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sorry一一四預算案我們是兩千九百二十八億對啊二九二八一一四嘛對預算案是二九二八嘛那一一三勒一一三是兩千八百二千八百六十二千八百六十億左右"},{"start":138.713,"end":154.185,"text":"這算會通過的嘛對不對?還是通過的?通過啦!不是啦不是啦!1億3他剩下的沒剩就叫做他剩暗嘛對不對?我現在跟妳因為我們一百十四年都還沒剩叫做他剩暗嘛你一百十三年他剩下的是多少?兩千八百多嘛是不是?是"},{"start":156.437,"end":184.514,"text":"兩千八百六十億啦委員抱歉因為我這邊只有法定預算一一三的就就就通過的嘛你先跟我講通過了嘛對不對一一三的部分是這樣子一一三通過是二八六零二八六零兩千八百六十那你怎麼可以好意思跟我講說一一九一定大過於多過於一一八一一三一一四還一一四怎麼大過於一一三一一四就還沒有審耶你怎麼有把握還沒審啦對啦還沒通過"},{"start":185.154,"end":188.675,"text":"部長來有沒有什麼新興的預算?我們其實沒有太多新興的預算很少所以增加了59億而已還沒有審查你怎麼知道會增加59億?我們預編"},{"start":211.724,"end":234.29,"text":"憲哥預編是對照113的預算嘛是不是這樣對不對我一直強調我原本就是要問是113的預算案嘛就還沒有審查的嘛我是要看新部長來是不是有對照以前的這個那個年代是不是有增加更多預算基本上是沒有嘛甚至於你還可能會比113更少不一定因為還沒有審查嘛因為有可能被審"},{"start":239.855,"end":258.252,"text":"新部長來當然要新氣象嘛那或許有你的思維你可能在勞工的權益上你希望可以再多增加的不一樣的但是還是要火力預計的預算以前沒有編那你現在來編是增加大概是多少"},{"start":258.919,"end":287.611,"text":"我們大概比較有那個是運營流停啦今天加急補助經費38億叫去年增加9700萬這個不是新興的啦這是增加嘛這是原有的預算去增加的嘛我是說新興的項目都沒有啦我上任以後我沒有自己去新興任何項目預算啦反正就是沒有就對了啦沒有就比較不用擔心啦如果有你就會有自然生嘛因為現在預算還卡住嘛"},{"start":288.391,"end":308.323,"text":"我的意思是這樣好了謝謝委員謝謝好我們現在回過頭來看這一個事情我們來追啦部長這個報導你看一下勞動部補助違法慣患勞團欲追回款項這個很清楚齁審計部的報告勞化署就按基金在去年公告15項計畫那補助共有11205家補助88968件"},{"start":314.827,"end":319.532,"text":"共計劃出16.3億在勞動部這15項計劃裡面除了充電再出發訓練計劃外及與計劃均規範事業單位違反勞動法令這個情節重大者將不予補助"},{"start":335.689,"end":353.128,"text":"這一計畫中勞動部或勞發署對於違反勞動法令勤解重大者的這個定義沒有明確沒有明確的說明清楚但我想一般的普羅大眾都應該非常知道如果有連續違反勞動法令的事業單位那基本上這個補助資格就應該要嚴審"},{"start":355.931,"end":383.768,"text":"他會被挑戰嘛齁即便他是小錯啦但是一錯再錯一換再換這個在新華上叫擂飯嘛那擂飯的時候有時候是要加重啟醒但我們勞動部卻加重補助是在鼓勵用人民的納稅金鼓勵他們違反勞動法令所以他們怎麼犯錯沒有得到問題甚至於甚至於還加碼"},{"start":385.612,"end":397.84,"text":"我要跟你們對照明細喔如果有這件事情部長你要怎麼處理這是第一件事情那第二件事情在審計部的資料就按基金補助的事業單位中有112家已經領了將近4千萬但112家卻是從109年到111年連續3年都有違反勞動法令的紀錄"},{"start":409.183,"end":415.744,"text":"同年在111年一年內違反勞動法令三次的以上事業單位就有200家那其中5家達10次以上他們仍然還可以領到將近4898將近5000萬這些累換的事業單位將近8成在112年還在持續的違反勞動法令"},{"start":438.584,"end":466.867,"text":"部長應該很清楚嘛所以我剛剛才會講那句話說我們是拿人民大稅錢在鼓勵他們就持續做這些違反勞動法令的事情這跟我獨立現在檢討這件事要檢討這些事情是這樣嘛部長勞動部列出這些計畫這15項其中很多是針對中高齡再就業計畫這個我們都非常支持的啊對不對然後因為我們要邁入到超高齡嘛這總統一直在講嘛勞動部鼓勵壯士代再度投入職場"},{"start":468.268,"end":482.409,"text":"那我想在市場上的這個環境我們要嚴格把關不是又再再三有這種違反勞動法規的事業單位他們這樣叫做壯世代嗎?他們適合壯世代嗎?然後報導中老化署這樣回覆喔"},{"start":484,"end":500.314,"text":"勞動法令多處罰類型不一各分署審查時會注意違反勞動法令情況至於是否要定一定期限內違反次數或金額高於多少以上就不予補助能待後續討論這樣對不對"},{"start":508.929,"end":524.818,"text":"我們來檢討一個月內好不好不然就會像我講的嘛對不對我們就變相在鼓勵阿然後再來我不需要邀請部長啦違反的情節規定以及鼓勵的改善措施通通一個月內啦請部長馬上裁釋吧"},{"start":527.661,"end":539.939,"text":"一個月內當然當然好謝謝那接下來部長再看一下時間到齁這個是攸關勞工生命攸關人命的事情部長可以看這近5年來的重大旨在死亡"},{"start":541.4,"end":561.08,"text":"108到112平均差不多300人走位那營建數各位部長也可以再看一下108就168109145101371115612151差不多照著重大持災營建業已經就占了一半了部長再往下看"},{"start":562.962,"end":563.202,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":577.452,"end":600.817,"text":"倒塌崩塌就佔了半數以上了然後再往下一張就108年到112年墜落掉落的就是佔了將近佔比差不多50%了就48 49嘛從沒50%就一半了如果剛剛那個另外的那個加起來已經超過一半了這個如果部長"},{"start":601.957,"end":622.858,"text":"你可以有自愧的然後有魄力的去處理我們把這樣的一個會發生的因素把它降下來我們或許明年我們就可以很大聲講說勞工職災重大死亡我們可以把它壓到200人以下"},{"start":625.325,"end":644.449,"text":"就這個部分我們積極的看怎麼樣去預防怎麼去處理真的是有機會的啊你看他可以站一半嘛對不對 三八個他就站一半阿什麼藥 人間藥 人間藥阿什麼錢 什麼錢 土地希望就跌下去了嘛 塞下去嘛阿跟這跌下去跟塞下去我們讓這麼多勞工因為這樣在他的職場裡面喪失生命"},{"start":652.881,"end":677.713,"text":"沒有道理啊!沒有道理嘛!對不對?這場事件還算好嘛對不對?怎麼沒辦法來做在整個職場上的一個更積極的一個管理讓這樣的憾事不要發生我相信這些營建業他也不希望發生這種事情嘛但是他就是讓這樣的事情持續發生然後讓這樣的比例就是這麼高"},{"start":681.058,"end":699.432,"text":"那就很奇怪了啊我還要另外再講一句話那我們政府何嘗不是一樣怎麼讓這個數據維持這5年這是平均最弱掉落就是在50%我們政府怎麼讓營建業在死亡人數300人他們的占比就是占了一半以上"},{"start":700.871,"end":726.421,"text":"委員我們就是發現這個問題所以我們今天為什麼說要最後打擊最後打擊我們希望在執行過程中事業單位都要負起他管理的責任那因為管理責任我們看來目前是有點落差所以我們也希望要修治安法把這個管理責任更落實現場的隨時的監察視察巡查把最後風險控制完降落就會降低了"},{"start":727.461,"end":751.178,"text":"委員這事實在是全產業的我們營商業的墜落死亡比例是高達六成我們是非常痛心這個事情所以我們今年最後打擊年雖然剛才委員主席說是沒有辦法降到我們降百分之三十的標準但是我們會持續努力包括法規的制度跟營建署的合作就是國土署的合作如何把這個更有效做營建管理我想這是我們的關鍵了也謝謝委員今天是給我們的那個"},{"start":752.459,"end":775.079,"text":"因為剛剛我有聽到委員跟你吹詢嘛但是我覺得你那個墜落打擊就是破功了嘛對不對坦白講就這樣嘛但是部長你不能破功嘛啊我剛才跟你講說你看營建類你跟我講到六成喔對不對啊我相信營建類也不希望會發生這種事情嘛對啊啊不會發生這種事情啊為什麼持續讓它發生嘛然後比例又這麼高嘛"},{"start":775.98,"end":789.446,"text":"從人性的角度我們知道它不相發生 它就直接又發生 所以政府怎麼可以讓它也一樣跟這些業者一樣的處理方式 那就不對啊 對不對 所以我是覺得這邊阿記來 坦白講 我不覺得很大的困難耶"},{"start":795.41,"end":797.053,"text":"但是如果你連續5年都當這樣的數據維持這樣那是真的這是很嚴重的問題了"},{"start":808.064,"end":808.084,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":826.196,"end":848.831,"text":"老建這這營建工地的這樣子檢查我想我們還有要努力的空間對我想從什麼加嚴相關標準啊還是提高法管額度啦還是強化承攬管理責任啊什麼新增了這個雲童管理的花子大大大這個大家都會講了但是到底到底你們去執行落實的情況是怎麼樣不然怎麼還有這麼多的生命因為這樣不見了"},{"start":851.158,"end":851.719,"text":"我們預備校會期送進立院"},{"start":864.301,"end":885.341,"text":"我還是請部長可以趕一下啦齁然後這個要我覺得這一塊如果趕快可以補起來我們就有效控制在就壓低到200人以下只要這一塊處理好我們來加快速度謝謝委員然後對於現在現金要去緩緩如何改善勞工在職場上墜落啦掉落的"},{"start":886.042,"end":887.724,"text":"是不是有一個報告可以給我們做參考?好 謝謝劉建國委員發言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:18:57 - 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time的陳永康委員然後羅美玲委員"},{"start":1866.034,"end":1887.123,"text":"本委員會的新同學再補充說明一下根據情報法還有我們委員會在前幾屆通過的決議有關情報工作人員基於保護跟保密跟國家利益所以我們通常是主"},{"start":1887.883,"end":1909.812,"text":"關管的名字會揭露相關業務的主管就不像其他部會到組長到什麼名字都會揭露這是基於法律跟國家利益的要求好我們今天列席的官員有國家安全局局長蔡明彥國防部縣指部指揮官鄭真祥資通電軍指揮官簡華慶"},{"start":1918.783,"end":1944.911,"text":"政治專案局局長陳玉玲電展室主任郭志國軍情局的部分楊敬澀中將今天有重要公務他事前已經跟本席請假也已獲准我們今天由軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁"},{"start":1945.973,"end":1950.736,"text":"軍安總隊總隊長汪世偉海委會海巡署署長張忠榮巡防組組長廖雲紅情報組代理組長吳信芬特別行動支援中心主任林天佑"},{"start":1977.225,"end":2000.373,"text":"內政部警政署署長張榮鑫行事警察局局長周祐偉保安組組長林溫柔防治組組長陳百祿內政部移民署署長鍾景坤"},{"start":2004.471,"end":2024.024,"text":"國際及執法事務組組長張文秀移民署入出國事務組組長林怡俊法務部調查局局長陳百利國家安全維護處處長葉立欽國內安全調查處處長陳宇源"},{"start":2033.206,"end":2059.791,"text":"保防處處長許明佑支通安全處副處長鄭建行好今天是我們國安局依我們國家情報法率領所有情報情緒單位首長出席工作業務報告那本日邀請國安局局長率領相關情報機關首長提出"},{"start":2061.751,"end":2088.029,"text":"國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告．並備質詢報告區分為公開及機密兩個部分先公開後機密那報告後接續詢答詢答先秘密後公開那今天沒有人登記機密詢答但是因為有機密公開共用時間所以我們要先宣告我們質詢的時間本會委員8加2分鐘"},{"start":2091.471,"end":2109.662,"text":"非本會委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案請在10點半之前提出11點左右本席會試詢答的情形進行處理現在我們請國安局局長蔡局長上台就公開部分進行報告"},{"start":2121.764,"end":2145.785,"text":"好謝謝主席主席各位委員各位女士各位先生那今天非常榮幸協同我們國安團隊的首長以及本局相關幹部跟委員會來提報下半年國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告以下僅就國家安全情勢分析以及未來的工作重點方向跟各位委員進行提報首先在國家安全情勢分析的部分第一區域戰事陷入長期的消耗歐日戰爭到現在已經有兩年的時間"},{"start":2147.506,"end":2171.064,"text":"雖然烏軍攻奪了俄國部分的領土但是沒有辦法全面的來牽制俄軍在烏東的一個攻勢所以雙方到目前沒有看到任何的停戰的跡象那可能雙方也都在準備因應長期的消耗戰爭那另外在以哈戰事的部分到現在已經屆滿了一年那國際社會雖然積極的來協調停火的協議但是在過程當中以色列持續的跟黎巴嫩的爭主黨"},{"start":2171.664,"end":2192.705,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":2192.785,"end":2196.949,"text":"在歐中關係的部分可以看到雙方的經貿摩擦不斷的升高特別是歐盟決定對中共的電動車來加徵反補貼的關稅"},{"start":2217.908,"end":2245.219,"text":"為了能夠來加強對美歐的分化的工作也不斷地來加大誘拉歐盟的成員以及極右力的勢力希望能夠來影響美歐以及歐盟內部團結抗中的一個立場中共加強侵略南方國家中共利用各種的主場外交跟多邊的機制強化跟全球南方國家的關係以便來後質跟美國以及其他西方國家競逐的一個籌碼美國、歐洲跟日本還有印度也都警覺到"},{"start":2245.839,"end":2245.859,"text":"第4"},{"start":2261.468,"end":2282.353,"text":"中共內部的社經問題升高矛盾難減中共為了緩解信心的危機在7月的時候召開了20屆三中的全會也通過了習近平第二份的改革文件但是中共內部我們可以看到青年的失業率居高不下同時房地產的景氣還是非常的低迷造成民眾擔憂到中共未來的經濟的前景"},{"start":2283.433,"end":2304.855,"text":"我們看到的是悲觀的情緒不斷的在升高當中第5是中共的山海擴權引發了國際的反制習近平在今年以來要求共軍在台海東海以及南海能夠來形塑強勢維權的一個立場在台海方面我們看到共軍整屆沿海的機場並且在今年的5月以及今年的10月分別來"},{"start":2306.076,"end":2334.107,"text":"舉行所謂的聯合力艦A跟聯合力艦B的演習來展現他們對外軍事的威懾力在東海的部分我們也看到中共的偵察機首次侵入到日本的領空另外遼寧航艦的編隊也穿越到日本的羽西水大加強共軍在第一島鏈相關的戰場的經營在南海部分我們也看到中共對於菲律賓的運輸機海警船進行強勢的維權也增加了情勢誤判的風險"},{"start":2335.447,"end":2351.92,"text":"第2中共持續的對台灣來進行複合式的脅迫在軍事上我們看到520之後中共舉行聯合立建2024A跟B的軍演增強對台的文攻武嚇在經貿上也取消了各種的關稅減讓的項目在外交上則擴大宣傳國際一中的論述試圖來壓縮我國的國際空間在法律上"},{"start":2357.824,"end":2361.588,"text":"在統戰上中共持續的來邀訪我們的基層青年到對岸來訪問推動各種的地方的交流包括中共的意識形態來混淆國人的認知"},{"start":2376.181,"end":2401.443,"text":"中共也持續擴大對我們的網路威脅還有偵訊的操作那中共透過各種的網路的侵害活動來鎖定我們的政府機關高科技園區以及能源交通等等民生相關的領域進行侵害竊密或是癱瘓破壞對我們的網路安全形成非常大的一個挑戰在偵訊操作的部分我們看到中共加強運用網路的水軍"},{"start":2401.983,"end":2431.102,"text":"一場帳號跟AI的技術對我們來遂行認知作戰炒作證訊加深政府民眾對於政府的不滿的情緒第二大部分是有關於未來的工作的重點以下提報幾個主要的努力的方向第一我們會廣拓情報收眼的量能機先應處國際的變局那本局會持續的來強化跟各個我們國內的國安團隊還有國際的友方勤嚴的交流協助我們政府可來應處各種的國內跟國外的安全威脅還有挑戰"},{"start":2432.003,"end":2448.564,"text":"第二我們會持續的來強化不收的能量即使的來統合反制跟應處那本局會結合到我們國際合作友方工作優勢還有能量那來加強收嚴中共黨政軍重要決策以及對我的謀略威脅"},{"start":2451.027,"end":2479.754,"text":"第3我們會支援各種的國安案件的徵處注入專案工作部署那本局會加強來支援各類國安案件事證的收整跟查查以便來防範中共滲透破壞跟確保我們國內的社會的安定第4我們會持續的來加強治安的防護確保侵傳鏈路的安全那本局會積極的來掌搜中共實體跟虛擬空間威脅的樣態確保政府機關侵傳作業的安全環境第5我們會後職"},{"start":2481.094,"end":2505.013,"text":"徵訊防制的量能維護輿論場域的純淨本局會持續的來統合我們的國安單位針對徵訊預警的情資採取急報、急搜的原則提供權責單位來參考應處最後結語面對國內外安全情勢快速的變化國安團隊會靈活的來調整我們的情搜部署以機先掌握戰略預警情資的原則加強我們的國際情報合作及時"},{"start":2506.955,"end":2516.526,"text":"來建立我們的國際戰略情報合作網．以便來守護我們的國家安全還有利益以上的報告也敬請委員會各位委員先進 持續給我們指導支持跟協助謝謝"},{"start":2522.112,"end":2539.212,"text":"公開報告結束接下來我們要進行秘密會議進行機密報告我們要進行清場請各位先不要動聽我說因為今天出席人數比較多清場的部分我們待會是從前門出去後門回來將會比較順暢上一次因為"},{"start":2542.015,"end":2552.341,"text":"這個有人從後門出後門進就整個塞在那裡我再講一次我們今天人數比較多待會各位移動的時候請求前門出場參與秘密會議人員由後門經過偵測檢查後進入這樣動線會比較順現在請醫生員清場沒有機密診的人就可以請他離席"},{"start":3737.964,"end":3763.064,"text":"好,我們現在進行登記公開質詢委員開始詢答首先請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席,有請國安局蔡局長來,局長請好,謝謝主席,羅委員長"},{"start":3765.246,"end":3784.095,"text":"局長中國在這個10月14號禮拜一的時候舉行了聯合歷屆2024B的軍演那中國說他這個是因為針對賴清德總統的雙十演說而來那我記得在上個會期的時候本席跟蔡局長其實我們有討論到這個2024這一個一系列的這個軍演的這個活動所以其實"},{"start":3791.319,"end":3810.891,"text":"其實之前在520的時候有2024A那再來現在雙十有2024B我其實在想未來可能還有CDE一系列的這個軍演的這個活動也就是說這本來就是他們早就已經規劃好的這個軍演只是說就看看說在台灣"},{"start":3811.952,"end":3824.744,"text":"有哪一個總統也好或是政治人物也好講了那些他們不中聽的一些話他就來軍演一次其實這本來就是他們規劃當中的軍演這部分我們其實在四個會期就已經"},{"start":3829.549,"end":3841.705,"text":"討論過只是說他什麼時候要來軍演好那再來那這軍演呢13個小時就結束了那甚至地方上有一些婆婆媽媽還說我的東西都還沒看好我財還沒看好肝臟還沒看好都已經結束了"},{"start":3846.191,"end":3863.585,"text":"甚至還有人在想說就這樣其實我們覺得這是一個很不好的一個現象你看像我這個剪刀上面有一個圖我本來剛開始看到這個圖的時候我一直以為這是網友哭笑出來的圖雖然沒有想到是中國海警"},{"start":3864.386,"end":3877.658,"text":"他們繪製出來的就說我們這包圍是用這個愛心海派的甜心來包圍台灣巡航就是愛你的這個形狀這個是鬆懈台灣民眾的心嗎這個部分這麼嚴肅的經驗可以弄出這樣子的一個圖局長您怎麼看"},{"start":3881.782,"end":3898.455,"text":"這部分也跟委員做了報告這一次中共軍演的一個特色我剛在進來會場之前也跟各位媒體朋友做說明了他的演習時間是比較短的畫社的演習的區域也比較小但是他動員的兵力特別在空中兵力動員的強度有比較高一點"},{"start":3900.356,"end":3925.2,"text":"在整個演習過程當中我們除了去注意中共的軍事動態以外也花很多時間在映出各種的爭議訊息包括網路上流傳的各種的圖卡或是錯誤的資訊或是影音的這種散布那我們剛剛所提到的就是中共的海警也在演習過程當中有釋放這樣的訊息認為說這是一個愛的擁抱那是在關心台灣但事實上"},{"start":3925.66,"end":3949.889,"text":"在演習過程當中中共除了派出有那個海上的海軍的船艦以外也派出海警船這次有16艘的海警船加上一艘的海巡船跟一艘的海調船總共18艘那在台海周邊沒有進入到我們24海里的以外的水域在那邊巡弋那所以海警才會有這樣的一個圖卡認為說他們有在周邊來進行相關的活動"},{"start":3951.069,"end":3980.189,"text":"可是他們這種表現的這個表示的這個方式其實是會真的是會鬆懈國人的這個警戒心因為大家覺得說也沒什麼嘛像剛剛局長所提到的他的部署啊等等國人好像對這個好像沒有那麼的在意然後只知道說那天早上可能就是有一個軍演那到了傍晚6點好像下班式的就結束了大家就會認為說就沒有什麼樣會不會變成說以後會變成有一種"},{"start":3985.752,"end":3998.439,"text":"因為我們有看到這個吳俄戰爭開戰以前俄羅斯也是一樣他用軍演的方式然後就說他們要做軍演然後做了很多的部署突然間哪一天就宣戰了"},{"start":3999.58,"end":4027.907,"text":"我們會不會面臨這種局面因為現在國人看起來好像對這個軍演是沒有感覺的這其實是一個非常可怕的一個心態事實上我們確實要謝謝委員的提醒那因為對於中共對台的一個脅迫我們一定要料底寵寬那除了看這個軍演從兩岸關係的角度來看以外有另外一個更重要的角度是中共的區域軍事戰略因為中共他有整體性希望變成是區域強權的一個政治目標要去追求"},{"start":4028.467,"end":4028.707,"text":"中共的航母"},{"start":4043.644,"end":4059.824,"text":"蔡明彥的編隊也進入到第一次進入到日本的雨溪水域來展示他的軍威南海部分跟越南跟菲律賓的摩擦也不斷地在升高台海部分就像委員剛一開始所提到的運用各種的理由把常態性的軍演再包裝再擴大來對台灣施壓"},{"start":4060.945,"end":4089.847,"text":"他的理由有可能是我們國內相關政情發展的動態也有可能是外國對台灣表達高度的支持或來訪或是通過法案那中共也會動用這種軍演來對台灣施壓那找各種理由來進行練兵練兵過程當中他們也在檢視各種的武力擴張跟犯台的預案以便作為後續修正相關方案的一個參儲所以我覺得確實我們對這樣的一個共軍常態性的軍演絕對不能夠掉以輕心要持續的來命中"},{"start":4091.127,"end":4118.205,"text":"除了對這個軍演不能夠掉以輕心之外我們也怕哪一天是擦槍走火那再來更加需要我們國人更加注意的就是所謂的深層式的這個AI但今年的8月份澳洲有一個網路安全公司Cyber CX他有發表了一個報告就是說他們發現了跟中國有關的一個虛擬的這個網站他大概有500"},{"start":4119.225,"end":4146.576,"text":"五千到八千個的虛假帳號組成了一個資訊站的網絡請問國安局對這個訊息有沒有掌握有 這個訊息有沒有掌握我們特別提到這家公司應該是在今年的年初成立的我們注意到大概在今年的七月份它就開始很積極地在網絡上透過各種虛擬帳號來進行各種AI生成的假訊息的內容的散佈或是影音的散佈"},{"start":4147.577,"end":4167.658,"text":"國外也有一些機構已經資安公司的機構已經注意到這個趨勢所以才會對外的釋放這個訊息那對於這種網路上中共所進行的這種認知作戰只要有這樣的訊息來源的話我們都會進行必要的來源的查找那目前為止有很多查找到的IP都是位在台灣境外"},{"start":4168.078,"end":4195.511,"text":"所以這也是我們在查處上會比較困難的地方不過也謝謝委員讓我們用這個機會來跟國人做個說明知道在辨識這種錯假訊息的過程當中應該要更慎重不要隨便來接收這些錯誤的訊息是 局長我也請教一下像過去我們對虛假訊息我們都是用移組的方式像這種AI機器人資訊戰網絡我們要如何去做反制我們有沒有能力去做反制有"},{"start":4195.931,"end":4209.927,"text":"我大概有兩個主要的做法一個部分是剛剛所提到的就是把它揭露出來那畢竟它主要想要影響的受眾就是我們一般的民眾那假如民眾的媒體試圖能力能夠提升的話自然就不會比較受到這些錯假訊息的影響"},{"start":4210.928,"end":4230.729,"text":"第二部分呢在針對這些錯假訊息的部分那我們剛才提到了怎麼樣去來查找他的相關的一個散佈的一個來源那假如說他是用AI生成的相關的錯假訊息或影音的話我們也會跟社群媒體的營運的公司來跟他做檢舉"},{"start":4231.61,"end":4257.875,"text":"那因為就營運公司他們有一些網路規範的一些規定那我們來證明說他是所謂錯假訊息有違法的行為或是他是用AI生成的話那這個很大部分都會違反相關那個社群媒體經營的規則而會把它下架下來所以我們特別在像今年剛提到二合一大選以及到現在的期間已經做過非常非常多這樣的檢舉來下架這些有問題的影音"},{"start":4261.216,"end":4283.854,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘剛剛我們局長所提到的我們都是說經過散佈這些深層式AI過去都是散佈虛假的訊息或是透過這個深微deepfake然後來達到這個認知作戰跟界限的這個目的可是有沒有想過這些深層式的AI可能會對於我國的基礎建設造成非常嚴重的這個破壞有沒有想到這個"},{"start":4287.017,"end":4296.548,"text":"有,因為AI有說它可以去自動生成一些病毒的程式對,它會自動升級、自動化的編寫這個程式對,所以會侵入到這個國家的基礎建設造成一些基礎建設的破壞,這有可能嗎?"},{"start":4303.997,"end":4308.141,"text":"對,可能性存在單單只是傳播假訊息然後身為這樣子這麼簡單而以後越來越複雜對不對這個國安局這邊呢我們有沒有想說要成立底下成立一個國安單位那個AI的安全單位之類的有沒有"},{"start":4320.171,"end":4320.371,"text":"時間到了謝謝局長謝謝主席"},{"start":4344.673,"end":4353.357,"text":"這個題目我們改天會排專報因為這個是一個問題到底有沒有辦法應處接下來進行詢答的委員是陳永康委員"},{"start":4371.53,"end":4375.918,"text":"好主席有請國安局局長請好謝謝主席陳委員長"},{"start":4385.16,"end":4411.238,"text":"局長早大家都關心這兩天就是歷屆的是前面的委員也提了既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時其實就局裡面的研究來講反推起碼13天前就已經掌握有些趨勢發展了因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際的情勢那我這邊先做一個建言"},{"start":4413.402,"end":4424.855,"text":"對於俄烏戰爭因為那個復原廣大對於烏東的狀況即便攻勤裡面大家對台海跟烏克蘭的狀況的比較沒有概念烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.725"},{"start":4432.506,"end":4454.458,"text":"那麼人口是4300萬比2300萬但是呢人口的密度跟個人的耗電啊那台灣超過他太多所以這個case在比照這個加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢我們建議以後做報告的時候在封底附一張蓋圖"},{"start":4456.179,"end":4472.455,"text":"好那能夠說明因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這個裡面都了解我舉例來講像最近像在東海比方講這個環繞軍演對日本方面的也在觀測比方來講大家都在講宮古島"},{"start":4474.036,"end":4477.678,"text":"中共跟菲律賓啊或者是越南在南海的比方講黃岩島、仁愛礁"},{"start":4491.709,"end":4493.49,"text":"蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出"},{"start":4515.145,"end":4526.247,"text":"因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正的影響到國際民航跟海上航行那這個圖呢就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖我們再看下一張圖"},{"start":4528.575,"end":4542.639,"text":"這個就把三次演習的圖套疊底圖是中共發布的我們把它倒疊出來去看出這個位置有沒有偏差這個圖已經偏離開了這張圖就是演習完了我們國防部在報載上公開的這個圖"},{"start":4552.381,"end":4578.629,"text":"但這些資料呢他的互動關係呢不是用統計數字單獨來判我們再看到下一張這個下面的圖各位就看到了遼寧號這是日本公布的我們當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握也就是說這個遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角但是他的兵力投射的範圍可是已經深進來我們的電視主任在這邊"},{"start":4583.317,"end":4599.345,"text":"對 殲15 殲載機有出來是 電纜是有許多的情資來源我們在這邊不提但是他掌握的位置能不能跟我們對外面公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較那對於我們高階的長官做判斷就"},{"start":4602.167,"end":4626.877,"text":"這張圖上很明顯的就是韓國的防空示威區日本防空示威區中共的東海防空示威區我們防空示威區菲律賓的都框出來如果你關係周遭的情勢你必須有一個涵蓋大範圍的圖讓我們的高階的長官能夠了解而不是僅是聚焦在台海周邊的那個狹義的圖像這個圖各位看我們有一個大範圍的"},{"start":4628.856,"end":4655.15,"text":"衛星的圖再套上航圖海圖經過校正的所以臨近國家的防空示威區臨海空域基線都做了個套別最後呢再把中共這次演習的這個圖套上去這樣子對長官的判斷尤其是在做決策過程中的時候他的格局放大但是呢細緻的圖基礎資料也可以提供他做一個正確判斷的參考"},{"start":4656.801,"end":4678.851,"text":"最後這次例件我們還是用一個方法論就原則上面不設限沒有禁航區沒有影響國際航道不動手沒有實彈射擊或是海上臨檢它的統戰策略灰色地帶軍事行動隔離封鎖與武攻台三項行動常態化不定期穿插聯動並把台灣周邊的海域內海化"},{"start":4679.531,"end":4694.581,"text":"作為法律戰的一個有效支撐那麼現階段我們可以看出來的東部戰區不管他的東海的艦隊呀空軍火箭軍海警他一個同調式的做我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化的聯合作戰已經變成常態就剛才吳寧的報導中間出來"},{"start":4699.884,"end":4709.335,"text":"他證明的是一個是反制國際的介入第二個他跟國際輿論戰他要用法律戰的角色來做對抗雖然時間13小時但是剛剛講了準備絕對不止13天"},{"start":4716.524,"end":4730.781,"text":"這個結論就是說做一個建議就是說在會局裡面內部有非常詳盡的源頭或者是不管是從工情有對我有幫分析完了但是我們在上層到決策過程中間我建議是要有一個共同圖像"},{"start":4731.442,"end":4746.459,"text":"．．"},{"start":4747.62,"end":4768.882,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導來提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習的區域還有它軍事的意涵不只是對台灣的軍事意涵而是對整體區域的軍事意涵可以有一個綜合的研判這是第一點那第二點也確實如委員所說的我們在中共演習之前的很長的時間大概在預判上就預判"},{"start":4770.043,"end":4795.03,"text":"政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分"},{"start":4795.65,"end":4813.092,"text":"跟委員報告也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資能夠圖示化所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會有個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的所以這代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的運營的一個備案"},{"start":4814.473,"end":4841.864,"text":"提供給我們做參考對謝謝局長因為這個電纜室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機制我們大家有聯繫因為電纜室做的東西是非常低調不對外講的是那實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公勤做相對的輔助做查證那我們盡量希望大家的報告以公勤公開的來討論那閉門的秘密會議裡面東西我們就不去"},{"start":4843.405,"end":4869.964,"text":"最後的建議就是說希望這個國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作這樣子在重要會議中間的那個大圖小圖我們可以套疊七八成從不同的來源顯示不同的時間不同的位置不同的動態不同的行動最後一紙回溯我們可以預推我們要降低風險掌握狀況這個提供局長做參考"},{"start":4870.424,"end":4872.965,"text":"好謝謝陳永康委員接下來進行詢答委員是林楚瑩委員謝謝主席主席邀請蔡局長來 局長請"},{"start":4900.984,"end":4929.33,"text":"好 謝謝主席 林委員長主席早安 局長早安剛剛羅美玲委員已經有特別針對在面對中國的軍演所引發的一些後續的觀察跟效應我想其實不只是中國對我們施以這個所謂武嚇文攻的部分其實同時也在測驗台灣的心戰跟認知作戰我不知道這個局長你同不同意這個說法是"},{"start":4929.77,"end":4946.658,"text":"我剛剛也跟媒體朋友在講就是我們這次的演習花很多時間在掌握中共的基建動態以外其他的時間都在因應所謂的認知作戰對可能認知作戰的部分我先舉兩個例子第一個是我們都知道中國其實是不能開YouTube的"},{"start":4947.398,"end":4963.861,"text":"但是他居然在一個叫做中興網直播整個聯合歷屆2024B的過程這個其實是給全世界看包括台灣看尤其是他還說反對台獨分裂勢力那這個說法其實都是衝著台灣來"},{"start":4964.642,"end":4983.98,"text":"另外就是後來到了稍晚之後PTT上面開始出現洗版的假訊息說我們的天然氣船兩次進不了台灣像這種混合式的認知作戰或者是心理戰喔那麼國安局的掌握狀況如何那麼我們第一時間如何來處理因為我們當然知道後來中郵是發了這個澄清稿"},{"start":4988.044,"end":5001.982,"text":"那像這樣的過程當中是他們自己發現了還是說事實上在面對這種更多的混合型的認知作戰或是心理戰我們如何來部署來第一時間做因應因為心防的崩潰其實更可怕"},{"start":5003.454,"end":5023.216,"text":"對 因為剛剛也跟那個陳永浩有做說明了事實上對於中共的軍連我們在之前都有做一些部署那這部署除了去徵收中共的軍事動態以外另外網路上的假訊息也是我們在這段期間特別警戒的重點另外還有就是資安的攻擊所以這是一個全面配套政府之間的一個聯防的機制"},{"start":5023.757,"end":5046.813,"text":"那一旦在網路上出現委員剛所講到的這樣的假訊息的話：我們馬上啟動我們的機制來進行溯源的查找那也跟委員報告我們查找的結果這是一家中國的網路公司所釋放的那這家網路公司在美國在廣州上海都有他的分公司那比對之後發現他用不斷變更IP的方式來散布這一類的假訊息"},{"start":5047.233,"end":5061.003,"text":"所以第一時間通報到各單位來應酬包括到經濟部以及包括到調查局都針對這個個案來進行一些新聞的說明跟釋出來讓民眾不要受到假信息的影響好 謝謝因為我覺得第一時間"},{"start":5062.624,"end":5079.941,"text":"來回應應對甚至於避免明星的恐慌這是更重要的但更重要的是也希望這樣的事情當他們反走過必留下痕跡即使不斷的透過跳板但是我相信現在的科技是可以日新月異來有助於相關的單位來抓住這些源頭"},{"start":5080.762,"end":5090.89,"text":"那麼以只有斷元的方式才有機會去降低這種所謂對台的心理戰或認知作戰那麼這是予以肯定那至於有關於這個主席已經講了未來AI怎麼打炸的部分會有專報那我就不問了但是我要問的是一個"},{"start":5095.874,"end":5115.728,"text":"可能對於國安會有另外一個新已經存在在台灣要面對的狀況就是中國的電動車是不是成為新的木馬這個之前其實我有說過了那我在大院質詢卓榮泰院長跟經濟部長的時候我都有提到那就是中國的電動車現在全球都被視為包括美國"},{"start":5116.488,"end":5143.661,"text":"甚至於他是用關稅的方式因為中國的低價傾銷策略會導致中國的電動車變得非常有競爭力但是本席現在發現的是說在我們的地方政府當中中國的電動車用一個什麼方式比亞迪我想這是中國的平台大家都知道但是他透過一個席產地的攻略直接進軍到我們的公車地方政府的公車以及可不可能就是我們各個"},{"start":5144.781,"end":5164.491,"text":"中央跟地方政府的公務車因為他中國用補貼電動車的方式他合作台灣的代理商搖身一變居然變成台灣車然後呢他用租賃公司的方式來進行低價投標我們知道我們很多的中央政府的標案是用什麼方式都是用價格標"},{"start":5166.152,"end":5183.443,"text":"我想這個不用多說在美國或是其他國家現在嚴防的就是中國電動車的傾銷那麼如果說今天我們的各單位在標案上面一樣是價格標然後又讓中國車用洗產地的方式就是直接"},{"start":5184.404,"end":5207.705,"text":"先化整為零然後跟中國中國找到台灣的代理商然後在台灣境內做一個組裝搖身變成台灣車這樣的問題我認為國安單位必須要重視因為他不只是跟國安有關他跟工程會在標案的設計上面還有經濟部以及各級地方政府那麼我們都知道電動車"},{"start":5209.807,"end":5233.192,"text":"他如果在台灣滿街跑那麼這個所謂的聯網型的車輛在台灣就有可能成為間諜工具成為攻擊的工具那現在這個狀況他其實已經存在了本需查過了中央跟地方的標案在滿街上面的公車又或者是載著我們的各級包括我們立法委員各級的"},{"start":5234.355,"end":5256.423,"text":"先是首長或者是部會首長的公務車那麼怎麼來因應跟應處這個問題國安局有沒有注意到有注意到這個應該已經是歐美國家非常重視的一個議題特別是美國商務部在上個月也公佈一個非常完整有關中國聯網車可能的治安風險那這包括到可能相關車輛會把"},{"start":5258.704,"end":5262.406,"text":"我們已經有把資訊跟經濟部做報告跟分享"},{"start":5285.2,"end":5302.567,"text":"第二部分是委員所提到的這種電動車會不會在臺灣藉口來低價進入到各級政府機關的那個汽車電動車的採購標案那這部分我們再來特別注意特別有沒有哪些個案那有這樣的狀況的話我們來啟動我們的機制來進行查查"},{"start":5304.448,"end":5327.804,"text":"好本期會查到的就是說現在因為低價的電動車我查的一台可能比如說以公車或公務車來講如果它的價格低於其他國家所生產的電動車的時候那就像我剛剛提到的我們在政府採購的時候常常都是價格標嘛低價者得那麼中國的這種補助的時候它可能就會造成是其他的"},{"start":5328.824,"end":5340.456,"text":"國家或者是其他非中國品牌就相對的沒有競爭力那像這個部分的話有沒有可能有國安單位來做一個統合的單位或者是發起其他的會議包括您說這個報告已經給經濟部了什麼時候給經濟部的"},{"start":5344.62,"end":5362.828,"text":"9月22左右我都印象沒記錯9月的時候就已經給了當時我注意到美國的報告我就非常重視特別請你負責資安的部門把它做一個完整的分析提供給經濟部因為畢竟這部分的業管是全責是在經濟部會那國安局有這樣的情資或有這樣的風險的預判我們就給業管單位來參儲"},{"start":5365.569,"end":5380.346,"text":"好所以另外一個本席提供的數字這個其實也是已經都是公開的資訊就是如果說以國產車來講我們國產車有許多中國的零件不知道你給經濟部的報告當中是不是也有這個部分那就是我們的公務車裡頭他"},{"start":5381.807,"end":5409.514,"text":"如果不是中國的品牌它也有可能是在零組件當中來自於中國而目前中國也是我們重要的進口的零件的部分那這個相關的部分還有另外一個除了經濟部之外那就是關稅如果說今天我們進口車是17%左右的關稅那麼在零組件當中尤其是從中國進口的零件從10%到17%不等那麼這些零件當中是不是也植入在我們的公務車的採購當中"},{"start":5411.314,"end":5432.522,"text":"那這個部分到底怎麼樣來做一個標準跟界定這個部分國安局有沒有關注到?我們有關注就理解經濟部應該在這部分也有注意到委員所提到的潛在的風險所以應該在兩三個月前有一個新的措施是針對使用中國提供的汽車零件它比例應該不能超過35%左右那假如沒有達到"},{"start":5436.724,"end":5437.926,"text":"本席希望呢這個國安單位能夠針對這個部分來做了解因為"},{"start":5454.625,"end":5464.756,"text":"電動車就開在台灣而中國的電動車用清消的方式補貼的方式除了當然他希望佔有市場的市佔率之外對我們來講這種敵對勢力當中如果植入相關木馬城市或者是對於台灣的整體安全有危害的"},{"start":5471.963,"end":5476.444,"text":"從公車到公務車我希望國安單位能夠跟其他相關的部會能夠聯絡起來把這個問題做一個處理跟了解如果可以的話我也希望您剛提到的這個報告包括提供給經濟部有關於中國電動車傾銷台灣的狀況可能遇到的問題這個報告是不是也可以提供給我們立法院國防外交委員會"},{"start":5493.428,"end":5494.129,"text":"接下來質詢請王定宇委員"},{"start":5527.182,"end":5531.274,"text":"謝謝麻煩請國安局海巡署有請蔡局長海巡署"},{"start":5536.451,"end":5565.611,"text":"好 謝謝主席 換委員長局長跟署長好我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位會有很多事件我舉個例子在今年的6月份中國的快艇直闖淡水河當然淡水河對我們來講是我們未需作戰非常重要的愛口那邊有淡水大營然後呢進來之後可以到我們的水門就到總統府中樞的附近所以當時大家是很嚴肅看這個事情"},{"start":5566.391,"end":5591.465,"text":"我們漢光演習不管幾號的演習沿著這條河我們都有重兵在部署那當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河劃分上海巡署我們這個應該是在權責上24海里以內就12海里以內應該是你們的權責嘛那這裡面有一些精進啊什麼我要請教你但是我想到那個"},{"start":5592.806,"end":5597.008,"text":"我現在排列的也許只是時間序列不見得是因果關係"},{"start":5614.855,"end":5629.855,"text":"在2021��2021年4月30號臺中港西碼頭有一個軍規的橡皮艇上來了這個案子到現在怎麼情形大概請你一定回答當時在4月份共建航母這一個遼寧號跟武騷軍艦在臺海周邊演習"},{"start":5633.851,"end":5652.473,"text":"後來在2022年的6月11號臺東的富岡漁港那個時候有水上摩托車啦有橡皮艇啦等等也有類似這樣的事件當時是聯合警巡然後到今年的523聯合利建A"},{"start":5653.783,"end":5659.366,"text":"首先我要請教海巡署跟國安局之前那幾件目前偵辦調查的狀況進度可不可以讓我們知道一下"},{"start":5676.536,"end":5703.387,"text":"我先整體說明一下再請署長來做細節的補充就一旦發生到中國的偷渡客的案件之後一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦那再送請地方法院來進行偵處那以最後的那個淡水的那個案子一審已經宣判就是判刑8個月但是當事人在那個是指非法入境偷渡的部分我現在講的是國家安全情資情報的部分是這一些東西"},{"start":5705.034,"end":5725.679,"text":"有沒有去研判他跟我們國家安全或者試探軍情有所關係有沒有因果關係我們在做相關的判斷因為當事人都會有些說辭我們必須要針對他的說辭來做一些釐清再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品以及傳播國安局現在整合所有情報機關你們目前研判起來"},{"start":5727.358,"end":5747.888,"text":"有沒有那樣的跡象在每個個案的狀況都不太一樣但是我們發現的跡象是他們一般都是要來這邊投奔自由那都說到他們在對岸有受到相關的迫害那我們覺得那個說辭似乎都版本很一致像一個模板對對對這大概是我們注意到的對他有像一個模板的說辭然後呢坦白講這個時代齁"},{"start":5749.969,"end":5766.08,"text":"他們買個機票飛那個生命的風險更低成功機率更高所以這個我說國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來有沒有跟國安關係或者中國受益的因果關係有沒有這樣的跡象"},{"start":5766.76,"end":5784.387,"text":"對這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在那海巡署你們目前像臺中港西碼頭那一個用軍規的橡皮艇啪一下跑到我們臺中港那臺中港在我們未需作戰在我們國土保衛戰裡面是一個重要的點嘛你們那個案子現在有沒有新的進度"},{"start":5785.807,"end":5813.009,"text":"跟委員報告那這個案子我們現在研判起來他是用小型的快艇跟跟這一個這一個機動那個我知道因為報紙有寫嘛他小型快艇然後衝進來然後我們這一個最後面的研判的分析的結果就是剛剛跟那個國安局蔡局長講的部分就是非常一致的就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們台灣可能"},{"start":5816.012,"end":5827.842,"text":"我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議因為我們的偷渡這種非法路徑的刑責很低它的代價很小"},{"start":5829.557,"end":5853.954,"text":"反過來我們這邊要不然我們叫張榮鑫署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看你看要關多久所以他的代價低試探的成本很低所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他的跡象的話我們應該援引更嚴的更重的法律來制裁他來遏止這個情形這是一個第二個我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為啊"},{"start":5854.915,"end":5882.201,"text":"海上的船那麼多有的有AIS有的AIS發報又是錯誤的然後呢漁船有50艘100艘有一個快艇迫近進來你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生跟委員報告齁那針對這部分我們會跟國安隊相關單位做聯合勤見證部分那另外一部分因為你聯合勤見證什麼部分過去也有聯合難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎有有有有有有他跑進來啦有沒有什麼作為去防止"},{"start":5882.581,"end":5903.164,"text":"我們現在的作為就是我們要提升我們雷達的徵收效能那從這幾個案例這個顯示我們現在現有的所有的雷達包括徵收裝備它對於小型目標掌握它是有它的盲點的部分雷達有盲點是那但是剛好我岳父是漁民啊近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎"},{"start":5904.844,"end":5926.773,"text":"你看到了你怎麼辨別它又不是大家都有開AIS有的AIS還買Made in China打開來的顯示還不對的你怎麼辨別跟委員報告目前我們現在跟港港局還有US在推動就是在114年會全部在不管是20噸以下20噸以下的這個所有傳播要求要裝AIS"},{"start":5928.154,"end":5943.281,"text":"那這個部分會在114年的時候完成?這個也是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛我提醒就是說有些科技比如說無人機我前兩天去中科院看瑞淵2當然那是軍規的你們不用買到那麼貴那麼好的"},{"start":5944.682,"end":5957.823,"text":"他可以在空中俯視同時掃到所有的大小型船艦然後用AI去辨別他到底是明確的或不明的C4ISR要整合通報回來"},{"start":5959.155,"end":5959.395,"text":"海巡署請回"},{"start":5987.455,"end":6010.746,"text":"那個蔡局長現在我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對例件A啦或者是例件B我要請教是我們現在中共的聯合戰備警詢幾乎已經常態化了嘛那它常態化的狀態下在可以揭露的情形下有沒有新的樣態國人需要注意的"},{"start":6012.179,"end":6027.849,"text":"對,就鄭委員所提到的聯合戰備警訊中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化大概平均下來每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警訊每週一次規模大概多大他大概在"},{"start":6030.904,"end":6033.647,"text":"一般大概都會有幾艘的船艦到我們的24海里周邊的水域來活動另外就除了一般的戰轟"},{"start":6054.166,"end":6056.709,"text":"他有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡是是你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦"},{"start":6069.323,"end":6092.1,"text":"登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡大概有兩個目的一個目的就是熟悉那個航渡的一個過程那第二部分當然就是希望能夠在更熟悉整個台海的作業的環境那這大概是另外一個特點他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號的?型號的部分都我記得有三級一般"},{"start":6093.101,"end":6094.182,"text":"兩位先求我最後一個問題來問一下調查局長"},{"start":6115.387,"end":6141.614,"text":"局長你邊走邊聽陳局長你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處的處長而且你查查共諜的績效非常好曾經在一年內有20件盡力而為這個是你的職責你不行要盡力而為你要做到那我現在請教的是現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪常常跟洗錢有關因為它要有金流所以我把握最後跟主席借一分鐘"},{"start":6142.754,"end":6158.286,"text":"我們在洗錢防治上或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟那他們在定義的Financial Intelligence Unit也就是說金融的情資單位FIU我們國家定義就是你嘛就是大家局"},{"start":6160.507,"end":6186.834,"text":"那我請教過去一年來我們有沒有異常的接受不管相關的友盟相關的團體或者是這個愛格盟等等異常的通報有有我接受異常通報有有在這個愛格盟聯盟裡面的會員彼此都會對於一些異常的金流會有一些情報的交換在過去這一年有那我舉個例子"},{"start":6188.294,"end":6217.335,"text":"在特定的政治人物特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流目前沒有發現目前沒有發現那化整為零的網路平台的donate你們能不能掌握這個部分比較不會是在愛格萌聯盟通報那個不是愛格萌聯盟是金融活動那個是另外一個洗錢的管道在新的網路媒體平台它累積的金額可能百萬千萬但是過去我們法律在這一塊是可以防治的可能用donate的方式"},{"start":6219.357,"end":6233.256,"text":"目前在金流的查處部分在有關這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難因為這個必須要這些網路的母公司在國際的這些公司的配合你們有沒有在處理"},{"start":6235.399,"end":6261.178,"text":"我們現在正在努力跟這些因為我們要勾結他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來吧那一塊變黑洞啊另外賭盤的地下金流詐騙集團的地下金流你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎這個部分是其中一個部分而已其中一個部分而已賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流他們的流通的管道有很多像現在目前比較科技化的是會用虛擬貨幣"},{"start":6262.699,"end":6262.719,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6294.397,"end":6309.865,"text":"好謝謝我們接下來進行詢答的委員沈柏洋委員好謝謝主席有請局長謝謝"},{"start":6317.721,"end":6339.594,"text":"謝謝主席 周委員好今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的這個在3、4月的時候我們在討論中國侵台手段的時候那時候也跟國安局討論過就是說關於這些軍事的騷擾目前它的管轄權的擴張在金門這一次的事件統戰這是藝人相關的還有這個輿論的操作就是變得越來越多"},{"start":6340.194,"end":6367.307,"text":"那我就按照這個順序稍微問一下第一個當然就是這一次這個武力的部分那因為這一次解放軍這個圍台他說是這個包圍越逼越近那當然因為他有A當然自然有B那我記得國安局在之前的這個報告的時候就提過說他有這個接下來的這個可能性所以接下來的確是有一個預判那是不是可以請局長說明一下這次預判的過程當中是有哪一些行為就是我們提早做了哪些應酬"},{"start":6368.657,"end":6384.986,"text":"對就中共的軍演大概我們在事前預判從政治的動機角度來看我們認為他為了要持續對台進行施壓一定會在國慶之後有一些動作不管國慶演說講什麼所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷"},{"start":6385.506,"end":6409.904,"text":"那這是從政治的角度來判斷那第二部分是中共要動員一場演習他必須要有一些基建的動員還有部署所以在演習之前的幾天大概已經可以看到這些基建開始進行一些活動那國防部當然也針對遼寧艦到西泰的這個動作有做一些新聞的釋出所以在過程當中可以知道中共已經在為所謂的聯合"},{"start":6410.544,"end":6416.407,"text":"謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國外的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續"},{"start":6437.279,"end":6465.687,"text":"所以就是說他今天這一個海警艦隊這件事情他針對我們的海巡然後又放相關的假消息這個部分有沒有在預料之內有因為這一次的演習中國的海警參與的程度比較高總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船加上另外兩艘公務船一艘海調船公務船兩艘裡面包括一艘海調船跟一艘海巡船那在演習過程當中他們都在台灣周邊不同的水域以及外島來進行相關的一個巡邏那因為"},{"start":6466.227,"end":6488.762,"text":"中國海警有相關的角色所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡那中國海警也針對他們的相關的一個活動來做這個圖卡來對台灣進行相關的認知作戰那在正義訊息的查處的部分事實上我剛也跟林楚英委員有做說明我們說重視中共的軍事動態以外"},{"start":6489.222,"end":6504.419,"text":"那另外也在注意到的是正義訊息的散佈以及治安攻擊可能的狀況所以就委員現在關心的正義訊息的散佈的部分我們都會在網路上即時即收即報那也讓各單位可以來進行必要的說明跟應處"},{"start":6505.16,"end":6534.84,"text":"所以就他們網路上散布台灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況為了知道海巡署在第一時間就做相關的訊息的澄清那對於所謂剛剛林楚英委員在關心到因為網路上在散布爭議訊息說天然氣的傳播沒有辦法靠港因為受到演習的影響那這部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源那調查局也在這部分有做對外的一個說明"},{"start":6535.18,"end":6554.831,"text":"所以整個過程當中對於正義訊息的查找來源以及對外說明大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制因為這個就是剛剛提到輿論的操作那當然除了就是剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息那這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下就是它會有一些當然就是很多是IP是來自於攝影機所以就是網路的攝影機"},{"start":6556.752,"end":6580.943,"text":"但是就是說他很多的爭議消息和奇怪的幾個點是在於說他一放之後呢他很快就刪除了那很快就刪除的原因當然可能有很多個啦一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶又或者說呢他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了或者說他今天使用的帳號不對他可能會有千千百百種原因但就不知道說他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係這可能請國安局注意一下但另外一個就是說我們的藝人"},{"start":6582.023,"end":6610.905,"text":"因為統戰相關的這個藝人今年是特別的多那當然也不是都今年開始從我們的研究我們大概都可以知道對藝人的這個滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語從這個什麼從反對台獨從那個不支持台獨到反對台獨到不支持統一到完全支持統一等等之類的所以我們可以看到接下來的已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說這個只有一個中國台獨是死路一條那"},{"start":6611.645,"end":6630.055,"text":"這件事情對我來講就是說如果今天是藝人表態藝人畢竟是在自由市場他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情那他可能也是他的自由但假設今天發文的人不是藝人今天假設今天是一個比如說台灣的教授他已經有這個他是平常有拿教育部的薪水"},{"start":6630.575,"end":6649.072,"text":"又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色"},{"start":6650.854,"end":6668.633,"text":"所以針對這一點我們有看到就是說這一次這個也是國安團會就有提到就是還有幾個階段嘛官方先定調然後呢官媒再協力擴散最後再由台灣的藝人去做這個陸續的轉發那我現在想的就是第四第五階段的事情就是說如果等到比較重要的人物比如說政黨的代表"},{"start":6669.133,"end":6696.551,"text":"他也開始講這些話的時候那我們該怎麼辦因此呢就是我們現在在研擬一個方案就是說我們刑法這個外患罪我想說這一個這個局長一定非常熟悉啦我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已就是說呢你意圖使這個我們的領土為這個他國的領土通謀然後是死刑或無期徒刑那現在對我們的司法的體系來講那一條很難用就第一個他刑責重死刑無期徒刑然後他的要件又很不明確"},{"start":6697.472,"end":6718.068,"text":"所以我們針對這一點呢目前列了這四個第一個就是跟這個案件最有關係的就是公開聲明或向外國或其派遣之人承認該國或他國對中華民國實行有統治權者這是第一種那再來呢後面我們還列了幾種有什麼違背就是你承諾像我們之前有看到有將領直接去簽了這一個說投降協議這是屬於第二種"},{"start":6719.389,"end":6746.756,"text":"又或者說第三個在台灣直接舉報這一個相關的這些事項讓中國可以合法的能夠在台灣行使公權力這一定也是問題嘛又或者說呢就直接去簽署和平協議等等之類的那我們現在列出了這一些但我們現在也會覺得說我們不可能一開始就說一人做這一個我們就認為是問題基本上應該還是要有特定身份的人比如說總統來做這一種或者我們的退將我們的軍人政黨代表"},{"start":6747.176,"end":6764.387,"text":"所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面這當然還是打一個問號但我會認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候應該不管是國防內政還有司法法制應該一定會請國安局來說明所以呢希望看國安團隊能不能針對這一個就是來做一個做一個重整"},{"start":6764.907,"end":6780.061,"text":"讓我們開始在看這些法條的時候呢可以請問一下因為你們並在第一線所以到底有哪些類型沒有被放進來或者說有哪一些可能太廣了我們可能需要在委員會討論所以這方面可能請局長指示一下就是看能不能團隊然後來做一些準備好"},{"start":6781.242,"end":6804.93,"text":"這部分也跟委員做個補充的說明就中共對台的一個統戰或是認知作戰的樣態確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對台政策的一些說法那藝人政治人物退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等的都是他們操作的過去的一些看到的手法那在法律要件的部分我想對於大院報告委員可以來提出對於"},{"start":6805.59,"end":6831.345,"text":"外患罪一些條文的修正的話那我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論那否則目前來講在法律工具上確實有一些局限性那比如說像這一類的徵訊的散布我們也曾經考慮過是不是有涉及到反滲透法危害公共安全或公共利益的部分但條文在運用上確實有它的限制所以非常從國安的角度來講我們非常樂見大院可以有這些修法的討論"},{"start":6832.845,"end":6846.752,"text":"確實以反滲透法來講我們最近也提出了一個修法上禮拜有送出去就是針對爭議訊息但因為爭議訊息有些是什麼有些是本來法律就有處罰的像什麼內線交易相關的或者說跟農業相關的傳染病相關的"},{"start":6847.412,"end":6871.404,"text":"那這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮比較有疑慮的一定就會是類似像涉違法那一種就涉違法那個要搭配反滲透法我們真的要這樣定的時候一定會有人反對說啊這個又是在這個侵犯言論自由但我覺得這個部分一定要嚴厲是因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了"},{"start":6871.884,"end":6888.334,"text":"開始就在散佈說什麼海巡還在根本就沒有認真準備要把酒言歡什麼等等之類的這不只對士氣會有傷害來對人民對這一個不管是國軍跟海巡的信任一定會有傷害是那接下來我還想問一下一個比較小的問題就是我發現國安局的網站"},{"start":6888.974,"end":6912.963,"text":"在這一個從開始會有這個比如說有黃色的那個部分在左上角有點小就是那個10月份媒體試讀然後就會開始放一些就是說這個開始有一些在比如說抖音啊TikTok上面有一些爭議的消息的散播那我這邊只是很單純我覺得這個是好事這絕對沒問題只是我想問一下因為畢竟爭議信息我們看到夜報裡面其實很多這個挑選的依據會是什麼"},{"start":6914.403,"end":6940.235,"text":"對在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體試讀的正義訊息的一些資訊那就正義訊息來講我們會有幾個主要原則就錯假害他是錯的惡意的去散佈而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害的以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷那特別我們還會列出他的等級到底是中高低那這個等級"},{"start":6941.115,"end":6942.136,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員"},{"start":6980.417,"end":6981.463,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長來,局長請"},{"start":6991.556,"end":7012.463,"text":"局長早 局長今天相信所有的委員大概我們也圍繞著大概就是在國安當然樣態也非常多可是我們看到今天的報告裡面尤其我們今天要探討的賴總統說會把2300萬人民的生命放在心上然後可是我們為什麼"},{"start":7014.063,"end":7026.778,"text":"現在看到解放軍在臺灣周遭軍演的頻率越來越頻繁然後距離也越來越迫近局長有什麼樣的看法對我想在看解放軍的軍演大概有兩個面向"},{"start":7028.7,"end":7030.862,"text":"在國際社會要是有對於兩岸問題或對台灣的軍售或是通過友台的法案也會有中共一個理由來舉行相關的軍演"},{"start":7050.263,"end":7068.154,"text":"第二面向是比較國際區域戰略的面向因為我們有注意到中共不只在台海地區事實上在東海地區在南海地區它的整體的動作都非常的多所以背後有一個整體的中共的大戰略是在做軍事上的一個投射能力的提升那台灣當然就變成首當其衝"},{"start":7069.495,"end":7089.166,"text":"所以中共其實它所謂的大戰略它就不會只針對台灣那可是過去因為剛剛講到的不管是軍售也好或者其他比如說我們在所有的對外的一些相關的言論或者兩岸的交流等等其實最大最明顯的不同是因為兩岸交流現在已經凍結了"},{"start":7091.627,"end":7118.338,"text":"根本沒有辦法有效的去做溝通或者在交流方面其實不管是民間也好政府也好其實都已經達到了冰點所以讓我們現在發生的狀況越來越嚴峻包括現在很多外媒也好不要說我們自己啦因為這樣有很多什麼錯假訊息剛剛有提到說如果要入法的部分在這裡也提醒國安局"},{"start":7119.218,"end":7131.869,"text":"今天不是只有哪一些代表人物或者什麼教授或誰他們可能需要被這樣約束如果政府或者有官員製造錯假訊息或者甚至"},{"start":7133.902,"end":7135.543,"text":"那我要請教的是解放軍在10月14號聯合立見"},{"start":7162.681,"end":7174.127,"text":"2024B維台軍演的部分．他包括了藥港藥城的封控．還有對海對陸的打擊．他演習的科目是未曾出現過的這樣子的一個具體訊號"},{"start":7176.479,"end":7201.838,"text":"一解放軍演習示意圖他用紅圈標出來臺灣有六個十分重要的香港軍港連續兩次他這一次已經標出來了這連續兩次執行聯合立見2024系列的演習一相關的情報演習想要請教局長他相同跟不同的地方在哪裡"},{"start":7202.718,"end":7220.418,"text":"有,我們也是有向委員所提醒的來做一些例次演習的比較那我們比較了這一次的2024B還有5月的2024A跟去年4月的2023聯合力戰的演習那比較起來這一次的演習的時間是比較短的"},{"start":7220.558,"end":7220.858,"text":"國防部委員"},{"start":7251.64,"end":7267.921,"text":"局長他雖然只有13個小時不過根據日美的他的報導他的看法這次解放軍他展現全天候行動的能力是更加的實戰化我剛剛請教的是說他A跟B有什麼樣相同或不同的地方"},{"start":7269.723,"end":7291.966,"text":"實際上委員剛剛已經有提到了他這次畫色本島外面大概有6個演習區以及3個外離島包括東眼馬祖跟烏丘有所謂的巡邏區那他畫的那個演習的區域大概委員剛剛已經提到了就是執行的是要域要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊那這大概是跟上次在演習科部比較不一樣的地方"},{"start":7295.119,"end":7315.97,"text":"簡單來說在這裡要提醒然後也跟局長做一個探討當時有2024A的時候大家就有猜到可能還有BCD等等然後現在B已經出現了那A的時候其實如果大家有印象那時候澎湖還在裡面"},{"start":7317.307,"end":7336.741,"text":"這一次它澎湖不見了它圍住的是我們台灣它把台灣包圍起來所以簡單來說A是演練區域拒止B現在看起來它是海港封鎖它就是包圍戰如果到C的時候"},{"start":7337.842,"end":7359.12,"text":"因為你這一次澎湖沒有他等於說A的時候他感覺好像他已經拿下澎湖了所以在B的部分是整個包圍我們所有的港口海港商軍港等等那如果是C局長你看會怎麼樣如果他還有利建C你研判會是什麼"},{"start":7360.28,"end":7383.884,"text":"中共歷次的軍演他都有他的演習科目要去推動那當然從不同的演習科目當中去檢驗他的一些軍事準備的一些方案作為後面修正的一個餐具那至於聯合歷屆2024期第一個會不會發生以及發生的話他演習科目會怎麼進行我想不適合做太多的臆測那我要提醒的是"},{"start":7384.244,"end":7395.173,"text":"那不是議策你要做準備因為剛剛有委員在說你們提早好像知道B的時候你是很高興的喔那現在如果說我們預判有C的時候你覺得它會是怎麼樣因為我們剛剛有提到A的時候"},{"start":7399.437,"end":7401.358,"text":"中共一些軍演相關的預案大概有幾個重點"},{"start":7427.734,"end":7431.827,"text":"我跟委員講從這些重點出來第一個聯合火力打擊聯合封控"},{"start":7432.987,"end":7438.809,"text":"聯合登錄聯合登錄還有聯合記者我現在說的是ABC他為什麼要分ABC我剛剛講了A是什麼B是什麼B已經包圍了C會是什麼他會做什麼樣的演練有可能是登錄嗎這個我們有沒有做到這樣的演習我剛剛已經跟委員講了他歷來的演習就是剛剛我講的那幾個重點那剛剛委員對A的解釋因為不是那麼貼近實際的狀況那A是什麼你的看法A是什麼如果不是貼近實際的狀況A是什麼"},{"start":7462.918,"end":7466.539,"text":"那是我們現在的看法,你必須要,那你要解釋說他為什麼這次澎湖沒有在裡面呢?我們國安局怎麼看呢?C有沒有可能演練就是登錄?"},{"start":7482.623,"end":7501.251,"text":"回答這個部分就好我沒有辦法做這樣的預判那如果他演練的是這個部分呢每一次的演練都是我剛剛跟人報告的那幾個重點你不是等著人家玩以後你再去做那個就不叫延期是你必須要在他之前還沒有做之前你就必須做判斷所以我們現在要知道的我們擔心的"},{"start":7503.792,"end":7508.316,"text":"我們要怎麼樣去有應處的作為你A B已經完了接下來的C是不是登錄的一個演練這個部分我們國安局回去以後做一個詳細的去研判好不好我們在推演演習的預案不是憑空想像"},{"start":7520.305,"end":7548.46,"text":"我們會根據他在延期之前我們會根據他在延期之前實際的兵力調度實際的兵力部署的狀況來做必要的預判我們會有預判這什麼預判就非常準確請求委員請告訴我們C也許會出現C你的延期是什麼這是國安局的責任你必須讓全民知道而不是大家如果有B的時候大家還是馬照跑舞照跳現在大家就是這種"},{"start":7550.061,"end":7550.381,"text":"接下来"},{"start":7575.935,"end":7598.063,"text":"這個局長你告訴我們所有你研判C可能會什麼這個是你們要做的這是本期在這裡提出來接下來我想要請教的官局在今天的報告裡面強調統戰中共要掌握兩岸關係阻擾權要我們的基層青年富中還有大力的推動交流等等"},{"start":7600.08,"end":7626.74,"text":"我們認為這是中共的意識形態還有它的文化統戰的一個部分可是我舉幾個例子不好意思喔主席第一個郝柏春在晚年的時候他有附錄公開曾經說過中國大陸官方在抗戰宣傳上面把國民黨跟共產黨相提並論這是不公道的一個說法他認為他說包括共產黨跟國民黨"},{"start":7627.961,"end":7628.481,"text":"蔡明彥率相關情報機關首"},{"start":7652.176,"end":7680.416,"text":"認為國民黨是有很大的一個貢獻因為畢竟蔣介石是當時世界公認的中國領袖國軍在主戰場上抗日是主要的一個主力那另外還有就是共產黨是無神論者我們說我們去參鄉是被統戰我想我們舉的很多的例子包括周杰倫他青花死在兩岸其實都傳唱非常的普遍這些其實都"},{"start":7681.437,"end":7710.562,"text":"這是共產黨的統戰嗎?其實應該是反統戰吧而且我們甚至讓他們後來把我們不要的全部都撿走了這個部分我想國安局在這個部分是不是在做一個更深切或者更務實的一個說明我們會釐清那個文化交流跟文化統戰的差別那文化統戰一般很多都涉及到它統戰部門的活動跟全台聯台辦系統相關的文化滲透跟統戰那這才是我們關注的重點而不是一般的文化"},{"start":7710.822,"end":7738.742,"text":"所以不要把所有的交流都把它套上被統戰的這個帽子因為大家承擔不起這個也不是國安局應該做的你應該要更務實的而且更實際的去區分出來我剛剛提到的ABC麻煩在C的部分國安局可以提供給我們委員會相關的資料就算交流我們都尊重都沒有意見但是對於違議場或違法的我們會積極的來去檢查不要用自己的態度去加上違法的部分"},{"start":7739.002,"end":7740.483,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是黃仁委員有請謝謝主席有請局長來蔡局長請"},{"start":7764.173,"end":7791.34,"text":"好謝謝主席黃國仁長是原寫剛剛馬文堅所提的就是例件A跟例件B那根據在107年的路透社裡面已經有報道出來那我在10月8號我在國安總諮詢的時候我特別有諮詢我們的主委院長包含國防部的顧立雄部長特別提到"},{"start":7793.735,"end":7796.86,"text":"在我們的雙十國慶的晚宴晚會當時的主播論延遲到我們10月10號"},{"start":7805.58,"end":7823.967,"text":"我特別提到說對岸不是沒有動作只看我們10月10號是不是我們賴總統又提了新的兩國論果不其然引起了這樣的一個震驚跟震撼那最後最後"},{"start":7825.87,"end":7842.868,"text":"所以他們在前天就有大動作來這樣的一個還台我想不管是例件A或者例件B未來的例件C可能會產生的對我們國安對我們整個的國家"},{"start":7844.749,"end":7860.354,"text":"會動盪的不安所以這樣的一個很多的消息是不是你們高層國安高層洩露出來的秘密還是怎麼樣讓我們國內造成不安局長你回答"},{"start":7861.194,"end":7861.294,"text":"蔡明彥"},{"start":7891.475,"end":7905.748,"text":"你們要調查清楚好不好麻煩你們調查到底是你們高層內部還是總統府放出來的消息還是你們國安單位放出來的消息這個你調查一下好不好給本席一個報告那另外就是關於東亞的局勢"},{"start":7909.552,"end":7932.51,"text":"你報告裡面是提了以哈戰事反而真正在東亞東亞發生的衝突的結果沒有提到你這邊的裡面的報告目前朝鮮半島對我們台海的趨勢本來有關聯性前三天都已經發生這樣這麼重大的一個兩韓之間北韓跟南韓之間的衝突"},{"start":7934.091,"end":7954.022,"text":"所以這個發生裡面都已經產生對我們國內對極大台海的局勢那另外就是我們今天我們講一個共機發動聯合力建2024的經驗以朝鮮半島的局勢升高時期很巧妙"},{"start":7954.702,"end":7982.071,"text":"那局長認為這只是一個巧合還是中共跟北韓已經有互通的消息你來回答一下社委委員提到朝鮮半島的安全情勢那事實上朝鮮半島安全情勢的升溫大概在去年的下半年8月以後它的狀況就有比較升溫那主要的原因是在當時因為美日韓的峰會對於朝鮮半島風險的控管有達成了美日韓高層的一個"},{"start":7982.751,"end":7985.732,"text":"十幾點都已經這麼巧合的一個十幾點所以你們有沒有掌控這樣的一個情報有些寫者有寫者指出"},{"start":8002.978,"end":8024.369,"text":"中共利用朝鮮半島趨勢升溫的時間點進行了軍演目的是要在測試美軍有無能力同時應對朝鮮半島及台海兩格危機因此顯然中共的目標主要在區域據上中共認為一旦"},{"start":8025.089,"end":8054.289,"text":"能夠達成區域聚職就能順利武統台灣局長嚴判認為這樣的說法有沒有正確因為這是學者說的這是一種學者的說法我們當然會尊重也會參考但實際的狀況事實上跟人說明的是最近這一段期間北韓跟俄國的關係是積極的在改善跟加強當中但反倒是中共跟北韓的關係是處在一個比較"},{"start":8055.87,"end":8074.084,"text":"我們從雙方互動往來的成績以及北韓也對中共來進行相關的一個批評那還有中共也在管制北韓的物品到中國大陸來所以我們整體來分析就情資的角度來看那朝二的關係在加強但中朝的關係現在是處在比較低潮的狀況"},{"start":8074.724,"end":8098.485,"text":"因為路透社所報導的你們應該都已經掌控但是高層裡面放消息你們也應該知道所以不是因為他們在開始還台、圍台的時候你們才緊急的國安會議包含總統召集所有的各單位裡面緊急的會議應該你們在之前就應該掌控而且"},{"start":8098.945,"end":8117.554,"text":"要對國人對外在台海局勢的一個狀況裡面要如何來安撫我們國人要不然的話又是一個緊張其次台海之間的一個關係那另外就是我特別講的是"},{"start":8119.095,"end":8146.217,"text":"台海跟朝鮮本來就是全球的一個火藥庫所以我們這個部分我們特別要國安局要掌握這個消息的第一手消息因為我常常提到對岸有任何動作我們國安本來就是優先的而不是要透過了媒體爆料甚至你們高層的爆料所以我想剛剛我提到是希望你們提供這個資料給我那另外一次來我"},{"start":8147.478,"end":8175.419,"text":"我想請教一下我們的海巡署委員你好你好這一次的聯合歷艦B演習在內中共不斷強化其海警與軍隊聯合作戰的能力本期過去執行過多次提到觀察中共歷史的演習他們每一次都會有新的演練的項目那花燒越來越多"},{"start":8176.3,"end":8190.349,"text":"那逼迫越來越緊今年的2月中共海警曾經在金門南下了我們觀光船登船臨檢盤查過去中共海警主要在外島這一次已經到了本島周邊驗證要幹"},{"start":8193.671,"end":8216.358,"text":"要一要港的封控的能力這一次的傳出剛剛你們一直提到假消息假消息今天傳出了中友的LNG傳液化天然氣運輸傳台達二號因共經演習掉頭反而這個方向的驅離那這個"},{"start":8218.399,"end":8243.596,"text":"你們中郵有特別有這個新聞稿裏面有澄清是因為港區無毛破區供該船的停泊請問一下有這麼巧的事情這是你們自己資源吸收還是你們自己本身掌握的情報不足你們現在海巡署要特別特別注意到"},{"start":8244.036,"end":8270.493,"text":"因為你們是海巡治安單位最高的單位你來回答一下好不好跟委員報告那因為這個LNG船的部分是這個經濟部跟外電已經有發布宣告澄清那沒有這一個事情那另外海巡署在應對中國公務船部我們主要是應對海警船跟相關的公務船那軍艦部分是由國防部來處理"},{"start":8271.494,"end":8294.572,"text":"那這次演習沒有進到我們24海里雖然它動用的海警船高達12艘但是沒有進到我們12海里那只要它一進到我們12海里我們是採一艦一艇的方式來對應並航監控那只要進到的時候我們會做驅離跟必要的手段那這部分我們海軍署完全可以掌握這個海面的狀況跟委員報告"},{"start":8297.149,"end":8315.22,"text":"我現在提一個方向中共還請傳執行的是屬於內政行為那內政行為的執法若我國無法有所應對等同默認中共建立於內政程序對台的新常態"},{"start":8316.041,"end":8340.099,"text":"海巡署是我國海洋巡訪的治安單位對於中共打算建立的新常態有什麼樣的應對來如果下次再發生不管今天他是利劍B未來可能引進到利劍C這個他們在一弄一國際法的這樣的一個戰略的一個名稱你來回答一下"},{"start":8340.919,"end":8370.448,"text":"跟委員報告那只要中共的海警船進到我們24海里他來所謂的執法事實上他不是執法這已經是一個騷擾行為侵擾行為那我們會用最嚴正的這一個部署然後來去加以去理那這邊要特別跟委員報告我們海巡組對維護我國海權海疆的權益是不遺餘力的我們堅定我們的立場絕對不會讓中共進到24海里"},{"start":8370.728,"end":8392.334,"text":"特別分為報告另外這樣子啦報主給我一分鐘我們先講一個如果未來中共已常態性阻擾了LNG的運輸船那將是危害我國能源安全安全法那你們如果像的一個應對有什麼樣的一個應對能力"},{"start":8394.69,"end":8419.937,"text":"跟委員報告只要中共的公務船舶進到24海裏海巡署會不惜一切的手段拒止在24海裏不會讓中共的公務船舶進到我們24海裏不要再找一個理由說又是一個沒有提供停泊的一個地方再找這樣的一個理由好不好跟委員報告那是一個錯假訊息謝謝好謝謝防人委員來處長請回謝謝"},{"start":8422.762,"end":8424.825,"text":"好接下來進行詢答委員徐巧熙委員喂"},{"start":8447.9,"end":8451.806,"text":"謝謝主席請蔡明彥局長跟我們海巡署署長來兩位請"},{"start":8457.232,"end":8479.909,"text":"謝謝主席 薛委員早謝謝我想在聯合力艦B的軍演當中中共他們實施軍警一體的新架構所以這一次他們的海警船也有編列首度納入我方對於對岸的新措施上次就有了有什麼樣的就是他在聯合力艦裡面編進來的嗎"},{"start":8481.79,"end":8503.445,"text":"所以聯合力艦A跟聯合力艦B它是在聯合力艦的這個系統裡面它編進來那我們的因應措施部分在海巡署人力裝備是否足夠因為最近我們也收到很多的陳情關於海巡署的相關的軍備裝備的部分他們有一些疑慮"},{"start":8504.125,"end":8526.587,"text":"是不是可以幫我們來做一些澄清：從國安的角度評估有沒有建議相關單位競速補齊的問題是海巡署要說的那是什麼各位跟委員報告那有關媒體報導部分海巡署的專業部分特別跟委員這個索米跟澄清那海巡署所有的艦船艇包括我們的所有的裝備它是足夠的"},{"start":8527.188,"end":8551.544,"text":"那我們有定義一個武器裝備的配物標準吸行的配物標準它根據任務不同會吸行不同的裝備那所以這個部分是沒有問題的另外這次中共海警船在台灣周邊總計有一個出現12艘但是我們海警署就出動了13艘的艦船跟58艘的巡航艇所以在應對上面是"},{"start":8553.145,"end":8558.554,"text":"另外我們也準備了第二梯次的預備的兵力所以這個部分請委員放心沒有問題"},{"start":8559.461,"end":8580.431,"text":"因為呢先前在之前的那個金門事件我們才發現說你們連最基本的這個監視器相關的設備都沒有所以大家才會很擔心說海巡署相關的設備到底買齊了沒所以我順便問一下後來你們相關船隻的監視器以及我們的海巡署的人員的監視器買齊了嗎"},{"start":8582.392,"end":8611.349,"text":"他們全部都已經到9月之前已經全部配發已經完成這個部分了那因為兩岸的海巡艦隊的部分呢中國大陸的海警船他們最大的艦級是多少噸一萬兩千噸二九零一我們台灣最大的艦級是多少噸四千噸在這麼大的懸殊之下那我們的因應措施是什麼我們的船比較多或者是我們因應的策略比較好"},{"start":8612.398,"end":8613.779,"text":"所以你們的策略就是迅速我知道了"},{"start":8634.818,"end":8662.319,"text":"那接下來問一下蔡局長就是呢經濟部呢目前研擬要去菲律賓設置綠電再用船隻跟電纜送過來那郭志輝部長說呢這是AIT牽線的請問國安局有掌握這個資訊嗎這是因為是經濟部的業管那他們相關的一個計畫的整備跟推動我們尊重經濟部相關的一個對話說法但是目前配合中共武力演習使用的蟒蛇戰術您認為是否有國安的風險"},{"start":8664.21,"end":8688.942,"text":"這是美國智庫的一個用語叫蟒蛇戰術那我剛也跟包括陳永康委員在說明中共可能的對台軍事準備的方案有各種的方案那我們對各種方案都會加以引起那我問的是說設置這樣子的非綠兵設置綠電再用船隻跟電纜送綠電過來根據目前的中共對台的這樣子軍演跟相關的"},{"start":8690.183,"end":8711.729,"text":"部署會不會有國安上面的問題你們的考量是什麼因為他這個案子可能還在規劃當中如果有這樣的案子的話假如有諮詢到國安局的意見的話我們會提供我們相關的評估在內部會議要做討論我現在就在問你嘛你的評估方案你覺得有沒有國安上的問題跟考量"},{"start":8712.489,"end":8736.161,"text":"政府單位運作來講因為我們並不知道他完整方案的規劃是什麼他的傳輸的路徑是什麼他在菲律賓設置的場區在哪裡這必須要有一個全面的評估才有辦法來說明那因為我們還沒有被智慧到去參加相關會議的討論所以我的資訊非常的有限所以說你們在經濟部長提出這樣子規劃可能是那我問你一個問題這有沒有涉及到國安"},{"start":8737.816,"end":8761.39,"text":"這樣子的規劃有沒有涉及到國安要看它的內容不是嘛你一個電力有沒有涉及到國安嘛臺灣的電力的發送有沒有涉及到國安廣義來講有涉及到關鍵基礎設施有涉及到關鍵基礎設施當然就有涉及到國安那你現在跟我講打這些模糊仗有什麼意思那不是打模糊仗這是因為這個案子還沒有"},{"start":8761.69,"end":8790.344,"text":"所以我問嘛那他們今天經濟部要推一個方案那這個方案可能會跟國安基礎建設有關係沒有先知會國安局沒有先告訴你們他的方案是什麼然後就擅自的在外面去講這件事情那這樣子請問有其道理可言嗎那有沒有把你們國安局有沒有把我們國家的安全放在眼裡呢這是今天這件事情會引發引發很大爭議的原因之一嘛"},{"start":8791.585,"end":8810.267,"text":"我們尊重他們的評估跟準備計畫不是你們尊重他們的評估的問題你們也要去詢問對方說這到底是怎麼一回事嗎如果所有都是只是尊重對方的話那別人都坐下去了那你國安單位才發現說這不可以請問要怎麼收回成名納稅錢都花下去的時候那請問你國安局要怎麼樣"},{"start":8810.788,"end":8834.526,"text":"可以理解委員的擔心但政府的運作不是這樣他一定會有一個評估跟整備的過程不然人家已經講出去了公開的論壇大大方方講昨天發生的事情啊對 業管單位對外的說明我們尊重在這個階段他怎麼樣做評估那後續假如需要國安局來提供意見我們會積極的來參與那你們要積極的告訴對方詢問他這個事情到底是怎麼回事啊"},{"start":8835.026,"end":8856.982,"text":"好我們尊重業管單位相關的計畫推動的進程不是你們不是要去尊重對方的計畫是這個事情是會影響到基礎設施的所以你們要去問對方他們到底想幹嘛對有涉及到基礎設施的問題否則人家已經是坐下去了花了預算了跟AIT都溝通好了你們才發現跟國安的事情有問題的時候又把他停下來"},{"start":8857.983,"end":8866.916,"text":"那這不是就產生了很大的矛盾嗎了解委員的問題啦但問題是很清楚但事實上這組的運動不是像我講的這樣子會有完整的評估會有完整的評估那過去承攬的公司叫做四方電訊"},{"start":8873.826,"end":8901.136,"text":"我過去就揭露過這家公司跟中國大陸有很多的合作往來的業務未來是否會要求經濟部在海底電纜的合作業務選擇上面不應該跟中共有經貿的往來以保護國家的安全對就關鍵基礎設施來講資安管理法來講確實就關鍵基礎設施的採用的設備相關的零組件都不能有涉入的背景可是現在是這樣子耶"},{"start":8902.228,"end":8919.835,"text":"對,假如有真正社會背景的話就必須要確實的相關的事證來證明那請問現在我就告訴你現在就是這樣嗎我先前提供過資料給你們看就是如此嗎那請問有沒有要去調整會不會去調整我們會來掌握有沒有相關違意堂或違法的狀況"},{"start":8920.595,"end":8948.481,"text":"但我沒有調我不是司法警察機關我沒有調查權那有相關的資訊我們會給司法警察機關那我在給你嘛自己不查網路上有的東西那我在給你嘛對上次我有提在提問的時候有提到這一點對嘛那我意思是說你做基礎設施的公司那你同時又跟中國大陸有聯繫有一起在做相關的服務那我怎麼知道會不會內神通外鬼這是大家都質疑的事情"},{"start":8949.481,"end":8968.887,"text":"接下來我要問一下文化統戰的事就不要放在那張powerpoint上面有錯字韓國瑜院長說過中華民國是我們的國美麗台灣是我們的家中華文化是我們的根民主自由是我們的寶局長請問你認同這四句話嗎"},{"start":8969.887,"end":8972.088,"text":"我問第三句中華文化是我們的根這句話請問局長認不認同那我只問中華你認不認"},{"start":8988.116,"end":9002.908,"text":"國安本好你說是這樣對不對可是呢你卻說國安局警示中共文化統戰手法多元前移默化影響臺灣青年你說呢好這個呢中國文化也是一種這個統戰手法"},{"start":9005.33,"end":9033.974,"text":"那請問中華文化是統戰手法這句話是從何而來我們講的是中共文化的統戰手法多元我們不是講中華文化是一種統戰我剛也在跟馬文君委員說明文化交流跟文化統戰是兩件不一樣的事情你裡面講到抗日歷史就是中共統戰是嗎那民國113年就是賴清德總統說的民國113年的歷史裡面有沒有包含抗日"},{"start":9034.674,"end":9044.001,"text":"我們在談所謂的文化統戰有一個重點跟委員說明有些這種統戰活動它發起的單位就是中共中央相關單位那是單位的問題但你談到的是舉辦座談研討抗日歷史也算在內啊要看它主辦單位是什麼所以是主辦單位的問題所以你在這個新聞裡面你談到的就是錯誤的嘛沒有沒有"},{"start":9055.229,"end":9083.974,"text":"談抗日歷史可以但是主辦單位如果他有同戰色才不行主辦單位跟相關的議題以及他們討論的角度那很有可能中共就是會透過這些文化的議題來包裝進行相關的統戰灌輸中共相關的政治意識形態那我最後再問你幾個例子好不好那我請問一下喔這個媽祖遶境算不算統戰台灣自己的宮廟的媽祖遶境嗎對啊但他們經常也會去大陸交流啊"},{"start":9084.953,"end":9096.179,"text":"對我剛才一直在強調立場很清楚正常的交流我們都尊重沒有意見但是有偽議場甚至違法的我們會注意那SHE唱中國話算不算統戰周杰倫的本草綱目算不算統戰"},{"start":9097.765,"end":9116.997,"text":"那文化交友文化活動我剛才已經一再的強調我們沒有意見所以中國話也不算本朝綱目也不算好再下一個我們沒有意見那我們平常的豆漿油條跟筷子也不算同在嗎中國文化不算同在我剛才就講過了正常文化活動正常文化交友沒有意見那四大民主水滸傳紅樓夢三國演藝跟西遊記不算同在"},{"start":9117.617,"end":9145.888,"text":"委員,文化活動跟文化統戰要分清楚那這個玩黑神話悟空的呢這個有爭議喔有些人認為這是文化統戰的一環電玩它的分級我們尊重業管機關的分級那但是我們需要提醒就那個黑悟空的整個的遊戲出來之後有很多的徵訊操作是在做統戰他們甚至說台灣就是因為沒有中國文化深度才做不出這種東西來這不是統戰什麼叫統戰"},{"start":9146.608,"end":9160.736,"text":"所以你認為在玩黑悟空的人發表這些言論的算是同戰的言論我講的是正義訊息我不要擴大講成是電亂玩家我在提供沒有最後30秒那愛奇藝使用者跟抖音使用者算不算同戰"},{"start":9161.584,"end":9166.286,"text":"接下來要進行後續宣達前本席先宣告待會在陳冠廷委員宣達結束後我們休息5分鐘接下來進行宣達委員林益君委員"},{"start":9211.136,"end":9221.618,"text":"謝謝主席 有請局長來 局長請主席 另外一人早"},{"start":9223.288,"end":9242.543,"text":"局長早首先先跟局長請教一些時事的問題用賴慶德總統最新的主國論的說法前兩天中共在我們的主國中華民國的海空域舉行了環台軍演國防部當然是全程都有緊盯那國安局是不是也有掌控"},{"start":9243.263,"end":9259.165,"text":"有,我們跟國防部都保持密切的聯繫我們甚至互派人員在掌握中共軍事相關的動態那一開始也跟陳永康委員有報告到我們大概在演習之前透過中共相關基建活動的部署"},{"start":9259.525,"end":9282.609,"text":"那已經有預判到可能會有怎麼樣樣態的演習那請教局長一下因為這次中共的軍演有一些比較奇怪的地方跟以前比較不太一樣的就是說沒有公佈演習的具體位置還有沒有公佈演習的時間的範圍還有沒有公佈演習的性質然後這次除了這樣環台軍演之外也是中共海警首次實施了環島的巡航管控那請問局長"},{"start":9286.81,"end":9310.15,"text":"這是不是在為以後有可能發生的封鎖戰做演練呢?也就是說中國企圖以執法難解為名行封鎖之時同時可以用軍隊作為支撐的力量避免落入發起軍事行動的口實還有一個本席覺得比較奇怪的就是太巧合了就是在軍演的那一天那時候那麼剛好有一個大陸的偷渡客在金門上岸被困"},{"start":9314.454,"end":9331.311,"text":"那是不是同時會有一個軍演還有海警的巡航還有偷渡客複雜的情況那據我這樣觀察那是不是就是中國在測試台灣能不能同時處理從軍方到民間的多樣態威脅那局長你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":9331.671,"end":9346.061,"text":"是,真的非常謝謝委員剛剛分享的觀察那這一次的軍演我們確實有跟過去的軍演來做一個比較那我一開始也跟媒體朋友說明這軍演的時間是比較短的事實上他有講時間就是10月14號"},{"start":9347.442,"end":9368.221,"text":"以我們比照他們過去對外說明的我們的觀察經驗來講應該就是一天的演習那第二點是他們的演習區域範圍比起過去的幾次演習來講範圍是有比較小而且他的範圍特別劃定在我們重要港口的外圍這也是剛剛有其他委員說這是不是有所謂要遇要港"},{"start":9368.601,"end":9388.144,"text":"封控的一個做法這也是我們觀察的重點那第三點是委員剛剛很正確的提出來這次的軍演除了海空軍的基建以外他有特別動用到海警船舶來參加這次的演練那總共台灣的外圍部分剛剛張署長也提到了有12艘的海警船"},{"start":9388.824,"end":9417.066,"text":"事實上還要再加上東引跟馬祖再各兩艘再加四艘所以整體在演習過程當中確實是運用海警船來進行一些灰色地帶的洗腦主要的目的可能就在凸顯他對於台海的實質的管控權所以我們在注意的是除了軍事的脅迫以外中共對於這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰的操作也是我們這一波在因應中共演習過程當中另外一個戰場"},{"start":9418.447,"end":9437.766,"text":"好,那我今天也在業務報告中看到說你們多少提到就是你們有包括COVID-19之後中國的經濟復甦已經不如預期了在高科技的領域上又被美國圍堵還有加上中國政府現在在打房的力道比較猛所以全國的房地產幾乎都被打趴了"},{"start":9438.146,"end":9466.763,"text":"然後中共對於又不斷的收緊安全管控導致民生就是人民的生活越來越苦那我想請問局長在這樣的狀況下你認為是不是又會繼續出現有一些投奔自由台灣的中共偷渡客呢是不是會持續發生因為我最近發現對岸偷渡到不管是偷渡到金門還是偷渡到台灣這種案例不少根本就是已經開始現象化的趨勢而且台灣現在都沒有接納政治難民的法源依據"},{"start":9467.443,"end":9483.242,"text":"然後這些偷渡課裡面可能有一些握有重要情資的像是6月偷渡來的阮芳永當過解放軍的潛艦的艦長對解放軍的潛艦的戰術戰法他一定是非常的熟悉但是從逮捕收容起訴到判決"},{"start":9484.383,"end":9485.404,"text":"這些偷渡客是來打探情資的呢還是來投誠的呢?"},{"start":9500.194,"end":9517.089,"text":"好就那個整個中共內部的經濟情勢確實像委員所提到的他是處在一個比較低檔的一個狀態那雖然中共的中央提出很多的一個經濟改善的一個措施那看起來成效並沒有非常的好"},{"start":9517.529,"end":9545.708,"text":"那特別在8月份他們公布的青年失業率高達18點多%這數字已經經過美化竟然還有18點多%的青年失業率而且8月公布還不包括9月的畢業潮所以確實看到他們現在有青年躺平的現象對於政府的一些經濟措施非常的不滿那第二點是這樣子會不會去鼓勵有一些對岸的人士到台灣來進行一些投奔自由或非法入境的一個動作"},{"start":9546.748,"end":9574.052,"text":"這部分我們也跟國安團隊有密切的注意今年為止應該就有八件這種中共中國大陸民眾來非法入境的一個狀況那一般一進來之後就要送到檢調單位來進行偵辦由地方法院來裁判是不是違反入出國管理法所以我們有一個法律機制來應處委員提到第三個重點是要是這些人來有重要的軍事情資的話那國安單位怎麼來掌握"},{"start":9574.372,"end":9597.632,"text":"那委員提到的那一位軟性的入籍的人士他因為有解放軍的背景也確實正如委員所說的媒體也有報導他有針對共軍的一些部署跟活動那有陳述一些他的觀察那更有人說明的是院方已經把相關的資料送到國安局來那我們也把相關提供的所謂的情資來做進一步的分析好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":9599.554,"end":9601.696,"text":"原景基金會和亞太和平研究基金會這兩個基金會我們一般認知算是國安局的外圍的智庫"},{"start":9620.971,"end":9644.778,"text":"沒有他們是民間的社團那國安局跟其他政府單位一樣跟這兩個基金會有一些委託研究的關係那遠景基金會跟亞太和平研究基金會他們的預算是哪裡來的還有每年有編列預算給他們嗎還是藉由不同部會的委託案維持他的運作那國安局有沒有委託這兩個單位在做相關研究的計劃案呢"},{"start":9645.618,"end":9665.465,"text":"我們有委託一些研究案給這兩個單位因為前面這個基金會他是比較涉及到國際相關的情勢或區域情勢的研判後面這個單位是比較涉及到對於中國大陸內部情勢還有一些兩岸關係的研判所以對於這兩個機構我們有一些委託合作的計畫來請他們協助我們"},{"start":9667.526,"end":9688.138,"text":"好那局長你知道這些官方和半官方的智庫其實都是在做學術研究然後應該都有學術的期刊產生譬如法務部調查局就有展望與探索的月刊國防研究院也有國防安全雙週報跟戰略與評估那同樣國安局遠景基金會也有固定發行遠景期刊"},{"start":9690.399,"end":9709.59,"text":"然後相對來講亞太和平基金會就比較神秘你要請官局長亞太和平基金會的學術出版是什麼我的印象我沒有辦法替他來說明但我的印象他們好像也有一些比較簡單的出版品也有但有沒有對外發言我要再確認一下因為我記得好像是因為沒有出版品所以"},{"start":9712.537,"end":9738.337,"text":"我現在看遠景基金會跟亞太基金會大致上其實他們是分工一個是對美一個是對中國大陸那最近來兩岸關係都陷入一個冰點了沒有辦法平凡的到大陸交流那這個前提下是不是至少又有一些學術產生那局長能不能解釋為什麼亞太基金會最近這幾年的學術研究都是趨近零呢而且基金會這裡面的研究員平常都是在做些什麼事情"},{"start":9738.977,"end":9763.741,"text":"因為他是民間的單位我不適合來替他做說明那我們是跟政府其他單位一樣來做一些委託那特別強調是一些學術的委託的計畫因為也跟委員報告我們一般不太特別去強調本局、國安局跟外面單位的關係因為這很有可能會讓這個單位遭到中共相關的制裁或相關後續動作的干擾所以請委員能夠理解"},{"start":9764.201,"end":9776.228,"text":"好,所以你們就是只委託他們在做一些相關的一個計劃案,然後他們是民間的就對了?對,學術的單位,是。那我再最後問一個問題,就是想請教一下,就是關於"},{"start":9779.158,"end":9779.938,"text":"國安局有掌握嗎還有朝鮮半島的穩定也會牽動到臺灣的安全"},{"start":9808.824,"end":9832.451,"text":"這樣的話請教局長你認為南北韓關係會不會繼續惡化甚至爆發衝突呢因為剛剛黃委員也在指教這個議題我們有在關注因為確實從去年八九月之後北韓的動作就非常的多那我們會持續的來關注北韓會不會進一步冒進的動作特別因為接下來這個月是美國大選期間那怕北韓會故意製造一些可能的衝突事件"},{"start":9833.291,"end":9834.892,"text":"局長請回接下來建議詢答委員是陳冠廷委員"},{"start":9875.764,"end":9875.984,"text":"請局長來 局長請"},{"start":9883.516,"end":9905.01,"text":"這位主席蔡委員好 局長好 剛才有幾位委員問到這一個潛艦艦長的這個清匯的福建沿海軍事署要交給國安局那在這一次中共的軍演那這次中共軍演進了海巡也有查獲到中國的偷渡犯那做灰色地帶的青囊那我想請教的是說關於這個潛艦艦長清匯的這個部署圖是真的還是假的"},{"start":9909.306,"end":9934.473,"text":"這因為涉及到法院給我們的相關文件我不適合多來公開說明但是因為它有涉及到對於一些中共軍事狀況的一些意見我們會來做進一步的研析因為它是由法院正式行文給我們的有法院正式行文給的對不對對那但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":9938.446,"end":9962.675,"text":"我看這個國會的麥克風可能真的要修理一下了不管是這個還是這個都好謝謝謝謝局長那我必須強調一下這一個不管是中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的這些他們背景海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好那他們帶來的情資對我們來講他還是有一定的重要性那我還是希望說未來這樣子的狀況"},{"start":9963.955,"end":9987.467,"text":"國安局能夠把他系統整理起來有一個標準的應變措施有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假亂訊息或者是說他只是要用這樣子的方式用這樣子的做法那大量的偷渡客過來之後那他會說他們要來投誠這些研習的話這些研擬的這些範圍我們很難去講說只有一個國安局一個要做報案調查局都要做這個背景的查核"},{"start":9987.807,"end":9988.687,"text":"那從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的這一個中國來的男子"},{"start":10007.853,"end":10015.156,"text":"我必須說是從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島再進入北部的我們最精華的這個輸入地區所以這都是已經有系統性的在我這部分還是希望說局長能夠聯合其他的包含海巡等等的"},{"start":10036.784,"end":10060.397,"text":"全面性的去做偵訪這個有這個有那第二點就是針對這個環台軍人這個環台軍人我剛剛聽到很多委員一起來去詢問那看起來是我們國安局有事先得知有這樣的啟示是這樣的我們有綜合研判有綜合研判那除了我們知道時間我們知道地點我們要知道他的意圖是什麼我想請問局長他的意圖是什麼是封鎖是隔離是阻斷是自由是"},{"start":10062.317,"end":10086.263,"text":"這個進行這個外島的奪取還是進行登陸作戰的準備他的意圖要分政治的跟軍事的那在政治的部分來講那我剛也跟媒體朋友在說明我們注意到中共在看台灣的問題跟國際社會存在很大的一個落差那國際社會對於台灣的相關的政策表現都認為非常的沉穩非常的務實那非常的溫和但中共把它認為是一種挑釁"},{"start":10086.883,"end":10105.528,"text":"所以第一個在政治上我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全的不一樣那因為這樣的情況之下在國際社會支持台灣之下中共在政治上透過這個軍演一方面來對內交代一方面來對台施壓另一方面來對國際市井軍事上軍事上這部分剛剛也很多委員"},{"start":10106.108,"end":10124.486,"text":"在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這一次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這一次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的謝謝局長"},{"start":10124.906,"end":10149.718,"text":"我看這一個包含美太平洋的陸軍司令扶林上將有提到他說這一次中共的軍演也不是這一次這一系列的軍演是漸進式的陰險且不負責任的那不負責任當然是說包含沒有事先提供預警那很多其實一般的民航這些都不知道說原來他今天而且像各位報告美國國防部特別強調的是認為中共的這個軍事演習是過度反應"},{"start":10150.538,"end":10159.563,"text":"所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的這至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮俄羅斯其實在這一系列的這一次的軍演當中"},{"start":10180.333,"end":10203.145,"text":"都有某種程度是配合有可能是揚動那就我所知朝鮮跟中國的關係目前沒有這麼樣的友善但是在跟俄羅斯之間的關係是有在配合的所以如果中國跟俄羅斯跟朝鮮他們在這樣的狀況之下做情報共享甚至是有共同軍演的未來的這個傾向存在的話請問局長我們該怎麼應對應該是這麼講好了"},{"start":10206.487,"end":10231.753,"text":"當局長你在跟其他的國家的情資單位在交流的時候是不是可以利用這樣子的機會跟他們說當這個俄羅斯朝鮮還有這個包含伊朗在內如果他們都某種程度在情報上面都開始有共享的機制甚至連演練都有共享演練的機制的時候是不是我們能夠加強情報分享的力度加強海上演訓的力度甚至加強"},{"start":10235.915,"end":10258.31,"text":"對,就剛剛委員提到可能中二潮或一相關的演習的話我們現在特別在注意的是中共跟俄國他確實有一些演訓的活動包括海軍的演訓甚至是海警船的演訓他們才剛剛進行聯合的巡弋剛剛快要結束任務這大概是第一關注的重點"},{"start":10259.37,"end":10288.269,"text":"確實我們會跟國際友盟在戰略溝通跟情報分享上會保持密切的聯繫局長我的意思是說希望你藉由這個機會藉由他們包含中國還有朝鮮還有俄羅斯共同洋動的這個這樣子的挑戰的時候把這樣的機會跟他們講說他們都在做的時候我們不能不做我為什麼特別這樣講就是包含這個麥肯前美國的參議員那一去世的麥肯他不斷的強調從2014年到之後他一直強調說當普丁他的"},{"start":10288.809,"end":10314.056,"text":"意念很堅持就是要把整個烏東要重回那個俄羅斯的帝國的榮耀的時候美國的情報單位也好不斷的說我們必須要遏制我們自己的這個意圖就是我們不可以把太多的情報給烏克蘭不然會導致局勢的升級就是因為這樣子讓普丁能夠漸進式的來去侵擾這個烏克蘭所以我必須強調利用這樣子的挑戰的時候把現在把過去的他們做錯的事情"},{"start":10315.196,"end":10337.742,"text":"過去我們可以彌補的錯誤來提出來說那現在更加要加強我方跟包含菲律賓包含日本的情緒共享最後再一個部分局長昨天還有一個消息跟委員講的部分我們跟委員講的部分一分一秒鐘跟委員講的部分我們在機密報告已經有把相關的成果做很完整的呈現我剛剛還有在對我是說你用這個機會跟他講你剛剛沒有注意到我在那邊嗎"},{"start":10339.042,"end":10339.643,"text":"目前我沒有看到這樣的問題"},{"start":10357.543,"end":10381.091,"text":"那個真的是正義訊息的操作任日作戰目前沒有嘛但是2022年中共環台軍演的時候有18條航線受到控制那是因為是整個是實彈的而且又封鎖區域比這一次大很多如果是這樣的話經濟上面的影響還有進出口會不會受到影響就是針對封鎖封控我們有沒有相關的反制的做法有這部分我們國安單位有在討論一直都有在討論有在討論有沒有方案"},{"start":10383.012,"end":10402.339,"text":"有就針對不同的可能的封控的方式那以及我們怎麼來應應的一些方案有在討論有在討論可不可以把相關的方案跟我們分享一下因為這部分包括國防部在漢光也不斷的在做實際的編隊不是討論而已而是要做實兵的演練把那個相關的這個針對這樣的封控我們的計劃是怎麼樣去反制"},{"start":10406.741,"end":10434.927,"text":"你可不可以給我們一個報告讓我們到辦公室來瞭解一下好我們就分析的角度給委員參考但國防部的實作部分可能要我們不需要實作至少從分析的角度我們要一個說法不要讓民眾說當只要他們封控的話我們沒有任何的方式可以去做應對好不好這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後在跟其他國家交流的時候知道說我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才可以增加我們反封控的能量這個是對話交流都還是需要的好不好應該這樣"},{"start":10436.067,"end":10462.517,"text":"那這個部分我必須再強調齁這個這次演習齁這個我還是把那個日本的那個圖片有沒有啊來分享給他們看喔其實這個日本防衛社的統和幕僚監部都有發布相關的這樣子的圖示齁那剛才陳宏康委員也把這個共同圖像不斷的強調那我認為啊其實包含陸海空軍可能在這個共同圖像的部分齁還有給民眾"},{"start":10464.107,"end":10488.786,"text":"我們用文字來去形容的時候我們不知道說它實際上的威脅在哪裡我們不知道我們實際上面臨的風險在哪裡其實這一次包含我們的股市我們的金融的反應都是非常的強韌的其實基本上沒有受到影響反而是中國方面受到影響但是我認為這有兩個可能性第一個是我國民不知道風險第二個是我國政府應對得以那我認為我們的政府當然是應對得以但是我們的國民有沒有知道風險"},{"start":10489.787,"end":10504.895,"text":"那怎麼樣知道風險藉由包含我們之前提到的我們前幾天就知道說中國的聯合力艦兵環台軍演會直接實施了嘛都有可能有情資都會知道所以我們透過不管是國安局等等我們必須要有相關的這些情資的分享給民眾"},{"start":10506.156,"end":10531.655,"text":"會有影響?什麼樣的影響?包含在以色列最近的這些衝突裡面他們有一個叫全民防線的這些APP就是讓他們知道說到時候遇到真的是有真正的侵擾的時候離他們最近的避難地點在哪裡還有水、糧、油還有等等的軍事的這些狀況是為何我想這個部分國安局還是可以做一個重整這就涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺這個我們來出"},{"start":10533.396,"end":10553.635,"text":"我們不希望不知不覺我們希望有警覺我們也不希望說雖然說他這24小時就結束但是剛才聽到包含23個小時24小時之內嘛就結束了但是從他們在夜間演練的頻度強度還有離我國的這一個領域的藥業藥港的這個接近度接迫程度是越來越"},{"start":10554.315,"end":10555.576,"text":"最後一個問題就是針對這個我們可能要從電纜然後從國外建立電廠這件部分"},{"start":10571.852,"end":10573.293,"text":"陳冠廷委員我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":10654.585,"end":10655.075,"text":"跟這個有沒有關係"},{"start":11009.295,"end":11031.281,"text":"好我們恢復開會接下來進行詢答的委員是黃國昌委員謝謝主席有請局長國家局局長蔡局長"},{"start":11038.438,"end":11060.365,"text":"謝謝主席委員長也許我們上一次討論的主題也就是關鍵基礎設施對我們的國家安全非常的重要2023年我們修正了22項法律針對關鍵基礎設施我們要強化對他們的保護避免我們的關鍵基礎設施成為勞動攻擊的對象癱瘓國家臺灣整體的國家防衛的能力"},{"start":11067.007,"end":11082.159,"text":"上次我跟您提過包括了軍港軍機場、導彈基地這些軍事設備為什麼沒有納入關鍵基礎設施然後您跟我說你會回去討論、會去了解這是我們上一次諮詢的進度"},{"start":11085.699,"end":11110.615,"text":"這兩天老共對台灣發動軍事演習的時候左手邊的照片是我們的電視新聞台的記者拍我們的左營軍港的照片這個照片登出來了以後一直在關心台灣國家安全的一群學者就公開發出質疑這個是什麼這是台灣主力軍港的海警第一排嗎"},{"start":11111.716,"end":11127.141,"text":"他為什麼會提出這樣子的質疑那這樣的質疑是說如果到時候發生狀況的時候他在這麼短的距離當中根本不用保彈射用尖射飛彈就直接打到我們的軍艦"},{"start":11131.576,"end":11157.627,"text":"這個是為什麼上次我跟你談關鍵基礎設施附近我們必須要把它列管非常重要的理由對於學者所提出這樣子的憂慮局長認為有沒有道理還是杞人憂天他們在上面講的很直接堅設飛彈直接站在這個記者拍的這個地方直接往下面軍艦打下去就擊中了覺得這樣子的憂慮有沒有道理"},{"start":11158.38,"end":11159.201,"text":"那除了重視以外呢?"},{"start":11176.468,"end":11178.789,"text":"需要多久?所以你就只能反映給他們嗎?當然對所以主責的應該是國防部部長是嗎?"},{"start":11195.715,"end":11209.376,"text":"以國防部為主要的業管機關你上次跟國防部討論了以後針對我們上次所討論出來的該劃進關鍵基礎設施的沒有劃進去的這件事情國防部給你的回應是什麼說他們也會重視"},{"start":11210.65,"end":11237.675,"text":"國防部針對一些軍事設施他們有他們自己的所謂軍方的關鍵設施的概念在那委員上次我們在討論的是針對行政院系統的關鍵設施那我記得除了委員以外應該洪森和委員也在注意那個台馬的海底電纜部分那這部分在9月會議我們已經有積極的反應我們一樣一樣來啦就是說我還是希望國安局可能要告訴我們相關的部會"},{"start":11239.495,"end":11263.518,"text":"到底是一開始規劃的時候就有問題還是神經已經大調到知覺麻痺了到底是一開始規劃就有問題還是已經神經大調到知覺麻痺了與其花一堆資源去做宣傳去做propaganda不如把實際的事情做好這個是我的立場那為什麼這件事情重要因為"},{"start":11264.719,"end":11282.095,"text":"後來我打到相關部會的回函他們好像認為說兩岸人民關係條例相關的辦法有限制入資的法律依據現行法已經足夠了那國防部也有個要塞堡壘地帶法但問題"},{"start":11283.556,"end":11302.914,"text":"是什麼?問題是這個要塞堡壘地帶法有真的依照法律公告該公告的地方嗎?我把清單列出來了以後我發現情況就不是這個樣子第一個有該畫沒有畫的第二個有畫了以後該公告沒有公告的那第三個"},{"start":11305.137,"end":11329.128,"text":"即使公告了以後附近現建的規定是不是有具體的落實具體來講是什麼具體來講是我們空有法律空有口號沒有執行沒有執行這個是我希望國安局能夠去告訴相關部會不能放任這種荒謬的狀況繼續進行下去局長讚不讚好"},{"start":11332.845,"end":11339.366,"text":"主席站起來我只最後講一句話你有依法公告要塞堡壘附近卻高樓林立等於是要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範沒有被落實"},{"start":11361.175,"end":11389.102,"text":"沒有被落實的情況到底會變成什麼狀況就變成是要塞啊是關鍵基礎設施啊但是變成什麼海警第一排這個我覺得在國家安全上面國安局一定要重視跟其他部會說清楚該落實沒有落實就絕對是一件嚴重的事情局長可以嗎可以我們來反映好謝謝謝謝同國昌委員局長請回好接下來進行詢問委員賴世寶委員"},{"start":11398.535,"end":11424.637,"text":"謝謝主席,有請國安局的蔡局長來,局長請好,謝謝主席,老人好局長你好請問你啊,台灣的軍力在全世界排名第幾?看不同機構有不同的指標你隨便講一個都有,我看過的最強的,最前面的排名"},{"start":11426.267,"end":11434.514,"text":"我的印象應該大概在十幾左右我的印象我不知道有沒有最新的資訊我們的經貿實力大概十幾你知道嗎經貿實力"},{"start":11450.473,"end":11473.823,"text":"現在好像台灣是第22大經濟體吧?第16第16?謝謝委員我原來以為說我們軍事大概人家ranking也大概16左右請問以色列第幾?以色列的軍力全世界軍力第一名是不是?美國第二名呢?第二名"},{"start":11485.742,"end":11513.583,"text":"對阿我剛講的意思是我的印象已經是之前的前幾名大概不外就是美國啦齁俄國中共這些國家大概都這些國家大概會因為指標的不同會順序會有調整我沒有什麼陷阱給你啦就是我們問很前線的問題阿對但我的印象是之前的印象對就是如果沒有含核武第二名是老共啦如果含核武第二名是俄羅斯啦就大概這個樣子啦齁"},{"start":11514.904,"end":11540.281,"text":"那以我們這樣子我們不管是30、60、80、20的台灣也不會有外賣啊啊為什麼就立憲2024年這樣叫做世界的這樣要脖子給我繞到在那裡你給我們賣穿整個我們都是談評啦我們要做什麼事你不是說哎呀我跟你Lock allLock住馬上所有的大台抓台"},{"start":11541.673,"end":11568.009,"text":"變成我們的國防部 國安單位變成一個播報員怎麼會這個樣子 阿都閃停阿 你看這個沒有 國防部都有他的一個應酬的機制 都有所謂應酬 老百姓看到說 他越來越靠近了2028沒有這麼靠近就2022縮起來了阿真的像螺柱或者雷柱都可以螺柱那種感覺阿 對不對 台灣老百姓不舒服阿"},{"start":11569.073,"end":11573.459,"text":"對中共對台的脅迫這個臺灣社會沒有人會接受啦但是問題你們是政府單位啊臺灣人民把這個所有的這記"},{"start":11584.213,"end":11589.457,"text":"委員說明那是情報情資的部分情報情資的部分我們當然盡可能透明化讓社會可以了解中共軍事動態這一部分國防部已經有一個對外說明的機制但是應處的部分國防部絕對有調動我們相關海空兵力以及鋼海巡署署長也特別強調了"},{"start":11612.354,"end":11628.053,"text":"沒有啦 因為我時間有限 我們的主席都很嚴格的 我趕快把他講完 我告訴你 老闆現在看到的時候 來 他給我跑來一英尺 我把他擋回去一英尺 按著釣 結果不是勒"},{"start":11628.993,"end":11633.937,"text":"各位說明一下所有的船艦喔 國防部這邊都沒有讓這些船艦進入到我們24海裡 完全沒有"},{"start":11647.947,"end":11649.688,"text":"請問你這次他提早收兵啊人家有人說這是虎頭蛇尾"},{"start":11677.302,"end":11693.606,"text":"對 我想中共在進行對台軍演我剛才跟其他委員做說明了不是只有用兩岸的框架在看他必須要考慮到區域跟國際政治所以各種因素我相信他都會列入評估他提早收兵是不是不願意有沒有這個選項"},{"start":11695.406,"end":11711.353,"text":"說台海不要變成美國的十月驚奇因為他們十一月要投票了October surprise他不要變成這個題目因為這可能各種可能性都有包括到就這個對都有各種可能性都有還有其他可能性這還包括到"},{"start":11712.253,"end":11733.234,"text":"在10月10號到12號剛好是東協峰會那個時間點也是不適合大動干戈在這邊軍演的而且東協峰會大家都會質疑中共在南海的擴張所以我可以說國安局長相信認為台海不願意老公不願意變成"},{"start":11737.097,"end":11755.85,"text":"這是委員的說法這是委員的說法但我跟委員說的是中共在進行軍演他的評估不是只有兩岸的問題他必須要有全面國際跟區域政治的一個評估這是我的觀點我很喜歡來問你可是你每次都不給答案有我盡量來回答謝謝委員我不到答案我不到便那個養豬我頭皮癢你就給我抓手我都不好"},{"start":11763.475,"end":11764.875,"text":"主席有請我們國安局局長來蔡局長請局長要喝個水嗎"},{"start":11792.541,"end":11810.444,"text":"對 委員長我想先跟請問幾個問題賴清德總統在520的談話當中希望重啟大陸學生來台就學請問局長就國安局的立場你們怎麼看是否歡迎入門來台對於兩岸正常的交流我們都保持尊重那也不會有任何意見有沒有掌握一些隱憂"},{"start":11811.805,"end":11835.442,"text":"交流過程當中我們當然也會去盤點過去交流過程當中有沒有一些有異常的案例那這部分我們會特別來做我想這個部分我希望得到你的態度剛剛你有說歡迎嗎對正常的交流沒有問題的交流社會交流我們都尊重好那另外想跟您請問一下國家安全的策略以及總體戰略跟政策到底我們現在是台美關係穩定為第一優先還是台海和平穩定為第一優先"},{"start":11835.802,"end":11838.023,"text":"那局長你是否同意把台灣推向戰爭不是一個愛台灣的表現?所以你同意這句話嗎?"},{"start":11858.127,"end":11874.114,"text":"對,我們不希望台海發生戰爭這也是為什麼維持台海和穩的現狀是我們對外政策優先的考量好,那我們最近有看到這個海軍司令堂華他有說到解放軍已經準備好了只要隨時願意就可以封鎖台灣的一個言論局長你怎麼看待這樣的說法"},{"start":11874.454,"end":11899.609,"text":"對我想就國防軍事的角度來講那我們的國軍單位一向都是料底重寬那對於中共各種可能的犯台的方案也都有做非常整命的評估不只是評估也會在實兵的漢光兵推的演習的過程當中去做驗證我想也有媒體指出因為聯合力艦現在A B陸續已經上場了以後有C有D有E有F我想"},{"start":11900.269,"end":11926.393,"text":"甚至有人預告一年當中可能會有三次軍演我們之間有掌握到任何的情資嗎這邊要跟委員特別講一下這個背景因為事實上中共在台海的軍事活動它除了是針對台灣以外它有它區域軍事戰略的考量包括在東海以及我們現在討論的台海以及南海它是整體在看的我們有沒有掌握到它有可能去做聯合利建CDEF"},{"start":11926.613,"end":11927.834,"text":"當然但是我想要強調的事情是當然"},{"start":11943.024,"end":11961.803,"text":"就像剛剛我們所說的我們台灣所有普遍民眾都是沒辦法認同這樣子恐嚇威脅的直播我們都一致的譴責這樣子的行為但是我要說明的是當我們掌握到它有可能軍演的頻繁次數增加的時候不管是不是聯合利劍哪怕是盾劍"},{"start":11963.104,"end":11963.384,"text":"你可以認同嗎?"},{"start":11983.551,"end":12008.708,"text":"委員講的確實也是我們在應處這些中共軍演一個很重要的一個考量也就是我們一定要堅持我們的底線捍衛我們的國家主權跟周邊海空域的安全但是過程當中必須要做相關必要的風險的控管所以我希望內部會議你不用跟我講你們講什麼但我希望你們要注重這個所謂的因為兩岸缺乏溝通了但如果有所謂的軍演變成擦槍走火SOP該怎麼辦"},{"start":12010.109,"end":12037.717,"text":"我們該如何降到最低我們該如何把這個誤會當下馬上處理這是很重要的一個SOP內部你們有在研議嗎國防部這邊對於共軍基建進階的一個應處的程序都有一套SOP那這套SOP是經過長年的一個運作的經驗所制定的套SOP那這個SOP現在看起來因為對岸也封鎖跟我們拒絕溝通嘛那這SOP你覺得還有用嗎有沒有需要更精進"},{"start":12038.237,"end":12055.721,"text":"是 我大概知道委員關切的那個問題意識在哪裡也就是說我們的SOP就是讓中共不能夠進犯到我們的二四海裡那跟委員報告的是在歷次這幾次的演習包括剛剛結束的2024B的演習共軍的基建都沒有讓他進來到二四海裡我知道"},{"start":12056.461,"end":12079.052,"text":"我知道剛剛你就有講了嘛24海里是我們絕對要堅守的那我現在就是說未來所發生的ABCDEF聯合利建這樣子的軍演次數增加的時候我們在沒有溝通管道的情況之下SOP能夠避免擦槍走火一定要再精進一定要再研議一下這個部分那最後我想請問一下目前國安局的情資中共對台動武"},{"start":12079.552,"end":12105.703,"text":"是否有相關的情資又是幾年內會發生有沒有這樣子的條件這樣子的啟動你們有沒有這樣的情資跟委員說明一下就中共目前我們看的各種情資並沒有情資來證明他即將在台海發動戰爭立即要發動戰爭沒有沒有這樣的情資但是他們各種的軍事準備或軍事的演訓不斷的在進行特別9月到10月這個階段他才剛剛完成"},{"start":12106.983,"end":12134.631,"text":"全軍戰略演習那目前還在做一些普測考的科目所以他們相關的動態我們都有完整的掌握局長辛苦了我們繼續來努力加油就經過我剛說的擦槍走火一定要避免全面捍衛中華民國我們一定認同好不好好謝謝我們的局長謝謝聽委員來局長請回接下來進行詢答委員鄭振強委員鄭振強委員鄭振強委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來進行詢答委員是洪森漢委員"},{"start":12151.609,"end":12179.747,"text":"謝謝主席那請蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 黃委員好嗯 局長今年5月齁我跟幾位委員包括中加病委員跟沈北洋委員我們開了一場記者會那這個記者會的內容其實就是要去指出這個中國製的起重機這個配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況"},{"start":12181.328,"end":12199.073,"text":"那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局航港局說這個啟動機的硬體是中國製的但軟體沒有中國製的我們後來去問好像也是用這個這是航港局的說法那局長其實這個事情也引起了美國眾議院的關注所以他們就港口的啟動機的問題"},{"start":12200.868,"end":12220.082,"text":"美國眾議院做了一年的調查在9月12號剛公布的報告裡面在這份報告裡面其實有寫說中國製的起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體局長這個額外的硬體你知道這個額外硬體是什麼你有看過這份報告嗎"},{"start":12221.209,"end":12249.247,"text":"我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容但我知道國際有在關注這個議題這個額外的硬體其實就是在後續維修時才裝起來的看起來是一個加強的設備所以在原本驗收出廠的時候看起來是正常的可是它是在維修的時候再把它裝上去所以相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡當然它的說法是我要方便遠端維修但事實上它是可以回傳資料回去中國的"},{"start":12250.327,"end":12278.767,"text":"這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說就算是非中國製的起重機有可能他如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險"},{"start":12279.648,"end":12289.533,"text":"局長這是一個很大的風險可是就像你剛剛回答我的你說你問了相關單位對不對你問了港港局他們說沒有聯網對 港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個"},{"start":12291.95,"end":12318.126,"text":"這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問"},{"start":12320.205,"end":12348.966,"text":"相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是"},{"start":12349.206,"end":12352.108,"text":"居然我想這事情可不可以請你再跟韓港局或者是我們這些"},{"start":12378.166,"end":12379.507,"text":"接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是"},{"start":12406.802,"end":12433.21,"text":"我們很清楚知道台灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫台灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作"},{"start":12434.622,"end":12449.269,"text":"我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題"},{"start":12451.8,"end":12477.669,"text":"這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛剛同學也在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員"},{"start":12479.167,"end":12506.107,"text":"如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎?局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎?局長"},{"start":12510.613,"end":12538.675,"text":"這部分業管是交換部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交換部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業他中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升"},{"start":12539.915,"end":12563.202,"text":"可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌"},{"start":12564.434,"end":12592.932,"text":"但他們一直覺得會被取代可是我說就像這一次美國原本港口的罷工的事件罷工事件也影響到他們物資的運送那還好現在後來當然後來解決所以這個供應鏈運輸的韌性的問題今天講的是我們就大部分被掐在中國及船員的身上的時候我們沒有歧視可是我們確實會懷疑真正當問題發生的時候或者是緊張發生的時候他會為我們工作嗎"},{"start":12594.844,"end":12624.304,"text":"所以局長你現在該怎麼辦同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度"},{"start":12625.605,"end":12645.616,"text":"要提出態度要告訴我們的國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中"},{"start":12647.352,"end":12675.996,"text":"可以嗎?這我們來注意我們要一個專案來去處理這個問題我們來注意好不好?好就像我在這邊現在要說的我要再說一次現在我們不談那個罷工的問題可是相對應的這些我剛才說到兩個部分請國安局研議全面清查我們的港口設施是否有中國製的監控設備如何來保障港口的安全它可能不是破壞你的關鍵基礎設施但它用一個額外的設施來監控你的關鍵基礎設施現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個下面這部分"},{"start":12677.056,"end":12695.191,"text":"局長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,我跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。"},{"start":12696.832,"end":12724.066,"text":"學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這件事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題"},{"start":12728.561,"end":12740.809,"text":"好謝謝洪森漢委員來局長請回接下來詢答委員高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在接下來進行詢答委員吳立華委員謝謝主席有請局長來局長請"},{"start":12760.229,"end":12786.823,"text":"蔡主席 委員好局長好我是山地原住民的立法委員那麼我相當關心國家的安全問題當然我也很關心我們原住民在這其中所扮演的角色所以我先找幾個新聞我念一下關鍵字你聽聽看有海峽兩岸少數民族交流協會收受廣西台辦"},{"start":12788.285,"end":12790.708,"text":"現金資助免費旅遊招待"},{"start":12792.062,"end":12818.641,"text":"競選後援會網路宣傳拉票委託指示贊助支付獎金匯入銀行帳戶回報競選進度討論選戰策略規劃甚至是看到判刑才5個月4個月一顆髮金緩刑5年局長中國借選看起來已經是明確的事實對吧"},{"start":12820.662,"end":12845.587,"text":"對那我們掌握到多少我們從去年到現在國安單位查辦的這些有關共諜包括借選的案件應該有八十幾件那判刑的結果起訴的大概應該有四十幾件那您覺得如何我們很辛苦收集情資然後每次送給檢調到了法院那我們的反滲透法看起來很像是塑膠啊"},{"start":12847.356,"end":12866.249,"text":"對,就目前的法律條文的規範來講我們當然必須在情報的部分來支援檢調單位來查查相關的案件盡量來鞏固那個法律要件那讓這些案件送到檢方跟院方比較容易遇案我這樣提出來就是希望國安局這個部分因為我們覺得這是破口話"},{"start":12868.846,"end":12893.765,"text":"你了解我的意思吧我知道那為什麼進來了其實在我們的立法院我講一句實在話大家也都實有所聞也是不爭的事實許多的助理也都會講出來太多太多的辦公室從以前到現在都能夠接得到國台辦的電話省台辦的電話有時候會問說好久沒來啦什麼時候帶人來啊"},{"start":12898.3,"end":12924.103,"text":"甚至他們說因為統戰的經費很多花不完要核銷這也都是不爭的事實對吧對就相關的一個兩岸的互動我剛才跟其他委員講正常的交流我們沒有意見但是只要涉及到這種滲透的有違反到反滲透法所謂的發展組織的借選的或是來善惑影響公共安全秩序的所以你們都有掌握"},{"start":12924.823,"end":12952.369,"text":"對這個部分的樣態我們會一直來持續關注因為我們也覺得原住民是個破口立法院更是個大破口啊因為我們常常可以看到新聞報導現在可能也都利用原住民的議題來去包裹那像這個之前引起公民團體抗議也是因為這樣的一個因素那我是要提到是說現在那個落地招待啊已經變了"},{"start":12954.042,"end":12971.748,"text":"我們地方的人都說哎喲怎麼那個大陸那邊都沒有喜歡我們老人了都要年輕人了他現在聚焦在元清對那你看看兩萬四千八新疆九天一般旅行社一模一樣的行程要六萬三千九百起"},{"start":12972.748,"end":12993.885,"text":"那我也知道說有很多校園統戰團有做相關系列報導那這些去的年輕人回來呢都說只是交朋友現在手段越來越柔軟了懷柔手段溫水煮蛙甚至他們自己去了還能說哎呀中國總算找到對的方法了"},{"start":12995.083,"end":13013.648,"text":"那請教一下國安局有掌握嗎有現在大概這方面的交流中共會特別鎖定到元清的部分那他們主要是透過一些文化的體育的那另外還有包括中共的地方的政府也會舉辦一些少數民族的文化活動來邀請元清過去"},{"start":13014.068,"end":13034.582,"text":"那這是第一部分主要的樣台第二部分是假如涉及到那個費用的部分那假如有一些協力團體來引介這些的交流活動那他是沒有相關理由的授權的證照的話這是我們另外一個查辦的重點那局長我在這邊只是要講我們都覺得好像"},{"start":13035.819,"end":13036.959,"text":"我舉個例子像是日本"},{"start":13051.952,"end":13076.503,"text":"或者是美國他們都在擔憂一件事情因為中資中國買了好多土地啊甚至是美國有66%的美國民意他們是希望能禁止中國在他們美國買土地局長我要跟你講這些年輕人假設他回來他的個資他當人頭我們現在有進法補償對不對是"},{"start":13079.555,"end":13088.488,"text":"這個禁法補償借名登記還看不出誰買你在日本買地在美國買地還看得出來喔我們這個原保地是要借人頭的"},{"start":13090.151,"end":13112.885,"text":"你們有沒有查過有多少有多少被中資買走沒有這部分假如中資或入籍人士要來採買我們的相關的不動產的話那內政部有個審查機制那我們會受邀去參加這個審查機制那審查重點就在於說採買的人有沒有黨政軍的背景採買的不動產是不是在重要的軍事設施敏感的設施周邊那局長我跟你講是"},{"start":13114.266,"end":13122.059,"text":"他們會不會買一些軍事像您知不知道連我們的關鍵設施都有可能被滲透他們有交流"},{"start":13126.661,"end":13144.165,"text":"國安局有掌握嗎?因為時間的關係我只是希望說我們都知道這些是認知作戰但是我們的國人都不怕那我覺得國安局你們掌握最多最多最多的情資都在你們的手上要揭露啊"},{"start":13144.485,"end":13144.905,"text":"有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":13170.043,"end":13193.203,"text":"可以在一周之內也可以來跟我說明掌握的情形好我們來一個穩做最後的報告謝謝局長謝謝主席好接下來進行詢答委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在接下來進行詢答委員是翁曉琳委員"},{"start":13205.824,"end":13209.527,"text":"有請局長沒有開喔這可能沒有電來 局長請"},{"start":13214.899,"end":13235.936,"text":"謝謝主席 歐委員好是 局長您好我想前兩天中共實施聯合立見的環台軍演其實也造成國內民眾的大家人心惶惶本席是有看見賴清德總統的臉書上面有PO了一個召開國安高層的會議照片"},{"start":13237.057,"end":13253.054,"text":"當中的局長和國防部部長、院長其實都在會議當中可是我在這邊想請教就是不知道你們有沒有討論出什麼結果你們要如何殺出重圍然後要怎麼樣突破中共對台灣的封鎖"},{"start":13253.795,"end":13270.847,"text":"有,跟委員說明一下因為這次的演習大概事前都有做一些情資的分析跟研判那也大概都知道在哪個時間點可能會發動怎麼樣的演習所以當天在國安高層會議的內容當中各單位都有做相關的提報那總統也有做指財式那也有對外說明"},{"start":13271.147,"end":13282.996,"text":"是我不知道你們會不會都是一些文人在談如何這個突破這個軍事封鎖在現場沒有看到好像有這個我們高階的將領在場參與討論沒有因為這個會議的現場是國安高層會議那主要是國防部長"},{"start":13289.241,"end":13290.161,"text":"國防部長來開會之前已經在國軍召開會議"},{"start":13311.667,"end":13327.599,"text":"這類的會議你們能夠有多點專業人士少點政治人物的口水在裡面都是各部會的首長非常專業接下來我想下一個議題就是最近其實行政院已經開始採取一連串的民防措施那麼從昨天在高中發這個年輕"},{"start":13328.72,"end":13329.34,"text":"國防部有對外說明並沒有所謂存放彈藥這件事情"},{"start":13351.571,"end":13377.984,"text":"對於6月30號但是現在是在作戰規劃裡面就有這種規劃所以在暫時的這個囤放彈藥的這個議題安全嗎從國安的角度來看到這件事情不重要嗎只有國家安全重要人民的生命財產安全都不重要嗎都很重要那接下來我想請教的就是說您知道我們近年來在這個彈藥庫曾經發生過我們的彈藥庫發生爆炸意外事件有多少件"},{"start":13379.026,"end":13405.219,"text":"這應該要國防部月管單要才有相關的數字我希望這不只是國安國防部的問題其實國安單委也要指導那本席在這邊告訴你我們這個有看了一個統計資料軍方在30年來彈藥庫的爆炸事件發生24件24次的事件有20人死亡89人輕重傷這其中還不包括就是中間有搬運彈藥等等這些所發生的意外的傷害所以呢本席要講就是說其實在宮廟存放彈藥"},{"start":13406.42,"end":13433.18,"text":"就安全性來講這是極其危險的不知道你們有沒有實際上告訴這些已經簽訂公廟協定的這些公廟主知道有這樣的一個狀況因為這是國防部的夜館我們還是尊重他們的一些這是一個國安高層這個會議它是涵蓋這些民防軍防等等這些全部都在內的所以我希望國安局要重視這些事情那接下來我們再看一下如果從法律的角度來講"},{"start":13434.341,"end":13463.636,"text":"根本不應該發聲可以在公廟存放彈藥從全民防衛動員準備法第29條裡面的規定就很清楚像圖書館療養院其他慈善機構的場所建築物設備還有人民日常生活所需的這些常會接觸到的設備就不應該存放然後接下來在國際法上同樣的在日內瓦公約裡面清清楚楚的講就是軍民要區分原則有一個軍民區分原則所以呢"},{"start":13463.976,"end":13484.528,"text":"民用物體還包含像對文物、宗教禮拜場所等等這些保護這是國家要做的事情民用物體不應該成為被攻擊、被報復的對象所以如果當我們的宗教場所、學校或是其他的慈善用途場所被利用為軍事用途的時候就可能成為軍事攻擊的目標"},{"start":13485.729,"end":13502.484,"text":"對啊但是國防部有說明說他們沒有說要去存放是那所以國安都沒有意見國安局都沒有意見這事情我真的覺得很不可思議這是整個國安的一環那接下來我要再講我後來理解這不是國防部的政策我還必須要說的就是說如果說是"},{"start":13504.085,"end":13530.319,"text":"在宮廟存放彈藥是這麼危險的事情當我們的學生可能未來被利用成為軍事攻擊目標的時候這件事情難道不應該要向民眾講清楚嗎要把這個事實的嚴重性要講清楚不要忘記了這聯合國他雖然說譴責哈馬斯這個有攻擊平民可是哈馬斯也是說我攻擊的對象也都是軍事對象"},{"start":13532.12,"end":13550.171,"text":"這個都是軍事目標所以呢這個部分的話希望國安高層在研商相關的議題的時候不能夠只是說由國防部我不知道賴部長我不知道這個顧立雄顧部長他到底了不了解相關的這個法律的問題還有這個軍事安全和人民安全的問題"},{"start":13550.851,"end":13575.266,"text":"這都必須要在國安高層會議的時候國安局也應該要提出你們的意見而不應該怠惰所以我們不希望當公廟未來成為人肉盾牌必須要積極地檢討公廟存放的代價和法律一句話就是各位說明一下全社會的防衛韌性跟全民接兵要去打仗這是兩個不同的概念那一混淆的話會造成一些不必要的社會恐慌事實上就是你們在混淆問題是你們在混淆你們在模糊那個界線"},{"start":13580.73,"end":13594.968,"text":"一旦發生戰爭的時候現在通過空中的定位量子地圖看得清清楚楚你哪一個宮廟哪一個學校裡面有存放彈藥他就很容易合理化這個就是軍事目標"},{"start":13595.869,"end":13602.895,"text":"對跟我們講的全社會熱線這是國際社會在俄羅斯戰爭中高度關注的議題但是沒有像台灣這麼的危險這個民進黨政府執政以來已經造成台灣已經成為全世界最危險的地方而且很平衡戰危所以這個議題對我們來說很重要我希望就是官員也能夠在盡快一個禮拜時間給我一個有關於法律的評估報告"},{"start":13621.311,"end":13622.151,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請蔡局長來 局長請"},{"start":13649.816,"end":13670.367,"text":"謝謝主席侯委員好蔡局長我特別看了一下我們國安局的業務報告其實國家安全是我們重中之重那我們也認為是說大家要共同來捍衛跟維護那其中我想請教一下是說對於我們不管是能源等相關的一些這種能源"},{"start":13671.027,"end":13690.352,"text":"算不算是重要的戰略物資因為我們有人講說電力國力這都非常重要是是是依照那個政案管理法我們剛提到的都是關鍵設施是關鍵設施那我不知道說局長有沒有看到說昨天這個經濟部部長講說我們要讓拉電纜或是說用船運輸這個電從菲律賓從外國回來到臺灣供我們臺灣的這個企業使用有沒有相關的"},{"start":13701.935,"end":13725.837,"text":"有看到這樣的報導我們之前有評估過嗎?從國外來輸入電給我們台灣2300萬人使用對因為這個是可能經濟部在評估的方案那還沒有啟動到一個機制請國安局去提供意見那假如有的話我們會提出我們的但是部長也不用他就直接對讓公眾都知道所以說現在大家都知道哇原來部長有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":13726.357,"end":13740.408,"text":"所以第一他沒有跟國安局這邊討論過或說國安局沒有收到經濟部有正式還沒有還沒有沒有那第二現在大家也都知道了那局長以您專業的角度來判斷一下我們跟菲律賓沒有邦交"},{"start":13741.505,"end":13763.892,"text":"菲律賓兩年前他們的領導人對於相對來說他是比較親中國大陸的政策的現在的領導人相對來講是跟中國大陸的關係比較淡但是菲律賓的一個政經情勢您的通篇的一個業務報告裡面也都在講我們政經情勢跟我們國家的安全的部分菲律賓"},{"start":13764.952,"end":13779.35,"text":"跟我們的關係有沒有真的很close到如果說我們今天有10%的電力20%的電力是由菲律賓這邊運輸進來他有辦法確保是說他會一直運輸嗎因為我們現在還不知道提供給予我們現在還不太知道"},{"start":13782.975,"end":13787.441,"text":"因為這個就已經牽涉到國際情勢那如果說菲律賓這個國家跟我們沒有那麼close甚至他們不是我們的邦交國的時候"},{"start":13799.358,"end":13816.213,"text":"那今天如果假設他有他的領導人換了然後變成是比較親中國大陸你的通篇報告裡面都認為中國大陸是我們現在最大的家鄉敵那這樣子會不會我們的經濟我們的發電命脈國家安全的重要的物資跟能源被掌握在別人的手上"},{"start":13817.593,"end":13834.04,"text":"這樣到底是強化民主夥伴的合作關係還是弱化我們的國家安全理解委員的關切以及背後的那個問題意識我充分理解但因為我看那個經濟部可能他還在初步的一個如果經濟部報上來以國安單位專業評估你會怎麼建議"},{"start":13838.161,"end":13854.933,"text":"我們會先看經濟部的內容到底方案是什麼比如說剛委員提到的是日本是菲律賓那放在哪一個地點那那個地點的基礎設施完不完善那以及可能連通的管道網絡該怎麼鋪設這要有一個全面的方案在評估比較能夠從國安的角度來發揮"},{"start":13856.594,"end":13881.013,"text":"有講的也沒講耶對阿但這是業力經過整顧過程局長不用那麼的小心啦我現在很直接的講我說實在話我們都還沒有講因為也有媒體就已經講是說哇好像3月4月5月已經有廠商去菲律賓有做前期投資喔所以現在部長去講的話是不是跟這個廠商有一問一答是要拉抬股價還是什麼不知道"},{"start":13881.673,"end":13909.947,"text":"但是至少從國安的角度來說能源電力我們有辦法依賴你今天不是在台灣今天在台灣有任何一個電廠大家就已經叫翻了就沒有想到我們居然是說遠在幾百公里別的國家不是我們的領土我們要把我們的電放在那邊然後靠著是合約靠著是商業模式把那個電給買回來那如果說今天有任何的狀況我都不講說甚至海底電纜有沒有什麼樣的一個問題"},{"start":13911.368,"end":13935.233,"text":"你覺得這對於國安來講到底他是增強我們的國安還是催化我們的國安?對,我想後面我們來跟經濟部多了解一些他們相關規劃的細節那假如掌握細節的話我們再來做局長用專業來講啦如果說真的不可行或者是說真的是可能會圖利的狀況的話以國安局的角度來說好好的提出專業那另外一個部分"},{"start":13936.483,"end":13956.966,"text":"蔡總統蔡前總統現在有出訪歐洲那也媒體報導是說他可能也會到前往美國那我想只要是我們中華民國現任總統現任元首前元首只要是代表青天白日蠻地紅代表中華民國出訪我們沒有拒絕或是沒有不願意的理由"},{"start":13958.026,"end":13984.999,"text":"那這個部分我們國安局有沒有掌握是說那對岸有沒有可能會有什麼反制措施這我們會特別注意因為就國安局的權責來講法律的權責我們必須要提供現任總統安危的保護所以對於總統出訪的地點路線出現的場合以及會不會有當地中共僑團的動員那這部分我們都有在密切的做那我們有評估過嗎因為現在有可能蔡前總統他前往美國有沒有評估說對岸有可能也會有什麼樣的"},{"start":13985.319,"end":14005.1,"text":"美國這一部分蔡前總統辦公室還沒有對外有說明有不適合做評論是但媒體報導出來啦對那如果說有的話如果說真的成行國安局也會做評估不管現任總統要到哪個國家去我們大概都會做一個評估安全的評估因為這是我們的法律責任還是要保障我們的元首安全當然當然謝謝洪本凱委員 局長請回"},{"start":14008.802,"end":14030.471,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束那委員口頭質詢為其答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供但是如果委員跟局長你剛才答應了兩位一週內另有約定期限者從其所定"},{"start":14031.391,"end":14057.497,"text":"那以上如果涉及機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束那我們期待我們通常業務報告後都要審查預算我們期待我們委員會相關的預算早一天能夠送進委員會進行審查因為試射不管是國安國防都是重要的事情我們希望業務報告後我們更盡快來審查我們相關的預算好今天會議到此結束散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:32 - 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列席官員 客家委員會主任委員古秀菲及相關人員 財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長陳邦整及相關人員 原住民組委員會主任委員曾志勇及相關人員 文化部政務次長李敬慧及相關人員 教育部中生教育司司長梁學正及相關人員 主席徐昭吉委員新移"},{"start":1926.405,"end":1948.519,"text":"草案。報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定。二、邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況並備質詢。三、邀請客家委員會主任委員員、駐民族委員會主任委員、文化部次長、教育部就臺灣臺語名詞是否符合國家語言定義,是否侵犯臺灣其他語言並存地位,及修正臺灣臺語政策進行專題報告並備質詢。"},{"start":1951.421,"end":1960.586,"text":"草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":1971.091,"end":1989.62,"text":"草案 決定。一、登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束。二、委員高晉、宿美、呂育林、蘇清泉、丁學忠及邱振軍等5人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。三、書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會,通過臨時提案議案。"},{"start":1990.22,"end":2010.149,"text":"其他事項,主席宣告,請各列席單位準備之書面報告應確實依開會通知單所定送達時間準時送達,並請準備口頭以及書面報告。宣讀完畢。好,請問各位委員,上次會議意思錄有無錯誤或遺漏?好,那我們意思錄確定。那我們繼續進行討論事項,請宣讀。"},{"start":2013.8,"end":2019.282,"text":"草案案。五、繼續審查委員陳婷菲等17人、委員黃捷等17人、委員廖其昌等21人、委員分別擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2029.625,"end":2048.198,"text":"草案案。五、繼續審查委員廖先祥等18人擬具《消防法》第15條、第21條之二及第43條之一條文修正草案案。六、繼續審查委員吳啟明等19人擬具《消防法》第21條之一、第21條之二及第43條之一條文修正草案案。七、繼續審查臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具《消防法》第43條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2048.778,"end":2062.983,"text":"草案案。五、繼續審查委員范雲等21人擬具委員王美惠等23人擬具委員吳麗華等18人擬具委員張宏祿等26人擬具委員黃潔等16人擬具委員國民黨黨團分別擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員楊瓊英等20人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員劉許廷等22人擬具委員洪孟楷等19人擬具"},{"start":2071.065,"end":2080.642,"text":"草案案。」委員林思明等18人分別擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。審查委員邱若驊等20人擬具《消防法第43條之一條文修正草案案》案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2084.438,"end":2110.653,"text":"本日審查之法案,頁經本會於113年6月26日第11屆第一會期第二十五次全體委員會議報告及詢答結束。那時候我們有決議,待行政院提案附委後,並按進行審查。緣此本次會議並按進行審查。好,那我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員。我們在場的有"},{"start":2112.862,"end":2136.044,"text":"劉許廷委員、洪孟凱委員、王美惠委員、黃潔委員、李柏毅委員。我們今天有來的是我們的內政部部長劉世芳、我們消防署署長蕭煥章"},{"start":2139.132,"end":2163.574,"text":"那我們還有法務部的參事廖江憲我們的環境部化學署的副署長陳淑玲我們教育部資訊及教育科技師的專門委員廖雙慶還有我們勞動部職業安全衛生署的副署長林玉堂"},{"start":2166.135,"end":2193.011,"text":"還有我們經濟部產業園區管理局的副局長劉季傳還有我們的衛生福利部醫師師的檢任技師呂念慈還有我們的情緒部人事管理師的副司長黃美媛還有行政院人事行政總署綜合規劃處的檢任視察孫成錦還有公務人員保障及培訓委員會保障處處長黃秀琴"},{"start":2198.652,"end":2213.209,"text":"那我們就本日議程新增制審查法案我們先提請提案委員說明提案要旨每人3分鐘那我們依今天先來的順序那我們第一個我們請牛許廷"},{"start":2222.523,"end":2248.355,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位與會同仁 各位媒體先進 各位政府長官 大家早安 大家好今天來做這個消防法修法牛雪林版本的提案說明這個近年來 這個空工廠跟倉儲的火災不斷當然我們都知道這個存放化學跟危險物品的工廠它當然是危害性跟對消防人員的安全打擊最高的第一優先這點本席競表同意"},{"start":2249.47,"end":2267.802,"text":"但是我們認為除了化學品這樣的一個工廠需要加強火災預防的配套措施之外具有一定規模以上的倉儲因為其火載量是一般工廠的4到5倍換言之它的易燃性跟造成的打擊可能不亞於存放危險物品的工廠"},{"start":2268.542,"end":2287.669,"text":"所以這火災量很高啊所以即使大型倉儲不見得存放所謂的危險物品但是發生火災的時候常常是全面燃燒或是長時間的悶燒所造成的危害不亞於工廠火災不只是對於消防人員救災的這個耗損跟長時間的疲勞也因為長時間的悶燒或者是長時間的打火不易造成這個周邊社區嚴重的公害"},{"start":2297.233,"end":2322.75,"text":"所以我認為這些社會成本都是我們修法的時候應該要考慮的事情我們如果談危險跟化學物品屏東的民洋大火就是標準的超量造成的消防人員不幸殉職而桃園蘆竹的美孚大火跟陽梅的家樂福大火都是因為長期的燜燒跟大規模的燜燒除了使消防人員疲於奔命之外府臭味的空氣污染也嚴重影響周邊居民的生活品質"},{"start":2323.65,"end":2339.453,"text":"有鑒於此,為使一定規模以上的倉庫比照工廠來做納管,並且克與相關資訊透明的義務,以敦促企業重視自主風險管理,減少火災發生後社會付出的巨大成本。"},{"start":2340.455,"end":2355.893,"text":"並遏止企業降低自身災害風險的責任轉嫁給社會承擔的這種惡質行為並強化消防人員職業安全衛生保障。本席提出《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。懇請各位委員同仁支持。"},{"start":2356.434,"end":2379.826,"text":"在此也特別感謝行政院卓榮泰院長內政部劉世芳部長在上個禮拜本席的總質詢的時候已經當場答應倉儲的納管不只要從工廠管理輔導法處理也要在消防法的相關條文中做精進用雙軌並進的方式來確保消防安全也感謝消防署事前的積極溝通我們期待今天的修法過程順利圓滿以上"},{"start":2385.23,"end":2387.711,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬"},{"start":2414.918,"end":2425.602,"text":"草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2443.789,"end":2467.467,"text":"因為其實過去在各式各樣的吹哨者保護相關的條款裡面都是讓吹哨者獨自要承擔這個糾正不法的之後的一些責任跟心理的壓力還有包括可能雇主的報復行為或者是職場上面的一些心理壓力所以我也希望透過這一次的修法可以讓主管機關成為吹哨者的後盾"},{"start":2467.987,"end":2489.549,"text":"那也鼓勵吹哨者他可以勇於的站出來糾舉這些不法的事項這樣子整體的消防安全環境才會越來越好那在健康的部分其實有一些細節包括說我也要求消防機關必須要定期的對所屬消防人員進行健康檢查那我認為這個健康檢查是非常重要的"},{"start":2490.049,"end":2508.996,"text":"那我也非常關注女性消防員的部分所以在女性消防員的相關條文我也要求在懷孕跟產後的兩年內可以依照醫師的建議來申請職務的調整來促進這個母性的健康那我認為對於女性的職場環境非常的重要"},{"start":2509.776,"end":2534.388,"text":"那當然最後要感謝一下消防員的辛苦總是在第一線守護國人的生命財產安全那我也代表高雄人來感謝所有的消防員因為在這一次的三山徒兒颱風裡面各縣市的消防員都來到高雄救災以及支援非常感謝大家那我也希望藉這個機會我們來守護消防員來促進消防員的所有保障以上謝謝"},{"start":2539.946,"end":2542.352,"text":"好,我們請洪夢凱委員那請洪夢凱委員我們連國民黨黨團提案一併說明"},{"start":2550.762,"end":2570.38,"text":"好,感謝,再一次感謝今天內政委員會牌相關消防法的一個修法。近年來,消防人員救災殉職的案件頻傳,凸顯消防人員職業安全保障及機制還是有要加強的地方。因此,國民黨黨團提案建立消防人員職業安全衛生制度性的保障框架,以及"},{"start":2572.322,"end":2593.943,"text":"維護消防人員執勤的時候的生命安全及身心健康並且藉由消防機關辦理互助共濟的事項以激勵消防及義勇消防人員的士氣及因應的緊急事件。本席另外有提案為了強化企業自主風險管理落實災害預防責任"},{"start":2596.105,"end":2617.268,"text":"確保自由災人員的生命安全及避免衍生的社會成本與院版不同的重點內容。我想幾個部分一定要在提案說明再做一個確認。一、完善危險物品的場所工作者之接避保護的條款,增訂對吹哨者不利處分的法令效果無效。"},{"start":2618.008,"end":2640.346,"text":"草案 法律的輔助以及減輕或免除其刑的規定。我想吹哨者保護法之前我們一直強調我們也希望能夠與時俱進那在吹哨者保護法還沒有辦法在我們現在來做一個具體的討論的時候我們也希望其他的相關法規能夠有吹哨者保護的相關的概念。二、擴大"},{"start":2641.947,"end":2656.058,"text":"災害事故調查會之啟動要件納入災害搶救以外之其他情務,所導致消防員重傷死亡或暫時全失能的情況,應該啟動調查機制,落實調查權的立法宗旨。"},{"start":2657.165,"end":2686.665,"text":"以及我們也希望確定反覆違規者按次處罰的規定及勒令停業或停止使用處分的要件以防止改善期間的無限制而導致與危害因此潛藏減少基層重複查核的工作負擔本期樂見內政委員會今天排審也想提醒今年已經有許多基層的公務員不幸的離開希望透過這些事件告訴政府"},{"start":2687.405,"end":2715.934,"text":"公務員的僱主。即便是身為公務員仍需要職業安全衛生法的保障,如果刻意只是在消防法做改革,是切割跟稀釋政府的責任,這樣的惡性循環只會讓公務員的職安及權益持續惡化。要打破這樣的一個惡性循環,就必須考慮公務員納入相關的保障,希望執政在野共同的深思,持續的檢討。我們為公務同仁加油,我們為所有第一線的"},{"start":2716.314,"end":2738.037,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2739.789,"end":2749.033,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":2767.853,"end":2769.517,"text":"安全衛生法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":2780.046,"end":2798.881,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法"},{"start":2808.968,"end":2828.103,"text":"草案 提出修法建立消防人員的職業安全衛生制度性的保障及框架,完成消防人員的職業安全衛生保障的"},{"start":2828.956,"end":2840.125,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2853.991,"end":2863.153,"text":"草案第43條之一違反資訊權是消防法部分條文修正草案裏面進行最重要的管理,如若違反相關規定,有很可能造成更多的失望、疑惑和懲戒。也有37條、40條、42條消防設備違反"},{"start":2882.984,"end":2890.828,"text":"草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2902.885,"end":2915.71,"text":"草案案。二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":2936.612,"end":2953.897,"text":"立席機關準備之書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。我們現在處理法案報告委員會現在進行法案審查請宣讀新增審查討論事項第1案及第7至18案之條文請宣讀"},{"start":2955.953,"end":2970.07,"text":"本院內政委員會於113年6月26日召開第11屆第一會期第25次全體委員會議,審查討論事項所列第二至第七案。上述6案之條文已宣讀完畢,現在宣讀行政院提案及討論事項第8至第18案。"},{"start":2971.431,"end":2992.027,"text":"草案。」第一條,行政院提案,於後段增訂並防護消防人員執行植物質安全及衛生其餘同線型條文。委員范雲等提案,同行政院提案並著作文自修正。委員王美惠等提案,委員伍麗華等提案,委員黃捷等16人提案,國民黨黨團提案,委員牛許廷等提案及委員林思敏等提案,均同行政院提案。"},{"start":2993.348,"end":3014.098,"text":"第9條國民黨黨團提案,第三項修正為,第一項第二款一定規模以上之場所,一直依第6條第一項所定各類場所,消防安全設備設置標準,設置消防安全設備之各類場所,但僅設置滅火器、標示設備或緊急照明燈等非系統式消防安全設備之場所不在此限,其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":3015.379,"end":3033.56,"text":"第15條,行政院提案將第三項前段之行為人修正為工作者,第六項後段之得以實收罰還總金額收入之一定比例提充獎金獎勵舉發人修正為應以實收罰還總金額收入之一定比例提充獎金獎勵舉發人其與同現行條文。"},{"start":3034.321,"end":3055.388,"text":"草案、委員范雲等提案、委員王美惠等提案、同行政院提案、委員張宏祿等提案,刪除第5項後段簡新文字其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案增訂第6項、第7項、第8項分別為單位主管、雇主為前項行為之一者無效,舉發人因第5項規定受有不利處分者,主管機關應提供"},{"start":3056.288,"end":3083.385,"text":"草案 必要之法律輔助,舉發人因其介入行為有犯刑法特別刑法之妨害秘密罪或背信罪者,減輕或免除其刑。原第六七項一列第九十項其餘同行政院提案。委員牛許廷等提案,第三項前段之職務涉及第一項鎖定場所之行為人或經營家用液化石油器零售事業者,以下檢測零售業者、用戶及其員工等文字修正為人民或團體。"},{"start":3084.446,"end":3098.494,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員陳"},{"start":3111.522,"end":3132.187,"text":"草案 第6項前段修正為第3項舉發之內容相關主管機關應於60日內完成查證並一列第8項,原第7項一列第9項其餘同行政院提案。第15條之6國民黨黨團提案第一項序文前段之儲存及處理公共危險物品修正為儲存或處理公共危險物品其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":3133.467,"end":3159.157,"text":"草案。第16條,國民黨黨團提案,前段致各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關購其與同線性條文。委員林思敏等提案,同國民黨黨團提案。第21條之一,行政院提案,工廠儲存化學品之倉庫及儲存場所之管理權人應依下列規定辦理,依平時備制化學品種類數量位置平面配置土籍搶救必要資訊,並於火災發生時立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊,"},{"start":3160.638,"end":3178.558,"text":"二、火災發生時指派專人至現場協助救災。委員范雲等提案、委員王美惠等提案均同行政院提案。委員伍麗華等提案,序文修正為《工廠儲存化學品質實驗室倉庫及儲存場所至管理權人火災時工廠至管理權人應依下列規定辦理》,其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3179.339,"end":3194.718,"text":"草案。」委員張宏祿等提案,增訂第二項,前項第一款之必要資訊應定其上傳至中央主管機關指定之網路平臺,其上傳時程及相關辦法由中央主管機關擬定之,其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案,增訂並修正為,第21條之一,"},{"start":3195.959,"end":3219.314,"text":"公廠儲存化學品或一定規模以上之倉庫及公共危險物品室內儲存場所之管理權人依下列規定辦理,依平時備制並申報化學品或儲存物品之種類、數量、位置、平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊,並於火災發生時立即提供消防指揮人員。二、平時建立中機械業者資訊,於火災發生時主動調度救災所需中機械協助搶救,並支付所有必要費用。"},{"start":3220.134,"end":3234.814,"text":"草案。三、火災發生時指派知情專人立即至現場協助救災,其知情專人由中央主管機關公告或訂定相關標準。場所之管理權人不能或未及依前向第二款調度時,主管機關得代為調度,並應向其求償相關必要費用。"},{"start":3235.655,"end":3262.066,"text":"第一項一定規模以上倉庫之認定標準由中央主管機關定之。第一項第一款化學品或儲存物品之認定申報內容格式頻率方式保存資訊公開工商機密保護方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員牛許廷等提案第一項第一款最後增加該等資訊文字。第三款修正為三火災發生時指派專人至現場協助救災。其餘通國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":3263.366,"end":3287.798,"text":"草案。」委員洪孟楷等提案,同國民黨黨團提案。委員林思敏等提案,工廠儲存化學品或儲存一定規模之公共危險物品之場所管理權人應依下列規定辦理,依依與內部僱用設置有防火管理人證照之專職負責人,平時備制並定期申報化學品或儲存物品之種類數量備制平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊,並於火災發生時立即提供消防指揮人員。"},{"start":3288.558,"end":3302.754,"text":"草案。二、火災發生時指派場所內部專職負責人或指派知情專人立即至現場協助救災。第一項一定規模之公共危險物品之認定標準由中央主管機關定之。第一項第一款之申報內容時程與方式等規定由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":3303.735,"end":3317.046,"text":"草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3327.895,"end":3353.898,"text":"草案。」委員范雲等提案、委員王美惠等提案、委員張宏祿等提案及委員林思敏等提案均同行政院提案。委員伍麗華等提案第一項於倉庫前增加實驗室其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案第一項前段修正為儲存化學品之倉庫及公共危險物品室內儲存場所之管理全人其餘同行政院提案。委員牛許廷等提案同國民黨黨團提案。增訂第三章之一章名"},{"start":3354.699,"end":3379.453,"text":"行政院提案、消防人員安全衛生防護委員范雲等提案、委員王美惠等提案、委員吳麗華等提案、委員黃捷等16人提案、國民黨黨團提案、委員牛旭廷等提案及委員林思敏等提案、張明君同行政院提案。增訂第25條之一,行政院提案,中央主管機關為預防消防人員基於其身份或職務活動所可能引起之生命、身體及健康危害,因聆聘消防機關代表公務人員協會"},{"start":3380.774,"end":3402.895,"text":"代表及學者專家組成消防人員職務安全衛生諮詢會 諮詢會委員任意性別比例不得少於三分之一。諮詢會應就消防人員之職務安全衛生政策、安全衛生管理系統、安全衛生防護設備及措施等事項提供建議。諮詢會之組成任務、委員之資格條件、聆聘方式及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":3403.536,"end":3432.64,"text":"草案、委員范雲等提案第一項與學者專家後增加及基層消防團體代表其餘同行政院提案。委員王美惠等提案同行政院提案並著作文字修正。委員伍麗華等提案第一項之公務人員協會代表修正為公務人員協會消防人員代表。第二項前段修正為諮詢會應由不同地區成員組成其餘同行政院提案。委員黃捷等16人提案第一項及第三項之聆聘文字修正為聘請並著作文字修正其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3433.46,"end":3455.876,"text":"國民黨黨團提案、委員柳旭婷等提案、同行政院提案、委員林思明等提案、同委員范雲等提案。增訂第25條之二,行政院提案,各級消防機關應設安全衛生專責單位及治專責人員,但預算元額數未滿200人者,得僅治安全衛生專責人員。各級消防機關應執行下列事項,依建制消防人員安全衛生管理系統。"},{"start":3456.536,"end":3485.003,"text":"草案。二、提供所屬消防人員執行職務必要之安全衛生防護設備及措施,各級消防機關應將前項各款事項公告周知所屬消防人員。委員范雲等提案,委員伍麗華等提案及委員牛旭廷等提案,均同行政院提案。委員王美惠等提案,第一項前段修正為各級消防機關應涉安全衛生專責單位及人員,第三項修正為前項各款事項各級消防機關應公告周知所屬消防人員,其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3485.823,"end":3501.295,"text":"草案案。」委員黃捷等16人提案同委員王美惠等提案。國民黨黨團提案第一項第三項前段及第二項序文之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關購其餘同行政院提案。委員林思敏等提案同國民黨黨團提案並著作文字修正。"},{"start":3501.975,"end":3506.76,"text":"草案。」案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":3524.995,"end":3545.617,"text":"國民黨黨團提案及委員紅蒙凱等提案第25條之一。前段之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關構,中段增加任意性別比例不得低於三分之一文字,其餘同行政院提案。委員劉許廷等提案,中段增加任意性別比例不得低於三分之一文字,其餘同行政院提案。委員林思敏等提案,同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":3547.319,"end":3566.707,"text":"草案 。行政院提案各級消防機關應辦理下列事項並報請中央主管機關備查。一、定期統計及評估消防人員安全衛生管理系統之建置成效。二、消防人員因其工作場所、作業活動或其他職業上原因引發疾病傷害失能或死亡之事故及時通報並作成調查記錄。"},{"start":3568.797,"end":3594.254,"text":"草案。」委員范雲等提案,委員牛旭婷等提案,同行政院提案。委員王美惠等提案,委員黃捷等16人提案,同行政院提案,並著作文字修正。委員伍麗華等提案,續文修正為應定期辦理。第一款增加安全衛生防護設備等措施,其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案,續文前段之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關購,其餘同行政院提案。委員林思敏等提案,同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":3595.655,"end":3617.24,"text":"草案、增訂第25條之五行政院提案,中央主管機關獲其委託之團體機關構籍學校得查核各級消防機關消防人員安全衛生管理系統之建制情形,並由中央主管機關公告查核結果。前項查核結果績效良好者,中央主管機關得予獎勵及公開表揚,執行不利者得令其改善及提出懲處建議。"},{"start":3619.44,"end":3638.426,"text":"草案 委員范雲等提案、委員吳立華等提案、委員劉許廷等提案、同行政院提案、委員王美惠等提案、委員黃捷等16人提案、同行政院提案並著作文字修正。五、國民黨黨團提案第一項中斷之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關構,其餘同行政院提案。六、委員林思敏等提案同國民黨黨團提案並著作文字修正。"},{"start":3639.766,"end":3657.217,"text":"草案 。行政院提案,各級消防機關對於所屬消防人員得定期實施特定項目之健康檢查,必要時並得實施臨時健康檢查,其檢查之項目及方式由中央主管機關會商、衛生環保等相關機關定之。消防人員有接受前項健康檢查之義務,"},{"start":3658.558,"end":3673.33,"text":"草案 第一項健康檢查應由中央衛生主管機關評鑑和各自區域醫院或醫學中心為之。健康檢查記錄應由各級消防機關予以保存,並負擔健康檢查費用。實施臨時健康檢查時,各級消防機關應提供救災作業經歷資料與意願,"},{"start":3675.111,"end":3690.789,"text":"草案案。」各級消防機關對於所屬消防人員健康檢查的結果應通報中央主管機關備查,以作為與其職務相關疾病預防之必要應用。委員范雲等提案同行政院提案,委員王美惠等提案,第二項修正為前項健康檢查,消防人員有接受之義務,"},{"start":3691.67,"end":3711.548,"text":"草案。第三項前段之區域醫院或醫學中心修正為區域及以上醫院。第四項前段修正為各級消防機關對於健康檢查及結果。其餘同行政院提案。委員伍麗華等提案。第一項得定期實施特定項目之健康檢查修正為應定期實施特定項目之健康檢查。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3712.268,"end":3735.707,"text":"草案、委員黃捷等16人提案、第一項同委員伍麗華等提案、其餘同委員王美惠等提案。國民黨黨團提案第一項、第三項、第四項之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關構。第一項之得定期實施特定項目之健康檢查修正為應定期實施特定項目之健康檢查。第四項末段疾病預防文字修正為健康管理措施其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3736.408,"end":3750.785,"text":"草案、委員牛許廷等提案。第一項、第三項、第四項之各級消防機關構修正為各級消防機關其餘同國民黨黨團提案。委員林思明等提案。第一項、第三項之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關構其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3751.906,"end":3757.089,"text":"草案。」案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":3772.697,"end":3794.156,"text":"草案、委員范雲等提案、委員吳立華等提案、委員牛許廷等提案、同行政院提案、委員王美惠等提案、委員黃捷等16人提案、同行政院提案並著作文字修正。國民黨黨團提案第一項前段之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關狗,第二項後段修正為由中央主管機關會商考試員及勞動部定之,其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3794.957,"end":3805.692,"text":"草案。」委員洪孟楷等提案第25條至2同國民黨黨團提案。委員林思敏等提案第一項前段至各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關苟其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3807.441,"end":3813.344,"text":"草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3827.93,"end":3846.765,"text":"草案案。」委員黃捷等16人提案,增訂第二項,各級消防機關對於女性認成中會分免後未滿二年之消防人員處應提供適當之環境安全衛生防護設備及措施外,並因依醫生適性評估建議採取勤務調整或必要之健康保護措施。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":3847.846,"end":3873.588,"text":"草案。」國民黨黨團提案,前段之各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關構,中段修正為懷孕及生產後未滿2年,其餘同行政院提案,委員林思明等提案,各級消防機關構因考量消防人員性別、年齡、身心障礙、女性認證、終極生產後未滿2年等因素之特殊需要,提供適當之環境、安全衛生防護設備及措施之特殊需要,"},{"start":3874.068,"end":3880.49,"text":"提供適當之環境安全衛生防護設備及措施必要時應採取勤務調整或健康保護之措施。"},{"start":3883.89,"end":3910.666,"text":"行政院提案各級政府辦理消防人員正安全衛生防護設備措施及健康檢查所需經費應優先編列預算之應。委員范雲等提案委員吳立華等提案國民黨黨團提案委員牛許廷等提案及委員林思明林思明等提案均同行政院提案委員王美惠等提案委員黃捷等16人提案刪除最莫居之之應二字其餘同行政院提案。增訂第25條之十委員范雲等提案"},{"start":3911.667,"end":3930.112,"text":"草案。消防人員發現所屬消防機關有違反第25條之二、第25條之三、第25條之四、第25條之七及第25條之八者,得向主管機關申訴。消防機關不得對前向申訴之消防人員予以不利之行政處分、不合理之管理措施或有關工作條件之處置。"},{"start":3931.132,"end":3955.878,"text":"草案。第二十七條之一,國民黨黨團提案第一項中段修正為因災害搶救或其他消防勤務致發生死亡、重傷或戰時權失能事故之原因,其餘同現行條文,委員洪孟楷等提案同國民黨黨團提案。委員林思敏等提案第一項之戰時權失能修正為失能,第二項前段之製作事故原因調查報告修正為製作並公告事故原因調查報告,其餘同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":3957.418,"end":3977.753,"text":"第28條行政院提案第一項後段增加及其他相關事項文字增訂第三項參加第一項義勇消防組織人員之安全衛生防護事項得准用第25條之二第二項及第25條之四規定其餘同現行條文委員范雲等提案委員王美惠等提案委員黃捷等16人提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":3978.473,"end":3999.634,"text":"審查委員吳立華等提案第一項於服勤後增加安全衛生防護設備文字其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案第三項末段增加第25條之6第一項規定其餘同行政院提案。委員牛許廷等提案第三項末段增加第25條之6第一項及第三項規定其餘同行政院提案。委員林思明等提案同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":4001.115,"end":4017.697,"text":"第35條行政院提案,場所之管理權人有下列情形之一,於發生火災時致人與死者處1年以上7年以下有期徒刑,得病科信貸幣100萬元以上500萬元以下罰金,致重傷者處6月以上5年以下有期徒刑,得病科信貸幣50萬元以上250萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":4019.599,"end":4041.246,"text":"草案案。一、第六條第一項鎖定標準,應設置消防安全設備之供營業使用場所,為依規定設置或維護消防安全設備。二、第六條第四項鎖定應設置住宅用火災警報器之場所,為依規定設置或維護住宅用火災警報器。十三條第一項鎖定一定規模以上之建築物,為訂定"},{"start":4042.106,"end":4059.168,"text":"消防防護計劃或施工中消防防護計劃或為一個該計劃執行有關避難引導必要之業務。四、第15條第一項所定達管質量公共危險物品之製造、儲存或處理場所,未符合同條第二項所定辦法中有關設置或維護場所之位置、構造或設備規定。"},{"start":4060.45,"end":4086.697,"text":"草案。五、第15條之六第一項所定製造儲存及處理公共危險物品和技達管制量30倍以上場所,為訂定消防防災計劃或為以消防防災計劃執行有關避難引導必要之業務。委員范雲等提案、委員王美惠等提案、委員牛許廷等提案、軍統行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案第五款儲存及處理公共危險物品修正為儲存或處理公共危險物品。增訂第六款即第七款"},{"start":4087.785,"end":4104.408,"text":"草案 第21條之一第一項第一款所定於為立即提供消防指揮人員該等書面或雲端資訊或提供資訊內容虛偽不實者。七、第二十一條之一第一項第三款所定為指派知情專人至現場協助救災。其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":4104.889,"end":4131.821,"text":"草案、委員侯孟楷等提案同國民黨黨團提案。五、繼續審查委員林思明等提案序文之法進額度分別修正為新台幣100萬元以上、1000萬元以下及新台幣50萬元以上、500萬元以下,增訂第6款、第7款。六、第二十一條之一第一項第一款所定為立即提供消防指揮人員相關之必要且正確之資訊。七、第二十一條之一第一項第二款所定場所職務內部專職負責人或未指派知情專人"},{"start":4133.081,"end":4158.465,"text":"立即致現場協助救災。」其餘同行政院提案。第三十七條,行政院提案刪除第一項第一款第二款前段,依第六條第一項所定標準應設置消防安全設備,文字其餘同現行條文。委員范雲等提案第一項第一款罰還上限修正為該場所年營業額一定比例以下罰還,裁罰金額倍數表由中央主管機關令定之。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":4159.265,"end":4185.214,"text":"草案。」委員王美惠等提案,第一項第一款罰還修正為新台幣2萬元以上、100萬元以下,第二款罰還修正為新台幣2萬元以上、100萬元以下,第三項罰還修正為新台幣1萬元以上、30萬元以下,其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案第二項中段增加其清潔重大禍金處罰三次後人為改善者文字,並將得修正為因,其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":4185.934,"end":4205.147,"text":"草案、委員牛許廷等提案、同行政院提案、委員洪孟凱等提案、同國民黨黨團提案、委員林思明等提案。第一項第一款罰還修正為新台幣5萬元以上、50萬元以下。第二款罰還修正為新台幣3萬元以上、30萬元以下罰還。第一項第一款、第二款之限期改善文字修正為"},{"start":4206.348,"end":4233.771,"text":"草案 修正為於30日內改善。第二項後段修正為借其人不改善者得按次處罰。請截重大者應於30日以下之停業或停止其使用之處分。其餘同行政院提案。第40條行政院提案增訂第二項,一定規模以上之建築物發生火災時管理權人違反第13條第4項規定,為依消防防護計劃執行有關防火管理上必要之業務,處新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":4236.476,"end":4254.63,"text":"草案。第二項一列第三項,第三項一列第四項,並著作文字修正其餘同線性條文。委員范雲等提案,第一項、第二項及第三項續文之法環上限修正為該場所年一、二額一定比例以下法環,裁罰金額及倍數表由中央主管機關另訂之,其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":4255.31,"end":4279.632,"text":"草案。」委員王美惠等提案第一項第二項罰還分別修正為新台幣2萬元以上100萬元以下第三項罰還修正為新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下其餘同行政院提案國民黨黨團提案第一項之並得勒令管理權人停工修正為應勒令管理權人提供第四項中段增加其情節重大或經處罰三次後人為改善者文字並將得修正為應其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":4280.333,"end":4304.665,"text":"草案、委員牛許廷等提案同行政院提案、委員洪孟楷等提案同國民黨黨團提案、委員林思明等提案第一項、第二項、第三項罰還修正為新台幣5萬元以上、100萬元以下。第三項續文之限期改善文字修正為於30日內改善。第四項後段修正為借其人不改善者得按次處罰,請結重大者應於30日以下之停業或停止其使用之處分。"},{"start":4305.385,"end":4330.378,"text":"其與同行政院提案。第42條行政院提案第15條第一項所定達管質量公共危險物品及可燃性高壓器體質製造儲存或處理場所其儲存、處理或搬運未符合同條第二項所定辦法中有關安全管理規定者處其管理權人或行為人心態比2萬元以上30萬元以下罰還。第15條第一項所定達管質量公共危險物品及可燃性高壓器體質製造儲存或處理場所"},{"start":4331.098,"end":4352.657,"text":"草案、其未自構造或設備未符合同條第二項鎖定辦法中有關設置標準規定者處其管理權人信貸比2萬元以上、150萬元以下罰還。依前二項規定處罰還後,經通知限期改善皆其人為改善者得安次處罰,並得予以30日以下之停驗或停止其使用之處分。第15條之6第一項規定之管理權人未責由保安監督人"},{"start":4353.197,"end":4374.746,"text":"庭定消防防災計劃處新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下罰還,並通知限期改善,藉其為改善者得按次處罰。製造儲存及處理公共危險物品和濟達管質量30倍以上場所發生火災時,管理學人違反第15條之6第一項規定,為依消防防災計劃執行有關危險物品管理必要之業務處新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":4376.047,"end":4392.241,"text":"草案 委員范雲等提案。第一項、第二項、第四項及第五項之法環上限修正為該場所年一、二一定比例以下法環、財發金額及倍數表中央主管機關令定之。第三項後段修正為並得予以停業或停止其使用之處分至其改善完畢為止。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":4393.001,"end":4421.429,"text":"草案。」委員王美惠等提案,第一項法環修正為新台幣2萬元以上、100萬元以下,第二項法環修正為新台幣2萬元以上、500萬元以下,第四項、第五項法環修正為新台幣2萬元以上、100萬元以下,其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案,第一項法環修正為新台幣3萬元以上、30萬元以下,第二項法環修正為新台幣3萬元以上、150萬元以下,第三項中段增加,其情節重大或經處罰三次後仍未改善者文字,並將得修正為因。"},{"start":4422.129,"end":4441.7,"text":"草案 違反第15條第5項規定者處新台幣2萬元以上、30萬元以下罰還。原第4項、第5項一列第5項、第6項並將罰還修正為新台幣3萬元以上、150萬元以下。其餘同行政院提案。委員牛許廷等提案同行政院提案。委員侯孟楷等提案同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":4442.841,"end":4470.753,"text":"草案。」委員林思敏等提案第一、二、四、五項後段修正為處其管理權人或行為人新台幣10萬元以上、300萬元或該場所上一會計年度營業銷售金額之40%以下之罰還。第三項修正為一前二項規定處罰還後,經通知於30日內改善借其人為改善者得按次處罰,請結重大者並得予以停業或停止其使用之處分,至其改善完畢為止。其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":4471.513,"end":4487.603,"text":"草案。」第四十二條之一國民黨黨團提案將序文末段之德連續處罰修正為德案次處罰其餘同現行條文。第四十二條之三行政院提案刪除第一項第六款未則由保安監督人訂定消防防災計劃等文字其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":4488.524,"end":4511.657,"text":"草案、委員范雲等提案、委員劉許廷等提案、同行政院提案、委員王美惠等提案第一項法環修正為新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案將第一項第6款後段之或自主檢查修正為即自主檢查其餘同行政院提案。委員洪孟凱等提案及委員林思敏等提案同國民黨黨團提案。第43條國民黨黨團提案第一項同現行條文增訂第二項"},{"start":4515.839,"end":4530.699,"text":"拒絕一第27條之一所為調閱提供資料或文件者處新台幣6000元以上10萬元以下罰還。委員楊瓊英等提案罰還修正為新台幣6萬元以上100萬元以下其餘通現行條文。委員洪孟凱等提案通國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":4532.421,"end":4554.097,"text":"第43條之一行政院提案,第一項修正違反第21條之一第一款規定,場所之管理權人平時未備置化學品種類數量未置平面配置圖或搶救必要資訊或與火災發生所未立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊或提供資訊內容需為不實者,處管理權人心態並3萬元以上3百萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":4554.998,"end":4580.334,"text":"草案、將第二項工廠修正為場所,並將罰款修正為新台幣50萬元以上、1000萬元以下。增訂第三項,第二十一條之二第一項規定之場所管理權人對於具有危害性之化學品違反該項規定位於該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板或危害風險有變動時未及時更新或設置標示板違反同條第二項公告有關等級、內容、顏色、大小或設置位置之規定者"},{"start":4580.934,"end":4597.679,"text":"草案 處管理權人信貸幣2萬元以上、150萬元以下罰還,其餘同現行條文。委員范雲等提案第一項、第二項罰還上限修正為該工廠年營業額一定比例以下之罰還,裁罰金額及倍數表中央主管機關令定之。第二項後段增加若於發生火災時"},{"start":4599.019,"end":4617.496,"text":"草案 並致人與死者處1年以上7年以下有期徒刑。其餘同行政院提案委員王美惠等提案第一項法環修正為新台幣3萬元以上1000萬元以下第二項法環修正為新台幣50萬元以上2000萬元以下第三項法環修正為新台幣2萬元以上500萬元以下其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":4618.317,"end":4645.497,"text":"草案。」委員張宏祿等提案第一項前段修正委違反第21條之一第一項規定者其餘同行政院提案。國民黨黨團提案第43條之一違反第21條之一第一款規定場所致管理權人平時未備置化學品或儲存物品之種類數量未置平面配置圖或搶救必要資訊或與火災發生時未立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊或提供資訊內容需為不實者處管理權人新台幣3萬元以上3百萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":4646.698,"end":4675.026,"text":"草案 違反第二十一條之一第二款規定場所之管理權人平時為建立重機械業者資訊或與火災發生時待遇調度重機械者處管理權人薪台幣二萬元以上二百萬元以下罰還違反第二十一條之一第三款規定場所之管理權人與火災發生時為指派知情專人之現場協助救災處管理權人薪台幣五十萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還前三項經主管機關認定有情節重大者得處場所上一會計年度年"},{"start":4676.01,"end":4697.449,"text":"上一會計年度銷售金額10%以下罰環不受前三項罰環金額限制。前項場所上一會計年度銷售金額之計算請結重大之認定罰環計算之辦法由中央主管機關定之。第二十一條之二第一項規定之場所管理權人對於具有危害性之化學品公共危險物品違反該項規定位於該場所明顯位置設置"},{"start":4698.45,"end":4723.961,"text":"危害風險標示板或危害風險有變動時未及時更新或設置標示板違反同條第二項公告有關等級、內容、顏色、大小或設置位置之規定者處管理權人新台幣2萬元以上、150萬元以下罰還。依第一項、第二項或第六項規定處罰還者並通知限期改善,藉其人為改善者按次處罰。其情節重大或經處罰三次後人為改善者應於90日以下之停業或停止其使用之處分。"},{"start":4724.841,"end":4744.14,"text":"委員甯許亭等提案第43條之一違反第21條之一第一款規定,場所之管理權人平時未配置化學品或儲存物品之種類數量未至平面配置圖或搶救必要資訊未依規定申報或與火災發生時未立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊或提供資訊內容需為不實者。"},{"start":4744.76,"end":4769.413,"text":"草案 處管理權人新台幣3萬元以上300萬元以下罰還違反第21條之一第2款規定場所之管理權人平時未建立重機械業者資訊或與火災發生時待遇調度重機械者處管理權人新台幣2萬元以上200萬元以下罰還違反第21條之一第3款規定場所之管理權人與火災發生時未指派專人至現場協助救災處管理權人新台幣50萬元以上1000萬元以下罰還"},{"start":4770.533,"end":4789.383,"text":"第21條之二第一項規定之場所管理權人對於具有危害性之化學品違反該項規定位於該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板或危害風險有變動時為即時更新或設置標示板違反同條第二項公告有關等級內容顏色大小或設置位置之規定者處管理權人信貸幣2萬元以上150萬元以下罰還"},{"start":4791.684,"end":4814.237,"text":"一、第一項、第二項或第四項規定處罰還者並通知現其改善,藉其人為改善者按次處罰並得於90日以下之停業或停止其使用之處分。委員楊瓊英等提案第一項罰還修正為新台幣30萬元以上600萬元以下,第二項罰還修正為新台幣500萬元以上1500萬元以下,其餘同現行條文。委員洪孟楷等提案同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":4816.38,"end":4832.455,"text":"委員邱若驊等提案第一項法環修正為新台幣3萬元以上120萬元以下第二項法環修正為新台幣50萬元以上150萬元以下其餘同線型條文。委員林思敏等提案第43條之一違反第21條之一第一款規定長所致管理權人"},{"start":4833.075,"end":4856.208,"text":"平時未備置化學品或儲存物品之種類、數量、未置平面配置圖或搶救必要資訊或與火災發生時未立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊或提供資訊內容需為不實者處管理權人新台幣10萬元以上300萬元或該場所上一塊近年度營業銷售金額至40%以下之罰還。違反第21條之一第一項第二款規定場所之管理權人與火災發生時"},{"start":4857.228,"end":4875.658,"text":"草案 為指派場所內部專職負責人或知情專人之現場協助救災處管理權人新台幣50萬元以上、1000萬元或該場所上億塊金年度營業銷售金額40%以下之罰款若於發生火災時因違反前二項規定而致人與死者因處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":4876.258,"end":4897.579,"text":"第21條之二第一項規定之場所管理權人對於具有危害性之化學品公共危險物品違反該項規定位於該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板或危害風險有變動時未及時更新或設置標示板違反同條第二項公告有關等級內容顏色大小或設置位置之規定者處管理權人新台幣5萬元以上150萬元以下之罰還"},{"start":4898.92,"end":4913.503,"text":"草案。」案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":4929.066,"end":4950.027,"text":"草案。」委員范雲等提案,增加第三款。三、為一第25條之八規定考量特殊需要並提供所屬消防人員適當之環境安全衛生防護設備及措施,其餘同行政院提案。委員王美惠等提案,虛文增加或改善不完全等文字,並將法環修正為新台幣3萬元以上100萬元以下,其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":4950.647,"end":4971.042,"text":"草案、委員伍立華等提案、同行政院提案、委員黃捷等16人提案、序文增加或改善不完全等文字、其餘同行政院提案並著作文字修正。五、國民黨黨團提案序文前段至各級消防機關修正為各級消防機關構、其餘同行政院提案。六、委員林思敏等提案增訂第三款同委員范雲等提案、其餘同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":4972.663,"end":4988.796,"text":"草案。」案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":5005.712,"end":5020.951,"text":"修正動議第28條第一項後段扶擒及其他相關事項之辦法。"},{"start":5023.891,"end":5042.93,"text":"第3項參加第一項義勇消防組織人員之安全衛生防護事項的準用第25條之二、第二項、第三項、第25條之四、第25條之六之規定其餘同行政院提案提案人委員王美惠等3人修正動議二、第15條第4項"},{"start":5048.763,"end":5062.035,"text":"草案 修正為直轄事先是主管機關接貨前項舉發應為必要之調查並於60日內將處理情形以書面通知舉發人。五、六。"},{"start":5063.319,"end":5084.469,"text":"草案。第六項修正為第三項舉發人之單位主管僱主不得因其舉發行為而予以解僱降調減薪損害其依法令契約或習慣上所應享有之權益或其他不利之處分。第七項舉發人之單位主管僱主為前項行為之一者無效。其餘同行政院提案。第21條之一"},{"start":5090.29,"end":5100.494,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5111.954,"end":5130.845,"text":"草案。」第二項,序文修正為各級消防機關應執行下列事項並落實性別平等原則,其餘同行政院提案。第二十五條之六,增訂第二項,第二項,刪除第二項,"},{"start":5134.606,"end":5152.393,"text":"刪除第二項,原來的第三四項一列為第二三項,其餘同行政院提案,提案人委員蘇巧慧等4人,宣讀完畢。好,那我們現在進行協商。"},{"start":5178.083,"end":5202.988,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員"},{"start":5204.209,"end":5217.378,"text":"沒有?好,那造型這面板通過?沒有那第9條國民黨團的提案大家有沒有意見?"},{"start":5232.867,"end":5236.388,"text":"那個消防署簡單說明一下"},{"start":5253.746,"end":5253.846,"text":"草案。"},{"start":5276.77,"end":5285.78,"text":"所以就不要修正就對了?建築委員條文是。照原條文是不是?對。好,那大家有沒有意見?不修正。好,那就不以修訂。好,來,那我們現在帶來第15條。好,黃捷委員。"},{"start":5294.517,"end":5313.674,"text":"好 謝謝那因為第15條裡面當然很感謝院版有把我原本建議的一些缺少者保護的條款都有採納進去包括說給予這個舉發人一個法律的協助那我還是希望表達一下意見啦就是有一部分沒有被採納的"},{"start":5314.835,"end":5317.217,"text":"草案案件 回報部分條文修正草案件 回報部分條文修正草案件 回報部分條文修正草案件"},{"start":5338.297,"end":5364.368,"text":"那如果沒有辦法的話那還是希望消防署可以一步一步來啦越來越進步那我覺得這個吹哨者保護的最進步的這個精神應該要是這樣子那其實在我們勞基法74條裡面也有類似的條款了就是要在60天內書面回覆舉發人所以我也希望說未來這個吹哨者保護可以做得更好以上建議謝謝"},{"start":5368.518,"end":5395.592,"text":"我看一下我們裡面幾位委員提案的方向以及現在行政院所提出來的方向基本上是同意有危險物品公共危險物品的這些場所的員工可以向主管機關來舉發這些危險物品他可能存放的安全"},{"start":5396.152,"end":5418.201,"text":"草案 等機制,我們表示同意。當然其他委員也有提出更高規格的這些方案等等的。那我也比較支持說我們先朝向可以執行而且不會妨礙到安全又有進步的這個方案來處理。以上。好,謝謝。那消防組要不要說一下。"},{"start":5425.992,"end":5451.398,"text":"感謝委員會對請願支持那我們吹哨者在這一次的立法例算是很新的一個做法那很感謝黃委員這邊黃委員支持我們建議是先有這個精神那成竹委員所提到逐步來強化它的內容那先讓這個制度能夠先推動那後續我們再來推動以後如果說還需要再做精進我們再做進一步的精進謝謝"},{"start":5454.565,"end":5457.442,"text":"好,那這樣各位委員...噢噢,劉雪凌"},{"start":5462.782,"end":5488.835,"text":"好 謝謝主席針對第15條當然要討論所謂的接避者保護的部分當然院版寫的是比較寬鬆當然我們從在黨歷程來講我們當然希望它這個強度可以高一點院版裡面主張就是說應該是由相關的法規來做規範所以希望維持院版的條文不過我提醒一下比如說我舉個例子比如說水汙染防治法39條之一講說這些"},{"start":5494.438,"end":5510.468,"text":"水污染防治吹哨者 行使管理權之人為前項規定所為之解雇、降調、減薪或其他不利處分者無效。也就是說在針對這種水污染吹哨者保護"},{"start":5511.348,"end":5530.135,"text":"的相關條文,在這裡面其實也是有做這個敘述,空污防治法也是一樣,所以說個別的行政法中你如果去訂立相關的規定的話,其實沒有問題,不會說是這是司法,這個司法,我想是私人的司法的問題,所以就沒有辦法處理,我覺得不會有這個問題,是不是來做一下參考,我們把強度拉高一點以上。"},{"start":5533.325,"end":5546.776,"text":"好,那這樣子各位委員,我們是不是照行政院版先通過吧?等一下等一下等一下,你總要回應啊,不然咧?好,那請他回應。"},{"start":5550.776,"end":5558.401,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5577.573,"end":5599.415,"text":"我比較建議是不是能夠朝向我們先能夠執行以後那如果說真的要執行在更強的強度因為消防法修正去年才修正過那今年是馬上做修正那如果說真的在執行上面有這樣的需求或者有什麼自然來行的地方是不是容許我們有一些經驗值以後再來做一個增進跟強化"},{"start":5602.595,"end":5621.443,"text":"我現在的問題就是這樣嘛就是說你現在的法條裡面只有寫說舉發人的單位主管僱主不得因為舉發行為予以解雇調職跟不利處分嘛就是你只能講不行嘛那會不會只是淪為所謂的道德勸說他如果真的這樣做的時候相關來講要付的代價跟一些跟一些是什麼事要做清楚的交代要不然我們很難確定萬一大家"},{"start":5622.923,"end":5632.553,"text":"草案 法條講是這樣講,但這些人還是這樣處理,讓吹哨者保護這一段沒有辦法被落實,那怎麼辦呢?總要有一些說法吧,好不好?是不是再思考一下?請部長"},{"start":5638.257,"end":5662.065,"text":"我來回應一下劉委員的部分其實在我們吹哨者保護條款裡面最重要在消防法的精神就是要確保消防的這樣的業務不要被這個所謂的僱主或是不肖的僱主有所隱瞞所以我們當然是以這個單位主管的不得已舉發行為與解僱調職或其他不利的處分但是我們在第二項第三項裡面最重要就是說如果查證屬實的話呢"},{"start":5663.545,"end":5678.067,"text":"草案 處以罰緩,然後要罰緩的總收入的一定比例要提充獎金來獎勵舉發人。也就是說在我們的立場上面當然是保護吹哨者之外同樣的在我們的消防法的精神是要確保"},{"start":5679.128,"end":5702.171,"text":"這些所謂的液化石油器、零售業者他們的消防安全所以我們是基於消防安全的立場來保護這個營業場所或者是銷售場所裡面不要有任何火災發生那如果說有任何其他的這項行為假設說這個舉發人或者是他可能是工作的關係會被其他的解雇的事實的話在我們的消防法裡面有保護的條款"},{"start":5703.092,"end":5707.874,"text":"草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5729.623,"end":5729.744,"text":"草案案。"},{"start":5743.447,"end":5769.418,"text":"涉嫌部長說明不過這個事情就是說只是講法不一樣強度不一樣而已嘛你按照行政院的講法就是不可以這樣那不可以這樣那你可能有若干的罰則或什麼但我們擔心強度不夠那按照比如說國民黨黨版的版本去寫說解雇降調減薪不力處分無效其實也不會增加消防單位的負擔啊因為他只是講只是在法條明令有一個依據說這個事情你要用這樣的處分方式來處理這些吹哨者是無效的"},{"start":5769.938,"end":5770.598,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具"},{"start":5793.243,"end":5813.594,"text":"但今天法條審查數量很多這個我本席也理解啦如果在這部分沒有辦法達成共識的保留的話我想我是可以接受的好不好請主席裁示我覺得這個沒有特別需要保留啦我覺得讓他們在立法說明裡面說得清楚一點就好了啦好不好好不好"},{"start":5825.891,"end":5848.207,"text":"紅委員要說嗎主席現在我們是針對政院版跟我們各黨團和委員版本這邊第15條在做討論嘛是不是那我其實剛剛在講的時候開宗明義我已經講了這是吹哨者相關的條例啦那其實最重點就在於是說我們也希望是"},{"start":5850.048,"end":5875.005,"text":"內部的人可以來去先去做舉發或是說先去做一個防範未來嗎那現階段來講看起來政院的一個部分並沒有含瓜的那麼的一個詳實所以我們也希望我們也希望是提供然後還有就主管機關如果說舉發的部分的話也要提供必要的一個法律協助或者是說能夠有一些相關的一個配套嗎"},{"start":5876.158,"end":5902.251,"text":"那在目前這次政院版裡面都沒有寫到都沒有把它給精進或是說完整的一個地方啊是不是能夠 因為我覺得很多委員都有這樣子一個立法精神跟相關的版本所以我想我們的共識也都是希望能夠用更安全或者是說其實重點在於是說真的犯罪的人或是違規的人要被揪出來啊"},{"start":5902.751,"end":5922.996,"text":"我覺得這才是我們的核心價值跟概念那怎麼樣去做讓犯罪的人違規的人他的一個犯行跟惡意被不管是內部員工不管是外部瞭解的人來去把他給踢爆而不要說造成災害發生的時候要我們的消防弟兄去以身試法或是以身"},{"start":5924.66,"end":5925.702,"text":"草案案件事齋 。"},{"start":5936.974,"end":5937.034,"text":"草案。"},{"start":5955.566,"end":5957.528,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5982.961,"end":5984.807,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5989.318,"end":6016.264,"text":"也是由勞工發現事業單位違反勞基法規定的時候得向僱主、主管機關、檢察機構申訴。第二項部分是僱主不得因勞工的申訴而以解僱降調減薪,損害其依法令或契約習慣上的應享有權益或其他不利之處分。第三項是有規定到僱主為前項行為之一者無效。"},{"start":6017.144,"end":6039.652,"text":"這個事目前在勞動基層法有作專案的規定,是要報告。好,還有沒有委員喔?對啊。好好好。好,許委員。"},{"start":6042.4,"end":6067.577,"text":"本席也有提第15條的修正動議那這個精神也是如同剛剛洪孟楷委員還有前面委員所說的我們現在如果這個吹哨者他沒有本席提案是希望如果經查證屬實但有犯刑法特別刑法之妨礙秘密罪或背信罪者免除其刑"},{"start":6068.399,"end":6084.992,"text":"原因就是說如果你還是給他輕罪他們會不敢不敢他還是不敢揭露還是不敢揭發所以我們希望是可以免除其刑那最重要就是如同剛剛前面委員所說就是能夠真正"},{"start":6086.38,"end":6090.283,"text":"草案案件事宜。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案件事宜。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6113.168,"end":6113.208,"text":"草案。"},{"start":6143.348,"end":6161.926,"text":"草案 第4項 以及在第5項第6項的部分也有做一些增加或調整那其實我就不再贅述文字的部分了啦但是我跟大家說明一下其實是行政院版的原條文呢在"},{"start":6165.768,"end":6184.813,"text":"舉發人之單位主管、僱主不得因其舉發行為而予解僱、調職或其他不利之處分。」行政院的版本是寫這樣比較簡單的文字但是呢我認為因為其實最會發生爭議的還有最會讓大家希望能夠看清楚的其實正是在這一條不利處分的部分"},{"start":6185.333,"end":6208.732,"text":"所以我參照了勞基法74條第二項的部分以及第三項的部分甚至是第四項如果有這些主管機關檢查機構於第一接獲申訴之後因為必要之調查必須60日內將處理行為以書面通知勞工等相關勞基法的規定在適當的位置呢修正進今天的要大家討論第15條這個"},{"start":6211.914,"end":6230.27,"text":"把不利處分具體明文化。」那他的標準是參照勞基法文字也是跟勞基法是一致的那這個部分呢我是希望讓這個措施可以更清楚讓雙方的權益更有獲得保障所以請大家參考好還有沒有人要發言"},{"start":6237.662,"end":6250.127,"text":"我覺得好像大家跟消防署的看法好像大家齁 我想現在只有兩個一個是保留等一下再回來 一個是我們兩分鐘大家趕快溝通一下好不好好不好來 紅委員"},{"start":6257.509,"end":6273.731,"text":"稍微我再講一下啦因為我覺得說我們在聚焦啦那個幾位委員有提出的那個修正齁就是說在修正動議裡面包括說剛剛喬惠委員講嘛就是60天以內要書面通知其實我覺得這個這個精神跟概念我覺得是予尊重啊"},{"start":6274.229,"end":6296.399,"text":"那也完整啊所以說這個我沒有反對那但是後面的部分還是牽扯到是說吹哨者的一個保護以及給予必要的一些協助的部分在勞基法74條食品安全衛生管理法水污染防治法空氣防污染防治法也都有明文規定雇主秋後算帳的一個規定嘛"},{"start":6297.259,"end":6316.832,"text":"那明定舉發人的單位主管或是雇主報復的不利待遇那來去做一個相關的一個保護所以其實其他法條也有類似的立法精神就是保障吹哨者那我們知道是說既然勞基法可以食品安全衛生可以水污染可以空氣污染可以那為什麼消防法不行"},{"start":6317.994,"end":6325.257,"text":"二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6336.016,"end":6361.982,"text":"所大家追根究底的主因。」就是我們當發生火災的時候其實第一線的消防同仁他很急想要去救災但是他根本不知道說到底裡面放了什麼東西那因為不知道裡面放了什麼東西那消防弟兄又有這個使命感又有責任心所以他往前衝的情況下造成不可挽回的憾事所以我們才會希望是說透過這次的修法裡面把這樣的憾事的狀況降到底那降到底"},{"start":6363.602,"end":6363.802,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6394.483,"end":6420.74,"text":"所以我這樣子講完我還是認為是說消防署或是說內政部既然身為這個消防法的一個主管機關你應該是要支持我們給你法源讓你能夠去鼓勵這些場所不要放置這些高危險的東西然後保障我們消防弟兄的安全嘛如果說這樣講完的話我真的希望因為我不知道說這樣子何不妥之有"},{"start":6421.872,"end":6435.471,"text":"那其他法規都可以衛福部規範的下面的這些法規或環境部下面的法規都可以放的時候為什麼內政部沒有辦法放如果說沒有辦法確定的話我覺得就直接保留了啦"},{"start":6436.533,"end":6439.636,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具"},{"start":6465.513,"end":6466.364,"text":"怎麼部長也要說嗎?"},{"start":7502.662,"end":7531.966,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7535.908,"end":7561.142,"text":"我跟你講其實大家的方向都一樣都是要保護吹噪者那只是在這個文字上要如何去做我覺得我們有一個共同的方向就是保護吹噪這是剛剛大家溝通的一個共同的想法那文字要怎麼寫我覺得消防署跟我們各位大家想一下我們這一條"},{"start":7563.763,"end":7570.245,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7600.267,"end":7603.69,"text":"草案。主席,我們請署長講一下好不好?好,署長"},{"start":7617.87,"end":7638.966,"text":"是感謝委員會而第15條之六原來消防原來的行政院的原來條文他是講說製造儲存或及處理場所這三種東西這三個場所累積的量達到30倍就算我要運用保安監督人跟執行安全管理的相關事項那國民黨團建議的這個條文是製造"},{"start":7643.689,"end":7668.676,"text":"一項儲存一項或者是處理的公共無線型物品場所這三個個別達到30倍才需要做保安監督我們建議是說我們原來的條文是三種只要累計這個場所合計量達到30倍我們就需要來做這方面的安全管理我們比較嚴格原來的條文比較嚴格"},{"start":7671.388,"end":7678.439,"text":"來 其他那個 署長是你說的這樣是不是現行的比我們現在要修的還更嚴格更嚴格 對對喔是"},{"start":7683.678,"end":7710.978,"text":"來 各位還有沒有其他看法那是不是建議採比較嚴格的版本好對我不知道 聽聽大家那其他呢如果是一級的話應該是比較就是總共加起來只要打管制量的30倍就算了就是它的門檻比較低其實就比較容易必須要用比較嚴格的條文來強化這個危險管理那我認為應該是要嚴格比較好啦"},{"start":7717.079,"end":7731.075,"text":"國民黨團的委員有沒有我覺得應該只是文字解釋不同的問題啦因為我覺得精神上應該也是吧因為製造儲存或處理"},{"start":7732.136,"end":7745.951,"text":"那個消防署再說明一下好不好以你們如果事務上執行的法條的解釋會是什麼樣的方式目前這個已經現行條文已經在執行了這個工廠裡面有製造的有處理的在同一個工廠統統都會涵蓋嘛合體起來達到30天我們就算"},{"start":7749.275,"end":7764.123,"text":"草案案件。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7780.893,"end":7781.855,"text":"還是消防組說明一下"},{"start":7791.775,"end":7817.712,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心第16條原來各縣市消防局、港務消防隊港務消防隊是機構我們特收隊也是機構那港務消防隊跟特收隊任務屬性不太一樣就是目前的消防體系裡面就是有各縣市消防局、港務消防隊跟特收隊三個型態那港務消防隊跟特收隊是機構"},{"start":7819.033,"end":7834.939,"text":"但是特收隊的任務是消防署指揮中心這邊有任務我們才會派遣他出勤所以特收隊他是沒有特別要成立指揮中心的這個需要跟任務性都是由消防署的指揮中心來派遣"},{"start":7835.399,"end":7853.016,"text":"所以是不是容許就是我們原來機制就是各縣消防局一定有指揮中心那港務消防隊也有指揮中心那特授隊這個部分我們要去列可能在目前人力跟編制上面真的有它的困難性是不是容許我們原來的機制繼續讓它運作不要架構"},{"start":7861.035,"end":7861.295,"text":"草案案。"},{"start":7874.912,"end":7878.995,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":7907.407,"end":7934.452,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員針對第21條之一本席這邊的特別修正動議的主要想表達的是平時相對於火災發生時平時的配置不一定是即時就是火災發生時正確的平面配置所以本席在修正動議裡面是提到要因即時修正"},{"start":7935.572,"end":7944.837,"text":"二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7950.82,"end":7972.696,"text":"與火災發生時主動調度救災所需機械協助搶救。」本席是好奇這個管理權人他有能力主動調度救災所需重機械嗎?所以這一對所以這一塊本席是等於是修正動議是建議刪除那所以大概這兩點謝謝"},{"start":7975.131,"end":7979.834,"text":"二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":7991.48,"end":8017.687,"text":"增加上面兩項平常除了必須要設置它的平面圖以外而且火災發生時要專人到現場救災以外這兩個跟原版是一樣的但是我們希望增加定期上傳到中央主管機關的指定的網路平台那這個定期的跟相關的辦法由中央主管機關定定之好 謝謝然後吳清明委"},{"start":8021.334,"end":8038.98,"text":"一百零八年我就有提過修法通過的消防法必須保障第一線的消防人員刪遣退避錢資訊錢還有調查錢之前發生了屏東的名陽大火造成很多我們消防人員的傷亡"},{"start":8039.74,"end":8041.142,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具"},{"start":8055.842,"end":8068.819,"text":"那我現在增加的就是儲存化學品只倉庫儲存場所之管理管理全人應以下類的規定辦理謝謝黃委員"},{"start":8075.083,"end":8102.469,"text":"好 那這一條其實非常重要因為是在民洋大火之後其實我們上個會期也通過公服法的修法那其實上個會期我有提案那在消防法裡面關於消防員的資訊權到底要怎麼保障我原本的內容是也有跟其實跟紅綠朝偉的意思差不多就是應該要定期更新這個相關的圖資而且應該要上傳到某一個地方是可以馬上取得最新的形式"},{"start":8103.129,"end":8118.017,"text":"那當然我有看內政部給我們的意見他是說就是接下來的資訊形式會在哪裡不一定是書面或雲端那現行的條文反而更有彈性那這樣的說法我也認同只是說這個精神一定要在就是"},{"start":8120.398,"end":8142.011,"text":"這個資訊一定要放在某個地方而且是最新的讓消防員資訊詮釋獲得最完整的保障我相信這個意旨一定要放進去所以我希望到時候的文字即便沒有明確的寫說雲端或是書面那你至少這樣相關的文字要保留以上建議 謝謝好 還有沒有委員那消防組說一下"},{"start":8143.072,"end":8171.578,"text":"感謝委員對第15條21條之一的關心事實上資訊的取得也是部長上任以後特別交代要怎麼整合資訊所以在後續的建設裡面我們指揮中心依舊指揮中心的系統裡面的整合這個整合包括建築物的資訊就國土署的資訊建築資訊還有化學雲那化學雲資訊就像剛剛黃委員所提到化學雲資訊目前已經有各部會的資訊的結合"},{"start":8173.338,"end":8201.669,"text":"公務法要求多久更新?環境部、勞動部等部會分別針對所列管場所的危險物品上管更新也有一定的頻次。這些資訊完全都是在化學雲的雲端,所以剛才委員所關心的資訊取得區塊目前正在操作運作,而且陸續在實務上的操作也呈現出來。"},{"start":8202.389,"end":8203.369,"text":"草案案件事宜提供。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":8222.757,"end":8231.485,"text":"草案案件事宜提供。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8250.422,"end":8253.666,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案件。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":8265.658,"end":8270.961,"text":"草案案件事宜和消防法部分條文修正草案案件事宜和消防法部分條文修正草案案件事宜和消防法部分條文修正"},{"start":8290.612,"end":8308.495,"text":"稍微我再補充一下剛剛各位委員還有包括我們有看到所提案的一共大概17項的提案針對21條之一大家都有非常慎重的討論所以我們把各位委員所關心的部分把它綜合成一個書面上的部分讓大家來參考一下"},{"start":8309.936,"end":8335.885,"text":"我們的國會組應該有發給各位委員的手上我跟大家唸一下就是第21條之一把工廠與儲存一定規模以上化學品之倉庫實驗室及儲存場所之管理權人應依下列規定辦理一、平時配置化學品種類數量位置平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊並於火災發生時立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊"},{"start":8337.245,"end":8340.471,"text":"二、火災發生時只派專人至現場協助救災。"},{"start":8342.15,"end":8367.327,"text":"前項一定規模以上化學品質倉庫實驗室及儲存場所由中央主管機關匯商目的事業主管機關公告之。那跟各位委員在補充報告就是說我們把那個包括那個劉委員提到桃園的這個狀況尤其是倉庫的部分把它放在這一條裡面但是倉庫的主管機關不一定是只有消防署還有包括經濟部"},{"start":8368.388,"end":8383.684,"text":"那實驗室的部分的話呢也有一些委員關心尤其是大學的實驗室包括說我們認為像中科院或是公研院或是中研院也有那這一部分的主管機關在教育部所以我們把它放到裡面去一起放進去來主管"},{"start":8384.324,"end":8387.605,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8408.713,"end":8419.16,"text":"還有儲存場所包括跟其他相關的儲存種類有關的這個主管機關一起來匯商,把它全部包含進去在我們的這一條裡面,那提供給大家參考以上。"},{"start":8422.666,"end":8439.845,"text":"謝謝主席喔我想內政部可能有誤解一下本席的意思啦如果早上有聽提案說明的話應該很清楚啦就我們講這個會有這樣的起心動念第一個要美孚倉儲嘛對不對第二個叫家樂福大火請問按照你現在內政部提出來的版本家樂福倉儲跟美孚倉儲他是存放化學物品之倉庫嗎不是吧"},{"start":8442.228,"end":8442.348,"text":"草案事項》案。"},{"start":8459.64,"end":8470.329,"text":"還有一定規模以上的大型倉儲你應該也要逐步來列入消防法的守備範圍裡面那我同意部長剛剛講就是說公服法要做一些規範當然要嘛當初總諮詢的時候你也講是雙軌並進嘛所以在這裡的時候我們是不是講說要把所謂叫一定規模以上的倉庫啦"},{"start":8476.474,"end":8477.494,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":8505.566,"end":8506.149,"text":"實驗室及儲存場所"},{"start":8512.537,"end":8541.346,"text":"不是啊,你現在寫的就是一定規模以上的話,我要把一定,我現在講的不是存放化學品的倉庫啦,是一般易燃物的倉庫你要再管嘛。是的,你先看一下,儲存化學品之倉庫頓號,實驗室及儲存場所,不是儲存化學品的儲存場所,你再看一下。儲存場所就是你說的啦。儲存場所就是你說的啦。不是不是不是。家樂福就是儲存場所啦。沒有吧,不不不,這個誤會大了,等一下。"},{"start":8543.805,"end":8552.561,"text":"來來來等一下我我不好意思喔各位欸許瑋你要我我的還我還沒發言他他找的時候我可以發言嗎"},{"start":8554.107,"end":8582.167,"text":"草案案案件。這個麻煩部長還有署長剛剛本席提的修正動議可能你們沒有聽懂在這個第一項我們特別強調平時備制化學品種類數量位置平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊後面要加病因及時修正其實意思就是隨時更新因為你平時配置的"},{"start":8582.927,"end":8607.632,"text":"可能你一開始你有這樣的一個資訊但如果沒有寫即時更新或是併應即時修正這段話的話你可能到火災的時候提供這個它不會是現場最新的本席的意思是這樣所以是不是可以看文字你們覺得要怎麼樣本席建議的是應即時修正或是你寫應隨時更新"},{"start":8612.293,"end":8630.794,"text":"而不是一開始的那個後面都有變化都沒更新不行這一塊我特別強調各位委員我覺得啦這21條之一大家的看法其實我也都認同我覺得我們這一條"},{"start":8632.421,"end":8653.599,"text":"你這個消防署你剛剛的這一個阿齁其實大家都還不大能夠圓滿接受啦齁我跟你講你們你們再去修改一下齁阿跟大家溝通一下不然我們在這邊浪費太多時間了齁這一條你們趕快去處理然後呢我們現在趕快繞一道21條之二好不好好"},{"start":8664.137,"end":8690.044,"text":"來,21條之二各位有沒有什麼意見沒有意見我們就照院板通過好,那我們現在第三章之一張明"},{"start":8692.405,"end":8710.139,"text":"這個大家有沒有什麼意見啊?應該沒有吧?我們是照行政院提案張明通過啦好不好?那再來25條之一來,各位委員來,徐委員針對第25條之一本席有幾項修正動議"},{"start":8721.911,"end":8744.027,"text":"這個有關諮詢委員任一性別比例不得少於三分之一這個沒有意見但後面消防機關代表消防機關代表還有各級消防機關限職非主管人員為限那這個諮詢會的委員"},{"start":8747.5,"end":8774.315,"text":"草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防"},{"start":8777.213,"end":8796.121,"text":"因為第一線的因為你既然是諮詢會嘛諮詢會你應該是但剛剛也有人來溝通說一定要主管機關的一定要主管那如果主管這就很好笑比如說我消防署我或消防局"},{"start":8797.281,"end":8825.295,"text":"我諮詢會又是我自己又去當諮詢會委員那我自己諮詢提供諮詢給我自己那你應該是要找其他人嘛你諮詢會你要的是一些諮詢的意見而且應該他是一個參考意見所以這個部分本席修正以限職非主管人員為限好 來消防組說明一下"},{"start":8827.847,"end":8851.568,"text":"我還沒講完不好意思還有就是說在我們這個法條裡我們看到有的地方寫植物安全衛生政策有的地方就寫安全衛生就是說植物安全衛生跟安全衛生有植物跟沒植物因為你要不要統一一下那個用詞這第二點這個本席的意見好謝謝"},{"start":8860.376,"end":8888.455,"text":"感謝委員槌尋第一個部分跟委員回報就是這個諮詢會是中央主管機關要成立的諮詢會那諮詢會的成立我們在第5點第4項諮詢會的組成任務委員會的資格條件臨片方法其他注意事項由中央主管機關定制是不是容許就是說跟委員所關注的要繼承代表會主管這個人員是不是從我們這個地方來處理"},{"start":8889.676,"end":8891.837,"text":"草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":8909.271,"end":8925.924,"text":"所以你們的意思就是說一定要有主管就對了不一定要主管就是人選我們從這個資格條件這個地方來處理我們因為諮詢會怎麼組成在第4項裡面我們要由中央主管機關訂資嘛"},{"start":8927.725,"end":8928.306,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":8953.147,"end":8975.053,"text":"我們要看他有沒有這個認知跟能力因為主管人員進去我覺得很好笑就是我們消防署要有一個諮詢會諮詢的人又是我們自己行政機關的主管去那等於我自己去成立諮詢會再提供諮詢給我本席對這個的意見是看到這個了解委員的意見"},{"start":8976.693,"end":9003.572,"text":"主席再來就是因為剛剛有特別提到公務人員協會代表本席是不是特別提一下因為現在並沒有公務人員協會代表有已經有了現在已經有了已經有了對各縣市都有好幾個縣市都有了那有很多沒有吧至少8個以上的縣市已經成立了對你看所以在這邊我順便講地方政府對你公務人員協會代表"},{"start":9004.673,"end":9029.911,"text":"我們署長說8個以上那我們有20個縣市你8個以上一定還有一些沒有嘛所以本席在這裡不好意思我本席特別先講這個有關實施的施行的這個不好意思再47條我有特別講自公佈日後6個月內施行就是針對你沒有公務人員協會沒有這個協會那你法條通過以後"},{"start":9034.634,"end":9056.756,"text":"那你沒有這個協會你至少還要有時間給他去去成立或者是去運作好所以因為你剛剛特別提到公務員協會所以我在這邊也特別提好就這樣當然到47條的時候我們還會還會再討論就是我在47條加上說你延後就是6個月內施行啊"},{"start":9058.956,"end":9062.202,"text":"就是因為你現在還是有很多沒有公務人員協會沒有這個協會阿"},{"start":9072.241,"end":9097.012,"text":"委員提醒的非主管主管這個我們就是在我答應委員就是說在訂定這個管理辦法的時候我們來注意這個區塊的組成那中央的諮詢會這人數絕對不會全國都有人數是有限制本席請教一下我們內政部有沒有公務人員協會我們消防署有沒有公務人員協會"},{"start":9098.427,"end":9122.352,"text":"那如果內政部消防署都沒有公務人員協會那你要怎麼產生?中華民國公務人員協會這已經成立了台北新北我看是不是保訓會這邊你這個公務人員協會指的是中方的還是中央的?是不是部長說誰因為署長他們比較清楚我們協會到底有多少幾個協會"},{"start":9127.461,"end":9140.399,"text":"公務人員保障協會共結感冒主席報告委員我們中國協會目前中央已經成立20個然後地方的話有成立15個那已經有成立全國公務人員協會了"},{"start":9141.693,"end":9143.334,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9158.749,"end":9159.45,"text":"公務人員協會代表"},{"start":9179.989,"end":9203.844,"text":"就不一定是消防相關的公務人員協會了沒有,如果是地方他有成立一個縣市公務人協會那縣市公務人協會是他們所屬的各縣市政府的那個公務人員都可以參加那一定也包含消防人員對,地方的是這樣那我剛剛是問中央你內政部跟消防署沒有公務人員協會啊對,目前內政部還沒成立消防署也沒有吧"},{"start":9204.548,"end":9222.399,"text":"我們就有部會成績目前是後面是會扣除所以這邊公務人員協會代表到底是你就是反正地方的也可以中央的也可以的意思那就看他們當初那個諮詢會的組成規定是怎麼樣我現在就在談諮詢會因為這文字這樣寫在這裡嘛"},{"start":9229.576,"end":9245.728,"text":"徐委員的意思是現在很多還沒有那他的代表如何產生但未來應該各縣市各種會慢慢都會成立啦你們講的是這個所以如果都會慢慢成立其實在法律對他們要保障我認為也是好的"},{"start":9245.828,"end":9246.889,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9276.087,"end":9303.49,"text":"一般的公務人員有機關的公務人員但也有消防公務人員那可是我們現在在討論的是消防人員職業安全衛生諮詢會他還是定義在消防人員所以我覺得比較我們大家都要把一次修好一點而且也比較不會有疑慮或說其他的一個旁支我認為是說是不是公務人員協會的這一個代表部分把他給寫清楚他是消防消防公務人員"},{"start":9304.531,"end":9308.818,"text":"那這樣子其實避免這個爭議嘛因為你後面院版25條之一"},{"start":9311.011,"end":9336.621,"text":"組成任務委員資格條件由中央主管機關定之。」你還是中央主管定之嘛那我相信你們的一個定之的方向也一定是希望公務人員協會朝消防人員來嘛那如果說這樣的話我們就是在25條之1的法源裡面我們就把它寫清楚因為這對應什麼對應25條之3本席有提案我們25條之3裡面就有要求是說要有基層消防人員所以其實現在討論的東西就是"},{"start":9338.502,"end":9340.463,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9360.373,"end":9361.634,"text":"草案案件事務委員委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9392.78,"end":9413.589,"text":"25條之二,大家有沒有意見?條文我看都是一樣的啦,好不好?那我們就照...照行政院版通過好不好?來,25條之三25條之三好像..."},{"start":9420.1,"end":9448.49,"text":"沒有什麼差別好不好?我們就照院版通過啦好不好?那個...哈?怎樣?誰?什麼?性別的部分這個25條之3我肯定我先肯定是說這個院版的版本裡面有寫說至少一人為消防基層人員啦代表這個基層人員的心聲一定要聽到啦那一樣就是說我這邊有在提出的版本是說要求任意性別平等不得低於三分之一啦"},{"start":9449.17,"end":9452.093,"text":"消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等21人擬具"},{"start":9464.187,"end":9469.79,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9489.599,"end":9490.119,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9508.652,"end":9523.482,"text":"我的主張啊,因為我覺得你在現場的,這種你如果納進去後面的問題會很大的喔,是不是大家考慮一下,我主張不要納進去。"},{"start":9526.946,"end":9545.363,"text":"李委員原則上我對國民黨這個提案對於性別提出來不是表示肯定但是聽到剛剛消防署有講到現在消防署的人力的比例是9比1男女性別比例是9比1那這一方面是不是大家協調斟酌一下"},{"start":9562.448,"end":9587.908,"text":"因為這個小組是基層要組成的是沒錯對基層要成立的這個跟剛剛我們有委員提到什麼輪班那是完全不一樣啊這是小組嘛也是要讓這個消防員這邊提出小組然後來討論相關的一個事宜嘛縣是第一縣同仁是沒有錯所以說署長你剛剛有提到一個就是說因為現在的比例相對來講是91嘛是不是所以說才會有人也會"},{"start":9588.829,"end":9589.67,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9618.829,"end":9639.091,"text":"按照公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法四條一項規定各機關指定適當人員並得聘請相關專家學者組成安全及衛生防護小組所以說考量消防署在現實上執行當然理想狀態百分之百是基層而且有外勤經驗的人員這當然是最好的狀況但是有沒有機會來做一下平衡也就是說在部分裡面"},{"start":9640.612,"end":9655.705,"text":"這個其實是政府機關的裁量權限也就是說用外部的學者專家提供點不同的意見那這個相對來講你要找女性的成員就相對來講就比較容易所以是不是用這樣的方式來做處理因為你自己本來院版的條文都只有寫只有一人為消防基層人員"},{"start":9656.766,"end":9657.306,"text":"草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9675.293,"end":9678.097,"text":"任意性別必須受到保障。"},{"start":9691.395,"end":9706.471,"text":"署長我們如果就是性別單一性別需受保護我們不要訂三分之一啦這樣就是有保障女性嘛不然你女性三分之一全部都人都在那裡了"},{"start":9707.768,"end":9732.142,"text":"來徐瑋本席這邊針對25條之3這個消防基層比例人員至少一個太少是不是可以比例不得低於五分之一這樣可以嗎因為你至少有一位很奇怪你是不是不得低於至少五分之一是消防基層人員這是本席提案的修正動議謝謝"},{"start":9735.407,"end":9754.506,"text":"感謝委員,如果說是用這個角度來處理,我們可能會比較有空間,不要說用單一性別,就是基層同仁一定要……這是兩件事,對性別有意見的委員,等於這可以討論,跟他們來溝通,粉席是針對基層的消防委員。"},{"start":9757.329,"end":9765.112,"text":"還是回答你而已,這回答你的啦。主席,現在這沒感覺啦,剛才那個三分之一先下去處理啦。是不是可以...因為當然我們是要補充路線的,但是你說你如果寒暄三分之一是不是你有困難度還是什麼,你說清楚怎麼去補充這裡的路線啊。"},{"start":9785.871,"end":9789.994,"text":"審查委員長蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員長蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9811.104,"end":9813.646,"text":"草案案件 。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9835.282,"end":9844.426,"text":"草案案件事宜提出。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9863.234,"end":9887.675,"text":"目前的計劃從明年開始執行目前我們正在處理這個區塊讓職業安全、國外的經驗制度演進到我們體系裡面來那這個對消防體系來講也是在學習所以怎麼樣把這個體系能夠做得好、建置得好讓它走得下去不要怕到因為我們之前有事辦就縣市就認為說我們要求太多反正是怕到的這是我們困難點謝謝主席"},{"start":9891.311,"end":9908.894,"text":"就針對這個任意性別比例不得低於三分之一本席想請教現在這應該包含所有消防機關相關的公務人員吧並不是指第一線的吧對對對對就是消防局嘛其實消防局應該有很多"},{"start":9909.835,"end":9917.443,"text":"也應該有不少女性的公務人員或者是相關人員,所以並不是指第一線的消防員。"},{"start":9927.033,"end":9954.373,"text":"有主計人士當然會有,但是主計人士這些對我們的安全防護是不是能夠真的提供我們外勤需要的安全防護的角度,這是我們考慮的地方。就是一定要委員部說這個定下去後要能夠真的要去讓對他們是有幫助的,那同仁才會接受到這樣的想法跟建議,這是我們目前操作以後討論過以後大概有這樣的一個困境的問題。因為性別三分之一,"},{"start":9955.414,"end":9972.46,"text":"他雖然第一線的經驗可能沒有但他可能可以反映很多相關的意見所以這一塊我的意思是說你也可以這樣思考最後這個比例當然以修法的提案的委員跟您這邊協調只是"},{"start":9974.505,"end":9998.895,"text":"你公務單位三分之一女性現在我覺得各個單位女性其實都不少委員如果允許的話我們就是在立法說明裡面先不要列在條文裡面立法說明就是說我們朝向單一性別比率的方式達到三分之一這個方式不要強制去要求讓他縣市在執行上面有他的談刑來來來"},{"start":10000.576,"end":10026.922,"text":"我覺得大家說的都有道理啦我還是強調啦這個是很重要的法案我們也不要輕率去去把它決定好不好我們還是溝通啦好不好我們往下走好不好不然我們條文太多了好不好來那我們25條之四來各位看起來"},{"start":10029.841,"end":10057.12,"text":"看起來都差不多,各位有沒有意見?沒有,那就照院辦通過。來,25條之五。好像也都差不多。主席沒有意見。好像也都差不多。好吧,那就照院辦通過。25條之六。他人又不炸了。"},{"start":10063.417,"end":10071.243,"text":"來25條之6也是差不多啦好那我們是不是照原本通過來25條之7蛤"},{"start":10075.543,"end":10104.084,"text":"那個好像過去如果大家都一致的是不是主席可以才是照案通過而不是才是照行政院版通過因為如果大家都一樣表示大家提案的沒有啦我們這邊我們內政委員會都是照這樣都是講照行政院版我沒有自己發明的你可以去查我沒有但是奇怪過去我們是照案通過不不不不一樣不一樣不一樣不一樣不一樣"},{"start":10105.25,"end":10108.312,"text":"來我們25條之七各位有沒有意見沒有齁那就照原本通過來25條之八黃委員好這個剛剛其實消防署有來跟我溝通過了那也會把我的建議採納進去嗎是這樣子嗎"},{"start":10133.874,"end":10141.112,"text":"那還是說你們有新的文字嗎還是說就照現在你們現在的文字如果有的話是不是請消防署再補充說明一下"},{"start":10142.219,"end":10165.648,"text":"是很感謝委員這個條文我們委員都很關心女性黃捷委員還有好幾位委員都特別對女性前面也講到女性通證的關心那我們是嘗試這個條文是用這樣的方式來處理就是我報告一下什麼嘗試報告一下第25條是把各級消防機關應考量消防人員性別"},{"start":10166.488,"end":10181.038,"text":"草案00身心狀況等因素這特殊需要提供適當之環境安全衛生防護設備及措施。這是第一項。第二項就是各級消防機關對於女性認成中"},{"start":10181.758,"end":10198.765,"text":"或分娩後未滿兩年是消防人員,屬應提供適當之環境安全衛生防護設備及措施外,並應依醫師適性評估建議,採取勤務調整或必要之"},{"start":10199.565,"end":10203.327,"text":"草案 健康保護措施 。」主席是不是文字印的讓大家看看"},{"start":10222.978,"end":10224.26,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10238.249,"end":10257.854,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10270.172,"end":10274.793,"text":"草案案件事宜提供"},{"start":10289.696,"end":10292.34,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10307.703,"end":10322.975,"text":"案。二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10339.723,"end":10355.607,"text":"應該都差不多了齁,來,好,那我們照行政院通過來,那我們25條之10這個范雲委員嘛范雲委員沒有,他人不在現場,我們就不予討論了好不好來,我們27條我們27條之1"},{"start":10364.491,"end":10367.936,"text":"草案案。二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10384.315,"end":10389.637,"text":"二十七條之一,院版沒有修正,這是現行條文,但是我們看到是說從2019年通過災害事故調查委員會,調查會那就是要針對這個傷亡的調查"},{"start":10401.562,"end":10419.961,"text":"那因為目前在於是說只有災害搶救的死亡或重傷事故才起調查但其實消防人員的情誤包羅萬象啊不只是有災害搶救還有緊急救護消防安全火災調查以及預防等等相關所以說本期才會把"},{"start":10421.408,"end":10439.221,"text":"其他情務不只是災害搶救只要應該是說我們如果說消防弟兄在出勤的執勤公務的時候執勤勤務的時候而導致發生死亡重傷或者是暫時全失能的事故應該要啟動這個相關的調查會那其實這都是捕獲網啦"},{"start":10440.422,"end":10456.361,"text":"所以我想大家就一起支持因為我們都不希望這些事情發生其實這個事情我們都不希望發生不希望有死亡不希望有重傷不希望有戰時全失能但如果說真的有這樣的狀況的話把他含瓜再進去好不好以上謝謝來消防署"},{"start":10460.011,"end":10474.983,"text":"很感謝委員關心而事故的經驗跟教訓跟累積這是我們現在重視的重點也就是消防治安的重點為什麼會發生事情每一件發生事情我們一定會進入了解跟調查跟檢討"},{"start":10476.124,"end":10491.972,"text":"所以包括目前發生的near miss包括輕傷包括住院重傷訓練死亡或者是救災罹難這些都是在現況裡面我們訂定一個消防機關事故調查分級分層機制的實行計畫"},{"start":10494.633,"end":10497.615,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10514.608,"end":10537.365,"text":"所以原來只有中央主管機關調查這樣的精神那我們院裡面部裡面也參考委員的一個意見嘗試你出說從中央也要成立這樣的一個調查機制縣市不是說發生事情都是中央的事情縣市也要成立調查機制"},{"start":10537.825,"end":10552.723,"text":"也就是把我們分級分成四個機制的這種想法融入後續的包括治安的推動的這個精神納入後續的一個經驗累積那這些經驗累積就是每一年委員會這邊有要求我們要成"},{"start":10554.125,"end":10562.069,"text":"草案案件簽署。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10579.377,"end":10580.938,"text":"草案案件的重大處理。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10598.171,"end":10603.653,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10620.299,"end":10623.34,"text":"案。二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10645.505,"end":10661.028,"text":"不不不部長您先請坐我跟你講這個署長我們來立法院其實也很久了立法院我們在審條文在審什麼的立法院的格式"},{"start":10662.196,"end":10689.732,"text":"我們的消防署竟然都還不知道嗎?你們給我們的格式是不對的捏所以我覺得這個我們先不討論這立法院我們還是有立法院的尊嚴在我覺得你們去把它更改好你們的修正我們才來討論好不好來我們先各位委員不好意思我們這個就先這樣好不好那我們先往28條走好不好"},{"start":10695.924,"end":10711.348,"text":"來,王委員主席,我有修正動議,來賓這條本身是覺得要維護既消泡溫下地的管理,我覺得這要明目規定在既消來賓適用於25條紀律及"},{"start":10715.885,"end":10722.671,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10738.7,"end":10762.707,"text":"二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10763.379,"end":10784.88,"text":"草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10787.645,"end":10801.993,"text":"感謝委員我們在草案這個領略這個條文的時候一開始是針對主要針對消防經驗在開會過程當中疫消而且別提醒疫消也是我們救災經驗所以在裡面的條文裡面就是"},{"start":10803.314,"end":10804.554,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10824.6,"end":10829.125,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10850.09,"end":10879.234,"text":"這個部分我們是用德來做這方面的處理就是因為這邊的經費還是由地方政府來處理這個區塊我們讓這個機制讓它能夠運作的下去在條文裡面來做處理當然中央的經費我們可以來補助的地方我們用消防法的精神來做補助那同樣地方政府他應該也要有這方面的精神來做處理所以這個是中央地方共同要來處理的地方"},{"start":10879.654,"end":10893.488,"text":"那這個條文主要的內容跟想法可能很多部分是要地方政府來處理的地方那我們很支持很贊同對異消同仁的一個保障跟確保那這個部分不能由中央來處理嗎"},{"start":10897.731,"end":10916.469,"text":"因為我們現在都是我們通過然後讓地方買單其實這個地方的財政現在相對的困難所以我們是用德的方式來處理就一步一步來啦就是地方政府像有些地方政府他的財政狀況比較理想的狀況他對於印銷的保障就比較多一點"},{"start":10917.369,"end":10933.201,"text":"財政狀況好的我相信他們對預銷的保障本來就多了啦現在當然是只針對財政狀況不好他們可能就是沒有那樣的經費才需要中央的幫忙所以這個部分是不是可以納入跟消防人員同等的這個好不好我們再來就中央的預算"},{"start":10934.002,"end":10936.183,"text":"草案案件事宜提出。