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不能調衡的三位協商,我認為民眾會有業會,我們要面對很多問題。"},{"start":2163.995,"end":2185.265,"text":"總之明天下禮拜會結束,我們希望預算能夠先行。接下來有關於法案,我們也照程序來處理沒有關係。也就是說韓院長可以再召集一個,照道理經負二讀,過去也可以委員會先協商一下,然後再請過水一下,請院長來協商。"},{"start":2187.226,"end":2209.009,"text":"今天既然已經到院長這邊來我期待就是說有關於選拔法院長主席協商一次沒有結論要怎麼處理我們就大家一起來面對況且這會期後面還有一些法案也必須要有固定的郵寄規則大概我的看頭就是講的是說"},{"start":2211.23,"end":2226.395,"text":"副總統都在對面,大家都是常常拭目相視,似是善意大家眼神都應該是期待有一個結果,今天不是要來學用,用就沒意思了,因為立法院根本沒有方釁"},{"start":2235.922,"end":2249.68,"text":"那對於院長、對於各黨團也非常不好所以今天加州的原則底下我先提出我一些看法我們看法不對的話或是信賴各位執政也沒有關係啦要談嘛"},{"start":2253.001,"end":2261.294,"text":"第一個當然重中之重在高雄市美在這裏原子能進化補償原子能進化補償從1982年神父時代就有了"},{"start":2269.342,"end":2297.433,"text":"當然為什麼要建法補償?因為有一些包括水源保護區、水庫等等150公尺內禁止砍伐所以有補償的問題那同時105年的時候通過法案也是原子能建法補償以及造林補助這兩個法是一起的所以他們讀書款都是從早期都兩萬塊一起的"},{"start":2298.694,"end":2307.968,"text":"當然也不能,後來有的話,簡東平議會提出來以後115年的時候,2015的時候,所以18號通過了,是變成傷害,這個我們認得"},{"start":2315.376,"end":2339.981,"text":"因為現在當然有人提案有五萬的有六萬,後來表決是六萬嘛我這邊看法就是說,我們先從一個法治國的概念來談啦我們所謂的法治國就是說,權力分顏者依然依照憲法,幼十二條"},{"start":2341.121,"end":2358.872,"text":"一、立法院、立法院委員、一集、一三條、一三條法律案（等等先將勾勾當案（這是先行所賦予立法院委員的職責（那行政院、行政院是預算（那先行三條還算（行政院肯定預算來讓立法院委員來審查（"},{"start":2360.493,"end":2385.272,"text":"中國僑人也是這樣規定,行政院必須對醫院負責,有被監督的責任,也被監督以及被執行的責任,然後我們有執行的權利。這就是說,權利敷衍在底下,我們像這個國家法治國能夠這樣的順利走下去,才能走到今天,這是台灣民主的驕傲。"},{"start":2387.133,"end":2413.89,"text":"所以我常常講說另外我們從有關於宣法70條立法院不可以做預算增加立法院在做直接審視的時候不可以做預算增加這宣法70條也明定很清楚我相信大家在長期以來都清楚這個原則以及風紀"},{"start":2415.831,"end":2436.6,"text":"另外大環264解釋上面也是有稱呼如此你增加預算還有調整等等就會讓行政院的權益失去了他的權益而責任政治就沒有辦法產生了預算是他平時要收的收益還是要捐給什麼的這違憲法所不許可這是大環3914解釋領出"},{"start":2444.483,"end":2469.236,"text":"那我今天在講這個就是說因為我們可能會碰到另外一個法案也就是說有關於預算法1998年預算法通過預算法91條寫得很清楚另外一個人在做法案的時候要增加預算必須徵刑行政院的意見"},{"start":2470.336,"end":2495.468,"text":"尤其是找到替代裁員,說你找到那裡暗,要找到預算,要行政與政經行政意見,然後找到替代裁員,這是意義算法九一條規定很清楚那同意的話在意義算法第五條和第七條也有一些規範,乃至於裁划法三十八條也有寫清楚,都是有相同規範"},{"start":2497.833,"end":2525.849,"text":"那在預算法的部分,財政紀律法上面也有規範財政紀律法規範也很清楚財政紀律法的規範第五條立法院有關於立法院提案的時候要考慮到財政紀律法規範就是第五條你待會增加,也就是說你三萬要六萬也要有資金來源"},{"start":2527.389,"end":2549.022,"text":"那同樣的法,參議計法第7條,寫得更清楚,所有的法律案規定要符合參議計法,換言之就是說你提出法律案的時候,不可寫明是固定,固定經費以及比喻"},{"start":2549.742,"end":2572.519,"text":"甚至也不可增加基金從這些法制上面來看待的時候我們如何在憲法以至於拉丸四憲以及預算法、殘疾法乃至於這個殘疾法上面我們共同找出一個合法的合憲又可解套"},{"start":2574.872,"end":2589.647,"text":"為什麼這樣講呢?我們希望就是說以後我們常常會噴到那最近很多法案上涉及預算的常常在委員會也在審查造成很大的困擾"},{"start":2591.309,"end":2604.943,"text":"我希望大家秉持在從憲法上面乃至於大安事件以及這個產業紀律法、預算法上面這個整個主軸上面好好地來面對這個問題"},{"start":2607.338,"end":2614.122,"text":"那我常識提案就是說,是不是有沒有可能?好,他在從82年開始,到2015的時候,是變成3萬"},{"start":2622.586,"end":2643.178,"text":"但是它也有一個那這次也有修就是第三款第三款的時候有所以物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、"},{"start":2649.881,"end":2656.605,"text":"這樣的話,我是覺得我們要賺個天價,賺十幾%就不要罵死了。這種一種互償,一下子變成double,其實感覺會不成比例。"},{"start":2670.812,"end":2687.186,"text":"後來這些原住民這些年紀的保留地,全國有幾千萬公頃,但是就是說它是要嚴格審查的,但是有時候過於腐爛,所以有些人被移送法班"},{"start":2689.332,"end":2704.199,"text":"兩篇內大家互不相稱所以我們不是在基於國家法律上面我們大家能夠好好的來協商是不是我們先提高到4萬那後面那一段我們法修後面那一段就照"},{"start":2705.419,"end":2708.801,"text":"我希望大家能找一個解決方式來解決,以上是我的前線,請大家斟酌"},{"start":2727.856,"end":2728.136,"text":"我們在這裏要"},{"start":2756.9,"end":2777.237,"text":"首先要謝謝院長今天來召集協商。距離9月20日,在野黨赫然發現,中央總預算送到立法院來,竟然把在議會通過的法律案也好,組決議案也好,"},{"start":2778.342,"end":2802.812,"text":"都沒有能夠完整的來編列與實際的違反國家不可以做違法的事情這個在立法院正式三讀通過的法案而且經過總統府的公告在限期內沒有看到有任何複製的情況但是行政院可以不編列這樣的預算然後送到立法院來"},{"start":2804.389,"end":2832.518,"text":"這不只是嚴重的藐視國會也是對韓院長非常的不尊重那從9月20號到現在經過了將近一個月的時間我想整個執政者的整個操作鋪天蓋地的各種亡軍、各種攻擊我要謝謝院長今天的召集讓我們有一個把事實能夠讓國人了解的一個機會"},{"start":2837.111,"end":2861.79,"text":"確實最近有風有雨有颱風有淹水我們要再次強調這是一個基本的常識9月20號立法院程序委員會所推回的行政院的中央總預算是民國114年是明年的總預算立法院還沒有開始正式審查只是發現了"},{"start":2863.817,"end":2888.291,"text":"他們違法該編列的預算沒有編列而且腐爛的情況非常的嚴重把國家跟人民當提款機所以這種情況之下才先退回程序委員會並沒有進入實質的審查而卻是鋪天蓋地的這個政論節目網軍側翼"},{"start":2891.623,"end":2918.509,"text":"到處在所有這些選區不斷地在宣傳這個治水預算沒有了都是現在要救災、救難治水預算沒有了都是國民黨、民眾黨把預算把它刪掉了、把它擋掉了我想我們在這裡要向全國國人誠摯地表達只需烏有一個國家級的團隊來造謠"},{"start":2920.738,"end":2945.907,"text":"完全沒有的事情今年所有救災救命救苦的預算在去年都已經通過今年113年國家在執行的預算都是去年年底就今年年初就已經通過而現在立法院發生的重大爭議的預算是明年的預算從審議都還沒有開始"},{"start":2947.799,"end":2975.271,"text":"何來的刪除跟退回（何來的黨治水預算（何來的黨（這個老人年金（還有育兒津貼（鋪天蓋地的去攻擊在野黨的國會議員（這是國家之詞（我們要再次強調（在國會什麼事情都可以討論（都可以協商（而且都有法律救濟的管道（"},{"start":2976.741,"end":3003.806,"text":"執政者認為國會所通過的法律法律案他們有意見可以依法提出行政可以依法提出復議有很多程序的救濟方式都可以進行但是很奇怪的這個國家竟然不是用正式的合法合規合憲的方式來進行所有國家重大議題的討論"},{"start":3005.922,"end":3029.739,"text":"而是動員這個網軍側翼要呼喚青鳥我想對在野黨的這樣威脅恐嚇我們在這裡再一次的嚴正表達我們完全不接受這樣的一個事情我們是就事論事而且理性的討論我想剛剛柯總召所提到這個禁法補償的事情"},{"start":3031.055,"end":3049.447,"text":"我想這個也是這次總預算退回程序委員會的原因之一而已之一啊當然他所凸顯的就是一個行政院一個國家的團隊不依法來施政"},{"start":3052.745,"end":3080.544,"text":"這個對國會的踐踏．對百分之百掌握全國民意的立法院所做出來的．三讀通過的法律案．總統府也公告了．可以不來執行．這個只是其中之一而已．更何況進法補償．民進黨立委也爭相．部落立委也爭相提出來．大家一路加碼．所以．"},{"start":3081.721,"end":3105.078,"text":"今天這個案子我要特別強調不只是在野黨有部落立委有共識執政黨的立委部落立委也一樣有共識而且法律案的提出是清清楚楚白紙黑字就在我們的桌面上民進黨立委也是提同樣的金額同樣的競發補償"},{"start":3109.223,"end":3134.188,"text":"怎麼會大家一致性的決議然後在立法院三讀通過以後這樣的法律案可以不來執行那請問立法院通過什麼案子可以來執行這行政演習無限擴張到踐踏全民賦予監督權力的國會我們在這裡要特別強調憲法70條立法委員"},{"start":3140.666,"end":3159.663,"text":"國會議員在審查預算的時候確實不能作為增加預算之作為但是我們現在根本就不是在審查總預算這是上個會期通過的法律案根本不是現在在審議"},{"start":3166.819,"end":3182.253,"text":"這個總預算的時簽裡面提出來的這個要求他增加預算那怎麼會是混淆視聽呢把憲法的解釋都扭曲而且大法官391號解釋也講得非常清楚當預算的編列"},{"start":3185.242,"end":3206.297,"text":"這個確實有不合時宜的時候還可以裡面該怎麼去調整就三檢的部分再讓他們來另外再做調整這都講得非常非常的清楚更何況今天的爭議還不只一件不是說朝野部落立委都一致支持的這個進法補償的這個六萬塊錢"},{"start":3210.268,"end":3219.375,"text":"還有關係到全國醫護水平2300萬人健康的我們的健保點值0.95元這個議會大家都各黨黨兵都簽字了而且這個我們還是貫徹賴清德總統在競選時候所提出來的他的政見跟承諾公開的承諾我們幫賴總統來完成"},{"start":3240.402,"end":3269.734,"text":"結果竟然可以衛福部行政院可以不予理會再加上有多少年15年以上那些車仔、那些農民這麼辛苦這竟然公糧收購到現在一直都沒有來調整那這個事情也是經過運會的通過再加上立法院通過的事情"},{"start":3271.098,"end":3287.922,"text":"行政院抵制不作為（已經明顯違法（而且這不是關係到哪一個黨（哪一個人（這是關係到全民的健康（全國的農民（農民還有分顏色嗎（2300人的健康還有分顏色嗎（這都已經通過的事情（為什麼可以（行政院可以建它（再加上錯誤的能源政策（"},{"start":3301.695,"end":3324.45,"text":"確要來全國人民來買單一千億一千億每一年一千億兩千億的去補能源政策錯誤的這個錢坑除了補錢以外一年還要定價還要漲兩次給錢還不放人啊還要向全民啊家戶收錢啊一年還要漲兩次要把國內的產業統統趕出去嗎"},{"start":3329.485,"end":3358.565,"text":"我們現在無法想像這樣一個國家堅持錯誤的能源政策昨天還打高空要到什麼菲律賓到哪裡去設電廠這光拉這個線要損耗三四十趴到台灣一想天開真的是天馬行空這就是我們國家能源政策嗎無限量的向人民來虛所無度嗎"},{"start":3359.955,"end":3385.712,"text":"這個都是我們在討論過程中認為要退回總預算的主要的原因不是只有一個而已我們希望國會是大家共同尊重的大家抄以協商的結果我們希望能夠確定行政院要執行如果是法律案都三讀通過的事情行政院當然要來執行"},{"start":3389.426,"end":3392.048,"text":"謝謝院長我本來想說今天是要來聽解決方案不是要把之前講過的論述再說一次"},{"start":3411.533,"end":3432.739,"text":"那或者是在這邊在進行實質的爭執啦那只不過說剛剛執政黨的歷任黨鞭有針對法律的部分發表他個人的高見跟闡述所以我可能簡要的把重點的事情我還是要再清楚的講一次第一個"},{"start":3434.139,"end":3456.424,"text":"我們現在所在面臨的問題是中央政府總預算的審查立法委員在審查預算的時候我們可以刪除我們可以凍結但我們不能針對行政院所提出的預算案增加它的金額我想這是一個最基本的遊戲規則那因此"},{"start":3460.023,"end":3482.077,"text":"針對今年中央政府所編出來的總預算案我們認為腐爛的部分當然啦如果行政院願意利用機會重新調整我覺得是好事但腐爛的部分我們接下來審查的時候不管是刪除還是會凍結我們都會依法去做我們秉持那個卓榮泰院長"},{"start":3483.358,"end":3501.385,"text":"所宣布的絕對不可以浪費公帑的基本原則來進行嚴格的審查但為什麼我們會希望行政院要重編基本上還是回到一個法治國的原則就是依法行政立法院已經三讀通過的法律案"},{"start":3502.245,"end":3523.606,"text":"那個已經構成了人民的請求權的基礎那人民原住民符合資格的依照禁法補償條例他們提出請求的時候在國家上面公法上的給付義務按照目前三讀通過已經生效的法律他本來可以請求的金額就是每公頃6萬元"},{"start":3525.288,"end":3543.737,"text":"但問題是在今年所送出來的總預算當中他沒有針對這個國家要履行他的法定義務所必須要有的支出來編列預算那我們在後來審查的時候按照憲法的規定又沒有辦法增加這是為什麼我們希望"},{"start":3544.477,"end":3556.016,"text":"行政院就沒有依法編列預算的部分能夠重新的回去編列、調整最主要的理由我覺得這第一個是基本大的架構的"},{"start":3559.335,"end":3578.548,"text":"立場、原則跟理由先做一個簡單的說明那目前會遇到這個問題跟我們上個會期審議有關係的其實有三個案子我先從最簡單的開始講就有關於健保點值0.95元的部分那個是三黨的黨團"},{"start":3582.355,"end":3599.776,"text":"參與的委員、黨團的幹部、大家全部都簽字了當初我記得花了很多的時間然後大家都同意了那樣子的一個內容那我們黨團是有稱召這位委員因為他對於這個議題是最熟悉的那參與實質的協商"},{"start":3601.778,"end":3630.11,"text":"那後來陳委員回來跟我們講協商的結果我們黨團的幹部都同意也都簽了字所以第一個我覺得比較沒有爭議的是這三個黨團的黨變通通都簽了字的事情那第二個就有關於公糧收購價格的部分公糧收購價格的部分當初台灣民眾黨提案那中國國民黨也有提案那在院會裡面的時候針對這個提案的主決議"},{"start":3632.639,"end":3655.113,"text":"根本沒有人提出異議啊那個時候主持會議的主席有問說請問在場的委員有無異議根本沒有人異議啊甚至連表決都沒有就無異議就通過了那第三個部分可能對左榮泰而言他比較有意見的是計法補償條例他說違憲我老實說我聽不懂"},{"start":3662.35,"end":3686.111,"text":"省預算的時候不可以為增加支出的提議跟在法律案的時候會造成行政部門或者在編預算的需求這在概念上是兩回事而當初的禁法補償條例一開始的時候它也是由立法委員來提議的最後也三讀通過了"},{"start":3688.706,"end":3701.665,"text":"那過去會增加支出的立法委員的提案法律通過因此而造成整個預算會支出的法律案比比皆是我就不要再一一列舉了"},{"start":3702.935,"end":3718.246,"text":"那當然最近執政黨又說違反預算法第91條那我們來看一下預算法91條是怎麼規定的預算法91條規定說立法委員所提的法律案第一個大幅增加"},{"start":3720.47,"end":3736.449,"text":"第一、研商的前提要件是要大幅增加稅出第二、研商要遵循行政院的意見請大家注意在法條的用語上他是要遵循行政院的意見他不是要得到行政院"},{"start":3737.489,"end":3764.755,"text":"的同意在法律的文字上面他為什麼是用徵詢他不是說取得行政院的同意我相信這個立法議職非常的清楚這個法律到底要怎麼解釋那我們再看具體的實際上面的內容具體實際上面的內容在上個會期在審查這個法律案的時候到底有沒有去徵詢行政院的意見 有啊"},{"start":3765.555,"end":3793.073,"text":"真的有徵詢行政院的意見那個時候提案的委員我記得是武力華委員在針對禁法補償條例進行總質詢的時候他問了上一屆也就是在法案提出的行政院院長陳建仁陳建仁說他支持啊旁邊的主記長還提醒說那如果要增加的話要修正法律"},{"start":3795.029,"end":3818.857,"text":"那那個時候在尋答的過程當中很清楚就趕快推動法律的修正主計長還當場表示只要法律修正通過了以後他們就會依法編列預算這個在立法院公報裡面的整個立法歷程清清楚楚的所以分兩個層次第一個台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們根本不認為這個有違憲的問題"},{"start":3824.131,"end":3851.03,"text":"有沒有違反憲法那個是基本上面的憲政原則它不會因為法律規定的內容而產生任何的影響你怎麼會說在討論法律有沒有違憲的時候就看其他法律是怎麼規定那退一萬步講你今天即使要看預算法的規定預算法的規定也寫得很清楚啊它最多只是要徵詢行政院的意見它上面有說要行政院同意嗎"},{"start":3852.662,"end":3871.854,"text":"上面也沒有說要行政院同意那如果說要行政院同意的話那可能我們在這邊所講的憲政主義權力分立行政跟立法兩者之間的界限恐怕才是真正遭到大幅的踐踏跟破壞所以台灣民眾黨團的立場"},{"start":3874.315,"end":3899.533,"text":"非常的簡單就是請行政院依法行政依法編列預算那至於說行政院如果卓榮泰他個人認為這個法律是所謂的違憲的話那行政院在這個情況之下他們要去申請釋憲或者是什麼什麼這個按照法定的程序我們都尊重啦"},{"start":3900.376,"end":3910.228,"text":"我們都尊重啊但我要提醒的事情是什麼我要提醒的事情是行政院說他一公請願意給4萬塊那請問給付這4萬塊的法律基礎是什麼你如果這個法律違憲你認為違憲那就給付3萬塊嘛"},{"start":3920.506,"end":3946.403,"text":"那在被憲法法庭宣告違憲以前這個是三讀有效通過的法律行政院也沒提復議依法的規定人民在公法上的請求權就是6萬塊那現在突然說要美公請他願意給4萬塊那請問美公請給付4萬塊的法律基礎是什麼毫無依據啊那因此我們也希望"},{"start":3948.358,"end":3974.778,"text":"總預算能夠進行實質的審查這個我們都沒意見但前提是說行政院你在編列預算的時候你還是要依法編列預算這樣立法機關針對你所編列的預算是不是有腐爛是不是有做不好該凍結我們才有辦法順利的再往下去進行審查下去那這個是台灣民眾黨黨團我們基本上面的態度跟立場"},{"start":3976.639,"end":3999.366,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召那各位黨團幹部跟大家報告一下齁等一下準備第二輪發言之前我請原住民列席的委員尖端二要來講一下怎麼立場也請主記長請準備你講完話之後我們各黨團第二輪發言好不好這樣的話比較完整一點主記長請準備來請兩位今天的列席還有其他歡迎各黨團同志各自己的原住民立委大家都很關切請高金委員請"},{"start":4000.186,"end":4024.984,"text":"首先謝謝韓院長在我們政黨協商的時候可以排除所謂的三黨的總召門也讓原住民的立法委員來練習所以因此黃光昌委員剛剛所提的我就大概不再說了但是我有幾個必須要說明的第一件事情就是目前我們原住民的禁法補償令的人"},{"start":4025.544,"end":4032.749,"text":"公請數是72587公請（領的人數是51957人（這是按照112年度領的這個數據（然後也沒有剛剛坑澤昭說的違法（還有亂編（反而是非常的嚴格（我在這邊要先說明一下（"},{"start":4051.54,"end":4074.148,"text":"二、如黃國昌總召說的（如果我們的卓院長說4萬是違憲的話（或者按照柯總召所說的（我們是不是先編4萬（然後隨著物價指數來調升（的確隨著物價指數調升（是在法律案裡面有通過的部分（"},{"start":4074.888,"end":4090.133,"text":"大家知道所謂的物價有升也有降它不會永遠停留在6萬塊更何況剛剛所提到的如果它是違憲的話為什麼卓院長說4萬它就合憲呢?"},{"start":4091.314,"end":4105.192,"text":"六萬就是違憲這是我們族人一直也搞不太清楚的謝謝剛剛黃國昌走招有提示大家然後再來就是所謂的財源其實我給大家看一下財源在104年"},{"start":4109.037,"end":4124.874,"text":"這個禁法補償通過一公頃三萬的時候（當時的田秋瑾、簡東明（高金素梅還有幾個人王金平院長（我們就簽字了 這上面簡單講附帶決議是說（如果要提高禁法補償的金額的話（應該是由開徵碳稅來支應（"},{"start":4129.298,"end":4145.17,"text":"好,大家也理解,氣候編簽法在立法院已經通過了然後我們也有一個溫室氣體管理基金也有錢了所以政府一直在說沒有裁員,我們也不知道是不是沒有裁員"},{"start":4145.911,"end":4174.843,"text":"已經104年告訴你．如果我們有增加預算的話．可以從這個管理基金出來．我想這個環境部、財政部．應該都非常的清楚知道再來我要談的是．我希望待會我們的秘書長．可以來跟我們來說明一下．什麼是法律案．什麼是預算案．就我在立法院23年的理解．禁法補償、修正條例是屬於法律案．"},{"start":4175.703,"end":4184.553,"text":"法律案我也在布加多綴有多少個在立法院通過了然後也是要求我們行政院要編列預算比我們現在進法補償的編列預算的金額還高得多了"},{"start":4193.584,"end":4208.161,"text":"民進黨一直在說財政紀律法的確財政紀律法在108年是有修正的但是不要忘記我這邊也有一些相關的文件109年6月的時候三倍卷"},{"start":4209.284,"end":4219.63,"text":"也通過了告訴大家金額是多少515億110年的9月5號9月五倍件就通過了1100億然後113年如果是違憲的話113年10月陳廷飛他又提案了他說老農津貼要從8000到1萬"},{"start":4233.659,"end":4253.54,"text":"所以我們不知道現在卓院長他的邏輯是什麼如果原住民提高進法補償一公頃六萬是違憲的話為什麼他們自己的立法委員吳亦華委員提六萬然後我如果沒有進座的話我們的吳思耀委員也幫他連署了"},{"start":4254.301,"end":4262.511,"text":"所以如果是違憲的我再講一次4萬就不違憲嗎然後我們看一下今年100明年114年度的預算從原民會的公務預算裡面看到他編列的進法補償就是28.1"},{"start":4272.583,"end":4294.473,"text":"如果按照我剛剛所講的那個金額（我們目前有7萬公頃（大家用數學算一下（4、7、28（所以一開始行政院就篤定只要給4萬塊（如果就是行政院長他一意孤行（他於心不忍（"},{"start":4295.433,"end":4321.729,"text":"他不願意提所謂的這個復議案那麼他又依照什麼法律可以編4萬而且他也在114年度原民會的公務預算裡面編了28.1億給經法補償所以這個部分大家要思考一下一開始我們的卓院長就是欺負原住民只願意給4萬以上 謝謝"},{"start":4324.526,"end":4347.753,"text":"謝謝高進委員發言,接下來請鄭天才委員發言院長、各黨團,非常謝謝院長也謝謝我們柯總召一開始提到禁法補償確實,因為我是在台灣省政府服務20年禁法補償是因為法律"},{"start":4349.13,"end":4371.434,"text":"禁止原住民照的林不能砍伐（所以依照森林法要補償（依照原住民基本法要補償（所以依照森林法（在民國82年（就開始有禁法補償（當時的金額就是兩萬塊（兩萬塊（"},{"start":4376.466,"end":4400.182,"text":"從82年到現在31年了31年了如果我們按照物價指數各方面絕對不是6萬塊了好105年這個公佈施行這個禁法補償條例開始實施剛才柯總長有提到3萬塊沒有錯鄭文燦"},{"start":4404.148,"end":4428.802,"text":"鄭文燦當任桃園市市長當時105年他認為太少啊他用桃園市政府的錢加碼4萬塊他知道從82年才增加到3萬塊他認為太少所以他就加碼了所以"},{"start":4430.144,"end":4455.792,"text":"現在既然法例通過了是要6萬塊而且這個提案跨黨派的立法委員72位跨黨派立法委員72位提案其中民進黨的立委32人連署包括我們吳思堯幹事長"},{"start":4459.69,"end":4484.258,"text":"本席跟高金素美只有提五萬塊吳立法立委陳寅立委都是六萬塊當然盧憲一立委是六萬塊他有他的法律的他有他的一個整個依據為什麼是六萬塊他是從英國的寫者的一個評估認為"},{"start":4487.199,"end":4514.538,"text":"最起碼要6萬塊是這樣的一個法律提案的過程我就不再贅述剛才是不是有違憲是不是有違預算法是不是有違財政紀律法剛才這個民眾黨團黃國昌都已經講得非常清楚了我不再重複我唯一要"},{"start":4516.445,"end":4532.493,"text":"這個特別要拜託行政院的是說進法補償一直到113年度的總預算才回到正軌完全由公務預算來編列112年度以前"},{"start":4539.964,"end":4560.336,"text":"從106到112年度都違法挪用了原住民族綜合發展基金所以我特別要請主席議長要去補編補編的預算不多只有15億為了15億立法院要開這麼長的朝野協商"},{"start":4566.091,"end":4588.45,"text":"然後在立法院、行政院在那邊總諸行花了多少的時間?15億啊!沒有多少啊!所以部分就編列公務預算。以上。謝謝。謝謝鄭天才委員發言。主席長,現在麻煩您發言一下。其他三個黨團已經準備二輪發言。請。"},{"start":4591.524,"end":4601.533,"text":"院長、副院長和各位黨團委員大家好我們主計總署針對114年度原住民進華補償經費編列來提出說明原住民進華補償標準是由每公頃3萬元調整到6萬元"},{"start":4610.681,"end":4614.103,"text":"一、中央政府總預算案．一、研商有關二、研商有關"},{"start":4628.271,"end":4641.899,"text":"這個部分修法後備徵的部分（跟《憲法70條》還有相關的一個財政紀律法規定不符（因為這裡面有需要說要指定資金的一個來源（我們也針對這個原民會114年度的預算的一個部分（我們總預算是成長9%點多（但是原民會預算我們增加了12%（"},{"start":4652.325,"end":4677.194,"text":"所以這個部分增加了部分我們希望說他在這個經費裡面按照他施政的優先順序去本年基預算的一個精神去做一個排序和執行編列執行那這個案子呢我們如果經過執行以後如果經費有不足的部分那我們本總處呢依據行政院的一個政策來檢討協助以上一個補充"},{"start":4680.891,"end":4701.571,"text":"我們請民進黨團請第二輪發言謝謝院長那針對今天在討論總預算那第一題當然就是原住民競發補償那我覺得剛剛事實上主席長也有揭露幾個重要的原則就是說我們立法委員事實上在立法"},{"start":4702.452,"end":4703.854,"text":"第14屆考試院人事同意權案．民進黨黨團提議．三、研商有關"},{"start":4719.834,"end":4720.855,"text":"〔民進黨黨團提議．中央政府總預算案〕"},{"start":4749.654,"end":4760.801,"text":"你徵詢行政院意見那你要跟行政院至少也要討論出這個彌補資金的來源這是一個重點那財政紀律法在2019年4月10號公佈"},{"start":4764.924,"end":4790.957,"text":"那基本上它重要的條文在第五條以及第七條其中第五條跟預算法九十一條精神是一樣的也就是說你立法委員所提的法律案那如果增加政府的支出的時候應該也要具名指名彌補資金來言這個法律用語就是用因它並不是很單純的用的因就是說你必須要然後第七條還規定說各級機關"},{"start":4794.113,"end":4819.941,"text":"即立法機關制定法律的時候．你不得增加固定經費額度或比例的保障．那也不得用基金的方式．來限縮整個政府的一個施政．那我想這個基本上都是基於所謂權力分立原則．也就是行政權去編列預算．立法權來審預算．那整個精神還是在於．"},{"start":4821.461,"end":4840.551,"text":"憲法第70條第70條就是立法委員在立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出之提議所以可以看出來說你在預算案的時候立法委員是不得為增加之提議所以也衍生到了有4至264號跟391號4至264號是講到了說你立法委員不得用決議的方式來"},{"start":4848.775,"end":4875.445,"text":"來提高這個預算當年度是有立法委員去決議要增加公務人員的年終獎金那後來這樣的一個決議被認為是違反違反這個憲法第70條所以被宣告違憲那391條是認為說那你在沒有增加總預算的情況之下你在預算科目裡面為調整那後來也是認為這樣的一個調整仍然是"},{"start":4877.786,"end":4878.487,"text":"對於行政權他在行政的時候有所的一個牽制那這樣的一個"},{"start":4883.013,"end":4912.413,"text":"對行政權的一個簽字的一個作為（也是被認為是違憲的（所以可以看出說這個是關於預算案有這樣的精神（那當然目前大法官解釋沒去說到說法律案的一個情況這個是現在大法官解釋還沒有講到這一塊但是我們同樣的從剛剛預算法從剛剛財政金域法都可以推演出是一樣的一個精神立法委員我們可以用法案來要求行政機關應該要做怎樣的行政作為"},{"start":4913.033,"end":4928.473,"text":"但是這樣的行政作為你一旦增加政府的支出的時候你就必須要跟行政機關溝通至少也要溝通出裁員在哪裡所以這個裁員如果還沒有找出來的話那你用法案強行通過"},{"start":4929.634,"end":4953.351,"text":"違反預算法、違反財政紀律法．而且很明顯．跟憲法所接觸的這個權力分立原則．也是不合憲的．所以我想民進黨的態度是這樣．所以也是希望說．在這樣的精神之下．那能不能說．我們再用其他的一個方式．大家來溝通．所以我想以上我先這樣的一個發言．等一下再聽大家的一個意見．"},{"start":4956.513,"end":4958.015,"text":"好,謝謝民進黨團參與幹事長的發言二人請國民黨團發言然後台灣民眾黨請準備好,謝謝院長"},{"start":4966.461,"end":4993.964,"text":"我想對於總預算的議題剛才我們不管是副分級總召、黃國昌總召或者我們高金、鄭天才委員我想一再的重申要求行政院就是要依法行政其實我在這邊要特別呼籲民進黨的委員我想我們每一位立法委員都必須尊重自舉的職權我們必須要監督行政院依法行政"},{"start":4995.405,"end":5011.861,"text":"剛才國昌總召講得非常清楚就是說我們的原名的保留地進法補償條例的修正案這個案子是在6月4號三讀通過總統府也在6月24號公告這是一部有效率的法律"},{"start":5013.075,"end":5028.536,"text":"所以另外我們行政院的這個也沒有依照中華民國憲法徵修條文第3條在10日內已請立法院來附議那也沒有提出憲法的訴訟由憲法法庭判定是否違憲"},{"start":5029.918,"end":5046.417,"text":"現在不管是柯總召或者剛才蔡議員一直講說這是一部違憲的一個的修法我們就不清楚說明明是一部有效施行的法律也沒有經過凍結行政院有什麼立場不去依法來編列這個預算"},{"start":5048.82,"end":5070.542,"text":"所以我們是認為說實際上是行政院非常不尊重我們的立法院的我們的三讀通過的一個法律所以其實朝野在現階段這部法律是有效施行的情況之下我們應該是共同一致的來監督行政院而不是幫行政院來護航"},{"start":5071.983,"end":5099.322,"text":"行政院已經違法了你們還可以口口聲聲說行政院你可以不用依法編列這個預算我想這個才是違反權力分履的一個原則另外我要再提到的就是說我想我們剛才不管是鄭天才委員或高進委員一再強調這個原名的這個這個經法補償的這個預算如果這次編列只需要多少錢大概就是14到17億"},{"start":5101.311,"end":5126.586,"text":"那剛才一語一字講說你要這個經過行政院去盤點說我們有沒有這個預算啊有沒有這個預算我跟我我們來看一下今年我們編的預算啊行政院在114年度的預算中編列高達將近15億的媒體的就三兆兩千億其中有15億啊是媒體政策的宣導費比去年增加多少增加65%啊所以"},{"start":5130.988,"end":5159.779,"text":"對於我們立法通過的進法補償金你說沒有預算可以去做相關公共預算的編列我想這個是說不過去啦說不過去喔我想這愧對原住民的權益的一個照顧喔所以我們在這邊我們就重申請行政院依法行政好謝謝國民黨團林思明書記長的發言接下來台灣民眾黨請二人發言請吳春城委員發言"},{"start":5166.264,"end":5177.996,"text":"這個整個的討論聽到現在我完全無法理解行政院就依法行政"},{"start":5179.864,"end":5200.374,"text":"完全沒有問題這是法律已經三讀通過的第二個按照通例過去同樣的這些類似的法律多如牛毛第三個呢如果是財政負擔按照財政負擔"},{"start":5202.08,"end":5230.352,"text":"這也是一筆小錢相對於三兆的整個的中央總預算來講按照學理大家各方面的討論也完全沒有問題那第五個按照從政府的和諧的運作加上現在民生疾苦百廢待興所有事情都急著要推動"},{"start":5232.369,"end":5255.258,"text":"從這各個觀點當中我覺得行政院都站不住腳行政院但是呢百思不決為什麼要這麼硬為什麼要這麼堅持卡在一個原住民的補償條例上面我來想啊這到底的意義是什麼我想他要聲張的是"},{"start":5256.673,"end":5268.022,"text":"行政權剛才提到的行政權不可被牽制要身上執政黨要牽制這一個然後立法權不可監督是不是要這樣子呢"},{"start":5269.383,"end":5293.494,"text":"那我也看到我們的黨團我們的行政院的行政部門即使都在辯論我覺得辯論得很心虛、很辛苦真的我覺得大家都很辛苦你們都是專家不管從案例、從剛才所提到的任何事情大家都心知肚明、非常清楚大家不曉得在這邊演什麼戲那所以呢我覺得無非是不是要伸張"},{"start":5295.155,"end":5312.822,"text":"執政獨裁、藐視國會（這樣子永無倫理、非國家之福（所以特別在這裡聲明好,謝謝壯世代的吳春城委員,謝謝主席長請問有沒有要補充的,因為我要念一下結論吳世堯委員,請發言"},{"start":5319.619,"end":5340.645,"text":"謝謝,我想院長應當有相當的智慧因為您說你已經有預擬結論了但是我還是把握時間這個發言一下希望就是大家都是朝解決問題的方向來走那過去我想每一個會期尤其在預算會期要進入總預算副委審查"},{"start":5341.925,"end":5370.444,"text":"當然都會有當下的政治環境跟情勢可能有某個個案、某個爭議的議題然後大家朝野之間有一些攻防所以稍微都沒有在第一次會就直接讓總預算來複為審查但是我找出過去這數年來事實上是數十年來在預算會期審議總預算交付審查的時程大概都是第二次會或第三次會就交付審查"},{"start":5371.665,"end":5394.661,"text":"前提是我剛剛講每一個會期都有那個時候的政治氛圍可能有特殊的政治issue朝野之間真的要攻防表達立場但是大家過去的朝野大家的共同智慧跟共同的共識就是總預算是要審的總預算嚴當不得所以非常完整我手上的資料從民國90年到113年度"},{"start":5397.623,"end":5408.524,"text":"在預算會期審查預算附委的期程都是落在該次就是我們的院會的第二次或第三次會就審查了"},{"start":5409.235,"end":5422.063,"text":"那我們現在這個會期到現在開議已經一個月了將近那即將要進入第五次的院會了如果說第五次的院會還沒有辦法讓總預算來交付審查我想這個其實是有違過去大家長年來"},{"start":5429.688,"end":5451.625,"text":"即使有不同的政治議題攻防之下．過去的立法院．不管誰大誰小．誰是巢誰是野．都有這樣的基本共識．因為審查預算就是立法委員的職權．所以我前提講得很清楚．我們都理解．在政治攻防下．各政黨有彼此的看法．"},{"start":5452.486,"end":5463.731,"text":"哪個節總是要解的嘛所以今天謝謝韓院長主持的這個朝野協商剛剛我就順著吳春成我前面發言的幹事長吳幹事長他也是吳幹事長我們都是吳幹事長的這個您剛說的民生極苦嘛"},{"start":5472.995,"end":5487.441,"text":"百廢待舉,您剛說的啦如果說我們都是民意一票一票選出來的如果說都肯認到總預算是可以解決讓解決這個民生疾苦百廢待舉的狀況之下當然就趕快讓它審查"},{"start":5489.462,"end":5503.971,"text":"因為沒有審查．就不會有通過．不會有通過．就會延宕了一些政務的推行明年度的新興計畫．如果沒有審預算．完全沒有辦法致用的新興計畫．就是2050億"},{"start":5507.333,"end":5527.431,"text":"我上一場會議在司法法制委員會質詢法務部我們上回期通過的打詐四法在野黨大家都要打詐四法一定要通過詐騙是現在社會大家最厭惡的政府一定要解決那總預算如果沒有審我剛剛問了總我問了法務部長那你手上影響的新興打詐業務會高達11.26億啊"},{"start":5532.596,"end":5555.755,"text":"這些都是人民關節的議題所以我先講我的開宗明義縱使任何的政治攻防在每一個會期開始都會有但是總預算就是要交付審查過去的期程是第二次會或第三次會我們明天如果再沒有辦法交付審查今天是協商的最終機會我們會落到第五次會"},{"start":5556.676,"end":5577.801,"text":"而總預算嚴厚交付審查期程．立法委員們付出的代價是什麼．除了民意的苛責之外．最重要、最現實的．就是壓縮我們監督預算、審查的期程．因為法定的預算．要審閉的期程是年底．12月31號．如果晚一次會、晚兩次會．我們就是少掉多一個禮拜．"},{"start":5585.203,"end":5599.8,"text":"少一個禮拜．可以好好藉由審查．針對預算的編轉．執行計畫的完備與否．在那個場域上去行使委員的監督權力．所以我要強調這件事．"},{"start":5602.782,"end":5629.351,"text":"我第一次說話我再講一下還有一個事情我也想很多細節我都不再贅述因為剛剛很多前輩大家都指證過發表過意見但我要講一件事情當我們立法委員不管是行政或立法我們都是服務人民的公僕不分行政立法大家都要依法行政依法行政在在野黨的"},{"start":5631.109,"end":5644.075,"text":"口中主張行政院要依法行政（同樣的立法部門在修法（或是在立新法（也要依法來修法（或是依法來立法（"},{"start":5645.51,"end":5670.458,"text":"國家的體制是一套的不管誰執政都有一套要遵循的體制所以剛剛已經講了憲法的精神預算法的精神財政紀律法2019年更嚴格的限縮因為我們的法律是越來越進步越來越嚴謹我非常印象深刻2019年修正財政紀律法的時候"},{"start":5672.422,"end":5693.719,"text":"當時的提案委員（有民進黨的王榮章委員（他是我們的財政專家（有國民黨的曾明宗委員（也是財政專家（還有我們非常資深的賴世保委員（財政專家吧（在三位委員的合推之下（完成了財政紀律法的立法（"},{"start":5694.76,"end":5714.922,"text":"所以財政紀律法在2019年立法之後三位各黨跨黨派的資深專業的財政委員都認為我們要對於國家財政的控管進行一套更進步的檢視所以透過一個財政紀律法的立法其實它限縮了立法委員修法的職權沒有錯"},{"start":5717.073,"end":5740.243,"text":"因為財政紀律法就限縮了第5條跟第7條都限縮了我們的立委未來而後在修任何一個法律的時候不能夠有明定的數額乃至於比例都不行所以這是一個更進步的國會朝野的共識制像我剛剛說的曾明宗委員夠專業了吧賴世保委員在財政的領域夠專業了吧"},{"start":5741.724,"end":5762.141,"text":"他們共同認為不論誰執政國家的財政都要好好的控管所以2019年的財政紀律法很清楚的告訴我們很遺憾上個會期的原住民進法補償的條例就是違逆了財政紀律法最新的一個我們現在都會沿用的預算的基本法規"},{"start":5763.462,"end":5788.361,"text":"所以依法行政不只是要求行政部門我們自己立法委員如果立了在釋法性有問題的法律又要行政部門都要去適用那這樣沒完沒了所以回到財政紀律法為什麼要修為了控管國家財政那我希望剛剛柯總召已經說了民進黨團今天是帶著願意讓步"},{"start":5791.735,"end":5809.712,"text":"大家善意誠意的協調（上個會期在修原住民進法補償條例的時候（其實在也是韓院長主持的那個協商會場（其實大家心知肚明（從3萬到6萬百分之百的一個漲幅（這個是前所未有的（其實在場"},{"start":5815.762,"end":5823.71,"text":"大概多數的委員當天都在場所以才在跟行政部門協調一個合一的數字的時候"},{"start":5825.253,"end":5848.567,"text":"有一個4萬塊．行政部門也認為每公頃4萬塊．是在合理性上可以接受的．所以回到預算法第91條．任何一個修法要增加稅出或減少稅入．我不曉得剛剛在野黨委員說的．黃國昌委員說的一定要大幅增加才算．如果您認為28億不是大幅．"},{"start":5849.426,"end":5877.281,"text":"那未來每一個法律（它會有它的母數跟基數是不一樣的這重點的法律的意涵就是不要去簽約了預約了行政部門的預算權限所以它有一個應徵詢行政院之意見大家共識覺得找出一個在財政負擔上OK的不會造成其他預算項目的排擠的所以當初大家認為4萬是合理的"},{"start":5878.081,"end":5906.556,"text":"那原始沒有修法之前就三萬（所以這是一個行政部門認為願意擴大照顧（所以剛剛總召所提（柯總召所提的（如果今年度行政部門也會想方設法（在四萬的幅度（而且也依循每兩年CPI的指數（我認為這是一個非常合宜（也是當初大家都認為一個合理的長幅（真的要懇求大家（"},{"start":5907.802,"end":5924.259,"text":"希望在原住民計法補償這件事情獲得一個大家各退一步的解方但更重要的這件事情大家接不接受這個解方都不要再繼續影響到總預算的負為審查明天是第五次會了"},{"start":5925.906,"end":5948.364,"text":"壓縮我們審查期間是不利於國會的監督這真的是要非常懇切的那因為很多很多的我想都不要再贅述但是苦民所苦剛講的如果百廢待舉民生凋零那國家需要預算照顧人民謝謝好謝謝吳思耀委員發言那我們請國民黨團三人發言請好謝謝主席"},{"start":5955.963,"end":5979.66,"text":"剛才就是已經經過了兩輪發言那我剛才也聽到我們民進黨幹事長的發言其實我們一直強調就是所謂的依法行政剛才吳思堯幹事長一直說依法行政但是我們現在問題就是當由我們立法院通過而且經過總統公告的法律而政府不去實行的話我必須說啊我們也是陷害總統於不義啊"},{"start":5985.413,"end":5995.941,"text":"這不是第一次史上第一遭破天荒的由總統府公告實施的法律最後告訴民眾誤會一場"},{"start":5997.853,"end":6020.762,"text":"所以我們不要陷賴總統於不義我覺得這非常重要我們一直在講依法行政依法行政這個法經過通過經過公告實施而行政院也沒有提出復議然後在編列預算的時候我們卻可以動手腳我必須講如果這樣的話我們政府自己不是變成最大的詐騙集團了嗎如果行政院要當詐騙集團"},{"start":6026.431,"end":6055.688,"text":"立法院在野黨我覺得我們沒有辦法當委員幫兇所以在這邊我們還是要求的是就是要依法行政行政院沒有提出復議你也沒有去釋憲你現在口口聲說他違反憲法違反憲法然後現在都公告實施了怎麼可以這樣子翻臉這是一個另外"},{"start":6057.797,"end":6086.095,"text":"剛才就特別講打架很重要打架非常重要啊但是政府自己不能夠變成詐騙集團這一點非常重要而且剛才如果按照吳四堯幹事長說的當時從三萬變成六萬他覺得非常驚訝可是吳四堯幹事長自己可能都忘了當民進黨的立委提案修正的時候你自己連署啊是不是我覺得你今天不能說"},{"start":6087.659,"end":6092.182,"text":"民進黨的委員提出來這個你都可以連署然後等到我們在立法院通過了我們也從善如流啊然後現在呢我們就變成違法亂紀了嗎我們就沒有財政紀律了嗎那不曉得幹事長吳志堯幹事長你的財政紀律到底你的標準是不是也是浮動的好 那我想"},{"start":6112.535,"end":6138.582,"text":"一直口口聲聲說就說我們不要拖延審查不要拖延審查我要告訴大家的是這一黨一點都不想拖延審查我直接說我們很想進入審查坎預算對不對這一黨就是要來監督預算是不是我們一點都不想拖延但是我們有一些原則這個原則就是法定預算你必須要編列而現在我看到主計長講這些話我不想浪費時間"},{"start":6142.335,"end":6156.523,"text":"你們今年的稅入比去年增加了4千多億增加4千億以上你告訴我沒有裁員這個增加多少?你現在你說從3萬變4萬4萬再變6萬增加多少?我算算14億啊你稅入增加4千多億然後你跟法定預算增加14億你現在告訴我"},{"start":6170.784,"end":6182.39,"text":"我告訴大家我們總統府三大委員會的成立是在我們原民進法補償條例之後在今年的預算裡面分散在各部會超過70億"},{"start":6185.526,"end":6205.027,"text":"我當然尊重總統他成立委員會他有他施政的這個需求我們尊重只要他發的合理我們也可以尊重可是問題你這個法定預算你怎麼這個三大委員會一個不是法定的機構的相關的預算可以凌駕在法律之上"},{"start":6205.948,"end":6228.399,"text":"如果是這樣的話說實在我們所有的立法委員大家打包回去睡覺啊不需要立法委員不需要立法委員也不需要立法院所以我要講的我們一點都不想拖延審查但是如果今天你不依法法定運載部編列的話那我覺得現在拖延的是民進黨政府啊是行政院啊"},{"start":6229.284,"end":6246.645,"text":"新政院現在用這種方式來拖延審查嗎所以我覺得我們很多的這個原則要跟大家講得非常清楚那不要再用抹黑的方式、造謠的方式甚至在之前很多一些梗圖"},{"start":6248.267,"end":6276.642,"text":"說我們什麼三預算、三社福、三什麼育兒今天等等都被世事查核中心已經被打臉了嘛都是假訊息所以我們今天我們相信真理越辯越明所以也拜託今天拜託我們行政院不要拖延預算的審查趕快把法定預算編好我們立刻就可以進入審查以上謝謝謝謝王副委員發言接下來台灣民眾黨請第三輪發言有沒有"},{"start":6277.799,"end":6290.486,"text":"麥文玉先生請發言好 謝謝院長好 謝謝院長 謝謝大家我是 我個人覺得"},{"start":6291.92,"end":6306.069,"text":"是行政院長拜討違法（才會延伸後面的那麼多事情（又延伸總預算的審查（又害了我們浪費很多時間（我覺得個人覺得是這樣（因為源頭（因為他沒有要大家去編的話（我總執行的時候也說（如果是他（"},{"start":6317.916,"end":6333.124,"text":"指令大家不編還是說各個部會你們不依法來去編這個真正的原因嘛但是大家講的都是後面的一堆就是原因不是原因因為沒有這個源頭怎麼會發生後面大家就是要依法"},{"start":6338.126,"end":6340.769,"text":"來去執行（對不對（所以我們希望說要求6萬（我們審查的時候我是內政委員（我們高金委員是要增加是5萬（但是在不是內政委員的委員（來說他們的預算是6萬（"},{"start":6358.308,"end":6360.289,"text":"還有我們民進黨的委員來說應該要7萬也可以所以我們就說不要我們就是說依我們的6萬就好也是大家一起來同意也是我們要照這樣子的規定來去走的"},{"start":6374.562,"end":6393.471,"text":"所以不依法的是我們行政院不是我們立法院所以我們立法院立法了行政院不尊重我們不只不尊重我們在野黨我們朝黨也是一樣啊也是大家共同努力來的嘛所以我希望說我們要請我們的行政院要依法編列"},{"start":6397.253,"end":6397.413,"text":"一、研商有關"},{"start":6417.347,"end":6419.069,"text":"立法委員有在去退回總預算．要從邊．所以我們希望說．我們要尊重我們立法院．你要退回從邊．是有這樣子的條款的．所以我們希望我們的行政院．"},{"start":6435.086,"end":6442.708,"text":"要自己不要違法要逼著我們立法院跟著你去違法這樣不對的因為我們立法的時候是你同意我們也公告我們的總統也公告了所以這個是我們要求的照我們立法通過來去編列我們很簡單這樣的要求而已所以你一直拖延浪費大家的時間也沒辦法去做質詢"},{"start":6463.595,"end":6467.837,"text":"就像你們說的到現在是誰的錯是行政院整個部會他們的錯你們的錯你們害了行政院長也害了總統已經公布了你們都不編你們都不做到最後變成我們再來怪來怪去這是最最最罪惡的就是行政院你們的團隊沒有把人民把我們立法的通過來去執行這個就是我個人覺得"},{"start":6491.045,"end":6493.449,"text":"大家到最後到現在再浪費時間謝謝大家"},{"start":6505.765,"end":6520.852,"text":"第一點我認為這不是政治攻防這也不是所謂的政治議題這是立法院最卑微的要求要求行政院依法行政所以整個拖延時間的不是在野黨"},{"start":6522.052,"end":6535.992,"text":"是你們民進黨是行政院而且我要再講七名原住民立法委員都同意六萬塊然後院長你還記得嗎你在草野協商的時候也沒有人提四萬塊"},{"start":6537.193,"end":6559.772,"text":"你還要求原民會剩下最後的10分鐘（請他們趕快來跟我們來調解一下（最後的那一個moment以下（是不是可以把它降為我的提案5萬塊（都沒有任何一個人提（行政院沒有人提（組計長沒有人提（行政部門沒有人提4萬（這個所謂的字眼（所以4萬是從哪裡來的（"},{"start":6564.717,"end":6570.565,"text":"這個所謂的法在哪裡我一直要強調再來就是剛剛主席講的我不同意為什麼113年4月17號我做內政委員會的召委我還是要提醒一下法務部門他說"},{"start":6581.158,"end":6608.191,"text":"有關原民權益的保障事項．主管機關．跟大院的職權．還有決定本部競表尊重．這是法務部的立場．第二個是農業部的立場．農業部說提高禁法補償金．還有擴大禁法的範圍區域．對於維護森林還有自然保育資源．是有正面的效應．我們再來看一下主計總處．回應我們質詢的立委．他的回答說什麼．雖然不是主計長你說的．他說"},{"start":6609.972,"end":6633.619,"text":"如果修法通過的話基本就是屬於法律所必須編列的支出我們行政部門就必須要編列預算的時候會依照所通過的規定來編列這是主計總處在現場的回應這是公務人員的回應更何況主計總長"},{"start":6635.419,"end":6656.593,"text":"今年9月25號到我的辦公室你忘了嗎?主席總長你特別同意我剛剛所講的那些法律我就不要再贅述您最後告訴我們的是說你希望原民會趕快現在補提案到行政院去補足不額的部分"},{"start":6657.373,"end":6679.741,"text":"希望原民會能夠依法辦理主計長您說的話您忘記了嗎我都有錄影下來然後最後我要說蔡玉這個幹事長你說財政紀律法我還是回歸到104年的確是有修正當然是109年的6月三倍卷要我們人民的納稅錢編515億哇好大的一筆數額"},{"start":6684.162,"end":6688.463,"text":"第110年9月的五倍建要我們人民納稅前的1100億人民會現在只需要17億這有大量的金額嗎?行政院長有必要為了這個17億在這邊浪費大家的時間嗎?如同吳思堯幹事長所講的大家不要拖延時間了如果你們真的有誠意如果你們真的"},{"start":6711.491,"end":6737.587,"text":"願意依法行政的話．那麼就趕快來處理這件事情．把沒有編族的時期一編好．大家就可以來審預算了．最後我要講．台灣到底是不是一個民主法治的國家．如果是的話．就請行政院依法行政謝謝謝謝高經緯請柯建民總召發言完以後．我們就要準備休息一下請我想大家都講．台灣是不是民主法治國家．"},{"start":6738.946,"end":6749.362,"text":"剛才我一開始講話也是我們是一個法治國一直要講說照行政院要依法行事當然行政院一定要依法行事啦所以我們的"},{"start":6750.68,"end":6774.737,"text":"我們不管行政院或是立法院（所有的都必須在合憲合法底下來做事情（這是一個大案子（所以沒有所謂的誰可以（誰可以不依法行事的那為什麼今天這個爭執當然（剛才也講過（這個三途通過（賴總統也聽下山去公告（所以這個法是合憲以火（那有待釋憲"},{"start":6776.218,"end":6787.852,"text":"然後今天我在這裡講到就是說我們想辦法來解決問題也沒有說在這裡真是什麼但是回到一個很核心的問題就是說剛才我開始講然後大家也一直在講這個問題就是說1391條的問題"},{"start":6791.161,"end":6820.223,"text":"我整個邏輯是從憲法70條到四憲、264、391到財化法、到預算法、到財經紀律法這是一個我們要一起看待的在一起看待的時候我們如何來解決這個問題所以我剛才講完以後大家一直講說你剛才講這個什麼預算法91條要遵守行政院的意見對不對然後找出財源這個就是問題之所在"},{"start":6823.401,"end":6835.416,"text":"1998年預算法修正的時候我在現場因為這是立法院寫的法案立法院要增加預算當然他知道在憲法上面預算其實屬於行政院的"},{"start":6836.499,"end":6852.112,"text":"一、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":6862.04,"end":6873.91,"text":"否則的話根本就不必理立法院啦不必理理會行政院嘛所以這醫生法精神是這樣的如此我希望就是說大家把這個東西要談清楚齁"},{"start":6876.047,"end":6894.063,"text":"我們假如弄一個法,那通過在核心性底下有問題的話,像這個法,我們這個計畫補償這樣增加一倍以上的預算。假如說這個我們沒有在核心性底下討論這個事情的話,那過去兩照那一說的預算,"},{"start":6898.186,"end":6924.959,"text":"要通過法通過都要執行,這個國家怎麼讓得下去呢?這個國家沒有辦法走下去的啊。我們知道有兩兆的反腦高齡等等。所以這個東西我希望大家冷靜一下。今天並沒有說所謂行政對顏素敏有任何苛刻。我希望顏素敏,我知道你MUD運氣你的選民爭取福利,這天經地義我都贊成。"},{"start":6926.059,"end":6943.813,"text":"我們大家不要情緒制言我今天盡量不要講情緒制言就是說因為一個政策的政策行程要政策評估一個政策優先訊息研訊費經費多少?說是100就是110億左右嘛那你假如增加了double的話就要變成26億變成50億占整個研訊委員會經費的47%"},{"start":6951.195,"end":6959.796,"text":"那它是加費了多少人?只是7%的人在研究這個東西7%嘛,7%到9%的人那原住民委員會他有很多政務要推動"},{"start":6961.318,"end":6989.534,"text":"人事部門、AOB還有很多這個地方的馬路等等﹖很多公共政策接動所以造成他可以動用資金,假如這樣的話當然他可以動用資金只剩12%而已所以我們現在講的不是說整個政府三兆多少,這個只有幾億而已我們講是一個因為政策行人上面他有固定的政策評估優先順序"},{"start":6992.884,"end":7006.949,"text":"比如說,剛才吳征仁委員講得很清楚,大家沒那麼硬,為什麼這麼硬幹什麼?我們還不是這麼硬,大家也會覺得很悶啊,到底這個要是幾億你們在爭什麼呢?你們執行長在爭搞什麼鬼?"},{"start":7011.704,"end":7028.871,"text":"我也不希望如果這樣一個不是等比喻的一個好邏輯上面去上我們回來這整個憲政體制上面來看前立婚姻原則 這樣可以的說 立法根本就不要了"},{"start":7029.881,"end":7052.052,"text":"你說要證明當然要證明行政院同意這是一個本來就是要這樣我們法國會多數怎麼通過的法你就要照做這個責任真是沒有辦法產生的所以我今天是在嘗試解決說我們大家同意的話用示範然後到物價指數每兩天調整一次這個跟行政院談還有空間"},{"start":7053.866,"end":7062.526,"text":"當然不行的話只有四前一途啦,我們大家在政委這裡,政委半天還是要回到合憲合法上面去談啦"},{"start":7065.71,"end":7067.311,"text":"一、請主席長針對本次協商各黨團所提的意見"},{"start":7088.294,"end":7113.972,"text":"再進一步研擬出世界解決方案．包括禁法補償、工糧收購、健保點值等．於下次協商會議時提出．二、我們下次協商時間定於．請各黨團幹部來關切一下．21號星期一早上．當天請主席長提出具體解決的方案．"},{"start":7116.343,"end":7129.455,"text":"各位黨團幹部對我這樣的一個結論有沒有意見?對,21號早上第二個勒,我們選擇24號,不行我們還要再加開協商所以我們先提21號星期一早上10點"},{"start":7131.923,"end":7152.81,"text":"我們在此當天再請主席長具體的提出來正好您大概有將近有三到四天可以去好好溝通一下顯然你這邊不提出大家可以看得到各黨團大家的意見紛紛都提出來了那因為我們今天有四個案我們下面要進入到考試委員的"},{"start":7154.11,"end":7161.397,"text":"考試委員人事同意權以及能源配比以及公正選拔我們還要往下推,我想請教各黨團幹部,要不要訂便當?"},{"start":7178.132,"end":7178.673,"text":"如果大家同意要繼續開會"},{"start":7189.602,"end":7217.588,"text":"沒關係,我們黨團協商到時候會徵詢各黨團的意見如果我們要持續開會下去的話我們現在總務部門要準備各位的午餐所以要徵詢一下大家這個每個都要徵詢而且考試委員人事同意權我們要進入到第二案那我想這樣的話,我知道各委員心中還是有一些話要講我建議是等到下一次主計長提出具體方案的時候大家再把意見提出來可能這樣會比較好一點,好嗎?"},{"start":7221.109,"end":7232.455,"text":"對,下禮拜一預計大概在下午另外一點就是說我們休息五分鐘之後我們進入第二案因為考試院人事同意權我們不能卡在這裡好不好好,那我們休息五分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":7696.516,"end":7699.901,"text":"麻煩各黨團黨部工作夥伴通知一下黨團幹部,我們進來開會好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":7740.462,"end":7754.728,"text":"各黨團幹部通知一下工作夥伴隊,我們加緊時間好不好,我們等一下已經訂中午的午餐了好,謝謝我們各黨團幹部都到場了,現在大家請坐下"},{"start":7756.79,"end":7784.823,"text":"現在我們針對第二案第14屆考試院人事同意權案那113年10月4號已經交付協商現在就叫各位黨團幹部我們請柯建民總召請發言我剛才也有談當然今天重重之重還是有關於三大預算至於考試院人事同意權乃至於後面都有同意權"},{"start":7786.243,"end":7814.999,"text":"台灣大法院在試卷也暫時處分當然同意權裡面在立法院通過同意權起始總共五個條文29條、29條之一、30條、3條之一31條是當然是比較不重要,就通過以後報總統所以裡面有29條之一、30條之一被暫時處分乃至於29條的時候在向法庭的時候,黃常委員"},{"start":7816.079,"end":7838.23,"text":"那我問到一個問題,點出一些問題就是說,審查的時候可以找社會公正人士或是團體來參與審查,這個當然有變成外面人發聲為立法委員那這是立法院通過的法案,那我比較沉穩建議就是說"},{"start":7839.571,"end":7850.218,"text":"我相信大好官做到10月底這月底前應該事先出來我們看事先出來的文字是怎麼樣那我們再來討論這樣可能比較合理"},{"start":7855.969,"end":7878.886,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言那國民黨團、那個台灣民眾黨團那我如果針對這個精神發言的內容那我們針對第二案呢我們就是同意權行使我們就繼續溝通然後那個...好副總召請抱...抱歉齁各政黨總是要一次發言的嘛對不對不能說執政者在發言沒有沒有完全尊重請副...副總召請我想考試院的人事啊"},{"start":7881.161,"end":7909.491,"text":"我們要謝謝院長今天召集對考試院的人士是否能夠到立法院來審議提出了今天的朝野協商我想我們是樂觀其成畢竟我們國家考試要經過考試院的相關的這些相關單位來執行這些國家人才的這些八卒的工作那國民黨的立場"},{"start":7910.982,"end":7935.577,"text":"是對這件事是樂觀其成但是我們比較好奇就是到現在為止可能他的任期已經考試院的政府院長的任期可能已經結束了8月底結束但是我們比較好奇就是說執政黨到現在為止對這件事情到底是有沒有正式的提出來我們趕快來協商"},{"start":7937.983,"end":7956.854,"text":"是不是能夠盡快來對這些人事案（能夠進入實質的審查國民黨的立場是希望國家的這些人才的把柱（這個所有的這些程序不要有任何的延宕我們願意全力的來配合好不好好 謝謝我們台灣民眾黨黨團提出這個案子基本上就是善意"},{"start":7965.883,"end":7987.448,"text":"要不然一天到晚在媒體上面放話做梗圖說讓什麼國家考試沒有辦法舉行讓人看不下去所以我們就提案要審嘛那如果現在如果連執政黨自己都認為他們不急要等憲法法庭我們也OK啊"},{"start":7988.836,"end":8013.84,"text":"這種事情沒有什麼好爭執的啦那只是就請今天過了以後我們就依照我們的執政黨黨團的意見得到憲法法庭做出解釋以後那再來審查就不要一天到晚再繼續抹黑在野黨說在野黨都不審人事同意權不要在這邊講一套出去又講另外一套這樣就好了"},{"start":8015.704,"end":8036.329,"text":"好,謝謝黃總召發言,柯總召請二組發言一分鐘就好,感謝剛才副總召及黃總召所發言的樂觀其成基本上我印象中沒有做什麼惡意攻擊至少我不會這樣講不要笑得那麼詭異吧"},{"start":8041.243,"end":8050.049,"text":"我們在8月2號就發文了,坦白講那我想這一題大家有公私,因為將來沒有考試,考試院長都很麻煩那個考試我們已經承擔不起了,謝謝"},{"start":8053.107,"end":8070.135,"text":"那兩位長如果沒有的話三個黨團總長我來唸一下一個結論同意權行使我們就繼續溝通接下來進行第三案第三案就是能源配比專案報告同意嗎好謝謝我們現在各位黨團幹部我們現在進行第三案關於"},{"start":8072.81,"end":8083.768,"text":"第三案關於我們賴政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備諮詢案這是台灣民眾黨提出線請表達意見"},{"start":8086.287,"end":8102.366,"text":"這是台灣民眾黨黨團本來在院會裡面提出來的既然要進入協商冷凍期一個月我們也尊重目前立法院職權刑事法生效的法律它就要進入協商冷凍期我們覺得這個能源配比"},{"start":8103.027,"end":8128.476,"text":"跟電價政策非常的重要有必要請卓榮泰院長帶著經濟部部長相關的部會首長到院會裡面來進行專案報告因為是全體國人非常非常的關心雖然昨天在經濟委員會在委員會的層級有針對這件事情試圖的請我們的經濟部部長、郭智輝、郭部長"},{"start":8130.617,"end":8137.222,"text":"來進行說明不過我相信昨天的委員會結束了以後恐怕留給大家的問題"},{"start":8139.217,"end":8166.925,"text":"遠遠多過於解決的問題因為根本說不清楚講不明白嘛你昨天在整個經濟委員會討論的過程當中包括了未來的能源配比未來再生能源如何從現在到2022之前跳票嘛2025年說要到20現在延到2026年的時候說要到20%嘛那基本的路徑到底要怎麼達成盤點"},{"start":8169.276,"end":8192.211,"text":"需要的土地要從什麼地方來因為昨天的那個整個報告的內容我相信很多委員都有參與那我自己的評價最起碼從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場的評價是認為他留下來的問題比取決問題還要多所以我們還是認為有必要進行這個專案報告說清楚講明白"},{"start":8194.47,"end":8210.704,"text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團總召黃國昌的發言已經提出來他為什麼要請求召集朝野協商針對這個能源配比跟電價政策請問剩下兩位黨團有沒有哪一位要發言請傅昆吉總召、柯定斌總召請準備"},{"start":8214.685,"end":8234.467,"text":"我想這個是目前大概我們國家非常重要所重的一件重大的事情而且跟民生非常非常的息息相關對於到底今年已經漲了兩次電價那明年還要漲幾次電價"},{"start":8236.823,"end":8258.46,"text":"那過去已經2023年已經撥補了2500億在一後又撥補了500億那現在加上今年明年又再加2000億那總共加起來是可能本席一直在懷疑是不是我看錯資料要撥補5000億啊那接下來到底"},{"start":8259.827,"end":8261.129,"text":"三、研商有關三、研商有關三、研商有關"},{"start":8277.09,"end":8299.746,"text":"兩二一你都很辛苦這個到菜市場去萬屋皆漲就是因為電價漲所有的民生物資品全部都在大漲所以這關係到全國民生的問題我想這個是非常一個嚴肅的問題我們想盡快能夠請總統參議院長就我們國家能源發展的政策到底是怎麼樣全國人民有必要了解 謝謝"},{"start":8300.646,"end":8327.499,"text":"好,接下來我們謝謝,請民進黨黨團請發言有關於紅總召所提出能源配比這個專案報告當然剛才也談到昨天在委員會也提過當然還有一些沒有辦法適宜至於還有一些問題要問能夠體會那紅總剛才也談了嘛但是呢他並不是博普遷移台電整個的"},{"start":8328.439,"end":8343.472,"text":"整個財務結構是這樣他先增資然後今年在追算撥補一千億明年再一千億這樣的話他大概能夠整個財務結構相對健全能夠執意平衡當然他這中間還有要漲價的部分"},{"start":8351.039,"end":8376.933,"text":"那電當然是我們不可能一直用電去補助一些賺錢的行業這是一個社會公平的問題所以我們要再請院長來做專案報告我認為也無可啦沒關係啦可以的啦但是我們是覺得我們先把總預算很多題目慢慢推上來好不好要先順序先推一下同意啦沒有關係再來排時間"},{"start":8378.769,"end":8383.951,"text":"現在我們請經濟部郭部長請表達意見好嗎?好,謝謝謝謝韓院長以及各位委員大家好那麼以下針對能源配比跟這個電價政策我先做一個簡要的這個說明我國的能源"},{"start":8404.057,"end":8417.673,"text":"轉型政策以及再生能源為主軸．同時搭配低碳天然氣發電．並推動地熱、小水利等新能源的利用．穩定供電、多元綠能、減煤減碳．這樣與國際趨勢是一致的"},{"start":8424.605,"end":8450.662,"text":"那麼能源配比以2030年達燃氣五成．再生能源三成．燃煤兩成為目標那麼有關於這個電價的政策電價是否調整是由電價審議委員決定已經依立法院的決議由學者參加及民間團體代表所組成的外部委員人數過半"},{"start":8452.981,"end":8475.46,"text":"那麼電價審議將具有更專業以及代表性本市的電價調整審議委員秉持的照顧民生穩定電價以及兼顧產業競爭力這個兩項原則來進行民生用電含民生用電一共有95%是沒有調整的那麼景氣不好的產業"},{"start":8476.909,"end":8477.029,"text":"以上報告謝謝國部長"},{"start":8492.725,"end":8517.454,"text":"到時候專案報告你剛剛講的內容你可能還要再講一次那各位黨團幹部我想我嘗試性的提出一個我的建議就是各黨團同意10月25號星期五邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席提出賴清德總統政府所提能源配比及電價政策專案"},{"start":8519.366,"end":8520.609,"text":"報告並備質詢．質詢人數由國民黨團推派7位．"},{"start":8527.184,"end":8540.074,"text":"民進黨團推派七位台灣民眾黨團推派一位進行每位委員質詢詢答時間為15分鐘質詢順序依例授權議事處處理名單請於10月24日星期四中午12點前交議事處會診預時視同放棄請問各黨團幹部針對行政院院長到院專案報告"},{"start":8555.928,"end":8558.453,"text":"電價能源配比以及電價政策（有沒有其他寶貴意見?好,請吳思瑤幹事長請發言"},{"start":8564.538,"end":8586.723,"text":"謝謝院長辛苦了那剛剛看到這個運營結論現在大家討論一下方向上我們也都尊重在野黨提出這樣專案報告的請求那我還是就是說再希望再爭取一下因為從上一次的第一次的那個協商也有這個議案那時候我們就希望主張因為整個能源政策、電價"},{"start":8588.443,"end":8589.524,"text":"〈中央政府總預算案．第14屆考試院人事同意權．"},{"start":8604.795,"end":8606.637,"text":"中共黨的立場是同意這個專案報告（但是它跟追加檢的預算應當是一併來考量（這樣委員在質詢上更全面（"},{"start":8627.279,"end":8641.482,"text":"那政策是有連帶性的,我們做出這樣的建議。謝謝,但是專案報告跟預算編列它性質是不一樣的。以前也有,以前也有。郭秘書長,你不要阻擋什麼可以不可以,就是有人在談話,請各黨,不是你在參加朝鮮商會。我們請,沒問題,請林思明,區長請發言。是,謝謝主席。"},{"start":8651.924,"end":8667.678,"text":"我想針對吳世耀幹事長的這個說要併附來追加減這部分來在專案報裡面的署名我想這是根本兩回事啊我們現在的專報是行政院來就我們的能源配比還有能源結構來做專報怎麼會牽扯到這個所謂追加減預算的問題呢"},{"start":8672.262,"end":8672.522,"text":"總統請發言,然後請蔡議員與幹事長請準備"},{"start":8694.448,"end":8715.494,"text":"這個是我們台灣民眾黨的提案台灣民眾黨的提案就是針對能源配比跟電價政策來進行專案報告那那個跟追加減的預算是兩個不同層次的事情上次在協商的時候我已經清楚的表達了這個立場那民進黨如果要提什麼追加減預算的報告那就請他們自己提嘛"},{"start":8716.895,"end":8732.934,"text":"他們的建議並不在我提案的範圍當中我們提案的內容非常的具體明確就是按照能源配比一天要政策進行專案報告那這個金夫惡毒被拉卸商也不是拉卸商反正現在新法就強制進入卸商嘛"},{"start":8733.615,"end":8746.251,"text":"然後等一個月嘛那所以我們就靜待嘛靜待協商期滿的時候就按照一次規則來處理嘛那院長所預擬的這個決議啊我們原則上是沒有什麼"},{"start":8747.438,"end":8764.797,"text":"沒有什麼問題啦因為771嘛按照政黨的席次來做比例上面的分配我們也都尊重那我只是想說可不可以爭取一下說那個美國委員巡達的時間啊可以稍微再長一點因為我們台灣民眾黨只有一個人"},{"start":8765.918,"end":8788.209,"text":"是不是每位委員巡達的時間?因為我看現在如果每位委員巡達的時間15分鐘的話加起來是15個人嘛15個人的話你如果說一個小時可以進行4個人嘛大概4個小時多一點點就結束了嘛你如果說以上午下午都有時間可以用大概可以用到5個多小時的話"},{"start":8789.289,"end":8810.576,"text":"那尋答的時間是不是可以稍微斟酌﹐把它延長到﹐譬如說像20分鐘這個樣子﹐因為我時間大概算過了﹐如果到20分鐘的話﹐剛好是用滿一整個整天嘛﹐那只是說這樣子的時間上﹐我只是提這樣一個建議啦﹐其他黨團﹐其他黨團同不同意﹐我們都尊重"},{"start":8813.074,"end":8819.818,"text":"科總召、副總召,如果這樣的話,黃總召提這個,我們可不可以再改為992?等一下我講一下"},{"start":8822.659,"end":8840.451,"text":"關於專案報告,剛才我們民進黨團有提到就和追加減預算是蔡英文幹事長先發言剛才我們提到,是不是可以跟追加預算在一起嗎?正式和預算絕對是相關的"},{"start":8842.432,"end":8865.749,"text":"為什麼要增加預算一千億?總預算裡面還明年度還一千億當然這可以併談,假如不併談我們也不堅持,當然不堅持因為我跟曹偉強彼此非常尊重嘛有些大家有疑問的話問清楚,包括剛才賀文綺總長說要補充五千億所以說有誤解才會產生這種結果,大家談清楚"},{"start":8870.825,"end":8898.651,"text":"這次沒有到五千億那...明天這次完畢了我們現在只剩下...剩下...這定價也賬完了嘛剩下兩個...兩個追加預算OK你老闆只有這樣一個不要找我沒意見因為追加預算總是還是要一個追加預算總是...院長還要再報告一次啦都無所謂那...大家如共如情策沒關係那我們...我們得去問至於..."},{"start":8901.511,"end":8926.049,"text":"過去都是771啦有任何方式啦過去有常常就是說臺聯報告時代一樣要求底下算上寫我會當一個給他就是我們當一個給他過去啦常常就是說我們黨是不是可以當一個給民眾黨反正你們合在一起嘛就私下"},{"start":8927.58,"end":8937.973,"text":"信息是長期以來這個都是一定的啦這個長期以來都是一定的長期以來都是一定的要死還要生啊我們都扭一顆蝦魚就變兩顆嘛因為分30分鐘嘛"},{"start":8943.721,"end":8970.956,"text":"兩、研商有關 吳淳淳也有人問嘛 這樣也可以解決啊大家自己調配就好 國際中常理都是這樣處理特別謝謝柯總召啊 這個總預算不偏然後現在連國民黨的這些扣打你也在幫我們分配啦這個真的是 執政黨已經管到在野黨來了我們老柯是草野都在管"},{"start":8973.298,"end":8997.169,"text":"立法院秘書長也是我們柯總召的管區,他一併管秘書長不是在這裡吵一槍,他可以懷孕了沒有關係,有意見大家都可以講老柯啊,你在這裡30年了,真的啦除了男人生小孩不行以外,其他都可以啦,我們慢慢討論沒關係啦就男人不可能懷孕嘛對不對"},{"start":8998.81,"end":9005.918,"text":"如果柯總召可以懷孕,我也很佩服他。其實我們既然是開會,從早上法定期間開到下午5點半,那是不是我們就把這個時間把它充分一點?"},{"start":9022.143,"end":9049.018,"text":"這個15分鐘還是20分鐘其實沒有這麼嚴格啦其實大家都可以討論嘛沒有什麼事不能討論啦那是不是我們如果過去就是771的話771的話我們是不是可以調整到20分鐘讓民眾也感覺就是說我們既然是這麼重大的能源政策的議題讓我們是不是就可以啊一個比較完整的一直到下班時間我們完整的把它討論完"},{"start":9051.12,"end":9057.243,"text":"我覺得剛剛那個黃總早所提到那個是不是有這個質詢的時間一個單位是20分鐘我想這樣的話會有一個比較完整的一個詢答確實"},{"start":9063.636,"end":9079.562,"text":"也不會像走馬燈這樣一直跑來跑去好不好好謝謝院長好第一個啦我就說我們就按照本來的人數分配也不需要什麼其他政黨讓不讓的問題"},{"start":9081.543,"end":9108.565,"text":"就按照這個原則定下去就好第二個我只是認為在上班的時間當中算完了那個人數跟15分鐘的時間其實一天院會的時間沒有辦法真正被充分的利用所以我在提議所以就拉到20分鐘你拉到20分鐘了以後你說會到晚上嗎?也不會到晚上啊大概下午5點大概就結束了在整個程序上面"},{"start":9109.467,"end":9111.595,"text":"在整個時間的計算上面一點問題都沒有"},{"start":9114.965,"end":9143.845,"text":"跟各位黨員說明因為我們現在草稿是寫25號是星期五嘛那星期五其實院會都要進行報告事項那報告事項原則上都會經過差不多一個小時所以真正開始讓行政院長來做專案報告他要先說明30分鐘之後大家才每個人15分鐘20分鐘進去771原則上過去這個禮拜五就會比較長除非我們把它改成是星期二早上9點那會時間當然就更充裕"},{"start":9144.685,"end":9154.094,"text":"所以25號或是哪一天當然大家是因為是草稿可以去選擇或去考慮因為這星期五要跟辦禮拜二也可以"},{"start":9155.953,"end":9160.856,"text":"我們還是交換一下意見 這個時間怎麼安排都可以討論現在是這樣喔 因為依我們過去以來的慣例就是譬如說總預算的諮詢 15分鐘嘛 一個人"},{"start":9181.489,"end":9184.79,"text":"我們在政黨質詢或者是個別議員都是15乘以2、30就15是一個單位如果今天要因為專案報告調成一位變20分鐘以後可能就是一個慣例"},{"start":9198.295,"end":9218.391,"text":"所以為了讓我覺得今天我們的出發點都是願意讓小黨多一點時間討論但是不要去把過去的這個規定15分鐘15分鐘制如果這樣就是面對以後可能都變20分鐘成為一個單位所以目標是讓小黨的朋友們可以多一點時間那我真的建議對我們就著聲992這樣是OK的"},{"start":9222.074,"end":9224.315,"text":"其實對於民眾黨來講他們可以從一位20分可以問到兩位30分這樣這個慣例不要輕易的去我覺得這樣可能請大家可以來支持"},{"start":9246.516,"end":9264.032,"text":"那我再修正一下各黨團如果同意的話我們10月29號星期二開始進行行政院長率同相關部會所長列席提出能源配比及電價政策專案報告並被質詢那質詢的人數我們國民黨團推派9位"},{"start":9266.835,"end":9278.92,"text":"民進黨團推派九位（台灣民眾黨黨團推派兩位委員進行（每位委員詢答時間15分鐘（質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理（名單請於10月28日至中午12點以前（送進議事處會診（欲時適同放棄請問各位黨黨幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":9291.24,"end":9294.944,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文草案修正草案"},{"start":9305.236,"end":9323.229,"text":"由副坤崎委員等16人提案（113年7月12日交付協商（二、徐宇峥委員等20位委員提案（113年7月12日交付協商（我們現在請提案委員副坤崎委員請說明謝謝經濟部郭部長的備詢列席謝謝"},{"start":9329.903,"end":9355.717,"text":"在副分局委員發言之前我們先介紹我們今天列席的各位單位的部會內閣首長首先我們歡迎內政部劉部長熱情歡迎再來歡迎我們中央選舉委員會李主任委員熱情歡迎第三位歡迎司法院民視廳的周廳長熱情歡迎法務部的廖參事熱情歡迎還有我們張法官熱情歡迎謝謝"},{"start":9358.591,"end":9360.32,"text":"提案委員、副科技總召請發言"},{"start":9394.435,"end":9414.363,"text":"謝謝院長我想從2016年到現在民進黨能夠執政也能夠第三次的來連任拿到中華民國的這樣的一個執政權"},{"start":9420.39,"end":9441.733,"text":"我想應該是除了好好的來施政以外我們的國家各種體制是應該要安定的那明明憲法就這個公職人員選罷法都寫得很清楚總統副總統的任期"},{"start":9444.795,"end":9468.346,"text":"也包括縣市長、立法委員甚至議員、村里長代表都有明確的這個任期與民有約這個人民經過神聖的投票以後會制定這個四年的任期是一定有他的原因讓他能夠確實能夠好好的來施政"},{"start":9471.072,"end":9499.071,"text":"把人民所託的事項（能夠把它一一的來完成但是我們發現（最近此風不可漲國家社會的動盪（非全民之福有什麼事情尤其在國會大家都可以討論中央的政策都可以討論只要是有利於人民的話真理是越說越明"},{"start":9501.243,"end":9529.948,"text":"在罷免實在是最後一個非常極端的手段這是雖然是國家賦予的一個權利人民的權利但是我們要審慎來使用我想從過去不管這麼多的縣市長也好還是議員也好還是立委也好各政黨都有被圍剿的目標但是我要特別強調"},{"start":9532.448,"end":9558.594,"text":"這個難道這樣擾攘不安能夠讓政治讓我們台灣的政局能夠更加安定嗎尤其現在聽說明年有所謂的大罷免潮這對於國會所有的這些國會議員依法行使職權啊產生了莫大的這樣的壓迫跟威嚇尤其對在野黨來講"},{"start":9561.161,"end":9589.929,"text":"外面有很多一些不實的謠言什麼在野黨有提出啊要罷免執政黨二十席立委的相關的這些所謂的標的人物本席要代表國民黨在這裡嚴正的表達從來就沒有這樣的一個事情不管是我們黨團還是我們黨中央朱立倫主席講得很清楚"},{"start":9591.178,"end":9611.05,"text":"這都不是國家之福我們不能動盪我們從來沒有去規劃任何的相關的這些事務完全沒有我們想在這裡以正視聽做一次講清楚絕對沒有這樣的事情那我也沒不希望說國家執政者用他強大的國家的資源跟優勢來壓迫在野黨讓在野黨的國會議員沒有辦法好好的來執行職務"},{"start":9619.269,"end":9646.789,"text":"尤其尤其剛剛剛剛才在基隆這個行使完成的這個市長罷免案這對整個國家或是地方都是一個莫大成本的一個耗費這在期間是不是整個在地的市民要面對這樣的一個撞擊在整體市政府的施政當中"},{"start":9649.648,"end":9674.776,"text":"是不是能夠很完整順暢的來執行職務這都非國家之福那接下來有各種不同樣的風聲很多但是我們還是要覺得國民有的權利我們尊重不管這25%是否合理"},{"start":9676.061,"end":9701.282,"text":"尤其50%、55%、60%當選的這些公職人員卻用25%要去否決他的職務這個比例就不符合這個相關的原則不符合民意的託付更何況現在還有眾多這個叫做以假亂真以假亂真"},{"start":9704.21,"end":9723.518,"text":"所以這個一支筆幾個人用就可以抄了一堆所謂的連署書我想這個部分也不只是今天本黨所提出來我們也很清楚民進黨的選委會也曾經不斷地對這個問題在質疑"},{"start":9726.308,"end":9749.171,"text":"到底這些聯署是否為本人聯署過去也聽到有所謂的都已經過世了怎麼還會參與聯署而且過世多時所以我們要把人民神聖的權利能夠讓他確實來行使而不會被冒用"},{"start":9751.829,"end":9775.208,"text":"所以我們國民黨本席也提出要確切實施是國民的權益而不是被他人來冒用來取代所以必須在所有連署的時候要比照這個總統的大選的連署必須要有身份證、正反面的影本還有發證日期這個已是"},{"start":9776.99,"end":9785.283,"text":"對國民行使他的權益的時候 這個神聖的權益的時候 不會被其他任何人來給他冒用盜用"},{"start":9786.57,"end":9812.143,"text":"能夠讓我們的一切（能夠更加的清楚（更加的確定（不要讓人民的權益（被無端的冒用行使（所以提出修法（也經過院會的二讀（經過二讀（然後朝野協商（今天院會的協商（就是我們必要的程序的一環（因為在行使最後國會的權益（"},{"start":9815.332,"end":9819.339,"text":"國會就代表百分之百全國的民意當國會要最後做決議之前"},{"start":9820.595,"end":9843.134,"text":"我們一定要執權行事法（所以必須要經過院長的朝野協商所以我們今天所提出來的原因都非常的清楚保障人民的權益不會被冒用盜用濫用所以我們必須要很負責任的提出修法讓這個未來能夠更加的清楚更加的明確"},{"start":9844.615,"end":9854.858,"text":"在這裡提出也希望草野都能夠支持這不是針對誰、針對哪一個黨這是所有的各級公職一體適用不分黨派一體適用謝謝"},{"start":9865.673,"end":9882.511,"text":"謝謝院長我想我的發言先不要進入條文的實質我想跟院長先請教一下依照過去的議事慣例跟議事規則那任何單一的法案那淨附二讀的方式那首先要先由該"},{"start":9883.912,"end":9900.623,"text":"提案的黨團先召集黨團協商（所以我手上也有拿到議事處那正式發文給民進黨團（也就是有關徐宇珍委員或是傅昆齊委員兩位（所提據的選罷法部分條約修正草案（進覆二讀之後由國民黨黨團負責召集協商（所以這兩個"},{"start":9906.867,"end":9924.105,"text":"一案都是國民黨的提案（所以國民黨的黨團協商應當是優先進行（可是都還沒有進行到（然後就已經提到院長主持的朝野協商（在程序上是已經快轉了一些（就是跳過了黨團協商（那當然大家知道這個選罷法這個"},{"start":9926.807,"end":9946.624,"text":"徵意性是需要好好來討論的任何一個程序都不應當來僭越了所以是想要請教院長我覺得在程序上今天不應當在這裡就直接進入您主持的協商就一程序就該程序該怎麼進行我先在程序上做這樣的表述那我沒有進入實質條文的討論謝謝"},{"start":9950.371,"end":9956.534,"text":"選法法每個政黨大概有不一樣的立場那台灣民眾黨之前柯文哲主席我們公開受訪的時候就講了第一個我們並不贊成去調高目前選法法投票的門檻"},{"start":9977.563,"end":10000.444,"text":"但是在連署的階段去真正能夠確保反映連署人的意志而不是被連署那裝腳名冊、抄來抄去這樣的亂象必須要被遏止那我覺得今天黨團協商老實講啦大概就是看能不能有共識但看起來是不會有共識嘛那不會有共識我們接下來就按照程序來進行"},{"start":10005.942,"end":10010.483,"text":"其實負責召集協商黨團要先協商一下過水然後院長來協商我們都知道一定合格研製的像兩黨都不一樣"},{"start":10031.653,"end":10059.276,"text":"那問題副總召剛才也談到所謂的什麼CNC猜題的問題我現在還搞不清楚國民黨到底是哪個案子我是要剛才委員所提供的談的也不合道理其實我們今天都知道將來所有程序就照程序來處理大概不會有爭辯那下禮拜國民黨黨團召集一下假如沒有結論就送來我們再協商一次就再處理就處理也無所謂這樣可能比較大家比較"},{"start":10060.765,"end":10062.927,"text":"我要特別謝謝民進黨團執政者所不斷提出要符合程序正義、要符合議事規則"},{"start":10089.057,"end":10113.717,"text":"國民黨團在這裡清楚表達我們今天由院長召集的協商對於選罷法的協商是非常的清楚完全符合議事規則而且是2016年民進黨籍的院長蘇嘉全先生所定下來不管是這個院會的協商還是委員會的協商只要有經過其中的任何一次就可以交院會來處理"},{"start":10115.134,"end":10137.233,"text":"那今天是由我們把這個成績是拉高了就由院長來召集因為這是近乎二讀的案子而且修正了條文我待會會我謝謝柯總長關心我待會特別送一份到您辦公室我們提出來的案子就很簡單門檻沒有調整但是要確實保護"},{"start":10140.047,"end":10167.221,"text":"國民行使權益不會被冒用、盜用、濫用我們是保護全國國人行使公民的權利所以我們是把這個連署要明確化並沒有調整門檻所以現在不管是國民黨也好我們是負責任的提出這樣的一個法案而且也經過正常的程序請院長來提出召集"},{"start":10168.343,"end":10190.94,"text":"那如果柯總召覺得這個討論是不是可以更充分本席尊重沒有問題請院長辛苦一點我們找個時間掉頭髮我知道看得出來我們再來院長我講一下很簡單"},{"start":10192.662,"end":10220.442,"text":"呃,剛才大家都很善意啦好,不同招數講得很善意但是我為什麼講說施任制一次干你剛才自己有講到施任制的問題所以我不知道你的版本怎樣所謂誠意正義當然共同遵守當然從蘇院,剛才講到蘇院長開始不管你說不管委員會或院會有一個草牙箱就可以不配已經委員會完畢以後底面過水沒有關係至少要院長主持草牙箱這是我們大家的"},{"start":10221.303,"end":10243.775,"text":"要共同遵守,那既然要我們過水一下再來的話因為下次草野鄉我們希望這個內政委員會我們委員也把找來大家談一談,不行就表決嘛,就審議處理嘛因為關係這個法案的人大部分都是不少,今天山長來香港內政委員會的委員我們把他請來,招委長等等都要請來,這樣比較完整一點"},{"start":10245.496,"end":10261.585,"text":"謝謝柯總召發言 現在請黃國昌總召請發言兩位部長 主委跟部長請準備 等一下請表達一下立場好不好好 把那個程 那個剛剛都在講程序性的事情嘛 那台灣民眾黨黨團覺得程序性的事情就要按照之前的意思慣例"},{"start":10263.843,"end":10275.41,"text":"走就好了啦那到底是不是有違反程序正義恐怕也不是任何一個黨團說了就算所以就這個部分就看院長才是看要不要請秘書長跟大家說明一下"},{"start":10279.611,"end":10285.893,"text":"李主委跟劉部長有沒有什麼意見要表示?我們尊重貴院的這個程序,如果是要在另外走程序的話,那我們就先不提供意見。非常好,謝謝李主委。那劉部長請。"},{"start":10304.178,"end":10318.568,"text":"謝謝院長跟三個黨團的幹部我來稍微講一下這次朝野黨團協商的部分大概就是集中在我們傅坤祺委員跟徐宇貞委員裡面提的三個爭點有關第一個爭點就是要罷免提議跟連署要應付身份證影本的規定我們會認為說在個資跟資安上面會有一些疑慮而且涉及選務執行的層面"},{"start":10331.477,"end":10349.914,"text":"這個要多討論第二個爭點是在於說罷免提議人跟連署人應該填寫國民身份證的發證日期一般我們所知道國民身份證大家都會背出身份證號碼但是發證日期大概會一般民眾記憶可以常常知道的"},{"start":10350.675,"end":10372.482,"text":"所以也會增加一些困擾但是我們也是尊重大院在處理要不要處理的妥適性第三個就是要求中選會要建置一個電子系統提供罷免免嫌人徵求提議我們認為說在罷免案的提議人數已經大幅下修而且上一次修改公職選罷法76條是在112年的6月9號"},{"start":10377.303,"end":10397.196,"text":"現在如果在臨時再做一些更動的話（會影響未來在選務跟選證上面的執行上的困擾以上簡單跟各位委員報告好,謝謝劉部長,也謝謝司法院列席的各位官員,謝謝那我想各位黨團幹部念一下今天寫上的結論,大家聽聽看一、選辦法我們就請各黨團繼續溝通"},{"start":10399.818,"end":10420.043,"text":"二、今天我們協商到此為止三、店家配筆專案報告已經完成簽字我們10月29日星期二當天進行還有當天我們不再處理臨時提案各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有的話我們就現在散會好嗎好再一次感謝各位內席的部會首長也謝謝各黨團幹部我們散會"},{"start":10430.385,"end":10434.209,"text":"跟大家溫馨提示一下,等一下我們有便當,大家可以帶一個回去,好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16182","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16182","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc75bc8616f11b328790a0be61fea14818c04c64b87e30630aac3640d079538d285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-17T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-17T11:26:00+08:00","duration":10530,"影片長度":"02:55:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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AI輔助議政管理多元基訊強化授信護規資源連結第7整合資源推動社區處理完善被害人權利保障制度第8 AI提升行政執行績效跨域合作執行各項專頁本部會依照"},{"start":2190.17,"end":2190.951,"text":"請各位委員持續督促指教。謝謝"},{"start":2222.785,"end":2233.391,"text":"現在機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記請登記第一位黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":2261.244,"end":2262.167,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長請鄭部長"},{"start":2272.572,"end":2291.907,"text":"委員早部長早有一件事情先在質詢以前拜託法務部以及新北檢的同仁注意就是最近一段時間在新北市三重分局、屠城分局兩位非常優秀年輕的派出所所長"},{"start":2292.848,"end":2316.151,"text":"因為獨獨駕都往生了留下小朋友那時候去看他們家人的時候大家心裡都非常難過獨駕這個問題一定要重視在你今天的報告裡面你們有說獨品要溯源追查那個部長對於獨駕那兩位的獨品上源現在追到什麼程度有沒有掌握"},{"start":2317.55,"end":2341.199,"text":"這部分檢察官在持續在追查中我相信檢察官絕對不會放棄任何的線索溯源、刨根把這些上游給抓出來溯源、刨根我們一定支持但我希望不是只有法務部書面的文字要認為具體的行動那這件事情我會持續追蹤下去抓出毒品的上游是最重要的事情謝謝委員"},{"start":2344,"end":2356.007,"text":"2017年全國司改會議的時候一個非常重要的議題是社會上對於所謂的偵查大公開或偵查亂公開"},{"start":2358.149,"end":2378.167,"text":"深惡痛絕施改國是會議的時候也做成了一些決議結果沒想到到2024年的現在竟然有記者可以大剌剌的說他經營減掉至少7年經營減掉7年到底是誰被經營了消息來源200%可以信賴結果我們的臺北地檢署"},{"start":2384.492,"end":2408.671,"text":"9月9號的時候說要立案9月16號的時候就說查無不法這件事情部長有沒有掌握有關你這個媒體記者就這樣的一個發言那我想這部分北檢剛剛委員提到臺北地檢署在今年9月9日已經分案來做一個調查所以9月16號就結案了是嗎"},{"start":2413.634,"end":2432.84,"text":"這個案件還沒有結案這個案件還在偵查中那很奇怪喔如果這個案件還沒有結案的話怎麼9月16號臺北地檢署就做結論了說沒有人洩密對這些媒體的一些的報導那我想根據那個那個偵查"},{"start":2433.496,"end":2440.843,"text":"9月16日的時候臺北地檢署的新聞稿是他們沒有人洩密那你卻說偵查還沒有結束所以情況到底是怎麼樣社會上面普遍的認知是北檢9月16日的結案"},{"start":2459.388,"end":2483.759,"text":"這個還沒有結案這個還在偵查中這跟委員報告這個作為辦法的第8條第8條的第一項的第7款對報導的如果說有內容跟事實不符影響的一個社會的一個看法跟影響這些被害人的一個權利等等這部分這個是有澄清的必要所以做事實的澄清"},{"start":2484.919,"end":2512.518,"text":"我想做事實澄清這些媒體做這麼久的報導請先停一下你自己再回去看一下他的新聞稿看到底是結束了還是只是澄清但我要問的請教部長的一件事情是說我們按照有關於法務部加強檢查機關、廉政機關遵守偵查不公開的事實方案這個是北檢自己查自己就可以的嗎?這個我想根據那個"},{"start":2513.767,"end":2534.295,"text":"這個北檢是有一個當然這個有分案來處理但是我想這個北檢對任何媒體的報導有關的新聞會有一個檢討小組那高檢署呢高檢署都要審得上級的機關有一個督導督導齁那這部分高檢是有在督導了解的嗎來啦我們直接看啊這不是督導嘛"},{"start":2535.492,"end":2557.296,"text":"我剛把這個實施方案2018年你們法務部自己公開的全部都把它點出來了來請部長看一下第11點上級的檢察署檢察長或檢察總長應主動派員追查這件事有在做嗎這個我沒有請高檢來調查不用你請高檢調查"},{"start":2560.438,"end":2560.718,"text":"這個高檢有調查中"},{"start":2587.442,"end":2603.164,"text":"這個高檢有主動派人追查什麼時候立案的這個是在媒體的有關這個案件當日就那時候就即時就有做一個行政調查也是同樣9月9日調查完了嗎"},{"start":2604.488,"end":2608.552,"text":"這個9月跟委員做一個澄清齁這個不是在9月9號發新聞稿這是在9月16號發新聞稿我知道啦"},{"start":2625.069,"end":2645.709,"text":"等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下部長請你針對問題回答你看一下臺北地檢署的新聞稿我兩篇都貼出來了第一個是9月9號剛我說過了左邊是9月9號右邊是9月16號剛剛你跟大家澄清了嘛9月16號都還沒有結案到目前為止還在調查是嗎"},{"start":2646.817,"end":2648.858,"text":"我們看一下齁基層檢察官最近反映的心聲是什麼基層檢察官說請法務部開課"},{"start":2677.116,"end":2697.043,"text":"要如何學會被媒體經營的課程可以請被經營多年的學長們擔任講座這個檢察官的心聲部長有沒有聽到這個我不清楚我現在就直接跟你報告這個是基層檢察官在檢察官論壇上面貼的法務部有要考慮開這個課嗎這個我們是對發言人我們才會做發言人的一個教育訓練"},{"start":2705.336,"end":2729.367,"text":"他在諷刺你們啊看不出來喔要如何學會被媒體經營這麼多年啊再往下看請部長多聽聽基層檢察官的心聲你到今天才知道我覺得我有點震驚啊孰難想像啊沒有關係啊不管你是不是真的今天才知道基層檢察官說啊對於解媒一體的亂象"},{"start":2731.073,"end":2755.289,"text":"這不是記者寫的這是檢察官寫的對檢每一體的亂象沒有積極作為將檢方的名氣踩在地上終將成為歷史罪人啊部長覺得這個檢察官沉痛的呼籲有沒有道理我們都會要求我們所屬的來落實偵查不公開那我相信我們會這樣做我們的同仁會這樣處理"},{"start":2756.428,"end":2770.191,"text":"好來看一下之前啊我在司法法制委員會問過兩次了問過兩次了我帶秘密證人去北檢作證結果消息洩漏給進州刊跑獨家當陳歐珀洗地"},{"start":2771.621,"end":2788.781,"text":"我之前沒有公職的時候我用我自己的時間跟精力去追查弊案結果向北檢檢舉結果被竟然被寫出來說檢舉的人是我依照偵查不公開作業辦法這個是可以公開的資訊嗎"},{"start":2790.73,"end":2815.308,"text":"這個已經做行政調查完畢了那這個也是陳報高檢署北檢陳報高檢署那也在陳報最高檢已經簽結了那我想這個這份的調查是這個是的確是有某週刊有做這樣的一個報導但是這個是絕對不是北檢的洩漏出去的所以不是北檢洩漏出去的沒有然後"},{"start":2817.782,"end":2830.413,"text":"後面這個案子是我檢舉的也不是北檢洩漏的這兩個案子你全部都已經偵查完畢了都簽結了這個在最高檢已經函付最高檢什麼時候結果可以給我這個已經簽結了對啊我說什麼時候結果可以通知我被害人不是我嗎那個我再請最高檢來我來看一下齁"},{"start":2844.486,"end":2861.643,"text":"檢查總長痛心疾首這是我上次質詢的時候形態詔所講的痛心疾首完了然後呢痛心疾首完了然後呢然後現在北檢簽結查無不法跟絕大多數的案子啊一模一樣來我們看一下"},{"start":2862.941,"end":2890.178,"text":"司法國是會議改革的方案對違反偵查不公開的規定要從制度面防堵泄密的漏洞也會與法務部研議如何嚴加追究泄密人員的責任這個是司法國是會議的結論我們再往下看法務部改革的方案加強所屬檢查調查及連任機關遵守偵查不公開原則實施方案草案"},{"start":2892.23,"end":2906.981,"text":"要嚴肅的追究責任過去這7年過去這7年針對有關於涉及偵查不公開到目前為止有哪一個案子是成案有哪些人的責任被追究過去這7年因為只有兩種可能性"},{"start":2916.354,"end":2929.365,"text":"一個是 連檢察官都被誤導啦說有檢媒議題啊 踐踏檢察官的名氣啊那個檢察官 在檢察官論壇講這種話是胡說八道根本沒有這樣的事那如果 在另外一方面從斯坦國事會議 做成了這樣的結論到現在7年嘛"},{"start":2943.991,"end":2965.809,"text":"要研議方案要嚴肅追究責任到目前為止7年辦了什麼案子這個跟委員報告齁這個有處分了15人處分了哪15人會後名單可以給我嗎你處分的層級是檢察官還是書記官還是調查員是偵查輔助機關的人員所以不是檢察官嘛也不是調查員嘛"},{"start":2974.798,"end":2995.595,"text":"來我們再往下看你們現在啊偵查不公開的檢討報告葛市長這樣子啊部長請您看一下對於這樣子報告的內容跟成效滿不滿意這個是今年才開始來做一個統計的那我們會去年就有了啦在法務部的網站上面通通都有啦"},{"start":2996.81,"end":3010.659,"text":"臺北地檢署的網站通通都有啦之前的表格更簡單啦你們今年把它改成這個樣子我就問部長嘛對這樣子報告的格式跟內容還有成效滿不滿意我們現在還在14週"},{"start":3016.886,"end":3026.652,"text":"對阿所以我問你阿對這個報告的格式跟內容還有成效你滿不滿意上次的格式我認為更能反映我們現在的一個需求那我們會持續的一個檢討"},{"start":3028.015,"end":3045.622,"text":"我最後齁主席站起來了我只跟院長拜託一件事啊思改國社會議的結論過了7年了以後你實施的結果長成這個樣子啊長成這個樣子啊是不是有符合當初思改國社會議啊決議的內容對於這樣子的成效"},{"start":3049.163,"end":3074.66,"text":"對於這樣子的成效到底大家滿不滿意能不能夠接受今天不是只有少數一兩個人在講連基層檢察官都看不下去啊自己出來砲轟啊上面所屬的長官沒有實際上面的具體作為啊我相信我們的同仁會遵守偵查不公開的一個規定我們也會嚴格的要求你講這個都是空話嘛"},{"start":3075.489,"end":3083.713,"text":"我實際上面具體的案子你有哪一件辦出來我只有一個簡單的問題阿我實際上面具體檢舉的案子有哪一個辦出來全部都是簽結阿全部都是查無不法阿現在受處費的人數是零阿"},{"start":3099.714,"end":3123.126,"text":"請部長把黃委員所要求的內容關於他部分的要做一個具體的回覆。謝謝黃委員、謝謝曾部長。那麼接下來在下次質詢之前,由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢,尚未確定。現在先確定議事錄,請問各位上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏?如果沒有的話,我們議事錄就確定。那接下來我們繼續邀請陳委員進於質詢。"},{"start":3136.755,"end":3143.409,"text":"委員早好謝謝主席部長還有我們各位所長大家早那好"},{"start":3145.114,"end":3164.428,"text":"部長從今天的報告看來大部分還是延續性的政策在持續進進那所以我想就法務部既有的這個業務推動的情形結合幾個議題來跟部長做討論首先是有關我們司法醫療體系的健全我們在上會期也曾經有討論過當時因為這個監護處分人脫逃的事件讓我們法務部對於相關缺失進行"},{"start":3173.774,"end":3200.552,"text":"過這個檢討也為了健全社會的安全網這個保安處分的處所和這個轉嫌機構也必須要競速完善那在近期更因為這個憲判對於金帳的判決讓司法精神醫療再次受到矚目那司法精神病房是由我們法務部及衛福部編列預算共同在各地進行建置從這個合定的完工期程來看"},{"start":3201.552,"end":3223.016,"text":"這個月底應該要有3個地方的這個病房建置完成所以我想請教部長目前這個東部還有北部的病房是否也能如期來完成並開始收治跟委員報告這個北部跟東部都已經完成建置了都已經在收治了收治這些"},{"start":3223.911,"end":3226.734,"text":"安全維護設施的設置和介護人員的規劃培訓應該是由我們法務部來主責"},{"start":3239.301,"end":3262.472,"text":"由於這個司法精神病房還有這個醫療將醫院的部分將陸續完工收治的病床數也會相應的增加那相關的這個管理措施還有人力規劃都需要提前來準備來完備收治的作業那我想再請教部長就是目前在人力規劃和培訓上能否充分的因應我們收治的需求"},{"start":3263.232,"end":3287.062,"text":"好謝謝委員那目前那個司法精神病房的安全維護的人員我們都有辦理那個一個勤務的一個訓練那另外在北中南東這個司法精神的一個病房這部分我們這部分的保全人員就是人力目前是充足的"},{"start":3288.086,"end":3306.606,"text":"人力沒問題人力這部分是沒問題好那對於從這個前年底就開始收治的南部醫院是似乎因為缺乏編制介護人員導致他必須以外聘保全的方式來因應但可能因為工作危險性較高"},{"start":3307.647,"end":3311.469,"text":"這部分的確這個保全的在對介護這些收容人的確是要比較多的一個"},{"start":3337.426,"end":3363.54,"text":"專注力跟專注的時間的確是高於一般的保全的工作那這造成流動力比較高那這部分我們再分析整個原因我們再做一個檢討那作為對加強對這些的訓練以及對這些的一個專業的一個培訓我想這邊可以讓這些的流動力能夠降低能夠充分的維護這些司法精神病患的這個介乎的一個問題"},{"start":3364.46,"end":3386.406,"text":"好 那這個安全維護的部分務必要準備齊全之外對於這個設置專責的司法精神病房我們也期待他能夠發揮更大的這個效果能夠給予我們監護處分人適當的這個安置和治療那也希望完全杜絕這個脫逃的情形再次發生"},{"start":3386.786,"end":3387.206,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3412.997,"end":3438.803,"text":"檢察機關跟司法警察機關的聯繫是非常的密切那尤其對這些有簽約的醫院的這些受監護處分人的這些的安全維護我們都會跟警方做密切的一個聯繫合作那有關委員關心的就是定期拍照這個問題我們在保安處分執行法這部分我們內陸修法的所以在這邊再做一個研議"},{"start":3439.563,"end":3458.935,"text":"所以目前還沒有就對了目前還沒有那我們會嚴厲在這邊在在保安處分執行法這邊是不是來做一個一個修法我們再在嚴厲中這部分我們再嚴議看看那司法精神醫院和這個病房的建置我想不管是在法界還是醫界或大眾都期待很久了"},{"start":3459.395,"end":3486.087,"text":"希望我們法務部能夠和衛福部競速將相關的設施和措施都準備到位並持續的精進這部分再請部長跟同仁繼續努力再來我想跟部長您探討的是法務部在柔性司法中也有提及到有關社會勞動的制度社會勞動作為6個月以下輕罪的替代方案"},{"start":3487.389,"end":3504.235,"text":"若能完善制度並加以推動相信對於緩解監獄超收達成教化功能和社會公益能創造三贏的局面我想請教部長對於社會勞動制度目前實施的成效如何評估"},{"start":3509.353,"end":3524.39,"text":"社會勞動服務的確是可以減少短期自由行的流弊在就業這邊可以兼顧但實質上的消費的確是減少短期自由行的流弊避免標籤化"},{"start":3526.112,"end":3543.534,"text":"那第二就是矯正資源的分配可以更合理化那再來就可以避免增加這個矯正的一個預算經費減少國家的財政負擔另外最重要還可以紓解監獄超收擁擠安全的我想這是一個直接可以看到的一個效益"},{"start":3545.776,"end":3574.357,"text":"好但是從這幾年我們這個社勞案件逐漸上升的趨勢來看可能會遭遇到一些問題看到我們法務部所提供的資料在今年1到8月就已經執行完成10353件那審計部也曾提到這個審核意見有部分這個地檢署管理這個社勞案件的官戶佐理員可能因為案件量的"},{"start":3575.077,"end":3589.699,"text":"增加難以負荷導致離職率偏高而且目前這個空缺未能補期所以直接導致人員這個調度上的困難那這部分法務部應該要如何來因應"},{"start":3590.78,"end":3614.147,"text":"這部分我想仍少示範我們也知道這個佐立委員的待遇也是比較偏低那跟其他的這些比較前我們認為還有調整的空間所以我們在114年預計要調新幅度要調整7%讓這些我們關乎佐立委員能夠久任那我想這是我們努力在做這一部分"},{"start":3618.073,"end":3635.138,"text":"社勞合作執行機關方面本席曾經接到機關首長反映社勞人員可能因為請假或缺席未到導致執行人力陰道跟時道的情況有落差在人力派遣的管理上"},{"start":3635.418,"end":3635.438,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3655.802,"end":3682.955,"text":"就是我們在簽到退這一部分齁我們應用科技的一個設備目前我們是可以用不定時的用手機或者通訊軟體來來查證這個社勞人他的簽到退的情形那如果說我們可以可以更精進的話我們再評估齁是不是個引進那個AI的輔助電子簽到的一個方式齁那目前大概是因為整個一個執行的機構那邊未必一定有"},{"start":3683.575,"end":3683.995,"text":"另外我再請教部長有關這個"},{"start":3708.582,"end":3736.977,"text":"上司煙彈對於社會所造成的這個危害那近期我們看到這個上司煙彈等新興的毒品在社會中不斷的蔓延不但這個吸食的人口越來越多也發現許多起這種毒價這個吸毒之後駕駛汽車了所造成的這種死傷這個悲劇那我們也看到8月份法務部和行政院已經將這個上司煙彈列為這個三級毒品但這個毒品"},{"start":3737.637,"end":3737.857,"text":"我想...呃..."},{"start":3753.826,"end":3773.766,"text":"這部分我們會跨部會來做一個合作那有關你這個藥防肚這些上次煙彈進入校園我想我們會在在那個安居氣毒專案跟校園青春的專案我們把它列入查緝的重點尤其這一藥頭我們會會強力的一個守盪防止這進入校園另外我們在"},{"start":3774.326,"end":3789.961,"text":"校園委員會全力來做一個宣導認識這些毒品的危害讓這些學生避免因為因為有一些像用電子煙的或其他的呈現而不小心去使用到這些的一個毒品那個謝謝委員的關心我們這邊會來會來努力來做"},{"start":3791.823,"end":3810.064,"text":"那對於這個新興毒品和這個毒價所造成的死傷讓社會大眾都感到非常的痛心那先前我們也看到警政署長曾表示過建議中央提高此類這個新興毒品的這個刑度那對此我想請教部長未來有沒有可能對於這個部分來做相關的修法規劃"},{"start":3811.225,"end":3824.097,"text":"我想這個整個社會的一個反應跟包括整個一個我們團隊的一個反應意見是不是可以提高或做一個管制我們會我們會有讀品的一個讀審會來做一個進行的一個審議"},{"start":3827.7,"end":3834.504,"text":"打擊毒品我相信是我們法務部和相關部會一直以來都是積極努力的一個目標然後我也希望說這個法務部跟相關部會可以持續精進防治毒品濫用的情形也可以減少對社會"},{"start":3853.84,"end":3881.902,"text":"所造成的相關傷害以上請我們法務部跟各部會所長積極努力好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝鄭部長接下來有請吳委員私謠質詢部長你可以先休息一下好 謝謝主席那部長喝口水還是辛苦大家"},{"start":3883.41,"end":3883.71,"text":"上午9點35分"},{"start":3899.83,"end":3918.508,"text":"在過25分鐘﹐我們即將要跟朝野各黨團﹐包括韓國瑜院長﹐召集了協商﹐終於希望能夠針對總預算案﹐能不能夠成功地突破僵局﹐能夠赴為審查。稍後的協商﹐我想社會都在看﹐全民都在等。"},{"start":3919.349,"end":3924.395,"text":"那我也整理了一下在總預算其實沒有辦法審查預算法54條的規範之下呢新興的計畫新增的預算沒有辦法執行所以total來到2050億"},{"start":3934.947,"end":3953.568,"text":"所以這2050億方方面面攸關照顧人民福祉臺灣的建設要進步能不能夠來化解我們稍後會有答案但是呢下一頁就您所執掌的法務部主管的相關預算受影響的有哪些"},{"start":3954.971,"end":3969.615,"text":"這部分總共有跟委員報告那法務部影響的這部分有新興計畫的有總共有11項包括法醫研究所的強化法醫鑑識能量的科技計畫矯正屬的有矯正機關科技安全網建置計畫以及矯正機關"},{"start":3973.136,"end":3974.557,"text":"總共有11項,我整理出來大概數額會是11.26億"},{"start":3997.947,"end":4023.726,"text":"他會focus在我們上會期剛剛完成的打詐司法裡頭打詐的新興的工具使用的升級所以呢打詐升級的預算被擋了那也包括你剛剛講的強化法醫鑑識的量能這些讓我們強化基層工作人員讓他辦案更專業也能夠減輕我們一直在司法法制委員會大家都說要為司法人員減壓"},{"start":4025.647,"end":4044.008,"text":"這些科學化的信心工具要導入被擋了那當然我們一直不足的矯正經費也受了影響所以我這裡整理的11.26億元這段時間你們有沒有強化跟朝野的委員做說明呼籲倡議"},{"start":4046.533,"end":4075.279,"text":"每一分每一秒每一毛都是必要之用的計畫項目不是嗎是我們這部分我們有請我們及本部及所屬就有這新新的這個計畫我們就是要拜託委員來多一個支持因為這的確很重要像調查局有些科技辦案的這些要整個一個新的一個犯罪手法的一個查緝的這些的追緝的這些尤其是網路犯罪"},{"start":4075.959,"end":4078.344,"text":"委員們不要在質詢的時候要求看到打炸的成果然後擋打炸的預算"},{"start":4088.345,"end":4105.501,"text":"委員們不要在法制委員會每次都為司法人員的權益大聲疾呼要照顧司法人員減壓然後預算砍了也不要委員們每次在這裡說我們對於改善我們的監獄預鎖這個看守所所有的"},{"start":4107.308,"end":4119.727,"text":"這些矯正相關的作業要升級要更人道要跟上國際的人權思維結果預算都沒丁沒當我再次期待稍後的"},{"start":4120.99,"end":4130.821,"text":"朝野協商我們可以讓該做的事情每一分每一毫都要用在刀口上唯有透過實質的審查才能夠對預算的編列跟執行的計畫進行嚴格的把關跟審視而不是擋著不審擋著擺爛擋著來癱瘓國家"},{"start":4142.847,"end":4164.839,"text":"那我接下來下一頁我接下來講的預政改革跟預算也大有相關其實我們對於這個收容人不管是在監獄或是看守所整個環境的改善我知道你們逐步在做有5所包括監獄跟看守所有的是擴建有的是興建但是總體來說下一頁"},{"start":4168.591,"end":4189.583,"text":"兩公約我們簽署的相關對於受刑人的人道處理尊重其天賦人格尊嚴之處喻等等兩公約這個是過去馬英九政府簽署我們認為要跟上國際所以回歸兩公約的規範下一頁"},{"start":4192.864,"end":4207.802,"text":"我就問您 矯正單位的收容情況我們從2016 17開始推動一人一床開始編列預算來提升提高收容我這裡的數據我就直接"},{"start":4210.064,"end":4215.186,"text":"來詢問合定收容的人數是60552實際收容是58889位看似沒有超收是真的嗎部長數字會說話"},{"start":4227.993,"end":4251.632,"text":"這是總數嗎總數是沒有超收啦齁但是個別的監所這個是收容是不一樣所以我們要勇敢面對問題解決問題我想這是一個老問題我要藉由今天的質詢還有後續我們審查總預算的時候好好來把關嚴格檢視下一頁我就以地區來分我的辦公室這段時間花了非常多的時間就全台灣的矯正機關每一所每一處"},{"start":4253.713,"end":4269.991,"text":"去瞭解去調查大台北桃竹苗地區15個收容矯正機關當中有10所是超收的平均超收都是兩成多三成多第一名就是臺北看守所他超收率是39.93%就是四成區別下一個"},{"start":4275.629,"end":4284.493,"text":"中張頭地區8所當中6所超收,它的平均超收最高的是南投看守所,超收是28.9"},{"start":4287.051,"end":4310.009,"text":"其餘大概加起來也都是10多%的超收率喔下一頁雲嘉南9所中有3所超收超收最高的是臺南看守所達到17.44%下一頁高屏地區7所矯正機關當中5所超收超收率最高的是高雄第二監獄17.5%下一頁"},{"start":4313.712,"end":4339.603,"text":"移花東10所矯正機關3所超收李島當然收容人數比較少是唯一一個沒有超收的區域我以區域別來做這樣子的分析這些資訊部長都有掌握嘛對不對我大概的分析是正確的吧好下一頁如果以所有的項目別我就以超收間數來計算"},{"start":4341.804,"end":4363.696,"text":"整體臺灣的矯正機關53%超收超收前五名我列在最右邊的表格第一名是臺北看守所第二名桃園監獄第三南投看守所第四新竹看守所第五苗栗看守所而總體來說看守所的超收比監獄更嚴重"},{"start":4366.678,"end":4389.865,"text":"而女性的女子監獄或是女子看守所她的人權待遇是更差的因為她都是百分之百超收的請把這些數據我希望今天的質詢之後你們可以提供完整的進一步資訊跟檢視的計畫跟給本席我們在討論預算的時候我們好好來找出方法來解決它下一頁"},{"start":4390.905,"end":4412.403,"text":"那我以你們開始推動的一人一床推動到現在還是有五成沒有達標當中就是看守所的進度最糟部長這些問題下一頁怎麼解決需要預算嘛需要預算也需要有計畫"},{"start":4413.944,"end":4427.199,"text":"這個是因為監所的一個一個聽設的一個部署我們現在是在積極的辦理來擴增建築那這邊我們也是預算這部分能夠能夠能夠能夠省順利"},{"start":4428.379,"end":4443.297,"text":"那這部分跟委員報告我們那個也是在努力那其實是我們現在的一個一人一船已經達到八成了有到八成嗎八成三了最新的數據那給我update最新的數據好嗎好那我們再提供最新的數據"},{"start":4443.677,"end":4471.01,"text":"好我時間要到了我先跟您卸題一下我認為制度的修正是需要的剛剛講的是執行它有難度預算是不是足夠空間是不是擴建興建都還需要再大力的來規劃但是就規定來講法務部頒布的各監獄收容受刑人的這個基準表2001年規定的它對於每一個收容人的居住空間法定"},{"start":4471.81,"end":4486.555,"text":"是0.7平你知道這個數字嗎是如果比歐洲理事會他們是多人房單人房都有不同的配置都是我們的好幾倍"},{"start":4487.395,"end":4487.695,"text":"最後一頁"},{"start":4514.31,"end":4520.058,"text":"前夜這邊是我也整理出來的您剛講我們這幾年投入了"},{"start":4521.552,"end":4545.448,"text":"經費去進行監獄的興建或擴建目前完工啟用的有臺北監獄宜蘭監獄但是這兩個完工擴建的他還是超收換言之你已經花了錢沒有改到位他還是面臨超收這是當初規劃的問題呢還是在收容的部分沒有辦法去做一個管理"},{"start":4548.337,"end":4571.916,"text":"雲林第二監獄已經完工啟用了他一樣也是非常滿的他增加了1360個收容名額那我們看還有兩個新興計畫是八德外醫監跟彰化看守所當中五處要改善矯正機關的人道的這個空間改善只有一所是看守所就是彰化看守所"},{"start":4572.887,"end":4587.234,"text":"那你看巴德跟彰化目前還在執行中總的來看這五個裡面即便完工了他還是超收然後北部我剛剛給你看各區的分佈圖北區的"},{"start":4590.14,"end":4605.228,"text":"超收狀況是最嚴重可是你整個擴建政策沒有因地制宜換言之需要去解決的那些最急的最不人道的那些區域你反而沒有啟動擴建的計畫我時間到了後續再討論預算的時候我希望針對這些矯正機關擴建新建的計畫你們能夠在審議預算的時候清楚的來跟國會來報告這樣好嗎"},{"start":4616.554,"end":4623.279,"text":"總預算再過15分鐘的協商希望能夠順利 全民都在看 一起加油 謝謝部長謝謝委員 謝謝吳委員 謝謝鄭部長接下來有請沈委員發會質詢"},{"start":4658.625,"end":4679.575,"text":"主席我們是不是請部長有請鄭部長委員早部長早我想今天這個本席大概很仔細的看了我們這個法務部的書面的業務報告就大概兩個問題來跟這個部長來請教"},{"start":4684.062,"end":4703.913,"text":"第一個就是有關我們在106年9月的司改國事會議裡面那時候有決議那時候的司改國事會議的一個決議就是應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會當然有很多理由最主要是這個"},{"start":4705.454,"end":4715.808,"text":"強化司法發現真實之能力減少冤議這是當時我們四改國事會議的正式結論從106年到現在今年民國113年"},{"start":4724.26,"end":4732.385,"text":"這個過程裡面我們這個當時司改會所所大家所做成的決議認為應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會這樣子的一個結論經過這麼多年了齁我們現在在你們的這個業務報告裡面看到齁這個國家級的司法科學"},{"start":4746.428,"end":4764.006,"text":"委員會現在經過多年的研討跟這個研究你們的研議之後現在變成要設立在以現在的這個法醫研究所的改制做這個國家司法科學研究院"},{"start":4765.726,"end":4791.226,"text":"對不對部長現在是不是這個方向是朝這個方向來努力目前在研究所在規劃進行中我知道現在我有整理這個整個變化的過程如何一個司改國事會議的結論從一個國家級的國家級的司法科學委員會到現在變成法務部這個所屬法務部所屬的一個"},{"start":4793.209,"end":4811.687,"text":"國家司法科學研究院的一個司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程在106年施改國事會議提出這個結論之後我看我們法務部在107年108年那時候就開始研議舉辦了多次的這個這個可行性跟這個籌備會議那時候一開始還叫籌備會議是朝這個國家級的的這個司法科學委員會的這個這個方向來籌備"},{"start":4819.485,"end":4836.57,"text":"但是這樣子從107年之後經過4年到110年之後我們開始由法醫研究所來開始研議法醫研究所的改制這把整個國家級把它降到我們法務部所屬的這個法醫研究所的改制"},{"start":4837.403,"end":4857.892,"text":"那到這個110這個是110年喔又經過一年之後法院研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長到112年我們法務部就把他報到行政院了就變成把原本司改國事會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關最後的研議的結果是法務部"},{"start":4858.993,"end":4879.863,"text":"下屬由法域研究院來改制的一個這個能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折一直到我知道現在你們在112年報行政院把這個組織草案把這個組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改修改之後在在今年的"},{"start":4881.038,"end":4907.192,"text":"的8月才沒多久之前8月你們又已經修改後的草案送行政院了對不對是這部分這個比較詳細的一個轉折我是不是可以請那個法醫研究所侯所長來跟委員來做一個這個法醫研究所的他們他們也很用心的來說就法醫研究所如何改制讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面他能夠去擴大到這個相關領域但是"},{"start":4907.972,"end":4929.022,"text":"我為什麼認為不是由法醫研究所來回答因為這個是政策選擇這個不是他們的法醫研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用而是說我們的這個司改國事委員會很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關到現在變成法務部下屬的那這個"},{"start":4930.294,"end":4955.277,"text":"我想這個還是最後還是一個政策的選擇而不是法醫研究所他們的研究啦他們的研究整本我都看完了啦研究的相當的詳細但是畢竟他就是他法醫研究所他不可能說研究的出來結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位這個是不可能的他是他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下如何讓法醫研究所去擴充他的職能讓他能夠"},{"start":4957.721,"end":4983.409,"text":"稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的這個這個司法科技只是這個方向而已所以還是政策還是我們部長這邊要來清楚談這個我們現在國家的這個司法科學那時候為什麼司改國是會會做這樣的結論我們現在這是各個機關大家各個不同的這個司法科學的單位"},{"start":4985.1,"end":5010.89,"text":"分散在各個機關包括我們這個法務部下面的法醫研究所我們調查局裡面的監視科學處警政署自己刑事警察局裡面有有這個刑事警察局的監視中心國防部有國防部的監視中心海洋委員會有海洋委員會的監視中心這個都各個單位所做出來的監視它並沒有一個國家級的一個認證並沒有一個國家級的認證這是那時候為什麼"},{"start":5014.111,"end":5029.945,"text":"為什麼司改國是會議認為說我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級同籌各個這個司法科學單位的一個機構啊但是你們最後的結果你們現在所做出來的結果就是還是這些單位都仍然存在你們自己還是一個這些單位其中的一個單位"},{"start":5031.856,"end":5053.502,"text":"這個跟原本的這個司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠我再用美國的例子美國他們設置了一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC他們把它分成整個司法科學分成七大領域我們這七大領域裡面我看我們這個七大領域現在分散在各個單位"},{"start":5054.562,"end":5082.949,"text":"我們有關生物的部分﹚法醫研究所﹚刑事警察局﹚調查局還有六都的這些刑事監視中心我們有關物理及形態分析分散在刑事警察局﹚六都的刑事監視中心﹚海巡署﹚還有國防部我們的現場勘查在刑事警察局﹚六都刑事監視中心﹚國防部回物跡證在調查局﹚在刑事警察局﹚法醫學在法醫研究所"},{"start":5084.313,"end":5102.923,"text":"數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部這七大領域我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構這樣子部長這樣子我們怎麼樣用這個法醫研究所的改制來取代這個獨立性的"},{"start":5105.439,"end":5131.772,"text":"獨立性的這個司法委員會這個部長能不能說明這邊我也希望有建立一個國家級的就是在外界是在行政院的這個一個外界然後把剛剛委員提到的散落在各個機關的這些的但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊經過這麼多年106年到現在113年跟委員報告就是本來就是有嚴厲就是設在行政院但是因為行政院他的委員會他那個已經"},{"start":5133.356,"end":5133.757,"text":"市長要補充嗎?"},{"start":5143.22,"end":5170.89,"text":"我看你一直愈來愈遇事跟委員報告其實這個是一個政策上的選擇在行政院當時在討論的時候到底是要一階段來達成這個目標還是分階段二階段來達成目標所以在政策上的選擇上行政院決定用二階段來達成這個目標第一階段就是我們現在法務部所提出來的版本先設在法務部的一個委員會接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的這一個但你們設在法務部之下"},{"start":5172.219,"end":5178.841,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期"},{"start":5200.652,"end":5221.405,"text":"學青政務組變成生物認證中心,就把組改成中心,增加一個綜合規劃中心,跟新設一個司法科學研究教育中心,大概就這樣子,沒有改變啊?沒有,這個委員會的組成,即使未來是法務部的三級機關,它還是由一個委員會來,審議委員會獨立存在"},{"start":5223.286,"end":5231.89,"text":"這個我現在就可以討論這個審議委員會了齁你們把這個審議委員會你所謂獨立存在並不是獨立存在於這個國家架構沒有錯但是它是獨立運作它是在這個國家科學委員會"},{"start":5238.693,"end":5244.556,"text":"國家科學院的院長下面他的成績還在這個國家科學院院長下面把原本應該獨立於國家獨立的機關拉到法務部下面的研究這個研究院的下面"},{"start":5255.576,"end":5279.929,"text":"這個要如何這個要他他他所扮演職能他要怎麼樣具有公信力去做這個有關實驗室啊人員資格的認證有關這個司法科學教育司法科學政策全部都由他負責啊來跟我們報告像我們現在獨評審議委員會他也在法務部底下但是他的所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士來擔任獨立的審議委員會來審議他的獨立性客觀性也不容挑戰"},{"start":5280.549,"end":5295.261,"text":"所以沒有做未來制度設計上你不能這樣講啦你不能說啊因為我們找的人都很公正所以他就是會是獨立機關這種東西一個國家體制的設計當然有他的道理為什麼他要是獨立機關為什麼他現在在法務部下面的研究院研究院下面的委員會"},{"start":5296.022,"end":5310.355,"text":"那成績差那麼多國家級的研究院的確是個目標但是我們現在剛有跟委員報告政策上我們先用二階段來實施第一階段先設在法務部我沒有看到二階段從106年到113年我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下"},{"start":5321.328,"end":5346.34,"text":"我沒有看到所謂第二階段在哪裡啊當然是我們設在我們法務部底下之後未來評估是不是設在行政院未來評估從106年一直評估到現在113年你如果說世改國資會議是去年開的你現在在說還在未來要評估我還相信你你現在已經106年延誼到113年最後提出來的草案你說啊這個是二階段裡面的一個階段這個我看"},{"start":5347.472,"end":5347.812,"text":"接下來請羅委員至強質詢"},{"start":5384.559,"end":5391.124,"text":"法務部跟廉政署可以說是政府的法律守門人也是政風跟廉潔的守門人嘛 對不對"},{"start":5411.368,"end":5412.149,"text":"主席"},{"start":5428.9,"end":5447.919,"text":"我們的政府在推動2025非核家園為了推動這個目標所以全速的推動綠能可是當我們在發展綠能的時候經濟部他有一個擔憂他怕台灣變成外商套利的這個對象所以在比方說一些風場的開發案上"},{"start":5449.821,"end":5465.157,"text":"他要求開發商一旦接了這個封廠的開發案事故要遵守規定不可以超過股權的50%說你後來接到政府的封廠你接下來事故不可以超過50%那如果你超過"},{"start":5466.158,"end":5487.491,"text":"他就是甚至可以重罰甚至會跟經濟部跟能源局簽訂的離岸風電開發契約會自動失效你覺得我們今天政府設一個所謂的發起人號開發商這個得到政府的這個所謂的風場開發的許可之後不能夠事故到50%以下你覺得這個設規定合理嗎"},{"start":5490.592,"end":5490.612,"text":"經濟部長"},{"start":5509.249,"end":5529.808,"text":"就是我用西施來標結果最後把這個權利賣給東施沒錯吧因為他如果今天我今天是以羅志強身份來標案對不對結果到最後標到案子之後呢結果就把這個標案的權利讓給張三你覺得政府可以允許這種事情嗎"},{"start":5531.141,"end":5553.775,"text":"可不可以部長你應該看過很多政府標案的問題吧對不對署長你也有問署長好了你覺得這樣好嗎我們會請我們的政風注意這個狀況我告訴你不好啦所以經濟部這個規定是合理的問題就來了我想請教您你知道我們在2017年有一家公司叫達德"},{"start":5555.509,"end":5561.353,"text":"他就是獲得我們經濟部號來許可建制允能風力發電廠"},{"start":5563.035,"end":5563.696,"text":"我請問一下署長這個有什麼問題啊"},{"start":5592.745,"end":5618.055,"text":"那我們對這個案件的部分就是說我會請我們政風再瞭解一下詳細的部分非常好非常好這是你回答我待會要問的問題經濟部原來說不可以事故到50%以下這家公司很厲害欸一路就事故到從100到0而且中間都是誰核准的你知道嗎都誰核准的這誰核准的事故是誰來核准的經濟部啊"},{"start":5621.171,"end":5639.543,"text":"經濟部自己設了50%的原則結果讓達德一路四股四道變成是零那我想這中間到底有什麼問題您總知道像這風場動輒利益就上百億吧是很大的因為政府給的短購價格很高嘛這第一個問題我們經濟部長昨天答應過我囉"},{"start":5642.225,"end":5652.27,"text":"他說這個問題為什麼出現這個問題有沒有涉及土利的問題有沒有涉及一些政風的問題他要移交給政風跟檢調我請問部長你有收到了嗎我不會收到這些個案的那個檢舉的話那個會到檢察官嗎來請問廉政署呢你會得到這個訊息嗎目前沒有"},{"start":5666.516,"end":5692.488,"text":"如果接到請你好好地去了解好嗎第二個問題更大了經濟部說不能到50%以下結果一路的準但經濟部也是中間也突然良心發現他中間有一天當達德從48要再去調整要去試骨試到25的時候經濟部也受不了了他說你這樣子不對啊"},{"start":5693.499,"end":5708.363,"text":"你如果這樣做我跟你講我現在直接告訴你你在你拿到電業執照錢你不准再去變更你的股權如果你變更股權我就要罰你了就重罰前面講重罰罰第一個19.2億的這個懲罰性違約金罰第二個更重"},{"start":5714.965,"end":5725.797,"text":"因為我剛剛講 短購價格比我們一般的那個電力成本要高政府是給一個算特許的利益所以政府本來給予允能風場每度電視要用5.8元來買結果經濟部在這個 裡面就會議當中說 如果你再動你違約的話"},{"start":5733.985,"end":5756.268,"text":"我就取消你這給你的短購的這個利益本來5.8塊錢跟你買每度電我改成2.13元跟你買每度電中間差價3.67元然後呢算起來因為他每年可以發22.4億度電5年下來你知道可以總共如果是按迴避成本處罰要處罰多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":5757.555,"end":5765.419,"text":"數學有點複雜3.67乘以5乘以22.4億411億元第一個是發19.2億元第二是處罰迴避成本將近400億元你知道最後我們經濟部發多少嗎?發3.5億元那我想請問這麼重大的所謂的違反當時經濟部原則的一個做法"},{"start":5787.533,"end":5800.449,"text":"那經濟部本來的裁罰在白紙黑字的那個會議記錄上都說你再變動股權我就要祭出這個處罰了結果我最後達得變成0經濟部最後罰3.5億該罰不罰算不算圖利的一種請問署長"},{"start":5809.155,"end":5836.129,"text":"該罰不罰也是圖利的一種部長最近我們的檢察官辦圖利辦得很辛苦啦對不對也很努力在辦圖利這件事情是經濟部長答應我啦他說要移送到檢察機關移送政風我真的這邊拜託我們的法務部拜託我們檢察官甚至廉政署"},{"start":5837.13,"end":5843.839,"text":"不用等經濟部移送部長雖然很有誠意要移送你們可不可以主動來辦一下聯政署"},{"start":5845.182,"end":5867.758,"text":"可以齁 答應了對不對拜託幫我們好好查清楚政府治理到底出了什麼問題為什麼經濟部明明講不可以事故50%以下結果這家公司可以一路從100趴趴趴趴趴到最後變成0那經濟部中間都已經說你如果再動我要罰你了結果到最後高高舉起400億輕輕放下3.5億"},{"start":5871.122,"end":5888.479,"text":"這中間這麼大的一個所謂的變化那是中間有沒有土地的問題這些都拜託我們這個部長跟署長好好瞭解一下好不好我們來瞭解下一個問題我想請教部長為什麼要有掙扎不公開的設計"},{"start":5892.774,"end":5906.763,"text":"為什麼要偵查不公開我那天跟你聊天的時候我有一個主張你有聽到了對不對我說我們行事訴訟法不要規定偵查不公開啦乾脆改成偵查大公開你贊不贊成直接再行訴法修偵查大公開你贊不贊成你贊不贊成我們還是要落實那個對啊你反對我也反對我是開玩笑的啊專業協會委員就知道我要問什麼"},{"start":5919.673,"end":5946.754,"text":"我在虧你啦沒錯吧請問我們現在偵查不公開這個規定跟偵查大公開到底差別在哪裡我看不懂阿我看不出來阿我隨便舉個例子齁2019年到2023年齁偵查不公開案件檢討數7255件平均一年1450件部長你知道今年上半年檢查機關齁所謂列為檢討案件有多少件嗎今年上半年喔"},{"start":5948.558,"end":5953.165,"text":"檢討的就檢討391件今年上半年齁總共列入要檢討是2035件"},{"start":5956.445,"end":5961.25,"text":"新聞上到處都是偵查公開的訊息阿"},{"start":5979.272,"end":6003.179,"text":"我跟部長說雖然時間不夠啦那我待會後希望您再針對這部分再告訴我你到底解決辦法是什麼但是我要特別強調一件事情我跟部長你也交流你們也覺得你們冤枉嘛不一定是檢察官嘛對不對我相信我們的辦案團隊可是跟部長跟你講我舉個例子我舉很快就講了你講那個論點已經跟我講300遍大概有了"},{"start":6004.275,"end":6032.002,"text":"我也沒說我也沒證據因為我不是檢察官我沒辦案的那個工具我也不知道是不是檢察官洩漏可是我舉個例子今天偵查犯罪是檢察官的職責吧是不是他偵查主題對不對是吧沒錯吧你這個需要任務5秒不需要啦今天我如果跟你講說哇靠不得了我們這個今年上半年有2000多件竊盜案啊"},{"start":6033.806,"end":6048.23,"text":"然後部長說這不是檢察官偷的你覺得這個交代的過去嗎2000多件竊竊案算不算是犯罪案件然後你跟我講你一個都沒抓到是因為這不是檢察官幹的你可以這樣講嗎我告訴你這個比喻非常貼近我今天直接跟你我就問你嘛來來來我跟問部長"},{"start":6060.216,"end":6085.238,"text":"今天偵查不公開 是不是鐵針針的犯罪事實 天天在我們的報紙電視上上演這個媒體這些有報導的 這些報導的源頭在哪裡 這個不能夠說是不是從那個 不是欸 這個媒體報導的不是真實的這些 我要跟部長說 你要這麼違反這個所謂的我們大家能夠看到的眼見為憑的東西 我也佩服你"},{"start":6086.363,"end":6092.068,"text":"今天就這麼多的洩密案在你眼前然後你最後跟我講一句說這不是檢察官洩的就當沒事了"},{"start":6093.174,"end":6117.854,"text":"犯罪偵查我就請問嘛 那麼多泄密案在前面 你們有沒有去偵辦嘛 有沒有約談了誰 有啦 柯文哲案有啦 但是只有柯文哲案嗎 只有那位記者而已嗎好啦 我要主席都站起來 我也不為難主席啦 拜託齁不是啊 我要拜託您啦 真的 你自己列的新聞就那麼多 你辦出來績效是如何 難怪大家對偵查不公開不滿意 謝謝"},{"start":6119.808,"end":6121.369,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長 署長接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢請政部長委員早"},{"start":6149.13,"end":6161.417,"text":"不讓早我想首先我來針對一個時事題來就教一下你的看法是怎麼樣我今天看早上的一個質詢裡面大家幾乎在細節裡面"},{"start":6163.273,"end":6187.245,"text":"那針對我看昨天媒體大家有看到了美國戰略跟國際問題研究中心發布關於這個中國反分裂國家法這個明年20週年那他們可能就是說他們要去修法去修法以後為以後使用武力統一台灣提供一個合法性我不曉得站在法務部你的立場裡面你的看法裡面這個到底我們是應該去修改國內法"},{"start":6193.234,"end":6193.494,"text":"的確是反這個"},{"start":6218.548,"end":6234.037,"text":"這個反分類國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣我們我國人民的一些的這些的恐懼當然會那我想委員關心這問題這是非常重要的一個國安的一個問題"},{"start":6237.139,"end":6258.917,"text":"這部分我們是贊成如果說有制定新法的必要的話當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的觀念這部分詳細的是不是可以請調查局長來做一個答案可以啊我反而倒會認為說你至少法務部針對這一些你會認為說那是老共強得要死我們也不用去擬他"},{"start":6259.818,"end":6276.384,"text":"你看昨天外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候日本的記者就問他嘛他就直接講這個是中國的內政任何國家都不能干涉他的講法就非常強悍啦要比強悍他就叫做後懼小朋友我以為部長你會講得很強你知道嗎至少像面對這種問題不能說法務部都沒有關係阿好像就會覺得說沒辦法"},{"start":6286.562,"end":6287.464,"text":"法務部這題幾乎都是缺席的我認為這不對"},{"start":6302.14,"end":6324.685,"text":"我認為不對,你至少有很多智庫嘛,法務部裡面有很多專家嘛,既就法務部你還可以單槓一個,你適度的一個發言,這可以很有安定民心的一個作用啊,這不只是總統的成績,這也不是只有這個整個行政院的成績啊,你小小的一個中國的外交部的一個發言人,然後你就出來給你指三道四啦。"},{"start":6325.526,"end":6326.087,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6342.685,"end":6343.105,"text":"這個聲音都太微弱"},{"start":6360.476,"end":6360.496,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":6380.594,"end":6393.764,"text":"昨天剛好我也在外交國安委員會備詢那這部分我有跟沈伯陽委員也有做過討論那他也有提到說其實我們應該要在外犯罪的部分應該要有一個修法的一個表達"},{"start":6398.735,"end":6416.276,"text":"你的態度是什麼?我們當然是非常的不同意啊,對啊,非常不同意中國這樣子的一個做法你不能跟人家說不同意啊,你不能跟人家說不同意啊,我認為這個在國會殿堂上這樣打都不及格啦然後你說不同意,你不同意那民眾說啊?法務部在司法委員裡面說不同意捏,這樣就好了?"},{"start":6419.045,"end":6420.186,"text":"我是覺得這樣太過於微弱了 請回來我要來今天正入"},{"start":6438.86,"end":6439.06,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6459.509,"end":6485.7,"text":"這樣的一個討論有助於我們整個實質修法的一個建議在我們憲法第78條裡面去講司法院本來就是解釋憲法跟統一解釋法律跟命令所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決不要去談拘束力的當然一定會有拘束力所以我要請教部長的就是說就變成說我們大家在討論討論就是說如何針對整個程序讓它更完備"},{"start":6487.847,"end":6490.889,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會"},{"start":6508.862,"end":6532.87,"text":"14歲以下的那些你根本你也沒辦法自己安排那甚至於啊說你到如果說我們憲法的我們刑法的一個規定如果說14歲以上不到18歲他認為他的罪責能力就比較低甚至於80歲以上或者精神障礙甚至於陰陽或心智缺陷辨識能力在行為時他降低的時候這些都不得"},{"start":6533.67,"end":6549.58,"text":"去處以極刑所以都要去減輕那至法律效果來講目前是減輕可是法律實務上我相信也沒有人會認為說未滿18歲或者說這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人去把他處以極刑就是死刑但是這次修法來看的話我不曉得針對憲判制這樣第8號提出來第7點部長你的看法未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看"},{"start":6560,"end":6575.651,"text":"這部分齁我們有提出那個根據這個憲法憲判意旨我們有就刑法63條做一個提出的一個修正的一個草案因為這個也是跟的也是配合那個憲法現在刑法19條的那當然啦那當然啦所以你現在就是說那個刑法63條那你從哪裡放進去"},{"start":6582.188,"end":6589.433,"text":"本來我一直在想說你那個19條第二項後段本來是得檢清其刑嘛那些得你做一個修改我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為說這個就是在廢死了我們也不是什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的一個犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑那像這一種很明顯的在罪責"},{"start":6607.765,"end":6621.222,"text":"他根本就不足以來在他行為階段的時候去辨識他在做這件事情的時候,或者判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣,他去做這樣一個犯罪行為的時候,你說要被處罰到那裡,那就是我們民間常常說的,就是笑的在他旁邊啦,就是笑的在那邊"},{"start":6626.71,"end":6627.651,"text":"那我另外要來就教"},{"start":6653.673,"end":6674.284,"text":"這個就是一個大問題了我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的一個進度跟建議我一直都認為立法院裡面當然在修法必須要去回應民意但是我們也必須要去謹慎牽一法而動全身在高度專業跟民意之間你必須要去做一個平衡"},{"start":6674.904,"end":6696.05,"text":"我相信部長這邊應該也去看到了你們的業務報告要推動國家司法科學研究院在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查以目前來看的話你這個組織法跟現行法務部法醫研究所你們到底有什麼具體的差別嗎我是不希望他只是換湯不換藥你的方向"},{"start":6704.887,"end":6722.772,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那基本上就是說差距完全是不一樣的怎麼說呢我們如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話我們會負責國家司法科學的一個政策的擬定還有這個"},{"start":6725.029,"end":6727.831,"text":"我比較擔心的是當事人的防禦權的問題我們都很清楚"},{"start":6749.127,"end":6771.352,"text":"在一個審判庭上齁所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據除了那些例外以外全部都是傳聞喔那你這個如果升格以後提升上來以後他變成是一個權威的一個鑑定機構那你現在鑑定人除非雙方同意當事人同意或者那另外兩項例外不用倒庭"},{"start":6774.07,"end":6799.827,"text":"我現在很擔心的是說你把它當成是一個我們修法完以後把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院那你這個鑑定出來機關的名義出去那又變成形成傳聞法則的一個例外這樣到時候如果說你的這個鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話"},{"start":6801.51,"end":6805.534,"text":"司法研究院作出的一個鑑定報告是機關出去喔阿人不用倒庭這樣哪通這樣通嗎報委沒有這個問題阿為什麼沒有這個問題"},{"start":6823.798,"end":6838.19,"text":"刑事訴訟法偵查審判的時候還是要由檢察官法官來指揮檢察官法官如果認為有必要還是可以傳鑑定人到場來作證我們上次在修去年在修刑事訴訟法這個地方就出現漏洞"},{"start":6841.285,"end":6857.592,"text":"我們當初是在講說你那個例外是在講當事人民事同意還有依法執掌類型像譬如說內政部刑事警察局法務部調查局衛部司官署還是說主管機關認定的醫院實驗室團體符合這一些都不用出庭"},{"start":6860.009,"end":6860.81,"text":"會不會有妨礙到當事人在訴訟上攻防有舉他的權益的問題"},{"start":6875.583,"end":6895.551,"text":"法委沒有這個問題,原則上有政績能力,但是必要的時候,當事人、被告或律師還是可以來請求傳喚你講的那個是法院,如果案子我在審,當然我可以把鑑定人"},{"start":6896.551,"end":6922.8,"text":"請到法院上來接受兩照或者是訴訟辯護人的他的一個他之間的一個結論嘛那當然可以那如果他不要呢他就直接跟你這樣講咧來來市長跟我們報告齁即使在機關鑑定的狀況下我們現行法規範還是可以請求他到院來說明跟這個相關鑑定的要到院說明他並沒有排除鑑定的到院說明可是因為我們有創設例外啊因為訴訟法現在有"},{"start":6924.401,"end":6940.641,"text":"即使機關鑑定他現在多了一個他必須要拒明跟拒絕吧而且必須要到法院來說明他有規定我現在比較擔心的就是說對於不利益的一個鑑定喔那我們刑事訴訟裡面這樣的一個規定裡面那法官他也有可能我相信權威啊"},{"start":6941.93,"end":6952.232,"text":"他沒有免除這個鑑定的道庭說明的義務未來還是要說明所以我是比較擔心不會造成這種狀況好謝謝謝謝莊委員謝謝部長次長跟接下來待會在鍾嘉斌委員質詢完畢我們休息10分鐘接下來有請吳委員中線質詢"},{"start":6973.251,"end":6976.015,"text":"有請鄭部長委員好部長早"},{"start":6988.947,"end":7010.962,"text":"今天主要還是就你們這次業務報告的有關憲法法庭死刑判決的核心解釋這部分去討論那我想說我們今天就不要聚焦在很混亂的地方而聚焦在精神心智缺陷或是精神障礙不得判處死刑就我們都很清楚這一次大法官其實"},{"start":7012.484,"end":7036.681,"text":"這次大法官他的判決其實我個人認為這是一個完全宿愛裁判的一個憲判那他對於這個精神障礙的部分他從行為時、審判時跟執行時他設了三個關卡那這個都是以前沒有的概念那因為以前我們只知道刑法19條是以行為時為判斷基礎那這次大法官他直接又下了一大堆"},{"start":7038.387,"end":7063.846,"text":"根本我覺得以前就從來沒想過的東西在裡面那這個處處其實很簡單嘛這就是實質廢死啦這就實質廢死這不用在那邊跟我們在那邊玩文字遊戲說這不叫實質廢死然後講了一大堆五四三的那個都在騙國人那部長你知不知道這次大法官有點名三個死刑犯就他們審理的時候有無金帳有無自我辯護的能力不得判死這個部長知道吧"},{"start":7065.112,"end":7068.176,"text":"現行法律有規定審判時不得判死嗎?"},{"start":7086.072,"end":7086.773,"text":"當初殺了他的媽媽、婆婆、先生的林于如"},{"start":7119.221,"end":7132.434,"text":"大法官認為他審判的時候有精神障礙導致自我辨識能力不足不能判死刑而且兩年內要修法那這個東西他的律師說智能不足這個部長你知道是怎麼回事嗎"},{"start":7134.958,"end":7143.915,"text":"這個是一個個案的話我不清楚他這個這個個案的智能不足的好那我跟你講齁這個他所謂個案的智能不足就是他在某一次"},{"start":7145.637,"end":7167.973,"text":"審理的時候法官給他做智力測驗,測定他只有57那這個理由來當作不能判死刑的理由我這覺得是蠻離譜的啦因為你要知道一個智商110的人他要演成自己是57很容易那你57要演成110是很難那如果這樣子的話這種智能鑑定就可以當作是一個理由"},{"start":7168.954,"end":7175.344,"text":"我只要做智力測驗我每一題都寫錯就好啦那我智力可能只剩下30啊所以我我真的覺得這個是"},{"start":7177.591,"end":7205.021,"text":"大法官他的這些想法齁我也只能說看為觀止啦那大法官其實就是為這37個死刑犯在那邊秀喵喵要盡量的保護他們那像李玉如這個案子他在三省也有做延遲辯論所以他的程序完備那程序完備的時候大法官就幫他找一個理由說他曾經有救省能力有問題智力只有57然後這樣子來去做這樣子的對法務部的要求齁那我"},{"start":7206.581,"end":7225.151,"text":"我個人完全不認同,我也希望說部長能夠稍微了解一下這個案子因為你們自己業務報告這個案件現在這個死刑犯的這些,確定死刑犯的這些現在是一憲判一職,現在就是要有總長來審核"},{"start":7228.238,"end":7230.039,"text":"一個人在行為時他懂得用藥去處理他自己的先生"},{"start":7244.944,"end":7267.498,"text":"那那個藥是什麼藥要去哪裡買我都不知道了結果他竟然知道他也知道要還賭債知道要詐領保險金知道要預謀殺人知道希望檢察官趕快給他的証明書這些他都清清楚楚他甚至比很多代書都還要厲害了比很多律師都還要懂了結果大家認為說他救省能力有問題這個就是我要點出來現在實務上面"},{"start":7269.287,"end":7298.165,"text":"會遇到的一個問題就是當事人只要在庭上裝瘋賣傻在那邊填寫錯誤的智力測驗的答案那今天他就可以逃過死刑那這是我對於現在大法官的認定出來我的見解啦那當然我也是看看總長以後會怎麼做決策我們會去等著看嘛就大家來看看總長會怎麼做決定啦所以只以智力測驗就可以認定有無精神障礙心智缺陷我真的是完全的不認同"},{"start":7299.807,"end":7329.006,"text":"那這個根本就是加上了以前法律19條以外根本就沒有這樣的規範嘛那加這個規範的目的是什麼我也不懂啦所以大法官現在變成是繼承法官的太上皇像林玉如的案子總共有19位法官審過結果就幾個大法官他最後做出來的先判決推翻了他們以前的死刑確定判決這我看到的整個程序走到今天就是這個樣子所以呢是不是大法官自己在違憲"},{"start":7330.287,"end":7330.848,"text":"我自己的感覺是這樣"},{"start":7350.781,"end":7370.163,"text":"我後來發現很多民眾把大法官跟法官混在一起了其實法官是法官大法官是大法官大法官是執政者任命的根本跟一般普通法院的法官不一樣很多人民搞錯了很多政治人物就故意在誤導人民這個方向那我的感覺是這樣今天執政者要這些大法官出來去幹盡他們想要幹的壞事"},{"start":7371.445,"end":7372.606,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7394.707,"end":7406.66,"text":"不得執行實行這個變成你們都要去跟著這套法官這樣走嘛你們也沒有其他的辦法對不對然後我在 沒關係部長"},{"start":7408.544,"end":7435.187,"text":"而且這次大法官的憲判制他對於修復式的正義 隻字未提他只在幫死刑犯逃脫死刑但是對於被害人我們這麼多年司法署上面一直講求的修復式正義大法官卻隻字未提他從來沒有去管過這一塊所以我真的不懂這大法官他到底心裡想的是什麼是為這些王八蛋政客在服務嗎部長我上次問過你"},{"start":7437.23,"end":7460.28,"text":"非常上述成功之後回到普通法院審理回到普通法院審理之後就有無罪推定所以我們就把它當作這一群人都是無罪的人去做無罪推定那我也再三的跟你說除非除非有法官敢違法的下羈押的裁定不然這些人就要放出去欸你101條跟101條刑訴101條跟101條之一哪一些東西可以羈押清清楚楚"},{"start":7466.263,"end":7490.655,"text":"所以法官要怎麼樣做違法的裁定呢?譬如說林玉如好了,智商57他出去要怎麼篡政?智商57有篡政的能力嗎?有逃亡的能力嗎?所以到底要怎麼樣認定一個智商57的人他出去有篡政逃亡之餘那請問一下法官要如何能夠違法的裁定機啊?那法官只要不裁定機啊,這37個人就有可能會出去啊"},{"start":7491.255,"end":7518.676,"text":"甚至我們上次有講到了 羈押3個月 延押12個月延押12個月期滿了只有15個月根本就來不及審判完畢嘛那如果你還要再送精神鑑定或這些廢死團體幫他申請一次兩次的精神鑑定那就超過15個月啦那這些人是不是要放出來所以我在這邊要跟所有的人講這些人就是有可能其中一部分會被放出來會回歸到社會那部裡面有什麼做法"},{"start":7521.189,"end":7550.595,"text":"那個先判第8號的判決意旨有提醒有提醒這個撤銷的這個最高法院會撤銷判決他那個要做注意羈押的問題重新的計算這個羈押的期間部長不要講這些廢話這個委員關心的是不是會放的問題我想這個個案我對案情是不是有沒有101條或101條之一的情形這個我沒辦法去做一個判斷但是我們檢查該做的我們會要求我們就會促請法官去"},{"start":7551.475,"end":7554.777,"text":"我相信法官有他的智慧會去審酌這個被告應該羈押的理由"},{"start":7567.583,"end":7591.019,"text":"不是因為部長不要繞圈子嘛我們都很內行刑訴訟法這個這些人就可能不被押或超過羈押的期限而被放出來回歸到社會只要有一個人回歸到社會部長這個對目前的執政黨已經對您都是重大的傷害我在這邊只能這樣子跟你說反正你跟我繞圈子我也聽不到我問了兩個禮拜我還是聽不到我要的答案那就算了齁"},{"start":7591.88,"end":7615.056,"text":"然後我再來跟你們報告一件事情從鐵路殺警案一審無罪二審有罪整個精神鑑定是天翻地覆看起來就是精神鑑定跟DNA的鑑定不一樣DNA鑑定準確率非常高但精神鑑定常常翻來覆去那會不會變成是很多團體把你精神鑑定到反正有一天要出到他的答案就可以所以"},{"start":7615.794,"end":7616.074,"text":"好最後齁"},{"start":7638.332,"end":7658.06,"text":"我認為啦就是因為我們對於羈押的要件我們都很清楚嘛所以這37個死刑犯最後回到普通法院無罪推定之後確實很有可能法官根本無法羈押因為與法不合嘛那與法不合的情況下這37個很快就放出來或是超過羈押的期間就放出來"},{"start":7658.72,"end":7668.135,"text":"所以一定要詳實的告訴這個社會部長你上一次在巡打的時候謝謝你很有勇氣的告訴我們說確實沒有把握他們能夠繼續壓著"},{"start":7670.798,"end":7698.552,"text":"謝謝你至少你上次是有勇氣啦因為這個時機啊這是屬於法對這個是事實而不是上次吳思堯那樣子胡說八道那邊政客亂帶風向我想我們檢察會盡量做我們檢察官職責的權利去做我們職責的事情謝謝謝謝部長我想說委員你也是當過檢察我們能夠做我們會全力說我想窮勢一列力量不讓這些人走入市場部長為什麼我對這次那麼生氣是因為我真的很重視社會治安因為我覺得這是所有人都希望的我們都不希望有一個殺人犯"},{"start":7699.568,"end":7725.179,"text":"回到社會然後如果你住同一個社區你坐電梯會跟他一起坐你心裡會不會害怕我今天在想的只是這個東西所以我是跟部長報告一件事情在我心中齁我覺得政客齁為的是下一次選舉政治家為的是下一代的幸福然後我很謝謝部長上次有勇氣把話說出來這些人確實有可能將來會回歸到社會"},{"start":7726.854,"end":7747.791,"text":"我是希望說我覺得所有的官員們跟大法官都不要都不要像這些法盲的政客一樣在那邊在那邊裝傻在那邊講出與法不合的事實這是我的期待所以我上次也說在場其實有非常多法官假官的學長們我如果今天我在法律的部分我有講錯都歡迎來批評我"},{"start":7749.412,"end":7769.108,"text":"但是我今天就是要在這邊要告訴大家這37個死刑犯真的有部分人很快的會回歸到社會這個我不贊成這種的說法我對法官要有信心我想這個是三審定讞的三審定讞的而且憲判一十八號也提醒這個法官要注意其他的問題而且他給人要重新計算部長"},{"start":7769.568,"end":7770.028,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7785.114,"end":7806.623,"text":"他對於羈押的要件這些人不符合啊所以當我們對法官有信心他一把下裁定就是不能押嘛那你也只能這樣講嘛我沒有懲辦這個個案所以我不能講但是我想我們會要求檢察官去窮一切的力量去建立法官羈押"},{"start":7807.463,"end":7811.667,"text":"部長你講的沒錯就是你能做的以及現在檢察官能做所以這個問題的話你講的都沒錯部長你講的完全正確"},{"start":7823.378,"end":7846.597,"text":"確實你可以請檢察官 積極的請法官裁定羈押但我這邊要告訴部長的是 法官依法 如果真的依法處理的話我如果是這些3、7個人的律師 我就跟你打 他就不符合羈押的要件嘛這個問題喔 我想說由司法院陳辦法官來回答這個問題 這個會比較比我還...好 部長 OK 你這樣的回答我接受 但是我就是要告訴你 他們就是可能不押 就這麼簡單"},{"start":7848.157,"end":7863.476,"text":"他就是可能不押否則你跟我講他們符合什麼逃亡之餘符合什麼篡政之餘如果這個都沒有那也沒有那個關了20幾年也沒有反復實施之餘請問一下你可以創設新的法律來叫法官裁定羈押嗎"},{"start":7864.477,"end":7867.059,"text":"這不是智慧的問題這是法律的問題我國是法治國家部長檢察官們是聰明人我是笨蛋嗎我沒有辦法看懂法律嗎你今天講了什麼話"},{"start":7885.39,"end":7906.306,"text":"我不懂你這什麼意思嘛我剛已經說了你講的話我能夠認同就是你可以請檢察官積極的去向法官審理羈押但是我在這裡也告訴你依據我國現行刑事訴訟法的規定法官要押的理由在哪裡我真的還是想不到我問了超過20個我的同學的法官他們也說依照現行法就是沒有辦法押"},{"start":7908.22,"end":7908.68,"text":"我可以接受你這句話"},{"start":7928.738,"end":7930.14,"text":"致以法官那部份我想法官有他的智慧"},{"start":7964.602,"end":7990.661,"text":"好,下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言主席、財政委員、先進列席政務集團所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們的鄭部長還有我兩司的孟司長好,孟司長稍微好等一下"},{"start":7992.52,"end":8020.448,"text":"好部長好師長好來部長那個我昨天齁司法法制委員會安排考察你知道吧部長我們去看屏東地院和屏東地檢那麼我們是希望未來能夠留住司法人才為屏東鄉親服務不管是法官還是檢察官我們要考量他們的居住需求而且未來的司法園區能夠考量到便民可能像包括行政執行署他們這些相關的機構都能納進來請問你知不知這樣的做法"},{"start":8022.626,"end":8046.9,"text":"委員對我們非常的感謝委員的對我們的支持好謝謝那後續請你要指派專人我希望包括跟行政執行署還有國產署還有司法院都會邀請他們那當然最重要的就是要敦請我們屏東縣政府一起來共同參與希望部長來用力推動好不好謝謝來我們來看一下來請問部長有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":8047.84,"end":8061.735,"text":"外國人在外國犯了罪逃到台灣要如何論罪?這個新聞說有個西班牙裔的他義大利色詐騙來到台灣之後呢身份就接入了後來您知道台灣要怎麼處理嗎?你有知道這個新聞嗎?這個有這樣的一個新聞那他怎麼處理?"},{"start":8067.583,"end":8093.935,"text":"這個移民署移民署有說什麼移民署有在限期出境要驅逐出境就是有10月10號有通知他到岸說是要在台灣把他抓起來審理還是引渡回學去西班牙還是義大利還是要驅逐出境現在是要求出境那台灣跟西班牙義大利國際刑事組織有沒有互助條約我們怎麼樣掌握這些國際通緝犯在台的動向這個我是請市長的回答"},{"start":8094.343,"end":8094.363,"text":"市長簡單講"},{"start":8112.449,"end":8113.169,"text":"台灣人在台灣涉案之後跑到日本去"},{"start":8140.788,"end":8148.402,"text":"怎麼辦?我們有一個2023年有台日有簽訂司法合作備忘錄可以視訊詢問還是可以引渡回台?"},{"start":8150.134,"end":8178.081,"text":"有關台日的這個合作備忘錄是在法律的一些相關的資料交換上面有這樣的一個所以跟涉案人的部分沒有關聯還不達到來我們往下看現在就規定啦聽說有一個涉及到目前這個檢聯正在調查中的案子的關係人呢可能是證人可能要傳喚他已經跑到日本去了那麼結果呢這個人在日本日本政府可以怎麼處理他他可以一直躲在日本嗎"},{"start":8180.843,"end":8203.91,"text":"先不要問司長了,部長你覺得咧?但是媒體說除非遭驅逐出境,因為台日沒有簽司法附註,沒有辦法遣返,是不是這樣子?是這樣子嗎?所以只要這個人沒有違反日本的法律就可以繼續停留在日本,我們無奈他何,對不對?是不是這樣子?在日本沒有違法,日本就不會驅逐他出境嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":8205.489,"end":8231.457,"text":"其實過往這種例子我們的警方都會設法透過比如說國際刑警組織或者是跟日本的這個警方透過警方的這個合作關係然後希望他們能夠怎麼樣他在日本沒有犯法日本警方奈他何其實我們很多在第三國犯罪的這些台灣的在台灣犯罪他在日本沒有犯罪你怎麼到日本警方把他送出來這個部分"},{"start":8235.236,"end":8257.157,"text":"部長知道原因了齁往下看所以其實這個是互助啦相對的台灣人在外國犯罪我們可不可以把他引渡回國我們也看到一些我們當然是反對毒品的販運但是的確我們看到一些個案有些台灣的年輕人在泰國在東南亞這些國家是對毒品管制很嚴格的他幫人家帶登機箱被抓到了關在泰國的監獄裡面"},{"start":8258.53,"end":8268.473,"text":"你覺得這樣的臺灣的人法務部會希望將國人引渡回臺來臺灣接受這個論罪判刑甚至接受我們的剿制嗎那我想這個引渡也就是回國來接受是嗎那這些泰國有沒有沒有嘛越南有沒有"},{"start":8281.857,"end":8298.712,"text":"委員我們跟泰國跟越南都沒有簽署任何引渡的條約都沒有也沒有任何的互助嗎所以如果國人因為在其他國家像泰國或越南不慎犯了當地的重罪他大概就注定要在那邊關一輩子很可能是這樣嗎是不是這樣"},{"start":8299.738,"end":8324.772,"text":"您現在是說如果他在那邊當地犯罪被判刑被入監復刑的那個是涉及到受刑人移交的問題是那怎麼移交我們有沒有也是有司法互助的範圍嗎我們有受刑人移交法有受刑人移交部長那就是我今天要問的往下我們的結論小潔請是不是積極推動我們國兩司的國際的司法互助防止嫌犯出國也能夠順利不管是引渡還是移交回國內來處刑來執行可不可以"},{"start":8328.032,"end":8352.048,"text":"願不願意自己來處理我們會自己來處理好來我們往下看來部長最近有一些社會新聞未照車牌很多人被害你覺得為什麼什麼樣的案件會未照車牌舉個例子以前看警匪騙歹徒作案之前搶銀行都是先偷髒車偷了車髒車做完案燒掉對不對是不是這樣子為什麼要用髒車犯罪"},{"start":8353.269,"end":8353.409,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8373.68,"end":8374.541,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8396.789,"end":8420.384,"text":"我有去報私嘛是不是這樣子我有去報私那基本上大概作案就跟我無關了嘛而且我報私之後警方會幫忙查這個是髒車歹徒拿去作案可能容易被抓到所以往下看現在這個偽造車牌呢就是因為車主不知道沒有人去報案車子也沒有掛也沒有報私所以呢他繼續用這個車輛的去作案製造的斷點是不是這樣是"},{"start":8421.445,"end":8447.076,"text":"那他這段時間的交通回歸都算誰的算原車主的那車主怎麼辦吃罰單然後呢要去監理站要去撤銷要去舉證然後呢還要換車牌部長你知道嗎換車牌要不要錢要這又跑這些行政作業要不要時間要然後呢這個民眾無辜的民眾呢被人家調查他舉證說那個車子不是我的要不要花工夫要那部長怎麼辦"},{"start":8449.395,"end":8463.164,"text":"你知道衛照車牌有多重嗎?