拜託,拜託部長,這個小朋友已經開學了齁?"},{"start":477.125,"end":477.405,"text":"請國科委主委備選"},{"start":519.775,"end":548.171,"text":"主委好主委那個先前有國科有表示說今年我們要選定這個國家火箭發射場那可能座落的位置是在台東縣跟屏東縣這兩個地方來擇一那我想要考慮到地理物理環境的影響那也要足夠的擴充性最重要是能夠跟當地政府來溝通那本席這邊要幫台東縣來爭取這個場址那會這樣的原因有兩個原因第一個就是說"},{"start":549.272,"end":575.093,"text":"而我們發設的預定地的位置,原本選定的是在臺東縣達人鄉的南田村,那村長這邊表示說他非常的樂意,村民也普遍的能夠接受,認為是可以帶動地方的觀光產業發展。那當地的議員也認為這可以增加就業的機會,臺東縣政府也是表示歡迎。這代表國發會未來如果選在這邊設置的話,地方的溝通應該會很順利,對於後續我們要推動也是水到渠成。"},{"start":575.914,"end":597.611,"text":"那第二個建議的點就是因為屏東縣的部分在我們牡丹鄉已經先前有的短期科研、碳空、火箭發熱場域那國科會這次選舉可以考慮整個區域的平衡讓兩個地方都能夠從事有這樣的機會來發展這特殊的產業那我想不單單是可以讓造就台東"},{"start":598.592,"end":603.335,"text":"謝謝黃委員目前我們兩個場址包含台東縣的南田部落還有屏東縣的九坤村都符合我們基本的條件設定的這個要求"},{"start":625.854,"end":654.271,"text":"那現在兩個縣政府也都很積極的希望能夠來爭取經過國會審慎的這個規劃我們的確是希望把我們未來火箭國家火箭發射場子能夠把它經營成不是只有偶爾去發射火箭而已而是一個教育的也是一個教育的場子也是一個能夠促進觀光的場子促進這個地方發展的這個場子所以相信未來這個規劃"},{"start":655.748,"end":658.389,"text":"主委準席再次拉票台東縣是您選擇的一個好答案"},{"start":684.735,"end":705.901,"text":"謝謝主委主委先休息我想問一下部長部長接下來我們要請教最近的議題就是斑斑有鮮乳的這個議題那我想教育部先前跟農業部共同推出這個斑斑有鮮乳政策那許多縣市不同部那已經有些老師會反映這個在不管在保存配送方面都會增加教育現場非常大的負擔"},{"start":706.681,"end":707.021,"text":"部長請回答"},{"start":728.756,"end":745.674,"text":"協會委員關心這個我們怎麼樣讓兒童能夠有一個更好的一個成長的環境,包括在營養上的一個支持,這個鈣跟蛋白質的一個補充。我想這一個當時的一個起心動念就是希望能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展空間。"},{"start":748.237,"end":768.945,"text":"部長本席補充齁,台東縣以整個台東縣來說,我們有26所學校是申請鮮乳,91所學校是申請補酒乳,不是大家比較愛喝補酒乳,原因就是因為你鮮乳的配送成本太高,台東福利又廣闊了齁,那雖然這個政策很好,可是有時候你看得到就喝得到嘛,"},{"start":769.585,"end":797.017,"text":"所以最重要是這經費是誰要來協助啦,不能你中央政策改好,中央你請人家,你費用要給人家來負擔嗎?感謝委員指導,因為確實我們這一學期也希望能夠透過這個實際的,因為本來全台灣已經有10個縣市,不管結合營養午餐或者其他的一個時間,提供這個先來的一個供給。那我們也希望說,除了地方政府有一些趕快能夠下單,然後這一個怎麼樣去"},{"start":797.777,"end":798.818,"text":"副副副副副副副"},{"start":817.742,"end":820.903,"text":"我現在要表達偏鄉的工人員跟老師的心聲曾經有一部很有名的電影叫做老師您會不會再回來老師你會不會再回來這是在講什麼講偏鄉老師流動率的問題"},{"start":848.171,"end":857.254,"text":"那個部長、院長你們知道現在臺東公交人員的加急是多少錢嗎?630塊,臺北到臺東火車票將近800塊,等於說東臺加急,一個月的加急還不夠買一張車票。"},{"start":865.092,"end":865.373,"text":"謝謝委員的這個指正"},{"start":880.356,"end":907.558,"text":"因為我確實我上來以後我們感受到這一個偏鄉喜多的這些老師怎麼樣讓老師有一個能夠更長久的留任在偏鄉前任的潘部長也特別通過了這一個各位委員的一個支持這個9任獎金行政業也全力來支持在114年我們就會有一個9任獎金那另外一個老師我們怎麼樣去考慮像花蓮、台東的老師讓他能夠"},{"start":908.439,"end":909.26,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":971.369,"end":973.762,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝黃建賓委員質詢,謝謝卓院長及相關部會主席。