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10963.256,"end":10964.838,"text":"草案的修正要怎麼處理?"},{"start":10982.726,"end":10998.143,"text":"主席、署長、各位委員大家好針對第28條第2項本席28條第3項本席是支持就是讓我們所有疫消的人員他的福利保障更多更安全防護可是我本席針對第28條第1項"},{"start":11001.667,"end":11028.185,"text":"他有新增文字是其他相關事項本席認為這個這個東西因為因為義消他們都是處於這個義務性的而且是處於就是對這個社會有愛心想要幫助警消的同仁的服務去做一些救災的工作所以我認為他所所有的這個服務的項目應該明定清楚不應該增加這個叫做其其其其他相關事項因為沒有明定所以我是不是先請教署長何謂"},{"start":11029.406,"end":11054.281,"text":"及其他相關事項。」就是過去這些文字我相信訂的非常的明確何謂是及其他相關事項我相信要讓所有逸霄的好朋友知道說未來增加這些文字以後他們有沒有需要付出相關的什麼義務還有就是為什麼之前不修現在要修這一條是不是過去逸霄的工作有遇到相關的困難"},{"start":11056.062,"end":11072.927,"text":"當然最近大家常討論賴清德總統的全社會防衛任性的這個東西我也想請署長報告一下是不是跟賴清德總統的全社會防衛任性有關所以你們才修增加這樣的文字以上請回答"},{"start":11073.78,"end":11079.282,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11101.032,"end":11125.63,"text":"副宣的出勤、他去扶勤、出勤或其他勤務在路上出狀況這些都是我們在原來可能沒有在這個管理辦法裡面所列到的所以我們把這些可能之前上面出的狀況的一些保障能夠在這個地方列進去這是首先跟委員報告那這樣的列進去以後相對於對異消人員的訓練、裝備、器材"},{"start":11129.292,"end":11158.226,"text":"草案案件相對我們也做這方面的檢討跟調整當然中央政府有做檢討調整以後地方政府他也對於他縣市所所服勤的疫消人員因為我們現在疫消人員不是傳統的打火疫消可能無人機的操作可能山域的救援、水域的救援都是在目前的疫消的廣義的疫消人員的一個服勤裡面甚至我們連後勤的疫消也是我們目前在"},{"start":11158.746,"end":11161.127,"text":"草案案件事宜提供。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11191.236,"end":11208.335,"text":"不好意思署長你解釋的很詳細可是我本席聽不太懂就是說過去的文字跟你現在剛講的文字的服務範圍本席認為是一樣的所以是不是有沒有增加這樣的文字的必要我覺得是打一個問號那我還剛有請教一個問題是比較這個當然是比較"},{"start":11213.08,"end":11215.801,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具"},{"start":11242.782,"end":11260.274,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11268.939,"end":11270.421,"text":"草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11276.072,"end":11303.568,"text":"他的不是傳統的打火易消所以增加的那可能增加的情境遇到的狀況可能都會不一樣那針對不一樣的狀況我們在服務金辦法裡面必須要讓他能夠列入在辦法裡面的服務金項目這是我們起信動念那這些列進去以後真的出狀況以後後面對易消的裝備器材訓練甚至後面真的出狀況的一個保障這些事能夠列進去"},{"start":11304.088,"end":11326.334,"text":"我們期待是能夠列進去那當然這個跟總統所宣示的全社會任性防護這個是兩回事啦一開始我就報告我們的疫消人員不管是什麼疫消就是只要人命災害現場需要疫消消防人員出勤我們一定會出勤而且執行救災救援的任務"},{"start":11329.332,"end":11357.108,"text":"好 各位我們討論很久其實大家都有共識我們就是有他們有修正的就在這邊啦齁來 張偉我還是要跟署長拜託啦齁這一條的修正齁因為我還是要個別提到齁就是這條其實相對應來是相當的完整啦就是您剛剛講的編組訓練演習扶勤就是所有我們義消還有救護人員甚至未來"},{"start":11358.129,"end":11364.594,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11388.16,"end":11416.757,"text":"是,跟委員報告,剛才就是,原來是傳統打火易消,那現在是增加空拍、無人機的易消,有後勤的易消,有水域的易消,有山域的易消,這個都是原來的易消範圍在擴大,所以山域的易消有山域易消的山域的救援裝備,水域有水域的救援裝備器材。署長這以前就有在做啦,我是說以前跟現在到底是哪一些不一樣的,你要讓他們增加其他相關事項。"},{"start":11418.049,"end":11419.01,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11437.09,"end":11437.31,"text":"草案案。"},{"start":11461.833,"end":11489.676,"text":"是不是建議署長趕快跟張委員做個溝通在國民黨團的提案以及其他委員的提案裡面其實都有把其他相關事項放進來那是為了讓未來如果遇到相關的補助需求的時候萬一沒有規範在這個法條裡面的時候有一個空間可以處理那請消防署就這一點來跟張委員說明清楚"},{"start":11491.317,"end":11505.54,"text":"來我處理一下齁張志倫委員反對齁那我們先保留阿你跟他們溝通齁要看張志倫委員他反對的理由是什麼好不好那我們趕快進去下齁第35條好不好來35條各位有沒有意見其實都差不多啦差不多沒有意見好林委員"},{"start":11524.717,"end":11548.425,"text":"謝謝主席啊這個大部分的委員版本跟政院版本的差異大概就是多了5、6、7嘛對不對製造30倍以上的場所這個沒有問題第6跟第7啦21條一項之一一項一款這我們剛剛因為跟21條有關啦所以為立即提供書面或雲端資訊或者是所謂的被製作的不完整的虛偽不實則應該列入罰則"},{"start":11550.475,"end":11573.027,"text":"那或者是未指派知情專人至現場協助救災者也應該列入法則,我覺得這不會不合理啊?討論一下好不好?很感謝委員的一個垂詢,正在第6款跟第7款我們在跟法務單位,因為這個條文是刑事法"},{"start":11574.315,"end":11578.817,"text":"草案 刑事法 判刑問題 法務部意見針對罪行要具體法定與具體行為。"},{"start":11594.564,"end":11612.604,"text":"當然委員很關心這樣的情形我們在相對的條文裡面也有一些行政處罰的措施是不是在這個地方我們可以不再處理第6款跟第7款的內容由其他行政處罰的一個行政措施來執行"},{"start":11615.01,"end":11635.072,"text":"其實在這個第六款跟第七款委員提案的版本裡面其實都講得蠻清楚嘛他不是只是講說他寫得很清楚嘛就是沒有立即提供嘛然後第二個叫做應該要有知情的專人協助救災他完全不派嘛所以他的因果關係其實非常清楚嘛既然因果關係非常清楚而且也易於究責的話那是不是就應該要加重處罰嘛"},{"start":11636.013,"end":11661.546,"text":"你本來政院的在書面上回應是講說沒有辦法確認跟自災有沒有必然關係寫了一大堆但是現在很清楚法條竟然有講我們現在要讓資訊權對不對讓救災人清楚的得知資訊然後第二個就是說這個包含事前的提供資料還有現場的指派專人其實都是快速的提供資訊嘛那這兩項其實是很明確的嘛你在每一場救災的時候都可以很清楚的知道到底有沒有派人有沒有提供資訊這是很清楚的"},{"start":11661.866,"end":11662.707,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具"},{"start":11684.147,"end":11704.34,"text":"是保護部給我們指導一下就是委員身家的第6款跟第7款這樣子的事情什麼的我覺得齁我聽聽也是有道理啦反正我們有道理的我們都先說明先到時候溝通、協調好不好好來那我們35條就先這樣我們來37條來各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11720.704,"end":11739.198,"text":"草案的強度有問題嗎?草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度有問題嗎?對啦。草案的強度"},{"start":11748.585,"end":11750.446,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11769.653,"end":11788.884,"text":"很感謝委員關心我們原來條文是只要這個情形不管是第一次第二次他就可以來做這樣的比較營業的停業處分或停止使用那委員這樣的條文是說一定要達到三次才能夠要求"},{"start":11789.932,"end":11807.832,"text":"那是不是可以給縣市就原來我第一次如果是真的情形嚴重或第二次情形嚴重我就直接處理了不用等到第三次是不是可以用這樣子那不是寫說要等到第三次那是指貨因為你正院版的正院版的叫做這個前項規定處罰然後通知縣級改善者"},{"start":11808.573,"end":11819.602,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11835.814,"end":11863.885,"text":"所以我覺得應該是還OK啦是不是是跟委員報告齁因為我們的列管場所包括集合住宅一般的集合住宅那一般集合住宅像有些場所他的管理委員會沒有存在或者是他沒有辦法出這個錢那如果說我們強制三次集合住宅要停止使用我們是考慮到多層面的問題才會建議委員會這邊能夠考量這個因素啦當然灑出去後就一體適用囉"},{"start":11865.365,"end":11867.847,"text":"三、繼續審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11895.362,"end":11905.028,"text":"40條其實看起來沒有特別啦不知道各位有沒有意見好沒有意見40條到行政院板通過來42條40條42條"},{"start":11918.669,"end":11933.062,"text":"事實上我覺得違規造成火災更容易發生很多救災的不方便我覺得這個法則本身是覺得要再提高42條好那個署長"},{"start":11943.637,"end":11962.074,"text":"我們在討論這個條文的時候已經把這個額度升高已經升高到相當的程度那是不是要再往上調因為我們的處罰的對象就剛剛有報告很多的類型那處罰的行為有很有輕的有重的有非常重的"},{"start":11962.714,"end":11973.1,"text":"有不同的情形。對啦,本席就是跟你說,因為去年兩萬嘛,我沒來你擔嘛。但是有的想過,有的想過,那個時候,你們說最高30萬齁。本席是覺得你們要調整為100萬齁,這樣才有一個好主作用啦。"},{"start":11988.011,"end":12016.552,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續�"},{"start":12018.938,"end":12046.793,"text":"條文修正草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續�"},{"start":12058.943,"end":12059.383,"text":"也是跟剛剛的一樣來 署長"},{"start":12068.798,"end":12093.047,"text":"我們原來的條文是建議原來的條文就是負責人及行為人處罰1萬到5萬然後病得命期性改善那技術改善得點去處罰當然委員會這邊有建議就是用暗刺然後或的話我們原來是負責人跟行為人都可以處罰"},{"start":12094.187,"end":12109.293,"text":"草案案件。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12123.018,"end":12124.738,"text":"草案案件事宣告。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":12143.342,"end":12143.422,"text":"草案。"},{"start":12162.564,"end":12163.284,"text":"主席跟委員說明"},{"start":12185.947,"end":12186.047,"text":"草案。"},{"start":12209.827,"end":12216.69,"text":"案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":12238.78,"end":12242.282,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等22人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等22人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等22人擬具"},{"start":12261.88,"end":12277.404,"text":"是 感謝委員對於這個是採取狀況的一個活在調查的一個狀況的一個處理那第二項是針對災調會的一個狀況就災調會處理他不提供調閱或提供文字資料要處罰6000到10萬元以下罰款"},{"start":12280.725,"end":12285.149,"text":"消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12305.208,"end":12313.433,"text":"草案案件事宜提供。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12330.444,"end":12350.775,"text":"之前在調查的時候有一些機關可能有一些保留但是後來都還是有提供我想這個是我們目前操作的信息部門報告主席因為這一條我們是根據這個剛剛第27條之一的這個有沒有組成災害事故調查會的那個部分因為既然剛剛那條保留是不是應該這條也是跟著那個聯動好不好"},{"start":12351.575,"end":12380.069,"text":"沒錯我先說明一下立場說明一下啦就是說這個委員版的意思大概就是講說是拒絕調閱提供資料才罰嘛阿你講說這個他有些時候沒有資料阿沒有資料就不是拒絕阿是他真的沒有嘛那他不會有裁罰的問題嘛是明知其有然後要求你提供因為我們剛剛前面消防法討論很多的機制就是說應該要備制應該要什麼所以很多人應該是要有的理應要有而他沒有那當然就應該要罰嘛可是他如果真的沒有或是不在消防法的守備範圍之內本來就不會罰"},{"start":12380.689,"end":12397.902,"text":"所以我是覺得針對委員的這個條文並不會有所影響反而更完整以上反正我覺得如果跟剛剛的這個有聯動你們想清楚跟委員溝通清楚好不好好謝謝委員那我們現在來事實三條之一來各位有沒有意見"},{"start":12410.274,"end":12413.236,"text":"這跟21條1連動嘛對啊21條1沒有定論之前43條1沒辦法修嘛對啊好不好我覺得這乾一包啦好不好21條1跟43條1一起嘛好那43條之2"},{"start":12438.447,"end":12451.731,"text":"其實43條之二是條文都一樣啦雖然有連但條文都一樣啦嘿啦我們就照照圓版通過啦好不好好好來43條之二照圓版通過來46條46條之一46條之一"},{"start":12470.009,"end":12489.893,"text":"這消防署說明一下,你們會不會自在難行或怎麼樣?原來警察人員一條邊的時候是有定共計辦法但是這個共計辦法福利互助政策這個部分是因為跟中央公務員福利互助辦法"},{"start":12490.953,"end":12494.156,"text":"消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":12508.507,"end":12513.989,"text":"草案案件。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12534.621,"end":12559.017,"text":"警察的部分已經廢止了所以確實不太好處理我追問我釐清一下因為我們除了講消防人員之外當然消防人員屬於公務體系所以他有一個公務體系的一些福利保障辦法但我們有講到義勇消防人員本來是可以准用的如果是從義勇消防這個角度出發他有沒有這樣的機制或這樣的可能去做所謂的互助共濟事項我請消防署提供一下意見跟說明我們釐清一下這個問題謝謝"},{"start":12561.259,"end":12562.82,"text":"草案案件。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":12590.538,"end":12592.939,"text":"草案案件事務委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12621.175,"end":12643.441,"text":"那這部分我們請消防署提供一下資料因為我們本意是要希望這個權益升級嘛那你講你的自愛難行跟實務上有些狀況先做一個說明跟說帖萬一人家問起來的時候我們總要可以說明好不好那所以不予修訂那我們就不堅持好不好好 那我們就不予修訂好不好不予鎮定不予鎮定好 那再來47條47條應該沒有什麼問題吧我們就47條應該就照"},{"start":12651.783,"end":12658.665,"text":"四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":12681.559,"end":12682.84,"text":"草案案。"},{"start":12697.73,"end":12720.004,"text":"來 各位委員還有這個消防署其實我們今天保留的條文啊非常多條而且我認為也非常的重要這一個字不一樣那個影響的非常大所以我在這邊徵求各位還有消防署這些東西你明天我們還要開會來不來得及給我們"},{"start":12727.798,"end":12736.85,"text":"我只問你明天來不來得及你就照我的回答就好啦我們再跟委員是不是容許給我們一些時間跟委員溝通你要多久"},{"start":12743.831,"end":12747.113,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":12788.799,"end":12793.721,"text":"董事長,因為有很多問題大家會考慮當中,在剛才保留這樣,你有沒有辦法在這兩星期去溝通清楚嗎?"},{"start":12802.83,"end":12804.251,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":12822.324,"end":12833.089,"text":"明天繼續開是最好啦但以今天的狀況來講我們也必須要講你明天開應該也是對嘛吼這也是沒有結果所以我們我們也不要"},{"start":12835.086,"end":12855.45,"text":"那個啦我們也要給消防署壓力啦反正我就下下禮拜再排啦對不對那總不能他說一個月我們給他一個月啊對不對齁所以我們就下下禮拜再排啦我不知道各位委員這樣子我的這樣子決定大家贊不贊成贊成就下下禮拜排啊看你們啊"},{"start":12864.189,"end":12867.158,"text":"我看你們要禮拜一還是禮拜三禮拜四我都尊重大家啊"},{"start":12870.52,"end":12895.153,"text":"好啦齁 那所以我們大家都有共識我們就這樣子好不好好好好我們委員會我請教一下這個是我們的幕僚單位會不會準備一個因為現在有很多條文已經有共識的他們會重新整理過精簡的版本嘛對對會重新整理過我們就不用再那麼複雜了就還保留的來討論而已好 謝謝我剛剛也有請教他們也是要時間處理啦好 謝謝趙委員"},{"start":12899.44,"end":12917.21,"text":"草案案第3、第4、第5、第6案。因為今天補上,我都公佈不會審理這個委員的修正動作。接下來學商學問,我覺得針對我們今天有交行政案通過的也要唸一下,保留哪幾條唸一下好不好?"},{"start":12919.983,"end":12938.474,"text":"那各位委員那我們現在啊齁我們先因為剛剛有一些委員有提新的修正動議我們還是把它唸一下讓消防署可以在這一個禮拜之內去處理啦阿但是你不唸他就沒辦法處理啊好不好齁那我正確的話我們就唸一下好不好"},{"start":12938.914,"end":12939.695,"text":"我們現在補宣讀修正動議3456"},{"start":12955.174,"end":12982.081,"text":"草案。」案。修正動議三、第十五條,第八項修正為,舉發人因其揭露行為經查證屬實但有犯刑法特別刑法之妨害秘密罪或背信罪者免出棄刑。其餘同國民黨黨團提案。第二十一條之一,第一款修正為,平時備制化學品種類數量位置平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊,並因即時修正或在發生時應立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":12983.281,"end":12992.088,"text":"草案 第25條之一第二項後段增訂消防機關代表以各級消防機關非限職非主管人員違憲其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":12993.649,"end":13013.875,"text":"第25條之3後段修正為且消防基層人員比例不得低於五分之一其餘同國民黨黨團提案。第47條增訂第二項本法中華民國全年、全月、全日之修正條文自公佈日後6個月內施行其餘同現行條文提案人委員徐信穎等3人。"},{"start":13014.918,"end":13031.004,"text":"修正動議4,第21條之一,第一項第一款前段增加平時與警衛室或有人經常駐守且獨立於主要建築物外之其他相類處所或經消防機關指定之處所。"},{"start":13032.364,"end":13046.556,"text":"第三款修正委火災發生時指派經中央主管機關公告之息火災預防資訊之專人立即至現場協助救災經指派之人不能立即到場者應急令行指派他人。其餘同委員牛許廷等人提案。"},{"start":13048.43,"end":13065.077,"text":"第43條之一第1、2、3項違反第21條之一第一項第一款規定之文字修正為違反第21條之一第一款文字修正為違反第21條之一第一項第一款規定"},{"start":13066.397,"end":13091.845,"text":"增訂第4項經管理權人依第21條之一第1項第3款指派規定指派之人無正當理由未立即到場或待遇協助救災者處該被指派之人新台幣20萬元以上50萬元以下罰還。原第4項第5項一列第5項第6項其餘同委員牛許亭等提案提案人委員牛許亭等3人"},{"start":13094.382,"end":13121.101,"text":"動議五、第二十八條第一項刪除及其他相關事項等文字。第三項修正為參加第一項義勇消防組織人員之安全衛生防護事項得准用第二十五條之二第二項及第二十五條之四規定及第二十五條之六第一項規定。其餘同行政院提案提案人委員張志倫等四人修正動議六"},{"start":13123.137,"end":13149.455,"text":"第21條之一,工廠儲存化學品或一定規模以上之倉庫及公共危險物品室內儲存場所之管理權人因下列規定辦理一,平時備制並上網申報化學品或儲存物品之種類、數量、位置、平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊,並與火災發生時可供消防指揮人員與網上查閱。二、平時建立重機械業者資訊與火災發生時主動調度救災所需重機械協助搶救,"},{"start":13149.935,"end":13179.159,"text":"草案 並支付所有必要費用。三、火災發生時指派知情專人立即至現場協助救災。其一知情專人由中央主管機關公告或訂定相關標準。場所之管理權人不能或未及依前項第二款調度時主管機關得代為調度並依項其求償相關必要費用。第一項一定規模以上倉庫之認定標準由中央主管機關定之。第一項第一款化學品或儲存物品之認定申報方式格式頻率方式保存"},{"start":13180.099,"end":13207.813,"text":"資訊公開工商機密保護方式及其他應遵行事向之辦法由中央主管機關定之。提案人委員徐玉珍等3人宣讀完畢。好那我們現在宣讀協商結論消防法部分條文修正草案第一條照行政院版本通過第9條不予修訂維持現行版本"},{"start":13209.045,"end":13230.917,"text":"第15條保留。第15條之六不予修訂維持現行條文。第16條不予修訂維持現行條文。第21條之一保留。第21條之二照行政院版本通過。增訂第三章章名照行政院版通過。第25條之一保留。"},{"start":13233.871,"end":13258.919,"text":"第25條之二造行政院版本通過第25條之三保留第25條之四造行政院版本通過第25條之五造行政院版本通過第25條之六造行政院版本通過第25條之七造行政院版本通過第25條之八保留第25條之九造行政院版本通過"},{"start":13262.025,"end":13283.329,"text":"第25條之10不予增訂。第27條之1保留。第28條、第35條、第37條保留。第40條照行政院版本通過。第42條、第42條之1保留。第42條之3照行政院版本通過。第43條保留。第43條之1保留。第43條之2照行政院版本通過。"},{"start":13291.887,"end":13318.881,"text":"草案。第46條之一,不予增訂。第47條,照行政院版本通過。以上。不好意思齁,剛剛25條之八後來這個消防署有給我們他們修正通過了。大家有沒有意見?如果沒有意見這一條,就是黃捷委員他的那個保障女性消防人員的這個"},{"start":13322.545,"end":13347.976,"text":"這個懷孕認診的還有42條之一是不是也照這個修正通過還有42條之一就是那個牛軒亭委員說暗刺的那一個所以這兩條我現在在徵求如果這兩條也都修正通過了我們就不保留了沒有那兩條剛剛說過了對阿我再次確認"},{"start":13349.622,"end":13371.447,"text":"因為我們剛剛是都沒有意見但是他們的書面現在來所以我還是要徵求跟大家如果沒有意見這兩條就按照修正通過好不好就不用保留請問各位委員相關條文有協商結論照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過請問有異議"},{"start":13377.449,"end":13377.689,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13399.957,"end":13401.079,"text":"草案案件事項 。三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":13413.499,"end":13437.402,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":13442.447,"end":13444.932,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-5","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等23人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張宏陸等26人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查國民黨黨團擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員邱若華等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。【第十七、十八案如經復議則不予審查。】\n\n【10月16日、17日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:17 - 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交通產業發展及國際事務司陳晉生司長 綜合規劃司張垂龍司長 交通科技及資訊司黃欣勳司長 會計處張信一處長 人事處陳昆遠處長"},{"start":2000.819,"end":2029.493,"text":"秘書處黃定環處長政風處劉廣基處長法制處許鴻達處長還有統計處陳慧欣處長還有我們觀光署周永輝署長中央氣象署陳佳萍署長還有我們公路局陳文瑞局長還有運輸研究所林紀國所長"},{"start":2031.648,"end":2058.529,"text":"鐵道局楊振軍局長高速公路局趙新華局長航港局葉協榮局長還有民用航空局何淑平局長國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司杜威董事長還有台灣港務股份有限公司李行義董事長還有中華郵政股份有限公司王國才董事長"},{"start":2065.795,"end":2086.826,"text":"臺灣高速鐵路股份有限公司江耀宗董事長陽明海運股份有限公司蔡豐銘董事長中華電信股份有限公司簡志成董事長中華航空股份有限公司謝士謙董事長內政部警政署航空警察局邱文亮局長"},{"start":2091.837,"end":2117.93,"text":"臺中市公共運輸及捷運工程處主任秘書黃國書臺原市捷運工程處呂蔣慧處長高雄市政府捷運工程局副局長王正一副局長臺原市政府捷運工程局廖振遠副局長新北市政府捷運工程局王逸祥副局長臺北市政府捷運工程局陳郭正副局長以上介紹"},{"start":2121.92,"end":2125.467,"text":"好那本次會議邀請交通部部長陳世凱部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢那我們現在請交通部陳部長進行業務報告"},{"start":2146.918,"end":2162.114,"text":"主席各位委員先進今天應邀列席貴委員會就交通部主管的重要業務提出報告並備質詢請各位委員指教僅表示感謝之意"},{"start":2163.766,"end":2191.915,"text":"為了實現國家希望工程為施政願景交通部建構人本交通便捷臺灣發展觀光綠色運輸之策略並在AI行動內閣的推動政策下持續強化智慧交通氣象郵政等等的服務以科技結合人本在有效率要安全要創新的前提下其與成為全民交通的後盾"},{"start":2193.203,"end":2208.685,"text":"有關本部近期各項的施政重要點．以編列印成書面．報告送櫃會．敬請各位委員指教．以下僅就落實運輸安全與人本價值．"},{"start":2209.753,"end":2209.913,"text":"報告如後"},{"start":2229.79,"end":2244.728,"text":"第一個主軸我們要落實運輸安全與人本價值為了保障用路人的需求與安全本部致力於推動保護行人安全、鐵道行車安全以及提升偏鄉公共運輸等等的課題並積極執行"},{"start":2247.455,"end":2268.911,"text":"第一點我們在改善路面工程環境的面向有799處的義照式路口截至9月底已經完成了435處預計在今年底全數完成校園周邊的路口改善截至今年的9月底已經完成了48校預計在今年底要完成200校的計畫"},{"start":2271.631,"end":2296.884,"text":"針對省道路口的安全也就是本部所轄管的省道截至9月底之前已經完成了899處的路口改善我們希望在年底能夠完成2000處的路口改善至於最近民眾在道路通行的過程當中有發現全國行人穿越道的退縮到9月底已經完成了2022處"},{"start":2300.407,"end":2315.177,"text":"接下來落實推動各項道安改善的工作我們在減少死亡人數的部分1到6月30日死亡人數較過去同期減少了9%也就是141人推動安全駕駛的升級"},{"start":2316.818,"end":2334.204,"text":"為了降低年輕族群的事故情況我們鼓勵騎機車的民眾能夠透過完善的訓練之後再取得駕照並且建立駕駛人取得駕照上路的防禦駕駛以及安全駕駛的觀念到9月底我們總共有38,013人參加訓練"},{"start":2339.073,"end":2344.096,"text":"我們也補助了機車的這個道路安駕的訓練鼓勵民眾由駕訓班的教練來帶領實際上路來學習到9月份我們總共有5000人參加這個訓練參加駕訓以及道安這個駕訓"},{"start":2355.484,"end":2374.84,"text":"的這個考照者、摩托車的考照者我們的違規的風險率降低了64%事故的風險率降低了51%所以在民國114年也就是明年我們會持續來推動並且加大補助的力道希望讓更多的人能夠參與這個駕訓機車的考照的駕訓"},{"start":2381.84,"end":2401.473,"text":"接下來針對確保鐵道行車安全提升軌道系統的運能我們要提升台鐵的營運安全訂定了台鐵公司5年的行車事故目標值從113年起要逐步的降低我們期望到了117年可以讓事故率降低50%"},{"start":2403.194,"end":2409.8,"text":"我們還要強化臺鐵的旅運服務我們希望準點率在短期之內能夠達到97%以上中期達到97.5%長期我們希望能夠達到99%"},{"start":2417.403,"end":2427.231,"text":"另外針對高鐵的運能我們從7月起今年的7月起調整班表時刻表每週增加43班即開行1103班運能提升了4%較疫情之前提升了8.6%"},{"start":2436.448,"end":2451.562,"text":"接下來針對很多委員大家都很關心的改善偏鄉公共運輸擴大幸福巴士的服務區域為了完善偏鄉地區的基本民行的需求截至9月底已經新增了32條的幸福巴士路線"},{"start":2452.583,"end":2457.125,"text":"共計輔助推動172個鄉鎮共443條的路線全國偏鄉地區公共運輸的涵蓋率達到了94.37%我們將持續的依地方的特性來輔導以其達成在117年底368個鄉鎮鄉鄉有公車那這個部分當然包含了新福巴士這是我們的目標"},{"start":2478.598,"end":2492.956,"text":"那福島幸福巴是固定營運的模式還有轉型成彈性的這個預約的模式並且推動偏鄉客運供載的服務截至9月份已經新增福島了共21條固定路線轉型成彈性預約的服務"},{"start":2496.3,"end":2508.463,"text":"那其中有28條路線已經轉型並且已經在花蓮的濁西鄉臺中的和平區還有新竹的尖石鄉等三個地方推動了客貨供載的服務那接下來的主軸"},{"start":2515.39,"end":2533.187,"text":"我們要引領運輸的科技與創新為了因應疫情的衝擊科技快速的變革全球各個產業都面臨到壓力跟挑戰交通運輸維繫著民生以及工商業界的運轉是重要的國家的基礎在面對"},{"start":2536.638,"end":2559.399,"text":"國際競爭運輸系統導入的新科技是未來勢在必行的工作我們重要的工作重點有我們要推動智慧機場的建置跟服務的提升桃園的第三航廈預計在114年中要啟用北登機廊廳114年底我們要啟用第三航廈的航廈主體以及南登機廊廳"},{"start":2561.108,"end":2589.034,"text":"預計增加4500萬人次的旅客量的容量並希望以科技結合人本提供旅客最優質的服務我們還要提升區域的門戶以及離島機場的服務品質臺中與高雄機場滑行道的工程已經將會在114年的4月以及115年的12月來完成改善並且完成離島的機場改造提升整體門戶的意向"},{"start":2592.984,"end":2602.064,"text":"接下來我們要建制更新的飛航服務系統113年完成新一代的航空情報服務系統建制、汰換與更新"},{"start":2603.302,"end":2628.719,"text":"航空氣象現代化作業系統提升危害天氣預報的精準度我們還要提升資通訊科技應用的服務桃園機場在113年的8月完成了43台自動查驗通關系統升級與設備的更新加速通關效率持續優化數位資訊整合平台提升出境通關人流的預測以及飛機延遲時間的預測"},{"start":2631.84,"end":2643.745,"text":"模式精準度都要提升那我們還要升級機場的智慧物流服務系統桃園航空自由港區113年底取得國際航空運輸協會醫藥品冷鏈運輸國際認證有助於打造綠色物流通道促進生技醫療產業的發展"},{"start":2655.762,"end":2679.315,"text":"那另外針對港口的部分我們也要持續的來推動智慧港口的建設我們在113年也就是今年的10月份我們全面的來啟用高雄港第7貨櫃中心可以同時停靠4艘2.4萬2大型的貨櫃輪透過新建制的遠端遙控裝卸機具設備以及智慧化的"},{"start":2680.906,"end":2684.757,"text":"場櫃作業系統每年可以處理最高可以達到650萬2的貨運量"},{"start":2688.328,"end":2716.516,"text":"並且我們要提升智慧航安的服務在今年底我們將會完成彰化風場航道傳播交通服務中心的大樓並且在116年新增4座雷達站涵蓋西側海域的航行空間監測海域範圍並且由目前監測的673萬平方公里擴大幅度到4000平方公里強化海域的這個航行安全"},{"start":2720.066,"end":2720.927,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2739.073,"end":2762.248,"text":"各自鐵道的雲平台以及數位基礎建設推動智慧鐵道運輸環境提升行車安全以及營運的效能另外針對未來無人機的交通領域的發展我們希望能夠推動無人機在交通領域能夠有創新的應用辦理無人機偏鄉的物流"},{"start":2764.938,"end":2777.465,"text":"運送服務的驗證計畫並且在嘉義花蓮澎湖等地進行實驗的驗證113年到114年我們會循序來推動服務驗證以及商業驗證的計畫我們要推動無人機的橋樑檢測結合無人機自動化的飛行利用AI影像辨識橋樑的這個結構的劣化的情況增進橋樑的品質以及效率"},{"start":2796.004,"end":2818.113,"text":"我們第三個主軸是希望能夠打造便捷而且有韌性的交通網絡交通部的使命是為民眾打造便捷台灣優質交通的環境面對極端氣候的挑戰強化運輸系統的韌性更顯得重要在公路的面向短期的目標我們希望能夠做到國三"},{"start":2819.313,"end":2845.231,"text":"銜接臺66線的系統的這個交流道的通車那在前幾天我們也已經通車了並且我們會辦理國道1號、國道3號交流道拓寬的改善計畫國一甲線的基本設計也要審議完成國二甲線的延伸計畫的核定我們也希望在短期之內能夠完成那我們的中期目標是希望能夠讓淡江大橋能夠趕快通車啟動國道7號"},{"start":2848.129,"end":2858.708,"text":"還有國道1號的羊頭段的拓寬蘇花安以及國道5號銜接蘇花改還有國道1號甲縣等等的中期目標我們要希望趕快來實現"},{"start":2861.525,"end":2877.836,"text":"長期的目標我們希望西濱快速道路的曾文溪橋的路段能夠完工國道1的交流道還有台九線安全景觀大道的改善工程接下來還有國一國道1號台南路段的工程能夠完工"},{"start":2880.748,"end":2898.326,"text":"在鐵路的面向我們重要的工作的要點短期目標我們希望能夠啟用鳳鳴的臨時站發揮桃園站與英哥站通勤之分流功能完成高雄站的商辦以及旅館大樓等等連接東西向兩側的綠園道"},{"start":2900.865,"end":2928.977,"text":"中期的目標我們希望能夠完成桃園平鎮的臨時站發揮中立站的通勤運輸的分流的功能臺南市區的這個鐵路地下化的第一個階段通車將會改善到臺南市區的都市的組閣長期的目標我們希望能夠推動彰化的高架化彰化鐵路的高架化以及大台中山海線的高架立體化還有就是"},{"start":2930.527,"end":2951.561,"text":"臺南延伸永康等等的計畫,我們希望能夠得到行政院的核定,能夠消除都市的阻隔,均衡區域的發展。針對都市捷運面向的工作要點,短期目標,我們希望能夠推動山陰線延伸到八德的綜合規劃,"},{"start":2952.895,"end":2974.503,"text":"以及臺南捷運的第一期藍線綜合規劃的作業還有高雄捷運到岡山站已經在113年的6月30日通車中期計畫我們希望能夠完成新義縣的東延以及新北捷運三陰縣的通車提升大臺北地區捷運的便利性並且持續推動捷運西東縣環狀縣東環段"},{"start":2980.1,"end":2996.485,"text":"以及基隆捷運桃園捷運中線綠線的延伸中壢台中的捷運藍線台南捷運第一期藍線等等的捷運路線長期的目標我們希望能夠推動萬大綜合樹林線的第一期桃園機場聯外機場"},{"start":2998.985,"end":2999.065,"text":"接下來針對"},{"start":3015.301,"end":3030.929,"text":"運輸系統韌性的部分在鐵道的這個編撥的裝置編撥監測的這個裝置上面我們要全面盤點台鐵跟公路臨近有異物容易侵入的處所總共有64處其中26處的編撥設置落實的告警系統已經在112年間全部都已經上線在監視"},{"start":3039.013,"end":3057.828,"text":"那另外針對營運的路線上面選擇臨近鐵路存在車輛容易入侵而且沒有適當阻隔的路段總共有38處我們來辦理車輛入侵阻隔的設施以及告警系統的建置計畫預計在113年12月底完成設置28處114年6月全數來完成"},{"start":3063.872,"end":3069.074,"text":"並且我們要檢討工程設計的規範增訂鐵路邊坡維護與管理規範草案預計在113年底完成審定落實執行路權內邊坡單元的維護管理分級並且就路權外邊坡納入優先關注以及觀察的範圍"},{"start":3089.878,"end":3117.494,"text":"接下來我們針對花東的輸運計畫為了因應地震、颱風、極端氣候以及短時強降雨的影響我們希望能夠及時的提供鐵公路中斷之後的備運計畫監禁花東的輸運在陸運的部分原本鐵公路阻斷我們72小時之後才會啟動海空運的備援方案我們現在提升為3小時之內予以啟動對於空運的部分在第一時間我們就會盤點"},{"start":3119.265,"end":3139.698,"text":"運輸的量能以及地勤人員的人力依災情以及鐵公路可能中斷的時間以及旅客的需求我們來協調航空公司加開班機以利民眾緊急的輸運需求針對海運的部分我們規劃要促成蘇花海運常態性的固定航線相關的做法"},{"start":3140.755,"end":3148.57,"text":"並且研議鐵公路中斷時期建立海運的輸運的開口合約讓我們未來在3個小時之內就能夠啟動整個輸運的計畫"},{"start":3152.847,"end":3173.57,"text":"接下來第4個主軸我們針對推動觀光產業的永續發展推動觀光品牌國際化與景區的數位化轉型打造多元旅遊的體驗透過發展綠色旅行綠色旅遊區觀光品牌以及深度旅遊致力吸引旅客吸引"},{"start":3174.571,"end":3198.58,"text":"促進觀光業的這個永續發展短期的目標我們希望能夠強化臺灣的觀光品牌3.0並且啟動日韓以及穆斯林的市場的代言人例如我們前一陣子邀請了日本的影星這個戚夫沐聰等等的方式在不同的市場不同的這個深度來做不一樣的行銷並且在知名的地標例如說紐約的時報廣場"},{"start":3200.981,"end":3201.001,"text":"．則發言"},{"start":3223.391,"end":3226.394,"text":"中長期計劃持續爭取過境旅客入境推動來源國多元簽證減變措施並持續開拓多元市場並精準行銷"},{"start":3250.834,"end":3279.876,"text":"我們還要建構世界級的觀光景點推動區域觀光品牌短期的目標我們希望在12月底之前完成12件的魅力景點的創新風貌例如萬金自行車道提升國際旅遊的吸引力我們會攜手地方政府共同完成16件的亮點工程推出台灣觀光100亮點鼓勵走訪各個地方的亮點落實花東振興方案並且我們推出了"},{"start":3282.048,"end":3310.166,"text":"住宿的補助以及旅運的優惠就花東地區也推出了一來再來的加碼方案中長期計畫我們希望能夠結合18個觀光圈執行成果並且重新打造7個區域的這個觀光品牌營造六處的重要的廊帶亮點擴大區域的合作結合與業界跟部會串聯鐵道、步道、鐵馬道的旅遊環境"},{"start":3314.093,"end":3335.147,"text":"接下來我們要促進綠色旅遊的發展推廣永續旅遊以持續多元的方式我們要輔導我們的業者得到永續的認證同時積極跟環境部合作來推行綠色的旅宿並且逐步輔導各個管理處的轄內的業者取得綠色的旅行標章借過國際的綠色產業鏈長期優化臺灣好行以及臺灣關巴"},{"start":3340.41,"end":3350.744,"text":"推動路線檢探環保以及永續化除了永續之外我們還要推動智慧景區以及數位觀光景點"},{"start":3353.001,"end":3376.97,"text":"我們要成立智慧景區的數位轉型辦公室數位轉型的專案辦公室推動6處示範的智慧景區透過數位轉型以及推動景區的智慧化提升景區在管理服務以及行銷的效能我們預計在116年統一13個智慧景區的綜合管理平台並且結合AI"},{"start":3378.05,"end":3389.458,"text":"擴增實境的技術以及區塊鏈的技術以及智慧管理提升旅遊安全的管理113年12月我們也辦理了觀光產業數位轉型博覽會輔導觀光業投入數位化的服務接下來第5個主軸我們是針對郵政與氣象的服務的精進"},{"start":3402.691,"end":3427.319,"text":"為了要提升並且讓全民信賴的這個郵政服務作為我們的願景我們引進數位科技推動郵政物流園區智慧自動化系統另外致力於提升氣象觀測以及預報的這個技術透過先進的氣象系統來強化防災的能力為民眾提升更有效率更精準的這個氣象服務針對智慧"},{"start":3431.074,"end":3439.379,"text":"郵政的物流以及自動化的部分我們推動郵政物流園區的自動化管理系統113年我們將完成自動倉儲設備驗收的啟用未來可以在園區當中集中處理全國70%以上的郵件分檢封運在園區我們將導入高效率的倉儲管理"},{"start":3457.31,"end":3483.262,"text":"貨物並且加工的這個作業系統提升電商物流的處理效率並且藉由地理環境優勢結合桃園國際機場以及臺北港的物流發展與跨境的物流以發揮最大的海空運的物流的縱效針對提升氣象服務跟觀測的技術的部分我們要強化預警系統以及氣象預報的準確度"},{"start":3486.377,"end":3505.813,"text":"我們要持續建置更先進的設備發展AI的氣象應用預計每年可以提升颱風路徑的預報能力達到2%我們要申辦數值天氣預報高速運算電腦的建置計畫以全球的模式天氣預報的精準度來提升到6%"},{"start":3507.908,"end":3523.866,"text":"區域模式的颱風路徑一百二十四個小時以內的預報能夠精準度提升到百分之十二作為目標一百一十三年七月的凱米颱風以及十月的山陀颱風作為案例新型的AI天氣"},{"start":3525.731,"end":3554.93,"text":"天氣降尺度的這個技術提供可以提供更加的颱風以及地形的交互作用有助於預報的預判114年我們將會完成雲林以及宜蘭的降雨雷達安置的裝置116年到118年我們會分別完成金馬以及馬祖的觀霧以及觀雨雷達的建置增進雷達監測的覆蓋率提升好雨以及"},{"start":3556.653,"end":3556.973,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3578.423,"end":3599.634,"text":"與縣市政府視訊連線會議山陀爾颱風期間我們也使用了這個方式來提供給各縣市政府來進行停班停課的決策的參考113年完成高雄市都會區的客製化地震預警系統預計在114年完成臺中市客製化的地震預報的預警系統"},{"start":3601.738,"end":3627.767,"text":"地震的預警時效由10秒縮短至7秒地震預報的盲區由35公里縮短到25公里第6個主軸也就是最後一個主軸我們要推動近鄰碳排邁向環境的永續交通部在運輸的近鄰轉型的政策之下主要推動近鄰碳排關鍵的戰略7第7項"},{"start":3631.261,"end":3646.892,"text":"運具電動化以及無碳化關鍵戰略10淨零綠生活建構低碳的運輸網路運具的電動化以及無碳化我們到113年的8月底為止電動化電動大客車總計有4014輛普及率達到38%已經達成我們113年原本預定要達成的25%的目標"},{"start":3659.781,"end":3672.323,"text":"我們將推動119年的市區公車的全面電動化並且朝向129年推動小客車以及電動機車新車的市售比率達到百分之百的目標"},{"start":3674.858,"end":3700.573,"text":"我們將持續完備電動車使用的環境已經在交通的運輸節點公共停車場以及國道的運輸網絡建置了公共的充電樁在今年的8月底之前已經建置完成充電樁9481槍整體的充電樁的比例以及快充的比例都符合了歐盟的建議的標準甚至有些超越"},{"start":3704.841,"end":3717.252,"text":"我們還要建構低碳的運輸網路鐵路跟公路的運輸量我們在113年的上半年已經達到了10.89億人次預計在今年底將會達到21.91億人次114年跟115年我們希望能夠分別達到24.7億人次以及25.69億人次"},{"start":3727.341,"end":3745.378,"text":"我們要補助地方政府的公共運輸高鐵的票價優惠以及改善台鐵的票務系統等等的措施並且推出TPAS提供民眾搭乘公共運輸我們平均以3到5折的優惠那我們統計112年7月到113年的6月全國公共的運輸量累計已經成長了11.83%"},{"start":3754.568,"end":3762.783,"text":"我們還要推動海空運的檢探臺灣的海港群已經全數獲得了歐洲的生態港的認證"},{"start":3764.301,"end":3783.071,"text":"並且我們要執行的是機場的減碳措施各個機場持續推動節能減碳以及再生能源的措施包括113年完成橋汽橋電太陽能光電設備更新的設置減少二氧化碳排放達到了4673公噸未來桃園以及高雄機場均已達到國際機場協會的這個碳認證"},{"start":3794.5,"end":3814.242,"text":"的等級要達到4級的作為目標,辦理各項的減碳措施。我們還要推動永續的航空燃油使用,預計114年的上半年將在桃園機場以及松山機場由台灣中油公司為國籍航空首次添加永續的航空燃料。"},{"start":3815.143,"end":3843.651,"text":"我們還要推動工程的檢探公務局、高工局、鐵道局分別就公路工程、國道工程、軌道工程研議訂定檢探的指引並且在114年底完成指引的目標最後交通部透過人本交通便捷臺灣發展觀光綠色運輸的策略有效的提升交通建設以及服務品質"},{"start":3845.169,"end":3873.064,"text":"並且增強臺灣作為旅遊目的地的吸引力促進經濟的發展未來我們將會善用科技以及人本的關懷除了達成AI行動內閣想推動的政策之外並且實現國家希望工程的願景提供優質便於民行的服務創造更美好的交通生活以上是交通部重要的業務報告請各位委員指教支持謝謝大家"},{"start":3874.974,"end":3875.034,"text":"謝謝陳部長的報告"},{"start":3881.491,"end":3901.664,"text":"現在進行尋答先宣告一下事項尋答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘上午尋答預計至12點15分指下午2點繼續開會"},{"start":3908.849,"end":3935.396,"text":"現在請登記第一位李坤澤委員發言謝謝陳書越召委請一下陳世凱部長杜威董事長江耀宗董事長還有陳文睿局長林福山司長也上來一下杜威董事長還有陳文睿司長還有那個江董事長"},{"start":3938.393,"end":3947.409,"text":"部長您好現在因為電力的調漲那台鐵跟高鐵對於票價的調漲已經有一定的討論那"},{"start":3949.69,"end":3975.243,"text":"我在過去針對票價的調漲就一個重要的原則我們要向人民多收一塊錢都要以最嚴肅的態度說明清楚以及要達到預期的目標這是重要的原則那台鐵跟高鐵有跟你報告有關票價調漲的問題嗎在目前有跟你說明報告嗎"},{"start":3976.374,"end":3977.075,"text":"那台鐵的部分大家"},{"start":3992.495,"end":4013.594,"text":"社會已經有共識了就認為臺鐵的票價29年沒有調整那的確是已經進入有討論的空間這個部分社會基本上是能接受有討論的空間那高鐵的部分社會又有不一樣的看法那我先請教一下臺鐵杜薇董事長"},{"start":4014.994,"end":4032.165,"text":"那我們現在明年的電價成本預計要增加4.56億那之前我看新聞或是相關的資料你們說大概要增加2.28億這個差距是怎樣?為什麼?"},{"start":4033.65,"end":4047.928,"text":"跟委員報告這個預估有包含我們台鐵要在明年度以及現在的努力就是有兩個方向一個就是我們要努力的去節電度數把它減少"},{"start":4048.829,"end":4073.525,"text":"杜董事長我在問你的是你們跟媒體講說明年的票價明年的這個電力的漲幅會增加台鐵的支出增加2.28億然後後來發覺自己搞錯了應該是增加到4.56億為什麼呢因為啊你們自己就搞混了這個電力的調漲啊他有14%還有7%還有動漲那"},{"start":4078.396,"end":4085.579,"text":"你們記者在問你相關的這個電費的調整你們應該是屬於491這個代碼就是它是鐵路運輸業然後你們跟記者講的是路上運輸業是499的代碼499的代碼這個是7%"},{"start":4101.107,"end":4123.79,"text":"但是鐵路運輸業是沒有這個7%的這個優惠啊你們自己就搞錯啦記者跟你們阿你們自己說這是7%的這個電費其實是14%啊杜董事長我對你們啊真的是你是個很認真的董事長沒有錯但是啊"},{"start":4126.309,"end":4148.027,"text":"這種臺鐵內部的安全文化跟問題意識啊真的是讓社會大眾啊真的很失望會少一個車廂然後問你電價自己7%或14%也搞不清楚這個真的真的是要檢討那你們預計會開董事會來討論票價的調整方案"},{"start":4149.026,"end":4176.717,"text":"我們現在票價的調整方案我們還在做研議做一些調整我們做好以後會提報董事會部長我對台鐵票價的調整我認為就是有討論的空間了但是你們對於安全對於準點對於電力效能的一個提升相關的這些必須要跟社會大眾講我們要做到什麼目標"},{"start":4178.135,"end":4193.425,"text":"報告委員這個部分齁在台鐵跟我討論這個票價的時候我第一個要求也是這個樣子要讓社會要讓民眾感覺到服務的提升安全的提升那針對這次的電的問題也是一樣我的要求是不應該把電的漲價"},{"start":4195.026,"end":4217.275,"text":"直接反映成直式的反應就是票價要調整並不是這個樣子我們要先做節電而他們的節電其實是有效率的在113年也獲得了能源局的補助臺電的補助4500多萬的補助我們也節電了1.5%左右在明年我也特別拜託經濟部的能源署要特別專案輔導臺市這個做得不好的我們來改善"},{"start":4219.082,"end":4233.652,"text":"指責跟督促但是對於電力的效能的提升啊臺鐵是有在做是你們現在也要更新相關的電測線以及光纖的這些系統設備啊也要做提升那這個對於相關的"},{"start":4234.732,"end":4263.042,"text":"電力的提升是可以我認為是大概可以省下大概153萬度的這個電力這個有在做啦這個相關電力跟成本等一下我們再來討論那高鐵來董事長來你們的想法是怎樣因為電價調漲我們明年大概會增加電費3億6千萬那當然高鐵的一直在"},{"start":4265.963,"end":4271.912,"text":"對一些高耗能的設備一直在排放然後我們在實施駕駛的節能駕駛"},{"start":4274.611,"end":4274.831,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4295.592,"end":4315.44,"text":"針對特許連線從35年延長到70年然後政府在相關的關股以及放關股給予挹注支持讓高鐵能夠繼續的永續經營所以當初是有調整票價但是後來就又撤回"},{"start":4317.281,"end":4343.109,"text":"這麼多年來我對高鐵的票價我一直堅持一個原則十幾年來都是這樣高鐵的問題是運量不是票價所以這麼多年來我們要求高鐵要設立自由做相關的優惠措施這個也成為高鐵在營運的一個重要的比例那這個部分"},{"start":4345.885,"end":4368.995,"text":"我們高鐵現在在討論到票價的調整那我覺得啊人台鐵是艱苦人家在那說要調整票價社會認為有討論的空間那你高鐵看人吃米粉你也在那化修也要說一下存在感說我們也要調整相關的票價我們目前還沒有提出最好是這樣"},{"start":4371.465,"end":4398.578,"text":"部長我認為在明年的農曆春節之前相關的高鐵跟台鐵尤其是高鐵這個票價讓社會來討論你們也必須在明年的農曆春節之前必須要提出具體的我們針對台鐵的安全性針對台鐵的準點服務的效率相關電力的一個提升我們有什麼具體的做法"},{"start":4400.419,"end":4423.194,"text":"要跟人民多說一塊錢都是很嚴肅的事情對,我們會清楚做好說明好,那我們剛才討論到相關的電費的問題啊我們電費啊,我們來看依照台鐵公司的預算書還有高鐵的年度財務的這樣一個報告書台鐵電費的總支出是29億那佔營業支出是6.6高鐵的電費總支出是24億它佔營業支出是8.7"},{"start":4430.407,"end":4446.602,"text":"那現在電費要調整那高鐵台鐵預估要增加4.56億就是支出會再增加1%那高鐵會增加3.2億到3.6億這是預估支出會再增加1.15%但是"},{"start":4449.943,"end":4470.828,"text":"部長,台鐵跟高鐵的營業收入不一樣,台鐵的今年上半度營收是157億,那對比去年增加了大概10億高鐵蠻強的,今年上半營收就265億,對比去年增加了20億"},{"start":4472.568,"end":4473.228,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4490.612,"end":4490.732,"text":"主席"},{"start":4510.831,"end":4517.075,"text":"高鐵的營收是跟運量有關當然營收是有成長營運成本也是成長現況是這樣"},{"start":4541.471,"end":4562.144,"text":"那新北市大概是28%那新北市以南都是個位數我們要提升這種大眾運輸的市佔率台北37%你以為很高嗎你知道東京香港新加坡八成以上"},{"start":4564.203,"end":4592.421,"text":"韓城的首爾韓國的首爾也有56%以上我們的大眾運輸我們要鼓勵民眾去使用大眾運輸然後票價調整是很嚴肅的事情你票價調整那民眾就說那麼貴那我就不要使用大眾運輸了大眾運輸要鼓勵大家去使用這個我們特別注意這個要特別注意我們對於列車準點安全改善服務品質能源效率的短中長期目標"},{"start":4593.662,"end":4614.584,"text":"都要落實而且提出改善的目標你才有調整票價的依據了所以部長在明年春節以前臺鐵的票價不會去做變動嗎春節之前不會高鐵都不會嘛高鐵我目前還沒有看到報告高鐵還沒有提案還沒有提案那就想提案"},{"start":4617.574,"end":4635.453,"text":"我們希望高鐵還是要負起公共運輸的責任因為政府幫高鐵非常大的忙特許年限35年延到70年這是2015年還有相關的採改關股放關股的挹注這個社會責任高鐵其實"},{"start":4638.479,"end":4638.999,"text":"李坤澤委員林珮祥委員"},{"start":4671.464,"end":4678.622,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長還有航港局的還有航港局的局長跟民航局的局長"},{"start":4691.237,"end":4700.364,"text":"委員長,針對最近中國大陸的軍演,把整個台灣的航道全部封鎖,不管是空運還是海運,他們現在所有的航道全部封鎖。"},{"start":4711.372,"end":4711.752,"text":"包括委員"},{"start":4728.599,"end":4743.649,"text":"這一次他們的軍演他們是有這樣的計畫跟說法但實際上對於我們實際的這個民航的航班跟我們的船舶的運輸完全沒有受到任何的影響所以那天我也特別發了一個新聞稿跟社會大眾說目前是沒有受到任何的影響"},{"start":4744.309,"end":4769.369,"text":"那他們在演習的過程當中如果民航會受到影響他們也會事先先告知那這一次他也確實是沒有特別告知這件事情那我們跟這個配合國安單位以及這個海巡單位我們在海岸上面看到的其實也真的對我們的這個航運是沒有任何的影響不過委員你這個提醒是很重要的如果事情真的發生的時候交通部我們所屬的包含民航"},{"start":4769.949,"end":4774.354,"text":"所以說這次演習之前其實兩邊其實某個程度有一定程度的默契不要影響到民生不要影響到貨運的進出對吧"},{"start":4790.363,"end":4805.155,"text":"這個有沒有默契我不曉得但是以結論來看以結論來看確實是沒有影響到他們的演習的過程對我們的所有的航班都正常的起降那我們所有的航道上面的船舶也都正常的進出這個部分是沒有問題不過在這中間演習的時候現在房間都在傳有關有一個LNG船"},{"start":4812.361,"end":4816.363,"text":"LNG船的部分我之前有看到媒體在報導這件事情但實際上有嗎?"},{"start":4831.854,"end":4855.71,"text":"LNG船應該因為後來中友有跑出來講說這個LNG船提早到了那我的我要問的最主要目的是因為說假設真的有任何的疏失那不要講疏失有任何的意外那LNG船來到我們的港口現在目前只有台中港那目前可是其他港口的話如果這個LNG來的目的是為了電力的供給"},{"start":4857.393,"end":4880.254,"text":"這部分是對我們國安市有相當大的問題所以我這邊想請教部長您對這件事情的看法如何這件事情我們後來查證或許是沒有這件事應該是媒體有媒體的報導但媒體的報導它並不具真實性所以實際上並沒有這件事情那當然如果是真的影響到這個東西當然對於台灣的能源是會受到非常大的影響"},{"start":4880.994,"end":4908.272,"text":"那目前這次的演習我們看起來我剛剛也跟委員報告過我們所有的這個船舶的航班都沒有問題進出也都順利所以這個訊息或許是媒體的誤報是跟委員再補充報告一下一般LNG船的話大概10天或7天他會來台中港那他進台中港的時候他會看那個海象那這一次的話我們是這個演習的區域沒有收到"},{"start":4908.832,"end":4933.727,"text":"因為他那個那個坐標一般如果有的話他會很清楚航港局他會跟我們講我們會跟相關的所有航商請他們繞道為什麼我特地注重這個事情因為不管是海港也好空港也好等於是一個國家的肝臟要是出事情就是大事沒事就是好事出事就是大事所以我特地把這個航道這件事情拿出來這邊做討論希望未來部長"},{"start":4936.93,"end":4953.485,"text":"很尷尬上次我也問過李孟彥部長這個問題不過我特地每次都會如果有這方面的事情我都會特地關注航道的問題因為這是我們國家最重要的事情不管經濟也好各方面也好好再來一個議題就是說我最近看到也是看到媒體上面講說我們好像針對這個運輸業管理規則跟客貨運價準則也要做修正是嗎"},{"start":4960.226,"end":4988.747,"text":"委員您所提的應該是針對這個外送平台我們有做這方面的我先把這個定調其實我對這個事是肯定的這個不是壞事這是好事但是尷尬的是說這樣講你確認一個你去設定一個明確的計算公式然後把這個最低的薪資把這外送員最低薪資把它扣下來把它確定住這不是壞事外送員有很多很多有很多很多的困難"},{"start":4989.247,"end":5015.838,"text":"也遇到很多很多的問題需要公部門去幫他們解決那這是第一步這絕對是好事但是我也必須從這個比較務實的角度來看羊貓出賽羊身上我們把這個計算公式出去之後把這個業者成本提高通常就會轉嫁在消費者身上我必須把這句話講清楚像是說目前來講我們知道平台他們有對於這個對於消費者收所謂的服務費"},{"start":5016.778,"end":5030.976,"text":"但是我為什麼聽到所謂的樓層費這玩意?有聽過樓層費嗎?報告委員目前的修訂是這個樣子啦交通部其實不會管到這個外送員他們的薪資的部分"},{"start":5031.917,"end":5050.738,"text":"交通部能夠管的是運費的部分那我們運費的處理是這樣子我們運費的處理是叫做透明化啦我們在處理的過程其實叫透明化讓消費者也好或者是外送員也好或者是平台也好大家把運費能夠透明讓大家知道知道透明的運費是多少再來針對樓層費或者是說等待費用"},{"start":5053.721,"end":5080.275,"text":"這些是得就是可以可以用這個來作為計費的可能性但到時候平台要不要用那是平台自己決定再來最後一點是我們針對這個定價的部分是讓消費者然後外送的這個外送員以及公司然後地方政府當然也加我們的公路局我們五方共同來討論來協定所以各方會有平衡的意見在裡面"},{"start":5082.096,"end":5082.516,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5100.268,"end":5101.309,"text":"區域的不平衡有兩方面一方面是都市跟鄉村"},{"start":5115.816,"end":5139.754,"text":"因為現在都市跟鄉村的話都市基本上使用率比較高鄉村使用率比較低變成說比較多的外送員會願意到都市去反而鄉村需要送的時候沒有人這是一個區域上的問題第二個問題是在於說假設基隆跟台北如果說計算公式出來基隆比較低台北比較高覺得說外送人員全部都跑到台北去基隆反而外送人員少"},{"start":5140.394,"end":5167.857,"text":"會不會造成所謂的不平衡這點我是希望說要交通部要注意報告委員這個部分其實定價的部分到時候是各縣市自己定我剛才在講的五方平台包含消費者包含外送員包含這個外送公司平台包含縣市政府包含公路局然後每個縣市由每個縣市的狀況自己下去定那這個部分其實也有它商業機制存在其實我會覺得我會建議部長說針對這個案子這是個好的修法"},{"start":5168.517,"end":5179.288,"text":"這是我必須講這是好的修法去保障這些外送人員權益這是好的修法但是可是我沒有跟大眾好好討論過我會覺得是說難的話在這邊在交通部那邊做個專題報告然後針對這個案子我們來好好"},{"start":5185.833,"end":5209.538,"text":"這個建議很好我也覺得這件事要大家好好討論現在是預告期啦緩一下因為這個是很重要的法聽起來很小可是因為我們現在是雙薪家庭多會話事情越來越多而且老實講現在大家都成本的時候這個法人越來越省越來越大越來越方便但是如果說保障他們的話那這個案子就應該所有相關人士全部進來大家來坐下來討論然後緩一點事緩則遠"},{"start":5212.099,"end":5212.579,"text":"謝謝林培祥委員"},{"start":5241.109,"end":5267.024,"text":"接下來邀請林國成委員好主席請陳部長請陳部長還有我們林司長黃司長請來扶臂一下吧林司長黃司長也上來黃司長也上來"},{"start":5277.982,"end":5294.117,"text":"部長早委員早我特別還要請教一下因為今天我們書面報告跟你口頭報告口頭報告的資料部長是你有看過沒有口頭報告我剛剛報的有啊是"},{"start":5296.223,"end":5323.343,"text":"這個是你自己看過要這樣報告：或者幕僚給你的報告我們當然是跟我們的幕僚大家討論出來的結果那你是有看過有看過那代表我們交通部的業務報告基本上是進步的因為我非常重視如果把去年的一字不落就送到這裡來"},{"start":5324.983,"end":5351.469,"text":"我是專門在推報告的委員但是我看過我也覺得你這個內容是跟你要做跟事實是蠻接近的所以在這裡當然因為第一步要對你口頭報告這些把它連結起來這個要加以肯定那我們一再強調我在立法院我是講究理性問政"},{"start":5352.949,"end":5375.189,"text":"對就對不對就不對我是對事不對人所以好的我們也會利用我們寶貴時間特別稱讚你們一下那另外一個部長我想我要特別跟你談一個就是說高齡事故頻傳銀華族上路很難安心這個議題"},{"start":5376.897,"end":5392.93,"text":"我要跟你談這個議題最主要是臺灣已經慢慢邁向高齡化社會我想部長當過市議員你最清楚嘛在基層裡面高齡化的問題他不是只有照顧"},{"start":5394.363,"end":5404.109,"text":"他未來在交通裡面大家可以看為什麼我請兩位司長要上來虎斃第一個就是我們一定要面對這個問題嘛面對這個問題所以我們面對問題解決問題預防問題"},{"start":5412.395,"end":5438.035,"text":"這樣未來在整個交通事故以及政策在制定的時候就不會有落差所以我今天要跟部長談的就是未來高齡化的這些第一個我想請教的因為我們在106年開始75歲以上我們的駕照問題這個部分到底實施的怎麼樣"},{"start":5439.744,"end":5454.858,"text":"下照的部分齁我們75歲以上應該現在都有在再回來再考然後他不是在考啦要不是在考 換照啦他在換照然後我們也會再檢驗他的反應的狀況跟身體的狀況這些都有做檢視"},{"start":5455.979,"end":5471.167,"text":"可是現在當然還是有人認為在這裡是比較嚴苛因為我們現在藍米之壽命確確實實都不斷在延長這也代表說我們的移民是越來越高的"},{"start":5471.707,"end":5494.651,"text":"在這個部分我還是要拜託部長要去重視這些他們的權利不要因為憐憫而喪失他對於駕駛的權利這個部分我想部長報告委員他們駕駛的權利這個我們要保障那另外就是安全的部分我們也希望讓他更安全"},{"start":5495.131,"end":5524.052,"text":"這個我同意這個我同意對對如果是勢力啊反應啊各方面他完全都還複合的話不是用年齡來衡量那當然也不是對看身體狀況這點我認為我們基本上我們是支持但是你在整個規劃的當中我還是要呼籲這些高齡駕駛的問題我們不能否認他的肇事力高"},{"start":5524.813,"end":5549.447,"text":"但是在這個部分還是要折衷一個比較通融有可能的這些方案一定要去做政策所以林市長可能這個你要特別去注意一下那另外一個就是其實我還是要建議部長在規劃整個高齡的這些交通替代方案我坦白講"},{"start":5550.848,"end":5566.184,"text":"都會刑沒有問題但是現在你也從中部上來中南部是比較嚴重為什麼比較嚴重因為他的交通設施不嚴密所以他逼的雖然我驗不夠"},{"start":5567.225,"end":5582.824,"text":"但是我非得一定要開車所以變成什麼造勢力就會高可是這個是一個問題喔你去看一看開到山路以後往山崖下墜的通通都是高齡為什麼"},{"start":5584.385,"end":5605.905,"text":"這個就是說你們在把關但是他在地方他沒有辦法我沒有交通你說在我們台北市沒問題啊我們交通那個非常方便啊對在台中市沒有問題啊可是你到梨山那邊去就不一樣啊所以在這個部分我主要提出這個問題是一"},{"start":5608.953,"end":5629.603,"text":"高齡社會來臨第二在制定交通的安全以及教導的部分這個部分也要去做所以部長這個我特別來提醒你一下所以這個部分他的交通方案替代方案我們現在在推的就是幸福巴士希望每一個鄉村都能夠有公共運輸到達讓他不一定要開車"},{"start":5630.963,"end":5651.136,"text":"現在就是在北部沒有問題都會型沒有問題尤其中南部比較偏遠地區是真的要針對這個問題去想辦法去解決所以這個我要特別拜託部長你在政策方面指導政策決定的時候要把它納入一個重點工作"},{"start":5651.556,"end":5677.103,"text":"好不好部長我當時在擔任議員的時候也時常爭取因為我的選區比較鄉下時常爭取公車要開到醫院的公車讓長者要就醫方便或者開到公所讓他們要辦公比較方便這樣子沒有啦我一向主張啊做任何政策未以籌謀啦不要頭痛醫頭啦交通的問題是要長遠規劃所以這個特別要部長你做政策性的"},{"start":5678.964,"end":5699.876,"text":"這個決策要去好好研究現在我們就開始要研究面臨一年兩年以後十年以後我們會變成怎麼樣這樣再制定法令才沒有才不會有百密一疏把大意是金週的這些政策把它撕掉所以我要免利部長對高齡友善的大眾運輸我們會來努力"},{"start":5702.558,"end":5714.828,"text":"最後我利用一點時間可能要提供微型電動二輪車散路的問題,這個也是問題耶,保證,我們說實在的,這個部分是非常嚴重,非常嚴重喔,所以"},{"start":5721.434,"end":5744.719,"text":"你說杜蕙琴這個問題也沒有因為他有一百科啊有什麼杜蕙琴都沒有問題現在比較有問題還是中南部的偏遠地區但是在這裡我有一個資料也就是我們規定在今年10月29日也是從這個部分要截止"},{"start":5745.748,"end":5768.508,"text":"管理要截止登記要截止但是這個部分那你們要考慮一下我不曉得為什麼設在11月29我不曉得但是我認為這些登記就登記怎麼會有實現兩年的時間兩年的時間各位委員報告因為儲管條例修正把這個微型電動二輪車要領牌要掛牌"},{"start":5768.928,"end":5784.985,"text":"那當時修法的時候有給兩年的這個緩衝那到今年10月30號就是說大家使用中的原來就有的部分要完成這個領牌的作業那現在公務總局各區建議所也在下鄉加強這個部分協助民眾來完成領牌的作業"},{"start":5786.026,"end":5798.311,"text":"市長 局長你們可能特別要注意一下我們在這裡從9月份的計算來 部長可能還是要了解一下北部第7只有60萬台 65萬倒是只有40%"},{"start":5805.473,"end":5828.505,"text":"有來登記的只有40%台中地區62%高雄地區47%也代表什麼越偏遠地區他越不願意去登記這些所以我也要拜託一個就是登記管理有管理就有安全就有制度你沒有管理當然沒有"},{"start":5829.285,"end":5833.409,"text":"另外一個當然可能不登記的原因就是宣導不夠為什麼宣導不夠因為我怕繳稅"},{"start":5837.816,"end":5858.733,"text":"所以這些東西繳稅是國民義務這頂多是多少所以在繳稅的部分當然牽涉到這個繳稅所以人民就很簡單多一塊錢少一塊錢他當然會計較所以在這個部分我還是要拜託宣導勝過以任何宣導勝過以任何還有最後一個當然這些電動車"},{"start":5864.358,"end":5864.638,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5881.932,"end":5883.472,"text":"接下來邀請許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":5920.835,"end":5949.796,"text":"首先謝謝樹葉、趙偉跟新存的協助主席我們現在請部長請陳部長部長好委員早現在那個特斯拉以及那個無人計程車已經上路了不知道部長知不知道"},{"start":5951.105,"end":5968.576,"text":"有聽說這個事情那台灣在那個我們沙倫那邊有自駕車系統的基地那另外以前我們高雄市呢也有事辦這個無人公車的搭乘那目前就是說"},{"start":5970.256,"end":5985.325,"text":"在世界我就看到已經有無人計程車已經開始上路那這個議題其實我也要求了很多次了就是說到底我們現在交通部在這一部分的進度那有沒有掌握"},{"start":5987.078,"end":6005.211,"text":"報告委員,這個自駕車的部分,它主要推廣或者說未來的商業發展的部分,它主要主管的是經濟部但是對於交通部來說,對於這個法規面的管理是交通部應該要做的,那這個部分我們也正在努力"},{"start":6005.891,"end":6034.598,"text":"不過對於自駕的系統雖然它的主責是在經濟部不過對我們來說公共運輸的部分的自駕是我們比較關注的所以過去呢從一百零八年民國一百零八年到現在我們總共投入了一億四千萬補助了六個地方政府包含剛剛委員所說的齁臺南齁彰化臺中新竹桃園以及新北齁我們有補助他們做這個自駕車的這個沙盒的這個驗證的服務啦齁這個部分是交通部所做的齁"},{"start":6035.518,"end":6036.298,"text":"到目前為止是這樣子。"},{"start":6058.326,"end":6075.825,"text":"4年計畫23億但實際上合定是24億那它不是針對自駕系統它是全部的智慧運輸系統當然這個有很多也很重要因為你們的報告我有看包括那個鐵路的安全的監控沒錯沒錯上一次我跟鐵路局問過他們也講說那個AI還要學習"},{"start":6079.288,"end":6099.224,"text":"對還要一段時間沒那麼快但是也不需要那麼久是啊沒錯我希望說這個時間上部長可以要求一下好我們會加速那另外就是說剛剛也提到就是說這個其實在法規面是沒錯啦是那你可以看美國跟日本跟德國他們在這一部分的法規面都已經訂出了不少了是"},{"start":6100.014,"end":6118.02,"text":"那我們的呢?我們目前自駕公車實驗的運行的安全的指引我們在今年底會完成這個部分是我們正在努力的部長我先讓你簡單的比較你看美國包括自駕車的法案然後日本就是他們都有道路運輸車輛法"},{"start":6119.881,"end":6120.021,"text":"實驗條例實驗條例"},{"start":6135.424,"end":6153.831,"text":"委託那個研究計畫目前在訂定自駕車安全指引所以我要讓部長看到的是在這個法規面還離很遠我們還是落後這個要加強我說的就是特斯拉已經無人計程車上路了那台灣或者是世界的流行"},{"start":6154.611,"end":6155.691,"text":"臺灣跟日本美國德國比較之下"},{"start":6170.876,"end":6171.916,"text":"法規完備才有辦法上路,所以這個部分我們會來加強"},{"start":6190.558,"end":6213.56,"text":"那再來就是觀光觀光人口我知道部長那個來台旅客的目標不是當時不是你訂的啦是是是那一開始是訂我們今年要1200萬那下修為1000萬到9月底觀光人次目前的統計大概有550萬"},{"start":6216.585,"end":6242.636,"text":"顯然這個目標達不到到現在今天早上我問的數據是差不多到580幾萬嘛到現在啦580幾萬當然對我們來說到年底要達成1000萬的目標是很辛苦不過坦白講前線的同仁們還在努力我作為部長我不太好直接說不能說達不到不能說達不到但確實是很辛苦對啦其實"},{"start":6243.957,"end":6244.518,"text":"我這樣跟我們部內的同仁講"},{"start":6260.157,"end":6262.017,"text":"我本來是想問你說你現在打算講說明年要幾百萬還是一千萬"},{"start":6286.303,"end":6293.404,"text":"一千萬還是一千萬還是當我們無法達標的時候下一個目標就是以沒達標的那個作為目標"},{"start":6294.386,"end":6321.162,"text":"那你不能一直下修啊不會下修就一樣是1000萬那今天大概可以達到750萬我們在努力當中我們提出一些具體的建議就是說你可以看到我們之前公共署其實也蠻認真的有做了很多的配套的希望能夠增加跟回流的方案比如說高鐵合作的方案比如說代言人的方案那還有跟航空公司促銷的方案還有抽獎"},{"start":6322.623,"end":6350.65,"text":"其實這些觀光署很認真在做我也知道那我們有做的就是先感謝跟鼓勵啦但是沒有辦法做到的是或者是有機會我們在哪裡沒有想到的我們可以再加強的我們也應該也給觀光署跟交通部一些建議比如說你看那個我們的免簽國家現在泰國跟菲律賓是免簽是事辦免簽那"},{"start":6352.523,"end":6352.883,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6370.114,"end":6398.867,"text":"中國的企業都往東南亞去發展有很多那這個部分東南亞將來其實他們從未開發國家到開發中國家這個進步的階段事實上應該他們會經濟會成長不少所以吸引這邊的觀光客我是覺得非常的重要所以呢對於印度印尼越南緬甸柬埔寨寮國等等有沒有可能我們可以事辦免簽有條件免簽"},{"start":6400.968,"end":6428.402,"text":"這個部分其實對臺灣的旅遊業絕對有幫助對我們的觀光絕對有幫助所以我們積極來跟外交部來協調這件事決定權會是在外交部但是我們積極來跟他們協調當然免簽有免簽的優點跟缺點但是你也不能因業廢死所以要做一個最完整的調配所以我是建議就是說免簽國家可以再試辦那包括行銷航線那甚至以前有觀光組提年我不知道部長知不知道"},{"start":6429.605,"end":6429.785,"text":"設定主軸"},{"start":6447.385,"end":6471.967,"text":"有主軸有多元這樣子會比較容易focus我們過去曾經辦過自行車方面的年嘛我們其實今年也有啦我們在日月潭應該是12月的時候要辦環髮環髮的自行車賽的挑戰賽在日月潭我們也會辦這樣的活動沒關係我們的意思不只是自行車啦我知道要辦一個主題年以前是每一年有一個觀光主題年"},{"start":6472.608,"end":6472.688,"text":"主席"},{"start":6491.088,"end":6520.383,"text":"所以我是建議這個觀光組提名還可以再恢復那另外就是賣食產業我想展覽會經濟我今天就不談太多了改天再談那也就是說這些東西是不是請交通部可以思考觀光組可以思考就是說除了我們之前的提升方案之外我給這些具體的建議希望說也能夠去思考那也能夠最終達到我們一千萬的目標甚至一千二的目標我們還可以再繼續努力"},{"start":6520.563,"end":6521.184,"text":"許智傑委員林俊憲委員"},{"start":6541.893,"end":6556.923,"text":"感謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳世凱部長請陳部長我們高工局的趙局長請趙局長我們港港局的葉局長請葉局長和路政司的林司長請林司長"},{"start":6568.578,"end":6585.046,"text":"現在港務局要開始實施動態地棒了那你現在動態地棒其實他要先做的應該是源頭管理就是說他在在港在港港裡面在港務局"},{"start":6586.167,"end":6607.297,"text":"香港局應該要先做好你源頭管理就是進來的貨櫃你到底有沒有操縱然後他如果記錄再傳遞過來那現在因為沒有所以目前你高空局你就在實施動態地棒所以造成現在高速公路上的地棒站車輛會大排長龍趙局長你知道吧"},{"start":6612.11,"end":6640.087,"text":"要請局長跟委員報告我們現在有在做一個偵測就是說基本上就是說有回賭我們就會暫時停棒因為因為你高空局你要上下上下都要配套要做好然後你才開始來實施嘛那你現在高空局先實施高速公路你看你看那個貨櫃車你看排排了多長所有貨櫃車都大排長龍了那排幾百公尺都有排了準備進入地棒站啊"},{"start":6641.598,"end":6667.532,"text":"那你這樣會造成什麼樣最大的危險就是交通嘛地棒站是非常危險的一個地段他很容易發生車禍部長是你知道我查過去5年就好了過去5年在地棒站發生了車禍就有將近就有2000跨2100件"},{"start":6671.104,"end":6696.577,"text":"每一年都有400件車禍發生在地棒站然後過去5年在地棒站車禍撞死了有8個人受傷的有263個人那你現在又搞這個自己搞自己的你弄一個動態地棒站你再回來看那個照片在地棒站大排長龍車你看到沒有"},{"start":6699.147,"end":6709.184,"text":"所以這個你應該要先配合那個 韓港局基本上韓港局你現在你現在就是對於進口的貨櫃是不是全部都要過半"},{"start":6710.697,"end":6730.652,"text":"未來?對,包委員,進口貨櫃的部分,我們會建立一個進口的操縱櫃的篩選系統,那已經預計在11月底就會完成。部長,他就是說,他現在進口的禮拜會去每天他就要櫃房了。對,沒錯。對不對,那如果操縱的,你要怎麼辦?叫他拆櫃?"},{"start":6732.294,"end":6758.499,"text":"對,操縱呢,我們會警示這個貨櫃車的駕駛,然後在這個門哨的路口,也會把他攔下來,那他就出不去嘛,對,然後會進行拆櫃,對不對,他拆櫃嘛,或者是你不拆,那你就扣留他嘛,就壓櫃嘛,對不對,不會讓他出港區,就不讓他出港區嘛,所以,那這樣的紀錄傳過來,你在高速公路上,需要進棒去蹭的車輛就少了啦,"},{"start":6759.69,"end":6779.377,"text":"基本上操縱的貨櫃幾乎出不來了啦,是不是這樣子?那你到時候在高速公路上需要被叫進來過放的車子就很少那你現在沒有,你現在沿途管理都還沒開始啊,你高空局你要叫"},{"start":6780.277,"end":6792.723,"text":"現在他車子叫進去的狀況是這樣他過那個他過行動的地棒站行動地棒站當他超過了其實我們還是有個寬容值寬容值原本是10%那過的時候我們是拉到20%超過20%的才會進地棒站沒有超過20%不會進地棒站"},{"start":6803.909,"end":6828.841,"text":"但是就是 車子就 你要有彈性嘛 因為你現在在示範嘛你不要影響到交通安全 行車安全沒有到那麼多啦沒有啦 你就不要造成行車的 行車的安全安全的危險嘛那就是說 有排隊過場的時候 我們馬上就停止你要馬上停止嘛只是這個是很正確啦 如果真的造成擁塞 或者是排隊的狀況 那就要馬上停止 這不可以再繼續"},{"start":6830.782,"end":6859.169,"text":"現行貨櫃幾乎不用過放你知道嗎?這個我曉得啦 這樣就很容易發生錯誤了啦現在比較特殊的是這樣因為現在很多貨櫃跟過去不一樣過去很多貨櫃都是從港出來的或者是說從碼頭出來那你港匯局先處理好對 這個好管制但現在有很多的貨櫃是直接在內陸運輸啦不是真正在海外運輸的這個部分反正啦"},{"start":6860.65,"end":6874.023,"text":"我已經提醒你了你不要造成民怨嘛一般用路人看很可怕跟委員報告我們是以交通安全的觀點在切入在做這件事情因為在載重的部分他甚至我們偵測到我沒有反對你去過棒"},{"start":6877.193,"end":6877.513,"text":"我再講一個安全的問題"},{"start":6895.742,"end":6899.464,"text":"提醒港府局,進口貨櫃全部都過半,超重的會拆櫃或壓櫃,現在裡面有足夠的空間嗎?有足夠的動線嗎?幾乎各貨櫃廠都是大塞車,台灣經濟不錯,所以各貨櫃廠都塞滿滿的,現在拖出來"},{"start":6919.275,"end":6940.852,"text":"因為他有沒有操縱你要拖出來嘛你車頭車拖累把載去過半你要安排好動線你裡面有空間嗎你有迴轉的距離嗎對 辦公委員這個我們現在四個會議港我們都會跟港務公司幾乎是不可能啦你也趕快去弄好了要不然到時候又造成很大的民怨拖延貨物進出關的時間啊"},{"start":6942.332,"end":6943.253,"text":"藍尿油算是危險物品"},{"start":6971.494,"end":6994.653,"text":"我們維繫貨品政府是應該要有法定規定的那你業者業者要去載運燃料油要去哪裡載?要去機場載阿要跟民進黨局去機場載所以呢我去查了一下你去申請載油的車輛阿你都要有通行證沒有錯你要有臨時通行證你只要載100公斤以下的貨品那這家業者"},{"start":7000.834,"end":7020.759,"text":"媒體報導被抓到他在台東花蓮完全都沒有完全都沒有用通勤證這是公然違法的事情這個不行如果有違法一定要裁處我認為政府現在因為我們沒有限制你再用危險物品的載重上限"},{"start":7022.403,"end":7041.306,"text":"你應該要把他限制,現在你老天堂,你現在載500公斤也沒關係,你載幾噸,你載8000公斤也沒關係啦,所以你必須要設定你一個載重的上限,然後逼這些業者你要去使用合法的像潮貫車啦,"},{"start":7043.196,"end":7054.304,"text":"我們目前公路局是不是已經在研議了?研議針對多少公斤以上?用什麼樣的容器?什麼樣子的超貫車載運?是不是已經開始在...你看看這裡在路上行走這個是很可怕的事情"},{"start":7055.86,"end":7080.397,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下剛剛講的一個部分就是說貫潮車以外的部分大概就是只有一百公斤這個以下那正常的運作方式應該就是因為超過一百公斤以下他有相對過去五年啦過去五年在運維權物品喔就出了差不多四百二十四千都是歐北債啦那你看喔我們現在國內的那種這種同業啦這些都是自動機公司只有這間啦只有這間那種鐵攤啊你知道啦我不知道他有什麼關係啦"},{"start":7087.077,"end":7088.961,"text":"這家公司曾經被運安會"},{"start":7093.056,"end":7116.59,"text":"公務員報告一下這家公司以前都違規都沒有申請這個臨時通行證那後來這個申請這個臨時通行證之後那個公務局經理也發現到因為他是用小貨車然後申請這個載重的部分超過這個小貨車的總載重量所以也就立即在撤銷他的臨時通行證他載的是燃料用油"},{"start":7117.631,"end":7147.103,"text":"那個藍點很低欸很危險欸所以都是屬於危險物品都要申請臨時通勤啊所以他這個那這家公司為什麼敢這樣做啊所以現在就是說撤銷他的臨時通勤他過去20年摔了5次飛機啊死了8個人啊脅迫臨就死在這家公司的我們除了是後續的管理之外從源頭我們也跟中郵在協調就是在郵的時候如果看到他是用不合格你要要求啊一定要有通勤證你才可以載啊第二個你要限制啦"},{"start":7147.643,"end":7149.564,"text":"接下來邀請魯明哲召委"},{"start":7183.499,"end":7200.526,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們交通部陳部長請陳部長這個外送人平台的這個是林市長嗎這未來是市長管理還是公路局啊未來管理單位到底是誰啊公路局公路局也來一下"},{"start":7205.507,"end":7225.444,"text":"有看到你們要針對我們汽車運輸業的管理規則跟它的一個價格的一個準則做一個預告不管是修正新增的這個的部分我看到了我現在很多民眾也看到了那當然未來我看到在整個這個你們的汽車貨運業裡面的像這種"},{"start":7229.047,"end":7231.328,"text":"訂價格的準則很多啦包括計程車你要怎麼遊戲規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規"},{"start":7258.416,"end":7282.336,"text":"就是在我們計程車業者你要營業登記證幾年申請制你有多重的一個管制你要考上更大的客車或營業你要經歷過多少一個部分但事實上我們在外送平台的一個我們的機車外送員事實上是比較進入是沒有障礙的你只要考上駕照你就可以進入你有沒有每一年檢驗要不要回信不用 完全不用"},{"start":7283.056,"end":7283.076,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7303.453,"end":7325.991,"text":"然後跟店家得到這個訊息之後不管是買食物商品備貨然後有外送員送過去那這個我特別提醒就是紅色這個部分消費者跟店家是主體是實體也就是說這兩個必須在其他的不在面照樣可以吃只不過要走過去"},{"start":7327.232,"end":7327.513,"text":"關鍵點在哪裏?"},{"start":7353.002,"end":7377.089,"text":"這三個 下面三個消費者 外送員 店家我覺得都需要被關注我們在訂這個規則的時候當然是相關的業者工會來主導我覺得應該要這是時機了而且太慢了為什麼呢因為今年年中的時候看到哇 某一家外送平台要併購另外一家外送平台居然併購的價格9.5億的美金它會超過300億的台幣我第一個感覺說"},{"start":7383.28,"end":7408.057,"text":"這是一個非常賺錢的一個平台的一個行業那我覺得應該要用第一線打拚的外送員他應該受到更多的保障我相信部長跟大家的想法都一樣那第二個呢因為如果併購成功併購成功他會變一個台灣兩大的一個外送平台的業者變成一個獨大所以對於我們外送員"},{"start":7408.977,"end":7410.878,"text":"部長您的想法是不是也是這樣"},{"start":7428.045,"end":7446.711,"text":"報告委員我覺得外送的這個議題相當的大牽扯到的部會也相當的多而且它是一個新興的一個數位的平台的消費模式新興的模式但目前為止政府對於這方面似乎是沒有任何的法令在管理那交通部是處理最上位的那個地方最上位就是運費"},{"start":7447.551,"end":7447.791,"text":"好部長"},{"start":7478.722,"end":7490.547,"text":"這個從外送委員來看我剛剛已經說了事實上從疫情之前2019年到大概去年統計真的超過三倍去年登記的人數這是勞動部的一個資料這個產業我們整個台灣"},{"start":7495.629,"end":7523.895,"text":"的自己的國民在做這個行業需要受到保障的人數這個行業算非常多所以我們制定一些法規我覺得他是有他的合理性第二個我們外送平台的可以講外送員他的一個事故我說真的有時候騎著機車不管是雨天天氣冷熱天說真的不容易所以他們發生一個事故的統計我大概每天平均三個人在台北市所以我是覺得"},{"start":7525.435,"end":7549.533,"text":"這種法規這種預告也好現在大家都預期啦如果我們政府介入預告半天薪水會越領越低也不要預告啦大家都預估未來外送員的一個權利福利會能夠比較好但是我還是要提醒一下現在消費者也在擔心啊我覺得有一個目標啦我覺得有一個方向我是覺得要從平台這個雲上啊"},{"start":7550.509,"end":7574.194,"text":"有賺的錢去分享給我們下面的國人不管國人的角色是外送員是消費者是店家他在第一線這麼努力我是覺得這個法規如果弄到最後啊如果這樣消費者現在在問我當然你們也不清楚嘛因為各縣市到底怎麼定但是未來你們透明化的結果可能是幾層續層再加上"},{"start":7577.835,"end":7599.033,"text":"樓層夜間11點之後春節我覺得夜間跟春節這個蠻合理的我自己覺得蠻合理的但是樓層費到底要怎麼收是按照我訂的時候我是10樓還是說我訂的時候你要送貨的時候我擺樓下還是說坐電梯的比較輕鬆爬樓梯的怎麼弄我真的不清楚"},{"start":7599.673,"end":7617.539,"text":"不過等待費這個部分我請教一下市長也好部長這個店家等待費你們定義就你們定義是指等待完成製餐是什麼意義就是說外送委員到我店面在等餐了這個時間等了5分鐘是不是要計費"},{"start":7620.64,"end":7646.86,"text":"等待費的部分的話因為當時這個大家討論的部分就有點參照這個計程車的一個概念那計程車的部分的話他是有這個等待客人這樣子的一個這個費用但是這個部分的話有一些參數的部分的話這個後面各縣市這個性質會不一樣大家一定要共同做討論那另外一個部分的話就是說這段期間包括委員所提的樓層費或是這個"},{"start":7648.982,"end":7649.362,"text":"等待費等待費等待費"},{"start":7668.639,"end":7668.799,"text":"報告委員："},{"start":7697.698,"end":7697.718,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":7715.703,"end":7716.023,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7738.379,"end":7757.05,"text":"因為店家也在反映現在當然這兩家業者平台業者應該可能都在國外我們很歡迎全世界的這個要做生意的來台灣我們都很歡迎開放的可是問題現在每一家店面就是一個單他大概平均我知道抽3成多3成多賣個便當100塊"},{"start":7759.872,"end":7759.992,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7782.842,"end":7808.257,"text":"我們預期外送人員他的條件是必要變好不然我們就白幹了對不對他變好的這些錢如果再來是店家他3乘5變成要出4乘4乘5我跟你講到最後的結果是大概就完全跟我們想法完全不一樣為什麼店家不玩了如果店家不玩了或者消費者覺得很貴了他也不玩了"},{"start":7808.917,"end":7809.057,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":7826.127,"end":7827.068,"text":"接下來邀請廖先祥委員"},{"start":7863.695,"end":7864.175,"text":"邀請陳副部長陳副部長"},{"start":7880.507,"end":7903.943,"text":"我覺得一直以來像我們交通部好像都是男性的首長居多啦那當然啦這可能跟部會的你本來的組成就有關係啦可能本來女性在交通部的比例本來就比較低一點啦那我覺得你還是可以檢視一下我們女性首長所佔的比例跟我們女性這個所佔的員額的比例相比啦是不是有明顯的落差啦所以這一排只有何...何...何...對啊 只有何局長次啦"},{"start":7904.764,"end":7906.286,"text":"有關於行人安全的部分您說今年的目標是要降"},{"start":7922.148,"end":7922.769,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":7944.411,"end":7958.675,"text":"報告委員我們看今年度的這個行人的這個傷亡的人數是往好的方向是往好的方向所以你現在還是有信心就是在年底達到7%的一個目標我這樣跟委員報告這是我設定"},{"start":7958.715,"end":7986.031,"text":"設定的目標因為我剛才講了50%分成幾年下來算一年是7%我們希望能夠達到不過因為我們的改善工程現在正在做包含法令上面的規定包含行人早開時效我相信委員在路上走應該感受得到我們正在建立這個觀念所以我相信未來的數字可能會更好現在我們正在努力當中不過設定的目標還是一樣7%一樣7%嘛好但是至少沒有背離越來越遠就好了"},{"start":7986.691,"end":8014.914,"text":"是這樣好謝謝謝謝部長然後另外我請教一下麻煩一樣我們那個氣象署陳書長這個要請教的就是前些日子在我們瑞芳還有金山萬里其實都有發生相當大的豪雨然後造成了這個災害那當然瑞芳的時候是颱風尾那其實金山萬里那時候颱風警報也解除了我想確認一下我們氣象署"},{"start":8015.782,"end":8044.413,"text":"有預期到雨量會這麼大嗎?或者說你們到什麼樣子的時間點才發現雨量到這麼大的情況下可能會自災?我們其實在前一天晚上已經有報出來那個雨量是非常大只是短時強降雨這件事情它的雨量大到非常大的狀態我們是採用監測的作為因為預報的確沒有那麼準我們的數值預報的參考資料大概報到七成實際降雨...瑞芳有報?金山萬里有報嗎?有"},{"start":8045.433,"end":8066.825,"text":"有,那因為當天的天氣,說真的啦,早上可能還是相對平緩的,那當然我們前一天有提醒,那當下呢,就是可能下午差不多兩點左右開始急降雨嘛,經常下午兩點急降雨,那我們是哪時候發現到這個情況可能會有點失控或者是超出我們的預期?"},{"start":8068.285,"end":8087.11,"text":"10月4號其實整天我們大概做了9次大雷雨及時訊息還有13次的通報裡面包含了5次細胞廣播那這個是從早上從零點開始就一直不斷的在做那因為報災的這個事情發生的時間大概是在下午3點那我們其實有做了整個盤點我們從"},{"start":8088.59,"end":8114.013,"text":"早上的我們不要說太晚我們譬如從早上的10點到下午3點這5個小時裡面我們相關發布的包含了這個豪大宇的預報還有及時訊息還有PWS加起來總共是七八八次左右好那麻煩我們會後是不是能夠請我們的氣象署提供一下我們可能在瑞芳或者是金山萬里在發生強降雨之前我們有可能做了哪些民眾提醒的作業那我們也可以後續來"},{"start":8115.094,"end":8115.194,"text":"主席"},{"start":8128.698,"end":8152.984,"text":"另外這個部長前幾天有個新聞看您有沒有要先澄清一下或是說新聞報導跟你講的有點不一樣問台鐵的就是說大家都說漲電價了那台鐵是不是也要漲價那部長您的說法好像是說先從節能做起嘛對不對我不曉得部長你有沒有瞭解這句話沒錯嘛沒有曲解那你有沒有瞭解我們台鐵他繳電費的這個結構的問題"},{"start":8157.012,"end":8168.297,"text":"他們之前有給我一些數據但是我一個數據也報告給委員在今年度就是113年他們有申請到這個節能的這個補助4500萬那也確實做到了1.3%的這個節能那針對這次的電費調漲我特別有打電話給這個經濟部的能源署拜託他們針對台鐵的用電的部分專案再來輔導那輔導其實有兩個方法我其實不知道講電價這件事情"},{"start":8183.123,"end":8211.358,"text":"我是要跟部長說有時候我們的一句話可能會造成我們台鐵很大基層的一些困擾我們台鐵最大的用電量在哪裡列車吧列車應該是列車嘛列車佔的比例大概多少比例上是多少百分之十三但是現在列車都正在更新當中啦那會更節電列車佔了百分之十三然後暫停的空調冷氣之類的或是必要的營運就是給旅客方面的啦"},{"start":8212.757,"end":8222.039,"text":"百分之多少不到百分之十不到百分之十百分之二十三這些阿剩下的剩下的用在哪邊你直接回答好嗎"},{"start":8223.542,"end":8248.149,"text":"跟委員報告我們用電那個大部分還是集中在我們的行車行車上面行車嘛就剛剛講13%對那就是其他的不過剛剛講起來還有70多%報告委員還有哪些大宗不是13%是那個我們行車的部分增加了13%我是說全部佔比佔比啦總共佔比大概多少"},{"start":8249.577,"end":8266.659,"text":"行車的佔比應該有超過五成有超過五成嗎那月台的部分呢月台冷氣或是必要的設施車站的部分其次啦因為我們車站很多我們有240個車站那車站的用電大概也佔了差不多百分之三十幾"},{"start":8267.159,"end":8267.179,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":8285.302,"end":8300.658,"text":"我們現在正在換車換車的過程會換得更節電的列車對 它是必要的就算你換完了之後它的用電的固定就是起伏不會因為駕駛起伏趴住不會太大列車的固定已經這麼多了那你月台的部分難不成你要月台不開冷氣嗎"},{"start":8301.459,"end":8302.039,"text":"臺鐵其他可能員工辦公室只剩下那十幾趴"},{"start":8320.936,"end":8344.84,"text":"這是部長講的這句話可能會讓人家誤解從10年前的冷氣換成現在的節能冷氣或許節電的效果會非常好會那這個部分我們其實也希望臺鐵能夠努力對在講的方向是這個方向絕對不是要曲解成說電要少開或者是什麼票票對因為我們常常政府第一個要節電的不只是交通部就是公家機關先節能節電做起冷氣的溫度不要調冷氣不要調再調降了造成"},{"start":8350.221,"end":8369.902,"text":"這已經擠了這麼多年了我相信各個公家機關的辦公廳社已經不太會有浪費電的情況了但是部長講這句話的時候我不知道台鐵的感受是怎麼樣但是我會認為我的開車我的列車就用這麼多電了嘛我的月台我的冷氣我的必要服務旅客就這麼多電了嘛我剩下能夠節電的是什麼"},{"start":8371.303,"end":8372.964,"text":"我希望部長講清楚從我們列車的更換我們一些冷氣的一些汰換等等"},{"start":8385.931,"end":8408.644,"text":"最後部長講的這句話是由所有基層的工作同仁的工作場域來達成不同的一個命令所有工作場域該開的冷氣一定開是所有的月台要服務民眾的服務品質絕對不能降低節電的前提是這些好就是利用更換我們的節電的列車無論列車或者是空調設備等等的燈具等等來達到節電的一個目的沒錯"},{"start":8410.725,"end":8417.651,"text":"那我希望這個方向能夠正確不要讓台鐵或是基層有不同的誤解好不好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝廖先祥委員在這邊先補充公告就是等一下在邱若驊委員質詢後休息10分鐘那接下來邀請黃建豪委員"},{"start":8447.317,"end":8449.127,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":8459.821,"end":8459.841,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8483.491,"end":8502.141,"text":"假設的成功這個法律通過了之後這個加價的錢是進哪裡報告委員第一他不一定是加價我們現在只是把計算的可能性的方式拿出來讓大家討論因為現在法令還在預告期所以他不一定是加價這筆錢以後會到哪裡去是進到平我的問題說這個錢比如說假設有這樣的公司出來了那這個費用是給"},{"start":8509.125,"end":8525.2,"text":"外送員還是給平台業者報告委員目前的狀況是這個樣子外送平台他們一定有收運費但那個運費不透明所以你也不曉得你被收了多少運費那運費到底到外送員手上有多少也不曉得"},{"start":8525.74,"end":8526.16,"text":"如果今天"},{"start":8547.566,"end":8563.472,"text":"對不起,如果今天齁,打斷你一下,你今天講說要把這個準則把它列清楚,這個我每,假設我每交一單,我的多少錢裡面,裡面是多少錢是食物,多少錢是運費,那如果像今天以今天這個修正草案的準則裡面其實並沒有包含給外省多少錢的費用,如果你要把它明定,你會明定出來嗎?"},{"start":8564.172,"end":8564.572,"text":"部長這樣講變成這個是一個跨部會的沒有錯"},{"start":8590.14,"end":8590.16,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":8620.26,"end":8645.123,"text":"那如果今天運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來但是裡面如果沒有包含這怎麼拆帳的話那其實他一樣回到商業機制啦那如果回到商業機制當初訂這個法律的條件報告委員當時候其實有好多的討論因為包含立法院也相當多的委員很關心這個議題那也討論過相當多次也有跨部會的協調也有協調過那各部會給我們的反應就是說"},{"start":8645.823,"end":8672.422,"text":"當你最上位的運費沒有確定的時候他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立所以這是最上位的我剛剛一直強調最上位就是說我們這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚你像這個員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少這個部分就沒有辦法走下去所以我們只能處理最上面這一端而已應該這樣講啦這是我的建議啦你說你基本運費當然平台收走了可是你說夜間、延遲、春節、樓層"},{"start":8674.404,"end":8674.624,"text":"李宗盛議員"},{"start":8693.366,"end":8713.08,"text":"其實我們把它運價透明化的因素也就是說剛剛委員所提到的很不希望所有的運費或者是費用全部到平台那裡去所以要有一個透明的過程大家才知道不然現在平台其實基本上也不會告訴店家也不會告訴外送員甚至消費者所看到的運費的計價也不一定是真實的"},{"start":8713.88,"end":8740.627,"text":"那我們希望讓他透明化之後在各方面要做分配或者是說有什麼意見的時候到時候比較容易來做處理部長我的希望就是因為你既然把這個條件雖然是預告階段那既然條件都那麼清楚了但是我希望這個要做完這一點哪些加收的部分因為運費我就講運費就運費但是加收的部分我覺得你應該還是在這個條件裡面應該要所謂的該給外送員的給外送員"},{"start":8741.067,"end":8741.388,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8751.38,"end":8751.94,"text":"討論到公路部分"},{"start":8778.223,"end":8799.381,"text":"我想這邊大家對大客車的這個問題也是非常在意啦那你看當然大客車的價值執照每年每年基本上八九萬跑不掉但是實際上真正在開車的人從103年近10年來從6400多人現在降到3500多人所以整個台灣社會大客車價值就直接少了3000人啦所以理論上來講那我們再講一下"},{"start":8799.781,"end":8817.182,"text":"如果大客車的人數邏輯上來講能開車的人變少了那理論上在路上跑的大客車理論上應該也要變少但實際上就沒有嘛實際上客車還是一樣這麼多這麼多在開那什麼原因造成的那就是代表現有的這個3500多人他去承擔了過去6000人要開的車次"},{"start":8819.192,"end":8819.372,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8837.152,"end":8861.128,"text":"他的薪資本分非常非常低,他的底薪只有1萬2,剩下的有的沒有的津貼加起來之後可能才8萬多塊,所以他的本分是很低的,他本薪這麼低,那靠這麼多有的沒有的,在客的、伙食的什麼獎金有的沒有的,他才能加到這個部分,這個底薪1萬2,其實我覺得這個真的是,你用這個底薪你怎麼會找得到足夠的資金呢?"},{"start":8862.049,"end":8887.966,"text":"所以部長你對這個事情有什麼看法委員你這樣講齁我看這樣子看起來確實是不合理交通部一直在努力在做補貼在做補助我們希望駕駛人員可以來增加但實際上他們領到的數額或許是非常的低然後底薪尤其是底薪啦齁左邊一萬二啦右邊那個是3600不同公司的左邊的一萬二右邊這兩張不同的大部分的勞工都會希望自己的基本底薪要高因為這關係到退休退休金的部分"},{"start":8888.706,"end":8915.952,"text":"所以他不應該是這樣處理但是這個部分的管轄應該是在地方政府那我們會要求地方政府就是說落實針對駕駛人員的這個他的薪資的部分應該要怎麼給付對駕駛員來講是比較合理的我們會來拜託地方政府來協助這一塊因為當然地方政府是執行單位啦那我們期待就像你剛剛提到很多是上位原則的問題如果全台灣的大客車畢竟還是公路局是交通部在管"},{"start":8916.912,"end":8928.989,"text":"全台灣的大客車駕駛它的如果底薪各自都不一樣而且是這樣低薪的狀況那造成的結果是全台灣各家業者之間推出來的薪水長這樣駕駛員長這樣子那當然第一個"},{"start":8932.108,"end":8933.889,"text":"我們會同地方政府一起來協助這些公運業者大家針對這個駕駛人員的這個薪資的合理化這個部分我們來處理"},{"start":8959.884,"end":8959.924,"text":"大客駕駛"},{"start":8975.665,"end":8992.323,"text":"講白了這些客運現有的客運業者或客運駕駛他真的犯規的人他也皮皮啊那反正市場就不夠反正所有業者都要去搶我這個人口需要我這個人力所以他就算真的犯錯他真的怎麼樣你就算懲處他他也不怕他離開這間公司他去下一間公司就好了"},{"start":8993.084,"end":9010.493,"text":"所以一樣的駕駛一樣的悲劇會一再一再重演所以這個東西要拜託啦你如果薪資有達到一定的基本的保障一定的水準你才有可能去把這個駕駛找回來嘛因為現在最核心最最最大問題是很多駕駛他有大貨車駕照的大客車駕照的他可以做很多事情的"},{"start":9010.913,"end":9011.153,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9027.156,"end":9027.336,"text":"黃建豪委員"},{"start":9049.758,"end":9057.948,"text":"接下來邀請邱若驊委員那我們在邱若驊委員質詢之後休息10分鐘那休息後我們處理臨時提案謝謝主席主席有請交通部陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":9078.43,"end":9092.865,"text":"桃園機場是我國最大的民用機場也是我國重要的國門在新冠疫情結束之後桃機的客運量逐年增加就今年的客量來說總計人數是2900"},{"start":9095.928,"end":9096.288,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9122.19,"end":9125.491,"text":"本席給部長看一些照片我們來看到這是10月9號凌晨拍攝的部長您知道這是哪裡嗎?"},{"start":9147.194,"end":9166.989,"text":"應該是桃園機場沒錯就是桃園機場那看到這樣子那麼多國內外旅客半夜排隊等車部長有沒有嚇到我覺得不要讓大家等太久啦或許排隊上車是好事但是不要在那邊候車候太久這是不好的是那桃園捷運往台北最後一班車在第一航廈他最晚是晚上11點37分這代表清晨12點到"},{"start":9171.032,"end":9171.212,"text":"部長您認為這樣夠嗎?"},{"start":9193.059,"end":9212.572,"text":"是我覺得這樣的班次目前看起來因為我們沒有看實際的現場的狀況如果照委員剛剛提供的那個現場的狀況看起來是等待太久的狀況的話是不好的那這個部分我相信我想公路局這邊是不是可以滾動來檢討如果該增加班次我們來增加"},{"start":9213.412,"end":9240.167,"text":"跟委員報告大概就是說這一個夜間的這個部分的話目前從機場到這一個北部地區還有6條路線那當然就是說未來就是說這些班次的話我們配合就是說這個航班的他的紅眼班次也就是說他的那個到達機場的那個時間那我們的這個客運的班次盡量跟他配合讓民眾就是說不要等待太久另外就是說每一個班次的這個搭乘的乘客的部分我們來調查"},{"start":9241.027,"end":9265.251,"text":"那當然就是說如果說這個有班次需要再增班的部分我們來要求客運業者不然您身為交通部的大家長那個期是希望您能出面協調陶器然後還有公務局還有客運業者好沒問題我來協調這件事這樣子可以讓就像您剛才所說的讓我們國內的旅客回到臺灣之後可以早點回到家然後也讓國際旅客來到臺灣不會在第一下就造成觀感不佳對沒錯那您願意出面協調嗎當然沒有問題這個我來協調來解決這樣的問題"},{"start":9268.072,"end":9297.258,"text":"OK那後續再提供本席書面之類好沒問題那再來我們看到變造車牌的部分那去年那個道家條例修法之後因為超速吊扣車牌的案件數在新法上路之前統計數是6429件那新法上路後來到了34659件那有一些吊扣被吊扣車牌的車主他們卻知法犯法全快假車牌上路那造成假車牌的案件數激增也有歹徒利用假車牌來犯案造成查案的斷點"},{"start":9298.278,"end":9298.418,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9322.125,"end":9344.745,"text":"公視一月到九月就舉發了八百七十七件相較於去年的同期一百八十九件相較這樣子相較下來他的增加率是百分之三百六十四那插貨或販賣使用變造的車牌那因以新法212216條移送者一百一十二年是一百三十件一百三十九人今年一到九月就插貨了五百五十一件"},{"start":9347.807,"end":9367.391,"text":"編造車牌取得實在是太容易了我們可以看到臺南就有黃姓男子因為車輛車牌遭到註銷委託網友以一萬五千元在網路上就可以取得假車牌那之後也被警方查獲那舊交部長那近年來編造車牌的查詢數節節攀升尤其是今年一到九月"},{"start":9368.391,"end":9371.334,"text":"報告委員我們在這個跨部會的協調因為這個東西執法面是在內政部警政署"},{"start":9389.793,"end":9416.744,"text":"跨部會的協調我們在9月跟10月我們舉辦過一兩次的跨部會協調我們要針對就是說跨機關的查緝第一個我們要做第二個是針對平台的部分這個是速發部要協助的讓他能夠快速下架因為委員有提到說網路購買非常容易所以當我們看到的時候要讓他快速能夠下架這個很重要還有一個就是溯源的管制也就是說從海關的部分如果我們有查驗到有這個假的車牌準備要進口了我們在海關就要把它擋下來"},{"start":9417.244,"end":9418.145,"text":"部長您在運輸的時候也有提到會來跨部會來做協調跟討論那目前進度到哪了"},{"start":9434.341,"end":9434.741,"text":"邱教育部長"},{"start":9450.094,"end":9466.665,"text":"在14號的時候共軍東部戰區在凌晨突襲式的宣布發動今年第二度的維台軍演離間聯合離間2024B那隨後對岸海警局也緊接著宣布派出四支海警編隊對台灣展開環島巡航管控任務是"},{"start":9468.71,"end":9488.578,"text":"本席認為如果兩岸的情勢持續惡化﹖對岸的軍援只會變成常態的那因為地形的因素很預示我國重要的經濟命脈那香港局主責也是確保民用傳播航行安全那本席就教香港局幾個問題那對於中共14日臨時發布軍援香港局第一時間的因應是什麼"},{"start":9489.688,"end":9511.25,"text":"在第一時間我們有透過海岸電台的廣播告訴周邊的船隻大家要注意安全航港局有做這樣子的廣播跟宣導第二我們針對海域周圍的監控跟監視我們也配合我們的海巡跟我們的國軍大家針對監控的部分也有在關注"},{"start":9511.69,"end":9535.187,"text":"那還好這次他們的演習大概說法有但實際上並沒有造成我們的船舶的運輸有任何的這個進出方面的問題沒有造成這樣的結果是有建立一套完整的SOP了嗎這個部分有我們都有一套完整的SOP不管是民航的部分就是說空運的部分或者是海運的部分我們的SOP都有那有需要請他們來報告一下嗎"},{"start":9538.226,"end":9560.135,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是剛剛部長提到第一個我們會用海岸電台跟我們的海事中心利用廣播跟新聞的方式新聞就是文字的方式然後我們可以傳播的這個範圍長達150海里所以整個臺灣海峽還有東部海域都能夠含括在這個廣播的範圍內所以第一個即時的"},{"start":9560.675,"end":9561.255,"text":"那現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9594.793,"end":9597.495,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9624.13,"end":9624.47,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9654.921,"end":9655.902,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9679.017,"end":9679.237,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9704.923,"end":9704.983,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9735.049,"end":9735.389,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9765.55,"end":9766.051,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9781.557,"end":9781.757,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9801.14,"end":9801.98,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9828.166,"end":9855.179,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9856.563,"end":9856.823,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9886.511,"end":9887.853,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9911.664,"end":9939.923,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9940.124,"end":9940.264,"text":"主席"},{"start":9947.602,"end":9975.401,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9980.849,"end":9981.25,"text":"提供的內容"},{"start":9996.964,"end":9997.724,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10018.346,"end":10018.606,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10041.493,"end":10065.145,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":10066.404,"end":10067.025,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10092.466,"end":10115.674,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":10116.154,"end":10116.554,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10140.468,"end":10141.108,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10154.564,"end":10155.105,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10193.244,"end":10194.865,"text":"現在處理臨時提案,請議事人員一併宣讀。"},{"start":10202.335,"end":10217.857,"text":"宣讀臨時提案一介於國道4號清水段的長下坡與臨港道路口道路為顯示地方上長期的問題原始要求交通部應就國道4號清水段及臨港路"},{"start":10218.718,"end":10238.27,"text":"三段安全問題立即進行短期改善並且於6個月內完成臺中港年外高快速系統整體評估研議國道4號往昔延伸可行性維護鄉親用路安全提案人委員蔡啟昌等因實提案2"},{"start":10239.19,"end":10259.052,"text":"高鐵延伸至屏東計畫於108年9月10日由行政委員正式宣布﹖然至今已過5年計畫仍困於路線核定階段。藉由區域均衡發展及交通平權之目標﹖交通部應儘速完成高鐵行經路線之溝通﹖"},{"start":10259.873,"end":10283.093,"text":"緣此要求交通部優先施作6塊處車站使其高價化且得與高鐵共購並於113年筆前合併高鐵延伸至屏東之路線提案人委員徐富奎等宣錄完畢好針對臨時提案第1案請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見那個提案委員我講到了"},{"start":10286.618,"end":10303.846,"text":"交通部有一些文字修正本席全部支持主要是這樣其實這個案子交通部已經跟本席開過協調會我想做一個提案來把當時我們的一些結論做一些確定主要就是"},{"start":10304.566,"end":10326.145,"text":"他不但是安全問題也是發展的問題安全問題在於那個國道4號進入臨港路車速過快所以常常會有一些事故的產生這是安全問題但他其實背後根結的還是在於台中港整體的發展也就是台中港作為這個現在逐漸在蓬勃發展的一個港口"},{"start":10326.886,"end":10348.937,"text":"那長期下來他的連外道路的特別是快速道路的這些連結的系統應該交通部要及早有一個規劃所以呢我做了一個這樣的臨時提案那文字就依照交通部修正的文字好謝謝蔡啟昌委員那是不是請優待交通部附送一下你們的修正意見"},{"start":10351.791,"end":10378.069,"text":"經跟委員報告以後我們建議的那個內容修正如下就是有關6個月內完成臺中港聯外高快速系統後面加聯絡兩個字整體評估另外就是研議國道4號延伸可行性這整個整計劃刪掉以上好那如果沒有其他意見我們就照修正建議通過"},{"start":10379.622,"end":10407.25,"text":"好那針對臨時提案第2案請我問各位委員及行政單位有無意見好請徐副會委員好謝謝主席我想高鐵南延屏東這個案子已經討論了很多年那從2019年我們蘇貞昌院長宣布之後那到現在又過了5年還在討論所謂的一個路線的問題那本席也強烈要求這個交通部基於這個區域均衡發展這個及交通平均的一個目標"},{"start":10408.751,"end":10432.148,"text":"應該盡快完成所謂一個屏東路線的一個定案讓屏東也可以享受一個所謂一個便捷的一個交通網絡那而且本席也要求交通部應該優先試坐6塊車站並搭配高鐵做一個高價化的一個規劃那讓這個整個期程能夠縮短以上補充說明好謝謝徐委員那請問行政代委有無修正意見"},{"start":10433.05,"end":10450.279,"text":"跟徐委員還有張偉報告,剛剛有跟委員報告,就是委員的訴求跟要求我們充分的瞭解,也會全力來推動跟執行那建議兩個地方做文字上的修正,倒數第二行,原始要求交通部優先施作六塊座車站"},{"start":10451.15,"end":10475.507,"text":"這個要求我們建議改成建請那這樣我們在行政上比較好處理那最後一行113年底合定高鐵延伸屏東之路線因為交通部其實現在沒有辦法做合定的行政程序我們是不是建議改成確定把合定改成確定以上報告謝謝好謝謝那徐委員那就麻煩交通部要照我們這樣的一個啟程來做努力謝謝"},{"start":10476.881,"end":10478.562,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢,如有委員對上述提案補簽,列入記錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":10504.27,"end":10509.074,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長、觀光署、周署長部長早、署長早今天還是就觀光的問題就叫交通部我看了一下統計的數據"},{"start":10531.405,"end":10554.983,"text":"這個出境的觀光人數持續的跟入境持續的逆差那我有請周署長上一次到我辦公室拜會的時候我有請你就這一個問題到底在就我一直在強調這個我們要解決一個問題也就是說大家說國旅不好"},{"start":10556.141,"end":10570.684,"text":"那入境旅客也沒有辦法達到疫情前如果你從這個統計表就可以看得到這個中間中間這一節是疫情我們就姑且不論"},{"start":10572.349,"end":10600.521,"text":"疫情前跟疫情後哪怕疫後大概也一兩年的時間了所以這個數字的回復的狀況並沒有辦法達到疫前所以普遍觀光業者觀光產業普遍這兩年這個哀鴻遍野大家很多的這個對於這個觀光業的產業的發展大家存在很大的危機感那我有請"},{"start":10602.645,"end":10619.741,"text":"署裡面做一個基本的研究也就是我一直覺得要對症下藥才有辦法來面對觀光產業的問題那我不知道這個署裡面有沒有已經做出因為已經過了好幾個月了你們認為觀光產業現在的狀況為什麼會差"},{"start":10627.142,"end":10630.124,"text":"主要是我們的國旅的部分我們預判今年應該人次可以恢復到疫情前"},{"start":10644.511,"end":10666.086,"text":"但是我們的這個住宿的部分可能還沒辦法達到也就是說我們現在一日遊還是佔70%就是留宿的部分比較少那外來來台觀光旅客我們的目標是年底要達到1000萬那現在大概到10月初是600萬"},{"start":10667.227,"end":10671.729,"text":"我們的目標還是沒變但是確實不可抗力的因素有幾個那第一個是地震第二個是颱風第三個是軍演那這三個因素確實受到影響"},{"start":10689.258,"end":10690.579,"text":"規律差日本出境800萬"},{"start":10704.434,"end":10704.754,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10729.241,"end":10731.202,"text":"韓國的部分跟我們台灣是比較像他出鏡的量也很高他將近1900萬"},{"start":10745.67,"end":10773.555,"text":"那截至到目前為止他的出鏡也是入鏡少出鏡多這個是一個各國不同的因素是讓我花一點時間讓你講是因為這個我還是覺得在這個所謂問題的掌握上剛剛我聽到的你認為這個來台旅客人數少主要原因是大環境的因素啦譬如說你提到軍演"},{"start":10774.622,"end":10798.631,"text":"你提到地震還有一個是颱風還有匯率那如果照這個邏輯因為我們做措施是為了解決問題也就是我們端出政策是為了解決問題那上述這四個看起來都不是你觀光局可以解決的對不對"},{"start":10799.895,"end":10816.092,"text":"不是嘛齁那而且這四個我也說實在話齁除了你講到匯率那可能是對日本的匯率比較有差啦但是我們的觀光客當然日本是一個很大的來源那像韓國或其他是我們可以努力的嘛齁那過去"},{"start":10818.001,"end":10838.653,"text":"台灣不是地震不是今年剛發生嘛,地震每一年都有啊,而且地震很頻繁在台灣,就像日本地震也很頻繁,但它無法阻止台灣旅客瘋狂的跑到日本去那一樣的道理,台風,日本的台風我覺得以這兩年來看,日本的台風還比台灣更多,對不對"},{"start":10839.246,"end":10859.165,"text":"那第三個這個軍演軍演我看也不是今年嘛而且以軍演的角度來看以最近這次軍演台灣股市也不受任何影響他軍演他的台灣股市還是照漲所以我的意思是說如果以這個客觀因素就光光數去理解到這個"},{"start":10861.307,"end":10884.141,"text":"路徑旅客減少如果是把這個當成重要目標這是第一個我認為我其實是不是太能夠接受那第二個我反推啦因為我不知道你沒有給我這個詳細數據的報告到底為什麼那我反推我從你的政策來反推譬如說你現在吼這個叫做第四季的加碼措施"},{"start":10884.921,"end":10910.793,"text":"也就是外國團客你發了獎助也就是說來台補助譬如說來台灣住幾天的美團獎助金一萬八到四十九人提高美團獎助金三萬五十人以上美團獎助金四萬換言之觀光局在這一個問題這一個政策我的理解是認為來台灣旅行太貴"},{"start":10912.79,"end":10938.791,"text":"因為太貴所以我政府端出的一個政策就是我幫你補貼我的理解啦每一個政策背後他一定有問題要解決嘛那你推出這個現金補貼其實就是象徵著台灣太貴啦外國人買不來所以我就發獎金鼓勵他來這個是一個嘛第二個我看你找了這個"},{"start":10941.085,"end":10942.209,"text":"這個SC的成員歸選來代言台灣觀光"},{"start":10945.711,"end":10972.35,"text":"那找一個韓國的代言韓國的明星代言換言之我背後理解這個政策的目的是你要第一個要攻韓國的市場第二個你認為韓國台灣在韓國人心目當中可能知名度尚不足所以我要找一個代言人知名度很高的代言人韓國人很熟悉的一個明星一個人物他來代言然後讓韓國人更知道台灣"},{"start":10973.96,"end":10979.132,"text":"看起來你推這些政策跟你的客觀分析好像也有點落差"},{"start":10979.793,"end":10980.253,"text":"蘇長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":11007.253,"end":11025.973,"text":"是委員是專家但是我也利用這個機會跟大家報告一下跟委員報告一下就是一些優惠的措施對旅行社來講他們其實還是有些平價的市場那這個各國都有一些措施那第二個我們代言的時候也是有市場區隔"},{"start":11027.334,"end":11029.236,"text":"韓國人就是女生來的少"},{"start":11046.189,"end":11071.701,"text":"但是韓國人又女生出國的觀光客其實很大量很大那因為來台灣的少為什麼所以你們找了一個韓國女生很愛的男星來代言說要不要跟我去台灣玩舉例我不知道你們廣告內容是什麼所以這個叫解決問題所以本席只是告訴你說我不知道你如何對於看待觀光署如何看待"},{"start":11072.861,"end":11101.351,"text":"到底外國觀光客來臺我們沒有辦法回到疫情前那個報告到底是什麼本席很想了解嘛你有那個報告你針對這個報告提預算本席一定全力支持嘛所以我講過我對你的內容我沒有任何反駁我也不覺得這個沒有什麼我沒有什麼特別意見但是我的意思是說你要讓我們作為一個監督者監督交通部我要很清楚知道你們交通部抓到的問題是什麼"},{"start":11102.95,"end":11129.396,"text":"那我還是建議交通部不要再提那個客那些什麼大環境那個啦就是說日本人就有地震地震那麼多人家就不會人數就不會少而且日本客嚇死了叫大家不要來了日本太多客人了對不對所以這個我是覺得提這個又會討罵而已嘛所以我們就針對我們觀察我們統計到因為所有data都在書裡面嘛我們書裡面掌握到這些data不同的市場不同的說法怎麼對症下藥好"},{"start":11131.716,"end":11137.648,"text":"那接下來我只問說請龜賢到代言那我們做了什麼事情"},{"start":11138.665,"end":11164.625,"text":"對就我們請他做了什麼事因為我只好像看到只有記者會吧記者會是開始做對接下來因為我們是前面的前置作業包括的市場調查OK我聽說對然後再來的話他們就是在我們在韓國市場裡面他也來台灣拍實際的所以我們會拍影片對會拍影片然後在韓國不同的管道來在不同的通路來播對通路來播OK然後這個"},{"start":11165.606,"end":11166.207,"text":"韓國市場明年你們的預估可以成長多少?"},{"start":11185.381,"end":11208.937,"text":"韓國跟日本是我們台灣一個非常重要的市場那我們第一個目標是要恢復到疫情之前所以現在我們基本上啦台灣應該有能量日本跟韓國這兩個市場來台灣都應該可以達到200萬人次疫情前是200萬嘛韓國還不到所以你現在希望明年的目標我們還是往這個目標走"},{"start":11210.478,"end":11210.798,"text":"謝謝蔡齊昌委員"},{"start":11250.734,"end":11277.82,"text":"接下來邀請徐副葵委員。謝謝主席。我們有請交通部陳部長、中華電信檢董事長。請中華電信檢董事長。委員好。部長。"},{"start":11280.633,"end":11294.069,"text":"我想這次接連兩個颱風我們有發現一個很嚴重的問題當然這個也有可能會比較涉及到NCC不過交通部我想我們有中華電信也要特別請部長跟董事長來幫忙"},{"start":11295.63,"end":11312.582,"text":"我們發現這次因為颱風造成電力中斷結果我們很多鄉鎮的這個通訊系統都造成很大的一個影響電話都不通LINE也不通結果造成指揮中心沒辦法調度所謂救災跟通報的一個系統"},{"start":11313.402,"end":11333.113,"text":"所以我們發現是不是應該在我們各鄉鎮鄉鎮公所甚至附近鄰近應該設置一個抗災的一個通訊的一個基地台甚至請中華電信調度我們一個行動基地的指揮車到我們的災區來做協助這部長是不是可以來幫忙來做溝通這個事情"},{"start":11333.553,"end":11353.533,"text":"報告委員雖然這個是NCC跟蘇發部跟他們比較有關係的業務那確實我們有中華電信可以來協助但是這個部分我會建議未來是不是透過氣象的預報大概知道災區在哪裡因為行動通信的這個基地台行動基地台的部分不可能大量購置太多我們會盡量來努力"},{"start":11354.594,"end":11384.151,"text":"那未來可能我們要希望中華電信能夠看氣象的狀況我們知道這一次的災情尤其在這個山陀的颱風在高雄跟屏東我們有預先看到那邊有可能會有很嚴重的災情的時候這個部分可能就是要行動的這個基地台我們看要怎麼先處理這塊我們就趕快來處理先預作準備委員在提醒的應該是預作準備的部分我們應該要先做應該要先做那如果災情在別的地方我們其他地方也要先做"},{"start":11384.571,"end":11405.656,"text":"對 因為我知道像我們林邊就設了一個固定式的一個抗災專用的基地台就發揮了很大的一個效果所以我們也可以找幾個 抗災的基地台可能拜託中華電信努力看看那其實實際的調度我們到時候的這個災防應變中心其實他們會來做實際上的調度我相信這一次的災情他們也有調度到一些"},{"start":11405.916,"end":11408.538,"text":"委員跟你報告一下對於颱風的災情我們事實上都有掌握另外我們有緊急變中心所以知道颱風從哪個地方進來我們的行動"},{"start":11430.653,"end":11447.102,"text":"衛星基地台車一定會準備好那救災的時候我們一定會趕快到那另外委員所關心的這個基地台的問題我想基地台受電的影響非常大所以我們現在在對比較偏鄉的基地台我們特別有強化他的電池"},{"start":11448.302,"end":11469.976,"text":"備援系統很重要,停電的時候不要說30分鐘一小時就基地台就倒了我們現在有在偏鄉在強化我們基地台縱使停電我們可以撐4小時6小時至少在一緊急的時候我們可以那另外我們的全省的這個行動車大概有20多部所以會依照哪個地區有狀況我們會把車先開到附近來支援這個救災"},{"start":11476.28,"end":11496.997,"text":"謝謝拜託董事長能夠強迫我們這樣的一個防這個任性因為剛剛本席在臨時聽有提到高鐵難演屏東這個議題那本席知道部長上任之後也很積極在做這樣一個溝通那能不能藉這個機會請部長也很明確的告訴我們屏東的鄉親高鐵難演不是夢"},{"start":11498.278,"end":11521.058,"text":"好,感謝委員這麼的關心,其實長期您都在努力,包含我們的鄒村敏縣長,那這個部份交通部也有設定了,我們在今年底之前,我們會設定好我們所選擇的路線,在今年底會公布路線,那公布路線完之後,我們就會實際下去進行準備高鐵藍爺的整個該做的作業,我們都會來進行,這個部份沒有問題。"},{"start":11522.379,"end":11536.055,"text":"市長,我想除了這個高鐵的路線之外,那很重要的是一個六塊錯側站一個雙鐵共構這個部分,那這部分是不是可以加快啟程明年,讓屏東鄉親看得到這樣的一個動工的一個成果?"},{"start":11537.176,"end":11563.042,"text":"委員因為您都很關心而且您有特別有跟我提到這件事那我們希望在今年底之前或者是到明年能夠讓這個六塊錯的車站包含台鐵的這個高架立體化的部分可以趕快來進行因為我有到現場去看過跟楊局長一起到現場去看過周圍的這個都市計畫的部分跟土地的開發的部分其實屏東縣政府相當的努力"},{"start":11563.462,"end":11581.337,"text":"那個進度都已經做得非常的超前那我們認為說在交通網絡的部分高鐵的南延可能還需要一些時間但是台鐵的部分跟六塊錯的車站的部分或許我們可以先行所以我們是不是希望在明年中可以讓大家看到比較具體的進度"},{"start":11582.498,"end":11603.432,"text":"好那這邊再拜託部長除了加快這樣子一個啟程之外未來針對延伸到操作這一部分我想也是我們要努力的方向啦吼我們中間的鄉親大家怎麼跟他一台高鐵來跟我們的中間啦吼這對於我們未來西部的整個高鐵的發展我想是一個正面的一個報告委員我們一步一步來啦吼但是"},{"start":11603.752,"end":11630.731,"text":"你上次跟我講完之後我們有特別溝通我們會留違軌目前高鐵延伸到屏東的部分那我們還會留一個違軌讓它未來有再延伸的可能性這個部分我們會預留著我們一步一步來努力另外就針對屏南快速大陸還有高捷這個我們小港線到林邊這個案子我想本席也持續都有在追蹤那部長這部分是不是到目前為止有沒有照相關的期程在進行"},{"start":11631.271,"end":11631.951,"text":"平南快速道路的部分?"},{"start":11654.38,"end":11669.911,"text":"平南快速公路行政院在今年4月合併可言所以我們已經展開綜合規劃了綜合規劃在9月份的時候我們已經辦了這個起初的一個報告那起初報告綜合規劃完成了因為現在我們的作業綜合規劃跟環評我們會並行"},{"start":11672.453,"end":11701.416,"text":"中和規劃到期中預計在明年的這個3月份我們大概會完成這個期中的一個報告那期中報告在明年年中大概我們期中報告定案以後這個路線比較清楚我們會進行環境影響評估的第一階段的還縮書的作業那所以大概我們會因為他是要二階環評的所以會員報告就是中規跟環評我們會同時啟動只是說有一些部分的話可以重疊的這個期程我們會加速辦"},{"start":11701.676,"end":11719.267,"text":"在這邊還是要請部長跟局長託幫忙,因為之前我們4月份陳建元院長宣布的時候,我們聽到兩年要等工,120年要完工,這個期程真的要掌握一下,這是我們平台平台的一個救命路,真的要拜託一下,我們來努力加速。"},{"start":11720.148,"end":11742.161,"text":"那針對我們整個橫沖半島觀光產業我想最近的一些的包含消費包含美化路被倒入一些污名化的事情那我想對觀光業的衝擊相當的大那尤其我們屏東有兩個機場我覺得屏東的機場還有一個武力艇機場各個都沒辦法做一個航空的一個推廣我想這部分"},{"start":11742.581,"end":11742.601,"text":"請署長"},{"start":11764.012,"end":11780.547,"text":"謝謝委員指導因為墾丁算是我們國家一個非常重要的景區那這個部分我們已經跟這個墾丁國家公園還有這個我們的屏東縣政府一起來做這個秩序的整理那麼再把亮點再點亮"},{"start":11784.17,"end":11801.283,"text":"橫村以南平南地區觀光廊帶有幾個跟地方觀光圈做一些串接我們也會善用明年是正好橫村古城150周年的活動我們用活動來帶動"},{"start":11803.284,"end":11825.905,"text":"我們也希望能夠多留宿所以這邊的民宿的部分我們也特別會來加強以上簡單跟委員報告下我們在大鵬灣也是會做結合我想今年我們臺南建成400年我知道交通部跟觀光署也大力支持明年我們恆春建成150週年我想這個是一個很重要的歷史事件"},{"start":11826.385,"end":11826.405,"text":"臺灣媒體"},{"start":11843.715,"end":11843.875,"text":"徐富奎委員"},{"start":11873.53,"end":11882.719,"text":"接著有請我們陳淑月召委發言謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":11893.643,"end":11897.825,"text":"交通建設會關係地方經濟產業發展也關係民眾鄉親生活品質交通的便利性張化縣東南角田中二水區塊"},{"start":11917.761,"end":11936.49,"text":"路線就是比較不完善比較欠缺交通建設所以在這邊首先也要感謝交通部在106年11月17號的時候就合訂了東張道路藍岩段工程納入生活圈的道路計畫裡面然後也確定了補助的經費"},{"start":11937.851,"end":11941.373,"text":"當時合併的時候106年是衛明谷縣長任內經過了也6年多的時間目前東張道路藍岩段本來它的時程是預計今年10月要完工那看起來應該是會在過年左右就是農曆過年前"},{"start":11957.382,"end":11976.942,"text":"應該是可以完工通車的了所以即使在東張道路藍岩段新P工程在規劃定案之後呢那二水田中這邊的鄉親他們就一直有在關心就是說希望這個東張道路藍岩段未來完成到二水的時候從二水可以"},{"start":11977.362,"end":11977.782,"text":"．施政委員"},{"start":11993.374,"end":11993.754,"text":"立法院交通委員會"},{"start":12012.822,"end":12041.958,"text":"那很明確的就是在2020年11月9號當時的林交通部長那時候我們有下去考察那當然就是說當時的交通部也是支持說未來規劃能夠來銜接國道3號就是要用橋樑的方式可是這個路線當時應該還沒有很明確那在2022年10月26號當時那個王國采部長任內我們也有再次的去二水就是"},{"start":12043.959,"end":12071.777,"text":"那時候當然初步有一個方案就是這個張嵐大橋的一個方案可是這個方案當時我們對於彰化縣的鄉親的角度來說他們是希望能夠就這個張雲大橋的這個路線然後去銜接林內交流道這樣子可以讓我們二水的鄉親更便利然後在工程的這個經費上也是可以"},{"start":12072.297,"end":12072.638,"text":"對沒錯 現在在課堂當中"},{"start":12097.478,"end":12111.338,"text":"那我們在這個交通委員會考察之後那我們也看到了這個雲林縣的張縣長還有張化的王縣長都支持所以他們兩位縣長也大張旗鼓的開了記者會"},{"start":12113.281,"end":12116.784,"text":"對外宣誓,簽了意向書,共同推動國道3號增設林內交流道,讓彰化與雲林的生活圈更緊密,讓交通更便利這是站在彰化縣鄉親的角度"},{"start":12135.183,"end":12136.464,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12156.67,"end":12156.69,"text":"張嬅大橋"},{"start":12181.887,"end":12194.546,"text":"張宇大橋張宇目前應該是雲林那邊還在他們可以來申請做可行性研究正在做可行性研究那這個部分還在等待他們送過來目前是還沒有送過來"},{"start":12196.851,"end":12224.487,"text":"當然就是說對於地方的一個發展讓這個生活圈更緊密我們當然就是說對這個南投縣政府還有地方他們民意代表的爭取這個張嵐大橋銜接這個南雲交流道我們也都支持也都樂觀其成那我們二水鄉親更期盼的是我們希望更能夠更便利的這個距離更近的這樣子的一個張雲大橋銜接林內交流道的"},{"start":12225.267,"end":12243.597,"text":"的建設規劃,那部長是不是可以支持?是,這個我們都支持,但是一個是張雲的部分,我們在等待雲林縣政府他們的可行性研究的部分,那另外張南大橋的部分,我們也同意要補助他的這個可行性研究的這個經費,那我們要等待這個南投縣政府那邊提上來給我們。"},{"start":12244.597,"end":12267.32,"text":"是好那現在就是說有關這個章雲大橋偵測理內交流道這樣子的一個地方期盼的一個交通建設目前程序就是在地方政府還在還沒有提出可行性研究的委員關心了很久這個部分他們也正在做可行性研究我們就等待他做可行性研究跟評估出來之後我們再來做討論"},{"start":12267.841,"end":12287.612,"text":"是,那我們可以請交通部也主動關心一下嗎?沒有問題,我們就請高工局直接去跟雲林縣政府去督促一下,或者是去了解一下他的進度做到哪裡了。是,好,希望就是說我們這樣子的地方,鄉親的一個期盼能夠看到這個進度。是,是,好。"},{"start":12288.072,"end":12309.359,"text":"那接下來本席也來關心一下這個假車牌的狀況因為我們也看到就是說這個國內假車牌真的是非常的猖獗而且他這個件數是有持續增加的這樣子的一個趨勢那不曉得說部長有去了解過說為什麼會有這樣子的一個趨勢"},{"start":12311.573,"end":12331.122,"text":"一方面他可能購買的方面比較容易啦網路上其實只要上網去買在過去很容易就買得到這是個問題那另外就是說很像是被調扣車牌的人註銷車牌的人不少那被註銷他又想要用那台車他就會上網去買這個假車牌來使用"},{"start":12334.294,"end":12348.213,"text":"假車牌的猖獗對於地方基層的警力他們的執法壓力也非常的大因為我們看到最近10月15號才又發生了一件假車牌車輛拒檢逃逸而且在"},{"start":12348.733,"end":12354.978,"text":"對於警方或者是說對於這個路過的駕駛可能也是會被波及有這個安全的一個問題所以我們也是希望就是說在這個部分我們是不是有更積極的這種防偽的一些積極的作為"},{"start":12371.286,"end":12374.949,"text":"車牌防偽機制功能設計多道防偽功能明年度加強防偽功能"},{"start":12392.109,"end":12393.49,"text":"車牌是屬於汽車所有人的處罰"},{"start":12412.071,"end":12435.945,"text":"是 那我們有可能就是說改由從人不從車的這種角度嗎這個目前包括因為假車牌的部分的話它涉及違反這個行政法的道路交通管理處罰條例還有刑法的部分那包括這一個法務部跟這個交通部其實我們都有在研議就是說整個要怎麼樣加重處罰包括就是說也有提到就是說可能要做相關的一個末路車輛的一個研議"},{"start":12437.239,"end":12438.2,"text":"接下來邀請林德福委員質詢"},{"start":12472.954,"end":12480.956,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請陳部長還有臺北市協運局的陳副局長新北的王副局長協運局陳部長是委員好陳夕要請教"},{"start":12501.66,"end":12515.939,"text":"本期是關心中和光復線的捷運整個規劃進度這條路是中永和鄉親都非常支持而且不分朝野黨派都支持興建它是從中和秀樑橋頭"},{"start":12517.681,"end":12544.039,"text":"一直拉拉到大巨蛋那裡其實可以解決很多問題其實本席在今年年初那時候也召開過一個協調會結果交通部也支持新北市捷運局也支持臺北市捷運局也支持解決就是當地交通阻塞的問題因為每天上下班那裡都塞得很嚴重"},{"start":12547.282,"end":12565.823,"text":"本期是希望說2025年這個臺北市決定這個建設的整體網路評估未來是送到交通部這個核准備查時希望交通部長陳部長能夠全力支持來協助同一列路優先的這個路網"},{"start":12567.585,"end":12587.996,"text":"讓綜合公務線及早啟動可行性研究是報告委員這個案子已經核准被查這個沒有問題我們也都支持那目前的可行性研究我想新北還是臺北市政府他們應該都已經在發包新北市新北市可行性研究也都已經在發包的作業當中因為當地確實實篩的很嚴重發包的前置作業當中"},{"start":12589.997,"end":12610.522,"text":"好不好陳部長另外第二個問題就是剛剛我們的召委也特別提到就是懸掛假車牌的問題陳處不窮這幾天新聞看到警方在查及假車牌案件本席認為以現行的法令使用假車牌的處罰太輕"},{"start":12612.182,"end":12613.604,"text":"加重的方向我們已經在研議但是時間上大概多久有辦法說明"},{"start":12628.931,"end":12655.876,"text":"這個部分的話就是在部裡面的話就是已經在進行的我想部的這個草案的話我會盡快我是希望盡快這個包括酒駕零容忍也是全體這個人民的一個共識自從立法這個立法院要求設立酒駕雷患公佈姓名的專區後終於讓外界知道酒駕連續患真的是層出不窮"},{"start":12657.256,"end":12664.689,"text":"一而再再而三因為酒駕以後甚至於沒有駕照開車經交通部統計10年內第三次酒駕累患或"},{"start":12671.911,"end":12700.416,"text":"據測累犯這個駕照無效的人數合計有19000多人那各界呼籲說酒駕累犯要沒收車輛其實跟那個假車牌一樣我認為說在最短時間這個才可以你把他車輛沒錄我認為那是最佳的一個做法他們才會怕不然的話你看酒駕累犯到最後一些無辜受害者經常會發生部長你什麼看法"},{"start":12701.394,"end":12726.79,"text":"報告委員您所說的這個方向 剛好也是我們正在演繹的方向我是認為 酒駕的累犯確實是應該要再更加重要立竿見影 要趕快把它做好去年已經有加重過一次那另外您剛剛在垂詢的這個 有關於這個假車牌的部分這個加重刑責的那個罰則的部分我們大概在3個月之內可以完成我是認為越快越好 那個要是能夠盡快也是功德一件"},{"start":12730.012,"end":12744.803,"text":"國際旅客來臺今年1月剛破500萬人次今年1月到現在但是今年本來有差不多1000萬的目標恐怕難以達成今年出國的人數已經突破1000萬"},{"start":12746.644,"end":12754.429,"text":"那交通部觀光署在2021年公布臺灣觀光邁向2025的方案報告預估2025年來臺旅客可達到1186萬之間就是明年那請問陳部長2025年國際來臺觀光人數是否會重新設定目標多少如果這個不計算大陸觀光客來臺國際來臺觀光的人數目標交通部大概你們會設定多少"},{"start":12776.544,"end":12776.676,"text":"本集完"},{"start":12777.128,"end":12805.327,"text":"報告員我們今年所看到到目前為止的數字就很接近您剛剛所說的不加計對岸來台的大概就是這個數字那到年底我們的目標當然還是1000萬但是或許不容易達到那我們會看到時候達到的狀況到什麼地方那我跟委員報告如果要說明年明年我們會比較務實一點不要去加計原本對岸會來台的期望這個部分我們期望只可能放低一點"},{"start":12807.268,"end":12807.288,"text":"對啦"},{"start":12823.348,"end":12838.593,"text":"最後一個議題因為機場服務會可以強化整個機場的建設與淘機公司財務的體質那機場服務會半數收入都同時也投入觀光發展基金媒體報導這個桃園機場公司將評估檢討收費對此交通部是不是會考慮在2025年調漲機場的一個服務費"},{"start":12849.336,"end":12872.123,"text":"報告委員機場的服務費目前是500塊那確實我們因為第三航廈正在蓋而且我們的第三跑道也正要努力來蓋的過程當中對於這個淘機來講他們的這個財務的狀況確實是負擔相當相當重所以社會上有這樣子的討論而且大家有討論到說相當的多人在使用這個機場那出國的人數也不少"},{"start":12873.084,"end":12888.056,"text":"我們希望臺灣的觀光能夠做得更好因為過去的機場服務會像委員您剛剛所說的有一部分的經費其實是來益助在臺灣的觀光業的發展那這個部分對臺灣觀光業也很重要那所以目前確實是社會上有這樣的討論那我想淘機也針對他們自己的財務的狀況也應該有做類似這樣的評估"},{"start":12893.581,"end":12908.443,"text":"因為你能夠出國其實加個幾百塊我認為大體多數人會支持那你服務做得更落實更好而且講實在話我們很多觀光地區需要加強為什麼因為很多人來過以後認為說"},{"start":12910.245,"end":12910.345,"text":"臨登府委員資訊"},{"start":12937.655,"end":12947.225,"text":"本席在這邊先做一下宣告那早上的會議在李昆城委員質詢之後我們中午休息那接下來邀請黃建斌委員質詢謝謝主席主席我們請部長請陳部長"},{"start":12965.677,"end":12994.515,"text":"部長好 委員好部長在執行之前必須為我們的這個公路局還有這個台鐵的效率表示讚賞本期在禮拜一在委員會執行這個南迴災害的時候今天就派員到現場窺看大陣仗的去看那民眾感受非常的強烈就是說今天要好這個要讚賞不過這邊好像本期辦公室都沒有收到通知這個部分是不是"},{"start":12996.383,"end":13004.786,"text":"要,其實我也會要求我們的各局署,未來所有的會刊在地方的時候,因為都跟區域的立委都相當的有關,都應該要通知,這個必須要通知。"},{"start":13019.531,"end":13021.313,"text":"臺東交通很重要,臺東未來鐵公路中斷時要力拼三個小時就要疏通,我們整個花東輸運計畫的SOP具體是什麼?"},{"start":13040.035,"end":13066.036,"text":"具體的如果您要文字內容我們可以提供給委員但是我們是希望三個小時之內例如說如果是蘇花的那一段中段的時候我們趕快啟動南回就是臺東的部分南回的不管是公路運輸也好或者鐵道運輸在上上一次的這個中段的過程當中我們就馬上來啟動那啟動他的火車不只是到運送到西部我們還會拜託高鐵配合配合台鐵的班次到達之後怎麼樣在"},{"start":13066.916,"end":13089.758,"text":"在做西部的輸運這是一個那再來空運的部分我們會馬上加強上來就是說當它一中斷我們三個小時之內趕快調派飛機去拜託航空公司處理飛機的部分但是船運的部分其實會速度比較慢因為現在我們就是靠新台馬輪那大概要一兩天的時間才有辦法過來這個是比較後面但是我們未來希望能夠建立藍色公路如果假使我們平常時就有船運在跑"},{"start":13090.379,"end":13119.184,"text":"那未來如果發生陸運的狀況的時候部長非常好陸海工都考慮到了非常的完善不過部長其實在這一次山坡和颱風的時候你的SOP完全沒有效果就是在上個禮拜而已是因為你連任的豪宇整個南迴你講到南迴部分南迴公路第一個預防性的封路就是新香港到大武這一段整個封路陸運公路不行然後台鐵部分因為大水沖刷火車不行"},{"start":13119.804,"end":13120.364,"text":"臺東是北中南東完全被隔絕"},{"start":13137.335,"end":13154.325,"text":"我們其實臺東仰賴就是鐵公路我們臺東才會發那個飛機像本席有遇到飛機飛到臺東的上空就原路折返然後本席必須再到臺北坐高鐵到高雄如果晚上沒車要請人到高雄接駁到臺東這個是臺東目前"},{"start":13157.222,"end":13158.343,"text":"臺風是比較特殊的狀況臺風我剛才在講的海跟不可能"},{"start":13174.042,"end":13198.968,"text":"部長這是你災害的SOP對但是實際上委員颱風正在走的那個過程當中任何SOP都沒有用而且當時是全國在放假的狀況底下我不可能恢復空運跟海運這是必然的那空運的部分跟委員報告其實我們的南回公路它的強度算是蠻強的抗災強度蠻強所以在當時您的狀況是還有辦法走公路回到台東"},{"start":13199.488,"end":13222.11,"text":"委員長我是在颱風前回去在颱風的時候跟委員報告有些時間是停的部長針對這一個部分未來運營也希望兩週內會將SOP送到本席辦公室好不好接下來我們要跟討論公路的部分就是台九縣關於我們交通部支持台九縣的關於本席非常感謝"},{"start":13224.572,"end":13226.175,"text":"民眾對於道路的拓寬一直有爭議"},{"start":13235.715,"end":13262.367,"text":"臺九縣的拓寬上面是不是請局長跟國務委員報告我了解因為道路的拓寬會涉及到房屋的拆遷那大概就是說在臺東有一些路段的部分大概民眾還是希望就是說這個寬度不要那麼寬然後可以減少拆遷那這個部分我想我們當然也有在做相關的溝通只是說因為整段的臺九縣從花蓮到臺東"},{"start":13265.369,"end":13292.35,"text":"確實當初的一個規劃設計是從30米寬度來做相關的規劃還是要聽取地方的意見因為其實我這邊補充一下當時我們的目前我們現在的總統賴清德總統在當時當行政院議長的時候推動了地方創生地方創生的精神是什麼適地適用那我們講到的這個比如說粵美啊瑞豐啊這些地段啊他是長期形成的一個聚落啦那因為你為了要拖"},{"start":13293.467,"end":13317.193,"text":"民眾都支持拓寬一次要拉到30公尺他整個地形地方完全改變甚至影響到民生的問題這部分我們本席要代表當地的居民來跟部裡面這邊來反映我想現在很強調我們公共的治理是公民參與這件事情那不是過去由上而下應該是聽取地方的意見來做這樣的調整那這部分是不是"},{"start":13317.853,"end":13318.493,"text":"接下來邀請李坤澄委員質詢"},{"start":13355.043,"end":13356.586,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請陳部長"},{"start":13367.805,"end":13388.635,"text":"本席今天就是要來爭取一下三重區的交通建設我們賴總統還有宣誓大概除了現在在執行中的特別預算之外我們大概之後不會再用特別預算的方式來編列一些比如說軌道建設或是其他的一些建設等等"},{"start":13389.275,"end":13390.436,"text":"明年度的預算從1190億增加到1579億成長率是32%高出來這麼多的預算其實很多都是屬於這個"},{"start":13408.875,"end":13409.295,"text":"臺北北環南環新北桃園"},{"start":13438.455,"end":13455.627,"text":"結運航空城的這個結運還有臺中的這個藍線高雄的這個黃線這些加起來這些預算加起來這個大概會越來越高 越來越高那所以說這個在去在明年的計畫是編了大概74億那未來還要編1900多億那我就請問一下"},{"start":13460.791,"end":13473.073,"text":"那如果說我們不用這個特別預算來因應的話那接下來這個是屬於這個捷運軌道建設高峰期這些錢哪裡來?那夠不夠?會不會排擠到你們交通部的其他的預算?"},{"start":13474.786,"end":13492.663,"text":"這個部分我們也會努力來編列啦重點是只要立法院如果同意或者是支持的話其實我覺得預算的編列應該是還好主計總處也會協助我們來做這方面的編列因為我也問過主計總處啦那他其實也是有提到就是說那如果說本來是屬於特別預算的部分現在編入到這一個年度預算"},{"start":13493.363,"end":13498.711,"text":"這的確會有排擠的一些效應應該多少會有那我現在講到說這個停車場那停車場這個計畫本來是屬於前瞻的這個計畫那這個前瞻的計畫本來你們是編了這個多少"},{"start":13506.417,"end":13525.32,"text":"編了大概是200億後來都增加60億那現在我也一直跟我們這個城區長也有跟他提出來就是說我們三重區的一些需求就是說這個之前在我們三重有蓋了這個六座停車場如果沒有這個前瞻計畫的這個特別預算支持大概很難蓋下去"},{"start":13525.9,"end":13526.42,"text":"五個地下停車場需要中央"},{"start":13543.367,"end":13564.043,"text":"這個全部的需要中央補助預算就高達17億啦就高達17億那我請教一下那現在屬於這個前瞻預算的這個停車場預算已經用完了嘛這個已經本來是200億或增加60億到260億已經用完了那現在這個交通部有個計畫再跟行政院來爭取多了60億那這60億到底行政院有沒有同意要給"},{"start":13565.166,"end":13580.462,"text":"目前的進度是跟各位報告我們在增加60億這個部分的話交通部已經在7月份已經報這一個行政院那行政院現在交國發會國發會再會整各部會的一個意見那我想我們會持續追蹤"},{"start":13582.563,"end":13602.093,"text":"其實委員你相當關心這個議題啦行政院的部分你也有跟他們講過所以我想行政院的態度應該會朝向正面我們希望他們朝向正面但目前程序上是還沒有走過沒錯我是希望說你們有沒有一個期限就是說大概哪時候可以行政院這方面大概哪時候可以通過這60億的多了這60億來蓋地下停車場"},{"start":13605.354,"end":13606.716,"text":"臺灣有地下停車場需求"},{"start":13623.336,"end":13640.273,"text":"那你一旦這個屬於前瞻預算的停車場部分你用完了那你們增加60億那我們是希望說能夠爭取就是盡量爭取但是期限也要盡快把它完成但是我也發現到說你們未來對於這個每個停車場的補助大概就是2億為上限"},{"start":13646.18,"end":13670.879,"text":"其實我們大概跟行政院報61是因為說其實全國各縣市的需要中央補助的這個經費我們大概有概估了那停車場的補助基本上其實是扣掉了自償率因為停車場將來會有收費收入扣掉自償率以後依各縣市政府的財力等級去這一個補助我們現在其實也並沒有一個兩億元上限的一個選擇他其實有一定的公式"},{"start":13672.5,"end":13672.86,"text":"五華國小應該確定會補助了嗎?"},{"start":13703.057,"end":13703.798,"text":"新谷國小已經在蓋了"},{"start":13724.132,"end":13724.393,"text":"李崑成委員"},{"start":13751.393,"end":13752.314,"text":"現在休息下午兩點繼續開會"},{"start":13770.306,"end":13770.466,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13791.208,"end":13791.368,"text":"主席"},{"start":19798.766,"end":19798.966,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":19820.762,"end":19845.264,"text":"部長好來自台中也經過台中民意的一個洗禮過所以你更了解我們全國的路網那所以我們實質來討論我們自己的家台中2019年的時候呢那麼交通部長林佳龍部長當時他也非常的關心所以他公開的承諾也就是連結苗栗、三義、高蘭、台中、奧栗"},{"start":19846.665,"end":19847.125,"text":"實驗了三個部長："},{"start":19867.572,"end":19867.872,"text":"麥克風請壓下去 時間暫停"},{"start":19894.205,"end":19911.819,"text":"這個對地方的觀光來講很重要進度的部分我請台鐵來跟您報告好請跟委員報告現在我們正在擬定董事長也跟我去看過對我看過三次對我們就依據先前我們去會刊的一個方式我們現在在報部程序"},{"start":19912.179,"end":19912.719,"text":"臺中地區大眾捷運系統整體入網的評估計畫"},{"start":19938.312,"end":19943.196,"text":"重德豐原縣經過人潮密集和學區,整體效應非常大,請問部長,我們什麼時候要核定補助地方的經費?你們什麼時候啟動可行性評估?"},{"start":19961.972,"end":19989.89,"text":"那第三個議題也就是我一定要充分給你建議一定要延伸到封園隔壁就是神崗對我們社交交流都一定要延伸到神崗來請做說明這三點好跟委員報告這條線的這個可行性研究的這個核定對我們來講經費的部分我們有跟臺中市政府那邊有溝通過他們目前的想法是比較高但是我們因為有一定的計算公式依我們的計算公式大概是1500萬左右"},{"start":19992.406,"end":20018.023,"text":"一千五百萬左右那中央補助的比例差不多一千一百萬左右但是台中市政府跟我們說現在發包不太容易那我們會協助他來做發包可行性研究的部分我們會趕快來做一定要跟地方好好溝通趕快去把它完成以完成為目標我們這兩天有跟台中市政府的相關單位有去溝通了那我們要這個經費呢你暫定了嗎您是說這個可言的部分嗎可言已經說了"},{"start":20020.595,"end":20044.943,"text":"那預算的部分要等他可行可言出來我們就依照要高額的補助我們台中因為台中不斷那接下來一個議題崇德這個豐原縣要延伸到這個神崗因為他在隔壁而已這個您積極在爭取因為他交流到對我覺得這個部分可以在可言的過程當中我們跟台中市政府來溝通一定要納入把這個部分把它納入來討論"},{"start":20045.583,"end":20045.803,"text":"臺中山海環線卡關10年"},{"start":20066.243,"end":20086.497,"text":"在交通委員會本席也跟你的次長討論過也就是我們修正為三個指向三個指向在海線以及山線的部分那麼我們現在臺中市政府積極在研議積極在修正依照你們的指示所以我們盡快會送上來送上來也承諾要盡快去審核核定我們的目標也就是趕快執行那接下來就是甲貨線"},{"start":20094.042,"end":20094.483,"text":"假貨線目前的進度"},{"start":20101.081,"end":20122.575,"text":"三個指向其他兩個指向您應該都很清楚在進度上您都有問題假後線是一個新增的路線那新增的路線有兩個可能性就是第一個可能性由台鐵他們去研議有沒有這個需求性有需求性或許台鐵可以做那第二個可能性其實要由地方政府來研議如果地方政府他們研議有可能性可以由地方來贏"},{"start":20124.056,"end":20126.998,"text":"委員您在要求的部分我們有理解到您的要求理解到是要不要積極去推動"},{"start":20148.639,"end":20173.252,"text":"我剛有說過因為它過去不是一條原本就有的鐵道它是新增的鐵道那新增的鐵道我們會由台鐵去研議有沒有這個需求有這個需求我們大概會做不是如此的回答本席不同意因為這已經是由行政院合併將這一條綠線拆成三項指向所以這是既定政策務必要去執行本席告訴你"},{"start":20173.903,"end":20192.668,"text":"我們也希望能夠往前推動啦其實當時我在擔任議員的時候你自己本身也一直講了很多次積極追蹤進度一定要推動好不好認同嗎進度的部分我來了解沒問題最後一個議題也就是我們國道四號清水道風源段"},{"start":20193.652,"end":20209.671,"text":"我們當時2001年的時候你後風交流道設置西入東出哪有一個建設只做一半你的東入西出沒有害了我們整個我們每一天都在那邊塞車"},{"start":20211.033,"end":20211.073,"text":"主席"},{"start":20231.992,"end":20232.332,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20260.531,"end":20270.8,"text":"10年前那個地方的交通量可能還沒有到達那個程度那現在10年後確實那個地方開始有在塞車了所以有這樣的需求我們來協助看地方政府的部分"},{"start":20275.595,"end":20295.288,"text":"你趕快協助我們務必要做你已經說了人口增加到這個地方沒有問題委員但是這個必須要地方政府來提出我們地方政府提出你給我們撥走那個可行性評估當然講清楚市府要提出我們地方政府提出可行性評估你們來補助你同意補助嗎我們趕快會提出可行性評估的部分由地方自籌"},{"start":20303.622,"end":20316.45,"text":"這次你中央你中央當時只有做半套啊那頂多是200萬左右的經費啊你幫我導著你當時你一定有預期效果"},{"start":20317.935,"end":20325.6,"text":"你只有做半套當然是你的責任來可行性評估我們台中市政府等一下等一下可行性評估趕快提出來因為這是面臨目前我們社會所需好不好我們市府提出你來補助好不好部長等一下我們也請你回來後面的規劃設計交通部會來協助但是過去可能沒有的案例沒有你要照程序可行性評估對不對"},{"start":20347.506,"end":20364.293,"text":"部長不是錢的問題啊對啊錢是問題啊我也很想協助對但是要看他們的規定上可不可以這是第一個當然可以因為你做半套地方政府的部分我們盡量來協助我們地方政府來提出你來補助好不好因為目前需要這個方式嘛部長你請你回答我"},{"start":20369.427,"end":20387.893,"text":"你請你回答我中央政府只做砸到做一邊導致目前我們這樣子的擁擠沒有理由不解決我們所以本席具體建議可行性評估由台中市政府提出你們來補助我們趕快言你不要再脫頭了我一年要增加多少人口"},{"start":20389.113,"end":20396.657,"text":"我們來討論有沒有這樣的可能性不是討論可能性你要答應我我希望朝這個方向所以要趕快來努力要不然你做半套導致我們擠得這麼嚴重尤其我們的北端淡柱這個區塊風源是人口數急劇增加最多"},{"start":20406.783,"end":20411.085,"text":"臺中市政府提出可行性評估的方案上來你來補助好不好好 謝謝謝謝楊瓊瑜委員接下來邀請圖全級委員質詢"},{"start":20443.845,"end":20444.066,"text":"陳世凱陳部長"},{"start":20455.438,"end":20483.281,"text":"好部長在上週總之學的時候本席有提出針對我們國道1號羊頭道路拓寬工程那時候也有請我們院長跟部長來到我們現場去勘查會刊那我們也收到回文也感謝我們卓院長列入承諾事項那請問這部分有沒有辦法一個月內安排一下到我們陽梅那因為陽梅香氣真的很期盼大家去來現場會刊這個很重大的工程"},{"start":20484.975,"end":20500.444,"text":"委員長的部分我沒辦法幫他承諾但是我的部分我其實最近上個禮拜也去桃園這個禮拜也去桃園那下一週或下下週我再盡量安排時間如果時間上可以的話我盡量到現場去看我們很關心楊梅的那個交流道的問題"},{"start":20502.965,"end":20520.335,"text":"休息站的部分有沒有移動的問題我們先現場看一下那也感謝部長表示對這個案子部長也有在研究那也希望因為主要現在就是南路閘道的部分要撤銷這個休息站避免到時候有二次徵收的問題我們也希望這個羊頭"},{"start":20522.236,"end":20549.465,"text":"道路拓寬工程能夠跟我們北出南路閘道一次來一起納入一起來施作好避免這二次徵收跟施工後造成地方很大的困擾是好好這部分來請我們部長再盡量多幫忙好還有我們針對我們國道1號好國道1號楊梅交流道好國道1號楊梅交流道他這個北出的閘道因為現在"},{"start":20550.845,"end":20576.3,"text":"常常衍生很多交通的問題因為這個陽梅交流道北出閘道它現在有兩個閘道都是銜接台一線那常常往埔心方向的地方它鄰近台一線跟裕城路口所以它這個路口反應的時間很短因為它大概只有300公尺所以用路人常常在這邊都反應不急常常車子也壓到曹化線而且"},{"start":20576.86,"end":20597.856,"text":"因為他右邊玉城路那邊是陽梅體育園區所以很多的車輛都是右轉要到玉城路跟陽梅體育園區又跟我們縱貫路直行然後現在又跟我們另一個閘道往埔心方向常常在那邊車流造成大的衝突所以後來我們有研議桃園市府希望"},{"start":20598.656,"end":20600.016,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20619.062,"end":20622.384,"text":"明年會來辦理因為他必須要經過規劃跟設計他跟地方在民意來做規劃應該明年內可以把它做起來"},{"start":20638.405,"end":20662.118,"text":"就是是整個做好是嗎對對對連規劃到施工完成應該是那就希望因為這個影響很久而且這部分居然提出來大家要配合地方因為他的交通改善必須配合地方交通局對對因為這個市府他已經提出了說等高工局說已經交辦北分局可是目前都還沒有答覆有有我們有在作業中"},{"start":20662.478,"end":20683.812,"text":"好這部分盡快能夠解釋真的目前來講研議是可以解決我們這邊交通擁捨而且常常造成交通意外的狀況還有另外一個我們國道1號幼師交流道就是我們陽梅幼師工業區跟幼師擴大工業區那個交流道那國道1號幼師交流道"},{"start":20684.272,"end":20709.79,"text":"他的南出的閘道現在因為南出右轉的閘道往新屋方向就是青年路跟我們高思路他形成一個大型的路口那現在常常也是發生交通擁捨交通意外那現在本身交通局是用號字管制可是現在還是沒有辦法改善反而使這個南出的閘道造成回堵"},{"start":20710.39,"end":20737.255,"text":"那目前我們也 地方也演繹市府也演繹就是說針對高工局用地的範圍內把南向右轉的閘道盡量再靠右移讓他這個右轉的閘道跟高思路可以做成一個斜交路口避免車子出來要左轉高思路又跟青年路直行的車輛又造成衝突所以他這一部分"},{"start":20738.749,"end":20763.032,"text":"我相信這個部份應該交通部高工局應該都很清楚因為這個已經困擾地方非常非常多年然後一直找不到一個方案然後目前研議出來這個方案看起來應該是可以解決我們左轉高思路跟青年路車輛衝突也能夠讓我們高速公路南下出來陽梅右思交流道這部分交通讓它順暢"},{"start":20764.661,"end":20786.046,"text":"基本上跟委員報告就是說這個又是交道其實我們已經改過改過兩三次了對啊但是這次裡面最後的一個結果的話就因為要地方配合所以他需要他的一個同意才可以來再往外去擴充那這個部分的話那個桃園市政府交通局他們原則上是同意這個部分我們會會來盡快來辦設計然後做一個調整"},{"start":20788.326,"end":20814.569,"text":"對 因為我剛剛為什麼講它是右市工業區跟右市擴大工業區這個上班的人潮非常非常多的車流量非常的大然後而且一直處理很久一直沒有辦法處理那現在交通局跟地方大家協調發現就是因為左轉高市路的車輛就是右車交通道出來右轉要左轉進去高市路的車輛跟青年路的車輛常常在那邊"},{"start":20815.33,"end":20816.051,"text":"那這部分 這部分"},{"start":20837.268,"end":20855.548,"text":"據我們了解高工局也已經交辦北分局那我們今天提出來就是希望能夠盡快來處理地方政府要同意的話地方政府要同意他同意我們就會來做好就是地方政府有提出來那但是他現在還沒給我們同意嗎我們有一個設計方案設計方案要提出來給他們他們再做確認就好了"},{"start":20858.291,"end":20873.803,"text":"好請部長跟局長這部分盡快幫我們處理因為現在因為這部分市府提出來就是希望我們盡快來完成所以希望本席在這邊催促我們來盡快把它規劃好趕快給他們一個方案好謝謝好謝謝圖軒吉委員接下來邀請何新淳委員質詢"},{"start":20886.636,"end":20889.102,"text":"好 謝謝昭葦 蘇瑞委員 我們請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":20896.718,"end":20923.008,"text":"部長好委員好我們台中人我們來關心台中的機場問題好不好機場在李部長的時代我還特地邀他去看了一下我們台中機場那也還在要求台中機場能夠再進一步的擴大擴建那甚至要加強他的軟液體設施還有其他的配套交通聯外道路還有聯外交通等等問題"},{"start":20924.308,"end":20934.114,"text":"本來我們還積極在爭取那之前我們的這個華航的子公司虎航還曾經大外宣說來7月我們台中日航來日本韓國要熱鬧的開航那我們台中的中部人很挺我們都說來台中為台中處理這是很方便的一件事所以我們一直在積極要求"},{"start":20950.144,"end":20972.33,"text":"臺中的清泉崗機場我們希望能夠努力的恢復到疫情前的國際航線那呢民航局跟航空公司跟我們講說需要時間我們也願意給時間那現在奇怪了我們呢好不容易等到今年7月暑假有臺中飛日本有臺中飛東京有臺中飛韓國釜山結果部長你知道嗎沒有任何預警"},{"start":20979.889,"end":20985.083,"text":"現在虎航把所有從台中出發的航點通通卡掉"},{"start":20986.198,"end":21011.251,"text":"現在是0你知道嗎在網路上多少中部的網友中部的民眾非常的失望非常的不解我不知道為什麼我們這麼努力的要求臺中的清泉江機場希望呢我們的航空公司希望呢我們的航線增加希望我們的航班增加結果反而是倒退了部長你知道嗎"},{"start":21012.623,"end":21039.045,"text":"報告委員這一點我知道這幾年你一直在努力機場的建置要更好一點那機場的建置也確實變得更好不過硬體建設之外對民眾來講影響最大是航線那航線過去虎航確實也爭取到了成田民古屋那澳門甚至是釜山的這個包機我知道他當時申請的包機像釜山他是申請7到8月那8月過後就沒有了沒有部長當時候呢在"},{"start":21041.627,"end":21067.693,"text":"李孟業部長時代我們就曾經要求民航局跟機場公司跟我們虎航或者是其他航空公司也好我們都希望是從包機改為定期航班民航局不給我們正確的資訊也沒給我們正面的回應你說他是包機那我還要求說除了包機之外我希望從包機改成是定點航班"},{"start":21068.683,"end":21085.793,"text":"是阿 結果你全部把我取消掉這個部份我們也會去要求虎航他們針對這個航線的部份看可不可以再更積極我覺得這個部份不是叫虎航要積極我們民航局也要積極因為臺中航空站我們青天橋機場是我們民航局的我請局長何局長"},{"start":21087.817,"end":21107.679,"text":"跟委員報告這4條航線確實昨天前幾天我有跟虎航講就是說這個部分如果是包機其實在飛之前應該講清楚那如果是這個定期的部分那如果說申請上你不能延續也要講清楚那這個部分呢在這個成田民古屋的部分虎航通通沒有講局長"},{"start":21108.86,"end":21130.959,"text":"之前我也在這個地方也是在交通委員會我也要求過你我希望民航局可以協助積極協助我們是要增加航線我們增加航班你知道嗎你今天跟我講包機我說我希望可以從包機再改為定期航班你之前也曾經允諾我要盡全力來協助"},{"start":21132.861,"end":21160.939,"text":"這個話有緣在耳還沒多久結果馬上就都取消我跟你講如果今天他是賠錢的線沒人的線你給我取消我還覺得我們還要再努力你知道我調出資料來這是你們給我的資料台中的全航線的載客率是破八成尤其虎航飛東京名古屋都高達九成二台中是黃金航線是黃金航線"},{"start":21162.34,"end":21180.41,"text":"跟委員報告齁其實在台中的部分其實像新宇的部分他也要即將飛航沖繩那真航空也會飛航空你不要跟我扯新宇阿新宇是大家的奴隸之下我該給你肯定我之前也有給你鼓鼓掌阿可是你不可以跟我說來了一個新宇然後其他的通通再見阿"},{"start":21180.93,"end":21182.331,"text":"怎麼又蹦出了一個飛機故障的一個說法我覺得莫名其妙欸真的莫名其妙欸"},{"start":21201.977,"end":21209.483,"text":"跟委員報告他航線的調整這部分我們會再來要求你知道嗎火航現在要上市櫃他還跟我們說他第三季營收創新高他要拼上市你現在跟我說他因為一架飛機故障所以他要取消台中航空站的三個航點"},{"start":21220.35,"end":21242.408,"text":"各位我再說明清楚其實飛機故障是對於他航線的安排我們會再要求不過他的運能的調整我們這個會再來要求報告委員其實我覺得虎航當時拿到這個航線也進來台中機場我們就希望他繼續在台中機場那整個過程沒有跟我們講說他是包機的狀況這一點我是覺得需要檢討那另外針對虎航他來了"},{"start":21244.81,"end":21257.577,"text":"那沒有多久又走了這件事我們也會跟虎航來溝通這樣的做法其實未來我們並不歡迎部長你接下來你自己看高雄的航線一條一條開臺中的航線一條一條關現在是你捏部長你是臺中人捏你對我們中部的鄉親如何交代你知道嗎包括連澳門都關了"},{"start":21268.863,"end":21296.456,"text":"交通部會來努力這個方面澳門的部分他1月份明年的1月份會來恢復明年的1月份他澳門就會來恢復跟委員報告那這個部分除了中央要努力其實我也當過地方的議員當時在林佳龍市長任內我跟林佳龍的市府也努力爭取了好幾條航線在台中飛所以地方的觀光局或者地方的市政府如果願意努力來爭取的話我認為成效也會不錯不過交通部不會卸責交通部該做委員在要求我們就努力來爭取"},{"start":21297.136,"end":21317.123,"text":"中央地方要合作我之前都要求過很多次你跟我說這個虎航請民航局請交通部請華航好好的去跟我解釋清楚虎航為什麼做這樣的決定虎航的營收載客率創新高"},{"start":21318.513,"end":21345.119,"text":"他還大剌剌的董事長大剌剌的上節目上專訪說他兩個豪賭說這個華航也支持虎航是正確的選擇我都要說是因為犧牲掉我們台中人的權益中部人的權益去成就華航的兩個豪賭跟正確的選擇嗎部長我們拜託這個呃華航的董事長齁因為虎航也是華航管轄啦齁是不是可以要求一下請虎航的部分"},{"start":21346.461,"end":21371.129,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下那個虎航確實是有一架飛機要地停一年因為是現在缺工缺料發動機的問題不過他這個取消的部分我回去我會所以飛機飛機故障缺了飛機缺工缺料所以就從我台中先砍不是不是他現在因為調度出問題所以我們回去你說這個我不能接受啊那第一個沒有事先說明第二個你要砍就砍台中的航點航線"},{"start":21381.41,"end":21400.645,"text":"我敢跟你說中部的中部的那個搭乘的這個客運量是豐沛的喔是高的喔是多的喔需求是高的喔大家很期待能夠從台中飛出去耶我以為我們盡量來爭取更多的半根航線在這個台中機場來起飛"},{"start":21409.025,"end":21436.408,"text":"我再請部長拜託我希望我未來最近都能夠看得到是增加航線不要再給我減少航線不要沒有任何理由沒有任何說明就砍掉航線砍掉航班是民航局要盡責吧航權是民航局跟航空公司要共同努力去談的啊"},{"start":21438.25,"end":21449.824,"text":"臺中市是有需求的機場臺中的機場是有需求的所以這個部分我們的航班跟航線如果可以增加的話未來效應會非常大我聽說很多航空公司是願意選擇臺中來落地甚至來開問題是我們民航局啊態度很重要啊"},{"start":21457.128,"end":21482.603,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們絕對支持而且絕對會協助絕對支持那你要用具體的行動跟結果論來說支持給我看我們以後就是盡量增加航班跟航線盡量不要再有減少的狀況出現沒有任何說明臺中中部的鄉親一面倒的罵所以拜託交通部好不好拜託民航局好不好好沒問題謝謝委員"},{"start":21485.779,"end":21489.924,"text":"好謝謝何欣淳委員接下來邀請葉元之委員不好意思請部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":21508.41,"end":21524.215,"text":"部長好委員好就是我們現在看一個道安的問題我們發現從106年到112年就是在交通上面因為車禍30內死亡的人數逐漸的攀高那我不知道部長知不知道這個狀況那大概原因是什麼"},{"start":21526.398,"end":21552.866,"text":"逐漸的攀高我們其實部內當時有講有討論過一些原因是高齡的使用者增加這是一方面再來就是說交通的運輸的過程當中的使用量也整體都在增加車輛變多嗎都都有在變多所以主要是因為高齡使用者增加造成的台灣進入高齡社會高齡使用者那我真想要針對其中一樣來跟部長討論就是所謂的區間測速"},{"start":21555.507,"end":21578.142,"text":"就是現在交通部還是堅持要有區間測速那也不是說一定不可以但是我們是希望說能夠每一個度段可以去檢討他到底對於交通安全有沒有幫助我舉幾個沒有幫助的例子比如說像2022年那時候新北市就曾經在重新橋急車道有試辦過區間測速結果發現試辦的結果區間測速設下去反而車禍增加了所以後來這個區間測速就把它取消"},{"start":21585.543,"end":21600.711,"text":"那臺北市也有類似的狀況本來軍人測速在志強隧道跟辛亥隧道裝設的時候啊認為說很棒他是一個交安神器但是他設在辛亥隧道就發現車禍的事故發生的件數就向上增加"},{"start":21601.391,"end":21618.516,"text":"可見區間測數他不是萬靈丹那我們也常常看到網路上有很多人其實是反對區間測數就認為說區間測數不見得可以達到降低交通事故的效果但是我們看到交通部的回應這個是道安司針對區間測數的回應"},{"start":21620.556,"end":21637.189,"text":"回答很自私他說根據國外的研究速度越快造成死亡情形越嚴重車速每小時30這個我當然知道但是車速跟區間車速是兩回事你設定單點的速限跟你整個路段的區間車速是兩回事"},{"start":21638.27,"end":21654.141,"text":"委員我跟您報告您的上一頁其實也有提到是新北市政府在重新喬的機車道啟用區間測速新北市政府下一段臺北市的交工處與自強隧道與心態隧道裝設區間測速"},{"start":21655.982,"end":21656.543,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":21674.594,"end":21689.482,"text":"因為交通部畢竟是最高的交通主管機關我們現在在是全國的立法院所以我們當然也只能要求交通部去跟地方政府或者是警察局去做了解所以我要跟部長講就是說這個區間測速這個東西我認為你們單純回復說因為速度要下降所以要有區間測速這個是兩回事因為區間測速有時候會遇到一個狀況"},{"start":21700.908,"end":21716.995,"text":"大家不是故意超速可是可能那個路段開著開著就超速了因為他可能速度比較高並沒有什麼危險性所以他就開可是問題是因為局限車路他是算平均速度啊所以到比較遠的地方的時候他就開始降速他的降速有可能是低於速限啊"},{"start":21717.375,"end":21717.815,"text":"也同意報告委員"},{"start":21733.942,"end":21749.593,"text":"但是區間測數裝或不裝這是地方政府來決定的不是交通部的決定不是對一個地方我覺得還是因為你們是道安的實際上不是交通部在決定的不然你們不要有道安司了你們有這個單位就是因為你們是最高主管機關"},{"start":21750.854,"end":21778.66,"text":"所以是不是可以針對區間測數這件事情然後去跟你剛講的地方政府去做一個通盤的了解就是說因為我覺得是看路段有的路段就確實是不適合區間測數的全國性的通盤檢討這個可能要由內政部的警政署他們去做會比較恰當不一定是由交通部但是委員如果希望交通部能夠去關心因為道安也是你們的業務範圍但是執法面不是我們對對對可是規劃面是嘛"},{"start":21782.465,"end":21807.567,"text":"我覺得大家不要這樣推來推去啦這樣推來推去沒有意思啦如果你希望我們去跟他們溝通我們一定會去溝通部長你們是交通部嘛也有道安司嘛那道安的最高上位就是交通要安全嘛對那作為一個主管機關如果說這跟我無關那個地方政府或者是說那個是警察局警政署跟我無關我覺得這樣就有點沒意思了啦"},{"start":21808.796,"end":21809.137,"text":"接下來邀請廖偉強委員質詢"},{"start":21844.332,"end":21845.253,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們的陳部長"},{"start":21855.029,"end":21877.349,"text":"部長好委員好部長週一的時候次長跟台鐵董事長有來但有些問題我覺得他們回答我覺得不太足夠還是想要請部長就這個部會首長的高度來回答首先同樣身為我們交通部國營事業那台鐵新進的人員起薪僅有三萬四那比不上中華郵政的四萬一那也落後我們港務公司的四萬七"},{"start":21878.45,"end":21907.526,"text":"但我們可以看到臺鐵的從業人員要面對的是一個很辛苦的工作環境以及裝備甚至都很缺乏的情況之下我想要請教一下部長這個你認為臺鐵的基層人員還有沒有待遇調整的空間我這裡想要問的是公司化後招募的人員的薪資畢竟這是未來公司的這個基層的主力報告委員我的立場其實在上一次在委員會備選的時候我也說過對於國營事業的從業人員大家都很辛苦"},{"start":21908.286,"end":21935.601,"text":"那在這個過程當中如果說要加薪的話我會希望是基層優先所以這個部分其實委員你也很關心所以臺鐵的從業人員的這個薪資的調整的部分我們其實已經有方案那目前我也正積極在跟人事總處這邊在溝通針對從業人員他的薪資的部分的調整我們希望能夠趕快給他拉高那我希望能夠很短的時間內能夠有成果再向您報告"},{"start":21936.501,"end":21950.727,"text":"謝謝部長因為的確上次我也說基層都沒加薪的情況之下董事長居然自己先調薪了這個40%對於這個基層是會有影響我想在領導上面是這樣的說法是會有影響但實際上杜董他的薪資的調整是"},{"start":21951.627,"end":21976.25,"text":"我知道你們會說依照規定辦法,這個沒有問題,但是我只是要告訴你說,是,是,沒有錯,感受上基層,一定感受不好的。所以部長剛剛也說應該是以基層為優先吧,對不對?沒錯沒錯,基層優先。好,因為我希望說,那部長你剛剛有說也在擬電腦新的方案,看是不是你們擬好的時候也可以給本席。我們已經擬好了,只是說我們現在在跟人事總署在溝通,那如果他們那邊OK的話,大概就可以完成,那這個版本是不是再提供給委員好不好?"},{"start":21976.67,"end":21999.774,"text":"因為這樣的工作環境跟待遇其實就是新人招不到舊人留不住那留不住人才的話就是台鐵這未滿10年的年資的員工長年大概就是5成上下在徘徊所以招不到這些問題的話我想要另外問一下那現在台鐵基層負責維修跟安全檢查的員工現在缺額有多少?這個缺額我是不是請董事長好不好好董事長"},{"start":22002.073,"end":22026.006,"text":"這跟委員報告剛剛委員講到這一列我們的缺額主要是發生在我們的供電系統還有就是我們東部地區的對 所以你們缺額有多少那遭不到這些原因的原因是什麼遭不到的原因就是因為東部現在比較沒有那個任職意願的人"},{"start":22026.966,"end":22051.757,"text":"那再加上我們上一次我們招考從業人員我們的過程比較短一點所以我們 沒關係董事長我只是想要跟你講這件事情就是今天勞動部調查因為我時間有限了不好意思把你打斷了有6點勞動部的調查裡面有6.6萬的職缺超過半年找不到人這是所有的產業沒錯但是對於治安全至關重要的維修跟這個安全安檢人員平均開缺要等多久才能補齊"},{"start":22055.349,"end":22073.343,"text":"這個現在我們公司已經沒有所謂開靴的這個情形了我們現在就是我們第二次招考剛剛報告的我們從業人員第二次招考今年底以前我們會好董事長我就是最後要跟你講一個結論反正綜合上述我們希望你們可以更重視基層員工"},{"start":22074.104,"end":22074.284,"text":"加蓋摩托車"},{"start":22098.399,"end":22126.742,"text":"另外想要請問一下說關於新型態的機車包括這個全覆蓋式的機車以及手把龍頭是傳統的手握式或是駕駛盤式雖然民間一直有希望開放的聲音但是因為它涉及到安全道路管理路權監理等多項問題所以我想要請問一下交通部針對此類的新型態的機車合法上路目前有沒有規劃那目前研議的情形如何年底之前有沒有可能讓新的管理政策上路"},{"start":22127.382,"end":22156.457,"text":"這個新型態的車子我們確實是之前台灣比較沒有引進那現在可能會有引進的可能性的時候我們交通部確實已經有在研議那進度的部分我是不是請司長來跟委員報告這個部分跟委員報告一下部裡面目前有在做研議那但是這一個在歐盟那邊是屬於L5的這一個算是三輪機車的部分那但是最後這些行駛的路線還是要到這個地方的道路所以我們後續還要跟地方政府做討論"},{"start":22157.197,"end":22176.448,"text":"對,所以我想要跟你說的就是針對這類加蓋機車有沒有要設立新的分類目前看到你就說可能會納在L5嘛對不對那也就是指這個排氣量域50cc或是電動超過5馬力之三輪機車當然這樣會有兩個問題首先如果是這個二輪式的加蓋機車是不是就無法納入規範進而上路"},{"start":22178.867,"end":22206.998,"text":"跟委員報告一下如果因為這裡面有三輪的還有這一個二輪的那如果說下方這個二輪的部分的話其實國內啦國內像這個BMW他有原廠生產就是說有架蓋的這個部分那基本上那個是比較單純是屬於一般的這個二輪的一個機車那剛剛委員提到的那個三輪的部分的話那個路線就比較這個複雜一點因為他沒辦法兩段式左轉可能有些路線可能要比較"},{"start":22207.398,"end":22208.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22224.193,"end":22227.476,"text":"委員您這樣的建議我們就列入討論因為目前也在討論的過程當中您的寶貴意見剛好可以作為我們參考進來之後我們就把它納入來討論"},{"start":22243.448,"end":22271.896,"text":"對,因為我覺得對於新興還有創意的這些產品我都主張行政機關應該要鼓勵多元發展但是再怎麼樣也不要成為它的主力將這些產品扼殺在搖籃裡但同時我也主張應該合理管理並考量到現有的制度的影響並做出合理的修法調適那這個部分是不是也可以請你們在這個合規你們現在討論的進度然後以及未來可能的方向和你們現在跟地方政府討論的一些要點你是不是也可以會後給本席一份"},{"start":22272.256,"end":22272.476,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長陳部長"},{"start":22298.117,"end":22315.453,"text":"部長好 學長好 議會的學長 台中人加油 但是我是外委員會直接切入主題其實要跟部長特別分享 在9月27號的時候我也陸續關心台虎 我們的台中虎航陸續規劃台中的一個航線"},{"start":22317.255,"end":22345.033,"text":"當時相關的單位給我的回函相關規劃以及申請已經在實際面早已經遞交9月27號回函給我們但是因為目前還在程序中尚未核可本公司將持續追蹤進度待相關程序核可以後確認以後再另行議定銷售期程及復航日期可以看得出來這個回函是這個回函是公司給我的一個進度那我真的不懂"},{"start":22345.413,"end":22364.983,"text":"在9月27號給我們他已經遞交了相關的申請程序那為什麼最後會沒有到底是卡在交通部還是我們有外交的壓力大陸的杯葛報告委員這個應該因為他們在申請的是成田跟名古屋的這個航線那目前我們在等待日方那邊的同意"},{"start":22366.061,"end":22394.242,"text":"所以我也很納悶喔日本首相石破茂相對對台灣是非常的友善怎麼可能會卡這麼久原因到底是什麼你們目前有沒有找外交部來做一個溝通跟委員報告齁有關這個案子其實我們跟外交部都有陸續在接洽中然後一開始得到這個訊息就是說一直還沒有同意的時候其實就透過外交管道去做相關了解那我們民航局這邊也跟日本的這個JCAB的部分也有在聯繫"},{"start":22395.003,"end":22418.514,"text":"我想最後的結論大家看到就是沒有航線那台中的航線越來越少身為台中人的交通部部長我覺得責無旁貸那我想華航的董事長也在現場作為最大股東虎航最後歸零了沒有這個航線了我想在這個過程當中華航的角度是怎麼樣是支持嗎還是有權力的慰留這部分華航說清楚好不好"},{"start":22419.912,"end":22441.599,"text":"那個虎航虎航現在是上市公司那基本上他們本於公司治理他們的營運的狀況我們是不能干預但是這個事情我跟委員報告是這樣子我們回去會找他來商量就是說台中的部分是不是這個部分是不是可以儘早能夠恢復這是我能做的"},{"start":22442.059,"end":22469.325,"text":"我想現在都撲空我們都非常非常的難過那部長能不能給我們一個期程能不能承諾臺中的航線只會越來越多不會再有減少那個虎航在澳門的航線的部分雖然在10月26號我知道你說1月的時候1月會再恢復對對對但我們不只是澳門我們希望的是日本另外我們還有其他的新宇航空它的這個沖繩的航線這個我都知道但現在我們希望是越來越多不能拿新宇來講虎航"},{"start":22469.645,"end":22492.421,"text":"我絕對跟您的角度是一樣的我們給您的標準會比較高我希望臺中的機場未來的運量要不斷的提升未來能夠服務的航線能夠不斷的增加所以您願意承諾朝這個方向來努力只會增加不會減少並且虎航全力想辦法協助我們一定朝這個方向來努力我想國民都在期待那我也要特別拜託"},{"start":22493.001,"end":22514.763,"text":"臺中有幾個重要的我們關注的議題不管是我們現在的鐵路高價化包括烏日大慶這一段這在我的選區也在你過往服務的選區那以及還有一個很重要的是噪音改裝的一個問題從114年1月1號開始我們雖然有法令已經在開始要做一個合格鐵牌的一個認證但是我們對於噪音"},{"start":22515.484,"end":22515.905,"text":"道教條例增列"},{"start":22530.583,"end":22531.143,"text":"是不是我請市長好不好"},{"start":22549.383,"end":22574.827,"text":"跟委員報告有關於這個我想這個排氣管改裝製造噪音的部分大概是環境部跟這個交通部還有這個這個我都知道我還是要講啦有因才有果啦趕快處理源頭啦不要只是一直噪音噪音那源頭把它處理好改裝的問題我們是抓改抓草不抓改再重申一次抓草不抓改那但是源頭如何擺"},{"start":22575.687,"end":22586.234,"text":"跟委員報告就是說抓草不抓改所以這個排氣管單品的部分這個環境部已經在實施單品的這個認證那我們經理機關就是負責幫忙這個安裝的這個符合環境部的認證的這個排氣管之後我們就會辦理這個登記"},{"start":22595.1,"end":22610.387,"text":"你相關會後文字資料再給我啦那部長還有一個問題啦偽造車牌非常猖狂你自己應該也知道吧現在我們的法規比以前還要嚴格喔但是現在反而你高你真度的喔這個假車牌生意越做越大"},{"start":22611.26,"end":22639.033,"text":"未來交通部有沒有什麼因應對策幾個方面一個方面是我們跨機關的取締的部分當然要再加強因為取締面不是在交通部這邊所以跨機關的部分我們有在努力那第二就是說針對他下架因為大部分買假車牌就是網路上網路的下架的部分我們也請數位部在協助當中所以下架的部分我們在努力那第三就是我們自己的這個加嚴的標準就是未來的罰則要再提高的部分目前交通部正在處理就在嚴禮當中嗎"},{"start":22640.294,"end":22655.187,"text":"所以對於現在道路交通管理處罰條例第12條第一項第三款我們可以看到使用偽照變照還有相關的牌照處罰為3600到10800元的8萬我們希望再提高再提高而且並可處一年以下有期徒刑可不可以再提高"},{"start":22656.352,"end":22656.532,"text":"謝謝羅廷維委員"},{"start":22687.236,"end":22688.418,"text":"陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員"},{"start":22710.36,"end":22710.62,"text":"網絡票選人行地域"},{"start":22725.345,"end":22739.192,"text":"那於是呢這個內政部就決定要全額補助來改善這個交通路段那當然會會同交通部還有一些事情需要討論但是我們看到在這個票選出來之後呢桃園市政府他們已經說他們預計明年5月即將要開始動工那部長現在已經將近10月底嘛齁你覺得這個路段如果要動工的話應該要聽取哪些人的意見"},{"start":22748.837,"end":22774.1,"text":"當然我們絕對尊重而且也支持人本交通可是部長您覺得在改善這個交通路段的工作應該要聽取哪些人的意見我想在周圍的商家跟住家然後還有就是說當然地方政府也是很重要的意見必須要加入那再來就是我們對於交通上面的專業我希望如果交通部可以參與那也是一個方向"},{"start":22775.101,"end":22790.901,"text":"那當然內政部這個案子可能是內政部他們所以他們也必須加入還有就是一個警政單位也必須要加入太好了部長果然非常專業我剛剛就是說因為他是內政部要全額補助然後交由市政府去執行可是我們看到市政府現在用非常直接蠻橫的態度就說5月即將動工"},{"start":22793.624,"end":22814.746,"text":"可是呢相關的居民卻沒有收到很多的討論跟說明的邀請甚至沒有相關的公聽會剛部長你都說了我們除了專業專家的意見其實當地商家還有每天會出入這一條路的人那以我自己為例我知道這條路上其實就有一所高中一所國中孩子們每天要上下學我給部長看一下可怕的片段謝謝"},{"start":22819.946,"end":22820.206,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22837.03,"end":22861.058,"text":"議員就收到了200多人的陳情來告訴議員說這個蠻橫的處理手法這樣不通啦吼所以我們辦公室收到陳情吼因為我現在的選民服務落在這個地方我們跟議員討論我們也聽了一些聲音有看了一些意見那我們已經發文給交通部跟內政部希望可以積極的請聽當地公民的聲音因為像這樣的交通建設他務必要有公民參與的角度剛剛部長您也說了"},{"start":22863.138,"end":22882.183,"text":"實際上的用路人就是住在周圍的住戶跟商家比較多還有包括您所提到的學校的學生是用路人真正使用的人所以我們希望最後的工程改善可以讓用路人可以參與一些建議因為實際用路的是他們不是只有設計單位還有坐落在旁邊的商家"},{"start":22882.523,"end":22910.408,"text":"因為這個動工的期間我們可以想像那個交通的黑暗期一定非常可怕那商家的生意不要被影響行人的權益也不要被影響但是我們又可以預期可以看到整個內政部全額支持的交通改善可以得到美好的成果所以剛剛也聽到部長的承諾我們辦公室之後會協助地方議員召開公聽會跟座談會也要拜託交通部當然我們也會再去找內政部把相關的人員帶到地方來請聽大家的聲音這個部分是不是可以請部長給我們公開"},{"start":22911.288,"end":22911.528,"text":"接下來邀請張祺凱委員"},{"start":22944.626,"end":22972.956,"text":"請陳副部長副部長你好委員好今天你被問了一整天那個台鐵漲價的事嘛我們做個總結第一個春節過年前不會漲對不對對這是第一個嘛那我也肯定你你說你不會把這次10月份今天開始漲電價的"},{"start":22975.276,"end":22982.592,"text":"加到臺鐵這個票在裡面去嗎?這個應該落實好不好?可是我現在為什麼聽到臺鐵那個說什麼十個日子要再送去董事會是什麼?"},{"start":22986.87,"end":23002.255,"text":"請杜董杜董你不用回答啦你現在送去你現在只要貫徹部長講的兩個過年前春節前不能去好不好跟委員報我們還在研議中研議齁所以你之前上去討論你一定要貫徹這個地理你今年上的那個價格不是2.28億喔4.56億對不對絕對不要加上去喔"},{"start":23009.918,"end":23038.986,"text":"我肯定部長這樣做 不然從省電那邊嘛 減少人民的負擔 這個我高度肯定好不好OK 那你那個部長請回我們來談一下我延續剛剛培宇的那個行人定義博定你今年的1月份到6月份我們的行人不幸死掉了 過世了多少年照你上面的數字183很恐怖喔"},{"start":23041.404,"end":23060.709,"text":"這個數據太恐怖了吧6個月我們的行人發生事故不限過往的183人那一天大概就是平均一個所以怪不得CNN說我們是行人地域啊那交通部我看資料你們本來訂了今年要比去年是要降7%"},{"start":23063.021,"end":23087.387,"text":"結果現在不只沒有降反升對不對上升了將近6%5.78%這個要拜託一下部長這要當作為重中之重來處理好不好是我們來看一個個案目前7月跟8月是已經都下降了這些數字對對對1到7月已經降了那8月也都降一些繼續努力好不好希望把今年這個目標是真的達到是往下降不要漲整體來說到目前為止比去年的同期還降"},{"start":23088.067,"end":23105.039,"text":"太好了 我們來看一個個案 你在台中來的嘛我來看 也是東海的喔看一下你學妹這個個案9月24號東海大學這個女學生這個事情後來你了解 她主要發生意外的原因 其實就是那個公車要轉彎的時候沒有停下來 沒有看嘛"},{"start":23105.359,"end":23129.782,"text":"我們有強制停等但在這一台公車他沒有停等而且我們不只強制停等還強制要指差確認但是他顯然是沒有做這個動作所以我們現在一個是強制要去執行第二個應該是修法跟修相關的規則我們看一下目前的規定是道路交通安全規則的第103條的第二款我進去看各自這個規定有沒有有漏洞"},{"start":23132.959,"end":23136.043,"text":"汽車行進行人道穿越的時候,遇有行人穿越"},{"start":23137.601,"end":23139.442,"text":"現在是只要有行人都得停等這是必然要停等的"},{"start":23165.483,"end":23194.149,"text":"這個法就要看起來條文就是你看到有人遇到嘛遇有人穿越你才停下來嘛那事實上你應該就是我知道你們現在已經這樣做啦我是說你應該把這個規則就這樣定你寫的紅字這邊是只要遇到有行人穿越就要啦後面當然有些條件更要啦前面只要是行人穿越就要就要停現在問題就出在你看不到行人有穿越或者有死角嘛所以應該不是說有行人的時候你才停下來"},{"start":23195.563,"end":23223.469,"text":"是不是?應該像日本嘛,你到了一個路棚,你要轉彎的時候你就要停下來,而且要做手勢嘛,是不是?部長,我想跟你講一下,來來,剛剛這個條文是你們要負責管的。報告委員,這個是一般的汽車啦,但是只要是客運的那種大型車輛是,不管有沒有人,他都必須要停等,而且要只差確認,尤其是客運公車,不管有沒有人都得停。對嘛,這是你現在的規定嘛,對不對?是阿是阿。喔,所以你的規則裡面你就把它訂好阿。"},{"start":23224.589,"end":23234.226,"text":"不是只有要求交通部做我做立法委我也來修啊道路交通管理條例的法則第44條第2項也沒有明定喔我們分工好不好"},{"start":23235.023,"end":23261.694,"text":"修法這部分報告這個部分這個部分齁沒問題你要提案這是對對對我就明定我不是什麼什麼你看到再停下來現在應該像是但是這會影響到一般的汽車駕駛人未來只要通過路口不管是紅燈綠燈有沒有人他都得停齁這個可能一般的道路上面的交通可能會國家都是要停啦對不對你這個人本的社會你就是先保障行人嘛一般是大型車跟客運是這樣子我們來做這個討論好了你在"},{"start":23264.855,"end":23291.481,"text":"道路交通安全規則的103條第二款你們去處理好不好那我負責來修法修道路交通管理處罰條例的第44條第二項這要做到什麼程度我知道你們現在目前是希望九大運輸業你們都規定嘛對不對而且是說有看到人我現在是說你沒有看到人你也應該這樣做我們分工分工來做這件事情好不好那另外有點時間那個我在前兩個月邀請邀請這個"},{"start":23293.803,"end":23318.382,"text":"交通部長、前交通部長李孟彥到我們嘉義市來那時候包括王美惠、王維銘事實上建設地方建設都是不分藍綠的那他來了之後嘉義市的市長黃敏惠有提了10項的交通上的這個建設很多那個署長跟處長應該有跟著去那時候10項李部長有引諾6項我知道大部分都在執行當中我今天拜託你兩件事情第一個"},{"start":23319.662,"end":23342.293,"text":"這個建設是延續的而且對地方對全國都是好的所以你要跟你的集數所長講要請他貫徹好不好過去承諾的我們會繼續做這是第一個第二個我最近來邀請你你有空跟我去讓我們我跟王惠美王委員還有交通委員會的我們請拜託來看看我們這個嘉義市有沒有哪些重要交通建設要做好不好請你多支持我們再安排謝謝謝謝博定好謝謝一起努力感謝謝謝委員謝謝張其凱委員"},{"start":23353.831,"end":23354.211,"text":"吳宗憲委員請陳部長"},{"start":23380.477,"end":23395.226,"text":"委員好部長主要是要討論宜蘭部分的問題宜蘭是一個很偉大的地方像蔣渭水像以前法務部前部長陳定南都是那邊孕育出來的所以那是一個很特別的地方"},{"start":23397.322,"end":23417.677,"text":"我想跟部長就講幾個問題就是宜蘭他現在交通還是宜蘭一個很頭痛的問題我假日常常帶家人去宜蘭玩但是要嘛去塞車要嘛回來塞車不然就是有時候遇到高乘載我自己去就很也會很麻煩所以"},{"start":23419.093,"end":23438.455,"text":"宜蘭有兩條任督二脈要打通我想部長一定非常清楚一個是高鐵另外一個是快速道路那這段時間其實我一直替宜蘭去爭取一些甚至我也到過宜蘭那邊參加他們的一些會議我們希望多做一點能夠讓宜蘭這個地方能夠更好"},{"start":23439.297,"end":23453.498,"text":"那我現在主要是第一個我想先就叫我剛剛所提到的第一個任督二脈的第一個就是高鐵的部分那請問一下部長這個高鐵延伸到宜蘭這第二階段環評再評估進行中馬那預計他什麼時候會通過"},{"start":23455.38,"end":23480.452,"text":"這個環評我們希望在明年的第三季可以完成現在在進入第二階了那明年的第三季我們有機會可以完成部長如果有機會你可以去看一下收假的時間其實宜蘭塞車塞得非常非常嚴重這個我知道那這個一定會影響到那個地方的發展所以交通要趕快處理甚至宜蘭他也是花蓮台東的人他要到臺北或是要就是到北部的時候他常常會"},{"start":23481.833,"end":23500.331,"text":"經過宜蘭所以那個地方不是只有宜蘭他要到西部有便利而已甚至花東都會有關係所以這塊要麻煩部長能夠盡量能夠推動他快一點那我想請問一下就是因為我看到近年很多高鐵站他附近的一些那個"},{"start":23502.553,"end":23528.072,"text":"電家還有一些住宅區都發展得非常好像是中南部的高鐵站的特區大概都有400公頃以上但是宜蘭只有190多公頃那裡面雖然有住商區但是他欠缺的是產業區那這個部分是不是應該要通盤的檢討而不是到時候快到時間了或者是發展到一段時間之後發現不夠了那這時候才要去改變"},{"start":23528.812,"end":23546.45,"text":"不知道你們有沒有去討論到這個部分目前這個部分擴大的部分有跟地方政府在做討論有在做討論那這個部分其實大家共識應該也不少不少不少共識但後續我們還要看都市計畫還有整個國土規劃的這個這個規定之後再來做定案"},{"start":23546.51,"end":23576.31,"text":"那除了中央之外麻煩你們一定要聽宜蘭當地宜蘭縣政府以及當地的各個團體或者是一般人民他們的意見因為這個跟他們最有關係不要說因為我在看了好幾個高鐵站他周邊都發展的好繁榮那我希望宜蘭他也能夠有這樣的效果出來那這時候就不能夠因為他的特區的面積太小而讓發展受限制我覺得這個都不好甚至其實這幾年宜蘭的人口一直在增加"},{"start":23576.91,"end":23591.78,"text":"所以我覺得他可預期將來一定是一個不錯發展的地方再麻煩一定要趕快把這個處理好另外就是將來這個預定區內的住宅還有一些廟宇可能有搬遷的問題那是不是說要麻煩你們"},{"start":23594.001,"end":23620.836,"text":"我希望說將來我會開一個座談會那我希望你們能夠派人一起參加我們來聽聽看地方的聲音我們招開的時候你們派來的人不要說派一個很低層級無法決定事情就是應付了事好不好這個麻煩到時候一定要麻煩你多幫忙我們希望讓宜蘭那邊的反彈能夠更小讓他們能夠將來享受到最多的利益還有就是那個替代道路的問題那個替代道路"},{"start":23621.616,"end":23634.862,"text":"是從瑞芳交流道到那個交西的三明路那邊那這個也要請你們趕快去做這個評估啦那這個可行性評估大概什麼時候可以完成地帶道路"},{"start":23636.554,"end":23648.921,"text":"這個部分在8月份我們已經報給院 可行性研究已經做好了 那我們已經報給行政院 目前行政院正在審核當中好 高鐵如果沒有那麼快 但是這個替代道路要麻煩速度能夠快一點 因為這個應該會比較"},{"start":23651.923,"end":23652.203,"text":"在總諮詢的時候我有請教部長"},{"start":23676.271,"end":23693.469,"text":"臺鐵設置月臺那個柵欄門的事情那因為昨天在英哥有發生一件不幸的事情那是不是你們可以趕快考慮這個部分有這個部分我們有在努力做那明年就會看到一個實驗的這個月臺門在高雄就會看到"},{"start":23694.15,"end":23694.33,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員"},{"start":23724.225,"end":23724.946,"text":"主席有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":23743.735,"end":23759.536,"text":"部長好 委員好根據荷蘭自動導航系統商TOMTOM公司最新公布的亞洲交通最糟城市的排行那前10名當中 台灣就有3個城市入榜 你知道嗎"},{"start":23760.357,"end":23781.355,"text":"我知道我有看到這則新聞事實上跟2022年相比臺灣主要城市的交通狀況不但沒有改善而且持續惡化所以這個交通問題也是大家非常關注不過城市的塞車問題是交通亂象其中一個但今天我要問你另外一個問題是國道系統的擁捨其實也非常的嚴重"},{"start":23782.386,"end":23800.155,"text":"那國道不但是民眾跨縣市通勤的重要命脈企業物流觀光產業的運作其實都跟國道有很大的關係那最近也確實遇到很多民眾反映說這幾年國道越來越塞了我想請問部長你上次在國道開車是什麼時候"},{"start":23802.2,"end":23825.385,"text":"我蠻常開,上一次應該是禮拜天所以你算是經常開車那你請問你有沒有覺得國道塞車問題越來越嚴重當然比我們過去的經驗來說車越來越多那你覺得為什麼塞車越來越多就是車越來越多嘛對不對車輛越來越多這是事實客觀的條件那我要跟你說其實國道現在恐怕不只是塞吧而且很危險對不對為什麼呢"},{"start":23828.166,"end":23834.736,"text":"因為從2016年到2023年你知道國道事故的次數是增加還是減少?"},{"start":23837.374,"end":23857.272,"text":"跟委員報告那有一段時間是有降然後後來在這兩年有點微升上來對就是趨勢是升的這兩年如果是有一點我就覺得你保守了點我來講個數字你看是不是叫有一點2016年的國道次數事故的次數是1764次你知道2023年是多少"},{"start":23863.385,"end":23868.732,"text":"3,503次 漲幅將近要兩倍對於全國的事故數同期漲幅是1.32倍1,700變成是3,500漲了兩倍叫做有一點點嗎"},{"start":23882.892,"end":23904.421,"text":"跟委員報告這裡面是屬於A2的事件你要跟我講西向分類講不完但我跟你講事實上你不能只挑對不對你覺得好像不高的數字來講但像這個國道的似乎次數總是政府統計出來精確的數字嘛也就是兩倍啊那請問部長嚴不嚴重"},{"start":23905.959,"end":23921.071,"text":"如果是這個數字看起來是兩倍的話當然是嚴重不管是幾倍啦只要趨向嚴重或趨向數字更多我們都必須檢討當然啦傷亡數更可怕國道傷亡去年是多少人傷亡人數5828人那你知道2016年是多少人嗎"},{"start":23929.139,"end":23949.87,"text":"那個是受傷的人數 受傷加傷亡嘛 傷加亡嘛 2016是2891 也是快到兩倍我想部長你一直講說你很在乎 那我想請問像這種問題 目前我們交通部的拿出來辦法是什麼 有什麼辦法先講原因啊 為什麼增加那麼多啊"},{"start":23957.098,"end":23977.023,"text":"這幾年的話就是說分心駕駛的非常多那為什麼分心駕駛這麼多那以前就不分心現在比較分心現在手機用LINE的人手機用的比較多那我想請教有些調查的結果他自己都承認都是因為在分心或者是疲勞的時候"},{"start":23978.086,"end":23982.01,"text":"數字只要是向上我們都必須要檢討那如果我們找出原因是因為用手機的人數多了的話或者是開車用手機我們還是要想辦法"},{"start":23998.047,"end":24008.179,"text":"所以我們一直在宣導就是說不超速那那個不分心不疲勞駕駛然後要繫好安全帶大概就是三不一樣的部分要做好這樣才有辦法就確保那個安全駕駛"},{"start":24009.193,"end":24034.209,"text":"總而言之這個數字我是希望交通部作為警惕那當然另外一個問題就是說根據交通部自己統計數字國道客運載客量2019年是8138萬人次的高峰到疫情後2022年降到4300萬人次2023年雖然回升到5209萬人次但是能遠低於疫情前的水平"},{"start":24035.009,"end":24058.451,"text":"那面對國道客運大幅下滑的情況請問交通部有什麼樣的措施來協助業者度過這樣的難關報告委員他下滑是一個客觀確實發生的事情那幾個面向一方面或許對民眾來說搭乘高鐵或是搭乘台鐵便利性也蠻高的高鐵台鐵其實在8年前就有了"},{"start":24059.011,"end":24059.531,"text":"接下來邀請洪孟楷委員"},{"start":24095.492,"end":24120.502,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長請陳部長好部長好部長本席過去到現在一直很關心我們的觀光產業是尤其是疫情那個時候飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲運輸本席都認為是說海嘯第一排是沒錯那疫情也過完了現在恢復今年"},{"start":24121.642,"end":24144.737,"text":"今天早上你已經講了就確定1000萬的來台旅客人數跳票只剩4分之3750萬我們還是設定這樣的目標我說過前線同仁大家還是很努力我還是設定這樣的目標當然我沒有否定前線同仁的努力基本上觀光行業以及過去到現在我一直覺得是說我們同仁都很用心那但是現在750萬是一個可能的狀況嘛"},{"start":24149.66,"end":24169.508,"text":"尤其今天有媒體也報導了就是說有可能有千萬旅客的逆差千萬旅客變成說台灣人都往外跑是不是應該目前還在評估應該不會這麼多啦不會到千萬嘛不會到千萬一千七百萬嘛沒有錯啊那這樣子就這樣子其實是強勁的啊"},{"start":24171.229,"end":24192.978,"text":"沒關係部長說實在我們現在面臨到因為現在已經10月了嘛那我當然希望好但是我們現在在做一個檢討你說有可能是因為地震颱風軍演等相關的關係但我們看日本我們看其他我們鄰近的國家也有颱風也有地震可是為什麼他們的觀光是逆勢成長他們觀光比疫情之前還要好"},{"start":24195.653,"end":24220.93,"text":"日本應該所有的臺灣人民都知道因為日本現在日幣很便宜大家都很愛去是包括我們自己都很愛去所以說對我們來講你覺得是現在匯率匯率臺灣的物價高因素很多這是其中之一來部長我給你一個機會你想一下你明年講還是講是說希望拿到千萬旅客人次本期一定樂觀其成但重點是怎麼做來今年750明年要變1000250萬怎麼來"},{"start":24223.735,"end":24246.551,"text":"具體你的目標這個一千萬的這個來台數其實他是有一些策略跟方法然後我們是五大市場比如說這個五大市場我們私下都很多溝通的管道但我現在想請教原則上應該這麼說因為部長今天早上750嘛部長"},{"start":24251.135,"end":24264.453,"text":"新人上任三把火對不對講一下嘛報告委員你自己覺得怎麼樣我明年250從哪邊來然後250是達的到的有沒有一個亮點可以讓大家覺得來"},{"start":24266.472,"end":24291.421,"text":"我們這個航空業目前正在恢復當中恢復的過程當中其實旅客也會增加這是一方面那二方面其實更關鍵的是大家為什麼會喜歡來台灣玩台灣要有亮點所以我們現在針對亮點的部分正在努力當中那大家知道這次的地震當然其他地方也有地震但是對台灣來講太魯閣是一個很重要的觀光資源那這次很不幸地地震發生在東部那太魯閣確實受損了"},{"start":24292.901,"end":24295.404,"text":"亮點有可能是環境也有可能是活動也有可能是各縣市的對不對好"},{"start":24311.48,"end":24334.446,"text":"這就回到老命題其實我們各縣市有非常多的一些活動我覺得都是很有特色譬如說臺東有樂氣球新北有天燈節耶誕城新竹有風箏澎湖有花火那一樣嘛我們不希望是說集中在哪個月份我們希望是說平均如果是12月12個月每一個縣市每個月都可以有一個主題或代表是"},{"start":24335.446,"end":24361.009,"text":"我就請教這樣子會不會更加的會讓大家覺得說整個臺灣很有趣每個月我來至少我都有一個縣市我就不會集中消費在某一個地方委員說的很正確我們應該要平均一點大家每一個月都能夠來所以第一個第二個就是說針對宣傳面我們有12個活動假設我們有12個月有12個活動宣傳也要讓國外的旅客知道所以我們可能比如說打出12大"},{"start":24362.435,"end":24387.307,"text":"一月可以去哪個縣市二月去哪個縣市那請教部長腦海裡面你有沒有想到譬如十月我現在哪個縣市是可以去我們十一月開始就是馬上有一個記者會了就是我們的今年的十一月開始就是二十二個縣市啊去分工所以月月有亮點所以十一月的話是花蓮那元月是台中我看部長不需要你那麼保護啦來啦部長"},{"start":24390.676,"end":24398.587,"text":"11月可以去哪個縣市11月阿以我個人來看11月台灣的每個縣市都很好玩"},{"start":24399.673,"end":24420.133,"text":"那這樣不就又回到老話一句如果說大家都很好玩那就沒有亮點啊縣市都亮點那就是沒有亮點我們現在討論其實很務實的討論部長我沒有要挖洞給你跳我現在點出來這個問題因為這個就是過去到現在我一直在交通委員會有講的就是說我希望是讓全台灣都能有"},{"start":24420.413,"end":24435.611,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們有一個中央機關交通部下的觀光署當然我自己也覺得是過去觀光觀光舉報觀光署真的還不夠是天氣變涼台灣有很多的很好的溫泉的區域或許我們可以來發展溫泉的旅遊"},{"start":24436.472,"end":24453.961,"text":"日本很多的溫泉旅遊台灣人很愛去但其實我們台灣有相當多很棒的溫泉景點這個部分或許可以列為11月或者12月冬天的時候可以用的月份所以部長我就麻煩了既然我們就已經有共識其實我沒有要偏後哪一個縣市因為只要台灣好只要旅客來台灣對我們來講都是賺我們"},{"start":24456.562,"end":24458.603,"text":"關光旅遊住宿飯店餐飲運輸這都是我們國人可以獲得的"},{"start":24480.563,"end":24505.058,"text":"所以我們列出來12個月我希望下一次你可以很侃侃而談你甚至如果說有機會出國的時候也可以跟國際友人介紹11月來台灣哪一個縣市什麼活動你一定要來非來不可12月新北耶誕城你一定要來因為這真的是已經被列入說是全世界十大的一個亮點所以你沒有來的話太可惜了"},{"start":24505.498,"end":24506.559,"text":"李博弈委員"},{"start":24541.578,"end":24541.599,"text":"請陳部長"},{"start":24551.394,"end":24573.819,"text":"部長你好委員好11月你想去哪裡剛剛夢開委員講的我現在正式邀請你來11月來高雄好嗎高雄有沒有什麼比較好的溫泉或許我們可以去高雄高雄有溫泉我可以帶你去看在六龜而且現在復原中那有很多很值得去看的我來帶部長去看但是我也很想帶我一些國外的朋友來看"},{"start":24574.707,"end":24601.99,"text":"那國外的朋友來其實高雄正在起飛這個全台灣都知道高雄因為台積電五個高階場進駐那接下來還有高雄目前為止有很多演唱會經濟有很多東南亞東北亞來的旅客其實他們透過轉機來透過轉機來的原因剛剛部長接受很多中部立委的這些考答那你也來自之中對"},{"start":24603.753,"end":24607.202,"text":"為什麼台中的航線少那我要問你的是為什麼高雄"},{"start":24608.513,"end":24632.808,"text":"到目前為止到疫情結束以後到航空業復甦到目前為止所有的中型以上的客機回不來其實很簡單臺中的委員他們認為說飛機壞了你先犧牲我臺中航線那高雄我認為疫情在復甦中還是民航所有包含"},{"start":24634.11,"end":24641.76,"text":"華航還是把飛機放在桃園機場還是把中型飛機放在松山機場"},{"start":24643.286,"end":24670.901,"text":"這些中型飛機並沒有回來小港機場其實還是調度的問題所以我在這邊要跟部長也做一個要求是要求南部需要運量南部需要養量南部正成為一個高科技包含半導體的中心南部需要中型航班準備對接美國直接飛美國"},{"start":24671.662,"end":24673.491,"text":"那現在目前最新的消息在這個"},{"start":24678.186,"end":24705.708,"text":"美國一個航空公司已經宣布美籍聯航已經宣布在準備來飛高雄東京他準備飛高雄東京其實下一步就是從東京再轉到比如說LA或者是舊金山那我們希望爭取的是在我們審核這條航線的時候直接要求包含雙走道的飛機A350或波音787以上的飛機"},{"start":24707.549,"end":24735.457,"text":"讓這台飛機可以經由從小港的旅客可以飛到東京不用下飛機不用拖行李直接飛到美國這個是我們希望民航局可以做的希望部長可以責成的第二個這個不用之前的計畫說高雄國際機場要投入880億啦我跟你要飛機還沒跟你要880億因為先有飛機先有巨量880億跟這個航線沒有關係880億花下去大家才要感受第二個"},{"start":24736.317,"end":24737.825,"text":"我在大院我在立法院"},{"start":24739.055,"end":24766.053,"text":"在左院長旁邊質詢你高鐵的高雄計畫是這個高雄計畫不得了啊這個高雄計畫應該可能要超過一千億啊我在這裡也沒有要跟你爭取一千億我跟你爭取兩億就好了兩億讓左營高鐵站的月台可以直接下去這個我們的高雄捷運我剛才也碰到這個江耀宗董事長他也很認真啊他也馬上跟我說已經在前天去拜訪高雄市政府"},{"start":24766.693,"end":24787.025,"text":"其實齁 董事長我跟你說齁 那個不是林青龍副市長的個性啦林青龍副市長如果聽到你跟他說 這個還要經過8個月的可行性評估 早就翻臉了那天對你很客氣 說好 先可行性評估 然後做細部設計在這邊我要建議部長 可不可以可行性評估加細部設計一起做"},{"start":24788.567,"end":24803.042,"text":"簡短這個時辰這個可行的部分應該是可行的啦大家已經看這麼多次不管是市政府也好委員也好委員尤其特別關心這個議題也爭取了非常久那現在高鐵公司也很感謝願意做啦可行性"},{"start":24805.445,"end":24821.752,"text":"讓部長講完就好我是覺得可行大家都已經討論過了那到底可不可行的基本設計我覺得可以直接做了我是希望建議台那個高鐵公司直接我們就進入基本的設計那設計的設計面如果不行的話我們再來討論好謝謝部長"},{"start":24823.873,"end":24846.85,"text":"董事長我沒有時間第三個議題也是非常重要的就是高雄貫川三個醫學中心七所大學以及兩個科學園區的捷運子縣目前可行性評估謝謝交通部的補助已經送回到交通部接下來我們要努力在兩年內"},{"start":24847.591,"end":24848.051,"text":"李博弈委員"},{"start":24866.63,"end":24889.685,"text":"那接下來邀請黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員不在現場接下來邀請傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員不在現場接下來邀請麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在現場接下來邀請顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在現場"},{"start":24893.607,"end":24894.308,"text":"王宏威委員陳穎委員"},{"start":24930.196,"end":24936.438,"text":"我們先請那個交通部長請陳部長第一次到這裡質詢這裡陽剛氣好重部長好謝謝您的咖啡我想好的他這個可以讓你精神好一點我想先我們今天來討論一下這個花東交通的這個問題我想在今年其實我們有很多"},{"start":24958.587,"end":24979.066,"text":"近幾年有很多天災啦不管是0403的地震也好還有最近很嚴重的颱風齁那甚至就是豪大雨等等那經常都造成我們的對還有一個就是前幾年發生的這些重大事故我想我剛剛舉的這些例子齁都是經常造成我們"},{"start":24981.648,"end":25001.321,"text":"東部鐵公路中斷的一些重要原因當然每當這些事情發生的時候我們國內飛往花蓮台東的航班大家就趕快去坐飛機但是航班又很少時間也不是很理想所以再加上像近期的天災來講"},{"start":25003.142,"end":25031.185,"text":"我們有就是說像這個蘇花公路它有這個坍塌問題還有我們沿路這個火車回來的時候往東部開其實它都還是有這個地質地質疏鬆還有這個土石流等等的這些問題所以會造成就是說即便我們火車很勉強的上路行駛了但是呢常常都因為有一些特殊狀況我們"},{"start":25032.426,"end":25059.354,"text":"火車會務點我們都要停下來那當然對於民眾來講每次要回去這個回花東的路心裡都毛毛的所以我們會選擇從臺北要回臺東或花林我們會這樣就是選擇西部幹線然後又要繞南回回來其實最近是有相當多的人選擇這樣的方式特別剛好七八月到九月其實都還有我們原住民的這個重要的例行的祭典"},{"start":25060.174,"end":25087.774,"text":"所以這個部分雖然很公平的這個票價計算方式都一樣但是我們回來的這段路卻多花了很長的這個時間還有金錢所以這個部分我不曉得交通部是不是有研議在這種重大的特殊狀況發生的時候有任何的配套措施以及補助來協助我們東部返鄉的民眾"},{"start":25089.128,"end":25115.229,"text":"報告委員特殊的情況如果是道路中斷的部分我有報告過就是說我們有3個小時啟動的輸運的方案這個是輸運的部分但您剛剛在提的是特殊的祭典或者是特殊的活動的部分我們目前沒有做特殊的規劃但您剛剛在講的這個飛航的航班的部分確實現在航班比較少那委員也關心過很多次而且也比較貴很多"},{"start":25116.51,"end":25146.328,"text":"是我們正在努力我覺得第一步我們一步一步來第一步先至少讓他禮拜一到禮拜天每一天都要有航班到花蓮的部分這個我們正在努力來做應該十月份這個月份應該就可以好我們會盡快來做讓他一到日都有航班往花蓮那台東的部分沒有問題那我知道委員在講的是說希望能夠對票價上面多做一些補貼那這個部分我們也來思考看看要怎麼做"},{"start":25146.408,"end":25147.369,"text":"最近的颱風跟地震確實是造成大家的影響。"},{"start":25170.828,"end":25195.794,"text":"那所以針對在因應這樣子的狀況的時候這個不是增加航班而已你增加航班對於我們很多的選民來講他負擔是重的你光來回就好幾千塊耶所以這個部分要請你們特別去研議那剩下一點時間我另外關心一下那個淘機的部分那這個淘機的部分呢"},{"start":25198.535,"end":25226.37,"text":"這個其實我們有實地的去去勘查那因為像比如說以去年的新聞來說淘機的這個國際排名有連四年下滑從13名掉到82名但今年有稍微再往前了那其實其實在所有的檢討很多的原因裡面呢有一個很重要的關鍵就是在整個機場的服務工作我們是仰賴一群沒有經過完整禮儀教育訓練的保全"},{"start":25227.671,"end":25253.433,"text":"我覺得機場它是國門那我們不管是國內的民眾要出國或者是國外的民眾要來台灣旅遊大家都是懷著一顆開心的心情但是光是今年我們實地這個觀察的結果就是去我看到的一個狀況在這個簡易的部分在裡面大家就一群這個"},{"start":25255.356,"end":25255.836,"text":"這個態度上當然是不行的"},{"start":25283.73,"end":25294.922,"text":"這是很誇張那我們站在就是已經要出關了那總要找一下家人打個電話在哪裡也過來你不可以站在這裡為什麼"},{"start":25296.209,"end":25319.763,"text":"沒有講原因啊他說我為什麼不能站在這裡他說你站在這裡你就要被罰錢我說你恐嚇嗎這是你們在恐嚇民眾嗎就是這樣子的態度所以我覺得大家我說這樣子的保全的同仁是不是因為穿的那個制服感覺自己很像FBI就可以就可以這樣子去大吼大叫"},{"start":25320.583,"end":25338.729,"text":"我覺得這樣的心態我是很不能接受那很多民眾也都來跟我們投訴好所以這個部分我想這個特別提出來不是穿了制服就很帥就很有威嚴這樣的態度我們一定會要求機場公司要去檢討我覺得其實董事長他很認真我必須要在這裡作證就是說"},{"start":25344.557,"end":25371.183,"text":"我有反應給董事長他真的就自己換上便服然後再巡視看看到底哪裡有問題但是問題是如果董事長跟這個得標的公司怎麼講他們都不聽的話或者我不曉得這家公司有什麼問題他們這麼有辦法可以都標到這麼大的案子好幾億但是做出來的品質卻是給台灣扣分"},{"start":25372.933,"end":25391.552,"text":"誰飆到我都沒有意見但是機場是台灣的門面他們的工作其實已經不是說要管人家而是服務的一環所以這個部分要拜託你們要好好的盯一下到這個教育訓練的部分"},{"start":25398.673,"end":25416.52,"text":"我覺得教育訓練當然一定要加強還有你們可以參考一下這個我覺得農業部他很好他們我們反映之後檢疫的那個部分他們馬上就是如果有問題他們在這個履約上就是看要一定要罰扣一定的金額的價金"},{"start":25417.841,"end":25417.921,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25435.083,"end":25438.925,"text":"接下來邀請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在現場接下來邀請黃國昌委員"},{"start":25476.266,"end":25479.771,"text":"謝謝主席：邀請陳部長、任務公室署長"},{"start":25494.243,"end":25503.53,"text":"兩位好先請教一下署長觀光署升格週年我們花了269萬辦了一個觀光之夜飲福龍這場活動你有參加嗎"},{"start":25508.814,"end":25510.735,"text":"我相信溫馨是很溫馨啊花了269萬"},{"start":25526.161,"end":25544.889,"text":"效益如何我們的效益大概都分兩個部分那那個部分我們是跟當地的觀光圈做一些結合實際的費用我還在瞭解我們同時是按照採購法的方式來做處理是啊我沒有質疑你不是用採購法這個絕票金額269萬我已經幫你整理出來了嗎"},{"start":25548.833,"end":25573.007,"text":"那269萬丟下去效益如何還是我們的觀光署很有錢辦活動不用評估效益的委員這個這一點可能誤會了所以我們辦任何的活動其實都還是做效益評估所以我才問你效益如何對效益評估的話我問了第三次我到現在還沒有聽到答案通常我們都是在季節年度的時候再做評估是"},{"start":25574.848,"end":25601.541,"text":"這場我去了什麼時候評估報告會出來我們大概時間上結案大概都有兩個月的時間兩個月的時間我期待看這個結案報告我為什麼這樣講這個是那天的照片因為當你們發邀請函給我的時候我不太喜歡搞那種官樣文章"},{"start":25602.891,"end":25631.144,"text":"去坐在那邊講個話好像很關心我非常不喜歡做這種事情沒有講話啦但我覺得錢花下去要有效果嘛結果你們辦在一個飯店裡辦在一個飯店裡外面真的被這個活動吸引來的人寥寥可數寥寥可數我相信辦活動的人很high啦長官也很high啦但"},{"start":25632.97,"end":25650.65,"text":"我看完了以後我真的不知道這樣子的活動錢是不是有花在包購上是不是符合你們一開始在規劃這個活動的效益我真的看不懂所以我才請教你觀光署是不是預算太多"},{"start":25653.584,"end":25676.505,"text":"本來是一個戶外那因為是颱風之後那個那個我們的所有的這個沙灘那邊還有非常多的漂流木也為了安全所以就移到室內他這時候的選擇也跟委員報告一下他有兩個一個就是停辦一個就是改成室內所以我想說人數的部分確實是沒有當時的預期了"},{"start":25678.666,"end":25705.4,"text":"你看照片就知道了嘛你人也在現場嘛實際的部分我們再統計一下有啦是很嗨啊官員很嗨啊結果去的民眾各位沒多少花了269萬我期待看到你們的成果效益評估啊我算一算啊平均一個人花在一個人身上大概一萬多塊兩萬塊我看完了以後發現我們交通部很有錢啊"},{"start":25706.604,"end":25728.611,"text":"觀光署很有錢錢這樣花的第二個問題再麻煩署長就是回去以後用書面告訴我這個經費編在哪一個預算科目向下這沒問題可以嗎因為我回來了以後我開始檢討這個活動編在哪一個預算科目向下"},{"start":25729.827,"end":25758.82,"text":"我把今年的預算書不是今年要審明年的是去年已經審完今年的預算書我從頭到尾翻我看不到到底編在哪裡那這個資訊對我們來講很重要因為這個預算到底編在哪裡我們這個會期要審預算嘛這個會期既然要審預算那就要負責任的審啊秉持著我們卓榮泰院長所講的公帑不可以隨便浪費啊的精神"},{"start":25759.721,"end":25788.486,"text":"但我們如果要負責任的做到這件事情那我第一件事情就要知道到底變在哪裡這樣子我們在審預算的時候才有一個依據那第二個事情可能你們在提出評估報告的時候順便稍微說明一下因為連卓榮泰院長自己都說了標案集中在特定的場上不是一件健康的事情特別是你們在辦這些活動的時候全部都是限制型的標案"},{"start":25789.625,"end":25803.846,"text":"全部都是限制型的標案所以請署長看一下在這場活動的廠商我大概稍微整理了一下過去這四年限制型的標案觀光公署的部分拿到五千七百萬"},{"start":25805.257,"end":25820.775,"text":"達到五千七百萬成效如何因為剛剛您說嘛每個活動辦完以後你們都會有成效評估嘛一樣拜託你一個禮拜之內把過去辦的這些活動的成效評估都送到我辦公室這樣可以嗎"},{"start":25823.669,"end":25845.099,"text":"可以嗎 可以喔 好 謝謝你不好意思那最後時間的關係啦最後一個雖然後面沒其他委員不要耽誤太多的時間我想要請教部長一個問題就是說因為我覺得政治人物當地方爭取經費這真的是天經地義啦那我真的第一次看到一個公共工程委員會的主委"},{"start":25846.019,"end":25870.064,"text":"在他的臉書上面自我宣傳說他幫宜蘭爭取預算宜蘭鐵路高架化地方配合款因為曾經得的努力所以本來105億現在下降到57.23億然後用地的取得跟基地的費用改由中央全額負擔當我看到一個政務官"},{"start":25870.964,"end":25874.805,"text":"我們會有一套原則並且去評估地方的這個財務的狀況來做整體的討論所以有一個清楚的標準嗎"},{"start":25898.905,"end":25921.304,"text":"原則上有一個清楚的標準不過也要看每一個地方的狀況不太一樣沒有關係我不要耽誤其他委員的時間第一個我需要知道您剛剛所講的原則是什麼第二個你一直強調原則代表例外嘛那例外的情況是什麼我要說的只有一件事"},{"start":25922.731,"end":25943.702,"text":"在執政的時候在施政的時候就不要大小眼用一樣的標準我們地方建設不分藍綠嗎不會因為黨派而有所不同嗎宜蘭縣現在是國民黨在執政是我了解所以我才說中央不管如何用一樣的標準去做要不要看到一個政務官幫他"},{"start":25944.932,"end":25953.647,"text":"就特定的縣市爭取預算自己在臉書上面自我宣傳這真的還是讓人覺得非常的驚奇啊可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":25961.862,"end":25977.354,"text":"臨戴化委員臨戴化委員臨戴化委員臨戴化委員臨戴化委員不在現場接下來邀請高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在現場接下來邀請林一錦委員"},{"start":25978.375,"end":25999.776,"text":"臨沂警委員臨沂警委員臨沂警委員不在現場張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在現場蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現場鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在現場林楚英委員"},{"start":26003.96,"end":26021.134,"text":"臨儲營委員臨儲營委員臨儲營委員不在現場．接下來邀請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在現場．接下來邀請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在現場．接下來邀請邱志維委員"},{"start":26034.54,"end":26058.653,"text":"好 謝謝主席也請陳部長請陳部長我來示範一下什麼叫5加1300秒的精準質詢5加1 4加1嗎我們都是300秒時間搞我就會停止質詢這個立法院不能說是在這邊委員會都有它的規定還能夠講到保我是不會啦"},{"start":26064.348,"end":26084.295,"text":"謝謝部長 部長我之前跟你反映貨櫃車限重的問題會影響到南部金屬扣件螺絲葉子 增加他們成本當然是有過半跟沒過半的差別 但是直接衝擊就是他們的螺絲葉不僅清廉之道"},{"start":26085.447,"end":26100.565,"text":"所以這種情況之下這個營運成本增加我想他們已經有點情緒有他們有透過很多管道來反映公務局的說法怎麼樣公務局最新的政策怎麼樣高公局來局長各位報告"},{"start":26105.592,"end":26107.033,"text":"所以不會對他們造成這個漁運成本的增加"},{"start":26125.736,"end":26149.217,"text":"對,就是他們現在表達的那個意見的部分應該是不會的你去跟他們座談一下吧我們會有同仁會去跟他們特別溝通我有特別要求高工局也好,公路局也好,跟業者要特別溝通跟螺絲公會去溝通,讓他們了解這個政府的政策不會影響到他們的經濟身份上漲那也要拜託委員幫忙促成這個溝通我已經開過很多協調會了那就是你們政策要支持的"},{"start":26150.658,"end":26178.529,"text":"那另外這個各縣市都在爭取這個這個鐵路的立體化立體化大概縣說大概是這個高價化你如果是低價化這個成本增加很多所以每一個縣市都在爭取當然我已經提案要求到這個從橋頭從南直從左沿道橋頭這部分可行性研究正在評估那我希望在針鏈一樣到路竹為什麼"},{"start":26179.409,"end":26200.371,"text":"因為未來岡山跟鹿竹就是S狼帶的核心那岡山加鹿竹有九處的平交道那當然會影響到這個競爭能力阿所以這部分我開兩次會三次會阿所以這個要完工阿大概要2041年2041年我差不多要八十歲了"},{"start":26203.491,"end":26225.164,"text":"事實要2041年這個部分請部長能夠去了解一下每一個縣市條件不一樣你要優先順序要把它先抓出來報委員您交代我們一定會積極處理但現在是高雄市政府還沒有把可行性研究還沒啟動我說深列到岡山延長到岡山到鹿竹"},{"start":26225.944,"end":26232.188,"text":"因為這個案子是從左營到橋頭在進行中針列一項到橋頭到岡山跟路竹還有一個問題就是"},{"start":26241.124,"end":26259.743,"text":"跟民航局就是臺南機場到馬公當然航班有限大概最晚大概4點就結束了那這部分很多臺南市相信說我的選區已經北高雄嘛北高雄比方說自己人我們很多是要陪好人要回去"},{"start":26263.166,"end":26265.628,"text":"臺鐵最近部長有沒有做過"},{"start":26283.321,"end":26309.386,"text":"臺鐵有欸臺鐵有喔有有有當然有民眾反映喔臺鐵那個語言播報的順序當然你要這個用臺灣的這個國家語言發展的這個政策來看他播報有他的順序嘛像高鐵都是這個國語、臺語、客語再到這個英文那臺鐵是這個國語、英語然後再到臺語"},{"start":26310.865,"end":26312.386,"text":"好我們來研究看怎麼樣來修正"},{"start":26340.947,"end":26341.107,"text":"假車牌的問題"},{"start":26361.36,"end":26374.225,"text":"假設擺問題這個交通部應該更了解一下另外臺61就是南延到高雄這部分目前在可行性研究可行性評估當中那什麼時候送證院"},{"start":26375.492,"end":26375.612,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":26403.372,"end":26427.017,"text":"登記質詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員尤浩、麥玉珍、林怡瑾、劉建國、王宏威、傅坑祺委員所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":26432.153,"end":26433.274,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26448.08,"end":26463.114,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:02 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劉啟孝副司長 能源署的署長 劉正偉署長 台灣電力公司的董事長 曾文森董事長 總經理王耀廷總經理好 那我們現在就先請經濟部郭智輝部長進行報告"},{"start":1860.526,"end":1886.207,"text":"主席．各位委員先進．今日應貴院邀請．就我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃．這個命題進行專案報告．敬請各位委員先進．不吝示教．能源政策以穩定供電為前提．並跟隨世界發展綠能的潮流．"},{"start":1887.657,"end":1907.004,"text":"我國能源轉型政策以再生能源為主軸主要產業出國的時候再生能源也已成為生產的要素同時搭配低碳天然氣發電並推動地熱、氫能等新能源的利用穩定供電、多元綠能、減煤減碳"},{"start":1916.693,"end":1926.44,"text":"是國際趨勢一致現階段已依政策目標定期檢討推動成果以及加強做法"},{"start":1928.496,"end":1935.862,"text":"能源配比的現況2023年能源發電佔比為燃煤42.2%燃氣39.5%核能6.3%再生能源9.5%其中含光電4.6%風力2.2%其他再生能源2.7%"},{"start":1953.055,"end":1961.618,"text":"2024年1到8月發電佔為燃煤40%燃氣41.5%核能5.4%再生能源10.5%其中光電5.2%風力2.6%其他再生能源為2.7%"},{"start":1973.956,"end":1990.945,"text":"未來能源配比將於2030年達到燃氣五成再生能源三成燃煤二成的目標能源配比跟當年度的用電量也就是分母有關每年都會變動"},{"start":1992.597,"end":2019.628,"text":"政府會定期檢討電力供需狀況並規劃整體電源開發持續於2030年綠電達到3成燃煤從現在的4成減少到2成燃氣維持5成為目標來努力再生能源推動的進度過去幾年世界各國受到疫情以及戰爭的影響"},{"start":2021.878,"end":2046.682,"text":"導致缺工缺料以及通膨的現象．亦造成台灣綠電推動進度未如預期政府將誠懇面對問題並有效有效率的解決這個困難那麼接著為各位報告這個幾種發電的方式第一太陽光電截至2024年8月已經設置"},{"start":2050.451,"end":2050.612,"text":"13.627GW"},{"start":2053.479,"end":2082.41,"text":"屋頂型光電已提前達標並將持續優先推動可置於農業、工業、工友以及民間屋頂並透過增訂再生能源發展條例12-1條規定一定規模新建物應設置光電地面型光電應開發時較易涉及環境生態社會溝通、土地使用"},{"start":2083.894,"end":2107.994,"text":"行政程序以及地方政府態度等多項議題都需要突破政府已優先推動餘電共生研議適當回饋機制申請流程公開透明來提升設置的進度將目標調整為2026年太陽光電可以完成20GW"},{"start":2110.669,"end":2129.673,"text":"離岸風電目前已完成安置372座風機其中以併網容量達到2.94GW目前為全球排名第7位成為全球少數離岸風電突破2GW的國家後續2.66GW的風機設置量經濟部均掌握各風場的失控狀態"},{"start":2138.424,"end":2152.873,"text":"預計於2026年底陸續完成此外2026年後區塊開發已完成第一期第二期的選商目標2028年裝置容量累積可以達到7.9個地熱"},{"start":2157.625,"end":2174.552,"text":"本部地礦中心就具有專警資料以科學模型推估1至3公里深至淺層地熱潛能運量只有1.7GW但3至6公里深的深層地熱運量運償量約為40GW"},{"start":2177.913,"end":2188.336,"text":"臺電以及中油公司現在正透過開磚申請實際驗證地熱運產量截至2024年8月以宜蘭清水、臺東金輪等地累積設置達6個淺層地熱案場後續持續於全臺包括大屯山、花蓮瑞穗等10大地熱淺能區進行探勘"},{"start":2206.687,"end":2226.336,"text":"探明地熱淺能加速淺層地熱開發此外更要積極佈局深層地熱開發中國公司10月14號將會於宜蘭園山開始專探我國第一口4000公尺地熱申請未來將引進國際深層地熱技術進行技術驗證以及建置示範案場"},{"start":2235.325,"end":2248.159,"text":"水利發電,截至2024年8月,水利發電已於德基水庫、翡翠水庫等大型水庫設置發電設備。近兩年,水利發電量平均均為48億度,約佔全國發電量的1.7%。"},{"start":2252.924,"end":2265.017,"text":"因今年考慮環境衝擊已不再推動大型水庫後續將優先推動對環境影響比較低的小水利發電23個案場也將與農業部盤點小水利潛力"},{"start":2269.582,"end":2287.45,"text":"透過小水利發電設備設置的指引．引導業者透過環境低衡衝擊的模式進行暗場開發．同時透過公民電廠方式鼓勵社區民眾參與設置．發展在地資源建立社區綠經濟模式"},{"start":2290.929,"end":2309.01,"text":"經濟部的能源政策是依照現行法規依法行政並將持續關注新能源科技對於核電的使用必須符合法規且審慎考量核安、核廢料的處理以及社會共識等問題"},{"start":2310.276,"end":2331.619,"text":"政府對核能政策是開放的．經濟部會關注國家發展情勢．定期滾動檢討．能源轉型推動成果．以及加強做法。．台電公司也會持續關注未來各項科技的發展．包括新核能技術在內．不會預設任何的立場．"},{"start":2332.955,"end":2359.265,"text":"非核不是神主牌依法行政經濟部尊重各界對核能的討論但必須要合法現行核子反應器設施管制法等相關法規中明確規範核電廠的使用年限經濟部作為行政機關會依法行政現在生下核三廠二號機預計運轉到明年2025年的5月"},{"start":2363.7,"end":2389.36,"text":"我們也需要滿足核安、核廢料以及社會共識台灣地狹人稠且地處地震帶上若要繼續使用核能發電需審慎考量核安以及核廢料的處理問題並且確認台灣民眾對核能發電議題有無共識相信各位委員也能夠認同"},{"start":2390.839,"end":2412.836,"text":"政府已經有完善電源開發規範未來電源開發規劃除再生能源且為因應再生能源大量設置及再生能源所產生的間歇性政府與規劃建置快速啟停的新型燃機基礎作為橋接的能源"},{"start":2414.045,"end":2441.882,"text":"到2033年大型機組累計僅增加1786萬千瓦包括台電以及民營等新增燃氣機組此外政府亦積極推動儲能電池以及抽蓄水利等儲能設施以快速反應的速度加上發電量能的這個域度維持供電的穩定"},{"start":2444.534,"end":2447.849,"text":"我國能源轉型政策與再生能源為主軸"},{"start":2449.266,"end":2476.202,"text":"且推動增氣減煤的策略．努力降低燃煤機組的發電佔比．同時推動地熱等新能源利用．以達到2030年再生能源發電佔比．30%的淨零轉型階段性目標．並有足夠的綠電．滿足我國產業出口的需求以上報告 敬請指教．