有多重的罪嗎?新法212它是一年以下局域跟九千的罰金一年以下所以就知道了吧偷車拿髒車去翻案跟衛照車牌哪個罪比較重?"},{"start":8465.874,"end":8491.899,"text":"當然是偷車去追比較重啊衛照車牌什麼但是這是民國17年修正通過的當時說考量到什麼基於謀生意識便利這是民國17年的法律啊民國113年欸衛照車牌算不算衛照公文書特種文書那為什麼衛照特種文書是重罪啊那為什麼只有判一年以下因為刑法212條嘛"},{"start":8493.971,"end":8497.987,"text":"他把他排除在衛照特種文書之外部長要不要修法"},{"start":8498.992,"end":8525.873,"text":"這部分我們已經納入那個行修小組的會議那個在11月份下個月就會開會你們怎麼方向修法方向是把它排除視同偽造文書還是不是偽造文書但是加重其刑他有兩種的一個方式立法的方式一種是在直接在212來修法因為一種就是比照附照條例附集法再倒交條例新增特別的那要罰多少要怎麼處罰怎麼量刑"},{"start":8528.257,"end":8546.458,"text":"那這部分還在研修小組再做一個討論那不會是一年以下吧偷車要多少年?竊盜罪幾年?竊盜罪幾年?竊盜罪是五年以下五年以下嘛所以我就不要去偷張車了嘛我未照車牌就好了嘛一年以下嘛方向是多少?加重到幾年?市長請說"},{"start":8548.547,"end":8576.597,"text":"報告委員這個212的議題本來在這個15號就是前天的行修小組要討論對但因為我們討論的方向有兩種一個就是212把它廢除掉並到就直接用公文書的刑度來處罰另外一種方向就212加重刑度的一個方式那因為15號來不及討論會下個月就排進去我們行修小組好下個月部長本席有提案啦齁部長那你覺得"},{"start":8577.639,"end":8604.266,"text":"要加重處刑吧?要不要?這個應該可以要調整心情但是我不只要求這個還要怎樣?還要補償什麼?受害人受害人不是犯罪受害人喔被偽造車牌車主他花的這些時間這些困擾要不要補償他?怎麼補償?偽造車牌的人能夠補償這個車牌的原車主嗎?你們有沒有一個犯罪被害人的一個基金?請問一下我的車牌被人家偽造了我花那麼多功夫"},{"start":8605.185,"end":8605.745,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8633.676,"end":8650.492,"text":"這個案子很簡單嘛法官看一看你要民事訴訟啊那就賠多少啊大概有個數字啊你們難道要逼著我們法院跟這個車牌的車主被害人去走這個途徑嗎有沒有辦法在我們的法制上予以一個通案的設定讓他很簡易的就可以得到補償部長有沒有可能考慮一下"},{"start":8655.714,"end":8667.322,"text":"我們可以研議可以研議好我們希望偽造車牌這幾年基礎越演越烈都跟詐騙有關以前偷車拿張車去犯案都是暴力犯罪"},{"start":8668.476,"end":8669.277,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8691.277,"end":8713.749,"text":"那現在這麼多如果不及時的修法遏止會有越來越多不只是詐騙案還有很多車牌被偽造的車主他有很大的損失是不是就是說我們考量一下要補償這些受害人好不好演繹一下是可以嗎好我們先演繹好謝謝好那我們就現在依照先前的宣告休息10分鐘"},{"start":9323.203,"end":9326.366,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 現在有請翁委員小林質詢有請鄭部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":9347.538,"end":9356.015,"text":"首先請教部長,您上星期的國慶日,您有去參加總統府前的國慶大會嗎?有。您當時坐在哪?"},{"start":9357.027,"end":9362.969,"text":"我想請問一下您當天與貪汙犯陳水扁同台您的內心感受是如何?"},{"start":9381.548,"end":9408.854,"text":"這份我是沒有注意到你沒有注意到?陳水扁當天是參加國慶大典但是我沒有去看他坐在哪裡所以您不知道他會要參加國慶是有這個訊息說會參加國慶所以這個事情你有同意嗎?所以他事前有向矯正署臺中監獄有申請核准可以參加國慶大會嗎?"},{"start":9410.654,"end":9419.993,"text":"這部分是台中建立在做一個處理那矯正署不知道嗎那我是不是請矯正署來待會回答今天周署長有來是不是"},{"start":9425.578,"end":9444.575,"text":"他每個月都會派人過去探視那針對國慶這個陳水扁他本身在9月24號的時候台中間有特別叮嚀他有這個相關活動務必要事先來報告"},{"start":9446.036,"end":9459.224,"text":"那在9號那時候還沒有那台中建議在9號10月9號的時候有主動掌握了那個陳水扁要出席我們10月10號的國慶大典"},{"start":9461.545,"end":9476.032,"text":"那所以那個我們臺中監獄也有派專人到場說證來那即初步的了解因為這是慶籌會國慶籌備委員會的一個邀請卡而且總統府也有專人打電話給陳水扁先生要這個慶祝國家的幸福好簡單來說就是因為呢上面的這個總統說要邀陳水扁"},{"start":9491.88,"end":9501.548,"text":"臺中監獄雖然前一天就掌握了資訊可是沒有辦法還只能夠陪同去蒐證然後也沒有說是直接告訴陳水扁你不能夠參加國慶大會我必須要講這件事情"},{"start":9516.052,"end":9544.077,"text":"在本席的這個眼裡我認為他就是一個司法的這個最大的一個恥辱當天陳水扁坐在這個VVIP的這個貴賓席上面後面是司法院院長然後部長您也是在這個另外可能不是正中間的主席台旁邊的貴賓席您怎麼可能會不知道陳水扁會參加國慶大典"},{"start":9545.779,"end":9561.025,"text":"一個貪汙犯跟我們現在的司法機關的最重要的兩位首長同台很狠的將司法尊嚴踩在腳下這不是司法最大的挫敗跟恥辱嗎我必須說"},{"start":9567.145,"end":9568.866,"text":"報告委員可以容我回答嗎?"},{"start":9582.325,"end":9605.474,"text":"請說你委員報告這次陳水扁出席國慶大典他是由慶酬會來邀請的而且是經過慶酬會有慶酬會的角色但是你們可以不同意是不是過去你們這個有同意過嗎好我們看一下下一頁基本上對於陳水扁"},{"start":9609.435,"end":9635.721,"text":"他已經保外就醫將近10年現在已經延長了39次了我不知道臺中監獄這10年來對於陳水扁的表現是視若無睹嗎他可以主持廣播節目他可以代理他的女兒去當訴訟的律師然後呢參加各式各樣的活動然後甚至還參加國慶大典"},{"start":9638.168,"end":9665.935,"text":"在陳水扁的眼裡,他會認為說你們會不同意嗎?你們過去都沒有修正嗎?有,報告委員,我們臺中建議會依照我們保外意志的審核基準跟管理辦法來做相關的修正所以呢,修正之後的結果呢?陳水扁的這些行為符合你們自己所定的這個審核基準的辦法嗎?"},{"start":9667.233,"end":9685.086,"text":"他是日常生活所必須嗎?參加國慶大典是他日常生活所必須嗎?擔任他的女兒的訴訟代理人是主持廣播節目是跟他生活有關嗎?是,臺中建議會參考高雄義大跟高雄長庚醫院的遺囑"},{"start":9687.108,"end":9705.81,"text":"包括他的出遊黃遊去山他是醫主上面認為對他的治療是有正面意義的好所以呢治療到現在10年了確實是頗有成效他是完全恢復正常這樣的情況之下為什麼他可以不重返回到監獄裡面去服刑"},{"start":9707.389,"end":9731.449,"text":"全國人民都在看都在看你法務部怎麼做報告委員陳水扁的身心狀況他還是有必要再做職能治療的他不是說已經我一直說他未來出獄之後他還要這個工作嗎事實證明他的職能恢復的很好啊還幫他的女兒去當訴訟律師啊"},{"start":9733.641,"end":9755.2,"text":"主長您今天說這句話您都不覺得慚愧嗎?你曉得現在保外就醫的受刑人在保外就醫的期間他的死亡率有多高?你知道嗎?我們常常看到新聞保外就醫的受刑人可能短短一兩個月的時間可能就往生了"},{"start":9757.094,"end":9758.715,"text":"報告委員我們委員應該有收到我們的數據我們累積今年總共有499位在外面保外遺址那今年累積到9月份有129人死了"},{"start":9781.567,"end":9803.744,"text":"我希望矯正署、法務部這裡你們可以把保外就醫的這個受刑人他們出獄的治療的期間還有什麼時候回去以及他的死亡是出獄他的保外就醫在外面多久的時間之內他就是就往生你們要把這些數據全部講得清清楚楚"},{"start":9804.994,"end":9824.827,"text":"本席昨天研究了這張表我看了很久我後來今天重新計算我告訴你大概就是像是人權促進會講的啦出去一半以上五六成的這個保衛就醫的受刑人都會往生而且事實上本來就是他如果不是很嚴重的疾病你戒護就醫就可以了啊"},{"start":9828.769,"end":9838.913,"text":"講證書臺中監獄乃至於這個政部長我真的希望你們能夠把司法的公平正義隨時要放在心裡放在你們的腦海裡啊今天為什麼陳水扁的這個事情會讓可能慶仇會也忘記了也淡忘了全社會的人都淡忘了他是一個貪污犯他被判刑20年"},{"start":9855.117,"end":9873.2,"text":"為什麼到現在法院可以停審這麼久而我們的檢察官也沒有主動的向法院提起說要繼續審判這個停止事件 停審的事件那個臺北地檢署有多次的發函"},{"start":9874.605,"end":9880.408,"text":"盾請法院要開始麻煩請把這個數據給我至少以後我不會誤會說地檢署失職這是很嚴重的問題我們刑法裡面其實都有處罰濫權不起訴或不處罰或不執行處罰的罪那這個相關的數據我就在跟我們在書面今天講到這個事情其實我真的認為全台灣的人民都在看"},{"start":9904.485,"end":9930.753,"text":"我已經不止一次的從我擔任立法委員以來我就一直很在意這個事情為什麼 如果說是認為陳水扁他之前當過總統那現在都民進黨執政已經前面8年接下來未來4年那念在過去的情分上總統就給他特赦啊 我也沒有意見啊但是在沒有特赦的情況之下為什麼可以容許一個"},{"start":9933.391,"end":9940.236,"text":"這個保外就醫長達10年的這個受刑人貪污犯：可以參加各式各樣的活動慶典說不過去了大法官他這個做了死刑合憲的有條件合憲設了那麼多的門檻這已經引起了這個民情的重憤我相信陳水扁的事情同樣也是"},{"start":9957.714,"end":9970.197,"text":"你知道網絡上面怎麼講嗎10月10號是我們的國慶日沒有錯全部的人都很開心都要慶祝這個國慶日但同時也是司法的這個司法支持日啊很難想像這樣的一個這麼明顯的一個受刑人貪污犯竟然可以後面做的事司法院院長還有法務部部長情何以堪"},{"start":9988.578,"end":10013.351,"text":"好我本來還有準備另外一題不過沒關係我就等到下一次我希望法務部還有矯正署你們可以呢將這個保外就醫的受刑人就是如同你們是表格上面所寫的再多增加幾個類這個這個項目他保外就醫的每平均大家的時間是多少然後多少的時間之內就會往生"},{"start":10015.01,"end":10035.016,"text":"對很多的數據資料都要公開要讓民眾瞭解你們到底做了些什麼每一次他的核准為什麼他可以核准他都可以在外面活動這些資訊難道不應該公開嗎麻煩你們一個月之內給我一份報告好謝謝好那麼請部長會後提供好謝謝我們歐委員謝謝部長謝謝署長接下來請紅委員孟凱諮詢"},{"start":10046.728,"end":10067.753,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請部長有請正部長剛剛是角政署署長是不是一起好不好周署長來我本來沒有打算要問這題啦但是因為剛剛翁小連委員這樣子詢問那署長特別回復說也有建議說這個受刑人陳水扁說不要出席這個國慶大典是不是"},{"start":10068.834,"end":10070.617,"text":"陳水扁受刑人每天主持節目"},{"start":10082.028,"end":10107.833,"text":"我之前在司法法制委員會的時候我就已經有質詢過了那我甚至那個時候我講是說我們連民進黨籍的立法委員高雄、台南想要拚2026市長的也全部都輪番上陣去上他的一個政論節目去上他的專訪所以他從他四步不受訪變成是他現在主動訪問別人了有沒有 台中監獄這邊有沒有曾經提過說要求他不能做這樣的行為"},{"start":10108.633,"end":10129.246,"text":"報告委員 這個部分台中建議都有掌握陳薛扁有事先報告 要邀請哪位所以他事先報告就可以通過這跟事部跟之前事部的關係是完全背道而馳你當時的事部有沒有一組的一個佐證"},{"start":10130.026,"end":10130.647,"text":"所以你現在收證的結果怎麼樣?"},{"start":10151.085,"end":10165.765,"text":"現在就是讓他每一個要選舉的人都上他的專訪然後暢所欲言然後網路上都可以看到這是醫學奇蹟了已經台灣司法的奇蹟醫學的奇蹟"},{"start":10168.41,"end":10168.99,"text":"法務部很重要"},{"start":10198.486,"end":10223.188,"text":"法務部很重要那其中本席有看到上一次我也提到就是說針對這個毒品氾濫的部分尤其是毒價也造成我們新北的這個所長的一個不幸往生的狀況那其中我們現在看到是說喪失毒品確實已經有在8月份的時候先列為三級毒品了那但是我們要問兩個部分一個"},{"start":10224.369,"end":10247.865,"text":"新興毒品掌握的狀況到底我們有沒有超前部署因為這個過去這個所謂的上司毒品啊已經快一年的時間沒有去做一個納管所以說現在才緊急八月份便列為三級毒品那從列毒品拖了一年大家講是說這是不是有帶多一個狀況那另外"},{"start":10249.284,"end":10251.907,"text":"這麼容易取得的這樣新興毒品僅列3級你覺得夠嗎?"},{"start":10255.247,"end":10255.887,"text":"請要說明好不好"},{"start":10286.468,"end":10303.536,"text":"關於新興毒品,其實法務部有一套監測機制,它設在一個檢測平台,它是向未來監測,所以如果有一些新興毒品還沒有列入我們毒品來管制的話,我們透過監測機制達到一定程度的話,就會回到我們的毒品審議委會"},{"start":10304.036,"end":10322.073,"text":"本席有看到而過去本席也知道有這樣的一個機制但現在我想請教全世界每年都會有這個所謂的毒品報告聯合國出的目前2024年聯合國所出全世界的毒品有多少跟委員報告這個NPS就是全世界的毒品報告事實上也是我們的監測機制的範圍"},{"start":10323.815,"end":10324.936,"text":"司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":10342.506,"end":10367.502,"text":"跟委員報告最新列的我們都列入了除非他是在上次毒品委會之後又再重新列的要不然目前為止新新的我們都把它列了來回來部長部長本期為什麼會提到這樣子因為我特別也去查了我們法務部的相關的新聞在2020年的時候有針對新新毒品的部分一口氣認列了299項毒品達到我們現在管制的638項毒品那"},{"start":10371.545,"end":10388.752,"text":"目前有可能因為這是2020年的資料所以有可能2020到現在2024有陸續增加但當時我們的資料查到是臺灣總共列管了600多項的一個毒品可是全世界的這個聯合國的這個報告他其實是高達1000將近200項"},{"start":10391.093,"end":10414.388,"text":"所以換言之還是一半當然不是說因為有一些毒品它有可能是只有在某些國家流行或氾濫可是我現在提醒的就是說因為這個上濕毒品的狀態就是一樣嘛就之前我們沒有把它列管進去而造成說它可能有部分的一個空窗期那當然我們已經在8月的時候已經把它列為三級毒品了可是本席要講的是"},{"start":10415.588,"end":10442.457,"text":"這樣子的一個機制有沒有能夠蓋精進或調整的空間尤其我們看到之前的新聞報導是有講是說法醫研究院研究所購買標準品的預算只有區區300萬我不知道現在有沒有增加那如果說只是幾百萬如果說只是因為研究所沒有錢沒有多餘的預算去購買毒品導致於說我們沒有對照組實驗組比較組而造成我們沒有辦法列管的話"},{"start":10444.418,"end":10447.081,"text":"幾百萬的預算部分是不是應該要來做加強?"},{"start":10449.065,"end":10455.489,"text":"邀請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜委員不在邀請羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才不在邀請林思明委員、林思明、林思明委員不在邀請鄭振前委員、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在"},{"start":10477.122,"end":10502.33,"text":"有請楊瓊英委員,楊瓊英委員不在有請陳冠廷委員,陳冠廷委員不在有請傅坤祺委員,傅坤祺委員不在有請賴世寶委員,賴世寶委員不在所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束委員諮詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":10505.578,"end":10514.19,"text":"委員謝榮介所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"date":"2024-10-17","影片長度":"04:24:22","end_time":"2024-10-17T12:56:00+08:00","type":"Full","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16181","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15862,"start_time":"2024-10-17T08:31:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d75bc8616f11b32873082885ce373dc7ac04c64b87e30630ae974a5ba33784f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:38 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邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況．並備質詢 宣讀完畢好 我們先來介紹在場的委員 Always on time 陳永康委員 好 謝謝那另外 在介紹官員之前 那本席先向委員會宣告"},{"start":1908.542,"end":1931.328,"text":"那因為禮拜四都有軍談所以我們今天國防部長的業務報告及列席備詢在中午以後那他詢網曆請假這個過去都有發生過那本席也詢網曆準價所以待會顧立雄部長他會報告之後盡量在這邊列席答詢我想應該我們本委員會的可以問完"},{"start":1932.108,"end":1948.237,"text":"到中午的時候就準駕到總統府參加專案會議以上先說明請假狀況那列席的官員由國防部長顧立雄那副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰上將長賜楊基隆權動署署長白潔榮"},{"start":1961.819,"end":1980.371,"text":"總督察長是總督察長張元勛政戰局局長陳玉玲軍備局局長林文祥主計局局長謝其賢軍醫局醫務管理處處長許玉瑞戰規司司長黃文啟"},{"start":1989.876,"end":2012.655,"text":"施規司司長鄧克雄法律司司長沈世偉整評司副司長趙建國你們司長請假嗎有請假假當我沒看到我沒有看到你們我沒有看到整評司司長的"},{"start":2014.704,"end":2018.886,"text":"國防採購事主任趙雅萍政務辦公室代理主任藍靜婷人事參謀次長是次長劉沛智情報參謀次長是次長謝日昇作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文新"},{"start":2046.138,"end":2059.666,"text":"後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩蓮訓練參謀次長是次長張俊志陸軍參謀長陳建義海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長王德陽"},{"start":2075.336,"end":2083.984,"text":"後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉縣指部參謀長呂正芳陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長劉清薰支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁"},{"start":2101.084,"end":2103.245,"text":"電展室執行長許益新國防大學教育長李承宗中科院院長李士強"},{"start":2129.515,"end":2135.947,"text":"現場有黃仁委員、羅美玲委員、陳永康委員我們剛才一速錄已經宣讀不知道在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2137.011,"end":2162.64,"text":"沒有的話我們一速確認那我再跟現場兩位委員補充報告因為你們剛才在路上那個禮拜四因為總統府都有軍談所以往例如果禮拜四排國防部部長在中午過後都會請假那本委員會也都會準所以今天顧立雄部長會在12點的時候請假赴專案會議那我們也予以準假那本委員會應該都問得到以上補充請假的說明"},{"start":2165.685,"end":2169.588,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況．並備質詢。我們現在請顧立雄部長上台報告"},{"start":2187.271,"end":2213.534,"text":"主席、各位委員先進,今天應邀致大院委員會實施業務報告首先對各位委員就各項國防施政的支持與指教表達很自感謝接續報告近期,重大國防施政,主項分數如後以掌握區域情勢及敵情威脅,當前國際安全情勢聚焦於中東緊張情勢、南海爭端及台海議題上"},{"start":2216.487,"end":2230.94,"text":"今年北約峰會發表聯合宣言,日本南韓、澳洲和紐西蘭首都納入宣言,顯示北約強化與印太安全連結,增強跨區域的安全合作。令司法安全電話也表達反對中國片面改變現狀的行動。"},{"start":2243.038,"end":2267.846,"text":"年底美國總統選舉將對全球區域安全及印太戰略情勢造成影響,本部將密切注意並實現應處。在敵情威脅方面,對台威脅模式、方式、模式區分、聯合戰備警詢等。太陽共軍持續於每月3至4次頻率執行聯合戰備警詢,加強對我軍事威脅。"},{"start":2273.24,"end":2285.036,"text":"今年2月份驚嚇水域事件後,中共海警不定時進入禁建式水域來騷擾藉今年的時機首次編組海警船一部"},{"start":2289.121,"end":2308.475,"text":"臺灣的周邊在執法後續研判將加強維權執法並結合法律戰、任職戰進行灰色地帶的洗澡中國航艦持續進行訓練第36次航訓與我西南去西太平洋海空運從事跨島鏈的海空聯訓令與海"},{"start":2311.997,"end":2333.076,"text":"南海及海南島附近海域從事第37次航訓,藉計劃性的聯合訓練展現其反介入區域聚集的實戰能力。研判中我將運用正規並非正規的手段,驗證攻台作戰與抗擊外境的能力。國軍持續保持高度警戒,掌握周邊共機艦動態,對共軍以越中線挑釁的行為妥適應處,捍衛國家主權。"},{"start":2341.653,"end":2349.107,"text":"國軍備戰役組,中共以複合式的手段持續對我從事灰色地帶洗澡,並運用聯合力艦軍演戰備警訊"},{"start":2351.892,"end":2374.898,"text":"等行動祈祖行託對臺動武的合法性,國軍持續注收當面共軍及台海周邊的情勢,並對漁業海峽中線之共機艦失竊派遣,空中兵力攔截,海巡艦艇並行監控,並實施廣播警告,以及提升陸基防空暗制的反艦飛彈帶射姿態,全面應處。"},{"start":2378.018,"end":2402.257,"text":"針對共軍無人機,習早國軍確診、鑑別、識別監控、告警通報、安全確認及防衛設計原則應處,並籌購各種反制裝備及系統,提升整體防禦能量,並掌握中國公務船舶的活動情質,與海巡署建立通報機制,適時增援兵力預應,應對中國的侵擾行動。"},{"start":2404.599,"end":2414.716,"text":"國軍藉由各項軍事演習模擬各種可能的作戰場景,增進應處正能力,作戰區地面戰備部隊海,實兵實裝方式,實施戰備徵詢。"},{"start":2417.825,"end":2434.181,"text":"國軍耿旭入力戰訓準備,同步調節相關處置規定,徹底各階段應對行動,以反制及應處中共新常態洗澡,捍衛國家安全。反制認知作戰,近期中共持續對我認知作戰,試圖多層面影響國人認知,削弱我國軍民士氣與團結。"},{"start":2442.25,"end":2463.657,"text":"以創造有力中共的資訊環境,面對中國認知作戰,國防部持續強化的多元反制作為,針對網路錯腳訊息,除立即查證並依並通報相關單位,共同執行網路溯源及印儲,並結合AI技術建置虛擬主播,可立即翻譯18國語言,快速印儲、重複"},{"start":2465.273,"end":2479.961,"text":"及增加國際傳播效能。近期多起疑似中共網軍冒充國軍官兵以網路散佈不實言論,均立即以國防部發言人的臉書成名,降低錯假訊息影響。為向國際傳達臺灣防衛覺醒,邀請在臺灣媒報導漢光"},{"start":2486.693,"end":2510.87,"text":"演習的操演實況,並主動揭露中國對我黑色地帶洗澡與軍事威懾,使國人及國際社會瞭解中共破壞區域和平的行為,並爭取國際社會對台支持。令本部與國防院學界合作自播教學影片,解析中國對我認知作戰手段,並擴大教育面,提供公務員在職教育、民防教育及各級學校"},{"start":2511.79,"end":2522.044,"text":"國防通識課程教學應用,並以持續強化媒體的識讀能力工作。憨光四少演習"},{"start":2523.208,"end":2547.915,"text":"今年演習區分高階幹部圖上兵棋推演、電腦輔助指揮所演習及實兵演練等三個階段,驗證區中心化運作、快速平站轉換、連站指揮機制均獲得重要成果,各作業區同時驗證運輸能量、完成重要軍品物資前推預置、分區囤儲作為,令驗證國軍"},{"start":2552.436,"end":2577.602,"text":"通電支系統的韌性,實施指管系統備援接替等科目執行實戰化演練。高階幹部土上兵棋推演於3月18至29日實施戰役及專程級推演,藉互動研討及時廣益,並於4月19至26日執行八天七夜電腦輔志指揮所演習,藉日夜連續狀況推演,驗證聯合作戰計劃的適切性。"},{"start":2581.483,"end":2602.402,"text":"實兵演練則於7月22日至26日以實兵實地實時方式執行,取消預演及展演性科目,遂行日夜聯繫及聯合作戰演練。令7月24日起因應凱米颱風清洗,各級演訓部隊迅速調整及時投入災害防救任務。"},{"start":2603.383,"end":2613.311,"text":"5.全民防衛動員,本部依《全民防衛動員準備法》等規定,召集各部位及地方政府,精進全民防衛動員機制,棄9月中旬供召開9次跨部會協調。"},{"start":2615.336,"end":2639.135,"text":"為有效提升地方政府佔災、搶救應變能力,今年民安10日演習以民生必需品、配售等為重點演練,令萬安市7日重點驗證民眾實際進入防空疏散病安處所及暫時在民生活救濟站開設演練,使民眾熟悉應變措施。"},{"start":2639.835,"end":2644.959,"text":"今年14天教召訓練規劃增訓起見900語言,同時增調民防協力等時數,並持續推廣後備軍人自願接受教召與自願參加步槍射擊訓練。"},{"start":2656.827,"end":2684.614,"text":"年度軍事人力動員同心三十四號演習,演練後備軍人報導部隊編程等並協同縣、警、消及民防團隊驗證全民防衛動員的物力動員的志強四十號演習,採全國分區同時方式執行,演練全民防衛動員,支援軍事作戰。6.義務役徵集及訓練成效,一年級義務役至今年1月25日開始徵集。"},{"start":2686.414,"end":2709.634,"text":"異難依陸武駐地訓練、基地訓練及聯合演訓等階段實施完整訓練,並藉由民防訓練習得確保家園安全正能力。陸武訓練為遊民轉軍重要階段,採循序、漸進方式,逐次加強新兵體能、戰鬥及射擊技能。年度期八月底,義務異難以完訓"},{"start":2711.656,"end":2724.881,"text":"依依依然以完訓的13梯次4532元依然噴花制部隊後持續講話編制武器射擊停人戰技等訓練使依然以疫情內習得新式武器操作要領經手個人職務專長"},{"start":2727.782,"end":2746.16,"text":"另於基地期末建設時,將跟隨部隊以戰術位置實施戰場經營、作戰計劃演練及各種狀況應酬,並與民防團隊共同執行防型傳遞等科目。一覽服役期間,完整接受駐地基地訓練後,將具備執行戰備任務能力,退伍後納入動員專長邊管,可廣除後備部隊量人。"},{"start":2752.706,"end":2776,"text":"7.成立國防創新小組,為適應現在戰場變化,效反美國引進民間承受科技做法。今年2月1日成立國防創新小組,並透過商情調查及公開徵集等方式了解國內外科技最新發展狀況,符合需求之方案,納入國軍建安程序進行籌貨。創新小組聚焦領域包括AI輔助"},{"start":2782.364,"end":2801.137,"text":"目標便是自主導航等領域,現階段將無人機直管、反制無人機系統及水下無人艦艇等需求列為優先項目,並以國科會等政府部門協調設立跨部位平台,藉定期會議整合國防軍事需求及民間產業能量。"},{"start":2803.604,"end":2828.558,"text":"另與嘉義亞創中心及國內外科技公司交流掌握科技發展的現況此外亦持續與美國航空創新單位及印太司令部建立常態交流機制及取美方作業模式及經驗選擇最佳方案提供國軍建案籌貨參考八新式武器籌貨面對中國"},{"start":2831.139,"end":2834.58,"text":"規劃將無人系統、人工智慧列入兵力整建重點。114年軍事投資預算"},{"start":2848.865,"end":2868.353,"text":"針對"},{"start":2868.567,"end":2893.683,"text":"國內無法自製且短期內可獲得並快速提升戰力之武器系統則循軍購途徑無籌貨目前執行中公開對美中大軍購案具有新型戰車等18案美方與本部密切合作致力改善軍售程序確保如期獲得各項武器裝備迄今具有遠程進入火力打擊系統等案"},{"start":2894.764,"end":2924.124,"text":"等案項提前獲狀此外,此外持續與美國安團隊綜合運用各式的安援援助手段以加速我完成接裝訓練、縮短行程戰力啟程、強化自我防衛能力9.國防自主藉由國科會的國防科技學研中心整合國內科研能量推動國防先進科技研究計劃比於8月底完成其中查核"},{"start":2925.084,"end":2951.51,"text":"本部持續投入國防科技基礎紮根掀起研究電機武器系統自主研發能量令美聯軍定期滾動檢討列管軍品清單公告品項作為廠商申請級別認證是標的截至9月中旬已合法145張合格證明書持續協助廠商申請級別評鑑以建構完整的國防產業供應鏈"},{"start":2952.97,"end":2955.851,"text":"海豐戰力提升計畫規劃111至115年籌建雄三飛彈等9型飛彈軍醫計畫執行,國際國造規劃產制新式高焦機66架,其10月中旬為止"},{"start":2971.136,"end":2989.443,"text":"10月上旬累計交機37架,國艦國造高效能艦艇第一批6艘於113年交軍服役,須按期程管制交艦,潛艦客規管制執行測試,新型救難艦預化下半年交艦。"},{"start":2992.102,"end":3011.447,"text":"令尋國內採購管道級為中科院產製無人機,今年度規劃獲得7型918架,目前進入正常,蓄意騎乘管制各型無人機結角,提升國軍部隊的戰力,亦促進國內民間無人機產業發展。十一第十減少"},{"start":3012.327,"end":3021.375,"text":"第10減少形式管理及訓練方式,為有效發揮組織功能,強化部隊戰力,在具有堅實的基礎上,虛心檢視組織結構,管理文化及訓練方式,實屬強化戰力必要的積極作為。"},{"start":3030.007,"end":3048.621,"text":"戰訓本戶及部隊實務管理需求、分就官兵休假還原回報、出國自由行旅遊、近戰格鬥及正部操點等訓練、實施休條,其目的在於提振官兵士氣、培養自主管理責任感及落實符合防衛作戰場景的實戰化訓練、減輕刑事管理"},{"start":3052.668,"end":3079.739,"text":"行政事務復合,增進工作效力,並秉促展演室的訓練而專注戰訓本務,以提升部隊戰力。此外,全體國兵堅守崗位,各級指揮機制及任務部隊軍人有效應處,相關應變指揮與留職規範已經詳細律定,為兼顧各級幹部隊家庭照顧,以利國軍人才長留久用,自6月份起取消政府主管不得同時離任並依。"},{"start":3081.96,"end":3098.351,"text":"這個突發狀況處置規定留旨11.114年國防預算編列概況為建構有韌性之國防戰力本部依施政重點及政府財政客尊臨機預算精神妥適編列預算114年度整體國防預算6470億元較113年度增加464億元其中年度預算4760億元"},{"start":3109.662,"end":3135.576,"text":"令特別預算及基金預算分別編列904億元及806億元,所獲預算之重點以建構不對稱作戰能力,強化防衛韌性及堅實後備戰力等要項,除優先挹注法定義務必要支出外,所以為此會著重裝備零附件及保修各式彈藥籌補,提供良好後勤支援,軍事投資者配合"},{"start":3137.831,"end":3166.833,"text":"則持續配合重要武器籌購分年編列預算,並納列潛艦國造後續艦等新政案,展現自我防衛決心因應嚴峻敵情威脅,國軍持續保持高度警戒,入力各項戰訓整備,並破壞各項重大國防政策,以強化整體防衛能力各項國防施政計畫及114年度預算編列,懇請各位委員先進能夠大力支持,並繼續給予指導謝謝大家"},{"start":3169.346,"end":3193.132,"text":"好謝謝部長部長請回我們現在開始進行詢答的部分本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘我們10點半委員會發言登記截止如果有任何臨時提案請在10點半以前提出11點左右我們會看詢答的狀況來進行處理首先我們請陳永康委員上台詢答"},{"start":3205.089,"end":3208.031,"text":"主席好有請顧部長來部長請另外也請陸海空軍參謀長山軍參謀長部長您早早陳委員早"},{"start":3225.629,"end":3253.486,"text":"由於近來國際情勢的動態變化再加上中共的軍演施壓我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力當然在您的領導下這個分層負責授權但是我們還是覺得我們共同還有努力的空間那麼因為談到國際情勢在您剛剛的報告裡面講了跟講的就跟美國那個布林肯講的是一樣的就是說朝鮮半島東海台海南海"},{"start":3254.346,"end":3256.248,"text":"台灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況"},{"start":3279.781,"end":3298.659,"text":"所以這個我們這個美方啊善意派來的JTT啊他的成員大部分是陸戰的經驗因此強調了以烏克蘭兩年多的這個經驗啊累積起來啊那麼強調的這個分散式的指管去中心化"},{"start":3299.864,"end":3326.979,"text":"去中心化分散式直轉在烏克蘭在這個北約跟美方提供的因為他這是部隊復原散佈很廣所以他的鏈路受限所以他是去中心化但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易海空軍的去中心化非常難請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡可以去中心化嗎你海上的攔截做制海比方講"},{"start":3329.88,"end":3351.779,"text":"將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭你有30公里、70公里甚至300公里射程你跟逾差飛彈的射程是相同請問去中心化以後如何使用所以去中心化它是一個手段是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷不完整分層負責各作戰區它有了解"},{"start":3352.62,"end":3377.89,"text":"去中心化是從頭到尾他不是目標所以你同時在指管系統的強化下強化他的韌性至於地面部隊分層負責那個去中心化是容易實現的各位看這張圖上啊幅員這麼大我們現在講的俄烏的東部戰區實際上在庫爾斯克只是在上右上角的那一小塊"},{"start":3380.404,"end":3384.809,"text":"沒有大進展那麼以台灣這個在東部在烏東烏南兩個台灣都進去了在這種情況下的質管"},{"start":3390.882,"end":3390.982,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":3411.571,"end":3428.434,"text":"這裡面有許多是real time information的sharing如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像去中心化以後那就是用簡單的圖了我現在請教陸軍參謀長你現在的UTM的圖啊90張你要把它改成數位化什麼時間可以完成"},{"start":3430.789,"end":3454.017,"text":"向委員報告這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求那因為這個製圖他從測繪他這個位照他都需要相當的時間那目前已經有一定的產製出來的成果這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作"},{"start":3456.361,"end":3481.212,"text":"我當然了解你那個限制因素了這個光不是401場的問題401場本身事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖那你要跟衛星同步校正現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的坐標圖我們空軍用的圖JNC ONC的圖UTM坐標圖是幾萬分之一啊"},{"start":3486.216,"end":3499.124,"text":"有大圖幅小圖幅依照作戰成績不同對你大圖是多少有兩萬五分一五萬分一對你的大圖是五萬分之一但是海圖呢"},{"start":3500.446,"end":3526.089,"text":"20萬分之一50萬分之一按照比例那航空圖呢這個50萬分之一百萬分之一甚至200萬分之一所以當我們要掌握大的格局區域安全情勢的時候你各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正WGS校正以後他是可以套點這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢"},{"start":3527.27,"end":3543.155,"text":"我們在場的同仁我們的專業背景不同工作經驗不同可是你沒有一個共同圖像提供一個完整的判斷就會產生下決策過程中間或是討論過程中間比較難得到一個完整的共識這個部分"},{"start":3544.275,"end":3565.232,"text":"我建議這個UTM的圖要加快因為這個國際情勢變化很快美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快如果圖資不能跟上你的準則叫範完全不能跟上所以同樣在這個情況下我們的國防大學的這個子參教育的圖集要同步更新"},{"start":3566.585,"end":3591.23,"text":"另外我是建議包括航圖像這個在國際航圖圖的本身現在都不是機密但圖上掛的資料是機密所以共同圖像的平台是可以政府內部甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平台那我下面可以顯示給您看用了共同圖像以後你的判斷如何會方便起來所以烏東戰場就兩個台灣沒有了"},{"start":3594.189,"end":3594.869,"text":"達到今天是977天了"},{"start":3620.731,"end":3647.567,"text":"明年就職完大概才來看條件怎麼談那這種情況下他的變化其實是不是每天大變化那因此在烏克蘭的作戰中間因為是Starlink全程support他跟我們未來的所謂的one web那國軍還希望進一步要跟他努力來定義他的清楚那下面我們這個圖各位看一下我們很快的走一下"},{"start":3648.952,"end":3674.661,"text":"這是把臺灣圖轉90度我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖用的是方法論臺灣如果暫時美國有三天的時間在你東岸可以控制宮古巴士掌握狀況他並沒有來幫你我們來面對挑戰國際航線這是中共發布的演習這個遼寧號航線的位置"},{"start":3677.461,"end":3700.735,"text":"掏碟前三次演習所以所有的狀況用圖像再掛上資料庫那國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖是示意圖我們了解當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像對於每一個層級開會尤其是國安層級能夠有一個更客觀的圖像"},{"start":3705.899,"end":3727.022,"text":"剛才講到的包括布林肯都講了朝鮮半島東海台海南海這個周遭的細部圖都要能夠比對套疊包括動態那我們關心的是什麼呢不只是動態的形式左邊的這幾個中間我相信我們都很多很努力在做但是有些地方也需要強化戰略預警騎乘多遠"},{"start":3729.131,"end":3736.676,"text":"聯演兵力規模多大聯演範圍涵蓋多遠演習期程可長可短演習步驟可快可慢軍警同步"},{"start":3738.361,"end":3764.858,"text":"維權施壓反應時間戰備提升反應作為快速整備共同圖像要全程掌握情質分享有盟合作國安戰略指導部會社會的韌性全程對應這裡面我一直到今天向大家強調的就是共同圖像提供長官一個客觀周延的一個平台判斷平台我們把圖持續套疊上去那這個是示意圖"},{"start":3766.158,"end":3789.083,"text":"我們可以用路途海圖航圖經過比照套疊產生不同的效果那可以看到更細的部位包括我的涵蓋徵收範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍這個裡面我用的是是概括的但是我這個方法告訴各位讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍哪些要透過跟友盟情之交換"},{"start":3790.283,"end":3806.294,"text":"所有的圖像都要校正套疊,這裡面的經緯度是全部比例,各位看過大圖小圖通通校正過的,這個時候就提供給長官一個比較宏觀客觀,很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷,包括朝鮮半島最近的緊張狀況。"},{"start":3808.523,"end":3824.174,"text":"中共執行立見演習,我們也這個方法論都論出來了。最後,因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議,這個我們會後把這個當作資料提供貴部做參考,因為時間剛剛到位,謝謝耐心,請部長做一個指導。"},{"start":3828.943,"end":3847.02,"text":"這個陳委員所指教的建立這個共同作戰圖像這個也是應該的那當然我們現行已經你也知道有一些共同作戰圖像的一個行程那現在您剛指教的就是說各軍種的這個部分那麼我們現在海軍跟空軍的部分已經有納入"},{"start":3847.78,"end":3870.436,"text":"路徑的部分我想我們會盡快的再加速來建設另外我想更重要的是一個指管的備援的韌性您剛剛也提到就是說去中心化它本身不是一個目的而是在我們一旦面臨的狀況的時候我們還能夠遂行的它依照它的任務來遂行它的依照它的任務的這個"},{"start":3872.117,"end":3872.938,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是羅美林委員"},{"start":3911.395,"end":3913.339,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長顧部長請是 羅委員好"},{"start":3923.177,"end":3949.616,"text":"部長早安昨天呢本期跟國安局呢探討了這個聯合力艦2024B的這個軍演我今天還是要跟部長再談一談這個10月14號聯合力艦2024這個軍演的這個部分那中國解放軍呢他是在14號的凌晨5點宣布要展開環台的軍演我想請問部長"},{"start":3952.511,"end":3974.868,"text":"這對我們來講是突發狀況嗎?我們世界有沒有接到任何的通知?我們世界曉得在這個時間點上會有這個軍演活動嗎?您是說這個情緒的預判是不是?情緒的預判我們確實有一些掌握那因為依照相關的這個他們的一個動這個"},{"start":3979.332,"end":3999.639,"text":"就是比如說遼寧號等等那還有他們的海警船等等的然後還有這些相關的軍艦他們的動態然後他們還有一些這個在之前的一些官媒的上面的一些說法那我們當然會做一些情質的研判那確實的時間點我們事先並不知道只要說可能會有"},{"start":4005.521,"end":4031.257,"text":"是這樣的意思嗎?因為我之前看到這個媒體報導說其實美國有被告知這是事實嗎?我想我們跟美國有保持充分的溝通但是我想說確確的哪一天我想我們預判它會進行但是沒有辦法預判說是確確的是哪一天不是我是從媒體上面看到就是說中共在這個軍營以前有告知美國這部分是事實嗎?"},{"start":4033.915,"end":4037.717,"text":"我想我沒有辦法代替美國回答這樣的一個問題但是我們跟美國有保持綿密的一個情緒的交換"},{"start":4063.695,"end":4063.835,"text":"早上一覺醒來"},{"start":4081.736,"end":4103.309,"text":"軍演了,那之後也會發生類似的狀況嗎?會變成常態性嗎?你是說類似聯合力艦這樣等級規模的這個軍演?對,是時間點會不會就突然間來個半夜兩點?我們只能夠說中國會利用各種的藉口來實施一些大規模的一些演習的可能性,我們沒辦法排除"},{"start":4104.029,"end":4130.376,"text":"但是他平常應該是剛剛我們也在業務報告裡面提到他每月平均大概3到4次的聯合戰備進行這是現在是已經固定的但是以這麼大規模來進行這一個軍演的話我想說要因為所謂的常態化這個概念要稍微定義一下我們現在只能夠說觀察到現在聯合戰備進行是有一個常態化的一個現象"},{"start":4130.996,"end":4144.354,"text":"但是聯合力艦的這樣規模的一個演習,他基本上還是會,可能會在不定的時間裡面,不定的時間裡面來進行這樣子的一個"},{"start":4147.558,"end":4153.822,"text":"所以部長您的意思就是說也許他就是突然間就告知就像我們這次14號對國人來講就是一個好像是突擊式的這個軍援所以我才想說我們事先有沒有訊息得知說他這個時間點14號早上凌晨5點"},{"start":4174.455,"end":4201.114,"text":"中共他要宣布來展開這個軍演的這個活動我想了解是這樣子說說往後可能我們隨時就會stand by也許半夜某天的半夜兩點三點突然又來了一個軍演我們應該是說我們已經做好應處那但是所以不管他任何時候軍演我們都做好準備的意思我們沒有辦法確確的能夠掌握說他是在exactly是在哪一天宣布軍演但是我們已經事前有掌握相關的情節應該是這樣講"},{"start":4203.396,"end":4211.019,"text":"好那部長當然我昨天也有跟國安單位在談到一個讓大家很憂心的就是說OK早上覺得有一點點風聲鶴唳可是後來呢那股票記得台股那天早上剛開盤的時候有一些震盪那之後呢也都沒事了到收盤還收了紅盤那像我們一些概念股金工股啊"},{"start":4224.725,"end":4224.885,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":4241.34,"end":4241.62,"text":"海警船2901編號"},{"start":4259.755,"end":4260.035,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4277.583,"end":4303.044,"text":"比以前都還要大可是國人好像都忽略了那還有就是說中共呢他好像也刻意的釋放出這也還好我們只是一個軍演那甚至呢還送了台灣一個甜心派的一個愛心的這個圖當然台灣是無法消受啦那類似種種他們的戰略是不是也是一種兩面的這手法鬆懈國人的這個"},{"start":4304.745,"end":4323.255,"text":"警備心然後可是呢實際上他進行的所有的軍演都是比過往的都還要來著更加的這個這個嚴厲可能會演變成也許部長你一直所強調的你所擔心的油鹽轉戰的這個可能部長這部分你怎麼看呢"},{"start":4325.319,"end":4332.046,"text":"對,不管是由信轉引或由言轉戰,這樣子的一個想定都在我們這個研討的範圍之內,然後也"},{"start":4338.291,"end":4351.378,"text":"他這樣子的一種可能的行動會壓縮我們預警的時間然後這個可能性是存在的所以我們因應這樣的預警時間壓縮的情況之下我們這個要進入這個比如說要進入到一個加強截備然後再進入到來"},{"start":4366.107,"end":4383.724,"text":"來應急來應處的這個時間會在壓縮情況之下我們配合這樣子的一個想定我們就來縮短我們所有應該要準備的這個時間事實上跟委員報告可以說在今年的韓國演習事實上就已經納入這樣的想定"},{"start":4385.546,"end":4389.849,"text":"中共在海上灰色地帶的侵擾是非常的頻繁尤其在南海我們也看到菲律賓在今年跟中國的衝突其實是明顯的"},{"start":4405.579,"end":4420.396,"text":"提高了很多,比如說中國的海警船它曾經好幾次的蓄意衝撞或這種高壓水砲的方式來攻擊菲律賓的海警船或是民船,甚至還強行登上了菲律賓的船隻來奪取他們的槍支跟裝備等等,這種狀況會不會發生在台海之間呢?"},{"start":4424.537,"end":4451.652,"text":"南海的這個灰色地帶行動會不會複製在這個台海之間?我們一直持續關注他這種灰色地帶的一個洗澡的一個可能性所以在這個部分也納入我們跟應處的範圍那特別是有我們要跟這個海巡要做充分的結合配合然後做一個即時情緒的一個交換那同時來共同應處這樣的一個可能的作為"},{"start":4452.634,"end":4478.776,"text":"所以這部分也是會是我們擔心的部分是不是?哪天就像就是滄香走火了然後呢中國呢需要製造更大的這個衝突來造成台海之間的這個不平靜應該很明顯就是說他的海警他的海警這一次向配合軍艦來共同行動他就是意圖運用這個法律戰跟這個心理戰跟然後認知戰來作為將這個台海內水化"},{"start":4479.296,"end":4484.14,"text":"臺灣問題內政化的目的海警要用執法作為彰顯主權事實上我們也要捍衛我們的主權我們認為像這樣子的一種進行應用海警作為相關的作為我們要隨時警惕然後要妥適的來應處"},{"start":4503.234,"end":4503.694,"text":"海警船排水量高達12000公噸"},{"start":4523.712,"end":4523.852,"text":"國防部：國安單位："},{"start":4553.204,"end":4571.427,"text":"對,我們希望國內有所警惕,那另外我們認為海警結合海軍,他們的海軍來從事這樣的共同的這樣子的一個演習或者是操演,這樣的一個行為事實上是屬於你不能夠單純的將他的海警作為執法的一環,應該是屬於軍事演練的一環這樣子"},{"start":4575.488,"end":4576.329,"text":"王定宇召委"},{"start":4607.849,"end":4608.493,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長有請部長"},{"start":4616.838,"end":4642.685,"text":"部長早我非常贊成你剛才講的一句話不要把他們的所謂的警巡警察行動Cost Guard單純視為那樣的行動它應該是一個準軍事甚至於就是軍事行動這概念是對的料敵從寬我先請教中共從啟動聯合戰備警巡到現在它的頻率大概多久一次這個問題我昨天有問過國安局長"},{"start":4644.588,"end":4664.474,"text":"我剛剛業務報告也提到了這個每月大概三四次那也就是說每週一次對差不多所以我接下來繼續問之前我先提醒不只提醒國防部國安局我也提醒我們立法院的同事跟各界不要陷入中共命名的陷阱邏輯我一直問你有沒有聯合力艦CDEFG"},{"start":4669.309,"end":4698.501,"text":"他隨便把一個戰備警巡加一點規模你說沒有我就把他取個名字叫C去削弱你的公信力讓內部失去互信那個命名的邏輯齁因為名字是他來定的樣態是他來決定的所以我們在這邊去猜測他有沒有利件CDEFGHIJK齁那個全部是由他來決定所以不用進入到這個命名的邏輯陷阱重要的是我們自己做好什麼樣的準備所以回到我剛才問的題目齁"},{"start":4699.381,"end":4719.729,"text":"在共軍或者他們的coast guard平均每週一次的聯合戰備警巡他的樣態大概是什麼樣子有用到戰鬨機嗎海空兵力都有嗎都有這樣子的一個狀況存在他大概他平均起來大概機艦大概量是多少"},{"start":4721.191,"end":4745.397,"text":"這個不等,這個不等,這個有時候他,因為您剛剛提到的就是說他是一般的聯合戰備警巡的話,他就是空軍的兵力,然後另外海軍配合抵近24海浬嘛,對不對那另外他如果還要結合海空聯訓的話,那他可能會西南再過來,然後再往到東邊,這樣子所以應該已經提到兵力啦"},{"start":4745.957,"end":4750.079,"text":"昨天國安局長回答我說有新增一個狀況就是他們有用了登陸艦我不知道我們這邊海軍用登陸艦在做巡航這個是正常還是不正常"},{"start":4774.638,"end":4796.298,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下我們在我們所掌握到的在這次聯合力艦2024B並沒有看到他們用登陸艦但是在戰備警巡有沒有是啦戰備警巡有嘛對在前幾天有一個但那個那是新的因為以前沒有是但不是在這次的聯合戰備對對就是不是聯合力艦B啦也就是說我看了一下昨天"},{"start":4797.078,"end":4798.54,"text":"聯合戰備警巡用到登陸艦是尋常還是不尋常?"},{"start":4814.069,"end":4833.305,"text":"應該是說他也是做一個操演那只是他操演裡面的一環而已他採用的是哪一款的那個兩棲登陸艦報告委員我海軍參謀長那他一般的聯合戰備警巡那他都有一般他的想定的狀況那除了必要對我施壓的風控之外他用那個兩棲登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡"},{"start":4838.189,"end":4867.083,"text":"是哪一種?我現在列了4種那它有LST它主要就是以這個大概是動拐樑型的這個LST那偶爾會它比較有時候我們有發現到它動拐腰又在比較遠會做這個部分所以有用到動拐樑也有用到動拐腰是所以它不只一次距離不等那可能就在做一些必要的複合式海灘還有一個想定你們研判它把它放進去它是要做什麼?"},{"start":4868.234,"end":4895.831,"text":"可能就在做一個實戰化的一個戰場所以就是航道的熟悉是戰區的管理是那我們有沒有什麼反制因應之道對這些情形報名所有有進到我們責任區的部分我們都會透過我們艱增還有我們都我們的案子的這個飛彈都有做目標的船地跟子弟都有做一個反制的一個訓練那我們的自海的飛彈部隊都有做一個戰備的一個運作"},{"start":4900.997,"end":4909.831,"text":"最近對岸有沒有不正常的集結狀態或者是兵力、物資的移動您是說就是近期來"},{"start":4911.246,"end":4935.868,"text":"在地面的部隊裏面沒有地面沒有那那個兩位幕僚先請回我先再請教部長下一個題目是我們除了海空軍重要以外本席非常注重的是我們單兵的裝備我也謝謝部長在我們的T112的步槍雷子器跟光學瞄準儀那個確實是可以縮減"},{"start":4937.869,"end":4960.189,"text":"訓練的時間提高訓練的成效甚至於未來後備戰力要迅速成為合格的步槍兵這是有注意的那個金額相較於大型裝備其實沒那麼大但對陸軍對我們的步槍兵的戰力是有幫忙的那本席現在要提的是抗彈板抗彈板是保護我們第一線作戰部隊的生命安全"},{"start":4961.738,"end":4990.555,"text":"所以過去曾經發生過網紅拿抗彈板來打當然那個測試的方式也許不符標準但也顯示國人對於我們國軍抗彈板防護裝備能力的重視但我最近就發現我們軍備局局長這件事情可能在你來之前發生還是之後我不知道你注意一下這個事情我們今年初205場採購抗彈板的陶瓷抗彈陶瓷"},{"start":4992.042,"end":5014.377,"text":"那得標的兩家廠商普插田被判定他是經過越南洗產地的中國貨插盟他用的是回收細粉作為原料結果被政府採購往上你去看google上面就有判定是無法絕標那因為時間關係我直接點出一個問題"},{"start":5017.645,"end":5042.168,"text":"在這一次決標裡面有幾個問題除了我剛才看到以外你知道表面的塗層我們竟然是用聚氨酯不是用聚尿美軍是用聚尿跟委員報告我們規範就是一定要用聚尿他用的是聚氨酯你去查聚尿比較貴可是他韌性比較好結果你們那個材料上面塗的是聚氨酯"},{"start":5043.188,"end":5063.839,"text":"居然只是低階工業材料他的韌性很低這生命安全的問題所以局長部長這個要注意一下你們明年說要開始量產對不對跟委員報告明年的量產案現在都還在招標階段你計劃明年量產我趁你還沒有量產我告訴你哪些問題第二個你們採購的規格"},{"start":5066.641,"end":5091.289,"text":"有一個叫磁性快扣就是我們穿上那個反彈背心可以趕快扣趕快拿下來你們用的是磁性扣你知道嗎局長這個的話是在我們的外歸部分我們有注意到阿為什麼要用磁性扣我告訴你美軍美軍的ESAPI抗彈板是不採取磁扣"},{"start":5092.728,"end":5119.626,"text":"我們稍微搜索了一下全世界各軍種用的防彈背心它的扣都要用非磁性你知道用磁性會有什麼問題嗎海軍陸戰隊的指北針就失效了在水中的時候或者在移動的時候它會吸雜物所以世界各軍都沒有用磁扣只有我們台灣軍備局在採購的時候用磁扣而且就一家有磁扣其他都沒有這不是綁規格標嗎"},{"start":5123.188,"end":5150.648,"text":"跟委員報告這些委員提供的資訊我們會下去還有再來我們的抗彈陶板是要用碳化矽的陶瓷你們得標的那一家齁那一家某盟是用回收矽粉判定無法決標請你注意第二名第二名得標的那一家他的生產線根本沒有生產碳化矽陶瓷他如果能夠供貨你去查他貨哪裡來的"},{"start":5151.92,"end":5171.691,"text":"不要用Made in China的你懂我意思嗎不是第二名就好欸也不是第一名就好欸你們這整個投標案齁壓壓烏啊還有不是就這樣子而已啊你們為什麼多了欸以往都沒有你們為什麼這次多了在他那個夾層裡面放了PE部啊"},{"start":5172.998,"end":5197.185,"text":"一方面那個陸軍常委長穿的PE布第一個那個透汗性有問題第二個我後來去看了一下只有一家投標廠商他有能夠他在甲層裡面放PE布其他的沒有規格標持扣規格標然後呢塗料給我用用這一個聚氨酯去取代聚尿"},{"start":5198.752,"end":5207.737,"text":"外行人不知道聚胺酯跟聚尿那個進去那個任性那個是有影響的局長請問一下這個採購案是誰決定的這些規格"},{"start":5213.134,"end":5235.786,"text":"跟委員報告所有的規格都是205廠根據他們的去年7月委員所指導完之後新式的抗抗版來用測試完之後我們就結合了我建議局長我講坦白話我也不先入為主我也在沒有證據下我也不講是誰但是不要拿205廠跟生殖中心當墊背不是這兩個啦主持會議的時候"},{"start":5240.738,"end":5266.277,"text":"是誰要用磁性快扣的你抓一個點那個顧部長也是法律專家你抓一個單點看那個單點是誰堅持的大概就知道全貌是什麼就是說這些規格會妨礙我們的抗彈背心抗彈板的量產如果照這樣量產下去以後是不合用全世界只有我們用那個有磁鐵的開玩笑所以本席"},{"start":5267.762,"end":5279.841,"text":"提供這一些事實上他後面的廠商還有跟我們原來軍服供應商一直累積無法供應售後服務讓國軍弟兄抱怨連連的同一掛人同一掛人"},{"start":5285.167,"end":5311.577,"text":"軍服我們的公營站他就做不好了想要來做抗彈板你做好保護生命安全做好我都沒有意見我很少針對標案體檢這個事情是影響到每一個第一線主戰部隊作戰部隊他能不能抵抗抵抗子彈的襲擊的這生命安全的問題而且這一批大量採購下去我們搞不好未來連後備部隊首備部隊主戰部隊這三級的部隊都會用到"},{"start":5313.223,"end":5328.523,"text":"所以部長我最後一點時間給你齁這個案子你怎麼看因為剛剛委員指導的這些相關的這個事項當然我也是剛剛聽到了齁那就這些事項我想下去軍備局應該要做個瞭解"},{"start":5332.065,"end":5359.464,"text":"然後查證完之後再我本來還有狙擊槍阿什麼的我那個時間我不要佔用太多我在跟相關單位討論但我提醒部長因為明年要量產是所以有時間上的問題當然我們希望要量產因為部隊需要但不要為了量產採用不合規格劣質的廠商我就這個建議好不好謝謝是我們一定會來注意這件事情好不好是謝謝"},{"start":5360.951,"end":5361.771,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":5392.043,"end":5405.141,"text":"是 黃委員好部長今天我要問的議題裡面可能就是對國家的安全包含國防的安全絕對有息息相關昨天我問國安局局長"},{"start":5406.89,"end":5433.73,"text":"題目裡面以哈中東的戰史但是未提到朝鮮半島朝鮮半島在前4天以前就已經發生了鐵路的一個轟炸也造成兩航之間這些的紛擾但是對我們台海的局勢絕對有影響所以接著我要問的是"},{"start":5436.175,"end":5440.397,"text":"我們你是法律專家我想請教"},{"start":5441.752,"end":5468.811,"text":"美國戰略與國際問題的研究中心已經發布關於中國反分裂國家法的報告中指出明年是該法律制定20週年有可能進行修改更激進的為實用武力統一台灣提供合法性那請教部長有何看法要如何因應"},{"start":5470.131,"end":5473.356,"text":"我想對於任何這些"},{"start":5475.086,"end":5501.699,"text":"有相關的這些智庫單位所發表的報告我們都表示予以尊重不過我想中國公布相關的任何的規範都有對我們來講這個是對外政策的宣示效果我們兩岸互不隸屬的國際現實對我方是不具管轄權的所以中國內國法跟香港法律的適用解釋對我們在台的國人我不認為有任何的拘束力那他如果要"},{"start":5502.319,"end":5504.98,"text":"我們現在不要模糊一個焦點第一個不管是聯合力線A聯合力線B"},{"start":5525.612,"end":5552.666,"text":"昨天國安局局長可能會引進到聯合力線C剛王定宇委員也特別有講不管用什麼方法可能會有其他的代號但是現在反分裂國家法這個既然都已經釋出對國際的鮮言那我們不得不提防"},{"start":5553.376,"end":5577.03,"text":"因為我們在反分裂國家法的是在2005年的中共通過基本的法律其中最重要的內容是以下條件將以和平手段完成統一第一個台灣從中國分裂出去的事實"},{"start":5577.89,"end":5594.026,"text":"第二﹐發聲將會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事變第三﹐和平統一的可能性完全的喪失﹐所以該法是中共設定統一台灣的條件和統一"},{"start":5594.666,"end":5611.205,"text":"後的基本治理的原則所以這個我們不得不防因為我們現在已經紛紛擾擾我說部長你要有自己的因應的措施跟看法你再說一遍那是不是可以來回答我這個問題"},{"start":5612.698,"end":5636.49,"text":"我想我們是不會採取挑釁的作為我們大家共同的目標都是在維持台海的和平穩定現狀所以我們不會採取任何挑釁的一個作為那現在看起來包括禮拜一這樣的一個聯合力艦的演習還有剛剛講的這種每個月每週進行的那種常態化的聯合"},{"start":5638.28,"end":5651.002,"text":"戰備警訊等等的這些從事這樣子一個挑釁的這個行為的都是中國所以我們希望的就是能夠維持台海的和平穩定現狀"},{"start":5652.145,"end":5679.534,"text":"好就我們國防部的角度我們有一個退將叫戰右俠退將那你們已經做一個懲處因為他已赴中所以你們要為了表達對整個親中的這樣的一個行為也造成很多的降官可能也會發生那你們有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":5680.82,"end":5703.653,"text":"我們已經就是說多方查核認定這個他確實是有違反這一個兩岸人民關係條例第9條之3的這個規定所以我們經過審查會的認定之後做出這一個適切的一個行政的這個懲處他現在也請了法律律師來提出辯護你們有什麼看法"},{"start":5704.363,"end":5707.387,"text":"其他的就是有關於青年扶勤的同意書在某高中發放青年扶勤同意書給學生"},{"start":5724.968,"end":5741.382,"text":"並注明是依據全民的防衛動員準備法及配合地方政府學校青年服刑的大隊需求擔心是動員高中學生暫時自願參加後勤的工作"},{"start":5744.137,"end":5765.049,"text":"這邊有一個調查的報告以戰爭無關但是這是教育部對媒體所回答的說這個以戰爭無關請問部長像教育部這樣的一個說法你認同嗎第一個我還是"},{"start":5767.53,"end":5789.429,"text":"說明這個確實是跟這個學生會不會參與軍事行動或軍事勤務有關是不會有任何的關聯的這是第一點第二點就是說我想這個整個對學生的這個教育訓練的目的是在於任何這個重大災害或者是任何緊急狀況發生的時候他們能夠在這個校園裡面能夠自救"},{"start":5791.89,"end":5817.691,"text":"所以我認為重要的是在於有從事這樣子的一個教育的一個訓練那第三點我認為呢像這樣子的一種志願的一種同意書的調查我認為是可以檢討廢除啦我個人認為是沒有太大意義所以今天有一個某高中已經發放青年扶勤同意書給學生那如果是依據的是權動法那就是涉及到兩個部分"},{"start":5818.351,"end":5841.327,"text":"第一個這件事應該是國防部主管或者是國防部參議第二就是前動法第三條指出在動員準備階段是要這個機除戰時總體戰力動員實施階段是要支援軍事作戰及緊急為難這是怎麼樣的一個戰爭無關這怎麼會是無關呢"},{"start":5846.288,"end":5861.874,"text":"我只是說明第一點就是說這個按照權動法的這個15條的規定這個教育部他要訂定一些相關的計畫那這樣子的一個計畫他們所主要的目的就是在讓這個校園"},{"start":5863.595,"end":5886.548,"text":"他們在任何重大災害或是任何緊急狀況發生的時候他們能夠發揮這個讓維護校園的安全跟自救救人的一個功能所以我剛剛認為已經表示我認為重點是放在這一個教育訓練上面至於他們說要發放這個這個同意書這個部分當然是由這個教育部來主責"},{"start":5887.108,"end":5889.81,"text":"當然不是很有意義而且趕快修正因為這個是造成居民或是家庭或是很多全國的學生的不安"},{"start":5913.715,"end":5929.073,"text":"這就是一個製造一個問題讓居民讓百姓都已經不安的一個議題那另外就是我想請教我們目前來講我們在你上任之後你採取了這些"},{"start":5931.209,"end":5931.709,"text":"李穎的宣教有"},{"start":5959.935,"end":5960.075,"text":"第一個"},{"start":5988.086,"end":6006.603,"text":"部隊不請沒有減少幹部的業務反而讓部隊把簡單的事情做成一個複雜的工作提醒部長真正的問題在觀念和執行的落實部長如果要下令卻沒有去了解實際的狀況或執行的話"},{"start":6009.325,"end":6024.296,"text":"這等於是改革只是紙上談兵那我也希望在基層上的官兵更加的苦不堪言所以我們你要實際了解你所下達的這個命令到底下面有沒有去執行你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":6024.776,"end":6043.127,"text":"是,我覺得委員指教的是對的,我應該要進行了解就是說有沒有因為我想要達成一個比較人性化的管理,然後減少這個形式主義,然後用檢法來刺猬,這件事情到底有沒有貫徹到基層,我應該要一切了解"},{"start":6043.767,"end":6045.308,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是徐曉欣委員"},{"start":6076.564,"end":6078.088,"text":"副董事長"},{"start":6093.176,"end":6113.988,"text":"部長好,我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要,是關我們在飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致以及是否能夠達到預期的效果首先我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質,我們先看第一個就是過濾酸氨,這個AP固態的推進器"},{"start":6117.33,"end":6143.169,"text":"那過濾酸呢是過濾酸胺的原料過濾酸胺可以說呢它是固態的等同過濾酸胺的半成品我們就統一呢叫它AP非氮的固態推進器那呢它的這個過濾酸胺的成品為切割符合這個需求的球狀目前有規格兩種直徑225跟400微米那它是美國管制出口的關鍵的原料"},{"start":6145.27,"end":6146.111,"text":"我們是請中科院來回答"},{"start":6168.319,"end":6168.539,"text":"你院長我好"},{"start":6182.489,"end":6204.822,"text":"好是除了第7項之外都有需要齁這個除了第7項沒有使用AP之外其他都要用到AP表示過濾酸胺在這2400億的特別預算中可以說是舉足輕重的那呢其實先前林傳媒有出一個報導關於中科院外購過濾酸胺出包的問題那就是這個零成分的過高"},{"start":6205.302,"end":6231.407,"text":"那抗中的飛彈射程只有勉強這個呃過低標而已那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題"},{"start":6235.336,"end":6251.622,"text":"我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的我們不用相信它,真的。"},{"start":6252.862,"end":6268.109,"text":"我們來看一下我們接下來有2400億的抗中的飛彈在去年112月向美國太平洋公司進口163噸市價台幣8000萬的過濾酸胺我們看到的是第一點是我們有沒有按合約送驗這個問題你還沒有回答我"},{"start":6279.949,"end":6281.971,"text":"所以不需要驗收也沒有關係?如果我製造不成的話我當然就退貨"},{"start":6309.861,"end":6322.409,"text":"所以有檢驗?當然有檢驗。好,你們有檢驗就對了。是。好,所以呢,好,那我們看一下,那美國這個,你是怎麼檢驗的?你是第三方抽驗嗎?"},{"start":6324.074,"end":6324.795,"text":"還是美方抽菸?"},{"start":6343.106,"end":6343.787,"text":"美國來的是你說是比較好但是呢我們來看一下"},{"start":6366.949,"end":6367.309,"text":"我再強調一遍"},{"start":6393.464,"end":6394.825,"text":"我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的"},{"start":6420.413,"end":6438.607,"text":"所以你認為這個報告是有錯的但是我告訴你一下這已經不是第一次有人去查核了這是第二份以上有人去SGS去查核這些從美國寄到貨的一些相關的這些美國寄來的樣品那美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品"},{"start":6439.648,"end":6461.161,"text":"他在送到台灣的時候在樣品上面來說是有些微的不正常但是還算是可以但他的大貨送到我們香港的表面抽樣的時候就開始比例開始不正常了在大貨桶內的抽樣的時候就是極端的不正常的情況"},{"start":6462.162,"end":6474.155,"text":"所以我們可以看到就是說呢,廠商給了我們的大貨,那在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP,但是呢在裡面來講的話是會有問題的"},{"start":6477.278,"end":6477.818,"text":"我必須要強調我製造飛彈的固態火箭"},{"start":6505.202,"end":6507.824,"text":"你經驗出來的東西那當然是後續嘛但是你前面你還是會有他的原料啊"},{"start":6528.837,"end":6531.658,"text":"在JP10的部分除了固態的部分還有液態的部分在液態的部分我想請問一下JP10的純度應該要是多少"},{"start":6555.488,"end":6569.813,"text":"正常的話,我們希望它的純度是越高越好。多少呢?我們現在精煉出來之後的JP10都到99%以上。99%以上,那有沒有加入其他的化學物?有,這我不方便講。"},{"start":6570.461,"end":6593.008,"text":"有嘛,你沒有不方便講的問題,因為其實呢他這個資料是有可以看到但在美國的軍方的資料裡面我可以給大家看一下正版的美軍軍規裡面呢他很清楚的看到這是我們有花14塊美金來解鎖的美軍的軍規裡面他寫到外四清二環五二西必須要介於98.5%到100%"},{"start":6595.769,"end":6614.713,"text":"但是在我們的JP10裡面是只要在加劑了相關化合物裡面有達到98.5%就算合格那你認為現在台灣的這個JP10跟美國官方的這個軍規的JP10有相符合嗎?沒有,所以他正在接受我們的輔導產制"},{"start":6619.614,"end":6627.703,"text":"所以你們要介紹那所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況那已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的委員沒有沒有那什麼時候才會因為你現在的這個查核情形嗎那你看到的是我們現在你說中科院採購作業已經周延了"},{"start":6640.638,"end":6641.719,"text":"那我現在就在針對這個部分在詢問阿"},{"start":6670.375,"end":6687.867,"text":"我詢問你的中華化工公司你告訴我說以針周延但是他就是還加入了其他的化合物那你告訴我以針周延但又不符合美國的軍規你說你還在輔導他但是你告訴我已經非常周延了這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎"},{"start":6690.604,"end":6707.753,"text":"我們說以針周延是我們輔導他他已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範但是我沒有辦法把他量產我們同時輔導的國家所以沒有辦法把他量產但以針周延對是這樣子喔所以你以針周延的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣"},{"start":6708.956,"end":6720.903,"text":"部長你是最後 最後一點時間部長你是法律人你看到以真周言的感覺是什麼是已經完成了呢還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子原來以真周言的解釋是說還沒有辦法量產那只是說我們還在輔導當中"},{"start":6725.605,"end":6749.638,"text":"副長最後一點時間給你回答好不好副長院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下好請再要我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP10來增加他的產量那接受我的輔導他已經能夠做初步做出來的話我們就認為他你已經完成我的輔導但是最後你要我要下單跟你量產驗收的話你必須要通過我的驗收標準"},{"start":6750.498,"end":6775.212,"text":"一個是接受輔導他合格了一個是我可以下單跟你量產這是完全不同的定義你123不都講說沒有疑慮嗎你看你上面寫的powerpoint上中華化工產能無疑慮中華化工交貨品質無疑慮中科院採購作業以增周延這是你上面自己寫的然後你現在又告訴我說他還不能跟你下單他還不能跟你交貨因為你還在輔導"},{"start":6776.172,"end":6804.303,"text":"所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容明顯肉眼可見是不一樣我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢台上備詢台上還要跟我硬拗所以因為我的時間已經到了謝謝朝偉還多給我一點時間講但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣所以不管你的態度再如何的強硬所有人都可以看到就是不一樣不一樣就是不一樣所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告用書面回覆謝謝"},{"start":6805.632,"end":6824.059,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝委員好請回好接下來進行詢答的委員是沈博洋委員謝謝主席有請部長謝謝來部長請"},{"start":6832.515,"end":6833.856,"text":"社群通訊與家屬聯繫的實施計畫如何落實?"},{"start":6859.864,"end":6886.979,"text":"你現在講的是指說他那個社群通訊的對對對變成用社群的現在就是說我了解是說征戰局他現在是說為了能夠讓家屬跟家屬雙向溝通能夠及時傳達所以呢他就將這個設一個LINE的一個群組然後來快速的來做一個及時的資訊傳達他的原意是如此這樣"},{"start":6887.993,"end":6903.54,"text":"因為我會問這樣子就是因為我們都還是希望能夠具體落實那我們很高興有看到這樣的一個文發出來因為我們是看到這是國防部發出來的文那當然我們在另外一件事情有因為這一個我覺得應該在落實上應該不會那麼困難但我們有看到另外一個就是在這一個58這個這個報紙部"},{"start":6906.661,"end":6906.801,"text":"這是不是請陸軍"},{"start":6927.317,"end":6953.978,"text":"報委員我我到目前我沒有掌握到這個狀況下去我會做個了解到委員辦公室向您報告好謝謝因為我覺得這個是蠻嚴重的事情就是說呢我們連坐這種事情就是第一個照理說連坐往下連坐這個其實說真的是不適合啦今天假設今天有發生什麼事情是長官督導的一個責任嘛那如果說今天是因為這樣然後就取消大家的榮譽假這聽起來是不太合適因為畢竟人事是有人事的規定"},{"start":6954.418,"end":6969.844,"text":"那這個對我來講這個從經驗來講已經遇到兩次了就是說如果這個是屬實的話就會變成說我們常常人事明明就有人事的規定但是每一個旅每一個營常常用自己的方式去處理那這樣會變成上面沒有下達啦比如說我們剛剛講這個剛剛講這個家屬的社群聯絡這個是美意"},{"start":6973.866,"end":6975.427,"text":"我們需要就每個個案來進行檢討檢討之後呢再傳遞我們認為應該正確的"},{"start":7003.27,"end":7004.151,"text":"領導的方式跟作為。"},{"start":7026.545,"end":7026.565,"text":"預算緣額"},{"start":7050.473,"end":7070.971,"text":"我們看到這個就是我們是從國防部的資料去跑的這個統計就會發現真正減少的因為這一個不同的線是代表2023到2025顏色越深就代表是越近期的那我們可以看到其實在這個上層降臨的這個部分其實它幾乎沒有什麼差異幾乎減少的都是基層的部隊"},{"start":7071.892,"end":7089.839,"text":"所以這一個目前我們就算假設我們今天真的要檢討說到底我們這個預算原額的問題或者說未來我們要流盈我都知道因為我們通常會討論到這個流盈率我們的比例現在其實都符合正常但如果我們把它拆開來看的話會發現上面是過度符合正常的"},{"start":7090.219,"end":7090.559,"text":"希望他可以做一個通盤的一個檢討"},{"start":7113.043,"end":7139.939,"text":"我們正在進行一個通白的檢討就各項的這個原因就包括就是說你招募有招募成效進來之後但是你的不適乎然後太處或者是這個流盈率的這個的這個比例是如何那這些部分呢我想我們都應該要去理解他的原因是什麼那"},{"start":7140.419,"end":7140.679,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":7157.705,"end":7185.294,"text":"的一個相應的一個一個一個待遇的比較基礎然後來增加這個招募的這個成效那招募進來之後呢我們怎麼樣讓他能夠來伺服那這個剛剛就提到了這個管理面也也是很重大的一個一個因素那除了管理面之外呢那我們整個對於這個他就在在"},{"start":7186.447,"end":7214.267,"text":"趙牧的那個當下他是不是就能夠知道他所要承擔的這些相關的工作等等那他對於這個軍中的這個管理這些相關作為他是不是就他來看的話他是不是能夠充分的知悉他所應該可能面對的這個環境是怎麼樣這個我想都應該是要從趙牧劉瑩跟還有管理面還有待遇面的各方面要來探討他的誠意這樣子"},{"start":7216.089,"end":7228.539,"text":"政戰後也會針對這個做一些研擬跟討論我們就看在年底之前或在明年的時候我們看有什麼叫通盤的方案因為畢竟部長一開始上任的時候最主要強調的就是業務上的一些不必要業務的減少違規戰訓本務"},{"start":7231.742,"end":7247.797,"text":"針對這件事情來看一下到底有沒有辦法做到改善那這一個業務這個部分我先講到這邊接下來我想講的就是比較回歸戰訓本務那這個有澄清就是在講說這是兩件事情第一件事情它就是說這個復工站的這個食材因為這次有山陀兒"},{"start":7248.738,"end":7269.029,"text":"山陀兒畢竟停了稍微比較久一點,它停了三天。那有一些這個復工站呢,他們就會發現他們的冷凍庫啊,這個預備的這個食材存量,撐不到兩三天啦。那但是我們有去稍微詢問其他的,因為這個陳情的只是個案。我們有去問其他的復工站,有一些復工站是說他們的食物其實本來按照他們的存量是有辦法存到兩三天的。"},{"start":7269.729,"end":7297.062,"text":"但是可能有個別的他沒有辦法這樣做那因為這一次颱風他是有預警的但有時候會有一些無預警的一些地震天災也有可能會兩到三天那我們有問一些復工站的人員他們會講說就是如果今天是有預警的話他們有時候也會讓就是他們採買的這個對象比如說準備多一點比如說瓜果類的啊可以放比較久的啊或者冷凍的肉食品啊等等之類的但我想知道的是因為剛好這是山陀兒啦所以有一些零星的這些陳情出現"},{"start":7297.882,"end":7299.964,"text":"國防部是不是可以針對這件事情重新來做一次盤點?"},{"start":7328.703,"end":7351,"text":"現在一般來講應該是說主副食的部分按照規定應該是30...主食是30日以上主食是30日以上然後單位的冷凍食品都在7天以上這是最基本盤因為畢竟現在我們雖然是討論平時但是我覺得總是我們要去考量到各式各樣的事情的發生"},{"start":7351.58,"end":7371.928,"text":"所以對於這些個別的這個我們再跟國防部來溝通然後看一下至少讓我們確定不管是在糧食不管是在武器等等之類我們都能夠有好的這些存放對所以我想如果有這樣子的話那麼如果有單位太依賴這個護弓戰的這個食材的話這個可能我們要來檢討一下這樣"},{"start":7373.256,"end":7397.249,"text":"謝謝部長那我本來還想問無人機那因為時間不夠了那我再問幾就是一樣都是跟這個有關的好了就是也是食品的就是說我們現在有這個當然我們有這種加熱式的這種餐盒當然也有這種乾糧有各式各樣的那我們當然也有遇到一些陳情是在講說因為這一包其實不是很便宜就是在外面買很貴可能要五六百那我們看過海巡有採買可以採買到兩百多塊當然是便宜蠻多陸軍應該也是可以買到比較便宜"},{"start":7399.75,"end":7423.945,"text":"但我會如何我們一個月現在的這個餐食費按照這樣處一處其實他不可能每一餐都吃到這一個但我們知道美軍也不可能每一餐吃那麼好啦那但是目前我們對於因為之前國防部有提到這個熱食追送那熱食追送跟這種乾糧會跟這一個現在這種加熱式的餐盒目前第一個就是我想知道的是他的規劃如何但第二個最重要的就是預算"},{"start":7424.685,"end":7427.306,"text":"有關那個就是類似這樣子的一個條理包這樣子的一個我們在明年已經規劃試行新增這個搭配部隊來做那大概是規劃在28"},{"start":7452.918,"end":7453.759,"text":"臨楚英委員"},{"start":7488.922,"end":7489.262,"text":"國防部長顧立雄"},{"start":7506.278,"end":7524.74,"text":"特別點到就是面對中共的認知作戰所以國防部持續有包括防制假訊息啊反制中共軍事威脅提升媒體識讀能力那多元反制那麼第7頁也寫到說本部跟國防院學術界有合制所謂的這個媒體識讀的教學影片"},{"start":7525.38,"end":7552.989,"text":"那麼我們現在是不是就直接來實測一下就是面對中共的這個認知作戰或是這些訊息的提供我們在這個反制上面或者是軍事威脅上面媒體識讀的能力到底我們能夠讀出什麼來這個是昨天其實我在我們同樣委員會當中我有詢問過這個就是蔡明彥蔡局長這個是中國的軍演他們首度在YT上面直播"},{"start":7553.849,"end":7573.199,"text":"那麼我們都知道這個youtube上面中國人是看不到的啦他們除非要翻牆啦那麼也就是說其實只有我們在這個自由民主的台灣或是其他全球可以看得到那麼我就想要就教部長或者是我們現在陪同的將官們這樣的一個直播影片"},{"start":7574.399,"end":7597.996,"text":"當中國其實是看不到的時候他所要傳遞的訊息是什麼尤其是他是從中午12點13分開始然後到19點19分可是如果根據我們的了解現在他們所宣布的時間期程是大概6點左右就結束了那麼面對這種直播他透露了什麼樣的訊息呢部長"},{"start":7599.678,"end":7606.15,"text":"其實我們有相當成就發現他那個直播很多是預錄的畫面並不是真的直播"},{"start":7609.079,"end":7637.46,"text":"委員好我是情報支次長是當天的這個直播如同剛剛部長所說的這個絕大部分它都是預製好而且有很多其實還有左右兩邊的畫面喔在我們的鏡頭所以看得到的右手邊它其實就是有一個量是網路宣傳影片啊講這個共軍軍力有多麼英雄威武然後聯合利劍但它其實這個就是拍攝好的你是指這個部分嗎是好"},{"start":7640.581,"end":7665.493,"text":"直播的部分也有部分是預錄的直播的部分應該就我們去觀察他那個跟現場這個演習的這個部分狀況是不一樣的而且有影片發現是跟過去某一些影片其實是完全是一樣的所以看得出來是有很大部分是預錄的一個不是真正的直播的"},{"start":7666.049,"end":7686.308,"text":"好那麼類似這樣的訊息當然國防部不見得會把這樣的訊息公開給民眾知道但是有沒有把你們的研判做一個包括在這一次之後做一個必要的讓我們知道軍中袍則能夠知道因為這個是有助於其實"},{"start":7687.429,"end":7705.176,"text":"在化解認知作戰當中一個非常重要的就像我們看到右手邊我們都知道這一定是預錄的畫面可是我們不知道的是在左手邊是預錄的畫面但是在右手邊的時候這個所謂直播網當中他所拍攝的到底是廈門是不是真的是廈門然後廈門的對岸所看出來的到底是哪裡是金門嗎還是其他的地方那像這樣的時候比如說這是預錄的畫面你就會覺得說這是造假"},{"start":7717.02,"end":7731.98,"text":"那這樣的訊息有沒有直接的在部隊當中在軍隊當中讓我們國軍弟兄知道那麼他有傳達是什麼樣的資訊到底是我們面對這樣的畫面該恐懼焦慮或者是其實他就是一個紙老虎"},{"start":7732.601,"end":7737.508,"text":"或者是他就是一個虛假的假訊息我們該怎麼樣來判讀他所傳達的訊息是什麼比如說我們現在講到的我們還有跟這個學界合作所謂媒體的試讀那這個我們到底試讀是什麼因為他如果覺得這一次做了有效他下一次會再做"},{"start":7750.145,"end":7752.186,"text":"報委員很簡單跟委員報告這個其實就是一個複合式的灰色地帶很明顯的太陽舉兩個簡單的例子"},{"start":7775.888,"end":7784.037,"text":"他所要傳遞出來的訊息裡面所講的重點不外乎就是要告訴我們所收看的這個民眾"},{"start":7785.933,"end":7786.073,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7807.91,"end":7837.159,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7837.264,"end":7843.411,"text":"好不好意思主席我的這個幕不見了被認知被被被滲透了嗎"},{"start":7847.995,"end":7849.816,"text":"我會建議把它也放進你們的教材當中"},{"start":7869.244,"end":7888.453,"text":"他本身所傳達的這種所謂動嚇或是認知戰的訊息當中必須要傳達清楚那另外一個其實本席非常關心的就是這個本席一直持續在追蹤那就是在9月6號的時候媒體臥草所提供就是在我們的營區當中事實上"},{"start":7889.894,"end":7915.532,"text":"交通部內政部經濟部農業部其實他為了當然所謂現在的政府資訊公開那麼他會有很多其實他當然原本的設立的意義跟目的並不是為了這個去洩露軍機或是軍事要塞但是在政府資訊公開的情況底下那麼我們發現9月5號有一個農業部底下所屬的農水署水利署的這個鏡頭"},{"start":7916.753,"end":7935.576,"text":"因為在沒有關注的情況底下偏移而拍攝到了動態的軍方的營區的影片那麼其實我必須要先說的是國防部的回應非常的迅速確實也說立刻就做了遮蔽但是我想要就叫請問的是後續的部分那就是"},{"start":7938.219,"end":7960.319,"text":"從這麼多個部會至少交通部內政部經濟部農業部再到地方政府有沒有全面的去清查在我們的重要的軍事要塞外頭有沒有類似這樣的監視器因為他的用意原本可能是為了交通可能是為了農田灌溉水利清淤防災等等的需求但是既然"},{"start":7960.759,"end":7984.138,"text":"對"},{"start":7986.7,"end":7987.361,"text":"入軍司令部常務長"},{"start":8000.194,"end":8024.041,"text":"那他後面他們認為這個鏡頭他們沒有需要所以除了先遮遮蔽之外那後面是已經移除了這是第一個部分那第二個有關於全面清查部分因為我今天我後面的數據我下去跟委員報告但針對這個案子我們有下一個通令第一個就是這些基於公務部門他為了監控他的這些"},{"start":8025.862,"end":8052.083,"text":"作業上面的正常他會依據相關的規範跟我們軍中包含到通知和保防部門來提出申請那這有兩個復試檢控的機制第一個就是說我們要去確認他所造的射入的區域的確是因為他這個而且不能因年久鬆動或是偏移到其他地方那這個我們藉由營區的巡管"},{"start":8052.643,"end":8078.978,"text":"還有定時的跟他電話通聯就是說比如說對方是什麼我們就每天的這個聯繫請問你看一下你的監視鏡頭目前是不是正常大概會這樣那再加上他們來巡檢的時候會智慧隱屈我們會再去跟他做一個勸那最後一個就是說這些東西如果他是他如果是基於公眾利益所要公開的那是沒有問題但是如果是不能公開的我們會提醒對方在這個"},{"start":8080.279,"end":8082.882,"text":"密碼設定上面要符合安全需求以上報告"},{"start":8098.229,"end":8106.715,"text":"我相信有一些數字可能會是機密性的問題那本席想要求的是說國防部能夠在一個時間內徹底的清查然後確認所有在軍事要塞或是營區附近的這些公部門的監視器也都是認證過不是來對準我們的營區門口或是沒有安全疑慮這樣可以嗎"},{"start":8124.246,"end":8145.947,"text":"好是我們來來來進行好謝謝林祖英委員部長參謀長請回下一位委員訊答之前我先宣告一件事情目前有收到臨時提案兩案這兩案是本席提的我歡迎跨黨派大家都來連署那這個待會我們本委員會"},{"start":8147.568,"end":8171.403,"text":"陳冠廷委員尋答結束後我們再進行處理那處理完畢屆時休息5分鐘我們現在進行尋答委員是洪森漢委員他搞不好不叫你請顧部長"},{"start":8178.559,"end":8191.853,"text":"市長好,我們本週一的中國聯合力艦2024B的軍演當然我想大家這幾天都討論很多,但我們看到一個狀況"},{"start":8193.837,"end":8216.389,"text":"在中國的一個媒體這個鳳凰衛視他刊登了一則新聞在這新聞上面他直接在地圖上面標出了我們這雄風機動發動車的部署的位置其中還寫出包括海豐四中隊甚至還有部署在淡水跟花蓮的地址然後甚至包括了經緯度"},{"start":8218.581,"end":8236.528,"text":"部長你知道為什麼這個媒體可以得到這些部署位置的地址跟座標嗎?經緯度座標我想就這些我們的陣地的這個位置透過相關的位照應該就是可以取得吧"},{"start":8237.389,"end":8265.349,"text":"那但是我並不知道鳳凰衛視本身到底是怎麼取得的不然這個新聞上面是這樣寫他說這是中國的網友那他結合了包括青年日報上面的照片也包括結合民眾拍攝的照片還有網路上面的街景的照片那他去辨識出這個相關的路標海堤建築物那透過這個方式去反向去找到"},{"start":8266.294,"end":8266.494,"text":"國防部長顧立雄"},{"start":8290.12,"end":8315.154,"text":"其實這等於是曝露我們其實一些應處相關的作為部長你覺得如果中國網友就能這樣做那你覺得解放軍做不做得到跟委員報告我想解放軍當然可以照到我們固定的陣地位置那現在就是說最重要的是在於一旦有任何狀況的時候我們的機動的戰術的位置這個部分要讓這個"},{"start":8317.715,"end":8345.656,"text":"解放軍不能夠察覺所以機動的戰術位置是一個重要的一個事項而且這樣的一個機動戰術的位置應該不會是只有一個不然我同意 比方說以海豐大隊來說它其實某部分它其實成軍的目的其實就是要讓解放軍難以捉摸那用機動式或機動的方式這些反艦的飛彈去嚇阻"},{"start":8347.866,"end":8363.172,"text":"但是如果在每次的演習都能夠用類似的方式去暴露出海中大隊部署的位置其實他反覆可以操作個兩三次他大概就可以摸索出你部署的模式跟邏輯"},{"start":8364.565,"end":8392.688,"text":"來﹖"},{"start":8393.227,"end":8417.318,"text":"委員好我是海軍參謀長那我們整個地面的一個機動雷達還有機動的飛彈的車主他都有他的機動路線以及戰術位置的選刊那我們在每次在做這些因應的這個反應的這些這些他的認知作戰的部分我們也會做一些必要的演練跟訓練那這些部分我們都有一個比較"},{"start":8418.438,"end":8436.134,"text":"緊密的計算包含了訓擊管理就是我怎麼樣能夠減少通信跟減少暴露的程度那後面我們也會針對這個怎麼樣演訓跟演練機動路線的時候不把這一個跟作戰安全的部分要做一個調整這我們也在做一個比較必要的質疑"},{"start":8436.254,"end":8436.434,"text":"主席"},{"start":8453.567,"end":8480.643,"text":"那這部分還是希望國防部再帶回去對 洪委員指教的是所以現在信機管理這件事情是我們重要的一個演練的一個項目之一那確實是要讓這個你剛剛講了說他直接用推演可以推演到你的戰術位置的話那這個部分就會暴露那所以我們要提高存活力的話我們就做好我們的信機管理"},{"start":8481.363,"end":8505.359,"text":"這部分再麻煩我覺得部長再帶回去那看還有沒有什麼更強化的應處的措施那接下來部長我還想跟你再討論的事情是我們接下來會恢復一年義務役的問題那當然大家知道說恢復一年義務役的工作其實當然是強化我們整體的防衛嚇阻的力量我們再做一點推算現在大家都知道這個2005年出生以後的義男恢復一年的義務役"},{"start":8506.48,"end":8518.032,"text":"那這一批藝男在2027年的時候會滿22歲喔大概就是他們大專畢業的年紀喔那不然我們問了藝政司跟國防部他們預估這個2027年會新增3.5萬的這個"},{"start":8523.82,"end":8524.221,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":8537.625,"end":8560.522,"text":"那部長同時間可是我們也問了過去3年支援役軍官跟士官的結訓人數就學班跟就業班兩個加總起來的話每年結訓的平均人數也大概剛好差不多是3500人但這只能是滿足我剛才講這樣的需求所以部長我們現在問題想問的是說如果光靠支援役的這個軍士官的話"},{"start":8561.403,"end":8589.111,"text":"其實2027年恐怕是需要6500名推算起來需要6500名的捷訓的軍事官才能夠帶領現有的志願役跟新增的義務役不然就不容易發展不容易發揮戰力所以部長我這邊想問一下說其實針對目前新增的一年的義務役那我們打算怎麼來補足這個基層的軍事官你才有足夠能夠帶領這些義務役"},{"start":8591.313,"end":8610.608,"text":"人才人力不想我們接下來怎麼做我想義務役的在在這個接受義務役的期間是一段那麼退下來以後成為後備裡面力量的一環那這個整個基層的軍事觀的人力的補足這個部分的詳細的部分的事情"},{"start":8613.052,"end":8632.447,"text":"委員好,我是蓮怡市長。像跟委員報告,就是說目前我們每年,像以今年為例好了,113年,我們今年7月份,就是說我們不管是ROTC、官校正期班、各個班隊畢業的任少位的人數大概是3500人。"},{"start":8633.928,"end":8636.029,"text":"我再給你看下面一個資訊我們其實有找到2013年到2017年上一次EWE的資料"},{"start":8655.939,"end":8681.333,"text":"那其實義務役軍御官御士每年報考的人數其實5年大概800到8000人那這個錄取的比例是22%如果按照這個數據在推算的話2027年如果有要有3000名的義務役的御官御士如果你要用義務役的過去用義務役御官御士的話那我們其實需要有1.4萬人報考御官御士才能夠足夠"},{"start":8682.745,"end":8706.902,"text":"那2013年報考人數其實是最多當時報考是有8000人那當年22歲的男性是16萬人大家都知道我們接下來少子化的問題所以2027年如果需要1.4萬人報考的話當年度22歲的男性的人數大概下降到10萬人大概"},{"start":8707.952,"end":8708.413,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":8726.26,"end":8746.452,"text":"那我們現在打算怎麼做啊?兩個因素,我們第一個,我們一年增加帶領的人要變多第二個,又遇到少子化,人又變少這兩個多重因素之下,假設我要把報考的人數,比例原本從5%拉到14%等於要提高3倍喔"},{"start":8747.725,"end":8775.825,"text":"跟委員報告我們會依據當時的編憲比的狀況比如說我現在後備部隊的組織編裝一直在調整換句話講我少的排長會少很多那我們會逐年地來檢討到116年御官跟御士到底要多少人我們會把缺員的部分全部把它算出來然後再去是啦照理來說這現在就可以算出來了嘛對但是我們不可能到116年才準備這件事情嘛"},{"start":8776.84,"end":8796.625,"text":"我一定是現在就要把五年以後三年後的狀況給推算出來所以我現在在三四年前我就要做什麼樣子的準備嗎我要怎麼樣來提高吸引異難或來報考的比例我們這樣算起來是要增加三倍喔報考的比率要增加三倍"},{"start":8797.932,"end":8824.813,"text":"那我現在就要準備了,所以你不能等到那時候再算了沒有問題,這個數據我們都會去把它算出來然後去,最主要就是說因為他就算116年畢業之後並不是每個人都會來考預官他可能讀研究所,他可能到國外去讀市長我現在的問題,我的時間快到了但我要問的事情是說如果我們現在就能對2027年的狀況做出預估的話假設報考的比率要提高三倍"},{"start":8826.914,"end":8842.466,"text":"為了提高3倍,我們現在做了什麼樣子的準備跟規劃去吸引這些藝男到2027的時候願意用3倍的比例來去報考一日一日的藝術藝觀我現在的問題是這個跟委員報告,我們一個月之內跟到委員辦公室來把報告清除"},{"start":8846.45,"end":8856.712,"text":"包括數字推估清楚跟應處的作為規劃清楚好不好可以嗎是是好謝謝謝謝紅三二委員部長各位請回接下來進行詢答委員林益君委員"},{"start":8874.222,"end":8878.225,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國防部長顧部長部長請部長早 部長你知道我們國軍官兵給你取了一個綽號你知道是什麼嗎你不曉得喔 不知道"},{"start":8902.657,"end":8926.88,"text":"他們都叫你福利雄其實那個綽號從某方面來講其實是肯定你對軍中的福利制度的改革所以今天本席想要跟部長討論一下我們不需要花太多錢但絕對可以讓官兵很有感的福利的改革部長你知道現在歐美等很多先進的國家的軍隊他們的士兵的戰鬥各裝都是可以自行選購的嗎"},{"start":8929.602,"end":8939.768,"text":"這個戰鬥各裝開放的自行選購其實一直是國軍官兵的心聲上個會期本席也是多次的質詢就是希望能夠替我們國軍官兵爭取開放各裝的自購甚至我們國內有某些單位也有"},{"start":8956.818,"end":8957.438,"text":"請問部長你清楚美軍的各裝制購的規定嗎?"},{"start":8985.879,"end":9012.438,"text":"我想有關美軍的這個部分的各方之口是不是有請沒關係沒關係我跟部長稍微簡短講一下好了因為時間也有限我到美國國會外交的時候曾經詢問過美軍的現役的官兵他們的做法就是像抗彈板跟抗彈頭盔這樣攸關士兵生命安全的裝備都是要公發的"},{"start":9013.098,"end":9015.218,"text":"現在就是說我們就防護頭盔、抗彈板跟戰鬥背心這三項"},{"start":9042.324,"end":9046.627,"text":"這三項是屬於安全防禦而且是重複使用的安全防禦品項就這個部分是不開放自購的"},{"start":9062.739,"end":9084.726,"text":"那其他的這個部分呢包括有一些因為上次開會的時候也有討論到我想詳細的這個就是個別的品項的部分是不是後持續好現在我先講一下就是國軍功發其實也不是不好啦我剛剛講的情況也不是不好就像部長說的嘛有的是可以有的是不行嘛但是像我們軍備局做的T-91步槍這個大家都是覺得非常優秀的軍品啊但自製的裝備的缺點"},{"start":9091.448,"end":9091.468,"text":"：文貴議員"},{"start":9108.806,"end":9118.62,"text":"然後我們來訪觀來看軍人都是在最嚴苛的環境下在作戰那部長是不是可以同意在不影響戰力的前提下盡量讓他們可以選擇自己最適應的裝備開放各裝制構呢"},{"start":9124.431,"end":9124.611,"text":"主席"},{"start":9155.252,"end":9182.344,"text":"那15項可以書面來我看一下嗎?但沒有問題沒有問題還有一點想要提醒一下的就是說像海軍左營站的有很多不錯的品項讓官軍可以放購但是有時候會不小心採購到中國的品牌因為我發現像現在有一個Baladion就是原本是法國品牌經典的軍靴的品牌但是在2019年的時候已經被中國的特部國際收購"},{"start":9184.005,"end":9204.032,"text":"所以之後是不是要注意一下不要去選到中國的品牌還有其實當然我剛才講這個不是責怪海軍的意思因為我覺得他們很努力的幫官兵在開發新的品項其實這是非常值得鼓勵的相對以來陸軍這方面真的要加油再幫官兵要換一些新換購一些比較新的可能要跟海軍一下學習然後請部長回去關心一下陸軍官兵的福利好嗎"},{"start":9213.841,"end":9226.116,"text":"福利站裏面他們所承受的這些官兵可以自購的這些品項的東西我們一定在嚴格的在審視一下他們的標準不要有紅色產牌是好謝謝"},{"start":9230.81,"end":9241.921,"text":"有關我們跟美國採購66架F16的問題,究竟今年底之前是不是就會開始交機,然後會交給台灣多少架呢?"},{"start":9243.985,"end":9245.507,"text":"所以還不曉得說有多少架今年會交機嗎?"},{"start":9261.184,"end":9271.156,"text":"今年的話按照我們的期盼就是說他有一架會出來然後之後這個測試沒有問題之後他現在事實上這個組裝線上面也加開這個產線然後來進行加快這個組裝的這個這個這個"},{"start":9281.454,"end":9283.316,"text":"所以是2026年12月之前就會交付完畢?"},{"start":9306.058,"end":9317.967,"text":"那要是否表示我們在2026年底前除了漢翔公司做完性能提升的141架F16之外再加上新造的66架那等於未來台灣就擁有205架的F16戰機呢?"},{"start":9324.749,"end":9339.819,"text":"根據這個數量來表示,未來台灣將會除了美國之外,F16是數量最多的國家。那未來我們F16機隊就是有完整的防空、制海還有打擊的能力,會是我們台海防衛作戰最重要的主力戰機對吧?是"},{"start":9342.466,"end":9342.526,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9361.855,"end":9375.09,"text":"依照部班的座艙比的話,飛機座艙與飛行人員的比例,1.5的標準來算,可能未來還要多出114位飛行人員的需求,這樣算應該是沒有問題吧?"},{"start":9376.952,"end":9387.025,"text":"是,所以我們現在已經依照我們現在要接裝的這個需求已經進行了相關的這個編組的調整,然後飛行員的這個訓練都有預先規劃,所以應該是沒有問題的"},{"start":9393.092,"end":9413.938,"text":"所以部長的意思是說除了飛行員之外部長也知道所謂空戰出英雄地面一半工所以機工啊航管啊彈藥啊等等地面需要的人力請問空軍有沒有算過未來我們第7年對換裝F16會產生多少人力的需求然後未來這些人力有沒有辦法滿足呢"},{"start":9414.678,"end":9431.398,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,這個空軍參謀長向您報告,扣除花蓮跟現有的嘉義基地現有的以外,第三個臺東我們區分了三個階段,在去年底還有明年跟後年分三個階段都有妥勝的規劃,在這邊向委員報告。"},{"start":9436.07,"end":9458.424,"text":"也就是說它分成三階段就這個整個的聯隊所需要的相關的這些飛行員還有這些後勤的這些地面後勤維修這些能力都已經做好相關的規劃這樣子這應該是就這個飛行員的部分應該還有後勤維保的部分應該的能力部分應該是沒有問題都預先已經規劃了"},{"start":9459.724,"end":9482.091,"text":"現在如果說沒有問題的話其實我們台灣的戰鬥機其實數量非常多而且甚至比日本還多嘛所以還是建議部長在規劃下一代的戰機的時候能夠用更少的人力來達到更高的目標因為我們可以把節省下來的人力成本轉移到投資和維持部隊的戰力上面像F35這種第5代的戰機就應該是我們努力爭取的目標"},{"start":9486.132,"end":9499.953,"text":"然後最後我還是希望國防部面對台灣未來的少子化的問題應該要超前部署因應然後讓空軍下一代的主力戰機能前瞻10年到20年才是真正能夠維護台海的安全"},{"start":9501.081,"end":9501.101,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員執導。"},{"start":9539.861,"end":9566.955,"text":"你好,我們請部長來,部長請是,政委部長好部長請問這一次的黃台軍演你認為跟幾次先前的這種大型的軍演有什麼不同是他們主要的意圖是在封鎖、在拒組、在外島奪取、在登陸作戰還是在網路攻擊、測試反應還是以上皆是"},{"start":9568.134,"end":9581.747,"text":"我想他的本來過去相關的一些包括聯合戰備軍型本來就有一些您剛提到類似的操演的科目那現在這一次當然是首次以這個艦載機這個就遼寧號的艦載機進入我們的東部空域"},{"start":9586.271,"end":9587.092,"text":"主要是壓在這個東邊的這個部分"},{"start":9602.63,"end":9617.503,"text":"今年的話它就是從擴及到台海的周邊還有外島地區另外當然增加萬噸的這個海警的船在這個東邊那所以整個目的看起來應該就是要將台海內水化台灣內"},{"start":9618.724,"end":9634.106,"text":"內政話另外他演訓這一次是只有一天不過他配合輿論等認知工行的手段然後企圖改這個加大這個威懾力度來影響我們的民心士氣我想這幾點大概應該是可以觀察出來"},{"start":9635.063,"end":9656.963,"text":"那部長你覺得在這幾次軍演從2022年之後然後到聯合歷屆AB之後你覺得他的這個能力我們不講意圖就在講他們經過多次的這種環島的演訓之後他們能力有沒有提高整體的協調的能力還有跨軍種協調的能力你覺得透過這樣的演練中共的這些軍演之後他的能力有沒有提高"},{"start":9657.788,"end":9677.095,"text":"操演跟委員報告這個聯合行動的這個能力的這個評估我們認為中國還是有很多要改進的因為操演是一回事真正實戰到時候只管通信是一回事因為操演是一種他"},{"start":9678.951,"end":9682.233,"text":"部長你覺得他們這些演練在對於國民來講他是不是想要創造我們民眾感受到不安這一個部分你覺得他們有沒有這個意圖"},{"start":9702.679,"end":9719.526,"text":"您是說對台灣嗎?對台灣當然是有施壓的這種味道因為這樣的軍事恫嚇跟這個灰色地帶的洗澡我想這已經是他們現在一貫都常在做的一件事情但是你覺得民眾有感受到不安嗎?"},{"start":9721.089,"end":9748.026,"text":"民眾我覺得從國防部立場民眾應該要警惕這樣的敵情嚴峻我認為中共在平板的多次環台軍演甚至是夜間操練他希望把這個軍演常態化之後反而不是要讓我們民眾感到不安他的目的可能是讓我們民眾感到麻木讓我們民眾習慣這樣子的演練認為說這樣的演練不會對我們的生活造成影響"},{"start":9748.746,"end":9777.634,"text":"那我們的股市還是繼續漲我們的經濟還是繼續在維持蓬勃的發展我認為這都是好事我也認為我們國家的這個應對是非常的妥適的但是我認為民眾應對這樣子的必須要有風險意識所以等一下我也會請教這個針對這個民眾的部分是不是已經習慣中國的威脅而生活照常如果是這樣是民眾的意識風險意識不夠的話有什麼是國防部未來可以需要來去協助的"},{"start":9778.314,"end":9806.49,"text":"我們要如何做好這樣的民防訓練當我們沒有這樣的意識我們就沒有這樣子的動作委員好我是秦次市次長那針對剛剛委員所提問的問題我們在前幾位委員的回答群裡面也回答到這個是一個我們把它歸類成一個複合式的灰色地帶的操作那這裡面有幾個重點包含了我們所講的欺騙"},{"start":9807.811,"end":9831.38,"text":"當然我們所講的欺騙裡面他用的手段裡面包含剛剛委員所提醒到的降低一般民眾百姓對這樣子還台軍援會影響到一般老百姓他們生活的這樣子的壓迫感但其實灰色地帶裡面其中有一個特性就是溫水煮青蛙他希望民眾來習慣這樣子的好像只是針對國軍的這個部分"},{"start":9834.082,"end":9849.979,"text":"所造成的壓力並不會改變民眾的日常生活我想這些都是我們必須要用跨域的手段配合其他部會共同來努力提高我們國人針對他們這樣軍演所造成的對我們的影響"},{"start":9850.86,"end":9871.348,"text":"我必須強調我們比方我們講以色列好了他們不是不知道風險他們不會把戰爭去敏感化所以在每一個作用力的時候就是當每次在這個敵對勢力發動攻擊的時候或者是洋裝發動攻擊的時候他們都會有相應的動作所以不是坐在這邊說我們不會發生任何事情反正他們也不敢"},{"start":9872.068,"end":9872.348,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9894.205,"end":9917.381,"text":"聯合統合這些所有資訊類似像以色列的後方司令部的一個叫做homefront Command的這個應用程式一樣結合這些能力以色列的這個Homefront APP它是可以即時把安全警報發布官方指示還有行動建議也就是說我們不是只有知道OK有些事情發生而是知道有事情發生之後我們該怎麼做"},{"start":9918.041,"end":9942.393,"text":"而且並不是來自民間的這些NGO等等來自於官方的國家的這樣才有公信力所以說依照用戶的位置還可以提出個人的警報傳達官方正式的訊息這時候避免戰爭時期或者是衝突時期的錯假亂訊息我認為這是非常重要現在他們還可以直接應用到他們的電視上面所以等於是跨世代不是只有年輕的朋友們"},{"start":9942.853,"end":9943.013,"text":"提到隔離與封鎖"},{"start":9971.678,"end":9971.698,"text":"傳訊息："},{"start":9990.765,"end":10020.187,"text":"委員好有關於隔離跟封鎖這兩個不同的態樣或者是有什麼相似之處這個部分我們在國防部裡面包括我們法律司跟我們情事室整個國防部針對這兩個特別的應該講說是他們在操作上面會有什麼樣的現象那我們國防部要怎麼樣的應處針對這個部分其實我們已經在已經進行了一段時間那就法律上面的界定是不是"},{"start":10022.549,"end":10046.114,"text":"委員好 我是法律司司長封鎖原則上它是國家對國家隔離是從國際法上後面再發展出來的一個等於是概念式的一個用語那在實際上面它是會有一些區別而且執行封鎖跟執行隔離它執行的人也會有一點不一樣那細部的話我們看是不是再跟委員做一個說明"},{"start":10046.314,"end":10075.52,"text":"上次是有給我們針對封鎖的解釋就是透過軍事手段來圍困對手跟他的這個運輸補給但是在於隔離的部分我這個部分可能就是灰色地帶我看CSS在6月的時候有出相關的討論他是說在透過海上交通的執勤執法那這個部分我是希望說可不可以給我們相關的法律上面或者是你的相關的報告給我們因為我們只接收到封鎖的部分但是在還沒有進入黑色地帶在灰色地帶的時候隔離的部分我們該怎麼樣應處"},{"start":10076.22,"end":10076.26,"text":"封鎖與隔離"},{"start":10091.434,"end":10111.659,"text":"國家對國家之間的一個概念,如果他真正的實施這個所謂的封鎖的話,那以現在這一次來講的話,那他就要宣布禁航區那相關的這些船艦或者是載空機要經過的話,都要經過他的許可,像這樣子的一個全面性的封鎖是形同宣告這個戰爭"},{"start":10113.88,"end":10139.464,"text":"那這樣子的一個舉動那這個就會進入到一個不只是影響台灣甚至影響到整個國際那隔離的這個部分他就會進行一個比較有限度的一個一個一個一個措施那比如說他是用執法的一個作為然後來用海警船的這個作為來進行相關的一些有限度的一些居宿然後或者是登檢的這樣子的一個作為"},{"start":10140.084,"end":10162.93,"text":"謝謝部長再麻煩國防部可以給我們相關的我們的反制的做法那最後再問一題謝謝趙偉那就是我們已經接到很多不管是各國的智庫或者是甚至各國的政要都提到說希望我們提升國防預算來展現防衛決心但是我想請教就是我們提升國防預算重點不是提升而已而是要構置什麼要防禦什麼要有什麼樣的能力要維持什麼樣的能力"},{"start":10163.49,"end":10191.678,"text":"那這一次的中東局勢我們來看到說這個伊朗以色列還有這些他的這些那他不斷的在對以色列直接發動攻襲這次好像說最近一次是發動130枚飛彈那去瞄準三個軍事基地但是大部分的這個飛彈都被攔截起來那還有公民的冷靜還有遵循安全的指引包含我們剛剛提到的這些應用的方式沒有什麼樣死亡的案例我想請教這個部長現在我們的防空的系統有沒有辦法"},{"start":10192.318,"end":10192.338,"text":"韓國柱議員"},{"start":10211.958,"end":10212.138,"text":"國防部廚備部長"},{"start":10227.995,"end":10228.235,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10247.02,"end":10263.347,"text":"那在這個相關應對他的這個相關不管幾周波的這個火力打擊的部分我們要如何能夠保存然後來進行反制這也是在研討範圍之內但是因為這個相關具體的作為試射機敏可能不是以在這裡公開好謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員部長請回"},{"start":10267.348,"end":10270.03,"text":"我們接下來處理臨時提案總共有兩個提案請醫生員宣讀第一案"},{"start":10284.4,"end":10296.114,"text":"提案 因應高齡化社會整體護理人力需求增加,男性護理人員服兵役期間需中斷其護理專業工作,退伍後重返職場亦需時間適應醫療環境,建議具護理師鎮造藝能,優先分發國軍醫院服役。"},{"start":10301.661,"end":10324.584,"text":"．除增加國軍醫院護理人力．亦然服役期間．亦可持續精進護理專業技術．甚或志願留任國軍醫院服務．現請國防部於兩個月內提出研議方案．提報立法院外交及國防委員會．提案人委員王定宇．羅美玲．陳永康．沈博洋．林楚英．洪生翰．陳冠廷．林義軍等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":10325.792,"end":10342.057,"text":"本席先做臨時提案的概要說明也謝謝我們本委員會全部各黨派都有參與聯署這是一個第一個適材適用我也感謝國防部我印象是在邱國正部長的任內我們有提過醫科的學生來當兵去當步槍兵"},{"start":10343.357,"end":10367.709,"text":"讓費了啦不是浪費他當醫生而是我們部隊需要人才的訓練我就不用另外再訓練EMT、EMT-1、EMT-2、EMT-J嘛那護理人員也一樣因為我後來去查了我們現在護理學校護理系畢業的男性人數其實已經是數千人了所以在服役期間他的專長就是護理"},{"start":10369.41,"end":10396.784,"text":"事材適用,縮減我們的訓練的成本也提高他的服役時期的這個工作表現的效能退伍以後更可以建構全民防衛的韌性所以以上這是本席提案的原因希望能夠讓護理這個政兆的藝男可以根據他這樣專長優先分發在軍醫單位服役我不知道現場委員有沒有其他意見那主管機關有沒有意見"},{"start":10398.586,"end":10423.858,"text":"報告召委原例由我衰月館來回答這個臨時提案依據剛剛委員會提出的這個臨時提案我們初步評估14所國軍的軍醫院的能量是具有可行性的所以這個我們不做文字上的修正報告秉按照國防部文字修正後那照案通過我們給你兩個月時間研議是是謝謝召委好謝謝常事好第二案請宣讀"},{"start":10425.336,"end":10451.427,"text":"第二案職業軍人雖屬廣義公務員為工作屬性與公務員有本質上不同且受陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例等相關法規規範有限階限年退伍的規定由於職業軍人退伍年齡多為青壯年國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會為協助媒合磨合退伍跑者投入社會順利銜接第二職案積極建制退儲役官兵"},{"start":10452.13,"end":10466.189,"text":"居民專長轉嫌作業系統﹐其能協助退伍袍折發揮最大轉職效益﹐原指國防部公餘進修政策﹐也應與時俱進﹐適時轉型不應再以補助學習經費為前提宣導﹐"},{"start":10467.099,"end":10492.452,"text":"公讀與職、業務有關學位或技術證照為主,限制進修空間,鼓勵所屬官兵不論與職、業務有無關聯性或有無補助,均應妥善利用公餘時間積極學習進修,且官兵個人可將公餘進修所獲得之學位、證照、檢定證明等學習成果向人事部門申請核准登載於兵籍資料並確實完成電子兵支線傳。"},{"start":10495.051,"end":10524.371,"text":"必立官兵退伍後,國防部可將電子兵資提供國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會運用,協助退儲役官兵媒合專長順利就業,其能無縫接軌第二職而為免避免全面開放工與進修每一招濫用,有關工與進修學習經費補助及與職業務有無關聯之人事運用,認定人因相關規定辦理上述與職業務有無關聯之學位證照檢定證明等"},{"start":10525.266,"end":10534.582,"text":"僅登載於兵籍資料作為退伍後媒合就業之運用﹐不得作為現役期間派職、競任等人事運用之依據﹐請國防部於2個月內將國軍軍職人員工與進修實施規定﹐"},{"start":10540.034,"end":10560.971,"text":"及陸海空軍兵籍資料管理及查證作業規定相關條文提出修正提報立法院外交及國防委員會並積極向所屬官兵宣導將此前所獲得之學位證照檢定證明等資料競速申請登載於兵籍資料含電子兵資必立將現役及退伍兩階段完成"},{"start":10561.998,"end":10573.487,"text":"銜接落實全職癌規劃加會全體官兵提案人委員王定宇羅美玲沈伯陽洪生翰林楚英陳冠廷林益君等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":10574.5,"end":10601.353,"text":"好謝謝本席做提案概要說明首先也感謝這個是我們本委員會跨黨派也都連署提案那概要說明第一個這個是由於退府會有一個退廚藝官兵專長訓練的轉弦作業然後我們這邊有電子兵資的資料所以呢我們在退伍前我們所有的職業軍人在退伍的時候怎麼樣去銜接第二村繼續就業"},{"start":10602.333,"end":10620.746,"text":"因為職業軍人退役的時候多數都還相當年輕那我們希望現有的規定是要按照他的這個職業務有關他才會列他的兵資那我們是希望他非有關的部分可以擴大他學習"},{"start":10621.747,"end":10649.218,"text":"的他自己在利用公餘來學習那學習之後他取得證照取得相關專長之後呢我們相關單位應該要把他列入電子賓資現傳的內容但是為了避免我們補助款或者是晉升派任的困擾我這邊提案最後像還特別提到我們在補助的審查與否按照現有規定他自己想要多學比方他是裝甲兵他想要學烹飪"},{"start":10650.498,"end":10668.925,"text":"學出役那跟現有的業務專長不同但他可以去學也可以拿到證照我們也把他納入兵資系統裡面那方便退府會後面銜接的訓練跟第二專長的派任這樣才不會我在部隊學的軍事專長我到民間沒辦法用嘛"},{"start":10669.625,"end":10681.036,"text":"那另外在派任、晉升這個東西都遵照原規定避免影響我們現有的體制所以這是我們提案的暗游那不知道我們在場本委員或委員有沒有意見"},{"start":10682.182,"end":10682.943,"text":"委員會提的臨時提案有關於"},{"start":10700.202,"end":10720.303,"text":"登錄兵表還有進修的學習經費補助仍然維持與職務有關的避免美意遭到濫用以及派職進任軍事學資這些運用等等我們經審視之後我們按照委員會的這個臨時提議然後我們下去研修然後文字部分我們也不做修改"},{"start":10720.663,"end":10736.568,"text":"好所以這個兵籍資料線傳那個要跟要要照這個做法好我們以上兩個提案哈這個原則上照案通過但是我們文字修正授權給國防部路長室來做調整處理那我們現在休息5分鐘待會繼續進行詢答"},{"start":11116.197,"end":11133.972,"text":"謝謝賴委員、林委員、鍾委員的耐心我們恢復開會接下來進行詢答委員在進行之前本期在宣告因為各位剛才我們一開始宣告有的沒聽到因為禮拜四國防部都有軍談總統府的專案的會議所以待會十二點整由顧立雄部長"},{"start":11134.833,"end":11149.238,"text":"副總長執行官、權動署以及秦次次座記事要去參加那個會但是都會有代理人副部長會來代理但是在場的三位你們應該還是都問得到但我還是要宣告一下我們接下來請賴思寶委員進行詢答"},{"start":11160.042,"end":11164.224,"text":"謝謝主席有請國防部的顧部長來 部長請是 二位好部長好我看你今天早上已經公開宣布說青年服勤的同意書你要把它取消是不是協調不會取消"},{"start":11186.107,"end":11214.014,"text":"我的看法是當然這個我們還要跟教育部協調但是我的看法我已經表達我的看法我認為這樣子的同意說應該不需要因為我們真正的目的是在教育應該是在教育這個這個比如說這些學生他在重大災害的時候或有任何緊急狀況的時候他能夠這一個就這一個自救護救的這個能力來加以培養所以跟這個所謂的這個"},{"start":11215.234,"end":11235.26,"text":"要不要自願來所謂扶検這件事情,我不認為這個目的跟這個手段之間沒有平衡性,所以我想我們會後我再請錢董事再跟教育部來協調,是不是就這個部分就不需要說要來發這個扶検同意書"},{"start":11238.041,"end":11252.25,"text":"你這個一講之後啊好像反映社會反映的不錯其實啊你這是假講的 都是假啦因為全動法裡面第三章叫動員準備原來叫全民防衛動員準備法後來跟另外一個加起來叫全動法全動法裡面第15條的第一項第一款裡面就講得非常清楚"},{"start":11265.481,"end":11269.409,"text":"並對學校青年動員扶擒"},{"start":11276.124,"end":11276.605,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11295.988,"end":11296.208,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告業務概況"},{"start":11326.084,"end":11327.665,"text":"事情就踩到底啊你去修法把這個拿掉把這個並對學校青年動員服勤拿掉這樣才大家知道你的決心我給你個數字台灣的年輕人中國民調七成"},{"start":11348.638,"end":11376.167,"text":"反對三戰場即便是後勤也反對他們說這打仗是專業的人去打仗志願役專業的人去打仗年輕人不要三張城的即便後援他也不要的齊成齊成所以你要不要我就問你這個你要不要修法把這句話拿掉並對學校青年動員扶勤就把它拿掉釜底抽薪可以嗎"},{"start":11377.054,"end":11395.446,"text":"跟委員報告兩點,第一點就是說我想青年的這個部分絕對不會從事軍事情務或者軍事情動,這一點是確定的那這個所謂青年動員胡情的這個部分我剛已經講了,我認為重點應該著重放在這個"},{"start":11398.128,"end":11423.917,"text":"有任何災難或緊急狀況發生的時候發揮這個能夠協助校園安全然後自救救人的一個功能我想這個部分我們會會後再來跟教育部做協調就這個青年動員的服刑的規劃來如何你沒有回答我問題你要不要把這句話拿掉就好啦這句話尬掉就好啦第二點權動法這個要如何進行修正我們正在進行檢討當中可以列入考慮嗎可以列入考慮把這拿掉嗎"},{"start":11427.616,"end":11436.663,"text":"我們來進行跟因為我們這個要跟跨部會來做一個協調的動作所以我們會跟跨部會來進行演繹你不修我來修我把這畫掉好不好來這個才符合你今天所做的這些事情啦也才符合社會期待家長們怕孩子上戰場即便是後援的一樣台灣這麼小一打仗沒有什麼前線後方啦我們再看下一個喔"},{"start":11454.656,"end":11474.595,"text":"你喊停說第5代的國造的ADF戰機說因為發動機啊engine啊你做不出來所以呢就不要連研發都不要啊中科院的院長是不是來一下啊這個講一下好不好講完講完就可以了"},{"start":11477.597,"end":11491.503,"text":"委員那個因為投資金額相當龐大在沒有確定獲得有效的技術協助之前我們暫停這樣子的研發你這個打臉蔡英文前總統打臉賴清德的國機國造你只有討好顧部長討好美鋒而已啊這個東西連做研發都不可以研發都不可以研究跨門也不可以 什麼意思啊"},{"start":11503.588,"end":11504.688,"text":"我看不是喔 我看是美方叫你不要研發"},{"start":11531.914,"end":11532.435,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":11563.051,"end":11583.906,"text":"吳部長本期針對少子化趨勢下的國軍人才招募與留任的困境來跟您做個討論我做現況的分析以及在去年四月士兵不似乎的原因也跟您做個討論以及人口結構趨勢變化那包括我們軍校跟民間企業產權合作的薪酬比較"},{"start":11584.747,"end":11612.081,"text":"那最後本期有一些具體建議也要請部長您看能不能有一些具體的回應好現況的分析來講我們是人口出生率長期下降國軍也受到少子化的趨勢跟社會企業在徵才競爭人才及組織編制的調整這也就是您上任之後在做的可徵召的是您男性人數逐年的減少這對我們要維持軍隊所需的人力規模造成很大的挑戰"},{"start":11614.329,"end":11631.407,"text":"國軍兵力結構其實是採自願役跟義務役雙軌並行當然自願役才是部隊的戰力主幹但是呢受到社會少子化及就業市場的競爭人才等因素影響所以我們衝擊的招募跟留營從109年起我們整體自願"},{"start":11635.171,"end":11635.611,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11657.543,"end":11672.661,"text":"那再看我們內政部疫情師的可爭剛才看的是我們真的邊縣的部分我們來看可爭的意難有沒有在減少在110年起出現逐年下降在去年的時候才有"},{"start":11672.961,"end":11696.971,"text":"：議員"},{"start":11703.974,"end":11718.222,"text":"我自願士兵的薪資是36000多元,這相差無幾,但是只要進入到我們軍中這個門,他就是失去自由,而且是24小時的待命,你覺得這樣的薪資可以留得下人嗎?"},{"start":11719.142,"end":11735.679,"text":"好我們再來看軍校跟民間企業的薪酬我就以北部地區就好以日月光跟這些我們的學校我就以台灣山陽跟靈敏技術學院在大學內的他如果在在學大學當中的實習補助是2萬2"},{"start":11737.501,"end":11766.235,"text":"如果呢是在畢業薪資呢是3萬9好這樣的比較我軍費生我軍費生的每月生活1萬6千1百多塊人家在大學的實習補助是2萬2然後呢這個畢業後的薪資雖然每個月我們軍校生可以達到5萬但是看似呢是高於民間但是以我們的軍情的勤務及特性我們根本沒有具什麼優因因為我是24小時的待命跟失去自由的"},{"start":11766.895,"end":11794.998,"text":"好這邊具體建議其實就這個議題我是肯定顧部長其實你上來之後其實是有重視到我們在留任軍人留才的部分您是有重視到但是本期一定要再給你一個一個給力啊所以是建議調整軍人的薪資待遇與軍校學生的生活津貼我相信一定能夠提升我們自願意的招募成效跟從軍意願第二個針對特殊崗位"},{"start":11796.419,"end":11812.052,"text":"戰訓任務一定要提高相對的專項津貼比如戰備執勤的津貼演訓津貼海外派選津貼等第三個這也過去戴華本席在這邊所執勤的就是"},{"start":11812.873,"end":11813.634,"text":"部長你怎麼看"},{"start":11840.411,"end":11859.539,"text":"跟委員報告,您剛剛提的三點建議正是我在部內的這個會議討論的方向是完全符合的,因為我已經開了兩次還是三次以上的會議了,那我現在請人次次,就是說部長你直接回答我,那你什麼時候做定案了,你不能一直討論啊"},{"start":11862,"end":11878.753,"text":"這個對於你在招募當中,現在大家都在爭財耶,你要4年後再決定嗎?還是在黃金10年再決定呢?還是在繼續研議當中呢?當然不會這你才能夠穩固我的軍力之需求啊,我真沒有人要當兵了"},{"start":11879.634,"end":11883.035,"text":"來 請再要回答你要只要給我講個時間就好 部長 半年嗎 三個月嗎 你總是要個定案啊"},{"start":11902.174,"end":11922.262,"text":"不用,我想我們在一個月以內我會提出一些方案出來好,這個非常好,我想所有有意從軍的所有的子弟就會看到說我一個月後就很明確知道說我從軍我的待遇是如何以及配合我們相關像昭緯所提的我們未來的一些教育能夠符合社會的趨勢好,就一個月我們就來期待,謝謝部長"},{"start":11930.014,"end":11931.935,"text":"接下來進行巡禮委員 鍾嘉斌委員再請"},{"start":11963.14,"end":11973.943,"text":"我請三位次長怎麼跑出四位我剛請了三位怎麼跑出了四位資源規劃師還有人事參謀次長還有訓練參謀次長抱歉抱歉你那個志願出來了我們是沒有意見"},{"start":11983.749,"end":12003.332,"text":"好 謝謝部長剛好承接著林黛化委員我在上週也問過您同樣的問題對不對就是國軍的人才招募以及他們的薪資待遇我的表現簡單招募短一期的志願役士官兵要知己知彼讓他知道自己的能耐你們要知道這個志願役的能耐"},{"start":12003.812,"end":12006.393,"text":"代孕衡量職業生涯週期﹑比照警消新訓入伍﹑什麼時候才能瞭解軍旅生活?"},{"start":12006.393,"end":12008.554,"text":"上週要去檢討新訓入伍是訓練次長,你有跟我們部長報告你們現在新訓的課程內容嗎?"},{"start":12030.237,"end":12056.243,"text":"我們那個新訓八個部長知不知道八個內容部長都知道部長來我們列出來了因為上週上週問題的時候第一週就是個人資料建立都是在課堂內填表認識軍法裝備訓練這樣通通都是室內課第二週開始基本體能開始要跑步才有手電投擲第三四週才有實彈射擊還有500障礙然後五到七週才會有怎麼樣行軍"},{"start":12057.999,"end":12085.522,"text":"戰機射擊還有第8週才會真的實戰的戰術行軍才抽籤嗎?這樣部長瞭解吼?是好你認為一個興訓入伍的人員他什麼時候大概知道自己有沒有能力來承擔軍旅生活?在第一週嗎?在課堂上你填表單嗎?還是完成了8週真正三天兩夜實戰行戰術行軍他才知道自己有沒有能力承受軍旅生涯的這樣的一個負荷你認為呢?哪一天比較好?"},{"start":12086.83,"end":12113.801,"text":"委員是認為我上次已經執行過希望在第8週不過我回去跟他們討論他們還是認為就是說我覺得我上週說服了你但是我覺得你們底下的人又跟你說要反過來了如果沒有到第8週你連這個兵適不適合當志願役的短役刑事官兵你都不見得掌握他第一週給你填表說我志願簽4年你要收嗎?汰除率那麼高"},{"start":12115.319,"end":12126.496,"text":"我跟您比較過了 如果你們是在這種部隊裡面招募的 興訊招募的 達成率超過百分之百但是汰除率呢 比跟社會青年招募來的汰除率更高 有沒有"},{"start":12127.554,"end":12147.054,"text":"報告委員我先跟委員解釋一下是是就是說我們在第二週做招募的工作的原因你們在第一週就招募了第一週第二週比較多的室內課就做招募是的講清楚啊我們在上個禮拜我們有眼線在裡面對上個禮拜委員跟我們講完之後我們召集各軍司令部來有研討過這個問題"},{"start":12149.076,"end":12175.087,"text":"但是最主要的問題在於說我今天不管第一週或第二週做完招募之後我要有六週的審查包含智力測驗包含到外面他的所有就醫的紀錄你的審查是審查他在入伍之前的事情但是他在部隊裡面的實測的訓練專長訓練如何這才是他能不能適應軍旅生活的關鍵不是嗎他如果三天兩夜的戰術訓練都做不到你要招募他嗎因為他第一週就簽了四年了"},{"start":12175.447,"end":12194.737,"text":"跟委員報告就是說他在第8週起議之前他都可以反悔也就是說在這個過程裡面他覺得他不適應所以你們意思說我們國軍招募不清只怕他反悔不怕我們反悔嗎他根本體能上不身負荷我們不會把他太除嗎等到他開始簽下去正式為他太除因為你們要達成招募率啊部長怎麼解釋"},{"start":12196.707,"end":12212.764,"text":"意思應該是說我們審查的期間我們也會你們是審查他入伍之前的外部資料不是審查他再訓期間的表現資料對是不是沒錯嘛在訓練的過程裡面他隨時可以認為說不適應因為他簽了他如果覺得後來受不了他才會離開嘛"},{"start":12214.265,"end":12232.634,"text":"但是你們要求一個18歲到20歲做這件事情跟你們部隊要招說這個兵適不適合來當兵你們有自己的專業判斷你們的判斷比他更成熟啊這個傢伙適不適合當兵能不能判斷應該是說他們應該是會在第8週確定的時候他之前應該還是可以決定不留名"},{"start":12237.176,"end":12238.757,"text":"所以您剛講的是一方面是我們的審查當然你們要審查啦那另外一方面是他的"},{"start":12262.478,"end":12277.97,"text":"他自願不想做了那是他的事情你們要不要留他因為你們現在目標管理每個部隊都有邊縣米的要求他只要招進來他達到目標了他就沒事了接下來這個兵一年兩年三年出了什麼事跟他無關了解嗎好下一個"},{"start":12281.018,"end":12301.434,"text":"好第二個我的那個待遇問題我上次有問過你們新加坡美國跟以色列的待遇為什麼我要說這個因為我們的兵啊志願役的短役期的不會超過10年32歲退伍但是我們的警察跟消防他們可以做到55到57歲退休同樣的起薪我們看下一張"},{"start":12302.435,"end":12326.929,"text":"我們志願役的二等兵是4萬1警察是5萬2消防是6萬2大概呢警察已經接近新加坡的水準消防還差美國的13萬很多以色列的10萬很多你要知道同樣的年齡進來他的職涯生涯這麼長你給他這個薪水跟職涯規劃只有10年青春啊職業運動選手是不是待遇很高為什麼因為他只有10年可以賣"},{"start":12327.79,"end":12327.81,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":12346.499,"end":12368.149,"text":"結論就是我剛剛也跟林大夫委員提到了我們現在對於基層的這個新制的自願役的短役及時官兵對我們現在一個月內提出順便報告可以嗎是好謝謝好謝謝宗嘉斌委員各位請回好接下來進行巡導委員馬文君委員什麼意思我"},{"start":12379.494,"end":12380.275,"text":"馬文君委員 總統府軍壇代理人"},{"start":12393.586,"end":12405.773,"text":"謝謝部長午安過去國軍有依國防組織跟兵力結構調整的政策就是依照營區整併還有三軍共住的原則有討論過"},{"start":12408.334,"end":12432.499,"text":"就是沒有運用計畫的營地列為空置營地來管理維護那還有一個部分就是老舊眷村拆除騰空以後他改列為空置的眷地維管的部分相關的空置營眷地曾經高達一萬多筆而且面積達到了一千多公頃"},{"start":12433.799,"end":12452.478,"text":"那這個部分其實有很多的單位都在覬覦我們國防部這些相關的土地那在這裡包括陳前總統在89年的時候都有示導過國防部提出三個期許還有三安政策部長你知道什麼是三安政策嗎"},{"start":12460.899,"end":12469.566,"text":"陳千總統之前提到的三安政策第一個就是讓部隊安全軍人安家還有軍眷安心這目前我們國軍還在推動嗎"},{"start":12473.25,"end":12474.891,"text":"委員好我是政務局局長持續的都在推動"},{"start":12503.53,"end":12528.389,"text":"國軍長期在推動的這個部分我們應該要怎麼樣來檢討因為首先的三安部隊安全我們可能就沒有好好的做到而且現在已經10月我剛剛講的4月的數據資料那另外就是國軍在114年預算原額大概是16749人已經住進軍人植物宿舍的只有7000多戶"},{"start":12530.643,"end":12558.149,"text":"在住用率上面它高達了99.69%就是我們所有提供出來的它幾乎都佔滿了可是具有職務官色的軍人卻只佔我們軍人數的4.7%所以其實我們的供需其實是差非常多的而且這4.7%大部分都是以軍官還有資深的士官為主所以持續在等候補的這些等待的人員"},{"start":12558.869,"end":12561.772,"text":"其實高達4000多人以上非常多的人在排那部長如果說我們剛剛提到要在募兵上面要有更好的成效"},{"start":12572.555,"end":12597.5,"text":"為什麼我們政府要推新清安為什麼要推社會住宅其實有一個安定的家我想這是非常重要的那像部長其實以你的資歷還有你的資產要購屋我想輕而易舉可是目前的房價真的非常貴所以官兵弟兄如果要安置家人安心工作真的是非常的辛苦所以本席辦公室也常常接到軍人陳情要調動的服務在我們的"},{"start":12600.48,"end":12623.339,"text":"陳情的案件比例上面是非常高的就是他想要調回自己的老家或者自己的故鄉因為父母還有子女老婆先生其實都是在那裡那這樣子的一個陳情調動這麼高的情況之下其實可以顯見在這個部分的需求在過去其實本席也曾經建議過其實我們應該運用我們現有的這些資產土地"},{"start":12627.862,"end":12627.982,"text":"部長怎麼看?"},{"start":12653.869,"end":12669.458,"text":"政策上是支持委員的講法,細節上稍微說明,簡單說明一下跟委員報告,那個植物宿舍我們會依照委員的一個指導,就是說針對這種生活機能好的部分我們會全力來爭取蓋這個植物宿舍,以上報告"},{"start":12669.758,"end":12674.682,"text":"好,因為我們剛剛提到了就是說你明明有土地那我們的銀產基金其實也都還有預算你在新南專案計畫在116年就要結束了我們希望可以儘速的去做一個通盤的一個檢討那因為美軍可以成為世界戰力強的部隊他除了他的武器精良、薪水很高以外很重要的就是他的福利非常好"},{"start":12696.178,"end":12699.399,"text":"所以他的福利零零總總加起來其實總共大概有140項尤其美軍的軍事官中期一生他都是有職務官設的如果住在營外他的房租補貼尤其是有眷有子女的還會再往上加所以在營區內也好或者營區外也好或者他們"},{"start":12716.507,"end":12723.473,"text":"整個一生的一些照顧其實都面面俱到那在這裡剛剛也提到說要去做一個通盤的檢討那在這裡我們還是再一次強調啦國防部應該照顧我們國軍弟兄尤其在現在我們木兵碰到這麼多的困難的情況之下怎麼樣讓我們軍人可以有更好的一個福利跟照顧讓他們無後顧之憂"},{"start":12742.709,"end":12765.487,"text":"新建這個植物觀塞我想其實是一個還不錯的一個誘因因為我們有地有錢然後又有需求那現在至少都有4000人排著在等所以就看我們有沒有心那就這個部分剛剛已經提到說要做檢討在這個部分是不是可以提出近期可以提出書面的說明報告"},{"start":12767.058,"end":12778.211,"text":"應該可以吧在兩週之內跟委員來做一個報告好 謝謝那另外部長也利用一點時間在這裡探討就是最近可能社會上紛紛擾擾大家非常關注"},{"start":12781.855,"end":12792.002,"text":"然後也很疑慮的一個部分在中東地區他持續爆發以哈戰爭的過程當中5月份曾經發生以色列對加薩醫院醫療設施進行攻擊而且還阻止病患他轉院的這個事件這個事件也引起當時正在瑞士日內瓦世衛大會上面超過至少30個國家共同譴責以色列"},{"start":12809.375,"end":12815.601,"text":"那以色列為什麼會被這些參加世衛大會的國家在會中譴責然後為什麼要攻擊加薩醫院相信他也有做出他的一個理由說明那以哈衝突大概8個月的時間加薩地區的醫院不斷的成為以軍傾角哈馬斯的一個重要目標那以色列的說法他當然是說醫院他裡面有很多"},{"start":12835.979,"end":12859.94,"text":"地下恐怖組織的成員哈馬斯的藏身處還有是軍火庫所以就這個部分他的作戰原因他雖然是這麼說可是還是受到世界各國的一個譴責那部長我想要請教一下就是我們後備指揮部所屬的單位至少到6月份開始也要求轄區的公廟簽訂了那個"},{"start":12863.243,"end":12868.527,"text":"但要預囤點的這個支援協定這引起民眾很普遍的一個擔憂一來但要就在你的住家旁邊二來要是發生戰爭的時候可能也遭受池魚之殃那在這個部分後備指揮部雖然有澄清他只是提升後勤支援的韌性這只是程序演練沒有進行真正的演練可是這個部分如果簽平時當然不會有什麼影響"},{"start":12891.724,"end":12906.082,"text":"但大家想到的是現在你整體的氛圍還有周邊的一個區域緊張的一個態勢可能就會增加大家的一個負擔跟疑慮那就這個部分因為你簽了在暫時其實他就是國軍的彈藥屯點玉屯點對不對"},{"start":12909.678,"end":12928.509,"text":"跟委員報告,它這個志願的協定不一定是玉屯彈藥的這樣子的一個志願協定上面就是寫要玉屯彈藥啊?你們上面在詢問的時候是玉屯彈藥啊?我們現在律定的就是說我們要去做一些設施調查跟動員邊管的一些地點"},{"start":12929.369,"end":12929.489,"text":"部長部長"},{"start":12947.461,"end":12964.359,"text":"因為您是法律人,你剛剛有提到了說就我們國內的法律還有國際法上面我們去遵循國際法上面其實他很清楚的有提到說國際法明定的宗教信仰場所不可以作為軍事用途"},{"start":12965.88,"end":12965.92,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":12982.253,"end":13006.654,"text":"我們國防部也好教育部或者其他內政部相關的單位包括你40萬的名利我們都知道其實在發生危難或者國家有需要的時候人人有責可是你不是用這樣子的一個方式隨便把它湊在一起剛剛我舉的那個例子除了宮廟以外你還有在活動中心在公園在學校甚至還有"},{"start":13007.495,"end":13007.535,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":13033.516,"end":13033.636,"text":"謝謝 各位請回應"},{"start":13063.112,"end":13065.633,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在"},{"start":13096.52,"end":13102.424,"text":"委員等一下啦吼那個國防部長有這個狀況啦吼"},{"start":13107.572,"end":13129.301,"text":"本期再宣告一次這我們今天會議一開始已經宣告今天禮拜四總統府有軍談所以我們巡曆禮拜四國防部長都會請假那包含參與軍談會議有副總長執行官權動署勤事室做事室那也都有指派代理人繼續接受巡達好我們接下來進行巡達委員是洪孟凱委員"},{"start":13139.99,"end":13147.378,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請次長你要副部長還是次長抱歉副部長應該是郭宏輝副部長來請宏輝好"},{"start":13157.349,"end":13162.893,"text":"國防部在本席的選區泰山就有跟我們內政部這個住都中心這邊有合作現在在這個營區裡面有部分的土地來蓋這個社會住宅"},{"start":13184.406,"end":13198.636,"text":"那其中有部分可以國防部這邊分回做這個官兵宿舍是最夢想上這也是一個以現在我們認為是說社宅要持續做然後在土地也需要取得一個情況下互相合作的一個可能性所以說剛剛"},{"start":13199.717,"end":13215.847,"text":"馬文君委員有講到這部分那本事也不禁想到啊就是說其實在林口地區我知道說國防部也有相關的這些設施這個營區或說相關的土地的部分是不是有可能進一步如果說現在有比較沒有使用的地方能夠來做這個設宅那也幫"},{"start":13222.491,"end":13243.528,"text":"有關社宅跟地方上的配合我們國防部從以前到現在為止我們都希望能夠跟地方做很好的配合尤其我們官兵我舉例來講我們很多社宅裡面在分配的時候尤其我們軍方的土地自建的所有的建設在未來來講的話我們有些地方改建的"},{"start":13243.948,"end":13244.008,"text":"主席"},{"start":13265.374,"end":13290.333,"text":"這我們都會合作那你現在現行的一個資料在林口地區跟泰山地區還有我們相關的這個土地的部分是不是也可以提供給我會提供委員參考來那我請教這個我特別看到了一下在12頁我們有講到因為今年151來延長到一年嘛時間也過得非常快第一批進入到151一年的也在兩個月左右就要退伍了"},{"start":13292.294,"end":13309.323,"text":"不知道現在訓練的狀況如何因為我看到第12頁只有講到8月底4000多名將近5000名期末的測試合格率98%是很高啦但我不知道是說這個有沒有灌水的原因這個期末測試是什麼新兵訓練"},{"start":13310.603,"end":13333.355,"text":"報告委員我跟委員報告我們所有的這個新兵的一年期的訓練我們是分階段那現在馬上退伍了是進到基地的建設那每一個階段的建設我們比如說我舉例來講那今年退伍還有兩個月真的還會有測試嗎我們在年底的時候基地完了還有一個建設所以總體建設到目前為止的話我跟委員報告我舉個例子來講比如說社企"},{"start":13339.439,"end":13361.132,"text":"設計我們看到的設計是用輔助裝備的這個設計你委員有去參觀過那經過這樣子的一個輔助裝備的一個設計他幾乎我是隨便抽問的我自己親自去看你親自去我隨便抽幾個都是滿把如果說部長在的話我也想要詢問部長是說他上任之後有沒有去關心這一批有有有我們部長"},{"start":13361.912,"end":13377.194,"text":"只要到部隊他都會去關心尤其是新進人員尤其一年級的因為這一年等於是說過去義務役沒有那麼長時間我們已經很長時間那今年的這一批義務役那到目前為止有沒有適應不良的情況"},{"start":13377.794,"end":13395.309,"text":"到目前為止當然有少數啦那我們在心理輔導上來講我們也做了大概不到1%吧報委員他有些適應不良環境適應不良還有生活上適應不良但在我們的輔導之下都可以順利的完成他的任務"},{"start":13396.07,"end":13408.438,"text":"敢講嗎?敢講實話嗎?可以講實話了可以講實話我還是必須強調我們在今年的大概11月到12月初的時候我們基地建設到一段時間是我們會開放記者實際去看我們不灌水"},{"start":13412.501,"end":13430.786,"text":"他設計是什麼就什麼那他的設計成績就可以做一個什麼實際上的驗證我想這個都是我們眼見為憑讓記者們親自去看我們也不用抽就直接他怎麼樣就什麼狀況我想這個是這也是本席接下來本來想要詢問的我們非常重視這個對我們不會灌水是因為本席就講是說其實既然政策已經要改動了因為已經是一年期了"},{"start":13439.408,"end":13466.466,"text":"國務院青年朋友也花了一年的一個青春歲月在我們的國軍裡面當然亦烏亦我們過去到現在我們講是說我那個時候是一年三個月四個月那沒關係現在的這個一年期那我們當然希望是說能夠看到你的訓練的一個結果跟訓練的狀況到底是不是有符合當初講說我們能夠怎麼樣來提升我們的一個戰力所以預計什麼時候會確定公告"},{"start":13467.587,"end":13484.542,"text":"公開的日期?11月底,我們會公佈,而且我們已經廣邀記者來參觀,也歡迎委員來參觀。那也會開放給全民?我們原廠設計場地,只有媒體。開放給媒體,那之後這個有沒有開放結訊還是什麼,有沒有開放給家屬?有有有,結訊會開放給家屬。"},{"start":13493.55,"end":13495.931,"text":"副部長請回接下來進行巡禮委員牛許廷委員副部長有請副部長"},{"start":13517.751,"end":13535.322,"text":"國防部長吳安有點可惜但沒關係因為總是要尊重國防部長行使職權所以我們願意理解但這部分就由您代勞來做回答這從新政府上任以來針對國防議題的討論看起來從輿論的反應來看其實非常多的比重在討論比如說所謂的全民防衛動員"},{"start":13536.443,"end":13554.791,"text":"有成立的這個社會任性委員會這個討論了40萬到底是民兵還是民力還有最近這段時間的政策走向這個義務役剛剛前面孟凱委員有提到這個議期重新延長的一些配套措施那看起來這個政策指導好像有在轉向的意思"},{"start":13555.351,"end":13579.414,"text":"因為舊本席過去這年輕時候的理解在學時候的理解那時候我們的國防政策基本上是希望走向精兵政策搭配高科技的武器去做最小的成本但是有最強的打擊能力這是我一直以來認知的國防的這樣一個走向那麼我想請教副部長本來想請教部長的問題是現在新政府上任之後現在這樣子的政策指導是否有轉向的趨勢"},{"start":13580.535,"end":13598.339,"text":"能上任之後是不是要把以前我們認知的精兵政策開始往全民防衛動員的方向去走請問是或不是報委員我要跟委員報告精兵跟戰力他是逐步在成長的那你也知道我們的全民防衛動員過去從後備動員制度裡面"},{"start":13601.587,"end":13629.324,"text":"因為烏克蘭戰爭我們成立了全動數那全動數的目的就是要整合跨部會的功能在全社會防禦任性上來講事實上是國際的潮流和趨勢那這個是來講的話對我們未來全民防禦動員來講的話是一個符合國際上的一個趨勢那同時在所有現在戰爭美軍也是這樣推全民社會防禦任性就是所以是政策轉向了不是政策轉向新的國防部"},{"start":13629.804,"end":13657.095,"text":"是我們在精兵政策情況下在國際潮流趨勢下我們增加了全社會防禦人性所以你認為是增加而不是增向好那我現在就要提一些概念我們回到精兵政策討論這個114年度我們中央政府的總預算關於國防部主管大概4760億增加大概比去年增加415億增幅9.57%其中以軍事投資的預算增幅這個最高"},{"start":13657.815,"end":13667.879,"text":"明年軍事投資預計是1457億政府大概是16.18%大概接近17左右當然嘛你當然是要為了充實國防戰力你要去買非常多的軍事設備這本身不反對但相對來講我們的人員維持的預算數量是1815億其實佔比反而從40%下降到38.14%這當然就反映也是今天媒體還有前一段時間大家有討論的也就是志願役的邊線比不足的一個問題"},{"start":13685.606,"end":13686.006,"text":"人數節節下降的問題"},{"start":13701.067,"end":13712.814,"text":"所以我現在要問的是我們針對現在志願役的人員的維持還有待遇的增加有沒有一些方向我跟副部長談一下這個我們現在國軍的整體兵力邊線比從2020年89%到88%2022年80%去年現在正在保八成的門檻明年守得住嗎"},{"start":13723.858,"end":13724.438,"text":"保委員守得住"},{"start":13753.578,"end":13772.86,"text":"建隊戰術徵收防空飛彈到憲兵指揮部等等這所謂的戰鬥部隊他的缺額狀況其實比總體數據還要更加嚴重那當然我們直觀上想第一件事本期認為三個一個是待遇第二個生涯規劃剛剛中央兵委員概念很好我們這退休10年的生涯之後那是什麼"},{"start":13773.26,"end":13773.5,"text":"顧立雄部長"},{"start":13798.471,"end":13813.102,"text":"副部長你應該是有經驗108年我們在討論戰鬥部隊加擠提報案中其實國防部吃了非常多行政院的牌頭對不對報委員我覺得經費這件事情不是牌頭本來在國家的經費上來講我們的經費要用在刀口上"},{"start":13813.302,"end":13813.402,"text":"國防部委員"},{"start":13837.528,"end":13860.099,"text":"戰鬥部隊缺員的問題上積極來做主張新的加擠方案什麼時候會有一個具體的進度跟時間我們這個東西一直在爭取當中我們福利待遇都是我們國軍所關注也希望委員多支持我們那至於說未來怎麼去爭取我們還要看是採這個狀況來決定當然有具體時間表我們在已經提出去了那我們希望在未來"},{"start":13860.959,"end":13861.419,"text":"我沒有講餘孽喔"},{"start":13888.943,"end":13891.788,"text":"謝謝主席 楊全發言 邀請副部長來 柏副部長請"},{"start":13900.344,"end":13925.404,"text":"我們針對於本週一無預警的中共對台展開了這個演習雖然說它是13個小時所以人民也不是很有感似乎認為是有點常態但是我們看到裡面有一個問題也就是它每一次縮小這個包圍的封鎖圈您的看法呢"},{"start":13926.264,"end":13941.184,"text":"報言我跟委員報告其實上我舉4個例子跟委員報告從2022年的裴洛西女士來訪8月份她是第一次的軍演那這次軍演所劃分的她執行了7天第二次的時候是"},{"start":13942.446,"end":13959.364,"text":"在2023年他號稱歷屆的第一次那是我們前蔡總統出訪華安的時候會見那個馬卡西這個國會議員的時候他又第二次居然他那個時候的時間是5天然後第三次2024B今年"},{"start":13961.476,"end":13961.496,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":13985.233,"end":13985.633,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":14005.421,"end":14025.349,"text":"他出動了12艘圍繞在歷史正圍繞在我台灣的周邊所以這個情況是越來越嚴重我們怕的是什麼今天他在無預警的情況下他會在下次行動的時候有可能會突然到20海裡這都是對我們來講是威脅那全球也都發生警訊"},{"start":14026.309,"end":14041.752,"text":"本席給你一分多的時間來做說明也就是說您看到持續縮小封鎖線其實是危險的是危險的那所以因此在這一次呢也有天然氣運輸船它掉頭就走了"},{"start":14042.193,"end":14044.934,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們所看到很多在公共訊息發布的時候事實上我們並沒有看到他真正的掉頭或是離開"},{"start":14067.521,"end":14089.533,"text":"這次中共非常聰明,它的演習區域它不發特定的no-fly zone,就是禁航區那所有的區域來講它是保持開放的,它盡可能把對國機的影響到最小但是未來有可能它會影響到我的燃油的運輸或者是外資的進入,這是它未來的企圖"},{"start":14090.613,"end":14110.317,"text":"未來的企圖如何就是你們要好好研究這也是本席告訴你的雖然中友說他們也是如期的也卸下來但是媒體所報導是如此如果你認為他沒有掉頭那你應該要給社會大眾說明清楚不要造成人民的一個恐慌所以針對第一個議題我們必須嚴肅的看待"},{"start":14114.458,"end":14142.314,"text":"尤其在我們整個能源的方面,靠著船運,這一個港口我們要怎麼因應,你們也一定要有一套的一個協助,這個因應,這才是人民能夠安心的。是的。這一個,好。那接下來本席要請問,你說認為這個是嚴肅的,所以最近你們有發文給我們縣市政府,說要調宮廟、調活動中心來放你們的彈藥以及戰備物資,是不是?"},{"start":14142.807,"end":14146.049,"text":"這件事我們剛才不少人講過,我們會引落在這個方面做檢討這人家嚇死欸,老百姓剛問我們說是不是要戰爭的一觸可發,活動中心以及宮廟,它不是你放這些彈藥相關的設施,它沒有欸,你可以這樣做嗎?"},{"start":14166.175,"end":14181.985,"text":"報告委員我們剛剛部長也回答了說一切在符合國際法案國內法的要求情況之下就儲存地點我們會來做全面的檢討那至於說過去所訂的這個方法是公廟或是活動中心我們國防部也允諾在未來做檢討"},{"start":14182.905,"end":14183.226,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14202.227,"end":14202.428,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":14227.064,"end":14251.161,"text":"謝謝主席 有請副部長還有權棟署來副部長跟白署長權棟署權棟署有來嗎陳委員好 這我們指引長林指引長他剛剛去開會OK好 謝謝副部長我想副部長你知道我要問什麼齁青年服務卿同意書造成了非常多家長的恐慌昨天呢非常多在野黨委員在我所在的教育文化委員會"},{"start":14252.202,"end":14270.556,"text":"也接輪上場齁那所有質詢呢交易部有他們的立場但是我想我還是要來這邊問一下我們國防部這邊的狀態但是我想我會有個人的理解跟解釋我想要請教一下國防部如果我們在這個同意書上面我們看到的寫法是說協助市政府避難引導社區關懷"},{"start":14272.737,"end":14299.864,"text":"公共服務還有行政支援等等勤務在學校的教育階段就可以完成相關的教育訓練還有演習以便在災難發生的時候可以發揮校園安全自救救人的功能如果解讀是這樣那為副部長你覺得為什麼會有這麼多在野黨委員認為這個是所謂的要把孩子送上戰場這樣的說法製造人民的恐慌那我們國防部要不要有一些說法來回應他們的恐慌"},{"start":14302.406,"end":14316.9,"text":"國防部在過去在全民國防教育是一個大家都應該要了解的對社區的付出和關懷也是需要全民來有的共識"},{"start":14318.061,"end":14342.278,"text":"那過去國防部所做的這些事情事實上來講就是希望在這種教育的情況下能夠讓我們的高中生他能夠保護自己保護校區的安全那這是什麼這是對於自己是有幫助的而不是說今天叫他拿了槍去上戰場這個是完全是不同的立場所以在教育訓練上來講委員也知道過去我們的高中生"},{"start":14343.038,"end":14364.006,"text":"在教育訓練軍事教育甚至大學軍事教育他是要修學分還有課程的那基於此我們只不過是希望每一個國民對全民國防教育你能夠自己保護自己那這個是一個什麼從一個全民的國防教育來出發沒有牽扯到任何戰爭的手段"},{"start":14365.727,"end":14372.069,"text":"謝謝副部長的說明我們回過來看權動法我也想要請副部長回應我的解讀這麼正確在90年修法的時候第4條談到動員準備事項要有中央各個機關還有直線式縣市政府納入年度施政計劃推動也就是說它本來就要立場的進行我們到了第5條來看它甚至把行政動員的準備分為行政動員準備跟軍事動員準備也就是光是準備的事項就不一樣"},{"start":14394.697,"end":14417.011,"text":"所以事項內容不一樣,主管機關也不一樣,那我們來看下一頁在90年修法的時候,現任的台中市長,當時是立法委員,盧秀燕委員,她當時就說很多人過去都有一些錯誤觀念,那些錯誤觀念就是我昨天在交易文化委員會聽到在野黨委員錯誤觀念,他們說全民國防就只是國防部的事情"},{"start":14417.751,"end":14425.9,"text":"他們把許多後備的工作跟全民防衛混淆在一起認為所謂的全民防衛就是後備系統當時的盧委員他說這是錯的"},{"start":14428.49,"end":14428.95,"text":"我完全同意委員的看法"},{"start":14455.137,"end":14476.185,"text":"所以如果這樣的看法您也認同而且您也覺得這樣的說法我們可以協助釐清不要讓家長惡化那我們國防部這邊是不是要協同教育部做更多積極的討論因為昨天教育部長已經致歉了那剛剛國防部長好像也說嚴議可能可以取消可是我站在全民防衛如同剛剛"},{"start":14477.956,"end":14495.2,"text":"吳秀燕委員說的,它包含了人力、物力、經費、電力還有各種資源,我們好像不應該只是所謂的嚴疫取消,或者是只是致歉,就可以解決這個口號。我們部長的意思,我回答一下,部長剛才說,因為現在有很多繁文魯節,像比如說他要調查"},{"start":14497.541,"end":14520.525,"text":"我們學生要去填表,像這些事情反恨乳結我們都可以考量,這些反恨乳結都可以取消那至於說,內容符合法的精神,那我們要和教育部來共同來研究那如果說有疑慮,那就修法,如果沒有疑慮,那應該我們教育部和我們共同來說明這個目的是為何,不要讓社會造成恐慌,是我們的責任"},{"start":14520.805,"end":14537.084,"text":"好太好了我只剩20秒所以我得到了副部長您的允諾我們會積極跟教育部來共同研議解決家長的恐慌因為過度錯誤的訊息不斷的在民間散播我們來自教育文化委員會我們要表達我們的提醒那也謝謝副部長之後我們會再跟教育部還有國防部積極的討論好嗎好謝謝委員"},{"start":14542.932,"end":14570.937,"text":"好謝謝陳培宇委員你是今天時間控制最完美的好謝謝請坐謝謝歡迎再來歡迎常來好謝謝我們接下來進行巡禮委員是徐富奎委員謝謝主席我們有請副部長來博副部長秀元好"},{"start":14572.779,"end":14588.428,"text":"副部長好,我想請教一下副部長,知道我們屏東縣目前有多少國軍的基地跟演訓的場域嗎?這個詳細數字的話,七處,可能不止,大大小小不止,因為我們訓示場講主要的訓場是七個訓場,"},{"start":14594.372,"end":14615.66,"text":"還有我們還有很多國軍的基地,我們陸海空都駐紮在屏東,還有很多的演訓基地,所以屏東縣是對國防部最友善的一個縣市,副部長認同嗎?我認同,而且我們對屏東的付出也很多,比如說著名的所有的煤聯的洋蔥的駐收等等,我們國防部都不予以例。"