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-4","title":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:46:42 - 15:02:57","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月11日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月15日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","id":"155483","gazette":{"lineno":35,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請我們行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：院長好。今天本來是我們教育組的質詢，不過，其實我們真的只有在總質詢的時候，才可以當面跟我們院長來討論跟爭取地方的一些經費，就像剛剛莊瑞雄委員講的部分，這部分我會繼續延續下去……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你隨時有意見，我們都可以互相來討論，沒有問題。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長。院長，這次針對山陀兒颱風過後，有許多需要重建的問題，這邊也希望院長能夠儘快指示各部會儘快來協助。這次山陀兒颱風不只重創我們高屏地區，其實在屏東旁邊的臺東也是這次的重災區，照片中我們可以看到土石流沖毀民眾的家園、農地、機具掩埋。根據農業部的統計，這次臺東縣農損高達四千萬以上，是我們全國第三高，但是在颱風過後，我們看到賴清德總統到金山、萬里勘災；部長也親自到屏東來會勘；我們副院長也到了新北朱銘美術館勘災，但是針對全國農損第三慘重的臺東，中央部會遲遲沒有派人下來勘災。上個禮拜五，也就是10月11號，在本席的要求下，行政院工程會、農業部、原民會也才終於派員到臺東來會勘災情。院長，在這邊我必須代表臺東人，對這一次山陀兒颱風中央對於臺東的漠視，表達最嚴重的抗議！","院長，臺東的山雖然比較多，但災情不至於看不到；臺東的人口雖然比較少，但民眾的聲音也不至於聽不到，未來也希望中央在救災上，千萬不要大小眼。尤其是這一次山陀兒颱風過後，我們農業部公告的農業天然災害現金補助的部分，我們高屏地區是全品項，臺東縣目前只有達仁鄉、大武鄉、金峰鄉、太麻里鄉，也就是所謂南迴地區的特用作物，就是洛神花，有在做這個補助，我想這個落差實在太大了，這簡直是把臺東當第二等公民。","針對臺東災後的協助，本席有兩點要求，希望院長能夠表明態度。第一，針對臺東災後的農產損失、農地流失、機具損壞，中央必須擴大補助，而不是只有現在洛神花這個項目；針對臺東縣政府所提報災後重建的部分，中央也要盡力的提供經費，協助地方渡過難關。","第二，中央應該比照凱米颱風期間補助中南部縣市的專案，額外給予臺東縣災民每戶2萬元的補助金。另外，針對特殊身分加碼，讓災民能夠儘快的恢復日常生活，請問院長，這個部分是不是願意承諾來協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先向委員表示歉意，因為在一樣的時間，我們能走的就是有限的空間，所以總統也好、副院長也好、我也好，我們在上個禮拜六、禮拜天跑了一些地方，很抱歉的是上個禮拜我們有國慶各種外賓來訪等等，又有總質詢，我實在分身乏術，這點真的是抱歉。不過，委員放心，所有風災之後的補助標準，我們都照過去一樣的來執行，你剛剛講的最後那一點，是不是可以加兩萬，我們對淹水50米以上的都有這樣加，50米以下的我們也加5,000，我記得。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：地方政府的歸地方政府，中央會繼續補兩萬，這個都是有的，如果達到這個標準的話都有。農產品的部分，如果達到標準的風速，就可以開放成全品項補助，這個也是有的。還有，就是要不要現勘，總是要給補助單位一個依據，所以現在開發了app，只要照個相傳上去就可以，如果這個還有疑問，我會請農業部跟委員詳細說明。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長非常正面的答復，我想以上是颱風過後我們希望中央能夠立即來協助的部分。","接下來我想要再跟院長請教，就是針對今年0403強震之後，加上連續的颱風，造成花東地區的觀光產業一落千丈，在這一次經濟部公布最新的電價調整方案中，有看到中央協助花蓮的旅宿業者，這個部分本席非常贊同。院長，其實花東本是一體，政府在補助的過程裡面要雪中送炭，不是雪上加霜，如果花蓮受創，臺東也嚴重，這部分是不是請院長回去務必跟相關部會研議，臺東縣能夠比照花蓮，給予臺東的旅宿業者協助，幫助他們渡過難關。院長，畢竟臺東的產業非常單純，一個是農業，一個就是觀光，這部分院長是不是能夠允諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。