並祝各位身體健康 萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2483.055,"end":2501.007,"text":"補充介紹到場的委員 林黛華委員我們先來處理上次議事錄有無錯誤請問兩位委員好 無錯誤我們議事錄就確定那現在請我們臺電公司的曾文森董事長進行報告"},{"start":2505.53,"end":2520.442,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早安那今天應貴院的邀請來臺電就能源的政策執行的情形進行專案報告那以下依據以下幾點請各位委員先進不吝指教"},{"start":2521.062,"end":2541.451,"text":"首先第一個是有關於台電系統的整個發電結構占比就是台電系統的發電結構占比跟整個全國系統來講大概是蠻相近的不過有一些部分的不同就是台電本身的燃煤的發電占比現在已經降到34%那燃氣是提升到44%"},{"start":2543.012,"end":2566.149,"text":"那核能跟再生能源的占比大概都相同跟全國統計約一致那核能是7%這是2030的統計那再生能源是9.9%那最主要的工作是臺電其實是一個主要的電力的輸送的公司也是發電的公司那我們在強化電網韌性部分的工作我們在輸電的部分在2022年提了一個電網強硬計畫"},{"start":2568.911,"end":2589.851,"text":"包含分散強固跟智慧化方向來進行這是我們熟悉的電網強韌計畫那除了這個以外今年度以來部長也指示臺電公司必須針對就是比較是屬於民生部分的配電的高敏感區以及設備老化的問題要進行配電系統的穩定供電的專案"},{"start":2591.653,"end":2598.343,"text":"要加速匱限跟設備汰換等等的預防措施增加民生變電站來因應我們民生用電的成長那這些相關的計畫原定我們10年的電網強生計畫我們會將跟民生比較相關的項目"},{"start":2607.476,"end":2625.818,"text":"先提出來優先完成關鍵區跟民生相關的工程在2028年來完成那對於未來電力的需求的部分那台電公司其實是有針對我們每年定期檢討電力供需的情形那包括我們"},{"start":2626.639,"end":2639.706,"text":"仔細的去估列幾個可能重要發展的用電產業例如半導體產業跟AI等等的用電來進行估計我們規劃了大型的機組會增加1860萬千瓦那也會加速的來擴大再生能源的電網工程滿足未來的用電負擔"},{"start":2648.271,"end":2663.768,"text":"那在整個大型火力的執行狀況來講我們這幾年快速的汰換了一些燃煤機組也做了燃煤機組的空污管制所以台電的固定污染源排放在過去這幾年已經降低了65%就超過2%的那個排放量的減少"},{"start":2668.252,"end":2683.412,"text":"就大的方向來講我們要因應全球的近年排放趨勢供應鏈減碳的壓力政府已經訂定了先低碳後零碳的整個策略架構我們會在2030前增加快速我們會快速佈建低碳"},{"start":2683.912,"end":2711.957,"text":"的燃氣發電取代高碳的燃煤跟燃油發電那同時我們現在是同時在推動大潭新達臺中大林通宵二期協和跟臺中二期這一些燃氣計畫那同時也開放民間來參與能源的投資採購民營的電力那這樣子的狀況之下扣除我們將大型一年線廚藝的機組仍然是可以滿足用電的需求"},{"start":2712.897,"end":2735.98,"text":"就再生能源的部分,臺電公司最主要的工作項目其實是提供電網讓更多的民間業者可以參與再生能源因為再生能源本身就是一個分散式的電源在全世界都是由各個不同的不管是大型、中型、小型的民間力量來做投資來加速它再生能源的發展"},{"start":2736.74,"end":2756.974,"text":"臺電最主要的工作就是能夠友善綠電的並往環境除此之外臺電自己本身也進行再生能源的開發那在自主開發上面大概有三個面向就是光電風電那風電分陸運跟離岸風電那同時還有地熱那開發的形式上面除了我們自己開發以外"},{"start":2758.135,"end":2769.346,"text":"我們也會進行合作開發就包含跟民間的再生能源業者共同來合作開發除了這個以外我們也針對一個比較前瞻型的再生能源型態會進行一些示範應用的努力"},{"start":2774.071,"end":2785.681,"text":"那到目前為止,就是整個我們再生能源的台電自己直接的投資那個光電大概是291M、陸域風電有439M、然後離岸風電、釋放岸產和離產岸產總共有400M等等這些成績我們會繼續努力的擴大再生能源的掌握"},{"start":2797.211,"end":2821.607,"text":"除了這個以外在再生能源的強化電力網的成果的部分其實臺電公司有推動46項的再生能源加強電力網的工程工作那現在已經完成25項那增加了4.6G的電網容量那其餘21項工程預計會在2027年底全數完成那在這個剩下的21項工程裡面有關於我們漁電工程等等的相關計畫都會在2024、2025陸陸續續完成那除了這個以外"},{"start":2827.371,"end":2845.668,"text":"我們接下來還有包含離岸風力的發電的加強電力網計畫也會在2026年到2031年增加併網的容量達到10GW那除了這些再生能源的開發以外其實最重要的是台灣的整個再生能源的發展"},{"start":2846.414,"end":2868.723,"text":"以及民間運用的狀況事實上已經開始出現一個新的趨勢而這個趨勢是非常重要的就是我們再生能源的等購費率事實上一直都維持著一個水準甚至是逐步下降那在2030年以前國內的產業對再生能源的需求已經明確的提升那從台電的統計數據來看有一個比較清楚的數據我們事實上台電的電網"},{"start":2874.625,"end":2887.608,"text":"的再生能源轉工是在2020年的5月開始有比較明顯的數字那到2023年就去年底我們再生能源的轉工數量已經達到17億度那我們預計今年會達到35億度也就是說2024年的轉工再生能源的量的成長會達到100%以上所以我們看到這種轉工的量"},{"start":2904.653,"end":2908.276,"text":"臺電在這些轉工等等相關的一些配合性的工作也會持續來進行"},{"start":2934.016,"end":2954.494,"text":"那大家國人或是立法院都非常關心有關於台電公司針對核能發電執行的現況與規劃那我在這邊要跟各位報告因為台電公司是個事業單位我們就是依照現在的相關法令來進行那目前運轉中的核能機組有核三的二號機那它的運轉年限是到2025年的5月17號"},{"start":2956.576,"end":2982.498,"text":"那除了這個以外,其實台電現在正在加速推動就是用過核燃料的中期乾式儲存等等的計畫那這個部分包括核一跟核二的乾儲,我們都已經開始在加速推動也希望儘快能夠將堆在爐心裡面的用過的核燃料能夠取出啟動和後端的相關工作"},{"start":2983.238,"end":3011.116,"text":"除此之外我們最後要跟各位委員報告就是政府的能源政策是以穩定供電為優先那要兼顧減少排碳跟降低空污排放等等的目標那我們配合整個政府的政策我們是採取先低碳後零碳的策略來規劃那2030前我們會持續推動低碳燃氣發電的計畫那也會優先設置成熟的再生能源投入儲能系統建置同時"},{"start":3012.557,"end":3027.672,"text":"也會提前布局投入前瞻技術的研發跟示範計畫那2030到2050年會擴大我們的再生能源的繼續擴大設置那同時會導入商業化的零碳多元綠能的電源技術"},{"start":3028.593,"end":3043.383,"text":"那也會積極推動電能調頻跟負載的轉移的複合式儲能運用不管是抽取水利或是電池都將會是這整個電網能夠發揮功能的一部分那我們會持續關注各種能源技術的發展"},{"start":3044.644,"end":3061.197,"text":"維持供電穩定達成進行轉型的目標那穩定供電是台電公司責無旁貸的使命但是要有充足而且品質優良的電力供應需要足夠的電力建設從發電廠、變電所、從輸電到配電的線路等等這些電力設備都必須實體存在"},{"start":3068.479,"end":3092.839,"text":"而這些實體存在的電力建設才有辦法提供台灣穩定且品質高的電力供應而這些電力建設事實上常常因為它是零幣設施沒有辦法得到大家的支持我們希望台灣如果要有穩定的電力供應也希望國民大眾能夠支持台電進行電力建設的推動"},{"start":3094.336,"end":3112.341,"text":"讓我們有電廠能夠發電有電網能夠送電達成穩定供電的使命以上報告進行質詢謝謝好那現在進行詢答在委員詢答前本席先做一些宣告"},{"start":3114.977,"end":3115.277,"text":"有請部長請郭部長"},{"start":3142.943,"end":3144.724,"text":"報告委員 這個命題是我們沒有確定的一個命題"},{"start":3167.185,"end":3191.454,"text":"所以這是郭部長的命題還是經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題報告委員這個是我在這個師百名夫的這個他的論壇上面我們大概有很多的這個學者專家那麼他們討論出來因為這個綠能的部分所以這是郭部長跟學者專家的命題還不是經濟部的命題是"},{"start":3196.136,"end":3212.865,"text":"那這個我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性但是可以考評估啦不過呢光是本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景台澎海纜在18年前規劃2005年我們的海纜長度是58.8公里陸纜是9.1這樣的預算157.3億"},{"start":3221.87,"end":3229.801,"text":"耗時13年,那菲律賓到台灣300公里,距比海澎、海瀾,我只講海瀾,就要多5倍那這興建到底還要多久?那這個發會沒有千億以上"},{"start":3237.992,"end":3250.139,"text":"是不可能的所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景好那接下來本期再議的就是今天的主題我們石化工業新世青真的要南遷呂宋島嗎部長"},{"start":3253.28,"end":3267.165,"text":"請回應報告委員這些都是一些假設的討論假設那我一樣要問是國部長您的命題經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題現在這個還是停留在討論的階段"},{"start":3268.725,"end":3269.246,"text":"是在經濟部內部討論嗎?"},{"start":3286.918,"end":3313.083,"text":"我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業而且不是只有看台灣這個市場所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力我們必須要讓他的這個各方面的這個材料成本還有這個建廠製造的成本能夠降低部長您針對您這樣的說法是要把新市區整個移到"},{"start":3313.843,"end":3337.649,"text":"改投資建設聽好喔是改投資並建設於呂宋島改投資建設的意思我心思心思確定1068億整個移到呂宋島建設什麼叫改建設就是整個連根拔起所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島嗎所以這是改投資建設呂宋島嗎這是你們的這樣的一個規劃嗎討論嗎"},{"start":3343.63,"end":3368.869,"text":"報告委員我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚那我接了這個新世青的這個案子以後我們要考慮了這樣的一個投資成本下去他有沒有辦法快速的回收那我可能背景你不清楚我就講給你聽中油世青他不像台塑是僅供應我集團內的石化裂解"},{"start":3369.349,"end":3382.572,"text":"事件是肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠近40年他扛起了國內石化業的基礎不可諱言他的設備確實是老了所以新事件的規劃自拍板定案部長大年預算從因為拖延從823億延至1062億"},{"start":3389.794,"end":3412.518,"text":"這就是背景好在第二個背景呢在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一週本期不斷的催促行政院終於合併的低碳減排環保智慧化這個智慧化是要減少公安事件的新事情這就是所謂的新事情低碳減排環保智慧化的管理減少公安"},{"start":3413.619,"end":3419.647,"text":"本席還用送高雄一份大禮向陳建仁院長來做感謝所以部長您這邊講的是要讓我們新世親請你再講清楚因為我們現在全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場"},{"start":3430.603,"end":3444.961,"text":"這個實在是太震撼了我只能用震撼兩個字您要是否把這個新世紀所謂的有競爭力是改投資建設整個一道呂宋島嗎"},{"start":3446.961,"end":3463.556,"text":"報告委員是不是移到哪一個地方我想這個都是在所以你確定要移新世青要不要建新世青要不要建新世青要不要建這個我想這個必須是整個的確定那已經確定了他當然就是要建"},{"start":3464.377,"end":3464.777,"text":"我必須要再檢討"},{"start":3482.908,"end":3485.869,"text":"部長 這個投資在哪裡來 全部都在國內本席啪數給你看石化工業雖然狹義 我就救石化工業他的狹義占不到2%的國民生產毛利 沒有錯但是他的覆蓋力是百工百業傳統產業來講 他覆蓋哪裡 請看下表"},{"start":3501.656,"end":3530.464,"text":"有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、人造纖維、七合劑我們每天家裡的裝潢都要七合劑、溶藥都要石化液這都傳統產業好 半導體的原物料6成就是裡面的材料6成來自石化液你電子當中的特用氣體、光眼膜等這有6成半導體的6成 所以說假設你今天是"},{"start":3531.484,"end":3554.191,"text":"認為他沒有競爭力2%不算高然後呢整個要外移那不好意思我的傳統產業半導體全部的石化原料全部都進口這個通膨啊這可是無法無法這是天價好再來我要讓您再了解一下我們的就業人口全台灣"},{"start":3556.131,"end":3580.027,"text":"實化業中上下游的牽動的就業人口有幾萬我高雄市的就業人口的實化業的就業人口有多少10萬嘛是不是10萬部長來我就以報派就好這個台灣實化產業中下游這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的牽動就業人口全台灣45萬"},{"start":3581.528,"end":3608.259,"text":"在高雄我就以氣爆案當中當時有一個報導說我如果關閉所有的管線我直接影響就只有直接影響我石化業高雄就有2.6萬在但是有估計向後連鎖反應會有大概兩倍所以我的就業人口在高雄就會5萬這種是狹隘的石化產業我不講我靠石化產業周邊的所有的外包工程"},{"start":3609.579,"end":3630.787,"text":"好部長這個可嚴肅了那你的石化產業再來講喔如果你認為整個石化產業新世青他要放在哪裡你要演繹新世青確定要做但要演繹我看不出你在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做當時我們也因應石化的我們中油的這個石化產業的高石化來看一下經濟部啊在我們高雄"},{"start":3635.188,"end":3646.372,"text":"因為要高質化所以呢新材料循環產業援軍升級的設置計畫他是呢跟我大林埔千村安置計畫書這件事情是不是要停板因為沒有高質化啦沒有什麼高質化因為你的新世親既然要延宕現在拍板定案而且部長這個是行政院拍板定案的案子"},{"start":3657.717,"end":3676.738,"text":"您說要放到哪裡這要研議這是您部長的意思經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢報告委員我想這個是這樣子就是說這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的"},{"start":3678.34,"end":3683.522,"text":"如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的誰說不能賺錢啊部長剛才我已經爬輸了整個那也就是說光是你要讓石化業那認為不賺錢所以我所有百工百業半導體業的石化原料我的這個所有傳統產業的全部都在進口嗎報告委員那個是中下游我們現在談的這個是上游"},{"start":3703.147,"end":3730.137,"text":"報告部長我們所有石化業全部都是內銷我們只有那個柴油少小的柴油外銷那個量太少全部都內銷部長很明顯你對石化產業完全完全是狀況外的我跟委員報告你現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有七大石化產業你講到中國你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠"},{"start":3731.64,"end":3732.941,"text":"現在請邱毅英委員質詢"},{"start":3764.363,"end":3768.935,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝主席我是不是請一下郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":3780.52,"end":3793.166,"text":"委員早部長早部長我想這個還是幾個時事題這當然跟我們台灣的整體的能源配置是有相關這個總統在國慶晚會拋出的這個祖國論其實引起了非常廣泛的討論那在國慶隔天"},{"start":3803.523,"end":3811.271,"text":"中國就開始一連串的大動作他們在10月14號開始有一個所謂的聯合力艦2024B的軍演範圍那這個軍演當然也"},{"start":3818.677,"end":3833.031,"text":"創下了中國的軍機繞台90架次這樣的一個最高紀錄實在我覺得中國來慶祝中華民國的國慶也是用另外一個方式來幫助我們不過與此同時"},{"start":3835.014,"end":3856.328,"text":"假訊息的散播其實也相當的快速你看到這個在PTT的網站上面一直不斷的講台灣的LNG船呢這個掉頭就走台灣的LNG船沒有辦法停泊入港所以台灣很快會發生缺天然氣的危機部長你們要不要趁這個時候啊再一次"},{"start":3859.149,"end":3885.75,"text":"來跟台灣的國人做最嚴正的聲明到底這件事情是怎麼一回事報告委員我想這個訊息就是如同您指教的這個是虛假的訊息我們當天早上的這一個船進來主要因為他提早到了他提早到了我那個船塢是沒有辦法讓他進港的所以他才繞出去的這個跟所謂的這個中共來圍台"},{"start":3888.692,"end":3915.205,"text":"我講是沒有正相關的其實中國一直不斷的透過各種的形式創造各式各樣的假議題一直講說台灣會有缺天然氣的危機因為環台演習所以LNG船就掉頭就走我覺得像這一些即時的假訊息阻止甚至我今天早上看到新聞調查局已經完全掌握了"},{"start":3915.725,"end":3916.365,"text":"所以現在我們的天然氣儲存量是足夠的嗎?足夠的"},{"start":3941.22,"end":3954.002,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3955.718,"end":3980.11,"text":"這個印太戰略智庫成立酒會那聽說您在裡頭談到了這個印太的合作包括美國日本菲律賓等等這些國家的這些戰略合作上面你有提到規劃要在菲律賓設電廠有這件事情嗎部長能不能請您說明一下報告委員因為在這個成立大會的時候啊"},{"start":3980.55,"end":3995.537,"text":"那麼之前的這個日本駐台大使還有美國駐台大使都有在講就是說大家都是區域聯盟那麼對這個所有的這個命題都應該彼此去關心那麼我們在這個民主同盟的時候我們討論到這個能源的這個問題"},{"start":3997.898,"end":4016.396,"text":"民主同盟的時候討論能源的問題那比如說你們討論了哪一些這些的能源的議題有沒有包括這些電廠的設置啦或者是綠電、氫能各式各樣的碳封存各式各樣的這些能源議題相互的合作當場是沒有"},{"start":4016.596,"end":4039.455,"text":"但是在之前的時候我們大家都彼此有交換過這個學者專家都有在討論那身為這個這個區域聯盟的一份子但是彼此對互相的這個綠能因為綠能是2050年淨零減碳最重要的一個命題所以我們在探討說綠能啊大家如果做的話可以互相支援這樣"},{"start":4040.715,"end":4041.415,"text":"台電持反對的立場"},{"start":4066.809,"end":4083.352,"text":"你們對於這個所謂的區域聯盟討論能源議題上面這個看法是什麼那個跟委員報告那個減碳是全球性的事情而且現在都有非常多新的電力技術在發展都在倡議要全球合作"},{"start":4084.173,"end":4109.832,"text":"所以其實台電公司對於所有新的技術發展其實都有在研究那這種海底電纜的技術其實剛才也提到現在交流電的技術已經交流電的海底電纜其實已經都在運用像我們離岸風電就是海底電纜那這個比較長程的是要用直流電的電纜就是高壓直流電纜其實我們有在研究當中那它如果普及應用成本下降其實它也是一個未來我們會採取的電網建設的方式"},{"start":4113.334,"end":4129.589,"text":"未來會有台電來做嗎我國際合作就不一定是有台電來做因為台電是國營公司啊國際合作需要更多的彈性我想這個要請可能可能不見得台電來幫忙瞭解這個是沒有問題的但是是一個怎麼樣的合作架構我想這個還不確定"},{"start":4131.397,"end":4147.457,"text":"那我可不可以簡單白話的再問一次齁這件事情上面應該還是在主要還是在研議的階段或者是說大家還在意見交流的階段嗎是不是這樣部長現在是確實是在意見交流的階段"},{"start":4148.183,"end":4176.2,"text":"好 如果是這樣的話我覺得很多的話其實不用講得太前面啦部長還在意見交流的階段其實你也不用講得太具體因為這個很可能是您個人的想法不代表政府的立場也不代表你們現在的規劃建制是已經到了一個成熟的階段所以我覺得民主同盟的這一些包括能源問題的交流是好事但是有一些話其實是不用講得太前面啦"},{"start":4177.38,"end":4201.908,"text":"謝謝委員執教來那個部長您先休息一下我要接下來請教台電這個我還是要在對於台電公司表達感謝這一次山陀而颱風來對於高雄沿海地區所造成的這個損害台電的同仁不眠不休大概三天不眠不休我知道董事長您也在那裡住了三天全程的在那裡盯場不過"},{"start":4204.329,"end":4219.069,"text":"台電現在我知道你們要推這個所謂的防災型微電網推動計畫對不對過去你們好像在阿里山已經有推動成功嘛在台東是不是沒有沒有完成因為聽說地方政府"},{"start":4220.151,"end":4222.092,"text":"臺電公司能夠把這個所謂的防災行為電網推動計畫直接深入到高雄的山區"},{"start":4241.742,"end":4262.353,"text":"跟委員報告我們各個縣市都有做評估因為上次的颱風開明的時候山區很嚴重這一次山坨是平地很嚴重海邊很嚴重但是每一次只要有風災來山區都很嚴重山區那個要救援要花很多時間所以我們真的覺得微電網是一個好的方法"},{"start":4262.873,"end":4277.97,"text":"那主要是做在就是他的收容中心那讓他能夠有電那這一個部分只要地方政府能夠選定地點然後我們來跟台電商議那我們一起來找裁員來把這些微電網能夠做起來那我想說這是一個台電會去積極推動的一個項目"},{"start":4279.952,"end":4300.526,"text":"董事長我應該是要責成你們台電內部應該其實要有主要的專責計畫去做這件事情不能說你現在告訴我說你還要再去找裁員我覺得你所謂的強韌電網的計畫包括你的防災行為電網這個都應該要包含在裡面對於山區容易受到風災影響來產生停電斷電的這樣的一個危險"},{"start":4304.048,"end":4304.548,"text":"好 我們會加速來推動"},{"start":4339.946,"end":4341.247,"text":"請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請部長請郭部長郭部長早安委員早安部長你知道今天這個聯合報跟中國時報您是最佳男主角"},{"start":4366.604,"end":4392.919,"text":"就是頭板頭你應該是這個所有部會首長裡面上頭板頭最多的我想要請問一下說要從這個菲律賓購買綠電回台部長說你的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例但部長請問您知道說新加坡政府其實尚未同意而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准"},{"start":4393.599,"end":4421.021,"text":"澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工目前僅止於紙上作業您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎報告委員這個是我在這個師範明夫的這個印太的這個智庫上面在智庫上面因為之前有這個日本的大使有美國的大使然後他們在討論這個印太區域民主同盟大家互相的這個幫忙"},{"start":4422.142,"end":4439.216,"text":"那我們在過去大概在討論的時候就是會討論到這個能源的互相彼此照顧的問題所以這個綠電的部分我們認為就是參考這個新加坡這個例子提出來一個所以您覺得它已經是一個案例了一個論述啦我認為這是一個論述啦因為這個東西要形成是必須要"},{"start":4443.399,"end":4454.222,"text":"您這個念頭是即興語言喔不是一個可成熟的方案可以實施的方案只是您純粹即興的語言嗎報告委員我講這個是在討論的一個議題可以討論的一個議題"},{"start":4459.364,"end":4485.749,"text":"也就是說我們居民主同盟的一份子那麼我們來幫助或者是尋求但是您是全國經濟的總舵手你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河你不能把全民當傻瓜如果有盤點過的話部長可以請您揭示一下說大概建制預計要花多少錢那有沒有盤點過說限損率會有多少呢"},{"start":4487.428,"end":4501.514,"text":"對剛才委員執教的這個我輕易發言我對你抱歉那我不應該這輕易的就是還沒有形成這個個案的部分就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法"},{"start":4502.639,"end":4509.143,"text":"那對這一點我比較沒有經驗所以我對我的這個發言我感到抱歉不過這樣的一個議題我個人認為是可以討論的我是可以討論的即使我是部長我也認為關心國內的這個綠能具有競爭力讓國內的廠商在做出口的時候他可以有充分的綠能而且2050年所以本席不反對 完全不反對"},{"start":4529.436,"end":4547.111,"text":"但是我也覺得說間接您是不是承認說台灣缺電沒有台灣的電絕對沒有缺電這個我再重新再跟委員報告是不是可以告訴我們台灣電力的真相呢不是我現在是這樣子我跟委員報告就是說我們現在努力的目標"},{"start":4548.012,"end":4551.654,"text":"就是說讓所有的業者所有的利用台灣的電的業者用電無率用電無率但是你說您為了2030年的這個目標我就覺得很懷疑啊你為什麼要捨禁求遠呢上次本席問你說假設重啟核能要多久你說3至5年3至5年才有可能達成這2030的目標你要想這個海底電纜"},{"start":4574.905,"end":4599.327,"text":"剛才台電的這個董事長有講他說高壓直流電就是要用這個海底電要用高壓直流電然後雖然高壓直流電的這個限損率只有交流電的一半但是到了台灣你還是要換交流電啊那目前不曉得部長知不知道因為南電北送的問題台灣台電電損一年有幾億度電您知道嗎"},{"start":4600.708,"end":4614.188,"text":"這個我想這個都在控制範圍之內我跟委員報告剛才那個我跟您報告台底電纜的部分我跟你報告不是我們台電去做了也不是我們去做了這個就是會有專家的廠商他們會來做"},{"start":4615.049,"end":4621.573,"text":"那他也要會賺錢他才能做阿我先告訴您台電每年的限損率是95億度電限損率是3.5%依照現在工業用度每度電4.3元的話年損是400億欸"},{"start":4631.48,"end":4644.466,"text":"四百億從台灣南電北送就要年損四百億那從菲律賓送上來的電距離是一整個台灣的長度部長有換算過說這樣子我們要損失多少電多少錢嗎我們負擔得起嗎"},{"start":4647.507,"end":4661.714,"text":"報告委員這一個的漏死這個是科學的問題那根據專家的報告就是在討論上面專家的報告大概最多會損失到33%33%對但是我買的電比如說我買的電是到我們家門口的價格"},{"start":4672.323,"end":4678.517,"text":"那您有算過說假設這條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢多少時間成本嗎?"},{"start":4679.648,"end":4692.264,"text":"這一個我想他們專家會提供這個資料我現在還在討論有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎我不能理解的是本席給部長一個數據台澎電纜總長度是67.9公里預算那時候花了將近160億元"},{"start":4700.853,"end":4719.1,"text":"這個從2005年規劃到完成喔耗時13年而且呢那個水深只有一兩百公尺而已台灣跟菲律賓之間的這個水深啊我們是隔著巴士海峽是有海溝的它海底的地形起伏變化深度可能有長達2000至5000公尺"},{"start":4722.722,"end":4723.143,"text":"整個海底電纜"},{"start":4736.118,"end":4738.379,"text":"你這句話本席不完全同意當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短"},{"start":4754.878,"end":4763.289,"text":"你後面你總是要上岸吧你台灣你要在哪裡上岸上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎你光溝通要多久你光這個台澎電纜你蓋好之後要上岸那時候溝通了多久你記得嗎所以我記得所以跟委員報告"},{"start":4772.561,"end":4779.885,"text":"其實整個台澎海嵐溝通的時間比施工期長很多所以你這個海底電纜不用上來嗎?是不是你要從哪裡上來你告訴我你都沒有去思考說他上岸的可能性然後他施工的這個期間跟他的時間成本怎麼跟得上2030嘛我現在要提醒部長的是技術面都先不談"},{"start":4797.654,"end":4816.743,"text":"你只要先去想說您是多麼的重要您是全國經濟的總舵手你一講全部的頭版都是你你會引起多少的不穩定這是本席想要提醒部長的這真的非常的重要而且不只是部長"},{"start":4817.943,"end":4829.008,"text":"總經理,你們了解嗎?菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區,重點區他自己就常常在跳電,他自己就缺電我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回台灣沒有風險嗎?你同意嗎?你身為台電高層你同意嗎?跟委員報告,所有的工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估那你覺得風險高不高?會不會催化我們的國安?"},{"start":4846.036,"end":4852.261,"text":"這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道所以我們暫時還不能回答所以本席的建議是為何不好好的盤點我們國內現行的整個能源結構包括我們的綠能再做改進你要去重啟核能都搞不好更實際更快速為什麼要捨盡求遠呢部長"},{"start":4869.531,"end":4898.503,"text":"報告委員我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續啦齁那我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾我非常抱歉那但是這一個命題如果我們要做這樣子在國外買電的這個這樣的一個方式啊剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠啊或者是不是做電纜這個都有專家會去做我只是說您必須要深思熟慮我現在只是做事前的評估啦齁所以這一點我跟委員報告"},{"start":4899.343,"end":4899.623,"text":"主席有請部長請郭部長"},{"start":4935.506,"end":4961.158,"text":"委員長部長你知道欲蓋彌彰是什麼意思嗎?不是那麼清楚依照教育部國語辭典想要遮掩反而更加顯明那我告訴部長經濟部最近就完美示範什麼叫欲蓋彌彰我想請問部長來看看頭影片這三個會議記錄上請問部長被塗黑的主席是誰?"},{"start":4963.886,"end":4988.848,"text":"請問被塗黑的主席是誰?經濟部給我的喔?我所知啊,給我的是誰?我想請問部長這名字是髒字嗎?見不得人嗎?還是幹了什麼違法犯紀的事損害國家利益所以要把名字遮起來?這名字有這麼髒嗎?經濟部給我資料不敢給現在我請你公布這個見不得光的名字可不可以公布起來?"},{"start":4990.865,"end":5003.771,"text":"不改沒關係曾董事長請您上來請曾董事長這三個名字是不是鄭文森我剛才沒有看到你這個公司來再給你看清楚一點"},{"start":5005.049,"end":5018.456,"text":"就是不就是你 曾文森我們請提供的單位說明你直接回答我告訴你 就是你你相不相信委員你不要這樣子我不知道這個是什麼問題你不知道是誰阿來 沒關係109年3月2號下午1點30分在經濟事檢報室離岸風電規劃場址履約事項審查會記錄你有沒有主持"},{"start":5034.352,"end":5059.428,"text":"你有沒有主持來能源署長可不可以請能源署長回來這資料不是我是不是你都不知道下去了不用了沒關係不用你了連你自己都不敢承認是你自己沒關係我想請問一下部長他不願意回答沒關係白紙黑字那麼清楚沒關係我不問部長你沒有責任擔當你就下去部長請問什麼叫此地無銀三百兩你知道意思是什麼嗎"},{"start":5061.343,"end":5090.029,"text":"就是欲蓋彌彰部長我再告訴你貴部偉大欲蓋彌彰的事蹟我跟經濟部索取達德能源的股權變更的會議紀錄經濟部給了我3月會議紀錄總共8月請問你知道經濟部用多少時間給我8月啊報告委員我不清楚一個月的時間啊8月的會議資料要印一個月啊貴部是我當民代有史以來見過效率最差的部會啦是對不起"},{"start":5090.592,"end":5107.884,"text":"要不要檢討?會不要檢討,直接記公記家講他們為了要所謂的遮蓋能拖就拖來,我跟你講,不只這個更好笑的笑話是我跟他要與能的所謂的股權移轉的相關會議記錄經濟部給我三份,你知道實際上幾份嗎?"},{"start":5113.168,"end":5139.785,"text":"我告訴你四份非常好笑109年3月2號第一份蓋黑的不敢講主席的第二份109年3月17號也是蓋黑的不敢講主席的第四份是110年5月26號蓋黑的唯獨第三份不給我第三份是誰抱歉我就拿到了啊第三份主席就是曾文森啊我跟你講你知道為什麼不敢給嗎"},{"start":5141.718,"end":5164.828,"text":"你知道為什麼不敢給嗎?當然不敢給阿!第三份有塗黑嗎?第三份我自己拿到的!是阿!應該沒有塗黑吧?對!我自己拿到所以沒有塗黑!哇!那你可以調前面的這個三份喔!調前面三份!部長你真的太有擔當了!我是立法委員!我跟經濟部要所知!你給我蓋黑的資料就回頭跟我講說我自己不會去找!"},{"start":5166.128,"end":5184.099,"text":"這個意思嗎?部長我一直很尊敬你 如果是那種態度的話 抱歉沒關係我再來講下一個我問你 你知道為什麼今天三個要蓋黑 到現在曾文森不敢講是他為什麼第三個不蓋黑?我跟你講沒關係 因為你隱藏的文件包含就圖利啦"},{"start":5192.239,"end":5220.644,"text":"至少國庫損失400億啊 這第三份文件啊來 我告訴你沒關係 部長 我知道你打拖延戰術 說過沒有關係啦部長 你不需要為曾文森捍衛到這種程度來 我不跟你吵架 來我想請問您吼 第一份會議紀錄2018年11月2018年4月達得獲得准許經營允能風場 它的股權比例是多少"},{"start":5222.998,"end":5249.797,"text":"我請這個百分之百啦不對告訴我啦對不對當時百分之百對獨資啊來到了2018年11月齁達德開始試股他的股權剩多少73啦不對再告訴我啦到了2020年3月再做股權變更他的股權剩多少48啦"},{"start":5252.145,"end":5270.289,"text":"到了2022年6月他的股權剩多少0啦那我想請問你當初我們經濟部允許他所謂的來去籌設我們的電廠條件是什麼發起人股權不可以4到50%以下吧對不對是不是"},{"start":5273.359,"end":5297.041,"text":"報告委員,在我們的行政契約裡面,針對重大變更要經過經濟部審查...你要講專案申請,我要跟你講專案申請,我先講原始的原則條件就是不能到50%以下,對不對?沒錯吧?在契約裡面是說這些重大變更要經過經濟部審查...原則不能低於經濟部審查以後專案,那是另外一回事,你不要跟我扯東扯西,沒關係,你要跟他講專案,來來來"},{"start":5298.722,"end":5318.903,"text":"這就第三份會議之路為什麼專案出來了為什麼你要遮掩我直接跟你講第三份會議記錄裡面就已經是發現達德從100一直在降降到48的時候經濟部也受不了了經濟部是不是跟他講說你不得再去變更股權結構在第三次會議的時候"},{"start":5320.796,"end":5340.112,"text":"報告委員那時候有發現所以說在取得電業執照之前不可以再去做對很好不可以然後呢所以搭配的有聽我講完齁聽我講完如果違約的罰則是什麼我們那時候有搭配的你跟我講如果違約的罰則是什麼我問你不要問東達西違約的罰則是什麼當時違約除以19.2億的懲罰性違約金沒錯吧"},{"start":5351.618,"end":5376.855,"text":"會議紀錄講的嗎?這個是說如果他沒有辦法完整的話如果我跟你講很簡單他從100變到0你原則要50%現在你跟我專案核准你第三次會議紀錄就覺得不對了來第二個不只喔20億不是最嚴重的來第二個罰則如果違約的話要用迴避成本來短購與能全部電能你知道迴避成本是什麼意思啊?"},{"start":5377.84,"end":5398.012,"text":"報告委員 那個19點迴避成本多少錢迴避成本要根據他當時的台電當年度的迴避成本2.13元啦你連答都答不出來我來當你的職位算了那我想請問你齁你知道光這一條基本上如果用迴避成本來懲罰的話你知道金額可以高達多少你知道嗎我告訴你啦410"},{"start":5402.745,"end":5428.383,"text":"我們本來的價差是5.8塊錢每度如果變迴避成本是2.13光價差3.67元每度而允能風場發電量的預定是22.4億度所以5年算起來是411億元我最後問部長一件事情很簡單第三次的違約的條件構成之後你們到最後股權變零你們有沒有罰有沒有罰20億"},{"start":5432.25,"end":5445.001,"text":"有沒有 有還是沒有啊沒有啦依照規定開罰3.5億3.5億啊 恭喜你啊 好棒啊20億罰3.5億 411億罰3.5億啊沒關係 我現在想請教部長請教部長 我想請教部長來 部長我想請教你我今天就公開質疑啊照檢方的偵辦標準齁"},{"start":5456.231,"end":5476.542,"text":"將近有400億的裁量空間如果今天你說各位跟我裁罰3.5億有沒有圖利問題該罰不罰就是圖利如果委員你認為他是有圖利問題我們就送檢調來因為我送你去贈風部好不好你可以贈風感謝部長有擔當要把我們曾文森移到贈風室移到檢調謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":5487.51,"end":5498.36,"text":"請楊瓊益委員質詢謝主席本席想邀請部長請郭部長"},{"start":5507.583,"end":5533.283,"text":"委員長部長好針對於電呢全球都非常的關注當然我也看到你在努力你在努力呢想盡一切辦法要怎麼樣讓我們台灣的電它是足夠的而且不缺所以呢本席要請教因為我們在媒體上面看到報紙上面看到您說你的發想菲律賓蓋綠電廠菲律賓蓋綠電廠"},{"start":5537.226,"end":5548.714,"text":"您也說了要透過AI的協助在鄰近的菲律賓或者是日本來興建綠電廠再經由船運或者是海底電纜線運回來台灣供需要綠電的廠商來使用這個共享請問第一個議題你預計要投資多少的一個預算規模"},{"start":5560.402,"end":5576.14,"text":"第二個這個發想到底是誰發想的請做說明報告委員這個是我們在做這個民主區域聯盟那麼在分享這個所有的這個綠能也就是說綠能在未來2050年進行檢查這個問題我個人"},{"start":5579.944,"end":5580.084,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5597.555,"end":5613.362,"text":"報告委員這個造成因為我這個講得不夠精準所以造成這個媒體的誤解這個我感到非常的抱歉也對委員感到抱歉那你講是沒這回事囉不是沒有這回事還是只有天荒夜談"},{"start":5614.842,"end":5641.575,"text":"確實我現在在想這個然後我們才提出讓專家繼續來討論學者繼續來研究那麼做這個可行性分析我想我們不會你有KPI嗎可行性分析什麼時候會分析出來我們現在開始尋求這一方面的專家包括台電內部是你預估多久你可以評估要做不做應該會有這樣答案是多久時間呢"},{"start":5644.376,"end":5667.975,"text":"呃 我不知道我們的專家學者可以多快給我 但是這個命令 你的目標呢你的目標呢 我目標當然是越快越好 越快越好是一個月 三個月還是半年 還是一年 報告我們這麼重要的一件事情覺得不是兩三個月可以達到好 那多久時間呢 你的目標 總是要有一個目標 我的經驗吶 是"},{"start":5669.136,"end":5678.418,"text":"我希望半年內可以有一個比較完整的計畫可以產生到時候我會讓委員來指教那我們這個議題就是說您的發想您說是你個人那也希望專家學者大家一起來去討論可行性那預估的時間是半年的時間那在這邊呢本席要繼續跟你討論也就是說您說要從電纜線您說要用船運的這是你的想法"},{"start":5697.822,"end":5722.131,"text":"目前目前我們台電在6月份的時候也曾經說過了也就是如果中南部去輸給北部他的耗損是有困難的是影響很大的光光在我們國內這樣子幾十公里幾十公里就會有困難那麼您的其發其想"},{"start":5723.371,"end":5730.761,"text":"也就是用船運如果又碰到SARS的又碰到疫情的港口封起來又碰到這個特殊狀況的您說要用船運要用電纜線"},{"start":5738.408,"end":5755.212,"text":"報告委員 這個用船運或者用電纜線都是在國際上面那麼有專家學者都已經報告過了也是也實驗在進行中的這個他是實驗進行中不是執行中嘛所以本席要提點你半年內您剛才承諾的半年要去討論是否可涉這一個那麼也就是說在民眾的疑慮你也必須納入去考量"},{"start":5767.014,"end":5782.52,"text":"不要再來一個不同調上一次因為0.95的健保行政院長跟邱部長不同調那麼在現在鄭文森董事長坐在這邊那麼他已經說了你中南部這樣子他耗損是"},{"start":5784.481,"end":5810.759,"text":"是不太可能的在這樣的一個情況之下臺電目前所面臨的困境那又來一個不同調的這個郭部長跟曾董事長本期不希望看到這樣子所以我們提點將你這一些民眾的疑慮希望能夠納入去考慮深思熟慮深思熟慮這是非常的重要所以本期再度請教"},{"start":5811.559,"end":5840.296,"text":"您有這個啟發啟想的目的是要為了讓我們的廠商需要綠電的人能夠能夠得到電還是為了其他的因素呢報告委員我們在這個目前2030年之前的目標我想這個您都非常的清楚但是我們有一個很大的目標是2050年我們必須要淨零減碳這個是全球的議題"},{"start":5841.587,"end":5868.629,"text":"那麼全球的議題在所有民主聯盟裡面的國家大家都在討論如何來互相協助進行檢探我剛才在講的菲律賓設電廠也不見得是我們台電去設電廠我剛才講的海嵐跟海船也不見得是台灣去設海嵐好這就是本期要請問你的您的發想要到菲律賓去建電廠出資者到底是誰是政府還是廠商"},{"start":5871.371,"end":5873.371,"text":"所以我認為這個是這樣的就是說可能我說話不夠精準這一點我很抱歉"},{"start":5895.996,"end":5924.445,"text":"但是實際的狀況就是我剛才所跟您報告的就是這個樣子也就是說我們希望在那邊有電廠可以把綠電我們也可能買得到這一些綠電它的電源供給給這個那我們的目的也是要跟世界接軌嗎未來您的碳的問題要跟環境部再拉嗎再討論所以本期跟一個一個方向也就是說全球您"},{"start":5926.807,"end":5953.639,"text":"發布要擔任部長的時候我非常的讚許因為你說了一句話核電是乾淨的能源不管怎麼樣再轉再變這個是不變的事實因為微軟亞馬遜Google黃元勳他們極力都在買核電對不對是不是是他是啊他是而且黃元勳還講啊黃董還講說核電是非常好的能源是不是"},{"start":5955.311,"end":5964.7,"text":"一段我不知清楚那在這樣的一個情況之下我給你一個數字也就是你在112年你預計要買的是189億度是1047億"},{"start":5972.688,"end":5976.53,"text":"人民的錢113年現在是234億度是1286億在你114年你是要買286億度所以你要花預計是1546億元那在這樣的情況之下我們給你算了這個基本的成本 風電"},{"start":5997.18,"end":6003.522,"text":"風跟光你在112年是5.5元113年現在5.4元你預估的明年度還是5.4元核電的部分成本是1.16元風電4.6億元光電3.75元你們都告訴我們"},{"start":6016.727,"end":6027.034,"text":"我們會逐年的來降但是實際上你所編出來數字會講話他是不降的所以你政策性跟你實質的編列預算他是不吻合的部長本席不希望看到這樣子因為你來自產業你一直點頭我知道你心裡也很急"},{"start":6037.862,"end":6044.967,"text":"也很希望把政策性能夠落實在數字告訴民眾對不對所以我非常理性的跟你討論世界各國都在搶買核電它的價格是多少我國告訴我們是會降但是你沒有降而且你逐步在增加在這樣的情況之下你怎麼對得起我們民眾呢你的政策到底哪裡出了問題你的綠電缺口到底有多大請說明"},{"start":6066.081,"end":6071.705,"text":"降價的部分我們會來努力我想我們會我透過管理的這個機制我會來努力透過管理你怎麼管理你怎麼管理你的編列預算難怪預算要重溢"},{"start":6082.874,"end":6084.395,"text":"請你一家公司的這個價格他基本上就是從他的成本上面來看"},{"start":6111.868,"end":6112.009,"text":"主席"},{"start":6127.825,"end":6142.877,"text":"你現在是經濟部長一個政策你齊發齊想就公布出來讓民眾你來道歉我們很緊張我們也願意接受你的道歉半年後給我們答案第二個你說要從管理所以本期給你一個功課"},{"start":6143.678,"end":6146.36,"text":"你應該因為你說了如果兩年後台電還是漲價你要走人這不是一個有為的政務官應當有的擔當而是你應該要好好的努力去讓他達到怎麼樣的財務健全你認不認同 對不對所以本席給你一個功課你應該要提出財務的管理改革"},{"start":6166.89,"end":6193.098,"text":"電價以及能源發展未來這幾年的明確規劃同時為了全民的事宜你要將兩年內讓台電的財務健全要告訴大家你怎麼具體的作為每年的改革這個方案目標到底是什麼所以我具體建議你2030年要達到這個燃氣的五成再生能源三成每"},{"start":6194.258,"end":6196.219,"text":"是兩層這是你的目標剛才你說的但是你也應該要把光電風電天然氣的電廠接收站以及你有關的這個發電量建設進度你要逐年的公布逐年的公布"},{"start":6211.903,"end":6232.437,"text":"列出你每一年的進度跟這個目標才能夠真正的整體性的一個統整你贊不贊成本席的建議謝謝委員指教那你謝謝我的指教就是認同認同你就是要做你剛剛說的管理本席所給你的建議你多久時間去統整一份資料給我們"},{"start":6234.619,"end":6240.02,"text":"因為你的預算跟實際政策都不同還好現在充裕你趕快趁著充裕的時間趕快去調整好嗎所以剛剛說的那個你多久時間可以這樣計劃給本金我會就那個同意的內容去調整好 那多久時間可以跟我們基本上這個我想這個我還要跟所有的幹部啊對沒關係你給我一個時間然後形成共識這個我看大概也要半年吧"},{"start":6263.188,"end":6287.57,"text":"不用半年啦,你三個月請教你們的這些方案,你不趕快納入,你再半年你又來不及了,你預算執行啊!三個月好不好?好不好?謝謝是怎麼樣?好不好?好,就三個月,部長回去趕快做好,我們希望台電不能倒,但是要讓台電真正,真正它有能量啊!好不好?謝謝"},{"start":6294.806,"end":6308.606,"text":"請鄭正前委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":6316.443,"end":6339.655,"text":"委員好部長好我想說今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比的現行的執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心而且今天開始漲電價我想部長你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在我們的電費漲了多少你知道嗎包含這一波"},{"start":6345.267,"end":6358.257,"text":"不知道我直接跟你講因為時間有限從蔡英文上來之後她是說這10年內都不會漲電價不會大漲電價可是我們平均起來整個平均漲電價已經35.43%產業用電漲了52.36%部長你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大"},{"start":6367.729,"end":6385.552,"text":"這個部分我想這個我們還是考慮到了就是說在整個競爭的要件上面我們讓我們國內的這個用電負責他可以承受的範圍裡面你簡單就是說你覺得這長途算不算大簡單回應就可以因為今天要問的問題很多"},{"start":6387.557,"end":6404.012,"text":"我們的漲幅跟日本韓國比還是低的所以你覺得還不算大所以之後還可能會漲更多是這個潛在的語言的意思是這樣子嗎報告委員沒有這個意思那我覺得沒關係基本上已經漲了52點多%對產業界來講那你覺得漲的還不算比日韓還沒有他們那麼高那聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲不過"},{"start":6412.359,"end":6440.021,"text":"我就這個部分你沒有特別講只是我們擔心那我在想說我今天要講三個主要的問題都跟您是從企業界轉到經濟部長其實有點關係第一個就是針對旅送經濟走廊這個部分在菲律賓發電的問題這第一個第二個是你在我們的專報當中今天的專報當中你直接提到了一個非和不是神主牌你很具體的寫這個東西那第三個部分就是在923的時候我被"},{"start":6440.781,"end":6458.13,"text":"整個離岸風電產業大家認為是九二三之亂的一個部分就國產化鬆綁的問題那這三個部分我覺得它有一個很大的關鍵第一個是可能部長來自於企業界所以你有些創意所以你包括剛你在講菲律賓這個事情你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段對不對"},{"start":6461.984,"end":6463.465,"text":"報告委員,綠電的部分我們是夠的"},{"start":6489.818,"end":6514.498,"text":"那我現在的意思就是說這個是屬於這個民主同盟的國家大家要互相的這個協助那麼朝2050年能夠靈探這樣的一個目標所以這個命題其實在一般的這個論述上面一般的這個所以你的意思是說如果是台灣綠電是夠的所以到飛雲去開發綠電的時候不一定要到台灣用你的意思是這樣子嗎對這個就是"},{"start":6516.52,"end":6542.117,"text":"有很多 包括菲律賓 我想大家很多委員都指教說菲律賓其實電是不夠的所以 那如果是這個部分我在這裡就打住如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用的時候那我就特別關心台灣的電到底夠不夠所以我本來在想的狀態是因為你提到用海底電要用到船來運這個電的部分的時候我本來在想說離台灣最近的"},{"start":6542.757,"end":6563.217,"text":"中國大陸才150公里左右而且是到新竹離科學園區很近如果是因為綠電不夠的時候我覺得這是一個考慮的方向我覺得如果說是以部長企業界的來思考這個問題也許可能會更有彈性而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架是不是有這個可能"},{"start":6564.197,"end":6578.331,"text":"報告委員這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題所以台灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題我想這個謝謝這個委員的這個指教這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你"},{"start":6578.831,"end":6580.352,"text":"你今天也特別提到了非核不是省主牌那針對這個部分因為"},{"start":6594.284,"end":6614.706,"text":"我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中有60幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題可是我知道在賴總統他的一個氣味變遷的一個委員會裡面也在討論核三廠是不是能夠繼續延續使用的問題你在這邊可不可以針對台灣的核能政策說更清楚的一個交代"},{"start":6615.359,"end":6635.777,"text":"報告委員我想核能的政策我們在這個報告上面也寫得非常清楚我們第一個基於安全的考量那第二個全民共識第三個核廢料可以處理我想這個三個要件這個要素能夠解決我們都目前有在努力嗎目前有在努力嗎"},{"start":6636.557,"end":6648.048,"text":"我們當然是這個我想不管這個我們自己經濟部啊或者是能源署啊或者是我們都要了解全民的這個意思我想這個命題在民間應該都有在討論才對"},{"start":6650.407,"end":6678.738,"text":"OK那我這邊特別提一個點就是因為部長你講的一句話就會引起大家很大的一個關注包括菲律賓這件事情所以我特別提一個狀態就是說如果說我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要台灣使用而是只是為了民主同盟這邊更大的一個目標去做的時候那我自己原本在想的狀態是說如果說在菲律賓台灣去開發綠電我們是不是直接買"},{"start":6680.299,"end":6684.063,"text":"報告委員如果用HE100來講就是沒有那條纜是不是"},{"start":6695.674,"end":6695.714,"text":"好的"},{"start":6719.261,"end":6744.073,"text":"好那我接下來要提一個狀態就是針對離岸風電923之亂那因為923之亂之後我因為離岸風電其實3之1 3之2很清楚大家有國產化的一個需求那現在我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到3之1是確定不會再做任何的調整國產化會堅持對不對3之2的部分呢可不可以做一下說明"},{"start":6745.339,"end":6767.175,"text":"報告委員三次案我們是就既有的這個條件這個通案管理那個案可以協助通案管理是什麼意思因為三次案的部分在今年7月份已經完成競筆了雖然還沒有正式簽約約還沒有簽可是這個競筆都已經完成了我們是要從頭來做過嗎還是之後會給這些"},{"start":6772.697,"end":6797.844,"text":"得標的廠商會有什麼樣子的一個彈性?可不可以具體做個說明?得標的廠商他就是得標了嘛那我們現在是約束他就要求他一定要在時間內完工這樣子如果他能夠提早我們可以協助他我們希望他能夠提早他可以協助他就他提早的部分怎麼提早這個是我們需要的所以我們可以協助他這樣"},{"start":6798.684,"end":6814.466,"text":"師父長所以你這樣提的狀態就是說如期並往是最重要的一個前提對不對如果如期並往他們能夠做到沒問題如果不能做到的時候我們可能就會去改變原本他們競比當中的條件是這個意思嗎沒有我們是協助他"},{"start":6817.228,"end":6827.991,"text":"針對這個部分我要特別提一下因為事實上針對國產化的需求的時候我們其實有一個很大的一個目標我們希望的目標呢其實能夠達到"},{"start":6830.452,"end":6830.632,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6860.592,"end":6866.637,"text":"政府已經承諾的事情一定會基於信賴原則我們會實施但是在未來的案場我們希望增加國內的"},{"start":6885.05,"end":6888.435,"text":"三之二的部分基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行對不對?是"},{"start":6902.812,"end":6926.459,"text":"謝謝以上那我在講說今天漲電價我們希望就是經濟部跟台電一起合作其實讓整個台灣的電真的是夠的雖然你一直表示說我們的電夠綠電也夠可是企業界真的是擔心到爆所以當你去講要去菲律賓就是開發綠電的時候還要用電纜拉回來大家都很認真當作它是一回事覺得台灣電跟綠電都不夠"},{"start":6928.62,"end":6929.702,"text":"在賴瑞隆委員質詢完畢休息5分鐘現在請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":6955.043,"end":6975.162,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6975.674,"end":6976.394,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7002.302,"end":7002.462,"text":"主席"},{"start":7018.444,"end":7041.284,"text":"我們看到一期 這也是陳寧菲一直在追的一期的回饋金簽的地方 21.6億當時候在我們的環評裡面 所寫的是要售電收入的回饋結果 申辦自己把它改變成盈餘你知道這當中20年差了多少 21.6億"},{"start":7044.173,"end":7060.063,"text":"結果現在不跟地方談沒有談啊騙你的啦在談什麼在談成為別的特定人士的小金庫在地居然辦活動沒有辦法爭取到預算的一個補助"},{"start":7064.454,"end":7089.389,"text":"其他完全不在這個區塊的還可以爭取到補助我將這個新聞報得非常清楚我們也是收到了一大堆澄清案回饋金不跟地方談欠地方的不談21.6億不談成為特定人士的小金庫再來二期沿用一期的管線現在都在試營運"},{"start":7091.653,"end":7112.488,"text":"地方炸鍋欸問題是安全在哪裡沒有人沒有人說也沒有人給我們資料也沒有人給我們評估在環評要用二期來沿用一期的管線居然在環評裡面沒有任何的一些監測標準現在是我們質詢之後現在才開始做一些監測"},{"start":7121.121,"end":7149.404,"text":"你是不是把地方人民的生命財產安全當成什麼當成什麼這是誰在護航誰在護航再來 署長久違久違安定 要在安定設廠天然性拒絕現在素股廠商也拒絕那現在要何去何從嘿 好"},{"start":7150.71,"end":7173.946,"text":"現在好奇怪九位是拿到台電他的核准天然氣設置的核准好奇怪現在安定設廠拒絕因為當時候也是我帶頭的因為他沒有辦法給地方安全的證明所以當時候安定安南"},{"start":7175.268,"end":7202.329,"text":"所有的民眾反彈請你們趕快去做說明趕快去做一些溝通你們都置之不理大家都置之不理好拒絕了大家都拒絕了現在聽說在議會有決議要去溯谷園區現在連廠商也拒絕那大家都拒絕了居然還有一個電廠突然之間寶春"},{"start":7205.134,"end":7228.935,"text":"目前好奇怪喔在第一時間我想這個資料署長也清楚他已經違反行政程序沒有讓地方同意結果就跟台糖申請結果台糖是拒絕台糖是拒絕你們能源署也沒有收到任何的資料然後他們現在在做什麼"},{"start":7233.547,"end":7261.652,"text":"目前喔 都沒有提出任何申請 地點也沒確認保村居然在各地辦理各區的說明會在各地喔 善化 關鐵 麻豆 到處辦 到處辦他在辦什麼 然後善化的民眾問他說請問你要設置哪裡 阿伯國庭啦請問你阿伯國庭 那你今天在召開什麼樣的說明會"},{"start":7263.291,"end":7289.351,"text":"你地點都沒確認你還召開什麼說明會我跟台堂問請問他有跟你們申請嗎沒有我跟能源署問沒有那請問他可以在各區辦說明會造成人心惶惶我收了一堆陳情書反對的陳情書那請問他在製造這個假象是什麼是認為"},{"start":7292.966,"end":7305.242,"text":"現在九位不能做了因為我們都反對九位不能做了所以他有機會有人在撐腰可以去拿到這張執照"},{"start":7306.88,"end":7330.339,"text":"是這樣嗎?否則你跟我說保春現在也沒拿到台電的天然氣的相關資料然後又沒有提出申請他到處在辦說明會是在辦什麼搞得大家現在一頭霧水署長我剛剛提出來這整個他電廠可以橫著走嗎?"},{"start":7331.863,"end":7355.616,"text":"跟我們報告所有的電廠設立當然要依照相關的法令那這中間在台南完全沒有阿在台南完全沒有依照相關的SOP在走阿到底是誰到底是誰嘛誰在護航嘛否則為什麼我們台南這麼奇怪電廠都可以不照著我們應有的規定辦理"},{"start":7358.988,"end":7369.499,"text":"都可以做直升機做噴射機然後搞的地方那麼大的反彈搞的地方都要出來抗爭為什麼"},{"start":7372.426,"end":7372.766,"text":"今天該辦的不辦"},{"start":7399.557,"end":7417.864,"text":"今天申辦應該去辦地方說明會去跟地方說他的管線要怎麼跑然後他的安全性在哪裡去適宜的是申辦他不辦他不辦結果保村連八字都沒一撇"},{"start":7419.485,"end":7431.528,"text":"也沒有拿到台電的准許也沒有跟台糖去申請到相關的土地也沒有跟我們能源署申請他到處在辦他在辦什麼他在辦什麼這不是奇怪嗎該辦的不辦然後不該辦的造成地方的恐慌去到麻豆大家要說是要在我們麻豆設電廠"},{"start":7448.834,"end":7463.485,"text":"阿去上化然後去關田大家一頭霧水現在是要來我們這邊設了嗎所以 署長台南到底怎麼了台南到底怎麼了呃"},{"start":7467.85,"end":7486.216,"text":"有關於這個電力開發計畫我還是說都要依照相關的法令來執行委員所關切的包括第一個生霸生霸這部分剛剛委員所關心的回饋金的部分分成一期跟二期剛剛委員談到的那個一期的部分是在我們的電協已經發布之前"},{"start":7486.876,"end":7508.056,"text":"所以這個部分看他有沒有跟地方的相關的協議那委員提到的有關在環評說明書裡面所提到的這些相關論述那個已經寫得很清楚了啦從去年開始到今年你們有什麼樣的進度完全沒有沒有進度一期沒有進度然後二期甚至可以無限上綱變成讓電廠自己可以去"},{"start":7512.36,"end":7532.628,"text":"處理他那40%的部分這我完全不能接受沒有安全性然後又可以變成是小金庫變成是電廠的小金庫來修理地方反對他的人我沒辦法接受我告訴你署長我再次強調喔沒有安全我告訴你生霸不可能讓他運轉"},{"start":7534.329,"end":7552.21,"text":"第二今天回饋金沒有處理地方沒有辦法接受因為欠地方的21.6億就要歸還這很簡單然後保村他基本上完全八字沒一撇他到底在做什麼樣的處理"},{"start":7554.239,"end":7567.471,"text":"這是不是有人在乎啦 我不知道啦喔 署長你申報如果在這樣子橫著走寶村在這樣橫著走因為酒會大概也已經大家地方都反對也沒機會了啦如果電廠要橫著走"},{"start":7573.066,"end":7593.025,"text":"沒有人願意陪著你們這樣子毫無關注地方的聲音我們永遠跟人民站在一起我們永遠跟人民站在一起如果真的我們會跟人民站在第一線抗議要嘛就從我們的身上踩過去"},{"start":7604.189,"end":7604.209,"text":"委員質詢"},{"start":7620.336,"end":7649.173,"text":"好部長 委員好我想今天很多人談到這個海外蓋綠電廠這件事情那我覺得本意上看來應該是我們面對2030的綠能的一些需求包括2050的一個淨零碳排的一些壓力所以當然部長想各種更多元性的一些方案那各種可行性來整體來思考特別也看到了包括挪威跟英國的例子包括新加坡跟澳洲的這樣一個例子部長起源點是不是從這邊來的"},{"start":7651.586,"end":7668.683,"text":"我想發想是從這兩個例子來發想的但是我們是一直是在這個所謂的民主同盟裡面的所謂的互相支援然後談到綠能因為會這個2050年地球的淨零減碳這樣一個大的目標"},{"start":7673.288,"end":7702.07,"text":"所以這個綠能就是在民主同盟國裡面大家互相支援討論這個是過去一直到現在那因為我有看到這兩個案子他說在那一天這個四百名夫他成立這個這個樂泰這樣的一個智庫那討論的時候在我之前那麼這個日本的大使還有這個美國的大使都有提到這個民主同盟之間大家要互相的這個協助"},{"start":7703.471,"end":7703.871,"text":"這根本的問題是來自於不斷的要去"},{"start":7732.141,"end":7756.48,"text":"這個改善跟解決我們的綠能就是說我們其實遇到不管太陽光電風力甚至於這個很多的一些地方政府或者是一些民間的一些我們應該更有努力去克服掉這些困難這個其實才是一個更根本那當然很多多元的方案都必須做但我認為應該花更多力氣去建立一個好的制度好的方案那減少一些不必要一些的阻力不能讓綠能這一塊我認為這個應該是那至於像提到這個當然但是我想講就是說"},{"start":7761.444,"end":7781.449,"text":"其實這個企業家跟部長的角色其實是不太一樣的就企業家當然有很多的想法但部長的時候其實部長有想到你這兩天這樣的發言結果今天竟然報紙把你做了頭版同僚這一點我要這個以後要謹言慎行這個我有時候會忘記我"},{"start":7782.129,"end":7809.525,"text":"已經不是郭董事長了所以這一點我非常抱歉企業領袖有很多的意見但是部長統領這麼多的那你每出來以後他有可能就會形成一個認定可能是國家的政策所以他就會很大去處理那我剛剛也聽到了所以我想部長剛才提到這是一個發想一個想法但是我剛剛也聽到有很多的委員問到那部長說半年內要做出一個有一個"},{"start":7810.606,"end":7812.308,"text":"可行性評估我希望這些整體的那個啦那這個將會是由部裡面去做嗎還是"},{"start":7818.971,"end":7842.345,"text":"我們當然有很多方向包括其他的智庫大家都會去討論我還是要提醒部長這件事情掛射到的很多的部會不見得只有經濟部而已所以我既然部長已經講了半年內要出來那我們就看這個但我只是覺得很多事情其實恐怕是部長可以再思考的更清楚一些那個因為你有很多很堅強的幕僚團隊去協助你我認為這個會更"},{"start":7845.587,"end":7861.086,"text":"更成熟的狀況甚至於如果這些事情要提出來應該是在更成熟的狀況下來提出來比較國人跟整個各界比較能夠理解好的我再接下來問一下其實我相當關心問題大臨普遷村"},{"start":7861.867,"end":7889.034,"text":"我反而覺得這些都是很重要的議題因為大靈浦千村不只涉及到人民的安全還有涉及到我們的一些產業地方產業的一些發展這反倒很重要啦那其實我們原先規劃的時間點其實在2023年2023年就去年就應該要完成土地的問題的解決但是我們到目前為止還沒有就是我們的土地問題還沒有做的解決部長這個期程整個已經延後這是2019年蘇院長核定的期程我們要拖延到什麼時間點"},{"start":7890.995,"end":7900.105,"text":"這個會什麼時候可以來完成土地取得這件事情也就是說跟居民的這個土地的取得報告委員我可不可以請我們園館去來回答"},{"start":7902.835,"end":7926.312,"text":"時間有限,我只請部長回去把這件事情要盯緊因為他整個期程其實已經拖延了應該在去年,那現在包括要進入到二階的環平因為這個土地面積大你看第一次二階環平的時間點是2020年4月29號就開了這個將近四年前就開了但是到現在還沒有來完成"},{"start":7927.353,"end":7941.138,"text":"預估可能要一年到兩年的時間我希望這件事情也請部長跟這個環境部的部長也再溝通好不好這要加快他牽扯到國家的重大的一些建設我希望能夠在一年內完成這樣的環評的討論好嗎"},{"start":7942.358,"end":7961.869,"text":"我來跟這個環境部長來討論一下好那另外還有一個重要的事情是所有的鄉親我們在問那什麼時候開始來進行這些登記的一些程序我們看前面那個時間點本來到2023年就應該要完成這個工作就土地的取得阿包括一些相關的一坪換一坪這些那現在我是希望"},{"start":7963.791,"end":7983.843,"text":"這個經濟部加快它的速度在進行環評的同時的時候能不能同時間也啟動今年10月開始要進行環評的程序二階環評的程序了這已經拖延了那接下來我希望部長能不能回去也同步的跟經濟部的同仁的要求跟市府那邊也持續溝通能夠在今年的10月份"},{"start":7984.663,"end":8007.612,"text":"開始現在10月了今年底之前也同步啟動預登記的作業就是說讓人民先開始做選擇因為你若等到環評結束再進行後面的程序可能又一年兩年的時間過了又要再一年兩年然後會遙遙無期從核定蘇院長核定到現在已經經過5年了人民其實連這次颱風過後到底要不要修繕他們都有很大的壓力那我跟你說能不能兩件事情同步來進行讓"},{"start":8008.912,"end":8028.052,"text":"整個環評程序在走之後同時間預登記也進行讓老百姓知道說我接下來我的選擇方案是什麼我是要土地要房子還是要什麼我能夠更清楚的選擇那政府也可以更清楚的規劃出方案出來那能夠在未來環評完成了之後這些的預登記的規劃也初步完成了縮減那個在這個兩個階段的一個討論的時間"},{"start":8031.445,"end":8039.801,"text":"報告委員我們會加快以高雄市政府來進行寫上部長可不可以承諾我在今年底之前開始進行預登記這樣的作業好嗎"},{"start":8043.151,"end":8067.052,"text":"可以嗎部長現在我想這個登記的作業是委託高雄市政府在進行我希望部長跟高雄市一起來完成這整件事情這件事情是經濟部主要的工作高雄市政府是受你們所委託的主導權在你們身上啦好不好我希望這件事情部長朝這個方向今年年底前來進行預登記讓老百姓可以開始來進行選擇好嗎"},{"start":8068.113,"end":8089.13,"text":"我們會一起努力啦 朝這個方向市政府一起努力來進行部長我希望要全力的朝這個方向那也希望部長多花點時間處理這件事情是 謝謝那另外我想問一下雅灣的那個上次有提到AMD的部分也很謝謝部長的支持到台南到高雄但是高雄也原先要設置一個研發的據點那現在的進度到哪邊部長知道嗎"},{"start":8091.272,"end":8106.103,"text":"AMP的部分我想他有他們公司的這個進度啦這個是我們的這個跟我們的這個大A計畫在進行我想他目前沒有非常具體的時間但是他一定會進去"},{"start":8106.803,"end":8131.504,"text":"他主要跟中山大學有合作嘛那這矽光子計畫我想應該是有在進行AMD一定會進駐高雄嘛這個是確定的那至於騎乘的部分也請部長再大力協助啦好不好讓AMD進駐高雄這件事情能加快他的騎乘包括研發據點研發中心等等希望能夠加快他目前是跟中山大學一起合作矽光子那希望加快他的騎乘好嗎是好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":8138.097,"end":8138.663,"text":"現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8168.293,"end":8168.313,"text":"本會議會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8195.824,"end":8197.045,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8211.039,"end":8211.5,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8235.183,"end":8235.984,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8262.606,"end":8263.366,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8291.758,"end":8309.744,"text":"看最後定案,看最後定案的結果是怎樣因為會有不同的意見有的人覺得門檻要降低一點,有的人覺得門檻要高一點,有的人覺得門檻要高一點,有的人覺得門檻要高一點,"},{"start":8318.645,"end":8321.269,"text":"有不同的利害關係的不同的看法"},{"start":8338.19,"end":8338.971,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8357.089,"end":8360.071,"text":"我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃"},{"start":8383.977,"end":8396.546,"text":"好像都覺得我走太快了 還沒有具體做法就講了我以前在教書跟各位說這個命名這樣 下一個在訪問你習慣這樣 抱歉我還是要跟很多大陸人討論 開始要國防"},{"start":8412.416,"end":8413.877,"text":"光電是很重要的"},{"start":8442.081,"end":8461.457,"text":"光電是很快的,光電大概待一天很耗氧,其他的任何的費用才會負擔所以我們現在走進到2040年,人們都說歐盟,歐盟牌,臺灣政府就可以了解這個意思,歐盟牌,因為這樣我們應該會比較操心,因為現在不太能恰恰"},{"start":8471.172,"end":8471.332,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8493.388,"end":8504.773,"text":"他會delay 主要就是 會不會影響到這個生態一些的意見這個就是 這個很取捨的問題如果支持的話謝謝大家"},{"start":8521.41,"end":8521.531,"text":"臨時會議主席"},{"start":8539.798,"end":8540.399,"text":"臨時主席臨時主席"},{"start":8579.588,"end":8580.188,"text":"張綺楷委員"},{"start":8607.901,"end":8619.828,"text":"請郭部長你剛才說以後要緊嚴慎行是不是要先送你一個緊嚴慎行的匾額以後提醒你不要在天馬行空講太快"},{"start":8633.564,"end":8657.871,"text":"要嗎?要算個便宜?幾年盛行?我可以不講話,但是天馬行空是我的這個習慣不過以後要幾年盛行是的其實現在不是,大家罵你說你到菲律賓去設這個電廠,你就救回來你知道問題出在哪邊嗎?為什麼被罵?或者需要幾年盛行?它至少有幾個問題嘛,對不對?你站在人民的角度人民看到你要去設這個電廠本來應該有好處啊,可是人民為什麼會生氣?"},{"start":8662.498,"end":8664.28,"text":"臺電我剛看臺電到今天的虧損4420億"},{"start":8688.18,"end":8691.741,"text":"報告委員 這個不是叫台電去做的不是台電去做只是說我如何透過民子同盟大家關心的命題"},{"start":8710.054,"end":8726.181,"text":"然後我們建議在那個地方可以蓋個電廠可以分享給菲律賓我們台灣也可以從那個地方來買這個電所以那個部長你今天解釋的跟你昨天媒體整個呈現的落差很大對不對"},{"start":8731.526,"end":8748.142,"text":"人民現在擔心的是,成本到底有沒有升高嗎?他今天收尾焦點說的就是說,第一個要建立一個海底的電纜要多少成本對不對?如果用船去運要多少成本嘛?這是人民的立場,現在想到,因為你這個錢花下去,第一個台電的虧損就繼續增高,這是一個點對不對?"},{"start":8748.963,"end":8762.829,"text":"第二點更重要,跟台電沒有正相關那你詳細的報告給我們那你要對話可能要說明清楚那些所有的媒體呈現的產官學跟人民執意都是這個嘛第二個問題萬芒姐姐"},{"start":8765.211,"end":8786.168,"text":"所以沒有正相關嗎?這是沒有正相關,這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來的命題也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的一個命題那麼民主同盟他們可以做相互相支援大家可以做什麼樣的事情那我就是擷取"},{"start":8786.929,"end":8789.434,"text":"所以這個對台灣到底有什麼好處?你說現在是綠電不夠所以綠電要回來是我們台灣電不夠所以你就要做這件事情"},{"start":8795.555,"end":8795.875,"text":"根據媒體的報告2030"},{"start":8825.279,"end":8843.376,"text":"2030年你覺得有在嗎?我們現在站在...我是...我是還在啦但是不一定在這個位置沒有啦,你一定在啦我是說你站不在經濟部長這個位置啦不可能啦你的年紀跟健康當然人會在啦你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置那個時間點不會再遲了啦沒有啦,我...現在是電不夠還是綠電不夠的問題嘛你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情報告委員"},{"start":8849.742,"end":8863.673,"text":"我們現在這個整個目前的運作我們的能源政策我們到2030年是可以滿足30%的綠電的我們來講30%這個事情我先剛才講的剛剛這個去呂宋島這個建電廠另外一個問題就是國安那當然另外一個問題不是你現在一直講你講得太快所以又要緊嚴慎行就是說你又是一個團隊"},{"start":8877.273,"end":8905.719,"text":"你出來以後你像這台電也要對著後面以後要有個團隊所以內部要先溝通好不好是是謝謝委員有請你多多指導2030現在重點重點人民今天最想聽到的你算是有擔當有肩膀啦你說這個如果拿到撥補兩年內如果電價再漲就是你告別的時候沒錯那你可以跟人民講嗎如果未來可以了撥補的事情我們等一下談啦你們跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價"},{"start":8906.704,"end":8932.799,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說這個如果能夠撥補2000億的話可以解決我台電的現在的財務狀況然後我每一年就不用付那麼多的這個利息這是第一個第二個我現在手上的這個資訊顯示我們台電的材料成本因為大部分的材料成本會漲價是因為我材料成本太高所以你說要補這2000億你就可以保證電價是不會再漲的很明確嘛"},{"start":8936.601,"end":8939.142,"text":"我是有擔當的但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情不是我能夠決定的但是我跟你保證"},{"start":8958.652,"end":8984.271,"text":"我從經營的角度下去我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益到時候你掛罐球去來又漲撥補給你呢到時候你一個郭部長下台然後繼續漲電價人民倒霉啊所以你現在做兩件事情第一個我們會詳細看要不要給你撥補很討人第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價然後我跟你講齁你掛罐球去你無三毛不跑的這個機率是很高我給你看一下我幫你算一下來來來你知道嗎今年2024年啊"},{"start":8988.459,"end":9009.015,"text":"你們比較好的 運氣比較好的燃料成本現在在降低了嘛所以你大概多賺了 省了380億你4月份漲電價 都收入了625億10月份又漲 這很過分喔你本來說撥補完就不漲了喔結果你現在漲了 今年多150億那如果加撥補 所以今年你可能可以賺150億可是這個建築再第一個"},{"start":9012.237,"end":9037.607,"text":"人民納稅錢你又要一千億要進去了我就跟你講喔這一千億還不見得給你所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的這關係讓你烏紗帽我建議你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高你看2005年2025年明年還有一個大的危機要一個大漏洞出來你每年河山廠的二號機要停對不對你以前是企業界的老闆啊"},{"start":9040.066,"end":9059.11,"text":"那個停下來少了204億喔!你那個洞要怎麼去補?這是一個大的問題喔!到了2026年你的嚴重性更高了!第一個,你和一廠跟和二廠,和一廠現在停機,今年停機以後反映出來的一個一號機就是204億對不對?這個就是成本嘛!"},{"start":9062.984,"end":9091.715,"text":"二號機要204億這是核電廠一個大的漏洞2022年進行你開始虧損八百億以上所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革你今天做這個保證從這個漏洞核電廠被你停機的這個另外一個危機我給你看下一個危機再生能源包括你剛才說的你真的要去國外設什麼設什麼電廠買綠電那些你現在一個大問題你現在買電現在都在高峰上面"},{"start":9093.664,"end":9104.03,"text":"現在再生能源的價格 現在電的這個成本 我問你一下現在平均 我剛剛上你台電的官網看 你現在平均的發電跟過電的成本是多少 3.06你知道嗎 風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎 風力發電 你台電的官網看得到嗎"},{"start":9118.118,"end":9125.301,"text":"6.59不定風率平均5.2對外購買的話今天啦我今天上去看的是5.6.59將近"},{"start":9128.715,"end":9154.992,"text":"五點五九將近六六大順喔好你如果是太陽光電多少?總經理多少?呃我們這邊的太陽光電平均是四點八八左右四點八八接近五塊好你的成本是三點零六你看看我剛跟你講一個大家都沒有處理啦核電廠一年的如果加核一核二核三全部都停了到明年就全部都停了對不對"},{"start":9156.235,"end":9162.91,"text":"總共一千億財政活動你現在碰到再生能源我剛算給你聽了你的電價你購電的成本將近都比平常多了兩倍"},{"start":9170.194,"end":9188.129,"text":"這兩個洞你根本都補不起來啊所以現在我做個最具體的建議好不好你給我一個很明確的你到底要怎麼去做改革這兩個洞洞就好了一個再生能源你要更高的這個價格去買你要怎麼去達到你的再生能源的目標的同時你這個洞洞怎麼去補起來第二個"},{"start":9189.346,"end":9189.446,"text":"報告委員："},{"start":9213.261,"end":9242.062,"text":"這個減下來6塊錢5塊錢去減你年來3塊多4塊這個都是部長這個是科學問題是數學問題這差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛我問最後一個問題問最後一個問題本定現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案你們最近開了一個會阿經濟部跟法務部辦了一個會叫做防制綠能的犯罪壽談會你有去嘛對不對有你有去嘛對不對你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體的做法嗎"},{"start":9242.85,"end":9264.528,"text":"我們跟這個法務部都有在討論那法務部、農業部跟這個...你那個具體的做法送一份你明天送來辦公室好不好我看看你具體的問你一個最重要的你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集哪一個你這個會啊你去參加啊防治力能犯罪座談會啊"},{"start":9266.206,"end":9274.525,"text":"你什麼人負責這個會?誰負責召集?院長室?院長室的政務委員召集的你經濟部什麼人負責?"},{"start":9276.752,"end":9300.091,"text":"上面怎麼我看到光文上面來來來上面的召集人會議召集人為什麼是林文信報告這是個個案委員談的是說現在行政院有個治安會報治安會報啊前幾天部長去的啊法務部跟經濟部辦的防治綠能犯罪壽檯啊這上面的召集人是什麼人林文信啊我沒看見林文信什麼人沒有"},{"start":9303.217,"end":9332.049,"text":"報告委員 我不熟你不是林文信 林文信同時你去開花林文信就是臺南88鄉立揚岸你們能源署的組長你不知道他現在還在這個位置 他還在負責召集沒有沒有沒有 這個很諷刺啊他已經掉開了掉開 那為什麼我上面看到資料 他負責召集跟通知"},{"start":9333.479,"end":9360.482,"text":"各位朋友這個是在那一天開會議的時候牧寮在聯繫作業的時候那林文信目前已經調離了這個現職的位置了你今天開的是防治綠能犯罪他是綠能犯罪被起訴的人你這反差太大了吧你這黑色幽默嗎你在辦防治綠能再找一個你經濟部已經被台南地檢署起訴的人就負責召集"},{"start":9363.05,"end":9372.532,"text":"這事情怎麼辦?我們會把它...我們已經把它掉開了我們現在已經把它掉開了所以它不可能...它不可能介入這個議題沒有啦 那是過去啦我們要面對這個問題解決問題是在未來部長 這個會非常重要喔你去 法務部長 連行政院長都去這會是不是重要?"},{"start":9390.916,"end":9416.741,"text":"來啦 我要講 先講事情 來來來 等一下等一下欸老蔣真的不要 這真的太離譜 這民眾會怎麼看你宣誓要防制力能犯罪阿他已經被起訴了所以第一個 他以前是光電組的組長不只要調離開 我覺得以後光電的事情他已經被起訴了嘛不只調職 他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦要靜候整個司法的這個審判好不好 這個要調離開"},{"start":9418.885,"end":9442.575,"text":"好先這樣子那等一下我剛講您在這個會場上你提了什麼樣讓我們光電必要可以減少你給我一個書面好不好那剛講的更重要的喔人民票的是保證兩年內不能漲電價那你怎麼做到你那兩個大漏洞核能的一場二三場的那一千億怎麼補還有光電再生能源你買那麼多你這個漏洞那麼大你怎麼去補好不好這個多久兩個禮拜可以給我嗎"},{"start":9444.272,"end":9444.452,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":9485.092,"end":9510.456,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長還有台電請郭部長 請曾董事長委員好部長 這個新聞今天大家都很關心本席會有另外看法"},{"start":9512.749,"end":9540.515,"text":"這個總是有個方向方向不一定這個要做但是要審慎評估審慎評估因為畢竟台灣台灣這這麼多年來對電的問題一再改變一再改變這個是不是一個一個方向只要審慎評估"},{"start":9542.09,"end":9542.33,"text":"二千六百億"},{"start":9570.707,"end":9578.489,"text":"這邊是寫法定預算2600多億投資金額是2936億然後又追加預算400億當時的錢1999年當時的錢是非常非常大就這樣"},{"start":9598.166,"end":9600.186,"text":"臺電一直要經過政府的人民的納稅錢去撥補"},{"start":9628.816,"end":9651.209,"text":"總共從2023、2024、2025總共加起來已經4千多億4千多億4千多億之後當然還是漲價電價還是漲在這樣的一個情況之下所以我們台灣"},{"start":9653.667,"end":9681.323,"text":"到底是不是能夠依現在的方案在生能源推動今天的報告都提出來了我們就講太陽光電台灣一個這麼小的地方然後要把所有的建築物上面都要有光電"},{"start":9683.22,"end":9710.402,"text":"台灣到底是以後長什麼樣子這個也要評估啊台灣的現況現在的再生農業的推動跟核市場是否要啟動核酸是不是要研議然後一開始我一開始就說你這個部長你所發想的"},{"start":9712.252,"end":9735.424,"text":"從菲律賓利電買過來就如同新加坡新加坡到澳洲更遠更遠所以也是一種方向但是要審慎評估因為台灣這麼小的地方光這個太陽能光電"},{"start":9742.423,"end":9768.866,"text":"農業關那個農業我們台灣是不是以後就不要農業這個都是一個一個是要去思考所以經濟部跟台電怎麼樣去好好的去評估去規劃在推動這麼這麼多年李漾峰店也是一樣"},{"start":9770.285,"end":9793.127,"text":"地熱 台灣就這麼小 地熱這邊提到要挖1至3公里深的淺層地熱能然後甚至3到6公里3到6公里要挖那到底會影響台灣"},{"start":9797.461,"end":9824.042,"text":"相關的這些專業到底有沒有投入有時候是這樣部長有時候一個行政院的政策確定之後很多的部會該是地質的專業的就避開了相關的水土保持山坡地保育"},{"start":9826.566,"end":9853.807,"text":"臺灣這只是一個這麼小的地方我們稱為寶島是不是承受得了現在的再生能源的一個方向這個是所以我才會說我沒有馬上火定你對那個"},{"start":9855.345,"end":9879.87,"text":"要從菲律賓購買力電這樣的一個方向除非你要回頭到你一開始你一上任之後包括這個國發會的主委都提到核四啊現在都退了我認為都要整體評估了部長"},{"start":9881.701,"end":9909.391,"text":"報告委員我想政府對核能政策是開放的那經濟部會來關注國家發展的這個情勢臺電公司也會持續關注未來各項科技的這個發展那包括新核能技術在內不會預設任何立場那麼對核電是不是現在的核電是不是要繼續使用那麼需要滿足三個條件第一個就是確保核能安全"},{"start":9910.792,"end":9913.254,"text":"2.核廢料可以處理3."},{"start":9913.254,"end":9926.367,"text":"社會有共識我相信這三個條件委員應該都會支持的我們不會反對任何的綠電任何的方式但是我追求的就是成本"},{"start":9927.288,"end":9945.732,"text":"追求的是成本讓我們台電所有的發電成本可以降低讓我們把電給全國的這個使用者在用的時候我們考慮他所以剛才有委員指教我說這個電價是不是可以不要再漲那電價可不可以漲不漲這個不是經濟部"},{"start":9948.813,"end":9951.075,"text":"因為這個整個政策政策的問題導致以我一開始講合適"},{"start":9979.011,"end":10005.757,"text":"三千多億三千多億因為核四停擺所以又撥補了四千多億你看多少的錢啊多麼多的錢照樣漲價不得不漲價是這樣的一個情形一再的漲 一直漲 一直漲"},{"start":10008.348,"end":10036.084,"text":"今年又漲已經知道要撥補了還漲這個就是說整個能源政策部長來自企業有時候該正確的評估之後當然這不是你的專業但是你可以召集相關的專業人員不只是"},{"start":10037.594,"end":10037.934,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":10068.049,"end":10073.727,"text":"謝謝主席 尤其經濟部的郭部長 台電曾董事長跟王總經理王總經理"},{"start":10079.775,"end":10104.786,"text":"部長,任何政策的形成,一定要經過事前整密的評估各項可能造成的影響,還有裁員部分那你這個所謂的海外電廠部分是你的構想嗎?你的想法?你的想法是可行的要變成具體的政策具體的政策之後才能去執行嗎?是的那您覺得您的構想,化成具體政策的可能性如何?"},{"start":10106.482,"end":10124.337,"text":"我必須要多方面的評估評估的階段大概要多久大概要半年所以半年發生政策你可能還要修法也不一定那還要招募商也不一定政策要執行還需要多久"},{"start":10125.912,"end":10154.001,"text":"這個部分報告委員我們不各種方法都可以啦目的就是說我們可以互相的sharing這樣的一個經驗互相可以這個買賣這樣的一個綠能大概這個是主要這概念很好但是我覺得是一個long term的一個計畫是的你要解決能源配比這是應該是急迫性的問題我們目前並沒有要解決目前的能源配比"},{"start":10154.451,"end":10173.644,"text":"如果你做一個長程的規劃我覺得是可行的但是你必須要經過詳細的評估相關的配套你都應該很完整的做公告所以我覺得任何的政府的政策要對外公告之前甚至構想的階段都要很整密的做一些評估那我想針對這個計畫台電的立場曾董事長對國務部長的這個構想"},{"start":10180.236,"end":10204.961,"text":"可行性如何?我跟委員報告就是說其實減碳這一個事情現在全世界都在設想各種的方法我知道我知道 我就具體而言聚焦在這個海外式電廠可行性如何?那個部長有提到就是說這個電廠的設置不見得是台電去設置那HVDC的技術確實全世界現在也在關注那我想說HVDC的技術成熟跟它的成本等等的我們可以來做分析"},{"start":10206.741,"end":10207.462,"text":"王總,你看這個技術面行得通嗎?"},{"start":10222.101,"end":10240.728,"text":"因為如果要從菲律賓送電過來一定要走直流的電不會是交流因為距離比較長那台澎海蘭是用交流那直流的話目前在歐洲大陸因為歐洲大陸事實上很多國家都是在海上所以這種海底電纜事實上已經是一個成熟的技術那現在重點是在於說"},{"start":10241.888,"end":10267.417,"text":"用什麼樣的規模然後成本這要做最適合的考量所以這個還需要一點時間來評估我覺得這個方向沒有錯我覺得部長也不需要道歉我覺得長期的方向是沒有錯的但是你要論述更完整更清楚做一個可行性的一個我們說在這個政策形成之前我們會做相關的評估評估之後具體的時程經費什麼都會做出一個很完整的一個對外說明"},{"start":10270.418,"end":10283.89,"text":"我想這題就到這邊地熱的部分我想台灣有這個條件但是我們地熱的潛能跟開發的比例嚴重失衡現在我們地熱發電量佔總體發電量0.01年我們目前定的目標是多少"},{"start":10291.772,"end":10308.964,"text":"我們現在大概運廠的地熱就是如果深層地熱運廠大概有40GW對它可以開採出來實際上可以用的大概接近9GW但是我們當初2025是定200MW20MW2025是定20MW2021202520MW所以"},{"start":10320.788,"end":10347.897,"text":"你目前你現在目前的這個開發進度達成率也目前蠻低的到2023所以怎麼樣能夠2025能夠達到20MW我請這個委員會署長跟你報告一下各位報告到目前已經有7點多個MW已經完成那目前中油還有其他民間業者建置的計畫還在執行當中我們預定到明年底應該可以達到20好你們有這個把握了"},{"start":10348.797,"end":10361.691,"text":"好 這個地熱這個是很重要 這個我覺得應該要加快另外我們評估的5月公告的這個地熱能探勘跟開發許可跟管理辦法這實際上成效如何來 署長是"},{"start":10365.538,"end":10374.65,"text":"主要就是針對過去地熱的開發都擅在各部會的相關法規包括你要探專有溫泉法有水利法等等你要這樣對這個業者相關的風險才有動機才有意願"},{"start":10380.546,"end":10404.803,"text":"所以在行政程序上我們後來透過修法之後把它變成單一窗口由經濟部這邊統一來做單一窗口的審查我的意思說你是不是由政府來主導初期的高風險的探勘有一個專責機構做一些分攤的這個風險分攤的機制在這個地熱的風險那第一個在專探那專探所以我們本部的地方中心"},{"start":10405.623,"end":10417.393,"text":"委員會針對我們幾個熱區會做相關的探專那我們就風險要降低啦要分攤啦他才有動力還有這個動機這個北高雄啊這個電網產生計畫我們曾經在2027啊2019有這個防災型的這個"},{"start":10424.338,"end":10432.7,"text":"這部分不能只在南高雄而已你那個電纜強韌計畫總統也很重視所以這個部分是不是也可以把北高雄的這個沿海地區的電纜地下化列為一個專案來處理"},{"start":10454.264,"end":10468.097,"text":"報告委員這一次我想這次山多爾颱風造成這個屏東高雄沿海的這個嚴重的這個災損那我們有這個經驗以後我們會特別就像委員所指導的這個沿海這個"},{"start":10470.045,"end":10492.455,"text":"電網的部分我們會慎重的我注意到好像沒有針對北高雄這部分有嗎有報告委員是有的OK好謝謝另外這個能源組這邊我們AI算力中心它是未來用電需求增加主要原因那是不是應該比照半導體要跟能源組提出能源使用說明書"},{"start":10493.689,"end":10493.849,"text":"新達電廠的燃氣"},{"start":10520.991,"end":10521.231,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10542.911,"end":10557.865,"text":"這會跳票嗎?不會跳票啦,因為我們現在已經點火了一號機已經點火了所以前幾天已經並聯在初步的這個做測試發電一號機是不是要供應給誰你知道供應給喬科跟南科捏"},{"start":10558.988,"end":10559.088,"text":"請謝易鳳委員質詢"},{"start":10594.855,"end":10618.951,"text":"響鐘響鐘響鐘"},{"start":10620.462,"end":10646.334,"text":"應該我瞭解應該是沒有開針沒有開針是不是還不會開針還不會開針所以明年還不會開針應該是2026年才會開針2026年才會開針是不是好那我想請問一下我們目前地熱現在所佔的開採的目標是不是已經達到了9G剛才的資訊"},{"start":10648.803,"end":10677.635,"text":"沒有?沒有?什麼時候會打到?呃...外務委員剛剛那個9GW那是我們講說可能的開採潛能目前這個都需要做相關的探專去探明到底哪個地方有多少地熱所以我們現在由地礦中心跟中油我們中油在今年會開專第一個深層井那這部分我們會去做更進一步的了解之後才知道到底有哪些可以開採出來那什麼時候可以打成?"},{"start":10679.124,"end":10694.891,"text":"所以這個要等到那個我們探專之後確定有多少潛能的時候才能去訂出比較具體的推動計畫因為那個是一個在地底下的一個我們講說運償量40GW能不能被開採出來發電這需要有一些科學的驗證"},{"start":10696.095,"end":10698.558,"text":"我們目前因為核電廠關掉那未來要怎麼樣子補這個核電的缺口"},{"start":10715.162,"end":10730.892,"text":"核電廠的缺口但是我們盡量在這個綠能上面來補足因為報告委員這個核電廠的核電他是潔淨能源我們現在目前比較遇到的問題實際上面的問題是2030年綠電的問題"},{"start":10734.912,"end":10747.572,"text":"那我現在跟委員報告就是2030年那麼這個所有的國外的廠商要的是綠電所以我第一個可以滿足他的綠電那核電他是潔淨的能源"},{"start":10748.697,"end":10766.024,"text":"他是為了approach這個2050年零碳的計畫所以我們必須要在2030年或者2032年希望把這個減碳的部分往前推所以這兩個命題稍微有點不是重複的"},{"start":10766.684,"end":10783.851,"text":"那我看到你們的那個電力的支援工序報告裡面顯示喔你們未來燃氣的機組要增加3092萬千瓦左右對不對是的那為什麼我剛還問你說碳費什麼時候開徵未來如果碳費開徵的話臺電要繳多少的碳費"},{"start":10792.606,"end":10821.575,"text":"報告委員臺電繳的碳費只是我自己場內用電還有陷入損失這塊需要繳碳費那至於說我發出來的電給這些工廠用的話那個碳費是由那些工廠來支付所以這些東西全部都要轉嫁到我們的製造業要轉嫁到中小企業是不是不是不是轉嫁而是因為他們在生產的過程當中"},{"start":10822.395,"end":10824.017,"text":"那如果未來就是碳費的開徵以後電價會不會大幅度的上漲"},{"start":10844.226,"end":10864.381,"text":"跟委員報告目前台電評估就是說開針之後我們在還沒有那個自主減量之前預估啦預估大概是15億那如果有自主減量那個部分還會大幅在下降要自主減量多少你們在2026年就是開針之前你們可以減量多少"},{"start":10865.46,"end":10892.243,"text":"這個部分其實台電在不管是燃煤的用量方面在過去這段時間都有蠻大幅度的這個進展那我這邊舉個例子來講那在以那個台中的我們就台中就好了那它的那個整個的二氧化碳的這個排放的部分二氧化碳排放的部分台中在103年是大概"},{"start":10893.968,"end":10895.488,"text":"那如果我們減煤或減碳的速度不如預期的時候會不會對電價有大幅度的影響"},{"start":10923.004,"end":10933.63,"text":"不會因為即使是現在最嚴峻的狀況就是一年15億15億所以分攤在每一度電大概是0.01元以下"},{"start":10935.066,"end":10959.02,"text":"我想要請教部長喔那你看到了過去主計單位他所預估我們今年物價上漲的這樣子的一個目標喔他其實沒有評估到電價會兩次的上漲那這一次電價兩次的上漲你們評估是0.03%左右是不是但是好你說"},{"start":10959.56,"end":10978.405,"text":"報告委員我們這一次的0.03%的影響主要是因為我們這次大概96%的用電戶是沒有漲的是動漲的所以我們漲的那個4%是工業用電而且它是成長的企業而且它是出口的企業"},{"start":10979.175,"end":10994.503,"text":"那會不會所以你認為這些企業不會影響到製造業嗎?以及對於基礎產業會影響到我們不管是十一住行你認為不會影響嗎?"},{"start":10994.943,"end":11019.557,"text":"我認為目前這個電價這個電價審議委員他們充分的考量所以做出這樣的一個決定但是對我們來講我們台電公司是不斷的精進不斷的在想辦法降低成本但是影響我們成本最大的因素是材料所以當我現在的觀察我們現在得到的資料來顯示未來的材料目前應該是一個高點"},{"start":11020.658,"end":11039.087,"text":"第二 影響的變數是匯率所以我也認為當然我不是中央銀行但是我們大概根據一般的財訊資料顯示我們的匯率應該是穩定的不會再往下扁這個大概是經濟學家他們的看法"},{"start":11039.997,"end":11053.854,"text":"那我如果說這兩個關鍵變數是固定穩定的話那再讓這個電價審議委員認為他應該就是在價格上面的判斷會更精準"},{"start":11054.38,"end":11069.825,"text":"好 那如果你將節能減 你們現在將節能減碳喔 就是新增為投資抵減的項目那你能不能爭取未來碳費用來補助中小企業購買ASCO的這個服務呢"},{"start":11070.715,"end":11098.205,"text":"報告委員,未來的ESCO我們有兩個做法一個做法就是由經濟部聘請專家然後這些專家去審視完了以後請這個ESCO執行的業者來幫這些中小微企業來落實中小微企業他們我們現在的那個條例有改變了在處理ESCO這個金額他可以"},{"start":11099.002,"end":11099.022,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11132.511,"end":11156.223,"text":"請陳昌明委員質詢首先有請我們郭部長請郭部長郭部長我看您的資料"},{"start":11160.392,"end":11180.164,"text":"在能源配比的現況那在2023年經濟部的報告裡面花電佔的比例你的南美是42.2但是台電的報告是34.1在南區的方面"},{"start":11181.52,"end":11200.016,"text":"李經濟部的報告是39.5臺電的報告是44.1那核能差的都也不大差了0.7%再生能源差了4%阿你我現在想不到的南美跟南汽兩個報告怎麼會不一樣"},{"start":11201.677,"end":11209.58,"text":"報告委員我請曾董事長來跟您做個詳細的報告不要詳細我大概了解一下詳細講我時間都跟您講完就沒辦法"},{"start":11214.346,"end":11225.149,"text":"那個我們民間有很多自用發電設備,能源署的統計是全部,臺電公司只報告臺電,那我們民間的發電比較多還是燃煤,但臺電已經先開始。"},{"start":11238.663,"end":11255.558,"text":"好 老闆開心了 是啊 第一次的問題 我就請教部長 是我們的中鋼公司經濟部管得到嗎它是我們的這個 呃 辦公事業部 監督得到嗎可以 公務管理"},{"start":11261.662,"end":11285.011,"text":"阿你有沒有能力管到中鋼公司阿部長你不要叫國營私業AAMAAM有沒有能力啦我給他提這個問題我看這個問題中鋼公司是非常優秀的公司但是他在我們台灣的離岸風力裡面表現非常失敗增資64億6年把他虧損"},{"start":11288.444,"end":11306.072,"text":"第一次中鋼30億,第二次的增資是包括國家發展委員會、中鋼國、中鋼機械公司、中鋼……而且我看他寫出來的文章,我還很遺憾,好像他委屈很多"},{"start":11307.557,"end":11322.625,"text":"阿北部的那私製鋼鐵是私人的公司現在突然膨脹的很大你中鋼公司是代表國家你離岸婚禮的自治力沒有辦法成功該要學的"},{"start":11323.737,"end":11327.198,"text":"我會要你們的報告也會要說國貨會提出這個報告這是很壞的現象"},{"start":11344.656,"end":11354.596,"text":"尤其中央公司是南部的私立團體聽說那裏面很複雜一般人都不敢去碰不敢去摸啊看你這裏面有沒有氣泡啊"},{"start":11356.482,"end":11382.493,"text":"我會向委員請教如何來督導這個中鋼像我 我不敢 我沒那麼厲害你做企業的人你更厲害但是一些消息員工你才知道這樣好不好好 謝謝 謝謝保證你人家沿途工會又開始會出帶著荷艾的連你那看也不錯我向你請教你這個老委員你一直這樣不支持以公務預算來貼補台電"},{"start":11384.96,"end":11393.467,"text":"但是你跟北匯分你說立法院不支持波普的話將調漲電價來應用虧損你跟他本來是支持說到這個時候應該會合我只能怪你說"},{"start":11400.287,"end":11423.702,"text":"我姓朱白阿你不要那個輝和家園是民進黨姓朱白你亂講你習得來吃雞湯飯你都不想理阿我告訴你這個狀態的恐怖就在這個地方你有沒有生同感受是的完全感同身受我剛剛看到報紙說你要去菲律賓齁我不知道種田開電廠"},{"start":11426.197,"end":11441.245,"text":"說你在發想,發想你一出來做生意企業的精神就常常要有夢想,常常有發想。習門就開始跟你修理,但是我保證你要學語,理想是很豐滿的。"},{"start":11443.459,"end":11466.406,"text":"現實是很骨感我問你菲律賓可靠不可靠你常常說第4會聯盟雖然高性命你不要做得那麼偉大你太多台灣這隊你搞不好我們就叫你英雄啊我是很良心跟你建議的你那個電送過來各方面我想了很多阿菲律賓的狀況你曉得嘛"},{"start":11468.561,"end":11472.125,"text":"你當部長要謹慎一點再來,你要調整今年補月一千億,明年一千億,我現在送給你聽"},{"start":11493.096,"end":11506.928,"text":"連台電公司都很優秀,就是被政策害死。蔡英文當總統時連續動漲7次,沒人這樣去做啦,要討好百姓,今天就有夠了,頂不住了。換你來當代罪羔羊。"},{"start":11517.21,"end":11519.051,"text":"117年你們調漲8.4%電能價調漲8.4%您跟我們報告一年可以收291億113年3月調漲11%您說可以增加628億"},{"start":11538.783,"end":11543.464,"text":"113年9月當然現在調漲的時間比較少調漲12.5在明年可以增加750億我記得你們幫我們報告好像今年這樣調漲在今年會加123次的調漲增加台電的電價收費1660%再來"},{"start":11566.294,"end":11574.802,"text":"您在這裡增資2500億,以後給予您500億,總共這裡大約3千億。現在3千億給您增加就調漲1668億,總共有4,680億,你們負債才4,600億而已,表示你們還有盈餘。"},{"start":11592.651,"end":11599.895,"text":"臺電真的很辛苦你們逼得我這樣把你生來生去雖然我很同情但是對臺電我仍然要了解這樣怎麼會這樣你們這樣我給你算了一共如果包括條長的價格包括政府的補貼運動中"},{"start":11622.059,"end":11636.25,"text":"包括這兩千億,還沒過這兩千億六千、六百、六十百億,六六花,台電雜花啊你再試穿一下,你要先穩住呢扣掉四千六,還有兩千億啊"},{"start":11638.51,"end":11659.101,"text":"報告委員 這個部分是這樣子啦這個是材料企業啦材料企業身份提高啦然後我們大概主要撥補還是因為我們對民生的電價我們是完全動長的所以民生的身份三個月我們都不會說話你如果說一個小部分的再繼續你能夠說到哪裡但是你要說的幾點喔"},{"start":11664.434,"end":11674.035,"text":"每一次你們都講成本上漲、原材料上漲但是你們報告裡面說現在原材料已經回歸到一般正常的狀況"},{"start":11675.188,"end":11688.652,"text":"是這幾天阿拉伯在打仗才升高的啦沒有回來啦平均的材料成本我們不是某一個點的材料成本而是全年平均的材料成本"},{"start":11708.302,"end":11709.463,"text":"主席有請郭智慧部長請郭部長"},{"start":11741.465,"end":11761.692,"text":"委員好 郭部長好 郭部長你最近的言論受到外界許多的矚目對菲律賓的重力電輸入台灣的方式我個人其實是深表贊同如果能夠再搭配這一個部分的半導體低階的半導體的輸出甚至科學園區的輸出減少台灣內部的用電負擔"},{"start":11766.465,"end":11793.113,"text":"我覺得從這個戰略佈局來看的話應該是有一個通盤的經濟安全保障的概念吧,部長是,報告委員,我想我這個在談這個議題的時候,這個說話不夠精準這一點造成大家的這個誤會,非常的抱歉部長,你不用跟我抱歉我認為這個構想其實是值得討論的是值得討論的,我是肯定的不用抱歉,真的"},{"start":11793.868,"end":11820.663,"text":"我覺得站在一個部長裡頭有一個宏觀的思考是正確的而且呢你如果有搭配一些的作為的話那是更好譬如講有一部分的情況底下在我們沒有辦法負載的這個產業當中可以建立一個科技外交然後同時部分的低階的產業的輸出可以達到全球的分工沒有影響到本地的這個產業競爭那何樂不為本來就是共享經濟不是嗎是謝謝委員"},{"start":11822.994,"end":11848.434,"text":"對 然後部長我覺得你這個部分可以再深再進一步去思考一下更完整的時候我們再推出來好不好那相對於國內來說前兩 上個禮拜我本席在跟你質詢的問題當中我坐在的你在新建這個天然氣發電廠的部分用自給率的部分本席無法贊同如果是用自給率的部分最低的話就是台北市那應該從台北市開始建才對啊不是嗎"},{"start":11849.415,"end":11877.876,"text":"而且本席調出來我不曉得你們經濟部哪一位是自己大做主張明明在電業登記規則當中你要登記電業要簽PPA的部分要有五項規定喔電業登記規則裡頭第三條裡頭寫得很清楚結果呢你們像大豬大魚啊就給他放寬成三項就可以了簽了PPA之後呢好像這個業者呢就一直往前衝"},{"start":11878.991,"end":11905.307,"text":"也就造成現在這個爭議一個很重要的源頭我慎重的再度的提醒這個部長不要重蹈天然氣只有KPI的這個覆測會引起更多的民怨你以後到時候天然氣你更難推動部長你有沒有像剛剛有些委員質詢的感同身受我是不是可以請這個能源署長不要我不要請他回答這都是KPI小組的啦"},{"start":11907.268,"end":11922.075,"text":"我是說你可能還搞不清楚狀況阿我就提醒你阿 下面的人在害你阿他在害我們阿 怎麼可以亂設這要達到標準以後他們升官了 結果倒楣的是你跟我"},{"start":11931.064,"end":11952.198,"text":"老實講大部分的天然氣都是工業用電75%一般的民眾他其實用電只有佔25%以台南來說就你要叫一般的生活在那邊來承擔這不公平嘛那以前的自給率比較高的部分呢那是什麼時代相對是威權的時代啊現在要蓋一個電廠有那麼容易嗎"},{"start":11953.382,"end":11978.938,"text":"是不是?部長所以說呢再來說的話以台南的市集率最近又增加了深壩二期也開始啟動了而且增加了1.1GW這種情況底下他的整個能源承擔沒有增加嗎?更何況原來的水庫高雄都沒有水庫全部的水庫都在台南水的支援也是一種負擔啊太陽能七股也是啊也是一種負擔啊不是嗎?"},{"start":11980.253,"end":11998.668,"text":"都負擔那麼多了更何況再講白一點以興達發電廠距離台南市政府14公里距離高雄市政府40公里含怪了整個康貴範圍30公里台南沒有分攤到這一個能源的負擔嗎也有啊誰在誤導你你知道嗎誰在誤導你是左邊右邊是誰前面還是後面"},{"start":12008.376,"end":12037.426,"text":"部長是你不要被害死還不曉得啊是這業務的狀況你要徹底的去掌握啊所以部長依照這些整個規則你應該恢復到原來的電業登記的這些登記規則的第三條沒有五個不能有簽PPA你要給那個能源署說你要跟台電說是誰製作主張的是誰大廚大爺你去查清楚造成民間的困擾"},{"start":12039.704,"end":12065.001,"text":"已經叫他退了還在重來好像非見不可有那麼大的企圖嗎背後有什麼原因你去調查清楚是不是有不可告人的秘密哪有這種事情而且還不只一個後面還有一個寶村都沒有地方跑了是不是你調來台南不可是不是是誰指示的"},{"start":12066.26,"end":12094.085,"text":"部長 你去查清楚而且你也不要害那些業者跟著你傻傻的一直衝要有退場機制現在業者之所以不願意退場還會死灰復燃的原因就是有一筆違約金在那邊啦那一筆違約金是誰讓他掉入那個陷阱的就是五變成三個規則嘛 到底是誰嘛有沒有退場機制嘛所以說這個東西你要了解清楚啦"},{"start":12095.274,"end":12095.794,"text":"請賴思寶委員質詢"},{"start":12124.612,"end":12129.454,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請經濟部的郭部長請郭部長委員好部長你好這個Google在美國他要跟和平的新創公司Keros Power前幾天宣布"},{"start":12151.633,"end":12179.049,"text":"他已經承諾要購買這家公司建造的7座的SMR這事你知道嗎?您是說Google要用SMR?對,他要跟這家公司買7座的SMR是,報告委員,我們都有在關注新的這個能源技術"},{"start":12180.478,"end":12192.075,"text":"是 那我現在問你啊你今天今天這個有頭版條好幾個媒體頭版條叫你說要在國外設綠電廠這個其實就凸顯一個事情嘛"},{"start":12196.272,"end":12219.39,"text":"大家馬上直覺就想到經濟部長已經看到了經濟部長不是董事長而已看到了缺電嘛那因為來講我就問你如果台灣Data Center一些資料中心有需要的話你要不要提供協助幫他們來想辦法也可以引進SMO謝謝委員我想政府對核能政策是開放的"},{"start":12225.762,"end":12237.015,"text":"那麼經濟部除了關注國家的發展情勢台電公司也持續在關注未來各項科技的發展請你回答我你要不要提供協助我們會在這個三個條件之下"},{"start":12240.208,"end":12240.949,"text":"講這個東西都給說的"},{"start":12270.492,"end":12288.269,"text":"部長 原來你當經濟部長外界是高度期待的覺得說一個企業界董事長很瞭解企業的經營來當經濟部長很好 有guts甚至於大家會有過有一點多的期待台灣電不夠啊"},{"start":12289.366,"end":12300.78,"text":"你現在講去菲律賓去日本去哪裡那個電都貴啊核電最便宜啊大家對你有一個現在發現是不切實際的幻想以為國部長來了會解套這個重啟"},{"start":12304.71,"end":12322.21,"text":"河河山研議結果突然發現不是啊 國資會部長就想當官等於出賣自己的靈魂感冠這些都不要了 就是要想當官你可以看啊 前幾天我在總時勤的時候你都不來啊 這個這熊本"},{"start":12323.462,"end":12335.856,"text":"我們都很清楚那些媒體都把你講出來講得你來看一下人家講的我都聽你難看了今天如果我是你的話被人家這樣修理到說你是回訪嘛對不對去熊本是不是回訪"},{"start":12337.842,"end":12353.847,"text":"報告這個委員我去熊本是幫助我們台灣到日本投資的廠商我替他們爭取更大的這個啊投資的這個福利那個你需要一定跨禮拜二跟禮拜五嗎這兩天都不來禮拜二到禮拜五這個東西秒數國會啊"},{"start":12355.527,"end":12384.515,"text":"因為我在熊本談完了以後我要到東京去談在日本其他的這個投資的要件兩個月以前兩個月以前難道你不知道立法院要總諮詢嗎我們那個總諮詢那個時候我們沒有確定總諮詢在那個禮拜所以我有請假我是有請假的我請假也經過我的院長同意也經過立法院院長同意的所以就院長替你被罵啊"},{"start":12385.526,"end":12408.13,"text":"那非常抱歉這個事情我們也不知道說那這個大宴會那麼時候在開會但是我確實是為了我們國家我們所有台灣的廠商在日本投資我再爭取讓他在日本的投資可以得到更好的這個福利暑假之後什麼時候開議難道你不知道嗎都是9月20號左右對但是報告委員日本來講的話我是與時俱進"},{"start":12412.051,"end":12438.008,"text":"我要強調一個部長阿來因為我時間快到了你不要一直吵喔部長我告訴你不要只想當官你要當官可以這麼愛當官你就好好地接受監督報告委員我不會想當官阿不會想當官你怎麼會我當官有什麼對我有什麼好處是啊有什麼好處人家來叫我妹妹啊但是我今天來就是因為有一個使命我必須要利用我的專業讓我的經濟環境做得更好"},{"start":12440.41,"end":12440.83,"text":"臺灣有幾條的海底電纜"},{"start":12466.01,"end":12470.236,"text":"臺灣的海底電纜跟我這個命題沒有關係報告委員我這個海底電纜不是臺灣要來做的臺灣現在也不管誰做了臺灣有4條"},{"start":12481.714,"end":12501.945,"text":"這個功能是不一樣的啊來來來你給我扯離開話題了齁我告訴你10條最近5年36次的故障任何原因都可能海船的問題動物的問題都可能撞啊我在做的那個討論跟你現在在指教的這個部分是不一樣的命題報告委員你現在給我扯贏了齁我先告訴你"},{"start":12504.281,"end":12530.848,"text":"我現在告訴你你如果要在外界高度質疑喔是不是已經有這個人員的廠商跑去菲律賓設廠了所以你啊搭他的船搭他的路這樣走自己說很難聽的部長啊這個大概是這個我講話不夠精準啦齁那但是事實上都不是各位所想像的那個情境"},{"start":12532.06,"end":12558.394,"text":"那你告訴我們因為我時間到了我不要耽誤其他委員時間你告訴我當初的想法是什麼有突然冒出來這個東西想法就是我想我們現在在最近的看到這個新加坡從澳洲買綠電透過海嵐買了綠電4300公里英國買綠電透過非洲的國家買綠電4000公里所以那麼遠都可以買到了那你為什麼不從澎湖蓋個綠電廠從澎湖過來"},{"start":12560.458,"end":12562.879,"text":"你沒有道歉你沒有道歉"},{"start":12588.41,"end":12613.91,"text":"阿我剛才有在跟很多的委員都道歉阿都道歉了嘛所以媒體沒有錯我在這邊也跟委員您道歉照著您的誤會沒有我不希望你道歉我希望你把事情做好是謝謝現在感覺就是你事情沒有做好是一說就是我沒有謹言慎行這一點我非常抱歉一說就錯阿錯了就甩鍋就是這樣不可能唉真悲哀啦謝謝委員"},{"start":12621.97,"end":12622.291,"text":"請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":12643.001,"end":12663.923,"text":"委員好部長好我終於見到你了因為呢本席在總質詢的時候您剛好又請假那一天其實本席準備了很多跟經濟部有關係的議題但是沒有辦法來質詢我覺得真的非常遺憾那當然你已經一再的說明過了為什麼要就是請假那也是經過準價這個本席都沒有意見但是我必須要講就是說今天開議"},{"start":12664.864,"end":12693.446,"text":"像我們身為委員我們也不會知道究竟是哪一天開議但我們會去推算在那個前後其實我們不太敢去排其他的事情因為總諮詢開議這個是最重要的事情這第一個那第二個呢我想部長其實你上任大概4個多月你就這個出訪有4次了那美國一次日本也去了3次那這一次去呢您去這個3次不管是參加什麼台日科學對談啦也發表演說啦或者是這個參訪日本生技半導體廠商等等"},{"start":12694.667,"end":12719.309,"text":"呃..."},{"start":12719.469,"end":12736.056,"text":"如果大家同意我是會做下去這不是大家同不同意還是要看你的表現嘛對不對但是我是非常期許跟祝福因此要提醒部長之後您可能還會經歷很多個總諮詢麻煩以後在總諮詢之後請不要請假好嗎因為經濟部是非常重要的一個部會喔可以"},{"start":12736.756,"end":12752.927,"text":"那再來您剛也說到這次去日本最主要是要去協助我們台灣的廠商在日本投資不管是創造更好的條件啦解決一些投資障礙啦或者是他的一些交通規劃人才培育等等都是您這次回來做的一個解釋跟說明嘛那不過換句話說"},{"start":12754.988,"end":12779.719,"text":"換句話說其實你是不是就等於是協助日本對台進行半導體廠商招商可以這麼講嘛日本對我們來招商我們的廠商去了那你過去做了一些協助那我想請教就是這次您去在吸引日本廠商來台灣投資的部分有沒有成績這第一個第二個您剛剛所說的要協助我們台灣的廠商在那個地方有什麼具體成效那第三個"},{"start":12780.259,"end":12797.41,"text":"我們所謂的台商現在在那個地方那麼這一次我們是有增加訂單還是有什麼樣的一個成果我想30秒報告委員我去這一趟並不是只有半導體的這件事情我們有談其他的產業那我跟您報告一個產業我這次去主要談的是無人機的產業"},{"start":12805.831,"end":12813.193,"text":"那麼這無人機的產業大概在2028年一年在日本有2000億台幣的這個市場那我談下來的結果就是這個2000億的市場將跟我們台灣的這個業者互相合作"},{"start":12821.536,"end":12836.29,"text":"然後他們因為我們台灣在這個製造上面我們這個mass production比較厲害我們大量生產部長我想所以日本他們會給我們這個你現在在說明就是說我們還要去談了一個這個無人機的雙方的合作嘛那我覺得這都是好事情啦"},{"start":12836.971,"end":12850.824,"text":"那但是重點就是說那除了日本其實可以幫我們的半導體產業這個護國神山也好啦或者是其他的相關人才啦這個資源啦我們都到日本去投資重點是就像您剛剛說互相嘛對我們台灣到底有什麼幫助"},{"start":12852.185,"end":12875.897,"text":"我想這個是最重要的重點那同時我也要提醒這一次部長懷悠提到說我們在那裡也希望能夠培育人才不過我是覺得我們的培育的人才真的要為台灣所用部長來自於業界非常知道我們自己半導體也好或者是我們這些AI這樣這個理工科技人才也是人才荒所以我們怎麼樣讓我們台灣自己有這個人才甚至於留在這這是重要重點好嗎"},{"start":12876.938,"end":12892.856,"text":"我們在經濟部有一個2加4的計畫也就是說讓國外的人才來台灣學習兩年然後留在台灣的產業工作四年四年以後換另外一個身份繼續為台灣的企業打拚部長我想就是留住人才這個重點"},{"start":12894.278,"end":12894.978,"text":"臺電成立外部停跳電事故調查委員會"},{"start":12910.083,"end":12928.888,"text":"因為之前我們大規模小規模跳電停電無數次了每一次你們端出來理由尤其是在本席的選區以及我們今天主席的選區桃園那個理由真的是笑掉人的大牙甚至有很多人是完全不相信所以我想到底實際是怎麼樣我不予置評我不會去講說你說的意思是謊話但是"},{"start":12930.188,"end":12952.094,"text":"你就成立一個外部停跳電事故調查委員會嘛這是一個公正第三方而且之前次長也說要成立但是本席看到你們現在僅僅就是在桃園跟我們的這個台電跟桃園市政府成立了一個桃園電力穩定專案小組我跟你講第一個這非常的弱第二個也不是當時本席所說要成立的那這個部分的話應該後面怎麼做"},{"start":12953.141,"end":12977.45,"text":"報告委員 我想這個我們實際上是有在做了 台電是有持續在做只是沒有來跟委員做一個比較詳細的報告現在停調電不是只有桃園喔所以本席要求你成立這個外部停調電事故調查委員會這麼公正的第三方那有公正的第三方出來 那將來講出來的理由我們也能相信嘛所以這個調查委員會什麼時候會成立呢"},{"start":12977.93,"end":12992.859,"text":"我們現在其實是有跟地方政府在合作啦我們基本上希望把那個可能跳電的紅區都圈出來我們現在台電已經都圈好了那麼我們勢必要在這個半年內把它全部的消除"},{"start":12993.399,"end":12995.341,"text":"但是有一些我們需要委員來回答我們"},{"start":13011.897,"end":13016.141,"text":"最後再一分鐘我們桃園我們要這個成立大型數據中心一律不合公點因為我們在北區但你給我們桃園什麼我想相關的這些空污啊污染啊尤其是SRF我特別今天在這裡提我想我們的召委我們主席也很關心這件事情"},{"start":13034.48,"end":13057.671,"text":"一開始桃園市政府為什麼會同意因為你經濟部給了推薦函那我們後來要撤銷的時候你經濟部曾經說過你會尊重桃園市政府但是顯然你沒有尊重桃園市政府啊所以我們現在要二次撤銷今天本席在這邊來請教部長對於桃園市政府SRF的二度撤銷入園那你怎麼看你支持桃園市政府的二度撤銷嗎我請教部長"},{"start":13060.841,"end":13087.197,"text":"這個 我想地方政府跟業者的這個合法行為啦 我想經濟部都支持那 任何開發的行為都希望業者沒有 部長 請你抬頭看著我 不要看稿子好嗎請你抬頭看著我 不要看稿子是對 在我們桃園市政府二度撤銷3家SRF廠商入園許可這件事情你要怎麼處理 你的態度是什麼我的部長 對不起 後面那位請你離開"},{"start":13088.851,"end":13117.81,"text":"我想大家如果住在合法的情境我想就是按照這個規定的程序來進行什麼是規定的程序就是法定的程序什麼是法定的程序在這件事情上就是讓業者向這個台灣市政府申請所以台灣市政府就不同意啊台灣市政府現在是不同意的我想部長我要提醒你一件事情這件事情現在國外的投資者充分的關心這個命題"},{"start":13119.211,"end":13127.913,"text":"國外的投資者充分的關心我們就必須要屈從嗎?部長您講的我也同意但是這件事情不要給我討論市政府扣帽子當初如果不是經濟部推薦那我們不會同意但是呢你今天又還沒有gas在選舉前把這個推薦還收回去了我必須要提醒經濟部喔"},{"start":13141.357,"end":13168.793,"text":"今天SRF的廠商我不知道是要迫於就是給這個桃園市政府壓力還是有別的想法那現在也提出要國賠這個國賠未必是針對桃園市政府我想經濟部有相當的責任我們希望在會後找一個時間部長能夠跟本席我們好好討論一下關於桃園的SRF這個部分我們六位立委都非常關心那我們希望找一個時間部長能夠跟我們好好的來談一談我們後續怎麼尊重桃園市政府怎麼善後這個議題可以嗎"},{"start":13171.147,"end":13171.627,"text":"接下來請蔡議員執行"},{"start":13208.48,"end":13211.801,"text":"我們是不是有請這個部長以及我們台電公司部長因為今天大家都在討論這個菲律賓這個呂宋的這個經濟這個經濟計畫"},{"start":13231.581,"end":13260.379,"text":"那就你早上的說法說因為這是一個論壇嘛那是在針對全世界這些民主國家大家針對呂宋的一個經濟人道這樣的一個計畫那我想保證我用我的質詢給你比較多時間說那這樣的一個經濟人道他主要是針對哪些公共建設也好或者是哪些的經濟發展你也可以完整的說明一下嗎"},{"start":13260.819,"end":13280.499,"text":"好 我跟委員報告這個是今年的4月這個美國總統跟這個日本的首相還有菲律賓的總統在美國他們討論出來要發展這個菲律賓北呂宋的這個部分那這個案子就是他叫做呂宋經濟狼帶這樣的一個議題"},{"start":13283.526,"end":13298.163,"text":"這我有兩個命題把它併在一起這個就是一個議題然後這個裡面有決定讓日本去做這個機場做軍港然後從馬尼拉要拉一條火車拉一條鐵軌拉到北呂宋"},{"start":13301.633,"end":13315.043,"text":"那麼在這個情況之下我們當然這個是日本美國跟菲律賓之間的協定因為我們是這個民主同盟所以有另外一組在民主同盟在討論討論在論壇說過去我們的綠色能源因為2050年這個"},{"start":13322.789,"end":13340.008,"text":"減碳這個要零碳的這樣的一個目標那希望說這個同盟的大家可以互相支援互相來support所以你這樣說就是說大家去討論到了另外一個命題就是減碳的議題所以才有討論到債費率因為齁"},{"start":13341.974,"end":13357.782,"text":"部長雖然說前幾個質詢大家都站在批判的角度但是我覺得這個是一個很大的如果我們先不要說經濟部的角度以現在如果有這樣的一個計畫這個以台灣的很多業者那是一個很大的事"},{"start":13359.683,"end":13377.67,"text":"很大的商機大家可以去那邊去投入不管是說好你說有些公共建設也好或者是投入綠電綠電也不只太陽能啊風電也是啊那台灣這幾年我們在做風電後我們在推動國產化事實上也有相對的一些成長跟經驗嘛這個全國這次尤其這個三奪爾還"},{"start":13383.432,"end":13384.354,"text":"還在台灣這個盤繞這麼久的時間我看我們的風電我看起來應該是都還好吧"},{"start":13393.803,"end":13407.447,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的風電不管是陸域風電或者是這個海域的都還不錯都沒有看到有一些那個風損的部分沒有風損嘛 颱風天應該還創紀錄發電量還有創紀錄我跟委員報告這個剛才在講的這個呂宋的這個計畫裡面我們可以看得出來我們從一些學者的研究"},{"start":13419.47,"end":13429.101,"text":"如果在呂壯那邊來蓋風電或者是蓋太陽能光電因為他地方夠大所以他的成本會往下降"},{"start":13429.793,"end":13443.662,"text":"那麼往下降我當然就是我們在學者討論啊在論壇上面討論我們都希望說我認為你委員齁你就是有一個比較超前啦就是說你要怎麼把那些電油回來台灣是最終那些沒有電油回來台灣有企業要在那買就買就好了我買電不可以還是說企業對啊人家企業人家的企業要買電讓他們自己去發電對不對至少"},{"start":13451.147,"end":13453.749,"text":"我看到的是說你參加這樣一個論壇那這個論壇是現在民主同盟現在在呂宋的這個經濟狼帶的計畫台灣當然有機會我們參與嘛我們介紹我們台灣優良的廠商到這個呂宋那邊去投入他們的計畫"},{"start":13468.281,"end":13491.346,"text":"這個有什麼不對阿是謝謝謝謝委員對阿對阿我們就是台灣的企業全出於世界阿這個部長我覺得你這個做事你去參加這個論壇然後你有你的想法你故意就是說要電郵回來主要讓人家跟你連結說喔這個是因為台灣我們的綠電不足我們要補足我們的排碳係數阿所以才會有你去廢墟濱設電廠我感覺是這個事情你讓人誤會然後讓人連結起來"},{"start":13498.027,"end":13519.563,"text":"所以我覺得這件事部長你就對外解釋清楚可是你去參加了這樣的一個論壇那你看到了現在全世界要來投資整個呂宋的經濟狼帶包括能源選項也是一個很大的一個商機所以你覺得台灣這一步我們應該要出我們的手上去讓他走出去那你怎麼說不對"},{"start":13525.521,"end":13541.947,"text":"謝謝委員希望增加台灣廠商的競爭力從國內不是只有考慮國內的市場應該要考慮國際的市場在上一次我們的經濟委員會的時候那台積電的這個劉德英董事長也在分享台積電成功的模式台積電一開始"},{"start":13543.584,"end":13561.97,"text":"就看的是全球的市場而不是只看台灣的市場所以今天可以讓台積電可以避離全世界可以在世界成為我們台灣的護國神山主要他的定位就是台積電是服務全球的這個市場所以我也希望我們台灣的企業不是只有這個國內的這個市場"},{"start":13563.871,"end":13587.959,"text":"而幫助他們加強國際競爭力對你身為我們的部長經濟部長所以你除了要保護台灣我們的技術不要外流之外你就是應該要把台灣的產業然後跟世界可以有更多的對接是的我希望我們賴總統我們卓院長然後信任你然後讓你當任經濟部長也是希望借用你這樣的強才"},{"start":13589.232,"end":13593.036,"text":"是謝謝所以我會覺得這件事你有說明事實上我覺得這個呂宋論壇的這個經濟的計劃經濟計劃真的好你也要介紹給鄉下讓他們去走"},{"start":13606.05,"end":13631.624,"text":"我會繼續把這個論壇的範圍放大跟國內的學者專家我們繼續討論也許我們未必只能做第一名如果他們也要坐機場他們機場有什麼或者他們要拉他們的軌道到馬尼拉這個如果台灣有可以配合的廠商也要讓他們有機會去加入沒有錯這麼大的一個就是離台灣相對比較近的地方對"},{"start":13633.305,"end":13659.134,"text":"這個我覺得都是要去突破的讓台灣走到國際然後第二個我想跟部長再討論一下就是說我們現在在台電公司因為他們有所謂排碳係數的一個壓力這個排碳係數的壓力就變成台電他事實上是沒有辦法去賣這個純綠電所以變得說台電的排碳係數始終是很高那這個也是台電"},{"start":13660.234,"end":13679.914,"text":"承擔了這麼多壓力然後包括台電現在阿愛阿愛需要一些特別預算的一些協助阿所以我現在意思是說你要怎麼部長你在任內你有什麼方向可以讓整個台電他的排蛋係數是下降的"},{"start":13680.535,"end":13697.396,"text":"阿或者是這樣的一個排碳係數可以藉由台電來賣綠電的方式然後來分散他的壓力這部分我們經濟部有什麼做法嗎我想台電他是這個樣子根據這個市場的需求大概企業比較希望這個低碳的企業"},{"start":13698.217,"end":13714.816,"text":"那我們大概在企業要低碳啊企業是低碳可是企業卻沒有自己去努力做好低碳的事情我們現在在幫助企業深度節能來降低他的這個排碳係數那一方面我們在發電的部分橋接用這個部長現在的問題就是說"},{"start":13717.559,"end":13741.413,"text":"我們協助企業降低它的排碳係數但是它的排碳係數最後都跑回來台電由台電來吸收企業的排碳係數所以台電就會有這樣這一層的負擔那這部分有可能我們用低碳的這個電力給它低碳就是我們用這個天然氣的發電來取代這個煤炭的"},{"start":13742.785,"end":13762.339,"text":"天然氣取代煤炭是一個方式啦那當然綠電也是一個方式可是重點就是回到了台電就變成混在一起就變成灰電了嘛就不是所謂的綠電了所以你們台電在這部分你們沒有把你們的綠電跟你們台電自己其他火力發電"},{"start":13763.521,"end":13773.115,"text":"把它做一個很清楚的一個區隔你們都是混在一起賣的所以對企業而言對企業而言它的排碳你的排碳係數還是在你台電這一段啊"},{"start":13774.281,"end":13794.889,"text":"跟委員報告其實部長跟我們只是如何把那個綠電用在最對的地方所以我們在規劃那個電力的產品在銷售的方面在考慮就是看會分倉的電力分倉的概念做一些低碳電力賣給企業但是價格會高一點講到我們台電的工作我們現在嘉義這邊包括我們馬籌澳的"},{"start":13799.636,"end":13800.398,"text":"這個變電所馬酬厚以及我們康榮壽變電所的工程"},{"start":13809.462,"end":13832.439,"text":"請這個進度一定要盯緊我們現在在加速應該是如期完成包括因為我知道說現在我們在沿海的電纜線的一個推動事實上也是有遇到一些阻力不過我覺得台電應該要拿出更大的誠意跟鄉親溝通然後我們可以當然我站在外面我也是要協助你們去溝通不過我想"},{"start":13832.819,"end":13833.079,"text":"現在休息到1點繼續開會"},{"start":13873.541,"end":13873.841,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13922.82,"end":13923.1,"text":"本集完結"},{"start":16094.412,"end":16095.733,"text":"主席謝謝我們請經濟部國部長請國部長"},{"start":16122.996,"end":16123.276,"text":"國電力是國力,這你認同嗎?"},{"start":16145.476,"end":16166.386,"text":"認同認同好那如果說我們未來要針對相關的這些電是不是在我們台灣本地生產不是在台灣本地來發電而是要由外部來做這樣的一個運輸的話你覺得先決條件是不是就會變成是這個命脈發電命脈掌握在別人的一個土地身上"},{"start":16167.472,"end":16194.256,"text":"到時候的國際情勢任何的相關的國際環境會不會更加的一個變化這不是商業模式說我簽一紙公文簽一紙合約就可以確保供電無語提過這樣子的一個構想想法有沒有找我們國安單位這邊來討論看看或是說請教國安單位意見還沒有還沒有所以這完全就是就像你講的快人快語"},{"start":16195.808,"end":16196.289,"text":"不可能為什麼"},{"start":16218.462,"end":16243.662,"text":"因為這完全是你天馬行空的想法沒有跟任何人討論過我跟委員報告這個是這樣子在全球現在這個綠電都是大家關心的命題那麼我們可以看到這個新加坡他從澳洲要買這個綠電太陽能綠電那從澳洲到新加坡大概4300公里"},{"start":16245.423,"end":16270.776,"text":"現在還是持續在討論但是這是一個事實第二個英國英國從非洲透過4000公里他也是要再買綠電也就是說有綠電生產的國家有這個條件但他綠電的發電成本就非常的低所以透過這個海覽的方式其實這個是我們看到一個新的事實"},{"start":16272.079,"end":16297.51,"text":"那我在講這個事情的時候其實是因為這個民主同盟也非常關心這樣子的一個命題因為將來2050年要淨零減碳所以大家為了快一點讓綠能都上來的時候因為綠能其實這個只要經濟規模我想委員非常清楚只要經濟規模到達了它的成本其實是低的那我在想我說我如何讓台灣"},{"start":16299.771,"end":16326.097,"text":"這些廠商更有這個世界的競爭力就是說你在台灣做這個綠能的太陽能發電的或者是風力發電的台灣就這麼小的一個島所以你能夠做的其實是非常有限那我們台灣就是要多元的綠能那我在講菲律賓這個命題其實是菲律賓的總統跟日本的首相跟美國的總統在今年的4月"},{"start":16327.168,"end":16336.045,"text":"他們簽訂了一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個合約來部長我先拉回來阿你剛剛講到廠商的部分對不對所以就會讓大家"},{"start":16337.162,"end":16340.444,"text":"昨天本席特別看你昨天講的話你講的是說不一定是我們公部門去設電廠而是廠商去然後我們用購買電的方式對不對"},{"start":16357.253,"end":16382.303,"text":"那你又講說沒有這個是你天馬行空的想法連跟最基本的國安單位也都沒有討論過沒有錯因為我剛剛在外交國防委員會我請教國安局局長啊我說國安局到底有沒有做過評估如果說我們的電我們的戰略物資居然是要從國外進口那無怪乎大家會質疑啊無怪乎大家會覺得是說今天菲律賓政府"},{"start":16383.243,"end":16399.416,"text":"之前的領導人相對比較親中現在領導人可能親美但會不會換了領導人之後就有換不同的一個角度政策 政治我同意委員你的想法我們有辦法掌握嗎我同意你的想法所以我們在風險的評估部長你今天講出來的這些狀況會不會真的太噁心會怎麼樣會不會太噁心會不會讓我們這兩天"},{"start":16409.933,"end":16437.862,"text":"報紙 頭條推播 大家要講 哇 我們部長菲律賓來電我對這樣子的一個我自己的這個發言不夠精準我剛才也講過了 我非常抱歉但是我的意思是說在菲律賓他可以得到比較低成本的這樣的一個部長清楚菲律賓的電價跟台灣的電價比較嗎"},{"start":16439.514,"end":16439.674,"text":"實在話講我覺得還是"},{"start":16454.912,"end":16483.032,"text":"拉回來能源是務實的選項能源不是天馬行空的幻想能源是每天大家都要用的能源也是實實在在的數字沒有美化數字沒有虛冠數字沒有作假數字有就有沒有就沒有會去想不是從我們台灣內部來發電而是想是說從外部然後怎麼樣來跟人家每多一分其實就是把我講實在話講部長"},{"start":16484.793,"end":16501.864,"text":"如果說這個話是相對來說這個其他我們在野黨民意代表講出來說不定他徹意已經泡翻了就是說你根本就是把台灣的經濟命脈把台灣的能源掌握在別人手裡所以你的天馬行空你的"},{"start":16503.466,"end":16531.952,"text":"換想不要變成是我們因為你如果說今天不是部長的話你要講什麼我沒有意見因為我跟你沒有私人恩怨嘛但你今天正在部長我質詢的是經濟部長既然你身為經濟部長講的每一句每一話每一行每一言政策是長治久安是這個我以後會謹言慎行謝謝黃孟海委員謝謝部長我們接下來請李玉玲委員"},{"start":16540.041,"end":16541.404,"text":"謝謝主席請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":16549.656,"end":16569.712,"text":"文雲好部長辛苦了從你一上任經濟部長本席對你期待非常的大因為你來自產業瞭解產業的需求會從務實面來做好更多的管理尤其是台電的虧損我相信有你的運作帷幄你的經營管理"},{"start":16570.112,"end":16593.627,"text":"一定會讓他們轉虧為盈所以早上提了很多的從呂宋島也好從哪裡把電運回來這個都是10年以後的當然要未雨綢繆但是還是要從務實面著手所有的案子都必須要可行性的評估案子成熟之後我們再公告再來執行對不對所以我們今天就來從務實面來討論"},{"start":16596.849,"end":16618.979,"text":"電價現在已經上漲民生動漲我們在產業上漲了12.5%在漲的部分我們擔心的就是你漲了產業但是產業的成本這個就會轉嫁到消費者身上我們電價連續漲了這個4波之後的話你看我們民生就漲了將近要到12%"},{"start":16621.92,"end":16622.08,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16643.49,"end":16644.25,"text":"本期在這邊就要建議部長"},{"start":16664.156,"end":16670.06,"text":"我們必須要在台電的營運上面來看他到了2023年他虧損將近3826億到現在今年將近4400億在我們給台電增資2500億再給他們補助500億在1113年114年各補助1000億要高達5000億這個經費"},{"start":16687.668,"end":16711.097,"text":"所以我們一定要怎麼樣去開源節流怎麼樣去找財源就是這麼簡單所以本席特別去了解一下那現在因為天然氣本來是價格是高漲的現在已經回落了在回落的當下經濟部也是可以中中協調一下是不是請中油啊可以把這價格調降給台電"},{"start":16713.968,"end":16714.428,"text":"現在我們這個中油其實也是虧損的"},{"start":16737.3,"end":16748.436,"text":"現在因為這個價錢可能是合約式的但是現在我們的國際物價的話天然氣已經回落啦價錢都有降下來了嘛那所以是現在事實上現在價錢是多少錢呢"},{"start":16749.629,"end":16768.098,"text":"現在這價格其實是14.5的這個價格對啊所以是不是可以調降一些讓我們的台電成本的上原物料的成本上也可以調降下來那你也要去找其他的裁員讓他的損失可以再降低這方面"},{"start":16768.858,"end":16788.426,"text":"跟委員報告,這個油跟這個天然氣我們會從這個建制成本上面我們會去努力來降價我想這個也是您剛才知道,我想讓我們台電的成本可以下降這是一個非常重要的因素啦,所以我們朝這方面來努力"},{"start":16788.706,"end":16791.229,"text":"長這樣你會調漲嗎現在已經回落了你就要降下來了這個請部長去多多溝通啦幫台電多爭取一點其他方面也是要重視的就是說因為我們現在主要的電力都是以火力發電為主宰的那個發電的電力"},{"start":16807.324,"end":16819.515,"text":"所以我們看到在2025年我們的再生能源要達到20%但是到今年為止大概是12%而已那2050年的話要達到60%如果達不到我看"},{"start":16823.098,"end":16824.539,"text":"我們會參考委員的這個指教我們會深刻的檢討"},{"start":16852.799,"end":16865.444,"text":"因為我們特別提到這些的話就是能源政策能源的配比的問題啦所以剛剛看你的那個報告書裡面特別講到核電非核"},{"start":16866.411,"end":16868.812,"text":"合能這個命題 剛才也報告很多了就是我們基本上還是在這個"},{"start":16891.602,"end":16908.372,"text":"合廢料可以處理然後安全無慮那所有的跟我們所有的這個這個國人大家都同意我想在這個前提之下我們不排除任何新的科技所以可以討論可以討論是這個三個前提之下可以討論是"},{"start":16909.338,"end":16914.561,"text":"所以本席會這樣子問的意思就是說現在我們民生動漲了現在漲產業但是產業的話你們可能分為一般性跟所有必需性的一些產業去做調整這個電價但是我們看到半導體的產業他們在供電量是佔了16.5%是我們所有發電量的這個最重要他佔的比例是最高的或許我們可以研議讓使用耗電量最高的部分他也可以負責更高的電價"},{"start":16938.717,"end":16958.337,"text":"是 他們 我們目前的這個計價的方式 確實是這樣就是說用電最大的這個廠商 他們有一級的 我們是分級的所以 您剛所指教的這個大的用電商 它其實付的…所以半導體有比較高嗎?是比較高的它是比較高 到14%嗎?它現在是付的是比較高的它有到14% 15%嗎?有"},{"start":16960.662,"end":16977.538,"text":"王總你要說什麼上一次這一波電價是沒有在做區別但是上一次的條價4月份的條價是有所以應該可以繼續研議可以繼續這樣子做他既然是高耗電量我們就請他多負擔一點才不會對我們民生有更大的衝擊"},{"start":16978.599,"end":16996.975,"text":"其他的廠商我們是根據這個深度節能來幫助這一些比較中小的公司但是他用電耗電比較多的我們透過深度節能的方法大概可以看出績效因為每個公司產業不一樣我們可以看到大概可以省7%的這個電費"},{"start":17001.138,"end":17005.602,"text":"臺電才會轉虧為益這是非常重要的所以我們希望第一個就是部長去溝通這個我們的天然氣可不可以降價第二個就是讓我們的用電大戶高用電量的話可以調整他的電價再來的話我們希望的話就是讓我們的"},{"start":17024.998,"end":17039.673,"text":"所有綠電都能夠穩定這個部分的話想辦法趕快達標因為我們剛剛看你們所有的數字裡面科學數字部長喜歡說科學數字都我們擔心的是不能達標那在接下來本席要講的就是離岸風電剛剛早上大家有提到那3-1 3-2的話目前的話還是國產那本席要提醒的也是跟部長講的"},{"start":17048.502,"end":17049.042,"text":"我想會阿沒有阿"},{"start":17076.394,"end":17077.035,"text":"政府所簽訂的合約內容是不能改變的"},{"start":17092.995,"end":17094.536,"text":"是 報告委員 我們現在的目的就是幫助國產化的這個廠商"},{"start":17118.422,"end":17122.083,"text":"提醒女士當然他沒有競爭力他們雖然是出的草創來成軍但是我們政府當然要輔導他但他投下去的成本一開始是這麼龐大的不能因為一開始就把他丟到國際上去跟他競爭這樣子的話他競爭力會"},{"start":17146.769,"end":17146.929,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17163.261,"end":17187.75,"text":"現在因為我們去遵照我們蔡英文總統的這個政策去投入了這個資金現在他們已經投入了也整軍完成了我們要繼續輔導他畢竟這是國產的我們才會鞏固自己的發電的能量這才是永續的好不好是沒有錯是的那請部長特別要注意注重這一點因為國產的還是需要靠我們經濟部來扶持的是好謝謝謝謝李議員委員謝謝部長"},{"start":17191.946,"end":17193.127,"text":"我們接下來請黃國昌委員謝謝主席﹖有請經濟部國部長請國部長"},{"start":17218.123,"end":17238.434,"text":"委員好部長上次院會總質詢的時候我請教我們的行政院院長卓榮泰卓院長有關於在電力、能源、發電、配比賴清德政府的路徑那個時候你應該是因公出國沒有在院會裡但是次長來了"},{"start":17240.174,"end":17261.127,"text":"國發處會主委也在旁邊上個會期在經濟組總質詢的時候我提出這個問題我必須要先跟部長講對整個再生能源發展的路徑一片空白我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝因為那一天包括院長以及兩個部會最重要的主管在質詢台上完全沒有辦法"},{"start":17262.188,"end":17289.255,"text":"回答我所提出來的問題那當然在議會的時候總諮詢沒有辦法回答問題我一定給行政部門時間回去好好的思考回去好好的規劃因為能源轉型電力配比不能只有口號如果只有口號的話那接下來接下來大家會非常的擔心政府不是這樣子幹的"},{"start":17290.935,"end":17313.545,"text":"我想把這個基本的前提先跟部長說明完了以後我們來先確認一件事第一個事情之前蔡英文總統2025年的時候再生能源佔比要達到20%那基本上是確定跳票了啦確定跳票了那所以我們的賴清德總統提出了一個新的目標到2026年的時候要實現20%那政府"},{"start":17318.468,"end":17342.085,"text":"畫了這樣的一個目標喊了這樣的一個口號那我就看到底這個路徑是怎麼樣來請部長先仔細看我們從2016年到2024年過去8年再生能源增加了4.9%按照經濟部行政院會後提供給我的資料來我們先來看第一段"},{"start":17342.915,"end":17355.602,"text":"第一段是到2026年的11月就賴清德總統所講的2026年的11月從現在2024年到2026年的11月要再增加9.5%過去8年增加了4.9%接下來的兩年三個月要再增加9.5%部長你覺得這個實際不實際"},{"start":17369.502,"end":17395.113,"text":"我報告這個委員我想這個不是線性的關係這個我們在原本來2025年就可以達成的目標因為一些材料的關係因為戰爭的關係所以他必須要在延11個月到2026年的11月我想以我們現在所了解的進度這個目標應該是可以達成的"},{"start":17395.593,"end":17402.238,"text":"這目標可以達成嗎?剛剛部長講得很好這不是線性的關係嘛那如果不是線性的關係的話部長"},{"start":17405.582,"end":17430.024,"text":"當過企業的董事長是針對這整個進度啊你可以回去看一下些如果不是線性的關係看可不可以寫個函數啊寫個函數出來讓大家了解我們政府怎麼規劃我為什麼說這樣講如果不是線性的關係來我們再接下來往後看結果到了2028年的時候在一年一個月只增加1.3%了"},{"start":17432.23,"end":17457.986,"text":"那很怪囉兩年三個月火速飛快可以增加9.5%在一年一個月只可以增加1.3%剛剛部長講得很好啊這不是線性的關係啊你要函數解釋也可以啊但我沒有辦法理解的是這個到底是一個什麼樣子的進度規劃你看了不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":17459.947,"end":17487.198,"text":"這是裝置量的問題我們的政府我們的政府在做這一些目標設定的時候當然啦齁今天你在這邊所講的話在國會都會留下記錄嗎當然時間到了以後有兌現沒有兌現到時候都可以檢證只不過說在我國比較遺憾的也是很多企業界在詬病的我們的政府喊口號講計畫是很會"},{"start":17489.759,"end":17510.214,"text":"到時候在檢驗的時候啊 通常是什麼不堪檢驗不堪檢驗因為呢你到2028年你到2028年的時候再增加1.3到了2030年的時候突然又要增加8.7部長你真的有看過這個目標寫出來的時候他們有給你詳細的內容嗎還是口號隨便喊一喊"},{"start":17515.219,"end":17541.033,"text":"根據這個委員剛才的這個數字啊我在這個部裡面我們在討論的時候是有這些數字我也跟委員一樣懷疑達成率會多少但是以目前他們所掌握的這個數字確實是可以履約的好部長你顯然看到了一些我沒有看到的數字嗎他們怎麼跟你報告的"},{"start":17542.219,"end":17546.56,"text":"怎麼樣透過這種非常詭異的速度"},{"start":17547.606,"end":17574.378,"text":"接下來的兩年三個月要增加9.5%喔然後再往後的一年一個月突然慢下來了只增加1.3%接下來兩年又加速了又到8.7%這個喔全部都是你們給我的數字那顯然有一些基礎的判斷資料可能部長有掌握嘛掌握那個複雜的函數的基礎資料但我沒掌握會後提供給我可以嗎?他是因為風場不一樣"},{"start":17576.039,"end":17601.628,"text":"然後那個風機的這個設置的這個速度跟時間不一樣沒有關係啦部長你來自企業界我相信企業界的人士喜歡看實際的數字嘛喜歡看data嘛具體要怎麼落實嘛不是數字隨便填一填嘛所以我才說顯然你有看到一些基礎資料是我們其他委員都沒看到的是不是可以提供給大家"},{"start":17603.346,"end":17623.797,"text":"有困難嗎?可以 沒困難可以嘛 那我們再講比較具體的就好 因為時間到 我只問最後一個問題我再講比較具體的是剛剛那個是overall的數字嘛那我們現在就要切細的看喔包括太陽光電 包括風力 你們的占比到底要怎麼樣調整 怎麼樣變化"},{"start":17626.238,"end":17639.466,"text":"按照目前經濟部所交給我的是說就太陽光電的部分你們到2026年的時候會增加到9.4%到2028年的時候會增加到10%現在是多少部長你知道嗎5.2現在是5.2嘛所以到2026年11月的時候可以到9.4你看到的數字也有信心"},{"start":17656.499,"end":17683.739,"text":"報告這個太陽能是比較快的大概兩年就可以達到預定的目標阿其他的風力阿或者是其他的燃煤阿或者是燃氣的都要六年才有辦法按照您剛所講太陽能比較快嘛所以從現在開始算大概兩年可以增加4%多嘛對嘛然後到2028年的時候只能增加0.6%"},{"start":17686.134,"end":17710.053,"text":"部長您看一下你們經濟部給我的數字這沒有錯 因為這個還是要看場域啦我們是可以同意他來設置會後把你看的data跟大家講因為這個函數啊 真的太奇怪了不是 他沒有函數關係啦沒有關係嘛你基本上面的基礎資料提供給大家嘛我看看你們到底是怎麼做計畫的嘛"},{"start":17710.653,"end":17729.363,"text":"接下來要達成你們的目標,你們太陽光電還要增加多少GW,地面型的?增加5GW你們上來齁,要協助部長齁,基礎資料自己要掌握好啦"},{"start":17730.456,"end":17741.728,"text":"這個都是你們經濟部給的數字啦從2016年到現在2024年6月5GW未來還要再增加多少要達到你們的目標到2026年要6.8GW接下來6.8GW需要多少土地"},{"start":17754.498,"end":17778.797,"text":"6.8GW如果扣掉地面型跟屋頂型的話沒有沒有6.8全部都是地面型的啦如果6.8GW大概就算6千公頃的土地怎麼6.8GW是只有純地面型的你都不是那麼清楚喔清楚6.8GW需要幾公頃約6千公頃的土地盤點好了嗎這部分還要跨部會的協商所以現在還沒有盤點好嗎是嗎請部長"},{"start":17784.179,"end":17807.167,"text":"報告委員剛部長講裝置容量嘛那你要裝這個東西我也是跟你講地面型的嘛就要土地嘛但是站在你旁邊那位先生說還要跨部會協商嘛所以你看到的基礎資料您所講的裝置容量現在連地在哪裡都還沒有盤點我有說錯嗎報告委員 這個地的部分我們跟農委會都有在談"},{"start":17809.628,"end":17830.957,"text":"謝謝黃委員時間超過很多農業部的部分事實上是有您剛才所提到的沒有關係剛剛主席主席已經站起來提醒我時間到了最後一樣會後請您把你們盤點好的地可以按照這樣子的計畫進行把那個具體的計畫內容提供給我這樣可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":17837.547,"end":17838.087,"text":"請王毅民委員質詢。"},{"start":17859.326,"end":17886.223,"text":"部長今天的報告其實已經指出來太陽光電20GW這個目標其實已經是跳票了但是你重新給了一個目標就是2026年你可以達到但是計算現在的缺口大概將近7GW這麼多那剛剛也有委員提到說7GW你到底地面型要設置多少屋頂型要多少你可不可以再重新講一次你們精確的數字"},{"start":17888.612,"end":17916.916,"text":"我可不可以請能源署署長好來署長你說好跟委員報告我們在規劃的時候大概一般是50%的屋頂型50%的地面型的總體來看那我們也有設定一個20GW的總目標屋頂8地面12那8的部分我們目前已經達成了可是會繼續推屋頂如果做得多有效的可以紓解地面型所以我問你嘛這7GW多少是地面多少是屋頂沒有答案還不知道"},{"start":17917.797,"end":17935.965,"text":"我們現在就是屋頂型的已經達到那是地面型原則上是地面型那如果原則上都是地面型的話你們剛剛說要超過6000公頃的土地那這個地從哪裡來有沒有一個方向跟目標"},{"start":17938.467,"end":17952.507,"text":"最大規模的比例會來自什麼樣的土地?我們推這個漁電共生大概會有多大面積?基本上漁電共生它是有這個農業部它給我們的土地大概有2萬公頃"},{"start":17953.885,"end":17970.426,"text":"兩萬公頃是所以已經超過你需要的土地是這麼大是所以完全可以移來這邊可以好那就部長你這句話接下來我就要問你既然是這樣子為什麼現在光電業者要入侵到社區去在社區裡面"},{"start":17972.048,"end":17992.689,"text":"大量的重電造成這個社區裡面這個鄉親的困擾我讓你看了這張圖這個是嘉義縣大埔鄉這個光電業者他在這個活動中心供老人用餐的地方你看看周遭通通都是光電板學校附近也是光電板住家附近也是光電板"},{"start":17993.63,"end":18012.688,"text":"在10月11號還爆發嚴重的衝突這個光業業者進行施工然後怪車怪手司機他還要去衝撞這個阻擋的村民這件事情部長知不知道報告委員這個案子我想他是合法申請"},{"start":18013.709,"end":18029.528,"text":"然後得到這個嘉義縣政府合法的同意被查你剛看到那個畫面了合法申請你認為你們現在的規則沒有問題嗎連卓院長我在立法院問他的時候院會質詢他都覺得這看起來是不合理"},{"start":18030.902,"end":18036.308,"text":"院長一定有交辦經濟部那你收到了沒?你們開始處理了沒?署長你有在處理嗎?有處理現在處理的情況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":18050.866,"end":18064.375,"text":"報言因為這個案子我們大概知道現場他是一個都市計畫的住宅區那依法當然他可以設置不過確實如剛剛委員的相片所顯示的他跟周遭的環境之間可能有一些比較鄰近的這些問題所以我們請縣府跟業者"},{"start":18066.957,"end":18077.508,"text":"要跟我們的鄉親做好充分的溝通希望能夠達成有在做嗎我跟你說沒有在做明天這些鄉親就要包遊覽車上來到行政院去抗議了我給這個部長看一下你們現在其實存在的問題就是你們根本對這種社區型的你們是不設防的"},{"start":18088.139,"end":18108.468,"text":"剛剛署長講只要地主同意就蓋啊那他如果像台南小二甲化整為零我分批來你就會看到剛剛這樣子大面積的通通都是但是有沒有審核沒有審核標準所以你們現在對於這種社區型的既然你說光是漁業署這樣的土地已經夠了我要求這種社區型的要嚴格的審核而且要一個審核的標準"},{"start":18112.89,"end":18138.908,"text":"你們現在其實都沒有包括社區學校醫院旁邊如果他種光電板你們現在是不適合訪的所以大埔會出現這樣子那你剛剛看到一個很荒謬的畫面連卓院長都覺得荒謬就是這麼小的社區這麼大量的一個光電板你根本沒有走面積的一個上限你沒有個容量的上限而且需不需要經過居民同意也完全不需要所以現在大埔的居民是求助無門"},{"start":18139.949,"end":18140.089,"text":"這我們會深刻檢討"},{"start":18161.604,"end":18183.675,"text":"好那我就希望這個部長今天已經知道這個問題的嚴重性你也覺得未來不需要入侵到社區去設這些光電板那這一類型的就應該要嚴審而且不需要再設置了另外一點曾文水庫絕對不可以蓋光電板這一家光電業者還申請要在水庫上面蓋光電板他是被嘉義縣議會"},{"start":18185.896,"end":18192.322,"text":"就是做成決議暫緩是暫緩沒有撤銷我希望這個案子這個經濟部要嚴審徵問水庫是江南地區的大的水庫的命脈怎麼可以允許這麼荒謬在水庫上面去蓋光電板既然我們已經夠用了我覺得這一類水庫學校醫院社區應該都要禁止不應該再入侵了可以嗎是謝謝委員好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":18216.789,"end":18227.186,"text":"請陳昭志委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請台電董事長 請郭部長 曾董事長"},{"start":18235.18,"end":18262.923,"text":"委員好部長好我的背景是藥學在食藥署他對於製藥工程的管理有一套這個品質規範那就是跟國際接軌從早期的GMP到後來的CGMP甚至現在的PIX GMP都是為了有一個精神就是他生產的東西的品質要有一致性所以我想不論是藥品或是工業的產品所有的品質要有一致性我不曉得部長您同不同意這樣的一個觀點"},{"start":18264.164,"end":18277.391,"text":"完全同意那部長您過去在加入這個團隊之前您是在產業界有所謂的斜槓經紀人的美稱除了半導體的科技業您也涉足食品水產環保健康光電跟綠能等產業那我想請問部長部長當你蓋一個廠房的時候那你會先供應商購買這個所謂的這個設備器材"},{"start":18286.415,"end":18307.432,"text":"請問你可以接受廠商給你不符合採購要求或是不合格的產品嗎?你會同意嗎?當然不會同意但是部長請看這個大林電廠更新改建工程從2012年開始他到今天為止光是跟煤倉有關的更新改建工程他花了80億元"},{"start":18309.373,"end":18332.779,"text":"因為梅艙是所謂的晨爆、氣爆的高風險區所以所謂的它要使用的防爆器材必須是國家TS認證的一個防爆電機管配件但是我們發現目前安裝在大林電廠上的防爆配管件無論是哪一家公司、盟獄、政賀或是申方"},{"start":18333.539,"end":18349.988,"text":"都有不合格的狀況這件事民眾黨在9月30號提出報有了記者會請問部長知道這件事嗎我有耳聞好部長還不知道好那我本來期待經濟部跟台電內部已經有的這個內部的調查董事長知道嗎"},{"start":18352.321,"end":18368.938,"text":"知道告訴我知不知道這件事情我知道這件事情那根據這個國家的標準CNS3376標準裡面講得很清楚爆炸性的環境我們使用的金屬器材對於鋁、鎂、鈦、鈠有含量的限制為什麼呢"},{"start":18369.699,"end":18398.326,"text":"因為這些金屬是屬於助燃物它會幫助燃燒所以絕對不能用來這個作為防爆另外有個東西叫做縮狀石墨鑄鐵它也因為這個根據CNS14438的標準在製造過程中在製造過程中它會加入這些金屬鎂、鈦、鎬去幫助它的求化率會提高就是有這樣的一個情況部長、董事長我們來看這個防爆配管件金屬材料要比的是什麼"},{"start":18399.086,"end":18407.174,"text":"拉伸的強度,第一個最理想的就是球末鑄鐵,它的標準化球化率需要80%以上再來是可鑽鑄鐵,但是可鑽鑄鐵可能是因為環保的因素已經大概超過10年不生產了,國際不生產了,可能買不到"},{"start":18415.382,"end":18430.74,"text":"那最下階的就是灰口鑄鐵灰口鑄鐵它是不能使用的因為它的這個拉伸度不夠你知道外面的那個水溝蓋倒入的時候就是用的就是灰石鑄鐵那碩木鑄鐵我剛剛提到因為它裡面有一些金屬那些金屬會鑄燃所以它不能用"},{"start":18432.642,"end":18441.565,"text":"那部長董事長大林電廠更新改建工程合約要求當然也要求了合約可斷鑄鐵或鋼或是球末鑄鐵這是OK的但是請部長董事長看這張今年8月6號職安署的大林這個電廠去抽測結果10件有6件不合格"},{"start":18453.764,"end":18469.758,"text":"裡面有五件就是含了這個有很多所謂的剛剛我講的幾個金屬的這個縮狀這個鑄鐵另外還有一件它含的是灰口鑄鐵根本不防爆另外五個是會助燃的防爆器這是8月6號執安署去抽查出來的結果"},{"start":18471.039,"end":18471.699,"text":"我可以請董事長來回答嗎?"},{"start":18496.718,"end":18513.324,"text":"不然一起看下面那個紡織品另外有一家政客公司它的原型接線盒也是為了用於防爆你看同樣一家公司它提供的有違品的求化率是0也有真的92%這是以假亂真以次充好以列充好啊到底這些防爆品是誰賣進去的誰交給台電的台電怎麼驗收好請解釋謝謝"},{"start":18520.458,"end":18533.686,"text":"我跟委員報告就說就剛才鄭如婷您所說的現在因為各種的防暴設施他的品項非常的多那簡單來講我們現在是用他有認證有TS標章那這幾個產品確實有TS標章那這個TS標章在核發的時候是不是這些廠商有作假這個我們現在會查"},{"start":18545.493,"end":18558.79,"text":"這是第一件事第二件事情就是這個地方所需要做的防爆的規範跟要求對台電來講這個規格是高的所以我們也要求工程單位跟電廠針對這個部分開始做更全面的檢測"},{"start":18564.137,"end":18583.853,"text":"兩位首長下一張2020年台電就知情了你用到的那個最大的Apple Atom的這個仿製品照片上這位就是南部司空處的正信經理他當時就跟這個現在樂鐵的台灣代表拿了兩個圓形接鑑盒桌上就是那兩個圓形接鑑盒送到金屬中心去檢測"},{"start":18585.094,"end":18602.03,"text":"照片桌面那兩個圓形接線大家看得到右邊就是工作委託單很奇怪喔這個工作委託單這個正信定裡沒有具名喔他叫同仁具名這是什麼意思這是什麼意思好那這個檢查結果呢你可以看到這個檢查結果左邊是寫"},{"start":18603.598,"end":18606.22,"text":"請問正信經理有把這件事呈報給台電總公司嗎?請問你們知情嗎?"},{"start":18627.128,"end":18628.489,"text":"指安署的這個檢測報告是在最近才給我們"},{"start":18655.845,"end":18656.726,"text":"我們現在知道 既然知道廠商都會做假"},{"start":18681.286,"end":18681.746,"text":"請高金委員質詢"},{"start":18718.717,"end":18718.877,"text":"主席"},{"start":18744.448,"end":18744.808,"text":"五個多月吧"},{"start":18763.038,"end":18789.784,"text":"有沒有覺得很疲累不會可是我看到你很疲累我看到你的心非常的疲憊剛剛從黃國昌委員一直到這個周知委員你好像都已經沒有辦法招架了那我今天其實要提醒你的就是大家給你非常多的期待跟期望我們希望你依然是帶著初心來到這個地方就是為人民服務"},{"start":18791.4,"end":18793.446,"text":"用您的專業跟您經營企業的心態還有手腕"},{"start":18799.843,"end":18822.384,"text":"來好好的做這個位置今天我沒有很深入的問題我只是講一個非常邏輯的問題看一下能源配比本末倒置用電政策舍本逐末您可以不要及時的回答就好好看一下我給你整理的一些資料民進黨他從1990年代他就開始反核運動了"},{"start":18823.785,"end":18837.798,"text":"當時呢他就喊出了非核家園的運動理想經過了20多年到了2016年這個反核理想變成了就是2025年的非核家園的政策目標當時您還在企業界我想問您當時的態度是什麼你說這個能源的配比嗎能源的政策非核家園"},{"start":18846.421,"end":18859.668,"text":"這個不是我的這個我經濟部部長執行這個當時你在企業你看到我們的民進黨政府要把2025非核加嚴政策當作他的執行目標了你的看法是什麼"},{"start":18860.359,"end":18872.226,"text":"我那個時候沒有什麼看法了因為我大概就明天都會去考慮這個能源你是民間的董事長耶好我們看一下當年蔡英文政府提出這個政策目標齁2025年能源發電的結構比是天然氣要佔50%會影響到你們的這個喔企業喔燃煤佔了30%這會影響我們的空氣喔"},{"start":18884.594,"end":18904.248,"text":"再生能源佔了20%能不能達到我相信您是一個有名的董事長產業界的榔頭老大你應該都清楚好了現在8年過去了依照經濟部今年發布的2023年全國電力的資源供需報告能源發電的結構佔比燃煤仍然是最高的所以呢"},{"start":18905.129,"end":18911.293,"text":"我們的空氣會越來越壞它的占比是42.24%我們的天然氣還是第二占了39.57%核能減少了將近一半6.31%7月底核三廠關閉"},{"start":18920.9,"end":18930.351,"text":"只剩下了3%而我們也清楚知道必按連連的再生能源它卻成長有限從5%只增長到9.47%經濟部你們今年預估2025年的再生能源的佔比只能達到15%"},{"start":18938.8,"end":18960.046,"text":"然而原先設定的20%的政策目標要推遲到2026年的11月才能夠達標這已經是第二次的推遲了民進黨政府在2025年非核家園的理想為什麼到現在還沒有辦法兌現呢有人說是因為新冠疫情的影響有人說是惡霧戰爭的結果這理由我認為都說不過去啦"},{"start":18960.606,"end":18981.487,"text":"我認為要實現一個重大的能源的轉型目標是一個風險很大的政策對吧要實現這種轉變需要的是穩健的政策對不對對吧同意齁可是民進黨政府他們卻急於求成現在核能雖然已經如民進黨所願幾乎要停掉了"},{"start":18982.048,"end":19009.958,"text":"但是我們的再生能源這個部分就算貪多求快目標也一拖再拖不能夠達標然而弊案連連這種能源配比的目標根本就是本末倒置只要我認為只要正本清源合理運用現有的發電能源也就是核能我們的能源配比是可以穩健轉型的但是呢我們的民進黨政府就是不願意放棄2025年的非核家園的執念這也是我覺得你心內的問題"},{"start":19011.178,"end":19013.84,"text":"河電減少了之後,就必須要南電北送。"},{"start":19041.779,"end":19046.545,"text":"強化電網韌性建設計畫這是人民的納稅錢喔臺電又說要用來發電的國際能源價格大漲了我們如果再繼續買下去臺電就要破產了於是呢我們民進黨政府這兩年又要增資撥補了多少?10千億"},{"start":19059.801,"end":19064.145,"text":"然後我們的民進黨政府拿人民的納稅錢撇補了台電然後的問題解決了嗎沒有解決台電繼續要漲電價這3年來我們看一下我們台電漲了3次的電價漲幅是30%我相信你應該很清楚"},{"start":19076.115,"end":19082.263,"text":"今年4月漲完電價之後臺電又講了他說如果不再繼續撥補的話電價還要再漲12%12%結果呢民進黨政府又編了多少1000億的撥補預算還漲了電價平均的漲幅超過了12%過去的8年"},{"start":19095.039,"end":19105.288,"text":"你不在沒關係我們民進黨政府他編列了誠意上照的能源轉型預算明年也就是114年度我們的預算繼續要編多少1161億還有一個什麼呢6年9000億的2030淨零轉型計畫我們看一下蔡英文砸大錢拼了8年我們的綠能配比也增加不到5%"},{"start":19123.143,"end":19143.785,"text":"未來的6年要達到配比20%這有可能嗎?請問我們在努力讓綠能在2026年能夠達到20%有很多細節問題黃國昌委員都問了但是今天我要再問你一個你看一下今天的頭版頭條都是你的新聞"},{"start":19145.387,"end":19161.453,"text":"部長你知道你又犯了什麼錯誤嗎你又犯了民進黨把理想當政策的錯誤我認為以您這位企業家的經歷你不應該會犯這種錯誤啊你看一下今天您的頭條新聞部長你要不要看一下你要到菲律賓到日本蓋綠電廠啊"},{"start":19169.675,"end":19187.487,"text":"這個是一個比較大的命題的討論啦但是我想我跟媒體的溝通沒有很好所以他會截這一段來放大說明所以我也感到很抱歉我自己的這個言語不夠精準沒有把這件事情表達得很好那所以要嗎?會做嗎?這件事情"},{"start":19189.448,"end":19189.468,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":19223.374,"end":19238.958,"text":"請廖偉祥委員發質詢謝謝主席 邀請部長請郭部長"},{"start":19246.977,"end":19269.883,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛高金委員講的一切在我總質詢的時候應該也有講過類似的話題然後就是說我們現在能源配比就好比是在打棒球賽一樣根本就是硬要堅持這樣做是打假球的一個行為那身為球隊總經理其實當初我想大家看到您來接這個經濟部長的時候是希望你在"},{"start":19270.883,"end":19284.676,"text":"業界的經驗然後你是企業家你可以有理性務實然後真正可以幫我們做理性的判斷但現在看到這樣子實在是令人覺得不知道是你有沒有持續保持這個初心所以我也是呼應一下剛剛我們高經緯委員說的"},{"start":19286.457,"end":19296.304,"text":"那甚至是您剛剛的這個這個想要去菲律賓日本設電廠的這個問題那這個我們等一下再來討論但是在開始之前我還是想要先問一下部長因為上一次您沒有來是次長來可是我有提到一個問題就是我有收到民間的陳情就是這個藥局因為藥商藥廠因為這次被漲電價所以他就要求說他的所有藥要乘以1.1給藥局對不對這個部分"},{"start":19314.056,"end":19315.756,"text":"因為這個不是需要溝通的問題啦"},{"start":19339.631,"end":19357.042,"text":"這當然可以溝通我只想問他有沒有來跟您提過這個類似的事情因為我當初其實我也有把那個資料用出來就是說這個他們有沒有去跟你溝通這個問題我想知道有沒有而已啦衛福部長有沒有跟我們郭部長這邊來溝通或是相關的單位有沒有溝通這個問題"},{"start":19365.178,"end":19378.735,"text":"這個問題應該有吧?跟委員報告齁,因為一般的藥房都是那個用電比較小,都是累積的那個你就不用解釋,我只問有沒有來溝通這件事因為我當時就有請他去溝通,他答應我說要溝通,請問有溝通嗎?是啊,我們會溝通啦"},{"start":19381.358,"end":19400.671,"text":"阿有沒有嘛沒有嘛對不對因為你說不是這樣子溝通就有用可是為什麼當初這個菸草和這個我們的醫療診所就馬上就那個新聞一爆出來你們馬上轉彎了沒關係我只想知道他有沒有溝通阿這是第一件事我報告委員齁我想這個菸草那個事情齁是我們台灣沒有不用解釋那個我沒有要問那個問題我只是一樣回到我的問題就是說我們的衛福部長有沒有跟我們經濟部這邊來討論有關於這部分有這樣子的需求或者是因為這樣子因為現在"},{"start":19410.157,"end":19417.484,"text":"我們的部署裡面應該就是有溝通啦 但是沒有直接跟你溝通因為我比較忙一點啦那我直接再跳下面好了 這題反正就是沒有跟你直接溝通啦 因為你比較忙 他比較不忙"},{"start":19433.439,"end":19452.527,"text":"我想要請問您發想要去菲律賓和日本等地蓋電廠會有這樣的想法主要的目的是因為國內電力供應不穩嗎還是因為提供國內的綠電需求一或者兩者都要有不是這樣子這個我從早上到現在大概已經講了20次了對"},{"start":19454.989,"end":19474.665,"text":"我們到菲律賓這是一個命題跟國內的綠電完全沒有關係但是部長您要知道這個命題在這個時間點出現就是會讓人民很恐慌的事情對我的言語不夠精準非常抱歉這真的是讓人覺得天馬行空並急亂投移真的是讓人覺得很緊張因為當初我們就已經講過討論過這個所有能源配比的問題"},{"start":19480.429,"end":19501.76,"text":"所以在這邊要跟委員報告這一個跟我們的能源政策是沒有關係的所以這只是國際討論在研討這個能源的時候這其中一個重要的命題好部長那另外這個碳費費率已經公佈了嘛那根據已公告的碳費收費辦法的第3條"},{"start":19502.6,"end":19525.891,"text":"那大概就是有這個範疇一製程與設施再加上範疇二有間接能源的部分超過2.5萬噸則收這個碳費的部分了那我想關於製程跟設施的提升和改善當然政府要輔導可是主要也是企業自己在努力阿他們也在努力了嘛對不對但範疇二的部分呢就是這個間接能源的部分可是目前依照我們這樣子的能源配比"},{"start":19527.411,"end":19551.51,"text":"這個部分其實就是削弱了他們國際上的競爭力如果比起那些用電這個有一些國家能源配比比較合理的甚至有用核能發電平均去發電的這樣子的這樣子的企業對他們來講我們國家我們國內的這些廠商是不是會面臨到很大的競爭的問題因為他也在這個範球位的部分是我們錯誤的能源配比我想請教部長這個你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":19552.538,"end":19571.95,"text":"政策會因為這個時間而改變沒有說哪一個時間它是正確哪一個時間是錯誤所以你的意思是說未來可能會改變決定要用核能是這樣嗎還是不一定還是說這個能源配比所以這個能源配比也只是暫時性的不會說只有50%就是多久會變我們現在這個都是在與時俱進所以這是滾動式的討論我們會滾動式的討論然後會seeking所有新的能源"},{"start":19578.053,"end":19594.94,"text":"所有可以用的可以降低成本的能源我們都可以用是部長但是你們現在這樣子就是讓人民很害怕因為這時間是不等人的啦你以為隨便想要蓋一個核能廠或是核能廠要研議隨時就可以有嗎當然不是嘛一個核電廠要6年然後一個核能廠研議要3年對所以我要說你們當初能源的發展綱領也8年多沒調整你跟我說滾動式調整"},{"start":19601.983,"end":19624.372,"text":"我是說從現在開始我沒有講說過去8年我沒有參與所以我沒有辦法回答過去8年為什麼沒有調整但是從現在開始我跟你們報告的就是我們會滾動式的調整請這個委員能夠了解也知道說我們在努力啊為國人的這個用電上面創造一個新的環境"},{"start":19624.872,"end":19625.653,"text":"我請部長要務實的幫助企業幫助我們國家解決這樣的問題好 謝謝"},{"start":19665.688,"end":19680.18,"text":"請黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝主席然後一樣請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":19688.857,"end":19712.07,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長好 辛苦了 下午2點還這麼多委員在這邊質詢啊我想後面很多人繼續問了 我想當然主因當然這跟部長昨天的發言有很大的關係部長雖然說你剛剛已經跟委員們致歉了 但是我想繼續了解一下這個天馬行空的這個想法從何而來因為我想這個大家都看到新聞了 6月17號 雲報能源宣布他們在菲律賓來插集 採取太陽能"},{"start":19712.728,"end":19712.908,"text":"報告委員．"},{"start":19728.531,"end":19743.789,"text":"這兩件事情完全是獨立事件我也不清楚雲報公司到菲律賓去投資的這個事情我這個到菲律賓這個案件其實是我們在這個斯坂明夫他在創建這個所謂的"},{"start":19746.632,"end":19774.235,"text":"印太這個我看到你新聞上有回應你是在這個智庫上的這個各國大使給你建議的嘛這個他們啊這因為這個美國的大使日本的大使都在談這個所謂民主聯盟然後大家對未來的這個世界上面大家應該要互通這個在共同可以大家友好的部分所以才談到能源的部分那這個能源我個人認為因為"},{"start":19776.641,"end":19798.34,"text":"菲律賓、美國、日本在今年的4月他們的領導人共同簽了一個旅送經濟計畫這個剛剛尚偉回應過沒關係這我知道只是好奇啦如果這第一個點是說你不知道這事情但是你不知道也不應該啦坦白說如果我國廠商出去投資你沒有掌握這件事情本身也是有點奇怪我可以提醒一下部長"},{"start":19799.161,"end":19800.062,"text":"因為我們台灣土地是有限的"},{"start":19827.159,"end":19847.946,"text":"然後我們的海岸也是有限的但是綠能的業者他有經濟規模當他的這個經濟規模達到的時候他可以充分的降低他的成本好 謝謝部長提到的這就是企業經營的角度畢竟你從企業界來啦如果今天我們真的去國外買綠電比較便宜的話那我們國內幹嘛還要繼續發展這件事情呢"},{"start":19848.686,"end":19873.097,"text":"國內還是要發展這個綠電啊那這麼高啊 如果從企業經營角度你今天你從企業界來理論上你也知道說我們現在綠電成本可能相對比國外高嘛那既然你都覺得說去國外買的價格遠低於本土綠電那不是應該鼓勵我們國內的廠商去國外買綠電嗎這個 這有兩個不同的意義啦如果在國外可以幫助他降低成本"},{"start":19874.017,"end":19889.944,"text":"事實上它可以在國外去發揮國內的產業可以到國外去發揮這個是非常重要的成本觀念我是說今天你要的你今天提到這個日本或菲律賓的目的就是因為你說去國外買這個綠電對本土廠商來講比較便宜是嗎"},{"start":19892.779,"end":19919.094,"text":"本土廠商也可以到他們的那個地方去發展那我們不就產業不就外移了我的意思是這樣嘛產業外移這個是產業必須要有國際競爭力因為國家這個我們台灣的這個市場是比較小的我跟那個委員報告如果今天國外的綠電比較便宜那我們希望檢討國內的綠電能不能跟國外一樣便宜不然這樣真的對台灣的本土競爭是有問題的台灣的市場太小了啦"},{"start":19921.775,"end":19942.365,"text":"我們不能夠讓台灣的廠商只看台灣這麼小的市場對不起時間不夠那我繼續講這個部長提到說這個2000億撥補給你2000億你可以讓大家未來可能未來兩年不漲電價這是你的承諾如果2000億之後漲了你準備下台這是你講的嗎對好那部長我們試算一個表格過去這些年過去10年來"},{"start":19943.886,"end":19964.559,"text":"臺電以前有賺錢所以有所謂的電價穩定準備金以前都用電價穩定準備金來撥補那從112年之後因為這個電價穩定準備金花完了臺電自己沒有錢了所以現在用政府預算來撥補所以陸陸續續一直在撥補來包含政府之前增值2500億那你現在提到還要再2000億部長我們看一張圖我們試算一下2000億什麼概念兩年"},{"start":19965.419,"end":19989.047,"text":"如果臺灣2300萬人每人負擔就是8696元兩年電價有12期電費平均一個人要付725元以四口之家它等於我什麼就像我很省電我是民生用電啊我在家用電啊但是你四口之家等於莫名其妙如果真的政府今天立法院同意你撥補2000億給台電我等於從每個人口袋裡面每一期電費掏出2900元的電費出來"},{"start":19992.241,"end":19997.243,"text":"政府是股東要拿2000出來幫台電去補這個2000億的缺口那你要怎麼樣做到後續這兩年能夠確定成本不會再上漲那你才能夠把盈餘補回來"},{"start":20021.973,"end":20028.778,"text":"部長你這樣講的話意思就是你等於是變相用漲電價的方式補回來嗎那你今天使用者付費如果使用者付費的觀念要建立起來的話"},{"start":20051.255,"end":20055.278,"text":"我們補貼的都是小的用戶啊小的商家啊、不是住家啊這一些就是比較弱勢的啊我如果2000同意了之後"},{"start":20074.259,"end":20098.173,"text":"所以委員您的指教就是說使用者付費?當然第一個使用者付費 第二個如果你真的堅持要這2000億你要提出你要今天等於你在辦公室增資的意思嘛你要發行新股嘛 2000億要去填補過去的虧損嘛"},{"start":20099.153,"end":20124.34,"text":"那兩千億給你之後你總是要提出一個財務規劃我們提出就是我們會努力來改善這個整個台鐵的這個結構成本結構那你要算出來你要提供報告讓民眾讓立法院知道說你的兩千億未來兩年你要怎麼樣去把這個缺口補起來然後保證那個是補貼不是增資所以我跟您如果是股東的話我也鄭重在這裡跟你報告"},{"start":20125.18,"end":20139.649,"text":"就是說我們會去努力這個補貼了他這個這個財務的這個過去的損失啊這個損失是因為去照顧我們的中小的家庭你這個2000億補進去過去的缺口補起來未來兩年你的這個臺電公司或整個台灣的能源結構的成本你應該算出來讓我們知道2000億補了可能"},{"start":20151.192,"end":20177.755,"text":"你承諾兩年不漲電價那原理是什麼?原因是什麼?我覺得你要提出報告可以嗎?我認為我努力然後得到的這個結果會讓這個電價審議委員讓他來判斷不漲價部長那你有沒有辦法提出這個試算報告?提出財務規劃?要不然你怎麼讓我們同意?我要怎麼同意你這兩件事情撥補過去?我們可以來努力來做這個這部分跟委員報告好部長謝謝謝謝"},{"start":20186.844,"end":20198.453,"text":"請業委員之委員質詢麻煩請經濟部長請郭部長"},{"start":20207.023,"end":20226.448,"text":"呃部長好就是一樣您的一番話造成大家在立法院討厭一整天啊所以代表說你不能夠隨便亂講話嘛對吧那按照你的計畫你的講法是講說你是要鼓勵企業還是政府要在海外設電廠是用哪一個方式按照你的構想"},{"start":20227.779,"end":20255.271,"text":"我們是鼓勵企業啦鼓勵企業對所以你是用鼓勵企業的方式然後在海外設電廠嘛那你有提到說會請IIT的那個人幫忙嗎對吧因為這個我跟委員報告是這個呃呂宋這個經濟狼帶的這個計畫是美國日本我都知道你你要針對我的問題回答就好因為今天報紙都寫得很清楚了你有找IIT幫忙嘛對吧不是"},{"start":20255.848,"end":20259.21,"text":"所以基本上我認為你說你是草率發言我覺得你是改口啦實際上你是有這個計畫啦"},{"start":20285.425,"end":20303.111,"text":"因為按照報紙的說法你的計畫非常完整啊第一個你有原因嘛 對不對就是說新加坡到歐洲4800里都可以為什麼我們跟呂宋寶台差300里不可以嗎第二個就是我們可以在海外買到比台灣更便宜的電你也講了嘛"},{"start":20304.071,"end":20327.146,"text":"再就是你鼓勵企業所以這個完全就是你的構想但可能是不是話講太快了受到某種壓力所以忽然間又改口說這是我的草率發言我不相信一個經濟部長這麼大的官每天都在草率發言之前一下說要核電一下又不要然後現在又說要在海外設電廠然後又說不要我個人不太相信部長你是受到什麼壓力"},{"start":20328.971,"end":20350.854,"text":"報告委員就受到各位的這個指教你提出所以你就改口了喔哇所以你現在不做這個事喔我會這麼講就是說我確實我也反省沒有大家只是想知道細節大家只是想知道細節你有提到就是說2030年以前要達到所謂的淨零嘛"},{"start":20351.334,"end":20352.794,"text":"不是 報告委員 是這樣子我們現在不管做任何一個電廠都要6年"},{"start":20377.125,"end":20382.107,"text":"2030年提到這個目標的原因是因為你說你要在海外設電廠報紙不能夠代表我請問一下你這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的"},{"start":20400.844,"end":20406.981,"text":"你這個概念就是到海外設電廠而且你還研究了啊電也比較便宜啊電纜也沒問題這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的"},{"start":20408.308,"end":20436.923,"text":"其實我這個發想啊 孕育在我腦海裡面 多久了就是從這個美國他們4月份以後 4月份就發想了齁沒有 我大概在7月8月的時候 7月8月忽然間有這個構想也不是有這個構想嘛 這個是值得我這個研究部長 我的問題都這麼簡單 你不要把簡單的話講複雜好不好這樣我也害怕你跟你部內的人溝通欸 都簡單的問題都講那麼複雜你是4月看到美國嘛 7、8月開始發想嘛 今天把它講出來嘛"},{"start":20437.583,"end":20466.416,"text":"有一個雲豹企業6月17號就宣布要在菲律賓蓋那個光電廠那你有沒有受到雲豹的啟發沒有你知道雲豹這個事嗎剛剛才知道剛剛才知道哇那部長你講你知道雲豹今天股價盤中一度漲一趴欸所以你完全我報告委員齁所以你完全不是受到雲豹的啟發雲豹可能他有沒有經過我們投審會同意我不知道我回去要追這個條你要追這個條他沒有經過我投審會同意"},{"start":20467.716,"end":20491.994,"text":"對我們會對他產就就應該怎麼處理就怎麼處理他會怎麼處理啊我不知道我大概我們投審會是有個規範反正就是你不是因為雲報的關係啊扯這夠講完全都沒有啦那你瞭解菲律賓現在台灣有在那邊設電廠多少嗎這個跟菲律賓的電廠是完全沒有關係的事情不是啦我台氣因為你是鼓勵台灣企業去那邊設電廠嗎沒有沒有沒有那目前有沒有企業在那邊設電廠有沒有"},{"start":20493.544,"end":20510.83,"text":"目前應該是沒有沒有嘛就是萬一有的話結果你不去跟他買你還鼓勵人家去設再去跟他買也很奇怪嘛報告委員對基本上這樣子啦會在那邊設電廠也不會是台灣的廠商那你鼓勵外商去設喔那個是外國的廠商他們會去設啦"},{"start":20512.31,"end":20532.191,"text":"你不是鼓勵台灣的企業區那邊設什麼?我們去那邊大概就是光電阿就是我們自己比較熟悉的光電或是風電嘛但是電廠不一樣那你是鼓勵我們企業區那邊設什麼?設光電阿或是風電阿我的想法是這樣就是我們比較有能耐的那現在台灣有多少企業在那邊有光電跟風電?多少?"},{"start":20536.149,"end":20541.516,"text":"我在講嘛,我已經講過了,光電、風電跟地熱有多少?台灣企業在那邊做這個業務有多少?"},{"start":20543.581,"end":20566.269,"text":"我不清楚啊我不清楚你都不調查一下喔你不調查一下你就直接把這個構想講出來喔最後部長所以我跟你請教一下喔你有提到就是說要把高碳排氣液移到海外去啊說要乾坤大挪移這個是太天才了我跟你講我跟你講一個解決用電需求的方法你就把那個用電比較大的氣液把它趕到海外就好我們台灣就不會缺電了"},{"start":20568.432,"end":20578.305,"text":"怎麼會用這種方式來解決我們全世界都是在招商只有我們趕企業只是因為他碳排比較多那你要解決用電就把用電大戶趕走嗎"},{"start":20579.906,"end":20581.408,"text":"你講說要高碳牌企業移到海外"},{"start":20599.861,"end":20625.037,"text":"高碳排移到海外讓他在那個地方有競爭力阿那台灣的就業機會就少啦台灣的投資就少啦開玩笑我們台灣現在半導體跟AI的產業一直要進來阿這是高質化的這個產業對台灣的競爭力是提升的台灣的半導體產業進來不是因為被這些高碳排企業卡住嗎這兩回事是沒有錯是兩回事但是我們把這些產業"},{"start":20627.779,"end":20629.2,"text":"這個沒有競爭力其實很多是因為經濟規模的問題"},{"start":20651.474,"end":20672.001,"text":"因為很多是上下游之間的logistic問題所以這個cost的問題我是建議說讓你到國外去可以大帶小的帶到國外去具有競爭力這個對他來講是好處的啦留在台灣你的競爭力是減低的相當的抽象因為我時間到了就先這樣謝謝"},{"start":20681.873,"end":20682.934,"text":"請翁小玲委員質詢請郭部長"},{"start":20704.87,"end":20732.804,"text":"委員好是部長也辛苦了那麼這個大家今天其實都非常關心台灣的電力能源配比的問題但是呢看起來這個部長您現在還是有很多的想法那麼同時呢這個您的想法可能能夠想可能跟民進黨政府的這個想法也不盡相同那麼所以呢對於這個電力的能源配比怎麼樣才是個最好的最適的規模我在想這個未來可能還有很多的要"},{"start":20733.444,"end":20733.584,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":20754.876,"end":20764.602,"text":"其實在國外的這個MIT的教授他其實就做了一個各類發電方式的溫室氣體排放量的比較可以知道其實"},{"start":20766.59,"end":20770.153,"text":"用燃煤的溫室氣體的排放量是遠高於核能差不多多8倍那即便是像天然氣 對不起煤炭的碳排量是核能的68倍天然氣是核能的40倍那其他的像是光電等等的它同樣也是核能核電的大概2到4倍所以就溫室氣體排放量的這個角度來看"},{"start":20796.294,"end":20809.7,"text":"這個核電基本上還是最好的選擇雖然說民進黨政府基本上這個一直不願意去承認面對這個事實但我想請教部長是您知不知道在9月30號英國關閉了最後一座燃煤發電廠這個新聞您知道嗎"},{"start":20813.917,"end":20817.899,"text":"這個我知道那麼英國他們在2015年的時候他們的當時保守黨政府就已經確立了2025年之前要關閉高碳排的燃煤發電廠可是在此同時我們看民進黨政府當時做了什麼決定當時他們修法希望能夠在2025年台灣要進入非核家園當時就修了電業法"},{"start":20837.569,"end":20840.712,"text":"還好後來因為我們公投修了電業法把2025年非核家園的這個相關的規定給修掉了所以到現在我們還可以繼續再討論核電廠是不是可以繼續研議的這個議題不過就是無論如何但是看起來現在民黨政府好像也不打算要將核電廠研議部長您在您任內有可能"},{"start":20866.252,"end":20889.241,"text":"可以做到希望能夠宣告核電廠營業的這個政策嗎我想經濟部的立場是這樣的所有的電我們都希望特別是綠電那您剛才講的這個部分我想我們有三個前提第一個就是說全民有共識全民當然有高度的共識然後第二個是它是安全的"},{"start":20890.031,"end":20898.354,"text":"第三個是核廢料可以處理的這三個前提如果都能夠達到我們可以繼續往下來討論這三個前提其實全台灣都有共識而且我們都有高度的這個核能科技方面的素養來接下來我們看下一頁這個我們知道其實現在美國歐美國家的科技業龍頭其實大家都已經紛紛的這個採取要使用核電而且甚至連這個買購買這個相關的電力能源契約都已經改採清楚的指示"},{"start":20919.98,"end":20940.849,"text":"要採購的就是核電我希望就是台灣的這個經濟部能夠知道這個事情那接下來我要講就是說其實台灣能源不足的問題我覺得這已經是個事實而在能源不足的情況之下其實變得是人民要去承受隨時隨地都可能會缺電會停電的這樣的一個問題可是我們來看看請問我先請問部長您知道我們停電每停一度電"},{"start":20948.292,"end":20968.541,"text":"人民可以得到多少的補償這個我不知道您不知道那你想想看您覺得我們這樣子這個停電這個兩個小時我們可以得到多少的賠償我是不是請台電的總經理跟您報告趕快吧報告委員停電一個小時大概幾個"},{"start":20972.683,"end":20981.781,"text":"你也不清楚我告訴大家這停電一天一天24小時之內每一度電只賠1.33元"},{"start":20984.464,"end":21008.217,"text":"我告訴大家我們現在台電所訂定的這個消費性用電服務契約裡面的規定是非常非常不合理這還是只是類似補償的概念喔因為我這段時間裡面我沒有用到電所以我的電費是扣除可是讓人有沒有想到我們停電所造成的人民的財產的損失甚至有些可能還會影響到他的身體健康帶呼吸器的人他沒有電的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":21009.939,"end":21027.276,"text":"這個問題是非常嚴重的但我要講的就是消費性用電服務契約裡面規定極不合理而且大家知道如果說是因為台電的用電不足或者說自己故障等等這些原因也是賠償的補償的一點點的錢"},{"start":21030.038,"end":21043.519,"text":"這是極不合理變成說錯誤的能源政策所造成的缺點必須要全民來負擔那本期在這邊要給你們一個提示當然我們來看看德國你看德國是如何能夠真的走入變成是非核家園"},{"start":21044.932,"end":21047.613,"text":"他能夠保證全國不停電至少不大規模的停電如果停電的話怎麼辦德國的這個相關規定地壓供電電網連接使用辦法裡面規定如果說因為電力公司故意或重大過測行為造成用電戶的受損害不是只有補償電費而已喔還包含要賠償相關損害費用的還要負損害賠償責任"},{"start":21069.537,"end":21078.125,"text":"如果不是基於故意或重大過失 造成用電貨的財產損失他的賠償責任總而是定額賠償 每戶最高可以請求5000歐元的賠償5000歐元是什麼概念 就可以賠償17萬5000塊台幣這是非常高的 所以人家德國的電力公司有辦法做到這個程度 可是台電有辦法嗎"},{"start":21094.762,"end":21118.461,"text":"我希望台電要研議相關的這個契約如何的修正改正能夠符合人民的期待我們不要平白無故的因為政府錯誤的能源政策然後造成我們停電然後停電之後的所有的這個生命財產損失都要由我們人民自己去負責這是極不負責任的一個政策希望這個部長還有台電要重新研議謝謝"},{"start":21126.841,"end":21136.047,"text":"請明雪庭委員質詢謝謝主席 國部長有請請國部長"},{"start":21145.39,"end":21163.783,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了我先在這邊讚美你一下之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題你答應說本席要來這個現場會堪你也在非會期的時候說到做到這我先讚美你一下你有說到做到第二個其實我跟大部分在黨委員不見得一樣其實我有的時候蠻欣賞部長心直口快的個性"},{"start":21164.443,"end":21191.099,"text":"有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎"},{"start":21192.316,"end":21218.056,"text":"因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔你這個金句蓮發言真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點"},{"start":21220.044,"end":21245.889,"text":"所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題"},{"start":21247.409,"end":21275.177,"text":"所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫沒有沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準"},{"start":21275.757,"end":21301.562,"text":"我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟瞭解"},{"start":21302.602,"end":21318.231,"text":"這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子的一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況"},{"start":21319.372,"end":21337.715,"text":"比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎"},{"start":21339.276,"end":21341.657,"text":"這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任"},{"start":21359.061,"end":21376.155,"text":"阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我的意思是說有沒有一個有沒有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣主張的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫"},{"start":21377.096,"end":21405.147,"text":"阿是我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權阿也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本阿"},{"start":21405.826,"end":21425.921,"text":"這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看譬如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套,比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?"},{"start":21427.322,"end":21451.658,"text":"我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣"},{"start":21452.378,"end":21477.925,"text":"鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講的第二個提醒嘛對不對 內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過 對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們"},{"start":21480.546,"end":21480.666,"text":"請突掀機委員質詢"},{"start":21520.268,"end":21522.289,"text":"那14號初期酒會你有說跟菲律賓購買那個菲律賓綠店的問題嗎"},{"start":21544.54,"end":21566.228,"text":"那剛好我們說剛好這雲報能源在今年6月17也發布新聞稿說要插旗菲律賓做太陽能產業那我想請問一下那是經濟部先有這個計畫來向菲律賓購買綠能還是看到雲報能源在菲律賓插旗之後我們經濟部才有這個計畫向菲律賓購買綠電"},{"start":21568.449,"end":21595.007,"text":"報告委員這兩件事情對我來講都不是我能夠了解的首先這個雲豹他去菲律賓我完全不知道那我必須回去以後因為他是台灣的企業他到菲律賓去投資如果金額太高我們投審是一定要核准他才可能出去這部分我也可能要這個後面要了解一下那您剛剛講說我去那邊在菲律賓這個買綠電的這件事情"},{"start":21598.51,"end":21619.352,"text":"這個事情我還是講在跟委員報告這個只是我的一個構想然後我們在過去在討論全球能源的這個在民主同盟的這個互相支援的情況之下那麼剛好菲律賓他們跟美國跟日本有一個旅送經濟走廊的一個合作計畫"},{"start":21620.453,"end":21638.864,"text":"那我就在想說這個有沒有機會台灣的廠商去那個地方參加他們的這個計畫那如果可以參加他們的計畫那麼我也就去請教了我們有沒有辦法有那個基建的這個參加他們的基建基礎建設計畫"},{"start":21640.625,"end":21667.967,"text":"所以照部長這樣講那看起來是雲報非常有遠見高瞻遠矚在經濟部要做宣布之前他就已經在6月17號先去那個先發布新聞稿在菲律賓做這個太陽能產業所以基本上他是在經濟部之前根本不知道經濟部要做只是他先去剛好不謀而合而合然後經濟部又宣布說要去菲律賓"},{"start":21668.507,"end":21669.508,"text":"我們目前不可能買雲豹的綠能"},{"start":21679.628,"end":21686.374,"text":"因為你說是他們要我這樣講表示其實針對這件事情你是深思熟慮然後才說要去菲律賓買這個綠能對不對"},{"start":21705.219,"end":21715.832,"text":"我不太習慣就是說大家認為我這樣是草率發言所以我還是認為說回想一下我確實"},{"start":21717.557,"end":21721.499,"text":"因為大家都認為說我沒有一個行動計畫沒有一個上位計畫然後我就要講做這件事情就是草率發言"},{"start":21742.968,"end":21762.012,"text":"這別人給我的定位是這個樣子不過說實在話因為講到雲暴能源這部分的問題剛好這個不謀而合對很多民眾覺得真的是太巧合難免給外界有太多遐想的空間有太多的疑慮那針對桃園這個8個月來今年8個月來請問部長知道這8個月來桃園跳電多少次嗎"},{"start":21773.493,"end":21801.961,"text":"我手上沒有這個詳細資料好那總經理知道了我們有請同仁統計啦但是我們也知道就是說數字上並沒有比去年要來的好好那我跟部長這邊說明一下據我們的資料顯示這1到8月份桃園就跳電247次也就是說平均一天要跳電一次以上而且昨天也大跳電"},{"start":21802.901,"end":21819.594,"text":"中立平政一個大停電2700多戶受影響那針對這部分那個部長你也是我們基層企業出身那你想想看這種常常跳電停電對企業影響多大而且很多都是民生用電會不會太過於頻繁"},{"start":21823.794,"end":21848.851,"text":"這部分我們會深入的去研究為什麼會如這個委員所指教的這部分但是這個它有一個共同的我們過去有一個研究就是說當人口增加然後用電增加的地區是比較容易這個跳天部長剛好你有講因為在總諮詢的時候你也是這樣子回答其實據我們了解你看一下我們的"},{"start":21850.311,"end":21877.908,"text":"數據顯示台電主要停跳電事故的原因其實你看一下其實最大的原因還是台電自己的設備故障你看他跳電200多次有111次都是台電自己的設備所以其實並不是台電常常回復外力所致看起來都是台電自己內部設備故障的問題所以針對這部分我記得部長你有回復說在明年年"},{"start":21878.789,"end":21906.814,"text":"就是中旬以前我們尤其我們桃園沿海地方這電網你要全部來改善來更新對不對是跟委員報告因為你也知道這個電網的那個數量尤其是配電最底層接到用戶這邊的明年中旬以前有沒有辦法去改善我們持續在持續在改善尤其這一些紅區民眾比較關心我希望說那個部長要記得明年中旬以前來改善然後針對這個"},{"start":21908.214,"end":21931.225,"text":"部長有講針對桃園簽入人口用電增加的問題造成這個停跳電的問題當然我們看一下數據顯示桃園市現在人口是增加最多沒有錯而且他是目前人口成長率最高的一個縣市所以部長說人口增加用電增加造成他停跳電可是我們再看下一個數據從109年到113年"},{"start":21935.807,"end":21950.832,"text":"這麼多年來其實你看喔我們人口雖然增加可是台電給我們的用電並沒有增加也就是說雖然人口增加可是用電並沒有增加然後還是造成停跳電變成跟部長的說法好像不太一樣"},{"start":21953.851,"end":21972.723,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們的那個城市那個都市一直在成長某些地區有人人口增加但是某些地區事實上是部分是降低的所以我的整個電網事實上針對新增加的區域我還是要持續再擴建所以是總量是這樣看對所以你看這個數據其實你看我們112年用電還比111年112年比111年110年少而且我們今年1到8月的"},{"start":21981.628,"end":21995.999,"text":"比同期的用電也沒有增加可是我不知道為什麼跳電增加那麼多後來我們針對台電的統計在2023年我們北部的用電量是931億度但是我們北部的發電量"},{"start":21996.9,"end":22013.197,"text":"只有750億度也就是說我們北部其實短缺200億度所以經過我們了解就是因為南電北送才造成線路的損耗而且我們這個電力的損耗損耗6.41度相當我們人民就損失了23億元的電費"},{"start":22018.943,"end":22044.165,"text":"跟委員報告桃園地區因為大部分都是屬於高壓用戶就是工廠蠻多的這些工廠在去年跟前年大概是因為景氣比較不好所以它用電下降大概是這個因素造成所以我要跟部長總經理來提醒一下目前看起來真的就是我們北部的電就是不夠用所以你南電北送你造成很大的損耗而且你這個"},{"start":22045.826,"end":22046.346,"text":"請何信春委員質詢"},{"start":22078.302,"end":22078.543,"text":"謝謝張維﹖我們請郭部長"},{"start":22089.488,"end":22115.683,"text":"委員好部長好這個延續剛剛這個突圍言我是支持要區域發電所以我們這個整體的電網的一個更新還有整個電網的重新規劃設計這是一定要走的方向那第二個因為我們現在除了這個電網的部分還有我們的電力夠不夠的部分都有很多民眾的質疑那我想我們是有信心的"},{"start":22116.644,"end":22119.766,"text":"臺灣大部分九成以上都是中小企業傳統工業那傳統工業的"},{"start":22146.386,"end":22146.406,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":22164.735,"end":22164.755,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":22183.254,"end":22208.529,"text":"他們也希望能夠有一個綠能的一個用電那但是呢我不知道部長知不知道在所謂的特定工廠不管是已經申請了或是正在申請中的現在數萬家的這些特定工廠及未來的特定工廠那他們呢能不能做所謂的屋頂上的一個綠能發電光電發電現在我們的政策推動到哪裡了"},{"start":22209.894,"end":22224.685,"text":"報告委員就我所了解的部分這個工廠的屋頂設置太陽能光電這是會持續的會持續我知道啊我現在就是要問你啊第一個在工業區裡面是你好掌握的也好推動的那我知道成效不錯"},{"start":22226.847,"end":22247.657,"text":"現在正在進行當中正在申請特定工廠的或者是已經申請到特定工廠的那這些相對規模小相對是在整個產業鏈裡面的中下游的加工廠商他們面臨到的是什麼建築物的問題我們現在的建築物到底允不允許讓他們在他們的屋頂上面蓋光電面板"},{"start":22248.77,"end":22264.25,"text":"這個要看我這個建築的結構工程師就是說我沒有辦法判斷他是不是能夠承載那個太陽能電所以之前我們曾經要求過經濟部要第一個什麼如果他的耐震補強結構是OK的"},{"start":22266.733,"end":22289.213,"text":"我們應該用什麼方式來輔導要求他們做所謂屋頂上的報告委員我想這個整體在我們的深度節能的這個方案裡面應該會綜合的考量來幫助中小微企業能夠節能跟減碳我相信署長是不是比較知道我現在在問的這個政策方向第一個就是特定工廠回答你"},{"start":22289.913,"end":22291.394,"text":"正在申請中的數萬家我們未來"},{"start":22320.173,"end":22341.416,"text":"程序才能夠去符合你們的要求對這就跟委員報告說因為你的這個太陽能上去之後你的建物本身要能夠耐受20年以上那我就問你啦如果如果啦齁在你們認為說耐震補強是結構是安全的情況之下他就可以架設這個就用技師來做簽證是"},{"start":22342.97,"end":22369.779,"text":"那目前我們現在有總共全台灣有多少家你知道嗎我這邊還沒有相關的統計資料我現在就是要拜託你啦一定要協助的阿是不是那現在他們實務面上碰到最大的問題是什麼就是剛剛部長跟署長你講的阿這個建築物本身的耐震結構安全的問題那"},{"start":22371.22,"end":22371.3,"text":"我們會這樣做"},{"start":22397.279,"end":22413.754,"text":"不然我現在幫你擔心著很多的這個中小企業微型企業他依循的這個政府的這個法令來申請這個特定工廠那我也提出改善計畫但是能不能做得到那最後中央地方對於這個整個執法規的一個認知"},{"start":22416.596,"end":22442.472,"text":"有沒有一致性我現在是先跟部長您說是各地方政府的認定是沒有一致性這個你可以問一下經濟部總辦我們中小微這個署大概會來我們的中企署會來協助這些中小微的公司取得這樣的一個協助我希望第一個會後給我這個加速現在的一個基本的資料已經有的加速跟"},{"start":22444.02,"end":22453.697,"text":"會後再給我好不好第二個我們希望設定一個時程表那能夠呢有效率的推進跟協助可以嗎可以好謝謝"},{"start":22462.303,"end":22468.645,"text":"請馬文君委員不在﹖請廖先祥委員不在﹖請顏寬恒委員不在﹖請林思敏委員不在﹖請羅明才委員不在﹖請徐富奎委員質詢"},{"start":22491.078,"end":22494.103,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們郭部長請郭部長委員好部長午安午安"},{"start":22503.701,"end":22531.082,"text":"本席有幾次跟部長在一起討論一些事情的時候聽到部長談到我們整個台灣的發展那個眼睛都發亮所以我想部長很多的想法都是超前部署的觀念但是在這邊我們也要替屏東縣來請命部長是屏東人所以對屏東的發展也有一份責任要來盡是部長支持這樣的論調嗎支持"},{"start":22532.283,"end":22552.923,"text":"部長我想我們9月10號我們跟屏東縣政府舉辦了一個南台灣的科技論壇有提到一個所謂的南高屏大矽谷的一個計畫我想要發展這個所謂的大矽谷計畫必須要有土地要解決水跟電的問題請教部長目前屏東的所謂的一個產業園區的一個狀況部長有掌握嗎有"},{"start":22558.988,"end":22578.347,"text":"我有在了解這個但是就本席的了解目前我們的產業園區的出租率非常的高那土地可能面對未來即使像有一些很著名的科技大廠要來的時候可能我們面臨無地可用的一個困境那針對這個部分因為我們現在"},{"start":22579.208,"end":22581.61,"text":"報告委員我想這個我們在院裡面討論的時候我們有跟國科會有跟國發會共同在討論但是您剛才所說的這個南州崁嶺這一個好像"},{"start":22606.266,"end":22623.718,"text":"不是我們現在目前在討論的部分部長本期的意思是說因為現在我們平北包含我們有科學園區有二代交通促進區有農科未來一定都會面臨飽和飽和之後我們即使未來需要再招商的時候我們有沒有什麼其他的副案"},{"start":22624.771,"end":22624.911,"text":"主席"},{"start":22639.665,"end":22656.375,"text":"可能這些作業人員都要為國融或是為別的官司來所以溝通是優先重要我個人的建議這是要經濟來建設這溝通的問題我們都一定會努力來改善但是問題這也要同步變形你同時也要面對土地水跟電的問題都要一併來操心複數是謝謝委員我們這個水跟電的部分我們都在檢討"},{"start":22667.682,"end":22671.165,"text":"這部份 水利署現在這個部份我是不是請水利署跟你報告一下整個案子我們目前已經送到行政院還在審 在國發會還在審查 對"},{"start":22697.679,"end":22714.25,"text":"那因為本席知道這個到時候我們的縣政府的財力負擔也相當的重,這部長能不能來幫忙啊?這個,對啊,我們可以將政府當中的道具是什麼?我應該是會幫忙啦,因為我小時候住這裡"},{"start":22719.615,"end":22733.948,"text":"部長另外就是針對我們的這個一個綠能的一個政策我想今天有很多的立委有提出這樣一個質疑那針對我們目前本席有發現的一個問題我們針對所謂一個不利耕地的一個綠能開發"},{"start":22735.649,"end":22739.791,"text":"現在報告委員我們這部分跟農業部還有跟法務部大概我們三個部門大概有充分的這個溝通跟了解未來"},{"start":22759.517,"end":22760.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22790.218,"end":22801.144,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分像你說的如果沒有一個改靈格的規範可能大家都會做到每個人做不一樣的方式所以這部分我們會加速來把這個規範把它做好讓大家都可以按照這個規範來遵行"},{"start":22813.952,"end":22829.873,"text":"部長最後本席還是針對我們颱風期間您到屏東來看災的時候本席提出來針對屏東的抽水站老舊的一個問題還有我們養殖專區這個電纜全面地下化的問題希望我們盡快提出一個對策"},{"start":22831.505,"end":22848.219,"text":"是,這個抽水站應該是可以如期進行那這個地下化的部分我們必須要再評估因為那個地下化萬一水進去的時候再維修更慘所以這個要怎麼做比較好我相信台電、我們內部都有在檢討,靠年底會向委員報告"},{"start":22854.421,"end":22854.441,"text":"部長"},{"start":22879.07,"end":22881.652,"text":"請王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在 請林德福 林德福"},{"start":22898.693,"end":22917.741,"text":"臨德府委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在請黃珊珊黃珊珊黃珊珊委員不在請麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍委員不在請傅坤祺傅坤祺傅坤祺委員不在請徐信英委員諮詢"},{"start":22926.697,"end":22928.258,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請經濟部長"},{"start":22937.213,"end":22961.474,"text":"委員好部長好部長您辛苦了今天呢會有那麼多委員接力的來質詢您應該跟您近期的發言有關是對那本席在這邊呢質詢時間給我的時間不長但是本席有幾個點要特別的跟部長來提出質詢首先第一個"},{"start":22962.435,"end":22972.998,"text":"部長您對有發言對於未來兩年電價應該不至於調漲的說法本席覺得您過於自信您個人覺得呢我想我對自己一向是很有自信所以這個你也承認你過於自信本席在這邊就教部長"},{"start":22989.562,"end":23011.833,"text":"到今年8月,您知道台電的發電成本每度是多少錢?中和的嗎?對,平均發電成本到今年8月,現在10月是多少?報告委員,我們的發電成本大概接近4塊錢,3塊9多了"},{"start":23017.169,"end":23044.946,"text":"本席手上拿到的資料購電我們兩個費用一個是發電還有其他的產銷光發電的部分是3.06好對這個包含發電還有你說購電那平均嘛平均我們每一度電你們的成本"},{"start":23046.423,"end":23075.324,"text":"三塊多嘛是那在去年去年有全國電力資源供需報告有提到2025年再生能源發電的比重會達到15%那到2026年11月整個再生能源的比重達到20%那未來將大力擴展的太陽能發電成本是多少太陽能發電成本"},{"start":23076.411,"end":23082.515,"text":"平均是多少目前我們這邊的數字是大概4.88元對嘛 4.88嘛那風力發電呢"},{"start":23086.875,"end":23104.675,"text":"風力發電因為有離岸的那個部分有前高後低所以稍微高了6塊多對嘛6塊所以部長您這個大企業家你聽我們現在平均3塊多4塊可是我們未來要大力增加的我們的發電來源"},{"start":23106.937,"end":23124.657,"text":"他的成本都比現在的多出這麼多好那有可能你因為過很有自信嘛所以我本心也覺得你有可能不會漲電價但是呢你可能就是撥補你撥補的整個的這個費用還不是全民承擔"},{"start":23128.301,"end":23142.177,"text":"所以這一塊本席覺得您真的過於自信還有再來更重要的是我相信很多委員都在質疑啊我們目前政府的能源政策真的要非常審慎的評估啊"},{"start":23142.998,"end":23171.125,"text":"因為現在的用電尤其我們希望綠電嘛那本席之前也有特別提出你綠電的情況會未來極有可能你日間OK你夜間用電需求越來越高會出現夜間缺電的情況那你夜間缺電的情況下你就變成為了要有穩定所以你可能就會用這個火力發電"},{"start":23172.165,"end":23173.247,"text":"產業用電的成長"},{"start":23187.987,"end":23211.333,"text":"不斷的成長你用供電的穩定性不夠再者產業用電的成長我在這裡要給部長部長您是科技業的這個大老闆出身您應該瞭解我們現在民進黨政府提到是AI的這個行政院團隊未來在台灣很多地方"},{"start":23212.333,"end":23224.723,"text":"非常多的科技產業我看到我們不管南部、中部、北部甚至本席的新竹我們有大矽谷計畫我們整個科技不斷的成長未來的用電絕對成長那更重要的有一個很重要的數字"},{"start":23229.286,"end":23250.625,"text":"你AI進入AI時代之後有沒有評估過AI時代需要用電量會是我們現況的幾倍先不含這麼多科技產業的大力的投入不好意思主席再給我一兩分鐘這個非常非常重要你們有沒有評估過進入AI我們的用電量是幾倍"},{"start":23252.079,"end":23278.508,"text":"你們提得出這個數字嗎?好 請說 簡單因為最近這一段時間整個AI蓬勃發展所以我們台電在估計你就直接告訴我嘛未來進入AI時代你的評估我們的用電量跟現在是幾倍成長我們是沒有到幾倍這麼多啦就是我們整體的台灣的用電量整體台灣的用電量來算那本來是我們原來預估的成長是1.8%左右那我們現在規劃將近到"},{"start":23280.269,"end":23280.63,"text":"本席說明第一個"},{"start":23295.586,"end":23312.224,"text":"你伺服器現在的伺服器跟AI的伺服器差別就增加1.6倍這個1.6倍那就算了現在大家都知道我就以AI它最大的特性就是不斷的耗電我在這裡也已經質詢過部長"},{"start":23313.846,"end":23336.347,"text":"那AI現在大家對AI不是那麼了解但是ChatGPD大家很清楚各位我們用Google我們同樣一個問題去詢問Google用Google查詢跟用ChatGPD這個有數據這是國際能源署的估算就一個小小的詢問"},{"start":23337.868,"end":23364.445,"text":"差了10倍他的用電量是10倍未來未來你看有多少人一天國人有多少人他google轉成用CHAT GPT還有所有的產業科技產業甚至連我們公家機關很多都在講未來怎麼用AI你們不可以忽視AI他最大的特性就是用電量非常非常大"},{"start":23365.285,"end":23392.85,"text":"所以本席非常的憂心能源政策絕對不是像部長還有我們台電董事長說的絕對不是這樣報告委員我們都知道你們都知道新的IDC的伺服器140kW一個機櫃一個機櫃價值1億一個機櫃價值1億所以這個量的成長我們也都想過以這樣貴的一個那個IDC的一個機櫃它的成長量初期是不會大但是中間"},{"start":23393.83,"end":23413.937,"text":"當然啊科技一直進步就像我們過去很多東西很貴很快他就馬上的這個會減等於說整個價格就盪下來未來就是AI的時代我沒有準備你們目前看不到你們的準備啊你們現在的用電"},{"start":23415.257,"end":23440.706,"text":"整個是不夠的我們的能源政策如果這樣繼續下去你的綠能也不夠那你綠能不夠你就是用火力發電不管燃煤燃氣造成很大的污染所以這個是台灣的隱憂所以你們不要用口號治國也千萬不要等於是這個自欺欺人我們民眾都不相信啊"},{"start":23442.572,"end":23458.909,"text":"報告委員我想您所指教的部分我們都會深刻的這個來檢討那麼我是因為你有你知道嘛我從業界來對本身你也科技業嘛我們會loading的去check"},{"start":23459.329,"end":23459.629,"text":"好,OK"},{"start":23491.557,"end":23517.002,"text":"當即發言的委員除了不在場外其他的均已發言完畢我們詢答結束有04名委員陳冠廷委員王宏威委員傅坤祺委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢跟未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程已經處理完畢大家辛苦了現在散會"},{"start":23525.6,"end":23529.841,"text":"我先講去來去有意義"},{"start":23583.669,"end":23583.861,"text":"本集完"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:47 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發展．為接軌國際．在營造雙語教育環境上．持續擴增學校布定英語課採全英文授課．並透過建置校園雙語學習環境．充實英語學習資源．使學生在課外時間．仍有大量機會進行英語的溝通．英語的一個學習．希望能夠強化新世代．"},{"start":2562.992,"end":2585.482,"text":"年輕世代能夠具備以國際接軌的一個基本能力在國際教育方面引進除了繼續加強國際學術交流引進國際名校在臺設立分校鼓勵高中子以國際高中結盟線上學習分享亦可結合NGO組織選送高中生出國交換一年增進國際競爭力與移動力"},{"start":2588.464,"end":2601.01,"text":"此外,配合國家重點領域高階人才培育如量子科技、精準醫療海洋科技等等以及文化社經不利學生擴大提供留學獎助名額"},{"start":2603.715,"end":2625.001,"text":"第8在安心校園方面為建構友善健康校園結合社區非營利組織學校家庭推動社會情緒學習促進性別地位實質平等並積極預防校園霸凌協助學生平衡短期心理不適至8月1日起高中實施"},{"start":2626.141,"end":2654.893,"text":"身心調適下並跨部會研議擴大推動年輕族群心理健康支持方案向下延伸到小學讓關懷身心健康從小做起此外啟動學生輔導法修法補助大專校院徵聘專業輔導人力支持學校提早達成輔導人員編制900比1的規劃以呼應學生輔導日益增加的需求"},{"start":2656.598,"end":2682.494,"text":"同時更積極打造以社區為焦點的堅韌安全防護網,強化學校與警政社區共同聯手,多層次的防護,增加校園危機處理之韌性。在中生教育方面,面對全球化競爭與中生學習稀釋,打造全民愛學習的一個台灣,推動跨世代親民共學,朝數位創新、全民學習永續發展方向,"},{"start":2683.427,"end":2705.448,"text":"前往邁進應用AI科技建構智慧服務終身學習倡議將國立社教機構轉型為創新學習的實習倡議成為區域大手西小手同遊的一個全民學習中心也更將事辦第三人生大學強化壯世代學習的一個機會在嚴明教育方面"},{"start":2708.154,"end":2726.064,"text":"在嚴明教育師資質量的一個精進嚴明嚴祝民族實驗教育發展嚴祝民族語言教育生根及培育嚴祝民族多元人才的具有基礎上精進嚴祝民族教育資源中心的功能從今年起大專校宴"},{"start":2727.165,"end":2754.304,"text":"原住民學生每達200人再增加補助一名專業人員提升研資中心的量能此外拓展中小學原住民文化學習倡議深化族群文化認同充滿自信的展現自我成為新一代的族群文化傳承與傳播者其次在體育運動方面2024巴黎奧運及巴林泡運分別獲得二金五銅三銀"},{"start":2755.748,"end":2763.538,"text":"二筒的加機為完善運動競技選手及專業人才的培育發展未來推出黃金計畫3.0及優秀運動選手輔導方案2.0升級措施面對國際"},{"start":2771.199,"end":2787.658,"text":"運動的一個發展潮流與人民健康福祉提升全民運動風氣推動開放校園運動場域並補助地方政府新建整建運動設施讓親子社區居民可以透過運動增加情感聯繫促進校園運動空間共享"},{"start":2790.673,"end":2812.006,"text":"總統就職後立刻啟動運動部的籌備作業辦理多場次的一個論壇聆聽各界的建言齊心協力推動成立全新的部會目前行政院已成立諮詢小組並積極研議運動部組織草案希望能夠完備籌備這個籌備"},{"start":2816.474,"end":2822.519,"text":"是以促成體育部的成立擴大規模推動體育運動相關政策另外在青年發展患命為契合社會的需求"},{"start":2830.449,"end":2842.316,"text":"請聽青年的需要,研議制定青年政策白皮書,支持青年就學、就業、創業、多元發展,持續推動U-START創新創業計畫,擴大職場體驗機會,更規劃青年白衣海外圓夢計畫,延續台灣CanHelp的一個價值觀念。"},{"start":2850.861,"end":2873.419,"text":"協助青年赴海外到國際組織會政府組織學習也投入或者投入海外志工服務的一個行動透過各國青年的交流讓更讓國際看見臺灣自由民主人權的價值讓青年的理想創造活力與韌性能夠成為國際鏈結的重要力量最後大宴審議113年度"},{"start":2875.541,"end":2901.169,"text":"本部主管預算所做凍結結議共11案．包括凍結本部各單位預算3600萬等合計4千等11案合計4910萬元．詳細報告經已依結議含重大願．懇請各位委員同意凍置預算．並持續給予本部支持以指教以上報告謝謝進行指正"},{"start":2904.393,"end":2925.663,"text":"請問各位委員,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?沒有議事錄確定。我們現在進行綜合詢答,每位初席委員質詢8分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘,列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘,"},{"start":2928.704,"end":2953.624,"text":"發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員吳佩奕質詢結束後進行解凍案及臨時提案處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":2962.132,"end":2962.152,"text":"鄭部長請"},{"start":2973.61,"end":2995.907,"text":"部長早,我想有關現在有高中在發暫時狀態7年服刑同意書那昨天我有看到部長有出來做說明不過呢在本期選區內還是很多的家長跟很多的民眾都有非常多的疑慮跟恐慌所以我想今天在這裡再就教部長一次讓您有機會更正式的來說明白我想在去年的2月傳出國防部要修這個權動法"},{"start":2997.068,"end":3026.474,"text":"那當時是要要求學校針對16歲以上的學生建置所謂的青年服勤資料但是要回傳國防部那所以呢當時這件事情引發了非常大的反彈那教育部那個時候為了要回應民眾的疑慮所以也發文說要停止回傳國防部的這個動作把人員編組這些資料留校來被查那所以我們以為風波就要平息了不過呢現在又傳出來說我們又在做這相關的調查了那所以我想"},{"start":3026.994,"end":3038.3,"text":"這一次是教育部用韓文的方式我們都有收到嘛各縣市的這個教育局來做一些統計跟造冊那部長您有說到說這個權動法是民國90年11月14號其實就公布了啦那但是為什麼在去年傳出修法之前其實高達23年的時間都沒有調查去年開始調查那去年調查鬧得沸沸揚揚人心惶惶的那現在我們在兩岸這麼緊張的時刻呢我們又要開始再來做這樣一個調查我想"},{"start":3056.71,"end":3074.407,"text":"第一個,不曉得這個調查這一次是教育部主動要做這件事還是國防部又有希望來做那我想這個在這個時間點我們做這樣調查而這個調查出來之後我們沒有看到有對學生有任何的培訓訓練的計畫那到底以後要做什麼也都不知道"},{"start":3074.767,"end":3097.127,"text":"我們就倉促一下做調查也難怪無非啊其實學校也反彈家長也反彈老師也覺得這很奇怪那我想前面才剛有我們的劉世芳部長說要有這個40萬民兵或者民力都好其實大家就已經很緊張那前有這個劉世芳部長現在後又有教育部那我想這個難怪大家會非常的緊張了那再者部長"},{"start":3099.269,"end":3121.026,"text":"您昨天又說到說其實這個沒有啦暫時狀態這個四個字是沒有的我們就是一個學校青年服勤計畫的同意喔那這個情務的範圍在什麼協助各地政府避難引導阿等等但是呢我們本席看到所有情務範圍內喔我們都不曾有任何相關的課程去給學生做這個訓練那您又說這個保證阿現在這個絕對沒有跟戰事無關但您能夠確保一定不會跟戰事無關嗎這是第二個問題喔那再來喔"},{"start":3128.632,"end":3148.397,"text":"我們又提到這部長又說到說全民國防啊現在大家都是要做全民國防嘛但是我們看到其實全民國防現在已經是不定的必修了那我想也納入了十二年國教的一個課綱那為什麼又要特別去調查哪一些人他願意來做這些後勤協助的工作以上我想部長是不是能夠重點是說明"},{"start":3149.958,"end":3160.347,"text":"謝謝委員關心也感謝委員這一個關心我們青年學子不然我們重點回答好不好就第一個我先請教一下這一次這個議員調查是國防部發起還是教育部主動的跟委員報告"},{"start":3165.431,"end":3167.572,"text":"這一次是國防部主動還是教育部?"},{"start":3190.336,"end":3201.64,"text":"教育部是根據去年這一個的公文然後這一個今年通知所以今年是教育部主動喊文的跟國防部沒有關係是無關的再來呢我想喔這個因為您說這個絕對不會跟戰事有關您能保證我們這一次的這個調查永遠都會跟戰事這件事情無關嗎"},{"start":3212.1,"end":3237.048,"text":"我沒有在講全民國防剛剛已經跟你提過全民國防現在是不定必修大家都要全民國防這青年的服務的範圍他主要就是在協助地方政府的避難引導部長我就請教您我們現在您說的這一些我們登記以後有意願的這些工作那我們有沒有給這些有意願的孩子有什麼樣的訓練計畫在裡面有嗎"},{"start":3239.569,"end":3243.393,"text":"現在有沒有我想就這是不是能夠詳細的請這個吳市長來部長我跟您說啦我來跟您說比較快其實現在是沒有的因為本席昨天問過許許多多的高中的校長目前是沒有的只有一個這個人才庫的被查的這種概念那我建議啦就是說"},{"start":3258.647,"end":3259.828,"text":"接下來我想回到今天我最重要的一個主題我想根據我們看到這個"},{"start":3285.624,"end":3285.644,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":3303.917,"end":3320.911,"text":"這個退場真的很可怕那根據審計部的報告也指出了截至今年4月為止已經停招停辦的15校當中有13校86.67%就是既職的學校那我們又看到世界二端的統策報考的人數只剩下6.9萬比同年我們大學學測少了12萬人"},{"start":3325.975,"end":3335.124,"text":"12萬人少了5萬多人所以我們也看到近5年來的高職學生的人數從108年37.9萬名學生到112年那也減少了7.5萬名學生來到了30.4萬而這個數字恐怕還會急劇的在惡化中那尤其我們看到現在私立高中其實高中值也呈現一種M形態的一個狀態"},{"start":3351.058,"end":3373.809,"text":"所以未來會不會迎接這個大規模的退場潮我想這是大家所擔憂的啦好那我們又看到私校工會也預估嘛他說認為說在未來的三年當中恐怕會有50到60所的私校高中只會退場喔那這個問題我們審計部也注意到了那教育部回覆審計部說我們的改善方案就是3加2類5專好"},{"start":3376.15,"end":3396.432,"text":"我們來談,如果說3加2類武專是我們這麼重要的一個解套的方案,那但是呢,我們看到這個,當然我聽說兩天前3加2改名了,現在改成新,類武專現在改名叫做新武專,新武專模式對不對,因為你們現在名稱很多啦,那這個新武專模式本來3加2,現在3加2加2,"},{"start":3398.234,"end":3402.055,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算解凍案11案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算解凍案11案"},{"start":3427.455,"end":3449.324,"text":"您弄得清楚嗎?這第一個,您弄得清楚很重要但家長跟學校跟老師弄不弄得清楚更重要本席一樣幫您在地方的試料了很多的家長、老師跟學校不知道,大部分人都不知道那我們來看這個表格上面是本席幫你整理出來因為今天時間真的很有限"},{"start":3451.445,"end":3467.406,"text":"我們看到第一個您回覆的審計部有說3加2是解決即職學校這個能夠讓他們生源回流的一個方案可是明明就還有一個3加4嘛看起來3加2是3加4的這個進化版那部長我請教您3加2好還是3加4好"},{"start":3469.042,"end":3495.231,"text":"跟委員報告他是各自有他的一個特色好 各自有他一個好處那我請教一下部長那誰 什麼學生要選3加2什麼學生要選3加43加2我的心目專主要就是希望高中高職的至高的學生不要再為了升學當然我想喔不要再為了升學組織配合組織很清楚就是說3加2的學生希望說他們到高3可以中10座啦那沒有升學壓力啦那但是呢"},{"start":3496.812,"end":3513.786,"text":"今天喔 強調這個能力本位然後直接免試就接軌這一個技術高中部長那如果三家這麼好三家四還要繼續留嗎?產西產西合作專班還要繼續留嗎?有一些學校他產業他過去當然有一些產業的產學合作建校合作的模式"},{"start":3514.206,"end":3535.803,"text":"不是嘛,部長,我想你這個3加4喔,剛剛我念了這麼一大堆喔,事實上都是產學專班底下的不同的方案啦齁,我建議您啦齁,您自己喔,我今天是沒有時間,我不想一個一個考你啦,我可以保證這題如果考你,你考60分不到啦。為什麼?因為本席昨天晚上要能了解這一些來詢問你的時候,我看了又看,真的是一團混亂。"},{"start":3537.304,"end":3537.744,"text":"委員是能夠讓我對3加2新五專"},{"start":3563.018,"end":3563.038,"text":"委員．"},{"start":3578.405,"end":3578.545,"text":"二、審查11"},{"start":3600.555,"end":3600.755,"text":"部長,我們不管3加2"},{"start":3624.97,"end":3628.815,"text":"產學專班3加4橋委會也有3加4我們都希望兩個第一個讓我們高職的學生能夠有更好的未來跟出路第二個讓我們技職學校的聲援能夠穩定那最後我想那個主席給我30秒就好我2點了30秒就好就是我們希望"},{"start":3644.013,"end":3651.937,"text":"我們希望教育部能夠比照過去的國教輔導團或者是學習歷程檔案說明是不是能夠來組織一個這個計職專案輔導團來做巡迴的說明讓教育部這麼好的政策可以讓我們全國的學校都知道好不好那部長您之後再回覆萬委員好不好最後這一點這可不可以來做這可以來做嗎可以喔那會後希望部長給我一個詳細的說明那我們就到這"},{"start":3672.386,"end":3673.406,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長"},{"start":3702.574,"end":3727.948,"text":"有請鄭部長部長好部長這兩天有高中的家長大家都很擔憂啊因為我們現在有發送這個所謂青年扶擒同意書啊那第一時間教育部講是說沒有這個事情昨天你又回答是說是全民國防人人有責啊我想請教到底有沒有"},{"start":3729.653,"end":3757.732,"text":"公文報告這一個公文確實是去年我還沒上之前就已經發布去年你還沒有上那說今年會調查是過去在這個20年來教育部大概就是授權各個學校全動法以後各個學校他自行編組是全動法嗎你的法源依據是全動法就是全民這個防衛全民防衛動員準備法是好那全民防衛動員準備法裡面有包含兩階段"},{"start":3759.153,"end":3776.592,"text":"那其中準備階段跟實施階段那我想請教一下你看一下全動法第二條裡面明擺寫是動員實施階段指戰事發生或發生或緊急危難總統發布緊急命令就要實施全國動員"},{"start":3778.274,"end":3796.869,"text":"所以換言之我們現在造冊就是如果說將來有一天戰事發生我們學子16歲的學子也要上戰場也要面對戰事發生只要戰事發生任何一個人都必須要面對是但我現在講的是說你現在造冊然後要去做相關的一個部分那不就是"},{"start":3798.69,"end":3820.309,"text":"學生基本上是在留在原社區自己的學校裡邊去做一些後勤一些慰問或者相關的一些照顧的一些協助的一些後勤工作你剛也講啦暫時發生的話沒有一個人可以避免那你怎麼有辦法說限定是說學生只留在學校呢?以我們的權動化的規範他就是只做後勤教育的學生"},{"start":3825.673,"end":3848.528,"text":"16歲以上學生造冊這個是去年2月的時候全動法的修法草案那時候國防部有講是說16歲以上學生動員造冊國防部說只用於非常時期那我想請教既然國防部講是說只用於非常時期那為什麼現在就是在平時我們沒有任何的一個狀況那為什麼現在在做動員跟造冊現在在做造冊"},{"start":3850.356,"end":3874.414,"text":"我想我們過去跟委員報告過去我們事實上就是由學校來自己做分組我可不可以再請教一下在權動法裡面教育部主管或說主要負責的工作是什麼我們就對這一個根據這個權動法我們就是協助地方政府的避難引導社區的關懷跟公共服務跟行政要不要再確認一下"},{"start":3875.563,"end":3904.751,"text":"教育部主要負責是什麼請吳市長來一句話全動法裡面明擺寫得非常清楚教育部主要負責是什麼一個是全民國防教育一個是這個學生青年服勤來部長你顯然沒有搞懂啊中央主管機關教育部負責什麼是精神動員準備方案啊你剛講的人力的部分內政部啊你剛講是說這個相關的物資的部分是經濟部啊"},{"start":3906.007,"end":3932.549,"text":"所以其實教育部你做的是精神動員可是你現在已經撈過界了然後還有去年權動法的草案預告要修正是要把精神動員兩個字改成教育動員所以意思就是說你要把學生如果說你要教育機關學子等等的要把它給放進去但到時候權動法有沒有修過沒有嘛所以你到目前為止此時此刻法條明文規定都還是精神動員啊"},{"start":3934.008,"end":3957.361,"text":"那結果你們現在已經去年預告大家一片嘩然已經覺得說奇怪怎麼教育部要這樣做是不是要把學生送戰場沒有到時候不敢碰選動法就沒有修法了結果沒有修法的情況下你們持續照走變成是法令沒有修過結果你們該你們要做的事情你們還是做不覺得很奇怪嗎再來我再請教部長"},{"start":3958.885,"end":3976.212,"text":"您是大家長啦所以說我覺得說這是為什麼我要確認你到底了不了解這件事情我請教什麼時候開始恢復照冊的誰下的命令其實不需要照冊真的不需要誰誰下的命令去做調查的"},{"start":3977.112,"end":3992.776,"text":"誰下的命令去做這個會期的因為暫時的時候確實包括救災啊關懷災民啊都確實需要人力上的協助那他可能會有替代藝能會有後備資源我現在在請教部長然後我現在在請教部長你很想篡位是不是還是"},{"start":3999.277,"end":4016.965,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我想在許多的程序部長我只是確認一下說您知不知道什麼時候在誰下的命令要去學生做造冊或是說您剛講的嘛現在教育部有發給所有各縣市的教育局要去做這個學生登記甚至你們也有回覆啊你們說未滿18歲我還要家長同意"},{"start":4020.58,"end":4039.738,"text":"所以現在回收率狀況怎麼樣有多少的學生簽下確實他是學特師本職務上他這一個所做的一個這一個委的學特師學生事務及特殊教育師是不是好來我們下一頁來部長看一下"},{"start":4045.703,"end":4069.354,"text":"2023年去年3月我剛一直提到因為國防部要修這個權動法權動法草案一出來之後全國嘩然而且可能是因為去年剛好要選舉了所以執政黨也許覺得說這個火壓不住喔所以就到3月的時候2月草案才公告3月的時候馬上就講教育部說高中以上憑止辦理建制"},{"start":4070.731,"end":4098.431,"text":"各地方政府轉資高級中等學校以上停止辦理全國防衛動員資訊整合系統建置學生青年服勤資料2023年就是112年的3月3日白紙黑字好那現在又重新開始啦風頭過了覺得說沒有人關注了選舉選完了賴清德當選了我要做再來做"},{"start":4099.505,"end":4109.769,"text":"所以我現在問阿2023年3月3號有一個命令說終止那誰開啟了再繼續建置學生服勤資料的命令誰下的指示"},{"start":4112.742,"end":4139.142,"text":"我說明我們停止的是系統上傳的這件事情你講建區啊停止辦理啊你沒有說回歸啊留校備查啊那我現在在問的是我現在是問的是說你什麼時候又重新要學校來去做調查大家我先看一下紅色這段前面是留校備查嘛所以確實是留校備查現在只有學校只有呈報人數給主管機關他也沒有主管機關也沒有名冊"},{"start":4140.706,"end":4169.746,"text":"所以嘛拉回來我現在在講部長看起來你是完全狀況外啊笑笑代表什麼部長我們只想問啊是不是之後戰場來之後教育部要把學生送戰場這肯定不會的肯定不會我也希望不會啊我也希望台海不要有任何的戰事啊但是現在教育部做的事情就讓所有的家長都擔心擔憂啊大家覺得匪夷所思啊"},{"start":4171.496,"end":4187.522,"text":"我想我們在這個還是來自一個社區的安全防護的一個韌性來看台灣的颱風跟這個地震多但是我們怎麼樣讓學校成為一個支持社區安全的一個防災防難的一個據點我想這是我們的初始目標"},{"start":4191.423,"end":4205.896,"text":"那剛才委員所關心的屬於我們行政上的疏失內部我們會深切來檢討然後如果因此而造成家長的恐慌我想我們也在這邊致歉但是確實以這樣一個辦法我們不會讓年輕學子上戰場"},{"start":4210.558,"end":4240.238,"text":"部長本席再拉回來喔剛剛特別讓你再做一個寫真說明本席拉回來現在我們所有的政府都在推AIAI我也覺得很重要但是現在AI的狀況到底有沒有推對症下藥這一點我覺得也相關重要九月的時候我們有召集台灣大專院校人工智慧學程聯盟的一個記者會就希望是說這些大學來開相關的AI的課程結果"},{"start":4241.238,"end":4260.67,"text":"現在變成是不少聯盟學校的選課不盡理想一堂課說只有兩個人選讀甚至私校還有祭出獎勵金制度修一門課可以得到一萬塊取得教育部證書再發十萬外界批評說私校發一萬為了拿教育部的補助"},{"start":4262.485,"end":4288.725,"text":"會不會本末倒置根委員這完全沒有補助的根委員澄清這完全沒有補助那是怎麼樣來整合我們當時就是為了因應這個產業跟我們年輕世代學子的一個學習上的有更豐富的一個學習資源事實上是透過以台澄清教為主這些研究型大學的老師教授共同來"},{"start":4289.906,"end":4290.646,"text":"對,但是現在看起來就是一堂課選修的狀況不佳"},{"start":4320.346,"end":4346.314,"text":"所以說是不是就是說在這個上面跟委員報告我們原來設定就是第一學期就2400位目前事實上實際休克是2500多位簡單而來講遠距教學就都是用遠距教學那麼各校因為這一個學生跟開課的資源不太但是另外一個部分高等教育的部分這再請資料給本席可是另外"},{"start":4347.314,"end":4374.081,"text":"現在教育部也研擬辦理國中小的AI精英爭霸賽AI精英爭霸賽先不講是說這樣的一個名稱有沒有造成是說大家覺得是精英教育但另外教育部的指引課堂上不要讓13歲以下的學生使用一般的生成式AI那會不會就有點矛盾你又要辦國中小的AI精英爭霸賽然後你又跟大家講是說13歲以下"},{"start":4375.123,"end":4384.388,"text":"學生盡量避免使用一般性的AI因為時間已經超過了那是不是部長書面報告給他或者是到他辦公室說明好嗎有沒有在研議有在研議這件事情嗎"},{"start":4392.694,"end":4397.896,"text":"我們很持平來講今天40幾人質詢我們通常也都是到兩點沒問題我們也可以會開長一點沒事我尊重你但是部長"},{"start":4410.262,"end":4410.442,"text":"市長,沒問題,我們繼續"},{"start":4426.307,"end":4442.133,"text":"有相關資料可以提供給本席,好不好?好,會後我們會提供給委員,謝謝部長請回,那謝謝洪孟漢委員下次你當召委的時候,你多長都可以好嗎?好,我們下一位請柯志恩委員謝謝主席,我們請部長那個部長請"},{"start":4458.407,"end":4471.44,"text":"好,我們節省時間啊,部長,我們的業務報告裡面第23頁裡面有提到私校轉型,高峰學院變成國小,南榮科技大學雙語國小,道江管理學院是長照中心,中州科大呢?中州科大去哪裡了?對啊,退場了,你們做了什麼用?"},{"start":4478.281,"end":4498.131,"text":"你們退場做了什麼?內政部的...全民國防的一個場合喔!好!全民國防來我們看下面一個你剛出的時候你9月24號就全部過給23.6億的校產你過戶給我們中央這是第一所然後呢你要做回什麼?前面不要飄那麼快前面你過戶給我們什麼?做戶給我們全民防衛還有保二總隊的這個中隊來做使用"},{"start":4507.015,"end":4515.279,"text":"是不是?沒有錯吧?部長你點頭點了這個部分你難道不曉得在中州課大的時候我們當初是做了多少的討論來我們看下一頁那時候在潘部長的時候我不曉得他有沒有跟你們做這個移交他認為是全台首間改為社會住宅的退場私校好我們退一萬不想我們來看看私校退場條例有哪一條告訴我你可以用全民防衛營的空間"},{"start":4535.858,"end":4547.851,"text":"74條,你如果把它清算完畢之後呢,辦理教育、文化、社會福利還有財團法人,而且你以辦理教育、文化、社會福利為限,哪一個條文告訴我你有全民防衛營區的空間?哪一個條文告訴我?"},{"start":4551.22,"end":4555.485,"text":"跟委員報告這是私效法不是退場條例私效法裡面拿出來看一下而且我還要特別跟部長提到一件事情來我們往下來看不管是任何的總統候選人當初賴總統在政大高喊居住正義的時候呢"},{"start":4567.58,"end":4579.857,"text":"就告訴我退場的場地是要用公益使用可以納入建造社會住宅從頭到尾都一直在提到這個層面來我們往下結果呢你選前是社會住宅你選後變成一個軍營所以這個部分來說的話更何況"},{"start":4584.884,"end":4601.503,"text":"目前來說你說轉移給內政部好不好內政部目前內部的資料裡面你9月22都已經對外公告了目前為止還停留在文教區所以他到底你的整個使用區分是放在哪裡告訴我一下使用區分目前為止這一塊地的使用區分是在哪裡"},{"start":4604.409,"end":4612.052,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前退場條例你告訴我現在目前的使用區分到底在哪裡使用區分目前是文教區那現在已經把產權移給我們內政部憑什麼憑什麼要文改內政部依照退場條例我們的校產就是歸政府單位或是地方政府"},{"start":4626.078,"end":4653.289,"text":"你當初的整個優先次序裡面啊條文這麼樣子而且我強調你在選前的時候信誓旦旦告訴我你有它的一個規列而且那個時候呢所有人都已經很明顯的知道為什麼大家會認為是中州原因很簡單嘛因為大家都從它的整個土地面積來看不管是它的6公頃的土地快速道路接近國號等等之類的它是最適合蓋社宅的然後呢你就拱手讓給"},{"start":4654.79,"end":4655.07,"text":"一天到晚在罵財團是圖音結果呢"},{"start":4680.618,"end":4684.601,"text":"最後一步拱手讓給內政部而且土地的使用區分目前都還沒有變更過來而且你看看國防部超過140億你不好好去火化你還任他佔用38年目前為止列管的空間還有這麼多地方115處了你什麼都不用把你們這麼一塊地方來做這樣的使用你這不一句話都不會講嗎"},{"start":4700.393,"end":4721.012,"text":"你們教育部完全不會講嗎?難道部長不能跟行政院長說你拿用限額經營做全民防衛為什麼要拿這塊土地可以給更多年輕人來使用可以給更多的時候來做佛化教育部一句話都不講嗎?更何況你們去年你們教育部長還信誓旦旦總統還信誓旦旦這些都可以當作是我們的社會住宅教育部沒有意見嗎?所以我只能給你歸納"},{"start":4722.173,"end":4723.234,"text":"部長,教育部沒有一句話嗎?部長"},{"start":4751.924,"end":4778.11,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為確實這一個我想社會住宅它當然是其中的一個選項之一嘛但是這一個整個它過程裡邊我想我確實在進來以後在想說你9月24號才對外宣布啦它去年12月就已經第二日被禁了它進行了一段的一個時間我想喜多的一個決策我是尊重"},{"start":4778.53,"end":4781.894,"text":"你是尊重我們一點都不想我只告訴你這麼樣一塊的地方我還是強調你不要當作合法強盜拱手讓給內政部讓給中央單位然後不要做出這個錯誤的決定有很多地方可以來做你的軍營民營的這個方式來去做讓教育部不要背負這樣的一個惡名"},{"start":4797.79,"end":4814.731,"text":"接下來還是跟私校有關這個我不講了剛剛已經講很多了你的配套當中呢你花了700萬請了金屬工業中心來組組專家團隊來做一個評估我知道金屬工業中心在高雄人才非常的多但是呢他熟悉私校退場嗎"},{"start":4815.672,"end":4822.555,"text":"你每一年編700萬喔你編700萬喔請問這樣的中心怎麼樣協助學校的轉型我們再往下看我要的資料你們告訴我說他可以來提供這些服務這些可以提供這些服務請問他提供了哪一些這些如果你還要再花700萬把它委託出去然後來做一個退場的這個校地的使用如果做的成功我要你計時司跟高教室幹嘛每年編700萬請問做了什麼績效出來"},{"start":4844.085,"end":4849.839,"text":"我不是否定這個中心只是你每一年花了700萬委託委託到最後不是涉責還變成軍營這700萬請問在做什麼"},{"start":4856.36,"end":4877.1,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於私校退場有兩個計畫在執行,一個是在退場前,抱歉,退場前對於學校的一個轉型補打。好,市長你的話非常多,我時間非常缺,因為今天主席給我要尊重時間,但是你只告訴我,700萬做的這些事情高教師計時都做不到嗎?"