},{"start":14617.113,"end":14646.03,"text":"但是除了注收之外我們受到的一個傷害也很大尤其我想我跟吳立法委員都一樣我們長期在地方在這個服務的過程裡面也遭受到很多鄉親的一個質疑說針對這個國軍的一個募領的一個工作上面沒有考量到一個所謂的橫貧性尤其我們像我們屏東的酒棚基地長年請教副部長我們一年演訓的次數有多少時間有多少"},{"start":14648.672,"end":14660.722,"text":"報告委員我這樣看應該進訓的部隊從年初到年尾幾乎都有演訓是啊我們的酒棚機率有1600公頃但是我們跟一公頃的訓場的補助標準一樣的"},{"start":14664.665,"end":14679.488,"text":"加上我們的次數比其他縣市多更多但是我們沒有受到我們不是要求要補償我們希望可以不要來演習不要傷害我們的房子不要傷害我們的漁場可是不可能啊你們還是要來演習啊但是相對性"},{"start":14680.189,"end":14705.013,"text":"在過去這麼多年以來我們要求要去檢討這個木林基金的一個調整把中科院各軍種的一個補償費用做一個適當的一個比例的原則來保障我們地方的權益這部分我覺得我們國防部一直沒有釋出善意委員我想那個我們訓示上他一直要說他要回答那就讓他回答吧"},{"start":14708.034,"end":14722.453,"text":"跟委員報告那個屏東的木林補助嚴格來講大概是全省各縣市最高的當然我們主要的武器火炮的訓場在屏東比較多"},{"start":14723.214,"end":14743.945,"text":"那第二個關於中科院的部分我們最近有在研討原本的話我們是委由中科院來做補助那現在考慮到其他海空的飛彈在那邊做射擊所以我們已經在研議要把它做來做一個分開意思也說到時候會有兩個單位來做相關的一些補助"},{"start":14744.545,"end":14744.745,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":14769.028,"end":14786.329,"text":"我們業管的是主要訓場的木林補助那您剛講的是賠償我們其實有辦法的那有另外的賠償辦法只要因為演訓期間有受到任何的損傷都可以來提出這個賠償的辦法跟您做報告"},{"start":14788.8,"end":14817.591,"text":"培產應該永遠都達不到所謂的一個標準對培產跟這個牧林的訓長牧林補助是不一樣的牧林補助是我們會有很多參考只有他的使用的次數啊天數啊還有考慮到這個聲音啊震爆等等我們有做一個補助那如果因為演訓期間造成一些傷害的話是另外來做一個培產跟你做報告市長請教一下今年我看修正計畫裡面"},{"start":14818.471,"end":14830.82,"text":"有特別一個,如果那個子彈打到上面的又有加碼那個是賠償,是賠償,跟補助不一樣如果有受傷害的話就另外做賠償會賠償,另外再做賠償"},{"start":14837.003,"end":14838.525,"text":"國防部立場首先要感謝這個所有屏東的在這個訓場對我們長時間下來的合作和容忍我想國家的安全"},{"start":14857.586,"end":14858.386,"text":"主席 不好意思"},{"start":14880.493,"end":14899.65,"text":"最後針對我們所謂的一個海洋保育的部分希望我們也要強化這些漁民已經沒辦法出海捕魚很可憐了連出海捕魚都捕不到魚另外一個針對我們所有的基地周邊的道路因為你們有很多的大型卡車大型軍用車進出但是我們道路都很狹小"},{"start":14900.811,"end":14927.588,"text":"拜託優先處理好不好好委員我希望未來的事務我們訓練市場在這個地方只要地方上有任何像您的問題提出來的時候我們希望全民參與不是只有關門起來做我相信我們訓練市場一定會同意我希望不是我提出來你們才要改進你們應該主動要提出來是沒問題委員真的遁清目裡是好謝謝委員謝謝徐副委員副部長請回好接下來進行詢答委員麥玉珍委員"},{"start":14938.951,"end":14939.051,"text":"麥委員好"},{"start":14951.462,"end":14980.138,"text":"好 副部長好我們國軍保防單位查獲共某案件到乎增加了100年到112年就查獲了40案件共有113人所以對比來說90年到99年的話就獲查的9人而已就是暴增了12倍所以請教部長"},{"start":14981.567,"end":14997.04,"text":"我們的國軍到底發生什麼事了還有第二個我們再請教這一題我們大陸姐妹6年拿身份證跟4年拿到身份證他們對國安有問題嗎"},{"start":14999.114,"end":15026.51,"text":"有關於這兩個問題我首先要回答的第一個問題就是說有關於所謂的這樣子共諜案的暴增的情況基本上我們也跟委員報告事實上來講多半都是我們國軍主動發掘的這個百分比大概在86%甚至到87%左右那我相信這樣子的一個方式今天我們國軍之所以會暴增"},{"start":15027.728,"end":15046.838,"text":"一個原因就是中國大陸對我們在任何方面的滲透採取各種不同方式要來滲透到我們軍隊那我們必須要檢討為什麼會有這麼多管道進來這樣子的一個方式是我們在方式上檢討的這是第一點"},{"start":15050.041,"end":15076.098,"text":"法際教育上來講我們都必須要告訴我們的官兵因為很多的共諜案發生都是因為小小的利益所產生的誘惑讓我們覺得很遺憾在這個方面法際教育是我們經常在各種不同的手段去教育我們的官兵的第三個我們需要強調的我們今天的國家安全是靠大家"},{"start":15078.116,"end":15096.745,"text":"國軍是守在第一線守護國家安全當國軍發生任何問題的時候事實上來講我們在全社會上來講也必須要請社會給我們國軍支持也就是說如果他有這樣的現象我們也歡迎提供所以說之前其他人沒有查獲那麼多"},{"start":15097.225,"end":15113.115,"text":"所以現在我們就查獲那麼多就是因為我講中共的滲透手法越來越複雜所以說我們就是說很好就是查獲更多的話是我們要發現更早才不會被我們的國家更安全我希望我們國軍都不會受到誘惑所以說我們是要問出問題 把你額熱一下因為有這樣子的 又發現"},{"start":15124.321,"end":15148.418,"text":"更多就是因為他們就滲透我們發言早就會預防更好所以我們新住民大陸姊妹他們拿到身份證台灣的身份證不會影響到我們在台灣的國安的問題所以也請大家不要再去抹黑或者是拿這個來去當作一個說新住民拿到身份證的問題"},{"start":15149.318,"end":15149.758,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告"},{"start":15164.744,"end":15178.957,"text":"保防人員編制提升就是法源依據的標準性還有同時要確保人員升遷的管道要順利才能讓官兵全力防堵共謀的滲透所以"},{"start":15181.599,"end":15194.868,"text":"保訪工作非常不容易,大家都是在這個工作很不容易,但是除了受到單位主管的打壓,還有說獨立性又不到重視的話,這樣子的問題,我們的國防部這邊要如什麼策略,還有什麼"},{"start":15203.293,"end":15208.616,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會表達保防是我督導的那我對於保防的工作我非常重視我們局長在旁邊我定期到全省任何地方跟我們保防幹部座談那我也告訴我們政戰局局長"},{"start":15232.935,"end":15234.797,"text":"謝謝我們的國防部這邊希望就是我們"},{"start":15262.278,"end":15262.818,"text":"謝謝主席 有請副部長副部長請"},{"start":15295.456,"end":15314.637,"text":"副部長您好大家都辛苦了我今天來想要請教一下副部長應該有了解近日以來軍紀問題屢屢上新聞您應該很清楚比我更清楚所以我就直接問了"},{"start":15315.678,"end":15341.771,"text":"那麼到底國防部目前軍方做了哪一些對應或者是調整措施我想了解一下報委有關軍事督導事實上來講我們每一個軍種單位都有相關的單位來做督導甚至於到基層的聯隊他都有相關的軍事督導那我們發現到這些我們的少數官兵在營外"},{"start":15342.651,"end":15342.831,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":15362.066,"end":15366.687,"text":"謝謝副部長我大概了解了但是我今天來我其實是接收到很多弟兄"},{"start":15391.288,"end":15392.468,"text":"是完全正確是的是的"},{"start":15416.394,"end":15439.3,"text":"所以如果違背這樣的一個目標導致大家心生埋怨然後大家人心惶惶您覺得這樣能打仗嗎當然是不行的所以在軍際上來講要求人心渙散這件事情我們軍隊在心防始終沒有送穴過那我想要跟副部長就是轉達是"},{"start":15441.892,"end":15464.799,"text":"我聽到的我感受到的其實我們軍方有所謂的聯作每次只要有一個人出事你應該很了解就是從班牌聯營旅無限循環的檢討會其實對很多人來講壓力很大他做得好好的"},{"start":15466.004,"end":15478.306,"text":"但是呢,他馬上就要被禁修、召回,然後無限循環的檢討會,對他來講很受打擊,對他們的家庭來講更受挫折。"},{"start":15479.434,"end":15506.379,"text":"我覺得這不是最好的一種方式可是我們上去看這些弟兄們的留言我發現大家都會談到一件事好像很抱怨的就是說太多不好的都是留下來然後太少太儲不好的然後好的劣幣驅逐良幣走了我聽到大部分都是這樣所以我認為我們無需要本末倒置"},{"start":15507.69,"end":15528.401,"text":"我希望的是說其實我可以理解因為我們原住民太多國軍弟兄其實就像很多的行業別像很年輕20幾歲剛出來的法官要去處理那麼多他人生經驗中不曾理解過不曾感受過的案件你叫他如何做判斷"},{"start":15529.642,"end":15548.505,"text":"所以我們需要有工具幫忙像我知道的這些年輕法官現在有所謂的專業鑑定師來輔導他那我要講的是說我們很多的少尉排長他年紀輕輕他都不知道那些小小士兵在想什麼但是他要當他的輔導長"},{"start":15551.397,"end":15572.398,"text":"副部長我想你應該理解我的意思但是我們這樣的一個階級制度我們非常的惜才受過這樣的訓練所以我希望軍方能夠想辦法痛定思痛去找到一些更有效更好的一個管理我們的軍人紀律的方式可以嗎"},{"start":15574.2,"end":15588.759,"text":"有關於紀律管理在我們國軍不單只是在我們內部制裡面檢討我們國軍管理的方式那我必須要強調過去的連坐機制事實上在一個戰場上來講是一個他必須的手段"},{"start":15589.56,"end":15591.341,"text":"主席,我有一個小小的第二個問題,再給我一分鐘好嗎?權動署"},{"start":15614.955,"end":15634.666,"text":"我本來想要請教全動署這個後指部到底它的運作功能是什麼那我就不問了但是我知道的是以高雄為例平均一個輔導中心會有70個幹部有的是有薪水大部分是沒有薪水的"},{"start":15635.226,"end":15661.356,"text":"到底他的工作內容是什麼那我今天會提出來的原因是說很多人跟我反映明明他就是回去變後備軍人不曾被邀請參加輔導中心活動然後呢連那個賴群組也沒有辦法備加然後呢常常看到他們去發物資但是呢民眾都以為是某個特定的政黨所以我就想要問了到底他們的功能是什麼應該是準備打仗吧"},{"start":15661.656,"end":15661.956,"text":"謝謝副部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":15687.994,"end":15712.222,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員接下來進行詢答委員是蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在羅明財委員、羅明財委員、羅明財委員不在邱志維委員、邱志維委員、邱志維委員不在羅志強委員、羅志強委員、羅志強委員不在高金素美委員、高金素美委員、高金素美委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在"},{"start":15713.632,"end":15742.065,"text":"已登記質詢委員出不在場外：均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供但"},{"start":15742.825,"end":15745.871,"text":"委員令約定期限者從約定所定本日會議到此結束大家辛苦了散會"}]}},{"date":"2024-10-17","影片長度":"05:38:42","end_time":"2024-10-17T14:10:00+08:00","type":"Full","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16180","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":20322,"start_time":"2024-10-17T08:31:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db75bc8616f11b3287ae17401902c90994c04c64b87e30630a1e3473d1bbab934c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行方案」進行報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:18 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MANGA"},{"start":1766.089,"end":1783.536,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1830.303,"end":1831.203,"text":"現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1843.547,"end":1864.378,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議．事由．時間113年10月16日星期三9時至15時3分．地點紅樓議員會議室．出席委員林大化委員等14人．列席委員萬美玲委員等36人．列席人員經濟部部長郭志輝及相關人員．主席呂昭吉委員喻林"},{"start":1865.018,"end":1883.149,"text":"報告事項一,宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二,邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃進行報告．並備質詢。經濟部長郭志輝及台灣電力股份有限公司董事長曾文森報告後,"},{"start":1883.649,"end":1904.334,"text":"委員．帶話等32人提出質詢．均由經濟部．郭部長及相關人員即席答覆決定．登記發言委員．處不在場．走在區域．均與發言完畢．詢答結束二委員．民事明．陳冠廷．王宏維及傅坤祺．所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢案未及答覆部分．請相關單位與一周內以書面答覆並複製總會散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1915.47,"end":1917.791,"text":"再層委員．不足3人．議事錄暫時不處理繼續進行報告事項．請宣讀"},{"start":1939.875,"end":1958.165,"text":"本日議程排定．農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行方案．進行報告．並備質詢。我們先介紹在場的委員林黛嬅委員好再來介紹與會的各位首長還有張家俊委員好謝謝"},{"start":1966.343,"end":1967.484,"text":"請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?"},{"start":1997.48,"end":1999.021,"text":"主席、各位委員今天奉邀到"},{"start":2025.831,"end":2045.347,"text":"我們立法院的經濟委員會來報告有關於農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行報告首先還是感謝我們所有委員長期對我們農業的支持那以下我們用簡報的方式跟委員做相關的一個評估跟執行方案的一個說明"},{"start":2056.066,"end":2072.093,"text":"公糧的一個收購它是事實上它是從63年起到163年之間經歷的12次收購的一個調整那最近的一次的調整是在100年的一個調整那當時提高了公糧的價格是每公斤3塊錢並補助烘乾費等2塊錢每公斤"},{"start":2076.095,"end":2093.301,"text":"那整個稻作的面積在99年度99年大概24.4萬公頃那增加到103年達到27萬公頃那並持續的維持這個27萬公頃多年齁那期間會有一些一些變化最主要變化就是因為"},{"start":2094.663,"end":2119.594,"text":"有一些天肉異常那平均超產是20萬公噸那公糧的收購由99年的19.2萬公噸暴升到108年的57.5萬公噸那政府在公糧的一個收購的一個支出大概每年大概都差不多平均到100億左右那從91年開始我們加入WTO以後開放稻米進口那但是"},{"start":2121.021,"end":2146.855,"text":"我們國人的飲食習慣也開始做了一些改變每人每年的百米消費量從60年代的130公斤一直降到我們今年43公斤表示說每人每年10米的一個需求大概只剩下43公斤但是因為公糧價格的誘因我們種植面積一直沒辦法有效的控制所以"},{"start":2147.475,"end":2152.595,"text":"到目前為止,我們的稻穀的生產還是供給大於它的需求"},{"start":2156.693,"end":2181.766,"text":"所以我們在農業部在處理整個怎麼樣去精進稻米政策的時候其實我們有一個非常重要的一個目標就是我們一定要確保農民的收益但是在確保農民的收益的時候我們也要讓我們的產業持續的精進讓我們的產業不斷的進步永續的發展所以在這個基本的目標的前提之下大概有兩個策略可以去處理第一個就是提高公糧的價格"},{"start":2182.694,"end":2200.905,"text":"第二個部分就是提高產地的價格那底下就用兩個方式來跟各位來一個說明那我先說一下現在目前稻穀收購的一個方式那整個現在目前的一個稻穀收購大概30%的數量是繳交到公糧"},{"start":2201.866,"end":2230.404,"text":"那另外70%的數量是由民糧來收或者是用集團產區契作來收那繳交公糧的這些稻農的一個習性那因為基本上繳公糧他是不分品質的他是不分品質的他是只管數量所以相對的就是種稻的農民比較偏好固定的一個品種然後產量比較高的一個品種那相對的他"},{"start":2231.946,"end":2259.238,"text":"這些品種很容易受到最近的氣候變遷造成的一些影響所以相對於遇到天然災害的時候它可能損失也比較大那角膠民糧因為角膠民糧後面的基礎產品它是做品牌為主的所以當我做品牌的時候我會對品質的要求會大於對量的一個要求然後對於生產管理的方式也會比較朝向於合理化跟安全用途的方式來著手"},{"start":2259.938,"end":2279.332,"text":"然後這些民糧本身的一些極端產區的經營主體他也會嘗試不同的品種來因應我們未來的一個氣候變遷的一個影響那如果說我們用下一個表來看的話"},{"start":2280.543,"end":2308.224,"text":"整個繳交公糧的全部百分之百繳交公糧的人大概是2.2萬人那繳交部分繳交公糧的部分大概就是百分之24然後繳交民糧為主的是百分之22那全部不繳公糧的大概有百分之44所以換句話說如果以人數來講全部的到農數大概是22.5萬人那有繳公糧的或是繳部分公糧的"},{"start":2310.345,"end":2319.07,"text":"純粹講公糧大概2.2萬人左右那如果說有跟公糧有接觸有來往的大概是12萬人左右大概是一半,將近一半的人數為主"},{"start":2322.981,"end":2348.972,"text":"我們看這個圖可以看得到整個的一個從100年以後開始我們提高公糧價格以後它的面積就開始逐漸的一個生長但是它反映的我們的產力價格卻到後來到109年到109年的時候就降到923塊就明白台金的部分那如果說我們看它的一個公糧的一個收購可以很明顯的看"},{"start":2349.713,"end":2360.106,"text":"當你的產地價格高的時候那道農就不會繳公糧他就會繳民糧當你的產地價格低的時候那大部分的人就會去繳公糧所以公糧"},{"start":2361.44,"end":2381.463,"text":"跟我們的那個民糧的繳交他會因為產地價格而有不一樣的一個影響那從100年以後我們推的到做試選山然後我們也推的大區輪座等一些政策的優言去確保他的面積在24萬公頃上下的時候那產地價格就不斷的拉上來"},{"start":2382.023,"end":2405.266,"text":"那產地價格拉上來的時候各位可以看到下面的他的公糧只剩下繳交公糧的剩下36萬跟33萬那事實上比107年的54萬跟57萬差很多那從這個數據可以顯示說如果我們支撐了很好的產地價格的時候那相對的大部分的稻農都願意去繳交民糧他就不會進到我們的公糧的系統來"},{"start":2408.086,"end":2426.421,"text":"那另外一個我想數據要跟我們所有委員分享的就是我們的食品量是逐漸的降低那相對的我們的產量也是逐漸的降低那如果各位可以看到一百年的時候一百年的時候因為我們再次提高了公糧的價格的時候它的產量又開始往上拉"},{"start":2427.222,"end":2447.362,"text":"但是我們的10米的消費量繼續的往下跌到大概42.1的去年度的42.1元但是它的產量就逐漸的上來那100年的時候因為我們推動了所謂的稻作試卷和稻卷輪作去有效的去控制面積的時候那產量才可以"},{"start":2447.802,"end":2458.071,"text":"逐漸的回穩往下降所以這些圖表也再次顯現出當你的面積提高的時候你的所有的價格都沒辦法去做一個有效的支撐"},{"start":2461.377,"end":2477.789,"text":"那第三個部分我想要跟各位委員說明的就是公糧價格的提高是只針對繳公糧的這些農民受益他並不利於整個稻米產業的一個發展因為剛才說了所有的稻農他繳數量來講70%是不繳公糧的"},{"start":2481.952,"end":2495.107,"text":"那不繳公糧的話他就不會因為公糧價格提高而受益那更同樣的就是我們現在在推動極端產區因為我們台灣的耕地非常小必須擴大災變面積才有效那"},{"start":2496.161,"end":2516.189,"text":"一旦我們提高了公糧以後那相對的原來在做極端產區以品質為主的這些產區的這些企作戶他就會因為公糧價格提高的誘因他就會轉回去種公糧那相對的未來的這些品牌米的後端的行銷就會造成一些困擾"},{"start":2516.989,"end":2536.503,"text":"那更重要就是其實以農業部來講我們看的是整體的產業那以糧食安全來講我們必須更積極的去針對雜糧的種植去做一個有效的推廣那相對的整個公糧的提高以後它對於其他的產業包括花卉包括雜糧部分它都有"},{"start":2537.364,"end":2538.105,"text":"那第二個部分就是"},{"start":2554.062,"end":2582.43,"text":"全世界到目前為止只有稻米只有台灣有稻米的一個保價收購的部分那相對的提高公糧價格對於水稻以外的產業他並沒有辦法直接受益那相對的公平性特別是我們在做歷史的座談裡面有很多種其他作物的這些品種給我們反應那公糧價格如果提高的時候那相對的這些其他的產業也會希望說如果說這樣子的方式對他們的農業的一個均衡發展是不利的"},{"start":2587.495,"end":2612.825,"text":"所以我想同樣是讓產業進步同樣是讓稻農的所得提高那農業部提出了一個一級二轉三加三的一個政策那這個政策其實最重要還是能夠提高整個稻農整體的一個收益並不部分的然後也能夠兼顧到我們的糧食安全跟我們的整個農業的一個永續發展那在一級的部分我想跟各位委員說明"},{"start":2615.814,"end":2637.225,"text":"一級的部分我們的目標就是我們要種優質的品種我們要高的一個棄作價格然後包括我們的一個存糧也是要高的部分所以整個政策目的大概分為三個部分第一個部分就是我們透過集團的經營由小面積變成大面積的耕種的話它會減少它的生產成本然後從引導農民從重視產量"},{"start":2641.308,"end":2654.838,"text":"轉向重視稻米品質的一個提升那第二部分就是種植優質特色的產品的話我們可以提高適當的一個砌作價格那第三個部分用這種方式來維持稻作的一個基本面積大概就是24萬公頃那"},{"start":2663.752,"end":2683.666,"text":"那怎麼樣加入極端產區呢?這邊做一個非常簡單的介紹極端產區就是有一個極端的經營主體那經營主體會跟農民契作那契作以後因為他要做後面的品牌的行銷那相對的他會在前端會去引導農民怎麼樣做有合理化的思維跟合理化的用藥"},{"start":2684.686,"end":2710.566,"text":"讓他的農藥跟肥料做精準的使用那相對的他的品質是因為比較好那他也可以做一個後段的一個品牌米的一個的一個行銷那透過品牌米讓我們的良質米的價格用優良的品質去提升他的一個一個收益那目前我想大概整個集團產區是大概是三萬五千公斤那我們會持續的努力去做推動"},{"start":2714.226,"end":2722.2,"text":"那一級的部分對農民到底有什麼誘因嗎?我們這邊設計的就是如果我們農民願意轉向集團栽培那轉向集團栽培的時候"},{"start":2726.012,"end":2752.194,"text":"第一個就是我們會給予農友大概每公頃一萬塊的一個獎勵的一個獎勵措施那如果說他願意配合極端產區的經營主體去轉成品質比較好的米的話我們另外給他三千兩百塊的一個獎勵金所以換句話說你參加農民參加一級的話大概可以一個期座可以領一萬三千兩百塊的部分那同樣的我們也鼓勵的契作"},{"start":2753.191,"end":2764.08,"text":"的經營主體讓企作的經營主體比較有大的能量去跟我們的農民做比較好的價格的企作那如果說採用優質的產品優質的品種種植的時候"},{"start":2772.779,"end":2785.389,"text":"大概整個的一個集團的契作至少是26塊半比我們現在的公糧價格是26塊還高0.5塊所以換句話說農民只要用U值的米做集團產集團經營那邊加入的集團產區"},{"start":2788.872,"end":2814.787,"text":"他的價格就是每公斤就可以達到26.5塊的這樣的一個要求那這樣的話不但可以增加他的收入也可以保障他的提高因為他是用企作的方式來做一個收購然後讓我們的整個米也能夠朝向更優質的方向去去著手所以換句話說如果原申報的農民他轉集團產區然後種優質的稻米的話大概可以多領了一萬三千兩百塊"},{"start":2817.213,"end":2822.491,"text":"第二個部分是二轉那二轉大概有兩個部分要向各位委員說明的"},{"start":2825.714,"end":2850.702,"text":"我們整個二轉的目的就是在我們現在的地層下限區高鐵沿線、雲林湖北高鐵沿線的地層下限區還有我們大區輪座的一個水資源的共同應用區裡面易缺水的水庫灌區裡面我們去推動這樣的一個二轉的措施那二轉的措施裡面大概一起做的部分大概就是我們的水庫的灌區裡面特別是"},{"start":2851.762,"end":2870.684,"text":"大區輪作的區域那另外一個區域就是高鐵沿線的部分包括湖北土庫延展跟北港境內的這些高鐵沿線的部分那這是整個過去我想我們過去3年大概有做了一些大區輪作的一個輪法那這個輪法未來還是會繼續去做一個相關的一個實施"},{"start":2873.032,"end":2894.911,"text":"那在一期做,你如果在一缺水的灌區裡面的話,我們會提供節水獎勵,那這個節水獎勵大概就是3萬塊那你如果說,你如果說配合這些綠肥景觀作物的翻耕的話,你的節水獎勵可以達到4.2元每一公頃4.2萬的部分,那如果說你同時也搭配了轉做其他作物的話,你又多了"},{"start":2895.652,"end":2895.672,"text":"致詢"},{"start":2913.339,"end":2940.317,"text":"高鐵沿線的特區的部分那它的節水獎勵更會提高到五萬塊因為高鐵沿線的地震下線對於整個交通的安全會有隱憂所以我們近年來一直積極在高鐵沿線推動這些轉焊座的這些部分所以相對的你如果轉焊座的部分的時候那相對的你的節水獎勵會提高到五萬塊那你如果說同樣是搭配我們的集團栽培那你會再增加0.5萬塊的就是換句話說是5.5萬的一個獎勵"},{"start":2945.78,"end":2964.747,"text":"那第二期的部分就比較特別了因為第二期本來水稻的成本也比較高它的收益也比較低所以我們這邊提供了一個你如果二期做的一個不重道的一個獎勵是每一公頃1.5萬元那你不重道的時候你去轉其他的作物那其他的作物搭配我們現在的政策"},{"start":2965.427,"end":2986.596,"text":"就是你如果轉 像你轉育民的話你可以得到6萬元的獎勵那你如果做小麥高粱的部分可以得到4.5萬元的獎勵那我們希望說透過這樣的一個不重道的獎勵1.5萬再搭配我的企作獎勵是0.5萬那至少你可以增加2萬塊的一個收入那整體來講整個的一個效益是4.5萬到8萬左右"},{"start":2990.793,"end":2997.872,"text":"整個營運主體當然我們也會配套給他相關的這些面積的一個獎勵跟他的一個補助還有一個金融的一個協助"},{"start":2999.568,"end":3026.378,"text":"那3加3大概有幾個重點那第一個重點就是我們會提高水稻異物質加強性保險的理賠金額我們會把他的目標價格至少提高3塊讓他在理賠的時候能夠至少每一公斤可以多3塊的這種概念就是目標價格能夠提高3塊當你的天然災害發生的時候你會得到更有收入的一個保障那第二個部分就是我們會推動市場採購"},{"start":3028.021,"end":3043.726,"text":"我們剛才講的其實我們推動一級二轉三加三的目的就是要支撐我們的產地的價格因為只有產地的價格提升才能夠照顧所有的稻農那當你的產地價格有一些波動的時候那我們就會到市場那邊做採購的動作"},{"start":3045.627,"end":3069.785,"text":"那採購的動作的時候就會讓我的產地價格得到一個適當的支撐而這個適當的支撐比起我把這些經費用在公糧的提高價格只能受到部分的農民受益的情況之下會更有效率的對整體的產業做一個支撐然後另外我們也會推廣多元的米食跟加工的一個部分"},{"start":3072.064,"end":3079.645,"text":"這是剛才我所提到的就是目標價格提高然後相對的就是整個市場採購的部分然後另外還有一個米斯的一個推廣"},{"start":3082.725,"end":3105.318,"text":"那整體我想我們做一個比較就是說我想主決議裡面有提高公糧價格5塊錢那相對的我們希望說同樣在照顧稻農的前提之下我們推出了一級二轉3加3的一個稻米產業升級的策略我們從幾個面向做一個比較第一個面向是從總受益人數來做比較那剛才也說了"},{"start":3106.278,"end":3129.47,"text":"提高公糧收購只有2.2萬人是全部繳公糧的那另外繳50%的公糧以上的大概5.4萬人沒有超過50%的4.9萬人那總計起來大概是12萬人但是一級二轉三加三最後支撐的是產地的價格那產地的價格支撐是所有的22.5萬人的動農全體受益的那在預算的支出方面來講"},{"start":3130.45,"end":3144.185,"text":"那如果說提高5塊錢的時候預計面積會增加到27到28萬公頃那相關所增加的經費大概是91億到116億那如果說用一級二轉三加三大概所用的經費大概是16.5億元那整個經費"},{"start":3147.389,"end":3176.969,"text":"因為公糧還有原來在收購的公糧所以整個經費對公糧的一個經費大概是178億到200億左右光公糧的收購這件事情那如果說用我們的一級二轉參加參的話就會維持原來的公糧收購的水準然後再加上16.5億就是112億那第二個第三個部分是增加風險的部分剛才也特別中整一下就是產地糧價的提升整個短多長工的部分公糧的提升就是短多長工"},{"start":3179.491,"end":3191.244,"text":"臺灣因為公糧價格提高的面積提高了造成後續的疲軟那相對的公糧價格提升很容易造成一些後端市場的百米的價格的一個衝擊那"},{"start":3193.393,"end":3218.079,"text":"第4個部分剛才也講了這些極端產區品牌的這些部分都沒有辦法照顧到那同樣的我們用一級二轉三加蛋的部分我們可以逐步擴大我們的極端產區栽培然後讓農友從量改變到值的一個確保然後提升整個轉焊桌的一個誘因這是我想我們做整體的一個分析那在這邊我也要跟各位做一個報告其實"},{"start":3220.243,"end":3246.741,"text":"農業部政府部門對於稻作產業這些稻農其實有每一年都投入相當大的經費去做它的一個支持然後我們也檢視了從111年到113年平均我們針對稻農大概每一年大概公糧價格不算的話就是投入了156億的經費去支持稻農的相關的這些作為包括環境基本給付、休耕轉作、收入保險"},{"start":3247.381,"end":3247.401,"text":"致詞"},{"start":3263.646,"end":3281.547,"text":"我們希望用一級二轉三家餐的方式來推動那相關的參與這樣的一個政策的話你每年每期做兩年的話大概可以提到三到六萬元然後如果說你是轉漢做的部分大概可以從一萬到六萬元不等"},{"start":3282.168,"end":3282.569,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":3302.267,"end":3304.528,"text":"主席我想請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":3326.92,"end":3330.745,"text":"部長 我們等一下再來討論這個公糧收購我想先問你 農業部與教育部共同推動全台灣2600所這個國小133.5萬名學童單班喝鮮乳的政策"},{"start":3344.524,"end":3365.834,"text":"結果呢因為政策上路 農業部教育部對供應鏈好像是非常的陌生只依靠想像導致有高達75%的學校都選擇喝飽酒乳那變成是斑斑喝飽酒乳這樣子就算了一直到9月底"},{"start":3366.314,"end":3374.857,"text":"開學一個月了才有學校喝到第一次多數縣市的學童連一次都沒有喝到部長你怎麼看這件事?"},{"start":3381.96,"end":3387.401,"text":"你不覺得這很誇張嗎?你們在執行這些政策之前都沒有想過它整個供應鏈要怎麼樣可以適時的供應給學校嗎?誇張的是保酒乳也因為這個生產供應不足下單了也沒有貨可以配送因此整個政策最荒唐的一幕終於出現了農業部怎麼講?"},{"start":3410.586,"end":3426.671,"text":"你們說訂不到保酒乳可以訂鮮乳啊?不是我想部長你會不會覺得這一幕很荒唐?我想整個的一個牛奶的供應品項大概有鮮乳跟保酒乳那相對的更不要說因為這個政策還排擠到了羊奶現在羊奶業者叫苦連天所有的羊奶落農叫苦連天"},{"start":3432.193,"end":3435.134,"text":"我非常的不能理解說農業部說為什麼不訂鮮奶只差沒有說何不食肉糜啊這真的是充分的宣示了什麼叫做昆庸學校為什麼要選擇煲酒爐就是因為冷鏈沒有跟上腳步啊"},{"start":3450.962,"end":3454.946,"text":"為什麼無法選擇鮮乳因為我們這個農業部說阿里山都有超商了一定可以喝到鮮奶配送絕對不是問題顯見農業部對於乳品的供應鏈非常的陌生這不是你主管的嗎"},{"start":3467.697,"end":3482.008,"text":"怎麼會超商跟學校能比嗎?數量能比嗎?人數能比嗎?這不是說超商可以學校就可以所以喔本席比重我沒有說過這樣的話超商可以學校就可以喔這第一個我在這裡語重心長的告訴部長就是說斑斑有鮮乳的政策會出這麼多的問題最大的原因是什麼?我想你可能也不能理解"},{"start":3493.416,"end":3499.359,"text":"最大的原因就是缺乏橫向溝通你們跟教育部溝通不足嘛你們跟學校溝通不足嘛而且是一意孤行規劃這個政策只坐在辦公室想像結果跟現實完全脫節才會遇到這麼多困難啊"},{"start":3510.365,"end":3528.324,"text":"我想我們現在目前還是希望說每個學校都能夠學生都能夠喝到我們的牛奶為目標然後我們會積極的跟乳廠去做溝通能夠提高另外一個問題你這個政策落實只有大乳廠可以供應你真正要為了要照顧這個紐西蘭"},{"start":3530.826,"end":3531.907,"text":"我想我要跟委員講齁"},{"start":3551.135,"end":3554.818,"text":"我跟妳報告,羊乳的部分我們已經有跟我們現在羊乳的協會在做一個溝通那羊乳有,因為羊乳大概一年只能供應大概一萬"},{"start":3576.295,"end":3583.438,"text":"一萬一萬噸左右那一萬噸的部分他沒有辦法全部所以我們會針對羊乳的部分去推動到其他的一個這很好這很好但是本席要提醒農業部的是任何的政策絕對不能靠想像尤其是這個公糧收購價格我們在討論公糧收購價格你一整本都在講一級二轉三加三我根本不想再吐槽你了你的二轉實施多少年了"},{"start":3605.687,"end":3610.891,"text":"10年了你今天還在告訴我說這個事情是要拿來取代公糧收購價格提高本來的黃金郎道你換一個名字說大輪座就是二轉如果假設這個二轉是可以取代公糧收購制度的話本席也支持你啊問題是你的一級二轉三加三就是新瓶裝舊酒"},{"start":3628.163,"end":3629.544,"text":"我看所有的政策都是在現行的政策之下滾動去檢討 滾動去精進的所以我希望你們能夠支持"},{"start":3651.111,"end":3657.997,"text":"這麼有信心的話你能不能掛保證說一年沒有漲一塊你要下台你有沒有辦法為你的政策負責但是你就是沒有信心嘛你把農民當實驗品我告訴你說跟班喝鮮乳沒有落實只是學童喝不到鮮乳但是你的公糧收購價格因編不編影響了整個總預算你也不痛不癢嘛"},{"start":3679.733,"end":3685.939,"text":"所以現在是整個行政院都在演嗎他們根本不在乎總預算嘛如果假設卓院長在乎總預算的話會放任你每天都來報告一級二轉三加三不來報告公糧收購價格提高嗎我們一級二轉三加三已經在地方推動了大概將近二十幾場了"},{"start":3697.449,"end":3702.371,"text":"我告訴你一堆農民你這個政策跟你斑斑喝鮮乳一樣都是照顧大農不照顧小農我現在跟你講的是小農老農需要照顧我告訴你國治會部長他至少敢講要是拿了補助台電再漲電價的話他就要走人你呢"},{"start":3722.62,"end":3725.602,"text":"你敢不敢為你的政策負責?你每天在講的這個一級二轉三加三你敢為你的政策負責嗎?我本席啊在這裡在告訴你就是說一級二轉三加三這件事情就是一個實驗"},{"start":3738.829,"end":3762.324,"text":"跟斑斑喝鮮乳一樣 我想我們的政策不是用實驗的方式去處理你就是在做實驗嘛你沒有辦法掛保證說他一定一年會長一代你沒有辦法落實照顧到農民我本期建議你並行並行不是告訴你說一級二轉三加三不好是應該一邊照顧農民一邊做這個實驗因為公糧收購一提高了之後你的機關的農民就會互相干擾"},{"start":3764.445,"end":3765.746,"text":"為什麼要為了農業部卡死了整個政府的總預算行政院是什麼態度行政院有沒有告訴你說你要積極的溝通你要積極的調整"},{"start":3793.223,"end":3818.036,"text":"如果沒有的話那行政院到目前為止說他多在乎總預算都是在演戲嘛我今天非常感謝召委能夠安排這樣的一個會議我們可以做一個理性的溝通不是委員不審是你們不依法編列你們不依法編列這才是問題的所在啊委員主決議提高公糧最主要的目的就是提高稻農所得我們也是朝這個方向來做"},{"start":3826.377,"end":3827.82,"text":"好 請林代化委員質詢有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":3838.052,"end":3840.614,"text":"部長在正式質詢之前我想在禮拜一的時候在加拿大有一間飲料公司Boba他正式的道歉他道歉什麼呢是針對我們台灣的珍奶在國際上在創業的節目當中被文化扭曲了而這位漫威演員劉詩牧我們好萊塢的華裔演員他站出來"},{"start":3864.189,"end":3864.469,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":3889.24,"end":3894.885,"text":"農業部絕對支持一級到三級到六級的一個產業也謝謝委員的一個支持"},{"start":3909.714,"end":3909.834,"text":"主席"},{"start":3928.224,"end":3954.666,"text":"這個智慧決策如何根本的解決菜土菜金的問題所以基層農業機構資訊設備老舊不符需求農業部應加速協助更新全面進入農業的AI世代好我這邊有幾個現況在做爬書那農業委員會的這個設備現況是不符合黑I的運用第三個農業多元系統整合跟資訊共用雲端服務的開發"},{"start":3955.367,"end":3971.321,"text":"我講的是非金融的部分第4個面對營收的壓力農會淘汰也就是像太重了就相對的保守本席有一個具體的有些具體的要求好在這個今年的5月29的時候本席也再次提出"},{"start":3972.021,"end":3972.062,"text":"致詢委員"},{"start":3995.356,"end":4003.982,"text":"整個Windows、Windows XP、Windows 7、Windows 8這個時候我們已經這個都停止服務了2014年4月8號、2020、2023到Windows 10還有多少台的這個電腦呢"},{"start":4013.009,"end":4024.817,"text":"1060它是在星期一的時候全面停止了維護日期的好這樣子包括WIN11的我們現在還有427台我現在是針對中南部的141家的農漁會那這樣的結果也就是說75%在農在南部當中75%的電腦資訊是完全漏落問題的"},{"start":4036.284,"end":4053.84,"text":"好那如果今天我要來做更新的話我們Windows 11不需要更新外共有1656部電腦全部要更新我如果用最低等級一台27000這四架大概要花五六千萬但是那個是根本沒有辦法去運"},{"start":4054.861,"end":4055.982,"text":"致早都要符合一台要4萬5這都是立法院的價格"},{"start":4069.858,"end":4073.182,"text":"那這都不包含我這個網路的483台的印表機跟159台的防火牆這我是針對中南部的農業會141家做了盤點所以呢在農業會的資訊設備情況根本不符合AI有6大"},{"start":4084.855,"end":4084.875,"text":"好"},{"start":4103.624,"end":4108.466,"text":"那為了讓我們的農業決策不是只有我要肯定部長的部分你們確實在我幾次的質詢之後在陳其仲主委的時候包括您當部長我非常肯定你們真的在你們的部本部內開始了這個資訊化的智慧化的一個整個雲端系統的一個整合那我們基層的農漁會呢"},{"start":4129.873,"end":4133.496,"text":"如果我基層的農運會沒有辦法在整個系統朝向高運算的這樣的系統你怎麼勾結在有些相關的我們的這個產銷資訊農業的養殖你怎麼勾結你怎麼掌握我的菜土菜金供需失衡的問題"},{"start":4147.848,"end":4169.038,"text":"今天要推這個農業智慧化就解決這個供需失調的問題我想這個是我一再的講這個如果能夠在陳部長您任內能夠完成我的整個雲端智慧化決策智慧化包括基層農業的這個智慧化我想這是真的是根本的解決我們農漁會的菜土菜金的問題供銷失衡的問題"},{"start":4171.179,"end":4182.748,"text":"這個是我真的是覺得是真的是這是我都覺得這個您在任內是已經不負不負不負人民了好所以在這個大數據當中我要有要智慧化就一定要精準的數據"},{"start":4184.463,"end":4206.15,"text":"所以在這個大數據平台建制雲端服務的平台他至少初期先整合採請流程人事資資新資財產匯集保健老龍健保肥料競銷存這是初步這對我們的相關的這個農業的現況就先做了一個掌握了及電子公文等非金融資訊的部分這"},{"start":4207.19,"end":4235.864,"text":"如果我這個資訊共用架構整個農漁會整合在一塊我就可以不要讓單獨的農漁會去做採購硬體自己去自建機房人力設備的營運成本我不需要一家農會自己去做我是整體的農會而且是跟我農業部整合在一塊的所以在雲端服務平台為基礎可進步藉由各農會掌握農漁民的健康保險的制度覆蓋的人口型態"},{"start":4236.744,"end":4237.844,"text":"這也可以提供這個農業智慧會話所需的資訊"},{"start":4265.433,"end":4275.755,"text":"未來我們希望他也一定是得這樣做整合我大器的資訊養種植的區塊養種植的技術等像例如現在的風災我們全面你可以怎麼樣免勘災這個其實我要肯定部長啊您這個從優從簡重塑的部分您這次是真的我們到你這邊縣市政府到你這邊你隔天就合下去做相關的補助而且免勘災的部分這個本是給你最大的肯定所以像這樣災後的重建我也可以利用大數據的平台"},{"start":4295.2,"end":4316.232,"text":"數據給予農民最快速的協助好那為什麼農會 農運會他不願意投入這樣的成本因為根據農會人事的管理辦法第8條我農會每年的總用人人費人的人事費用是按照上年度的總收益也就是我賺的多我才更多用人"},{"start":4316.732,"end":4319.975,"text":"農運會為了增加人力跟留住人才每年的總收益就很重要如果我花大筆的錢去購買資訊設備我總收益就下降我排擠的人事經費我的競爭力當然下降所以在這本席我也主張在幾次的質詢都主張過"},{"start":4339.935,"end":4349.165,"text":"在針對農業部應該參考加薪負擔限制條文30年沒改了因本席要爭取購農漁會的用人費、薪水各組提高10%這是一個編制表好我這邊具體要求有幾項第一個請農業部參考財團法人農漁會南區資訊中心"},{"start":4360.998,"end":4364.541,"text":"盤點這是他們財團法人盤點你自己總要盤點吧你根據他們的資料下去盤點他們盤點快將近快3到5個月我就記得到快要5個月很認真的盤點所以你們那個農糧署應該有一本厚厚他們的計畫書了中南部農業會的資訊老舊設備並嚴靈補助方案解決農業會的資訊設備所衍生的資安的問題"},{"start":4385.64,"end":4396.246,"text":"第二 農業部嚴理農業會資訊系統共用平台發展的計畫．那此相關的資料能互動有效提升農業會的經營效能第三 請農業部省慎評估農業人士的管理辦法．爭取各農業會的用人費．薪水各組提高10%那部長你怎麼看"},{"start":4409.727,"end":4428.463,"text":"非常簡要的回答委員的一些要求第一個部分就是農業部在推動農業的數位服務裡面那非常感謝委員這樣的一個規劃跟提示那我們大概分為兩個部分一個是硬體的部分一個是軟體的部分那硬體的部分要包括資訊中心"},{"start":4429.804,"end":4429.944,"text":"這我也認同"},{"start":4446.375,"end":4451.817,"text":"我認同,但是你一定要全面性,不要那種計劃型你只要就針對我141家整個中南部所有的農業會我沒有意見,但是至少我南部的部分已經做好準備了"},{"start":4462.281,"end":4481.727,"text":"部長我已經做好準備了沒有人我花了快到3到5個月不等另外有一些像印表機等他不是用買用租的反而會更有效率所以這個我們會跟他們溝通但是你支不支持這樣的計畫我們容易會多元系統的整合跟資訊共享你支持嗎一個月提出來好嗎一個月來回覆我針對我本席今天所執行的部分好謝謝"},{"start":4495.239,"end":4495.739,"text":"請求議員委員諮詢請陳部長"},{"start":4518.773,"end":4536.571,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想今天這個召委再度排定讓您來報告這個有關公糧收購價格提高這件事情那我記得當時上個會期結束前在立法院表決的時候我是代表民進黨黨團上來發言"},{"start":4539.033,"end":4557.547,"text":"原則上我是反對公糧收購價格提高,現在的公糧,這個部長我想請教一下,今年的公糧種植面積是多少?跟去年相比起來?大概24萬公頃左右,比去年多1萬多公頃"},{"start":4560.649,"end":4560.669,"text":"來 這個部長"},{"start":4590.206,"end":4593.86,"text":"糧食自給率已經創下新低,您同意吧?"},{"start":4595.827,"end":4622.945,"text":"吃稻米的這個量也是歷史上的新低吃蔬菜的量也是歷史上的新低反而現在大家吃了很多的肉類所以台灣的稻米產量過剩這個是不爭的事實我們的吃米的量其實是非常少再加上種植公糧所以你每年會產生大量的純糧"},{"start":4625.186,"end":4642.157,"text":"每年大概20萬公噸基本最少那好玩的來囉全球都在缺米結果台灣的稻米產量是過剩日本大缺米日本在鬧白米荒他的庫存量是17年來最低"},{"start":4643.536,"end":4659.107,"text":"市長有沒有想過我們現在一直講說我們的水果可以外銷日本外銷到其他的國家去如果台灣的糧食問題台灣的米糧的存貨是多的話有沒有可能我們來鼓勵農民"},{"start":4661.209,"end":4662.05,"text":"如果這個誘因再給他提高"},{"start":4676.939,"end":4697.775,"text":"讓更多人願意去種植優質米讓更多人願意把這樣的好的台灣米銷到世界各國去甚至當比較久的這些所謂的公糧米你如果能夠送到開發中的國家去或者是有一些需要物資救援的國家去你其實可以做好事不用說30塊20幾塊買來的公糧把他打造齊了10塊又賣不出去"},{"start":4702.83,"end":4721.997,"text":"部長您同意我的建議嗎?我想謝謝委員的提醒跟指正我想分兩個部分公糧的部分我們盡可能的不要讓它變成飼料米所以我們會針對一些原住的或是其他的部分第二個部分就是您剛才講的很重要的一點就是稻米其實也是可以外銷的"},{"start":4722.637,"end":4732.783,"text":"但是外銷一定要有比較好的一個品牌跟品質這是非常重要的所以我才一直強調我們的優質米比如說我們的美濃147米時尚米等等台灣優質的米我們的這個農改所裡頭大家這個專家研發出來好的這些稻米我覺得就趁這個機會把它推銷出去嘛我們不用一直在這裡講說哎呀公糧收購公糧的價格要提高多少其實我們是應該鼓勵優質的"},{"start":4754.938,"end":4770.613,"text":"我非常同意我們的政策目標也是讓農民變成從量的重視變成質的重視這樣的話後續的品牌米跟U值的米才能夠有機會不只是供應給國內的也可以外交到其他的國家"},{"start":4771.013,"end":4797.271,"text":"所以如果公糧的收購價格不提高我覺得你從另外一個方式去下手讓更多的農民受惠我覺得農業部要一直不斷的去讓大家知道現在一直在講公糧的收購價格提高公糧的收購價格提高5塊錢你受益的人數大概了不起12萬是占全體農民49萬50萬裡頭只有占大概"},{"start":4801.313,"end":4817.606,"text":"五分之一只有12萬人受益但是你的預算增加要增加91億到116億這個是看你的種植面積你必須增加這麼多的預算那你現在推的所謂的一級二轉3加3"},{"start":4818.627,"end":4821.749,"text":"你可以受惠到22.5萬的稻農,但是你只要花16.5億,就可以讓22萬的稻農都受到幫助。"},{"start":4834.574,"end":4859.577,"text":"我不知道這個計算為什麼大家會聽不懂然後剛剛有很多的委員或者是說等一下可能國民黨的委員還會再上來問你我想要請教雲林嘉義種植的雜糧雜糧的價格幾年沒調整了雜糧的農民要不要要不要照顧他們不敢提這一塊台中彰化的花卉花農要不要照顧不敢提這一塊"},{"start":4860.658,"end":4870.764,"text":"你只把全部的錢都放在公糧收購5塊錢,但是得到好處是誰?糧商、帶耕業者、肥料業者。農民真的有收到好處嗎?沒有啊。你的公糧收購價格多5塊錢。"},{"start":4880.513,"end":4907.114,"text":"帶耕業者的帶耕成本就會增加工錢就會增加嘛肥料就會增加嘛你所有的人工成本都會增加嘛但是你實際的農民你有沒有拿到多身家的錢沒有耶所以我覺得這個觀念的轉變齁其實是很重要的我們如何讓最小的預算花下去能夠照顧最多的農民這個才是政府應該要做的事情不是嗎你要花116億結果只有照顧12萬人"},{"start":4909.215,"end":4926.862,"text":"這12萬人還不見得是他們真的拿到錢你花了16.5億你可以照顧到22.5萬的人然後你還可以增加台灣的糧食自給率你還可以讓台灣的優質稻米輸出你還可以增加台灣的好民生甚至創造台灣的外匯"},{"start":4929.095,"end":4949.984,"text":"所以我不太懂得他們是怎麼計算所以我是公開反對公糧收購價格還要再增加5塊那我也公開反對要利用這樣子去綁架政府的總預算甚至綁架所有的農業預算如果口口聲聲說照顧農民的話你更不應該綁架這個預算"},{"start":4951.765,"end":4971.852,"text":"部長這一題我跟您討論到這邊接下來我要跟您討論到國土計劃法上次我們討論到這個農業部要推所謂的堆疊式的給付政策你們原來講說9月的時候就要公布這個堆疊式的給付內容可是到現在10月了還沒有看到是不是在中間有遇到什麼問題可不可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":4972.557,"end":4995.833,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們在對賊是己夫的部分在內部已經規劃好了那規劃好我們會預計會在這個月就開始會對外的去做一些座談跟溝通我們不希望說我們設計完了以後就去做說明,我們希望說在溝通的過程中有哪一些先到地方上去做說明,先到地方上去做說明,然後聽取一些意見再做調整"},{"start":4997.054,"end":5020.037,"text":"我們已經有了初步的一個規劃了所以我們近期就會啟動這樣的一個方式那你的這個所謂的堆疊式補助他應該不會是跟國土計畫法綁在一起的吧對他應該是假如說你的整體規劃完成他是可行的是不是應該會是在國土計畫法上路之前就開始對於農地有做這樣子的堆疊式的補助"},{"start":5020.578,"end":5020.758,"text":"請張棋凱委員質詢"},{"start":5077.523,"end":5090.651,"text":"請農業部長請陳部長委員好今天在討論公糧這個價格已經13年沒有調整我先問你一個軍工價包括你這13年你調薪調了幾次我沒有去算"},{"start":5102.728,"end":5126.414,"text":"加薪加到都幾次都自己不曉得啊農民13年一次都沒有不會太可憐嗎我想公糧是目前全世界唯一有公糧保障價格的收入對啊你之前有這個他相對的他不是一個因為你只調公糧的時候那對其他的產業他是不公平的其他可以一起照顧啊主席我先問你問清楚你知道嗎你這13年農民一毛不拔的時候"},{"start":5130.117,"end":5154.582,"text":"你已經調薪調了4次你明年1月1號你要調薪對不對你明年要調13年來的第5次農民情何以堪你是農業部長農業部所有的官員你不是應該照顧農民嗎你們自己加了5次加了17%喔你們好意思你們臉都不會紅燒農民的公糧收購一碼錢都不要增加"},{"start":5155.762,"end":5171.334,"text":"好意思嗎?我在跟你講,部長,不是只有你們的薪水問題基本工資,農民也是要請人工,對不對?基本工資,13年,調了12次上漲了43%這個要調跟物價有關係嘛,對不對?農民也是人啊,也要過一季啊物價調了多少?"},{"start":5183.189,"end":5208.876,"text":"價值數上漲至少15% 農作業成本最少15% 因為你的薪水到德國的薪水 基本工資到物價為什麼不幫農民呢 農民要給他們賺錢你現在變成一個怎麼樣 保證來 我跟你講 現在我去電話跟你們講 民間是生的啦民間是生的 人家現在有問兩個問題嘛 你自己丟 為什麼你沒丟 但是 你知道嗎 吃米不知道米多少齁"},{"start":5213.362,"end":5219.049,"text":"你現在說不夠農民的思維是不是?我問你一下,你懂嗎?你懂嗎?來,我問你,農民叫我問你的啦,否定?你什麼農民現在很丟臉,一分錢可以賺多少錢?"},{"start":5228.627,"end":5240.433,"text":"一公斤一公斤差不多6到8萬6到8萬左右好一點的話7萬到8萬二期做的話大概4到6萬你不要看他的看你自己農業部的下面的資料是你農業部的你農糧食的資料喔"},{"start":5257.845,"end":5282.178,"text":"一公頃實際能夠生產的你甘股一分地能夠生產的錢多少?一百一千一百二十二塊而已如果大部分的農民現在是租地對不對有沒有?把租地放進去你看喔我現在給你看的時候都怕被租了喔不然你自己看喔把租地的成本再放進去一公頃如果是兩萬四的話一公頃喔"},{"start":5283.644,"end":5305.939,"text":"農民辛辛苦苦 種一期 今年一期的稻作一公頃 你看身分要多多少 你看15萬 你先看 你先看 你先聽我講 這是你農業部的資料啦不是 他的那個實際生產成本已經包括了租地已經放進去了對啊 不然對啊阿這邊你又加了一個租地 重複加了什麼重複加 這是你農業部的 農業部的聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽"},{"start":5313.839,"end":5321.687,"text":"一公頃十三萬兩千零九十九塊,把租金放進去,都加了兩萬四千三百二十七塊。"},{"start":5331.476,"end":5332.636,"text":"農業部的稅率你回去對一下"},{"start":5358.966,"end":5372.415,"text":"這是農民發生的,我已經找很多農民的東西都會算出來,一分錢差不多可以讓新聞開發一個集,包括肥料,包括施工,包括電子,你看,裡面一個大宗,你看右邊這張圖,農民那是很可憐的"},{"start":5375.816,"end":5382.799,"text":"你光是那個1到3月電費就要花了多少錢?1萬2,3到5月電費是2萬1,你看電費最近13年,電費已經漲了多少了?電費我們有補貼啊有補貼,可是老實講也是漲對不對?這個就是成本之一嘛,我聽你說,來來,這是先噴嘛,來你看下一張"},{"start":5393.792,"end":5398.995,"text":"一公頃收入大概只有17萬多來我們看下一張你把他收入的錢減掉他自己的成本這很簡單嘛這是國小的數學題嘛五點你看一下一公頃收入"},{"start":5421.294,"end":5447.57,"text":"不可以半年喔 一期到我們要忙半年喔 收入一公頃只有15萬多支出15萬多 收入只有17萬多 如果你把它變成是一分地 一分地你看 收入17萬多 支出只有15萬多而已所以啦 整個說一句話啦 保證 剩一分地啦 不可以整半年 半年喔 忙半年"},{"start":5449.278,"end":5466.551,"text":"那個賺的錢啊連紅白包一包都不夠不然你如果去吃火鍋你的紅包你至少要包個兩三千對不對農民辛辛苦苦賺半年沒人半年賺不到兩千塊欸只賺到多少一千七百零七十九塊欸"},{"start":5469.571,"end":5495.662,"text":"這個數據跟我們統計的數據差得非常多,這第一個你算多少?你算多少?你一分錢,你告訴我,你能收多少?我用一公頃,就是除以十啦我不要這是一期做還是二期做,一期做的話大概六到八萬然後二期做到四到六萬然後如果齁,我昨天來特別請我們統計針對農家收入所得提到的純粹繳公糧的收益"},{"start":5496.542,"end":5498.804,"text":"一分多就四千啦一分多就四萬啦一分多就四萬啦"},{"start":5526.926,"end":5533.128,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 農民的一個收益 讓全國的民眾 讓全國的民眾去公平 農業部長說我們農民忙了半年 沒人幾百年 他兩千塊的四千塊是有夠的"},{"start":5555.395,"end":5569.646,"text":"有嗎?我跟委員報告齁,農民的收益一定是靠產品的優質化去提高價格而不是用政府的資金去貼他的部分優質化你在上面一急二轉,你去做嘛這個是一個非常重要的觀念現在就是有這麼多人要靠這個過一年,現在就是貪無吃啊"},{"start":5572.83,"end":5595.577,"text":"所以我們現在推了一級二準參加在希望說能夠提高他的所得因為這個數據有問題我覺得會誤導你跟我的落差好,我說兩兩千塊都不到嘛你說可能有三四千,我只要講就是用你的四千塊,我一期不是對的啦我再說一期做是六到八千,二期做是四到六千"},{"start":5596.297,"end":5624.553,"text":"加起來是差不多一萬你講話要對農民要負責我負責這是我們的統計數據來講政治問題沒有人幾百年賺紅白包就一百百不夠啦阿你講話也多兩包而已啦說實在的農民是要怎麼考慮你讓他倒三天你做農業不定的我剛剛切進來你自己都在加薪了你1月1號馬上要加薪為什麼不能我這樣公園加薪公公園的時候不是那是兩碼子的事情欸我們不能這樣比對啊"},{"start":5626.733,"end":5645.763,"text":"你自動放棄你的加薪你若不在意這個的話你加薪你放棄可不可以你放棄我都跟你放棄阿你憑啥加薪對吧不是你憑啥加薪這是兩件事情嘛政府的加薪跟農民公糧因為公糧是少部分的公費阿你放棄你的加薪好不好我如果今天提高五塊農民拍拍手就結束了對產業是沒有進步的阿"},{"start":5653.863,"end":5679.897,"text":"現在我剛才很理性跟你講支出跟成本對不對我現在跟你講另外一個事情你今天站在這裡你不只不要站在農民的對立面你也不要站在立法院的對立面我問你一下你現在是不是見到113席立委的共識跟決議那天表決的時候多少人有沒有人反對邱毅英剛才在那裡說什麼邱毅英那天有沒有人反對"},{"start":5685.99,"end":5708.02,"text":"主決議提高五塊,他背後的目的就是希望盜農提高所得嘛那我們同樣提高盜農所得,我們用另外一個方式來執行,也是達到委員的目的嘛所以你要幫忙嘛,你讓他維持那基本的生活所需啊是不是這樣?這是第一個事情,我現在跟你講的"},{"start":5709.601,"end":5735.875,"text":"你為什麼當農業部長?你是中華民國的農業部長,你要遵守台灣的民主法治啊!所以我要照顧的是所有的產業,不是只有公糧的這些人!外地人說的事情,第一個他是有潛力可行的,一百年調高的一公斤,調高三塊錢,立法院做的決議,一百年,民國一百年的時候,立法院做的決議,行政部門就編了嘛,對不對?你有潛力可行,這是第一類嘛!第一類是民主化的社會!"},{"start":5740.624,"end":5754.438,"text":"那天我代表臺灣民眾黨提的這個案子每公斤調高26塊錢我們是要加速整個產業這個升級要照顧到我們的農民喔那天表決你看那天韓國瑜韓主席都請問議員會照臺灣民眾黨黨團跟國民黨黨團修正動議通過每公斤調高5塊錢有沒有意義"},{"start":5763.288,"end":5786.6,"text":"大家看一下那天的標刊這是立法院的公文書一個立法院反對都沒有包括民進黨的立法委員你現在不只站在農業對立面你現在站在所有立委的對立面而且我剛剛跟你講了一百年都照做了你為什麼不做有潛力可行第二個立法院通過的這是法治社會你憑什麼沒得做"},{"start":5788.308,"end":5789.589,"text":"我沒有另外一個方式來支持盜農的所得"},{"start":5813.766,"end":5815.707,"text":"你現在不是對立委喔你現在是對民意、對農民、對台灣的法治社會啊立法院以前就是這樣運作的啊結果你反其道而行"},{"start":5840.799,"end":5868.869,"text":"破壞了臺灣的民主跟法治欸我想以農業部的立場就是要讓我們的產業能夠持續的進去這個案子立法院通過了而且當天一個人反對都沒有阿你不想做阿立法院就關起來阿你還是保證你想農民不會照顧嗎我們一直在照顧農民我們用另外一個方式來照顧農民的我跟你講剛剛邱委員一直在講你有雙軌嘛"},{"start":5870.578,"end":5892.323,"text":"立法院的決議這是法治問題,台灣是法治的社會,民主的社會,你不要去過,又有潛力可行,你趕快編,這是一個,你一直在講你一級二轉,我跟你說,我去政客說聽不懂啦,因為二轉你轉十幾年了轉不動啊,好啦,我轉兩年,你自己有專業,但你這雙軌啊,你少跟便利商啊,變完以後你去推你一級二轉,3加3"},{"start":5895.387,"end":5918.075,"text":"你三年在街上看,你繼續做嘛,看人民、農民有贊同你嘛,我們今天說的不是完全超過農民的,這是整個台灣民主社會你現在去推翻了台灣的這個法制,你以為日本人要開會嗎?我今天做這個卦定,你現在不會理我嗎?啊日本人不關起來,我問你這件事不定,你不遵守"},{"start":5921.885,"end":5941.772,"text":"我所瞭解的就是說在立法院本身的決議裡面如果可以要求我們因為預算是我們來編的那如果說有講到這個經費的部分的話我們必須要好好的評估這樣子一個決議是不是對我們的產業是有幫助我們的預算都是通過立法院審查的我們任何的決議你都可以推翻嘛是不是這個意思"},{"start":5949.195,"end":5967.147,"text":"我沒有這個意思我沒有這個意思你要不只重視地方你要重視台灣的民主發地我告訴你一百年是怎樣一百年過就變了那就是發地的精神嘛轉世紀那種國會過的東西行政部門又把它推翻你在害台灣啦說實在的"},{"start":5968.478,"end":5990.36,"text":"我做個折衷趕快編這個也是現在總預算要解決總預算要三個嘛原住民的精華條例要處理嘛通常其實請你接這個也沒有多少錢啊你看台電一下撥補一千億你要給人家你那個雞蛋一下浪費了十億啊裡面浪費還很多我們會大砍會嚴格監督的你砍下來的錢都足夠去給農民了啦"},{"start":5991.852,"end":6020.4,"text":"好不好我做折衷方案趕快編然後你去推你的那個一級二轉看農民到底要不要接受啦好不好我還要加油啦各位知道人家都說你故意啊結果你故意的東西你的尊重發低啊你不能夠一直在農民的對立面一直在我們絕對不會站在農民的對立面我們一定會用實際的行動去支持產業的發展對啊所以你用你的一級二轉3加3你一面子嘛可是這個是立法院牽扯到臺灣的民宿發低捏"},{"start":6022.421,"end":6022.561,"text":"請鄭政權委員質詢"},{"start":6050.521,"end":6052.424,"text":"呃謝謝主席我想找一下那個陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":6061.471,"end":6079.297,"text":"部長好,公糧收購本來是對農民有益,對於台灣糧食安全有一個保障的狀態,結果現在處理成感覺好像變成一個政治問題了。那部長我先簡單問你一下,那個山頭和颱風的時候,到目前為止的時候有多少的農損?"},{"start":6081.007,"end":6081.527,"text":"新竹市有兩千多萬"},{"start":6110.401,"end":6112.083,"text":"新竹市是多少?金額多少?"},{"start":6122.13,"end":6141.936,"text":"我可能會有再提供喔 因為我請你查一下那我再問你一下喔 凱米颱風的時候 總共的那個農損大概金額是多少大概是20 現在速報提出來是26億吧 有沒有資料給我啊部長是36億 那凱米颱風裡面有多少是新竹市的農損"},{"start":6144.81,"end":6168.049,"text":"這個我可能還要再查你之後再跟我講一下我為什麼特別一開始提這個問題因為我發現我看到農損資料當中的時候其實都沒有新竹市的資料那有可能一個狀態是新竹市本來就不是農業大縣所以我看到你這邊提出來的一個農業部對於公糧收購的部分你提出了"},{"start":6169.179,"end":6194.904,"text":"一級二轉三加三這個部分你做了一個很清楚的一個比較我很認真的去看了一下可是我發現你裡面也是在玩數字遊戲那就把公糧收購講得很不堪那你剛剛也提到說全世界現在只剩台灣有公糧收購如果農業部真的覺得公糧收購這麼不應該的時候就取消嘛農業部有這個權責去做這個事情可是目前在做的時候呢整個立法院已經通過"},{"start":6197.005,"end":6217.378,"text":"113席委員會通過這個組決議的時候呢然後農業部完全不甩然後在這裡面把這個公糧收購講得很差啊就是說講到說整個會讓糧價短多長空然後會造成那個百米價格上漲造成民生衝擊民生消費然後講到說不利到"},{"start":6217.978,"end":6218.458,"text":"部長我讓你看一個東西"},{"start":6250.08,"end":6266.221,"text":"你知道那個對地綠色環境給付計畫你知道這個計畫吧對不對這個計畫我想請教一下部長他一開始裡面也有一個很大的一個目標就是希望能夠"},{"start":6267.651,"end":6270.113,"text":"這幾戶整個的話是totally大概是100億"},{"start":6292.568,"end":6311.416,"text":"對地綠色環境給付計畫他的整個經費來源是來自於農產品受進口損害救助基金一百億我不知道你的數字從哪裡我今天問了幾個數字部長你都沒有給我一個很清楚的數字我看到第一期從107年到110年整個預算基本是381.72億"},{"start":6317.93,"end":6318.553,"text":"你怎麼會只講這100億那另外280億到哪裡去"},{"start":6324.516,"end":6350.453,"text":"這107到110大概是4年期的計畫4年的期的計畫那我剛剛說的大概大概是100億左右因為一年100億左右大概一年100億左右一年100億左右嘛齁第二期當中所以111年到114年目前還在第二期當中的時候總共是469.88億一年超過100億一年超過100億嘛對不對還有一個環境基本給付包括環境基本給付的部分理解齁一年超過100億嘛齁然後"},{"start":6353.325,"end":6378.032,"text":"部長你知道嗎在整個對地綠色環境給付計畫裡面平均每年我先把它算出來到目前為止平均每年有74.87億元獎勵金用在鼓勵轉作用在鼓勵轉作這個就是這一次我們在講公糧收購很重要的一個部分你提到一級二轉三加三這個裡面很大一部分就是希望就是"},{"start":6379.721,"end":6395.59,"text":"道米耕作的範圍不要太大然後我們看一下從106年到112年公糧到股那個收購的數量跟決算經費收購的量在這個地方收購量106、107、108、109持續的上漲可是我們從107年開始的時候這個對地綠色環境給付計畫就開始進行了"},{"start":6404.735,"end":6405.055,"text":"我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":6427.501,"end":6444.954,"text":"一百年開始我們推的四選三的部分就是四級稻作種三期所以我們盡量的把那個稻作面積往下降的時候所以公糧收購數量才會往下降是理由之一所以我要講一下狀態就是以我們現在每一年還有74億75億用在"},{"start":6449.596,"end":6457.775,"text":"對地綠色環境給付這個地方要轉做這個部分坦白說我看到這個部分按照你們之前提出來的預算"},{"start":6459.963,"end":6488.962,"text":"每公斤上漲5塊錢的預算大概只增加14.46億你們原本提出來預算本來就有一個公糧收購預算再加14.46億就可以達到就是112年的標準如果按照109年的高標準來說的時候是增加27.30億其實坦白說對於整個明年你們所提出來的總預算當中的時候增加其實都非常的有限所以我覺得"},{"start":6490.307,"end":6490.549,"text":"感覺上"},{"start":6492.455,"end":6520.141,"text":"公糧收購價格,農業部不願意提高我覺得已經不是很直接是一個農業上面的問題而變成一個政治上的問題所以剛剛為什麼很多委員提到說整個立法院裡面113席委員通過的一個決議你們都不願意遵守我跟委員報告我們我們剛才您所提的一些包括環境基本幾乎對地預設幾乎其實都是在希望水稻的面積不要增加"},{"start":6521.457,"end":6538.115,"text":"當我們用很多的力量去想辦法壓低水稻的面積的時候我另一方面如果提高公糧價格的時候就會造成我過往的所有的投入效果都不見了部長你提這個部分其實坦白說我是能夠理解聽得進去的"},{"start":6539.136,"end":6540.377,"text":"新竹的部分我們有查到大概二十幾萬各十百千萬次"},{"start":6567.247,"end":6586.06,"text":"大概21萬3千多是其他產業的一個損失OK 這個部分你之後再來跟我報告因為我看到所有資料當中我只是要提高提高提出一個觀點就是說我們在看這個預算我們有一個客觀的標準在看那我沒有坦白說我沒有農民選民的一個壓力"},{"start":6587,"end":6600.448,"text":"所以我在看這個部分我聽得進去你講的東西可是我也看到你提出不合理的狀態你在玩數字遊戲對於整個公糧收購的部分的時候你就是打死不願意去做提出很多的理由可是對我來說我把這個"},{"start":6603.386,"end":6619.794,"text":"對綠對地綠色環境幾乎計畫拿來做個比較你會發現有怎麼樣的不合理如果說部長這邊要做更多的說明就是之後再到本辦公室來做一個細部通訊好不好但我們認為立法院通過的決議行政部門一定要尊重一定要遵守齁"},{"start":6620.794,"end":6620.814,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6657.577,"end":6658.098,"text":"李玉琳委員陳部長"},{"start":6672.244,"end":6690.367,"text":"副部長本席今天特別排了這個議題就是要好好的研究在我們政府在執行政策的時候有自愛難行所有的效益沒有辦法照顧到你這個政策的所有的人手我們必須要研議來再修改"},{"start":6690.968,"end":6715.341,"text":"才能夠讓我們的政策能讓大家都能夠受惠這是我們最大的一個努力的方向所以今天必須要討論在討論的時候我請部長先從大的層面來看起不要一直把你的政策嚴格執行下去所以我們立委是嚴格的監督就是要讓你把所有政策能夠執行到最下面好不好"},{"start":6716.121,"end":6738.982,"text":"所以剛剛部長特別講到就是說我們農地有租賃的這個地的價格但是除了這個以外因為地是農民他們從祖先留下來的耕作的農地是不會改變的我們不去計算這個價格但是現在為什麼要公糧調整就是生產的成本它有哪些成本呢"},{"start":6740.222,"end":6757.908,"text":"肥料、農藥、央苗還有待耕的機器還有最重要的是這個央苗不能用機器化一定要人來做一個央苗的培育才有辦法而且工資又被調整了現在從日薪從1500條高到2000元割稻機也漲到30幾萬在這種種的情形之下"},{"start":6765.58,"end":6786.52,"text":"老公基本工資調了豬肉價格調了雞蛋價格調了中油的價格調了台電雖然虧損但是他也調了為什麼公糧13年不能調就是不能調你剛剛所講的因為供過於求"},{"start":6788.223,"end":6801.755,"text":"因為你的稻穀盛產所以你要控制那本席想請問你休耕一年兩期你現在休耕一年幾期以前是兩期現在呢一期"},{"start":6802.862,"end":6819.692,"text":"為什麼?你鼓勵耕作那你鼓勵耕作的話你要轉做你的123政策本席也支持照顧農民的權益本席支持因為農民是最辛苦的你剛剛特別計算到半年的時間他們的收成成本扣掉後收入6萬塊7萬塊現在基本工資多少錢?"},{"start":6828.393,"end":6845.664,"text":"半年時間6個月他一個月平均下來多少錢將心比心做到部長這個位置農業部你有苦民所苦嗎道民這麼辛苦座長的時候陳吉仲說讓農民賺一點點嘛淡商有淡荒的時候淡的價格調弄多少錢"},{"start":6852.932,"end":6860.497,"text":"我們為了讓全民每天有蛋吃也讓你調了現在道農苦哈哈要求你調整"},{"start":6866.108,"end":6884.877,"text":"現在公糧收購價錢是26塊施糧是多少錢平均21、22塊所以我們反映市場機制希望公糧去帶動著施糧你不希望大家來攪公糧沒有問題現在全國的公糧土地面積24萬到27萬公頃但是部長數字遊戲不是這樣玩的"},{"start":6892.591,"end":6900.604,"text":"你收購公糧的價格不是全部的24、27公頃而是有限量的只有10%"},{"start":6902.236,"end":6922.915,"text":"只有30%這就是你們的大約只有收購7公頃而已這是有限量的你對公糧的收購是有限量的有限量的所以並不是你在27公頃乘以5塊錢就要上百億"},{"start":6923.854,"end":6936.405,"text":"不是這樣計算的你的123政策的時候為什麼只有16.5億而已呢所以部長在你來拜訪我的時候我也請你好好的來計算"},{"start":6937.952,"end":6966.559,"text":"如果你做這個公糧的限量收購目前這樣子收購的話大概20億到22億但是你說周邊要花掉的上百億我也請你把明確的政策做出來但是今天你的報告這一二三政策已經執行十幾年了我們都支持但是一二三政策執行的時候他是照顧了什麼生產環境"},{"start":6969.434,"end":6970.515,"text":"我跟你們報告第一點的部分"},{"start":6990.287,"end":7016.161,"text":"我們現在目前看起來剛才委員說的成本提高但是相對的在這10年來他的產量也提高所以我們算過了就是實際的相對的影響大概是到2%到3%而不是10%這第一個說明第二個說明我們一直希望引導稻農能夠更優質的產品去提高他的售價來支撐他的所得而不是用政府的"},{"start":7017.321,"end":7040.638,"text":"所以有私糧阿現在私糧價格多少錢現在私糧如果是汽桌的話是26到29左右你們給我的資料怎麼不是沒有我找出來要的資料資料都2122而已阿所以你把公糧價格提高就會帶動私糧私糧提高之後的話大家去找私糧而且全部他們生產的私糧會用汽桌的方式在你123政策不抵觸你環座區域"},{"start":7043.36,"end":7043.38,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":7061.01,"end":7061.51,"text":"不是這兩件事情"},{"start":7088.678,"end":7088.919,"text":"現在太多腦農了"},{"start":7098.578,"end":7124.017,"text":"部長你要考慮到現在很多老農年輕人沒有加入那你的休耕又從兩次一年兩次改成一次硬要他們來轉作轉作的話你又要求不能一期的做這個二期又再做這個一期做這個二期要再去轉作別的不管是雜糧還是什麼的但是你知道嗎你會耕田嗎你會耕作嗎你知不知道你要轉作的時候要翻土"},{"start":7124.998,"end":7139.926,"text":"翻土要多大的工人跟成本跟時間啊要翻土去做你翻土再去做的話第二年又再改換所以這個政策有一個在我們這自愛難行的地方本席跟你討論部長你要聽進去"},{"start":7143.164,"end":7156.539,"text":"我非常謝謝那個委員的指正那水岸田輪作其實就是一個非常有效的能夠維持地利的部分然後第二個您剛才講的就是公糧有限制你只要符合資格你就可以來繳公糧"},{"start":7159.082,"end":7160.222,"text":"最重要的是水稻是打電話種水稻的"},{"start":7180.009,"end":7195.058,"text":"我把重要的都告訴你有困難的還有現實面的問題都告訴你請你回去研議一定要落實照顧農民權益好不好會 這個一定我們一定會做到那第二個本期要跟你討論的就是斑斑有鮮奶"},{"start":7196.289,"end":7214.917,"text":"現在斑斑有限來的這個情形在我們桃園來講的話在全國來講幾乎75%都轉做這個薄酒爐的那你要照顧的弱農有照顧到嗎還是去照顧女性來為他們先把路鋪好來未來他們進來的時候可以空開的使用薄酒爐"},{"start":7215.757,"end":7244.136,"text":"我跟委員報告齁現在全台灣國產的生乳大概是47.2到48萬噸然後學童營養用的乳量大概是2萬噸左右所以不管是鮮乳跟薄酒乳他都同樣能夠照顧到我們的肉農第一點那第二點就是鮮乳本身保存不易就是生產段他都會用冷卻的方式你當時在執行這個政策的時候你會想到鮮奶保存不易那學校沒有這麼多的冷藏的冰櫃所以"},{"start":7245.517,"end":7246.918,"text":"可是切的量太大了那提升也來不及了"},{"start":7270.014,"end":7274.035,"text":"部長你如果了解問題冷藏需要冷藏沒有這個設備還有我們的量我們鮮奶的量不足的話那可不可以說我們發行鮮奶券讓他們直接到超商去兌換"},{"start":7293.168,"end":7296.951,"text":"我跟委員報告齁我們未來如果新推出的一個新的方案"},{"start":7308.599,"end":7312.44,"text":"最重要的是要照顧我們本土的酪農所以未來如果紐西蘭的那個保酒爐長效爐進來的時候因為我們是要補助給酪農對不對"},{"start":7330.885,"end":7334.446,"text":"對,我們有一個方案我們有一個方案去協助對,我們所有的乳品的部分一定是一定要百分之百國產的然後第二個就是"},{"start":7347.532,"end":7347.832,"text":"希望趕快解決這問題"},{"start":7374.173,"end":7375.234,"text":"這個學期我們會針對已經訂單的部分我們會盡量去確保他的學童能夠喝到牛奶"},{"start":7383.294,"end":7412.211,"text":"我想我們不是只針對鮮乳去做演藝我們剛才說的我們的目標就是下一屆如果要再繼續推的話一定讓學校不然現在大家都又喝飽酒乳了啊不我們會再去溝通齁就是如果能夠第一個把鮮乳跟飽酒乳現在的那個比例能夠做適當的溝通可是不只要在這邊保證他們是一週喝兩次你不會量少的時候改成一週喝一次喔不能改喔沒有我們持續的會跟乳廠去做一個溝通增加產能"},{"start":7412.831,"end":7412.851,"text":"請陳部長"},{"start":7442.745,"end":7464.247,"text":"委員 部長好 延續一下剛剛班班有先入的政策我想要請教一下第一個問題是前幾天我們卓院長也說當初推這個政策的時候有點太倉促然後沒有思慮欠舟那就開始有校長學校的國中小的校長開始擔心是不是要轉向是不是要取消這個政策我想要請教一下會持續執行嗎"},{"start":7465.402,"end":7468.625,"text":"反映部長我知道,但是你後面我一直說未來會持續堅持把這個政策做好嗎?"},{"start":7483.776,"end":7486.739,"text":"部長請問當初這個斑斑有鮮乳的政策是你們農業部發起還是教育部提議的是誰發起的"},{"start":7507.56,"end":7525.286,"text":"我想在一開始的時候大概是兩年多前就開始有這樣子一個規劃那在規劃的過程中我們是針對酪農產業特別是國產的應該是我們跟我們有一些想法在跟教育部溝通跟教育部一起溝通一起努力執行那剛剛為什麼又說他其實影響不大"},{"start":7533.018,"end":7535.961,"text":"這兩個事情就是說有些人外界來批評說我們是為了去化而把這個牛奶送到學校"},{"start":7556.94,"end":7577.239,"text":"好那沒關係沒關係那我們現在知道了就是基本上我們也認同就是輔導我們國內的酪農產業但是喔鮮乳的生產排程至少要一年但是你們想要在這個短短兩三個月內完成結果就陷入這個冷氣房政策不僅沒有加匯到這個酪農產業反倒是小酪農跟養乳產業先被這個政策弄死部長"},{"start":7578.499,"end":7599.95,"text":"這個農業部是真的要輔導保護弱農產業嗎?因為包含我們的這個弱農這個協會理事長也表示依照嘉義開辦這個類似政策15年的經驗總結先乳行前一瓶是18元但農業部的保酒乳你們是開每一瓶14元然後先乳每瓶16元那基本上就是中央訂定的價格實在太低了"},{"start":7600.43,"end":7618.47,"text":"考量到這個飼料、牧草、冷鏈運輸成本等等他們認為每瓶鮮乳至少要19元才算合格所以現在看起來不僅是沒有配套除了那個什麼冷鏈的問題啦等等的沒有配套之外從一開始招聘、招標的價格就不合理是不是可以請我們農業部和交易部一併檢討這個部分"},{"start":7619.571,"end":7640.284,"text":"我想後續的政策在推動的時候我們包括價格包括配中的方式包括方式我們都會統一的來做一個好的完整所以我要提議這個部分就是請你們回去檢討之外其實我們國人的這個乳糖苦耐症比例高達88%所以其實也可以輔導像有一些產品是不含乳糖的這種乳品所以這部分是可以思考還有剛剛的這個牛奶兌換券請你們"},{"start":7642.385,"end":7659.792,"text":"請你們可以去往這方向思考,配合超商再來我要趕快問一個部長,歐盟在2006年已經全面禁止抗生素作為生長促進,添加於飼料,兼用抗生素是國際趨勢那我國這幾年也有陸續剔除,但是尚有19種抗生素"},{"start":7660.532,"end":7674.78,"text":"那我想這不僅是我國大型經濟動物始終擺脫不了的這個抗生素抗藥性的問題也是我們受這個評鑑分數低的問題請問一下部長我們何時可以跟歐盟一樣全面禁止在飼料中使用抗生素作為促進劑生長促進劑"},{"start":7676.789,"end":7692.772,"text":"我想我們持續針對這些抗生素的部分會有一些品項跟那個部長歐盟在2006年就逐步禁用最後4種飼料用抗生素其中這個復熱酶素跟這個阿美拉酶素"},{"start":7697.574,"end":7713.138,"text":"請教部長,現在我國的這個國家級的防疫液體抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫也在7月公布了那其中農業部也是非常重要的角色我國有行動計畫,但是行動目標上面有沒有決心要跟歐盟一樣禁用含抗生素的飼料"},{"start":7715.561,"end":7740.22,"text":"這個部分會跟衛生部來協調那我們一個非常重要的就是我們針對這些抗生素的部分如果說它有人序共通的一些疾病的防止的部分還有一些對於後面有交叉感染的部分我們會做優先在這個部分我們又有一些排序是部長但是在這個行動計畫中其中除了醫院以及用藥的管控之外最重要的就是跟這個農業部的合作但是我們可以看到這個計畫後面的副表"},{"start":7740.76,"end":7746.52,"text":"也就是這個績效指標或是衡量指標還有目標值你們在工作項目中"},{"start":7748.287,"end":7773.794,"text":"發展續勤養殖場抗生素減用策略史我看到的時候我是覺得差點沒有暈倒你們居然沒有要像歐盟一樣全面禁用而是一年拖一年你們這些年度目標其實是非常的緩慢喔我想要請問部長我們國家的標準能到就這麼低嗎?你們是不是可以好好的再去檢討你們定定的這些年度目標究竟有沒有辦法跟上國際趨勢然後以及對我們國人有沒有什麼影響"},{"start":7774.588,"end":7775.068,"text":"請檢討後的報告再給本席辦公室一份,謝謝"},{"start":7809.977,"end":7835.823,"text":"請賴瑞倫委員質詢好 謝謝主席 請陳部長請陳部長部長辛苦了 部長我先請教一個問題就是說一個政策的成敗的責任最後會由行政機關負起還是由立法機關來負起責任"},{"start":7836.96,"end":7863.963,"text":"我想政策的推動一定是由行政單位來負最後的一個責任所以這件事情最後的成敗以後對成敗是一定是立法機關應該給很多的建議嘛但是最後萬一這個政策是有問題其實都是由行政機關負責是行政機關來負責對所以我覺得這個東西的權責其實要分得清楚啦雖然立法機關會有很多的反映民意反映的一些意見但是最後都會回到行政機關身上那行政機關就最後由你們的整體的考量因為國家的資源有限下那"},{"start":7864.403,"end":7864.723,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7895.003,"end":7914.115,"text":"整個即使你全部聽了立法院的建議最後如果萬一這個政策是失敗的其實負起責任的其實是部長不會是立法委員所以我覺得這件事情還是要回歸聖誕堂我自己也當過局長我很清楚這個分際是很清楚那這個農這個稻米的部分其實大家在努力以很多的策略上的不同"},{"start":7915.592,"end":7927.486,"text":"提高公糧當然是一種選擇的方式但是我看到部長其實比較認可跟支持採用一級二轉3加3的稻米產業方案這個裡面的部長簡單的幾句話來講一下兩者之間的優缺好不好"},{"start":7931.511,"end":7949.758,"text":"我想我們分三個面向來講其實第一個部分就是當農業部在推動一個政策的時候對一個產業來講我們希望說政策的推動對所有的這個產業的人農民都能夠受益都能夠受益到同時受益到而不是針對特定的族群這是我們在思考的這一點點"},{"start":7950.838,"end":7971.971,"text":"公糧的部分就是特定的 特定的少數整個產業不見得是最好的選擇然後第二個部分就是從經費的角度我們希望說用一個最少的經費能夠發揮最大的一個效益而這個政策不會跟其他的政策有互相干渴的部分也就是說發錢不見得是最好的方式用這些錢去運"},{"start":7972.731,"end":7980.883,"text":"去運用它而讓它能夠提升更好的一些產值反倒或者是提升更好的效益反倒會有更好的效果然後第三個部分也是最重要就是說"},{"start":7982.25,"end":8003.007,"text":"我們在考慮的就是當我用政府的資源投入在一些某一個產業的特定的族群的時候對其他的產業會相對的會受到一些經費的一個排擠那特別是我們現在推動了很多包括對地綠色幾乎很多都是希望能夠降低造作面積已經推動了很多而且逐步有些成效"},{"start":8003.467,"end":8031.403,"text":"如果現在公糧在提高的時候會把過去的這些努力全部化為烏有那又重新來過所以部裡面的考量其實希望對於整體的道路甚至整體的農業的產業是整體有效益的在投入資源下是正面的效益的對好那我順著接下來請問其實台灣有些米也還不錯啦就是這個反倒是未來我認為像有些就不一定會繳交公糧有些地方的米不知道阿爸舉一下哪些地方你沒有繳交公糧的"},{"start":8033.049,"end":8034.03,"text":"我的意思說其實應該更鼓勵更多用這樣的方式"},{"start":8057.887,"end":8058.267,"text":"反倒會影響到"},{"start":8080.365,"end":8102.914,"text":"農業部除了既有的公糧裝應該要花更大的力氣在於好米的部分的怎麼樣讓他種出更多好米鼓勵更多好米的產生而不是反倒是逆向的循環對這是我們在推動一極二轉生態戰的一個政策第一個就是讓農民引導他種植品質然後第二個部分就是後面的外銷的部分我們也會做一些品牌的行銷的宣導跟他們的支持"},{"start":8103.574,"end":8126.955,"text":"這個也請部理院把規劃也再送給我們好不好把你們的規劃接下來的一年三年你們未來的規劃方向我認為這個其實都蠻重要的特別是看到其實日本的現在稻米的裝它其實現在有點不夠供應量不太夠的時候反倒是我們的稻米如果能夠有更好的稻米其實有機會更多的市場我跟委員報告上個月我到日本的時候就跟貿易商就跟一些那邊的"},{"start":8127.435,"end":8145.876,"text":"通路已經談過了他們大概明年1月會來那其實其中的一個品項當然很多農產品比較其中一個品項就是米的部分那我們想趁這個機會把我們的U值的米能夠有機會銷到日本去因為以前日本米甚至是國內米還要銷到國外去那現在它量不夠的狀況下其實這個都是台灣米的一個機會"},{"start":8148.058,"end":8162.268,"text":"品牌拉得更好品質拉得更好我們就有機會我們在衝的是值而不是在衝量我覺得這個是比較有意義的那再來是雜糧的部分其實也是很重要的嘛我們也希望未來這塊雜糧的部分部裡面也持續來加強來推動"},{"start":8164.089,"end":8192.669,"text":"會,我想我們在二轉的部分其實就是有一些不中到的獎勵就希望他們不中到然後轉到雜糧那提高雜糧以後我們的自給率就會提升對我們糧食安全也會有確保這個我想我們會繼續來對,就是雜糧我們現在的是需求大於供給的啦是在這種狀況下的時候其實引導如果農民往這個方向的話其實他的收益會來得更好是而不是去中的到然後用供糧這個部分反倒不見得是最好的選擇是所以我希望"},{"start":8193.889,"end":8210.315,"text":"農業部持續的溝通啊,持續的能夠...對,我們會在這裡溝通好,那再來我要講其實要把握一點時間齁,前陣漁港其實很重要的一個建設啦齁,那但是我看了一下整個這個進度齁,多功能水產品的運銷中心的整個進度落後了41點多部長為什麼落後這麼多?"},{"start":8214.195,"end":8236.998,"text":"我想這個部分國度組在執行的話,我想我們也會要求國度組在這個部分能夠把過去落後的進度能夠趕上,因為這個部分是大家所期待的。那相對的我們有一些部分包括漁港的那個深度碼頭的部分都在做了,現在最重要的就是一個運銷的加工這個中心,這個中心完了以後就能夠串接整個部分。"},{"start":8238.319,"end":8260.094,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":8260.414,"end":8283.272,"text":"那個跟委員報告這個我們已經擬好一個照商文件跟財政部溝通過看過了那我們這個禮拜會在臺北跟高雄辦理照商說明會也要積極邀請潛在廠商來參與謝謝部長這個可能要請還是要持續的邀請我講過很多次這個若你邀請到的是夠大的"},{"start":8283.812,"end":8287.013,"text":"我希望說讓國內的大的而有能力的廠商能夠有意願來來參與這樣的一個計畫我也認為就是說一個一個一個營運經營主體一定選擇非常重要"},{"start":8303.719,"end":8325.808,"text":"選擇得對的話後續就會非常順利如果說選擇不對的時候可能造成後續不好的一個面向發展這個部分我想特別努力因為你選擇好的光他自己可能就很在乎他的品牌了啦他不會輕易砸掉自己的招牌嘛所以他也會很認真但是他進來他一定會經過很多的評估包括他的投資能不能達到他的效益所以我也希望我知道年限有做了一些放寬我也希望這是個長遠的計畫"},{"start":8327.448,"end":8327.628,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":8369.155,"end":8369.514,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8684.086,"end":8684.266,"text":"主席"},{"start":8714.153,"end":8740.894,"text":"我想請問一下現在我們斑斑有鮮乳這個問題要怎麼解決啊那個我們知道目前從過去以來我們的消費市場就是我們乳品的消費市場鮮乳占85%保酒乳占15%國內的乳品是有足夠的供應量供給就是斑斑有鮮乳這個政策是不是"},{"start":8741.713,"end":8742.394,"text":"那我想請問什麼時候可以?"},{"start":8766.209,"end":8776.429,"text":"我想我們針對分兩個部分一個部分就是已經接受已經下定完成的部分我們會盡量協調爐廠在爐品的分配讓他能夠"},{"start":8778.208,"end":8778.528,"text":"那什麼時候可以?"},{"start":8802.212,"end":8821.241,"text":"現在已經在做了現在學校下訂的這個情況應該都已經決定了嗎現在大概有19個縣市完成的下訂還有3個縣市是還沒有完成下訂的部分那19個縣市的部分應該可以馬上就是來溝通協調了吧對我們現在已經啟動了現在我們有一個專案小組在做這樣的一個協助協助爐廠因為過去的爐廠"},{"start":8827.944,"end":8828.965,"text":"請問八月三十號開學現在已經第二個月了"},{"start":8861.588,"end":8875.299,"text":"我們本身我們的目標就是讓我們的學校盡量能夠很快速的喝得到所以很重要一點就是我們希望爐廠的產能能夠提高然後相對的他在配送的時候能夠比較均勻的配送"},{"start":8875.819,"end":8903.971,"text":"而不是說先定的齁先完全百分之百滿足了以後才去做其他的這樣的話造成有的學校喝得到有的學校喝不到我們會來努力我特別點名畜牧師長李一千他是新任的畜牧師長是不是是我要點名為什麼你知道大家飽酒我喝不到該喝鮮乳你知道在那個乳品的供應的那個契約裡面"},{"start":8905.987,"end":8933.451,"text":"那個我們鮮乳的價格是多少?14加2嘛,對不對?那保酒乳呢?14塊那14塊,大家為什麼要訂保酒乳?就是因為價格的問題嘛,我們補助的就只有14塊嘛,是不是?是那這樣子的情況下,是不是學校當然會優先的採用保酒乳,是不是?"},{"start":8934.352,"end":8952.729,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們以後給他回答給他回答你來解釋一下李謙市長是報告委員那個鮮乳14塊加2保酒乳14塊這個都是由我們農業部的預算來支應沒有讓學校出錢我知道那為什麼他要訂保酒乳"},{"start":8953.63,"end":8970.494,"text":"就是因為這個預算剛剛好他們可以足夠也可以供給這些學生半半可以喝到鮮乳嘛是不是那你為什麼叫大家半半可以喝到牛奶嘛那你為什麼叫大家如果喝不到飽就改喝鮮乳"},{"start":8970.994,"end":8988.072,"text":"阿錢不夠阿再怎麼樣就知道錢不夠阿是不是我跟委員報告齁就是我們基本上會尊重學校對於保救乳或鮮乳的一個選擇那本身我們的預算是足夠的預算是足夠的不是說因為預算不夠而讓"},{"start":8988.933,"end":8988.953,"text":"好"},{"start":9006.676,"end":9034.825,"text":"我要再看一下喔你看一下這是我們目前稻米的出口統計為什麼大家希望農民希望公糧的價格可以提高為什麼現在生產成本提高嘛那我們過去農委會的政策是希望可以增加出口嘛是不是是那你看到稻米出口的統計"},{"start":9036.085,"end":9055.574,"text":"這是日稻米出口的統計是從過去以來109年出口是超過進口可是近年來並沒有大幅度的上升是不是我跟委員報告大概有幾個原因第一個原因就是"},{"start":9056.374,"end":9081.739,"text":"我們剛剛前幾年剛好在疫情期間他的出口比較不易第二個部分就是也是一直我個人希望一直去推動的就是我希望我們生產的是優質的好米那這樣的話我更能夠利用品牌的方式去推到一些高端的市場那這樣的話才能夠讓農民的收益能夠提高那繳公糧的部分大概都是只是重量不重值的部分那繳公糧的部分我們有兩個部分一個部分是"},{"start":9082.74,"end":9109.583,"text":"針對一些落後地區的我們配合外交部去提供這些原住民的部分大概一年大概2.2萬噸那其他的部分我想我們因為他的品質不是那麼好所以相對的國內的這些加工使用的話量就比較低所以最重要的根本就是希望農民能夠種植比較優良的米以後那不管是國內的供應或外交的部分那基本上他的面向就會比較大"},{"start":9110.788,"end":9139.711,"text":"所以可是以目前來看為什麼農民現在急著希望公糧的價格升高就是因為過去幾年來不管不管你說要用品牌的出口讓他能夠價格高漲但是在整個時機上面就是沒有成績阿是不是我跟委員報告齁如果說我們去仿視這些稻農的部分當你仿視到純粹講公糧的他當然希望公糧提高因為"},{"start":9140.452,"end":9141.012,"text":"好 你不要浪費我的時間 你說"},{"start":9167.409,"end":9189.631,"text":"到底什麼時候我們稻米的出口產值可以增加我們的價值可以增加什麼時候這是你農委會農業部部長應該要負擔的責任嘛你們提出你們的目標嘛你說啊什麼時候我們出口"},{"start":9190.913,"end":9193.734,"text":"我剛才也說了就是說其實上個月我到日本去的時候就有接到一些"},{"start":9213.999,"end":9214.599,"text":"你跟我講什麼時候啦?"},{"start":9225.759,"end":9237.404,"text":"你給我保證什麼時候啦?我們出口會增加啦!你給我保證啦!你不要!你不要提高公糧收購的價格!你給我保證什麼時候!我們出口會增加啦!會真正的增加農民的收入啦!你給我保證啦!"},{"start":9252.03,"end":9278.843,"text":"我想明年的部分我想出口一定會增加這個是一定確認只是那個量的部分我們還要去跟我們的不同國家的同路去討論另外一個是很多國家的米的進口是有配額的部分所以相對的他必須要取得配額以後才能來進出口的部分這個也會努力好我最後有個問題啊不要浪費我的時間我就向你保證而已嘛你要保證啊我想要知道現在我們去年的時候"},{"start":9280.307,"end":9280.447,"text":"下一張．"},{"start":9301.827,"end":9318.393,"text":"一次一次的專案進口3萬隻的總母雞進來雖然他沒有辦法解決燃煤之急有可能呢有可能他預估就是在今年2024跟2025年我們的雞蛋產量會大幅度的上升導致現在我們面臨到雞蛋價格產地價格大幅度的下跌對不對"},{"start":9328.294,"end":9352.687,"text":"我跟委員報告齁其實要穩定雞蛋的產銷業者跟我們農業部都有責任也是共同的目標那業者的部分我們每一個禮拜都有提供相關的資訊那業者就應該根據這個資訊做相關的自主的管理包括總機他就必須要去淘汰而不是放任總機持續的變成蛋凍機然後蛋機廠他持續的不去做一個優化去調節而讓雞蛋繼續生產出來"},{"start":9355.669,"end":9358.471,"text":"因為要根據供需 那農業部的部分我們會怎麼樣子 怎麼樣子調節現在的種機我問你現在 氧氣協會說希望農業部可以補助淘汰種機但是現在淘汰種機會不會明年我們又變成雞蛋 沒有了 會不會"},{"start":9378.643,"end":9379.343,"text":"農業部長 陳部長 你要怎麼解決這個問題啊"},{"start":9403.898,"end":9427.373,"text":"你現在說不要希望他們自主那到時候他們自主淘汰太多明年會不會產生我們又缺蛋的問題阿你們又要去進口雞蛋阿會不會我們每個月基本上我們都提供了很完整的資訊包括總雞、蛋中雞跟淘汰母雞的整個數量那業者"},{"start":9429.514,"end":9429.914,"text":"陳婷菲委員質詢"},{"start":9457.5,"end":9458.2,"text":"農民的感受不到"},{"start":9482.486,"end":9504.741,"text":"我們已經花了那麼多的資源包括我們從所謂的一個轉作然後在一些相關的農業環境基本的給付然後轉作的獎勵甚至農業保險甚至是我們一些相關的這些保價收購的一個部分"},{"start":9505.595,"end":9522.684,"text":"我們做了很多但是農民為什麼感受不到還是認為說你就是要公糧提高收購價然後讓有些人一直喊這樣的口號喊得好像我們沒有家的人就是因為不照顧農民"},{"start":9524.11,"end":9547.456,"text":"我跟委員報告齁我們不管在我們的政策推出來之前跟之後現在我們大概從上個月開始我們已經開了20幾場的說明會大部分的農民是支持我們這樣的一個做法但是還是這聲音沒有出來啊你說農民支持你這個說法這聲音很小欸可是我相信如果你用民調的話"},{"start":9552.487,"end":9569.189,"text":"這些所謂支持要提高公糧收購價格的人聲音會比較大為什麼我想基本上用政府的經費去支持農民的收益直接的收益的話我想每個人都拍拍手"},{"start":9570.725,"end":9595.174,"text":"但是只有少部分而已如果說今天是用全民調的部分就是包括其他的產業的部分那以我們對產業的瞭解跟認識所謂的少部分是多少人真正有在交公糧的不論是全部交公糧大概有12萬人我想稻農大概有22.5萬人那12萬人是有繳跟公糧有來往的部分那其中2.2萬是純粹繳公糧的部分"},{"start":9597.435,"end":9620.066,"text":"那相對的我們現在目前主要的主力的從事農業的大概是48.6萬到9萬48.9萬之間那相對的其他的產業包括我們了解的雜糧的產業他們就覺得說如果只照顧稻農他們覺得很不服氣因為他們也是很努力的為這邊土地付出去生產一些糧食安全所"},{"start":9620.826,"end":9621.186,"text":"所以部長今天"},{"start":9642.403,"end":9661.282,"text":"我剛剛講的一個關鍵是我們做了這麼多可是為什麼農民的感受都沒有那麼的深就像你講的今天大家如果增加整個收購價大家會拍拍手可是拍拍手的可能是"},{"start":9662.811,"end":9665.332,"text":"其實我們也應該有一個所謂調整機制滾動式檢討的機制"},{"start":9687.932,"end":9709.425,"text":"所以我同意也認同那個委員所說的就是說我們對於現在 花卉也是啊 對不對滾動式檢討啊我們應該提出我們不一定說一次要這個拉高多高可是我們應該對於所謂產業面我們要滾動式檢討就像我之前在我們農損的部分"},{"start":9710.465,"end":9718.871,"text":"要求部長滾動式檢討一樣在我們整個全面的一些收購價格各種農作物的品項"},{"start":9720.487,"end":9738.966,"text":"是不是也都應該去做滾動式的檢討是我想跟委員報告我想我們會要看品項有的品項是純粹是市長機制的就是市長機制那有些品項是政府有一些參與一些配套的部分那這個部分不只是倒座的部分其他的品項我想我們也會來做一個滾動的檢討我想持續的檢討才能夠"},{"start":9742.899,"end":9771.542,"text":"所以部長我們應該跟農民說在這個公糧收購的部分我們會隨時滾動式檢討對不對?滾動式檢討就是隨著現在市面上的狀況跟所有我們生產的量我們隨時去做滾動式檢討而且不只是我們的稻米我們是針對所有農民各品項都是一樣"},{"start":9772.915,"end":9796.705,"text":"如果說可以針對單品項各品項有一個機制叫滾動式檢討那麼大家會比較心安道座也是公糧也是也就是這一次會被提出來是很久沒條件了大家覺得很久沒條件了那我們不要說一下子訂到五塊錢我們訂一個是隨時每年滾動式檢討"},{"start":9800.563,"end":9802.984,"text":"因為我們明明做很多對於農業的保護對於農業的支持對於農民的照顧我們民進黨做的太多"},{"start":9828.496,"end":9845.89,"text":"而且比起過去的標準是多很多關我們的農損包括我們的植栽包括我們的農健保這些過去基本上都要靠農民自己本身但是我們現在用法治去協助他們"},{"start":9847.597,"end":9868.774,"text":"所以在這樣的一個前提之下我們要讓更多人知道不能因為一個公糧的議題好像把民進黨打成說你都沒在關心農民我覺得這樣子好辛苦喔所以表示我們對外所講的講得不清不楚我們立場沒有講清楚"},{"start":9869.642,"end":9892.547,"text":"如果我們今天說的我們已經做了這麼多的投入作業的一個相關經費好我們也願意對於在整個公糧的一個收購我們每年去做滾動式檢討而且不只是到做這個品項而是所有相關的農業支持的品項"},{"start":9894.266,"end":9921.854,"text":"只要他並不是在處於市場機制的一個狀態我們就應該每年去做滾動式檢討謝謝委員我想這個部分我們絕對可以認同也可以接受所以後續我想我們會建立一個機制就是針對一些政府有在投入的這些品項我們做一個有效的一個滾動機制那這個機制會看其他的政策的落實程度去做一個滾動的一個調整"},{"start":9923.424,"end":9939.097,"text":"因為現在物價確實飆漲的比較快而且他會因為國內情勢跟國際情勢所以我們就要有這個擔當跟農民說會我們會依照各方的局勢"},{"start":9940.018,"end":9966.899,"text":"去做滾動式檢討而且在整個所謂保價收購的一個價格當中我們會多面性而且縱觀性去保障到我們農民的收入我覺得我們要有這樣的定調農民才會安心否則只要一句話說一句話就把我們全部前面所做的都打翻了"},{"start":9968.14,"end":9992.878,"text":"這對於公務人員也不公平對於執政政府也不公平可是農民也沒有錯他需要的是一個穩定收入所以我們更應該接近他們瞭解他們的想法穩定收入就是希望有政府來隨時關心他們而不是丟在那 英文都沒聽到"},{"start":9995.225,"end":9995.445,"text":"委員會提醒"},{"start":10011.94,"end":10026.411,"text":"大家也是這樣跟我們說,就是說我們更應該站在執政黨立場,我們提出更有效的、更有用的、更直接的,我不是一道坑要你叼多少,而是我們每年滾動式檢討,負責任的該叼管的叼管呢?"},{"start":10031.274,"end":10031.374,"text":"請紅聲看委員諮詢"},{"start":10073.048,"end":10074.329,"text":"現在主席請陳部長請陳部長來委員好部長好"},{"start":10085.813,"end":10103.442,"text":"這段時間我們討論了蠻多這個農地跟再生能源跟光電之間的這些問題那我們大概理解農業部有農業部在這方面農業為本的想法但我想要跟部長來請教部長你看一下這個照片"},{"start":10104.602,"end":10127.358,"text":"像這樣一個小小的農機巨市喔那其實周遭其實沒有太多的植物因喔那它假如也在一個受光條件好的地方你覺得它適不適合做屋頂光墊我跟委員報告做屋頂光墊本身除了建築物本身所在的屋頂以外它也要考慮到匱限跟它後續的當然這個意思是說匱限都沒有問題啊你覺得適不適合"},{"start":10131.121,"end":10160.434,"text":"我個人覺得如果屋頂型的話他沒有用到地面喔對他沒有用到地面是可以去做這樣的方式可以做這樣的方式嘛對部長這個不知道你知不知道其實像這樣一個農機具市或一個資材市其實他的面積真的不大他經濟效益也沒有很大可是很多農民他其實某個部分他也贊成也支持但目前喔很多的程序現在很多的程序都是卡在農業部不夠積極的作為部長你知不知道這件事情"},{"start":10161.302,"end":10175.775,"text":"我想一個非常重要的問題就是這個農機具本身的面積基地面積是因為他要合法嘛那現在是規定在45平方公尺以下的話是沒有辦法有建造的不然我給你看一下這是今年8月初這是農民喔"},{"start":10176.716,"end":10204.86,"text":"這是你們主管的農民喔 農民來向我們澄清喔他說他自己在民國110年參加農業部農業設施設置屋頂光墊說明媒合會上面宣傳上面是很明確的寫到說農業資材室是有被納入到農業設施屋頂光墊裡面的喔所以這個農民他即便知道自己屋頂的面積很小沒什麼經濟效益但他還是願意自掏腰包來響應政府相關的政策"},{"start":10205.427,"end":10233.664,"text":"但卻被農業部拒絕要求他一定要有建築物的執照或使用或使照所以我們在8月底的時候找了三個部會來我們找了能源署、經濟部能源署也找了國土署也找了農業部都來一起來釐清我們問了能源署能源署說其實能源署說這個建造並不是必要的條件可以有其他文件來去取代"},{"start":10234.81,"end":10258.067,"text":"那國土組說確實農法條例已經排除了45平方公尺以下的建物免申請建造這事情而且特別法是優先於普通法但這個在農業部的法理上面確實看起來那次呈現看起來是需要承擔更多的責任不想所以呢我們當時其實發文要求在8月底的時候我手上這筆"},{"start":10259.543,"end":10286.286,"text":"這公文8月29發出的那我們要求在9月12號以前農業部應該要主動協調但到今天農業部還是沒有作為一場會議都沒有召開也沒有任何公文的含附我們要求9月12號應該要回覆在這公文上面現在10月中了我們問了國土署"},{"start":10287.808,"end":10313.6,"text":"農業部有沒有找你們他說沒有我知道這裡面會有一些建築安全要怎麼去確保的機制上面設計的問題我們都清楚但我要說的事情是第一個農民的需求是誰主管農業部吧那這包括這上面農地上面種種的事情包括他的許可等等等的資材是也是農業部在管的對不對是"},{"start":10315.472,"end":10324.406,"text":"我自己認為到底要用什麼方法來去確保他的安全上面的問題這事情不一定只有一種方法但農業部應該要積極協調去尋找現在我感覺農業部的狀況是雙手一攤啊部長"},{"start":10331.787,"end":10358.375,"text":"我想如果照委員這樣講,違背了我當初520以後,我要求我們農業部一定要用更積極服務的態度去服務農民。那以剛才委員敘述的部分,我覺得就像剛才我們同仁有講說有在做,可是我覺得那個包括時間也太久了。因為有很多是需要跨部會解決的部分,也許你們需要其他部會某些協助或諮詢,這我都同意。"},{"start":10359.295,"end":10366.576,"text":"但是我要再強調一次這是農民的需求是這不是光電廠商的需求是如果是光電廠商的需求我會去找經濟部"},{"start":10367.881,"end":10392.216,"text":"但這是農民的需求,農民想做沒有人逼他,也沒有什麼經濟效益也不是這裡面會有什麼大的圖利,都不會有農民就想做,他的需求在農地上面在農業部主管的資材室上面我覺得農業部應該承擔起主動協調並找到方案的角色,部長你同不同意?我也同意,以農民的角度因為資材是我們農業部所來管的部分,我們應該"},{"start":10393.584,"end":10409.949,"text":"甚至於可以當作主責就是對於可不可以應該當作最後決定的一個單位啦所以這個部分我想我會要求我們相關的單位我想站在這個制裁是幾乎所有都符合你們原本說明跟宣示的原則啊並沒有影響到農業生產啊對也沒有用到農土農地啊"},{"start":10411.092,"end":10413.413,"text":"部長,我願意再給農業部一次時間,一個月的時間,在幾個部會裡面,主動承擔協調處理這件事情的方案"},{"start":10432.924,"end":10460.478,"text":"不一定只要靠只有是建造或始造啦有很多的方式都可以去確認這樣子一個制裁式的安全問題啦是能源署也都會認啦就我問能源署能源署也說他都會認啦所以不一定只有一種方法可是農業部要去協調住這個方法部長沒有問題一個月可以嗎我覺得沒問題就我舉個例子齁就以溫室的部分有沒有我們就可以委託學校變成溫室的強度結構我們都可以去做技師簽證所以像這個部分我覺得一定可以解決啦"},{"start":10461.138,"end":10461.638,"text":"首先謝謝執行"},{"start":10490.256,"end":10493.698,"text":"有請農業部陳部長今天是公糧調高價格的評估跟評審的一個報告但是這個公糧這個報告我首先要請教一個問題"},{"start":10517.082,"end":10538.147,"text":"目前我們的農業保險率覆蓋率是51%你比109年的9%確實增加很多但是這個51%最重要你是從水稻跟支的一個強制保險以後所以要把這裡扣掉你只有17.6"},{"start":10540.097,"end":10567.352,"text":"阿這個保養現在老百姓也不怎麼相信因為你農業保險不一定拿得到保險的一個費用阿在這裡你們今年的10月2號你農業部搞不好火勢依靠修正天然災害救治的辦法你加個稻米在本田中獲取適用天然災害的"},{"start":10569.245,"end":10578.66,"text":"這個類型限縮於農檢控跟兵跑我告訴你 我要怎麼看它 部長你是提到補充公司你講話你沒有提農民講話臺灣的農檢控多不多"},{"start":10587.418,"end":10600.342,"text":"昨天公告已經把水稻這個部分拿掉了,沒有公告,所以沒有這個問題?我現在先跟你說,你除了拿掉好,你又從善如流,你只有規定農前鋒,只有規定兵跑"},{"start":10601.749,"end":10605.03,"text":"我希望你這個公告裡面幫我加一項,鹽水風。你知道新竹到苗栗到台中這個階段,我們叫做酒檢風。"},{"start":10621.417,"end":10630.99,"text":"那如果那個風一撿起來沿水的時候在海邊一掃,那些球啊,那些球啊,差不多都不會滑,都是空爆彈。"},{"start":10632.259,"end":10659.994,"text":"如果你要公告這個：真正有發生的話：我們就是檢視方案你這樣聽到沒有我了解我完全贊成委員的意見就是說現在這條保險已經用我們的農業的保險去支撐了但是針對特定的一些災害他講的齁龍捲風在台灣不容易發生但是巖峰你剛剛講的海邊的巖峰反而機會會比較大那這個部分我想我們"},{"start":10661.255,"end":10689.318,"text":"我上次的委員會我已經承諾齁就是我們天然災害救助每一年年底之前都會檢討完成包括金額包括裡面的不適合的條款我們在第二年的一月份一定會重新公告一次齁所以趁這個在這年底的部分我們把它納入就我們的檢討的一個依據好 這樣算喔 檢視方你一定要幫我納入好不好因為我曉得我當地的農民那個海邊的生態我一清二楚"},{"start":10690.618,"end":10700.424,"text":"好嗎?你光農健康光兵跑就不可能對,我們會納入討論,在我們的專案會議裡面去討論那再來要跟你,請回座討論到公糧的收購這要聽你的報告確實很矛盾你會記得這句話,我看你才不會起來慈禾日當午"},{"start":10715.165,"end":10740.631,"text":"漢堤河下土 再來你跟我說誰知盤中仙盤中孫 利利皆辛苦好 這標示我們做法院農業 農民的辛苦我們以農利共 大家跟農業跟農民都有深厚的感情你今天所謂的評估報告出來我從頭把你抬到尾 我所謂的資料都把你調起來你裡面說"},{"start":10744.225,"end":10761.129,"text":"我請教你一個問題現在農民座一公頃實質的收益大概會有多少?一家棟一家棟一期座6到8萬好業人7到8萬二期座4到6一家一家棟一期座6到8萬二期座是4到6萬我告訴你6到8萬要在台北一車一座就沒有意義了"},{"start":10772.771,"end":10790.085,"text":"所以我現在覺得你這個部長不替農民講話我感覺你是研究資深而且你也是做過農 我覺得你一定會替農民講話我可以報告嗎 水中的收入相對於其他的品項其實他也比較高你不會這樣說 他做的社產就是社產你的報告裡面說集團產區的企作價格每公斤26到29"},{"start":10800.7,"end":10827.143,"text":"高於公糧收購的26年你現在想你從2011年到今年2024年13年你都沒有調整這公糧的收購你是在壓榨農民我給你算我們現在基本工作的調整我們的公務薪水的調整跟著通貨膨脹不然你也要調整一下你竟然一口喝一口我會給你什麼"},{"start":10828.82,"end":10854.066,"text":"一局二轉,三加三,要賠到這麼少的,看來看去又三到五三三我從這些人出身的,你這是糟蹋農民當然你講的也有一些道理,但是基本台灣的物價已經漲了多少你說調高公糧價格會帶動其他的物價,什麼水果什麼那些物價,我聽不進去本來都已經在漲了"},{"start":10856.308,"end":10882.755,"text":"但是你要如何來改進這一些?你一集團,沒有你自己選擇嘛!提高公糧的價格,你們一定要跟集團簽合約,這個是另外一個途徑嘛!你所謂改種優良的、品質的種,你跟我種這個、那個種啊!是什麼樣的改革你叫人家要種?沒有種,我不想跟你收!大家就怪怪的來啊!你捨得這麼多看!"},{"start":10884.793,"end":10886.874,"text":"所以我覺得你們要改變思考的方向"},{"start":10902.173,"end":10929.928,"text":"你現在要給我公糧,不然你給我種什麼品種,你覺得好嗎?不然你就說你要給我參觀集團做,還是安裝來修?這個方式你誰家沒誰人看得到好不好?我講真的啦!所以你這個想法就要蓋啦!你說這樣管到29戶到30戶而已,我怎麼有感受?第一,一家中餐6萬到10萬好不好?"},{"start":10933.614,"end":10940.882,"text":"我是跟你講真的,一家中六萬到九萬一天收兩片,如果各位參六萬到九萬,各位參兩萬一萬好不好?"},{"start":10945.161,"end":10972.206,"text":"這個怎麼過活嘛,那是大家感覺說我這個土地做先勞了,我要好好耕種,不然怕被歐人不孝順,不知道沒什麼事,都是在旁邊要找工作才有增加收入嘛,你都要了解這個情形嘛。不然你從插秧的地方,收割的地方,那些待耕業者拜託他們去跟他們做的地址來講,"},{"start":10973.936,"end":11001.028,"text":"不然你講這些道理不通啊你可以再強制要求嘛我公糧收購就要品質比較好我固定收了多少你30%嘛你這講出來喔農民傻到不傻傻真的我們到哪個地方政治層委員除了農民工業各位知名啊 那個公糧齁十幾年都沒有給我們調整啊你這次要去給我們發聲要調整啊"},{"start":11005.011,"end":11020.884,"text":"跟你的想法跟農民的想法差別很大我希望你在這邊再調整調整一個適當的方案農民要開心不然你農業的設施做了那麼多這開始要改進的所在"},{"start":11023.483,"end":11045.251,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教那我們其實共同的目的就是要提高稻農的所得這是我們一次的目標那現在目前稻作有兩個系統一個是公糧一個是集團契作我們現在我們希望說透過集團契作的方式能夠照顧到所有的稻農那我也必須要去"},{"start":11045.991,"end":11058.299,"text":"去 內部要去討論的就是我們有沒有辦法去建立一個機制去做這個調整的一個機制我 裡面報告說有2.24萬公頃只要抽離3%到5%就能把公糧的價格穩定好是產地的價格不是公糧的價格7千公頃到12000公頃你在雜糧的幾十年都沒有調整價格"},{"start":11083.81,"end":11101.222,"text":"這兩個政策是矛盾的齁因為我們一直希望把水稻轉成雜糧那雜糧的部分我們包括你如果不種到我已經多了一萬五了有增加的誘因那你一方面如果提高公糧收購的話又會跑過來所以基本上我想我們整體的產業是需要進步的"},{"start":11103.243,"end":11109.831,"text":"現在在半島啊,說到日本半島一塊塊就三千啊,普通是啊"},{"start":11111.144,"end":11119.869,"text":"我跟委員報告農民的所得普遍的比其他的行業還要低這是事實然後我們也希望能夠透過各種方式能夠提高稻農所得我們的農產品的價格也偏低我們也希望透過方式"},{"start":11137.279,"end":11165.672,"text":"不善於種植的到了全部改為國土計劃那個什麼發展區啊城鄉發展區 減掉 你的價格穩定你有好作有準手段不是這行而已你也不要怕那些榮譽民運榮譽團體在講以前國民黨執政榮譽團體看天天抗爭法民黨執政那些榮譽團體我都看不到了我們只是不想講"},{"start":11167.216,"end":11191.274,"text":"你把這些3131萬2千公頃,照你所講的3到5,7千公頃,那不適宜跟這種改為城鄉發展區第一個,把房價低價整個壓低下來,我不知道你這個政府要什麼,要民主,理事又沒有辦法沒有拿出一道妥善的辦法,你要整體討論嘛,不然現在房價那麼貴"},{"start":11193.611,"end":11213.132,"text":"農民感鼓舞,你以為農民啦,大家都在期待捏,我常常講一句話你都沒有感受到。我們的廟裡的三坡地,一公間三層屏,沒有台北的一間廁所,好在的一間廁所,這樣你還跟我說,很悲哀啊,謝謝。"},{"start":11222.067,"end":11251.011,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢。主席、各位委員、有請部長。請陳部長。部長,辛苦了。"},{"start":11253.325,"end":11277.432,"text":"今天的議題是針對立法院的決議提高公糧收購價格的一個專題報告當然你的報告寫得非常的詳細重點就是因為立法院代表民意所做的決議這個國民黨團在今年的5月8號"},{"start":11283.51,"end":11311.983,"text":"提出了這個提案因為基本工資、養苗、物價指數不斷的上漲尤其是基本工資這13年來啊最起碼又調漲了將近10次了所以特別提案公糧收購的價格既然13年都沒有調整應該要調整經過草野協商之後"},{"start":11314.331,"end":11329.342,"text":"113年7月16日立法院院會做討論特別提到我們看一下最後立法院的一個決議各黨團當時無異議對民眾黨團、國民黨團的修正動議通過"},{"start":11343.171,"end":11371,"text":"有意沒有意義各黨團都同意沒有表決所以行政部門農業部就應該要尊重民意尊重立法院所做的決議這個不是表決的是黨團各黨團沒有意義通過的決議"},{"start":11373.066,"end":11399,"text":"院長做了一個財事也就是立法院的決議他特別提到109年到現在13年未調帳物價大漲包括人工、肥料、農業資材等各項成本現在也切工,農業也切工啊"},{"start":11400.202,"end":11402.403,"text":"農業部因綜合考量各項成本及物價指數調整公糧收購價格"},{"start":11428.615,"end":11453.841,"text":"由每公斤26元調整至每公斤31元原來的提案是34後來大家協商之後31所以這個部分我看一下原來的提案34原來提案是34所以後來立法院所做的決議"},{"start":11457.112,"end":11480.18,"text":"26條整是每公斤31塊是這樣的一個決議當然你今天的報告寫得非常詳細也都有理由啦但是重點就是畢竟是立法院代表前台灣人民的民意所做的一個決議"},{"start":11481.832,"end":11507.226,"text":"所以在這樣的一個情形之下包括相關的附帶決議都是無意通過好回到你的報告公糧價格自63年起到113年歷經12次調升收購價格最近一次就是100年嘛100年現在113年所以是已經13年"},{"start":11509.855,"end":11529.04,"text":"好你這個報告裡面一直強調過去你的那個說明也是一樣一直強調會增加會增加種稻的一個面積如果我們看這個面積99年稻作面積24.4萬公頃100年25.4提高3塊3塊"},{"start":11539.141,"end":11545.766,"text":"也沒有增加多少啊兩公兩萬公頃對不對一直到現在還是還比以前少啊現在是112年去年22.2萬公頃所以也沒有增加所以這個部分"},{"start":11564.065,"end":11589.49,"text":"這是一個你們在實際的運作上當然你們有你們的考量我作為這個老公務員也都可以尊重但是畢竟是立法院所做的決議所以在這個部分還是我特別還是要請這個農業部能夠依立法院的決議給予支持"},{"start":11591.311,"end":11619.424,"text":"我跟委員報告我們非常尊重立法院的主決議那在這個主決議之下其實背後的一個精神就是要提高我們的道農所得那我們現在提出了這些一級二轉三加三的政策我們評估的結果是這樣的話才能夠照顧到整體的產業的所有的道農那我剛才也說過了就是公糧的收購它跟現在跟我們的集團產區的一個民糧的收購是並行的"},{"start":11619.924,"end":11619.944,"text":"部長"},{"start":11649.198,"end":11675.155,"text":"你提你今天的報告如類的非常詳細了尤其是今天一直在調123那個叫什麼方案一級二轉三加三這個方案你提了在這邊也提了很多次了我在這個這個電視上也看了聽了不影響你去推動這個方案三個方案你繼續去推動"},{"start":11677.008,"end":11705.32,"text":"如果推動的非常非常的棒非常非常的有成效這個人民就說這個不用了大家也不用去照例所以這個部分可以雙管齊下並同進行第一個就是要依立法院的決議來執行第二個"},{"start":11706.636,"end":11735.312,"text":"你原來要做的你現在要打算做的繼續做可以同時進行啊我跟委員報告齁就是公糧提高五塊跟我們現在推的它政策上本質上我也有一些矛盾特別是在我們在一級二轉裡面特別是二轉的部分我們希望說一些倒坐同樣是農民的收益我希望說他能夠轉成漢做以後得到我們的那個不中道獎勵以後提高他的所得那如果說公糧"},{"start":11736.152,"end":11737.133,"text":"我給你一個方向農業部一個方向民國100年12月5號"},{"start":11763.963,"end":11791.673,"text":"12月5號行政院來航給立法院為什麼會來航給立法院呢在100年12月的3號3號立法院做了一個決議做了什麼決議第一個因為老人農民津貼暫行條例修正了要增加老農津貼"},{"start":11793.24,"end":11819.497,"text":"第二個國民年金法也修正了要增加沒有修正的沒有法律法源的也併同這個決議併同譬如說老農的林農津貼等等包括農業部的有幾個也併同修正沒有法律的議題一樣照立法院的決議"},{"start":11820.706,"end":11848.86,"text":"行政院怎麼做呢12月3號立法院決議100年12月5號啊行政院就報了一個修正中央政府101年度的總預算三天之內啊就修正立法院行政院已經送到8月底送到"},{"start":11850.804,"end":11877.384,"text":"一百年八月三十一號以前送到立法院的一百一十一百零一年度的總預算修正喔增加多少增加很多光農業部啊就增加了七億多啊總共包括內政部、人民會總共修正增加了什麼一百六十三億六千七百萬"},{"start":11879.295,"end":11880.035,"text":"請陳冠廷委員質詢您好,我們請部長請陳部長"},{"start":11913.116,"end":11931.392,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長 農業部從108年試辦開放800多人的這個農業外籍工那到112年6月中旬是開放到1.2萬人那目前大概已經有引進8500多人 7成依據今年大概年底就會把這個擴大用完"},{"start":11931.932,"end":11951.743,"text":"那我看部長上次答詢的時候有說農業部跟勞動部爭取增加8000人讓外揚總數可以到2萬人我想請問目前爭取的結果如何?已經通過了那這個是一個很重要的一個福音要分享給我們這也是委員一直在協助我們爭取的"},{"start":11953.044,"end":11972.882,"text":"另外一個部分就是這個部分我們是非常肯定的第二部分要請教就是說農業移工首先是執行單位那我們地方的農會有在跟我們反映就是說現在中央是由農業部輔導師農業人力發展科交給地方農會來執行但是許多地方農會卻抗拒於這件事情"},{"start":11973.382,"end":11984.937,"text":"他說首先是第一個能力不足的問題第二個就是農會不會管理這種移工的部分所以如果移工他如果逃逸的話農會還會被罰錢他們是表達說有點吃力不討好這個問題你覺得該去怎麼樣解決"},{"start":11990.123,"end":12017.199,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是我們也感謝農會的一個協助來執行那我們在農會在有意願去處理這個我們會有個專案的講習跟輔導的部分因為外籍移工一定要有管理不能說他不是直接到家庭去的所以我們一定要找到一個中間的一個管理單位以現在農會跟農民的接觸的關係他是一個相對比較好的一個選擇"},{"start":12018.3,"end":12046.587,"text":"那至於說農會本身如果遇到什麼樣的困難的部分我想我們農業部一定會積極的去協助那幾個農會總幹事有向我反映他們是建議說農業移工大部分是從事農糧的工作那是不是可以讓由北中南東四個分署的農糧署來去承擔這個移工的相關的業務這是他們的建議或者是用其他的相關的這個大家農業部來思考一下找其他法人等等來去做這樣子的服務"},{"start":12047.327,"end":12065.585,"text":"不知道部長你怎麼看這件事我想公部門只能做受理的單位我們不能直接參與移工的管理所以除了農會以外我想我們也會積極的去看看有沒有什麼樣子的一個農民團體法人還是有什麼其他的方式來去想一下好不好這個東西我想我們會再來研議除了農會以外"},{"start":12067.086,"end":12090.995,"text":"再也就是農業移工的申請資格這部分有很多農民朋友來表達他是說像我們阿里山有很多茶園那他們需要茶工但是目前申請移工的面積是兩公頃以上那低於兩公頃或者是中間混有果樹的就不能申請這個部分農業部有沒有可能把申請面積調降到一公頃或者是說除了茶園面積之外雜糧面積10公頃以外"},{"start":12092.776,"end":12092.916,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12119.468,"end":12127.331,"text":"謝謝部長 這個很重要那最後就是關於水稻的捲葉蟲的部分那現在是二期到期間嘛那農友是很深受這個捲葉蟲的這個困擾"},{"start":12154.265,"end":12166.279,"text":"現在農民是朋友是來跟我們反映他說現在是初步啦初估現在的稻葉損害率是20%到70%左右是相當的嚴重所以如果可以的話部長我希望說農業部可以找時間"},{"start":12167.421,"end":12168.702,"text":"這部分是不是可以請農業部來做簡單的這個回應?"},{"start":12185.249,"end":12207.071,"text":"我跟委員報告就是水稻的部分因為它的基本性已經加入農業保險那農業保險不管你什麼原因我們就會只要超過20%我們就會去做一些理賠的部分那你剛才講的捲葉蟲就是野柳鳴的部分它是隨氣流的部分那剛好8月跟10月有颱風"},{"start":12208.933,"end":12209.273,"text":"好 謝謝是可以理賠的好 謝謝"},{"start":12244.571,"end":12249.377,"text":"我們中午不休息 延長到會議結束現在請李坤城委員質詢請陳部長"},{"start":12268.03,"end":12287.076,"text":"委員好部長好這個部長我本行是比較關心這個動保法的修正因為在今年五月的時候那時候我在質詢的時候我就說這個動保法的修正案預告已經一年了那希望說我們把動保法早一點送到這個立法院來做審議"},{"start":12288.436,"end":12311.518,"text":"然後在今年6月總諮詢的時候那我也問了這個行政院長當時您站在這個院長的旁邊那我也希望說這個趕快把動保法送到立法院的審議然後呢您當時是比較持肯定的態度就是說今年會送到這個立法院做審議那所以呢這個是在6月11號的"},{"start":12312.839,"end":12331.672,"text":"但是到目前為止好像農業部都還是在預告本席有兩個法案一個是寵物食品安全管理法這已經復委了9月的時候已經復委了一個是經濟委員會做審查然後動保法修正案在明天也會排入院會的報告事項"},{"start":12332.853,"end":12342.768,"text":"除了我之外其實還有很多委員都很關心動保法的修正案那就請教一下部長現在我們的動保法還在預告修正期嗎?從2023年的4月28號開始預告要修正了"},{"start":12349.758,"end":12362.689,"text":"到現在一年半的時間都還在預告嗎沒有沒有我跟委員報告齁就是在去年4月28的時候預告以後那預告以後我們接受到了非常多的外界的不同的意見我知道你們有經驗嘛齁我們一個原則齁就是"},{"start":12363.803,"end":12389.537,"text":"有共識的我們先納入這次的修法如果沒有共識的我們先擱著然後我們現在已經送到行政院在審議當中了那行政院如果審議通過的時候就會送到立法院來所以會在年底之前我想我們的目標就是年底之前會送到立法院來年底之前沒剩多久現在已經十月中旬了我們現在已經送到立法院行政院在做法條的審議了"},{"start":12391.118,"end":12416.669,"text":"那行政院一旦審議通過以後我們就會送到立法院來就會送到立法院來所以已經在布裡面已經送出去了所以你沒有跳票對不對因為那時候六月問你的時候你說今年會送到立法院對所以現在在行政院在行政院的我們已經送出去了對那所以今年能夠送來嗎對我們希望我們也會再跟行政院寫條說儘快能夠列入預選法至少今年先送過來雖然說在審預算當然也不知道有沒有預算可以審但是你們還是要"},{"start":12418.63,"end":12428.442,"text":"按照當時的承諾送過來這是動保法那這個有關寵物食品安全管理法的部分這個你們是9月5號開始預告大概是預告會多久"},{"start":12434.392,"end":12449.16,"text":"預告是60天因為當初我在立法院承諾的時候就是本來我們的寵物食品法是在動保法裡面的一個章節但是那個章節可能沒有辦法涵蓋到我們想要的管理的作為所以我們後來拉成專法"},{"start":12449.68,"end":12471.573,"text":"那專法裡面會從它的原料開始到它的製程到它後面的上市的部分都有一定的查核跟管制的作為那這樣的話會比較完善所以我們預告60天以後我相信也會接到不同各界的意見所以我們也會針對意見的部分來做一些調整以後然後再送到行政院去"},{"start":12472.193,"end":12482.522,"text":"那如果按照時程來講的話預告60天2個月那這個預告結束已經是11月的事情了11月多對然後你們還要再整理再送到行政院"},{"start":12483.882,"end":12506.999,"text":"我想我們在動保法已經有一個遊戲規則就是有共識的我們先處理不要再去溝通因為溝通可能一溝通又是每一條的溝通可能有好幾個月所以有共識的我們就先修先去處理完了以後送行政院那這個時候我相信會比較有共識啦能夠盡快的在這個會期那如果按照這樣的話這個重複食品安全管理法"},{"start":12507.839,"end":12530.501,"text":"我們也是如期我們的當初的一個承諾我問你就是說那現在動保法遇到修法上面會比較大的困難點在哪裡動保法是不是動保法其實比較有一點點的爭議的就是我們賦予動保檢查人員的一個就是必要的時候能夠進到私領域的這個部分"},{"start":12531.081,"end":12552.681,"text":"那有一些外界的聲音就會認為就是說他已經變成準司法警司司法的這種警察的一個權利了那可能什麼不一樣在我們部裡面的這個修正法案裡面他是可以進去的對私領域的部分但是我們也不是亂闖民宅啦就是我們還是會根據特別是有一些比較比較比較違法的這種飼養或什麼的時候我們"},{"start":12554.162,"end":12576.735,"text":"以前都是在門口他不開門我們也進不去一定要找警察嘛那現在其實我們跟警察有很好的合作那我們也希望說能夠讓這個法律通過以後然後相對的針對這些動保警察人員能夠在某個條件之下能夠進到私領域的話那對於以後的這種稽查非法的他是動保警察嗎"},{"start":12577.375,"end":12594.662,"text":"他不是動保警察他是動保檢察員所以他只是去查核而已而不是去執行所謂的司法在某一些情況之下他是可以進入到私領域對 我說有一些情況之下能夠進去這樣的話對於我們的稽查的效率會比較高一點"},{"start":12597.564,"end":12614.757,"text":"這個我們還在透過協商,那從法制的角度,就是他不會去干涉到司法警察的原來的權限但是我想我們還會跟外界做持續的溝通,因為這個牽涉到所謂的人權的問題,所以我們會盡最大的努力去做溝通"},{"start":12615.418,"end":12615.458,"text":"人權與動物權"},{"start":12636.66,"end":12664.265,"text":"這個修法就會遇到這個難題那我也希望說在這部分的話看你們怎麼去做處理在某些條件之下這個我想我們會有一些前提的設計因為我看你們的修正條文裡面是有把這一部分擺進去基本上我是支持的那比較重要的是強化事主的責任我覺得這個非常重要現在很多寵物本身特別是寵物的部分會變成流浪犬的部分就是事主本身的一個責任"},{"start":12665.365,"end":12665.585,"text":"請中嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":12703.909,"end":12710.274,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席政務機關長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請農業部陳部長跟農糧署的姚署長"},{"start":12721.27,"end":12744.736,"text":"部長好 署長好 公糧收購調過頭會遭致弊端 百億的預算照顧農民應該農損優先 我們來看一下部長 跟你介紹兩個新聞 官商勾結倒賣公糧 為豬的飼料米流入營養午餐這是在2009年發生的 還有用劣質米換公糧 農會侵占遷入公糧 為什麼我們的公糧買一買怎麼變成飼料米呢"},{"start":12745.509,"end":12767.872,"text":"有沒有覺得有點奇怪公糧真的會變成飼料米阿是不是如果量過多的時候他保存期限以後就變成飼料米好來公糧有時候會超過民糧的價格對不對結果呢在2013年發生我們屏東他低價買入市面的價格買入道股找人頭混充公糧出售後來被判刑啦好就是套利"},{"start":12769.013,"end":12778.319,"text":"為什麼因為我們公糧過剩會轉為飼料米你說的嘛對不對那因為什麼原因會造成公糧過剩收購價格嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":12779.352,"end":12808.63,"text":"所以收購價格會造成兩個問題一個是供過於求必須打入飼料米造成有弊端發生第二個公糧收購價格太高會讓有些人怎麼樣去套利是不是這樣子好我們來看一下前一張馬英九時期呢他調高公糧價格之後民糧的價格下跌了公糧高民糧價格低是不是會套利有可能嘛好往下看所以呢目前馬英九時期他調高了3元面積增加了多少"},{"start":12809.534,"end":12830.86,"text":"大約3萬公頃3萬多公頃那如果我們現在調高到8塊錢有可能會增加到28萬公頃預算需要146億是不是這樣是是沒錯嗎好往下看好那我請問一下國內的農民單一作物最大面積的是什麼是不是稻米稻米是單一作物最大農民是不是都種稻當然不是嘛對那稻農占全體農民比例多少"},{"start":12832.315,"end":12844.874,"text":"道農現在是22萬大概五分之一好那這五分之一的道農當中可以繳公糧的有多少大概一半沒有一半啦我算一算可以繳的不到35%啦"},{"start":12847.445,"end":12871.478,"text":"全部的是不是?對,全部大概三成左右。三成五嘛,對不對?所以說,我們對農民的照顧花那麼多的預算,投入在公糧收購,調過頭了,會有弊端發生。好,往下看。那我們來看一下,那可以繳公糧的農民資格有很多嗎?我們看一下,這麼多、這麼多、這麼多,是不是這樣?在我屏東的,農民有種稻的,多數不能繳公糧。"},{"start":12872.518,"end":12887.297,"text":"那他們期待什麼政府照顧?他們期待政府對他們建做的銅豆甚至有些是種香蕉的要補助、要支持。農業部有沒有照顧這些不是繳公糧的農民,不管他是不是盜農,有沒有要支持?"},{"start":12887.757,"end":12909.889,"text":"我們還是用另外的方式去支持我們所有產業的農民,這是我們的責任所以這次山河颱風,農損將近4億,屏東六層最傷,其中香蕉上次我還要問你,現在電蓋開尾順帝有請九十個,現在還在請嗎?你說你要考慮條件一下,多年期的長年期都入,你們要考慮,有沒有?是修訂了怎麼樣了?"},{"start":12910.689,"end":12934.12,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,現在我們其實昨天我們也在開會,那還沒有定論齁,就是針對跨年的齁,多年期的這些作物齁,本身齁,現在是以歷年制嘛齁,我們未來會考慮是以產期的制度,然後再加一些但書,如果說這個跨年的部分,如果遇到一些特殊的情況之下,可以再給予救助,這個部分我想我們還會再做進一步的,對"},{"start":12936.061,"end":12960.391,"text":"好 來 我們看一下 如果是147億 我們來看看農業部147億可以怎麼用農天水利編50億 自然防火變成45億 能源還有明年要再16億防患豬瘟 還有農發基金29億 電價差的補助24億我看每一項 它的優先順位都不亞於去支持一個有限的可以繳公糧的稻農的稻谷收購 你同不同意"},{"start":12961.471,"end":12981.392,"text":"我想我們也是這樣的一個想法去支持所有的農民是的所以我覺得萬事莫如舊災及這是農作天然災保險覆蓋率低嘛所以我希望我希望你們接下來的施政重點我當然知道每個委員有各自的重點但是我這樣講完很清楚我們政府照顧農民對不對"},{"start":12983.013,"end":13008.352,"text":"這是我們的責任是,農民不是只有稻農對不對是稻農不是全部都可以繳公糧而且繳公糧的是少數對不對對所以我們這麼多147的資源是把優先來照顧這些需要幫助的農民同意同意好往下看所以結合是我們農業災害的天然保險的扣抵強制險之外到113年的7月覆蓋率只有17%怎麼樣提高怎麼改善"},{"start":13010.399,"end":13022.856,"text":"我想整個農業的保險扣掉那個強制性的大概17左右那一個非常重要的就是它產量的一個基準的一個依據所以我已經要求我們的農經署做全面的一個檢討"},{"start":13024.707,"end":13053.508,"text":"我不要說隨便開一個保單然後保護只有一兩個而已所以我希望說他真正的能夠降低農民的經營的風險我們以這個目標很好所以請研議最後的結論請研議提升不含強制性的農作物天然災害保險提升他的整理覆蓋的方案一個月提書面報告可以嗎可以我們可以提出來那請這個書面報告請你們的農金署的署長跟你們新任的農業金庫的董事長和董經理我們找個時間一起談一談來找我可以嗎可以可以謝謝"},{"start":13061.203,"end":13061.603,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢。"},{"start":13081.203,"end":13091.729,"text":"市長,公糧保駕收購的歷史嚴格。當初會有公糧保駕收購,大概60年代,因為鼓勵基地生產。現在隨著國人使用米的習慣改變,加上從國外進口的數量也多,從1991年就開始。"},{"start":13108.837,"end":13130.19,"text":"每年的這個稻米的生產大概都大於需求我想了解一下日本跟韓國分在87年民國87年跟94年都取消了這個所謂的保價收購的制度我想請教這個農業部對公糧保價收購這個制度的看法"},{"start":13136.82,"end":13150.814,"text":"他會一直持續下去嗎?還是他會做制度的調整?照理說你現在稻米的每年都是供過於求,對不對?供過於求的數量大概是多少?每年大概多20萬噸20萬噸,那20萬噸怎麼處理呢?"},{"start":13156.006,"end":13182.528,"text":"我想我們現在的公糧如果說進到公糧兩年以後我們會變成舊米然後舊米就會變成飼料米然後飼料米賣出有沒有尋求出口的可能性然後這是第二個部分第二個部分就是說他在一年一年內的這些米我們可以當作救助米然後少部分的會外銷那最主要就是因為公糧收購的時候不限品種所以他本身"},{"start":13184.67,"end":13193.835,"text":"外銷的數量大概是多少呢?外銷大概十幾萬噸我們增加我們這個供給大於需求是20萬噸嘛那你就覺得說你多出來的就可以外銷啦?"},{"start":13202.594,"end":13211.708,"text":"是嗎?我想公糧的外銷的困難度會比我們集團產區的品牌品的外銷的困難度還高因為它的品質不穩定"},{"start":13216.863,"end":13240.501,"text":"全世界有保價收購只有台灣對於這個公糧保價收購而且只有單一品項對不對道米有沒有聽到其他的這個農產品也要要求保價收購我想我們在這一次的地方的一個座談跟之前的一些調查的過程裡面那其實針對"},{"start":13242.182,"end":13255.95,"text":"花卉的雜糧的蔬菜的部分其實他們對這個公糧的提高的議題因為公糧提高的是因為成本的提高他們覺得說如果這樣的話他也希望能夠受到政府的照顧"},{"start":13264.915,"end":13279.126,"text":"所以你要看10年20年這個公糧制度公糧保駕制度他的存續還是你要做調整還是他有個落日我跟委員報告就是我們現在的策略就是"},{"start":13281.14,"end":13300.292,"text":"會支持稻農所的是我們必要的所以當你的產力價格比較高的時候他就不繳公糧了他就會繳民糧然後慢慢的慢慢的如果大家都繳民糧不繳公糧的時候他就可以自然而然的降低他的一個比重那這個部分我想我們是讓整個政策的裝軌制"},{"start":13301.893,"end":13304.795,"text":"你未來會取消公糧收購保釣收購制度嗎?我想我們不會取消,但是我們會讓農民選擇"},{"start":13322.825,"end":13339.903,"text":"當農民選擇繳到產地的時候那相對的公糧的你現在所提的一級二轉三加三那不是就是針對公糧制度在做改革嗎對做調整但是我不會說我就取消了公糧的收購我們不會這樣做但是我會讓市場慢慢的由農民來決定"},{"start":13341.404,"end":13368.011,"text":"你能說明一下這個公糧收購的這個最大的政策的這個目的是什麼當初公糧收購最大的政策就是因為那時候缺糧現在基本上第一個有一部分是安全存糧的部分但是安全存糧依現在法定的是三個月那現在我們的安全存糧大概將近八個月到一年所以遠遠超過我們的安全存糧"},{"start":13369.191,"end":13376.786,"text":"那你要慢慢調整到就是說我們安全存檔的規定三個月如果你做到三個月就好了"},{"start":13377.762,"end":13405.717,"text":"那你現在多數5個月你現在到8個月嘛8個月到一年對啊多數5個月就把這個半年多數大概半年多7個月那這個部分是不是可以慢慢的往這邊去調整對我跟委員報告保駕照顧不是強制他一定要來是農民決定他要不要交所以當我把產地價適度的把它拉高的時候農民就會去繳產地的部分公糧收的就變得比較少以這幾年的例子來講從50幾萬變成30幾萬就是一個很好的例子"},{"start":13407.298,"end":13430.486,"text":"所以最高的時候公糧的數量是佔總量多少?沒有,它最高的話一年大概56萬噸左右大概將近三成,兩成五到三成之間最高大概三成那現在是幾成?現在大概,沒有,現在在兩成三到兩成八吧我記得有一個數字"},{"start":13433.571,"end":13446.186,"text":"現在已經不到三成了特別是這兩年大概只有兩成三左右報告裡面就是對於這個調高公糧價格會造成很多負面影響這部分你們做過相關的這個對"},{"start":13448.688,"end":13477.091,"text":"聽農民的意見或者農事單位農業相關機構的意見我想我們在研擬這個方案的時候其實我們有包括地方的一些座談然後希望用什麼樣的方式然後包括跟集團產區其實我們做了非常多的座談然後這個政策我們從上個月開始我們已經啟動了所有的說明會大概20幾場的說明會那農民普遍聽起來是支持這樣的一個政策啦但我不可諱言的還是有少部分覺得說"},{"start":13477.671,"end":13478.532,"text":"政策希望讓大多數的農民得利"},{"start":13505.543,"end":13525.447,"text":"那不是讓少數的農民得利嗎?是,是所以你要這個是你的政策的這個在制定的最主要的依據另外,跟你討論一下農業保險投表率低的問題這個你應該有相關的EOE來處理就是說,你這2017到2024這個農業保險的這個預算有增加了3.51倍但目前的覆蓋率覆蓋率"},{"start":13536.249,"end":13539.55,"text":"我跟委員報告這個保險預算的增加就是我們補助這個保險那我已經啟動了整個保險的重新的檢討我覺得保險不能說開了以後"},{"start":13563.032,"end":13563.873,"text":"主席有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":13600.819,"end":13619.038,"text":"委員吼這個部長我剛剛聽到你跟我們邱委員的詢答我忽然醍醐灌頂我忽然懂了你沒有要取消公糧收購嘛對不對我們現在不會取消公糧收購這個制度不會取消但你這實質費公糧啊"},{"start":13621.345,"end":13648.002,"text":"你意思不就是這個?我聽他詢答過的就是這個意思啊來我要一個一個問你齁我們通過立法院的決議案齁就收購價格每公斤新台幣26元調升到5元啦齁那我想請問公糧價格多久沒調整了?一百年,上次的調整是一百年十三年沒調整嘛,對不對?是那基本性是調整幾次?四次吧調多少幅度?"},{"start":13650.427,"end":13658.454,"text":"勞工基本薪資調整12次工資漲幅53.64%如果勞工薪資也調整不斷再給你13年好了26年後勞工薪資調整到100%那公糧收購價格你要不要調整"},{"start":13667.369,"end":13694.575,"text":"我想我想勞工薪資要調整到什麼程度你才要調整公糧價格我想公糧收購要去調整他不是考慮到其他的勞工的基本薪資好沒關係勞工基本薪資你不看那我再看下一個13年來物價指數上漲多少?超過15個百分點然後央苗上漲的幅度多少?13年來部長這你手要掌握一下大概10%大概10%"},{"start":13697.858,"end":13699.759,"text":"我講13年這都是我從你們農業部拿來的資料啦你看後面都在點頭上漲43%"},{"start":13718.28,"end":13743.449,"text":"所以現在我們講農民的公糧收購除非你剛剛是廢掉這個制度照你的邏輯是什麼我管你漲到43、53、83、330你的意思都不動囉公糧收購價格都不動囉我想我們沒有說公糧收購價格一定不動我們現在說法就是你剛剛回答的時候反正我就放在那個地方你總有一天你要去什麼到一般市場去賣"},{"start":13744.927,"end":13772.368,"text":"為什麼因為公糧收購價格照你的方式這樣擺下去你到最後賣給公糧是虧的你不就政策目的達成不過我想跟委員報告齁其實我們看的是我們關心的是產地的價格產地的價格才是支持產業的部長我回到跟你講一件事啊我們賴總統說啊他的使命是照顧2300萬台灣人民的生計啊然後要讓經濟的成功的果實跟全民共享難道農民是被排除在外嗎"},{"start":13773.257,"end":13801.804,"text":"沒有我想我們農業部的責任也是要去照顧農民謝謝啦從公糧收購做起吧我還是回頭一件事啊13年光央苗就漲了43%農藥肥料13年漲了多少?漲了25%可是你就是聞風不動26元你就是不肯調我今天的話雖然立法院決議調5元啦可是你現在是一塊錢兩塊錢三塊錢你也都不調啊不是嗎?"},{"start":13803.732,"end":13820.802,"text":"我跟委員報告齁其實我們農業部在看我們希望說照顧到農業的收益的過程之中我也要支持產業的永續發展這個才是重要的沒關係啦我支持你產業的發展理念你直接宣布公糧價格取消嘛制度取消你又不宣布取消你該派個實質判死刑"},{"start":13821.823,"end":13824.004,"text":"可是相對的他的收益跟他的產量也在不斷的滾動所以我們看的是最後的一個收益的部分"},{"start":13850.399,"end":13874.095,"text":"他的成本一直在漲,然後你的所謂的收購價格是固定在那個地方,你跟我講他收益在增加,我的數學可能沒有...沒有,我跟委員報告齁,因為我們的稻穀收購是雙軌的,所以現在稻農本身如果說你不繳公糧的話,你收益會不會比純粹繳公糧還高部長,我告訴你,你的政策齁,有些人受益,有些人受害"},{"start":13874.997,"end":13900.488,"text":"但是今天公糧價格為什麼今天立法院決議要做這個調整就是因為對現在的農民這些公糧收購的農民不公平嘛你過去整個政策你沒有調整的過程當中更何況我跟你講我沒聽前面的委員質詢我還不知道你的目的勒你搞了半天就跟他講反正總有一天你就要去市場賣阿你意思是這樣阿我確實阿你照你的做法你就非得到市場賣阿"},{"start":13901.889,"end":13918.824,"text":"公糧的收購是純粹指示繳公糧的人但是他會影響整個市場的一個機制的運作所以我跟你講你這麼情願直接把繳公糧這些人拖出去了啦我們會慢慢的引導他們到你沒有慢慢"},{"start":13920.188,"end":13946.441,"text":"所以我們很多集團栽培的部分反正我就是價格定在那裡到時候你攪公糧的人你就不用來攪了我跟委員報告我剛才也說了就是說我們現在目前我們希望一級二轉參加三的部分我知道你現在你要為政策辯護啦但是說真的今天公糧收購攸關的農民喔我是覺得今天你剛剛在前面委員答詢的時候我請農民好好聽聽啦到底原因是什麼謝謝"},{"start":13954.52,"end":13955.52,"text":"請認識保委員質詢謝謝主席有請農業部的陳部長請陳部長部長你好"},{"start":13981.653,"end":13999.578,"text":"今天早上我來了幾次聽你講了半天了你的態度非常嗆硬喔我們立法院決議公糧收購價格增加5塊錢結果你現在講一些五四三都聽不懂喔反正沒有人要聽 耳朵都關起來那我就問你是不是1塊錢都不要增我跟你們說5塊錢我做不到我加個加個2塊加個3塊都沒啥理1塊錢你不可以增 幹嘛咧"},{"start":14009.529,"end":14017.816,"text":"我跟委員講齁就是我跟委員報告齁就是我們看的是造體的成我們現在推了這個部分然後工糧的部分我們也會去處理我們以現在的規劃我們是不準備調整工糧的價格但是我們會試著我們後續的這些是我們立法院的決議"},{"start":14032.469,"end":14033.23,"text":"請問你,農業部運燃預算多少?"},{"start":14050.301,"end":14075.353,"text":"農業部公務預算是1692億基金預算大概747億2000億了對然後可用的可用因為有些撥補的部分可用的大概20002000多億了2000多億即便按照你算的其實你灌水很多啦說5塊錢的話會增加100多億這個是我們精算出來的那休耕怎麼算這個帳呢休耕為什麼算在裡面這個帳休耕休耕"},{"start":14078.646,"end":14080.907,"text":"關水啊!你那關水把其他的算成這個帳啊!恐嚇啊!真的啊!部長啊!"},{"start":14101.734,"end":14126.025,"text":"這個下一句話你可不可以回答?很簡單!卓榮泰或者賴清德叫你調你就調了啦!這樣就行了啦!看屯房稅這個公糧收購是一個很純粹的農業民生的問題結果這個看起來貌似中良貌似老實的一個陳部長原來這麼政治化來!我們來另外一個關心一個題目你不是喊出來"},{"start":14131.222,"end":14152.113,"text":"本本是先鮮乳先來鮮乳結果現在是四年四十四一結果現在只有15%喝鮮乳80%喝另外的補救乳這個情況現在你自己督導半半喝鮮奶就是賴總統"},{"start":14154.397,"end":14183.197,"text":"他上任以後的一個所謂的德政欸照顧我們的小孩子發育的更好營養更充足有蛋白質有鈣等等的喝鮮奶結果現在來講到你這裡執行的滴滴答答這個時候想到現在小學生變成農林榆木的救世主只要大陸那裡很卡結果馬上就學生來消耗"},{"start":14185.462,"end":14198.176,"text":"2022年 蔡英文執政的時候 班班吃十班 總共花了六億九個月 收攤啦 我不知道你班班喝鮮奶 什麼時候要收攤"},{"start":14199.421,"end":14199.541,"text":"是誰的口號?"},{"start":14217.749,"end":14217.769,"text":"致詢"},{"start":14240.639,"end":14241.48,"text":"什麼時候可以全部喝到?"},{"start":14263.351,"end":14263.751,"text":"沒有 這個簽字到學校的下單的部分齁"},{"start":14281.118,"end":14282.72,"text":"10月底一定可以喝到不一定喝鮮奶"},{"start":14303.403,"end":14303.704,"text":"有什麼不一樣?"},{"start":14315.609,"end":14331.125,"text":"他的品質營養都是一樣但是兩個就是他的配送的方式不一樣最後一個小問題就是欸哥法現在兩岸關係這麼緊張這麼不好欸哥法可能會全面取消喔這個對農產品的"},{"start":14332.947,"end":14346.335,"text":"影響是很大的還是影響不大?我想我們很持續的關切這個議題那以現在目前ECFA本身的18個品項來講以112年大概4170幾億然後它的關稅成本大概581億那這個581億其實也是一個風險所以我們會積極的針對比較重要的這些品項這些品項其實我們也盤點了"},{"start":14357.822,"end":14358.122,"text":"早就該做的嘛"},{"start":14381.381,"end":14405.286,"text":"有媒體公開呼籲啦,我們台灣的經濟水平比大陸高這麼多,要幹嘛啦?要幹嘛啦?我想我們重視每一個市場,包括中國市場,我們都重視這個東西還要去WTO,WTO就是公平貿易,你要佔人家便宜回到WTO的話,現在我們很多也禁止大陸農產品進來對不對?"},{"start":14409.151,"end":14430.32,"text":"禁止大陸農產品進來台灣吧有沒有這個是在多年前喔是嘛大陸農產品他也可以他自己都有啊他就是就是不管你是政治目的也好什麼的我們不要這樣看他沒意義的感覺就不要了感覺就不要了農產品就不要了"},{"start":14431.031,"end":14431.291,"text":"請圖全基委員質詢"},{"start":14461.943,"end":14484.501,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們部長委員好 部長你好根據我們農業部主力農家所得的調查那稻農的家戶收入看起來說收入過去10年是有成長的"},{"start":14486.257,"end":14509.202,"text":"那可是我們看這個報告發現其實他增加的都是農業外的收入可是他本身農業的收入其實並沒有成長也就是說他其實本身他在農業方面是沒有賺到錢他是靠其他的工作才追得上這個物價的成長這部分不知道部長有瞭解嗎"},{"start":14509.822,"end":14533.682,"text":"我跟委員報告就是根據我們的農家所得調查裡面他有分為從事農業的所得跟從事非農業的所得所以這個這裡看起來是應該是兩者一起加起來的部分那相對的就是以我們現在來看整個稻農本身22.5萬戶裡面那我們的資料顯示就是說你如果"},{"start":14534.463,"end":14538.914,"text":"用民間集團企作的所得會高於你純粹繳公糧的所得"},{"start":14541.485,"end":14566.226,"text":"所以我們看根據這資料顯示其實他是靠農業外收入才讓他的所得有所成長那農業部說增加公糧收購的價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家可是我們也查過針對這些其他像果菜雜糧這些農家他在10年的農業所得都比這些稻農高是不是也應該幫忙這些稻農"},{"start":14568.588,"end":14590.173,"text":"我跟委員報告其他的這些品項其實他是認真的照顧讓他用優質的產品去取得市場的價格比較高來支撐他的所得那倒座的部分我們的集團產區的氣座栽培也是這個道理他用品牌去提高他的所得但是公糧就是唯一就是靠政府的提高價格"},{"start":14591.173,"end":14613.411,"text":"所以我想我們也要引導就是要引導這些公糧的去做集團栽培用他的優質的稻米去支撐他的所得這個我想這個才是一個比較正常的一個市長機制好 所以我也看農業部的報告然後剛剛部長的說其實針對我們稻農的政策就是你們一級二轉3加3多元的輔導稻農"},{"start":14614.893,"end":14629.146,"text":"向輔導他去做契作轉作甚至宣傳10米教育等等但是這些其實我們都是支持我們也支持但是看起來這10年做下來好像立竿見影看不到特別的成效"},{"start":14630.618,"end":14652.28,"text":"我想整個稻作的一個產業結構的調整其實我們有其他的配套去做那最重要的是我把面積如果滋生在某一個面積的話大概是24萬公頃左右的話那相對的產力價格提高的時候對稻農的收益就有幫助所以我們的市選商我們的大區輪作包括我們的對地給付其實都是滋生稻農的這些所得"},{"start":14653.123,"end":14675.961,"text":"而且你看喔最近喔其實你仔細去看現在喔肥料生產工具全部價格都成長好那農業部說怕這個公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本的再度上升可是你要知道這些這些公糧價格這十幾年沒調漲這些都已經漲成這樣所以我們說這十幾年"},{"start":14678.323,"end":14678.363,"text":"我...我..."},{"start":14695.036,"end":14717.177,"text":"您剛才講的肥料跟農藥的部分其實在這三年來其實它並沒有增加它增加這其他的部分因為我們對我們針對稻農我們也輔導它就是合理化私肥跟合理化用藥所以它的農藥本身並沒有太大的波動跟肥料的部分那整體來看它的成本是增加了"},{"start":14717.917,"end":14731.074,"text":"大概9%左右大概10年間但是相對的他的產量也做了一些一些精進跟提高所以以稻穀每一公斤稻穀的產量的話他大概減少大概2%並沒有到達10%那樣子"},{"start":14733.437,"end":14751.17,"text":"部長我說我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這問題也有銷售計畫的面向像我們農家繳的這些公糧的數量跟稻農種植的面積它不是只有看價錢你看根據我們調查的數據顯示"},{"start":14752.731,"end":14781.36,"text":"像我們112年我們預計收購382,000噸結果沒有收購到還去市場多採購4萬多也就是說事實上像氣候供水輔導休耕等等都可能會對它有所影響所以我說農業部不應該針對好像價格提高就會跟我們農民繳交這個數量畫上等號你擔心好像提高"},{"start":14781.9,"end":14800.42,"text":"你就會收太多銷售不出我跟委員報告您這個表就是一個非常好的例子就是說當你在100年的108年的話我是7萬5那時候的面積是27萬然後到了112年是33點表示說他沒講那麼多是表示說你產力價值提高的"},{"start":14801.061,"end":14823.284,"text":"因為農民繳公糧是自願的當你的產地價高的時候他就去繳產地了繳民糧了他就不繳公糧所以公糧本身的收購數就會變少這是一個好現象就是說因為產地價比公糧的收購價還高所以這個部分就是我們要控制面積盡量讓產地價提高才會讓我們的稻農的所得整體來提高"},{"start":14824.025,"end":14838.284,"text":"所以我說啊基本上像我們農業部去做一些輔導他們轉型、企作然後甚至提高他的品質去有更好的價錢去市場賣他也不會說等你公糧價格來收購所以我們說"},{"start":14839.145,"end":14843.568,"text":"我們應該 農業部擔心這個糧正業務造成財政負擔的問題我們說 其實應該針對去除純糧的數量還有收入金額的檢討 不應該單方面只檢討這個公糧收購價格支出的問題"},{"start":14857.6,"end":14880.238,"text":"是 我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了 制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話會對於整個稻農的收益會更好"},{"start":14880.658,"end":14895.696,"text":"那後續我們也會來檢討這個公糧本身的這些收購的部分不只是看那個價格還要看其他的因素這個後續我們會來處理部長我們是建議啊都能夠並存啦是你公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義啊十幾年沒調漲"},{"start":14896.897,"end":14918.946,"text":"那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義"},{"start":14928.447,"end":14929.007,"text":"請郭國文委員質詢請陳部長"},{"start":14947.384,"end":14973.943,"text":"委員部長好部長那個公糧收購不應該成為稻農的唯一提高收入的一個方法吧是好那但是大家已經討論非常多但是本席呢想要針對最近發生的這個台米颱風的問題之後呢那我們看到貴部啊修正這個天然災害補助辦法受理時間呢延長了到10天10個工作天"},{"start":14974.864,"end":14980.327,"text":"然後災損又再延長5天持發性的認定提報從3個月變成6個月取消了20%的規定只確認這個重養殖的事實是不是有這樣的修正"},{"start":14990.953,"end":15013.008,"text":"對 我想非常感謝委員一直對天然災害救助應該更貼切到農民那我們從基層端受理的時候他如果限於10天公所的壓力會很大所以我們做彈性的調整從日一天變更多的天你前面的作業要調整本期沒有什麼太大建議你要確保後面的認定不要有所爭議但是關鍵還是撥補的部分要趕快"},{"start":15017.071,"end":15034.15,"text":"你像現在呢最近這件事情呢從7月啊那個7月的時候所認定的這一個那個天然災害的認定你不分品項這個是好的作為但是申請之後到現在已經快一個一季了"},{"start":15035.111,"end":15056.82,"text":"都還沒有什麼 去7月16號到現在全品項的先進救助都殺各位我每天這些基層被人家問欸昨天晚上我還收到LINE對我知道 跟委員報告齁我們只要收到地方政府報上來3年之內一定播然後我們播到地方政府地方政府才會轉播所以你是說出在地方政府嗎對 我們的資料顯示齁我們現在"},{"start":15059.861,"end":15079.296,"text":"我們現在的資料顯示以台南市來講齁就是他提出來大概是5億多對齁然後現在已經撥付了3億多然後還有2億多那2億多也是這幾天來的我們3天之內一定會撥出去是齁那有一部分的區域污染啦齁因為縣市政府區域的話可能縣市政府還要復刊"},{"start":15080.116,"end":15102.399,"text":"他還沒有送到農業部部長如果是假設深圳政府行政流程延誤的話你們也從你們一個這個指導單位當中應該去跟他調整一下那個縮短那個流程嘛否則的話我們當初要求你們下來進行撥博每天是被人家問那決定權又在你們身上那不是我們好不好我想我們會一起來努力針對地方政府在撥的部分"},{"start":15104.06,"end":15124.282,"text":"另外一個就是有一個擴大灌區的部分因為以前在山區的部分本期的部分南西玉井的部分都還是灌區但是你們在去年的時候說沒有水源把它變成非灌區但問題呢過往以前有一些灌溉的這個溝渠兼排水的作用"},{"start":15124.923,"end":15150.663,"text":"但是呢那些設備大家還是要使用啊就後來就找不到事主沒有人要補助啊說你們就要廢除掉了違反信賴保護原則嘛當初把它劃已經劃到裡頭了這是第一個問題部長第二個問題呢之前我們的擴大灌區擴大那個非灌區擴大灌區的概念就是原來的灌區以外的一個非灌區的部分把它擴大本來就是農業部的政策不是嗎是"},{"start":15152.225,"end":15163.581,"text":"對阿 那農業部的政策之後呢後來又變成是充滿變數本來呢在南西有一個示範區後來也沒有可能再大就沒有消息了那本席很想知道你這政策的態度到底是如何"},{"start":15164.76,"end":15181.637,"text":"我跟委員報告 特別是南溪的部分 我也要求我們農水組去趁著執行因為擴大灌區本身是我們農業部既定的政策 不管怎麼樣一定要克服這個一定要克服 就算地方有一些 早期的好像沒人管"},{"start":15182.117,"end":15193.113,"text":"但是他只要是能夠提供我們農民的水資源我們就會去服務這個我已經要求我們農水組確實去做到政策要延續是好的政策過去認為是一個慣區的東西你既然大政策要動"},{"start":15197.679,"end":15198.279,"text":"最後呢我要跟您講一件事情齁"},{"start":15225.618,"end":15250.595,"text":"我最近在進行那個台日交流,日本方的國會議員就講說那個蔓苗的部分很奇怪台灣的蔓苗都不能過去他們那邊反而走私到香港,你先看這個圖在2007年的時候我們的頭期蔓禁止出口之後結果呢我們就沒有蔓苗出口結果後來變成這個紅線都從香港到日本原因在哪裡?原因很簡單嘛,就是我們走私到那邊去嘛"},{"start":15251.155,"end":15276.45,"text":"那麼走私跑去那邊之後人家說我們就開放漁業協定的時候大家來談就好了就問了一下漁業協定也沒有協定明明是一個很大問題臺日之間有漁業協定為什麼不能拿出來談呢對不對然後第二個問題正慘的是我們現在蔓延要從哪邊來我們走私出去蔓延要從哪邊來就從中國大陸來那如果中國大陸來的話哪一天養套殺又把你斷掉那你臺灣的蔓延草原不是game over了嗎"},{"start":15277.421,"end":15300.349,"text":"對不對?部長,這問題很重耶!特別是蔓苗的部分,特別是投蔓苗的部分我們也希望說,第一個我們要確保我們自己的一個產業第二個蔓苗可以銷日本的部分,我們一定要透過任何的管道去溝通啦!包括那個時間點,因為剛好日本的這些產季跟我們錯開的部分有沒有辦法更好的方式?現在因為有一些可能"},{"start":15301.369,"end":15328.881,"text":"受到特別的這些蔓苗的傷在左右啦那這個部分我想我會要求那個那個漁業署這邊部分一定要去解決我可以說一定要要求漁業署這個蔓苗產業啊岌岌可危啊你把你的生命的那個咽喉掌握在對方的手中什麼時候被掐了你都不曉得對我們也不希望這個發生我想我們會要求漁業署這邊謝謝委員的提醒我們本來在軟牛上是最有優勢的地方來投機盲是最好的耶"},{"start":15329.941,"end":15330.601,"text":"請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 邀請陳部長"},{"start":15364.633,"end":15382.445,"text":"會長好,針對今天召委所排定的議程,我們的目的也就是要好好照顧農民。從早上到現在本席所聽的,也就是似乎您的方向跟提案委員的方向是不太一樣。"},{"start":15384.478,"end":15409.354,"text":"當然本席也可以看出說你終結還是希望能夠好好的照顧農民對不對但是我們就實務的民主程序來看也就到目前為止立法院在7月16號通過的公糧收購案來要求你因綜合考量各項的成本"},{"start":15410.074,"end":15428.677,"text":"包括人工包括肥料包括物價指數將公糧收購的價格呢從26塊來提升5塊以因應目前物價指數的一個波動導致我們農民他的一個成本的一個增加"},{"start":15429.298,"end":15454.607,"text":"因為十幾年都沒有提升這是你政府的政策但是到目前為止立法院三讀通過那麼行政院也沒有復議因此在10月9號的時候財政部跟主計單位來立法院報告我們就針對民主程序他一句話他說尊重農業部"},{"start":15456.227,"end":15465.418,"text":"所以本期要請教農在行政院也沒有做復議的情況之下現在要請你們從議你會不會編提高公糧收購的價格的預算你會不會編"},{"start":15472.305,"end":15473.968,"text":"請告訴我會不會編：針對本席的提問因為立法院7月16號通過那在這樣程序行政院也沒有附議"},{"start":15489.668,"end":15500.557,"text":"那10月9號剛才本席所說的論述所以本席還是要請問你你會不會編在你行政院從議的時候農業部會不會編公糧收購提高的價格我們現在目前並沒有去針對五塊錢的經費去做經費的調整但是我們增加所以換句話說沒關係我們一項一項講所以換句話說你不會編"},{"start":15517.711,"end":15520.533,"text":"是不是?目前沒有編未來會不會編?民主程序行政院沒有復議你會不會編?你告訴我會不會就好那你告訴我針對於立法院7月16號所通過的這個決議那你會不會編?"},{"start":15541.294,"end":15544.924,"text":"所以換句話說你不會變我可以這麼解讀嗎?我可以這麼解讀嗎?"