原來如果不是颱風的因素，我也跟委員約好了要去臺東，了解臺東的產業、臺東各種農產以及臺東當地在0403之後，花蓮受到影響跟臺東受到影響的狀況，我們會全力來協助，花蓮有的，臺東就會有。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長，院長，本席可以當地陪，找莊委員當地陪也可以。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們一起。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝。接下來就輪到我們今天質詢的重點，就是教育的議題，我也請我們的鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請教育部長備詢。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席首先要為臺東的學子來請命，之前有一個新聞就是臺東高中的學生是穿著襪子在游泳池上游泳課，原因就是因為游泳池老舊，池底有石灰質沉澱，所以導致學生在游泳的時候腳都會劃傷，學校沒辦法，就是讓學生先穿襪子去上游泳課，這件事情其實在新聞也被報導過。另外就是臺東女中的紅土跑道操場損毀的問題，它不只損毀，還有包括坑道，每次東北季風來就是塵土飛揚，雨後還會積水，造成學生運動容易受傷。今年6月份本席在委員會質詢部長的時候，部長也答應要全力協助，這邊先謝謝部長。但就本席了解，目前兩間學校已經提報相關改善經費給教育部，分別是臺東高中游泳池的改善經費1,000萬元，臺東女中的操場改善經費是1,500萬元。請問部裡面什麼時候會通過核定？另外，是不是能夠全額補助？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，上一次有關游泳池穿襪子的問題，其實是學校整個濾水系統出了狀況，當時他們並沒有針對這個問題提出申請，所以感謝委員的提醒，部裡面國教署也請學校趕快再補送資料，我想我們應該會很快核定經費，我相信不管是體育署或者國教署，在專家審查以後，我們一定會立即把……"],["黃委員建賓：今年年底之前可不可以完成？已經開學了，今年可以處理嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想會後容我再進一步了解，不好意思。"],["黃委員建賓：拜託部長，小朋友已經開學了。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我們希望他們能夠有一個更安全、更友善的上課環境。"],["鄭部長英耀：提供一個更好的教學環境，我想那都是我們共同努力的方向。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，我會持續會跟教育部聯繫，趕快解決這些問題。","另外，我想再請教國科會，請國科會主委。"],["主席：麻煩請國科會主委備詢。"],["黃委員建賓：主委好，先前國科會表示今年我們要選定國家火箭發射場，可能坐落的位置是在臺東縣跟屏東縣，要從這兩個地方擇一。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我想要考慮到地理、物理環境的影響，也要有足夠的擴充性，最重要的是能夠跟當地政府來溝通，本席在此要幫臺東縣來爭取這個場址，原因有兩個：第一個就是發射場預定地的位置原本選定的是臺東縣達仁鄉的南田村，村長表示他非常樂意，村民也普遍能夠接受，認為可以帶動地方的觀光產業發展，當地的議員也認為這可以增加就業的機會，臺東縣政府也表示歡迎，這代表國發會未來如果選在這邊設置的話，與地方的溝通應該會很順利，後續的推動也是水到渠成；第二個建議的點就是在屏東縣，可是牡丹鄉先前已經有短期科研探空火箭發射場域，國科會這次選址可以考慮整個區域的平衡，讓兩個地方都能夠有這樣的機會來發展這個特殊產業，不單單是可以促進臺東環境的改善，最重要的是未來學生也有機會可以接觸這樣高科技的產業，這是本席要來幫臺東請命的原因，主委怎麼看？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝黃委員，目前兩個場址包含臺東縣的南田部落還有屏東縣的九鵬村，都符合我們基本條件設定的要求，現在兩個縣政府也都很積極的爭取，經過國科會審慎的規劃，我們的確是希望把未來國家火箭發射場址能夠經營成不是只有偶爾去發射火箭而已，希望它是一個教育的場址，也是一個能夠促進觀光的場址、促進地方發展的場址，相信未來這個規劃如果落實的話，對地方發展都有幫助。我們現在已經在進行跟原住民部落的溝通協調，將來也會搭配地方政府的用地取得、環境影響評估等等，希望能夠一起來努力。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，本席再次拉票，臺東縣是您選擇的一個好答案。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，主委先休息。接下來我想問一下部長，部長，教育部先前跟農業部共同推出「班班有鮮乳」政策，但許多縣市不同步，已經有些老師反映這個政策不管在保存或配送方面都會增加教育現場非常大的負擔。