},{"start":4878.906,"end":4889.571,"text":"委員報告這個是要一串的一個輔導我會把詳細資料準備還跟委員非常告訴我否則我們在審預算的時候我們就好好來看一下你到底這個700萬到底要是怎麼樣說我們好好來審查接下來還是一句話等一下要凍結要解凍你就告訴我你還寫的一個針對中州科大九校"},{"start":4898.875,"end":4914.247,"text":"教育的運用跟活化我就要請問一下你的活化的原則到底在哪裡活化的原則在哪裡更何況中座這一塊根本不叫活化所以你的原則在哪裡等下跟本席來做一個說明好一個很重要的議題我們來看一下校園到底安不安心你看從112年到110年增加的六成我們大專學生被騙增加一倍以上"},{"start":4922.933,"end":4929.239,"text":"青少年涉入這個炸的我們一天到晚都說我們要打炸你看看這個數據101年到這個部分裡面整個青少年涉入的人數去詐騙的人數變成嫌疑犯者增加了幾乎是95%"},{"start":4939.628,"end":4956.776,"text":"所以你看得出來嘛你看少年犯罪多而且你看他前面所做的工作是什麼車手提供照賬戶交易糾紛而且呢很多都是三成錯學沒有就業的而且有很多7%是沒有就學或是沒有就業部長這個數字其實很觸目驚心往下看"},{"start":4960.077,"end":4973.926,"text":"然後呢那時候警政署就提醒我們國教署要注意我們這些中輟學生但是呢我只要問一下為什麼到這五年來高中生修學跟學習喪失的比率卻是不斷的上升再看看下面的數據你看看"},{"start":4977.189,"end":5001.153,"text":"107年是4.96我們目前為止就根據數字欄裡面來說話高中輟學的比率增加這麼多再往下來看這個部分裡面為什麼會如此我把一中東網上部長跟相關的主管可以一次一次來我們所關切的一個議題哦你看高中生發生意外裡面110年大概2.9但是呢自殺的比率都要佔三成而且國中生最最多"},{"start":5001.713,"end":5020.524,"text":"你比對一下106年到111年光是這樣的比率來說的話你看多增加了5到10倍之多這個數字來說而且我們再看最後一張你看這些裡面我提到的這個自殺的數據當中八成四殺的學生完全沒有跟輔導士來求助每個學校都有輔導士孩子為什麼不願意求助為什麼"},{"start":5025.37,"end":5036.093,"text":"因為他怕被貼標籤他們在這裡面有太多太多的所以從這個部分裡面其實我要引到最後的部分裡面這麼樣的一個數字當中通報數字是過去的好幾倍我們學校的三級輔導的強化跟落實大家都能夠寄望這學輔法不管在師資不管在薪資不管在點數等等之類還有包括人員的穩定面對這麼多的學生的自殺自傷自殘的問題"},{"start":5054.019,"end":5079.368,"text":"到底現在目前結果是怎麼樣部長我想謝謝委員關心確實我進來其實我跟委員報告政府在這個防毒打詐我事實上是有積極建議的因為我們看到怎麼樣讓整個社會校園的環境包括霸凌這些等等的怎麼樣去有一個更友善的一個學習環境我其實在"},{"start":5080.228,"end":5085.551,"text":"部長我肯定你的積極我肯定你的積極但是我覺得行政院在這個金在這個錢的輔導的金錢上面顯然沒有配合你的積極他們非常的消極還是在護著覺得這些東西不能有額外的這樣的一個支出這就是我們為什麼學府法到目前為止還卡關的緣故對不對所以部長你的積極顯然不是你認知的積極你要更要的"},{"start":5106.243,"end":5108.724,"text":"我們希望目前為止都還在做這樣的一個協商但是就我理解協商目前卡關原因就是還是來自經費的問題"},{"start":5129.933,"end":5131.955,"text":"時間已經超過了那請部長後續再書面答覆或再跟柯委員辦公室說明那部長請回謝謝柯智恩委員的質詢我們下一位林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":5155.246,"end":5166.052,"text":"主席各位立院同仁還有我們今天教育部相關的部會夥伴們大家早大家好我先有請部長有請鄭部長謝謝部長本席今天就一些議題來跟部長這邊做個討論委員好"},{"start":5180.888,"end":5198.977,"text":"部長首先我要先針對學齡前聽力篩檢政策的議題來跟您先做個討論跟建議像是這樣子在2024年10月的時候有很多相關的報導在談到全台各縣市學齡前聽力篩檢實施上"},{"start":5202.279,"end":5217.453,"text":"在實際的進行其實有一些很明顯的差異那最重要的一個問題就是很多聽損的兒童沒有辦法被及時的篩檢那因此呢導致他們在進入3歲到4歲幼兒園的時候才發現這個問題可是這個問題就已經嚴重的影響他們的語言學習社交能力還有學籍表現上"},{"start":5225.34,"end":5242.131,"text":"目前很多家長已經關注而且在處理這個問題所以這個部分本席今天要跟您做一個提醒也期待教育部這邊會有一些做法這個問題最主要就是說中央有一些篩檢的機制但是從學齡前一直到學習的這個過程當中學校佔了很重要的一個角色"},{"start":5248.595,"end":5261.221,"text":"這個問題最主要是在由各地方政府自行負責的時候呢導致在篩檢的覆蓋率資源的配置還有執行標準上產生很大的一個差距那也有一些研究報導的這個顯示3.86的幼兒"},{"start":5264.642,"end":5279.873,"text":"其實存在聽力的異常問題麻煩回到那個percentage那一頁但是在一些資源比較短缺的地方偏鄉也好或者是資源沒有那麼豐碩教育資源沒有那麼豐碩的地方就產生出這樣子的語言障礙學習的困難"},{"start":5281.534,"end":5296.901,"text":"所以尤其是在這個像高雄啊還有離島還有一些像離島的這個各縣市那所以這個部分是在如果能夠及時干預然後讓數據一致性也就是說中央如果能夠有一些做法其實可以減少這樣的問題那不曉得部長的看法"},{"start":5300.281,"end":5327.389,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這一個在內政部有一個早期療癒的這樣的一個委員會我們也是委員之一那我想我們一定會在這一個委員會裡面做事實的反映那我相信在衛福部的一些相關的醫療系統他也一定能夠掌握這樣一個順序我們來跨部會看怎麼來協助這些幼兒能夠早期被發現能夠讓他們有一個更好的一個發展的一個可能"},{"start":5329.294,"end":5352.313,"text":"謝謝部長這邊在今天本席提醒發現了這樣一個問題所以我這邊一個建議是說其實在篩檢的部分專業人員是很重要的一件事情但是由於地方缺乏這樣子的資源所以專業人員在你們可能有的時候在幼兒園請老師還有學校的教職員也協助做這樣的處理可是因為專業度的問題變成在新生兒到學齡前"},{"start":5356.876,"end":5376.767,"text":"這中間產生了很大一個狀況所以這一段期待教育部能夠好好的來把握對不起下一頁我們來看一下那個在新生兒的篩檢目前中央的給付是700元但是學齡前的篩檢只有100元這個我先提出來讓教育部你們如果在這樣一個平台上可以針對這個問題還針對經費來做處理"},{"start":5380.769,"end":5381.009,"text":"部長您的看法"},{"start":5412.534,"end":5433.443,"text":"我們怎麼樣有更多的一些專業人員能夠協助這些幼兒的一些發展我想謝謝委員好的那所以最後的提醒就是長期寫系統化的聽力篩檢最重要的是干預政策你如果能夠先找先做些干預然後讓兒童的發展不會被漏掉那就可以減少這個問題"},{"start":5435.365,"end":5436.366,"text":"接下來也是這個偏鄉的問題"},{"start":5449.981,"end":5474.309,"text":"我想教育部你們最近這個語言的政策也是一直有在被討論但是我這邊關心的是這個主語跟特教教室那上個禮拜呢我們針對全國的這個教育設施有一些討論但是我這邊要談的是那我們在全國老舊校舍補強整建計劃當中可能在硬體的層面那教育部這邊是可以掌握的但是在軟體的部分"},{"start":5475.509,"end":5495.422,"text":"既然你們推出了這個主語教學也有這樣主語教師但是呢他們很重要的一個問題就是教室的需求其實被忽略而且忽略很久了所以就本席在偏鄉看到的這個經驗是主語教師沒有教室常常借用校長室借用餐廳甚至"},{"start":5496.323,"end":5510.254,"text":"自然界的東西都已經使用了可是像下雨天那裡面有的時候會漏水那外面就更不用講所以很多學生得在不合適的環境下上課那不知道部裡面對於這樣子的一個問題的掌握跟解決的方式"},{"start":5511.377,"end":5534.815,"text":"我想提供這個援助民族學生這個有更好的一個主語的學習環境這事實上是教育部一直在努力的部長我也提醒一下特教也是在特殊教育這一環也是常常在硬體還有這樣一個整備事實上是被忽略的所以我們剛才主語的部分還有特教的這個部分上課還在漏水或者校長是這個麻煩委員直接讓我們知道"},{"start":5537.797,"end":5539.258,"text":"我想我們會直接來瞭解改善我想我們會"},{"start":5553.769,"end":5570.269,"text":"來瞭解因為跟委員報告我事實上利用暑假也去看了一些嚴重民族的一個學校其實在這個部分也看到我們國教署相當用心在扶持比如說八蘭花這一個嚴重民族的一個實驗學校他就做的一個非常好"},{"start":5570.99,"end":5592.959,"text":"他整個的環境空間甚至還提供給國際課能夠來這邊住宿然後能夠傳播原住民族的許多文化再跟國際界來傳播謝謝部長有關心這個部分但是最重要的不是只有原住民族的實驗學校主語這個學校那另外其實在都會裡面也會有偏鄉裡面當然更多不是只有原住民族的實驗學校"},{"start":5600.502,"end":5614.973,"text":"公能也不是為了漢人來推動原住民的文化但是很重要一點就是說主語教師對普遍的全國普遍的有這個情形原住民主主義的一個教學其實我相信不是只有原住民主主義但是我看到的是原住民"},{"start":5615.373,"end":5629.372,"text":"民主主義是很普遍的存在這樣的現象但是特殊教師也是所以這些相對比較弱勢的在教學場域當中的請部裡面多加注意在都會有可能出現這樣的狀況但是偏鄉是很普遍"},{"start":5633.016,"end":5658.338,"text":"所以請注意一下特殊學生跟主語的這個學生上課的一個需求接下來那個早上我們那個部長一直對我們奧運今年的這個獎項感到很自豪那很重要的一點是那我們如何持續這樣一個動能繼續往下走所以呢我想這一次這個羽球讓我們也感到非常的驕傲"},{"start":5659.159,"end":5676.21,"text":"但是很重要的各位你要知道在選手被培育的過程當中每一個階段都是重要的雖然我有跟部長做一個交流我告訴你一個觀念比如說那個足球隊還是很多選手現在都還在他很好的狀態我們不能只管小朋友這些選手還是要被照顧"},{"start":5677.751,"end":5679.512,"text":"李洋在基隆起家他能夠有今天這麼好的成績其實跟他過去很基礎的培育很重要所以在8月份本席也到他被培育的學校"},{"start":5693.596,"end":5713.735,"text":"來瞭解在基隆這個地方他們予求的一個設施狀況那當時教育部也有人來那整個計畫你們說已經成型那現在要提國發會可是依照本席所瞭解的最新的進度到現在好像還沒有到國發會到底送了沒啊"},{"start":5714.981,"end":5735.791,"text":"他現在跟委員報告因為他整個計畫在審查過程有做了一個國化會這一個中央部會有一些相關的建議但是我記得當時你們說在9月底已經修改現在重新再送到國化會所以應該會很快就會核定好那那個期程上是什麼因為你們說9月底要送嘛那如果你們又來來回回的有這樣一個過程已經送了已經在國化會了"},{"start":5738.232,"end":5766.965,"text":"現在在國發會 因為上一次他是已經修正後然後再送回去所以我們教育部也去徵詢所以現在在國發會接下來的徵詢是什麼接著就合訂以後就馬上就可以進行了嗎對對對所以確定喔就是今年一定合訂完然後明年就可以跟委員報告員所關心的他確實是已經是等於說定案的一個只是讓他整個細節能夠更完善所以應該沒有問題嘛在今年一定定案那明年我們就可以實施了對吧"},{"start":5768.125,"end":5770.127,"text":"謝謝主席,我時間壓力很大好,有請部長,謝謝"},{"start":5798.292,"end":5798.493,"text":"有請鄭部長"},{"start":5801.909,"end":5830.438,"text":"部長我們今天快問快答可以嗎好我時間壓力很大第一個部長有一個出版社他在他的講義裡面提到有民眾黨點點點點然後造福什麼鄉親然後但是呢暗酸另外的政黨好所有洗腦的工作你有看到這個新聞嗎在給學生寫的講義裡面我知道國教院負責審查課本好但是為什麼講義出現這個東西我們不是要教育場域要政治中立嗎為什麼會出現這個東西看起來部長沒有掌握情況"},{"start":5831.448,"end":5837.295,"text":"國教院知道這件事情?國教院很清楚是謝謝委員基本上這個事情快問快答謝謝"},{"start":5838.874,"end":5867.767,"text":"那因為教科書的審定呢是在國教院的範圍對我知道講義 包括課本跟席座這是複習講義 是那不在我們國教院範圍 那我們要這樣回答家長嗎有 我們還是把這樣的一個信息給出版社 我們可以有什麼更積極的作為嗎 請他們做專業上的判准他們的判准如果他告訴你他專業上的判准他決定這樣做是對的你也接受嗎我們要這樣回應家長我們要這樣回應學生而且我現在還在而且他是在公民課本裡面欸"},{"start":5868.717,"end":5894.859,"text":"我想這個我們會直接依照情節請出版業來進行資料更新跟內容刊物好謝謝部長你的回應比較正向我可以接受這個說法身為兩個小孩都還在學校念書的家長我完全沒有辦法接受謝謝好來關於體育零容忍的部分雖然我們要即將成立運動部但是有一些非常重要的議題我還是快速跟部長溝通部長關於監察院有對某一個教練提出糾正但是這樣的教練竟然還在學校裡頭我之前已經跟體育署說過了"},{"start":5895.74,"end":5903.983,"text":"再來很多很多的案子還包含五人制足球協會的會議當中我們發函請體育署說明但是體育署給我們的回應說這個會議太多沒有辦法逐一說明可是有兒虐的教練在賽事場上開會還有人當志工更不要說8月9月每一個禮拜幾乎每一個禮拜都會有跟體育或者是運動相關的兒虐案件不斷在發生那林榮仁這件我們行政上我們輸肉"},{"start":5922.409,"end":5925.851,"text":"我相信你的態度是積極的我也相信你願意內部檢討我完全相信但是部長我們這樣看起來如果有很多事情我們沒有辦法及時完成其實文化部在去年的蜜兔事件之後有開始做一些追回獎項"},{"start":5942.162,"end":5942.482,"text":"可以嗎?可以好,謝謝部長,來,下一個"},{"start":5971.226,"end":5971.846,"text":"可以嗎,部長?可以好,謝謝部長再來"},{"start":6000.275,"end":6013.346,"text":"好 這個事情真的有點可怕之前有范雲委員提醒體育署要簽相關的契約我們覺得很好保障雙方選手跟協會的權利跟義務但是我們得到的內容卻是9月30號以前叫選手要開這個選區委員會還要找三個選手一起討論10月30號通過理事會公告"},{"start":6018.49,"end":6039.929,"text":"可是呢選手卻被告知10月30號要簽一份很可怕的合約我只舉其中一個例子你們告訴選手說不得於公開場合或社群媒體網站的方法以不當的行為或言論導致於有辱代表隊破壞代表隊和諧及損及國家榮譽如果我今天不是在台灣的立法院看到這個公文我真的會以為我在什麼極權國家"},{"start":6041.09,"end":6048.82,"text":"什麼叫做有入國家榮譽我們是要怎麼樣管制選手的言論但是這個契約竟然是體育署公辦給所有單項運動協會要他們去叫選手簽"},{"start":6052.379,"end":6065.951,"text":"謝謝委員提醒事實上現在目前這個是沒有的沒有部長不是這樣我聽到是你們已經協會叫選手要簽所以我猜想體育署沒有立刻讓部長我們會積極跟你們追蹤所以請部長公開宣誓告訴選手你不用急著簽讓教育部去跟體育署搞清楚狀況可以嗎部長可以所以部長你認同對不對是我們不應該做出這個侵害人權事宜這個太荒謬了"},{"start":6080.489,"end":6085.351,"text":"大漢這個問題我知道教育部已經核准他們退場我只是想問部長還沒有畢業這些學生他們在怎麼辦我們查了相關的數字原住民的學生然後或者是相關特教學生佔的比例將近50%而這些學生只是叫他轉學部長你去過花蓮嗎花蓮最後他要轉只剩下東華大學可以轉東華大學要收嗎還是大漢學院打算拿一萬一個人一萬五千塊把他們送去別的地方他們要怎麼被送去別的地方"},{"start":6106.479,"end":6115.883,"text":"有非常多孩子就在當地沒有辦法離開還有慈濟大學那你們有跟慈濟談嗎還有慈濟相關醫護的科系是不是原本這些不管是管理啊貿易啊人文科系不一樣啊部長謝謝委員關心這個學生的一個受教協議我們之後來討論可以嗎我覺得你們要讓大漢退場我原則上我雖然有我的想法但我沒有意見我尊重你們的判斷但是這些還沒有辦法畢業的學生你打算就這樣拋棄他們嗎我覺得身為花蓮的人我沒有辦法接受學校如果能夠先安置"},{"start":6136.932,"end":6160.542,"text":"但是教育部他沒有辦法的全部教育部安置我們教育部要這樣幫忙嗎?是用這個角度這樣幫忙嗎?那學校不用負起責任嗎?因為教育委員我們的教委之前為了這群孩子召開記者會但是如果部長你說學校沒有辦法處理我們教育部接手那我們就往這個方向追喔協助確保這些學生可以留在當地就學的權益"},{"start":6162.199,"end":6164.66,"text":"藝術音樂科系招生缺額連年增加有多麼可怕部長到了113年我們的缺額已經到了50%那已經有相關音樂藝術舞蹈的科系老師在提出這個警鐘"},{"start":6186.946,"end":6205.36,"text":"我當然知道孩子們的就學有他們的考量但是我們這些音樂藝術舞蹈科系的老師他們在問我們有沒有別的機會教育部來積極的協助那我自己這邊快速的想不管是我們從國中小或是大專業校相關領域的學習或者是如同我們在開設AI學程我們跨校"},{"start":6206.481,"end":6227.009,"text":"這些藝術科系可不可以得到教育部的支持協助他們或者是設計相關的學程例如說我們很多音樂家好朋友他們在國外念書的時候他們會被要求要去上管理的課經營的課人文的課豐富他的專業領域等到他進入產業當中他不見得一定是一個在台上表演那個人他可以是在整個產業界工作的人部長你自己怎麼看這個事情"},{"start":6229.693,"end":6244.147,"text":"我想因為首先跟委員報告因為我們現在藝術類科基本上都是各大專業校他們單招我知道我知道我知道但是我們教育部可以有一些角色吧如果有學校提出他們有例如說跨學程整合的需求跨校結合的需求"},{"start":6244.787,"end":6260.759,"text":"總質詢"},{"start":6260.859,"end":6281.656,"text":"已經是非常多爸爸媽媽延伸到學校老師的痛了我之前也跟部長分享過小一的老師必須要幫孩子開3C戒毒班他才有辦法教小一的小孩開始學注音符號這件事情已經在很多地方發生了3C的困境我想部長都知道但是因為那些總諮詢的時間有限我可不可以問其實就教育部的角度我知道你們有做嬰幼兒閱讀禮帶"},{"start":6282.717,"end":6282.737,"text":"﹚審查"},{"start":6304.77,"end":6323.452,"text":"在非常多的醫學研究裡面都已經證實了但是可能就教育部的立場過往把閱讀作為一個其他風化學院的事情或者是所謂培養興趣的事情但是就我現在看起來如果我們還要走入AIAI只是協助我們的工具但是本身思辨能力跟批判能力的培養必須透過閱讀部長你認同嗎?"},{"start":6325.634,"end":6350.606,"text":"我完全認同委員所對這一個小孩子的教育跟在閱讀他的一個價值的一些例子、思想我剛剛幫教育部這邊列出來所以我不會說教育部都沒有做事但是我們可不可以更廣泛更深入的去看閱讀這件事情到底可以怎麼從兩歲開始為什麼說兩歲因為教育部你們主管的幼兒園是從兩歲開始我們可不可以從幼兒園開始甚至我們現在幼兒園是沒有採購沒有購出預算的"},{"start":6354.669,"end":6355.614,"text":"部長你知道這個事情嗎?是"},{"start":6358.551,"end":6386.805,"text":"在設備設施採購裡邊他還是有各校裡邊有彈性可以來用而演但是這個部長你講到彈性了但是在去年部長跟你報告去年國教法修法之前我們台灣的中小學是沒有固定的購書預算去年國教法我率先提出必須要有固定的預算或者是每年應變的預算我們台灣才正式有用整體政府完整的預算在支持閱讀這件事情如果我們要走入AI還不認真回過頭來面對閱讀我不知道我們的AI要走到哪裡去跟委員報告"},{"start":6387.645,"end":6405.849,"text":"我們從今年開始就已經有編這個中小學有編3億特別活這個這個我知道我就說是國家法修法的時候我們提出來的包含這個3C事實上我其實非常佩服委員所收集的所看的東西前一陣子委員特別提到說the anxious generation你已經看完了讓我嚇一跳我想這裡邊有太多的研究的證據"},{"start":6410.59,"end":6426.219,"text":"非常多的政績對山西新世代的小孩子過度使用他會帶來許多心理上的一些我想業主障礙業主也是我上任以後特別交代國教署一定要全力支持因為小孩子要透過業主才能夠有一個更好的一個發展"},{"start":6428.66,"end":6452.376,"text":"我真的非常謝謝部長今天所有題目都給我正面的回應但我們後續會有非常多的討論時間要拜託教育部各個部會都必須要動起來我們不管在閱讀在運動或者是在剛剛音樂藝術相關科系我們有非常多議題要一起努力好嗎好謝謝部長今天透露該答謝謝主席我時間掌握得很好謝謝好謝謝陳培偉然後部長請回也時間掌握得非常好那再來是我執行請陳培偉幫我準備主持謝謝"},{"start":6461.681,"end":6463.182,"text":"財務部長財務部長早安想先跟您請問您有沒有看過賴總統的跟教育有關的相關證件"},{"start":6485.902,"end":6511.34,"text":"有的有齁那賴總統其中一個政見是因應數位時代啟動性別平等教育2.0那不知道部長曉不曉得是要解決哪些重要問題我想在這個性別平權我想是一個很重要的包含性別的刻板印象以及在這個尊重這個性別的差異化等等的有相當多的一些有關這個性別"},{"start":6514.162,"end":6519.947,"text":"因為我不知道部長因為我這邊已經幫你把他的細節放出來有沒有就是說開始準備要怎麼處理那我是把他這三點簡化成三個方向一個就是目前的教學內容非常的不完全因為教材其實都需要發展的我相信部長了解"},{"start":6535.058,"end":6559.953,"text":"另外一個就是數位時代其實我們過去的教材還是太以女性的經驗為主沒有把男性的經驗不管是受措或者是他的成長過程中受到的教育都能夠有一些些的回應也不夠注重情感教育第三個很關鍵的問題是老師多數是不會教不知道怎麼教"},{"start":6560.733,"end":6574.938,"text":"今天我就針對這三個方向想跟部長討論到底教育部現在是不是有準備好怎麼處理第一個從老師不會教的問題開始我們性別評論教育協會一些是以老師為主的組織他做的一個檢視的報告發現有39.15%幾乎是四成老師從來表示他們沒有接受過相關課程的訓練"},{"start":6589.984,"end":6596.228,"text":"那教育部現在有我一直去跟你們要你們的規劃方案那你們給我的從11學年2022年到2025年那發現其實過去的話幾乎都是主張說有融入式"},{"start":6605.154,"end":6611.698,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案"},{"start":6631.391,"end":6635.797,"text":"光是講相關的法規跟辨識就要9小時最後花在教學實作跟課程上只有6小時以我們的教書經驗6小時的時間非常的短"},{"start":6646.391,"end":6646.411,"text":"好"},{"start":6674.875,"end":6695.977,"text":"跟委員報告這個當然在之前我們事實上現在在教師的資格考試也把性評的這一個領域的一個支持作為納入這個考試的命題那另外呢我們在實習階段也有許多這個要求各施設培養單位也辦研習活動也就是說它不是只是一個在之前你編的18小時"},{"start":6697.759,"end":6712.41,"text":"我知道有一些部分的施培機構他們也把性別教育當作一個專門的一個選修或者必修的一個科目那當然這裡邊大學要開還要靠我知道教育部有一些做法因為時間有限但是你們有沒有一個評估跟檢討的成效我們剛剛看到民間的教師組織性別變成教育協會他調查到的幾乎四成的人說沒有完全沒有上過相關的課程"},{"start":6724.119,"end":6729.061,"text":"委員會後來更仔細來瞭解然後看怎麼樣來改善我們整個市培的問題不管在preservice或者inservice那這是第一個我想你們這樣做很好新增加這個18小時專題課程可是要有一個評估檢討機制好嗎"},{"start":6741.447,"end":6757.496,"text":"二、教學內容我的辦公室把所有我們看到的教學內容來做檢視發現好像就是10年才會增加一筆而且面向相當的局限沒有與時俱進"},{"start":6759.057,"end":6785.331,"text":"所以如果老師要透過你的這個相關的教育部的網站教學資源的話那其實真的是內容太少了我們看到的是10年才增加一筆那如果我們回來看教科書你會發現就是依照聯合國教科文提出的全面性教育八大核心概念來比照108課綱之後會發現課綱在很多的部分是空缺的"},{"start":6785.691,"end":6786.312,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀列席報告"},{"start":6804.793,"end":6830.255,"text":"也非常的缺乏情緒及情感教育還有多元性別教育我們剛講賴總統的2.0中有一個就是在強調情感教育跟能不能以男性的經驗為出發讓他們能夠有一些對話的機會那所以我覺得教材缺乏是個很大的問題那部長有聽過那個臺大學生的言論自由月的事件嗎"},{"start":6832.445,"end":6841.069,"text":"沒有沒關係部長事後可以去了解如果連這些大學生都明明白白的性別歧視的話我想我們現在既有的性別的平等的相關的資源其實是還不足的"},{"start":6850.553,"end":6850.674,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6866.872,"end":6879.383,"text":"客板印象的就是教條式的平權教育是沒有辦法真的改變大家的觀念所以就會出現一些尖銳的反彈那這個部分我們是不是能夠從課綱教科書到教學資源能夠全面的檢討更新與時俱進呢這個是就教材內容的全面性"},{"start":6888.474,"end":6906.554,"text":"謝謝委員指正。確實我想在性別教育這個領域怎麼讓它有更豐富的這些教材或者網路的一些教學資源。我想這都是我們可以來努力也可以結合民間團體裡面共同來開發。"},{"start":6908.996,"end":6936.898,"text":"另外也跟委員報告剛才所以臺大的學生這個我們確實看到因為山西的所謂的一世代他確實因為在那一個網路裡邊他一定程度的就變成他其實不一定不必然有性別歧視是只是他習慣了在那一個那一個場域就把自己關起來了所以他當然這也是我們一直在正式希望怎麼樣在減少山西對許多情感交易人際互動"},{"start":6937.558,"end":6941.363,"text":"包括許多的一個更健康的一個發展我們事實上也在注意到這個問題"},{"start":6955.859,"end":6957.32,"text":"施培施培有點緩不及急至少現場老師性命評論教育協會的報告有40%完全沒有相關的訓練"},{"start":6972.092,"end":6988.774,"text":"國小來看全台就有10萬名的老師所以我想現在做除了失陪的內容繼續強化深化之外是不是同步能夠有另一個解方因為等到失陪完成所有的老師百分之百都有相關訓練的話我不知道是不是要再一個10年"},{"start":6989.855,"end":6990.115,"text":"我想這樣的一個想法"},{"start":7012.91,"end":7035.282,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7035.302,"end":7061.868,"text":"三個實質的就是說操作的內容那部長是不是可以在三個月內提檢討報告然後讓我知道你們打算怎麼做好不好三個月內時間夠長了吧可以但是有一些還真的不需要那麼長就馬上立刻做很好那可以隨時給我們辦公室一個書面資料好不好那謝謝部長覺得三個月可能太長了可以很多立刻開始做感謝部長謝謝"},{"start":7068.273,"end":7081.083,"text":"謝謝范芸昭委也謝謝部長好謝謝培育委員戴主席我們下一位請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝謝昭委有請部長好有請部長"},{"start":7098.769,"end":7109.729,"text":"委員好部長你好部長我是三寶奶爸請問一下部長您有幾個孩子我有兩位小孩兩位小朋友那我想跟您請問一下小朋友現在年紀多大"},{"start":7113.073,"end":7136.73,"text":"三十幾歲了在國外嗎都在國內都在國內好謝謝部長部長我想剛剛很多的一些委員都很關心高中青年服勤的同意書那當然你有提到依據國防部的函然後你們去加以發這個同意書有這樣子的一個動作對吧是我想請問一下目前發放的學校數量有多少"},{"start":7138.182,"end":7140.513,"text":"跟委員報告這個比較詳細的是不是請吳司長來請說"},{"start":7143.134,"end":7171.64,"text":"我們這個是針對高中以上的學校所以基本上高中以上的學校應該都有收到我們的計畫奇怪為什麼我問我們學區的一些高中就說沒有收到所以我不太了解到底有沒有發放那發放的數量有多少因為我們高中以下學校是透過地方政府轉發所以有可能地方政府的處理方式對不起我是問高中對那是涉及到地方政府的執行的層面好那現在我想問一下因為你們說是配合權動法部長對吧是"},{"start":7173.106,"end":7201.613,"text":"那我想全民防衛動物園準備法第三條統合全民的力量支援軍事作戰及緊急行動這個清楚的寫到我想為什麼會有一些相關的後期就是因為戰事發生當然我們在文字在一直在著重在文字上到底有沒有上戰場我們最不希望的不是孩子在戰場或者是非戰場而是台灣要和平的情況之下不要有任何的戰事"},{"start":7202.213,"end":7225.348,"text":"那我想去年呢3月國防部也曾預告修法滿16歲的高中生不論男女都要照冊納管雖然最後沒有修法成功但是我想詢問一下在這一次的同意書啊有沒有分男女還是全部都直接發放沒有根文報告沒有分男女好那一視同仁全部去做詢問那當然我想詢問一下目前回收有多少"},{"start":7228.359,"end":7254.175,"text":"跟委員說明其實我沒有要求統計回收的比率沒有統計有沒有回收總要回收吧目前知道有部分縣市有回收有部分縣市沒有那我另外想請教部長那因為最近有一個新聞中央有發文請民政系統臺中市也證實了全力配合全民國防那民政局長也提到這個廟宇活動中心會放彈藥"},{"start":7255.336,"end":7265.999,"text":"教育部目前相關的單位有收到類似的一個需求嗎?沒有跟委員報告沒有那未來如果收到這樣的需求您的態度是如何?"},{"start":7267.452,"end":7287.264,"text":"我想我們學校還是本一個我們相關的一些規範就是來協助地方這些避難社區關懷跟公共服務行政資源等等的我想我們學生的服務的範圍所有的家長當然第一優先希望我們的校園環境就是以教學為主孩子現在最重要的任務就是讀書"},{"start":7288.264,"end":7304.326,"text":"那未來很不幸的如果到了那一天發生了戰事學校作為一個避難場所當然這是一定要的但是我現在要提到的是如果未來變成像活動中心一樣像現在被廟宇所提出的需求要放彈藥"},{"start":7305.647,"end":7318.612,"text":"這件事情是非常嚴重的我們大家全民要知道一件事情當它變成放彈藥或者是軍事所相關的設備在裡面入住的時候先不講平時我們的保存是否安全暫時"},{"start":7321.414,"end":7330.825,"text":"這樣子的一個教育地點有可能會被進行轟炸因為他已經不是單純的避難我們看到俄烏戰爭在2022年的5月7號以哈戰爭2024年的8月10號9月12"},{"start":7336.152,"end":7336.372,"text":"市長您覺得認同嗎?"},{"start":7355.296,"end":7378.199,"text":"我完全認同委員所提的我們本來學校教育它是在人才培育所以在許多的當然全民國防人人有責這也是一個基本的一個責任跟態度責任態度我們支持全民國防是但是屬於這一個暫時所需要的這些武器槍彈這一個我想它不宜這一個放在學校這是清楚的"},{"start":7378.659,"end":7401.565,"text":"謝謝你 謝謝你這樣表現你的態度那我想再另外請問我們都會有打靶的經驗在學校時期那請問打靶的次數目前有準備要增加嗎我目前確實沒有規劃但是我認為這一個打靶的這樣一個對年輕人來講他也是一個很好的一個這一個愈教愈樂的一個全民國防然後能夠精進戰績的這樣的一個學習我覺得這也"},{"start":7406.966,"end":7408.727,"text":"您這樣子的回覆我不會去造謠說增加打法次數代表戰勢逼近我們不會這樣想"},{"start":7425.157,"end":7438.968,"text":"打靶其實預教預樂就像你說的他有教育性質他也讓全民國防能夠貫徹我們可以支持但說清楚講明白這件事情我覺得很重要那我想部長你知道以色列的高級長官啊孩子們都去前線打戰嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":7442.775,"end":7456.999,"text":"從這個許多的這個網路媒體的一個報導是有看到這樣的一個有看到類似這樣子那賴清德總統的兒子在美國那請問您個人知道還有哪些高級的長官他們的孩子旅居國外嗎"},{"start":7458.027,"end":7480.955,"text":"我不太清楚那我想問一下全民國訪嘛我們當然也希望能夠多增加更多的人力能夠鼓勵孩子能夠從軍那未來有沒有機會你會再發文或者是甚至同意書去詢問一下旅居國外甚至在國外求學的這些孩子有沒有意願來回到後勤來幫忙支援台灣或者是來鼓勵他們從軍"},{"start":7481.775,"end":7484.276,"text":"謝謝委員但是確實這些已經在國外讀書的他已經並非屬教育部所管轄我想全民國防這裡邊政府他有一定的這些部會在這一個部分我相信他有一定的一些行政作業流程"},{"start":7502.566,"end":7525.374,"text":"部長今天討論了這麼久不是要刁難你但我要告訴你我們都在盯這件事情我們希望教育部我們回歸到教育我們把教育辦好我們全力來當孩子的後盾這件事情非同小可我們今天已經透過媒體報導出來所以這麼多的委員在關注我希望加強我們教育部的一個態度所以我剛剛聽到我們聊天中我們可以去"},{"start":7526.354,"end":7528.435,"text":"好那我想據報宅明天行政院院會會通過運動部的組織法是否為真"},{"start":7552.509,"end":7573.283,"text":"有沒有信心通過目前教育部已經在昨天也把這一個呃呃呃呈報這一個宴會明天宴會會討論會討論有沒有信心會通過我們期待那目前組織法的進度到什麼時候到哪裡了有沒有什麼什麼時候會進到委員會只要行政院一通過當然我知道通過嘛對啊那你們有沒有信心嗎"},{"start":7582.566,"end":7595.218,"text":"蘇長有信心好那我們拭目以待那我想部長我另外再跟你請問賴清德總統在520談話希望重啟大陸學生來台就學部長這個部分您有在努力嗎"},{"start":7596.731,"end":7620.374,"text":"實際上我上任的時候也一直希望能夠這個大陸那邊的一個學生能夠來台灣就讀這也是那個總統的一個基本上在總統的政見那教育部去執行當然我想這個是一定的但是我們在我們確實先前有許多的一些溝通那陸生來台的目標人數你們目前設定的目標為多少"},{"start":7621.823,"end":7627.687,"text":"所以簡單來講就是對方封閉嘛對不對我們無法掌握來台的人數嘛甚至我們可以直接說的可能就是兩岸沒有溝通所以在這個部分上很難有進展"},{"start":7641.996,"end":7668.546,"text":"目前來看是這樣我想不是我們特別偏愛陸生我講真的但是現在我們看到各國啊很多的各國教育市場近年來多爭取擴大開放措施就是連尤其歐美各個先進國家都在面臨少子化的問題大學院校關閉的挑戰擴大吸引優秀的外籍生跟陸生變成為教育政策的施政重點之一可以認同嗎"},{"start":7670.106,"end":7685.438,"text":"我想這個大方向是是這樣子對吧那面臨我們現在私校不斷的在倒閉我想甚至國立大學的招生都有不足甚至診病的一個問題我們的中級日漸嚴重所以在這個陸生是否能夠"},{"start":7686.498,"end":7714.988,"text":"給予一些紓解緩解也是一個很重要的一個挑戰109年起陸方就不開放陸生來台就算賴清德總統公開宣誓釋出善意也很明顯的受到陸方的抵制那我想部長有沒有什麼因應的對策我們現在也因為這一個大陸的這樣目前是一個比較閉鎖的一個態度所以我們對東南亞或者歐美的一些招生事實上我們在在做更多的一些努力我想積極的步驟"},{"start":7715.828,"end":7717.288,"text":"目前海外也有不少入生的人力資源"},{"start":7739.935,"end":7765.052,"text":"我國設立的橋校就有入籍生或者在日本有永久居留權香港就學身份的入生也多次表達希望來台就學的意願受限於國籍跟身份以及教育部保守的入學政策至今無法來台就學這個部分我希望你們也能夠好好的去評估我想我們來幫賴清德總統完成入生來台政見的建議可以支持嗎當然"},{"start":7768.004,"end":7790.654,"text":"當然可以,那我們也剛才委員所提的,我們也內部會做更詳細的一些...會後再來討論,謝謝。好,謝謝,那部長請回。好,謝謝羅廷威委員的質詢跟配合。我們先宣布一下,陳秀寶委員質詢完之後我們休息10分鐘。那不好意思,郭一群委員,那我們現在請葛如君委員質詢。一位還沒休息。"},{"start":7796.079,"end":7797.32,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部正部長"},{"start":7815.051,"end":7839.405,"text":"委員好部長好我想部長應該知道4月21號我們的賴總統還沒上任的時候呢就喊出了這個百億青年海外圓夢基金我想要圓他們的夢這個您擔任校長的時候大家都說中山大學的校長是最了解青年想要什麼所以青年的夢應該要很了解我們才能夠圓他們的夢請教一下部長"},{"start":7840.365,"end":7846.882,"text":"您作為行政院親自委員會的執行長你知道目前行政院親自委員會最關心的議題是什麼嗎?"},{"start":7850.285,"end":7869.416,"text":"我想怎麼樣讓青年能夠國家來協助青年圓夢青年來協助國家圓夢我想這個是我們基本的一個精神但是部長我問的不是你心中的夢是青年心中的夢"},{"start":7870.616,"end":7889.129,"text":"這是親資委員會上面即時都會更新親資委員所關心的領域現在最重要的是青年參與但是我們現在可以看到我們青年代表最關心的議題在今天教育部的業務報告106頁裡面竟然只佔一面竟然只佔一面"},{"start":7890.711,"end":7908.871,"text":"這樣子的比重你覺得可以表達出對青年朋友意見的重視嗎?你真的知道他們的夢嗎?還是是你自己的夢?要如何擴大青年參與我已經幫您整理好了啦就是說親知委員會在第4屆第二次的會議這是2023年的1月份他們有做開會這有三個重點"},{"start":7911.293,"end":7921.719,"text":"1、希望中央要有青年事務的主責單位2、政府要藝術資源深化地方連結3、要有一部關注青年需求的青年發展專法"},{"start":7923.43,"end":7948.163,"text":"不曉得部長有沒有回頭檢視之前的會議機會來了解青年的夢不過我們想先講一下這個所謂的主責單位這件事情那其實根據教育部的統計高達20個縣市都有青年事務專責單位21個縣市有親資組織但是想請問一下部長我們目前中央青年事務的專責單位到底有沒有是誰"},{"start":7949.625,"end":7975.211,"text":"我目前教育部這邊是有一個青年署部長您一邊在回答的時候青年署署長在後面搖頭我不知道是有沒有看錯其實你要不要交流一下部長您要不要再更正一下您的答案中央到底有沒有啊您說有是青年署但署長搖頭然後還有一個"},{"start":7979.411,"end":8006.866,"text":"其實之前我在學界也跟青年署有很多交流我覺得青年署非常努力但是我想請教育部要檢討一下討論一下青年署的成績到底夠不夠高他有沒有辦法跨部會的做業務整合要扮演中央地方溝通協調的角色這個是部長您的高度要來討論的啦那我個人認為今年發展署接下來無論是預算的編制或人力的配置上都應該要有更多的資源那我們之前一直有爭取"},{"start":8007.746,"end":8017.811,"text":"經過了一年多的時間想請問教育部有沒有跟行政院爭取?行政院給人了嗎?給錢了嗎?您的責任是爭取,他給了沒?您爭取了沒?他給了沒?"},{"start":8019.554,"end":8045.428,"text":"我想我們今年確實是回應這一個剛才委員所關心的這一個我怕您麥克風沒對到那個錄音會不清楚這一個青年白衣圓夢那我們事實上在新的一四年寫年度裡邊一四年裡邊我們就先這個編了十億元希望能夠來這一個在青年署來統籌推動這樣一個錢增加的圓夢嘛待會我們會提到那人有沒有增加啊"},{"start":8047.608,"end":8062.345,"text":"人目前會因為這一個顏夢計畫裡面也會適度的有一些辦公室這個團隊上的一個部長承諾辦公室團隊人力都應該要搭配增加我們已經查了啦其實呢你們114年的預算編制青年屬還是53個人"},{"start":8065.228,"end":8076.636,"text":"今年53明年53但是預算卻增加了11億這11億裡面大部分就是10億是要做青年的圓夢而圓夢的計畫內容其實還不夠完整總體來講金智慧是我們國家最高成績的青年諮詢組織但會議的記錄其實應該要被落實希望不要把青年的想法跟他們的夢當成耳邊風"},{"start":8087.603,"end":8116.123,"text":"我想這應該是部長跟署長都認同的接下來他們還有一個夢青年基本法這個青年基本法其實已經有韓國已經有芬蘭都相繼設立了芬蘭甚至是在1972年就制定了我們台灣中華民國有11個基本法希望我們青年基本法有沒有可能成為國家的第12個基本法將青年的權益入法受法律保障這個部長是不是可以回應一下"},{"start":8116.923,"end":8128.765,"text":"我想有關青年基本法裡邊確實我們現在已經有許多的一些對地方的一個諮詢人家1972年就立了我們討論到現在行政院的版本還沒出來"},{"start":8131.377,"end":8156.898,"text":"我們現在在建立共識中這個共識希望是讓我們立法院的委員來建立共識其實我們之前就一直覺得很奇怪我們在立法院的網站一查發現其實一開始本來有很多委員要提今年基本法但是有一個很奇怪的日期叫7月12號今年的7月12號突然間民進黨的6個委員的版本同時撤案"},{"start":8157.739,"end":8178.256,"text":"同時測案結果我們進去仔細的比較然後又再重新提出這個很奇怪同進同出我們一直做的新舊版本比較阿宅要做這個difference很容易結果發現新舊版本裡面新的版本民進黨的六位委員是把設置青年發展基金的條文給刪除了"},{"start":8179.98,"end":8188.424,"text":"我們做了一些研究我們了解到據說部長曾經一一敗壞提案的委員請委員要將設置七年基本法的條文刪除"},{"start":8189.895,"end":8210.816,"text":"本席認為假設行政高層一聲立下就可以來干預立法委員的提案這是希望要求設定刪除的特定的條文這是行政權要干預立法權最壞的示範完全不可取給部長一點時間說明為什麼要來干預我們立法權呢我們所有的委員都是一體的啊為什麼就要特定去干預這些民進黨的委員呢"},{"start":8211.826,"end":8225.758,"text":"什麼原因呢?為什麼我們的國家不能設置青年發展基金?為什麼不能設置?這個如果不設置的話我們怎麼保障青年事務預算的充足?怎麼樣給予偏鄉跟特殊地區青年事務的優先補助呢?"},{"start":8227.162,"end":8227.703,"text":"可不可以回應一下?"},{"start":8248.041,"end":8261.972,"text":"所以沒有說不要設立青年基金嗎?沒有干預嗎?清清白白?對不對?我看到那個稍微搖頭了那本席的版本是有設立青年發展基金的 懇請教育部長支持可以嗎?"},{"start":8263.2,"end":8263.32,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8286.633,"end":8306.451,"text":"不要覺得說只有一個海外圓夢基金就夠了這個基金目前可以說是一個薛丁格的基金這個薛丁格這個字已經不知道用了幾次了請教部長有聽到您數次到行政院開會向院長溝通這個基金的內容但是呢已經新聞也發佈了各式各樣的總統、院長、您都說了"},{"start":8309.474,"end":8324.267,"text":"但是呢 現在計畫內容卻一直沒有公佈 看得到吃不到 這跟詐騙集團說那個什麼存錢利息 看得到領不到 這根本就是一樣啊 不要做這種示範 到底現在這個計畫內容為什麼還沒公佈啊 進度到底怎麼樣 可不可以分享一下"},{"start":8328.598,"end":8328.938,"text":"預計什麼時候會提出?"},{"start":8344.091,"end":8366.13,"text":"細部方案大家都想申請阿想海外圓夢阿喊了這麼久基本上我們在年底前會提出來年底前齁最後提醒一下部長齁其實每一個部會都有這些海外的青年基金希望統整一下不要到時候互相漢革了還是就到時候算不清楚到底我們給青年多少錢到底夠不夠"},{"start":8367.519,"end":8379.949,"text":"同時我也在與您交談的建議當中有提出這個海外的百億基金希望可以參考用Match Fund或者是Quotient Funding用一些其他的一些配比的方法你的10億可以變成20億再用這個希望能夠來持續研議去放大這個效果"},{"start":8384.753,"end":8406.663,"text":"最後本席要跟這個次長葉秉成次長說上一次質詢沒有讓您有機會來親自的說明這個人工智慧學生聯盟的課程作業宣傳我最後留今天非常寶貴的看這個50秒的時間跟趙偉爭取一下是不是可以說明一下我們一起宣傳一下這個TAICA的計畫"},{"start":8409.055,"end":8428.471,"text":"謝謝委員我想就是因為臺灣接下來在產業上面大家都各界公司都是這個AI會很缺人那怎麼樣在接下來這兩三年之內臺灣我們可以先做好準備就全臺灣的很多大學學生想要學這些AI的課程的時候他的修課的量能夠充足所以我想這就是為什麼我們會成立TAICA"},{"start":8428.951,"end":8445.355,"text":"那我們猜考我想這個很多的新的政策上路之前其實就像我們在產業界很多時候會先有一個最小可行性方案先上路那這是過程當中再去檢討說這過程當中有哪些問題然後我們再持續修正所以我們本來一開始這一次就是不是要衝量的"},{"start":8445.775,"end":8446.196,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":8464.011,"end":8464.431,"text":"藝術教育部長"},{"start":8498.036,"end":8498.256,"text":"有請鄭部長"},{"start":8509.571,"end":8525.015,"text":"委員好部長早安其實部長從早上開始質詢到現在很多衛委員都有關心了關於高中發放這個青年服刑通知單這個造成家長恐慌的這個事情那首先我想請教部長這樣的調查是常態性的嗎在過去這個90年他就本來學校就是自動在編組根據這個法案說它是一個常態性它固定都會在這個時間點調查嗎"},{"start":8537.333,"end":8543.215,"text":"部長我是請問您說這個往年我們都會在這個時間點調查嗎?過去的編組都是用紙上作業其實並沒有了解學生的意願這是第一次嗎?"},{"start":8562.056,"end":8568.899,"text":"應該從去年開始我們確定他必須要經過學生或者法定代言同意去年有調查過今年是第二次來做這個調查因為其實中國這幾日有發動維台軍演所以任何的風吹草動呢民眾都非常的關注非常的緊張那尤其你在這個時間點發放青年服勤通知單上面又寫的是依據全民防衛動員準備法"},{"start":8587.066,"end":8615.844,"text":"所以家長都非常的恐慌就是說到底是什麼樣的這到底是一個什麼樣的狀況那當然教育部這邊你們也說明了所以青年服勤的範圍跟內容是主要是協助各地方政府避難引導社會社區關懷公共服務等等而且是排除警警單位的勤務那在學校的教育階段希望能夠完成說關於教育訓練的演習包括災難發生的時候可以有發揮校園安全及自救跟救人"},{"start":8616.124,"end":8616.204,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8635.285,"end":8635.505,"text":"部長你理解嗎?"},{"start":8652.922,"end":8656.385,"text":"這我完全同意我想謝謝委員的提醒怎麼樣讓這一個許多政策或者調查就真正的能夠達到目的而且能夠讓家長社會大眾知道不需要造成額外的不必要的困擾我想這我們會內部來檢討改進"},{"start":8672.278,"end":8672.799,"text":"根據最近美國14個州經過兩年多的調查指出"},{"start":8687.978,"end":8690.542,"text":"抖音故意將短影音平台設計成容易讓兒少成癮並且明知道對兒少會造成有害影響卻刻意的限制防護的這個措施來維持他們這個平台的流量那調查的文件也顯示說"},{"start":8703.641,"end":8726.719,"text":"新用戶只要觀看260個短影音就會形成一個習慣會去觀看的習慣那以每個影片最短8秒來計算其實只要新用戶只要觀看不到35分鐘他就會有對這個平台產生習慣跟依賴的這個心理那抖音內部他們自己的文件也承認說平台設計有許多功能是要誘使而上用戶持續的來觀看這些抖音的內容"},{"start":8729.461,"end":8753.104,"text":"讓兒少不停的就是想要打開抖音的這個衝動他隨時要關注說有沒有新的更新他有沒有措施了他有這樣的焦慮一直想要去看抖音那這個對我們的兒少心理會產生很多負面的影響那使我們的兒少他會缺少深度對話的能力缺少同理心增加焦慮感對長時間內容會缺乏耐心這些都會對學習有很大的不良的影響"},{"start":8754.045,"end":8781.242,"text":"那本席在今年的3月19總質詢的時候有問過關於這個短影音的成癮的問題我也建議教育部應該要正視這個問題並對這些造成負面影響的這些短影音我們必須要有一個措施來防範那我現在要追蹤我要請問部長我們現在有沒有對這些兒照來使用短影音這些使用習慣我們做一個調查做一個分析來瞭解兒照使用短影音的狀況"},{"start":8783.292,"end":8807.718,"text":"跟委員報告我們當然這個後端是可以理解的但是怎麼樣讓這些短影音這個能夠減少對這個兒少的一些負面的影響包括網路的一個成癮我想這我們完全同意這個委員所關心的而且我們在學術的網路已經也把這個短影音的這個平台這個抖音也做了一個這個隔離"},{"start":8810.904,"end":8828.645,"text":"部長我現在我要問的是說你們有什麼防範的措施而且我們如何去教育我們的孩子去拒絕或去判斷這個短影音我們如何去自己有這樣子的警覺就是不要去沉迷你們有怎樣的方式有什麼措施"},{"start":8829.758,"end":8846.454,"text":"我講我們會跟家長來加強宣想包括我們地線上中小學地方的一起來合作那另外也跟委員報告我們確實內部也開始在檢討像這些短語音或者這些智慧手機怎麼樣能夠在"},{"start":8847.735,"end":8850.558,"text":"部長,這樣子您的回答我有了解到說其實你們現在對這個部分你們還沒有一個很正式的一些規劃"},{"start":8865.071,"end":8867.673,"text":"我請教育部這邊你三個月之內提供具體的措施給我的辦公室"},{"start":8893.729,"end":8893.769,"text":"公務員報告"},{"start":8913.92,"end":8915.222,"text":"不要說也許是一定而且要儘速好嗎好"},{"start":8929.861,"end":8949.517,"text":"那接下來跟部長您討論關於AI人才培育那目前有新聞報導指出就是我們大專校院的AI聯盟修課意願不高那總共開放有5300個名額給聯盟的25所學校的學生來選修那實際選修的人數是只有一半甚至報導說有一門課是45個名額就只要兩個人來選修那這個部分部長您有什麼看法"},{"start":8957.143,"end":8982.53,"text":"好,請次長報告委員,這個是媒體的報導,其實不勝公允,因為其實有十幾家學校其實休課非常非常踴躍,這只是部分的學校,他有一些學校因為他比較晚開學,他跟其他的學校的開學時間比較不一樣,所以他們的學校,本來這個只有少數的學校是人數比較少,大多數學校其實非常踴躍,所以我們休課人數現在已經超過2500多,"},{"start":8983.51,"end":9008.679,"text":"所以市長您對這個選修的這樣子的踴躍度您是覺得滿意的而且我剛才在另外跟國委員回應的時候也提到類似的事情說本來我們這個模式這個政策出去不是一開始就是浩大喜功一開始要衝多少人我們這個是在逐步提升能夠支持的選AI課程的這個修課人數的量能所以本來我們這一次就是沒有要去衝人數的"},{"start":9009.779,"end":9025.8,"text":"現在次長,那麼對於剛剛次長你講到就是說有的學校他開課的時間可能太晚了,直至他想要選修的學生他跟原來他必修的課程可能會衝堂,或者說他因為開課的時間不一定,讓學生沒有辦法及時的,他本來想要去修習這樣的課程的。"},{"start":9026.561,"end":9026.961,"text":"次長您的意思是說你們已經有這樣的措施可以來應應而且可以調整"},{"start":9043.078,"end":9048.42,"text":"那好我再請教喔根據新聞指出呢有的私校為了鼓勵學生修習AI聯盟的課程祭出了修習一門課可以獲得一萬獎金取得教育部認證的證書再獲得十萬的獎勵金你們有聽到這樣的消息嗎有學校他在鼓勵學生就是這個學校是龍華科大那他們覺得說要鼓勵學生有信心跟台青教程的學生一起修但是次長您覺得這樣子合適嗎"},{"start":9068.105,"end":9075.768,"text":"這個是學校自己獎勵學生的措施這沒有什麼合適不合適的因為其實發獎勵金對私下來講他說是要誘因就是鼓勵學生來修習AI的課程但是也有教育團體會認為說你用巨額的獎金來鼓勵學生來修習那不是出於他真正的興趣或者說今天有獎金的時候我去修習這個課程沒有獎金我就不去了這樣子對我們人才培育也不是一個"},{"start":9091.474,"end":9093.416,"text":"我覺得學校發放獎學金這是學校的權利"},{"start":9121.496,"end":9126.861,"text":"好謝謝次長您的回答我再接一分鐘那我想請教一下我部長關於我們現在其實很多人在討論所謂的SEL邊路課綱那SEL是社會情緒的學習那許多國家都已經有訂定了SEL的課綱目的就是希望提升"},{"start":9141.474,"end":9156.665,"text":"年輕學子自我效能及心理的韌性讓我們的兒童青少年在建立正確的社交情緒來因應各種的形態的一些刺激網路霸凌或者說他能夠做好自己的情緒管理有助於學習的提升跟工作表現那部長您覺得說我們可不可以把這個部分"},{"start":9159.767,"end":9160.187,"text":"因為時間已經超過了"},{"start":9186.247,"end":9192.815,"text":"部長請後續再跟書面回覆或者是跟陳秀寶委員辦公室報告好嗎?謝謝主席那部長這個部分關於SEL這個部分您再給我一份書面報告謝謝那部長請回喔謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":9762.093,"end":9762.599,"text":"還沒有 還有43名"},{"start":9816.837,"end":9818.178,"text":"郭婷筠委員"},{"start":9839.141,"end":9854.681,"text":"委員好部長早安在這裡其實在進入我今天的質詢之前我先回應一下剛剛我坐在那邊我聽到的就是關於這個青年基本法基金的這個部分其實我們部長有到我的辦公室特別要跟我講說這個要撤案嗎"},{"start":9858.02,"end":9876.116,"text":"應該沒有吧?因為我其實我們的記憶應該都還蠻深刻的所以其實我真的不希望這個質詢的部分變成一個造謠大會那我還記得這個今年7月的時候其實關於這個國發基金盈餘的部分其實他們有很多的國民黨的立委"},{"start":9876.596,"end":9876.636,"text":"委員會委員"},{"start":9898.638,"end":9925.484,"text":"公務預算的編列公務預算是隨時可以監督國民黨的立委如果對於公務預算的編列他有任何的疑問他是不是可以在這裡不管質詢他就可以三餐照問問到寶我這樣講有沒有錯是的當時委員確實有一些執政黨委員會撤回是因為擔心這個違反這個財政紀律法所以希望在沒有法源的前提就暫不考慮用基金的這樣一個"},{"start":9926.104,"end":9942.578,"text":"對,因為成立基金就是必須要有裁員的一個依據嘛,這就是根據我們的這個財政紀律法的一個部分嘛,所以在這裡我們真的也要稍微講一下啦,因為剛剛其實不是只有質疑部長啊,也質疑我們其他的六位委員啊,啊這個對我們來講其實是非常不公平的一種造謠的行為齁。"},{"start":9944.059,"end":9945.279,"text":"負責任區 桃園半年內有三件事件,包括校園霸凌、籃球隊傳出帶隊老師"},{"start":9963.004,"end":9980.295,"text":"那不管是在這個性評的部分對學生的性騷擾而且這個時間長達了將近10年之久那也跨了很多屆的學生那這件事情爆發之後那校方其實對於這位老師當然也做了一些處置那也記了申誡但是這個老師繼續還是可以帶隊那引起很多家長的恐慌跟不滿那我不曉得這個部分這個部長這邊有沒有掌握這個教育局到底是鬆掉地方"},{"start":9991.081,"end":10011.107,"text":"政府的教育局是鬆掉了呢還是他完全看不到我想這有關這個地方這本這個地方這一個教育局處他應該要當為而如果沒有作為我想我們教育部會給以這一個事後了解我們會再敦請他們這一個一定要給以改善是"},{"start":10011.787,"end":10025.532,"text":"另外還有一件事情,這個也是在上個月也接獲校方的一個通報,就是有投訴的民眾就在講說他的弟弟在國中的時候,其實他們是在上理化課的時候,那因為"},{"start":10030.693,"end":10053.78,"text":"當眾就被老師要求脫褲子穿褲子然後再來就是可能也被老師摸了手摸了他的腿部的部分喔那也特別就是在全班的面前有這樣子的一個動作甚至用言語上的討侃喔你穿的是什麼牌子的這個束褲喔很好看來來繼續再穿再脫這樣子那當然這件事情其實也引發了許多這個很多的"},{"start":10054.68,"end":10055.801,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀列席報告"},{"start":10069.722,"end":10092.519,"text":"跟委員報告我們確實對這些老師有一些不當的一些教學管教的一個行為我們會嚴正的要求地方教育局處要這個這個依法要以懲處或者糾正改善那如果教育地方教育局處不做我們事實上現在可以把進度先告訴我嗎地方這個教育補助款裡邊我們會有一些事實的反映"},{"start":10097.523,"end":10099.044,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們這個會後在下班前會把這個這個地方疾處他們的這個所有的處理的最近的一個這個結果跟委員報告"},{"start":10125.134,"end":10137.17,"text":"另外,我們講到長期許多學生,尤其是青少年朋友在國中或者是高中他們可能會受到一些言語上的霸凌也好,或者是肢體上的霸凌也好"},{"start":10139.249,"end":10152.204,"text":"在霸凌自傷自殺的案件下其實我們很少去討論到被忽略的這一群這一群面對的是誰呢就是我們講的學校的校護人員學校的校護人員其實他們"},{"start":10155.567,"end":10183.372,"text":"在我們的教育部主管這個各級學校的緊急傷病處理的準則當中其實我們看到這個消護人員其實他們要去處理的事件包含學生在傷病的一個狀況他們是第一線的這個學校的緊急的救護人員那我們可以發現這個學校孩子自傷自殺他們其實發生蠻高的一個比例就是在學校"},{"start":10184.472,"end":10191.778,"text":"那我想校戶的工作是非常非常的繁重那根據這個中華民國學校護理人員協定會的一個統計他們也做過這樣子的一個調查講到學校校戶的業務工作跟他們認為沒有辦法做到的比例我們先來看一下第三點跟第六點照理來講校戶我們對於校戶的工作職權的認為認知是應該他們先處理比方說"},{"start":10212.936,"end":10237.17,"text":"疾病個案的管理就是碰到傷病的時候我第一線就要先去處理在其他的老師以及校護的這個處理之下那怎麼樣來做這個校外的這個就醫的通報等等那第二個我們看到第三點還有就是健康問題的管理跟追蹤這個我們都是平常認為說這個是校護比較容易能夠第一線來做處理的這是他們的專業"},{"start":10238.271,"end":10239.332,"text":"第二點 健康評估"},{"start":10258.393,"end":10258.613,"text":"學校衛生管理法"},{"start":10273.883,"end":10290.221,"text":"從人員的配置上40班以下應該要配一戶的校護人員40班以上再增加第二位校護人員這個管理法從91年到現在校護人員的比例的設置"},{"start":10290.962,"end":10319.567,"text":"已經將近快要有20年以上沒有在做修正了但是我們收到有很多的消護人員跟我們反映對他們來講能夠提前趕快退休就退休因為他們面臨的不是只有處理傷病他們面臨還有很大的心理的壓力跟行政的工作那這個部分我不曉得部長知不知道消護人員很少人提到他們但我們要在這裡還是要為他們先講一下話"},{"start":10321.328,"end":10322.109,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心"},{"start":10351.188,"end":10354.671,"text":"社區裡邊的這些醫院跟相關的一些醫療機構能夠有一個整體的條本包括資源的我們怎麼樣盡速的能夠給很多的校護人員他們至少不孤單啊要給他們基本上的支持啊這我們會來檢討來看怎麼樣來在制度上來做一些的研究是"},{"start":10380.451,"end":10381.452,"text":"昨天我們也特別開了座談會即便在上個會期"},{"start":10397.105,"end":10397.305,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10418.229,"end":10444.077,"text":"這5%、10%要往上加幾乎是看得到吃不到而且因為有些地方政府他們也在縮減這些特教助理員他們的工作的一個時數所以在這個地方其實真的就有落差再來第二個問題就是說特教助理員又分為特教學生助理員跟特教教師助理員但是他們都是共同在學校一樣一模一樣的一個場域上工作"},{"start":10444.617,"end":10458.603,"text":"那我們看到這個特教學生助理員從今年的8月份已經開始有調整了很好但是問題是特教教師助理員目前為止在同一個場域工作他們沒有被調整會不會有相對被剝奪感"},{"start":10459.873,"end":10472.078,"text":"這一個跟委員報告也感謝委員的關心我們確實也針對這一個教室助理員在內部在修改相關的一個規定我們希望能夠給予適時的調整這一個所以現在已經在研擬了是不是嗎那什麼時候可以在今年嗎可以在今年嗎因為一個在8月一個真的目前遙遙無期而且我們這個通過以後會回溯到8月1號生效"},{"start":10481.641,"end":10500.715,"text":"好,太好了,那我得到了一個答案我們也給很多的這個特教助理員他們真的在學校在工作在幫助這些學生還有幫助老師的同時給他們更多的支持,實質的支持跟鼓勵好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,部長請回,謝謝郭育晴委員的質詢我們再請林益錦委員謝謝主席,有請曾部長有請部長"},{"start":10516.055,"end":10526.941,"text":"委員好部長好首先本席要來跟您討論一下本土教學現場的困境上個會期最後一次教育部的質詢的時候本席那時候有向張亮次長來追詢那時候有跟他提到說其實新生一開始進學校的時候"},{"start":10536.946,"end":10537.106,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10553.792,"end":10553.912,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10569.189,"end":10594.261,"text":"會變成說有些家庭他根本不是新住民的家庭可是他的孩子可能家長認為他的孩子可以去學一個越南語啊或者泰語啊把他當作好像是才藝課在學習那可是他或許他自己的本土語或許是台語或許是客家語或者是新住民語不管反正他會把另外再修個越南語或泰語類似這樣會轉換他的所謂的這個"},{"start":10597.362,"end":10620.102,"text":"學習的語言那這樣子換語別的話當然我們會覺得學習效果是會打折啦那我為什麼會提這個問題那上次張亮次長的回答是說因為台灣就是一個多樣性的社會那所以教育部是希望說引起學生的學習興趣然後如果有興趣之後然後他會再深入去學習那可是我當然認同這樣的觀點可是現行的這個教學現場的狀況"},{"start":10623.305,"end":10623.645,"text":"新住民跟或者這個"},{"start":10643.969,"end":10644.289,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10666.645,"end":10679.932,"text":"國小老師提到說有些學校甚至是違規使用原本不能上不定課程的這種彈性課程時間去上那個本土語那或者拿原本拿生活課的時間去上本土語等等"},{"start":10680.993,"end":10704.44,"text":"那面對這種狀況那我們本辦也有接受到很多學校的這種教學組長的這個抱怨就說近期而且近期很多新聞媒體也在追蹤這個議題那我想要跟您探討的是說這是確確實實在學校現場發生的那我們在尊重孩子學習的權益的同時我覺得我們要兼顧到學校老師的這種行政負擔那所以"},{"start":10705.78,"end":10725.563,"text":"當然我清楚了教育部都說要請老師多擔待一些可是老師如果負擔越重其實越沒有人願意來接行政那更會有越少人來投入教職所以請教部長是說在今年度的新學期教育部有沒有盤點就是說我們到底有多少學校"},{"start":10726.624,"end":10747.839,"text":"學期已經開始了還找不到本土語或者手語或新著名語的老師這是第一點那第二個有沒有去盤點使用晨光時間或者午休時間的學校比例到底有多少那有沒有掌握有哪些學校甚至用違規使用這個所謂的校定課程時間去上本土語的或者是"},{"start":10749.74,"end":10750.401,"text":"委員長鄭英耀列席"},{"start":10764.519,"end":10775.085,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個本土語言的一個學習確實本土語言任何一項語言的學習都必須要是長時間的一個學習跟長時間的投入他才能夠從這個陌生到這個申書到這個經手"},{"start":10781.548,"end":10795.604,"text":"我們事實上是各縣市的各種議員我們事實上是有調查的但是以目前來講我們並沒有獲得這一學期並沒有獲得到有一些各縣市的一些通報像委員剛才所提的這些的現象"},{"start":10796.565,"end":10805.652,"text":"委員會後能夠把這些信息給我?因為確實有一些學校沒有本土語言的這個施施我們陳委員剛才也非常熟悉我們有600位的更專業的這些施施透過線上的一個共學直接給提供學校來這個彌補這個沒有這個本土教師的這個部分的教學希望不會影響那但是"},{"start":10823.587,"end":10841.434,"text":"委員剛才所提的這些時間大不起來他就沒辦法開課目前比較這個地方的末端的這個也謝謝委員能夠讓我們知道我想我們會跟地方政府地方縣市教育局來看瞭解看怎麼樣提供協助"},{"start":10841.954,"end":10845.395,"text":"國民中小學教學資源工作人員聘任辦法的修正草案把本土語跟手語等這種特定科目的教學資源工作人員的稱呼改為老師本來是稱呼為教學資源"},{"start":10869.926,"end":10870.407,"text":"民政部長鄭英耀列"},{"start":10884.923,"end":10889.327,"text":"部長,另外,我還要請你回答說那你認為整體的本土語跟手語跟原住民語的教學制度到底還有哪些可以精進的地方?部長"},{"start":10909.52,"end":10934.428,"text":"這一個用人言改為教師這個基本上我們下個禮拜大概就可以因為他通過這個教育部的部會報以後這一個決議以後那我們就會發布包括我們整體的本土語我們的手語跟原住民語這個的教學制度你覺得還有哪些可以精進的"},{"start":10935.248,"end":10947.698,"text":"我想對基本上這些用老師來稱呼這些所有的這是最起碼的一個尊重而且他們也是專業的教育工作者我想陳老師是非常符合的我們會一併來全體來看"},{"start":10950.663,"end":10970.888,"text":"那我想接著跟您探討一下這個運動部的期程當然很開心本席長期關心的就是一個運動專責的部門終於要來這個走到最後一里路了那我想我當然希望運動部要趕快成立可是欲速也則不達我們過程有千千萬萬"},{"start":10972.188,"end":10996.92,"text":"不能因為說趕時間就草率喔那所以諮詢小組在上個月初才召開第一次會議那到現在開了三次會議那我想考量到收集意見跟修改草案的需求也要有一段時間來作業所以我要請教說到底明年真的能上路嗎?能正式掛牌嗎?而且有信心讓這個運動部的基本的這個運作事務能順利確實進入軌道"},{"start":10999.128,"end":11009.721,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們現在是朝那一個方向在努力然後三次的一個知情委員會也有一個形成一個共識就是希望用運動部的一個全新的名稱然後也能夠對全民運動對這個"},{"start":11018.05,"end":11042.912,"text":"全民的競技型運動包含這個運動產業有一個更積極的一些支持的一個政策上的一個支持的力道所以我們昨天也已經把這個整個運動部的組織法報行政院行政院明天如果業務會通過的話我想體育署也會有一個公開的一些針對這個做一個說明"},{"start":11044.993,"end":11045.013,"text":"運動部"},{"start":11059.69,"end":11081.237,"text":"那我想跟您探討的是說我們這屆奧運其實拿下了還蠻亮眼的成績那帕運也拿下五面獎牌那我想之前本席有爭取到就是說我們國訓中心的這個處訓選手的日常零用金也有調升可是我注意到說我們性性障礙的選手的成就加急"},{"start":11082.658,"end":11101.639,"text":"還有與非身心障礙的選手有一些落差就是說以奧運跟帕運來說奧運第一名的選手可以拿到兩萬塊的成就加給可是帕運第一名的選手只有一萬五千塊那我不曉得這個落差的考量在哪裡那有沒有機會可以調整"},{"start":11102.299,"end":11128.079,"text":"跟委員報告確實當時的一個考量是因為奧運的所有參選的國家是多的然後他的所有的一些選手這比較競技性的這些運動選手確實都是比較多的所以怕硬所以在這個部分有一些差別但我想體育署內部也已經在討論針對這些看怎麼樣有一個更適當的一些成就佳績"},{"start":11128.86,"end":11155.805,"text":"好 那簡單30秒就是說 技職教育剛剛有一些委員來催詢那我想技職教育的問題除了我們現在有推出新的方案就是所謂的3加2這個五專模式的方案那我想要請教一下我們現在這個學年開始推動那到底有多少學校已經開始使用這個模式那學生參與了嗎或者說有多少學校願意來採用這個方案"},{"start":11156.565,"end":11173.579,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們現在已經把這一個整個計畫這一個送給這個各基專院校甚至大學然後希望這一個能夠很快的明年就能夠上路114年就可以上路是明年要上路是"},{"start":11174.699,"end":11175.139,"text":"有請部長有請部長"},{"start":11207.95,"end":11231.378,"text":"委員好部長好就是說其實因為昨天剛剛其實有非常多委員也關心我們在講這個暫時青年服務情同意書的這件事情嘛那其實我昨天也在這兩群組裡面看到了很多的騷動但是我自己我在看這件事情的時候呢因為其實我非常喜歡讀經濟學人那其實他今年一整年幾乎都在講一件事情就是歐盟的軍購支出是不是有從"},{"start":11232.558,"end":11250.012,"text":"本來的GDP裡面應該是要從3%調到5%今年其實一直不停的談這件事情因為俄烏戰爭之後大家在思考說歐盟現在原本的戰備支出是不是太少了是不是應該要更多讓國家有更好的自我的防衛的能力那我也知道說愛沙尼亞其實有相關的全民防衛課程"},{"start":11251.913,"end":11278.586,"text":"我自己在想其實台灣的一個特殊地位是我們的學生應該不是只專注於讀書這件事情只專注於課業這件事情應該其實也要了解當前的國家局勢那民國94年2月2號我們其實通過了一個全民國防教育法並且將它融入在108課綱裡面為了增進學生對於台灣的認識特別納入了國家與安全生活救災防災總動員以及反恐等任務"},{"start":11279.326,"end":11279.587,"text":"公文報告確實"},{"start":11295.07,"end":11317.111,"text":"這都是在人才培育裡面必須要必須要的一個措施全民國防國家自己的國家自己來守護我想這是基本每一個國家的這個國民基本的應該的責任跟態度好那我就想要了解在第二個問題就是說我們在發放這件事情是不是有跟各縣市政府做一個清楚的說明"},{"start":11318.277,"end":11333.368,"text":"我講這一個因為過去這一個我們依據的這一個法令確實也已經超過20年過去就是授權各學校各高中時學校他自行編組那這一次呢看起來部裡邊更善意的希望說18歲當然"},{"start":11335.229,"end":11335.409,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11353.783,"end":11354.003,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":11372.553,"end":11400.543,"text":"世界局勢一直在變化像我們也關心AI我們關心各種東西就是希望我們的孩子可以更有競爭力未來可以跟世界上面的其他的國家的學生一起來競爭所以我想了解世界局勢也是非常重要的而且你知道嗎其實在美國他們有一系列書叫做十歲開始學政治學理財那這邊告訴你說挑起戰爭有正當理由嗎什麼叫做威權統治各項的議題其實都在這個書裡面從十歲開始學習所以我覺得這部分我們可能也是要來跟"},{"start":11401.323,"end":11416.557,"text":"全民一起來溝通這其實是一個世界趨勢啦好不好那接下來進入今天質詢的主題那其實就是說我非常關注於我們的這個黃金計劃嘛那我們黃金計劃其實裡面的目標是有說要"},{"start":11417.097,"end":11417.237,"text":"二、審查11案"},{"start":11435.992,"end":11464.273,"text":"華倫溜冰不是屬於真金奪牌應該這樣講但是華倫溜冰田徑游泳其實在亞運的表現也是不錯所以我們是不是可以針對亞運有一個菁英培訓計畫呢跟委員報告這亞運的菁英培育計畫事實上是有的目前是有包含到這麼多項目都有嗎那非常好那之後我們可以再來討論一下這詳細的內容好不好也可以提供詳細的內容到我們辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":11465.473,"end":11482.643,"text":"可以嗎?可以把詳細的亞運的經營培訓計畫請一個署長做補充說明有關亞運的一個培訓來講的話是針對亞運的項目都會有給他們一個培訓的計畫現在已經在進行當中現在已經進行當中那可不可以把相關的計畫我們可以約個時間來討論好不好"},{"start":11484.464,"end":11484.605,"text":"運動部部長"},{"start":11505.12,"end":11520.643,"text":"等下喔,他不回去抱歉時間可以暫停一下嗎?好,可以。好,那就是說我們其實也這幾年其實我們,不要說這幾年啦,光這一年其實就有非常多協會的一些爭議齁,那民間其實對於協會的一些制度改革上面也時常有一些聲音。"},{"start":11521.644,"end":11521.884,"text":"信憑案件"},{"start":11540.486,"end":11540.706,"text":"而且委員．"},{"start":11579.247,"end":11593.352,"text":"我想因為我們人數其實因為過去人手不足啦但是成為一個部之後我們的人力應該相對是充足的因為其實坦白說雖然教練是有回訓制度但是多少人回訓現在是沒有掌握的那再來就是說到底有多少的性平制度"},{"start":11593.592,"end":11619.999,"text":"有一個更詳細的跟委員做補充說明好謝謝那我們約時間來詳細做補充說明好了好不好因為時間不太夠那再來就是說齁頭槌禁令啦我想問一下齁因為其實是現在英格蘭跟蘇格蘭還有愛爾蘭甚至美國齁其實他們都有提出一個相關的叫做頂頭槌指引就是限制我們的年輕球員來學訓練欸奇怪對不起我回到上一頁齁我好像跑掉了跑不出來喔可以好謝謝幫我按一下"},{"start":11623.72,"end":11653.247,"text":"可以請部長跟署長看一下這個頭槌它是用這是一分鐘以內就出現了兩次頭槌那這部分我們去年就已經有發文要求去做限制那這部分我們會再來了解抱歉因為署長我知道因為之前你有跟我講可是因為你知道我常常出現在足球賽場上所以我大概可以一場比賽我大概可以看到十次以上的頂頭槌那頂頭槌這個我們到底可不可以使用我覺得我們還是要有一個台灣自己的版本"},{"start":11653.507,"end":11679.77,"text":"因為在國外已經有太多的研究證明他其實傷害腦部的發育會讓孩子未來可能會出現認知的障礙然後甚至也比他們可能頭垂的頸頭部的傷害也是非常嚴重的所以其實相關的國家都已經有一些指引了台灣應該也要有自己的指引來保護我們的孩子免於運動傷害所以我們到底是可以練習的時候使用但是不能比賽還是都不可以我覺得這個需要一個明確的指引來給我們的教練"},{"start":11680.811,"end":11681.372,"text":"謝謝委員我們一定會把這個辦法定出來"},{"start":11696.194,"end":11721.645,"text":"這一個嚴格的來希望各地方政府跟地方的這些這些教練能夠遵守因為確實幼兒的這個健康的發展在12歲以下裡面他洗多的腦部還確實還沒有一個非常充分的包括裁判的一個訓練我想我們都會都會來我想就是說到底因為世界上面有不同的聲音啦有人覺得是完全都不可以練有人覺得是可以練但是要正確的練習"},{"start":11722.805,"end":11745.124,"text":"所以我覺得台灣要有自己的標準那我覺得我們是不是可以邀請相關的專家來可能可以參考日本啦美國啊說是這個紐澳啊英國隨便我覺得是我們可以召集一個相關的專家學者會議來討論這件事情嗎可以嗎那我們大概什麼時候可以請體育署來做這一個把標準定出來那我們預計什麼時候可以完成這個指引呢我們可以抓個時間點嗎"},{"start":11747.93,"end":11767.419,"text":"包括委員這個如果要定出一個指引我覺得半年可能需要但是我們在兩個月之內我們就會至少會有一個初步的規劃出來兩個月之內的包括裁判的部分就應該關心的裁判的部分的執法這個是我們馬上就可以要求但是至於訓練的部分我覺得需要一個時間去做相關的一個研究"},{"start":11768.259,"end":11789.612,"text":"我應該這樣講我的立場是說如果你要不要裁判執行或是到底要怎麼樣子的依序我覺得是你們可以跟專家來討論之後怎樣對台灣的孩子保障是最好的重點就是孩子的不能夠運動的時候在這麼小就造成了一身的傷害那最後因為時間有點不太夠了我想就跟"},{"start":11790.552,"end":11791.753,"text":"部長,您對於實驗教育及體制教育的看法是什麼?"},{"start":11806.792,"end":11823.303,"text":"我認為政府當然對這個國民教育裡面供給量、延待需求量我們應該鼓勵這個更多另類的這個學校的一個型態實驗教育應該被鼓舞能夠讓更多的小孩子能夠受益"},{"start":11824.043,"end":11824.063,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11852.744,"end":11860.709,"text":"部長請回,謝謝張雅玲委員,謝謝你的時間控制再來我們請黃珊珊委員,4分鐘有請部長"},{"start":11876.55,"end":11902.872,"text":"委員好是我想這個在教育界最近有一個新的判決其實蠻傷心的就是上一次有關戈井案的部分男孩子判了9年女孩子判了8年這是一個悲劇但是這些孩子在他的成長過程中可能有很多的問題我們在學校沒有發現或者是家庭也沒有辦法及時的處理才會造成這麼大的悲劇所以部長"},{"start":11904.113,"end":11920.856,"text":"我想站在教育主管機關的立場那現在我們可能孩子會接受到各種不同的資訊包括電視節目包括網站那目前為止法令面的管制或者是對於孩子們接觸這些相關的資訊我們覺得我們管制的好或不好"},{"start":11922.83,"end":11940.568,"text":"我想確實現在越來越多的一些研究證據認為這個智慧型手機和短影音對青少年跟幼兒會帶來這個許多情緒負面的一些發展跟影響所以部長我今天要講的是我們在電視節目分級有處理辦法"},{"start":11941.849,"end":11970.402,"text":"但是我們在所謂的APP網路智慧社群網站或者是透過現在所有的這些社群軟體的演算法他會給他們各種不同相關的資訊不斷的推播在2022年的華爾街日報做了很清楚的研究你用機器人上去搜尋跟你搜尋到什麼他就推播給你什麼你停留在賭博網站他就一直推播賭博的資料給你你停留在"},{"start":11971.582,"end":11973.163,"text":"所以部長我們如果假設我都知道問題是所在"},{"start":11991.539,"end":12003.312,"text":"那在教育現場或者是說在我們校園裡面能夠做的對於影響周邊學生學習的這些相關的APP我們有沒有可能做一些了解跟做一些管制?"},{"start":12005.12,"end":12026.529,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個兒童跟青少年所有的年輕朋友的一個發展因為這個演算法已經超出我們的控制了原來是一個商業模式但是因為這樣的一個演算法確實它就會誠如委員剛才所提的這些的問題它就不斷的在對特定的一些而且重複再重複防護的"},{"start":12027.95,"end":12028.37,"text":"其實有些家長隔離的功能"},{"start":12053.672,"end":12057.958,"text":"委員長我只有一個要求根據這些你已經知道的狀況我們怎麼樣對於學生現在至少他所攜帶的電子設備當然學校有可能上課的時間會收起來"},{"start":12070.715,"end":12098.245,"text":"但是這種APP我們是不是訂出一些使用的指引比如說哪一些原則可以給家長一些指引哪一些APP我們可以在某個程度讓他做一些家長可以監控像我的朋友他就13歲的女兒每天只能用兩小時紙上的網站都會被限制但是一樣要回到跟家長一起共同來做一些管控否則你在學校管了回家不管其實還是一樣"},{"start":12099.352,"end":12099.672,"text":"謝謝委員的建議,我想那個我們應該來做的"},{"start":12123.48,"end":12147.36,"text":"會後我們會積極來把跟家長的一些提醒﹖我覺得至少開始做我們沒有要限制所謂的自由但是我們限制部分的功能甚至部分的相關的時間至少讓家長或老師都瞭解這個孩子他可能受到的風險一個月給我一個簡單的書面報告你們要做的方向跟未來可能採取的做法好嗎?謝謝部長"},{"start":12151.143,"end":12155.827,"text":"部長請回謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢再來我們請吳佩儀委員質詢謝謝主席我請教育部部長請部長"},{"start":12172.369,"end":12193.623,"text":"委員好部長好我知道我們總統院長包括部長您我們都非常的來關心台灣的新興運動發展尤其我們最近已經緊鑼密鼓的在準備籌備而且已經幾乎要走之後一里路的也就是我們要成立新的體育部那今天要跟部長討論的是其中部長署長也知道我一直很關心台灣的街舞霹靂舞的運動發展尤其是我們台灣的霹靂舞"},{"start":12202.088,"end":12219.7,"text":"最近我跟民間有一些座談大家是非常自豪的是我們臺灣P05其實是叫做世界的強國臺灣人非常有才華我們在很多項目在世界都是幾進前幾名的那P05已經也成為臺灣的優勢項目像我們的選手孫政不只是達到了奧運前16強"},{"start":12227.605,"end":12231.088,"text":"他緊接著奧運比賽完沒有回來休息緊接著到歐洲參加幾個指標性的賽事相繼得到了亞軍冠軍所以我認為我們不只是說我們要協助民間的霹靂舞者而是這些舞者是我們台灣最好的外交大使"},{"start":12247.461,"end":12254.664,"text":"同時也是我們臺灣最好的優勢我們已經是霹靂舞的強國了所以接下來問題就是說那請問我們政府要怎麼樣來協助那最近我在學會期間舉辦了一場一個新興運動發展的座談會感謝我們次長跟署長都列席來聽聽民間的意見其中我們北市大的蘇志朋教授因為他也是我們五種以及霹靂舞委員會的委員他給了一個建議我覺得相當的好他說我們不"},{"start":12276.633,"end":12304.826,"text":"不應該只舉辦賽事因為現在台灣民間其實已經很多國際賽事了我們應當去參考例如說像荷蘭他們是把街舞的比賽當成一個國際型的節慶街舞節在舉辦所以它同時有國際交流同時也帶來觀光價值舉例來說像荷蘭有舉辦Summer Dance Forever這個一半就是七天的活動裡面有賽事有座談有工作坊"},{"start":12305.586,"end":12330.009,"text":"等等相關綜合性的活動也就是說這7天的時間全世界最強的舞者或是在努力學習當中未來的潛力新興的舞者都聚集到這個國家這個城市我覺得這也是我們未來很好一個參考的模式那我不知道說在我們目前所規劃的體育部即將成立的新的體育部當中對新興運動我們目前有什麼樣的規劃"},{"start":12331.531,"end":12342.98,"text":"謝謝委員關心,確實這個街舞都令人興奮的,其實台灣我們看到任何許多公開的場域,我們都會看到年輕人在練習街舞。"},{"start":12344.52,"end":12371.691,"text":"未來的運動這個運動部我們確實在全民運動署裡邊有一個這個新興運動的一個組那在這一個部分我想委員提供了非常好的許多的這些有價值的一些信息我相信這個運動部的成立本來就是希望能夠有更多的全民運動包括這些新興的運動項目能夠去支持年輕人讓他們所有的興趣"},{"start":12372.731,"end":12379.719,"text":"他們的投入能夠世界看得到而且能夠跟全民運動當中的新興運動就是我們將會有一個專責的行政單位就是這個窗口就是專門來發展新興運動我覺得這個非常的好"},{"start":12387.708,"end":12387.828,"text":"委員會主管議員"},{"start":12412.305,"end":12415.509,"text":"世界歷史最悠久1992年就開始舉辦的國際賽事Dance Delight我們台灣每一年都是由我們民間團體自己來選訓選手選出台灣代表隊到日本去參賽也已經多年但是因為過去我們的體育署有他組織的限制所以國際交流的說不行不行你們要去找文化部才有辦法補助"},{"start":12434.349,"end":12454.05,"text":"這一個我希望未來啊既然運動部新新的要成立了我們也有新新運動的概念也有全民運動的概念那請你們都應當在行政的辦法當中把它考慮進行是謝謝委員提醒確實我們朝那一個方向甚至剛才委員所提的這些都非常具有這一些產業的價值我們在未來事實上在"},{"start":12454.591,"end":12455.131,"text":"好的,除了賽事活動以外是"},{"start":12469.682,"end":12474.628,"text":"部長、署長一定非常清楚場地是關鍵很多的新興運動上次座談會亞林委員的團隊也在現場例如說像我們的BX找不到根本找不到地方讓孩子練習然後呢像我們有這個皮克球"},{"start":12486.501,"end":12490.544,"text":"這個他是要進羽球場場地打球呢還是進網球場場地打球呢沒有一個專門的告示所以呢每次他們進去光是練習而已都被人家趕出去然後呢像這個有自由潛水的選手平常做一些簡單的練習但是可能民間營運的游泳池他們是禁止這樣子練習的那我自己較熟悉的滑板那就是今天真的要跟部長跟署長還有次長來拜託了"},{"start":12512.998,"end":12519.553,"text":"台灣目前不是只有台北,全台灣都沒有一座國際標準的滑板廠"},{"start":12521.414,"end":12541.733,"text":"就算是沒有標準只是練習場的滑板場呢我們都是手指數的出來的也就是數量嚴重的不足我們隔壁附近的日本這一次奧運滑板冠軍的日本日本國內現在是超過400多個滑板場地所以在場地的總量上我們要加緊"},{"start":12543.171,"end":12563.199,"text":"你有總量你才有辦法做分級分流有些是玩家性質有些是娛樂性質有些是學習性質的以不同的年齡有不同是同色的場地但總量一定要加強但在這邊我能不能夠拜託部長可以承諾明年我們能不能夠來啟動全台灣第一座國際標準規格的滑板場"},{"start":12564.259,"end":12587.451,"text":"開始來啟動開始編預算開始找場地我相信只要我們有心你要去跟地方政府溝通協調中央我們預算編下去我們一定可以做得到能不能來承諾謝謝委員提醒事實上跟委員報告我們已經在公建計畫提這樣的一個我們已經有提案了是是是而且這個行這個審查程序我們就馬上就可以著手來做"},{"start":12588.211,"end":12601.58,"text":"好的那最重要就是需要場地嘛是就是場地場地要落腳在哪一個縣市政府呢要趕快開始進行溝通那就需要我們都非常樂意幫忙好不好謝謝委員好那署長請回喔接下來想要請問部長的呢是賴清德總統非常關心的百億青年海外圓夢基金我看了我們今年的預算非常的興奮為什麼因為呢青發署今年的預算今年度啊總共你們可以用的是7.4億嘛對不對"},{"start":12617.071,"end":12617.512,"text":"你們現在送進來要審的明年我們本來預計預算要編到多少?"},{"start":12622.435,"end":12630.061,"text":"19億19億我看了真的非常的振奮等於說我們對青發鼠的重視預算的增加是超過兩倍2.5快將近快要三倍其中呢賴清德總統非常重視的國際交流體驗我們是從3億增加到13億這是翻了四倍這就是代表我們政府對青年的學習體驗尤其是海外的圓夢我們非常非常的支持但是除了預算之外"},{"start":12651.658,"end":12654.239,"text":"相關的這個內容目前有什麼樣的規劃跟委員報告我們目前大概有關這個百億青年圓夢這一個部分大概我們現在在進行這一個招標整個辦公室我們會有一個更專業的團體希望能夠來協助這個青年圓夢那順利的情況我們大概就明年初就會正式把這個對外公開徵件那"},{"start":12677.484,"end":12681.848,"text":"主要的一個青年圓夢裡面大概有兩個大方向一個就是來自於這個各中央政府機關裡面他們在許多的這些國際事務或者部會裡面為國家培養一些青年領袖人才另外一個是來自於年輕人"},{"start":12696.041,"end":12700.946,"text":"他們自己提案我們經過有一個專家的一個團體來協助他這個提案然後讓他能夠有夢成這一個好夢成真就是讓他的夢想能夠成真然後到有國外的一些許多的組織國際的組織包括志工包括許多各式各樣的一些"},{"start":12714.319,"end":12730.151,"text":"台灣的年輕人有夢想而且有規劃有計畫我們就來支持他們有實現的機會部長你剛剛講一個非常重要的重點就是我們中央的跨部會其實都有培育青年人才的需求例如我過去非常關心的是藝術與設計領域的菁英海外培訓計畫"},{"start":12733.613,"end":12739.636,"text":"那過往有一些可能是在文化部有一些可能在經濟部比如說工業設計綁在經濟部還不在文化部分屬在各個部會但是他們可能都是我們想要來培養跟支持的青年圓夢所以我希望這個我們到時候因為甄選的辦法都還在討論擬定希望我覺得兩個原則第一個廣泛的來徵詢跟諮詢青年的意見"},{"start":12759.066,"end":12784.92,"text":"因為像我也都不算青年的你們要去遵循真正的青年他們的想法他們需要什麼我們這一個所有的辦法基本上在親師會裡面有討論過也跟我們這個年輕朋友都開過但是草版這個草案出來還要再討論然後領域應該要多元不要特別集中在哪一個包括人文設計影視音藝術等等相關領域我希望都可以讓各個領域的青年只要有夢想"},{"start":12786.161,"end":12794.434,"text":"我們的這個海外青年圓夢計畫就來支持他們,可不可以努力來做。我們確實就是朝那個方向在規劃。好的,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,謝謝主席。"},{"start":12798.707,"end":12812.573,"text":"部長請回謝謝吳佩儀委員時間控制得非常好現在我們早上有宣布在吳佩儀委員質詢完之後我們要先處理解凍案11案還有臨時提案因為今天委員有三案臨時提案現在我們請議事委員一起宣讀"},{"start":12819.298,"end":12826.846,"text":"一、教育部函為行政法人國家運動訓練中心113年度預算決議檢送總支出預算凍結100萬元輸入報告請查詳案二、教育部函為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部決議業務費向下委辦費預算凍結1000萬元輸入報告請查詳案"},{"start":12835.896,"end":12858.024,"text":"三、教育部行會113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部第二目預算凍結2000萬元輸入報告請查照案。四、教育部行會113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部第三目預算凍結100萬元輸入報告請查照案。五、教育部行會113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部第四目向下業務費預算凍結100萬元輸入報告請查照案。"},{"start":12860.405,"end":12882.837,"text":"六、教育部行為113年度中央政府總預算決議．送該部第5目預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查案。七、教育部行為113年度中央政府總預算決議．送該部第6目預算凍結300萬元書面報告請查找案。八、教育部行為103年度中央政府總預算決議．送國民及學前教育署第二目預算凍結1000萬元書面報告請查找案。"},{"start":12884.838,"end":12904.01,"text":"九、教育部罕為113年度中央政府總預算決議．送體育署第一目預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查照案。十、教育部罕為113年度中央政府總預算決議．送體育署第三目預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查照案。十一、教育部罕為113年度中央政府總預算決議．送體育署第三目預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查照案。十一、教育部罕為113年度中央政府總預算決議．送體育署第三目預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查照案。十一、教育部罕為113年度中央政府總預算決"},{"start":12905.711,"end":12925.693,"text":"檢訊國家教育研究院第二目預算凍結10萬元書面報告請查照案。．時提案第一案．有鑑於在本次山土耳颱風對南台灣高屏地區之侵襲．但發生有偏鄉地區學校因災損害斷水斷電．進而產生住宿學生失去基本飲食需求之供應"},{"start":12926.454,"end":12947.082,"text":"原此特提案要求教育部藉取相關教訓與經驗應抄前部署針對未來災害所影響學校﹐對住宿學生供餐機制﹐技術進行檢討與行政指導之修訂。事後必於2個月內提交書面報告。提案人林倩琦、羅廷瑋、柯之恩、陳金輝。第二案"},{"start":12948.328,"end":12968.54,"text":"查有女學生發現自己過去假交的體育課作業影片在非自願的情況下被上傳並公開於網路。影片接收到有許多留言包括對外貌及身材之評價以及帶有性暗示甚至可構成性騷擾之留言讓當事人感到心理不適與壓力。"},{"start":12969.861,"end":12996.752,"text":"故提出以下要求一、請教育部嚴密補救措施以保護學生權利不受侵害二、未來如有需請學生上傳影片繳交作業之狀況在學生未知情同業影片會被公開之狀況下一定應依學校使用資通系統或服務搜集及使用個人資料注意事項辦理。提案人吳佩奕、范雲、陳培雲。第三案"},{"start":12997.87,"end":13017.894,"text":"建於最近召開之國家語言發展會議許多講者提及對族語教育之憂心．仍請教育部就以下事項．於二周內向本委員會提出書面報告一、三如本席建議平規族語老師降低族語認證門檻分級訊息、族語多元認證等政策可行性"},{"start":13018.474,"end":13047.54,"text":"二、調查各大學原住民、祖師培開班狀況與學生人數、畢業後實際從業人數。三、瞭解113學年度足以專職老師、足以教職人員、限職教師的組成比例,以提升足以老師專職化政策目標。提案人曾培育張雅玲、范芸萱的完畢。謝謝。那我們現在處理解凍案第一案,請問各位委員有無任何意見?"},{"start":13052.013,"end":13059.094,"text":"我們現在處理第2案請問各位委員有無任何意見我們現在處理第4案請問各位委員有無任何意見"},{"start":13078.258,"end":13093.151,"text":"沒有意見我們第4案准予動之提報院會我們現在處理第5案請問各位委員有無意見沒有我們第5案准予動之提報院會我們現在處理第6案請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":13094.532,"end":13118.368,"text":"沒有意見第6案轉予動之提報院會我們現在處理第7案請問各位委員有無意見沒有意見沒有意見我們轉予動之第7案提報院會我們現在處理第8案請問各位委員有無意見沒有意見第8案轉予動之提報院會我們現在處理第9案請問各位委員有意見沒有意見"},{"start":13119.028,"end":13136.775,"text":"沒有意見第9案准予動之提報院會我們現在處理解凍案第10案請問各位委員有任何意見沒有意見沒有意見第9案准予動之提報院會我們現在處理第10案請問各位委員有無意見沒有意見"},{"start":13137.615,"end":13163.729,"text":"沒有意見第10案準與動之提報院會我們現在處理解凍案第11案請問各位委員有意見沒有意見沒有意見第11案準與動之提報院會我們現在解凍案處理完畢我們現在處理臨時提案臨時提案第一案的提案人是陳金輝委員請問提案委員有無補充說明"},{"start":13165.722,"end":13191.22,"text":"教育部已經有一些修改了在大家桌上吳佩儀委員這個提言我是支持但是因為這次颱風造成的偏鄉地區的學校受損影響不只屏東像基隆影響也非常嚴重所以我希望你們去檢討的時候就是全台大專院小相關的措施都要檢討是不是不是只針對一個縣市吧因為一個縣市不足喔所有都一起檢討"},{"start":13191.92,"end":13192.16,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13197.861,"end":13223.723,"text":"那教育部已經有五可以委員的意見請納入他下面已經改了教育部下面有寫並輔導各大專院校 校院處理倒數第二行裡邊進速進行檢討並輔導各大專校院辦理各大專校院要不要前面加個全國這樣子 剛剛五可以委員的 全國可以"},{"start":13224.963,"end":13228.725,"text":"這案就修正通過如果提案委員要補簽的話都可以"},{"start":13254.637,"end":13262.347,"text":"我們現在進行臨時提案的第二案提案人是吳佩儀委員有無任何補充說明或意見沒有那教育部要不要說明一下你們的修正"},{"start":13269.458,"end":13283.492,"text":"是謝謝委員也感謝提案吳委員我們的同意我們一例這個倒數第二行的一例因一修正為個人資料保護法及其相關法規辦理"},{"start":13286.351,"end":13310.249,"text":"那針對教育部的修正有沒有意義沒有意見那沒有意見我們臨時提案第二案就照案通過那有委員要補簽的可以到前面來那臨時提案第三案吳立華委員不在陳培委員也不在那我有聯署一起聯署那我並沒有要說明那教育部要不要說明一下那個補充"},{"start":13311.23,"end":13326.348,"text":"是的,謝謝委員,謝謝召集人。就在第一項案由裡邊的一呢參酌本席建議加請教育部會同言明會評估主語老師後面等等等"},{"start":13328.169,"end":13342.554,"text":"教育部的修正有沒有任何委員有意見要表達沒有的話我們就無意見照教育部修正通過也跟剛剛一樣各提案如果有委員要補簽請到前面來醫事院會詳細登載在議事錄接著我們進行質詢請楊瓊一委員質詢不好意思你久等了"},{"start":13357.711,"end":13358.092,"text":"楊群發言部長"},{"start":13368.527,"end":13387.988,"text":"委員好部長好108課綱上路5年了但是我們看到現在文理補習班可以說是非常的雨後春筍那跟你原先的108課綱所強調的是什麼呢是適性洋財對不對"},{"start":13389.75,"end":13390.21,"text":"您的看法呢"},{"start":13403.769,"end":13404.049,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13434.089,"end":13439.551,"text":"所以你認為現在與後春筍現在更擴大向下招生招收國小學生你認為有沒有造成學生的壓力本期要跟你討論的是這一個"},{"start":13454.616,"end":13456.098,"text":"所以你認為這是一個正常現象跟你的這個課綱的目標你認為是一個正常軌道"},{"start":13471.325,"end":13500.427,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們108課綱所強調的許多的這些基本上的一些目標設定跟這個世界經濟論壇所期待的未來人才的想像其實是當然是有KPI有期待本席請問你一句話是因為我們希望孩子適性養才這非常重要是過程當然有各種的方面但是造成學生升學壓力這一點我相信你不願意看到嗎"},{"start":13501.047,"end":13517.962,"text":"是嗎?是的,我想我們不希望這一個學生都在強調這一個升學好,所以就因為你說了回答了這一句話你是不希望看到孩子在升學壓力造成的困擾那我要請你一定要注意這一點這是我跟你討論的第一項我們要怎麼樣讓孩子快樂學習成長"},{"start":13522.626,"end":13547.037,"text":"因為本席從這以來最重要的目標也就是投資教育希望永遠在這是我們共同的目標我們一定要這個小心應對那接下來本席要請教體育部的一個成立你們目前小組開了三次的會議包括向下扎根發言多元的運動這個社團啊賽事啊甚至我們都提案"},{"start":13547.677,"end":13560.726,"text":"鼓勵參與運動賽事的可以怎麼樣去做調整所以本期要請教有400個學校操場跑道必須要修改有這個需求如果一加以這個1000萬那大概40億你每一年只編2億的這個公務預算"},{"start":13565.649,"end":13580.669,"text":"如果依照這個要20年以上所以在這種情況之下本席要請教在我們整個運動場上的建設上面跟體育部因為體育部成立我們全力以赴那你要怎麼樣來分工來協助呢請做說明"},{"start":13581.394,"end":13581.514,"text":"主席"},{"start":13596.443,"end":13598.904,"text":"部長請回,謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢那我們下一位質詢是李坤澤委員"},{"start":13628.481,"end":13637.269,"text":"謝謝部長,時間還沒開始,我就還沒請你起來"},{"start":13642.728,"end":13668.522,"text":"部長很主動想要被你回答第一個我先向部長說老師好因為我練中山大學的時候部長是我的社科院院長我的畢業證書上面還要蓋他的印章20多年前我在擔任高雄市議員的時候那時候是謝長廷市長他是教育局的局長當初我諮詢他都要先說老師好了請鄭部長"},{"start":13670.905,"end":13672.909,"text":"政務部長李昆澤委員的老師請上台"},{"start":13677.389,"end":13702.479,"text":"謝謝部長老師好那針對我們高雄的科工館我想部長非常的熟悉那科工館是我們南台灣一個重要的科學教育的一個園區但是他因為他非常的老舊那相關的硬體以及相關的軟體設施其實都跟不上時代了那我們也跟教育部來爭取"},{"start":13703.539,"end":13711.125,"text":"在教育部也列為年度的三大新興計畫特別謝謝教育部但是照國安會的時候因為國安會認為他牽扯到衛福部因為這個科工館也整個改建的計畫也包含忽悠館"},{"start":13719.732,"end":13726.815,"text":"這是屬於衛福部的,屬於市政府的,那也包括人行大法是內政部的,這個跨部會的協調,國會認為我們必須要先去來做處理。所以這個相關的這個費用也從30億縮減為22億,都希望這個計畫能夠順利的進行。"},{"start":13739.6,"end":13748.383,"text":"那現在因為我們擔憂這個今年沒有辦法列入明年的公建計畫是不是先請部長我們以部內的預算來做一個先期規劃的會用是不是有這個空間讓整個科工館"},{"start":13757.285,"end":13760.808,"text":"升級為科學教育園區這樣一個重大的目標能夠順利達成希望能夠先列入這個先期規劃的預算然後再能夠順利的進行到115年的公建計畫來請部長簡單說明一下謝謝委員關心這個高雄科工館確實陳主委員所提的因為他又有道路又有這個婦幼館他當時國花會"},{"start":13781.605,"end":13782.046,"text":"公建計劃裏變成"},{"start":13806.607,"end":13827.569,"text":"一五年的一個公建計劃的一個預算所以我們會明年我們會先給這一個科公館有一個先期規劃因為那個方向基本上大家是有共識的科公館是很重要的一個教學教育的一個園區這對科普對人才的培養他內部的設施建設也都老舊那整個"},{"start":13828.249,"end":13830.091,"text":"二、審查一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告"},{"start":13843.106,"end":13845.408,"text":"希望教育部能夠全力支持來部長最後說明一下"},{"start":13869.283,"end":13884.134,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,確實我上任以後我們也請這個李館長特別做了一個專案報告,然後我也為了這一個特別親自到高雄科工館去看過,我想我們會請你來支持。先納入先期規劃的會議,謝謝部長,謝謝老師。我們會來這樣做,謝謝。"},{"start":13888.554,"end":13899.179,"text":"部長請回,謝謝李昆澤委員這麼的守時還質詢完老師了我們下一位王宏威委員質詢4分鐘謝謝主席我請鄭部長鄭部長請"},{"start":13914.295,"end":13924.967,"text":"好部長好在上個星期事實上我們教委會也有專案報告就是針對我們的老舊的校舍那麼希望能夠盡快的來做補強改建的就應該改建"},{"start":13930.333,"end":13953.91,"text":"那在這個部分我要請教部長因為現在提出來說國發會呢會從明年開始有350億然後再做這個老舊校舍的整建那我必須說這個金額事實上也是偏少也是偏少因為我們現在全台的老舊校舍真的非常多以台北市來說"},{"start":13955.091,"end":13969.537,"text":"我們台北市其實有很多的校舍他其實都已經超過50年如果他都報文資的話事實上他處理都會非常非常的緩慢那台北市每一年也都要編40億因為這確實是一個很大的金額所以呢我希望我們在這個未來整個的老舊校舍的補助這個350億事實上也被逼出來好我們來看一下下一頁"},{"start":13982.703,"end":14004.493,"text":"事實上以今年來說你看過去106到109年事實上那個金額是353億但是不知道為什麼教育部後來越編越少越編越少越編越少今年的話只有37億不到40億連台北市的規模都沒有這真的是非常非常扯"},{"start":14005.333,"end":14030.85,"text":"所以在這邊要求部長能夠在全台的老舊的校舍甚至還要去協助地方我剛才講其實很多地方他都會面臨到因為校舍真的好久一旦到50年你最好我在台北市我都講最好有沒有50年之前要趕快做改建不過到50年你就報文資然後你都不曉得什麼時候才能夠改建因為時間的關係另外要跟部長"},{"start":14036.434,"end":14051.906,"text":"拜託一件事情最近呢在我的選區事實上他不是只是選區的事情就是呢這個台酒公司啊有個建國啤酒廠這個應該大家都知道他是全台灣唯一一個"},{"start":14052.927,"end":14053.608,"text":"有關教育部長鄭英耀列席"},{"start":14069.942,"end":14095.847,"text":"北科大因為說他要增加校舍校舍不夠就一直要這一塊地那麼現在呢他們現在已經開始在分割土地當然都審會啊過幾天就會審查那這個部分是陳基德以前是鄭文燦副院長現在是陳金德這個政委在做的一個協商我要告訴部長這件事情也許你上任不久你不知道"},{"start":14097.045,"end":14116.758,"text":"北科大他心意卓著他要增加校舍我們沒有什麼要反對的但是全台校舍這麼多尤其好多的私校到退場以後閑置校舍一頭拉骨為什麼非要這一塊土地我剛剛講他是唯一的一個百年的啤酒廠"},{"start":14118.479,"end":14122.081,"text":"那麼你把這個整個古蹟分割之後,變成什麼樣呢?這個古蹟啊,頭留給台皮,留給那個建國啤酒廠。身體跟這個腳啊,就割給北科大。北科大為什麼要?你一直說北科大幹嘛要古蹟呢?因為他要容積率。他把容積再灌到他的校地上。"},{"start":14142.162,"end":14150.966,"text":"北科一直說我們學校有這個可以啊來這個修復文資保護文資的這個能力可是部長我們就一個baby吧他的媽媽可以養你為什麼一定要把他搶過來養而且還要把他分割搶過來養所以現在很多的文資團體都在搶救這個百年建國啤酒廠的活股機"},{"start":14171.554,"end":14193.676,"text":"如果被北哥他強硬的把他割出去你看到沒有上面這個這個墨綠色的也是他的火也是他的這個是一個在營業中目前還營運的一個啤酒廠大學用地1這個大概有75%的用地都是古蹟啊大學用地2才是他的校舍合理嗎所以部長"},{"start":14196.238,"end":14214.731,"text":"北科大要銷售沒有意見全台灣頂這麼多為什麼非要這塊土地非要我們百年建國啤酒廠破壞了一個百年建國啤酒廠對教育也是非常不好的時間超過了是不是部長給書面報告或者是之後再跟王委員解釋好嗎我希望你們讓北科大提出"},{"start":14220.655,"end":14220.755,"text":"請吳宗憲委員質詢"},{"start":14254.193,"end":14257.415,"text":"國衛院報告顯示,我們國家未成年人用毒品的年齡大概是12.5歲"},{"start":14281.445,"end":14308.706,"text":"十二點五歲而且高達兩到兩成三是在校園裡面的使用毒品那但是呢依據你們這一次一百多頁的業務報告對於毒品的政策只有一句話就是說截至113年八月底止完成了四萬一千九百八十二班的反毒宣導那我想請問一下這個你從上個會期這個立法院報告毒品防治政策之後到現在"},{"start":14310.828,"end":14329.426,"text":"您可不可以給我們一份你們到底是怎麼樣做?可以嗎?您有必要先說明一下嗎?剛剛我已經說明了我們的這個藥物的防治濫用的宣導其實要打開了觸及率所以要求要做到入班宣導每一個班"},{"start":14330.458,"end":14353.151,"text":"每一個學期都要有一個場次可是沒有效果啊我跟你講今年還沒有結束啊今年到現在統計的數字就已經幾乎快要跟那個去年或前年的總量了所以完全沒效果嘛那結果你現在給我的報告給我們的那個報告是只有這一句話就是說做了很多宣導那我不知道"},{"start":14354.351,"end":14375.491,"text":"以一個教育人的觀念裡面如果一個無效的政策那個是意義在哪裡那這是不是只是在消耗預算我是想請問你們這個問題而且我跟你們說毒品這個東西其實它本來就是個隱晦不容易被發現的它不像有一些犯罪它會公開它是很多都是在私下或什麼所以其實毒品犯罪"},{"start":14376.601,"end":14394.748,"text":"在未成年人也是一樣他有一個犯罪的黑數那有時候學校為了一些自己的效益他也不敢對外通報或是迫於家長的壓力他不往上通報所以部長你有沒有真的去了解一下實際的建樹是什麼或是你們有嚴格要求學校不可以隱藏"},{"start":14396.777,"end":14411.047,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個學校的這個學生的這些相關的毒品這一個的一些議題我想他當然一定是從這個社區家長學校三方共同來努力合作的那我們"},{"start":14412.248,"end":14412.708,"text":"部長我剛說了無效"},{"start":14431.4,"end":14442.07,"text":"所以今年到現在為止的總量已經逼近了去年前年的總量數字了所以是無效那我想一個小小的建議就是說這個東西其實"},{"start":14450.595,"end":14477.576,"text":"不容易發現毒品帶者也不容易發現小朋友用也不容易被發現那至少是不是說學校的老師在看學小朋友譬如說他有是不是有一些用毒品後的跡象啊愛睡覺啦或是容易脾氣暴躁讓老師能夠有一個手冊可以按照這個手冊去觀察就像我們對於金融我們有一個紅旗警訊我們會看符合哪幾項的話可能就是一個比較有有嚴重性有可能性風險高風險"},{"start":14478.717,"end":14498.053,"text":"跟委員報告跟委員所提的正是學校目前在做的那總是要有一個效果但是我看到的是你一直告訴我現在學校在做但是我一直告訴你效果不好那是不是教育部能不能夠兩個月內能夠給我們一個回覆的報告有沒有一些新的想法"},{"start":14498.553,"end":14511.988,"text":"部長你剛剛一直說都在做但是我現在告訴你的是從數字會說話數字看起來就是沒有改善好不好部長這部分再麻煩你那最後我提一個東西就是"},{"start":14513.365,"end":14541.77,"text":"收書包的部分我要講雖然我們很多利益良善但是部長請注意到實務上面很多老師要求收書包的時候學生是拒絕的那甚至他的有些家長他根本就不管甚至他也許有一點點是放棄小孩子的教育所以他也不去幫助學校所以到最後老師在面對拒絕被收書包的學生的時候該怎麼辦"},{"start":14542.91,"end":14571.789,"text":"甚至有一些學生老師都會怕他了那是不是部長一樣在兩個月內能夠告訴我一個如何解決一線教師不敢執行收書包的這個解決之道同時兼顧學生的人權同時兼顧效應的安全好嗎那請部長之後再書面回應或者是再跟吳委員解釋好嗎好謝謝謝謝部長再麻煩部長一定要兩個月內回覆我好謝謝那部長請回喔謝謝吳宗憲委員再來我們請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":14580.717,"end":14582.659,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長,鄭部長"},{"start":14590.441,"end":14618.63,"text":"委員好部長好部長昨天我在總質詢的時候有提到這一個這一個營養午餐法因為我就想到就是說現在韓國的黑白大廚裡面不是有一位是屬於這個國小的這個營養午餐的廚師還能夠晉級到前面去可是那時候我是說我們在立法院有委員已經提出了像營養午餐法或學校共產法相關的這個法案好像這個我們教育部還沒有相對應的法案出來對不對"},{"start":14620.054,"end":14645.499,"text":"我想怎麼樣讓學生有一個更健康的一個營養午餐就事實上都是各界包括家長包括政府都非常關心的也是民意代表一直關心的那我們現在確實在這個部分因為不同的一些型態然後有許多的共識我們一直在收集資料希望能夠有一個更完整的一個這樣一個共識的時候也許我們就有一個在適當的時間提出"},{"start":14646.539,"end":14668.027,"text":"但是不要拖就是說你要把他這個法案去跟各界做溝通協調我都沒有什麼意見但是就是不要拖有預計哪時候要提出來嗎提到立法院來嗎目前其實還真的還有很多的爭議就是說不同的看法真的是還蠻大的是那你們要去克服要去解決總是要有個期限沒有沒有這個期限"},{"start":14675.213,"end":14676.534,"text":"會不會提類似這個營養五三法學校共產法提到立法院好了?會不會?"},{"start":14694.058,"end":14701.088,"text":"這個是不是在給我們剛才那個三個議題因為長久以來我們有行政的措施我本來只是問說何時會提過來你們沒辦法保證我只是說會不會我已經退步了會不會都沒辦法給我一個答案部長"},{"start":14709.977,"end":14721.485,"text":"我想我們會來努力協調啦會我們來努力協調協調阿會不會送到立法院來阿因為他確實還存在許多的爭議包括人員、經費、預算等等的這個部長這個院長昨天有講到說他會不定期的無預警的去吃這個營養午餐我可不可以邀請你我們一起來來我們三重像這個我當然我樂意我樂意來那我們約個時間來吃那我們也是無預警的我們在11點11點再去"},{"start":14735.615,"end":14737.197,"text":"那你知道現在孩子的營養午餐到底是吃什麼好不好"},{"start":14751.971,"end":14765.103,"text":"我再問一下這也是在我選區的事情有一位在三重某高職的老師他在他的推特上有發表了一些言論請部長看一下這樣合不合適"},{"start":14766.825,"end":14782.126,"text":"這學期開始了我的教職生活,到三重的學校任教,發掘到8加9的魅力。比如說昨天在待課只上過一次課的左小腿佈滿刺青的高三男學生經過我的辦公室。"},{"start":14783.047,"end":14800.74,"text":"跟我說了一聲Hi我轉頭看了他一眼給了一個微笑他也笑了一下之後離開辦公室這個場景比我近期遇到的男人都還要帥氣跟有魅力這是一個被家酒精煉高中生迷到的老師的危險心得"},{"start":14802.079,"end":14824.437,"text":"我不曉得部長看到了有沒有什麼樣的感想另外呢他在一天前有講了一樣他的心得仍然是被家久少年迷惑的高中老師學生們怎麼都長得這麼好看啊怎麼只有十五六歲老師會等你們三年的那當然他有打一個問號這個場景啊如果今天換成是男老師的話我想炸鍋了"},{"start":14832.199,"end":14839.173,"text":"但是不管是男老師女老師我認為都不應該也不可以那我想請教一下部長的看法"},{"start":14840.922,"end":14863.928,"text":"確實在老師因為在許多的這些網路在寫有關個人的許多的一些對外在事務的一些看法怎麼樣去這個涉及到信憑喔是我的意思說應該謹守分際他確實是不宜的我們所知道新北市教育局也在17號他就會召開這個信憑的一個會議針對這個案例這個請這個老師做一個說明"},{"start":14870.249,"end":14873.553,"text":"我認為這件事當然我也知道說新北市教育局有在做處理的那我也希望說我們教育部"},{"start":14885.326,"end":14899.272,"text":"我們也會自己來督導這個事情就請教育部給他書面報告或者是跟魯昆城辦公室說明討論最後的結果要跟我們講當然我們也會去跟新北市教育局這個非常非常不適當"},{"start":14905.334,"end":14911.756,"text":"請部長之後再跟李委員說明。謝謝部長請為,謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。再來我們請吳春城委員。有請鄭部長。"},{"start":14935.031,"end":14954.924,"text":"部長辛苦了我很好是是是那個我看了在看那個預算看了一個還蠻有趣應該不是有趣蠻驚悚的一個數據就發現我們學生越來越少但我們的教育預算越來越多"},{"start":14956.363,"end":14966.352,"text":"哇這個是一件很恐怖的事情那我們來看一下那個今年教育預算這110年40年度到了3623億比去年又多了233億"},{"start":14974.446,"end":14985.692,"text":"這些預算你看主年一直在增加主年在增加那我們看一下我比較這個數據你看從這20年來93年當時我們的教育預算是1367億我們當時的學生總數是505萬平均每人的這個教育經費是27000"},{"start":15004.571,"end":15028.898,"text":"到了113年我們的教育算是3390億我們的學生總數是404萬少了100萬平均每人的教育預算是8萬3這是一件非常驚悚的事如果就以企業管理企業教育來講發生這種事情"},{"start":15033.231,"end":15054.909,"text":"少了100萬人多了2000億的預算部長可不可以解釋一下這是怎麼回事我想其實跟委員報告我想這事實上就是說在傳遞一個政府對新世代人才培育他的一個決心而且他願意有更多的一個挹注"},{"start":15056.314,"end":15056.514,"text":"是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":15065.679,"end":15094.879,"text":"但是呢結果呢這是你的理想結果呢我們這你看10年你特別是民進黨從103年103年到現在我們平均的經費超過百分之一百分之一百從四萬到八萬三平均每一個人我們的素質我們的教育的國際排名我們的所有的這些問題有更改善嗎"},{"start":15095.299,"end":15095.719,"text":"那個可能喔"},{"start":15122.18,"end":15136.056,"text":"我們有一些部份的菁英當中是有進步但是普遍跟委員報告這披薩是15歲也就針對國中三年級跟高中一年級16歲的這些小孩所做的一個調查"},{"start":15136.957,"end":15156.156,"text":"所以這個全世界的標準我們事實上是名列前茅在3、4、5這三個科目我想這展示了我們這些年來政府對教育的投資當然我們都是很贊成的不過這個的比例也是很驚悚的幾乎是幾乎是你看是"},{"start":15158.858,"end":15165.3,"text":"我們投入了超過三倍的預算平均每個人當中的他的成果應該可以要更加的顯著"},{"start":15180.825,"end":15192.811,"text":"我想跟委員報告這個確實委員從企業經營的一個概念怎麼樣讓我們的教育經費的投入能夠更具有這個這個他的一個效益跟品質這是我們要來努力來這個嚴守的"},{"start":15197.874,"end":15222.847,"text":"然後再來的話另外一種人這也是我談了很久這一個其實談了一個會期的然後我們8月10號也有這個公聽會我們的教育部的次長也有出席做一些承諾但是到現在我只要確認一下這個政策目前推行的狀況怎麼樣是哪一個單位在負責是高教師還是中教師"},{"start":15223.387,"end":15248.004,"text":"跟委員報告我們過去原來是一個比較是終身師因為壯世代委員從委員的觀點是希望大概在55歲以後的這樣一個壯世代但確實我現在進來以後我認為從終身學習的一個概念包含為師校找到許多的一些出路怎麼樣去協助他們發展特色的一個學校然後也能夠"},{"start":15249.165,"end":15249.185,"text":"委員長"},{"start":15273.972,"end":15283.956,"text":"那什麼時候?現在進行的狀況是如何?我們目前確實是在努力規劃就是說讓高教師也能夠加進來共同合作他不會只是一個終身師的一個業務所以原來答應了說對於那個第三人生大學推動的這一個的政策現在是聽白嗎?"},{"start":15303.769,"end":15330.868,"text":"我們基本上在114年就會有一個上半年就有一個說明會跟審查的一個作業所以上半年是等於明年我們上半年就會有做這樣一個好接下來另外再從預算上面上次的總諮詢當中有對這個高齡的那個中間教育師是3.4億你有說今年有多了2億多那我算起來大概有6億吧"},{"start":15335.293,"end":15346.128,"text":"兩億多嘛,我們現在增加了兩百多億,大概就撥了一趴啦,其實這只是通膨而已啦只是把通膨抵消一下所增加的幅度"},{"start":15349.691,"end":15365.5,"text":"我現在要問的一個現在6億你知道中央世代有多少人現在60歲以上有600萬人600萬人分配6億的教育預算每個人是100塊一年教育經費"},{"start":15366.761,"end":15393.344,"text":"部長覺得這樣子是什麼意思跟委員報告我們確實在整個應該是說我們整體的一個預算我們並不是用這個6億來來除以這個600萬的我們其實是我剛才跟委員報告我們希望在高教師跟終身師裡邊有更多的合作所以我們其實在整個總體的一個預算上我們一定會有一個更有效的來支持但是呢不管你怎麼說啦就是說"},{"start":15394.185,"end":15420.93,"text":"其實對這一塊教育是非常方惠的剛才那個平均一個人是八萬多的教育經費這裡是一百塊天堂地別那但是大家其實這不是一個世代說老人跟怎麼樣其實這是一體的世代共榮這個我已經也談了一個但是教育在這裡面影響很大那這一個現在教育部現在還是"},{"start":15423.05,"end":15451.073,"text":"還是沒有覺醒這一塊的所以要更加的努力其實我們真的非常積極努力在思考這個怎麼樣讓30歲離開學校以後他們不管在職場不管在休閒在這一個興趣的發展或者能力的一個另外更多能力的養成我們其實一直希望能夠有更多的管道那個我知道30歲以上都很好但是現在這一個"},{"start":15452.114,"end":15473.115,"text":"對那個都很好 但是這一塊問題是很嚴重的600萬的中央世代的這個是一個高齡化在70幾天就進入超高齡化你不要這樣敷衍的講的就是30啦我擴增你要專注這樣子的一個問題你也可以當然包含在這個30歲的涵蓋裡面但是對於這樣子的600萬"},{"start":15475.597,"end":15499.484,"text":"30歲到60歲但50歲之前我覺得沒有什麼太大問題你就是後端的這一端的問題非常的嚴重要針對這樣的問題現在非常的就社區大學就是什麼那個樂齡大學就是這種敷衍式的教育沒有跟委員報告其實委員可以看到我們現在例如說以華泛來講他原來是一個相對可能要退場的一個學校"},{"start":15499.904,"end":15526.111,"text":"但是他今年因為我們給他一個單獨招生他也特定了一些招生的一個這一個來源聲援的一個定位你看他大一他已經有平均我其實我知道有像華萬是一個很好的一個案例包括空大空大也很積極想要去針對這一些退休了高領的教育所以我們並沒有其實大家都蠢蠢欲動想要看到這一塊的商機的機會"},{"start":15527.731,"end":15553.823,"text":"看到這一塊那教育部齁我相信我也我知道你們有在弄但是呢我也希望齁剛才這樣講我們不要把問題私交好好的針對這高齡的是不是可以請教一部齁針對齁這不管是第三人生大學有關狀態的學習多元體系齁你要針對這一塊是不是可以提出一個規劃出來呢你你如果說我都在做你這個其實就匯總過來沒有我想我們絕對不是要要"},{"start":15556.063,"end":15582.889,"text":"這一個胡農委對對對我也相信啦我也相信就在但是呢我一直搞了半天一直在問到現在我還是很模糊那你們又一直擴散說我們變成30歲我們變成怎麼樣好像把問題分散擴散以後我更加的模糊嘛因為我們確實認為現在的健康醫療的照護確實讓這些都壯世代他們的身體非常健康對對現在都百歲世代不能只是想那些所謂的休閒休憩的謝謝可不可以拜託這個一個月"},{"start":15585.553,"end":15605.874,"text":"請教育部給我再給觀眾再多元學習你們大概要怎麼做的一個讓我們放心這樣子好不好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席那部長請回喔謝謝吳春城委員的質詢再來我們請高金素美委員質詢他們要不要休息"},{"start":15609.78,"end":15632.698,"text":"謝謝昭薇,我們先暫停一下因為今天昭薇給我們的詢答的時間請我們要精準,只有4分鐘所以我待會請各部長回應的時候也不要含糊,請你精準的回答我因為今天昭薇非常的嚴格讓我們要精準的在時間內質詢完畢好嗎?好,先開始我的質詢,請鄭部長好,那個部長請"},{"start":15636.533,"end":15638.614,"text":"我當主持的時候都是通融20秒這樣一直站起來"},{"start":15666.753,"end":15688.668,"text":"你知道嗎我們來看一下122年度全台高級中等以下的學校的校數扣掉原住民重點學校也不含幼兒園總共有3450間而原住民重點學校一樣不含我們的所謂的幼兒園有420間占了整個的12%原住民重點學校占12%你卻只給我7.7%的預算也就是1.26億我們缺了"},{"start":15694.872,"end":15695.494,"text":"6900萬請問部長你要補回來嗎?"},{"start":15698.968,"end":15725.033,"text":"跟委員報告這個1.9億事實上他是確定一定有的但是如果有一些需求我知道你不要告訴我這些了啦原住民的部分你就是給我1.26億然後其他的部分你就是16.26億我現在問你的是好原住民部分的時候也可以去爭取16.26億嗎我跟委員報告這一個委員所提的需求我們確實需要的時候我們一定會支持的"},{"start":15725.88,"end":15742.753,"text":"請準一點可不可以一定會支持你已經編了原住民是1.26億如果原住民多了1.26億也可以再從這個16.26億裡面去拿是嗎精準不要浪費時間跟委員報告可以不可以可不可以我們會支持的"},{"start":15747.176,"end":15749.617,"text":"你知道學校體育組辦理學校運動場還有運動器材的時候呢你們會派一些委託專家學者去啊"},{"start":15770.289,"end":15770.429,"text":"請問一下怎麼解決?"},{"start":15802.775,"end":15813.3,"text":"所以所以會往前排不會按照體育署你們現在告訴我們的是不是一定要先以光電然後沒有光電的就排在最後以他實際需求是吧"},{"start":15814.051,"end":15841.342,"text":"光電需求先評估他確實是在政策上希望能夠兼顧但是如果你很愛浪費我的時間部長我都已經把問題問完了你就回答請暫停請暫停請暫停因為我就4分鐘的時間我把問題問完了你就回答如果真的不適合用光電那麼我會按照學校的需求往前排只要學校有需求就好部長"},{"start":15842.282,"end":15859.062,"text":"你是專業的人請你回答算精準一點好不好不要浪費我的時間謝謝對於主委老師的權益6月6號我在這邊質詢過你請問一下主委老師的資格門檻現在到底有沒有從高級主委認證修改為中高級主委認證有還是沒有"},{"start":15861.138,"end":15889.826,"text":"跟委員報告基本上這個原民委員這個原民不要告訴我啦一言一如何有沒有共識什麼時候完成辦法的修訂你不要告訴我就推給原民會的這個什麼教文處你們教文處跟國教署有一個平台啊部長你知道嗎這個平台就必須要討論跟委員報告我們內部的老師這一個培訓跟老師的任用我們確實是在朝降低這一個從什麼時候可以降低"},{"start":15890.726,"end":15912.766,"text":"我6月6號在這裡問你了今年的6月6號什麼時候研議部長你不能回答你就請旁邊休息請署長什麼時候研議有沒有共識什麼時候可以完成辦法的修訂剛剛部長已經說明了是有共識那現在就是族群的委員那邊大家還要再會商一下在我們這邊跟園民會的行政單位已經有共識了"},{"start":15913.106,"end":15918.17,"text":"司機培育政策的問題請問一下中央主管機關要會同中央目的地令地請問一下原住民族族語施育政策是什麼?我們現在專注族語老師教育人與中典費的族語老師這些司機有沒有明確的拼用辦法?"},{"start":15939.205,"end":15965.983,"text":"抱歉張委員因為他浪費我太多的時間你再給我一分鐘請問一下我知道啊我相信在場的委員想法跟我一樣啊對啊你們都一直沒有暫停啊你們最起碼浪費了我一分鐘好嗎張委員第5年沒有看過有主席暫停的師資培育中心現在已經專門培育"},{"start":15970.147,"end":15971.709,"text":"教育部書面回應"},{"start":15985.026,"end":15993.713,"text":"我沒有講完他要怎麼書面回應啊我現在問他我現在問他他可以不用回答我現在問他他可以不用回答請他兩周內回給我好不好你是召委我珍重但是我沒有問他問題他怎麼樣書面回答我可以再跟他約時間齁"},{"start":16006.903,"end":16007.363,"text":"報告張偉請他2個字內2個禮拜之內給我還有國土計畫事項我們有非常多"},{"start":16029.574,"end":16050.86,"text":"五大專案下的鄭竹燮我們是不是能夠再加袁志明學生名額也是兩個字你賣給我一事人員賣的通知是可以切斷好 謝謝不用回應了齁我想您也當過召委請尊重好嗎歡迎你回來教育文化委員會好嗎回來當我們委員時間就會比較長我說回來當教文委員"},{"start":16055.981,"end":16057.602,"text":"我們下一位徐巧欣委員質詢。"},{"start":16096.615,"end":16101.099,"text":"謝謝主席我們請教育部鄭部長教育部部長請委員好部長好我們最近在這個臺北市也好高雄市最近都在發一個這個校園扶勤的這個勾選問卷讓我們的學生來勾選是不是有這件事情"},{"start":16123.749,"end":16148.294,"text":"最近發的公文給地方政府要求他們來發給學生來勾選是嗎?快點快點什麼時候發的公文給地方政府的?最近他們都忙忙碌碌的在發下去不是最近應該在五月份的時候五月份的時候發的所以他們最近正在調查嘛對不對那我想請問一下部長我們的法源依據有哪些?"},{"start":16150.762,"end":16167.861,"text":"主要是全民防衛動員準備主要是那還有哪些全民國防教育法還有哪些法律未接就這兩個可是我看到你們的範本上面還有寫了教育部113年度的部分有全民國防教育法、權動法還有民防法有嗎"},{"start":16169.289,"end":16193.778,"text":"也涉及到民防法也有民防法嘛對不對那你們一直講說呢這個部分好我先問一個問題你們給學生跟學生家長去做這個勾選的時候有把分類計畫表的全部給學生跟學生家長嗎還是你只有給他問卷的部分同意書而已只有同意書那你沒有給人家全部問全部的計畫表你只給副表那他怎麼知道依據哪一個法律呢"},{"start":16196.572,"end":16215.449,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,確實這一個問卷的一個調查我們確實在行政上是有所疏漏有所疏漏,好,我告訴你疏漏在哪裡好不好來,你們在那個問卷調查簿上寫說都跟戰爭沒有關係,跟戰時沒有關係但我請教一下,來,民法法裡面的第二條之二之四裡面寫什麼"},{"start":16222.856,"end":16248.035,"text":"民防法來考一下你你說民防法有關嗎民防法裡面的第二支四條寫什麼應該是學校規模超過100人以上的學校必須要不是民防法的二支四條裡面寫到的是呢民防工作範圍二支四條裡面是支援軍事勤務你剛剛說了我們這個青年扶勤動員法的"},{"start":16249.075,"end":16264.84,"text":"這個支援表裡面的法源依據之一是民防法民防法裡面就有寫到戰爭時期是關於支援軍事群務的民防法的五之一裡面寫到高中以上要編組我再問你一個問題民防法的權動法的第二條第二點寫什麼"},{"start":16274.55,"end":16277.176,"text":"動輪實施階段因為我時間不夠動輪實施階段第三條動輪實施階段裡面寫什麼什麼叫動輪實施階段"},{"start":16283.822,"end":16285.204,"text":"不是學校的部分"},{"start":16307.863,"end":16308.043,"text":"說嘛!說啊!"},{"start":16329.657,"end":16341.087,"text":"你以為這個法條給大家簽了同意說今天會議在全黨法第幾條你不知道然後跟所有說這個事情跟這個戰爭無關我問你全部你又講不出來第幾條我剩8秒鐘請你回答你說不是回答不出來第幾條應該是第我一定要是第9條我時間不夠了昭偉你看怎麼辦"},{"start":16354.392,"end":16357.753,"text":"可以讓我講完這一段嗎?不然永遠沒有人知道是第幾條好不好?教委你讓我講完這一段第15條為確保動員實施階段所需之人力對學校進行青年動員扶持而剛剛所謂的動員實施階段就是在支援軍事作戰以上你們就只給了學校這個動員的"},{"start":16381.702,"end":16384.623,"text":"主席各位官員各位委員好我也想請部長有請部長"},{"start":16409.4,"end":16434.807,"text":"部長我們應該可以在時間內討論完謝謝委員今天其實是要跟您檢討一下幾個本席在國發會的公共政策網路討論平台上看到教育部的計畫有6項是進度落後因此有一些老師或是家長其實對本席有提出陳情也很關注"},{"start":16435.387,"end":16458.677,"text":"那在這邊拿出兩案來跟您做一個檢討也希望部長可以拿出一些改善方案今天要探討的是呢從2022年開始有一個新興人口成長區公立學校以下的校舍興建計劃他是一個很踴躍非常多學校申請的專案所以從12.25億一路漲到40億最後呢今年3月又到總上限的69.92億但是"},{"start":16461.878,"end":16469.233,"text":"我想詢問部長是您知道你原本預定的執行率是多少而實際執行到目前有多少嗎?"},{"start":16471.454,"end":16499.27,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,因為確實這個執行力是不是能夠請這個署長來補說說還是我也要自己講出答案謝謝委員,這個我們蓋17間到19間的學校由6個縣市政府在執行,我們蓋了1000間左右的教室那這個執行的過程本來應該在1、2年的年底左右執行那因為縣市政府在標案上需要協助,我們給他多一點時間來幫忙"},{"start":16501.391,"end":16525.477,"text":"為什麼很多學校的老師跟家長很著急因為我們只剩一年但是我們來興建校舍總要配合人家寒暑假的時間你不可能每天都敲敲打打的所以你只剩下一個寒假還有一個暑假他就要做完了結果呢實際執行率才59%立法院的預算中心都已經講了你們的進度很糟糕你知道原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":16527.11,"end":16548.485,"text":"我想剛才彭處長也特別提到我們就是因為本來就是來協助地方在這一個新興人口學生的一個需求所以地方政府我們全力來支持他那地方政府在幾多的公開花包跟這個施工我想我們為了支持地方政府快速的來完成這些的一個建築"},{"start":16550.106,"end":16573.513,"text":"國發會的查核點他也有點出來好工程主辦機關就是這些各級學校嗎那他的驗收還有付款進度是延宕這邊說到的這個工程主管機關雖然是拿你們補助你們也是給補助的這一方可是你不可以雙手一攤把錢給對方然後好像就沒有事了因為小朋友的安全學生"},{"start":16574.353,"end":16599.804,"text":"這個校舍的安全尤其我們現在台灣每年六級以上的地震可能平均有兩到三次這些其實都是家長老師很關注的嘛所以我在這邊具體給部長一個建議是不是呢這個您可以請工程會天天他們都在辦理大小標案的檢討知道怎麼樣正確的去運用還有執行你可不可以會同工程會來幫這些學校進度落後做一個總體檢好不好"},{"start":16602.363,"end":16619.457,"text":"我想我們來會同這個地方政府我們看怎麼樣協助這些中小學的這些的教室能夠儘速趕快完成。教委你也認同嗎?你也認同?如果教育部可以請工程會來尋求協助讓這些各級的學校可以盡快達成。因為地方政府他確實是本身有工程單位。我想我們還是這一個來會同地方政府來"},{"start":16627.143,"end":16654.209,"text":"您認同嗎兩個月內我們給教育委員會一份報告是不是可以教育部也可以輔導請工程會來輔導這些各級學校因為他們現在興建這些校舍的進度很落後我想讓教育部自己回應好嗎主席就不介入跟委員報告真的地方政府我覺得他就可以來完成這一個使命委員所關心的怎麼樣讓他在安全的前提然後儘速完成我想我們會來跟地方政府來這一個"},{"start":16655.369,"end":16677.767,"text":"我會在年底前繼續追蹤你們的執行率如果執行率很差的話也會請你們提出一個檢討方案畢竟這是教育部撥出來的經費嘛最後一個這個我們有一個蔡政府做的建設預算產業人才培育基地計畫您知道經費是多少那現在預定執行幾座那現在已經做了幾座嗎"},{"start":16681.334,"end":16702.246,"text":"根委員報告目前已經完成20座都已經完成了是但是現在是不是還有學校說還沒有拿到他的補助經費因為有聽到學校在反映這個基地還沒有撥下來補助經費根委員報告目前"},{"start":16703.446,"end":16729.277,"text":"兩座是這個月才核定所以我們會陸續依照學校的進度給予撥款好這也是學校很關心的謝謝召委那部長請回謝謝陳金輝委員的質詢那不足地方你們再書面回應我們下一位葉元之委員質詢歡迎部長謝謝有請部長"},{"start":16737.213,"end":16766.453,"text":"委員好部長好我一直想問一下校園服勤同意書我先問一下為什麼在特別針對校園服勤同意書這個議題上面教育部的說法永遠都在改變前兩天的時候傳出這樣的一個消息說到底有沒有發這個學生服勤同意書教育部說不要製造恐慌是假的為什麼第一時間要否認因為我剛剛部長你並沒有否認你說就有這件事那為什麼要否認"},{"start":16775.148,"end":16786.835,"text":"部長,你們是教育部,教育部是全國最高教育單位,如果全國教育單位在記者求證的時候,你可以說我再問一下,但不能說謊啊,怎麼可以說謊呢?如果教育部都說謊的話,誰還會相信教育部?"},{"start":16793.596,"end":16801.094,"text":"我想我們並沒有說謊就說就那你去告自由時報自由時報說是假的教育部說物資遭恐慌"},{"start":16802.148,"end":16828.274,"text":"你去告自由時報啦好不好沒有跟委員報告我們大概在整個裡邊就說這個事實上是一個重點你後來講的我都知道我現在說為什麼第一時間要否認嘛是不是能夠很清楚沒關係啦沒關係啦這個我只是因為當時被問的是說我們發放了一個暫時動員的醫院調查沒有啊我們沒有發生你那個文字遊戲好沒有關係接下來因為我這不是我主要問的問題我希望說教育部在回應的時候因為"},{"start":16829.634,"end":16850.57,"text":"因為這個跟我等一下要問都有關係啦你要講精準嘛你要精準嘛好不好那我要先講一個我覺得你們在做這個事情啊過程非常粗糙讓我無法想像的一件事情你們知道你們在發這個扶擒同意書的過程當中很多資料都外洩了欸哇 這真的很嚴重的國安問題喔我們來看一下"},{"start":16851.807,"end":16876.269,"text":"這個是高雄市政府114年度學校青年扶勤動員準備計畫他這個計畫上面寫的內閱、限閱就是說只有內部的人可以看我紅線畫出來的部分本執行計畫僅限動員業務幹部持用啊我也不是業務幹部啊為什麼我會有你要說我是不是駭客或者是我哪裡偷來的都不是我是Google到的"},{"start":16878.223,"end":16905.938,"text":"你們一個動員準備計畫說內部的機密資料結果隨便人家就可以Google到你現在是不怕對岸看光光喔除了這個之外我再給部長看這個是有的學校發放上去的服勤人數的統計表南港高中服勤0政大附中服勤0國立台灣戲曲學院服勤0這是我去偷來的嗎不是這也是網路Google到的"},{"start":16906.963,"end":16935.752,"text":"所以你現在是要讓這些資料在網路上大公開喔讓全世界都知道說我們到底哪些學校的服勤人數是多少然後還有就是我們計畫是怎樣這個資安問題這已經不是資安問題了啦這個是大家不小心到把這些資料不應該公開都公開了那你告訴我們這些學生他去參與你們服勤計畫他會放心嗎連他的個資可能都會外洩欸不然你要不要去了解一下"},{"start":16937.927,"end":16942.41,"text":"可以喔我知道可以啦可以啦"},{"start":16964.162,"end":16984.302,"text":"所以我就覺得你的態度就是這樣嘛難怪大家就很緊張嘛好啦部長現在我們看到大部分的服勤人數都零啊為什麼因為很多學校你們發文給教育局發文給學校學校有的根本就沒發下去嘛直接就填零為什麼因為他也不知道這個要幹嘛啊"},{"start":16985.601,"end":17001.202,"text":"一方面發下去如果是18歲以上學生在學校直接可以填18歲以下還要回去給家長填萬一家長問這什麼我也答不出來阿阿為什麼答不出來因為教育部的講法永遠都在改變阿所以乾脆有些學校就是連發都不發直接填零了啦"},{"start":17002.464,"end":17024.297,"text":"所以每個都0那臺北市我知道他們有統計出來只有一成的人有意願嘛阿為什麼有九成的人沒意願這臺灣人不相信政府嗎不是這從頭到尾大家都搞不清楚這到底是什麼我們來看一下網路上網友怎麼講網友我們有這個臺大的學生說選對的人走對的路兒子當後勤爸爸上戰場"},{"start":17025.663,"end":17050.892,"text":"然後還有別的學校說什麼這種發下去全班都會寫無吧大家都搞不清楚這個是什麼真的從頭到尾都講不清楚我就這個計畫內容跟你就教一下因為早上我也看到部長您對媒體的回應你說這個跟打仗完全無關嘛對不對完全就是可能以後打仗以後大家做後勤支援吧大概是這個意思嘛對不對跟打仗完全無關"},{"start":17051.992,"end":17079.888,"text":"先問你一個問題啦去年當時其實也有傳出類似的一個消息出來就是說叫學校去統計然後要登錄到一個全民防衛動員資訊整合系統裡面這去年的事喔當時教育部就說高等中等高級中等以上學校停止辦理而且去年是根據民防法結果今年又繼續做今年是根據什麼法剛剛需要請委員問你你是說根據是根據全民防衛動員法對不對"},{"start":17082.005,"end":17107.143,"text":"第一個我的問題是為什麼去年是民防法今年是全民防衛動員法差別在哪為什麼今年不根據民防法主要是全民防約動員準備法民防法是因為他是民防組織動員也是整個人力所以你的意思是說去年把它停掉的原因是因為事法性不足是不是不應該用民防法應該要全民動員"},{"start":17107.964,"end":17132.425,"text":"去年停掉是因為他有這個系統建制的問題有治安考慮所以沒有說不做所以那個治安的那個部分系統停暴的部分已經停止辦理了解了就是說你的意思是說去年停下來不是說不做只是有治安跟系統問題所以停下來所以今年繼續做所以從頭到尾就是要做這件事嗎名冊不用報只要留校被查一樣嘛就是要統計嘛一樣嘛就是要做這件事情只是不用報嘛所以是系統問題這個事情還要繼續做嘛那"},{"start":17135.441,"end":17145.252,"text":"那部長剛剛講說這個東西跟暫時無關對不對部長你知道全民防衛動員準備法這個法的立法精神是什麼你知道嗎他是為什麼要立這個法他具體核心內容你知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":17149.192,"end":17164.429,"text":"我講他主要就是也希望能夠提供在這個青少年對這個全民國防然後對地方整個當國家有一些這個災害或者天災或者一些絕對不是災害啦你看啦你看這個全民防衛動員法"},{"start":17165.891,"end":17188.633,"text":"他怎麼講的?第二條動員區分階段有準備階段跟實施階段實施階段是只要總統有發布緊急命令的時候或者暫時發生總統發布緊急命令所以就只打仗的時候要去處理啦然後第三條上面就講得很清楚嘛動員實施階段統合運用全民力量全民當然包括學生嘛要支援軍事作戰"},{"start":17190.253,"end":17198.884,"text":"所以絕對不是只有你講的防災這個法的精神就是戰事發生支援軍事作戰非常清楚"},{"start":17200.623,"end":17218.592,"text":"所以我在這邊跟拜託部長很多人為什麼沒填如果說陳如你講的就是要去防災或幹嘛後勤支援我相信很多學生也不見得不願意啊老師也不見得不願意發可是到目前為止沒有人講得清楚你講一套罰寫一套"},{"start":17220.473,"end":17230.466,"text":"去年講一套現在講一套然後資安還外洩那你在做這個過程當中誰又能夠對你產生信任感勒敢去填那個表格勒"},{"start":17232.005,"end":17258.552,"text":"全民防衛動員法是涉及到行政院各部會所以它涵掛的是整體那教育部處理的只有學校的這一塊那就是學校學校所以不好啊還是社區關懷還有避難引導還有服務你仔細不好意思你仔細去看全民防衛動員準備法以及各個學校寫的計畫並不是你講的這樣這個法是行政院各相關部會共同參與的學生今年服勤只是其中一小塊"},{"start":17260.236,"end":17264.565,"text":"沒有那這是你講的但是我們看白紙黑字法律跟計畫講的跟你不一樣啊"},{"start":17265.578,"end":17290.964,"text":"就是不一樣啊那一般如果大家出現那種意見上的差異就要看白紙黑字啊你自己看這個是高雄市我剛秀過的動員準備計畫啊他就講說如需青年協助勤務得向本市聯合應變指揮管制中心申請啊那聯合應變管制中心要幹什麼都可以啊復勤的範圍就是避難引導社區關懷公共服務那是你講的啦那你看這個計畫上面等一下不要急你看計畫上面"},{"start":17294.705,"end":17302.446,"text":"下面說動員實施以學校為基地以務實行動展現全民防衛機制防災叫防衛嗎"},{"start":17305.25,"end":17328.397,"text":"真的如果發生戰爭的時候一定會有災民需要收容那不是防衛嘛你是防衛災民喔你要把災民趕出去喔你是照顧災民不是防衛災民不要玩文字遊戲上面寫的防衛就是暫時防衛我現在是跟你講如果你想的跟寫的不一樣那你要叫他們修正嘛現在教育部的問題就講不清楚大家才會質疑嘛那你一直在這邊凹這個東西有意義嗎你講的跟寫的就不一樣啊"},{"start":17329.517,"end":17342.983,"text":"最後我問一下部長昨天總質詢的時候那個我看到卓榮泰院長講說班班有鮮奶的政策因為實施非常困難所以如果學校有困難就不要他們繼續勉強他們喝鮮奶有這句話嗎我看到新聞是這樣寫的"},{"start":17347.859,"end":17371.056,"text":"我想讓學童有一個更好的蓋子跟蛋白質補充上次我們也有這個專題當時你聽我講因為我沒時間我講一講一下因為當時講了很多斑斑喝鮮奶的問題教育部當時有承諾要解決那最後就可以落實斑斑有鮮奶結果昨天卓榮泰院長講的是說如果無法落實的話我們就不勉強那些學校喝了這是什麼跟什麼啊"},{"start":17375.306,"end":17400.266,"text":"這什麼跟什麼?你要去解決問題嘛!我們這個政策我們落實很困難學校我們就不勉強你學校不是不想喝學校是喝不到所以還是請部長本池的斑斑有鮮奶的精神讓斑斑都有鮮奶不要變成兩人喝一瓶鮮奶謝謝那部長請回喔謝謝葉元志委員的質詢再來我們請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":17410.106,"end":17412.37,"text":"主席有請部長我請部長委員好部長好"},{"start":17421.99,"end":17448.522,"text":"113年前有一群充滿理想報復的人皆肝其意推翻帝制他們的夢想是建立一個民有、民智、民想的民主共和國他們的理想是打造一個自由、平等、博愛的國度因為這正是創建中華民國的先烈拋頭如灑熱血所秉持的精神請問你知道這段話誰說的嗎?"},{"start":17452.065,"end":17459.837,"text":"這是總統在這個國慶這個慶典上所說的非常好,這個賴清德總統說的你認同這句話嗎?這段話嗎?"},{"start":17472.231,"end":17485.297,"text":"本席也非常認同賴總統的這段話那他特別在國慶文告當中提起來他當然也是認為這內容是重要的嘛對不對因此要向國人同胞來強調但是本席想請教部長"},{"start":17487.177,"end":17512.946,"text":"賴總統提到這一段中華民國建國史在現在的課綱跟課本中哪裏可以找得到哪一冊的歷史教科書中有提到這能不能請國教院來部長你自己都不知道你要找國教院來可以嗎可以啦當然是可以啦這個在歷史領綱裡面上是有的有啊我告訴你啊你有看過嗎"},{"start":17515.837,"end":17538.066,"text":"點頭點那麼心虛本席翻遍高中歷史課本賴總統講的這些完全不存在主題是教學的高中歷史絲毫不提中華民國的建國史好像這個我們的中華民國是1949年才憑供而出你有注意到這個狀況嗎跟委員報告齁你剛是一個方向一個架構方向架構沒關係啦我說過齁因為主席時間很嚴格啦"},{"start":17542.027,"end":17565.359,"text":"你接下來會後找一本教科書送到我辦公室來好不好可以嗎可以可以有寫到剛剛賴總統講這段話中華民國建國史你找一個高中教科書給我做得到嗎方向跟精神你不要跟我講方向精神我要你教科書白紙黑字有沒有不可能跟賴總統講這段話不可能中華民國建國史你拿一個高中教科書白紙黑字給我可以嗎"},{"start":17566.927,"end":17570.149,"text":"你以為只有我翻遍高中歷史課本找不到啊我目前的國中歷史有嗎?"},{"start":17595.236,"end":17623.133,"text":"欸?又認住了?不會吧?那個是一個撰寫的一個我説過了啊又撰寫體力了喔?不會吧?按照編年史教學的國中歷史也只資質片語提到保陸運動爆發辛亥革命孫中山擔任中華民國臨時大總統這部分內容請問放在哪裡?放在國中的八年級的歷史課放在中國跟東亞史當作外國史來教啦沒錯吧?中國歷史"},{"start":17624.284,"end":17652.464,"text":"中國跟東亞死嘛跟外國歷史併起來交啦東亞的外國歷史併起來交啦 對不對所以我要說什麼賴總統說革命先烈拋頭如灑熱血揭竿起義推翻帝制建有自冥想的民主共和國我很遺憾啊賴總統講得這麼真誠但在我們偉大的教育部去中化的課綱課本裡面"},{"start":17654.801,"end":17681.734,"text":"似乎很怕學生學到這一段歷史啊那我想請教部長你可不可以把賴清德總統這段話放進我們高中歷史裡面恢復我們中華民國建國史啊可不可以可不可以我想我們還會是這個尊重這一個課綱委員你們找的課綱委員是去中華民國課綱委員你們在尊重去中華民國課綱委員然後中華民國課委員就沒有中華民國建國史好棒的回答謝謝部長"},{"start":17684.842,"end":17690.586,"text":"部長請回謝謝羅志強委員的質詢我們下一位請翁曉琳委員質詢部長辛苦了先喝口水有請部長"},{"start":17708.459,"end":17729.87,"text":"委員好是部長好因為本席之前在清大教書所以我其實一直對於大學要實施EMI英語授課的議題非常有興趣想要多了解而且也關注這個政策實施的成果那麼我們知道其實行政院在2018年就核定了"},{"start":17731.311,"end":17756.704,"text":"2023年的雙語政策那麼也要這個教育部呢也是積極要推動這個雙語政策那麼在這個整個目標理念有寫了6大目標其中第一個是涉及到高等教育的專業英語力那就這個部分的話我是認為說其實現在大學實施的成果裡面可出了一些問題那首先我想請教就是部長您擔任"},{"start":17757.765,"end":17771.136,"text":"中山大學校長也多年了吧?好像是六七年嗎?將近八年所以在中山大學因為您是中山大學教授然後擔任校長請問一下您自己本身有沒有用英語授課過?英語授課過?我們過去英語授課沒有所以您知道英語授課可能會產生一些什麼問題嗎?"},{"start":17783.307,"end":17784.068,"text":"委員長鄭英耀列席報告"},{"start":17803.182,"end":17812.627,"text":"各縣縣所裡邊徵聘了10%的外籍老師然後也鼓勵許多的年輕老師或者這個專業他們可以用英文來說因為你們在下一年度裡面本席有發現你們又編了7億的經費要去支持EMI的課程尤其是要強調在大一的時候的英語課程就是所有的專業的學術英文專業英文的課程那都要用這個英語開"},{"start":17829.696,"end":17841.229,"text":"但這個事實上已經過去很多的專家學者那麼也有新聞媒體有在報道有關於全英語授課的一些缺點我們看一下那麼基本上他可能會有四個問題第一個專業知識被簡化了"},{"start":17844.633,"end":17852.221,"text":"第二、教育呈現M型化,有資源的學校可能聘得起外籍老師或是請會英語擅長的教授來上課。但是如果沒有資源的學校的話,這方面可能就實施得很差。另外在授課品質方面也低落。"},{"start":17864.153,"end":17888.638,"text":"同時最後有可能會影響到整個的國語文的這個能力但我認為說這個其實嚴重的不僅是大學高中小教育其實都是如此那麼接下來我們再來看的就是說科技在進步那麼事實上在我已經進入了AI時代了我們的外語教育的政策的思維是不是也應該轉變大家知道現在用Google的翻譯已經可以翻譯100多個國家的語言"},{"start":17890.518,"end":17897.523,"text":"那麼同時呢要利用手機做即時的通訊翻譯也是非常非常容易在這樣的一個情況之下我們還需要英語授課嗎用全英語授課而且本期有發現一個問題喔就是在大學實施的EMI的教育的問題麻煩下一頁就是教授就像剛剛校長講的剛剛部長說的"},{"start":17914.11,"end":17925.849,"text":"教授有學術專業但是他未必有英語教學的專業不是說是會用英文會講英文的他都具有英語教學能力同時學生用英語學習的成效是很差的"},{"start":17926.934,"end":17953.576,"text":"此外本席也擔心一點就是未來大學教授在選材的時候基本上都是找留英美語系國家的學者我們知道很多的領域比如說像德國也很強日本、法國這些國家的學術也都很強那未來這些學者進不來因為進到大學之後學校第一個問題就說不管他的留學背景第一個問題就會說請問你能不能用英語授課"},{"start":17955.816,"end":17976.872,"text":"我跟委員報告,確實這一個我想許多的產業在全球布局,我們怎麼樣讓新世代有更多的一些生涯發展的一些可能,跟放眼全世界,我想這是我們努力的。但是委員剛才所提的那些怎麼樣在教學、雙語教學裡邊、全語授課裡邊的教學品質,事實上我們也要求各大學要有一些"},{"start":17977.492,"end":17978.754,"text":"本席基本上希望部長能夠正視這個問題,要求現在大學裡面實施10%的EMI的教學基本上是不合理的。"},{"start":17994.952,"end":17998.773,"text":"我認為這應該就是開放讓每個大學能夠自主自治去決定去思考哪一個專業哪一個學院哪一個課程它適合用EMI而不應該定KPI的指標然後最後本席也希望就是教育部能夠一個月之內提出全英語授課EMI的執行狀況部長就事後書面回應好嗎我們會把這個相關的一些報告"},{"start":18019.778,"end":18024.141,"text":"謝謝翁曉琳委員質詢部長請回我們下一位請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們部長有請部長"},{"start":18050.495,"end":18065.268,"text":"委員好部長好想請教一下卓院長昨天說這個當初斑斑有鮮乳的政策施綠憲州要從長進議那也有一些學校學校長也在擔心喔這樣是代表這個政策要持續實行下去嗎"},{"start":18066.189,"end":18067.71,"text":"所以部長目前這個政策斑斑喝鮮奶的政策從各地方的落實度都偏低"},{"start":18093.854,"end":18117.742,"text":"那以我所在的大台中地區來講居然其實只有7%是選擇核鮮乳換句話說93%都大概是選苞酒乳那原因當然就是冷鏈與物流不足的問題那其實我想要解決這個問題也有一個比較好的方案就是因為當然都會區嘛就可以跟所謂超商跟賣場的這個冷鏈系統做合作那我想請問如果用這樣的方式"},{"start":18118.902,"end":18120.903,"text":"謝謝委員關心希望能夠讓我們的協同能夠有更好的一個鮮乳的一個飲用其實我們也因為這樣一個政策推動"},{"start":18136.907,"end":18156.862,"text":"在這個之前全台灣有10個縣市已經在做那他們也就是班班結合團上或者部長我只是要說應該是要想辦法努力在年底跟他們合作達成50%以上吧然後希望明年從簽約的時候可以達到70%吧我們也希望說各縣市的幾段好的經驗能夠分享能夠克服這些困難好那部長這樣有沒有可能還是你目前不確定"},{"start":18161.653,"end":18190.506,"text":"沒有,我想我們朝那個委員所提的那個方向在努力好,因為時間有限喔另外在這個鮮奶選項中我也要提醒部長從國人的這個乳糖不耐症的照顧的研究顯示我國乳糖不耐症的比例可以高達88%那我也注意到這個政策照標裡面也有提供豆漿的選項但是我要建議你其實針對這樣的族群市面上其實有提供所謂的無乳糖的鮮奶可以喝那未來是不是可以提供這樣特殊的鮮乳的選項"},{"start":18193.115,"end":18204.171,"text":"我想這個農業部都會把這些納入在未來我們在滾動式修正的時候所以以上我提出的都是需要評估的行措施那我要拜託我們部長是不是可以麻煩將相關的評估報告會後交給我"},{"start":18206.357,"end":18233.727,"text":"好的好不好那再來當然另外一部分就是有這個若農協會理事長也表示先辱行情是18元保酒辱現在你們農業部的是說14元先辱是16元那中央訂定的價格實在太低所以這個部分也不能夠說沒有完全沒有配套之外當初訂定的價格就不合理也怕說到時候這樣子會不會導致被迫廠商將低品質的供應給學童這部分是不是可以重新檢討價格"},{"start":18237.321,"end":18253.069,"text":"謝謝委員因為確實我們因為政策推動以後發現這個整個包括專配怎麼樣去增加現場老師的一些額外的負擔我們看到嘉義縣也有這樣的一些對我的問題就是說這個你們會重新檢討嗎這個價格的部分會這個價格的部分我想怎麼樣把分專配送這個部分也能夠適度的還一些成本我想"},{"start":18262.194,"end":18277.104,"text":"我另外想請教部長當初斑斑有鮮乳的政策是農業部提議還是你們教育部提議的這個案子有沒有報到行政院還是說這個政策基本上是府方或是院方直接交辦我想當時他確實農業部是看到為了照顧我們本國的這個糯農然後希望能夠及早因應這一個紐西蘭這一個這個液態鮮奶的一個進口免稅的一個進口"},{"start":18290.913,"end":18293.859,"text":"所以你的意思是說是農業部發起的對不對確實確實是他發起的可是現在看起來好像互相甩鍋這樣齁"},{"start":18301.36,"end":18305.283,"text":"最後部長我還想要再講一下這個有關危老校舍的部分啦最後也想要問一下我國現有的老舊校舍有超過50年以上有2000棟那屋齡超過30年以上有8000棟以上"},{"start":18324.46,"end":18342.719,"text":"那我們也未處在地震帶但是2022年之後中央主管機關並沒有針對老舊校舍的這個補強計劃相關的專案也沒有編相關的預算以因應那這部分想要請教部長有沒有統計如果50年以上的老舊校舍要拆除重建經費大概是多少"},{"start":18343.26,"end":18346.402,"text":"我們事後書面回應好嗎?或者是您再跟他辦公室說明?我們事後再提這個公委員提這個書面的報告好OK 謝謝部長"},{"start":18370.001,"end":18380.03,"text":"部長請回謝謝廖偉祥委員我們現在請林思明委員質詢下一位才是沈博洋委員謝謝主席請部長有請部長"},{"start":18392.765,"end":18411.31,"text":"委員好部長好部長有關臺大新竹校地的問題來教教部長喔臺大是在大概25年前民國89年取得竹北臺大校地喔當時信誓旦旦的話大餅提出竹北校地的一個分校的一個規劃計畫"},{"start":18413.19,"end":18429.195,"text":"當年我們西竹縣政府也展現了誠意辦理限制二期區段徵收然後捐贈了大概國道一號旁的土地面積大概22公頃現在的市值大概五六百億當時只有七十幾億"},{"start":18430.735,"end":18450.338,"text":"但是我們看到臺大取得這個校地當時的一個計畫的內容我們看一下那個PPT就是臺大是講說要配合新竹森林園區的建設提升國家經濟的發展與競爭力然後未來要把這塊地裡面除了公學院以及各系所外"},{"start":18451.099,"end":18468.29,"text":"臺大、竹北分部應包含醫學研究園區、電子研究園區、管理及推廣教育園區但是我們目前看到臺大除了一個在10年後蓋了一個必增管以外到目前為止仍然是校替一片荒蕪"},{"start":18469.83,"end":18496.387,"text":"完全看不到有任何的一個依照原來的計畫來做任何的建設所以我想請教這個部長對於說臺大沒有履行承諾那最近臺大當然也跟新竹縣政府做了一個報告說陳文章校長他承諾他將對臺大準備校區做一個完整的規劃新建教學的研究大樓請問我們部裡面有掌握這樣的規劃進度嗎"},{"start":18497.848,"end":18517.258,"text":"是的,謝謝委員關心竹北的這個的開發這個校地怎麼樣擴大它的一個效能確實在這個新政府在原來擱置的20幾年我想國發會跟國科會也都看到了然後跟台大"},{"start":18518.118,"end":18521.422,"text":"部長,這個大的一個規劃的目標我們都很清楚。我現在只是說它的規劃的一個進度你掌握了嗎?"},{"start":18534.557,"end":18557.989,"text":"目前這個整個全責就由國科會在因為國科會對科技學這個基地這個園區他是比較熟悉的部長臺大是你是主管機關吧對於臺大有沒有依照當初他的一個跟新竹縣政府一個不一樣的目的去執行整個校地的開發這部分你應該去促成吧"},{"start":18558.849,"end":18581.468,"text":"我們確實在行政院內部會有開會然後國科會、國科會跟教育部我們在跟這個臺大陳校長我們內部是有開會部長我希望你多多關心這塊地的一個真的就是有沒有依照原先的規劃臺大依照他的承諾去履行說這個依照原來的計畫去做執行"},{"start":18582.368,"end":18602.917,"text":"我現在有一個假設性的問題我也請教因為我們等了很久我們當地的居民啊真的叫做不期待就不會受傷害期待傷害就很深看到那麼有價值的一個精華地段台大現在還一直閒置在那邊喔屢屢開會也是沒有下落"},{"start":18603.837,"end":18622.605,"text":"所以如果台大沒有按照他的承諾去履行的話部長你贊不贊成說在這邊因為你今天的一個業務報告裡面也提到說你要這個在各個產業園區你鼓勵要設立實驗高中嗎現在新竹縣政府也有一個實驗高中的一個計畫"},{"start":18624.005,"end":18642.443,"text":"您願不願意贊成或者協助推動臺大把5公頃的土地返還給新竹縣政府作為我們實驗高中的用地應該跟委員報告因為臺大現在目前因為國化會跟國科委都在協助臺大"},{"start":18644.645,"end":18649.349,"text":"我希望教育部能夠促成臺大把五空井的土地返還給新竹縣政府作為實驗高中你能承諾嗎?"},{"start":18672.446,"end":18680.091,"text":"我希望我們來努力好最後一個問題另外一個就是說那個因為時間已經超過了我知道主席主席我還有一個很重要的議題就是有關那個30秒30秒不行不行因為已經超過40幾秒快要一分鐘那個就是說我們國中小的35億的經費因為大家議事員都還沒有休息跟吃飯"},{"start":18698.384,"end":18726.129,"text":"請部長這35億的經費我們部裡面已經收到沒有?你不回應那收到沒有?新竹縣政府已經提報上來了嘛我希望新竹縣政府我希望教育部盡速的把這35億我知道是要從公共建設基金裡面去撥補我希望那個你能夠盡速的把這35億最後核定多少金額給我們一個做一個書面的資料跟我答覆謝謝"},{"start":18727.509,"end":18728.69,"text":"我們請沈博洋委員質詢"},{"start":18757.965,"end":18760.266,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請部長,謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。部長好,因為我好像基本上沒有來過教文,所以我不知道這邊的信封寫語。這個質詢我覺得很重要的時間是,像紐西蘭或者一些澳洲的規定,其實問問題的可能兩分鐘,回答是兩分鐘。"},{"start":18782.236,"end":18798.454,"text":"其實回答是很重要的一環但我們看到很多都是打斷或是不給回答或者問一些難以回答的問題我覺得是蠻令人困擾的但我今天想要問兩個問題就好了一個是跟這個大漢技術學院那因為我今天有追整場的諮詢所以我知道這個培育委員已經問過了"},{"start":18799.335,"end":18825.652,"text":"所以我就不問那個裡面的細節跟畢業好不好換下一張我想問一下就是說因為他現在已經停招了那我稍微盤點了一下在東部地區現在計專像宜蘭兩個台東一家花蓮會變成沒有然後再來就是這個進修學分班本來就是聖慈濟的護理嘛那本來還有大漢的這三個不同的系那這樣會變成說要做這些進修學分的也變少那我覺得這種城鄉差距這個教育的資源會變得比較大"},{"start":18826.132,"end":18847.464,"text":"那我自己在台北大學嘛,像台北大學之前進修學分班其實也是想要說要不要繼續經營我記得教育部那時候也說就已經不多了希望因為台北那麼多人要上課但花蓮人也是需要這些啊所以我不知道這一方面就是大漢這件事情發生以後除了那個畢業學生之外現在往後跟東岸就東部這一邊的這個教育資源的規劃是什麼"},{"start":18850.018,"end":18873.899,"text":"確實謝謝委員關心區域的這個交易的資源跟機會那當時大漢技術他其實是從我的觀點來看他是一個良善的他希望他在財務結構的情況下還可以支持所有的教職員工的一個退休的一個經費而且加碼一到三個月按照年齡這個他服務的年資我想"},{"start":18874.98,"end":18894.306,"text":"這其實就私立學校要退場我覺得他就這個層面他是負責任的但是在這個退場機制裡面他當然他也優先會協助學生在區域裡面來安置那如果他沒有辦法安置那就是教育部會來協助同樣給予一些必要的一些資源跟支持"},{"start":18896.067,"end":18925.265,"text":"花蓮來看就直接的叫東華大學那慈濟大學因為這個慈濟科技大學他們也合併了他事實上這個整個邁向一個更完整的一個綜合型大學我相信他能夠提供這個花蓮地區的這些民眾或者一些青年的一些進修各方面的一些我相信他還是可以有一定程度的一個能夠來協助這個不管在職進修或者年輕人的一些學習"},{"start":18926.105,"end":18951.799,"text":"對,他們的資源是在那一邊,但問題是畢竟現在大漢就是停招了嘛,所以他就是有一個缺口在那一邊,那如果說現有的學生移轉,現在看東華或慈濟要不要收嘛,這是我們知道的事情,但我問的是說未來,就是未來很明顯資源有一個缺口,那有沒有可能有這樣一方面的計畫,看之後如果有這方面的話是不是可以這個有一個書面或者什麼之類的,我們到辦公室來討論這件事情,因為我覺得這件事情很重要。"},{"start":18952.919,"end":18970.903,"text":"現在還剩一分鐘我想問一下千人計畫的事情就是這已經有點久了2019年的時候因為這個朱鳳蓮自己有說台灣有72名專業人才有加入了這樣的一個計畫那我們當然不排除他隨便亂講但無論如何我們可以看到中國在全世界各地都在展開這樣的一個千人計畫那當時幫我換下一張就是陸委會這邊他那時候有提過"},{"start":18974.804,"end":18993.266,"text":"就是說未經許可不得參加但我想問的是有沒有可能我們之後呢有沒有可能問我們的教師能不能夠主動申報比如說他今天到底有沒有參與中國的計畫並不一定是前人計畫只要是類似的跟統戰相關的這些交流如果他們有參與的話是不是要主動申報有沒有這樣的一個機制"},{"start":18994.844,"end":18994.984,"text":"謝謝主席,謝謝部長。"},{"start":19022.908,"end":19029.751,"text":"部長請回,謝謝沈博洋委員時間控制我們下一位請吳立華委員質詢吳立華委員謝謝主席,有請部長"},{"start":19052.44,"end":19061.095,"text":"委員好部長好前幾天文化部跟園民會有辦理一個國家語言臺灣原住民族語言的論壇"},{"start":19062.421,"end":19088.486,"text":"那這個當中呢有非常多來自全國各地各級學校的族語老師齊聚一堂為我們的族語方向呢去找解方那當然我今天在這裡來問教育部就是希望代為建言反應然後尋求解方因為畢竟還是要回歸到教育部這邊來幫忙那最主要是說現在有一個現象"},{"start":19089.866,"end":19118.291,"text":"開設主語找不到老師而且越往上面的一個學習階層學習的人越少老師們提到說最主要的原因就是學生因為現在的主語認證制度他考上了中級之後他就拿到了加分的門檻他就停止學習所以想要跟部長反映的就是學生學習主語的誘因大家都覺得也需要做分級制度"},{"start":19119.111,"end":19133.921,"text":"老師的部分呢也是需要做分級制度來支持為什麼因為我們來看一下現在的主語人力的一個現況我們現在教主語的有一成是來自於現職教師去監課教主語"},{"start":19136.443,"end":19151.345,"text":"有一成是現在107年之後的原住民專職族語教師但是呢他的名額不多絕大部分八成的族語人員還是來自於所謂的教資也就是教學支援2688的人員"},{"start":19152.987,"end":19165.276,"text":"那麼在這個地方我們很辛苦的就是說第一個老師不足但是呢他是高齡化因為年輕人呢他也不願意投入這個跟我們推動主語其實是背道而馳那當然我們希望主語專職化是目標我們也希望老師們都希望我們朝向這個目標把名額變多我相信部長也支持但是問題是出在什麼呢"},{"start":19178.866,"end":19198.214,"text":"每一次開這些失陪班啊開了幾十個班每一次都只有個位數的人報考那年齡偏高斷層很嚴重而且呢高級的門檻很高所以呢大家都覺得誘因不足那麼這個部分我們就是要來寫決辦法嘛所以大家都在講說"},{"start":19199.494,"end":19217.089,"text":"不論教學支援人員或專職教師能不能夠把高級的一個目標降低就取得中高級特別是國小幼兒園的部分那如果不放心也希望給他們一個落日條款例如3年內取得等等"},{"start":19218.09,"end":19245.328,"text":"那我想這也是一個方法那另外就是提到教師的一個分級敘心不同的級別有不同的薪資不要同工我們希望同工但是不同酬那另外我們都在推動多元評量我們也希望足以認證方式也能多元除了現行的這種足以認證方式是不是可以增加口說能力的也可以啊他通過"},{"start":19246.249,"end":19274.95,"text":"助作的審查也可以啊我們希望開這一些管道讓更多的人願意來投入那再來就是很多人也認為說像這些偏鄉9任獎金就沒有這些教保員、族語老師即便他是族語專職教師所以像這種都是誘因不足那或者是我們的一個健檢福利等等那甚至是他擔任族語老師之後呢學校不讓他出去"},{"start":19275.771,"end":19275.911,"text":"請教育部長簡單回應"},{"start":19302.259,"end":19319.436,"text":"謝謝委員指正,委員事實上都已經看到了問題,那我們會跟研民會認真地來有一些馬上可以立即解決的,包括這個研師語言上的一些從高級變成中高,然後在他的在職裡面再用什麼樣的方式來補。"},{"start":19320.757,"end":19320.817,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19342.229,"end":19355.054,"text":"謝謝部長因為您從小學到大學您的這個什麼問題你都能夠了解那我相信您也可以提出很好的對策那我就是反映來自全國各級的一個問題那希望會同圓明會也能夠在兩週內能夠去做一個研擬來做一個報告可以嗎"},{"start":19364.118,"end":19365.359,"text":"請教育部書面回應"},{"start":19389.656,"end":19410.474,"text":"委員好部長好部長您曾經在我們足旗的光華國小擔任過教師是的真的非常榮幸能夠從教師然後現在擔任教育部的部長我想您對偏鄉還有對均衡台灣這四個字應該感觸很深確實均衡台灣是什麼意思啊"},{"start":19411.499,"end":19433.309,"text":"我們希望台灣不要因為區域或者城鄉上的一些差異能夠許多不管在人才培育或者產業這一個各方面包括醫療資源他都能夠達到一定的當然也包含教育資源那您覺得目前偏商的小校面臨的這個最主要的問題是什麼"},{"start":19434.502,"end":19448.945,"text":"我想小校在這個部分我們因為他的整個那個場域上的一些問題我們確實對施施的這些留任包括這一個他的一個施施的延攬他面臨到一定的挑戰沒錯"},{"start":19450.026,"end":19476.938,"text":"除了軟體上面的問題以外另外一個就是硬體上面硬體上面是直接每一個學生馬上現在就要面對的問題包含活動中心的修繕補助等等我想這些都是一個很重要的問題一個具備體育功能的活動中心的修繕會被體育署要求先等國教署的活動中心修繕完成工程後才能夠跟體育署申請補助修繕活動中心內部的運動場或者是購置體育設備跟器材"},{"start":19478.499,"end":19499.864,"text":"所以就是說要外殼修好之後才能夠處理運動場地或者是體育設備那現在不管是體育署或國教署都有各自主管的輔導輔助要點那如果活動中心沒有涉及體育功能那就純歸屬國教署那如果活動中心具備體育功能那就會涉及國教署還有體育署兩個單位"},{"start":19501.964,"end":19516.371,"text":"這個問題其實不僅僅是我們嘉義的偏鄉地區其實全台灣的校舍大概有同樣的困境那其中國中小的困擾也蠻多的現行規定是要做完外殼工程跟體育設施沒有辦法一次發包解決活動中心跟場地與專業體育設施的問題"},{"start":19518.112,"end":19536.024,"text":"那我想請教這個部分假設未來如果全部由國教署負責那另一個問題就是一年一案的補助限制那請問如果學校受得的補助限制超過一百萬元這樣隔年的就要暫停申請不知道這一個部長有什麼樣的意見嗎"},{"start":19536.884,"end":19559.753,"text":"這一個確實我這個進來以後在最近我也了解到這一個我們在對地方的一些補助有這樣一個限制但我現在想在對特別偏鄉成為剛才委員所提的這個均衡臺灣我們怎麼樣對偏鄉有一些更多的一些輔助我想我們內部會來做適度的部長再舉個例齁我就快速舉個例希望說嘉義縣新港鄉的越美國小"},{"start":19560.313,"end":19560.833,"text":"中文報告因為小活用中心的漏水"},{"start":19584.821,"end":19584.841,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":19600.922,"end":19622.87,"text":"我簡單來講說我是希望說學校不要能夠希望學校不要被迫分年度來處理緊急的案件這個大概是我們這次想要特別講到的因為一校一年一案的天花板他可能會造成說有急迫性有危險性都沒有辦法在極限性那邊處理我想有急迫性跟危險性的這個我們都一定會另案來處理來優先來補助"},{"start":19624.511,"end":19648.416,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝部長,我必須強調,就體育署未來會升格之後,體育部,那之後的協調是不是全部由國教署來去承擔這樣的責任等等,這個希望教育部內部來做一個討論。謝謝委員,謝謝,謝謝部長。好,部長請回喔,謝謝陳冠廷委員,何新淳委員,何新淳委員,何新淳委員,徐富奎委員請質詢。"},{"start":19657.106,"end":19660.127,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們鄭部長有請部長委員好部長辛苦部長這次山陀爾颱風屏東縣135所學校裡面有7成受損那大概損失金額將近8600萬那已經正式通報到部裡面跟工程會那請教部長目前我們處理的進度"},{"start":19686.946,"end":19708.068,"text":"我們事實上這一個只要收到申請,我們會馬上進行審查。是,部長因為這一次我們的風的影響很大,造成學校很多的樹木嚴重受損。那從這一次颱風的經驗裡面,我們也發現其實有些學校裡面的樹種,這個枝葉很脆弱。"},{"start":19708.709,"end":19710.15,"text":"謝謝委員關心,確實因為這一次的颱風這一個也出現了這一個就是剛才委員所說的這個手勁比較淺的"},{"start":19731.279,"end":19755.32,"text":"全部大概全部所以我們希望利用這一個災後的一個重建裡邊以後要種的一個樹種能夠有一個比較完整的一個周延的一個這樣的一個考量那也跟地方政府在這方面交換了一些意見他們也覺得這是一個未來應該要利用這一個災後重建裡邊能夠徹底能夠來做一些改善的"},{"start":19756.288,"end":19773.208,"text":"副部長那另外我知道部長之前有來屏東的時候我們屏東縣的大家長周縣長也有特別跟部長請命就是針對我們這個潮州地區希望來蓋一個針對年輕人的一個圖書館那因為我們現在屏東市我們有一個總圖"},{"start":19774.409,"end":19792.93,"text":"那我們在客委會支持之下在我們竹田鄉也有另外一個客家總圖那潮州是一個大生活圈左邊大概有20萬的人口那也有很多的年輕人在這邊工作生活那所以針對這個年輕人的一個需求能不能請部長來支持蓋一個草青圖書館"},{"start":19794.571,"end":19805.84,"text":"謝謝因為他事實上是一個空間的一個重新再活化再利用那我們覺得這對這個平衡區域的一些教育資源給年輕人有一個更好的一些這個創不管閱讀或者創新創業的空間我們也最近"},{"start":19811.164,"end":19811.644,"text":"委員長鄭英耀列席"},{"start":19830.089,"end":19831.11,"text":"委員剛才所看的那一個因為這一個颱風整個那一個鋼駕鋼柱"},{"start":19849.646,"end":19875.296,"text":"整個把這個圍牆廚房這個離港國小的這個廚房整個這個把他打穿這我們都會立即來協助改善好部長那另外針對我們現在教育部為了補充我們現在學校的一個行政人員的不足我們有針對一個國中小7到20班會補助一個行政人力那一年的費用大概是52萬但是要給保證報告這錢不夠"},{"start":19880.218,"end":19905.15,"text":"因為我們針對高中的部分我們是一年補助60萬所以縣政府他還要再負擔這樣子的一個差額對我們屏東縣的財政這個比較嚴重的吃力那另外一個本席覺得比較不合理就是因為我們現在目前有90所學校國中小是所謂6班以下的學校那他們的行政人力更缺乏"},{"start":19906.29,"end":19910.976,"text":"請教部長,針對六辦以下是不是應該給予一個支持,作為來報解人力。我來請這個國教署來演繹。好,謝謝部長"},{"start":19919.116,"end":19925.203,"text":"嚴寬衡委員、嚴寬衡委員、嚴寬衡委員謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員羅明財委員、羅明財委員、羅明財委員邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員"},{"start":19938.819,"end":19954.347,"text":"蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員徐欣穎委員、徐欣穎委員、徐欣穎委員黃國昌委員請質詢"},{"start":19965.767,"end":19989.701,"text":"謝謝主席 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感謝"},{"start":1788.435,"end":1790.08,"text":"初期委員已逐法庭人數號現在開會"},{"start":1792.047,"end":1817.99,"text":"請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年10月14日星期一90至14時15分地點群憲樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭姿等15人列席委員柯委員志恩等20人列席官員環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員主席黃兆吉委員秀芳"},{"start":1818.63,"end":1824.056,"text":"報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長經濟部就臺灣的碳備收費標準決議進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭子等31人提出質詢均經環境部部長"},{"start":1836.31,"end":1858.372,"text":"經濟部產業發展署署長楊志清及各相關主管等及其答覆委員賴會員業員之所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定通過臨時提案二項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1862.742,"end":1866.724,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有的話我們議事錄確定那本日會議已成為邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢。現在我們介紹現場的委員跟列席官員陳昭之委員王振旭委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":1894.578,"end":1918.356,"text":"勞動部部長何佩珊部長勞動發展署署長蔡孟良署長勞工保險局白立貞局長勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長職業安全衛生署周梓蓮署長"},{"start":1920.798,"end":1929.149,"text":"勞動及職業安全衛生研究所李伯昌所長綜合規劃師王厚誠師長勞動關係師王厚偉師長勞動保險師陳美女師長"},{"start":1939.592,"end":1947.618,"text":"勞動福祉退休師 陳倩倩勞動條件及就業平等師 王維生勞動法務師 傅惠芝秘書處 丁玉珍人事處 江碧玲"},{"start":1966.775,"end":1972.857,"text":"政風處周志信處長、會計處林美信處長、統計處梅嘉源處長、資訊處劉淳坤處長、財產法人職業災害預防及重建中心何俊傑執行長"},{"start":1992.683,"end":1993.425,"text":"接下來請勞動部和部長報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2004.254,"end":2027.914,"text":"主席各位委員先進各位記者女士先生大家好謝謝委員會的邀請那麼我來向各位委員進行本部的業務報告那麼我們首先為了因應最近山頭额颱風的災後重建工作我們啟動了臨時工作津貼專案主動聯系地方政府調查零工用人需求"},{"start":2028.594,"end":2046.944,"text":"到10月7日地方政府提出有家園重建的用人需求一共是873人那還有包括前面0403地震跟颱風影響的勞工我們也持續依從優重塑重建的原則推動各項措施那麼擴大僱用獎助及訓練獎勵"},{"start":2048.171,"end":2055.212,"text":"也在這裡向災民以及勞工朋友致上最深的慰問與關懷期盼我們災區早日回復平安其次我們會落實賴總統520的談話有政府在勞保絕對不會倒為穩定勞保的財務擴大社會投資那麼我們也落實了在114年度的總預算"},{"start":2073.018,"end":2100.068,"text":"續編一千兩百億加計以後特別預算三百億元中最後一年執行的一百億元總共是一千三百億元的撥補勞保基金那麼總計我們從一百零九年度到現在六年以來一共撥補了三千八百七十億元搭配多元的投資運用方式那今年六月勞保基金餘額已經首度破造七月勞保基金整體收支順差"},{"start":2101.108,"end":2104.411,"text":"是22933億整體收支順暢那累計的基金累存餘額來到1兆1002億那麼截至今年8月整體勞動基金收益達到8870億收益率是14%"},{"start":2120.265,"end":2127.249,"text":"我在就任以後就提出撥補就是改革我不是來砍年金的那麼勞保基金目前處於相對安全的水位請廣大的勞工朋友不要擔心勞保絕對不會倒年金一定領得到那麼大家也不要強領極領也要疫情委員能夠支持並通過我們勞保的撥補預算"},{"start":2142.937,"end":2145.738,"text":"再來,我們要落實賴總統及卓議員長加薪的承諾照顧邊際勞工所以我在去上個月的9月4日主持最低工資審議會感謝我們所有勞資學證的審議委員充分討論合作"},{"start":2159.463,"end":2167.551,"text":"也一致支持以通過將在明年把月薪提升為28590元條幅為4.08%時薪也等比例調升為190塊那麼我要強調這次最低工資的調整有257萬的勞工受惠本國勞工占86%移工只有14%所以這不是只有移工受惠"},{"start":2182.566,"end":2197.232,"text":"那麼尤其我們對最低所得20%影響的家庭這是最好的照顧因為他薪水的一半都要拿來維持生活所需所以我們這是最低工資調整為了照顧邊際勞工的需求"},{"start":2200.253,"end":2210.276,"text":"也跟委員報告因應這次最低工資的調整中小為企業的承受能力也是我們最低工資審議委員會關注的重點所以我們小為企業在面對最低工資調漲的外在因素我們現在計畫透過數位轉型跟人才培訓幫助他們強化營運的體質所以我們也跟經濟部交通部共同提出了30人以下中小為企業的"},{"start":2225.5,"end":2234.082,"text":"數位轉型補助方案以救安基金部分支應由經濟部來執行輔導小微企業培訓員工數位技能與準保錄數位軟體應用保證穩定員工就業加速他的數位轉型升級其實我們面對服務業缺工的問題我們用擴大溜用橋外生開放橋外生從事旅宿服務業來處理我上任以後我就講缺工不能等於低薪"},{"start":2252.685,"end":2278.24,"text":"但是我們也會正面來面對積極來協助企業解決缺工問題尤其是服務業的缺工那主要因為我必須考慮青年以及中高齡主要的就業的領域都在這一塊那麼所以我們還要考慮外國人從事服務業他還有語言文化跟生活敏感性的問題在為了所以我用我們先用擴大流用牆外聲來處理我們已經在6月修法公告"},{"start":2279.501,"end":2303.171,"text":"條高評點至總分到200點。8月的時候刪除橋外生評點至名額上限,讓所有在現在在臺就學畢業的橋外生都可以留在臺灣就業。那也開放副學士以上的橋外生可以從事旅宿服務業的工作。未來我們也會配合國發會的攬財計畫,研議來修正就業服務法,讓橋外生可以申請個人工作許可來留臺。"},{"start":2305.087,"end":2323.099,"text":"9月我們也邀請了這一個勞資學證代表有來調整我們的移工政策鼓勵製造業承接國內已經有轉換雇主意願的移工就是我們所謂的即將成為中階人才的資深移工那麼他如果在國內承接5%的話他的總配額的限制可以提高為45%另外我們農業移工的部分也已經在擴大開放的8000名"},{"start":2335.506,"end":2357.592,"text":"韓去年的一萬兩千名總共已經到達兩萬名我們今年再擴大八千名的開放其實在擴大跨國勞動力開放的部分臺印的MOU的執行也是我一個重點工作那麼我們九月已經開始計畫邀請印方來臺進行工作的雙邊的工作的協商的這樣子的一個進度"},{"start":2359.551,"end":2373.314,"text":"再來我們這個會必須我們也鼓勵開發中高齡勞動力提升婦女勞參率也是我們的施政重點從109年中高齡專法到現在中高齡勞參率已經提升3%了今年8月大概是67.16高齡勞參率是9.84%我非常感謝貴院通過勞基法第54條修正案以及中高齡專法的再修正案"},{"start":2386.937,"end":2389.359,"text":"這對我們推動中高齡勞參率的提升有絕對的正面那麼我們也在今年8月30號公告放寬繼續雇用高齡者補助計劃可申請補助的禁用比例從不單一比例調整為三級制"},{"start":2403.75,"end":2414.243,"text":"除了現行的30%以外增列20%及25%兩個級距那麼我們最近本部累計在全國成立已經到達49處的銀髮人才服務據點也補助了83個部會據點"},{"start":2419.888,"end":2444.632,"text":"預計每年提升10萬名的中高齡以及高齡的勞動力其次是我們整體婦女的勞參率目前只有52%相對OECD國家還是比較低那因為照顧問題那麼造成45歲以後的中高齡婦女勞參率下降是非常嚴重的問題那麼我們計劃最近提出我們已經在在這個進行這個積極的"},{"start":2448.793,"end":2477.085,"text":"以及處理當中就是我們的多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計劃那麼規劃由公益專業團體監管跟優質仲介合作來聘僱外籍移工讓移工讓這樣的看護移工適用勞基法以一對多的方式讓陪伴服務照顧彈性化幫助婦女緩解照顧需求而且能續留在職場本計劃預計在年底前上路我希望能夠來提升婦女的勞參率"},{"start":2478.365,"end":2496.94,"text":"再來我們對培育青年即職人才非常的重視我在八月的九月九月的時候也帶領著我們國際青年的這樣子的我們的技能青年到法國里昂參加有技能界奧林匹克之遇的第47屆國際技能競賽"},{"start":2499.202,"end":2520.056,"text":"當然他們融獲了二金三銀十銅28優勝一共43面獎牌得牌率86%是近三年新高顯然我們的國我們我國青年的整體技職力傲視世界得牌的職類相當的廣泛那麼明年本部也在進一步舉辦亞洲技能競賽透過舉辦國際賽事讓臺灣技術接軌國際"},{"start":2524.219,"end":2542.054,"text":"也希望藉由以賽代訓打造學習用整合平臺深化產學合作進一步提升青年就業率再來是外送平臺外送員的勞動權益我們最近已經跟交通部合作那麼交通部也預告了研修汽車婚約管理規則把運費"},{"start":2545.999,"end":2557.217,"text":"計車運送員的運費的這個明定在這一個項目裡面那麼我們希望能夠未來作為外送工會跟外送平台業者來協商外送報酬的重要的依據"},{"start":2559.21,"end":2586.862,"text":"最後我們在這一個精進企業勞權相關的永續資訊方面也有進度在8月29號已經邀請經管會跟專家學者召開永續報告書的勞權永續資訊揭露已經獲得共識就是把薪資揭露非主管職務的全職員工的薪資平均數以及薪資中位數變動比都能夠未來在ESG的報告書裡面來揭露"},{"start":2588.002,"end":2614.608,"text":"再來是強化我們戶外的高溫勞工的保護那麼我們在8月1號修正發布的職業安全衛生設施規則那麼在戶外高溫維熱達到最高等級的時候部主應該在作業場所設置遮陽設施以及可降溫的設備並準備可休息的場所是以上非常謝謝委員們的邀請那麼以上就是我們最新的業務報告謝謝"},{"start":2616.701,"end":2640.929,"text":"好謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘那10點30分截止發言登記那委員如果有書面質詢的話請在會前提出與其不受理"},{"start":2641.357,"end":2654.043,"text":"那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時動議10點30分截止收案現在請登記第一位的委員陳昭芝委員發言謝謝主席有請何部長何部長"},{"start":2665.823,"end":2666.023,"text":"臺電用了80億的"},{"start":2686.181,"end":2703.334,"text":"改建工程但是對於煤倉這種高危險的高風險的區什麼高風險的就是他對他可能產生城爆或者氣爆這種高風險區竟然驗出了一大堆不合格的防爆電氣管配件這件事情是很難令人諒解的那這件事攸關"},{"start":2705.956,"end":2723.427,"text":"整個場區還有附近鄰居的安全當然更攸關工作人員的生命安全我先把這個背景讓部長了解一下那我相信部長知道在根據國家的CNS3376標準他講得非常清楚爆炸性的環境你使用的金屬的這個"},{"start":2725.128,"end":2744.684,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2744.764,"end":2770.384,"text":"他的製造過程當中根據CNS14438標準他會加入這些金屬來提高他的求化率求化率高是好的這是基本的背景請看你讓部長繼續瞭解我們來看看這個防爆管這個配件的金屬材料要比什麼呢就是拉伸強度比一比大家可以看到這個圖最優秀的最好就是求墨鑄鐵但是他的標準是需要求化率"},{"start":2771.024,"end":2797.447,"text":"百分之八十以上這是最好的一個材質那它優於這個可斷鑄鐵但可斷鑄鐵不知道是不是因為這個環境的因素環保的因素所以國際上停產大概超過10年所以應該是買不到了那另外它又更優於灰口鑄鐵灰口鑄鐵是絕對不能用的因為它身強度不夠外面的那個水溝那個道路上的水溝蓋就是灰口鑄鐵做的"},{"start":2798.348,"end":2818.714,"text":"基本上它根本拉伸強度是不行的根本不能作為防爆管的配件那另外有一個剛剛我特別提到下面這個縮墨鑄鐵因為它含了那幾個金屬沒太高那這幾個金屬會幫助燃燒所以不能用所以部長一看大概就知道剩下什麼可以使用那我們來看看台電當時的採購要求"},{"start":2821.235,"end":2845.05,"text":"他這個要求是對的他要求可斷鑄鐵那可斷鑄鐵買不到了已經停產十幾年那鍍鑫鋼就是所謂的鋼鋼是可以用的甚至強度更好的這個球末鑄鐵那這個球末是目前最理想的材質我想這個部分是很重要那我要強調是說廠商交貨的時候他交給台電只能是貴部勞動部經過這個勞動部TS認證"},{"start":2848.692,"end":2852.417,"text":"要經過貴部來認證的可斷鑄鐵或窮木鑄鐵或是鋼要經過勞動部來認證那這樣關係就開始進來了那簡報上是今年的8月6日職安署到台電大林電廠去抽查"},{"start":2864.761,"end":2882.582,"text":"部長您可以看到抽了10樣幾樣不及格6樣不及格這非常嚴重這個深芳蒙玉這兩家產品不斷密封這個接頭圓形接線和油刃都被驗出有縮狀石墨縮狀石墨就是剛剛我談到的有含那幾個金屬"},{"start":2883.503,"end":2902.219,"text":"他是會助燃的那另外你可以看到這個鄭賀的這個鄭賀公司這邊有那個廠商的名字鄭賀的圓形接線盒出現兩種鑄鐵一個是灰口鑄鐵一個是球狀石墨鑄鐵球狀石墨鑄鐵是ok的可是灰口鑄鐵他的求化率是零欸"},{"start":2903.626,"end":2923.558,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2923.758,"end":2927.761,"text":"我要談的是勞動部負責TS認證那也有勞動部該負的責任就是說聽到這裡為止部長您覺得勞動部可以負起什麼樣責任因為畢竟TS認證是由貴部來進行的謝謝委員委員在追尋這個問題的時候我就有注意這件事我們也請我們職安署那麼我們在10月1號我們有把樣本的那個材質"},{"start":2953.103,"end":2969.401,"text":"出篩的報告含算給臺電要求他進一步送實驗室測試他的樣本材質那麼因為他疑似不當張貼啦他疑似不當張貼我們提了是安全就是假的他不合格貼的就是假的有有有這樣的問題喔那麼我們在10月1號把他移送檢調查處"},{"start":2974.787,"end":3002.243,"text":"我們已經主導移送檢調查處了我們也要求他10月8號還給他們的廠商要在45天裡面提出材質符合的檢測報告我的背景是藥學你知道食藥署在管理很多藥廠的時候他進了很多品質規範從早期的GMP到後來是GMP到現在PIX GMP都希望能夠跟國際接軌這第一個那他這個品質規範的目的是讓所有產品一致你不能說我去受驗的時候是最優質的"},{"start":3003.343,"end":3010.467,"text":"然後我最後製造的就另外一回事就是品質的一致性是非常高的那你對於有問題的廠商你不但平常要進行定期的查核而且要做不預警的甚至機動性的檢查因為他已經有前科了吧等等等等部長我讓你看一個法條"},{"start":3022.054,"end":3037.503,"text":"為什麼我覺得勞動部還是要負責任這個是機械設備器具形式檢定作業要點第12條第一項檢定機構受理申請後應為檢定並為必要之測試及生產技術品質一致性的查核"},{"start":3038.163,"end":3054.283,"text":"就是跟藥品管理概念一樣就是你給了他認證許可證你後續還有一些查核的這個動作所以我們到底就是說第一個到底廠商當時拿了golden sample就是最優質的產品讓你去檢驗呢那事實上生產的時候是另外一件事情"},{"start":3054.804,"end":3078.336,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3078.476,"end":3082.318,"text":"平常的時候他就應該要有一個必要的測試我們是應該要我們會來檢討好嗎我請這個治安署部長對我還是希望說研究有一個因為事實上那個蒙玉的產品下一張他驗收的時候是有送金屬中心"},{"start":3096.203,"end":3112.568,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3112.968,"end":3122.196,"text":"產品在裡面呢所以我想就是說勞動部一定要想辦法去避免這樣的事發生那我要談的是就是說8月6號的時候其實就發現產品不合格那事實上在2019年本黨的那個洪國昌委員他沒有提出一些在台電廠裡面有使用不合格的產品可是這個產品後來就說要去檢查要繼續去追查但是都沒有報告"},{"start":3138.53,"end":3160.325,"text":"所以部長是不是說最後一張我想說有關貴部的新聞稿就說那時候我們提出這麼重大的事件那是不是說貴部的新聞稿以後能夠就不要都說是檢驗單位不對是廠商不對是台電不對就是你能做的部分勞動部該做的部分就自己成全起來"},{"start":3169.731,"end":3170.951,"text":"有請我們何部長有請何部長"},{"start":3195.501,"end":3212.641,"text":"部長早 到2025年也就明年我們國家發展委員會預估我們已經要進入到超高齡社會再加上我們今年上半年度生的孩子大概只有6萬3876位"},{"start":3214.741,"end":3214.861,"text":"是當然"},{"start":3234.614,"end":3249.973,"text":"所以因爲少子化日益嚴重問題行政院推出了少子化的對策計畫在部會分工裏邊勞動部的任務就是有研議彈性條件跟提供性評價的一個薪資補助還有持續推動企業"},{"start":3252.176,"end":3280.401,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3280.802,"end":3289.495,"text":"的狀態有幾件?還有人員平均受雇的期間有多久?因為這個牽涉到數據我可以請我的同僚先來回答一下嗎?"},{"start":3291.209,"end":3317.931,"text":"是,感謝委員關心那個企業托育的部分那我們勞動部是配合衛福部這協助企業來設置相關的托兒設施比如說設幼兒園拉托嬰中心勞動部會給予補助那也跟委員報告一下這個113年我們補助的不管是設立那個托兒設施措施或者是提供托兒津貼都是一個友善職場的一個措施"},{"start":3318.692,"end":3346.543,"text":"我請你們回答的是到底有多少家我們補助了445家的企業去設立這個提供相關的托兒社事務措施那分別不同的因為我剛剛講有社區公共托育家園跟職場互助教保還有事實上是只有跟幼兒園簽約的這是不同的對那這個部分都是我們在新公法裡面所提供只要企業有提供因為他會看到依照企業員工的一個需求看是要用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":3347.183,"end":3361.613,"text":"來提供給員工相關的一些措施那我剛也問說有沒有發生所謂的勞資糾紛甚至受聘顧的時間有多長人員平均他托兒幼兒園的勞資糾紛我們這邊沒有相關的統計資料"},{"start":3368.218,"end":3397.237,"text":"我們這邊倒是可是這事實上是因為也是你們再少子話對這裡邊你們承擔該承擔的應該要充分掌握啦是因為服務提供者是人嘛多年因為私立幼兒園的教保人員勞動條件一直是沒有辦法擺脫低薪苛刻跟不當管理所引發的社會問題這是我覺得這是勞動部應該承擔因為既然事實上你們也是對這其中的一個部會裡邊要去承擔的那"},{"start":3398.82,"end":3406.23,"text":"因為這就是我們幼教人員的一個狀況我跟委員補充報告我們最近3年有針對學前教育業實施勞動條件檢查1170加次有108加次有違法"},{"start":3413.92,"end":3432.415,"text":"那麼有罰款的274萬所以我們先來看今年3月齁全國教保產業工會針對公部幼教人員的新生調查裏邊結果顯示58%要從事照顧之外的不列入工時的一個工作那"},{"start":3433.135,"end":3446.351,"text":"而且他們2020年就有調查今年我還等他們新的報告可是我們看到2020的調查的話私立幼兒園在工時上9點3小時是沒有包含午休代工時間43.7%工作超時10小時然後50%的未領取加班費或補休"},{"start":3454,"end":3477.119,"text":"32.6%的教保人員的勞保是被高薪低報的所以也要問我覺得我一直在提醒勞動部這也是我上個會期就有質詢的一個課題這事實上是一個血汗的職場那我們的孩子又要靠他照顧然後最後他因為血汗而可能有對孩子不當對待的情勢可能會發生所以這上個會期質詢之後我不知道勞動部有沒有提出一些因應的策略"},{"start":3478.032,"end":3499.929,"text":"那各位委員報告我們其實有辦理幼兒園勞動條件專案檢查有就是在從這幾年都有在做對然後這一個我們也希望因為幼兒園他又牽涉到教育部他其實也有要做的阿是是是當然當然當然有"},{"start":3501.57,"end":3501.89,"text":"大專院校"},{"start":3524.195,"end":3543.79,"text":"大概43所的院校裡面有120個幼保科系那每年大概有4200位的教保員因為我過去也在幼保系任教那幾乎很多時候我們的療動條件不好很多我的學生大概畢業後都去哪裡去新加坡因為五六萬的薪水跟臺灣事實上是很難相比加上我剛剛講那種療動條件這麼差"},{"start":3546.032,"end":3564.36,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3564.48,"end":3566.101,"text":"委員這樣好嗎?因為其實這件事我們應該要跟教育部一起來共同面對"},{"start":3583.354,"end":3606.055,"text":"因為它是一個幼兒產業它的一個經營形態會不會就是說這個可能也牽涉到這個部分還有包括我們在幼兒園的這樣子的可是部長如果你沒有去查勞動條件很不良的話就持續這個人員就是流失如果我去新加坡可以五六萬的薪水的話我帶台灣三四萬然後我要工時"},{"start":3606.596,"end":3607.036,"text":"午休待工時間"},{"start":3626.684,"end":3653.145,"text":"一直是被認定是應該是要認定是工作時間的時候所以不知道針對午休工作代工的問題桃園市政府已經先開始做了他2022年就自行做連續工作時間的事性司法性的認定所以時間該時間應該列入工時我根本沒辦法午休嘛小孩在睡覺可是我也沒辦法午休啊那為教保人員來領取更多工資加班費的依據我不知道這個可不可以"},{"start":3653.567,"end":3658.832,"text":"在一個月內也有全國性的一致的司法性的認定不知道部長這邊同意嗎"},{"start":3660.953,"end":3686.265,"text":"我們可以來做處理我們來對我們先我們來願意來來處理好嗎是那再來就是照顧比齁應該是一個法定的工作量這也是我上個會期一直在講說我就是只能照顧15個孩子可是我照顧到22個孩子這是幼教現場請你們勞動檢查的時候希望能夠去做這件事情可是始終都一直跟我講說喔這是教育部的事情可是教育部又不做勞動檢查所以我認為本席認為說"},{"start":3689.426,"end":3716.174,"text":"是不是你要跟教育部溝通還是事實上是你應該去承擔你畢竟事實上是我們的勞工者的最高的主管機關是不是應該要來做這件事情我們跟委員報告照顧比這是教育不定的啦因為他會基於他的這個幼兒的這樣的照顧需求那是不是應該那他這就是法定的一個工作量可是你們到了現場呢照顧22個你們大概也就漠然也就接受"},{"start":3716.534,"end":3730.165,"text":"可是問題我就是只能照顧15個甚至以孩子現在的狀況我們都希望下降到12個更何況是照顧22個可是幼教現場很常是照顧負擔比過於他的原來的法定可是你們在勞動檢查的時候並沒有針對這一塊去做查核所以我希望說未來是不是應該要查核"},{"start":3735.129,"end":3760.126,"text":"那因為我時間有限所以是不是公布也能夠公布教保幼教人員的的勞動契約範本來讓他們知道一般約定事項甚至特殊約定事項禁止事項救濟管道是什麼可以定在這邊那所以這4點希望午休的代工時間應列為連續的工作時間剛剛部長已經答應了那師生筆也請你們"},{"start":3761.227,"end":3786.869,"text":"跟我們的教育部商量要列入勞動檢查的方針是你們要做的事情那還有公佈幼教人員的勞動契約範本還有更重要的是我們希望推動我們的勞動契約約定的事項完整那就麻煩你們後邊給我書面報告好謝謝委員好謝謝林玉琴委員的發言謝謝何部長的答詢我們下一位請陳建輝委員發言"},{"start":3795.242,"end":3800.564,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員早安那我也想請部長謝謝請何部長部長早部長你們把113年定定為這個營造業墜落打擊年並且呢希望我們的職災死亡人數要低於68人可是光是今年上半年就已經有40位營造的勞工墜落而且致死"},{"start":3823.795,"end":3833.864,"text":"半年的時間已經到了你們想要低於數字的六成那因為我就有上半年的數據您會知道到至今9月10月已經有多少人了嗎到9月底66所以距離你們的68所以今年你覺得可能沒有辦法了"},{"start":3845.629,"end":3862.427,"text":"我承認確實是有困難那麼我要給委員報告因為我們營建業他的有很多相關的問題必須要我們要來面對那麼包括我們要推動子彈法的修法也是這個原因他主要是第一個建築工程他現在就是大規模"},{"start":3863.428,"end":3867.912,"text":"我先給你看一下110年的時候你們也訂定了一個營造業減災加強年也是想要下降死亡結果跟你們今年的"},{"start":3891.329,"end":3914.462,"text":"這個營造業墜落打擊年一樣你只是有一個口號結果呢110年定了這個營造業減災加強年之後啊你看一下這個表的死亡人數定完了以後是越來越高我覺得本席比較難過的是這些人是中壯年他可能是一整個家庭的支柱然後你定了口號"},{"start":3915.202,"end":3933.709,"text":"你也定了目標你今天還把自己的目標設在68結果現在已經66人墜落死亡致死所以你110年111 112到底做了哪些事很顯然他沒有很很大的效果啊你現在是要告訴我說"},{"start":3935.49,"end":3945.218,"text":"113年你預計要修改哪一些環節而不是跟我描述說這些工程的複雜度有多麼的嚴重然後有多麼的缺工你應該是去從110年開始修改吧"},{"start":3949.179,"end":3966.094,"text":"對我跟委員報告我們就是這樣所以我們正在加緊推動自然法的修法我們希望能夠把這一個營造業裡面不當的工程文化啦因為他們大概用承攬嘛用承攬來規避責任然後這個有很尤其是最"},{"start":3966.815,"end":3987.524,"text":"最發胞的業主他本身所以你的意思是說有要承擔相關的責任他們有做教育訓練教育訓練的時數也符合你們的規定還是你們有去督導嗎其實那一些措施檢查各方面我們能做的都盡量都有在執行可是問題是你牽涉到他的那我跟您說一個數據後來你們去調查110年為什麼你們沒有辦法落實減災加強"},{"start":3994.967,"end":4022.868,"text":"是因為勞工未接受教育訓練者就有37人其中以建築工程的27人為最高都已經告訴你答案了啊是這也是也是相關的問題啊因為你要刻意這一個施工者可是這個你不用等職安法修法你應該就可以做到現在有在做可是現在有在做顯然還不夠那你有把今年這66位的原因都已經列出來了嗎"},{"start":4023.869,"end":4049.592,"text":"我們有在分析當然裡面移工比例也很高所以對尤其是移工他的職災的發生率本來就比較高所以我們現在也在強化移工的這個關於職安位的這個母語這方面的界面的提供對希望能夠給他一些教育訓練所以你的意思是說之前你們沒有做他的母語的職安前面就有做前面就有做所以你現在是現在還要再更強化"},{"start":4050.753,"end":4060.082,"text":"顯然在這方面因為大概我們今年分析了一下移工跟一般的比例大概是8比5所以這66位有八成是移工"},{"start":4063.321,"end":4089.458,"text":"跟委員報告其實發生這些災害這些勞工沒有做教育訓練我們有發生這個問題所以我們擴大了營造業的那個愛情教育訓練我們發指案卡訓練合格才讓勞工到現場工作但是臺灣很多中小型的微型工程包括是冷氣安裝或是物理安裝都小型微型工程確實我們有利有味道這個部分我們正在檢討所以我們跟地方政府勞檢機構跟地方的"},{"start":4089.838,"end":4110.913,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4112.022,"end":4132.469,"text":"那個我們很快要進行預告那麼希望能夠在年底能夠送到行政院然後下會期出好下會期來進行來立法院雖然你已經確認你這個是跳票了但是我還是希望你從現在到12月不要再給我們一個很驚人的數字好嗎有些事情現在就可以做了對好下一個"},{"start":4135.575,"end":4152.31,"text":"我們看一下這個是今年9月的新聞相信部長也知道有一個美國醫旅協會他有很多的廠商是我們臺灣的廠商嘛大家都知道Nike這一類的好發布了一篇聯合全國全球50個知名服飾很多都在臺灣做的"},{"start":4153.931,"end":4167.126,"text":"那他是不是寄錯對象他居然是寄給經濟部而不是給勞動部他裡面都是提到臺灣的移工呢為了取得工作的機會在母國就要支付高額的仲介費用抵達臺灣以後還要繼續支付"},{"start":4168.928,"end":4193.694,"text":"服務費阿等等的這些沉重的債務讓他們沒有辦法在勞動環境中發聲包括行動受限阿或者是他們的文件被扣押超時提出申訴抱怨工作環境差也沒有辦法集會也沒有辦法因為懷孕或試圖轉換雇主而遭到遣返等等的所以他在這個信裡面講到都已經涉及我們國際勞工組織提出的強迫勞動指標"},{"start":4197.535,"end":4203.561,"text":"如果沒有好好的處理 我們有可能會受到一些國際大廠的制裁 這點您同意嗎這一點我要跟委員澄清本國沒有強迫勞動 那麼我們針對這一個指控 我們也發出了信用稿澄清對 因為我們也跟經濟部一起會同 因為這是這樣這是一個民間組織"},{"start":4221.597,"end":4223.659,"text":"台灣現在的移工人權真的是數一數二啦"},{"start":4239.853,"end":4257.649,"text":"就是我們你想想看我們在我們的移工一樣是用勞基法場工我們的家事移工我們也要求比如說像招募費方面我們我懂我懂所以我把您的新聞稿叫出來你隔天就緊急發出一個新聞稿你的意思是說"},{"start":4258.389,"end":4285.871,"text":"包括我國的法令禁止我國仲介向移工收取登記費用也建議外國政府降低外國仲介的費用還有與來源國合作推動職聘制度這是你寫的新聞稿喔我想問說具體你是建議哪幾個外國政府那你的建議他們是否有去做呢因為建議是一回事啊有有有四個來源國我們都在跟他雙邊協商當中而且菲律賓跟印尼"},{"start":4287.893,"end":4295.785,"text":"印尼都已經有職聘的我們的雙邊的協商的這樣子的一個好那我們放上次部長說的幫我放一下"},{"start":4300.478,"end":4319.673,"text":"上次您的執聘是這個意思欸所以我也想知道還是你要續聘的時候才要做這個意思是說真的實務上現在只能先從續聘計畫先做了那因為事實上跟委員報告執聘制度是很困難的不容易"},{"start":4321.014,"end":4344.566,"text":"我指的是印度所以你其他4個來源國你的意思是說你從一開始進來你就願意加強執行那他們的仲介費用你下降了多少比例呢仲介費用我們台灣是不能收的我說你建議外國政府這是你的新聞稿寫的那個是我們會建議來源國你最多就一個月"},{"start":4345.646,"end":4368.468,"text":"那他有做嗎?因為你有建議他有做嗎?我知道對可是因為你要回應這些國際組織嘛所以我也必須要知道說他有沒有給你回饋嘛是有我們的雙邊國每一位那個代表來拜訪我們或者是我們去跟他們智商的時候我們都拜託這件事情之後我會繼續追"},{"start":4370.029,"end":4372.63,"text":"這件事情那這邊也給您一個很具體的建議這是我們國內的一個很大的廠商傳產他是第二代那他被國外的客戶呢視察以後說要跟他斷絕這個合約他本來以為是勞工環境結果是人資這個國外的廠商覺得呢我們每個月還有跟這些移工收費是不合理的"},{"start":4394.039,"end":4402.592,"text":"那他說比如說你收到這個全球衣旅你有沒有發公文去給我們所有臺灣的這些衣服相關的廠商有嗎"},{"start":4403.963,"end":4416.246,"text":"這就是我們要跟經濟部要來加強這方面的合作委員我要跟您澄清其實這個是企業面臨的困境我們應該是就是我是給你具體的建議因為他有他自己的解方他自己的訪談寫得很清楚他說他本來不知道這件事勞動部也沒告訴他後來呢因為他有在國外留學所以他查了一些法規他發現的確違反了"},{"start":4428.109,"end":4449.145,"text":"所以他後來跟仲介合作所有仲介要收取的費用是他自己來出喔所以每一位移工他總共工廠有600位100位移工他每個人幫他們出兩萬多塊結果變成他跟仲介的關係非常好仲介會派專人來服務跑文件跑流程會帶他們去看病然後他還幫他們蓋宿舍"},{"start":4450.706,"end":4466.452,"text":"結果他現在這些續約率從原本25%增加到75%也大幅下降他的管理成本因為他不用一直在換人後來他因為這樣子做也增加了美國之外很多歐洲開始跟他簽訂單所以"},{"start":4468.493,"end":4487.659,"text":"他已經在自救了那既然你已經收到這些外國組織是不是也應該提醒我們國內的廠商不然他的報導裡面是在寫說他一開始被國外廠商批評的時候他根本就不知道有這些事情甚至仲介還跟他說你就回說有啊你有幫他出這樣就好了"},{"start":4488.618,"end":4488.978,"text":"接下來請王育明委員發言"},{"start":4524.062,"end":4526.183,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長部長好,今天我關心的也是職安的問題因為我們可以看到這幾年來職安的傷亡人數是不減反增特別是在去年這個傷病給付的件數其實是創新高死亡給付的件數也是創新高"},{"start":4550.034,"end":4560.362,"text":"所以其實我在上半年的時候就針對這個問題提出質詢那當然在當中你看到今年特別是上半年只在死亡人數120人當中營建業他還是佔了第一名"},{"start":4564.773,"end":4580.528,"text":"他的這個墜落死亡還是重重之重我們想要優先去處理的問題那你們其實自己也提出了上半年你們就說你們仿造日本有這個迎劍墜落打擊年這個口號其實是很響亮"},{"start":4582.149,"end":4602.218,"text":"這個大家對你們的期許也很高但是執行下來你們前陣子已經對外講了就是今年設定的目標要減少的死亡人數是68人以下但是現在看起來光是到6月份就已經來到40人了所以其實如果按平均半年半年來看"},{"start":4603.058,"end":4620.564,"text":"今年恐怕是破功了沒有辦法打到這樣一個目標那你們有沒有去檢討為什麼其實你們特別今年還有一個墜落打幾年這樣一個計畫那反而越做這個墜落人數還要比去年就是比你們設定的目標更高為什麼會這樣"},{"start":4622.537,"end":4639.997,"text":"委員跟您報告我們的人數是有比去年降低可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的原因在哪裡我想知道你們自己初估的原因在哪裡是剛剛就是跟我們報告確實因為包括營建業本身他的這樣的"},{"start":4641.118,"end":4657.227,"text":"．"},{"start":4658.769,"end":4688.129,"text":"在關於那個承攬責任上面我們第一個希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任那麼再來他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化用這樣來規避責任就各自負責啦我們現在要當你平行發包之後你一定要指定其中一個要負主要責任然後統合管理這樣子我們要找一個頭出來要不然每個人都說沒他的事這樣子對那所以你們現在的墜落打局裡面你們的宣導對象是誰你們找不到頭"},{"start":4689.43,"end":4709.509,"text":"目前在實施上面,你們到底是找誰?當然是有,就是各營造工地,然後各業主,我們甚至都把營造業找來對,都還跟他們開,就是喝咖啡,然後勸導他們因為其實這個數字會說話嘛,這個證明說你今年上半年施行到現在,恐怕是有漏洞,也不夠落實"},{"start":4710.71,"end":4734.313,"text":"雖然你說你們有在做那這個就應該要檢討所以那個檢討不只是你要說你要去修這個治安法那個是原水啦那進火的部分你們自己應該要通盤檢討到底你們在落實上面出現了什麼問題執行上面是不是都沒有到位你們說有做但是沒有到位嗎你們去宣導記得上班裡面說你們做了很多冊子冊子可能沒有人在看啊"},{"start":4735.114,"end":4758.465,"text":"就是他沒有進到他真正的SOP裡面這個才是問題所以我要求你們要檢討接下來我就要讓你看到這個個案這個是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾大家在歡度中華民國的國慶但是在雲林產生了重大公安他其實是兩家工廠一死一傷而這兩位都是外籍義工"},{"start":4759.325,"end":4780.716,"text":"死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍移工而這兩家工廠它的特性它都是那種輸送袋然後有一家是這個水泥預辦廠那這個水泥預辦廠我們去找出這個資料這一家水泥預辦廠它是累犯了它過去在職安裁法的紀錄上面累計已經達到4次了"},{"start":4781.741,"end":4810.46,"text":"那他從2022年就開始2023年2024年今年的1月今年1月還有受到處分喔然後在今年10月這個勞工好險後來他的頭沒有被整個殺死埋掉如果埋掉的話恐怕也是救不回來就是非常的危險所以你可以看到像他這樣類型的公司屬於高風險而且你們已經累累次去裁罰他"},{"start":4811.42,"end":4833.768,"text":"但是在我們職安法36條像類似這樣子的他如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之餘是可以要求他部分或全部停工但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理是到10月份這個新聞爆出來比較嚴重之後你們才要求勒令停工"},{"start":4834.528,"end":4857.195,"text":"你們說你們要修職安法那我就問你們光職安法36條你們的這一些職安的檢查措施裁罰停工你們有落實嗎像這樣子的一個公司工廠它其實是高風險你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的而從今年的1月到現在的10月這當中你們又做了什麼"},{"start":4858.544,"end":4860.606,"text":"他真的有改善嗎?"},{"start":4860.606,"end":4884.805,"text":"這個個案你瞭解嗎?我可以先請我的署長可以來署長請謝謝委員循詢這樣子的一般火流場確實是它有一定的風險程度我們過去檢查涉及它如果是有立即危險之餘就會停工那如果沒有涉及危險之餘我們相關法條就處於裁罰3到30萬的條條依照它程度不想增加這是我們一定的標準作為程序那這個個案10月10日當天我們統一就去做現場的災害調查"},{"start":4885.806,"end":4912.245,"text":"因為他是在做混凝土的打除的時候老公跟著人跟沙子一起掉進去倉裡面所以後來來搶救人就完沒有受傷就把他救回來但是我們發現這個作業程序這個場域商業做就有風險所以我們就把針對這個場域就給他做局部停工所以這個案是像這樣處理的那我們也謝謝委員給我們提醒很多事情我們這個停工處分的那個界線如果我們要再定往嚴格一點我會再召集各檢察機構來做這樣子"},{"start":4914.404,"end":4943.343,"text":"這個這個才發現的一些討論是不是能夠再做更加強有些委員提醒我覺得齁這個治安署你們應該要針對勞動職場環境他的這個風險你們是要分級的有些就是高風險像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險另外那一起死亡的案例他也是輸送帶他是垃圾回收場他人已經被攪拌那多麼恐怖的事情啊就是他那個整個執行的過程當中沒有一刻你是可以就是有疏忽的一疏忽"},{"start":4943.883,"end":4957.308,"text":"人不是重傷就是死亡所以類似這一種他只要犯過一次第二次你們就要很嚴格那這一家已經是第4次了所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行坦白講不是只有修法的問題了你們連落實上面SOP的管控上面怎麼樣把這些高風險你說你們後來抓出了銀件業這是一類高風險你們有一個墜落打擊你"},{"start":4969.153,"end":4995.999,"text":"就是按照這個風險程度去做我贊成用這樣的方向做但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收只要有發生過這種死亡重大的你們都應該要回過頭好好去檢視你們的整個就是去督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞是不是過於寬鬆你如果過於寬鬆業者不會有警覺"},{"start":4997.421,"end":5017.082,"text":"但是這件事情我覺得是嚴重的就在國慶日一死一傷都是輸送帶而且另外一個我要提醒移工的教育他們的這個職業安全的教育恐怕都沒有到位這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備我覺得這個是不對的"},{"start":5018.829,"end":5019.049,"text":"接下來請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":5054.597,"end":5082.198,"text":"主席好,我們一樣請何部長您好部長您好我請問一下我這兩天看到的新聞就是關於台電外包商引進移工的問題那台電有台電的說法勞動部也有勞動部的說法那我第一個問題電器成裝業可以請移工嗎目前是不行的那"},{"start":5083.252,"end":5086.679,"text":"銀罩業在一定條件下可以申請移工,那電氣盛裝業是銀罩業嗎?"},{"start":5095.686,"end":5119.411,"text":"螢照業在一定條件下可以申請移工那電氣盛裝業是螢照業嗎?它是屬於螢照業嗎?它屬於廣泛的營建工程的一環可是它的問題出在它必須考那個照那是目前公司沒有辦法考你們說台電配電的外線工程是公共工程在符合公共工程的金額跟工期就可以申請移工"},{"start":5120.412,"end":5133.688,"text":"但是所謂的配電外送是由電氣承裝業承攬那本身電氣承裝業的工作人員限制就很多照你們的說法只要是公共工程、承包金額、供期符合其他都沒有關係是嗎?你們的廣義是這樣定嗎?"},{"start":5135.29,"end":5141.797,"text":"委員這一種他所聘的移工只能從事體力工作不能從事這一種要考照的這種電器裝配的這樣的工作這就是為什麼我要委員跟你解釋我們跟台經濟部現在協商的重點就是"},{"start":5150.567,"end":5162.652,"text":"我們只開允許台電已經引進這一種基層的體力工的移工對不對他也許待久了他變資深移工那他有一定程度的語言溝通能力之後我們可以輔導建議台電可以輔導他們考照來轉而從事這一種電氣成裝業的這樣的工作啦"},{"start":5169.654,"end":5190.97,"text":"我們只開放到這裡對我看到是這樣就是說你說如果不是的話直接引進我們的我們的那個執行管路工程做勞力活這個大家都知道是那配電外送是電氣承裝業承攬你們一直談的就是配電外線的部分要讓台電的這個包商可以請移工去修護台電的這些電纜設備不然這個台電啊"},{"start":5195.873,"end":5217.707,"text":"這個外包商早就可以申請移工了那為什麼我們經濟部還跟我們勞動部來求援呢委員他們現在確實這方面是缺人啦對啊我要講的意思就是說你們你們就是你們我看到新聞就是說你們這兩天講的你還是告訴他這個這個"},{"start":5221.269,"end":5242.843,"text":"你沒有辦法幫忙他嗎?我沒有辦法現在直接去允許他從外面直接引進移工然後進來做這種要考照要上電線桿的工作我現在還沒有開放這個那我問你啊那台電一天到晚被這個動物在攻擊啊那不過人維修怎麼辦?不是常常這樣嗎?"},{"start":5245.546,"end":5273.28,"text":"其實委員跟您報告就是我們現在就建議說第一個他這個本身的過去臺電都有建交合作啦就綁本國的記職生嘛其實早年他們都這麼做的當然現在可能我們本國的記職生不夠所以我們希望他能夠去信一些朝外生來對我剛剛有講嘛我們增加四類嘛增加英語、泰語跟越南語還有印尼輔助語這些技術性的徵兆那我想請問一下你是考中文還是考他們的母語考用他們母語考"},{"start":5275.078,"end":5297.157,"text":"就是這個就是用他們的母語也可以輔助考這個就是便利讓他臺電現在有的已經要成為中階技術人才的資深移工考啦所以他考了這些證照之後就能夠可以擔任這個技術的工作委員我要跟您報告這一種功能的重點在於說因為他認定的標準是什麼就是你只要考試考過了就可以"},{"start":5298.387,"end":5301.609,"text":"所以到時候我們在進行考核的時候就是說我們在考核他們的時候我們的人也都要懂他們的母語"},{"start":5326.769,"end":5335.078,"text":"啊不是不是不然我們怎麼查是他要幫我們的的是我們用母語所以所以他你沒有你不是用中文考啊"},{"start":5336.895,"end":5360.142,"text":"有中文可是也同時有母語的輔助啦就是翻翻譯有翻譯的文字在旁邊這樣我因為這是關於安全的問題對對對對對我覺得說未來你們要怎麼查核怎麼樣去讓這個事情執行的更好我想我們也是因為這樣所以我們對這個開放非常的慎重我現在就是沒有開放他直接從外面另外剛剛我也看到就是說他"},{"start":5361.543,"end":5381.881,"text":"我們也擔心說我們培養了這些人才那萬一他留不住這個通過拿到證照之後跑掉怎麼辦這就是台電要去努力的啊可能要比較高的薪水或者是他台電其實是願意花多一點錢的啦他在花錢培育培養沒錯那我擔心的是這些人才我們留不住"},{"start":5383.218,"end":5397.15,"text":"對 這就是我們企業要去努力的好啦 那我們大家一起努力啦好不好剛剛我講那些問題還請部長你回去還是要多注重一下他們在執行上安全的問題那另外我再來請問一下我們114年的中央總預算整體評估報告裡面"},{"start":5402.354,"end":5422.232,"text":"其中有一點就直接點出我們勞保基金財務的壓力那它裡面講到移進數完成周妥財務改善的方法及法制的作業你們的業務也報告也說未來工作的重點也是這個要開源維持這個勞保財務的穩健那我看到從109年開始"},{"start":5424.614,"end":5450.305,"text":"就撥補113年114年都編了1200億又額外編列300億預算分了3年等於這幾年我們中央總共補助了3870億元所以這個這個金額是非常嚇人的那我看到你們的穩健的財務的方式大概是撥補想辦法增加保險的人口還有投資調整保費看起來這個撥補還是佔大部分"},{"start":5452.727,"end":5457.421,"text":"今年13百億明年13百億然後呢未來怎麼辦一直補嗎"},{"start":5458.715,"end":5476.871,"text":"委員我們現在補了3870億之後今年的餘額已經來到一兆一千億了所以目前基金很安全對所以這是有成效的而且撥補的成效是占主要的那世界各國委員世界各國都是這麼做的並不是說以後不會出問題我們審慎處理他"},{"start":5484.775,"end":5503.2,"text":"委員當然就是因為可能會出問題說我們一定要博補所以你說你現在很安全只是你任期內很安全對不對你是不是這樣講你的任期內只要我卸任了之後就沒有我的事了不是這個意思委員我們要對我們政府有信心這是永續發展的任何黨派執政即便政黨在輪替我想都可以兩個部會兩個在比誰的洞比較大"},{"start":5511.727,"end":5517.23,"text":"一百一十二年我看到你們的那個那個調整的方式就是一百一十二年的勞保費率是12%兩年條一次"},{"start":5533.148,"end":5538.391,"text":"我們現在11.5現在11.5明年會調到11.5明年調到11.5那114年就要調到多少?12我們那個天花板是13對吧?我們那個天花板是12家舊寶才13那就是12嘛也就是說我們在賴總統的任內就會達到就有能夠衝到天花板"},{"start":5562.801,"end":5567.667,"text":"我們明年就是要邁入這個超高齡的社會那未來給付的年金會越來越多"},{"start":5577.598,"end":5578.378,"text":"部長您的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":5593.444,"end":5611.249,"text":"委員我們已經在改革了我們除了撥補以外當然我們也透過希望能夠推動比如今年委員也共同推動了勞基法54條的修正案我們希望能夠一方面推動中高齡就業然後有推動自然延退部長請還是要多趕快把辦法想出來盡量然後盡快改善這個問題好不好好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":5622.063,"end":5644.714,"text":"我再問一個問題好了,我們看到80歲以上的巴斯量表的解套,我看到我們的對象裡面有一個被看護者80歲以上且有長期就醫記錄者,這個就以後免巴斯量表對不對?"},{"start":5646.536,"end":5669.526,"text":"那是委員的修法案對,我們現在提的嘛,對不對?您會朝這個方向走嗎?我們比較不希望用年齡來劃分,因為用年齡來劃分的話會導致...那你這裡面為什麼會有...你們寫的裡面為什麼會寫80歲以上呢?是我們修法的問題嗎?這個不是...這是80歲以上長期有就醫嘛"},{"start":5671.781,"end":5695.637,"text":"對他是有那個真正有病啦他還是要以有病為其實80歲的誰會沒病呢那很少啦那那這個這個我講就是說我想要問的就是說你長期的就醫是指一般的慢性疾病還是怎麼樣這個定義在哪裡對慢性疾病就高血壓糖尿病這種的對有那個要跟就是衛福部我們一起訂這個就醫的標準對不對"},{"start":5700.336,"end":5714.351,"text":"這個是還在研究當中啦還在跟衛福部聯誼這是在擴大多元免貧好不好盡快把這個事情打明清楚謝謝主席下一位我們請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":5731.108,"end":5756.015,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請我們何部長來前部長部長你好根據今年第4次人力需求的調查勞動部辦理的收集7月底工業跟服務業的懸缺半年以上未補時的全時的這個工作職缺對不對調查指出約有6.6萬個職位半年以上找不到人那其中製造業2.1萬"},{"start":5758.397,"end":5758.577,"text":"應對措施"},{"start":5769.2,"end":5787.897,"text":"委員我們這個調查其實是比較有意義的是他是在這個技術人力方面但是部長我想問有沒有什麼措施因為這個超過半年的基本上應該就是一個結構性的問題吧暫時性我覺得OK嘛但是我們可以理解但是這個長時間的"},{"start":5789.651,"end":5811.904,"text":"是當然委員對就是我們當然缺工已經很久了啦對那麼我們希望能夠更精確的掌握是缺什麼樣的工這就是我們這次調查的用意我跟委員報告我們這次調查比較有意義的是基層體力工其實不缺啦他比較缺的是這一種中階的技術人力所以說要怎麼改善"},{"start":5812.784,"end":5817.908,"text":"我們現在所以委員我從8月以來我們進行一連串包括中階技術人才的放寬包括我們對放寬橋外生他能進旅宿業然後也開放我現在已經有提案到國發會開放客運司機醫院護佐"},{"start":5834.4,"end":5847.427,"text":"身對這些各別的職業別那我們講個大方向啦就是基本上後面你們這次出來的數據也有一些方向我要建議給這個我們部長大部分當然就是"},{"start":5848.562,"end":5867.989,"text":"當然少子化國安的問題這是已經很久了這個缺缺勞動力這是一個很久問題可是你馬上要改善的話就幾個方向嘛比如說提供提高我們婦女的勞參率還有中高齡退休後的就業嘛對不對好那我就進一步再跟你討論一下這個中高齡就業的部分喔"},{"start":5868.869,"end":5892.078,"text":"其實單就中高齡就業的部分有很多有形跟無形的年齡歧視我這邊提供幾個數據根據這個勞動部的2021年的工作場所的就業平等概況的調查受僱者在職場上遭受歧視的樣態以年齡歧視占比最高那55歲以上工作者有9%曾經因為年齡遭受就業歧視"},{"start":5893.078,"end":5906.427,"text":"那這個yes123的部分的調查有顯示說中高齡及這個高齡者的就業促進法上路以後有57.4%的人感覺是無助於改善被歧視的情況那麼還有遠見"},{"start":5910.01,"end":5930.649,"text":"遠見臺灣影像超高齡社會大調查再問到是否認為感受到職場對於中高齡有差別待遇時只有16.3%表示完全沒有感受到反之有83%感受到年齡差別待遇前三大差別待遇包含升遷加薪機會變少"},{"start":5932.566,"end":5937.07,"text":"指揮一倍調動或降接30%所以我想要問的說這樣不友善的職場會不會變成這個中高齡就業的障礙"},{"start":5946.656,"end":5963.745,"text":"確實我們這個中高齡就業的歧視我們相當重視其實在我們中高齡專法裡面就有一個懲罰條款就是說你不可以用年齡歧視去支錢或支退人喔那你如果被檢舉的話那麼你可以被罰30萬以上到150萬以下的罰款你其實現在是這樣喔在職場的調查現在調查起來還是感覺到"},{"start":5969.628,"end":5970.37,"text":"是一個文化啦當然當然"},{"start":5981.007,"end":6004.526,"text":"我承認這確實是一個文化現象對所以其實勞動部自己也去統計去年你們裁罰的可能這個40件就有逾千萬元的罰金破千萬所以這個其實嚴重嚴重是很嚴重的事情那這也會有礙於我們發展這個部分中高齡就業的部分那我想要請問部長你有沒有什麼改善的措施或是你認為接下來還可以怎麼做"},{"start":6005.006,"end":6006.668,"text":"對目前有沒有什麼改善方案或者是計劃"},{"start":6019.554,"end":6020.915,"text":"另外就業調查中還有工業部門缺額46.2%"},{"start":6046.132,"end":6047.333,"text":"會不會有因為不夠重視技職培育重要性所導致?或者是請問你們怎麼鼓勵這個技職教育?"},{"start":6064.262,"end":6085.393,"text":"謝謝委員其實我上任以來在這方面花了很大的心力我們在全國技能競賽你想想看我們這些包括從全國技能競賽到參與世界性的技能競賽我們培育的這些國手他們雖然獲得那麼多獎甚至獲得的職位非常的多可是他們在進入到社會的時候"},{"start":6086.994,"end":6095.519,"text":"在這邊可能也是有他的落差對沒錯這個就是我們現在要來著力處理的部分對沒錯其實我們技職的這些體系的選手們要參加這個技職奧運之稱的國際技能競賽對不對對所以你說的很好我們43面獎牌在全球排名第4名"},{"start":6104.344,"end":6125.477,"text":"但是這個今年而且甚至在今年國慶的時候繼職的這些選手跟這些巴黎奧運的國手也一同出席我們國慶大會然後巡禮接受國人喝彩那總統的這個國慶文告也特別大讚兩位奪金的繼職奧運冠軍所以我想部長應該也是為他們驕傲啦覺得他們相當優秀對吧"},{"start":6126.337,"end":6150.323,"text":"好那沒錯那我們勞動部也有發新聞稿說他們是臺灣之光即職英雄那也相信他們是未來我們的這個工業部門勞動力的勝利軍喔非常好的一個勝利軍喔但是卻有選手向媒體投訴說勞動部大小眼一開始不讓他們參加巡禮讓有奪牌即職的這個選手們覺得自己不如沒有奪牌的這個"},{"start":6151.443,"end":6167.484,"text":"澳運選手而即便在勞動部爭取後巡禮的環節已經讓這些技職選手都有參加但是最後擅長的時候還要他們自己打捷運離開那相較於其他有入場的選手我專車接送這個大小也很明顯"},{"start":6168.425,"end":6182.923,"text":"所以這個你們口口聲聲說很重視但是實際行為卻是這樣子所以我想要請問部長當事務到底有沒有積極爭取呢就是說這些技職的選手他們離場的時候有沒有這些待遇你有沒有去意識到還要幫他們爭取"},{"start":6187.04,"end":6191.062,"text":"其實總統非常重視所以總統是所以我才說總統都很重視可是你們最後的卻遺漏到這個其實絕對沒有大小眼的問題選手出門比賽但你們單人房卻給行政人員住選手跟翻譯住雙人房卻住雙人房"},{"start":6209.594,"end":6227.311,"text":"那這就會很像當初的東奧一樣東奧選手一樣官員做商務艙選手做經濟艙那我覺得這個是我要提醒部長你們要注重這些細節不然上次的這個東奧事件就有一個就有一個長官下台了對吧"},{"start":6229.017,"end":6242.862,"text":"了解是那所以我要表達的事情說你們嘴巴上說的重視請真的也落實到各個地方因為技職教育體系的確是我們現在很需要發展的一個環節是好"},{"start":6245.063,"end":6270.54,"text":"那最後其實我想要在本來是想要明天再問今天就有時間再多問一下這個其實如果勞工願意在法定的範圍內加班那某種程度上也是讓這個勞資雙方能夠靈活調度人力但是根據我們財政部的這個臺財稅的第16713號的函解釋就加班46小時以上不能免稅"},{"start":6271.823,"end":6296.933,"text":"那換句話說勞工願意努力加班那僱主也願意讓勞工加班卻因為這樣的規定降低了勞職雙方在加班上面的意願和協調那我們都說越努力那越幸運要拼才會贏但到頭來卻越努力繳越多的稅金那這個部分有沒有可能請勞動部來代表勞工跟我們的財政部協調重新解釋認定免稅範圍的可能性呢"},{"start":6298.34,"end":6320.856,"text":"委員因為這個這一種就是當然啦所得是一定要課稅啦憑良心講那麼因為這個稅收也是國家財政的一部分但是這個部分就是一個邏輯上的問題啊就是他們就是因為真的需要加班而且委員這有一個悖論喔我們如果因為我們事實上我們的加班上限就是46小時除非說有雙方協商才能再超過46"},{"start":6321.937,"end":6348.268,"text":"那我們如果勞動部主動去幫46以上的這好像是我們在鼓勵加班嗎?但是現在就是因為很多勞工反映說他們需要加班嘛他們需要加班賺這些錢但是他變成是他想要賺錢那因為僱主也願意讓他加班的情況之下我們當然是就是說他們雙方都有這個意願而不是僱主逼迫他的情況之下他有意願加班的情況之下對不對那他就是需要錢嘛"},{"start":6349.048,"end":6349.068,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":6380.1,"end":6382.842,"text":"好謝謝下一位我們請蘇清泉委員謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":6395.78,"end":6409.706,"text":"我今天問你兩個問題第一個就就業安定基金第二個是東港的漁船的漁工第一個就業安定基金在第8屆議委的那個時代開始那個時候的規模差不多5億6億"},{"start":6413.408,"end":6417.893,"text":"到現在已經400億今年可能一千億了有沒有那我現在要跟你問的就是說我們台灣現在外籍看護差不多23萬那這個是每個月繳多少錢"},{"start":6432.049,"end":6450.999,"text":"兩千那如果是製造業因為我接到很多僱主的抱怨製造業五千、六千及一萬一個外籍老公來台灣僱主還要提高一萬塊怕死人,一年十二萬的部長,太貴了你這麼錢這麼多,大家都這樣"},{"start":6457.742,"end":6458.102,"text":"你寫的製造業根本找不到人嗎?"},{"start":6479.751,"end":6500.36,"text":"不會呢委員,其實製造業這部分因為我們一直都有在開放然後對他其實應該相對還算現在外籍勞工在臺灣已經快要變成我們人口的一部分了我們變成是我們同胞的一部分"},{"start":6500.874,"end":6510.957,"text":"所以可是委員就是我們救安基金對也因為這樣所以所以能夠來平衡國人就業我們今年預算293億就進帳291啦那你的支出是花在什麼地方就國人就業喔就是失業的來頂失業救基金不是不是就業訓練要給他"},{"start":6528.321,"end":6530.664,"text":"那是就業保險"},{"start":6546.738,"end":6552.361,"text":"就業保險是另外一筆錢就業保險是另外一筆錢每個月在花給這些失業的勞工一個六個月九個月一年的年齡的關係那這個是勞保局在發的錢嗎通過勞保局去給付"},{"start":6572.893,"end":6582.788,"text":"那你這個接案定基金是29個委員在掌控那以前有發生過很多弊端現在還會有嗎"},{"start":6586.461,"end":6604.455,"text":"應該應該委員你覺得最近還有這幾年有在聽到嗎我們這位署長上來之後應該他還我覺得應該還蠻透明很公正的是那你們這個委員是多久拼一次兩年一任嗎還是兩年一任無幾職出馬費初期車馬費對"},{"start":6608.379,"end":6635.585,"text":"因為去年還有人在報裡面的弊端齁好那你這樣一年有291的進帳那你的支出差不多多少我們今年預算支出也是編290億欸收支要270我們今年的支出也是編270那是整個支出教育訓練是一部分啦不過是占2%以上"},{"start":6638.508,"end":6657.405,"text":"那錢那麼多所以呢各個縣市長都要跟你磕頭跟你掉頭寸有沒有這回事我們確實在補助地方政府方面也蠻多的對可是這不是磕頭啦那個大家都是夥伴關係對我們跟縣市的合作都非常好那有沒有拿去投資其他的"},{"start":6658.306,"end":6658.846,"text":"今年預算也要拜託委員省"},{"start":6682.403,"end":6697.914,"text":"那來第二個問題就是．天天很多外籍．這次在船上有外籍的漁工那常常被你們罰．被你們開罰單就是說這要轉圜開到買頭 頂頭 你要整理漁獲那你們想說那個叫鯊魚我告訴你齁 我們這個海邊的魚 抓魚的齁"},{"start":6708.381,"end":6730.413,"text":"做溫暖的,那時候我會把他抬到沙沙雨,那時候他會死在漁獲,漁獲就是把他整理,這樣而已,還要買到整理,當然也要買到整理,不然那時候要怎麼處理,那你就隨便把他開端,開到大家這樣群起連署,要來遊覽車,要走來走去,要勞動部這樣抗議,那你現在處理得怎麼樣?"},{"start":6734.359,"end":6759.126,"text":"就是委員我知道您在關心的這樣的形態他是這樣啦他在他下船以後去幫忙鯊魚那沒有問題可是他如果把魚販去市場賣整理魚貨那不叫鯊魚火魚才叫鯊魚死的魚啊都扁開都被人抓回來都死的都冰凍的到這個是鯊魚整理魚貨講好事對整理魚貨沒問題可是他如果去市場賣魚"},{"start":6761.289,"end":6765.164,"text":"海上叫做走私那兩岸叫做海上小貿易"},{"start":6766.719,"end":6794.696,"text":"觀念不太一樣餒兩岸四地沒有什麼走私是海上小貿易所以這個想法講法不一樣所以你現在整理一戶家當然你們要跟漁業署來溝通那現在勞動部這邊是解釋啊然後現在你們是要怎麼處理你不能再一直開端那不然人家動會掉啦對不對你不知道這件事齁"},{"start":6795.676,"end":6814.253,"text":"我知道其實我在東港那邊有很多這樣的需求對他們也希望你的意思就是希望移工也能夠幫忙到市場上處理他處理他整理出來叫他到市場可是這部分到到岸邊喔對岸邊"},{"start":6817.016,"end":6842.554,"text":"我們來研究看看好嗎因為就是如果是他是他工作的延伸那就可以啦對工作的延伸是是是對我們來研究看看是是是所以這個阿你要跟漁業署好好的來溝通阿對對對我們要跟漁業署請問上不然的話這些傳統齁你發覺齁金人港澳的船坐在我們車上阿要給它餵阿所以金人跟漁業署好好啊好好溝通一下好不好阿你現在你的補分"},{"start":6844.462,"end":6854.647,"text":"委員報告因為這個議題其實漁民有反應我們跟漁業署其實都有在持續溝通那現在就是把那個範圍界定工作延伸基本上那個部分只要沒有涉及到一些未來一些漁獲的販賣或什麼大概這個部分我們跟漁業署會來溝通"},{"start":6874.532,"end":6887.581,"text":"就算單純的就是魚抓上來釣上來在碼頭岸邊倒煎煎你這魚貨 這樣也要動作 如果說要去到菜市場倒賣這樣不行 這樣當然也不行 如果說在那裡就放寬一下 也這樣抓緊緊抓 這是沒意義的事嘛 好不好 好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝下一位我們請圖圈級委員 在圖圈級委員發言完畢後休息10分鐘"},{"start":6912.425,"end":6913.872,"text":"謝謝主席請問何部長來何部長"},{"start":6918.959,"end":6918.979,"text":"議員好"},{"start":6949.239,"end":6963.964,"text":"那這部分也是我們執政黨連9年來調漲基本工資那當然這一部分資方的團體當然其實也是挨叫啦那我們據我們看這個數據勞動部統計2017年調漲最低工資我們受惠的國人大概有166萬那2025年調漲受惠的國人大概有220萬"},{"start":6976.769,"end":6992.128,"text":"當然條長基本工資對於我們邊際勞工的提升很顯著當然也是我們執政黨跟勞動部的努力當然這一部分針對邊際勞工的部分我們也要感謝我們執政黨跟勞動部的努力"},{"start":6993.57,"end":7017.265,"text":"這一部分當然除了我們調漲最低的基本工資可以幫助我們邊際勞工之外那當然也希望藉由調漲最低基本工資來刺激資方也希望能夠讓我們這些的受僱勞工整體薪資能夠來調漲對不對這也是我們一個重要的目標嘛也希望藉由這個來調漲我們整體的薪資當然"},{"start":7020.748,"end":7046.981,"text":"那可是針對這一部分我們看104人力銀行的調查還有我們自由時報也有針對這一部分的報導那調漲最低工資其實據他們來了解好像多數的勞工其實是無感的甚至他覺得調漲最低基本工資反而帶動我們物價的上漲針對這一部分部長有沒有來了解一下"},{"start":7047.941,"end":7075.975,"text":"委員 物價的上漲因素是很多啦齁 那麼我理解大家對所謂的這個最低工資調漲這個對經常性薪資有沒有帶動其實委員我給您報告你想想看我們現在經常性薪資的中位數已經來到46000其實是上漲的我們那個曲線喔我們就是當時在最低工資審議委員會的時候我們勞資學生委員我們一直看那個曲線都是其實是同步"},{"start":7076.495,"end":7092.883,"text":"所以你說調漲最低工資讓我們受雇員工的經常性薪資也是跟著調漲是不是當然一定會有帶他是有推波推推升因為他是底嘛他是底部他往上走的時候他就會一起往上調對"},{"start":7094.043,"end":7122.426,"text":"其實針對這一部分我們了解其實調漲最低的工資那很多僱主說讓他的成本提升當然他的獲利下降所以其實針對除了最低基本工資的員工之外很多的員工除了像這些他不是領最低基本工資的這些受僱勞工的薪資他說其實他們是被調降甚至被動漲的"},{"start":7124.508,"end":7145.348,"text":"所以針對這部分我們來討論一下那其實你看我們提高這個最低薪資以後其實帶動這個物價的上漲所以對於我們實質的薪資對於企業成本的提高然後這些實質薪資其實是不增反減的"},{"start":7146.997,"end":7153.501,"text":"應該委員您去看這個我們那個統計調查您秀出來的這個110年是4萬2然後11年到4萬3去年我們今年已經達到4萬6了"},{"start":7165.789,"end":7190.634,"text":"對你看喔從107年開始到111年齁其實你看整體的條幅我們最低基本工資107年你調4點多可是我們的經常性的平均薪資只有提升2點多然後108年你調升5%結果我們的基本經常性平均薪資只有提高到1點多除了110年調0.84然後我們"},{"start":7195.875,"end":7217.472,"text":"經常性平均薪資提高到1.807以外其實你看這5年以來我們最低工資條幅這麼大可是你看整體的經常性平均薪資其實帶動很小而且這些的調整之後我們說為什麼說他的實質薪資是不增反減因為他的物價的上漲"},{"start":7218.573,"end":7234.906,"text":"反而大於他薪資的調升所以看起來他的薪資是調漲但是這物價的通膨反而高於他薪資的調升也就是說其實他好像薪資調高事實上他的錢變小了因為我們物價的上漲"},{"start":7236.035,"end":7236.055,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7251.537,"end":7274.943,"text":"通膨是這樣通膨當然其實你經濟在成長經濟在好員工薪資在上漲的時候坦白說在經濟學的理論上通膨是一定多多少少都會存在可是當然我們一定我政府要去打擊通膨這也是一定要做的然後跟委員報告我當然也知道您的顧慮所以我們今年在最低工資通過以"},{"start":7276.203,"end":7301.42,"text":"我們現在也我剛剛在業務報告的時候我有跟你跟大家報告就是中小微企業的補助升級方案啊好那麼我們希望能夠透過我們在救安基金也在這部分有出一部分的預算我們跟經濟部跟交通部針對小微企業我們希望能夠補助員工提升他的數位能力對因為部長這部分其實我之前也跟你討論過"},{"start":7302.501,"end":7318.872,"text":"對因為很多條條這個最低基本工資像很多他不是領最低基本工資他是領高於最低基本工資其實這麼多年來喔他們真的都沒有調到薪水所以喔是不是這個最低基本工資跟受雇員工的薪資其實是脫鉤的"},{"start":7319.893,"end":7345.725,"text":"你最低基本工資一直調其實很多民眾說其他是並沒有被調到的反而帶動這物價的上漲讓他的薪水反而你最低基本工資一直調讓很多員工沒有調到錢甚至調的幅度不夠高造成反而他感覺是不增反減反而是被減薪的感覺好那針對這部分我覺得還是可以看一下這些數據你看這個條幅確實是沒有跟上來"},{"start":7346.645,"end":7367.095,"text":"對我們要努力啦因為我們也這樣子所以去年委員今年委員大院也通過了這個中小企業條例然後希望能夠補助這一個新企業能夠調升這個非最低工資的這樣的員工部分的那你有沒有了解過這個最低最低工資的調漲"},{"start":7368.356,"end":7389.203,"text":"他其實看這個數據他確實是沒有帶動整體薪資的漲幅就是這個漲幅是沒有跟上來的你最低金資的漲幅是比較大整體的漲幅是比較低那你們了解過企業為什麼不願意調整這個薪資拒絕跟這個受僱員工分享這個盈利這個原因是在哪裡有沒有去了解過"},{"start":7391.29,"end":7407.198,"text":"對當然這個企業他們在利潤分享的時候他們有他們要他們的priority是什麼這個可能對我們會有他們的計算方式是希望企業跟著調生那我想請問一下我們政府有沒有帶頭把這個薪資做調生啊"},{"start":7408.604,"end":7429.083,"text":"委員那個行政院聽不通過的軍工叫調薪今年連續調再調3%就是這個用意對所以公務員也調3%嘛那我們勞動部應該也要跟上對不對您是指勞動部是不是針對這個薪資部門也要跟著調薪您是指非最低工資的人工的那像我們勞動部有些業務是委外的對不對"},{"start":7430.544,"end":7445.112,"text":"委員那個部分如果是我機構內的我部內的比如說像我的重建中心我明年也會讓他調4%對那在我們在機構內部的我們當然是會所以也會跟著調嗎因為我們要帶勞動部要帶頭嗎當然可是你看一下據我們瞭解喔勞動部勞發署喔他針對自己委外的就業服務的派遣人員你看喔"},{"start":7456.84,"end":7468.35,"text":"他這個職缺是派到我們勞動部勞發署各個分署去從事就業情報業務的輔導那當然我們基本工資3年調漲我們算過3年調漲超過12%結果我們看這個職務連續3年都動漲我們政府自己也沒有帶頭阿"},{"start":7478.619,"end":7498.676,"text":"你這個基本工資三年調漲結果你自己委外的這個職缺連續三年都動漲難怪我們看所有從事這個職缺的一兩個月就換人然後整天在徵才那你調漲基本工資要帶動企業要企業帶動結果自己政府也不做委外的也不做"},{"start":7499.637,"end":7524.829,"text":"委員我們這個明年就會也跟著漲的我們會這個也會漲3%所以這部分我希望部長看一下你看3年我們基本工資調漲12%結果一直呼籲叫企業也跟著帶頭結果我們自己勞動部勞發署所有的委外的都沒有做好我們會來檢討那明年就會又會跟著跟進一起調好這部分還請部長來多瞭解多關心一下好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7526.92,"end":7527.905,"text":"現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8150.206,"end":8150.226,"text":"會展開"},{"start":8193.305,"end":8208.772,"text":"好先請王振旭委員發言好欸謝謝主席我們有請何部長何部長"},{"start":8212.182,"end":8212.402,"text":"委員好"},{"start":8243.583,"end":8264.564,"text":"另外今天想要跟部長請教是除了這些基本生活保障的同時有沒有機會讓我們的勞動朋友有幸福的感覺這是今天要跟部長來互相討論的地方其實我們也可以知道根據我們現在的勞基法的一些規定"},{"start":8266.306,"end":8285.01,"text":"不管是在針對雙週、八週或者是四週變形的工時、延長工作時間等等在事業單位有工會的時候那就必須要有一個好的勞資會議的同意才能夠去根據這個需要來做一些調整"},{"start":8285.53,"end":8301.212,"text":"那如果沒有的話呢就需要去多了解看看那這6項的彈性措施目前依照第75條的這個規定呢如果沒有辦法遵守的時候呢就有罰則"},{"start":8302.313,"end":8326.578,"text":"那這是由各地主管機關可以來做對雇主進行這個行政罰則那不知道到目前為止有沒有相關的資料或是統計知道說因為有違反這六項規定而受到影響的一些案件那這部分不知道部長有沒有相關的資料可以提供給我們當參考是我可以先請對"},{"start":8331.143,"end":8347.985,"text":"我們勞資會議的這個舉辦當然也是必須考慮到有時候企業形態啦那因為我們中小企業實在太多了那麼所以98%是中小企業那他對於勞資會議的機制沒有很瞭解"},{"start":8349.126,"end":8374.533,"text":"對所以我們還要再宣導然後再多加強還有另一方面是那種微型企業五人以下的甚至連勞保城堡都不成立這樣子那他們那種形態是變成什麼呢他的雇主通常也是員工就是雇主跟員工之間就就是簡直是一家人家庭類的這樣子的一種方式是這個這種形態也很多所以"},{"start":8375.333,"end":8403.35,"text":"你也不能說他們這種就他們其實也是另外一種另類的勞資會議啦這種還蠻多的所以我們會我們必須要針對這些不同樣態的企業型態喔要來這個來來盤點狀況然後來實務面有他的困難的地方是因為依照需要的話這個勞資會議看會又還要做記錄對如果沒有完整的記錄的話那可能就要面臨"},{"start":8405.091,"end":8420.7,"text":"沒有依照規定來處理這個勞資會議以後所要去達到的一個目標這的確是一個很不容易的事情可是不容易的事情如果有好的方法我們也期待能夠能夠達到我剛剛所提到的"},{"start":8421.42,"end":8439.554,"text":"我們這些勞動朋友有幸福的感覺那代表說勞方資方之間是透過共同的一些方法來討論出對於勞工朋友有更好保障的一些工作的內容因為我們知道事實上對勞方就是對勞動朋友來講如果有感受到這個好處的話相對來講他在幸福的感覺就一定會指數會上升"},{"start":8449.281,"end":8454.488,"text":"因為我們發現那麼多家的這個一百六十幾萬家的這些中小企業事實上開過會議的只有16萬對因為其實他們多數真的本身有點"},{"start":8466.642,"end":8474.426,"text":"都是We are family的形態這樣子他本身他有很多彈性彈性的那一種勞資的因應的方式所以在部長這邊同仁們可以多宣導的同時"},{"start":8481.869,"end":8506.815,"text":"也能夠有機會去落實尤其是如果有比較具體的公會或者是針對某一些特別的狀況之下也讓我們的勞動朋友知道有這樣的權益可以試著去爭取因為我們也從這個貴單位就是貴部所呈現的這個勞資會議的流程圖裡面看到的確這些都已經具備了"},{"start":8507.415,"end":8507.695,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8524.961,"end":8546.914,"text":"就是不要讓一般的我們的勞動朋友認為說如果是只有30人以上才能做這些事情那30人以下好像就比較有他的困難度存在這個部分就是要呈現我剛剛一直在提到的讓我們的勞動朋友有感受到"},{"start":8548.835,"end":8569.062,"text":"就很關心他能夠感受到我們這些在工作過程當中那種被關心被照顧的感覺我想如果有這樣的感覺出來或者是有這樣的事實存在的時候這種勞動的這些呈現就不會有那麼明顯的會因為他覺得這個工作環境不適合他而離開這個職場"},{"start":8571.042,"end":8587.95,"text":"這部分就麻煩部長還有同仁們一起來設法來改善好不好好謝謝委員會這樣講其實是因為沿街的就是所謂的離線權離線權這是一個未來一定要面對的問題"},{"start":8589.831,"end":8615.76,"text":"因為3CC產品的這些越來越發達還有我們不管是在這個資訊或者是相關的這些設備還有使用越來越多那澳洲他們已經讓他們的這個離線權可以透過立法的方式來執行那歐盟其實是最早開始法國更是率先通過了離線權的法案"},{"start":8617.76,"end":8637.205,"text":"包括德國美國也陸續的在執行當中離線權的意思就是說當所有的同仁離開他正常的工作時間以後如果接到了相關透過這些資訊處理的模式希望能夠增加工作的"},{"start":8637.725,"end":8660.806,"text":"不管是項目也好或時間也好那如何能夠有好的方法來避免或者是來讓這樣的處理可以更為完整那不知道部長針對這個離線權的看法是怎麼樣未來勞動部有沒有什麼樣的態度來面對這個一定會碰到的這個問題因為這個會讓我們剛所提到那個幸福的感覺是不一樣的"},{"start":8663.603,"end":8675.692,"text":"我們其實關於離線權當然我們是支持勞工要在這裡面取得他應有的權益啦所以我們其實有指引的就是你如果下班以後你用來"},{"start":8677.553,"end":8693.266,"text":"對通知你的員工要加班具體要求加班的話那員工是可以拿這個東西去跟勞動局主張說你應該給付我加班費的因為我們知道其實台北市啊台北市他們已經針對勞工的離線權"},{"start":8695.428,"end":8721.369,"text":"開始做一些應變處理措施然後甚至他會要求僱主下班傳訊算加班而且這個會員還是1分鐘做計算高雄市好像也對於這樣離線權也有一些想法跟動作我相信主管機關部長這邊如果能夠及早也把這樣的方法或者是未來要面對的部分能夠及早讓"},{"start":8723.451,"end":8749.63,"text":"民眾更知道他未來面對這個離線權可以怎麼處理的話應該有很好的一個指導作用是謝謝委員不過就是說這個需要同時對勞資雙方都要宣導對免得對就要不然會造成很多對所以重點就是說不管是勞方或資方應該共同來面對這樣的問題而不是單純是要求勞方或資方要去獨自面對問題"},{"start":8751.222,"end":8764.311,"text":"對是當然這其實也可以視為是一種彈性工作的形態的變化那當然我們這個我們來研究是對這個跟傳統的工時的計算那之間如何的來"},{"start":8766.772,"end":8794.705,"text":"所以因為勞動部基本上就是要照顧廣泛的勞工的權益嘛所以當然我們也不希望說因為在這個照顧這個勞工勞動朋友的權益的同時會影響到各位的生產力或者是相關的影響這是同時要兼顧只是因為隨著這個時代的進步當然很多的事情我們要重新的面對對對對是那下一個部分就是要建構這個友善的生養環境"},{"start":8795.945,"end":8815.654,"text":"那其實我們也很了解針對團性育嬰假我們在今年的5月9號開始試辦那不知道到目前為止將近5個多月的試辦期間有89個公司單位的參與有沒有初步的成果出來可以提供給大家做參考"},{"start":8817.235,"end":8824.586,"text":"對跟委員報告我們10月11號有召開這個的期中座談會那麼我們到9月30號有統計有短期育嬰留庭這一種有166件那我們座談會召開的結果"},{"start":8832.398,"end":8850.674,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8850.794,"end":8866.484,"text":"那他也怕說相關的專業人員會不會有這工作停掉了要回去恢復的問題等等這些啦這是實際執行上的問題那麼我們年底就會結束了所以我們會出一個檢討報告然後下一步怎麼走我們那再來跟委員報告"},{"start":8867.304,"end":8885.985,"text":"所以等有結果以後才會知道什麼時候會正式上路對對對不過我們的育嬰留艇成效非常好就是那個快撞的六個月的那個先對那個執行成效是非常好尤其是男性申請量非常的大"},{"start":8886.465,"end":8887.225,"text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":8929.906,"end":8931.893,"text":"主席是不是請我們這個何部長何部長"},{"start":8937.165,"end":8938.426,"text":"你知道吧?"