},{"start":15549.326,"end":15554.829,"text":"請針對本席的提問我們現在是一個民主國家照程序各方有各方的意見不一都可以討論但是我們現在走到民主程序是這樣子請問農業部部長陳部長你會不會依據立法院三讀通過行政院送請行政院行政院沒有賦予你會不會編這個預算"},{"start":15578.539,"end":15584.203,"text":"我還是跟委員說明你會不會編告訴我請告訴本席你會不會編我們現在目前並沒有這樣的規劃我們希望委員來支持換句話說你就是不甩立法院嘛行政院也沒有復印"},{"start":15594.97,"end":15616.405,"text":"行政院沒有復議你現在告訴本席是說你不會編我要讓社會大眾大家看清楚誰要照顧農民我們得到了一個答案也就是說立法院三讀通過行政院沒有復議竟然我們農業部也不編我要告訴給民眾我要告訴給農民"},{"start":15625.43,"end":15627.671,"text":"我請問你還是聽你的話在繳公糧的人這些人怎麼辦這幾年沒有提升這些人怎麼辦這些人怎麼辦"},{"start":15651.343,"end":15653.584,"text":"我告訴你這一些人沒有功勞也有苦勞阿沒有理由不照顧他們阿我今天要轉什麼政策都好但是聽你的話的人"},{"start":15674.724,"end":15698.156,"text":"竟然是這麼樣得不到照顧那你要怎麼辦 你對得起他們嗎 對不對你要不敢廢掉你要做什麼政策 我們都OK但是是未知數欸現在乖乖聽你政策的人還在繳公糧的人十幾年十幾年你薪水都漲了幾次啊十幾年都沒有漲"},{"start":15699.036,"end":15701.818,"text":"你還大大大地說我要照顧他我請問聽你的話的人該當得到懲罰嗎?不應當所以部長我相信你也是照顧你也是照顧農民的人本席的話你好好去聽沒說話沒哭話乖乖聽你的竟然還要得到懲罰十幾年沒長對不起我們的農民"},{"start":15721.095,"end":15729.729,"text":"你自己冷靜去想我希望在你從議的預算能夠看到這筆預算好不好你趕快去研議接下來本期要跟你討論的"},{"start":15731.192,"end":15755.997,"text":"也就是極端氣候我們現今救助的部分32.7億在累計這10年來平均你支出這樣子那在這種情況之下我們好不容易去推動農保 農業保險可是我們看到你的數字你明年所編列的是11.3億左右但是我們看到你實施的也就每一年"},{"start":15757.357,"end":15772.764,"text":"這上映但是我們看到你的數字我們的農保覆蓋率他沒有達到兩成耶為什麼為什麼你這扣掉扣掉你的這個強制納保的這個部分你實際上只有多少"},{"start":15773.524,"end":15798.042,"text":"只有多少 17.6%所以該當怎麼辦該當怎麼辦 極端氣候像我們的離子我沒有想到它掉在袋子裡頭耶結果它是不會長 因為它的根斷了一半對不對 我們都去看了每一次我們都要現金救助 我的心都痛了農民該當怎麼辦 我們好不容易有一個政策去做這個農業保險 那為什麼"},{"start":15800.928,"end":15809.274,"text":"為什麼執行不來?扣掉強制保險,剩下17.6%,你要怎麼因應?你要怎麼因應?你要求他們重新檢討,什麼時候有因應方案,你是推廣不夠,人民沒有信心,還是認為我都沒問題,我要怎麼辦?那你講話要讓"},{"start":15826.407,"end":15843.119,"text":"農民聽得懂啊 要讓你 人家對你有信心啊所以我覺得要求農經署跟我們的所屬單位再去跟農民做溝通 因為不是只有溝通 他們很辛苦都有在溝通我覺得保單的設計如果好的話保單設計好的話一定會你現在講到重點 保單的設計也就是我這棵柴 有湯薄 可以賠我隔壁不能賠 誰會甘願啊"},{"start":15855.836,"end":15856.878,"text":"這樣是不公平的我這股產我這一塊圓我可以賠我隔壁的不能賠"},{"start":15866.158,"end":15892.058,"text":"你的請募方式要不要去跟保險公司去檢討啊?這個就是我要求農金屬檢討就是保單的設計跟保單的理賠的標準跟保單要發生理賠的這些調查這個都需要精心去精準的去計算你的調查你應該點要放多啊對不對?這個我們已經要求農金屬再處理而且時間可以告訴我們你們討論的方向改變的方案"},{"start":15893.087,"end":15895.85,"text":"最後一個議題本席請問你為了這個雞蛋進口的搞的送檢調行政處分不知道答案是什麼本席絕對不願意看到一個國家是這麼的紛亂"},{"start":15920.54,"end":15934.214,"text":"要進口搞了這麼多的事情現在每一天我們剩餘每一天耶雞蛋農啊苦哈哈每一天剩餘多少一百萬克"},{"start":15936.092,"end":15940.334,"text":"你們的主管告訴我們什麼?未來會請國防部學校多使用雞蛋並請養雞協會規劃雞蛋促銷活動以協助消化雞蛋這個不是我們的政策不是你的政策為什麼要這麼說呢?讓我們一桶霧水欸我告訴你這個寫這句話我們的國軍我們的學生他要以他的營養為基準來吃東西欸"},{"start":15965.668,"end":15982.395,"text":"對所以我說這個絕對不是我們的政策我先說明這個絕對不是我們的政策那相對的學校的營養午餐一定是營養師根據學童的需求去設計的我們不會去干涉那這該怎麼辦這樣的表示要怎麼處理你要不要澄清"},{"start":15985.996,"end":15988.037,"text":"本席不希望造成家長孩子我們的阿兵哥家長都恐慌所以本席要請教那怎麼解決"},{"start":16009.505,"end":16011.725,"text":"部長你現在說的還是在怪罪於業者啦你應該針對你是農業部阿"},{"start":16037.091,"end":16047.611,"text":"你要拿出你的方案 你的總計要不要控管你要從源頭啊 你不從源頭叫人家今天多生一點明天少生一點"},{"start":16049.655,"end":16076.551,"text":"誰聽你的話他要生出來不生怎麼辦啊你應該從總機去控管本期要跟你討論這個議題也就是說你應該要好好的去討論我們要解決這個問題你一方面要進口二方面又剩餘那麼多你的問題點交集點在哪裡你的最原本他這個蛋從哪裡來從總機來總機要不要控管"},{"start":16077.071,"end":16094.905,"text":"你有沒有控管總機有沒有去輔導請教我們有在輔導現在總機有在控管但是一個非常重要的就是說我不大願意再用補助的方面去將他們淘汰因為我淘汰了老母雞他們又進了新雞那對整個產業是沒有幫助的你講到這邊也就是部長我們一個結論你以往的政策你給老母雞我一隻一隻多少錢啊"},{"start":16103.157,"end":16123.87,"text":"去除的一支多少錢嘛 對不對鼓勵他們去除嘛 對不對你執行了一段時間你應該要滾動式去檢討所以表示之前的這個政策你是不成功的那你要怎麼辦你應該有研議方案出來好不好你去研議方案出來啦進口出了那麼多的"},{"start":16124.991,"end":16125.311,"text":"我大概兩個禮拜就可以提供給"},{"start":16152.739,"end":16155.5,"text":"我想還趁這個機會能夠呼籲我們的消費者因為供需總是要有一個平衡那在需求端的部分希望說我們鼓勵我們所有的消費者"},{"start":16179.631,"end":16179.751,"text":"請蔡議員發言"},{"start":16217.95,"end":16219.756,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":16228.376,"end":16255.927,"text":"委員好部長好部長因為今天在討論這個公糧的收購價格事實上我過去也召開協調會甚至我在質詢的時候我也是有跟農業部這邊說如果我們在於針對農民的收入提高公糧的價格是可以考慮的一個辦法但是提高公糧價格我們除了稻農要照顧之外事實上還是有其他的農民"},{"start":16256.847,"end":16285.683,"text":"是,我想以農業部的立場就是說我們對產業對所有的農民都要有比較一致性的照顧的一個方式對,所以事實上部長你也知道說就像嘉義啦嘉義或是雲林啦我們就是正好介在平原的地方大概都是種植稻米比較多那在沿海地方就是種植雜糧雜糧的部分,對那如果是雜糧,你說黃小玉講玉米就好了,講玉米"},{"start":16287.563,"end":16304.389,"text":"這個玉米的保價收購多少錢?9塊現在是每公斤9塊9塊嘛對不對我看起來已經將近40年了40年沒有調整那個不是保價那是器做的一個價格他是器做價格所以他是沒有調整他唯一價格好的時候就是在"},{"start":16306.369,"end":16330.278,"text":"這個疫情的時候那個時候因為航運出問題他有把他的玉米價格有飆到了差不多12塊那是他最好的時候看起來隨著疫情的結束那航運現在已經都順暢了整個價格又掉下來現在大概又掉到7塊多所以你現在對於種植雜糧的農民他是事實上種10年都覺得吃不公平"},{"start":16331.355,"end":16349.056,"text":"因為你如果想,我們好的土地有打造水路、有打造灌溉的,那些都是種稻米的,種雜糧的,他們就是叫做旱區,旱區本身他們那裡的水也比較少,那是種不公平的。然後我再跟部長提示一個問題就是說,你們一直在說"},{"start":16351.584,"end":16364.743,"text":"像現在你們要說一級二轉那一級二轉的我講這個二轉二轉的精神就是說我們希望稻米減量啊稻米減量齁啊這個自然價格會上車嘛剛才說芥農就會講到供需的問題啊"},{"start":16366.725,"end":16375.974,"text":"所以如果種植的減少了自然它的稻米的價格會上升這個是第一個問題第二個就是說我們還是希望這個把種稻因為台灣的稻米糧食過剩所以我們希望把種稻的面積轉為去做轉做轉做雜糧或轉做其他的類似蔬菜蔬果類"},{"start":16388.045,"end":16416.608,"text":"那轉做的話我們有給他這個轉做金對我跟委員報告就是說這些水稻因為二級做本身的收益就比較比一起做還不好所以我們希望說二級做的部分你如果轉成雜糧的部分轉成其他的部分我們給他一萬五的不重道獎勵以外那相對的這些後續送雜糧的部分我們也會引導一些集團栽培來協助他我們也會補助一些農業的機械讓他也變成一個比較自動化的機械化的一個栽培"},{"start":16417.348,"end":16441.99,"text":"所以我們說有這個不中道獎金但是我要跟部長講這個在農民在實踐上有他的一個困難這個困難就是我要說的因為我們現在又我們有很多政策要大家一起來全面去看我們現在又有所謂四選三我們又有大區輪座但是我們的四選三是讓農民去選所以你現在說好我要把它轉成不中道獎金他去做"},{"start":16442.992,"end":16448.847,"text":"種植玉米他去種植漢作,但是他種植的時候,他最怕的是怕什麼?怕旁邊的人繼續要種植啊?"},{"start":16451.227,"end":16455.169,"text":"所以這就是委員一致關心的那我們現在就是說以前是純粹當然沒有說都是自願的啦但是我們希望說他在輪作的時候能夠用一個集團的概念去處理"},{"start":16475.658,"end":16492.43,"text":"那這樣處理的時候會比較不會造成說隔壁中水道這就沒辦法我們期待他這個一定要你們用所以我們有一些政策的誘因去處理政策誘因之外我感覺稍微施加強制啦你如果說我這區就要用四選三啊既然這樣就讓他們集體做四選三讓他們的決定一樣嘛"},{"start":16497.274,"end":16515.986,"text":"對,我想我會做相關的一個規範,這個部分委員上次有提到齁,我們已經在做一些規範,就是想辦法讓他們一致性,雖然說自願的,但是他的自願的一致性是非常重要的,這個部分我想我們會再做後續的更精進的一些誘因的設計。部長你也知道,我們最近我才跟你討論說,加金輪高位來齁,不要說紅胎啦,加煉水爐齁。對。"},{"start":16526.653,"end":16542.818,"text":"就有困難對連種植綠肥都有困難了餒是對阿所以你也知道說你那種漢做的尤其他在大家開始齁要補的時候他是很怕水的是阿他如果怕水阿像我剛才講的你沒有辦法做好整體的控管等於是說對於當地農民的種植他是很困擾的了解"},{"start":16546.079,"end":16560.894,"text":"所以我覺得我們農業部我們除了這要一級二轉然後要去提高農民的收入事實上很多配套措施還是要讓整個農作是順暢的瞭解阿不是空氣多點的話因為他們總會遇到很多這種我們沒辦法去預測的一個狀況好不好"},{"start":16564.285,"end":16585.6,"text":"阿第二個齁就是我要講到這個農業保險這個農業保險因為我上次只講到時間比較短齁就是說這個農業保險齁我們知道這個保險覆蓋率事實上剛剛那個郭國文委員有講到保險覆蓋率是一直偏向不足那這個保險覆蓋率不足勒主要還是說他除了強制"},{"start":16586.64,"end":16614.158,"text":"強制的部分之外我們去用加強型的但是這個加強型的勒對於農民來說那個誘因就是機會起來雖然我們政府都有補助像我們在嘉義我們嘉義縣政府又再補助三分之一啊農業部這邊也補助三分之一剩下的部分對農民來說大家都說保費不高可是問題他們去補的誘因就沒有啊所以我覺得部長你們有去跟農民聊然後去了解到底實際原因出在哪邊嗎"},{"start":16616.419,"end":16641.301,"text":"我已經請農金署重新去檢討第一個我覺得保單的設計非常重要保單的設計如果沒有當然理賠不是要去賺錢但是保單的設計一定要符合風險那另外一個就是保單理賠的時候的調查那個非常重要因為調查如果說你沒有一個比較均勻的樣本數的時候就會造成很大的爭議那有一些保單是因為你理賠的爭議性造成農民覺得說"},{"start":16642.602,"end":16647.083,"text":"這部分就是大家都驚訝我覺得對於農民來說誘因不足這只有在一個他們覺得不合用而且現在我覺得農民事實上還是都把這一個"},{"start":16665.567,"end":16677.657,"text":"這個保險因為他們過去有天然災害的一個救助所以他們認為說既然有天然災害救助跟這個保險跟這個保險有災害救助然後這個保險沒有更好的誘因"},{"start":16678.902,"end":16682.745,"text":"我個人來講我不要衝那個品項越來越多我寧願品項如果說覺得沒有什麼效果我寧願關掉我寧願讓開的保單都是農民需要的"},{"start":16704.46,"end":16705.602,"text":"好部長我最後一個問題齁我們那個鋪紙肉品市場那"},{"start":16720.677,"end":16743.588,"text":"阿甘現在到底稍微算可以開始興建阿甘現在對待的就是說若敏市長現在的經費大概都已經在那邊了但是相對的就是說他必須要有一個經營主體來去做這樣的一個承接可是這不是討論好久的嗎對 那個經營主體本身現在還談不攏阿"},{"start":16744.942,"end":16754.833,"text":"對,這個部分我想我們會後有機會再跟委員報告。那到底什麼時候可以發報?那現在工程應該可以先開始了吧?因為工程還是需要時間的,你要知道我們在鋪紙肉品市場的決策就是當時把它停的太早。"},{"start":16765.385,"end":16770.35,"text":"對於這些肉品的這個承銷人,他們也增加了他的不便利。當然這部分,我們農業部有補助他,但是問題都一直還在啊。這些問題又等到興建好正式營運上路,靠阿都該關欸。"},{"start":16791.108,"end":16814.549,"text":"現在看到你們到底什麼時候可以新建這件事情大家都不知道那個經營主體要出來才能提計畫才能夠去執行啊而不是說因為現在沒有一個主體去提計畫來執行那因為包括我們的嘉義縣政府嘛然後還有續展會嘛然後還有嘉義的這些農會的部分嘛"},{"start":16814.989,"end":16825.366,"text":"那這三個三方要合資成一個公司以後再來提那這三方現在還在做協調我們會來努力做一個基本的這個協調也好久了那到底問題是出在哪邊"},{"start":16827.543,"end":16844.932,"text":"這個我想有他們的不同的想法啦那這個部分我想可能後續我們還會再努力啦部長我覺得這個是要加速啦因為那個官黑後面是很多人的包括是他整個我們嘉義地區肉品的產業鏈都因為這件事情都出總控了因為肉品"},{"start":16845.732,"end":16864.001,"text":"普子肉餅市長是一個典範他是一個那個土體的分級的一個那個拍賣的部分他跟現在的活動拍賣是不一樣的所以他是一個我們也很期望他趕快大家都期待啊但是隨著時間一直拖一年一年過去我們盡量來協調他們的經營主義這課程要拖很久的耶我們很感動的不然我們經費掛在那邊也不是辦法好好好趕快加速麻煩謝謝"},{"start":16881.384,"end":16896.579,"text":"請侯孟楷委員質詢主席謝謝好主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":16905.165,"end":16915.664,"text":"部長 辛苦啦不過剛剛本席聽到你回答幾個委員的一個部分的時候有講到說斑斑有鮮奶這樣的一個政策不是我們農業部說啊"},{"start":16918.132,"end":16945.492,"text":"我想斑斑有鮮奶這幾個字不是我們對外的一個宣導那我們正式的一個計畫是把我們的國產的這些產銷優質的這些牛奶牛奶優質的牛奶進到學校那相對的他不只是鮮奶我就好奇啊教育文化委員會教育部部長、次長、農業部次長來立院報告也是斑斑有鮮奶的準備執行"},{"start":16947.186,"end":16973.372,"text":"這是教育文化委員會那天召委他的一個這個題目那今天行政院17號今天早上也下令斑斑有些奶改推新措施啊認了政策有瑕疵啊所以與其我們一直在講這個說話這個這個名稱跟我們的計畫內容不一定因為現在全國國人都知道而且是連那個我們教育部或說連行政院也都認為說政策就是這個樣子啊"},{"start":16974.591,"end":16993.945,"text":"所以我覺得與其說我們還要去爭辯說我們當初沒有講這個事情,搞不好說怎麼樣來思考經濟這件事情我非常同意齁,就是因為是剛才有委員說我們在推先來,我說我強調的是那個先來的字就是說我們當初給學校的時候尊重學校的一個訂購因為一開始,會聽到第一個掰掰有先來的時候,其實我就擔憂喔"},{"start":16999.665,"end":17028.084,"text":"學校有偏鄉有山區有海邊有大的學校我的選區裡面光本席的選區就好有大的學校一屆一千多人將近兩千人也有小的學校六個年級加起來18人那這樣子的一個落差你有辦法真的做到斑斑有鮮奶嗎沒有辦法嗎所以說到目前為止我即便我問了教育部部長教育部部長我甚至問他說即便是薄酒乳啦"},{"start":17029.161,"end":17057.111,"text":"你到今年年底前有沒有辦法他不敢回答我那什麼意思就代表說政策的初衷我們要支持政策的初衷可以給小朋友喝到牛奶喝到鮮奶喝到優質奶本席都同意但是不需要用這樣子來去做轉變然後到最後好像一推二五六教育部不認說這是農業部而是農業部不認說這個跟計畫不相干我講農業部絕對沒有不認好部長所以本席比較那個你班班有牛奶嗎"},{"start":17058.308,"end":17065.844,"text":"那斑斑有牛奶可能有人講說那羊奶算不算好的牛奶斑斑有優質奶嘛斑斑有好乳嘛"},{"start":17066.974,"end":17088.278,"text":"好不好 是什麼時候會有新的措施出來我想我們分兩個階段第一個階段就是在這一學期本身我們已經對這個學期還是一樣照走那什麼時候會有新的措施我想一個很重要的原則就是說我們推的如果推的新的政策絕對不會影響到增加學校的負擔這個是一個非常重要的"},{"start":17088.658,"end":17090.34,"text":"那這個政策主導到底是教育部還是農業部?"},{"start":17112.202,"end":17140.843,"text":"我想是一起努力的啦一起努力還是會有因為兩個和尚是挑水河你知道嗎我知道所以不管怎麼樣我的意思是說到底現在這個亂象已經造成了那接下來是由教育部主導找農業部來開會還是農業部主導找教育部來開會我想我剛才說的兩個部會一起合作但是農業部一定會負更大的責任針對整個供應量做有系統的確保這個部分才會接下來就是由"},{"start":17141.784,"end":17142.685,"text":"行政部門應該要尊重立法部門"},{"start":17164.904,"end":17189.806,"text":"是行政部門應該要去了解掌握立法部門到底提出這樣的一個政策有什麼樣的一個前因後果那尤其是我記得上個會期本席是黨團的三長之一我們在朝野協商的時候我也一直說啊我沒有反對你的什麼3加3的這些相關的政策但是重點是農糧收購跟這3加7是它不衝突啊"},{"start":17190.487,"end":17212.577,"text":"有一些政策來講我沒有說要你只能選A不能選B只能選B不能選A而是怎麼樣能夠大規模做你一方面你可以精進你一方面你可以改良一方面你可以鼓勵農民朋友他們持續但另外一方面反映物價的一個部分那還有我必須要強調您知道在農糧提高價格收購的這一個提案裡面有哪個黨團反對嗎"},{"start":17216.721,"end":17244.068,"text":"在組決議的時候沒有沒有黨團反對嘛 對不對那就代表是說這是立法院113席立法委員共同的一個組決議啊我現在聽到有一些執政黨的朋友開始跟你在那邊一搭一唱好像講的好像講的是說欸對不能提高收購那如果說不能提高收購這個組決議的話那7月16號沒有任何人有異議這是在打假球啊"},{"start":17246.064,"end":17255.032,"text":"委員長你剛剛已經講了嘛7月16號我們上個會期的最後一天所值那個組決議處理的時候我們來看一下會議記錄主席說報告院會現在國民黨的附帶決議有沒有異議"},{"start":17261.837,"end":17289.727,"text":"沒有人有異議啊民進黨沒有半個人有異議啊當天的現況是所有黨團都甲級動員113席立法委員全都坐在座位上民進黨沒有任何人有異議照案通過臺灣民眾黨的附帶決議請問院會有無異議沒有異議所以換言之連民進黨的委員他們也不敢反對或者說他們也支持農糧收購要提高價格啊那現在"},{"start":17291.072,"end":17304.653,"text":"你會不會覺得有點像被放生的感覺民進黨的委員他那個時候不敢有異議然後現在要嘛就跟你一戴一上要嘛就他乾脆不來也不去支持你現在不編列農糧收購的價格的部分"},{"start":17306.858,"end":17332.186,"text":"我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情就是我們在考慮公糧提高價格我並沒有說公糧價格以後都不調了只是說不能現在調不能把虧底做給國民黨團民眾黨團絕對不是我從來沒有這種想法我也希望你不要有這個想法我的想法就是說我在這一個政策推動之下會不會造成我們現在原來的政策有所"},{"start":17333.306,"end":17335.967,"text":"其實抵銷不抵銷這個是政策工具的調整我已經預期你會這樣講了但是我們現在看的是方方面面這也是你是身為一個農業部部長你應該要看到的"},{"start":17357.179,"end":17357.199,"text":"好"},{"start":17386.348,"end":17396.975,"text":"最後我想你是鐵板一塊部長抱歉我最後一分鐘稍微已經站起來我只是提一下這個是一個新的展覽你也知道我長期都關心動物保護的議題"},{"start":17399.106,"end":17417.159,"text":"這個展覽呢它其實在其他國家已經有十幾年了不過呢也有很多的獸醫師會認為是說這其實對於魚類的健康是不利就是說因為它你看起來它很漂亮沒有錯我也覺得說一看畫面很漂亮但是它在裡面是有很多的光線很多的玻璃那其實"},{"start":17418.44,"end":17444.414,"text":"還有一些是閃光那強光跟閃光其實對魚是不利的再者藍色紫色的顏色對魚是刺激的那現在這個展覽好像是已經有經過相關的許可了那我們也有去查相關的一個法令規定就是說動物展演的部分其實要嘛就受地方政府的一個許可要嘛就是中央政府的公告免許可"},{"start":17446.038,"end":17446.518,"text":"臺北市政府"},{"start":17461.445,"end":17463.187,"text":"因為本席過去到現在對於動物展演的部分特別希望能夠加強我們的相關法律"},{"start":17488.328,"end":17496.613,"text":"所以後續我也會再跟我們農業部再來請教未來有沒有在法令上改進的空間我們一起來努力好不好謝謝部長剛剛講的斑斑有牛奶這些問題本席建議的這個牛奶卷就可以解決所有的問題請你趕快的研議好 謝謝接下來請麥義珍委員質詢"},{"start":17523.479,"end":17526.54,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請陳部長委員好部長好 大家都關心這一題我們農業天然災害救助辦法同一個產業就是一年可能申請一次但是我們每年颱風災害都是好幾次"},{"start":17552.968,"end":17557.37,"text":"所以剛才也聽很多的委員去詢問所以我們的部長也有說要修正要研議所以現在我們的災害已經達到6億新台幣6億"},{"start":17568.235,"end":17568.475,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":17584.969,"end":17585.189,"text":"請教一下"},{"start":17602.213,"end":17614.249,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是我們農業天然災害不會因為他的身份跟他的族群而有差別對沒有身份族群但是因為全部都中文但是做農的因為從事農業他絕對不是"},{"start":17617.453,"end":17636.073,"text":"自己一個人做農業沒有跟其他的左右鄰居做互動所以相對的我們在天然栽培公告的時候不是只公告一小區一定是一個鄉鎮為單位去公告的時候那相對的這些公告的時候其實他如果中一個作物其他的鄰居應該可以做協助啦"},{"start":17636.773,"end":17639.757,"text":"這個鄰居協助是你說的嗎還是說真的是鄰居都有幫忙協助你知道說怎麼樣去協助嗎我們希望說我們的農業很多都是我們現在高齡的我們的"},{"start":17652.35,"end":17659.034,"text":"的長輩去做或者是我們的新住民有去做所以這個部分我們是不是我們農業部這邊有個團隊是去協助不只是在網路宣傳或者在我們的公所去宣傳這樣的話達不到這個效果我的意思是這樣子所以要希望有一個團隊但是你講的都是別人幫忙不是你的團隊親自幫忙"},{"start":17679.424,"end":17697.216,"text":"我想這個在整個的一個天然災害公告了以後所有的啟動都是縣市政府跟他的公所的部分那您剛才所提到的就是說當新住民不認識中文字的時候那相對的希望有一個輔導的一個系統那我個人認為就是"},{"start":17698.257,"end":17703.879,"text":"這個不是你解決的方式啦因為左右鄰居大家都會有人會協助如果他真的是有需要但是他有需要他也找不到左右鄰居去協助的時候但是你講的是別人協助我要的是你如何去協助"},{"start":17726.548,"end":17726.568,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":17751.856,"end":17771.966,"text":"請你協助我們的農民不管是新住民還是我們的農民是不是有這樣的去協助因為那個對象我們不知道他在哪邊所以最好的方法最有效的方法就是第一個就是鄰居來協助第二個就是公所那邊他可以去問公所那公所我相信公所一定會很樂意來協助的"},{"start":17774.386,"end":17795.25,"text":"我們知道這是公所會去協助但是說我們這邊完全沒有一套說協助因為政府有這樣的預算但是我們要如何去協助公所他們有沒有主動去協助還是說你就是說我們的鄰居去協助我們公所去協助是你說的算還是說他們真的有這樣做第二個就是說我們的保險我們希望說我們"},{"start":17803.031,"end":17807.853,"text":"農民也除了申請災害的補助還有我們的保險也要有完善讓大家覺得說這個保險你要去剛才我們的其他委員也有詢問你說要如何去修改對我們農民最有幫助嘛 對不對但是連現在你們在推這個保險的時候"},{"start":17827.099,"end":17834.001,"text":"你們都沒有去說哪一個對農民有幫助嗎等大家要提出來的時候你們才覺得要去修改連我們農業部這邊都不清楚了你怎麼讓我們這些農民他覺得買這個保險對他有幫助的最清楚的所以我們要的是你"},{"start":17847.145,"end":17858.114,"text":"一定要去說事先要瞭解也要知道我們的農民的需求不是透過各個委員來找出你的問題你來去改善這樣子的話就申請補助也申請不到保險也不完整這樣對我們的農民的保障在哪裡這個就是你的責任希望"},{"start":17868.523,"end":17890.939,"text":"我們的農業部在一週內給我完善的策略還有如何對我們的農民更有保障保險的部分也是以上報告 謝謝我跟委員報告一個禮拜可能可不可以大概一個月因為我們的農業保險是要去做整體的檢討我不會去要強調說要把17%拉的多高我希望每一張保單"},{"start":17892.04,"end":17902.206,"text":"重新檢討以後會讓更多的農民來保這才是我們的目的而不是純粹只是追求那個覆蓋率的部分因為覆蓋率對我們沒有意義所以這個部分可能一個禮拜沒有辦法做到對保險就是要有幫助才要去保那是說沒有幫助就大家不願意保"},{"start":17912.512,"end":17912.532,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":17941.896,"end":17942.838,"text":"請徐富奎委員質詢請陳部長"},{"start":17964.52,"end":17982.196,"text":"部長辛苦了首先也要感謝部長我們這次山陀爾風災第一事件部長這個院長跟部長又到屏東來關心我們整個這個受損的狀況那也給予很多的這個第一線的一個協助不過在這邊還是有幾個問題要請部長來幫忙我想部長這個山陀爾颱風之後我們有一些養豬的"},{"start":17990.503,"end":17991.784,"text":"對,我跟委員報告,這個部分我們已經準備開了,就是說針對這個"},{"start":18014.933,"end":18016.254,"text":"部長什麼時候可以來公告?"},{"start":18056.982,"end":18072.469,"text":"平東的部分已經公告了嘛是不是那畜牧的部分可能會先看個案是什麼樣的情況再去處理他不用公告的方式去處理好因為這個平東也是有很多的養豬戶大家有沒有在等這個消息"},{"start":18074.1,"end":18100.869,"text":"另外針對剛剛也有很多的委員甚至上次部長到屏東我們很多的農民第一次就是直接反映的這個所謂的這個同歷年一次救助這個問題老闆娘這真的要再幫你拜託我們那7月份的這個楷米重創一次好不容易重新再把這個果樹再種下去現在山坨也還迷迷茫茫今天可以救助一百年這叫農民是在欲哭無淚"},{"start":18102.193,"end":18102.373,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18119.309,"end":18140.102,"text":"有時候你的災害太接近了跟差了好幾個月它的樣貸可能都不一樣甚至於還有跨年的部分所以可能還要再針對一些細項不過代言著我們會從農民的角度去思考當他本身如果受到災害以後"},{"start":18140.982,"end":18169.085,"text":"在經過一段時間的時候,特別是在開花期以後的這些時間,對產業有影響的話,我們會再開第二次的天然災救助給他們。大原則是這樣子,但是不同的反向。因為針對我們屏東的玉荷包也是一個很有名的農作物,但是這個玉荷包剩了差不多五年,才可以收成。如果一次受到颱風之後,有可能這五、六年都沒辦法收成,那針對這樣子的一個作物,有沒有辦法來做怎麼樣一個"},{"start":18170.699,"end":18196.692,"text":"長久性的一個補救的一個措施我們可能沒有辦法我們因為我們在天然災害救助大概是以一年的生產成本的百分之二的他是屬於救助的救助的精神那如果說損壞到他要變成必須重重變成五年才能才能收穫的這個部分我覺得現在我沒辦法回答您這個會長會怎麼做不過我想我們這是另外一個產業輔導"},{"start":18197.873,"end":18209.619,"text":"不能用直接用救助的方式去處理那部長就請用產業輔導的方式看一下怎麼去處理因為這個也是一個很多人都在重視那最後主席再借我一點時間就針對嬰兒番這個移儲的一個嚴重的問題"},{"start":18213.601,"end":18240.575,"text":"我想部長這個尤其恆春半島因為我們有涉及到所謂的一個林業署也有國產署甚至肯管處的一個土地管轄的一個問題我知道你們有努力在做但是問題針對其他的部會我們沒有一個統合的機制造成你如果這邊移除之後另外的銀河灣有可能又重新種子飄過去就生起來了所以這個生生不息造成一個生態的危害"},{"start":18241.864,"end":18260.103,"text":"本席是認為我們應該要組成一個國家來檢視這個、處理這個問題。部長的意見?委員報告就是我們在銀河灣在處理的時候其實我們有一個團隊包括其他的部會都有一個集中的那也跟委員報告就是說本來銀河灣大概在恆春地區大概5400多公頃"},{"start":18261.664,"end":18279.739,"text":"然後到了去年我們現在剩下大概1000多公頃要移除啦那1000多公頃裡面國有林大概是100多我想我們會處理那私有林的部分就是會跟廠商這邊看要怎麼樣去處理所以我們一定會組成一個跨部會的團隊一起來努力啦"},{"start":18281.46,"end":18301.022,"text":"我還是提醒就是說因為我們現在的策略是把它移除之後種苗嘛,種樹好多種嘛有另外一個說法,他們認為你如果砍完之後它的毒素增加反而不利於原本你們種的樹苗的生長所以他們認為是用自然演化的一個方式來取代,這也是另外一個"},{"start":18302.223,"end":18327.215,"text":"對,我想不同的意見我們都會去經過專家討論,包括你如果炒不好看它也會發出來嘛,類似這個,我想我們會,我們也聽到很多不同的意見啦,那我想林務署這邊會跟專家去討論一個最有效的方法,能夠讓它不會砍了以後又增加更多的這個小苗,這個部分我們謝謝委員的提醒,我們會來處理。對,我們的目標還是希望趕快移除,讓我們原本的生態能夠恢復啦,好謝謝。"},{"start":18336.232,"end":18337.154,"text":"請黃建斌委員質詢有請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":18355.765,"end":18373.147,"text":"委員 部長我們今天討論的是調整公糧的這個議題那在談論這個議題之前本席還是繼續延續上我們之前的這個山頭颱風造成農損的問題那這次山頭颱風其實它不僅僅是在南韋地區造成的這個傷害"},{"start":18373.787,"end":18398.248,"text":"因為它連日的豪大雨對我們這個池上關山地區的稻米造成極大傷害我們依據關山政工所進行農損調查的部分看到我們部分農田它剛剛結碎稻米剛結碎就發生這個稻埔泡水的情況可能會影響部分二期稻作的收成那出戶稻埔的這個田區至少將近在兩成左右那依據我們農業部這個稻米保險的規範那邊均"},{"start":18400.169,"end":18415.45,"text":"若產量減損在單一鄉鎮有兩成以上的話,就會啟動我們的保險機制,這樣立法會是一公頃萬倍空,對不對?那但是經過現在政府初步的統計,可能離這個立法的標準還有一點點的差距,那受災災民他可能沒有辦法申請立法。"},{"start":18416.701,"end":18440.561,"text":"部長,中農一年的課真兩期,官真池上是臺東有機稻作的種植區,它的工作成本本來就遠遠高於西部慣行農法的區域,這對農民稻農的損害極大。部長您是農業的大家長,也請您苦農民所苦,放寬規範,讓我們稻農可以獲得利培金來度過這次難關。"},{"start":18443.763,"end":18445.484,"text":"謝謝部長正面的回應喔部長"},{"start":18475.121,"end":18497.265,"text":"我們這是客廳吃飯本來閒話就乾口我想這次會提到公糧調漲這件事情其實也是希望讓農民能夠增加他的收益我想這件事情大家都是支持因為他們這麼辛苦我們可以給他照顧我相信大家都支持那當然在過程裡面也聽到部長跟其他委員提到有許多問題會衍生那這邊本是要跟部長來討論就是說我們台東這次供應的問題"},{"start":18500.486,"end":18501.387,"text":"臺東花東地區是臺灣最大的有機有膳到作耕作區"},{"start":18517.309,"end":18534.936,"text":"臺灣的米好價是因為它品質好相對它的成本也比較高那我們的米廠其實都是以質計價然後嚴格分級一斤米、二斤米、三斤米這樣所以價格比較高所以高公糧會比較小小看就是低於我們西部的這些稻農"},{"start":18535.876,"end":18538.057,"text":"我給委員報告就是說其實臺東就是一個很好的例子就是說因為他大部分都不繳公糧"},{"start":18564.569,"end":18587.407,"text":"但是我們怎麼樣讓有機有膳的這些稻米能夠繼續的去精進所以後面的就是牽扯到後面的輔導措施啦對啦輔導措施這個措施要出來對這個部分我想我們會去研究因為我們都是希望站在農民這一邊但是我們的情況有稍許不同那這部分要請部裡面這邊來多花心思想一下未來怎麼補助的東部的地區特別是"},{"start":18588.288,"end":18590.11,"text":"謝謝部長的正面回應。接下來我要講第二個台中的農產,第一個獨立美衣瓦第一就是奢侈"},{"start":18613.223,"end":18636.753,"text":"全世界98個社區在台灣全台灣98個社區在台灣那台東因為這個濾金養活很多的家庭那台東縣政府其實也花很多的經費在做行銷這一塊也花很多心思那不過其實現在目前台灣的私家出口還是主要以中國大陸為主那我們其實也提過是不是要分散投資不要把雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡面開發新的市場提升本身的"},{"start":18637.433,"end":18658.116,"text":"品質跟加工這一塊都是未來要因應整個因兩岸政策不穩定影響的這個造成果農影響的這個生計的問題吧,對吧?這我們之前討論過嘛,那我們過去這幾年花了大概將近5億在農產的施加加工上,但目前還沒有看到比較有效的成果"},{"start":18658.777,"end":18685.403,"text":"那我們今後如何讓我們加工去化過多的產量,讓達到我們鮮果限流市場的功效,農業部必須來思考這個問題。因為當我們的鮮果的數量如果在限流情況之下,我們可以有效的維持啊。那未來如果國外的市場受到一些什麼政治因素,種種因素有影響的時候,我們不至於導致我們鮮果過量,然後價格崩盤嘛,對吧?"},{"start":18686.343,"end":18715.434,"text":"瞭解我跟委員報告齁就是鳳梨釋迦是一個比較特殊的這些品項那第一個就是它生性的部分在其他的國家過往都沒有銷售的紀錄那我們在檢疫的部分我們必須因為鮮果的部分要經過市場進入的檢疫的談判但是加工的部分冷凍的部分就可以所以過去幾年特別是這一兩年之內我們針對冷凍加工包括現在我們也有一些我們的加工廠變成果泥那就是"},{"start":18716.174,"end":18733.043,"text":"時間的關係,會後可以把你們相關的措施跟本辦公室來報告最後我再借用一點點時間,剛剛許副委員提到關於殷樂歡的問題,其實台東也有除此之外,台東還有面臨另外一個問題,就是施走安修木"},{"start":18733.723,"end":18757.149,"text":"他比英文更加的頑強他的侵略性跟他的生命之強悍很難去跟足這個部分也希望農業部能夠來整合包括國產署或是領務局或是社會主要局看怎麼樣來解決這個外來物種侵襲的問題那這部分也請部長這邊跟會裡面部裡面來討論跟本席分工事這邊來報告"},{"start":18758.254,"end":18759.995,"text":"月言之委員不在,請徐宇珍委員質詢。"},{"start":18791.772,"end":18792.074,"text":"農業部陳副部長"},{"start":18805.037,"end":18819.913,"text":"今天我是針對就是農業部針對立法院決議的公糧收購的這個提高價格的這個報告要來替這個農民請命因為其實目前我想聽下來是目前農業部並沒有要編列這個預算的計畫嗎是嗎"},{"start":18824.329,"end":18848.067,"text":"對我想公糧我的意思是說我不是說以後都不調整公糧但是以現在最好的情況因為我在調整公糧的時候我必須衡量我現在的政策會不會造成現在的政策的衝突所以我們發現說我們現在的4選3大區輪座如果搭配一級二轉3加3會更支持我們的產地價格如果直接貿然的再提高的話"},{"start":18849.228,"end":18873.07,"text":"會有矛盾的現象所以我們今年度我們先不編但是後續我們會針對我們的推動的成效再來檢討部長不過所以您的意思是也沒有反對這個公糧收購但是今年暫時不編要看滾動的計畫不過以這個部分來說其實農民會覺得很受傷因為他們覺得說公糧收購對他們是最直接的一個"},{"start":18874.051,"end":18874.391,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18893.129,"end":18893.149,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":18913.616,"end":18940.129,"text":"新資也要調漲第二年還有勞工的基本工資跟時薪也都提高那既然政府說希望要全民來共享經濟建設的成果那這個部分好像農民都沒有被照顧到也會讓農民覺得是二等公民我想不會的我想政府上面包括特別是農業部照顧我們農民是我們的責任也是我們的使命那以剛才講的就是說公糧提高的話事實上只有部分的農民是受益的特別是剛才"},{"start":18941.625,"end":18965.055,"text":"東部的地區你如果去東部的話大部的農民都反對其實部長既然是雖然有部分的農民所以但代表這些部分農民就是還需要幫助所以我們才有這個公糧收購的這樣的一個政策那尤其是我看到你們報告裡面寫說公糧價格的收購因為13年因為要如果造成提高公糧價格的話會造成成本的提高嗎不是面積的提高"},{"start":18967.017,"end":18985.435,"text":"還有就是提高生產成本應該是在你們的第4頁第6頁第4點會提高生產成本有提到這點不過現在跟我們理解的其實相反我們為什麼會提這個要提高公糧收購的價格就是因為過去13年沒有調漲成本還是一直在提高他們的各張市場還是一直提高"},{"start":18985.775,"end":19012.045,"text":"所以我們才會提出要提高公糧收購的這個價格所以這樣的說法其實是矛盾的而且讓農民沒辦法接受那既然部長覺得說提高公糧收購的價格現在沒有辦法去執行那是不是有可能就是農民比如說我們現在是不是可以釋出一些農地來去種電讓我們的農民的這個價格因為種電大概可以每公頃大概可以收租40萬"},{"start":19013.565,"end":19014.565,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們現在開放的是漁電工生"},{"start":19029.062,"end":19053.588,"text":"那農電共生的部分我們並沒有開那最主要是說農電共生本身因為露天作物它需要的陽光的強度它都必須要去考慮那以現在來講我們也啟動了我們的所有的試驗單位針對農電共生之下的一些作物的影響部長 拋出這樣的議題只是要讓就是部長對 部長了解說說農民真的很辛苦"},{"start":19053.888,"end":19064.577,"text":"我了解我可能有一個是不利耕種的地我什麼都不用做我一公頃就可以補助40萬辛苦工作的農民我們現在只不過要提高公糧收購價格卻不行所以說我只是要拋出這樣的議題讓農業部來去正視這個問題那當然了我在這邊也是提出一個建議讓部長"},{"start":19072.023,"end":19096.558,"text":"思考看看是否可行就是說我們也考量到產業的一個長久發展跟農業的預算有限那是不是可以因為你這邊有提到這個123的政策大概3年內會提高到股市場價格3元你預估是這樣子的一個成效那我們假設這個成效是真的能夠達到的話那是不是有可能我們公糧收購先提高2元"},{"start":19097.719,"end":19114.281,"text":"然後給你們3年的時間去完成這個123的政策那如果可以提高3元剛好就是5元是不是有可能來做這樣子的研究很實際的說明就是現在的5元跟我們現在的其他的政策是會互相"},{"start":19115.464,"end":19115.624,"text":"進行報告．"},{"start":19131.451,"end":19131.471,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":19150.555,"end":19173.657,"text":"部長一定跟我們一樣都是很希望照顧農民為農民來去爭取最大的權益那是不是所有可能能夠照顧農民的方案我們是不是都不要放棄能夠用這樣的一個方式那因為既然這是立法院的決議我們也希望能夠這個農業部能夠尊重我們這個立法委員的這樣子的一個決議那用什麼樣的方式來去達到讓農民感受到農業部的照顧也感受到全民對農民的這個照顧這樣可以嗎"},{"start":19176.139,"end":19176.399,"text":"請劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":19208.114,"end":19208.895,"text":"農業部114年度總預算案"},{"start":19229.074,"end":19254.135,"text":"總總額含所有基金是多少經費?那113年的總預算案又是多少?112年又是多少?請部長簡單說明我講我們114年編列的是1692萬含所有基金嗎?基金是747億但是有一部分的公務是撥補的部分所以加起來可動資的大概是2000多2000零多少億嗎?"},{"start":19255.496,"end":19260.418,"text":"2034億2034億嘛 是這是預算案嘛對不對 是那113年的預算案是多少113年的預算是兩千我看兩千一千九百一千五百五十億"},{"start":19272.826,"end":19289.971,"text":"對1951億是預算案還是預算多少法定預算是2089億2089億對所以現在是要跟委員會報告是說因為114年還沒有審查嘛對不對是所以他是預算案那有可能審查之後會低於113年度是不是這樣"},{"start":19290.831,"end":19317.086,"text":"有可能因為計畫有一部分是新增的有一部分是那你既然是新增就是會增加預算出來那為什麼還會低於113年度但是相對有些預算是期程結束了結束了以後有一些新增的我要表達就是說以你當了這個部長之後照理講應該會有一些對農民有幫助對農業有所支持的新增項目那基本上是應該增加"},{"start":19317.686,"end":19344.014,"text":"那至於應該有的到一個期限裡面需要去減少的或是不再編入的這我沒有意見但整體來講農委會變成農業部之後就是一個部就是一個大部就是台灣宣示對台灣的農業對台灣的農民的支持在組織架構的提升裡面應該從預算面會看到有更多支持農業跟支持農民的相關的積極作為才對嘛所以照理講你14年不應該低於13啊"},{"start":19346.202,"end":19358.547,"text":"我們整個都不應該低於這樣我們公務有增加83億左右公務有增加的部分那因為基金到時候是看各基金的用途所以剛才講的就是說114年大概2034億因為時間有限我沒有辦法跟部長詢問細節不然我就隨便叫一個署起來問你114年對照1134是怎樣的預算知道嗎?署長知道嗎?"},{"start":19371.943,"end":19380.808,"text":"那個公共預算多大概7億就是增加那個我現在講總統統就好了你農糧署114年度的總預算是多少錢?多少經費?總預算你自己數多少錢你不知道你就吃爛了好那113的預算案是多少?"},{"start":19394.474,"end":19420.835,"text":"你還沒有當署長你不清楚你馬上對照一下好不好如果你減少的減少什麼部分給委員會相關的資料給我們做參考嘛好不好我為什麼要提到這個事情啦我還特別強調變成農業部之後那整個格局對農業對農民的照顧絕對要跟以前不一樣嘛部長還沒有回答到1喔甚至還1我都還沒有問啦我是希望你們細看一下做相關的一些盤查跟做比對啦那第二件事情"},{"start":19421.335,"end":19450.38,"text":"我可以特別跟部長來討論這個天然災害救助項目的金額這個部分我之前也有新聞到貴部去然後私底下我也跟部長反映有很多的項目基本上是有蠻大的一些落差啦齁豬瓦會災害的豬瓦每一公頃4千蜂箱全會一個補助650蚂蜜一千塊鹵羊一隻兩千啦齁然後白色的肉雞一隻二十這個多久沒有調整了這一件事情"},{"start":19450.851,"end":19476.457,"text":"那第二張我們這幾年來有很多次的去做相關的這些因應跟調整有確實都有這是我就不再贅述齁從106民進黨在住執政的時候106 109 110 11一直到112都有做相關調整而且我們的天然災救助辦法裡面有特別強調每年檢討一次的那你的每年檢討一次是年中年初年尾也不曉得然後再來你再看這一張"},{"start":19478.066,"end":19486.409,"text":"分野化溫格在106年的時候補助的額度是11萬5千,113年的時候5月20條了,變成11萬8千給三千塊一公頃。部長再看一下布拉伊為什麼20萬馬上跳到42萬一公頃。"},{"start":19496.983,"end":19504.851,"text":"上面,等一下,上面的10班、9班麻痺就對了,38萬一公頃,來到100均三里算是變40幾萬,加4萬。麻痺就對了36萬,變40萬,加4萬。現在獨獨不拉比,20萬一公頃,變做40幾萬。為什麼分月月11萬5,讓你們調料變11萬8?"},{"start":19519.653,"end":19527.935,"text":"有符合農民的整個、漁民的整個這樣的成本然後配合這整個物價的這樣的評估去做相關調整嗎?"},{"start":19530.43,"end":19554.408,"text":"我要向委員報告就是針對現在目前的不管是農林漁畜的這些產品我已經要求他們在11月底之前要重新去做檢討包括成本的調查因為你成本如果沒有調查在紙上作業用這樣處理就有可能發生到委員剛才提到的有一些條都非常大有些東西幾乎沒什麼條所以我希望他們是根據真正的生產成本"},{"start":19555.229,"end":19567.685,"text":"11月底之前我們會去調整我們明年1月的話就會去公告重新去公告新的這個制度以後我們會把這個法納入就是說每年的1月間會公告年度的這個天然災害救助的這個標準"},{"start":19569.308,"end":19585.482,"text":"對,項目很多,我只是用幾項給部長做參考嘛,對不對?啊這照理講,怎麼會有double的這樣一個成長?啊怎麼會有不到1%的成長?部長你在看這一個,農作物的育苗作業啦齁,全島2500,然後全島變3000,這是106年對照103年。屋頂摧毀,一坪550,現在變成增加50塊,600。"},{"start":19593.664,"end":19612.382,"text":"這個合乎現狀嗎?還有很多時間的關係我沒辦法一一細究請部長是不是要求重新盤整重新比照重新看現在的狀態應該如何補助才讓農民的損失真的是政府的德政可以減少他們這樣的一個受損"},{"start":19613.183,"end":19616.164,"text":"最後我再請教部長一些事情,謝謝主席齁剛剛有委員特別提到灌區內跟灌區外我請教一下全國80萬公頃的"},{"start":19639.582,"end":19639.822,"text":"我們增加多少預算?"},{"start":19677.113,"end":19691.808,"text":"我要提醒部長喔這個如果完全都沒有增加你們是交代不過去這個完全不增加然後我們未來你要去推國土計畫你就沒有辦法推阿"},{"start":19693.098,"end":19694.02,"text":"部長你會不會越來越辛苦"},{"start":19709.631,"end":19735.429,"text":"農我再度提醒了好不好這個預算真的不能減行政院有問題你要讓我們知道我們要來處理我跟委員報告就是在新增的農水路的部分大概光整個的資産防洪跟農水路的部分大概就增加了50億跟50億大概有100億的額度那裡面因為有灌區內有灌區外還有一些那個那個籌劃區裡面的東西那我想我會謝謝委員的提醒我會針對"},{"start":19736.249,"end":19762.699,"text":"後面的該要去執行的經費到位以後還有實際指示的一個進度好 最後那個農機展農機展從蘇志文前縣長整個催生一直到現在辦了18年農糧署扮演什麼角色這個可不可以請農長署署長來說明我們給予那個活動的補助好 那所有我們叫做指導單位對不對對"},{"start":19765.259,"end":19777.822,"text":"去年辦個農機展燒了20多台汽車今年會不會再發生指導單位要不要見到監督職者整個場地要不要去事先了解"},{"start":19780.041,"end":19798.343,"text":"我跟委員報告就是過往也許我們在補助的時候只是提供經費而已但是實際上的規劃沒有參與協助但是我覺得這是也是不對的啦就是說當你經費下去就是希望活動做得好那相對的場地的規劃也要有一個完善的一個特別是在安全上面的一個規劃"},{"start":19799.204,"end":19827.676,"text":"那之前我想有很多地方辦大型活動都會去參與規劃那我這邊後續也要求農政署其實在規劃的時候不能只出錢啊也要實際的去協助對部長我只是提醒任何一筆從農業部補助到地方政府的只要錢下去有補助的農業部都有一定的責任是都有一定的責任是那個環部看板後面絕對會寫指導單位寫補助單位但是有的很多補助下去也都沒有看到你們任何單位是是要卸責嗎"},{"start":19829.642,"end":19848.956,"text":"請部長詳查是太多的案例謝謝謝謝主席請羅明財羅明財羅明財委員不在請王玉敏王玉敏王玉敏委員不在請武力華委員諮詢謝謝主席有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":19868.291,"end":19888.163,"text":"前天我看到一則有關公糧的新聞我相信應該您也知道就是有農會的理事長呢他利用人頭農民去申報公糧然後去用較低的成本買這個稻穀充當公糧繳納之後賺取那個價差那為什麼"},{"start":19891.505,"end":19919.976,"text":"其實理由很簡單嘛殺頭生意有人做所以這個部分農民他繳交公糧的意願高就是因為我們公糧的價格比較好也引發我們的政府大概平均這些年每一年將近120億去辦理公糧收購那當然我們不是去反對這樣的事但是我們會這樣子做是因為他的本"},{"start":19920.476,"end":19936.112,"text":"原頭是國內的稻米供過於求所以我在這個地方其實是要救教一個問題請部長您看一下齁我相信您都念得出這些稻作的名稱齁小米油盲"},{"start":19937.173,"end":19962.862,"text":"紅藜 樹豆那這一些呢在我們原住民來講都是我們的主食你可以看得到 豐收然後納入糧倉供給一年的所需可是我現在要問的就是你的公糧不是我的公糧欸我要請教一下部長為什麼水稻要叫公糧原住民的這些主食要叫雜糧"},{"start":19965.387,"end":19981.878,"text":"委員報告那個公糧的公的意思就是說由公部門去收購的糧的稻米叫做公糧那其實在學名上面沒有所謂的公糧這個字但是雜糧是通指其他的這些暗做的那我就是要我就是要講"},{"start":19983.539,"end":20010.436,"text":"你看看我們原住民齁你看生番熟番連吃的東西也有歧視矮化的意思但是我不是說因為這是歷史的成因歷史的成阿那山地平地化的過程中我們除了喪失領土除了喪失生活方式喪失文化語言你看連我們吃的東西都也可以喪失欸這很了不起欸"},{"start":20012.718,"end":20037.475,"text":"我請部長您看一下當然我這個圖做得不好我要講的是說你看我們主要在輔導稻作的時候當然很漂亮可是台灣是一個多元文化而且我們講究生物多樣性如果這樣的一個農田有紅藜 有樹稻 有小米 有等等等"},{"start":20038.854,"end":20038.874,"text":"委員長"},{"start":20056.84,"end":20083.255,"text":"我想我們對原住民的輔導其實有不同的面向從技術端就是將原住民原來的技術做一些改良而已就是依照他的地景跟他的文化那這個部分我們在所謂的改良場有一個團隊我們就是原力團隊那那個原力團隊就是針對原住民部落的在地的這些作物去處理那第二個部分就是後端的市場的媒合那是更重要的"},{"start":20083.615,"end":20083.795,"text":"現在做得好嗎?"},{"start":20104.422,"end":20114.805,"text":"我想現在慢慢的特別是在針對有一些原住民剝落包括小米那我跟部長說齁其實我要講的是說我們這種是點滴式的輔導阿你應該清楚我在講什麼是我了解原米粿也好農糧署也好水保署也好對有在協助但是點滴式的輔導"},{"start":20127.318,"end":20149.906,"text":"他不是長期 不是永續 不是全盤所以我在這邊其實是要講另外一個問題因為你看這個是東埔那個地方在做小米的富裕可是我們發現我們好多的小米在富裕的時候竟然是由美國的總原庫帶回來的這是蠻悲哀的一件事情"},{"start":20150.866,"end":20171.204,"text":"難道原住民族想要在自己的土地用自己的方式種自己的作物有那麼困難嗎我們現在花很多錢在附贈我們的語言但是我們有很多的東西需要附贈回來因為那個才是真正符合在替我們所需要的這些所以呢我們原民會"},{"start":20172.265,"end":20172.505,"text":"部長您的態度如何"},{"start":20192.699,"end":20193.279,"text":"政府現在已經結束原住民轉型正義委員會"},{"start":20222.839,"end":20251.404,"text":"因為總統說要讓所有的轉型正義要走入各部會去落實這個就是一個具體的轉型正義對不對我希望回到剛才的那個圖片我們的山林我們的田野它是生物多樣性的它是美麗多元的我們台灣配得這樣的風景好不好那我相信農業部部長您絕對有這樣的能力帶領大家可以嗎"},{"start":20252.504,"end":20252.524,"text":"陳婉嫻議員"},{"start":20272.046,"end":20288.77,"text":"當今發言的委員除了不在場外其餘都均已發言完畢我們詢答結束書面質詢跟未答覆的部分請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完畢大家辛苦了現在散會"},{"start":20304.424,"end":20310.176,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"date":"2024-10-17","影片長度":"03:56:01","end_time":"2024-10-17T12:26:00+08:00","type":"Full","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16179","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14161,"start_time":"2024-10-17T08:29:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d75bc8616f11b32879b5fa2f296a93534c04c64b87e30630a098414bdd00660525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會「過曝世代、手機成癮與校園學習」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會「過曝世代、手機成癮與校園學習」公聽會）","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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start":2596.175,"end":2599.178,"text":"專家學者發言以簽名先後順序為準現場發言與書面資料放在立法院公報上在場委員有意見發表請在10點前登記會在會議進行中依照登記順序穿插"},{"start":2615.492,"end":2617.734,"text":"有要發言的委員記得來主席台登記"},{"start":2632.537,"end":2647.816,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們各位委員還有我們各位家長團體我們老師團體還有學生代表各位學者專家各位先進大家好那麼今天本部應邀列席教育文化委員會所召開的過曝世代"},{"start":2648.937,"end":2649.317,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2668.672,"end":2685.482,"text":"對學習造成的負面影響使行動載具成為增進學習的工具本部持續辦理防範手機成癮相關的措施以引導學生提升自我管理的能力來增進學習的效率跟維護身心的健康"},{"start":2687.043,"end":2689.645,"text":"1.頒布高級中等以下學校校園行動載具使用原則"},{"start":2716.963,"end":2736.761,"text":"應與必要管理以確保學生在校園合理使用行動載具避免上課期間受到手機的干擾提升學習的注意力本部也在109年的8月5號函請各校依據前階載具使用原則來訂定校園行動載具使用管理規範其中"},{"start":2738.422,"end":2738.442,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2755.005,"end":2780.101,"text":"並避免班級個別管理使學生有所依循第二是落實防治及輔導支持本部在落實學校輔導工作透過各項活動增進教師處理網路成癮之輔導資能方面包括完善校園輔導及關懷體系從108年起持續跟亞洲大學網路成癮防治中心合作辦理工作法"},{"start":2780.521,"end":2780.541,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2802.657,"end":2802.677,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2829.39,"end":2857.883,"text":"運用科技進行自主學習能力那麼頒布中小學家長數位學習知能指引建立家長與陪伴為基礎瞭解數位學習相關政策及素養知能以減少學習分心以及網路沉迷的風險那麼第4是來辦理教師徵能研習及講師培訓那麼教師徵能課程納入數位素養的研習那麼以強化教師數位素養的知能"},{"start":2858.343,"end":2866.827,"text":"公聽會議第5會期教育及文化委員會 公聽會議第6會期教育及文化委員會 公聽會議第7會期教育及文化委員會 公聽會議第8會期教育及文化委員會 公聽會議第9會期教育及文化委員會 公聽會議第10會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":2885.337,"end":2910.715,"text":"第6是定期辦理資訊素養自我評量網路活動透過看影片回答問題的方式教導學生如何自我保護以及正確使用網路每年有超過23萬青獅生來參加並於親子休憩場所來辦理宣導活動讓家長和孩子共同提升對網路沉迷的認知每年約有1萬2千人次的青獅生來參加"},{"start":2911.876,"end":2919.201,"text":"第四大方向是來落實心理健康輔導的服務機制我們有針對大專院校的學生網路成癮輔導一學生輔導法第6條學校因四學生身心狀況及需求來提供發展性輔導介入性輔導及處理性輔導之三級輔導由專業輔導人員依學生需求及專業評估"},{"start":2936.673,"end":2949.597,"text":"提供介入性處遇、心理智商等協助必要時結合心理治療、精神醫療、家庭輔導等並轉介至社政、衛政等相關單位以幫助學生應對手機成癮帶來的心理問題最後"},{"start":2954.963,"end":2980.918,"text":"也要跟各位報告就是教育部將會持續與相關實施策略跟方法中融入健康數位習慣那麼正確使用行動載具的方法及行為習慣來培養學生良好的網路使用態度和習慣以增進學習正向的效益那麼我相信有關手機成癮這樣的一個議題呢不但各界非常關心其實每個人大概"},{"start":2981.698,"end":2981.838,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3006.971,"end":3018.028,"text":"來舉行這樣公聽會來聆聽各界的意見那麼在大家提出意見我們共同來尋求一個更好的方式那本部會來依循置地相關的法規跟政策謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":3021.544,"end":3021.684,"text":"理事長林碩傑"},{"start":3051.168,"end":3051.67,"text":"吳張梅請準備請來這"},{"start":3060.624,"end":3086.007,"text":"主席、兩位委員、次長、各位先進大家好那針對今天有關這個校園的手機成癮的問題其實這個校園裡面的基層老師對這個議題是蠻重視也蠻有意見的那接續剛剛主席所講的其實很多國家他們針對在校園手機裡面的管制已經有很多的做法"},{"start":3087.067,"end":3110.218,"text":"最近美國加州也接續佛羅里達州通過所謂的校園管制手機方案目的是要來幫助學生在學校能夠專注於學習專注於社交發展跟眼前的世界而不是專注於手機螢幕這個蠻重要的"},{"start":3111.238,"end":3134.945,"text":"事實上現在蠻嚴重的當然說現在世界上很多國家包括前面有講到法國、日本、南韓、英國、澳洲、荷蘭其實很多國家已經都有一些類似的做法甚至有國家他們是很早就已經開始施在效應裡面就是不讓手機出現各種管制的措施已經都有一些做法了"},{"start":3138.416,"end":3147.661,"text":"教育部發布高級通診以下學校、校園行動載具使用原則以及之前的校園攜帶行動電話使用規範原則基層老師給我們的回饋是這些原則"},{"start":3154.565,"end":3158.33,"text":"並不夠明確化,尤其是沒有強制力"},{"start":3169.886,"end":3196.552,"text":"學校在處理上也產生了極大的困擾即使不是高中、國中、國小我們也發現一些高中子有管理的學校跟沒有管理的學校都有我們想說這些原則對他們來講到底有沒有規範呢我們覺得打一個很大的問號全國教育產業中共認為說這個一定要管理因為學生的自治力還不夠成熟"},{"start":3198.278,"end":3225.027,"text":"眼前我們看到現在社會上很多成年人他們在已經上班階段進入社會在一些不少的公司他們也都有限制私人手機的不能使用的時間現在我們面對是校園未成年的小孩那這些小孩在未成年更何況這些成年人在出社會已經受到限制那小孩子在校園難道說也不應該做一些檢討嗎"},{"start":3227.209,"end":3243.565,"text":"今天我們要檢討的是說手機是否會影響學生的學習我們有收到國中老師的反應其實他有表示說其實在教學現場來看的話影響很大"},{"start":3244.676,"end":3244.696,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3262.062,"end":3279.705,"text":"除了影響自己在學校的學習情況、人際狀況、互動品質之外還有一個容易產生糾紛當然也影響了其他同學他們對這個東西的價值觀甚至間接影響家庭管教的方法"},{"start":3281.11,"end":3298.389,"text":"許多學生在上課會偷用手機還有一個就是所謂的智慧手錶所以今天如果說我們除了針對手機其實智慧手錶應該也要納入考量那下課時間呢手機可以看影片打手遊所以影響正課影響了下課那讓他們減少人際互動的時間"},{"start":3304.062,"end":3304.082,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3322.495,"end":3345.796,"text":"其實沒有使用手機的必要那家長讓他帶來使用最主要是要聯繫那你聯繫的話其實約定時間可以聯繫之外也可以使用校內的投幣室公共電話或是到各處市區借用電話來做一些緊急聯繫所以這個部分家長的顧慮我們覺得是也可以把它做一些排除"},{"start":3346.917,"end":3370.794,"text":"另外就是手機它有拍照跟多媒體營運娛樂效果可是它也為學校的性平事件還有個人隱私帶來很多的紛紛擾擾各位南韓它最近有發生所謂Deepfake就是身為技術合成影像的亂象"},{"start":3372.169,"end":3390.888,"text":"通訊軟體Telegram廣泛傳遞的結果造成很多受害者,包括學生、老師也都有受害今天如果說我們在校園裡面不管這些手機的話,接下來也可能會有很多學生或老師受害"},{"start":3392.049,"end":3408.477,"text":"也有老師跟我們反映說有學生在學校兩棟大樓的圍牆上面跳來跳去故意用手機拍攝他驚險的畫面然後上傳到IG的限動甚至還刻意寫下說學校亂不亂我們幾個說了算來博取網路的流量也有拍老師之後上網去做成梗圖在網路上流傳"},{"start":3418.237,"end":3431.494,"text":"各位我們終結就是還是希望說學生在校園不宜使用手機應該全面管制那尤其現在校規在學校對學生的約束力大減"},{"start":3433.598,"end":3455.077,"text":"所以應該由教育部源頭來進行課堂上的管控請教育部制定有效的手機使用規範讓學校更有依據、更有標準避免這次課程進度教室班級管理受到影響也讓各級學校的教育人員受到鼓舞教育部要硬起來"},{"start":3457.178,"end":3483.019,"text":"除了這樣之外我們也希望說能夠讓各校不要再各自為政做法不一樣現在很多家長已經把手機當保母讓嬰兒不吵不鬧其實看了讓很多擔心很多憂心所以我們此刻也希望說立法院的各委員能夠督促教育部要做教育部要有所作為讓學生遠離山西讓他們的學習表達能力各方面都能夠有一所改善"},{"start":3484.113,"end":3509.663,"text":"最後如果說這個案子有人反對的話我們期盼至少要做到分零管制謝謝謝謝林碩傑理事長他剛剛講到的那個拍照功能的部分我剛剛還沒有講的就是拜登政府創立那個兒少網路安全小組一開始的目的就是要減少網路上的未成年性影像那就是因為手機其實跟這個太方便了高度的關係"},{"start":3511.644,"end":3533.849,"text":"謝謝林理事長再來我們就請第二位登記的吳張梅他是全國教師會政策部副主任還有我們也介紹一下剛剛報導的張雲軒他是國立成功大學老年學研究所的副教授也是台灣網路成癮防治學會的理事"},{"start":3534.209,"end":3535.651,"text":"臺灣EDU教育協會 劉軒瑞同學吳副主任發言"},{"start":3549.163,"end":3574.735,"text":"下一位是宏孟凱立委請準備大家好今天請代表全國教師會來針對這個議題發表相關的看法首先我們知道說現在的世代我們稱為所謂的數位元住民所以他們會透過各式各樣的3C產品去做學習當然手機的學習對於我們來說其實很多正向的意義這是不可否認的但是他們也慢慢的成為了所謂的數位癮世代手機成癮、3C成癮"},{"start":3577.617,"end":3593.411,"text":"手機成癮對於身心的健康影響是非常的顯著的比如說就心理層面而言的話它可能造成學生的焦慮或是抑鬱然後還有會因為長期的使用手機變成說與人的接觸變少會造成了學生的孤獨感或是跟社交隔離的情況"},{"start":3594.252,"end":3611.759,"text":"在身體健康方面當然不可否認的視力的問題長期使用手機造成視力的影響也會甚至於造成的睡眠障礙甚至於也是因為這樣你長期的一個姿勢造成的頸椎問題甚至於那種肌肉痠痛的問題都是有的那在手機成癮方面對學習的影響有哪些呢"},{"start":3613.812,"end":3615.133,"text":"社交機能下降、人與人之間互動減少、分心、對手機的過度依賴"},{"start":3637.733,"end":3644.539,"text":"會造成學生自我控制的能力減弱因為已經變成一個習慣了當然也是因為這樣因為網路上大量的訊息會造成信息過載的情況大量的資訊大量資訊當中不乏不良的資訊會有假資訊就是錯誤的資訊在網路上到處流竄"},{"start":3658.211,"end":3660.372,"text":"網絡霸凌社群媒體太發達,學生會在網絡上發表各式各樣的言論,攻擊同學,造成網絡霸凌"},{"start":3680.1,"end":3683.282,"text":"現在很多學生在課堂上使用攝錄的功能就會有很多一些後續衍生出來的這種攝錄功能當然從正向而言當然是學習可是如果負向的話可能會變成一個霸凌的工具"},{"start":3698.178,"end":3723.523,"text":"網絡安全風險學生對於相關資訊素養的判讀不足會造成各自在網絡上外洩的情況學業與手機的使用失衡學生可能會花更多時間在手機的使用上而不是在學習上面在校園管理的實際面部分目前高中生的校園管理是更"},{"start":3724.71,"end":3725.27,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3751.986,"end":3752.026,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3766.903,"end":3785.343,"text":"首先,第一個是,如果要收手機,要家長同意,尤其是未成年的小孩,那家長不配合,因為小孩子會吵,他需要用手機。再來呢,替代品,這個我想是在現場很明顯,什麼叫替代品?A、B機,我把舊手機放上去,我新手機還是留在身上,然後呢,或是用手機殼,"},{"start":3787.705,"end":3796.873,"text":"或是手機樣品、行動電源各式各樣的就是這種情況都會就是說上游對車、下游對學生會想到各種方法還有就是說學生可能不交手機然後呢或是他上課偷偷使用也是因為這樣就造成什麼上課影響上課秩序你可能突然手機響了或是老師發現你在使用手機會影響上課秩序然後呢當老師去管的時候就會引發了時神衝突學生會辯解說不是我不是在幹嘛幹嘛就類似這樣子的情況"},{"start":3815.808,"end":3840.014,"text":"好,那當然老師們會覺得很困擾是什麼事情因為我們行政端可能沒有支持老師的相對作為那就變成說老師們會很擔心動輒得救無所適從那當然學生會產生炫富心理會比較說我現在是iPhone10裡有最新款的手機大家會開始去看大家的手機會借過來玩借過來使用甚至於我們曾經遇到過學生為了好奇然後把別人手機帶走帶回去看因為是最新的手機這樣子"},{"start":3841.394,"end":3841.414,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3857.591,"end":3857.671,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3877.662,"end":3877.862,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3901.994,"end":3908.92,"text":"一個難度在然後第五個管控技術問題是國外其實有用到很多所謂的一些監控軟體甚至於是說把網路隔絕的方式去處理這樣的問題但是這樣其實也是一個相對的一個難度好在就是說缺乏了一些統一的規範就是我們這樣最常遇到因為各校或各班都不一樣然後當然是有數位落差的問題因為不是每個學生的手機的效能都這麼好的"},{"start":3928.078,"end":3928.198,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3948.664,"end":3958.229,"text":"如果要制定指引的話,要考量什麼事情?第一個,是不是分時段分場所?第二個,要有例外規定,因為教育用途另外,存放區的問題或手機價的問題然後,是不是要訂定手機使用協議?有沒有相關的法則?"},{"start":3963.971,"end":3964.451,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3987.656,"end":4000.109,"text":"謝謝吳張梅副主任果然是政策部副主任已經給大家做了蠻多的基本的分析跟政策可能遇到的挑戰再來我們就請洪孟楷委員發言下一位是李雅雯副理事長"},{"start":4006.136,"end":4025.368,"text":"感謝主席及我們在場委會先進我承認我自己都有一點點手機焦慮為什麼?因為手機在我們的日常生活裡面它扮演了太多的一個重要的一個工具那有些時候你甚至都會覺得是說是不是好像感覺到口袋裡面有在震動"},{"start":4026.229,"end":4048.631,"text":"一拿出來 沒有 訊息太多 但某一個程度的我 也很自豪我現在能夠用手機 一支小小的手機 給我半個小時 我可以做到過去可能我需要一台龐大的電腦 我需要好幾個人來一起協助做的拍攝、影音、剪影片 然後上傳等功能"},{"start":4049.071,"end":4064.819,"text":"甚至過去我擔任不管是發言人或是我現在來處理新聞稿的時候有些時候記者朋友詢問我相關的議題我可以五分鐘裡面手機打了字回傳它就是一個我能夠代表我的新聞稿"},{"start":4065.419,"end":4082.87,"text":"所以選人在州也能赴州我想今天這個議題它其實不只是校園裡面當然教育文化委員會我們討論是校園但實際上是全人類、全社會大家面臨到的問題所以今天除了教育部、文化部以外我想更重要衛福部"},{"start":4083.55,"end":4102.35,"text":"你的心理相關部分你的相關的意見在哪裡還有數位發展部我們在兩年前成立數位發展部請孟成都長除了要數位發展以外數位的協助人類更好的生活以及降低文明病的傷害我覺得這也相對重要"},{"start":4102.87,"end":4103.01,"text":"中小學資訊數養認知網"},{"start":4123.582,"end":4148.369,"text":"這一個是在教育部裡面有提到是說我們現在已經做了那並且裡面有一篇文章我特別有興趣是短影音對於青少年的影響我特別點進去看我也把它看完結論我摘要一下他的結論講的是流行趨勢不可擋因為流量是商機當這些平台變成流量之王的時候其實連藝人、公司都在這些平台上開設頻道"},{"start":4150.369,"end":4161.762,"text":"過去許多師長重視網路遊戲、網路交友為洪水猛獸但不可否認他們曾經引發問題可是多年的調整這一些事務也變成了日常"},{"start":4162.967,"end":4187.243,"text":"因此短影音的興起這個趨勢已經不是小眾的交流原地而是世界級的龐然大物也許它已經不再算是次文化而是承認它為主流文化能做的不只是去抗拒它而是了解它、接受它、疏導它可能的話透過語認一起來調整它這個是我們教育部在中小學資訊素養認知網的"},{"start":4189.875,"end":4215.632,"text":"一篇文章裡面的結論我想講的是某部分我是同意認為說它現在已經是全球的一個趨勢的時候你很難用百分之百的抗拒或是百分之百的禁止因為它是世界的一個趨勢但另外一方面怎麼樣了解它、接受它、疏導它這搞得好像是宗教的言辭一樣有沒有我覺得這才是我們應該要面臨的問題所以我特別拜讀了親子天下我看到今天總編輯有過來"},{"start":4218.174,"end":4242.127,"text":"2024年9月18號歐美中小學校園禁止手機風潮改變了什麼這一篇的報導我想等一下可能總編輯也會來做一個分享其中裡面就有看到歐美的幾個學校甚至澳洲他全國推動要在校園裡面禁止手機我覺得這某種程度上一定是他山之石可以攻錯所以我最後的結論之一"},{"start":4243.127,"end":4266.142,"text":"我會要求教育部是不是針對現在既然歐美國家已經有在做這樣子的一個不管你講說是實驗也好、政策也罷它總是是一個能夠讓我們清晰比較的對照組能不能趕快來去做一個具體的了解到底這幾個學校我們能夠來去掌握它的成效為何"},{"start":4267.003,"end":4286.904,"text":"而進一步變成是我們後續推動政策的一個主要的論述因為這是很明顯的實驗組跟對照組那我們沒有辦法在我們國內裡面突然挑一所學校來講說我們要來實驗組對照組因為畢竟那些都是我們的孩童都是我們的學子但既然國外已經有在做這個事情的話"},{"start":4287.324,"end":4303.469,"text":"所以我第一個結論我希望是教育部真的能夠針對這幾個已經在施行的國家也好學校也好有做一個很完整的第一手資訊的一個掌握第二個部分手機成癮大家講還有幾個很重要的社會問題"},{"start":4304.509,"end":4326.5,"text":"這也是過去長期我關心的因為我自己兩個女兒的父親一個女兒快6歲明年要上小一一個女兒4歲多所以手機成癮幾個問題它其實分幾個面向短影音的氾濫交友平台或社群平台的一個使用以及更重要的是這個相關的照相"},{"start":4327.601,"end":4340.519,"text":"傳訊功能造成性影像的一個剝削所以不管是校園霸凌我們是不是應該要有其他的這些相關條文來去做加重處分的一個防治或者是性犯罪交友的一個"},{"start":4341.906,"end":4341.926,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4361.96,"end":4362.14,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4381.326,"end":4395.911,"text":"原則但畢竟原則是原則而且很多的第一線教育工作者確實也反映沒有強制立或是沒有相關立法確實好像會變成是說中央又推給地方來因地制宜或是各自負責"},{"start":4396.531,"end":4423.845,"text":"所以是不是要有更進一步的一個指引出來我想是需要的那如果說有需要的話就不只是針對手機包括穿戴裝置包括現在流行的所謂的這個虛擬眼鏡等等的也應該一併考慮那最後我想還有一個更重要的是是不是能夠請教育部也會同速發部衛福部、文化部來找幾個相關平台做更嚴謹的年齡分類"},{"start":4426.346,"end":4449.319,"text":"我們看到YouTube它可以針對說小朋友來研發一個YouTube Kids或者是說他來登記的時候你的年齡有更準確的一個分類的一個制度那其他國家有沒有這樣的一個方向那以及我們能不能針對短影音平台針對交友平台我們要求一定要更嚴謹的年齡分級來確保"},{"start":4454.827,"end":4484.027,"text":"未成年的青少年等等的他不會輕易的變成是來上這樣的一個APP來去使用而進一步造成後續衍生的一些社會問題我想拋出來那也感謝趙偉今天再一次的這個召開這樣的一個非常重要的公聽會那很抱歉雖然我沒有辦法全程參與我們公聽會但我都會請我們的同仁在辦公室觀看直播並且記錄每一個專家學者的發言以作為我們未來修法以及推動的一個參考"},{"start":4484.767,"end":4487.449,"text":"再次祝福大家都平安健康感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":4513.652,"end":4531.926,"text":"好主席還有各位與會的夥伴好大家早安我是高雄市教師職業公會副理事長李亞文那因為我們是教師組織所以針對這議題我們也對我們的那個教師們做了一番調查那我們當然就會把重點放在是校園學習的部分那這次我們的調查主要是針對國中小老師他的"},{"start":4533.687,"end":4536.708,"text":"校園學生使用手機與管理問題報告教育現場3C產品產生亂象與困境分4個層面介紹學生行為與學習影響教師管理與規範困難家長與家庭影響技術社交與法律問題"},{"start":4557.273,"end":4582.378,"text":"我們在現場就會非常發現一件事情就是上有政策下有對策學生他不會去遵守很多學生是不會遵守使用時間跟規定的包含在上課的時候偷偷使用手機無法專心偷拍錄音甚至有時候是開通話或開直播以供家長監聽等等行為有一些學生也會利用在考試的時候作弊他不一定會直接拿出來但是他會假借上廁所的時候偷偷使用"},{"start":4582.398,"end":4583.639,"text":"文化委員會 文化委員會 文化委員會 文化委員會 文化委員會"},{"start":4608.172,"end":4608.352,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4634.684,"end":4638.046,"text":"教育部提供的就是一個原則而已只要是原則就有打破的可能就是看各憑本事"},{"start":4658.618,"end":4684.814,"text":"學生硬是不交出來你也不能強迫他交出來你也不可能去收他的手機再來就是家長不配合的時候萬一學生違規使用家長去爭議的時候他就會去跟學校會跟教育局投訴甚至找來里長或民代來施壓這個都是發生過的造成學校就難以執行這些規範所以一個法律明確的支持其實是現場的老師他們是需要的好當然就是因為這只是一個原則所以學校在手機管理上的一致性跟力度就會不足"},{"start":4685.274,"end":4699.53,"text":"有的學校是學校統一管理有的學校是班級來管理有的時候是交給教師管理有的是學生自行管理甚至是沒有規定的也一樣這就造成班級跟教師間的管理不一致那管理不一致的情況之下學生就會裝弄他就說某某老師都讓我們用某老師"},{"start":4701.052,"end":4701.952,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":4727.617,"end":4749.163,"text":"放開我們的輔導管教學生辦法就會發現事實上教室的管教權低下了關係所以對學生的這些手機使用的行為的管控能力也是有限再來也有跨班級的手機借用跟管理問題因為它也有可能就會造成兩個班級老師的管理不一致然後他又借來借去然後就發生一些紛爭所以就會變成不是只是班級內有時候會變成是跨班級的問題"},{"start":4750.103,"end":4773.497,"text":"那這些管理困難常常就會讓老師去承受這些責任與風險常常搞到最後一些嚴格的老師最後他就反其而不然他會常常被投訴所以這是在教室管理的一個部分然後在產生紛爭的時候還要進行一些輔導管教管理的部分然後損壞儀式的時候教室如果進行保管損壞儀式他可能要負起賠償的責任這也是導致教室乾脆放棄管理的原因之一"},{"start":4773.857,"end":4773.937,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4790.368,"end":4812.76,"text":"家長與家庭影響的部分當然最主要是有一些部分家長真的是配合度不高對學校管理的反對跟要求就導致我們難以建立一個一致性的規範因為畢竟教育部的指示原則譬如說關是我們畢業旅行的時候可不可以帶手機出去因為畢業旅行帶手機出去學生就會一直在用手機根本就不會停下來看看周圍的環境也不會去進行一些教學"},{"start":4814.861,"end":4828.057,"text":"平常那個以前的學生那個晚上不睡覺就是在打枕頭戰幹嘛的現在都變成在玩手機所以事實上就會有一些老師要求說欸我們班就說好不要帶手機隔壁班的就跑來抗議啦說為什麼為什麼你不要他帶手機那這樣子我規定他讓他們可以帶手機的時候他們就會"},{"start":4831.881,"end":4832.002,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4847.085,"end":4847.465,"text":"家長在課堂上聯絡學生"},{"start":4871.874,"end":4872.054,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4891.184,"end":4902.249,"text":"今天老師上課造成親師生關係的緊張他是不管有沒有發生任何事情一律要求這樣子說事實上這對我們的親師關係是非常嚴重的問題那再來就是江先生亂講他有技術社交跟法律問題就是智慧型手錶跟手機的連結是管理更為複雜然後在社群平台上一個生氣就上傳IG開限動然後馬上就引發紛爭因為他想都不想就傳上去了所以他就可能沒有思考他"},{"start":4918.015,"end":4918.716,"text":"網絡問題的演訓缺乏強制力與一致性"},{"start":4936.152,"end":4951.082,"text":"好 那我們教育人員對學校跟主管機關是有一些期待的希望對教室的權限跟支持然後家長的角色要一些配合然後要有一個管理規範的需求強調非常需要明確且具體的法律跟規範建議由教育部要制定這個全國統一的管理執行"},{"start":4951.562,"end":4980.541,"text":"避免學校自行決定因為學校自行決定就會有各種外界壓力法律政策的一些建議的部分有包含內涵的部分第一個當然是手機使用的限制國小、國中階段都會非常希望在校期間禁止學生使用手機尤其是在國小階段或者是由學校來統一保管然後針對使用時間跟場合來制定一些明確限制國小老師們都是希望可以全面禁止這些手機進入校園的居多當然是會比較辦不到可是可以考慮看看"},{"start":4981.161,"end":4995.084,"text":"另外一方面是增加加強宣導與教育當然教育部當然是有相關的宣導但是可能不夠力就掛在那邊沒什麼人看這樣子所以就是持續進行一些相關的宣導活動然後希望有一些獎勵跟懲處的機制設立一些明確的懲處條款來應對違規行為讓我們可以那個職學生違規我們可以寄他警告還是什麼之類的不然有時候真的是很難去懲處他們的話沒有那個懲處的機制或是對家長的一些管理的要求強制的要求等等"},{"start":5010.288,"end":5010.528,"text":"技術支持與資源設置保管設備統一管理手機"},{"start":5026.138,"end":5026.298,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5045.385,"end":5045.445,"text":"主席"},{"start":5064.722,"end":5073.768,"text":"好 謝謝李雅雯副理事長也把管理上的很多衝突講得很好我也分享一下我在大學教課的時候其實就發現你給個別老師管理的話成本很高比如我們在放紀錄片的時候會跟學生說不要看手機因為會有光害嘛請大家關機有一次就有一個學生我走到那邊的時候發現他在看我就跟他講說我們在看紀錄片你不想就是不要只有學生一聽我這樣講大學生立刻就站起來就走了"},{"start":5094.68,"end":5113.583,"text":"我後來就覺得,不要去管了,因為這個管了,衝突變得影響他跟我,然後他的學習還有我們有學生,我們講那個事情,我說這件事情不要PO在網路上學生就會同步PO在網路上就發現,有些事情就是非常的有意思,老師事實上是很難處理的"},{"start":5114.224,"end":5114.525,"text":"陳雅惠總編輯郭育晴委員"},{"start":5132.426,"end":5149.346,"text":"好大家早安然後謝謝立法院的邀請我想我們在這裡可以提供一些我們對現場的觀察就是親子天下其實在今年的3到4月我們跟天下雜誌的調查中心合作我們執行了過曝世代中小學生的心理任性調查然後我們這個問卷跟調查我們發到了"},{"start":5152.169,"end":5158.994,"text":"全臺灣22縣市499所國中小然後最後我們成功的回收了9464份的有效問卷然後這個調查的樣本我們的選擇因為他們是出生在2008到2013年就現在那個時候就有讀小學五年級到九年級的學生那他們其實一出生的時候已經有iPhone了所以他們一出生的時候身邊的大人就是人手一級的低頭族"},{"start":5180.41,"end":5185.155,"text":"然後他們在小學階段是全台灣第一代在小學就開始使用線上學習的一個世代然後他們遇到了新冠肺炎的全球停課然後他們是比上一代更早接觸這些數位工具然後他們重返學校以後其實就是班班有大屏深深用平板"},{"start":5201.673,"end":5203.435,"text":"這個調查我這邊跟大家分享兩點關於過曝世代還有整個社群使用的一些還有學習的觀察第一個發現其實在小學五年級到九年級學生的這個階段其實平均"},{"start":5217.031,"end":5217.051,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5235.236,"end":5235.396,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5256.536,"end":5256.596,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5275.034,"end":5275.114,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5295.401,"end":5295.521,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":5314.239,"end":5317.561,"text":"中小學生他們都說其實很想要減少使用手機的時間但是很困難我們透過交叉分析看到每天使用時數比較低的這一群他們是越想要節制反而重度使用者他們就比較沒有這樣子的意識就是說覺得需要降低使用手機的時間"},{"start":5334.932,"end":5349.689,"text":"那在這個調查當中第二個想要跟大家分享的就是我們也看到這一群過曝世代就是他們過度暴露於各式各樣的社群以及手機跟網路使用的這個世代他們其實學習動力是越大越沒有學習動力"},{"start":5350.55,"end":5365.324,"text":"其實天下大概從創刊以來我們幾乎每一兩年都會做關於學習動機的調查但是我們其實每個人也都意識到在現在這個時代尤其面對這個AI科技等等各式各樣的選擇各種門檻都很低其實你心裡頭的學習動機你想學什麼怎麼做選擇"},{"start":5368.707,"end":5374.892,"text":"這件事情是越來越重要了但是我們其實從這次調查裡頭我們看到其實現在的國中小學生從學習中逃走的這個現象還是很嚴重我們看到平均不到七成的中小學生他們說喜歡上學那假設我們拆開從五年級看到九年級你就很明顯的看到年紀越大就越不想要越不喜歡上學然後到了國中九年級大概有47%他們說不想上學不喜歡上學"},{"start":5397.01,"end":5403.494,"text":"他們也都覺得當學生的壓力很大然後主要的壓力來源就是學業所以這兩點關於過曝世代他們大概現況以及社群對他們的影響還有對學習的影響這是我們這次調查當中我想跟大家分享的那另外就是剛剛也有委員蠻多委員就有分享到其實大概是差不多是從今年開始我覺得很多就是大概歐美國家真的我們現在目前看到美國、澳洲、荷蘭、義大利、希臘"},{"start":5424.306,"end":5436.796,"text":"法國還有匈牙利大概都是不約而同從今年甚至是從這一個學年開始討論是不是校園要禁用手機或是制定一些管理手機的辦法那為什麼我覺得其實大家都看到整個疫情後然後這些學生回到學校以後那因為已經非常習慣使用手機還有數位載具來學習他們真的看到了這一代的學生有很大"},{"start":5449.546,"end":5449.746,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5474.714,"end":5487.097,"text":"沒有人意料到的疫情這些都不是我們當年能想到的然後立一個法其實等到你立完法以後真的世界又不知道變到哪裡去了所以我想針對手機成癮是否影響學生學習我覺得目前看到的對學生的學習跟情緒的影響是非常明顯的但是怎麼管理跟怎麼管制我覺得是真的是現在一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":5497.279,"end":5499.58,"text":"我覺得不管是政府還有家庭因為我想把這些責任全部放在學校實在是太沉重其實家庭或是學生在有手機之前可以建立比較好的數位素養或是數位使用的一些紀律是非常關鍵的"},{"start":5514.488,"end":5537.271,"text":"所以其實我們在看其實學校會比較有效率的管理或是制定這樣的議題的管理方法其實若是有大原則或是有分階段的管理但是學校擁有自主權我覺得是很關鍵因為每一個學校的家長組成的成分然後家長可以照顧學生的投入的心力是完全不一樣的還有家長擁有的資源"},{"start":5538.633,"end":5553.947,"text":"這需要手機管理需要高度的家長的共識所以我想一個標準化的一個管理的方式可能會在推動上會遇到很大的困難那這個大概是今天下這次的調查還有一些發現跟大家分享 謝謝"},{"start":5557.728,"end":5571.464,"text":"好 謝謝親子天下的陳雅惠總編輯分享他們非常認真的調查關於就是說過曝跟學習的影響還有對情緒的影響等 謝謝那我們下一位就請郭育晴委員發言然後許英昭請準備"},{"start":5577.75,"end":5604.179,"text":"謝謝主席那在座所有的這個專家學者還有學生以及我們的這個部會首長次長好那我想講到這個手機我自己心有戚戚焉然後因為我剛好就有一個12歲的孩子那今年開始他已經有手機了那最主要的原因是因為其實真的在疫情過後我們就發現因為遠端教學的關係所以大家在學習上其實開始慢慢的改變"},{"start":5604.879,"end":5632.673,"text":"但剛剛就誠如很多的這個專家在講其實真的這個改變其實是與日俱進而且是越來越大那其實剛剛有特別提到其實在歐美早就已經開始有這樣子的一個意識了我舉例來講像義大利他們其實連署已經開始要連署了不管是專家也好或者是教育部也好他們開始要連署14歲以下是禁止擁有手機16歲以下也禁止開社群的一個帳號這是在義大利"},{"start":5634.774,"end":5649.709,"text":"在法國,他們的總統特別要求專家和科學家提出對於兒童螢幕使用的指南他們也是做年齡層的分類就比方說在11歲到13歲手機是不可以上網的"},{"start":5651.684,"end":5674.23,"text":"18歲以前他們是不可以去上TikTok或是IG等等15歲以下是禁止在學校使用手機而且這個禁令有可能最快大概就是明年1月他們就會開始全部實施另外在瑞典的部分其實他們也首度規定不是只有學生在學校的使用方式他甚至也訂定所謂的使用的規範是規定父母們"},{"start":5676.351,"end":5700.464,"text":"要去規定自己的孩子喔那就是訂定這個未成年者他們在使用螢幕看螢幕的一個時間那希臘呢他們也禁止學生攜帶手機入校園那最主要其實是歐美其實他們蠻注重所謂的肖像權喔他說如果你在學校如果拍到學生或拍到老師把這個東西公開上傳最嚴重的他們是會開除喔就是直接把他踢出校園"},{"start":5701.224,"end":5721.984,"text":"其實這個所有歐美國家剛剛也有提到其實在美國他們也真的同步這麼多州當中他們已經也開始慢慢的在實施禁用手機或是手機在年齡層的分級的部分的一個限制那我想這個手機的影響層面真的很大包含其實我剛剛在下面其實我也在看手機那我覺得這個是真的"},{"start":5723.545,"end":5748.532,"text":"以現在來講我們來討論學生他們在網路成癮的原因我想手機的快速的瀏覽或者是他們很多學生他們可能因為在學校碰到的這個課業上的壓力甚至於是同儕之間的一個認同或者是說來自家長家庭上的一個疏離他可能就會上網去尋求遠端不認識的人"},{"start":5750.252,"end":5776.315,"text":"尋求這種認同感那相對的來講回到現實生活當中剛剛其實都有提到這個手機成癮之後他們的社交能力是非常非常嚴重的一個挑戰變成他不知道要怎麼跟人跟人之間溝通我舉個例子來講我的孩子12歲嘛那他現在是還沒青春期但他很多的同學都青春期了我們久久可能這是大家兩個家庭聚在一起"},{"start":5776.875,"end":5776.915,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5795.769,"end":5824.118,"text":"所以都會碰到這樣子一個狀況那我覺得手機其實還有一個會讓很多家長跟師長或者是我們一起共同關心的就是他們看手機成癮之後他們吸收常識、吸收資訊變成很碎片化而不是不能深化了所以現在其實在美國我昨天剛好看到一篇報導就是說33位的美國包含像哥大、普林斯頓"},{"start":5825.598,"end":5830.499,"text":"現在頂尖大學生連一本完整的書都沒辦法看完所以其實這個已經不是我們在討論只有台灣的問題是全世界包含頂尖大學生所以為什麼說這個手機的識別在最嚴重影響的包含有一些去脈絡化的假訊息"},{"start":5854.125,"end":5871.587,"text":"短影音像這種的侵入其實對孩子來講其實是非常非常嚴重的那尤其是在國小階段那不要講說他對學業上的影響包含睡眠品質的影響還有包含視力的影響現在其實小學生戴腳模塑形片的特別多"},{"start":5872.188,"end":5891.08,"text":"以前我們可能還不知道什麼叫角膜塑形片但是這一副買下來其實真的也都不便宜一路要戴到18歲等到他的這個眼球他的視力完整所以其實這個影響層面之大再來現在大家都用手滑代替手寫有沒有發現有很多字我們開始已經不會寫了"},{"start":5891.98,"end":5892.08,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5915.865,"end":5920.249,"text":"指引學生除了聯絡家長以外早自習或午休必須關機甚至有一些班級手機早自習時全部都交過來"},{"start":5933.882,"end":5961.117,"text":"我統一管理到了放學的時候你要聯絡家長怎麼接你或怎麼樣我們再把手機發下去這當然也是一種方法那但是呢其實在現場的第一線我在想說其實不管是校方或者是家長我們自己可能本身就要建立這樣子的觀念手機對於我們現在當然AI方便他們可以從AI機器人很明顯的去看這本書我一下就可以拿出摘要"},{"start":5961.937,"end":5975.921,"text":"我一下子就可以讀完這本書大概在講什麼但是其實這個也真的讓我們很多的孩子們弱化他們閱讀的一個能力這也是我們真的非常非常關心的啦所以今天也非常謝謝就是這個范園委員有這樣子的一個機會我們可以聽聽更多的意見也給我這位家長那也是我這個立法委員有一些這個"},{"start":5984.363,"end":5984.383,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5998.048,"end":6024.695,"text":"非常謝謝國藝群委員分享了除了希臘還有瑞典、義大利等相關的非常有意思的政策還有他個人的親身的親子的經驗謝謝他那我也介紹一下還有一位委員陳金輝委員在現場待會也會發言歡迎他一起來再來我們就請許英昭明川大學工商薪資系的副教授發言下一位是柯惠珍請準備"},{"start":6026.189,"end":6044.318,"text":"主席、次長還有在座各位先進大家早安很榮幸有這樣的一個機會來這裡分享我對於這個題目的一些看法那我在想這個題目其實我想了很久之後在想想要去談的就是一個小而美的"},{"start":6045.814,"end":6054.745,"text":"我想要談的是一個小而美的樂趣就是才能厚實成功的基礎所以我們在談手機要不要做規範可是我在想手機的這個問題其實是孩子網路依賴或是成癮的這樣的一個問題"},{"start":6061.192,"end":6085.35,"text":"那很多時候我們在跟家長說孩子成癮了家長第一個反應會是反應喔我小孩沒有這麼嚴重啊我自己沒這麼嚴重所以我在想也許不到成癮的程度也許是個網路依賴的程度那我覺得這樣的一個議題是不是可以從教育父母來做起我是民傳大學智商臨床與工商心理學系許英曉接下來其實剛剛大家很多先進都已經談到網路對孩子的"},{"start":6087.532,"end":6087.672,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6117.435,"end":6145.75,"text":"手機不在身邊的焦慮這個焦慮真的太大了我有學生會跟我說老師對不起我先回去拿一下我的手機那我等一下會遲到就說你先上完課上課用不到手機他說不行我沒有手機就像裸體一樣我不能專心所以我也學不到你先讓我回去拿手機所以對他們來說手機就很像他的衣服那他有這個手機接下來他會做很多能夠滿足他需要的事情可是也讓他沒有辦法"},{"start":6146.71,"end":6164.209,"text":"放下這個手機去睡覺做這件事可是學生不睡覺他也很焦慮因為他知道他必須要睡覺那接下來就是剛剛也很多先進提到的就是因為手機他們就會有一些犯罪違規的這樣的一個行為所以我們就會看到其實現在各國的禁令都是"},{"start":6165.11,"end":6181.931,"text":"希望手機是不要進入校園甚至義大利就倡議14歲以下的學童禁用手機我覺得這也許是一個好的解方所以我擔心我待會時間不夠我想先說明我的立場我支持我支持手機不入中小學的校園"},{"start":6184.842,"end":6207.732,"text":"這也是我們剛剛就是未來親子學習平台裡面所公布的一個聯合國在2023年全球教育的監測報告裡面就會看到這些使用手機的議題所以教科文組織就呼籲世界各地學校全面禁用智慧型手機我覺得這個禁用其實有它的意義存在"},{"start":6208.272,"end":6208.392,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6229.426,"end":6229.446,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6245.174,"end":6262.627,"text":"父母沒有辦法去處理孩子的情緒議題他就用手機來替代結果孩子越來越大之後那個情緒的問題父母也就越來越無法去協助處理孩子的情緒議題另外一個是網路遊戲、線上遊戲甚至線上課程就會帶來一個很致命的吸引力我們去看那個手遊的設計裡面都一定會去談有點數、徽章、排行榜、等級、關卡"},{"start":6274.176,"end":6297.406,"text":"其實你說這些沒有意義嗎很有意義啊孩子的成就感都被激發了他想去挑戰這些可是呢當這些成就來自於線上網路的這些學習的時候他就覺得其他的都很無趣了而且網路上的所有的課程或是遊戲都有聲光刺激都有很好的安排跟平常我們在家裡或在學校裡的比較其實是很無趣的"},{"start":6300.487,"end":6320.547,"text":"所以其實在回到小時候我們都會帶孩子看繪本的這件事情對孩子真的是太沒有吸引力了一個幼兒園的老師說一個兩歲的小孩剛到幼兒園的時候他把繪本給他他其實是在那個繪本上滑他會用手指在那邊滑然後想說繪本怎麼都不會動"},{"start":6322.489,"end":6347.948,"text":"如果沒有手機這樣的吸引力他會覺得看繪本也很無趣啊去遊戲場玩也很無趣啊要去做美老手做很無趣上課更是無趣去運動也很無趣甚至很多家長會說我們好不容易就是預約到了一家很好吃的餐廳孩子也是在玩手機甚至花了大錢帶孩子出去玩他也在玩手機就像"},{"start":6349.271,"end":6368.571,"text":"剛剛很多先進題的,孩子除了手機以外其他都很無趣所以我想要提到的是說如果孩子從小出生就是天天可以吃冰淇淋他都可以到遊樂園、到遊樂場去玩那些摩天輪什麼那其他的吸引力其實就變得很微乎其微"},{"start":6369.232,"end":6392.946,"text":"所以我想要提出的一個建議就是能不能透過廣告宣傳或是舉辦活動來幫助父母了解因誘而遠離手機對未來學習的正向是很大的影響因為我們現在在食物現場看到很多父母親帶著孩子來就是說我沒有辦法我拿掉他手機他就會大吵大鬧可是如果"},{"start":6393.686,"end":6393.986,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6416.264,"end":6416.284,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6446.804,"end":6447.365,"text":"以上分享謝謝"},{"start":6472.942,"end":6484.113,"text":"我是亞洲大學科惠珍網路成癮防治中心的主任我同時也是網路成癮防治學會的創會因為這個問題非常嚴重在2014年就創立了網路成癮防治學會"},{"start":6493.181,"end":6521.296,"text":"一群人來共同協助那麼現在我也是那個臺中市臨床性工會的理事長長期也一直在推動這方面的活動我想第一個問題我先對第一個問題就是說是不是對學習手機成癮對學習影響我想這部分的實證資料已經相當的多我們可以看到說很多的資料都告訴我們說這個過度的手機的使用那螢幕"},{"start":6522.877,"end":6550.67,"text":"螢幕的screen time的這個過長的使用它會使得注意力分散尤其是現在多功能就是同時間我同時這個螢幕上課然後同時做這件事做那件事多功能的這種任務的話那使學生已經沒辦法專注的在一個功能所以專注力分散那麼工作記憶力跟專注力都減弱這些都有一些實證的資料"},{"start":6551.95,"end":6577.201,"text":"專注的時間減短了所以他沒辦法長時間的在持續的去做閱讀或者是專注在學習工作所以整個來講會對他的學習歷程的成效是會下降的那當然有一些研究也告訴我們說其實長遠的他對我們的認知神經功能是有影響的包括在前二頁"},{"start":6578.481,"end":6579.382,"text":"前額業、杏仁殼、多巴胺系統、大腦輝質密度減少"},{"start":6597.495,"end":6618.841,"text":"這是有關我們說在認知功能這方面的影響那剛剛大家已經提到其實也不是在認知功能或學習上面的影響現在很大的是它引起的還引起情緒行為還有睡眠這些都長期的我們看到這方面的影響另外一個非常重要的親子的衝突"},{"start":6619.201,"end":6636.086,"text":"我2018年做的一個調查是對青少年的家長做的調查有將近24.3%的家長他們抱怨他們在這方面有困擾尤其是當他們要去管教孩子的3C使用的時候就發生衝突"},{"start":6638.067,"end":6638.547,"text":"全球都在關注為什麼現在青少年的憂鬱"},{"start":6657.878,"end":6687.079,"text":"那青少女為什麼特別憂鬱在提高你知道台灣這幾年那個方委員一直在關注嘛我們那個15到24歲自殺率到現在一直攀升還沒有降下來那這些什麼原因呢其中有一個問題就被認為是可能跟這樣子的一個手機使用媒體的使用有關那因為我們現在的快速的可以不斷的去上網"},{"start":6687.619,"end":6690.081,"text":"韓國女郎、俊男、美女都比我好太多,我是那麼的醜。"},{"start":6712.844,"end":6731.139,"text":"自尊降低了,憂鬱提高了,自殺的風險提高了這一點是特別現在很多國家都在關注的一個議題我個人是贊成說應該要適度的來管制但是在這個管制的時候,我先說一下我一個調查"},{"start":6735.102,"end":6742.046,"text":"教育部長期都有在關注這個議題我也是在芝克斯的計畫之下在2014年"},{"start":6748.01,"end":6751.312,"text":"103、104就2014、2015的時候做過全國性的大規模的抽樣的調查那在那個調查除了我們看到那個網路成癮、手機成癮的比例以外"},{"start":6763.66,"end":6763.8,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6794.06,"end":6794.48,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6818.086,"end":6831.7,"text":"這個從小學到國中到高中都呈現這樣子的型態學校如果有這個禁用或者上課不用的他的網路成癮、手機成癮都明顯的比較低那特別我們看國高中那個比例就差"},{"start":6832.921,"end":6858.116,"text":"那個就差很多所以這個是特別我們要注意所以可能還是要有一個更來看看修訂這個手機使用的一個規則那我們可以看到如果說現在要有關手機使用要怎麼樣管理我也收集一下我們大致現在幾個方式完全的禁止使用那我們看到現在就有些是用剛剛這樣"},{"start":6859.957,"end":6860.738,"text":"限制使用時間及地點"},{"start":6877.056,"end":6877.737,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6902.17,"end":6920.417,"text":"提升的效能那我最後要建議的就是說在這個管制的時候要考慮就是幼兒園、國小、國中、高中可能要有不同的管制因為這個不同的年齡級人他的大腦的發展不一樣那他所要限制的跟自主發展的需求也不太一樣"},{"start":6921.818,"end":6938.295,"text":"最後再建議一個是關雞營我們可以看到那個適度的關雞營我曾做過是一個禮拜的關雞營或者是一天的關雞都有很好的效果他都可以明顯的提升這個就是孩子的"},{"start":6938.795,"end":6938.835,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6955.891,"end":6965.036,"text":"謝謝柯惠珍教授提供他們所做的研究包含很多的政策建議下一位是林月琴委員發言她發言後我們先請教育部做第一階段的回應張亮萬間次長回應也會在休息10分鐘之後再請王漢陽理事長發言現在請林月琴委員"},{"start":6986.209,"end":7013.12,"text":"今天很高興召委能夠安排這樣子的一個公聽會的確我們的孩子已經事實上在一個過曝的世代資訊非常非常的多按照聯合國我看他們統計大概目前全世界用網路的大概48%其中這48%裡邊的71%是我們的青少年那從台灣的一些調查裡邊大概也可以看到也就是說幼稚園"},{"start":7014.229,"end":7040.509,"text":"到我們的中年級已經開始第一次就接觸到網路大概佔了75%每一天平均使用網路大概8.3小時所以他不是使用網路而是生活在網路上這是我們這個世代的孩子們所以兒少的任何議題都一直是我最關心的可是網路這一個東西事實上對於"},{"start":7041.79,"end":7070.392,"text":"新少年的影響又非常的大尤其我們的自殺比例已經事實上是位居1到15歲到24歲事實上是第二名10歲到14歲的話是第三名看有一個研究報告也就是說我們國內有幾個位優秀的醫生他用國內的兒少去做觀察就發現我們的性影像外傳跟遊戲的成癮跟我們的網路霸凌"},{"start":7072.011,"end":7095.232,"text":"跟自殺事上是有高度的相關所以到底要不要去管呢可是世界衛生組織把我們現在使用手機叫做臥室文化對於青少年來講我在臥室裡面可以知天下事可是相對的也有可能帶來傷害那首先就先來談手機跟智慧手錶這相關的產品帶到學校去的這個課題"},{"start":7096.973,"end":7097.133,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7119.702,"end":7120.022,"text":"國小的現場要求"},{"start":7148.345,"end":7148.686,"text":"文化委員會 文化委員會"},{"start":7160.526,"end":7179.155,"text":"教室裡邊就是有一個盒子然後把手機放在那邊然後由所謂的學生班長來管理下課的時候的確會讓他們帶回家可是一樣的那要孩子們事實上是同意家長要配合因為有些家長就是不這麼認為他認為學校你就是沒有法源啊你為什麼規定我的孩子不能帶手機我為什麼不能買這些手錶給他們那為什麼孩子不能帶到學校去"},{"start":7189.72,"end":7203.962,"text":"國外的做法呢今天英國電信業者表示要發布新的指導方針也就警告家長11歲以下孩子不應該使用智慧型手機相對我們兒少全法是說合理的時間"},{"start":7205.003,"end":7205.904,"text":"法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":7226.055,"end":7226.075,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7244.272,"end":7272.329,"text":"不管智慧型手機智慧型手錶都是應該去連結網站可是我們國家是沒有一個很確定的政府單位可是二權公約我們在103年已經國內法化他說第二國應該確定一個政府機構來負責協調中央政府部門和各級政府之間的權力政策方向以外應該要有一個單位完完全全來"},{"start":7273.089,"end":7273.109,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7289.016,"end":7289.436,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7314.855,"end":7328.235,"text":"所以可是國際經驗管制是必要的就是說目前網路世界網路平台沒有專法管理下那就各自回到法令去可是其他國家還是有在做管制比如說美國"},{"start":7330.063,"end":7343.648,"text":"他們今年7月就有一個防制成癮性內容剝削的兒童法那我覺得台灣更是需要因為我們從我們的數據來看12歲以上跟兒少就有7%存在網路沉迷那成癮當然更嚴重12到17歲的話甚至到9.6%那國外有做這樣子的一個法規我們到底可不可以來推動因為畢竟它規範了具有成癮性的演算法甚至"},{"start":7359.013,"end":7359.593,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7381.207,"end":7381.227,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7397.066,"end":7415.477,"text":"應召教授說不希望只有指引要明確的法規不過我覺得初步是不是還是至少先有一個指引出來也就是學生攜帶行動載具跟校園的使用的管理規則那第二個我們還是希望教育部可不可以明定兒少媒體教育內容跟實施準則以上 謝謝"},{"start":7418.805,"end":7423.128,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員給我們其他國家的研究的內容還有對教育部有具體的兩點的要求我們現在就先請教育部次長張亮萬堅先做第一階段教育部的回應之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":7438.117,"end":7451.166,"text":"好 謝謝我想感謝那我在台下非常認真的聽了一共九個人次的發言其中包括三位委員我們三個教室團體還有兩位學者專家還有一位親子天下的總編輯那"},{"start":7453.588,"end":7477.095,"text":"聽到的這個 因為學生代表還有家長代表還沒有說啦那前9個這樣聽起來就是大家似乎就是跟之前我們今天稍早所做的報告裡面所訂定的就是說我們過去教育部所訂定的行動載具的使用尤其在校園裡面都是以比較正向使用的原則然後沒有不移禁止"},{"start":7477.916,"end":7492.456,"text":"教育部跟我說,之前也有找過家長團體教育團體,當時得到的共識是希望用正向使用原則,然後用輔導的方式,可是今天聽到的呢"},{"start":7493.444,"end":7510.304,"text":"我看包括三個教師團體的代表兩位學者專家長期的研究針對最新的國際的一個趨勢他大概是希望教育部這邊可以採取比較強制性的規定包括把原則提升到辦法或者是相當的這個"},{"start":7511.505,"end":7513.707,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會 公聽會第1屆第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":7535.524,"end":7536.865,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":7559.122,"end":7573.08,"text":"有關網路的管理涉及到跨部會影響層面包括在教育部各階段的學習包括從幼兒園、小學、國中、高中到大學"},{"start":7573.641,"end":7596.016,"text":"所以這方面我們可能也會來跟衛福部跟樹花部等相關單位來討論怎麼樣的來推動比較全面性的數位素養的一個教育剛才有幾位學者提到說其實除了我們禁止之外我們在校園裡面用比較高強度的管制之外那對於這個數位媒體素養的一個推動"},{"start":7596.817,"end":7596.837,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7612.99,"end":7613.23,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7629.998,"end":7651.41,"text":"數位時代可能有些學習的方式或者是應對是不一樣的這關鍵不是說單純就是關機而已當然在這關鍵裡面我們開玩笑說可以讓孩子知道關機之後可以學什麼閱讀或者是看戲劇、人際互動剛才大家提到網路成癮之後對人際互動、情緒管理甚至都會影響"},{"start":7653.086,"end":7668.965,"text":"其實我在最近到學校去我曾經聽到一個大學校長跟我說今年大一他們的那個校安事件就是自殺的自產的是高過於二三四年級那在高中階段他們跟我講說可能會有一些狀況那是不是跟疫情有關"},{"start":7669.986,"end":7688.754,"text":"因為疫情之後我們青少年事實上對於手機的這個依賴度跟所謂的成癮度可能是比較高的那也影響到他們的情緒管控所以今天我很高興在聽了九位學者專家但我來不及聽我們家長代表我們家長代表是不是有改變態度啦剛才我"},{"start":7690.655,"end":7708.061,"text":"我不小心透露我自己唯一跟孩子衝突的就是因為手機的管理我看洪孟凱、看那個誰委員還有郭益群委員、還有齊慧穎都說也有類似的困擾所以我比較安慰一點所以這個是家長還有剛才教授有做一個調查說24.3%的家長"},{"start":7710.882,"end":7710.922,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7732.293,"end":7752.811,"text":"這是過去的環境是希望用比較開放式正面性的可是現在的國際上的各種調查的數據包括對於健康的影響包括使用的那個情緒跟那個孩子的那個行為失控的行為包括情緒管理人際關係那個調查是越來越清楚假如是這麼"},{"start":7753.672,"end":7776.426,"text":"明顯的危害的數據都出來的時候我相信對於校園使用手機的管制還有孩子對於數位教育素養推動的迫切性我想這個都必須要加強這方面我們會來請智科師這邊還有我們的國教署還有我們跨部會的單位相關單位來做一個積極的跨部的協商來回應大家"},{"start":7776.826,"end":7776.846,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7807.766,"end":7828.035,"text":"謝謝張亮萬間次長很認真的聽大家的發言那也有很清楚的三點的回應就是大家的共識他希望就是往更強度的辦法的話那他們會認真的演繹那還有就是非常樂觀啟程如果立法院的大院能夠有一個立法的規範最後就是跨部會的討論相關的數位素養等等那他也會去努力"},{"start":7832.797,"end":7834.358,"text":"休息10分鐘,家長代表王漢陽理事長發言"},{"start":7859.861,"end":7860.321,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7890.319,"end":7890.339,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7908.246,"end":7908.466,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7933.76,"end":7933.78,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7961.765,"end":7961.785,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7984.724,"end":7984.744,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8004.119,"end":8004.339,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8456.458,"end":8456.598,"text":"陳建制教授"},{"start":8476.368,"end":8502.955,"text":"好 各位大家好那首先很謝謝那個范雲委員因為禮拜一還跟我們一起召開了關於神經發展當中的一個記者會那今天其實這個議題我也要特別強調到說這個議題其實不只是現在手機成癮的問題而是跨部會要去面對的問題因為他已經明確的告訴我們他影響我們的神經部位的發展了所以既然影響到孩子神經部位的發展的情形之下那我們"},{"start":8504.142,"end":8531.44,"text":"再近一點是不是好神經部位的發展情形之下我們要更重視這個狀況所以我們的標題很清楚國際專家現在開始呼籲3C成癮危害兒少大腦與情緒發展那發言稿我有給大家書面的我就重點摘要跟大家去講第一個首先要告訴大家的一件事情就是3C的部分在國外講的是螢幕使用不只在手機的使用上面是螢幕使用這個數據統計是在這裡"},{"start":8534.142,"end":8534.342,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":8550.773,"end":8568.08,"text":"現在這個議題惡化到一個程度我覺得教育部、衛福部、NCC、數位部都應該要出來去共同討論做解決首先第一個危機出現其實在親子天下大家在看手機成癮那篇的時候我們看到的是早期療癒這一塊早期療癒這一塊10年成長了12倍10年成長12倍3萬4千多人那我要告訴各位真正到發展遲緩"},{"start":8577.003,"end":8594.654,"text":"先天的以臺灣的數據只有1000多人而已所以3萬多人接下來只有1000多人是什麼先天性的發展遲緩其他的很有可能就是神經發展障礙相關的問題那在這個執行的部分有提到執行就是他在訪談當中有提到"},{"start":8596.115,"end":8596.816,"text":"國際行動聯盟與台灣認知功能促進協會"},{"start":8626.375,"end":8634.825,"text":"當中與會非常多專家也包含臺安、馬街、長庚、臺大的精神科主任各方權威來到我們現場當中同時在這個議題科技成癮的議題當中他們非常的關注同時也告訴我們"},{"start":8641.292,"end":8642.073,"text":"第3個,我們有一個補充資料"},{"start":8657.751,"end":8686.334,"text":"特別在這個Anthony Hansen他其實在講到這一段因為他本身就是他來台灣過3年那其實他在美國是一個實務的諮商心理師也是一個臨床心理師非常了解這個現場所以他提供給我們後面附錄相關的數據那我相信這些相關數據對我們非常寶貴等一下我會簡單帶過去讓大家知道一下那你可以掃QR Code因為資料太多了所以你掃QR Code上面裡面的資料我們都會補充到"},{"start":8687.795,"end":8710.125,"text":"再來美國兒科醫學會其實也講到這件事情這個我有關3到5歲的一個孩子如果他在使用螢幕使用超過一個小時且缺乏父母參與的情形之下大腦的白紙我們講大腦有灰白紙灰白紙就會影響孩子的一個發展所以其實這次他是一個實際的研究報告"},{"start":8710.865,"end":8732.279,"text":"再翻過來其實大家可以知道現在我們台灣所謂的認定精神方面的疾病都是用DSM精神疾病診斷的一個分類來去看的所以有關這方面神經發展的部分呢其實專家建議已經有開始需要干預的問題出現了如果再不去做干預的情形兒童使用的這個螢幕時間的話有可能會讓神經發展障礙去越來越嚴重那我們有幾點具體建議那第一個"},{"start":8740.084,"end":8761.069,"text":"具體技能建議第一個就是我們這個專家Hanson當中的一個建議就是手機使用時間階段性要去控制再來睡前30分鐘不要去使用避免影響睡眠再來學齡前避免使用3C再來教育部盡快提出指引不要增加校園負擔甚至限制安排學生使用手機"},{"start":8762.269,"end":8785.462,"text":"網路完成作業的課程那其實家長擔心的是找不到孩子那我們有問過那家長如果找不到孩子那學校如果有一定的聯絡窗口其實沒有必要一定說手機或智慧型手機這是這幾點的補充那為什麼我要趕快講那麼快呢要做補充是因為我們要講到賦錄的部分有一本書非常值得大家去看也是目前現在紐約時報排行前三名的那已經霸榜22週的那這是"},{"start":8791.205,"end":8794.887,"text":"這本書其實台灣現在還在翻譯中它目前翻譯大概可以說是焦慮的一代它裡面有非常多的數據告訴我們Z世代12到27歲這個時間的族群自殺程度非常快出現年代是從什麼時候開始2010年開始出現急劇變化心理健康人數男性從52%生長到12%女性心理健康的危機從13%到25%"},{"start":8820.322,"end":8833.171,"text":"再來2021年開始的時候就是我們的手機iPhone4開始的那個時候呢自殺自殘的比例男性增加到48%女生增加到188%智慧型手機從2021、2010年開始23%有智慧型手機一直到了2016年超過79%"},{"start":8842.117,"end":8870.889,"text":"有這個手機所以其實這個幅度螢幕使用時間也大幅增長到46%那書中有提到一個很好的方式剛才也特別講在階段是超過三週的階段確實是幫助孩子心理狀況有效改善他是一個確實的數據跟資料的最後的結果所以我沒時間把書中帶完但是大家掃QR code可以去看一下那其中提到的現在關鍵因素很多碎片化時間但是"},{"start":8871.869,"end":8901.083,"text":"它裡面也有提到四個最後書中關鍵的一個建議就是第一個高中之前不應該擁有智慧型手機的示警第二個16歲不使用社群的示警避免你人設當中被一些網路公司使用第三個學校全面禁止手機使用第四個家長應允許孩子更多不受監督的玩樂時間鼓勵發展獨立的行動那相關書我覺得大家可以再去看或者掃QR code我們相關說明也在裡面"},{"start":8901.523,"end":8901.903,"text":"王瀚陽理事長"},{"start":8921.658,"end":8936.819,"text":"就是腦部的研究跟神經發展障礙的研究提到他對學習因為我想大腦的影響就會影響學習嘛那神經的部分影響到情緒那已經有具體的研究那包含就是建議說兒童青少年每天使用"},{"start":8937.159,"end":8937.199,"text":"陳金輝委員"},{"start":8967.134,"end":8980.733,"text":"主席在場各位的與會先進還有各位夥伴大家早安我是臺北教育大學教育經營管理學系的陳建志陳副教授那同時也是一位擁有5歲跟10歲孩子的雙寶爸"},{"start":8981.834,"end":9006.175,"text":"所以這個議題我覺得以我長期來做一些實驗研究跟觀察還有對於一些教育現場的了解有一些心得跟一些想法想要跟各位關心這個議題的夥伴先進來做一個報告首先這兩個議題我覺得我的主張就是相當認同我們立法院或教育部應該要趕快明確的建立相關的指引並且"},{"start":9007.256,"end":9021.808,"text":"PUSH學校快速地去訂立相關的規範這樣子老師在教學的時候他也會更有所本地去進行一個相關的要求這個是我的一個最終的一個目標我是非常支持趕快建立學生的手機"},{"start":9023.409,"end":9049.04,"text":"實用指引的那第二個部分在跟各位做報告的時候我想我們要先談的問題就是第一個在我們立法院發了會通的時候他有講說民間統計還在學齡的過曝世代那何謂所謂的學齡學齡在我們台灣目前的定義是什麼呢這個可能是大家可以去思考的問題是指12年國民基本教育是從我們的國小一年級階段一直到國中"},{"start":9049.6,"end":9049.64,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9068.191,"end":9094.387,"text":"因為剛剛我們范雲主席也提到說我們在大學階段基本上對於學生的手機是完全無法可管的除非老師你就明訂一些規定在我的課堂你要來修我的課第一你不得經過我的同意你不能夠帶智慧型手機進來不能夠使用平板載具等會我們台大政治系的同學可能會說天啊這是什麼威權時代嗎還有這種老師嗎還是有的啦好不好所以可能跟你們做一些交流"},{"start":9094.927,"end":9109.744,"text":"所以何謂學齡階段可能各位我們現場的先進要先思考這個問題是不是我們台灣要把成年階段因為我們已經百分之百幾乎都上大學了是不是要把大學階段的孩子也納入到這個規範呢我們台大同學開始頭腦在思考了好快速的運轉第二個"},{"start":9114.87,"end":9137.843,"text":"何謂手機成癮其實基本上我覺得這個應該要放大更廣泛的議題來看因為絕對不會是手機成癮單獨的問題因為如果手機把它網路互聯功能全部切掉的話它完全不會成癮嘛它只是一個智慧型手機就是手機它只能通話會成癮嗎其實我們應該要放大更廣泛的議題來看它應該是所謂的網路成癮"},{"start":9138.843,"end":9152.57,"text":"其實不會是手機成癮問題因為包含了還有我們的智慧載具啊包含了平板包含了我們的notebook等等這些議題裡面當然因為手機它很快就可以快速地拿出來平板也越來越快就像iPad"},{"start":9154.131,"end":9154.371,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9180.691,"end":9204.813,"text":"特別在疫情這個部分數位教學之後數位教學到底會不會比傳統教學學生的學習成效更進步呢?因為很多研究都有證明就是比如說我們用一個班級他是用英才王的教學因為班級中老師我們傳統紙筆教學蠻多研究都證明了我們使用數位教學數位載具它對學生的學習成效是有差是有顯著的提升的因此數位教學"},{"start":9206.154,"end":9232.495,"text":"會不會跟我們所謂的網路的過量使用它該怎麼樣去整合這個我想是教育部跟我們智科是等等開始去構思一個問題因為像我們已經有訂立了數位教學指引3.0甚至有家長的數位學習指引還有校長的數位學習領導的指引這些指引都已經出來了那這些指引怎麼跟我們的網路使用相關做一個串接"},{"start":9233.971,"end":9254.817,"text":"因為我們鼓勵學生數位教學鼓勵老師數位教學所以我們深深用平板斑斑有大平這個政策基本上已經一直推出在我們的教育現場因此我們一方面在鼓勵數位教學但是我們又希望學生不要網路成癮所以這個部分可能我們未來政府再做一個我們政策在推你的時候這個地方"},{"start":9255.157,"end":9278.896,"text":"一定要先好好的去考量到是這個地方的一個思考第二個就是我們所謂的不同產業是不是要有相關的指引因為我們教育經濟系關係到就是我們從國小一直到我們大學以及相關它的延伸產業比如說補教產業因為學生我們有時候去關心學生學生特別在一個地方他不會使用手機叫做補習班我說奇怪你們在補習班為什麼都不常使用手機他說補習班老師教得很好"},{"start":9280.217,"end":9301.825,"text":"他對我們考試很有幫助而且我們額外花了錢所以我們在補習班特別的認真那你們在課堂上滑手機的用意是沒有老師我們要紓解一下身心有時候就覺得很納悶是不是針對不同的產業補教產業學生會特別認真這個問題大家你也可以去思考看看第三個我非常贊成我們剛剛的"},{"start":9303.326,"end":9330.148,"text":"教授講的家庭教育其實才是真正的手機網路成癮最大的一個關鍵點因為其實現在數位育兒時代我們親子天下也做了很多的報導手機育兒是現在家長常見的育兒方式我們去逛百貨街百貨公司的美食街一二歲的孩子家長在滑手機在吃飯前面就放了一台平板我們如何要求這樣子的孩子他必須沒有網路成癮呢"},{"start":9331.268,"end":9348.421,"text":"然後這些孩子進到了我們的教育界階段我們到底可以為他們做一些什麼他們在兩三歲的時候就已經習慣於網路就已經習慣於平板就已經習慣於載具那我們是不是可以多做一些什麼所以這個我剛剛也提到說在我的倡議裡面就是我們的數位學習指引應該要囊括一些跟網路成癮、網路素養的部分同時推給我們的家長因為其實從家長端開始做起這才是我覺得這個議題最"},{"start":9360.27,"end":9360.67,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9386.347,"end":9396.536,"text":"陳建志副教授加上二寶的爸分享他的觀察跟相關的研究建議我們就請陳金輝委員發言下一位石美煥請準備"},{"start":9402.112,"end":9420.843,"text":"早安主席 還有很開心今天遇到這麼多家長、老師代表以及我們教育部的官員還有學生等等剛剛也有花時間跟學生聊一聊那我今天真的是花蠻多時間在這裡因為我也是受害者 我也是成癮者所以我非常關心這個議題那也謝謝昭緯舉辦這樣子的公聽會 因為"},{"start":9424.525,"end":9439.436,"text":"很明顯剛剛已經聽到很多數據了世界上的趨勢已經看出嚴重性所以我們從德國、法國還有美國的某一些州大家是開始限制那目前其實南韓的年輕人也有蠻大的反彈因為南韓的立法委員們也在研擬這樣子的立法"},{"start":9445.601,"end":9445.621,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9466.741,"end":9488.109,"text":"文件去勾選我小孩然後他們就反過來勾選我因為我們自從來這個職場這手機是不離身的因為黨團的訊息是從早到晚所以我自己都覺得我在這邊是更加的嚴重所以下班回家我看到他們三個在滑我就"},{"start":9488.829,"end":9505.363,"text":"一路滑到要睡前我就非常神奇我說不然我現在要開始沒收了他們就回我說你沒有發現你自己也滑了一整晚嗎而且我是自己一邊用一邊叫他們把手機放下剛剛那個親子天下的總編輯很感謝你有來到現場因為過曝時代的心理韌性調查報告這個我也看了孩子們因為手機不在身邊而感到焦慮"},{"start":9515.592,"end":9537.626,"text":"他們認為玩這個社群對他們有正面的影響但相對的又因為社群感到焦慮所以也想自己都想要減少使用這種矛盾的心理就充分顯現手機跟網路還有社群跟讀影一樣即使使用者希望停止也無能為力這也是我跟昭緯常常"},{"start":9538.627,"end":9560.262,"text":"的這個感受吧晚上不看LINE怕有重要事情又錯過了那我曾經訪問過一位手機APP的這個程式設計師他說對他們而言他們有一個很重要的KPI就是要讓你上映所以他自己講的他說我一天花10個小時當手機工程師設計這個APP就是為了讓你上映啊你如何"},{"start":9570.107,"end":9583.433,"text":"每一個APP經過我們的醫學、精神科醫學統計就是你在用的時候就給你多巴胺它是讓你有一點心快感所以當你沒有用的時候你會覺得很難過正向的感受會降低"},{"start":9584.693,"end":9604.691,"text":"所以我們知道說討論到這個成癮的問題就是控制他不要用可能也不是很有效的方法因為這個當他開始用的時候這個Dopamine又升高了所以我們很難用意志力去克服手機成癮而是我們必須要用科學的方法來協助、借儲"},{"start":9605.612,"end":9632.414,"text":"所以因此我就找了一些醫學的論文去報導指出說小朋友或是成人有這樣子成癮的一大因素其實就是環境所以我們應該要透過環境的管控來影響他們的使用習慣戒除這個癮症但是其實我們今天一直講教育部、教育部、學校等等結果統計起來其實他最常使用手機平板的時段是在家中"},{"start":9634.015,"end":9660.523,"text":"國內有做過這個調查啦中小學的學生我說比較年紀輕當然高中生大學生很多時間都已經不在家裡了所以他使用網路的地點多在家中而且使用的時間是假日多於平時也就是說我們要協助學生少用的話家庭是一個非常重要的因素所以我自己常常去找這些資源要幫忙剛有講到說教育部有提供"},{"start":9661.383,"end":9661.563,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9680.447,"end":9680.467,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9696.544,"end":9719.21,"text":"有開YouTube頻道的立委同仁們實在使用率實在是太低了我們全國有這麼多的家長學生需要所以我去讀了中小學家長數位學習知能指引這個不誇張它總共有84頁裡面居然只有一頁談到我們要如何預防學生成癮"},{"start":9720.31,"end":9743.13,"text":"你可以回去翻一下這83頁是講什麼呢是講我們數位學習的演進他是怎麼來的AI好棒棒他有多有效他的重要性在哪裡他對學習的幫助有多大那未來的願景是怎麼樣結果家長翻開了這本學習知能指引居然只有一頁沒有具體的方法喔他就只是告訴你說但是喔你在輔導學生做這個"},{"start":9746.232,"end":9761.289,"text":"自能學習的時候一定要注意到不要讓他上癮我想表達的是我作為一個三寶媽家長的立場看著孩子滑手機我自己很焦慮可是我自己也用這麼多我要如何說服他不要用"},{"start":9761.889,"end":9782.003,"text":"我相信多數的家長也很無助所以我希望教育部進一步考慮是否禁用手機之前同步思考如何協助家長陪伴孩子跨越手機使用的不良習慣不要最後是家長跟孩子一起滑從科技冷漠變成家庭冷漠"},{"start":9782.563,"end":9804.011,"text":"我在這邊非常具體的建議如果召委有興趣您也可以請臺大兒家中心的過來做一個presentation因為兒家中心啊大家現在只要查他們的網站他出了一個幫助家長的陪孩子在數位網路世代成長的指南那又叫做網影手冊"},{"start":9805.111,"end":9820.692,"text":"他比這個教育部做得少他只有72頁可是他非常好用他就是一個一個的例子列出來針對不同的使用習慣有不同的指引很快速的可以去閱讀比如我舉一些例子等一下大家就可以上網看他就說"},{"start":9821.753,"end":9840.02,"text":"你幾歲應該要給小孩子手機舉了一個例子再來如果你跟小孩因為網路吵架怎麼辦那什麼狀況你要帶他去看醫生他拒絕你應該要怎麼辦為什麼你小孩喜歡玩暴力的網路遊戲你小孩為什麼會在網路上交友為什麼你孩子想當網紅"},{"start":9841.36,"end":9867.352,"text":"你如何觀察你小孩是網路去霸凌別人的人還是是霸凌的受害者那為什麼他會想要花錢買點數他一個一個很實用的例子列出來這樣家長才會去用不然你教育部做這個手冊根本對我們來說一點都不實用所以我很希望說未來我們可以一起在這個場域再更深入的去探討學校、教育部、家長"},{"start":9868.533,"end":9868.833,"text":"今天就發表到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":9899.568,"end":9927.995,"text":"好,非常謝謝陳金輝委員提供到他做了研究之後相關覺得有用的臺大兒家中心的網易手冊那還有也給教育部很明確的希望把對家長、家庭教育也會影響我們學校也應該要把指引要更明確啦好,那再來我們就請也是我們的教師代表石美煥全國高中學校教育產業工會的理事長發言下一位我們學生代表要上場了我們李瑞玲同學請準備"},{"start":9935.321,"end":9962.682,"text":"各位教育夥伴大家好陳儒主席的介紹所以我是在高中我們就是在主席剛才有特別報告我們是第二嚴重除了大學之外的那我想大學嚴重是因為大學都成年人了其實教育部基本上應該沒有辦法去設立什麼指導辦法不能去管一個成人可是高中也是一個很困擾的一個年紀因為我們高三的學生其實也開始邁入成年了所以其實這個問題在我們"},{"start":9964.423,"end":9993.952,"text":"在高中裡面有另外一個嚴重的問題就是他18歲以下我們也許可以直接管可是18歲以上的高三學生我們怎麼辦那這是我之前有特別因為在高中裡面有去查看過一下一個高中對這個學生他們對各個臺北市各高中的一個評價裡面有一個很有趣的他們把這個學校能不能使用手機也列為他們對這個學校的推薦之一"},{"start":9995.632,"end":10010.285,"text":"所以我發現其實臺北市目前真正還能在這個議題上面去管學生的高中其實一隻手掌可以數得出來基本上大部分的學校已經對這個議題已經管到就幾乎只能放棄了"},{"start":10011.721,"end":10027.75,"text":"主要的原因就是因為如果教育部都是把相關的辦法要求學校自定那如果家長沒有辦法明確的在這個議題上面非常支持學校那老師只要一管理其實就是跟學生造成一種失聲衝突"},{"start":10029.071,"end":10055.709,"text":"就是剛才主席所說的其實個別管理的這個管理的成本其實非常大的所以其實個別老師去管其實基本上已經很難去管了所以其實我們來開這個公聽會的時候幾乎所有老師聽到都是拍手叫哇教育部要開始管了好棒喔我們終於可以有一個支持能夠真的去全面禁止學生來使用手機我大概說明一下"},{"start":10057.031,"end":10078.317,"text":"我們在學校裡面看到的一些狀況我們在學校裡面看到的是因為高中需要上一些選修課程所以其實我自己有開一些多元選修所以我們有讓學生用桌遊融入去教學我們現在看到的狀況學生的注意力缺乏缺乏到學生在聽桌遊的規則的時候"},{"start":10080.319,"end":10080.599,"text":"規則說明規則說明規則說明規則說明"},{"start":10098.117,"end":10118.271,"text":"他不會想停下來聽你在說明規則所以可以看到他們的注意力的缺乏已經到了非常嚴重的狀況那另外一個是其實我們現在看到的是因為我去年還擔任這個學校的秘書所以其實我可以瞭解我們學校為什麼算是管得比較嚴格的"},{"start":10121.033,"end":10143.935,"text":"因為我大概一天平均大概接到學生手機使用然後要寄過的人數大概都在十幾人而這個我以實際的實情來看我說實在這個可能還低了一點因為其實我們只要出去巡堂的時候就會看到學生不時就偷摸一下有時候手機為什麼它麻煩的是因為它可以隨身攜帶所以"},{"start":10145.296,"end":10163.539,"text":"學生放在抽屜裏面或隨身帶在書包裏面的任何地方他會想隨時拿出來所以其實我們看到有的時候有些學生寄過單是他的字變都是寫說我只不過想拿出來看一下結果就被老師抓到了那這個其實是管控比較嚴格的老師"},{"start":10164.505,"end":10189.085,"text":"那其實麻煩的是,如果老師不是這麼嚴格管控,基本上就失守了。為什麼?因為我在上選修課,所以有時候選修課我們沒有想管得這麼嚴,因為我們有些查詢資料的東西還會用到手機。只要我們不是一直不斷地在他旁邊監控他,他的狀況就是馬上直接又跳到相關的遊戲、相關的社群。"},{"start":10190.39,"end":10214.515,"text":"就像我們前面家長也說了其實我看過大概這本書的介紹因為來參加這個會就很多這個老師也說這本書其實是為什麼目前現在西方開始全面禁止各個這個學生使用手機一個很重要的一個參考的資料因為作者是一個本身是一個社會心理學家他有談到裡面很多"},{"start":10215.987,"end":10236.613,"text":"向臉書向Instagram他們如何去推波讓學生上癮這一塊所以我們看到這本書裡面他在寫其實學生基本上是無從讓他用自己的自身的意志去戒斷這些東西的為什麼因為這就是一個上癮他已經有上癮的症狀所以你很難去處理這一塊"},{"start":10238.354,"end":10266.58,"text":"那其實這本書本是在講焦慮我必須要說另外一個更嚴重的狀況是我現在看到的是因為我那時候要經過很多校安的通報會在我手上我們會看到幾乎每個禮拜都有學生有自傷的狀況當然其中有幾個是特別嚴重的我講那個特別嚴重的同學他幾乎講實在話每個月至少都好幾次"},{"start":10268.874,"end":10295.922,"text":"所以累積起來學校只要有三五個這樣的同學學校就疲於奔命每天都在追學生有沒有學生今天又走出教室有沒有學生去上廁所的時候會不會發生什麼事情其實讓學生讓整個班級讓整個老師其實都非常的焦慮只要這個同學一不在了許博導師就要隨時緊盯的要去注意他所以累積了這些狀況我們要說我們有一些建議"},{"start":10297.262,"end":10320.873,"text":"所謂的建議是很感謝立法院辦這個公聽會那很希望立法院教育部跟各界合起來我覺得應該基本上應該是在高中以下的學生應該至少在學校會全面禁用尤其是分齡處理的時候由於手機會讓一般人上癮所以尤其是大腦未成熟的也就是七歲以下的兒童他大概也發育到九成"},{"start":10322.3,"end":10351.142,"text":"這樣子的兒童其實應該要全面的禁止我想也許對家養不能有什麼罰則可是你至少應該是要有一個明確的來說明他是一個禁止的那接下來就是學校的部分那目前還是要感謝教育部其實中小學還是有規範所以中小學在這一塊目前守得還是比較緊可是高中其實就比較麻煩了所以高中這部分的指引可能也要請再修改一些字眼不是盡量而是要比較嚴格的禁止我想"},{"start":10351.844,"end":10353.049,"text":"這樣子對所有的學生都好謝謝"},{"start":10355.654,"end":10379.961,"text":"謝謝那個石美煥理事長跟我們講這個高中的情況也非常的棘手然後包含就是說學生智商的比率然後這個記過等等造成的就是說各種狀況好 那謝謝他那我們再來就是我們的今天的第一位學生代表我們李瑞玲她是國立台灣大學政治系的同學那下一位我們陳培鈺委員請準備"},{"start":10384.359,"end":10387.423,"text":"早安 大家好今天想要帶給大家的主題其實是幫學生找到意義感是回應手機議題的關鍵解方"},{"start":10398.777,"end":10420.903,"text":"那剛剛大家好像都很好奇學生是怎麼想的我們確實有做了一個調查我們在社群帳號開投票問國中是否應該收手機跟高中是否應該收手機哇 這個非常踴躍好 我們先看國中好 國中是否應該收手機呈現了五五波好 這個看起來就很一般嘛 對不對我們來看一下高中大家覺得高中會長怎麼樣"},{"start":10423.032,"end":10431.416,"text":"哇 不能修沒有錯沒有錯這大概有九成以上的學生認為高中不應該收手機但我想更重要的問題是為什麼為什麼高中生覺得不應該收手機那針對這一題其實我們也因為這樣的一個狀況做了一些訪談我們總共做了19位文字訪談跟做兩場焦點團體那我們邀請了就是全台八個縣市的高中生來問"},{"start":10450.365,"end":10463.891,"text":"今天提綱來詢問大家的問題那我們來看一下有哪一些事情是值得大家關注的我想第一個重點是學生不希望收手機並不等於學生不希望建立手機指引"},{"start":10464.915,"end":10476.543,"text":"為什麼呢?因為其實學生會覺得說啊你看那個某某某高中是不是因為他們是什麼明星高中他們就不收啊我們現在是什麼社區高中或私校就要收這其實對學生來講是什麼呢?是一個不平衡的狀況嘛又或者是在其他方面其實學生是希望知道如何使用手機的所以說第一個學生期待有法規來做全國統一那我想這一點跟所有的教師團體跟家長團體的論述應該是差不多的"},{"start":10494.335,"end":10496.156,"text":"學習如何使用手機來去做這個手機指引其實也是很重要的"},{"start":10509.484,"end":10531.925,"text":"第二點,學生現在是數位原住民,現在資訊快速發展下,學習形態其實已經改變了。那我想手機這件事情,其實是現在大家生下來就會去接觸到的東西。所以你要突然在國中時期、高中時期跟他講說,你不能用。那我想這個對學生來講,它裡面是會有很大的漢格的。"},{"start":10532.606,"end":10537.429,"text":"所以說其實學習如何學習使用手機才是解決這個問題的關鍵我們必須要建立學生使用手機的意義是什麼他為什麼要使用他為什麼有哪一些危害我想這個也是現在108課綱裡面資訊素養"},{"start":10549.835,"end":10569.015,"text":"要帶給學生一個很重要的議題那再來第二件事情其實是資訊產品不可以收走這是什麼意思呢我們今天如果把學生的手機給收走了我們必須要提供給他另外一個方式能夠回應他自己的學習型態以及學習模式現在我想在很多的國中或者是高中"},{"start":10569.415,"end":10576.586,"text":"其實配合這整個深深有平板慢慢有網路這樣的一個政策我想越來越多學生會習慣這些資訊載體或者是資訊載具的使用那我想比起要去嚴格的去管控他們要用或不用"},{"start":10585.239,"end":10585.419,"text":"我想這是第二個重點"},{"start":10600.598,"end":10620.873,"text":"再來第三個重點其實是探討到更深層的意義經過我們的訪談其實很多學生都提到了手機是學生追尋自我身份認同以及意義以及目標的方式那我們來看到就有學生回說你越是收我的手機我就越不給你收我想這個應該是很多教學現場的老師都共同遇到的狀況我們也實際訪談過那一位學生他就講說"},{"start":10629.719,"end":10654.067,"text":"如果今天你收我的手機我就開ABG今天如果你連學校的網路你不讓我連你讓我斷外面的網路我就翻牆我就用VPN我想這個應該是現場很多教師有深刻體驗到這樣的一個狀況所以說比起去嚴加的管制這邊提到的是高中生的使用我們不如去告訴他們使用手機的意義在哪裡"},{"start":10654.907,"end":10667.953,"text":"此外現在在VUCA也就是這個VOCA時代就是這個各種不確定性之下手機其實是可以短期解決學生壓力跟焦慮的最快方式也就是說"},{"start":10669.304,"end":10674.327,"text":"如果今天學生在面對一些抱怨或者是說遇到一些不爽的時候他們最想做的事情應該會是什麼呢?應該會是馬上發個現實動態或者是說在説上面抱怨一下可能是老師、家長或者是同學之類的或者是說甚至手機是一個建立他們自己自我認同的一個方式"},{"start":10691.796,"end":10711.545,"text":"所以說面對這樣的一個問題我們更要問的問題應該是如果今天學生能夠可以找到自己面對這個社會的意義感那手機它會是一個危機還是它其實會是一個讓自己能夠成長的轉機"},{"start":10713.846,"end":10717.168,"text":"所以也就是說手機其實並不是這個命題下面最大的問題這個命題最大的問題其實應該是大家不知道如何去運用自己的工具那進而讓這些可能手機這樣的一個載體變成了一個成癮的狀況那這個成癮的狀況進而衍生出什麼呢進而衍生出他不知道要怎麼樣回應這個焦慮"},{"start":10739.582,"end":10739.822,"text":"公聽會議：完整會議"},{"start":10762.398,"end":10778.328,"text":"在第一線的教師與學生共同去創立一個如何使用手機的意義以及為什麼要使用手機的意義所以說如果我們今天在兒時能夠用閱讀用陪伴去取代3C我想這樣子應該對於學生來講他會告訴我說"},{"start":10783.972,"end":10810.654,"text":"我使用這些載體其實是可以幫助我的事情如果今天我們在中學時期能夠被告知用手機造成的危害有哪一些那我可以如何用手機來做更深遠的學習那我相信在這樣的手機的成癮的狀況下大家雖然都是過曝世代但是每個人都能夠好好的來運用手機進而找到自己適合的風氣那我想我們的分享就到這邊謝謝大家"},{"start":10813.637,"end":10813.897,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":10847.539,"end":10863.689,"text":"謝謝主席,瑞玲你剛剛講的吧,很多我要講都講完了這樣,但是我還是會認真把我想要講的講完。我想要先提一個事情,當所有人都把所有的罪往手機上拐的時候,我要先幫手機說話,所有的3C工具都是中性的。"},{"start":10864.469,"end":10878.304,"text":"是如何使用才是問題那現在如何使用就很容易把罪推到小孩身上但是我自己有一個科技壓載的老公我們養出兩個非常會玩遊戲也非常會念書也喜歡閱讀也喜歡運動的孩子我要講的是關鍵來自於身邊的大人"},{"start":10885.171,"end":10885.331,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":10914.887,"end":10941.92,"text":"所有的部會包含教育部、文化部還有衛福部可惜今天衛福部沒有來我們會持續找衛福部開會我們如何對抗3C與其禁止3C我在總質詢的時候提出用閱讀對抗3C因為已經有非常多根據學齡前兒童的研究如果閱讀可以及早介入它可以穩定小孩的情緒陪伴小孩在學齡前就開始發展專注力還有情緒的穩定"},{"start":10942.78,"end":10944.562,"text":"關鍵是如果用閱讀對抗3C我們所能做的事情教育部、文化部、衛福部其實可以做得更多更多但我要沉重的說"},{"start":10964.139,"end":10977.763,"text":"在國教法修法之前從來沒有人認真想過為什麼台灣的學校每年買書都要用剩餘款大家有聽過這三個字嗎有剩餘款的時候我們台灣的教育部才會把錢撥給學校去買書或者是議會的議員分配款才會讓學校去買書但是一個標榜想要閱讀提升國力的台灣政府竟然從來沒有讓國家支付這個買書的錢更何況"},{"start":10989.266,"end":11017.783,"text":"閱讀這件事情在過往大家生命經驗中它是什麼如果它只是一個興趣它只是一個風化學院它從來沒有被認真被當成一個學習的方法我們如何陪伴這個世代的小孩對抗3C所以我要再一次沉重的拜託教育部、文化部還有今天沒有來的衛福部必須要一起認真去研究如何用閱讀所帶來的益處陪伴小孩對抗3C這個是第一個我非常注重的事情讓我後續也會持續工作在這個階段"},{"start":11018.823,"end":11034.237,"text":"接下來我要講身為兩個小孩的媽媽而且我是住在男生宿舍的媽媽大家知道什麼是男生宿舍嗎兩個兒子加一個宅男爸爸這樣住在男生宿舍的缺點就是當3C不得不成為大家最好的朋友我們只能夠做的是什麼"},{"start":11034.917,"end":11057.555,"text":"當我過去10年選擇只工作不上班的時候我有非常多的力氣去調整我的生活去確保我的小孩可以在我們的陪伴之下有好的生活品質但是我回到台北這10年我看到我更多的朋友他們是雙薪家庭他們甚至是三明治家庭他們上面有長輩要照顧底下還有自己的小孩要照顧還有工作的壓力要面對"},{"start":11058.175,"end":11077.82,"text":"他們不得不用3C育兒所以我完全沒有辦法去指控爸媽做錯了什麼事情對我來說爸媽是處在這個時代最無奈的一群對吧我相信大家不會反對那如果爸爸媽媽他們面臨這樣的困境或者是當他們拿出3C他們並不知道原來3C育兒會對孩子帶來這麼大大腦的傷害發展的傷害情緒的傷害的時候那誰應該要負起這個責任我不會說爸媽應該要負起這個責任"},{"start":11084.962,"end":11097.991,"text":"我會說我們台灣有終身教育司底下有家庭教育中心家庭教育中心過去長年來在做的是什麼我們曾經聽過家庭教育中心告訴我們我們要鼓勵成婚因為成了婚我們才有機會做家庭教育哈囉 不是這樣吧"},{"start":11099.492,"end":11122.948,"text":"所以對我來說家庭教育中心可以承擔更多家庭教育的責任給予爸媽支持跟協助但是家庭教育中心過去這幾年有沒有認真在面對這個議題我的認為是沒有的我們多次找家庭教育中心、中心教育司開會但我們看不到更多正向的回應所以我要再次呼籲教育部、中心教育司、家庭教育中心或者是國教署回到國教署國教署負責國中小的課程"},{"start":11123.969,"end":11146.699,"text":"在我們台灣的課程規劃當中我都先不要提到108課綱但是從來沒有人認真跟我們的孩子談學習方法彷彿把課本拿到孩子面前老師上完課孩子就會學習但是不要忘了數位時代的小孩他如果真的在0到6歲他就已經被手機佔據了他大量的學習時間他如何能夠面對一個滑也滑不動的課本"},{"start":11148.058,"end":11165.185,"text":"發布出聲音的課本沒有人教這個世代的小孩閱讀作為一種學習方法是需要學習的這句話我再講一次閱讀作為一種學習方法這個方法本身就是需要學習的在20年前就已經有科華威老師在告訴我們透過大腦認知科學"},{"start":11167.806,"end":11180.173,"text":"閱讀作為一個學習方法是需要學習的二十年過去了教育部沒有聽進去教育部沒有認真陪伴我們的孩子面對他們沒有學習方法這件事情所以我要再次強調閱讀作為一個學習方法我們刻不容緩必須要積極推動"},{"start":11184.435,"end":11184.475,"text":"陳穎 過度依賴"},{"start":11199.964,"end":11224.92,"text":"就如同過去我們在討論非常多孩子身上的議題我們都希望不要太早給孩子貼上標籤但是我想要呼應另外一件事情當我們在指責孩子的時候我們在指責父母的時候我想要問我們有沒有人要認真面對這些平台社群平台業者遊戲APP開發業者這些科技廠商你們的企業社會責任在哪裡我所有在科技業的朋友偷偷的都告訴我"},{"start":11225.64,"end":11226.481,"text":"公聽會：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":11247.137,"end":11273.072,"text":"會啦 身材有節制的人會但大部分小孩子忍不住一片一片而短影印的設計就是要驅動我們的大腦讓它留在那個地方剛剛有老師講到了多巴胺多巴胺這件事情變成了最好的工具所以我會說這些科技業者他必須也要責任在世界各國呼籲立法禁止小孩帶手機的同時他們也認真面對這些企業必須要付出的社會責任所以要呼籲台灣的政府也要積極主席再給我一分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":11274.013,"end":11274.033,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11281.228,"end":11304.593,"text":"過曝世代是最近出版的一本書大家都看過了我也看過但是我要談我們年底台灣即將出版這本《焦慮的世代》與其講過曝不如講焦慮孩子們面對的困境如同瑞玲說的我們不想被禁止可是我們想被協助我再說一次這麼多年我在做親子教育的時候我都告訴家長青少年沒有不要被你管他想要被你有理的管"},{"start":11305.666,"end":11321.043,"text":"文明的管所以這個世代的小孩他們的焦慮需要我們大人共同用理性的態度去面對他們不要再指責孩子不要再罵家長我覺得後續認真面對問題跟政府一起找出解方是我們後續大家說愛情努力的目標謝謝主席 謝謝大家"},{"start":11321.889,"end":11322.729,"text":"臺灣輔導與諮商學會秘書長發言"},{"start":11344.861,"end":11370.984,"text":"委員、各位師長、還有各位長官、還有與會的先進大家好我是桃園副導理資商學會的秘書長同時我也在高中任教所以我等一下分享的部分都會停留在一些在高中以下的觀察因為我們都會有一些連結跟接觸首先先讓大家知道一下我們的不負責任調查其實跟親子天下的調查沒有差異太大"},{"start":11371.644,"end":11389.559,"text":"通常手機的持有早就已經是很普遍但還是會隨著年齡比例上有遞減再來就是頻繁使用所謂的螢幕這件事情早就已經是生活當中的不可或缺但誠如前面的仙境講的其實少有成癮因為成癮的定義非常的嚴格"},{"start":11390.62,"end":11416.109,"text":"在我們過度依賴的狀況底下無論是我們自己或是學生甚至我們身旁的小孩7個小時以上為單位的接觸早就已經是常態接下來的部分是我要跟各位報告的是數位科技其實我們在高中以下都超級配合國教署教育部所有的政策所以我們的數位教學的融入包含著我們有平板"},{"start":11416.789,"end":11417.089,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":11439.195,"end":11451.42,"text":"再者就是家長最擔心的手機其實是要提供給小孩的e-tag就是要追蹤他到底在哪裡這些東西就反映著大家前面前輩所談的焦慮這件事情"},{"start":11452.253,"end":11480.907,"text":"再者還有一個在教育階段裡面我們會有一些共同的拓展式也因著數位平行共享的關係我們可以跨國界跨校跨網域然後可以有一些所謂的雙語教學的部分或者是國際教育甚至是校務訊息校內的同步的部分早就已經推展其中看起來我們已經得到很大的好處然後卻跟學生們或是跟我們旁邊的孩子說你不要過度使用手機其實他們是非常非常的困惑的"},{"start":11482.188,"end":11503.475,"text":"於是乎我們在校園當中可能對於數位科技的應對通常都是教授他們有一些科技的應用這個我剛剛所提了再來就是媒體識讀在課程當中也有一些鋪陳網路安全的應用一直在宣導到學生耳朵都爛了再來勢力保健我自己眼睛也壞了那怎麼樣去說服我們的學生呢"},{"start":11504.855,"end":11513.3,"text":"那可是我們另外一個觀察是手機使用在校園裡面對學生的學習的影響其實學習形態有很大的改變例如說他們偏好聲光、動態的吸引學習專注我們大概只能夠去抓15秒或者是10分鐘為單位然後讓他可以重新的再專心起來這個在教學的策略上面會有很大的變革再來他們學習的意願取決於是不是跟短影一樣精彩"},{"start":11533.012,"end":11545.524,"text":"所以老師們都要各自發展自己的魅力或者是功能跟能力讓我們可以盡量的跟得上這個世界的潮流再來就是確實如前面前輩所說學習表現也就是輸出的部分包含口說、書寫有很根本的變化現在只要100字以上學生都稱之為長文現在我們都不知道該說什麼"},{"start":11555.754,"end":11581.388,"text":"好,再來就是在不同的階段裡面會有首席的管理的部分那大家剛剛已經都已經說過了我就不再多補充但家長教養的部分確實本來從國小階段會比較多一點的配合到高中階段是他管也管不動他就說老師你就讓學生自由吧然後那個自由的結果是在校園自由反過來還問我們說那你為什麼學校裡面都沒有管他"},{"start":11582.148,"end":11608.696,"text":"我們這時候也滿頭的納悶跟問號但這些部分其實在等一下我要說的可能進入到所謂介入性輔導的階段的時候他們突然猛然發現原來他應該要多配合一點再來往下看的部分是我們得到了很多的便利但我們也因應一直以來的拉扯也就是光是管教這件事情剛剛前輩所言永遠都在那個拉扯的狀態然後學生總是會問我們說"},{"start":11611.897,"end":11625.699,"text":"老師你給我一個理由讓我現在可以不要用你如果理由是我可以吸收可以理解可以接受的話那我現在就立刻放下手機聽你上課光是上課的時候在做這樣的班級經營我們都已經疲於奔命"},{"start":11627.363,"end":11653.523,"text":"往下看的部分是其實我是輔導教師的身份我們通常如果遇到所謂的重度使用的時候辨識評估的部分我們會跟導師或者是其他任科老師有協同從他的出席、學習還有人際因應甚至是一些身心變化大家總是要看到極端值出現的時候才會發現原來他是跟手機使用有關係但是我們會認為那是果不一定是因"},{"start":11654.424,"end":11676.569,"text":"所以在介入處遇的階段裡面我們通常會透過一些校園所有人的參與來支持他怎麼支持呢除了老師們能夠去表達他有些時候對於手機使用焦慮的理解那有沒有可能可以有鬆綁的空間我的學生他就是要拿著手機他才不會發抖到無法坐在他的教室裡面上課請問大家願不願意給他他只要願意在課堂裡面上課"},{"start":11683.996,"end":11684.396,"text":"學生進入誤談中"},{"start":11699.998,"end":11717.317,"text":"談不談手機使用這件事情是焦點嗎?