以臺東縣來說，如果要讓學童喝到鮮乳，第一個你要考慮的是交通成本，第二個是冷鏈的配送，第三個是冰箱保存，第四個是電費的支出，光是這四個部分就需要很龐大的經費，我想請教院長跟部長，這個經費是中央還是地方來出？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心這一個，我們怎麼樣讓兒童能夠有一個更好的成長環境，包括在營養上的支持、鈣跟蛋白質的補充，我想當時的起心動念就是希望能夠讓學童有更好的發展空間。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席補充，以整個臺東縣來說，我們有26所學校是申請鮮乳、91所學校是申請保久乳，不是因為大家比較喜歡喝保久乳，而是因為鮮乳的配送成本太高，臺東幅員又廣闊，雖然這個政策很好，可是有時候看得到喝不到，最重要的是這經費是誰要來協助，不能因為中央政策很好，中央請客，費用卻要地方來負擔。"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員指導，確實我們這一學期希望能夠透過實際的……，因為本來全臺灣已經有10個縣市，不管是結合營養午餐或者其他的時間，提供鮮奶的供給，那我們也希望，除了地方政府有一些趕快能夠下單，怎麼樣符合兒童能夠有鮮奶飲用，我們也期待跟地方縣市政府的合作，希望各校裡面確實老師有教學負擔，讓他們可以專心教學，怎麼樣就這些志工媽媽等等的……"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這個經費可以支持嗎？可以支持嗎？經費的部分，未來這些衍生的費用，中央能夠支持？"],["鄭部長英耀：這些經費基本上就是由中央支付。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。因為時間上的關係，不好意思我必須打斷你，我有很多問題要跟部長討論，包括接下來的，我現在要表達偏鄉公務人員跟老師的心聲，曾經有一部很有名的電影叫做「老師　你會不會回來」，這部片在講什麼？講偏鄉老師流動率的問題。部長、院長，你們知道現在臺東公教人員的加給是多少錢嗎？630塊，臺北到臺東的火車票將近八百塊，等於東臺一個月的加給還不夠買一張車票。在這樣的情況之下，加給的誘因這麼少，我們怎麼樣把老師留下來？沒有穩定的師資，怎麼樣發展教育？這個部分是不是請教育部未來能夠研議，在加給上能夠酌增？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正。確實我上來以後，我們感受到偏鄉的許多老師，怎麼樣讓老師夠更長久地留任在偏鄉，前任的潘部長也特別通過了這個，感謝各位委員的支持，這個久任獎金行政院也全力支持，在114年我們就會有一個久任獎金。另外，我們怎麼樣去考慮像花蓮、臺東的老師，讓師資培育包括他的任用能夠永續，我們也開始在規劃一些新的方案。"],["黃委員建賓：條件誘因還是要有，不能只靠熱忱，跟部長報告。","由於時間的關係，最後我有一件事情想請教卓院長。主委一直很關心的事情，就是關於我們的禁伐補償，當然這是院長的說法，我有兩個問題想請教院長，第一個，禁伐補償的原法就是每公頃3萬元，明定行政院要有這一筆支出，那如果院長說的，這樣子就是違憲的話，過去……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個沒有違憲。"],["黃委員建賓：好，第二點，院長說不能接受立法院修法逼行政院增加預算，現在行政院把3萬增加到4萬塊，請問院長是依照哪一條法律來增加的？這個問題帶給院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是衡酌現在的財政狀況和財政紀律。我希望，大院正在進行朝野協商，我期待、我也會努力讓它有一個好的發展。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長、謝謝部長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請登記第9號陳委員秀寳質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":179,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃珊珊","林楚茵","葛如鈞","林德福","鄭正鈐","林沛祥","麥玉珍","張嘉郡","范雲","謝衣鳯","莊瑞雄","黃建賓","陳秀寳","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅美玲","黃捷","張雅琳","李坤城","王美惠"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00003","1137801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137801_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}