},{"start":8938.426,"end":8938.446,"text":"是。"},{"start":8964.224,"end":8993.762,"text":"那過去勞動部這個認定外送員需親自履行外送接受平台指揮監督契單懲處的雙方不對等外送員這個分工合作等四項事實認定說這個外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係但是上有政策下有對策所以這些平台業者除了提出這個行政訴訟以外也大改了跟外送員的合約讓他更符合這個承攬制度的方向"},{"start":8994.202,"end":8994.622,"text":"第幾次了?"},{"start":9023.848,"end":9046.956,"text":"那你們現在方向是會怎麼樣進行我們最新的進度其實就是跟交通部合作把運費透明化修進這一個汽車運輸業管理規則裡面那其實是外送工會他們我們跟外送工會一起外送工會有幾個訴求你現在跟我講的是這個資訊透明化是其中一種而已"},{"start":9047.696,"end":9073.4,"text":"這個就是他主要的訴求喔外送專法他們在外送專法上他們有七大訴求所以他們在協談的時候其實有他們的訴求我就不知道說你是說他們主要訴求是什麼我唸給你們聽第一個停權要透明要公開透明的停權機制第二個報酬要有保障第三個要定型化契約第四個全時段保險第五個抽成要有上限第六個要地圖式典傳第七個要真人客服"},{"start":9073.86,"end":9098.116,"text":"你的剛剛講的這個資訊透明化是第幾點是他們主要訴求我都不知道你現在在講都講得對自己很不安利的你說這他們的主要訴求但是就我們所了解的不只是這樣子對可是委員因為我們都要一樣一樣來啦他是抱著頭你剛才說這是你的主要我就聽不下去了因為現在你在動嘴是呼嚨立委一樣我現在要跟你講就是說這個"},{"start":9100.097,"end":9108.402,"text":"人家的這個主要訴求包括這個第三方的救濟、申訴的程序正義、樣態停權的樣態明確化處理的效力等等啊這個都也不在你講的透明化的資訊透明化裡面那你們召集召開了這麼多的會議裡面我想請教你你知道現在台灣的像外送平台裡面"},{"start":9124.929,"end":9127.451,"text":"請問你這個Uber Eats為什麼要變購Foodpanda為什麼要把一個年營業額達到一兩百億的營業額的這個大公司要被一個小公司給合併掉為什麼"},{"start":9141.622,"end":9148.645,"text":"那當然是他們有他們的市場他們的市場你都要說很久了就一語待過這個很重要他幾乎要變成壟斷獨佔市場這個對外送員的平台和外送員的權益影響很大而你作為一個勞動部長你什麼都不知道為什麼UBER EAT他有能力要為什麼有動機要去併購現在台灣第一大年營業額200億的FOR PANDA你告訴我"},{"start":9170.976,"end":9189.696,"text":"你連這個都沒掌握都不了解你怎麼樣可以去了解這個脈絡說他們他們到底是發生什麼事會對衛生員的權益的影響是什麼你在這裡呼嚨立委其他立委打打馬呼嚴就這樣過去了我沒有辦法讓你這樣子請你回答我作為一個部長業務的主管機關"},{"start":9192.939,"end":9197.565,"text":"委員我不是外送平台的業務主管機關對外送人權益到目前為止還是很多都是雇傭關係你是這種外送人雇傭關係的業務主管機關還沒有定案"},{"start":9210.874,"end":9214.517,"text":"我跟委員報告所以你認為你支持雇用關係案是向公平會上案的我知道這公平會必須基於市場公平事的考慮因為他要達到壟斷案獨賺了所以他也必須要達到讓公平會去反對讓他們去支持"},{"start":9230.952,"end":9257.554,"text":"我現在問你是你是外送員而現在外送員在勞動部或者是在法院裡面判決幾乎大多數認定是僱傭關係而你是這麼多萬的外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握你還在講說我不是平台的主管機關誰鳥你平台是什麼我在乎的是外送員權益"},{"start":9259.534,"end":9270.037,"text":"委員我們都會說你的權益我你怎麼會不知道那我問你我問你他們為什麼這樣我問你啦Foodpanda的母公司是誰你也不知道Foodpanda的母公司是德國公司他們要買幾億元啊合併要幾億元賣掉你不知道好沒關係10億美元"},{"start":9289.145,"end":9294.169,"text":"為什麼他要這樣子做?因為他的德國母公司虧損而Uber Eats的母公司是美國公司他們剛好有賺錢為什麼會這樣子?為什麼會這樣子?我知道你當然很難去推定"},{"start":9309.039,"end":9337.637,"text":"但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避雇佣承攬或者是有其他界定工作者性質的關係然後平台經濟的樣態很多不是只有送食物一種包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作經由平台去仲介勞動力任務可能是載客代價可能是送餐清潔維修運送服務等很多物理性的勞動"},{"start":9338.678,"end":9344.3,"text":"都是在這個平台經濟裡面人家在輸送所以你知道你在未來這種平台經濟服務外送裡面在多少從業人員影響多少人啊你怎麼可以這麼的掉以輕心然後隨便輕忽的態度來面對呢你在立委立法院這裡你就這樣子面對委員的質詢你要說你要很認真我是有點問號啦那我現在講說"},{"start":9368.05,"end":9388.715,"text":"這些外送服務或是外送平台所提供的這些勞務提供者跟他的服務服務的接受者他們會有實體接觸所以在因為你這個服務的外送者提供者跟這個服務的接受者會接觸就會影響到平台的品牌形象"},{"start":9389.747,"end":9406.363,"text":"所以會影響到他們的生意所以平台當然要介入要有規範要有控制這一些服務的提供者他要確保平台的形象和他優質的服務而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟他已經要挑戰了這個法律的框架了"},{"start":9407.051,"end":9426.698,"text":"所以勞動部在講說外送員專法其實就這一個專法你立不出來就算了一個外送員專法的法律框架可能還不足以來面對這麼新型態的這個平台經濟所以退一步我們退回來啦"},{"start":9428.188,"end":9453.782,"text":"退一步說因為外送員備受關注要優先處理那你能不能有另一種思維你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身份的認定而不要在這裡打劫了如果你要這僱傭還是承攬我們不要打劫在這裡的話那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔這些服務的提供者要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務"},{"start":9456.503,"end":9465.086,"text":"委員這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作訂運費透明化你不要跟我講一項運費透明化啦人家的訴求最重點都也不是在這裡我剛剛念過了建立第三方救濟申訴的程序誠意停權的樣態明確化等等"},{"start":9482.532,"end":9491.077,"text":"有,那個第三人責任險現在Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了,這也是我們...你在這裡喔,我們問東你答西啦,然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦"},{"start":9498.922,"end":9514.683,"text":"我現在告訴你說虛假承攬在外送超級外送員這一本書裡面直接指出說這個外送平台他如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗的外衣然後卻透過薪資薪酬獎勵的制度在控制外送員"},{"start":9516.445,"end":9540.244,"text":"就是說在這種狀況裡面平台已經不會再要求你要穿他的制服啦保護箱的外觀要一樣啦也不會禁止你不可以雙載啦那他在契約裡面好像盡量的把那個僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉但是呢他們改由報酬制度去展所展開的這個取單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為"},{"start":9541.525,"end":9561.931,"text":"但看起來像這個彈性接單好像是承攬制但是這是一種假的虛假的承攬因為他是為了績效獎勵然後報酬制度去去擬接單率獎金制來控制你的行為然後呢"},{"start":9562.831,"end":9565.415,"text":"為了績效獎勵你就要獨自去承擔各種風險然後為平台業者賣命的去賣命那他變成這些服務的提供者必須要自付這一個職災的風險自備生產工具自付修車保衛箱各種設備成本"},{"start":9579.514,"end":9601.969,"text":"但是呢我現在跟你講的是歐洲歐盟各國法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是雇佣拒絕認定他們不是雇佣他們現在歐洲歐盟他們轉而去關注的是平台工作者這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性"},{"start":9602.91,"end":9616.741,"text":"那歐盟是以推定他們還是繼續要推定僱傭來解決虛假承攬你到底你們現在的方向還要折衷在哪裡你可以告訴我們嗎你就僱傭跟承攬這兩件事我們還在跟交通部以及速發部都還在討論當中你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候有找交通部討論嗎"},{"start":9630.011,"end":9646.178,"text":"這個到底是不是雇用關係是你勞動部的主管業務還需要跟人家討論嗎因為我們對這一個所謂平台他之間跟他的平台外送員之間是雇用關係這勞動部是可以認我們是這麼認定是沒有錯啦"},{"start":9647.458,"end":9667.849,"text":"可是這並不代表我就是他的主管機關我們現在因為外送平台是一個外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇我討論的是這些服務的提供者接受外送平台接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人他的權益是你是主管機關"},{"start":9668.769,"end":9669.97,"text":"委員 計程車司機的勞動權益我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的"},{"start":9697.811,"end":9707.895,"text":"那都定在交通部那邊欸因為計程車司機他也不歸我管欸他是他的那這就是為什麼當時汽車運營業有這種規則對就像這個受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管嗎當然他們的勞動司機受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管你要去找交通部討論說遊覽車司機的勞動權益他適用勞基法哪一條請交通部給我們指導一下你會這樣子去嗎"},{"start":9727.097,"end":9730.98,"text":"我告訴你你是協調而不是他們定而已他可以定到超出牢記法的這個範圍嗎?他可以定到超出牢記法的範圍嗎?"},{"start":9748.05,"end":9768.857,"text":"我們兩部會要協作因為委員我要跟你解釋我現在不要跟你講我現在跟你講說事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看看似彈性自主的工作事實上透過系統控制平台的這個這種東西這個關係其實是虛假承攬而我在問你的是你的承攬跟你的雇傭你到底要走哪個方向承攬跟雇傭委員"},{"start":9773.183,"end":9781.811,"text":"因為這個就是這是一個新興的產業他的這樣子的新興的產業人家國外沒有這種產業嗎人家國外都沒有這種產業沒有外送員沒有平台經濟嗎就平台立場他認為他是一個資訊服務的提供者而已"},{"start":9793.581,"end":9812.234,"text":"國家部一種經驗,你現在就只好一次次亂練然後虛與偽對立委這樣子問東答西的西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25判決他認定這個Global的平台工作者具有勞工身份因為Global的平台建立一套評級等級的評級系統"},{"start":9815.296,"end":9832.009,"text":"如果你這個外送員超過三個月沒有階段會被降級而且跟建立排名系統那根據客戶的評價執行最近訂單的效率以及如何在需求最大期間執行服務三項給予評分最高分的外送員享有優先的訂單優先權這意思是什麼"},{"start":9835.111,"end":9851.325,"text":"就是說外國西班牙的平台就是說你服務態度要好你外送的速度要很快你尖峰的時刻一定要接單你不能懶惰不接單想接就接不接就不接不可以你如果不接的話你也可以但你會被降級你以後的單子不會優先派給你請問台灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":9858.852,"end":9883.857,"text":"台灣有平台經濟嗎?西班牙法院就不這麼認為他認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務而不是為了外送員個人不代表外送員個人都代表這個品牌外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式"},{"start":9884.537,"end":9908.378,"text":"而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車然後你評人家等級你評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督和控制換言之平台單方決定的工作組織模式還有服務與的定價支付方式和外送員報酬都是由平台單方決定的所以它逐漸高度指揮權"},{"start":9909.699,"end":9915.78,"text":"他們人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了他們還修了勞基法欸你不要看主席啦你當時喔不中你常常對立法院下指導旗下慣了你連對我們的周圍連他的議程的定定你都要指揮然後現在CyberShare和主席看說時間到了"},{"start":9941.854,"end":9966.812,"text":"好沒關係我再問西班牙連在這種狀況裡面他講說他們還修了勞基法他們增訂第23條只要任何商品類型的外送服務有僱主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式直接間接或暗示的行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況便推定外送員具有勞工身份所以在這種規定裡面不僅適用於實務的外送"},{"start":9972.417,"end":9987.31,"text":"還擴大到使用演算法的進行管理營運的平台甚至於成立專家委員會左手進行人工智慧和演算法在僱傭關係中的良好應用的這個相關的研究和評估人家是這樣做的現在我們問你的是你現在閃閃又奪奪"},{"start":9996.517,"end":10022.283,"text":"連老大只想規避一下就想走德國在2020年也發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點他指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權利關係平台不僅是仲介工作一方面宣稱承攬關係另一方面又單方的定立工作規則和條件且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢所以德國說更需要國家"},{"start":10024.423,"end":10048.59,"text":"他介入確立公正公平的勞動條件這是德國2020年到2024年你今天還在告訴我說人家以Uber Eats還有這個Full Panda為例就走向壟斷獨佔了你現在跟我們講說我們什麼資訊透明要去跟交通部商量這是台灣政府的責任的態度嗎"},{"start":10050.697,"end":10054.178,"text":"歐盟指令,歐盟平台工作指令談什麼?你也不知道?阿不然市長知道不?市長知道不?"},{"start":10063.191,"end":10070.995,"text":"你們業務主管單位連歐盟指令指令在今年通過了今年4月才剛通過550歐盟議會554票贊成56票反對24票棄權通過了歐盟平台工作者指令而這個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了"},{"start":10088.863,"end":10101.552,"text":"他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件個人資料保護促進平台工作者演算法的管理的透明度公平性人工監督和安全性所以他們有幾個我現在你這樣我覺得很離譜業務單位也不知道部長也不知道主管機關的業務單位"},{"start":10115.404,"end":10124.108,"text":"我也不知道所以你們在這就是不在乎嘛外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷案獨佔的你還是不在乎所以在這種狀況裡面反對那個併購案我們已經講過很多遍我沒有在問你反不反對併購案我在問你是反不反對假承攬虛假承攬併購不是你的業務啊我在問你你反不反對虛假承攬"},{"start":10146.857,"end":10174.606,"text":"我們當然是反對的啊所以我們才要去跟交通部那你要不要更積極的作為你需不需要更積極的作為歐盟的指令第5條規範根據成人國現行的國家法律集體協議或管理當已經有事實的控制和指導時數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定"},{"start":10176.027,"end":10191.722,"text":"則由平台業者負責舉證責任除了推定僱傭關係以外也規範了演算法管理勞動者充分的瞭解招聘工作條件收入自動監測和決策的使用而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的這些類型的個人數據"},{"start":10197.387,"end":10210.418,"text":"也不可以去獲取人家的生物特徵或心理狀態而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估人家是走到這樣子而我國我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟然後確立雇傭關係法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性"},{"start":10219.466,"end":10232.564,"text":"那如果你反對承攬關係那你認為支持這個推定雇傭那你這個推定雇傭你應該要入法要支持專法保障不是嗎我覺得說專法還"},{"start":10237.654,"end":10243.738,"text":"需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論你反對至少你反對承攬吧我不贊成啊你反對承攬那你支不支持僱傭推定"},{"start":10251.055,"end":10275.495,"text":"委員就是我們反對你反對陳蘭但是那她是什麼狀態你不知道因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭委員你到底支不支持推定僱傭我們是不是這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦對今天不是要業務討論嗎這今天不是你業務報告嗎我覺得要問你的態度啊你今天在這裡不敢講出來對立委不敢對國會不敢表態"},{"start":10276.716,"end":10277.017,"text":"委員我要坦白講我作為"},{"start":10296.721,"end":10297.302,"text":"我們本來就認定他是雇佣關係阿"},{"start":10312.901,"end":10313.121,"text":"台灣的社會勞動平台經濟不是獨創的"},{"start":10327.295,"end":10330.716,"text":"而且現在包括歐洲包括台灣的司法判決還有這個都已經非常的多然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身份細緻分析到勞動從屬的內涵多數的判決都是認定他們是僱傭而不是承攬所以台灣國內的法院也都是這樣子法治化的保障這一個是跑不掉的"},{"start":10350.985,"end":10362.811,"text":"一定要法治化保障然後絕對不應該是外送人內部沒有共識跟你們討論沒有共識跟交通部沒有共識要行政院來協調不是這樣子一句話就可以帶過了你今天在這裡就是這樣子閃躲顧左右而言他問東答西謝謝林淑芬委員林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在現在請王宏威委員"},{"start":10385.472,"end":10388.393,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們何部長好部長好延續剛才您說分委員的話題我大概是第一次聽到就是有關於這個uber eat跟ful panda的這個合併案裡面我們勞動部很明確的表達反對是不是那這樣的反對我們是不是已經有發函讓公平會知道了呢"},{"start":10414.162,"end":10440.654,"text":"我們要求公平會在討論合併案前一定要先智慧我們勞動部這邊沒有我的意思是說你們反對合併案因為其實很多的公會組織事上都在反對這個案子那當然你們作為勞動部但是你們這麼明確的態度有沒有發函給公平會讓他們知道"},{"start":10441.474,"end":10453.058,"text":"我們有跟公平會告知有用公文方式有去告知有正式喊因為他們現在還沒有做成決議因為還在補件的一個過程裡面因為我覺得勞動部的態度其實是至為關鍵的另外請教一下"},{"start":10460.92,"end":10487.191,"text":"剛才討論到因為部長也講說會訂定專訪那麼確實我們外送員其實在很多的在跟這個平台打官司的時候其實都是弱勢好那最近有一個案子事實上呢是台南市政府他用一個自治條例要求這個外送平台要幫這個外送員做第三人責任保險"},{"start":10488.231,"end":10517.412,"text":"可是呢我本來一直有那但是fulpanda沒有結果fulpanda跑去跟臺南市政府打行政訴訟結果最後的結果是什麼呢是臺南市政府輸掉了反而是臺南市政府輸掉因為他的理由就是說保險不是地方自治事項所以撤銷了臺南市政府的處分所以我剛才在講就說今天外送員啊面對的是一個"},{"start":10518.012,"end":10548.012,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10549.093,"end":10550.434,"text":"委員我們現在其實就有提供那個第三人責任險"},{"start":10571.344,"end":10595.639,"text":"這樣的規範喔給那個兩家業者他們也都同意我剛才有聽到你回答林淑芬委員講的吾輝有所以福佩娜因為他也打官司嘛我剛剛講這個官司案例第三人責任險嗎還是指這一個第三人責任險他有反對嗎他跟台南市政府打官司因為台南市政府是用自治條例那是強制險對強制險那麼但是問題喔問題喔"},{"start":10601.082,"end":10619.271,"text":"這個外送平台其實也不只這兩家只這兩家是已經造成一個壟斷的局面就是其實他要這個整個的合併的面向很多啦不只外送員事實上我們基於消費者保護來說其實過去他們就是不尊重消費者他想他想要提高"},{"start":10619.791,"end":10619.811,"text":"我剛講"},{"start":10638.943,"end":10664.649,"text":"是不是可以我們中央專法裡面去補足這個地方自治條例的不足由中央來規範修法以後他們就不要去跟我們地方打官司地方還會還會輸掉在中央的部分可不可以第三人責任險這強制險的部分可不可以委員跟您報告那個第三人責任險我們治安署現在已經都勸說到兩家業者都同意替外送人法了我就說還有其他業者"},{"start":10666.269,"end":10692.78,"text":"對,其他的業者很少啦,其實佔率很少,我們都會再努力,我們來盡量來讓他們全部都...但是能不能在法裡面做規範?你直接在法裡面做規範,不然人家那個地方自治條例就說你不是地方的權責啊委員,專法的問題會出在齁,我坦白說,如果是勞動部當主管的機關,我也管不到平台,問題出在這裡所以你那個專法會不會是個有效的專法,是個大問題啦,我會就面臨跟台南市政府自治條例同樣的命運"},{"start":10696.139,"end":10719.406,"text":"所以這就是我們行政院我們現在要來跨部會討論哪一個部會管他才有辦法你們只要聽出有人是主管機關就好啦你們現在就變三不管地帶阿你剛講好多都是這是交通部的事情不是你勞動部的事情難怪剛剛林淑芬委員會那麼生氣我還是覺得因為現在已經進入他們現在要合併的一個狀況"},{"start":10720.606,"end":10724.028,"text":"好那你剛剛講說這兩家沒錯他們兩家壟斷但是還有其他業者所以我們希望能夠在中央的法院上面去做補強而不要出現我剛剛在講像台南市政府的這樣的一個狀況所以你們要跨部會"},{"start":10736.033,"end":10757.013,"text":"您們最後要由哪一個部會去擔任主管機關我沒有什麼太大意見這個到時候以後專訪還要再去討論但是我希望不要再出現地方想要保護最後呢全部都推到中央地方也束手無策好不好我們積極來研議我覺得還是要在法院上修法好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10760.58,"end":10761.78,"text":"有請部長何部長"},{"start":10784.332,"end":10803.772,"text":"委員好部長好部長沒有雇主理會勞基法第54條在7月份我們立法院三讀勞動基準法第54條修正案在現行65歲強制退休年齡規定不變的情況下明定勞雇雙方得協商延後退休我想勞動部在這個新聞稿也寫到這個"},{"start":10805.333,"end":10815.091,"text":"代表社會各界對於勞動高齡者勞動力投入勞動市場是支持的我想哪一個行業別響應最為熱烈?部長您有資訊嗎?"},{"start":10817.612,"end":10843.366,"text":"應該我們其實現在有很多企業響應這個東西真的嗎那部長我想提供幾個資訊給你知道一下瞭解以受年齡限制最小的工作行業別而言像是保險業金融業行政客服業補教事業類都沒有人要響應7月份的三讀通過勞動基準法第54條修正內容我想部長就勞工而言修法利益良善但是雇主不理會後續我們該怎麼辦勞動部有沒有準備"},{"start":10847.133,"end":10864.489,"text":"當然我們要來加大力度宣導就是不能以年齡為歧視來任意支錢當然宣導是必要但是未來如果有沒有朝向完全沒辦法宣導完全沒有效果要不要強制半強制或者是給予更多的誘因這個部分呢你覺得呢"},{"start":10865.129,"end":10866.33,"text":"是,我們會來努力好嗎?"},{"start":10895.129,"end":10912.888,"text":"我也不支持阿好謝謝你那部長我想之前您在未完委員會曾經對我表示過以個人的立場你是支持立外送員專法的但是部長您知道光是現在官方的委外研究中建議外送員要立法的保障至少等了多久"},{"start":10915.349,"end":10940.407,"text":"委員這確實是一個需要審慎討論的問題所以這個在跨部會我們還在討論租款機關到底該怎麼辦的問題這是一個很核心的問題可是這也是核心問題我知道核心問題有很多都是核心問題但是我們希望的是能夠加快速度我先回答剛剛的那個答案從官方研究委外研究中"},{"start":10941.047,"end":10960.131,"text":"建議外送員要立法的保障到現在是2018的11月這份報告就已經出來了我們委外的研究我國推動新基金模式新科技發展對勞動市場的影響與因應的報告當中結論就指針對不同勞動光譜的一個工作制定更細緻的勞動法規應是較為可行的一個做法"},{"start":10963.692,"end":10984.555,"text":"制定兼顧雙方權益的勞動法規範就是為上冊2018年11月的這個研究到現在已經2024年10月了官方的委外研究報告建議外送員專法的保障足足等了5年11個月這個核心的問題研究了5年11個月我想"},{"start":10984.915,"end":11002.297,"text":"不管是外送員發生這個車禍的問題或者是剛剛有委員在討論不管是強制法第三責任險相關的一個問題我們都希望我們能夠立專法保障這些外送員所以我們最近也看到交通部目前已經預告要修正汽車"},{"start":11004.259,"end":11020.327,"text":"獲運業管理規則等相關規定將明定以機車載運乘運外送平台運送的業務運價我想這個是利益良善外送員最在意的就是包含啟程以及續程等待樓層業間加成的運費相關等等"},{"start":11023.368,"end":11046.93,"text":"我想這個部分都可以納入運價裡面對外送員的專法而言條文當中最難解決的一塊就是合理運價交通部試著去處理了以及報酬的透明化如今可以獲得採納也意味著專法已經邁向重要的一步所以到現在我想問一下部長你能不能在這裡承諾外送員專法在你任內會完成"},{"start":11048.151,"end":11064.339,"text":"委員我要先這個強調交通部會修這個法規是我們兩個部會共同討論的當然我不會說是他的一個功勞啦你們也有付出你們也有努力都沒有關係可不可以給我一個態度你能不能承諾在你的任內會完成"},{"start":11070.722,"end":11086.655,"text":"真的他的這一個他是不是會能不能是一個有效的立法這是要考慮的我們為什麼會去交通部那邊訂這樣子的一個運費透明化的在汽車或運輸業管理規則裡面訂就是因為坦白說現在能管uber的是誰公路法"},{"start":11087.415,"end":11089.236,"text":"現在外送員在什麼樣的情況之下會被平台停權開除沒有人知道"},{"start":11103.003,"end":11130.729,"text":"認為平台就是這樣的機制如此擴張他自己的權利這一點對外送員來說工作的權益受損沒有獲得保障相關的申訴也不夠透明部長判死刑總得要有個理由吧沒理由判死刑會死不瞑目請問部會有沒有準備相關的因應對策這個也是我們跟平台在討論對話的討論議題我們希望看到具體的作為我們希望看到具體能夠保障外送員而不是一直在等一直在等一直在等請你加油好嗎謝謝好"},{"start":11133.944,"end":11160.973,"text":"接下來請陳英委員發言謝謝主席那個部長先不用上來等你休息一下那我先請那個治安署周署長周署長"},{"start":11162.722,"end":11164.103,"text":"我們沒有預期要死亡人數我們希望降低到這個標準之以下沒有預期就沒有"},{"start":11192.79,"end":11196.574,"text":"我們沒有設標準嗎?重大職災內平均97人喔?贏到最弱的是最不好的跟委員報告"},{"start":11215.177,"end":11238.835,"text":"但是因為年平均就差不多300吧對 我們去年的死亡人數300人前年是320人跟你報的97這感覺是就是從比較優的報起不是嗎我們營造業是我們植栽的最大比率的占一半以上好啦 那我問你今年初到現在從那個年初到現在已經有多少人不幸死亡了目前我們手邊統計是210人"},{"start":11242.814,"end":11254.213,"text":"兩百一十人是好那你覺得今年會不會超過往年的一個平均值我們希望能夠比去年降低"},{"start":11255.339,"end":11279.793,"text":"到一定的程度那如果依照我們現在去年是多少去年300人那你說現在截至目前為止已經多少了210人210人了好那這個部分因為已經200多人了我沒有很樂觀但我希望他最後可以不要超過在去年"},{"start":11285.356,"end":11306.543,"text":"112年的這個職災千人率是不是歷史新低?千人率不會是依照老保的給付做處理目前我們數字確實是歷年新低那如果是歷史新低的話但是我們看這個重大職災死亡的人數他還是偏高的所以我要請教就署長你個人你相信哪個指標?"},{"start":11307.643,"end":11323.042,"text":"報告委員指南幾乎是一個指標那我們的重大指南死亡人數是法令強制規定一定要做通報跟進入檢查的那牽連率部分有包括死亡失能跟傷病所以死亡的部分在裡面比例是相對是低的"},{"start":11325.1,"end":11352.151,"text":"我其實是問的這個職災千人率跟那個重大職災死亡人數這兩個是你覺得這兩個的指標你覺得哪一個是比較精準的精準的部分是我們重大職災死亡人數這個我們接受通報檢查的部分那勞保的幾部有人是沒有投勞保或是勞保沒有幾部對嘛那所以這個職災千人率的部分嘛因為因為現在是主要是這個"},{"start":11353.932,"end":11366.792,"text":"我們的這個數字的走向是有點奇怪啊照理來講是應該是個正常來說是應該是平行但是我們現在還出現一個交叉這是很奇怪的事情嘛那"},{"start":11368.052,"end":11393.786,"text":"我想是這樣這個也讓社會各界就搞不清楚到底他該相信這個重大職災的這個死亡人數還是這個職災千人率還創歷年新低這個大家會覺得很疑惑啊你如果職災千人率已經降低很多的話那你怎麼那個重大職災死亡人數一直在飆高這兩個就反方向了嘛"},{"start":11396.787,"end":11418.932,"text":"我終於在上個月就9月收到你們112年勞動統計的年報因為過去我也有提過往年其實都是7月就出來了但是現在好像越來越慢了又等到9月這是什麼原因?報告委員我們每年的勞動檢查統計年報都是7、8月出來沒有錯"},{"start":11421.744,"end":11427.337,"text":"今年6月就上去,印製比較久一點"},{"start":11431.189,"end":11457.953,"text":"好,我希望都可以準時好不好是,我們會努力因為不是每個人都可以拿到就是有些人拿到紙本有些人上網看這樣子很不統一啦又落差這麼久的時間還有就是說因為你們歷年的資料我去比對了一下發現這個勞動檢查場次的增加好像跟實在的減少沒有什麼關係署長你針對這樣的狀況你有什麼看法是因為我們檢查的品質下降了嗎"},{"start":11458.713,"end":11458.733,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":11479.19,"end":11499.906,"text":"所以我們當然會檢討說我們的檢查效能到底能不能夠控制災害的不要再繼續往上我講數字是會說話的嘛目前這樣看起來是沒有嘛所以如果你說這個也要因應這個我們整個社會邊圈還有整個環境的一個變化那你們也應該要做調整不是嗎"},{"start":11501.109,"end":11523.571,"text":"是的,所以跟委員報告,比如說我剛剛講離岸風力發電,我們就投注一些人力做這樣子的檢查,那那個太陽能發電,現在很多推那個物理型太陽能電板,我們認為那也是高風險。你在講也只是就是單一的項目啦,那個我覺得我們事後可以你再好好的詳細跟本辦公室做報告,那因為這個勞動的年報的主要資料他"},{"start":11525.492,"end":11550.791,"text":"這個資料它主要是有分為這個勞動條件還有職業安全衛生兩個不同領域的檢查那實際上呢在你們的這個執行的程序是依照這個勞動檢查法那我要請問就是說你們的這個檢查員名稱是不是叫勞動檢查員是的好那我記得之前齁這個外送平台的這個勞動權益跟這個僱傭關係也是你們職安署認定的嘛對不對"},{"start":11551.584,"end":11556.006,"text":"我還是要提醒你我的問題沒有太複雜你就直接簡單回答就好了那在這個我們過去在討論這個勞基法修法的時候勞動檢查勞動條件的檢查也是你們執行的嗎不是嗎"},{"start":11582.243,"end":11586.917,"text":"執行端是我們職安署配合各地方政府的聘用檢察員做執行的沒有錯"},{"start":11587.769,"end":11610.928,"text":"反正就不是要叫調評司嘛那你們負責的業務早就已經超過這個職業安全衛生的業務那有越來越多的這個勞動者的權益要靠你們去保護所以你們出版的年報呢也叫做這個勞動檢查年報那檢查員也叫做勞動檢查員那平台作業工作者的勞動權益跟安全"},{"start":11613.63,"end":11632.56,"text":"安全衛生也是你們在保護只是說本期覺得很疑惑的一件事就是你們都還是叫做這個職業安全衛生署那感覺是這個名稱跟實際的狀況是名不符實你都笑了好那接下來我想部長休息夠了可以請部長上來"},{"start":11634.941,"end":11649.798,"text":"今年剛好是這個職安署成立10週年那10年前這個勞委會的勞工安全衛生研究所升格為勞動部的這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所"},{"start":11651.5,"end":11669.66,"text":"我有提出來就是說經過這10年的變遷你們的這個職安所應該要升格為勞動及職業安全衛生署明確的把這個職權跟組織的功能然後做一個完整的盤點跟討論我希望我今天提出這個部長不要反對"},{"start":11672.108,"end":11693.311,"text":"我們再研議看看好嗎委員這個就是讓你們名副其實應該不是太困難他就是一個名稱這樣子因為這牽涉到其實那個三級機關屬是三級機關那現在都滿了喔除非我去修行政院組織法"},{"start":11694.707,"end":11699.771,"text":"你們可以好好去研議,因為你們這個應該不是,這應該沒有到這麼複雜。不過這也是要修法的,就沒有那麼高崗了。"},{"start":11710.539,"end":11738.679,"text":"好謝謝委員謝謝對啊因為有些都已經就有些組別名稱都沒有只有還還有存在也是怪怪的那個我相信部長非常關注這個勞工權益的問題那這裡面不是只有職業安全衛生業務而已那現今的這個勞動條件還有職災勞工保護的業務都跟10年前其實是很不一樣的那麼例如說這個職災勞工保護法已經落日了"},{"start":11739.721,"end":11753.712,"text":"但是呢就是現在已經是被這個勞工職業災害保險及保護法所取代但是這個職保組的業務呢也已經轉移給這個勞保局了那在你們第二任署長就是那個劉傳明很會畫國畫那個畫機的那位"},{"start":11757.535,"end":11781.043,"text":"就是調平司司長去接任那個職安署署長而且他就很喜歡很喜歡講號稱這個聲稱這個牢條大軍說準備好了那尤其是現在很多的這個勞動新興議題還有職場精神不法傷害侵害還有性騷擾性別平等等還有就業歧視勞保投送勞保投保還有這個外籍勞工等等都跟你們職安署"},{"start":11781.383,"end":11797.45,"text":"的業務是有關係的所以很多的這個新興的職業病例如這個COVID-19然後高溫都跟這個勞動條件還有職業壓力都是有關係的所以未來的職業災害預防他已經是跳脫這個整個傳統的思維所以部長"},{"start":11798.63,"end":11814.789,"text":"我剛剛這樣的提議我希望你能夠慎重的去考慮然後可以落實執行那這個也要拜託就是那個部裡面還有我們整個衛環委員會的同仁大家一起來思考"},{"start":11815.249,"end":11836.487,"text":"指安署升格的必要性我相信你們也會有一個改名是改組織調整然後還有裡面這個修法之後這個已經不見得卻還存在的這個看要怎麼處理那你們是不是可以在一個月內演繹好來"},{"start":11838.328,"end":11838.568,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":11875.812,"end":11878.78,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請部長 何部長"},{"start":11881.817,"end":11888.001,"text":"部長好,我們再繼續討論數字的問題勞保基金到明年累計撥補是2670億那對於撥補的部分我們認為還是有很多的累計撥補但是這個數字撥補進來但是我們的缺口還是有洞"},{"start":11909.236,"end":11923.864,"text":"未來退休的人口因為老年人口化的問題所以你的壓力會越來越大對不對所以因此本席提出2023年底你勞保基金跟你精算的負債是達到13.465億那你潛藏的負債也達到12兆多12.872億"},{"start":11932.509,"end":11957.263,"text":"如果說這個東東都不改那當然有一個數字告訴我們也就在2028年會有破產的這個狀況在這樣的情況之下本席要請教部長數字會說話這個數字告訴你因為以往我們在請問這個問題的時候都給我們一個統一的答案叫做什麼政府不倒勞保不會倒"},{"start":11960.546,"end":11981.225,"text":"您是有所作為本席不希望還是用這樣子的一個口號來告訴民眾因為政府有責任讓我們所有的這個老闆人員能夠得到安心所以本席要請教也就是在整個結構性的問題我們撥補他只有什麼是治標不治本"},{"start":11981.806,"end":12009.931,"text":"你撥補的累進了那麼多但是還是一樣有空缺在那裡那您身為我們的勞動部長在這樣子的方式我相信你也認為只有以撥補撥補叫做改革這個我相信你也不認同這種口號所以本席要請教口頭上的讓勞工來做安心是絕對不會安心所以你願不願意將撥補入法"},{"start":12011.451,"end":12028.207,"text":"然後呢你要怎麼樣提出具體的長期債務的這個撥補計畫你要有一個統整的一個方向才能夠真正解決要不然你每一次都告訴我們政府不倒勞保不會倒請做說明"},{"start":12029.451,"end":12046.614,"text":"委員第一個我們到現在累計撥補是3870億啦對對那麼我們到現在的基金餘額是一兆一千億的餘額對不對意味著我們現在還有這麼多錢啦所以不用怕第一個就是說那老公朋友先不要擔心啦"},{"start":12047.495,"end":12062.545,"text":"那第二個就是說您講的撥補入法事實上我們過去都有提出只是送到立院都沒有完成修法所以這就代表在立院的各黨派我們不知道他們能不能只是就撥補"},{"start":12064.026,"end":12088.726,"text":"那你要溝通啊對啊你要溝通啊你今天新有所屬行政部門所制定出來的就是希望能夠達陣成功啊對不對那你明知道是如此那每一屆都是如此我不希望你還是前屆前前屆一樣的部長啊以前還不稱部長欸現在位階提高是部長欸所以你更有這個權利有這個義務"},{"start":12092.83,"end":12097.435,"text":"要去解決整體性的財政問題 重點在這裏你一定支持你現在 擔任部長你的版本送進來了沒有"},{"start":12112.486,"end":12134.059,"text":"委員因為我們這個勞保撥補的入法他必須還要這個我們會來整個來審慎的來討論的然後在這裡都有錄音錄影我們希望大家負責任的態度好不好好不好你剛才說是立法院沒通過但是你上任了之後你說你一定全力支持你也知道問題點如果關"},{"start":12135.9,"end":12163.774,"text":"這個源頭沒有解決永遠都是在那邊暈讓民眾不安心所以你有沒有預計要將這個入法提到立法院在你擔任部長我們會來處理會來處理喔 多久時間呢那委員因為我們這個你跟委員有權力支持的啊撥補入法的問題我們還必須考慮到其他層面的問題啦那麼我們會來處理這樣子你有沒有KPI你預計多久可以送來半年一年還是多久有一個指標"},{"start":12165.523,"end":12165.823,"text":"我們會來處理是多久會來得及嗎還是明年明年"},{"start":12195.723,"end":12196.704,"text":"我給你時間趕快努力去做好不好"},{"start":12212.023,"end":12212.183,"text":"外送員專法"},{"start":12227.574,"end":12253.36,"text":"外送員的專訪你認為你認為現在目前為止六都六都有相關的自治條例我們現在也有一萬五千名顯性的顯性的外送員在這樣情況之下你今天的報告只有說你持續推動外送平台業者與外送工會對話平台那你支不支持外送人員權益保障法"},{"start":12256.605,"end":12273.122,"text":"委員這個專法的問題我剛剛已經講過了我們必須考慮它是不是有效的立法啦你說專法必須考慮有效表示你是不認同的喔還是你是認同說我要提一部有效的專法這是你部長的職權欸"},{"start":12282.331,"end":12291.777,"text":"外送平台最主要就是說我們在外送平台這個新興行業我們有沒有辦法有效的對他進行管理政府勞動部部長"},{"start":12295.939,"end":12301.666,"text":"我只能管到外送員我管不到外送平台這樣會變成一個無效的立法目前的外送專法委員這是你的報告書上面寫的我沒有說要推動專法因為時間的關係你也請大家看到這個問題是社會面向必須要去讓他們有所得到保障"},{"start":12317.503,"end":12317.843,"text":"謝謝楊瓊怡委員接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":12345.256,"end":12366.172,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們何部長 何部長我也好 何部長我確認一下因為本期長期關注這個外送專法的一個部分 那勞動部日前才跟交通部說勞動部交通部出手外送平台運費透明化 是 我想這也"},{"start":12367.213,"end":12389.462,"text":"呼應本席之前要求說勞動部應該把跟外送平台的這個會議記錄溝通會議記錄都上網公告那也在本席的要求之下都已經有公告最近一次是8月8號本席都有看那其中跟外送業者也席代表最關鍵的兩點一點就是運費的透明一點就是這個工有沒有被"},{"start":12390.402,"end":12413.756,"text":"平台惡意或是無故的就是解除這個工作工作機會嘛對不對那現在費率已經出來但是還有這個調整草案調整的空間但另外一個部分解除工作機會到目前為止還沒有一個法令可以來明確的保障跟規範有一些規有一些規定但沒有但可是本期剛聽你講你沒有打算要推動專法是不是"},{"start":12415.185,"end":12426.482,"text":"我已經講過了就是外送專法他必須是要一個有效的立法當然是有效立法但是我們在講就是他含瓜的部會非常多但是一定還是會有主管機關"},{"start":12428.089,"end":12439.814,"text":"如果是主管機關放在勞動部我只能管到外送員我管不到外送平台這是最大的困境所以我們必須跨部會討論那因為過去我們在衛福委員會討論過非常多我不知道是因為換了一個部長之後就有一個新的思維以往的部長也不會覺得是說這個不是關勞動部的事情啊"},{"start":12452.02,"end":12472.273,"text":"以往部長也認為是說我們可以來研議可以來研究但換了新任部長之後突然間講是說我只管我只管得到這個外送員但其他部分沒有辦法那如果說我們現在真真正正認為是說外送因為外送這個行業他其實是跟手機跟5G訊號出來之後而新興產業嘛"},{"start":12475.155,"end":12501.514,"text":"這全世界的趨勢啊那我們現在在講是說我有看到報導我本來還想給予肯定講說勞動部還要再邀請各部會跨部會的來討論到底我們要怎麼樣責任分工但現在部長一句話講是說完全我沒有要管我不是說我沒有要管您剛剛的態度跟感覺就是所以說我要確認一下那現在到底有沒有一個時程或說勞動部會不會積極的去找各部會來"},{"start":12503.527,"end":12523.338,"text":"我要跟委員報告這是一個必須廣泛討論的事情沒有錯嘛就像外送平台運費透明化這是勞動部跟交通部嘛是對不對是那本期也給予肯定啊雖然說人家會覺得是說現在出來之後我們要避免後續平台會不會轉嫁"},{"start":12525.146,"end":12525.687,"text":"是阿"},{"start":12545.147,"end":12560.414,"text":"委員那外送專法也是同樣你可能你放在我勞動部也會變成你只管到外送員把外送員綁死可是呢你也管不到平台然後你也保護不了外送員可能會有這種困境喔這個就是我覺得講我們面對這種新興行業還是要面對的問題是當我們各委員也訂閱版本了"},{"start":12567.777,"end":12592.446,"text":"那版本現在我理解應該都是在我們衛環委員會跟司法法省會聯繫是可是委員我跟您報告那如果說到最後會變成是說大家山不管那無怪乎大家會覺得是說現在這就是一個山不管地帶不是山不管是啊看起來就是所以說你沒有從一個主管機關應有責任負責的態度來去處理啊我們先從跟交通部訂定運費透明化管理規則還有包括另一手跟平台推動對話我們先用這樣來處理這樣是一個比較目前有效的"},{"start":12601.711,"end":12619.761,"text":"但是遠遠不及,部長本席剛就拍中名義我就講你們現在八次的對話我都有看因為這個是當初我要求說你們的會議記錄一定要公告上網那你們八次的會議現在其實聚焦兩個部分一,運費透明你們已經有先提出了"},{"start":12620.481,"end":12632.188,"text":"本期於肯定但第二個部分就是說外送員的工作權益這個也是我們一般就是因為一般的約聘顧或是一般我們有相關的保障但是對於外送員目前是沒有嘛"},{"start":12633.114,"end":12652.896,"text":"委員 部長 我是希望部長能夠更有積極的態度來勇於認識那第二部分啦部長我來確認一下因為前些日子我們有這個颱風架就是天災然後其實它不叫架啦它叫停班停課啦那但是呢"},{"start":12653.937,"end":12675.266,"text":"也有人講是說這個有可能會發生是各地方政府在認定之後反而會造成有這個其他的考量好那我們現在拉回來也有人開始在講是說中央是不是能夠統一認定可是中央統一認定的話其實面臨到另外一個部分就是如果真的是颱風衍生出來出勤不出勤以及雇主扣薪扣績效扣出勤獎金"},{"start":12675.866,"end":12703.644,"text":"新知的一個認定跟計算嘛勞動部之前有訂立天然災害發生事業單位勞工出勤管理跟工資幾副要點但是還是沒有確定說該不該入法你只有什麼勞工不出勤移不要扣薪勞工出勤移給加班費但你還是沒有明確的去規範以至於發生亂象如同啊上禮拜"},{"start":12704.898,"end":12723.215,"text":"上禮拜我們直接講有一些縣市我們就突然看到是說因為他的氣候跟雨量可能沒有預期來的多而造成是說百貨公司零售業還是有還是有營業那對勞工的保障嘞所以部長我們現在要問的是說到底"},{"start":12724.912,"end":12742.749,"text":"不管是天災價或說天災的相關的一些法令的規範有沒有要比較積極的協助幫忙勞工這邊來去做權益的捍衛跟保障我們當然都一直很積極的在這方面所以你認為是可以入法嗎 可以立法 沒有"},{"start":12743.795,"end":12773.064,"text":"因為委員 全世界都沒有所謂的天災假害因為這是一個不可控的 是 但是現在我們在講的我們現在在講的是如果說他停班停課但是僱主還是有要求比如說他有一些行業真的就是說他一定要上班上課的話我們是不是應該要給予保障我們是不是應該要立法給予要求僱主應該要給予應有的權益而不是用一個移移給加班費移不扣薪"},{"start":12775.027,"end":12788.065,"text":"這樣對於勞工其實是沒有保障的不是嗎?委員可不可以會後請我們的勞動部提供部長本席點出來這兩個相關的修法其實都是站在勞工的立場我想這也是勞動部應該要有的立場"},{"start":12789.847,"end":12807.316,"text":"相對積極努力認識因為這個絕對不可能因為你說你不看不碰然後就不面對我相信之後我們還會在這邊有討論不管是外送專法不管是相關的這一些條條文好不好好謝謝主席好謝謝洪孟凱委員那接下來請吳宗憲委員謝謝主席我們請部長有請何部長"},{"start":12819.546,"end":12843.278,"text":"部長文安部長好部長我覺得今天其實問題還蠻簡單的就是我主要就是想到一個休假的部分的問題因為其實我們有一個政委說世界怎麼比得上臺灣這一點我們本期都難得認同這位政委講的話因為我想一下說我們勞工放假這個東西其實遠比其他國家"},{"start":12844.298,"end":12866.164,"text":"稍微工時非常高那到底其他國家要怎麼樣跟得上我們我們來提一個東西就是昨天啊勞團他有提拿四個議題來那個請教勞動部我不知道部長知不知道這件事情有那因為這個議題很多那勞動部的回應也很簡單就是說勞動部會積極審慎的態度來面對這個訴求那部長你以前也是"},{"start":12871.721,"end":12897.663,"text":" 那個勞權運動出生的啊那你想一想當年啊你會不會覺得說在你領導下的勞動部給這些勞團積極審慎態度面對訴求那這個官室的回應或是不是你以前在街頭上面你最不屑的這種大人的嘴臉就是這樣就你們今天你卻讓你的勞動部用這個理由去回應他們那這個沒關係你不用回應我只是要告訴你"},{"start":12898.904,"end":12918.978,"text":"這個一定是你當年很有理想時代你最討厭的一種長官的回應態度但是貴部卻今天用這個態度來回應這個勞權團體我只是提醒一下部長有這個問題發生好那我們再回過頭來今天的這四個訴求裡面我只拿一個訴求來跟部長討論因為我只有5分鐘"},{"start":12920.926,"end":12929.392,"text":"其實勞動部也知道說我們現在因為週休二日所以我們國家現在一年有116天的休假原則上是這個樣子"},{"start":12932.086,"end":12949.181,"text":"國人可以休息這麼多天但是勞工的每年的那個總工時有沒有降低這是一個問題就我看了一下去年我們平均的勞工總工時是2019.6個小時那我們很喜歡跟韓國比嘛韓國是1970個小時啦他只有2002年比較高但人家是1970個小時"},{"start":12958.409,"end":12987.478,"text":"這等於是我們是比人家高啊那再來我看了一下那個其他鄰近幾個國家的國定假日我們不跟OECD國家比我們就是看了一下鄰近幾個國家像柬埔寨他國定假日是28天那印度是21天我們台灣是11天中國大陸17天但我知道每一個國家有不同的文化本來就會有不一樣的做法不一樣的制度會導致這個國定假日的放假日數不一樣這我可以理解"},{"start":12987.978,"end":13015.778,"text":"但是依據內政部的紀念日跟節日的實施方法來看有一些未放假的假日未放假的節日跟勞動部也有一點關係比如說婦女節這是婦女職場上面的這個重視勞動部是不是可以向內政部去爭取說婦女節是不是可以給婦女這些勞動的婦女放假我是說這個也是一個勞動部這邊可以去"},{"start":13017.619,"end":13033.558,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13033.738,"end":13048.295,"text":"我們的工時長那自然命比他們短我想這個應該大家都可以理解啦但是勞動部並不是為了資方的資動部所以勞動部還是要去思考一下我們要怎麼解決這個問題那前面只是跟"},{"start":13048.875,"end":13076.704,"text":"部長說明一下現在的狀況那其實我要提的是一個點就是目前我國的特休不管是勞工或公務員我們的特休的日數是依據你的年資去累計的嘛部長一定非常的清楚但是現在世界上很多國家他們的邏輯是不需要跟著年資來去累計比如說像我手邊查到的法國他一年的休假最多150天那這個我們不看"},{"start":13077.964,"end":13097.342,"text":"西班牙他一年至少30天的自主假期而且這個跟年資深淺無關那德國的話他的聯邦休假法是20天也跟年資無關所以部長這個特休這個東西需不需要跟年資綁在一起這個再麻煩部長能夠"},{"start":13099.123,"end":13126.613,"text":"請貴部去做研究然後兩個月內能夠給我一個研究的報告好嗎那當然我是蠻希望的啦就是我們現在鼓勵年輕人多生小孩多照顧小孩那是不是我們在特休的日數上面也能夠去思考不要跟年資一定要絕對綁在一起因為畢竟這是一個世界上很多國家的一個潮流是不是我們也可以仿效這個方向所以先麻煩兩個月內給我一個"},{"start":13128.494,"end":13152.886,"text":"報告那我們再來去看完報告之後我們來研究看國家可不可以朝這個方向去走這個跟全國這麼多的勞工有很大的關聯性好那再麻煩部長那呃我希望說這個東西對全國是有益的那請部長能夠重視這個議題好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來林國新再麻煩主席要才是他兩個月要要好好"},{"start":13153.996,"end":13161.278,"text":"再麻煩我們勞動部這邊按照吳宗憲委員剛剛給的意見好 謝謝委員 謝謝接下來請林國成委好 謝謝主席 請何部長還有我們"},{"start":13184.872,"end":13185.213,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13200.936,"end":13229.269,"text":"我想何部長大家都知道啦你對勞工啊因為本席啊也是勞工出身你對勞工確確實實啊是非常盡心啊也想要來幫助勞工啊做一些確保跟安全的工作這個無庸置疑大家勞工界啊對於都你對於都肯定但是我還是要拜託啦有些立委啊拜託你跟勞工有關的事啊你要勇於承擔"},{"start":13230.69,"end":13253.805,"text":"該答應的就答應因為保護勞工是你的職責替勞工爭取權利也是你勞動部長應該做的事所以在這裡我還是提醒你該勇於的就勇於該協調的就協調這樣的話會做的讓勞工覺得是百分百的勞動部長所以這個我要提醒我們部長"},{"start":13254.795,"end":13262.113,"text":"另外一個啊這個我們這個老花署的署長我必須就要提醒你一個"},{"start":13263.591,"end":13290.607,"text":"當然勞工啊本國勞工啊跟移工啊的勞工啊還是都要照顧但是我在這裡啊特別要花現那個那個要給部長跟署長啊特別提醒一件事在去年7月2號荷華移工被酒醉撞死到現在為止"},{"start":13291.906,"end":13298.871,"text":"不曉得何氣何寵昨天可憐啊 泰國官方才來陳請立委"},{"start":13301.257,"end":13329.131,"text":"部長他是合法移工過來這裡7月2號被酒駕撞死那這件事情我不曉得因為我很清楚我們那個勞花署這裡是有特別單位在管勞工管理也就是你合法聘入那當然仲介公司要負責這些輔導追蹤那據我了解在半年以內"},{"start":13330.592,"end":13351.582,"text":"他是要訪視的他是要訪視的那我就覺得很奇怪他過來四個月連訪視也沒有人死了以後各單位通通不管包括警察包括地檢署只開出死亡證明書是意外署長"},{"start":13353.203,"end":13370.832,"text":"你這件事情你們到底掌握有多少這個案子當然不是何部長但是最起碼我們勞花署這裡不能不知道管外勞管移工這個不能不知道所以署長你認為對這件案子你有什麼掌握沒有"},{"start":13372.553,"end":13397.923,"text":"跟委員報告齁 因為每一個發生這個個案 因為只要我們確認 第一個我們就會主動去聯繫 像這個案子我印象中 其實我們第一時間喔 馬上跟我們的地方政府跟我們的駐台機構 剛剛委員提到那個代股駐台辦事處 因為基本上因為合法移工 如果殺出到酒駕壯士 基本上這個對移工是一個好啦這件有沒有 這件有沒有結論"},{"start":13399.003,"end":13422.05,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子我們後續一定會追蹤因為只要是合法移動不是要後續喔那個蔡組長去年7月2號到現在你知道這件事情已經到了什麼階段他把骨灰潭都是用公家的力道把他送回去但是我請問一下"},{"start":13423.26,"end":13441.848,"text":"負責引進的仲介公司他都沒有給你們回報嗎?陶藝要跟你們回報欸!花生意外要跟你們回報欸!然後仿事結果要給你們回報欸!所以我不曉得現在到底掌握的情況是如何現在怎麼結果?"},{"start":13448.36,"end":13471.766,"text":"沒關係啦 我也不會為難你啦我知道你也管了很多啦要管執行還要管這些但是問題出來就是有瑕疵問題出來就是要改進所以人死了一年多仲介公司不跟你們回報地方政府勞動局不跟你們回報這叫什麼監督有問題"},{"start":13473.427,"end":13497.515,"text":"所以這個合法移工死了以後不明不白到現在檢察官喝酒你知道死了多慘嗎他是酒醉撞他以後跳過去前隔壁快速道路結果一步給他忍過另外一步再給他忍過"},{"start":13498.854,"end":13524.726,"text":"部長 署長我們將心比心雖然他是移工但是我們是合法引進的移工這是國跟國的對移工勞犬的職災保障這是丟臉欸所以我希望部長你要下令去追究不管是你勞動部不管你是外交部這些東西都要聯繫啊不是嗎部長"},{"start":13527.828,"end":13554.965,"text":"我們來這個跟泰國辦事處我們也來聯繫瞭解一下這個個案這個陳情案子很可笑又很可憐是泰國辦事處跟我陳情的這就代表什麼就代表雖然我們泰國的移工不多可是最起碼的話問題很多所以在這個部分部長我拜託你以你部長之尊"},{"start":13555.825,"end":13579.302,"text":"了解這件事情對實則有所交代這對全世界的人移工來這裡人家才會放心好不好所以結果我希望我們蔡署長跟部長給我一個資訊追到哪一個階段好不好我們一個禮拜內就跟委員討論謝謝林國城委員接下來羅志強委員發言謝謝"},{"start":13591.846,"end":13605.96,"text":"主席有請部長有請何部長委員好首先想請教部長您覺得在這幾年我們民進黨政府的努力之下低薪的問題改善的如何"},{"start":13607.992,"end":13623.701,"text":"不敢說百分百可是說真的委員我們確實真的有提升包括最低工資到經常性薪資那我想請教您那個過去三年受雇員工的經常性薪資是增加還是減少"},{"start":13624.813,"end":13631.718,"text":"是增加的啊增加的嗎你要不要去看勞動統計網勞動統計網是政府的網站吧是2021年他列的數據是-0.162022年是-0.242023年是-0.25部長那我是這個勞動統計網是外星網嗎我看錯了嗎"},{"start":13650.117,"end":13675.854,"text":"你數字可能還是掌握清楚一點好不好這是我們幫助從勞動統計網找的數字沒關係我們繼續來講我想跟部長說會後你再把資料給我我跟部長說連續三年如果按照勞動統計網受僱員工經常薪資薪資都是下降的那我覺得說真的我覺得部長勞動部的努力空間可能要更大一點不好意思委員"},{"start":13685.642,"end":13686.783,"text":"我再想請教你也是根據勞動統計網啦過去10年裡哪一年實質薪資減少最多部長告訴我"},{"start":13710.267,"end":13726.553,"text":"當然我看你真的對勞動統計網不太熟悉政府的資訊網站的數字還是注意一下我告訴部長就是去年負1.79那這個減幅是除了2008年2009年全世界爆發金融危機以來勞動統計網從1999年20多年來統計裡面減幅最高的一年"},{"start":13740.526,"end":13751.307,"text":"沒有國際金融危機也沒有重大天災我不太清楚我去年如果說實質薪資大幅倒退的原因是什麼部長可以告訴我嗎去年到底發生什麼事情"},{"start":13752.934,"end":13773.124,"text":"疫情期間 疫情結束 去年疫情結束 可是才剛結束 理論上應該發生在疫情當下 疫情結束 理論上應該經濟是復甦的吧 尤其去年是疫情剛結束那一年 經濟應該是開始復甦吧 沒有關係部長我再請教下一個問題"},{"start":13776.793,"end":13798.386,"text":"111年,受僱員工全年薪資平均數是69.3萬,對不對?這主計總署的資料那你認為有多少比例的勞工薪資比69.3萬低?就是比這個所謂的勞工的朋友比這個平均數的數字低"},{"start":13801.124,"end":13827.036,"text":"我也告訴您啦是68.61所以換言之有近七成的勞工薪資是沒有達到平均我先這樣講我跟那個部長為什麼要問這個問題你應該知道我們最近這個物價的騰貴的問題是勞工朋友很在乎的嘛對不對像剛剛前吳宗憲委員也講到我們台灣的工時也是全世界這個排行非常赫赫有名的工時長嘛對不對"},{"start":13828.217,"end":13856.574,"text":"那你這樣物價騰貴工時超長又再薪資倒退我說真的這種勞工三苦身為勞動部部長我覺得你們的努力可能要再多加一把勁可以嗎我以為不過我們工時其實真的那個不是你跟我講現在我們工時並不長啊沒有沒有我們工時那是因為我們的全時的工時人數多啦部長你去你去跟你去跟我們勞工朋友交代一下如果你的你的所謂的"},{"start":13857.194,"end":13882.764,"text":"政府的首長經驗的觀感落差跟我們現在勞工朋友落差這麼大的話我覺得那就像你不太了解我們的勞動統計網的數字一樣我會有點擔心啦所以我跟你講就是說要多一點同理心那是解決問題的前提我想要問您下一個問題政府說要推動五年期的AI發展戰略計畫要砸多少錢五年要砸多少錢"},{"start":13887.356,"end":13903.353,"text":"190億元那當然AI不是現在開始做其實政府這個過去都有投入一定的預算那我想請教一下您知道勞動部過去針對職安有運用科技智慧的計畫是哪個計畫你知道嗎我們職安署嗎對對對"},{"start":13905.418,"end":13905.878,"text":"我請署長回答好嗎?"},{"start":13922.703,"end":13927.028,"text":"我講經費你看對不對啦一億四千萬嘛對不對一億四千三百三十萬嘛"},{"start":13939.62,"end":13941.861,"text":"這個平台資料庫設計以來他是要來建制全國工作者職業安全衛生資料結果花了一億十千萬總共只收入到一成"},{"start":13964.924,"end":13984.231,"text":"三年的時間只收錄到一成九成的資料沒有部長你覺得你滿意嗎我問部長啊你滿意嗎所以我跟你講AI我們當然是贊同但是如果以過去這種績效我覺得恐怕要加把勁了李少謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝羅志祥委員接下來請吳琛琛委員發言"},{"start":13995.302,"end":14016.121,"text":"麻煩何部長有請何部長委員好部長好辛苦你了勞動部還是感謝勞動部幾乎每天都有壯世代的新聞各地都在推動55plus的一些就業獎勵的活動"},{"start":14018.363,"end":14041.521,"text":"所以我要封我們部長勞動部是壯世代的自由女神壯世代能不能解放要看勞動部對你期待很高不過我要跟部長也報告這一期上週的封面有提到預言臺灣再4年恐找不到新的員工"},{"start":14045.224,"end":14055.012,"text":"用了三十幾頁報導百大企業對於高齡員工的聘僱的情形這個勞動部的關注我們看這個情況百強企業90%上市歸公司這個是從2023年的企業永續報告書裡面統計出來的"},{"start":14072.109,"end":14092.915,"text":"進用的新進的員工9393是50歲以下對於51歲以上只有7%大家還是不太聘用比例還是很低所以勞動部這麼努力在推但是還是很低但是事實上在全體員工比例當中51歲已經佔了20%所以這裡要問到2028年2028年下次總統的選舉"},{"start":14102.591,"end":14114.144,"text":"那這個臺灣人口紅利結束也就是說工作人口低於三分之二然後現在在講我們45歲還要稱他叫中高齡嗎"},{"start":14117.775,"end":14138.105,"text":"政府還在歧視高齡者嗎?企業只要新鮮的肝嗎?台灣還是屬於這樣等級的社會嗎?所以這已經到了企業生死存亡的關頭企業有沒有這個警覺性?看起來是沒有所以勞動部還是要加把勁"},{"start":14139.125,"end":14139.925,"text":"另外一個看了就在11年後"},{"start":14165.242,"end":14173.032,"text":"青年的工作25到44歲只有23%占不到四分之一然後"},{"start":14177.386,"end":14196.94,"text":"這個45 45歲以上所謂中高齡以上還是社會的主力所以呢我們要對這塊更加的重視更加的重視可以好那我這裡要請請問部長就上個上個會期跟我跟王真旭委員共同推提案推通過勞基法第54條的修正案"},{"start":14198.641,"end":14209.669,"text":"這個修正案就是鬆綁的勞資協商對有餘願工中可以延長資這個引起媒體很大的幾乎是頭版報導這個是一個劃時代勞動部做一個劃時代的一個創舉"},{"start":14214.192,"end":14237.019,"text":"但到現在很多人還是在質疑這個只是一個宣誓性的因為本來勞資協商就可以延長了還需要你立法嗎所以跟修法前跟修法後有什麼不一樣而且這個協商如果是完全是不公平的是僱主同不同意的話那這也不需要協商了所以我這裡要問這個"},{"start":14238.939,"end":14259.809,"text":"在三讀之後像在今年的審計部有針對勞動部這裡對於在強制退休繼續聘僱上的主導權還是由僱主掌握那對有意願繼續工作的勞工恐被迫接受減薪或其他不公平的待遇導致更不穩定的職場環境這些審計部的"},{"start":14262.73,"end":14268.715,"text":"的研究報告那我要問部長請問這個協商機制什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":14271.849,"end":14288.901,"text":"委員報告其實我們本來勞資雙方就有協商的機制本來就有協商機制就是說當然針對你這個延後退休的這樣子的協商他這個議題你當然一定本來現在就有勞資會議或是公會的團體協約去協商那麼其實我現在也是在鼓勵應該是這樣那是一個文化的問題就是說"},{"start":14299.289,"end":14315.928,"text":"我們台灣中小企業居多啦吼那麼我們如果能夠從政府部門或是我們就從國公營企業帶頭的話從有規模的企業帶頭來做就是說你從有工會協商能力的這樣子的企業可能帶頭協商"},{"start":14317.769,"end":14340.76,"text":"所以看起來我們這個法通過之後沒有協商辦法就協商辦法是舊的沒有對這個專屬因為這件事情這個事情非常的重大不論只是比如說一般性的協商對延後退休然後原來的協商這一件事情非常的重要所以我是不是可以請勞動部"},{"start":14343.011,"end":14367.887,"text":"專對這個退休協商這個是不是應該有一個專屬的而且這個必須要是站在公平的像比如說這裡我提到像那個北歐國家像丹麥他們對於這種員工勞工提出他有工作意願僱主必須要提出書面如果僱主不答應的話必須提出書面說他會影響到"},{"start":14369.404,"end":14370.905,"text":"謝謝吳村臣委員接下來請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":14411.674,"end":14436.661,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請我們勞動部部長有請何部長委員好部長好先請教部長一個問題請問我國會是會邁入超高齡社會就2022今年明年明年是在2025年對國會邁入超高齡社會那部長本期在上個會期有提到80歲以上的長者免巴士量表請問後續你們對這個議題討論到什麼地方目前進度為何"},{"start":14440.713,"end":14455.718,"text":"委員我們當然80歲以上免巴氏量表這是一個修這是我們在黨委員的修法案然後我們比較不贊成用一個80歲這樣的線來劃分免巴氏量表我們現在用擴大多元免評"},{"start":14457.879,"end":14470.347,"text":"來這樣的措施來處理所以我們現在其實所謂的擴大多元免貧已經有包括第一個使用長照服務6個月以上是長照服務2.0半年以上就可以免貧了然後要針對這個2.0長照2.0這邊提到方官看護申請只要連續使用長照2.0半年以上嗎"},{"start":14482.215,"end":14496.564,"text":"有輕度失智診斷或是特定中度的身心障礙就可以免巴氏量表可是使用長照2.0半年以上就表示他有照護需求那這半年的空窗請問部長家屬要怎麼來處理"},{"start":14498.198,"end":14525.398,"text":"你說6個月那個空窗嗎對就表示他竟然已經使用半年以上就表示他有照護需求那家屬要怎麼來他本來就有啊他本來就有我是指他就是有這個需求他們就是需要巴士量表我是說他如果我們把他來放寬的話那比如那如果這些當事人他們去醫院定期都要回診那眼前的空窗期在家屬發現他們有異狀的時候又需要上班的話那這些家人怎麼"},{"start":14525.698,"end":14549.887,"text":"是就是所以我們也推了擴大擴大喘息就是說還有包括我們現在我就是要推那個多元陪伴服務方案就是希望能夠cover這種有短期照顧需求的就是我們跟NGO合作然後那個跟讓NGO跟六職仲介合作然後那麼我們聘移工"},{"start":14551.167,"end":14551.347,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14570.163,"end":14597.989,"text":"民怨的財源那第二是高齡者超過90%都跟子女同住那所以高齡者的狀況他們的情形他們的子女最知道那當高齡者他們出現退化的問題的時候那子女只能先在他們申請政府的支援之前他們優先想到的就是來申請看護那子女他們才能夠順利出門上班可是那這邊請問部長一個問題喔金水跟台積的看護他們的落差大概是多大台積的看護跟外籍"},{"start":14599.551,"end":14600.734,"text":"當然差距相當大部長瞭解嗎?"},{"start":14607.386,"end":14628.542,"text":"以現在當然可能有到一半的差距就本席的了解外籍的看護是兩萬多塊一個月那我們台籍的看護一個月可能要五六萬塊所以這差距非常大那部長那台籍看護一天的薪水行情是台幣2800多元那是很多上班族都是付班不起的金額"},{"start":14630.162,"end":14656.951,"text":"護士長者他們要去上班那長者在家的時候可能會有一些狀況比如說他們忘記服藥或是跌倒還是煮飯忘記關火或是出門的時候因為認知的問題還是他們肌力退化那導致出車禍或在路上跌倒然後沒有旁邊沒有人照顧那部長你有看到他們這些家庭的問題嗎是是是所以我才要推那個多元陪伴服務方案是那是不是放寬巴士量表我們來修法的話會比較快一點"},{"start":14657.751,"end":14677.259,"text":"我們也會擴大多元免貧就是我們比較擔心用這個年齡限來劃會變成有需要跟沒需要的全部都會申請那會造成現在的缺工抗護工的缺工的狀態會更嚴峻主要是有這個顧慮"},{"start":14679.32,"end":14692.407,"text":"會造成他們會挑工作那麼你會更難照顧對就是說你那個照顧會更緊繃啦那個照顧的所以這個恐怕沒有辦法真的解決這個照顧的問題"},{"start":14693.968,"end":14697.652,"text":"市場勞動力不足,除了勞動力不足之外,人口高齡化對於看護的需求是增加的。我們必須要對這件事解決人力的問題。"},{"start":14710.267,"end":14737.5,"text":"對所以我們現在也在對這一個我覺得為什麼要推多元陪伴服務方案就是這樣子希望能夠把移工也進度照顧領域這個部分能夠來把它用國家的力量把它建置起來這樣子那部長那本席還是希望您回去可以和就是我們勞動部再討論一套就是巴士表演表的政策那根據本席今天向您提出的目前很多家庭的需求是是是當然謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":14739.601,"end":14743.866,"text":"好謝謝邱樂華委員接下來請牛錫廷委員發言好謝謝主席這個勞動部部長有請有請何部長"},{"start":14759.711,"end":14787.305,"text":"委員好部長午安前一段時間颱風清洗風災政治學又被端上檯面各地的網友無不在臉書上敲碗盛讚各地的首長長得很帥或長得很美就是希望在放颱風架的時候可以從寬認定讓颱風架大家可以休息一下這部長以前的時候可能大家對這件事情不會那麼在乎可是這幾年大家對於颱風架其實是非常積極在要求部長覺得原因是什麼"},{"start":14789.616,"end":14814.196,"text":"當然我想氣候變遷也許颱風不是氣候啦你從一般人民百姓的角度出發就是工作太累了嘛希望颱風當然我們都同意政府在決策的過程中當然應該以安全為第一要務對不對但是你會發現有的時候欸剛剛好風災來然後沒風沒雨的時候結果大家跑去KTV跑去逛街對不對欸那個平常是什麼時候做的事是假日的時候在做的事"},{"start":14814.716,"end":14814.816,"text":"兩千...當然..."},{"start":14844.827,"end":14844.847,"text":"對﹖那個"},{"start":14866.397,"end":14895.797,"text":"去年我們是2019個小時對,超過2000還是一樣我們減少了85個小時南韓年度總工時1904日本1626其實跟台灣其實我們經濟上都是競爭的對手可是人家工時就是比我們短而且南韓跟日本都還有15到16天的國定假日其實都比台灣還多所以這個假日的考慮一直都是勞工各級勞工團體跟各級勞工心中非常期待的過去休一例一休的時候把七天假拿掉是所有勞工心中的痛"},{"start":14896.677,"end":14915.343,"text":"我認為這是應該翻篇的因為那個是前朝政府的決策新的政府上任大家其實都對於這個放假制度的再調整有所期待所以本期也提出了這個國定假日跟節日跟紀念日的實施辦法我們把它入法變成條例的方式來做處理就是希望可以幫勞工把假討回來"},{"start":14918.226,"end":14945.306,"text":"除了這個國定假日之外其實台灣不只是國定假日比人家少這個台灣的特休也比很多歐美國家都少歐美國家動輒20天以上的特休甚至有一個月甚至到一個半月的特休兩個月的我都聽過那台灣的特休價格相對少特休少國定假日又少那當然台灣變成過勞之島請問部長新上任新的政府對於解決工時過長的問題針對放假的政策勞動部有沒有任何的修正的想法"},{"start":14946.598,"end":14968.44,"text":"委員第一個我們台灣的這個年總工時你要看他的內涵我們因為我們全時工作者多那日韓部分公司因為我們的部分公司工作者很少只有3%左右日韓他們都有高達20%左右甚至日本有25%的部分公司工作者"},{"start":14969.261,"end":14973.825,"text":"即便是跟全職工作者相比那你想歐美國家也是全職工作者多對不對那他們的工時甚至更少對不對我們比好不比爛嘛"},{"start":14992.161,"end":14992.782,"text":"部長你現在的想法是什麼?"},{"start":15004.202,"end":15030.011,"text":"委員我們在週休二日修法當年一例一休修法的時候已經處理這個問題了當年就是因為增加了116每年都可以修116天比過去多增加休假因為週休二日嘛一例一休那麼所以我們才把七天假所謂拿掉而且委員七天假還有一個大問題是他們都是過時的"},{"start":15032.352,"end":15046.904,"text":"內容可以調整這個是政治因素本席心態非常開放甚至這7天彈性處理我都是可以接受這沒關係這等我們到修法的時候再來討論但是我要提醒部長如果當初我們只是為了落實所謂的週休二日的制度"},{"start":15047.304,"end":15063.458,"text":"只是改了這個東西而不要去砍七天假的話那勞基法其實往好的方向修正可是就是因為你砍了這個七天假反而讓他變成勞工心中的痛我認為在政府改朝換代的同時啊應該做重新的思考現在世界各地很多主流甚至是比如週休三日他的概念都慢慢開始出來"},{"start":15064.179,"end":15083.199,"text":"所以是不是這樣子的一個壓榨勞工的這種這減少放假的然後還導致颱風架等等衍生問題的狀況本期認為有必要來做一些調整所以這些案子這個今天日及節日實施條例草案很快就會有公聽會很快就會有審查希望勞動部做好準備也希望不要被過去的框架跟包袱所拖累"},{"start":15083.9,"end":15108.719,"text":"如果能夠審視現在的國際趨勢或者是站在勞工的本位從降低我們的工時提高勞工的待遇來出發做好的修繕這是我們期待部長上任之後可以完成的重要政策目標請部長納入思考可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝好謝謝牛許廷委員發言接下來請麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":15121.133,"end":15123.938,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請勞動部部長請部長你好"},{"start":15129.653,"end":15152.516,"text":"部長,這個針對現在產業缺工的狀況,部長你應該心中聽到很多企業都會抱怨那你們心中覺得說這個產業缺工到底是什麼原因是薪水不夠還是年輕人對於產業對於工作項目不期待到底是什麼原因"},{"start":15153.766,"end":15161.747,"text":"委員其實缺工的原因當然一方面有結構性的因素當然少子化嘛那另一方面當然也有疫後"},{"start":15163.549,"end":15185.424,"text":"臨時性的需求的爆發因為前面有很多人就退場了嘛比如說服務業好了那麼這一後他臨時性的需求爆發亦是找不到人也有這樣的因素這個因素是比較大的事實上對產業我相信你都知道事實上他們在招募的時候他們是沒辦法"},{"start":15186.925,"end":15211.452,"text":"從等級的年輕人去尋找到他們需要的勞動力需求因為意願不高因為現在年輕人比較不喜歡被管而且他們現在進入AI的時代他們也覺得說更喜歡是比較自由高度自由的所以你以類似在工廠類似在餐飲在服務業這個需要被管理"},{"start":15212.452,"end":15223.34,"text":"的產業年輕人不去所以他們需要移工但是我們台灣的移工政策我們還是活在過去三K五極致就是要有一定的比例"},{"start":15224.229,"end":15244.916,"text":"吼要這個比例啊那你為了這個比例的我比方說好我食品製造業我製造業啊我製造業食品製造我是屬於西級的那我西級的一個食品製造業我為了請一個移工我可能要請我這樣要請多少要請七個本級的勞工我才能聘請一個移工問題我這七個我就找不來"},{"start":15246.161,"end":15267.87,"text":"我就找不來這七個所以我根本要請這樣一個移工都很困難所以部長你再認真去看吶吼現在我們臺灣都是比跟日韓對比嘛現在日本跟韓國他們就在做移工政策的競賽兩個國家在那邊說吼我對一個國家對移工比較讚所以我們我舉日本吶吼"},{"start":15268.63,"end":15286.858,"text":"日本在2019年就開放藍領可以招募外國移工然後居留5年然後針對建築業造船船舶機械業的監督的職務無居留期限而且還能帶家人一起前往"},{"start":15288.359,"end":15312.686,"text":"無拘留期限捏我們現在臺灣我們只有叫做陸籍我們還沒有永居捏臺灣現在連永居的制度都還沒有日本就已經創造了這樣無拘留期限還可以帶家人一起去住在2023年就去年6月的時候日本還更進一步他所謂岸田要在這所項的所謂他抓雙倍工包括製造業包括農業包括旅宿餐飲"},{"start":15314.762,"end":15318.691,"text":"家的產業都可以聘請移工也是無限期居留"},{"start":15320.342,"end":15345.053,"text":"也是可以帶家人同往哇我們現在台灣餐飲業都還沒有看都沒辦法變成移工的那我們都一直有一個觀念說哎不行不行這些移工來會搶了台灣年輕人的工作可是問題事實也不是這樣啊那既然我們知道事實就不是這樣的話我們為什麼不大步向前走把整個移工政策徹底的鬆綁"},{"start":15347.665,"end":15350.931,"text":"讓整個臺灣的勞動力補足而且只要臺灣越國際臺灣就越安全"},{"start":15355.114,"end":15377.785,"text":"部長我想要聽一下你的是委員這個問題確實就是委員是像講的是當今我們所面臨的重大問題是我們自己在調查的最新的缺工調查裡面我們也發現您講的其實是所謂的中階技術人才這一塊是我們目前最缺的我們其實在最基層的體力"},{"start":15379.326,"end":15393.526,"text":"的移工內部份其實補的都OK了那當然一個是部長你有沒有看到我剛講的包括餐飲啊包括這個住宿業他是沒有辦法的啊我剛有舉例到啊日本都已經開放了啊"},{"start":15394.861,"end":15396.322,"text":"委員我注意到我們現在當然經濟委員會有很多委員也提了過去的新經濟移民法"},{"start":15417.142,"end":15432.619,"text":"﹗"},{"start":15433.019,"end":15451.21,"text":"會跟國發會合作,會有一些鬆綁關於中階技術人才的開放。對,對外型人才的開放。OK,除了中階技術人才,事實上一些傳統的比較工作性質比較辛苦的,所以我們說的3K產業,他們對移工需求也是很大。對委員這部分我們會來檢討。而且你們在檢討的速度很慢。"},{"start":15452.49,"end":15477.302,"text":"我剛以前我還跟你說這個漁產的加工漁產的加工對不對從我從當時15%那我再跟你們講欸這不公平因為水產品的加工是15%那如果是蓄產品的加工是25%我講應該要讓它一致啊為什麼水產品對不對做水產的含含那個切地肉的為什麼要讓他沒工啊他想我講這個要檢討結果用兩天的時間"},{"start":15480.524,"end":15497.398,"text":"才把他檢討讓他一致那我最近我有發現說欸台灣我們有很多在做高空煙火的不是傳統的那種炮竹工廠在做高空煙火的我們店舖也有一間嘛欸這個高空煙火他是賣到迪士尼可是你知道做煙火的產業具有危險性"},{"start":15498.649,"end":15514.597,"text":"要去聘請台灣人有困難有困難所以他需要移工哇沒辦法他還沒有被開放那如果我要招待個兩年的話在在一個產業讓他可以被檢討進去要兩年的時間真的是太久了啦"},{"start":15515.077,"end":15538.906,"text":"委員我了解我其實我現在針對這一種只要是主管機關有提案我們都盡量鬆綁像最近我們已經通過農業部再增加8000的農業移工然後還有包括環境資源環境部他對這一種資源回收產業方面沒有過去沒有適用移工的我們也開放讓他讓他進來因為我聽到了很多東南亞的他們上次給我訊息"},{"start":15544.628,"end":15568.209,"text":"現在去泰國工作 去當泰國的移工 去泰國做移工 今天那間不比台灣更賣所以現在很多人跑去泰國做移工喔 以前是泰國人來我們台灣來幫我們做工作的 現在是大家都跑去泰國了所以這個世界正在改變 全世界都面對少子化 也不是只有台灣有少子化"},{"start":15568.609,"end":15593.47,"text":"但是臺灣的政策卻走得比人家還慢這個是我們要趕快加緊腳步來調整好不好好謝謝委員接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在請廖先祥委員廖先祥委員廖先祥委員不在請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請岳元之委員"},{"start":15608.234,"end":15610.876,"text":"不好意思,麻煩請部長,謝謝來,請部長委員好你好,部長好我先問一下,我們之前把那個勞基法第54條有關於65歲強制退休的聽話板打開了嘛就是說65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調看看要不要退休當初的用意是什麼"},{"start":15630.221,"end":15651.335,"text":"這是立法院委員的提案那麼當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法所以我們也非常支持我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休一方面是說讓勞工到65歲以上如果他還可以繼續工作的話也可以讓他繼續工作嘛也增加了社會的勞動人口解決一些勞動的問題但我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情我跟部長講一個狀況我們新北市有一個學校的工友"},{"start":15659.701,"end":15689.701,"text":"﹗"},{"start":15690.742,"end":15716.763,"text":"我是不太懂說公有的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩個有什麼相關啊但因為學校非常需要公有之前是人事行政總局他因為實施公有精簡計劃你說欲缺不補這個我們都了解可是現在是公有要延長退休的時間這個是第一個這兩回事啊第二個先因為人事行政總局總處實施這種公有精簡導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況第一個狀況"},{"start":15719.445,"end":15733.615,"text":"阿公有的工作還是要有人做阿他平常要維修這個設備阿修剪花草阿遞送公文阿最後這些工作誰來做?老師來做因為精簡公有了嘛就影響到老師教學嘛阿第二件事情是"},{"start":15735.477,"end":15760.67,"text":"這個因為還有人要做所以學校怎麼樣學校就拿預算去外包給一般的人來做公有要做的工作那不是一樣的意思你有節省公帑嗎你沒有節省公帑而且人家公有又15歲想要延長卻不可以基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬啦那教育局新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事警政總處啦再請他含釋把學校需求告訴他"},{"start":15761.79,"end":15773.921,"text":"我也希望說勞動部可以本於剛剛我們講的那個法案修法之後這個利益良善的部分也可以跟人事總署講一下這個為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休"},{"start":15775.645,"end":15797.298,"text":"是 謝謝委員其實這個確實您講的沒有錯就是說我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動這樣的改變這樣的就是帶頭做這樣的的落實這個勞基法54條修正案的這樣的努力然後那我知道是人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論就是關於這部分也要來放寬"},{"start":15797.958,"end":15823.07,"text":"有嗎?確定了?什麼時候會告訴大家?當然可是這不是我的職權啦所以我瞭解是因為今天是你在嘛所以你就很知道要回答一下我們其實是對人種對人事總署我們也表達過這樣的希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有應對的這樣子的不能講的齁我們這個東西利益良善但是我們法案並沒有說他一定可以延長他必須要先勞資協調那勞資協調那你要看資方的態度嗎"},{"start":15826.311,"end":15847.973,"text":"當然我們鼓勵資方說只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業我們也鼓勵嘛我們鼓勵資方做這個事結果身為公部門的人事警政總署說不好意思不可以公有呢你給我強制退休那民間企業看到會怎樣哎呀反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊那我是一個企業我不讓他們繼續就業還好吧剛好而已吧"},{"start":15849.274,"end":15869.489,"text":"你今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情你有做到我們的這個對高齡的就業人口友善的這樣一個環境嗎?沒有嗎?我們也有努力來跟人種來溝通有跟他們溝通是不是?有機會出城是不是?那大概什麼時候?有機會出城但是可能是牛年馬月大概3年後"},{"start":15870.529,"end":15894.457,"text":"大概什麼時候我們來積極了解一下好不好沒有啦 不然我今天進來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛您去跟人種可不可以盡快我們盡量積極來促成大概多久我也是真的不知道我能決定的是一個月促成半年促成還是一年促成這等院核定這等行政院核定正在等院核定是不是不不不 我的意思是說我知道人種正在跟行政院正在討論照所以是行政院在卡"},{"start":15895.282,"end":15897.243,"text":"我們希望能夠促成公部門啦其實也不是只有您教育局這種例子啦"},{"start":15912.749,"end":15934.915,"text":"比如說像我們公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員他們有延退的這樣的想法然後覺得他們還能貢獻那也事實上機關也需要因為有人力斷層所以這樣的話我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家我們能夠來合一來協商我想說大家的目標都是第一個希望解"},{"start":15937.216,"end":15937.236,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":15966.394,"end":15982.345,"text":"好謝謝謝謝葉委員接下來請鄭正成委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在請高金素美委員請高金素美委員高金素美委員不在請楊委員要來選擇"},{"start":15996.401,"end":16014.971,"text":"謝謝主席,主席請教何部長來有請部長部長好,今天做業務報告我覺得勞動部現在可能最主要的業務就是我們要面對勞保的財務問題"},{"start":16020.588,"end":16039.226,"text":"我今天大概就是簡要的跟部長來探討幾個問題第一個問題就是基於政府施政的連貫性跟一致性所以有幾個許前部長曾經講過的"},{"start":16042.429,"end":16063.306,"text":"的政策宣誓我先來確認一下所以學員部長曾經講過就是說勞保年金重視掉了烏紗帽他也要做部長你有沒有這種決心不過他有這個決心他也是到現在都沒有做你有沒有決心"},{"start":16066.49,"end":16083.443,"text":"我就是說勞保年改的問題因為我們現在都已經用預算撥補然後再落實改革這其實就是改革的一環可是我要跟您強調這個所謂的勞保年改在我的"},{"start":16087.902,"end":16089.144,"text":"這個好像也是大家的原則"},{"start":16103.08,"end":16103.66,"text":"對我已經提案了齁"},{"start":16132.844,"end":16158.564,"text":"是是是這當然我們尊重那部長你既然直接就跳到這裡我就直接問就是說你的概念裡面在不砍年金我是講說不砍年金可能是大家的最大攻勢那不砍年金你覺得你要怎麼推動改革對所以我的改革就是撥補或者我直接問好了就是說明年政府撥補多少"},{"start":16159.656,"end":16166.24,"text":"一千三百億後年呢後年一樣維持這樣的水準或是更多那到後年呢"},{"start":16168.854,"end":16194.961,"text":"現在最大的問題就是說大家都覺得退休勞工領的年金其實已經以臺灣目前的生活物價指數已經算偏低了所以要再減少真的不可能可能馬上會變成社會救助的一部分要去找衛福部領錢"},{"start":16200.737,"end":16220.251,"text":"所以還是只有波普波普是其中當然是波普就是最主要的啦不是波普應該這麼講我講白話波普是最簡單的可是問題是政府的財政有沒有辦法一直支應"},{"start":16221.962,"end":16242.628,"text":"以目前的狀況來看還是樂觀的啦因為是這樣齁 鐵塔的衙門流水的關啦就是說許民村撐了6年離職了那都是撥補嘛就是提出唯一的改革方向就是撥補好那你現在也說撥補那這裡你們那最少你們要去精算說說明年撥補多少後年撥補多少"},{"start":16252.75,"end":16270.355,"text":"對財政的對整個中央政府預算的衝擊多少我相信一個保險保險人口超過1000萬在台灣占比那麼高的情況下你們要撥補可能藍綠白沒有委員敢說不"},{"start":16276.977,"end":16304.952,"text":"可是問題是你們最少也必須要去算出來說到底到了哪一年變成我們搶救的不是勞保年金是中央政府總預算懂我的意思嗎其實你想想看我們才撥補一千兩百一千三百億我們現在的政府總預算是三兆一千億就是我們的政府的這個會逐年提高的"},{"start":16306.109,"end":16333.949,"text":"我當然知道現在一千多億可是搞不好三年以後要變成三千億還不至於啦還不至於我們這個我們都有我們有去去精算過這些數字啦對所以以目前政府的財政來講還是相對樂觀的我們是絕對有能力撥補的所以就是就是除了撥補以外並沒有其他的想法"},{"start":16335.531,"end":16352.658,"text":"我們希望另外一個如果勞基法54條這一個所謂的我們合意延退其實延退也是一個符合現在中高齡就業的趨勢這是一個在現在也許勉強"},{"start":16354.039,"end":16378.805,"text":"是社會可以接受的一個做法可是呢我們也是希望能夠先從這個雙方合議柔性的延退方式來下手這樣子總算是還講了一個延退不過延退呢對於整個勞保基金的危機其實是杯水車薪就是說影響沒有很大還有沒有其他的"},{"start":16379.685,"end":16385.306,"text":"今天就是你把你想得到的都講一下"},{"start":16386.644,"end":16403.81,"text":"我能講的就是這樣了因為說真的當然你想想看我們還有包括政府的財政政府的經濟發展的好也是一個很重要的因素啦所以你看我們撥補1300億下去我們歷年我們累積撥補了3870億嘛那我們是下去再繼續進行投資的當然我們的經濟發展的好"},{"start":16413.666,"end":16440.243,"text":"對,我們經濟發展得好每年收益率現在是14%、15%嘛所以我們像去年我們去年到今年8月我們賺了1300億等於是我們撥補了兩次欸如果是一種我們都要撥補每年1300億來算啦今年一到八月就有1300億基金的收益本來就是基金的來源了啦基金的投資收益本來就是基金來源我們的勞保的基金是一個"},{"start":16441.564,"end":16465.079,"text":"這是一個整體我們要整體來看待啦就是說你不要只從收入多少支出多少這樣去看我們有多元的收入欸我們有投資的收益不是現在就是現在就是賣一些不夠所以才要撥撥補嘛啊都都部長你懂我的意思嗎你現在不用再去再去講其他的的基金"},{"start":16466.368,"end":16468.129,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":16488.036,"end":16488.957,"text":"這一句話我倒不認同"},{"start":16518.187,"end":16535.415,"text":"我覺得怎麼讓怎麼讓讓勞保健全化然後讓勞工安心才是一個好的政府你說經濟的發展假如沒有辦法直接直接直接"},{"start":16537.199,"end":16562.644,"text":"直接導致勞保可以健全的改革發展然後讓退休的勞工我剛剛講過他的投保人數幾乎佔了台灣的半數一個影響面這麼大的東西那今天看起來就是就是部長目前的想法也就只有波普啦波普我剛剛講過我已經有幫你們"},{"start":16566.385,"end":16580.418,"text":"幫你們提案齁要把基金的來源包括政府的撥補那我們也希望執政黨可以支持"},{"start":16581.599,"end":16608.094,"text":"政府負擔最終支付責任這樣子的法律修正因為勞工辛苦了一輩子到最後現在領的錢已經夠少了我今天實驗的關係還沒有跟你討論到目前領的再搭配通貨膨脹過10年以後勞工的退休生活會多麼艱困"},{"start":16608.908,"end":16631.905,"text":"我絕對支持撥補入法的修法這個是沒有問題的不過我還是要提醒部長就是假如說假如說勞動部就是對於勞保勞保年改的政策方向就是一直以來都是政府撥補那我覺得這個問題永遠沒有辦法解決了謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":16641.352,"end":16642.814,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長"},{"start":16653.277,"end":16657.061,"text":"五個月當中勞動部要怎麼樣確實保障每一位勞工的權益其實我在最近也聽到很多就是說"},{"start":16674.117,"end":16697.365,"text":"現在其實傳統產業非常的不景氣這是確實喔傳統產業真的我們看到可能就是一些電子產業半導體算是還非常非常的好可是傳統產業真的非常的不景氣那我想請教就是說在針對這個勞工的這個權益剛剛楊委員有特別提到有關這個這個部長講就是說撥補就是"},{"start":16701.966,"end":16707.408,"text":"對於勞工的權益我們勞動部這邊還有什麼需要再加強的是當然委員謝謝委員就是的提醒我想勞工的權益當然永遠都會是我們需要努力的方向跟目標那麼我想當前對我來講就是"},{"start":16725.595,"end":16737.327,"text":"希望能夠提升勞工薪資是我上任以來也是一個很重要的工作那麼要務實的去面對缺工的問題也不能讓缺工等於低薪這也是我另外一個要面對的課題所以這中間的全行拿捏當然我們都必須去面對"},{"start":16742.512,"end":16751.258,"text":"那是我想委員當然提示就是傳產傳產這邊所面臨的困境我們也看到這個問題所以我在最低工資雖然有漲上來我也對中小微企業我們提出了補助方案我們每一個員工可以讓他補助到1萬塊然後一個企業最多可以補助10萬這個"},{"start":16766.067,"end":16767.449,"text":"其實我們知道說勞工就是算是比較弱勢"},{"start":16784.549,"end":16809.753,"text":"所以我們也希望說勞動部針對勞工權益的部分真的要實時知道就是說勞工真的非常的辛苦要怎麼樣去保障他們的權益那部長我想請教就是說監察院也有表示勞動部跟新北市政府對於這個大量解雇的外籍漁工沒有一個有效的通報機制但因為外籍漁工他也沒有勞保嘛"},{"start":16813.275,"end":16818.639,"text":"有勞保就業保險有將外景漁工納進去?我們近海的漁業現在都讓他適用勞基法業就業保險的部分有納進去嗎?"},{"start":16832.149,"end":16833.19,"text":"外籍移工的生活"},{"start":16850.986,"end":16872.72,"text":"我們是從媒體上面看到的所以我不知道說勞動部跟地方政府你們針對這一部分你們要怎麼樣去保障這些外籍漁工因為如果其實在媒體這樣公布出來甚至如果外媒外籍外國的媒體公布其實對台灣的整體形象是非常不好"},{"start":16873.4,"end":16897.062,"text":"所以我是認為就是說勞動部針對這一部分你們未來要怎麼如果說要被解雇的話那應該要有一個有效的通報應該要有一個管道啊委員其實這個都一直這個是有有這個通報機制的啦那麼就業服務法裡面我們對這樣的被資遣的移工當然他就是允許他轉換雇主嘛"},{"start":16898.022,"end":16922.795,"text":"這是第一個給他的保障第二個我們在所謂的大量解雇法齁其實在如果他可以跟業主協商的話我們沒有排除移工的移工都可以如果說協商雙方可以給付之前或者是什麼費之前費什麼這些移工都一樣可以享用到對那麼關於外籍移工的問題是有他的特殊性啦因為"},{"start":16924.296,"end":16943.62,"text":"外景漁工又分遠洋跟近海您提到的像監察院他糾正的這個是近海的這是算近海的他確實是適用牢籍法沒有錯不過他有一個特性我們近海的漁業他要出海捕魚他會有中間休餘"},{"start":16945.981,"end":16965.606,"text":"議員．"},{"start":16965.706,"end":16985.359,"text":"你也要考慮我們的產業特性啊比如說我的農業我就是有農盲跟這個的本事或是漁業也一樣你不能說一律強制要這個漁業的雇主他在休餘的期間也要雇用他這個就真的是不是很好那這些外籍義工他已經到臺灣就已經在這邊了那你怎麼去解決這個問題"},{"start":16992.223,"end":16992.644,"text":"我請署長再補充說明一下"},{"start":17004.964,"end":17028.635,"text":"我跟委員報告這一次因為新北市它發生了這個休餘的情況確實我們跟農業部漁業署就發現到這種情況之下可能會對外籍移工有造成一個權益上的受損所以第一個監察院當初在關心的時候其實我們跟漁業署現在已經建立了預警跟通報機制那因為所有漁船如果要休餘他是要通報漁政機關那漁政機關過去確實這個訊息沒有傳達給我們"},{"start":17032.057,"end":17056.848,"text":"那現在我們已經建立一個橫向他未來就是說定期會把這些休餘的漁船會跟我們勾肌那勾肌如果確認這個漁工真的因為受到休餘的影響沒有工作我們第一時間我們跟地方政府就開始啟動我們的訪視關懷那這裡面可能會有幾個不同情況有的就是說因為他期間過長那漁工可能沒辦法等待那我們就協助趕快轉換"},{"start":17058.729,"end":17075.469,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":17075.469,"end":17097.09,"text":"．"},{"start":17097.13,"end":17122.706,"text":"那接下來我想請教就是說我們在這幾年當中我們年輕朋友在求職的時候大部分都是透過這個網站可能就是這個私立就業服務機構提供的這個網站那有的可能就是一些業者自己本身架設網站公司機構的網站那我想請教因為我在今年暑假的時候我就碰到"},{"start":17123.906,"end":17137.534,"text":"兩位他是這個大學剛畢業那他是透過這個公司機構自己架設的這個網站求職結果他這個根本就是一個詐騙的公司那結果這個新這個這個"},{"start":17138.855,"end":17152.441,"text":"而新鮮人,算是剛進到這個就業市場的這個新鮮人其實他完全根本也不知道老闆叫他去做的是違法的老闆請他提供他的這個帳"},{"start":17153.982,"end":17173.948,"text":"那個銀行的賬號然後請他他說請他去公園去有客戶然後要繳就是要給公司錢那個收貨款然後就去公司就就去公園去收貨款結果警察就在公司就就在公園附近埋伏結果就把這兩個抓起來了"},{"start":17176.342,"end":17200.308,"text":"所以我想請教就是說勞動部針對我們所有的年輕人他的習慣求職他就是透過這個網站就業私立的就服的這個網站或者是我們自己勞動部的這個網站或者是公司機構自己架設的網站那怎麼樣是讓這些年輕人不要因為這樣子然後受騙"},{"start":17201.328,"end":17203.351,"text":"委員我們跟警政署之間也有這樣的機制我請署長說明一下好不好"},{"start":17217.163,"end":17239.589,"text":"因為網路詐騙這個情況其實跨部會對這個問題都很重視我們現在在目前我們只有幾個措施第一個就是說在民間的能力網站我們已經建立了一個合作機制就是有一些黑名單過去我們就把它下架禁止它刊登第二個就是說民眾可能有這樣的一個物資認知上的問題我們加強宣導我們有求職方便的一些措施"},{"start":17240.369,"end":17267.587,"text":"最後就是說網路現在比較需要跨部會合作與司法警政單位的就是像剛剛委員提到的個人私人架設的或是說像那種FB這種社群媒體因為這個東西都不是在我們目前救護法規管的範圍那現在未來就是說在訴發部跟警政署現在會有一個跨部會的一個平台那我們未來會去合作就是說對於一些有疑似的案件我們就啟動跟司法警察一起來做一個擦板"},{"start":17267.967,"end":17267.987,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":17301.482,"end":17325.448,"text":"接下來請劉建國委員發言好謝謝主席有請部長部長你好部長你114年度送到行政院的總預算勞動部總預算案含基金total是多少"},{"start":17326.375,"end":17347.869,"text":"兩千九百億兩千九百億那一百一十三年一一三年就今年是多少案喔我其實我講的是案不是審查過的啊你是說金額嗎對啊總預算案是多少一一四是兩千九百多億我請我的同仁來回答一下好不好那個會計處"},{"start":17353.164,"end":17354.589,"text":"有人跟你講說是增加還是減少嗎?114對照113是增加還是減少?"},{"start":17360.111,"end":17365.915,"text":"跟委員報告我們是增加了599億多增加59億113的勞動部的預算案對照114勞動部的預算案114年有比113增加59億多是不是"},{"start":17383.206,"end":17394.244,"text":"是對照那個法定預算就是113年度因為預算已經通過了嗎所以我們比較是114的預算案比較113的法定預算"},{"start":17396.092,"end":17404.397,"text":"沒有啦所以我才講說你113的預算案是多少嘛你現在跟我講是通過的嘛對不對你這樣就太拚了2794億2794億那你114是2900多億"},{"start":17414.076,"end":17441.619,"text":"一一四我們是 sorry一一四預算案我們是兩千九百二十八億對啊二九二八一一四嘛對預算案是二九二八嘛那一一三呢沒有數字嗎一一三是兩千八百二千八百六十二千八百六十億左右"},{"start":17442.996,"end":17458.594,"text":"這上會通過的嘛對不對?還是通過的?通過啦不是啦不是啦113議員選要不選就叫做議選案嘛對不對?我現在覺得因為我們一八十四年都還不選議選案嘛你一八十三年議選案是多少?兩千八百多嘛是不是?是"},{"start":17460.88,"end":17477.253,"text":"2860億啦委員抱歉因為我這邊只有法定預算113的數據就這通過的嘛你現在跟我講通過的嘛對不對113的部分是這樣子113通過是28602860對嘛那你怎麼可以好意思跟我講說119一定大過於多過於118欸113114還沒有114怎麼大過於113114就還沒有審的"},{"start":17486.36,"end":17487.501,"text":"還沒有審查,你怎麼知道會增加599億?"},{"start":17515.564,"end":17539.032,"text":"你的預編是對照113的預算嗎?是不是這樣?對不對?我一直強調我原本就是要問是113的預算案嘛就還沒有審查的嘛那我是要看新部長來是不是有對照以前的這個那個年代是不是有增加更好更加更多預算基本上是沒有嘛甚至於你還可能會比113更少不一定因為還沒有審查嘛因為有可能被刪了對啊對啊"},{"start":17540.472,"end":17546.198,"text":"你希望可以再多增加的不一樣的但是還是要火力預計的預算以前沒有編你現在來編是增加大約是多少"},{"start":17563.206,"end":17591.877,"text":"我們大概比較有那個是運營流停啦今天加急補助經費38億叫去年增加9700萬這個不是新興的啦這是增加嘛這是原有的預算去增加的嘛我是說新興的項目都沒有啦都沒有我上任以後我沒有自己去新興任何項目預算啦好反正就是沒有就對了啦沒有就比較不用擔心啦如果有你就會有自然生嘛因為現在預算還卡住嘛"},{"start":17592.657,"end":17614.575,"text":"我的意思是這樣好了謝謝委員謝謝好我們現在回過頭來看這一個事情我們來追啦部長這個報導你看一下勞動部補助違法慣患勞團欲追回款項這個很清楚齁審計部的報告勞化署就案基金在去年公告15項計畫那補助共有11205家補助88968件"},{"start":17619.079,"end":17628.205,"text":"然後共計劃出16.3億那在勞化署這15項的這個計劃裡面除了充電再出發訓練計劃外及與計劃均規範事業單位違反勞動法令這個情節重大者將不予補助那這一計劃中勞動部或勞化署對於違反勞動法令情節重大者的這個定義"},{"start":17645.996,"end":17671.884,"text":"沒有明確啦沒有明確的說明清楚但我想一般的普羅大眾都應該非常知道齁如果有臨序違反勞動法令的事業單位那基本上這個補助資格就應該要嚴審啦他會被挑戰嘛齁即便都是小錯啦但是一錯再錯一換再換這個在新法上叫累犯嘛那累犯的時候有時候是要加重期刑但我們勞動部卻加重補助"},{"start":17675.194,"end":17687.51,"text":"是在鼓勵用人民的納稅金鼓勵他們違反勞動法令所以他們怎麼犯錯沒有得到問題甚至於還加碼"},{"start":17689.875,"end":17702.128,"text":"我要跟你們對照明細喔如果有這樣的事情部長你要怎麼處理這是第一件事情那第二件事情在審計部的資料就按基金補助的事業單位中有112家已經領了將近4千萬但112家卻是從109年到111年連續3年都有違反勞動法令的紀錄"},{"start":17712.486,"end":17720.007,"text":"好再來同年在111年齁一年內違反勞動法令三次的以上事業單位就有200家就有200家那其中5家啦齁達10次以上他們仍然還可以領到將近4898將近5000萬這些累換的事業單位將近8成在112年還在持續的違反勞動法令"},{"start":17742.768,"end":17771.115,"text":"部長應該很清楚嘛所以我剛剛才會講那句話說我們是拿人民大稅錢在鼓勵他們就持續做這些違反勞動法令的事情這跟我獨立現在檢討這件事要檢討這些事情是這樣嘛齁部長勞動部列出這些計畫這15項其中很多是針對中高齡再就業計畫這個我們都非常支持的啊對不對齁然後因為我們要邁入到超高齡嘛這總統一直在講嘛勞動部鼓勵壯士在再度投入職場"},{"start":17772.535,"end":17786.681,"text":"那我想在這場上的這個環境我們要嚴格把關不是因為在這山有這種違反勞動法規的事業單位他們這樣叫做壯世代嗎?他們適合壯世代嗎?然後報導中老化署這樣回覆喔"},{"start":17788.265,"end":17804.539,"text":"勞動法令多,處罰類型不一,各分署審查時,會注意違反勞動法令情況至於是否要定一定期限內違反次數或金額高於多少以上就不予補助,容待後續討論這樣覺得對嗎?"},{"start":17813.195,"end":17829.084,"text":"我們來檢討一個月內好不好對啦不然就像我講的嘛對不對我們就變相在鼓勵啊然後再來我不需要邀請部長啦違反的情節規定啦以及鼓勵的改善措施啦通通一個月內啦請部長馬上裁示吧"},{"start":17829.764,"end":17831.026,"text":"部長可以看這近5年來的重大職災死亡"},{"start":17845.662,"end":17865.349,"text":"108到112平均差不多300人走位那營建數各位部長也可以再看一下108就168109145101371115612151差不多照著重大持災營建業已經就占了一半了部長再往下看"},{"start":17867.229,"end":17887.017,"text":"然後其中墜落滾落的占了47%那其他的大致上就是5677712其他12倒塌崩塌也占了9結果墜落滾落倒塌崩塌就占了半數以上了啦占了半數以上然後再往下一張"},{"start":17888.337,"end":17905.1,"text":"就108年到112年最弱掉落的就是佔了將近佔比差不多50%了就48 49嘛所以從沒50%就一半了如果剛剛那個另外的那個加起來已經超過一半了這個這個這個如果部長"},{"start":17906.221,"end":17927.116,"text":"你可以有自愧的然後有魄力的去處理我們把這樣的一個會發生的因素把它降下來我們或許明年我們就可以很大聲講說勞工職災重大死亡我們可以把它壓到200人以下"},{"start":17929.591,"end":17944.405,"text":"就這個部分 我們積極的看怎麼樣去預防 怎麼去處理真的是有機會的啊 你看他可以站一半嘛 對不對 300個他就站一半 什麼藥 人間藥 人間藥 什麼錢 什麼錢 土地希望就放下去嘛 寫下去嘛 把這個放下去寫下去 我們讓這麼多勞工 因為這樣在他的職場裡面喪失生命"},{"start":17957.168,"end":17981.983,"text":"沒有道理啊!沒有道理嘛!對不對?當然!這屆民間業還算好的嘛對不對?怎麼沒辦法來做在整個職場上的一個更積極的一個管理讓這樣的憾事不要發生我相信這些營建業他也不希望發生這種事情嘛但是他就是讓這樣的事情持續發生然後讓這樣的比例就是這麼高"},{"start":17985.325,"end":18003.708,"text":"那就很奇怪了啊我還要另外再講一句話那我們政府何嘗不是一樣怎麼讓這個數據維持這5年就是平均墜落掉落就是在50%我們政府怎麼讓營建業在死亡人數300人他們的占比就是占了一半以上"},{"start":18005.274,"end":18030.707,"text":"我讓署長答問您一下好嗎我們就是發現這個問題所以我們今年為什麼說要墜落打擊那墜落打擊我們希望在執行過程中事業單位都要負起它管理的責任那因為管理責任我們看來目前是有點落差所以我們也希望要修治安法把這個管理責任更落實現場的隨時的監察視察巡查把墜落風險控制完降落就會降低了"},{"start":18031.747,"end":18058.539,"text":"委員這是全產業的我們營商業的最弱死亡比例是高達六成我們是非常痛心這個事情所以我們今年最後打幾年雖然剛才委員隨便詢說是沒有辦法降到我們降百分之三十的標準但是我們會持續努力包括法規的制度跟營建署的合作就是國土署的合作如何把這個更有效做營建管理我想這是我們的關鍵了謝謝委員今天是給我們的那個督促因為剛剛我有聽到委員跟你吹詢嘛"},{"start":18059.079,"end":18079.349,"text":"但是我覺得你那個墜落打擊就是破功了嘛 對不對坦白講就這樣嘛但是部長你不能破功嘛啊我剛才跟你講說你看營建類你跟我講到六成喔 對不對啊我相信營建類也不希望會發生這種事情嘛對啊啊不會發生這種事情啊為什麼持續讓它發生嘛然後比例又這麼高嘛"},{"start":18080.269,"end":18093.72,"text":"從人性的角度我們知道它不相發生它就直接又發生所以政府怎麼可以讓它也一樣跟這些業者一樣的處理方式那都不對啊 對不對所以我是覺得這邊阿基來坦白講我不覺得很大的困難耶"},{"start":18099.633,"end":18101.315,"text":"但是如果你連續5年都當這樣的數據維持這樣那是真的這是很嚴重的問題了"},{"start":18112.345,"end":18112.365,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":18130.483,"end":18153.115,"text":"老建這這營建工地的這樣子檢查我想我們還有要努力的空間對我想從什麼加嚴相關標準還是提高法管的額度還是強化承攬管理責任什麼新增這個暈頭管理的華澤大大大這個大家都會講了但是到底到底你們去執行落實的情況是怎麼樣不然怎麼還有這麼多的生命因為這樣不見了"},{"start":18155.436,"end":18155.997,"text":"我們預備校會期送進立院"},{"start":18168.587,"end":18189.61,"text":"我還是請部長可以趕一下啦齁然後這個要我覺得這一塊如果趕快可以補起來我們就有效控制在就壓低到200以下只要這一塊處理好我們來加快速度然後對於現在現金要去防範如何改善勞工在職場上墜落了掉落的"},{"start":18190.331,"end":18213.767,"text":"是不是有一個報告可以給我們做參考好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員發言那今天的會議詢答全部結束委員麥玉珍、邱洛華所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆"},{"start":18216.949,"end":18223.485,"text":"委員令要求期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午9點繼續開會謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:30:32 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：含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事゚列席業務報告：並備質詢同日事項審查《證券交易稅條例5案》依行政院函請審議《證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案》二、本院委員羅賓彩等20人擬據《證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案案》三、本院委員賴士寶等25人擬據"},{"start":1921.48,"end":1947.806,"text":"正確交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案四、本院委員吳立豪等十幾人擬據正確交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案五、本院委員邱志偉等十幾人擬據正確交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案宣讀完畢好,謝謝那我就介紹就是今天在場的官員齁我首先介紹我們的財政部部長莊部長"},{"start":1952.079,"end":1959.761,"text":"中和規劃師李師長國際財政師丁師長推動促餐師張師長人事處文章處長、會計處李處長統計處蔡處長、政風處許處長"},{"start":1980.47,"end":2008.077,"text":"還有法制處姚處長、秘書處楊處長國庫署陳署長、戶稅署宋署長官務署彭署長、還有國有財產署曾署長財稅中心我們的資訊中心我們的張主任財政人員訓練所我們的許所長"},{"start":2013.392,"end":2027.215,"text":"臺北國稅局吳局長高雄國稅局翁局長北區國稅局李局長中區國稅局樓局長南區國稅局李局長"},{"start":2034.304,"end":2053.056,"text":"我可能要花一點時間因為我們的八大行庫就是更動了比較多的人員所以首先我先來介紹台灣金控董事長林董事長還有我們的施總經理台灣銀行吳總經理台灣人壽張董事長"},{"start":2062.132,"end":2074.283,"text":"謝謝我們的劉啟聖總經理彈銀綜合證券喜慈美董事長還有我們的代理總經理林文勤代理總經理"},{"start":2087.463,"end":2114.963,"text":"還有我們台銀綜合保險經紀人總經理何總經理也代理董事長我們的土銀董事長何董事長還有我們的張智堅總經理那兆豐金控我們的董董董事長董瑞兵董事長還有總經理我們的蕭義美總經理"},{"start":2119.315,"end":2146.689,"text":"還有我們兆豐銀行就是黃永珍黃總經理第一金控我們的邱業勤董事長那邱董事長也兼第一銀行董事長總經理我們的方銀基總經理那第一商業銀行總經理李嘉祥"},{"start":2151.024,"end":2159.61,"text":"華蘭金控陳董事長陳董事長兼華蘭銀行董事長總經理李耀清總經理華蘭銀行黃俊志總經理合作金庫董事長林衍茂董事長"},{"start":2178.306,"end":2203.926,"text":"林董事長也兼我們合庫銀行的董事長總經理我們的蘇總經理蘇佐正總經理合庫銀行我們的王淑芳總經理彰化銀行我們的胡光華董事長還有我們的周總經理"},{"start":2208.198,"end":2229.652,"text":"臺灣中小企業銀行劉佩珍董事長李國忠總經理介紹中國輸入銀行理事主席、代理事主席謝富華總經理臺灣菸酒公司湯祺安董事長"},{"start":2241.586,"end":2267.773,"text":"總經理賴範宗財政部印刷廠王國隆廠長官罵網路股份有限公司張璐生董事長高國豐總經理中央債保險股份有限公司李一芬董事"},{"start":2272.123,"end":2297.218,"text":"介紹臺灣今年資產管理有限公司我們的郭俊文總經理 郭文靜因為董事長失禁及請假還有我們的臺灣金融資產股份有限公司陳美如董事長接著我們介紹臺灣金融大樓股份有限公司董事長賈永傑賈董事長"},{"start":2302.114,"end":2323.021,"text":"臺灣金融聯合都市更新股份有限公司林旺根董事長臺灣金融督導管理委員會文副主委陳彥良副主委銀行局副局長林志吉"},{"start":2327.565,"end":2341.898,"text":"證券期貨局高金平副局長保險局副局長蔡副局長檢察局賴新國副局長臺灣證券交易所李愛玲總經理"},{"start":2352.461,"end":2375.777,"text":"因為今天董事長林修銘請假是由李愛玲總經理代表出席接著我們再介紹我們的櫃買中心董事長簡立中董事長還有我們的陳立青總經理華務部參事林峰文"},{"start":2379.961,"end":2391.571,"text":"我先介紹現場的委員我首先介紹第一到現場的是吳秉瑞委員還有林德虎委員"},{"start":2397.301,"end":2415.675,"text":"本席來報告今日議程安排,那就是我們一、邀請莊部長翠雲進行業務報告二、審查行政院函請審議的《證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案》"},{"start":2417.176,"end":2438.527,"text":"還有委員羅明財等20人一具《證券交易稅法條例第二條之二條文修正草案》委員賴世寶等25人、委員吳立法等19人分別一具《明據《證券交易稅法條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案》"},{"start":2439.647,"end":2450.113,"text":"委員、邱志偉等19人一句就是《證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案》那我們就請先"},{"start":2455.069,"end":2467.112,"text":"我們就先請提案的委員說明在現場提案委員沒有到現場我們是不是請莊部長進行業務報告說明還有回應委員的提案那種莊部長請 謝謝"},{"start":2481.377,"end":2502.333,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會召開第11屆第二期的全體委員會議本人應邀率本部主管同仁列席提出業務報告以下僅就中央政府總預算收入的編列還有執行情形、近半年的重要施政績效以及未來施政的方向與重點提出報告"},{"start":2503.214,"end":2512.757,"text":"首先有關中央政府總預算113年度的執行情形我們稅入截至9月底實收數是2兆4518億元達成預算的90%其中稅客收入實收數是達到2兆1415億元達成預算數的92.5%營業營餘及事業收入"},{"start":2524.962,"end":2528.445,"text":"十周數達到1821億元達成率是63.5%至於規費、罰賠款以及財產和其他收入十周數有1283億元達成率是103%"},{"start":2540.017,"end":2545.219,"text":"在融資性的財源部分債務舉借的預算數因為稅務執行優於預期所以全數並沒有舉借而債務還本的預算數1150億元已經全數執行完成並且補足了債務還本預算數未達稅客收入5%的差額8億元合計已經還本1158億元"},{"start":2562.845,"end":2569.069,"text":"對於有關中央政府總預算114年度的編列情形在稅入部分我們編列了3兆1534億元稅出編列了3兆1325億元稅入稅出的盈餘是209億元支應債務還本1400"},{"start":2578.556,"end":2593.342,"text":"一十五億元上區融資調度是一千兩百零六億元規劃一用以前年度的稅計剩餘五百億元以及舉債七百零六億元來支應總預算案舉債佔稅出比例是百分之二點三"},{"start":2594.002,"end":2596.263,"text":"並記前瞻計劃等特別預算的舉債數1607億元合計舉債是2313億元所以預估114年底中華政府一年以上公共債務未償餘額是6兆8098億元"},{"start":2610.465,"end":2615.771,"text":"佔前三年度明目GDP的平均數是28.6%佔交比113年底的預算數會減少1.1個百分點那麼符合公債法中債務存量40.6%的上限規定但以實際數來看"},{"start":2627.602,"end":2656.071,"text":"截至9月底中央政府一年以上的公共債務未償餘額是5兆8780億元占前三年度明目GDP的平均數是26%那麼接下來報告本部近半年的重要施政績效曾盟會委員會的協助以及指教在上個會期順利完成所得稅法營業稅法以及海關進口稅責等法案的修正並且優化了新清安貸款的管理措施配合國家重要政策提供所需的用地"},{"start":2656.511,"end":2677.964,"text":"以及積極引進民間資源、投資、公共建設及推動多項的變民措施那麼113年目的及會議國際姓名機構以我國穩健財政的管理以及具備堅實的財政韌性持續維持我國主權信用平等的好成績顯見政府落實財政健全的努力相關資料請參閱我們的書面報告第三頁到第十六頁"},{"start":2681.906,"end":2689.888,"text":"那麼最後報告未來施政的方向以及重點首先在國庫業務的部分我們會秉持財政穩健的原則入力達成預算目標嚴格管控債務的比例課尊財政紀律那在地方財政我們會透過考核輔導及教育研習方面協助地方政府提升財務效能並按月監管"},{"start":2704.433,"end":2723.546,"text":"財務情形敦促地方政府改善財務的狀況在達成永續金融發展目標方面我們會持續督導公股金融事業推動ESG倡議平台的執行方案包括把投融資及商品審查的流程納入ESG的因子以及上市公股金融事業訂定內部碳定價等"},{"start":2725.487,"end":2750.967,"text":"善盡企業的社會責任在經濟統籌稅款分配機制方面我們持續就分配指標會商相關部會及地方政府的意見逐步縮小旗艦擴大共識在負稅業務部分我們在優化稅制方面會因應全球企業最低稅負制來調整我國的所得稅制並且兼顧地方政府發展的需要維持地方財政自主修正一律稅法為落實納稅者權利保護法的意旨我們會修正"},{"start":2754.009,"end":2767.129,"text":"《菸酒稅法》、《使用牌照稅法》以及《土地稅法》相關查法裁罰倍數的規定在《配合政策研修法規》部分為了促進證券市場持續發展以及降低它的不確定性修正證交稅條例"},{"start":2769.256,"end":2778.703,"text":"為建構身心障礙者、行動不便者、無障礙友善的乘車環境我們會修正貨物稅條例在精進檢證便民措施方面我們會持續地簡化報稅流程把手機報稅由五個步驟簡化為三個步驟並且從今年11月起我們會新增房屋稅、地價稅、使用牌照稅補徵案件的線上查繳稅服務我們會導入AI技術運用在稅務的智慧查審"},{"start":2796.115,"end":2817.912,"text":"以及資安防護等等面向來達成精準選案及提供民眾新體驗等目標來建構一個高效能的稅務智慧服務促進財稅合作以及深化國際的參與推動與印太地區及經貿投資密切國家洽簽租稅以及財政合作的協定擴展我國執行稅務用途資訊交換網絡"},{"start":2819.273,"end":2837.388,"text":"以及透過參與國際組織來推動實質的財政外交那麼在關務的部分我們會推動海關數位轉型以數位海關再造計畫來規劃新一代的通關系統服務架構提升通關效率同時運用AI系統提升我們的效能優化A"},{"start":2838.649,"end":2857.825,"text":"X光的判讀氣勢還有事後集合選案的系統強化我們的辨識能力還有增進事後集合的效能持續精進科技的查緝設備執行海關巡渠艇的太舊喚星第二期及各項儀檢站的固定式貨櫃檢查儀的建置計畫並且我們會配合桃園機場第三航廈的新建進度建置相關的儀檢設備強化邊境查緝的效能"},{"start":2866.952,"end":2886.43,"text":"深化國際官務的合作交流推動和重要貿易夥伴國家我們洽簽官務付諸的協定加強和各國的海關合作建構一個便捷安全的通關環境在國產業務部分積極地推動國有非公用不動產接管、管理、改良利用等"},{"start":2886.69,"end":2900.74,"text":"各項業務以及多元方式的活化並且配合國家的政策與產業的發展需求來提供國有土地那麼在促餐業務部分依照均衡台灣的政策目標促請中央各部會積極以促餐的方式"},{"start":2903.261,"end":2926.802,"text":"來引進民間的資金投資國內的公共建設並且持續優化促餐的推動環境積極協助排除履約的困難提升促餐推動的量能以上財政工作的重點報告承蒙貴委員會的協助以及督導使本部各項業務能夠順利推展並有所成效未來仍將以國家永續發展"},{"start":2927.523,"end":2949.688,"text":"及增進人民福祉為目標克尊財政紀律以積極的行動、創新的思維、努力推動各項工作敬請各位委員繼續支持與指教使財政工作更增完善謝謝大家接下來是不是報告一下有關證交稅條例的這個部分那麼今日貴委員會審查行政院函請審議的證交稅"},{"start":2952.897,"end":2959,"text":"以及大院委員擬據的證交稅條例的相關條文修正草案等7案本部請作簡要的說明進行指教參據經管會的意見"},{"start":2968.623,"end":2996.245,"text":"現股當日沖銷交易的證券交易稅稅率由千分之三調降為千分之1.5就是我們一般所稱的當沖降稅措施從106年的4月實施以來成效符合預期的目標可降低投資人的交易成本維持證券市場的流動性並且帶動整體資本市場的活絡考量當沖降稅的措施會在今年12月底屆期而且證券市場"},{"start":2996.886,"end":3016.073,"text":"容易受國際政治還有經濟情勢變動的影響為了維持證券市場交易動能促進市場穩定發展以及降低不確定性和金管會我們達成共識延長當中降稅措施3年到116年12月31日那麼以事實檢討實施的效果穩動調整另外證交稅的繳款書的送達我們要回歸行政程序法規定來辦理"},{"start":3025.916,"end":3050.714,"text":"減少徵納雙方的爭議各委員提案的修正意旨與行政院的版本相同其中羅委員明財等20人及賴委員世保等25人的提案是延長當沖降稅措施5年的部分考量台股市場流動性以大幅改善但是國際地緣政治的風險升溫以及國際經濟比如像美國經濟的情勢未明等等"},{"start":3051.294,"end":3073.231,"text":"那麼延長當沖降稅措施三年比較能夠及時因應資本市場的變化以適時檢討實施的效果滾動調整並且和前兩次的延長期間相當前兩次的期間就是三年、八個月以及三年那麼以上報告以及說明敬請各位委員指教建請會議支持行政院版本謝謝"},{"start":3074.721,"end":3075.822,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3097.31,"end":3115.499,"text":"是主席、各位委員、各位先生、女士今天大院11屆第二次會期求請審查《證券交易稅條例第二條之二》的修正草案提出報告自感榮幸敬請各位委員指教首先我們必須要知道"},{"start":3116.8,"end":3139.401,"text":"當沖降稅這個地方是中性工具所以其實我們要看的是實證上面數據怎麼的一個變化第一個在成交量上面的變化當沖降稅是106年4月28號實施迄今其實呢它已經成長了199%將近於兩倍所以目前的日成交均額是2952億"},{"start":3141.443,"end":3150.988,"text":"在指數的變化也是可以看到從當時106年4月28號到現在我們的集中交易市場跟櫃買交易所跟櫃買這邊它的指數也分別上漲125%跟102%"},{"start":3157.731,"end":3179.819,"text":"而當初的投資人違約的一個情形也就是說我們時常會擔心這是不是在當初快速的上下當中會有違約的一個情形我們來看呢因為台股已經建立了一個所謂的市場風險控管期事業相對的措施而且其實現在的投資人已經能理解我們股市上面的一個風險所以是說108年到100年"},{"start":3183.541,"end":3198.226,"text":"民國一百二十二年,當沖違約的人數都低於萬分之一。當然,只有民國一百二十二年自然人當沖交易違約的人數比例略高於非當沖者。"},{"start":3199.966,"end":3219.335,"text":"所以是說在各年當沖違約比率其實都是非當沖的低而到現在為止今年一到八月的時候當沖違約人數已經降到萬分之零點七三也低於目前非當沖違約人數佔萬分之一點四三為低"},{"start":3222.876,"end":3248.618,"text":"而國際上來看的話不管是美國、日本、新加坡都沒有交易稅而香港是我們所謂的千分之一而韓國目前在逐步下調到千分之1.5而法國交易稅是千分之三英國是千分之五而且對造勢者均免苛徵所以是說我們在各國來看的話其實相對的"},{"start":3249.198,"end":3262.754,"text":"我們並沒有是特別的一個所謂的高而當最後我們來看到對於一個所謂的資本市場的一個發展的影響剛剛有講過其實它就是一個工具而在這個所謂的當沖呢其實它會促進證券市場的一個活絡"},{"start":3268.2,"end":3289.451,"text":"所以是說其實當然也有人在中間賺取價差但相對是小的微小價差而會促進一個所謂的流動量的一個提供而且它會讓我們快速的一個發現價格所以對於縮小證券買賣價差促進整體資本市場活絡是有幫助的"},{"start":3290.251,"end":3318.428,"text":"再者對於資本市場的一個發展跟政府的證交稅的收入其實在這兩方面也都是往上所以是說在坐標的我們看到不管是市場不管是稅收是雙頭並進而這個地方在量能好的時候其實掛牌公司它有享受到一個比較高的所謂本益比跟股價淨值的上升而且它的投資成本也會下降"},{"start":3319.248,"end":3337.254,"text":"提升它的競爭力也會吸引優良的企業進駐持續注入進駐臺灣而且會帶動一個證券產業的一個發展所以政府在這個地方也可以增加我們的稅收而我們目前為止為什麼是說三年其實"},{"start":3338.694,"end":3363.868,"text":"委員們各個的提案都是贊成但是會有一些所謂的三年五年這時間上的一個不一樣其實也是因應目前國際上面仍然有許多不確定的因素不管是美國降稅中美科技戰或者是景氣循環低迷的時候都需要我們所謂的這個當沖災的地方來做一些避免陷入我們市場陷入一個流動性風險"},{"start":3365.734,"end":3384.017,"text":"而在景氣復甦的時候也可以有一些些的價差讓投資人享受到一些利益而策略性的交易需求也可以維持市場的動能最後正如我剛剛提到各版本的分析"},{"start":3384.798,"end":3402.663,"text":"整體而言都是贊成我們在這個羅委員明才等20人賴委員世保等25人吳委員麗華等19人跟賴委員惠元等37人林委員楚英等19人所提的一個修法草案的這些五案當中呢"},{"start":3405.644,"end":3431.594,"text":"都是贊成延長只是如我所言其實延長的時間長短的版本呢跟我們這個行政院含送大院的版本不同那也如同剛剛部長所說我們呢其實三年在這個地方的因應國際的一個所謂的情勢我們維持激動彈性的一個調整在結論上面我們可以看到這不管是市場動能會稅收是雙頭上前"},{"start":3433.495,"end":3454.349,"text":"前進而延長條件當中這個證交稅有助市場流通性縮小一個買賣價差發現價格深化資本市場的一個效能對於我國經濟的成長也是有怎樣的實質的一個幫助儘管為呢在這個地方呢也"},{"start":3455.69,"end":3478.215,"text":"請各位委員能支持行政院函請審議同條文的修正草案我們也會協同周邊單位我們的證交所歸買中心持續積極推動相關活絡股市的一個措施以提升資本市場的競爭力以上報告也祝各位委員和家喜樂平安身體健康謝謝"},{"start":3480.929,"end":3497.407,"text":"好 謝謝接著我們再補充介紹賴思寶委員在現場那請問一下賴思寶委員你要做那個提案說明嗎沒有齁好那針對的本日議程現在開始詢答先做以下的先告"},{"start":3498.615,"end":3524.967,"text":"一、每位出席的委員花言的時間本委員會是8分鐘必要的時候可以延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘今天上午10點我們就截止花言的登記本次會議的委員若有相關的修正動議請敬送主席台現在一登記的順序我們請登記第一順位的林德虎委員質詢"},{"start":3537.877,"end":3555.014,"text":"謝謝主席、莊部長還有與會各列席官員各銀行的董事長、總經理還有金管會副局長以及所有列席金管會的官員是不是請莊部長莊部長"},{"start":3562.612,"end":3590.666,"text":"委員長你好對於台美租稅協定的推動時程因為本席曾經質詢過這一屆國會改選前有沒有機會來通過你說就算是美國下屆新國會財政部也是會努力的來推動請問部長財政部一直努力在推動但是到目前為止還是沒有辦法確定它的進度"},{"start":3591.747,"end":3597.03,"text":"就你所知,原因真的是美國國會的兩黨的國會議員對於同樣包括在內的美國國內稅法有不同意見嗎?"},{"start":3610.094,"end":3626.895,"text":"各位委員報告有關台美ADTA這個案子包括快速減免法案跟授權法案在這個眾院的時候一月就已經通過了那現在目前在參院那又尤其是因為它是包國法案那包國法案裡面因為對於其他的另外一個法務"},{"start":3629.616,"end":3655.713,"text":"參議院有意見以至於這個案子目前停滯在參議院但是就我所知美方的行政部門以及國會跨黨派的議員依然是非常支持臺美洽簽ADTA這個案子不管是本部跟對方的美方的財政部也好或者是外交部以及我們的駐美代表以及還有AIT這邊都非常的密切的關注這個案子的推動情形"},{"start":3657.194,"end":3666.478,"text":"你認為有沒有可能藉由包裹立法手段取得貿易談判的籌碼有關貿易談判這個部分事實上並不是在這個包裹法案裡面那有關貿易談判因為也不是屬於我們財政部在我方也不是財政部的執掌在對方也不是美方的財政部執掌而在我們這邊是由經貿談判公司在主政所以我們這個部分事實上是我們在積極推動有關"},{"start":3684.306,"end":3705.174,"text":"我們會積極的跟美方這邊做相關的密切關注的一些聯繫當然我們也知道美國在11月就有大選那這個部分恐怕等大選後才會有進一步的進展因為幾個禮拜前AIT處長古立炎來拜會財政部那請問你和古立炎處長對台美避免雙重課稅協定這個"},{"start":3710.046,"end":3737.261,"text":"的現況到底有沒有進一步討論或看法?跟委員報告鼓勵原處長因為從7月就任到AIT處長以後他就禮貌性的拜會我國的相關的部會所以在上個月來到財政部那都是禮貌性的拜會有沒有談到這一點是禮貌性沒有談是不是?ADTA這個事情當然每方關注我方也關注彼此都會談到那當然就是就如同我剛剛所報告目前在參議院"},{"start":3739.322,"end":3754.053,"text":"那要恐怕等到美國大選以後看看有沒有再進一步的機會推動那因為股處長其實也是第三次到台灣就任我們財政部的一些高階的主管們其實跟他都熟識所以也有一些敘舊的大家都聊得蠻開心的"},{"start":3755.074,"end":3781.659,"text":"近來中國動作博大連APEC特使人選都傳出中國有意見那基於美國、中國以及台灣的雙方關係的變化那整個目前台美租稅協定的進度你認為有沒有中國介入干預變數的存在有沒有我沒有這樣方面的訊息並沒有聽到這樣的訊息沒有齁部長"},{"start":3782.879,"end":3803.307,"text":"在全球貿易這個整個貿易全球化的時代台灣的產業想要做全世界的生意除了強化自身產品的品質特色和安全外那再加入區域經濟組織和簽署自由貿易協定絕對是有其必要但是吼這些年吶"},{"start":3804.167,"end":3817.697,"text":"台灣與其他國家洽簽的自由貿易協定的進度可以說非常的緩慢幾乎沒有進展宣傳多年的這個CPTPP就是跨太平洋這個"},{"start":3820.086,"end":3840.365,"text":"合同全面進步協定到現在為止也沒有具體的進展就是連宣稱關係友好的美日和澳簽訂的FTA也看不到它的結果部長對於產業轉型政府或許持續的推動"},{"start":3841.246,"end":3863.518,"text":"但是你認為光是數位轉型品牌的建立就能夠協助這些弱勢產業找到真正的春天嗎?我想我們要強化我們自己的產業不管是轉型也好或是淨零也好、淨零排碳也好都是國際競爭上面需要做到的那至於參與所謂的國際的所謂TPP等等"},{"start":3866.9,"end":3884.085,"text":"那行政院的經貿辦公室都會在後面...但是都沒有進展啊!這個部分應該他們會更清楚有啦!很高調啦!但是都沒有進展啦!換句話說如果自由貿易協定還是沒有辦法簽訂你認為整個國內產業在供應鏈重組的這個短鏈革命中又應該要怎麼樣去面對它的挑戰呢?"},{"start":3893.387,"end":3918.614,"text":"我們要強化我們自己的產業體制然後在國際上取得一個關鍵的地位我們以我們的出口來說我們的今年的出口其實會創一年的次高我們是有信心尤其我們在AI以及人工智慧高效能運算這方面具有產能以及製程的優勢那這個部分我們在國際上具有關鍵地位的時候別人自然就需要靠我們的一個供應那個部長"},{"start":3921.755,"end":3936.286,"text":"其實齁,台積電就看出來了啦。他們人家要我們去設,我們就設。到現在為止怎麼樣?幾乎啦。講實在話,我們一取一求,但是我們要跟人家洽簽,人家就慢慢來吧。"},{"start":3937.507,"end":3961.107,"text":"我認為這方面政府應該要去想辦法突破部長媒體報導台股當沖降稅優惠今年年底屆期行政院版的修法延長優惠的措施到2027年底一股股市日均值能夠維持在4000億元到4500億元左右之間"},{"start":3962.648,"end":3975.553,"text":"那部長當中降稅的千文之三降到千文之一1.5最早是2017年4月28號實施經過兩度的延長請問目前修法延長是不是唯一的選項"},{"start":3978.231,"end":4002.423,"text":"這個部分我們跟金管會有過相關的討論當然資本市場或證券市場相關的一個流動性或增加它的活絡性它的措施有很多那這個部分當沖降稅是其中的一項我想應該不是唯一那我請問你部長能不能說明當沖降稅常態化和取消當沖降稅被行政院排除的理由"},{"start":4004.475,"end":4019.721,"text":"當中降稅常態化這個部分我們必須要說明依據納稅者權力保護法的規定租稅的優惠要明定實施的年限要達成它合理的政策目的為限不可以過度所以沒有所謂把它取消然後成為常態化的目的"},{"start":4021.501,"end":4048.421,"text":"至於要不要取消當中降稅這樣的一個措施我想金管會剛剛副主委已經有過相關的一個說明基本上我們認為維持證券市場的一個流動性而且代表整體資本市場的一個活絡照部長跟剛剛金管會的說法就是不能常態化卻能接受動態調整合理化修法來延長當中降稅他理由的依據到底是什麼"},{"start":4049.201,"end":4068.097,"text":"就是剛剛委員所說的就是一個動態的調整那這個期間上我們認為是三年適宜的那如果要是取消當中降稅中央政府稅收股市成交量能這個台股投資人外資以及國內財經等等層面有哪些會受到"},{"start":4069.137,"end":4087.957,"text":"最大的一個衝擊跟委員報告證券市場的交易量受到許多因素的影響不管是政治、經濟還有國際情勢、投資人的心理等等的因素那當沖降稅會造成交易量多大的一個變化可能單獨要把它分裂出來並不是一個容易而且具體客觀的一個數據部長是"},{"start":4089.218,"end":4107.31,"text":"因為本席認為說這個納保法第六條租稅優惠常態化的可行性被排除以導致政府修法延長當沖降稅每次要找不同的條件讓修法延長合理化那我請問部長你認為"},{"start":4110.331,"end":4128.883,"text":"這是修法的常態嗎?因為資本市場的變動因素很多當然在修法的時候他必須考量當時的一些情形來作為是不是要做持續延長的一個因素那因為以前的狀況跟現在狀況有不同的時候當然修法的理由就會有不同"},{"start":4129.423,"end":4157.766,"text":"部長當初當沖降稅是基於股市量能創新低那基於振興股市的考量結果第一次延長第二次的延長理由不但不同甚至於就像為了刺激台股量能當沖降稅宛如稀釋興奮劑也在所不惜那我請問部長難道不會造成整個政策這個降稅修法污名化嗎"},{"start":4159.282,"end":4181.941,"text":"我想我們會極力的說明為什麼會要這樣降稅那金管會剛剛副主委也說明的很清楚這樣的一個措施採取的一些理由那或者部長你認為未來還會有第四次延長第五次延長會不會這個部分沒有辦法做預期因為本席認為說因為三年的時間的變動其實是有因為本席認為說真的"},{"start":4183.522,"end":4192.783,"text":"要慎重考量修法延長時間的條件修法次數的政策必須要與"},{"start":4194.915,"end":4218.021,"text":"的重要性並且要合理化因為你一次又一次一次又一次幾乎都是用那種就是為了這個當沖降稅然後一直展延所以說這個部分我認為財政部跟金管會應該好好審慎的去做處理是的我們兩個部會其實都有做審密的一個討論是的好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4221.707,"end":4222.487,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部莊部長請部長"},{"start":4248.13,"end":4258.355,"text":"市長早今天媒體有報導說今年度到9月底為止的稅收狀況是不是你稍微做說明一下"},{"start":4259.171,"end":4270.762,"text":"是跟報告就是說今年到9月底的稅收做全國的稅收是達到兩兆9453億那達成全年的預算數到91%那在中央的部分的我們稅收是有兩兆1415億那也達成我們的預算數的92.5%那我們在評估這樣的一個"},{"start":4285.076,"end":4307.718,"text":"一般來說,增加的稅收主要是中所稅。中所稅基本上已經達成了我們的預算數。另外就是還有證交稅,它也達成了我們的預算數。這個部分是稅收的情況。另外在營業稅的部分事實上收取的也不錯,也比去年度同年的中央部分是增加243億。"},{"start":4309.159,"end":4324.186,"text":"可以看出來國內的需求的一個穩定的成長以及進口原物料的一個增加所以讓我們的營業稅也成長從9月是這樣子那你預估今年的稅率增收的最後能夠達到怎麼樣的規模"},{"start":4326.832,"end":4355.935,"text":"是,委員報告到9月底數據是這樣子那到今年我們之前就講我可以達成預算數沒有問題但是會超出預算數的金額我們大概目前可以講說超出預算數應該會達到一千億至於詳細的數據因為9月的部分因為有營所稅的佔小稅款到10月會入帳所以會更明確那目前來說是中央中央的部分一千億是比較保守的估計我們先做保守的估計"},{"start":4356.857,"end":4380.363,"text":"對阿,所以我去年跟你說的你們的那個稅入的那個估算喔還是真的還是比較保守,對不對?跟實際上比起來?跟委員報告,在稅入的估算的部分其實我們已經一直在改進,包含我們成立了估測的專案小組那對於各個稅務影響的稅收的一個因子我們都做過討論但是今年有一個情況就是我們的證交稅"},{"start":4381.463,"end":4388.306,"text":"正交稅的部分我們原來在預算數編列的時候今年的日均量是3500億但是到目前為止大概都有5000億一個日均量有達到5000億所以這個部分正交稅事實上是最難估測的一個數據所以正交稅到目前為止我們已經收到2207億那麼預算數是2087億所以已經超過預算數"},{"start":4404.787,"end":4433.217,"text":"好啦 我是做整體跟你講啦每次跟你們講你們估算的時候都有一堆理由把它估得比較保守那這個也難 我也沒有為難 責難你們的意思因為這樣公務員達到預期的這個目標董事都能夠超過百分之百嘛但是我是覺得那個差距最好不要能夠小比較好再來就是去年通過了今年度的舉借本來是要舉借多少"},{"start":4435.553,"end":4456.76,"text":"一千多億一千多少一千我看一下原來舉要編列的一千七百多億全部都沒有舉借嗎本來一千五百七十一億到目前為止並沒有舉借而且如果你預算今年度是超過預算數的話大概也不會舉借"},{"start":4458.971,"end":4471.701,"text":"對,對,然後我們債也先還了,都還了,所以是實質還貸所以你的那個報告的第三頁,小跨屋的二齁,這個我已經跟你講過非常多次了我跟財政部提醒過非常多次,你們那個總體的那個"},{"start":4474.161,"end":4497.051,"text":"公共債務未償餘額你老是要用預算數幾年相加然後等到決算算完之後但是決算會落後兩年嘛那兩年把這個預算數的估計數都加進來所以你看現在你的預估數如果照你的報告預估數是6兆8千多億"},{"start":4498.393,"end":4525.965,"text":"但是實據數才5兆8千多億差了將近一兆你知道嗎是的那這個因為預算的編列有預算編列的規則我知道那我的意思說你在寫報告的時候事實上沒有舉借而今年也不用舉借所以是已經還款的部分難道不能夠扣掉嗎你就要照那個預算說我前兩三年的舉借事實上都沒舉借啊結果還一直把它累積"},{"start":4527.558,"end":4544.956,"text":"所以你我跟你說現在如果媒體或是國人拿你這個報告說一估114年底中央政府的預算中央政府的舉借會長債務與委員會6兆8千多億所以我們國人每一個人事實上負債多少多少"},{"start":4546.141,"end":4568.672,"text":"人家也沒有錯啊是照你的報告來的啊但是那跟事實的差距會有很大的差距啊委員說得很是沒有錯那所以我們在報告第三頁裡面同時也提到就是說到9月底的實際稅稅照不是啦那人家也沒有義務人家沒有義務要把這講整篇吧所以我是說你們的寫法我已經提了很多年了"},{"start":4569.412,"end":4591.565,"text":"能不能寫得讓大家更能夠了解真正債務的狀況而不是用這樣子的方式我知道你這個金額是以前的未償預額加上這三年的舉借數問題是這三年都沒有舉借是預算編列事實上一毛都沒舉借結果你就把它加進來變成我們的預估數你這個估法太粗糙了"},{"start":4592.967,"end":4607.585,"text":"預算因為編列有一些相關的規則那我想我們未來在報告裡面能夠想得更清楚一點避免外界在引用上錯誤的引用莫名其妙說臺灣的這個中央債務會場域突然之間多了一兆出來"},{"start":4609.073,"end":4609.633,"text":"這是財政部的報告啊"},{"start":4623.796,"end":4624.917,"text":"現在中國政府用財政手段在刺激他們的股市"},{"start":4649.881,"end":4665.286,"text":"所以現在有一個說法叫做無毛硬抄大水漫灌所以中國的股市的控制幾乎就是在中國政府的手裡當然用這個金融財政的手段要去解決實體的經濟問題時間一久也是撐不住的啦"},{"start":4670.283,"end":4674.106,"text":"所以我要問我們公股銀行在中國的曝險這些年的狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":4701.724,"end":4717.332,"text":"包括連帶案有沒有重大預期授信案跟連帶案都沒有由於在這個這幾年來在中國大陸這個部分而我們的公股行庫在承作上其實已經一直在緊縮所以並沒有目前為止並沒有一個重大的一個預期違約案"},{"start":4722.135,"end":4735.146,"text":"香港與中國過去是不同的看法但是香港越來越成為中國內陸的一個城市我們對香港不同的做法各家公股銀行在香港都有一些分支機構"},{"start":4736.167,"end":4742.568,"text":"未來你要怎麼處理?這個部分我們也請我們公股行庫對香港地區也要調降這個他們的風險額度並且要監控這個曝險的部位這個部分都有請相關的公股行庫但是就以到目前為止我們台灣跟香港加上中國的這些金融往來還是相當的密切馬上要脫鉤是很難的所以你要逐步來可是"},{"start":4762.972,"end":4782.193,"text":"香港的地位在美國的國會在眾議院已經通過他要檢討他的那個香港的特殊地位所以他將來可能會把香港認為是一個中國的內陸城市甚至最嚴重的是要最後一步港幣不能夠直接兌換美元"},{"start":4783.534,"end":4804.551,"text":"這個法案現在已經眾議院通過了當然是沒有包括我剛剛講的港幣的部分在檢討它的地位將來參議院也在處理所以香港如果狀況最糟糕繼續因為人權的惡化因為繼續中國的這個高壓統治的這個痛感有可能它的特殊地位會被拿掉"},{"start":4805.932,"end":4827.198,"text":"如果美國把證券的特殊地位拿掉的時候我們台灣的這些公股、航庫要如何運營?是,謝謝委員這樣的一個提醒我想這個部分我們必要的時候可以全面暫停乘坐這樣的一個相關的業務我想這個部分我們會密切關注這樣的一個法案我的意思不是這樣啦因為事實上你要馬上全面的停止這個"},{"start":4829.7,"end":4849.01,"text":"應作是不可能的,而是你要有一個備案、覆案如果發生這樣的狀況的時候要怎麼處理那今天我想不會有答案我覺得你應該要跟公股、行庫之間好好的溝通說有沒有預測到將來有可能有這樣的風險那假如發生這樣的風險的時候準備要怎麼樣的因應"},{"start":4850.151,"end":4869.471,"text":"好,是,謝謝委員的指教要有以待之好不好,加油,努力,謝謝謝謝委員的指教,謝謝好,謝謝本席在這裡報告一下列席的官員在備刑的期間你們如果因為公務上的一個需要需要接受媒體的一個採訪"},{"start":4870.632,"end":4883.462,"text":"那盡量利用會前還是會後還是中間我們休息的時間因為今天我們列席的官員有很多是新生在這裡那個特別做以上的一個報告那接著請賴思寶委員備詢質詢"},{"start":4899.948,"end":4925.615,"text":"謝謝主席先請財政部的莊部長好請部長委員好部長好有關於這個財法法昨天佐隆泰院長在立法院院會大言不慚的說目前的制度就是最好的制度"},{"start":4926.96,"end":4955.625,"text":"他要回去看一看民進黨在野的時候多多有幾次的說修財報法現在他說最好當然最好啊錢在他手上錢在他手上我們要的其實不多我們要的只有說你能不能撥三千億你說你按照你財政部長一直在講說這個個性是很多很多"},{"start":4957.041,"end":4976.76,"text":"問題是不一樣在哪裡有沒有修法在哪裡就是假如按照我們的版本3000億下放給地方這個不要法律上他就有多3000億地方加起來多3000億自己去用不要看你的臉色"},{"start":4977.953,"end":4999.659,"text":"你現在裝在手上玩家看你的臉色不管你增加多少都是看你的臉色這到底的一個霸權的卓榮泰霸權的一個思路我就問你一件事情因為這個事情在這裡我已經罵很久了不願意再浪費太多時間我就問你你今天違反立法院的決議這是很嚴重的喔"},{"start":5000.683,"end":5019.464,"text":"我們去年底的我們三個會期結束之前通過一個決議這個會期開議之前你要把版本送進來到現在為止都沒有我就問你一個問題你先不要跟我講細節我不要聽細節我就問你不送的理由是不是卓榮泰叫你不要送"},{"start":5020.284,"end":5044.259,"text":"跟委員報告六月十九號財委會的一個決議我們非常的重視也很尊重那財政部在八月跟九月都召開兩次會議邀請地方政府來討論那在八月那次會議我們把相關的八十幾個指標已經跟他們調整到五十幾個決議那第二個部分我們也把縮小了這期間然後把供應縮小期間"},{"start":5046.158,"end":5063.423,"text":"你回答我你既然做不到你要不要來跟每一個委員報告一下為什麼做不到你連這個基本的尊重都沒有我們決議的通過那時候你也點頭你同意了我覺得委員可以回覆看一下那個當時的錄影我們有詳細我跟主計長都在場我們有詳細的說明要在這個會期開議前提倡辦法的版本我們有詳細說明我們書面報告也送了"},{"start":5073.386,"end":5098.163,"text":"財委會也都有送給各位委員你有沒有在派會每一個委員跟他說我跟我們的書面報告已經送了那如果各位委員認為我們需要逐一去報告我們也可以逐一去報告我們在報告裡面非常做了非常詳細的一個分析你做不到不要親力承諾就好了我想可以看一下我在那個會上沒有承諾我在這個地方也諮詢過你去年這個時候說APEC"},{"start":5101.83,"end":5122.06,"text":"剛才委員提到了APEC有關於你去請問你今年會不會去APEC下個月會的會的嘛請問你會不會見到美國的財長這個部分我們其實還在聯繫當中那另外就是對於這個APEC我們在去年也跟美國的財政部長也有提到我去年諮詢我去年諮詢你的時候"},{"start":5125.885,"end":5128.526,"text":"你承諾公開講今年的六月美國會通過了會失效了結果沒有啊美國眾議院一月就通過那送進參院因為是包裹法案他們對於其他的一個條文有爭議那所以又面臨美國大選我想他們國內的政治情勢這不是我們可以去介入的"},{"start":5149.778,"end":5158.784,"text":"所以你做不到就不要隨便承諾這個也做不到那個也做不到你先不要走我們請一下101的董事長、賈董事長請賈遠傑董事長"},{"start":5182.941,"end":5198.173,"text":"主席好,大委員您好好,你好請問加董事長啊這個有關於101的國慶的煙火外面的批評聲浪很大我借這個機會讓你說明一下公開場合說明一下煙火煙火有時候放得太短啦不夠精彩啦什麼之類的等等你要不要講一下"},{"start":5206.112,"end":5225.944,"text":"好,賴委員我跟您報告一下就是基本上我聽到的喜歡我們國慶煙火的人非常多那可能您可能看到很多在網路上面有少部分的可能像是其實網路上面的發言呢不見得每一個人都願意對自己的發言負責"},{"start":5227.365,"end":5254.487,"text":"有很多人可能是水軍、網軍可能有別有意圖我想這個部分其實我也有在臉書上面做了說明我的意思是其實我們是做很正向的事情也希望大家能夠支持你給自己國慶的煙火打幾分我給自己國慶的煙火打幾分我給我的團隊吧應該不是我自己我的團隊我大概可以打到95分"},{"start":5257.625,"end":5286.62,"text":"好,95分了你自己的主觀我不comment了我在問你那你在今年的跨年準備怎麼放煙火今年的跨年的煙火呢我也可以跟大家預告一下今年跨年煙火會非常精彩對,我已經看過了這個模擬的圖示整個3D的影片都看到了那我自己個人認為是非常精彩有所突破,謝謝"},{"start":5287.879,"end":5289.58,"text":"例如 例如 for example"},{"start":5315.4,"end":5316.521,"text":"好,我想這樣子好不好?"},{"start":5344.426,"end":5358.793,"text":"雖然你剛剛講說其他人有心人士啦或者血腥不管怎麼樣那代表社會不同的聲音我看到的是有不少的地方都說時間太短那能不能在跨年的時候時間長一點"},{"start":5360.609,"end":5361.109,"text":"請財政部的莊部長"},{"start":5386.728,"end":5408.415,"text":"要不要對他講話做個comment?你是他長官嗎?總部長!總部長!對他講話comment一下!他給你打95分的!謝謝委員對我們101的一個指教以及重視那我相信在跨年的煙火部分我們可以拭目以待,一定不會讓大家失望好,那個,董事長請回喔謝謝"},{"start":5414.858,"end":5435.031,"text":"我另外一個問題想請教部長你這個當沖啊今晚副主委可以上來啊當沖一言再言三言四言請問這是第幾言你告訴我第幾次從第三次言第四次啦前兩次是言啊第四次是106年第一次的時候啊來第幾次講一下"},{"start":5441.162,"end":5462.341,"text":"第一次是106年到107年是不是?那後來再延長那次是一年然後第一次延長是107年到110年第二次延長是11年到12年所以現在第幾次?應該在12年在延長是第三次啊這個啊我都覺得請問請問"},{"start":5464.795,"end":5492.049,"text":"第四次啦!經管副主委講得太對了啦!經管副主委!來!經管副主委!委員這是數學問題因為第一次是實施所以後來再延了三次三次啦!這一次第四次啦!這一次第四次啦!這一次第四次啦!你既然這樣子一直延代表有需要啦既然有需要了為什麼不乾脆就是直接修法就讓它降就好了當從"},{"start":5494.431,"end":5517.946,"text":"請問來戶主要不要講一下對你們的股市?是因為呢在這個部分我們常常講這個一個中性的工具在這個部分我們常常講這是化學反應不是物理反應所以呢我們還是呢在依照三年三年這樣子循環的評估其實比較有彈性避免僵化掉了這個工具就沒有效謝謝老師"},{"start":5520.372,"end":5521.954,"text":"這個...這個...這個不是這樣講啦!他講老師沒什麼錯啦!"},{"start":5532.503,"end":5557.19,"text":"我時間到了不過我再講一句啦我覺得部長你要認真思考啦請問你好不好這個當沖對不對啦好不好啦對你來講我想當沖對於他的一個資本市場的一個動能是有幫助的動能有幫助稅收有增加那個金管會做過研究裡面真的虧的人就大老闆大老闆有料那要緊對不對這個"},{"start":5561.611,"end":5562.452,"text":"請郭國文委員發言"},{"start":5588.689,"end":5610.85,"text":"主席,有請財政部莊部長跟101董事長、甲董事長。好,莊部長跟甲董事長。甲董,慢慢來。甲董事長。對對,是你,沒有錯。應該,這邊姓甲應該只有你一位。委員好。時間先不要計算,等甲董來。"},{"start":5619.187,"end":5634.534,"text":"對,第一次沒有,第二次有。剛剛沒有經理,現在有了。先就交給賈董,賈董你在臉書上說那個時間一般的網友其實沒有批評,但是期待不夠滿足,就時間有人認為太短。那你對外講的是說沒有贊助單位是不是?"},{"start":5635.944,"end":5664.243,"text":"對,沒有任何的贊助的期限因為國慶煙火是一個很重要的事情現場有很多公股銀行的董事長在這邊你希望哪一位贊助你可以點名一下本席可以協助你所有的人都可以贊助,謝謝然後我們明年就會有開放企業贊助所以請大家多多贊助我們這個部長你要不要先承諾一下2014年你在關照的不是嗎?兆豐金應該是最大的股份嘛,對不對?董董"},{"start":5665.484,"end":5665.825,"text":"主席"},{"start":5675.806,"end":5693.416,"text":"這麼多金主在這邊怎麼會沒有贊助者呢我協助你啦來本席的3303研究室來開個協調會好不好那賈董你請回來明年這個事情我來處理謝謝不客氣委員我可以跟你報告一下嗎其實我們在整個數字上看來我們10月10號當天我們101的進館人數呢是成長了59%"},{"start":5699.52,"end":5715.694,"text":"在觀景台的人數方面,國人來觀景台的部分是成長了兩倍所以整個信義計畫區是人潮洶湧的我沒有說不好,只是因為太好,大家希望更好就像95分希望100分一樣道理好,我們努力達到100分,謝謝"},{"start":5719.592,"end":5745.921,"text":"現在請莊部長部長是謝謝委員部長那個你知道那個銀行法72條之二吼行庫即將滿水位吼那在座的公股銀行董事長巴達行庫這邊我就不一一請上來那個金管會有對外宣布說大概超過這個警戒值27%以上的有15家之多這15家當中我就較於現場坐在這邊為此15家當中有沒有各公股銀行有超過27%以上的有沒有連一家都沒有"},{"start":5749.571,"end":5759.565,"text":"公股銀行都沒有?有沒有?有的請站起來哪一家?兆豐?兆豐?還有呢?易營?還有哪一家?張營?還有?"},{"start":5763.817,"end":5786.242,"text":"合庫、華銀五位董事長請坐總共有五家之多所以這邊我要請部長特別重視一下這五家當中都是您業管的一個範圍大致上的話因為公股銀行因為放貸、清安貸應該有直接的關聯性清安貸從八月底開辦以來新的清安貸開辦以來大概有7.8萬件"},{"start":5789.583,"end":5806.729,"text":"合併金額將近有6千億之多有些涉及出租的等等不管如何出現一個問題也就是說它在整個青藍帶它確實有帶動交易量的效果你看看右邊本席準備的這個表格就青藍帶的部分"},{"start":5807.489,"end":5818.832,"text":"審券交易稅條例三年,最高部分30年,額度800萬,後來全部都放寬到5年至於加速的部分,從24.5萬變26.6萬,然後28.8萬變35.5萬清清安貸所帶動的成交量比舊清安貸增加很多這種情況底下也堆高了整個房市的成長"},{"start":5832.156,"end":5852.114,"text":"好,我再讓你看另外一個數字有就是說我們個人房地合一稅2.0的部分這部分本期統計起來從2011年的部分2021年的7月開始到現在3年之久到這第一季"},{"start":5853.295,"end":5876.728,"text":"適用的對象大概有28萬件之多然後有將近6萬件一年換手也就是45%他寧願被扣那還有包括兩年內換手的33.4%差不多三分之一五年內換手的包括有75%也就是說他不怕你高稅額顯然他獲利空間遠遠大過於這個稅率的部分"},{"start":5877.328,"end":5887.95,"text":"真正超過五年不過是四分之一而已由於四分之三當中都是在增加稅務負擔的情況底下他仍然去進行交易"},{"start":5889.351,"end":5906.859,"text":"簡單說就是這些投資客沒在怕啦不怕那因此本席先請教你一下如果你透過這個交易稅的增加的情況底下都沒有達到嚇阻作用的情況底下這個房地合一稅的2.0有沒有可能推3.0部長請回答"},{"start":5909.011,"end":5929.195,"text":"二點零這個部分事實上它已經在稅率上最高在兩年內已經達到百分之四十五對沒有錯對因為它是所得那它所得裡面它扣掉了百分之四十五那已經不算低啦已經不算低然後到兩年以上到五年的時候百分之三十五我覺得這個部分這本席在問你不是在解釋二點零的內容是請教你三點零的內容"},{"start":5933.717,"end":5953.537,"text":"這個稅率的部分除了稅率之外我們其實也在加強查核這個部分對於申報的情形那也做了相關的我們的國稅局做了相關的數據簡單的講你的2.0的這個政策工具沒有達到預期的目標啦其實短期交易的數量其實有已經2.0比1.0在短期交易的部分已經有抑制到降低了14%"},{"start":5955.734,"end":5978.659,"text":"這單是就成交的內容來說還是非常的驚人一基本上不是要比1.0好而已做對話是要遏止他交易的那個熱絡量嘛不是嗎所以那個本席再請教你一點就是說有關於這個清安貸的部分剛剛有提到說他放款五年剛好他這五年他持有五年之後才開始繳息他這五年繳本席"},{"start":5979.179,"end":6000.601,"text":"五年之內它的利息是非常低然後剛好隔五年之後呢你剛好又適逢這一個兩稅合一的五年的條款經過之後那不是做漲了讓整個有投資的可能性差在持有五年的過程當中有那個優惠的這個這個利息可是五年之後呢又減少了這一個稅率的一個負擔會不會這樣子"},{"start":6003.119,"end":6028.219,"text":"委員報告雖然新清安貸款有關寬限期延長5年但是我們統計真正用寬限期到5年的只有25%並不是每個人都用而且裡面有51%他根本就沒有用寬限期那在寬限期是3年是14%換言之這些青年朋友們去買了第一間自住用的房屋他基本上還是想要盡快把本金趕快還掉"},{"start":6031.101,"end":6056.472,"text":"本席不是質疑所有的親安帶的人都是如此本席就是提醒你說呢20%以上21%以上用到五年寬限期的這個部分你要特別注意是不是有搭配投資的組合的可能性好不好所以說這個也就請教您的部分有沒有可能有滾動檢討的空間既然沒有用到五年的部分的話那何必用五年讓他有投機的機會呢不是嗎是的"},{"start":6057.232,"end":6080.911,"text":"所以說本席請教你的部分呢就是兩個政策工具一個2.0會不會變3.0第二個部分呢清安貸的部分是不是有重新檢討的空間新清安的部分已經檢討第一個就是說對於投資投機的部分的歸納的空間還有限貸一次放得太寬啦本席就聽不懂我的意思就放得太寬你要重新檢討啦好不好好再拉回來一點齁我現在請你叫那個副主委今晚副主委時間請暫停"},{"start":6088.667,"end":6112.295,"text":"副主任,剛剛在報告的時候不是每一個委員都同意當沖降稅本席就抱持了反對的立場當沖降稅的結果其實你現在寫的理由是說維持這個證券市場交易動能減低的這個證券市場不確定性我跟你講當沖降稅反而會增加不確定性這個不是真正的理由真正的理由是什麼真正的理由是食髓滋味"},{"start":6113.695,"end":6130.355,"text":"此為之為的結果呢就還要再延長甚至想要入法我說實在的我基本立場認為說你如果說要用稅賦工具來作為造勢的功能的話與其推當沖減半不如啊推TISA比較好"},{"start":6131.383,"end":6158.06,"text":"這比較長期的作用TISA跟ETF或者跟REITS的部分會有中長期造勢的功能這才是好的方式你去看當中的結果從第一次降、第二次降、第三次降外資當中的比例從7.07%變30.70%如果現在在第四次當中降稅的話它會成港到多少你只是優惠到外資而已而外資的部分我上次就提到了它每天賺一億所以累積起來你去看"},{"start":6158.8,"end":6181.465,"text":"真正當中降稅的大部分的投資人都是韭菜實質真正賺到錢的就是政府就是業者、證券業者還有包括外資如果業者、證券公會的人一直很擔心不能造勢的話一定要這個交易稅減半的情況底下才能造勢的話那業者可以手續費免費啊"},{"start":6182.691,"end":6188.027,"text":"不是嗎?你就叫他手去免費也可以造勢啊為什麼一定要用透過稅金的減免啊?"},{"start":6188.837,"end":6217.523,"text":"副主委請說是,那後面先回答TISA這邊呢我們也非常的贊同我們也在力推那目前為止我們跟財政部溝通也非常的一個順暢我們會提出一個相對比較好的方案當沖降稅這個問題是這樣子那我提一個比喻啦就好像一個鹽我們那個拔辣撒點鹽會比較甜一些些所以是說我提另外一個比喻啦嘿是就是說他是特效要當成保健品在吃啦嘿"},{"start":6218.677,"end":6220.378,"text":"市長,您認為當初的部分呢?您同不同意入法?"},{"start":6237.179,"end":6257.487,"text":"同不同意我做的日條款我想證券市場的一個變動應該是順其萬變應該要看時間、看情形要中長期的思考吧那滾動的檢討、滾動的檢討條款所以說不應該入法嘛你暫情是或是嘛所以說我希望下一次是一個日落條款啦日出的部分應該是在用TESA才對啦好不好"},{"start":6258.167,"end":6263.114,"text":"財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長翠雲率所屬機關首長財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長"},{"start":6276.308,"end":6292.461,"text":"10月8日及10月9日根據大盤的五十指數的部分它基本上在10月8日的時候誤差值才0.01就到10月隔天而已它的整個偏離度變27.84你不覺得太誇張了嗎?"},{"start":6297.093,"end":6313.866,"text":"其實在這個地方的話其實從以前到現在第一次遇到那這也是我想這是完美的小風暴為什麼說小風暴好險它的總值淨值只有18億那單位是1.9億那原因主要就是說其實也是中國那邊大量的激勵股市"},{"start":6315.046,"end":6342.255,"text":"後來整個股票往上漲不過因為10月1號到10月7號之間10月7號之間因為他們這個十一長假所以沒有一個交易量那我們這邊持續的一個交易所以在這個地方就一直上漲投資人的一個追買所以造成了這種情形不過我們現在你確定如此這是初步調查的結果嗎沒有人為炒作的方式或不法的行為嗎所以在這部分的話"},{"start":6345.066,"end":6370.736,"text":"所以現在我們已經請永豐投信提出說明而且會有監視的一個機制他也承諾會再怎樣盡速的銷你這個溢價拉到百分之三以內而且我們已經專案查核專案查核什麼時候報告會提出來這伊提豐好不容易有一個比較讓國人有信心的投資工具你不能透過這個案件來打擊投資人的信心好不好來 多久"},{"start":6371.817,"end":6391.391,"text":"貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴買貴"},{"start":6391.616,"end":6417.612,"text":"董事長向委員報告我們已經請永豐把投信把他的這個相關我們要的資料呢給我們在三天內給我們然後我們預計在大概一個禮拜到兩個禮拜之間把這個報告做好兩個禮拜之內看你的報告謝謝部長謝謝副主委謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝委員"},{"start":6429.835,"end":6431.197,"text":"好,接下來我們請待會委員的質詢謝謝主席,有請部長有請總部長"},{"start":6451.394,"end":6466.047,"text":"政府從2010年12月其實它就開辦了清安貸款專案它專門就是提供年齡在20歲以上的借款人但是借款人就是跟配偶及未成年子女"},{"start":6466.647,"end":6494.027,"text":"都沒有住用住宅的一個黃貸的利息的補貼那它貸款的層數最高到八成那這個貸款的年限最長四到三十年那我們經歷了六度的延長截至到去年2023年6月底子我們協助了34萬戶沒有住用住宅的家庭的購屋當年大概全台灣有933萬間的一個住宅那我們累計合貸了1.43兆"},{"start":6496.345,"end":6501.432,"text":"我想在這裡跟部長請教這樣子的一個那個數字對不對"},{"start":6503.754,"end":6528.219,"text":"委員的數字應該是對的因為您是從一開始民國99年開辦以來一直累計下來的是是我想就是說從去年7月開始那就是說我們因應了今年全球通盤黃價上漲還有就是升息的一個趨勢我們又推出了一個清安貸款的精進的方案就是我們現在講的新清安"},{"start":6529.239,"end":6535.703,"text":"其實新清安最主要希望進一步減輕購屋者的貸款負擔其實我在這裡頭一個比照這個圖片裡頭我們可以看得出來從現在最高的800萬到現在提高到1000萬這一個數字裡頭來講的話就等於是說所謂的新清安優惠的一個政策"},{"start":6557.314,"end":6584.362,"text":"部長,我們中南部已經沒有一千萬一千萬以下的房子了全部都跳上來了尤其以我們中南部最明顯我不知道部長有沒有聽聞這樣的一個信息了解這個部分那個中南部部分有一些因為產業的產業的發展有一些是公共建設的一個到位以後那是周遭的房地產的價格確實有一些變動"},{"start":6585.482,"end":6612.057,"text":"是,所以這個變動是非常急劇的所以就是說其實清安政策已經是延續了十多年的一個政策在下一頁那顯然政府一言再言那就是延長它的實施可見這個政策一定有它的重要性而沒有辦法有落日條款那你覺得是不是需要有落日條款部長你的看法呢我的看法是認為說"},{"start":6613.658,"end":6632.585,"text":"民眾他對於居住的房屋的需求他可能有自己的選擇可能有的是採取租成租的方式那有的是希望能夠買到自己的房子做自住使用對於這樣他希望能夠買到一間房子做自住使用那政府給予相關的協助我認為是有必要的因為"},{"start":6633.385,"end":6648.401,"text":"我們知道青年朋友們出入社會他的收入其實是有限的情況下那他又想買一間房子那我們第一個就貸款額度上的一個比例貸款金額上限可以給一定的一千萬比如八百萬調高到一千萬以及寬限期的一個延長"},{"start":6651.284,"end":6667.708,"text":"我覺得對於在出買房子的人來說可以減輕他的一個生活負擔能夠兼顧在生活品質之下能夠又擁有一間自己的房子我認為這個是有必要而且我們其實從新清安實施以來我們可以看到其實49歲也就50歲以下的人是佔了94%所以事實上是大部分都是在40幾歲、30幾歲的青年朋友們去買的40幾歲、30幾歲部長我讓你再看一張圖"},{"start":6680.071,"end":6683.153,"text":"財政部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率之二及第十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":6703.506,"end":6723.825,"text":"新清安貸款的戶數不如之前﹖當然可能有很多原因因為剛好是疫情的元素還有就是房屋買氣降低所以就是說政策你的推出以後發生了哪些問題現在接著要跟你討論是不是投機客太多還是人頭戶還是貸後"},{"start":6725.987,"end":6741.774,"text":"就是他把他轉租的這一些亂象那事實上就是說我們財政部在6月27號我們也提出了一個新清安貸款的經濟方案你有增加了借款人限就是限貸一次這一些巴巴巴這些規定"},{"start":6743.174,"end":6755.683,"text":"請公股、行戶加強集合本席跟你肯定問題就是說我們有沒有這個政策推出了以後相關的黃帶法規他並沒有配合的一個範圍寬我們在講到了銀行法72之二"},{"start":6760.663,"end":6786.969,"text":"那這樣子的話就是銀行沒有跟著上來是不是可能可能會引發傷及無辜的一個現代人的風波呢是不是部長你的看法跟委員報告那因為這段時間因為房地產熱絡所以有關銀行的資金到流到不動產貸款這個部分事實上就是有剛剛就講比例可能稍微高了比較高"},{"start":6788.489,"end":6809.857,"text":"行政院院長也提醒了相關的我們的航庫公民銀行庫都一樣都要注意這樣一個情況也就是避免資金過度流入到不動產市場排擠到其他的產業那我想這個部分當然會影響到整個房貸的一個結構那行政院院長也已經提出來第一個就是說我們必須要有一個順序第一個首購組"},{"start":6810.868,"end":6827.418,"text":"一定不能去影響它因為它是買第一間房子那第二個已經承諾了貸款要做另外也要去調整自己貸款就銀行的貸款結構而避免過度大額的做集中那這個部分呢對於首購主那親親安安的都是屬於首購主那應該不會受到影響"},{"start":6829.019,"end":6856.239,"text":"您有把一些就是看到了目前的一些需要解決的一個方法跟就是一些困境了那我在這裡再特別提醒你那個總統在國慶日的演說裡頭也特別再一次強調了居住的一個正義這個是非常重要的所以本席在這裡提出就是說我們所講的新清安的一個政策還是現代令的一個政策也好相關的一個討論都是以全國為範圍下一張"},{"start":6859.601,"end":6878.667,"text":"全國為範圍以外是不是每一個縣市它有各自不同的情形例如就是說今年那個科學園區跟台積電然後台南高雄的房價都上漲了很多因此本席特別跟你要求就是你在一個月內提供縣市別的新清安累積受理"},{"start":6879.247,"end":6904.728,"text":"還有累積合撥的一個戶數的一個金額那基本一起了解就是說其他的縣市那就是跟台南民眾的申請性清安的一個情形因為為什麼我們跟銀行要不到這些資料所以也希望央行協助在一個業內就是以書面提出現代令包括就是協助處理的一個措施對於就是"},{"start":6905.729,"end":6926.12,"text":"禁止草房的一個目前的成效還有就是對於全國各縣市房價的一個影響的評估提供給本席委員的要求我們會去提供這相關的資料就是縣市的一個分析就是親親愛的縣市的一個狀況好部長最後請教你以你個人的看法這一次打房是打真的還是打假的"},{"start":6927.501,"end":6947.308,"text":"這打草房不是打房是打草房是房地產是要來住來用不是拿來炒作的我想央行祭出了第七次的信用管制這個部分把適用的範圍也擴大那我們從最近的看起來房地產的交易量事實確實上是有一些往下降"},{"start":6948.268,"end":6973.437,"text":"所以你認為這是一個真正的一個政策我認為房地產應該不能當作投機的一個標的我想這個是不好的不能投機可以投資投資當然他需要付出相關的一些成本包含我們其實在稅的部分也有做調整比如說像我們的房地房屋稅的調整對於持有多屋不自住的房屋的話那他必須負擔較高的持有成本"},{"start":6973.677,"end":6994.991,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6995.251,"end":6998.033,"text":"長照是全面性的租稅不是唯一的一個減薪負擔的一個方式"},{"start":7012.643,"end":7018.004,"text":"總統在國慶也提到要持續推動長照3.0包含有關的府紀、租界、喘息服務等等各項政府以各種方面的方方面面來協助有家庭有需要長期照顧的一個家人的負擔那在租稅的部分我們是把它列為特別扣除每一個人每年是可以扣除12萬"},{"start":7035.109,"end":7037.97,"text":"財政部有沒有自己的版本?你從108年制定到現在都沒有條,你通膨這麼嚴重,那是不是會調整啊?你要有自己的版本啊?"},{"start":7054.759,"end":7077.919,"text":"有沒有在準備呢?我們再來研議,我們再來研議。那什麼時候會讓本席知道呢?因為在有關涉及到所得稅的部分,我們可能要做一個通盤的考量以及對一個影響、一個配套措施等等。我想這個議題很多委員都跟你提出來了,甚至就是說一個業內給本席這樣的一個資料,好嗎?"},{"start":7078.319,"end":7083.06,"text":"好的,我們把資料演繹報告送給委員室,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝部長。謝謝代會委員的諮詢,請接著我們請李燕秀委員諮詢。謝謝召委,我請部長。"},{"start":7101.38,"end":7128.889,"text":"部長早 好久不見了我今天其實好多個問題我們就快速的答案給我我先問一個很多民眾陳情的問題因為我關注到今年度其實你們有對於出國帶回的物品的免稅額有做一些調整那包括入境免稅額從兩萬條到三萬五你們的理由是說你們參考了物價的指數包括國民所得跟國際的物價等等"},{"start":7130.13,"end":7152.046,"text":"這個政策看起來民眾其實也鼓掌較好因為其實免稅2萬塊一趟好不容易有機會出國買回來東西其實常常其實3萬塊3萬5好像好像好像很多人還跟我反映說3萬5其實也不是太足夠但是其實這是一個正確的方向我們就給你鼓勵但是"},{"start":7153.067,"end":7168.964,"text":"我要提到的就是有關進口郵包的部分因為從疫情過後大家的習慣性很多人沒時間出國或者是出國的花費更多他們寧願購物的方式是用郵購的方式這在疫情之後大家培養的習慣那我們現在進口的郵包現在還是規範在新台幣2000塊"},{"start":7175.771,"end":7204.029,"text":"那我稍微參考了一下國外的數字我們看一下後面兩張我們韓國進口的郵包他們免稅額是在4800塊台幣左右新加坡是9800香港進口是全部都免稅然後美國是定在25000台幣左右這個金額更高所以部長我們既然出國帶回來免稅品有調整其實我更認為"},{"start":7205.51,"end":7224.275,"text":"其實2000塊郵包齁有時候我常在網路上購買一些韓國的美妝啦化妝品啦其實2000塊常常一下子就超過了所以我認為這個政策其實應該有檢討的必要性部長你認為呢或署長可不可以直接回應我"},{"start":7225.595,"end":7251.406,"text":"跟委員報告我們原來是3000塊在107年的時候有調為2000塊那當然第一個考慮到其實現在什麼都漲了嘛全世界物價什麼都漲了嘛我們同時有考慮到國內電商平台業者還有進口業者還有相關製造業的一個租稅公平這個部分我們必須是要去考慮的然後同時也要避免這個濫用這個低價免稅制度的有討論當然但是我提到的就是說既然"},{"start":7253.767,"end":7259.312,"text":"從國外貸還免稅品我們有提高我們過去也是3000塊後來我們調漲為2000但是現在考慮到同樣物價的指數國民所得國際的物價在這三個前提之下我們這個郵購的這個相關的一些物件免稅的額度其實也應該可以同時一併再做進一步的檢討"},{"start":7277.549,"end":7294.38,"text":"也跟委員報告,謝謝委員這邊收集的相當完整的資料但我們所知,其實各國目前也有一些在檢討是不是要取消這樣的一個進口免稅額度這個部分我們覺得這個部分事實上要跟國際的趨勢必須要能夠接軌一次"},{"start":7295.18,"end":7316.733,"text":"我同意接軌,那你現階段人家的金額我們都沒跟人家接軌所以部長我覺得這個可以儘快因為這個是民眾有感啊你們的政府都在講說民眾有感民眾有感我就提到說我接到了很多陳情在網路上大家的意見是這樣所以我希望部長可不可以在兩個月之內不管結果如何"},{"start":7317.754,"end":7320.276,"text":"二個月之內提出一個報告結果給我,好不好?"},{"start":7320.276,"end":7338.769,"text":"好的,謝謝委員。好,我了解。好,這是第一個問題。好,第二個問題是金融營業稅的部分方向。之前金管會的主委跟我回應說我們希望打亞洲盃、打世界盃,包括我們雖然沒有機會"},{"start":7340.291,"end":7349.61,"text":"在上一波成為亞洲的金融中心但是我們希望還是有機會在這個階段成為亞洲的資產管理中心可以兌現"},{"start":7352.214,"end":7373.274,"text":"賴總統的政策到底我們營業稅的方向上個會期回應我說調整成2%或3%今年年底要做確定年底時間也到了總是該有一個結果跟方向而且這個部分還涉及到後面的修法對不對這個會期時間也不多所以部長到底方向是什麼到底是降為2%還是3%"},{"start":7375.194,"end":7399.42,"text":"跟委員報告金融營業稅有關銀行跟保險本業的營業稅目前是5%好那因為這裡面有一個就是金融營業稅撥入金融業特別準備金到今年年底部長這個我都知道大家都知道你只要回答我到底是2%3%時間點目前沒有調整的規劃完全沒有調整的規劃目前沒有調整的規劃所以年底也不要修法目前沒有因為不需要修法"},{"start":7401.201,"end":7410.749,"text":"所以還是維持5%維持5%那所有的稅款就改進入國庫那進入國庫以後當然我們會做國家監視這個是確定的方向是的"},{"start":7413.179,"end":7432.611,"text":"我尊重但是我必須這是跨部會討論的結果我們有跟金管會做密切的溝通以及了解以及我們也做討論總統也知道這件事情嗎這個部分在我們編列預算的時候當然都會去討論明年可能的一些稅務的金額部長我提醒你們啦"},{"start":7436.234,"end":7457.887,"text":"這件事牽涉到賴清德當時選舉的政策跟政見這也是當時他找彭金榮來的另外一個非常主要的原因他希望成為亞洲的資產管理中心世界上目前包括新加坡也好很多對於金融業稅他甚至是很低甚至是零所以"},{"start":7458.627,"end":7480.138,"text":"我尊重你們最後的決定,等會兒完全執政就要負責任但是這個會讓我們未來產業的發展、金融業的發展會不會更沒有彈性如果這是你正確的決定我尊重但是我覺得這個未來要變成打亞洲盃打世界盃的亞洲資產管理中心我認為挑戰是非常高的"},{"start":7480.418,"end":7508.038,"text":"也跟委員報告當然這個部分我們也經過詳細的討論跟金管會第一個就是說我們目前銀行業保險整體稅負和國際比較起來並沒有比較好部長部長我尊重你們我就不再這個問題因為我後面我想問新清安的問題我只是要提醒你們你們後面打亞洲杯打世界杯亞洲資產管理中心你們的彈性可能就會越來越少接下來我還是要問新清安政策我也請金管會的副主委陳燕良副主委今天有來對不對"},{"start":7510.199,"end":7536.832,"text":"部長那個我想這個會議齁你剛回應前一個委員賴昭偉你回應說不是打房是打草房打草房這件事情就是說房價上漲得太厲害我覺得合理的意志我尊重但是這第七波歷年來有史以來最高的打草房的政策是誰引起的是新清安政策引起的"},{"start":7538.686,"end":7554.585,"text":"當時沒有思考清楚我們長久以來對於不合理的房價提升長期來我們都有一定的政策在管制長期來都有但是這一波是新清安政策當時沒有思考清楚所衍生的後果"},{"start":7555.066,"end":7582.003,"text":"好,那後果已經產生不管各個工會產業界都有不同版本建議進來我希望你們兩位都有看到兩個部會都有看到甚至央行都有看到但是我要提醒你們就是說現在很多民間當時在做一些商品的就是說貸款的同時包括公股銀行也是有一些甚至會要求說要加買一些保險所以這個部分"},{"start":7582.663,"end":7595.348,"text":"我看到產業界有陳情就是說這個部分讓承貸戶的負擔更加嚴重那這一點到底公股銀行有沒有這樣的問題未來我們會不會做管理"},{"start":7597.131,"end":7609.899,"text":"與委員報告沒有這樣的一個問題有關房貸加稅你沒有聽說嗎就是房貸的同時要加買其他保險的商品衍生商品房貸的時候要買其他相關商品推薦明示暗示的方式購買無關的金融產品不能作為"},{"start":7619.085,"end":7641.898,"text":"是否核准貸款的一個條件?我當然知道但是你這個是官方的回答部長不要坐在辦公室裡面我提醒的是我聽到我也知道有這樣子的聲音有這樣問題在所以我提醒你我今天我是善意的提醒你不要把我的諮詢都當作我在我善意的提醒你有這麼一件事情所以"},{"start":7642.858,"end":7655.883,"text":"做房貸同時無關緊要的金融商品要順便要買明示或暗示的方式貸款會更順利這個都加重他們的負擔一隻牛被八九存平所以部長好好改進然後另外到底我們25年前我們講說那個不動產的放貸不得超過30%的上限"},{"start":7669.865,"end":7688.181,"text":"這是30年前的你說銀行法的規定嗎?銀行法,對我們現在銀行投資的管道很多元投資買什麼東西很多元到底30%的上限有沒有檢討的必要性這是金管會的業務25年前"},{"start":7692.436,"end":7700.226,"text":"到底那個比例怎麼樣分配是一個比較合理的方法跟方式其實銀行的投資面臨現在國際的挑戰"},{"start":7702.979,"end":7730.651,"text":"國際金融的挑戰處處都有風險什麼是一個最合理的比例30%放在房貸的上限是25年前有沒有重新討論的必要性或者重新把所有的比例重新拿回來討論我覺得這是一個很重要的課題跟議題這次打房昨天是講到說因為打得快到28了放貸到28了我們不希望到28我們後面再來打可能會越打越重今晚會主委昨天是這麼講的所以我提醒你們"},{"start":7731.511,"end":7734.716,"text":"就是說我覺得可以重新再檢討因為這畢竟是25年前的規範跟規定嘛"},{"start":7741.363,"end":7768.937,"text":"副主委是謝謝委員那因為這是一個風險集中度的問題那我想我們回去都有風險什麼樣都有風險只是我覺得這是25年前的38放貸放在房貸放在比是不是一個合理有沒有重新把所有的比例再拿出來檢討還不只是房貸包括其他的投資都是我覺得可以重新再討論是這我也請銀行局把這個課題帶回去研究一個月之內給我答案是好謝謝委員"},{"start":7769.957,"end":7774.46,"text":"主席在這裡報告我們接著是李昆城委員的一個質詢李昆城委員質詢完以後我們休息五分鐘好 謝謝主席我請我們財政部長"},{"start":7800.224,"end":7800.426,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":7803.72,"end":7833.06,"text":"委員好部長好我呼應一下剛才我們林彥秀委員所講的中央銀行他明天就要來報告那麼他在中間的打房第七波也做了一些修正那我自己其實我跑財經新聞非常非常久我有跟楊金龍總裁說過我說這次打房的力道事實上是在過去都很少見的當然我也在總諮詢之後提到"},{"start":7834.1,"end":7857.379,"text":"這一波為什麼要打房是因為台灣的房價漲得太兇了而其中的元兇跟推手之一就是新青安就如同剛才李燕秀委員所講的當然現在新青安包含財政部、央行還有我們現在各行庫去提出了一些補救的措施"},{"start":7858.766,"end":7874.994,"text":"但是我覺得不應該讓這些炒房的惡果房教高深的惡果最後給一些他其實並沒有在炒房雖然他可能有兩棟房子他要第二棟去做貸款"},{"start":7875.814,"end":7892.224,"text":"所以還好中央銀行現在針對一些繼承的部分在總諮詢我就特別提到有很多是繼承的有很多他的主產是在中南部但是他在北部打拼他可能在北部因為孩子要上學或者他就業的關係"},{"start":7894.105,"end":7912.978,"text":"他要買第二戶但是呢他就變成被打房的目標對象這是非常不合理的事情另外我也要提醒部長還有現場的各個我們的公營行庫因為我知道其實絕大部分的行庫在房貸的部分事實上都已經幾乎到頂了"},{"start":7914.609,"end":7935.856,"text":"現在雖然緩和一些可是到年底也非常有可能另外一波的現代措施因為他們的這個額度已經幾乎都到不管是央行的規定還有這個我們原來財政部的相關的規定金管會的規定他們幾乎都會到了一定的程度所以這一點也拜託"},{"start":7936.676,"end":7958.576,"text":"不要讓其實是他是非常合理他沒有在炒房的這些購屋者然後他去承受這樣的打擊跟苦果好那今天其實主要討論我們那個就是當沖稅率部長在之前啊我也都特別提到好時間暫停一下我請金管會今天是副主委來嗎好時間暫停"},{"start":7968.393,"end":7977.437,"text":"部長還有副主委我大概是在立法院極為少數極極極少數的委員提到我們當沖稅率一降再降是有問題的一個是之前今天賴氏堡委員特別提到明明法在那邊我們可以一言再言然後降稅長達十年你們繼續言下去長達十年請問一下中華民國的稅制是怎樣"},{"start":7996.468,"end":8018.007,"text":"如果你覺得應該要修法就去修法怎麼可能用這樣的階段性階段性的一言再言什麼時候落日呢稅制之破壞莫此為甚我也很遺憾啊我本來跟部長講我願意站在你們這邊結果你們自己要退讓啊然後你自己都要退讓我還要當唯一的黑臉嗎"},{"start":8023.618,"end":8039.753,"text":"但是身為立法委員我還是要講出這樣的事實好來請問一下副主委金管會一再的要求要降再當沖這個稅率減半繼續調降你們基的理由是什麼是活絡市場嗎"},{"start":8041.863,"end":8059.717,"text":"是委員因為基本上的話其實根據目前的一個數據剛剛有提到對於不管是市場的交易量流動性以及政府的稅收就是整體而言是都是往上的都是往上的那你機會會短稅收喔你別扯了"},{"start":8061.878,"end":8073.833,"text":"請問一下是不是要活絡那個市場交易?是,其實是。好,那如果我們日均量已經達到4千億、5千億還要再活絡,活絡到什麼程度你們才甘心呢?你們才滿意呢?"},{"start":8076.84,"end":8097.812,"text":"其實我們對於國際的成交量目前為止仍然是有差距但我也知道這不能把這個當成一個長久的一個比喻要延長到十年還不長久嗎?十年不夠長久嗎?不是十個月唷我要講的就是你儘管會"},{"start":8103.653,"end":8128.569,"text":"這個市場吃上馬飛之後啊太好吃了要繼續吃即便我們覺得在不管是在交易量活絡市場或者事實上我過去也曾經指出其實大部分的人是虧錢啊少部分的人才賺錢啊國庫有沒有賺錢有啦因為政府是唯一的莊家嘛"},{"start":8129.52,"end":8147.756,"text":"可是第一個這破壞稅制第二個以活絡市場來講從你當時為什麼要這個當沖來降稅是因為活絡市場當時有它的背景包含疫情的關係包含整個的市場不好的關係在我們實施的時候"},{"start":8149.028,"end":8168.941,"text":"日均量在一千億以下我們覺得應該要活絡兩千億你還要活絡三千億你還要活絡現在四千億五千億你還要活絡請問一下我就說請問你的目標在哪裡啊以後七八千億你繼續活絡吧我告訴你因為券商通通都會那個遊說啊繼續降啊"},{"start":8173.168,"end":8195.712,"text":"對不對財政部也擋不住啊財政部只能把從五年擋成三年而已啊施上去就變成馬非啦那就把馬非法治化好了啊就修法嘛我這邊要凸顯的是第一個機管會的荒謬迫於建商"},{"start":8197.142,"end":8217.69,"text":"要求然後你們不敢承擔到時候哎呀這個股市不好怎麼辦哪用用用那個什麼要承擔這樣責任然後財政部呢也擋不住沒有肩膀對於維護稅制也沒有你的立場最後就變成這樣子啊奇形怪狀啊"},{"start":8220.43,"end":8222.291,"text":"時間暫停我請國庫署好時間暫停國庫署還有台九國庫署"},{"start":8251.257,"end":8251.899,"text":"台酒公司"},{"start":8260.56,"end":8282.212,"text":"部長、署長我們台酒公司董事長因為是剛剛上任他就是就是奉命行事吧我在這邊特別要講的就是我們台酒在我們的建國啤酒廠有個最重要你們要把它變成你們的總部大樓的一個原來是都更案現在要變成一個改建案這個事情呢其實吵了非常久"},{"start":8286.621,"end":8311.269,"text":"我要讓部長跟署長知道的是我們台酒公司有一個非常非常重要珍貴的文化資產就是唯一台灣唯一在百年以上的建國啤酒廠它是一個火谷級但是現在因為北克大因為它的效力它以效力不足要求來做分割"},{"start":8312.898,"end":8327.428,"text":"而現在我知道行政院從當時的鄭文燦副院長到現在的陳金德都一路的殺下去讓台酒公司把他的火股機分割給北科大教育我們都支持但是大家也知道校地各處都有"},{"start":8335.629,"end":8349.036,"text":"而且現在少子化一大堆的校地都要閒置了所以現在要找校地其實並不困難可是北哥大因為向上了我們這個建國啤酒廠的這塊地死都又要"},{"start":8350.359,"end":8375.572,"text":"死都要要但是其結果最後它的分割造成一個完整的活股機百年建國啤酒廠的活股機被分割只有頭留在我們的台酒建國啤酒廠身體跟腳都要分割給北科大為什麼呢?因為他要拿來換容機率合理嗎?合理嗎?"},{"start":8379.54,"end":8406.495,"text":"所以部長這個地其實那個國庫署應該知道了我要講的是我前兩天開記者會我很不高興的是我們不應該偷跑先去做分割我也知道這樣的一個政策是來自於行政院由上而下的交辦可是這是非常不合理的同樣我真的拜託包含行政院包含台九要有肩膀"},{"start":8408.421,"end":8433.646,"text":"這是你們的資產你在報告裡面還說你要什麼要保存文化資產文化資產在你這邊你都去送給人啊所以請你未來在行政院不管是陳金德不然以後不管以後的副院長跑來跟你講說要分割你都要講說一個好好的文化資產為什麼要把它大卸八塊可不可以"},{"start":8435.592,"end":8460.965,"text":"可以嗎?跟委員報告有關文化資產的保存這絕對要重視而且必須依照文資法的規定要提出有關修復跟再利用的計畫這個絕對是非常嚴謹的那第二個對於目前這一塊土地內政部正在都市計畫的審議當中那相關的審議當然要按照審議的結果來做處理我想這個部分我們應該要尊重都市計畫的審議的結果來做處理所以啦"},{"start":8464.775,"end":8490.747,"text":"都審會都還沒審啊十月二十四號他們準備強行過關啊他們準備準備啊對不起十月二十二號他們準備強行過關但是我希望我們的財政部我們的台九還是要有一些擔當啊自己的文資唯一的耶北科大效益卓著他要有校舍也OK"},{"start":8492.683,"end":8507.451,"text":"臺灣這麼多地為什麼非要去找一個一個唯一的百年啤酒廠的一個這個文資地區好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝王洪輝委員接著我們請李坤城委員執行"},{"start":8519.386,"end":8535.812,"text":"謝謝主席我們請財政部莊部長還有我們101的董事長甲董事長請莊部長請甲董事長這個我第一次看到我們財委會開會有這麼多的媒體在這個昭文你也很有面子謝謝"},{"start":8548.452,"end":8562.983,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝賈董事長我先恭喜賈董事長剛完成六大碼之一的芝加哥馬拉松然後還穿著101大樓的背心去跑也算是幫101大樓來行銷所以來當101的董事長也肩負著行銷的重責大任"},{"start":8570.77,"end":8584.504,"text":"今天早上才回到臺北嗎?報告委員是。6點鐘的時候降落。也非常的辛苦。不過請教一下,我剛剛其他委員也有問到,就是說這一次雙十國慶、101有舉辦國慶的煙火。這次國慶我部長事前知不知道?"},{"start":8592.738,"end":8595.402,"text":"我是第一次舉辦這個國慶宴是第一次這是董事長自己的想法就對了"},{"start":8606.107,"end":8619.394,"text":"對,這是我很希望說能夠讓臺灣國慶這件事情可以讓世界可以看得到是,出發點跟優異都真的很好那大家也很期待就是覺得說應該會像這一個我們的跨年煙火時間這麼長不過時間比較短是4分鐘逛掉這1分鐘的這個煙火嘛是"},{"start":8627.478,"end":8637.13,"text":"我看你的臉書啦你上面是寫說這個你短短的17天之內把這件事情成功的把它執行完畢那所以當然第一個17天的話時間上"},{"start":8638.786,"end":8657.162,"text":"可能有點短可能有點短就是當然我知道董事長就是希望說在就任之後第一個有表現那第二個說希望說在雙十國慶希望把這一個不是這一個除了總統府有活動之外在101大樓臺灣的地標全世界都知道的這個地方也這個舉辦煙火不過17天的這個時間"},{"start":8661.046,"end":8675.795,"text":"是臨時想到嗎?還是怎麼樣?因為時間來講的確比較短,因為財政部長也不知道。報告委員,其實17天真的是蠻趕的,但是我們是確實有十足的把握才能夠這樣子舉行。"},{"start":8677.356,"end":8702.144,"text":"所以我覺得應該不是說我們的煙火的時間或者是光雕展演的時間而是其實我們在事前確實都已經有所有的公告我們在宣傳的時候也都據時的講我們所有的時間我請問一下那預算是怎麼來的?因為我看說你這個hashtag上面說史上第一個把董事長自己辦公室預算幾乎花光光這個預算是哪裡來的?"},{"start":8703.324,"end":8729.75,"text":"這個預算真的就是董事長辦公室裡面的預算因為我們董事長辦公室呢他會有一部分的預算是屬於行銷費用那既然是行銷呢這就完全符合規定那花了多少預算我們花了一百七十萬一百七十萬那其實引起這麼多討論其實一百七十萬其實是值得啦但是你知道101有很多的關股銀行是你的股東是就都在這裡我知道屬於這個101的關股"},{"start":8732.442,"end":8742.053,"text":"我們董事長或是總經理請舉手好嗎有趙鋒然後還有益銀還有華銀還有勒?"},{"start":8745.017,"end":8772.173,"text":"有很多啦我看有這麼多舉手所以你看嘛我們有這麼多關股在這邊有很多關股是你的這個董事的代表所以以後有這個活動齁可以事先早點規劃我們有這麼多關股齁可以來支援你然後他們也不用花到說你自己的這一個自己的預算那這是好事我相信齁大家都願意共襄盛舉啦好不好謝謝好謝謝齁那蔣董事長請回謝謝"},{"start":8776.022,"end":8794.173,"text":"總部長,請教一下我記得在今年大概四月份左右我有針對財政部來做質詢當時有提到說營業稅的起徵點要制度化的定期調整第二個小營業額、小定價20萬是否可以調整當時你們是講說營業稅起徵點有可能會來做調整"},{"start":8799.315,"end":8821.997,"text":"但是呢這個二十萬開發票這個極具你們不同意調整那這已經經過半年的時間了耶經過半年的時間那我記得這個你也私底下都有來找過這個委員會有來委員來協調過就是說這起征點如果按照這個CPI來做調整那有可能這個會調整到這一個"},{"start":8823.638,"end":8830.001,"text":"銷售的貨物由8萬調整到10萬,勞務的部分由4萬提升到5萬塊。到底這個研議的如何?何時會公告實施?這個已經超過半年多的時間了。"},{"start":8838.826,"end":8859.204,"text":"是,謝謝委員的關心。這個部分我們近期就會做預告。對。時間的話,我想這個月十月底。十月底會公告實施嗎?預告,我們要預告,因為是一定的程序。對,對,對。十月底預告,那預告期是多久?預告期我們..."},{"start":8862.246,"end":8888.213,"text":"大概原則60天,原則上我們把它調整為30天對啊,因為這個東西已經討論很久了是,然後大家也都很關心那只聞樓梯響啊,那一直人就沒有出來我們也把相關的論述把它寫清楚這樣子,所以我們會做這樣調整好,10月底會公告?預告、預告、預告那希望說在11月底能夠公告實施嗎?實施的時間會在"},{"start":8892.103,"end":8920.25,"text":"我們明年的1月1號開始實施那調整的幅度勒?就是原則上就是按委員剛剛這邊的一個是對阿這也是你們當初跟我們提的一個你們這個起徵點可以調的一個幅度嘛是是是謝謝委員的提示對阿因為大家也都在關心阿我想奇怪我也問了這個半年多了那當初你們也很積極就是說希望說委員能夠同意那就半年多的時間過也沒有"},{"start":8921.09,"end":8933.364,"text":"請問一下新青安你們有去做了兩波的查核第一波查核查出人頭戶有170件第二波查核查出違規戶有73件違規戶也做了懲罰我先請問一下這個懲罰目前有去做實施了嗎?"},{"start":8939.776,"end":8967.845,"text":"我跟委員報告到目前來說我們查核出來的屬於人頭戶的有209件然後出租的是1366件那這個部分我們各行戶都會去找這些違規則第一個我們要求好那我問說執行執行度如何第二個就是要調整那個貸款的一些條件那目前各我們各個行戶都在積極積極的跟這些貸款戶來做要求我想知道你們的執行的情況"},{"start":8968.705,"end":8995.694,"text":"執行的情況可能各銀行目前都積極都在還在積極做沒關係你就是說比如說到這一個追回的到已經有300多件了因為我們也要好好跟這些民眾好好講當然我知道我只想知道說各個行庫他們的這個執行的情況可不可以我一份資料好的就到10月中好那我再請教一下這一個部長這個統一發票統一發票這一個你們在編的預算數"},{"start":8997.074,"end":9000.236,"text":"這個113年是編了146億然後114年就是明年的預算編了180億增加了34億大概23%左右是不是這個增加了23億"},{"start":9012.554,"end":9017.117,"text":"我們編這個經費有關統一發票中獎獎金跟推廣經費是按照營業稅的預算數3%來編列的所以是這樣的一個情況那增加的一個金額其實我們會在每一年的時候我們會先會規劃每一期的統一發票的開獎的沒有啊我是看你們的預算數啊對對對沒錯所以因為有這樣的一個金額以後我們就會去規劃"},{"start":9040.292,"end":9049.624,"text":"每一期然後統一發票開獎的獎別跟主訴我們會去規劃那如果看執行的結果看執行的結果我重點就在於說啦我重點就在於說你們統一發票獎金呢這個金額有"},{"start":9055.552,"end":9056.213,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9084.136,"end":9101.487,"text":"投獎的,因為它不是雲端發票,這個部分不會...就紙本發票的部分啊。來,署長。報告委員,因為我們投獎它有對號,有紙本也有雲端,所以我們現在加開的是雲端發票專屬獎500元的50萬組,在接下來這兩期。"},{"start":9107.87,"end":9128.798,"text":"明年我們一般來講就會看預算的狀況會不會增加所以我才問部長就是說電子發票的獎數會增加紙本發票的獎數會不會也增加啦重點在這邊啦我們原則上會比較朝向雲端發票的部分因為這是未來整個2050淨雲碳排一個非常重要的"},{"start":9129.138,"end":9159.138,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9159.278,"end":9160.539,"text":"禮貢城委員休息5分鐘"},{"start":9636.156,"end":9655.997,"text":"本席在這裡宣布繼續開會接著我們請王珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":9670.503,"end":9673.945,"text":"財政部莊部長及金管會陳副主委財政部部長及陳副主委"},{"start":9686.581,"end":9698.805,"text":"副主委好我想今天大家都非常關心有關當沖降稅的事我想每個委員都有自己的立場我現在今天要跟大家就教的是有關鼓勵分離課稅的問題"},{"start":9700.685,"end":9719.457,"text":"當然台灣今天金管會的報告我看到了金管會雖然在當沖降稅裡面列出了一些相關的其他國家的狀況然後說我們的證交稅當沖降稅還是符合國際趨勢但是金管會的報告裡面少說了其他國家是有證索稅的"},{"start":9720.698,"end":9742.678,"text":"台灣沒有證所稅所以我們證交稅某個部分取代了部分的證券交易或證券上面的獲利的稅額對吧兩位也就是說不要再用我們的證交稅用當沖降稅讓其他國家沒有證交稅所以我們的證交稅降低是合理的因為台灣沒有證所稅"},{"start":9744.983,"end":9759.015,"text":"是台灣沒有正所稅所以現在的問題是我們現在針對國際的稅改我們希望說他能夠簡化所以在107年的時候我們在鼓勵上面做了分離課稅對吧部長"},{"start":9761.018,"end":9780.653,"text":"二折一合併或分離都可以但是大部分的人大戶都會選擇分離也許小戶他可以用合併所以部長你在107年到現在我們所謂的分離課稅之後你覺得國家的稅收增加了還是減少了"},{"start":9782.95,"end":9801.656,"text":"從統計來看,我們整體的國家稅收是成長的,因為經濟也成長,所以我們稅收就成長。因為股票交易也很多,所以股票沒有分離,所以稅務也增加了。鼓勵投資,鼓勵投資市場活絡,沒有問題。但是你覺得有沒有符合到稅收的公平性?"},{"start":9803.708,"end":9820.54,"text":"關於稅收的公平性當然我們可以滾動檢討來做研議我們就直接開門見山講現在的分離課稅大概是28%原來如果繳到所謂的資本利得它如果高的話它去報所得稅的話我們最高可以到40%"},{"start":9822.764,"end":9845.023,"text":"所以有很多人大戶們他們可能就選擇了分離課稅所以他的所謂的稅率是大概28%那從負稅署的統計我們在106年當年度的最高所得的級距也就是當時的有效稅率是大概38%下降到35%從106年也就是我們這些實質應該繳稅的大概是38%左右"},{"start":9850.888,"end":9857.24,"text":"但是在我們進行分離課稅之後我們的實質稅率大概降為所謂的28%所以部長我們到底有沒有稅損啊?"},{"start":9863.305,"end":9885.233,"text":"我想跟委員報告這要整體來看適用28%的大學生他是沒有其他的可以扣抵的事項的所以我今天就是要總和來用這個稅率來算今天就叫這個事情順便請金管會副主委我想活絡投資市場也是我們的立場但是課稅跟"},{"start":9887.79,"end":9890.172,"text":"行政院函請審議:「證券交易稅條例第二條之三及第十四條文修正草案"},{"start":9906.201,"end":9924.262,"text":"所以沒有人敢刻然後用分離課稅目前是恐怖平衡好不重要重要是給你看這個圖這個圖就是我們課零百分之零就是沒有繳一般勞動所得的人有兩千多戶他其實是分離課稅的申報者"},{"start":9925.183,"end":9932.651,"text":"這些人應該是股票大戶5%他只報5%的有1400戶報到12%的有1300戶報到20%的有1900戶這些人都去申請了分離課稅表示他們如果來申報終所稅的話會超過他的"},{"start":9944.364,"end":9970.264,"text":"二十八所以他選擇二十八也就是說真正的這些可能是退休族沒有其他的收入或者是側欄族或者是純靠股票炒作不是炒作啦投資獲益的人他們大概有五千戶五千戶喔五千戶他是實施稅率他可能原來應該是高於二十八但是他用二十八來繳也就是說我認為啦"},{"start":9971.545,"end":9991.26,"text":"中華民國應該在勞動所得跟資本利得之間找到平衡那顯然我們現在的分離課稅是幫誰減稅幫有錢的人減到稅幫這些沒有其他勞務所得沒有其他薪資所得的人減到稅但是真正的上班族收固定薪水的人減不到稅兩位"},{"start":9993.061,"end":10010.105,"text":"我的問題是這個,所以部長。謝謝,謝謝委員的一個指教。那我想第一個有關鼓勵這一塊部分,我們其實當時在實施出鼓勵採取這個分離課稅或二折一分離課稅這個方式之外,在銀索稅的部分其實也做了調整。總是7到20%。沒關係,部長,這個過程都已經……"},{"start":10012.526,"end":10033.148,"text":"將近五年了。我只是要求說我們是不是從稅收的角度去檢討一下這個分離課稅當然現在是一種平衡的狀態但是我的意思是我們是不是要更去提倡有關勞動所得它可以跟這些資本利得它的比例應該要公平一點"},{"start":10034.97,"end":10048.746,"text":"委員是出於這個就是說對於租稅上面應該要做一些更公平的一些討論我想謝謝委員這方面的提示當然投資28%目前為止大家國人都可以接受但是我要講的是幫勞工階層幫所有的"},{"start":10053.411,"end":10054.552,"text":"財政部跟你們是立場不同嗎?"},{"start":10080.642,"end":10099.948,"text":"你們兩邊常常在吵架,對不對?沒有,沒有吵架,我們溝通得很好。我們也會有一個版本啦,我們版本是希望說參考一些學者的意見,我們希望重點是要讓他逐步的符合社會的需求,可能有一個彈性的調整,而不是像現在幾乎是常態化的狀況。是。"},{"start":10101.708,"end":10127.091,"text":"也許大家可以討論但是我還是贊成的是中華民國政府到底要不要鼓勵長期投資今天很多委員都問了要不要鼓勵長期投資我們有沒有任何的政策引導或工具來鼓勵長期投資目前好像沒有對吧長期投資有任何的優惠或者減稅或者是給他什麼樣的機制嗎副主委"},{"start":10127.85,"end":10153.082,"text":"是目前為止的話其實對於個人的部分的話個人部分其實我們還在還在你們還在努力嘛提撒這個第一部分提撒要不要做嘛現在財政部就是覺得不知道怎麼怎麼核稅嘛所以他們很難做那你儘管會要幫忙啊不會用稅制的這種的讓這個市場上做出一個台灣特色的提撒對好那時間暫停我請一下臺北金融大樓的好時間暫停董事長"},{"start":10158.186,"end":10159.106,"text":"負主委請留步負主委"},{"start":10177.813,"end":10202.525,"text":"我想董事長今天到立法院來非常備受矚目我想今天主要要問的是我們證交所即將在2030年會搬家也就是臺北金融大樓裡面最重要的一個國家級的指標有關金融業的指標可能會撤離臺北金融大樓那我來自臺北市臺北101是臺北市的地上權所以它對臺北很重要我想問一下"},{"start":10205.426,"end":10212.577,"text":"101對於將來證交所幫F4搬走搬到北門去101有什麼意義我們要怎麼樣維持臺北金融大樓的國際地位"},{"start":10214.342,"end":10241.904,"text":"我想如果證交所他真的需要搬走的話呢其實沒有問題耶因為我想台北金融大樓呢我們一直以來在不管是我們拿到的綠建築我們是全世界最高的綠建築我們有這樣子的一個辦公條件跟環境呢其實有非常多優質的企業他們是會想要來進駐的董事長我想還是要強調一個"},{"start":10242.885,"end":10264.182,"text":"它叫台北金融大樓所以要把金融業最頂尖的最相關的國際級的指標最具競爭力的要維持台北101的標示所以副主委你的任務是你當時在當學者的時候主張F4要展併F4現在要搬到同一個地方去了那台北金融大樓你有什麼未來的規劃"},{"start":10267.102,"end":10284.653,"text":"其實我們對於這個證明主要是因為其實我們在櫃買中心或者是旗家族這邊會被趕來趕去所以需要一個自己的家所以目前規劃是在華山把F4把它整個搬過去所以從來沒有考慮過F4搬到伊犁里亞"},{"start":10287.114,"end":10306.3,"text":"北門那邊說全部搬到101你要不要跟101商量一下如果假設國家級的指標都搬到公部門我也沒有意見但是台北101的確是台灣最重要的金融指標所以這個部分其實你們可以慎重再重新考慮一下可以嗎?"},{"start":10307.213,"end":10331.731,"text":"副主委,我想你的構想很好因為非常的亂我也贊成所有的金融單位應該要整合在一起但它要有一個就像紐約一樣你看到的紐約證交所你就知道那裡是最重要的一個核心同樣的證交所搬走以後台北印尼的地位可能會受影響這也是我擔心的地方好不好兩位可以去好好協商一下我們的副主委非常有創意謝謝"},{"start":10334.913,"end":10337.134,"text":"主席、各位立席官員大家好主席有請財政部莊部長是部長"},{"start":10364.152,"end":10382.968,"text":"部長好部長新的會期除了審查預算在這邊本席要先向你探討目前最引起民眾關注的議題還是新清安新清安是為了幫助年輕人圓夢所以祭出了許多的優惠政策"},{"start":10384.269,"end":10411.369,"text":"雖然利益良善但是漏洞百出賴總統強調要爭取青年的支持本席沒有什麼意見因為青年買不起房政府就透過最直接最容易讓選民理解的方式介入也就是用補貼以及放寬信貸範圍的方法來協助青年可以用較寬鬆的房貸政策買房"},{"start":10413.49,"end":10437.931,"text":"簡單直白的介入直接帶動了房價的上漲也衍生出許多的投機行為這部分雖然財政部有做了相關的懲罰措施去預防不肖的投機行為但是我要強調的是信心案帶動房價的上漲以及銀行資金大規模的流入房屋市場那其實這些都讓央行跟金管會很頭痛"},{"start":10438.922,"end":10441.123,"text":"五年之後,本金加上利息的償還壓力會有多少人無法負擔?"},{"start":10461.119,"end":10484.5,"text":"跟委員報告新清安他的政策目的很清楚就協助沒有房屋的人買第一間自住房屋在他收入不是很高的時候政府給予協助然後寬限期給予五年但是這個是一個剛性的需求但是房地產價格上漲絕不會只有這一個因素那新清安我覺得不應該的是運用新清安之名進行投資"},{"start":10484.98,"end":10510.4,"text":"只投機甚至烘台房價這是最不應該的但是不能把新清安給予污名化認為說這個政策不對當然新清安這個部分我們也請航空們第一個就是說在貸錢審核的時候要落實相關的規範同時對於來申請貸款的人要讓他知道也就是說你貸這樣的一個金額那你以後的還款的一個每一期的一個情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":10511.361,"end":10532.31,"text":"另外對於寬限期五年大家都說青年朋友運用五年的寬限期五年後就把它賣掉其實我們統計出來用寬限期五年的只有百分之二十五就四分之一的人甚至有百分之五十一的貸款新金安的人他是沒有使用寬限期因為他也希望他盡快能夠償還本金跟利息"},{"start":10535.271,"end":10557.5,"text":"三年是14%所以這個部分我覺得我們的青年朋友基本上是勤奮而且會珍惜他的第一間房子台灣因為很多人說台灣房價20年來都沒有跌過所以想買就買不用擔心賠錢那所以五年之後有這些想法的人會將用新千安去貸款的房子"},{"start":10558.5,"end":10584.123,"text":"販賣出來所以也許就是說未來有這樣的想法的人把做這樣的行為的到時候房市供過於求那量會很大那房價就會大跌所以不管是哪一種結果都不是我們在制定政策的初衷不是我們的目標那當然我們希望我相信他們也會珍惜這一間房子因為青青安現代政策目標是好的但是在當初在規劃的時候"},{"start":10585.965,"end":10604.802,"text":"當初就沒有說去做過這樣子的可行性的研究跟分析有沒有想過剛剛我說的那一些話財政部在制定這個過程當中那如果說當初也有這些會有這些顧慮那是算不算一種自欺的行為就是說決策錯誤但是還是要做"},{"start":10605.592,"end":10621.884,"text":"委員報告其實我們公股航庫在放貸新清安的時候他們也是非常謹慎的也就是說申請的人他必須要把他的一個收入的情況要讓銀行知道他也會去做評估那我們其實看一下齁這裡面他們買的房子齁在"},{"start":10623.746,"end":10644.24,"text":"購物的總金額在800萬以下的是28%1000萬以下的是45%那1500萬以下是佔了78%所以青年朋友們他在買房子的時候他還是依然依照他的財務的可能性去辦理這個新金安那我相信他們對於買了這個房子也會珍惜我相信在座的許多"},{"start":10645.56,"end":10672.09,"text":"在座的許多人不管是公務或非公務部門都有這樣的一個經驗去買第一間房子然後一直在付貸款我想這個都是可以相信的我們要打草房嘛對不對所以就是不是說單純的數據分析然後這個數據就美化數據然後就忘掉這些隱憂我們是要把這個政策在製作的過程當中有一些不足的有一些錯誤的我們要把它找出來"},{"start":10672.19,"end":10695.519,"text":"是,我想委員也是出於這個提醒我們的過半,謝謝委員。是的,謝謝委員。好,那接下來我再請教就是說我有關注財政部的YouTube那看到財政部在對於政策的宣導拍了很多的短片那包括發票這個還有安養信託但是新簽案影片卻不見了齁"},{"start":10696.799,"end":10719.581,"text":"根據銀行法第72條之二的規定商業銀行在辦理住宅建築還有企業建築的一個放款總額不得超過這個30%滿水位是30%那現在超過警戒值的我剛剛有聽其他委員的詢問我們也有5家航空有超過那所以這種"},{"start":10723.692,"end":10745.56,"text":"為什麼要設這個規定?就是說要防止金融機構因為過度放貸而引發系統性的風險那我要請教說下架影片是不是已經意識到政策火燒央行那房貸的水位已經拉警報所以要趕快下架是不是間接證明說財政部已經不再鼓勵不希望年輕人繼續使用簽案"},{"start":10747.227,"end":10767.474,"text":"新青安的政策目前還是在執行當中那這影片的部分是銀行他們自主營運的事項而且新青安現在一開始推出的時候當然有些宣導那事實上大家都熟能詳了那我想這個部分銀行基於自主去調換他的影片播放的內容我想這個部分是自主經營的一個事項"},{"start":10769.356,"end":10797.171,"text":"部長 這個問題擺出因為我當然希望每一個年輕人都能夠買到自己喜歡的房子那不過絕對不是靠著這樣子說增加貸款沒有上限的這種方式這個不只是會對金融機構產生引發可能引發的系統性的風險我以為是有上限的是有上限的我當然是有上限我說你放寬它的上限放寬它的年限800到100那這樣的情況之下就是會"},{"start":10799.012,"end":10827.437,"text":"剛剛有其他委員有提到我們過去有其他不同的政策來抑制房價的一個過度的一個上漲那但是我們確實看到了最近我們這個萬物起漲尤其是台灣的房價這個也是政策導致的嘛就是清安政策導致嘛所以我們要告訴部長就是說對於這個五年寬限期過後會發生的這種狀況這種風險我連想都不敢想"},{"start":10829.741,"end":10854.835,"text":"就像說總統現在唱白臉我們賴總統唱白臉但是央行要出來搬黑臉財政部要出來搬黑臉那是不是當初在製作這個政策的時候就沒有私立周全反而又波及到無辜的民眾對不對你現在央行限收限收貸款也是去去危害到其他正常需求的這些這些這些無辜的民眾啊對不對"},{"start":10856.881,"end":10874.891,"text":"委員報告我剛已經說過五年申請五年寬限期是要有四分之一啦就二十趴嘛對不對二十那好那我再請教齁產生條例的部分雖然是經濟委員會審查但是也是我們財政部努力推動的一件事那為了推動國內企業化"},{"start":10876.412,"end":10904.132,"text":"智慧轉型108年制定的產創條例第十條之一只要構置智慧機械或5G通訊系統相關的硬體軟體技術或技術服務提供企業投資抵減租稅優惠就要在今年的年底落日了經濟部跟財政部有研議過就是說將支出上限拉高至18億元"},{"start":10907.575,"end":10925.575,"text":"減低率維持不變也就是說企業最高可以用九千萬抵減當年度的因納的營業事業所的稅的稅額那適用年限延長到二零二九年那現在兩個部會已經有共識了那麼請教部長什麼時候要上來立法院審查"},{"start":10927,"end":10947.137,"text":"委員報告這個部分因為是屬於經濟部主管的但是我們知道他在10月4號已經預告了在預告那必須要完成相關的一個一定的流程預告期滿以後看看外界的意見然後再中整要報行政院然後再送到立法院我是希望說盡快送過來是是是謝謝了因為對於企業智慧轉型這樣子的"},{"start":10951.6,"end":10970.716,"text":"產生條例很重要第一個能夠把產業推向智慧化、高效化能夠創造更多的就業機會更多的這種高科技、高薪的就業機會希望能夠順利的在年底能夠在年底前錄音能夠延長好不好?是,謝謝,謝謝委員謝謝部長好,接著我們請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":10992.173,"end":11016.366,"text":"謝謝主席我請財政部莊部長好請部長委員好部長你上任到現在齁有認真的一面啦不過我四個字定義你啦四重而交過去前一任內閣"},{"start":11018.291,"end":11045.917,"text":"大概都拍拍畢業照都走了你是少數難得的那一兩位留下來但是就因為你被留下來你覺得你可能表現很好特殊才能獲得肯定所以才被留任但是我說你恃寵而驕是什麼恃寵而驕衍生而來的就是"},{"start":11047.156,"end":11064.526,"text":"末手成乖、抱殘手缺就這麼簡單我拿稅制來講就好稅制跟你提那麼多次啦說我們有很多不合宜的稅制像娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅、機車貨物稅保健品關稅"},{"start":11073.25,"end":11101.292,"text":"這些都是現在最為社會所詬病的我相信你也很清楚啊跟你談了一個會期啦要求說你針對這五大不合時宜應該調整的稅制去做一些調整你馬上回答說委員這要先找到替代財源那我現在請問你啊"},{"start":11102.981,"end":11127.226,"text":"六年前富人稅富人稅最高級距的所得稅45%富人稅你一點不曉得怎麼搞的可能風大了一點就取消了我要請問富人稅替代財源在哪裡你找到了沒有根本沒有那你不是取消嗎明白"},{"start":11131.585,"end":11139.548,"text":"我是告訴你我還沒有你掌握的份啦我觀察你很久啦你就是那個態度我跟你講齁我跟你講如果你只是要守住這些稅收我一毛多不少你要莫守成規"},{"start":11154.378,"end":11175.707,"text":"這些國產你通通不要動那坦白講你的位置那就負稅署長來做就好啊那就國庫署長來做就好啊甚至那101董事長來做也可以啊101董事長至少他夠年輕有衝勁不是這樣嗎他願意嘗試嘛願意把立法院的聲音"},{"start":11182.882,"end":11209.812,"text":"放進去好好研究不是嗎啊你聽了一整個會期我看你有聽到沒聽到就對了所以我不懂啦我不懂你這是這是什麼樣的心態對你而言我上個會期我說我要送你一個十字架這個十字架橫批就是國產直批就是稅收"},{"start":11211.26,"end":11232.393,"text":"你的那個態度跟你現在表情一樣誰都想要搶走我的十字架你就是你就是這個態度但是我們現在社會需要的是很多創新跟改革比方說稅制你知道嗎那個我們機車有1400萬輛每年增加20萬輛你把機車"},{"start":11241.756,"end":11262.008,"text":"貨物稅平均下去每輛機車我們抽2萬5到3萬的稅金而機車是現在年輕朋友們是上班族、送貨族他們最需要的交通工具而且是他們的生財工具結果"},{"start":11265.561,"end":11269.403,"text":"機車這麼高的現在買部機車隨隨便便7、8萬就是因為3萬塊的稅金這該降你不降"},{"start":11276.121,"end":11298.716,"text":"好了你說找到替代裁員我今天就請問你啊我剛剛講的這些包括運貨稅包括娛樂稅好歹你也找學者專家來研究一下嘛不是這樣嗎你也擬出一下要不然我們怎麼對策要不然我們逐年來講你通通都不"},{"start":11299.895,"end":11321.001,"text":"我跟你講喔,今年的稅金三兆一千你說嘛你自己說要收三兆一千五百億五百億不講啦人家這樣不要說啦,三兆一千億就好機車貨物稅五十億這個對比起來像什麼呢對比起來像你身上帶的三千一百塊錢那五塊錢銅板不是嗎"},{"start":11326.909,"end":11353.579,"text":"五十億就像五塊錢銅板你身上帶了三千一百塊你掉了五塊錢銅板你還懶得撿勒你怕沾到水溝水勒不是這樣嗎弄髒了手所以你根本就是沒有那個心要在稅制上面在你轄管的這麼重大攸關全民福祉"},{"start":11356.448,"end":11380.88,"text":"利益的稅制上面去做調整那其他更不用講我們提案不只我好幾席立委我們提案我們提要對中小企業加薪的部分減稅投一個反對的又是你啦好啦我今天再跟你提另外一個議題你有帶九大公營航空董事長、總經理來嗎我先前在講說"},{"start":11386.089,"end":11412.857,"text":"我對於這薯條三兄弟啊這三大租賃公司他們的惡行惡狀我就不講我講說他跟我們公營行戶借款齁這個部分連審計部的報告裡面人家他也他觀點跟我都一致他在檢討這個我就講裡面的一點就好他說啊"},{"start":11414.684,"end":11436.66,"text":"公營航庫貸款給薯條三兄弟的說利息最低的利息只有0.95%部長你問一下那個九大公營航庫站起來我看一下好不好誰貸款給薯條三兄弟0.95%誰啦哪一家自己舉手"},{"start":11442.753,"end":11468.154,"text":"審計部查的啊審計部的報告時間暫停九大公營航空有沒有來有沒有來有來你站起來好不好你們查一下啊哪一家沒那麼低審計部講的啊所以我才問我在執行的時候我還幫你們講話說欸你們吼"},{"start":11472.594,"end":11492.962,"text":"一、六、五趴這個就已經超低啦為什麼?你借他一、六、五趴鼠條三兄弟去借二十趴給我們需要錢的民眾他們是吸血高利貸耶公營安庫這麼做叫做助紂為虐"},{"start":11494.363,"end":11499.786,"text":"好了現在我說的1.65人家審計部說沒有利率是0.介於0.95啦有啦高一點"},{"start":11508.206,"end":11533.319,"text":"你們借高一點有到4%、5%啦那個部長你怎麼說你回去查查好不好我們這裡也有資料但是到6月在6月的話都是2、2.5左右以上的沒有到0.9的對啦那個我說1.65以後我自己看了資料我查到最低的啦第一銀行是不是還是台銀1.11啦現在審計部的報告你們說0.95"},{"start":11537.677,"end":11554.174,"text":"所以部長你還寫一份我要求署條三兄弟的事情你還寫了一份你是來質疑我是不是你說王委員質詢內容將不同年度之年均年平均動用金額相加起來簡單講啦公營航空借了1450億給"},{"start":11562.838,"end":11584.211,"text":"屬條三兄弟去放高利貸這是事實九大供應安庫你們董事長、總經理都換新了啦我希望你們回去因為這先前不是你們幹的所以你們回去好好檢討這些事情千萬不要助紂為虐好不好九大之後你們幾個站起來其他呢"},{"start":11586.687,"end":11607.583,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八九位齁我手上請坐請坐那個部長你請回來你把我剛講的這些你帶回去好好想一想啦謝謝委員那個金管會來金管今天主委請假齁副主委一樣一樣那個副主委委員好"},{"start":11612.45,"end":11640.987,"text":"講到薯條三兄弟齁那時候你們有到我研究室來我們現在用一個最新的方式啦齁就是說從金融消費保護法那麼從這邊先來做起那就是找薯條三兄弟商量就是請他要接受金融消費保護法的約束法你說要去找他們談給薯條三兄弟一個重量的機會啦"},{"start":11642.591,"end":11666.365,"text":"那結果去談的怎麼樣?是,那我們有先請理事長邀這三家公司到我們會來談那目前為止的話我們的這個執法這邊的也在草擬當中那當然還是會有一些反彈但是我們就跟他講那個這個東西是社會的公益我們要管的目前為止這只是一個過渡將來還有專法"},{"start":11668.206,"end":11680.997,"text":"所以寧願現在進來,我們也會其實讓他們在這個所謂的這個在借款這方面如果他們願意進來,我們也會有一些比較適當的輔導措施我簡單講就是給他重量的機會他現在還拒絕就對了"},{"start":11684.997,"end":11709.719,"text":"那就是非得我們因為我們立法我們現在好幾位我們都在寫融資駐定公司管理法那因為本會期是預算會期我們怕這個案子要通過可能還要再更久一點的時間所以才會妥協說要不然先用這個法去約束他們你最短時間內把這個具體看談判的過程結果怎麼樣給我好不好"},{"start":11711.239,"end":11723.604,"text":"主席不好意思我最後再一分鐘我們現在大的政策方向我們國家要成立我們要作為亞太金融中心這個非常好可是"},{"start":11725.868,"end":11740.718,"text":"那個副主任你記不記得我提過亞太金融中心我們就是希望亞洲各國尤其東南亞大家把錢來到我們台灣投資讓我們台灣來管理可是我當時就點"},{"start":11742.554,"end":11749.078,"text":"我說我們國家的受險資金可動用資金餘額32兆裡面有70%有22兆"},{"start":11758.263,"end":11772.847,"text":"是買國外的債券跟基金我們希望管別人的資金結果自己的錢一百塊裡面七十塊是給別人管然後再成立什麼很奇怪囉我們自己承認說國外的比我們更好"},{"start":11779.687,"end":11804.492,"text":"有人逼我們好我們就不是最好不是嗎那我們找誰來投資我們來在我們這邊做金融營運中心這不是矛盾嗎更何況這70%很多都已經曝顯了戰爭的風險俄國的部分匯率的風險各國都有一些匯率的風險所以我一再的講"},{"start":11805.572,"end":11819.788,"text":"我們應該每一年至少3%到5%趕快引導他們回來投入我們國內需要的公共建設我們國內的公共建設除了看得到的"},{"start":11820.629,"end":11844.265,"text":"社會住宅、交通設施、捷運、鐵路以外我們還有長照我們還有那麼多長照設服機構需要列入公共建設的資金來幫助好不好我希望你把這些話聽下去這是這會期我後續會再跟你們來追蹤的好不好是謝謝委員指教我們一定努力好謝謝"},{"start":11847.509,"end":11875.572,"text":"接著我們請羅明財委員那個質詢來主席一個人出列習慣單好主席請莊部長好部長委員好莊部長終於有見面了是在剛才這三個會期啊"},{"start":11876.414,"end":11904.241,"text":"就是有關財政收支劃分法我們發現這個二十二縣市可以說是富者越富、貧者越貧那長期失衡的關係之下二十五年沒修的財判法這個會期總應該提出版本要趕快來進行的吧不曉得你現在的作業的情況什麼時候要提出每個地方都RO逮捕"},{"start":11906.72,"end":11932.832,"text":"財政委員報告財政法這個部分我們在8月9月已經在開了兩次會在積極的溝通跟協調地方政府對於指標的意見那我想在第一次已經把八十幾個縮減為五十幾個第二次會議的時候獲取更大的一個共識相關的應該納入的有共識部分包含人口數、土地面積、營利事業的營業額等等這都要放進去可是還有三個指標大家有不同的營業額"},{"start":11932.912,"end":11943.134,"text":"主要意見也就是支出節流的一個努力這個部分還有就是污染防治還有再生能源這樣的一個指標要放或不放各地方政府還有不同的意見那除了這個之外指標之外還有有關的權重還有調整係數的部分都還要進一步的討論所以我們認為因為財發法這個部分雖然25年沒有修正但是中央透過統籌分配稅款還有一般性的補助款"},{"start":11961.398,"end":11965.263,"text":"一起在一直在挹注地方的財政同時透過計劃型的補助款讓地方能夠做更好的一個發展其實我們從數據來看的話113年比105年的統籌加上一般補助款已經成長46.7%是明年還會再增加900億沒有什麼嗷嗷待補啊"},{"start":11983.967,"end":11995.734,"text":"來自新北市上新北人口400多萬人最多平均下來我們獲得的補助卻是倒數競賠莫做"},{"start":11998.635,"end":12022.93,"text":"本席值積極地為整個新北市的市民來請命來爭取就這五年以來當然有多增加一點增加一點但是還不足還是不夠你看看侯友宜市長他的規劃裡面每一年必須要多出大概五百億"},{"start":12024.247,"end":12047.129,"text":"雖然經過本席不斷的爭取,你有沒有數據表格?從五年前到現在,新北爭取增加了多少?今年度跟去年比起來,會不會再增加?增加多少?我是希望至少一百多億啦,但是你今年大概金額下來,也是還是不足啊?"},{"start":12048.649,"end":12055.603,"text":"其實一百多億看起來很多但是你二十九區平均下來其實就一點點而已"},{"start":12057.478,"end":12077.335,"text":"我想羅委員來自新北市當然為新北市民來爭取更好的一個財源這個我們都可以理解那當然是我們也想到其他各個選區的委員們同樣也都在為他的選區爭取那也就大家都就他各有利的指標比如說新北市人口最多是沒有錯人口最多但是人口裡面我們將來還會要考慮那人口裡面還要考慮一個結構的部分"},{"start":12081.118,"end":12108.795,"text":"因為部分縣市會說我的人口雖然不是最多可是我裡面65歲的年長者或者是14歲以下的孩童他是要施政成本比較高的但我的結構可能占比比較高譬如說土地面積也是一樣土地面積大的他認為是我的土地面積最大但是部分縣市說我的土地面積雖然不是最大可是我裡面都是農地啊我是填富又停征所以我的地價稅又沒有收入這個部分所以各個地方的"},{"start":12110.075,"end":12125.581,"text":"地方政府以及我相信我們各位的民意代表們都會為他自己的選區來爭取那這個時候我們必須要怎麼樣去平衡去計算一個合宜合理的一個公式部長你就如其所願每個地方真的需要的你就直接給他"},{"start":12126.406,"end":12138.742,"text":"因為中華民國不是沒有錢啦你比如說證交稅光是證交稅今年啦這個現在十月了九月都達標了吧累計下來"},{"start":12140.294,"end":12153.648,"text":"10月是達到我們的預算數了,到9月底9月底已經達到了嗎?已經達到,但是證交稅要看股市的一個成交量,跟股市的成交量很有關係對,所以你遇到問題的話,我們大陸來幫你想辦法比如說當中降稅,當初你們一直想說當中降稅稅收會減少"},{"start":12160.856,"end":12170.099,"text":"但是事實上當從降稅這幾年來你來看看我們的證交稅是增加還減少就去年來說的話是增加多少"},{"start":12171.701,"end":12200.589,"text":"證券交易稅其實每年的情況不一樣跟它的成交量有的時候加有時候減是真的落差幅度是蠻大的譬如說去年來說的話增加了多少去年您是說達成預算數是不是全部的稅收證交稅的部分對證交稅部分我們這個數據可以再查一下我都算過你跟大概當沖實施之前每一年度都增加去年增加多少前年增加多少"},{"start":12201.665,"end":12226.734,"text":"一一二年我們的實徵數是一千九百七十三億比預算數是成長了四百多億比當沖降稅實施之前當沖降稅實施之前他只有成交量只有七百億一千億都不到他的徵交稅的數字就更低了更低了嘛對低多少105年的時候是七百零八億106年是八百九十九億"},{"start":12227.654,"end":12233.938,"text":"實施117年的時候是1011億所以相較之下每一年都多出了300億、600億到108年又只有900億了還不到1000億所以你平均每一年多了大概三五百億這個數字是不是會說那個數字變化很大110年是2700億但是111年只有1700億"},{"start":12256.04,"end":12282.64,"text":"對,所以它的要看市場的一個狀況對,你不能用單一來算你如果用單一的話倒不如你全部加總算起來跟以前比多多少那我們再加一下算一下待會再提供對,這個數字大家都看得到所以你現在的重點不是說你一直各縣市那麼欠缺的情況之下你要補助你就蔣東蔣西那事實上"},{"start":12284.008,"end":12292.155,"text":"在這裡我們有通過很多的預算案比如說國防軍購好了去年軍購增加了多少?買軍火"},{"start":12301.141,"end":12326.725,"text":"不眨眼然後跟這個地方要補助的這些情況就跟蜘蛛屋講半天部長你就當一個樂觀當一個慷慨的財神爺大家有需要沒有需要不會來找你嘛那你真的缺錢你缺錢來找我們委員啊我們不是提了很多的案"},{"start":12328.288,"end":12355.316,"text":"例如說當沖降稅今天要討論啊我為了你都是為了你我把時間延長我提五年還被你們做掉新的主委跟我講說五年所以我就支持他我提五年就你們還是一樣小氣的這個制度小氣的心態又來了啊那不要五年弄三年為什麼不一次性直接"},{"start":12357.551,"end":12361.893,"text":"財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理 ：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率之二及第十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":12381.075,"end":12400.98,"text":"因為你的稅變來變去你如果當中降稅的直接延長多一點他比較好安排有利全世界資金集結在台灣那還有很多很多啊所以我覺得部長你的思維啊應該是站在高崗上"},{"start":12402.179,"end":12409.667,"text":"包括 all of the 8 major public stock banks."},{"start":12409.667,"end":12413.892,"text":"你覺得他們現在的營業狀況,他們的表現你滿意嗎?"},{"start":12413.892,"end":12416.555,"text":"每一位都非常努力,而且表現也不錯。"},{"start":12418.261,"end":12439.603,"text":"對,你都覺得很好其實你應該把思維調整一下為什麼國內的前三大的銀行、金控公司他們的EPS每年可以達到大概10甚至以前還超過10請問巴拉公股銀行裡面表現最好是哪一家"},{"start":12441.704,"end":12470.598,"text":"我們的兆豐也不錯我們的第一也很好兆豐預估今年的EPS有多少去年好了去年來請上好了董事長部長有的思維調整一下因為公股銀行他們薪水跟其他民間比起來差太多了好的人才都不留在公股銀行啦"},{"start":12471.65,"end":12496.24,"text":"董事長你好請問去年你說那個表現最好兆豐去年的EPS是多少我們實際上配的那個大概是一塊半左右現金鼓勵好那去年的話表現最好大概富邦吧富邦金控都一樣跟你們做同樣的業務差不多啦都銀行那去年的富邦他的表現怎麼樣"},{"start":12498.598,"end":12526.517,"text":"負幫配多少我不曉得不過我跟報告委員是這樣子啦雖然說我們都是銀行都是金控但是我們的業務上面還是有很大的差別比如說我們是以銀行為主我們金控是以銀行為主那他們呢大概都是以證券啊以授權為主他們相對銀行的規模並沒有像我們的銀行那麼大好你要講這個講到授權台銀也有授權公司啊那表現怎麼樣證券南加公股沒有證券的"},{"start":12529.79,"end":12536.645,"text":"何庫也有證券啊?台銀也有證券啊?那表現的話跟富邦比起來差多少?"},{"start":12538.693,"end":12565.106,"text":"說真的,如果是以關股的證券公司來講還是以兆豐最大對,你們兆豐有證券那你為什麼不立志贏過富邦?不立志贏過元大?當然那是我們的方向,我們努力的方向對,要努力啦,因為你是第一名我也不忍再講太多啦但是有一點要讓部長知道比如說董事長的薪水你們在這個位置一年大概年薪有多少?"},{"start":12566.96,"end":12587.755,"text":"以你做例子來說的話應該不到一千吧多少不到一千萬那一千你不到一千萬跟民營銀行差很多啦都兩三千萬了那我為什麼要待在公股銀行是不是所以部長這個是多年的結構問題喔"},{"start":12589.437,"end":12608.875,"text":"也請部長好好思考一下重金之下必有永福讓整個公股銀行的績效好好思考怎麼樣來提升你多賺一點然後給民眾的給所有的二十二縣市的不要再支出避季了"},{"start":12609.727,"end":12629.925,"text":"要就給他大方一點,做一個快樂的財神爺好不好?是,中央也要維持一定的財政韌性是,還是要…所以請我們幫你想辦法好,謝謝委員,謝謝委員指教,謝謝好,接著我們請邱志偉委員花言五分鐘"},{"start":12647.062,"end":12668.208,"text":"好 謝主席 邀請金管會副主委金管會副主委委員好 今天審證券交易稅條例第二條及第十二條 我也有提案 我提案怎麼沒寫在你的意見"},{"start":12670.902,"end":12695.749,"text":"我有提案啦我的提案你的意義是怎麼樣遵照十二條那邊我們遵照那只是一個通知啊那個地方沒有我的名字沒有我的名字你到底有我的提案你知道嗎我知道我知道沒有我的名字勒還有做事情也比較認真勒十二條的那個他通知啊或這些你知道我的提案的內容嗎還有另外一條還有另外一條這個"},{"start":12700.044,"end":12725.069,"text":"儘管會做事要精確啊連這個審議的法案每一個人的委員的提案你都有表示意見啊我的提案你就沒有任何意見沒有任何意見有可能是反對捏好啦我們再找一下啦再找一次時間那個請回去再改善改進一下連這個精確性都沒有辦法做到來請那個財政部莊部長"},{"start":12729.485,"end":12740.815,"text":"時間暫停一下時間暫停一下喔部長這個國庫的業務裡面啊這個112年你們稅率稅數剩餘是2796億啊預估113年度呢3年是不是預估啦"},{"start":12756.242,"end":12782.444,"text":"一百一十三年第一個我們的稅收的部分是一定可以達成我也不會去借錢稅數的剩餘是多少那還沒有結束啊大概啦大概喔大概要看稅路要怎麼支出啊我想這個部分這個數字還沒有辦法跟委員報告好啦就是說因為支出的部分在總統這邊你從2016連續七年都是剩餘嘛對不對是的 是的那代表說政府會賺錢還是會省錢"},{"start":12786.868,"end":12811.258,"text":"第一個我們的稅客我們的稅入好然後支出的部分大家也都尊潔支出那這樣的話就會有剩餘是那我就要問你另外一個問題產商條例是經部要修法11條產商條例的內容是什麼它針對一些這個產業包括這些人工智慧啦或者是檢驗檢探相關的產業"},{"start":12813.779,"end":12839.424,"text":"做一些調整那這部分財政部的立場財政部的部分跟經濟部都已經在這個之前都有過非常密切的調整是支持而且目前來說經濟部也已經預告了是支持的現在我們都討論過的另外他有提到說這個提供中小企業第一例優惠的融資貸款畫面"},{"start":12844.297,"end":12868.789,"text":"提供中小企業低利優惠融資貸款我看你們報告裡面你們對中小微企業的復甦扔緩資金需求很多那你們這個部分又增加到九千億這部分有沒有提供給這些微中小型企業更優惠的利率"},{"start":12870.379,"end":12887.709,"text":"報告對我們是有一個方案就是中小企業那個那個榮正新的一個優惠方案那由我們的公股行戶來做承作那在利率的部分他們也會給你協助對利率比一般的貸款更為優惠嗎應該是我想他們都在對"},{"start":12888.749,"end":12892.15,"text":"現在產業的這個調整在中國的企業慢慢這個到東南亞到其他地方去那這個國有銀行現在在這個中國的分行件數大概有幾件25件"},{"start":12919.882,"end":12921.043,"text":"最多分行是哪一家銀行?"},{"start":12932.472,"end":12948.521,"text":"我問這個問題是說希望你們調整一下這個分行是不是有設立的必要性跟普選程度的這個影響評估這個部分當然是要考慮而且在屬境外設分行也要經過金管會的同意啊該撤的時候就在撤是"},{"start":12949.502,"end":12978.053,"text":"所以不能像過去一樣這個渔沃峰在這個西晉的時候這個設立分行那你現在這個政策轉移的時候中國變成高度這個震驚風險的國家這個時候我們的國有銀行是設立分行它的必要性跟這個未來怎麼去處理啊當然這個部分一定要審慎的部分做風險的控管謝謝委員的提醒國有地它禁止出售對不對大面積國有地禁止出售大面積的不再出售"},{"start":12978.973,"end":13004.898,"text":"市有地不算是國有地,對不對?市有地它是可以公開去標授,對不對?市有地他們有他們的自治條例去處理,然後還有土地法國有地廣義來說市有地也算是國有地嘛那你可以設定一些標準,你現在有收受這個土地供應的這個因素啊"},{"start":13005.638,"end":13006.459,"text":"財政部有相關的作法"},{"start":13035.4,"end":13060.112,"text":"根委員報告你指的用設定地上的權還是用什麼方式或是在一段時間禁止出售事由土地的處理第一個是屬於自治事項第二個土地政策的主管機關在內政部財政部沒有這個權責去約束縣市政府處理它的縣市有的財產這個部分根委員就說明是是內政部主管是那最後一個問題金融兵推"},{"start":13061.552,"end":13074.083,"text":"金融兵推是您主持的嗎?不是不是不是不是金融兵推不是我們主持的金融兵推是年度的這個例行性的計畫還是因應特殊事件而不定期的計畫?跟委員報告"},{"start":13077.085,"end":13099.415,"text":"因為有一個全民防衛動員準備法的規定那裡面我們有一些定期要做的一些事項那財政部的部分是財力的部分那這個部分都是一個例行性的部分那有關金融兵推的部分我們是配合國防部的一個整體規劃來做它包含有關的一些事包含外匯金融處置這個是涉及到央行跟金管會等等"},{"start":13100.555,"end":13122.716,"text":"是年度性的計畫還是因應特定事件?年度性的會做一次吧如果特殊事件發生或因應特殊事件可能會未來預期可能一些特殊事件發生你們有沒有相關的專案兵推?這個部分是由國防部來規劃的是國防部來規劃?