其實都已經不是了通常都是在他的焦慮跟他怎麼理解他自己的部分而可以有更多的梳理當然有必要的時候我們專輔人員的介入處遇的部分也會加入那我們更期待的會是親師合作"},{"start":11718.318,"end":11740.282,"text":"通常都需要有一些裡應外合還有家長教養的支持那通常不是以剝奪的部分而是能夠更多剛剛培育委員所提的更多的陪伴更多的表達理解然後更多的延伸性的如何去讓彼此之間更多的交流當然如果他真的有所謂疑似誠意需要去做其他的部分就是需要後送"},{"start":11741.912,"end":11762.815,"text":"我要說的是如果可以的話其實我們適用善用還是我們當前的政策跟方向我們也很努力的想要去追尋再來就是催化自主的部分律定各個不同條件的設定的部分那教育宣示的部分陳如剛剛前輩也所說了教長必須要去善用所謂的"},{"start":11763.616,"end":11763.896,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":11791.253,"end":11798.419,"text":"謝謝蘇盈怡秘書長因為我們有特別請台灣輔導與諮商學會請一位在校園有第一線經驗的謝謝秘書長來分享這麼多很具體的很好的建議我們下一位就是我們的校長林怡惠她是國立家科實驗高中的校長之後我們請張雅玲委員準備"},{"start":11814.192,"end":11837.894,"text":"好 敬愛的召集委員還有在座的立法委員以及我們所有的與會先進們大家好 我是佳科時中的校長林怡惠佳科時中是一所新的學校所以我們目前有小一的學生有國一的學生以及高一的新生那因為學校已有小學部、國中部、高中部所以今天能夠來這裡跟大家分享"},{"start":11838.234,"end":11838.434,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":11856.548,"end":11856.668,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":11880.478,"end":11880.498,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11899.346,"end":11920.151,"text":"高中的部分就有很大的差異有些學校其實是就像剛剛我們瑞玲同學說到了它的情形是非常的自由、自主的使用但是有些學校還是採取比較嚴格的方式一樣是集中管理和收納所以不同的學校之間就會產生不同的比較當然學生也容易在比較嚴格的規範之下會跟學校的行政或者是"},{"start":11927.873,"end":11927.893,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11945.952,"end":11960.084,"text":"這個規範的時候其實也應該要傾聽不同教育階段的學生的代表的還有家長代表的這個心聲因為原因就是可能在高中教育學習階段我們像我自己蠻常跟學生互動他們會覺得說"},{"start":11962.046,"end":11978.819,"text":"其實這個階段他們更需要的是別人對他的尊重所以他希望培養的是一個自律的能力那當然我們看到的成果是有些孩子他可以自律有些孩子他其實沒有辦法去做很好的時間管理還有手機的運用的這個"},{"start":11981.041,"end":11981.442,"text":"學生會願意去做遵循"},{"start":11999.664,"end":12020.412,"text":"我以我們自己學校的高中生為例我們學校是會利用課堂的當中會有手機的使用因為有些老師的課堂當中它就是一個數位工具的運用我們資科是一樣也有很多數位學習的工具提供學校的老師和學生在課堂中"},{"start":12021.476,"end":12021.556,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12038.844,"end":12056.869,"text":"但是我們當然也看到一些孩子因為過度的使用手機他會產生這些焦慮甚至是成癮的現象所以我第二個建議就是會希望我們也要去關注這些手機成癮孩子的這些心理需求因為其實通常他們都會有一些不同的問題像有些孩子是因為他的人際互動不好"},{"start":12063.631,"end":12089.302,"text":"所以他從手機裡面他會得到一些成就和滿足所以我覺得對於這些成癮孩子的這個這個輔導和心理的支持和關懷是我們也應該要去重視的那第三個就是我們可以發現說家長真的是會影響孩子在這個手機的使用的部分非常重要的一個關鍵因為在家庭當中很多孩子都提到說家長也是"},{"start":12090.883,"end":12106.347,"text":"實用手機的重度成癮者所以在家庭當中他們出去聚餐大家都是在滑手機所以家長會對孩子的這個未來的這個手機的一個使用的情形造成一個很大的影響所以我們怎麼樣透過親師的溝通還有這樣的一個親職教育的機會去影響我們的家長"},{"start":12114.109,"end":12123.779,"text":"從自身做起然後去放下手機跟孩子對話和陪伴是非常重要的那再來就是我覺得也是非常贊成剛剛與會大家都有提到的其實我們在108年訂定的時候其實是希望"},{"start":12130.346,"end":12144.859,"text":"教育部這個規則其實教育部也非常用心當時我有記得也有參加其中一次的會議其實是希望尊重各校因應各種不同教育階段還有不同地區的這個學校的學生的需求來"},{"start":12145.52,"end":12145.6,"text":"委員會：完整會議"},{"start":12166.149,"end":12166.169,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12181.628,"end":12194.255,"text":"這個教育及文化委員會可以辦理這樣的一個公聽會其實在今天我就是聽到了很多不一樣的聲音所以我也非常的可以帶回去給其他的教育先進夥伴們分享因為我們也期待說透過這樣的一個對話凝聚共識讓手機成為孩子的一個正向學習的一個"},{"start":12202.699,"end":12207.782,"text":"機會和一個學習的工具然後但是我們孩子能夠像剛剛說的找到他學習的意義感和生活的意義感然後進而能夠在他的學習當中有樂趣然後在校園生活當中透過學習這個手機的一個正確使用然後有很好的一個發展那在這邊還是非常感謝有這個機會能夠來跟大家做分享"},{"start":12230.698,"end":12241.177,"text":"最後我也特別講說我們孩子說當我們可以在放學的時候放下手機然後一起去打球也是一個很快樂的一個學習生活謝謝"},{"start":12244.213,"end":12244.973,"text":"下一位是張雲軒教授請準備"},{"start":12270.681,"end":12284.693,"text":"謝謝主席今天也非常高興可以跟大家剛剛聽了非常多先進前輩的不同的意見我想我就發表一下我自己簡單的看法就是說在疫情之後聯合國兒童基金會其實也發佈了一系列的一些報告來講說這個疫情"},{"start":12287.175,"end":12312.825,"text":"之後我們的兒童的焦慮、憂鬱、注意力缺失、種種的一些問題都逐漸升高那這件事情是一個全球性的問題,不是只有單一國家的問題那其實呢,也有非常多,剛才大家也提了有非常多的報告去強調說現在的孩子可能深度的思考、還有專注力逐漸削弱然後他們可能已經習慣快速的瀏覽大量的資訊,不再依賴長期的記憶力那這對學習上面的確是有一些影響"},{"start":12314.165,"end":12334.312,"text":"同時他們也有提到像美國科技社會學家丹娜波伊德她有強調說青少年透過社交媒體來進行自我表達和身份的建構他們更傾向讓資訊的流動我想這大家應該非常的有感受以前我們的資訊是從媒體、從記者這邊來可是後來都是來自於很多的自媒體個人都開始是成為一個資訊的貢獻者"},{"start":12336.548,"end":12362.22,"text":"這也對我們的整個社會也帶來一個很大的挑戰所以我覺得我自己想要特別的來去強調一件事情因為其實剛剛有老師也有強調就是說有些學生他其實也很想要去控制可是好像有點控制不好可是他也很挫折在這個過程中他其實也是非常的挫折我自己想要分享一個案例就是說我自己是三個小孩的媽媽其實我小孩現在八年級"},{"start":12363.424,"end":12387.595,"text":"他自己跟我講我是我們班上唯一幾個沒有手機的他到現在還沒有手機對但我必須說我沒有限制他不可以有手機喔我們他其實在小學二年級他就開始使用電腦因為他是自學生他小學二年級的時候還是自學生那他現在已經回到體制了在那個升學的學校念書這樣子"},{"start":12388.935,"end":12414.367,"text":"那時候呢他其實非常的沉迷於在打電腦那時候也沒有那麼多手遊嘛然後就非常沉迷在打線上遊戲然後後來呢他也非常喜歡玩各種卡牌啊活動啊就是一直不停的去花錢燒錢那基本上我們就尊重你就是因為這是你的零用錢你覺得你很想要你確定了你要把你的錢投資在這裡那他就確定了然後後來我就發現到欸你怎麼有時候後五年級的時候被我發現而且是老師也發現你怎麼清晨四點的時候你在線上"},{"start":12415.367,"end":12435.34,"text":"你怎麼半夜12點的時候你還在線上好那我們就說那如果這樣子因為我們一個重要原則嘛健康是非常重要的事情那你為什麼因為你就花很多錢啊投資在這些線上遊戲啊那所以你就因為有些是靠時間累積嘛你才可以升級等等的那我就找他來聊這件事情我就說如果這樣使用的話好像違反了我們最終的一個原則叫做健康"},{"start":12436.181,"end":12436.661,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12462.571,"end":12483.444,"text":"但他一直都沒有提出來因為他對他自己也不是非常的相信那我想講這件事情其實就是說其實我覺得當然這個世界的趨勢一直不停的在做很多的變化那其實各國都有一些相關的控制所謂的控制跟管制但我還是希望可以回到一個更民主因為我們還是希望可以兒童可以來參與表達他自己的一些想法跟意見所以"},{"start":12483.744,"end":12508.933,"text":"是不是可以在一個框架之內呢就是說我們還是要尊重不影響課堂使用因為你可能一直在滑手機啊聲音啊傳資訊影響到別人的隱私啊等等的我們可不可以在一個框架之下讓每一班的孩子都有機會去建立一個屬於手機的使用規範因為像我的小孩子第二個小孩他後來四年級的時候他們班上就有討論這件事情因為自學生更自由嘛大家可能"},{"start":12509.733,"end":12538.427,"text":"那老師的確造成了一些影響所以老師後來就是談了一個手機的規範之後同學們就follow就是他們在課堂上面絕對不會用手機只有在整個學校結束之後為了要跟爸爸媽媽聯繫上車的地點等等他們才會使用手機所以我自己會希望說我們可以討論一個收集大家的意見討論一個框架出來然後在這個框架裡面是不是可以還是可以讓各班去各地來因時制定自己的版本那最後我也想要再提也是一樣是我兒子的案例其實在暑假期間我就有看到說"},{"start":12539.528,"end":12539.628,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12556.223,"end":12572.575,"text":"他只能去上網他上網才可以找到人可以跟他一起玩不然他真的很無聊那他不會想跟爸爸媽媽玩嗎那其實這件事情我覺得是一個我們也必須注意的他到底有沒有機會去可以跟別人連結剛剛校長有提到說是不是可以去打籃球"},{"start":12573.275,"end":12573.315,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12588.95,"end":12613.382,"text":"現在學生的真實樣貌所以我自己會去思考就是說我們有沒有在課堂的空間裡面我們是不是可以調整課程的份量等等有一些空間讓他可以去跟人進行真實的互動真實的連結進行更多的社交練習因為這個對他來說未來是非常重要因為他總是要出社會跟別人做社交溝通嘛所以這個東西其實是非常非常重要的那最後呢"},{"start":12615.011,"end":12637.321,"text":"我想要提醒一件事情就是說其實美國在一個叫Peter Gray的一個心理學家也非常非常的有名他在2011年的時候就有關注到美國自殺率暴增的一個問題然後他就開始去推測他覺得遊戲時間減少也是一個原因所以我自己會認為說我們現在可能在家長的教育上面從出生開始"},{"start":12639.122,"end":12664.565,"text":"就要讓他開始建立有更多戶外大肢體跟人互動練習的一些機會而不是說從小我們可能家長就會直接擺了一個手機只要他 因為這個我覺得是社會大家一起來努力的啦就是說不管是教育部也好或是衛福部也好大家其實都要一起來努力因為其實現在大家只要聽到我現在常常在那個臉書啊或是Trade上面看到很多你們家長小朋友出了聲音之後就被拍上網然後就開始"},{"start":12665.686,"end":12665.706,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12694.151,"end":12694.331,"text":"張雅玲委員"},{"start":12725.853,"end":12741.948,"text":"主席、委員、教育部的官員、在場專家學者跟教師還有家長代表我是國立成功大學老年學研究所的老師我本身也是臨床心理學家在場可能有人會想說老年學為什麼會在"},{"start":12745.051,"end":12746.311,"text":"不好意思,這邊可能小聲一點,因為聽不到他的聲音"},{"start":12774.68,"end":12778.584,"text":"首先跟大家稍微介紹一下網路成癮防治學會我們其實已經成立了10年我們創會的理事長還有榮譽理事長、柯教授也在現場我們學會在推動網路成癮防治的部分主要有這些項目我們在這個路上其實已經有10年的時間"},{"start":12799.562,"end":12799.582,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12823.72,"end":12823.9,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12844.873,"end":12863.71,"text":"國度使用這個手機的部分它其實會影響或是delay我們的這個神經元之間的連結的一個發展所以在功能連結區的部分那有關執行功能的部分就是在前額頁前額頁會影響到我們的邊緣系統邊緣系統就是跟情緒反應是有關聯性的所以"},{"start":12864.651,"end":12875.559,"text":"大家在這幾年可能會看到說越來越多的孩子可能在手機沒有的時候或者是說螢幕3C產品被拿走的時候他為什麼會有這些的情緒控管的這些調節的問題那這些我們從神經影像學的神經心理學的這個角度來探討這樣子"},{"start":12883.345,"end":12885.126,"text":"網路成癮者在大腦特定區域前額頁與籌賞系統與籌賞系統有關係在這些功能尚未發展的過程中不斷被手機單向性影響"},{"start":12905.1,"end":12928.697,"text":"在知性功能的減弱還有所以就會導致他們自我控制跟決策能力的下降那在大腦活動的這些變化在特定網路就是在認知控制跟籌賞相關網路這邊的這個互動密切是有關係的所以我們在這個學者的研究報告裡面其實可以看到說尤其青少年在這個發展尚未完成的過程當中"},{"start":12930.278,"end":12952.352,"text":"會影響到他們的這個發展那功能的連結性會變少那當然就會影響到他們的認知功能跟行為的這個控制所以其實剛剛有提到說因為我們教育部在2019年開始有這個中小學的這個手機管理的指引可是我們整個世界在2020年開始其實就遇到COVID-19所以在這幾年這些的孩子其實"},{"start":12953.493,"end":12953.553,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":12975.802,"end":12983.497,"text":"6歲之前其實神經元的這個連結發展其實是6歲之前開始在做修剪的一個發展那在6歲之後"},{"start":12985.993,"end":13012.224,"text":"在知情功能的這個發展是最晚的就是大概到成人期甚至現在可能有delay的現象所以在他們的這個自我控制能力尚未發展完成的時候我們選會其實是建議從我們的研究其實也發現到說他們的自律能力其實是不是很好的那在這個部分不管從學校從家長的角度就是大人的世界我們怎麼樣先藉由我們的外"},{"start":13012.864,"end":13016.086,"text":"我自己本身也是雙寶媽,也住在男生宿舍所以孩子從幼稚園開始就不斷地接受網路資訊因為遇到疫情的關係那我就去跟他討論說"},{"start":13038.812,"end":13059.937,"text":"應該說他到了小學之後就是現在班班有平板嘛那需要去上網路然後去使用這個電腦相關的這樣部分所以我的方式是會去跟他討論因為這是學校必須要求他們要用這樣子的一個學習方式然後我慢慢的從這個所謂他律的部分他律就是家長的部分然後去協助他然後去"},{"start":13061.117,"end":13063.059,"text":"跟他討論說學校的使用、電腦的使用必須大概要多久那他可不可以去自己提出來假設說20分鐘那20分鐘他怎麼樣在教學平台上面去進行學習然後他能不能去做到這樣子自我控制的限制時間這樣子"},{"start":13083.796,"end":13088.9,"text":"我自己的研究也發現螢幕學習與紙本學習的確造成了孩子們的注意力下降還有學習能力、記憶力等等之類的"},{"start":13097.987,"end":13098.287,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":13118.806,"end":13119.766,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":13139.094,"end":13162.781,"text":"教育部是不是有必要針對國家建立學生手機使用指引我們學會的看法是合理手機使用的時間和定期篩檢相關的對象另外再來就是建立成立跨部會的國民數位健康政策小組然後來進行相關的人員防治的訓練謝謝"},{"start":13166.757,"end":13189.41,"text":"謝謝我們張雲軒副教授提供專業上的分析跟最後政策上的建議再來就是因為已經超過12點了我們今天還有最後一位也是我們唯二的青少年代表而且他是唯一的一個高中生以下的代表那個劉軒瑞同學也是台灣EDU教育協會的成員請發言"},{"start":13195.395,"end":13210.892,"text":"各位委員好,各位先生好,我是來自嘉義高中的劉軒瑞,也是目前場上唯一的高中生我可以提供大家的一些建議,就是我根據我和我同學他們所集合的一些建議來做一下報告"},{"start":13214.136,"end":13237.174,"text":"好,那在當今的數位時代,手機已經成為學生生活中不可或缺的一部分。隨著科技的發展,科技部也有調查說,高中職生約有99%擁有手機,而國中生也有91%擁有手機,這個比例是非常高的。那不管是在資源的獲取還是日常管理,其實手機都是一個很重要的一部分。"},{"start":13237.955,"end":13260.799,"text":"好,那再來就是學校的部分學校其實在手機管理的方面分成我大約分成三種模式第一個是完全自主管理就是上課期間以及下課期間完全開放給學生自行管理手機然後第二個是半自主性管理就是你在上課期間你需要把你的手機交到教室後方的手機袋裡面然後就是"},{"start":13263.92,"end":13291.961,"text":"下課期間可以使用以及午休休息期間可以使用但是你上課期間不得使用然後最後是完全的統一管理就是學校統一收手機然後上課以及下課完全都不能使用其實剛剛前面有講到就是過度的限制反而會引起學生的逆反心態就是他們會去欺騙市長說我今天沒有帶手機但是其實我的手機放在我的書房裡面我其實手機有放在我的口袋裡面這樣子或是交備用機之類的狀況都會出現"},{"start":13295.084,"end":13305.515,"text":"在過度收手機在校外的時候也可能會說那我要把我上學期間那個時間我要把它玩回來那就會在放學期間過度使用手機"},{"start":13308.34,"end":13326.19,"text":"學生反映說,如果我完全控制手機,我就沒辦法在下課期間或是午教期間對我有興趣的議題去做一些收選的動作接下來是手機作為學習的助力這部分"},{"start":13326.73,"end":13347.913,"text":"好,那可能很多人有疑問就是說可能家長就有疑問說我每次看到你拿手機然後你就沒讀書之類的事情都會發生我相信很多家長都會有這種疑問但是其實我想告訴的是因為家長可能沒有知道說其實手機還有網路很發達你可以利用手機去在一些教育平台上面去做一些"},{"start":13348.653,"end":13348.813,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":13362.929,"end":13384.489,"text":"還有一個點是有一些APP可以使學生自己記錄自己的讀書時間當你開啟那個APP的時候你的手機可以顯示在你幫你記錄而你也不能跳出去去使用其他的APP如果你跳出去的話你要去暫停你的讀書時間"},{"start":13386.07,"end":13394.881,"text":"所以其實這個也是一個家長或是老師蠻好去看到說學生你到底讀了多少書那你自己使用手機的情況還有時間到底是多少"},{"start":13398.837,"end":13427.59,"text":"接下來就是手機使用指南的說明必要性然後第一個就是也是前面有講到就是假訊息的部分因為現在網路上假訊息就很多嘛那手機使用指南也應該要去提到說幫助學生去判別假訊息這部分還有增加他的媒體素養然後第二點就是預防手機成癮就是如果學生花費大量時間在社交媒體和娛樂上面就很容易陷入什麼手機成癮之類的"},{"start":13428.61,"end":13442.766,"text":"那應該是要鼓勵他們去培養多方面的興趣把手機變成一個他學習的一個工具而不是一昧的去用社交媒體還有可能打遊戲之類的就是要去鼓勵他們去培養多方興趣這樣子"},{"start":13445.629,"end":13470.451,"text":"然後還有一點很重要就是區分想要與需要就是你在什麼時候你是需要使用手機像是以我高中為例我們可能就會有學生與老師的一個班級群組那還有可能還有google classroom之類的就是老師會在上面直接發可能我今天的功課是怎麼樣那你回家你要寫什麼東西那如果你沒有上去看的話你就會不知道"},{"start":13471.653,"end":13497.174,"text":"對,所以相對來說這個就是一個必要就是你必要去看這個東西然後了解到你自己的學習狀況然後還有老師所發布的事情那想要的話也是大概就是社交媒體與娛樂這兩種方面好,那還有前面講到的就是也可以去建議說訂定一些學習資源平臺就像前面說的軍意教育平臺還有什麼Pokemon之類的"},{"start":13497.954,"end":13522.27,"text":"讓學生可以去多方面的了解到我有這個平台可以去使用那我可以去怎麼使用它我可以怎麼去幫助到我的學習最後是手機的管理應該回歸到學生在使用上找到平衡重點不是在全面禁止管理全面禁止應該是想要培養學生的良好時間管理能力還有自我管理能力對 這個才是重點"},{"start":13522.83,"end":13545.426,"text":"而不是一直禁止說你不能用手機你在這個時候你不能用手機之類的所以最重要還是時間管理以及自我管理那這一代學生無法避免手機和網路的影響那應該是要教導我們說如何合理的使用手機就像是剛剛前面有說到的"},{"start":13547.17,"end":13572.152,"text":"就是不能完全禁止,我們不是不想要被完全禁止,我們只是想要被合理的禁止這一部分好,那最後看來,就是手機使用是已經對於現代學生的生活和學習已經深深植入了重點是要教導我們怎麼分配時間提升美理素養,避免成癮,還有發展自我管理的能力這項手機不僅能作為學習的工具,也能避免成為妨礙成長的障礙"},{"start":13576.667,"end":13578.748,"text":"教育部資訊及科技教育司司長吳穎田"},{"start":13602.301,"end":13620.074,"text":"主席還有在場的委員還有各位包含是剛才有學生、家長、教師還有在第一線的這些實際的輔導人員在與會的先進大家好那剛才在聽了第二個階段之後其實應該是"},{"start":13622.315,"end":13644.661,"text":"綜合來講其實手機成癮它是一個非常複雜的議題那近年來有越來越多的一個科學證據開始去讓我們不得不多再更重視這個問題那教育部在5年多前其實也已經早就開始著手在做這些包含定相關的一個使用原則包含我們有一些各個單位的一些作為"},{"start":13645.621,"end":13671.23,"text":"但是事實上我們需要的是與時俱進因為五年前的環境跟現在是不同的所以各位所給的這些非常寶貴的建議我們都把它記錄下來然後我們會帶回去研議我們會比較希望是透過這樣的一個機會那我們有機會來凝聚大家的一些共識然後做更好的一個社會溝通"},{"start":13672.851,"end":13691.932,"text":"除了這個辦法本身之外一些相對應的一些配套措施比如說家長這方面的一個家庭教育還有包含是很多跟學生之間怎麼樣有更多的一個溝通等等我想這個都是我們可能得要用比較有系統的方法來去思考"},{"start":13692.372,"end":13710.634,"text":"然後也非常謝謝剛才的學生代表提供了非常好的這樣子一個觀點包含是這一些學生為什麼手機成癮的根因所以從根因到後面我們怎麼樣去根據這些根因然後去整個配套的去想所以"},{"start":13711.695,"end":13729.04,"text":"大概這些我們都會把它帶回去教育部我們來做更好的研議那最後一個點我要稍微說明一下就是剛才就是輝金委員有提到的有關於家長的一個數位教學指引那的確是在我們今年在8月底所發布的"},{"start":13729.94,"end":13756.743,"text":"這個指引本身比較是針對就是跟家長溝通現在整個學習的一個趨勢改變跟學校裡面做的數位學習那僅有少部分的一個內容提到比較是跟手機跟這些載具的使用相關的那會後我們也會把委員們給的這些很好的一個建議包含很好的一個資源我們一併納入指引的修改以上我大概做以上的謝謝"},{"start":13760.297,"end":13781.17,"text":"謝謝我們的司長 因為你是主管資訊及科技教育司的吳司長他的回應我想首先非常謝謝大家百忙中而且還有從嘉義更遠的地方來的我覺得對今天的公聽會的主題因為原本我們辦公室想了很久我們主題要叫什麼"},{"start":13781.81,"end":13782.35,"text":"後來決定叫《過曝世代、手機成癮與校園學習》"},{"start":13802.324,"end":13816.542,"text":"是大家看到數位學習的力量跟台灣不能夠落後可是這四年中間有非常多的改變因為疫情期間全世界都在做數位學習台灣不想落後可是也是這四年中間這整個手機成癮"},{"start":13820.046,"end":13820.166,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":13847.159,"end":13875.942,"text":"家長、我也在給我自己的姊妹建議發現沒有辦法我們親友的小孩說大疫前可能在國外的大疫前還會讀書、讀書館後來因為疫情國外很嚴重就不能去讀書館借書了之後小孩、中學生就沒有辦法再叫他讀書了因為他後來就會在只要有些時間就是覺得玩遊戲比較重要你家長沒辦法抗拒這個部分所以我想我們看到手機一旦"},{"start":13876.923,"end":13886.845,"text":"不管成癮的定義是什麼也許教育部要去弄清楚到底是手機成癮還是過度依賴還是沉迷那這其實應該要更精確的讓想了解的人可以自我檢視一下但是他對這樣子沉迷、過度依賴或成癮對學習跟兒少的情緒、心理健康的影響我想剛剛有我們分享很多專家的意見都很明確了不管是說"},{"start":13903.169,"end":13903.189,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13923.621,"end":13951.093,"text":"資訊完整下的決策我想當然是教育部也更應該要就是說更了解所以我想教育部那個5年前的真的是太過期了我剛講這5年發生的那個大意是2020嘛我們現在是2024嘛然後你們那個8月的這個也是還不夠就是說跟最新的研究發生所以我就簡單綜合我們今天大家的意見我想第一個很明確的跨部會大家都提到"},{"start":13951.693,"end":13980.874,"text":"就是應該要有一個兒少網路就是與安全的一個小組包含就是心理資訊科學兒少福利團體甚至檢警性別各方面因為性暴力的剛剛講拍照這個東西就是今天聽到好像是義大利還有規定不能夠在校園中拍老師同學的照片那我想當然就是說臺灣不一定要走到這一步可是這個跨部會的這個部分蠻重要的"},{"start":13981.474,"end":13981.494,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14002.506,"end":14003.927,"text":"第三個 校長老師們 包含學生某種程度希望"},{"start":14023.757,"end":14048.6,"text":"更明確的學生、校園使用手機的或者是說行動載具的相關規範準則這種政策性的部分因為我想不管是不是要修法或立法需要更多的時間可是在那個之前協助各級學校降低學生對手機的依賴對情緒跟學習的影響"},{"start":14049.621,"end":14058.048,"text":"我覺得這個部分不能讓個別的老師面對這個管理上的責任跟衝突那希望能更明確那不知道教育部這邊司長剛剛這三個希望你們去嚴義嚴靈的兩個月給我一個初步的報告好不好不是說東西要出來至少知道規劃跟進度好不好"},{"start":14069.016,"end":14069.296,"text":"教育及文化委員會"},{"start":14089.694,"end":14105.143,"text":"最後就是謝謝大家我們超過12點因為大家都講得很精彩所以今天不忍心再限制大家的時間而且大家在合理的範圍內那我們自己給自己掌聲謝謝大家一起來讓我們的教育政策可以更好謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":14108.781,"end":14122.023,"text":"對不起我最後忘了宣布那個我們依據立法院職權行使法58條公聽會10日內出席者的正反意見報告就是我們都會送交全體委員跟出席者然後公聽會的報告也會作為我們審查相關議案的參考那你們今天的書面意見發言意見那都會就是被記錄然後也會送交我們本院全體的委員跟出席的所有貴賓"},{"start":14137.526,"end":14143.783,"text":"最後再次謝謝大家因為剛講太開心了就忘了把這個一定要講的說出來謝謝我們祖密提醒 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78.124,"text":"那因為今天有邀請我們副人事長來那當然我先待會這個人關於這個機關內的勞工的保障的問題我想就請副人事長來做報告那麼我緊就我們非機關的一般勞工的這樣的"},{"start":2278.945,"end":2299.228,"text":"提升薪資水準的措施跟委員會報告第一個我們當然最近9月4號我們就提升了最低工資保障邊際的勞工薪資第二個我們希望能夠強化工會的協商實力第三個我們希望能夠促進薪資的透明化那我們具體的作為就是最近在這個跟經管會的"},{"start":2300.249,"end":2302.812,"text":"並備質詢：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會及行政院內勞工之權益"},{"start":2321.782,"end":2335.9,"text":"等等這樣子的補助以及這樣子的行政措施最後我們在這方面也希望能夠透過檢查跟輔導並行來落實勞工權益的保障"},{"start":2339.647,"end":2351.311,"text":"積極推動經濟發展,也運用包括調升最低工資、薪資透明化、透過法規鼓勵企業與勞工分享經濟成長果實等措施,來促進薪資提升。從2016年以來,經常性薪資與總薪資年增率,與最低工資成長率成正比"},{"start":2361.013,"end":2374.129,"text":"那麼在全球化經濟情勢跟產業環境的變動下如何營造有力加薪的企業環境企業發展跟勞動環境也更需要我們跨部會的協作跟同理合作我們會持續落實並滾動檢討相關的作為以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2383.999,"end":2395.761,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘練習委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案"},{"start":2411.247,"end":2412.348,"text":"10點30分,截止收案"},{"start":2429.113,"end":2450.414,"text":"你好部長好部長我想你剛剛已經講了現在在台移工已經80萬名那我們看到在台移工現在有一個很大的問題是在台灣懷孕生子這一些移工他的保障到底有沒有做到我們可以看到彰化最近爆發的這一個案例就是他"},{"start":2451.114,"end":2459.087,"text":"在僱主家殘肢你知道這個案例最後他現在情況怎麼樣嗎?政府有介入嗎?有提供什麼樣的協助跟幫忙?這個個案有追蹤嗎?有掌握嗎?沒有?兩位都不知道"},{"start":2467.247,"end":2469.029,"text":"在你們的統計裡面在台移工申請生育給付的人數每一年都提高去年來到了5687"},{"start":2493.491,"end":2506.079,"text":"但是這個部長你知道嗎在我們現在廣大的24萬多名的家世移工如果他們在台灣生子他可以領生育給付嗎?可以嗎?因為他沒有頭腦寶所以完全是被排除在外的"},{"start":2515.242,"end":2538.623,"text":"如果今天彰化被爆出來這個案例他是家事移工的身份他生了小孩政府是沒有可以提供任何生育給付跟幫忙的你認為我們這樣的制度是不是有缺漏而監察院的報告其實已經告訴你們這個部分應該要去檢討那我有看到一個報導你們曾經5月份對外講說要把"},{"start":2541.206,"end":2550.367,"text":"訂了指引之後要把生育給付家事勞工的生育給付納進來結果攀開你們現在的指引"},{"start":2551.277,"end":2572.55,"text":"一個字都沒有提消失了、被消失胎死腹中了這件事情你們有要研議嗎?有要做嗎?你們5月份有對外講喔你們這個監察院的報告也有指出來喔這個生育給付目前是24萬名的家世勞工是完全通通被排除在外的"},{"start":2573.311,"end":2593.538,"text":"結果你們現在又指引出來了又置之未提是不是又已經開始不忠說說而已委員我澄清是這樣我們的指引其實還在朝你中還沒有定案所以有沒有要加入我今天就正式問你我在試圖加入可是委員我要跟你要不要加入我覺得部長你要展現決心啊不是試圖加入啊這我要澄清"},{"start":2594.898,"end":2616.916,"text":"我們有這個想法要加入我們也在加入可是社會上有不同意見你要了解當然包括來自雇主端包括來自其他的那就要展現你的魄力跟決心啊到底勞動部的態度立場為何五月份你們是對外講說要欸講得很大聲欸那就應該要立定方向去執行啊即使有任何的困難應該要排除啊"},{"start":2623.24,"end":2646.883,"text":"我覺得我們現在政府每一年我們可以去撥2000億的預算給台電談到這一些外籍移工的問題的時候涉及到錢的時候政府就不願意多負一點責任我們永遠對弱勢就是這麼的苛刻這一些外籍移工坦白講他來到台灣他如果知道他懷孕還要來這邊做這一份工作就代表他的經濟有多困難"},{"start":2647.643,"end":2675.298,"text":"他賺幾個月也好那我們現在說你剛剛報告的很好說我們現在對外籍移工多麼的友善去機場迎接他這種我覺得倒是不必了但是實質上的這種已經遇到問題需要幫忙的我們卻伸不出手來我們其實是沒有提供任何協助跟幫忙的那你的指引訂了一堆你認為有用嗎你今天看看你的指引喔裡面你其實也提到的都是僱主"},{"start":2676.258,"end":2702.377,"text":"跟這個仲介的責任那我想問一點就是說我們今天有這麼多的移工在臺灣勞動部的責任是什麼你們今天的報告裡面提到說你們現在只有補助桃園、彰化、高雄設置婦幼諮詢中心那我就要問其他縣市的這一些移工如果出現懷孕生產的問題他們的服務去找誰要去找誰"},{"start":2706.347,"end":2709.378,"text":"這三個中心我們是跨縣市服務的跨到哪裡?"},{"start":2710.526,"end":2736.9,"text":"比如像桃園都可以服務嗎?在宜蘭的也可以跑到桃園嗎?那他要怎麼服務?桃園會跑到宜蘭陪他去就醫喔?我跟您報告關於移工懷孕的問題我們是跟衛福部一起協作的現在他們的安置是衛福部在處理所以你們負責什麼?因為你們上面的報告提到說你們會陪同這個孕婦就是去這個就醫啊"},{"start":2737.827,"end":2755.28,"text":"委員因為我們現在的安置的費用是我們出所以你還是主管機關嘛對我們是主管機關沒錯可是移工懷孕了那我問你我問你如果今天它是在發生在宜蘭的一個移工他懷孕生產了"},{"start":2756.041,"end":2768.526,"text":"他有問題他需要服務請問你這三個桃園、彰化、高雄的婦幼諮詢中心可以提供什麼服務桃園那邊我們可以接案服務我們可以輔導他所以桃園他有服務到宜蘭、花蓮、台東"},{"start":2774.429,"end":2784.977,"text":"有,我們現在就是北東南這樣子,因為你不可能每個縣市現在都...多少?多少?有多少?服務量有多少?我不太相信桃園可以服務到宜蘭、花蓮、台東"},{"start":2789.221,"end":2805.437,"text":"是不是?其實數量還好啦沒有多到大家想像的這個部長我希望你不要這個避重就輕喔而且把一些該處理的問題就是簡單化覺得這個都還好發生在每一個懷孕移工生產對他來講他都需要他希望"},{"start":2805.937,"end":2827.452,"text":"在臺灣我們政府可以提供適度的幫忙如果你要推給衛福部你說你們是跟衛福部合作那我要知道你現在跟衛福部的機制是什麼衛福部有人會陪同移工去就醫嗎他懷孕他的安置都可以做到嗎他的安置是他寶寶是衛福部的這一個NGO那產婦的部分呢移工的部分來那個產婦的部分當然我們醫療都會我們健保都會處理啊那你的安置資源在哪裡"},{"start":2833.797,"end":2847.17,"text":"我們安置就是衛福部他會提供NGO來安置這些黑戶寶寶嗎?那你的量是夠的嗎?如果衛福部的系統很好你為什麼要在桃園、川化、高雄還要再設婦幼諮詢中心?兩件事我們在北中南這三個是我們為了當然移工懷孕的過程裡面我們當然也要輔導他"},{"start":2856.578,"end":2879.428,"text":"進入到衛福部的安置系統裡面啊是啊那你前段這個過程會做得很好嗎你才三個地點欸你現在你1到8月你安置的人數也才184人服務其實是要有究竟性、競變性的你如果連這一點你們都不肯去檢討覺得自我感覺良好我設三個北中南這樣已經很好了"},{"start":2880.268,"end":2888.314,"text":"你真的應該要到現場去看看這樣的服務是不是很好了你認為沒有檢討的空間嗎?量能是足夠的嗎?我們當然永遠都可以檢討"},{"start":2889.434,"end":2892.956,"text":"永遠都可以檢討可是呢委員我要跟您報告我們面臨來自社會各方面的意見這個不是只有移工團體的意見而已當然執政沒有那麼簡單那作為部長就是要面對問題去解決問題我也要聽副主端的意見聽我們社會其他方面的意見但是呢要守住你的立場啊"},{"start":2915.632,"end":2928.188,"text":"你是勞動部啊你應該要先站在移工的立場不是嗎你有一個主要的立場之後你去說服其他人來接受你的意見嘛要不然你對外講得那麼大聲說你這個生育津貼24萬的家事移工你們要把他納進來這個就是空談啊"},{"start":2934.156,"end":2962.776,"text":"因為你遇到問題你就退縮啊你沒有一個主要的立場啊你們在這樣子的一個情況底下你永遠踏不出第一步啊這個部長我真的要勸你你現在其實是勞動部部長這個立場你應該還是要守穩的守穩你的立場你才會有一個明確的政策方向要不然各方都有意見你沒有一個主要意見的時候各方意見來的時候什麼都不了了之這個我希望你可以好好思考這樣的一個立場跟問題謝謝"},{"start":2963.857,"end":2969.409,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝王育民委員的發言接下來請陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":2978.187,"end":2978.467,"text":"已經在進行了"},{"start":3004.029,"end":3032.386,"text":"就是說那我可不可以了解就是說我們目前也許要分幾次是不是就是你要討論的內容包括是什麼人數啦職業別啦產業類別啦還有就是說執聘的方式還是仲介的方式我可以了解一下嗎是委員我們在什麼包括業別啦人數其實都維持原來的我的這樣子的計畫沒有變化大概1000人大概以製造業為主那我們很期待的職聘呢"},{"start":3033.586,"end":3060.461,"text":"這個有沒有定一個比率?因為這是一個新的來源國,我們一直希望從上個會期就一直期待那你有定一個目標嗎?職聘的目標嗎?大概是5%為目標5%喔?現在1%?現在5%喔?為什麼我覺得說因為它是第一次進行的來源國但是部長也正是第一次,因為這次你主要是,據我了解是產業移工嘛那產業移工其實是企業界它是相對有比較多的資源啊"},{"start":3061.381,"end":3077.814,"text":"你說這個一般的僱主他可能有困難但是企業的部分他有相當資源他是可以來承接或是職聘的這樣的一工作我記得有一次溝通會議也是請職聘的還這樣長跟職聘的一個還報告說他們做得很好啊所以不怕沒搞啦,部長"},{"start":3079.162,"end":3107.692,"text":"委員真的這個齁因為是第一次來往齁我們跟印度這個來原國而且印度本身沒有職聘的這樣的系統所以我們要考量可行性啦所以先從5%開始以後可以進步好不好我們會來增加5%在醫學的統計學小於5%等於沒有我本來要跟你提出要五成一半一半啦因為你是產業移工嘛你知道我的重點是因為這是產業移工不是家庭的雇主"},{"start":3108.092,"end":3112.577,"text":"如果是有能力來做一個對口請部長還是要考慮把這個標準提高我們的遠洋漁業已經連續3年被美國勞工部列在強迫勞動清單您知道這件事嗎當然"},{"start":3125.251,"end":3144.062,"text":"那你認為這個勞動權益勞動部有沒有責任委員這方面我們跟漁業署就是農業部、漁業署我們是共同在處理這件事我要跟您報告啊遠洋漁業的管理其實是漁業署他甚至他的因為他不屬於勞基法的範圍他是屬於漁業署的一個遠洋漁工管理辦法在處在管理的我可以同意漁業署他主責啦對對對但是勞工權益還是會知道"},{"start":3153.208,"end":3157.569,"text":"我們跟他們一起協作這個漁業人權行動方案已經從2020年開始到現在了事實上改進非常的多部長你看右邊這個圖啊這個也是我們要檢討我們應該要加強向美方澄清金資被扣欸工時過長欸船上生活條件惡劣不衛生欸生活照顧還有肢體虐待欸"},{"start":3179.555,"end":3188.858,"text":"那靠港 因為大部分沒有辦法靠港休息等等 欸這個都最嚴重的事也不過這樣而已啊我覺得那個漁業人權行動方案改善到現在 坦白講這些情況已經幾乎都沒有了可是它還列在這裡啊 這連續三年還沒有拿掉啊"},{"start":3196.441,"end":3206.365,"text":"這是我們必須應該要主動去跟美方來澄清油稅的問題你覺得我們的這個遠洋漁工沒有這樣的狀況你應該是請美國把這個名單拿掉我們正要做這個努力我們跟農業部要一起做這個努力很不名譽的事情改善外籍這個漁工血汗的困境漁業署他是有提一個漁業與人權行動計劃他當然他就提到說勞動部也有相關的權責"},{"start":3223.652,"end":3237.996,"text":"那他也提出了一些改善策略那但是當中剛剛你有報導一個1955專線我就這個部分我有幾個問題我想就逐一跟您討論第一個移工在海上工作他有辦法打這支電話嗎他有訊號嗎"},{"start":3241.998,"end":3259.933,"text":"他一年到頭都是在船上欸他能打這支電話嗎1955委員這個遠洋移工當然是比較困難啦不過我們現在有提供裝設Wi-Fi嘛這也是所謂這個漁業人權行動法案裡面一個重點那個普及率OK嗎像現在普及率比較沒有那麼全面"},{"start":3260.854,"end":3277.205,"text":"甚至比較還算低啦可是這個就牽涉到是衛星那個我們農業部都有在這個計畫當中就是看怎麼樣是用衛星通訊的方式來克服因為那另外其次就是說1955對於近海的移工是OK的"},{"start":3277.785,"end":3298.911,"text":"他們都可以打這個電話不過移民署既然把這個放上去了,就可以用嘛這是第一個第二個那個移工跟僱主我們只要想一下,他們是住在同一條船上那我如果被你虐待我敢打電話嗎?我有機會打電話嗎?我可以躲起來打電話投訴嗎?你想像那個情境如果這些都是來自這個"},{"start":3300.211,"end":3319.599,"text":"是當然委員這個就是我們要去克服的問題嘛就是說我們希望也宣傳這個漁業組在這方面能夠有這怎麼克服呢?他們就住在同一條船上啊Wi-Fi的設置其實當然也是希望能夠有他們可以就近投訴啦"},{"start":3321.12,"end":3346.608,"text":"還有包括文字客服我覺得可能有機會要去了解一下這些移工他們到底遇到了什麼困難委員他們的薪資已經提升到550塊美金了這已經接近國際的水準了這是其中一項而已其實最重要是薪水啦薪水要提高啦薪水就可以忍耐被虐待喔被霸凌喔委員這個薪水都提到那麼高了坦白說你要"},{"start":3347.688,"end":3369.326,"text":"對 是坦白說這個虐待有的時候你其實去算一算也許加班費還是是不合因為你 因為遠洋去外面作業很他必須是一個好 那我往下問請問1955一年收到多少多少支這個申訴電話遠洋移工的電話有記錄嗎嗯 這我要我們再看一下 有沒有記錄多少我們的有記錄啦有沒有打成功過"},{"start":3378.106,"end":3388.211,"text":"有嗎?真的有打成功過?幾支吧?但是打了又怎麼處理?我可以知道嗎?接到電話以後你們要怎麼處理?可見應該是沒有人打成功過啦"},{"start":3396.685,"end":3409.13,"text":"記錄有派案然後也會專人去服務他很重要有母語能力的專人服務他下一個我們談一下USG因為不久前勞動部的頒獎典禮有一個走秀"},{"start":3412.871,"end":3440.016,"text":"那當然基本上代表勞動部也是非常重視這個ESG推廣跟落實那部長您看一下那ESG的那個分類表它有幾類請問勞動部您是注重在哪個部分是環境圈、環境面、社會面還是公司治理面我們當然是S當然是叫S的社會面那我想請問一個原則請問部長這個僱主守法遵守勞動法令這是不是最基本的ESG的這個"},{"start":3441.737,"end":3452.563,"text":"當然當然這是最基本嘛那我們看看事實上你們的獎成對象是不是符合這個基本要求請部長稍微看一下這個資料這是審計部的報告勞動部2023年所補助的事業單位有200家前一年曾經違反勞動法令3次以上總共領了將近5000萬還有5家違法10次以上153家2023年持續違法"},{"start":3470.074,"end":3483.227,"text":"第2個更嚴重,122家連續3年都違法但是還是繼續領你們的就業基金,你們小金庫嘛,小金庫的補助其中有16家違法20次,最高高達74次,而且有97家是在2023年持續違法"},{"start":3491.994,"end":3520.172,"text":"啊你把小金庫給這些有違法那個勞動法令的企業界啊那個ESG有道得走嗎是委員這個我們必須檢討我們正在檢討中我認為這裡面搞不好有人情啊熟悉啊就是造發這樣是不對的啊你有這個基金你要獎勵的對象跟不該獎勵的對象要分得很清楚而且還有一個點齁就第三件事情多數計畫都去規範那失業單位違反勞動法令清潔重大者"},{"start":3520.612,"end":3545.875,"text":"不予補助你們是有這條規定可是你們並沒有說什麼叫做違反這個勞動法令情節重大你沒有做定義啊所以你等於違反累犯照零補助啊這個違反公平公正原則那這個部分怎麼辦這個法令怎麼辦我們會就這個做一些比較清楚的規範然後我們會做檢討然後我們把這個相關的資料送給委員好嗎"},{"start":3547.296,"end":3568.303,"text":"這個要很具體啦,就是說你違反勞動法令那你還要補助,你要隔多久,看他的表現一個月內這是基本的東西嘛,這是我們任何領域基本的概念勞動部的小金庫養慣老闆,這個不行啊這不是小金庫啦不管這樣你還是把錢撥出去的嘛,而且這個裡面很清楚是是是好,謝謝委員,謝謝"},{"start":3571.974,"end":3591.315,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭芝委員發言接下來請林月琴委員發言好 謝謝主席麻煩我們的行政院人事行政總處的副人事長副人事長"},{"start":3601.151,"end":3615.048,"text":"行政院大概在111年大概就是幫軍工調薪到4%那今年要再調4%那今年的調薪除了本縫以外還有專業家級也是相當幅度有去調整"},{"start":3615.908,"end":3637.44,"text":"那預計114年還要再調3%而這次25年來首次連續兩年調整我覺得在人力荒的狀態裡邊這的確事實上是很需要的因為很多工作人員也是面臨到請不到人、留不住人的問題所以我覺得本席非常肯定的是行政院的這樣的一個積極作為"},{"start":3641.107,"end":3655.609,"text":"可是今年的調薪大家都很開心誰不開心呢只有公職的醫事人員不開心為什麼調薪的結果以公務員的檢期值等來看的話公立的醫療機構跟公立學校的專業佳績"},{"start":3657.335,"end":3676.21,"text":"比其他我們的專業人員還要低那所以想問一下覺得臺灣社會應該沒有人會去否定醫事人員的一個專業而且在整體的公務人員專業家籍裡邊可是醫事人員卻是最低的這有一些歧視的問題可是想問一下為什麼會這樣這個部分我瞭解衛福部在檢討中他們9月底好像有開過會我們會追蹤這個問題"},{"start":3689.076,"end":3708.049,"text":"公職的醫事人員不是只有專業家級整個原本定就已經比其他職類低那甚至在這次在調薪的時候也會看到專業家級整個的幅度上其他職類的條幅事實上是在6.2%到12.8%可是公職醫事人員為什麼只有4%所以"},{"start":3714.932,"end":3738.02,"text":"想問是醫事人員專業家級比人家低今年大家都在調整專業家級的時候調整的幅度還是比別人低請問是什麼原因那是對醫事人員我們的衛福部沒有意見嗎所以當時人總在討論醫事人員這種薪資的時候到底衛福部針對這樣專業家級如此低衛福部沒有表示意見嗎"},{"start":3740.475,"end":3765.661,"text":"因為剛好調薪的時候那個階段我們正好要檢討那個專業價值表表一並表二所以這個有些你會覺得說有些為什麼比較高那是因為剛好他的專業價值表表一並表二的關係那我先問你衛福部有表當時有表示意見嗎是你們人種不同意還是怎樣為什麼從前面就已經低然後真的在調薪的時候跌上來還是最低的"},{"start":3767.346,"end":3789.992,"text":"因為如果是通案調整待遇大概就是我們有一個待遇審議委員會那大概這個部分我們力量大概沒有要衛福部我們大概要財主單位還有專家學者來討論那這個部分我覺得COVID-19的時候醫療人員、醫事人員對我們來講都非常的重要可是卻對他們來講最不友善"},{"start":3792.413,"end":3815.287,"text":"而且公立學校的護理師的專業家級又比其他單位的醫事人員少這是對公立學校的護理師而言他事實上是40班以下聘一個人我們現在以一個學校2500的話他大概1000人只有一個護士他要去這樣的照顧別那學生上學裡邊如果碰到任何狀況"},{"start":3816.167,"end":3817.948,"text":"請勞動部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」"},{"start":3845.769,"end":3869.922,"text":"進一步的反應嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告就是說那個衛福部在9月底邀請包括教育部也邀請一起在研究這個在討論9月30號不是開會了嗎?有開會有衛福部那開會的結果是什麼?教育部也在研議看要怎麼調整那衛福部呢?也是啊"},{"start":3871.021,"end":3880.994,"text":"也是要等那在等什麼時候呢所以同樣是護理師在衛生所跟在學校要做的事情一樣每個月我們的學校護理師專業家級的"},{"start":3883.243,"end":3911.752,"text":"竟然會比衛生所護理師少一千多元他們做事情有不一樣嗎他們事實上是一比一千個孩子那怎麼會是這樣的比例上還會是相差這樣的他的專業家境所以本席強烈建議在制定相關規則的時候不是坐在辦公室裡邊去想像那要做這個工作要到工作現場去看一下整個的工作忙碌狀況而且這種差別待遇行之有年"},{"start":3912.392,"end":3940.735,"text":"一直以來都是這樣對我們學校護理師他又是肩負我們學校孩子的健康很重要的一個靈魂人物那所以學校護理師我不知道教育部如果衛福部、教育部都沒有表示意見還是真的是人總不採納今年1月4號人總公佈的全國軍公教人員的待遇知己要點同時也大幅度調整各類職種的專業佳績"},{"start":3942.586,"end":3969.846,"text":"1月10日,全國學校護理師就提出了抗議來做聲明可是似乎好像是沒有人去理會因為因應醫院的護理師留任的難題衛福部還有一些配套措施夜班加急、繁重津貼直接撥付給護理師同時又降低護病費的一個獎勵金給醫院用盡一切努力就是要留任可是人力就是資源所以我不知道"},{"start":3970.586,"end":3997.237,"text":"我懷疑人總是不是缺乏這樣的認知現在是到處搶人的時代那怎麼會讓我們的護理師雙重受到尤其是學校護理師受到雙重的歧視你說這口氣你覺得今天學校護理師怎麼會吞得下去他比公務人員低他比我們的衛生所的人員又低那他本來醫事人員整個整個就是低的學校護理師又更低"},{"start":3999.089,"end":4014.935,"text":"對,所以我們因為有這樣像委員剛剛提的有疑情的反應所以我們就督促就要求衛福部趕快來處理好,就希望人總可能要去考慮因為公職醫事人員扣除掉我們的法醫、西醫、中醫師跟亞醫師在公立醫療"},{"start":4016.155,"end":4038.462,"text":"提供的特定的那個薪資加給的制度那其他醫事人員都沒有也就是說我剛剛講的法醫、西醫、中醫師跟亞醫師都有另外的薪資的加給制度反而其他醫事人員沒有所以只能靠這個專業加給來拿到他應有的一個薪資比較合理的待遇那這些人數已經達到28.4萬那所以這個薪資呢"},{"start":4044.38,"end":4066.646,"text":"因為他的工作比別人多可是薪資領的又比私立醫院低所以希望能夠透過一些薪資的加給制度來增加留人的那當然我們也期待不要漏掉我們的護理師所以我一上任之後就接到全國公職護理師對本案的陳情那接獲後我們也跟"},{"start":4067.566,"end":4079.115,"text":"邀請全國一市聯合會跟相關政府部門來做討論包括教育部跟衛福部他們都是同意那現在就是等人總點個頭所以我剛才問你9月30號開會"},{"start":4083.759,"end":4100.072,"text":"衛福部跟教育部跟我表達意見都是他們同意、他們支持那現在就是人總這邊到底什麼時候會去開帳的會是不是可以在這邊也可以去承諾說可不可以把公職醫事人員整體的專業家級提升到能夠追上警察嗎?"},{"start":4101.173,"end":4124.823,"text":"委員如果衛務部還有教育部的方案上來報導行政院是由人總處理的話我們也趕快來問一下什麼時間因為我從上個會期就已經針對這個部分表達強烈的因為他們的確一越長年以來都是對他們來講是一種很大的啟示是不是我們下去以後我們趕快去督促促請那個衛務部跟教育部趕快所以可不可以給我們一個時間"},{"start":4126.957,"end":4149.223,"text":"因為我們等了蠻久了我不曉得他們要作業時程要多久啦我們請他趕快回應委員您的要求好 那你就要去要求衛福部跟教育部因為錢是你們管是不是一個月能夠召開下一次的會議9月30號開可不可以11月的時候再度召開會議"},{"start":4151.195,"end":4167.59,"text":"現在如果說衛福部有方案呢他其實就直接報行政院就不一定要開會等報院以後我們再會相關機關意見回來我們就可以簽辦所以最後我還是呼籲不要把公務人員的服從的素養當成事實上是可以忽視公務人員"},{"start":4168.484,"end":4183.093,"text":"的一個新生的理由還是要去看重學校護理師或各類醫事人員真的專業家級要給他拉起然後對於醫事人員跟其他的人員事實上是同等的重要謝謝"},{"start":4186.855,"end":4202.238,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的質詢那等一下請我們那個夫人市長就是會後跟相關單位聯繫一下月琴委員要的資料就跟他們通知一下好不好好好謝謝接下來請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席謝謝各位委員官員我也想請何部長請何部長"},{"start":4217.37,"end":4242.231,"text":"部長好你好今年的10月10號叫做世界心理健康日那今年的主題是職場心理健康所以全世界的國家都發現說在疫情後啊當然疫情的時候就感到大家的情緒壓力是增加的可是疫情後都紛紛要返回職場那現在也有很多空缺都還補不上所以就顯示"},{"start":4243.212,"end":4260.028,"text":"這個是一個local的數據臺灣民眾常見的精神疾患的分佈大概憂鬱、焦慮是在30到45歲盛行率最高平均每四位就有一位青壯世代也從我們就診的記錄看到說精神醫療的使用提升從105到111年7.4%增加到9.5%成長率達到27%"},{"start":4266.474,"end":4284.153,"text":"那這群人其實跟我們勞動部所關心的族群非常重疊的就是525萬人的青壯世代所以響應今年這種職場心理健康許多團體我等一下會舉很多團體做出來的問卷有一個臺灣心理健康聯盟"},{"start":4285.334,"end":4312.226,"text":"發布的職場心理健康高達76%的比例認為工作壓力危害心理健康也呼籲希望可以倡導彈性工時給這樣職場的爸媽還有輕職假等等的議題這些都超過9成的民眾支持我相信部長跟我一樣應該都在這76%裡面嘛對是不是工作壓力有點危害到心理健康是吧好那我想問一下你知道貴部"},{"start":4313.486,"end":4325.56,"text":"衛福部他有推出一個15到45歲他今年也是因應這個主題所以他推出了一個擴大心理健康支持方案免費有三次的心理健康諮詢"},{"start":4327.099,"end":4345.759,"text":"你知道勞動部為我們廣大的勞工在職場的心理健康比如說職場霸凌等等做了什麼具體的措施嗎?我們在重建我們的預防重建中心每年可以提供6次喔6次的心理健康服務而且我們還在臉書幫他宣傳"},{"start":4348.162,"end":4366.083,"text":"你說幫衛福部宣傳?幫這個?那是我們自己的這個是從2015年開始做擴大跟67家心理諮商來合作而且我覺得做比衛福更多次因為你是每年六次他是一生三次那你知道這個方案執行的效果怎麼樣嗎?"},{"start":4368.123,"end":4374.786,"text":"需要宣傳再更多推廣因為確實從111年到112年才服務622人次太少了沒有比較沒有傷害我放兩個slide給你看這邊是另外一個關於臺灣職場心理健康問卷的調查結果他發現跟這個"},{"start":4392.013,"end":4414.428,"text":"2023亞洲心理健康指數報告發現有82%的員工有心理健康風險裡面高度的大概是35%中度大概是47%那在台灣跟亞洲的數據有點像就像我剛剛跟你講的75%的填打者都認為工作壓力對於身心健康有負面的影響所以我們簡單算一下全國如果1200萬勞工"},{"start":4417.692,"end":4425.892,"text":"75%是900萬可能會有心理諮詢的需求但是我們退一步講一半就好了所以可能是600萬好我們來看你的數據"},{"start":4427.638,"end":4444.289,"text":"進三年你是編的預算還用不到預算當然我覺得你編的預算也不夠蠻少的但是你編這樣子的錢還用不到一半多一點點那你從進三年看111年239人第二年383到目前923"},{"start":4450.533,"end":4451.394,"text":"請勞動部長：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會議"},{"start":4480.593,"end":4500.79,"text":"青少年現在自殺率開始升高是不到一年他們已經服務超過兩萬九千人然後還轉介高風險就醫喔受益者超過一萬人所以他們還從裡面抓到了高風險的趕快轉到醫療機構去所以因為辦得太好這也是少數衛福部評價96%滿意度的計畫"},{"start":4504.492,"end":4521.879,"text":"滿意度好到他們擴大到45歲我也很希望勞動部可以推出一個令人有感的計畫而且你們是從2015年開始喔衛福部的族群TA這麼廣衛福部裡面有老人、有病人、有三高的人大家知道要去用"},{"start":4523.24,"end":4547.001,"text":"勞動部的職場心理健康他的族群就是勞動部這麼簡單結果勞動部的人居然不知道也沒有人去用這件事情要不要跟他們學習一下當然當然我上任以後我有發現這個事所以我先請同仁幫忙在勞動部自己的官網、臉書也幫忙宣傳這個活動因為我想主要是"},{"start":4548.202,"end":4575.723,"text":"對所謂勞工職場的所謂心理復健這個定義我想我們也不要太拘泥啦因為我們一直都會拘泥說他一定要定義他是因為工作我才能來去讓他做心理職場對你知道嗎失業的人是不能用你們的服務的失業對他現在必須要有一個工作是啊所以我覺得這是一個應該要改進的問題好我可以說一下如果我們能夠像衛福部那麼的全面性因為他可能是健保"},{"start":4576.644,"end":4579.807,"text":"我希望你可以重視今年全世界很重視的職場心理健康我也具體分享一下我們來試用這個計畫的經驗我10月初請我們辦公室同仁打到職災預防重建中心的北部勞工健康辦公室10月初打"},{"start":4605.347,"end":4629.293,"text":"他首先告訴我們說你要先經過我們一個評估評估完才可以知道說你符不符合補助這6次諮商好10月初打喔他說但是10月的評估已經全部滿了所以他給我一個時間是11月中到11月底中間的一個這個平日的早上然後就說好那你就這個時間過來評估我們評估完以後告訴你可不可以獲得後面的6次諮商"},{"start":4631.002,"end":4654.444,"text":"那評估再評估好剛剛已經講到這個心理健康是一個比較緊急的狀態你從10月初就已經約到一個11月中的時間又是規定在一個上班時間從我們之前軍人、警察自殺你就已經知道說你就不想要被長官知道當然我可以合法的說我這個預約勞動部的服務要去做心理諮商但是"},{"start":4655.645,"end":4668.61,"text":"軍人就是有這個問題警察有這個問題所以他們才做不好那他們不敢跟老闆講的話你永遠這個評估都做不到的不但預約不到很難預約而且是一個很不友善的事件這個也請你們回去檢討好嗎好下一個"},{"start":4674.01,"end":4690.415,"text":"想要講一下因為今天有一題是講到非典非典型工作者那你們呢是不是有宣示4年要投入160億去協助這些非典的工作者轉正職因為他們已經大規模的突破80萬創新高了嘛"},{"start":4693.743,"end":4717.398,"text":"是好那這邊是我幫你找出來114年你們勞動部編列的預算這個勞動部跟你們所屬的機關的公務預算還有所屬的特種基金所禁用的非典型的承染人力在人數上還有在支出的經費上你猜增加多少"},{"start":4719.758,"end":4725.684,"text":"人數是增加35人喔經費呢是增加了9000多萬9000多萬好 比較好笑的是"},{"start":4730.774,"end":4751.371,"text":"其中這個就業安定基金啊就業安定基金是最大幅度禁用非典型勞工承攬34人而且他是就業安定基金你套在安定這兩個字不是很荒謬嗎你就業安定然後你去找非典型勞工所以他光是在就業安定基金就增加了8000多萬"},{"start":4753.422,"end":4767.104,"text":"那你一方面花了這麼多錢說要降低非典型勞工協助他們轉正職一方面多編了這些錢九千多萬去增加你們勞動部自己的非典型承攬的人力你覺得這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":4770.646,"end":4798.125,"text":"我們確實真的這方面是因為我們組織內部人總在這邊我們確實就是在我們的組織內部因為我們正式人員缺乏所以就都大量禁用承攬因為我們的這個在預算緣合上面有控管我們正式緣合其實被合組的很少因為你現在也要督導每一個部門減少他們的非典勞工如果你自己都做不到"},{"start":4799.164,"end":4822.326,"text":"我承認我們是非典大戶因為委員就是我們整個政府機關都有這樣的困境就是我們在正式原額的都有被控管因為政府精簡的需要所以你去督導別人的時候別人跟你講現在一模一樣的理由你應該要怎麼辦呢是我們應該要來跟我們要跟上級長官反映啦我們要跟行政院反映這個問題那你編這麼多錢"},{"start":4825.449,"end":4847.666,"text":"這兩邊是互相抵觸的,我希望你要不要提出一個月內提出一個檢討。我們應該是這樣,我們有在,剛剛之前我也都推詢,就是包括承攬人力的薪水提升啦,這個我們是可以馬上做的,就是我們讓承攬的人力也能讓他符合所有的勞動條件,因為承攬有時候也未必是那麼"},{"start":4848.507,"end":4849.007,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就"},{"start":4864.112,"end":4888.477,"text":"改善承攬的勞動條件我也會很想要知道說你未來要怎麼協助這個越來越多你們自己勞動部裡面的這些非典勞工轉正職你們有什麼具體的做法或者目標策略非典勞工轉正職就牽涉到行政院的整個政府的這個預算源的問題這個是整個我們要必須跟行政院反應澄清"},{"start":4888.797,"end":4889.397,"text":"謝謝主席。有請我們何部長。請何部長。"},{"start":4920.285,"end":4941.099,"text":"委員好部長好部長根據《就業服務法》第55條規定申請家庭看護或是家事移工而雇主是身心障礙者時也需要繳納就業安定費一般家庭是需要繳交大概每月2000元中低跟低收入戶則是免繳"},{"start":4942.04,"end":4968.937,"text":"那所以這個部分呢也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅但是我想依照CRPD公約的精神以及障礙平權的觀點國家有責任去彌補障礙者和健常人之間的落差所以當國家無法彌補這個落差的時候那這些障礙者自力救濟去拼顧移工的時候卻反而被國家收這個障礙稅部長你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":4971.16,"end":4979.168,"text":"因為牽涉到身心障礙者本身如果他是中低收的話他當然也是免繳的我的意思是說只要是身心障礙者理由的應該都免繳可是這個"},{"start":4986.657,"end":5008.516,"text":"因為強勢到當然我們我想要幫他們簡單的講就是因為繳費是依據家庭的這個收入整體去看那障礙者本身他就是比較弱勢那即便在家庭中也是你說的只是你說的只是經濟上但是我們說的是用這個CRPD公約的精神以及障礙平權的角度好不好那所以"},{"start":5009.016,"end":5023.91,"text":"即便在佔領中也是所以就業服務法的55條規定僱主聘僱外國人從事第46條第1項第8款至第10款的規定之工作應向中央主管機關設置之就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費"},{"start":5026.272,"end":5041.165,"text":"但我想要跟部長報告的是法條其實並沒有明訂這個金額所以有沒有可能透過修正執法或是以韓式的方式讓申請者為障礙者時可以得以免繳或是減少繳納每月兩千元的就業安定費針對申請障礙者嗎對沒錯好我們來評估"},{"start":5044.168,"end":5062.236,"text":"那是不是可以請你們評估後將評估的這個結果跟我說當然當然當然謝謝委員謝謝我們可能也要跟衛福部一起啦是請你們一起一併評估因為我希望這個這個應該是一個可以幫身心障礙者的福利的部分希望我們的這個部長可以為他們來爭取這個福利好第二個"},{"start":5066.263,"end":5083.895,"text":"在昨天有跟部長討論到一個有關於這個加班46小時就不能免稅的部分那我總覺得這個部分沒有講得很清楚這部分我要再跟您請教一下部長的回答其實是會有這樣的加班費免稅的上限是希望不鼓勵不要鼓勵加班太超過這個程度對不對"},{"start":5086.119,"end":5099.557,"text":"是有一點這樣子有一點嘛對不對所以是我可以這樣理解沒錯嘛對不對所以事實上我也知道當然我也不希望我們都不希望那我們根據勞基法的32條僱主徵得勞工同意得延長工作時間"},{"start":5101.319,"end":5122.794,"text":"每個月延長工作時間的總時數不得超過46小時但如遇天災、事變或突發狀況有例外的規定,僱主經工會或勞資會議同意後,延長工作時間得才三個月總量控制但一個月不得超過54小時,每三個月不得超過138小時"},{"start":5131.96,"end":5141.688,"text":"勞資雙方同意的那在這前提之下對吧我們是不是可以還是可以我是不是還是可以理解為部長還是不太願意看到超過46小時的加班情況的存在"},{"start":5143.151,"end":5159.882,"text":"我們當然是希望能夠不要超過我們這樣的法定的加班一天啊所以你就是不習慣勞工加班這麼多嘛對不對是當然當然好那我根據主機住的統計我們臺灣薪資前三低的行業第一個是住宿跟餐飲業大概是34,711塊美容美髮大概是35,809塊製造業大概是44,143塊那同時加班工時最長的行業剛好也是製造業就是我們的製造業"},{"start":5172.43,"end":5199.751,"text":"這代表經常性薪資較低的這個製造業其實有這個願意加班的或者是實質上工時就是比較長的勞工群體,對嗎?是吧?部長是喔是,對不對應該是這樣子的對,所以其實喔部長我們剛剛說了這麼多我都知道我希望我們國家的每位勞工都不需要加班也不想加班了解但事實上我們卻不能忽略的確有一個藍領的這種製造業的勞工族群他們需要加班"},{"start":5201.332,"end":5227.99,"text":"但是部長就忽略他們的需求所以我這邊希望請部長正視這個需求的存在這個群體的存在但是他們需要多賺錢但是卻還被多課稅好這個部分那麼說到底就部長立場是不希望勞工加那麼多班的話對不對剛剛如果說完全不希望他們加那麼多班的話那何不直接乾脆推動修法就是讓他們整個下線這樣直接禁止超過每月46個小時的加班不要開啟任何例外"},{"start":5229.142,"end":5255.562,"text":"這樣的話可能造成的問題也很大啦對嘛是吧當然是也很大嘛對不對是是是因為這個有時候勞工確實他也有想要加班的意願因為想要多賺錢這個也是可以理解的然後我們也必須去體諒同情這種狀況那包括在企業裡面他有時候有這樣的需求對嘛部長所以說我們剛剛討論到現在你也講出一個實話嘛就是說我們只要超過這46小時的"},{"start":5257.043,"end":5276.835,"text":"是有存在的然後也有兩大重點七個就是企業客觀有這個需要的存在第二個是這個勞工有這樣的需要的存在那第三個就是勞資雙方必須同意吧對不對所以我覺得當初你說的你上次你昨天說的喔這樣可能會變相鼓勵他們加班我覺得這應該不應該是這樣考量的對吧這是"},{"start":5278.116,"end":5292.291,"text":"對啦 其實並不是說變相鼓勵他們加班我知道您的想法 那我們來這個應該要跟財政部商量沒關係 我繼續再講下去喔我把這個數據講清楚給你聽希望您有更有底氣的去講這件事情喔"},{"start":5292.992,"end":5313.046,"text":"根據這個2023年的新世代人才調查發現18到35歲在職人士近兩成有兼職收入其中六成多是跨領域兼職大多從事設計、教學和業務但是另外一個調查也發現過半新鮮人有這個意願從事兼職主要原因是想多賺錢然後正職收入太少"},{"start":5313.746,"end":5334.606,"text":"那所以剛剛看到就是不只是我們蘭嶺製造業想要賺錢社會新鮮人與白嶺上班族也想要多賺錢那我想部長也是很認真我們都是我想大家都很努力一定是責任制領同樣的法定的這個薪水的情況之下都努力完成任務但是我想剛剛重申有廣大勞工有這個加班的需求"},{"start":5335.666,"end":5360.713,"text":"那事實上根據112年你們這個勞工生活及就業狀況調查報告曾經加班超過46個小時的人口人數將近3%那換算下來部長知道多少嗎?大約大約是33萬的勞工所以我要跟部長講這是真實確實存在的一群人那麼我想部長身為我們臺灣勞工的大家長"},{"start":5363.308,"end":5370.863,"text":"我們是不是可以答應本席是不是可以代表勞工們去跟財政部爭取這46小時加班後這個免稅的範圍"},{"start":5372.964,"end":5398.411,"text":"我們來跟財政部來演繹看看好嗎?我們來跟他反映啦對我整個數據這樣邏輯順下來你應該是可以充分理解為什麼我提這件事情我了解那是不是也可以拜託您去幫忙全力的爭取喔所以感謝我們的部長為勞工人謀福利我們來跟財政部討論看看好嗎?但另外我要再提一個有關這個伙食費的免稅額度是否也可以一併爭取喔?"},{"start":5399.631,"end":5420.558,"text":"畢竟現在外食也越來越貴了那我想大家深有同感嘛同歐膨脹所以公司如果願意體諒勞工提供更好的福利我覺得我們也應該鼓勵所以我也想要爭取說部長是不是也可以一併的把這個伙食費的免稅額可以從每個月2400可不可以跟他們討論到增加到3000想說部長有沒有辦法來幫他們一併的反應"},{"start":5423.198,"end":5442.151,"text":"好,我們這個免稅額、伙食費的部分了解這是我的另外一題,沒有在簡報上對,我們來一起來反映看看好不好包括那個加班費嘛,是不是主要是那個加班費的免稅額的範圍因為有這個3%,大概30幾萬人就是有這個存在的需求"},{"start":5446.888,"end":5475.035,"text":"因為他就是需要錢因為又會牽涉到整個所得稅的調整財政部恐怕沒關係部長你只要你只要幫他們發聲努力去謀取這個福利因為我覺得他其實確實有必要的因為我剛剛這些數據都已經呈現給您看如果你需要我們本期也可以再把這個整理一份給您我覺得這是可以去跟財政部說的因為這批人甚至是有這個需求的存在好不好我也把數據都整理出來好另外喔"},{"start":5476.021,"end":5477.666,"text":"我要再加問一個這個低薪現象"},{"start":5478.943,"end":5490.985,"text":"我們的主計處昨天發布1至8月的薪資統計總薪資平均數成長是4.27%創10年最高實質經常性的薪資平均也連續5個月成長增幅為4年來最高實質總薪資增加的比例是1.92%也是近6年最高然後說打敗通膨部長對這樣的現象是不是覺得勞工之福"},{"start":5508.134,"end":5529.32,"text":"委員我們的實質經常性薪資真的是成長的而且包括像餐飲現在也創新高餐飲現在很低那麼他現在已經到達37,000這樣的水平好沒錯事實上部長但是我還是要提醒你這個要持續關注我這個不是不要高興的太早加薪追不上通膨其實才是常態"},{"start":5530.581,"end":5544.683,"text":"2022年以後這個經濟成長較為平穩加上CPI的增長仍高居不下其實導致2023年實質性的經常性的這個薪資跟實質性的薪資的增長全部都是負成長那其中"},{"start":5545.904,"end":5564.169,"text":"實質性的薪資更為2017年以來持續的負增長年增率是負1.04%那受僱的這些員工其實經常性薪資已經連續三年的負成長所以你只用今年這個一到八月看其實只是一小段那還有一個重點是什麼"},{"start":5565.009,"end":5577.868,"text":"其實就是昨天開始漲電價了就算經濟部保守的評估說CPI只增加0.03%那我想還是會有一大票的預防性的漲價的部分所以"},{"start":5581.994,"end":5597.527,"text":"這個部分我要提醒我們的部長是不是可以持續的關注那甚至是去調查其實之前我們這個會期的上半年也有通過所謂的中小企業發展條例等等的是鼓勵企業分享這個加薪給勞工嘛 對不對"},{"start":5598.328,"end":5615.676,"text":"好那我也想要提醒部長請你們持續追蹤看這件事情的成效究竟有沒有真正的展現出來好不好那情況到年底的時候尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題"},{"start":5631.636,"end":5637.046,"text":"請何部長每年的工商死亡人數大概多少?"},{"start":5644.363,"end":5670.365,"text":"公傷死亡的人數我們今年是60目前為止300對,一年大概320我去年是320然後我們最近在凱米颱風之後目前有兩個族人是因為在在都市工作因工作而死亡那我先跟你說報告一下就是9月24號有一個就是在"},{"start":5671.738,"end":5693.573,"text":"在苗栗的太安鄉在工作的時候被一個一頓重的大石掉下來打中了後來帶回去我們南投新義鄉他是一個沒有結婚的一個家裡也沒有父母親只有兄弟姐妹的一個原住民青年我最主要要講的問題就是說他後來發現沒有投保"},{"start":5694.694,"end":5710.028,"text":"每次都是還是會發生這些問題結果後來工會也在努力然後後來跟僱主達成一個協商就是說可能賠180萬那至於我剛才講的因為他的身份的關係"},{"start":5711.129,"end":5728.395,"text":"在職業災害的這個職災的這個申請當中很像沒有受益者也就是說他沒有父母親了也沒有結婚嘛只有兄弟姐妹可是一定是他兄弟姐妹幫他幫他買帳的啊可是這些費用就沒有人沒有人可以申請到所以這個部分可能要去看一下能不能對"},{"start":5729.795,"end":5733.996,"text":"邀請勞動部部長．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會的單身者死亡後的給付問題"},{"start":5749.52,"end":5777.413,"text":"這個僱主就很有良心僱主先賠了五百萬僱主自己拿出來的然後工地險有兩百萬團體意外險兩百萬一共拿了九百萬也就是說他還沒有加上勞保的這些給付他就已經拿到了九百萬那跟相較於這個一百八十萬實在是十萬八千里我的意思就是說你要去知道這個來龍去脈跟他的比較跟差距因為同樣的一個族人失去生命不要說族人啦國人失去生命的話"},{"start":5778.553,"end":5797.861,"text":"不同的家庭得到不同的一個待遇就天然之別那另外一個就是目前還在跟雇主協商的是0403的地震他是在台中離山工作結果石頭掉下來打到他後來住了家屋病房然後後來一段時間後過世了目前一毛錢都還沒有領到"},{"start":5799.361,"end":5827.751,"text":"還在跟僱主在那邊協商說最近要召開協調會還要找我過去那我意思是說像這種勞工死亡的這些我是覺得說還是希望我們勞動部這邊可以主動去積極的介入不然有些人是184萬有的人是900萬有的人是完全沒有領到你說這對同樣生活在台灣的這一塊土地上面因為工作在不同的地區然後遭受到這樣不平等的待遇我是覺得應該盡量去避免可以嗎好不好好"},{"start":5829.291,"end":5845.281,"text":"委員其實資災保險現在比較普遍比起勞保大家保得更多所以能夠更全面去瞭解一下科案的特殊性好不好那我們就針對112年原住民就業狀況調查來看我們原住民勞動參與率我們先看一下15到24歲"},{"start":5852.245,"end":5876.602,"text":"呃這個還有55歲以上反而是比一般民眾還要高也就是說真正需要工作25歲到54歲這一群人呢是比我們全國的那個工作的那個機會是比較低的所以這個部分可能要去想辦法來解決因為這個25歲到54歲政治他應該工作的時候他青壯年的時候比較有體力的時候卻他的工作卻比較低可以嗎"},{"start":5877.342,"end":5903.559,"text":"好 我們來了解對 反而是那個比較高齡的或者是比較低齡的工作的那個比例比較高所以會發生意外也是有它的還有就是我們大部分是從事營建、工程業、製造業及住宿餐禮可是住宿餐禮這個部分很像都是part-time的工作所以我們幾乎都是臨時性的工作這個部分可能要在它的就業的或者是說它的"},{"start":5904.42,"end":5927.775,"text":"我們在實施我們的數位課程不是我們在計劃的時候是不是應該能夠提升他們的一些專業領域不是永遠都是在看門或是洗盤子或是這些以後可以受到比較好的教育或者說受訓以後可以變成一個領台的或是櫃台人員或者是成為一個領導階層是不是不是永遠都是做那些比較低階層的"},{"start":5929.136,"end":5933.18,"text":"委員我們其實都有幫部落還有地方政府合作為原住民開設這種執訓的比較專業技能的專班那在8月1號我看到一個新聞是取消喬外森從事白嶺專機工作"},{"start":5949.798,"end":5965.738,"text":"那以後他們也可以從事像呃旅宿業這方面清潔的訂房接待啊所屬餐廳外廠工作這些工作就跟原住民的工作會重疊所以我就說是不是能夠呃比如說保障啊或者說有一些比例啊不要"},{"start":5966.238,"end":5994.59,"text":"有這個比例?有,我們有針對原民有保障比例喔是是是好,最後一個就是我們目前常常聽到民族民的高山巷島有一些工作上的一些危險那我想說這些人都沒有人在關心他們我先說他們當然收入可能相對比較高是一天四千四千五到五千可是常常會被山友臨時取消出團然後因為可能颱風就取消團然後就會被就遭遇到"},{"start":5995.43,"end":5995.53,"text":"還有就是說﹖"},{"start":6020.206,"end":6044.198,"text":"救難工作的時候會叫他們去結果沒有給他們任何一毛錢那就是義務性的所以這個部分是不是也應該說納入說以後大家救難的時候第一個想到他們可是卻沒有相對的收入跟保障給他們第三個就是我們上次有講到在勞動環境部的時候山上很多垃圾還有比如說我們去看有沒有人在盜採那些珍貴的木材"},{"start":6045.379,"end":6063.234,"text":"這些人高山協作工作他不是每天都有工作嗎所以這些人就可以把他們聘用為比如說我們農業部的啦或者是我們環境部的這些相關的這些高山的工作因為平常你不是那麼容易到達只有他們可以去所以這些人無論他的工作的一些"},{"start":6064.355,"end":6087.676,"text":"我們所謂的他的合約或是他的未來的工作的那個保障啊比如說投保的這個部分啊我想都沒有人在幫他們想辦法所以想說勞動部其實可以優先來去想說這些高三協助員他們未來工作的一個取向因為會越來越多人從事高三的活動嘛而且他們確實也是背負了那麼多的一個所謂的"},{"start":6088.897,"end":6107.393,"text":"很重要的工作因為目前他有一個高山工作執行是希望他們不要背超過30公斤這個30公斤也不是很合理因為他一定是先從重的開始因為他每天的消耗一定會有一定是從50公斤開始背背背然後下山的時候就變成大概十幾公斤所以這個高山工作執行就是沒有去實際參與的人去訂的"},{"start":6109.275,"end":6109.956,"text":"接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":6144.895,"end":6147.969,"text":"好 謝謝主席 來有請何部長請何部長"},{"start":6152.427,"end":6169.955,"text":"委員好部長好謝謝你今天早上相關的說明我們還是針對今天的主題來跟部長做一些討論一開始還是針對這個黑衣寶寶大家黑戶寶寶對不起當然人數不多可是對於我們來講認為這是一個還是要很關心的議題"},{"start":6180.559,"end":6197.948,"text":"在討論這個之前其實還是先肯定一下我們這個勞動力發展署目前所做的努力就是針對於這個友善就醫在這些移工友善就醫的部分做了很好的一個地圖專區對我們最近開通的10月1號開通"},{"start":6201.07,"end":6201.871,"text":"目前的移工人數約是80萬"},{"start":6219.06,"end":6237.387,"text":"如果再加上沒有掌握到可能有將近百萬那不知道目前10月1號到現在有多少位的人員加入到這個LINE app裡面當作常常在瀏覽或是需要協助的時候他們可以用的工具目前有沒有掌握到這個數據"},{"start":6241.01,"end":6245.473,"text":"我們如果是有100萬左右的話當然很希望才兩個多禮拜的時間就有到這麼好的成績期待"},{"start":6266.685,"end":6291.142,"text":"會有更完整的這些人員來參與不知道在座各位包括部長、署長有參加嗎?有,有,署長有參加他每天都在看這樣才能夠實際掌握到他的動態而且如果真的需要協助或怎麼樣的話可以在第一時間就發動協助的部分當然從中央、部裡面、署裡面還有地方"},{"start":6292.123,"end":6314.654,"text":"期待他們共同的來針對移工就醫的部分可以有更完整的一些配套措施這是很感謝的部分那黑戶寶寶其實目前我們知道他們還是很需要大家共同來照顧不管他的狀況是如何那我們也知道財源還是一個問題"},{"start":6316.275,"end":6341.041,"text":"其實金額不是很多可是對於這些照顧還是畢竟需要一些財力來能夠支持所以包括黑戶寶寶還有失聯移工的醫療代帳因為我在醫療單位了解的過程裡面我們的部立醫院基本上都是由他們在負責處理這些不管是失聯移工或者是黑戶寶寶的醫療"},{"start":6342.761,"end":6358.575,"text":"對他們來講也是一個負擔所以這部分有沒有相關的演繹可以讓我們了解需不需要跨部會的協助有,其實委員在之前行政院有召開跨部會的會議在陳建仁院長的時代"},{"start":6359.836,"end":6381.081,"text":"那麼當然衛福部也希望我們勞動部這邊因為這是這樣我們這個幾乎都是私聯的移工而產生的醫療費用包括他的可能生育或是各方面那這方面我們"},{"start":6382.501,"end":6409.274,"text":"當然我們有跨部會的討論這個要怎麼去補貼醫院在這部分的費用的承擔因為現在都是醫院他被迫要大概買單這些這樣的醫療費用薪水還不少其實越來越多這樣子那我們正在討論當中希望很快會有結果不然的話對這個醫院來講當然還是一個很大的負擔"},{"start":6410.414,"end":6433.683,"text":"公務預算嗎因為這個會牽扯到下一個問題就是那未來我們有沒有辦法有效的去強化外國仲介的課則我記得之前我們有討論這個議題尤其跟印度簽了MOU以後現在進入到實質討論的話那未來對於這個外國仲介是不是我們也希望把相關的需求連帶的納進來包括遣還"},{"start":6436.464,"end":6457.004,"text":"費的負擔、收容費的負擔還有醫療費用的負擔是,我們對失聯移工、對醫療費用我們現在正在試圖跟來源國協商我們在每一個來源國的雙邊會議上我們都有提出這樣的議題就是你所產生的失聯移工的這樣子的醫療費用我們現在試圖往這個方向來處理這樣子"},{"start":6459.266,"end":6486.419,"text":"好那如果有什麼結果或什麼那個成效的話是我們跟委員拿來提供並回報是好謝謝那再過來就要請教薪資提升的政策還有壯高齡勞工權益的問題是因為剛好今天今天行政院的這個經發會也在討論一些改善低薪啊如果能夠讓所有的青年族群能夠得到有效的改善"},{"start":6488.219,"end":6512.11,"text":"另外就是針對於這些教育部也相折之下要研議薪資透明還有企業內部薪資的結構等等的問題請教一下當我們努力的在提升這個最低工資還有最低的這個小時工資的同時其實我們也很關心中介的我們這些勞動朋友"},{"start":6513.391,"end":6541.577,"text":"目前還有沒有什麼樣的政策或者是有哪一些相對有效的方案讓他們已經在這個職場裡面有一個成熟的環境可是他看著下面的這些新進的同仁好像工資越來越倍進跟他同樣的當然還是有差距可是呢他的感受應該是會不太一樣我是不知道因為你身為這個我們勞動朋友的這個最高主管"},{"start":6542.617,"end":6556.184,"text":"的這個相關人員有沒有同步的去設想這些中階勞工在這方面有未來哪一些好的政策或者是相關的政策配套可以協助這一部分的我們的勞動朋友們"},{"start":6556.69,"end":6583.762,"text":"我們最新的這樣子勞動部這邊我們就是主動我在報告裡面有提就是我們跟金管會合作我們在上市櫃公司的ESG裡面他們的報告書裡面我們要求揭露非主管職的薪資的狀況那麼我們希望透過這種揭露讓大家尤其是有能力支付的上市櫃公司先來啦他們那個能夠讓他們提升"},{"start":6585.583,"end":6608.715,"text":"這個他們的所有的大概最低工資以上的以上的這樣的人員的薪水我們是希望目前用這樣子薪資透明化的方式來處理這樣子對那這樣的話也希望能夠帶動對就是還有包括就是政府我們今年提供這是提高的軍公教條新嘛其實軍公教條新對"},{"start":6610.376,"end":6626.147,"text":"最低工資以上的勞工朋友的那個薪資提升會有示範效果企業會普遍加薪你比像台書企業他就加了4%我會說比較有能力的企業他就會跟進這樣子所以我們也是希望能夠呼籲企業在這方面要多善待"},{"start":6627.261,"end":6628.742,"text":"我們期待從各方面都可以來努力讓所有的同仁都有機會得到這邊的好處"},{"start":6653.591,"end":6669.38,"text":"再過來請教中高齡工作保障從媒體我們最近也發現因為數位化、淨零碳排的轉型導致在之前相對資深的員工中高齡工作權"},{"start":6670.541,"end":6690.43,"text":"受到的影響那這一部分有沒有更有效的行政救濟措施或者是未來如何預作安排我們知道每一個公司可能都會面臨同樣的問題的時候那如何能夠有機會去預作相關的安排來減少這個事件或是類似的情形再度發生"},{"start":6692.042,"end":6714.816,"text":"委員我們當然在這個法制面上其實現在中高零專法對你以年齡為名的之前或者是那個我們是會罰款的所以像這個個案他就是用中高零法去罰他他被罰了60萬這個公司所以其實是有法律政策工具那當然您講的應該是預防端那預防端"},{"start":6717.478,"end":6741.565,"text":"確實這個包括淨零碳排、包括數位轉型這都是勞工朋友面臨的挑戰那我們在這方面也是廣泛的就是包括我們對就業訓練我們也是不停的投注資源在做各種補助然後也協助勞工朋友在這方面做技能的提升的自我訓練跟我們協助他這樣子我們也都有補助的很多"},{"start":6742.985,"end":6762.919,"text":"對我們希望勞動朋友知道自己的權益那同時也針對於這些公司也能夠進行有效的勸導也好或者是必要的處罰也好我想很多企業可能還不知道你如果用年齡歧視來之前的話是會被罰的這個我們來加強宣導好不好是好那最後有關於這個退休後"},{"start":6763.519,"end":6781.789,"text":"重返原聘單位的鼓勵制度這一部分其實媒體真的討論非常非常的多所以如何能夠讓借領退休的這些同仁們他要原聘也好或者是要退休以後就是續聘或者是退休以後再聘"},{"start":6783.11,"end":6809.002,"text":"引發很多很多的討論是我相信這一批退休早一定還會有很多的事謝謝委員的修法勞基法54條修正以後這部分真的引起的社會的這樣的討論是非常多這也是一個好事因為大家都開始重視那很多想覺得自己還有工作能力的勞工朋友也會開始思考那我要不要跟公司來討論這件事所以當然會引起一些討論那麼我們也在嘗試從這些"},{"start":6812.603,"end":6830.138,"text":"各案的處理中然後來看看我們有什麼更好的方法來推動這個修法的落實好,我們很期待透過更多的討論以後讓這樣的美意可以真的讓所有的高齡者即使退休以後還可以充滿智障是是是,謝謝委員謝謝王振旭委員的發言接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":6843.443,"end":6851.287,"text":"主席 各位大家午安喔 早安我也不曉得什麼安我們請這個何部長請何部長"},{"start":6858.529,"end":6875.448,"text":"部長 我們行政院公秘書長他們在行政院的經濟發展委員會裡面開會然後曾經在經濟發展委員會的顧問會議裡面提到就是說可以借盡各國薪資透明化的做法"},{"start":6878.452,"end":6901.031,"text":"由勞動部去定義低薪勞工的這個界定大概講的那段話我們看那個報導是這樣講的就是說當會後的記者會說針對薪資政策目前政府已經有最低工資法以及中小企業加薪抵稅等規範但對顧問來說這不足以解決所有的問題因此建議政府參考國外做法"},{"start":6902.312,"end":6918.453,"text":"行政院經發會顧問會議講到說要思考薪資透明度專法推動企業薪資透明度以及定義低薪勞工等秘書長說單純提高最低工資恐怕沒有辦法完全解決低薪勞工問題"},{"start":6919.835,"end":6932.165,"text":"最低工資雖然已經保障最底層的勞工但是每月比最低工資高新台幣一千元、兩千元的人算不算低薪這部分就必須要討論和研議因此勞動部將先討論這個族群"},{"start":6936.668,"end":6957.353,"text":"就是如何定義然後後續政府才有定義以後才可能有政策對應和支持但這一些都還要進行這個社會性的對話然後再提到這個下一次的經發會委員會討論請問他這個是第一次那現在第二次也開完了你們他開完以後你們有沒有定義出來委員是指第一次的定義嗎"},{"start":6963.09,"end":6974.473,"text":"對啊,他不是這樣講,我講那些我剛剛念的中文你都聽不懂嗎?什麼叫低薪勞工的定義?比最低工資多一千元或兩千元算不算低薪?"},{"start":6976.504,"end":6994.419,"text":"因為這個是這樣子我們勞動部我們在最低工資這個部分當然先低薪的定義是很多部長你不要這樣子聰明如你不要在這裡故意拖時間閃閃躲躲然後就主席時間到了叫我下去我是不會下去喔我先在這裡說明喔我是不會下台我一定要問到出來喔你"},{"start":7002.458,"end":7024.984,"text":"行政院的經濟發展委員會已經責成勞動部要去定義低薪勞工的界定那人家新聞稿、新聞報導就說請問比最低工資多一千元、兩千元的人算不算低薪或是你們現在在八月人家經發會的顧問會議"},{"start":7027.185,"end":7053.774,"text":"所有產官學都交給你們要去定義出來你們現在定義出來的介於意義是什麼這麼簡單你為什麼還要這樣顧左右而言他呢委員不好意思因為我們那個因為是這樣我們關於最低薪資的定義我們大概是參考OECD薪資中位數的三分之二這樣來定義那請問現在最低薪資的中位數是多少"},{"start":7056.343,"end":7064.774,"text":"4萬6的三分之二是多少?3萬1所以現在最低薪資在明年的1月1號是28590元那多1000元是29590元然後再多2000元是30590元"},{"start":7073.124,"end":7092.459,"text":"所以如果照你這樣講的你們界定出來比最低工資勞基法所訂的最低那個不是勞基法抱歉我們現在最低工資所公佈的28590多1000元或2000元的人算是低薪喔就是你們界定的低薪對不對好來我們看一下你們的"},{"start":7096.285,"end":7106.055,"text":"這個是今年9月底你們界定最低薪資什麼叫做低薪?你們自己勞發署開出來的求職"},{"start":7108.857,"end":7128.188,"text":"求職的月薪兩萬九千兩百六十一一個是就純粹兩萬九千兩百六十一另外一個是兩萬九千兩百六十一到三萬二幾乎都是在你界定的低薪的範疇裡面是你們勞發署看一下工作內容要做什麼你們勞發署勞動部帶頭開出這種低薪職缺然後今天這個"},{"start":7137.194,"end":7149.251,"text":"勞動部也界定這是低薪的缺然後今天立法院要你談的報告是如何有效提升國內薪資水準、落實保障政府機關內勞工的權益"},{"start":7152.253,"end":7167.807,"text":"你們政府機關內你們界定出低薪以後還開出兩萬九你們界定的低薪連政府都帶頭給低薪啊然後你來看你的報告你今天的業務報告的那個專題報告的書面第2頁"},{"start":7171.249,"end":7195.26,"text":"你們在講說 你們一開始有講如果這個有效的保障機關單位內的勞工的權益然後提升薪資水準你們第二頁講說將勞務委外所運用的承攬或派遣也有勞基法可以適用所以我們定會督促各頁廠商遵守勞基法的履約管理和監督責任然後呢"},{"start":7195.64,"end":7219.007,"text":"本部一定令這個機關構裡面運用勞務承攬的參考原則一定要至少一定要保障這個在法律的規範裡面你們都知道3萬2以內都叫低薪的你們主動開出來的也是2萬9然後你在這裡告訴我們立法委員說我一定會叫他們遵守這個勞基法答非所問好委員我跟你講明年對這個我們都會調到3萬2對這樣的人員"},{"start":7223.652,"end":7238.516,"text":"好,所以你們要全面,你要怎麼調?你的全面,你的預算裡面,你的勞務採購,你的這個承攬的經費都有調整嗎?你從兩萬...對啊,就是我們要承攬經費,我們給他多錢啊?"},{"start":7241.994,"end":7252.799,"text":"你們從什麼時候開始要準備這麼做?你的預算有編列進去嗎?有編了最好是如此你們這個東西喔"},{"start":7255.126,"end":7273.259,"text":"我是打問號啦而且是走回頭路啦行政院在2018年5月18號就提出了十大政策提高薪資十大政策2018年然後就喊出了公部門主動要解決低薪的樓地板式新台幣3萬元"},{"start":7275.42,"end":7288.664,"text":"然後呢第一項政策就是你們認為公部門要帶頭解決嘛你們機關構裡面要先解決嘛所以你們具體的作為在2018年是提升低薪者總薪資到3萬元結果呢2024年還在開2萬9"},{"start":7293.277,"end":7295.158,"text":"現在說一套做一套然後呢新資未達三萬元的當時2018年就講未達三萬元的時候這個要逐漸漸進式提升然後"},{"start":7309.69,"end":7319.997,"text":"再看後面你們的那個勞務存攬的部分當時2018年是以加分去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪或均薪這個3萬當時是這樣子薪資水準這個達到3萬以上的投標廠商給予加分"},{"start":7326.681,"end":7345.282,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7345.991,"end":7357.443,"text":"給我們講一個你要怎麼樣叫這些勞務承攬的人最低薪資都要3萬2你剛剛講的那麼隨便來你告訴我你的政策手段政策手段還有你的勞務採購你要怎麼處理勞務承攬我們馬上去改這個標準可以嗎啊怎麼改怎麼改馬上改啊啊怎麼改改在哪裡啊"},{"start":7372.466,"end":7383.439,"text":"是要按照標規你要怎麼定?你是要講全數員工的薪資要3萬2以上?還是說每個個別員工的薪資都要3萬2以上?"},{"start":7386.069,"end":7400.653,"text":"我現在就問你喔,署長我不要問你喔,我在問你保證你現在講的喔,在這裡要作為成堂證供喔在這裡成功喔明年所有的勞務承攬在招標須知、招標規定都要規定"},{"start":7403.314,"end":7419.428,"text":"眼裡每一個來承攬、要來做這個勞務承攬的公司每一個員工的薪資都要達到三萬兩千元以上的這個標準才有投標資格請問你是不是這樣子你剛才說的是這樣騙我們的喔現在我問你你會跟我說是不是這樣子"},{"start":7426.738,"end":7428.3,"text":"請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能"},{"start":7445.56,"end":7466.274,"text":"你現在回答我說你明年全部都要3萬2以上我剛才問你一句你告訴我你的招標資格一定要他的公司裡面每一個上班的員工都是3萬元你來公部門要投標的這個員工每一個薪資都要實質是3萬2以上你剛剛講是這樣子喔是不是是不是"},{"start":7473.089,"end":7473.289,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7496.107,"end":7518.941,"text":"平均總薪資平均總薪資我就知道不要來這一套我剛剛講2018年就講你還沒講平均總薪資我就跟你講了當時在勞務承攬就是用加分的去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪均薪三萬平均總薪資三萬不是個別勞工"},{"start":7522.083,"end":7537.51,"text":"所以你在這裡剛才剛才說到大聲現在叫回去啊不是個別每一個都三萬二那你剛才幹嘛講得那麼快為什麼剛才吹牛講大話講得這麼快你剛才回答我那一段再放出來再看一下你幹嘛講大話在這裡欺騙立委要不是我戳破你吹牛的氣球"},{"start":7550.1,"end":7556.902,"text":"你現在就講退縮回去了你就是這樣子對立委的你藐視立法院是你的習慣你對立委下指導期也是你的習慣秘書長、副秘書長當久了你指揮我們總召、總召再來指揮我們黨團的立委你也去問我們這裡的立委很好去問我們"},{"start":7575.214,"end":7582.658,"text":"好 我們回到言歸正傳所以你這邊講3萬2以下都是低薪你自己公部門開這種薪水"},{"start":7584.828,"end":7593.592,"text":"這是確實需要檢討那委員因為當年是2018年那其實我現在講是2020年這是9月25你們開出來還是這個薪水我要跟您澄清就是剛剛我講的OECD的平均薪資的中位數的三分之二這個定義是剛剛才我跟你講我剛才都沒有說我講這些都是你講的委員我問你答的"},{"start":7609.199,"end":7621.63,"text":"有說什麼你們界定因為行政院經發會的顧問會議要求你們界定什麼叫低薪那要到今天下午才會定案的事情那因為那你剛才在回答我是隨便親在老公公的喔不是我們準備這麼跟行政院報告對告訴你嘛對三萬二啊這一個"},{"start":7629.057,"end":7648.835,"text":"標準在過去從來沒有定義過對啊,人家在兩個月前就責成你要去定義了所以我才問你啊我監督政府就是要問你這個,要不然你在這裡在幹嘛的我誠實跟你們報告啊,是是對,所以我問你,你們低薪定義這樣子而政府現在開帶頭"},{"start":7652.718,"end":7659.96,"text":"帶頭給的薪資就是兩萬九就是帶頭給第一次所以我們現在要來檢討那麼也編載一百一十四年度的預算拜託委員支持我就講說你的檢討的並不是真實的檢討沒關係啦我現在再說第二次我們政府很早就是也是包括2018年我們的總統任內就喊出零派遣"},{"start":7675.865,"end":7690.009,"text":"那因為零派遣所以所有勞務承攬的人數都變成一直成長根據人事總處成長的統計行政院以及所屬機關勞務承攬派助人數統計從2018年107年到112年這個去年年底第4季為主"},{"start":7700.445,"end":7709.267,"text":"6年內成長幅度平均整個行政院及所屬機關成長幅度是19.3%但是勞動部及所屬成長高達47%勞動部及所屬在2018年第4季是1833人到112年的第4季是2696人"},{"start":7726.158,"end":7745.549,"text":"人家總的行政院機關內成長幅度19.3%你們成長幅度是47.08%而且而且你們這個勞務承攬計畫的員工多數低薪一族所以你們在那邊講說你們要改進你們人數這麼多你要怎麼改進"},{"start":7750.667,"end":7753.938,"text":"你說要落實保障政府機關內的勞工的權益你們是帶頭給低薪啦"},{"start":7759.397,"end":7785.369,"text":"保定光是你們貴部跟你們的機關所屬就開出這樣的勞務承攬缺而且還是最多的還是在你們勞發署你們叫人家這個工作性質要審查聘僱外國人申請案這樣的薪資要多少才合理工作地點還要到這個中華路一段39號中正區"},{"start":7789.506,"end":7808.414,"text":"兩千九百兩萬九千兩百六十億元扣掉勞健保實領薪資兩萬八千一百二十二我們可以理解這個是勞務採購你就付給這個廠商是價金你們也你剛剛講說你明年要改善但是呢你你你"},{"start":7812.577,"end":7840.601,"text":"要去修正這個強化保障勞務承攬勞工的權益但是呢回到勞發署分署和各就業服務中心或就業服務站你們勞務承攬採購的價金最大宗還是這個勞務薪資啊你們的預算成長率是多少來預算成長率是多少你們就勞發署裡面的就業服務站和中心勞務承攬採購的價金預算成長率是多少"},{"start":7841.81,"end":7850.699,"text":"蘇菲委員,是不是十幾分?好,沒關係,我最後一題,我其他還不問了3%以上3%?你從2萬9要跳到3萬2是幾%?你說你們有編列預算要幫人家加薪?"},{"start":7861.403,"end":7864.488,"text":"你預算成長率3%你知道你們現在開出來的職缺兩萬九要給人家加三千元到三萬二三千元這是10%以上欸"},{"start":7878.035,"end":7893.17,"text":"我們目前的勞務承攬的人員其實他是有四個級別那剛剛委員講的是最低的那一級就是業務佐理員兩萬九我們其實其他三級目前的薪資都超過三萬二以上甚至有到三萬八"},{"start":7893.831,"end":7904.138,"text":"所以他們不用加薪嗎?他們不用加薪?公務人員都要加薪的?你的就業服務站、就業服務中心、你的勞發署裡面的這些勞務承攬的業務人員,他們通通不用加薪嗎?把所有的3%的Quota都用來最低一級嗎?有可能嗎?"},{"start":7915.265,"end":7939.716,"text":"跟委員報告都加薪現在只是委員在關心他們都加3%啦都加3%啦所以最低一級也是加3%啦但是因為最低那一級我們在明年我們準備要整個都提升一級那加了之後明年的預算不是所有其他都類似像這個加級就是說它的佔比其實是10%我們在預算裡面是反映這個部分"},{"start":7940.424,"end":7957.567,"text":"你現在不要講這麼多你就告訴我說你在未來勞務承攬的招標須知、招標規範要怎麼具體去規範這樣子就好了招標資格對,我們會具體規範就是要以這樣的薪資標準去禁用我們所有的承攬人員"},{"start":7958.26,"end":7986.861,"text":"所以今天在這裡 主席他這個報告我們都聽得下去啦他今天在裡面說的是說我們這些委外的勞務就會叫他們遵守法律現在法律是兩萬八千五百九十就夠了所以他根本沒有任何的政治承諾在這裡面欸完全沒有欸他講青年 我還有一部分沒有講青年就業他講這個是什麼內容這裡是高空 打高空講一講蓄以為一立法院大家就這樣子就結束了"},{"start":7988.042,"end":8001.867,"text":"因為時間的關係,所以那個部長或者是署長是會後再跟署分委員做一個報告,好不好?他們會後哪有來報告,叫部長本人來報告嗎?當然有來報告,不要啦,再多排幾次我再繼續問啦先這樣子 因為時間的關係啦好,那我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":8611.206,"end":8631.076,"text":"好 休息時間結束 那我們繼續開會我們請下一位委員 陸先驅委員發言好 謝謝主席 那請一下我們何部長好 有請何部長"},{"start":8636.116,"end":8647.861,"text":"部長我請問一下那個中鋼旗下有一個百分之百持股的子公司叫中鋼運通你知不知道這家公司知道對因為他這個針對"},{"start":8651.394,"end":8666.509,"text":"老公爭議的問題之前也躍上媒體好像上個禮拜也有到勞動部去抗議他們說從7月開始他們就被中斷了船員的勞健保而且長時間也不再派任他們到"},{"start":8667.568,"end":8672.052,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」進行專題"},{"start":8690.826,"end":8708.461,"text":"這個跟定期或不定期無關主要是他那個勞保中斷保的問題因為我們當時勞保局有確實明確的告訴他在下船的時候就是必須去別的地方加保不能再"},{"start":8711.784,"end":8738.52,"text":"就是沒有契約關係啦對,因為這個部分之前我們那個交通委員魯明哲委員也有去詢問過局長所以他說也很明確講他這個航港局並沒有行政指導說一定要用定期的契約是由勞資雙方來決議那現在我想請問一下我們今天是勞保司司長來嘛,是吧"},{"start":8740.302,"end":8765.674,"text":"我們市長對那你看一下針對中鋼運通其實他一直以來在今年7月之前他的勞健保都是一直持續加保不管這個船員是在岸還是離岸一直都在投保的對不對他這個是對沒有錯那也表示說是他們資方主動替他們加保了"},{"start":8765.894,"end":8791.042,"text":"所以也表示中央運通一直都有在持續加保也就是說他一直都有持續加保所以他一直都保有這個勞僱關係是沒有問題的吧他的勞僱關係不在我們界定的範圍我們沒有針對這個但是他一直都有保勞健保嘛所以他今天如果要到別家公司加保是不是一定也要從這邊退保所以他一直都在這邊保勞健保是沒有錯的啊"},{"start":8791.762,"end":8820.609,"text":"對那個是他們確實有存在這樣的狀態所以一直有保勞健保所以他這個勞僱關係難道不存在嗎一直在那邊保勞健保那是兩件事我們只管勞保條例這個部分好那重點所以他一直有保勞健保那對中央運動這些員工來講他認為他們這個是不定期契約我們這樣看起來也是蠻合理的啊不委員他們是定期契約或不定期契約不是勞動部界定的"},{"start":8821.973,"end":8832.36,"text":"那是航港局就船員法他們自己本身因為特別法優於普通法啦他不是我勞基法主管的範圍啦那勞動企業的認定難道不是勞動部的職責嗎不是就是這個船員的勞動企業是船員法這個特別法去認定的他的主管機關認定的不是我"},{"start":8846.898,"end":8866.004,"text":"所以傳言法不是對傳言法是交通部航港局主管的那可是他這個是勞工啊他也算是勞工啊對他是勞工沒有錯可是他不是勞基法我這邊管的員工啦我管勞工啦那所以勞基法第9條你的意思說勞基法這個第9條這個勞動契約的規範"},{"start":8870.502,"end":8898.264,"text":"不包含傳援這些勞工嗎?第9條是一個普遍的陳述嘛它是定期契約跟不定期契約的陳述傳援法它會有它的特別規定我再講一遍法律原則是特別法優於普通法所以傳援法優於勞基法優先適用於傳援所以傳援它的勞僱關係的界定必須從傳援法去處理那它這個傳援法它一直保有這個勞健保難道它不算它的勞工嗎?"},{"start":8899.298,"end":8918.775,"text":"啊?不算誰的勞工?不算中鋼運通的勞工嗎?他是中鋼運通的勞工啊可是他跟中鋼運通之間的勞僱關係如何?那是交通部、航港局依據傳言法要去認定的,不是我那他現在找勞動部,勞動部沒有辦法幫他處理這個事情嗎?因為我們,而且他們都在訴訟中,我們只能關懷"},{"start":8920.556,"end":8947.488,"text":"所以我請問一下我們勞動部有明確的告知中鋼運通說他們是不屬於我們勞動部管轄認定的嗎有啊我們在勞保這個關於他斷保的事情我們很明確的告訴他們你下了船你就是關於勞保這件事因為他只有主動問我們勞保這件事而已對我們有告訴他下了船就是那個就是要去別的地方加保啊"},{"start":8948.248,"end":8962.479,"text":"我們這是有明確告訴中央運動的,對啊所以他這個定期契約不定期契約我們勞動部沒有辦法貫典這不是我這邊管轄的範圍啦那所以我們勞基法第9條第一項勞動契約這個認定不包含他們囉"},{"start":8964.091,"end":8982.845,"text":"對阿是阿因為這是一個普通法我們勞基法是一個普通法所以我的意思是說他要依據傳言法去看除非傳言法有去定義他的定期契約或不定期契約所以他們上禮拜去抗議的時候我們勞動部有明確告知他們說這些傳言"},{"start":8986.167,"end":9003.403,"text":"針對勞動企業的認定,傳言法是不是由勞動部來?我們面對他們都講得很清楚,因為我們必須依法行政,這真的是我們的困難。他一直要求我們要求中央運動無條件地去幫他們付保,那事實上不是我能處理的。"},{"start":9005.464,"end":9031.11,"text":"所以我現在也希望說勞動部針對這一部分針對他們的權責各方面認定與否希望能夠很明確告知他們不然他們一直都認定說這個勞動契約應該也是由勞動部主管機關來認定不管是定期不定期勞動部應該是要去認定不然你如何去執行後面有沒有定期契約跟不定期契約的問題嗎"},{"start":9033.651,"end":9054.104,"text":"這個我們跟他們講過啦,其實講過耶所以我希望部長很明確的告知,不然他們變成到這一部分,他們一直認為說勞動部基本上在推卸責任,變成勞動部針對這勞基法,定期契約跟不定期契約都沒有辦法去認定,居然交給法院去認定"},{"start":9056.466,"end":9076.325,"text":"好那這部分我希望還是說清楚講明白也不要搞得曖昧不清沒有曖昧不清其實我們講得很清楚好謝謝謝謝那還有針對我們勞保年金我們現在看這個勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大那也看一下明年度我們是不是預計一樣要撥補1300億元"},{"start":9081.049,"end":9084.212,"text":"然後這6年來我們看一下我們6年我們勞動部撥補預算金大概達到3870億然後部長在接受訪問的時候也有講說要持續撥補確保制度的持續穩健運作所以"},{"start":9104.288,"end":9127.307,"text":"這樣也意味著我們往後這個撥補應該就是變成常態化了是的對嘛那如果如果居然已經撥補是常態化那而且我們現在朝野很多立委其實不分藍綠都已經有提案希望把這個撥補法制化那部長你支持這個撥補法制化嗎我支持啊"},{"start":9128.26,"end":9137.064,"text":"所以部長也願意嘛那我想了解一下當然是支持的不過我要跟委員就是說撥補法制的話我們已經在實踐了那我請問一下行政院現在有提自己的法案版本嗎"},{"start":9144.548,"end":9169.74,"text":"委員,我們用行政作為在實踐的那立法院的要修法案我們都支持都支持嗎?所以各委員提的版本其實基本上部長也都希望支持希望法治化我只支持那單一條文希望法治化就是政府附最終撥補責任那一條而已其他我保留所以我們也希望召委能夠盡快來排審"},{"start":9171.553,"end":9177.197,"text":"這個只有那一條我是在建立我希望委員您能夠幫忙我們也不要因為省的那一條砍年金的訴求又出來然後又要我們砍年金這我們幫不到我是說針對撥補常態化居然已經是常態化已經是每年在做"},{"start":9193.348,"end":9208.069,"text":"所以我們說居然是常態化就寧可這樣我們就修改給它法制化嘛如果只有那一條是OK的對 針對法制化所以針對法制化如果法制化通過部長也當然也希望我們都能夠編列預算進去"},{"start":9209.631,"end":9219.616,"text":"那就是 那就取決於政府的財政能力了就不要常常都用撥補法制化的目的就是編列預算委員 那是同一件事政府負最終撥補責任就是撥補的這一個預算"},{"start":9225.3,"end":9244.601,"text":"我們現在已經在實踐了但是我的意思是說不要每年都用撥補的嘛你為什麼不給他法制化沒有就是撥補啊對啊就編列預算進去嘛對啊法制化就是編列預算那我早就已經在編預算了對啊所以基本上也支持我們委員提案給他法制化嘛"},{"start":9245.181,"end":9264.224,"text":"這個我是支持的我只是說單一那一條而已就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條所以我們現在擔心不要到時候法制化你看現在我們也覺得搞不清楚啊你看禁法補償也已經通過法制化通過以後也不編預算會不會到時候我們這個"},{"start":9266.251,"end":9284.041,"text":"這個法制化以後他這預算萬一不編列的話怎麼辦呢?不可能啦委員你想想看沒有法制化我們都在撥補了更何況是法制化所以一定會撥補嘛對不對一定會一定會不管有沒有入法我們都有在一定會常態性撥補對啊所以我們是真的是希望齁就是委員我真的在強調"},{"start":9285.302,"end":9304.41,"text":"不要因為修了這一條,又要我們砍年金啦,這個沒有沒有,我們就是針對,我們是希望這個撥補給他,既然你已經說是常態,我們就給他正常法制化,也希望這個經費都能夠正常來運作,所以當然也要編列啊,對不對?"},{"start":9305.39,"end":9305.75,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請何部長"},{"start":9335.959,"end":9354.924,"text":"檢核部長部長好部長首先先就我們現在移工的問題來請教部長因為其實我們在基層看到很多移工外籍移工或者是這個這個落跑移工這樣講啦"},{"start":9356.204,"end":9381.517,"text":"其實有很多我們很多尤其是在鄉下地區可能是養雞、養豬可能都有這樣子的失聯移工去幫忙那確實因為有時候這些農場他們就需要人力所以他們有的就真的就是用了這些失聯移工"},{"start":9382.898,"end":9391.37,"text":"我們看到說目前臺灣的移工人數也將近80萬人失聯移工有8萬7千多人這樣有十分之一"},{"start":9399.961,"end":9418.852,"text":"如果照這樣的話就是有十分之一的移工是進來之後然後他可能就走了那像這樣的問題我不知道說勞動部針對這個你們未來要怎麼去解決甚至最近幾天有人跟我講說某一個地方"},{"start":9421.314,"end":9446.119,"text":"這個工廠它用了十幾個失聯移工然後它有報案、它有檢舉結果可能這個專勤隊或是什麼就應該也知道有這個狀況所以我知道說這個問題確實是非常的嚴重那我認為就是說不論是內政部也好或者是我覺得勞動部應該要去正視這個問題"},{"start":9448.139,"end":9474.569,"text":"怎麼樣讓這些失聯移工讓他未來不要一直躲在這個陰暗的角落怎麼樣讓他變成合法或者是說怎麼樣讓他如果他真的是非法那是不是要讓他出去所以我覺得這個問題要解決要不然你失聯移工真的確實越來越多對台灣確實也不是很好"},{"start":9475.089,"end":9478.991,"text":"是那我不知道說勞動部針對這一部分是謝謝委員我們確實是講到這個您來自那個我想彰化地區那個地方我覺得在我們農村尤其是我們農村真的是勞動力很缺乏"},{"start":9490.636,"end":9494.959,"text":"對,所以我們從去年開了一萬兩千名的農業的移工我們在最新的九月二十幾號的跨國勞動力的審查上面我們又再增加了給八千個名額所以現在已經累計有兩萬個農業移工的名額我們允許他進來了"},{"start":9511.169,"end":9528.039,"text":"那麼我們一方面希望透過這種增加正常就是正式的這樣的合法的移工的這樣的數量然後逐漸的把原來在農村裡面的失聯移工能夠逐漸的把它稀釋掉啦那你這樣子之後有比較改善嗎?有有有改善蠻多的"},{"start":9532.421,"end":9561.196,"text":"那其次是委員跟委員報告您講的原來的失聯移工的是否讓他就地轉正啊這確實是一個社會上有在討論的議題那委員這我們其實目前我們正在也在考慮這討論這一個就業服務法的修正關於這一個失聯移工的這一個就地轉正的是否啦是否就地轉正的這個議題我們也正在思考當中"},{"start":9561.616,"end":9580.35,"text":"我覺得要去正視這個問題要不然它這個數字就是一直在那邊整個社會上就確實有這樣的失聯移工在那裡而且我相信很多人都知道這些失聯移工在哪裡只是可能地方有這個可能也許有勞務的需求"},{"start":9581.451,"end":9597.929,"text":"所以我覺得真的確實要去正視啦另外一個議題就是我們剛剛有幾位委員有特別提到就是我們這個女性移工進來之後她如果懷孕那懷孕之後確實有時候她如果雇主"},{"start":9598.55,"end":9618.921,"text":"他會覺得說我原本是要你是有勞動力的移工進來幫忙的那你現在懷孕之後可能就會有一些狀況那也許會不會就因為這樣子然後被解僱那我希望就是說這個問題確實也存在我之前碰到一位僱主"},{"start":9619.901,"end":9635.73,"text":"他就請了女性的移工嘛那她就懷孕了那懷孕之後其實這個女性移工她自己也很會保護自己啦她就跟老闆說她懷孕了那確實也真的懷孕了那懷孕之後她說她原本的工作她不能再做"},{"start":9636.71,"end":9636.73,"text":"致詢議員"},{"start":9657.023,"end":9677.669,"text":"你現在這樣子我工廠裡面就少了一個人力那你還這樣子我讓你做最輕鬆的工作你還這樣子所以我覺得這個勞動部應該也要去正視這樣的問題未來如果這樣子的狀況那僱主應該也有權利來保障他自己的權益當然就是委員"},{"start":9679.729,"end":9692.795,"text":"我覺得就是說在這個方面我們也要強調啦雙方可以合一解約的那麼合一解約我們會提供給牢固雙方同時的法律輔助啦我們未來這麼做就是說"},{"start":9695.056,"end":9717.815,"text":"除了保護移工的合法的權利之外我們對僱主的這樣的聘僱權也是也應該要有所那個幫助目前有對我們也是一樣應該要可以告訴僱主就是說這是可以合意解約的那麼就是說他因為他合意解約事實上其實"},{"start":9719.316,"end":9734.007,"text":"如果他說他不做了嘛他不做了嘛那那個部分的話像這種個案我跟委員報告因為這種情況確實實務上存在因為雙方都其實都不可規則"},{"start":9735.208,"end":9762.053,"text":"那現在其實地方政府因為透過勞資的協調其實大部分就是雙方就是合意解約了那合意解約可能僱主不會影響因為他就是想說他解約完他的那個名額還是保留他可以繼續聘沒有問題那移工本身因為他是懷孕那基本上我們因為性別平等公務法還是要保障所以如果必要我們就會有安置保護那等到確定他可以工作的時候就轉換僱主"},{"start":9763.233,"end":9789.082,"text":"這雙方的權益都把它確保不會影響當然我們今天會特別討論這個就是說女性的移工她在臺灣的權益我們當然是保護嘛那如果說對雇主也是造成一些困擾的話我覺得雇主的權益我們也是要把它兼顧啊所以我們當然就是說勞動部針對這一部分我們也希望其實很多人會覺得說為什麼現在失聯的移工這麼多"},{"start":9790.542,"end":9806.644,"text":"四年移工這麼多那正式的有的要聘僱的話確實有一些困難比如說現在一些這個鄉下地區可能到了農忙的時候他如果要再去申請一個勞僱那個移工的話確實有時候會覺得還蠻麻煩的"},{"start":9808.526,"end":9821.414,"text":"說實在的那有的就覺得說有的可能知道說哪裡有這個10年移工他就自己去聘了所以我覺得這個問題確實是存在那我希望就勞動部要確實去正視這個問題因為"},{"start":9824.416,"end":9834.625,"text":"從疫情之後失聯移工已經到8萬多人這真的是太可怕了不過委員其實現在失聯移工是下降的我們過去疫情期間都有3%到4%現在只有2%有下降有下降"},{"start":9838.649,"end":9839.55,"text":"兼顧移工權益保障移工權益"},{"start":9854.41,"end":9869.143,"text":"讓他可以在原本的僱主那邊可以好好的工作而不是因為任何的問題然後就逃跑這個我覺得這個是我們勞動部需要去做的另外我要今天要另外一個議題就是公務單位的這個勞工"},{"start":9870.484,"end":9893.741,"text":"公務單位裡面的勞工的權益問題就是說我想知道就是說像部長你的司機也好他應該也是這個勞保勞基法都是用勞基法公有司機都是用勞基法那我想請教就是說在我們的這個公務單位裡面的勞工如果"},{"start":9895.261,"end":9921.371,"text":"這個單位他可能有一些關係那不需要這個勞工了那你們有這種資遣資遣就是說非自願離職有那種非自願離職對機關內的適用勞基法的這種勞工他的非自願離職的處理是嗎是你們有這種非自願離職的處理嗎我知道好像全部都是要求他們要自願離職"},{"start":9929.174,"end":9933.162,"text":"人總夫人市長這邊是不是可以先有一些回答我再來補充"},{"start":9937.577,"end":9961.671,"text":"是,報告委員,因為移工公有,他還是適用勞基法,像這種管理措施還是按照勞基法的規定來走是,那現在機關裡面的勞工,機關裡面的勞工如果他非自願離職可是機關,目前好像是機關都是以自願離職的方式請勞工來簽"},{"start":9964.512,"end":9973.222,"text":"目前是不是這樣?一般機關裡面當然都希望勞工可以留下來比較不會有時候讓他廢置業離職有時候因為首長更換嘛跟著首長進來的"},{"start":9981.348,"end":10003.646,"text":"那個工友不會像那個跟隨所長進來啊?不會,他機要才會對,沒有,我講的就是說公務單位裡面的勞工就是說目前我們的狀況我們目前的狀況好像就我所知啦就只有自願離職,沒有那種非自願離職是不是有這種狀況?"},{"start":10006.699,"end":10024.004,"text":"這個目前我們是沒有去調查這些狀況你們沒有去調查這種狀況嗎那是不是可以請這個這個婦人市長或勞動部就機關裡面的勞工好的勞工勞動權益是不是就這部分可以做一些調查好我們去瞭解一下可以嗎"},{"start":10031.192,"end":10044.703,"text":"夫人市長你先回座我想請這個部長就剛剛淑芬委員也有特別提到我們治理機關裡面的這個勞務承攬的這樣的一個工作這個薪資都比"},{"start":10046.663,"end":10074.17,"text":"這是也是低薪那當然就是說勞動部是要保障所有的勞工的權益不論是你一般的這種勞工或者是公務單位裡面的勞工我覺得這個都是我們這個勞動部要去保障的所以我也希望就是說我們今天提出來這些議題希望部長能夠正視那我剛剛講的公務機關裡面的勞動勞工的權益的這個部分我也希望你能夠做一個調查"},{"start":10074.73,"end":10095.004,"text":"可以嗎?好,我來跟人總商量好嗎?我來跟人總商量,看要怎麼處理因為委員,他那裡面吼,公務機關裡面有這種職籍關係他未必會適用勞基法裡面的那樣的勞資不是啊,那他就是勞工怎麼會說沒有適用,就是所有的勞工就適用勞基法嗎?"},{"start":10096.406,"end":10116.504,"text":"對,可是因為在公務機關裡面那個文化是不一樣的沒有這樣的啦我們跟人總來商量好不好,看誰來處理所有的勞工就是適用勞基法嘛那你當然公務單位不是委員,這我要取得行政院這邊的諒解或是人總的同意我才能去介入這樣的東西"},{"start":10119.726,"end":10136.812,"text":"你是勞動部部長也是保障所有勞工的權益的最高主管每一個機關裡面雖然他那個勞工是適用勞基法可是他的這樣子的包括他的薪資各方面是看他的機關的決定"},{"start":10139.346,"end":10164.162,"text":"因為那個是公務機關裡面的也有那樣的所以剛剛除非委員為什麼會講就是說我們自己本身勞動部你就是帶頭低薪啊對,我勞動部這邊我一定會去改善像我的那個勞發署我可以馬上改善那你是勞動部部長你應該也要去要求各機關你開出來的這個缺承攬業務的這個缺我們會建議行政院好不好我們會建議行政院好好謝謝"},{"start":10169.09,"end":10186.883,"text":"好 謝謝黃學光委員的發言謝謝部長我們下一位請郭國文委員發言主席 謝謝有請何部長好 有請何部長"},{"start":10191.761,"end":10206.007,"text":"是 你好部長好 部長那個大家在關心這個薪資的問題那本席也關心很多時間那很確實來說的話我們實質薪資的成長在這幾年如果有成長的話都相當微幅"},{"start":10206.411,"end":10235.609,"text":"然後甚至有馬拉斯的現象那因為過往這個都幾乎在組織處在做統計那我是不曉得我們勞動部裡頭有沒有特別因為每次呢只要談到薪資的問題彷彿啊彷彿我們就只有基本工資沒有其他的一個政策上的工具我是覺得這些蠻可惜那你如果說就國籍的比較來看的話這幾年來看的話你看那個受僱人員的這個GDP的占比"},{"start":10236.169,"end":10250.84,"text":"日本的部分是高達五成以上日本、美國、韓國都是五成台灣的部分只有四成四英國占比的部分占據的占比台灣的部分是34.4"},{"start":10253.982,"end":10266.71,"text":"然後呢日本才13.1那簡單的講從這個數字來看的話那個經濟學所說的那個下滲的效果在台灣來說其實是顯見而言是非常相對非常的少"},{"start":10267.83,"end":10294.86,"text":"那在這個部分其實最近我們的立法院預算中心也做過一些評估報告那本席也要求審計部做出一些專案的報告那我一度也是要求行政院是不是有一些比較具體的一個跨部會的平台的可能性但是我發現行政院的這個原來有一個跨部會的平台就是改善所得分配專案小組"},{"start":10296.48,"end":10317.633,"text":"但是後來就不了了之就回歸各部會,各部會就回歸到各部會的本位就不會有辭職的效果如果基本工資說沒有效果,還是有效果它有主體墊高的效果但主體墊高的時間收費對象就是固定的我們看到的整個大概是20%的勞工"},{"start":10319.912,"end":10334.028,"text":"那基本工資的這幾年的漲幅到11年為止大概三成二但是相關的比較直接有推動到的大概是中位數的部分中位數的部分大概只有一半"},{"start":10335.329,"end":10348.721,"text":"我個人來看的話就實質上中位數以下的勞工大概平均算起來大概有350萬位居於整個中小企業或壯年世代大專學歷這個版本的綜合體"},{"start":10350.979,"end":10372.61,"text":"這些人其實相對而言那個調薪的部分都是高薪者越調越多那低薪的部分有主體店高那中間中部位的部分很明顯就沒有這個部分其實早期我在來到那個衛環委員會的時候也跟之前的部長聊過但是呢老實說都不了了之沒有一個具體的想法"},{"start":10372.99,"end":10380.937,"text":"我是覺得非常可惜然後呢我是覺得副部長上來是不是有一些比較突破性的作為我們來探討看看"},{"start":10381.926,"end":10402.972,"text":"那像最近我就有請那個特別請那個審計部做一個報告出來審計部的報告當中有提到一個部分就是說那個勞動部每年大概花了大概上百億的資訊大概用了就業安定基金的錢花上百億但是就業安定基金的這個內容"},{"start":10405.213,"end":10429.092,"text":"聽說是越來越多元化蔡署長上來越來越多元化多元化到讓人家覺得還有噴刃其他有的沒有好像社區大學一樣也就是說簡單的講那就業的觀點性不高啦就業觀點性不高好這是第一個就業觀點性不高第二個呢還有一個產業新建兵計畫授訓完之後大概去"},{"start":10430.333,"end":10450.667,"text":"就業的勞工大概八成的員工與學員薪資未滿三萬低於整個產業平均薪資的三萬二就是說你透過這些當中你也沒有解決這個低薪的問題甚至還有包括42%留無從事部分工時"},{"start":10454.369,"end":10476.254,"text":"那這個薪資我看這是比固定的月薪的基本工資甚至還低啊所以說我們每年花這麼多那個部長我們這個每年的就業安定基金你知道大概我們的小金庫大概有多少錢?我們又不是小金庫那是小金庫啦講白點就是啦今年編290億的稅入跟稅290億嘛我看快破300了"},{"start":10480.655,"end":10501.521,"text":"以照這種移工或企業需要的那個extra等等開放的這個產業別越來越多情況底下遲早的但是這個遲早的部分是像是一個等於是體制外然後由企業來繳納的資金的金額啊老師說有一點老師這樣已經越來越"},{"start":10503.141,"end":10531.74,"text":"特定對象或特定人士或特定單位在申請而沒有達到實質的效果的那種現象出現就審計部這份報告裡頭就寫得很清楚那你要不要去思考看看要如何去善用這一筆就業安定基金就業安定基金如何善用就是說有沒有可能先說譬如講你鼓勵一些企業因為台灣大部分都中小企業"},{"start":10533.281,"end":10553.073,"text":"因為我們具體的調薪的幅度其實相對而言因為大概是三種一種就是最重要是企業的加薪那一種是員工的本身然後另外就是集體的溢價能力但是溢價能力其實集體溢價能力其實最近也沒有成長所以靠的是企業的加薪剩下這一步而已"},{"start":10554.318,"end":10570.712,"text":"所以我們有可能企業家然後勞動部跟著做一比一的方式的處理這樣比較直接了當委員我們來思考看看好不好對啊 比較直接了當嘛你每年的金額算非常的多現在已經高達"},{"start":10572.196,"end":10585.004,"text":"290億你與其花那麼多的行政流程行政成本花那麼多資訊資訊花了上百億上百億出來的效果還是老實講還是不好每年這樣花每年這樣花你一年有290億"},{"start":10588.673,"end":10604.368,"text":"10年就2900億了那可以解決很多低薪的一個問題啦你真的不用花那麼多時間就用現今的思考你就是有這筆錢可以充分運用嘛那事實上老實講那課程已經開到已經有一些"},{"start":10605.749,"end":10619.997,"text":"可是跟委員報告因為這裡面補助工會去辦訓是一個蠻大的項目那工會他們對這個需求都蠻大的我知道啦那個部分就是很像是在幫王後偉做工會關係一樣"},{"start":10622.019,"end":10629.083,"text":"還是有功能的 還是有功能的 那你至少去限縮沒有就業關聯性的一些項目我們來檢討好嗎 騰出一些時間 我說你就用了執訊的部分才百億你還有194億還將近200億的扣打嘛委員的建議很好啦 我也不是說全部叫你都投入這邊把其他人砍掉"},{"start":10646.495,"end":10660.904,"text":"這我知道這個委員會怎麼走得出去是 謝謝委員您的建議我們來思考這個真的要思考一下第二個是價別雖然我們在不同的法案當中有幫員工爭取價別不如講增加那個育嬰價家庭照顧價 對不對"},{"start":10663.166,"end":10682.028,"text":"交易國家運營價增加了之後其實多半是誰在申請這些良法美意大部分都公部門一般私部門不太敢去申請申請回來搞不好就沒辦法了到現在為止都是這樣子主席讓我多講一下因為剛剛有陳委員說我可以多講一會"},{"start":10683.602,"end":10705.767,"text":"就是說呢就是說呢這個情況底下他這看得到吃不到但是傳統的勞工的部分的價別從1984年勞基法實施以來我們的婚價、我們的商價、我們的這個產價、我們的流產價都沒差都沒差以前呢又跟軍公教比較起來又有一定的落差又一段落差部長部長"},{"start":10708.068,"end":10709.508,"text":"最近有一個公務人員請假規則已經預告要修正了已經要預告要修正所以說你是不是這個部分呢"},{"start":10724.651,"end":10747.407,"text":"對勞工釋出一些善意就是說傳統勞工的朋友只有這個部分可以請假你譬如講一個商家來說的話那個為什麼有的是那個公務人員的部分15天但我們是只有8天減半同樣是父母為什麼這沒道理嘛而且這是偶發性又不是經常性的這調整有什麼關係呢"},{"start":10750.247,"end":10776.041,"text":"而且未必遇得到因為高齡化社會未必遇得到所以這只是請假規則而已嘛我請部長你上來來思考一下來調整一下然後我上述了剛剛那兩個提議你一段時間給我一下好不好我們不用拖太久一個月應該可以啦好不好具體來改善薪資低薪的問題還有包括員工的休息的問題好不好謝謝"},{"start":10778.522,"end":10800.298,"text":"謝主席謝謝郭國文委員因為時間的關係所以不好意思請諮詢的委員能夠時間控制一下在羅志強委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案中午不休息繼續諮詢到結束為止如果中午的話工作人員可以把便當發下去請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":10809.85,"end":10830.912,"text":"主席有請部長請何部長好請問部長根據內政部移民署統計到今年7月我國的外籍移工有多少人我們今年已經到80萬人了80萬嗎對這是我們自己的統計這是什麼"},{"start":10832.083,"end":10847.654,"text":"這是我們自己的統計產業移工是55萬社福移工是24萬所以總計79萬3544人到7月了所以將近80萬那想請教部長目前為止私聯移工的人數是多少"},{"start":10849.106,"end":10874.725,"text":"那8萬8千多啦那私聯移工佔移工的總數是11%它相較於110年7月私聯總數的52,632人就增幅高達了66%那也是因為當時面對所謂的居高不下的這個私聯移工數所以內政部移民署在"},{"start":10876.386,"end":10891.281,"text":"2023年2月到6月辦理了《擴大預期停居留外來人口自行到案專案》這個專案有多少失聯移工到案?雖然是移民署,但是跟你們還是有點關係啦"},{"start":10894.451,"end":10923.149,"text":"容我再確認一下好嗎?再可以提供給委員一萬四千多位失聯移工到案可是我的疑問的問題是專案結束其實發現統計失聯移工總數是不減反增反而比專案前還多了兩千雖然有一萬四千名失聯移工到案但是比專案前還多了兩千個失聯移工有人說到案的人還要再加個兩千"},{"start":10924.366,"end":10953.389,"text":"怎麼會發生這種情形,您覺得呢?因為,委員您的意思就是說,這可能是因為我們再來引進的移工是增加的,持續在增加事實上,逃逸移工的比例不斷上升到目前為止,請問勞動部拿出什麼樣的方法來解決逃逸移工的問題然後,有什麼樣的一個做法有辦法去減少這樣的一個暴增的趨勢呢?"},{"start":10954.79,"end":10982.517,"text":"跟委員報告就是您講的那一個所謂大幅增加是相較於疫情前對那麼你如果從疫情後到現在其實是下降的就是112年您看失聯率大概3.1萬人發生率是4%已經較111年度4.1萬人發生率5.96%有明顯下降那麼我們今年一到八月大概是2%其實你在看移工的問題"},{"start":10984.097,"end":11002.842,"text":"當然你講說所謂的成長率是一個數字指標嘛對不對那如果成長率那個增幅有下降當然是一個好的正向指標但是實際上人數不斷的擴張這也是另外一個指標嘛所以我希望我們的勞動部還是要再多加的努力一下可以嗎"},{"start":11003.482,"end":11026.168,"text":"是當然我們會跟移民署一起來努力下一個部分我們知道移工對台灣經濟有很大的幫助所以可以有效解決我們台灣的缺工問題可是現在每10個移工有一位失聯他對治安、經濟跟社會的衝擊就會產生很多一些有連動的影響檢證署在去年就示警近年移工出現"},{"start":11027.468,"end":11041.318,"text":"幫派化的趨勢成為治安的隱患但是前任的許明春部長說移工的犯罪率只有國人的一半好像要大家放心我覺得請問部長你覺得這個你能放心嗎"},{"start":11042.82,"end":11064.899,"text":"對,是有移工的所謂的犯罪的問題我覺得警政署的提醒值得重視確實移工在某些他的確實有犯罪化、集團化的情況而且裡面也不乏可能有幫派確實是有的那這部分我們也是一直建議移民署應該要加強開查處而且絕不容許"},{"start":11065.319,"end":11081.567,"text":"所以基本上我覺得勞動部跟移民署甚至警政單位實際上都要有一個密切的一個網狀的聯絡我們最近的副署長還是從移民署敦請過來的我覺得至少這個部分的話可以來去用專業來去補強那最後實際上我要跟部長講為什麼延續這個犯罪的問題"},{"start":11090.712,"end":11115.658,"text":"其實最主要是移工的犯罪人數在10年間是增加了3.5倍2013年是1174件到2022年就變4160件那犯罪數不斷上升當然對治安會產生很多影響所以拜託我們的勞動部、移民署、警政單位這部分可能也要保障我們國人的安全是,謝謝委員提醒,謝謝"},{"start":11119.38,"end":11141.439,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員的發言現在處理臨時提案總共一案請宣讀臺灣少子化問題已被視為國安危機勞動部等相關單位更應採取積極行動打造友善的生育環境與支持生養的措施原要求勞動部緊速針對《性別平等工作法》及相關法規增訂較為彈性之輕職假議題進行研擬"},{"start":11144.722,"end":11171.165,"text":"並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、陳昭芝、廖偉祥宣讀完畢請問行政單位有沒有意見報告委員沒有意見沒有意見好感謝OK嗎好那沒有意見我們就照案通過臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":11183.854,"end":11186.96,"text":"主席好有請勞動部部長請何部長委員好部長好我要請教你一下我們的19"},{"start":11197.58,"end":11200.963,"text":"其實1955就是我們對移工很重要的一個社會支持系統"},{"start":11218.479,"end":11232.294,"text":"我們透過幫他聆聽他的問題然後透過專人輔導那麼希望能夠移工他減緩在這裡社會適應上的各種狀況那我想這方面應該是有正面的啦是"},{"start":11233.651,"end":11253.626,"text":"對,大家都正面才要設這個專線沒有正面就不用設了但是實質的幫助就是有限不是只有數據我的意思不是只有數據說我們有多少人有在求救多少所以如果是這個專線有效又可以幫忙的話為什麼失聯移工"},{"start":11256.608,"end":11271.264,"text":"那麼多我們如何解決私人移工還有如何去幫助他們這個部分我們比較關心的因為每一個人來臺灣工作都希望穩定工作嘛不想要失聯"},{"start":11272.024,"end":11291.312,"text":"但是為什麼會造成失聯我們有輔導專線也有勞動部也有各個縣市勞工局都有協助為什麼他們還是溝通不良還是為什麼還要去沒辦法求救才會選擇離開自己的工作崗位"},{"start":11294.812,"end":11316.205,"text":"1955的功能當然跟失聯移工可能是兩個議題當然兩個議題因為他有1995來去保護、來去質詢、來去幫助所以他就跟僱主可以溝通就不會導致他離開所以說他離開了所以我們要怎麼樣說"},{"start":11318.106,"end":11320.287,"text":"請勞動部部長：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及勞動部部長．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益"},{"start":11342.034,"end":11347.358,"text":"請勞動部部長：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會內勞工之權益"},{"start":11355.482,"end":11372.736,"text":"然後他覺得這裡的工作不如他想的賺那麼多錢這好像是一個最主要的原因之一就想跟實際上他們的生活有沒有達到尤其你看在疫情期間失聯的比例特別高就是因為外面的需求大"},{"start":11373.737,"end":11390.558,"text":"移工又進不來,外面薪資誘因提高,導致失聯誘因增加。還有委員,再加上剛剛羅委員也有講到集團化、幫派化的問題,甚至是同鄉"},{"start":11391.88,"end":11400.785,"text":"的誘導也是一個很重要的失聯因素就是我們隨著移工人數的增加他的同儕同鄉在這裡其實上每一個人過來這一邊都希望合法對合法工作沒有人希望是非法"},{"start":11408.209,"end":11431.206,"text":"但是我們的薪資你也說嘛不符合他們的生活他們還要照顧他自己這裡的生活他還要負擔家裡的生活所以沒有辦法讓他們是可以負擔所以我們是這個才是重大的問題如果是我們在合法的工作我可以在這邊生活又可以幫助到我的家人改善我來臺灣"},{"start":11432.066,"end":11444.16,"text":"我就不會去逃跑嘛但是第二個我想要請教一下我們政府友善的就是要個留才的方案但是不友善對於移工就是要怎麼樣變成身為中階基層的條件"},{"start":11447.444,"end":11468.17,"text":"所以這個我們希望我們勞動部這邊我們要有這個法案對移工有幫助但是我們要限於就是老闆簽同意或者其他的條件他才可以留在臺灣這樣子的法案對移工來說看得到吃不到了啊這樣是不是就騙大家了對吧我想要留下來但是"},{"start":11472.071,"end":11479.973,"text":"我看到政府有這個法案我可以去做、去努力、去目標但是到最後是白人的決定不是我的決定這個的話我們希望說要有詳細的還有條件讓大家可以留下來的最後一個因為時間的關係因為我們現在的移工在臺灣因為我們要一個"},{"start":11496.076,"end":11497.937,"text":"並備質詢與建立移工問題：並備質詢與建立移工資金益"},{"start":11516.147,"end":11518.528,"text":"我們今天談的就是移工的"},{"start":11543.354,"end":11543.734,"text":"好,謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":11575.202,"end":11575.982,"text":"主席,謝謝,麻煩請何部長"},{"start":11593.37,"end":11615.795,"text":"您好部長好部長很多同仁都針對今天主題的部分但本席也想跟您就教一下是說針對我們本國的勞工的一個狀況那尤其今天我們看到行政院經濟發展委員會也會召開第二次會議鎖定薪資提升青年就業等相關的議題好那就回歸到是說我們在"},{"start":11617.133,"end":11639.154,"text":"之前去年底好不容易通過這個最低工資法那最低工資法我們也看到說今年有又在調漲希望明年能夠到28,590元對距離3萬元確實還是有一段的一個差距我想請教一下部長在你的心目當中你的期待什麼時候有可能會突破3萬元"},{"start":11641.125,"end":11653.9,"text":"委員我當然希望我們最低工資的條幅能夠每年都增加啦對可是也要衡量整個社會的那個就是的承受的這樣子的狀況我們會來審慎來來處理這樣子對"},{"start":11658.404,"end":11678.829,"text":"衡量社會承受的狀況是什麼當然委員其實最低工資的調整都會意味著你企業要付出更多的成本那這個是必須面臨的兩難的問題但另外一點最低工資其實只是對於勞工朋友最基本的保障其實很多的勞工朋友他也不是領最低工資啊"},{"start":11679.409,"end":11704.175,"text":"那所以之前我們講的是基本工資現在講最低工資但是另外一個部分為什麼會希望最低工資法立法就是審議過程能夠專業透明而且法制化那在今年新法上錄的第一次最低工資的審議我們有看到研究小組他是有建議最低工資最低跟最高的條幅等於是說他還是有個Range可以讓我們的"},{"start":11704.995,"end":11708.178,"text":"請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何有效提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」"},{"start":11720.294,"end":11739.75,"text":"我們沒有訂任局欸其實那個是研究小組的報告研究小組的報告就是當時有明確的建議希望有最低跟最高的一個條幅沒有沒有沒有建議條幅沒有研究小組的報告沒有這樣的我們看到第一版的研究小組報告"},{"start":11742.617,"end":11763.766,"text":"可能我也沒有看到最終版因為當然可能是中間有好幾版中間有好幾版但一開始所以說部長這就是本席今天做的準備就是說一開始告訴你說一開始的時候是有這樣子的一個條幅建議但到最終還是只剩下是說我們那如果說只剩下最終就是一個數字的話那我們跟之前的基本工資有什麼差別"},{"start":11764.286,"end":11791.513,"text":"那委員我們第一個研究小組沒有提供條幅的建議我們那個報告都是給最低工資審議委員審議委員收到的報告審議委員收到報告然後針對這個報告來去做一個討論嘛對對對但我們現在在講說如果說這樣子就是還是訂出一個那這樣子跟之前的基本工資有什麼差別這樣的審議程序這樣的審議過程是是是我們到最後還是一樣那跟之前的基本工資審議委員會"},{"start":11794.145,"end":11808.72,"text":"不過委員是這樣啦其實最低工資法它本來就是因也沿襲前面的基本工資審議委員會的運作的方式然後把它法制化啦憑良心講所以最低工資"},{"start":11809.761,"end":11833.657,"text":"司法離原來的基本公職審議委員的這個的審議程序不會差距很大可是裡面增加了研究小組這樣子的機制那麼這個機制提供給最低公職審議委員會一個比較科學化的評估數據部長您剛提到了嘛就是說研究小組他連提出建議的條幅都沒有辦法的話最終還是要喬一個數字那不就變成是過場"},{"start":11834.978,"end":11852.19,"text":"尊重專業那不就變成是這個是一個過場的一個機制部長我很實在話講你覺得到目前為止這樣子基本最低工資的這樣的一個審議幾次開會你對於這樣的一個政策效果滿意嗎"},{"start":11853.561,"end":11855.022,"text":"就是提出在這一次提出調整到28,590元是 我想是正面的一定是正面的因為這對我們邊際勞工的幫助是非常大我那時候最低工資審議的時候我就講了我們在最低所得的20%的家庭"},{"start":11872.62,"end":11898.132,"text":"他的那個收入一半都要用在這一個他的消費上面所以這個部分是對他們幫助是最大的那我當然坦白講最低工資對所有勞工的薪資提升他是有墊底部的效果可是他未必能夠真的未必能夠提升到可能60%、80%左右的勞工他如果說沒有拿最低工資的部分那一樣的道理我覺得還是拉回來就是說針對"},{"start":11899.232,"end":11920.423,"text":"我們現在的一個條幅是不是能夠有至少不要低於所謂的CPI的年增率或者是說我們每年的一些購買率而照不要讓它變成是說勞資雙方喊價、討價、還價的一個狀況而貧富差距還是持續擴大當然部長你有沒有注意到其實這兩年三年的物價調漲"},{"start":11922.165,"end":11941.734,"text":"通膨是非常嚴重的他甚至趕不上我們的所謂的加薪所以說其實我們現在看是說雖然基本工資有調漲但實質的薪資反而會被通膨影響到退路委員那個最低工資法裡面就明定CPI就是一定要參採的指標所以這個部分我們就是最主要的考慮"},{"start":11943.849,"end":11968.482,"text":"有喔!我們今年的條幅就高於CPI那是不是以後每年都能夠這樣子?正式的我們朝這個目標努力因為這就是我們所看到客觀的一個數據這也是可以避免說因為我們的條幅那反而因為通貨膨脹的狀況心知以為是向前原來根本就是後退因為你的一千塊變薄了你的錢變小了而造成勞工朋友我們應該要照顧他或是給他一個"},{"start":11969.342,"end":11997.632,"text":"最基本的墊底反而是落後的好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝好謝謝侯孟楷委員的發言接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在接下來請羅明才委員羅明才委員羅明才委員不在接下來請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在接下來請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":12007.736,"end":12009.48,"text":"謝主席有請部長請何部長部長你先看這個投影片的文字"},{"start":12019.324,"end":12034.996,"text":"第一個,透過免費的網站分享如何使用來追蹤華人買賣股票的交易動態。第二個,分享利用免費的軟體及APP來選擇基優並可以長期投資股票。第三,選擇適合穩健基金投資標的買入,創造長期穩健投資收入。"},{"start":12038.444,"end":12051.869,"text":"第四,迎向常委所正確心態。第一,穩定比篤一波重要。第二,風暴永遠是主要考量。第三,勝率不如火力來的重要。如果勞工看到這些文字,部長有什麼建議?"},{"start":12055.332,"end":12079.231,"text":"這看起來是投資的誘導這樣子請問那個指示就是說勞工去看到這些文字你會給勞工什麼樣的一個建議嗎應該要慎選啦要慎選嘛因為可能誘導嘛對不對就像部長講的嘛好我們現在先進入到今天的正題"},{"start":12080.734,"end":12107.116,"text":"在今年的5月23日,部長剛剛就任沒多久的時候,我有特別在這個地方質詢說,失聯的移工的問題非常嚴重。當時,失聯的移工應該總數8.6萬,快逼近8.7萬,是5月的時候。那9月22日的時候,移民署公布最新的一個資料,它是說台灣的失聯移工已經達到8.8萬,逼近9萬大關了。其實應該更多啦。這個要怎麼辦?"},{"start":12108.257,"end":12127.117,"text":"那5月質詢的時候我也明確指出齁因為這失聯移工指控列正部的營運署500位多名的專勤隊員在查緝坦白講這個要去把將近9萬的失聯移工找回來這是幾乎齊為的事情我們都很清楚這是一個現狀也是一個現實嘛齁"},{"start":12129.594,"end":12147.941,"text":"所以但是部長你再看這兩則新聞這塗蓋車門害祖孫喜摔車然後後又遭到車子掩蔽這個是10年移工兆頭災難另外一個這是預期居留移工酒駕肇事然後見警開溜最後遭到逮捕壓制"},{"start":12149.361,"end":12170.269,"text":"我們現在齁,總共台灣的移工總數已經79萬9千196人那這幾個月應該就突破80萬了,對不對那私人移工要突破9萬甚至以更高的,那大概就是事件的問題那我實在想說,我們還要再開放他國的移工進來所以全國的國員會對治安"},{"start":12172.29,"end":12194.333,"text":"自然這個項目非常的care重視所以我是在這邊是不是可以具體做這樣的建議因為畢竟勞動部還是就是引進這個移工的主管機關所以是不是可以連結我們的警政署、移民署、保護部讓所有的進到臺灣的移工最起碼法制的觀念要非常非常正確"},{"start":12195.603,"end":12216.236,"text":"是當然可以吧所以我希望部長可以來統籌然後成立一個誇的平台因為他進來他有必要的相關的一些資訊要給他那最起碼法治這一項一定是重中之重好不好好我們來加強對新入國移工的法治教育啦好謝謝部長那另外"},{"start":12217.216,"end":12233.738,"text":"又是一個移工的大新聞請部長看一下就是電力維修缺工然後我們要解禁找移工那這個新聞又引發這個政府要再擴大移工的這樣的疑慮但是我們勞動部有馬上解釋就是電網建設等配電的這個相關的這些"},{"start":12235.66,"end":12248.206,"text":"工程原本就可以依規定來申請移工,從事基層體力工作但若要從事相關技術工作必須取得配電輸電線路或電纜裝修證照所以我們建議,勞動部建議臺電應優先培訓國人或沿纜併培訓在臺橋外生取得相關的證照以投入配電外線中階技術工作,沒有錯嗎?對"},{"start":12262.492,"end":12269.866,"text":"好,我們鼓勵台電建立啦是,要優先這樣處理但是主要是因為這樣啦"},{"start":12272.372,"end":12294.084,"text":"如果照這樣勞動部的意思就是說這個台電的承包商本來就可以申請基本勞力工作項目的移工但是如果要爬電線桿接觸配電這就是不行嘛因為他必須要有證照對不對所以就是台電你要趕快去培訓嘛因為台電的這個配電外線的作業技術能力老化"},{"start":12295.404,"end":12322.37,"text":"是這樣嗎?是,我們還有預備就是給他開放輔導這樣子進來的基層體力工已經過一定程度一定程度年限以後他有語言的溝通能力他已經是資深移工他要成為中階了我們的移工六台九院本來就有那個所謂的資深移工變中階的這樣的一個機制嘛這樣的人我們建議台電可以優先輔導他考照啦"},{"start":12322.97,"end":12330.759,"text":"然後來從事台電這方面的工作我們是預備要給他有這樣子的可以開放這個部分這樣子"},{"start":12331.752,"end":12354.762,"text":"好,因為民進黨執政之後一直在推這個韌性的電網,對不對?台電現在坦白講,如果以那個什麼那個 Google 的那個點閱率還是什麼流量台電都算是蠻高的吧,包含電費嘛,包含這個整個債務的問題種種嘛所以講到台電大家都會特別的去關注這件事情,但現在台電的人力老化嘛"},{"start":12355.562,"end":12376.455,"text":"所以要讓台灣有這個任性健康的這樣的一個電網基本上這事情不解決就出大問題嘛所以應該行政院要把它當成是一個非常重要的一個這樣的一個政策然後去怎麼去普及到這樣的一個能力嘛所以我覺得勞動部如果說就叫台電自己去建立台電自己去培訓這樣的人力這個"},{"start":12378.564,"end":12404.936,"text":"沒關係,我們等下再來討論啦齁不過市委員,這個臺電其實過去他們其實都有培訓的這樣的機制捏但是在我們勞動部有辦法找到相關的這樣的一個培訓的課程嗎?不不,那臺電自己就有培訓的能力了他自己有培訓的能力?他甚至有訓練所他們早年就都是培訓自己本國的技職生建教合作只是現在技職生本國人越不願意進入這個領域"},{"start":12406.697,"end":12432.583,"text":"不然你這麼講因為我是從移工講到這個地方那如果是這麼說那等於是勞動部就是這是你台電資料去處理我勞動部就是不處理也不是所以我在幫忙我在幫忙是說你喬外生以及資深移工啦中階啦就是我們所謂的可以成為中階技術人力的這樣的人因為這樣的人他有一個問題就是說他需要考證照而且"},{"start":12433.883,"end":12450.648,"text":"他要有懂語文能夠跟台電員工溝通要不然就怕出人命啦對所以這個其實是一個需要慎重的問題那麼我們現在是建議他先循中階人力的這個方式來禁用這樣子"},{"start":12451.608,"end":12462.382,"text":"好沒關係我現在就要連結到我們勞動部有相關的一些職人的培訓課程嘛我是很訝異說為什麼沒有把台電這一塊納進來我覺得有點納悶不然可以看這個臺灣就業通這是我們在處理的嘛"},{"start":12468.89,"end":12486.489,"text":"其實委員我們也有跟台電建議是說你其實可以我甚至可以幫你來開班來帶訓你這句話要講啦你這句話不講我就會覺得怪怪的啦到現在開幾班了沒有沒有我們也有跟台電提這樣子的建議"},{"start":12487.33,"end":12515.472,"text":"對啦,台電沒有接受,台電到現在沒有跟人接見也不是說沒有接受啦,他認為他就是要從國外直接引移工啦,可是這個我們一定要那如果是台電的問題,那我就來找台電,來好好把這個事情看怎樣溝通出來沒關係,我現在部長因為我時間到了啦,因為我後面還有一些事情要講你看啦齁,臺灣經貿通識我們跟勞動部的支持應該是無庸置疑的嘛因為下面就有勞動力發展署嘛對不對,好"},{"start":12516.733,"end":12540.911,"text":"所以這個是我們在強化的一個在職訓練的一個網絡嘛應該這麼講部長你覺得這裡面有寫嘛自助旅行國外班這個是課程還是這個課程是執訓還是在培養興趣自助旅行國外班然後一個人學費7,900我們政府負擔要6,320塊"},{"start":12545.034,"end":12570.675,"text":"那我處理又去看了很多培訓看似執訓其實就比較像在培養興趣班我不能講說這個興趣未來能不能變成一個職能或許會嘛然後我們又開了很多好像這個創意手作工藝品這好像有點在社區、龍寨相關的這樣的政府的部門在支持也蠻多的然後他要把它變成一個職訓好像職能"},{"start":12571.893,"end":12586.897,"text":"要間接到一個職能好像又有一個蠻大的一個區塊所以我剛剛才會用台電的引力來講另外一個像餐廳業大缺工對不對這個我們都很清楚我們在餐廳業的相關的這個職能的訓練也幾乎其為"},{"start":12590.953,"end":12614.5,"text":"比例也不高啦比例不高那我為什麼要把這個事情拿出來講因為昨天的諮詢我也已經特別提到怎麼會政府編的預算然後好像在鼓勵人家做不對的事情相對的我們現在一直補助我們在補助什麼補助我跟部長講一下齁有幾個課程也是在這個臺灣居委通裡面顯示出來的部長可以看一下個人財務規劃金融產品分析與實務班"},{"start":12616.835,"end":12629.101,"text":"學會5040我們政府要負擔4032金融正確交易事務班學會8910我們政府要負擔7128股市投資理財策略事務班學會8880政府要負擔7104所以如果照這麼講勞工不是不能投資股票"},{"start":12645.404,"end":12672.495,"text":"同時股票已經是全民運動讓勞工有正確的訊息我也覺得有極必要但是把這個相反在職能的訓練部長覺得合理嗎所以剛剛開始的前面那幾段話可能不想再亂一下嘛我就問部長說勞工看到這些勞工要小心嘛這是不是誘導的情況這些老師基本上"},{"start":12674.005,"end":12691.537,"text":"我們職法署有有有有有TEST過嗎?有了解過嗎?他們在這樣的一個勞動部辦的職能訓練裡面來教勞工做這些事情這些老師萬一教得好就好教得不好是要找你勞動部勞法署負責嗎?還是我們在幫這些老師掛保證這個是屬於這個是屬於職能訓練的一環嗎?"},{"start":12704.482,"end":12718.355,"text":"委員我們來檢討好嗎就是因為這裡很多時候是比如像工會他們主動提這樣的案那適不適合我覺得是不是可以設立一個一個一個一個"},{"start":12719.401,"end":12743.104,"text":"我剛剛有特別提到說勞工要去投資股票基本上健康的我們無庸置疑嘛對不對他們不然辛苦的基本公司還是多了一些相關的一些這些的其他的包容你女總統的薪資加起來可能都幾萬塊而已他可以去投資股票證券的管道我覺得無庸置疑但是你把他放在職能這一塊"},{"start":12745.046,"end":12765.607,"text":"有問題嗎?我們來檢討台灣就業通用的經費最主要來源是就業保險基金還有就業安定基金就保跟就安嘛對不對這個我們把這樣的錢放在這個地方去支持這樣的一個訓練我是覺得真的是"},{"start":12766.625,"end":12795.187,"text":"我們也要輔導這些工會他們在提案的時候對,那個課程的形式我們也是要跟他們要有一些我要再提醒一下部長,連勞化署都有自己相關的課程了署長應該很清楚吧所以你是要鼓勵這些勞工勞動部是也要培訓國外明燈還是要幫你們這個相關的基金、勞保相關基金來操盤不然為什麼臺灣基金通也有,你們勞化署也有"},{"start":12798.599,"end":12822.726,"text":"還是我們要一個正式提案,相關部會都必須要這樣因為這個股票就已經是全民運動了,投資股票全民運動了不然你勞工署、署本部也有啊,你臺灣就業通也有啊而且我們補助的,每班補助的額度,你看都八成一班七千多塊、八千多塊,我們都政府都要負擔七千多啊所以我才問說你臺灣就業通你到底是要"},{"start":12824.025,"end":12847.358,"text":"我們請勞保署來整個檢討好嗎?還是這個執訓勞工要大殺孤海?好,我現在要請勞保署長我們來檢討啦,就是整個包括甚至是署理嗎?不是啊,署長你應該要答幾句好不好?你讓部長一直回答我,我覺得你當署長這樣不好吧?"},{"start":12848.653,"end":12875.377,"text":"我昨天才在問你們114年的總預算新部長單位有沒有新的相關的新興的一個項目來支持這個勞工沒有甚至於現在是預算還沒審有可能還會比1130更少的預算那你把這些錢從救安跟救保來處理這樣的項目把它當成一個勞工的職能你們說得過去嗎我相信部長不曉得這個事情啦阿現在連你出本部也都有勒"},{"start":12877.042,"end":12904.754,"text":"你要等到在野的委員來出來這個多久了報告委員那個剛剛委員提到的我們整個來檢視一下確實我們有一些課程其實如果跟他未來的職能的發展沒有相關性應該是不應該去做這樣的核定這個我們來檢討公衛期待要有這樣的班我基本上我也會支持那你們看用什麼樣的項目是不是新興的項目去處理你把它放在職能"},{"start":12906.564,"end":12907.846,"text":"沒有道理吧!部長要小心吧!我覺得應該很多事情都要再盤整一下吧!"},{"start":12923.834,"end":12943.42,"text":"好,謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在接下來請林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在接下來請葉元芝、葉元芝、葉元芝委員不在接下來請楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":12955.019,"end":12981.209,"text":"謝謝主席。請一下何部長。請何部長。委員好。好。我們叫我給他後製就是要比較快就對了。部長。部長那個。今年啊。今年。就是。"},{"start":12983.967,"end":13005.709,"text":"勞發署曾經有表示過要訂一下移工的懷孕指引這個確實是一件很重要的事情因為他指引訂出來以後可以彙整懷孕前後的相關權益我不知道現在好像還沒提出"},{"start":13006.779,"end":13030.605,"text":"對,他還在草擬中,準備年底那麼現在是草案,現在有草案了準備年底啊就是這兩個月裡面要訂出來啦現在正在跟社會諮詢溝通中那因為就是在這一個所謂的生育給付這一項上面其他社會面向的團體有不同意見啦"},{"start":13032.006,"end":13037.311,"text":"對,有人反對啦。對,所以這個我們還在構思。部長,我剛剛就聽到你們在回復劉建國委員,就是銷股票投資也是公會,然後呢,你做一個指引,"},{"start":13054.505,"end":13083.303,"text":"也不先提出然後也是要先跟社會對話從許民春部長到現在就這6年我覺得勞動部之所以很多政策沒有辦法到位沒有辦法定案就是因為你們扛著社會共識的大旗"},{"start":13084.417,"end":13088.619,"text":"延誤了很多應該要立即落實的政策勞保年改也是像這個指引問說為什麼還沒有也說是要跟社會大眾溝通那問你說為什麼交勞工投資股票也說是公會"},{"start":13113.476,"end":13138.154,"text":"你就直接給工會來我不是說尊重工會的意見不對我不是這樣子不要誤解就是說你行政機關必須要自己有自己的你自己不先拿出來你的政策版本怎麼溝通懂我意思嗎"},{"start":13140.39,"end":13146.221,"text":"哪一個委員有在溝通啊這個移工懷孕指引就是在溝通中然後遇到問題這樣子"},{"start":13147.998,"end":13175.365,"text":"遇到什麼問題?跟委員報告齁其實這個指引我們在上個會期因為當初委員也關切我們在5月就已經提出一個版本草案那因為這個版本草案因為涉及到很多不同的利害關係團體所以我們正式召開過會議那包含僱主團體、移工團體跟一些社會福利團體等等那還有跨部會包含衛務部等等"},{"start":13176.025,"end":13190.185,"text":"那因為在那個會議當中因為對我們這個草案的內容因為事實上我們很希望把移工的各個階段的需求盡量能夠完整的呈現所以很多的意見大概有表達出來所以五月開完會之後我們大概兩個月內"},{"start":13192.248,"end":13211.707,"text":"在陸續的把各界的意見再做一些盤點7月的時候其實我們有做了第一次的修正那這個修正因為我們再跟各界再請幫忙再做一些檢視那這些草案的內容現在已經在收斂就是說大部分的內容都已經有共識那剩下的就是跟委員報比較就是說爭議性比較大的"},{"start":13212.347,"end":13227.944,"text":"事實上就是現在就是家事移工他在這個生育的這個給付的一個補助方面大概會比較有不同意見那目前我們大概就是說也把這樣的意見盡量的再做一些統整我們大概目前有個初步的想法"},{"start":13228.524,"end":13257.563,"text":"就是說對於比較特殊的情況之下因為在生產之後比如說有一些很特殊的情況可能又要有一些新生兒或是說他的身體的狀況需要特別照顧那這個時候我們大概希望能夠有一個社會支持的一些資源能夠挹注來補助那經過地方政府評估之後我們就給予這樣一個我們當然是一定要健全看護移工懷孕期間孕前孕後的休假"},{"start":13258.644,"end":13261.348,"text":"那這個指引裡面呢就是"},{"start":13263.803,"end":13288.881,"text":"被照顧者在看護移工休假的時候怎麼獲得照顧?這個也是一個問題因為這裡面就是兼顧移工的權益但是還有僱主的權益所以我們這裡面也包含就是說這段期因為空裝級因為沒有照顧的時候我們就是包含現在的喘息跟短照服務喘息呢每年大概只有可以使用"},{"start":13289.681,"end":13314.164,"text":"我們現在喘息加短照一年52天52次那移工請假的時間是8個星期幾乎就是一整年都會在這個運期裡面被照顧者的喘息機會全部用完所以這個你們假如說真的要"},{"start":13315.765,"end":13343.151,"text":"要做一個比較完整的質疑有沒有可能跟衛福部討論這一類的事情提高喘息的上限這個我們會來跟衛福部再討論一下我們也希望就是說盡量能夠滿足那大概衛福部這個部分我們再來跟他溝通因為這個才需要討論嘛至於外界的東西"},{"start":13345.491,"end":13360.536,"text":"我不大相信說不管從老闆年輕改革到任何指引有辦法獲得社會一致的"},{"start":13361.877,"end":13377.749,"text":"等於說沒有一個政策是凝聚完共識才推出的那就永遠推不出政策懂我的意思嗎我覺得勞動部就是這幾年比較會在這個委員會把跟社會的"},{"start":13390.831,"end":13415.413,"text":"的溝通當作政策延宕的理由這個我其實是不當接受或者是應該這麼講就是說最少你們要先有政策出來才有溝通的基礎嘛你什麼都沒有"},{"start":13416.857,"end":13435.552,"text":"光是一直說溝通,怎麼溝通?補充妳想要說的,妳說來。如果是勞保年改,我的政策很明確。我已經很明確了。就是撥補。勞保年改,妳很明確是什麼意思?我的政策就很明確了。就是撥補?對啊。"},{"start":13437.782,"end":13460.82,"text":"我的政策就是我們撥補就是改革我已經講過很多遍了而且我不砍年金這就是我的政策我今天原本倒是沒有我今天在講的是整個勞動部這幾年的情況那你倒是自己想要講年金因為時間的關係"},{"start":13467.418,"end":13490.326,"text":"我就先跟部長講我個人覺得單純的把勞保年金改革這麼大的一個重大議題以單一的政府撥補試圖延後處理的時機點"},{"start":13497.43,"end":13524.565,"text":"這個我是沒有辦法接受的你瞭解所以這是不同意見嘛這個我是沒有辦法接受的因為我我不知道為什麼部長可以這麼冠冕堂皇的直接講說你就是撥補也就是說未來你的任期假如是4年"},{"start":13525.97,"end":13543.623,"text":"那就是中央政府總預算每一年必須要有兩千億、三千億來挹注勞保年金然後其他的什麼都不用做討論部長保證了絕對不會砍年金沒有人要你砍年金啊沒有人要你砍年金啊我甚至於在昨天就講過了"},{"start":13554.113,"end":13570.647,"text":"我們搞不好必須要連通膨都算進去看現在領兩萬塊以下的已經在貧窮線的勞工的晚年怎麼保障啊沒有人要你看啊可是單純的一句撥補就解決了勞工問題"},{"start":13579.383,"end":13584.765,"text":"那民進黨才有這間可以撥補那尊軍公教就直接撥補就好啦那就不敢...委員軍公教過去20年已經公保補5400億了軍公教的...軍公教的雇主是國家軍公教的雇主是國家"},{"start":13606.638,"end":13634.34,"text":"我一直都在不要還沒有含那個退伏喔軍公教退伏喔不是啦現在就是說勞工部長你如果是你如果是這樣的態度就表示你不是很想要跟委員會的委員好好的討論跟相處啦我說我說我們假如說撥補可以解決一切那軍公教"},{"start":13635.962,"end":13655.446,"text":"當初就不用改當然部長不從部長就覺得說軍公教跟勞工是有區別的當然有區別最大的區別就是軍公教的僱主是國家那應該改的時候不是應該改嗎不是縱使第二政權"},{"start":13664.537,"end":13672.086,"text":"也要推動年金改革嗎那為什麼改了軍公教以後勞保就一直停著然後部長講的就是好像撥補是很應該撥補是最不得已的做法部長"},{"start":13699.762,"end":13712.192,"text":"我只是要說明我上任以後我對很多政策我都是直接面對的我也不會去拿所謂的社會共識來拖延不是!你直接面對"},{"start":13713.803,"end":13723.647,"text":"然後撥補,撥補就是從許民春開始就一直撥補了啊就是一個不負責任的執政黨在做的事情啊把問題想要留到等到民進黨不執政了再來做處理啊啊不然要怎麼說?不是這樣嗎?委員您這樣講真的也是...也是很有道理啊"},{"start":13743.547,"end":13759.342,"text":"不是嗎?對於等到,等到,欸,萬人之間,啊,啊,燙,燙手衫你再丟出去啊。對,我要明白的告訴你,就是說,這些都是評估過的啦。你除非砍年金,不然我們沒有其他的處理方法。"},{"start":13760.302,"end":13786.757,"text":"喔,就是這樣除了砍年金跟撥補就是這兩種方法另外一種叫延退那延退我們還得看社會有沒有辦法這麼進行對,所以這個就是說我們的工具很有限啦這個委員,這個其實...不然你如果是態度這樣啦你的態度是這樣子就難怪勞動部呢就是在行政體系裡面"},{"start":13788.398,"end":13792.281,"text":"幾乎是不存在的存在者因為你們前後任的部長的態度大概都是一樣的不想去面對問題"},{"start":13809.943,"end":13820.451,"text":"我知道你的想法啦你就是覺得唯一的改革方法就是減少年金所以誰主張要改革誰就是罪人啊你現在講的意思是這樣子啦不是委員這個因為就是廣大勞工朋友的社會安全線的問題不是所以才需要你勞動部啊阿沒有勒"},{"start":13837.519,"end":13861.605,"text":"阿不然勞動部存在幹嘛我的意思是說我們砍了年金下去我們還要去動用社會救助那這個我早就講過了您也不能接受嘛對不對現在是是在說你最少要有方案出來你不能就是覺得波普我說真的啦我看了波普這麼多年我就覺得"},{"start":13863.444,"end":13869.73,"text":"民進黨就是在等等到自己沒有執政了再換別人來處理啦我們沒有這麼消極啦如果這麼消極就不撥補了啦對不對"},{"start":13879.639,"end":13890.469,"text":"所以部長的意思是 多補是一件很積極的作業是啊 而且越補 我們的金額在增加耶6年以來 從200、221一直增加到1300億這就是我們執政積極的表現啊這是為了...喔 是啊 是啊你要不要把這句話提到讓..."},{"start":13901.926,"end":13926.985,"text":"看能不能形成社會共識委員我想這個應該社會的大眾是會認為這是一個負責任的執政黨他才願意這麼做啊負責任的執政黨我也說過我已經提案委員我已經提案要求政府要負最終的支付責任這個是政府的決心可是要不要改革是另外"},{"start":13929.967,"end":13935.539,"text":"是兩個層面的問題我也支持我也支持以前馬政府甚至都沒有撥補"},{"start":13937.317,"end":13964.222,"text":"所以他們失去政權啊對所以我們負責任而且我們單起來不過 普通人如果是這樣的話我們就下一次再談啦因為 因為 因為朝委已經已經站起來很多次了我也不是很想我要一視同仁要不然到時候有的人說啊你那個楊耀武有講那麼久我都沒有站起來沒關係 反正"},{"start":13969.123,"end":13991.609,"text":"時間還機會很多不過最後一句話我並不覺得波普是有擔當的執政黨應該要拿出來對社會大眾做宣傳的一個政績好啦謝謝委員謝謝楊耀委員的發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":14002.694,"end":14016.087,"text":"主席我不會吃醋啦,如果你只給姓名兩個字的委員,比較長時間我都可以接受主席,在場的委員先進,列車政務司案所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊人士先生有請我們何部長請何部長來,部長好,誒,卡住了等一下,還沒切換時間請停一下,因為卡住了為什麼不會跳過去呢?"},{"start":14030.71,"end":14055.036,"text":"參考器部長參考器是是委員好誒?對不起啊這個我們的我們的簡報跟我們本委員會有點衝衝到抱歉啊陳委員"},{"start":14072.838,"end":14082.806,"text":"要不要休息個兩、三分鐘,讓他處理一下?小心、小心部長,你要不要先?"},{"start":14143.046,"end":14147.571,"text":"報告主席,謝謝。我們請勞動部部長。我們剛剛沒有套招,我們在談別的事情"},{"start":14160.944,"end":14180.482,"text":"上週這個時候我在問邱太元部長是問偵測護理左傑醫院人事荒今天我要關心的是放寬橋外護理生留台工作來我們看到一下第一張你們現在推出了中階技術人才計畫對不對你們希望資深移工能夠呢達六年有很高的技術或者說年輕移工他取得在職進修"},{"start":14182.483,"end":14204.253,"text":"這些都可以繼續留下來從事專門技術尤其是取得護學士通過小學生評點的可以在台灣做專門性的技術工作對不對所以這個最後一項前面兩項是移工身份進來經過技術認定或進修讓他可以繼續做中介的技術但是後者是學生進來是不是所以他後來就可以在台工作是這樣嗎沒錯齁"},{"start":14206.564,"end":14229.611,"text":"好,部長,沒關係,你可以用MH工說一下,對,這樣我就好,因為我至少不會問你願意嗎?好,那往下一頁,所以我們看到因為這樣的關係,所以你看,勞動部長甚至說橋外生可以從事中階的房屋,這是指觀光旅宿業,你也同意客運司機跟醫院的互佐也在討論中嘛,所以我們就看到花蓮慈基醫院就引進了第二批的"},{"start":14230.371,"end":14254.452,"text":"非國戶左就是僑外生所以他們現在開始招收僑外生這個政策是部長支持嗎?是,而且已經通過了通過了,對我知道所以我想請教一下那目前這些進來的沒有到醫院現在只能到機構跟家庭沒錯嗎?好,我們往下看可是在看護的部分我們想想看在家庭或機構的長輩如果他生病了是不是要到醫院去?"},{"start":14255.768,"end":14273.715,"text":"是是不是沒錯吧那這些我們在醫院看到的有很多外籍看護是跟著長輩到醫院去幫助那個醫院的護理人員從事這個長者的照顧嗎好所以說我們看一下護佐既然可以到機構去協助這些工作他還有"},{"start":14274.815,"end":14291.002,"text":"從事這個服藥的非核心業務這個能力那你覺得他可不可以進入到一般醫療機構你們現在沒有放寬到醫院喔你們現在是只有到機構跟家庭那你覺得這些人可不可以到醫院去喬外森未來沒有問題未來沒有問題對著麥克風講好不好來我們請署長"},{"start":14293.534,"end":14318.912,"text":"跟委員報告現在衛福部要準備要開放的護理醫護所的中階它是未來是所有的醫療機構都可以包括醫院對都已經沒有說只限於上面的但是目前勞動部只有到機構那是移工那是機構移工那喬外森呢喬外森目前是沒有限制在這個所以喬外森也可以到醫院去對未來是可以現在進來現在可不可以"},{"start":14319.472,"end":14339.192,"text":"跟委員報告,因為剛剛翠北提到那個慈濟他其實不是僑外生,他其實是移工進來,機構移工是屬於第二類的,年輕移工去進修後那所以是以學生身份進來的,未來他們習得福利專業之後可不可以到醫院去?都可以部長是這樣嗎?很好,所以這下我要坐著"},{"start":14340.013,"end":14356.18,"text":"今天我大概幾乎就問的您都接受來往下一頁所以其實我們來看一下機構的雇主跟家庭看護基本上其實以目前外籍移工進入我們的家庭他的華語能力不見得比一個在台灣受過3到5年教育的學生的僑外生來得好嘛部長同意嗎"},{"start":14357.581,"end":14377.239,"text":"對,如果是學生來臺灣的僑外生他的語言能力一定比引進的外籍看護好嘛第二個他的專業技術能力也一定比這些外籍義工好嘛所以讓這些僑外生積極的不要說取代啦積極的來參與到我們機構家庭甚至未來醫院擔任輔佐的工作你會全力支持嗎"},{"start":14378.82,"end":14396.195,"text":"但是我們也希望說這個工作因為我要跟部長說明一下這幾年來我8年都常常在東南亞跑新南向的工作我持續在做我發現很多越南甚至包括泰國部分的印尼"},{"start":14396.935,"end":14413.593,"text":"他們過去只是輸出移工、看護到我們台灣來做這個非技術的工作但是他們現在發現台灣的技術教育非常的好而這些國家本身的醫護的教育培養的質跟量都還不夠"},{"start":14414.253,"end":14435.106,"text":"所以現在台灣很多的護專還有護專五年制護專的學校包括屏東的慈惠他們都很希望引進這些橋外生這些橋外生進來之後五年了語言也好了技術也有了那他們因為不是本國人不能取得醫護師的護理師的證照但他可以到醫院去從事護佐這樣的方向部長你支持嗎"},{"start":14435.706,"end":14460.343,"text":"我們支持支持而且目前就朝這個方向好那您現在大力的支持讓去教育部跟衛福部來處理現在又有什麼問題呢他們的招生遇到了他們在招收橋外生這樣的一個來台灣接受護理培養教育的人的時候呢教育部啊對他的額數是有做管制的您覺得他們的額數管制是擔心他們衝擊到本國勞工的就業機會嗎會嗎"},{"start":14463.057,"end":14480.746,"text":"其實是不會這句話就很好了就要您這句話我要跟教育部說因為一些教育部呢他就常常說啊我們之所以限制名額這考量到勞動部長期以來對本勞的工作機會的保障但是這些人有沒有損及到我們本國醫護人員的工作權有沒有"},{"start":14481.67,"end":14497.258,"text":"如果他們從事一戶左的話因為我們跟衛福部都有關於這方面的所以確定沒有人力的控的那一個因為那個都是有名額的嘛那我們大概也都有了解所以我現在就是關心名額因為教育部在招生名額有管制嘛所以我要問你"},{"start":14498.118,"end":14521.137,"text":"就你認為引進這樣的人力可以解決醫院的人力荒提供我們國人在醫院裡面接受會護理專業以外核心技能的照顧人員的照顧有幫助嗎?也不會損及到本國醫護人員、專業人員有正道人員的工作權,不會嗎?好,那接下來我希望你用同樣的態度來協助我們解決長途或者是區域客運車駕駛員的這個問題,可以嗎?"},{"start":14524.44,"end":14539.746,"text":"可以 我們也開放了也開放了對 我們都提到國發會就是醫院互佐、客運司機、貨運駕駛我們開放了這三類那這三類當中提到國發會也通過了那這三類當中如果他是以"},{"start":14540.146,"end":14553.952,"text":"橋外生身份進來的學生經過學校休業後也可以做這些工作?對,可以。都可以做這些工作?對,可以。很好,我們趕快這個好消息盡量的宣布出去。我有跟交通部長建議,就是說其實這些學校他們在比如說貨運,就是這種運輸物流類的,應該是多可以開班。"},{"start":14560.775,"end":14583.45,"text":"不要只是侷限在STEM的就是那個理工類的這樣子的開班的狀態所以您說交通部長他同意了嗎?支持嗎?沒有,我也跟他建議了你跟他建議,所以我下次找交通部長來支持這樣的想法應該是要跟教育部一起談是,因為現在這些部會他們都擔心說因為如果沒有勞動部首肯他們擔心開放這些橋外生進來我們的職業、職場領域會損及到本國勞工的勞動權益委員這個我們完全配合謝謝"},{"start":14591.657,"end":14608.495,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言接下來請陳瑩委員發言好,謝謝主席,麻煩請勞動部長請何部長"},{"start":14614.299,"end":14640.164,"text":"委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下"},{"start":14641.765,"end":14656.538,"text":"勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予"},{"start":14657.879,"end":14672.884,"text":"這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義就剛剛講的加上這個薪金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的"},{"start":14679.227,"end":14681.728,"text":"以本辦公室而言,對於我們自己的辦公室的助理們"},{"start":14698.854,"end":14726.871,"text":"那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁"},{"start":14729.746,"end":14756.103,"text":"這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了"},{"start":14756.883,"end":14783.958,"text":"那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢"},{"start":14786.18,"end":14798.493,"text":"本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯"},{"start":14800.055,"end":14827.597,"text":"好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、烤雞獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦"},{"start":14829.414,"end":14851.305,"text":"再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本心去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎"},{"start":14852.774,"end":14871.252,"text":"按照你們的邏輯就不可以啊對啊當然是就不可以啊但是但是你們不認同這樣子但你們的邏輯卻是這個樣子的嘛那所以這個報導這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛剛提到的案例所做的解釋我要念一下就是說這個案例就是說"},{"start":14871.812,"end":14890.797,"text":"有一個勞工他在一家公司裡工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元那最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資,那這個"},{"start":14894.858,"end":14897.52,"text":"公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元"},{"start":14910.788,"end":14926.447,"text":"本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼"},{"start":14927.688,"end":14950.911,"text":"那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本薪跟津貼好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都要大家其實很多人關心因為"},{"start":14951.792,"end":14978.613,"text":"我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為"},{"start":14979.947,"end":15002.251,"text":"那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是"},{"start":15010.036,"end":15026.087,"text":"很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為"},{"start":15034.349,"end":15057.509,"text":"依據本期的了解,他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力、真正高薪的原因那良情則莫而居,那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間"},{"start":15059.25,"end":15066.459,"text":"不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也"},{"start":15068.973,"end":15096.229,"text":"其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為"},{"start":15097.19,"end":15119.575,"text":"或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資他不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新"},{"start":15120.396,"end":15128.606,"text":"離清大家回去做點功課用心去思考讓我們的法治更健全做好保護全體勞工的權益好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15134.292,"end":15159.661,"text":"謝謝陳英委員的發言本日會議詢答全部結束委員蘇清泉、邱振軍、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":15171.254,"end":15176.664,"text":"並備質詢。"},{"start":15180.71,"end":15181.651,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":15211.453,"end":15211.473,"text":"議員會議結束"}]}},{"date":"2024-10-17","影片長度":"03:31:00","end_time":"2024-10-17T12:02:00+08:00","type":"Full","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16177","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12660,"start_time":"2024-10-17T08:31:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e75bc8616f11b3287ce1f9dc46489d241c04c64b87e30630aede406f13ec2812e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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start":1744.241,"end":1763.807,"text":"好主席宣布現在繼續開會請議事人員先讀今天的議程一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施進行專題報告，並備質詢。宣布完畢"},{"start":1768.225,"end":1793.413,"text":"首先我先介紹我們議會的政府官員首先介紹中央銀行總裁楊總裁優惠局潘局長花型局我們的鄧局長外匯局我們的蔡久明蔡局長國庫局我們的賀培真賀局長"},{"start":1795.902,"end":1798.464,"text":"金融業務檢查處潘處長經濟研究處吳處長秘書處梁處長會計處郭處長資訊處李處長人事室張主任法務室吳主任"},{"start":1827.335,"end":1829.457,"text":"中央印製廠林總經理中央造幣廠葉木欽業廠長"},{"start":1839.567,"end":1859.823,"text":"財經資訊股份有限公司林國良董事長好,非常謝謝,謝謝大家今天與會的一個參與首先今日議程的一個安排我們邀請中央銀行楊總裁進行業務報告並且就第七波選擇性信用等管制的配套措施進行專題的報告現在請楊總裁進行業務報告跟專題報告請,總裁"},{"start":1871.362,"end":1877.252,"text":"朝偉還有各位委員：各位女士先生大家早。"},{"start":1884.98,"end":1904.132,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天曾邀前來貴委員會報告本行業務跟專題報告自感榮幸本行經營目標在於促進金融穩定、健全銀行業務維護對內及對外幣值的穩定、兼顧協助經濟發展"},{"start":1909.875,"end":1930.624,"text":"以下僅就國內外經濟金融情勢以及大院商議會期以來本行執行貨幣信用與外匯政策等主要業務提出報告另外在這個業務報告之後我們也有一個專題報告 敬請會事指教"},{"start":1936.409,"end":1955.707,"text":"我們這個報告有事先給各位委員我就很簡要的跟各位報告請翻開第二頁全球的經濟和溫和擴張通膨降溫本年全球及主要經濟體成長都頻繁預期明年持續溫和擴張"},{"start":1957.769,"end":1965.174,"text":"S&P Global Global預期本年全球金融成長率為2.7%, 類低於上年的2.8%明年預測的金融成長率持平在2.7%"},{"start":1974.775,"end":2003.554,"text":"二、國際油價只得回升為全球通膨壓力持續降溫第三月、S&P Global也預測本年全球通膨率由上年的5.7%降至4.5%明年續降至3.3%多數經濟體通膨率將於明年降至接近央行2%的目標。放在第四月二、FED跟ECB開啟降息的循環"},{"start":2004.895,"end":2021.02,"text":"BOJ逐步調升利率．人行則加大寬鬆的力道．請翻開第六頁三、近期主要經濟體10年期公債殖利率回升．美元反彈、股市漲多跌少．請翻開第八頁"},{"start":2021.92,"end":2038.585,"text":"四、全球經濟前景面臨諸多不確定因素影響全球通膨逐步的趨緩為經濟前景人面臨各國央行貨幣政策調整不法不一全球經濟零碎化"},{"start":2039.045,"end":2039.285,"text":"第九位"},{"start":2058.372,"end":2075.458,"text":"國內的經濟金融情勢本年臺灣經濟成長將高於上年明年持續穩健成長本行預測我國全年經濟成長率為3.82%高於上年的1.28%第十月本行預測明年續成長3.08%第十月失業率季節性回升薪資溫和成長"},{"start":2087.021,"end":2097.889,"text":"第13月三預期本年下半年通膨率低於上半年明年將續降至2%以下。8月起"},{"start":2099.511,"end":2123.304,"text":"陸續因油料費蔬菜價格轉成下跌以及水果價格漲幅縮小CPI年增益回降至9月的1.82%是本年2月以來最低不含蔬果及能源之核心CPI年增益則曾緩步回降趨勢至9月為1.79%亦是本年2月以來新低"},{"start":2124.564,"end":2136.775,"text":"14月本年一至九月平均CPI年增益為2.26%第15月國內無輸入性通膨壓力預測本年下半年及明年通膨率續降第16月"},{"start":2140.912,"end":2149.418,"text":"本年九月本行預測本年全年CPI及核心CPI年增益分別為2.16%,1.94%主要機構對台灣本年CPI的年增益的預測平均是2.15%十七月"},{"start":2159.737,"end":2169.668,"text":"本行在9月的時候預測全年的CPI及核心CPI年增率分別降為1.89%,1.79%設施明年的CPI的預測。請翻開20月。"},{"start":2179.468,"end":2199.95,"text":"一、本年9月本行維持政策利率不變有助整體經濟金融穩健的發展。二、本行以道德勸說方式預請銀行自主控管未來一年不動產貸款總量改善信用資源過度集中不動產貸款的情況。"},{"start":2208.015,"end":2233.033,"text":"二、請翻開二十五月三．本行第七次調整選擇性信用管制措施．並搭配調升存款準備率．進一步強化管理銀行信用資源．抑制房市突擊與囤房行為．並引導信用資源優先提供．無自用自宅者過屋貸款．請翻開二十七月"},{"start":2234.281,"end":2261.939,"text":"卦吾山本年九月本行搭配調升存款準備率0.25個百分點透過加強貨幣信用資數量管理以強化本行道德勸說及本次選擇性信用管制措施成效將有助進一步減緩信用資源流向不動產市場二十九月四本年迄今新台幣兌美元貶值為相對主要貨幣匯率穩定"},{"start":2265.421,"end":2280.985,"text":"從本年迄今國內匯市美元需求大於供給新台幣對美元貶值4.45%同期間國內匯市出現美元超額需求本行進場調節禁賣匯90.6億美元以維持國內匯市穩定新台幣對美元貶值5.29%"},{"start":2289.704,"end":2316.949,"text":"30月1月2日本年以來．國內匯市走勢都由國際美元走勢及外資進出所主導．多數期間外資與國內資金流向股市支撐台股大漲之際．獲利了結部分持股並匯出資金．部分時期因而出現股匯市不同步"},{"start":2320.106,"end":2340.652,"text":"二、三十二月卦吾山2023年迄今新來幣兌美元貶值幅雖大於多數主要貨幣為新來幣波動幅度較小二、三十四月卦吾四本年九月底本行外匯存底較上年底增加主要反映本行外匯存底投資運用效益"},{"start":2346.335,"end":2353.727,"text":"請各位觀看我們的第二部分第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施專題報告"},{"start":2355.704,"end":2378.3,"text":"本行於本年9月20日調整中央銀行對金融機構辦理不動產抵押貸款業務規定,以下下稱本規定。二、本年10月9日本行發布本行選擇性信用管制規範之協助措施．它的要點第一、貨物一49月"},{"start":2379.441,"end":2398.673,"text":"自然人因據承取得之房屋及房貸不計入本規定這款人名下房屋數及房貸戶數一及自然人只有據承取得之房屋者新生貸之過屋貸款非高價住宅貸款不受本規定的限制"},{"start":2399.614,"end":2416.849,"text":"告二、自然而然有房屋者應有實質的換屋需求,兼與曾代金融機構確決約定下列數項後,新生代之第一戶或第二戶過屋貸款不受本規定的相關限制。"},{"start":2419.38,"end":2437.67,"text":"第五十月有關本行協處措施之詳細內容本行並已公告於本行網站至於民眾對本規定或協處措施有不明瞭或因個案複雜而需協助者本行亦已設置14條專線提供協助"},{"start":2446.283,"end":2468.372,"text":"則與以上僅就國內外經濟金融情勢．以本行主要業務及專題報告提出簡要的簡報至於本行調節金融通貨發行．外匯管理及經理國庫等業務概況則置於賦入進請著參本行捐付促進金融穩定健全銀行業務．"},{"start":2470.531,"end":2494.167,"text":"維護對內及對外幣值的穩定堅固協助經濟發展之法定職責隨時密切注意國內外經濟金融形勢的發展妥適應用各種政策工具以達成政策目標本行業務述呈各位委員鼎助與支持謹藉此機會表達衷心感謝之意今後仍請各位委員實事指教謝謝"},{"start":2498.373,"end":2522.217,"text":"好,謝謝總裁那現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告每位出席的委員花言的時間是8分鐘必要的時候我們延長是2分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘那今天上午10點截止花言登記現在依登記的順序請登記第一位林德虎委員質詢是"},{"start":2537.945,"end":2543.953,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請這個央行的楊總裁好總裁"},{"start":2555.024,"end":2582.863,"text":"林委員早總裁你早總裁我請教因為央行為維持金融穩定及健全銀行的業務希望資金不要過度流向不動產市場那現在演變成影響房市最大的黑手正在辦理房貸的部分金融消費者也因為貸款受挫而把矛頭對向央行"},{"start":2584.864,"end":2607.21,"text":"總裁媒體下標第七波信用管制是金龍你的名字金龍海嘯不是龍之的龍現在黃代錦說信用管制重篡黃氏交易量位於金龍海嘯第一排的黃仲業近期交易狀況慘不忍睹請問你認為黃仲業的狀況是正常嗎"},{"start":2614.16,"end":2627.793,"text":"我跟委員報告那我想我們的報告在我們的報告裡面我們有充分說明為什麼我們會做這個第七波的選擇性信用管制措施"},{"start":2628.914,"end":2643.093,"text":"那事實上呢我們也都知道就是說在前一年我們的一個房市太過熱了太熱了那所以呢也就是說在太熱的情況之下呢我總覺得讓它擴大讓它冷卻下來"},{"start":2647.899,"end":2673.941,"text":"這個就長期我們的房地產的市場我個人還有包括我們的委員會都覺得這是好的那個楊總裁因為上個月央行記者會說明房市管制措施時總裁你強調央行要打擊房價上漲的預期心理那請問你認為現在是不是已經到達房價上漲預期心理的臨界點"},{"start":2676.439,"end":2698.807,"text":"我想就是說在一直房市在房價一直高漲的過程當中就是說它一直上去那我們就金融穩定的一個觀點來看我們確實是有一點憂慮所以呢我們就是說做了這個第七波的選擇性信用管制我們希望我們的這個預期心理能夠緩轉回來"},{"start":2702.808,"end":2728.661,"text":"那這個預期心理要緩轉呢是不大容易的是不大容易的我們希望就是說藉這一次還有包括就是說財政部的的屯房稅還有就是平均地權內政部的像這些的措施呢慢慢的要發酵以後呢這樣這個預期的心理能夠緩轉回來慢慢的能夠就是說能夠soft landing能夠江總裁"},{"start":2729.161,"end":2751.338,"text":"那你認為在哪種情況下有可能發生國內黃式泡沫化?我想以目前來看我覺得因為以目前我們銀行體系還是算是非常的健全的所以我們總覺得如果在這個時刻來出手的話也許是時間是會比較好"},{"start":2753.84,"end":2772.81,"text":"不要就是說等到後面那邊的時候才出手那這不好所以說總裁你認為他不會泡沫化嗎?我想泡沫這個是很難去定義的但是畢竟就是說我們所看到的是預期心理太強那他的房價也是上漲的速度太快"},{"start":2774.03,"end":2799.095,"text":"那這個泡沫要怎麼去定義實在是也很難那你認為又或者是有哪些因素催化這個稚雞皇室泡沫化的可能性呢會不會當然就是說如果說預期如果說預期這個還是在強調預期就是說預期他的房價都一直在上漲的時候呢那麼大家就會拼命的去買房子"},{"start":2800.014,"end":2815.379,"text":"那這個就很容易就是催化了這個他的泡沫那個總裁今年3月中旬央行業務報告時你曾說健全皇室方案需要跨部會的合作同意政策要有一致性"},{"start":2816.559,"end":2842.55,"text":"並表示央行選擇性信用管制目的並非抑制整個台灣的房價在意的是金融的穩定那如果房價上漲金融依然相當穩定央行會抱持這個謹慎的態度總裁那因為經過半年的時間央行也持續推出對健全房市的方案或做法而且"},{"start":2844.07,"end":2863.286,"text":"選擇性的信用管制力道似乎越來越重的這種跡象那我請問央行是不是認為國內房市整個發展的狀況已經有出現對金融穩定產生動搖的跡象所以才會加重來管制這樣的一個做法"},{"start":2864.727,"end":2888.457,"text":"我們是擔心持續的下去的話是不好對整個我們的房地產的一個長期的健全的發展是不好的對金融穩定它是一種威脅所以我們必須要做未雨綢繆要必須在事先的時候來出手然後抑制這個房價上漲的預期心理總裁"},{"start":2889.997,"end":2904.697,"text":"如果有過去像日本資產的一個泡沫美國次貸的這種危機以及近年來中國房地產的問題哪種狀況是我們現階段需要作為借鏡的"},{"start":2905.037,"end":2930.432,"text":"您認為呢?我想就是說日本跟美國這個情況呢都非常的清楚啦也就是說一開始的時候大家對於這個房地產的那個預期的心理政府沒有做很好的一個沒有很很謹慎的去處理它它導致了它的泡沫它垮下來那中國大陸呢它的出所呢是"},{"start":2932.393,"end":2957.55,"text":"可能是有一點太慢有一點太慢然後而且出手太重才導致現在他現在你看看我看看就是說他現在有一點就是說要讓他要再上來的那個力道好像是不足的是不足所以我總覺得中國大陸的這個案子是值得我們去接近的"},{"start":2958.871,"end":2975.04,"text":"那個總裁如果沒有那你認為幾波的選擇性信用管制措施下來會不會讓外界感覺政府的做法是高高級取輕輕放下會不會也不會啦我想是就是說到目前為止"},{"start":2976.04,"end":2984.306,"text":"這是我剛才所說的就是說財政部的屯房稅還有就是內政部的一個平均地權還有專業銀行的選擇性信用管制還有金管會的一些的措施我覺得呢應該我們你目前如果說這樣的持續的謹慎的來推動的話呢我覺得呢我們的我們的房地產應該還是會賺錢的所以說總裁認為不會說高高級級輕輕放下也不會應該也不會那個總裁又或者讓投機客"},{"start":3005.78,"end":3028.289,"text":"施定政府變成小雞的遊戲中轉彎逃跑的懦夫角色會不會我想也不會啦因為報告就是我跟委員報告就像我們這一次對於就是說已經有房子的然後他要身帶第一副的這個我們就要我們就用那個什麼寬限期就禁止寬限期"},{"start":3029.99,"end":3033.174,"text":"那進寬限期就是說防止他用寬限期來做槓桿然後不斷的在突擊像這種也不會是輕輕高高舉上輕輕放下我覺得這一次這一個算是蠻重要的總裁"},{"start":3052.253,"end":3071.046,"text":"因為媒體報導央行宣布祭出第七波選擇性信用管制被視為史上最重房市管制的政策那震驚整個市場更是楊總裁直接向投資客宣戰展現去除房市過度的槓桿"},{"start":3072.287,"end":3098.74,"text":"的決心那總裁出眾手打草王有名義代表擔憂恐怕濫殺無辜所以說你說會在一個月內盡快提出配套必要時將對所謂的無辜者給予協助或是這個提出排除的條款會持續聽取各方的意見那我請問總裁央行推出選擇性信用管制的"},{"start":3099.86,"end":3119.18,"text":"做法前對外界所指可能出現無辜者有沒有一定的瞭解?事實上呢我們因為我們幾波下來的時候呢多多少少我們都會知道就是說哪一些我們必須要注意他的比如說換房子的"},{"start":3123.163,"end":3149.933,"text":"換王子的你看我們上一波我們就已經把它排除掉了然後呢事實上呢繼承者事實上我們以前我們也都有注意到只有說當時呢我們沒有對這個第一戶我們沒有對第一戶啊然後沒有房沒有房貸那現在他要房貸的時候我們給他就是限制了寬限體事實上呢這個我們就因為以前有注意但是我們對這一個我們沒有實施管制嘛"},{"start":3150.313,"end":3164.93,"text":"所以這一次管制的時候呢我們也事實上我們老早我們也有想到這個意思這樣齁是是是又或者採取預告性的做法一邊威嚇一邊試水溫再來排除所謂無辜者"},{"start":3165.47,"end":3192.315,"text":"目的就是要對投機客這個勿忘勿重是不是這樣子是是是沒錯因為現在有公股銀行表示將會爭取這個繼承房屋以小換大等兩類換屋族可被排除在簽竊結束配套下可獲寬限期那我請問總裁你認為做法可行嗎我可行啊可行喔當然可行對"},{"start":3193.736,"end":3204.845,"text":"我認為配套措施應該要早日提出來讓大家瞭解好不好謝謝謝謝林德虎委員接著請吳秉瑞委員發言"},{"start":3219.281,"end":3222.744,"text":"主席麻煩請央行楊總裁是,楊總裁吳委員早總裁早是我們海峽對岸的中國是那個經濟狀況非常的糟糕是那各種亂象看到他其實就是已經在一個通縮的通貨緊縮的狀況所以他做禁用非常大的力道"},{"start":3247.645,"end":3263.483,"text":"那個資金超級寬鬆．包括等於是央行拆借大量的資金給銀行．然後銀行可以讓這些上市公司．這個經營者跟大股東可以買入股票．然後再直接然後再買"},{"start":3265.744,"end":3289.39,"text":"這個就是可以循環的加倍槓桿加上他又宣布3年內要印6兆元人民幣的長期國債等等各種跡象這就是他的貨幣政策已經是沒有定毛了他現在高興印多少就印多少這個會造成什麼樣子的影響"},{"start":3290.949,"end":3317.355,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上很多的國家包括美國當時在financial crisis他所做的一個措施也是有類似的一個做法所以中國大陸他現在面臨的一些的問題國內的一些內需還有通說剛剛委員所說的他是希望在貨幣政策跟財政政策"},{"start":3319.076,"end":3347.97,"text":"特別是這兩個因為這兩個也許會速度會比較快至於就是說結構性的改變那可能要很慢所以他這兩個他要實施那實施這個事實上是不是能夠達到這個效果有些時候我們可以拭目以待我們也可以看看就像日本日本的時候他也是非常寬鬆的貨幣政策但是他到最後他也要經過10年20年甚至現在30年他慢慢再上來了"},{"start":3348.47,"end":3369.019,"text":"有人說中國的狀況比日本更嚴重日本雖然這個有所謂的失落了30年那他的泡沫經濟破裂但是日本的產業很多是外移到全世界其他地方去投資所以他是有辦法還有維持住日本財富的元氣可是中國這種"},{"start":3371.6,"end":3384.225,"text":"狀況他事實上因為他是一個極權國家他是一個用政府用政治的手段大量的干預經濟跟還有剛剛講的這些財政作為對那"},{"start":3385.165,"end":3385.405,"text":"對,沒有錯是"},{"start":3402.105,"end":3420.069,"text":"那這個政府的財政狀況這麼差還在一直用這個大量的補貼然後大量的生產低價傾銷全世界引起全世界的貿易摩擦現在各國都在對他提起很多的關稅或是對於他個別產品傾銷的這個反傾銷的這個特別關稅甚至"},{"start":3426.01,"end":3441.744,"text":"美國總統在三個禮拜就要選了川普如果當選宣稱中國所有的貨物至少都要60%以上的關稅是是那這個對全球化當然是不是一件好事啦對對那這就是大家又提高了自己關稅的"},{"start":3443.63,"end":3459.05,"text":"說以前的數據叫關稅壁壘那製造了這個世界貿易之間的困難但是這個病的根源是因為中國不尊重世界的這個生產秩序不照照理來講有多少的需求我再做多少的生產"},{"start":3460.271,"end":3489.367,"text":"這中間應該有一個合理的調控結果他沒有他的生產管生產然後計劃經濟我反正生產我要到達多少目標你看現在全世界的大宗物資尤其是傳產的幾乎都被中國修理這麼慘可是在這樣的狀況之下中國的房地產崩潰中國的通貨緊縮用大水漫灌無毛印鈔的方法的財政手段跟這個金融的手段就試圖要去拉伸"},{"start":3490.916,"end":3507.081,"text":"總裁坦白講我個人認為是悲觀啦他這個短期效果或許上海A股你短期時間中國硬是要撐住他讓他上漲但是他的歷史過程大家都注意在看"},{"start":3508.424,"end":3532.965,"text":"他因為用上海A股要上場的過程中吸引了非常多20幾歲30歲的年輕人到網路上P2P的借貸然後到銀行去信用貸款就衝進去股市結果現在大量套牢阿結果這些年輕人他的信用就等於破產了嘛所以"},{"start":3535.123,"end":3556.08,"text":"這個亂象我們看在眼裡但是我們要他山之石可以攻錯不好的例子我們也要學我們要知道說這是不可以的所以過度的宣傳因為現在網路很厲害過度的宣傳或是過度的政府做多都有可能會引起這種亂象"},{"start":3559.418,"end":3576.98,"text":"就你的觀點來看未來要如何收拾?報告委員我總覺得那個委員講到這個貨幣政策的時候我也深感同意就是說貨幣政策的一個實施要非常的謹慎"},{"start":3578.081,"end":3604.124,"text":"要非常的謹慎特別就是說有一點在用資金來拉拔這個如果說在沒有經濟基礎基本面支持的情況之下要來拉拔的時候這個時候要非常小心所以貨幣政策在整個的國家的金融經濟的穩定裡面它也是扮演一個很重要的一個角色"},{"start":3605.425,"end":3627.561,"text":"那其實如果在一般照正常化經濟貿易的國家國家的政策也不一定馬上就能夠撼動他的財政這些金融政策我舉一個例子日本首相石破茂上台之後他認為安倍三屆至今寬鬆的時代應該已經要做一個終結因為日本股市也漲到快要4"},{"start":3628.882,"end":3656.209,"text":"四萬點然後日本最近這幾個月其實開始出現通膨的狀況所以他是要打算應該要緊縮貨幣然後所以有一陣子日幣升值到對美金一百四十幾塊嘛對一美元嘛但最近又掉下來啦又掉到一百五十幾所以也不見得說政府的主觀的想法就能夠去完全的引導這樣的貨幣貨幣的狀況因為大家如果在全世界裡面"},{"start":3656.969,"end":3676.235,"text":"要正常的遊戲規則之下我們是要遵照世界的規範啊也不是你想怎麼幹就怎麼幹的是沒有錯沒有錯那日本的狀況你覺得會怎麼樣日本的狀況現在就是說他一直在強調的就是說他的一個薪資跟通膨要良性的循環"},{"start":3677.355,"end":3693.415,"text":"好那現在也就是說他的通膨上漲的時候呢他的薪資要能夠也能夠比這個通膨來的高但是現在呢就是說看起來有幾季有一段時間是有這樣子但是呢他還是沒沒辦法去確定"},{"start":3695.257,"end":3724.278,"text":"是不是這個良性的循環是不是已經是成立啊完成了所以呢他現在也是在密切的關注當中對就由於你剛剛的講話就看到臺灣啦齁臺灣這幾年每一年都提高基本工資嘛是然後甚至也有幾年年均公教的薪水也調漲嘛是那當然今年預算在審查還沒有過我們不能夠保證明年1月1號就一定能夠調升我們均公教的薪水是那預算如果審查通過才可以是那"},{"start":3724.818,"end":3741.31,"text":"但是就是回到剛剛這個問題我們的基本工資的調升以及軍公教薪水的調升其實也都會帶動CPI的上漲只是那個比例你認為這樣子是不是適當因為這個比例是不高的如果說就工資來講的話"},{"start":3742.671,"end":3764.831,"text":"公司跟公教人員的上賬公教人員上賬對我們CPI的影響不是很大就0.0幾而已主要的還是在基本工資因為工資會影響到它的一個經營的成本然後轉嫁給消費者不過整個來評估一下的話它也是差不多會0.1幾而已"},{"start":3766.933,"end":3792.923,"text":"所以基本上不會黑信你剛剛的報告喔對所以你對明年的CPI的預設是1.8、1.8多這個是一個很好的數字啦是但是明年就剛剛講的CPI的上漲裡面包括基本工資的調漲軍工教的調漲另外我們今年年底開始要開始討論碳稅那也有一部分碳稅要開增這幾個都是導致CPI會上漲的因素"},{"start":3793.443,"end":3809.174,"text":"那在這樣的累加之下你有信心明年的CPI只有到1.8級嗎?我們暫時目前我們的估測是這樣子的不過我們會慢慢的因為我們每季每季都會做一些的調整我們會密切的注意它"},{"start":3809.794,"end":3825.921,"text":"對,那另外就是說我們最近也有花了一些錢在控制我們的購買美金啊控制我們的幣值的穩定這穩定在這是很好但是你知道美國用三個標準在看待我們有沒有操縱這個匯率那我們每一年都有兩個"},{"start":3828.022,"end":3844.256,"text":"還是要跟美國加強溝通嗎?我們會我們會我們持續齁我們跟美國財政部的互動呢非常良好總裁我覺得你能夠把這個財政政策做得這樣穩健我是很欽佩啦希望能夠繼續努力是一個很好的總裁謝謝好謝謝秉瑞那接著請陳益臻委員質詢"},{"start":3858.533,"end":3862.034,"text":"主席,我們請總裁喔好,請總裁早安早我們看到賴總統宣誓要讓台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心我們金管會同時也端出一個六年期的五大具體計畫那在一個台灣上市櫃協會的東方領袖講座裡頭"},{"start":3885.944,"end":3903.693,"text":"這個企業交友提出來就是說台灣可不可能放寬外匯管制那彭卓議士說會尊重尊重央行嘛那盡量溝通是那央行對於這個賴總統所提出來這個打造台灣成為亞洲亞洲資產管理中心這個政策支持嗎"},{"start":3904.753,"end":3906.895,"text":"首先我要澄清一下,事實上我們是外匯管理而不是外匯管制"},{"start":3923.588,"end":3948.867,"text":"外匯管理,鬆綁一點支持嗎?那當然是,外匯管理我們會持續的事實上我跟委員報告事實上我們的外匯管理說實在是很輕的很輕?是,那個資金的進出說實在你看看外資要進來來來來,我們來看看你們寫的這個報告裡頭有提到這個你們說支持打造台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心"},{"start":3949.608,"end":3964.244,"text":"那但是對於這個這個外匯的部分你說外幣資金已經完全自由了是然後接著外匯商品已經相當開放對但是涉及新台幣匯率者央行"},{"start":3965.385,"end":3965.945,"text":"我們現在國家要設這個金融特區嘛"},{"start":3992.894,"end":4013.689,"text":"現在沒有外國人依照自由貿易港區設立管理條例的這個10條控股公司因為有人跟我認為說是因為這個規定僅能辦理不涉及新台幣的外幣的匯兌還有外幣的交易那如果未來開放金融特區的時候那你們的說法是外幣跟外幣比如說美元跟歐元之間的這個你們不管嘛"},{"start":4014.509,"end":4020.956,"text":"但是涉及新台幣的部分是不是有進一步開放的可能呢還是說你們還是會以避險這個原則來去做相關的管理我們來看看他的情況他是到底是怎麼樣要來避險的事實上以現在目前的避險的工序也是蠻多的"},{"start":4034.77,"end":4039.331,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上呢他如果說在這個特區裡面他要做怎樣的一個避嫌那我們會配合他"},{"start":4057.997,"end":4080.263,"text":"我想這個是不會：所以說對於金管會所提出來相當相關的建議你們會支持就對了你們會支持好這樣我們都會支持好那我想請問喔要不然不要只是口頭上的說要支持那行動上對於金管會想要打造賴總統所宣誓的這個亞洲資產管理中心也要行動上具體支持嗎我們亞洲銀行一定是配合"},{"start":4081.984,"end":4107.726,"text":"那我們看後續的發展然後接著你看台灣金融研訓院跟美國智庫最近有進行中國主要以金融經濟手段資訊網路圍攻台灣的兵推這個16日在華府發表報告那金融研訓院倡議說台灣要加入國際貨幣資金和美國簽署貨幣互換協定強化台灣的金融韌性但你知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":4109.187,"end":4133.895,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上呢我們針對這個我們也發布新聞稿對你們發布的新聞是8號的時候說台灣外匯純利充裕啊取得美元流動機制完備啊所以目前沒有與其他國家央行簽署貨幣互換沒有錯沒有錯那你的這個研訓院研訓院是你們下面的單位嗎還是我們下面的單位研訓院是今天研訓院說是"},{"start":4134.435,"end":4162.162,"text":"是金管會金管會金管單位也跟我們政府相關的嘛是是他們唱音說要和美國簽署貨幣互換協定那你們的意見是不用就對了是不是我跟委員報告事實上金融研訓院我個人覺得他對這一塊他不是很了解他不懂所以他一個不懂的單位去參加去美國參加金融所以我們才會就是說這個好像他講起來的時候好像是非常嚴重的一件事"},{"start":4162.802,"end":4179.191,"text":"那就我們來講事實上反正你覺得金龍研訓所在美國跟美國資助所提的這個是沒有必要的啦沒有必要好我確認一下說因為感覺好像這個政府的研訓院跟這個我們的央行的這個不調說法好像有點完全不一樣我跟委員報告因為研訓院對這一塊他不了解"},{"start":4181.152,"end":4182.473,"text":"你覺得我們加入的可能性有多高啊?"},{"start":4196.566,"end":4215.683,"text":"這個我想我們要加入這個是外交部政府要決定的政府要去努力的對對政府要去努力的這個是你無能為力的事情所以我們要加入IMF的可能性很低這個我不敢說你要看外交部有多大能力就對了就這個看政府的一個情況我們收到接著這個"},{"start":4217.384,"end":4224.43,"text":"那你說現在美元的流通機制完備嘛,流通性無虞那請問如果發生戰爭的時候會產生大量礦匯潮到時候還有辦法維持嗎?對於這個問題啊,我們"},{"start":4235.18,"end":4257.147,"text":"我們是隨時都在準備所以我可以站在這裡跟委員報告請放心我們隨時都在準備隨時做好充足的準備就對了即便萬一不幸台海局勢惡化發生了這個所謂金龍研究院他們說的這種可能的一些兵推的情形發生我們也有萬全的準備就對了我們都隨時都有在準備"},{"start":4259.668,"end":4283.568,"text":"本席很佩服你的信心跟美國智庫研究的不一樣可能您了解的比較多啦比較專業啦好那延續院下回來的時候我們來請他來來跟他請教一下本席很支持央行做這個第七波這個這個信用管制就有關打房我甚至認為事實上呃陳如我們總裁所說的"},{"start":4284.028,"end":4301.963,"text":"這個就是因為有那個預期心理啊國人普遍有的預期心理覺得房價就是會一直一直的漲所以很多的資金都湧入到這個房地產這個市場裡頭所以我覺得我第一個充分支持你這個打房的這個政策或者說這個信用管制的這個"},{"start":4302.503,"end":4304.003,"text":"對於健全房地產的這個方案不是只有中央銀行"},{"start":4331.272,"end":4331.593,"text":"我們看看我們滾動式檢討"},{"start":4348.573,"end":4368.92,"text":"那現在有個問題就是說在這樣打房的過程中比如說以我自己的選區金門為例可能會遇到的問題就是說我也是支持打房我也是希望房地產不要一直這樣節節上漲這個普羅大眾都覺得買房子相當的辛苦大部分人都覺得買房子很辛苦這個房貸也過於沉重影響整個經濟的這個發展那像比如說以我們金門地區來講那有些像我們是"},{"start":4374.242,"end":4394.275,"text":"關光現在要以觀光為主我們現在努力開放要到來觀光什麼這一類的齁那我們也是鼓勵業者如果道路客來很多的時候我們的當地的這個旅館啊什麼就會不足我們也鼓勵台灣的業者到我們金門啊齁因為金門本地市場比較可能資金可能比較沒那麼充沛嘛人力業者可能人力比較沒那麼強我們也鼓勵台灣做得好的這個業者到金門來做相關的比如說投資旅館啊興建什麼相關的這個產業可以比如說"},{"start":4401.599,"end":4401.619,"text":"拜訪問"},{"start":4431.599,"end":4444.714,"text":"因為如果要請他們來蓋醫院啊蓋這個旅館啊也是會受到這樣相關的管制啊所以這個部分也會有這樣的情形請央行是不是想一下說這個部分針對比如說地區的發展需要這樣的建設的時候怎麼樣來協助我們這個離島地區要做這個產業的相關發展可以嗎"},{"start":4449.858,"end":4472.203,"text":"我想就是說委員在講的這個因為有很多的個案都是很所以這個我們會來跟我們的同仁來瞭解瞭解討論討論我覺得我們都會基於幫助的立場來解決問題好不好謝謝謝謝總裁好謝謝一貞委員接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":4493.764,"end":4514.009,"text":"謝謝主席有請央行總裁楊總裁是請總裁我先請教今天題目主席排得很好這是第七波的信用管制針對打炒房"},{"start":4516.386,"end":4526.434,"text":"雖然你提出你說有些寬限什麼之類的這個所謂的寬限期把它排除掉但是呢我就請問你"},{"start":4527.918,"end":4549.051,"text":"外界都認為效果好像不怎麼樣沒有感覺沒有感覺你那個什麼叫金龍海嘯楊金龍的金龍阿大家會覺得說有沒有變成一個金色齁這個不怎麼樣覺得不怎麼樣沒想像中那麼可怕你要不要講一下所以你已經要講了再講一下"},{"start":4550.126,"end":4567.193,"text":"你的意思就是說力道不夠不夠正的意思沒有什麼黑黑的對啦沒有什麼黑黑的對我想我們我先講一句話啦其實就是超級儲蓄太多請問你超級儲蓄多少錢超級儲蓄"},{"start":4568.223,"end":4572.826,"text":"我們儲蓄就有幾兆 四兆 以前二點多到現在四兆 台灣的錢太多了 人家也沒有結構啦 你講一下"},{"start":4586.142,"end":4604.917,"text":"我想大部分這是一個概念的問題超額的儲蓄會反映在哪裡呢?超額的儲蓄會反映在我們經常帳順差經常帳順差裡面很大部分的就是我們的貿易帳"},{"start":4606.619,"end":4618.992,"text":"阿這個貿易帳阿大部分這個貿易帳這個是超額儲蓄都是貿易帳所造成的那貿易帳所造成的這些的錢阿大部分阿都是用外幣握油"},{"start":4620.455,"end":4642.549,"text":"大部分都是用外幣外流那所以呢我跟委員報告這些從外幣大部分都是外幣外流這個就是資金的外流我們如果說有順差的話呢就是資金外流那所以呢也不是說哇那你這些超額儲蓄呢都全部到那個不動產去不是這麼一回事"},{"start":4643.209,"end":4666.907,"text":"是他就是用所以我跟委員報告我們的受選內為什麼會在國外那個什麼投資我們的ETF我們的那個那個國內的那個信託這些的都是都是因為我們的這個貿易的順差我們貿易順差就是我有這個外幣啊那個我的時間有限你就"},{"start":4669.21,"end":4682.511,"text":"簡單回答我們讓大家聽得懂的所以我的意思現在有沒有效果啦效果出來沒有效果不會就說我今天下去就有效果還沒有出來嘛我們要慢慢的來評估慢慢的watch"},{"start":4683.148,"end":4683.609,"text":"我跟委員很誠心的跟您報告"},{"start":4701.272,"end":4717.562,"text":"就說事實上呢我們就說喔是這個預期心理非常強的時候呢他說非常強我們現在我們的第一步是什麼我們第一步當然我們不是說要讓他軟著陸沒有第一步是要讓他的這個預期心理要轉回來要轉回來慢慢的下來你剛剛說我誠懇你誠懇跟我講我也很誠懇跟你講"},{"start":4729.72,"end":4753.834,"text":"請問你,心目中總裁覺得要看到成效,多久可以看到成效,你第七波?三個月可以嗎?我很誠實的告訴委員。我也很誠實跟你講,三個月看不到,你都說這不好,三個月看不到效果,不然半年可以嗎?半年可以嗎?"},{"start":4755.361,"end":4767.838,"text":"再看看嘛,我們會持續的來密切的注意到比如說半年內這半年其實很長啦,我這樣半年我自己都不好意思了都看不到成交"},{"start":4769.279,"end":4795.18,"text":"如果半年齁,如果說從某些的方式來看齁,從某些的市場來看齁,半年也許是很太長。但是黃地產,我們的黃地產是比較特殊的。所以你看,我做球給你,半年剛剛好,你看到?半年看一個指標,看指標,就是交易量啦,平均這個價格等等的齁,還有,來來來,總裁,如果半年後,"},{"start":4796.221,"end":4822.252,"text":"我現在差不多,不怎麼樣?你會不會不排除第八波有沒有?我總覺得還是言之過早。還是言之過早。好,就是你的答案我替你把他簡單的小結啦。觀察半年以後再看看。這樣可以吧?我這樣講嗎?你接受吧?"},{"start":4825.493,"end":4837.179,"text":"反正我們持續觀察我講觀察半年啦不必要是10點啦也不必要用10點來那個我們持續觀察啦我都講半年好來這個講到這個我都替你難過你今年什麼都沒拿到A啦"},{"start":4848.1,"end":4875.935,"text":"你現在沒退到A啦你已經四個A了你第五個A了大家想我無勒結果結果來來來等一下找了老半天啦我看你就是習慣啊楊金龍總裁的做得不錯的勒結果勒人家給你分析就是說因為你跟全世界的趨勢啊背道而行人家在人家在講或者不生你生了啊人家在講你也不講"},{"start":4877.296,"end":4894.558,"text":"然後你還被我們被公佈為匯率操縱國的觀察名單簡單來講就是在你的主政底下金中央銀行的政策不夠自由化或者是自由化不夠透明或者是"},{"start":4895.54,"end":4898.704,"text":"我們會變成觀察名單主要的是兩項"},{"start":4909.008,"end":4935.136,"text":"主要是兩項,可是跟外市場沒有關係。所以呢,因為剛剛你這這麼講就說沒有透明啊什麼的啊。你看看我們很透明啊,我們在市場我們賣的,我們很透明我們都報告啦。但是呢我們的觀察名單主要的是兩項,包括我剛剛跟委員報告的就是說我們經常...外貿出超太多啦!阿佔那個GDP比例太高啦!我知道啦!"},{"start":4938.177,"end":4955.789,"text":"所以你不能就說是我們外匯市場的干預什麼的阿老都算了阿老都算了不對阿請問你請問你你沒有那個A的原因在哪裡阿我跟委員報告第一個我們中央銀行當然是我要有"},{"start":4957.118,"end":4977.148,"text":"有那個持續進步的空間這是第一點第二點呢我也是在猜啦我也是在猜我也是覺得很納悶可能是因為我們去年因為他今年的評比是以去年做基本的那個分析的狀況去年呢我們的通膨是2.49"},{"start":4980.689,"end":4981.35,"text":"通膨太高?通膨太高?"},{"start":4998.664,"end":5026.894,"text":"經濟成長率這是每年的啦每年波動啦齁不過呢我也跟委員報告一個數據我們如果說不要用這個用這個連增率的一個方式來比較的話如果說我們是用2020年就是我們COVID-19之前那一年做基期然後呢來看看我們的到2023年的經濟的成長率因為我時間有限了那個總裁你講這麼多是不是"},{"start":5028.578,"end":5032.115,"text":"隱約我感覺到你的無奈本"},{"start":5032.867,"end":5036.468,"text":"我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":5058.058,"end":5065.923,"text":"還是不服氣的接受?還是寒怨接受?寒恨接受?我現在信用可以嗎?我們虛心檢討。寒怨接受。雲林繼續努力。你說不對喔?"},{"start":5075.708,"end":5078.111,"text":"我要在這裡來跟委員報告 我要佩服我們彭總裁 我佩服他"},{"start":5097.21,"end":5106.235,"text":"最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題 最後一個問題"},{"start":5124.963,"end":5147.345,"text":"我因為我告訴委員就是說整個冰天這是整個政府的一個機制對不對但是我要跟委員報告就中央銀行的部分我們隨時隨時的都是在準備所以在這裡我相信就是說在這一個部分我們都是"},{"start":5147.805,"end":5155.288,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說在中央銀行的這個部分因為政府是整體的你站在中央銀行角度那我站在小老百姓的角度你再告訴我們一句話"},{"start":5178.395,"end":5183.6,"text":"你告訴我們老百姓,萬一打造了老百姓資產怎麼保護最好?這個我沒辦法跟各位報告。這幫他們栽換美金啊!"},{"start":5189.517,"end":5192.178,"text":"我只能跟委員報告我們央行都有做妥適的準備我不敢置評這是委員的看法"},{"start":5215.663,"end":5218.445,"text":"謝謝賴司寶委員接著請郭國文委員主席有請楊金龍總裁請總裁"},{"start":5246.451,"end":5271.482,"text":"各位委員長總裁好總裁沒有A、B加也不錯啦日本跟韓國也都B加嘛我們雖然沒有拿到A但也沒有比人家差那就像這個在討論到這個外匯匯率的部分本席今天就發現美國最近都是在降息我們即使本上最近這幾次的央行禮監事會升息又升準那為什麼我們還會貶值"},{"start":5275.003,"end":5280.869,"text":"然後今天呢我看到一個新聞就說我們居然花了90.6億的美金想要逐貶就貶了結果還是貶是貶了5.29%是那主要難道就這麼單純因為整個外資會出250億美金就會造成這樣的結果嗎"},{"start":5292.641,"end":5307.524,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們報告也有講到好像沒有很那麼detail事實上我們的股市表現得非常好我們股市從今年初到現在我們股市是在全球來講好像我們是成長的"},{"start":5315.407,"end":5315.888,"text":"外資操作靈活"},{"start":5330.742,"end":5360.742,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5361.062,"end":5374.125,"text":"本席呢就您底頭寫的報告當中也是您的報告你看喔我特別標紅字的部分也就是整個土建融的部分呢這個成長幅度從2018年2018年剛好是從你那個趨勢圖來說是相對是低點的到2024年就是啪到37.5%37.5%當中呢很清楚的看到你看土建融的部分那就看得出來建商在拼命推案嘛"},{"start":5386.848,"end":5405.627,"text":"所謂的犯狂比例成長都是成長大約六成土建榮的部分大概就高達八成六這是第一個狀況當然就正因為這樣的情況底下你會出手進行第七波的這個信用管制剛開始你的壓力很大但是最近10月10日的時候我們在見到總統在國慶演說的時候強調"},{"start":5407.529,"end":5427.085,"text":"他不會迴避這個高房價強調要增加這個打房的這個效率即便得罪特定的團體也在所不惜那個這樣的情況等於賴總統對你的整個第七波的管制進行了背書那個總裁你不要講一下你心得怎麼樣啊感受怎麼樣有沒有覺得很溫暖"},{"start":5428.285,"end":5452.377,"text":"是啊,我覺得就是說在這一塊總統在國慶的一個的演說裡面也有提到這一點應該是第一次國慶還會講到這個議題這個是很顯然的他對於這個黃地產的市場他也非常的非常的關心是啊才會在國慶裡面提到這件事情"},{"start":5452.797,"end":5469.462,"text":"所以在總統的心目中你應該是得A了啦不只是B獎啦謝謝謝謝謝謝總裁所以不要在乎那個啦重點是接下來這個信用管制有沒有效果嘛因為之前我就看過一篇報導說真正患無的"},{"start":5470.462,"end":5489.435,"text":"就有一個銀行主管移到他經驗的這一個理解大概不到5%但是我就就教於您你當初呢因為有一些壓力央行也特別設置專線有大概有15線後來變成14線到底在這一個半月當中民眾陳情投訴銀行的案例到底有幾件"},{"start":5490.929,"end":5508.261,"text":"我想呢...你們統計的啊?真的你們開放的啊?是是是,我想呢,也是主要的還是換屋跟計程這兩個。主要的還是這兩個。就反映最多是這兩個?那案件大概有多少個?我們的案件齁...你們累積多少個?應該有計算吧?來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":5511.623,"end":5530.036,"text":"各位報告,就是說在過去民眾打電話來申請．對,一個半月之間你們設立專線之後一天的話大概都會將近一百多通一百多通?那這個幾個半月當中累積了大概幾通?大概有兩千、一千、一千多件一千多件?那一千多件是不是受到銀行的刁難?"},{"start":5531.441,"end":5548.257,"text":"因為有些都是有事來問一些個案的問題還有一些是規定的內容問規定的內容他講了多少層數就多半都是諮詢沒有說有受殺無辜的現象嘛民眾曾經的部分有些是說銀行的這個申請的時候有刁難還是有嘛"},{"start":5553.021,"end":5571.143,"text":"那這一部分我們都會有沒有說哪一家銀行沒有他們通常是我們都有轉給各銀行因為各銀行的部分都在排隊他們的確說是因為有量的用塞的部分所以還是在排隊嘛但是後來大概很多的個案大概都排除掉了"},{"start":5571.883,"end":5589.43,"text":"對,都有排除掉,所以都有一一化解。接下來我就請總裁。總裁,如果是這樣子的話,聽起來比例沒有相當的高,但是我們必須說,你現在整個5.8個月當中,你剛剛算了,"},{"start":5589.67,"end":5615.956,"text":"大概增加的5.3兆所以等於是一年增加大概一兆這個集中率資本集中率的部分加上有幾個問題你要小心第一個親安貸的部分新親安的部分他的貸款是到2026年的7月將近還有兩年的時間兩年才會結束第二個我在提醒總裁一個數字內政部就我理解的部分"},{"start":5616.976,"end":5633.046,"text":"預售屋的部分啊大概有9萬戶9萬戶喔而且還不包括今年的檔期今年的檔期有329928加起來往年的案量大概金額大概一兆今年是兩兆這是"},{"start":5633.926,"end":5661.112,"text":"這是第二個問題所以這樣子加起來的話我在擔心在你如果以過去的這個親安貸一年大概是貸款大概6000億6000億兩年就有1.2帳如果內政部那個預售屋所有的土建容出估那還不是親安貸土建容出估的話一戶你跟他代表大概1000萬的話"},{"start":5663.887,"end":5689.92,"text":"很高欸那9000億欸所以就夾起來這兩個plus起來又是兩兆以上欸所以說這個會不會導致於你即便第七波的信用管制之後37.5的資本集中度還往上偏衝高或者是第二個問題是72條之二的30%水位滿位沒有辦法再貸有沒有可能這種兩種現象這兩種現象的時候你怎麼辦"},{"start":5691.721,"end":5695.663,"text":"對我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":5713.872,"end":5726.275,"text":"我們現在的程序呢?現在就是說剛剛委員講到就是說因為他滿水位的嘛滿水位的啊那現在就是說資源有限資源有限那要如何的來分配"},{"start":5727.338,"end":5730.461,"text":"總裁我沒有懷疑你第七波的破例跟效應我只是會讓你說未來的部分怎麼看"},{"start":5744.393,"end":5759.495,"text":"這三個還等著等著你你還有挑戰還有三個狀況新青安的話我跟委員報告新青安應該如果說以我們現在資源雖然有限我個人覺得他應該是可以足以來應勿他"},{"start":5761.057,"end":5779.899,"text":"但是現在就是說建築的這個部分委員倒是講的也沒有錯因為這個建築融資的這個部分有的據我了解這是我從報章雜誌那邊看到的他說因為銀行老早就有已經有給他那個什麼額度"},{"start":5781.04,"end":5800.156,"text":"已經有額度那額度的意思就是說他是已經有簽約了已經有簽約有簽約你現在已經水位都已經2829了那到時候他怎麼拿出來所以呢也就是說這個就是說看那個各個銀行要如何去分配他的這個資源難道要開後門嗎"},{"start":5802.965,"end":5805.746,"text":"總裁我真的慎重提醒你事情恐怕還不是那麼單純"},{"start":5818.971,"end":5834.423,"text":"一個是清安貸一個是按量增加然後再加上那個過往整個金額的換算起來我真的很擔心那個37.5還會往上攀升你要意識到這個問題即便你第七波非常的強而有力但是第二個問題有搞不好會滿水位的問題滿水問題這兩個問題都會同時存在"},{"start":5838.366,"end":5862.42,"text":"那後續的部分你剛剛講到建商的部分建商的部分現在有些建商就出現了大幹趕又大滯銷的部分所以這種現象會變成建商負債過高滯銷率這個過高那以至於這個建商接下來他用這種方式說以後我可獲得的這個利益可能可以期待創造一些本夢比所以以至於他反而他股價也變高"},{"start":5863.32,"end":5864.021,"text":"議員的督促是相當有幫助的"},{"start":5890.698,"end":5909.793,"text":"給主管機關各個部會都有很好的一個建議這個我想我們都會來好好的來注意他所以本席最後提醒您一句話這是第七波我想這三個月是一個很密切的觀察期我希望能夠形成一個真正有效的政策出來謝謝總裁謝謝委員謝謝郭國文委員"},{"start":5933.334,"end":5936.458,"text":"接著我們請代會員委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請那個請我們請楊總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":5949.203,"end":5967.651,"text":"總裁早安我想從去年7月開始我們因應近年全球的通膨還有就是黃價的一個上揚還有升息的一個趨勢所以我們推出了這個所謂的新清安這個貸款的精進方案可是這個精進的措施裡頭我們從左邊這張圖裡頭來看就是"},{"start":5970.643,"end":5992.982,"text":"以前是800現在把它調高為貸款的額度是1000萬那公股銀行辦碼利息的補貼上面那現在是加碼到1.5那貸款年限我們也是從30年把它調升到40年那寬限期是從3年到5年那實施的日期我們就是從2026到7月31號"},{"start":5996.084,"end":6006.859,"text":"那其實應該是說截止的日期啦齁那在這裡要特別就是說跟總裁那個請教一下你知道新青安也可以團購嗎?"},{"start":6009.359,"end":6013.141,"text":"這個情形你聽過嗎?這個團購大家一起買,然後一起其實是在炒房"},{"start":6033.13,"end":6051.903,"text":"這個情形非常的嚴重其實我們從銀行的這個貸款的資料裡頭可以很明顯的看得出來所以就是說在這裡也是特別特別就是以臺北市今年第一期的各區的那個房價跟去年第一期相比的話它成長了5到8"},{"start":6054.525,"end":6075.977,"text":"五到八趴可是我們就非常明顯的看到他房價是被推高了是好那我來講我們台南台南的帳戶更明顯了這個我如果講說北部人到我們南部來炒房的話我從一些數據裡頭一些模型裡頭我們可以很簡單的去看到確實是這個樣子"},{"start":6077.458,"end":6096.14,"text":"我們南部在這一波裡頭從去年七月到現在房價越來越高本來還有800萬的房子再比較就是說我們偏山區的還是偏海邊的可是現在顯然所有的房價都上來了都是1200萬"},{"start":6098.222,"end":6114.258,"text":"所以在這裡我特別就是說跟總裁做一個請教你的第七波選擇性信用的一個管制這六大的措施一次來執行它的時候你覺得這個最大的一個動作的"},{"start":6115.691,"end":6139.419,"text":"打這個草房那你個人認為認為就是說有沒有效我看你剛才跟幾位委員的探討你還想這是要評估嗎我對是啦就是說委員那個指教的對啦就是說我們就是說會做這樣的一個我們當然我們報告裡面也有講的講的有一些的說明"},{"start":6140.679,"end":6159.647,"text":"至於就是說會不會有成效那這個當然就是說在短時間我們看不出不過我要跟委員報告的就是說就是說在這個預期心理那麼強烈的情況之下第一個我們第一個就是必須要把這個預期心理要把它扭轉回來"},{"start":6160.948,"end":6186.83,"text":"對這個是最重要如果說你不扭轉回來的時候呢那那這樣的話呢後面的成效所謂的成效就很難去說了很難去評估了所以呢也就是說第一波是不是能夠讓他冷卻把這個把這個的這個房地產的一個的市場呢他的預期心把它擴大下來這個是最重要的然後呢如果慢慢的能夠下來的話那是最好"},{"start":6187.43,"end":6205.722,"text":"當然,我們也希望是這樣子那董事長我再請教你以我們國家的一個金融市場這個就是金融市場的一個規模您認為有多少資金是在這一次這一次的那個信用性管制的措施裡頭它受到限制的有多少錢?您認為呢?"},{"start":6213.329,"end":6227.702,"text":"這個我們可以看出就是說我們那個集中度那個集中度如果說現在就是說集中度是在37.5左右嘛那看看呢剛剛因為前面的那個郭委員也有談到就是說這個37.5是不是他會下來"},{"start":6230.885,"end":6253.037,"text":"因為他會覺得就是說新青安已經是現在新青安一年有6000億還有就是說建築的融資那這個呢恐怕你要下來還有包括你就30%的這個呢要讓他下來恐怕不太容易我個人也是覺得就是說在短期間呢不太容易但是呢他會慢慢的調整"},{"start":6255.288,"end":6281.32,"text":"郭委員之前的那個質詢是跟你提示的非常好那你也認為他會就是定在這個30%他就下不來了是是是30%就下不來了會有一段時間那你覺得就是你剛也有特別講到那就是說不明確你說是不是三個月三個月我們會看到了就是抑制房價的效果小小的效果還是說要到明年底"},{"start":6283.407,"end":6306.197,"text":"我剛剛也是在講就是說看看那個整個的那個預期的心理是不是能夠扭轉在這一段短時間之內是不是能夠扭轉回來扭轉回來的以後呢還可能就慢慢的會有看到房價會下跌的一個現象軟著陸那至於就是說是要幾個月這個我不敢我不敢在這邊做預測"},{"start":6307.523,"end":6315.952,"text":"那你的義股呢?你看你這個金融海嘯已經把就是買那個我們的9月份的那個買方就是明顯的非常非常明顯就是下降了那這個就是說應該就是說是已經有那個就是說是讓市場齁它的一個熱度呢能夠把它把它冷卸下來啦"},{"start":6327.944,"end":6345.73,"text":"所以所以你也認為就是說央行要共同的就是說來負責管理這個房市然後不管財政部還是還有內政部還有金管會對所以所以目前起碼是走在一個對的路上是我們希望你就朝這個方向走啦對啦"},{"start":6348.453,"end":6360.73,"text":"謝謝我想總裁就是說這三類的人群其實他也得到了一個很大的一個豁免解決的方案就是說不管是繼承還是第一次換屋需求就是確決還是已經簽約了"},{"start":6362.672,"end":6363.212,"text":"所以在這裡再請教"},{"start":6382.657,"end":6395.528,"text":"就是你覺得這個打炒房的力道,可不可以更大?我想我們還是就是密切的注意它啦,滾動式的檢討啦"},{"start":6398.95,"end":6423.64,"text":"那至於就是說力道是不是可以再更大我想我們檢討之後我們會滾動式檢討再做決定我在這裡再提醒你就是說其實如果我們從2022年的第二季再下一頁到2023的第一季其實我們從這張圖裡頭我們有看到了就是說你的第四波到第五波到第六波其實在第五波這一個"},{"start":6424.4,"end":6425.36,"text":"那你個人的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":6445.834,"end":6473.351,"text":"我覺得應該也可以應該也就是說是有幾個因素新清安可能也是讓這個需求增加的一個因素之一那時候的經濟非常好又復甦上來那股市也表現得非常好我想這些都是因素那是不是好啦那你顯然就是說這樣子的一個看法就是"},{"start":6474.471,"end":6493.682,"text":"我們都認為總裁的看法事實上是非常精準可是有一點趨於保守就像美國現在已經進入降息的一個循環那央行的一個決策其實是大家關心的在這個關心的過程裡頭其實我們也覺得央行是兩難像美國啟動了降息的循環你要不要跟"},{"start":6494.702,"end":6509.991,"text":"你要不要跟...我們所以這個委員問得很好就是說我們也是在密切的注意他因為有些時候美國是大經濟體那台灣的情況又跟美國的情況有一點不大一樣"},{"start":6512.173,"end":6527.969,"text":"所以我們是不是一定要跟美國有些時候是第一個可能是不一定第二個我們的利率的政策也是要受到國際因素的影響"},{"start":6529.73,"end":6545.596,"text":"所以這個就是說必須要去權衡他所以我一直在講說你會兩難嘛你要配合國際的情勢的變化那這12月這個審慎你要評估你這個策略你看喔你這個在報告裡頭你寫得特別的清楚喔"},{"start":6546.036,"end":6551.619,"text":"你認為說從113年的7月29號那就是說對美金的那個匯率那我們從32.87那已經升值到32.168所以你報告裡頭寫得很清楚所以我們就一直在想說好那"},{"start":6565.345,"end":6582.971,"text":"你一直在強調就在強調說你一估啦在這裡要跟總裁做一個在探討就是說這個現有的數據其實你是難以反映民眾的體感的通貨就是說每一個人都感受得到就是說"},{"start":6585.155,"end":6597.034,"text":"這個通貨膨脹非常的嚴重可是我們顯然在央行的很多的政策裡頭感受不出來你是不是要考慮繼續的一個升息才能解決呢?"},{"start":6599.173,"end":6615.243,"text":"我跟委員報告,委員問的這個問題是非常好就是說低所得者還有一般普羅大眾跟中央銀行他的衡量的CPI的情況不太一樣所以呢也就是說委員呢中央銀行所有"},{"start":6615.723,"end":6637.441,"text":"全球的中央銀行它的衡量的就像我們中澳臺灣的中央銀行一樣的都是用2%的這個齁那是全部的項目放進去的那委員現在所強調的比較像說17項的那些民生用品還有就是說每個月至少購買一次的那些都說還是很高我講的就是現況的通貨嘛所以就是說針對"},{"start":6640.703,"end":6662.72,"text":"是不是總裁針對近5年的消費者的物價指數的上漲跟近年的破幣的一個政策的影響我希望在一個業內你提出一個報告、一個訪詢好不好好、謝謝光是我們這些退休的老人啦他就是說你這個升息才能照顧到我們這些存款組好不好好、謝謝謝謝、謝謝大會委員子詢接著我們請李燕秀委員詢"},{"start":6681.595,"end":6682.575,"text":"謝謝我可不可以請楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":6691.438,"end":6719.036,"text":"總裁早安我想大家都非常關心打炒房後續的成效的狀況從今年八月份開始找我們銀行業者公股銀行喝咖啡之後還有包括在九月份我們就祭出第七波的這個相關的打房政策到後續的打房政策宣布之後我們又陸陸續續提出了相關的補救措施我要請問總裁你覺得這樣一路走下來"},{"start":6721.999,"end":6738.558,"text":"當時你在8月中提到說三個政策我們要達到目標包括銀行必須要華麗的轉身包括必須要給投資客投機客一個教訓對不對那另外就是我們目標就是讓房市擴大下來這三個政策目標有達到了嗎"},{"start":6741.9,"end":6760.76,"text":"我想我們給銀行的這個報的說服我們是給他就是說他給我們的資料然後．沒關係總裁因為我們只有10分鐘你就直接告訴我你當時設定了三個目標現在你自己一定有評估有沒有達到他的效果"},{"start":6762.245,"end":6784.626,"text":"到目前為止我覺得我們還是慢慢的觀察他我們還是觀察他我也不敢說我們現在下去的三個目標都達到往朝正向達到目標但是目前我總覺得好像有一點向前的樣子往前走有正向的一個發展那你一定有預估"},{"start":6786.178,"end":6796.351,"text":"什麼時候大概會要做這個我很難去預估說如果沒有達到你這三個目標後續我們有沒有可能再進行第八波的打房政策"},{"start":6797.931,"end":6820.306,"text":"我想我們...你後面一定還有...沒有達到你的目標,你後面一定還會想...我想是這樣子啦,我還是要強調啦就是說這個房地產的健全方案不是只有中央銀行啦當然是,但是因為每個部會都有它的政策工具但是在你央行的政策工具就是基礎你的手段我們滾動式的檢討"},{"start":6822.988,"end":6833.2,"text":"總裁到底後續如果沒有達到你的政策目標你會不會不排除進行第八波的信用管制有沒有可能我們滾動是檢討"},{"start":6835.458,"end":6861.581,"text":"你會滾動式的檢討．有可能好那在這個過程當中就是說你滾動式的檢討反正你有的政策工具都有可能寄出來包括不排除第八波的打房政策嘛這也是在你的選項之一嘛有可能嘛所以你才會說滾動式的檢討好那總裁在這個過程當中有沒有哪些是你覺得處理得不夠細膩或不夠周全的地方因為你現在後面才在做補救措施嘛嗯"},{"start":6862.97,"end":6890.245,"text":"我們的補救措施就是說這個換房子的還有繼承的那換房子的就是說在前一波就我們也就有這樣的一個處理的協助的措施那繼承的是這一次因為上一次是沒有對有房子要貸款的那個我們沒有所以總裁如果這麼說的話就是說當時我們在祭出第七波的打房政策的時候有一些例外我們沒有把它思考的更完整"},{"start":6891.599,"end":6920.488,"text":"對不對後面才會有補救措施沒有不是我們呢事實上呢繼承的這個呢是因為因為我們要有低就是說有房子然後呢要借錢的這個我們這一次才才那個啊所以以前的那個呢就繼承的就沒有就沒有我們就沒有提出來那但是呢換房子的這個呢上一次我們就協組措施就有了所以我們這一次呢才會再提出這個協組措施出來"},{"start":6921.308,"end":6935.45,"text":"就是說這整個打房的過程當中我也從媒體上看到總統跟院長也非常關心這件事情從媒體上看到所以到底總統跟院長有沒有找過你開會"},{"start":6942.172,"end":6964.611,"text":"我記得就是說行政院對於新青蘭的這個問題沒有就是針對你第七波你宣布沒有沒有從來都打過電話給你沒有我跟委員報告就是說我們的第七波都是我們實施了以後呢我們的新聞稿馬上送給"},{"start":6966.035,"end":6978.819,"text":"中文舞你在宣布你在去找銀行喝咖啡之後8月30號卓院長說他找你來開會所以院長沒有找你開過會沒有我我我找過你通過電話我們我們我們中菜他"},{"start":6987.261,"end":7011.089,"text":"沒有就是說我跟委員報告所以有些時候我們如果不講清楚的時候好像是說你就對我問的問題講清楚就好了就是說我從媒體上看到因為你那時候找銀行來喝咖啡要提出現代令的時候我從媒體上有看到卓院長說要找你來喝咖啡談一談現代令的問題他沒有說是要喝咖啡啦有沒有找過你"},{"start":7013.07,"end":7016.793,"text":"有沒有找過你談這個政?找過你幾次?找過你幾次?一次找過你一次喔?找你開會?還是通電話?總統有沒有打過電話給你?只有談一談,不到五分鐘談過一次,那總統有沒有打過電話給你?沒有總統也很關心這件事情"},{"start":7037.969,"end":7050.26,"text":"總統也提到說這個事情要好好的了解一下他也非常的關心總統有沒有打過電話給你?也沒有?沒有,他沒有打電話給我"},{"start":7051.144,"end":7060.849,"text":"完全沒有就這個就這個就這個就是說我們道德稅務的這個部分可是總統在媒體上講說這個央行在處理這件事情的時候是過當了所以他沒有打過電話給你也沒有透過人打電話給你他沒有講說我從9月1號賴清德總統說他沒有講說是中央銀行做這件事情是過當吧我從媒體上看到我好像沒有看到這個報導"},{"start":7078.937,"end":7079.137,"text":"你認不認為央行是獨立機關?"},{"start":7093.899,"end":7111.988,"text":"我想呢央行是一個政府的一個制度裡面的但是呢我們的貨幣政策你們到底算不算獨立機關你們算不算獨立機關你認為應不應該有這個獨立性我是覺得就是說中央銀行也是政府的體制的一部分總裁我只問你"},{"start":7112.888,"end":7113.389,"text":"中央銀行應該有自己的獨立性"},{"start":7129.143,"end":7156.313,"text":"我只是說我們有審查跟核定的這個權限那你如果說我其實我一直一路以來我都非常的敬重你我也非常的尊敬你即便最近這個有幾個國際媒體把你評為B家我都認為你在我心目中仍舊是5A的總裁因為你在做很多事情的果決判斷我覺得是很明朗清楚的當然央行應該有自己的獨立性全世界的"},{"start":7156.693,"end":7183.811,"text":"自己國家的中央銀行其實都有它的獨立性透明度跟可救責性這個是央行應該要有的特性它都不應該有太多的外力的介入我不知道你有沒有讀到包括風傳媒跟聯合報在近期都有一篇報導提到就是說如果彭淮南在周永泰敢把手伸進央行或者是聯合報的標題社論也提到說干預央行兩蔣不敢周永泰敢"},{"start":7184.651,"end":7201.167,"text":"你自己有沒有看過這兩篇報告?你有讀到這兩篇報告嗎?有看到吧?跟你有關的你應該有看到吧?你有看到齁?所以看到這兩篇報告齁,是我杞人憂天呢?還是你央行其實心裡也有很多的苦?"},{"start":7204.372,"end":7220.286,"text":"完全沒有苦我剛剛還是有跟委員報告就是說中央銀行的一個貨幣信用跟外匯政策這個是由中央銀行的理事我們的委員會來審核總裁沒關係我問你一句話媒體風傳媒評論說彭淮南在"},{"start":7227.014,"end":7235.753,"text":"中台感嗎?言下之意就是因為是你所以中台感打電話給你你看到這篇報道你心裡有什麼感受?"},{"start":7238.217,"end":7256.905,"text":"我想有些時候媒體他在對一個事件的一個評論有些時候他也沒有對整個的情況是不是就是說很真正的去知道他只是說也是應該也就是說從旁邊來看做這樣的一個評論"},{"start":7260.487,"end":7281.93,"text":"那至於就是說他是不是很準確我過去從來沒有看到媒體用下這麼大的標去批判一個央行的總裁我們過去這麼多幾位總裁一路走下來我從來也很少看到總統會去直接去提說我要找總裁來談一談聊一聊這個政策過檔直接"},{"start":7282.791,"end":7311.354,"text":"打臉：他沒有說我們的政策報告：我們從媒體上看到的是這件事情你我都同意央行在做很多決策的時候應該要有他的獨立性要有你們的專業性如果你認為央行應該有自己的獨立性的話未來如果有其他的政治干預我私底下請問你總裁會不會願意用自己的去留去捍衛中央銀行這塊金字招牌因為央行應該要有自己的獨立性嘛"},{"start":7312.565,"end":7320.929,"text":"我想我跟委員報告就是說從以前到現在我總覺得...你以前有聽過彭淮南接到過哪些人的電話總統或誰的電話說這個政策直接在媒體上說這個政策過當我要找他來喝咖啡我要找他來了解這個政策不行"},{"start":7335.558,"end":7347.711,"text":"我還是要跟委員報告就是說媒體他是在旁邊看他的一個所以呢也就是說對實際的情況也不是說百分之百是完全正確的啦"},{"start":7348.972,"end":7375.293,"text":"所以我再問我再請我總裁你一直剛沒有回到最後一個我不想佔用別人的時間就是說央行的獨立性是很重要因為他非常你們非常的專業應該不要受到太多政治外力的干擾去做很多的決策我講這句話你同意嘛對不對如果有太多的政治干預去干預到央行的決策總裁你會不會用自己的去留去捍衛中央銀行這塊獨立性的招牌"},{"start":7380.039,"end":7396.806,"text":"所以如果受到政治力太多的介入,你會不會用你的去留來捍衛央行獨立性的招牌?"},{"start":7399.947,"end":7402.828,"text":"謝謝燕秀,接著請李坤城委員發言"},{"start":7435.646,"end":7438.649,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":7448.947,"end":7469.821,"text":"總裁辛苦了常常看到你就是會到各個委員的辦公室去做溝通、去做協調這相當的好啦不過你被評為B家總裁其實我是為你打抱不平啦我認為你還是屬於A級的總裁我舉兩點啦第一個就是說在今年3月的時候"},{"start":7476.454,"end":7503.49,"text":"這個在外界都無預警的情況之下央行升息半碼但是那時候升息半碼呢是要這個意志通膨啦那所以說那時候總裁的說法是說Supply但是呢決定是合理這主要是為了意志國內通膨的預期的心理這是在3月份那在6月份的時候呢這個央行是升準不升息然後呢這個總裁那時候說法就是說呢"},{"start":7504.623,"end":7530.636,"text":"這次最主要是給市場的訊息這次的重點在於房地產不在於通膨那光是這兩點這個3月跟6月份這個央行的決定一個是抑制通膨那另外一個就是給市場訊息就開始要打炒房了我認為這央行都有動足機先那請教一下這個現在是10月份了"},{"start":7531.107,"end":7535.624,"text":"那回過頭再來看三月份跟六月份你的決定你認為有沒有達到效果了?"},{"start":7538.866,"end":7561.104,"text":"如果說就通膨來講的話呢我們的通膨確實是慢慢在下來這個是我們的預測跟國際的預測大概都是這樣我們通膨慢慢在下來了這是第一個那第二個就是說我們在6月份的時候選擇性信用管制出去然後為什麼在第9月份的時候呢再出去"},{"start":7562.125,"end":7582.323,"text":"那6月份的時候呢我們那個時候的那個對於這個房地產呢我們那個時候所掌握的資訊不夠充分不夠充分所以呢也就是說那個力道呢就比較輕一點我們是在在6月因為在因為我們的這個報告裡面我們有講到就是說"},{"start":7584.605,"end":7603.917,"text":"六月的六就是第二季的那個房地產的那個貸放的情況我們我們裡面有有有說明吼那個是六月份的資料那六月份的資料要到什麼時候我們才掌握到我們要到八月份九月份的時候才能拿得到所以呢覺得就是說"},{"start":7605.459,"end":7629.039,"text":"這個第一副就是說有房子然後呢又要申請第一副的還有就是說第二副的他的人數增加的非常快金額也增加的非常快所以呢也就是說我們第6就是說6月份那一波呢是比較輕那為什麼就連續的到9月份的時候我們再出手是因為我們那個時候呢我們的資訊呢還沒有掌握到"},{"start":7629.659,"end":7631.761,"text":"我看這個第七波的這個選擇性信用管制媒體的標題大部分就是說比如說央行5G"},{"start":7650.056,"end":7667.252,"text":"謀要重拳打草房然後呢楊金龍說要給這個投資客一個lesson要給一個教訓這個也是藉這個機會告訴社會大眾房市呢必須cool down這個當然就是當lesson大家就解釋成說就是要讓投資客學習"},{"start":7669.174,"end":7690.152,"text":"當然講重一點就是教訓那也就是像剛剛這個總裁所提到說你是不是有看到了什麼樣的訊息就是說現在台灣的情況是不是有接近到這個2000在這個1990年代的日本資產泡沫還有2007年到2008年美國的次代風暴的這種情況"},{"start":7691.656,"end":7692.957,"text":"就像報告上說的我們這個全體銀行不動產的貸款的總"},{"start":7721.316,"end":7743.312,"text":"這個比例高達37.5%了嘛所以比起2009年10月的歷史高點37.9%已經相當的接近了然後銀行信用資源向不動產部門傾斜的情況還更嚴重所以你是看到這個情況所以在第七波的這個選擇性信用管制的時候用重拳來打炒房"},{"start":7744.181,"end":7770.236,"text":"委員你剛剛講到這個的時候我想我也趁這個機會來解釋一下當時我用這個Lesson就是說我沒辦法剛剛委員就解釋替我解釋得非常好你說要給他們上一課事實上我就是當時這個Lesson我沒有就是說我要教訓他但是有這個效果有教訓的效果"},{"start":7771.497,"end":7771.937,"text":"但是有達到這個效果了啦?"},{"start":7801.168,"end":7805.699,"text":"我也是希望是這樣子但是我們也不是說真的是要教訓他啦"},{"start":7806.857,"end":7832.351,"text":"再請教一下總裁我看有很多委員有很關心就是說我們在九月份的時候你有第七波會不會在12月的時候會不會有這個第八波的這個選擇性信用管制那當然我認為會有一些指標那我想請教一下這個總裁的指標來決定說你看到的什麼樣的情況會有什麼樣的改善的情況或是什麼情況會更嚴重你覺得說要不要再進行下一波的這個信用管制"},{"start":7834.967,"end":7856.714,"text":"我覺得委員三個指標這三個指標我們可以參考房價是否有修正不動產房款的集中度不動產的貸款金額這些都是我們可以來觀察的一個指標那還有沒有什麼其他指標大體上是大概是這樣子大體上是這樣子所以說就是看說這三個指標"},{"start":7859.415,"end":7881.457,"text":"有沒有下降來決定說是不是要進行第八波的這個信用管制最主要的就中央銀行來看的話我們第一個就是說不動產的換款的集中度是有沒有下降這是我們比較那有沒有一個數字比如說現在37.5大概下降到什麼樣的一個程度你會覺得說比較安心這個是合理不合理我們再來大概到哪一個"},{"start":7882.037,"end":7883.379,"text":"我們因為現在目前齁誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒"},{"start":7899.155,"end":7900.296,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們這三個指標不過賴總統是相當肯定我認為在國慶的談話他有特別提到說"},{"start":7921.227,"end":7921.968,"text":"總裁有沒有覺得心暖暖的?"},{"start":7936.426,"end":7960.777,"text":"我也非常感謝就是說院裡面跟總務府給我們的支持這是我們的那現在就是說上次你來找我的時候我也提到就是說有一些這個重群下去之後當然有一些無辜受害者後來你們也是做了一些調整但是還是有一些情況發生就是說現在是新清安他們去貸款"},{"start":7961.698,"end":7966.736,"text":"貸款的這個陳述比預期的或是說比之前在你們這個信用管制之前在談的"},{"start":7968.067,"end":7993.22,"text":"本來談好了但是後來的代給他們的成數降低了或是說支配款要準備的成數也提高了這個有沒有就像說你們有這一個電話打過來這樣子抱怨反應的有沒有我想應該也會有啦不過我跟委員報告了所以我們這一次的協組措施把那些已經訂約的包括就是中古屋或是那個預售屋的"},{"start":7996.061,"end":8021.184,"text":"他一戶二戶的那個我們都有在排除條款裡面但是三戶以上的話我們就無能為力有很多是那個剛買房子的所以我們協組措施裡面就有這樣的一個協組措施那還有就是說你如果說預售五年是足夠協組的措施出來之後這方面的抱怨有比較減少嗎就比較少了啦就比較少了"},{"start":8023.019,"end":8039.905,"text":"再請教一下總裁美國的聯準會降息但是台灣最近升息然後總裁對他表示說貨幣政策會持續偏向緊縮短期內不會有降息的動作"},{"start":8043.103,"end":8058.435,"text":"好,我想呢,第一個就是說貨幣政策的一個調整是整個的我們的理事會共同來決定的,不過我個人的看法就是說到目前為止雖然我們預測說我們明年會"},{"start":8062.178,"end":8090.99,"text":"通膨會降到2%以下但是我們還是要持續的去觀察它因為預測有些時候不是非常準確的都要每一個季每一個季去做調整所以到目前為止我覺得我們的貨幣政策在這個水準是合理的最後我再問一下總裁就是說根據114年你們的預算書你們的存款跟放款的平均利率"},{"start":8092.01,"end":8106.879,"text":"對這個相較113年講吼是比較低一點點那這個是不是講說吼這個我們的貨幣政策在明年會比較寬鬆勒沒有沒有因為沒有他那個我們那個放款呢是外幣的"},{"start":8107.739,"end":8122.306,"text":"外幣的?外幣是反映美國的降息所以外幣的放款的利率是才會下來那我們本幣1.2到1.18差沒有多少只是說一個是113年年初的預算一個是"},{"start":8126.348,"end":8136.073,"text":"一個是12年那時候所做的預算那一個是113年年初的所做的預算所以差沒有差多少1.12跟1.18沒有差多少換款的那個部分純粹是外幣外幣因為它確實是下來"},{"start":8143.737,"end":8159.106,"text":"我是希望說打草房不是只有央行在做當然央行是動作出來之後會聯動的會影響財政或是金管會他們相關的政策我是希望說這個三個部會能夠一起來做謝謝委員鼓勵謝謝謝謝總裁謝謝主席謝謝昆城委員接著請顏寬恒委員諮詢"},{"start":8170.555,"end":8183.345,"text":"好再報告一下就是王世堅委員質詢完畢我要讓我們休息五分鐘主席各位立席官員大家好主席有請央行楊總裁請總裁"},{"start":8190.191,"end":8205.413,"text":"我很早總裁早是總裁現在民眾最關心的就是央行在禮監事會決議宣布的第七波房市信用管制的部分是是用來抑制炒房引發了金融風暴根據銀行法第72條"},{"start":8206.634,"end":8228.61,"text":"之二的規定商業銀行在辦理住宅建築．企業建築的總放款總額不得超過百分之三十那這個部分主要是在防止金融機構因為過度放貸引發系統性的風險那楊總裁你也在八月中還有九月初的時候邀請各銀行的高管就不動產集中度過高做這個檢討"},{"start":8231.232,"end":8239.568,"text":"那要求銀行提出不動產總量的方案貸款總量方案這一波被外界解釋為現代令"},{"start":8241.097,"end":8268.954,"text":"但是賴總統隨即又跳出來說沒有限貸令央行只是提醒而非要求我想要請教總裁賴總統這個說法是不是在打央行的臉你們前面才說就不動產貸款總量來進行檢討方案後腳總統就直接跳出來說這個是因應這樣的因應措施過蕩你們這樣的因應措施過蕩你有沒有覺得沒有他沒有說我們的因應過蕩"},{"start":8269.975,"end":8284.96,"text":"而是說現代令這個我們也有在向外面解釋的幾次所謂的現代令是因為72條之二各個銀行因為它到達一個警戒值"},{"start":8285.66,"end":8290.704,"text":"我必須要做一些的資源的分配所以呢他們做了一個自主性的一個限制所以呢他的現在是銀行所做的而不是政府做的所以政府他說"},{"start":8310.659,"end":8333.905,"text":"那總統跟院長也就是說是沒有啊,政府沒有所謂的現代化。總裁,我在這邊很直白地說,會讓你們這麼頭痛,要讓你們扮黑臉的根本主要原因就是新清安嘛,對不對?新清安到現在超過40%貸款,那放款都是新清安,那超過6000多億嘛,對不對?"},{"start":8335.312,"end":8357.782,"text":"不過我們也要就是說...沒關係,我是要跟你講講,現在有五年的寬限期那所以昨天財政部長也有說大概有超過20幾趴的部分是所謂的五年寬限期其他部分不在這五年之內,有三年的有什麼的有什麼的我講的就是說,有導致有很多沒有辦法負擔的人也跟著一起貸"},{"start":8358.925,"end":8358.945,"text":"報告．"},{"start":8384.938,"end":8411.905,"text":"做一個這個這個協調這個溝通那現在總統跳出來說沒有現代沒有現代令這個就是自己就打自己的臉嗎因為因為報告委員就是說我記得我記得很清楚院長跟總統呢他在講就是說沒有現代令他說官方沒有現代令的這個事情因為剛剛我解釋的就是說現代令是"},{"start":8412.845,"end":8437.825,"text":"各個銀行因為銀行法72條之二的一個限制他們自己來所做的一個措施那這個跟政府行政院跟總統跟中央銀行沒有關係的是沒有關係的所以我當然希望每一個年輕人都能夠擁有自己的房子但是不是靠著說去"},{"start":8438.726,"end":8454.478,"text":"提高乘數、貸款乘數或者說拉高上限然後用這種方法去鼓勵年輕人買房那寬限期過了過了之後造成後面的我們無法想像會什麼情況這因為我們擔憂的嘛所以拜託請這位總裁有機會跟總理講不要再這樣子的"},{"start":8459.682,"end":8482.17,"text":"不要亂說,不然他會說你沒錢你做的這個工作然後又要來扮黑臉來收拾產局當然也要跟財政部講因為這個政策帶給你們很大的困擾那我們祭出第七波的信用管制是因為資金過度流入不動產的一個風險是巨大的所以我們從很多的國家我們可以看到這個房市泡沫化的產礦"},{"start":8483.581,"end":8505.266,"text":"好的央行能夠頂住壓力本席很肯定我們楊總裁能夠預視到未來可能發生的風險及時提出因應措施但是也因為提出的狀況過於急躁導致於說這項政策有不少無辜的民眾被捲入其中這你不否認"},{"start":8508.992,"end":8535.806,"text":"受到相關的限制我有看到央行在10月9號發布的第七波信用管制的一個配套那裡面有三大內容就是說包括這個繼承取得房屋及房貸還有實質換入需求已經與這個金融機構竊解約定的還有自然能以簽訂購屋合約然後即將申辦貸款的這個都排除適用都排除適用所以"},{"start":8536.266,"end":8536.286,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":8558.456,"end":8575.807,"text":"在制定政策的時候事先在問題建構的階段就應該把這些利害相關都考慮其中不然你到後面事後發現來做事後的補救老實講這個是事倍功半啦會得到這個民眾反而會失去信心"},{"start":8577.228,"end":8605.836,"text":"打掃房的確是維持經濟穩定的一個重要措施那尤其是現今我們的房市過熱那房價高漲泡沫化的這個風險這個漸漸升高的情況之下所以央行跟政府有責任透過一個審慎的政策干預來避免過度的投機行為導致的危機所以這不是短期的行為是一個需要全盤考量"},{"start":8606.816,"end":8628.214,"text":"持續施立的一個長期的戰略那政策的穩定性最重要我要在這邊再提醒總裁朝夕另改會使市場混亂我們一直在提醒一直在提醒那如果認為政策確實會動搖民心我們就要提出建言要提出要求"},{"start":8629.595,"end":8651.031,"text":"所以我想在未來在設計打房措施的時候我們的可預見性跟透明性這個部分政策的制定打草房部應該只是針對某一個群組或者是暫時性的市場波動是一個持續監管跟調節市場的一種手段一種方法"},{"start":8651.932,"end":8664.462,"text":"那我想能夠回應市場的變化跟民眾的需求才能夠真正體現整體經濟的一個平衡的發展因為時間有限那我想就再請教總裁一個問題就是這個CBDC數位貨幣的議題"},{"start":8670.166,"end":8691.836,"text":"上個會期我就有跟你探討過CBDC的進度那CBDC涉及到許多厲害關係人那同時也是需要跨部會的一個技術合作那這為了跟上全球化世界的步伐所以我知道這項技術不能貿然倉促的上路一定要考慮完整完善"},{"start":8692.536,"end":8718.238,"text":"那在上個會期以及你們這一次的業務報告書裡面本期都有看到你們除行平台會先與速速發布進行合作那未來政府機關會透過速發布的平台發放這個數位券那請問總裁數位券的功能是什麼是哪些人是這除行平台的主要用戶那因為平台是除行代"},{"start":8719.789,"end":8743.066,"text":"應該不會是全民都能夠使用所以我想請利用一點點時間總裁可以為我們說明一下是是是我初步我先跟委員報告事實上數位券就是說數位券包括委員我們有兩次的那個消費券有沒有消費券那個時候呢消費券是資本的"},{"start":8743.959,"end":8760.31,"text":"那如果說我們把這個資本的消費券呢把它變成數位化那來協助政府呢來發放那這樣的話會省時間而且呢我們如果按照我們的這個平台來講的話呢我們那個平台它的容量呢會足夠的來應付它"},{"start":8761.271,"end":8779.292,"text":"議員．"},{"start":8779.605,"end":8807.599,"text":"總裁在發行數位貨幣上包含數位券還有其他的部分對希望央行能夠舉辦更多的這樣子的一個公聽會我們公聽會、說明會還有那個論壇我們都會然後納入更多元的意見是是是利害關心人之間對對對意見的交換我們會我們會讓CPTC可以上路可以順利是好是謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵好謝謝坤衡委員那接著請王世堅委員"},{"start":8825.147,"end":8851.093,"text":"謝謝主席,我請我們總裁。好,有請總裁。王委員早。總裁最近辛苦了。我非常謝謝,真的我非常謝謝那個委員。我們中央銀行要做的事情,你要對抗的,剛好是我們國內這最重要的兩大"},{"start":8853.813,"end":8865.758,"text":"廣告供應者之一就是這些建商房地產業者那當然在我們祭出這第七波"},{"start":8867.676,"end":8893.091,"text":"這個信用管制之後那他們相對的就做了很多反彈是利用他們在媒體的優勢是因為他們長期提供那麼大量的廣告從電視廣播網路這個平面媒體雜誌甚至報紙等等他們會製造一些錯誤的訊息假的新聞來騷擾了那當然"},{"start":8896.629,"end":8903.112,"text":"這個都必須靠你們專業的一些堅持還有辦法繼續享受這個政策"},{"start":8907.628,"end":8928.254,"text":"最近這個審計部抽查那麼他針對我們從民國110年9月開始我們就有針對說購地貸款建商購地貸款那麼他必須在一定期間內我們是給他們18個月一定期間內要來動工"},{"start":8930.174,"end":8956.948,"text":"那麼他抽查的結果這兩家銀行我倒是很訝異他一家抽查說臺灣銀行跟土地銀行這兩家銀行臺灣銀行是還好喔他超過18個月沒有動工的這一個部分只佔他這個不動產借貸這一個部分的0.45%但是土地銀行竟然佔了5.11%"},{"start":8959.989,"end":8976.149,"text":"哇這一點齁這個而且土地銀行購地貸款18個月沒有動工的餘額增加了16%增加了16%所以我覺得在這一個部分"},{"start":8977.697,"end":9001.018,"text":"既然我們有這個規定而且這一個規定是正確的就是說如果銀行把過多的融資金額給予建商讓他們去買地、養地、圈地那當然在地小人稠的我們台灣當然房地產"},{"start":9002.619,"end":9021.928,"text":"會暫假是那建商當然有他們一定的獲利需求但是也不能到這種不擇手段的地步是所以我認為這一個部分土地囊在這一個部分我覺得也應該嚴格遵守所以那個"},{"start":9024.109,"end":9031.776,"text":"總裁我們銀行法第130條違反中央銀行信用管制可以處新台幣100萬到2000萬元的罰款所以這個部分"},{"start":9036.963,"end":9063.063,"text":"我想是不是你應該去針對台銀,欸針對土地銀行,台銀還好啦,台銀至少是個模範生嘛,土地銀行這個部分是不是應該去盯一盯他?好,我們這個委員的提醒我們馬上來,我回去的時候我們馬上來了解狀況。還有以及啊,我們要做一些普查啦,比方說"},{"start":9064.878,"end":9089.573,"text":"比方說現在這一兩年內我們銀行體系都有針對這些建商高負債率的我比方說有去年前年都有提出十大高負債比例的建商那個第一名第二名負債率都高達八成以上前十名最少68%我記得第十名68%"},{"start":9092.375,"end":9119.58,"text":"那也就是說我們剛剛講的這一些利用財務槓桿高金額來借貸銀行現在這麼低的利率那麼他用來買地養地圈地所以這我認為是不是央行應該出手要求這一些銀行尤其借貸給這十大高負債建商"},{"start":9120.12,"end":9135.613,"text":"而這十大高負債建商的公司如果你去詳閱他的財報內容他們都構置了很多閒置的土地他根本就是買地養地圈地是非常清楚的所以"},{"start":9136.354,"end":9154.333,"text":"我們沒辦法直接對建商怎麼樣可是中央銀行可以對這些銀行下手跟這些銀行講說站在社會公平正義居住正義的立場他們不應該去助紂為虐好不好這個部分你要跟他查查"},{"start":9155.333,"end":9165.1,"text":"我非常佩服這個委員你特別是你引用了這個央行法第38條這個央行法第38條在我們的這個道德說服那段時間我們的經檢處每一場他都參與而且我們也都跟我們的經檢處就像委員所說的我們要"},{"start":9179.673,"end":9207.45,"text":"要不定期的去了解他們是不是有遵守銀行法的規定還有遵守我們對他的道德說服這一點我跟委員報告真的我們中央銀行有在做檢討我們不但例行性的要做尤其現在我們既然祭出了這第七波這個現代令那土法不足以自行我們一定"},{"start":9209.151,"end":9225.666,"text":"喔一定要跟著這個去查查是然後跟著這個棒子就要來了欸是是要不然欸他當作個螞蟻東風根本來個不帥是是是他尤其查查的我們就要連著因為這"},{"start":9227.888,"end":9242.086,"text":"幾年來我們政府一直在推動各企業往ESG這個方向這是正確的環境國家的永續但是ESG在銀行的部分本來"},{"start":9244.617,"end":9262.182,"text":"財政部金管會是交由第一銀行說這個ESG去推動去怎麼樣落實結果第一銀行有製作了ESG的查核表格但是這個表格製作了交給各銀行去針對"},{"start":9264.476,"end":9289.21,"text":"來貸款的企業是不是ESG有達到尤其對建商啦建商ESG的責任特別重大不只他蓋的產品應該注重ESG過程裡面公安的問題等等以外因為建商貸款金額那麼大嘛他的責任當然更重結果有了這個表格"},{"start":9290.728,"end":9302.578,"text":"但是沒有實際去落實表格填一填但是也沒有對違反這表格內容尤其對於綠色的"},{"start":9304.146,"end":9325,"text":"這個要求尤其對於公安的要求那有的公安連年失誤每年都在摔傷甚至不幸導致工人死亡的案例那麼多的公司越多違反ESG規定的公司貸款越高"},{"start":9326.161,"end":9342.553,"text":"那連一個基本的處罰說把他要不然每個申請案降低他額度要不然把他提高他的貸款利率都沒有都沒有所以這個部分總裁我們只能委請中央銀行就是說這個部分因為你們是"},{"start":9343.514,"end":9363.003,"text":"銀行中的銀行是有你們下去管制這些銀行說你們有沒有去落實ESG是還有這個表格建制之後的要求是好不好好好好謝謝謝謝我另外要提幾點就是說我簡單提一下就是說"},{"start":9365.455,"end":9390.426,"text":"到底我們這一波信用管制是不是如坊間講的啦坊間講的很多我認為是假消息我認為比方說齁這個最近這一兩個月說央行打得太用力了啦換屋主哀嚎說小建商恐怕會倒閉這些很多是錯誤信息甚至背後"},{"start":9391.688,"end":9397.226,"text":"是建商刻意在推動的假消息他藉由自入性的"},{"start":9398.303,"end":9426.029,"text":"新聞是藉由這樣子的方式在製作這樣子的假訊息那包括說這個購屋這個導致說現在消費者借不到房屋青年朋友要來自產的借不到房屋貸款這些都鬼扯啦因為這個是他們講的借不到的是大部分都是屯屋族啦是老房客是真的"},{"start":9426.749,"end":9427.509,"text":"我了解到的"},{"start":9456.283,"end":9475.709,"text":"比較客觀的民調不動產仲介工會他的網路民調他說這一次打房有38.5%的民眾認為這個房價可能會下跌那時候一定會下跌的13.5%也就是說合計有超過50%超過一半52%的民眾認為這個會達到房價下跌所以"},{"start":9488.185,"end":9512.487,"text":"總裁這個方向是對的難得能夠來抑制這個狂飆的房價那當然啦這一波這個裡面還有一個結論是說有兩成的民眾說認為央行應該繼續在第八波信用管制那這個部分當然就是再研究啦再研究"},{"start":9512.907,"end":9531.034,"text":"那我覺得說有一些我們沒有讓消費者理解到的訊息那這個要加強宣達最後一點就是說竟然竟然有的銀行利用這一次青年朋友頭一次來購屋那他們就寄出說這個你要購買"},{"start":9532.755,"end":9552.148,"text":"金龍相關的這個比方說搭配保險、理財商品要購買這些財能貸款我覺得這個部分我們特別要跟銀行要求他們不要趁這一次這種上下棋手來對青年朋友對新購屋族造成他們的困擾"},{"start":9553.409,"end":9572.281,"text":"全不能也不應該有說要搭配購買金融消費商品購買保險才能夠貸款這一點要銀行一定要去落實好不好現在的銀行大部分都是金控公司嘛金控就什麼都有啊保險啦證券啦"},{"start":9575.423,"end":9580.587,"text":"臺什麼都有混在一起了是那是不對的好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員支持謝謝我們暫時休息五分鐘"},{"start":9604.534,"end":9627.539,"text":"二、邀請中央銀行公司董事長列席業務報告．並備質詢。�"},{"start":9630.06,"end":9644.718,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9648.268,"end":9675.93,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":9684.309,"end":9687.176,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9731.837,"end":9731.939,"text":"主席。"},{"start":9755.896,"end":9779.138,"text":"響鐘響鐘響鐘"},{"start":9780.742,"end":9788.797,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9832.033,"end":9842.601,"text":"二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就:「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施 進行專題報告．並備質詢。」"},{"start":9871.544,"end":9896.22,"text":"響鐘響鐘響鐘"},{"start":9913.882,"end":9936.493,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":9940.162,"end":9956.869,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9977.978,"end":9996.698,"text":"響鐘響鐘響鐘"},{"start":10005.762,"end":10009.283,"text":"好,我們繼續開會接著請王珊珊委員質詢我們請王珊珊委員好,請楊總裁是,請總裁"},{"start":10043.647,"end":10063.789,"text":"黃委員早是總裁早我想剛剛我被記者拉著要問你一個問題雖然我不太喜歡問這種比較不屬於政策的問題希望能夠了解一下包括金融管制這件事情請問賴總統有沒有跟你溝通過或者是用什麼方式跟你溝通的"},{"start":10065.093,"end":10087.023,"text":"我想呢就是說總統講到就是說他也有提到他不是說我們過當沒有所以有幾個委員就講就是說他我記得好像總統是說金融機構所以沒有直接跟你溝通啊沒有他沒有講說我們那個什麼那個說過當沒有沒有這回事"},{"start":10087.443,"end":10096.395,"text":"沒有這回事所以你就是說你沒有寫LINE也沒有打電話就對了沒有沒有沒有以上是記者要問的那接下來是我要問的"},{"start":10098.92,"end":10125.172,"text":"總裁在我們全環球金融雜誌公布的2024全球央行的總裁評比以前我們都是得A所以這次被降為B家我在我寫了一篇臉書說這是你的非戰之罪我想央行幫執政黨的各部門背了一個很大的黑鍋產生的內憂外患一個是現在號稱國內的金龍海嘯金龍海嘯就是你打房打得太兇了"},{"start":10125.672,"end":10133.492,"text":"另外就是外患就是被國際金融相關的雜誌評比為必加總裁你要不要說一下你的感想"},{"start":10135.216,"end":10162.779,"text":"如果說我們就是說是從A降到B加就是說是被黑鉤我覺得這個也是是委員對我們的美言不過從我們中央銀行的立場還有我個人的一個立場來看的話我總覺得中央銀行第一個要虛心檢討第二個我們要"},{"start":10163.459,"end":10180.698,"text":"持續的努力表示說中央銀行還有精進進步的空間對我想我在上個會期就講過其實我覺得重點在於從2020年我們開始第一波信用管制其實到現在已經七波了"},{"start":10181.218,"end":10205.639,"text":"然後從2022年的相關的房市的狀況房價的狀況其實央行一直希望說總裁也在記者會裡面表示過希望房市能夠軟著路軟著路有兩個條件價格要慢慢往下調炒作要退場總裁七波了價格有沒有慢慢往下調炒作有沒有退場"},{"start":10207.265,"end":10229.277,"text":"所以這個也就是說我們為什麼我們在第七波為什麼還要第七波就是因為沒有發生嘛你的目標預期沒有做到嘛所以第七波其實是在收前面的爛攤子我必須要很沉痛的說出來因為我們在今年去應該說大選年我們本來做了一個居住正義很重要的平均地權條例"},{"start":10230.934,"end":10255.503,"text":"這個政策讓房價暫時抑制了一部分其實只有抑制了兩個月兩個月之後的8月推出了行情案貸款我的天哪房價就再也沒有下來過從相關的這個房屋指數房價指數來說2022年的下半年到今年的9月整整27個月只有兩個月的房租年增率低於2%也就是"},{"start":10256.772,"end":10263.827,"text":"你剛剛講的價格慢慢往下調沒有發生而且價格往上漲的速度還在不斷提高"},{"start":10264.844,"end":10286.759,"text":"更快了更快的漲所以總裁這兩個是你要推出第七波信用管制的主要原因對嗎應該是了就是說他的預期我們報告也有講到就是說預期心理非常強所以這個金龍海嘯其實是執政黨以前錯誤矛盾的政策互相推擠的浪花只是灌在楊金龍的頭上"},{"start":10287.56,"end":10294.765,"text":"但是他有一個很大的問題是他讓房價降不下來建商剛剛講這些小建商每天放這些消息其實當時如果平均地點條例下來之後房價會往下降"},{"start":10318.142,"end":10342.924,"text":"跟您的預期一樣但是新青安讓它止降讓它撐在那裡而且因為我們又有6000多億的錢又投入了房地產市場這才是整個房價你必須要用第七波來做的原因不過後來後來院裡面也有救新青安的做得很好總裁我的時間有限我只要說有希望你原來預設的目標跟政策方向"},{"start":10343.744,"end":10367.144,"text":"在你的第七波做不到的話第八波繼續做你的金龍海嘯力度可以再大一點否則這個目標永遠達不成我們持續檢討密切關注持續檢討第二個部分就是我們現在很多房貸因為你的相關管制方式很多人帶不到了有沒有發現信貸增加然後流到不動產的狀況"},{"start":10370.794,"end":10382.858,"text":"我在想應該也會有不過我跟委員報告這個也就是說金管會他也在這一方面他會做精檢我們的精檢處也會做專案精檢就這個部分"},{"start":10387.8,"end":10404.932,"text":"我想我要跟委員報告我們如果要達到你的第一個目標就要禁止信貸進入不動產市場否則你這個信用管制又沒有用我們來注意這個專案金檢金管會要做央行我覺得你的政策要落實這是非常重要否則"},{"start":10405.692,"end":10416.196,"text":"一波兩波七波了也沒有用一定有出了什麼原因接下來是9月我們電價調漲10月16號上路那雖然都漲的是產業的電價漲幅到14%那產業平均調漲了12%"},{"start":10423.738,"end":10438.239,"text":"我們之前9月份的禮監事會當時有把這個放進來嗎那時候沒有那時候沒有那現在你現在預計接下去的我們的通膨會受到這個影響有多少沒有很大因為第一個"},{"start":10439.32,"end":10465.005,"text":"今年如果說以整年來講的話呢我們的估測呢是大概他會有0.125左右的0.125但是那是整年但是呢到就今年來看的話呢今年來看呢他只剩下幾個月所以今年如果再有廠商說因為電價調漲所以他要調漲他的相關商品你覺得合理嗎基本上應該廠商比較不會"},{"start":10465.865,"end":10471.788,"text":"總裁我想問一下我們對於所謂你3月份的時候是說你那時候升息是因為要抑制國內通膨的預期心理請問我們對於通膨預期心理有做過相關的調查嗎"},{"start":10492.82,"end":10515.938,"text":"我們現在呢就開始在就是說對做過幾次了對我們不是我們事實上呢我們本身吼也有有一些很多模型在預測就是說欸我們下一個月會多少啊這個整年會多少我們有很多的模型那針對消費者的這個部分呢我們現在是委託中央研究院有相關的數字嗎是是是我們"},{"start":10519.601,"end":10535.906,"text":"因為疫情心理就會是你接下去很多貨幣政策的我同意一定要有調查才會有相關的資訊嘛但重點在於說我們現在長期以來穩定物價都是用補貼包括電價"},{"start":10537.326,"end":10556.963,"text":"可能還有很多的包括潔運現在電價也漲很多但是潔運票價也不能漲我們長期公用政策用補貼的方式其實是對於所謂的真正的價格我們可能抑制的價格可是我們產生了更多的內部的成本你同意嗎"},{"start":10558.584,"end":10573.072,"text":"這個我跟委員報告齁,如果說我個人的看法啦齁,就譬如像說北捷但是我即使說北捷的這個店齁,就是說他比較長時間就是說把他凍結齁,就是說比較沒有帳齁"},{"start":10574.173,"end":10580.716,"text":"我覺得還好,為什麼?因為北捷本身呢,他都賺錢。那這一次呢,台電的這個部分呢,是因為我個人的看法。"},{"start":10591.962,"end":10602.249,"text":"我意思只是說你同意長期用價格控制政府補貼的方式來決定市場的機制嗎我們的問題是我們要適度的慢慢短期只能短期來實施這樣的一個這個把這一段期間如果說解決了以後我們就要把它放寬就要歐美曾經發生過一模一樣的狀況所以他們慢慢的回歸市場機制"},{"start":10622.002,"end":10642.818,"text":"同樣的台灣長期用價格去抑制用所謂的補貼去抑制價格但是我們其實不是一個正常的市場最後一個簡單的小問題很有趣總裁我們常常央行會發行紀念幣對不對紀念幣最近我接到很多的銀樓朋友來問因為他們很多現在金幣漲價"},{"start":10644.839,"end":10673.957,"text":"一顆金電幣那時候買是七萬兩千塊現在大概可以賣到八萬五所以淨賺一萬三很多人拿去銀樓然後他們就說我可不可以把它融化然後銀樓很害怕因為這個好像中央銀行發行的就叫做法幣就是國幣這個有沒有算到所謂的防害國幣懲治條例啊我是不是黃委員我要請我們的發言人來好請說就給銀樓業者一個答案"},{"start":10675.177,"end":10698.081,"text":"是,跟委員報告有關這個問題確實是我們發行：我們買了的人都很想賣掉啦我們發行的就是國幣啦所以怎麼辦呢?你要不要修法把這個從國幣裡面剔除否則這些相關的事情可能會沒被檢舉就算了被檢舉的時候一年以上七年以下是不得了的事耶"},{"start":10699.646,"end":10712.718,"text":"這個確實是觸犯了所謂的我們的防害國幣懲治條例所以要不要做調整要不要告知要不要修正可是這個定罪應該是有司法機關來定罪但是你要先定它是不是國幣嗎"},{"start":10714.218,"end":10714.238,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":10737.621,"end":10760.828,"text":"國家要保護的法幣我覺得可以讓他從這個法條把它除外是你們去研究一下好這個會期來不及下個會期以前給我一個答覆好謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝好謝謝珊珊委員那接著請林柱英委員林柱英林柱英委員不在那接著請羅敏采委員"},{"start":10767.782,"end":10788.408,"text":"主席各位委員處理的習慣大家好主席可不可以請楊總裁是請楊總裁楊總裁你好現在開始就是電價暴漲那事實上接著會不會萬物起漲"},{"start":10789.656,"end":10814.329,"text":"大家都很擔心了那店家暴漲了以後會不會影響到整個通膨的發展我們再看今年都年底了接著就過年一連串都是節日假期這個會不會間接性讓台灣整個通膨的情況一觸可發然後會造成失控的情況"},{"start":10815.86,"end":10831.705,"text":"委員講到這裡就是說我看這一次就是說經濟部他要漲電價就台電要漲電價我覺得他也很謹慎所以他也考慮到這個委員所擔心的事情"},{"start":10832.265,"end":10837.833,"text":"所以你看看他這一次他就純粹就這些產業比較賺錢的產業比如說電子業他這些一挑帳的時候他要繳的電費就比較高了但是呢"},{"start":10849.429,"end":10876.592,"text":"因為產業的這個他大部分都是出口而且這些的產業呢大部分都是賺錢而且呢他的車即使說他要他要就是說他要他要那個給這個消費者就是說給就是說就是說轉嫁給消費者事實上呢他轉嫁也是轉嫁到那個什麼國外的那個進口商所以呢基本上對台灣的物價呢比較不會有受到影響"},{"start":10877.593,"end":10890.545,"text":"一點影響都沒有?我一想很少啊事實上是對事實上我們同意那個經濟部他台電呢他也有經濟部他也有估計呢他大概呢今年呢他的影響是0.03"},{"start":10892.367,"end":10917.034,"text":"所以0.03基本上我們九月份的那個物價的一個預測預告預測呢基本上我們的大概我們的修改大概很少很少所以呢我還是要跟委員報告基本上我們的物價呢現在是慢慢在下來的不會就像那個那個委員所說的會就是說是那個什麼一發不可縮時絕對不會"},{"start":10918.414,"end":10935.928,"text":"現在通膨的情況老百姓其實心裡是很痛的比如說一個包子好了包子以前一顆大概六七塊現在一顆包子要三十塊滷肉飯總裁你記得吧以前我們吃大概一碗大概是十二塊左右現在滷肉飯現在多少"},{"start":10940.912,"end":10967.442,"text":"我想委員講的也沒有錯啦。觀眾的壓力感覺越來越沉重。不過是這樣子啦。是唉聲連連,不想的向誰來訴說。是啦,我覺得委員的這個...我們在想一件事情,總裁大概央行裡面是最表現是算很好的啦。謝謝,謝謝委員。台電連連虧損。"},{"start":10970.163,"end":10989.629,"text":"又要撥補一千億後面可能再加一千億其他地方沒有錢了啦我們大家講一講也不同意啦除非央行你自己補給他啦央行那麼會賺央行有沒有可能在盈餘裡面直接撥給他去年央行的盈餘是多少我們去年呢"},{"start":10990.751,"end":11008.851,"text":"我們去年是就是說繳國庫呢是兩千億吧是不是那我們是去年兩千億我們是兩千億以前最早是八百億後來一千多億就是說對對對我們是兩千億是兩千億沒有錯那為什麼央行會變得那麼會賺錢"},{"start":11010.566,"end":11030.462,"text":"我們事實上我們是很穩健的去管理我們的外資產所以也就是說我們也不像其他的央行一樣的其他的央行我總覺得他們的一個管理的方法是比較take a risk就是說他們去冒險比較大"},{"start":11036.567,"end":11057.025,"text":"大操作所以呢他們的他們的結果呢是會有有些時候會會會沒有賺錢有些時候會賺很多那我們的中央銀行呢是我們比較不會就take risk因為我們是強調的是流動性跟安全性流動性跟安全安全性那然後呢在這種我們覺得沒有問題的情況之下呢我們來"},{"start":11058.166,"end":11080.833,"text":"按照就是說我們是那個我們是那個管理者和善良管理者的一個角色呢我們要盡量的來讓我們的return我們的收益能夠增加所以我們的收益腳褲的金額大概都是很平穩的我們都很平穩的那今年會不會再增加呢"},{"start":11083.595,"end":11101.354,"text":"我們今年就是2000億啊2000億喔那在我們的外匯存底裡面喔買美國的國債大概買了多少我們至少都有8包括美元的資產呢我們應該是至少都有8成以上8成以上大概是8兆多吧台幣9兆"},{"start":11104.042,"end":11107.488,"text":"我們都是用美金來...美國的所有的國債5,770幾億外存抵納乘以80%"},{"start":11113.971,"end":11122.855,"text":"我請問你美國的國債一再的破表現在已經累計大概34兆美元了我想請問總裁一個問題那他時間到他還得起來嗎?"},{"start":11141.919,"end":11165.614,"text":"他的財務狀況也下預況相較之下當然就是說委員講的也沒有錯不過相較其他的國家來講的話美元還是現在是最比較比較可靠的一個比較可靠的一個投資工具那總裁如果美元破產了央行有沒有B計畫"},{"start":11167.082,"end":11194.57,"text":"有什麼B計劃基本上基本上我們是我們都是有在密切的注意密切的注意就是說我們的外匯存底的一個流動性還有它的安全性最重要的安全性我覺得你蠻準的啊因為上次我在野色這個地方我跟你請教說那很多哈日族啊要不要在日幣最低點"},{"start":11195.39,"end":11222.157,"text":"就是大概一美元兌換158日元的時候你那時候在這裡講說差不多到底了結果果然從你講的那一個時刻開始日幣就開始升值升到140多所以你知道那天有注意聽的老師有講課學生認真聽的他日主看他爸爸爸"},{"start":11223.803,"end":11246.916,"text":"所以我對你的這個判斷其實是有具參考性的所以說美元現在慢慢會美元強勢的地位慢慢改變那你第二個貨幣的選擇你會選擇哪裡會不會選擇歐元還是選擇人民幣或者是日元因為日元最近又貶到150左右了"},{"start":11248.998,"end":11275.46,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說基本上我們的幣比的調整事實上就誠如委員在講的就是說它的第一個我們會考慮到就是說它的匯率的變化第二個呢我們會考慮到它的利率的變化所以呢在這種那當然啦是安全性啦還有安全性啦所以呢我們在這樣的呢我們隨時在動態的調整日本會不會再升息?"},{"start":11277.365,"end":11302.813,"text":"我想我跟委員報告就是說我個人的判斷遲早遲早會剩一點遲早因為但是他的時間是怎麼樣這個我因為這是他所以我們看得到最近的日元又走軟所以有150兌換一美元這個甜蜜點又出現了央行會不會考慮增加持有日元的這個比重"},{"start":11303.942,"end":11320.281,"text":"基本上我們的調整是有做這樣的就是說其他的幣幣還有那個從美元或從人民幣這樣的做怎麼樣一個調整日幣也是我們其中考量之一日幣已經增加以前是3%多"},{"start":11321.562,"end":11346.491,"text":"最近已經增加到快5%了吧因為日幣唯一的缺點就是日幣的唯一缺點當然如果說純粹從匯率的觀點來看的話第一個它波動也蠻大的就誠如剛剛你說它158然後波波波到140然後又波波波到150所以這個也是波動很大的一個必備這是第一點第二點它也是它的利率太低"},{"start":11347.571,"end":11348.091,"text":"總裁你對美元的走勢未來怎麼看?"},{"start":11373.905,"end":11392.84,"text":"美元就說現在如果說以目前我們看就是說你看看10年期的公債的利率以前大家都認為就是說美國在調降利率的過程當中這10年期的公債的利率會下跌"},{"start":11393.38,"end":11420.769,"text":"但是呢最近的表現好像不是這樣子那這個表示什麼呢表示第一個就是說美國的經濟呢還是很有韌性的這是第一點第二點呢也是在反映就是說他的一個政治的不確定性包括就是說如果說川普上台的時候呢恐怕大家都會認為就是說我恐怕對通膨呢又會有不利的影響好像是市場呢也有做這樣的一個反應所以你希望川普當選嗎"},{"start":11422.269,"end":11442.127,"text":"這個我不予置評你都要判斷嘛兩邊當然我覺得中央銀行也會密切密切來關注就是說美國哪一位總統會當選那我們要怎麼那個你現在評比是哪一個比較會當選這個我不好意思在這邊那個那私下再跟我說好謝謝"},{"start":11447.227,"end":11452.944,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11461.314,"end":11481.823,"text":"謝謝羅明財委員齁。蔓一貞蔓一貞蔓一貞委員不在。楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在。張家俊張家俊張家俊委員不在。鄭振權鄭振權鄭振權委員不在。羅志強羅志強羅志強委員不在。習曉新習曉新習曉新委員不在。我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":11501.086,"end":11503.528,"text":"好那我們繼續開會接著我們請吳立法委員質詢謝謝主席有請總裁有請總裁"},{"start":11532.252,"end":11549.425,"text":"總裁您好在夜報當中我們有看到就是中央銀行有預期本年今年跟明年全球經濟是溫和成長的通膨是降溫的那我們看一下"},{"start":11550.906,"end":11566.277,"text":"全球經濟成長率之前央行說這個3月的時候我們看到你們的夜報說這個2024的上半年預期是2.8%那實際最後我們看到是2.7%所以我覺得很準確"},{"start":11570.8,"end":11598.701,"text":"那麼今年的話呢你們是提到2025年你們是提到還是2.8%那我不曉得說總裁您對明年的全球經濟景氣有沒有信心我覺得就是說從今年開始主要的經濟體包括美國啦歐洲啦一些的經濟體重要的經濟體他們都在降息"},{"start":11599.521,"end":11606.547,"text":"那這個降息的時候對全球的經濟是利多那這個表示說國際貿易會增加所以我覺得到目前為止這樣的一個預測我覺得也是應該是合理的"},{"start":11621.88,"end":11643.718,"text":"不過呢就是說經濟的一個預測呢有些時候是也蠻困難的啦因為有很多的不確定因素所以呢這個也就是說每個月或是每個季呢他都會做一些的修改修正所以呢這個我們也會慢慢的會看看他的修正的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":11644.198,"end":11661.773,"text":"我覺得您就是客氣了因為確實目前看起來都很準比如你剛剛講的業報上面也有提到就是預期美英歐日因為它貨幣寬鬆的一個政策我們看到了確實證實精準預測降息對吧"},{"start":11665.836,"end":11680.562,"text":"那我就要請教總裁就是你能夠精準預測各國降息、貨幣寬鬆這些你都能夠精準的預測那對我們國內自己呢?你要如何面對通膨的考驗?"},{"start":11683.245,"end":11697.476,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說就我們台灣的一個物價事實上我們台灣的物價現在是慢慢在下來的你看看我們9月份才1.82我們的核心CPI才1.79那整年的話我們的預測我們整年今年的我們整年在9月份我們的預測是2.16"},{"start":11709.365,"end":11711.267,"text":"我們會每季每季做一些的修正"},{"start":11739.368,"end":11751.315,"text":"那最後就是說因為因為呢就是說國內的經濟國內的一個物價的情況他會有一些不確定因素那這些不確定因素呢你就必須要做一些的調整"},{"start":11752.566,"end":11776.356,"text":"總裁我也是要繼續講你看你預估今年經濟成長率部分回升到3.82%那我們對照一下這個臺灣各季經濟成長率也沒有太失準那2025年預期的成長率就變成是3.08為什麼"},{"start":11779.958,"end":11793.252,"text":"一個呢我覺得我這個也必須要說明一個很重要的因素也就是說我們如果我們今年的一個經濟成長率高的時候呢因為這個是基期的因素基期"},{"start":11794.013,"end":11821.753,"text":"就是說如果說基期高的時候呢你的下一年就會受到這個基期的因素的影響那不過呢雖然是3.08我個人認為明年的經濟成長它是還是持續的所以呢也就是說在我們的另外一頁11頁這邊我們經濟成長你看看我們如果說用季跟季來比較的時候呢你會發現就是說我們的經濟成長它是有動能的"},{"start":11822.453,"end":11847.379,"text":"而且明年它的動能是持續的所以表示說雖然3.08比今年的3.8來得低但是呢它的動能是比今年還強勁一點好這樣了解這個是激起的因素好了解那現在就是很奇怪嘛因為我們來看這一些提到我們的電子資通訊產品很強嘛那傳統產業貨品"},{"start":11851.86,"end":11851.88,"text":"報告．"},{"start":11868.362,"end":11891.919,"text":"阿經濟成長率就降到1.28%那2024年的上半年呢又回升到3.82%阿預估明年的成長率又降到3.08%所以這個部分總裁您也說明一下原因為何我就誠如我剛剛所說的就是說基本上雖然3.08比這個3.85來得"},{"start":11897.304,"end":11898.904,"text":"但是呢經濟成長因為我們的出口會增加的"},{"start":11921.749,"end":11922.009,"text":"總之聽到總裁您這樣一路講你對自己很有信心"},{"start":11946.992,"end":11962.957,"text":"我沒有信心也帶動我們有信心但是我就是希望說因為我希望你針對通膨還有碳費還有房貸緊縮的政策因為我們很關心嘛但是我們也發現過去"},{"start":11964.978,"end":11988.719,"text":"你的表現預測也很精準對自己也很有信心所以我希望說你對於我們這些抗通膨、碳費、房貸緊縮政策你再做一下對民生的影響預測跟因應的措施希望能夠在一個月內提供本席好不好最後也是要了解一個小問題因為上個會期"},{"start":11991.101,"end":11992.402,"text":"我先是不是請我們的財經公司來回答你這個問題來請"},{"start":12018.203,"end":12043.744,"text":"委員好,跟委員報告其實LiPay因為它是算第三方支付它不是電子支付機構所以根據金管會的這個電子支付管理條例來看的話它是不能夠加到這個平台上面來所以現在LiPay所以LiPay它可能需要去申請變成電子支付機構才可以加到這個平台上面來那目前進度如何?"},{"start":12044.585,"end":12068.033,"text":"這個LiPay去申請電子支付機構的時候我們沒有確確的資料因為它是他們公司的政策因為我特別要講的就是說從消費者的角度所以那個時候才會有這樣的諮詢所以我還是希望說就一併就是一個月內呢希望可以給我一個精進跟辦理的方式的一個報告"},{"start":12069.313,"end":12069.434,"text":"邀請邱志偉委員"},{"start":12101.322,"end":12103.228,"text":"謝謝主席,有請楊總裁好,請總裁"},{"start":12112.407,"end":12135.704,"text":"總裁早9月19日理事會召開然後做第七次第七度系統管制措施的決議那你們協處措施是10月9日才發布我是建議這個方向是正確但是你應當是跟協處措施一起公告才對"},{"start":12137.304,"end":12138.065,"text":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍"},{"start":12151.067,"end":12175.452,"text":"市場或購屋者需求端或供給端對你們這個管制具體的內容並不是那麼了解所以說應當未來有重大的決策的時候應當同步針對協助措施應當你們要設想好要同時公告比如哪些是排除的、繼承的、換屋者的"},{"start":12179.115,"end":12183.643,"text":"總總那你的排除條款要一併出來不然二十幾天大家問來問去那個總裁你有什麼看法"},{"start":12190.071,"end":12209.021,"text":"我覺得委員講的也沒有錯就是說協處的措施如果說在當時一併提出來我想那是理想不過協處措施基本上是銀行在執行的時候這是比較細節一點的"},{"start":12210.902,"end":12231.324,"text":"所以呢也就是說我們在做這個選擇性信用管制的時候呢協處措施只是比較是執行面比較細節面所以呢這個在我們的這個管制措施要宣布的當時呢我們是不會就是說馬上因為因為這個裡面呢會涉及到就是說"},{"start":12232.265,"end":12232.705,"text":"我跟委員報告．"},{"start":12248.07,"end":12262.936,"text":"像像譬如說換屋換屋的話呢第一個我們上一次我們換屋的協助措施我們就已經有啊那我們只是說我們除了就換屋以外呢我們也在聽聽一下看看有哪些的譬如說劇劇成的"},{"start":12264.377,"end":12290.401,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12291.141,"end":12308.052,"text":"這個這個下去第七波下去對這個這一項的一個新新設的一個限制呢下去的時候呢那我玩第一個他就會他就會反映出來這個你們是政策的這個制定者但是你對這個政策下去所所做相關的影響"},{"start":12309.033,"end":12327.254,"text":"你們應該做事前的評估不過就是說委員的建議是對的啦是不是沒有錯啦不過呢我總覺得我們的補救措施也不是說很慢譬如說我們一個月以後並不是這種補救措施你們在政策推出來之前"},{"start":12327.734,"end":12328.195,"text":"是是是是是是是"},{"start":12346.118,"end":12346.719,"text":"我是覺得以後"},{"start":12369.222,"end":12383.898,"text":"是是是同時好我們我們來我們來來來那你這個你針對換屋者可以先買後賣對一年的期限是那決定權是在銀行端對不對"},{"start":12385.111,"end":12388.135,"text":"一年的時候呢我們就說銀行呢你就是必須要做這樣的一個管制"},{"start":12400.391,"end":12415.768,"text":"我們如果說做真和協主措施的時候我們會公告而且我們會通知銀行所以我們在專題報告裡面我們的附件這邊Q&A主要的就是要告訴銀行你就是根據這個來辦理"},{"start":12417.777,"end":12445.055,"text":"對啦,他說銀行得取消寬限期收回貸款本金或貸款成數的差額,對喔,不是因喔,這個為銀行端沒點是完全的叫你的機器來驚喔是,由銀行來決定啦,我們是希望他這樣子做啦如果說,好啦,我這個我比較我比較仁慈一點給你一年兩個月,一年三個月,或者給你兩年,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":12447.716,"end":12474.327,"text":"我想呢我們如果說是規定一年除非呢除非他有特別的一個原因那特別的原因呢銀行會告訴我們我們如果說我們了解之後呢覺得就是說他的這個個案是非常特殊的非常特殊的話也許可以延長這個就是說個案有些時候個案是非常複雜的有些是房子是要用都更為老"},{"start":12474.787,"end":12477.428,"text":"這個委員我們會考量 各案也有各案的這個排除性 以簽約的自然的以簽約的 這個可以排除"},{"start":12492.672,"end":12519.578,"text":"那所謂簽約是跟銀行端簽約還是跟建設公司簽約?不,跟建設公司簽約它是另外一塊的簽約那跟銀行的簽約是又跟銀行的簽約,它這兩個,不過...不是啊,你的排除是...排除是...跟銀行端簽約...不是,不是,因為它不是...它就是說只要你的我們的管制措施是這樣子如果說你到時候你"},{"start":12521.198,"end":12534.934,"text":"要你簽訂契約那進來這裡的時候呢跟銀行申請就是一樣的都可以都可以收到我跟這個在920之前919之前我就已經跟這個建設公司簽約了"},{"start":12536.315,"end":12536.676,"text":"訂金也負了"},{"start":12554.236,"end":12567.314,"text":"我跟委員報告只要就是說你是第一戶第二戶你進來銀行那就沒有問題如果說你第三戶第四戶第五戶的那些的話那你就要根據你要根據那個定型化契約去走"},{"start":12568.393,"end":12595.727,"text":"定型化契約因為內政部他也有公告一個你買方跟建設公司他簽訂的一個契約如果說雙方這個這個我們在我們的新聞稿裡面我們也有我們也有PO出來啊這是內政部他所管轄的一個範圍這個定型化契約裡面他也定那那是要歸則於誰所以呢也就是說他的契約裡面他就會訂定啊"},{"start":12597.813,"end":12605.921,"text":"如果說這個部分我把相關的資料我給委員參考我私下我給委員參考對那如果如果說是不是不可規則於雙方的話那這樣的話就要根據這個定型的話契約來走"},{"start":12619.52,"end":12634.358,"text":"那這個有規定那我們把這個規定送給委員參考就是說我的結論就是說協署跟你的政策這個管制作為你要一併出來這個我們來研究研究好好謝謝"},{"start":12638.237,"end":12648.35,"text":"好,謝謝這位委員。葉延芝葉延芝葉延芝委員不在。高金素美高金素美高金素美委員不在。好本席在這裡報跟"},{"start":12652.608,"end":12677.305,"text":"跟大家做一個報告今日登記的花園委員均已詢答完畢本次會議做成如下的決定報告跟詢答完畢委員質詢未及時答覆或請補充資訊請中央銀行一周內已書面答覆委員如果有另外要求期限者則其鎖定"},{"start":12678.686,"end":12699.696,"text":"委員王鴻薇、楊崇英委員所提的書面執行．那今已列入記錄、刊登公報．並請中央銀行以書面答覆。本次會議議程已進行完畢．若是有不在場的委員補提書面的執行．一併列入記錄、刊登公報．並請議事人員協助處理。散會。"},{"start":12725.93,"end":12750.708,"text":"響鐘。響鐘。"}]}},{"id":"155697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065458336362e7a273bdd2452f52fd1b36196f892b6d7a78c0a182b5bed1764569a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"11:06:41 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還有很開心今天遇到這麼多家長、老師代表以及我們教育部的官員還有學生等等剛剛也有花時間跟學生聊一聊那我今天真的是花滿多時間在這裡因為我也是受害者 我也是成癮者"},{"start":18.817,"end":34.148,"text":"所以我非常關心這個議題那也謝謝昭緯舉辦這樣子的公聽會因為很明顯剛剛已經聽到很多數據了世界上的趨勢已經看出嚴重性所以我們從德國、法國還有美國的某一些州"},{"start":34.989,"end":53.344,"text":"大家是開始限制那目前其實南韓的年輕人也有蠻大的反彈因為南韓的立法委員們也在研擬這樣子的立法所以我們今天聚在這邊其實都是為了自己的小孩我是三寶媽我也是一個醫師跟剛剛很多委員一樣會因為手機產生各式各樣的衝突"},{"start":58.468,"end":58.649,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":75.873,"end":96.107,"text":"這手機是不離身的因為黨團的訊息是從早到晚所以我自己都覺得我在這邊是更加的嚴重啊所以下班回家我看到他們三個在滑我就一路滑到要睡前我就非常神奇我說不然我現在要開始沒收他們就回我說你沒有發現你自己也滑了一整晚嗎"},{"start":97.268,"end":114.413,"text":"而且我是自己一邊用一邊叫他們把手機放下剛剛那個親子天下的總編輯很感謝你有來到現場因為過曝時代的心理韌性調查報告這個我也看了孩子們因為手機不在身邊而感到焦慮"},{"start":115.213,"end":115.253,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":140.27,"end":159.907,"text":"網上不看LINE怕有重要事情又錯過了我曾經訪問過一位手機APP的程式設計師他說對他們而言他們有一個很重要的KPI就是要讓你上映所以他自己講的他說我一天花10個小時當手機工程師設計這個APP就是為了讓你上映啊你如何"},{"start":169.736,"end":183.068,"text":"每一個APP經過我們的醫學精神科醫學統計就是你在用的時候就給你多巴胺它是讓你有一點心快感所以當你沒有用的時候你會覺得很難過正向的感受會降低"},{"start":184.338,"end":204.333,"text":"所以我們知道說討論到這個成癮的問題就是控制他不要用可能也不是很有效的方法因為這個當他開始用的時候這個Dopamine又升高了所以我們很難用意志力去克服手機成癮而是我們必須要用科學的方法來協助、借儲"},{"start":205.254,"end":232.053,"text":"所以因此我就找了一些醫學的論文去報導指出說小朋友或是成人有這樣子成癮的一大因素其實就是環境所以我們應該要透過環境的管控來影響他們的使用習慣戒除這個癮症但是其實我們今天一直講教育部、教育部、學校等等結果統計起來其實他最常使用手機平板的時段是在家中"},{"start":233.654,"end":260.161,"text":"國內有做過這個調查啦中小學的學生我說比較年紀輕當然高中生大學生很多時間都已經不在家裡了所以他使用網路的地點多在家中而且使用的時間是假日多於平時也就是說我們要協助學生少用的話家庭是一個非常重要的因素所以我自己常常去找這些資源要幫忙剛有講到說教育部有提供"},{"start":261.041,"end":261.462,"text":"公聽會：陳菁徽"},{"start":280.083,"end":280.363,"text":"公聽會：陳菁徽"},{"start":296.201,"end":318.854,"text":"有開YouTube頻道的立委同仁們實在使用率實在是太低了我們全國有這麼多的家長學生需要所以我去讀了中小學家長數位學習知能指引這個不誇張它總共有84頁裡面居然只有一頁談到我們要如何預防學生成癮"},{"start":319.935,"end":342.772,"text":"你可以回去翻一下這83頁是講什麼呢是講我們數位學習的演進他是怎麼來的AI好棒棒他有多有效他的重要性在哪裡他對學習的幫助有多大那未來的願景是怎麼樣結果家長翻開了這一本學習知能指引居然只有一頁沒有具體的方法喔他就只是告訴你說但是喔你在輔導學生做這個"},{"start":345.874,"end":360.935,"text":"知能學習的時候一定要注意到不要讓他上癮我想表達的是我作為一個三保媽家長的立場看著孩子滑手機我自己很焦慮可是我自己也用這麼多我要如何說服他不要用"},{"start":362.856,"end":381.642,"text":"我相信多數的家長也很無助所以我希望教育部進一步考慮是否禁用手機之前同步思考如何協助家長陪伴孩子跨越手機使用的不良習慣不要最後是家長跟孩子一起滑從科技冷漠變成家庭冷漠"},{"start":382.202,"end":402.869,"text":"我在這邊非常具體的建議如果召委有興趣您也可以請臺大兒家中心的過來做一個presentation因為兒家中心啊大家現在只要查他們的網站他出了一個幫助家長的陪孩子在數位網路世代成長的指南那又叫做網影手冊"},{"start":404.77,"end":404.87,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":420.077,"end":439.662,"text":"他就說你幾歲應該要給小孩子手機舉了一個例子再來如果你跟小孩因為網路吵架怎麼辦那什麼狀況你要帶他去看醫生他拒絕你應該要怎麼辦為什麼你小孩喜歡玩暴力的網路遊戲你小孩為什麼會在網路上交友為什麼你孩子想當網紅"},{"start":441.002,"end":466.994,"text":"你如何觀察你小孩是網路去霸凌別人的人還是是霸凌的受害者那為什麼他會想要花錢買點數他一個一個很實用的例子列出來這樣家長才會去用不然你教育部做這個手冊根本對我們來說一點都不實用所以我很希望說未來我們可以一起在這個場域再更深入的去探討學校、教育部、家長"},{"start":468.174,"end":468.314,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":499.514,"end":499.635,"text":"非常謝謝陳菁"}]}},{"id":"155707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306538576e2685c6ffd3dd2452f52fd1b36196f892b6d7a78c0aa3a65f0a64d6ccd15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:30:40 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過度依賴"},{"start":359.974,"end":360.795,"text":"我所有在科技業的朋友偷偷的都告訴我"},{"start":385.936,"end":405.602,"text":"詞下開會聊天就可以告訴我所有的APP設計所有的社群平台設計都是為了黏住大家我們大人自己都很清楚對不對你就算不看短影音的你下去試試看有一個小孩告訴我們就像吃洋芋片一樣大家吃洋芋片的心情是什麼你會決定吃完五片我把盒子蓋起來嗎"},{"start":407.162,"end":407.542,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":434.218,"end":439.695,"text":"我們也要積極地面對這件事情企業社會責任我們必須要共同來面對最後"},{"start":441.412,"end":464.783,"text":"過曝世代是最近出版的一本書大家都看過了我也看過但是我要談我們年底台灣即將出版這本《焦慮的世代》與其講過曝不如講焦慮孩子們面對的困境如同瑞玲說的我們不想被禁止可是我們想被協助我再說一次這麼多年我在做親子教育的時候我都告訴家長青少年沒有不要被你管他想要被你有理的管"},{"start":465.871,"end":466.251,"text":"陳培瑜委員"}]}},{"id":"155669","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155669","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30653e9c4d4414ac673add2452f52fd1b361a9373a247fb1bb1c09fd7804f724e0895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:02:53 - 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對不對那現在沒有外國人依照自由貿易港區設立管理條例的這個10條控股公司"},{"start":131.306,"end":146.845,"text":"因為有人跟我説是因為這個規定僅能辦理不涉及新台幣的外幣的匯兌和外幣的交易那如果未來開放金融特區的時候那你們的說法是外幣跟外幣比如說美元跟歐元之間的這個你們不管嘛"},{"start":147.666,"end":165.862,"text":"但是涉及新台幣的部分是不是有進一步開放的可能呢還是說你們還是會以避險這個原則來去做相關的管理我們來看看他的情況他是到底是怎麼樣要來避險的事實上以現在目前的避險的工序也是蠻多的"},{"start":168.284,"end":172.506,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上呢他如果說在這個特區裡面他要做怎麼樣的一個避嫌那我們會配合他"},{"start":190.916,"end":211.555,"text":"所以我想這個是不會．所以對於金管會所提出來相當相關的建議．你們會支持就對了．你們會支持,我們都會支持好,那我想請問喔．不要只是口頭上的說要支持．行動上對於金管會想要打造賴總統所宣誓的這個亞洲資產管理中心．也要行動上具體支持．"},{"start":215.158,"end":235.155,"text":"那我們看後續的發展然後接著你看台灣金融研訓院跟美國智庫最近有進行中國主要以金融經濟手段資訊網路圍攻台灣的兵推這個16日在華府發表報告那金融研訓院倡議說台灣要加入國際貨幣資金和美國簽署貨幣互換協定強化台灣的金融韌性你知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":242.361,"end":267.069,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上呢我們針對這個我們也發布新聞稿對你們發布的新聞是8號的時候說台灣外匯純利充裕啊取得美元流動機制完備所以目前沒有與其他國家央行簽署貨幣互換機制施法的必要性那你的這個延訓宴延訓宴是你們下面的單位嗎還是我們下面的單位延訓宴是今天延訓宴說是"},{"start":267.609,"end":270.69,"text":"所以我們才會就是說這個好像他講起來的時候好像是非常嚴重的一件事"},{"start":295.959,"end":312.416,"text":"那就我們來講事實上呢反正你覺得金龍研訓院所在美國跟美國資助所提的這個是沒有必要的啦沒有必要好我確認一下說因為感覺好像這個政府的研訓院跟這個我們的央行的這個不一樣因為說法好像有點完全不一樣我跟委員報告因為研訓院對這一塊他不了解"},{"start":314.258,"end":315.639,"text":"我覺得我們加入的可能性有多高啊?"},{"start":328.899,"end":328.919,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":350.829,"end":358.133,"text":"你說現在美元的流通機制完備嘛,流通性無虞那請問如果發生戰爭的時候會產生大量礦匯潮到時候還有辦法維持嗎?對於這個問題我們是隨時都在準備所以我可以站在這裡跟委員報告請放心我們隨時都在準備"},{"start":378.865,"end":379.145,"text":"本席很﹑"},{"start":407.802,"end":425.94,"text":"支持央行做這個第七波這個這個信用管制就有關打房我甚至認為事實上呃陳如我們總裁所說的這個就是因為有那個預期心理啊國人普遍有的預期心理覺得房價就是會一直一直的漲所以很多的資金都湧入到"},{"start":426.34,"end":446.169,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":446.249,"end":468.394,"text":"可不可以還有下一波呢?我想就是說要看一段時間因為我覺得觀察一段時間如果說效果不夠還不排除因為我也在強調就是說對於健全房地產的這個方案不是只有中央銀行還有其他財政部、金管會各個部會都要做你們扮演龍頭的角色沒有就龍頭大家一起來"},{"start":474.195,"end":489.085,"text":"所以說不排除要看一下這個房市的發展我們看看我們滾動式檢討啦滾動式檢討啦那現在有個問題就是說在這樣打房的過程中比如說以我自己的選區金門為例可能會遇到的問題"},{"start":489.565,"end":507.108,"text":"賴賴"},{"start":507.108,"end":534.701,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":534.701,"end":550.452,"text":"﹗"},{"start":550.452,"end":570.896,"text":"﹗"},{"start":571.016,"end":595.057,"text":"也會有這樣的情形請央行是不是想一下說這個部分針對比如說地區的發展需要這樣的建設的時候怎麼樣來協助我們這個離島地區要做這個產業的相關發展可以嗎我想就是說委員在講的這個因為有很多的個案都是很所以這個我們會來跟我們的同仁來了解了解討論討論我覺得我們都會"},{"start":599.141,"end":600.924,"text":"基於幫助的立場來解決問題。"}]}},{"id":"155658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155658","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065ac49884131e20ce1dd2452f52fd1b361dbe885aa460c75b3e4cb2d64d064a9e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:36:39 - 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但畢竟原則是原則而且很多的第一線教育工作者確實也反映沒有強制立或是沒有相關立法確實好像會變成是說中央又推給地方來因地制宜或是各自負責"},{"start":398.542,"end":425.879,"text":"所以是不是要有更進一步的一個指引出來我想是需要的那如果說有需要的話就不只是針對手機包括穿戴裝置包括現在流行的所謂的這個虛擬眼鏡等等的也應該一併考慮那最後我想還有一個更重要的是是不是能夠請教育部也會同速發部衛福部、文化部來找幾個相關平台做更嚴謹的年齡分類"},{"start":428.36,"end":451.453,"text":"我們看到YouTube它可以針對說小朋友來研發一個YouTube Kids或者是說他來登記的時候你的年齡有更準確的一個分類的一個制度那其他國家有沒有這樣的一個方向那以及我們能不能針對短影音平台針對交友平台我們要求一定要更嚴謹的年齡分級來確保"},{"start":456.84,"end":486.041,"text":"未成年的青少年等等的他不會輕易的變成是來上這樣的一個APP來去使用而進一步造成後續衍生的一些社會問題我想拋出來那也感謝趙偉今天再一次的這個召開這樣的一個非常重要的公聽會那很抱歉雖然我沒有辦法全程參與我們公聽會但我都會請我們的同仁在辦公室觀看直播並且記錄每一個專家學者的發言以作為我們未來修法以及推動的一個參考"},{"start":486.761,"end":489.448,"text":"再次祝福大家平安健康感謝大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"155717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30658e910787f405155add2452f52fd1b361f31331746fe9cf8032eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:54:20 - 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那我們就說那如果這樣子因為我們一個重要原則嘛健康是非常重要的事情那你為什麼因為你就花很多錢啊投資在這些線上遊戲啊那所以你就因為有些是靠時間累積嘛你才可以升級等等的那我就找他來聊這件事情我就說如果這樣使用的話好像違反了我們最終的一個原則叫做健康"},{"start":176.949,"end":177.429,"text":"公聽委員：張雅琳公聽委員：張雅琳"},{"start":203.342,"end":223.308,"text":"但她一直都沒有提出來因為她對她自己也不是非常的相信那我想講這件事情其實就是說其實我覺得當然這個世界的趨勢一直不停的在做很多的變化那其實各國都有一些相關的控制所謂的控制跟管制但我還是希望可以回到一個更民主因為我們還是希望可以兒童可以來參與表達他自己的一些想法跟意見"},{"start":224.048,"end":249.681,"text":"所以是不是可以在一個框架之內呢就是說我們還是要尊重不影響課堂使用因為你可能一直在滑手機啊聲音啊傳資訊影響到別人的隱私啊等等的我們可不可以在一個框架之下讓每一班的孩子都有機會去建立一個屬於手機的使用規範因為像我的小孩子第二個小孩他後來四年級的時候他們班上就有討論這件事情因為自學生更自由嘛大家可能"},{"start":250.501,"end":279.195,"text":"那老師的確造成了一些影響所以老師後來就是談了一個手機的規範之後同學們就follow就是他們在課堂上面絕對不會用手機只有在整個學校結束之後為了要跟爸爸媽媽聯繫上車的地點等等他們才會使用手機所以我自己會希望說我們可以討論一個收集大家的意見討論一個框架出來然後在這個框架裡面是不是可以還是可以讓各班去各地來因時制定自己的版本那最後我也想要再提也是一樣是我兒子的案例其實在暑假期間我就有看到說"},{"start":280.296,"end":295.378,"text":"你怎麼週末都不跟朋友出去玩因為暑假期間你怎麼平常都不跟同學出去玩他說我同學都在補習好 那週末了上課我就說那週末總是不用補習了吧他說沒有 我同學還是在補習對所以呢他要去哪裡做人際連結"},{"start":296.994,"end":313.32,"text":"他只能去上網他上網才可以找到人可以跟他一起玩不然他真的很無聊那他不會想跟爸爸媽媽玩嗎那其實這件事情我覺得是一個我們也必須注意的他到底有沒有機會去可以跟別人連結剛剛校長有提到說是不是可以去打籃球"},{"start":314.06,"end":314.361,"text":"張雅琳教授"},{"start":328.897,"end":354.144,"text":"這是現在學生的真實樣貌啦所以我自己會去思考就是說我們有沒有在課堂的空間裡面我們是不是可以調整課程的份量等等有一些空間讓他可以去跟人進行真實的互動真實的連結進行更多的社交練習因為這個對他來說未來是非常重要因為他總是要出社會跟別人做社交溝通嘛所以這個東西其實是非常非常重要的那最後呢"},{"start":355.782,"end":378.097,"text":"我想要提醒一件事情就是說其實美國在一個叫Peter Gray的一個心理學家也非常非常的有名他在2011年的時候就有關注到美國自殺率暴增的一個問題然後他就開始去推測他覺得遊戲時間減少也是一個原因所以我自己會認為說我們現在可能在家長的教育上面從出生開始"},{"start":379.878,"end":405.316,"text":"就要讓他開始建立有更多戶外大肢體跟人互動練習的一些機會而不是說從小我們可能家長就會直接擺了一個手機這個我覺得是社會大家要一起來努力的啦就是說不管是教育部也好或是衛福部也好大家其實都要一起來努力因為其實現在大家只要聽到我現在常常在那個臉書啊或是Trade上面看到很多你們家長小朋友出了聲音之後就被拍上網然後就開始"},{"start":406.437,"end":406.577,"text":"主席"},{"start":434.922,"end":435.265,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"155818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f025d378a81482d7aa4009fd1c3043021eeccf4f5c33c47a5898574eeade4413eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:06:06 - 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報告委員我們臺中建議會依照我們保外意志的審核基準跟管理辦法審核基準是什麼規定?來做相關的修正所以呢 修正之後的結果呢陳水扁的這些行為符合你們自己所定的這個審核基準的辦法嗎?"},{"start":331.311,"end":343.1,"text":"他是日常生活所必須嗎?參加國慶大典是他日常生活所必須嗎?擔任他的女兒的訴訟代理人是主持廣播節目是跟他生活有關嗎?"},{"start":344.326,"end":369.888,"text":"是,臺中監獄會參考高雄義大跟高雄長庚醫院的醫組包括他的出遊、黃遊、去參他是醫組上面認為對他的治療是有正面意義的好,所以呢治療到現在10年了確實是頗有成效他是完全恢復正常這樣的情況之下為什麼他可以不重返回到監獄裡面去服刑"},{"start":371.448,"end":395.53,"text":"全國人民都在看都在看你法務部怎麼做報告委員陳水扁的身心狀況他還是有必要再做職能治療的他不是說已經我一直說他未來出獄之後他還要這個工作嗎事實證明他的職能恢復的很好啊還幫他的女兒去當訴訟律師啊"},{"start":397.702,"end":419.261,"text":"所長您今天說這句話您都不覺得慚愧嗎?你曉得現在保外就醫的受刑人在保外就醫的期間他的死亡率有多高?你知道嗎?我們常常看到新聞保外就醫的受刑人可能短短一兩個月的時間可能就往生了"},{"start":421.535,"end":441.385,"text":"從你們自己做到報告裡面我告訴你大概一半以上的受刑人保外居的受刑人在保外就醫期間就過世了委員應該有收到我們的數據我們累積今年總共有499位在外面保外醫治那今年累積到9月份有129人死亡"},{"start":445.629,"end":467.831,"text":"我希望矯正署法務部這裡你們可以把保外就醫的這個受刑人他們出獄的治療的期間還有什麼時候回去以及他的死亡是出獄他的保外就醫在外面多久的時間之內他就過就是就往生你們要把這些數據全部講得清清楚楚"},{"start":469.076,"end":488.894,"text":"本席昨天研究了這張表我看了很久我後來今天重新計算我告訴你大概就是像是人權促進會講的啦出去一半以上五六成的這個保衛就醫的受刑人都會往生而且事實上本來就是他如果不是很嚴重的疾病你介乎就醫就可以了啊"},{"start":491.107,"end":502.973,"text":"小鎮屬臺中監獄至於這個政部長我真的希望你們能夠把司法的公平正義隨時要放在心裡放在你們的腦海裡啊今天為什麼陳水扁的這個事情會讓可能慶仇會也忘記了也淡忘了全社會的人都淡忘了他是一個貪污犯他被判刑20年"},{"start":519.179,"end":521.401,"text":"為什麼到現在法院可以停審這麼久而我們的檢察官也沒有主動的向法院提起說要繼續審判法務部是不是也失職 檢察官怎麼失職這個停審的事件 台北地檢署有多次的發函敦請法院要開始麻煩請把這個數據給我"},{"start":543.575,"end":550.537,"text":"至少以後我不會誤會說地檢署失職這是很嚴重的問題我們刑法裡面其實都有處罰濫權不起訴或不處罰或不執行處罰的罪那這個相關的數據我就在跟我們在書面今天講到這個事情其實我真的認為全台灣的人民都在看"},{"start":568.564,"end":594.838,"text":"我已經不止一次的從我擔任立法委員以來我就一直很在意這個事情為什麼 如果說是認為陳水扁他之前當過總統那現在做民進黨執政已經前面8年接下來未來4年那念在過去的情分上總統就給他特赦啊 我也沒有意見啊但是在沒有特赦的情況之下為什麼可以容許一個"},{"start":596.766,"end":596.866,"text":"說不過去："},{"start":608.531,"end":634.404,"text":"大法官他這個做了死刑合憲的有條件合憲設了那麼多的門檻這已經引起了這個民情的重憤我相信陳水扁的事情同樣也是你知道網絡上面怎麼講嗎10月10號是我們的國慶日沒有錯全部的人都很開心都要慶祝這個國慶日但同時也是司法的這個司法支持日啊很難想像"},{"start":638.892,"end":663.994,"text":"這樣的一個這麼明顯的一個受刑人貪污犯竟然可以後面做的是司法院院長還有法務部長情何以堪我本來還有準備另外一題不過沒關係我就等到下一次我希望法務部還有矯正署你們可以將這個保外就醫的"},{"start":665.074,"end":665.275,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":678.851,"end":678.951,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時6分）召委好，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長好。首先，我想請教部長，上星期的國慶日您有去參加總統府前的國慶大會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：您當時坐在哪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我坐的地區是往北……"],["翁委員曉玲：是在主要的貴賓席嗎？VVIP的貴賓席嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，貴賓席，跟各部會首長坐在一起。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我想請問一下，您當天與貪污犯陳水扁同臺，您內心的感受是如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我是沒有注意到……"],["翁委員曉玲：您沒有注意到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個後來是……"],["翁委員曉玲：陳水扁當天是參加國慶大典，然後……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在新聞有看到，但是我沒有看他坐在哪裡。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您不知道他要參加國慶大會的活動嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是有這個訊息說會參加國慶。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這個事情你有同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他事前有向矯正署、臺中監獄申請核准，可以參加國慶大會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是臺中監獄在做處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：矯正署不知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是不是請矯正署代為回答，好嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，今天周署長有來是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，來。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們臺中監獄每個月都會派員過去探視。針對國慶，陳水扁本身在9月24號的時候，臺中監獄有特別叮嚀他，有相關活動務必要事先來報告，在9號……"],["翁委員曉玲：他有事先報告嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：那時候還沒有。臺中監獄在10月9號的時候有主動掌握了陳水扁要出席10月10號的國慶大典，所以我們臺中監獄也有派專人到場蒐證。據初步的了解，因為這是慶籌會──國慶籌備委員會的一個邀請卡，而且總統府也有專人打電話給陳水扁先生，要慶祝國家的生日。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，簡單來說，就是因為總統說要邀陳水扁出席，所以臺中監獄雖然前一天就掌握了資訊，可是沒有辦法，還是只能夠陪同去蒐證，然後也沒有直接告訴陳水扁，你不能夠參加國慶大會，是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄是有勸導說是不是可以不要去，但是陳水扁是……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我必須要講，這件事情在本席的眼裡，我認為它就是司法最大的恥辱。當天陳水扁坐在VVIP的貴賓席上面，後面是司法院院長，然後部長您雖不是在正中間的，但也在主席臺旁邊的貴賓席，您怎麼可能會不知道陳水扁參加國慶大典？一個貪污犯跟我們現在司法機關最重要的兩位首長同臺，狠狠地將司法尊嚴踩在腳下，這不是司法最大的挫敗跟恥辱嗎？我必須說本席非常在意的，就是司法的公平正義，我希望我們臺灣、中華民國是法治國家，而不是權貴治國啊！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，可以容我回答嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請說。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，這次陳水扁出席國慶大典，他是由慶籌會來邀請的，而且是經過核定。"],["翁委員曉玲：慶籌會有慶籌會的角色，但是你們可以不同意，是不是？過去你們有同意過嗎？好，我們看下一頁。基本上，對於陳水扁，他已經保外就醫將近10年，現在已經延長39次了，我不知道臺中監獄這10年來，是對於陳水扁的表現視若無睹嗎？他可以主持廣播節目，他可以代理他女兒去當訴訟的律師，然後參加各式各樣的活動，甚至還參加國慶大典，在陳水扁的眼裡，他會認為你們會不同意嗎？你們過去都沒有蒐證嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：有，報告委員，我們臺中監獄會依照我們保外醫治的審核基準跟管理辦法以及醫囑……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我們看下一頁，審核基準是怎麼規定？"],["周署長輝煌：來做相關的蒐證。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以蒐證之後的結果呢？陳水扁的這些行為符合你們自己所訂的審核基準辦法嗎？他是日常生活所必須嗎？參加國慶大典也是他日常生活所必須嗎？擔任他女兒的訴訟代理人、主持廣播節目，是跟他生活有關嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄會參考高雄義大跟高雄長庚醫院的醫囑，包括他的出遊、訪友、聚餐……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以如果這些醫生做了假醫囑，你們都不管嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：醫囑上面認為對他的治療是有正面意義。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以呢？他治療到現在10年了，確實是頗有成效，他是完全恢復正常，在這樣的情況之下，為什麼他可以不重返、回到監獄裡面去服刑？全國人民都在看，都在看你法務部怎麼做。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，陳水扁的身心狀況，他還是有必要再做職能治療的，他不是已經完全恢復到一般正常人的狀態。"],["翁委員曉玲：你的意思是說他未來出獄之後，他還要工作嗎？