對對對對謝謝謝謝委員是謝謝"},{"start":13127.025,"end":13151.954,"text":"好,謝謝邱志偉委員那接著我們請陳佩儀委員花言謝謝主席那有請財政部經管會還有法務部,謝謝好,財政部經管會還有法務部代表委員好是,部長好,午安"},{"start":13154.166,"end":13178.6,"text":"我時間有限但是部長我想要快速跟您討論關於兒少在你們的相關的主管業務當中到底能夠為我們台灣的兒少做些什麼事情來下一頁這個是相關的詐騙的廣告然後其實我們刑事警察局已經開始有非常多的作為整個行政院也啟動非常多詐騙的業務我想部長您非常清楚那我們來往下一頁"},{"start":13179.5,"end":13197.595,"text":"那做了這麼多詐騙的事情我要談的是其實我們發現很多的個案或者是很多的陳情人我們發現是相關的金融素養的不足我們來看下一頁可是我知道其實大家都做了非常多的事情金管會今年在五月公佈這個普惠金融的衡量指標"},{"start":13198.215,"end":13214.746,"text":"我們台灣的表現數字其實非常好不管是ATM或者是我們擁有銀行帳戶或是使用電子化支付也就是說連我自己都覺得我身邊好像每一個人都在這個完整的金融體系底下有被照顧到可是如果離開都市地區我們來看一下"},{"start":13215.626,"end":13232.928,"text":"那我知道你們其實有相關你們去做相關的研究你們到國際上去參加相關的會議下一頁那在會議當中其實你們自己也提出或是在國際的很多研討會上提出我們有這麼完整的金融體系跟金融服務但也可能相對的風險就高以上這個論述部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":13238.18,"end":13265.3,"text":"但是當風險高的時候我們要回過來看人民的素養跟知識起點在哪裡我們做所有的詐騙要從源頭開始嘛 對不對不然所有的第一線的行員連我自己要去領錢他都要問我很久那很久到我都感動我都覺得他很怕我被詐騙這樣可能我年紀看起來有點大但沒關係我覺得這都是好事但是讓我們第一線的工作人員我們回過來看教育面向我們可以做什麼來看下一頁"},{"start":13266.536,"end":13287.297,"text":"其實我知道公股銀行真的有非常努力在做提升金融素養的事情我不會說沒有包含你們走入社區配合金管會辦金融知識宣導活動辦了產學合作做了弱勢賠利你們甚至還辦了非常多說明會跟講座也就是大家都知道各方各面要提升民眾的素養跟知識下一頁"},{"start":13288.038,"end":13303.266,"text":"好,那你們還做了更深入喔跟大專院校合作下令您讓大專院校學生去參觀銀行金管會還有做Podcast很好跟上時代還做了演員會做了論壇做了各式各樣的廣宣部長如果從我剛剛一路講下來你覺得我們少了什麼"},{"start":13306.311,"end":13310.012,"text":"謝謝委員把他整理得這麼完整,也就是委員一開始就您把他整會整的,然後我想您剛剛也提到一開始就是說兒少的部分,也就是說孩子他還在至少小學生小學、國中、高中就讓他要有一些觀念,那這樣他可以更清楚"},{"start":13325.596,"end":13352.079,"text":"對,然後我覺得這是可以努力的方向好,那我們來看一下如果部長你也認同我說法是對為什麼要把法務部的同仁請出來呢我跟部長分享也跟副主委分享一個困境好,我們下一頁我說往下扎根的意思就是如同部長您說的小學生、國中生、高中生他們在不同的學習階段其實都需要累積不同的金融素養跟金融知識不管他未來有可能會因為沒有這些知識不小心變成詐騙的幫手、車手"},{"start":13353.76,"end":13381.51,"text":"或者是他自己就變成受害人我想部長跟副主委你一定認同其實我們可以看得出來過去聯邦銀行、台北富邦銀行、中國信託、玉山銀行還有國泰、世華、點點點、非常多銀行他們都會辦暑假、寒假的活動但是很多都是親子勿動然後要收費我知道在公股銀行有但是相對少例如說我們找出來兆豐銀行、華南銀行、和庫都有辦過類似的活動彰銀也有主推一些課程"},{"start":13382.33,"end":13400.698,"text":"那我請法務部出來我也想要請法務部的人回答我我們在收集到非常多跟詐騙有關跟金融犯罪有關的青少年個案當中我們常常可以在後續的收案當中發現他們是基本的知識不足導致於他們不小心成為犯罪的一份子對不對法務部這邊可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":13404.88,"end":13423.852,"text":"抱歉,報告委員,那個具體打詐的業務,那個我們法務部最近是有...沒有沒有,我沒有要問你打詐,因為我時間有限,我要尊重主席,我要準時下來但是我要說,是不是我們在收容很多犯罪的個案當中都發現,如果基本知識是足的,素養是足的,他們比較不容易走入這個犯罪的行列,我這個論述可以成立嗎?"},{"start":13429.176,"end":13438.564,"text":"所以我們可不可以積極地要求公股銀行必須承擔其金融素養普惠金融落實於兒少的政策"},{"start":13439.665,"end":13464.059,"text":"不管是辦剛剛說的下令營、課程我認為必須要更積極擔負起這個社會責任部長你覺得呢?我覺得委員這個方向很好第一個就是說第一個避免自己被騙第二個不小心落入變成犯罪的一個幫手我想這個部分是有確實有必要尤其青少年現在接觸的因為手機很方便嘛接觸訊息很多但是有的時候正確或是不正確有的時候"},{"start":13464.659,"end":13484.314,"text":"不知道分辨,我覺得這個部分是可以去加強的。主席,不好意思,再幾分鐘。好,那這個沒有錯,那我們還接觸到有非常多的民間團體他們是積極在協助而哨的。不管是從社會福利的角度,從家庭安全的角度,從課業輔導的角度可是從來可能在金管會的角度或是在財政部的角度,在公股銀行的角度"},{"start":13484.654,"end":13504.117,"text":"都不認為自己在這個財政主管機關是有需要跟這些民間團體接觸的所以我剛剛講不管是進入社區辦課程、辦活動更積極的跟當地的兒少團體或相關的組織甚至是跟學校主動發起深入的夏令營也好、課程也好當然園遊會是一個很簡單的活動可是我也要說啦"},{"start":13504.497,"end":13530.758,"text":"許多委員會可能就留於形式大家玩一玩可能就忘記但如果我們又可以更積極規劃夏令營、冬令營然後深度的課程讓孩子們及早學習金融素養那讓普惠金融做得更好我相信我們台灣的詐騙事情絕對會減少得更多我們有沒有機會在三個月內拜託相關部會研究這個事情然後我們積極地來推動那當然你們得去找教育部討論這個我相信是我們後續也會協助因為我在教育文化委員會"},{"start":13532.534,"end":13533.214,"text":"主席,快幾分鐘,36秒。好。"},{"start":13555.35,"end":13580.572,"text":"在董事長走來的路上我就先說好了不要耽誤後面委員的時間其實我在立法院一直倡議有一個事情非常的重要董事長你也是母親我相信你一定可以用母親的角度來看待我們台灣更多的政策是以兒少為主體為服務的主體為思考的主體我相信101在發揮企業責任身上應該也可以從這個角度試著來做一些發想"},{"start":13581.172,"end":13595.438,"text":"是委員跟您報告一下其實我們有在做很多的環境教育的部分那我們跟附近的國小也有合作然後會帶著這些小朋友先來認識整個環境整個對於環保的議題對於綠建築的議題還有碳排放這些議題"},{"start":13600.78,"end":13625.042,"text":"這些聽起來真的都很棒但是董事長我想幫更多的孩子許願周邊的社區的孩子我相信他們對於101絕對不陌生可是有沒有更多不在這個社區或是偏鄉那我相信更多以兒童為主體我們希望後續可以看到101有更多的作為我們在兒少服務方面主席卡起來好那我們辦公室也會再積極跟各部會討論謝謝主席不好意思耽誤時間謝謝好謝謝裴儀委員接著請陳益臻委員花言"},{"start":13633.848,"end":13634.109,"text":"財政部、國庫署、官務署"},{"start":13641.889,"end":13665.242,"text":"還有哪一個單位?管務署部長,夏可欣本期開始擔任召委我知道你公務繁忙但是我們就開始排財化法的修正案本期尊重行政院及貴部可能沒有辦法或是不願意或是覺得沒有必要提出院版的財化法的"},{"start":13665.842,"end":13687.71,"text":"修正草案這個本期表示尊重不過因為我們這裡是立法院也不是行政院立法局沒有貴院沒有大院的版本沒有這個貴部的版本我們一樣會進行修法這個應該要有一點心理準備對於這個二十幾位委員所提出的這個版本請你們也是仔細的大概要認真的研究一下那我想請問這個國庫署"},{"start":13689.651,"end":13690.672,"text":"國組推出優質認證九類產業發展計畫109年到112年、112年到114年"},{"start":13703.834,"end":13709.059,"text":"優良酒類認證標誌有三個目標提高優質酒類認證的標誌及認證酒類知名度第二個提升國產酒類、國產酒品的國際競爭力第三個優化中小型業者的營運體質這是你們三大目標對吧是是嗎是有答到嗎"},{"start":13730.143,"end":13755.316,"text":"我們這幾年都有在協助我們辦了很多活動都有在協助我們優質酒類認證那你覺得成果怎麼樣在協助國產酒品的產業發展怎麼樣呢在國內啊或者外銷在國內的部分我們今年就有結合一些餐飲業我不是要知道內容我是要知道是結果"},{"start":13756.415,"end":13767.341,"text":"結果的部分越來越好嗎就是主要就是讓各界知道我們優質酒品在整個哪些酒品在你們推動下我們國產酒類出口的這個成效越來越好嗎"},{"start":13768.626,"end":13771.769,"text":"在你們努力的推動之下國餐局的外銷數量不增反減從101年1280萬公升108年到現在"},{"start":13786.542,"end":13807.219,"text":"一百一十一年,這是到一百一十年的整個經濟部的資料,經濟部就有資料不銷繁檢,現在剩下一千一百萬公升國產酒的國內市場佔有率年年下滑,從六十點六這樣像溜滑梯一樣五十八點一、五十三點一、五十一點八到四十八點五,到一百一十二年,這是去年"},{"start":13807.899,"end":13819.049,"text":"所以在你們的努力推廣之下所以你們努力的幫助國產酒做很多計畫但是你們這個認證方案在努力之下"},{"start":13821.874,"end":13842.749,"text":"國產酒的銷路越來越差在國內市場也下降在外銷市場也下降是在外銷的部分因為其實可能受限於一些區域環境的變化所以什麼叫區域環境區域環境是國際市場共同有的比如說我們有一些是像有一些是銷到大陸去那大陸那邊目前就有一些"},{"start":13843.449,"end":13870.006,"text":"大陸市場整體下降大陸的酒廠也是下降啊一樣啊但是我們的比例在國內部分我們是那外國進來為什麼我們的國產酒市佔率也越來越低呢你了解嗎你說外銷整個區域變化好那國內市場人家進來我們這裡我們的佔比也越來越低啊所以說不管在國內或者在國外我們都一直在退步啊這個例子很明顯啊這個數據會說話"},{"start":13873.391,"end":13891.129,"text":"國工署要努力的輔導我們國內的中小企業這個廠商對於這個部分所以請你在一週內提出優質認證9類產業發展報告方案你的這個成效你要怎麼樣讓它更進步我們現在看到說是越來越好跟全世界比賽"},{"start":13893.191,"end":13907.639,"text":"有沒有問題啊?是,可以,謝謝看這個,然後你們對金酒公司的幫助也實在很少你這個特別看一下金酒公司是我們國內這個在酒品裡頭的製造商那每年我們上繳25到30億以上的菸酒稅這個應該數據沒有問題吧?"},{"start":13912.802,"end":13932.757,"text":"我算了一下我們在國內的金酒公司在國內的白酒市場大概占到7乘5、7乘8所以我們繳的稅很多但是你們一年才我們這四年才給我們35萬的這個行銷這個發展的這個相關的這個幫助這占比也太低了吧以我們的貢獻度來講你們對我們的幫助也太少了吧"},{"start":13934.132,"end":13950.218,"text":"公務員報告這個是金酒公司他來申請也就是說他如果來申請你的意思是說金酒公司申請不夠就對了是不是?他們申請了7個場次然後就是說從過去到現在你意思是說金酒公司可以申請多一點你們會支持就對了是吧?我們會在我們的預算範圍內來處理"},{"start":13951.878,"end":13969.207,"text":"預算範圍內我們交25億到30億你給我們35萬這個有給跟沒給是不是也是差不多對我們的幫助實在是太小那你把這個寫進來如果是金九沒有申請我回去我當然會問金九公司未來可能委員也可以支持我們在這部分的補足預算我們請那個關務署這個"},{"start":13973.154,"end":13995.82,"text":"首長,部長您也聽一下,我看到這個國際上世界各國各地啊,我們看到去新加坡啊,去這個韓國啊,去哪裡?日本啊,我們先去日本嘛,我們看到各國有亞洲,這也是亞洲國家啊,美國也好,歐美啊,這個不管是車子,不管是進口車或是他們產製車,都非常的價錢比台灣便宜很多啊。"},{"start":13997.199,"end":14013.031,"text":"您們不覺得像以國內的這個以我們的國民來講房貸的壓力很大那買車子如果又造成一個很重大的壓力事實上也是增加人民的負擔啊我看了一下我們這個買車真的是萬萬歲啊應該要做一個本期做一個表你看進口車2000CC以下17.5%的關稅25%的貨物稅"},{"start":14017.034,"end":14027,"text":"五趴的營業稅加起來一台車兩千西西下要增五十四點二趴的稅兩千西西以上要增六十點四趴的稅好這是進口車國產車的部分呢兩千西西以下"},{"start":14028.137,"end":14052.293,"text":"一台車要課25%的貨物稅5%的營業稅等於是31.2%那國產車2000cc以上的30%的貨物稅5%的營業稅一台車要徵36.5%的稅等於是不管進口或國產車每一台車都至少要三成以上的稅負交給我們的國家我們國家需要這樣對付對我們的人民嗎當然署長你是關稅我先我請問那個部長這個買車萬萬稅這個部分"},{"start":14056.89,"end":14071.581,"text":"跟委員報告第一個關稅的部分關稅的部分我們是加入WTO的時候就有關稅減讓的承諾然後在10年內我們其實原來更高所以當時承諾就是17.5的關稅那是對外最低的承諾吧我不是很說最低嗎那貨物稅呢貨物稅的部分"},{"start":14075.443,"end":14081.385,"text":"為了讓我們的淨零減碳的一個政策目標所以我們對於電動車的電動車、貨物稅都是免徵那是鼓勵這個我支持這個部分我支持這個沒問題我沒有在問你電動車我支持這個部分"},{"start":14093.229,"end":14121.739,"text":"國安稅早年徵荒稅的目的是因為有點像是有點像奢侈稅嘛說這個比較特種的稅嘛說這個可能那時候早年這個那個開車可能是一個比較奢侈的事民國七十幾年金門開始有車我家金門開始有車是民國七十幾年啊金門還比較晚啊台灣當然比較早但是那時候車子比較少嘛現在車子是一個基本的交通工具啊尤其不要你不要說在台北市這種比較都會去像在比較不是都會去的地方沒有經營的地方很多家庭也都是需要車子嘛幾乎"},{"start":14122.915,"end":14151.924,"text":"我不敢說人人啦 但基本上每一家都是需要車子那給國人這麼高的這個關稅我先不跟你談關稅關稅涉及到國產跟進口這個我看那個車稅公會也有提到那貨物稅的部分呢 貨物稅不能減呢為什麼我們百姓要買車要買這麼貴比韓國、日本、新加坡還有那個美國啦 新加坡很貴一點韓國、日本 而新加坡收入高我們收入又沒有高人家很多我們要繳這麼 我們已經要百姓要承擔這麼重的這個房貸了還要承擔很重的車貸"},{"start":14153.184,"end":14177.221,"text":"這個不用改嗎?我想貨物稅的部分我們現在是引導消費者能夠往電動車的方式去採購。這個我也支持,電動車我也支持。那還沒有買電動車之前,現在如果還有其他車,我也支持電動車。這個是沒有違背的,沒有衝突的。那現在這個貨物稅的部分,讓老百姓可以買到便宜的車子不好嗎?"},{"start":14178.516,"end":14194.842,"text":"有什麼困難?對你們稅稅影響很大嗎?我剛剛看別的網友寫貨稅,整個貨稅稅也不是說那麼那麼多,對你們稅稅影響很大嗎?車的部分影響這麼大嗎?你不能全免,你至少降嘛,這個有困難嗎?"},{"start":14196.207,"end":14224.812,"text":"我想這個部分貨物稅整體應該要跟整個稅制來搞好你不要告訴我整體貨物稅我只告訴你車子的貨物稅我只請問你車子的貨物稅現在25嘛25的話可以降多少你們有沒有去研究過可以降多少25%你看2730%那國產車也要25跟30這個就算你不能全免也可以考慮降稅吧我想這個部分應該要整體來考量Jay哥你的考慮是什麼不能降的原因是什麼"},{"start":14225.851,"end":14242.37,"text":"不能這樣的原因你現在是覺得不能這樣嗎?我說可以考慮貨物稅的部分我們談過不是講全面跟整體的綠色能源綠色稅制會要做我一直跟你強調電動車那部分我完全支持你不用跟我談你告訴我說一般的車子"},{"start":14243.746,"end":14264.053,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14264.173,"end":14265.474,"text":"提出書面報告是不是容許我們一個月內?一個月內是不是有點太久?"},{"start":14283.18,"end":14306.042,"text":"沒關係齁,兩個禮拜可以吧,算數而已嘛兩個禮拜算一下,兩個禮拜提出來汽機車稅制檢討及改革方案書面報告我知道在這個部分其實不分藍綠的委員都有提出這個有關車價實在太高的問題我這個想法其實是想法很簡單如果你提出來以後你們堅決不改我們也不需要你們同意才需要改我們一樣會提案我也會請民進黨的委員一起來提案我想民眾也會支持這個車稅這個貨物稅降的這個"},{"start":14308.404,"end":14318.951,"text":"所以你們要往可以更改的方向去思考如果你一樣鐵板一塊對不起我們一樣做我們應該做的事情好謝謝委員謝謝部長好謝謝謝謝陳一貞委員接著我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請部長跟金管會好部長跟金管會稱呼主委"},{"start":14342.27,"end":14368.88,"text":"委員好謝謝部長我們看到國內的這個投資詐騙的案件這麼多而且那成長是驚人那根據警方的統計數字裡頭來顯示去年的詐欺犯呢那翻身數是以投資詐欺是最多那佔所有的詐騙的是31.13比上年度是增加了5000多件這個還是險性喔"},{"start":14371.661,"end":14400.079,"text":"引信的還不知道多少所以它的成長幾乎是翻倍那麼其中最嚴肅的就是65歲以上因為投資詐騙受害的更是最多而且一直在累進增加在這樣子的情況之下在我們財政部你認為你有什麼因應的這個方案來防止這個試詐讓大家可以試詐具備有試詐防詐的這個能力"},{"start":14401.158,"end":14416.727,"text":"部長跟委員報告當然第一個我們會在我們的行員的部分增加關懷也就是對於這個年長者有時候做高額的匯款的事要多問一些讓他們知道這是現在就已經在做所以我們也有相當的一個成效攔阻成功的也蠻高的蠻高但是我們的數字是往上升所以要不要再精準方案策略"},{"start":14429.774,"end":14456.052,"text":"另外對於那些客戶在開戶的時候也要確實執行KYC也就是說對客戶因為避免這些詐騙的人開帳戶、開人頭戶所以這個部分也要特別注意這個除了注意以外我們有什麼應對因為本期要跟你討論的是如果這個帳號它已經有嫌疑你們能不能連線法務部這些司法檢調單位"},{"start":14458.333,"end":14484.344,"text":"對,因為有很多很明顯一看就知道是詐騙的這個人頭戶對,所以我們也會參加財經公司所建置的約定帳號的一個揮名單的通報也就是說在這個部分銀行之間都會有相關的對於這種揮名單比較有可疑的帳戶都會提早做一個警示對,揮名單我們要怎麼去預防因為預防重於治療所以這個課題我再給部長你再去精準方案"},{"start":14485.104,"end":14506.801,"text":"對,這一定要一直精進的一直精進,你把書面資料給本席因為我們一直精進,但是數字是一直增加我們也不願意只有一句話道高一尺,魔高一丈這個也是漏氣至極所以我們是政府我們更應該要去精準這個方案你把精準方案給本席好嗎好的,我們再提一個報告給你你多久可以給本席"},{"start":14507.701,"end":14511.884,"text":"我們是不是一個月內給我一個月給本席我們要讓他們試詐防詐好不好這個太恐怖了那接下來本席要請教金管會那部長你請回來虛擬通貨的商業同業公會他們成立"},{"start":14523.67,"end":14550.59,"text":"在這樣的情況之下虛擬資產保管也事半業務所以本席要請教你們參考了國際的經驗你也要提升了整個風險管理跟資訊的安全的標準這是最基本的我們也為了要跟世界接軌我們也必須要這麼做但是本席要請教虛擬資產的保管的主題是業務你預計要什麼時候會上路"},{"start":14552.628,"end":14572.303,"text":"是,那在這個部分的話這個事辦,那麼明年初就上路明年初上路,那據本席了解好像很多的這個銀行跟券商他不是很熱情的願意參與,有這回事嗎?有這回事嗎?因為你已經明年初了,現在十月了,有沒有把握?沒問題"},{"start":14576.181,"end":14588.454,"text":"其實我們已經有人洽 兩家嘛兩家他們已經願意開始做因為畢竟是一個新型的一個業務他們有時候比較沒有接觸過但是我們從頭示範開始就一個新型明年的話什麼時候會正式上路"},{"start":14596.903,"end":14609.55,"text":"其實我們今年第四季齁今年第四季的時候就是現在呢我們就會推出虛擬資產的一個主題業務示範對所以是說呢那我們在這個部分齁明年就是正式上路就是示範嘛什麼時候正式上路嘛"},{"start":14610.686,"end":14628.456,"text":"因為我們要看看業者在這示範的過程中因為我們是滾動式檢討就是我們要往前推因為畢竟在這個部分那你總是有一個KPI的指標跟目標跟軌道在那裡嘛本期再一次請教現在示範那什麼時候會正式你們的目標啦"},{"start":14633.188,"end":14650.139,"text":"其實我們的目標就是明年正式上路明年1月正式上路好 我們就朝這個目標你不要緊張我們就在聽你的政策然後我們會去追蹤接下來本期最後一個議題請教IMB的平台詐騙金管會鼓勵銀行跟P2P"},{"start":14654.542,"end":14677.988,"text":"的這個平台業者去進行合作所以目前為止你們宣稱的五家合作銀行那麼在8月7號的時候監察院提出有四家是有狀況的沒有依照你們目前的這個指標流程所以本席要請教我們為了管控房子洗錢以及治安的風險你要"},{"start":14680.109,"end":14702.861,"text":"若實將P2P的這個業務納入銀行的內控那你目前也已經行文給銀行工會請他們請銀行來做,是不是啊?是那所以你們是不是有具體的指標跟SOP給他們因為你五家監察院就給你提出四家有狀況欸"},{"start":14704.813,"end":14729.673,"text":"怎麼會如此呢?請說明因為目前為止我們是透過銀行工會我們也想要來組成一個就是鼓勵他們成立一個所謂的工會但是因為他們P2P業者彼此之間的業務的關係或什麼東西目前為止這個工會籌組的自律現在還在進行當中就是因為在溝通平台根本還沒有辦法去溝通所以本席提出這個議題這個問題你一直"},{"start":14733.916,"end":14737.793,"text":"一道指令下去給沿南工會沿南工會要依據什麼?"},{"start":14738.942,"end":14766.999,"text":"要依據什麼?所以本席具體建議你必須將具體的指引跟SOP你要給銀行公會這個是你金管會必須要去做嫁接橋樑的這個重點工作嘛 對不對是 那我們會再跟銀行公會持續保持聯繫你多久時間趕快跟他們去討論人家收到你一張文不知道怎麼做你多久時間你具體的SOP流程跟指令可以告訴本席"},{"start":14768.1,"end":14776.189,"text":"因為我們現在跟銀行公會那邊溝通是順暢但是P2P YES他們公會一直組起來當然啊所以你必須要連結得上才有結果啊你要不要去溝通"},{"start":14781.238,"end":14804.4,"text":"你督導單位啊那大批的平台怎麼跟你們去連結啊去討論啊對不對你趕快去做好不好你也要讓銀行公會銀行團他能夠有一個指標有一個SOP嘛對不對是不是你要不要去做會做多久時間會有一個方向出來告訴我們"},{"start":14807.823,"end":14809.303,"text":"蔡義儀委員沒到,我們接著請洪孟楷委員執行花言"},{"start":14842.816,"end":14845.58,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們莊部長好我們請莊部長"},{"start":14853.083,"end":14878.439,"text":"委員好 莊部長好時間有限喔直接切入重點當然很多的委員都一直很關心在這個會期要討論財務收支劃分法那卓龍泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然講是說現行的版本就是最棒的版本換言之如果說假設我們接下來進入到實質的這個竹條審查的部分的話財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本是不是這樣"},{"start":14880.905,"end":14903.75,"text":"跟委員報告財化法這個事情25年沒有修正您就知道它的一個困難度在這邊那卓院長意思就是說如果沒有討論出一個第一個大家有共識而且是一個非常完善的一個版本的話那以現行的版本來做執行以現行的法條來做執行第一我們透過財化法然後統籌分配稅款一般性補助款"},{"start":14904.25,"end":14926.378,"text":"還有計劃型的補助館來推動第一個挹注地方的財政同時也讓重大建設能夠在跨區域的來做推動我想這個部分主要是這樣子這大家都知道啊現行法令不就這樣做但是重點在於是說就是沒有做到嘛所以才會25年來沒有修正來部長我先請教左榮泰院長講是說現行的版本是最棒的版本你認同嗎"},{"start":14928.975,"end":14936.4,"text":"鐵板一塊都不動了現行的版本最棒版本它最高級喔我們學英文知道嘛比較級最高級最高級代表就是"},{"start":14937.796,"end":14958.997,"text":"沒有其他比它更高了你認同這句話嗎第一個在沒有更完善的版本提出之前現行的版本在行政院在推動上是最有把握的我們現在就是這也是過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多的版本以及我們不管是黨團不管是委員版本就是認為是說希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嗎"},{"start":14961.688,"end":14986.895,"text":"所以現在部長所以兩個部分第一看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話我沒有不認同啊那你認同第一個我跟委員剛剛報告過就是說在沒有更完善更好合理的版本我們現在就是要找出更好更完善嘛過去25年您剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財化法"},{"start":14988.325,"end":15010.422,"text":"你知道25年五次的時候就已經討論過非常多但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成包括當時時任的台南市長賴清德現在的賴總統2012年他講說不要從台北看天下不要獨厚台北各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的媽媽嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒然後要給他足夠的養分"},{"start":15016.738,"end":15023.029,"text":"2017年18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財化法那到現在勒?"},{"start":15027.986,"end":15045.757,"text":"部長我現在只是比較明確的確定就是說我們現在因為各黨團也都針對說實務的狀況以及縣市來開公聽會因為我們的召委員很負責任嘛開了兩次公聽會嘛那各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了所以說我相信也會有在精進跟討論空間不是鐵板一塊"},{"start":15046.678,"end":15067.629,"text":"那一樣的道理現在鐵板一塊是誰是財政部耶是行政院耶因為有黨團的版本有委員的版本但是至始至終千呼萬喚使不出來就是財政院就是行政院的版本所以我們現在想要問的是當接下來進入到竹條審查才化法修法的時候行政院會不會有版本"},{"start":15070.606,"end":15096.817,"text":"財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的"},{"start":15098.22,"end":15124.469,"text":"部長,就是因為簽這個審券廣,你一直講,我想說成功的人找方法,失敗的人找藉口啊你一直在講一堆藉口,我們也知道這些問題啊,你講的我不會不知道本席身為區域的民意代表,我很清楚就像我們一直講到是說六都裡面新北市,我們就很委屈啊如果說這要講六都來講,財化法的這個分配稅款"},{"start":15125.805,"end":15141.38,"text":"新北市你沒有說是最後一名可是如果說除以400萬的人口除以我們的土地面積我們真的是最後啊我們真的是名落孫山啊那一樣的道理我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多我們只要求公平"},{"start":15142.381,"end":15169.398,"text":"那一樣嘛拉回來本期現在只要想講的這是一個觀念問題我想今天那麼多我們的金融相關的負責人在這邊要看的是部長的態度啊部長有沒有肩膀有沒有態度就是說當我們現在一直講是說問題在這邊可是我們真的要面對了25年沒有修了大家也認為是說與時近近甚至財政部講是說我們要討論一個符合時宜可長可久的版本"},{"start":15170.814,"end":15195.113,"text":"那沒有最好只有更好啊那在沒有最好只有更好的情況下我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊當我們討論到財化法的修法的時候財政部到底拿不拿得出版本我們現在不是真的開會已經討論了嗎8月9月都在討論啊所以當委員會就可能陳玉珍召委或是我們另外召委排修法的時候財政部一定會有版本出來一起討論"},{"start":15201.282,"end":15219.747,"text":"財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊因為我們已經告訴為什麼會沒有版本的原因我們的報告也已經提給財委會了我們的報告的分析報告非常清楚啊部長,如果說是這樣的態度的話那我就覺得是說你過去這25年白混了"},{"start":15221.071,"end":15226.813,"text":"賴清德總統2017年、2018年當任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法白混了說實在話這還要解釋是不是部長"},{"start":15241.017,"end":15265.317,"text":"身在其位謀其政為什麼今天我會特別我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨啊但是因為你今天是財政部長所以我當然會尖銳的問你就是因為財政部長在這一刻你就要負起相關的責任25年來沒有還是你的想法就是說反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久我就拖過啦換言等我安全下狀的時候這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長"},{"start":15266.514,"end":15288.702,"text":"跟委員報告負責任的話就是這樣的做法嗎因為提出好的版本才是負責任的做法所以我們就是因為提出好的版本才是所以現在我們才在講說你有沒有版本嘛就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜可長可久的版本所以你們要拿出辦法如果拿不出辦法就變成是我們有我們委員其他的版本"},{"start":15289.983,"end":15312.117,"text":"財政部你就是一昧的阻擋你就是不想進步不想改革那沒有問題啊就讓國人看吧我們一直都在做是謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝孟凱那接著我們請那個鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員那還有下去是張家俊張家俊張家俊委員接著"},{"start":15313.598,"end":15327.652,"text":"政政權委員、政政權委員、政政權委員不在高軍樹梅、高軍樹梅、高軍樹梅委員不在林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在接著我們請吳立法委員質詢謝謝主席、有請部長"},{"start":15342.423,"end":15348.679,"text":"委員好部長好我們有看到行政院已經是第三次提案延長這個當沖降稅"},{"start":15351.85,"end":15371.89,"text":"我們也希望這樣的一個延長透過單日當沖金量的提高帶動台股單日的成交量實施以來我也很同意因為我們確實看到是有幫助的所以我個人也有提案把當沖降稅的措施延長三年"},{"start":15374.052,"end":15396.825,"text":"可是我這個地方就是想要提醒一下因為這個再延長一直延長畢竟它就是一個特殊的手段我們當然都知道還是要回歸到正常的市場運作所以我們也有看到報導有去指出一些現象雖然確實有成長但是到底成長了誰"},{"start":15398.386,"end":15420.355,"text":"我們看到這個表格裡面有提到外資法人去年的總損益194億可是我們來看本土的時候光是本土的法人他只有1.6億差很多更何況是本土的自然人他是負291.2億"},{"start":15423.476,"end":15441.463,"text":"所以這樣的一個分析讓我們覺得很憂心所以我們還是想說這個當沖降稅不單單是要提升交易量我們更希望的是提升股民跟國庫的經濟效益部長是這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":15445.248,"end":15455.139,"text":"所以我在這個地方就是希望說把握這個延長的三年如果真的延長三年的話那我請教一下部長要做什麼規劃能夠達到我們的目標"},{"start":15458.585,"end":15472.92,"text":"跟委員報告證券市場也好資本市場的管理機關基本上是金管會所以對這一次延長當中降稅這樣的一個措施要不要再繼續延長所以我們在之前有跟金管會做相關密切的一個討論"},{"start":15473.801,"end":15495.701,"text":"也感謝金管會提供了相當多的一些資料除了正向的比如說降低投資人的交易成本然後擴充這個整個維持這個證券市場的一個流動性以及帶動整體資本市場的一個活絡之外當然他也提到就是說必須要有一些管控的一些措施必須要有一些管控機制然後讓這個當沖降稅能夠不要走偏了"},{"start":15498.884,"end":15523.784,"text":"另外也就是我們也請他提供就是說以當沖的跟非當沖的違約的比例來看當沖的違約比例並沒有比非當沖的違約比例高所以我這個部分我們在這一次討論的過程當中都有相關的一個資料的一個分析當然後續委員這邊提到就算有關股民還有國庫的經濟效益的關鍵等等都是要去注意的也是我們要金管會也會去密切觀察的"},{"start":15525.025,"end":15549.518,"text":"謝謝部長我們關心的就是這個延長三年到底是好的誰我們希望還是要把股民跟國庫的效益當作是一個最重要的一個目標好不好提出一些策略其實我另外還要關心一個部分部長您也很了解我對於我們原區也就是以前的原住民鄉"},{"start":15550.879,"end":15556.204,"text":"財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議第12會期財政委員會議"},{"start":15571.957,"end":15597.618,"text":"你們有聽到我的訴求有邀請這六都來但是我說不是邀六都來卻沒有邀真正的這幾個園區來那後來呢你們也用另外的辦了一次但是我看到你們的回函我也蠻傻眼的為什麼因為我們希望就是叫他們來因為財政部"},{"start":15598.579,"end":15621.355,"text":"無論如何,地制法也好、公債法也好、財化法也好畢竟裡面談到財政的部分你們是統籌全國的財政嘛我們也希望你們要有專業意見嘛所以呢,你們邀請他們來對我來講很重要因為他們的意見你們要聽到但是我發現就沒有耶"},{"start":15622.757,"end":15637.537,"text":"後來你們有邀了這一次我看到你們的會議記錄我又更傻眼了我在猜他們的意見在哪裡呀我完全看不到他們的意見他們的發言我只看到結論寫什麼呢"},{"start":15639.019,"end":15659.458,"text":"建議相關直轄市政府橫著轄內園民區自治需求尋預算程序綜合檢討並參著《地質法》第83條之七第二項規定恰商園民區檢討補助事宜我覺得我看到還要去恰商"},{"start":15660.259,"end":15685.201,"text":"那部長我覺得應該這樣的結論你也看不下去因為根本沒有辦法解決問題嘛那好了那我也只好土法煉鋼啦因為我找不到他們的意見我就只好一個一個打電話問每一個區公所與會的人員你們來的時候你們的意見表達是說了什麼好那我要看的你們剛剛提到"},{"start":15686.222,"end":15713.92,"text":"你們的結論要他們看第83條之7的第二項規定可是重點是在第83條之7的第一項為什麼因為重點就是83條之3所列山地原住民居住自治事項他提到前三年平均稅客收入所以我就想要請教部長"},{"start":15714.881,"end":15720.094,"text":"前三年平均稅客收入請教您怎麼算?"},{"start":15724.085,"end":15726.326,"text":"市政府也很多錢他們自己也有水庫的回饋金他們說"},{"start":15752.597,"end":15767.088,"text":"他們的稅出自編是4億多但是呢他們的總稅出決算是8億多你看一下這個計算基礎差了一倍至少一倍那他們很苦的是什麼"},{"start":15768.097,"end":15789.953,"text":"他們要公墨、造橋鋪路還有這些學校機關的設施聚會所等等等這種大型建設都需要地方的配合款您應該也很了解但是區公所他沒有自主裁員他就要仰賴市政府同意然後合撥配合款那這有什麼樣的問題"},{"start":15791.354,"end":15804.586,"text":"因為往往他們很多的案件都沒有在市政府送出的案件內因為他要仰賴市府比席啊所以他們很苦啊"},{"start":15806.195,"end":15833.678,"text":"所以部長您了解所以所以我再進一步的要講就是其實像我們談到的前三年的平均這些年軍公教條新多少物資指數年增率到達多少可是他永遠被那個法條給綁死因為那個法的文字就寫在那邊前三年升格前三年的水準已經歷經多少年了"},{"start":15834.378,"end":15857.145,"text":"不進則退沒有變就是縮減因為那個法定的文字在那邊大家就按照那樣子即可所以我為什麼會一直希望而且我好麻煩就是大家做錯一件事好簡單要回復好難也要到地質法修也要在財化法修又要到公債法修重點這是政府弄錯的事餒"},{"start":15859.62,"end":15882.637,"text":"看我一個立法委員苦口婆心我何其無辜啊我們的族人何其無辜啊委員會這個事情確實非常關切但是我們還是要回到源頭就是《地質法》裡面的規定就是您剛剛也舉出來的那事實上不是只是前三年的平均稅客收入只是一個參酌另外還有其他因素要來做涉算補助至少要讓園民區"},{"start":15884.418,"end":15912.467,"text":"實施自治事項能夠有足夠的裁員我們在會議裡面也提到就是說中央統籌分配稅款逐年都在擴大告訴各職俠是你應該要去讓這個原民區能夠有足夠的錢來實施它的自治事項這是我們這次會議的目的那剛剛委員提到就是說各區的來開會的代表們他們的意見如何其實我們的國庫署室友都有記錄下來我想這個部分是不是會後我們提供給委員他各區的意見我們記錄下來給委員做裁員"},{"start":15914.407,"end":15933.362,"text":"不論是部長或者是國庫署長其實你們都很認真也常常的關心我所關心的議題我很感激我只是覺得很苦啊因為以我一己之力要完成這個政府當年的錯誤我覺得我好累因為我覺得不是就是各部會應該要主動的來去補正嗎"},{"start":15936.664,"end":15957.429,"text":"那我希望因為畢竟財政部是統籌我們全國財政的主管機關我還是希望說給我一個積極的解方修法的意見那是不是這樣部長我希望齁就是再把各區的意見把它整理一下然後呢逐案的說明"},{"start":15958.149,"end":15987.182,"text":"解決的方案就是很具體的告訴大家說怎麼解決那要修法建議的修法方向還有修法的期程這樣可以嗎委員的意思就是我們先把各個區的意見彙整起來然後看有什麼方式可以做主一的讓大家知道我們可以怎麼做當然您要知道修法其實它的工程是比較大的您在那個地質法那邊也有提案可是當年一個法就打破啦對所以修法其實基本上很審慎就是一個條文下去其實影響到後面是"},{"start":15988.622,"end":16011.431,"text":"這是補證以前的錯誤我覺得這個沒有什麼需要審慎那部長這樣子就大概希望在兩週內把這樣的一個積極的還有期程、修法期程可以提供嗎?期程?因為第四法不是我們的主管法規沒有,就是你的專業意見我們就把意見看看我們盡量有提供給委員因為畢竟你們的"},{"start":16013.812,"end":16025.289,"text":"意見我們拿到了之後他就會是未來我們提供給各部會的意見好不好我們盡量研議謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝立法委員那接著我們請"},{"start":16027.009,"end":16043.704,"text":"黃建豪、黃建豪、黃建豪我言不在廖先祥、廖先祥、廖先祥我言不在謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳我言不在蘇清前、蘇清前、蘇清前我言不在羅廷偉、羅廷偉、羅廷偉我言不在"},{"start":16045.152,"end":16069.802,"text":"本席在這裡做一個報告今日登記花園的委員均已詢答完畢那本日會議作如下列的結議就是報告跟說明跟詢答完畢二、委員質詢如果沒有及時答覆或請補充資訊請相關的部會在一週內已書面的答覆委員另有求"},{"start":16070.622,"end":16079.134,"text":"令我要求期限者從期鎖定在這裡再跟大家做一個報告《證券交易條例》"},{"start":16086.803,"end":16112.293,"text":"政卷交易稅條例第二條之二第十四條條文修正草案政卷交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案政卷交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案本五案令哲其繼續審查"},{"start":16115.097,"end":16131.766,"text":"本日會議議程也已經進行完畢那就是 倘若有不在場的委員那請你們補題書面的一個執行一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好 休息"},{"start":16151.049,"end":16156.814,"text":"行政院函請審議:「證券交易稅條例第二條之三及第十二條條文修正草案"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:02 - 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大家好 大家早安"},{"start":9.916,"end":19.338,"text":"草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":38.141,"end":40.005,"text":"草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":50.37,"end":69.203,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法"},{"start":79.292,"end":90.345,"text":"放出修法建立消防人員的積極安全衛生制度上的補充及框架"},{"start":91.95,"end":104.694,"text":"環上消防領域的職業安全衛生保障的體系,作為各級政府落實及執行消防領域職業安全的衛生及康規之一項。"},{"start":112.25,"end":113.513,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":124.315,"end":135.919,"text":"草案第43條之一違反資訊權是消防法部分條文修正草案裏面進行最重要的管理,如若違反相關規定,有很可能造成更多的失望、疑惑和懲戒。也有37條、40條、42條消防設備違反"},{"start":153.286,"end":161.148,"text":"草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":173.212,"end":181.599,"text":"草案案。二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-5","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:16:48 - 09:20:10","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等23人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張宏陸等26人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查國民黨黨團擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員邱若華等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。【第十七、十八案如經復議則不予審查。】\n\n【10月16日、17日二天一次會】）","id":"155493"},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:02:56","end_time":"2024-10-16T09:16:42+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155492","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","duration":176,"start_time":"2024-10-16T09:13:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69e4c4bdcdf11a60607eabaf4c5466d7e724e67efb77946029cdb5c4b8ea9a70065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.22034375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.22971875,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.85221875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.23971875,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.56659375000001,"end":118.15596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.61159375000001,"end":128.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.38221875000002,"end":139.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.78971875000002,"end":171.85221875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.2,"end":22.837,"text":"好 感謝 再一次感謝今天內政委員會牌相關消防法的一個修法近年來消防人員救災殉職的案件頻傳凸顯消防人員職業安全保障及機制還是有要加強的地方因此國民黨黨團提案建立消防人員職業安全衛生制度性的保障框架以及"},{"start":24.798,"end":46.467,"text":"維護消防人員執勤的時候的生命安全及身心健康並且藉由消防機關辦理互助共濟的事項以激勵消防及義勇消防人員的士氣及因應的緊急事件。本席另外有提案為了強化企業自主風險管理落實災害預防責任"},{"start":48.568,"end":69.726,"text":"確保自由災人員的生命安全及避免衍生的社會成本與院版不同的重點內容。我想幾個部分一定要在提案說明再做一個確認。一、完善危險物品的場所工作者之接避保護的條款,增訂對吹哨者不利處分的法令效果無效。"},{"start":70.466,"end":92.821,"text":"草案 法律的輔助以及減輕或免除其刑的規定。我想吹哨者保護法之前我們一直強調我們也希望能夠與時俱進那在吹哨者保護法還沒有辦法在我們現在來做一個具體的討論的時候我們也希望其他的相關法規能夠有吹哨者保護的相關的概念。二、擴大"},{"start":94.422,"end":108.527,"text":"災害事故調查會之啟動要件,納入災害搶救以外之其他情務,所導致消防員重傷死亡或暫時全失能的情況,應該啟動調查機制,落實調查權的立法宗旨。"},{"start":109.639,"end":139.139,"text":"以及我們也希望確定反覆違規者按次處罰的規定及勒令停業或停止使用處分的要件以防止改善期間的無限制而導致與危害因此潛藏減少基層重複查核的工作負擔本期樂見內政委員會今天排審也想提醒今年已經有許多基層的公務員不幸的離開希望透過這些事件告訴政府"},{"start":139.859,"end":168.415,"text":"公務員的僱主。」即便是身為公務員仍需要職業安全衛生法的保障如果刻意只是在消防法做改革是切割跟稀釋政府的責任這樣的惡性循環只會讓公務員的職安及權益持續惡化要打破這樣的一個惡性循環就必須考慮公務員納入相關的保障希望執政再也共同的深思持續的檢討我們為公務同仁加油我們為所有第一線的"},{"start":168.695,"end":171.1,"text":"草案案件,均警消同仁一起努力。」"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-5","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:13:46 - 09:16:42","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等23人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張宏陸等26人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查國民黨黨團擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員邱若華等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。【第十七、十八案如經復議則不予審查。】\n\n【10月16日、17日二天一次會】）","id":"155492"},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:02:26","end_time":"2024-10-16T09:13:37+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155491","委員名稱":"黃捷","duration":146,"start_time":"2024-10-16T09:11:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69bcd5ffdeb8c92fbd7eabaf4c5466d7e724e67efb77946029a269d86429812c965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.69284375,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.793468750000001,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.47471875,"end":142.91159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.96,"end":21.682,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位我們委員同仁大家好今天審查院版還有所有委員版本的消防法部分條文的修正草案那我自己比較聚焦在吹哨者的保護還有消防員的資訊權還有消防員健康相關的一些條文"},{"start":22.543,"end":33.248,"text":"草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":51.417,"end":75.138,"text":"因為其實過去在各式各樣的吹哨者保護相關的條款裡面都是讓吹哨者獨自要承擔這個糾正不法的之後的一些責任跟心理的壓力還有包括可能雇主的報復行為或者是職場上面的一些心理壓力所以我也希望透過這一次的修法可以讓主管機關成為吹哨者的後盾"},{"start":75.618,"end":97.297,"text":"那也鼓勵吹哨者他可以勇於的站出來糾舉這些不法的事項這樣子整體的消防安全環境才會越來越好那在健康的部分其實有一些細節包括說我也要求消防機關必須要定期的對所屬消防人員進行健康檢查那我認為這個健康檢查是非常重要的"},{"start":97.697,"end":109.481,"text":"那我也非常關注女性消防員的部分所以在女性消防員的相關條文我也要求在懷孕跟產後的兩年內可以依照醫師的建議來申請職務的調整來促進這個母性的健康那我認為對於女性的職場環境非常的重要"},{"start":117.424,"end":142.053,"text":"那當然最後要感謝一下消防員的辛苦總是在第一線守護國人的生命財產安全那我也代表高雄人來感謝所有的消防員因為在這一次的三山徒兒颱風裡面各縣市的消防員都來到高雄救災以及支援非常感謝大家那我也希望藉這個機會我們來守護消防員來促進消防員的所有保障以上謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-5","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:11:11 - 09:13:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等23人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張宏陸等26人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查國民黨黨團擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員邱若華等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。【第十七、十八案如經復議則不予審查。】\n\n【10月16日、17日二天一次會】）","id":"155491"},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:02:46","end_time":"2024-10-16T09:11:02+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155490","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","duration":166,"start_time":"2024-10-16T09:08:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df699c1d8b0aeeea97397eabaf4c5466d7e724e67efb77946029cedd0ffdca60b9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.32971875,"end":164.35971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.359,"end":31.17,"text":"好謝謝主席各位呃與會同仁各位媒體先進各位政府長官大家早安大家好今天來做這個消防法修法牛雪林版本的提案說明這個近年來這個空工廠跟倉儲的火災不斷當然我們都知道這個存放化學跟危險物品的工廠他當然是危害性跟對消防人員的安全打擊最高的第一優先這點本席競表同意"},{"start":32.303,"end":55.985,"text":"但是我們認為除了化學品這樣的一個工廠需要加強火災預防的配套措施之外具有一定規模以上的倉儲因為其火載量是一般工廠的4到5倍換言之它的易燃性跟造成的打擊可能不亞於存放危險物品的工廠所以這火載量很高所以即使大型倉儲不見得存放所謂的危險物品"},{"start":56.906,"end":83.675,"text":"但是發生火災的時候常常是全面燃燒或是長時間的悶燒所造成的危害不亞於工廠火災不只是對於消防人員救災的這個耗損跟長時間的疲勞也因為長時間的悶燒或者是長時間的打火不易造成這個周邊社區嚴重的公害所以我認為這些社會成本都是我們修法的時候應該要考慮的事情"},{"start":84.375,"end":105.56,"text":"我們若談危險跟化學物品,屏東的民洋大火就是標準的超量,造成的消防人員不幸殉職。而桃園盧竹的美孚大火跟陽梅的家樂福大火,都是因為長期的燜燒跟大規模的燜燒。除了使消防人員疲於奔命之外,腐臭味的空氣污染也嚴重影響周邊居民的生活品質。"},{"start":106.48,"end":122.267,"text":"有鑒於此,為使一定規模以上的倉庫比照工廠來做納管,並且克與相關資訊透明的義務,以敦促企業重視自主風險管理,減少火災發生後社會付出的巨大成本。"},{"start":123.288,"end":138.725,"text":"並遏止企業降低自身災害風險的責任轉嫁給社會承擔的這種惡質行為並強化消防人員職業安全衛生保障。本期提出《消防法部分條文修正草案》案,懇請各位委員同仁支持。"},{"start":139.266,"end":162.653,"text":"在此也特別感謝行政院卓榮泰院長內政部劉世芳部長在上個禮拜本席的總質詢的時候已經當場答應倉儲的納管不只要從工廠管理輔導法處理也要在消防法的相關條文中做精進用雙軌並進的方式來確保消防安全也感謝消防署事前的積極溝通我們期待今天的修法過程順利圓滿以上"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-5","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:08:16 - 09:11:02","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等23人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張宏陸等26人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查國民黨黨團擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員邱若華等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。【第十七、十八案如經復議則不予審查。】\n\n【10月16日、17日二天一次會】）","id":"155490"},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:06:06","end_time":"2024-10-16T15:49:59+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155649","委員名稱":"邱志偉","duration":366,"start_time":"2024-10-16T15:43:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69686827199c757c4caa7101df8a25548cbec2939449debf3cca595a3337a5a3375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":8.907218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.177218750000002,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.164093750000003,"end":14.543468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.37034375,"end":16.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.66534375,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.68221875,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.770343750000002,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.17909375,"end":24.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.00596875,"end":27.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.836593750000002,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.291593750000004,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.877843750000004,"end":35.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.227843750000005,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.79284375,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.978468750000005,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.400343750000005,"end":42.336593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.10034375,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.336593750000006,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.555968750000005,"end":42.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.657218750000006,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.18409375,"end":47.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.60159375,"end":47.922218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.922218750000006,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.393468750000004,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.852843750000005,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.485343750000006,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.53596875,"end":62.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.704718750000005,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.97471875,"end":65.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.05909375,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.55659375,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.67471875000001,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.84284375,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.73721875000001,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.97346875000001,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.80034375000001,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.06596875000001,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.49159375,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.37096875,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.21846875,"end":96.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.60659375,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.18846875000001,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.28971875,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.96471875,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.99409375,"end":101.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.01096875,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.27659375,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.43659375,"end":104.47034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.47034375000001,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.95971875000001,"end":105.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.78659375000001,"end":105.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.87096875,"end":114.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.312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謝謝主席也請陳部長我來示範一下什麼叫5加1300秒的精準質詢5加1 4加1嘛5分鐘是300秒時間稿我就會停止質詢這個立法院不能說是在這邊委員會都有它的規定還能夠講到保我是不會啦"},{"start":35.369,"end":55.316,"text":"謝謝部長,部長我之前跟你反映貨櫃車限重的問題,當然會影響到南部金屬扣件螺絲葉子,增加他們成本,當然是有過半跟沒過半的差別,但是直接衝擊就是他們的螺絲葉不僅清廉之道,"},{"start":56.468,"end":71.592,"text":"所以這種情況之下這個營運成本增加我想他們已經有點情緒有他們有透過很多管道來反映公務局的說法怎麼樣公務局最新的政策怎麼樣高公局來局長各位報告"},{"start":76.476,"end":78.077,"text":"所以不會對他們造成這個語音成本的增加"},{"start":96.757,"end":120.497,"text":"對就是他們現在表達的那個意見的部分應該是不會你去跟他們座談一下吧我們會有同仁會去跟他們特別要求高工局也好對公路局也好跟業者要特別溝通跟螺絲工會最溝通啊讓他們瞭解這個政府政策不會影響到他們的這個經濟成本上漲那也要拜託委員幫忙促成這個溝通溝通我已經開過很多協調會了對對對那就是你們政策要支持的是是"},{"start":121.698,"end":149.55,"text":"那另外這個各縣市都在爭取這個這個鐵路的立體化立體化大概縣說大概是這個高價化你如果是低價化這個成本增加很多所以每一個縣市都在爭取當然我已經提案要求到這個從橋頭從南梓從左營到橋頭這部分可信性研究正在評估那我希望在針鏈一樣到路竹為什麼"},{"start":150.43,"end":172.013,"text":"因為未來岡山跟鹿竹就是S狼帶的核心那岡山加鹿竹有9處的平交道那當然會影響到這個競爭能力阿所以這部分我開兩次會三次會阿所以這個要完工阿大概要2041年2041年我差不多要80歲了"},{"start":174.532,"end":196.188,"text":"事實要2041年,這個部分請部長能夠去了解一下每一個縣市條件不一樣,你要優先順序要不要先抓出來法委員您交代我們一定會積極處理,但現在是高雄市政府還沒有把可行性研究還沒啟動對,我說深列到岡山,延長到岡山到鹿竹"},{"start":196.528,"end":197.109,"text":"有一個問題就是"},{"start":212.165,"end":230.749,"text":"跟民航局就是臺南機場到馬宮當然航班有限大概最晚大概4年就結束了那這部分很多臺南市相信說我的選區已經北高雄嘛北高雄比方說自己人我們很多是要配合人要回去"},{"start":234.15,"end":236.672,"text":"台鐵最近部長有沒有做過?"},{"start":254.082,"end":255.163,"text":"那台鐵是這個國語英語然後再到台語"},{"start":281.909,"end":283.43,"text":"好我們來研究看怎麼樣來修正"},{"start":312.308,"end":312.549,"text":"假車牌的問題"},{"start":332.401,"end":345.249,"text":"假設擺問題這個交通部應該更了解一下另外臺61就是南延到高雄這部分目前在可行性研究可行性評估當中那什麼時候送證院"},{"start":346.533,"end":347.013,"text":"主席主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:43:53 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請陳部長跟黃國昌署長請周署長"},{"start":22.813,"end":32.097,"text":"兩位好,先請教一下署長,觀光署升格週年,我們花了269萬,辦了一個觀光之夜飲福龍,這場活動你有參加嗎?"},{"start":37.381,"end":39.304,"text":"我相信溫馨是很溫馨啊花了269萬"},{"start":54.725,"end":73.435,"text":"效益如何?我們的效益大概都分兩個部分那個部分我們是跟當地的觀光圈做一些結合實際的費用我還在瞭解我們同時是按照採購法的方式來做處理是啊我沒有質疑你不是用採購法這個絕票金額269萬我已經幫你整理出來了嗎?"},{"start":77.382,"end":101.571,"text":"那269萬丟下去效益如何還是我們的觀光署很有錢辦活動不用評估效益的委員這個這點可能誤會了所以我們辦任何的活動其實都還是做效益評估所以我才問你效益如何對效益評估的話我問了第三次我到現在還沒有聽到答案通常我們都是在季節年度的時候在做評估是"},{"start":102.751,"end":130.109,"text":"什麼時候評估報告會出來我們大概時間上結案大概都有兩個月的時間兩個月的時間我期待看這個結案報告我為什麼這樣講這個是那天的照片因為齁當你們發邀請函給我的時候我不太喜歡搞那種官樣文章"},{"start":131.46,"end":159.711,"text":"去坐在那邊講個話好像很關心我非常不喜歡做這種事情沒有講話啦但我覺得錢花下去要有效果嘛結果你們辦在一個飯店裡辦在一個飯店裡外面真的被這個活動吸引來的人寥寥可數寥寥可數我相信辦活動的人很嗨啦長官也很嗨啦但"},{"start":161.536,"end":179.203,"text":"我看完了以後我真的不知道這樣子的活動錢是不是有花在包購上是不是符合你們一開始在規劃這個活動的效益我真的看不懂所以我才請教你觀光署是不是預算太多"},{"start":182.131,"end":205.112,"text":"本來是一個戶外那因為是颱風之後那個那個我們的所有的這個沙灘那邊還有非常多的漂流木也為了安全所以就移到室內他這時候的選擇也跟委員報告一下他有兩個一個就是停辦一個就是改成室內所以我想說人數的部分確實是沒有當時的預期了"},{"start":207.233,"end":233.972,"text":"你看照片就知道了嘛你人也在現場嘛實際的部分我們再統計一下有啦 是很嗨啊官員很嗨啊結果去的民眾各位沒多少花了269萬我期待看到你們的成果效益評估啊我算一算啊平均一個人花在一個人身上大概一萬多塊 兩萬塊我看完了以後發現我們交通部很有錢啊"},{"start":235.151,"end":257.161,"text":"觀光署很有錢錢這樣花的第二個問題再麻煩署長就是回去以後用書面告訴我這個經費編在哪一個預算科目向下這沒問題可以嗎因為我回來了以後我開始檢討這個活動編在哪一個預算科目向下"},{"start":258.393,"end":287.392,"text":"我把今年的預算書不是今年要審明年的是去年已經審完今年的預算書我從頭到尾翻我看不到到底邊在哪裡那這個資訊對我們來講很重要因為這個預算到底邊在哪裡我們這個會期要審預算嘛這個會期既然要審預算那就要負責任的審啊秉持著我們卓榮泰院長所講的公帑不可以隨便浪費啊的精神"},{"start":288.291,"end":317.062,"text":"但我們如果要負責任的做到這件事情那我第一件事情就要知道到底變在哪裡這樣子我們在審預算的時候才有一個依據那第二個事情可能你們在提出評估報告的時候順便稍微說明一下因為連卓榮泰院長自己都說了標案集中在特定的場上不是一件健康的事情特別是你們在辦這些活動的時候全部都是限制型的標案"},{"start":318.191,"end":331.544,"text":"全部都是限制型的標案所以請署長看一下在這場活動的廠商我大概稍微整理了一下過去這4年限制型的標案觀光公署的部分拿到5700萬"},{"start":333.803,"end":349.335,"text":"達到五千七百萬成效如何因為剛剛您說嘛每個活動辦完以後你們都會有成效評估嘛一樣拜託你一個禮拜之內把過去辦的這些活動的成效評估都送到我辦公室這樣可以嗎"},{"start":355.298,"end":373.648,"text":"最後時間的關係最後一個雖然後面沒其他委員不要耽誤太多時間我想要請教部長一個問題就是說因為我覺得政治人物當地方爭取經費這真的是天經地義但我真的第一次看到一個公共工程委員會的主委"},{"start":374.588,"end":398.63,"text":"在他的臉書上面自我宣傳說他幫宜蘭爭取預算宜蘭鐵路高架化地方配合款因為曾經得的努力所以本來105億現在下降到57.23億然後用地的取得跟基地的費用改由中央全額負擔當我看到一個政務官"},{"start":399.671,"end":400.392,"text":"所以有一個清楚的標準嗎?"},{"start":427.475,"end":447.774,"text":"原則上有一個清楚的標準不過也要看每一個地方的狀況不太一樣沒有關係我不要耽誤其他委員的時間第一個我需要知道您剛剛所講的原則是什麼第二個你一直強調原則代表例外嘛那例外的情況是什麼我要說的只有一件事"},{"start":451.28,"end":472.269,"text":"在執政的時候在施政的時候就不要大小眼用一樣的標準我們地方建設不分藍綠嘛不會因為黨派而有所不同嘛宜蘭縣現在是國民黨在執政是我了解所以我才說中央不管如何用一樣的標準去做要不然看到一個政務官幫他"},{"start":473.499,"end":481.876,"text":"就特定的縣市爭取預算自己在臉書上面自我宣傳這真的還是讓人覺得非常的驚奇啊可以嗎好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:34:35 - 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貴很多"},{"start":190.914,"end":220.46,"text":"我們正在努力我覺得第一步我們一步一步來第一步先至少讓他禮拜一到禮拜天每一天都要有航班到花蓮的部分這個我們正在努力來做應該10月份這個月份應該就可以我們會盡快來做讓他一到日都有航班往花蓮那台東的部分沒有問題那我知道委員在講的是說希望能夠對票價上面多做一些補貼那這個部分我們也來思考看看看要怎麼做"},{"start":220.64,"end":243.757,"text":"我希望部長我希望你可以就是抓到這個重點就是真的最近我們真的太多包括我自己要跑行程我也不太敢坐火車啊因為第一個我沒有辦法掌控我的時間然後中間又有什麼路況那真的是蠻恐怖的所以所以就是說這一段路不是我們願意要這樣子"},{"start":244.958,"end":269.952,"text":"那所以針對在因應這樣子的狀況的時候這個不是增加航班而已你增加航班對於我們很多的選民來講他負擔是重的你光來回就好幾千塊耶所以這個部分要請你們特別去研議那剩下一點時間我另外關心一下那個淘機的部分那這個淘機的部分呢"},{"start":272.674,"end":300.512,"text":"其實我們有實地的去勘查那因為像比如說以去年的新聞來說淘機的這個國際排名有連四年下滑從13名掉到82名但今年有稍微再往前那其實在所有的檢討很多的原因裡面有一個很重要的關鍵就是在整個機場的服務工作我們是仰賴一群沒有經過完整禮儀教育訓練的保全"},{"start":301.613,"end":328.677,"text":"﹚陳瑩"},{"start":329.502,"end":329.982,"text":"這個態度上當然是不行的"},{"start":357.859,"end":369.069,"text":"這是很誇張那我們站在就是已經要出關了那總要找一下家人打個電話在哪裡也過來你不可以站在這裡為什麼"},{"start":370.336,"end":393.907,"text":"沒有講原因啊他說我為什麼不能站在這裡他說你站在這裡你就要被罰錢我說你恐嚇嗎這是你們在恐嚇民眾嗎就是這樣子的態度所以我覺得大家我說這樣子的保全的同仁是不是因為穿的那個制服感覺自己很像FBI就可以這樣子去大吼大叫"},{"start":394.727,"end":416.814,"text":"我覺得這樣的心態我是很不能接受那很多民眾也都來跟我們投訴所以這個部分我想這個特別提出來不是穿了制服就很帥就很有威嚴這樣的態度我們一定會要求機場公司要去檢討我覺得其實董事長他很認真我必須要在這裡作證就是說"},{"start":418.686,"end":445.344,"text":"我有反應給董事長他真的就自己換上便服然後再巡視看看到底哪裡有問題但是問題是如果董事長跟這個得標的公司怎麼講他們都不聽的話或者我不曉得這家公司有什麼問題他們這麼有辦法可以都標到這麼大的案子好幾億但是做出來的品質卻是給台灣扣分"},{"start":447.08,"end":465.699,"text":"誰飆到我都沒有意見但是機場是台灣的門面他們的工作其實已經不是說要管人家而是服務的一環所以這個部分要拜託你們要好好的盯一下到這個教育訓練的部分"},{"start":472.823,"end":490.668,"text":"我覺得教育訓練當然一定要加強還有你們可以參考一下這個我覺得農業部他很好他們我們反映之後檢疫的那個部分他們馬上就是如果有問題他們在這個履約上就是看要一定要罰扣一定的金額的價金"},{"start":491.988,"end":509.053,"text":"．瑩"},{"start":509.213,"end":509.233,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:25:29 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":99.923,"text":"沒關係部長說實在我們現在面臨到因為現在已經10月了嘛那我當然希望好但是我們現在在做一個檢討你說有可能是因為地震颱風軍演等相關的關係但我們看日本我們看其他我們鄰近的國家也有颱風也有地震可是為什麼他們的觀光是逆勢成長他們觀光比疫情之前還要好"},{"start":100.697,"end":127.893,"text":"那我們到底缺的是什麼?包括日本應該所有的台灣人民都知道因為日本現在日幣很便宜大家都很愛去是包括我們自己都很愛去所以說對我們來講你覺得是現在匯率匯率台灣的物價高因素很多這是其中之一來部長我給你一個機會你想一下你明年講還是講是說希望拿到千萬旅客人次本身一定樂觀其成但重點是怎麼做來今年750明年要變1000250萬怎麼來?"},{"start":130.68,"end":157.017,"text":"具體你的目標這個一千萬的這個來台數其實他是有一些策略跟方法然後我們是五大市場比如說這個五大市場我們私下都很多溝通的管道但我現在想請教原則上應該這麼說因為部長今天早上七百五嘛部長"},{"start":158.078,"end":171.395,"text":"新人上任三把火對不對講一下嘛報告委員你自己覺得怎麼樣我明年250從哪邊來然後250是達的到的有沒有一個亮點可以讓大家覺得來"},{"start":173.415,"end":198.386,"text":"我們這個航空業目前正在恢復當中恢復的過程當中其實旅客也會增加這是一方面那二方面其實更關鍵的是大家為什麼會喜歡來台灣玩台灣要有亮點所以我們正在針對亮點的部分正在努力當中那大家知道這次的地震當然其他地方也有地震但是對台灣來講太魯閣是一個很重要的觀光資源那這次很不幸地地震發生在東部那太魯閣確實受損了"},{"start":199.787,"end":202.35,"text":"亮點有可能是環境也有可能是活動也有可能是各縣市的對不對好"},{"start":218.426,"end":241.412,"text":"這就回到老命題其實我們各縣市有非常多的一些活動我覺得都是很有特色譬如說臺東有樂氣球新北有天燈節耶誕城新竹有風箏澎湖有花火那一樣嘛我們不希望是說集中在哪個月份我們希望是說平均如果是12月12個月每一個縣市每個月都可以有一個主題或代表是"},{"start":241.952,"end":267.941,"text":"我就請教這樣子會不會更加的會讓大家覺得說整個臺灣很有趣每個月我來至少我都有一個縣市我就不會集中消費在某一個地方委員說的很正確我們應該要平均一點大家每一個月都能夠來那是第一個第二個就是說針對宣傳面我們有12個活動假設我們有12個月有12個活動宣傳也要讓國外的旅客知道所以我們可能比如說打出12大"},{"start":269.38,"end":294.205,"text":"一月可以去哪個縣市二月去哪個縣市那請教部長然後在裡面你有沒有想到譬如十月我現在哪個縣市是可以去我們十一月開始就是馬上有一個記者會了就是我們的今年的十一月開始就是二十二個縣市啊去分工所以月月有亮點所以十一月的話是花蓮那元月是台中首長我看部長不需要你那麼保護啦來啦部長"},{"start":297.621,"end":305.527,"text":"11月可以去哪個縣市11月阿以我個人來看11月台灣的每個縣市都很好玩"},{"start":306.618,"end":327.075,"text":"那這樣不就又回到老話一句如果說大家都很好玩那就沒有亮點啊縣市都亮點那就是沒有亮點我們現在討論其實很務實的討論部長我沒有要挖洞給你跳我現在點出來這個問題因為這個就是過去到現在我一直在交通委員會有講的就是說我希望是讓全台灣都能有"},{"start":327.355,"end":342.557,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們有一個中央機關交通部下的觀光署當然我自己也覺得是過去觀光觀光舉報觀光署真的還不夠是天氣變涼台灣有很多的很好的溫泉的區域或許我們可以來發展溫泉的旅遊"},{"start":343.418,"end":360.906,"text":"日本很多的溫泉旅遊台灣人很愛去但其實我們台灣有相當多很棒的溫泉景點這個部分或許可以列為11月或者12月冬天的時候可以用的月份所以部長我就麻煩了既然我們就已經有共識其實我沒有要偏後哪一個縣市因為只要台灣好只要旅客來台灣對我們來講都是賺我們"},{"start":363.507,"end":365.568,"text":"關光旅遊住宿飯店餐飲運輸這都是我們國人可以獲得的"},{"start":387.509,"end":411.999,"text":"所以我們列出來12個月我希望下一次你可以很侃侃而談你甚至如果說有機會出國的時候也可以跟國際友人介紹11月來台灣哪一個縣市什麼活動你一定要來非來不可12月新北耶誕城你一定要來因為這正是已經被列入說是全世界十大的一個亮點所以你沒有來的話太可惜了"},{"start":412.859,"end":412.979,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:11:37 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為什麼增加那麼多啊"},{"start":225.443,"end":245.351,"text":"這幾年的話就是說分心駕駛的非常多那為什麼分心駕駛這麼多那以前就不分心現在比較分心現在手機用LINE的人相當多手機用的比較多那我想請教所以交通部我現在有些調查的結果他自己都承認都是因為在分心或者是疲勞的時候"},{"start":246.411,"end":250.215,"text":"數字只要是向上我們都必須要檢討那如果我們找出原因是因為用手機的人數多了的話或者是開車用手機我們還是要想辦法"},{"start":266.374,"end":276.527,"text":"所以我們一直在宣導就是說不超速那那個不分心不疲勞駕駛然後要繫好安全帶大概就是三不一樣的部分要做好這樣才有辦法就確保那個安全駕駛"},{"start":277.424,"end":302.554,"text":"總而言之這個數字我是希望交通部作為警惕那當然另外一個問題就是說根據交通部自己統計數字國道客運載客量2019年是8138萬人次的高峰到疫情後2022年降到4300萬人次2023年雖然回升到5209萬人次但是能遠低於疫情前的水平"},{"start":303.334,"end":326.798,"text":"那面對國道客運大幅下滑的情況請問交通部有什麼樣的措施來協助業者度過這樣的難關報告委員他下滑是一個客觀確實發生的事情那幾個面向一方面或許對民眾來說搭乘高鐵或是搭乘台鐵便利性也蠻高的高鐵台鐵其實在8年前就有了"},{"start":327.358,"end":344.107,"text":"那二方面是說他們的司機的缺額也確實是一個問題那這個部份我們交通部也正在協助當中但對我們來說國道科育還是非常的重要反正那個我請交通部這個會後光前這兩個問題都給我一個報告好不好好好好謝謝你謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:05:36 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麼程度我知道你們現在目前是希望九大運輸業你們都規定嘛對不對而且是說有看到人我現在是說你沒有看到人你也應該這樣做我們分工分工來做這件事情好不好另外有點時間那個我在前兩個月邀請邀請這個"},{"start":358.888,"end":365.033,"text":"交通部長前交通部長李孟彥到我們嘉義市來那時候包括王美惠王美惠事實上建設地方建設都是不分藍綠的"},{"start":367.438,"end":389.773,"text":"那他來了之後加一次的市長黃敏惠有提了10項的交通上的這個建設很多那個署長跟處長應該有跟著去嘛那時候10項他有李部長有引諾6項我知道大部分都在執行當中我今天拜託你兩件事情第一個這個建設是延續的而且對地方對全國都是好的所以你要跟你的級數署長講要請他貫徹好不好"},{"start":390.814,"end":390.914,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:52:18 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14:59:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155643","gazette":{"lineno":1279,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（14時52分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長好。今天你被問了一整天臺鐵漲價的事，我們做個總結，第一個，春節過年前不會漲，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這是第一個。我也肯定你，你說你不會把這次10月份、今天開始漲電價的部分加到臺鐵票價裡面，這一定要落實，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員啓楷：但是我現在為什麼聽到臺鐵說10月22日要送去董事會，是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請杜董。"],["張委員啓楷：杜董不用回答，你現在只要貫徹部長講的兩個承諾，過年前、春節前不能漲，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們還在研議中。"],["張委員啓楷：雖然你們會送去討論，但是一定要貫徹，這是第一個。"],["杜董事長微：我們會把它做好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你今年漲的價格不是2.28億，是4.56億，對不對？絕對不要加上去，我肯定部長這樣做，本來就要從省電那邊來減少人民的負擔，這個我高度肯定。接下來我們來談一下，我延續剛剛陳培瑜委員所提到的行人地獄，部長，你知道今年1月到6月我們的行人不幸死掉、過世的有多少人？"],["陳部長世凱：按照委員上面的數字是183人。"],["張委員啓楷：這個數據太恐怖了吧！6個月我們的行人發生事故不幸過往的183人，一天大概平均1個，怪不得CNN說我們是行人地獄。我看交通部的資料，你們本來訂定的目標是今年要比去年降7%，結果現在不只沒有降、反升，上升了將近6%、5.78%，這個要拜託部長當作為重中之重來處理，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前7月和8月已經都下降了。"],["張委員啓楷：7、8月有降，是嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，1到7月已經降了，8月也都降一些了，都在降。"],["張委員啓楷：太好了，繼續努力，希望把今年這個目標是真的達到往下降。"],["陳部長世凱：整體來說，到目前為止，比去年的同期還下降。"],["張委員啓楷：太好了！我們來看一個個案，你是從臺中來的，你也是東海的，我們來看一下你學妹這個個案，9月24日東海大學女學生這個事情，據我們後來瞭解，主要發生意外的原因其實就是那台公車要轉彎的時候沒有停下來，沒有看。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，我們有強制停等，但這一台公車沒有停等，而且我們不只強制停等，還強制要指差確認，但是他顯然是沒有做這個動作。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在一個是要強制執行。第二個，應該修法以及修相關的規則，目前的規定是在道路交通安全規則第一百零三條第二款，部長，你看這個規定有沒有漏洞，汽車行近行人道穿越的時候，遇有行人穿越、攜帶白手杖或導盲犬之視覺功能障礙者時，才要停下來，這個條文有問題吧？這個條文是指你有看到，像從東海大學學生的這個不幸事件，太多的悲劇產生都是因為他沒有停下來，為什麼沒有停下來？就是因為這個規定有漏洞。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，現在是只要有行人都得停等，這是必然要做的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們就修法把它修掉，好不好？我問一下，這個條文看起來就是你遇到有行人穿越才停下來，我知道現在已經這樣做了，但是我是指你們應該把這個規則就這樣定……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你寫的紅字是只要遇到有行人穿越就要，後面當然有些條件更要，前面只要是行人穿越就要停。"],["張委員啓楷：現在問題就出在你看不到行人有穿越或者有死角，所以應該不是有行人的時候你才停下來，應該像日本你到了一個路口要轉彎的時候就要停下來，而且要做手勢是不是？部長，我先跟你說一下，剛剛這個條文是你們要負責……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是一般汽車，但是只要是客運的那種大型車輛，不管有沒有人它都必須要停等，而且要指差確認，尤其是客運公車，不管有沒有人都得停。"],["張委員啓楷：這是你現在的規定，所以你就在規則裡面把它定好，不是只有要求交通部做，我身為立法委員也來修法，道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條第二項也沒有明定，我們來分工，好不好？修法這部分我來提案。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分沒有問題，你要提案……"],["張委員啓楷：對，我認為要明定，不是你看到才停下來，現在應該像日本。"],["陳部長世凱：但是這會影響到一般的汽車駕駛人，未來只要通過路口，不管是紅燈、綠燈、有沒有人，他都得停，這個一般道路上面的交通可能會……"],["張委員啓楷：先進國家都是要停，人本社會就是先保障行人。"],["陳部長世凱：一般大型車和客運是這樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們來做這個討論，道路交通安全規則第一百零三條第二款你們去處理，好不好？我負責來修法，修道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條第二項，至於要做到什麼程度，我知道你們現在目前是希望九大運輸業都規定，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們都有。"],["張委員啓楷：而且這是有看到人，我現在是指沒有看到人也應該這樣做，我們分工來做這件事情，好不好？另外，還有一點時間，我在前兩個月有邀請前交通部長李孟諺到我們嘉義市來，那時候包括王美惠委員，事實上地方建設都是不分藍綠的，他來了之後，嘉義市市長黃敏惠提了10項交通建設，署長跟處長應該都有跟著去，那時候提的10項，李部長有允諾6項，我知道大部分都在執行當中，我今天拜託你兩件事情，第一個，建設是延續的，而且對地方、對全國都是好的，所以你要跟局處首長講，要請他們貫徹，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，過去承諾的，我們會繼續做。"],["張委員啓楷：這是第一個。第二個，我最近會邀請你，你有空跟我去一趟，我跟王美惠委員，還有交通委員會的委員也拜託一起來看看嘉義市有哪些重要交通建設要做，好不好？請你多支持，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：我們再安排時間。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長，我們一起努力，感謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來邀請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:05:56","end_time":"2024-10-16T15:05:22+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155642","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","duration":356,"start_time":"2024-10-16T14:59:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69c28ed53ada6d4276aa7101df8a25548cbec2939449debf3c1cf611dc18aaa0c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":3.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.01346875,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.68659375,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.36159375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.938468750000002,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.23346875,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.18659375,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.38909375,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.28721875,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.31221875,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.22284375,"end":43.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.38284375,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.58909375,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.85034375,"end":55.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.74784375,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.76159375,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.94721875,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.41034375000001,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.81471875000001,"end":91.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9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高鐵如果沒有那麼快但是這個替代道路要麻煩速度能夠快一點因為這個應該會比較"},{"start":289.64,"end":289.92,"text":"在總諮詢的時候我有請教部長"},{"start":313.968,"end":331.162,"text":"臺鐵設置月臺那個柵欄門的事情那因為昨天在英哥有發生一件不幸的事情那是不是你們可以趕快考慮這個部分有這個部分我們有在努力做那明年就會看到一個實驗的這個月臺門在高雄就會看到"},{"start":331.863,"end":352.397,"text":"現在高鐵也有捷運也有那是不是你們趕快處理這一塊因為我昨天看到那個英哥那次雖然說那個可能是自殺或是其他原因我們還不確定但是畢竟如果有一個東西在那邊擋著可以增加很多後車的人的安全再麻煩部長能夠趕快處理這一塊我們在總諮詢已經有請教過你了好我們來錄影好謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:59:26 - 15:05:22","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155642","gazette":{"lineno":1324,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（14時59分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長好。我主要是要討論宜蘭部分的問題，宜蘭是一個很偉大的地方，像蔣渭水、像以前的法務部前部長陳定南都是那邊孕育出來的，所以那是一個很特別的地方。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想跟部長就教幾個問題，現在交通還是宜蘭一個很頭痛的問題，我假日常常帶家人去宜蘭玩，但是要嘛去塞車，要嘛回來塞車，不然就是有時候遇到高乘載，我自己去也會很麻煩。所以宜蘭有兩條任督二脈要打通，部長一定非常清楚，一個是高鐵，另外一個是快速道路，在這段時間，其實我一直替宜蘭去爭取，甚至我也到過宜蘭參加他們的一些會議，我們希望多做一點，讓宜蘭這個地方能夠更好。第一個，我想先就教剛剛所提到的第一個任督二脈，就是高鐵的部分，請問一下部長，高鐵延伸到宜蘭第二階段環評在評估進行中，預計它什麼時候會通過？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望這個環評在明年的第三季可以完成，現在在進入第二階了，明年的第三季我們有機會可以完成，我們希望能夠快一點。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，如果有機會你可以去看一下收假的時間，其實宜蘭塞車塞得非常、非常嚴重。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個一定會影響到那個地方的發展，所以交通要趕快處理，甚至宜蘭也是花蓮、臺東的人要到臺北，或是要到北部的時候，他常常會經過宜蘭。"],["陳部長世凱：會經過的地方。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以那個地方不是只有宜蘭要到西部更便利而已，甚至跟花東都會有關係，所以這塊要麻煩部長能夠儘量推動讓它快一點。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請問一下，因為我看到近年很多高鐵站附近的一些店家，還有一些住宅區都發展得非常好，像是中南部的高鐵站特區，大概都有400公頃以上，但是宜蘭只有一百九十多公頃，那裡面雖然有住商區，但是它欠缺的是產業區，這個部分是不是應該要通盤地檢討，而不是到時候快到時間了，或者是發展到一段時間之後發現不夠了，這時候才要去改變，不知道你們有沒有去討論到這個部分？"],["陳部長世凱：目前這個擴大的部分有跟地方政府在做討論，對這個部分其實大家應該也有不少共識，但後續我們還要看都市計畫，還有整個國土規劃的規定之後再來做定案。"],["吳委員宗憲：除了中央之外，麻煩你們一定要聽宜蘭縣政府以及當地的各個團體，或者是一般人民他們的意見，因為這個跟他們最有關係。"],["陳部長世凱：這個一定要。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我現在看了好幾個高鐵站，其周邊都發展得好繁榮，我希望宜蘭也能夠有這樣的效果出來，這時候就不能夠因為它的特區面積太小而讓發展受限制，我覺得這個都不好，其實這幾年宜蘭的人口一直在增加，可預期將來一定是一個不錯發展的地方，再麻煩一定要趕快把這個處理好。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，將來這個預定區內的住宅及一些廟宇可能有搬遷的問題，我希望將來會開一個座談會，我希望你們能夠派人一起參加，我們來聽聽看地方的聲音，但是要麻煩部長……"],["陳部長世凱：好，委員來召開，我們一定會派員。"],["吳委員宗憲：對！我們召開的時候你們派來的人……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：不要派一個很低層級、無法決定事情的，就是應付了事，好不好？這個麻煩，到時候一定要麻煩你多幫忙。我們希望讓宜蘭那邊的反彈能夠更小，讓他們將來能夠享受到最多的利益。"],["陳部長世凱：好，對。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有就是替代道路的問題，替代道路是從瑞芳交流道到礁溪的三民路附近，這個也要請你們趕快去做評估，這個替代道路可行性評估大概什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分在8月份我們已經報給院，就是可行性研究已經做好了，我們已經報給行政院，目前行政院正在審核當中。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。高鐵如果沒有那麼快，但是這個替代道路要麻煩速度能夠快一點，因為這個應該會比較能夠達成，那能夠多一條路，就是能夠減少他們交通上面的壅塞，這塊要麻煩部長能夠趕快處理。因為建設不分藍綠，在地方建設只有利民跟不利民這兩項，所以我們一定要一起合作，讓宜蘭能夠更好，好不好？","最後幾秒鐘，我想在總質詢的時候，我有請教部長臺鐵設置月臺柵欄門的事情，因為昨天在鶯歌有發生一件不幸的事情，是不是你們可以趕快考慮這個部分，既然……"],["陳部長世凱：有，這個部分我們有在努力做，明年在高雄就會看到一個實驗的月臺門。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，既然高鐵也有，捷運也有，那是不是你們趕快處理這一塊？"],["陳部長世凱：好！"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我昨天看到鶯歌那件事，雖然說那個可能是自殺或是其他原因，我們還不確定，但是畢竟如果有一個東西在那邊擋著，可以增加很多候車人的安全。"],["陳部長世凱：是，相對安全。"],["吳委員宗憲：再麻煩部長能夠趕快處理這一塊，我們在總質詢已經有請教過你了。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員，接下來邀請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:03:47","end_time":"2024-10-16T14:52:06+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155641","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","duration":227,"start_time":"2024-10-16T14:48:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df6910438bf8e3a78d04aa7101df8a25548cbec2939449debf3c2648cbe450dbf9495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.469093750000001,"end":6.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.442218750000002,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.640343750000003,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.195343750000003,"end":60.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.99596875,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.47659375,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.84784375000001,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.15159375,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.60159375,"end":75.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":79.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.89596875000001,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":119.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.25346875000001,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.28159375000001,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.41846875000002,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.73034375,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.41721875000002,"end":174.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.74471875,"end":216.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.85409375,"end":187.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.33909375000002,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.86159375000003,"end":225.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.00846875000002,"end":225.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.21096875,"end":227.28659375}],"whisperx":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所以你們缺額有多少那遭不到這些原因的原因是什麼遭不到的原因就是因為東部現在比較沒有那個任職意願的人"},{"start":190.177,"end":214.965,"text":"那再加上我們上一次我們招考從業人員我們的過程好比較短一點好所以我們反正董事長我只想要跟你講這件事情就是今天勞動部調查因為我時間有限了不好意思把你打斷了有6點勞動部的調查裡面有6.6萬的職缺超過半年找不到人這是所有的產業沒錯但是對於治安全至關重要的維修跟這個安全安檢人員平均開缺要等多久才能補齊"},{"start":218.558,"end":232.25,"text":"這個現在我們公司已經沒有所謂開靴的這個情形了我們現在就是我們第二次招考剛剛報告的我們從業人員第二次招考今年底以前我們會董事長我就是最後要跟你講一個"},{"start":233.49,"end":256.935,"text":"結論,反正綜合上述,我們希望你們可以更重視基層員工,不然從過去這樣看起來,會讓我們一般人覺得你交通部不夠和台鐵不夠重視基層員工,那尤其是這一些基層員工的薪資跟福利,所以矮人一解,那難怪找不到人,找不到人也會讓安全性做不到位,所以希望部長能夠改善高層高薪、基層低薪、軌道安全跟有嘴無心,希望可以改善這樣的狀況好不好?"},{"start":258.355,"end":286.908,"text":"那另外我想要問一個就是加蓋摩托車另外想要請問一下說關於新型態的機車包括這個全覆蓋式的機車以及手把龍頭是傳統的手握式或是駕駛盤式雖然民間一直有希望開放的聲音但是因為它涉及到安全道路管理路權監理等多項問題所以我想要請問一下交通部針對此類的新型態的機車合法上路目前有沒有規劃那目前研議的情形如何"},{"start":287.328,"end":300.982,"text":"年底之前有沒有可能讓新的管理政策上路這個新型態的車子齁我們確實是之前台灣比較沒有引進那現在可能會有引進的可能性的時候我們交通部確實已經有在研議那進度的部分我是不是請司長來跟委員報告"},{"start":303.604,"end":319.664,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下部裡面目前有在做研議那但是這個在歐盟那邊是屬於L5的這個算是三輪機車的部分那但是最後這些行駛的路線還是要到這個地方的道路所以我們後續還要跟地方政府做討論"},{"start":320.385,"end":331.273,"text":"對,所以我想要跟你說的就是針對這類加蓋機車有沒有要設立新的分類目前看到你就說可能會納在L5嘛對不對那也就是指這個排氣量域50cc或是電動超過5馬力之三輪機車當然這樣會有兩個問題首先如果是這個二輪式的加蓋機車是不是就無法納入規範進而上路"},{"start":342.075,"end":370.279,"text":"各位委員報告一下如果因為這裡面有三輪的還有這一個二輪的那如果說下方這個二輪的部分的話其實國內啦國內像這個BMW他有原廠生產就是說有架蓋的這個部分那基本上那個是比較單純是屬於一般的這個二輪的一個機車那剛剛委員提到的那個三輪的部分的話那個路線就比較這個複雜一點因為他沒辦法兩段式左轉可能有些路線可能要比較近"},{"start":370.999,"end":371.379,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":388.228,"end":412.221,"text":"施考說是不是應該歸納為大型重機也就是紅黃牌的部分比照汽車路權才可以避免這類的情形發生部長你認為怎麼樣委員您這樣的建議我們就列入討論因為目前也在討論的過程當中您的寶貴意見剛好可以作為我們參考進來之後我們就把它納入來討論對因為我覺得對於新興還有創意的這些產品我都主張行政機關應該要鼓勵多元發展"},{"start":412.921,"end":413.081,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:34:01 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4.88嘛那風力發電呢"},{"start":168.991,"end":186.829,"text":"風力發電因為有離岸的那個部分有前高後低所以稍微高了6塊多對嘛6塊所以部長您這個大企業家你聽我們現在平均3塊多4塊可是我們未來要大力增加的我們的發電來源"},{"start":189.071,"end":206.773,"text":"他的成本都比現在的多出這麼多好那有可能你因為過很有自信嘛所以我本心也覺得你有可能不會漲電價但是呢你可能就是撥補你撥補的整個的這個費用還不是全民承擔"},{"start":210.417,"end":223.292,"text":"所以這一塊本席覺得您真的過於自信還有再來更重要的是我相信很多委員都在質疑我們目前政府的能源政策真的要非常審慎的評估"},{"start":225.114,"end":253.247,"text":"因為現在的用電尤其我們希望綠電嘛那本席之前也有特別提出你綠電的情況會未來極有可能你日間OK你夜間用電需求越來越高會出現夜間缺電的情況那你夜間缺電的情況下你就變成為了要有穩定所以你可能就會用這個火力發電"},{"start":254.287,"end":254.708,"text":"產業用電的成長"},{"start":270.1,"end":293.449,"text":"不斷的成長你用供電的穩定性不夠再者產業用電的成長我在這裡要給部長部長您是科技業的這個大老闆出身您應該瞭解我們現在民進黨政府提到是AI的這個行政院團隊未來在台灣很多地方"},{"start":294.429,"end":294.769,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":311.403,"end":332.721,"text":"你AI進入AI時代之後有沒有評估過AI時代需要用電量會是我們現況的幾倍先不含這麼多科技產業的大力的投入不好意思主席再給我一兩分鐘這個非常非常重要你們有沒有評估過進入AI我們的用電量是幾倍"},{"start":334.192,"end":360.624,"text":"你們提得出這個數字嗎?好,請說簡答因為最近這一段時間整個AI蓬勃發展所以我們台電在估計你就直接告訴我嘛未來進入AI時代你的評估我們的用電量跟現在是幾倍成長我們是沒有到幾倍這麼多啦就是我們整體的台灣的用電量整體台灣的用電量來算那本來是我們原來預估的成長是1.8%左右那我們現在規劃將近到"},{"start":362.125,"end":363.667,"text":"本席在這裡跟部長甚至跟我們全國民眾我們說明第一個"},{"start":377.722,"end":394.34,"text":"你伺服器現在的伺服器跟AI的伺服器差別就增加1.6倍這個1.6倍那就算了現在大家都知道我就以AI它最大的特性就是不斷的耗電我在這裡也已經質詢過部長"},{"start":395.962,"end":418.463,"text":"那AI現在大家對AI不是那麼了解但是ChatGPD大家很清楚各位我們用Google我們同樣一個問題去詢問Google用Google查詢跟用ChatGPD這個有數據這是國際能源署的估算就一個小小的詢問"},{"start":419.984,"end":446.564,"text":"差了10倍他的用電量是10倍未來未來你看有多少人一天國人有多少人他Google轉成用CHAT GPT還有所有的產業科技產業甚至連我們公家機關很多都在講未來怎麼用AI你們不可以忽視AI它最大的特性就是用電量非常非常大"},{"start":447.404,"end":474.335,"text":"所以本席非常的憂心能源政策絕對不是像部長還有我們台電董事長說的絕對不是這樣報告委員我們都知道你們都知道新的IDC的伺服器140kW一個機櫃一個機櫃價值一億一個機櫃價值一億所以這個量的成長我們也都想過以這樣貴的一個那個IDC的一個機櫃它的成長量初期是不會大但是"},{"start":474.955,"end":496.052,"text":"中間當然啊科技一直進步就像我們過去很多東西很貴很快他就馬上的這個會減等於說整個價格就當下來未來就是AI的時代我沒有準備你們目前看不到你們的準備啊你們現在的用電"},{"start":497.373,"end":522.822,"text":"整個是不夠的我們的能源政策如果這樣繼續下去你的綠能也不夠那你綠能不夠你就是用火力發電不管燃煤燃氣造成很大的污染所以這個是台灣的隱憂所以你們不要用口號治國也千萬不要等於是這個自欺欺人我們民眾都不相信啊"},{"start":524.688,"end":541.025,"text":"報告委員我想您所指教的部分我們都會深刻的這個來檢討那麼我是因為你有你知道嘛我從業界來對所以你也科技業嘛我們會loading的去check"},{"start":541.445,"end":541.745,"text":"好,OK"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:53:47 - 15:03:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155638","gazette":{"lineno":1697,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（14時53分）謝謝主席。本席有請經濟部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好！"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好！部長，您辛苦了。今天會有那麼多委員接力地來質詢您，應該跟您近期的發言有關。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在這邊給本席質詢的時間不長，但是本席有幾個點要特別跟部長提出質詢。首先，第一個，部長，您有未來兩年電價應該不至於調漲的說法，本席覺得您過於自信，您個人覺得呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我對自己一向是很有自信。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以你也承認你過於自信。本席在這邊就教部長，到今年8月，您知道台電的發電成本每度是多少錢？多少？"],["郭部長智輝：綜合的嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：平均發電成本，到今年8月，現在10月，是多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，我們的發電成本大概接近4塊錢，三塊九多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席手上拿到的資料……"],["王總經理耀庭：我們有兩個費用，一個是發電，還有其他的產銷，光發電的部分是3.06。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這個包含發電，還有你說購電嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對、對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們平均1度電的成本是三塊多嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在去年全國電力資源供需報告有提到2025年再生能源發電的比重會達到15%，到2026年11月整個再生能源的比重達到20%。那未來將大力擴展的太陽能發電成本平均是多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：目前我們這邊的數字是大概4.88元，這是去年的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，4.88嘛！風力發電呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：風力發電，因為離岸的那個部分有前高後低，所以稍微高一點……"],["徐委員欣瑩：平均。"],["王總經理耀庭：6塊多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！6塊。部長，您這個大企業家，你聽，我們現在的平均三塊多、4塊，可是我們未來要大力增加的發電來源成本都比現在的多出這麼多。因為您很有自信，所以本席也覺得你有可能不會漲電價，你可能就是撥補，但是你撥補的整個費用還不是全民承擔，所以……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，我沒有請您講。所以這一塊本席覺得您真的過於自信。","再來更重要的是，我相信很多委員都在質疑，目前我們政府的能源政策真的要非常審慎地評估，因為現在的用電我們尤其希望是綠電，但是本席之前也有特別提出，綠電的情況未來極有可能日間OK，夜間用電需求越來越高，會出現夜間缺電的情況，夜間缺電的情況下，為了要穩定，你可能就會用火力發電……"],["郭部長智輝：儲電，我們會有儲電。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，儲電，你們都回答儲電，但是到目前為止你的儲電沒有具體的情況，所以本席第二個論點最重要的就是產業用電不斷地成長，你供電的穩定性不夠，以產業用電的成長來講，部長，您是科技業大老闆出身，你應該瞭解，現在民進黨政府提到AI的行政院團隊，未來在臺灣也有非常多的科技產業，我看到不管南部、中部、北部，甚至本席的選區──新竹，我們有大矽谷計畫，我們整個科技不斷地成長，未來的用電絕對成長。更重要的有一個很重要的數字，進入AI時代之後，你有沒有評估過AI時代需要的用電量會是我們現況的幾倍，先不含這麼多科技產業的大力投入。","不好意思！主席，再給我1、2分鐘。","這個非常非常重要！你們有沒有評估過，進入AI，我們的用電量是幾倍？你們提得出這個數字嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請說，簡答。"],["王總經理耀庭：因為最近這一段時間整個AI蓬勃發展，所以我們台電在估計從現在開始……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就直接告訴我，未來進入AI時代，你評估我們的用電量跟現在比是成長幾倍？"],["王總經理耀庭：沒有到幾倍這麼多，就是整體臺灣的用電量來算，我們原來預估的成長是1.8%左右，現在規劃差不多接近3%，在2.8%左右，所以等於是全體臺灣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：哇！太可怕了、太可怕了！你們這樣的回答，我更憂心了，我真的非常擔心。本席在這裡跟部長，甚至跟我們全國民眾說明：第一個，現在的伺服器跟AI伺服器的差別就增加1.6倍，1.6倍那就算了，大家都知道AI最大的特性就是不斷的耗電，我在這裡也已經質詢過部長，現在大家對AI不是那麼了解，但是ChatGPT大家很清楚，各位，我們同樣一個問題去詢問Google，用Google查詢跟用ChatGPT，這個有數據，這是國際能源署的估算，一個小小的詢問就差了10倍，它的用電量是10倍，未來你看國人一天有多少人把Google轉成用ChatGPT，還有所有的產業，包括科技產業，甚至連我們公家機關很多都在講未來怎麼用AI，你們不可以忽視AI最大的特性就是用電量非常非常大，所以本席非常的憂心，能源政策絕對不是像部長或台電董事長說的，絕對不是這樣。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，我們都知道……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們都知道？"],["王總經理耀庭：新的IDC伺服器140kW一個機櫃，一個機櫃價值1億，所以這個量的成長我們也都想過，以這麼貴的IDC的一個機櫃，它的成長量初期不會大，但是中間它就會上去，這個部分我們都在規劃。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然啊！科技一直進步，就像過去很多東西很貴，但是很快的它馬上整個價格就　down下來，未來就是AI的時代。"],["王總經理耀庭：我們有準備。"],["徐委員欣瑩：目前看不到你們的準備啊！現在的用電整個是不夠的，然後我們的能源政策如果這樣繼續下去，你的綠能也不夠，綠能不夠，你就是用火力發電，不管燃煤、燃氣都造成很大的污染，所以這個是臺灣的隱憂。"],["王總經理耀庭：整個的能源……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們不要用口號治國，也千萬不要自欺欺人，我們民眾都不相信啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您所指教的部分我們都會深刻檢討，你知道我是從業界來，所以我們滾動式……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你本身也從事科技業嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會rolling的去check、去反省，我們會與時俱進……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望能夠看到中央政府提出來的能源政策是真的務實可行，而且有未來的願景，不然到時候是全民受苦。"],["郭部長智輝：是，今天委員的指教，我們會深刻的反省，我們會滾動的調整。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["主席：登記發言的委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。林思銘委員、陳冠廷委員、王鴻薇委員、傅崐萁委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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有請我們郭部長請郭部長委員好部長午安"},{"start":23.274,"end":48.755,"text":"本席有幾次跟部長在一起討論一些事情的時候聽到部長談到我們整個台灣的發展那個眼睛都發亮所以我想部長很多的想法都是超前部署的觀念但是在這邊我們要替屏東縣來請命部長是屏東人所以對屏東的發展也有一份責任要來盡是部長支持這樣的論調嗎支持"},{"start":51.857,"end":72.485,"text":"部長我想我們9月10號我們跟屏東縣政府舉辦了一個南台灣的科技論壇那有提到一個所謂的南高屏大矽谷的一個計畫那我想要發展這個所謂的大矽谷計畫必須要有土地要解決水跟電的問題那請教部長目前屏東的所謂的一個產業園區的狀況部長有掌握嗎有"},{"start":78.562,"end":97.983,"text":"我有在瞭解這個但是就本席的瞭解目前我們的產業園區的出租率非常的高那土地可能面對未來即使像有一些很著名的科技大廠要來的時候可能我們面臨無地可用的一個困境那針對這個部分因為我們現在"},{"start":98.784,"end":101.386,"text":"報告委員我想這個我們在院裡面討論的時候我們有跟國科會有跟國發會共同在討論但是您剛才所說的這個南州崁嶺這一個好像"},{"start":125.839,"end":143.298,"text":"不是我們現在目前在討論的部分部長本席的意思是說因為現在我們平北包含我們有科學園區有二代交工促進區有農科未來一定都會面臨飽和飽和之後我們即使未來需要再招商的時候我們有沒有什麼其他的副案"},{"start":144.36,"end":157.336,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們現在比較重要的應該是交通的問題就是說現在屏東本身居住在屏東的這一些子弟沒那麼多人所以我們覺得如果開除"},{"start":159.238,"end":175.967,"text":"可能這些作業人員都要為國融或是為別的官司來所以溝通是優先重要我個人的建議這是要經濟來建設這溝通問題我們都一定會努力來解決但是問題這也要同步變形你同時也要面對土地水跟電的問題都要一邊來操心互助是謝謝委員我們這個水跟電的部分我們都在檢討"},{"start":187.273,"end":187.373,"text":"國發會還在審查"},{"start":217.253,"end":227.958,"text":"那因為本席知道這個到時候我們的縣政府的財力負擔也相當的重這部長能不能來幫忙啊,這個,對啊,我們可以將政府當中的導致是什麼我應該是會幫忙啦,因為我小時候住這裡"},{"start":239.206,"end":253.541,"text":"部長另外就是針對我們的這個一個綠能的一個政策我想今天有很多的立委有提出這樣一個質疑那針對我們目前本席有發現的一個問題我們針對所謂一個不利耕地的一個綠能開發"},{"start":255.242,"end":258.103,"text":"現在報告委員我們這部分跟農業部還有跟法務部大概我們三個部門大概有充分的這個溝通跟了解未來"},{"start":278.968,"end":279.108,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":309.528,"end":310.269,"text":"徐富癸議員徐富癸"},{"start":333.522,"end":349.427,"text":"部長最後本席還是針對我們颱風期間您到屏東來看災的時候本席提出來針對屏東的抽水站老舊的一個問題還有我們養殖專區這個電纜全面地下化的問題希望我們盡快提出一個對策"},{"start":351.095,"end":369.15,"text":"是 這個沖水站應該是可以如期進行那這個地下化的部分我們必須要再評估因為那個地下化萬一水進去的時候再維修更慘所以這個要怎麼做比較好我相信台電我們內部都有在檢討了明天會向委員報告"},{"start":373.994,"end":391.064,"text":"部長,我們不希望只是紋來紋去,在這階層內,這個環境蒙塞後,後環境再蒙這個問題因為這個極端氣候不是我們可以控制的因素所以希望經濟部能夠提出相關的規劃施工的期程,然後會後給本席一份素面資料好,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:46:30 - 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度但是我們北部的發電量"},{"start":488.419,"end":507.319,"text":"只有750億度也就是說我們北部其實短缺200億度所以經過我們了解就是因為南電北送才造成線路的損耗而且我們這個電力的損耗損耗6.41度相當我們人民就損失了23億元的電費"},{"start":510.479,"end":535.701,"text":"跟委員報告桃園地區因為大部分都是屬於高壓用戶就是工廠蠻多的這些工廠在去年跟前年大概是因為景氣比較不好所以它用電下降大概是這個因素造成所以我要跟部長總經理來提醒一下目前看起來真的就是我們北部的電就是不夠用所以你南電北送你造成很大的損耗而且你這個"},{"start":537.362,"end":538.063,"text":"希望給我們一個確確的原因"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:18 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{"start":59.076,"end":81.713,"text":"就是現在交通部還是堅持要有區間測速那也不是說一定不可以但是我們是希望說能夠每一個度段可以去檢討他到底對於交通安全有沒有幫助我舉幾個沒有幫助的例子比如說像2022年那時候新北市就曾經在重新橋急車道有試辦過區間測速結果發現試辦的結果區間測速設下去反而車禍增加了所以後來這個區間測速就把它取消"},{"start":89.33,"end":104.272,"text":"臺北市也有類似的狀況本來居然測數在自強隧道跟辛亥隧道裝設的時候啊認為說很棒他是一個交安神器但是他設在辛亥隧道就發現車禍的事故發生的件數就向上增加"},{"start":104.933,"end":122.187,"text":"可見區間測速他不是萬靈丹那我們也常常看到網路上有很多人其實是反對區間測速就認為說區間測速不見得可以達到降低交通事故的效果但是我們看到交通部的回應這個是道安司針對區間測速的回應"},{"start":124.108,"end":140.759,"text":"回答很自私他說根據國外的研究速度越快造成死亡情形越嚴重車速每小時30這個我當然知道但是車速跟區間車速是兩回事你設定單點的速限跟你整個路段的區間車速是兩回事"},{"start":141.819,"end":157.331,"text":"委員我跟您報告您的上一頁其實也有提到是新北市政府在重新喬的機車道啟用區間測速新北市政府下一段臺北市的交工處與自強隧道與辛亥隧道裝設區間測速所以基本上"},{"start":160.734,"end":160.934,"text":"李卓人議員﹗"},{"start":189.997,"end":190.197,"text":"主席"},{"start":215.771,"end":216.312,"text":"同意報告委員"},{"start":237.509,"end":253.335,"text":"但是區間測數裝或不裝這是地方政府來決定的我是希望說地方部因為你是最高不是對的地方我覺得還是因為你們是道安的實際上不是交通部在裡面是可是你們是道不然你們不要有道安司了嘛你們有這個單位就是因為你們是最高主管機關嘛"},{"start":254.415,"end":282.225,"text":"所以是不是可以針對區間測數這件事情然後去跟你剛講的地方政府去做一個通盤的了解就是說因為我覺得是看路段有的路段就確實是不適合區間測數的全國新的通盤檢討這個可能要由內政部的警政署他們去做會比較恰當不一定是由交通部但是委員如果希望交通部能夠去關心因為道安也是你們的業務範圍但是執法面不是我們對對對可是規劃面是嗎"},{"start":286.038,"end":311.118,"text":"我覺得大家不要這樣推來推去啦這樣推來推去沒有意思啦如果你希望我們去跟他們溝通我們一定會去溝通啊部長你們是交通部嘛也有道安司嘛那道安的最高上位就是交通要安全嘛對那作為一個主管機關如果說這跟我無關那個地方政府或者是說那個是警察局警政署跟我無關我覺得這樣就有點沒意思了啦"},{"start":312.363,"end":312.603,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:28:20 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這部分來請我們部長再盡量多幫忙好"},{"start":103.929,"end":109.555,"text":"還有針對我們國道1號楊梅交流道這個北出的閘道因為現在常常衍生很多交通的問題"},{"start":119.085,"end":141.901,"text":"因為這個陽梅交流道北出閘道它現在有兩個閘道都是銜接台一線那常常往埔心方向的地方它鄰近台一線跟裕城路口所以它這個路口反應的時間很短因為它大概只有300公尺所以用路人常常在這邊都反應不及常常車子也壓到曹化線而且"},{"start":142.481,"end":142.601,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":164.838,"end":164.858,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":184.673,"end":188.015,"text":"明年會來辦理因為他必須要經過規劃跟設計他跟地方在民意來做規劃應該明年內可以把它做起來"},{"start":204.019,"end":227.729,"text":"就是是整個做好是嗎對對對對連規劃到施工完成應該是那就希望因為這個影響很久而且這部分居然提出來大家要配合地方因為他的交通改善必須配合地方交通局對對因為這個市府他已經提出了說等高工局說已經交辦給分局可是目前都還沒有答覆有有我們有在作業中"},{"start":228.109,"end":250.938,"text":"好這部分盡快能夠解釋真的目前來講研議是可以解決我們這邊交通擁捨而且常常造成交通意外的狀況還有另外一個我們國道1號幼師交流道就是我們陽梅幼師工業區跟幼師擴大工業區那個交流道那國道1號幼師交流道他的南出的閘道"},{"start":252.078,"end":275.404,"text":"現在因為南出右轉的閘道往新屋方向就是青年路跟我們高思路它形成一個大型的路口那現在常常也是發生交通擁捨交通意外那現在本身交通局是用號字管制可是現在還是沒有辦法改善反而使這個南出的閘道造成回堵"},{"start":276.004,"end":302.87,"text":"那目前我們也 地方也演繹市府也演繹就是說針對高工局用地的範圍內把南向右轉的閘道盡量再靠右移讓他這個右轉的閘道跟高思路可以做成一個斜交路口避免車子出來要左轉高思路又跟青年路直行的車輛又造成衝突所以他這一部分"},{"start":304.363,"end":328.628,"text":"我相信這個部份應該交通部高工局應該都很清楚因為這個已經困擾地方非常非常多年然後一直找不到一個方案然後目前研議出來這個方案看起來應該是可以解決我們左轉高思路跟青年路車輛衝突也能夠讓我們高速公路南下出來陽梅右思交流道這部分交通讓他順暢"},{"start":330.273,"end":351.679,"text":"基本上跟委員報告就是說這個又是交道其實我們已經改過改過兩三次了對啊但是這次裡面最後的一個結果的話就應該要地方配合所以他需要他的一個同意才可以來再再往外去擴充那這個部分的話那個桃園市政府交通局他們原則上是同意這部分我們會會來盡快來辦設計然後做一個調整"},{"start":353.94,"end":380.165,"text":"對 因為我剛剛為什麼講它是右市工業區跟右市擴大工業區這個上班的人潮非常非常多的車流量非常的大然後而且一直處理很久一直沒有辦法處理那現在交通局跟地方大家協調發現就是因為左轉高市路的車輛就是右車交通道出來右轉要左轉進去高市路的車輛跟青年路的車輛常常在那邊"},{"start":380.945,"end":381.666,"text":"那這部分 這部分"},{"start":402.882,"end":421.162,"text":"據我們了解高工局也已經交辦北分局那我們今天提出來就是希望能夠盡快來處理地方政府要同意的話地方政府要同意他同意我們就會來做好就是地方政府有提出來那但是他現在還沒給我們同意嗎我們有一個設計方案設計方案要提出來給他們他們再做確認就好了"},{"start":423.925,"end":436.332,"text":"好請部長跟局長這部分盡快幫我們處理因為現在因為這部分市府提出來就是希望我們盡快來完成所以希望本席在這邊催促我們來盡快把它規劃好趕快給他們一個方案好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:10:38 - 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時間暫停"},{"start":88.438,"end":106.071,"text":"這個對地方的觀光來講很重要進度的部分我請台鐵來跟您報告好請跟委員報告現在我們正在擬定董事長也跟我去看過對我看過三次對我們就依據先前我們去會刊的一個方式我們現在在報部程序"},{"start":106.411,"end":107.111,"text":"臺中地區大眾捷運系統整體入網的評估計畫"},{"start":132.544,"end":137.408,"text":"重德豐原縣經過很多人潮密集還有學區整體效應非常大請問部長我們什麼時候要核定補助地方的經費你們什麼時候啟動可行性評估"},{"start":156.204,"end":184.112,"text":"那第三個議題也就是我一定要充分給你建議一定要延伸到風源隔壁就是神崗對我們社靠交流都一定要延伸到神崗來請做說明這三點好跟委員報告這條線的這個可行性研究的這個核定對我們來講經費的部分我們有跟臺中市政府那邊有溝通過他們目前的想法是比較高但是我們因為有一定的計算公式依我們的計算公式大概是1500萬左右"},{"start":186.635,"end":207.851,"text":"一千五百萬左右那中央補助的比例差不多一千一百萬左右但是臺中市政府跟我們說現在發包不太容易那我們會協助他來做發包可行性研究的部分我們會趕快來做一定要跟地方好好溝通趕快去把它完成以完成為目標我們這兩天有跟臺中市政府的相關單位有去溝通了那我們要這個經費呢你暫定了嗎您是說這個可言的部分嗎可言已經說了"},{"start":214.807,"end":239.161,"text":"那預算的部分要等他可行可言出來我們就依照要高額的補助我們台中因為台中不斷那接下來一個議題崇德這個豐原縣要延伸到這個神崗因為他在隔壁而已這個您積極在爭取因為他交流到對我覺得這個部分可以在可言的過程當中我們跟台中市政府來溝通一定要納入把這個部分把它納入來討論"},{"start":239.761,"end":240.021,"text":"臺中山海環線卡關10年"},{"start":260.475,"end":278.646,"text":"在交通委員會本席也跟你的次長討論過也就是我們修正為三個指向三個指向在海線以及山線的部分那麼我們現在臺中市政府積極在研議積極在修正依照你們的指示所以我們盡快會送上來送上來也承諾要盡快去審核核定我們的目標也就是趕快執行那接下來就是甲貨線"},{"start":288.272,"end":288.713,"text":"假貨線目前的進度"},{"start":295.314,"end":317.07,"text":"三個指向其他兩個指向您應該都很清楚在進度上您都沒有問題假後線是一個新增的路線那新增的路線有兩個可能性就是第一個可能性由台鐵他們去研議有沒有這個需求性有需求性或許台鐵可以做那第二個可能性其實要由地方政府來研議如果地方政府他們研議有可能性可以由地方來贏"},{"start":318.291,"end":321.232,"text":"議員您在要求的部分我們有理解到您的要求理解到是要不要積極去推動"},{"start":342.874,"end":367.487,"text":"我剛剛有說過因為它過去不是一條原本就有的鐵道它是新增的鐵道那新增的鐵道我們會由台鐵去研議有沒有這個需求有這個需求我們大概會做不是如此的回答本席不同意因為這已經是由行政院合併將這一條綠線拆成三項指向所以這是既定政策務必要去執行本席告訴你"},{"start":368.135,"end":392.231,"text":"我們也希望能夠往前推動啦其實當時我在擔任議員的時候趕快去追蹤你自己本身也一直講了很多次積極追蹤進度一定要推動好不好認同嗎進度的部分我來了解沒問題最後一個議題也就是我們國道四號清水道風源段我們當時2001年的時候你後風交流道設置西入東出"},{"start":393.26,"end":409.057,"text":"哪有一個建設只做一半,你的東路西出沒有害了我們整個,我們每一天都在那邊塞車你中央政府所做的,到現在人民在痛苦"},{"start":409.878,"end":425.066,"text":"所以本席具體建議東立西出的閘道它造成後裏豐原往潭子北屯我們的北屯潭柱到奧立這一些都在這邊出路交流量人口數急劇的增加"},{"start":426.207,"end":426.547,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":454.764,"end":468.072,"text":"10年前那個地方的交通量可能還沒有到達那個程度那現在10年後確實那個地方開始有在塞車了所以有這樣的需求我們來協助看地方政府的部分你的可行性評估你趕快協助"},{"start":469.827,"end":489.002,"text":"你趕快協助我們務必要做你已經說了人口增加到這個地方沒有問題委員但是這個必須要地方政府來提出我們地方政府提出你給我撥走那個可行性評估當然講清楚市府要提出我們地方政府提出可行性評估你們來補助你同意補助嗎我們趕快會提出可行性評估的部分由地方自求"},{"start":497.845,"end":510.682,"text":"這是你中央你中央當時只有做半套啊那頂多是200萬左右的經費啊你幫我導著你當時你一定有預期效果"},{"start":512.15,"end":519.715,"text":"你只有做半套當然是你的責任來可行性評估我們台中市政府等一下等一下可行性評估趕快提出來因為這是面臨目前我們社會所需好不好我們市府提出你來補助好不好部長等一下我們也請你回來後面的規劃設計交通部會來協助但是過去可能沒有的案例沒有你要照程序可行性評估對不對"},{"start":541.738,"end":562.467,"text":"部長不是錢的問題啊對啊錢是問題啊我也很想協助對但是要看他們的規定上可不可以這是第一個當然可以因為你做笨套地方政府的部分我們盡量來協助我們地方政府來提出你來補助好不好因為目前需要這個方式嘛部長你請你回答我"},{"start":563.362,"end":582.108,"text":"你請你回答我中央政府只做雜道做一邊導致目前我們這樣子的擁擠沒有理由不解決我們所以本期具體建議可行性評估由台中市政府提出你們來補助我們趕快研擬不要再拖頭了我一年要增加多少人口"},{"start":583.666,"end":600.615,"text":"好 我們來討論有沒有這樣的可能性不是討論可能性 你要答應我我希望朝這個方向好 朝這個方向所以要趕快來努力要不然你做半套導致我們擠得這麼嚴重尤其我們的北端淡柱這一個區塊風源是人口數急劇增加最多"},{"start":601.015,"end":602.997,"text":"臺商市政府提出可行性評估的方案上來你來補助好不好好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:00:09 - 14:10:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155631","gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（14時）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。首先邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。你來自臺中，也經過臺中民意的洗禮過，所以你更了解全國的路網，所以我們實質來討論我們自己的家──臺中。2019年，當時的交通部林佳龍部長也非常關心，他公開承諾連結苗栗三義跟臺中后里的舊山線復駛，而你在當議員的時候，也非常極力地來推動。同時他也承諾經費15億由中央全額來負擔。這關係到整個地方的發展跟觀光，所以大家非常期待。時任的三個部長都去看，所以當時我在總質詢也特別邀請你趕快回來，你也答應儘速來看。請教舊山線復駛的進度為何？你什麼時候要來看？儘速來看！"],["陳部長世凱：這個對地方的觀光來講很重要，進度的部分，我請臺鐵來跟您報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請。"],["杜董事長微：現在我們正在擬定我們的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：董事長也跟我去看過。"],["杜董事長微：對，我看過三次。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["杜董事長微：我們就依據先前我們去會勘的方式，現在在報部程序。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經要報部，所以部長更要力挺，到地方來看。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望在第四任的部長──你儘速來完成，有沒有信心？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有信心？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有努力，有沒有信心？"],["陳部長世凱：有啦！信心一定有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有信心，一定要達成。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，本席要請問2021年我們提報的臺中地區大眾捷運系統整體路網評估計畫，那麼崇德豐原線經過了很多人潮非常密集的地方，還有學區，你也非常清楚，整體效應非常大。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我直接請問部長，什麼時候要核定補助地方的經費？你們什麼時候啟動可行性評估？第三個議題，也就是我一定要充分給你建議，一定要延伸到豐原隔壁的神岡，就是社口交流道一定要延伸到神岡。請說明這三點。"],["陳部長世凱：這一條線可行性研究的核定，對我們來講，經費的部分，我們有跟臺中市政府溝通過，他們目前的想法比較高，因為有一定的計算公式，依我們的計算公式大概是1,500萬左右，中央補助的比例差不多1,100萬左右。但是臺中市政府跟我們說，現在發包不太容易，我們會協助它來發包，可行性研究的部分，我們會趕快來做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可行性的部分一定要跟地方好好溝通，趕快把它完成，以完成為目標。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。我們這兩天有跟臺中市政府相關單位溝通了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經費呢？你暫定了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：您是說可研的部分嗎？可行性研究的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可研已經說了。"],["陳部長世凱：預算的部分要等可行性研究……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可研出來，我們就依照……"],["陳部長世凱：對，就是照地方算出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要高額補助臺中，因為臺中不斷……","接下來另一個議題，崇德豐原線要延伸到神岡，因為在隔壁而已。因為交流道……"],["陳部長世凱：這個您積極在爭取嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得這個部分可以在可研的過程當中，我們跟臺中市政府來溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要納入。"],["陳部長世凱：把這個部分納入討論，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你來自我們家鄉，你知道這個地方整天都在塞。"],["陳部長世凱：但是可行性研究的部分還是由地方政府下去做，這個部分我們會協助來溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們當然希望你要協助溝通，納入神岡。","接下來，臺中山海環線卡關十年到現在，本席在交通委員會也跟次長討論過，也就是我們修正為三個子項，三個子項在海線以及山線的部分，現在臺中市政府積極在研議，也依照你們的指示積極在修正，會儘快送上來，你們也要承諾儘快審核、核定我們的目標，接著也就趕快執行。","接下來就是甲后線，如果甲后線沒有串起來，它不是真正的山海環線，請問甲后線目前的進度？三個子項之一……"],["陳部長世凱：其他兩個子項，您應該都很清楚，進度上，您都沒問題。甲后線是一個新增的路線，新增的路線有兩個可能性，第一個可能性是由臺鐵研議有沒有這個需求性，有需求性或許臺鐵可以做。第二個可能性其實要由地方政府來研議，如果地方政府研議有可行性，可以由地方來新增路線。這是新增路線。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你要清楚，它不是新增，而是整條道路裡頭的三項之一，所以它不是新增。"],["陳部長世凱：我的意思是，這條軌道過去是不存在的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我特別要求甲后線務必要串聯起來，才是真正的山海環線，要積極追蹤進度，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：委員要求的部分，我們有理解到了，我們有理解到您的要求。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：理解到，要不要積極去推動？"],["陳部長世凱：我剛剛有說過，因為它不是一條原本就有的鐵道，而是新增的鐵道，新增的鐵道會由臺鐵研議有沒有這個需求，有這個需求大概就會做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是！如此的回答，本席不同意。"],["陳部長世凱：或者是我希望臺中市政府也會來研議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為已經由行政院核定將這一條路線拆成三項子項，所以這是既定政策，務必要去執行，本席告訴你！"],["陳部長世凱：我們也希望能夠往前推動，當時我在擔任議員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：趕快去追蹤！你自己本身也講了很多次。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我來追蹤。我當時……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：積極追蹤進度，一定要推動，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：認同嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：進度的部分，我來了解，沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，也就是國道4號清水到豐原段，2001年后豐交流道設置西入東出，哪有一個建設只做一半？沒有東入西出，害當地每一天都在塞車，這是中央政府所做的，現在卻讓人民在痛苦，所以本席具體建議要有東入西出的匝道。后里、豐原往潭子、北屯以及北屯、潭子到后里都在這邊出入，車流量、人口數急遽增加，車流量非常大。當時的匝道只有做半套，因為政府事情做半套，造成人民壅塞，我認為你理當有責任要趕快把它做好，所以本席具體建議，你們趕快把錢給地方政府進行可行性評估。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那沒幾百萬，你應該趕快讓我們做。"],["陳部長世凱：十年前那個地方的交通量可能還沒有到達那個程度，十年後確實那個地方開始有在塞車，所以有這樣的需求，我們來協助看地方政府的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你趕快協助做可行性評估，我們務必要做。你已經說了，人口增加到這個地方……"],["陳部長世凱：可行性研究沒有問題，但是這個必須要地方政府來提出，它提出……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：地方政府提出，你補助我們做可行性評估。"],["趙局長興華：我們請市府儘快來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要講清楚！"],["陳部長世凱：市府要提出，我們來補助。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：地方政府提出可行性評估，你們來補助，那才幾百萬而已，你同意補助嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。問題是它還沒提出。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們會趕快提出。"],["趙局長興華：可行性評估的部分由地方自籌。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有！你們要補，這是因為中央當時只有做半套，頂多需要兩百萬左右的經費。你當時一定有預期效果，卻只有做半套，當然是你的責任。可行性評估臺中市政府……"],["趙局長興華：這個半套的產生不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：等一下、等一下！可行性評估趕快提出來，因為這是目前我們社會所需。"],["陳部長世凱：這個由市府來提出。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：市府提出，你來補助，好不好？"],["趙局長興華：後面的規劃設計等等都是我們這邊來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長等一下，我沒有請你回答。"],["陳部長世凱：後面的規劃設計，交通部會來協助，過去可能沒有這樣的案例，但是我們來溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有！要照程序，可行性評估才200萬而已，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：不是錢的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：錢是問題！"],["陳部長世凱：我也很想協助，但是要看他們的規定可不可以，這是第一個。第二個，地方……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然可以，因為你做半套！"],["陳部長世凱：地方政府的部分，我們儘量來協助，跟他們溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：地方政府提出，你來補助，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我希望朝這個方向，但是也要了解一下高公局的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為目前需要這樣的方式！部長，請你回答我，中央政府匝道只做一邊，導致目前我們這樣的擁擠，沒有理由不解決，所以本席具體建議，可行性評估由臺中市政府提出，你們來補助，我們趕快研擬，不要再蹉跎了，當地一年增加多少人口！"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來討論有沒有這樣的可能性。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是討論可能性，你要答應我。"],["陳部長世凱：我希望朝這個方向，但也要看高公局……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：朝這個方向，所以要趕快來努力。要不然，你做半套，導致我們擠得這麼嚴重，尤其我們的北屯、潭子、豐原這一個區塊是人口數急遽增加最多……"],["陳部長世凱：對啦！跟十年前的計畫完全不一樣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不能再慢一步不做，對不對？這是中央政府當時所做，你如果幫我們做整套，我們沒有問題，現在半套，我們也接受這個痛苦，但是你要幫我們解決，好不好？臺中市政府提出可行性評估的方案上來，你來補助。"],["陳部長世凱：大家一起來努力，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來邀請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:06:17","end_time":"2024-10-16T14:30:13+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155630","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","duration":377,"start_time":"2024-10-16T14:23:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b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郭部長有請請郭部長"},{"start":18.308,"end":36.721,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了這我先在這邊讚美你一下之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題你答應說本席要來這個現場會堪你也在非會期的時候說到做到這我先讚美你一下你有說到做到第二個其實我跟大部分在黨委員不見得一樣其實我有的時候蠻欣賞部長心直口快的個性"},{"start":37.361,"end":64.006,"text":"有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎"},{"start":65.234,"end":90.974,"text":"因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔在這你這個金句連發也真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點"},{"start":92.962,"end":118.824,"text":"所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題"},{"start":120.365,"end":148.092,"text":"所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫?沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔?真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準"},{"start":148.672,"end":174.477,"text":"我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟了解"},{"start":175.517,"end":190.309,"text":"這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況"},{"start":192.31,"end":210.653,"text":"比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎"},{"start":212.195,"end":214.597,"text":"這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任"},{"start":231.733,"end":239.536,"text":"阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我意思說有沒有一個有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣做這樣的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿台灣沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫阿是"},{"start":250.859,"end":277.951,"text":"我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本"},{"start":278.744,"end":298.84,"text":"這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看最近比如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?"},{"start":300.24,"end":324.573,"text":"我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣"},{"start":325.313,"end":351.661,"text":"鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講第二個提醒嘛內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們"},{"start":353.562,"end":372.727,"text":"我們在總質詢討論的時候是很多政策其實我給你時間做修正沒有問題電業法的部分可以修正當然沒有問題但我同時也提醒電業法既然都可以修正我們的能源配比它其實也可以修正我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快直面問題的勇氣帶來政策調整的空間希望部長堅持謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:23:56 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14:30:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155630","gazette":{"lineno":1507,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（14時24分）謝謝主席，郭部長，有請。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安，辛苦了！我先在這邊讚美你一下，之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題，你答應本席要來現場會勘，你在非會期的時候也說到做到了，這點我先讚美你一下，你有說到做到。","其次，我跟大部分的在場委員不見得一樣，其實我有的時候滿欣賞部長心直口快的個性，比如說在討論一些重大議題的時候，你就直接講問題在哪裡，解方可能有困難，比方說你講供電不足，要蓋個電廠，到處都反對。對不對？直接把問題攤開來講，有些時候反而是比較好的做法，因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心，那就不用去談問題的解方了。","基於你心直口快的個性，當然就是我接下來要問的菲律賓的事情，你今天早上說這是草率發言，真的是草率發言嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為大家希望我這麼講啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：大家希望你這麼講喔？"],["郭部長智輝：所有的媒體都希望我這樣講。"],["牛委員煦庭：蛤！那我就跟大家不一樣！不過你這樣金句連發也真是嚇我一跳！","我要問部長的是，我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系，有沒有針對跨國的電網串連有任何研究計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：我想，在所有的論壇上面都有討論到這一點，所以你可以看得出來，像新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠（4,300公里）的電到新加坡？其實新加坡自己本身不需要這樣子，而是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網，大家互相support。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以它不只是有國家內部的研究計畫，甚至有世界、國際合作格局高度的計畫支撐，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯，這個也就是民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣的命題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我就問了嘛！所以我覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊！現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫，它背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：是。它等著我提出啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：等著你提出哦？真的還假的啊？"],["郭部長智輝：當然啊！因為這都是在論壇裡面討論過的事情……"],["牛委員煦庭：只是在論壇裡面討論？"],["郭部長智輝：所以我說草率發言就是我沒有按照過去大家習慣的，有上位計畫，然後有實施計畫，確定以後才來發布這件事情，所以我對這樣子的不精準感到非常抱歉，我願意跟大家道歉，因為我的發言不精準，造成大家的誤會。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子的壓力的原因，因為臺灣的供電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦，你提出各種方法也是盡你所能，其實我覺得沒有什麼關係。如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話，那你提出來確實是不太妥，但是值得來做一下研究跟瞭解啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是第一個。但我也要針對這樣子的概念做幾個提醒，第一個，它一定要有強而有力的上位計畫，而且不只是我們國內的計畫，還要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景，這是其一。第二，這樣子的國際合作計畫要考量實務上的狀況，比如說在以前全球化的時代，大家說我們電網串連，相對把這個成本降下來，也讓各國的供電穩定度上升，這些方向都是正確的，但是部長，菲律賓真的喔！以我們對他們國內跟現在地緣政治風險的評估，它真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎？你們在論壇裡面有沒有討論過這樣的具體風險呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，這個計畫本來是美國、日本跟菲律賓的領導他們確定的一個呂宋經濟走廊這樣的計畫，這裡面有各個分責的責任……"],["牛委員煦庭：那我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫，你說沒有，可是這樣聽起來像有啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這個不是我的上位啊！它是美、日、菲的計畫啦……"],["牛委員煦庭：美、日、菲的計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：不是我們的計畫。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我們有沒有被納在裡面？"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣沒有在裡面。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有在裡面哦？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，那是美、日、菲的計畫，是我瞭解以後，我去跟他們溝通，說這裡面是不是有一些可以讓臺灣參與，所以它是一個獨立的計畫。"],["牛委員煦庭：經過今天一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後，我們到底要不要繼續做這個事情？"],["郭部長智輝：我會開始開論壇、繼續討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要繼續討論？好。第一個是要有明確的計畫。第二個我要講的就是，你的計畫裡面要有一定的透明度跟知情權，也就是說，我現在做這件事情，我要有所本，這樣才不會變成草率發言，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：假如有這樣的計畫，也要適時來跟人民大眾溝通，因為它是一個重大的政策……"],["郭部長智輝：是！"],["牛委員煦庭：知情權是很重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：不然比如說聯想到雲豹的投資，也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫，對不對？但是被連結的時候，你頭就很痛了嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟它一點關係都沒有！他們……"],["牛委員煦庭：如果你沒有辦法講出背後的一套，比方說我有另外一個計畫、然後它是什麼，就會陷入這樣的風險。"],["郭部長智輝：我相信它一定不是去開發這個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣一個計畫，它也沒有那個能力啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：如果有這樣一個計畫，它的資訊公開、交換意見的強度要夠，不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易，這是我要給你的第二個提醒。"],["郭部長智輝：是，一定！"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟耗資甚鉅，剛剛部長在回答其他委員提問的時候有講，可能是鼓勵廠商或怎麼樣，鼓勵廠商的時候難免碰觸到我剛剛講的第二個提醒嘛！就是內線交易等等。","第三，我們的電網到現在為止，我們上次總質詢才討論過，基本上還是台電抓總，台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常、非常大，那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情，也希望經濟部審慎的思考。好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我喜歡你的心直口快，但是你之前在總質詢的時候也講擔心自己、兩年等等，立了軍令狀，我們在總質詢討論的時候，其實是針對很多政策給你時間修正，這沒有問題……"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：電業法的部分可以修正，當然沒有問題，但我同時也提醒，電業法既然都可以修正，我們的能源配比其實也可以修正。我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快、直面問題的勇氣，帶來政策調整的空間，希望部長堅持。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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號英國關閉了最後一座燃煤發電廠這個新聞您知道嗎"},{"start":132.279,"end":138.762,"text":"這個我知道好 那麼英國他們在2015年的時候他們的當時保守黨政府就已經確立了2025年之前要關閉高碳排的燃煤發電廠可是在此同時我們看民進黨政府當時做了什麼決定當時他們修法希望能夠在2025年台灣要進入非核家園當時就修了電業法"},{"start":155.931,"end":159.074,"text":"還好後來因為我們公投修了電業法把2025年非核家園的這個相關的規定給修掉了所以到現在我們還可以繼續再討論核電廠是不是可以繼續研議的這個議題不過就是無論如何但是看起來現在民黨政府好像也不打算要將核電廠研議部長您在您任內有可能"},{"start":184.614,"end":207.603,"text":"可以做到希望能夠宣告核電廠營業的這個政策嗎我想經濟部的立場是這樣的所有的電我們都希望特別是綠電那您剛才講的這個部分我想我們有三個前提第一個就是說全民有共識全民當然有高度的共識然後第二個是它是安全的"},{"start":208.393,"end":216.716,"text":"第三個是核廢料可以處理的這三個前提如果都能夠達到我們可以繼續往下來討論這三個前提其實全台灣都有共識而且我們都有高度的這個核能科技方面的素養接下來我們看下一頁這個我們知道其實現在美國歐美國家的科技業龍頭其實大家都已經紛紛的這個採取要使用核電而且甚至連這個買購買這個相關的電力能源契約都已經改採清楚的指示"},{"start":238.322,"end":238.842,"text":"請問部長您知道我們停電每停一度電"},{"start":266.657,"end":286.91,"text":"人民可以得到多少的補償這個我不知道您不知道那您想想看您覺得我們這樣子這個停電這個兩個小時我們可以得到多少的賠償我是不是請台電的總經理跟您報告趕快吧報告委員停電是一個小時大概幾個"},{"start":291.045,"end":300.143,"text":"你也不清楚我告訴大家這停電一天一天24小時之內每一度電只賠1.33元"},{"start":302.826,"end":326.578,"text":"我告訴大家我們現在台電所訂定的這個消費性用電服務契約裡面的規定是非常非常不合理這還是只是類似補償的概念喔因為我這段時間裡面我沒有用到電所以我的電費是扣除可是讓人有沒有想到我們停電所造成的人民的財產的損失甚至有些可能還會影響到他的身體健康帶呼吸器的人他沒有電的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":328.3,"end":345.637,"text":"這個問題是非常嚴重的但我要講的就是消費性用電服務契約裡面規定極不合理而且大家知道如果說是因為台電的用電不足或者說自己故障等等這些原因也是賠償的補償的一點點的錢"},{"start":348.401,"end":361.882,"text":"這是極不合理變成說錯誤的能源政策所造成的缺點必須要全民來負擔那本期在這邊要給你們一個提示當然我們來看看德國你看德國是如何能夠真的走入變成是非核家園"},{"start":363.291,"end":365.972,"text":"他能夠保證全國不停電至少不大規模的停電如果停電的話怎麼辦德國的這個相關規定地壓供電電網連接使用辦法裡面規定如果說因為電力公司故意或重大過測行為造成用電戶的受損害不是只有補償電費而已還包含要賠償相關損害費用的還要負損害賠償責任"},{"start":387.902,"end":394.707,"text":"如果是因為不是基於故意或重大過失造成用電貨的財產損失他的賠償責任總而是定額賠償每戶最高可以請求5000歐元的賠償5000歐元是什麼概念?就可以賠償17萬5000塊台幣這是非常高的所以德國的電力公司有辦法做到這個程度可是台電有辦法嗎?"},{"start":413.124,"end":436.812,"text":"我希望台電要研議相關的這個契約如何的修正改正能夠符合人民的期待我們不要平白無故的因為政府錯誤的能源政策然後造成我們停電然後停電之後的所有的這個生命財產損失都要由我們人民自己去負責這是極不負責任的一個政策希望這個部長還有台電要重新研議謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:16:31 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報告委員是這樣子我們現在不管做任何一個電廠都要6年"},{"start":191.041,"end":192.142,"text":"請問一下你這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的?"},{"start":214.683,"end":220.818,"text":"你這個概念就是到海外設電廠而且你還研究了啊電也比較便宜啊電纜也沒問題這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的"},{"start":222.168,"end":250.76,"text":"其實我這個發想啊 孕育在我腦海裡面 多久了就是從這個美國他們4月份以後 4月份就發想了齁沒有 我大概在7月8月的時候 7月8月忽然間有這個構想也不是有這個構想嘛 這個是值得我這個研究部長我的問題都這麼簡單 你不要把簡單的話講複雜好不好這樣我也害怕你跟你部內的人溝通欸 都簡單的問題都講那麼複雜你是4月看到美國嘛 7、8月開始發想嘛 今天把它講出來嘛"},{"start":251.44,"end":280.253,"text":"有一個雲豹企業6月17號就宣布要在菲律賓蓋那個光電廠那你有沒有受到雲豹的啟發沒有你知道雲豹這個事嗎剛剛才知道剛剛才知道哇那部長你講你知道雲豹今天股價盤中一度漲一趴欸我不知道我報告委員所以你完全不是受到雲豹的啟發雲豹可能他有沒有經過我們投審會同意我不知道我回去要追這個條你要追這個條他沒有經過我投審會同意"},{"start":281.553,"end":305.731,"text":"對我們會對他產就就應該怎麼處理就怎麼處理他會怎麼處理啊我不知道我大概我們投審會是有個規範反正就是你不是因為雲報的關係啊扯這構想完全都沒有啦那你瞭解菲律賓現在台灣有在那邊設電廠多少嗎這個跟菲律賓的電廠是完全沒有關係的事情不是啦我台氣因為你是鼓勵台灣企業去那邊設電廠啊那目前有沒有企業在那邊設電廠有沒有"},{"start":307.401,"end":307.541,"text":"主席"},{"start":326.17,"end":346.01,"text":"你不是鼓勵台灣的企業去那邊設什麼?我們去那邊大概就是光電阿就是我們自己比較熟悉的光電或是風電嘛但是電廠不一樣那你是鼓勵我們企業去那邊設什麼?設光電阿或者是風電阿我的想法是這樣就是我們比較有能耐的那現在台灣有多少企業在那邊有光電跟風電?多少?"},{"start":350.006,"end":355.352,"text":"我在講嘛,我已經講過了,光電、風電跟地熱有多少?台灣企業在那邊做這個業務有多少?"},{"start":357.418,"end":380.103,"text":"你都不調查一下喔你不調查一下你就直接把這個構想講出來喔最後部長所以我跟你請教一下喔你有提到就是說要把高碳排氣液移到海外去啊說要乾坤大挪移這個是太天才了我跟你講我跟你講一個解決用電需求的方法你就把那個用電比較大的氣液把它趕到海外就好我們台灣就不會缺電了"},{"start":382.29,"end":392.647,"text":"怎麼會用這種方式來解決我們全世界都是在招商只有我們趕企業只是因為他碳排比較多那你要解決用電就把用電大戶趕走嘛"},{"start":393.766,"end":395.608,"text":"你講說要高碳牌企業移到海外"},{"start":413.72,"end":438.897,"text":"高碳牌遇到海外讓他在那個地方有競爭力啊那台灣的就業機會就少啦台灣的投資就少啦開玩笑我們台灣現在半導體跟AI的產業一直要進來啊這是高質化的這個產業對台灣的競爭力是提升的台灣的半導體產業進來不是因為被這些高碳牌企業卡住嗎這兩回事嘛是沒有錯是兩回事但是我們把這些產業"},{"start":441.639,"end":442.019,"text":"報告委員：葉元之"},{"start":465.33,"end":485.873,"text":"因為很多是上下游之間的logistic問題所以這個cost的問題我是建議說讓你到國外去可以大帶小的帶到國外去具有競爭力這個對他來講是好處的啦比如在台灣你的競爭力是減低的相當的抽象因為我時間到了就先這樣謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:08:16 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14:16:23","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155628","gazette":{"lineno":1375,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（14時8分）麻煩請經濟部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：您好。"],["葉委員元之：一樣啦，您的一番話造成大家在立法院討論一整天，所以代表你不能夠隨便亂講話，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["葉委員元之：按照你的計畫、你的構想，你的講法是你是要鼓勵企業還是政府在海外設電廠？是用哪一個方式？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是鼓勵企業。"],["葉委員元之：鼓勵企業？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以你是用鼓勵企業的方式，在海外設電廠，那你有提到會請AIT的人幫忙，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，這個呂宋經濟廊帶計畫是美國、日本、菲律賓他們所擬訂的。"],["葉委員元之：這我都知道，你只要針對我的問題回答就好，因為今天報紙都寫很清楚了。你有找AIT幫忙，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，因為他……"],["葉委員元之：有沒有嘛？部長，因為我時間有限，我沒辦法讓你從盤古開天開始講。你有沒有找AIT幫忙？"],["郭部長智輝：我想說這樣比較清楚一點。"],["葉委員元之：你有沒有找AIT幫忙？"],["郭部長智輝：我們找AIT幫忙是溝通嘛。"],["葉委員元之：有或沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：看他們這個project我們可不可以join。"],["葉委員元之：但是你有請他們幫忙溝通就對了。所以基本上我認為你說你是草率發言，我覺得你是改口，實際上你是有這個計畫啦！因為按照報紙的說法，你的計畫非常完整。第一個是你有原因，對不對？就是說新加坡到澳洲4,800公里都可以，為什麼我們跟呂宋島才差300公里就不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["葉委員元之：第二個，我們可以在海外買到比臺灣更便宜的電，你也講了。再來是你鼓勵企業。所以這個完全就是你的構想，但可能是不是話講太快了，受到某種壓力，所以忽然間又改口說：這是我的草率發言。我不相信一個經濟部長這麼大的官，每天都在草率發言啦！之前一下子說要核電，一下子又不要；現在說要在海外設電廠，然後又說不要。我個人不太相信啦！部長，你是受到什麼壓力？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就受到各位的指教……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你提出……"],["郭部長智輝：就說我隨便就發言了。"],["葉委員元之：所以你就改口了喔？"],["郭部長智輝：因為……"],["葉委員元之：哇！所以你現在就不做這事了喔？"],["郭部長智輝：我會這麼講，就是說我確實……"],["葉委員元之：大家只是……"],["郭部長智輝：我也是反省，講話太快了嘛！就是這樣子。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，大家只是想知道細節。你也提到，2030年以前要達到所謂的淨零嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：2030年不可能淨零喔！2050年才有可能淨零。"],["葉委員元之：你有提到一個2030的目標。"],["郭部長智輝：2030年是綠電30%的目標。"],["葉委員元之：今年是2024，你這個意思是說，如果海外可以買電的話，2030年就可以在淨零方面有所協助嘛！因此你這個電廠，就是近期會鼓勵去蓋了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，是這樣子，我們現在不管做任何一個電廠都要6年。我2030年要做到30%的……"],["葉委員元之：那報紙寫2030年，你是怎麼提出來的？"],["郭部長智輝：2030年，本來就在我們國內，我們台電所做的……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你提到2030年這個目標的原因，是因為你說你要在海外設電廠，其實……"],["郭部長智輝：不是、不是。"],["葉委員元之：報紙是這樣寫的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有喔！報紙不能夠代表我……"],["葉委員元之：那請問一下，你這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的？你這個概念，就是到海外設電廠，而且你還研究了，電也比較便宜，電纜也沒問題。這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的？"],["郭部長智輝：其實我這個發想孕育在我腦海裡面……"],["葉委員元之：多久了？"],["郭部長智輝：就是從美國他們4月份以後……"],["葉委員元之：4月份就發想了。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我大概在7月、8月的時候……"],["葉委員元之：7月、8月忽然間有這個構想。"],["郭部長智輝：也不是有這個構想，這個是值得我研究，而且我們有一些論點……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我的問題都這麼簡單，你不要把簡單的話講複雜，好不好？這樣我也害怕你跟部內的人溝通耶！簡單的問題都講那麼複雜。你是4月看到美國嘛！7、8月開始發想，今天把它講出來嘛！有一個雲豹企業6月17日就宣布要在菲律賓蓋光電廠，那你有沒有受到雲豹的啟發？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，完全……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，你知道雲豹這個事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：剛剛才知道雲豹在投資菲律賓……"],["葉委員元之：剛剛才知道？部長知道雲豹今天的股價盤中一度漲1%耶！"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：所以你完全不是受到雲豹的啟發？"],["郭部長智輝：我報告委員，雲豹有沒有經過我們投審會同意，我不知道，我回去要追這一條。"],["葉委員元之：你要追這一條？"],["郭部長智輝：它沒有經過投審會同意，我們會對它……應該要怎麼處理，就怎麼處理。"],["葉委員元之：那會怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道，大概我們投審會是有個規範。"],["葉委員元之：反正你不是因為雲豹的關係，有這個構想，完全都沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能。"],["葉委員元之：那你瞭解就菲律賓，現在臺灣在那邊設電廠的有多少嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個跟菲律賓的電廠是完全沒有關係的事情。"],["葉委員元之：不是，因為你是鼓勵臺灣企業去那邊設電廠嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["葉委員元之：那目前有沒有企業在那邊設電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：目前應該是沒有。"],["葉委員元之：沒有嘛！萬一有的話，結果你不去跟它買，你還鼓勵人家去設，再去跟它買，也很奇怪。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，基本上這樣子，會去那邊設電廠，也不會是臺灣的廠商。"],["葉委員元之：那你鼓勵外商去設喔？"],["郭部長智輝：那個是外國的廠商他們會去設。"],["葉委員元之：不是，你不是鼓勵臺灣的企業去那邊設嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不，我們去那邊大概就是光電，是我們自己比較熟悉的……"],["葉委員元之：對，光電……"],["郭部長智輝：或者是風電。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["郭部長智輝：那跟電廠不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：好，那你是鼓勵我們企業去那邊設什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：設光電，或者是風電。我的想法是，就是我們比較有能耐的，比較具有……"],["葉委員元之：好，那現在臺灣有多少企業在那邊有光電和風電？"],["郭部長智輝：我已經講過了，光電、風電和地熱。"],["葉委員元之：有多少？現在臺灣企業在那邊做這個業務的有多少，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不清楚。"],["葉委員元之：你都不調查一下喔！你不調查一下，你就直接把這個構想講出來。","最後我跟你請教，你有提到要把高碳排企業移到海外去，說要乾坤大挪移。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是……"],["葉委員元之：這個太天才了！我跟你講一個解決用電需求的方法，你就把用電比較大的企業趕到海外就好，我們臺灣就不會缺電了。你怎麼會用這種方式在解決哩？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，謝謝委員這樣的一個……"],["葉委員元之：全世界都是在招商，只有我們趕企業，只是因為它碳排比較多，那你要解決用電問題就把用電大戶趕走嘛！這是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，因噎廢食。"],["郭部長智輝：不是這個樣子。"],["葉委員元之：那是怎樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是讓這些用電大戶到海外去找到它有競爭力的地方，這也就是我境外觀念的一個概念。"],["葉委員元之：你說要高碳排企業移到海外，是你講的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：高碳排的移到海外，讓它在那個地方有競爭力啊！"],["葉委員元之：那臺灣的就業機會就少了，臺灣的投資就少了。"],["郭部長智輝：開玩笑，我們臺灣，現在半導體跟AI的產業一直要進來。"],["葉委員元之：所以就把它們……"],["郭部長智輝：這是高值化的產業，對臺灣的競爭力是提升的。"],["葉委員元之：不是，在臺灣，半導體產業進來，不是因為被這些高碳排企業卡住，這是兩回事，你不要把它綁在一起。"],["郭部長智輝：是沒有錯，是兩回事，但我們把這一些產業，它在臺灣沒有競爭力，我們帶到海外去讓它有競爭力，再迎接臺灣有競爭力的廠商、外商，讓它繼續進來。"],["葉委員元之：兩個沒有互相矛盾，我們同時也可以讓高碳排企業……只要可以做到淨零，我們沒有必要因噎廢食，這兩個是沒有衝突的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，報告委員，沒有競爭力其實很多是因為經濟規模的問題，很多是上下游之間的logistic問題，所以這個cost的問題，我是建議讓它到國外去，可以大帶小地帶到國外去，具有競爭力，這個對它來講是有好處的。留在臺灣，競爭力是減低的。"],["葉委員元之：相當抽象，因為我的時間到了，就先這樣，謝謝。"],["主席：請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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部長好 部長好 辛苦了 下午2點還這麼多委員在這邊質詢啊後面還有很多人繼續問了 我想當然主因當然這跟部長昨天的發言有很大的關係部長雖然說你剛剛已經跟委員們致歉了 但是我想繼續了解一下這個天馬行空的這個想法從何而來因為我想這個大家都看到新聞了 6月17號 雲報能源宣布他們在菲律賓來插集 採取太陽能"},{"start":47.114,"end":47.295,"text":"報告委員．"},{"start":62.919,"end":78.173,"text":"這兩件事情完全是獨立事件我也不清楚雲報公司到菲律賓去投資的這個事情我這個到菲律賓這個案件其實是我們在這個斯坂明夫他在創建這個所謂的"},{"start":82.916,"end":108.604,"text":"這個我看到你新聞上有回應你是在這個智庫上的這個各國大使給你建議的嘛這個他們啊這因為這個美國的大使日本的大使都在談這個所謂民主聯盟然後大家對未來的這個世界上面大家應該要互通這個在共同可以大家友好的部分所以才談到能源的部分那這個能源我個人認為因為"},{"start":111.027,"end":140.211,"text":"菲律賓、美國、日本在今年的4月他們的領導人共同簽了一個旅送經濟計畫這個剛剛尚偉回應過沒關係這我知道只是好奇啦如果這第一個點是說你不知道這事情但是你不知道也不應該啦坦白說如果我國廠商出去投資你沒有掌握這件事情本身也是有點奇怪我可以提醒一下部長了再來部長昨天講了這個去日本去菲律賓買這個綠電送回台灣價格比本土便宜"},{"start":140.771,"end":142.112,"text":"因為我們台灣土地是有限的然後我們的海岸也是有限的"},{"start":164.548,"end":182.348,"text":"但是綠能的業者他有經濟規模當他的這個經濟規模達到的時候他可以充分的降低他的成本好 謝謝部長提到了這就是企業經營的角度畢竟你從企業界來啦如果今天我們真的去國外買綠電比較便宜的話那我們國內幹嘛還要繼續發展這件事情呢"},{"start":183.068,"end":207.483,"text":"國內還是要發展這個綠電啊那成本高啊 如果從企業經營角度你今天從企業界來理論上你也知道說我們現在綠電成本可能相對比國外高嘛那既然你都覺得說去國外買的價格遠低於本土綠電那不是應該鼓勵我們國內的廠商去國外買綠電嗎這個 這有兩個不同的意義啦如果在國外可以幫助他降低成本"},{"start":208.403,"end":224.335,"text":"事實上他可以在國外去發揮,國內的產業可以到國外去發揮,這個是非常重要的成本觀念。今天提到這個日本或菲律賓的目的,就是因為你說去國外買這個綠電,對本土廠商來講比較便宜是嗎?"},{"start":227.125,"end":227.845,"text":"臺灣的市場太小了啦"},{"start":256.141,"end":276.754,"text":"我們不能夠讓台灣的廠商只看台灣這麼小的市場對不起時間不夠那我繼續講這個部長提到說這個2000億撥補給你2000億你可以讓大家未來可能未來兩年不漲電價這是你的承諾如果2000億之後漲了你準備下台這是你講的嗎對好那部長我們試算一個表格過去這些年過去10年來"},{"start":278.275,"end":298.944,"text":"臺電以前有賺錢所以有所謂的電價穩定準備金以前都用電價穩定準備金來撥補那從112年之後因為這個電價穩定準備金花完了臺電自己沒有錢了所以現在用政府預算來撥補所以陸陸續續一直在撥補來包含政府之前增至2500億那你現在提到還要再2000億部長我們看一張圖我們試算一下2000億什麼概念兩年"},{"start":299.804,"end":323.435,"text":"如果台灣2300萬人每人負擔就是8696元兩年電價有12期電費平均一個人要付725元以四口之家他等於我什麼我就像我很省電我是民生用電啊我在家用電啊但是你四口之家等於莫名其妙如果真的政府今天立法院同意你撥補2000億給台電我等於從每個人口袋裡面每個每一期電費掏出2900元電費出來"},{"start":326.627,"end":331.628,"text":"政府是股東要拿2000出來幫台電去補這個2000億的缺口那你要怎麼樣做到後續這兩年能夠確定成本不會再上漲那你才能夠把盈餘補回來"},{"start":356.095,"end":385.12,"text":"因為這個兩千億是在補台電的財務啦這兩千億的錢不就是人民納稅錢嗎又不是你拿出來的錢因為為什麼需要這個錢是因為這個過去三年我們給民生的這個電價基本上是都虧錢的每一度電要虧一塊錢以上部長你這樣講的話意思就是你等於是變相用漲電價的方式補回來嘛那你今天使用者付費如果使用者付費的觀念要建立起來的話"},{"start":385.64,"end":388.722,"text":"我補貼的都是小的用戶啊小的商家啊、有住家啊這一些就是比較弱勢的啊"},{"start":408.627,"end":432.561,"text":"所以委員您的指教就是說使用者付費當然第一個使用者付費 第二個如果你真的堅持要這2000億你要提出 你要今天等於你在辦公室增資的意思嘛你要發行新股嘛 2000億要去填補過去的虧損嘛"},{"start":433.542,"end":458.744,"text":"那兩千億給你之後你總是要提出一個財務規劃我們提出就是我們會努力來改善這個整個財務規的這個結構成本結構那你要算出來你要提供報告讓民眾讓立法院知道說你的兩千億未來兩年你要怎麼樣去把這個缺口補起來然後保證電力就會上漲好不好報告委員那個是補貼不是增資所以我跟您如果是股東的話我也鄭重在這裡跟你報告"},{"start":459.565,"end":484.645,"text":"就是說我們會去努力這個補貼了他這個財務的這個過去的損失啊這個損失是因為去照顧我們的中小家庭好沒關係因為主席站起來代表時間到了部長你這個2000億補進去過去的缺口補起來未來兩年你的這個臺電公司或整個台灣的能源結構的成本你應該算出來讓我們知道2000億補了可能"},{"start":485.58,"end":512.138,"text":"你承諾兩年不漲電價那原理是什麼?原因是什麼?我覺得你要提出報告可以嗎?我認為我努力然後得到的這個結果會讓這個電價審議委員讓他來判斷不漲價部長那你有沒有辦法提出這個試算報告?提出財務規劃?要不然你怎麼讓我們同意?我要怎麼同意你這兩件事情撥過去?我們可以來努力來做這個這部分跟委員報告好部長謝謝謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:59:35 - 14:08:09","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155627","gazette":{"lineno":1329,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（13時59分）謝謝主席，我們一樣請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好，部長辛苦了，下午兩點還這麼多委員在這邊質詢，後面還有很多人繼續問，我想當然跟部長昨天的發言有很大的關係。部長，雖然你剛剛已經跟委員們致歉，但是我想了解一下這個天馬行空的想法從何而來。大家都看到新聞，6月17號雲豹能源宣布他們要在菲律賓插旗參與太陽能，剛好我們的新政府現在又提到，我們可以去菲律賓採購綠電，這中間有沒有關連性？部長，在這個發想過程中你有看到這個新聞嗎？還是這兩件事是獨立事件，沒有關係？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這兩件事情完全是獨立事件，我也不清楚雲豹公司到菲律賓投資的事情。我說到菲律賓這件事其實是我們看到矢板明夫在創建所謂的印太……"],["黃委員健豪：有，我看到新聞你回應了，是在出席智庫活動時各國大使給你建議的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為美國的大使、日本的大使都在談民主聯盟，在未來的世界大家應該要互通，在共同友好的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：沒有關係，這個我了解啦。"],["郭部長智輝：所以才談到能源的部分，因為菲律賓、美國、日本的領導人在今年4月共同簽了一個呂宋經濟計畫。"],["黃委員健豪：這個你上午回應過，部長，沒關係，這我知道，只是好奇啦，第一、如果你不知道這事情，但其實不知道也不應該啦，坦白說，如果我國廠商出去投資，你沒有掌握，本身也是有點奇怪，提醒一下部長；再來，部長昨天講去日本、去菲律賓買綠電送回臺灣，價格比本土便宜，那不是很奇怪嗎？同樣的廠商，以在臺灣內部很大的雲豹為例，它去菲律賓投資太陽能，你又提到我們出國去買綠電，比臺灣本土便宜，那臺灣的本土廠商不就冤大頭？我們這些消費者不就冤大頭？你不就冤大頭嗎？為什麼會發生這種事情？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們臺灣土地有限，我們的海岸也有限，但是綠能業者有經濟規模，當它的經濟規模達到的時候，它可以充分的降低成本，這個就是經濟的原理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長，你剛剛提到的就是企業經營的角度，畢竟你從企業界來，如果今天我們真的去國外買綠電比較便宜的話，那我們國內幹嘛還要繼續發展這件事情呢？"],["郭部長智輝：國內還是要發展綠電啊。"],["黃委員健豪：但成本高啊，如果從企業經營的角度來看，你今天從企業界來，你也知道理論上我們現在的綠電成本可能相對比國外高，既然你都覺得去國外買的價格遠低於本土綠電，那不是就應該鼓勵我們國內的廠商去國外買綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這有兩個不同的意義，如果在國外可以幫助它降低成本，事實上，國內的產業可以到國外去發揮，這個是非常重要的成本觀念。"],["黃委員健豪：不是，我的意思是今天你提到日本或菲律賓的目的，就是因為你說去國外買綠電，對本土廠商來講比較便宜，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：本土廠商也可以到外國去發展。"],["黃委員健豪：那我們的產業不就外移了？我的意思就是這樣嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，產業必須要有國際競爭力，因為我們臺灣的市場比較小，我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員健豪：對不起，部長，我時間不夠，如果今天國外的綠電比較便宜，那我們希望檢討國內的綠電能不能跟國外一樣便宜，不然，這樣真的對臺灣本土產業競爭是有問題的，部長，我們後面再討論。"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣的市場太小了啦，我們不能夠讓臺灣的廠商只在臺灣這麼小的市場。"],["黃委員健豪：好，對不起，時間不夠，我繼續講，部長提到2,000億撥補，可以讓大家未來兩年不漲電價，這是你的承諾，如果給你2,000億之後，電價漲了，你準備下台，這是你講的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，我們試算了一下，過去10年來，台電以前有賺錢，所以有所謂的電價穩定準備金，以前都用電價穩定準備金來撥補，但112年之後因為電價穩定準備金花完了，台電自己沒有錢了，所以用政府預算來撥補，陸陸續續一直在撥補，包含政府之前增資2,500億，現在你提到還要再撥補2,000億。部長，我們看一張圖，試算一下2,000億是什麼概念，兩年臺灣2,300萬人，就是每人負擔8,696元，兩年電價有12期電費，平均一個人要付725元，以四口之家來說，就算很省電，而且是民生用電，如果今天立法院同意撥補2,000億給台電，等於每一期從每個人口袋裡面掏出2,900元電費，部長，這樣的政策合理嗎？你今天要政府掏2,000億出來，以台電公司為例，台電是公司，你用企業角度經營來看，今天要增資也要有規劃，也要財務試算，你無緣無故叫股東，政府是股東，拿2,000億來幫台電去補2,000億的缺口，你要怎麼樣做到後續這兩年能夠確定成本不會再上漲，還能夠把盈餘補回來？"],["郭部長智輝：因為這個2,000億是在補台電的財務。"],["黃委員健豪：這2,000億的錢不就是人民的納稅錢嗎？又不是你拿出來的錢。"],["郭部長智輝：為什麼需要這個錢？是因為過去三年我們給民生的電價基本上都是虧錢的，每一度電要虧一塊錢以上。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，你這樣講的話，意思就是你等於是用變相漲電價的方式補回來，如果是要建立使用者付費的觀念的話，應該是後續用電多的人付費啊，而不是從人民的納稅錢來出，那就是四口之家的每一個人要拿2,900元出來。"],["郭部長智輝：我們補貼的就是小的用戶、小的商家、住家。"],["黃委員健豪：你的補貼也是從人民納稅錢拿出來的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：這一些就是比較弱勢的。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，你要講如果我們同意撥補2,000億了之後，你不漲電價，但這2,000億怎麼來的？我剛剛講的，這2,000億一樣是從納稅錢來的、從國庫出的，這樣換算下來，不管我再怎麼省電……"],["郭部長智輝：所以委員您的指教就是使用者付費？"],["黃委員健豪：第一、使用者付費；第二、如果你真的堅持要這2,000億，因為今天等於是辦理公司增資的意思，要發行新股，用這2,000億去填補過去的虧損，那2,000億給你之後，你總要提出一個財務規劃啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們提出就是我們會努力來改善整個台電的成本結構。"],["黃委員健豪：那你要算出來，你要提供報告，讓民眾、讓立法院知道未來兩年你要怎麼樣用這2,000億去把缺口補起來，然後保證電價不會上漲。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個是補貼，不是增資，所以我跟您如果是股東的話，我也鄭重在這裡跟你報告，就是我們會去努力補貼台電過去的財務損失，這個損失是因為去照顧中小企業、家庭……"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，主席站起來代表我時間到了。部長，你用這2,000億補過去的缺口，未來兩年台電公司或整個臺灣的能源成本結構，你應該算出來，讓我們知道這2,000億補了，還有你承諾兩年不漲電價的原因是什麼，我覺得你要提出報告，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為我努力得到這個結果……"],["黃委員健豪：不是，你報告提不提得出來？"],["郭部長智輝：會讓電價審議委員來判斷不漲價。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，那你有沒有辦法提出試算報告、提出財務規劃？要不然，我要怎麼同意你這2,000億撥補？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以來努力來做這部分，跟委員報告。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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長周縣長也有特別跟部長請命就是針對我們潮州地區希望來蓋一個針對年輕人的一個圖書館那因為我們現在屏東市我們有一個總圖"},{"start":124.801,"end":124.921,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":144.963,"end":163.934,"text":"謝謝因為他事實上是一個空間的一個重新再活化再利用那我們覺得這對這個平衡區域的一些教育資源給年輕人有一個更好的一些這個創不管閱讀或者創新創業的空間我們也最近收到了這樣的一個計畫的一個申請我們也會朝這個支持"},{"start":168.777,"end":169.397,"text":"委員剛才所看的那一個因為這個"},{"start":194.651,"end":199.216,"text":"這一個颱風整個那個鋼駕鋼柱整個把這個圍牆廚房這個離港國小的這個廚房整個這個把他打穿這我們都會立即來協助改善"},{"start":210.069,"end":226.226,"text":"徐富癸,另外針對我們現在教育部為了補充我們現在學校的一個行政人員的不足我們有針對一個國中小7到20班會補助一個行政人力那一年的費用大概是52萬但是要保證報告這錢不夠"},{"start":230.59,"end":255.523,"text":"因為我們針對高中的部分我們是一年補助60萬所以縣政府他還要再負擔這樣子的一個差額對我們屏東縣的財政這個比較嚴重的吃力另外一個本席覺得比較不合理就是因為我們現在目前有90所學校國中小是所謂6班以下的學校那他們的行政人力更缺乏"},{"start":256.403,"end":256.703,"text":"徐富癸"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:58:18 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邀請部長 請郭部長"},{"start":21.826,"end":44.712,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛高金委員講的一切在我總質詢的時候應該也有講過類似的話題然後就是說我們現在能源配比就好比是在打棒球賽一樣根本就是硬要堅持這樣做是打假球的一個行為那身為球隊總經理其實當初我想大家看到您來接這個經濟部長的時候是希望你在"},{"start":45.712,"end":60.225,"text":"業界的經驗然後你是企業家你可以有理性務實然後真正可以幫我們做理性的判斷但現在看到這樣子實在是令人覺得不知道是你有沒有持續保持這個初心所以我也是呼應一下剛剛我們高經緯委員說的"},{"start":61.286,"end":71.133,"text":"那甚至是您剛剛的這個這個想要去菲律賓日本設電廠的這個問題那這個我們等一下再來討論但是在開始之前我還是想要先問一下部長因為上一次您沒有來是次長來可是我有提到一個問題就是我有收到民間的陳情就是這個藥局因為藥商藥廠因為這次被漲電價所以他就要求說他的所有藥要乘以1.1給藥局對不對這個部分"},{"start":88.886,"end":90.587,"text":"因為這個不是需要溝通的問題啦"},{"start":114.461,"end":131.869,"text":"這當然可以溝通我只想問他有沒有來跟您提過這個類似的事情因為我當初其實我也有把那個資料用出來就是說這個他們有沒有去跟你溝通這個問題我想只要有沒有而已啦衛福部長有沒有跟我們郭部長這邊來溝通或是相關的單位有沒有溝通這個問題"},{"start":140.007,"end":153.565,"text":"這個問題應該有吧?呃,跟委員報告齁,因為一般的藥房都是那個用電比較小,都是累積的那個你就不用解釋,我只問有沒有來溝通這件事因為我當時就有請他去溝通,他答應我說要溝通,請問有溝通嗎?是啊,我們會溝通啦"},{"start":156.188,"end":175.5,"text":"阿有沒有嘛沒有嘛對不對因為你說不是這樣子溝通就有用可是為什麼當初這個菸草和這個我們的醫療診所就馬上就那個新聞一爆出來你們馬上轉彎了沒關係我只想知道他有沒有溝通阿這是第一件事我報告委員齁我想這個菸草那個事情齁是我們台灣沒有不用解釋那個我沒有要問那個問題我只是一樣回到我的問題就是說我們的衛福部長有沒有跟我們經濟部這邊來討論有關於這部分有這樣子的需求或者是因為這樣子因為現在"},{"start":185.006,"end":192.473,"text":"我們的部署裡面應該就是有溝通啦但是沒有直接跟你溝通因為我比較忙一點啦那我直接再跳下面好了這題反正就是沒有跟你直接溝通因為你比較忙他比較不忙"},{"start":208.268,"end":227.366,"text":"我想要請問您發想要去菲律賓和日本等地蓋電廠會有這樣的想法主要的目的是因為國內電力供應不穩嗎還是因為提供國內的綠電需求一或者兩者都要有不是這樣子這個我從早上到現在已經講了20次了對"},{"start":229.818,"end":249.551,"text":"我們到菲律賓這是一個命題跟國內的綠電完全沒有關係但是部長您要知道這個命題在這個時間點出現就是會讓人民很恐慌的事情對我的言語不夠精準非常抱歉這真的是讓人覺得天馬行空並急亂投移真的是讓人覺得很緊張因為當初我們就已經講過討論過這個所有能源配比的問題"},{"start":254.454,"end":276.589,"text":"所以我在這邊要跟委員報告這一個跟我們的能源政策是沒有關係的所以這只是國際討論在研討這個能源的時候這其中一個重要的命題好部長那另外這個碳費費率已經公佈了嘛那根據已公告的碳費收費辦法的第3條"},{"start":277.429,"end":300.726,"text":"那大概就是有這個範疇一製程與設施再加上範疇二有間接能源的部分超過2.5萬噸則收這個碳費的部分了那我想關於製程跟設施的提升和改善當然政府要輔導可是主要也是企業自己在努力阿他們也在努力了嘛對不對但範疇二的部分呢就是這個間接能源的部分可是目前依照我們這樣子的能源配比"},{"start":302.237,"end":326.357,"text":"這個部分其實就是削弱了他們國際上的競爭力如果比起那些用電這個有一些國家能源配比比較合理的甚至有用核能發電平均去發電的這樣子的這樣子的企業對他們來講我們國家我們國內的這些廠商是不是會面臨到很大的競爭的問題因為他也在這個範球位的部分是我們錯誤的能源配比我想請教部長這個你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":327.368,"end":344.161,"text":"政策會因為這個時間而改變沒有說哪一個時間它是正確哪一個時間是錯誤所以你的意思是說未來可能會改變決定要用何能是這樣嗎還是不一定還是說正能源配比也只是暫時性的不會說只有50%就是多久會變我們現在這個都是在與時俱進所以這是滾動式的討論我們會滾動式的討論然後會seeking所有新的能源"},{"start":352.708,"end":369.765,"text":"所有可以用的、可以降低成本的能源我們都可以用是部長但是你們現在這樣子就是讓人民很害怕因為這時間是不等人的啦你以為隨便想要蓋一個核能廠或是核能廠要研議隨時就可以有嗎當然不是嘛一個核電廠要6年然後一個核能廠研議要3年對所以我要說你們當初能源的發展綱領也8年多沒調整你跟我說滾動式調整"},{"start":376.812,"end":399.202,"text":"我是說從現在開始我沒有講說過去8年我沒有參與所以我沒有辦法回答過去8年為什麼沒有調整但是從現在開始我跟你們報告的就是我們會滾動式的調整請這個委員能夠了解也知道說我們在努力啊為國人的這個用電上面創造一個新的環境"},{"start":399.882,"end":422.96,"text":"所以這樣新的環境還是維持這樣子天然氣50﹖不是,我們的新的環境會讓它在國際的市場上面具有競爭力所以你現在要往這邊方向努力對不對?所以部長我這裡就是要告訴你因為現在持續這樣子做這樣子的能源配比你目前是做不到這件事目前是沒有辦法讓這些企業在國際上會有競爭力單就範疇二的部分我請部長要務實的這個幫助企業幫助我們國家解決這樣的問題好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:52:14 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Tahovecahe委員：部長好。前幾天文化部跟原民會有辦理一個國家語言臺灣原住民族語言的論壇，這當中有非常多來自全國各地各級學校的族語老師齊聚一堂，為我們的族語方向去找解方，當然我今天在這裡來問教育部，就是希望代為建言反映並尋求解方，因為畢竟還是要回歸到教育部這邊來幫忙。","最主要是現在有個現象，即開設族語，找不到老師，而且越往上面的學習階層，學習的人越少。老師們提到，最主要的原因就是因為現在的族語認證制度，學生考上了中級之後就拿到了加分的門檻，他就停止學習。所以想要跟部長反映的就是，學生學習族語的誘因，大家都覺得也需要做分級制度；老師的部分也需要做分級制度來支持，為什麼？我們來看一下現在族語人力的現況，我們現在教族語的老師有一成是來自於現職教師去兼課教族語，有一成是107年之後的原住民專職族語教師，但是它的名額不多，絕大部分、八成的族語人員還是來自於所謂的教支，也就是教學支援2688的人員，那麼在這個地方我們很辛苦的就是，第一個，老師不足，他是高齡化，因為年輕人也不願意投入，這個跟我們推動族語其實是背道而馳的。當然族語專職化是目標，我們也希望、老師們都希望我們朝向這個目標把名額變多，我相信部長也支持，但是問題是出在什麼呢？就是每一次開這些師培班，開了幾十個班，每一次都只有個位數的人報考，且年齡偏高，斷層很嚴重，而且高級的門檻很高，所以大家都覺得誘因不足，這個部分我們就是要來想辦法解決嘛！所以大家都在說，不論是教學支援人員或專職教師，能不能夠把高級的目標降低成取得中高級，特別是國小、幼兒園的部分，如果不放心，也希望給他們一個落日條款，例如3年內取得等等，我想這也是一個方法。","另外提到教師的分級敘薪，不同的級別有不同的薪資，我們希望同工但是不同酬。另外，我們都在推動多元評量，我們也希望族語認證方式能多元，除了現行的族語認證方式外，增加口說能力也可以啊！他通過著作的審查也可以啊！我們希望開這些管道讓更多的人願意來投入。","再來，很多人也認為像偏鄉久任獎金就沒有這些教保員、族語老師，即便他是族語專職教師，所以像這種都是誘因不足，或者是我們的健檢福利等等。甚至是他擔任族語老師之後，學校不讓他出去，他本來是需要做田調，他的程度反而無法提升，因為不能夠去部落，跟原民會也斷了連結，這個部分也很希望教育部能夠發個公文給學校，讓學校可以針對這個部分同意老師們可以出去做田野。","因為時間的關係，我就啪啦啪啦啪啦，也沒有問部長的意見了，請部長簡單回應。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員指正，委員事實上都已經看到了問題，我們會跟原民會認真地來討論，有一些可以立即解決的，包括原師語言上的一些……從高級變成中高，然後他的在職裡面再用什麼樣方式來補，以提升他的族語能力，包括一些誘因，我想我們會整體來看，包含原住民學校的實施，我們現在內部也在討論，看是不是能夠有一個for原住民學生公費專班的實施培育系統，我們現在都一併納入規劃。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，因為你從小學任教到大學，什麼問題你都能夠了解，我相信你也可以提出很好的對策，我就是反映來自全國各級的問題，希望你能夠會同原民會在兩週內去做研擬、來做一個報告，可以嗎？謝謝部長。"],["主席：請教育部之後以書面回應。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，部長請回。","再來請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:08:27","end_time":"2024-10-16T13:52:07+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155621","委員名稱":"高金素梅","duration":507,"start_time":"2024-10-16T13:43:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df699280e57854cdc6fd8abd6de18eea4dbebec2939449debf3c4bd0c126c431d72f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.52284375,"end":11.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.21784375,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.69409375,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.92534375,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.23284375,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.26221875,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.78096875,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.37534375,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.56784375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.158468750000004,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.63909375,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.34346875,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.541593750000004,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.165968750000005,"end":54.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.21659375,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.97596875,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.072843750000004,"end":60.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.21596875,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.73034375,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.79284375,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.37471875,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.08721875,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.69346875000001,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.51596875,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.42721875000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.75596875000001,"end":87.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.69221875000001,"end":91.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.78034375,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.45909375000001,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.12034375,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.19971875,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.58721875,"end":115.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.26596875000001,"end":124.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.31096875,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.96846875,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.21721875,"end":131.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.84159375000002,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.34346875,"end":134.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.45284375,"end":141.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.23721875,"end":149.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.64471875,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.19284375,"end":153.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.42034375,"end":193.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.43096875,"end":211.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.28471875000002,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.78096875,"end":348.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.98909375,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.90721875,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.27471875000003,"end":411.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.86221875,"end":405.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.42221875,"end":416.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.65346875,"end":419.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.42971875,"end":424.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","sta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13:52:07","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155621","gazette":{"lineno":1251,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（13時43分）部長要喝口水嗎？要不要喝口水？我的麥克風怎麼那麼小聲啊！能調一下這個聲音啊！我要拉得很近才能夠說，我們趁這個時間讓部長休息一下喝口水。喂，1234，謝謝你，好像大聲一點了，謝謝。部長喝完水，您就可以上臺了，好嗎？"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：部長，上任到現在多久了？"],["郭部長智輝：5個多月吧！"],["高金委員素梅：有沒有覺得很疲累？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["高金委員素梅：可是我看到你很疲累，我看到你的心非常地疲憊。剛剛從黃國昌委員一直到昭姿委員，你好像都已經沒有辦法招架了，我今天其實要提醒你的就是，大家給你非常多的期待跟期望，希望你依然是帶著初心來到這個地方為人民服務，用你的專業跟你經營企業的心態還有手腕來好好地坐這個位子。今天我沒有很深入的問題，我只是講一個非常邏輯的問題。","看一下，能源配比本末倒置，用電政策捨本逐末，你可以不要即時地回答，好好看一下我給你整理的一些資料。民進黨從19年代就開始反核運動了，當時它就喊出了非核家園的運動理想，經過了二十多年，到了2016年，這個反核理想變成了2025年非核家園的政策目標，當時您還在企業界，我想問您，您當時的態度是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：你說這個能源的配比嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：能源的政策，非核家園。"],["郭部長智輝：這個不是我的……我經濟部部長是執行這樣的決策。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，當時你在企業，你看到民進黨政府要把2025非核家園政策當作它的執行目標了，你的看法是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我那時候沒有什麼看法，因為我大概就是民間，不會去考慮能源。"],["高金委員素梅：您是民間的董事長耶！好，我們看一下，當年蔡英文政府提出這個政策目標，2025年能源發電的結構比是天然氣要占50%，會影響到你們的企業；燃煤占了30%，這會影響我們的空氣；再生能源占了20%，能不能達到？我相信您是一個有名的董事長、產業界的龍頭老大，您應該都清楚。好了，現在8年過去了，依照經濟部今年發布的2023年全國電力的資源供需報告，能源發電的結構占比，燃煤仍然是最高的，所以我們的空氣會越來越壞，它的占比是42.24%；我們的天然氣還是第二，占了39.57%；核能減少了將近一半，達到6.31%，7月底核三廠關閉，只剩下了3%；而我們也清楚知道，弊案連連的再生能源卻成長有限，從5%只增長到9.47%。經濟部你們今年預估2025年再生能源的占比只能達到15%，然而原先設定20%的政策目標，要推遲到2026年的11月才能夠達標，這已經是第2次的推遲了。","民進黨政府在2025年非核家園的理想為什麼到現在還沒有辦法兌現呢？有人說是因為新冠疫情的影響，有的人說是俄烏戰爭的結果，這個理由我認為都說不過去啦！我認為要實現一個重大能源轉型目標是一個風險很大的政策，對吧！要實現這種轉變，需要的是穩健的政策，對不對？對吧！同意嗎？好，可是民進黨政府它們卻急於求成，現在核能雖然已經如民進黨所願，幾乎要停掉了，但是我們的再生能源這個部分就算貪多求快，目標也一拖再拖，不能夠達標，然而弊案連連，這種能源配比的目標根本就是本末倒置，我認為只要正本清源，合理利用現有的發電能源，也就是核能，我們的能源配比是可以穩健轉型的，但是民進黨政府就是不願意放棄2025年非核家園的執念，這也是我覺得你心累的問題。","核電減少了之後就必須要南電北送，超負荷的燃煤發電就會讓我們的電廠超載工作、事故不斷、跳電狀況不斷、電網傳送不穩定，然後我們高價買的綠電也緩不濟急，於是就開始缺電了。說到缺電，台電仍然說沒有缺電，只是要修電網和老舊的發電設備，然後民進黨政府就編多少？10年5,645億元的強化電網韌性建設計畫，這是人民的納稅錢喔！台電又說要用來發電的國際能源價格大漲了，我們如果再繼續買下去，台電就要破產了，於是民進黨政府這兩年又要增資，撥補了多少？4,000億元，民進黨政府拿人民的納稅錢貼補了台電，問題解決了嗎？沒有解決，台電要繼續漲電價。這3年來我們看一下，台電漲了3次的電價，漲幅是30%，我相信你應該很清楚。今年4月，漲完電價之後，台電又講了，它說如果不再繼續撥補的話，電價還要再漲12%，結果民進黨政府又編了多少？1,000億元的撥補預算，還漲了電價，平均的漲幅超過了12%。","過去的8年你不在沒關係，民進黨政府它編列了成億上兆的能源轉型預算，明年也就是114年度，我們的預算繼續要編多少？1,161億元，還有一個什麼呢？6年9,000億元的2030淨零轉型計畫。我們看一下，蔡英文砸大錢拚了8年，我們的綠能配比也增加不到5%，未來的6年要達到配比20%，這有可能嗎？請問經濟部長。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在努力讓綠能在2026年能夠達到20%。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！有很多細節問題，黃國昌委員都問了啦！但是今天我要再問你一個，你看一下，今天的頭版、頭條都是你的新聞喔！部長，你知道你犯了什麼錯誤嗎？你又犯了民進黨把理想當政策的錯誤，我認為以您這位企業家的經歷，你不應該犯這種錯誤啊！你看一下今天您的頭條新聞，部長，你要不要看一下，你要到菲律賓、日本蓋綠電廠啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是一個比較大的命題的討論，但是我想我跟媒體的溝通沒有很好，所以它會截這一段來放大說明，所以我也感到抱歉，我自己的言語不夠精準，沒有把這件事情表達得很好。"],["高金委員素梅：所以要嗎？會做嗎？這件事情。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這是個非常大的計畫。"],["高金委員素梅：這件事情會做嗎？你不覺得這個計畫又是一個很有理想性，根本不可能實現的事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是。"],["高金委員素梅：這又是另外一個政策錯誤嗎？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這個跟政策沒有關係，我沒有叫台電要去菲律賓設，我只是講菲律賓會設一個電廠，但不是台電，這一點我必須要特別說明。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝，我認為你講這句話，我們看一下是不是某一些股票又要漲價了，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩請部長還有台電董事長 請郭部長 曾董事長"},{"start":18.012,"end":45.737,"text":"委員好部長好我的背景是藥學在食藥署它對於製藥工程的管理有一套這個品質規範那就是跟國際接軌從早期的GMP到後來的CGMP甚至現在的PIX GMP都是為了有一個精神就是它生產的東西的品質要有一致性所以我想不論是藥品或是工業的產品所有的品質要有一致性我不曉得部長您同不同意這樣的一個觀點"},{"start":46.977,"end":60.224,"text":"完全同意那部長您過去在加入這個團隊之前您是在產業界有所謂的斜槓經紀人的美稱除了半導體的科技業您也涉足食品水產環保健康光電跟綠能等產業那我想請問部長部長當你蓋一個廠房的時候那你會先供應商購買這個所謂的這個設備器材"},{"start":69.248,"end":90.254,"text":"請問你可以接受廠商給你不符合採購要求或是不合格的產品嗎?你會同意嗎?當然不會同意但是部長請看這個大林電廠更新改建工程從2012年開始他到今天為止光是跟煤倉有關的更新改建工程他花了80億元"},{"start":92.214,"end":115.631,"text":"因為梅艷昌是所謂的晨報、氣爆的高風險區所以他所謂的他要使用的防暴器材必須是國家TS認證的一個防暴電機管配件但是我們發現目前安裝在大林電廠上的防暴配管件無論是哪一家公司蒙譽、政賀或是申邦"},{"start":116.371,"end":116.631,"text":"董事長知道嗎"},{"start":134.973,"end":138.857,"text":"根據CNS3376標準講得很清楚,爆炸性環境使用的金屬器材對於鋁、鎂、鈦、鈠有含量限制,為什麼呢?"},{"start":152.532,"end":181.158,"text":"因為這些金屬是屬於助燃物他會幫助燃燒所以絕對不能用來這個作為防爆另外有個東西叫做縮狀石墨鑄鐵他也因為這個根據CNS14438的標準在製造過程中在製造過程中他會加入這些金屬鎂、鈦、鎬去幫助他的求化率會提高就是有這樣的一個情況部長、董事長我們來看這個防爆配管件金屬材料要比的是什麼"},{"start":181.678,"end":181.718,"text":"陳昭姿議員"},{"start":198.211,"end":213.59,"text":"那最下階的就是灰口鑄鐵灰口鑄鐵它是不能使用的因為它的這個拉伸度不夠你知道外面的那個水溝蓋就是用的就是灰石鑄鐵那碩木鑄鐵我剛剛提到因為它裡面有一些金屬那些金屬會鑄燃所以它不能用"},{"start":215.475,"end":223.841,"text":"那部長董事長大林電廠更新改建工程合約要求當然也要求了合約可斷鑄鐵或鋼或是球末鑄鐵這是OK的但是請部長董事長看這張今年8月6號職安署的大林這個電廠去抽測結果10件有6件不合格"},{"start":236.577,"end":252.578,"text":"裏面有五件就是含了這個有很多所謂的剛剛我講的幾個金屬的這個縮狀這個鑄鐵另外還有一件它含的是灰口鑄鐵根本不防爆另外五個是會助燃的防爆器這是8月6號執安署去抽查出來的結果"},{"start":253.88,"end":273.592,"text":"好 下一張 好 等一下你們好好解釋齁那這個配件裡面還縮動石墨是非常 它不防爆還助燃也不符合剛剛我秀給你們看的你們自己的這個採購要求所以他們這個求化率都遠遠低於標準80那我很擔心啊 部長跟董事長你能夠接受這樣的產品嗎"},{"start":276.016,"end":296.161,"text":"報告委員我可以請董事長來回答嗎不然一起看下面那個紡織品另外有一家政客公司它的原型接線盒也是為了用於防爆你看同樣一家公司它提供的有違品的求化率是零也有真的92%這是以假亂真以次充好以列充好啊"},{"start":297.793,"end":301.697,"text":"到底這些防暴品是誰賣進去的?誰交給台電的?台電怎麼驗收?請解釋,謝謝我跟委員報告,就剛才鄭如婷您所說的現在因為各種的防暴設施它的品項非常的多那簡單來講我們現在是用它有認證有TS標章那這幾個產品確實有TS標章"},{"start":320.896,"end":335.249,"text":"那這個貼紙標章在核發的時候是不是這些廠商有作假這個我們現在會查這是第一件事第二件事情就是這個地方所需要做的防爆的規範跟要求"},{"start":336.39,"end":344.216,"text":"對台電來講這個規格是高的所以我們也要求工程單位跟電廠針對這個部分開始做更全面的檢測我要告訴兩位首長下一張2020年台電就知情了你用到的那個最大的Apple Atom的這個仿製品照片上這位就是南部施工處的正信經理"},{"start":359.807,"end":384.846,"text":"他當時就跟這個現在樂鐵的台灣代表拿了兩個圓形接鑑盒桌上就是那兩個圓形接鑑盒送到金屬中心去檢測照片桌面那兩個圓形接鑑盒大家看得到右邊就是工作委託單很奇怪喔這個工作委託單這個正信定裡沒有具名喔他叫同仁具名這是什麼意思這是什麼意思好那這個檢查結果呢你可以看到這個檢查結果左邊是寫"},{"start":386.431,"end":388.592,"text":"請問正信經理有把這件事呈報給台電總公司嗎請問你們知情嗎"},{"start":409.96,"end":411.321,"text":"指安署的這個檢測報告是在最近才給我們"},{"start":438.737,"end":439.558,"text":"我們現在知道 既然知道廠商都會做假"},{"start":464.119,"end":464.599,"text":"我會繼續追蹤電視,請把簡訊交給我"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:35:27 - 13:43:35","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155619","gazette":{"lineno":1219,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（13時35分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長和台電董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長、曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長好。我的背景是藥學，食藥署對於製藥工程的管理，有一套品質規範跟國際接軌，從早期的GMP到後來的cGPM，甚至現在的PIC/S GMP，都是為了有一個精神，就是它生產的東西的品質要有一致性，所以我想不論是藥品或是工業的產品，所有的品質要有一致性，我不曉得部長您同不同意這樣的觀點？"],["郭部長智輝：完全同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長您過去在加入這個團隊之前，在產業界有所謂的斜槓經紀人的美稱，除了半導體的科技業，您也涉足食品、水產、環保、健康、光電跟綠能等產業。我想請問部長，當你在蓋一個廠房的時候，供應商會先購買所謂的設備器材，請問你可以接受廠商給你不符合採購要求或是不合格的產品嗎？你會同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然不會同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，不會同意，但是部長請看，大林電廠更新改建工程從2012年開始到今天為止，光是跟煤倉有關的更新改建工程花了80億元，因為煤倉是所謂的塵爆、氣爆的高風險區，所以它要使用的防爆器材必須是國家TS認證的防爆電氣管配件，但是我們發現目前安裝在大林電廠上的防爆配管件，無論是哪一家公司──盟諭、正鶴或是申芳都有不合格的狀況，這件事民眾黨在9月30日有一個記者會，請問部長知道這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我有耳聞。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長還不知道。我本來期待經濟部跟台電內部已經有內部的調查。董事長知道嗎？告訴我知不知道這件事情？"],["曾董事長文生：我知道這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。根據國家的標準，CNS3372標準裡面講得很清楚，爆炸性的環境我們使用的金屬器材對於鋁、鎂、鈦、鋯有含量的限制，為什麼呢？因為這些金屬是屬於助燃物，它會幫助燃燒，所以絕對不能用來做為防爆。另外有個東西叫做縮狀石墨鑄鐵，根據CNS14438的標準，在製造過程中，它會加入鎂、鈦、鋯這些金屬去幫助它的球化率提高，就是有這樣的一個情況。","部長、董事長，我們來看防爆配管件金屬材料要比的是什麼？就是拉伸的強度。第一個最理想的就是球墨鑄鐵，它的標準球化率需要80%以上；再來是可鍛鑄鐵，但是可鍛鑄鐵可能因為環保的因素，已經大概超過10年國際不生產了，可能買不到；最下階的就是灰口鑄鐵，灰口鑄鐵是不能使用的，因為它的拉伸度不夠，你知道外面的道路水溝蓋用的就是灰石鑄鐵；至於縮墨鑄鐵，我剛剛提到它裡面有一些金屬，那些金屬會助燃，所以它不能用。","部長、董事長，大林電廠更新改建工程的合約當然也要求了，合約要求可鍛鑄鐵或鋼或是球墨鑄鐵，這是OK的。但是請部長、董事長看這張簡報，今年8月6日職安署到大林電廠去抽測的結果，10件有6件不合格，裡面有5件就是含有剛剛我講的那幾個金屬的縮狀鑄鐵，另外還有一件含的是灰口鑄鐵，根本不防爆，另外5個是會助燃的防爆器，這是8月6日職安署去抽查出來的結果，等一下你們好好解釋。這個配件裡面含縮狀石墨是非常……它不防爆，還助燃，也不符合剛剛我秀給你們看的，你們自己的採購要求，它們的球化率都遠遠低於標準80%，我很擔心啊！部長跟董事長，你能夠接受這樣的產品嗎？你能夠接受嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我可以請董事長來回答嗎？有請董事長。"],["陳委員昭姿：不然一起看下面那個仿製品，另外有一家正鶴公司，它的圓型接線盒也是為了用於防爆，你看同樣一家公司，它提供的有偽品的，球化率是0，也有真的92%，這是以假亂真、以次充好、以劣充好啊！到底這些仿冒品是誰賣進去的？誰交給台電的？台電怎麼驗收？好，請解釋，謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：好，跟委員報告，就剛剛正如您所說的，現在因為各種防爆設施的品項非常地多，簡單來講，我們現在是用它有認證、有TS標章，這幾個產品確實有TS標章，這個TS標章在核發的時候，是不是這些廠商有做假，這個我們現在會查，這是第一件事。","第二件事情就是這個地方所需要做的防爆的規範跟要求，對我台電來講，這個規格是高的，所以我們也要求工程單位跟電廠針對這個部分開始做更全面的檢測。"],["陳委員昭姿：你認為是廠商有做假，好，我要告訴兩位首長，2020年台電就知情了，你用到最大Appleton的仿製品，照片上這位就是南部施工處的鄭姓經理，他當時就跟現在熱鐵的臺灣代表拿了兩個圓型接線盒，桌上就是那兩個圓形接線盒，送到金屬中心去檢測，照片桌面那兩個圓形接線盒，大家看得到，右邊就是工作委託單，很奇怪喔！這個工作委託單，這個鄭姓經理在上面沒有具名喔！他叫同仁具名，這是什麼意思？這是什麼意思？好，這個檢查結果呢？你可以看到這個檢查結果，左邊是寫灰口鑄鐵，就是不合格、最爛的、最低階的那一種，右邊是寫什麼？下面是合格的，所以它是混製的，混在裡面，正品、假品都混在裡面，這個2020年就已經知情了，現在是2024年，請問鄭姓經理有把這件事陳報給台電總公司嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問你們知情嗎？你當年就檢測了。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，您描述的事情我們不曉得，但你要說的事是不是像你描述的這樣，我們會回去查清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：我把所有的單據、所有的資料都給你們看，你們竟然還不知道這件事情，我們9月30日開了記者會，你們完全當作空氣嗎？我們show出那麼多的證據，職安署去檢測的。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，對，職安署的這個檢測報告是在最近才給我們，最近我們才拿到。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我已經show給你2020年臺南施工廠鄭姓經理已經有發出工作委託單，結果也出來了，有不合格的產品在裡面，你們都不知情嗎？是台電的員工耶！"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，因為它是一個標準市面上的產品，我們買來基本上是看它有沒有TS的認證標章。"],["陳委員昭姿：不要講太多，就是認錯嘛！好好去檢查。"],["王總經理耀庭：現在既然知道廠商都會做假，我們當然就會針對買來的部分抽驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：廠商做假也是你們的責任，是怎麼驗收的？怎麼驗收的？台電怎麼驗收的？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我今天聽到這個問題以後，我回去究責，如果有您所指示的這個狀況，我們當然就送檢調處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們會繼續追蹤這件事，好，請把這個檢討報告交給我，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","請高金委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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個基地這個園區他是比較熟悉的部長臺大是你是主管機關吧對於臺大有沒有依照當初他的一個跟新竹縣政府一個不一樣的目的去執行整個校地的開發這部分你應該去促成吧"},{"start":181.491,"end":204.13,"text":"我們確實在行政院內部會有開會然後國科會、國科會跟教育部我們在跟這個臺大陳校長我們內部是有開會部長我希望你多多關心這塊地的一個真的就是有沒有依照原先的規劃臺大依照他的承諾去履行說這個依照原來的計畫去做執行"},{"start":206.071,"end":225.583,"text":"如果我現在一個假設性的問題我也請教因為我們等了很久我們當地的居民啊真的叫做不期待就不會受傷害期待傷害就很深看到那麼有價值的一個精華地段臺大現在還一直閒置在那邊喔履歷開會也是沒有下落"},{"start":226.503,"end":245.286,"text":"所以如果台大沒有按照他的承諾去履行的話部長你站不站成說在這邊因為你今天的一個業務報告裡面也提到說你要這個在各個產業園區你鼓勵要設立實驗高中現在新竹縣政府也有一個實驗高中的一個計畫"},{"start":246.667,"end":265.105,"text":"您願不願意贊成或者協助推動臺大把5公頃的土地返還給新竹縣政府作為我們實驗高中的用地應該跟委員報告因為臺大現在目前因為國化會跟國科委都在協助臺大"},{"start":267.307,"end":272.011,"text":"我希望教育部能夠促成臺大把五空井的土地返還給新竹縣政府作為實驗高中你能承諾嗎?"},{"start":295.091,"end":301.737,"text":"我想我們來努力最後一個問題另外一個就是說因為時間已經超過了主席我還有一個很重要的議題就是有關那個30秒30秒不行不行因為已經超過40幾秒快要一分鐘那個就是說我們國中小的35億的經費林思銘委員因為大家醫生員都還沒有休息跟吃飯"},{"start":321.052,"end":342.528,"text":"請部長這35億的經費我們部裡面已經收到沒有?你不回應但收到沒有?新竹縣政府已經提報上來了嘛我希望新竹縣政府我希望教育部盡速的把這35億我知道是要從公共建設基金裡面去撥補我希望那個你能夠盡速的把這35億最後核定多少金額給我們一個做一個書面的資料跟我答覆謝謝"},{"start":350.416,"end":350.436,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:37:06 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部長今天的報告其實已經指出來太陽光電20GW這個目標其實是已經是跳票了但是你重新給了一個目標就是2026年你可以達到但是計算現在的缺口大概將近7GW這麼多那剛剛也有委員提到說7GW你到底地面型要設置多少屋頂型要多少你可不可以再重新講一次你們精確的數字"},{"start":50.831,"end":79.132,"text":"我可不可以請能源署署長好來署長你說好跟委員報告我們在規劃的時候大概一般是50%的屋頂型50%的地面型的總體來看那我們也有設定一個20GW的總目標屋頂8地面12那8的部分我們目前已經達成了可是會繼續推屋頂如果做得多有效的可以紓解地面型所以我問你嘛這7GW多少是地面多少是屋頂沒有答案還不知道"},{"start":80.015,"end":80.175,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":100.69,"end":114.725,"text":"最大規模的比例會來自什麼樣的土地?我們推這個漁電共生大概會有多大面積?基本上漁電共生它是有這個農業部它給我們的土地大概有2萬公頃"},{"start":115.666,"end":115.886,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":134.284,"end":154.916,"text":"大量的重電造成這個社區裡面這個鄉親的困擾我讓你看了這張圖這個是嘉義縣大浦鄉這個光電業者他在這個活動中心供老人用餐的地方你看看周遭通通都是光電板學校附近也是光電板住家附近也是光電板"},{"start":155.856,"end":174.902,"text":"在10月11號還爆發嚴重的衝突這個光電業者進行施工然後怪車怪手司機他還要去衝撞這個阻擋的村民這件事情部長知不知道報告委員這個案子我想他是合法申請"},{"start":175.902,"end":178.323,"text":"你剛看到那個畫面了合法申請你認為你們現在的規則沒有問題嗎連卓院長我在立法院問他的時候院會質詢他都覺得這看起來是不合理"},{"start":193.001,"end":211.68,"text":"而且他說他要交辦讓經濟部去了解你到目前為止有沒有接到院長的交辦這個事項要你去了解狀況院長一定有交辦經濟部那你收到了沒那我們你們開始處理了沒署長你有在處理嗎有處理現在處理的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":213.081,"end":226.594,"text":"報言因為這個案子我們大概知道現場他是一個都市計畫的住宅區那依法當然他可以設置不過確實如剛剛委員的相片所顯示的他跟周遭的環境之間可能有一些比較鄰近的這些問題所以我們請縣府跟業者"},{"start":229.156,"end":232.54,"text":"有在做嗎?我跟你說沒有在做明天這些鄉親就要包遊覽車上來到行政院去抗議了我給這個部長看一下你們現在其實存在的問題就是你們根本對這種社區型的你們是不設防的"},{"start":250.357,"end":270.689,"text":"剛剛署長講只要地主同意就蓋啊那他如果像台南小二甲化整為零我分批來你就會看到剛剛這樣子大面積的通通都是但是有沒有審核沒有審核標準所以你們現在對於這種社區型的既然你說光是漁業署這樣的土地已經夠了我要求這種社區型的要嚴格的審核而且要一個審核的標準"},{"start":275.111,"end":301.127,"text":"你們現在其實都沒有包括社區學校醫院旁邊如果他種光電板你們現在是不適合訪的所以大埔會出現這樣子那你剛剛看到一個很荒謬的畫面連卓院長都覺得荒謬就是這麼小的社區這麼大量的一個光電板你根本沒有走面積的一個上限你沒有個容量的上限而且需不需要經過居民同意也完全不需要所以現在大埔的居民是求助無門"},{"start":302.108,"end":302.308,"text":"這我們會深刻檢討"},{"start":323.823,"end":345.893,"text":"好那我就希望這個部長今天已經知道這個問題的嚴重性你也覺得未來不需要入侵到社區去設這些光電板那這一類型的就應該要嚴審而且不需要再設置了另外一點曾文水庫絕對不可以蓋光電板這一家光電業者還申請要在水庫上面蓋光電板他是被嘉義縣議會"},{"start":348.094,"end":348.114,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:29:07 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13:35:22","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155616","gazette":{"lineno":1174,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（13時29分）謝謝主席。主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好，部長今天的報告其實已經指出來，太陽光電20GW這個目標其實已經跳票了，但是你重新給了一個目標就是2026年你可以達到。但是計算現在的缺口大概將近7GW這麼多。剛剛也有委員提到7GW你到底地面型要設置多少、屋頂型要多少、你可不可以再重新講一次你們精確的數字？"],["郭部長智輝：我可不可以請能源署署長來……"],["王委員育敏：好，署長你說。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，我們在規劃的時候，總體來看，大概一般是50%的屋頂型、50%的地面型，我們也有設定一個20GW的總目標，屋頂8、地面12，8的部分我們目前已經達成了，可是會繼續推；屋頂如果做的多、有效就可以紓解地面型……"],["王委員育敏：所以我問你，這7GW多少是地面、多少是屋頂？沒有答案，還不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是屋頂型的已經達到了。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，所以這7GW都是地面型的，可以這麼說嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：原則上是地面型。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果原則上都是地面型的話，你們剛剛說要超過6,000公頃的土地。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["王委員育敏：那這個地從哪裡來？有沒有一個方向跟目標？"],["郭部長智輝：有，現在就是說……"],["王委員育敏：最大規模的比例會來自什麼樣的土地？"],["郭部長智輝：我們推漁電共生。"],["王委員育敏：大概會有多大面積？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上漁電共生農業部給我們的土地大概有2萬公頃。"],["王委員育敏：2萬公頃，所以已經超過你需要的土地了？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["王委員育敏：這麼大？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以完全可以倚賴這邊？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["王委員育敏：好，那就部長你這句話，接下來我就要問你，既然是這樣子，為什麼現在光電業者要入侵到社區去，在社區裡面大量地種電，造成社區裡面鄉親的困擾？我讓你看這張圖，這是嘉義縣大埔鄉，光電業者他在活動中心供老人用餐的地方，你看看周遭通通都是光電板，學校附近也是光電板，住家附近也是光電板，在10月11日還爆發嚴重的衝突。這個光電業者進行施工，怪手司機他還要去衝撞阻擋的村民，這件事情部長你知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個案子我想它是合法申請，然後得到嘉義縣政府核發的同意備查案。"],["王委員育敏：你剛剛看到那個畫面了，合法申請，你認為你們現在的規則沒有問題嗎？連我在立法院問卓院長的時候，在院會質詢，他都覺得這看起來不合理。"],["郭部長智輝：這是因為他……"],["王委員育敏：而且他說他要交辦讓經濟部去了解，你到現在有沒有接到院長這個交辦事項，要你去了解狀況？"],["郭部長智輝：院長一定有交辦經濟部。"],["王委員育敏：那你收到了沒？你們開始處理了沒？"],["郭部長智輝：我們應該是……"],["王委員育敏：署長你有在處理嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有處理。"],["王委員育敏：現在處理的情況是怎麼樣？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，因為這個案子我們大概也知道現場是一個都市計畫的住宅區，依法當然它可以設置。不過確實如剛剛委員的相片所顯示的，它跟周遭的環境之間可能有比較鄰近的這些問題，所以我們請縣府跟業者要跟我們的鄉親做好充分的溝通，希望能夠達成協議之後再……"],["王委員育敏：有在做嗎？我跟你說沒有在做，明天這些鄉親就要包遊覽車上來到行政院去抗議。我給部長看一下，你們現在其實存在的問題就是你們根本對於這種社區型的是不設防的。剛剛署長講只要地主同意就蓋，如果像台南小二甲化整為零、分批來，你就會看到剛剛這樣子，大面積的通通都是。但是有沒有審核？沒有審核標準。","所以你們現在對於這種社區型的，既然你說光是漁業署，這樣的土地已經夠了，我要求這種社區型的要嚴格地審核，而且要有一個審核的標準。你們現在其實都沒有，包括社區、學校、醫院旁邊如果要種光電板，你們現在是不設防的，所以大埔會出現這樣子的狀況。你剛剛看到一個很荒謬的畫面，連卓院長都覺得荒謬，就是這麼小的社區這麼大量的光電板，根本沒有總面積的上限、沒有容量的上限，而且需不需要經過居民同意？也完全不需要。所以現在大埔的居民是求助無門。他們跟縣府陳情，縣府說光電業者要去溝通，但光電業者不溝通，他是開著怪手就強硬要施工，搞得居民他們還需要自己包遊覽車上來臺北抗議，這個對我們的居民公平嗎？我覺得一點都不公平。部長，你應該要主持公道。"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們會深刻檢討。"],["王委員育敏：好，部長今天已經知道這個問題的嚴重性，你也覺得未來不需要入侵到社區去設這些光電板，我希望這一類型的就應該要嚴審，而且不需要再設置了。","另外一點，曾文水庫絕對不可以蓋光電板，這一家光電業者還申請要在水庫上面蓋光電板，它被嘉義縣議會做成決議暫緩，是暫緩，沒有撤銷喔，我希望這個案子經濟部要嚴審。曾文水庫是嘉南地區大的水庫的命脈，怎麼可以允許這麼荒謬在水庫上面去蓋光電板？既然我們已經夠用了，我覺得這一類水庫、學校、醫院、社區應該都要禁止，不應該再入侵了，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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麼樣讓新世代有更多的一些生涯發展的一些可能跟放眼全世界我想這是我們努力的但是委員剛才所提的那些怎麼樣在教學雙語教學裡邊全員授課裡邊的教學品質事實上我們也要求各大學要有一些"},{"start":286.823,"end":288.083,"text":"本席基本上希望部長能夠正視這個問題要求現在這個大學裡面實施10%的EMI的教學基本上是不合理的"},{"start":304.289,"end":308.113,"text":"我認為這應該就是開放讓每個大學能夠自主自治去決定去思考哪一個專業哪一個學院哪一個課程它適合用EMI而不應該定KPI的指標然後最後本席也希望就是教育部能夠一個月之內提出全英語授課EMI的執行狀況部長就事後書面回應好嗎我們會把這個相關的一些報告"},{"start":328.732,"end":329.254,"text":"王潘請提供評估報告"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:25:40 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有請經濟部郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":19.969,"end":40.274,"text":"委員好部長好上次院會總質詢的時候我請教我們的行政院院長卓榮泰卓院長有關於在電力、能源、發電、配比賴清德政府的路徑那個時候你應該是因公出國沒有在院會裡但是次長來了"},{"start":42.015,"end":62.932,"text":"國發處會主委也在旁邊上個會期在經濟組總質詢的時候我提出這個問題我必須要先跟部長講對整個再生能源發展的路徑一片空白我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝因為那一天包括院長以及兩個部會最重要的主管在質詢台上完全沒有辦法"},{"start":64.033,"end":91.078,"text":"回答我所提出來的問題那當然在議會的時候總執行沒有辦法回答問題我一定給行政部門時間回去好好的思考回去好好的規劃因為能源轉型電力配比不能只有口號如果只有口號的話那接下來接下來大家會非常的擔心政府不是這樣子幹的"},{"start":92.758,"end":115.399,"text":"我想把這個基本的前提先跟部長說明完了以後我們來先確認一件事嘛第一個事情之前蔡英文總統2025的時候 再生能源佔比要達到20%那基本上是確定跳票了啦確定跳票了那所以我們的賴清德總統提出了一個新的目標到2026年的時候要實現20%那政府"},{"start":120.043,"end":122.624,"text":"按照經濟部行政院會後提供給我的資料來我們先來看第一段"},{"start":144.738,"end":157.422,"text":"第一段是到2026年的11月就賴清德總統所講的2026年的11月從現在2024年到2026年的11月要再增加9.5%過去8年增加了4.9%接下來的兩年三個月要再增加9.5%部長你覺得這個實際不實際"},{"start":171.325,"end":196.956,"text":"我報告這個委員我想這個不是線性的關係這個我們在原本來2025年就可以達成的目標因為一些材料的關係因為戰爭的關係所以他必須要在延11個月到2026年的11月我想以我們現在所了解的進度這個目標應該是可以達成的"},{"start":197.437,"end":204.073,"text":"這目標可以達成剛剛部長講得很好這不是線性的關係嘛那如果不是線性的關係的話部長"},{"start":207.425,"end":231.741,"text":"當過企業的董事長是針對這整個進度啊你可以回去看一下些如果不是線性的關係看可不可以寫個函數啊寫個函數出來讓大家了解我們政府怎麼規劃我為什麼說這樣講如果不是線性的關係來我們再接下來往後看結果到了2028年的時候在一年一個月只增加1.3%"},{"start":234.073,"end":259.811,"text":"那很怪囉兩年三個月火速飛快可以增加9.5%在一年一個月只可以增加1.3%剛剛部長講得很好啊這不是線性的關係啊你要函數解釋也可以啊但我沒有辦法理解的是這個到底是一個什麼樣子的進度規劃你看了不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":261.79,"end":289.041,"text":"這是裝置量的問題我們的政府我們的政府在做這些目標設定的時候當然啦齁今天你在這邊所講的話在國會都會留下記錄嗎當然時間到了以後有兌現沒有兌現到時候都可以檢證只不過說在我國比較遺憾的也是很多企業界在詬病的我們的政府喊口號講計畫是很會"},{"start":291.602,"end":315.88,"text":"到時候在檢驗的時候啊 通常是什麼 不堪檢驗 不堪檢驗因為呢 你到2028年 你到2028年的時候再增加1.3到了2030年的時候 突然又要增加8.7部長 你真的有看過 這個目標寫出來的時候 他們有給你詳細的內容嗎還是口號隨便喊一喊"},{"start":317.062,"end":342.87,"text":"根據這個委員剛才的這個數字啊我在這個部裡面我們在討論的時候是有這些數字我也跟委員一樣懷疑達成率會多少但是以目前他們所掌握的這個數字確實是可以履約的好部長你顯然看到了一些我沒有看到的數字嗎他們怎麼跟你報告的"},{"start":344.062,"end":348.4,"text":"怎麼樣透過這種非常詭異的速度"},{"start":349.229,"end":350.009,"text":"各位委員他是因為風場不一樣"},{"start":377.879,"end":403.468,"text":"然後那個風機的這個設置的這個速度跟時間不一樣沒有關係啦部長你來自企業界我相信企業界的人士喜歡看實際的數字嘛喜歡看data嘛具體要怎麼落實嘛不是數字隨便填一填嘛所以我才說顯然你有看到一些基礎資料是我們其他委員都沒看到的是不是可以提供給大家"},{"start":405.189,"end":425.7,"text":"有困難嗎?可以 沒困難可以嘛 那我們再講比較具體的就好 因為時間到我只問最後一個問題我再講比較具體的是剛剛那個是overall的數字嘛那我們現在就要切細的看喔包括太陽光電包括風力你們的占比到底要怎麼樣調整怎麼樣變化"},{"start":428.061,"end":440.449,"text":"按照目前經濟部所交給我的是說就太陽光電的部分你們到2026年的時候會增加到9.4%到2028年的時候會增加到10%現在是多少部長你知道嗎5.2現在是5.2嘛所以到2026年11月的時候可以到9.4你看到的數字也有信心"},{"start":458.342,"end":485.579,"text":"報告這個這個太陽能是比較快的大概兩年啊就可以達到預定的目標阿其他的風力阿或者是其他的燃煤阿或者是燃氣的都要六年才有辦法按照您剛所講太陽能比較快嘛所以從現在開始算大概兩年可以增加4%多嘛對嘛然後到2028年的時候只能增加0.6%"},{"start":487.977,"end":511.879,"text":"這個部長您看一下你們經濟部給我的數字這沒有錯因為這個還是要看場域啦阿我們是可以同意他沒有關係一樣會後把你看的data跟大家講因為這個函數阿真的太奇怪了不是他沒有函數關係啦沒有關係嘛你基本上面的基礎資料提供給大家嘛我看看你們到底是怎麼做計畫的嘛"},{"start":512.499,"end":531.206,"text":"接下來要達成你們的目標,你們太陽光電還要增加多少GW,地面型的?增加5GW你們上來齁,要協助部長齁,基礎資料自己要掌握好啦"},{"start":532.299,"end":543.562,"text":"這個都是你們經濟部給的數字啦從2016年到現在2024年6月5GW未來還要再增加多少要達到你們的目標到2026年要6.8GW接下來6.8GW需要多少土地"},{"start":556.344,"end":580.58,"text":"6.8GW如果扣掉地面型跟屋頂型的話沒有沒有6.8全部都是地面型的啦如果6.8GW大概就叫6千公頃的土地怎麼6.8GW是只有純地面型的你都不是那麼清楚喔清楚6.8GW需要幾公頃約6千公頃的土地盤點好了嗎這部分還要跨部會的協商所以現在還沒有盤點好嗎是嗎請部長"},{"start":586.022,"end":608.99,"text":"報告委員剛部長講裝置容量嘛那你要裝這個東西我也是跟你講地面型的嘛就要土地嘛但是站在你旁邊那位先生說還要跨部會協商嘛所以你看到的基礎資料您所講的裝置容量現在連地在哪裡都還沒有盤點我有說錯嗎報告委員 這個地的部分我們跟農委會都有在談"},{"start":611.471,"end":632.805,"text":"謝謝黃委員時間超過很多農業部的部分事實上是有您剛才說的沒有東西剛剛主席主席已經站起來提醒我時間到了最後一樣會後請您把你們盤點好的地可以按照這樣子的計畫進行把那個具體的計畫內容提供給我這樣可以嗎可以好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:18:28 - 13:29:02","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155613","gazette":{"lineno":1107,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時18分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，上次院會總質詢的時候，我請教行政院卓榮泰院長有關於電力、能源、發電配比賴清德政府的路徑，那時候你應該是因公出國，沒有在院會裡，但是次長來了，國發會主委也在旁邊。上個會期在經濟組總質詢的時候，我提出這個問題，我必須要先跟部長講，對整個再生能源發展的路徑一片空白，我非常地驚訝，因為那天包括院長以及兩個部會最重要的主管在質詢臺上完全沒有辦法回答我所提出來的問題。當然，在院會的時候，總質詢沒有辦法回答問題，我一定給行政部門時間回去好好思考、回去好好規劃，因為能源轉型、電力配比不能只有口號，如果只有口號的話，接下來大家會非常的擔心，政府不是這樣子幹的。","把這個基本的前提先跟部長說明，完了以後，我們先來確認一件事，第一個事情，之前蔡英文總統宣示2025年再生能源占比要達到20%，基本上是確定跳票了，確定跳票了，所以我們的賴清德總統提出了一個新的目標，到2026年的時候要實現20%。政府畫了這樣的一個目標，喊了這樣的一個口號，我就看到底這個路徑是怎麼樣。","請部長先仔細看，我們從2016年到2024年，過去8年再生能源增加了4.9%。按照經濟部、行政院會後提供給我的資料，我們先來看第一段，第一段是到2026年的11月，就賴清德總統所講的2026年的11月，從現在2024年到2026年的11月要再增加9.5%。過去8年增加了4.9%，接下來的2年3個月要再增加9.5%，部長，你覺得這個實際不實際？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個不是線性的關係啦！我們本來在2025年就可以達成目標，因為一些材料的關係、因為戰爭的關係，所以必須要再延11個月，到2026年的11月，我想以我們現在所了解的進度，這個目標應該是可以達成的。"],["黃委員國昌：這個目標可以達成，剛剛部長講得很好，這不是線性的關係嘛，如果不是線性的關係的話，部長當過企業的董事長……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：針對這整個進度，你可以回去看一下，如果不是線性的關係，看可不可以寫個函數出來，讓大家了解我們政府怎麼規劃的。我為什麼這樣講？如果不是線性的關係，我們再接下來往後看，結果到了2028年的時候，再1年1個月只增加1.3%，那很怪喔！2年3個月火速、飛快地可以增加9.5%，再1年1個月只可以增加1.3%。剛剛部長講得很好，這不是線性的關係，你要用函數解釋也可以，但我沒有辦法理解的是，這個到底是一個什麼樣子的進度規劃？你看了不會覺得很奇怪嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這是裝置量的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：我們的政府在做這些目標設定的時候……當然，今天你在這邊所講的話，在國會都會留下紀錄。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：時間到了以後，有兌現、沒有兌現，到時候都可以檢證。只不過在我國比較遺憾的，也是很多企業界在詬病的，我們的政府喊口號、講計畫是很會，到時候檢驗的時候通常是什麼？不堪檢驗啊！不堪檢驗！因為你到2028年的時候再增加1.3%，到了2030年的時候突然又要增加8.7%。部長，你真的有看過這個目標寫出來的時候他們給你的詳細內容嗎？還是口號隨便喊一喊？"],["郭部長智輝：根據委員剛才的數字，在部裡面我們在討論的時候是有這些數字，我也跟委員一樣懷疑達成率會多少，但是以目前他們所掌握的數字，確實是可以履約的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，部長，你顯然看到了一些我沒有看到的數字，他們怎麼跟你報告的、怎麼樣透過這一種非常詭異的速度，接下來的2年3個月要增加9.5%，然後再往後的1年1個月突然慢下來了，只增加1.3%，接下來2年又加速了，又到8.7%，這個全部都是你們給我的數字。顯然有一些基礎的判斷資料可能部長有掌握了那麼複雜的函數基礎資料，但我沒掌握，會後提供給我，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，它是因為風場不一樣，然後那個風機設置的速度跟時間不一樣，所以造成……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，部長你來自企業界，我相信企業界的人士喜歡看實際的數字嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：喜歡看data嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：具體要怎麼落實嘛，不是數字隨便填一填嘛，所以我才說顯然你有看到一些基礎資料是我們其他委員都沒看到的，是不是可以提供給大家？有困難嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以，沒困難。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛。我們再講比較具體的就好，因為時間到，我只問最後一個問題。我再講比較具體的是，剛剛那個是overall的數字，我們現在就要切細地看，包括太陽光電、包括風力的占比到底要怎麼樣調整、怎麼樣變化？按照目前經濟部交給我的是，就太陽光電的部分，到2026年的時候會增加到9.4%，到2028年的時候會增加到10%。現在是多少，部長你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：5.2。"],["黃委員國昌：現在是5.2，所以到2026年11月的時候可以到9.4，你看這數字也有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，太陽能是比較快的，大概2年就可以達到預定的目標，其他的風力、燃煤或者是燃氣，都要6年才有辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：按照您剛剛所講，太陽能比較快嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：所以從現在開始算，大概兩年可以增加4%多嘛，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：然後到2028年的時候只能增加0.6%。"],["郭部長智輝：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，您看一下你們經濟部給我的數字。"],["郭部長智輝：這沒有錯，因為這個還是要看場域，我們是可以同意它來設置……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，一樣，會後把你看的data跟大家講，因為這個函數真的太奇怪了！"],["郭部長智輝：它沒有函數關係啦。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係嘛，你基本上面的基礎資料提供給大家嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我看看你們到底是怎麼做計畫的嘛。接下來要達成你們的目標，太陽光電還要增加多少GW，地面型的？"],["郭部長智輝：增加5GW。"],["黃委員國昌：你們幕僚上來要協助部長，基礎資料自己要掌握好，這個都是你們經濟部給的數字。從2016年到現在2024年6月5GW，未來還要再增加多少，才能達到你們的目標到2026年要6.8GW？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，剛剛我講的5GW就是到2025年。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來6.8GW需要多少土地？"],["游署長振偉：6.8GW如果扣掉地面型跟屋頂型的話……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，6.8全部都是地面型的啦。"],["游署長振偉：如果6.8GW大概就要6,000公頃的土地。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼6.8GW只有純地面型的，你都不是那麼清楚喔。"],["游署長振偉：清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：6.8GW需要幾公頃？"],["郭部長智輝：6,000。"],["游署長振偉：約6,000公頃的土地。"],["黃委員國昌：盤點好了嗎？"],["游署長振偉：這部分還要跨部會的協商。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在還沒有盤點好嘛，是嗎？請部長……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛部長講裝置容量嘛，你要裝這個東西，我也是跟你講地面型的，就要土地，但是站在你旁邊那位先生說還要跨部會協商，所以你看到的基礎資料、你所講的裝置容量，現在連地在哪裡都還沒有盤點好，我有說錯嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個地的部分我們跟農委會都有在談……"],["黃委員國昌：跟農業部嘛。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：謝謝黃委員，時間超過很多……"],["郭部長智輝：農業部的部分事實上有您剛才說的6,000公頃的地。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，主席已經站起來提醒我時間到了。最後一樣，會後請您就你們盤點好的地，可以按照這樣子的計畫進行，把那個具體的計畫內容提供給我，這樣可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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為事法性不足是不是不應該用民防法應該要全民動員不是去年停掉是因為它有這個系統建制的問題有治安"},{"start":387.81,"end":408.757,"text":"所以沒有說不做所以那個治安的那個部分系統停報的部分已經停止辦了好 我了解了就是說你的意思是說去年停下來不是說不做只是有治安跟系統的問題所以停下來所以今年繼續做所以從頭到尾就是要做這件事嘛名冊不用報只要留效被查一樣嘛就是要統計嘛一樣嘛就是要做這件事情只是不用報嘛所以是系統問題這個事情還要繼續做嘛那"},{"start":411.772,"end":421.601,"text":"那部長剛剛講說這個東西跟暫時無關對不對部長你知道全民防衛動員準備法這個法的立法精神是什麼你知道嗎他是為什麼要立這個法他具體核心內容你知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":425.523,"end":440.861,"text":"我講他主要就是也希望能夠提供在這個青少年對這個全民國防然後對地方整個當國家有一些這個災害或者天災或者一些特別絕對不是災害啦你看啦你看這個全民防衛動員法"},{"start":442.222,"end":464.984,"text":"他怎麼講的?第二條動員區分階段有準備階段跟實施階段實施階段是只要總統有發布緊急命令的時候或者暫時發生總統發布緊急命令所以就只打仗的時候要去處理啦然後第三條上面就講得很清楚嘛動員實施階段統合運用全民力量全民當然包括學生嘛要支援軍事作戰"},{"start":466.601,"end":475.233,"text":"所以絕對不是只有你講的防災這個法的精神就是戰事發生支援軍事作戰非常清楚"},{"start":476.954,"end":494.92,"text":"所以我在這邊跟拜託部長很多人為什麼沒填如果說陳如你講的就是要去防災或幹嘛後勤支援我相信很多學生也不見得不願意啊老師也不見得不願意發可是到目前為止沒有人講得清楚你講一套罰寫一套"},{"start":496.821,"end":506.803,"text":"去年講一套現在講一套然後資安還外洩那你在做這個過程當中誰又能夠對你產生信任感勒敢去填那個表格勒"},{"start":507.637,"end":534.899,"text":"各位老師全民防衛動員它是涉及到行政院各部會所以它涵掛的是整體那教育部處理的只有學校的這一塊那就是學校學校所以不好啊還是社區關懷還有避難引導的服務你仔細不好意思你仔細去看全民防衛動員準備法以及各個學校寫的計畫我並不是你講的這樣這個法是行政院各相關部會共同參與的學生今年服勤只是其中一小塊"},{"start":536.564,"end":540.896,"text":"沒有那這是你講的但是我們看白紙黑字法律跟計畫講的跟你不一樣啊"},{"start":541.909,"end":561.334,"text":"就是不一樣啊那一般如果大家出現那種意見上的差異就要看白紙黑字啊你自己看這個是高雄市我剛秀過的動員準備計畫啊他就講說如需親嚴協助勤務得向本市聯合應變指揮管制中心申請啊那聯合應變管制中心要幹什麼都可以啊沒有那是你講的啦那你看這個計畫上面等一下不要急你看計畫上面"},{"start":571.036,"end":578.794,"text":"下面說動員實施以學校為基地以務實行動展現全民防衛機制防災叫防衛嗎?"},{"start":581.581,"end":604.768,"text":"真的如果發生戰爭的時候一定會有災民需要收容那不是防衛嘛你是防衛災民喔你要把災民趕出去喔你是照顧災民不是防衛災民不要玩文字遊戲上面寫的防衛就是暫時防衛我現在就跟你講如果你想的跟寫的不一樣那你要叫他們修正嘛現在教育部的問題就講不清楚大家才會質疑嘛那你一直在這邊凹這個東西有意義嗎你講的跟寫的就不一樣啊"},{"start":605.848,"end":619.136,"text":"最後我要問一下部長昨天總質詢的時候那個我看到卓榮泰院長講說班班有鮮奶的政策因為實施非常困難所以如果學校有困難就不要他們繼續勉強他們喝鮮奶有這句話嗎我看到新聞是這樣寫的"},{"start":624.187,"end":650.375,"text":"我想讓學童有一個更好的蓋子跟這個蛋白質補充上次我們也有這個專題當時你聽我講因為我沒時間我講一講一下因為當時講了很多斑斑喝鮮奶的問題教育部當時有承諾要解決那最後就可以落實斑斑有鮮奶結果昨天卓榮泰院長講的是說如果無法落實的話我們就不勉強那些學校喝了這是什麼跟什麼啊"},{"start":651.494,"end":652.094,"text":"請教育部長鄭英耀"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:09:32 - 13:20:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案。）","id":"155611","gazette":{"lineno":1251,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時9分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，我也想問一下校園服勤同意書。我今天問一下，為什麼特別在針對校園服勤同意書這個議題上，教育部的說法永遠都在改變？前兩天傳出這樣的消息，但是對於到底有沒有發學生服勤同意書，教育部說「不要製造恐慌啊！這是假的！」為什麼第一時間要否認啊？剛剛部長並沒有否認啊！你說就是有這件事啊！那為什麼當時要否認呢？部長，這個新聞你沒看過喔？"],["鄭部長英耀：關於這個，我們在內部行政上有一些……我們來檢討。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你們是教育部，教育部是全國最高教育單位，全國最高教育單位在記者求證時可以說「我再問一下」，但不能說謊啊！如果連教育部都說謊的話，誰還會相信教育部？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們並沒有說謊，是就……"],["葉委員元之：那你去告自由時報，自由時報說是假的、教育部說勿製造恐慌。你去告自由時報啦！好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，跟委員報告，整起事件事實上是……"],["葉委員元之：你後來講的我都知道，我現在是問為什麼第一時間要否認嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是能夠請……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係啦！沒關係啦！這個只是……"],["吳司長林輝：當時被問的是我們是否發放「戰時動員意願調查」，但沒有啊！我們沒有發放……"],["葉委員元之：哇賽！你要玩文字遊戲。好，沒有關係，因為這不是我主要要問的問題，而是跟我等一下要問的都有關係，我是希望教育部在回應的時候要講得精準嘛！要精準嘛！好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["葉委員元之：我要先講一點，我覺得你們做這件事情時，過程非常粗糙，發生讓我無法想像的一件事！你們可知道你們在發服勤同意書的過程當中，很多資料都外洩了，哇！這真的是很嚴重的國安問題啊！我們來看一下，這是高雄市政府114年度學校青年服勤動員準備計畫，這項計畫上面寫著「內閱」、「限閱」，也就是說只有內部的人可以看。而我以紅線畫出來的部分是「本執行計畫僅限動員業務幹部持用」，但我也不是業務幹部，為什麼我會有？你問我是不是駭客，或是我從哪裡偷來的？都不是！我是google到的！你們提出一個動員準備計畫，說是內部的機密資料，結果人家隨便就可以google到，你是不怕對岸看光光喔？","除了這個之外，我再給部長看，這是有些學校發放上去的服勤人數統計表：南港高中服勤人0、政大附中服勤0、國立臺灣戲曲學院服勤0。這是我偷來的嗎？不是！這也是從網路google到的。所以你現在是要讓這些資料在網路上大公開喔？讓全世界都知道到底哪些學校服勤人數是多少、還有我們的計畫是怎麼樣？這已經不是資安問題了啦！而是大家不小心到把這些不應該公開的資料都公開了，那你告訴我們，這些學生去參與你們的服勤計畫會放心嗎？連他的個資都可能會外洩欸！部長，你要不要去了解一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["葉委員元之：什麼「可以」？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是說委員希望我去了解……"],["葉委員元之：這麼嚴重的問題我跟你講了，你卻說「可以」？你聽到應該要比我震驚好不好！如果我是你的話，我就會說「怎麼會發生這種事情！我震怒！我要去查！」。"],["鄭部長英耀：不，我剛剛講的可以是指……"],["葉委員元之：那麼嚴重、資料還外洩，結果我告訴部長之後，部長只說「可以」？可以就是可以也不可以。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：好啦！部長，你的態度就讓我發現你們……"],["鄭部長英耀：我的意思是說我們會去了解、去查。"],["葉委員元之：可以啦！我知道，可以啦！可以啦！我覺得你們的態度就是這樣嘛！難怪大家會很緊張嘛！","好啦！部長，現在我們看到大部分學校的服勤人數都是0，為什麼？因為你們發文給教育局，教育局發文給學校，但學校中有些根本就沒有發下去嘛！直接填0。為什麼？因為學校也不知道這個要幹嘛啊！一方面，發下去之後，如果是18歲以上學生，在學校直接可以填，18歲以下還要拿回去給家長填，萬一家長問這是什麼，學校也答不出來啊！為什麼答不出來？因為教育部的講法永遠都在改變啊！所以學校乾脆連發都不發，直接填0了啦！所以每個數字都是0。而在臺北市，我知道他們有統計出來，也只有一成的人有意願啦！那為什麼九成的人沒意願？是臺灣人不相信政府嗎？不是！是大家從頭到尾都搞不清楚這到底是什麼！我們來看一下網路上的網友怎麼講。你看有臺大的學生說「選對的人，走對的路，兒子當後勤，爸爸上戰場。」還有別的學校網友說這種表格發下去，全班都會寫「無」吧！大家都搞不清楚這個是什麼。真的！從頭到尾都講不清楚。","我就這項計畫的內容向你就教一下，因為早上我也看到部長您對媒體的回應，你說這跟打仗完全無關嘛！對不對？完全就是可能在打仗以後，大家做後勤支援吧！大概是這個意思嘛！對不對？就是跟打仗完全無關。我先問你一個問題啦！去年其實也傳出類似的消息，就是要求學校統計，然後要登錄到「全民防衛動員資訊整合系統」裡面，這是去年的事喔！當時教育部就說高級中等以上學校停止辦理，而且去年是根據民防法。結果今年又繼續做，至於今年是根據什麼法？剛剛徐巧芯委員問你時，你說是根據全民防衛動員法，對不對？那我的第一個問題是為什麼去年是民防法，今年是全民防衛動員法？差別在哪？為什麼今年不根據民防法？"],["吳司長林輝：主要是全民防衛動員準備法。至於根據民防法，是因為民防組織動員也涉及整個人力後勤資源。"],["葉委員元之：所以你的意思是去年停掉的原因是適法性不足，是不是？不應該用民防法，應該用全民防衛動員準備法？"],["吳司長林輝：不是，去年停掉是因為有系統建置的問題、有資安考慮。"],["葉委員元之：所以沒有說不做？"],["吳司長林輝：在資安方面，系統填報的部分已經停止辦理了。"],["葉委員元之：好，我了解了，你的意思是去年停下來不是不做，只是因為有資安跟系統問題就停下來，今年繼續做。所以從頭到尾就是要做這件事嘛！"],["吳司長林輝：名冊不用報，只要留校備查。"],["葉委員元之：一樣嘛！就是要統計嘛！一樣嘛！就是要做這件事情，只是不用報嘛！所以是系統問題，但這件事還是要繼續做嘛！","部長剛剛講這件事跟戰時無關對不對？部長，你知道全民防衛動員準備法這部法的立法精神是什麼？你知道嗎？為什麼要立這個法？具體核心內容你知道是什麼嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想主要也是希望提供青少年對全民國防、對地方，當國家有災害或者是天災、或者是特別的……"],["葉委員元之：絕對不是針對災害啦！你看全民防衛動員法，它怎麼講的？根據第二條，動員區分階段有準備階段跟實施階段，實施階段是只要戰事發生，總統依憲法發布緊急命令，所以就是指打仗的時候要去處理啦！然後是第三條，上面也講得很清楚嘛！「動員實施階段統合運用全民力量」，全民當然包括學生嘛！而且要支援軍事作戰，所以絕對不只如你講的防災，這部法的精神就是在戰事發生時支援軍事作戰！非常清楚。","我在這邊要拜託部長，為什麼很多人沒填？如果誠如你講的，就是參與防災等後勤支援，我相信很多學生也不見得不願意啊！老師也不見得不願意發啊！可是到目前為止，沒有人講得清楚，你講一套，法寫一套；去年講一套，現在講一套，然後資安還外洩，在這個過程中，又有誰能對你產生信任感、敢去填那個表格呢？"],["吳司長林輝：全民防衛動員的業務是涉及行政院各部會，所以含括的是整體，教育部處理的只有學校這一塊……"],["葉委員元之：那學校這部分就處理不好啊！"],["吳司長林輝：我們還是以社區關懷、避難引導、公共服務，確實有所區隔。"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，你仔細去看全民防衛動員準備法以及各個學校寫的計畫，並不是你講的這樣。"],["吳司長林輝：我先說，那個法是由行政院各相關部會共同參與的，學生青年服勤只是其中一小塊。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，這是你講的，但是我們看到白紙黑字的法律跟計畫，講的跟你不一樣啊！就是不一樣啊！如果大家出現意見上的差異，就是看白紙黑字啊！你自己看，這是我剛剛秀過的高雄市動員準備計畫啊！上面就講「如需青年協助勤務，得向本市聯合應變指揮管制中心申請」啊！那聯合應變指揮管制中心要幹什麼都可以欸！"],["吳司長林輝：服勤的範圍就是避難引導、社區關懷、公共服務、行政支援。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，那是你講的啦！你看計畫上面……"],["吳司長林輝：那是我們依法令所公布的計畫內容。"],["葉委員元之：等一下，不要急！你看計畫上說動員實施以學校為基地，以務實行動展現全民防衛機制啊！防災是防衛嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：在真的發生戰爭的時候，一定會有災民需要收容、需要關懷、需要協助。"],["葉委員元之：那不是防衛嘛！難道你要防衛災民喔？你要把災民趕出去喔？是照顧災民，不是防衛災民欸！"],["吳司長林輝：自救、救人……"],["葉委員元之：不要玩文字遊戲，上面寫的防衛就是戰時防衛！我現在是跟你講，如果你想的跟寫的不一樣，那你就要叫他們修正嘛！現在教育部的問題就在於講不清楚，大家才會質疑嘛！你在這邊一直拗這個東西有意義嗎？你講的跟寫的就不一樣啊！","最後，我要問一下部長，昨天總質詢的時候，卓榮泰院長說「班班有鮮奶」政策因為實施非常困難，如果學校有困難，就不要勉強他們喝鮮奶，有這句話嗎？我看到的新聞是這樣寫的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想讓學童有更好的鈣質跟蛋白質補充是好事。"],["葉委員元之：上次我們也排這個專題……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們……"],["葉委員元之：你聽我講，因為沒時間了，我要講一下。當時講了很多班班喝鮮奶的問題，教育部也承諾要解決，最後就可以落實班班有鮮奶。結果昨天卓榮泰院長講的是如果無法落實的話，就不勉強那些學校喝了！這是什麼跟什麼啊！這是什麼跟什麼啊！你們要去解決問題嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：院長的意思就是我們會做滾動……"],["葉委員元之：「我們的政策落實很困難，對於學校，我們就不勉強你。」學校不是不想喝，學校是喝不到。所以還是請部長秉持班班有鮮奶的精神，讓班班都有鮮奶，不要變成兩人喝一瓶鮮奶。謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指導。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","再來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:10:48","end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有一個管道啊委員其實這個都一直這個是有有這個通報機制的啦那麼就業服務法裡面我們對這樣的被資遣的移工當然他就是允許他轉換雇主嘛"},{"start":253.038,"end":278.191,"text":"好這是第一個對他的保障第二個我們在所謂的大量解雇法齁其實在如果他可以跟業主協商的話我們沒有排除移工的移工都可以如果說協商雙方可以給付之前或者是什麼費之前費什麼這些移工都一樣可以享用到對那麼關於外籍移工的問題是有他的特殊性啦因為"},{"start":279.692,"end":299.029,"text":"外景漁工又分遠洋跟近海您提到的像監察院他糾正的這個是近海的這是算近海的他確實是適用牢籍法沒有錯不過他有一個特性我們近海的漁業他要出海捕魚他會有中間休餘"},{"start":301.691,"end":319.517,"text":"秀芳秀喜的因為魚會游來游去他有季節性有的時候就這個時候才需要他就跟農業一樣很農忙的時候他才需要上工他沒有的時候他就要休息那那像這樣子你們怎麼就是監察院都已經糾正了可是委員這個也是我們要跟監委溝通的啦"},{"start":321.118,"end":344.093,"text":"你也要考慮我們的產業特性啊。比如說我的農業,我就是有農盲跟這個的時候,或者是漁業也一樣。你不能說一律強制要這個漁業的僱主,他在休餘的期間也要僱用他,這個就真的是...不是很好,那這些外籍義工他已經到台灣,就已經在這邊了,那你怎麼去解決這個問題?"},{"start":347.295,"end":348.035,"text":"那我請署長再補充說明一下"},{"start":360.336,"end":382.662,"text":"我跟委員報告這一次因為新北市它發生的這個休餘的情況確實我們跟農業部漁業署就發現到這種情況之下可能會對外籍移工有造成一個權益上的受損所以第一個監察院當初在關心的時候其實我們跟漁業署現在已經建立了預警跟通報機制那因為所有漁船如果要休餘他是要通報漁政機關"},{"start":383.882,"end":413.882,"text":"﹗"},{"start":413.882,"end":430.879,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":431.059,"end":431.079,"text":"﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":452.523,"end":478.106,"text":"那接下來我想請教就是說我們在這幾年當中我們年輕朋友在求職的時候大部分都是透過這個網站可能就是這個私立就業服務機構提供的這個網站那有的可能就是一些業者自己本身架設網站公司機構的網站那我想請教因為我在今年暑假的時候我就碰到"},{"start":479.286,"end":507.083,"text":"兩位他是這個大學剛畢業那他是透過這個公司機構自己架設的這個網站求職結果他這個根本就是一個詐騙的公司那結果這個新這個新鮮人算是剛進到這個就業市場的這個新鮮人其實他完全根本也不知道老闆叫他去做的是違法的老闆請他提供"},{"start":507.623,"end":530.143,"text":"她的銀行帳號請她去公園有客戶要給公司錢收貨款就去公園收貨款結果警察就在公園附近埋伏結果就把這兩個抓起來了"},{"start":531.734,"end":555.717,"text":"所以我想請教就是說勞動部針對我們所有的年輕人他的習慣求職他就是透過這個網站就業私立的就服的這個網站或者是我們自己勞動部的這個網站或者是公司機構自己架設的網站那怎麼樣是讓這些年輕人不要因為這樣子然後受騙"},{"start":556.698,"end":557.119,"text":"我請署長說明一下"},{"start":571.798,"end":594.989,"text":"委員報告因為網路詐騙這個情況其實跨部會對這個問題都很重視我們現在在目前我們只有幾個措施第一個就是說在民間的能力網站我們已經建立了一個合作機制就是有一些黑名單過去我們就把它下架禁止它刊登第二個就是說民眾可能有這樣的一個物資認知上的問題我們加強宣導我們有求職方便的一些措施"},{"start":595.629,"end":622.806,"text":"那最後就是說網路現在比較需要跨部會合作與司法警政單位的就是像剛剛委員提到的個人私人架設的或是說像那種FB這種社群媒體因為這個東西都不是在我們目前救護法規管的範圍那現在未來就是說在訴發部跟警政署現在會有一個跨部會的一個平台那我們未來會去合作就是說對於一些有疑似的案件我們就啟動跟司法警察一起來做一個查辦"},{"start":623.206,"end":623.226,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:07:58 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13:18:46","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155610","gazette":{"lineno":1380,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（13時8分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，從520上任到現在，差不多有5個月的時間，我想請教在這五個月當中勞動部要怎麼樣確實保障每位勞工的權益？其實我最近也聽到很多，像是傳統產業現在非常的不景氣，這是真的，雖然我們看到的一些電子產業、半導體產業算是非常的好，但是傳統產業真的非常不景氣。因此，我想要請教，針對勞工的權益，剛剛在楊委員質詢時，部長說到撥補就是改革，那麼對於勞工的權益，勞動部這邊還有什麼需要再加強的？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員的提醒，我想勞工權益永遠都會是我們需要努力的方向及目標。當前對我來講就是希望能夠提升勞工薪資，這也是我上任以來一個很重要的工作。那麼要務實的面對缺工的問題，也不能讓缺工等於低薪，這也是我另外要面對的課題。因此，在這中間的權衡拿捏，當然我們都必須去面對。關於委員提示的傳產所面臨的困境，我們也看到了這個問題，雖然最低工資有漲上來，但我也對中小微企業提出了補助方案，每一個員工可以補助到1萬元、一個企業最多可以補助10萬元，由最近已經通過的就安基金來部分支應，與交通部、經濟部一起合作這個方案，尤其是針對小微、傳產及服務業這樣子的行業。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我們知道勞工算是比較弱勢，所以我們也希望勞動部針對勞工權益的部分，真的要時時知道勞工非常的辛苦、要如何去保障他們的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教你，監察院表示勞動部與新北市政府對於大量解僱的外籍漁工沒有一個有效的通報機制，因為外籍漁工也沒有勞保，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：有，有勞保。"],["黃委員秀芳：他有勞保？"],["何部長佩珊：有、有、有。"],["黃委員秀芳：就業保險有將外籍漁工納進去？"],["何部長佩珊：有，我們現在都讓近海的漁業適用勞基法，而且他也有勞保。"],["黃委員秀芳：就業保險的部分也有納進去嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：就保的部分是沒有，就保沒有，不好意思。"],["黃委員秀芳：就保沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：對，有勞保、有勞保。"],["黃委員秀芳：就保沒有，怎麼樣保障這些外籍漁工？因為我們從媒體上看到，這些外籍漁工一旦被解雇之後，他們的生活確實是非常的辛苦，不知道勞動部與地方政府針對這個部分要如何保障這些外籍漁工？在媒體這樣公布出來之後，甚至是被外國的媒體公布，其實對臺灣的整體形象非常不好，所以我認為勞動部針對這個部分，如果他們要被解雇的話，應該要有一個有效的通報、要有一個管道啊！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實這個是有通報機制的。根據就業服務法，我們對這樣被資遣的漁工，其實是允許他轉換雇主，這是第一個給他的保障。第二個，我們有所謂的大量解雇法，如果他可以與業主協商的話，我們並沒有排除移工，如果雙方可以協商給付資遣費或什麼，移工一樣都可以享用到這些。關於外籍漁工的問題，其實是有它的特殊性，因為外籍漁工又分遠洋與近海，像監察院糾正的這個算是近海的，它確實是適用勞基法，沒有錯。不過，它也有一個特性，近海漁業出海捕魚會有中間休漁，也就是休息，因為魚會游來游去，而且有季節性，就與農業一樣，農忙的時候才需要上工，沒有的時候他就要休息。"],["黃委員秀芳：但是監察院都已經糾正了，你們怎麼去處理這個問題？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個也是我們要與監委溝通的啦！你也要考慮我們的產業特性啊！譬如農業就是有農忙的時候，而漁業也是一樣，你不能一律強制漁業的雇主在休漁期間也要僱用漁工，這個就真的是……"],["黃委員秀芳：這些外籍漁工就已經在這邊了，你要如何解決這個問題？"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們要輔導他轉換雇主，譬如在休漁期間，雇主不需要他的時候，可能輔導他在……我請署長再補充說明一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這次因為新北市發生休漁的情況，確實我們與農業部漁業署就發現這種情況可能會對外籍漁工造成權益上的受損，因此，第一個，當初監察院提出關心之後，其實我們與漁業署現在已經建立了預警及通報機制。因為所有的漁船休漁都要通報漁政機關，然而漁政機關過去確實是沒有將這個訊息傳達給我們，現在我們已經建立一個橫向管道，未來他們會定期將這些休漁的漁船與我們勾稽，在勾稽後如果確認這個漁工真的受到休漁的影響而沒有工作，第一時間我們就會與地方政府開始啟動我們的訪視、關懷。這裡面可能會有幾個不同的情況，有的是因為期間過長，漁工可能沒辦法等待，我們就協助他趕快轉換。有些是因為短期的休漁，可能漁船主與漁工還是希望繼續維持，這個時候我們就會另外讓他妥善安置，不要造成安置環境的問題。針對這個部分，在我們向監察院報告之後，後續我們會依照監察院的指示……"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我們都是看新聞才得知，所以我認為真的要好好處理，不然，這個對臺灣整個形象真的非常不好，而且外籍漁工的權益也是遭受到很大的損害，因此，我希望勞動部針對這個部分與地方政府應該要有更好的處理方式，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["蔡署長孟良：了解。"],["黃委員秀芳：這幾年我們的年輕朋友求職大部分都是透過網站，可能是私立就業服務機構提供的網站、也可能是業者自己架設的公司機構網站。今年暑假時我就碰到兩位大學剛畢業的年輕人，他是透過公司機構自己架設的網站求職，結果這個根本就是一個詐騙的公司，而這位剛進入就業市場的新鮮人根本也不知道老闆要他做的是違法的事情。老闆請他提供銀行的帳號、請他去公園拿客戶要給公司的錢、要收貨款，於是他就去公園收貨款，此時警察已經在公園附近埋伏，結果就將這兩個人抓起來了。我想要請教，勞動部針對所有年輕人求職的習慣，可能是透過私立的就服網站或是勞動部的網站、或是公司機構自己架設的網站，怎麼樣讓這些年輕人不要因此而受騙？也就是如何防止詐騙？我覺得現在的詐騙真的是非常嚴重，連這個都可以詐騙，我不知道勞動部針對這個部分要如何防範？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們與警政署之間也有這樣的機制，請署長來說明一下，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，其實跨部會對於網路詐騙的問題都很重視，目前我們有幾個措施，第一個，針對民間的人力網站，我們已經建立了合作機制，而且下架過去的一些黑名單，禁止它刊登。第二個，民眾可能有這樣的誤知、認知上的問題，所以我們會加強宣導，而且有求職防騙的一些措施。最後，針對網路的部分，現在比較需要跨部會的合作，尤其是與司法警政單位。像剛剛委員提到的個人、私人架設的網站，或是像FB的那種社群媒體，因為這些東西目前都不屬於我們就服法規管的範圍，未來數發部與警政署會有一個跨部會的平台，我們也會與他們合作，針對一些疑似案件啟動與司法警察一起查辦的機制。"],["黃委員秀芳：我希望能夠從源頭，好不好？要不然，你看，剛出社會就被帶到警察局，這樣他就會有一個紀錄了。因此，我希望勞動部真的要就防止詐騙這方面再加強，好不好？謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:10:57","end_time":"2024-10-16T13:18:18+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155609","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","duration":657,"start_time":"2024-10-16T13:07:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69049711021f8239488abd6de18eea4dbe1766e2bcab8f8c7fc2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.894718750000001,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.649718750000002,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.17159375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.20534375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.85471875,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.925968750000003,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.47846875,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.06471875,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.836593750000002,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.33846875,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.38034375,"end":35.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.4347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們特別提到這些的話就是能源政策能源的配比的問題啦所以剛剛看你的那個報告書裡面特別講到核電非核不是神主牌啦既然不是的話我們就必須要討論不要有設定不要有意思形態每一個可能穩定我們的供電的我們都是我們選項進行討論是不是是"},{"start":348.55,"end":350.571,"text":"這三個前提之下可以討論"},{"start":377.853,"end":383.056,"text":"所以本席會這樣子問的意思就是說現在我們民生動漲了現在漲產業但是產業的話你們可能分為一般性跟所有必需性的一些產業去做調整這個電價但是我們看到半導體的產業他們在供電量是佔了16.5%是我們所有發電量的這個最重要他佔的比例是最高的或許我們可以研議讓使用耗電量最高的部分他也可以負責更高的電價"},{"start":407.23,"end":423.085,"text":"是 他們 我們目前的這個計價的方式 確實是這樣就是說用電最大的這個廠商 他們有一級的 我們是分級的所以 您剛所指教的這個大的用電商 他其實付的…所以半導體油比較高嗎?"},{"start":423.085,"end":424.867,"text":"是比較高的他是比較高 到14%嗎?"},{"start":424.867,"end":426.809,"text":"他現在是付的是比較高的他有到14% 15%嗎?"},{"start":426.809,"end":426.829,"text":"有"},{"start":429.16,"end":446.056,"text":"王總你要說什麼上一次這一波電價是沒有在做區別但是上一次的條價是4月份的條價是所以應該可以繼續研議可以繼續這樣子做他既然是高耗電量我們就請他多負擔一點才不會對我們民生有更大的衝擊"},{"start":447.117,"end":465.484,"text":"其他的廠商我們是根據深度節能來幫助這些比較中小的公司但是它用電耗電比較多的我們透過深度節能的方法大概可以看出績效因為每個公司產業不一樣我們可以看到大概可以省7%的電費"},{"start":469.645,"end":474.267,"text":"臺電才會轉虧為益這是非常重要的所以我們希望第一個就是部長去溝通這個我們的天然氣可不可以降價第二個就是讓我們的用電大戶高用電量的話可以調整他的電價再來的話我們希望的話就是讓我們的所有綠電都能夠穩定這個部分的話想辦法趕快達標"},{"start":498.677,"end":508.187,"text":"因為我們剛剛看你們所有的數字裡面科學數字部長喜歡說科學數字都我們擔心的是不能達標那接下來本席要講的就是離岸風電剛剛早上大家有提到那3-1 3-2的話目前的話還是國產那本席要提醒的也是跟部長講的"},{"start":517.017,"end":517.557,"text":"我想會阿沒有阿"},{"start":544.892,"end":545.593,"text":"政府所簽訂的合約內容是不能改變的"},{"start":561.695,"end":563.036,"text":"是 報告委員 我們現在的目的就是幫助國產化的這個廠商"},{"start":586.937,"end":590.58,"text":"提醒女士當然他沒有競爭力他們雖然是出的草創來成軍但是我們政府當然要輔導他但他投下去的成本一開始是這麼龐大的不能因為一開始就把他丟到國際上去跟他競爭這樣子的話他競爭力會"},{"start":615.276,"end":615.436,"text":"﹚呂玉玲"},{"start":631.757,"end":655.665,"text":"現在因為我們去遵照我們蔡英文總統的這個政策去投入了這個資金現在他們已經投入了也整軍完成了我們要繼續輔導他畢竟是國產的我們才會鞏固自己的發電能量這才是永續的好不好是沒有錯是的那請部長特別要注意注重這一點因為國產的還是需要靠我們經濟部來扶持的是好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:07:21 - 13:18:18","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155609","gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（13時7分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長辛苦了，從你一上任經濟部長，本席對你期待非常大，因為你來自產業，了解產業的需求，會從務實面來做好更多的管理，尤其是台電的虧損，我相信有你的運籌帷幄、你的經營管理，一定會讓它們轉虧為盈。早上提了很多的，從呂宋島也好，從哪裡把電運回來，這個都是10年以後的，當然要未雨綢繆，但是還是要從務實面著手，所有的案子都必須要做可行性的評估，等案子成熟之後，我們再公告、再來執行，對不對？所以我們今天就從務實面來討論。","電價現在已經上漲，雖然民生凍漲，但我們在產業上漲了12.5%，我們擔心的就是漲了產業，但是產業的成本就會轉嫁到消費者身上。我們電價連續漲了4波之後，你看民生就漲了將近12%，而產業上漲了將近42.2%。最重要的，我們要怎樣讓它轉虧為盈，本席也要請部長，我們在行政院、在經濟部也必須要有擔當，因為你不能說要政府補助才不漲電價，沒有補助就要漲電價，這變成掛在一起了，變成我們立法院必須要幫你們經濟部、幫你們台電來背書，這不是一個很好的說法和作法。","所以我們從務實面來講的話，本席在這邊要建議部長，我們必須在台電的營運上面來看，它到2023年虧損將近3,826億元，到現在將近4,400億元，我們給台電增資2,500億元，再補助500億元，在113年、114年各補助1,000億元，經費高達5,000億元，所以我們一定要怎樣去開源節流，怎樣去找財源，就是這麼簡單。","所以本席特別去了解一下，天然氣本來價格高漲，現在已經回落了，在回落當下，經濟部也是可以從中協調一下，是不是請中油可以把價格調降給台電？因為本席看到2021年天然氣每立方公尺是8塊錢，到了2023年要17塊錢，漲了1倍，這部分可不可以調降？部長要不要去跟中油談一下？"],["郭部長智輝：現在中油其實也是虧損的。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為價錢可能是合約式的，但是現在國際天然氣價格已經回落了，價錢都有降下來了，現在價錢是多少錢呢？"],["郭部長智輝：現在價格是14.5元。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以是不是可以調降一下，讓台電原物料成本可以調降下來？你也要去找其他財源，讓它的損失可以再降低，部長有什麼開源節流的方式？"],["郭部長智輝：油和天然氣我們會從建置成本上面努力來降價，這也是委員剛才所指導的，讓台電的成本可以下降，這是非常重要的因素，我們朝這方面來努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：漲價你會調漲嘛！現在已經回落了，你就要降下來，請部長去多多溝通，幫台電多爭取一些，其他方面也要重視的是，因為我們現在主要電力都是以火力發電為主載的電力，我們看到2025年再生能源要達到20%，但是到今年為止，大概12%而已；到2050年要達到60%，如果達不到，我看2030年我們要達到30%也可能達不到，達不到的話，我們可能繼續用煤炭、天然氣，這些都是國外進來的材料，就會受到國際物價趨勢的影響，所以我們對於基載能源是不是要重新做個檢討？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會參考委員的指教深刻檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們特別提到這些就是能源政策、能源配比的問題，剛剛看你的報告裡面特別講到核電、非核不是神主牌，既然不是的話，我們就必須要討論，不要有設定，不要有意識形態，每一個可能穩定我們供電的，都是我們的選項，都要進行討論，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是，核能這個命題剛才也報告很多，基本上還是在核廢料可以處理、安全無虞、所有的國人大家都同意，在這些前提之下，我們不排除任何新的科技。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以可以討論？"],["郭部長智輝：可以討論，這三個前提之下可以討論。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席之所以這樣問的意思就是說，雖然我們民生凍漲了，現在漲產業，但產業的話，你們可能分一般性和必需性產業去調整電價，但是我們看到半導體產業的用電量占了16.5%，在我們所有產業占比是最高的，或許我們可以研議，讓使用耗電量最高的部分可以負責更高的電價。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們目前的計價方式確實是這樣，用電最大的廠商，它們有一級的，我們是分級的，您剛剛所指教的大的用電商，它付的電費其實是比較高的。"],["呂委員玉玲：半導體有比較高嗎？有到14%、15%嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["王總經理耀庭：這一波電價沒有再做區別，但是上一次4月的調價是有。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以應該可以繼續研議，可以繼續這樣做，它既然是高耗電量，我們就請它多負擔一點，才不會對民生有更大的衝擊。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["郭部長智輝：其他的廠商，我們是根據深度節能來幫助這些比較中小的公司，但是它用電、耗電比較多的，我們透過深度節能的方法，大概可以看出績效，因為每個公司產業不一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是用電大戶。"],["郭部長智輝：我們看到大概可以幫它省7%的電費。"],["呂委員玉玲：可不可以朝這方面多找一些財源，台電才會轉虧為盈，這是非常重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們希望的是，第一個，部長去溝通天然氣是不是可以降價。第二個，用電大戶用電量高的話，可以調高它們的電價。再者，我們希望能夠讓所有綠電穩定，這個部分想辦法趕快達標，因為我們剛才看你們所有數字裡面，部長喜歡說科學數字，我們擔心的是不能達標。","接下來本席要講離岸風電，早上大家有提到，3-1、3-2目前還是國產，本席要提醒的，也是要跟部長講的，你3-1、3-2國產是因為我們很多產業鏈都已經簽了商業合約和產能合約，簽下去之後，如果你為了併聯發電來鬆綁國產，未來它們整個簽約下去，它們會一併使用國產的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想會。"],["呂委員玉玲：繼續使用國產的？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有使用國產的話，你們也會去處罰，是不是？經濟部會去處罰他們嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，政府所簽訂的合約內容是不能改變的。"],["呂委員玉玲：例如沃旭簽訂的產業鏈很多啊！也有基礎的、海底的，還有海底電纜各方面的，這些都簽約下去了，但是因為你開放國產之後，國產的會跟國外競爭，因為我們剛剛成熟，所有的國產產業鏈全部投資下去了，如果你一鬆綁，都從國外進來的話，整個整軍完成的國產風電都會潰散掉。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在的目的就是幫助國產化的廠商加深競爭力，讓它在3-3的時候，對國際廠牌具有競爭的條件，這樣它將來在國際風場才有競爭力。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席提醒你的是，當然它沒有競爭力，它們是草創來成軍，政府當然要輔導它，但是它投下去的成本一開始這麼龐大，不能一開始就把它丟到國際上去跟人家競爭，這樣它的競爭力沒辦法負荷。"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經承諾的事情，基於信賴保護，我們不會去毀掉這個合約。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以它們有合約的，就繼續保障它們，繼續用國產的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：畢竟我們很多發電的資源，不管天然氣或煤炭，都國外進來的，現在我們遵照蔡英文總統的政策去投入資金，現在它們已經投入了，也整軍完成了，我們要繼續輔導它，畢竟這是國產的，我們要鞏固自己的發電能量，這才是永續的，好不好！"],["郭部長智輝：是的，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：請部長要特別注重這一點，因為國產的還是需要靠經濟部來扶植，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員，謝謝部長。","我們接下來請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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年六級以上的地震可能平均有兩到三次這些其實都是家長老師很關注的嘛所以我在這邊具體給部長一個建議是不是呢這個您可以請工程會天天他們都在辦理大小標案的檢討知道怎麼樣正確的去運用還有執行你可不可以會同工程會來幫這些學校進度落後做一個總體檢好不好"},{"start":203.524,"end":203.704,"text":"教育部部長陳菁徽"},{"start":228.764,"end":255.83,"text":"您認同嗎兩個月內我們給教育委員會一份報告是不是可以教育部也可以輔導請工程會來輔導這些各級學校因為他們現在興建這些校舍的進度很落後我想讓教育部自己回應好嗎主席就不介入跟委員報告真的地方政府我覺得他就可以來完成這一個使命委員所關心的怎麼樣讓他在安全的前提然後儘速完成我想我們會來跟地方政府來這一個"},{"start":256.97,"end":279.406,"text":"我會在年底前繼續追蹤你們的執行率如果執行率很差的話也會請你們提出一個檢討方案畢竟這是教育部撥出來的經費嘛最後一個這個我們有一個蔡政府做的建設預算產業人才培育基地計畫您知道經費是多少那現在預定執行幾座那現在已經做了幾座嗎"},{"start":281.294,"end":285.478,"text":"現在是不是還有學校說還沒有拿到他的補助經費因為有聽到學校在反映這個基地還沒有撥下來補助經費"},{"start":302.153,"end":302.333,"text":"陳菁徽委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:04:07 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鐵塔的衙門流水的關就是說許民村撐了6年離職了那都是撥補嘛提出唯一的改革方向就是撥補那你現在也說撥補那到底你們那最少你們要去精算說明年撥補多少後年撥補多少"},{"start":266.794,"end":284.406,"text":"對財政的對整個中央政府預算的衝擊多少我相信一個保險保險人口超過1000萬在台灣占比那麼高的情況下你們要撥補可能藍綠白沒有委員敢說不"},{"start":291.018,"end":316.156,"text":"可是問題是你們最少也必須要去算出來說到底到了哪一年變成我們搶救的不是勞保年金是中央政府總預算懂我的意思嗎其實你想想看我們才撥補一千兩百一千三百億我們現在的政府總預算是三兆一千億就是我們的政府的這個會逐年提高的"},{"start":320.134,"end":347.99,"text":"我當然知道現在一千多億可是搞不好三年以後要變成三千億還不至於啦還不至於我們這個我們都有我們有去去精算過這些數字啦對所以以目前政府的財政來講還是相對樂觀的我們是絕對有能力撥補的所以就是就是除了撥補以外並沒有其他的想法"},{"start":349.558,"end":366.704,"text":"我們希望另外一個如果勞基法54條這一個所謂的我們合意延退其實延退也是一個符合現在中高齡就業的趨勢這是一個在現在也許勉強"},{"start":368.084,"end":392.849,"text":"是社會可以接受的一個做法可是呢我們也是希望能夠先從這個雙方合意柔性的延退方式來下手這樣子總算是還講了一個延退不過延退呢對於整個老保基金的危機其實是杯水車薪就是說影響沒有很大還有沒有其他的"},{"start":393.729,"end":398.345,"text":"今天就是你把你想得到的都講一講"},{"start":400.666,"end":417.854,"text":"我能講的就是這樣了因為說真的當然你想想看我們還有包括政府的財政政府的經濟發展的好也是一個很重要的因素啦所以你看我們撥補1300億下去我們歷年我們累積撥補了3870億嘛那我們是下去再繼續進行投資的當然我們的經濟發展的好"},{"start":427.71,"end":454.276,"text":"對,我們經濟發展得好每年收益率現在是14%、15%所以我們像去年我們去年到今年8月我們賺了1300億等於是我們撥補了兩次如果是一種我們都撥補每年1300億來算今年一到八月就有1300億基金的收益本來就是基金的來源了基金的投資收益本來就是基金來源我們的勞保的基金是一個"},{"start":455.596,"end":479.113,"text":"這是一個整體我們要整體來看待啦就是說你不要只從收入多少支出多少這樣去看我們有多元的收入欸我們有投資的收益不是現在就是現在就是賣一些不夠所以才要撥撥補嘛部長你懂我的意思嗎你現在不用再去再去講其他的基金"},{"start":480.413,"end":480.713,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":501.877,"end":502.998,"text":"我這一句話我倒不認同"},{"start":532.232,"end":547.711,"text":"我覺得怎麼讓怎麼讓讓勞保健全化然後讓勞工安心才是一個好的政府你說經濟的發展假如沒有辦法直接"},{"start":551.243,"end":576.849,"text":"直接導致勞保可以健全的改革發展然後讓退休的勞工我剛剛講過他的投保人數幾乎佔了台灣的半數一個影響面這麼大的東西那今天看起來就是就是部長目前的想法也就只有波普啦波普我剛剛講過我已經有幫你們"},{"start":580.43,"end":594.465,"text":"幫你們提案齁要把基金的來源包括政府的撥補那我們也希望執政黨可以支持"},{"start":595.646,"end":613.665,"text":"政府負擔最終支付責任這樣子的法律修正因為勞工辛苦了一輩子到最後現在領的錢已經夠少了我今天實驗的關係還沒有跟你討論到目前領的再搭配通貨膨脹"},{"start":618.971,"end":623.892,"text":"不過我還是要提醒部長就是假如說勞動部就是對於勞保年改的政策方向就是"},{"start":641.926,"end":645.891,"text":"一直以來都是政府撥補,那我覺得這個問題永遠沒有辦法解決了。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:56:59 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政策 政治我同意委員你的想法我們有辦法掌握嗎這一點才是 所以部長你今天講出來的這些狀況會不會真的太噁心會怎麼樣會不會太噁心會不會讓我們這兩天"},{"start":314.022,"end":317.824,"text":"部長清楚菲律賓的電價跟台灣的電價比較嗎?"},{"start":344.445,"end":344.605,"text":"實在話講我覺得還是"},{"start":359.844,"end":387.961,"text":"拉回來能源是務實的選項能源不是天馬行空的幻想能源是每天大家都要用的能源也是實實在在的數字沒有美化數字沒有虛冠數字沒有作假數字有就有沒有就沒有會去想不是從我們台灣內部來發電而是想是說從外部然後怎麼樣來跟人家每多一分其實就是把我講實在話講部長"},{"start":389.922,"end":406.823,"text":"如果說這個話是相對來說這個其他我們在野黨民意代表講出來說不定他徹意已經泡翻了就是說你根本就是把台灣的經濟命脈把台灣的能源掌握在別人手裡所以你的天馬行空你的"},{"start":408.114,"end":408.394,"text":"這個我以後會謹言慎行"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:00:05 - 13:07:16","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155606","gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時）主席謝謝，請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：郭部長，因為你的一席菲律賓送電說，造成全國譁然以及大家餘波蕩漾，雖然上午你已經有道歉，但是本席還是想要針對能源議題跟你就教。首先，能源算是重要的戰略物資，電力是國力，你認同嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：認同。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果未來要針對相關的電不是在臺灣本地生產、不在臺灣本地發電，而是要由外部運輸的話，你覺得先決條件是不是就會變成發電命脈掌握在別人土地上？到時候的國際情勢、任何相關國際環境會不會更加變化？這不是商業模式說我簽一紙公文、簽一紙合約就可以確保供電無虞。你提出這樣一個構想、想法，有沒有找國安單位討論看看，或者請教國安單位的意見？"],["郭部長智輝：還沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這完全就像你講的快人快語、思考不周，忘了自己是部長？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：未來本席更擔心，外界已經有人在講是不是有些廠商已經先偷跑，知道方向、知道部長的屬意，所以先偷跑？"],["郭部長智輝：這不可能。"],["洪委員孟楷：不可能？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼？因為這完全是你天馬行空的想法，沒有跟任何人討論過？"],["郭部長智輝：在全球，現在綠電都是大家關心的命題，我們可以看到新加坡從澳洲買太陽能綠電，從澳洲到新加坡大概4,300公里，現在還是持續在討論，但這是一個事實。第二，英國從非洲透過4,000公里買綠電，也就是說，有綠電生產的國家有這個條件，它綠電發電成本就非常低，所以透過海纜的方式，這個是我們看到的一個新的事實。我在講這個事情的時候，其實是因為民主同盟也非常關心這樣的命題，因為將來2050年要淨零減碳，大家為了快點讓綠能上來，我想委員非常清楚，綠能只要經濟規模到達了，成本其實非常低的。我就在想如何讓臺灣這些廠商更有世界的競爭力，你在臺灣做綠能的、太陽能發電或風力發電，臺灣就這麼小的一個島，所以能夠做的其實非常有限，臺灣就是要多元的綠能，我在講菲律賓這個命題其實是菲律賓的總統、日本的首相跟美國的總統在今年4月簽訂呂宋經濟走廊的合約。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我先拉回來，你剛講到廠商的部分，就讓大家不禁會想到是不是有哪些特定廠商已經先跑去菲律賓插旗了，這不是跟你剛剛講的又有點矛盾？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席特別看你昨天講的話，你講的是不一定由我們公部門去設電廠，而是廠商去，而我們用購買電的方式，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：你又講這是你天馬行空的想法，連跟最基本的國安單位也沒有討論過，沒有錯，因為我剛在外交及國防委員會請教國安局局長，我說國安局到底有沒有做過評估，如果我們的電、我們的戰略物資居然要從外進口，毋怪乎大家會質疑啊！毋怪乎大家會覺得今天菲律賓之前的領導人相對比較親中，現在的領導人可能親美，但會不會換了領導人之後就換不同的政治角度、政策，我們有辦法掌握嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我同意你的想法，所以我們在風險的評估……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以部長今天講出來的這些狀況會不會真的太兒戲？這兩天報紙頭條、推播都在講部長菲律賓來電。"],["郭部長智輝：我對自己發言不夠精準，我剛才也講過了，我非常抱歉，但是我的意思是說在菲律賓可以得到比較低成本的……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長清楚菲律賓的電價和臺灣的電價比較嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，現有菲律賓的電價是比較高的，但是我們在討論回來怎樣讓綠電成本降低，它是需要經濟規模的。"],["洪委員孟楷：講實在話，我覺得還是拉回來能源是務實的選項，能源不是天馬行空的幻想，能源是每天大家都要用的，能源也是實實在在的數字，沒有美化數字、沒有虛灌數字、沒有作假數字，有就有，沒有就沒有。會去想不是從臺灣內部發電，而是想從外部發電，每多一分其實就是把……講實在話，如果這個話是在野黨的民意代表講出來，說不定側翼已經砲翻了，說你根本把臺灣的經濟命脈、臺灣的能源掌握在別人手裡。所以，你的天馬行空、你的幻想不要變成我們……你今天不是部長的話，你要講什麼，我沒有意見，因為我跟你沒有私人恩怨嘛！但你今天站在部長的位子，我今天質詢的是經濟部長，既然你身為經濟部長，講的每一句、每一話、每一行、每一言，政策是長治久安。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我以後會謹言慎行。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：謝謝洪孟楷委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請呂玉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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高雄市最近都在發一個這個校園服勤的這個勾選問卷讓我們的學生來勾選是不是有這件事情確實前一日我們學特司最近發的公文給地方政府要求他們來發給學生來勾選是嗎"},{"start":29.608,"end":31.469,"text":"主要是全民防衛動員準備還有哪些?"},{"start":56.598,"end":83.605,"text":"法律未接就這兩個可是我看到你們的範本上面還有寫了教育部113年度的部分有全民國防教育法、權凍法還有民防法有嗎?也涉及到民防法也有民防法嘛對不對那你們一直講說呢這個部分我先問一個問題你們給學生跟學生家長去做這個勾選的時候有把分類計畫表的全部給學生跟學生家長嗎還是你只有給他問卷的部分"},{"start":84.77,"end":92.719,"text":"同意書而已只要同意書那你沒有給人家全部的計畫表你只給副表那他怎麼知道依據哪一個法律呢"},{"start":95.497,"end":114.374,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,確實這一個問卷的一個調查我們確實在行政上是有所疏漏有所疏漏,好,我告訴你疏漏在哪裡好不好來,你們在那個問卷調查簿上寫說都跟戰爭沒有關係,跟戰時沒有關係但我請教一下,來,民法法裡面的第二條之二之四裡面寫什麼"},{"start":121.781,"end":146.96,"text":"民防法來考一下你你說民防法有關嗎民防法裡面的第二支四條寫什麼應該是學校規模超過100人以上的學校必須要不是民防法的二支四條裡面寫到的是呢民防工作範圍二支四條裡面是支援軍事勤務你剛剛說了我們這個青年扶勤動員法的"},{"start":148,"end":167.369,"text":"這個支援表裡面的法源依據之一是民防法民防法裡面就有寫到戰爭時期是關於支援軍事群務的民防法的五之一裡面寫到高中以上要編組我再問你一個問題民防法的全動法的第二條第二點寫什麼"},{"start":173.475,"end":176.101,"text":"動輪實施階段因為我時間不夠動輪實施階段第三條動輪實施階段裡面寫什麼什麼叫動輪實施階段"},{"start":183.088,"end":193.697,"text":"說是緊急的,你就講一半我唸給你聽,你看時間真的不夠叫做暴輪實施階段統合利用全民利用支援軍事錯綻及緊急緩慢然後是由國防部負責執行然後呢所以學生要進行編組這叫什麼平時救災救難然後再不是學校的部分"},{"start":206.789,"end":207.149,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":228.578,"end":240.002,"text":"你以為這個法條給大家簽了同意所以我今天問你在全黨法第幾條你不知道然後跟所有說這個事情跟這個戰爭無關我問你全部你又講不出來第幾條我剩8秒鐘請你回答你說不是回答不出來第幾條應該是第我一定要是第9條我時間不夠了昭偉你看怎麼辦"},{"start":253.334,"end":274.021,"text":"可以讓我講完這一段嗎?不然永遠沒有人知道是第幾條好不好?教委你讓我講完這一段第15條為確保動員實施階段所需之人力對學校進行青年動員扶持而剛剛所謂的動員實施階段就是在支援軍事作戰以上你們就只給了學校這個動員的"},{"start":280.367,"end":280.447,"text":"徐巧芯"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:59:10 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12:58:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案。）","id":"155604","gazette":{"lineno":1097,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（12時50分）謝謝召委。我們先暫停一下，因為今天召委請我們要精準，給我們的詢答時間只有4分鐘，所以待會我請部長回應的時候，你不要含糊，請你精準的回答我，因為今天召委非常的嚴格，要我們精準的在時間內質詢完畢，好嗎？","現在開始我的質詢，請鄭部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["高金委員素梅：走路快一點，因為又要占到我的時間，謝謝。"],["主席：我當主席的時候都是通融20秒鐘才會站起來。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：我當召委的時候，我都是讓大家盡情的發言，謝謝。","針對體育署學校體育組辦理學校運動場地和設備器材，我們看一下預算書第27頁，整備學校運動場地、設備器材有16.26億；我們再看預算書的第29頁，改善原住民族地區學校運動場地的設施和充實體育相關設備只有1.26億，你知道嗎？我們來看一下112年度全臺高級中等以下的學校校數，扣掉原住民族重點學校，也不含幼兒園，總共有3,450間。而原住民族重點學校，一樣不含所謂的幼兒園，有420間，占整體的12%。原住民族重點學校占12%，你卻只給我7.7%的預算，也就是1.26億，我們缺了6,900萬元，請問部長，你要補回來嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上，這個1.26億是確定一定有的，但是如果有需求，我們會支持。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，你不要告訴我這些啦！原住民的部分你就是給我1.26億，然後其他的部分是16.26億。我現在問你的是，好，原住民的部分也可以去爭取16.26億的部分嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，委員所提的那個需求，確實有需要時，我們一定會支持。"],["高金委員素梅：精準一點，可不可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：一定會支持。"],["高金委員素梅：原住民的部分你已經編列了1.26億，如果原住民多了1.26億，那它也可以從16.26億裡面去拿是嗎？精準，不要浪費時間，謝謝！可以？不可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，基於教學上的需要，我們會支持。"],["高金委員素梅：報告主席，你看，我只問他可不可以？他就講了那麼多，你就說我會支持就好了嘛！行嗎？不要浪費我的時間，扣一下我的時間，我只有4分鐘，停一下，謝謝！可不可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。再來問你一下，你知道學校體育組辦理學校運動場和運動器材的時候，你們會委託專家學者去看，你知道原住民地區學校在申請興建或整建風雨球場的時候，因為現在行政院有一個光電球場形式的建置，所以體育署也要求我們原鄉部落必須要這樣，可是有一些原鄉部落實在是不適合放光電，結果你就說不行，我們要排在後面，於是乎真正需要用到這些整建的就永遠都排不到，請問一下要怎麼解決？"],["鄭部長英耀：如果地方上確實認為不可行，我們還是會接受它不同的……"],["高金委員素梅：所以會往前排，不會按照體育署現在告訴我們的，一定要先以光電，然後不用光電的就排在最後，會以它實際的需求，是吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：要先評估光電需求，我們希望能夠兼顧這個政策，但是如果……"],["高金委員素梅：你很愛浪費我的時間，部長，我都已經把問題問完了，你就回答。時間請暫停，因為我只有4分鐘的時間。我把問題問完了，你就回答，如果真的不適合用光電，那麼我會按照學校的需求往前排，只要學校有需求就好。"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["高金委員素梅：部長，你是專業的人，請你回答精準一點好不好？不要浪費我的時間，謝謝。","對於族語老師的權益，6月6日我在這邊質詢過你，請問一下，族語老師的資格門檻現在到底有沒有從高級族語認證修改為中高級族語認證，有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，基本上，這個原民……"],["高金委員素梅：不要告訴我啦！依研議如何？有沒有共識？什麼時候完成辦法的修訂？你不要又推給原民會教文處，教文處和國教署有一個平臺，部長，你知道嗎？這個平臺必須要討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，有關老師的培訓和任用，我們內部確實是朝降低這個門檻，就是從高級……"],["高金委員素梅：什麼時候可以降低？我今年6月6日在這裡問你了，什麼時候研議？部長，你不能回答，你就請旁邊休息，請署長，什麼時候研議？有沒有共識？什麼時候可以完成辦法的修訂？"],["彭署長富源：剛剛部長已經說明了，是有共識，現在是族群的委員那邊，大家還要再會商一下，我們這邊跟原民會的行政單位已經有共識了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝！部長，請你以後簡單的回答，你看召委都站起來了，我還有2個重要的問題，沒辦法，我還是一定要問。","師資培育政策的問題，請問一下，中央主管機關要會同中央目的事業主管機關另訂，請問一下，原住民族族語師資的政策是什麼？現在的專職族語老師、教支人員、鐘點費的族語老師，這些師資有沒有明確的聘用辦法？"],["主席：教育部是不是之後給高金委員書面答復或者是跟高金委員的辦公室說明好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：抱歉！召委，因為他浪費我太多時間，你再給我1分鐘。請問一下，有沒有……"],["主席：因為後面還有很多委員在等。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，在場的委員想法跟我一樣啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：因為他一直浪費高金委員的時間。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！你們一直都沒有暫停啊！你們最起碼浪費了我1分鐘好嗎？召委。"],["主席：我在教文已經第5年，我沒有看過有主席暫停的。"],["高金委員素梅：師資培育中心現在已經專門培育……"],["主席：請尊重主席好嗎？"],["羅委員智強：就再給他1分鐘的時間……"],["主席：我已經給他超過1分22秒。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，他浪費了我很多時間，對不起！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員抱歉！"],["高金委員素梅：師培中心專門培育原住民族族語老師的師資該往何處？你們什麼時候研議？"],["主席：請教育部之後書面回應好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有講完，他要怎麼書面回應？"],["主席：你們可以當面再好好溝通。"],["高金委員素梅：我現在問他、現在問他。"],["主席：請問高金委員，你是召委？還是我是召委？"],["高金委員素梅：我現在問他，他可以不用回答，請他2週內回給我好不好？"],["主席：高金委員，你是召委？還是我是召委？"],["高金委員素梅：你是召委，我尊重，但是我沒有問他問題，他要怎麼用書面回答我？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，跟委員報告，我們會遵照委員的期待在2個禮拜內把所有原住民族老師……"],["主席：你可以事後再跟他約時間，教育部常常來，你下次可以再來繼續質詢。"],["高金委員素梅：師資中心專門培育的原住民族族語師資要怎麼認定？該往何處？請你在2個禮拜內給我。"],["主席：高金委員……我們是不是可以把他麥克風的聲音切斷好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：報告召委，請他2個禮拜內給我。"],["主席：超過2分鐘了……"],["高金委員素梅：還有國土計畫實行後，我們有非常多大專院校的建築系，我們是不是能夠再加上原住民學生的名額，也是2個禮拜之內給我，部長你有聽到嗎？"],["主席：等一下沈委員、每個人都像你這樣子，我們今天5點鐘都質詢不完。我們請議事人員，這個麥克風的聲音是不是可以切斷？議事人員，麥克風的聲音是不是可以切斷？"],["鄭部長英耀：有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：你可以不用回應了。我想，你也當過召委，請尊重好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：不用回應要給我書面，他總要知道我問什麼啊！"],["主席：歡迎你回來教育及文化委員會好嘛！回來當我們的委員，質詢的時間就會比較長。"],["高金委員素梅：我會經常回來，謝謝！我會經常回來。"],["主席：我是說回來當教文委員。"],["高金委員素梅：你講的話比我講的話還要多。"],["主席：因為你不尊重召委。"],["高金委員素梅：我尊重你，我非常尊重你，我以前也很尊重你，我當召委的時候也很尊重你。"],["主席：好，我們對尊重的定義不一樣，我從來沒有逾時像這樣好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：吳思瑤委員一直講，講超過7分鐘，我也讓他講啊！"],["主席：現在召委不是吳思瑤委員，是我好嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：所以我也希望比照辦理。"],["主席：好，我們不要浪費時間了。","下一位請徐巧芯委員質詢。"],["高金委員素梅：部長有聽到我後來說的那2個問題嗎？所有的問題請2個禮拜之內給我書面報告，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:11:36","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:58:17+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155603","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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討並參酌《地質法》第83條之七第二項規定恰商園民區檢討補助事宜我覺得我看到還要去恰商"},{"start":322.975,"end":337.9,"text":"那部長我覺得應該這樣的結論你也看不下去因為根本沒有辦法解決問題嘛那好了那我也只好土法煉鋼啦因為我找不到他們的意見我就只好一個一個打電話問每一個區公所與會的人員你們來的時候你們的意見表達是說了什麼"},{"start":345.222,"end":359.674,"text":"好,那我要看的,你們剛剛提到你們的結論要他們看第83條之7的第二項規定可是重點是在第83條之7的第一項為什麼?"},{"start":363.317,"end":382.791,"text":"因為重點就是83條之三所列山地原住民區之自治事項他提到前三年平均稅客收入所以我就想要請教部長前三年平均稅客收入你如果請教你怎麼算"},{"start":386.778,"end":389.019,"text":"市政府也很多錢他們自己也有水庫的回饋金他們說"},{"start":415.31,"end":429.783,"text":"他們的稅出自編是4億多但是呢他們的總稅出決算是8億多你看一下這個計算基礎差了一倍至少一倍那他們很苦的是什麼"},{"start":430.794,"end":452.69,"text":"他們要公墨啊、造橋鋪路啊還有這些學校機關的設施聚會所等等等這種大型建設都需要地方的配合款你應該也很了解但是區公所他沒有自主裁員他就要仰賴市政府同意然後合撥配合款那這有什麼樣的問題"},{"start":454.071,"end":467.299,"text":"因為往往他們很多的案件都沒有在市政府送出的案件內因為他要仰賴市府比席啊所以他們很苦啊"},{"start":468.908,"end":496.371,"text":"所以部長您了解所以我再進一步的要講就是其實像我們談到的前三年的平均這些年軍公教條新多少物資指數年增率到達多少可是它永遠被那個法條給綁死因為那個法的文字就寫在那邊前三年升格前三年的水準已經歷經多少年了"},{"start":497.071,"end":519.874,"text":"不進則退沒有變就是縮減因為那個法定的文字在那邊大家就按照那樣子即可所以我為什麼會一直希望而且我好麻煩就是大家做錯一件事好簡單要回復好難也要到地質法修也要在財化法修又要到公債法修重點這是政府弄錯的事餒"},{"start":522.316,"end":545.333,"text":"看我一個立法委員苦口婆心有何其無辜啊我們的族人何其無辜啊委員會這個事情確實非常關切但是我們還是要回到源頭就是《地質法》裡面的規定就是您剛剛也舉出來的那事實上不是只是前三年的平均稅客收入已經只是一個參酌另外還有其他因素要來做涉算補助至少要讓園民區"},{"start":547.114,"end":549.075,"text":"實施自治事項能夠有足夠的裁員"},{"start":577.214,"end":596.575,"text":"不論是部長或者是國庫署長其實你們都很認真也常常的關心我所關心的議題我很感激我只是覺得很苦啊因為以我一己之力要完成這個政府當年的錯誤我覺得我好累因為我覺得不是就是各部會應該要主動的來去補正嗎"},{"start":599.358,"end":620.141,"text":"那我希望因為畢竟財政部是統籌我們全國財政的主管機關我還是希望說給我一個積極的解方修法的意見那是不是這樣部長我希望齁就是再把各區的意見把它整理一下然後呢逐案的說明"},{"start":620.842,"end":649.879,"text":"解決的方案就是很具體的告訴大家說怎麼解決那要修法建議的修法方向還有修法的期程這樣可以嗎委員的意思就是我們先把各個區的意見彙整起來然後看有什麼方式可以做主一的讓大家知道我們可以怎麼做當然您要知道修法其實它的工程是比較大的您在那個地質法那邊也有提案可是當年齁一個法就打破啦對所以修法其實基本上很審慎嘛就是一個條文下去其實影響到後面是"},{"start":651.339,"end":673.364,"text":"這是補正以前的錯誤我覺得這個沒有什麼需要審慎那部長這樣子就大概希望在兩週內把這樣的一個積極的還有期程、修法期程可以提供嗎?期程?因為第四法不是我們的主管法規沒有,就是你的專業意見我們就把意見開始提供我們盡量有提供給委員因為畢竟你們的"},{"start":676.505,"end":679.407,"text":"李華委員黃建豪、黃建豪、黃建豪委員不在廖先祥、廖先祥、廖先祥委員不在"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:46:41 - 12:58:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155603","gazette":{"lineno":1195,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時46分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。我們有看到行政院已經是第三次提案延長當沖降稅，我們也希望這樣的延長，透過單日當沖均量提高帶動台股單日成交量，實施以來我也很同意，因為我們確實看到是有幫助的，所以我個人也有提案把當沖降稅的措施延長3年。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是我這個地方就是想要提醒一下，因為再延長、一直延長，畢竟它就是一個特殊的手段，我們當然都知道還是要回歸到正常的市場運作，所以我們也有看到報導有指出一些現象，雖然確實有成長，但是到底成長了誰？我們看到這個表格裡面有提到，外資法人去年總損益194億，可是我們來看本土的時候，本土的法人只有1.6億，差很多！更何況是本土的自然人，它是負291.2億，這樣的一個分析讓我們覺得很憂心。因此我們還是想，當沖降稅不單單是要提升交易量，我們更希望的是提升股民及國庫的經濟效益，部長，是這樣沒錯吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，對！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我在這個地方就是希望把握延長的這3年，如果真的延長3年的話，那我請教一下部長，要做什麼規劃能夠達到我們的目標？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，證券市場也好，資本市場的管理機關基本上是金管會，所以對這一次延長當沖降稅這樣一個措施要不要再繼續延長，我們在之前有跟金管會做相關密切的討論，也感謝金管會提供了相當多的資料，除了正向的，比如說，降低投資人的交易成本，擴充維持證券市場的流動性以及帶動整體資本市場的活絡之外，當然它也提到必須要有一些管控的措施、必須要有一些管控機制，讓當沖降稅能夠不要走偏了。另外我們也請它提供，以當沖跟非當沖的違約比例來看，當沖的違約比例並沒有比非當沖的違約比例高。所以這個部分，我們在這一次討論的過程當中都有相關資料的分析，當然後續委員這邊提到有關股民，還有國庫經濟效益的關鍵等等都是要去注意的，金管會也會密切觀察的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，我們關心的就是延長3年到底是好了誰？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們希望還是要把股民跟國庫的效益當作最重要的一個目標，好不好？提出一些策略。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：另外我還要關心一個部分，部長，您也很了解，我對於我們原區，也就是以前的原住民鄉升格為六都的區之後，其實好多年有一些問題沒有解決，我也覺得我好累，這個是第二個會期了，我也要再接再厲，但是我就承接上個會期，我希望你們辦的財劃法座談會，你們有聽到我的訴求，有邀請這六都來，但是我說不是邀六都來，卻沒有邀這幾個真正的原區來。後來你們又另外辦了一次，但是我看到你們的回函，我也滿傻眼的，為什麼？因為我們希望叫他們來，財政部無論如何，地制法也好、公債法也好、財劃法也好，畢竟裡面談到財政的部分，你們是統籌全國的財政，我們也希望你們要有專業意見，所以你們邀請他們來對我來講很重要，因為他們的意見，你們要聽到。但是我發現就沒有，後來你們有邀了，這一次看到你們的會議紀錄，我又更傻眼了，我在猜他們的意見在哪裡啊？我完全看不到他們的意見、他們的發言，我只看到結論寫什麼呢？建議相關直轄市政府衡酌轄內原民區自治需求，循預算程序綜合檢討，並參酌地制法第八十三條之七第二項規定，洽商原民區檢討補助事宜。我看到還要去洽商，部長，我覺得這樣的結論你應該也看不下去，因為根本沒有辦法解決問題嘛！那好了，我也只好土法煉鋼，因為我找不到他們的意見，我就只好一個一個打電話問每一個區公所與會的人員，他們來的時候，他們的意見表達是說了什麼？","剛剛提到你們的結論要他們看第八十三條之七第二項規定，可是重點是在第八十三條之七的第一項，為什麼？因為重點就是第八十三條之三所列山地原住民區之自治事項，它提到「前三年平均稅課收入」，所以我就想要請教部長，前三年平均稅課收入怎麼算？"],["莊部長翠雲：前三年的稅課收入？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對啊！怎麼算？"],["莊部長翠雲：包含它自己本身的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，有沒有包含補助款？"],["莊部長翠雲：不含補助款，但有包含統籌稅款在裡面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，部長，您看這是我一個一個打電話問他們的意見，我就舉最有錢的為例，我還不要舉最沒錢的。最有錢的桃園市，以桃園市復興區為例，市政府也有很多錢，他們自己也有水庫的回饋金，他們說他們的歲出自編是四億多，但是他們總歲出決算是八億多，你看一下這個計算基礎，差了一倍，至少一倍！他們很苦的是什麼？他們要公墓、造橋鋪路，還有學校、機關的設施、聚會所等等這種大型建設都需要地方的配合款，你應該也很了解，但是區公所沒有自主財源，它就要仰賴市政府同意，然後核撥配合款，這有什麼樣的問題？往往他們很多案件都沒有在市政府送出的案件內，因為它要仰賴市府鼻息啊！所以他們很苦啊！部長您了解？","我再進一步講，其實像我們談到前三年的平均，這些年軍公教調薪多少？物價指數年增率到達多少？可是它永遠被那個法條給綁死，因為那個法的文字就寫在那邊──「前三年」，升格前三年的水準，已經歷經多少年了？不進則退！沒有變就是縮減！因為那個法定的文字在那邊，大家就按照那樣子即可，所以我為什麼會一直希望……而且好麻煩，就是大家做錯一件事好簡單，要回復好難，也要到地制法修、也要在財劃法修、又要到公債法修，重點這是政府弄錯的事，靠我一個立法委員苦口婆心，我何其無辜啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們的族人何其無辜啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員為這個事情確實非常關切，但是我們還是要回到源頭，就是地制法裡面的規定，您剛剛也舉出來的。事實上，不是只是前三年的平均稅課收入，這只是一個參酌，另外還有其他因素要來設算補助，至少要讓原民區實施自治事項能夠有足夠的財源。我們在會議裡面也提到，中央統籌分配稅款逐年都在擴大，告訴各直轄市應該要去讓原民區能夠有足夠的錢來實施它的自治事項，這是我們這次會議的目的。剛剛委員提到各區來開會的代表們意見如何，其實我們國庫署都有記錄下來，我想這個部分是不是會後提供給委員？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：各區的意見我們記錄下來給委員參考，好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，不論是部長或者是國庫署長，其實你們都很認真，也常常關心我所關心的議題，我很感激。"],["莊部長翠雲：那是我們應該做的事情。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我只是覺得很苦啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：很苦，對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為以我一己之力要完成這個政府當年的錯誤，我覺得我好累，我覺得這不是各部會應該要主動去補正嗎？畢竟財政部是統籌我們全國財政的主管機關，我還是希望給我一個積極的解方、修法的意見。是不是這樣，部長，我希望再把各區的意見整理一下，然後逐案說明解決的方案，就是很具體的告訴大家怎麼解決，以及建議的修法方向、修法的期程，這樣可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員的意思就是我們先把各個區的意見彙整起來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：然後看有什麼方式可以做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：逐一的讓大家知道可以怎麼做。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然您要知道修法的工程是比較大的，您在地制法那邊也有提案，好像都沒有……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是當年一個法就打破啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。所以修法基本上很審慎，就是一個條文下去，其實影響到後面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個是補正以前的錯誤，我覺得這個沒有什麼需要審慎。部長，希望在兩週內積極……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們把資料提供給您。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，還有修法期程，可以提供嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：期程？因為地制法不是我們的主管法規，源頭在地制法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有，就是你的專業意見。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們就把意見儘量提供給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，畢竟你們的意見我們拿到之後，它就會是未來我們提供給各部會的意見，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們儘量研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝麗華委員。","接著我們請黃健豪、黃健豪、黃健豪委員不在。","廖先翔、廖先翔、廖先翔委員不在。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","本席在這裡做個報告，今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢，本日會議作如下決議：一、報告及說明詢答完畢。二、委員質詢如果沒有即時答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會在一週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者從其所定。","在這裡再跟大家做個報告，證券交易稅條例第二條之二、第十四條條文修正草案……證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案、證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案等5案另擇期繼續審查。","本日會議議程已經進行完畢，倘若有不在場委員，請補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。休息。","休息（13時）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員邱志偉等19\n人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138501_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:06:06","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:56:36+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155602","委員名稱":"葉元之","duration":366,"start_time":"2024-10-16T12:50:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69d294217c1921fb4c7dcb16210b9dd9171766e2bcab8f8c7f7082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.691593750000003,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284375,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.37409375,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.04909375,"end":32.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.25784375,"end":45.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.60784375,"end":34.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.67096875,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.21471875,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.446593750000005,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.34909375,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.06971875,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.993468750000005,"end":51.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.697843750000004,"end":53.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.431593750000005,"end":55.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.97471875,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.93096875,"end":80.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.28409375000001,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.99221875,"end":92.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.70409375000001,"end":132.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.39409375,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.96346875,"end":137.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.40596875,"end":145.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.45534375,"end":154.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.87596875,"end":156.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.22159375,"end":177.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.26471875000001,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.82409375,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.43534375000002,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.16096875000002,"end":198.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.24471875,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.36659375000002,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.29471875000002,"end":202.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.45909375000002,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.70346875,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.11221875,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.19534375,"end":218.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.91659375,"end":226.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.29096875000002,"end":227.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.99971875000003,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.71159375000002,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.89284375000003,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.24721875,"end":260.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.48096875000002,"end":253.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.33221875000004,"end":260.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.68221875,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.25534375,"end":273.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.37221875,"end":276.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.01346875,"end":274.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.15659375,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.50659375000004,"end":278.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.41721875,"end":283.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.98659375,"end":289.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.47159375,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.97284375000004,"end":292.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.05721875,"end":291.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.39034375,"end":297.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.87909375000004,"end":298.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.71846875,"end":303.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.30034375,"end":311.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.91096875,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.17221875,"end":320.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.39971875000003,"end":313.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.88034375,"end":316.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.40284375000005,"en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12:56:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155602","gazette":{"lineno":1283,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時50分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我想問一下，我們之前把勞基法第五十四條有關於65歲強制退休的天花板打開了，就是65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調，看看要不要退休，當初的用意是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：這是立法院委員的提案，當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法，所以我們也非常支持，我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休。"],["葉委員元之：一方面是65歲以上的勞工，如果還可以繼續工作也可以讓他繼續工作，也增加了社會的勞動人口，解決一些勞動的問題。我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情，我跟部長講一個狀況，新北市有一個學校的工友65歲了，他希望跟教育局或學校來協商可以讓他不要65歲退休，結果教育局不敢決定。其實教育局算是資方嘛，以勞資來講的話，他不敢決定，他就發文問勞動部，勞動部說跟勞動部沒關係，叫教育局去問人事行政總處，人事行政總處說不行，因為我們要實施工友的精簡制度，所以不可以。我是不太懂工友的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩者有什麼相關，但因為學校非常需要工友，之前是人事行政總處實施工友精簡計畫，如果是遇缺不補，我們都了解，可是現在是工友要延長退休的時間，這是兩回事；再者，因為人事行政總處首度實施工友精簡，導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況，第一個狀況是工友的工作還是要有人做，平常要維修設備、修剪花草、遞送公文，最後這些工作誰來做？老師來做！因為精簡工友就影響到老師教學。第二件事情，因為還是要有人做，所以學校就拿預算外包給一般的人來做工友要做的工作，那不是一樣的意思？這樣有節省公帑嗎？並沒有節省公帑，而且人家工友65歲想要延長退休卻不可以。基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬，新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事行政總處，再請他們函釋，把學校需求告訴他們，我也希望勞動部可以本於剛剛我們所講的，在法案修法之後，對於立意良善的部分也可以跟人事總處講一下，為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員，確實您講的沒有錯，我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動落實勞基法第五十四條修正案的努力，我知道人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論，就是關於這部分也要來放寬。"],["葉委員元之：有嗎？確定了？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候會告訴大家？"],["何部長佩珊：可是這不是我的職權啦，所以我了解……"],["葉委員元之：是，因為今天是你來嘛！你知道了就回答一下。"],["何部長佩珊：我們對人事總處也表達過，希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有……"],["葉委員元之：對，部長講的就是這個立意良善，但是法案並沒有說一定可以延長，必須要先勞資協調。"],["何部長佩珊：對、對。"],["葉委員元之：那勞資協調，你要看資方的態度，當然我們鼓勵資方只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業，我們也鼓勵嘛，我們要鼓勵資方做這個事，結果身為公部門的人事行政總處說：不好意思，不可以！工友給我強制退休！那民間企業看到會怎樣？反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊，那作為民間企業不讓員工繼續就業還好吧，剛好而已嘛！今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情，你有做到對高齡就業人口友善環境嗎？沒有嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們有努力跟人總溝通。"],["葉委員元之：有跟他們溝通，有機會促成是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候？還是有機會促成，但是可能是牛年馬月，大概三年後，會這樣嗎？大概什麼時候？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來積極了解一下。"],["葉委員元之：部長，其實今天來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛，您去跟人總說可不可以儘快？"],["何部長佩珊：我們儘量積極來促成。"],["葉委員元之：大概多久？積極是多久？是一個月促成、半年促成還是一年促成？"],["何部長佩珊：這要等院核定。"],["葉委員元之：正在等院核定是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：不、不、不，我的意思是我知道人總跟行政院正在討論中。"],["葉委員元之：所以是行政院在卡？"],["何部長佩珊：不、不，這不是卡，因為它必須要有一個通盤計畫。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我知道，現在是人總直接回新北市說不行嘛，部長你是說你有跟人總溝通，希望政府機關做出示範嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：我們希望能夠促成公部門啦，其實也不是只有教育局這種例子，比如公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員，他們有延退的想法，覺得他們還能貢獻，事實上機關也需要，因為有人力斷層，所以這樣的話，我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家能夠來合意、來協商，也希望人總來促成。"],["葉委員元之：大家的目標都是第一個希望解決勞動力的問題，第二個希望高齡就業人口依他們的意願讓他們可以延長退休時間，我也希望政府可以做起帶頭的作用。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：第二個就是不要有年齡歧視，因為我們各項調查都顯示臺灣年齡歧視很嚴重，政府不要有年齡歧視的問題，這樣會健全我們的勞動市場。"],["何部長佩珊：對，就是要改變這個文化。謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:11:20","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:50:45+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155601","委員名稱":"吳春城","duration":680,"start_time":"2024-10-16T12:39:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69b545df3ad966c062ba4b17f6040cd0391766e2bcab8f8c7ff1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.07284375,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.1234687500000002,"end":3.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.375343750000003,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.137843750000002,"end":35.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.31221875,"end":38.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.45096875,"end":40.665968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.22284375,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.59346875,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.304718750000006,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.42596875000001,"end":67.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.21034375,"end":70.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.95659375000001,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.08221875000001,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.72721875,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.05596875,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.67971875,"end":98.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":100.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.60596875,"end":103.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.86284375000001,"end":104.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.68534375,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.74721875,"end":115.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.69221875000001,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.07471875,"end":138.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.38471875000002,"end":145.61159375},{"speaker":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個數據就發現我們學生越來越少但我們的教育預算越來越多"},{"start":39.502,"end":49.488,"text":"哇這個是一件很恐怖的事情那我們來看一下那個今年教育預算這110年40年度到了3623億比去年又多了233億"},{"start":57.586,"end":68.835,"text":"這些預算你看主年一直在增加主年在增加那我們看一下我比較這個數據你看從這20年來93年當時我們的教育預算是1367億我們當時的學生總數是505萬平均每人的這個教育經費是27000"},{"start":87.711,"end":112.038,"text":"到了113年我們的教育算是3390億我們的學生總數是404萬少了100萬平均每人的教育算是8萬3這是一件非常驚悚的事如果就以企業管理企業教育來講發生這種事情"},{"start":116.371,"end":138.043,"text":"少了100萬人多了2000億的預算部長可不可以解釋一下這是怎麼回事我想其實跟委員報告我想這個事實上就是說在傳遞一個政府對新世代人才培育他的一個決心而且他願意有更多的一個挹注"},{"start":139.454,"end":139.655,"text":"是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":148.819,"end":178.019,"text":"但是呢結果呢這是你的理想結果呢我們這你看10年你特別是民進黨從103年103年到現在我們平均的經費超過百分之100從4萬到8萬3平均每一個人我們的素質我們的教育的國際排名我們的所有的這些問題有更改善嗎"},{"start":179.04,"end":201.599,"text":"跟委員報告確實在過去的PISA在這個10年前我們的PISA大概在各個不管閱讀或者科學或者數學特別在閱讀大概都是20名左右以我們現在最近的一個調查PISA最新的一個結果我們在數學物理跟科"},{"start":202.66,"end":205.804,"text":"跟委員報告這披薩是15歲也就針對國中三年級跟高中一年級16歲的這些小孩所做的一個調查"},{"start":220.06,"end":222.823,"text":"政府對教育的投資當然我們都是很贊成的不過這個的比例也是很驚悚的幾乎是"},{"start":241.984,"end":248.45,"text":"我們投入了超過三倍的預算平均每個人當中的他的成果應該可以要更加的顯著"},{"start":263.965,"end":275.955,"text":"我想跟委員報告這個確實委員從企業經營的一個概念怎麼樣讓我們的教育經費的投入能夠更具有這個這個他的一個效益跟品質這是我們要來努力來這個嚴守的"},{"start":281.019,"end":305.987,"text":"然後再來的話另外一種人這也是我談了很久這一個其實談了一個會期的然後我們8月10號也有這個公聽會我們的教育部的次長也有出席做一些承諾但是到現在我只要確認一下這個政策目前推行的狀況怎麼樣是哪一個單位在負責是高教師還是中教師"},{"start":306.527,"end":331.147,"text":"跟委員報告我們過去原來是一個比較是終身師因為壯世代委員從委員的觀點是希望大概在55歲以後的這樣一個壯世代但確實我現在進來以後我認為從終身學習的一個概念包含為師校找到許多的一些出路怎麼樣去協助他們發展特色的一個學校然後也能夠"},{"start":332.148,"end":332.328,"text":"吳春城"},{"start":357.112,"end":359.554,"text":"所以原來答應了說對於那個第三人生大學推動的這一個的政策現在是聽白嗎?"},{"start":386.909,"end":414.028,"text":"我們基本上在114年就會有一個上半年就有一個說明會跟審查的一個作業所以上半年是等於明年我們上半年就會有做這樣一個好 接下來另外再從預算上面上次的總諮詢當中有對這個高齡的那個中間教育師是3.4億你有說今年有多了2億多那我算起來大概有6億吧"},{"start":415.669,"end":418.031,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":443.266,"end":457.152,"text":"分配6億的教育預算每個人是100塊一年教育經費部長覺得這樣子是什麼意思跟委員報告我們確實在整個應該是說我們整體的一個預算我們並不是用這個6億來來除以這個600萬的我們其實是"},{"start":461.914,"end":485.262,"text":"我剛才跟委員報告我們希望在高教師跟終身師裡邊有更多的合作所以我們其實在整個總體的一個預算上我們一定會有一個更有效的來支持但是呢不管你怎麼說啦就是說其實對這一塊教育是非常方會的剛才那個平均一個人是8萬多的教育經費這裡是100塊"},{"start":487.903,"end":488.083,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":506.19,"end":533.633,"text":"還是沒有覺醒這一塊的所以要更加的努力其實我們真的非常積極努力在思考這個怎麼樣讓30歲離開學校以後他們不管在職場不管在休閒在這一個興趣的發展或者能力的一個另外更多能力的養成我們其實一直希望能夠有更多的管道那個我知道30歲以上都很好但是現在這一個"},{"start":535.154,"end":535.274,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":558.737,"end":582.627,"text":"30歲到60歲但50歲之前我覺得沒有什麼太大問題你就是後端的這一端的問題非常的嚴重要針對這樣的問題現在非常的就社區大學就是什麼那個樂齡大學就是這種敷衍式的教育沒有跟委員報告其實委員可以看到我們現在例如說以華泛來講他原來是一個相對可能要退場的一個學校"},{"start":583.047,"end":583.728,"text":"吳春城教育部長"},{"start":610.888,"end":637.583,"text":"看到這一塊那教育部齁我相信我也我知道你們有在弄但是呢我也希望齁剛才這樣講我們不要把問題私交好好的針對這高齡的是不是可以請教一部齁針對齁這不管是第三人生大學有關壯士來的學習多元體系喔你要針對這一塊是不是可以提出一個規劃出來呢你你如果說我都在做你這個其實就匯總過來沒有我想我們絕對不是要要"},{"start":638.283,"end":638.363,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":668.513,"end":668.713,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:39:25 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好 好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:42:24 - 12:50:12","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155600","gazette":{"lineno":1258,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時42分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，針對現在產業缺工的狀況，你應該時　　常聽到很多企業都在抱怨。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們心中覺得這個產業缺工到底是什麼原因？是薪水不夠？還是年輕人對於產業、對於工作項目不期待？到底是什麼原因？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，缺工的原因當然一方面也有結構性的因素，因為少子化嘛！另一方面當然也有疫後臨時性需求的爆發，因為前面有很多人就退場了，比如講服務業，疫後臨時性的需求爆發，一時找不到人，也有這樣的因素。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個因素是比較大的，可是事實上對產業的各行各業，我相信你都知道，事實上他們在招募的時候，他們是沒辦法從本籍的年輕人去尋找到他們需要的勞動力，因為意願不高，因為現在年輕人比較不喜歡被管，而且他們現在進入AI的時代，他們也覺得更喜歡屬於比較高度自由的，所以類似在工廠、類似在餐飲、在服務業需要被管理的產業，年輕人不去，所以他們需要移工。但是我們臺灣的移工政策還是活在過去3K五級制，就是要有一定的比例，為了這個比例，比方食品製造業是屬於C級，C級的食品製造業為了請一個移工，我可能要請7個本籍勞工，我才能聘請1個移工，問題這7個我就找不來，我就找不來這7個，所以我要請1個移工根本都很困難。所以部長你再認真去看，現在臺灣都是跟日韓對比，現在日本跟韓國就在做移工政策的競賽，兩個國家在那邊拼哪個國家對移工比較讚。","我舉日本為例，日本在2019年就開放藍領可以招募外國移工，然後居留五年，針對建築業、造船、船舶、機械業的監督職務，如果移工已經做到主管，就無居留期限，而且還能帶家人一起前往，無居留期限耶！現在臺灣只有叫做入籍，我們還沒有永居，臺灣現在連永居的制度都還沒有，日本就已經創造了這樣無居留期限，還可以帶家人一起去住。2023年即去年6月的時候，日本還更進一步，那時候岸田在做首相的時候，他就宣布包括製造業、農業、旅宿、餐飲這些產業都可以聘請移工，也是無限期居留，也是可以帶家人同往。哇！現在臺灣餐飲業都還沒有辦法聘請移工。我們都一直有一個觀念，就是不行，因為移工來了會搶了臺灣年輕人的工作，問題是事實也不是這樣啊，既然我們知道事實就不是這樣的話，我們為什麼不大步向前走？把整個移工政策澈底的鬆綁，讓整個臺灣的勞動力補足，而且只要臺灣越國際，臺灣就越安全。部長，我想要聽一下你的看法。"],["何部長佩珊：是，這個問題確實就是委員所講的，是當今我們所面臨的重大問題，我們最新做的缺工調查裡面，我們也發現您講的所謂中階技術人才這一塊是我們目前最缺的，其實我們在最基層的體力工作就移工那部分其實補的都OK了，那當然……"],["蔡委員易餘：NO！部長你有沒有看到我剛講的包括餐飲，包括住宿業，這些是沒有辦法的啊！我剛有舉例日本都已經開放了啊，我們臺灣在這一塊還沒辦法讓移工進去。"],["何部長佩珊：現在已經開放僑外生可以從事旅宿業。"],["蔡委員易餘：是，那是僑外生，那不一樣。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們也把它定義成大概是中階，就是只進服務業的。當然是這樣，委員跟您報告，我注意到經濟委員會有很多委員也提了過去的新經濟移民法，裡面包含未來可能開放外籍中階人才這樣的修法，我瞭解國發會也有這樣的想法跟規劃，我們勞動部現在正在跟國發會討論當中，在這部分我們預備跟國發會合作，會有一些鬆綁，關於中階技術人才的開放。"],["蔡委員易餘：OK！除了中階技術人才，事實上一些傳統工作性質比較辛苦的，我們說的3K產業，他們對於移工需求也是很大。"],["何部長佩珊：對，委員這部分我們會來檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們檢討的速度很慢，以前我跟你提到漁產的加工，我以當時15%來跟你們講這不公平，因為水產品的加工是15%，如果是畜產品的加工是25%，我說應該要讓它一致啊，為什麼做水產的和切豬肉的要讓它不一樣？那時候我跟你們說這個要檢討，結果用兩年的時間才把它檢討，讓它一致。我最近也發現臺灣有很多在做高空煙火，不是傳統的那種炮竹工廠，在做高空煙火的像我們東石也有一間，他們做高空煙火賣到迪士尼，可是你知道做煙火的產業是具有危險性，要聘請臺灣人有困難，所以需要移工，哇！沒辦法，這個還沒有開放，如果一個產業要兩年才可以被檢討進去，兩年這個時間真的是太久了啦！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我了解，現在針對這種只要是主管機關有提案，我們都儘量鬆綁，像最近我們已經通過農業部再增加8,000人的農業移工，然後還有包括環境資源，環境部對資源回收產業過去沒有適用移工，我們也開放讓這部分進來。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長都可以去探聽，像我聽到很多東南亞的他們甚至給我訊息，現在去泰國工作，去當泰國的移工，其實條件已經沒有比臺灣差了，所以現在很多人跑去泰國當移工喔，以前是泰國人來臺灣幫我們做工作啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對，全球搶工嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：現在是大家一起跑去泰國，所以世界正在改變，全世界都面對少子化，也不是只有臺灣有少子化，但是臺灣的政策卻走得比人家還慢，這是我們要趕快加緊腳步來調整，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國代）：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","請廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員不在。","請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:07:45","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:46:11+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155599","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","duration":465,"start_time":"2024-10-16T12:38:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69cf256c4e576964bf3fad801f55955d8b1766e2bcab8f8c7feebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.7690937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.61284375,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.290968750000001,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.204093750000002,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.05034375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.96909375,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.221593750000004,"end":49.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.85534375,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.26909375000001,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.41659375,"end":98.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.63909375,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.37534375000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.67721875,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.23784375,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.41471875000002,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.90784375,"end":144.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.52721875,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.80534375000002,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.77971875,"end":154.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.79159375,"end":155.93909375},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莊部長好時間有限直接切入重點當然很多的委員都一直很關心在這個會期要討論財務收支劃分法那佐隆泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然講是說現行的版本就是最棒的版本換言之如果說假設我們接下來進入到實質的這個竹條審查的部分的話財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本是不是這樣"},{"start":38.106,"end":60.954,"text":"跟委員報告財化法這個事情25年沒有修正您就知道它的一個困難度在這邊那卓院長意思就是說如果沒有討論出一個第一個大家有共識而且是一個非常完善的一個版本的話那以現行的版本來做執行以現行的法條來做執行第一個我們透過財化法然後通過統籌分配稅款一般性補助款"},{"start":61.474,"end":83.495,"text":"還有計劃型的補助館來推動第一個挹注地方的財政同時也讓重大建設能夠在跨區域的來做推動我想這個部分主要是這樣子這大家都知道啊現行法令不就這樣做但是重點在於是說就是沒有做到嘛所以才會25年來沒有修正來部長我先請教卓榮泰院長講是說現行的版本是最棒的版本你認同嗎"},{"start":86.196,"end":93.621,"text":"鐵板一塊都不動了現行的版本最棒版本它最高級喔我們學英文知道嘛比較級最高級最高級代表就是"},{"start":95.014,"end":116.216,"text":"沒有其他比它更高了。你認同這句話嗎?第一個在沒有更完善的版本提出之前現行的版本在行政院在推動上是最有把握的我們現在就是這也是過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多的版本以及我們不管是黨團不管是委員版本就是認為是說希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嗎?"},{"start":118.906,"end":144.114,"text":"所以現在部長所以兩個部分第一看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話我沒有不認同啊那你認同第一個我跟委員剛剛報告過就是說在沒有更完善更好合理的版本我們現在就是要找出更好更完善嘛過去25年您剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財化法"},{"start":145.543,"end":167.627,"text":"你知道二十五年五次的時候就已經討論過非常多但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成包括當時時任的台南市長賴清德現在的賴總統2012年他講說不要從台北看天下不要獨厚台北各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的媽媽嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒然後要給他足夠的養分"},{"start":173.956,"end":180.248,"text":"2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財化法那到現在勒?"},{"start":185.188,"end":202.977,"text":"部長我現在只是比較明確的確定就是說我們現在因為各黨團也都針對說實務的狀況以及縣市來開公聽會因為我們的召委員很負責任嘛開了兩次公聽會嘛那各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了所以說我相信也會有在精進跟討論空間不是鐵板一塊"},{"start":203.897,"end":224.83,"text":"那一樣的道理現在鐵板一塊是誰是財政部委是行政院呢因為有黨團的版本有委員的版本但是自始至終千呼萬喚使不出來就是財政院就是行政院的版本所以我們現在想要問的是當接下來進入到竹條審查財化法修法的時候行政院會不會有版本"},{"start":227.824,"end":254.015,"text":"財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的"},{"start":255.441,"end":281.705,"text":"部長,就是因為簽這個審券廣,你一直講,我想說成功的人找方法,失敗的人找藉口啊你一直在講一堆藉口,我們也知道這些問題啊,你講的我不會不知道本席身為區域的民意代表,我很清楚就像我們一直講到是說六都裡面新北市,我們就很委屈啊如果說這要講六都來講,財化法的這個分配稅款"},{"start":283.027,"end":298.601,"text":"新北市你沒有說是最後一名可是如果說除以400萬的人口除以我們的土地面積我們真的是最後啊我們真的是名落孫山啊那一樣的道理我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多我們只要求公平"},{"start":299.582,"end":326.588,"text":"那一樣嘛拉回來本期現在只要想講的這是一個觀念問題我想今天那麼多我們的金融相關的負責人在這邊要看的是部長的態度啊部長有沒有肩膀有沒有態度就是說當我們現在一直講是說問題在這邊可是我們真的要面對了25年沒有修了大家也認為是說與時近近甚至財政部講是說我們要討論一個符合時宜可長可久的版本"},{"start":328.015,"end":352.312,"text":"那沒有最好只有更好啊那在沒有最好只有更好的情況下我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊當我們討論到財化法的修法的時候財政部到底拿不拿得出版本我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎8月9月都在討論啊所以當委員會就可能陳玉珍召委或是我們另外召委排修法的時候財政部一定會有版本出來一起討論"},{"start":355.965,"end":376.986,"text":"陳委員陳昭委下個禮拜就要排財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊因為我們已經告訴為什麼會沒有版本的原因我們的報告也已經提給財委會啦我們的報告的分析報告非常清楚啊部長如果說是這樣的態度的話那我就覺得是說你過去這25年白混了"},{"start":378.292,"end":384.014,"text":"賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法白混了說實在話這還要解釋是不是部長"},{"start":396.817,"end":422.516,"text":"財政部長,是不是...身在其位謀其政為什麼今天我會特別...我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨啊但是因為你今天是財政部長所以我當然會尖銳的問你就是因為財政部長在這一刻你就要負起相關的責任25年來沒有還是你的想法就是說反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久我就拖過啦換言等我安全下狀的時候這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長"},{"start":423.716,"end":445.741,"text":"跟委員報告負責任的話就是這樣的做法嗎?因為提出好的版本才是負責任的做法所以我們就是因為提出好的版本才是所以現在我們才在講說你有沒有版本嗎?就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜可長可久的版本所以你們要拿出辦法如果拿不出辦法就變成是我們有我們委員其他的版本"},{"start":447.182,"end":464.319,"text":"財政部你就是一昧的阻擋你就是不想進步不想改革那沒有問題啊就讓國人看吧我們一直都在做是謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝孟楷那接著我們請那個鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員那還有"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:38:26 - 12:46:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155599","gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時38分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請莊部長。"],["主席：好，我們請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：莊部長好。時間有限，我直接切入重點，當然很多委員都很關心在這個會期要討論財政收支劃分法，卓榮泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然說現行的版本就是最棒的版本，換言之，假設我們接下來進入實質逐條審查的部分，財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法25年沒有修正，您就知道它的困難度在這邊，卓院長的意思就是如果沒有討論出一個大家有共識，而且是一個非常完善的版本的話，以現行的版本來執行，以現行的法條來執行。第一個，我們透過財劃法、中央統籌分配稅款、一般性補助款，還有計畫型補助款來推動，挹注地方的財政，同時也讓重大建設能夠跨區域的推動，我想這個部分主要是這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：這大家都知道啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：現行法令不就是這樣做？但重點在於就是沒有做到嘛！所以才會25年沒有修正。","來，部長，我先請教，卓榮泰院長說現行的版本是最棒的版本，你認同嗎？鐵板一塊都不動了，現行的版本是最棒的版本！它是最高級喔！我們學英文都知道有比較級、最高級，最高級代表的就是沒有其他比它更高了。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，昨天院長也有提到……"],["洪委員孟楷：你認同這句話嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，在沒有更完善的版本提出之前，現行版本在行政院的推動上是最有把握，我想院長也有這樣講。"],["洪委員孟楷：這也是從過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多版本，以及不管是黨團、不管是委員版本，就是認為希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們也正在討論啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以，部長，兩個部分，第一，看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話？"],["莊部長翠雲：我沒有不認同。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你認同？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我剛剛跟委員報告過，就是在沒有更完善、更好、合理的版本的狀況下，現行版本還是最好的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們現在就是要找出更完善的嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，所以我們財政部在開會……"],["洪委員孟楷：您剛剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表、政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財劃法。"],["莊部長翠雲：25年5次的時候就已經討論非常多。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常多嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成？"],["洪委員孟楷：包括當時時任臺南市長的賴清德──現在的賴總統，2012年他說不要從臺北看天下，不要獨厚臺北，各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒，媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒，要給他足夠的養分。2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財劃法，到現在呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我現在只是比較明確的確定，因為各黨團也都針對實務狀況以及縣市來開公聽會，我們的召委也很負責任開了兩次公聽會，各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了，所以我相信也會有再精進跟討論的空間，不是鐵板一塊！一樣的道理，現在鐵板一塊是誰？是財政部耶！是行政院耶！因為有黨團的版本、有委員的版本，但是自始至終千呼萬喚始不出來的就是財政部、行政院的版本。所以我們現在想要問的是，當接下來進入逐條審查財劃法修法的時候，行政院會不會有版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財政部一直在蒐集地方政府的意見，我們也開會，而您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見，甚至是專家學者的意見。第一個，大家爭取的指標是不一樣的，因為是針對各自有利的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：第二個部分就是要大量讓中央釋出財源的話，事權要不要重新劃分？這個東西事實上牽涉的層面是很廣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，就是因為牽涉的層面廣，你一直講，我就會想：成功的人找方法，失敗的人找藉口！你一直在講一堆藉口，我們也知道這些問題啊，你講的我不會不知道，本席身為區域的民意代表，我很清楚。就像我們一直講六都裡面的新北市，我們就很委屈啊！如果說真的要以六都來講財劃法的分配稅款，新北市沒有說是最後一名，可是如果除以400萬的人口、除以我們的土地面積，我們真的是最後啊！我們真的是名落孫山啊！一樣的道理，我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多，我們只要求公平。一樣嘛！拉回來，本席現在想講的這是一個觀念問題，我想今天那麼多金融相關負責人在這邊，要看的是部長的態度啊！部長有沒有肩膀、有沒有態度；也就是說，當我們現在一直說問題在這邊，可是我們真的要面對了，25年沒有修了，大家也認為是與時俱進，甚至財政部說我們要討論一個符合時宜、可長可久的版本，沒有最好，只有更好啊！在沒有最好、只有更好的情況下，我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊！當我們討論到財劃法修法的時候，財政部到底拿不拿得出版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎？8月、9月都在討論啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以當委員會陳玉珍委召委或是另外的召委排修法的時候，財政部一定會有版本出來，一起討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，陳召委下個禮拜就要排。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：不會有版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為我們已經說明為什麼沒有版本的原因，我們的報告也已經提給財委會，我們的分析報告非常清楚啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，如果是這樣的態度，我就覺得你過去這25年白混了，賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法，白混了！說實在話……"],["莊部長翠雲：什麼叫白混了？我不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：這還要解釋是不是？這還要解釋是不是？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["主席：部長，是不是提書面給洪孟楷委員？"],["洪委員孟楷：身在其位謀其政。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨，但因為你今天是財政部長，所以我當然會尖銳的問你，就是因為財政部長在這一刻就要負起相關的責任。25年來沒有，還是你的想法就是反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久，我就拖過，反正等我安全下莊的時候，這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，負責任的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是這樣的作法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：提出好的版本才是負責任的作法。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為提出好的版本才是，所以現在我們才會問你有沒有版本，就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了，我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜、可長可久的版本。"],["主席：洪孟楷委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們要拿出辦法，如果拿不出辦法，就變成我們委員有其他版本，財政部就是一味阻擋，你就是不想進步、不想改革，那沒有問題啊！就讓國人看吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一直都在做。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝孟楷。","接著我們請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員。","再來是張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員。","接著鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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2019個小時對,超過2000還是一樣的我們減少了85個小時南韓喔,年度總工時1904日本1626其實跟台灣其實我們經濟上都是競爭的對手可是人家工時就是比我們短而且南韓跟日本都還有15到16天的國定假日其實都比台灣還多喔所以這個假日的考慮一直都是勞工各級勞工團體跟各級勞工心中非常期待的"},{"start":146.776,"end":169.626,"text":"過去休一例一休的時候把七天假拿掉是所有勞工心中的痛那我認為這個是應該翻篇的因為那個是前朝政府的決策新的政府上任大家其實都對於這個放假制度的再調整有所期待所以本期也提出了這個國定假日跟節日跟紀念日的實施辦法我們把它入法變成條例的方式來做處理就是希望可以幫勞工把假討回來"},{"start":172.509,"end":199.589,"text":"除了這個國定假日之外其實台灣不只是國定假日比人家少這個台灣的特休也比很多歐美國家都少歐美國家動輒20天以上的特休甚至有一個月甚至到一個半月的特休兩個月的我都聽過那台灣的特休價格相對少特休少國定假日又少那當然台灣變成過勞之島請問部長新上任新的政府對於解決工時過長的問題針對放假的政策勞動部有沒有任何的修正的想法"},{"start":200.885,"end":222.706,"text":"委員第一個我們台灣的這個年總工時你要看他的內涵我們因為我們全時工作者多那日韓部分公司因為我們的部分公司工作者很少只有3%左右日韓他們都有高達20%左右甚至日本有25%的部分公司工作者"},{"start":223.527,"end":245.726,"text":"部分公司工作者在勞動條件或是社會安全方面保障都是比較不好的相較起來我們的勞工的這樣的年總工時可是是因為我們是全時工作者多所以我們不能這樣來類比說其他即便是跟全時工作者相比那你想歐美國家也是全時工作者多對不對那他們的工時甚至更少對不對我們比好不比爛嘛"},{"start":246.426,"end":247.048,"text":"部長你現在的想法是什麼"},{"start":258.468,"end":284.278,"text":"委員我們在週休二日修法當年一例一休修法的時候已經處理這個問題了當年就是因為增加了116每年都可以修116天比過去多增加休假因為週休二日嘛一例一休那麼所以我們才把七天假所謂拿掉而且委員七天假還有一個大問題是他們都是過時的"},{"start":285.698,"end":285.978,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":301.584,"end":317.158,"text":"只是改了這個東西而不要去砍七天假的話那勞基法其實往好的方向修正可是就是因為你砍了這個七天假反而讓他變成勞工心中的痛我認為在政府改朝換代的同時啊應該做重新的思考現在世界各地很多主流甚至是比如週休三日他的概念都慢慢開始出來"},{"start":318.459,"end":337.482,"text":"所以是不是這樣子的一個壓榨勞工的這種這減少放假的然後還導致颱風架等等衍生問題的狀況本期認為有必要來做一些調整所以這些案子這個今天日及節日實施條例草案很快就會有公聽會很快就會有審查希望勞動部做好準備也希望不要被過去的框架跟包袱所拖累"},{"start":338.163,"end":350.192,"text":"如果能夠審視現在的國際趨勢或者是站在勞工的本位從降低我們的工時提高勞工的待遇來出發做好的修繕這是我們期待部長上任之後可以完成的重要政策目標請部長納入思考可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:36:20 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12:39:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案。）","id":"155597","gazette":{"lineno":1019,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時33分）謝謝主席。請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。部長，昨天我在總質詢的時候有提到營養午餐法，因為我想到，現在韓國黑白大廚裡面不是有一位國小的營養午餐廚師晉級到前面去了，我那時候是說，立法院已經有委員提出營養午餐法或是學校供餐法等相關的法案，但是教育部好像還沒有相對應的法案，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，要怎麼樣讓學生有一個更健康的營養午餐？事實上，這是各界，包含家長和政府都非常關心的，也是民意代表一直關心的。確實，現在這個部分因為不同的型態，然後有許多的共識，我們一直在蒐集資料，希望能等有完整的共識後，也許適當的時機我們就會提出來。"],["李委員坤城：但是不要拖，你要把這個法案跟各界做溝通和協調，我都沒有什麼意見，但是就是不要拖，你們有預計哪時候要提到立法院來嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：其實目前還有很多的爭議和不同的看法，這個爭議還滿大的。"],["李委員坤城：但是你們還是要去克服和解決，這總是要有一個期限啊！沒有？沒有這個期限？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員回報一下，目前大概有3個議題還在凝聚共識，第一個是：偏鄉；第二個是：人員；第三個是：各供餐型態的餐價。"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，這個問題你們去協助和解決，我只是問，你們會不會提出類似營養午餐法或學校供餐法這樣的法案到立法院來？會不會？"],["彭署長富源：這個是不是再給我們一些時間，因為還有剛剛那3個議題，長久以來我們都有行政措施，請再給我們一點時間好不好？"],["李委員坤城：我本來只是問你們何時會提過來？你們沒辦法保證，我是問：「會不會？」，欸！我已經退一步了，會不會都沒辦法給我一個答案？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會努力的來協調。"],["李委員坤城：會？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來努力協調。"],["李委員坤城：協調？那會不會送到立法院來？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為它確實還存在著許多爭議，包括人員、經費和預算等等。"],["李委員坤城：來，部長，院長昨天有講到，他會不定期的、無預警的去吃營養午餐，我可不可以邀請您一起來我們三重吃營養午餐？"],["鄭部長英耀：我當然樂於。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我們約個時間來吃，我們也是無預警的，我們11點再去。"],["鄭部長英耀：只要時間可以，我們就直接到學校去。"],["李委員坤城：好，我們就直接到學校去。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在自然的狀態下，因為這樣比較真實。"],["李委員坤城：OK！那我們約個時間一起去吃營養午餐，讓你知道現在孩子的營養午餐到底是在吃什麼，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["李委員坤城：好。我再問一下，這也是我選區的事情，三重某高職的一位老師，他有在他的Threads上發表一些言論，請部長看一下這樣合不合適？他說：這學期開始了我的教職生活，到三重的學校任教，發掘到8+9的魅力，譬如說：昨天代課時遇到只上過一次課，左小腿佈滿刺青的高三男學生，他在經過我的辦公室時，跟我說了聲：「嗨～」，我轉頭看了他一眼，給了一個微笑，他也笑了一下之後離開辦公室。這個場景比我近期遇到的男人都還要帥氣跟有魅力。這是一個被+9精煉高中生迷到的老師的危險心得。好，我不曉得部長你看了有沒有什麼樣的感想？","另外，他在一天前又講了，一樣是他的心得。「仍然是被+9少年迷惑的高中老師。學生們怎麼都長得這麼好看啊！怎麼只有15、16歲，老師會等你們3年的（？）。」當然，他有打一個問號，這個場景啊！如果今天換成是男老師的話，我想就炸鍋了，但是不管是男老師或女老師，我認為這都不應該、也不可以，我想請教一下部長的看法？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，老師在網路上寫個人對外在事物的看法，這要怎麼樣去……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，這個涉及到性平。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我的意思是說，這應該要謹守分際，這確實是不宜的。據我們所知，新北市教育局會在17日召開性平會議，針對這個案例，他們會請這位老師來做說明，這個調查小組已經組成。"],["李委員坤城：因為這位老師對於質疑他的一些脆友，因為他們說你這樣不適宜，結果他還反嗆。當然，我知道這件事情新北市教育局已經有在處理了，我也希望教育部能夠關心這件事情。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們也會積極的來督導。"],["李委員坤城：OK！"],["主席：這個事情就請教育部給他書面報告，或者是跟李坤城辦公室說明、討論，好嗎？"],["李委員坤城：最後的結果要跟我們講，當然，我們也會去跟新北市教育局……"],["鄭部長英耀：最後的調查結果我們會讓委員知道。"],["李委員坤城：不是，這個非常非常的不適當。"],["主席：請部長之後再跟李委員說明。部長請回。謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","再來請本委員會的吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:08:17","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:38:13+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155596","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","duration":497,"start_time":"2024-10-16T12:29:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69f9930022f7c484d93fad801f55955d8b1766e2bcab8f8c7f14d5e53a528fd4095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.42721875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.03471875,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.840343750000001,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.93659375,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.223468750000002,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.35846875,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.83096875,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.75409375,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.09971875,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.56159375,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.31596875,"end":43.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.619093750000005,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.41221875,"end":51.111593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.60096875,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.84721875000001,"end":69.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.02846875,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.68471875,"end":87.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.71346875,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.81846875000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.26346875,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.22534375000001,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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我們就朝這個目標你不要緊張我們就在聽你的政策然後我們會去追蹤接下來本期最後一個議題請教IMB的平台詐騙金管會鼓勵銀行跟P2P"},{"start":322.257,"end":345.702,"text":"的這個平台業者去進行合作所以目前為止你們宣稱的五家合作銀行那麼在8月7號的時候監察院提出有四家是有狀況的沒有依照你們目前的這個指標流程所以本席要請教我們為了管控房子洗錢以及治安的風險你要"},{"start":347.822,"end":370.58,"text":"若實將P2P的這個業務納入銀行的內控那你目前也已經行文給銀行工會請他們請銀行來做 是不是啊是那所以你們是不是有具體的指標跟SOP給他們因為你五家監察院就給你提出四家有狀況欸"},{"start":372.523,"end":397.374,"text":"為什麼會如此呢?請說明因為目前為止我們是透過銀行工會我們也想要來組成一個就是鼓勵他們成立一個所謂的工會但是因為他們P2P業者彼此之間的業務的關係或什麼東西目前為止這個工會籌組的自律現在還在進行當中就是因為在溝通平台根本還沒有辦法去溝通所以本席提出這個議題這個問題你一直"},{"start":401.636,"end":405.091,"text":"一道指令下去給沿南工會沿南工會要依據什麼?"},{"start":406.653,"end":434.71,"text":"要依據什麼?所以本席具體建議你必須將具體的指引跟SOP你要給銀行公會這個是你金管會必須要去做嫁接橋樑的這個重點工作嘛 對不對是 那我們會再跟銀行公會持續保持聯繫你多久時間趕快跟他們去討論人家收到你一張文不知道怎麼做你多久時間你具體的SOP流程跟指令可以告訴本席"},{"start":435.51,"end":443.924,"text":"是,因為我們現在銀行公會那邊溝通是順暢但是P2P業者他們公會一直組起來當然啊所以你必須要連結得上才有結果啊你要不要去溝通"},{"start":448.952,"end":472.114,"text":"你督導單位啊那大批通信的平台怎麼跟你們去連結啊去討論啊對不對你趕快去做好不好你也要讓銀行公會銀行團他能夠有一個指標有一個SOP嘛對不對是不是你要不要去做會做多久時間會有一個方向出來告訴我們"},{"start":475.696,"end":475.796,"text":"蔡義儀委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:29:56 - 12:38:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155596","gazette":{"lineno":1056,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時29分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長跟金管會。"],["主席：好，部長跟金管會陳副主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們看到國內的投資詐騙案件這麼多，而且成長驚人，根據警方的統計數字顯示，去年的詐欺犯罪發生數以投資詐欺為最多，占所有詐騙31.13%，比上年度增加五千多件，這個還是顯性喔！隱性的還不知道多少，所以它的成長幾乎是翻倍。那麼，其中最嚴肅的就是65歲以上因為投資詐騙受害的更是最多，而且一直在累進增加，在這樣的情況之下，財政部認為有什麼因應方案防止，讓大家可以識詐，具備識詐、防詐的能力？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當然第一個，我們會在我們行員的部分增加關懷，也就是對於年長者在做高額匯款的時候要多問一些，讓他們知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個現在就已經在做，而且也救了一部分回來，非常感謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們也有相當的成效，攔阻成功的也滿高的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：滿高的，但是數字還是往上升，所以要不要再精準方案策略？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，另外對於客戶在開戶的時候，也要確實執行KYC；也就是說，對客戶要注意，避免詐騙的人開帳戶開得太浮濫。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，人頭戶。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個部分也要特別注意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個除了注意以外，我們有什麼應對？本席要跟你討論的是，如果這個帳號已經有嫌疑，你們能不能連線法務部這些司法檢調單位？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為有很多很明顯，一看就知道是詐騙的人頭戶。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，所以我們也會參加財金公司所建置的「約定轉入帳號灰名單」的通報，也就是說，在這個部分，銀行之間對於這種灰名單、比較可疑的帳戶都會提早警示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：灰名單我們要怎麼樣去預防？因為預防重於治療。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個課題我再給部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你再去精準方案。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這一定要一直精進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把書面資料給本席，因為我們一直精進，但是數字是一直增加的，我們也不願意只有一句話：道高一尺，魔高一丈！這個也是漏氣自己。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們是政府，我們更應該要去精準這個方案，你把精準方案給本席好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們再提個報告給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你多久可以給本席？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是不是一個月內給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一個月內要給本席，我們要讓他們識詐、防詐，好不好？這個太恐怖了！","接下來本席要請教金管會。部長，你請回。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：虛擬通貨商業同業公會成立，在這樣情況之下要進行虛擬資產保管試辦業務，所以本席要請教，你們參考國際經驗要提升整個風險管理跟資訊安全的標準，這是最基本的，為了要跟世界接軌，我們也必須要這麼做。但是本席要請教，虛擬資產保管試辦業務預計什麼時候會上路？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：這個部分先試辦，明年初就上路。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年初就上路？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是據本席了解，好像很多銀行和券商不是很很熱情地參與，有這回事嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：因為畢竟是一個新型……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說明年初，現在已經10月了，你有沒有把握？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：其實我們已經有洽兩家，他們已經願意開始做，因為畢竟是一個新型業務，他們有時候比較沒有接觸過，所以我們先從試辦開始。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，先試辦，現在是兩家嘛！明年是正式上路？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：明年的話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候會正式上路？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：其實我們今年第四季的時候，就是現在，我們會推出一個虛擬資產的主題業務試辦，所以在這個部分，明年就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是試辦嘛，什麼時候正式上路？現在是試辦。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我們要看看業者在試辦的過程中，因為我們是滾動式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：滾動式檢討？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：不是，就是我們要往前推，畢竟在這個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你總是有一個KPI指標、目標跟軌道在那裡嘛！本席再一次請教，現在是試辦，那什麼時候會正式上路？你們的目標啦！"],["陳副主任委員彥良：其實我們的目標就是明年正式上路。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年正式上路？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：對，在保管這個部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們就朝這個目標，你不要緊張，我們就在聽你的政策，然後我們會去追蹤嘛！"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席最後一個議題請教，im.B平臺詐欺案發前，金管會鼓勵銀行與P2P平臺業者進行合作，所以到目前為止，你們宣稱有5家合作銀行，在8月7號的時候監察院提出有4家是有狀況的，沒有依照你們目前的指標、流程，所以本席要請教，為了管控、防制洗錢以及資安的風險，你要落實將P2P業務納入銀行內控，目前你也已經行文給銀行公會，請他們請銀行來做，是不是？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們是不是有具體的指標跟SOP給他們？因為5家當中，監察院就提出4家有狀況，怎麼會如此呢？請說明。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：因為目前為止我們是透過銀行公會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我們也想要鼓勵他們成立所謂的公會，但是因為P2P業者彼此之間的業務關係或什麼東西，目前為止，這個公會籌組的自律還在進行當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是因為在溝通上平臺根本還沒有辦法去溝通，所以本席提出這個議題、這個問題，你一道指令下去給銀行公會，銀行公會要依據什麼？所以本席具體建議，你必須將具體的指引跟SOP給銀行公會，這個是金管會必須要去做嫁接橋梁的重點工作嘛，對不對？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，我們會再跟銀行公會持續保持聯繫。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你多久時間趕快跟他們去討論，人家收到你一張文不知道要怎麼做。你多久時間可以把具體的SOP流程跟指令告訴本席？您告訴我一個時間點。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：現在跟銀行公會那邊溝通是順暢，但是P2P業者公會一直組不起來，所以變成對接不起來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊！必須要連結得上才有結果啊！你要不要去溝通？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是督導單位啊！P2P平臺怎麼跟你們連結、討論，對不對？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你趕快去做，好不好？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也要讓銀行公會、銀行團能夠有一個指標，有一個SOP嘛，對不對？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要不要去做？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：會做，遵照委員指示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間會有一個方向出來告訴我們？多久時間？"],["主席：是不是請以書面答復？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間？告訴我就好了，多久時間？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：一個月我們提個報告給委員，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這樣子我們才有辦法有一個目標嘛，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝瓊瓔委員。","接著蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員沒到。","接著請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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算了一下我們在國內的金酒公司在國內的白酒市場大概占到7乘5、7乘8所以我們繳的稅很多但是你們一年才我們這四年才給我們35萬的這個行銷這個發展的這個相關的這個幫助這占比也太低了吧以我們的貢獻度來講你們對我們的幫助也太少了吧"},{"start":292.525,"end":308.393,"text":"公務員報告這個是金酒公司他來申請也就是說他如果來申請你的意思是說金酒公司申請不夠就對了是不是?他們申請了7個場次然後就是說從過去到現在你意思是說金酒公司可以申請多一點你們會支持就對了是吧?我們會在我們的預算範圍內來處理"},{"start":310.294,"end":327.603,"text":"預算範圍內我們交25億到30億你給我們35萬這個有給跟沒給是不是也是差不多對我們的幫助實在是太小那你把這個寫進來如果是金九沒有申請我回去我當然會問金九公司未來可能委員也可以支持我們在這部分的補助預算我們請那個關務署這個"},{"start":331.667,"end":354.235,"text":"署長,您也聽一下,我看到這個國際上世界各國各地啊,我們看到去新加坡啊,去這個韓國啊,去哪裡?日本,我們以前去日本嘛,我們看到各國有亞洲,這也是亞洲國家啊,美國也好,歐美啊,這個不管是車子,不管是進口車或是他們產製車,都非常的價錢比台灣便宜很多啊。"},{"start":355.612,"end":371.484,"text":"您們不覺得像以國內的這個以我們的國民來講房貸的壓力很大那買車子如果又造成一個很重大的壓力事實上也是增加人民的負擔啊我看了一下我們這個買車真的是萬萬歲啊應該要做一個本期做一個表你看進口車2000CC以下17.5%的關稅25%的貨物稅"},{"start":375.427,"end":385.422,"text":"五趴的營業稅加起來一台車兩千西西下要增五十四點二趴的稅兩千西西以上要增六十點四趴的稅好這是進口車國產車的部分呢兩千西西以下"},{"start":386.55,"end":410.666,"text":"一台車要課25%的貨物稅5%的營業稅等於是31.2%那國產車2000cc以上的30%的貨物稅5%的營業稅一台車要徵36.5%的稅等於是不管進口或國產車每一台車都至少要三成以上的稅負交給我們的國家我們國家需要這樣對付對我們的人民嗎當然署長你是關稅我先我請問那個部長這個買車萬萬稅這個部分"},{"start":415.286,"end":429.917,"text":"跟委員報告第一個關稅的部分關稅的部分我們是加入WTO的時候就有關稅減讓的承諾然後在10年內我們其實原來更高所以當時承諾就是17.5的關稅那是對外最低的承諾嘛我不是很說最低嗎那貨物稅呢貨物稅的部分"},{"start":433.84,"end":439.787,"text":"為了讓我們的淨零減碳的一個政策目標所以我們對於電動車的電動車、電動車、貨物稅都是免徵對貨物稅免徵那是鼓勵電動車這個我支持這個部分我支持這個沒問題我沒有在問你電動車我支持這個部分"},{"start":451.862,"end":480.175,"text":"貨物稅早年徵貨物稅目的是因為有點像是有點像奢侈稅嘛說這個比較特種的稅嘛說這個可能那時候早年這個那個開車可能是一個比較奢侈的事民國七十幾年金門開始有車我家金門開始有車是民國七十幾年啊金門還比較晚啊台灣當然比較早但是那時候車子比較少嘛現在車子是一個基本的交通工具啊尤其不要你不要說在台北市這種比較都會去像在比較不是都會去的地方沒有經營的地方很多家庭也都是需要車子嘛幾乎"},{"start":481.328,"end":510.337,"text":"我不敢說人人啦那基本上每一家都是需要車子那給國人這麼高的這個關稅我先不跟你談關稅關稅涉及到國產跟進口這個我看那個車稅公會也有提到那貨物稅的部分呢為什麼不能減呢為什麼百姓要買車要買這麼貴比韓國、日本、新加坡還有那個美國啦新加坡很貴一點韓國、日本新加坡收入高我們收入又沒有高人家很多我們要繳這麼我們已經要百姓要承擔這麼重的這個房貸了還要承擔很重的車貸"},{"start":511.597,"end":535.634,"text":"這個不用改嗎?我想貨物稅的部分我們現在是引導消費者能夠往電動車的方式去採購這個我也支持電動車我也支持那還沒有買電動車之前現在如果還有其他車我也支持電動車這個是沒有違背的沒有衝突的那現在這個貨物稅的部分讓老百姓可以買到便宜的車子不好嗎?"},{"start":536.912,"end":553.238,"text":"有什麼困難?對你們稅稅影響大嗎?我剛剛看別的網友寫貨稅整個貨稅稅也不是說那麼那麼多對你們稅稅影響很大嗎?車的部分影響這麼大嗎?你不能全免你至少降嘛這個有困難嗎?"},{"start":554.598,"end":572.926,"text":"我想這個部分貨物稅整體應該要跟整個稅制來報告你不要告訴我整體貨物稅我只告訴你車子的貨物稅我只請問你車子的貨物稅現在25嘛25的話可以降多少你們有沒有去研究過可以降多少25%你看270030%那國產這也要25跟30這個就算你不能全免也可以考慮降稅吧我想這個部分應該要整體來考量結果你的考慮是什麼不能降的原因是什麼"},{"start":584.264,"end":600.78,"text":"不能這樣的原因你現在是覺得不能這樣嗎?我說可以考慮貨物稅的部分我們談過我們會跟整體的綠色能源綠色稅制會要我一直跟你強調電動車那部分我完全支持你不用跟我同意你告訴我說一般的車子"},{"start":602.199,"end":613.383,"text":"我當然支持大家多用電動車,但是現在就很多人還沒有那個...你要怎麼來這個...你至少要去鼓勵購買電動車的...可以可以,來請你提一個報告給我,來提一個報告給我來,如果齁,汽機車這個稅制齁,如果說比如說你降5%影響稅損多少吧,10%影響稅損多少,可能會有怎麼樣的改變嘛,你不要..."},{"start":622.586,"end":623.006,"text":"議員提出書面報告"},{"start":641.596,"end":664.35,"text":"沒關係齁 兩個禮拜可以吧 算數而已嘛兩個禮拜算一下 兩個禮拜提出來 汽機車稅制檢討及改革方案書面報告我知道 在這個部分 其實不分藍綠的委員都有提出這個有關車價實在太高的問題我這個想法其實是 想法很簡單 如果你提出來以後你們堅決不改 我們也不需要你們同意才需要改 我們一樣會提案我也會請民進黨的委員一起來提案我想民眾也會支持這個車稅這個貨物稅降的這個"},{"start":666.811,"end":673.639,"text":"所以你們要往可以更改的方向去思考如果你一樣鐵板一塊,對不起我們一樣做我們應該做的事情好,謝謝委員、謝謝部長好,謝謝陳一貞委員接著我們請楊瓊英委員發言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:18:25 - 12:29:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155592","gazette":{"lineno":973,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時18分）主席，我們請財政部跟國庫署。"],["主席：好，財政部、國庫署。"],["陳委員玉珍：晚一點有關務署。"],["主席：還有哪一個單位？"],["陳委員玉珍：關務署。部長，下個星期本席開始擔任召委，我知道你公務繁忙，但是我們就開始排財劃法的修正案。本席尊重行政院及貴部，就是可能沒有辦法或是不願意，或是覺得沒有必要提出院版的財劃法的修正草案。這個本席表示尊重，不過因為我們這裡是立法院，也不是行政院立法局，沒有貴部的版本，我們一樣會進行修法，這個應該要有一點心理準備。對於二十幾位委員所提出的這個版本，請你們也是仔細的、認真的研究一下。","我想請問國庫署，國庫署有推優質認證酒類產業發展計畫，對不對？我看你的相關報告裡寫到，109年到111年計畫，112年到114年計畫，優良酒業的酒類認證標誌有三個目標，就是提高優質酒類認證的標誌及認證酒類知名度，第二個提升國產酒品的國際競爭力，第三個優化中小型業者的營運體質。這是你們的三大目標對吧？"],["陳署長柏誠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：是嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：有達到嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們這幾年都有在協助，也辦了很多活動，都有在協助我們優質酒類認證的這些酒品，並協助行銷。"],["陳委員玉珍：在協助國產酒品的產業發展，你覺得成果怎麼樣？"],["陳署長柏誠：是……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是在國內或者外銷。"],["陳署長柏誠：在國內的部分，我們今年就有結合一些餐飲業，大家來一起……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是要知道內容，我要知道的是結果。"],["陳署長柏誠：結果的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：越來越好嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：主要就是讓各界知道，我們優質酒品認證有哪些酒品。"],["陳委員玉珍：在你們的推動下，我們國產酒類出口的成效越來越好嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：這個可以不可以會後我們再補充給委員？"],["陳委員玉珍：你不知道嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：對，目前……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們署裡就有資料，你看喔，在你們努力的推動之下，國產酒外銷數量不增反減，從101年1,280萬公升，還有108年到111年，這是到111年經濟部的資料，數量不增反減，現在剩下1,100萬公升。國產酒的國內市場占有率連年下滑，從60.6%像溜滑梯一樣，58.1%、53.1%、51.8%，到112年48.5%，這是去年。在你們的努力推廣之下，你們努力的幫助國產酒做很多計畫，但是在你們這個認證方案的努力之下，國產酒的銷量越來越差，在國內市場下降，在外銷市場也下降。"],["陳署長柏誠：是，在外銷的部分，因為其實可能受限於一些區域環境的變化，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼叫區域環境？區域環境是國際市場共同有的。"],["陳署長柏誠：比如說我們有一些是銷到大陸去的，大陸那邊目前就有一些……"],["陳委員玉珍：大陸市場整體下降，大陸的酒廠也是下降，一樣啊！"],["陳署長柏誠：所以那部分的銷量就會少……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我們的比率，在國內部分我們是下降，那外國進來，為什麼我們的國產酒市占率也越來越低呢？你了解嗎？你說外銷整個區域變化，那國內市場，人家進來我們這裡，我們的占比也越來越低啊！所以說不管在國內或者在國外，我們都一直在退步，這個例子很明顯啊！這個數據會說話，國庫署要努力的輔導我們國內的中小企業廠商，對於這個部分，請你在一週內提出優質認證酒類產業發展方案的報告，包含你的成效，以及你要怎麼樣讓它更進步。我們希望看到的是越來越好，跟全世界比賽，有沒有問題？"],["陳署長柏誠：是，可以，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我們來看這個，你們對金酒公司的幫助也實在很少，你特別看一下，金酒公司是我們國內酒品的製造商，每一年我們上繳25到30億以上的菸酒稅，這個數據應該沒有問題吧？我算了一下，我們金酒公司占國內的白酒市場大概占七成五、七成八，所以我們繳的稅很多，但是你們這四年才給我們35萬的行銷、發展的相關幫助，這個占比也太低了吧，以我們的貢獻度來講，你們對我們的幫助也太少了吧。"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，這個是金酒公司來申請，也就是說它如果來申請，我們會補助……"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思是說金酒公司申請不夠就對了，是不是？好，那我會……"],["陳署長柏誠：他們來申請了7個廠次，然後就是說從過去到現在……"],["陳委員玉珍：你意思是說金酒公司可以申請多一點，你們會支持就對了，是吧？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們會在我們的預算範圍內來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：預算範圍內？那我們交25億到30億，你給我們35萬，這個有給跟沒給是不是也是差不多，是不是？對我們的幫助實在是太小。你把這個寫進來，如果是金酒沒有申請，我回去當然會問金酒公司。"],["陳署長柏誠：未來可能委員也可以支持我們，在這一部分的補助預算。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。我們請關務署署長，部長你也聽一下，國際上世界各國各地，我們看到去新加坡、去韓國、去日本，我們看到各國，有亞洲國家，也有歐美，不管是進口車或是他們的產製車，價錢比臺灣便宜很多。你們不覺得像國內，以我們的國民來講，房貸的壓力很大，買車子如果又造成一個很重大的壓力，事實上也是增加人民的負擔。我看了一下，我們買車真的是萬萬稅，本席做了一個表，你看進口車2000c.c.以下，17.5%的關稅、25%的貨物稅、5%的營業稅，加起來一台車2000c.c.以下要徵54.2%的稅，2000c.c.以上要徵60.4%的稅，這是進口車；國產車的部分，2000c.c.以下，一台車要課25%的貨物稅、5%的營業稅，等於是31.2%，國產車2000c.c.以上的，要課30%的貨物稅、5%的營業稅，一台車要徵36.5%的稅。等於是不管進口或國產車，每一台車都至少要交三成以上的稅賦給我們的國家。我們國家需要這樣對我們的人民嗎？當然，署長是負責關稅部分，我先請問部長買車萬萬稅這個部分。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個關稅的部分，我們是加入WTO的時候，就有關稅減讓承諾，然後在十年內……我們其實原來更高，所以當時承諾就是17.5%的關稅……"],["陳委員玉珍：那是對外最低的承諾，我不是要你做到最低嘛！那貨物稅呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：貨物稅的部分，為了我們的淨零減碳的政策目標，所以我們對於電動車的……"],["陳委員玉珍：那你要鼓勵的是電動車……"],["莊部長翠雲：電動車的牌照稅、貨物稅都是免徵。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你要鼓勵的是電動車，這個我支持，這個部分我支持，這個沒問題，我沒有要問你電動車，我支持這個部分。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：早年徵貨物稅的目的是因為有點像奢侈稅，說這個是比較特種的稅，可能那時候早年開車是一個比較奢侈的事。金門開始有車是民國七十幾年，金門還比較晚，臺灣當然比較早，但是那時候車子比較少，現在車子是一個基本的交通工具。你不要說在臺北市這種比較都會區，像在比較不是都會區的地方，在沒有捷運的地方，很多家庭也都需要車子。我不敢說人人，基本上每一家都需要車子，那給國人課這麼高的稅……關稅我先不跟你談，關稅涉及到國產跟進口部分，我看車輛公會也有提到，那貨物稅的部分呢？貨物稅的部分能不能減呢？為什麼我們百姓買車要買這麼貴？比韓國、日本，還有美國貴？新加坡貴一點，但新加坡收入高，我們收入沒有高人家很多，我們要繳這麼多，我們百姓已經要承擔這麼重的房貸了，還要承擔很重的車貸，這個不用改嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想貨物稅的部分，我們現在是引導消費者能夠往電動車方面去採購，希望……"],["陳委員玉珍：電動車沒有問題，這個我也支持，電動車我也支持。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：在還沒有買電動車之前，現在如果還有其他的我也支持，這個是沒有違背、沒有衝突的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：但現在貨物稅的部分，讓老百姓可以買到便宜的車子不好嗎？有什麼困難？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，為了鼓勵導向這邊嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：對你們稅損影響很大嗎？我剛剛看別的委員有提到貨物稅，整個貨物稅也不是那麼多，對你們稅損影響很大嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：大概有一千多億，貨物稅整體來說大概有一千億。"],["陳委員玉珍：車的部分影響這麼大嗎？不能全免，至少降嘛，這個有困難嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，貨物稅整體應該要跟整個稅制來考慮。"],["陳委員玉珍：你不要告訴我整體，我只告訴你車子的貨物稅，我只請問你車子的貨物稅，現在是25%，25%的話可以降多少？你們有沒有去研究過可以降多少？2,000cc是30%，國產車也要25%跟30%。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個就算你不能全免，也可以考慮降稅吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分應該要整體來考量。"],["陳委員玉珍：你的考慮是什麼？不能降的原因是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：不能降的原因……"],["陳委員玉珍：你現在是覺得不能降嗎？或是可以考慮？"],["莊部長翠雲：貨物稅的部分，我們談過……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是要你全免。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟整體的綠色能源、綠色稅制會要一併討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：我一直跟你強調電動車那部分我完全支持，你不用跟我討論這個，你告訴我一般的車子就好，我當然也支持大家多用電動車，但是現在就是很多還沒有用，你要怎麼做？你至少要去……"],["莊部長翠雲：鼓勵購買電動車的政策目的就會……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以、可以，請你提一個報告給我。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們提一份報告給委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：比如汽機車稅制降5%會影響稅損多少、10%會影響稅損多少、可能會有怎麼樣的改變，你不要鐵板一塊完全不動，你要站在百姓的角度想，房貸已經很重了，有人買不起車子，車貸也很重，要讓百姓可以用得到，至少這是基本的運輸工具。有沒有問題？多久可以給我？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們提出書面報告，是不是容許我們一個月內？"],["陳委員玉珍：一個月內是不是有點太久？沒關係吧！兩個禮拜可以吧？算數而已嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，兩個禮拜。"],["陳委員玉珍：兩個禮拜算一下，兩個禮拜提出來汽機車稅制檢討及改革方案書面報告。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道在這個部分其實不分藍綠的委員都有提車價太高的問題，而我這個想法其實很簡單，如果你提出來後你們堅決不改，我們也不需要你們同意才需要改，我們一樣會提案，我也會請民進黨委員一起來提案，我想民眾黨也會支持降低汽車貨物稅，所以你們要往可以更改的方向去思考，如果你一樣鐵板一塊，那對不起，我們一樣做我們應該做的事情。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員。接著我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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text":"北科大要效市我們沒有意見全台灣頂這麼多為什麼非要這塊土地非要我們百年建國啤酒廠破壞了一個百年建國啤酒廠對教育也是非常不好的時間超過了是不是部長給書面報告或者是之後再跟王委員解釋好嗎我希望你們讓北科大提出"},{"start":320.78,"end":320.82,"text":"王鴻薇議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:22:28 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局長請謝主席 洪委員好蔡局長 蔡局長我特別看了一下我們國安局的業務報告其實國家安全是我們重中之重那我們也認為是說大家要共同來捍衛跟回復那其中我想請教一下是說對於我們不管是能源等相關的一些這種能源"},{"start":29.443,"end":58.306,"text":"算不算是重要的戰略物資因為我們有人講說電力國力這都非常重要是是是依照那個政案管理法我們剛提到的都是關鍵設施是關鍵設施對那我不知道說局長有沒有看到說昨天這個經濟部部長講說我們要讓拉電纜或是說用船運輸這個電從菲律賓從外國回來到台灣跟我們台灣的這個企業使用有看到這有沒有相關的"},{"start":59.187,"end":71.07,"text":"對,因為這個是可能經濟部在評估的方案那還沒有啟動到一個機制請國安局去提供意見那假如有的話我們會提出我們的相關情報但是部長也不用他就直接對讓公眾都知道所以說現在大家都知道哇原來部長有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":84.773,"end":98.818,"text":"所以第一他沒有跟國安局這邊討論過或是說國安局沒有收到經濟部有正式還沒有還沒有沒有那第二現在大家也都知道了那局長以您專業的角度來判斷一下我們跟菲律賓沒有邦交"},{"start":99.918,"end":122.285,"text":"菲律賓兩年前他們的領導人對於相對來說他是比較親中國大陸的政策的現在的領導人相對來講是跟中國大陸的關係比較淡但是菲律賓的一個政經情勢您的通篇的一個業務報告裡面也都在講我們政經情勢跟我們國家的安全的部分菲律賓"},{"start":123.285,"end":123.485,"text":"提供給予"},{"start":141.391,"end":145.837,"text":"因為這個就已經牽涉到國際情勢那如果說菲律賓這個國家跟我們沒有那麼close甚至他們不是我們的邦交國的時候"},{"start":157.774,"end":174.609,"text":"那今天如果假設他的領導人換了然後變成是比較親中國大陸你的通篇報告裡面都認為中國大陸是我們現在最大的家鄉敵那這樣子會不會我們的經濟我們的發電命脈國家安全的重要的物資跟能源被掌握在別人的手上"},{"start":175.989,"end":192.456,"text":"這樣到底是強化民主夥伴的合作關係還是弱化我們的國家安全理解委員的關切以及背後的那個問題意識我充分理解但因為我看那個經濟部可能他還在初步的一個如果經濟部報上來以國安單位專業評估你會怎麼建議"},{"start":196.577,"end":213.329,"text":"我們會先看經濟部的內容到底方案是什麼比如說剛委員提到的是日本是菲律賓那放在哪一個地點那那個地點的基礎設施完不完善那以及可能聯通的管道網絡該怎麼鋪設這要有一個全面的方案在評估比較能夠從國安的角度來發揮"},{"start":215.01,"end":239.429,"text":"有講的也沒講耶對阿但這次要歷經個評估過程局長不用那麼的小心啦我現在很直接的講我說實在話我們都還沒有講因為也有媒體就已經講是說哇好像3月4月5月已經有廠商去菲律賓有做前期投資喔所以現在部長去講的話是不是跟這個廠商有一問一答是要拉抬股價還是什麼不知道"},{"start":240.069,"end":268.343,"text":"但是至少從國安的角度來說能源電力我們有辦法依賴你今天不是在台灣今天在台灣有任何一個電廠大家就已經叫翻了就沒有想到我們居然是說遠在幾百公里別的國家不是我們的領土我們要把我們的電放在那邊然後靠著是合約靠著是商業模式把那個電給買回來那如果說今天有任何的狀況我都不講說甚至海底電有沒有什麼樣的一個問題"},{"start":269.784,"end":293.645,"text":"你覺得這對於國安來講到底它是增強我們的國安還是催化我們的國安對我想後面我們來跟經濟部多了解一些他們相關規劃的細節那假如找到細節的話我們再來做局長用專業來講啦如果說真的不可行或者是說真的是可能會圖利的狀況的話以國安局的角度來說好好的提出專業那另外一個部分"},{"start":294.898,"end":315.379,"text":"蔡總統蔡前總統現在有出訪歐洲那也媒體報導是說他可能也會到前往美國那我想只要是我們中華民國現任總統現任元首前元首只要是代表青天白日蠻地紅代表中華民國出訪我們沒有拒絕或是沒有不願意的理由"},{"start":315.899,"end":343.392,"text":"但這個部分我們國安局有沒有掌握是說那對岸有沒有可能會有什麼反制措施這我們會特別注意因為就國安局的權責來講法律的權責我們必須要提供現任總統安危的保護所以對於總統出訪的地點路線出現的場合以及會不會有當地中共僑團的動員那這部分我們都有在密切的做那我們有評估過嗎因為現在有可能蔡前總統他前往美國有沒有評估說對岸有可能也會有什麼樣的"},{"start":343.712,"end":364.077,"text":"美國這部分蔡前總統辦公室還沒有對外有說明有不適合做評論如果說有的話如果說真的成行國安局也會做評估不管現任總統要到哪個國家去我們大概都會做一個評估安全的評估因為這是我們的法律責任還是要保障我們的元首安全當然當然謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:18:56 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去年疫情結束 可是才剛結束 理論上應該發生在疫情當下 疫情結束 理論上應該經濟是復甦的吧尤其去年是疫情剛結束那一年 經濟應該是開始復甦吧沒有關係 不然我再請教下一個問題"},{"start":192.236,"end":213.829,"text":"111年,受僱員工全年薪資平均數是69.3萬,對不對?這主計總署的資料那你認為有多少比例的勞工薪資比69.3萬低?就是比這個所謂的勞工的朋友比這個平均數的數字低"},{"start":216.564,"end":242.48,"text":"我也告訴您啦是68.61所以換言之有近七成的勞工薪資是沒有達到平均我先這樣講我跟那個部長為什麼要問這個問題你應該知道我們最近這個物價的騰貴的問題是勞工朋友很在乎的嘛對不對像剛剛前吳宗憲委員也講到我們的臺灣的工時也是全世界這個排行非常赫赫有名的工時長嘛對不對"},{"start":243.681,"end":272.018,"text":"那你這樣物價騰貴工時超長又再薪資倒退我說真的這種勞工三苦齁身為勞動部部長我覺得你們的努力可能要再多加一把勁可以嗎我以為不過我們工時其實真的那個不是你跟我講現在我們工時並不長啊沒有沒有我們工時那是因為我們的全時的工時人數多啦部長你去你去跟你去跟我們勞工朋友交代一下如果你的你的所謂的"},{"start":272.638,"end":298.215,"text":"政府的首長經驗的觀感落差跟我們現在勞工朋友落差這麼大的話我覺得那就像你不太了解我們的勞動統計網的數字一樣我會有點擔心啦所以我跟你講就是說要多一點同理心那是解決問題的前提我想要問您下一個問題政府說要推動五年期的AI發展戰略計畫要砸多少錢五年要砸多少錢"},{"start":302.817,"end":318.794,"text":"190億元那當然AI不是現在開始做其實政府過去都有投入一定的預算那我想請教一下您知道勞動部過去針對職安有運用科技智慧的計畫是哪個計畫你知道嗎我們職安署嗎對對對"},{"start":320.879,"end":321.339,"text":"我請署長回答好嗎?"},{"start":338.164,"end":342.488,"text":"我講經費你看對不對啦,一億四千萬嘛,一億四千三百三十萬嘛"},{"start":355.057,"end":357.318,"text":"這個平台資料庫設計以來它是要來建置全國工作者職業安全衛生資料結果花了一億四千萬總共只收入到一成"},{"start":380.345,"end":380.505,"text":"拜託羅智強"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:16:58 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我跟委員報告這個是今年的4月這個美國總統跟這個日本的首相還有菲律賓的總統在美國他們討論出來要發展這個菲律賓北呂宋的這個部分那這個案子就是他叫做呂宋經濟狼帶這樣的一個議題"},{"start":88.355,"end":102.994,"text":"這我有兩個命題把它併在一起這個就是一個議題然後這個裡面有決定讓日本去做這個機場做軍港然後從馬尼拉要拉一條火車拉一條鐵軌拉到北呂宋"},{"start":106.462,"end":119.869,"text":"那麼在這個情況之下我們當然這個是日本美國跟菲律賓之間的協定因為我們是這個民主同盟所以有另外一組在民主同盟在討論討論在論壇說過去我們的綠色能源因為2050年這個"},{"start":127.613,"end":144.057,"text":"減碳這個要零碳的這樣的一個目標那希望說這個同盟的大家可以互相支援互相來support所以你這樣說就是說大家去討論到了另外一個命題就是減碳的議題所以蔡易餘討論到債費率並沒有"},{"start":146.804,"end":162.665,"text":"部長雖然說前幾個質詢大家都站在批判的角度但是我覺得這個是一個很大的如果我們先不要說經濟部的角度以現在如果有這樣的一個計畫這個以台灣的很多業者那是一個很大的事"},{"start":164.506,"end":173.691,"text":"很大的商機大家可以去那邊去投入不管是說好你說有些公共建設也好或者是投入綠電綠電也不只太陽能啊風電也是啊那台灣這幾年我們在做風電後我們在推動國產化事實上也有相對的一些成長跟經驗嘛這個全國這次尤其這個三奪爾還"},{"start":188.259,"end":189.18,"text":"還在台灣這個盤繞這麼久的時間我看我們的風電我看起來應該是都還好吧"},{"start":198.935,"end":214.25,"text":"跟委員報告我們的風電不管是陸域風電或者是這個海域的都還不錯都沒有看到有一些那個風損的部分沒有風損嘛台風天應該還創紀錄發電量還有創紀錄跟委員報告這個剛才在講的這個呂宋的這個計畫裡面我們可以看得出來我們從一些學者的研究"},{"start":224.3,"end":233.936,"text":"如果在呂壯那邊來蓋風電或者是蓋太陽能光電因為他地方夠大所以他的成本會往下降"},{"start":234.622,"end":248.093,"text":"那麼往下降我當然就是我們在學者討論阿在論壇上面討論我們都希望說我認為你委員齁你就是有一個比較超前阿就是說你要怎樣在那裡電郵回來台灣是最終那裡沒有電郵回來台灣有企業在那裡買就好還是說企業對阿人家企業人家企業要買電讓他們自己去發電對不對至少"},{"start":255.979,"end":264.245,"text":"我看到的是說你參加這樣一個論壇那這個論壇是現在民主同盟現在在呂宋的這個經濟狼帶的計畫台灣當然有機會我們參與嘛我們介紹我們台灣優良的廠商到這個呂宋那邊去投入他們的計畫"},{"start":273.111,"end":297.016,"text":"這個有什麼不對阿?是,謝謝委員對阿,對阿,我們就是台灣的企業全出世改阿這個部長我覺得你這個做事你去參加這個論壇,然後你有你的想法你故意就是說要電郵回來,主要讓人家跟你連結說這個是因為台灣我們的綠電不足,我們要補足我們的排碳係數阿所以才會有你去菲律賓設電廠我感覺是這個事情你讓人誤會,然後讓人連結起來"},{"start":302.857,"end":324.534,"text":"所以我覺得這件事部長你就對外解釋清楚可是你去參加了這樣的一個論壇那你看到了現在全世界要來投資整個呂宋的經濟狼帶包括能源選項也是一個很大的一個商機所以你覺得台灣這一步我們應該要帶我們的抽象去那邊去讓它走出去這樣怎麼會是不對的"},{"start":330.335,"end":346.792,"text":"謝謝委員希望增加台灣廠商的競爭力從國內不是只有考慮國內的市場應該要考慮國際的市場在上一次我們的經濟委員會的時候那台積電的這個劉德英董事長也在分享台積電成功的模式台積電一開始"},{"start":348.413,"end":348.753,"text":"蔡易餘委員"},{"start":370.137,"end":392.782,"text":"加強國際競爭力對你身為我們的部長經濟部長所以你除了要保護台灣我們的技術不要外流之外你就是應該要把台灣的產業然後跟世界可以有更多的對接是的我希望我們賴總統我們卓院長然後信任你然後讓你當任經濟部長也是希望借用你這樣的強才"},{"start":394.442,"end":396.903,"text":"我會繼續把這個論壇的範圍放大跟國內的學者專家"},{"start":416.01,"end":436.44,"text":"我們繼續討論 也許我們未必只能做第一人嘛 如果他們也要做機場他們機場有什麼 或者他們要拉他們的軌道到馬尼拉這個如果台灣有可以配合的廠商 也要讓他們有機會去加入啊沒有錯 沒有錯對啊 啊這麼大的一個 投資又是離台灣相對比較近的地方"},{"start":438.121,"end":463.982,"text":"對這個我覺得都是要去突破的謝謝委員讓台灣走到國際是然後第二個我想跟部長再討論一下就是說我們現在在台電台電公司因為他們有所謂排碳係數的一個壓力這個排碳係數的壓力就變成台電他事實上是沒有辦法去賣這個純綠電所以變得說台電的排碳係數始終是很高那這個也是台電"},{"start":465.063,"end":484.744,"text":"承擔了這麼多壓力然後包括台電現在阿愛阿愛需要一些特別預算的一些協助阿所以我現在意思是說你要怎麼部長你在任內你有什麼方向可以讓整個台電他的排蛋係數是下降的"},{"start":485.345,"end":502.206,"text":"阿或者是這樣的一個排碳係數可以藉由台電來賣綠電的方式然後來分散他的壓力這部分我們經濟部有什麼做法嗎我想台電他是這個樣子根據這個市場的需求大概企業比較希望這個低碳的企業"},{"start":503.047,"end":519.246,"text":"那我們大概在企業要低碳啊企業是低碳可是企業卻沒有自己去努力做好低碳的事情我們現在在幫助企業深度節能來降低他的這個排碳係數那一方面我們在發電的部分橋接用這個這個部長現在問題就是說"},{"start":522.389,"end":545.982,"text":"我們協助企業降低它的排碳係數但是它的排碳係數最後都跑回來台電由台電來吸收企業的排碳係數所以台電就有這樣這一層的負擔那這部分有可能我們用低碳的這個電力給它低碳就是我們用這個天然氣的發電來取代這個煤炭"},{"start":547.617,"end":573.373,"text":"天然氣取代煤炭是一個方式啦那當然綠電也是一個方式可是重點就是回到了台電就變成混在一起就變成灰電了嘛就不是所謂的綠電了所以你們台電在這部分你們沒有把你們的綠電跟你們台電自己其他火力發電齁把它做一個很清楚的一個區隔你們都是混在一起賣的所以對企業而言"},{"start":574.673,"end":599.729,"text":"對企業而言你的排碳係數還是在你台電這一端跟委員報告其實部長有跟我們指示如何把那個綠電用在最對的地方所以我們在規劃那個電力的產品在銷售的方面在考慮就是看電力分倉的概念做一些低碳電力賣給企業但是價格會高一點講到我們台電的工作我們現在嘉義這邊包括我們馬籌澳的"},{"start":606.933,"end":611.544,"text":"這個變電所馬酬厚以及我們康榮壽那邊變電所的工程"},{"start":614.294,"end":637.272,"text":"請這個進度一定要盯緊我們現在在加速應該是如期完成包括因為我知道說現在我們在沿海的電纜線的一個推動事實上也是有遇到一些阻力不過我覺得台電應該要拿出更大的誠意跟鄉親溝通然後我們可以當然我站在外面我也是要協助你們去溝通不過我想"},{"start":637.432,"end":637.792,"text":"好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:11:44 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12:22:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155588","gazette":{"lineno":957,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時11分）我們是不是有請部長以及台電公司？"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，今天大家都在討論這個菲律賓呂宋的經濟計畫，你早上的說法是說，因為這是一個論壇嘛！全世界這些民主國家大家來針對呂宋的經濟廊道計畫。部長，我的質詢會給你比較多的時間回答，這樣的經濟廊道計畫主要是針對哪些公共建設或者是哪些經濟發展，你可以完整地說明一下嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我跟委員報告，今年4月美國總統、日本首相及菲律賓總統在美國，他們討論出來要發展菲律賓北呂宋這個部分，這個案子叫做「呂宋經濟廊帶」這樣的一個議題。我有兩個命題把它併在一起，這個就是一個議題。這裡面有決定讓日本去做機場、做軍港，然後從馬尼拉拉一條火車鐵軌到北呂宋。在這個情況之下，當然這個是日本、美國及菲律賓之間的協定，因為我們是民主同盟，所以有另外一組民主同盟在討論，在論壇就說我們這個綠色能源，因為2050年要減碳、零碳的目標，希望同盟的大家可以互相支援，互相來support……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長是說，大家討論到另外一個命題，就是減碳的議題。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以才有討論到在菲律賓。部長，雖然前幾個質詢大家都站在批判的角度，但是我覺得這是一個很大的商機，我們先不要說經濟部的角度，現在如果有這樣的一個計畫，對臺灣的很多業者來說，那是一個很大的商機耶！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：大家可以去那邊投入，你說有一些公共建設也好，或者是投入綠電，綠電也不只太陽能，風電也是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：臺灣這幾年在做風電之後，我們在推動國產化，事實上也有相對的一些成長與經驗嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：就像這兩次颱風，尤其山陀兒還在臺灣盤繞這麼久的時間，我們那些風電看起來應該都還好吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，我們的風電不管是陸域風電或者是海域的，都還不錯，都沒有看到有一些風損的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有風損嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：颱風天應該還創紀錄啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：發電量還有創紀錄嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。我跟委員報告，剛才在講的呂宋這個計畫裡面，我們可以看得出來啦！從一些學者的研究，如果在呂宋那邊蓋風電或者是蓋太陽能光電，因為它的地方夠大，所以成本會往下降，成本往下降，當然我們和學者在論壇上面討論，我們都希望臺灣……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得你唯一一個比較超前的，就是你要怎麼把那些電拉回來臺灣，實際上它如果沒有拉回來臺灣，有企業要在那裡買，就讓它去買好了。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我是買電就可以，還是說企業在那裡……"],["蔡委員易餘：那些企業要買電，讓他們自己去發展，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：至少我看到的是說，你參加這樣的論壇，這個論壇說到民主同盟現在在呂宋的一個經濟廊帶計畫，臺灣當然有機會就參與嘛！我們介紹臺灣優良的廠商到呂宋那邊去投入他們的計畫，這個有什麼不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：對不對？我們就把臺灣的企業帶到世界去啊！部長，我覺得你在做事，你去參加這個論壇，然後你有你的想法，你唯一就是說要把電拉回來，結果被人家連結說這是因為臺灣的綠電不足，我們要補足排碳係數，所以才會去菲律賓設電廠。我覺得你是這件事情讓人家誤會，才會被連結起來，部長，我這麼說你聽得下去嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我覺得這件事部長就對外解釋清楚。可是你去參加這樣的論壇，然後你看到現在全世界要來投資整個呂宋的經濟廊帶，包括能源選項也是一個很大的商機，所以你覺得臺灣這一步應該要帶我們的廠商去那裡，要走出去，這樣哪有什麼不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，我希望增加臺灣廠商的競爭力啦！不是只有考慮國內的市場，應該也要考慮國際的市場。在上一次我們的經濟委員會的時候，台積電的劉德音董事長也在分享台積電成功的模式，台積電一開始看的就是全球的市場，而不只是看臺灣的市場，所以今天台積電可以睥睨全世界，可以在世界成為我們臺灣的護國神山，主要它的定位就是台積電是服務全球的市場，所以我也希望臺灣的企業不是只有國內這個市場，而幫助他們加強國際競爭力。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你身為我們的經濟部長，你除了要保護臺灣的技術不要外流之外，你應該讓臺灣的產業跟世界可以有更多的對接……"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想我們賴總統、卓院長信任你，讓你擔任經濟部長，也是希望借用你這樣的長才。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我是覺得這件事情你有說明，事實上我覺得呂宋論壇的這個經濟計畫如果真的好，你也是要介紹給廠商，讓他們去走。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我現在在國內會繼續把這個論壇的範圍放大，跟國內的學者專家繼續討論，然後我剛才有答應委員6個月要提出一個計畫……"],["蔡委員易餘：也許我們未必只能做綠能嘛！如果他們要做機場，他們機場有什麼，或者是他們要拉軌道到馬尼拉，如果臺灣有可以配合的廠商，也是要讓他們有機會去加入啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！這麼大的一個投資，又是離臺灣相對比較近的地方，我覺得這個都是要去突破的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：讓臺灣走到國際。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，我想跟部長再討論一下，現在台電公司因為有排碳係數的壓力，這個排碳係數的壓力就會導致台電事實上沒有辦法去賣純綠電，所以台電的排碳係數始終是很高，台電承擔了這麼多壓力，包括台電現在也需要一些特別預算的協助。我的意思是說，部長在任內有什麼方向可以讓台電的整個排碳係數是下降的，或者是這樣的排碳係數可以藉由台電來賣綠電的方式，然後來分散它的壓力。這個部分我們經濟部有什麼做法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想台電它是這個樣子，根據市場的需求，大概企業比較希望是低碳的，那我們大概在……"],["蔡委員易餘：企業要低碳啊！企業是要低碳，可是企業卻沒有自己去努力做好低碳的事情嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在在幫助企業……"],["蔡委員易餘：你要怎麼……"],["郭部長智輝：ESCO深度節能來降低它的排碳係數，然後一方面我們在發電的部分橋接，用這個……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，現在的問題就是說我們協助企業降低它的排碳係數，但是它的排碳係數最後都跑回來台電，由台電來吸收企業的排碳係數，所以台電就會有這一層負擔。那這部分有可能透過……"],["郭部長智輝：我們用低碳的電力給它，就是我們用天然氣的發電來取代煤炭的，用這個方法快速……"],["蔡委員易餘：天然氣取代煤炭是一個方式啦！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然綠電也是一個方式。"],["郭部長智輝：是，風能……"],["蔡委員易餘：可是重點是回到台電就會變成混在一起，就變成灰電了嘛！就不是所謂的綠電了。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們就是努力在這些上面來加強。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以台電在這部分，你們沒有把你們的綠電跟其他火力發電做一個很清楚的區隔，你們都是混在一起賣的，所以對企業而言，你的排碳係數還是在你台電這一端啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，其實部長有跟我們指示啦！如何把綠電用在最對的地方，所以我們規劃電力產品，在銷售方面考慮……"],["郭部長智輝：會分艙。"],["王總經理耀庭：會分艙，電力分艙的概念，有做一些低碳電力賣給企業，但是價格會高一點。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，因為有說到台電的工作，所以提到我們現在嘉義這邊，包括馬稠後這一個變電所，以及我們槺榔那邊變電所的工程，這個進度請一定要盯緊，不要讓它去……"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在在加速……"],["蔡委員易餘：那個要加速。"],["郭部長智輝：應該是如期完成啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道現在我們在沿海那些電纜線的推動事實上也是有遇到一些阻力，不過覺得台電應該要拿出更大的誠意跟鄉親溝通。站在我的立場，我也是在協助你們去溝通，不過我想台電把誠意拿出來，鄉親應該是可以接受台電的一些配套措施，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在休息到1點繼續開會。","休息（12時22分）","繼續開會（13時）"],["主席：繼續開會。","現在請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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國安會會診各部會的意見"},{"start":230.239,"end":249.769,"text":"其實委員你相當關心這個議題啦行政院的部分你也有跟他們講過所以我想行政院的態度應該會朝向正面我們希望他們朝向正面但目前程序上是還沒有走過沒錯我是希望說你們有沒有一個期限就是說大概哪時候可以行政院這方面大概哪時候可以通過這60億的多了這60億來蓋地下停車場"},{"start":253.05,"end":254.572,"text":"臺灣有地下停車場需求"},{"start":271.027,"end":271.227,"text":"李坤城"},{"start":293.338,"end":318.55,"text":"各位報告其實我們大概這個跟行政院報61億是因為說其實全國各縣市的需要中央補助的這個經費我們大概有概估了那停車場的補助基本上其實是扣掉了自償率因為停車場將來會有收費收入扣掉自償率以後依各縣市政府的財力等級去這一個補助我們現在其實也並沒有一個兩億元上限的一個選擇他其實有一定的公式"},{"start":320.231,"end":320.952,"text":"五華國小應該確定會補助了嗎?"},{"start":350.573,"end":370.991,"text":"五華國小,我們預算下來才能很有把握的跟委員講,但是委員已經交辦很多次了,你認為這個是目前三重最重要的,那我們積極來推動。五華國小,報告委員,那個局長說五華國小在上次已經通過了,所以這個部分沒有問題。那新谷國小,新谷國小已經在蓋了。"},{"start":371.811,"end":371.991,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:12:36 - 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委員好部長在執行之前必須為我們的這個公路局還有這個台鐵的效率表示讚賞本期在禮拜一在委員會執行這個南迴災害的時候今天就派員到現場窺看大陣仗的去看那民眾感受非常的強烈就是說今天要好這個要讚賞不過這邊好像本期辦公室都沒有收到通知這個部分是不是"},{"start":42.438,"end":64.406,"text":"有,其實我也會要求我們的各局署,未來所有的會刊在地方的時候,因為都跟區域的立委都相當的有關,都應該要通知,這個一定要做。謝謝,因為早上還有打電話去臺東服務處罵人,那個,我都一直以為我們,這麼重要的事情怎麼可以不到,我以為是我們員工沒有到,那這以後部分要拜託部長跟相關單位。好,我們會要求,我們會要求,一定要,一定要。好,感謝,沒問題,沒問題齁。"},{"start":65.706,"end":67.368,"text":"臺東未來鐵公路中斷時要力拼三個小時,整個花東輸入計畫的SOP具體是什麼?"},{"start":86.09,"end":112.01,"text":"具體的如果您要文字內容我們可以提供給委員但是我們是希望三個小時之內例如說如果是蘇花的那一段中段的時候我們趕快啟動南回就是臺東的部分南回的不管是公路運輸也好或者鐵道運輸在上上一次的這個中段的過程當中我們就馬上來啟動那啟動他的火車不只是到運送到西部我們還會拜託高鐵配合配合台鐵的班次到達之後怎麼樣在"},{"start":112.691,"end":112.711,"text":"黃建賓"},{"start":136.437,"end":165.242,"text":"那未來如果發生陸運的狀況的時候部長非常好陸海工都考慮到了非常的完善不過部長其實在這一次山坡和颱風的時候你的SOP完全沒有效果就是在上個禮拜而已是因為你連任的豪宇整個南迴你講到南迴部分南迴公路第一個它預防性的封路就是新香港到大武這一段整個封路陸運公路不行然後台鐵部分因為大水沖刷火車不行"},{"start":165.862,"end":165.882,"text":"黃建賓議員"},{"start":183.393,"end":201,"text":"我們其實臺東仰賴就是鐵公路我們臺東才會發那個飛機像本席有遇到飛機飛到臺東的上空用原路折返然後本席必須再到臺北坐高鐵到高雄如果晚上沒車要請人到高雄接駁到臺東這個是臺東目前"},{"start":203.277,"end":203.678,"text":"臺風是比較特殊的狀況"},{"start":222.76,"end":245.043,"text":"對,但是實際上,委員,颱風正在走的那個過程當中,任何SOP都沒有用,而且當時是全國在放假的狀況底下,我不可能恢復空運跟海運,這是必然的。那另一個部分,跟委員報告,其實我們的南回公路它的強度算是蠻強的,抗災強度蠻強,所以在當時您的狀況是還有辦法走公路回到台東。"},{"start":245.543,"end":269.266,"text":"部長我是在颱風前回去是在颱風的時候跟委員報告有些時間是停的部長針對這一個部分未來運營也希望兩週內會將SOP送到本席辦公室好不好接下來我們要跟討論就是公路的部分就是台九縣關於我們交通部支持台九縣的關於本席非常的感謝真的很感謝因為"},{"start":270.647,"end":272.25,"text":"民眾對道路的拓寬一直有爭議"},{"start":281.653,"end":309.746,"text":"這台九線的拓寬上面這個是不是請舉證好不好跟各位報告我了解因為道路的拓寬會涉及到就是說房屋的拆遷那大概就是說這個在台東有一些路段的部分大概民眾還是希望就是說這個寬度不要那麼寬然後可以減少拆遷那這個部分我想我們當然也有在做相關的溝通只是說因為整段的台九線從花蓮到台東"},{"start":311.427,"end":338.548,"text":"確實當初的一個規劃設計是從30米寬度來做相關的規劃還是要聽取地方的意見因為其實我這邊補充一下當時我們的目前我們現在的總統賴清德總統在當時當行政院議長的時候推動了地方創生地方創生的精神是什麼適地適用那我們講到的這個比如月美瑞豐這些地段它是長期形成的一個聚落那因為你為了要拖延"},{"start":339.542,"end":363.271,"text":"民眾都支持拓寬你一次要拉到30公尺他整個地形地方完全改變這是影響到民生的問題這部分我們北協要代表當地的居民來跟部裡面這邊來反映我想現在很強調我們公共的治理是公民參與這件事情那不是過去由上而下應該是聽取地方的意見來做這樣的調整那這部分是不是"},{"start":363.911,"end":364.031,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:05:57 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酒駕的累犯確實是應該要再更加重要立竿見影 要趕快把它做好去年已經有加重過一次那另外您剛剛在垂詢的這個有關於這個假車牌的部分這個加重刑責的那個罰則的部分我們大概在三個月之內可以完成我是認為越快越好那個要是能夠盡快也是功德一件是是是"},{"start":260.596,"end":275.484,"text":"國際旅客來臺今年1月剛破500萬人次今年1月到現在但是今年本來有差不多1000萬的目標恐怕難以達成今年出國的人數已經突破1000萬了"},{"start":277.225,"end":284.89,"text":"那交通部公關署在2021年公布臺灣觀光邁向2025的方案報告預估2025年來臺旅客可達到1186萬之間就是明年那請問陳部長2025年國際來臺觀光人數是否會重新設定目標多少如果這個不計算大陸觀光客來臺國際來臺觀光的人數目標交通部大概你們會設定多少"},{"start":307.725,"end":336.648,"text":"報告委員我們今年所看到到目前為止的數字就很接近您剛剛所說的不加計對岸來台的大概就是這個數字那到年底我們的目標當然還是1000萬但是或許不容易達到那我們會看到時候達到的狀況到什麼地方那我跟委員報告如果要說明年明年我們會比較務實一點不要去加計原本對岸會來台的期望這個部分我們期望只可能放低一點因為虛的我認為"},{"start":337.208,"end":337.989,"text":"林德福議員"},{"start":353.928,"end":374.154,"text":"最後一個議題因為機場服務會可以強化整個機場的建設與淘機公司財務的體質那機場服務會半數收入都同時也投入觀光發展基金那媒體報導這個桃園機場公司將評估檢討收費對此交通部是不是會考慮在2025年調漲機場的一個服務費"},{"start":379.916,"end":402.732,"text":"報告委員機場的服務費目前是500塊那確實我們因為第三航廈正在蓋而且我們的第三跑道也正要努力來蓋的過程當中對於這個淘機來講他們的這個財務的狀況確實是負擔相當相當重所以社會上有這樣子的討論而且大家有討論到說相當的多人在使用這個機場那出國的人數也不少"},{"start":403.672,"end":418.516,"text":"我們希望臺灣的觀光能夠做得更好因為過去的機場服務會像委員您剛剛所說的有一部分的經費其實是來益助在臺灣的觀光業的發展那這個部分對臺灣觀光業也很重要那所以目前確實是社會上有這樣的討論那我想淘機也針對他們自己的財務的狀況也應該有做類似這樣的評論"},{"start":424.158,"end":450.187,"text":"因為你能夠出國其實加個幾百塊我認為大體多數人會支持那你服務做得更落實更好而且講實在話我們很多觀光地區需要加強為什麼因為很多人來過以後認為說也沒有說提升也沒有改善我認為這一方面部長你跟觀光署這邊去要求然後把淘氣加一些然後"},{"start":451.087,"end":451.247,"text":"謝謝陳部長 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請主席邀請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":14.918,"end":18.74,"text":"交通建設會關係地方經濟產業的發展,也關係民眾鄉親的生活品質,交通的便利性。張化縣在東南角,田中二水區塊,在過去交通"},{"start":38.943,"end":57.684,"text":"路線就是比較不完善比較欠缺交通建設所以在這邊首先也要感謝交通部在106年11月17號的時候就合訂了東張道路藍岩段工程納入生活圈的道路計畫裡面然後也確定了補助的經費"},{"start":60.646,"end":76.959,"text":"當時合併的時候106年是衛民股縣長任內經過了也6年多的時間目前東張道路藍岩段本來它的時程是預計今年10月要完工那看起來應該是會在過年左右就是農曆過年前"},{"start":78.28,"end":78.4,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":98.539,"end":99.92,"text":"張嬅、雲林南投交通生活圈"},{"start":114.665,"end":114.825,"text":"：陳素月"},{"start":133.999,"end":153.191,"text":"那很明確的就是在2020年11月9號當時的林交通部長那時候我們有下去考察那當然就是說當時的交通部也是支持說未來規劃能夠來銜接國道3號就是要用橋樑的方式可是這個路線當時應該還沒有很明確"},{"start":155.612,"end":171.589,"text":"在2022年10月26號當時王國才部長任內我們也有再次的去二水做考察那時候當然初步有一個方案就是張嵐大橋的一個方案"},{"start":172.25,"end":192.951,"text":"可是這個方案當時我們對於彰化縣的鄉親的角度來說他們是希望能夠就這個章雲大橋的這個路線然後去銜接林內交流道這樣子可以讓我們上二水的鄉親更便利然後在工程的這個經費上也是可以"},{"start":193.351,"end":197.055,"text":"當時我們是有明確的一個決議就是說我們就是希望能夠針對章雲大橋這個路線去銜接雲林線的林內交流道這樣子一個方案那當時我們的決議也是建請地方政府去做可行性評估"},{"start":220.518,"end":232.514,"text":"委員會考察之後,我們也看到了雲林縣的張縣長還有張化的王縣長都支持,所以他們兩位縣長也大張旗鼓地開了記者會"},{"start":234.296,"end":236.277,"text":"張嬅與雲林的生活圈更緊密,讓交通更便利。這是站在張嬅縣鄉親的角度。"},{"start":257.006,"end":257.647,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":277.845,"end":277.865,"text":"張嬅大橋"},{"start":303.064,"end":315.724,"text":"張宇大橋張宇目前應該是雲林那邊還在他們可以來申請做可行性研究他們在做正在做可行性研究那這個部分還在等待他們送過來目前是還沒有送過來"},{"start":316.627,"end":317.588,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":332.321,"end":332.361,"text":"執行委員"},{"start":349.364,"end":364.772,"text":"是這個我們都支持但是齁一個是張雲的部分我們在等待雲林縣政府他們的可行性研究的部分那另外張南大橋的部分我們也同意要補助他的這個可行性研究的這個經費那我們也要等待這個南投縣政府那邊提提上來給我們"},{"start":365.797,"end":388.499,"text":"是好那現在就是說有關這個章雲大橋偵測理內交流道這樣子的一個地方期盼的一個交通建設目前程序就是在地方政府還在還沒有提出可行性研究的委員關心了很久這個部分他們也正在做可行性研究我們就等待他做可行性研究跟評估出來之後我們再來做討論"},{"start":389.019,"end":408.792,"text":"是,那我們可以請交通部也主動關心一下嗎?沒有問題,我們就請高工局直接去跟雲林縣政府去督促一下,或者是去了解一下他的進度做到哪裡了。是,好,希望就是說我們這樣子的地方,鄉親的一個期盼,能夠看到這個進度。是,是,好。"},{"start":409.252,"end":430.553,"text":"那接下來本席也來關心一下這個假車牌的狀況因為我們也看到就是說這個國內假車牌真的是非常的猖獗而且他這個件數是有持續增加的這樣子的一個趨勢那不曉得說部長有去了解過說為什麼會有這樣子的一個趨勢"},{"start":432.75,"end":452.302,"text":"一方面他可能購買的方面比較容易啦網路上其實只要上網去買在過去很容易就買得到這是個問題那另外就是說很像是被調扣車牌的人註銷車牌的人不少那被註銷他又想要用那台車他就會上網去買這個假車牌來使用"},{"start":455.47,"end":469.407,"text":"假車牌的猖獗對於地方基層的警力他們的執法壓力也非常的大因為我們看到最近10月15號才又發生了一件假車牌車輛拒檢逃逸而且在"},{"start":470.287,"end":470.908,"text":"在這個部分我們是不是有更積極的防偽的作為?"},{"start":492.763,"end":497.987,"text":"車牌防偽的機制功能有設計多道的功能,包括明年度加強相關的防偽功能"},{"start":513.287,"end":514.668,"text":"車牌是屬於汽車所有人的處罰"},{"start":533.248,"end":557.022,"text":"是 那我們有可能就是說改由從人不從車的這種角度嗎這個目前包括因為假車牌的部分的話它涉及違反這個行政法的道路交通管理處罰條例還有刑法的部分那包括這一個法務部跟這個交通部其實我們都有在研議就是說整個要怎麼樣加重處罰包括就是說也有提到就是說可能要做相關的一個末路車輛的一個研議"},{"start":559.959,"end":567.015,"text":"請我們交通部針對這種狀況在做妥善的一個研議然後遏止這樣子的犯罪行為"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:02 - 11:57:33","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155583","gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時48分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳委員素月：部長早安！"],["陳部長世凱：召委好。"],["陳委員素月：我們知道交通建設關係著地方的經濟產業發展，也更關係著民眾，也就是鄉親的生活品質及交通的便利性。我們看彰化縣在東南角，也就是田中、二水這個區塊，在過去交通路線比較不完善，比較欠缺交通建設。在這邊首先要感謝交通部，在106年11月17號就核定了東彰道路南延段工程，納入生活圈的道路計畫裡面，有確定了補助的經費。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：當時核定是106年魏明谷縣長任內，也經過6年多的時間了。本來東彰道路南延段的時程是預計今年10月要完工，現在看起來應該是會在過年左右，就是農曆過年前應該是可以完工通車的。"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["陳委員素月：所以在東彰道路南延段新闢工程規劃定案之後，二水、田中這邊的鄉親就一直在關心，希望東彰道路南延段未來完成到二水的時候，從二水可以再銜接到國道3號，讓二水鄉親的交通便利性更完善，這個也關係了整個彰化、雲林、南投生活圈的道路到底要怎樣能夠更完善。有關彰化縣到底要怎樣去銜接國道3號。因為這幾年來地方鄉親的關心，我們立法院交通委員會也邀請了部長下鄉去考察，那很明確的就是在2020年11月9號，當時的林佳龍部長有跟我們下去考察，當然當時交通部也是支持未來的規劃能夠來銜接國道3號，就是要用橋梁的方式，可是這個路線當時應該還沒有很明確。在2022年10月26號，當時在王國材部長任內，我們也再次去二水考察，那時候初步有一個方案，就是彰南大橋的方案，可是這個方案，以彰化縣鄉親的角度來說，他們希望能夠就彰雲大橋的路線，然後去銜接林內交流道，這樣子可以讓二水的鄉親更便利，然後工程的經費上也可以比較節省。