事實證明他的職能恢復得很好啊！還幫他的女兒去當訴訟律師啊！署長，您今天說這句話，你都不覺得慚愧嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：我們所了解……"],["翁委員曉玲：你曉得現在保外就醫的受刑人，在外保外就醫期間，他的死亡率有多高，你知道嗎？我們常常看到新聞，保外就醫的受刑人可能短短一、兩個月的時間就往生了。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：從你們自己做的報告裡面，我告訴你，大概一半以上的保外就醫受刑人在保外就醫期間就過世了。"],["周署長輝煌：委員應該有收到我們的數據，我們累計到今年總共有499位在外面保外醫治，累計到9月份有129人死亡。"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，你們那個數字，我現在要講的就是，我希望矯正署、法務部這裡，你們可以把保外就醫的受刑人，他們出獄治療的期間，還有什麼時候回去，以及他的死亡是在保外就醫多久的時間之內就往生，你們要把這些數據全部講得清清楚楚。本席昨天研究了你這張表，我看了很久，我後來今天重新計算，我告訴你，大概就像是人權促進會講的啦，出去一半以上，五、六成的保外就醫受刑人都會往生，而且事實上本來他如果不是很嚴重的疾病，你戒護就醫就可以了啊！矯正署、臺中監獄乃至於鄭部長，我真的希望你們能夠隨時把司法的公平正義放在心裡，放在你們的腦海裡啊！今天為什麼陳水扁的這個事情會讓……可能慶籌會也忘記了，也淡忘了，全社會的人都淡忘了他是一個貪污犯，他被判刑20年，為什麼到現在法院可以停審這麼久？而我們的檢察官也沒有主動地向法院提起說要繼續審判？法務部是不是也失職，檢察官有沒有失職？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個停審的事件，臺北地檢署有多次的發函，敦請法院要開始……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，麻煩請把這個數據給我。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，另外……"],["翁委員曉玲：至少以後我不會誤會說地檢署失職，對不對？這是很嚴重的問題，我們刑法裡面其實都有濫權、不起訴、不處罰或不執行處罰的罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個相關的數據，我們再用書面跟……"],["翁委員曉玲：今天講到這個事情，其實我真的認為全臺灣的人民都在看，我已經不只一次了，從我擔任立法委員以來，我就一直很在意這個事情，為什麼？如果認為陳水扁他之前當過總統，現在民進黨執政，前面已經有8年，接下來未來還有4年，念在過去的情分上，總統就給他特赦，我也沒有意見啊！但是在沒有特赦的情況之下，為什麼容許一個保外就醫長達10年的受刑人、貪污犯，可以參加各式各樣的活動慶典？說不過去啦！對不對？大法官他做了死刑有條件合憲，設了那麼多的門檻，這已經引起了民情眾憤，我相信陳水扁的事情同樣也是。你知道網路上面怎麼講嗎？10月10號是我們的國慶日，沒有錯，全部的人都很開心，要慶祝國慶日，但同時也是司法之恥日啊！很難想像這麼明顯的受刑人、貪污犯，竟然後面坐的是司法院院長還有法務部長，情何以堪？我本來還有準備另外一題，不過沒關係，我就等到下一次，我希望法務部還有矯正署你們可以將保外就醫的受刑人，如同你們現在表格上面所寫的，再多增加幾個項目，保外就醫平均的時間是多少，然後多少的時間之內就會往生，對不對？很多的數據資料都要公開，要讓民眾了解你們到底做了些什麼，每一次為什麼可以核准他在外面活動，這些資訊難道不應該公開嗎？麻煩你們一個月之內給我一份報告，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：那麼請部長會後提供，謝謝翁委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。","接下來請洪委員孟楷質詢，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},{"id":"155748","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155748","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30654cf030b9811f204860efc051a48f213586d136366eabd3fbb801796c5b68923c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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部長"},{"start":208.052,"end":234.467,"text":"我想我們對原住民的輔導其實有不同的面向從技術端就是將原住民原來的技術做一些改良而已就是依照他的地景跟他的文化那這個部分我們在所謂的改良場有一個團隊我們就是原力團隊那那個原力團隊就是針對原住民部落的在地的這些作物去處理那第二個部分就是後端的市場的媒合那是更重要的"},{"start":235.847,"end":252.452,"text":"紅藜在大概6、7年前曾經崩盤那那個部分就是有一些刻意的外面的商人進去做炒作所以我們一直不希望用這樣的方式我們希望說後端有市場前端才種植的這樣連結那現在做得好嗎"},{"start":255.633,"end":266.023,"text":"我想現在慢慢的特別是在針對有一些原住民剝落包括小米那我跟部長說齁其實我要講的是說我們這種是點滴式的輔導阿你應該清楚我在講什麼是我了解人民會也好農糧署也好水保署也好對有在協助但是點滴式的輔導"},{"start":278.53,"end":298.057,"text":"他不是長期 不是永續 不是全盤所以我在這邊其實是要講另外一個問題因為你看這個是東埔那個地方在做小米的富裕可是我們發現我們好多的小米在富裕的時候竟然是由美國的總原庫帶回來的這是蠻悲哀的一件事情"},{"start":302.078,"end":322.412,"text":"難道原住民族想要在自己的土地用自己的方式種自己的作物有那麼困難嗎我們現在花很多錢在附贈我們的語言但是我們有很多的東西需要附贈回來因為那個才是真正符合在地我們所需要的這些所以呢我們原民會"},{"start":323.493,"end":343.002,"text":"我們會有一個原住民族傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例的草案那到時候他有寫要跟本會要找中央農業主管機關一起來做我們等好久了這個躺在那邊十幾年了到現在都還沒有出來那我不曉得說部長您的態度如何"},{"start":343.942,"end":344.062,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":374.062,"end":402.641,"text":"因為總統說要讓所有的轉型正義要走入各部會去落實這個就是一個具體的轉型正義對不對我希望回到剛才的那個圖片我們的山林我們的田野它是生物多樣性的它是美麗多元的我們台灣配得這樣的風景好不好那我相信農業部部長您絕對有這樣的能力帶領大家可以嗎"},{"start":403.543,"end":405.092,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1536,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（14時2分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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是這是預算案嘛 對不對 是那113年的預算案是多少113年的預算是兩千 我看 一千九百五十億"},{"start":69.686,"end":84.79,"text":"對1951億是預算案還是預算多少法定預算是2089億2089億對所以現在是要跟委會報告是說因為114年還沒有審查嘛對不對是所以他是預算案那有可能審查之後會"},{"start":85.69,"end":86.951,"text":"對農業有所支持的新增項目那基本上是應該增加"},{"start":114.532,"end":140.877,"text":"那至於應該有的到一個期限裡面需要去減少的或是不再編入的這我沒有意見但整體來講農委會變成農業部之後就是一個部就是一個大部就是台灣宣示對台灣的農業對台灣的農民的支持在組織架構的提升裡面應該從預算面會看到有更多支持農業跟支持農民的相關的積極作為才對嘛所以照理講你14年不應該低於13啊"},{"start":143.062,"end":155.405,"text":"對,我們整個都不應該低於啊我們公屋有增加83億左右,公屋有增加的部分那因為基金到時候是看各基金的用途嘛所以剛才講的就是說114年大概2034億因為時間有限啦,我沒有辦法跟部長詢問細節嘛不然我就隨便叫一個署起來問嘛你114年對照1134是怎樣的預算知道嗎?署長知道嗎?"},{"start":168.806,"end":177.654,"text":"那個公共預算多大概7億就是增加那個我現在講總統統就好了你農糧署114年度的總預算是多少錢?多少經費?總預算齁你自己的數啊多少你不知道你有吃辣啦好那113的預算案是多少?"},{"start":191.328,"end":217.655,"text":"你還沒有當署長你不清楚你馬上對照一下好不好如果你減少的減少什麼部分給委員會相關的資料給我們做參考嘛好不好我為什麼要提到這個事情啦我還特別強調變成農業部之後那整個格局對農業對農民的照顧絕對要跟以前不一樣嘛部長還沒有回答到1喔甚至還1我都還沒有問啦我是希望你們細看一下做相關的一些盤查跟做比對啦齁那第二件事情"},{"start":218.175,"end":247.241,"text":"我可以特別跟部長來討論這個天然災害救助項目的金額這個部分我之前也有新聞到貴部去然後私底下我也跟部長反映有很多的項目基本上是有蠻大的一些落差啦齁豬瓦會災害的豬瓦每一公頃4千齁蜂箱全會一個補助650蚂蜜一千塊鹵羊一隻兩千啦齁然後白色的肉雞一隻二十這個多久沒有調整了這是一件事情"},{"start":247.694,"end":273.22,"text":"那第二張我們這幾年來有很多次的去做相關的這些因應跟調整有確實都有這是我就不再贅述齁從106民進黨在住執政的時候106 109 110 11一直到112都有做相關調整而且我們的天然災救助辦法裡面有特別強調每年檢討一次的那你的每年檢討一次是年中年初年尾也不曉得然後再來你再看這一張"},{"start":274.909,"end":283.26,"text":"分野化溫格在106年的時候補助的額度是11萬5千,113年的時候5月20條了,變成11萬8千給三千塊一公頃。部長再看一下布拉伊為什麼20萬馬上跳到42萬一公頃。"},{"start":293.826,"end":301.951,"text":"上面 等一下 上面的10班 9班 麻煙就對了 3百萬一公頃 來到1百分之3的時候是變40幾萬 變4萬 麻煙就對了3百萬 變40萬 變4萬 現在慢慢不下去 20萬一公頃 變做40幾萬 為什麼分月月11萬5 讓你們調料變11萬8"},{"start":316.496,"end":324.778,"text":"有符合農民的整個漁民的整個這樣的成本然後配合這整個物價的這樣的評估去做相關調整嗎"},{"start":327.55,"end":351.251,"text":"我跟委員報告就是針對現在目前的不管是農林漁畜的這些產品我已經要求他們在11月底之前要重新去做檢討包括成本的調查因為你成本如果沒有調查在紙上作業用這樣處理就有可能發生到委員剛才提到的有一些條都非常大有一些東西幾乎沒什麼條所以我希望他們是根據真正的生產成本"},{"start":351.411,"end":351.932,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":366.168,"end":381.998,"text":"對,項目很多,我只是用幾項給部長做參考嘛,對不對?啊這照理講,怎麼會有double的這樣一個成長?啊怎麼會有不到1%的成長?部長你再看這一個,農作物的育苗作業啦齁,全島2500,然後全島變3000,這是106年對照103年。屋頂摧毀,一坪550,現在變成增加50塊,600。"},{"start":390.505,"end":409.225,"text":"這個合乎現狀嗎?還有很多時間的關係我們也不好一一細究請部長是不是要求重新盤整重新比照重新看現在的狀態應該如何補助才讓農民的損失真的是政府的德政可以減少他們這樣的一個受損"},{"start":410.026,"end":413.008,"text":"最後我再請教部長一些事情謝謝主席剛剛有委員特別提到灌區內跟灌區外我請教一下全國80萬公頃的"},{"start":436.425,"end":436.665,"text":"我們增加多少預算"},{"start":473.956,"end":488.648,"text":"我要提醒部長喔這個如果完全都沒有增加你們是交代不過去這個完全不增加然後我們未來你要去推國土計畫你就沒有辦法推阿"},{"start":489.858,"end":490.679,"text":"部長你會不會越來越辛苦"},{"start":506.494,"end":534.046,"text":"農我再度提醒了好不好這個預算真的不能減行政院有問題你要讓我們知道我們要來處理我跟委員報告就是在新增的農水路的部分大概光整個的資產防洪跟農水路的部分大概就增加了50億跟50億大概有100億的額度那裡面因為有灌區內有灌區外還有一些那個那個籌劃區裡面的東西那我想我會謝謝委員的提醒我會針對後面的該要去"},{"start":534.606,"end":559.627,"text":"執行的這經費到位以後還有實際執事的一個進度好 最後那個農機展農機展從蘇志文前縣長整個催生一直到現在辦了18年農糧署扮演什麼角色這個可不可以請農長署署長來說明我們給予那個活動的補助好 那所有我們叫做指導單位對不對對"},{"start":562.102,"end":574.662,"text":"去年辦個農機展燒了20多台汽車今年會不會再發生指導單位要不要見到監督職者整個場地要不要去事先了解"},{"start":576.884,"end":595.183,"text":"我跟委員報告就是過往也許我們在補助的時候只是提供經費而已但是實際上的規劃沒有參與協助但是我覺得這是也是不對的啦就是說當你經費下去就是希望活動做得好那相對的場地的規劃也要有一個完善的一個特別是在安全上面的一個規劃"},{"start":596.064,"end":624.516,"text":"那之前我想有很多地方辦大型活動都會去參與規劃那我這邊後續有邀請農政署其實在規劃的時候不能只出錢啊也要實際的去協助對部長我只是提醒任何一筆從農業部補助到地方政府的只要錢下去有補助的農業部都有一定的責任是都有一定的責任是那個環部看板後面絕對會寫指導單位寫補助單位但是有的很多補助下去也都沒有看到你們任何單位是是要卸責嗎"},{"start":626.486,"end":630.217,"text":"請部長詳查 太多的案例謝謝 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1462,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時51分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長辛苦，可能未來會越辛苦。我請教一下，農業部114年度的總預算案，總total含所有基金是多少經費？113年的總預算案又是多少？112年又是多少？請部長簡單說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我們114年編列的是1,692億。"],["劉委員建國：含所有基金嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：基金是747億。"],["劉委員建國：所以加起來是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：但是有一部分是撥補的部分，所以加起來可動支的大概是2,034億。"],["劉委員建國：2,034億，這是預算案對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：那113年的預算案是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：113年的預算是1,951億。"],["劉委員建國：是預算案？還是預算？"],["陳部長駿季：法定預算是2,089億。"],["劉委員建國：2,089億？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以你現在要跟委員會報告，是因為114年還沒有審查對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以它是預算案，那有可能審查之後會低於113年度，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：有可能。"],["劉委員建國：為什麼有可能？"],["陳部長駿季：因為計畫有一部分是新增的，有一部分是……"],["劉委員建國：既然是新增，就是會增加預算出來，為什麼還會低於113年度？"],["陳部長駿季：但是相對有些預算是期程結束了，結束以後有一些新增的。"],["劉委員建國：我要表達的是，你當了這個部長之後，照理講應該會有一些對農民有幫助，對農業有所支持的新增項目。基本上是應該增加，至於應該到一個期限需要減少或是不再編列的這我沒有意見。但整體來講，農委會變成農業部之後就是一個大部，宣示對臺灣的農業、對臺灣農民的支持，在組織架構的提升裡面，應該從預算面會看到有更多支持農業，跟支持農民的相關的積極作為才對嘛！所以照理講，114年不應該低於113啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["劉委員建國：不管怎麼樣都不應該低於啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們公務有增加83億左右，因為基金到時候是看各基金的用途，所以剛才講的就是114年大概2,034億……"],["劉委員建國：因為時間有限，我沒有辦法跟部長詢問細節，不然我就隨便叫一個署起來問。農糧署114年對照113年是怎樣的預算知道嗎？署長知道嗎？"],["姚署長士源：公務預算大概多7億，就是增加……"],["劉委員建國：我現在講總total就好了，農糧署114年度的總預算是多少經費？你自己的署有多少錢你不知道？"],["姚署長士源：80億左右。"],["劉委員建國：好，那113年的預算案是多少，你還沒有當署長你不清楚，你馬上對照一下好不好？如果減少了，減少什麼部分，給委員會相關的資料，給我們做參考好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["劉委員建國：我為什麼要提到這個事情，我還特別強調，變成農業部之後，整個格局，對農業、對農民的照顧，絕對要跟以前不一樣嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長還沒有回答到112年，甚至於111年我都還沒有問啦！我希望你們細看一下，做相關的一些盤查跟比對。第二件事情，我要特別跟部長討論天然災害救助項目的金額，這個部分我之前也有行文到貴部去，私底下我也跟部長反映，有很多的項目，基本上是有滿大的一些落差。幼稻米每公頃救助金額4,000元、蜂箱全毀一個補助650元、肉豬1,000元、乳羊一隻2,000元，然後白色的肉雞一隻20元，這個多久沒有調整了？這是一件事情。","第二，我們這幾年來，有很多次去做相關的因應跟調整，有！確實都有，我就不再贅述。從106年民進黨再度執政之後，106、109、110、111，一直到112都有做相關調整。而且我們的天然災害救助辦法裡有特別強調每年檢討一次，那你的每年檢討一次是年中？年初？年尾？也不曉得。","再來你再看這一張，文蛤在106年的時候，補助的額度是11萬5,000，113年5月20日的時候變成11萬8,000，一公頃增加3,000元。部長再看一下午仔魚，為什麼20萬馬上跳到一公頃42萬？上面的石斑一公頃38萬，113年變42萬，增加4萬；鰻魚從36萬變40萬，增加4萬。為什麼午仔魚一公頃20萬一下變成42萬？為什麼文蛤11萬5,000讓你們調到變11萬8,000？有符合漁民的成本，然後配合整個物價的評估去做相關調整嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，針對現在不管是農林漁畜的這些產品，我已經要求他們在11月底之前要重新去做檢討，包括成本的調查。因為成本如果沒有調查，在紙上作業這樣處理，就有可能發生委員剛才提到的，有一些調得非常大，有些東西幾乎沒什麼調。所以我希望他們是根據真正的生產成本，11月底之前我們會去調整，明年1月就會重新公告新的制度。以後我們會把這個法納入，每年的1月間會公告年度天然災害救助的標準。"],["劉委員建國：對，項目很多，我只是用幾項給部長做參考。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：照理講怎麼會有double這樣的成長？怎麼會有不到1%的成長？部長再看這一個，農作物的育苗作業，全倒2,500變3,000，這是106年對照113年，屋頂吹毀一坪550，現在增加50塊，變成600。這個合乎現狀嗎？還有很多，時間的關係，我沒辦法一一細究，請部長是不是要求重新盤整、重新比照，重新看現在的狀態，應該如何補助農民的損失，真的是政府的德政，可以減少他們的受損。"],["陳部長駿季：我想很明確的謝謝委員的關心，我在昨天的擴大專案會議裡面就有提出來，因為昨天也在檢討那些多年期品項的週期。我也特別要求他們11月底之前，就要把新的成本調查出來，然後去設計一個新的救助金額。"],["劉委員建國：好，最後我再請教部長一件事情，謝謝主席。剛剛有委員特別提到灌區內跟灌區外，我請教一下，全國80萬公頃的自然人農地，40%是灌區內，以前就是17個農田水利會，現在的農田水利署。我們在做整個更新、建置、修補、疏浚，現在另外的40萬公頃，有了農田水利署之後，我們就必須概括承受對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：一樣是農民，不分灌區內跟灌區外嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，我們今年114年，針對灌區外，對照113年，我們增加多少預算？"],["陳部長駿季：我們可不可以後會再提供給委員？"],["劉委員建國：我要提醒部長，這個如果完全都沒有增加，你們是交代不過去。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：這個完全不增加，未來你要去推國土計畫，你就沒有辦法推。"],["陳部長駿季：知道。"],["劉委員建國：這個如果到現在，農委會變成農業部的時候，我們還對這一塊沒有辦法用有效快速的經費，到位的去協助相關的基礎建設去做建置。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長你會不會越來越辛苦？容我再度提醒，這個預算真的不能減。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["劉委員建國：這個預算真的不能減，行政院有問題，你要讓我們知道，我們要來處理。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，在新增農水路部分，光是治山防洪和農水路大概就分別增加了50億跟50億，大概有100億的額度，裡面因為有灌區內、有灌區外，還有一些重劃區裡面的東西。謝謝委員的提醒，我會針對後面該要去執行的經費到位以後，還有實際實施的進度。"],["劉委員建國：最後就是農機展，從蘇治芬前縣長催生一直到現在，辦了18年，農糧署扮演什麼角色？"],["陳部長駿季：這個可不可以請農糧署署長來說明？"],["姚署長士源：我們給予活動補助。"],["劉委員建國：好，所以叫做指導單位，對不對？"],["姚署長士源：對。"],["劉委員建國：去年辦個農機展燒了二十多台汽車，今年會不會再發生？指導單位要不要盡到監督之責？整個場地要不要去事先了解？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，過往也許我們在補助的時候只是提供經費而已，但是實際上的規劃沒有參與協助，我覺得這也是不對的！經費下去就是希望活動做得好，相對的場地也要有一個完善的規劃，特別是在安全上面的規劃。我想之前很多地方辦大型活動前都會去參與規劃，我這邊後續也會要求農糧署，在規劃的時候不能只出錢，也要實際的去協助。"],["劉委員建國：對，部長，我只是提醒，任何一筆從農業部補助到地方政府的，只要錢下去、有補助的，農業部都有一定的責任。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：都有一定的責任！那個帆布看板後面絕對會寫指導單位、寫補助單位，但是有的很多補助下去也都沒有看到你們任何單位，是要卸責嗎？請部長詳查！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：有太多的案例，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請王育敏、王育敏、王育敏委員不在。","請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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092,"text":"部長那個今年啊今年就是勞發署曾經有有表示過要訂一下移工的懷孕指引這個確實是一件很重要的事情那因為他指引訂出來以後可以彙整懷孕前後的相關權益我不知道"},{"start":59.631,"end":76.173,"text":"現在好像還沒提出耶對他還在草擬中準備年底那麼現在是草案現在有草案了準備年底啊就是這兩個月裡面要訂出來啦現在正在跟社會諮詢溝通中那因為"},{"start":78.395,"end":97.143,"text":"呃...就是在這一個所謂的生育給付這一項上面其他社會面向的團...團體有不同意見啦對有人反對啦對所以這個我們還在勾動部長...部長我...我...我剛剛就...就聽到欸...你們在回...回復...劉建國委員齁就是...欸...欸..."},{"start":100.906,"end":129.849,"text":"銷股票投資也是公會然後呢你做一個指引也不先提出然後也是要先跟社會對話從許民春部長到現在就這6年我覺得勞動部之所以很多政策沒有辦法到位沒有辦法定案就是因為你們"},{"start":135.147,"end":150.26,"text":"扛著社會共識的大旗延誤了很多應該要立即落實的政策勞保年改也是像這個指引問說為什麼還沒有"},{"start":153.39,"end":177.056,"text":"也說是要跟社會大眾溝通那問你說為什麼交勞工投資股票也說是工會你就直接給工會來我不是說尊重工會的意見不對我不是這樣子不要誤解就是說"},{"start":179.704,"end":201.307,"text":"你行政機關必須要自己有自己的...你自己不先拿出來你的政策版本怎麼溝通?懂我意思嗎?哪一個委員有在溝通啊?這個移工懷孕指引就是在溝通中然後遇到問題這樣子"},{"start":203.052,"end":230.447,"text":"遇到...遇到什麼問題?來,你等一下,來好,署長回答一下跟委員報告齁其實這個指引我們在上個會期因為當初委員也關切我們在5月就已經提出一個版本草案那因為這個版本草案因為涉及到很多不同的利害關係團體所以我們正式召開過會議那包含僱主團體、移工團體跟一些社會福利團體等等那還有跨部會,包含衛務部等等"},{"start":231.087,"end":253.075,"text":"那因為在那個會議當中因為對我們這個草案的內容因為事實上我們很希望把移工的各個階段的需求盡量能夠完整的呈現所以很多的意見大概有表達出來所以五月開完會之後我們大概兩個月內再陸續的把各界的意見再做一些盤點七月的時候其實我們有做了第一次的修正"},{"start":253.715,"end":283.013,"text":"那這個修正因為我們在跟各界再請幫忙再做一些檢視那這些草案的內容現在已經在收斂就是說大部分的內容都已經有共識那剩下的就是跟委員報比較就是說爭議性比較大的事實上就是現在就是家事移工他在這個生育的這個給付的一個補助方面大概會比較有不同意見那目前我們大概就是說也把這樣的意見盡量的再做一些統整我們大概目前有個初步的想法"},{"start":283.573,"end":312.632,"text":"就是說對於比較特殊的情況之下因為在生產之後比如說有一些很特殊的情況可能又要有一些新生兒或是說他的身體的狀況需要特別照顧那這個時候我們大概希望能夠有一個社會支持的一些資源能夠挹注來補助那經過地方政府評估之後我們就給予這樣一個我們當然是一定要健全看護移工懷孕期間孕前孕後的休假"},{"start":313.694,"end":316.421,"text":"那這個指引裡面呢就是"},{"start":318.871,"end":343.94,"text":"被照顧者在看護移工休假的時候怎麼獲得照顧這個也是一個重點因為這裡面就是兼顧移工的權益但是還有僱主的權益所以我們這裡面也包含就是說這段期因為空裝級因為沒有照顧的時候我們就是包含現在的喘息跟短照服務喘息呢每年大概只有可以使用"},{"start":344.76,"end":369.23,"text":"我們現在喘息加短照一年52天52次那移工請假的時間是8個星期幾乎就是一整年都會在這個運期裡面被照顧者的喘息機會全部用完所以這個你們假如說真的要"},{"start":370.814,"end":398.219,"text":"要做一個比較完整的質疑有沒有可能跟衛福部討論這一類的事情提高喘息的上限這個我們會來跟衛福部再討論一下我們也希望就是說盡量能夠滿足那大概衛福部這個部分我們再來跟他溝通因為這個才需要討論嘛至於外界的東西"},{"start":400.56,"end":415.615,"text":"我不大相信說不管從老闆年輕改革到任何指引有辦法獲得社會一致的"},{"start":416.926,"end":434.118,"text":"等於說沒有一個政策是凝聚完共識才推出的那就永遠推不出政策懂我的意思嗎我覺得勞動部就是這幾年比較會在這個委員會把跟社會的"},{"start":445.899,"end":472.862,"text":"的溝通當作政策延宕的理由這個我其實是不大能接受或者是應該這麼講就是說最少你們要先有政策出來才有溝通的基礎你什麼都沒有你光是一直說溝通怎麼溝通"},{"start":474.505,"end":474.945,"text":"法定人數不足,請勞動部長解釋"},{"start":500.257,"end":517.06,"text":"這就是我的政策我今天原本倒是沒有我今天在講的是整個勞動部這幾年的情況那你倒是自己想要講年金因為時間的關係我就先跟部長講我個人覺得"},{"start":531.471,"end":549.238,"text":"單純的把勞保年金改革這麼大的一個重大議題以單一的政府撥補試圖延後處理的時機點這個我是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":554.498,"end":579.624,"text":"你了解所以這是不同意見嘛這個我是沒有辦法接受的因為我我不知道為什麼部長可以這麼冠冕堂皇的直接講說你就是撥補也就是說未來你的任期假如是4年"},{"start":581.038,"end":598.689,"text":"那就是中央政府總預算每一年必須要有兩千億、三千億來挹注勞保年金然後其他的什麼都不用做討論部長保證了絕對不會砍年金沒有人要你砍年金啊沒有人要你砍年金啊我甚至於在昨天就講過了"},{"start":609.181,"end":625.717,"text":"我們搞不好必須要連通膨都算進去看現在領兩萬塊以下的已經在貧窮線的勞工的晚年怎麼保障啊沒有人要你看啊可是單純的一句撥補就解決了勞工問題"},{"start":634.451,"end":639.834,"text":"那民進黨才有這間可以撥補那尊軍公教就直接撥補就好啦那就不敢...委員軍公教過去20年已經公保補5400億了軍公教的...軍公教的雇主是國家軍公教的雇主是國家"},{"start":661.686,"end":689.391,"text":"我一直都在不要不要還沒有含那個退伏喔軍工叫退伏喔不是啦現在就是說勞工部長你如果是你如果是這樣的態度就表示你不是很想要跟委員會的委員好好的討論跟相處啦我說我說我們假如說撥補可以解決一切那軍工叫"},{"start":691.011,"end":710.648,"text":"當初就不用改當然部長不從部長就覺得說軍公教跟勞工是有區別的當然有區別最大的區別就是軍公教的僱主是國家那應該改的時候不是應該改嗎不是縱使第二政權"},{"start":719.605,"end":727.147,"text":"也要推動年金改革嗎那為什麼改了軍公教以後勞保就一直停著然後部長講的就是好像撥補是很應該撥補是最不得已的做法部長"},{"start":742.057,"end":767.258,"text":"我只是要說明我上任以後我對很多政策我都是直接面對的我也不會去拿所謂的社會共識來拖延不是!你直接面對"},{"start":768.871,"end":778.898,"text":"然後撥補,撥補就是從許民春開始就一直撥補了啊就是一個不負責任的執政黨在做的事情啊把問題想要留到等到民進黨不執政了再來做處理啊要不然要怎麼說?不是這樣嗎?委員您這樣講真的也是也是有道理啊"},{"start":798.618,"end":814.404,"text":"不是嗎?對於等到,等到,欸,萬人之間,啊,啊,燙,燙手衫你再丟出去啊。不是,我要明白的告訴你,就是說,這些都是評估過的啦。你除非砍年金,不然我們沒有其他的處理方法。"},{"start":815.37,"end":841.825,"text":"喔就是這樣除了砍年金跟撥補就是這兩種方法另外一種叫延退那延退我們還得看社會有沒有辦法這麼進行對阿所以這個就是說我們的工具很有限啦這個委員這個其實整個是...柏丁你如果是態度這樣啦你的態度是這樣子就難怪勞動部呢就是在在行政體系裡面"},{"start":843.486,"end":847.768,"text":"幾乎是不存在的存在者因為你們前後任的部長的態度大概都是一樣的不想去面對問題"},{"start":865.011,"end":875.519,"text":"我知道你的想法啦你就是覺得唯一的改革方法就是減少年金所以誰主張要改革誰就是罪人啊你現在講的意思是這樣子啊不是委員這個因為就是廣大勞工朋友的社會安全線的問題不是所以才需要你勞動部啊阿沒有勒"},{"start":892.588,"end":916.69,"text":"阿沒有勞動部存在幹嘛我的意思是說我們砍了年金下去我們還要去動用社會救助那這個我早就講過了您也不能接受嘛對不對現在是是在說你最少要有方案出來你不能就是就是覺得覺得波普我說真的啦我看了波普這麼多年我就覺得"},{"start":918.513,"end":928.719,"text":"民進黨就是在等等到自己沒有執政了再換別人來處理啦我們沒有這麼消極啦如果這麼消極就不撥補了啦對不對"},{"start":934.707,"end":945.534,"text":"所以部長的意思是 多補是一件很積極的作業是啊 而且越補 我們的金額在增加耶6年以來從200、221一直增加到1300億這就是我們執政積極的表現啊這是為了...喔 是啊 是啊你要不要把這句話提到讓"},{"start":956.977,"end":984.292,"text":"看能不能形成社會共識委員我想這個應該社會的大部分是會認為這是一個負責任的執政黨他才願意這麼做負責任的執政黨我也說過我已經提案委員我已經提案要求政府要負最終的支付責任這個是政府的決心可是我也支持可是票票改革是另外"},{"start":985.032,"end":990.627,"text":"是兩個層面的問題我也支持我也支持以前馬政府甚至都沒有撥補啊"},{"start":992.386,"end":1012.096,"text":"所以他們失去政權啊對所以我們負責任而且我們擔起來不過普通人如果是這樣的話我們就下一次再談啦因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為"},{"start":1021.341,"end":1021.561,"text":"好啦,謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1032,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時6分）謝謝主席，請一下何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，今年勞發署曾經表示要訂一下移工的懷孕指引，這確實是一件很重要的事情，因為指引訂出來以後可以彙整懷孕前後的相關權益，但現在好像還沒提出耶？"],["何部長佩珊：對，它還在草擬中，準備年底提出，現在有草案了。"],["楊委員曜：準備年底提出啊？"],["何部長佩珊：是，就是這兩個月裡面要訂出來，現在正在跟社會諮詢溝通中，因為在所謂生育給付這一項上面，其他社會面向的團體有不同意見，有人反對，所以我們還在溝通。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我剛剛聽到你們在回復劉建國委員，教股票投資也是工會提出的，然後你做一個指引也不先提出，然後也是要先跟社會對話。從許銘春部長到現在，就這六年，我覺得勞動部之所以很多政策沒有辦法到位、沒有辦法定案，就是因為你們扛著社會共識的大旗，延誤了很多應該要立即落實的政策，勞保年改也是，問你現在這個指引為什麼還沒有，也說要跟社會大眾溝通；問你為什麼教勞工投資股票，也說是工會提出的，你們就直接讓工會來做，我不是說尊重工會的意見不對，我不是這樣的意思，不要誤解，而是你行政機關必須要有自己的政策版本，你自己不先拿出來你的政策版本，請問要怎麼溝通？懂我意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，有在溝通啊！這個移工懷孕指引就是在溝通中，然後遇到問題，目前情況是這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：遇到什麼問題？"],["何部長佩珊：請署長說明。"],["楊委員曜：署長回答也可以。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實這個指引，我們在上個會期，因為當初委員也有關切，我們在5月就已經提出一個版本草案，因為這個版本草案涉及到很多不同的利害關係團體，所以我們正式召開過會議，包含雇主團體、移工團體跟一些社會福利團體等等，還有跨部會，包含衛福部等等，在那個會議當中，對於我們這個草案的內容，事實上我們很希望把移工各個階段的需求，能夠儘量完整的呈現，所以很多的意見大概都有表達出來，所以5月開完會之後，我們大概在兩個月內陸續地就各界的意見再做一些盤點；7月的時候，其實我們有做了第一次的修正，這個修正我們有請各界幫忙再做一些檢視，所以這些草案的內容現在已經在收斂，就是大部分的內容都已經有共識，剩下的就是爭議性比較大的。事實上，現在就是家事移工在生育給付補助方面，大概比較會有不同意見，而我們也把這樣的意見，儘量的再做一些統整。","目前我們大概有個初步的想法，就是對於一些比較特殊的情況，在生產之後比如說有一些很特殊的情況，不僅有新生兒要照顧，或是他的身體狀況需要特別照顧，這個時候我們大概希望能夠有一個社會支持的資源來挹注、來補助，所以在經過地方政府評估之後，我們就給予這樣的一個補助。"],["楊委員曜：我們當然一定要健全看護移工懷孕期間、孕前孕後的休假，在這個指引裡面，被照顧者在看護移工休假的時候，怎麼獲得照顧，這個也是一個重點。"],["蔡署長孟良：是，跟委員報告，因為這裡面就是兼顧移工的權益還有雇主的權益，所以這裡面也包含了，因為這段期間是空窗期，在沒有辦法照顧的時候，我們就是包含現在的喘息跟短照服務……"],["楊委員曜：喘息服務每年大概只有使用52天……"],["蔡署長孟良：我們現在喘息加短照一年52天、52次。"],["楊委員曜：對，移工請假的時間是8個星期，幾乎就是一整年都會在這個孕期裡面，被照顧者的喘息機會全部用完，假如你們真的要做一個比較完整的指引，有沒有可能跟衛福部討論這一類的事情，提高喘息服務的上限？有沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個我們會跟衛福部再討論一下，我們也希望儘量能夠滿足，就這個部分，我們再跟衛福部溝通。"],["楊委員曜：這個才需要討論嘛，我不大相信的是，不管從勞保年金改革到任何的指引，有辦法獲得社會一致的共識，等於說沒有一個政策是凝聚完共識才推出的，那就永遠都推不出政策了，懂我的意思嗎？我覺得勞動部這幾年比較會在這個委員會，把跟社會的溝通當作政策延宕的理由，這個我其實是不大能接受的，或者是應該這麼講，最少你們要先有政策出來，才會有溝通的基礎，但你什麼都沒有，光是一直說溝通，請問要怎麼溝通？部長你想要說就給你說啊！"],["何部長佩珊：如果是勞保年改，我的政策已經很明確，就是撥補。"],["楊委員曜：勞保年改你已經很明確，這是什麼意思？"],["何部長佩珊：我的政策很明確了。"],["楊委員曜：就是撥補？"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！我的政策就是我們撥補就是改革，我已經講過很多遍了，而且我不砍年金，這就是我的政策。"],["楊委員曜：我今天在講的是整個勞動部這幾年的情況，你倒是自己想要講年金。好，因為時間的關係，我就先跟部長講，我個人覺得單純的把勞保年金改革這麼重大的議題，以單一的政府撥補，試圖延後處理的時機點，這個我是沒有辦法接受的。"],["何部長佩珊：了解，所以這就是不同意見，對不對？"],["楊委員曜：這個我是沒有辦法接受的，因為我不知道為什麼部長可以這麼冠冕堂皇直接說你就是撥補，也就是說，未來你的任期假如是4年，那就是中央政府總預算每一年必須要有2,000億、3,000億來挹注勞保年金，然後其他的什麼都不用做討論，部長保證了，絕對不會砍年金，沒有人要你砍年金啊！我甚至在昨天就講過了，我們搞不好連通膨也都必須算進去，現在領兩萬塊以下，已經在貧窮線的勞工的晚年要怎麼保障啊？沒有人要你砍啊！可是單純一句撥補就解決了勞工問題，民進黨如果這麼會執政，到時用撥補來處理，那時候軍公教直接撥補就好了，哪會搞到……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，軍公教過去20年公保已經補5,400億了，一直都在補、一直都在補。"],["楊委員曜：軍公教的雇主是國家啊！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，一直都在補，還沒有含軍公教退撫喔！勞工……"],["楊委員曜：部長如果是用這樣的態度，就表示你不是很想要跟委員會的委員好好的討論跟相處，我就說了，假如撥補可以解決一切，那軍公教當初就不用改啊！當然部長就覺得軍公教跟勞工是有區別的，當然有區別啊，最大的區別就是軍公教的雇主是國家，而且應該改的時候，不就是應該改嗎？不是縱使丟了政權，也要推動年金改革嗎？為什麼改了軍公教以後勞保就一直停著，然後部長講的好像撥補是很應該的，撥補是最不得已的作法啊！部長，我也不知道，今天本來是在討論移工懷孕的問題，結果你提年金改革要做什麼！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我只是要說明我上任以後對於很多政策，我都是直接面對的，我也不會去拿所謂的社會共識來拖延。"],["楊委員曜：不是，你說會直接面對，然後撥補，而撥補從許銘春開始就一直撥補了啊！就是一個不負責任的執政黨在做的事情啊！想把問題留到等民進黨不執政了再來做處理啊！要不然要怎麼說？不是這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員您這樣講真的也是……"],["楊委員曜：也是很有道理啊！不是嗎？就是等到換人執政，把燙手山芋再丟出去啊！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我要明白的告訴你，這些都是評估過的，除非砍年金，不然我們沒有其他的處理方法，就是這樣。就是砍年金跟撥補這兩種方法，另外一種叫延退，那延退我們還得看社會有沒有辦法這麼進行。所以就是我們的工具很有限，委員，這個其實……"],["楊委員曜：部長，如果你的態度是這樣子，就難怪勞動部在行政體系裡面幾乎是不存在的存在者，因為你們前後任部長的態度大概都是一樣，不想去面對問題。我知道你的想法，你覺得唯一的改革方法就是減少年金，所以誰主張要改革誰就是罪人啦！你現在講的意思是這樣子啦！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個因為是廣大勞工朋友的社會安全線問題。"],["楊委員曜：不是，所以才需要你勞動部啊！不然咧？不然勞動部存在幹嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：我的意思是，我們砍了年金下去之後，我們還要動用社會救助。"],["楊委員曜：這個我早就講過了。"],["何部長佩珊：您也不能接受嘛？"],["楊委員曜：現在就是至少你要有方案出來，你不能就是用撥補，我說真的啦，我看了撥補這麼多年，我覺得民進黨就是在等，等到自己不執政了再換別人來處理。"],["何部長佩珊：我們沒有這麼消極啦，如果這麼消極就不撥補了啦！對不對。"],["楊委員曜：所以部長的意思是撥補是一件很積極的作為？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！而且我們的金額在增加耶，6年以來從220億一直增加到1,300億，這就是我們執政積極的表現。"],["楊委員曜：喔，是啊？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["楊委員曜：你要不要把這句話提出來，看能不能形成社會共識？"],["何部長佩珊：我想社會大眾會認為這是一個負責任的執政黨才願意這麼做。"],["楊委員曜：負責任的執政黨，我也說過我已經提案，我已經提案要求政府要負最終的支付責任，這個是政府的決心。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我也支持。"],["楊委員曜：可是跟要不要改革是另外兩個層面的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：我也支持。委員，以前馬政府甚至都沒有撥補，是不是？我們要這樣看。"],["楊委員曜：所以他們失去政權了。"],["何部長佩珊：對，所以我們負責任，而且我們擔起來。"],["楊委員曜：部長如果是這樣的態度，我們就下一次再談。"],["何部長佩珊：沒關係，我隨時跟您討論。"],["楊委員曜：因為召委已經站起來很多次了。"],["主席：我要一視同仁要，不然到時候有人說楊曜委員講那麼久，我都沒有站起來。"],["楊委員曜：沒關係，反正還有很多機會。不過我最後一句話，我並不覺得撥補是有擔當的執政黨應該要拿出來對社會大眾做宣傳的一個政績。"],["何部長佩珊：好啦，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員發言。","接下請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065f5e47bd1836a084dbc7d127954dabfa186d136366eabd3fbe040c9255cff6fc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:30:49 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少人我們今年已經到80萬人了80萬嗎對這是我們自己的統計這是什麼"},{"start":28.158,"end":43.726,"text":"這是我們自己的同情產業移工是55萬社福移工是24萬所以總計79萬3544人到7月了所以將近80萬那想請教部長目前為止私聯移工的人數是多少"},{"start":44.721,"end":70.82,"text":"那8萬8千多啦那私聯移工佔移工的總數是11%它相較於110年7月私聯總數的52,632人就增幅高達了66%那也是因為當時面對所謂的居高不下的這個私聯移工數所以內政部移民署在"},{"start":72.481,"end":87.359,"text":"2023年2月到6月辦理了《擴大預期停居留外來人口自行到案專案》這個專案有多少失聯移工到案?雖然是移民署,但是跟你們還是有點關係啦"},{"start":90.546,"end":119.247,"text":"容我再確認一下好嗎?沒關係,不考你一萬四千多位失聯移工到案可是我的疑問的問題是專案結束其實發現統計失聯移工總數是不減反增反而比專案前還多了兩千雖然有一萬四千名失聯移工到案但是比專案前還多了兩千個失聯移工有說到案的人還要再加個兩千"},{"start":120.458,"end":149.481,"text":"怎麼會發生這種情形?您覺得呢?因為我以為您的意思就是說這可能是因為我們再來引進的移工是增加的持續在增加實際上逃逸移工的比例不斷上升到目前為止請問勞動部拿出什麼樣的方法來解決逃逸移工的問題然後有什麼樣的一個做法有辦法去那個減少這樣的一個暴增的趨勢呢?"},{"start":150.882,"end":178.589,"text":"跟委員報告就是您講的那一個所謂大幅增加是相較於疫情前對那麼你如果從疫情後到現在其實是下降的就是112年您看失聯率大概3.1萬人發生率是4%已經較111年度4.1萬人發生率5.96%有明顯下降那麼我們今年一到八月大概是2%其實你在看移工的問題"},{"start":180.189,"end":198.917,"text":"當然你講說所謂的成長率是一個數字指標嘛對不對那如果成長率那個增幅有下降當然是一個好的正向指標但是實際上人數不斷的擴張這也是另外一個指標嘛所以我希望我們的勞動部還是要再多加的努力一下可以嗎"},{"start":199.577,"end":222.243,"text":"是當然我們會跟移民署一起來努力下一個部分我們知道移工對臺灣經濟有很大的幫助所以可以有效解決我們臺灣的缺工問題可是現在每10個移工有一位失聯他對治安、經濟跟社會的衝擊就會產生很多一些連動的影響檢證署在去年就示警近年移工出現"},{"start":223.563,"end":237.393,"text":"幫派化的趨勢成為治安的隱患但是前任的許明春部長說移工的犯罪率只有國人的一半好像要大家放心我覺得請問部長你覺得這個你能放心嗎"},{"start":238.895,"end":260.974,"text":"對,是有移工的所謂的犯罪的問題我覺得警政署的提醒值得重視確實移工在某些他的確實有犯罪化、集團化的情況而且裡面也不乏可能有幫派確實是有的那這部分我們也是一直建議移民署應該要加強才查處而且絕不容許"},{"start":261.394,"end":276.741,"text":"所以基本上我覺得勞動部跟移民署甚至警政單位實際上都要有一個密切的一個網狀的聯絡我們最近的副署長還是從移民署敦請過來的我覺得至少這個部分的話可以來去用專業來去補強那最後實際上"},{"start":282.904,"end":294.636,"text":"我要跟部長講為什麼延續這個犯罪的問題因為其實最主要是移工的犯罪人數在10年間是增加了3.5倍2013年是1174件到2022年就變4160件那犯罪數不斷上升當然對治安會產生很多影響"},{"start":304.406,"end":312.347,"text":"拜託我們的勞動部、移民署、警政單位這部分可能也要保障我們國人的安全是,謝謝委員提醒"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":847,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時30分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：請問部長，根據內政部移民署統計，到今年7月，我國的外籍移工有多少人？"],["何部長佩珊：我們今年已經到80萬人了。"],["羅委員智強：80萬嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對，這是我們自己的統計。"],["羅委員智強：產業移工是55萬，社福移工是24萬，所以到7月總計79萬3,544人，將近80萬。請教部長，目前為止失聯移工的人數是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：大概8萬8,000左右。"],["羅委員智強：對，八萬八千多，失聯移工占移工的總數是11%，相較於110年7月失聯總數的5萬2,632人，增幅高達66%。也是因為當時面對所謂居高不下的失聯移工數，所以內政部移民署在2023年2月到6月，辦理了「擴大逾期停（居）留外來人口自行到案專案」，這個專案有多少失聯移工到案？雖然是移民署，但是跟你們還是有點關係啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是，容我再確認一下好嗎？再提供給委員。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，這個不考你，有一萬四千多位失聯移工到案。可是我有疑問的問題是，專案結束後，發現統計失聯移工的總數不減反增，反而比專案前還多了2,000，雖然有1萬4,000名失聯移工到案，但是比專案前還多了2,000個失聯移工。我說到案的人還要再加個2,000，怎麼會發生這種情形，您覺得呢？"],["何部長佩珊：這可能是因為我們再引進的移工是增加的，持續在增加。"],["羅委員智強：實際上逃逸移工的比例不斷上升，到目前為止，請問勞動部有拿出什麼方法解決逃逸移工的問題？然後有什麼樣的作法，有辦法去減少這樣暴增的趨勢？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，您講的所謂大幅增加，是相較於疫情前。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["何部長佩珊：如果從疫情後到現在其實是下降的，就是112年您看失聯率大概3.1萬人，發生率是4%，已經較111年度4.1萬人，發生率5.96%，有明顯下降，那麼我們今年1到8月大概是2%、1.6萬……"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長講，其實你在看移工的問題，當然你說所謂的成長率是一個數字指標，如果成長率增幅有下降，當然是一個好的正向指標。但是實際上人數不斷的擴張，這也是另外一個指標嘛！所以我希望我們的勞動部，還是要再多加的努力一下可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然，我們會跟移民署一起來努力。"],["羅委員智強：下一個部分，我們知道移工對臺灣經濟有很大的幫助，所以可以有效解決臺灣的缺工問題，可是現在每10個移工就有一位失聯，對治安、經濟跟社會的衝擊，就會產生一些連動的影響。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["羅委員智強：警政署在去年就示警，近年移工出現幫派化的趨勢，成為治安的隱患，但是前任的許銘春部長說，移工的犯罪率只有國人的一半，好像要大家放心。請問部長，你覺得這個你能放心嗎？對失聯移工所謂的犯罪問題。"],["何部長佩珊：我覺得警政署的提醒值得重視，某些移工確實有犯罪化、集團化的情況，而且裡面也不乏可能有幫派，確實是有的。這部分我們也是一直建議移民署，應該要加強查處，而且絕不容許。"],["羅委員智強：所以我覺得勞動部跟移民署，甚至警政單位，事實上都要有一個密切的、網狀的聯絡。"],["何部長佩珊：有，跟委員報告，我們最近的副署長還是從移民署敦請過來的，希望兩邊能夠互相合作。"],["羅委員智強：很好啊！至少這個部分可以用專業去補強。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["羅委員智強：最後我要跟部長講，延續這個犯罪的問題，最主要是因為移工的犯罪人數，在10年間增加了3.5倍。2013年是1,174件，到2022年就變成4,160件，犯罪數不斷上升，當然對治安會產生很多的影響。所以拜託我們的勞動部、移民署還有警政單位，這部分可能也要保障我們國人的安全。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["羅委員智強：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅智強委員的發言。","現在處理臨時提案，總共一案，請宣讀。","案由：","有鑑於當代社會生活、工作壓力大，生養下一代的成本逐漸提高，為了讓受僱者能夠在家庭與經濟責任之間取得平衡，使其兼顧工作與養育子女，提供足夠的育嬰假或親職假，已經是世界趨勢。惟我國現行育嬰假制度過於僵化，根據《性別平等工作法》規定，受僱者申請期間已不少於六個月為原則，最少也不得低於三十日，屢遭詬病面臨育兒突發狀況時，無法使用育嬰假，不符實際需求。過去勞動部就曾推動「彈性育嬰留停薪」試辦計畫，雇主可讓勞工以5天或7天請育嬰留停，也可單日申請，然計畫僅停留於呼籲雇主自願參加，廣大基層勞工多無從受益。台灣少子化問題已被視為國安危機，勞動部等相關單位更應採取積極行動，打造友善的生育環境與支持生養的措施。爰要求勞動部儘速針對《性別平等工作法》及相關法規增訂較為彈性之「親職假」議題進行研擬，並於一個月內向社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　廖偉翔"],["主席：請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，沒有意見。"],["主席：沒有意見，好，沒有意見我們就照案通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155744","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155744","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065a3bc1cf2c0c048ccbc7d127954dabfa186d136366eabd3fb87561c4690c68a315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:20:22 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謝謝有請何部長好 有請何部長是 您好部長好 部長那個大家在關心這個薪資的問題那本席也關心很多時間那很確實來說的話我們實質薪資的成長在這幾年如果有成長的話都相當微幅然後甚至有馬拉斯的現象那因為過往這都幾乎在主席處在做統計"},{"start":35.686,"end":61.786,"text":"我是不曉得我們勞動部裡頭有沒有特別因為每次只要談到薪資的問題彷彿我們就只有基本工資沒有其他的一個政策上的工具我是覺得這些滿可惜那你如果說就國籍的比較來看的話這幾年來看的話你看那個受僱人員的這個GDP的占比日本的部分是高達五成以上"},{"start":63.027,"end":81.593,"text":"大概日本、美國、韓國都是5乘2台灣的部分只有4乘4那營業占比的部分占據的占比台灣的部分是34.4然後日本才13.1那簡單的講從這個數字來看的話那個經濟學所說的下滲的效果在台灣來說其實是顯見而言是相對非常的少"},{"start":90.936,"end":117.973,"text":"那在這個部分其實最近我們的立法院預算中心也做過一些評估報告那本席也要求審計部做出一些專案的報告那我一度也是要求行政院是不是有一些比較具體的一個跨部會的這個平台的可能性但是我發現行政院的這個原來有一個跨部會的平台就是改善所得分配專案小組"},{"start":119.594,"end":140.719,"text":"但是後來就不了了之就回歸各部會就回歸到各部會的本位就不會有辭職的效果那如果基本工資說沒有效果還是有效果它有主體墊高的效果但主體墊高的直接受惠對象就是固定的我們看到的整個大概是20%的勞工"},{"start":143.018,"end":157.137,"text":"那基本工資的這幾年的漲幅到11年為止大概三成二但是相關的比較直接有推動到的大概是中位數的部分中位數的部分大概只有一半"},{"start":158.438,"end":171.828,"text":"我個人來看的話就實質上中位數以下的勞工大概平均算起來大概有350萬位居於整個中小企業或壯年世代大專學歷這個版本的綜合體"},{"start":174.088,"end":195.715,"text":"這些人其實相對而言那個調薪的部分都是高薪者越調越多那低薪的部分有主體店高那中間中部位的部分很明顯就沒有這個部分其實早期我在來到那個衛環委員會的時候也跟之前的部長聊過但是呢老實說都不了了之沒有一個具體的想法"},{"start":196.095,"end":204.046,"text":"我覺得非常可惜然後呢我是覺得 何部長上來是不是有一些比較突破性的作為我們來探討看看"},{"start":205.029,"end":226.097,"text":"那像最近我就有請那個特別請那個審計部做一個報告出來審計部的報告當中有提到一個部分就是說那個勞動部每年大概花了大概上百億的資訊大概用了就業安定基金的錢花上百億但是就業安定基金的這個內容"},{"start":228.318,"end":252.195,"text":"聽說是愈來愈多元化蔡署長上來愈來愈多元化多元化到讓人家覺得還有噴刃啊其他有的沒有好像社區大學一樣也就是說簡單的講那就業的觀念性不高啦就業觀念性不高好這是第一個就業觀念性不高第二個呢還有一個產業新建兵計畫授訓完之後大概去"},{"start":253.456,"end":273.787,"text":"就業的勞工大概八成的員工與學員薪資未滿三萬低於整個產業平均薪資的三萬二也就是說你透過這些當中你也沒有解決這個低薪的問題甚至還有包括42%留無從事部分工時"},{"start":277.49,"end":291.708,"text":"那這個薪資我看這是比固定的月薪的基本工資甚至還低啊所以說我們每年花這麼多那個部長我們這個每年的就業安定基金你知道大概我們的小金庫大概有多少錢?"},{"start":292.925,"end":301.111,"text":"以照這種移工或企業需要的那個extra等等開放的這個產業別越來越多情況底下遲早的但是這個遲早的部分算是一個"},{"start":316.661,"end":332.698,"text":"整個是體制外然後由企業來繳納的資金的金額啦老師說有一點老師就已經越來越特定對象或特定人士或特定單位在申請而沒有達到實質的效果"},{"start":333.539,"end":355.173,"text":"的那種現象出現就審計部這份報告裡頭就寫得很清楚嘛那你要不要去思考看看要如何去善用這一筆就業安定基金就業安定基金如何善用就是說有沒有可能性說譬如講你鼓勵一些企業因為台灣大部分都中小企業嘛"},{"start":356.374,"end":376.193,"text":"因為我們具體的調薪的幅度其實相對而言因為大概是三種一種就是最重要是企業的加薪那一種是員工的本身然後另外就是集體的溢價能力但是溢價能力其實集體溢價能力其實最近也沒有成長所以靠的是企業的加薪剩下這一步而已"},{"start":377.443,"end":393.824,"text":"所以我們有可能企業家然後勞動部跟著做一比一的方式的處理這樣比較直接了當委員我們來思考看看好不好對啊 比較直接了當嘛你每年的金額算非常的多現在已經高達"},{"start":395.302,"end":408.113,"text":"290億你與其花那麼多的行政流程行政成本花那麼多資訊資訊花了上百億上百億出來的效果還是老實講還是不好每年這樣花每年這樣花你一年有290億"},{"start":411.779,"end":427.473,"text":"10年就2900億了那可以解決很多低薪的一個問題啦你真的不用花那麼多時間就用現今的思考你就是有這筆錢可以充分運用嘛那事實上老實講那課程已經開到已經有一些"},{"start":428.854,"end":443.061,"text":"可是跟委員報告因為這裡面補助工會去辦訓是一個蠻大的項目喔那工會他們對這個需求都蠻大的我知道啦那個部分就是很像是在幫王厚偉做工會關係一樣"},{"start":445.602,"end":468.678,"text":"還是有功能的 還是有功能的那你要去分說 那你至少去限縮沒有就業關聯性的一些項目我們來檢討好嗎我們來檢討那你騰出一些時間 我說你就用了執訊的部分才百億你還有190億還將近200億的扣打委員的建議很好啦我也不是說全部叫你都投入這邊把其他人砍掉"},{"start":469.598,"end":484.03,"text":"這我知道這個委員會怎麼走得出去,對不對?是,謝謝委員您的建議我們來思考這個真的要思考一下,第二個是價別雖然我們在不同的法案當中有幫員工爭取價別不如講增加那個育嬰價、家庭照顧價,對不對?"},{"start":486.272,"end":505.134,"text":"交易國家運營價增加了之後其實多半是誰在申請這些良法美意大部分都公部門一般私部門不太敢去申請申請回來搞不好就沒辦法了到現在為止都是這樣子主席讓我多講一下因為剛剛有陳委員說我可以多講一會"},{"start":506.708,"end":528.849,"text":"就是說呢就是說呢這個情況底下他這看得到吃不到但是傳統的勞工的部分的價別從1984年勞基法實施以來我們的婚價、我們的商價、我們的這個產價、我們的流產價都沒差都沒差以前呢又跟軍公教比較起來又有一定的落差又一段落差部長部長"},{"start":531.171,"end":532.633,"text":"最近有一個公務人員請假規則已經預告要修正所以說你是不是這個部分呢"},{"start":547.753,"end":570.529,"text":"對勞工釋出一些善意就是說傳統勞工的朋友只有這個部分可以請假你譬如講一個商家來說的話那個為什麼有的是那個公務人員的部分15天但我們是只有8天減半同樣是父母為什麼這沒道理嘛而且這是偶發性又不是經常性的這調整有什麼關係呢"},{"start":573.35,"end":600.221,"text":"而且未必遇得到因為高齡化社會未必遇得到所以這只是請假規則而已嘛我請部長你上來我來思考來思考一下來調整一下然後我上述了剛剛那兩個提議你一段時間給我一下好不好我們不用拖太久一個月應該可以啦好不好具體來改善薪資低薪的問題還有包括員工的休息的問題好不好謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":812,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時20分）主席謝謝，有請何部長。"],["主席：好，有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。大家在關心薪資的問題，本席的關心很多時間，確實來說，我們實質薪資的成長，在這幾年如果有成長的話都相當微幅，甚至有minus的現象。因為過往幾乎都是主計處在做統計，我是不曉得我們勞動部裡頭有沒有特別啦！因為每次只要談到薪資的問題，彷彿我們就只有基本工資，沒有其他政策上的工具，我是覺得這也蠻可惜。","就國籍比較來看的話，這幾年你看受僱人員的GDP占比，日本的部分是高達五成以上，大概日本、美國、韓國都是五成二，臺灣的部分只有四成四，盈餘占比的部分，占GDP的占比，臺灣是34.4，日本才13.1。簡單的講，從這個數字來看的話，經濟學所說的下滲效果，在臺灣其實是顯而易見，相對非常的少。這個部分其實最近我們立法院預算中心也做過一些評估報告，本席也要求審計部做出一些專案報告，我也一度要求行政院是不是有一些比較具體的，一個跨部會平臺的可能性。但是我發現，行政院原來有一個跨部會的平臺，就是改善所得分配專案小組，但是後來就不了了之，就回歸各部會的本位，不會有實質的效果。","說基本工資沒有效果，其實還是有效果，他有築底墊高的效果，當然築底墊高的直接受惠對象就是固定的，大概是20%的勞工。基本工資這幾年的漲幅，到111年維持大概三成二，但是相關的比較，直接有推動到的，大概是中位數的部分，中位數的部分大概只有一半。我個人來看的話，實質上中位數以下的勞工，平均算起來大概有350萬，位居整個中小企業或壯年世代、大專學歷這些綜合體。這些人其實相對而言，調薪的部分，高薪者越調越多，低薪的部分有築底墊高，中間的部分很明顯就沒有。這個部分其實早期我來到衛環委員會的時候，也跟之前的部長聊過，但是老實說都不了了之，沒有一個具體的想法，我覺得非常可惜。我是覺得何部長上來，是不是有一些比較突破性的作為？我們來探討看看。","最近我就有特別請審計部做一個報告，審計部的報告當中有提到，勞動部每年大概花了上百億的職訓，用就業安定基金的錢花了上百億。但是就業安定基金的內容，聽說是越來越多元化，多元化到讓人家覺得還有烹飪跟其他有的沒的，好像社區大學一樣，簡單的講就是就業的關聯性不高，這是第一個。","第二個，還有一個產業新尖兵計畫，受訓完之後就業的勞工，大概八成的員工與學員，薪資未滿3萬，低於整個產業平均薪資的3萬2。也就是說，透過這些你也沒有解決低薪的問題，甚至還有包括42%從事部分工時，薪資比固定月薪的基本工資甚至還低。所以說我們每年花這麼多，每年的就業安定基金，部長知道我們的小金庫目前大概有多少錢？"],["何部長佩珊：那不是小金庫……"],["郭委員國文：那是小金庫啦！講白一點就是了。"],["何部長佩珊：今年編290億，歲入跟……"],["郭委員國文：290億對不對？我看快破300了，依照移工或企業需要的extra等等，開放的產業別越來越多的情況底下，遲早的啦！但是這個遲早的部分，算是整個體制外，然後由企業來繳納資金的金額，老實講已經越來越特定對象、特定人士或特定單位在申請，而沒有達到實質的效果。這種現象在審計部這份報告裡就寫得很清楚，你要不要去思考看看，如何去善用這筆就業安定基金？譬如你鼓勵一些企業，因為臺灣大部分都是中小企業。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["郭委員國文：我們具體的調薪幅度，其實相對而言大概就三種，一種就是最重要的企業加薪，一種是員工本身，然後另外一個是集體的議價能力。但其實集體議價能力最近也沒有成長，所以靠的是企業的加薪，剩下這一步而已。所以有沒有可能企業加，然後勞動部也跟著做一比一的方式來處理？這樣比較直接了當。"],["何部長佩珊：了解，委員，我們來思考看看好不好？"],["郭委員國文：對啊！這比較直接了當嘛！你每年的金額算非常多，現在已經高達290億，與其花那麼多行政流程、行政成本，花那麼多職訓，職訓花了上百億，上百億出來的效果，老實講還是不好。每年這樣花，你一年有290億，10年就2,900億了，那可以解決很多低薪的問題啊！你真的不用花那麼多時間，就用現金的思考，你就是有這筆錢可以充分運用，老實講那些課程有些已經開到太routine，有些浮濫了。"],["何部長佩珊：可是跟委員報告，因為這裡面補助工會去辦訓是一個滿大的項目，工會他們對這個需求都蠻大的。"],["郭委員國文：我知道啦！那個部分就是培養，很像是在幫王厚偉做工會關係一樣，我跟你講白一點就是這樣子嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：還是有功能的，萬一這個沒有了，問題也很大。"],["郭委員國文：那你要去算，至少你要去限縮，不要有那種沒有就業關聯性的一些項目嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：我們來檢討好嗎？"],["郭委員國文：你騰出一些時間，我說你用職訓的部分才百億，你還有190億，將近200億的額度嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：委員的建議很好啦！本來……"],["郭委員國文：我也不是全部叫你都投入這邊，把其他人砍掉，不然這個委員會我怎麼走得出去，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員，你的建議我們來思考。"],["郭委員國文：這個真的要思考一下。第二個是假別，雖然我們在不同的法案中有幫員工爭取假別，譬如增加育嬰假、家庭照顧假，對不對？家庭照顧假、育嬰假增加了之後，多半是誰在申請這些良法美意？大部分都是公部門，一般私部門不太敢去申請，申請回來搞不好就沒頭路了，到現在為止都這樣子。主席讓我多講一下，因為剛剛陳瑩委員說我可以多講一會兒。就是說這個情況底下，他看得到吃不到，但是傳統勞工的假別，從1984年勞基法實施以來，我們的婚假、喪假、產假、流產假都沒增加，而且跟軍公教比較起來又有一定的落差。部長，是不是又有一段落差？你先不用聽黃司長的啦！黃司長一定很保守，他一定叫你不要改了。我跟你講，最近有一個公務人員請假規則已經預告要修正，所以說是不是這個部分，我們對勞工釋出一些善意？就是說傳統的勞工朋友，只有這個部分可以請假，譬如以喪假來說，為什麼公務人員的部分有15天，但我們只有8天，減半？同樣是父母，為什麼？這沒道理嘛！而且這是偶發性，又不是經常性的，這個調整有什麼關係呢？而且未必遇得到，因為高齡化社會未必遇得到，所以這只是請假規則而已嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：好，我來思考。"],["郭委員國文：請部長來思考一下、調整一下，然後我剛剛上述的那兩個提議，你一段時間後給我，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來跟委員回報。"],["郭委員國文：不用拖太久啦！一個月應該可以啦！好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：可以。"],["郭委員國文：具體來改善薪資低薪的問題，還有包括員工休息的問題，好不好？謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝主席。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝郭國文委員。因為時間的關係，所以不好意思，請質詢的委員能夠控制一下時間。羅智強委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案，中午不休息，繼續質詢到結束為止，如果中午的話，工作人員可以把便當發下去。好，請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30652bf781e6d411654d60efc051a48f2135162f1d6a5445a0222534413e15b9eb305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"13:44:29 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講出這樣的議題只是要讓就是部長對 部長了解說說農民真的很辛苦"},{"start":270.151,"end":281.902,"text":"我了解我可能有一個是不利耕種的地我什麼都不用做我一公頃就可以補助40萬辛苦工作的農民我們現在只不過要提高公糧收購價格卻不行所以說我只是要拋出這樣的議題讓農業部來去正視這個問題那當然啊我在這邊也是提出一個建議啦讓部長"},{"start":288.288,"end":313.019,"text":"思考看看是否可行就是說我們也考量到產業的一個長久發展跟農業的預算有限那是不是可以因為你這邊有提到這個123的政策大概3年內會提高到股市場價格3元你預估是這樣子的一個成效那我們假設這個成效是真的能夠達到的話那是不是有可能我們公糧收購先提高2元"},{"start":313.979,"end":330.528,"text":"然後給你們3年的時間去完成這個123的政策那如果可以提高3元剛好就是5元是不是有可能來做這樣子的研究很實際的說明就是現在的5元跟我們現在的其他的政策是會互相"},{"start":331.647,"end":331.927,"text":"對123這樣的一個政策"},{"start":357.624,"end":385.607,"text":"對於農民來說不能說一年拖過一年說今年達不到明年再做我覺得可以這樣有一個折衝的方式也許部理可以研究看看我覺得部長一定跟我們一樣都是很希望照顧農民為農民來去爭取最大的權益那是不是所有可能能夠照顧農民的方案我們是不是都不要放棄能夠用這樣的一個方式那因為既然這是立法院的決議我們也希望能夠這個農業部能夠尊重我們這個立法委員的這樣子的一個決議那用什麼樣的方式來去達到"},{"start":386.288,"end":386.308,"text":"農業部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1433,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（13時44分）謝謝主席，我們請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好，辛苦了。今天我是針對農業部對立法院決議公糧收購提高價格的這個報告，要來替農民請命，因為我目前聽下來，農業部並沒有要編列這個預算的計畫是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，關於公糧部分，我的意思不是以後都不調整公糧，但是以現在最好的情況，因為我在調整公糧的時候必須衡量現在的政策，會不會造成現在政策的衝突。所以我們發現，我們現在的四選三、大區輪作，如果搭配1集、2轉、3加3，會更支持我們的產地價格。如果直接貿然再提高的話會有矛盾的現象，所以今年度我們先不編，但是後續我們會針對推動的成效再來檢討。"],["許委員宇甄：所以您的意思是，你也沒有反對公糧收購，但是今年暫時不編，要看滾動的計畫。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["許委員宇甄：不過以這個部分來說，其實農民會覺得很受傷啦！因為他們覺得公糧收購對他們是最直接的幫助，尤其是最近因為國土計畫法，我們針對一些國土計畫法裡面農1的怎麼補償，或怎麼樣的一個配套措施都還沒有出來，所以對農民來說，他們覺得他們的權益也有可能受損。結果現在用公糧收購，農業部這邊不願意提高價格，然後國土計畫法這邊也沒有相關的補償措施，所以農民會覺得受到雙重傷害。","我想農業部是農民的守護者，我相信你們應該是會站在農民的立場，去考量所有的事情。尤其是今年，我想明年我們的公務人員的薪資也要調漲，第二年，還有勞工的基本工資跟時薪也都提高。既然政府說希望要全民來共享經濟建設的成果，那這個部分好像農民都沒有被照顧到，也會讓農民覺得是二等公民。"],["陳部長駿季：不會的，我想政府特別是農業部，照顧農民是我們的責任，也是我們的使命。剛才講就是公糧提高的話，事實上只有部分農民是受益的，特別是剛才東部的地區，你如果去東部的話，大部分的農民都反對。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，既然是有部分的農民受益，代表這些部分農民就是需要幫助，所以我們才有這個公糧收購的政策。尤其是我看到你們報告裡面寫到，如果提高公糧價格的話，就會造成成本的提高，報告裡面有這樣寫。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，因為面積的提高……"],["許委員宇甄：還有就是提高生產成本，應該是在你們第6頁的第4點有提到這點。不過現在跟我們的理解其實相反，我們為什麼會提要提高公糧收購的價格？就是因為過去13年沒有調漲，他們的各項成本還是一直在提高，我們才會提出要提高公糧收購的價格，所以這樣的說法其實是矛盾的，而且讓農民沒辦法接受。既然部長覺得提高公糧收購的價格現在沒辦法執行，那是不是有可能，比如我們現在是不是可以釋出一些農地來種電，讓我們的農民因為種電，每公頃大概可以收租40萬，不但可以照顧到農民，也可以讓我們經濟部的郭部長不用跑到菲律賓去種電，這樣是不是都可以照顧到呢？請問部長可不可以這樣做？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們現在開放的是漁電共生，農電共生的部分我們並沒有開放，最主要是農電共生本身，因為露天作物需要的陽光強度都必須要去考慮。以現在來講，我們也啟動了所有的試驗單位，針對農電共生之下的一些作物的影響。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我拋出這樣的議題，只是要讓部長瞭解農民真的很辛苦。"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["許委員宇甄：我可能有一個不利耕種的地，我什麼都不用做，一公頃就可以補助40萬；辛苦工作的農民，我們現在只不過是要提高公糧收購的價格卻不行。我只是要拋出這樣的議題，讓農業部來正視這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["許委員宇甄：我在這邊也提出一個建議，讓部長思考看看是否可行。就是我們也考量到產業的長久發展，跟農業的預算有限，因為你這邊有提到123的政策，大概3年內會提高稻穀市場價格3元，你預估是這樣子的一個成效。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["許委員宇甄：那我們假設，這個成效是真的能夠達到的話，那是不是有可能我們公糧收購先提高2元，然後給你們3年的時間去完成這個123的政策。如果可以提高3元，剛好就是5元，是不是有可能來做這樣子的研究？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員很實際的說明，就是現在的5元，跟我們現在的其他政策是會互相競合跟衝突的，所以我才會希望委員同意，先讓我們把這個方案推下去，看我們產地的情形。不然我們一方面提高公糧會增加誘因，一方面我們又希望稻農轉出去，這兩個政策基本上是有點矛盾的。所以我們希望今年推了以後，如果明年達不到，我們再來處理。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，123這樣的一個政策，我想對農民來說，不能一年拖過一年，說今年達不到明年再做，我覺得可以有一個折衷的方式，也許部裡可以研究看看。我覺得部長一定跟我們一樣都是很希望照顧農民，為農民爭取最大的權益，是不是所有可能照顧農民的方案，我們都不要放棄，能夠用這樣的方式。因為既然這是立法院的決議，我們也希望農業部能夠尊重我們立法委員的決議，看用什麼樣的方式，來達到讓農民感受到農業部的照顧，也感受到全民對農民的照顧，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的建議，我想我們一定會去做一個最好的配套措施，讓農民的收益最穩定，而且能夠持續，這部分我想我們會再去精進。"],["許委員宇甄：但是公糧收購的部分，剛剛我提了一個建議，也希望你們能夠研究一下，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會來看看後續要怎麼再去做一個更精進的設計跟做法。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝部長。"],["主席：請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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部長我們今天討論的是調整公糧的這個議題那在談論這個議題之前本席還是繼續延續像我們之前的這個山頭颱風造成農損的問題那這次山頭颱風其實它不僅僅是在南韋地區造成的這個傷害"},{"start":37.493,"end":61.948,"text":"因為它連日的豪大雨對我們池上關山地區的稻米造成極大傷害我們依據關山政工所進行農損調查的部分看到我們部分農田它剛剛結碎稻米剛結碎就發生這個稻埔泡水的情況可能會影響部分二期稻作的收成那出戶稻埔的這個田區至少將近在兩成左右那依據我們農業部這個稻米保險的規範那邊均"},{"start":63.889,"end":71.212,"text":"若產量減損在單一鄉鎮有兩成以上的話就會啟動我們的保險機制那但是經過縣政府初步的統計可能我們離這個理賠標準還有一點點的差距那受災災民他可能沒有辦法申請理賠"},{"start":80.405,"end":104.164,"text":"部長,中農一年的課真兩期,關鍵時尚是臺東有機稻作的種植區,它的工作成本本來就遠遠高於西部慣行農法的區域,這對農民稻農的損害極大。部長您是農業的大家長,也請您能苦農民所苦,放寬規範,讓我們稻農可以獲得利培金來度過這次難關。"},{"start":107.486,"end":109.187,"text":"謝謝部長正面的回應喔,部長"},{"start":138.842,"end":160.402,"text":"我們這是客廳吃飯本來閒話就乾口我想這次會提到公糧調漲這件事情其實也是希望讓農民能夠增加他的收益我想這件事情大家都是支持因為他這麼辛苦我們可以給他照顧我相信大家都支持那當然在過程裡面也聽到部長跟其他委員提到有許多問題會衍生那這邊本期要跟部長來討論就是說"},{"start":161.983,"end":167.348,"text":"我們台東這次公糧的問題,可能跟西部土地的問題有點不一樣,為什麼我這樣說,臺東花東地區是臺灣最大的有機有膳到座耕作區,對,因為我們那裡,我們其實追求的是品質提升的數量增加嘛,所以"},{"start":181.241,"end":198.659,"text":"臺灣的米好價是因為它品質好相對它的成本也比較高那我們的米廠其實都是以質計價然後嚴格分級一斤米、二斤米、三斤米這樣所以價格比較高所以高公糧的價值比較高就是低於我們西部的這些稻農"},{"start":199.58,"end":201.761,"text":"我給委員報告就是說其實臺東就是一個很好的例子就是說因為他大部分都不繳公糧"},{"start":228.275,"end":228.295,"text":"黃建賓議員"},{"start":251.989,"end":253.81,"text":"謝謝部長的正面回應。接下來我要講第二個台中的農產。第一個,就要比以往第一就是奢侈。"},{"start":276.923,"end":281.144,"text":"臺東現在目前臺灣的私家出口還是主要以中國大陸為主那我們其實也提過是不是要分散投資不要把雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡面開發新的市場提升本身的"},{"start":301.131,"end":301.151,"text":"黃建賓議員"},{"start":322.481,"end":349.106,"text":"那我們今後如何讓我們加工去化過多的產量,讓達到我們鮮果限流市場的功效,農業部必須來思考這個問題。因為當我們的鮮果的數量如果在限流情況之下,我們可以有效的維持啊。那未來如果國外的市場受到一些什麼政治因素,種種因素有影響的時候,我們不至於導致我們鮮果過量,然後價格崩盤嘛,對吧?"},{"start":350.046,"end":379.134,"text":"瞭解我跟委員報告齁就是鳳梨世家是一個比較特殊的這些品項那第一個就是它生性的部分在其他的國家過往都沒有銷售的紀錄那我們在檢疫的部分我們必須因為鮮果的部分要經過市場進入的檢疫的談判但是加工的部分冷凍的部分就可以所以過去幾年特別是這一兩年之內我們針對冷凍加工包括現在我們也有一些我們的加工廠變成果泥吶就是"},{"start":379.894,"end":398.689,"text":"時間的關係,會後可以把你們相關的措施跟本辦報告最後我再借用一點點時間,剛剛許副委員提到的關於殷樂歡的問題,其實台東也有除此之外,台東還有面臨另外一個問題,就是施走韓修木他比殷樂歡更加的頑強"},{"start":400.39,"end":402.791,"text":"這部分也請部長這邊跟部裡面來討論跟本席辦公室這邊來報告"},{"start":423.26,"end":423.28,"text":"黃建賓議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1400,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（13時37分）我們有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好。部長，我們今天討論的是調漲公糧這個議題，在談論這個議題之前，本席還是繼續延續我們之前山陀兒颱風造成農損的問題，這一次山陀兒颱風不僅僅是在南迴地區造成傷害，因為連日的豪大雨，對我們池上、關山地區的稻米也造成極大的傷害。依據關山鎮公所進行的農損調查，看到我們部分農田剛結穗的稻米就發生倒伏泡水的情況，可能會影響部分二期稻作的收成，初估倒伏的田區至少將近二成左右。","依據農業部這個稻米保險的規範，如果產量減損在單一鄉鎮有二成以上就會啟動保險機制，我們的理賠是1公頃1萬8,000元，對不對？但是經過縣政府初步的統計，可能我們離理賠的標準還有一點點差距，受災災民可能沒有辦法申請理賠。部長，我們稻農一年就靠這兩期，關山、池上是臺東有機稻作的種植區，它的耕作成本本來就遠遠高於西部慣行農法的區域，這個對稻農的損害極大，部長，您是農業的大家長，也請你能夠苦農民所苦，然後放寬規範，讓我們稻農可以獲得理賠金來度過這一次的難關。"],["陳部長駿季：因為水稻的部分是用農業保險的方式去處理，所以它如果受到損害，最後在產量的反映就會表現出來，那樣子的話，理賠就會處理，它不需要逐筆去勘。"],["黃委員建賓：是，所以部長，未來是不是可以來協助這個部分？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我想我們農業保險一定會更基準地去計算它的產量，所以不會說必須每一塊田都要去勘。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長正面的回應。","部長，「作穡人」靠天吃飯，本來生活就艱苦，這一次會提到公糧調漲這件事情，其實也是希望讓農民能夠增加收益，我想這件事情大家都是支持，因為他們這麼辛苦，我們可以多給予照顧，我相信大家都支持啦！當然在過程裡面有聽到部長跟其他委員提到，有許多的問題會延伸，在這邊本席要跟部長來討論的是，我們臺東在這次公糧的問題可能跟西部遇到的問題稍微有點不一樣，為什麼我會這麼說？花東地區是臺灣最大的有機友善稻作耕作區……"],["陳部長駿季：對，大部分都沒有繳公糧。"],["黃委員建賓：對，因為我們那裡其實追求的是品質的提升，不是數量增加，所以大家說臺東的米好吃，是因為它的品質好，相對它的成本也比較高。我們的米廠其實都是以質計價，然後嚴格分級為一級米、二級米、三級米，所以價錢比較高，公糧就繳的比較少一點，就是低於我們西部的這些稻農。因為這樣，其實它的成本是相對高，未來我們如果面對公糧調漲之後會增加的成本支出，包括我們的有機肥、農具、地租，種種這些問題，部內有沒有進行針對臺東有機友善作物的價格影響，做一個研議的政策？"],["陳部長駿季：其實臺東就是一個很好的例子，因為他大部分都不繳公糧，但是我們怎麼樣讓這些有機友善的稻米能夠繼續精進，就是牽涉到後面的輔導措施。"],["黃委員建賓：對，輔導措施要出來啦！"],["陳部長駿季：輔導措施一定要到位，這個部分我想我們會去研議。"],["黃委員建賓：因為我們都是希望站在農民這邊，但是我們的情況有稍許不同，這部分要請部裡面多花心思想一下未來怎麼補助。"],["陳部長駿季：東部地區最主要不只是不繳公糧，而是用有機友善的方式去打品牌，後續包括行銷的部分，我們會給予特別的一些協助，還有需要的這些集團的契作農機具，我想我們也會給予比較高的補助比例。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長的正面回應。接下來我要講第二個臺東的農產，第一個除了米以外，第二個就是釋迦，臺東有名的就是釋迦，全世界90%的釋迦在臺灣，全臺灣90%的釋迦都在臺東。臺東因為這個綠金養活很多家庭，臺東縣政府其實也花很多的經費在做行銷這一塊，也花很多心思。不過目前臺灣的釋迦出口，主要還是以中國大陸為主，其實我們也提過是不是要分散投資，不要把雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡面。開發新的市場，提升本身的品質跟加工，這一塊未來都是要因應整個兩岸政策不穩定的影響，造成果農影響生計的問題，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員建賓：這個我們之前討論過，我們政府過去這幾年，花了大概將近5億在釋迦的加工上，但目前還沒有看到比較有效的成果。我們今後如何讓加工去化過多的產量，達到我們鮮果現有市場的功效，農業部必須來思考這個問題。因為當我們鮮果的數量，如果在現有的情況之下，釋迦的價格能有效的維持，未來如果國外的市場受到一些什麼政治因素、種種因素影響的時候，我們不至於導致我們鮮果過量，然後價格崩盤嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我跟委員報告，鳳梨釋迦是一個比較特殊的品項，第一個就是生鮮的部分，在其他國家過往都沒有銷售的紀錄。我們在檢疫的部分，因為鮮果的部分要經過市場進入檢疫的談判，但是加工和冷凍的部分就可以。所以過去幾年，特別是在一、兩年之內，我們針對冷凍加工，包括現在我們也有一些加工廠變成果泥，那就是……"],["黃委員建賓：部長，時間的關係，是不是會後可以把你們相關的措施跟本辦公室報告？"],["陳部長駿季：好，會後我們再把資料提供給委員。"],["黃委員建賓：最後我再借用一點點時間，剛才徐富癸委員提到關於銀合歡的問題，其實臺東也有，除此之外，臺東還面臨另外一個問題，就是刺軸含羞木。他比銀合歡更加頑強，他的侵略性跟他的生命之強悍，很難去根除。這個部分也希望農業部能夠來整合，包括國產署、林務局或水保局，看怎麼樣來解決這個外來物種侵襲的問題。這部分也請部長跟部裡面討論，再跟本席辦公室報告，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想會後我們會請林保署臺東分署來協助。"],["黃委員建賓：是，共同來解決這個問題啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，一起來處理。"],["黃委員建賓：感謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會請東部分署先去瞭解。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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大家都關心這一題了我們農業天然災害救助辦法同一個產業就是一年可能申請一次但是我們每年颱風災害都是好幾次"},{"start":39.504,"end":45.406,"text":"所以剛才也聽很多的委員去詢問所以我們的部長也有說要修正要研議所以現在我們的災害已經達到6億了新台幣6億目前請問一下我們目前我們的農業人民有多少人"},{"start":62.093,"end":62.493,"text":"請教一下"},{"start":88.752,"end":99.38,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是我們農業天然災害不會因為他的身份跟他的族群而有差別對沒有身份族群但是因為全部都中文但是做農的因為從事農業他絕對不是"},{"start":103.983,"end":122.589,"text":"自己一個人做農業沒有跟其他的左右鄰居做互動所以相對的我們在天然栽培公告的時候不是只公告一小區一定是一個鄉鎮為單位去公告的時候那相對的這些公告的時候其實他如果中一個作物其他的鄰居應該可以做協助啦"},{"start":123.309,"end":126.292,"text":"這個鄰居協助是你說的嗎還是說真的是鄰居都有幫忙協助也知道說怎麼樣去協助嗎我們希望說我們的農業很多都是我們現在高齡的我們的"},{"start":138.883,"end":145.566,"text":"的長輩去做或者是我們的新住民有去做所以這個部分我們是不是我們農業部這邊有個團隊是去協助不只是在網路宣傳或者在我們的公所去宣傳這樣的話達不到這個效果我的意思是這樣子所以要希望有一個團隊但是你講的都是別人幫忙不是你的團隊親自幫忙"},{"start":165.956,"end":183.752,"text":"我想這個在整個的一個天然災害公告了以後所有的啟動都是縣市政府跟他的公所的部分那您剛才所提到的就是說當新住民不認識中文字的時候那相對的希望有一個輔導的一個系統那我個人認為就是"},{"start":184.773,"end":190.397,"text":"這個不是你解決的方式啦因為左右鄰居大家都會有人會協助如果他真的是有需要但是他有需要他也找不到左右鄰居去協助的時候但是你講的是別人協助我要的是你如何去協助"},{"start":213.092,"end":213.132,"text":"麥玉珍"},{"start":238.391,"end":258.508,"text":"請你協助我們的農民不管是新住民還是我們的農民是不是有這樣的去協助因為那個對象我們不知道他在哪邊所以最好的方法最有效的方法就是第一個就是鄰居來協助第二個就是公所那邊他可以去問公所那公所我相信公所一定會很樂意來協助的"},{"start":260.903,"end":281.8,"text":"我們知道公所會去協助但是說我們這邊完全沒有一套說協助因為政府有這樣的預算但是我們要如何去協助公所他們有沒有主動去協助還是說你就是說我們的鄰居去協助我們公所去協助是你說的算還是說他們真的有這樣做第二個就是說我們的保險我們希望說我們"},{"start":289.566,"end":294.388,"text":"農民也除了申請災害的補助還有我們的保險也要有完善讓大家覺得說這個保險你要去剛才我們的其他委員也有詢問你說要如何去修改對我們農民最有幫助對不對但是連現在你們在推這個保險的時候"},{"start":313.635,"end":317.178,"text":"你們都沒有去說哪一個對農民有幫助嗎?等大家要提出來的時候你們才覺得要去修改連我們農業部這邊都不清楚了你怎麼讓我們這些農民他覺得買這個保險對他有幫助的最清楚的所以我們要的"},{"start":332.93,"end":354.116,"text":"是你一定要去說事先要了解也要知道我們的農民的需求不是透過各個委員來找出你的問題你來去改善這樣子的話就申請補助也申請不到保險也不完整這樣對我們的農民的保障在哪裡這個就是你的責任希望"},{"start":354.696,"end":358.639,"text":"我跟委員報告一個禮拜可能可不可以大概一個月因為我們的農業保險是要去做整體的檢討我不會去要強調說要把17%拉的多高我希望每一張保單"},{"start":378.576,"end":388.045,"text":"重新檢討以後會讓更多的農民來保這才是我們的目的而不是純粹只是追求那個覆蓋率的部分因為覆蓋率對農民沒有意義所以這個部分可能一個禮拜沒有幫助對保險就是要有幫助才要去保"},{"start":395.031,"end":396.292,"text":"我很早就要求他們重新去檢討因為他有太多需要去做檢討的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1346,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（13時23分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。大家都關心這一題啦！根據農業天然災害救助辦法，同一個產季一年只能申請一次，但是每年的颱風災害都是好幾次，所以剛才也聽到很多委員在詢問，部長也有說要修正、要研議。現在我們的災害損失已經達到新臺幣6億了，請問一下，目前的農業人民有多少人可以受益？還有，我們新住民在農業這邊，做農業的很多，他們看不懂中文，所以這個部分有很多人沒辦法去申請，也不知道要去申請，在農業部這邊有沒有一個團隊去幫助農民申請災害補助？請教一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個，我們農業天然災害不會因為他的身分跟他的族群而有差別。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，沒有身分、族群……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有族群的差別，但是如果說……"],["麥委員玉珍：因為全部都中文，但是做農的新住民很多。"],["陳部長駿季：因為從事農業，他絕對不是自己一個人做農業，沒有跟其他的左右鄰居做互動，所以我們在天然災害公告的時候，不是只公告一小區，一定是一個鄉鎮為單位去公告，那相對的，在公告的時候，他如果種一個作物，其他的鄰居應該可以做協助，協助他到公所去申請。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個鄰居協助是你說的，還是鄰居真的都有幫忙協助，也知道怎麼樣去協助？現在的農業很多都是高齡的長輩去做，或者是我們新住民去做，所以這個部分是不是我們農業部這邊有個團隊去協助？不只是在網路宣傳，或者在公所去宣傳，這樣達不到效果啦！我的意思是這樣，所以希望有一個團隊，但是你講的都是別人幫忙，不是你的團隊親自幫忙。"],["陳部長駿季：在整個天然災害公告了以後，所有的啟動都是縣市政府跟它的公所的部分，至於您剛才所提到的，當新住民不認識中文字的時候，相對的希望有一個輔導的系統，我個人是認為如果他很需要的話，其他的左右鄰居幫忙其實是最快的，因為他填東西不是只有一個文件，只是拿一個身分證……"],["麥委員玉珍：這個不是你解決的方式啦！因為左右鄰居大家都會協助，如果他真的有需要，但是他找不到左右鄰居可以協助的時候呢？你講的是別人協助，我要的是你如何去協助才能真正地幫助到我們的農民。我舉個例子，因為我有收到新住民的陳情，在南投的姊妹去做這樣的災害申請，但是因為他們不懂中文，不知道怎麼填寫，填寫後收到公文也看不懂，有沒有補助他完全不知道，也沒有收到錢，所以我才要請你協助農民，不管是新住民還是我們的農民，是不是有這樣去協助？"],["陳部長駿季：因為那個對象我們不知道他在哪邊，所以最好的方法、最有效的方法，第一個就是鄰居來協助，第二個就是公所那邊，他可以去問公所，我相信公所一定會很樂意來協助，不然我們農業部我沒……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們知道公所會去協助，但是農業部這邊完全沒有一套協助，因為政府有這樣子的預算……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，在分工是這樣子的分工。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們要如何去協助？公所他們有沒有主動去協助？你說鄰居去協助、公所去協助，是你說了算，還是他們真的有這樣做？","第二個是農業保險，我們希望農民除了申請災害補助，農業保險也要完善，剛才其他委員也有詢問你，你說要如何去修改對農民最有幫助，對不對？但是現在你們在推這個保險的時候，你們都沒有去說哪一個對農民有幫助，等大家提出來的時候，你們才覺得要去修改，連農業部這邊都不清楚了，你怎麼讓這些農民清楚地知道他買這個保險對他是有幫助的？所以我們要的是，你一定要事先去瞭解農民的需求，不是透過各個委員來找出你的問題，然後你再去改善，這樣子的話，他申請補助也申請不到，保險也不完整，這樣對我們農民的保障在哪裡？這個就是你的責任，希望農業部在1週內給我完善的策略，包括如何讓我們的農民更有保障，保險的部分也是，以上報告，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，可不可以1個月？因為我們的農業保險是要去做整體的檢討，我不會去強調說要把17%拉得多高，我希望每一張保單重新檢討以後會讓更多的農民來保，這才是我們的目的，而不是純粹只是追求覆蓋率，因為覆蓋率對我來講沒有意義。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯，我們也是這樣要求的，就是對農民有幫助。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個部分可能1個禮拜沒有辦法做到，因為後面還要更整體地去說明。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，保險就是要有幫助才要去保，沒有幫助大家就不願意保。"],["陳部長駿季：那個是風險的分擔概念。"],["麥委員玉珍：你提出這樣子的農業保險，推那麼久了還達不到2成，所以你要去檢討如何對農民最有幫助，1個月也沒關係，但是希望你真的是要注重這一塊，因為天然災害對我們農民是最大的傷害。"],["陳部長駿季：我很早就要求他們重新去檢討，因為它有太多需要去做檢討的。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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辛苦了不過剛剛本席聽到你回答幾個委員的一個部分的時候有講到說斑斑有鮮奶這樣的一個政策不是我們農業部說啊"},{"start":37.279,"end":64.636,"text":"我想斑斑有鮮奶這幾個字不是我們對外的一個宣導那我們正式的一個計畫是把我們的國產的這些產銷優質的這些牛奶進到學校那相對的他不只是鮮奶我就好奇啊教育文化委員會教育部部長、次長、農業部次長來立院報告也是斑斑有鮮奶的準備執行"},{"start":66.33,"end":92.536,"text":"這是教育文化委員會那一天交委他的一個這個題目那今天行政院17號今天早上也下令斑斑有些奶改推新措施啊認了政策有瑕疵啊所以與其我們一直在講這個說法這個這個名稱跟我們的計畫內容不一定因為現在全國國人都知道而且是連那個我們教育部或說連行政院也都認為說政策就是這個樣子啊"},{"start":93.737,"end":113.071,"text":"所以我覺得與其說我們還要去爭辯說我們當初沒有講這個事情倒不如說怎麼樣來思考精進這一件事情我非常同意齁就是因為是剛才有委員說我們在推先來我說我強調的是那個先來的字就是說我們當初給學校的時候尊重學校的一個訂購因為一開始會聽到第一個掰掰有先來的時候其實我就擔憂喔"},{"start":118.809,"end":147.228,"text":"學校有偏鄉有山區有海邊有大的學校我的選區裡面光本席的選區就好有大的學校一屆一千多人將近兩千人也有小的學校六個年級加起來18人那這樣子的一個落差你有辦法真的做到斑斑有鮮奶嗎沒有辦法嗎所以說到目前為止我即便我問了教育部部長教育部部長我甚至問他說即便是薄酒乳啦"},{"start":148.325,"end":176.252,"text":"你到今年年底前有沒有辦法他不敢回答我那什麼意思就代表說政策的初衷我們要支持政策的初衷可以給小朋友喝到牛奶喝到鮮奶喝到優質奶本席都同意但是不需要用這樣子來去做轉變然後到最後好像一推二五六教育部不認說這是農業部的事農業部不認說這個跟計畫不相干我想農業部絕對沒有不認好部長所以本席比較那個你班班有牛奶嗎"},{"start":177.452,"end":184.988,"text":"那斑斑有牛奶可能有人講說那羊奶算不算好的牛奶斑斑有優質奶嘛斑斑有好乳嘛"},{"start":186.998,"end":207.405,"text":"什麼時候會有新的措施出來?我想我們分兩個階段第一個階段就是在這一學期本身這個學期還是一樣照走那什麼時候會有新的措施?那新的措施我想一個很重要的原則就是說我們如果推的新的政策絕對不會影響到增加學校的負擔這個是一個非常重要的"},{"start":207.805,"end":209.547,"text":"這個政策主導到底是教育部還是農業部?"},{"start":231.545,"end":259.991,"text":"我想是一起努力的啦一起努力還是會有因為兩個和尚是挑水喝你知道嗎我知道所以不管怎麼樣我的意思是說到底現在這個亂象已經造成了那接下來是由教育部主導找農業部來開會還是農業部主導找教育部來開會我想我剛才說的兩個部會一起合作但是農業部一定會負更大的責任針對整個供應量做有系統的確保這個部分才會接下來就是由"},{"start":260.691,"end":261.572,"text":"本席回到今天的一個題目"},{"start":280.768,"end":308.954,"text":"行政部門應該要尊重立法部門是行政部門應該要去瞭解掌握立法部門到底提出這樣的一個政策有什麼樣的一個前因後果那尤其是我記得上個會期本席是黨團的三長之一我們在朝野協商的時候我也一直說啊我沒有反對你的什麼3加3的這些相關的政策但是重點是農糧收購跟這3加3其實它不衝突啊"},{"start":309.634,"end":331.622,"text":"有一些政策來講我沒有說要你只能選A不能選B只能選B不能選A而是怎麼樣能夠大規模做你一方面你可以精進你一方面你可以改良一方面你可以鼓勵農民朋友他們持續但另外一方面反映物價的一個部分那還有我必須要強調您知道在農糧提高價格收購的這一個提案裡面有哪個黨團反對嗎"},{"start":335.868,"end":363.215,"text":"在組決議的時候沒有沒有黨團反對嘛 對不對那就代表是說這是立法院113席立法委員共同的一個組決議啊我現在聽到有一些執政黨的朋友開始跟你在那邊一搭一唱好像講的好像講的是說欸對不能提高收購那如果說不能提高收購這個組決議的話那7月16號沒有任何人有異議這是在打假球啊"},{"start":365.231,"end":374.241,"text":"委員長你剛剛已經講了嘛7月16號我們上個會期的最後一天所值那個主決議處理的時候我們來看一下會議紀錄主席說報告院會現在國民黨的附帶決議有沒有意義沒有人有意義啊"},{"start":382.867,"end":411.652,"text":"民進黨沒有半個人有異議當天的現況是所有黨團都甲級動員113席立法委員全都坐在座位上民進黨沒有任何人有異議照案通過台灣民眾黨的附帶決議請問院會有無異議沒有異議所以換言之連民進黨的委員他們也不敢反對或者說他們也支持農糧收購要提高價格那現在你會不會覺得有點像被放生的感覺"},{"start":413.429,"end":423.801,"text":"民進黨的委員他那個時候不敢有異議然後現在要嘛就跟你一帶一上要嘛就他乾脆不來也不去支持你現在不編列農糧收購的價格的部分"},{"start":426.002,"end":451.349,"text":"我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情就是我們在考慮公糧提高價格我並沒有說公糧價格以後都不調了只是說不能現在調不能把虧底做給國民黨團民眾黨團絕對不是我從來不會有這種想法我也希望你不要有這種想法我的想法就是說我在這一個政策推動之下會不會造成我們現在原來的政策有所"},{"start":452.469,"end":455.11,"text":"其實抵銷不抵銷這個是政策工具的調整我已經預期你會這樣講了但是我們現在看的是方方面面這也是你是身為一個農業部部長你應該要看到的"},{"start":476.323,"end":476.343,"text":"好"},{"start":505.492,"end":516.154,"text":"最後我想你是鐵板一塊部長抱歉我最後一分鐘稍微已經站起來我只是提一下這個是一個新的展覽你也知道我長期都關心動物保護的議題"},{"start":518.25,"end":536.303,"text":"這個展覽呢它其實在其他國家已經有十幾年了不過呢也有很多的獸醫師會認為是說這其實對於魚類的健康是不利就是說因為它你看起來它很漂亮沒有錯我也覺得說一看畫面很漂亮但是它在裡面是有很多的光線很多的玻璃那其實"},{"start":537.584,"end":563.578,"text":"還有一些是閃光那強光跟閃光其實對魚是不利的再者藍色紫色的顏色對魚是刺激的那現在這個展覽好像是已經有經過相關的許可了那我們也有去查相關的一個法令規定就是說動物展演的部分其實要嘛就受地方政府的一個許可要嘛就是中央政府的公告免許可"},{"start":565.344,"end":565.665,"text":"已經有新聞了"},{"start":580.674,"end":582.335,"text":"因為本席過去到現在對於動物展演的部分特別希望能夠加強我們的相關法律"},{"start":607.492,"end":614.919,"text":"所以後續我也會再跟我們農業部再來請教未來有沒有在法令上改進的空間我們一起來努力好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1286,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時13分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，辛苦了！剛剛本席聽到你回答幾個委員的時候，有講到班班有鮮奶這個政策不是農業部說的。"],["陳部長駿季：「班班有鮮奶」這幾個字不是我們對外的宣導，我們正式的計畫是把國產的這些產銷優質的牛奶……"],["洪委員孟楷：優質嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：優質的牛奶進到學校，那相對的，它不只是鮮奶。"],["洪委員孟楷：不過我就好奇啊！在教育及文化委員會，教育部部長、農業部次長來立院報告也是班班有鮮奶的整備和執行，這個是教育及文化委員會那一天召委的題目，那行政院在17日，在今天早上也下令班班有鮮奶改推新措施，認了政策有瑕疵，所以與其我們一直在講這個名稱跟計畫內容不一定相同，因為現在全國國人都知道，而且是連教育部、連行政院都認為政策就是這個樣子，所以我覺得與其去爭辯說我們當初沒有講這件事情，倒不如來思考怎麼樣精進這件事情。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我非常同意。因為剛才有委員說我們在推鮮奶，我就說我強調的是那個鮮奶的字，我們當初給學校的時候是尊重學校的訂購。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，歹勢，因為一開始聽到第一個班班有鮮奶的時候，其實我就擔憂哦！學校有偏鄉，有山區，有海邊，光本席的選區就好，有大的學校一屆一千多人將近2,000人，也有小的學校6個年級加起來18人，這樣子的一個落差，你真的有辦法做到班班有鮮奶嗎？沒有辦法嘛！所以說到目前為止，即便我問了教育部部長，我甚至問他說即便是保久乳，你到今年年底以前有沒有辦法？他不敢回答我，那是什麼意思？就代表說政策的初衷我們要支持，政策的初衷可以給小朋友喝到牛奶，喝到鮮奶，喝到優質奶，本席都同意，但是不需要用這樣子去做轉變，然後到最後好像一推二五六，教育部不認，說這是農業部的事；農業部不認，說這個和計畫不相干。"],["陳部長駿季：我想農業部絕對沒有不認這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，你班班有牛奶嘛！那班班有牛奶，可能也會講說羊奶算不算好的牛奶？班班有優質奶嘛！班班有好乳嘛！好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會有新的措施出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們分兩個階段，第一個階段就是在這一學期本身，我們對已經……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個學期還是一樣照走。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會有新的措施？"],["陳部長駿季：新的措施一個很重要的原則，就是我們如果推了新的政策，絕對不會增加學校的負擔，這個是非常重要的。第二個……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為教育第一線現場已經有太多的亂象。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們說新的措施一定不會影響到，而且是縣市政府願意來配合的方式。第二個，如果有鮮奶的部分，我們一定會確保鮮奶從乳廠一直到學校班級上面，一定確保它的冷鏈系統不斷鏈。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那這個政策主導到底是教育部還是農業部？"],["陳部長駿季：我想是一起努力的啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：一起努力還是會有……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為兩個和尚是挑水喝，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我想農業部本身……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不管怎麼樣，我的意思是說，現在這個亂象已經造成了，接下來是由教育部主導找農業部來開會，還是農業部主導找教育部來開會？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說了，兩個部會一起合作，但是農業部一定會負更大的責任，針對整個供應量做有系統的確保，接下來就是看用什麼樣的方式讓牛奶進到學校，學校本身就是要讓我們的學童喝得到鮮乳或是保久乳，不管怎麼樣，就是牛奶的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，真的不要德政變擾民。"],["陳部長駿季：不會，我們會從冷鏈……"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，本席回到今天的題目，行政部門應該要尊重立法部門。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政部門應該要去瞭解掌握立法部門提出這個政策有什麼樣的前因後果，尤其是我記得上個會期本席是黨團的三長之一，我們在朝野協商的時候我也一直說，我沒有反對你的3加3這些相關的政策，但是重點是，農糧收購跟這個3加3其實不衝突啊！有一些政策來講，我們沒有要你只能選A不能選B、只能選B不能選A，而是怎麼樣能夠大規模做，一方面你可以精進，一方面你可以改良，一方面你可以鼓勵農民朋友持續，但另外一方面反映物價的部分。還有，我必須要強調，您知道在農糧提高價格收購的這個提案裡面，有哪個黨團反對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：在主決議的時候沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有黨團反對嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那就代表這是立法院113席立法委員共同的一個主決議啊！我現在聽到有一些執政黨的朋友開始跟你在那邊一搭一唱，好像在說對，不能提高收購，那如果說不能提高收購，這個主決議在7月16日沒有任何人有異議，這是在打假球啊！"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛剛已經講了嘛！7月16日，我們上個會期的最後一天，那個主決議在處理的時候，我們來看一下會議紀錄，主席說報告院會，現在國民黨的附帶決議有沒有異議？沒有人有異議啊！民進黨沒有半個人有異議啊！當天的現況是所有的黨團都甲級動員，113席立法委員全都坐在座位上，民進黨沒有任何人有異議，照案通過。台灣民眾黨的附帶決議，請問院會，有無異議？沒有異議，所以換言之，連民進黨的委員他們也不敢反對，或是說他們也支持農糧收購要提高價格啊！現在你會不會覺得很像被放生的感覺？民進黨的委員那個時候不敢有異議，然後現在要嘛就跟你一搭一唱，要嘛就是他乾脆不來，也不去支持你現在不編列農糧收購價格的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告兩件事情，第一件事情就是我們在考慮公糧提高價格，我並沒有說公糧價格以後都不調了，只是說我們在……"],["洪委員孟楷：不能現在調？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能把credit做給國民黨團、民眾黨團？"],["陳部長駿季：絕對不是，我從來不會有這種想法，因為我的想法就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我也希望你不要有這個想法。"],["陳部長駿季：我的想法就是說，我在這一個政策推動之下，會不會造成原來的政策有所變化，特別是我們最近一直在推四選三、大區輪作及相關的轉旱作部分，如果公糧提高的話，會把過去的努力抵銷了。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實抵銷不抵銷這個是政策工具的調整，我已經預期你會這樣講了啦！但是我們現在看的是方方面面，這也是你身為一個農業部部長應該要看到的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：各個方面都有意見，說實在每一個團體或是說每一個要求，我們也不可能照單全收，但我們現在提出來的主決議，這個是立法院113席委員都照案通過沒有異議的，如果行政部門連這樣的一個主決議都可以不遵守的話，那很抱歉，天下大亂！這已經是涉及違憲了，因為變成是行政部門沒有尊重立法部門所做的決議，好，我想你是鐵板一塊啦！","抱歉，我最後1分鐘，召委已經站起來，我只是提一下啦！這是一個新的展覽，你也知道我長期都關心動物保護的議題。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個展覽在其他國家已經有十幾年了，不過也有很多獸醫師認為這對於魚類的健康是不利的，你看起來牠是很漂亮沒有錯，我也覺得一看畫面很漂亮，但是牠在裡面是有很多的光線、很多的玻璃，還有一些是閃光，強光和閃光其實對魚是不利的，再者，藍色、紫色的顏色對魚是刺激的。現在這個展覽好像已經有經過相關的許可，我們也有去查相關的法令規定，動物展演的部分，要嘛就受地方政府的許可，要嘛就是中央政府公告免許可，它就可以做這個展覽。"],["陳部長駿季：像這個是免經許可的部分，但是我們覺得以這種方式，對於動物來講是不友善的作為，所以我們已經行文給臺北市政府這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經有行文了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：已經行文了，希望在動保處的部分，因為11月才開展，所以我們希望它能夠重新考量這樣的設計，雖然說表面上很漂亮，可是那種不同的燈光、不同的波長對魚的一些影響，有的研究甚至還沒有出現，我們希望它從動物福利的角度重新去思考這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，因為本席過去到現在對動物展演的部分，特別希望能夠加強我們相關的法令，所以後續我會再跟農業部來請教，未來在法令上有沒有改進的空間，我們一起來努力，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"]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那我們是不是有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":23.206,"end":50.756,"text":"委員好部長好部長因為今天在討論這個公糧的收購價格事實上我過去也召開協調會甚至我在質詢的時候我也是有跟農業部這邊說如果我們在於針對農民的收入提高公糧的價格是可以考慮的一個辦法但是提高公糧價格我們除了稻農要照顧之外事實上還是有其他的農民"},{"start":51.676,"end":80.492,"text":"是,我想以農業部的立場就是說我們對產業對所有的農民都要有比較一致性的照顧的一個方式對,所以事實上部長你也知道說就像嘉義啦嘉義或是雲林啦我們就是正好介在平原的地方大概都是種植稻米比較多那在沿海地方就是種植雜糧雜糧的部分那如果是雜糧你說黃小玉講玉米就好了講玉米"},{"start":82.393,"end":99.224,"text":"這個玉米的保價收購多少錢9塊現在是每公斤9塊9塊嘛對不對我看起來已經將近40年40年沒有調整那個不是保價那是契作的一個價格他是契作價格對他是契作價格所以他是沒有調整他唯一價格好的時候就是在"},{"start":101.205,"end":125.094,"text":"這個疫情的時候那個時候因為航運出問題他有把他的玉米價格有飆到了差不多12塊那是他最好的時候看起來隨著疫情的結束那航運現在已經都順暢了整個價格又掉下來現在又掉到7塊多所以你現在對於種植雜糧的農民他是事實上種10年都覺得吃不公平"},{"start":126.204,"end":143.87,"text":"因為你如果想,我們好的土地有多少水路、有多少灌溉的,那些都是種稻米的,種雜糧的,他們就是叫做旱區,旱區本身他們那裡的水也比較少,那是全部都說白的,然後我再跟部長提示一個問題就是說,你們一直在說"},{"start":146.416,"end":159.689,"text":"像現在你們要說一級二轉那一級二轉的我講這個二轉二轉的精神就是說我們希望稻米減量稻米減量齁阿這個自然價格會上車嘛剛才講價格就會講到供需的問題阿"},{"start":161.531,"end":176.699,"text":"所以如果種植的減少了自然它的稻米的價格會上升這個是第一個問題第二個就是說我們還是希望這個把種稻因為台灣的稻米糧食過剩所以我們希望把種稻的面積轉為去做轉作轉作雜糧或轉作其他的類似蔬菜蔬果類那轉作的話我們有給它這個轉作金"},{"start":186.364,"end":211.437,"text":"對我跟委員報告就是說這些水稻因為二級做本身的收益就比較比一起做還不好所以我們希望說二級做的部分你如果轉成雜糧的部分轉成其他的部分我們給他一萬五的不重道獎勵以外那相對的這些後續送雜糧的部分我們也會引導一些集團栽培來協助他我們也會補助一些農業的機械讓他也變成一個比較自動化的機械化的一個栽培"},{"start":212.177,"end":236.814,"text":"所以我們說有這個不中道獎金但是我要跟部長講這個在農民在實踐上有他的一個困難這個困難就是我要說的因為我們現在又我們有很多政策要大家一起來全面去看我們現在又有所謂四選三我們又有大區輪座但是我們的四選三是讓農民去選所以你現在說好我要把它轉成不中道獎金他去做"},{"start":237.814,"end":242.5,"text":"種植玉米他去種植漢作 但是他選擇的時候他最怕的是怕什麼 怕旁邊的人繼續要選中了"},{"start":245.919,"end":249.021,"text":"所以這就是委員一直在關心的那我們現在就是說以前是純粹當然沒有說都是自願的啦但是我們希望說他在輪座的時候能夠用一個集團的概念"},{"start":269.632,"end":285.161,"text":"去處理那這樣處理的時候會比較不會造成說隔壁中水道這就沒辦法我們期待他這個一定要你們用所以我們有一些政策的誘因去處理政策誘因之外我感覺稍微施加強制啦你如果說我這區就要用4選3啊既然這樣就讓他們集體做4選3讓他們的決定一樣嘛"},{"start":292.106,"end":310.818,"text":"對,我想我會做相關的一個規範,這個部分委員上次有提到齁,我們已經在做一些規範,就是想辦法讓他們一致性,雖然說自願的,但是他的自願的一致性是非常重要的,這個部分我想我們會再做後續的更精進的一些誘因的設計。部長你也知道,我們最近我才跟你討論說,加金輪高位來齁,不要說紅胎啦,加煉水爐齁。對齁。"},{"start":321.485,"end":332.009,"text":"就困難,對,連種植綠肥都有困難了,對啊,所以你也知道說,你那種漢做的,尤其他在剛開始要補的時候,他是很怕水的,他怕水,像剛才說的,你沒有辦法做好整體的控管,等於是說,對於當地農民的種植,他是很困擾的,"},{"start":340.892,"end":353.182,"text":"所以我覺得我們農業部我們除了這樣一級二轉然後要去提高農民的收入事實上很多配套措施還是要讓整個農作是順暢的他們是可以去做的因為他們總會遇到很多這種我們沒辦法去預測的一個狀況好不好"},{"start":359.097,"end":380.407,"text":"阿第二個齁就是我要講到這個農業保險這個農業保險因為我上次只講到時間比較短齁就是說這個農業保險齁我們知道這個保險覆蓋率事實上剛剛那個郭國文委員有講到保險覆蓋率是一直偏向不足那這個保險覆蓋率不足勒主要還是說他除了強制"},{"start":381.447,"end":408.988,"text":"強制的部分之外你我們去用加強型的但是這個加強型的咧對於農民來說那個誘因就是機會起來雖然我們政府都有補助像我們在嘉義我們嘉義縣政府又再補助三分之一啊農業部這邊也補助三分之一剩下的部分對農民來說大家都說保費不高可是問題他們去補的誘因就沒有啊所以我覺得部長你們有去跟農民聊然後去了解到底實際原因出在哪邊嗎"},{"start":411.228,"end":436.095,"text":"我已經請農金署重新去檢討第一個我覺得保單的設計非常重要保單的設計如果沒有當然理賠不是要去賺錢但是保單的設計一定要符合風險那另外一個就是保單理賠的時候的調查那個非常重要因為調查如果說你沒有一個比較均勻的樣本數的時候就會造成很大的爭議那有一些保單是因為你理賠的爭議性造成農民覺得說"},{"start":437.515,"end":438.935,"text":"對於農民來說誘因不足這只有一個 他們覺得不合用而且現在我覺得農民還是都把這個"},{"start":460.737,"end":472.486,"text":"因為他們過去有天然災害的一個救助所以他們認為說既然有天然災害救助跟這個保險跟這個保險有災害救助然後這個保險沒有更好的誘因"},{"start":473.695,"end":477.558,"text":"對,我們會去設計,我跟你們報告齁,就是就我個人來講,我不要衝那個品項越來越多我寧願品項如果說覺得沒有什麼效果,我寧願關掉我寧願讓開的保單都是農民需要的"},{"start":499.272,"end":501.573,"text":"好,部長我最後一個問題齁我們那個鋪紙肉品市場那阿甲現在到底稍微選擇可以"},{"start":518.03,"end":523.754,"text":"現在對待的就是說若敏市長現在的經費現在大概都已經在那邊了但是相對的就是說他必須要有一個經營主體來去做這樣的一個承接那那個經營主體本身現在還談不攏"},{"start":539.406,"end":544.128,"text":"對,這個部分我想我們會後有機會再跟委員報告。那到底什麼時候可以發報?那現在工程應該可以先開始了吧?因為工程還是需要時間的,你要知道我們在於負值肉品市場的決策就是當時把它停的太早。"},{"start":560.194,"end":560.354,"text":"發言委員：蔡易餘"},{"start":585.94,"end":609.364,"text":"現在看到你到底是誰才可以新建這個事情我跟委員報告那個經營主體要出來才能提計畫才能夠去執行啊而不是說因為現在沒有一個一個主體去提計畫來執行那因為包括我們的嘉義縣政府嘛然後還有續展會嘛然後還有嘉義的這些農會的部分嘛"},{"start":609.804,"end":620.175,"text":"那這三個三方要合資成一個公司以後再來提那這三方現在還在做協調我們會來努力做一個基本的協調這個協調也好久了那到底問題是出在哪邊"},{"start":622.357,"end":639.779,"text":"這個我想有他們的不同的想法啦那這個部分我想可能後續我們還會再努力啦部長我覺得這個是要加速啦因為那個官黑後面是很多人的包括是他整個我們嘉義地區肉品的產業鏈都因為這件事情都出總控了對因為肉品"},{"start":640.539,"end":667.529,"text":"菩提肉餅市長是一個典範他是一個那個土體的分級的一個那個拍賣的部分他跟現在的活住拍賣是不一樣的所以他是一個我們也很期望他趕快大家都期待啊但是隨著時間一直拖一年一年過去我們盡量來協調他們的經營主體應該新建跟不用再等多久的時間這課程要再拖很久的我非常感動的不然我們經費掛在那邊也不是辦法好好趕快加速麻煩謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1208,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時1分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，因為今天在討論公糧收購價格，事實上我過去也召開協調會，甚至我在質詢的時候也是有跟農業部這邊說，針對農民的收入，提高公糧價格是可以考慮的一個辦法，但是提高公糧價格，我們除了稻農要照顧之外，事實上還是有其他的農民，所以……"],["陳部長駿季：是，以農業部的立場，我們對所有的農民都要有比較一致性的照顧方式。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。事實上部長你也知道，像嘉義或是雲林，我們平原的地方大概都是種植稻米比較多，在沿海地方就是種植雜糧。"],["陳部長駿季：雜糧的部分，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是雜糧，你說黃小玉，講玉米就好了，玉米的保價收購是多少錢？9元？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是每公斤9元。"],["蔡委員易餘：9元嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是，那是契作的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：我看起來已經將近40年沒有調整。"],["陳部長駿季：那個不是保價，那是契作的價格。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，它是契作價格，所以它沒有調整。它唯一價格好的時候就是在疫情的時候，那個時候因為航運出問題，玉米價格飆到差不多12元，那是它最好的時候。看起來隨著疫情的結束，航運現在已經都順暢了，整個價格又掉下來，現在大概掉到7塊多，所以你現在對於種植雜糧的農民，事實上種雜糧的都覺得很不公平啦！因為你想想看，我們好的土地，有給它做水路，有給它做灌溉的，那裡都是種稻米的，那種雜糧的咧？哇！他們就是叫做旱區，旱區那裡的水也比較少，這是很不公平的。","我再跟部長提示一個問題，像現在你們要做1集、2轉，我講這個2轉，2轉的精神就是我們希望稻米減量，稻米減量自然價格會上升嘛！剛才在講雞蛋就有講到供需的問題，所以如果種植減少了，自然稻米的價格會上升，這是第一個問題。第二個，因為臺灣的稻米糧食過剩，所以我們希望把種稻的面積去做轉作，轉作雜糧或轉作其他類似蔬菜、蔬果類，那轉作的話，我們有給他轉作金。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是說這些水稻，因為二期作本身的收益比一期作還不好，所以我們希望二期作的部分，你如果轉成雜糧、轉作其他的部分，我們會給他一萬五的不種稻獎勵以外，相對的，後續種雜糧的部分我們也會引導一些集團栽培來協助他，我們會補助一些農業的機械，讓它也變成一個比較自動化、機械化的栽培。"],["蔡委員易餘：OK，所以我們有這個不種稻獎金嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是我要跟部長講，農民在實踐上有他的困難，這些困難就是我要說的，因為我們很多的政策要大家一起全面去看，像現在有所謂的四選三，又有大區輪作，但是我們的四選三是讓農民去選，所以你現在說好，我要把它轉成不種稻獎金，讓他去種植玉米，讓他去種植旱作，但是他種植的時候，最怕的是什麼？怕旁邊的人繼續種稻。如果我這塊田要種玉米，我旁邊的人繼續種稻，他一樣在灌溉，水淹上來就會滲透到我這塊田，所以我種植的玉米就會失敗，我就種不起來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以這就是委員一直在關心的。我們以前是純粹，當然沒有說都是自願的啦！但是我們希望他在輪作的時候，能夠用一個集團的概念去處理，這樣處理的時候比較不會造成隔壁種水稻……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！可是部長，我們沒辦法來期待他，這個一定要你們用……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們有一些政策的誘因去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，政策誘因之外，我覺得要稍微施加強制啦！如果說這一區要用四選三，既然這樣就讓他們集體做四選三，讓他們的決定一樣嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我會做相關的規範，這個部分委員上次有提到，我們已經在做一些規範，就是想辦法讓他們一致性，雖然說自願的，但是他自願的一致性是非常重要的，我們會再做後續更精進的一些誘因設計。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長你也知道，因為最近我才跟你討論說這2個月來，不要說颱風，光是連續下雨，連種玉米的都沒辦法去播種，連種植綠肥的……"],["陳部長駿季：就很困難。"],["蔡委員易餘：連種植綠肥都有困難了耶！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！所以你也知道那種旱作的，尤其剛開始要播種的時候是很怕水的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果它怕水，就像我剛才說的，你沒有辦法做好整體的控管，這對當地農民的種植來說，他們是很困擾的。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我覺得農業部除了1集、2轉，然後要去提高農民的收入，事實上很多配套措施還是要讓整個農作是順暢的。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為他們總會遇到很多沒辦法去預測的狀況，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，好。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個要講到農業保險，因為我上次時間比較短沒講完。我們知道農業保險的覆蓋率，事實上剛剛郭國文委員也有講到，保險覆蓋率一直偏向不足，保險覆蓋率不足主要是它除了強制的部分之外，我們去用加強型的，但是加強型對於農民來說，那個誘因就是拉不起來。","雖然政府都有補助，像我們在嘉義，嘉義縣政府又再補助三分之一，農業部這邊也補助三分之一，剩下的部分對農民來說，大家都說保費不高，問題是他們去保的誘因就沒有啊！所以我請問部長，你們有去跟農民聊，然後去瞭解實際原因到底出在哪邊嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我已經請農金署重新去檢討，第一個，我覺得保單的設計非常重要，當然理賠不是要去賺錢，但是保單的設計一定要符合風險。","另外一個就是保單理賠的調查，那個非常重要，因為調查如果沒有一個比較均勻的樣本數的時候，就會造成很大的爭議。有一些保單是因為理賠的爭議性，造成農民覺得他保了也沒用，所以這個部分包括面積、保單的設計，包括調查的方法和理賠的標準，我們都會重新檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想這部分就是大家去檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：對啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：對於農民來說誘因不足，他們覺得不好用，而且因為他們過去有天然災害救助，所以他們認為既然有天然災害救助，然後這個保險沒有更好的誘因，他們就會去賭看看啦！大家都在賭不會遇到颱風，自然就不用花這筆保費，大家都這麼賭，所以我覺得那個誘因可能還是要再提高。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會去設計。我跟委員報告，就我個人來講，我不要衝品項越來越多，如果覺得品項沒有什麼效果我寧願關掉，我寧願讓開的保單都是農民需要的，然後也真正照顧農民，這是我一個大原則，所以我們叫它重新檢討，不是一直在衝品項越來越多，而是希望已經開的保單是對農民有幫助的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，我最後一個問題，朴子肉品市場到底什麼時候可以開始興建？你們把它拆掉之後就一直拖到現在。"],["陳部長駿季：現在最大的問題是，肉品市場的經費大概都已經在那邊了，但是相對的，它必須要有一個經營主體去做承接。"],["蔡委員易餘：可是這個不是討論好久了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，那個經營主體本身，現在還談不攏。"],["蔡委員易餘：還談不攏？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個部分我們會後有機會再跟委員報告。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，如果經營主體出來的話……"],["陳部長駿季：那就可以直接開始去處理了。"],["蔡委員易餘：到底什麼時候可以發包？現在工程應該可以先開始了吧？"],["陳部長駿季：後面就是提計畫去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為你工程還是需要時間耶！你要知道，我們在朴子肉品市場的決策就是當時把它停得太早了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們很早就把它喊停了。"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：結果當時在那裡工作的，這幾年沒有辦法在裡面就業，對於這些肉品承銷人也增加了他的不便利，當然這部分我們農業部有補助他，但是問題一直都還在啊！這些問題又要等到興建好，正式營運上路後才有辦法解決耶！你們到底什麼時候可以興建，這件事情我們大家都不知道。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，經營主體要出來才能提計畫去執行，現在是沒有一個主體去提計畫來執行，因為包括嘉義縣政府、畜產會還有嘉義的農會，三方要合資成一個公司以後再來提，這三方現在還在做協調，我們會來努力做一個基本的協調。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個協調也好久了耶！到底問題是出在哪邊？"],["陳部長駿季：我想他們有不同的想法啦！那這個部分，可能後續我們還要再努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，我覺得這個要加速。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為它的背後關係到很多人。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：包括我們嘉義地區肉品的產業鏈都因為這件事情而出狀況。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為朴子肉品市場是一個典範，它是屠體分級的拍賣，與現在的活豬拍賣是不一樣的，所以我們也很期望它能夠趕快興建完成。"],["蔡委員易餘：大家都期待啊！但是隨著時間一直拖，一年一年過去。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們儘量協調他們的經營主體。"],["蔡委員易餘：你要想，你們到興建難道不需要一年多的時間？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員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行政院沒有復議你告訴我會不會就好你告訴我針對於立法院7月16日所通過的這個決議那你會不會變"},{"start":197.014,"end":200.642,"text":"所以換句話說你不會變我可以這麼解讀嗎?我可以這麼解讀嗎?"},{"start":204.926,"end":212.388,"text":"請針對本席的提問我們現在是一個民主國家照程序各方有各方的意見不一都可以討論但是我們現在走到民主程序是這樣子請問農業部部長陳部長你會不會依據立法院三讀通過行政院送請行政院行政院沒有賦予你會不會編這個預算"},{"start":234.235,"end":239.958,"text":"我還是跟委員說明你會不會編告訴我請告訴本席你會不會編我們現在目前並沒有這樣的規劃我們希望委員來支持換句話說你就是不甩立法院嘛行政院也沒有復印"},{"start":250.664,"end":278.483,"text":"行政院沒有復議你現在告訴本席是說你不會編我要讓社會大眾大家看清楚誰要照顧農民我們得到了一個答案也就是說立法院三讀通過行政院沒有復議竟然我們農業部也不編我要告訴給民眾我要告訴給農民我如果編了以後只是照顧一小部分的稻農而已我沒辦法照顧所有稻農"},{"start":281.145,"end":282.746,"text":"我請問你還是聽你的話在繳公糧的人這些人怎麼辦這幾年沒有提上這些人怎麼辦這些人怎麼辦"},{"start":307.043,"end":310.945,"text":"你改天把它廢掉你又不敢廢你又不照顧他們這怎麼會如此我告訴你這一些人沒有功勞也有苦勞啊沒有理由不照顧他們啊我今天要轉什麼政策都好但是聽你的話的人"},{"start":330.444,"end":348.99,"text":"竟然是這麼樣得不到照顧那你要怎麼辦?你對得起他們嗎?對不對?你又不敢廢掉你要做什麼政策?我們都OK但是是未知數欸現在乖乖聽你政策的人還在繳公糧的人十幾年"},{"start":349.93,"end":353.711,"text":"十幾年你薪水都漲了幾次啊十幾年都沒有漲你還大大大地說我要照顧他我請問聽你的話的人該當得到懲罰嗎不應當所以部長我相信你也是照顧你也是照顧農民的人本席的話你好好去聽沒說話也有哭話乖乖聽你的竟然還要得到懲罰十幾年沒漲對不起我們的農民"},{"start":376.815,"end":399.842,"text":"你自己冷靜去想我希望在你從議的預算能夠看到這筆預算好不好你趕快去研議接下來本期要跟你討論的也就是極端氣候我們現今救助的部分32.7億億在累計這10年來平均你支出這樣子那在這種情況之下我們好不容易去推動農保 農業保險"},{"start":402.663,"end":428.484,"text":"可是我們看到你的數字你明年所編列的是11.3億左右但是我們看到你實施的也就每一年就上億但是我們看到你的數字我們的農保覆蓋率它沒有達到兩成耶為什麼為什麼你這扣掉扣掉你的這個強制納保的這個部分你實際上只有多少"},{"start":429.224,"end":453.829,"text":"只有多少?17.6%所以該章怎麼辦?該章怎麼辦?極端氣候像我們的離子我沒有想到它掉在袋子裡頭耶結果它是不會長因為它的根斷了一半對不對?我們都去看了每一次我們都要現金救助我的心都痛了農民該章怎麼辦?我們好不容易有一個政策去做這個農業保險那為什麼?"},{"start":456.645,"end":477.202,"text":"為什麼執行不來?扣掉強制保險剩下17.6%你要怎麼因應?我已經要求我們農業部重新檢討那農業保險現在推動比較困難的地方你要求他們重新檢討什麼時候有因應方案你是推廣不夠人民沒有信心還是認為我覺得農民本身的風險的這些概念"},{"start":482.126,"end":496.215,"text":"農民聽得懂啊 要讓人家隊友有信心啊所以我覺得要求農經署跟我們的所屬單位再去跟農民做溝通不是只有溝通 他們很辛苦都有在溝通他們不願意啊 對否定 你現在講到重點 保單的設計也就是我這棵樹 有錢賠 可以賠 我隔壁不能賠 誰會甘願啊"},{"start":511.797,"end":512.598,"text":"這樣是不公平的我這股產我這一塊圓我可以賠我隔壁的不能賠"},{"start":521.874,"end":547.759,"text":"你的請募方式要不要去跟保險公司去檢討啊?這個就是我要求農金屬檢討就是保單的設計跟保單的理賠的標準跟保單要發生理賠的這些調查這個都需要精心去精準的去計算對!你的調查你應該點要放多啊!對不對?這個我們已經要求農金屬在處理多久時間可以告訴我們你們討論的方向改變的方案"},{"start":549.527,"end":560.276,"text":"我跟委員報告 我要求他們一個月來跟我報告報告完了以後有一個初步的成果我會跟委員報告最後一個議題本席請問你為了這個雞蛋進口的搞的送檢調行政處分不知道答案是什麼本席絕對不願意看到一個國家是這麼的紛亂"},{"start":576.26,"end":589.937,"text":"要進口搞了這麼多的事情現在每一天我們剩餘每一天耶雞蛋農啊苦哈哈每一天剩餘多少一百萬克"},{"start":591.789,"end":597.693,"text":"你們的主管告訴我們什麼未來會請國防部學校多使用雞蛋並請養雞協會規劃雞蛋促銷活動以協助消化雞蛋這個不是我們的政策不是你的政策為什麼要這麼說呢讓我們一桶霧水欸我告訴你這個寫這句話我絕對不是我們的國軍我們的學生他要以他的營養為基準來吃東西欸"},{"start":620.347,"end":622.228,"text":"對那這該怎麼辦 這樣的表示要怎麼處理 你要不要澄清"},{"start":642.259,"end":658.635,"text":"說誤解了 說錯了好 這個部分我們會來 我們會來澄清喔 這不是我們的政策澄清 不是你的政策 也說的不對 是不是對 相對的就是整個的基站的產銷好 你去澄清本席不希望造成家長孩子我們的阿兵哥家長都恐慌所以本席要請教 那怎麼解決"},{"start":665.222,"end":667.443,"text":"部長你現在說的還是在怪罪於業者啦你應該針對你是農業部阿"},{"start":692.811,"end":703.308,"text":"你要拿出你的方案 你的總區要不要控管你要從源頭啊 你不從源頭叫人家今天多生一點 明天少生一點"},{"start":705.351,"end":732.248,"text":"誰聽你的話他要生出來不生怎麼辦啊你應該從總機去控管本期要跟你討論這個議題也就是說你應該要好好的去討論我們要解決這個問題你一方面要進口二方面又剩餘那麼多你的問題點交集點在哪裡你的最原本他這個蛋從哪裡來從總機來總機要不要控管"},{"start":732.788,"end":750.591,"text":"你有沒有控管總經?有沒有去輔導?請教我們有在輔導,現在總經也有在控管但是一個非常重要的就是說我不大願意再用補助的方面去將他們淘汰因為我淘汰了老母雞,他們又進了新雞那對整個產業是沒有幫助的你講到這邊,也就是部長我們一個結論你以往的政策,你幫老母雞我一隻一隻多少錢啊?"},{"start":758.877,"end":780.088,"text":"去除的一支多少錢嘛 對不對鼓勵他們去除嘛 對不對你執行了一段時間你應該要滾動式去檢討所以表示之前的這個政策你是不成功的那你要怎麼辦你應該有研議方案出來好不好你去研議方案出來啦進口出了那麼多的"},{"start":780.708,"end":781.028,"text":"我大概兩個禮拜就可以提供給你"},{"start":808.424,"end":811.285,"text":"我想還趁這個機會能夠呼籲我們的消費者因為供需總是要有一個平衡那在需求端的部分希望說我們鼓勵我們所有的消費者"},{"start":835.43,"end":835.751,"text":"主席主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1108,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時47分）謝謝主席，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。針對今天召委所排定的議程，我們的目的，也就是要好好的照顧農民，本席從早上到現在所聽到的，似乎您的方向跟提案委員的方向不太一樣；當然本席也可以看出你終究還是希望能夠好好的照顧農民，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是，我們實務上從民主程序來看，立法院7月16日通過公糧收購案，要求你們應綜合考量各項的成本，包括人工、肥料，包括物價指數，將公糧收購價格從26元再提升5元，以因應目前物價指數的波動，導致農民成本增加，而且十幾年都沒有提升，這是政府的政策。可是到目前為止，這個案子經立法院三讀通過，行政院也沒有覆議，10月9日的時候財政部跟主計單位來立法院報告，我們就針對民主程序提出詢問，它就一句話：尊重農業部。所以本席要請教陳部長，在行政院沒有提覆議的情況下，現在要請你們重議，你會不會編提高公糧收購價格的預算？你會不會編？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，今天……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我會不會編？"],["陳部長駿季：現階段編的是針對我們推動的「1集、2轉、3加3」的一個經費。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，立法院7月16日通過決議，行政院也沒有覆議，以及10月9日的報告，就本席剛剛所說的論述，請問你會不會編？也就是在行政院重議的時候，農業部會不會編提高公糧收購的價格？"],["陳部長駿季：我們目前並沒有針對5塊錢去做經費的調整，但是我們增加了「1集、2轉、3加3」的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，我們一項一項講。換句話說，你不會編，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我們目前沒有編。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前沒有編，未來會不會編？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民主程序，行政院沒有覆議，你會不會編？你告訴我會不會就好！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，公糧的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我，針對立法院7月16日所通過的這個決議，你會不會編？"],["陳部長駿季：我們目前沒有重新編的這樣子的一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，你不會編，我可以這麼解讀嗎？我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望委員能夠支持現在的作法，因為我們的目的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問……"],["陳部長駿季：我想主決議還是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們是民主國家，就照程序，各方意見不一，都可以討論，但是我們現在依民主程序，就是這樣子。請問農業部陳部長，依據立法院三讀通過的決議，送請行政院，行政院沒有提覆議，你會不會編這個預算？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是跟委員說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會不會編？告訴我！"],["陳部長駿季：針對這樣子的一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴本席，你會不會編？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在目前並沒有這樣的規劃，希望委員來支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，部長你就是不甩立法院！"],["陳部長駿季：我們尊重立法院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：行政院也沒有提覆議，你現在跟本席說，你不會編，我要讓社會大眾看清楚：誰要照顧農民！我們得到一個答案，就是立法院三讀通過，行政院沒有覆議，農業部竟然也不編，我要告訴民眾，告訴農民。然後第二個議題……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我如果編了以後，只是照顧一小部分的稻農，沒辦法照顧所有的稻農。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你如果認為是這樣，你乾脆廢掉，對不對？你既然認為以前有錯，就乾脆廢掉！"],["陳部長駿季：這個不是有錯的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不能今是古錯，怎麼可以如此呢？"],["陳部長駿季：現在的雙軌制，我們希望慢慢引導公糧……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：慢慢的引導？請問你，還在聽你話繳公糧的這些人怎麼辦？十幾年沒有提升，這些人怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我想……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這些人要怎麼辦？你敢就把它廢掉？你又不敢把它廢掉。"],["陳部長駿季：公糧價格的升高會造成產業更大的一個危機。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你又不照顧他們，怎麼可以如此？我告訴你，這些人沒有功勞也有苦勞，已經好幾十年了，沒有理由不照顧他們……"],["陳部長駿季：我想所有的農民，我們都要照顧。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：今天要轉什麼政策都好，但是聽你話的人，竟然這樣得不到照顧，你要怎麼辦，你對得起他們嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：還是希望委員能夠支持我們的做法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你又不敢廢掉！你要做什麼政策，我們都OK，但那是未知數。乖乖聽你的政策，還在繳公糧的人，都十幾年了，十幾年來都沒有漲價，你的薪水都漲了好幾次，你還大剌剌的說你要照顧他，請問聽你話的人就該當得到懲罰嗎？不應當！"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對沒有懲罰的意思。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我相信你也是照顧農民的人，本席的話你好好去聽，沒有功勞也有苦勞，乖乖聽你的，竟然還要得到懲罰，十幾年沒漲，對不起我們的農民，你自己冷靜去想！希望在你重議的預算書裡面，能夠看到這筆預算，請你趕快去研議。","接下來要跟你討論極端氣候的問題，我們現金救助的部分32.7億，累計這十年來，平均的支出是這樣子；在這樣的情況下，去年好不容易推動了農業保險，也看到你明年編列的數字在11.3億左右，但是我們看到實施的結果，看到的數字，發現我們的農保覆蓋率還不到兩成，扣掉強制納保的部分，實際上只有多少？只有17.6%！我們該怎麼辦？我們沒有想到，極端氣候讓我們的梨子掉在袋子裡頭不會再長，因為它的根斷了一半，我們都去現場看了。每一次我們都用現金救助，我的心都痛了，農民該怎麼辦？現在好不容易有一個政策去做這個農業保險，為什麼執行不來？扣掉強制保險的部分，剩下17.6%，你要怎麼因應？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我已經要求農金署重新檢討，農業保險現在推動比較困難的地方是它的產量……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要求他們重新檢討，什麼時候有因應方案？是你推廣不夠，人民沒有信心，還是認為我就沒事，我幹嘛要保？這部分要怎麼辦……"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得農民本身對風險的概念……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你講的話要讓農民聽得懂，要讓農民對你有信心……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我現在要求農金署跟我們所屬單位再去跟農民溝通，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不只是溝通，他們很辛苦，也都有在溝通……"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得保單的設計如果好的話，一定會有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在講到了重點──保單的設計，如果我這塊田這塊園有得賠、可以賠，我隔壁的不能賠，誰會甘願？這樣子不公平！所以你的給付方式，要不要去跟保險公司檢討？"],["陳部長駿季：這就是我要求農金署檢討的部分，包括保單的設計、保單的理賠標準，跟保單發生理賠的這些調查，都需要重新精準地去計算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你的調查點應該要放多啊，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們已經要求農金署……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間可以告訴我們，你們討論的方向、改變的方案或是時間？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我要求他們一個月來跟我報告，報告完了以後，會有一個初步的成果，我再跟委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一個月內去報告。最後一個議題，為了雞蛋進口，搞到送檢調、行政處分，還不知道答案是什麼！本席絕對不願意看到一個國家是這麼的紛亂，為了進口，搞了這麼多的事情，現在雞蛋農苦哈哈，每天剩餘多少？100萬顆！你們的主管告訴我們：未來會請國防部、學校多食用雞蛋，並請養雞協會規劃雞蛋促銷活動，以協助消化雞蛋。"],["陳部長駿季：這個不是我們的政策，我要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是你的政策，為什麼要這麼說呢？讓我們一頭霧水，太誇張了！"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，寫這句話的絕對不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的國軍、我們的學生，要以他的營養為基準來吃東西，為什麼要替你們……這樣搪塞。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我先說明，這個絕對不是我們的政策；學校的營養午餐一定是營養師根據學童的需求去設計的，我們不會去干涉……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這該怎麼辦？這樣的表示要怎麼處理？你要不要澄清，說誤解了、說錯了……"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，我們會來澄清這不是我們的政策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：澄清不是你的政策，也說得不對，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，相對的整個雞蛋的產銷……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你去澄清！本席不希望造成家長、孩子，還有阿兵哥跟家長都恐慌，所以要請教部長，要怎麼解決？"],["陳部長駿季：我想產銷的穩定是業者跟農業部要共同努力的目標，絕對不是農業部單方面去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：農業部有什麼政策？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，就是每個禮拜公告相關產銷的資訊，我們希望業者一定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在說的還是在怪罪於業者，農業部要拿出你的方案，種雞要不要控管？你要從源頭處理，你不從源頭，叫人家今天多生一點，明天少生一點，誰聽你的話？牠要生出來，不生怎麼辦？所以你應該從種雞去控管。本席跟你討論這個議題，希望我們好好來解決，你一方面要進口，一方面又剩餘那麼多，你的問題點、交集點在哪裡？這個蛋從哪裡來？從種雞來！種雞要不要控管？請問，你有沒有去控管種雞？有沒有去輔導？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有在輔導，現在種雞也有在控管；但是非常重要的一個部分，我們不大願意再用補助的方式去將牠淘汰，因為我淘汰了老母雞，他們又進了新雞，那對整個產業是沒有幫助的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長講到這邊，我們一個結論：以往的政策，是去除一隻老母雞，就補助多少錢，鼓勵他們去除，對不對？你執行了一段時間，你應該要滾動式檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們有在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以表示之前這個政策你是不成功的，你要怎麼辦？你應該要研議方案出來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去研議方案出來啦！進口出了那麼多的弊端，然後現在讓我們的雞農苦哈哈，每一天生產過剩100萬顆，還要叫我們的阿兵哥吃，叫我們的學生來吃，這是不公道的，對不對？我們幫忙可以，可是不能常態化，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，所以我說這個不是我們的政策，絕對不是我們的政策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是你的政策，你的因應方案多久時間給本席？你要怎麼樣去控管這個問題？"],["陳部長駿季：這個方案我們現在已經初步規劃得差不多，大概2個禮拜就可以提供給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2個禮拜提供，不要讓我們自己的雞農每公斤24.5元都虧本在賣，甚至你有沒有看到還有自助餐，它設了100項都是蛋的菜，哇！這樣子的揶揄，農業部實在是必須要好好地去努力。"],["陳部長駿季：我還是想趁這個機會能夠呼籲我們的消費者，因為供需總是要有一個平衡，在需求端的部分希望鼓勵所有的消費者，因為雞蛋是一個很有營養價值的產品，當然在前端的部分我們會來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我也願意聽到你這一句話，但是我仍舊給你一個結論，也就是說……"],["陳部長駿季：對，生產端的部分我們會來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你鼓勵消費者要多吃，你也要控管你的供需要怎麼樣均衡……"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以生產端的部分我們會來努力。"],[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有請副部長副部長您好 大家都辛苦了"},{"start":15.031,"end":30.647,"text":"我今天來想要請教一下副部長應該有了解近日以來軍紀問題屢屢上新聞你應該很清楚 比我更清楚所以我就直接問了"},{"start":31.408,"end":57.505,"text":"那麼到底國防部目前軍方做了哪一些對應或者是調整措施我想了解一下好報委有關軍事督導事實上來講我們每一個軍種單位都有相關的單位來做督導甚至於到基層的聯隊他都有相關的軍事督導那我們發現到這些我們的少數官兵在營外"},{"start":58.385,"end":58.405,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":77.808,"end":82.431,"text":"謝謝副部長我大概了解了但是我今天來我其實是接收到很多弟兄"},{"start":107.022,"end":111.425,"text":"﹚伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe﹚伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：好，我就直接講、不問了喔！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，不要問。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我本來想請教全動署後指部的運作功能到底是什麼？那我就不問了。我知道的是以高雄為例，平均一個輔導中心會有70個幹部，有的有薪水，但大部分沒有薪水，那到底工作內容是什麼？我今天會提出來的原因是很多人跟我反映，明明他就是回去了、變成後備軍人，不曾被邀請參加輔導中心活動，連LINE群組也沒有辦法被加，又常常看到他們去發物資，民眾都以為是某個特定政黨。所以我就想要問，到底他們的功能是什麼？應該是準備打仗吧？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不是。報告委員，後備軍人組織有後備軍人組織的方式。我們下去後再跟委員報告，因為有的是志工，有的是有給職、有的是無給職。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我就是希望要檢討一下它的功能和它的成效。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們也希望委員提供意見給我們，我們來檢討。"],["主席：請會後去說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們一周之內給委員報告，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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我想非常感謝委員一直對天然災害救助應該更貼切到農民那我們從基層端受理的時候他如果限於10天工作的壓力會很大所以我們做彈性的調整從日日一天變更多的天你前面的作業要調整本期沒有什麼太大意見因為你要確保後面的認定不要有所爭議但是關鍵還是撥補的部分我們要趕快"},{"start":87.208,"end":104.287,"text":"你像現在呢最近這件事情呢從7月啊那個7月的時候所認定的這一個那個天然災害的認定你不分品項這是好的作為但是申請之後到現在已經快一個一季了"},{"start":106.99,"end":127.63,"text":"昨天晚上我還收到LINE對,我知道,跟委員報告齁,我們只要收到地方政府報上來,三年之內一定播然後我們播到地方政府,地方政府才會轉播所以你是說出在地方政府嗎?對,我們的資料顯示齁"},{"start":129.992,"end":149.435,"text":"我們現在的資料顯示以台南市來講就是他提出來大概是5億多對然後現在已經撥付了3億多然後還有2億多那2億多也是這幾天來的我們3天之內一定會撥出去是那有一部分的區域污染因為縣市政府區域的話可能縣市政府還要復刊"},{"start":150.255,"end":150.995,"text":"他還沒有送到農業部。"},{"start":174.182,"end":194.377,"text":"另外一個就是有一個擴大灌區的部分因為以前在山區的部分、本席的部分南西、玉井的部分都還是灌區但是你們在去年的時候說沒有水源把它變成非灌區但問題過往以前有一些灌溉的這個溝渠兼排水的作用"},{"start":195.077,"end":220.779,"text":"但是呢那些設備大家還是要使用啊就後來就找不到事主沒有人要補助啊說你們就要廢除掉了違反信賴保護原則嘛當初把它劃已經劃到裡頭了這是第一個問題部長第二個問題呢之前我們的擴大灌區擴大那個非灌區擴大灌區的概念就是原來的灌區以外的一個非灌區的部分把它擴大本來就是農業部的政策不是嗎"},{"start":221.96,"end":233.689,"text":"對阿,那農業部的政策之後呢後來又變成是充滿變數本來呢在南溪有一個示範區後來也沒有可能再大就沒有消息了那本席想要知道你這政策的態度到底是如何"},{"start":234.877,"end":249.831,"text":"我跟委員報告 特別是南溪的部分 我也要求我們農水組去趁著執行因為擴大灌區本身是我們農業部既定的政策 不管怎麼樣一定要克服這個一定要克服 就算地方有一些 早期的好像沒人管"},{"start":252.253,"end":267.55,"text":"但是他只要是能夠提供我們農民的水資源我們就會去服務這個我已經要求我們農水組確實去做到這政策要延續這不是好的政策要延續對 謝謝委員提醒那過去認為是一個慣區的東西你既然大政策要弄"},{"start":267.81,"end":268.39,"text":"最後我要跟您講一件事情"},{"start":295.735,"end":320.549,"text":"我最近在進行那個台日交流日本方的國會議員就講說那個蔓苗的部分很奇怪台灣的蔓苗都不能過去他們那邊反而走私到香港你先看這個圖在2007年的時候我們的頭期蔓禁止出口之後結果我們就沒有蔓苗出口結果後來變成這個紅線都從香港到日本原因在哪裡?原因很簡單就是我們走私到那邊去"},{"start":321.269,"end":346.592,"text":"那麼走私跑去那邊之後人家說我們就開放漁業協定的時候大家來談就好了就問了一下漁業協定也沒有協定明明是一個很大問題臺日之間有漁業協定為什麼不能拿出來談呢對不對然後第二個問題正產的是我們現在蔓延要從哪邊來我們走私出去蔓延要從哪邊來就從中國大陸來那如果中國大陸來的話哪一天養套殺要把你斷掉那你臺灣的蔓延草原不是game over了嗎"},{"start":347.54,"end":347.68,"text":"對不對?部長,這問題很皺眉。"},{"start":371.305,"end":372.626,"text":"對,我們本來在軟牛上是最有優勢的地方才會投機膜是最好的"},{"start":400.037,"end":402.881,"text":"農道後來變成這樣子對不對部長請重視一下慎重處理阿好 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副部長好我們國軍保防單位查獲共某案件到乎增加了100年到112年度就查獲了40案件共有113人所以對比來說90年到99年的話就獲查的9人而已就是暴增了12倍所以請教部長"},{"start":41.67,"end":57.146,"text":"我們的國軍到底發生什麼事了還有第二個我們再請教這一題我們大陸姐妹6年拿身份證跟4年拿到身份證他們對國安有問題嗎"},{"start":59.196,"end":86.602,"text":"有關於這兩個問題我首先要回答的第一個問題就是說有關於所謂的這樣子共諜案的暴增的情況基本上我們也跟委員報告事實上來講多半都是我們國軍主動發掘的這個百分比大概在86%甚至到87%左右那我相信這樣子的一個方式今天我們國軍之所以會暴增"},{"start":87.81,"end":106.94,"text":"一個原因就是中國大陸對我們在任何方面的滲透採取各種不同方式要來滲透到我們軍隊那我們必須要檢討為什麼會有這麼的管道進來這樣子的一個方式是我們在方式上檢討的這是第一點"},{"start":110.143,"end":136.2,"text":"法際教育上來講我們都必須要告訴我們的官兵因為很多的共諜案發生都是因為小小的利益所產生的誘惑讓我們覺得很遺憾在這個方面法際教育是我們經常在我們的各種不同的手段去教育我們的官兵的第三個我們需要強調的我們今天的國家安全是靠大家"},{"start":138.239,"end":152.075,"text":"國軍是守在第一線守護國家安全當國軍發生任何問題的時候事實上來講我們在全社會上來講也必須要請社會給我們國軍支持也就是說如果他有這樣的現象我們也歡迎"},{"start":152.575,"end":152.735,"text":"麥玉珍"},{"start":169.531,"end":169.891,"text":"發言委員：麥玉珍發言委員：麥玉珍"},{"start":191.359,"end":206.259,"text":"新住民大陸姐妹他們拿到身份證台灣的身份證不會影響到我們在台灣的國安的問題所以也請大家不要再去抹黑或者是拿這個來去當作一個說"},{"start":207.2,"end":223.086,"text":"新住民拿到身份證的問題還有第二個就是說我們的我們很肯定很肯定就是我們的我們國防隊這邊的付出但是呢不過有一些案例就是就是冰山一角啊如何加強"},{"start":224.846,"end":239.059,"text":"保防人員編制提升就是法源依據的標準性還有同時要確保人員升遷的管道要順利才能讓官兵全力防堵共謀的滲透所以"},{"start":241.701,"end":254.974,"text":"保防工作非常不容易大家都是在這個工作很不容易但是除了受到單位主管的打壓還有說獨立性又不到重視的話這樣子的問題我們的國防部這邊的這邊要如什麼策略還有什麼"},{"start":263.401,"end":264.562,"text":"保防部長顧立雄報告業務概況．"},{"start":293.018,"end":304.446,"text":"未來保防他的路線不是這麼窄我們在我們的金管上來講如何做交織訓練讓他有一個未來不是只有在保防圈裡面最後一個重要概念是什麼"},{"start":305.683,"end":305.703,"text":"謝謝委員："}]},"gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時40分）謝謝主席，有請副部長。"],["主席：副部長請。