所以交通委員會在111年10月26號這次的考察時是有明確的決議，就是希望能夠針對彰雲大橋這個路線去銜接雲林縣林內交流道這樣的方案，當時我們的決議也是建請地方政府去做可行性評估。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯，現在在過程當中。"],["陳委員素月：在交通委員會考察之後，我們也看到雲林縣的張縣長、還有彰化的王縣長都表示支持，所以兩位縣長也大張旗鼓地開了記者會對外宣示，然後他們也簽了意向書，這個都是有紀錄的。他們也主張要共同推動國道3號增設林內交流道，讓彰化跟雲林的生活圈能夠更緊密，讓我們的交通更便利，當然這個是站在彰化縣鄉親的角度來看待這樣一個建設的規劃。","我們最近看到南投縣政府也很積極在爭取，就是希望彰南大橋的興建能夠銜接南雲交流道，目前我們也看到他們有一些進度了，所以彰化的鄉親、二水鄉親當然也是非常的焦急，他們擔心之前的那個決議是失效了嗎？還是後續會怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：彰南大橋的部分嗎？還是彰雲？"],["陳委員素月：彰雲大橋。"],["陳部長世凱：彰雲目前應該是雲林那邊還在……他們可以來申請做可行性研究，目前他們也正在做，這個部分還在等待他們送過來，目前是還沒有送過來。"],["陳委員素月：是，地方這樣的發展可以讓生活圈更緊密，對於南投縣政府還有地方民意代表爭取彰南大橋銜接南雲交流道，我們都支持，也都樂觀其成。二水鄉親更期盼的是，更便利、距離更近的彰雲大橋銜接林內交流道的建設規劃，部長是不是可以支持？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我們都支持，但是彰雲的部分，我們還在等待雲林縣政府的可行性研究；那另外彰南大橋的部分，我們也同意要補助其可行性研究的經費，但我們也要等待南投縣政府提上來給我們。"],["陳委員素月：好，有關彰雲大橋增設林內交流道這樣一個地方期盼的交通建設，目前的程序是地方政府還沒有提出可行性研究的申請？"],["陳部長世凱：對。委員關心了很久，這個部分他們也正在做可行性研究，我們就等待它做可行性研究跟評估出來之後再來討論。"],["陳委員素月：是，那我們可以請交通部也主動關心一下嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，我們就請高公局直接跟雲林縣政府督促一下或者了解一下它的進度做到哪裡了。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們地方鄉親期盼能夠看到進度。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：那接下來本席也來關心一下假車牌的狀況，因為我們看到國內假車牌真的是非常猖獗，而且這個件數有持續增加的趨勢，不曉得部長有沒有去瞭解過為什麼會有這樣子的趨勢？"],["陳部長世凱：一方面可能購買比較容易，其實只要上網去買，在過去很容易就買得到，這是一個問題。另外，像是被吊扣車牌的人、被註銷車牌的人不少，被註銷之後他又想要用那台車，就會上網去買這個假車牌來使用。"],["陳委員素月：因為假車牌的猖獗造成地方基層警力的執法壓力也非常的大，我們看到最近10月15號才又發生了一件假車牌車輛拒檢逃逸，而且在道路上飛車追逐的狀況，警方或者是路過的駕駛可能也會被波及而有安全的問題，所以我們也希望你們在防偽能有一些積極作為。"],["陳部長世凱：防偽的部分嗎？"],["陳委員素月：是。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟各位委員報告，關於車牌防偽相關的一些機制、功能，其實我們有設計多道的防偽功能，這個部分在明年度我們也會再加強相關的一些防偽功能。"],["陳委員素月：好，因為目前像這種假車牌或者是民眾駕駛違規的部分，我們在舉發的時候都是針對車子而沒有針對駕駛人嘛？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，因為這個是針對汽車所有人的處罰。"],["陳委員素月：是，那我們有可能改由從人不從車的這種角度嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前因為假車牌部分涉及違反行政罰的道路交通管理處罰條例、還有刑罰的部分，包括法務部跟交通部在內，其實我們都有在研議，看整個要怎麼樣加重處罰，包括也有提到可能要研議沒入車輛的一個。"],["陳委員素月：是，請交通部針對這種狀況再妥善研議，進而遏止這樣子的犯罪行為。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員素月）：接下來邀請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:09:58","end_time":"2024-10-16T11:47:41+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155582","委員名稱":"徐富癸","duration":598,"start_time":"2024-10-16T11:37:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df697710b27f1cbaf29eaa7101df8a25548c1766e2bcab8f8c7f5a269d54d767ffee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.076593750000001,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.341593750000001,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.344718750000002,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.090968750000002,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.777843750000002,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.384093750000005,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.06159375,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.946593750000005,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":120.36659375,"end":120.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.67846875000001,"end":122.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.17596875000001,"end":135.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.94284375,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.57971875,"end":146.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":146.65784375,"end":154.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.02846875,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.58909375000002,"end":155.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.85471875000002,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.70659375,"end":170.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.10971875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因為我知道像我們林邊就設了一個固定式的一個抗災專用的基地台就發揮了很大的一個效果所以我們也可以找幾個地方抗災的基地台可能拜託中華電信努力看看那其實實際的調度我們到時候的這個災防應變中心其實他們會來做實際上的調度我相信這一次的災情他們也有調度到一些"},{"start":146.735,"end":149.237,"text":"委員跟你報告一下對於颱風的災情我們事實上都有掌握另外我們有緊急變中心所以知道颱風從哪個地方進來我們的行動"},{"start":171.218,"end":171.738,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":189.087,"end":210.762,"text":"備援系統很重要,停電的時候不要說30分鐘一小時就基地台就倒了我們現在有在偏鄉在強化我們基地台縱使停電我們可以撐4小時6小時至少在一緊急的時候我們可以那另外我們的全省的這個行動車大概有20多部所以會依照哪個地區有狀況我們會把車先開到附近來支援這個救災"},{"start":216.766,"end":217.166,"text":"高鐵南岩不是夢"},{"start":239.06,"end":261.84,"text":"好,感謝委員這麼的關心,其實長期您都在努力,包含我們的鄒村敏縣長,那這個部份交通部也有設定了,我們在今年底之前,我們會設定好我們所選擇的路線,在今年底會公佈路線,那公佈路線完之後,我們就會實際下去進行準備高鐵藍爺的整個該做的作業,我們都會來進行,這個部份沒有問題。"},{"start":263.161,"end":263.322,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":279.404,"end":303.83,"text":"因為您都很關心而且您有特別有跟我提到這件事那我們希望在今年底之前或者是到明年能夠讓這個六塊錯的車站包含台鐵的這個高架立體化的部分可以趕快來進行因為我有到現場去看過跟楊局長一起到現場去看過周圍的這個都市計畫的部分跟土地的開發的部分其實屏東縣政府相當的努力"},{"start":304.21,"end":305.35,"text":"明年中可以讓大家看到比較具體的進度"},{"start":323.277,"end":344.24,"text":"好那這邊再拜託部長除了加快這樣子一個啟程之外,未來針對延伸到操作這一部分,我想也是我們要努力的方向啦吼。對於我們未來西部的整個高鐵的發展,我想是一個正面的一個,包括委員我們一步一步來啦吼,但是"},{"start":344.54,"end":371.493,"text":"你上次跟我講完之後我們有特別溝通我們會留違軌目前高鐵延伸到屏東的部分那我們還會留一個違軌讓它未來有再延伸的可能性這個部分我們會預留著我們一步一步來努力另外就針對屏南快速大陸還有高捷這個我們小港線到林邊這個案子我想本席也持續都有在追蹤那部長這部分是不是到目前為止有沒有照相關的期程在進行"},{"start":372.073,"end":372.613,"text":"平南快速道路我請局長說一下"},{"start":395.165,"end":410.694,"text":"平南快速公路行政院在今年4月合併可言所以我們已經展開綜合規劃了綜合規劃在9月份的時候我們已經辦了這個起初的一個報告那起初報告綜合規劃完成了因為現在我們的作業綜合規劃跟環評我們會並行"},{"start":413.235,"end":442.183,"text":"中和規劃到期中預計在明年的這個3月份我們大概會完成這個期中的一個報告那期中報告在明年年中大概我們期中報告定案以後這個路線比較清楚我們會進行環境影響評估的第一階段的還縮書的作業那所以大概我們會因為他是要二階環評的所以會員報告就是中規跟環評我們會同時啟動只是說有一些部分的話可以重疊的這個期程我們會加速"},{"start":442.563,"end":460.053,"text":"在這邊還是要請部長跟局長託幫忙因為之前我們4月份陳建元院長宣布的時候我們有聽到兩年要斷崗120年要完工這個期程真的要掌握一下這是我們平台平台的一個救命路真的要拜託一下我們來努力加速"},{"start":460.933,"end":482.015,"text":"那針對我們整個橫沖半島觀光產業我想最近的一些的包含消費包含美化路被倒入一些污名化的事情那我想對觀光業的衝擊相當的大那尤其我們屏東有兩個機場我覺得屏東的機場還有一個武力艇機場這個都沒辦法做一個航空的一個推廣我想"},{"start":482.415,"end":482.435,"text":"請署長"},{"start":504.797,"end":521.332,"text":"謝謝委員指導因為墾丁算是我們國家一個非常重要的景區那這個部分我們已經跟這個墾丁國家公園還有這個我們的屏東縣政府一起來做這個秩序的整理那麼再把亮點再點亮"},{"start":524.955,"end":542.068,"text":"橫村以南平南地區觀光廊帶有幾個跟地方觀光圈做一些串接我們也會善用明年是正好橫村古城150周年這個活動我們用活動來帶動"},{"start":544.069,"end":566.69,"text":"我們也希望能夠多留宿所以這邊的民宿的部分我們也特別會來加強以上簡單跟委員報告下我們在大鵬灣也是會做結合我想今年我們臺南建成400年我知道交通部跟觀光署也大力支持明年我們恆春建成150週年我想這個是一個很重要的歷史事件"},{"start":567.17,"end":567.33,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":584.509,"end":597.988,"text":"我們也是希望能夠針對這個整個恆春半島做一個深度的一個規劃做一個文化的一個體驗讓我們全國讓國際的遊客到墾丁來消費到恆春半島來觀光謝謝好我們來努力謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:37:43 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11:47:41","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155582","gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時37分）謝謝主席，我們有請交通部陳部長、中華電信簡董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、請中華電信簡董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這次接連兩個颱風，我們有發現一個很嚴重的問題，當然這個業務可能會比較涉及到NCC……"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：不過，我想交通部有中華電信，也要特別請部長跟董事長來幫忙。我們發現這次因為颱風造成電力中斷，因此對我們很多鄉鎮的通訊系統造成很大的影響，行動電話不通，LINE也不通，結果造成指揮中心沒辦法調度救災跟通報的系統，所以是不是應該在各鄉鎮公所，甚至附近、鄰近，設置抗災的通訊基地台？甚至請中華電信調度行動基地的指揮車到災區來協助？部長是不是可以幫忙溝通這個事情？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，雖然這個是跟NCC和數發部比較有關係的業務，確實我們有中華電信可以來協助，但是這個部分我會建議未來是不是透過氣象的預報，大概知道災區在哪裡？因為行動基地台不可能購置太多，我們會儘量來努力。未來可能我們會希望中華電信能夠看氣象的狀況，我們知道這一次的災情，尤其是山陀兒颱風，在高雄跟屏東我們有預先看到那邊可能會有很嚴重的災情的時候，這個部分可能就是要行動的基地台。我們看要怎麼先處理這塊，就趕快來處理。先預做準備啦！委員在提醒的應該是預做準備的部分……"],["徐委員富癸：對。"],["陳部長世凱：我們應該要先做。如果災情在別的地方，我們其他地方也要先做。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為我知道像林邊就有設了一個固定式的抗災專用基地台，就發揮了很大的效果，所以我們也可以找幾個定點部分……"],["陳部長世凱：抗災的基地台可能拜託中華電信努力看看，到時候的災防應變中心會來做實際上的調度，我相信這一次的災情他們也有調度到一些。"],["徐委員富癸：對，我自己在東港的服務處就是整個通訊都不通，所以這真的是一個很大的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。要不要邀簡董也報告一下？"],["徐委員富癸：好，這個就麻煩董事長來說明一下。"],["簡董事長志誠：跟委員報告，對於颱風的災情，我們事實上都有掌握。我們有緊急應變中心，所以知道颱風從哪個地方進來，我們的行動衛星基地台車一定會準備好，救災的時候我們一定會趕快到。另外，委員所關心的基地台的問題，我想基地台受電的影響非常大，所以現在對於比較偏鄉的基地台，我們特別有強化它的電池……"],["徐委員富癸：因為備援系統很重要，一定要有備援。"],["簡董事長志誠：對，停電的時候不要說30分鐘、1小時基地台就倒了，我們現在有在偏鄉強化。基地台縱使停電，可以撐4小時、6小時，至少在緊急的時候我們可以協助。另外，全省的行動車大概有20多部，所以會依照哪個地區有狀況，把車先開到附近來支援救災。"],["徐委員富癸：好，這個再拜託董事長能夠強化這樣的防災韌性。另外，剛剛本席在臨時提案有提了高鐵南延屏東這個議題，本席知道部長上任之後也很積極在做這樣的溝通。能不能藉這個機會，請部長也很明確地告訴我們屏東的鄉親「高鐵南延不是夢」？"],["陳部長世凱：好，感謝委員這麼地關心，其實長期您都在努力，包含周春米縣長。這個部分交通部也有設定了，我們會設定好所選擇的路線，在今年底會公布路線。公布路線完之後，我們就會實際下去進行準備高鐵南延作業。該做的作業我們都會來進行，這個部分沒有問題。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，除了高鐵的路線之外，很重要的是六塊厝車站雙鐵共構的部分。這個部分是不是可以加快期程，明年讓屏東鄉親看得到動工的成果？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為您都很關心，而且有特別跟我提到這件事，我們希望在今年底之前或者是明年，能夠讓六塊厝的車站，包含臺鐵高架立體化的部分可以趕快來進行。我有跟楊局長一起到現場去看過，周圍的都市計畫跟土地開發的部分，其實屏東縣政府相當地努力，那個進度都已經做得非常地超前。我們認為在交通網絡的部分，高鐵的南延可能還需要一些時間，但是臺鐵六塊厝車站的部分或許可以先行，所以我們希望在明年中可以讓大家看到比較具體的進度。"],["徐委員富癸：好，那這邊再拜託部長，除了加快這樣的期程之外，未來針對延伸到潮州的部分，我想也是我們要努力的方向。我們潮州的鄉親都很期待高鐵延伸到潮州，這對於未來西部整個高鐵的發展，我想是一個正面的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們一步一步來。但是你上次跟我講完之後，我們有特別溝通，目前高鐵延伸到屏東的部分我們還會留尾軌，讓它未來有再延伸的可能性，這個部分我們會預留著。我們一步一步來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好。另外，針對屏南快速道路，還有高捷小港線到林邊這個案子，本席也持續都有在追蹤。部長，這部分到目前為止有沒有照相關的期程在進行？"],["陳部長世凱：有。目前高捷延伸到林園、東港這條線的可行性研究正在進行當中，9月13號屏東縣政府也函報了修正報告來，目前鐵道局也正在積極地辦理作業當中。"],["徐委員富癸：那屏南快速道路的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：屏南快速道路的部分，是不是我請局長說明一下？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，有關屏南快速公路的部分，行政院在今年4月核定可研，所以我們已經展開綜合規劃了。在9月份我們已經辦了期初的報告，綜合規劃完成。現在我們的作業是綜合規劃跟環評會並行，預計明年3月份完成期中的報告。明年年中期中報告定案以後，這個路線比較清楚，我們會進行環境影響評估第一階段環說書的作業。因為它是要二階環評的，所以綜規跟環評我們會同時啟動，有一些可以重疊的期程我們會加速辦理。"],["徐委員富癸：在這邊還是要請部長跟局長多幫忙，因為之前4月份陳建仁院長宣布的時候，我們有聽到兩年要動工，120年要完工，這個期程真的要掌握一下。這是我們屏南的一個救命路，真的要拜託一下。"],["陳部長世凱：這個拼兩年……我們來努力、加速。"],["徐委員富癸：好。針對我們整個恆春半島觀光產業，最近包含消費和梅花鹿被盜獵等污名化的事情，我想對觀光業的衝擊相當地大。尤其屏東有兩個機場，有一個屏東的機場，還有一個五里亭機場，結果都沒辦法做航空的推廣。包括屏東縣政府和業者在內，大家都很擔心墾丁觀光的影響。未來針對五里亭機場的活化問題，還有觀光署的策略，局長有沒有什麼樣的建議方向？"],["陳部長世凱：請署長嗎？"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員指導。墾丁算是我們國家一個非常重要的景區，這個部分我們已經跟墾丁國家公園，還有屏東縣政府一起來做秩序的整理，再把亮點點亮。","第二個，委員很關心恆春以南這個部分，我們叫屏南地區觀光廊帶，我們有跟幾個地方的觀光圈做一些串接，明年正好是恆春古城150週年的活動，我們會善用活動來帶動。我們也希望能夠多留宿，所以民宿的部分我們也特別會來加強，以上簡單跟委員報告。我們跟大鵬灣也是會結合。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，今年臺南建城400年，我知道交通部跟觀光署也大力支持，明年我們恆春建城150週年，我想這是一個很重要的歷史事件，恆春也有很多的歷史場域，也感謝觀光署的支持，縣政府也做好準備了，所以要請部長跟署長大力支持恆春建城150週年。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這部分我們會跟文化部一起來努力，這個非常有文化意涵跟旅行的價值，所以這個我們會努力。"],["徐委員富癸：當然！我們也是希望能夠針對整個恆春半島深度規劃和文化體驗，讓全國及國際的遊客到墾丁來消費、到恆春半島來觀光，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員發言。"],["主席（徐委員富癸代）：接著有請陳素月召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:12:17","end_time":"2024-10-16T11:37:21+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155581","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","duration":737,"start_time":"2024-10-16T11:25:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69eb4eec04e5a703f1aa7101df8a25548c1766e2bcab8f8c7f62e983eb939d23355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.11909375,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.27034375,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.68659375,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.715968750000002,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.555343750000002,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.562843750000003,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.203468750000003,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.60784375,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.05034375,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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也是入鏡少出鏡多這個是一個各國不同的因素是讓我花一點時間讓你講是因為這個我還是覺得在這個所謂問題的掌握上剛剛我聽到的你認為這個來台旅客人數少主要原因是大環境的因素啦譬如說你提到軍演"},{"start":274.144,"end":298.15,"text":"你提到地震還有一個是颱風還有匯率那如果照這個邏輯因為我們做措施是為了解決問題也就是我們端出政策是為了解決問題那上述這四個看起來都不是你觀光局可以解決的對不對"},{"start":299.258,"end":299.318,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":317.523,"end":337.169,"text":"台灣不是地震不是今年剛發生嘛,地震每一年都有啊,而且地震很頻繁在台灣,就像日本地震也很頻繁,但它無法阻止台灣旅客瘋狂的跑到日本去。那一樣的道理,台風,日本的台風我覺得以這兩年來看,日本的台風還比台灣更多。"},{"start":338.772,"end":358.687,"text":"那第三個這個軍演軍演我看也不是今年嘛而且以軍演的角度來看以最近這次軍演台灣股市也不受任何影響他軍演他的台灣股市還是照漲所以我的意思是說如果以這個客觀因素就光光數去理解到這個"},{"start":360.829,"end":383.666,"text":"路徑旅客減少如果是把這個當成重要目標這是第一個我認為我其實是不是太能夠接受那第二個我反推啦因為我不知道你沒有給我這個詳細數據的報告到底為什麼那我反推我從你的政策來反推譬如說你現在吼這個叫做第四季的加碼措施"},{"start":384.446,"end":410.318,"text":"也就是外國團客你發了獎助也就是說來台補助譬如說來台灣住幾天的美團獎助金一萬八到四十九人提高美團獎助金三萬五十人以上美團獎助金四萬換言之觀光局在這一個問題這一個政策我的理解是認為來台灣旅行太貴"},{"start":412.312,"end":438.307,"text":"因為太貴所以我政府端出的一個政策我就是我幫你補貼我的理解啦每一個政策背後他一定有問題要解決嘛那你推出這個現金補貼其實就是象徵著台灣太貴啦外國人站不來所以我就發獎金鼓勵他來這個是一個嘛第二個我看你找了這個"},{"start":440.607,"end":441.731,"text":"這個SA的成員歸選來代言台灣觀光"},{"start":445.236,"end":471.869,"text":"那找一個韓國的代言韓國的明星代言換言之我背後理解這個政策的目的是你要第一個要攻韓國的市場第二個你認為韓國台灣在韓國人心目當中可能知名度尚不足所以我要找一個代言人知名度很高的代言人韓國人很熟悉的一個明星一個人物他來代言然後讓韓國人更知道台灣"},{"start":473.499,"end":478.664,"text":"看起來你推這些政策跟你的客觀分析好像也有點落差"},{"start":479.315,"end":506.352,"text":"譬如說你應該告訴我說臺灣太貴所以我們交通部的政策就是現金補貼你應該告訴我說臺灣觀光景點在韓國人心目當中很模糊所以我就找了韓星來代言我為了讓韓國人更加了解臺灣觀光的特色不然這個政策跟你分析給我聽為什麼觀光客不來臺灣這兩者之間我沒有辦法把它連結起來蘇長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":506.772,"end":525.515,"text":"是委員是專家但是我也利用這個機會跟大家報告一下跟委員報告一下就是一些優惠的措施對旅行社來講他們其實還是有些平價的市場那這個各國都有一些措施那第二個我們代言的時候也是有市場區隔"},{"start":526.576,"end":527.337,"text":"韓國人就是女生來得少"},{"start":545.712,"end":571.223,"text":"但是韓國人又女生出國的觀光客其實很大量很大那因為來台灣的少為什麼所以你們找了一個韓國女生很愛的男星來代言說要不要跟我去台灣玩舉例我不知道你們廣告內容是什麼所以這個叫解決問題所以本席只是告訴你說我不知道你如何對於看待觀光署如何看待"},{"start":572.401,"end":600.875,"text":"到底外國觀光客來臺我們沒有辦法回到疫情前那個報告到底是什麼本席很想了解嘛你有那個報告你針對這個報告提預算本席一定全力支持嘛所以我講過我對你的內容我沒有任何反駁我也不覺得這個沒有什麼我沒有什麼特別意見但是我的意思是說你要讓我們作為一個監督者監督交通部我要很清楚知道你們交通部抓到的問題是什麼"},{"start":602.472,"end":628.933,"text":"那我還是建議交通部不要再提那個客那些什麼大環境那個啦就是說日本人就有地震地震那麼多人家就不會人數就不會少而且日本客嚇死了叫大家不要來了日本太多客人了對不對所以這個我是覺得提這個又會討罵而已嘛所以我們就針對我們觀察我們統計到因為所有data都在都在書裡面嘛我們書裡面掌握到這些data不同的市場不同的說法我們對症下藥好"},{"start":631.235,"end":654.944,"text":"那我接下來我只問說這個請龜賢到代言那我們做了什麼事情對就我們請他做了什麼事因為我只好像看到只有記者會吧記者會是開始做對接下來因為我們是前面的前置作業包括的市場調查領選對然後再來的話他們就是在我們在韓國市場裡面他也來台灣拍實際的"},{"start":656.244,"end":657.185,"text":"韓國的市場明年你們的預估可以成長多少?"},{"start":684.903,"end":708.459,"text":"韓國跟日本是我們臺灣一個非常重要的市場那我們第一個目標是要恢復到疫情之前所以現在我們基本上啦臺灣應該有能量日本跟韓國這兩個市場來臺灣都應該可以達到200萬人次疫情前是200萬嘛韓國還不到所以你現在希望明年的目標韓國就200萬我們還是往這個目標走"},{"start":712.783,"end":735.163,"text":"韓國200萬這個目標管理要很清楚這樣我們才有辦法監督啊不然我們大家都在閒聊而已嘛所以我就抓你明天200萬明天我還會問你這個200萬達成沒有所以我們在去年11月成立了釜山辦事處目的也在這裡好沒問題啦就是你給我一個目標我來監督管理然後督促公安署在做這些事情是部長這樣可以啦好OK謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:25:04 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11:37:21","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155581","gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時25分）謝謝主席。請陳部長、觀光署周署長。"],["主席：陳部長，還有周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早，署長早。今天還是就觀光的問題就教交通部。我看了統計數據，出境觀光人數持續跟入境有逆差，上一次周署長到我辦公室拜會時，我有請你就這個問題……我一直在強調，要解決一個問題，也就是大家說國旅不好，而入境旅客數也達不到疫情前水準，這點從這個統計表就可以看得到。中間這一節是疫情時期，我們就姑且不論；疫情前跟疫情後，即便是疫後也一、兩年時間了，但數字的回復狀況並沒有辦法達到疫前。這兩年觀光產業普遍都哀鴻遍野，對於觀光產業的發展也存在很大的危機感。我請署裡面做基本研究，因為我一直覺得要對症下藥，才有辦法面對觀光產業的問題。不知道署裡面是不是已做出？已經過好幾個月了。你們認為現在觀光產業為什麼會差？"],["陳部長世凱：我請署長。"],["蔡委員其昌：來，署長。"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員指正。我知道委員非常關心，我們也一直在斟酌這件事。針對國旅，我們預判今年人次應該可以恢復到疫情前，但在住宿部分可能還沒辦法達到。也就是現在一日遊還是占70%，留宿的比較少。"],["蔡委員其昌：來臺觀光旅客的目標是年底要達到1,000萬，到10月初大概是600萬，你覺得原因是……"],["周局長永暉：580萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，接近600萬，你覺得原因是什麼？檢討的結果與原因？"],["周局長永暉：我們的目標還是沒變，但確實有幾個不可抗力的因素：第一個是地震、第二個是颱風、第三個是軍演，確實受到這三個因素的影響。還有，經濟因素也是不可控的，就是匯率差。有關匯率差的部分，確實，以日本市場來講，今年日本出境的部分也只有800多萬，雖然我們一直很努力，但這部分也是一個現實的問題。不過這些不是藉口，我們還是做了一波又一波的國際行銷！我們在國際行銷上推出了臺灣觀光品牌3.0，國際與各國觀光客都有發現臺灣在疫情之後推出臺灣觀光品牌3.0，眼睛為之一亮，且針對各國不同，我們都有各自的推動方式。韓國跟臺灣比較像，出境的量也很高，將近1,900萬，截至目前為止，他們也是入境少出境多，這是各國不同的因素。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK。署長，雖然我給你時間講了，但在問題的掌握上，就以剛剛我聽到的來說，你認為來臺旅客人數少，主要原因是大環境的因素，譬如你提到軍演、提到地震，還有一個是……"],["陳部長世凱：颱風，還有匯率。"],["蔡委員其昌：颱風和匯率。如果照這個邏輯，因為我們做措施是為了解決問題，也就是我們端出政策是為了解決問題，上述這4個看起來都不是觀光署可以解決的，對不對？不是嘛？而且這4個，我也說實在話，除了你講到匯率，那可能是對日本的匯率比較有差啦！但是我們的觀光客當然日本是一個很大的來源，那像韓國或其他是我們可以努力的嘛！"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺灣地震不是今年剛發生嘛！地震每一年都有啊！而且在臺灣地震很頻繁，就像日本地震也很頻繁，但它無法阻止臺灣旅客瘋狂地跑到日本。一樣的道理，講到颱風，我覺得以這兩年來看，日本的颱風還比臺灣更多，對不對？第三個軍演，軍演我看也不是今年嘛！而且以最近這次軍演的角度來看，臺灣股市也不受任何影響，它軍演它的，臺灣股市還是照漲。我的意思是，觀光署去理解到入境旅客減少，如果是把這個當成重要目標，這是第一個我其實不太能夠接受的。","第二個，因為你沒有給我這個詳細數據的報告到底為什麼，那我從你的政策來反推。譬如現在這個叫做第4季的加碼措施，就是發獎助給外國團客，也就是來臺補助。譬如來臺灣住幾天的，每團獎助金1萬元；8到49人提高，每團獎助金3萬元；50人以上每團獎助金4萬元。換言之，觀光署提出這一個政策，我的理解是認為來臺灣旅行太貴，因為太貴，所以政府端出了一個政策幫你補貼。這是我的理解啦！每一個政策背後一定有問題要解決嘛！你推出現金補貼，其實就是象徵著臺灣太貴了，外國客人不來，所以就發獎金，鼓勵他來。這是一個原因。","第二個，我看你找了SJ的成員圭賢來代言臺灣觀光。找一個韓國的明星代言，換言之，我理解這個政策背後的目的是，第一個，你要攻韓國的市場；第二個，你認為臺灣在韓國人的心目中可能知名度不足，所以我要找一個知名度很高、韓國人很熟悉的明星、人物來代言，讓韓國人更知道臺灣。看起來，你推這些政策跟你的客觀分析好像也有點落差。譬如你應該告訴我：「臺灣太貴，所以交通部的政策就是現金補貼」；你應該告訴我：「臺灣的觀光景點在韓國人心目當中很模糊，所以我就找了韓星來代言，是為了讓韓國人更加了解臺灣觀光的特色」。不然，這個政策跟你分析給我聽為什麼觀光客不來臺灣的原因，這兩者之間我沒有辦法連結起來。署長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["周署長永暉：是，委員是專家，但是我也利用這個機會跟大家報告一下、跟委員報告一下。一些優惠的措施對旅行社來講，他們其實還是有些平價的市場，各國都有一些措施。"],["蔡委員其昌：我沒有……我其實不是……"],["周署長永暉：第二個，我們代言的時候，也是有市場區隔，譬如是女性的，或者是30歲到40歲的。我們都有做市場區隔。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我的意思是，你應該先把那個報告讓立法院知道。譬如你讓本席知道，本席也跟你說你們到底為什麼……譬如你分析出來覺得韓國人就是女生來的少，但是韓國人又女生出國的觀光客其實量很大，那因為來臺灣的少，所以你們找了一個韓國女生很愛的男星來代言，說要不要跟我去臺灣玩啊？舉例啦！我不知道你們的廣告內容是什麼，所以這個叫解決問題嘛！"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以本席只是告訴你，我不知道觀光署如何看待……外國觀光客來臺，我們沒有辦法回到疫情前，那個報告到底是什麼？本席很想了解。你有了那個報告，你針對這個報告提預算，本席一定全力支持嘛！我講過我對你的內容沒有任何反駁，我沒有什麼特別意見。但我的意思是，我們作為監督交通部的監督者，我要很清楚知道……"],["周署長永暉：應該的。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們交通部抓到的問題是什麼。我還是建議交通部不要再提那些什麼大環境。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["陳部長世凱：要根據交通部能夠做的範圍來解決。"],["蔡委員其昌：日本也有地震，地震那麼多，他們的人數就不會少，而且日本根本嚇死了，叫大家不要來了，日本太多客人了，對不對？我覺得提這個又會討罵而已嘛！所以我們就針對我們觀察、我們統計到的，因為所有data都在署裡面，署裡面掌握到這些data……"],["周署長永暉：是，不同的市場，不同的說法。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，怎麼對症下藥。"],["周署長永暉：對症下藥。"],["蔡委員其昌：接下來我只問，請圭賢代言，那我們做了什麼事情？就是我們請他做了什麼事情？因為我好像只有看到記者會。"],["周署長永暉：記者會是開始做。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那接下來呢？你們打算……"],["周署長永暉：因為我們是前面的前置作業，包括市場調查……"],["蔡委員其昌：OK！我的意思是……"],["周署長永暉：再來的話，我們在韓國市場裡面，他也來臺灣拍實際的體驗。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我們會拍影片？"],["周署長永暉：對，會拍影片。"],["陳部長世凱：會拍影片……"],["周署長永暉：然後在韓國不同的管道來……"],["蔡委員其昌：在不同的通路來播？"],["周署長永暉：對，通路來播，然後……"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，這個都要做啦！不然請他來開個記者會是沒什麼用的。"],["周署長永暉：是，尤其是手遊族，是我們代言人的一個很重要的功課。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們抓一個目標嘛！請圭賢來代言之後，明年韓國的市場你們預估可以成長多少？"],["周署長永暉：韓國跟日本是我們臺灣一個非常重要的市場，我們第一個目標是要恢復到疫情之前。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["周署長永暉：基本上，臺灣應該有能量，日本跟韓國這兩個市場來臺灣都應該可以達到200萬人次。"],["蔡委員其昌：疫情前是200萬嘛？"],["周署長永暉：還不到。"],["蔡委員其昌：韓國？"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你現在希望明年的目標是韓國200萬？"],["周署長永暉：對，我們還是往這個目標走。"],["蔡委員其昌：韓國200萬？"],["周署長永暉：韓國一定要200萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個目標管理要很清楚，這樣我們才有辦法監督啊！不然我們大家都在閒聊而已嘛！所以我就抓你們1年200萬。"],["周署長永暉：這是一個非常重要的市場，所以我們……"],["蔡委員其昌：明年我還會問你韓國200萬達成沒有。"],["周署長永暉：所以我們在去年11月成立了釜山辦事處，目的也在這裡。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，沒問題啦！就是你給我一個目標，我來監督管理，然後督促觀光署來做這些事情。部長，這樣可以吧？"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。","接下來邀請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:06:59","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:18:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155580","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","duration":419,"start_time":"2024-10-16T12:11:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69c28421b5144531f473924a3e020b678a1766e2bcab8f8c7ff1decb59356a5c705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.48659375000000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.14471875,"end":1.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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翁委員好是 局長您好我想前兩天中共實施聯合立見的環台軍演其實也造成國內民眾的大家人心惶惶本席是有看見賴清德總統的臉書上面有PO了一個召開國安高層的會議照片"},{"start":30.877,"end":46.879,"text":"當中的局長和國防部部長、院長其實都在會議當中可是我在這邊想請教就是不知道你們有沒有討論出什麼結果你們要如何殺出重圍然後要怎麼樣突破中共對台灣的封鎖"},{"start":47.6,"end":64.672,"text":"有,跟委員說明一下因為這次的演習大概事前都有做一些情資的分析跟研判那也大概都知道在哪個時間點可能會發動怎麼樣的演習所以當天在國安高層會議的內容當中各單位都有做相關的提報那總統也有做指財式來又對外說明"},{"start":64.972,"end":76.824,"text":"是,我不知道你們會不會都是一些文人在談如何這個突破這個第一次封鎖在現場沒有看到好像有這個我們高階的將領在場參與討論沒有,因為這個會議的現場是國安高層會議那主要是國防部長"},{"start":83.05,"end":83.971,"text":"國防部長來開會之前已經在國軍召開會議"},{"start":105.488,"end":121.425,"text":"這類的會議你們能夠有多點專業人士少點政治人物的口水在裡面那接下來我想下一個議題就是最近呢其實行政院已經開始採取一連串的彌防措施那麼從昨天在高中發這個年輕"},{"start":122.546,"end":129.409,"text":"前陣子也有傳出後備指揮部跟地方宮廟簽署彈藥預囤點的協議所以本席要問的就是說在宮廟放彈藥這件事情安全嗎合法嗎這是應該國防部有對外說明他們有對外說明的是並沒有所謂存放彈藥這件事情"},{"start":145.714,"end":171.804,"text":"所以在暫時的這個存放彈藥的這個議題安全嗎從國安的角度來看難道這件事情不重要嗎只有國家安全重要人民的生命財產安全都很重要嗎那接下來我想請教的就是說您知道我們近年來好在這個彈藥庫曾經發生過我們的彈藥庫發生爆炸意外事件有多少件"},{"start":172.489,"end":199.041,"text":"我希望這不只是國安國防部的問題其實國安單位也要知道那本席在這邊告訴你我們這個有看了一個統計資料軍方在30年來彈藥庫的爆炸事件發生24件24次的事件有20人死亡89人輕重傷這其中還不包括這中間有搬運彈藥等等這些所發生的意外的傷害所以本席要講就是說其實在宮廟存放彈藥"},{"start":200.242,"end":227.002,"text":"就安全性來講這是極其危險的不知道你們有沒有實際上告訴這些已經簽訂公廟協定的這些公廟主知道有這樣的一個狀況因為這是國防部的夜館我們還是尊重他們的一些評估跟規劃這是一個國安高層這個會議它是涵蓋這些民防軍防等等這些全部都在內的所以我希望國安局要重視這些事情那接下來我們再看一下如果從法律的角度來講"},{"start":228.163,"end":257.439,"text":"根本不應該發聲可以在公廟存放彈藥從全民防衛動員準備法第29條裡面的規定就很清楚像圖書館療養院其他慈善機構的場所建築物設備還有人民日常生活所需的這些常會接觸到的設備就不應該存放然後接下來在國際法上同樣的在日內瓦公約裡面清清楚楚的講就是居民要區分原則有一個居民區分原則所以呢"},{"start":257.799,"end":278.354,"text":"民用物體還包含像對文物、宗教禮拜場所等等這些保護這是國家要做的事情民用物體不應該成為被攻擊、被報復的對象所以如果當我們的宗教場所、學校或是其他的慈善用途場所被利用為軍事用途的時候就可能成為軍事攻擊的目標"},{"start":280.336,"end":296.303,"text":"對,國防部有說明說他們沒有說要去存放是,所以國安都沒有意見,國安局都沒有意見這事情我真的覺得很可思議,這是整個國安的一環那接下來我要再講我後來理解這不是國防部的政策我還必須要說的就是說,如果說是"},{"start":297.904,"end":319.532,"text":"在宮廟存放彈藥是這麼危險的事情當我們的學生可能未來被利用成為軍事攻擊目標的時候這件事情難道不應該要向民眾講清楚嗎要把這個事實的嚴重性要講清楚不要忘記了這聯合國他雖然說譴責哈馬斯這個有攻擊平民可是"},{"start":319.912,"end":343.978,"text":"哈馬斯也是說我攻擊的對象也都是軍事對象都是軍事目標所以這個部分的話希望國安高層在研商相關的議題的時候不能夠只是說由國防部我不知道賴部長我不知道顧立雄顧部長他到底了不了解相關的法律的問題還有軍事安全還有人民安全的問題"},{"start":344.878,"end":373.191,"text":"我們都必須要在國安高層會議的時候還有國安局也應該要提出你們的意見而不應該怠惰所以我們不希望當公廟未來成為人肉盾牌需要進行的檢討公廟存放戰略和法制一句話而已就是跟我們說明一下全社會的防衛韌性跟全民接兵要去打仗這是兩個不同的概念那一混淆的話會造成一些不必要的社會恐慌事實上就是你們在混淆沒有這是社會韌性的問題你們在混淆你們在模糊那個界線"},{"start":373.831,"end":389.292,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":389.692,"end":409.229,"text":"對,跟委員講的,全社會熱心這是現在國際社會在俄羅斯戰爭中高度關注的議題,但不要把它講成是...但是沒有像台灣這麼的危險,這個民進黨政府執政以來已經造成台灣已經成為全世界最危險的地方,而且它是民眾戰委,所以這個議題對我們來說很重要,我希望就是官員也能夠在盡快一個禮拜時間給我一個有關於法律的評估報告。"},{"start":416.402,"end":419.381,"text":"必戰是我們最優先的主要原則謝謝委員提醒"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:11:41 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對不對不然所有的第一線的行員連我自己要去領錢他都要問我很久那很久到我都感動我都覺得他很怕我被詐騙這樣可能我年紀看起來有點大但沒關係我覺得這都是好事但是讓我們第一線的工作人員我們回過來看教育面向我們可以做什麼來看下一頁"},{"start":122.445,"end":143.174,"text":"其實我知道公股銀行真的有非常努力在做提升金融素養的事情我不會說沒有包含你們走入社區配合金管會辦金融知識宣導活動辦了產學合作做了弱勢賠利你們甚至還辦了非常多說明會跟講座也就是大家都知道各方各面要提升民眾的素養跟知識下一頁"},{"start":143.934,"end":159.172,"text":"好,那你們還做了更深入跟大專院校合作下令您讓大專院校學生去參觀銀行金管會還有做podcast很好跟上時代還做了演員會做了論壇做了各式各樣的廣宣部長如果從我剛剛一路講下來你覺得我們少了什麼"},{"start":162.195,"end":165.597,"text":"謝謝委員把他整理得這麼完整,當然我想也就委員一開始就您把他整會整的然後我想您剛剛也提到的一開始就是說兒少的部分也就是說孩子他還在至少小學生小學、國中、高中就讓他要有一些觀念那這樣他可以更清楚"},{"start":181.504,"end":207.944,"text":"對,然後我覺得這是可以努力的方向好,那我們來看一下如果部長你也認同我說法是對為什麼要把法務部的同仁請出來呢我跟部長分享也跟副主委分享一個困境好,我們下一頁我說往下扎根的意思就是如同部長您說的小學生、國中生、高中生他們在不同的學習階段其實都需要累積不同的金融素養跟金融知識不管他未來有可能會因為沒有這些知識不小心變成詐騙的幫手、車手"},{"start":209.665,"end":237.417,"text":"或者是他自己就變成受害人我想部長跟副主委你一定認同其實我們可以看得出來過去聯邦銀行、台北富邦銀行、中國信託、玉山銀行還有國泰、世華、點點點、非常多銀行他們都會辦暑假、寒假的活動但是很多都是親子勿動然後要收費我知道在公股銀行有但是相對少例如說我們找出來兆豐銀行、華南銀行、和庫都有辦過類似的活動張盈有主推一些課程"},{"start":238.237,"end":256.588,"text":"那我請法務部出來我也想要請法務部的人回答我我們在收集到非常多跟詐騙有關跟金融犯罪有關的青少年個案當中我們常常可以在後續的收案當中發現他們是基本的知識不足導致於他們不小心成為犯罪的一份子對不對法務部這邊可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":260.427,"end":279.739,"text":"不好意思,報告委員,那個具體打詐的業務,那個我們法務部最近是有...沒有沒有,我沒有要問你打詐,因為我時間有限,我要尊重主席,我要準時下來。但是我要說,是不是我們在收容很多犯罪的個案當中都發現,如果基本知識是足的,素養是足的,他們比較不容易走入這個犯罪的行列,我這個論述可以成立嗎?"},{"start":280.219,"end":284.262,"text":"所以我們可不可以積極地要求公股銀行必須承擔其金融素養普惠金融落實於兒少的政策"},{"start":295.55,"end":319.683,"text":"不管是辦剛剛說的下令營、課程我認為必須要更積極擔負起這個社會責任部長你覺得呢?我覺得委員這個方向很好第一個就是說第一個避免自己被騙第二個不小心落入變成犯罪的一個幫手我想這個部分是有確實有必要尤其青少年現在接觸的因為手機很方便嘛接觸訊息很多但是有的時候正確或是不正確有的時候"},{"start":320.563,"end":334.757,"text":"不知道分辨,我覺得這個部分是可以去加強的。主席不好意思,再幾分鐘。好,那這個沒有錯,那我們還接觸到有非常多的民間團體他們是積極在協助而哨的,不管是從社會福利的角度,從家庭安全的角度,從課業輔導的角度,"},{"start":336.178,"end":360.005,"text":"但是從來可能在金管會的角度或是在財政部的角度在公股銀行的角度都不認為自己在這個財政主管機關是有需要跟這些民間團體接觸的所以我剛剛講不管是進入社區辦課程辦活動更積極的跟當地的兒少團體或相關的組織甚至是跟學校主動發起深入的夏令營也好課程也好當然園遊會是一個很簡單的活動可是我也要說啦"},{"start":360.405,"end":386.645,"text":"許多委員會可能就流於形式大家玩一玩可能就忘記但如果我們有可以更積極規劃夏令營、冬令營然後深度的課程讓孩子們及早學習金融素養那讓普惠金融做得更好我相信我們台灣的詐騙事情絕對會減少得更多我們有沒有機會在三個月內拜託相關部會研究這個事情然後我們積極地來推動那當然你們得去找教育部討論這個我相信是我們後續也會協助因為我在教育文化委員會"},{"start":388.442,"end":389.283,"text":"主席,還有幾分鐘?36?好。"},{"start":411.238,"end":436.463,"text":"在董事長走來的路上我就先說好了不要耽誤後面委員的時間其實我們在立法院我在立法院一直倡議有一個事情非常的重要董事長你也是母親我相信你一定可以用母親的角度來看待我們台灣更多的政策是以兒上為主體為服務的主體為思考的主體我相信101在發揮企業責任身上應該也可以從這個角度試著來做一些發想"},{"start":437.083,"end":451.35,"text":"是委員跟您報告一下其實我們有在做很多的環境教育的部分那我們跟附近的國小也有合作然後會帶著這些小朋友先來認識整個環境整個對於環保的議題對於綠建築的議題還有碳排放這些議題"},{"start":456.673,"end":479.809,"text":"這些聽起來真的都很棒但是董事長我想幫更多的孩子許願周邊的社區的孩子我相信他們對於101絕對不陌生可是有沒有更多不在這個社區或是偏鄉有那我相信更多以兒童為主體我們希望後續可以看到101有更多的作為我們在兒少服務方面主席談起來好那我們辦公室也會再積極跟各部會討論謝謝主席不好意思耽誤時間謝謝好謝謝裴儀委員接著請陳益臻委員花園"},{"start":489.781,"end":489.866,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:10:08 - 12:18:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155579","gazette":{"lineno":940,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時10分）謝謝主席，有請財政部、金管會，還有法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：好，財政部、金管會，還有法務部代表。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，部長好，午安。我時間有限，部長，我想要快速跟您討論關於兒少，在你們的相關主管業務當中，到底能夠為我們臺灣的兒少做些什麼事情？這個是相關的詐騙廣告，其實我們刑事警察局已經開始有非常多的作為，整個行政院也啟動非常多預防詐騙的業務，我想部長您非常清楚。我們來看下一頁，做了這麼多預防詐騙的事情，我要談的是，其實我們發現很多個案或者是很多的陳情人，是相關的金融素養不足。我知道其實大家都做了非常多的事情，金管會今年在五月公布普惠金融的衡量指標，我們臺灣的表現數字其實非常好，不管是ATM或者是我們擁有的銀行帳戶，或是使用電子化支付，也就是說連我自己都覺得，我身邊好像每一個人都在這個完整的金融體系底下有被照顧到。可是如果離開都市地區，我們來看一下，我知道其實你們有做相關的研究，你們到國際上去參加相關的會議，其實在會議當中你們自己也提出，或是在國際的很多研討會上提出，我們有這麼完整的金融體系跟金融服務，但也可能相對的風險就高。以上這個論述，部長您認同嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長認同。可是當風險高的時候，我們要回過來看人民的素養跟人民的知識起點在哪裡，我們做所有的預防詐騙要從源頭開始嘛！對不對？不然所有的第一線的行員，連我自己要去領錢，他都要問我很久，很久到我都感動，我都覺得他很怕我被詐騙，可能我年紀看起來有點大，但沒關係，我覺得這都是好事，但是讓我們第一線的工作人員，我們回過來看教育面向我們可以做什麼？其實我知道公股銀行真的非常努力在做提升金融素養的事情，我不會說沒有，包含你們走入社區，配合金管會辦金融知識宣導活動，辦了產學合作，做了弱勢培力，你們甚至還辦了非常多說明會跟講座，也就是大家都知道，各方各面要提升民眾的素養跟知識。你們還做得更深入，跟大專院校合作舉辦夏令營，讓大專院校學生去參觀銀行，金管會還有做podcast，很好，跟上時代，還做了園遊會，做了論壇，做了各式各樣的廣宣。部長，從我剛剛一路講下來，你覺得我們少了什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員把它整理的這麼完整，當然我想也就是委員一開始……"],["陳委員培瑜：這都是你們做的。"],["莊部長翠雲：您把它整理彙整的，我想您剛剛也提到，一開始就是說兒少的部分，也就是說孩子還在，至少小學生……"],["陳委員培瑜：小學、國中、高中。"],["莊部長翠雲：小學的時候就讓他有一些觀念，這樣他可以更清楚，我覺得這是可以努力的方向。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們來看一下，如果部長也認同我的說法是對的，為什麼我要把法務部的同仁請出來呢？我跟部長和副主委分享一個困境，我說往下扎根的意思就是如同部長說的，小學生、國中生、高中生，他們在不同的學習階段其實都需要累積不同的金融素養跟金融知識，不管他未來有可能會因為沒有這些知識，不小心變成詐騙的幫手、車手，或者是他自己就變成受害人，我想部長跟副主委一定認同。","其實我們可以看得出來，過去聯邦銀行、台北富邦銀行、中國信託、玉山銀行，還有國泰世華等等，非常多銀行都會辦暑假、寒假的活動，但是很多都是親子互動，然後要收費。我知道在公股銀行有，但是相對少，例如說我們找出來兆豐銀行、華南銀行、合庫都有辦過類似的活動，彰銀有主推一些課程。我請法務部出來，我也想要請法務部的人回答我，我們在蒐集到非常多跟詐騙有關，跟金融犯罪有關的青少年個案當中，我們常常可以在後續的受害當中發現，他們是基本的知識不足，導致他們不小心成為犯罪的一分子，對不對？法務部這邊可不可以簡單回應一下。"],["林參事豐文：報告委員，具體打詐的業務，我們法務部最近是……"],["陳委員培瑜：我沒有要問你打詐，因為我的時間有限，我要尊重主席，我要準時下來。但是我要說，是不是我們在收容很多犯罪的個案當中都發現，如果基本知識是足的、素養是足的，他們比較不容易走入這個犯罪的行列，我這個論述可以成立嗎？"],["林參事豐文：我相信應該是這樣子。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，應該是這樣。那我們再請部長跟副主委，所以我們可不可以積極的要求公股銀行？我現在指的是公股銀行必須承擔起提升金融素養、普惠金融落實於兒少的政策？不管是辦剛剛說的夏令營或課程，我認為必須要更積極擔負起這個社會責任。部長你覺得呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我覺得委員這個方向很好，就是第一個避免自己被騙，第二個不小心落入變成犯罪的幫手。我想這個部分是確實有必要，尤其青少年現在因為手機很方便，接觸的訊息很多，但是有的時候正確或是不正確，他不知道分辨，我覺得這個部分是可以去加強的。"],["陳委員培瑜：主席抱歉，再一分鐘。好，這個沒有錯，我們還接觸到有非常多的民間團體，他們是積極在協助兒少的，不管是從社會福利的角度，從家庭安全的角度，從課業輔導的角度，可是可能在金管會的角度，或是在財政部的角度，在公股銀行角度，都不認為自己在這個財政主管機關是有需要跟這些民間團體接觸的。所以我剛剛講，不管是進入社區辦課程、辦活動，更積極的跟當地的兒少團體或相關的組織，甚至是跟學校主動發起深入的夏令營也好，課程也好。當然園遊會是一個很簡單的活動，可是我也要說，很多園遊會可能就流於形式，大家玩一玩可能就忘記了，如果我們可以更積極的規劃夏令營、冬令營，然後深度的課程，讓孩子們及早學習金融素養，讓普惠金融做得更好，我相信我們臺灣詐騙事情絕對會減少得更多。我們有沒有機會在三個月內，拜託相關部會研究這件事情，然後我們積極的來推動？當然你們得去找教育部討論，這個我相信是的，我們後續也會協助，因為我在教育文化委員會。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，謝謝委員的提示，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以可以嗎？三個月內。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們會回去……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你就說可以啦！拜託啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：可以啊！"],["陳委員培瑜：我在幫很多兒少請命。好，最後一個，因為今天101董事長有來，我也想要再幫兒少許願，麻煩101董事長，謝謝賈董事長。主席再一分鐘？30秒，好。在董事長走來的路上，我就先說好了，不要耽誤後面委員的時間。其實我在立法院一直倡議，有一件事情非常重要，董事長也是母親，我相信你一定可以用母親的角度來看待，我們臺灣更多的政策是以兒少為主體，為服務的主體，為思考的主體，我相信101在發揮企業責任上，應該也可以從這個角度試著來做一些發想。"],["賈董事長永婕：是，委員，跟您報告一下，其實我們有在做很多環境教育的部分，我們跟附近的國小也有合作，會帶著這些小朋友先來認識整個環境，對於環保的議題，對於綠建築的議題，還有碳排放這些議題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這些聽起來真的都很棒，但是董事長，我想幫更多的孩子許願，周邊社區的孩子，我相信他們對於101絕對不陌生，可是有沒有更多不在這個社區或是偏鄉……"],["賈董事長永婕：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信更多以兒童為主體，我們希望後續可以看到101有更多的作為好嗎？"],["賈董事長永婕：我們在兒少服務方面……"],["陳委員培瑜：主席站起來了。好，我們辦公室也會再積極跟各部會討論，謝謝主席，不好意思耽誤時間，謝謝。"],["賈董事長永婕：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝培瑜委員，接著請陳玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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有請局長來 局長請"},{"start":9.332,"end":36.107,"text":"好謝謝主席局長好我是山地原住民的立法委員那麼我相當關心國家的安全問題當然我也很關心我們原住民在這其中所扮演的角色所以我先找幾個新聞我念一下關鍵字你聽聽看有海峽兩岸少數民族交流協會收受廣西台辦"},{"start":37.591,"end":40.003,"text":"現金資助免費旅遊招待"},{"start":41.348,"end":67.923,"text":"競選後援會網路宣傳拉票委託指示贊助支付獎金匯入銀行帳戶回報競選進度討論選戰策略規劃甚至是看到判刑才5個月4個月一顆髮金緩刑5年局長中國借選看起來已經是明確的事實對吧"},{"start":70.584,"end":94.884,"text":"對對我們掌握到多少我們從去年到現在國安單位查辦的這些有關共諜包括借選的案件應該有八十幾件那判刑的結果起訴的大概應該有四十幾件那您覺得如何我們很辛苦收集情資然後每次送給檢調到了法院那我們的反滲透法看起來很像是塑膠啊"},{"start":96.64,"end":115.535,"text":"對,就目前的法律條文的規範來講我們當然必須在情報的部分來支援檢調單位來查查相關的案件盡量來鞏固那個法律要件那讓這些案件送到檢方跟院方比較容易遇案我這樣提出來就是希望國安局這個部分因為我們覺得這是破口話"},{"start":118.13,"end":143.048,"text":"你了解我的意思吧我知道那為什麼進來了其實在我們的立法院我講一句實在話大家也都實有所聞也是不爭的事實許多的助理也都會講出來太多太多的辦公室從以前到現在都能夠接得到國台辦的電話省台辦的電話有時候會問說好久沒來啦什麼時候帶人來啊"},{"start":147.603,"end":173.369,"text":"甚至他們說因為統戰的經費很多花不完要核銷這也都是不爭的事實對吧對就相關的一個兩岸的互動我剛才跟其他委員講正常的交流我們沒有意見但是只要涉及到這種滲透的有違反到反滲透法所謂的發展組織的借選的或是來善惑影響公共安全秩序的所以你們都有掌握"},{"start":174.109,"end":201.671,"text":"對 這個部分的樣態我們會一直來持續關注因為我們也覺得原住民是個破口立法院更是個大破口啊因為我們常常可以看到新聞報導現在可能也都利用原住民的議題來去包裹那像這個之前引起公民團體抗議也是因為這樣的一個因素那我是要提到是說現在那個落地招待啊已經變了"},{"start":203.325,"end":221.045,"text":"我們地方的人都說哎呦怎麼那個大陸那邊都沒有喜歡我們老人了都要年輕人了他現在聚焦在元清對那你看看兩萬四千八新疆九天一般旅行社一模一樣的行程要六萬三千九百起"},{"start":222.046,"end":243.165,"text":"那我也知道說有很多校園統戰團有做相關系列報導那這些去的年輕人回來呢都說只是交朋友現在手段越來越柔軟了懷柔手段溫水煮蛙甚至他們自己去了還能說哎呀中國總算找到對的方法了"},{"start":244.386,"end":262.931,"text":"那請教一下國安局有掌握嗎有現在大概這方面的交流中共會特別鎖定到元清的部分那他們主要是透過一些文化的體育的那另外還有包括中共的地方的政府也會舉辦一些少數民族的文化活動來邀請元清過去"},{"start":263.351,"end":283.859,"text":"那這是第一部分主要的樣台第二部分是假如涉及到那個費用的部分那假如有一些協力團體來引介這些的交流活動那他是沒有相關理由的授權的證照的話這是我們另外一個查辦的重點那局長我在這邊只是要講我們都覺得好像"},{"start":285.103,"end":286.304,"text":"我舉個例子像是日本"},{"start":301.235,"end":325.787,"text":"或者是美國他們都在擔憂一件事情因為中資中國買了好多土地啊甚至是美國有66%的美國民意他們是希望能禁止中國在他們美國買土地局長我要跟你講這些年輕人假設他回來他的個資他當人頭我們現在有進法補償對不對是"},{"start":328.858,"end":337.628,"text":"這個禁法補償借名登記還看不出誰買你在日本買地在美國買地還看得出來喔我們這個原保地是要借人頭的"},{"start":339.434,"end":363.17,"text":"你們有沒有查過有多少有多少被中資買走沒有這部分假如中資或入籍人士要來採買我們的相關的不動產的話那內政部有個審查機制那我們會受邀去參加這個審查機制那審查重點就在於說採買的人有沒有黨政軍的背景採買的不動產是不是在重要的軍事設施敏感的設施周邊那局長我跟你講是"},{"start":363.55,"end":371.345,"text":"他們會不會買一些軍事像您知不知道連我們的關鍵設施都有可能被滲透欸他們有交流欸"},{"start":375.945,"end":393.446,"text":"國安局有掌握嗎?因為時間的關係我只是希望說我們都知道這些是認知作戰但是我們的國人都不怕那我覺得國安局你們掌握最多最多最多的情資都在你們的手上要揭露啊"},{"start":393.766,"end":394.206,"text":"有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":419.346,"end":424.672,"text":"可以在一周之內：也可以來跟我說明掌握的情形：好,我們來一個穩做作報告：好,謝謝局長：謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:04:05 - 12:11:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":"155576","gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時4分）謝謝主席，有請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：局長好。我是山地原住民的立法委員，那麼我相當關心國家的安全問題，當然我也很關心我們原住民在這當中所扮演的角色，所以我先找了幾則新聞，我唸一下關鍵字，你聽聽看。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有海峽兩岸少數民族交流協會、收受廣西臺辦現金資助、免費旅遊招待、競選後援會、網路宣傳、拉票、委託、指示、贊助、支付獎金、匯入銀行帳戶、回報競選進度、討論選戰策略規劃，甚至是看到判刑才五個月、四個月、易科罰金、緩刑五年。局長，看起來中國介選已經是明確的事實，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那麼我們掌握到多少？"],["蔡局長明彥：從去年到現在，國安單位查辦有關共諜，包括介選的案件，應該有八十幾件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：判刑結果？"],["蔡局長明彥：起訴的應該有四十幾件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您覺得如何？我們每次辛苦蒐集情資，送給檢調，到了法院，我們的反滲透法看起來很像是塑膠！"],["蔡局長明彥：就目前法律條文的規範來講，我們必須在情報的部分支援檢調單位查察相關的案件，儘量來鞏固那個法律要件，讓這些案件送到檢方跟院方，比較容易立案。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我這樣提出來，就是希望國安局留意這個部分，因為我們覺得這是破口，你了解我的意思吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：講一句實在話，其實我們在立法院也都時有所聞，已是不爭的事實，許多助理也都會講出來。從以前到現在，太多太多的辦公室都接得到國台辦的電話、省台辦的電話，有時候還會說好久沒來，什麼時候帶人來？他們甚至還說，因為統戰的經費很多，花不完要核銷，這也都是不爭的事實，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就兩岸相關的互動，我剛才也跟其他委員講，正常的交流，我們沒有意見，但只要涉及到這種滲透的，有違反到反滲透法所謂的發展組織的、介選的或是來煽惑影響公共安全秩序的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們都有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個部分的樣態，我們會持續來關注。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們也覺得原住民是個破口，立法院更是個大破口，我們常常看到新聞報導，現在可能也都利用原住民的議題來去包裹，像之前會引起公民團體抗議，也是因為這樣的一個因素。我現在要說的是，那個落地招待已經變了，我們地方的人都說：怎麼大陸那邊都沒有喜歡我們老人了，都要年輕人了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他們現在聚焦在原青。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，你看24,800元新疆九天遊，一般旅行社一模一樣的行程要63,900元起；我也知道很多校園統戰團做過相關系列報導，這些去過的年輕人回來都說，只是交朋友。現在手段是越來越柔軟了，懷柔手段溫水煮蛙，甚至他們自己去了，還能說中國總算找到對的方法了。請教國安局可有掌握嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。現在這方面的交流，中共大概會特別鎖定原青的部分，主要是透過一些文化的、體育的。另外包括中共的地方的政府，也會舉辦一些少數民族的文化活動邀請原青過去，這是第一部分主要的樣態；第二部分，如果涉及到費用，由一些協力團體來引介這些交流活動，他們沒有相關旅遊的授權證照的話，也是我們另外一個查辦的重點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：局長，我在這邊要講，這一些好像很嚴重影響我們的國安，但很多人都在抱怨，好像怎麼做都沒事！我為什麼要這樣講？我就舉個例子，像日本、美國，他們都在擔憂中國用中資買了好多土地，美國甚至有66%的民意，希望禁止中國在美國買土地。","局長，假設這些年輕人回來了，他的個資被當了人頭，我們現在有禁伐補償，這個禁伐補償借名登記還看不出誰買，你在日本買地，在美國買地都還看得出來，我們這個原保地是要借人頭的，你們有沒有查過，有多少是被中資買走？"],["主席：請摘要回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。假如中資或陸籍人士要來採買我們相關的不動產，內政部有個審查機制，我們會受邀去參加這個審查機制。審查的重點就在於，採買的人有沒有黨政軍的背景，採買的不動產是不是位在重要的軍事設施、敏感的設施周邊？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：局長知不知道，連我們的關鍵設施都有可能被滲透，他們有交流，國安局有掌握嗎？因為時間的關係，我只想說我們都知道這些是認知作戰，但是我們的國人都不怕，國安局掌握最多、最多、最多的情資，都在你們的手上，你們要揭露，要反守為攻。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它就跟詐騙一樣，手法越來越多元，越來越讓你渾然不知，希望國安局在這個部分能夠有更積極的作法，要不然，我們快要沒有信心了。大家都知道這些事情都存在，但是從來沒有人因為這件事受到什麼嚴重的懲罰或揭露，都沒有！是不是可以在一週之內，來跟我說明掌握的情形？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來跟委員做會後的報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝局長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員，局長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員，邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:09:14","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:11:26+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155575","委員名稱":"萬美玲","duration":554,"start_time":"2024-10-16T12:02:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df6992b986563bb7a1448abd6de18eea4dbe1766e2bcab8f8c7f130a6e79d11c52415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.020968750000002,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.383468750000002,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":95.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.52659375,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.15096875,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.75846875,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.27284375,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.32159375,"end":111.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.49034375000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.17534375000002,"end":186.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.65159375000002,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.74784375000002,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.17346875,"end":207.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.04534375,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.62721875000003,"end":253.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.86284375000002,"end":212.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.78034375000001,"end":268.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.91721875,"end":329.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.24096875000004,"end":339.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.62784375,"end":355.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.19909375000003,"end":355.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.26659375,"end":374.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.46659375,"end":388.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.26971875000004,"end":393.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.79284375000003,"end":390.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.94034375,"end":391.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.05409375000005,"end":432.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.55409375000005,"end":435.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.46471875000003,"end":447.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.75471875000005,"end":447.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.26909375,"end":447.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.55596875000003,"end":447.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.72471875,"end":447.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.79221875,"end":447.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.36159375000005,"end":459.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.60034375000004,"end":460.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.93784375,"end":460.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.13596875,"end":462.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.96284375000005,"end":465.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.13971875000004,"end":465.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.23659375000005,"end":472.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.27346875,"end":475.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.97346875000005,"end":477.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.58909375,"end":483.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.39846875,"end":485.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.38971875000004,"end":485.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.82846875,"end":485.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.96346875,"end":489.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.68471875000006,"end":490.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.39721875000004,"end":496.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.24034375,"end":503.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.29096875000005,"end":497.80971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.23159375000006,"end":500.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.96909375,"end":547.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.46846875,"end":551.0334687500001},{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我想這個我們實際上是有在做啦台電是有持續在做只是沒有來跟委員做一個比較詳細的報告現在停調電不是只有桃園喔所以本席要求你成立這個外部停調電事故調查委員會這麼公正的第三方那有公正的第三方出來那將來講出來的理由我們也能相信嘛所以這個調查委員會什麼時候會成立呢"},{"start":355.333,"end":370.265,"text":"我們現在其實是有跟地方政府在合作啦我們基本上希望把那個可能跳電的紅區都圈出來我們現在台電已經都圈好了那麼我們勢必要在這個半年內把它全部的消除"},{"start":370.825,"end":372.767,"text":"但是有一些我們需要委員來回答我們"},{"start":389.304,"end":393.568,"text":"我想最後再一分鐘我們桃園我們要這個成立大型數據中心一律不合公點因為我們在北區但你給我們桃園什麼我想相關的這些空污啊 污染啊尤其是SRF我特別今天在這裡提我想我們的召委我們主席也很關心這件事情"},{"start":411.906,"end":435.094,"text":"一開始桃園市政府為什麼會同意因為你經濟部給了推薦函那我們後來要撤銷的時候你經濟部曾經說過你會尊重桃園市政府但是顯然你沒有尊重桃園市政府啊所以我們現在要二次撤銷今天本席在這邊來請教部長對於桃園市政府SRF的二度撤銷入園那你怎麼看你支持桃園市政府的二度撤銷嗎我請教部長"},{"start":438.247,"end":464.749,"text":"這個 我想地方政府跟業者的這個合法行為啦 我想經濟部都支持那 任何開發的行為都希望業者所對與地方溝通啦 可是部長 請你抬頭看著我 不要看稿子好嗎請你抬頭看著我 不要看稿子是對 在我們桃園市政府二度撤銷3家SRF廠商入園許可 這件事情你要怎麼處理 你的態度是什麼我的部長 請 呃 對不起 後面那位請你離開"},{"start":466.274,"end":495.216,"text":"我想大家如果住在合法的情境我想就是按照這個規定的程序來進行什麼是規定的程序就是法定的程序什麼是法定的程序在這件事情上就是讓業者向這個台灣市政府申請所以台灣市政府就不同意啊台灣市政府現在是不同意的我想部長我要提醒你一件事情這件事情現在國外的投資者充分的關心這個命題"},{"start":496.377,"end":505.204,"text":"國外的投資者充分的關係我們就必須要屈從嗎?這個關鍵是非常重要的部長您講的我也同意但是這件事情不要給我討論市政府扣帽子當初如果不是經濟部推薦那我們不會同意但是呢你今天又還沒有gas在選舉前把這個推薦還收回去了我必須要提醒經濟部"},{"start":518.775,"end":546.56,"text":"今天SRF的廠商我不知道是要迫於就是給這個桃園市政府壓力還是有別的想法那現在也提出了國賠這個國賠未必是針對桃園市政府我想經濟部有相當的責任我們希望在會後找一個時間部長能夠跟本席我們好好討論一下關於桃園的SRF這個部分我們六位立委都非常關心那我們希望找一個時間部長能夠跟我們好好的來談一談我們後續怎麼尊重桃園市政府怎麼善後這個議題可以嗎"},{"start":548.493,"end":550.561,"text":"我想時間上可以的話我沒有問題好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:02:12 - 12:11:26","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155575","gazette":{"lineno":904,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（12時2分）謝謝主席，我們有請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長好，我終於見到你了，因為本席在總質詢的時候您剛好又請假，那一天其實本席準備了很多和經濟部有關係的議題，但是沒有辦法來質詢，我覺得真的非常遺憾。","當然你已經一再地說明過為什麼要請假，也是經過准假，這個本席都沒有意見，但是我必須要講，像我們身為委員也不會知道究竟是哪一天開議，但我們會去推算，在那個前後其實我們不太敢去排其他的事情，因為開議總質詢是最重要的事情，這是第一個。","第二個，其實部長上任大概四個多月，你就出訪了4次，美國1次，日本也去了3次，您去3次，參加臺日科技對談，也發表了演說，或者是參訪日本生技、半導體廠商等等，3個月去過3次了，在總質詢期間還要去，我實在看不出什麼必要性。同時，我在想，剛剛我們在討論什麼喜不喜歡當官，這都不是重點，重點是我們在這個位置上的一天，就要把事情做好嘛！而且本席更期許你，也祝福你，在我們這一屆當中經濟部長是不會換人的，這個你有信心嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：如果大家同意，我會做下去。"],["萬委員美玲：這不是大家同不同意，還是要看您的表現嘛！對不對？但是我是非常期許與祝福，因此要提醒部長，之後您可能還會經歷很多個總質詢，麻煩以後在總質詢的時候不要請假，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["萬委員美玲：因為經濟部是非常重要的一個部會。"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，您剛剛也說到，這一次去日本最主要是要去協助臺灣的廠商在日本投資，不管是創造更好的條件、解決一些投資障礙，或者是一些交通規劃、人才培育等等，都是您這次回來做的一個解釋跟說明，不過換句話說，其實你是不是就等於是協助日本對臺進行半導體廠商招商？可以這麼講嘛！日本對我們招商，我們的廠商去了，然後你過去做了一些協助。","我想請教，這一次您去，在吸引日本廠商來臺灣投資的部分有沒有成績？這是第一個。第二個，您剛剛所說的，要協助臺灣的廠商在那個地方，有什麼具體成效？第三個，所謂的臺商現在在那個地方，那麼這一次我們是有增加訂單，還是有什麼樣的成果？給你30秒。"],["郭部長智輝：好，報告委員，我去這一趟並不是只有半導體這件事情，我們有談其他的產業。我跟您報告一個產業，我這次去主要談的是無人機的產業，這個無人機的產業大概在2028年，一年在日本有2,000億臺幣的市場，我談下來的結果就是這個2,000億的市場將跟我們臺灣的業者互相合作，因為臺灣在製造上面，我們的mass production比較厲害，我們大量生產比較厲害，所以日本會給我們這個……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，您現在說明的是，我們還有去談了一個無人機的雙方合作……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我覺得這都是好事情啦！但是重點是說，日本除了可以幫我們的半導體產業，這個護國神山也好，或者是其他相關的人才啦！資源啦！我們都到日本去投資，但重點是，就像您剛剛說的，互相嘛！對我們臺灣到底有什麼幫助，我想這個是最重要的重點。","同時我也要提醒，這一次部長回來也有提到我們在那裡也希望能夠培育人才，不過我是覺得我們培育的人才真的要為臺灣所用。部長來自於業界，非常知道我們的半導體也好，或者是我們這些AI，像理工科技人才也是人才荒，所以怎麼樣讓臺灣自己有人才，甚至於留在這裡，這是重點，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們經濟部有一個2+4的計畫，也就是說讓國外的人才來臺灣學習2年，然後留在臺灣的產業工作4年，4年以後換另外一個身分，繼續為臺灣的企業打拚。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，我想就是要留住人才啦！這個是重點。","另外，不管是部長、次長，承諾過的事情我們就要做到。先前本席在質詢的時候，曾經有要求台電要成立外部停跳電事故調查委員會，我想應該沒有忘記這件事情啦！為什麼？因為之前我們大規模小規模跳電停電無數次，每一次你們端出來的理由，尤其是在本席的選區，以及我們今天主席的選區桃園，那個理由真的是笑掉人家大牙，甚至於很多人是完全不相信，到底實際是怎麼樣，我不予置評，我不會去講你說的是謊話，但是你就成立一個外部停跳電事故調查委員會嘛！這也是一個公正第三方，而且之前次長也說要成立，但是本席看到你們現在僅僅就是在桃園，台電跟桃園市政府成立了一個桃園電力穩定專案小組。我跟你講，第一個，這非常的弱；第二個，也不是當時本席所說要成立的，這個部分的話，後面應該怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個我們實際上有在做，台電有持續在做，只是沒有來跟委員做一個比較詳細的報告。"],["萬委員美玲：不是啊！現在停跳電不是只有桃園，所以本席要求你成立外部停跳電事故調查委員會這麼公正的第三方，有公正的第三方出來，將來講出來的理由我們也能相信嘛！所以這個調查委員會什麼時候會成立呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在其實有和地方政府合作，基本上，我們是希望把可能跳電的紅區都圈出來，現在台電已經都圈好了，那麼我們勢必要在半年內把它全部都消除，但是有一些需要委員來回答我們……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我想你答非所問啦！我在這邊因為時間有限，我就是針對本席再三提出來的，希望有一個公正的第三者──外部停跳電事故調查委員會，我們應該要怎麼去成立，1個月內給本席一個說明，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的……"],["萬委員美玲：1個月內。"],["郭部長智輝：全國的部分，我們會再來跟委員報告。"],["萬委員美玲：最後我再1分鐘。我們桃園要成立大型數據中心，台電一律不核供電，因為我們在北區，但你給我們桃園什麼？相關的這些空污啦！污染啦！尤其是SRF，我今天特別在這裡提，我想我們召委我們主席也很關心這件事情，一開始桃園市政府為什麼會同意？因為你經濟部給了推薦函。我們後來要撤銷的時候，你經濟部曾經說過會尊重桃園市政府，但是顯然你沒有尊重桃園市政府啊！所以我們現在要二次撤銷。今天本席在這邊來請教部長，對於桃園市政府二度撤銷SRF入園，你怎麼看？你支持桃園市政府二度撤銷嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請產發署跟您報告一下。"],["萬委員美玲：我請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：我想地方政府跟業者的合法行為，我們經濟部都支持，任何開發的行為都希望業者多多與地方溝通。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，請你抬頭看著我，不要看稿子好嗎？請你抬頭看著我，不要看稿子。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我們桃園市政府二度撤銷3家SRF廠商入園許可，這件事情你要怎麼處理？你的態度是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我的……"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，後面那位請你離開。"],["郭部長智輝：大家如果是在合法的情境，就是按照既定的程序來進行。"],["萬委員美玲：什麼是既定的程序？"],["郭部長智輝：就是法定的程序。"],["萬委員美玲：什麼是法定的程序？在這件事情上。"],["郭部長智輝：就是讓業者向桃園市政府申請。"],["萬委員美玲：桃園市政府就不同意啊！桃園市政府現在是不同意的……"],["郭部長智輝：是，但是我跟委員……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我要提醒您一件事情……"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，就這件事情，現在國外的投資者充分地關心這個命題，這個會導致外國人……"],["萬委員美玲：國外的投資者充分地關心，我們就必須要屈從嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：到時候會不願意來投資臺灣，這個關鍵非常重要。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，您講的我也同意，但是這件事情不要給我桃園市政府扣帽子，當初如果不是經濟部推薦，我們不會同意，但是你今天又很沒有guts，在選舉前把這個推薦函收回去了。","我必須要提醒經濟部，今天SRF的廠商我不知道是不是要給桃園市政府壓力，還是有別的想法，現在也提出來要國賠喔！這個國賠未必是針對桃園市政府，我想經濟部也有相當的責任，我們希望在會後找一個時間，部長能夠跟我們好好討論一下關於桃園的SRF這個部分，我們6位立委都非常關心，希望找一個時間，部長能夠跟我們好好地來談一談後續怎麼尊重桃園市政府，怎麼善後這個議題，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：時間上可以的話，我沒有問題。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，SRF的部分還是要尊重地方政府，已經撤銷第二次了，不要一直循環地撤銷，我們好好地來解決問題，不要有外在的壓力。謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這個樣子"},{"start":121.301,"end":138.385,"text":"國人可以休息這麼多天但是勞工的每年的那個總工時有沒有降低這是一個問題就我看了一下去年我們平均的勞工總工時是2019.6個小時那我們很喜歡跟韓國比嘛韓國是1970個小時啦他只有2002年比較高但人家是1970個小時"},{"start":147.627,"end":176.676,"text":"這等於是我們是比人家高啊那再來我看了一下那個其他鄰近幾個國家的國定假日我們不跟OECD國家比我們就是看了一下鄰近幾個國家像柬埔寨他國定假日是28天那印度是21天我們台灣是11天中國大陸17天但我知道每一個國家有不同的文化本來就會有不一樣的做法不一樣制度會導致這個國定假日的放假日數不一樣這我可以理解"},{"start":177.176,"end":206.114,"text":"但是依據內政部的紀念日跟節日的實施方法來看有一些未放假的假日未放假的節日跟勞動部也有一點關係比如說婦女節這是婦女職場上面的重視勞動部是不是可以向內政部去爭取說婦女節是不是可以給這些勞動的婦女放假我是說這個也是一個勞動部這邊可以去"},{"start":207.014,"end":207.034,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":222.956,"end":237.513,"text":"我們的工時長那自然命比他們短我想這個應該大家都可以理解但是勞動部並不是為了資方的資動部所以勞動部還是要去思考一下我們要怎麼解決這個問題那前面只是跟"},{"start":238.073,"end":265.922,"text":"部長說明一下現在的狀況那其實我要提的是一個點就是目前我國的特休不管是勞工或公務員我們的特休的日數是依據你的年資去累計的嘛部長一定非常的清楚但是現在世界上很多國家他們的邏輯是不需要跟著年資來去累計比如說像我手邊查到的法國他一年的休假最多150天那這個我們不看"},{"start":267.182,"end":286.917,"text":"西班牙他一年至少30天的自主假期而且這個跟年資深淺無關那德國的話他的聯邦休假法是20天也跟年資無關所以部長這個特休這個東西需不需要跟年資綁在一起這個再麻煩部長能夠"},{"start":288.338,"end":315.831,"text":"請貴部去做研究然後兩個月內能夠給我一個研究的報告好嗎那當然我是蠻希望的啦就是我們現在鼓勵年輕人多生小孩多照顧小孩那是不是我們在特休的日數上面也能夠去思考不要跟年資一定要絕對綁在一起因為畢竟這是一個世界上很多國家的一個潮流是不是我們也可以仿效這個方向所以先麻煩兩個月內給我一個"},{"start":317.432,"end":318.032,"text":"主席再麻煩主席要裁釋他兩個月要再麻煩我們"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:04:04 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今天審證券交易稅條例第二條及第十二條我都有提案 我提案怎麼沒寫在你的意見"},{"start":23.308,"end":48.155,"text":"我有提案啦我的提案你的意見是怎麼樣遵照十二條那邊我們遵照那只是一個通知啊那個地方沒有我的名字沒有我的名字你到底我的提案你知道嗎我知道我知道沒有我的名字勒你有做事情也比較平靜的十二條的那個他通知啊或這些但你知道我的提案的內容嗎還有另外一條還有另外一條這個"},{"start":52.45,"end":77.475,"text":"儘管會做事要精確阿連這個審議的法案每一個委員的提案你都有表示意見阿我的提案你就沒有任何意見沒有任何意見有可能是反對餒沒有人再說了啦 再說一段話回去再改進一下連這個精確性都沒有辦法做到來請財政部莊部長"},{"start":82.049,"end":93.213,"text":"時間暫停一下時間暫停一下部長這個國庫的業務裡面這個112年你們稅率剩餘是2796億預估113年度呢?3年是不是?預估啦"},{"start":108.645,"end":135.307,"text":"一百一十三年第一個我們的稅收的部分是一定可以達成我也不會去借錢稅數的剩餘是多少那還沒有結束啊大概啦大概喔大概要看稅路要怎麼支出啊我想這個部分這個數字還沒有辦法跟委員報告好啦就是說因為支出的部分在總統這邊你從2016連續七年都是剩餘嘛對不對是的 是的那代表說政府會賺錢還是會省錢"},{"start":139.294,"end":163.604,"text":"第一個我們的稅客我們的稅入好然後支出的部分大家也都尊潔支出那這樣的話就會有剩餘是那我今天要問你一個另外一個問題產商條例是經部要修法十之一條產商條例的內容是什麼它針對一些這個產業包括這些人工智慧啦或者是檢驗檢探相關的產業"},{"start":166.185,"end":191.832,"text":"做一些調整那這部分財政部的立場財政部的部分跟經濟部都已經在這個之前都有過非常密切的調整是支持而且目前來說經濟部也已經預告了是支持的現在我們都討論過的另外他有提到說這個提供中小企業第一例優惠的融資貸款畫面"},{"start":196.704,"end":221.196,"text":"提供中小企業低利優惠融資貸款我看你們報告裡面你們對中小微企業的復甦扔緩資金需求很多那你們這個部分又增加到九千億這部分有沒有提供給這些微中小型企業更優惠的利率"},{"start":222.802,"end":240.132,"text":"報告對我們是有一個方案就是中小學企業那個那個融資振興的一個優惠方案那由我們的公股行戶來做乘坐那在利率的部分他們也會給你協助對利率優比一般的貸款更為優惠嗎應該是我想他們都在對"},{"start":241.152,"end":267.621,"text":"那利率的部分是2.12那比一般的利率低我們要不要資料再提供給委員會後再提供資料給我我希望有實質的優惠是的好我們把整個方案提供給委員是現在產業的這個調整在中國的企業慢慢這個到東南亞到其他地方去那這個國有銀行現在在這個中國的分行件數大概有幾件25件"},{"start":272.286,"end":273.467,"text":"最多分行是哪一家銀行?"},{"start":284.878,"end":300.485,"text":"我問這個問題是說希望你們調整一下這個分行是不是有設立的必要性跟普選程度的這個影響評估這個部分當然是要考慮而且在尋境外設分行也要經過經管會的同意啊該測的時候就要測"},{"start":301.926,"end":330.459,"text":"所以不能像過去一樣這個一窩蜂在這個西晉的時候這個設立分行那你現在這個政策轉移的時候中國變成高度這個震驚風險的國家這個時候我們的國有銀行是設立分行它的必要性跟這個未來怎麼去處理啊當然這個部分一定要審慎的部分做風險的控管謝謝委員的提醒國有地它禁止出售對不對大面積國有地大面積的不再出售"},{"start":331.379,"end":357.304,"text":"市有地不算是國有地,對不對?市有地它是可以公開去標授,對不對?市有地他們有他們的自治條例去除了土地,然後還有土地法規廣義來說市有地也算是國有地嘛那你可以設定一些標準,你現在有收受這個土地供應的這個因素啊"},{"start":358.044,"end":358.864,"text":"財政部有相關的做法?"},{"start":387.826,"end":412.518,"text":"根委員報告你指的用設定地上去還是用什麼方式或是在一段時間禁止出售事由土地的處理第一個是屬於自治事項第二個土地政策的主管機關在內政部財政部沒有這個權責去約束縣市政府處理它的縣市有的財產這個部分根委員就說明是是內政部主管是那最後一個問題金融兵推"},{"start":413.958,"end":426.469,"text":"金融兵推是您主持的嗎不是不是不是不是金融兵推不是我們主持的金融兵推是年度的這個例行性的計畫還是因應特殊事件是不定期的計畫跟委員報告"},{"start":429.491,"end":451.828,"text":"因為有一個全民防衛動員準備法的規定那裡面我們有一些定期要做的一些事項那財政部的部分是財力的部分那這個部分都是一個例行性的部分那有關金融兵推的部分我們是配合國防部的一個整體規劃來做它包含有關的一些事包含外匯金融處置這個是涉及到央行跟金管會等等"},{"start":453.049,"end":454.31,"text":"是國防部來規劃的。是國防部來規劃?對,對,對。好,謝謝。謝謝委員是,謝謝。"},{"start":479.448,"end":483.667,"text":"好,謝謝邱志偉委員那接著我們請陳佩儀委員花言"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:01:50 - 12:10:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155573","gazette":{"lineno":863,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時1分）謝謝主席，有請金管會副主委。"],["主席：請金管會副主委。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：副主委，今天審查證券交易稅條例第二條及第十二條，本席也有提案，但是對本席的提案，你們怎麼沒有表示意見？本席有提案啦！針對本席的提案，你們的意見是什麼？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：第十二條的部分，我們遵照辦理，那只是一個通知。"],["邱委員志偉：上面有本席的名字。你知道本席的提案內容嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：但是報告內都沒有出現本席的名字，你們做事要認真一點。你知道本席的提案內容嗎？金管會做事要精確，審議法案時，每一個委員的提案你們都有表示意見，但是本席的提案，你們卻沒有任何意見，可是沒有任何意見也有可能是反對。不用再找了，這樣只是浪費本席的時間，請你們回去改進一下，連精確性都沒有辦法做到。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["邱委員志偉：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，國庫的業務裡面，你們112年的歲入、歲出賸餘是2,796億元。113年度的預估呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是說113年嗎？"],["邱委員志偉：預估啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：113年，第一個稅收部分一定可以達成，我們也不會去借錢。"],["邱委員志偉：本席是問你，你們預估的歲入、歲出賸餘是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：年度還沒有結束啊！"],["邱委員志偉：大概啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：看歲入要怎麼支出啊！這個數字還沒有辦法向委員報告，因為支出的部分在主總那邊……"],["邱委員志偉：好啦！你們從106年開始，連續7年都有賸餘嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：這代表政府會賺錢，還是會省錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：都有。"],["邱委員志偉：如果是會賺錢，我們很高興。"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個是我們的歲入好，至於支出，大家也都撙節支出的話，這樣就會有賸餘。"],["邱委員志偉：本席接下來問你另外一個問題。經濟部要修產創條例第十條之一，產創條例的內容是什麼？它是針對一些產業調整，包括人工智慧或者節能減碳相關產業。這部分財政部的立場如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部的部分，之前和經濟部已經做過非常密切的調整。"],["邱委員志偉：支持吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是支持的，而且目前經濟部已經在預告。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你們是支持的，本席是擔心你們不支持。"],["莊部長翠雲：是支持的，我們都討論過。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，它有提到提供中小企業低利優惠融資貸款，本席看了你們的報告，你們認為中小微企業的復甦仍緩，有很多資金需求，所以針對這個部分增加到9,000億元，這部分有沒有提供中小微企業更優惠的利率？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們是有一個方案，就是中小企業振興優惠方案，由公股行庫承作，利率的部分，他們也會給予協助。"],["邱委員志偉：利率有比一般貸款更為優惠嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該是，他們都在場。利率的部分是2.72%，比一般的利率低，我們要不要再提供資料給委員？"],["邱委員志偉：都有吧？會後再提供資料給本席，本席希望有實質的優惠。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們再把整個方案提供給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：現在產業進行調整，原本在中國的企業慢慢移到東南亞，或是到其他地方，國有銀行現在在中國的分行大概有幾間？25間，擁有最多分行的是哪一家銀行？部長不知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：兆豐，是嗎？在中國大陸的分行。"],["邱委員志偉：擁有最多分行的是哪一家銀行？本席問這個問題是希望你們調整一下，這個分行是不是有設立的必要性，以及暴險程度的影響評估。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分當然要考慮，而且在境外設分行也要經過金管會同意。"],["邱委員志偉：該撤的時候就要撤。"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！"],["邱委員志偉：所以不能像過去一樣，一窩蜂在西進的時候設立分行。你現在政策轉移的時候，中國變成高度政經風險的國家，這時我們的國有銀行設立分行的必要性，以及未來怎麼去處理啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，這個部分一定要審慎的做風險控管，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["邱委員志偉：國有地禁止出售對不對？大面積國有的禁止出售。"],["莊部長翠雲：大面積的不再出售。"],["邱委員志偉：市有地不算是國有地對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是國有地。"],["邱委員志偉：所以市有地可以公開標售對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：市有地有他們的自治條例去處理，然後還有土地法的規定……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道啦！但是廣義來說，市有地也算是國有地嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：不是。"],["邱委員志偉：廣義來說啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是公有地。"],["邱委員志偉：那你可以設定一些標準。有時候說土地供應的這個因素變成房價高漲的原因之一，所以這個時候如果市政府或縣政府把它的市有地或縣有地拿出來標售，通常都是非常高價。"],["莊部長翠雲：了解。"],["邱委員志偉：當然對挹注它的市庫或者縣庫有幫助，但是它會變相造成房價上漲，所以財政部是不是有相關的做法，用設定地上權還是用什麼方式，或者在一段時間禁止出售？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，市有土地的處理，第一個，是屬於自治事項；第二個，土地政策的主管機關在內政部，財政部沒有這個權責去約束縣市政府，處理它的縣市有的財產，這個部分跟委員說明。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這是內政部主管就對了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，內政部主管。"],["邱委員志偉：最後一個問題是關於金融兵推，金融兵推是您主持的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，金融兵推不是我們主持的。"],["邱委員志偉：金融兵推是年度的例行性計畫，還是因應特殊事件，是不定期的計畫？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，因為有一個全民防衛動員準備法的規定，那裡面我們有一些定期要做的事項，財政部的部分是財力，這個部分都是例行性的。有關金融兵推的部分，我們是配合國防部的整體規劃來做，它包含有關的一些事，包含外匯金融處置，這個是涉及央行跟金管會等等。"],["邱委員志偉：我問的問題是說年度性的計畫，還是因應特殊事件？"],["莊部長翠雲：年度性的。"],["邱委員志偉：一年辦幾次？"],["莊部長翠雲：一次吧，一次啦！"],["邱委員志偉：如果特殊事件發生或因應特殊事件，未來可能有一些特殊事件發生，你們有沒有相關的專案兵推？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是由國防部來規劃的。"],["邱委員志偉：是國防部來規劃？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員，接著我們請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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會有這種困境喔這個就是我們面對這種新興行業還是要面對的問題是當我們各委員也訂閱版本了"},{"start":226.491,"end":251.165,"text":"那版本現在我理解應該都是在我們衛環委員會跟司法法省會聯繫是可是委員我跟您報告那如果說到最後會變成是說大家山不管那無怪乎大家會覺得是說現在這就是一個山不管地帶不是山不管是啊看起來就是所以說你沒有從一個主管機關應有責任負責的態度來去處理啊我們先從跟交通部訂定運費透明化管理規則還有包括另一手跟平台推動對話我們先用這樣來處理這樣是一個比較目前有效的"},{"start":260.431,"end":278.484,"text":"但是遠遠不及...部長本席剛開宗明義我就講你們現在八次的對話我都有看因為這個是當初我要求說你們的會議記錄一定要公告上網那你們八次的會議現在其實聚焦兩個部分一運費透明你們已經有先提出了"},{"start":279.204,"end":290.907,"text":"本期與肯定但第二個部分就是說外送員的工作權益這個也是我們一般就是因為一般的約聘顧或是一般我們有相關的保障但是對於外送員目前是沒有嘛"},{"start":291.837,"end":311.596,"text":"委員 部長 我是希望部長能夠更有積極的態度來勇於認識那第二部分啦部長我來確認一下因為前些日子我們有這個颱風架就是天災然後其實它不叫架啦它叫停班停課啦那但是呢"},{"start":312.637,"end":333.969,"text":"也有人講是說這個有可能會發生是各地方政府在認定之後反而會造成有這個其他的考量好那我們現在拉回來也有人開始在講是說中央是不是能夠統一認定可是中央統一認定的話其實面臨到另外一個部分就是如果真的是颱風衍生出來出勤不出勤以及雇主扣薪扣績效扣出勤獎金"},{"start":334.569,"end":362.364,"text":"新知的一個認定跟計算嘛勞動部之前有訂立天然災害發生事業單位勞工出勤管理跟工資幾副要點但是還是沒有確定說該不該入法你只有什麼勞工不出勤移不要扣薪勞工出勤移給加班費但你還是沒有明確的去規範以至於發生亂象如同啊上禮拜"},{"start":363.618,"end":381.929,"text":"上禮拜我們直接講有一些縣市我們就突然看到是說因為他的氣候跟雨量可能沒有預期來的多而造成是說百貨公司零售業還是有還是有營業那對勞工的保障呢所以部長我們現在要問的是說到底"},{"start":383.632,"end":401.452,"text":"不管是天災價或說天災的相關的一些法令的規範有沒有要比較積極的協助幫忙勞工這邊來去做權益的捍衛跟保障我們當然都一直很積極的在這方面所以你認為是可以入法嗎 可以立法 沒有"},{"start":402.495,"end":431.787,"text":"因為委員全世界都沒有所謂的天災假害因為這是一個不可控的是但是現在我們在講的我們現在講的是如果說他停班停課但是雇主還是有要求譬如說他有一些行業真的就是說他一定要上班上課的話那我們是不是應該要給予保障我們是不是應該要立法給予要求雇主應該要給予應有的權益而不是用一個移移給加班費移不扣薪"},{"start":433.747,"end":446.765,"text":"這樣對於勞工其實是沒有保障的不是嗎部長本席點出來這兩個相關的修法其實都是站在勞工的立場我想這也是勞動部應該要有的立場"},{"start":448.387,"end":448.687,"text":"謝謝黃孟楷委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:56:14 - 12:03:59","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155572","gazette":{"lineno":1051,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時56分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請我們何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我確認一下，因為本席長期關注外送專法，勞動部日前才跟交通部說，勞動部、交通部出手，外送平台運費透明化。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想這也呼應本席之前要求勞動部把跟外送平台溝通的會議紀錄都上網公告，也在本席要求之下都已經有公告，最近一次是8月8日，本席都有看，其中跟外送業者最關鍵的兩點，一點就是運費的透明，一點就是有沒有被平台惡意或是無故解除工作機會，對不對？現在費率已經出來了，但是草案還有調整的空間，但另外一個部分就是解除工作機會，到目前為止還沒有一個法令可以明確地保障跟規範。雖然有一些規定，可是本席剛剛聽你講，你沒有打算要推動專法，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：我已經講過了，就是外送專法必須是一個有效的立法，那……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然是有效立法，但是我們在講，就是它含括的部會非常多，但是一定還是會有主管機關。"],["何部長佩珊：如果主管機關放在勞動部，我只能管到外送員，我管不到外送平台，這是最大的困境，所以這個我們必須……"],["洪委員孟楷：您認為現在大家的一個方向……"],["何部長佩珊：跨部會討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，跨部會討論，因為過去我們在衛環委員會討論非常多，我不知道是不是因為換了一個部長之後就有一個新的思維，以往的部長也不會覺得這個不是勞動部的事情，以往的部長也認為可以來研議，可以來研究，但換了新任部長之後，突然間講說，只管得到外送員，但其他部分沒有辦法。外送這個行業其實是手機和5G訊號出來之後的新興產業，這是全世界的趨勢，我們現在講的是說，我有看到報導，我還想給予肯定，講說勞動部還要再邀請各部會跨部會地來討論到底要怎麼樣責任分工，但現在部長一句話說完全沒有要管。"],["何部長佩珊：我不是我沒有要管，而是……"],["洪委員孟楷：您剛剛的態度跟感覺就是，所以說我要確認一下……"],["何部長佩珊：我們正在討論中。"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在到底有沒有一個時程？或是說，勞動部會不會積極地去找各部會來？"],["何部長佩珊：我要跟委員報告，這是一個必須廣泛討論的事情，那麼我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯嘛。就像外送平台計費透明化，這是勞動部和交通部討論的結果，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那本席也給予肯定啊，雖然說人家會覺得，現在出來之後，我們要避免後續平台轉嫁成本給消費者，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在有傳出運費是60元，好像還沒有完全確認，在沒有完全確認的情況下，那我們要來確認會不會平台把這個成本轉嫁給消費者，加重消費者的負擔。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊，這是必須……"],["洪委員孟楷：或者是平台也加重餐廳的負擔，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：變成是平台穩賺不賠。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，那外送專法也是同樣，放在勞動部，也會變成只管到外送員，把外送員綁死。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有。"],["何部長佩珊：只是你也管不到平台，也保護不了外送員，可能會有這種困境。委員，我們面對這種新興行業還是要非常的慎重來……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長！現在要面對的問題是我們各委員已經有提案版本了，據我的理解，這些提案應該都在我們衛環委員會跟司法及法制委員會的聯席會，如果說到最後會變成是大家三不管，那無怪乎大家會覺得現在這就是一個三不管地帶。"],["何部長佩珊：不是三不管，所以委員，我們應該從……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！看起來就是。所以說你沒有從一個主管機關應有負責的態度去處理啊！"],["何部長佩珊：我們先從跟交通部訂定運費透明化管理規則還有跟平台推動對話，我們先用這樣來處理，這是目前比較有效的，可能還不至於說去訂一個專法，事實上……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是遠遠不及。部長！本席剛才開宗明義就說過，你們現在8次的對話我都有看，因為當初我要求你們的會議紀錄一定要公告上網，你們這8次會議其實聚焦在兩個部分，一、運費透明，這點你們已經有先提出了，本席予以肯定；二、外送員的工作權益，因為一般的約聘僱或是一般的工作我們有相關的保障，但是對於外送員目前是沒有嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，對運費透明化的規定就是對他工作權的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：我希望部長能夠用更積極的態度來勇於任事。","第二個部分是我要來確認一下，因為前些日子我們有這個因天災而給的颱風假，其實它不叫「假」啦，是停班停課，但是也有人說這個有可能各地方政府在認定之後反而會造成有其他的考量，也有人開始講中央是不是能夠統一認定，可是中央統一認定的話其實面臨到另外一個問題，就是如果真的是颱風衍生出來出勤、不出勤以及雇主扣薪、扣績效、扣出勤獎金及薪資的一個認定跟計算，勞動部之前有訂立天然災害發生事業單位勞工出勤管理跟工資給付要點，但還是沒有確定這部分該不該入法，你們只有什麼勞工不出勤「宜」不要扣薪、勞工出勤「宜」給加班費，但你們還是沒有明確的去規範，以至於發生亂象。就如同上禮拜，我們直接講，我們就突然看到有一些縣市因為該地的氣候跟雨量可能沒有預期的多，導致百貨公司、零售業還是有營業，那對於勞工的保障咧？部長，我們現在要問的是不管是天災假或是天災相關的一些法令規範，到底有沒有要比較積極的協助幫忙勞工這邊來去做權益的捍衛跟保障？"],["何部長佩珊：我們在這方面當然一直都很積極的希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你認為是可以入法嗎？可以立法？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，因為委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的「積極」意義在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：全世界都沒有所謂的天災假，因為這是一個不可控也沒有辦法去歸則的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在講的是如果說停班停課了，但是雇主還是要求上班，譬如說有一些行業真的就是要員工一定要上班上課的話，那我們是不是應該要給予保障？我們是不是應該要立法要求雇主給予應有的權益，而不是「宜」給加班費、「宜」不扣薪？這樣對於勞工其實是沒有保障的。不是嗎？"],["主席：洪委員，可不可以會後請我們的勞動部提供資料？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席點出來這兩個相關的修法，其實都是站在勞工的立場，我想這也是勞動部應該要有的立場，相對積極努力任事，因為這個絕對不可能因為你不看不碰然後就可以不面對的，相信之後我們還會在這邊進行討論，不管是外送專法，不管是相關的這些條文，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:10:44","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:04:09+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155571","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","duration":644,"start_time":"2024-10-16T11:53:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df690cc8b18b99b040f5ba4b17f6040cd0391766e2bcab8f8c7f2aebae2ba5998d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.56971875,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.20159375,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.825968750000001,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.51284375,"end":148.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.82971875,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.36221875,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.77596875,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.22596875000002,"end":186.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.32659375,"end":219.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.54534375,"end":288.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.11034375000003,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.64159375000003,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.12659375,"end":225.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.50596875000002,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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Delight我們台灣每一年都是由我們民間團體自己來選訓選手選出台灣代表隊到日本去參賽也已經多年但是因為過去我們的體育署有他組織的限制所以國際交流的說不行不行你們要去找文化部才有辦法補助"},{"start":277.11,"end":277.13,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":297.458,"end":297.478,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":312.549,"end":326.55,"text":"部長、署長一定非常清楚,場地是關鍵。很多的新興運動上次座談會亞林委員的團隊也在現場。例如說像我們的BX找不到,根本找不到地方讓孩子練習。然後呢,像我們有這個皮克球"},{"start":329.373,"end":336.336,"text":"這個他是要進羽球場場地打球呢還是進網球場場地打球呢沒有一個專門的告示所以呢每次他們進去光是練習而已都會被人家趕出去然後呢像這個有自由潛水的選手平常做一些簡單的練習但是可能民間營運的游泳池他們是禁止這樣子練習的那我自己較熟悉的滑板那就是今天真的要跟部長跟署長還有次長來拜託了"},{"start":355.865,"end":362.418,"text":"台灣目前不是只有台北,全台灣都沒有一座國際標準的滑板廠"},{"start":364.281,"end":384.599,"text":"就算是沒有標準只是練習場的滑板場呢我們都是手指數得出來的也就是數量嚴重的不足我們隔壁附近的日本這一次奧運滑板冠軍的日本日本國內現在是超過400多個滑板場地所以在場地的總量上我們要加緊"},{"start":386.038,"end":398.341,"text":"你有總量你才有辦法做分級分流有些是玩家性質有些是娛樂性質有些是學習性質的以不同的年齡有不同是同色的場地但總量一定要加強但在這邊我能不能夠拜託部長可以承諾明年我們能不能夠來啟動全台灣第一座國際標準規格的滑板場"},{"start":406.863,"end":411.146,"text":"謝謝委員提醒事實上跟委員報告我們已經在公建計畫提這樣的一個我們已經有提案了是是是而且這個行這個審查程序我們就馬上就可以著手來做"},{"start":431.078,"end":444.449,"text":"好的那最重要就是需要場地嘛是就場地要落腳在哪一個縣市政府呢要趕快開始進行溝通那就需要我們都非常樂意幫忙好不好謝謝委員好那署長請回我接下來想要請問部長的呢是賴清德總統非常關心的百億青年海外圓夢基金我看了我們今年的預算非常的興奮為什麼因為呢青發署今年的預算今年度啊總共你們可以用的是7.4億嘛對不對"},{"start":459.921,"end":463.565,"text":"您們現在送進來要審的明年我們本來預計預算要編到多少19億19億我看了真的非常的振奮等於說我們對親發屬的重視預算的增加是超過兩倍2.5快將近快要三倍其中呢賴清德總統非常重視的國際交流體驗我們是從3億"},{"start":483.404,"end":497.705,"text":"﹗"},{"start":498.055,"end":518.138,"text":"跟委員報告我目前大概有關這個百億青年圓夢這一個部分大概我們現在在進行這一個招標整個辦公室我們會有一個更專業的團體希望能夠來協助這個青年圓夢那順利的情況我們大概就明年初就會正式把這個對外公開徵件"},{"start":520.34,"end":520.36,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":538.916,"end":538.936,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":557.172,"end":575.32,"text":"台灣的年輕人有夢想而且有規劃有計畫我們就來支持他們有實現的機會部長你剛剛講一個非常重要的重點就是我們中央的跨部會其實都有培育青年人才的需求例如我過去非常關心的是藝術與設計領域的菁英海外培訓計畫"},{"start":576.46,"end":582.502,"text":"那過往有一些可能是在文化部有一些可能在經濟部比如說工業設計綁在經濟部還不在文化部分屬在各個部會但是他們可能都是我們想要來培養跟支持的青年圓夢所以我希望這個我們到時候因為甄選的辦法都還在討論擬定希望我覺得兩個原則第一個廣泛的來徵詢跟諮詢青年的意見"},{"start":601.91,"end":627.887,"text":"因為像我也都不算青年的你們要去遵循真正的青年他們的想法他們需要什麼我們這一個所有的辦法基本上在親師會裡面有討論過也跟我們這個年輕朋友都開過但是草版這個草案出來還要再討論然後領域應該要多元不要特別集中在哪一個包括人文設計影視音藝術等等相關領域我希望都可以讓各個領域的青年只要有夢想"},{"start":629.008,"end":629.048,"text":"部長請回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:53:25 - 12:04:09","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案。）","id":"155571","gazette":{"lineno":803,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時53分）謝謝主席，我請教育部部長。"],["主席：好。請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。我知道我們的總統、院長，包括部長您，我們都非常關心臺灣的新興運動發展，尤其我們最近已經緊鑼密鼓的在準備、籌備，而且已經幾乎要走最後一哩路的，也就是我們要成立新的體育部。今天要跟部長討論的是，部長、署長也知道我一直很關心臺灣的街舞、霹靂舞的運動發展，尤其是我們臺灣的霹靂舞，最近我跟民間有一些座談，大家非常自豪的是，我們臺灣在霹靂舞其實是世界的強國。臺灣人非常有才華，我們很多項目在世界都是擠進前幾名的，霹靂舞也已經成為臺灣的優勢項目。像我們的選手孫振，不只是入選奧運前16強，他奧運比賽完沒有回來休息，緊接著到歐洲參加幾個指標性的賽事，相繼得到了亞軍、冠軍。我認為不只是說我們要協助民間的霹靂舞者，而是這一些舞者是我們臺灣最好的外交大使，同時也是我們臺灣最好的優勢，我們已經是霹靂舞的強國了，所以接下來的問題就是，請問我們政府要怎樣來協助？","最近我在休會期間舉辦了一場新興運動發展的座談會，感謝我們的次長跟署長都列席來聽聽民間的意見，其中北市大的蘇志鵬教授，因為他也是我們的舞總以及霹靂舞委員會的委員，他給的一個建議我覺得相當的好。他說，我們不應該只舉辦賽事，因為現在臺灣民間其實已經很多國際賽事了，他說我們應當去參考，例如說像荷蘭，他們是把街舞的比賽當成一個國際型的節慶街舞節在舉辦，所以它同時有國際交流，同時也帶來觀光價值。舉例來說，像荷蘭有舉辦Summer Dance Forever，這個活動一辦就是7天，裡面有賽事、有座談、有工作坊等等相關綜合性的活動。也就是說，這7天的時間，全世界最強的舞者或是在努力學習當中，未來深具潛力的新興舞者都聚集到這個國家、這個城市，我覺得這也是我們未來一個很好的參考模式。我不知道在我們所規劃的、即將成立的新的體育部當中，對於新興運動，我們目前有什麼樣的規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。確實街舞的發展令人興奮，在臺灣，我們在許多公開的場域都會看到年輕人在練街舞，未來的這個運動部，我們確實在全民運動署裡面有一個新興運動組，在這個部分，我想委員提供了許多非常好的、有價值的訊息，我相信運動部的成立，本來就是希望能夠有更多的全民運動，包括新興的運動項目，能夠去支持年輕人他們所有的興趣，他們的投入能夠讓世界看得到，而且能夠跟世界做朋友……"],["吳委員沛憶：全民運動署當中的新興運動組？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：也就是我們將會有一個專責的行政單位，這個窗口就是專門來發展新興運動，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，專門for新興運動……"],["吳委員沛憶：我覺得這個非常的好，也能夠去突破我們過往所遇到的，有一些是跨單位之間的溝通，那新興運動當然也不是只有霹靂舞，也不是只有我關心的滑板……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，當然。"],["吳委員沛憶：還有很多新興的運動，請你們都要廣泛的跟民間來了解。像我剛剛講的國際賽事，因為我比較熟的是街舞，其實臺灣民間已舉辦多年，例如說世界歷史最悠久，1992年日本就開始舉辦的國際賽事Japan Dance Delight，我們臺灣每一年都是由民間團體自己來選訓選手，選出臺灣代表隊到日本去參賽，也已經多年，但是因為過去我們的體育署有它組織的限制，所以談到國際交流就說不行不行，你們要去找文化部才有辦法補助，這部分我希望未來既然運動部要成立新興運動組了，我們也有新興運動的概念，也有全民運動的概念，請你們都應當在行政辦法當中把它考慮進去，可不可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員提醒，確實我們朝那一個方向，甚至剛才委員所提的這些都非常具有產業的價值，我們在未來，事實上怎麼樣去把這些新興項目，還有許多的競技的運動項目，能夠結合產業，讓它能夠有一個更蓬勃的發展，我想這都是我們未來已經設定的一些目標。"],["吳委員沛憶：好的，除了賽事活動以外，部長、署長一定非常清楚，場地是關鍵。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：很多的新興運動，上次座談會，雅琳委員的團隊也在現場，例如說，像我們的BNX根本找不到地方讓孩子練習；然後像我們有匹克球，這個是要進羽球場場地打球，還是進網球場場地打球呢？沒有一個專門的告示，所以每次他們進去，光是練習而已，都會被人家趕出去；然後，像自由潛水的選手，平常做一些簡單的練習，但是可能民間營運的游泳池，他們是禁止這樣子練習的。至於我自己較熟悉的滑板，今天真的要跟部長、署長還有次長來拜託了，臺灣目前，不是只有臺北，全臺灣都沒有一座國際標準的滑板場……"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：就算不講標準場地，只講練習用的滑板場，國內的數量都是手指數得出來的，也就是數量嚴重的不足。我們隔壁附近的日本，這次奧運滑板冠軍的日本，日本國內現在有超過400多個滑板場地，所以在場地的總量上，我們要加緊建置。有總量才有辦法做分級、分流，有些是玩家性質，有些是娛樂性質，有些是學習性質的，不同的年齡也有不同的適合的場地，但總量一定要加強。在這邊我能不能夠拜託部長可以承諾，明年我們能不能夠來啟動全臺灣第一座國際標準規格的滑板場？開始來啟動，開始編預算，開始找場地，我相信只要我們有心去跟地方政府溝通協調，我們中央預算編下去，我們一定可以做得到，能不能來承諾？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，事實上跟委員報告，我們已經在公建計畫提這樣的一個……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們已經有提案了？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，而且只要循審查程序，我們馬上就可以著手來做。"],["吳委員沛憶：好的。那最重要就是需要場地，場地要落腳在哪一個縣市政府，要趕快開始進行溝通，有需要，我們都非常樂意幫忙，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，署長請回。接下來想請問部長的是，賴清德總統非常關心的百億青年海外圓夢基金，我看了我們今年的預算，非常的興奮，為什麼？因為相較於青發署今年的預算，今年度總共你們可以用的是7.4億嘛，對不對？你們現在送進來要審的明年的預算，我們本來預計要編到多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：19億。"],["吳委員沛憶：19億，我看了真的非常的振奮，等於說我們對青發署的重視，預算增加超過2倍，達2.5倍，將近3倍，其中賴清德總統非常重視的國際交流體驗的預算則從3億增加到13億，翻了4倍，就是代表我們政府對青年的學習體驗，尤其是海外的圓夢，我們非常、非常的支持。但是除了預算之外，相關的內容目前有什麼樣的規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，有關百億青年圓夢這個部分，目前我們在進行招標成立辦公室，我們會有一個更專業的團體，希望能夠來協助青年圓夢，情況若是順利，我們大概明年初就會正式對外公開徵件。青年圓夢計畫裡面大概主要有兩個大方向，一個就是來自於各中央政府機關裡面，他們在許多國際事務或者部會裡面為國家培養的一些青年領袖人才；另外一個是來自於年輕人，他們自己提案，我們透過一個專家團體來協助他的提案，然後讓他能夠好夢成真，就是讓他的夢想能夠成真，然後到國外的許多國際組織，包括志工，包括許多各式各樣的一些可能……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，臺灣的年輕人有夢想，而且有規劃、有計畫，我們就來支持他們有實現的機會。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，你剛剛講到一個非常重要的重點，就是我們中央的跨部會，其實都有培育青年人才的需求，例如我過去非常關心的是，藝術與設計領域的菁英海外培訓計畫，過往有一些可能設在文化部，有一些可能在經濟部，比如說工業設計放在經濟部，還不在文化部，分處在各個部會，但是他們可能都是我們想要來培養跟支持的青年圓夢，所以我希望我們到時候，因為甄選的辦法都還在討論擬定，我覺得有兩個原則：第一個，要廣泛的徵詢跟諮詢青年的意見，因為像我也都不算青年了，你們要去徵詢真正的青年他們的想法，看他們需要什麼……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們所有的辦法，基本上在青諮會裡面也討論過，也跟我們的年輕朋友都有開過……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，我知道，但是草案出來後還要再討論，然後領域應該要多元，不要特別集中在哪一個領域，包括人文、設計、影視音、藝術等等相關的領域，我希望都可以讓各個領域的青年，只要有夢想……"],["鄭部長英耀：都包括在裡面。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們的海外青年圓夢計畫就來支持他們，可不可以努力來做？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們確實就是朝那個方向在規劃。"],["吳委員沛憶：好的，謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝吳沛憶委員，時間控制得非常好。","我們早上有宣布，在吳沛憶委員質詢完之後，我們要先處理解凍案11案還有臨時提案，今天委員有提出3案臨時提案，現在請議事人員一起宣讀。","一、預算解凍案：","二、臨時提案：","1.","案由：","有鑑於在本次山陀兒颱風對南台灣高屏地區之侵襲，乃發生有偏鄉地區學校因災損和斷水斷電，進而產生住宿學生失去基本飲食需求之供應；例如，屏東慈惠醫專便發生此類情形，且直到第五天才恢復校園與周遭地區正常生活，而過程中多日有賴學校職員集資自外縣市帶泡麵、便當和礦泉水運送至校內方能渡過。爰此，特提案要求教育部記取相關教訓與經驗，應超前部署針對未來災害所影響學校對住宿學生供餐機制，儘速進行檢討與行政指導之修訂，俟後並於二個月內提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　林倩綺　　羅廷瑋　　柯志恩　　","2.","查有女學生發現自己過去繳交的體育課作業影片，在非自願的情況下被上傳並公開於網路。影片接收到有許多留言，包括對外貌及身材之評價，以及帶有性暗示，甚至可構成性騷擾之留言。讓當事人感到心理不適與壓力。","事實上此事已涉及違法，包括著作權法、民法與性騷擾防治法等等。","雖當事人已自救，聯繫學校、老師並且報警。但校園內可能仍有許多類似影片未被妥善管理、保存，而有遭竊取、侵權之風險。","故提出以下要求：","1.請教育部研擬補救措施以保護學生權利不受侵害。","2.未來如有需請學生上傳影片繳交作業之狀況，在學生未知情同意影片會被公開之狀況下，一律應依「學校使用資通系統或服務蒐集及使用個人資料注意事項」辦理。","提案人：吳沛憶　　范　雲　　陳培瑜","3.","案由：鑒於最近召開之國家語言發展會議，許多講者提及對族語教育之憂心，例如族語開班數與學生人數，從國小到高中逐漸下降，背後反映出族語教師的缺乏，而族語教師缺師有多項因素，包含師培不足、門檻過高、誘因不夠，本席曾多次質詢教育部族語教師相關事宜，亦提出可執行之解方，惟未見教育部明確答覆，爰請教育部就以下事項，於二週內向本委員會提出書面報告。","1.參酌本席建議，評估族語老師降低族語認證門檻、分級敘薪、族語多元認證等政策可行性。","2.調查各大學原住民族師培開班狀況與學生人數、畢業後實際從業人數。","3.了解113學年度族語專職老師、族語教支人員、現職教師的組成比例，以提升族語老師專職化政策目標。","提案人：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳培瑜　　張雅琳　　范　雲"],["主席：現在處理解凍案第1案，請問各位委員，有無任何意見？"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有意見。"],["主席：好，那第1案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第2案，請問各位委員，有無任何意見？","好，那沒有意見，第2案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第3案，請問各位委員，有無任何意見？"],["張委員雅琳：沒意見。"],["主席：好，那第3案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第4案，請問各位委員，有無任何意見？"],["張委員雅琳：沒意見。"],["主席：好，沒有意見，第4案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第5案，請問各位委員，有無意見？"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有意見。"],["主席：沒有，第5案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第6案，請問各位委員，有無意見？"],["吳委員沛憶：沒意見。"],["主席：沒有意見，第6案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第7案，請問各位委員，有無意見？"],["吳委員沛憶：沒意見。"],["主席：沒有意見，第7案我們准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第8案，請問各位委員，有無意見？"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有意見。"],["張委員雅琳：沒有。"],["主席：第8案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理第9案，請問各位委員，有無意見？"],["張委員雅琳：沒有意見。"],["主席：沒有意見，第9案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理解凍案第10案，請問各位委員，有無任何意見？"],["張委員雅琳：沒有意見。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有意見。"],["主席：沒有意見，第10案准予動支，提報院會。","現在處理解凍案第11案，請問各位委員，有無意見？"],["張委員雅琳：沒有意見。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有意見。"],["主席：沒有意見，第11案准予動支，提報院會。","解凍案處理完畢，我們現在處理臨時提案。","臨時提案第1案的提案人是陳菁徽委員，請問提案委員有無補充說明？"],["陳委員菁徽：不用，我們已經溝通完。"],["主席：好，不用，那教育部有提出一些修改建議，就在大家的桌上。","請吳沛憶委員發言。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個提案我是支持的，但是因為這次颱風造成偏鄉地區的學校受損，影響的不只屏東，像基隆影響也非常嚴重，所以我希望你們去檢討的時候，就是全臺大專院校相關的措施都要檢討嘛，是不是？不是只針對一個縣市吧？因為一個縣市不足喔，所有都一起檢討。"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，這是全國性的通案，也謝謝委員的提醒。"],["吳委員沛憶：全國的，好，那我沒有意見。"],["主席：教育部已經有……吳沛憶委員的意見請納入。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，也謝謝陳委員的同意。"],["主席：它上面已經改了，教育部下面有寫「並輔導各大專校院處理」。"],["鄭部長英耀：倒數第2行修正為「儘速進行檢討並輔導各大專院校院辦理」。"],["主席：「各大專院校院」前面要不要加上「全國」？"],["鄭部長英耀：加「全國」，可以。"],["主席：OK，這個就改在上面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：幫我加連署。"],["主席：好，待會再來前面連署。"],["陳委員菁徽：「全國」還有「輔導」這兩個字。"],["主席：「輔導」已經有了，這樣OK嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：並輔導全國各……"],["主席：「並輔導全國各大專校院處理」，OK，這一案就修正通過，如果提案委員要補簽的話都可以。","我們現在進行臨時提案的第2案，提案人是吳沛憶委員，有無任何補充說明或意見？沒有，教育部要不要說明一下你們的修正？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員，也感謝提案的吳委員，我們同意倒數第2行修正為「一律應依個人資料保護法及其相關法規辦理」。"],["主席：針對教育部的修正，有沒有異議？"],["吳委員沛憶：沒意見。"],["主席：沒有意見的話，臨時提案第2案就照案通過，有委員要補簽的，可以到前面來補簽。","臨時提案第3案，伍麗華委員不在，陳培瑜委員也不在，我有一起連署，我並沒有要說明，教育部要不要說明一下補充的部分？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，謝謝委員、謝謝召集人。案由裡面修正為「1.參酌本席建議，請教育部會同原民會評估族語老師……」。"],["主席：好，教育部的修正，有沒有任何委員有意見要表達？沒有的話，我們就無意見，照教育部的修正通過，也跟剛剛一樣，各提案如果有委員要補簽，請到前面來，議事人員會詳細登載在議事錄。","接著進行質詢，請楊瓊瓔委員質詢，不好意思，讓你久等了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:09:35","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:03:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155570","委員名稱":"洪申翰","duration":575,"start_time":"2024-10-16T11:54:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df698593c71a1d67d75e73924a3e020b678a1766e2bcab8f8c7fc537dad2849ea99e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.15284375,"end":3.8278437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.792843750000003,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.872843750000001,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.93096875,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.04846875,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.714718750000003,"end":29.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.13596875,"end":41.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.37534375,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.813468750000006,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.69409375,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.439718750000004,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.970968750000004,"end":62.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.008468750000006,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.21909375,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.83471875000001,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.94409375000001,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.04471875,"end":74.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.06159375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.07846875,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.09534375,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.14596875000001,"end":74.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.19659375,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.02346875,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.52971875,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.69909375,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.98596875000001,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.25534375000001,"end":110.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.03471875000001,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.19284375000001,"end":1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局長請好 謝謝主席 洪委員好嗯 局長齁今年五月齁我跟幾位委員包括中加病委員跟沈博洋委員我們開了一場記者會那這個記者會的內容其實就是要去指出這個中國製的起重機這個配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況"},{"start":30.202,"end":47.98,"text":"那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局 航港局說這個啟動機的硬體是中國製的但軟體沒有中國製我們後來去問好像也是用這個這是航港局的說法那局長其實這個事情也引起了美國眾議院的關注所以他們就港口的啟動機的問題"},{"start":49.738,"end":68.952,"text":"美國的眾議院做了一年的調查在9月12號剛公布的報告裡面在這份報告裡面其實有寫說中國製的起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體局長這個額外的硬體你知道這個額外硬體是什麼你有看過這份報告嗎"},{"start":70.083,"end":98.14,"text":"我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容但我知道國際有在關注這個議題這個額外的硬體其實就是在後續維修時才裝起來的看起來是一個加強的設備所以在原本驗收出場的時候看起來是正常的可是它是在維修的時候再把它裝上去所以相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡當然它的說法是我要方便遠端維修但事實上它是可以回傳資料回去中國的"},{"start":99.22,"end":127.638,"text":"這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說：就算是非中國製的起重機：有可能它如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險"},{"start":128.519,"end":138.439,"text":"局長這是一個很大的風險可是就像你剛才回答我的你說你問了相關單位對不對你問了港港局他們說沒有聯網對 港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個"},{"start":140.824,"end":167,"text":"這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問"},{"start":169.079,"end":197.837,"text":"相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是"},{"start":198.097,"end":200.999,"text":"主要我想這事情可不可以請你在跟韓港局或者是我們這些"},{"start":227.037,"end":228.378,"text":"接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是"},{"start":255.473,"end":282.084,"text":"雖然我們很清楚知道臺灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫臺灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作"},{"start":283.516,"end":298.143,"text":"我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題"},{"start":300.673,"end":326.54,"text":"這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛同學在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員"},{"start":328.058,"end":354.995,"text":"如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎局長"},{"start":359.507,"end":387.543,"text":"這部分業管是交通部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交通部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業它中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升"},{"start":388.789,"end":412.102,"text":"可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌"},{"start":413.268,"end":442.841,"text":"對"},{"start":443.717,"end":473.178,"text":"所以局長你覺得該怎麼辦對同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度"},{"start":474.499,"end":494.498,"text":"要提出態度要告訴我們國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中"},{"start":496.226,"end":498.087,"text":"現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個 下面這部分"},{"start":525.926,"end":545.005,"text":"市長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,那就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。"},{"start":545.706,"end":572.937,"text":"學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:54:05 - 12:03:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":"155570","gazette":{"lineno":786,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時53分）謝謝主席，請蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，今年5月我與幾位委員，包括鍾佳濱委員及沈伯洋委員，我們召開了一場記者會，這場記者會的內容其實就是要指出中國製起重機配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況。之前我問過交通部的航港局，航港局說這個起重機的硬體是中國製，但軟體不是中國製。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們後來有去問，好像也是用這個……"],["洪委員申翰：這是航港局的說法。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，其實這件事情也引起美國眾議院的關注，所以美國眾議院針對港口起重機的問題做了一年的調查，在9月12日剛剛公布的這篇報告中指出，中國製起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體。局長，你知不知道這個額外的硬體是什麼？你有看過這份報告嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容，但我知道國際有關注這個議題。"],["洪委員申翰：這個額外的硬體其實就是後續維修時才裝起來的，看起來是一個加強的設備。在原本驗收出廠時看起來是正常的，但它是在維修時再裝上去，因此相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡。當然它的說法是要方便遠端維修，但事實上它是可以將資料回傳到中國的，這也是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個示警。這份報告甚至發現就算是非中國製起重機，如果它用了中國製的零件，送回中國維修時也可能被加裝額外的硬體，尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體。局長，我要請問你，港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統，而且是中國製的，你認為這個有沒有國安的風險？"],["蔡局長明彥：有被裝的話，當然是要注意的國安風險。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，這是一個大風險。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：但是，就像剛才你回答我說你問了相關單位，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：你問了航港局？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們說沒有連網。"],["洪委員申翰：對，航港局說沒有連網，但是就像美國眾議院說的，這個設備是可以額外再裝上去，而且具有傳輸能力。美國政府為了國家安全，現在編列了二百多億的美金，大概是六千多億臺幣，用來更換美國港口的這些起重機，他們也規定接下來要用自己本土生產的起重機，當然是因為意識到國安風險。因此，局長，我想問，相對於美國政府從國安風險的角度做這件事情，我們自己的國安單位對這個部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警？有沒有把這個當作是一個議題？還是等事件爆發了之後再找相關單位，但是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況？局長，你覺得我們該怎麼做比較好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個議題在上個會期也有很多委員提出指導，我記得鍾佳濱委員也向我提過這件事。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["蔡局長明彥：後續我們就是請航港局做一個全面的清查，他們已經將全面清查的資料提供給我們，應該也是與提供給委員的資料一樣，它提到的是設備沒有連網的部分。現在是針對有沒有附加的一些零組件是中共製作的產品，我想這個部分可能要再做更完整的盤點。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，關於這件事情，可不可以請你與航港局或是這些港務公司再做確認，有沒有像現在美國政府提醒的那個狀況？它一開始是沒有連網，但是透過維修、透過各種方式，後來被加裝上去的東西，至少現在美國政府的報告、美國眾議院的報告已經有這個提醒，我覺得我們應該要再積極檢視一遍。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該要的。"],["洪委員申翰：這個部分應該要做相關的調查，再弄清楚一次。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們再做一次。"],["洪委員申翰：接下來再與局長討論一件事，局長也清楚知道臺灣就是一個海島，我們有很多原物料都是走空運及海運，其中海運當然更是大宗。現在就有一個問題，幫臺灣海運的這些貨船也許因為成本考量或管理的問題而改用大量的中國籍貨船員，一旦臺海發生緊張狀況的時候，我們這些海運要怎麼運作？我們能不能控制住這些中國籍船員？他們會不會願意在兩岸遇到緊張狀況時幫臺灣運貨、工作、協助我們的物資輸送？你覺得這個會不會是一個問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：確實是一個要注意的問題。剛剛同仁也向我做過說明，我們有一個機制，對於中國船員的僱用及相關船舶公司是有一個審查的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：審查什麼？審查他對中國政府忠不忠心？還是在臺海發生緊張狀況時，他會願意為我們工作，你要怎麼審查？他就是中國籍的船員，當緊張狀況發生的時候，他會聽臺灣政府或是聽中國政府？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我知道委員的關切。"],["洪委員申翰：他會聽臺灣政府或是聽中國政府？那時候他還會幫我們運送物資嗎？局長，目前我們國籍商船的臺灣船員比例其實已經低於20%，而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員，你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎？局長？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分的業管是交通部，我們會再了解目前的運作機制，以及在風險評估上，業管單位交通部目前處理的方式是什麼。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我要提醒、現在我沒有要談國營事業罷工的事件、現在我不談勞動問題、現在我要談國安問題。我覺得如果我們沒辦法把這件事視為重要議題，包括我們的國營事業在內，我們就會放任中國籍船員的比例一直上升，可能包括自己的船、也包括FOC船，都是一直在上升，這個應該要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，同意。"],["洪委員申翰：因此，國安局應該要告訴航港局、甚至要告訴經濟部，我們對於這個作法是有疑慮的。現在就臺灣船員的角度而言，他們也感到很恐慌，因為他們一直覺得會被取代，但是我要說，就像這次美國港口的罷工事件，也影響到他們的物資運送，還好後來解決了。因此，針對這個供應鏈運輸韌性的問題，假設今天我們大部分被掐在中國籍船員的身上，我們沒有歧視，但我們確實會懷疑當問題真正發生的時候或是緊張發生的時候，他會為我們工作嗎？局長，你覺得該怎麼辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的示警，針對這個部分，我們會看政府運作機制中到底有沒有哪個部分要特別加強，以及萬一發生像委員所講的狀況，我們大概要怎麼樣處理。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我認為無論是國安局也好、國安單位也好，應該要有一個專案，針對現在海運中國籍船員的問題，可能會帶來的各種風險，應該要提出預警、甚至要提出態度，還要告訴我們的國營事業，先不談勞動問題，這樣做在安全上、在國安上是有高度的疑慮。從國安的角度、從供應鏈運輸韌性的角度而言，我們不希望是這樣發生，即便是現在這個狀況，中國籍船員的比例一直是在上升中，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會注意，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["洪委員申翰：我希望你能提出專案來處理這個問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我要再說一次，現在我們不談那個罷工的問題，但是相對應的兩個部分，請國安局研議全面清查我們的港口設施是否有中國製的監控設備，如何保障港口的安全。它可能不是破壞你的關鍵基礎設施，但它用一個額外的設施監控你的關鍵基礎設施，這是現在大家擔心的事情。第二個，下面這個部分，局長說願意用一個專案來處理，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：向委員說明一下，畢竟我們是情報機關，就情報機關的角度而言，可以針對這樣的威脅樣態做一些分析，以及示警到底有哪些預警的安危的狀況要特別提醒相關的業管單位。"],["洪委員申翰：是，局長，這是我現在希望你做的事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我們會處理。"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們相關的單位、如果我們的國營企業、如果我們的經濟部、如果我們的航港局，他們對這件事情沒有國安風險意識、他們沒有從國安角度去思考這件事情，所以今天我就是要請你們從這個角度去提醒、去了解，把這個當作是一個資訊，在彙整風險評估之後告訴他們，這是可以的或是不可以的、這是我們希望的或是不希望的。局長，這件事情就麻煩你了。"],["蔡局長明彥：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：我會繼續追這件事情，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，沒問題。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，局長請回。","接下來詢答的高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的是伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:08:19","end_time":"2024-10-16T12:02:06+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155569","委員名稱":"賴士葆","duration":499,"start_time":"2024-10-16T11:53:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df69f2bbe674ba1bb1958abd6de18eea4dbe1766e2bcab8f8c7f0b6a72c3f6e2b4145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.5372187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.11846875,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.480968750000002,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.25284375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.289718750000002,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.20096875,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.88846875,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2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這個去熊本"},{"start":206.397,"end":218.777,"text":"我們都很清楚那些媒體都把你講出來講的你來看一下人家講的我都聽你難堪了今天如果我是你的話被人家這樣修理到說你是回訪了對不對去熊本是不是回訪"},{"start":220.76,"end":247.516,"text":"報告這個委員我去熊本是幫助我們台灣到日本投資的廠商我替他們爭取更大的這個啊投資的這個福利那個你需要一定跨禮拜二跟禮拜五嗎這兩天都不來禮拜二到禮拜五這個東西秒數國會啊因為我在熊本談完了以後我要到東京去談在日本其他的這個投資的要件熊本行政什麼時候排的就行政什麼時候排的"},{"start":247.756,"end":247.996,"text":"所以這院長替你被罵啊"},{"start":268.462,"end":290.922,"text":"那我非常抱歉這個事情我們也不知道說那這個大宴會那麼時候在開會但是我確實是為了我們國家我們所有台灣的廠商在日本投資在爭取讓他在日本的投資可以得到更好的這個福利暑假之後什麼時候開會難道你不知道嗎都是9月22左右對但是報告委員日本來講的話我是與時俱進"},{"start":294.966,"end":320.803,"text":"我要強調一個部長阿來因為我時間快到了你不要一直吵阿部長我告訴你不要只想當官你要當官可以這麼愛當官你就好好地接受監督報告委員我不會想當官阿不會想當官你怎麼會我當官有什麼對我有什麼好處是啊有什麼好處人家叫我妹妹阿但是我今天來就是因為有一個使命我必須要利用我的專業讓我的經濟環境做得更好"},{"start":323.345,"end":323.605,"text":"臺灣有幾條的海底電纜"},{"start":348.927,"end":353.173,"text":"臺灣的海底電纜跟我這個命題沒有關係啊報告委員我這個海底電纜不是臺灣要來做的喔臺灣現在也不管誰做了臺灣有4條"},{"start":364.632,"end":385.14,"text":"這功能是不一樣的啊我告訴你10條最近5年36次的故障任何原因都可能海船的問題動物的問題都可能撞我在做的那個討論跟你現在在指教的這個部分是不一樣的命題報告委員你現在給我扯贏了齁我先告訴你"},{"start":387.196,"end":413.766,"text":"我現在告訴你,你如果要在外界高度質疑喔是不是已經有這個人員的廠商跑去菲律賓設廠了所以你啊搭他的船,搭他的路這樣走,跟你說我很難聽耶,部長啊這個大概是,這個我講話不夠精準啦齁那但是事實上都不是各位所想像的那個情境"},{"start":414.995,"end":440.546,"text":"那你告訴我們因為我時間到了我不要耽誤其他人的時間你告訴我當初的想法是什麼有突然冒出來這個東西想法就是我想我們現在在最近的看到這個新加坡從澳洲買綠電透過海嵐買了綠電4300公里英國買綠電透過非洲的國家買綠電4000公里所以那麼遠都可以買到了那你為什麼不從澎湖蓋個綠電廠從澎湖過來"},{"start":443.336,"end":451.403,"text":"我看到說你對這件事情你對其他委員說你道歉了你確定道歉嗎媒體寫的好幾個媒體都這樣是啊但是我想媒體可能我的溝通能力不夠所以媒體有點誤會啦你不要道歉"},{"start":469.67,"end":496.826,"text":"阿?你沒有道歉阿我剛才有在跟很多的委員都道歉阿都道歉了嘛所以媒體沒有錯我在這邊也跟委員您道歉照著您的誤會沒有我不希望你道歉我希望你把事情做好是謝謝現在感覺就是你事情沒有做好是一說就是我沒有謹言慎行這一點我非常抱歉一說就錯阿錯了就甩鍋就是這樣不可能唉真歹害啦謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:53:47 - 12:02:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155569","gazette":{"lineno":816,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時53分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請經濟部的郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。前幾天Google在美國跟核能新創公司Kairos Power宣布，它已經承諾要購買這家公司建造的7座SMR。這件事你知道了吧！"],["郭部長智輝：您是說Google要用SMR。"],["賴委員士葆：對，它要跟這一家公司Kairos Power買7座SMR。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們都有在關注新的能源技術。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在問你，今天有好幾個媒體頭版頭說你要在國外設綠電廠，這個其實就凸顯一件事情嘛！大家馬上直覺就想到經濟部長已經看到了，是經濟部長，而不是董事長而已，就看到了缺電嘛！我就問你，如果臺灣的一些資料中心（Data Center）有需要的話，你要不要提供協助，幫他們來想辦法也可以引進SMR？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我想政府對核能政策是開放的，經濟部除了關注國家的發展情勢，台電公司也持續在關注未來各項科技的發展……"],["賴委員士葆：我時間短，請你回答我你要不要提供協助，就這樣子。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會在三個條件之下啟動這樣的一個評估……"],["賴委員士葆：連SMR也要三個條件？"],["郭部長智輝：三個條件，第一個，確保核能安全；第二個，它的核廢料是可以處理的；第三，我們社會有共識。這三個條件之下，我們對這個命題是可以討論的。"],["賴委員士葆：這三個的話，部長，說了等於沒有說啦！大家都知道要核安，要核廢料處理，大家想也知道……"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["賴委員士葆：要有共識，大家想也知道，你說得嘴快破了，講這個東西都是多講的。","部長，原來你當經濟部長外界是高度期待的，覺得一個企業界董事長很瞭解企業的經營，來當經濟部長很好，有guts，甚至於大家會有一點多的期待，因為臺灣電不夠啊！你現在講去菲律賓，去日本，去哪裡，那個電都貴啊！核電最便宜啊！現在發現大家對你有一個不切實際的幻想，原來以為郭部長來了會解套，重啟核二、核三延役，結果突然發現不是，郭智輝部長就想當官，等於出賣自己的靈魂一樣，這些都不要了，就是想要當官。","你可以看喔！前幾天我在總質詢的時候你都不來，你去熊本，我們都很清楚，連媒體都把你講出來，你要看一下人家講的，我都替你難堪耶！今天如果我是你的話，被人家這樣修理……你是回訪嘛！對不對？去熊本是不是回訪？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我去熊本是幫助我們臺灣到日本投資的廠商，我替他們爭取更大的投資福利，所以我……"],["賴委員士葆：你一定要跨禮拜二跟禮拜五嗎？這兩天都不來，禮拜二到禮拜五，這個是藐視國會啊！真的是！"],["郭部長智輝：因為我在熊本談完了以後，我又到東京去談在日本其他投資的要件。"],["賴委員士葆：請問這個行程什麼時候排的？這個行程什麼時候排的？"],["郭部長智輝：兩個月以前。"],["賴委員士葆：兩個月以前，難道你不知道立法院要總質詢嗎？你不知道立法院要總質詢嗎？對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：那個時候我們沒有確定總質詢在那個禮拜。"],["賴委員士葆：明明就是吃定立法院，哪來的理由？這個東西……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我有請假，我是有請假的，我請假也經過我的院長同意，也經過立法院院長同意。"],["賴委員士葆：所以院長就替你被罵啊！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：非常抱歉，我們也不知道大院會在那個時候開會，但是我確實是為了我們國家……"],["賴委員士葆：查一下啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們所有臺灣的廠商在日本投資……"],["賴委員士葆：難道你不知道立法院每一年什麼時候開議嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我在爭取讓他們在日本的投資可以得到更好的福利。"],["賴委員士葆：暑假之後什麼時候開議，難道你不知道嗎？都是9月20日左右……"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：你故意選在那個時候不來，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，以日本來講的話，我是與時俱進啦……"],["賴委員士葆：我還要強調一個，部長，因為我時間快到了，你不要一直插話。部長，我告訴你，不要只想當官，你要當官可以，這麼愛當官你就好好地接受監督，你不願意接受監督，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我不會想當官啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不會想當官，你怎麼會……"],["郭部長智輝：當官對我有什麼好處？對不對？"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！有什麼好處？你來這裡被罵而已，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：但是我今天來就是因為有一個使命……"],["賴委員士葆：使命，都沒有啦！你什麼使命？你告訴我，什麼使命？"],["郭部長智輝：我必須要利用我的專業，讓我們的經濟環境做得更好。"],["賴委員士葆：你的使命就是電不夠要跑去菲律賓蓋，這個東西要去看一下啊！你知不知道海底電纜故障率多高？你知道嗎？海底電纜你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個有專家會去做，不是我去做。"],["賴委員士葆：我給你統計了，你連數字都不知道，隨便講，天馬行空亂講一通！"],["郭部長智輝：我這個不是亂講的喔！這個現在是整個世界的命題啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，臺灣有幾條海底電纜？"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣的海底電纜跟我這個命題沒有關係。"],["賴委員士葆：當然有關係，你要用海底電纜來送電啊！怎麼會沒有關係？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，我這個海底電纜不是臺灣要來做的。"],["賴委員士葆：不管誰做啦！現在臺灣有10條……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！就不是讓臺灣的廠商去做嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：不管是臺灣自己做，還是外面做……"],["郭部長智輝：這個功能是不一樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：你扯離開話題了。我告訴你，10條，最近5年有36件的故障，任何原因都可能，海船的問題、動物的問題都可能，平均1年7件。"],["郭部長智輝：我在做的那個討論跟你現在指教的部分是不一樣的命題，報告委員。"],["賴委員士葆：你現在給我扯遠了，我現在告訴你，外界高度質疑是不是已經有能源廠商跑去菲律賓設廠了，所以你要搭他的船、搭他的路這樣走，把你說得很難聽耶！部長，這個……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，大概是我講話不夠精準啦！但是事實上都不是各位所想像的那個情境。"],["賴委員士葆：那你告訴我們，因為我時間到了，我不要耽誤其他委員的時間，你告訴我當初的想法是什麼，突然冒出這個東西。"],["郭部長智輝：想法就是我們在最近看到新加坡從澳洲買綠電，透過海纜買了綠電，4,300公里；英國買綠電，透過非洲的國家買綠電，4,000公里……"],["賴委員士葆：你為什麼不直接……"],["郭部長智輝：那麼遠都可以買到了……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，你為什麼不在澎湖蓋個綠電廠，從澎湖過來？為什麼不要？澎湖海底電纜都現成的耶！"],["郭部長智輝：它土地太小了，土地太小。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼東西？"],["郭部長智輝：土地不夠來發那麼多的電。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你都看過了。我看到針對這件事情，你對其他委員說你道歉了，你確定道歉了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：媒體寫的，好幾個媒體都講，說你對講話不精準來道歉。"],["郭部長智輝：是啦！可能我的溝通能力不夠，所以媒體有一點誤會。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有道歉？"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有道歉？"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才跟很多的委員都道歉了。"],["賴委員士葆：都道歉了嘛！所以媒體沒有錯。"],["郭部長智輝：我在這邊也跟委員道歉，造成您的誤會。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！沒有，我不需要你道歉，我希望你把事情做好。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：現在感覺就是你事情沒有做好，想到什麼就說。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我沒有謹言慎行，這一點我非常抱歉。"],["賴委員士葆：一說就錯，錯了就甩鍋，就是這樣。"],["郭部長智輝：不可能。"],["賴委員士葆：很悲哀啦！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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all of the 8 major public stock banks."},{"start":547.821,"end":554.707,"text":"你覺得他們現在的營業狀況,他們的表現你滿意嗎?每一位都非常的努力,而且表現也不錯。"},{"start":556.437,"end":577.743,"text":"對,你都覺得很好其實你應該把思維調整一下為什麼國內的前三大的銀行、金控公司他們的EPS每年可以達到大概10甚至以前還超過10請問巴拉公股銀行裡面表現最好是哪一家"},{"start":579.861,"end":608.749,"text":"我們的兆豐也不錯我們的第一也很好兆豐預估今年的EPS有多少去年好了去年來請上好了董事長部長有的思維調整一下因為公股銀行他們薪水跟其他民間比起來差太多了好的人才都不留在公股銀行啦"},{"start":609.807,"end":634.397,"text":"董事長你好請問去年你說那個表現最好兆豐去年的EPS是多少我們實際上配的那個大概是一塊半左右現金鼓勵好那去年的話表現最好大概富邦吧富邦金控都一樣跟你們做同樣的業務差不多啦都銀行那去年的富邦他的表現怎麼樣"},{"start":636.632,"end":664.671,"text":"負幫配多少我不曉得不過我跟報告委員是這樣子啦雖然說我們都是銀行都是金控但是我們的業務上面還是有很大的差別比如說我們是以銀行為主我們金控是以銀行為主那他們大概都是以證券與授權為主他們相對銀行的規模並沒有像我們的銀行規模那麼大好你要講這個講到授權台銀也有授權公司啊那表現怎麼樣?證券南加公股沒有證券的"},{"start":667.947,"end":674.799,"text":"何庫也有證券啊?台銀也有證券啊?那表現的話跟富邦比起來差多少?"},{"start":676.85,"end":703.283,"text":"說真的,如果是以關股的證券公司來講還是以兆豐最大對,你們兆豐有證券那你為什麼不立志贏過富邦?不立志贏過元大?當然那是我們的方向,我們努力的方向對,要努力啦,因為你是第一名我也不忍再講太多啦但是有一點要讓部長知道比如說董事長的薪水你們在這個位置一年大概年薪有多少?"},{"start":704.554,"end":725.923,"text":"以你做例子來說的話應該不到一千吧多少不到一千萬那一千你不到一千萬那跟民營銀行差很多啦都兩三千萬了那我為什麼要待在公股銀行是不是所以部長這個是多年的結構問題喔"},{"start":727.594,"end":747.029,"text":"也請部長好好思考一下重金之下必有勇夫讓整個公股銀行的績效好好思考怎麼樣來提升你多賺一點然後給民眾的給所有的二十二縣市的不要再支出弊計了"},{"start":747.881,"end":768.078,"text":"要就給他大方一點,做一個快樂的財神爺好不好?是,中央也要維持一定的財政韌性是,還是要…所以請我們幫你想辦法好,謝謝委員,謝謝委員指教,謝謝好,接著我們請邱志偉委員花言五分鐘"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:45 - 12:01:34","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155568","gazette":{"lineno":795,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時48分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請莊部長？"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長，終於又見面了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["羅委員明才：上個會期討論到財政收支劃分法，我們發現22個縣市中，可以說富者越富、貧者越貧，長期失衡的關係之下，25年沒有修正的財劃法，這個會期總應該提出版本趕快進行修法吧？不曉得你們現在的作業情況如何？什麼時候提出？因為每個地方都嗷嗷待哺。"],["莊部長翠雲：財劃法這個部分，我們8月、9月已經開了兩次會議，積極溝通、協調地方政府對於指標的意見，第一次已經把八十幾個問題縮減為五十幾個，第二次會議的時候獲致更大的共識。相關應該納入的、有共識的部分，包含人口數、土地面積、營利事業的營業額等等，這些都要放進去。可是還有三個指標，大家有不同意見，也就是支出節流的努力、污染防制、再生能源等指標，這些要放或不放，各地方政府還有不同意見。","除了指標之外，還有權重、調整係數的部分還要進一步討論。我們認為雖然財劃法25年沒有修正，但是中央透過統籌分配稅款，還有一般性補助款，一直在挹注地方財政，同時透過計劃型補助款，讓地方能夠更好的發展。其實從數據來看的話，113年和105年相比，統籌分配款加上一般補助款已經成長46.7%，明年還會再增加900億元，他們並沒有嗷嗷待哺啊！"],["羅委員明才：部長，本席來自新北市，事實上新北市的人口有四百多萬人，是人口最多的縣市，我們獲得的補助平均下來是倒數的，敬陪末座，所以本席一直積極為新北市市民請命、爭取。這5年來當然有增加一點，但還是不足，經費還是不夠用！你看看侯友宜市長的規劃，每一年大概會多出500億元，即便經過本席不斷的爭取。你有沒有數據資料？從5年前到現在，新北市增加多少經費？今年度和去年比起來，會不會再增加？會增加多少？本席希望至少有一百多億元，但今年的金額還是不足。其實一百多億元看起來好像很多，但是29區平均下來，其實只有一點點而已啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：了解。羅委員來自新北市，當然為新北市民爭取更好的財源，這我們可以理解。但我們也想到，其他選區的委員們同樣也在為他的選區爭取，大家都強調各自有利的指標，比如新北市人口最多，這沒有錯，新北市的確是人口最多的縣市，但我們還要考慮人口的結構，因為部分縣市會說我們的人口雖然不是最多的，可是其中有65歲的年長者或者14歲以下的孩童，他們的施政成本是比較高的，而這部分在我們的結構中可能占比比較高。","例如土地面積也是一樣，土地面積大的，他認為我的土地面積最大，但部分縣市也會說，我們的土地面積雖然不是最大的，可是都是農地，而田賦又停徵，所以我們的地價稅等於沒有收入。各地方的地方政府以及民意代表們，我相信都會為他自己的選區爭取，這個時候我們必須去平衡，計算一個合宜、合理的公式。"],["羅委員明才：部長，你就如其所願，如果地方真的有需要，你就直接給他，因為中華民國並不是沒有錢。比如證交稅，現在是10月，但它9月就達標了吧？累計下來。"],["莊部長翠雲：9月底已經達到我們的預算數。"],["羅委員明才：已經達到了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：已經達到。"],["羅委員明才：是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：但是證交稅要看股市的成交量，這和股市的成交量很有關係。"],["羅委員明才：對。所以你遇到問題的話，大家都會幫你想辦法。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：比如當沖降稅。當初你們一直想著，如果實施當沖降稅，稅收會減少，但事實上實施當沖降稅這幾年來，你看看我們的證交稅是增加還是減少？就去年來說是增加多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實每年的證交稅徵收情況不一樣，這和成交量有關，有的時候是加，有的時候是減，落差幅度真的滿大的，我們這裡也有準備一個……"],["羅委員明才：例如去年增加多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年？您是說達成預算數，是不是？"],["羅委員明才：全部的稅收，證交稅的部分。"],["莊部長翠雲：關於證交稅的部分，要再查一下才知道112年的數據。"],["羅委員明才：本席算過了，當沖實施之前，每一個年度都增加。去年增加多少？前年增加多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：112年的實徵數是1,973億元，和預算數相比，成長四百多億元。"],["羅委員明才：和當沖降稅實施之前相比。"],["莊部長翠雲：當沖降稅實施之前，成交量只有700億元，連1,000億元都不到，證交稅的數字就更低了。"],["羅委員明才：低多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：105年的時候是708億元，106年是899億元，107年是1,011億元。"],["羅委員明才：所以相較之下，每一年分別多出300億元、600億元。"],["莊部長翠雲：到108年又只有900億元，還不到1,000億元。"],["羅委員明才：所以平均每一年大概多了三、五百億元，數字會說話。"],["莊部長翠雲：您看，那個數字變化很大，110年是2,700億元，但是111年只有1,700億元，所以還是要看市場的狀況。"],["羅委員明才：對，你不能用單一年期計算，與單一年期計算相比，倒不如全部加總後計算。和以前相比增加多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們要算一下，待會再提供。"],["羅委員明才：這個數字大家都看的到。所以現在的重點是，各縣市都欠缺經費，需要你們補助，但你們卻東扯西扯。事實上我們在這裡通過很多預算案，例如國防軍購，去年軍購增加多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是說整體的預算案嗎？這一筆不是編列在我們這邊。"],["羅委員明才：買軍火不眨眼，但是地方需要補助就支支吾吾說半天，部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有支支吾吾，我們的補助增加將近1兆元。"],["羅委員明才：部長，你就當一個樂觀、慷慨的財神爺，大家就是因為有需要才會提出，沒有需要就不會來找你嘛！如果你們真的缺錢就來找委員啊！我們不是提了很多案？例如當沖降稅，今天就要討論了。本席為了你們把時間延長，提案內容是5年，結果還被你們做掉。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：新的主委告訴本席5年，所以本席支持他，提案就寫5年，結果你們還是一樣，小氣的制度、小氣的心態又來了。那麼就不要5年，3年就好，為什麼不一次性、乾脆的，以比較快的速度處理？因為時間一眨眼就到了，過了3年之後，馬上又面臨是否再延期的問題。","金管會彭主委一直希望臺灣變成亞太資產管理營運中心，你們這樣做會讓國際資金很難安排，因為你們的稅變來變去，如果當沖降稅的年限直接延長久一點，他們也比較好安排，有利於全世界的資金集結在臺灣。其實還有很多、很多例子，部長，本席覺得你的思維應該要站在高崗上，包括八大公股銀行也是一樣，對於他們現在的營業狀況、表現，你滿意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：每一位都非常努力，而且表現也不錯。"],["羅委員明才：對，你覺得都很好。其實你的思維應該調整一下，為什麼國內前三大銀行、金控公司的EPS每年可以達到10%，甚至以前還超過10%？請問八大公股銀行表現最好的是哪一家？"],["莊部長翠雲：兆豐不錯，第一也很好。"],["羅委員明才：兆豐預估今年的EPS有多少？說明去年的情況就好，請董事長。部長，有時候思維要調整一下，因為公股銀行的薪水和其他民間銀行比起來差太多了，好的人才都不願意留在公股銀行。","董事長你好，去年你們的表現最好，兆豐去年的EPS是多少？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們大概是配一塊半左右的現金股利。"],["羅委員明才：去年表現最好的大概是富邦吧！富邦金控和你們做一樣的業務，內容差不多啦！都是銀行。去年富邦的表現怎麼樣？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我不曉得富邦配多少。雖然我們都是銀行、都是金控，但我們的業務還是有很大的差別，比如我們的金控是以銀行為主，他們大概都是以證券、壽險為主，相對的，他們的銀行規模並沒有像我們的銀行那麼大。"],["羅委員明才：好，說到壽險，臺銀也有壽險公司，表現怎麼樣？至於證券，哪一家公股沒有證券？合庫有證券，臺銀也有證券，表現和富邦比起來差多少？"],["董董事長瑞斌：說真的，如果是以官股的證券公司來說，還是兆豐最大啦！"],["羅委員明才：對，你們兆豐也有證券。那你們為什麼不立志贏過富邦？不立志贏過元大？"],["董董事長瑞斌：當然，那是我們努力的方向。"],["羅委員明才：對，要努力啦！因為你們是第一名，本席也不忍再說太多啦！但是有一點要讓部長知道，例如董事長的薪水，你們這個位置的年薪大概是多少？以你為例子。"],["董董事長瑞斌：應該不到1,000萬元吧！"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["董董事長瑞斌：不到1,000萬元。獎金等等全部加起來，大概是這樣，和民營銀行、金控差很多啦！"],["羅委員明才：領不到1,000萬元。民營銀行的副董都是兩、三千萬元，我們為什麼要待在公股銀行，是不是？部長，這是多年的結構問題，也請部長好好思考一下，因為重金之下必有勇夫。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["羅委員明才：好好思考怎麼提升公股銀行的績效，你們多賺一點，不管是給民眾，或是給22個縣市，就不要再錙銖必較了，只要他們需要就給，大方一點，做一個快樂的財神爺，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。但中央還是要維持一定的財政韌性。"],["羅委員明才：缺錢的話，請我們幫你想辦法。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好。接著請邱志偉委員發言，5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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楊瓊瓔發言 邀請部長 何部長"},{"start":14.802,"end":25.408,"text":"部長好,我們再繼續討論數字的問題勞保基金到明年累計撥補是2670億那對於撥補的部分我們認為還是有很多的累計撥補但是這個數字撥補進來但是我們的缺口還是有洞"},{"start":41.417,"end":55.626,"text":"未來退休的人口因為老年人口化的問題所以你的壓力會越來越大對不對所以因此本席提出2023年底你勞保基金跟你精算的負債是達到13.465億那你潛藏的負債也達到12兆多12.872億"},{"start":64.691,"end":89.472,"text":"如果說這個東東都不改那當然有一個數字告訴我們也就在2028年會有破產的這個狀況在這樣的情況之下本席要請教部長數字會說話這個數字告訴你因為以往我們在請問這個問題的時候都給我們一個統一的答案叫做什麼政府不倒勞保不會倒"},{"start":90.032,"end":113.391,"text":"的這樣空洞的喊話那您是有所作為本席不希望還是用這樣子的一個口號來告訴民眾因為政府有責任讓我們所有的這個老闆人員能夠得到安心所以本席要請教也就是在整個結構性的問題我們撲普他只有什麼是治標不治本"},{"start":113.991,"end":142.134,"text":"你撥補累進了那麼多但是還是一樣有空缺在那裡那您身為我們的勞動部長在這樣子的方式我相信你也認為只有以撥補撥補叫做改革這個我相信你也不認同這種口號所以本席要請教口頭上的讓勞工來做安心是絕對不會安心所以你願不願意將撥補入法"},{"start":143.635,"end":160.394,"text":"然後呢你要怎麼樣提出具體的長期債務的這個撥補計畫你要有一個統整的一個方向才能夠真正解決要不然你每一次都告訴我們政府不倒勞保不會倒請做說明"},{"start":161.636,"end":184.691,"text":"委員第一個我們到現在累計撥補是3870億啦對對那麼我們到現在的基金餘額是一兆一千億的餘額對不對意味著我們現在還有這麼多錢啦所以不用怕第一個就是說那你老公朋友先不要擔心啦那第二個就是說您講的撥補入法事實上我們過去都有提出"},{"start":185.952,"end":210.611,"text":"只是送到立議院都沒有完成修法所以這就代表在立議院的各黨派我們不知道他們能不能只是就撥補來達成那你要溝通啊對啊你要溝通啊你今天新有所屬行政部門所制定出來的就是希望能夠達證成功啊對不對那你明知道是如此那每一屆都是如此"},{"start":210.991,"end":221.641,"text":"我不希望你還是前屆前前屆一樣的部長啊以前還不稱部長欸現在位階提高是部長欸所以你更有這個權利有這個義務要去解決整體性的財政問題重點在這裏"},{"start":229.181,"end":231.183,"text":"你現在擔任部長你的版本送進來了沒有?"},{"start":244.67,"end":265.924,"text":"委員因為我們這個勞保撥補的入法他必須還要這個我們會來整個來審慎的來討論然後在這裡都有錄音錄影我們希望大家負責任的態度好不好好不好你剛才說是立法院沒通過但是你上任了之後你說你一定全力支持你也知道問題點如果關"},{"start":268.085,"end":295.958,"text":"這個源頭沒有解決永遠都是在那邊暈讓民眾不安心所以你有沒有預計要將這個入法提到立法院在你擔任部長我們會來處理會來處理喔多久時間呢那委員因為我們這個你問我一個權力支持的撥補入法的問題我們還必須考慮到其他層面的問題啦那麼我們會來處理這樣子你有沒有KPI你預計多久可以送來半年一年還是多久有一個指標"},{"start":297.705,"end":297.905,"text":"您會來處理是多久?會來得及嗎?還是明年?"},{"start":327.905,"end":328.907,"text":"我給你時間趕快努力去做好不好"},{"start":344.347,"end":344.827,"text":"外送員專法"},{"start":359.758,"end":385.562,"text":"外送員的專訪你認為你認為現在目前為止六都六都有相關的自治條例我們現在也有一萬五千名顯性的顯性的外送員在這樣情況之下你今天的報告只有說你持續推動外送平台業者與外送工會對話平台那你支不支持外送人員權益保障法"},{"start":388.188,"end":405.326,"text":"委員這個專法的問題我剛剛已經講過了我們必須考慮它是不是有效的立法啦那麼因為我你說專法必須考慮有效表示你是不認同的喔還是你是認同說我要提一部有效的專法這是你部長的職權欸"},{"start":412.553,"end":433.659,"text":"委員因為外送平台最主要就是說我們在外送平台這個新興行業我們有沒有辦法有效的對它進行管理你是部長你不要忘記你是政府勞動部部長我只能管到外送員我管不到外送平台這樣會變成一個無效的立法所以你告訴我們說你持續推動嘛這是你的報告書上面寫的欸"},{"start":439.58,"end":439.6,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:21 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是過程當中必須要做相關必要的風險的控管所以我希望內部會議你不用跟我講你們講什麼但我希望你們要注重這個所謂的因為兩岸缺乏溝通了但如果有所謂的軍演變成擦槍走火SOP該怎麼辦"},{"start":228.348,"end":255.954,"text":"我們該如何降到最低我們該如何把這個誤會當下馬上處理這是很重要的一個SOP內部你們有在研議嗎國防部這邊對於共軍基建進階的一個應處的程序都有一套SOP那這套SOP是經過長年的一個運作的經驗所制定的套SOP那這個SOP現在看起來因為對岸也封鎖跟我們拒絕溝通嘛那這SOP你覺得還有用嗎 有沒有需要很精進"},{"start":256.654,"end":257.074,"text":"我知道﹖"},{"start":274.701,"end":297.314,"text":"我知道剛剛你就有講了嘛24海里是我們絕對要堅守的那我現在就是說未來所發生的ABCDEF聯合利建這樣子的軍演次數增加的時候我們在沒有溝通管道的情況之下SOP能夠避免擦槍走火一定要再精進一定要再研議一下這個部分那最後我想請問一下目前國安局的情資中共對台動武"},{"start":297.794,"end":310.447,"text":"是否有相關的情資又是幾年內會發生有沒有這樣子的條件這樣子的啟動你們有沒有這樣的情資跟委員說明一下就中共目前我們看的各種情資並沒有情資來證明它即將在台海發動戰爭立即要發動戰爭沒有沒有這樣的情資"},{"start":316.653,"end":320.218,"text":"局長辛苦了我們持續來努力加油這經過我剛說的擦槍走火一定要避免全面捍衛中華民國我們一定認同好不好好謝謝我們的局長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:47:56 - 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有請國安局的蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 賴委員好局長你好請問你台灣的軍力在全世界排名第幾看不同機構有不同的指標你隨便講一個都有 我看過的最強的 最前面的排名"},{"start":28.895,"end":37.142,"text":"我的印象應該大概在十幾左右我的印象我不知道有沒有最新的資訊我們的經貿實力大概十幾你知道嗎經貿實力"},{"start":52.918,"end":76.748,"text":"現在好像台灣是第22大經濟體吧第16第16用到18那我原來以為說我們軍事大概人家ranking也大概16左右請問以色列第幾以色列的軍力全世界軍力第一名是不是第一名美國第二名呢第二"},{"start":88.37,"end":116.211,"text":"對阿我剛講的意思是我的印象已經是之前的前幾名大概不外就是美國啦齁俄國中共這些國家大概都這些國家大概會因為指標的不同會順序會有調整我沒有什麼陷阱給你啦就是我們問很前線的問題阿對但我的印象是之前的印象對就是如果沒有含核武第二名是老共啦如果含核武第二名是俄羅斯啦就大概這個樣子啦齁"},{"start":117.532,"end":142.924,"text":"那以我們這樣子我們不管是30、60、80、20的台灣也不會有外賣啊啊為什麼就立憲2024年這樣叫做世界的這樣要脖子給我們繞到在那裡你給我們賣穿整個我們都是談評啦我們要做什麼事你不是說哎呀我跟你Lock allLock住馬上所有的大台抓台"},{"start":144.301,"end":170.64,"text":"變成我們的國防部國安單位變成一個補報員怎麼會這個樣子阿都閃停阿你看這個沒有國防部都有他的一個應酬的機制都有沒有我沒有不是所謂應酬老百姓看到說他越來越靠近了2028沒有這麼靠近就2020比縮起來阿真的像勒住或者雷住都可以勒住那種感覺阿對不對台灣老百姓不舒服阿"},{"start":171.718,"end":176.304,"text":"對中共對台的脅迫這個臺灣社會沒有人會接受但是問題你們是政府單位啊臺灣人民把這個所有的記"},{"start":187.318,"end":196.28,"text":"委員說明那是情報情資的部分情報情資的部分我們當然盡可能透明化讓社會可以了解中共軍事動態這一部分國防部已經有一個對外說明的機制但是應處的部分國防部絕對有調動我們相關海空兵力以及鋼海巡署署長也特別強調了"},{"start":215.125,"end":241.375,"text":"沒有啦 因為我時間有限 我們的主席都很嚴格的齁 我趕快把他講完 我告訴你 老闆現在看到的時候 來 他給我跑來一英尺 我把他擋回去 一英尺 按著釣 結果不是勒步步進逼 現在2020 A 2020 B 過來萬里有嘻 越來越慫越來越慫 我們沒辦法做任何事情 這是老百姓所擔心的啦"},{"start":241.735,"end":243.016,"text":"請問你這一次他提早收兵"},{"start":281.523,"end":296.256,"text":"中共在進行對台軍演我剛才跟其他委員做說明了不是只有用兩岸的框架在看他必須要考慮到區域跟國際政治所以各種因素我相信他都會列入評論他提早收兵是不是不願意有沒有這個選項"},{"start":298.038,"end":309.133,"text":"臺海不要變成美國的十月驚奇因為他們11月要投票了October surprise他不要變成這個題目各種可能性都有包括到"},{"start":314.881,"end":317.163,"text":"我可以說國安局長相信認為台海不願意老公不願意變成"},{"start":339.725,"end":357.595,"text":"這是委員的說法這是委員的說法但我跟委員說的是中共在進行軍演他的評估不是只有兩岸的問題他必須要有全面國際跟區域政治的一個評估這是我的觀點我很喜歡來問你可是你每次都不給答案這個東西很難我輸我不知道答案我不知道點那個養豬我頭皮癢你就給我抓手都不好"},{"start":365.8,"end":369.51,"text":"我頭在這裏啊你都給我裝熟了轉移也是會不會走啦謝謝賴委員好局長請回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:41:32 - 11:47:44","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":"155564","gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時41分）謝謝主席，有請國安局的蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：局長，你好。請問你，臺灣的軍力在全世界排名第幾？"],["蔡局長明彥：看不同機構有不同的指標。"],["賴委員士葆：你隨便講一個。"],["蔡局長明彥：都有，我看過的……"],["賴委員士葆：最強的、最強的、最前面的排名？"],["蔡局長明彥：都有啦！都有，而且針對陸海空軍各種都有。"],["賴委員士葆：幾名？幾名？幾名？第幾名？"],["蔡局長明彥：根據我的印象，The Military 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something啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，委員，國防部都有它的應處機制。"],["賴委員士葆：我們老百姓只看到它越來越靠近耶！2024-A沒有這麼靠近，但2024-B就整個束起來，真的是整個勒住都可以，那種勒住的感覺讓臺灣的老百姓不舒服啊！臺灣老百姓不爽啊！對於老共的軍演不爽啊！對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，中共對臺的脅迫，臺灣社會沒有辦法接受。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有人會接受啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，沒有人能接受。"],["賴委員士葆：問題你們是政府單位啊！臺灣人民把所有希望都寄託在你們身上，你們就要讓我們看到你們有能力因應，但現在我看到的是你們就像播報員，現在飛機有幾架、軍艦有幾艘，這樣而已耶！只告訴我們這樣而已耶！"],["蔡局長明彥：向委員說明，那是屬於情報、情資的部分，關於情報、情資的部分，我們當然是盡可能的透明化，讓社會可以了解中共的軍事動態，國防部針對這個部分也已經有一個對外說明的機制，但是應處的部分，國防部絕對有調動相關海空兵力，以及剛才海巡署署長也特別強調，整個過程動用的海巡署船艦比海警船還多。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！局長，我的時間有限，而且主席是很嚴格的，所以我們要趕快把它講完。我告訴你，老百姓要看到的是它越過1英呎、我們就要擋回去1英呎，這樣才對啊！結果並不是，步步進逼，從2024-A到2024-B，萬一之後還有C，越來越接近，我們卻沒辦法做任何事情，這是老百姓所擔心的啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：國防部都沒有讓這些船艦進入我們的24浬，完全沒有！"],["賴委員士葆：但是比以前緊了啊！有沒有比以前緊？我問你，有沒有比以前緊？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一直沒有讓他們進入24浬。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有錯，確實是沒有進入24浬，但是比以前緊了。"],["蔡局長明彥：看是與以前的什麼時候比，當然它是有可能步步進逼。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，與2024-A相比，有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們歷來的聯合戰備警巡本來就是要抵進我們的24浬作為施壓，確實是有這樣的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，這次它提早收兵了，有人說是虎頭蛇尾，是不是過程中有美國的力量在背後？有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：關於中共的對臺軍演，剛剛我也向其他委員做過說明，不是只有用兩岸的框架在看，而是必須要考慮到區域與國際政治，所以我相信它會將各種因素都列入評估。"],["賴委員士葆：它提早收兵是不是不願意，有沒有這個選項？也就是臺海不要變成美國的十月驚奇，因為他們11月要投票了，October surprise，它不要變成這個題目，有沒有這個可能？"],["蔡局長明彥：各種可能性都有，包括……"],["賴委員士葆：就是這個、就是這個，key point。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，都有、任何可能性都有。"],["賴委員士葆：這個、這個。"],["蔡局長明彥：還有其他的可能性，甚至包括10月10日到12日剛好是東協峰會，那個時間點也不適合大動干戈在這邊軍演，而且東協峰會中大家都質疑中共在南海的擴張，所以它會根據各種情勢作最後的判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我可以說國安局長相信、認為老共不願意臺海變成美國選舉的十月驚奇？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這是委員的說法、這是委員的說法，但我向委員說的是，中共進行軍演評估的不是只有兩岸的問題，必須要有全面國際與區域政治的評估，這是我的觀點。"],["賴委員士葆：我很喜歡來問你，但是你每次都不給答案。"],["蔡局長明彥：我會盡量回答，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：這個邏輯讓我們都不舒服，你知道嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會啦！盡量回答。"],["主席：他怕被你下標啦！委員，謝謝啦！"],["賴委員士葆：得不到答案就像找不到那個癢處，我的頭皮癢，結果你幫我抓手，這樣就沒效啊！我的頭在這裡癢卻幫我抓手啊！"],["主席：轉移也是會不癢的，謝謝賴士葆委員，局長請回。","接下來進行詢答的是羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-16","影片長度":"00:04:51","end_time":"2024-10-16T11:53:20+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155563","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","duration":291,"start_time":"2024-10-16T11:48:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9cb36b9643c5df692291f648b9c60982ba4b17f6040cd0391766e2bcab8f8c7fe719f831ea1415b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.77346875,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.707843750000002,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.500968750000002,"end":19.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.09534375,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.934093750000002,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.23096875,"end":60.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":77.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.01596875,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.96846875,"end":110.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.69721875,"end":142.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.53596875,"end":150.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.15971875,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.27784375000002,"end":148.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.67846875,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.04534375,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.88909375,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.45409375,"end":154.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.81971875000002,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.24221875,"end":187.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.54971875,"end":192.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.13096875000002,"end":237.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.44096875000002,"end":240.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.57596875000002,"end":239.23409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.49971875000003,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.78596875000002,"end":258.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.31659375,"end":251.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.26909375,"end":267.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.03596875,"end":279.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.46409375,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.69596875,"end":286.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.27721875000003,"end":287.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.34471875,"end":287.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.76221875000005,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.92659375,"end":291.32721875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.799,"end":0.939,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":15.751,"end":42.05,"text":"委員好是我想這個在教育界最近有一個新的判決其實蠻傷心的就是上一次有關戈井案的部分男孩子判了9年女孩子判了8年這是一個悲劇但是這些孩子在他的成長過程中可能有很多的問題我們在學校沒有發現或者是家庭也沒有辦法及時的處理才會造成這麼大的悲劇所以部長"},{"start":43.291,"end":60.018,"text":"我想站在教育主管機關的立場那現在我們可能孩子會接受到各種不同的資訊包括電視節目包括網站那目前為止法令面的管制或者是對於孩子們接觸這些相關的資訊我們覺得我們管制的好或不好"},{"start":62.011,"end":79.629,"text":"我想確實現在越來越多的一些研究證據認為智慧型手機和短影音對青少年跟幼兒會帶來許多情緒負面的一些發展跟影響所以部長我今天要講的是我們在電視節目分級有處理辦法"},{"start":81.03,"end":109.583,"text":"但是我們在所謂的APP網路智慧社群網站或者是透過現在所有的這些社群軟體的演算法他會給他們各種不同相關的資訊不斷的推播在2022年的華爾街日報做了很清楚的研究你用機器人上去搜尋跟你搜尋到什麼他就推播給你什麼你停留在賭博網站他就一直推播賭博的資料給你你停留在"},{"start":110.763,"end":112.344,"text":"所以部長我們如果假設我都知道問題是所在"},{"start":130.72,"end":142.493,"text":"那在教育現場或者是說在我們校園裡面能夠做的對於影響周邊學生學習的這些相關的APP我們有沒有可能做一些了解跟做一些管制?"},{"start":144.301,"end":165.187,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個兒童跟青少年所有的年輕朋友的一個發展因為這個演算法已經超出我們的控制了因為原來是一個商業模式但是因為這樣的一個演算法確實它就會誠如委員剛才所提的這些的問題它就不斷的在對特定的一些而且重複再重複防護的"},{"start":167.148,"end":167.548,"text":"其實有一些家長隔離的功能"},{"start":192.83,"end":196.312,"text":"我只要一個要求根據這些已經知道的狀況我們怎麼樣對於學生現在至少他所攜帶的電子設備當然學校有可能上課的時間會收起來"},{"start":209.9,"end":237.426,"text":"但是這種APP我們是不是訂出一些使用的指引比如說哪一些原則可以給家長一些指引哪一些APP我們可以在某個程度讓他做一些家長可以監控像我的朋友他就13歲的女兒每天只能用兩小時紙上的網站都會被限制但是一樣要回到跟家長一起共同來做一些管控否則你在學校管了回家不管其實還是一樣"},{"start":238.63,"end":240.972,"text":"謝謝委員的建議,我想那個我們應該來做的"},{"start":262.492,"end":262.552,"text":"部長請回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:29 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{"start":366.499,"end":390.931,"text":"利益的稅制上面去做調整那其他更不用講我們提案不只我好幾席立委我們提案我們提要對中小企業加薪的部分減稅投一個反對的又是你啦好啦我今天再跟你提另外一個議題你有帶九大公營航庫董事長、總經理來嗎我先前在講說"},{"start":396.141,"end":422.919,"text":"我對於這薯條三兄弟啊這三大租賃公司他們的惡行惡狀我就不講我講說他跟我們公營行戶借款齁這個部分連審計部的報告裡面人家他也他觀點跟我都一次他在檢討這個我就講裡面的一點就好他說啊"},{"start":424.735,"end":446.732,"text":"公營航庫貸款給薯條三兄弟的說利息最低的利息只有0.95%部長你問一下那個九大公營航庫站起來我看一下好不好誰貸款給薯條三兄弟0.95%誰啦哪一家自己舉手"},{"start":452.804,"end":478.205,"text":"審計部查的啊審計部的報告時間暫停九大公營航空有沒有來有沒有來有來你站起來好不好你們查一下啊哪一家沒那麼低審計部講的啊所以我才問我在執行的時候我還幫你們講話說欸你們吼"},{"start":482.631,"end":503.027,"text":"一、六、五趴這個就已經超低啦為什麼你借他一、六、五趴鼠條三兄弟去借二十趴給我們需要錢的民眾他們是吸血高利貸耶公營安庫這麼做叫做助紂為虐"},{"start":504.414,"end":513.938,"text":"好了現在我說的1.65人家審計部說沒有利率是0.介於0.95啦有啦高一點"},{"start":518.257,"end":540.028,"text":"你們借高一點有到4%、5%啦那個部長你怎麼說你回去查查好不好我們這裡也有資料但是到6月在6月的話都是2、2.5左右以上的沒有到0.9的對啦那個我說1.65以後我自己看了資料我查到最低的啦第一銀行是不是還是台銀1.11啦現在審計部的報告你們說0.95"},{"start":547.728,"end":564.215,"text":"所以部長你還寫一份我要求署條三兄弟的事情你還寫了一份你是來質疑我是不是你說王委員質詢內容將不同年度之年均年平均動用金額相加起來簡單講啦公營航空借了1450億給"},{"start":572.909,"end":594.262,"text":"屬條三兄弟去放高利貸這是事實九大供應安庫你們董事長、總經理都換新了啦我希望你們回去因為這先前不是你們幹的所以你們回去好好檢討這些事情千萬不要助紂為虐好不好九大之後你們幾個站起來其他呢"},{"start":596.738,"end":617.631,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八九位齁我少算請坐請坐那個部長你請回來你把我剛講的這些你帶回去好好想一想啦謝謝委員那個金管會來金管今天主委請假齁副主委一樣一樣那個副主委委員好"},{"start":622.498,"end":651.055,"text":"講到薯條三兄弟齁那時候你們有到我研究室來我們現在用一個最新的方式啦齁就是說從金融消費保護法那麼從這邊先來做起那就是找薯條三兄弟商量就是請他要接受金融消費保護法的約束你說要去找他們談給薯條三兄弟一個重量的機會啦"},{"start":652.642,"end":676.41,"text":"那結果去談的怎麼樣?是,那我們有先請理事長邀這三家公司到我們會來談那目前為止的話我們的這個執法這邊的也在草擬當中那當然還是會有一些反彈但是我們就跟他講那個這個東西是社會的公益我們要管的目前為止這只是一個過渡將來還有專法"},{"start":678.251,"end":693.43,"text":"所以寧願現在進來我們也會其實讓他們在這個所謂的這個在借款這方面如果他們願意進來我們也會有一些比較適當的輔導措施我簡單講就是給他重量的機會他現在還拒絕就對了"},{"start":695.049,"end":713.63,"text":"那就是非得我們因為我們立法我們現在好幾位我們都在寫融資注定公司管理法那因為本會期是預算會期我們怕這個案子要通過可能還要再更久一點的時間所以才會妥協說要不然先用這個法去約束他們"},{"start":714.511,"end":734.994,"text":"你最短時間內把這個具體看談判的過程結果怎麼樣給我好不好主席不好意思我最後再一分鐘那個我們現在大的政策方向我們國家要成立我們要作為亞太金融中心這個非常好可是"},{"start":735.919,"end":750.849,"text":"那個副主委你記不記得我提過亞太金融中心我們就是希望亞洲各國尤其東南亞大家把錢來到我們台灣投資讓我們台灣來管理可是我當時就點"},{"start":752.605,"end":762.074,"text":"我說我們國家的受險資金可動用資金餘額32兆裡面有70%有22兆"},{"start":768.34,"end":782.931,"text":"是買國外的債券跟基金我們希望管別人的資金結果自己的錢一百塊裡面七十塊是給別人管然後再成立什麼很奇怪囉我們自己承認說國外的比我們更好"},{"start":789.738,"end":814.546,"text":"有人逼我們好我們就不是最好不是嗎那我們找誰來投資我們來在我們這邊做金融營運中心這不是矛盾嗎更何況這70%很多都已經曝顯了戰爭的風險俄國的部分匯率的風險各國都有一些匯率的風險所以我一再的講"},{"start":815.626,"end":829.842,"text":"我們應該每一年至少3%到5%趕快引導他們回來投入我們國內需要的公共建設我們國內的公共建設除了看得到的"},{"start":830.683,"end":854.322,"text":"社會住宅、交通設施、捷運、鐵路以外我們還有長照我們還有那麼多長照設服機構需要列入公共建設的資金來幫助好不好我希望你把這些話聽下去這是這會期我後續會再跟你們來追蹤的好不好是謝謝委員指教我們一定努力好謝謝"},{"start":857.557,"end":858.118,"text":"接著我們請羅明財委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:34:14 - 11:48:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":"155562","gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時34分）謝謝主席，請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長，你從上任到現在，的確是有認真的一面啦！不過本席要用四個字來定義你，就是恃寵而驕。前一任內閣拍過畢業照後，大概都走了，你是少數難得留下來的一、兩位，但就因為你被留下來，所以你可能覺得自己表現的很好、有特殊才能，所以獲得肯定被留任。本席說你恃寵而驕是什麼意思？因為恃寵而驕衍生而來的，就是墨守成規、抱殘守缺，就這麼簡單。","本席拿稅制來說就好，關於稅制，之前已經向你提了很多次，我們有很多不合宜的稅制，像娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅、機車貨物稅、保健品關稅，這些都是現在最被社會詬病的，本席相信你也很清楚啊！之前已經和你談了一個會期，要求你針對這五大不合時宜、應該調整的稅制做一些調整，但是你馬上回答，委員，這要先找到替代財源。","本席現在請問你，6年前的富人稅，就是所得稅的最高級距45%，那一年不曉得怎麼搞的，可能風大了一點，結果就取消了，請問富人稅的替代財源在哪裡？你找到了沒有？根本沒有！但你們不是取消了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我能說明嗎？第一個，所得稅這個富人稅……"],["王委員世堅：本席是先告訴你，還沒有讓你回答啦！本席觀察你很久了，你就是那樣的態度。本席告訴你，如果你只是要守住這些稅收，讓它一毛都不少，或者墨守成規，這些國產通通不要動，坦白說，你的位置叫賦稅署長來做就好啊！叫國庫署長來做就好啊！甚至讓101董事長來做也可以啊！至少101董事長夠年輕、有衝勁，不是這樣嗎？他願意嘗試嘛！願意把立法院的聲音聽進去，然後好好研究，不是嗎？你聽了一整個會期，但本席認為你就像沒聽到一樣。","本席不懂啦！本席不懂你是什麼樣的心態。上個會期本席說要送你一個十字架，這個十字架的橫批是國產，直批是稅收，你的態度就像現在一樣，誰都休想搶走我的十字架，你就是這個態度。但是現在社會需要的是很多創新和改革，比方稅制，你知道嗎？我們有1,400萬輛機車，每年增加20萬輛，機車貨物稅平均下去，每輛機車差不多要課25,000元到30,000元的稅金。","可是機車是現在年輕朋友們、上班族、送貨族最需要的交通工具，而且是他們的生財工具，結果機車的價格這麼高，現在買一部機車隨隨便便就要七、八萬元，就是因為這3萬元的稅金，這個稅金該降，但是你們不降。好，你說要找到替代財源，本席今天就要請問你，本席剛剛說的這些，包括印花稅、娛樂稅，好歹你們也要找學者專家來研究一下嘛！不是這樣嗎？你們應該研擬一些意見，或者提出對策，或者逐年調降，但是你們通通都沒做。","本席告訴你，今年的稅金，你自己說要收3兆1,500億元，這500億元先不說啦！零頭就不要說了，只說3兆1,000億元的部分就好，這和機車貨物稅50億元對比起來像什麼呢？就像你身上帶了3,100元，機車貨物稅只是其中的5元銅板，不是嗎？50億元就像5元銅板，你身上帶了3,100元，假如掉了5元銅板，你還懶得撿！因為你怕沾到水溝的水，不是這樣嗎？因為會弄髒手。","所以你根本就是沒有心，對你轄管的、這麼重大的，攸關全民福祉、利益的稅制做調整，其他的更不用說了。我們也有提案，不只是本席，有好幾位立委提案，對中小企業加薪的部分減稅，結果頭一個反對的又是你啦！好啦！本席今天再和你提另外一個議題，今天你有帶九大公營行庫董事長、總經理出席。"],["莊部長翠雲：有，通通都在座。"],["王委員世堅：先前本席說過，對薯條三兄弟，就是對這三大租賃公司的看法，他們的惡形惡狀，本席就不說了，本席只說他們向公營行庫借款的問題，這部分連審計部的報告也有提到，他們的觀點和本席一致，而且他們也在檢討這個部分。本席只提其中一點就好，它說公營行庫貸款給薯條三兄弟，最低利息只有0.95%。","部長，請你問一下，請九大公營行庫的人站起來，讓本席看一下，好不好？誰貸款給薯條三兄弟0.95%的利息？誰啦？哪一家？自己舉手。審計部查了，這是審計部的報告。時間暫停。九大公營行庫的人有沒有來？"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["王委員世堅：有沒有來？"],["主席：有。"],["王委員世堅：有來？請你們站起來，好不好？你們查一下是哪一家。"],["何董事長英明：沒那麼低。"],["王委員世堅：這是審計部的報告，所以本席才會提問。本席質詢的時候還幫你們說話，1.65%的利率已經超低，為什麼？你們借他們1.65%的利率，可是薯條三兄弟卻是以20%的利率借給需要用錢的民眾？他們是吸血高利貸，公營行庫這麼做叫助紂為虐。好啦！現在本席是說1.65%，但審計部說利率是0.95%。利率高一點的的確有到4%、5%，部長，你怎麼說？請你回去查一查，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們這裡也有資料，6月都是2.5%左右或以上，沒有到0.9%。"],["王委員世堅：對啦！本席說了1.65%這個數字以後，自己也看了資料，查到的最低一筆是第一銀行或臺銀的1.11%，現在審計部的報告是0.95%。部長，本席提出薯條三兄弟的事情之後，你還寫了一份報告質疑本席，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：不敢。"],["王委員世堅：你說王委員質詢內容將不同年度之年平均動用金額相加起來。簡單說啦！公營行庫借了1,450億元給薯條三兄弟放高利貸，這是事實。九大公營行庫的董事長、總經理都換新了，因為這是先前的事，不是你們幹的，所以你們回去好好檢討這些事情，千萬不要助紂為虐，好不好？請九大公營行庫的人站起來。怎麼只有你們幾個？喔！的確有九位，剛才是本席少算，請坐。部長請回，請你把本席剛才說的這些帶回去好好想一想啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：請金管會。今天主委請假，請副主委。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：副主委，說到薯條三兄弟，那時候你們有到本席研究室說明，現在是用最新的方式管理，就是從金融消費保護法做起，你們會找薯條三兄弟商量，請他們接受金融消費保護法的約束。你說要去找他們談，給薯條三兄弟一個從良的機會，結果談的怎麼樣？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。我們有先請理事長邀這三家公司到金管會來談，目前我們也在草擬子法當中。當然，還是會有一些反彈，但是我們也告訴他們，這是社會公益，我們是要管的，目前只是一個過渡，將來還有專法，所以寧願現在就加入。在借款方面，如果他們願意納入管理，我們也會有一些比較適當的輔導措施。"],["王委員世堅：簡單說就是給他們從良的機會，但他們還是拒絕。現在好幾位委員都在研擬融資租賃公司管理法，因為本會期是預算會期，我們怕通過這個案子可能需要更久的時間，所以才會妥協，先用這個法去約束他們。請你在最短的時間內，把談判過程、結果提供給本席，好不好？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，好的。"],["王委員世堅：主席，不好意思，最後再1分鐘。我們現在的政策方向就是要做亞太金融中心，這個非常好，可是副主委，你記不記得本席提過，關於亞太金融中心，我們就是希望亞洲各國，尤其是東南亞，大家把錢拿到臺灣投資，讓臺灣管理，可是本席當時就點明，我們國家的壽險資金，可動用資金餘額有32兆元，其中70%，也就是有22兆元是買國外的債券和基金，我們希望管理別人的資金，結果自己的錢，100元裡面有70元是給別人管，那要再成立什麼？這樣就很奇怪囉！","我們自己承認國外的管理比我們更好，既然有人比我們好，我們就不是最好的，不是嗎？那我們要找誰來投資？找誰到這邊做金融營運中心？這不是矛盾嗎？更何況這70%當中很多都已經暴險，有戰爭的風險，這是俄國的部分，還有匯率的風險，各國都有一些匯率風險。所以本席一再的說，至少每一年要有3%到5%，趕快引導他們回來投入國內需要的公共建設。國內的公共建設除了看得到的社會住宅、交通設施、捷運、鐵路以外，我們還有那麼多長照社福機構需要投入公共建設資金幫助，好不好？本席希望你把這些話聽進去，這會期本席會再追蹤，好不好？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，謝謝委員指教，我們一定努力。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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黃金計畫"},{"start":228.865,"end":228.985,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":247.853,"end":276.147,"text":"華倫溜冰不是屬於真金奪牌應該這樣講但是華倫溜冰田徑游泳其實在亞運的表現也是不錯所以我們是不是可以針對亞運有一個菁英培訓計畫呢跟委員報告這亞運的菁英培育計畫事實上是有的是有目前是有包含到這麼多項目都有嗎是的那非常好那之後我們可能再來討論一下這詳細的內容好不好也可以提供詳細的內容到我們辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":277.339,"end":286.802,"text":"可以嗎?可以把詳細的亞運的經營培訓計畫．有關亞運的一個培訓來講的話是針對亞運的項目都會有給他們一個培訓的計畫現在已經在進行當中那可不可以把相關的計畫我們可以約個時間來討論好不好"},{"start":297.785,"end":315.217,"text":"第二項問題是因為我們要發展運動部了其實我也關注到我們在過去有很多事情都交給協會來處理跟管理可是我們對協會的補助其實是年年增高那個補助的比例上面也是增加了非常多可是我們這幾年也非常"},{"start":316.857,"end":319.198,"text":"光這一年其實就有非常多協會的一些爭議那民間其實對於協會的一些制度改革上面也時常有一些聲音"},{"start":333.524,"end":334.365,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀"},{"start":352.466,"end":352.586,"text":"其實委員．"},{"start":391.114,"end":405.22,"text":"我想因為我們人數其實因為過去人手不足啦但是成為一個部之後我們的人力應該相對是充足的因為其實坦白說雖然教練是有回訓制度但是多少人回訓現在是沒有掌握的那再來就是說到底有多少的性平制度"},{"start":408.281,"end":431.879,"text":"好 謝謝那我們約時間來詳細做補充說明好了好不好因為時間不太夠那再來就是說齁頭錘禁令啦我想問一下齁因為其實是現在英格蘭跟蘇格蘭還有愛爾蘭甚至美國齁其實他們都有提出一個相關的叫做頂頭錘指引就是限制我們的年輕球員來學訓誒奇怪對不起我回到上一頁齁我好像跑掉了跑不出來喔可以好 謝謝幫我按一下"},{"start":435.58,"end":465.122,"text":"可以請部長跟署長看一下這個頭槌它是用這是一分鐘以內就出現了兩次頭槌這部分我們去年就已經有發文要求去做限制那這部分我們會再來了解抱歉因為署長我知道因為之前你有跟我講可是因為你知道我常常出現在足球賽場上所以我大概可以一場比賽我大概可以看到十次以上的頂頭槌那頂頭槌這個我們到底可不可以使用我覺得我們還是要有一個台灣自己的版本"},{"start":465.362,"end":490.77,"text":"因為在國外已經有太多的研究證明他其實傷害腦部的發育會讓孩子未來可能會出現認知的障礙然後甚至也比他們可能頭垂的頸頭部的傷害也是非常嚴重的所以其實相關的國家都已經有一些指引了台灣應該也要有自己的指引來保護我們的孩子免於運動傷害所以我們到底是可以練習的時候使用但是不能比賽還是都不可以我覺得這個需要一個明確的指引來給我們的教練"},{"start":492.671,"end":493.693,"text":"謝謝委員我們一定會把這個辦法定出來而且"},{"start":508.051,"end":533.527,"text":"這一個嚴格的來希望各地方政府跟地方的這些教練能夠遵守因為確實幼兒的這個健康的發展在12歲以下裡面他洗多的腦部還確實還沒有一個非常充分的包括裁判的一個訓練我想我們都會都會來我想就是說到底因為世界上面有不同的聲音啦有人覺得是完全都不可以練有人覺得是可以練但是要正確的練習"},{"start":534.688,"end":551.296,"text":"所以我覺得台灣要有自己的標準那我覺得我們是不是可以邀請相關的專家來可能可以參考日本啦美國啊說是這個紐澳啊英國隨便我覺得是我們可以召集一個相關的專家學者會議來討論這件事情嗎可以嗎那我們預計什麼時候可以完成這個指引呢我們可以抓個時間點嗎"},{"start":559.787,"end":579.279,"text":"報告委員這個如果要訂出一個指引我覺得半年可能需要但是我們在兩個月之內我們就會至少會有一個初步的規劃出來兩個月之內的包括裁判的部分就您剛剛關心的裁判的部分的執法這個是我們馬上就可以要求但是至於訓練的部分我覺得需要一個時間去做相關的一個研究"},{"start":580.86,"end":601.489,"text":"我應該這樣講我的立場是說如果你要不要裁判執行或是到底要怎麼樣子的依序我覺得是你們可以跟專家來討論之後怎樣對台灣的孩子保障是最好的重點就是孩子的不能夠運動的時候在這麼小就造成了一身的傷害那最後因為時間有點不太夠了我想就跟"},{"start":602.409,"end":603.61,"text":"部長,您對於實驗教育及體制教育的看法是什麼?"},{"start":618.652,"end":635.163,"text":"我認為政府當然對這個國民教育裡面供給量、延待需求量我們應該鼓勵這個更多另類的這個學校的一個型態實驗教育應該被鼓舞能夠讓更多的小孩子能夠受益"},{"start":635.903,"end":635.923,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:37:17 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11:48:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案。）","id":"155561","gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時37分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。剛剛也有非常多委員關心戰時青年服勤同意書這件事情，其實我昨天也在一些群組裡面看到很多的騷動。但是就我自己在看這件事情的時候，因為我非常喜歡讀經濟學人，其實它今年一整年幾乎都在講一件事情，就是歐盟的軍購支出是不是有從原本GDP裡面的3%調到5%，因為俄烏戰爭之後，大家就在思考歐盟現在原本的戰備支出是不是太少？是不是應該要更多，讓國家有更好的自我防衛能力？我知道愛沙尼亞其實有相關的全民防衛課程，而我自己也在想，臺灣的一個特殊地位，我們的學生應該不是只專注於讀書這件事情，只專注於課業這件事情，也應該要了解當前的國家局勢。","其實我們在民國94年2月2日曾通過了全民國防教育法，並將它融入在108課綱裡面，為了增進學生對臺灣的認識，特別納入國家與安全生活、救災防災與動員以及反恐等任務，這也是因應世界趨勢的變化所做的一個調整。請教部長，在教育孩子認知自己國家處境方面，這些措施是否為必然的措施？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這些確實都是在人才培育裡面，必須要的一個措施；全民國防─自己的國家自己來守護，我想這是每個國家的國民應該有的基本責任跟態度。"],["張委員雅琳：好。第二個，就是我們在發放同意書的這件事情上，有沒有跟各縣市政府清楚的說明？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為過去我們依據的這個法令確實也已經超過20年……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["鄭部長英耀：過去是授權各高中職學校自行編組，這一次部裡邊是更善意的希望18歲已經有法定公民權的他可以自己來決定，然後16歲以上，因為高中職……"],["張委員雅琳：部長，不好意思，我想請教的是，我們在跟縣市政府溝通這件事情，為什麼這次會引起這麼大騷動，是不是有……"],["鄭部長英耀：在這個部分，它確實只是一個援例性、例行性工作的辦理；未來隨著社會的快速變遷，在行政上怎麼樣有一個更好、更細膩的作為，這是我們可以來精進的。"],["張委員雅琳：我們期待教育部可以有更仔細的說明與溝通，來讓大家了解，尤其世界局勢一直在變化，像我們也關心AI，關心各種東西，就是希望我們的孩子更有競爭力，未來可以跟其他國家的學生一起競爭，所以了解世界局勢也是非常重要的。其實在美國，他們有一系列書籍叫作十歲開始學政治、學理財，在這邊會告訴你，挑起戰爭有正當理由嗎？什麼叫做威權統治？各項的議題都在這個書裡面─從十歲開始學習。所以我覺得我們可能也要跟全民一起來溝通，因為這是一個世界趨勢。","接下來要進入我今天質詢的主題，本席非常關注我們的黃金計畫，黃金計畫的目標就是要針對我們這些爭金奪牌的菁英選手實施專業個人化的訓練，集中資源來給這些在奧運有機會奪牌的選手培訓上。其實現在有非常多的新興運動，有些運動像滑輪、溜冰，也許不屬於爭金奪牌的項目，但滑輪、溜冰、田徑、游泳在亞運的表現也是不錯，所以，我們是不是可以針對亞運有一個菁英培訓計畫？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，亞運的菁英培育計畫事實上是有的。"],["張委員雅琳：目前有包含到這麼多項目嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：非常好，之後我們再來討論更詳細的內容，可以把詳細的亞運菁英培訓計畫資料提供給本席辦公室嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我請執行長來補充說明。"],["龔執行長榮堂：報告委員，有關亞運的培訓都是針對亞運的項目給他們一個培訓計畫，現在已經在進行當中。"],["張委員雅琳：已經在進行當中，我們可不可以約個時間來討論相關的計畫？"],["龔執行長榮堂：好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。第二個問題，我們要發展這個運動部，因為我們過去有很多事情都交給協會處理或管理，對協會的補助也是年年增高，補助的比例增加非常多；可是我們發現，不要說這幾年，光是這一年，就有非常多協會的一些爭議，民間對於協會的制度改革也常有一些聲音，而且還有性平案件。像我這段時間處理的一個案子，就是擊劍協會之前的一個邀請賽，有教練違反性平案件，也已經成案了，可是教練最後竟然還出現在會場中。後來跟協會在檢討的時候，我們覺得這就是一個很大的問題，協會說因為他是行政人員，但我覺得這也是一個敏感性不足的部分，未來在運動部成立之後，是不是可以把教練證相關的發放等等集中由運動部來管理？也就是對協會的管理還有教練的發放等等，是不是可以更全面的由中央來管理？"],["鄭部長英耀：運動部成立以後，對各單項協會的輔導管理，或對不適任的教練有更強的一些規範，確實也都是……"],["張委員雅琳：過去是因為人手不足，但是成為一個部之後，我們的人力應該是相對充足的；雖然教練有回訓制度，但是有多少人回訓，現在是沒有掌握的！到底有多少的性平制度……"],["鄭部長英耀：這個是不是後續請署長更詳細的來跟委員做補充說明？"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝，因為時間不太夠，我們再約時間來詳細補充說明。有關頭槌禁令，因為現在英格蘭、蘇格蘭和愛爾蘭，甚至美國，他們都有提出相關的頂頭槌指引，就是限制我們的年輕球員來訓練，可以請部長跟署長看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["張委員雅琳：一分鐘以內就出現了兩次頭槌。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，針對這部分，我們去年就已經發文要求去做限制，我們會再來了解。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，我知道，因為署長之前也有跟我講，可是你也知道我常常出現在足球賽場上，一場比賽大概可以看到十次以上的頂頭槌；頂頭槌到底可不可以使用，我覺得還是要有一個臺灣自己的版本，因為在國外已經有太多的研究證明，它其實會傷害腦部的發育，孩子未來可能會出現認知的障礙，然後甚至對頸頭部的傷害也是非常嚴重的。相關的國家其實都已經有一些指引了，臺灣應該也要有自己的指引，來保護我們的孩子免於運動傷害。所以我們是練習的時候可以使用，但是不能比賽，還是都不可以？我覺得這需要一個明確的指引來給我們的教練；如果都不行的話，那麼裁判的訓練一定要嚴格執法，因為我到現在都沒有聽過一聲哨音，這個部分，我們是不是可以一個月……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我們一定會把這個辦法訂出來，希望各地方政府跟地方的這些教練能夠嚴格遵守，因為十二歲以下的兒童健康發展，他們的腦部確實還沒有一個非常充分的發展。"],["張委員雅琳：我們多久之內可以來找相關的……"],["鄭部長英耀：包含裁判的訓練，我們都會來規範。"],["張委員雅琳：因為大家對這件事有不同的聲音，有人覺得是完全都不可以練，有人覺得可以練，但是要正確的練習。所以我覺得臺灣要有自己的標準，我們是不是可以參考日本、美國、紐澳或英國的規定，召集相關的專家學者會議來討論這件事情，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會後再請體育署把標準訂出來。"],["張委員雅琳：預計什麼時候可以完成這個指引？我們可以抓個時間點嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，如果要訂出一個指引，我覺得半年可能需要，但是我們在兩個月之內，至少會有一個初步的規劃出來。"],["張委員雅琳：兩個月之內，一個初步……"],["鄭署長世忠：包括您剛剛關心裁判執法的部分，我們馬上就可以要求；至於訓練的部分，則需要一點時間去做相關的研究。"],["張委員雅琳：應該這樣講，我的立場是說，你要不要裁判執執行或是……"],["鄭署長世忠：比賽一定要先執行。"],["張委員雅琳：到底要怎麼樣子的依序，我覺得你們可以跟專家來討論，怎樣對臺灣的孩子才是最好的保障，重點就是不能讓這麼小的孩子在運動的時候，就造成一身的傷害。","最後，我想跟部長報告一個資訊，就是我們的實驗教育在這十年內從原本的1%來到10%，不曉得部長對於實驗教育跟體制教育的看法是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我認為政府當然對國民教育裡邊，供給量遠大於需求量時，我們應該鼓勵更多另類的學校型態，實驗教育應該被鼓舞，讓更多的小孩子能夠受益。"],["張委員雅琳：所以，部長的看法是實驗教育跟體制內教育其實都非常重要，都需要去支持的，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，未來我可能會再跟部長持續來討論，就是實驗教育的學生占比也是節節升高，儘管少子化，去實驗教育的人口卻越來越多，可是在實驗教育這一塊是完全沒有任何補助的，希望之後可以再跟部長持續來請教這個部分。謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝張雅琳委員的時間控制。","繼續請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":394,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-4","speakers":["范雲","萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","黃珊珊","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","李昆澤","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","李坤城","吳春城","高金素梅","徐巧芯","葉元之","羅智強","翁曉玲","廖偉翔","林思銘","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","黃國昌","劉建國"],"page_start":305,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有\n關教育部主管預算解凍案11案","agenda_id":"1138401_00018"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}