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：副部長好。國軍保防單位查獲的共諜案件大幅增加，100年到112年度就查獲了40起案件、共有113人；對比來說，90年到99年查獲9人而已，也就是暴增了12倍。所以請教副部長，國軍到底發生什麼事了？","還有第二個，我再請教這一題：大陸姊妹6年拿到身分證還是4年拿身分證在國安上會有問題嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，關於這兩個問題，我首先要回答的是第一個問題。關於所謂共諜案暴增的情況，基本上，我也跟委員報告，事實上多半都是國軍主動發覺的，百分比大概在86%，甚至到87%左右。我相信今天國軍相關案件之所以會暴增有一個原因，就是中國大陸對我們在任何方面的滲透！採取各種不同方式，也要滲透我們的軍隊。那我們必須檢討為什麼會有這麼多管道進來，我們是從方式上檢討，這是第一點。第二，就所有法紀教育來講，我們都必須告訴官兵，很多共諜案發生都是因為小小的利益產生這樣的誘惑，我們覺得很遺憾。在法紀教育這方面，我們經常透過各種不同手段教育官兵。第三個，我必須強調的是，國家安全是靠大家，國軍在第一線守護國家安全，當國軍發生任何問題的時候，事實上也要請全社會給予國軍支持。如果有這樣的現象，我們也歡迎提供……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，要給你稱讚啦！之前其他人沒有查獲那麼多，現在查獲那麼多，你有這樣的功勞。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不是，因為如我講的，中共的滲透手法愈來愈複雜、多元化。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以我說很好，就是查獲更多。我們要發現得更早……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對，要發現更早，但是我們希望……"],["麥委員玉珍：才不會危害我們的國家跟安全嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，我希望國軍都不會受到誘惑。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我要問出問題，也稱讚你一下，因為發現更多他們的滲透、又發現得早，就能依法處理，這樣更好。新住民與大陸姊妹拿到臺灣身分證不會影響到臺灣的國安問題，所以也請大家不要再抹黑或把新住民拿身分證當成問題。","還有第二點，我們也很肯定國防軍隊的付出，但是有一些案例就是冰山一角，如何加強保防人員編制、提升法源依據的標準性？還有，要同時確保人員升遷管道順利，才能讓官兵全力防堵共諜的滲透嘛！保防工作非常不容易啦！大家都在工作，很不容易，但是除了受到單位主管的打壓，獨立性又得不到重視，對於這樣的問題，國防部這邊有什麼策略、如何提防這樣的問題？你剛才講的都是你的工作，但是也要保護這些人的工作，那麼你要怎麼做才能真正保護到大家？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員給我這個機會表達。保防是我督導的，而我對於保防工作非常重視，局長也在旁邊，我定期到全省任何地方跟保防幹部座談。我也告訴政戰局局長，未來保防的路線不是這麼窄，我們在經管上要研究如何做交織訓練、讓他有未來，不是只有在保防圈裡面。最後一個重要概念是什麼？保防工作不是只靠保防官，全體官兵每一個人都是保防官，這樣的意識才能遏阻中共每天用不同手段滲透我們，這點跟委員報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝國防部，希望你們保護國家、保護我們人民的安全……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：也要保護軍官大家的安全，這是我們希望的。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員，國防部副部長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155733","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065e43011d474d4d665bc7d127954dabfa1f31331746fe9cf80c29c834b6071bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:34:08 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text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩請勞動部長請何部長"},{"start":13.716,"end":39.604,"text":"委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下"},{"start":41.185,"end":65.425,"text":"勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義那勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予那這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義"},{"start":66.246,"end":72.32,"text":"好,就剛剛講的加上這個新金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的"},{"start":79.288,"end":106.437,"text":"這個大概是現在實務上因為不同的狀況沒關係,如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題我來舉一個例子好了以本辦公室而言就是我個人啦那對於這個我我們自己的辦公室的這些助理們那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果"},{"start":107.017,"end":126.297,"text":"哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁"},{"start":129.163,"end":155.52,"text":"這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了"},{"start":156.32,"end":183.646,"text":"那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢"},{"start":185.607,"end":197.921,"text":"本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯"},{"start":199.483,"end":227.008,"text":"好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、考積獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦"},{"start":228.857,"end":250.743,"text":"再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本性去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎"},{"start":252.11,"end":254.593,"text":"這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛提到的案例所作的解釋,我要念一下就是說,這個案例就是說"},{"start":271.232,"end":289.313,"text":"有一個勞工他在一家公司工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元。最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資。"},{"start":294.297,"end":296.957,"text":"公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元"},{"start":310.221,"end":325.878,"text":"本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼"},{"start":327.119,"end":343.48,"text":"那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本心跟今天"},{"start":344.281,"end":364.973,"text":"好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都大家其實很多人關心因為我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長"},{"start":368.896,"end":378.027,"text":"要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為"},{"start":379.386,"end":401.68,"text":"那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是"},{"start":409.464,"end":425.51,"text":"很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為"},{"start":433.769,"end":456.926,"text":"依據本期的了解他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力真正高薪的原因那良情則木而居那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間"},{"start":458.687,"end":465.881,"text":"不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也"},{"start":468.413,"end":495.649,"text":"其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為"},{"start":496.61,"end":519.012,"text":"或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資它不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新"},{"start":519.512,"end":528.017,"text":"理清：大家回去做點功課：用心去思考：讓我們的法制更健全：做好保護全體勞工的權益,可不可以?"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想就今天專報的題目來跟您討論如何提升國內薪資水準的部分，其次我要謝謝召委，今天專報的題目讓本席發現了從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法40年來一直存在的一個謬誤，我們來看一下。勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義，勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬，包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給與。這個經常性給與當然就是包含了金錢跟實物的部分。我想要請教部長，對於工資的定義，就剛剛講的加上薪金、獎金及經常性給與，部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題？還是你覺得這樣很OK？"],["何部長佩珊：大概現在實務上因為各有不同的狀況……"],["陳委員瑩：沒關係，如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題，我來舉一個例子好了。以本辦公室而言，就是我個人對於辦公室這些助理們，我是經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁，如果哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們，按照這個定義，我可能就違法囉，我這樣講沒有錯吧？這個例子按照這個邏輯，大家可以想想看。","再者，勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了，這個條文其實都沒有動過，這樣子算是有定義嗎？更扯的是，本席查了這個條文的定義，居然是抄自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的，部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被職安法給取代了，難道勞基法這個部分就不用修正嗎？所以我接下來想請教的是薪資等不等同工資的問題。","這張簡報是勞動部的勞動統計名詞，裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資、加班費，以及其他非經常性薪資。經常性的薪資又包括了本薪、津貼、生產績效業績之工作獎金。很清楚的勞動部是把本薪、津貼、跟績效連動的工作獎金視為不同的項目，這是很清楚沒有錯嘛！我們看行政院的公務人員調薪的加薪，加的是本俸、專業加給、主管加給，依照通過調薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了。你們公務人員的工作獎金、考績獎金是固定以月薪來給與，固定月薪有增加了，自然你們的獎金也就增加了，這樣也沒錯啦。再不然，如果我說把所謂的績效跟本薪去做連結的話，績效指標又都是雇主可以決定，甚至去認定的話，這樣雇主是可以隨時以績效的理由去對勞工減薪，難道你們勞動部也認可嗎？按照你們的邏輯。"],["何部長佩珊：當然不可以啊！"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！當然是不可以啊，雖然你們不認同這樣子，但你們的邏輯卻是這個樣子的嘛！這個報導是去年條平司副司長針對本席剛剛提到的案例所做的解釋，我要唸一下。這個案例是有一個勞工在一家公司裡工作了將近6年，薪水一路從2萬3,000元調到3萬2,000元，最近因為老闆說營收不如預期，所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資，後來你們勞動部就講了，公司減薪沒有取得員工同意，已經觸法，最高開罰100萬元，這就是你們針對這個案例所做的處分。","本席上次在院會質詢，主張的是經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升，反映的是這個本薪跟津貼，績效獎金其實也是薪資的一部分，沒有錯，但是應該要分開來處理，獎金是可以變動的，我們不能用績效理由來影響到本薪跟津貼。最近我總質詢也特別提到……其實很多人很關心，因為我們討論法人調薪的事情，當然某些人主張要以績效作為調薪的理由，這是絕對錯誤的觀念。我想是這樣，身為勞動部部長，拜託千萬不要變成慣部長，也不要有慣署長，因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了，那些都是慣老闆的行為。更何況就是說，如果勞動部認為可以根據經營績效去連動本薪跟津貼的話，那麼雇主為什麼不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞工減薪？所以這個邏輯就是很奇怪，就是你們勞動部憑什麼、有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰？你們回去好好想一想。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員瑩：所以本席是建議勞動部去瞭解一下台積電等經營績效卓著企業的薪資結構，因為依據本席的瞭解，他們的本薪跟津貼都不是占他們整體薪資很高的比例，績效獎金才是真正的動力，真正高薪的原因。良禽擇木而棲，好的企業為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才，就是因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間嘛，不反映合理薪資的制度當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊！","其實可能很多人沒有注意到，但我有留意到，部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拚而被起訴，我想這個是光榮的紀錄，證明部長也算是一位有理想的政務官。勞基法第二十一條規定「工資由勞雇雙方議定之」，好的企業就不怕人才的薪資高。所以本席認為，或許今天要提升勞工的薪資不是單一勞動部的政策工具就可以解決，但是你要保護現有勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響，我覺得勞動部還是有能力可以做到的。所以部長，我今天特別把這整個概念重新釐清，大家回去做點功課，用心去思考，讓我們的法制更健全，做好保護全體勞工的權益，可不可以？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。","本日會議詢答全部結束。","委員蘇清泉、邱鎮軍、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","外展服務","勞動部重啟外籍看護工外展計畫，並更名為多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫，希望能建立外籍看護多元聘僱模式，來解決家庭照顧相關問題並提升照護品質。","「外籍看護工多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫」意見座談會已召開兩場，請部長說明價格規範的緣由。","該計劃作為長照的補充人力，解決服務時數受限，但需夜間型或全日型的受照護者，納入4小時、8小時、半日型（12小時）、全日型（24小時）等多元選擇，使用者完全自費價格如何訂定？","服務價目表必須依時數透明公開，勞動部如何主動承擔管理與稽查責任，避免價格混亂？確保價格低於非法看護工？","據了解，外展試辦計畫輔導監督NPO是沒有聘僱移工經驗的協會？請問部長，沒有經驗，如何聘僱、管理鐘點看護工？","外展接案單位為NPO（桃園群眾？萬人社福？受恩？）實際情況卻是委由仲介團體（工會）承攬相關業務？（美家？）勞動部是否規避圖利特定團體之嫌？","外籍看護多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫","明年底預計將有10個單位承接，每個單位預計將有10位外展移工服務1,000人次，這個計算單位如何計算出？（跨國勞動力發展組，2024）試辦計畫如何評估成果？預計達標到何種程度正式上路？","公務機構技工、工友算是勞工！？","公務機構之技工、工友及駕駛已自87年7月1日起適用勞動基準法，近年兼具勞工身份的工友團體陳情，基層職工久任一職、無職等可升、無年功餉級數可升，嚴重打擊工作士氣，作為勞動部長關心勞工，是否願意為這些基層勞工，向政府部門爭取？請人事總處提出檢討報告至辦公室說明。","印度勞工引進的事宜。","請問勞動部，有關受照護者為「失能」、「失智」、「身障」病人或老人，其本人或家屬，因台籍看護薪資高於一般家庭平均所得所能負擔，因此合法聘僱外籍家庭看護工，簽訂工作契約卻沒有獲得保障，看護工常因「怠工」、「轉換雇主」、「違背工作契約」、「逃逸」等現象，造成以上家庭嚴重失能。目前台灣逃逸的外勞，在黑工市場工作人數有多少？","其中有多少比例，原為家庭看護工？","台灣給外籍勞工的薪資，位居亞洲最高前列，加上給外籍勞工的健保等福利，在亞洲引進外籍勞工市場上是有競爭力的。請問勞動部，為何逃逸外勞仍高達8.6萬人？","很多「失能」、「失智」、「身障」病人或老人的家庭反映，台灣現在制度似乎對於逃逸外勞無力解決！？請問部長，這些需要人照顧的雇主家庭，其權益保障在哪裡？","逃逸外勞不僅是「國家安全」問題，無法追蹤逃逸外勞去處，也造成逃逸歪風無法遏止，造成合法雇主、合法仲介、合法移工，受到非法市場的嚴重影響。請問部長，如何解決逃逸外勞的問題？","台灣社會對印度男性性侵案件多之刻板印象表示擔憂，超高齡社會對於長照需求的增加，同時也要解決勞動力不足的問題，例如向本席陳情的：「社團法人台灣失能者家庭暨看護雇主國際協會」提議，在兼顧勞動力需求，而女性勞動力在長照中扮演重要角色，建議引進印度「女性」勞動力是一個解決方案。這不僅可以消除各界對印度性侵形象的擔憂，同時提供長照家庭多一個新的勞動力來源國選擇。請問勞動部，有沒有自印度引進家庭類移工的規劃？","勞動部，必須正視台灣缺工問題，是否考慮全面開放產業及家庭類移工？才能透過消除因缺工及聘僱移工不易所造成的黑工市場，恢復正常外籍勞動力的供需。同時，我認為，必須積極處理外籍勞工逃逸與失聯問題，並進而提供罰則增加逃逸阻力。請問部長，這個方向你支持嗎？","此次引進印度移工，是否有規劃引進長照移工？印度英語好，勞動部是否有與衛福部研究，引進看護人力輔助護理師？","本席希望勞動部對此應該審慎與衛福部研究，部長對此有與衛福部聯繫過嗎？","這些印度移工來台前工作訓練的費用，是否由台灣僱主負擔？還是政府承擔？本席再次提醒勞動部，對移工的需求，除了產業界，長照或看護家庭本身的支出負擔已經很沉重了，勞動部對此有何因應措施？本席希望部長於一個月內，來向本席辦公室提出切實可行的方案，以解決這些失能需要人照護的僱主家庭的困境。"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","一、邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系統」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","二、邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【專題報告綜合詢答】　　【10月16日及17日二天一次會】","議題一：非典勞工工作權益保護","Q1-1：針對UberEat跟Foodpand申請合併案，相關主管機關意見非常重要，部長昨天說勞動部反對，並且已經去函表達意見了是嗎？","Q1-2：勞動部反對的原因，主要是認為這件合併案會對外送員的權益帶來什麼衝擊嗎？","Q1-3：請問部長，到底外送員與平台是不是雇傭關係還是承攬關係？","Q1-4：平台業者並不接受勞動部雇傭關係的見解，他們針對勞動部認定條件，立即修改合約，強化承攬關係，根本沒有誠意保障外送員勞工權益，勞動部卻無可奈何。部長表示反對制定專法，請問有什麼其他辦法可以加強管理外送產業？","Q1-5：部長昨天有證實勞動部已經與交通部著手研訂「外送運費」，包括調漲每單基本費、夜間加收20元、送上樓加收5元，及延滯取餐5分鐘加收5元，理由是為了保障外送員權益，請問未來這些加收的錢是不是百分百給外送員？","建議：本席認為既然是\n            以保障外送員權益名義加收的費用，應該都要給外送員，或者至少要佔大部分比例。","Q1-7：部長，上次山陀兒颱風全台放兩天以上的颱風假，但對企業沒有強制力，有專櫃員工抱怨被迫上班或扣薪，但平台及外送員反而不能比照企業自主，部分地區根本無風無雨，卻無論開車或騎車都不能接單，影響外送員生計，凸顯制度很亂！請問部長你認為勞基法應修法強制規定企業必須給予颱風假「有薪休假」嗎？相關規定應不應該統一？","結論：這些都是非常實際的問題，請部長重視勞工在颱風天被強迫上班的問題，也不要讓外送員成為勞基法「勞工權益保障」的漏網之魚。","議題二、全國缺工會議及農業移工問題","Q2-1：部長，上個月初最低工資審議會，勞資雙方呼籲政府要召開全國缺工會議，許次長也有承諾。請問部長目前研議的怎麼樣？到底會不會召開？大概什麼時候？","Q2-2：那次會議許次長也表示，勞動部會逐步改進營造業、農業部門缺工問題，本席非常關心農業移工引進問題，在部長一上任就向部長表達希望檢討農業移工外展模式，請問有沒有最新進度？什麼時候才能調整農業移工外展模式？現在直聘也很困難，有沒有研議可以由政府直接協助聘請及管理的模式？","結論：政府應該要正視面對農業移工需求！現在逃逸移工越來越多，移民署最新資料，今年8月逃逸移工已經達到8.8萬人，比疫情前成長八成，幾乎快一倍了，政府根本束手無策。除了是來源國問題，勞動部沒有確實掌握各產業實質缺工及滿足需求，也是主要問題，請部長要加油！","議題三、中高齡就業及安全保障","Q3-1：我國即將邁入超高齡社會，中高齡再就業及延後退休成為社會共識，但針對中高齡勞工職災風險如何加強分級管理，以提升安全保障，這部分勞動部有沒有進行研究？","Q3-2：昨天我們也談到勞保改革，其中一項就是延後退休，包括鼓勵企業留用或進用65歲以上的員工，但我認為政府應該要做企業表率，先從政府投保勞保的技工、駕駛員、工友及清潔隊員先著手？讓技工工友延後退休？這點部長可不可以承諾與銓敘部展開溝通？"],["委員楊瓊瓔書面質詢：","移工仲介應妥善管理　直聘、公立機構移工服務如何升級？","我國缺工嚴重、移工人數也大幅成長，截至112年底移工在台人數超過75萬人，近十年增加20萬人，移工仲介產業規模也日益龐大，但移工仲介上人權、不公平待遇等問題層出不窮現管道分為仲介公司、直接聘僱聯合服務中心、雇主自行引進，但仲介為主。直聘中心成立迄今16年，每年引進比例未超過一成。","是否能健全公立就業服務機構對移工服務的功能？升級直聘中心？","加強檢查私人仲介以及加強就服機構管理措施，勞動部有何作為？","是否能增加移工教育訓練機會，協助適應融入？","移工失聯人數攀升　勞動部如何因應？","據統計，截至112年底，失聯未查獲移工人數8萬6,352人，佔整體移工人數11.16%，失聯人數比起十年前增加一倍，不斷創下新高。包括無法適應、不滿待遇、雇主不當對待、勞動條件差等等，勞動部除修法加重裁罰基準，並應要由源頭防止移工失聯，現在效果如何？未來如何精進？是否加強查核評鑑仲介公司？或如何改善移工處境？","正職待遇輸打工加劇缺工　如何因應？","行政院核定明年最低工資2萬8,590元，時薪調升至190元，但長年來最低工資月薪累計調幅低於時薪，近九年兩者調幅差距高達逾15個百分點，勞團及資方皆擔憂，這會讓很多年輕人捨棄正職，而選擇打工兼差，因而加劇正職缺工。","依明年最低工資計算，若從事時薪工作，以一天八小時、工作22天計算，時薪可領3萬3,440元，而月薪僅2萬8,590元，中間差距達4,850元。近九年來，最低工資月薪調幅達42.9%，時薪調幅更達58.3%，兩者差距達15.4個百分點。","請問部長，政府態度為何？有無因應措施？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（12時43分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155732","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30659cee92d0b056278a60efc051a48f2135f31331746fe9cf8013061e3f2a29d5c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"12:32:14 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我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了 制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話"},{"start":428.693,"end":429.754,"text":"公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義十幾年沒調漲"},{"start":447.495,"end":469.543,"text":"那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時32分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，你好。根據農業部主力農家所得調查，稻農的家戶收入，看起來過去10年是有成長的，可是我們看這個報告可以發現，其實增加的都是農業外的收入，農業的收入並沒有成長。也就是說，其實他在農業方面沒有賺到錢，是靠其他工作才追得上物價成長，這部分部長瞭解嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：根據我們的農家所得調查，它分為從事農業的所得和從事非農業的所得，這裡看起來應該是兩者加起來。相對的，我們現在看這22.5萬戶稻農，我們的資料顯示，民間集團契作的所得會高於純粹繳公糧的所得。"],["涂委員權吉：根據這個資料顯示，其實他是靠農業外的收入，才讓所得有所成長。農業部說增加公糧收購價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家，可是我們也查過，像種植果菜、雜糧等其他農家，他的10年農業所得都比這些稻農高，是不是應該幫忙這些稻農？"],["陳部長駿季：其他的品項，其實他們都是認真照顧，以優質產品獲得比較高的市場價格來支撐所得。至於稻作的部分，我們的集團產區契作栽培也是這個道理，是用品牌去提高他的所得，但公糧就是靠政府提高價格。所以我們也要引導這些種植公糧的稻農去做集團栽培，用他們的優質稻米去支撐所得，我想這才是一個比較正常的市場機制。"],["涂委員權吉：我有看農業部的報告，剛剛部長也說了，針對稻農的政策就是「1集、2轉、3加3」，多元輔導稻農，像輔導他去做契作、轉作，甚至宣傳食米教育等等，這些我們都是支持的，但是這10年做下來，看起來好像並沒有立竿見影，看不到特別的成效。"],["陳部長駿季：整個稻作的產業結構調整，其實我們也有其他配套，最重要的是，如果支撐在某一個面積的話，大概是24萬公頃左右，那麼相對的，當產地價格提高的時候，對稻農的收益就有幫助。所以稻作四選三、大區輪作，包括對地綠色環境給付，其實都是在支撐稻農的所得。"],["涂委員權吉：其實你們仔細去看，現在肥料、生產工具的價格都成長，農業部說，怕公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本再度上升，可是你要知道，公糧價格十幾年沒有調漲，但是這些都已經漲成這樣。這十幾年公糧價格沒有調漲，可是肥料、農藥、生產工具都漲成這樣，所以公糧收購價格調整，其實並不是增加他的收益，應該是追趕這十幾年的落差。"],["陳部長駿季：您剛才說的肥料和農藥部分，其實這3年來並沒有增加，是增加其他部分。"],["涂委員權吉：生產工具等等都增加。"],["陳部長駿季：針對稻農，我們也有輔導他們，要有合理化施肥和合理化用藥，所以農藥和肥料的部分並沒有太大波動，整體來看它的成本是增加了，這10年間大概增加9%左右，但是相對的，產量也有一些精進和提高，所以每1公斤稻穀的產量，大概是減少2%，並沒有到10%。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這個問題，還有銷售計畫的面向，像農家繳的這些公糧數量和稻農種植的面積，它不是只看價錢而已。你看，根據調查數據顯示，112年預計收購38萬2,000噸，結果沒有收購到足額，還去市場多採購四萬多噸。也就是說，事實上氣候、供水、輔導休耕等等，都可能對它有所影響，所以農業部不應該只針對這個問題，好像價格提高就會和農民繳交的數量劃上等號，擔心價格提高之後，你們就會收太多公糧，但是銷售不出去。"],["陳部長駿季：您這個表就是一個非常好的例子，108年是57萬5,000噸，那時候的面積是27萬公頃，到了112年是三十三萬多噸，表示農民並沒有繳那麼多公糧，也代表產地價提高了。因為農民繳公糧是自願的，當產地價高的時候，他就會去繳民糧，而不是繳公糧，所以公糧的收購數就會變少，這是一個好現象，因為產地價比公糧的收購價還高。所以針對這個部分，我們要控制面積，儘量讓產地價提高，才會讓我們的稻農所得整體提高。"],["涂委員權吉：所以農業部有去做一些輔導，包括轉型、契作，甚至是提高品質，讓他們以更好的價錢賣到市場，這樣他們也不會等公糧收購。農業部擔心這項糧政業務會造成財政負擔的問題，其實你們應該針對去除存糧的數量和收入進行檢討，而不是只單方面檢討公糧收購價格支出的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：委員說的非常對，我們的公糧收購制度不會就這樣取消，但是公糧本身的調整，需要有一個機制去做檢討，這部分我們一定會去做。但以現在來說，我們評估在這個時間點推「1集、2轉、3加3」，這樣對稻農的收益會更好，後續我們也會檢討公糧收購的部分，不只是看價格，還要看其他因素，這些我們後續會處理。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我們是建議並存啦！公糧收購價格提高，其實關係到公平正義，因為十幾年沒有調漲。你也知道其他的生產工具都漲成這樣，但是公糧沒漲，至於其他的輔導轉型、提升品質、輔導契作等等，你也可以儘量去做啊！等他做到好，他可以賣更好的價錢，也就不會等你回收公糧，所以我覺得這個還是可以多頭進行。十幾年沒有調漲公糧價格，應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義！"],["主席：請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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是不是 沒錯吧那這些我們在醫院看到的有很多外籍看護是跟著長輩到醫院去幫助那個醫院的護理人員從事這個長者的照顧嗎好 所以說我們看一下護佐既然可以到機構"},{"start":274.702,"end":294.094,"text":"去協助這些工作他還有從事這個服藥的非核心業務這個能力那你覺得他可不可以進入到一般醫療機構你們現在沒有放寬到醫院喔你們現在是只有到機構跟家庭那你覺得這些人可不可以到醫院去喬外森未來沒有問題未來沒有問題對的麥克風講好不好來我們請署長"},{"start":296.609,"end":321.981,"text":"跟委員報告現在衛福部要準備要開放的護理醫護所的中階它是未來是所有的醫療機構都可以包括醫院對都已經沒有說只限於上面的但是目前勞動部只有到機構對那個是移工對那個是機構移工那喬外森呢喬外森目前是沒有限制在這個所以喬外森也可以到醫院去對未來是可以現在進來現在可不可以"},{"start":322.541,"end":342.26,"text":"跟委員報告,因為剛剛翠北提到那個慈濟他其實不是僑外生,他其實是移工進來,機構移工是屬於第二類的,年輕移工去進修後那所以是以學生身份進來的,未來他們習得副理專業之後可不可以到醫院去?都可以部長是這樣嗎?很好,所以這下我要坐著"},{"start":343.101,"end":359.249,"text":"今天我大概幾乎就問的您都接受來往下一頁所以其實我們來看一下機構的雇主跟家庭看護基本上其實以目前外籍移工進入我們的家庭他的華語能力不見得比一個在台灣受過3到5年教育的學生的橋外生來得好嘛部長同意嗎"},{"start":360.649,"end":380.302,"text":"對,如果是學生來臺灣的僑外生他的語言能力一定比引進的外籍看護好嘛第二個,他的專業技術能力也一定比這些外籍義工好嘛所以讓這些僑外生積極的不要說取代啦積極的來參與到我們機構家庭甚至未來醫院擔任輔佐的工作你會全力支持嗎"},{"start":381.902,"end":399.25,"text":"但是我們也希望說這個工作因為我要跟部長說明一下這幾年來我8年都常常在東南亞跑新南向的工作持續在做我發現很多越南甚至包括泰國部分的印尼"},{"start":400.01,"end":416.485,"text":"他們過去只是輸出移工看護到我們臺灣來做這個非技術的工作但是他們現在發現臺灣的技術教育非常的好而這些國家本身的醫護的教育培養的質跟量都還不夠"},{"start":417.325,"end":438.175,"text":"所以現在台灣很多的護專還有護專五年制護專的學校包括屏東的慈惠他們都很希望引進這些僑外生這些僑外生進來之後五年了語言也好了技術也有了那他們因為不是本國人不能取得醫護師的護理師的證照但他可以到醫院去從事護佐這樣的方向部長你支持嗎"},{"start":438.775,"end":463.401,"text":"我們支持支持而且目前就朝這個方向好那您現在大力的支持讓去教育部跟衛福部來處理現在又有什麼問題呢他們的招生遇到了他們在招收橋外生這樣的一個來台灣接受護理培養教育的人的時候呢教育部啊對他的額數是有做管制的您覺得他們的額數管制是擔心他們衝擊到本國勞工的就業機會嗎會嗎"},{"start":466.128,"end":483.615,"text":"其實是不會這句話就很好了就要您這句話我要跟教育部說因為教育部常常說我們之所以限制名額考量到勞動部長期以來對本勞的工作機會的保障但是這些人有沒有損及到我們本國醫護人員的工作權有沒有"},{"start":484.741,"end":500.343,"text":"如果他們從事一戶左的話因為我們跟衛福部都有關於這方面的所以確定沒有人力的控的那一個因為那個都是有名額的嘛那我們大概也都有了解所以我現在就是關心名額因為教育部在招生名額有管制嘛所以我要問你"},{"start":501.204,"end":524.211,"text":"就你認為引進這樣的人力可以解決醫院的人力荒提供我們國人在醫院裡面接受會護理專業以外核心技能的照顧人員的照顧有幫助嗎?也不會損及到本國醫護人員、專業人員有政大人員的工作權,不會嗎?好,那接下來我希望你用同樣的態度來協助我們解決長途或者是區域客運車駕駛員的這個問題,可以嗎?"},{"start":527.512,"end":542.817,"text":"可以我們也開放了也開放了對我們都提到國發會就是醫院互佐、客運司機、貨運駕駛我們開放了這三類那這三類當中國發會也通過了那這三類當中如果他是以"},{"start":543.217,"end":555.643,"text":"橋外生身份進來的學生經過學校休業後也可以做這些工作?對,可以。都可以做這些工作?對,可以。很好,我們趕快把這個好消息盡量的宣布出去。我有跟交通部長建議,其實這些學校他們在比如說貨運,就是這種運輸物流類的,應該是多可以開班。"},{"start":563.847,"end":590.522,"text":"不要只是侷限在STEM的就是那個理工類的這樣子的開班的狀態所以您說交通部長他同意嗎?支持嗎?沒有,我有跟他建議的你現在建議,所以我下次找交通部長來支持這樣的想法應該是要跟教育部一起談是,因為現在這些部會他們都擔心說因為如果沒有勞動部首肯他們擔心開放這些橋外生進來我們的職業、職場領域會損及到本國勞工的勞動權益委員這個我們完全配合完全配合,謝謝"},{"start":593.988,"end":594.049,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1101,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時24分）主席，我不會吃醋，如果你只給姓名兩個字的委員比較長的發言時間，我都可以接受。"],["主席：因為他是本委員會的委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。上週這個時候我問邱泰源部長增設護理佐解醫院人事荒的問題，今天我要關心的是放寬僑外護理生留臺工作的問題。我們看第一張簡報，你們現在推出了中階技術人才計畫，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們希望資深移工能夠達六年有很高的技術，或者年輕移工取得在職進修，這些都可以繼續留下來從事專門技術，尤其是取得副學士，通過僑外生評點的可以在臺灣做專門性的技術工作，對不對？前面兩項是移工身分進來，經過技術認定或進修讓他可以繼續做中階的技術，但是後者是學生進來，所以他後來就可以在臺工作，是這樣嗎？沒錯喔？沒有關係，部長，你可以用麥克風說一下「對」，這樣我就知道，至少我不會問你願意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是、是，對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再看下一頁。我們看到因為這樣的關係，勞動部長甚至說僑外生可以從事中階的房務即觀光旅宿業，你也同意客運司機跟醫院的護佐也在討論中嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們看到花蓮慈濟醫院就引進了第二批的菲國護佐，就是僑外生，他們現在開始招收僑外生，這個政策是部長支持嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，而且已經通過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我知道。所以我想請教一下，那目前這些進來的沒有到醫院，現在只能到機構跟家庭，沒錯吧？可是在看護的部分，我們想想看，在家庭或機構的長輩如果生病了要到醫院，是不是？沒錯吧？我們在醫院看到有很多外籍看護，這些是跟著長輩到醫院去幫助醫院的護理人員從事對長者的照顧。所以我們看一下，護佐既然可以到機構去協助這些工作，他還有從事服藥的非核心業務的能力，那你覺得他可不可以進入到一般醫療機構？你們現在沒有放寬到醫院，現在是只有到機構跟家庭，那你覺得這些人可不可以到醫院？就是僑外生，未來有沒有問題？"],["何部長佩珊：請署長向委員說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，現在衛福部準備開放的護佐，未來是所有的醫療機構都可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括醫院？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，都已經沒有只限於上面這些。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是目前勞動部規定只有到機構跟家庭。"],["蔡署長孟良：對，那個是機構移工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那僑外生呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：僑外生目前是沒有限制在這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以僑外生也可以到醫院去？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，未來是可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在可不可以？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，您剛剛特別提到慈濟，其實那些不是僑外生，其實是移工進來，是機構移工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個屬於第二類的？"],["蔡署長孟良：對、對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：年輕移工在進修之後。"],["蔡署長孟良：對、對，他是屬於那類。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那以學生身分進來的，未來他們習得護理專業之後，可不可以到醫院去？"],["蔡署長孟良：都可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，是這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，今天我問的您大概都接受。繼續看下一頁，我們來看一下，機構的護佐跟家庭看護，基本上其實以目前外籍移工進入我們的家庭，他的華語能力不見得比一個在臺灣受過三到五年教育的僑外生來得好，部長同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，如果是學生來臺灣的僑外生，他的語言能力一定比引進的外籍看護好嘛！第二個，他的專業技術能力也一定比這些外籍移工好。所以讓這些僑外生積極的，不要說取代啦，就是積極的來參與到我們機構、家庭，甚至未來到醫院擔任護佐的工作，你會全力支持嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我要跟部長說明一下，這八年來，我都常常在東南亞跑，新南向的工作持續在做，我發現很多越南，甚至包含泰國及部分的印尼，他們過去只是輸出移工看護到我們臺灣來做非技術的工作，但是他們現在發現了臺灣的技職教育非常的好，而這些國家本身醫護教育培養的質跟量都還不夠，所以現在臺灣很多的護專還有五年制的護專學校，包括屏東的慈惠，他們都很希望引進這些僑外生，這些僑外生進來五年之後，語言也好了，技術也有了，他們因為不是本國人，不能取得護理師證照，但他可以到醫院去從事護佐，這樣的方向部長支持嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們支持，而且目前就是朝這個方向在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那您現在大力的支持，讓教育部跟衛福部來處理，現在遇到什麼問題呢？他們在招收僑外生來臺灣接受護理培養教育的人的時候，教育部對這部分的額數是有做管制的，您覺得他們的額數管制是擔心他們衝擊到本國勞工的就業機會嗎？會嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：其實是不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實是不會，這句話就很好了，就要您這句話，我要跟教育部說，因為教育部就常常說，我們之所以限制名額，是考量到勞動部長期以來對本勞的工作機會的保障，其實這些人有沒有損及到我們本國醫護人員的工作權？有沒有？如果他們從事醫院護佐的話。"],["何部長佩珊：不會啦！因為我們跟衛福部都有對這方面人力的了解，因為那個都是有名額的，我們大概也都有了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我現在就是關心名額，因為教育部在招生名額有管制嘛，所以我要問你，就你認為引進這樣的人力可以解決醫院的人力荒，提高我們國人在醫院裡面接受會護理專業以外核心技能的照顧人員的照顧，這個有幫助嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也不會損及到本國醫護人員、專業人員有證照人員的工作權，不會嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那接下來我希望你用同樣的態度來協助我們解決長途或者是區域客運車駕駛員的問題，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：可以，我們也開放了，我們都提到國發會，就是醫院護佐、客運司機、貨運駕駛，我們開放了這三類，國發會也通過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這三類當中，如果是以僑外生身分進來的學生，經過學校修業後也可以做這些工作了？"],["何部長佩珊：對、對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都可以做這些工作？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],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耳朵都關起來那我就問你是不是一塊錢都不要爭我告訴你 你也說這樣五塊錢我做不到我就要加個加個兩塊加個三塊都不行一塊錢你不可以爭 幹嘛咧"},{"start":52.634,"end":60.962,"text":"我跟委員講就是我跟委員報告就是我們看的是造體的成我們現在推了這個部分然後工糧的部分我們也會去處理我們以現在的規劃我們是不準備調整工糧的價格但是我們會試著我們後續的職業是我們立法院的決議"},{"start":77.117,"end":81.94,"text":"立法院的決議也是為了照顧農民的權益,那我們用另外一個方式來協助農民。"},{"start":93.387,"end":117.501,"text":"農業部公務預算是1692億基金預算大概747億兩千億了對然後可用的可用因為有些撥補的部分可用的大概兩千零兩千多億了兩千多億即便按照你算的其實你灌水很多啦說五塊錢的話會增加一百多億這其實沒有灌水這個是我們精算出來的那休耕怎麼算這個帳呢休耕為什麼算在裡面這個帳休耕休耕"},{"start":121.715,"end":121.775,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":144.808,"end":169.129,"text":"這個下一句話你可不要回答,就乾淨卓榮泰或者賴慶德叫你挑你就挑了啦,這樣就行了啦看屯房稅這個公糧收購是一個pew很純粹的農業民生的問題結果這個看起來貌似中良貌似老實的一個陳部長原來這麼政治化來,我們來另外一個關心一個題目你不是喊出來"},{"start":173.985,"end":196.92,"text":"賴總統"},{"start":197.506,"end":226.306,"text":"他上任以後的一個所謂的德政欸照顧我們的小孩子發育得更好營養更充足有蛋白質有鈣等等的喝鮮奶結果現在來講到你這裡執行的滴滴答答這個時候想到現在小學生變成農林榆木的救世主只要大陸那裡很卡結果馬上就學生來消耗"},{"start":228.551,"end":241.293,"text":"2022年 蔡英文執政的時候 班班吃食班 總共花了6億9個月收攤啦 我不知道你班班喝鮮奶 什麼時候要收攤"},{"start":242.421,"end":258.937,"text":"我跟委員報告齁大概分兩個階段第一個階段就是這月期我們已經訂購的這些學校我們會努力的去達成他那個學童都能夠喝到牛奶那因為我們斑斑喝鮮牛並不是農業部的口號我們這是媒體"},{"start":260.818,"end":260.858,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":283.744,"end":284.585,"text":"什麼時候可以全部喝到?"},{"start":306.457,"end":309.579,"text":"我想我們會盡量的努力這個要看爐廠的供應量是不是能夠上來沒有 這個部分還有牽涉到學校的下單的部分齁"},{"start":324.206,"end":325.667,"text":"10月底一定可以喝到不一定喝鮮奶"},{"start":345.936,"end":347.618,"text":"我們會根據學校的學校的選擇因為學校選擇是75%左右是選擇包酒乳最後這兩個有什麼不一樣"},{"start":358.717,"end":366.686,"text":"他的品質營養都是一樣但是兩個就是因為他的配送方式不一樣最後一個小問題就是AGO法現在兩岸關係這麼緊張這麼不好AGO法可能會全面取消喔這個對農產品的"},{"start":376.036,"end":387.104,"text":"影響是很大的還是影響不大?我想我們很持續的關切這個議題那以現在目前ECFA本身的18個品項來講以112年大概4170幾億然後它的關稅成本大概581億那這個581億其實也是一個風險所以我們會積極的針對比較重要的這些品項"},{"start":398.192,"end":398.452,"text":"早就該做的啦!"},{"start":424.486,"end":448.374,"text":"有媒體公開呼籲啦,我們台灣的經濟水平比大陸高這麼多,還用不著啦,還用不著啦我們重視每一個市場,包括中國市場,我們都重視這個東西還要去WTO,WTO就是公平貿易,你要佔人家便宜回到WTO的話,現在我們很多也禁止大陸農產品進來對不對"},{"start":451.537,"end":473.5,"text":"禁止大陸農產品進來台灣吧有沒有這個是在多年前是嘛大陸農產品他也可以他自己都有啊他就是就是不管你是政治目的還是什麼的我們不要這樣看他沒意義就不要了就不要了農產品就不要了"},{"start":473.959,"end":476.503,"text":"我們還是會積極透過因為WTO的一個協商機制來來啟動相關的 去WTO一個海 我跟你講 去WTO你就要開放這個道路的農產品進來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":992,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時24分）謝謝主席，有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你好。今天早上我來了幾次，聽你說了半天，你的態度非常強硬，立法院決議公糧收購價格增加5元，結果你現在就是顧左右而言它，反正沒有人要聽意見，耳朵都關起來。我就問你，是不是連1元都不增加？不然你也應該回答如果要增加5元，我們做不到，或者就算加個2元、3元都不可以，連1元都不可以增加，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在推動這個，至於公糧的部分，我們也會去處理。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要和我說細節，你就回答是不是連1元都不能加？"],["陳部長駿季：以現在的規劃，我們是不準備調整公糧價格，但是我們會試著後續的這些……"],["賴委員士葆：1元都不加嘛！視立法院的決議如無物嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：立法院的決議也是為了照顧農民的權益，我們是用另外一個方式協助農民。"],["賴委員士葆：那你來當立委！現在有一百多位立委決議這樣做，但是你直接把它否決。請問你，農業部一年的預算有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：農業部的公務預算是1,692億元。"],["賴委員士葆：加上其他的。"],["陳部長駿季：基金預算大概747億元。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣就有2,000億元了。"],["陳部長駿季：對。因為還有些撥補的部分，可用的大概是兩千零……"],["賴委員士葆：二千多億元。即便按照你們的計算，其實你們灌了很多水，還說調整5元要增加一百多億元經費，沒有人這麼算。"],["陳部長駿季：這個絕對沒有灌水，是我們精算出來的。"],["賴委員士葆：休耕呢？休耕為什麼算在裡面？休耕的六十幾億也算在這裡面。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，主要有兩方面，如果提高公糧收購會增加金額，這是一件事情，另外一個就是我們對稻農的支持，一年大概156億元。"],["賴委員士葆：灌水啊！你們把其他部分都算在這個帳裡面，用來恐嚇大家。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，下一句話你可以不用回答，其實很簡單，只要卓榮泰或者賴清德叫你調整，你就會調了啦！就是這樣而已啦！就像囤房稅。公糧收購是一個很pure純粹的農業、民生問題，結果看起來貌似忠良、老實的陳部長，原來這麼政治化。我們關心另外一個題目，你不是喊出班班喝鮮奶，說4年44億元，結果現在只有15%喝鮮乳，80%喝保久乳。","你們督導班班喝鮮奶的政策，這是賴總統上任以後的德政，要照顧我們的小孩子，讓他們發育得更好、營養更充足，有蛋白質、有鈣等等，所以讓他們喝鮮奶，結果現在你們執行的零零落落。這時候我們就會想到，現在小學生變成農林漁牧的救世主，只要大陸對什麼東西喊卡，馬上就轉由學生消耗。2022年蔡英文執政的時候提出班班吃石斑魚，總共花了6億元，9個月收攤，本席不知道你的班班喝鮮奶什麼時候要收攤？"],["陳部長駿季：大概分兩個階段，第一個階段就是這學期已經訂購的學校，我們會努力達成讓學童都能夠喝到牛奶。因為班班喝鮮奶並不是農業部的口號，我們是……"],["賴委員士葆：是誰的口號？"],["陳部長駿季：這是媒體下的標題。我們是針對國產牛奶的部分，希望把它推銷到學校，讓學校……"],["賴委員士葆：你們推銷的是鮮奶，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們不是，這個口號是外界喊出來的，我們是針對牛奶，保久乳和鮮乳是因為學校……"],["賴委員士葆：所以保久乳也包含在裡面？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。保久乳和鮮乳是學校的選擇，其實這些都是牛奶。因為學校對保久乳的需求量比較高，但是現在保久乳的產能來不及供應，所以我們啟動一些調度，協助乳廠供應，不要有的學校喝了很多，有的學校都還沒喝到，我們會儘量以學童都能夠喝到為目標，至於以後……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以全部喝到？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會儘量努力，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候？請你告訴我一個時間，總是要有努力的目標。"],["陳部長駿季：這要看乳廠的供應量是不是能夠跟上。"],["賴委員士葆：你是農業部部長，你不知道嗎？你不知道他們什麼時候可以供應上嗎？學生家長現在很生氣喔！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個部分還牽涉到學校下單的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：你說了一堆理由，但我質詢時間快到了，請你告訴本席什麼時候可以做到班班喝奶啦！不管是鮮乳或者保久乳。"],["陳部長駿季：我們第一階段的目標，就是10月底班班都能喝到，我們是希望用這樣的方式，也會儘量去協調。"],["賴委員士葆：10月底一定可以喝到，但不一定是喝鮮奶，保久乳也可以。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們會根據學校的選擇，因為75%左右的學校是選擇保久乳。"],["賴委員士葆：這兩個有什麼不一樣？"],["陳部長駿季：它的品質、營養都是一樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：都一樣，但是處理的方式不一樣，大家一看就知道。"],["陳部長駿季：配送方式不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，現在兩岸關係這麼緊張、這麼不好，ECFA可能會全面取消喔！這對農產品的影響很大？還是影響不大？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會持續關切這個議題，以目前ECFA的18個品項來說，112年大概是四千一百七十幾億元，關稅成本大概581億元，這581億元其實也是一個風險，所以我們會積極針對比較重要的品項應變。其實我們也有盤點，這些品項過去也因為……"],["賴委員士葆：請你說清楚啦！ECFA如果停掉，對你來說，心裡的感受怎麼樣？是沒關係？還是有點緊張？還是我都準備好了？"],["陳部長駿季：它的風險是在可控的範圍之內，我們會積極將這些比較高風險的品項輸往高端市場，這幾年也有一些績效。"],["賴委員士葆：早就該做了。有媒體公開呼籲，臺灣經濟水平比大陸高這麼多，不需要ECFA啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們重視每一個市場，包括中國市場，我們都重視。"],["賴委員士葆：這個東西還要經過WTO的協商，WTO就是公平貿易，你要占人家便宜……回到WTO，現在我們也禁止很多大陸農產品進來臺灣，對不對？有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：這個是在多年前……"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！大陸自己也有農產品啊！不管是政治目的也好，或是其他的，我們不需要這樣看別人的臉色，乾脆就不要了，ECFA就不要了，農產品也不要了。"],["陳部長駿季：我們還是會積極透過WTO的協商機制，啟動相關的……"],["賴委員士葆：我告訴你，去WTO協商就糟糕了，因為你就要開放讓大陸的農產品進來。"],["主席：請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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部長能在一個月內。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月內會給大家？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望國防部一定守住自己本位，即使行政院有壓力，你也要堅守，好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們會，我們會。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛委員，各位請回。柏鴻輝就是前朝留下來的。","接下來進行詢答的委員是楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065989eac8f166e27ea60efc051a48f2135f31331746fe9cf80cbf5781e8931119d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:17:48 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26年後勞工薪資調整到百分之百那公糧收購價格你要不要調整"},{"start":84.827,"end":112.336,"text":"我想我想勞工薪資要調整到什麼程度你才要調整公糧價格我想公糧收購要去調整他不是考慮到其他的勞工的基本薪資好沒關係勞工基本薪資你不看那我再看下一個13年來物價指數上漲多少?超過15個百分點然後央苗上漲的幅度多少?13年來部長這你手上掌握一下吧大概10%大概10%"},{"start":115.336,"end":118.297,"text":"央苗每盤由28元上漲到40元啊我講13年這都是我從你們農業部拿來的資料啦你看後面都在點頭上漲43%"},{"start":135.737,"end":160.909,"text":"所以現在我們講農民的公糧收購,除非你剛剛是廢掉這個制度,照你的邏輯是什麼?我管你漲到43、53、83、330,你的意思都不動囉?公糧收購價格都不動囉?我想我們沒有說公糧收購價格一定不動,我們一定會...你剛剛回答的時候,反正我就放在那個地方,你總有一天你要去什麼,到一般市場去賣?"},{"start":162.384,"end":189.823,"text":"為什麼因為公糧收購價格照你的方式這樣擺下去你到最後賣給公糧是虧的你不就政策目的達成不過我想跟委員報告齁其實我們看的是我們關心的是產地的價格產地的價格才是支持產業的部長我回到跟你講一件事啦我們賴總統說啊他的使命是照顧2300萬台灣人民的生計啊然後要讓經濟的成功的果實跟全民共享難道農民是被排除在外嗎"},{"start":190.714,"end":217.2,"text":"沒有我想我們農業部的責任也是要去照顧農民謝謝啦從公糧收購做起吧我還是回頭一件事啊13年光央苗就漲了43%農藥肥料13年漲了多少?漲了25%可是你就是聞風不動26元你就是不肯調我今天的話雖然立法院決議調5元啦可是你現在是1塊錢2塊錢3塊錢你也都不調啊不是嗎?"},{"start":221.189,"end":238.259,"text":"我跟委員報告齁其實我們農業部在看我們希望說照顧到農業的收益的過程之中我也要支持產業的永續發展這個才是重要的沒關係啦我支持你產業的發展理念你直接宣布公糧價格取消嘛制度取消你又不宣布取消你該派個實質判死刑"},{"start":239.281,"end":241.442,"text":"可是相對的他的收益跟他的產量也在不斷的滾動所以我們看的是最後的一個收益的部分"},{"start":266.815,"end":268.756,"text":"部長,我告訴你,你的政策齁,有些人受益,有些人受害"},{"start":292.455,"end":317.925,"text":"但是今天公糧價格為什麼今天立法院決議要做這個調整就是因為對現在的農民這些公糧收購的農民不公平嘛你過去整個政策你沒有調整的過程當中更何況我跟你講我沒聽前面的委員質詢我還不知道你的目的勒你搞了半天就跟他講反正總有一天你就要去市場賣阿你的意思是這樣阿我確實阿你照你的做法你就非得到市場賣阿"},{"start":319.346,"end":336.288,"text":"公糧的收購是純粹指示繳公糧的人但是他會影響整個市場的一個機制的運作所以我跟你講你這本企業直接把繳公糧這些人拖出去了啦我們會慢慢的引導他們到你沒有慢慢"},{"start":337.645,"end":363.895,"text":"所以我們很多集團栽培的部分反正我就是價格定在那裡到時候你攪公糧的人你就不用來攪了我跟委員報告我剛才也說了就是說我們現在目前我們希望一級二轉參加三的部分我知道你現在你要為政策辯護啦但是說真的今天公糧收購攸關的農民喔我是覺得今天你剛剛在前面委員答詢的時候我請農民好好聽聽啦到底原因是什麼謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":944,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時17分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長，本席剛剛聽到你和邱委員的詢答，忽然醍醐灌頂，忽然懂了，你們沒有要取消公糧收購嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在不會取消公糧收購這個制度。"],["羅委員智強：但你們是實質廢公糧啊！你的意思不就是這樣？本席聽了你們詢答，其實就是這個意思啊！來，本席一個、一個問題問你，立法院通過的決議案，就是收購價格每公斤新臺幣26元，調升5元。本席想請問，公糧價格多久沒有調整？"],["陳部長駿季：上次調整是100年。"],["羅委員智強：13年沒有調整嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員智強：基本薪資調整幾次？"],["陳部長駿季：4次吧！"],["羅委員智強：調了多少幅度？勞工基本薪資調整12次啦！工資漲幅53.64%。如果再給你13年，26年後勞工薪資調整到100%，你們的公糧收購價格要不要調整？勞工薪資要調整到什麼程度，你們才要調整公糧價格？"],["陳部長駿季：公糧收購是否調整，不是考慮這些因素，例如勞工的基本薪資調高。"],["羅委員智強：好，沒關係，你們不看勞工基本薪資，我們再看下一個，13年來物價指數上漲多少？超過15%。13年來秧苗上漲的幅度是多少？部長，這部分你總要掌握吧！"],["陳部長駿季：大概10%。"],["羅委員智強：43%啦！"],["陳部長駿季：秧苗？"],["羅委員智強：就是秧苗啊！秧苗每盤由28元上漲到40元。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。秧苗過去大概1公頃……"],["羅委員智強：本席是指這13年來。"],["陳部長駿季：如果是這13年，大概是百分之二十幾吧！"],["羅委員智強：這都是我從農業部拿來的資料啦！你看後面都在點頭，的確是上漲43%。所以說到農民的公糧收購，除非你剛剛是說要廢掉這個制度，要不然照你的邏輯是什麼？就是不管漲到43%、53%、83%、330%，你的意思是公糧收購價格都不動囉？"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有說公糧收購價格一定不動，我們一定會和……"],["羅委員智強：你剛剛回答的時候是說，反正就是放在那個地方，總有一天你要到一般市場去賣，為什麼？因為照你們的方式做的話，最後賣給公糧是虧的，這樣你們的政策目的不就達成了？"],["陳部長駿季：不是。其實我們關心的是產地的價格，產地價格才是支持……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你說一件事，賴總統說他的使命是照顧2,300萬臺灣人民的生計，要讓經濟的成功果實和全民共享，難道農民被排除在外嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，農業部的責任也是要照顧農民。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啦！從公糧收購做起吧！本席回頭說一件事，13年光秧苗就漲了43%；農藥、肥料這13年漲了多少？漲了25%，可是你們就是聞風不動，一樣是26元不肯調，雖然今天立法院決議調5元，可是你們現在是連1元、2元、3元都不調，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在照顧稻農收益的過程中，也要支持產業的永續發展，這才是重要的。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你！沒關係，我支持你們的產業發展理念，那你們就直接宣布公糧收購制度取消嘛！但你們不宣布取消，卻實質判死刑，不是這個意思嗎？你們學大法官啊！"],["陳部長駿季：現階段我們的公糧制度沒有調整，我們要照「1集、2轉、3加3」……"],["羅委員智強：照你的邏輯，連秧苗上漲43%，你們都聞風不動，你們就是想廢除它嘛！如果連農藥、肥料……"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有這個意思。"],["羅委員智強：問題是過去這13年就是漲那麼多，我問你，今天秧苗漲價，他的種植成本會不會漲？"],["陳部長駿季：可是相對的，他的收益和產量也在不斷滾動，我們看的是最後的收益，相對的，我們也會看其他的……"],["羅委員智強：他的成本一直在漲，但是你們的收購價格是固定的，可是你剛才又說他的收益在增加，我的數學可能沒有部長好啦！"],["陳部長駿季：因為我們的稻穀收購是雙軌的，現在稻農如果不繳公糧的話，收益會比純粹繳公糧還高。"],["羅委員智強：部長，本席告訴你，你們的政策有些人受益，有些人受害，為什麼今天立法院決議要調整公糧價格？就是因為對繳公糧的農民不公平嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們只照顧到一小部分的人啦！"],["羅委員智強：過去整個政策沒有調整，而且如果沒有聽到前面的委員質詢，我還不知道你們的目的，搞半天，反正總有一天你就是要去市場賣，你的意思是這樣啊！確實啊！照你的做法，就是非到市場賣不可啊！"],["陳部長駿季：公糧收購純粹只是針對繳公糧的人。"],["羅委員智強：對，但是繳公糧的人不是人嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：但是它會影響整個市場機制的運作，大部分……"],["羅委員智強：所以我告訴你，正本清源的方式，就是直接把繳公糧這些人拖出去啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會慢慢引導他們到民糧的部分，我們有很多集團栽培……"],["羅委員智強：你們並沒有慢慢引導，你們是直接不管他們的成本漲多少，反正價格就是定在那裡，到時候原本繳公糧的人就不來繳了。"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才也說了，目前政府是希望做「1集、2轉、3加3」。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我最後做個結論啦！部長，我知道你現在要為政策辯護，但是說真的，我覺得你和前面委員的答詢，要請和公糧收購攸關的農民好好聽一聽，到底原因是什麼，謝謝。"],["主席：請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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工作項目的移工但是如果要爬電線桿接觸配電這就是不行嘛因為他必須要有證照對不對所以就是台電你要趕快去培訓嘛因為台電的這個配電外線的作業技術人力老化"},{"start":297.829,"end":324.417,"text":"是這樣嗎?是,我們還有預備就是給他開放輔導這樣子進來的基層體力工已經過一定程度一定程度年限以後他有語言的溝通能力他已經是資深移工他要成為中階了我們的移工六台九院本來就有那個所謂的資深移工變中階的這樣的一個機制嘛這樣的人我們建議台電可以優先輔導他考照啦"},{"start":325.037,"end":332.806,"text":"然後來從事台電這方面的工作我們是預備要給他有這樣子的可以開放這個部分這樣子"},{"start":333.8,"end":356.83,"text":"好,因為民進黨執政之後一直在推這個韌性的電網,對不對?台電現在坦白講,如果以那個什麼那個 Google 的那個點閱率還是什麼流量台電都算是蠻高的吧,包含電惠嘛,包含這個整個債務的問題種種嘛所以講到台電大家都會特別的去關注這件事情,但現在台電的能力老化嘛"},{"start":357.61,"end":378.531,"text":"所以要讓台灣有這個任性健康的這樣的一個電網基本上這事情不解決就出大問題嘛所以應該行政院要把它當成是一個非常重要的一個這樣的一個政策然後去怎麼去普及到這樣的一個能力嘛所以我覺得勞動部如果說就要叫台電自己去建立台電自己去培訓這樣的人力這個"},{"start":380.612,"end":406.982,"text":"沒關係,我們等下再來討論啦齁不過林委員,這個臺電其實過去他們其實都有培訓的這樣的機制捏但是在我們勞動部有辦法找到相關的這樣的一個培訓的課程嗎?不不,那臺電自己就有培訓的能力了他自己有培訓的能力?他甚至有訓練所他們早年就都是培訓自己本國的技職生建教合作只是現在技職生本國人越不願意進入這個領域"},{"start":408.742,"end":433.888,"text":"不然你這麼講因為我是從移工講到這個地方那如果是這麼說那等於是勞動部就是這事情就是你台電資料去處理我勞動部就是不處理也不是所以我在幫忙我在幫忙是說你喬外生以及資深移工啦中階啦就是我們所謂的可以成為中階技術人力的這樣的人因為這樣的人他有一個問題就是說他需要考證照"},{"start":434.868,"end":452.716,"text":"而且他要有懂語文能夠跟台電員工溝通要不然就怕出人命啦對所以這個其實是一個需要慎重的問題那麼我們現在是建議他先循中階人力的這個方式來禁用這樣子"},{"start":454.838,"end":464.428,"text":"我現在就要連結到我們勞動部有相關的一些職人的培訓課程嘛我只是很訝異說為什麼沒有把台電這一塊納進來我覺得有點納悶啦部長可以看這個臺灣就業通這是我們在處理的嘛"},{"start":471.096,"end":488.537,"text":"其實委員我們也有跟台電建議是說你其實可以我甚至可以幫你來開班來帶訓你這句話要講啦你這句話不講我就會覺得怪怪的啦到現在開幾班了沒有沒有我們也有跟台電提這樣子的建議"},{"start":489.378,"end":503.412,"text":"對啦,台電沒有接受也不是說沒有接受啦,他認為他就是要從國外直接引移工啦那如果是台電的問題,那我就來找台電來好好把這個事情看怎樣溝通處理"},{"start":505.173,"end":532.236,"text":"沒關係,我現在部長因為我時間到了啦我後面還有一些事情要講你看啦齁臺灣經貿通識我們跟勞動部的支持應該是毋庸置疑的嘛因為下面就有勞動力發展署嘛對不對所以這個是我們在強化的一個一個一個一個在職訓練的一個網絡嘛應該這麼講部長你覺得這裡面有寫嘛自助旅行國外班這個是課程還是"},{"start":534.553,"end":540.456,"text":"是這個課程是執訓還是在培養興趣?自助旅行然後一個人學費7,900我們政府負擔要6,320塊"},{"start":547.079,"end":572.933,"text":"那我處理院去看了很多培訓、看似執訓其實就比較像在培養興趣班我不能講說這個興趣未來能不能變成一個職能或許會嘛然後我們又開了很多好像這個創意手作工藝品這好像有點在社區、龍寨相關的這樣的政府的部門在支持也蠻多的然後他要把它變成一個職訓好像職能"},{"start":573.934,"end":588.949,"text":"要間接到一個職能好像也有一個蠻大的一個區塊所以我剛剛才會用台電的引力來講另外一個像餐廳業大缺工對不對這個我們都很清楚我們在餐廳業的相關的職能訓練也幾乎其為"},{"start":593.001,"end":617.022,"text":"比例也不高啦比例不高那我為什麼要把這個事情拿出來講因為昨天的諮詢我也已經特別提到怎麼會政府編的預算然後好像在鼓勵人家做不對的事情相對的我們現在一直補助我們在補助什麼補助我跟部長講一下齁有幾個課程也是在這個臺灣居委通裡面顯示出來的部長可以看一下個人財務規劃金融產品分析與食物班"},{"start":618.883,"end":631.148,"text":"學會5040我們政府要負擔4032金融正確交易事務班學會8910我們政府要負擔7128股市投資理財策略事務班學會8880政府要負擔7104所以如果照這麼講勞工不是不能投資股票"},{"start":647.452,"end":674.543,"text":"投資股票已經是全民運動讓勞工有正確的訊息我也覺得有其必要但是把這個相反在職能的訓練部長覺得合理嗎?所以剛剛開始的前面那幾段話可能部長再讓一下嘛我就問部長說勞工看到這些勞工要小心嘛這是誘導的情況這些老師基本上"},{"start":676.069,"end":693.441,"text":"我們職法署有TEST過嗎?有了解過嗎?他們在這樣的一個勞動部辦的職能訓練裡面來教勞工做這些事情這些老師萬一教得好就好教得不好是要找你勞動部勞法署負責嗎?還是我們在幫這些老師掛保證這個是屬於職能訓練的一環嗎?"},{"start":706.53,"end":719.078,"text":"委員我們來檢討好嗎就是因為這裡很多時候是比如像工會他們主動提這樣的案來那適不適合我覺得是不是可以設立一個一個一個一個"},{"start":721.449,"end":745.149,"text":"我剛剛有特別提到說勞工要去投資股票基本上健康的我們無庸置疑嘛對不對他們不然辛苦的基本公司還是多了一些相關的一些這些的其他的包括你女總統的薪資加起來可能都幾萬塊而已他可以去投資股票證券的管道我覺得無庸置疑但是你把他放在職能這一塊"},{"start":747.113,"end":767.648,"text":"有問題嗎?我們來檢討台灣就業通貨經費最主要來源是就業保險基金還有就業安定基金就保跟就安嘛對不對這個我們把這樣的錢放在這個地方去支持這樣的一個訓練我是覺得真的是"},{"start":768.99,"end":797.226,"text":"也要輔導這些工會他們在提案的時候對那個課程的形式我們也是要跟他們要有一些我要再提醒一下部長連勞保署都有自己相關的課程部長應該很清楚吧所以你是要鼓勵這些勞工勞動部是要培訓國外明燈還是要幫你們這個相關的基金勞保相關基金來操盤不然為什麼臺灣基金會也有你們勞保署也有"},{"start":800.668,"end":824.908,"text":"還是我們要一個正式提案,相關部會都必須要這樣因為這個股票就已經是全民運動了,投資股票是全民運動了不然你勞方署、署本部也有啊,你臺灣就業通也有啊而且我們補助的每班補助的額度,你看都八成一班七千多塊、八千多塊,我們政府都要負擔七千多啊所以我才問說你臺灣就業通你到底是要"},{"start":826.032,"end":829.775,"text":"我現在要請勞動部部長我們來檢討啦,就是整個包括甚至是署例嗎?不是啊,署長你應該要答幾句好不好?你讓部長你回答我,我覺得你當署長這樣不好吧?"},{"start":850.72,"end":877.245,"text":"我昨天才在問你們114年的總預算新部長單位有沒有新的相關的新興的一個項目來支持這個勞工沒有甚至於現在是預算還沒審有可能還會比1130更少的預算那你把這些錢從救安跟救保來處理這樣的項目把它當成一個勞工的職能你們說得過去嗎我相信部長不曉得這個事情啦阿現在連你出本部也都有捏"},{"start":879.11,"end":906.802,"text":"你要等到在野的委員來出來這個多久了報告委員那個剛剛委員提到的我們整個來檢視一下確實我們有一些課程其實如果跟他未來的職能的發展沒有相關性應該是不應該去做這樣的核定這個我們來檢討公衛期待要有這樣的班我基本上我也會支持那你們看用什麼樣的項目是不是新興的項目去處理你把它放在職能"},{"start":908.592,"end":909.733,"text":"沒有道理吧部長要小心吧我覺得應該很多事情都要再盤整一下吧好 謝謝兩個星期內整個檢討報告給我們好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":954,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你先看這個投影片的文字。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：第一，透過免費的網站，分享如何使用，來追蹤法人買賣股票的交易動態。第二，分享利用免費的軟體及APP，來選擇績優並可以長期投資之股票。第三，選擇適合穩健基金投資標的買入，創造長期穩健之投資收入。第四，迎向操盤手正確心態：1.穩定比賭一波重要；2.風報比永遠是主要考量；3.勝率不如福利來得重要。如果勞工看到這些文字，部長有什麼建議？"],["何部長佩珊：這看起來是投資誘導，請委員指示。"],["劉委員建國：我是說勞工看到這些文字，你會給勞工什麼樣的建議？"],["何部長佩珊：應該要慎選。"],["劉委員建國：要慎選，因為可能有誘導對不對？就像部長講的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們現在先進入到今天的正題，今年的5月23日，部長剛就任沒多久的時候，我有特別在這個地方質詢，失聯移工的問題非常嚴重。當時失聯移工總數應該是8.6萬快逼近8.7萬，是5月的時候。9月20日移民署公布最新的資料，說臺灣的失聯移工已經達到8.8萬，逼近9萬大關了，其實應該更多，這個要怎麼辦？","5月質詢的時候我也明確指出，因為失聯移工只靠內政部移民署五百多名的專勤隊員在查緝，坦白講這樣要把將近9萬的失聯移工找回來，那幾乎是微乎其微的事情，我們都很清楚這是一個現狀，也是一個現實。部長你再看這兩則新聞，突開車門害祖孫媳摔車後又遭車子輾斃，這個是失聯移工肇逃。另外一個是居留逾期移工酒駕肇事，見警開溜最後遭到逮捕壓制。","現在臺灣的移工總數已經來到79萬9,196人，這幾個月應該就突破80萬了，那失聯移工就要突破9萬甚至更高，大概都是時間的問題。我是在想，我們還要再開放他國的移工進來，全國的國人會對治安這個項目非常的care、重視。所以我在這邊具體建議，畢竟勞動部還是引進移工的主管機關，是不是可以連結警政署、移民署、法務部，讓所有進到臺灣的移工，最起碼法治的觀念要非常正確。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["何部長佩珊：要，OK！"],["劉委員建國：所以我是希望部長可以來統籌，然後成立一個跨部會的平台。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：因為他進來，有必要的一些相關資訊要給他，最起碼法治這一項一定是重中之重，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來加強對新入國移工的法治教育。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。另外又是一個移工的大新聞，請部長看一下，就是電力維修缺工，我們要解禁找移工。這個新聞又引發政府要再擴大移工的疑慮，但是勞動部有馬上解釋，電網建設等配電的相關工程，原本就可以依規定申請移工，從事基層體力工作。但若要從事相關技術工作（爬電桿、修繕電業），必須取得配電、輸電、線路或電纜裝修證照。所以我們建議，勞動部建議台電應優先培訓國人，或延纜並培訓在台僑外生取得相關的證照，以投入配電外線中階技術工作，沒有錯嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，我們鼓勵台電應建議啦！台電應該優先……"],["何部長佩珊：是，要優先這樣處理。"],["劉委員建國：但主要是因為這樣啦！如果照這樣，勞動部的意思就是說，台電的承包商本來就可以申請基本勞力工作項目的移工，但是如果要爬電線桿、接觸配電，這就是不行嘛！因為他必須要有證照對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對，目前不行。"],["劉委員建國：所以就是台電要趕快去培訓嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：因為台電配電外線的作業技術人力老化，是這樣吧？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們還有預備開放輔導這樣子進來的基層體力工，經過了一定程度的年限以後，他有語言溝通的能力，已經是資深移工要成為中階了。我們的移工留才久用本來就有所謂的資深移工變中階的機制，這樣的人我們建議台電可以優先輔導他考照，來從事台電這方面的工作，我們是預備要開放這個部分。"],["劉委員建國：好，因為民進黨執政之後，一直在推韌性的電網，台電現在坦白講，如果以Google的點閱率，還是什麼流量，台電都算是蠻高的吧！包含電費和整個債務的問題種種。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以講到台電，大家都會特別的去關注這件事情，現在台電的人力老化，所以要讓臺灣有韌性健康的電網，基本上這事情不解決就出大問題嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以行政院應該要把他當成是一個非常重要的政策，看怎麼去普及這樣一個能力。我覺得勞動部如果就建議台電自己去培訓這樣的人力，沒關係這個我們等一下再來討論。"],["何部長佩珊：不過委員，其實台電過去都有這樣的培訓機制……"],["劉委員建國：但是在我們勞動部有辦法找到相關的培訓課程嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不，台電自己就有培訓的能力了。"],["劉委員建國：他自己有培訓的能力？"],["何部長佩珊：他們甚至有訓練所，他們早年就都是培訓本國的技職生，建教合作，只是現在本國技職生越來越不願意進入這個領域。"],["劉委員建國：你這麼講，因為我是從移工講到這個地方，如果是這麼說，那等於這事情就是台電自己要去處理，勞動部就是不處理？"],["何部長佩珊：也不是，所以我在幫忙，我在幫忙的是僑外生以及資深移工，中階啦！就是我們所謂可以成為中階技術人力這樣的人。因為這樣的人有一個問題，就是他需要考證照，而且他要懂語文，能夠跟台電員工溝通，要不然就怕出人命啦！所以這其實是一個需要慎重的問題，我們現在是建議台電，先用循中階人力的方式來晉用，就是僑外生以及資深移工。"],["劉委員建國：好，沒關係，部長，我現在就要連結到我們勞動部相關的一些職能培訓課程。我只是很訝異，為什麼沒有把台電這一塊納進來？我覺得有點納悶啦！部長可以看這個臺灣就業通，這是我們在處理的，應該沒有錯嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實我們也有跟台電建議，我們甚至可以來幫忙開班代訓。"],["劉委員建國：OK，你這句話要講啦！你這句話不講，我就會覺得怪怪的啦！但是到現在開幾班了？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，我們也有跟台電提這樣的建議，可是……"],["劉委員建國：台電沒有接受？台電到現在沒有跟你們主動接洽？"],["何部長佩珊：也不是說沒有接受啦！他認為他就是要從國外直接引移工啦！可是這個我們比較……"],["劉委員建國：好，那如果是台電的問題，我就來找台電，好好把這個事情看怎樣溝通處理。"],["何部長佩珊：沒關係委員，那個……"],["劉委員建國：部長，因為我時間到了啦！我後面還有一些事情要講。臺灣就業通是勞動部支持的，這點應該是毋庸置疑，因為下面就有勞動力發展署對不對？所以這個是我們在強化在職訓練的一個網絡。部長，這裡面有寫自助旅行規劃班，這個課程是職訓還是在培養興趣？自助旅行規劃班，然後一個人學費7,900，我們政府要負擔6,320元。然後我助理又去看了很多培訓課程，乍看是職訓，其實比較像是培養興趣班，我不能說這個興趣未來能不能變成一個職能，或許會嘛！然後我們又開了很多課程，像創意手作工藝品班，這好像有點像是社區、農再相關政府部門在支持的，這也滿多的，然後要把它變成一個職訓、職能，就是要進階到一個職能，好像又有一個滿大的區塊，所以我剛剛才會用台電的例子來講。另外，像餐廳業大缺工，這我們都很清楚，但我們在餐廳業相關職能的訓練也是微乎其微，比例也不高。","我為什麼要把這個事情拿出來講，因為昨天的質詢我已經特別提到，怎麼會政府編的預算，然後好像在鼓勵人家做不對的事情，相對的，我們現在一直補助，我們在補助什麼？我跟部長講一下，有幾個課程也是在台灣就業通裡面顯示出來的，部長可以看一下，個人財務規劃─金融商品分析與實務班，學費5,040，我們政府要負擔4,032；金融證券交易實務班，學費8,910，我們政府要負擔7,128；股市投資理財策略實務班，學費8,880，政府要負擔7,104。所以如果照這麼講，勞工不是不能投資股票，投資股票已經是全民運動，讓勞工有正確的訊息，我也覺得有其必要，但是把這個項目放在職能的訓練上，部長覺得合理嗎？所以剛剛開始的前面那幾段話，可能部長再run一下，我就問部長說，勞工看到這些時，勞工要小心，這是不是有誘導的情況，這些老師基本上我們勞發署有test過嗎？有了解過嗎？他們在勞動部辦的職能訓練裡面，來教勞工做這些事情，這些老師教得好就好，萬一教得不好，是要找你勞動部勞發署負責嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個部分……"],["劉委員建國：還是我們在幫這些老師掛保證？這個是屬於職能訓練的一環嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們來檢討，好嗎？因為很多時候是工會他們主動提這樣的案子來，至於適不適合我覺得是不是可以設立一個……"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛有特別提到，勞工要去投資股票基本上若是健康的，我們無庸置疑，對不對？他們很辛苦，在基本工資之外，其他相關的薪資林林總總加起來可能幾萬塊而已，他可以去投資股票，有正確的管道，我覺得這無庸置疑，但是你把它放在職能這一塊，有問題吧？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來檢討，我們請勞發署檢討。"],["劉委員建國：對，台灣就業通的經費最主要來源是就業保險基金還有就業安定基金，即就保跟就安，對不對？我們把這樣的錢放在這個地方去支持這樣的訓練，我是覺得真的會出問題。"],["何部長佩珊：可能也要輔導這些工會他們在提案的時候，包括課程的形式，我們也是要跟他們要有一些……"],["劉委員建國：我要再提醒一下部長，連勞發署自己都有開設相關的課程，署長應該很清楚吧！所以你是要鼓勵這些勞工嗎？勞動部自己要培訓股海明燈？還是要幫你們勞保相關基金來操盤？不然為什麼台灣就業通也有，你們勞發署也有？還是我們要有一個正式提案，相關部會都必須要這樣？因為股票已經是全民運動，投資股票是全民運動，不然勞發署署本部也有，台灣就業通也有，而且我們每班補助的額度都有八成，一班學費七千多塊、八千多塊，我們政府都要負擔七千多，所以我才問你，勞動部是希望台灣就業通來提升勞工的職能，還是……"],["何部長佩珊：我們請勞發署來整個檢討，好嗎？"],["劉委員建國：還是這個職訓是要勞工大殺股海？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們請勞發署長整個來檢討，就是整個，包括署裡……"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！署長你應該要回答幾句吧？你讓部長一直回答我，我覺得你當署長這樣不好吧！我昨天才問你們114年的總預算中，新部長到位後有沒有相關的新興項目來支持這些勞工，沒有！甚至現在預算是還沒審，但有可能會比113年更少，你把這些錢用在就安跟就保來處理這樣的項目，把它當成一個勞工的職能訓練，你們說得過去嗎？我相信部長不曉得這個事情，現在連你署本部也都有！你要等到在野的委員出來……這個多久了……"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，剛剛委員提到的，我們會整個來檢視一下，確實我們有一些課程，其實如果跟他未來職能的發展沒有相關性，是不應該去做這樣的核定，這個我們會來檢討。"],["劉委員建國：工會期待要有這樣的班，基本上我也會支持，你們看看要用什麼樣的項目，是不是用新興的項目去處理？你把它放在職能項目，沒有道理吧！部長要小心吧！我覺得很多事情應該都要再盤整一下。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["劉委員建國：兩個星期內，整個檢討報告提供給我們，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","接下來請林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","接下來請葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","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的嫌疑。這個期末測試是什麼？新兵訓練？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我跟委員報告，我們所有新兵一年期的訓練是分階段，現在馬上要退伍了，進到基地的鑑測，那每一個階段的鑑測，我舉例來講……"],["洪委員孟楷：今年退伍還有兩個月，還會有測試嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們在年底的時候基地還有一個鑑測。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：所以整體鑑測，到目前為止，我跟委員報告，我舉個例子來講，比如說射擊，我們看到的射擊是用輔助裝備的射擊，我也去參觀過，經過這樣子的輔助裝備射擊，我隨便抽，我自己親自去看……"],["洪委員孟楷：你親自去？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對，我隨便抽幾個都是滿靶。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果部長在的話，我也想要詢問部長，他上任之後有沒有去關心這一批一年期的士兵？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：有、有、有，我們部長只要到部隊，都會去關心，尤其是新進人員，尤其是一年期的。"],["洪委員孟楷：等於是說過去義務役沒有那麼長時間，今年的這一批義務役，到目前為止有沒有適應不良的情況？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：到目前為止，當然有少部分，少數啦。那在心理輔導上來講，我們也做了……"],["洪委員孟楷：比例是多少？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：大概不到1%吧，報告委員，有些是適應不良，有環境適應不良，還有生活上適應不良，但是在我們的輔導之下，都可以順利完成他的任務。"],["洪委員孟楷：他敢講嗎？敢講實話嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：可以講實話了。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以講實話？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我還是必須強調，我們在今年大概11月到12月初的時候，基地鑑測到一段時間的時候，我們會開放記者實際去看，我們不灌水，他射擊是什麼就是什麼，他的射擊成績可以做一個實際上的驗證，這個都是眼見為憑，讓記者們親自去看，我們也不用抽，就直接他怎麼樣就是什麼狀況，我想這個是……"],["洪委員孟楷：這也是本席本來接下來想要詢問的，你先把這個答案講出來。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，我們非常重視這個，我們不會灌水。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。本席要講的就是說，既然政策已經要改動了，而且已經是一年期了，國內的青年朋友也花了一年的青春歲月在我們的國軍裡面，義務役從過去到現在，我那個時候是一年……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：三個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：四個月。那沒關係，現在的義務役役期是一年期，那我們當然希望能夠看到訓練的結果跟訓練的狀況，到底是不是符合當初說的能夠怎麼樣提升我們的戰力。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以預計什麼時候會確定公開的日期？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：大概11月底我們會公布，而且我們已經廣邀記者來，也歡迎委員來參觀。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。也會開放給全民？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們再研商，因為射擊場地……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有開放給……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：只有媒體，只有媒體。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，開放給媒體，那他們結訓的部分有沒有開放給家屬？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：有、有、有，結訓會開放給家屬。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。副部長請回。","接下來進詢答的委員是牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155721","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30658e8326accd3b4411de4e273edfded794f31331746fe9cf80f7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"11:58:00 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謝謝那另外部長也利用一點時間在這裡探討就是最近可能社會上紛紛擾擾大家非常關注"},{"start":402.527,"end":412.673,"text":"然後也很疑慮的一個部分在中東地區他持續爆發以哈戰爭的過程當中5月份曾經發生以色列對加薩醫院醫療設施進行攻擊而且還阻止病患他轉院的這個事件這個事件也引起當時正在瑞士日內瓦世衛大會上面超過至少30個國家共同譴責以色列"},{"start":430.043,"end":437.105,"text":"那以色列為什麼會被這些參加世衛大會的國家在會中譴責然後為什麼要攻擊加薩醫院相信他也有做出他的一個理由說明那以哈衝突大概8個月的時間加薩地區的醫院不斷的成為以軍傾角哈馬斯的一個重要目標那以色列的說法他當然是說醫院他裡面有很多地下恐怖組織"},{"start":458.772,"end":462.373,"text":"的成員哈馬斯的藏身處還有是軍火庫所以就這個部分他的作戰原因他雖然是這麼說可是還是受到世界各國的一個譴責那部長我想要請教一下就是我們後備指揮部所屬的單位至少到6月份開始也要求轄區的公廟簽訂了那個"},{"start":483.658,"end":483.918,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":504.023,"end":526.83,"text":"這只是程序演練沒有進行真正的演練可是這個部分如果簽了你平時當然不會有什麼影響可是大家想到的是現在你整體的氛圍還有周邊的一個區域緊張的一個態勢可能就會增加大家的一個負擔跟疑慮那就這個部分因為你簽了在暫時其實它就是國軍的彈藥屯點玉屯點對不對"},{"start":530.326,"end":549.365,"text":"跟委員報告他這個志願的協定不一定是御屯彈藥這樣子的一個志願協定你上面就是寫要御屯彈藥阿你們上面在詢問的時候是御屯彈藥阿我們現在律定的就是說我們要去做一些設施調查跟動員邊管的一些地點阿"},{"start":550.026,"end":550.146,"text":"部長部長"},{"start":568.106,"end":570.889,"text":"因為您是法律人,你剛剛有提到了說就我們國內的法律還有國際法上面我們去遵循,國際法上面其實他很清楚的有提到說,國際法明定的宗教信仰場所不可以作為軍事用途"},{"start":586.583,"end":592.327,"text":"所以如果你一旦去破壞了這樣子的一個結構他國際法保護的效力也會跟著失效所以在對於我們是不是所有的民眾能不能受到國際法保護這個影響是非常嚴重的這個部分我們請我們國防部也好教育部或者其他內政部相關的單位包括你40萬的名利我們都知道其實在發生危難"},{"start":612.401,"end":612.601,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":628.163,"end":631.086,"text":"在發生重大災難災害的時候活動中心通常是收容民眾的地方可是你們又要把彈藥存放在活動中心裡面這樣沒有很大的衝突嗎你如果萬一發生衝突的時候那個一炸"},{"start":654.165,"end":654.305,"text":"謝謝 各位請回應"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：來，部長請。","待會兒部長在馬文君委員詢答結束後要參加總統府軍談，就由代理人出席。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。部長午安。"],["顧部長立雄：是，馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：過去國軍有依國防組織跟兵力結構調整的政策，就是依照營區整併及三軍共住的原則討論過，沒有運用計畫的營地列為空置營地來管理維護。還有一個部分，就是老舊眷村拆除騰空以後，改列為空置眷地維管的部分，相關的空置營眷地曾經高達一萬多筆，而且面積達到了一千多公頃，其實有很多的單位都在覬覦國防部這些相關的土地，包括陳前總統在89年的時候都有視導過國防部，提出三個期許和三安政策。部長，你知道什麼是三安政策嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，所謂的……"],["顧部長立雄：是不是請業管的……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，不用，因為時間的關係。陳前總統之前提到的三安政策，就是讓部隊安全、軍人安家、軍眷安心，目前我們國軍還在推動嗎？"],["陳局長育琳：委員好，我是政戰局局長……"],["馬委員文君：說有沒有就好。"],["陳局長育琳：是。持續都在推動中。"],["馬委員文君：都在推動，可是我們看到媒體報導，現在已經10月了，在今年4月之前，因為工作壓力或個人困境選擇走上絕路，已經有16名職業軍人試圖自傷，其中有13個不治。國防部在2016年將零自傷列為重大的施政目標，可是自傷案件卻是逐年攀升。國軍長期在推動的這個部分，我們應該要怎麼樣來檢討？因為首先三安中的部隊安全我們可能就沒有好好做到，而且現在已經10月了，我剛剛講的是4月的數據資料。","另外就是國軍在114年的預算員額大概是16萬749人，已經住進軍人職務宿舍的只有七千多戶，在住用率上面，高達99.69%，就是我們所有提供出來的幾乎都占滿了，可是具有職務官舍的軍人卻只占軍人數的4.7%，所以其實供需是差非常多的，而且這4.7%大部分都是以軍官和資深的士官為主，所以持續在等候補的這些等待的人員高達四千多人以上，非常多人在排。部長，我們剛剛提到，要在募兵上面有更好的成效，為什麼我們政府要推新青安？為什麼要推社會住宅？其實有一個安定的家，我想這是非常重要的，像部長，其實以你的資歷還有你的資產，要購屋我想輕而易舉，可是目前的房價真的非常貴，所以官兵弟兄如果要安置家人，安心工作，真的是非常的辛苦，所以本席辦公室也常常接到軍人陳情請求調動，在我們的陳情案件比例上面是非常高的，就是他想要調回自己的老家或自己的故鄉，因為父母、子女、老婆、先生都在那裡，在陳情調動比例這麼高的情況之下，顯見在這個部分的需求。過去本席也曾經建議過，其實我們應該運用現有的這些資產土地，去建造更多像這樣子的營舍、眷舍等等，可以讓他們更安心，而且可以讓家人共同居住，可以順便照顧老的、小的，我想這個對整個社會都有正向的幫助。所以在這個部分，我們是不是應該要檢討適宜的地點來興建這些職務宿舍？部長怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：政策上是支持委員的講法，細節上稍微簡要說明一下。"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，關於職務宿舍，我們會依照委員的指導，針對這種生活機能好的部分，我們會全力來爭取蓋職務宿舍。以上報告。"],["馬委員文君：好，我們剛剛提到的，你們明明有土地，我們的營產基金其實也都還有預算，心安專案計畫在116年就要結束了，我們希望可以儘速去通盤的檢討。美軍可以成為世界戰力強的部隊，除了武器精良、薪水很高以外，很重要的就是福利非常好，他們的福利林林總總加起來，總共大概有140項。尤其美軍的軍士官終其一生都是有職務官舍的，如果住在營外，有房租補貼，尤其是有家眷子女的，還會再往上加，所以在營區內也好，或者營區外也好，或者是他們一生受到的照顧，都面面俱到。剛剛也提到要去通盤的檢討，在這裡我們還是再次強調，國防部應該照顧我們國軍弟兄，尤其是在現在我們募兵碰到這麼多困難的情況之下，怎麼樣讓我們軍人可以有更好的福利跟照顧，讓他們無後顧之憂？興建職務官舍，我想其實是一個還不錯的誘因，因為我們有地、有錢、有需求，現在至少有四千人排著在等，所以就看我們有沒有心。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：就這個部分，剛剛已經提到說要檢討，在這個部分，是不是在近期可以提出書面的說明報告？"],["顧部長立雄：應該可以吧？"],["林局長文祥：在兩週之內跟委員來做一個報告。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。","另外，部長，也利用一點時間在這裡探討最近社會上紛紛擾擾，大家非常關注，引起很多疑慮的一個問題。在中東地區持續爆發以哈戰爭，5月份曾經發生以色列對加薩醫院、醫療設施進行攻擊的事件，而且還阻止病患轉院，這個事件也引起當時正在瑞士日內瓦開會的世衛大會上面超過至少30個國家共同譴責以色列。以色列為什麼會被這些參加世衛大會的國家在會中譴責？為什麼要攻擊加薩醫院？相信它也有做出它的理由說明。以哈衝突大概8個月的時間，加薩地區的醫院不斷地成為以軍清剿哈馬斯的重要目標，根據以色列的說法，它當然是說醫院裡面有很多地下恐怖組織哈馬斯成員的藏身處或軍火庫，所以這個部分就是它的作戰原因，它雖然這麼說，可是還是受到世界各國的譴責。","部長，我想要請教一下，我們後備指揮部所屬的單位至少從6月份開始，也要求轄區的宮廟簽訂彈藥預屯點的支援協定，這也引起民眾普遍的擔憂，一來，彈藥就在你的住家旁邊，二來，要是發生戰爭的時候，可能遭受池魚之殃。在這個部分，後備指揮部雖然有澄清只是提升後勤資源的韌性，這只是程序演練，沒有進行真正的演練。這個部分如果簽了，平時當然不會有什麼影響，可是大家想到的是，現在整體的氛圍還有周邊區域緊張的態勢，可能就會增加大家的負擔跟疑慮。就這個部分，簽了這個協定，這裡在戰時就是國軍的彈藥預屯點，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個支援的協定不一定是預屯彈藥的支援協定，因為……"],["馬委員文君：上面就是寫要預屯彈藥啊！你們在面對詢問的時候說是預屯彈藥啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在預定的就是要去做一些設施調查跟動員編管的一些地點，這個有相關的處所，我們會符合國內法跟國際法的相關規定，至於實際上是不是真的會到戰時的時候，我們會有各種不同的部署，不會說跟……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為您是法律人，您剛剛有提到，就我們國內的法律及國際法，我們去遵循。國際法上面很清楚地提到，宗教信仰場所不可以做為軍事用途，一旦破壞了這樣子的結構，國際法保護的效力也會跟著失效，所以對於所有的民眾能不能受到國際法的保護，這個影響是非常嚴重的。這個部分，我們請國防部也好，教育部、內政部或其他相關的單位也好，包括40萬的民力，我們都知道，其實在發生危難或國家有需要的時候，人人有責，可是你不是用這樣子的方式隨便湊在一起。","剛剛我舉的那個例子，除了宮廟以外，還有活動中心、公園、學校，甚至還有婚紗會館，你們都有去做這樣的詢問，而且去請人家簽。就這個部分我要在這裡提醒，比如說，在發生重大災難、災害的時候，活動中心通常是收容民眾的地方，可是你們又要把彈藥屯放在活動中心裡面，這樣沒有很大的衝突嗎？萬一發生衝突的時候，那個一炸，不管是彈藥也好，人也好，全部大量集中在那裡。我們到底是怎麼樣去做規劃、分配、計劃的？這個部分請國防部再做通盤的檢討，而且讓我們全體的民眾都知道，溫水煮青蛙不是只針對外在的這些包圍或者外在的力量，而是包括我們自己給所有的民眾什麼樣子的訊息，我覺得這個也是溫水煮青蛙。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，各位請回。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以提供一個報告？"],["主席：我會規定他兩個禮拜或一個月。"],["陳次長道輝：兩個禮拜之內。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員。","我們現在進行換場，由柏鴻輝副部長代表國防部長繼續接受詢答。我們在開會時多次宣告今天有軍談，所以我們循例就准假。","接下來進行詢答的委員是張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員不在。","柏副部長有進入狀況了。本席再宣告一次，我們今天會議一開始已經宣告今天禮拜四總統府有軍談，所以我們循例禮拜四國防部長都會請假，參與軍談會議的有副總長執行官、全動署、情次室、作次室，也都有指派代理人繼續接受詢答。","好，接下來進行詢答的委員是洪孟楷委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065bdafe1f21068d75960efc051a48f2135f31331746fe9cf80306605202daef2345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:03:02 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為什麼我們的公糧買一買怎麼變成飼料米呢"},{"start":48.854,"end":71.213,"text":"有沒有覺得有點奇怪公糧真的會變成飼料米阿是不是如果量過多的時候他保存期限以後就變成飼料米公糧有時候會超過民糧的價格對不對結果呢在2013年發生我們屏東他低價買入市面的價格買入道股找人頭混充公糧出售後來被判刑啦好就是套利"},{"start":72.355,"end":81.643,"text":"為什麼?因為我們公糧過剩會轉為飼料米,你說的嘛對不對?那因為什麼原因會造成公糧過剩?收購價格嘛,是不是這樣?"},{"start":82.697,"end":111.975,"text":"所以收購價格會造成兩個問題一個是供過於求必須打入飼料米造成有弊端發生第二個公糧收購價格太高會讓有些人怎麼樣去套利是不是這樣子好我們來看一下前一張馬英九時期呢他調高公糧價格之後民糧的價格下跌了公糧高民糧價格低是不是會套利有可能嘛好往下看所以呢目前馬英九時期他調高了3元面積增加了多少"},{"start":112.878,"end":134.205,"text":"大約3萬公頃3萬多公頃那如果我們現在調高到8塊錢有可能會增加到28萬公頃預算需要146億是不是這樣是是沒錯嗎好往下看好那我請問一下國內的農民單一作物最大面積的是什麼是不是稻米稻米是單一作物最大農民是不是都種稻當然不是嘛對那稻農占全體農民比例多少"},{"start":135.66,"end":164.091,"text":"道農現在是22萬有那麼多大概五分之一五分之一好那這五分之一的道農當中可以繳公糧的有多少大概一半沒有一半啦我算一算可以繳的不到35%啦喔你們要全部的是不是對全部要大概三成左右三成五嘛對不對所以說我們對農民的照顧花那麼多的預算投入在公糧收購調過頭了會有弊端發生好往下看"},{"start":164.707,"end":180.087,"text":"那我們來看一下那可以繳公糧的農民資格有很多嗎我們看一下這麼多這麼多這麼多是不是這樣在我屏東的農民有種稻的多數不能繳公糧那他們期待什麼政府照顧他們期待政府對他們建做的銅豆"},{"start":180.828,"end":197.41,"text":"甚至有些是種香蕉的要補助要支持農業部有沒有照顧這些不是繳公糧的農民不管他是不是盜農有沒有要支持我們還是用另外的方式去支持我們所有產業的農民這是我們的責任所以這次山河颱風農損將近4億"},{"start":199.472,"end":201.373,"text":"我跟委員報告其實昨天我們也在開會還沒有定論就是針對"},{"start":220.057,"end":221.598,"text":"如果是147億我們來看看農業部147億可以怎麼用農天水利變50億"},{"start":246.681,"end":251.747,"text":"我看每一項他的優先順位都不亞於去支持一個有限的可以繳公糧的稻農的稻谷收購你同不同意"},{"start":264.816,"end":284.721,"text":"我想我們也是這樣的一個想法去支持所有的農民是的所以我覺得萬事莫如舊災疾這是農作天然災保險覆蓋率低嘛所以我希望我希望你們接下來的施政重點我當然知道每個委員有各自的重點但是我這樣講完很清楚我們政府照顧農民對不對"},{"start":286.361,"end":311.702,"text":"這是我們的責任是 農民不是只有稻農對不對是 稻農不是全部都可以繳公糧而且繳公糧那是少數對不對對所以我們這麼多147的資源是把優先來照顧這些需要幫助的農民同意同意好往下看所以結合是我們農業災害的天然保險的扣抵強制險之外到113年的7月覆蓋率只有17%怎麼樣提高怎麼改善"},{"start":313.744,"end":326.204,"text":"我想整個農業的保險扣掉強制性流量的時期左右那一個非常重要的就是它產量的一個基準的依據所以我已經要求我們的農金屬做全面的一個檢討"},{"start":328.052,"end":356.839,"text":"我不要說隨便開一個保單然後保護只有一兩個而已所以我希望說他真正的能夠降低農民的經營的風險我們以這個目標很好所以請研議最後的結論請研議提升不含強制性的農作物天然災害保險提升他的整理覆蓋的方案一個月提書面報告可以嗎可以我們可以提出來那請這個書面報告請你們的農金署的署長跟你們新任的農業金庫的董事長和董經理我們找個時間一起談一談來找我可以嗎可以可以謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":835,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時3分）主席，在場委員先進、列席的政府機關長官、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請農業部陳部長和農糧署姚署長。"],["主席：請陳部長和署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，署長好。公糧收購調過頭會招致弊端，百億預算照顧農民，應該農損優先。部長，向你介紹兩個新聞，就是官商勾結盜賣公糧，餵豬的飼料米流入營養午餐，這是2009年發生的；還有用劣質米換公糧，農會侵占千噸公糧。為什麼？我們的公糧買來之後，怎麼會變成飼料米呢？有沒有覺得有點奇怪？公糧真的會變成飼料米啊！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：如果數量過多，保存期限過了以後就會變成飼料米。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！大部分都會變成飼料米。公糧有時候會超過民糧的價格，對不對？2013年發生在屏東，他低價以市面價格買入稻穀，找人頭混充公糧出售，後來被判刑啦！這就是套利。為什麼？因為我們公糧過剩會轉為飼料米，這是你說的嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼原因會造成公糧過剩？因為收購價格的關係，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以收購價格會造成兩個問題，一個是供過於求，所以必須打入飼料米，造成有弊端發生。第二個，公糧收購價格太高會讓有些人去套利，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，馬英九時期調高公糧價格之後民糧的價格下跌了，公糧高、民糧價格低，是不是會套利？有可能嘛！馬英九時期調高3元，面積增加多少？"],["陳部長駿季：大概3萬公頃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果我們現在調高8元，有可能會增加到28萬公頃，需要146億元預算，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒錯嘛！請問一下，國內農民種植單一作物最大面積，是什麼？是不是稻米？"],["陳部長駿季：稻米是單一作物最大面積。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農民是不是都種稻？當然不是嘛！稻農占全體農民多少比例？"],["陳部長駿季：稻農現在是22萬人，大概五分之一。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有那麼多？好，這五分之一的稻農當中，可以繳公糧的有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：大概一半。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有一半啦！本席算一算，可以繳的不到35%啦！"],["陳部長駿季：你是說全部，是不是？"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["陳部長駿季：對，全部大概是三成左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：三成五嘛！對不對？所以我們為了照顧農民，花那麼多預算投入公糧收購，價格調過頭就會有弊端發生。可以繳公糧的農民很多嗎？我們看一下，有這麼多，是不是這樣？在我們屏東，種稻的農民多數不能繳公糧，所以他們期待政府怎麼照顧？他們期待政府對他們間作的紅豆，甚至有些是種香蕉，希望政府能夠補助、支持。農業部有沒有照顧這些不是繳公糧的農民？不管他是不是稻農，有沒有支持？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是用另外的方式去支持所有產業的農民，這是我們的責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。這次山陀兒颱風的農損將近4億元，屏東占了六成，是最傷的，其中最嚴重的就是香蕉。上次本席還問你，因為凱米颱風受損申請救助，這次可以再申請嗎？你說你們要考慮調整一下，包括多年期、長年期的作物，你們也要考慮。有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：修訂的怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：其實昨天我們也在開會，但是還沒有定論。就是針對跨年的、多年期的作物，現在是採曆年制，我們未來會考慮以產期為制度，然後再加一些但書，如果跨年遇到一些特殊情況可以再給予救助，這個部分我們還會再做進一步的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啦！像冬蕉和夏蕉就不同了。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果是147億元，我們來看看農業部這147億元可以怎麼運用。農田水利編列50億元，治山防災編列45億元，冷鏈物流明年要再加16億元，防範非洲豬瘟5億，還有撥補農發基金29億元，以及農業用電差價補貼24億元。本席看了，每一項的優先順位都不亞於支持有限的、可以繳公糧的稻穀收購啦！你同不同意？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也是以這樣的想法去支持所有農民。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，是的。本席覺得萬事莫如救災急，因為農作天然災害保險覆蓋率偏低嘛！所以本席希望你們接下來的施政重點在這個部分，本席當然知道每個委員有各自的重點，但是本席這樣說完之後，事情就很清楚了，政府要照顧農民，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這是我們的責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但農民不是只有稻農，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：稻農不是全部都可以繳公糧，而且繳公糧的是少數，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這147億元的資源，是不是應該優先照顧這些需要幫助的農民？"],["陳部長駿季：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以結論，農業災害的天然保險扣抵，除了強制險之外，到113年7月覆蓋率只有17%，怎麼提高？怎麼改善？"],["陳部長駿季：整個農業的保險，扣掉強制性的部分大概是17%左右，其中有一個非常重要的因素，就是以它的產量基準為依據，所以我已經要求農金署全面檢討，不要隨便開設一個保單，保戶只有一、兩個而已，我希望它能真正降低農民的經營風險，我們是以這個為目標。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農金署嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。所以最後的結論，請研議不含強制性的農作物天然災害保險方案，提升整體覆蓋率，一個月內提書面報告，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我們可以提出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：關於這份書面報告，農金署署長、新任的農業金庫董事長和總經理，我們找個時間一起談一談，請你們來找我，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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的我們先處理不要再去溝通因為溝通可能一溝通又是每一條的溝通可能有好幾個月所以有共識的我們就先修先去處理完了以後送行政院那這個時候我相信會比較有共識啦能夠盡快的在這個會期那如果按照這樣的話這個重複食品安全管理法"},{"start":259.594,"end":282.276,"text":"對,我們也是如期我們的當初的一個承諾就是會做這樣子。我問你就是說那現在動保法遇到修法上面會比較大的困難點在哪裡?動保法是不是?動保法其實比較有一點點的爭議的就是我們賦予動保檢查人員的一個就是必要的時候能夠進到私領域的這個部分。"},{"start":282.856,"end":305.082,"text":"那有一些外界的聲音就會認為就是說他已經被准司法的這種警察的一個權利了那在我們部裡面的這個修正法案裡面他是可以進去的對私領域的部分但是我們也不是亂闖民宅啦就是我們還是會根據特別是有一些比較比較比較違法的這種誓言或什麼的時候我們"},{"start":305.922,"end":328.51,"text":"以前都是在門口他不開門我們也進不去一定要找警察嘛那現在其實我們跟警察有很好的合作那我們也希望說能夠讓這個法律通過以後然後相對的針對這些動保警察人員能夠在某個條件之下能夠進到私領域的話那對於以後的這種稽查非法的他是動保警察嗎"},{"start":329.15,"end":341.395,"text":"他不是動保檢查,他是動保檢查員,所以他只是去查核而已,而不是去執行所謂的司法。對,我說有一些情況之下能夠進去,這樣的話對於我們的稽查的效率會比較高一點。"},{"start":348.929,"end":368.674,"text":"這個我們還在透過協商,那從法治的角度,就是他不會去干涉到司法警察的原來的權限但是我想我們還會跟外界做持續的溝通,因為這個牽涉到所謂的人權的問題所以我們會盡最大的努力去做溝通這就是當然是人權跟動物權,橫頻的一個問題"},{"start":371.115,"end":371.235,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":388.438,"end":416.383,"text":"這個修法就會遇到這個難題那我也希望說在這部分的話看你們怎麼去做處理在某些條件之下這個我想我們會有一些前提的設計因為我看你們的修正條文裡面是有把這一部分擺進去基本上我是支持的那比較重要的是強化事主的責任我覺得這個非常重要現在很多寵物本身特別是寵物的部分會變成流浪犬的部分就是事主本身的一個責任"},{"start":417.343,"end":432.335,"text":"我相信強化事主責任然後把寵物做分級管理的時候讓他們知道什麼動物可以養什麼動物不可以養不是亂養了以後就做棄養的動作這個部分我想如果能夠順利通過的話我相信對我們的整個動物的保護會更上一層樓"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":774,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時55分）謝謝主席，我們請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。本席是比較關心動保法的修正，因為今年5月我在質詢的時候，我就說這個動保法的修正案預告已經一年了，希望我們早一點把動保法送到立法院來審議。然後在今年6月總質詢的時候，我也問了行政院長，當時您站在院長的旁邊，我也說希望趕快把動保法送到立法院來審議。當時您是比較持肯定的態度，就說今年會送到立法院來審議，這是在6月11日，但是到目前為止，好像農業部都還是在預告。本席有兩個法案，一個是寵物食品安全管理法，這已經付委了，9月12日已經付委，應該是經濟委員會做審查。然後動保法修正案，明天也會排入院會的報告事項，其實除了我之外，還有很多委員都很關心動保法的修正案。","請教一下部長，現在我們的動保法，還在預告修正期嗎？從2023年的4月28日開始預告要修正了，到現在一年半的時間都還在預告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，就是在去年4月28日的時候預告，預告以後我們接收到非常多外界的不同意見……"],["李委員坤城：我知道你們有精鍊嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們有一個原則就是，有共識的我們先納入這次的修法，如果沒有共識的我們先擱著……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，你上次在總質詢時也是這樣回答我。"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在已經送到行政院在審議當中，行政院如果審議通過就會送到立法院來，我們的目標就是年底之前會送到立法院來。"],["李委員坤城：年底之前也沒剩多久，現在已經10月中旬了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在已經送到行政院在做法條的審議了，行政院一旦審議通過以後，我們就會送到立法院來，所以部裡面已經送出去了。"],["李委員坤城：所以你沒有跳票就對了。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：因為那時候問你，你說今年會送到立法院。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在在行政院？"],["陳部長駿季：對，在行政院，我們已經送出去了。"],["李委員坤城：所以今年能夠送來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們希望，也會再跟行政院協調儘快能夠列入優先法案。"],["李委員坤城：至少今年先送過來，雖然說在審預算，當然也不知道有沒有預算可以審，但是你們還是要按照當時的承諾送過來。"],["陳部長駿季：會，謝謝委員的支持。"],["李委員坤城：好，這是動保法，有關寵物食品安全管理法的部分，你們是9月5日開始預告。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員坤城：大概會預告多久？"],["陳部長駿季：預告是60天，因為當初我在立法院承諾的時候，本來我們的寵物食品法是在動保法裡面的一個章節，但是那個章節可能沒有辦法涵蓋到我們想要管理的作為，所以我們後來拉成專法。專法裡面會從它的原料開始到製程，到它後面的上市部分，都有一定的查核跟管制的作為，這樣的話會比較完善。所以我們預告60天以後，我相信也會接到各界不同的意見，所以我們也會針對意見的部分做一些調整，然後再送到行政院。"],["李委員坤城：如果按照時程來講的話，預告60天是兩個月，那這個預告結束已經是11月的事情了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，大概11月多。"],["李委員坤城：然後你們還要再整理，再送到行政院？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們在動保法已經有一個遊戲規則，就是有共識的我們先處理，不要再去溝通，因為可能每一條溝通可能又好幾個月……"],["李委員坤城：所以就永遠送不出來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以有共識的我們就先修，先去處理完了以後送行政院，這個時候我相信會比較有共識，能夠儘快的在這個會期……"],["李委員坤城：如果按照這樣的話，這個寵物食品安全管理法……"],["陳部長駿季：我們也是如期。我們當初的一個承諾，就是會出……"],["李委員坤城：好，那我問你，現在動保法修法遇到比較大的困難點是哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：動保法，是不是？"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：其實動保法比較有爭議的，就是我們賦予動保檢查人員必要時能進入私領域這個部分，有些外界聲音認為這樣會變成有準司法警察的權力，可能身分會不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：在農業部的修正版本中，他是可以進去的？"],["陳部長駿季：對，私領域的部分。但我們也不是亂闖民宅啦！我們還是會根據狀況，特別是針對違法飼養等等，我們以前都是在門口，如果他不開門，我們就進不去。"],["李委員坤城：對，就是進不去啊！"],["陳部長駿季：一定要找警察嘛！其實現在我們和警察合作良好。我們也希望這個法律通過以後，相對的，這些動保檢查人員在某個條件之下能夠進到私領域的話，對於以後稽查非法的部分……"],["李委員坤城：他是動保警察嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：他不是動保警察，他是動保檢查員。"],["李委員坤城：對，他不是動保警察？"],["陳部長駿季：他只是去查核而已，而不是去執行所謂的司法。"],["李委員坤城：但是在某些情況之下，他可以進入私領域。"],["陳部長駿季：對。有些情況能夠進去，這樣我們的稽查效率會比較高一點。"],["李委員坤城：這部分有沒有什麼進度？"],["陳部長駿季：我們還在協商。從法制的角度來說，他不會干涉到司法警察原來的權限，我們會和外界持續溝通。因為這牽涉到所謂的人權問題，所以我們會盡最大的努力去做溝通。"],["李委員坤城：這當然是人權和動物權衡平的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是。"],["李委員坤城：因為過去在本席的選區也發生過「茶茶」的案子，你發現這隻貓在裡面受到虐待，但就是進不去，就算找警察，但是警察也不能進去喔！"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！也是要由檢察官開出搜索票。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以這部分的修法就會遇到這個難題，針對這部分，就看你們怎麼處理啦！"],["陳部長駿季：會限定在某些條件之下啦！我們會有一些前提的設計。"],["李委員坤城：好。本席看你們的修正條文是有把這部分擺進去，基本上本席是支持的。"],["陳部長駿季：比較重要的是強化飼主的責任啦！我覺得這個非常重要，特別是現在很多寵物變成流浪犬，就是飼主的責任，我相信強化飼主責任，把寵物做分級管理，讓他們知道什麼動物可以養，什麼動物不可以養，而不是亂養以後就做棄養的動作，這個部分如果能夠順利通過的話，我相信對動物的保護會更上一層樓。"],["李委員坤城：好啦！本席還是希望行政院趕快送到立法院來，好不好？謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長駿季：是，謝謝。"],["主席：請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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這個我們下一次我們來考量考量好不好這個也沒有提到說一定要馬上見急履急因為有很多你要先跟這個銀行端先溝通好"},{"start":239.473,"end":239.753,"text":"邱俊仁議員"},{"start":261.98,"end":267.624,"text":"那你這個你針對換屋者可以先買後賣嘛一年的期限嘛那決定權是在銀行端對不對"},{"start":278.049,"end":281.913,"text":"一年的時候呢我們就說銀行呢你就是必須要做這樣的一個管制"},{"start":293.286,"end":308.686,"text":"我們如果說做真和協主措施的時候我們會公告而且我們會通知銀行所以我們在專題報告裡面我們的附件這邊Q&A主要的就是要告訴銀行你就是根據這個來辦理"},{"start":310.695,"end":337.973,"text":"對啦,他說銀行得取消寬限期收回貸款本金或貸款成數的差額,對喔,不是,因喔,這為銀行端沒點是完全的叫你的機器來驚喔是,由銀行來決定啦,我們是希望他這樣做啦如果說,啊好啦,我這個,我比較,我比較仁慈一點,我給你一年兩個月,一年三個月,或者給你兩年,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":340.635,"end":358.789,"text":"我想我們如果說是規定一年除非他有特別的一個原因那特別的原因銀行會告訴我們我們如果說我們了解之後覺得就是說他的這個個案是非常特殊的非常特殊的話也許可以延長"},{"start":361.492,"end":384.689,"text":"這個就是說個案有些時候個案是非常複雜的。不是,有些時候那個房子是要用都更為牢,不是那麼簡單說我請你也可以選擇。這個委員我們會考量,我們會考量。這個部分個案也有個案的這個排除性。是是是,個案有個案它的困難性。以簽約的,自然的以簽約的,這個可以排除。"},{"start":385.59,"end":412.504,"text":"那所謂簽約是跟銀行端簽約還是跟建設公司簽約?不,跟建設公司簽約它是另外一塊的簽約那跟銀行的簽約是又跟銀行的簽約它這兩個,不過不是,因為它不是簽約,它就是說只要你的我們的管制措施是這樣子如果說你到時候你"},{"start":415.307,"end":427.841,"text":"你簽訂契約那進來這裡的時候呢跟銀行申請就是一樣的都可以都可以收到我跟這個在920之前919之前我就已經跟這個金正恩簽約了"},{"start":428.962,"end":429.583,"text":"定金也付了。"},{"start":446.436,"end":460.232,"text":"那這個我跟委員報告只要就是說你是第一戶第二戶你進來銀行那就沒有問題如果說你第三戶第四戶第五戶的那些的話那你就要根據你要根據那個定型化契約去走"},{"start":461.311,"end":488.785,"text":"定型化契約因為內政部他有公告一個你買方跟建設公司他簽訂的一個契約如果說雙方這個這個我們在我們的新聞稿裡面我們也有我們也有PO出來啊這是內政部他所管轄的一個範圍這個定型化契約裡面他的約定那那是要規則於誰所以呢也就是說他的契約裡面他就會訂定啊"},{"start":490.734,"end":498.838,"text":"如果說這個部分我把相關的資料我給委員參考我私下我給委員參考對那如果如果說是不是不可規則於雙方的話那這樣的話就要根據這個定型的話契約來走"},{"start":512.421,"end":526.698,"text":"那這個有規定那我們把這個規定送給委員參考就是說我的結論就是說協處跟你的政策這個管制作為你要一併出來這個我們來研究研究好謝謝"},{"start":531.155,"end":541.111,"text":"好,謝謝這位委員。葉延芝、葉延芝、葉延芝委員不在。高金素美、高金素美、高金素美委員不在。好,本席在這裡報。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時52分）謝謝主席，有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：邱委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：總裁早，9月19日理事會召開，作成第七次信用管制措施的決議。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你們協處措施是10月9日才發布，這個方向是正確的，但是你應該跟協處措施一起公告才對，你的協處措施隔了將近20天左右。9月19日作了決議之後，市場或購屋者、需求端或供給端對你們管制的具體內容並不是那麼了解，所以未來有重大決策的時候，應當同步針對協處措施，你們要設想好，要同時公告，例如哪些是排除的，繼承的、換屋者種種，排除條款要一併出來，不然那二十幾天大家問來問去，總裁有什麼看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員講的也沒有錯，協處的措施如果在當時一併提出來，我想那是理想，不過協處措施基本上是銀行在執行的時候，這是比較細節一點的，也就是說我們在做選擇性信用管制的時候，協處措施比較是執行面、比較細節面，所以在管制措施要宣布的當時，我們不會馬上……因為這裡面會涉及到不只是協處措施，還包括很個別的案件，個別的案件就會很多，這都是很細節的。"],["邱委員志偉：最起碼我覺得三大排除族群那時候你們應該設想到。"],["楊總裁金龍：像換屋的話，第一個，上一次我們就已經有換屋的協處措施，除了換屋以外，我們再聽聽有哪些狀況，例如繼承的部分，因為我們在6月以前都沒有把繼承放在裡面，因為那時候我們沒有對有第一戶房子做寬限期的限制，所以以前我們對於繼承就不會考慮這些。但是等到我們第七波下去，這個新設的限制下去時，它就會反應出來。"],["邱委員志偉：你們是政策的制訂者，對於政策下去所受的相關影響應該做事前的評估。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員的建議是對的，不過我總覺得我們的補救措施也不是說很慢，例如我們1個月以後……"],["邱委員志偉：不只是補救措施，你們政策推出來之前，對於所受的影響要有個分析，然後把這些一併公告。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們下一次來考量。"],["邱委員志偉：這也沒有急到要馬上劍及履及，因為有很多要先跟銀行端溝通好，看會產生哪些問題，你也聽聽銀行界的意見，你也問問購屋需求者的想法和有哪些窒礙難行的地方，你沒有想到這些，最後在很多的壓力之下，你們才提出協處措施。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有接受很多的壓力之下，沒有。好，我們來study一下。"],["邱委員志偉：針對換屋者可以先買後賣，有1年的期限嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["邱委員志偉：決定權在銀行端，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果我們做了這樣的決定，1年的時間，銀行就必須要做這樣的管制、做這樣的限制，做這樣的協處措施的時候，我們會公告，而且會通知銀行，所以我們在專題報告裡面，我們的附件Q＆A主要就是要告訴銀行，他們要根據這個來辦理。"],["邱委員志偉：它說銀行得取消寬限期、收回貸款本金或貸款成數的差額，不是「應」喔！銀行端不一定完全照你的指示走。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，由銀行來決定，我們是希望他們這樣做。"],["邱委員志偉：如果我比較仁慈一點，可能給你1年2個月、1年3個月，或者給你2年，這樣可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們如果規定1年，除非它有特別的原因，銀行會告訴我們，我們了解之後覺得這個個案是非常特殊的，也許可以延長，有時候有些個案是非常複雜的。"],["邱委員志偉：有的房子是都更危老的，不是簡單1年可以解決的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會考量。"],["邱委員志偉：這個部分應該也有個案的排除性。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，個案有個案的困難處。"],["邱委員志偉：已簽約的自然人可以排除，所謂簽約是跟銀行端簽約？還是跟建設公司簽約？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟建設公司簽約是另外一塊的簽約，跟銀行的簽約又是跟銀行的簽約，不過……"],["邱委員志偉：你這個排除是？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我們的管制措施是這樣，如果你到時候簽訂契約進來這裡的時候，跟銀行申請就是一樣的，都可以……"],["邱委員志偉：如果在919之前就已經跟建設公司簽約了，定金也付了，貸款的成數縮減之後，他考量到可能無法負擔。"],["楊總裁金龍：只要是第一戶、第二戶，進來銀行就沒有問題，如果是第三戶、第四戶、第五戶，就要根據定型化契約去走，因為內政部也有公告一個買方和建設公司簽訂的契約，這個在我們的新聞稿裡面也有po出來，這是內政部所管轄的範圍，定型化契約裡面的約定。"],["邱委員志偉：那要歸責於誰？"],["楊總裁金龍：契約裡面就會訂定，我再把相關的資料給委員參考。"],["邱委員志偉：因為會造成他貸款的能力下降，那還款……"],["楊總裁金龍：如果不可歸責於雙方的話，就要根據定型化契約來走，這個有規定，我們把這個規定送給委員參考。"],["邱委員志偉：我的結論就是，協處和你的政策、管制作為要一併出來。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們來研究研究，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝志偉委員。","葉元之，葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","高金素梅，高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議作成如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及時答復或請補充資訊，請中央銀行於1週內以書面答復。委員另有要求期限者，從其所定。委員王鴻薇、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢，均已列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請中央銀行以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306591afa8e36a5ab8efde4e273edfded794f31331746fe9cf806469bd687902d0e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:50:39 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有沒有"},{"start":188.666,"end":208.153,"text":"報告委員我先跟委員解釋一下是是就是說我們在第二週做招募的工作的原因你們在第一週就招募了第一週第二週比較多的室內課就做招募那我要跟委員講清楚啊我們有眼線在裡面對上個禮拜委員跟我們講完之後我們召集各軍司令部來有研討過這個問題"},{"start":210.174,"end":236.196,"text":"但是最主要的問題在於說我今天不管第一週或第二週做完招募之後我要有六週的審查包含智力測驗包含到外面他的所有就醫的紀錄你的審查是審查他在入伍之前的事情但他在部隊裡面的實測的訓練專長訓練如何這才是他能不能適應軍旅生活的關鍵不是嗎他如果三天兩夜的戰術訓練都做不到你要招募他嗎因為他第一週就簽了四年了"},{"start":236.556,"end":265.595,"text":"跟委員報告就是說他在第8週起義之前他都可以防衛也就是說在這個過程裡面他覺得他不是因為所以你們意思說我們國軍招募不清只怕他反悔不怕我們反悔嗎他根本體能上不身負荷我們不會把他汰除嗎等到他開始簽下去正式會議才汰除因為你們要達成招募率啊部長怎麼解釋意思應該是說我們審查的期間我們也會你們是審查他入伍之前的外部資料不是審查他再訓期間的表現資料"},{"start":270.877,"end":284.866,"text":"因為他簽了,他如果覺得後來受不了,他才會離開嘛,但是你們要求一個18歲到20歲做這件事情,跟你們部隊要招說這個兵適不適合來當兵,你們有自己的專業判斷,你們的判斷比他更成熟啊"},{"start":285.986,"end":307.012,"text":"這個傢伙適不適合當兵,能不能判斷?應該是說,他們應該是會在第8週確定的時候,他之前應該還是可以決定不留名。你們把第8週的汰除給我看,第8週只要第1週第2週有簽的,除了第8週除了他自願不想幹的,你們有說這個傢伙不適合第8週你們把他汰除的,汰除率給我看。"},{"start":308.51,"end":322.989,"text":"因為你們沒有經過實測你怎麼知道這個簽下去的人適不適合未來當事年了解齁我講的是合道理的部長同不同意所以您剛剛講的是一方面是我們的審查當然你們要審查啦那另外一方面是他你們的太卒率欸他的他"},{"start":323.57,"end":339.081,"text":"他自願不想做了那是他的事情你們要不要留他因為你們現在目標管理每個部隊都有邊縣米的要求他只要招進來他達到目標了他就沒事了接下來這個兵一年兩年三年出了什麼事跟他無關了解嗎下一個"},{"start":342.11,"end":362.543,"text":"好第二個我的那個待遇問題我上次有問過你們新加坡美國跟以色列的待遇為什麼我要說這個因為我們的兵啊志願役的短役期的不會超過10年32歲退伍但是我們的警察跟消防他們可以做到55到57歲退休同樣的起薪我們看下一張"},{"start":363.544,"end":388.038,"text":"我們志願役的二等兵是4萬1警察是5萬2消防是6萬2大概警察已經接近新加坡的水準消防還差美國的13萬很多以色列的10萬很多你要知道同樣的年齡進來他的職涯生涯這麼長你給他這個薪水跟職涯規劃只有10年青春職業運動選手是不是待遇很高為什麼因為他只有10年可以賣"},{"start":389.099,"end":389.38,"text":"最後的結論可不可以對院內"},{"start":407.603,"end":420.542,"text":"結論就是我剛剛也跟林大夫委員提到了,我們現在對於基層的這個……志願役的短役級士官兵一個月內提出順便報告,可以嗎?是好,謝謝好,謝謝鍾佳濱委員,各位請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":590,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時50分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請顧部長、資源規劃司的鄧司長、人事參謀次長室的劉次長和訓練參謀次長室的張次長。"],["主席：請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我剛剛請了三位次長，怎麼跑出來四位？資源規劃司、人事參謀次長和訓練參謀次長。","部長，剛好承接著林岱樺委員的質詢，我在上週也問過您同樣的問題，對不對？就是國軍的人才招募及他們的薪資待遇。我的標題很簡單，招募短役期的志願役士官兵，要知己知彼，讓他知道自己的能耐，你們要知道這個志願役的能耐，然後他的待遇，須衡量他的職業生涯的週期，要能夠比照警消，我現在申論之。好，上次我問的是說，你認為新訓入伍後要到什麼時候才能夠瞭解軍旅生活？我在上週的時候，您說要去檢討。新訓入伍是訓練次長主責的嘛，對不對？次長，你有跟部長報告你們現在新訓的課程內容嗎？有沒有？"],["張次長俊志：報告委員，我們那個新訓八週……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長知不知道？"],["張次長俊志：八週的內容部長都知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長來。我列出來了，上週問你的時候，知道第一週就是個人資料建立，都是在課堂內填表、認識軍法、裝備訓練，統統都是室內課；第二週開始訓練基本體能，開始要跑步，還有手榴彈投擲；第三、四週才有實彈射擊和500公尺障礙；然後五到七週才會有行軍、戰技射擊；第八週才會真正實戰的戰術行軍，才抽籤分發，這樣部長瞭解了？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你認為一個新訓入伍的人員，他什麼時候大概知道自己有沒有能力來承擔軍旅生活？在第一週嗎？在課堂上填表單嗎？還是完成了八週真正三天兩夜戰術訓練，他才知道自己有沒有能力承受軍旅生涯的負荷，你認為呢？哪一天比較好？"],["顧部長立雄：委員上次已經質詢過，是希望在第八週，不過我回去跟他們討論，他們還是認為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得我上週說服了你，但是我覺得你們底下的人又跟你說要反過來了，如果沒有到第八週，你連這個兵適不適合當志願役的短役期士官兵，你都不見得能掌握，他第一週填表說他志願簽四年才當，你要收嗎？汰除率那麼高。我比較過了，如果你們是在這種部隊裡面招募的，達成率超過百分之百，但是汰除率比跟社會青年招募來的汰除率更高，有沒有？"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，我先跟委員解釋，我們在第二週做招募的工作的原因……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在第一週就做招募了。"],["劉次長沛智：第一週、第二週比較多的是在室內課就做招募的，跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，講清楚啊。我們有眼線在裡面。"],["劉次長沛智：對，上個禮拜委員跟我們講完之後，我們召集各軍司令部來，研討過這個問題，但是最主要的問題在於，今天不管是第一週或第二週做完招募之後，要有六週的審查，包含智力測驗，包含到外面他的所有就醫紀錄……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的審查是審查他在入伍之前的事情，但是他在部隊裡面實測的專長訓練如何，這才是他能不能適應軍旅生活的關鍵，不是嗎？他如果三天兩夜的戰術訓練都做不到，你還要招募他嗎？因為他第一週就簽了四年了。"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，他在第八週起役之前都可以反悔，也就是說在這個過程裡面，他覺得不適應……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們的意思是說我們國軍招募，只怕他反悔，不怕我們反悔嗎？他根本體能上不勝負荷，我們也不會把他汰除嗎？等到他開始簽下去，正式服役才汰除，因為你們要達成招募率嘛。部長，怎麼解釋？"],["顧部長立雄：意思應該是說，我們審查的期間，我們也會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是審查他入伍之前的外部資料，不是審查他在訓期間的表現資料，是不是？沒錯嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：在訓練的過程裡面，他隨時可以因為不適應……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為他簽了，他如果覺得後來受不了，他才會離開嘛。但是你們要求一個18歲到20歲的人做這件事情，跟你們部隊要招收這個兵適不適合來當兵，你們有自己的專業判斷，你們的判斷比他更成熟啊。這個傢伙適不適合當兵，能不能判斷？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是說，他們應該是會在第八週確定的時候，他之前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，我直接說，你們把第八週的汰除率給我，只要第一週、第二週有簽的，除了第八週自願不想幹的，你們有說這個傢伙不適合，第八週你們要把他汰除了，汰除率給我看，因為你們沒有經過實測，你怎麼知道這個簽下去的適不適合未來當四年？瞭解嗎？我講的是合道理的，部長，同不同意？"],["顧部長立雄：所以您剛剛講的，一方面是我們的審查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然你們要審查啦！"],["顧部長立雄：另外一方面是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的汰除率耶！"],["顧部長立雄：他自願簽下來，他可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他自願不想做了，那是他的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要不要留他？因為你們現在的目標管理，每個部隊都有編現比的要求，只要招進來、達到目標了，他就沒事了，接下來，這個兵一年、兩年、三年出了什麼事，跟他無關啊。瞭解嗎？","好，第二個是待遇問題，我上次有問過你們新加坡、美國跟以色列的待遇，為什麼我要說這個？因為我們的兵，志願役的、短役期的，不會超過十年，32歲退伍；但是我們的警察跟消防，他們可以做到55到57歲退休。同樣的起薪，志願役的二等兵是四萬一，警察是五萬二，消防是六萬二，警察已經接近新加坡的水準，消防還差美國的十三萬很多，差以色列的十萬很多。你要知道，同樣的年齡進來，他的職涯生涯這麼長，你給他這個薪水，跟職涯規劃只有十年的比，青春啊！職業運動選手是不是待遇很高？為什麼？因為他只有十年可以賣，所以這些短役期的士官兵，他們在基層，他們不會有升遷，他們就是來為國家貢獻他們的青春，因為基層的士官兵，你們不會把他們留到32歲以後，除非他要當士官長，所以你們待遇要不要調整？"],["主席：是不是請摘要回答？時間到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，最後的結論，可不可以一個月內給我？"],["顧部長立雄：結論就是我剛剛跟林岱樺林委員提到的，我們現在對於基層的薪資……"],["鍾委員佳濱：針對志願役的短役期士官兵的待遇，一個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鍾佳濱委員。各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30650ff1136e6ed1603e60efc051a48f2135f31331746fe9cf808c26bf03b111ffd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:49:42 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一個很重要的一個福音要分享給我們這個是委員一直在協助我們爭取的"},{"start":56.167,"end":76.025,"text":"另外一個部分就是這個部分我們是非常肯定的那第二部分要請教就是說農業移工首先是執行單位那我們地方的農會有在跟我們反映就是說現在中央是由農業部輔導師農業人力發展科交給地方農會來執行但是許多地方農會卻抗拒於這件事情"},{"start":76.505,"end":77.606,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是我們也感謝農會的一個協助來執行"},{"start":99.107,"end":125.87,"text":"我們在農會在有意願去處理這個我們會有個專案的講習跟輔導的部分因為外籍移工一定要有管理不能說他不是直接到家庭去的所以我們一定要找到一個中間的一個管理單位以現在農會跟農民的接觸的關係他是一個相對比較好的一個選擇那至於說農會本身如果遇到什麼樣的困難的部分我想我們農業部一定會積極的去協助"},{"start":128.471,"end":151.657,"text":"幾個農會總幹事有向我反映他們是建議說農業移工大部分是從事農糧的工作那是不是可以讓由北中南東四個分署的農糧署來去承擔這個移工的相關的業務這是他們的建議或者是用其他的相關的這個大家農業部來思考一下找其他法人等等來去做這樣子的服務不知道部長你怎麼看這件事"},{"start":152.137,"end":166.387,"text":"我想公部門只能做受理的單位我們不能直接參與移工的管理所以除了農會以外我想我們也會積極的去看看有沒有什麼樣子的一個農民團體對法人的部分合作社長的部分這個東西我想我們會再來研議除了農會以外"},{"start":170.989,"end":194.536,"text":"農業移工的申請資格有很多農民朋友來表達阿里山有很多茶園需要茶工目前申請移工的面積是2公頃以上低於2公頃或中間混有果樹的就不能申請這個農業部有沒有可能把申請面積調降到1公頃或除了茶園面積之外雜糧面積10公頃以外"},{"start":198.057,"end":221.648,"text":"我認為都可以往下調整讓更多年紀大的農民可以申請到這個移工的部分我想整個的一個移工就是你要申請移工的這個面積的一個上限其實我們這幾年來持續的有在滾農檢討下降包括委員所關心的茶葉兩公頃是不是可以下修這個其實我們也列入我們的專案討論裡面特別是要考慮到說"},{"start":222.588,"end":230.452,"text":"謝謝部長 這個很重要那最後就是關於水稻的捲葉蟲的部分那現在是二期到期間嘛那農友是很深受這個捲葉蟲的這個困擾"},{"start":257.388,"end":269.422,"text":"現在農民是朋友是來跟我們反映他說現在是初步啦初估現在的稻葉損害率是20%到70%左右是相當的嚴重所以如果可以的話部長我希望說農業部可以找時間"},{"start":270.563,"end":271.824,"text":"這部分是不是可以請農業部來做簡單的回應?"},{"start":288.188,"end":310.175,"text":"我跟委員報告就是水稻的部分因為它的基本性已經加入農業保險那農業保險不管你什麼原因我們就會只要超過20%我們就會去做一些理賠的部分那你剛才講的捲葉蟲就是野柳鳴的部分它是隨氣流的部分那剛好8月跟10月有颱風"},{"start":312.056,"end":312.376,"text":"好 謝謝是可以理賠的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":747,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時49分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好，農業部從108年試辦開放八百多人的農業外籍移工，到112年6月中旬開放到1.2萬人，目前大概已經有引進八千五百多人，有七成了，預計今年年底就會把這個額度用完。我看部長上次答詢的時候，有說農業部跟勞動部爭取增加8,000人，讓外勞總數可以到2萬人。"],["陳部長駿季：是的，2萬人。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想請問目前爭取的結果如何？"],["陳部長駿季：已經通過了。"],["陳委員冠廷：已經通過了？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：哇！這是一個很重要的福音，要分享給我們……"],["陳部長駿季：這也是委員一直在協助我們爭取的。"],["陳委員冠廷：是，這個部分我們是非常肯定。另外，第二個要請教的是關於農業移工的部分，首先是執行單位，我們地方的農會有跟我們反映，現在中央是由農業部輔導司農業人力發展科，交給地方農會來執行，但是許多地方農會卻抗拒這件事情。他說首先是人力不足的問題，第二是農會不會管理這種移工的部分，所以如果移工逃逸的話，農會還會被罰錢。他們是表達說有點吃力不討好，這個問題你覺得該怎麼樣解決？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員報告，我們也感謝農會的協助執行，農會有意願去處理，我們會有專案的講習跟輔導的部分，因為外籍移工一定要有管理，因為他不是直接到家庭去的，所以我們一定要找到一個中間的管理單位。以現在農會跟農民接觸的關係，它是一個相對比較好的一個選擇，至於說農會本身如果遇到什麼樣的困難，我們農業部一定會積極的去協助。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。幾個農會總幹事有向我反映，他們是建議說農業移工大部分是從事農糧的工作，是不是可以由北、中、南、東四個分署的農糧署，來承擔這個移工的相關業務？這是他們的建議，或者是用其他相關的方式，大家和農業部來思考一下，例如找其他法人等等，去做這樣子的服務，不知道部長怎麼看這件事？"],["陳部長駿季：我想公部門只能做受理的單位，我們不能直接參與移工的管理，所以除了農會以外，我們也會積極的去看看，有沒有什麼樣子的一個農民團體……"],["陳委員冠廷：法人還是用什麼其他的方式，大家來想一下好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，法人、合作社的部分，這個部分我想我們會再來研議，除了農會以外……"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，能不能麻煩大家再想一下？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來就是農業移工的申請資格，這部分有很多農民朋友來表達，他說像我們阿里山有很多茶園，他們需要茶工，但是目前申請移工的面積是2公頃以上，低於2公頃或者是中間混有果樹的就不能申請。這個部分農業部有沒有可能把申請面積調降到1公頃，或者是除了茶園面積之外，雜糧面積要10公頃以上，果樹面積要2公頃以上，我認為都可以往下調整，讓更多年紀大的農民可以申請到移工。"],["陳部長駿季：我想關於申請農業移工的面積上限，其實我們這幾年來持續的有在滾動檢討下降，包括委員所關心的茶葉2公頃是不是可以下修，這個其實我們也列入專案討論裡面，特別是要考慮到他的茶葉是粗放的，還是需要比較密集工作的部分，這個可能要做區別，包括雜糧的部分，所以我們會納入滾動檢討，我也要求我們的同仁針對這個面積的部分，一定要定期的滾動檢討，而不是委員要求的我們才來處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，謝謝部長，這個很重要。最後就是關於水稻的捲葉蟲部分，現在是二期稻作期間，農友深受捲葉蟲的困擾，因為山陀兒颱風來，所以他們錯失了5天的噴藥期。現在農民朋友來跟我們反映，他說初估現在的稻葉損害率是20%到70%左右，是相當的嚴重，所以如果可以的話，我希望農業部可以找時間來，包含我們嘉義縣民雄鄉，主要的這個地方來看一下。第二個部分，我們也希望有機會農業部可以公告嘉義縣民雄鄉成為專案的紓困貸款或現金救助地區。這部分是不是可以請農業部來做簡單的回應？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，關於水稻的部分，因為它的基本型已經加入農業保險，農業保險不管你什麼原因，只要超過20%，我們就會去做一些理賠的部分。你剛才講的捲葉蟲就是那個瘤野螟的部分，它是屬於氣流的部分，剛好8月跟10月有颱風，所以已經錯過了防治的最有效期間，因此陸陸續續會發生一些災情。這個部分我們除了改良場會來協助以外，你所關心的有關於保險的部分，我回去再看看，應該是因為這些蟲產量降低，農業保險的部分應該也可以理賠，因為基本型保險已經納入這邊了，是可以理賠的。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，是可以理賠的。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們中午不休息，延長到會議結束。現在請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe委員：我希望你針對通膨、碳費和房貸緊縮的政策，因為我們很關心，但是我們也發現過去你的表現、預測也很精準，對自己也很有信心，我希望你對於這些抗通膨、碳費、房貸緊縮政策，再做一下對民生的影響預測跟因應的措施，希望能夠在1個月內提供本席，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後我想了解一個小問題，因為上個會期我們在談電子支付的時候，我有一個訴求，就是發現我們全臺最大、最多人用的LINE Pay沒有加入，它目前的整合進度如何？我希望你可以給我一個回應。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我是不是先請財金公司回答這個問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["林董事長國良：委員好，跟委員報告，因為LINE Pay算是第三方支付，它不是電子支付機構，所以根據金管會的電子支付管理條例來看，它是不能加到這個平臺上面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：之前是這個原因。"],["林董事長國良：所以LINEPay它可能需要去申請變成電子支付機構，才可以加到這個平臺上面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：目前進度如何？"],["林董事長國良：LINEPay申請電子支付機構的部分，我們沒有確切的資料，因為這是它們公司的政策。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我特別要講的是，從消費者的角度，所以那時候才會有這樣的質詢，我還是希望一併1個月內給我一個精進和辦理方式的報告，我想了解。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們來了解，寫一個報告給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝總裁，也謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麗華委員。","接著請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065f7098b2ed37d2657bc7d127954dabfa196f892b6d7a78c0a048316b8811dac4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:43:50 - 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"end":217.657,"text":"移工又進不來,外面薪資誘因提高,導致失聯誘因增加。還有委員,再加上剛剛羅委員也有講到集團化、幫派化的問題,甚至是同鄉"},{"start":218.979,"end":227.884,"text":"的誘導也是一個很重要的失聯因素就是我們隨著移工人數的增加他的同儕同鄉在這裡越來越多事實上每一個人過來這一邊都希望合法對合法工作沒有人希望是非法"},{"start":235.308,"end":263.259,"text":"但是我們的薪資你也說嘛不符合他們的生活他們要照顧他自己這裡的生活他還要負擔家裡的生活所以沒有辦法讓他們是可以負擔所以我們是這個才是重大的問題如果是我們在合法的工作我可以在這邊生活又可以幫助到我的家人改善我來臺灣我就不會去逃跑嘛但是第二個我想要請教一下我們政府"},{"start":264.179,"end":273.108,"text":"有善的就是要個流財的方案但是不友善對於移工就是要怎麼樣變成身為中階基層的條件所以這個我們希望我們勞動部這邊我們要有這個法案對移工有幫助"},{"start":281.375,"end":298.169,"text":"但是我們要限於就是老闆簽同意或者其他的條件他才可以留在臺灣這樣子的法案對移工來說看得到吃不到了啊這樣是不是就騙大家了對吧我想要留下來但是"},{"start":299.15,"end":314.407,"text":"我看到政府有這個法案我可以去做、去努力、去目標但是到最後是白人的決定不是我的決定這個的話我們希望說要有詳細的還有條件讓大家可以留下來的最後一個因為時間的關係因為我們現在的移工在臺灣"},{"start":321.554,"end":342.426,"text":"以我們要一個支持的管道系統來幫忙但是為什麼有很多移工來台灣就是生亡後沒有管道讓他可以申訴變成他們要跨國的求救泰國的有的就是埋屍了有的被"},{"start":343.286,"end":364.108,"text":"被車引押死亡到現在是泰國的辦事處辦事處來求救我們不是他們的家人而已還有就是越南的移工被打了9槍死亡也是要跨國的求救這樣的管道在哪裡我們的支持的管道在哪裡"},{"start":365.309,"end":387.264,"text":"這個才是我們要關鍵要去說我們今天談的就是移工的支持的社會系統怎麼樣去協助他們但是我們來到臺灣工作生命的安全這個很重要所以希望我們勞動部這邊要有是真正能幫助的系統才是解決"},{"start":388.204,"end":398.557,"text":"移工在臺灣的工作也解決企業缺工的問題這個才是我們希望勞動部要去執行的好,謝謝委員,謝謝謝謝麥玉珍委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":885,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時37分）主席好，有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好，我要請教一下我們的1955專線的功能，還有對我們移工的幫助，你覺得效率在哪裡？不要說只是數據，你覺得對他們的幫助在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：其實1955就是我們對移工很重要的社會支持系統，就是我們透過幫他、聆聽他的問題，然後透過專人輔導，希望能夠幫助移工減緩在這裡社會適應上的各種狀況，我想這方面應該是有正面的。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，大家都正面才要設這個專線，沒有正面就不用設了，但是實質的幫助就是有限，不是只有數據。我的意思是，不是只有數據說有多少人在求救，如果這個專線有效，又可以幫忙的話，為什麼失聯移工那麼多？我們如何解決失聯移工，還有如何去幫助他們？這個部分是我們比較關心的。因為每一個人來臺灣工作，都希望穩定工作，不想要失聯，但是為什麼會造成失聯？我們有輔導專線，也有勞動部，各個縣市勞工局都有協助，為什麼他們還是溝通不良？為什麼還是沒辦法求救，才會選擇離開自己的工作崗位？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，1955的功能跟失聯移工可能是兩個議題。"],["麥委員玉珍：是啊！當然是兩個議題，因為有1955保護、諮詢、幫助，所以他就跟雇主可以溝通，就不會導致他離開嘛！對不對？所以說他離開了，我們要怎麼樣發揮1955的功能，要幫助到他才不會離開。但是他們都已經離開了，這樣導致他們離開的原因是什麼？你們有沒有去研議要解決？讓大家來這邊工作安心嘛！有求助的管道、有溝通的管道，但是他的效率不好，才會導致大家逃跑，才失聯對不對？我的目的是要問這個。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，失聯移工的原因有很多，可能經濟因素是裡面最主要的一項，就是他認為他賺的錢不夠，然後他覺得這裡的工作，不如他想的賺那麼多錢，這好像是一個最主要的原因之一。"],["麥委員玉珍：就是他們想的跟實際上的生活有沒有達到，這個不是……"],["何部長佩珊：尤其您看在疫情期間，失聯的比例特別高，就是因為外面的需求大，移工又進不來，那外面薪資的誘因就提高，就會導致失聯的誘因增加。還有再加上剛剛羅委員也有講到集團化、幫派化的問題，甚至是同鄉的誘導，也是一個很重要的失聯因素，就是我們隨著移工人數的增加，他的同儕、同鄉在這裡越聚越多。"],["麥委員玉珍：事實上每一個人過來這邊，都希望合法啦！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：合法工作啦！沒有人希望是非法，但是我們的薪資，你也說不符合他們的生活，他們要照顧自己這裡的生活，還要負擔家裡的生活，所以沒有辦法讓他們可以負擔，這個才是重大的問題。如果我們合法的工作，讓我可以在這邊生活，又可以幫助到我的家人改善，我來臺灣就不會逃跑嘛！","第二個我想要請教一下，我們政府友善的留才方案，但是對於移工不友善，就是要怎麼樣變成中階基層的條件。我希望勞動部這邊，要有對移工有幫助的法案，但是我們要限於老闆簽同意或者其他的條件，他才可以留在臺灣。這樣子的法案對移工來說，看得到吃不到啦！這樣是不是只是騙大家而已？我想要留下來，我看到政府有這個法案，我可以去努力達到目標，但是到最後是別人來決定，不是我決定，這個我們希望要有詳細的，讓大家可以留下來的條件。","因為時間的關係，最後一個問題是，現在的移工在臺灣，需要一個支持的管道和系統來幫忙，為什麼有很多移工來臺灣，身亡後卻沒有管道讓他可以申訴，變成他們要跨國求救。泰國有的就是被埋屍了，有的被車輾壓死亡，到現在是泰國的辦事處來找我們求救，不是他們的家人而已。還有越南的移工被打了9槍死亡，也是要跨國的求救，這樣的管道在哪裡？我們支持的管道在哪裡？這才是關鍵。","我們今天談的就是移工支持的社會系統，怎麼樣去協助他們？但是他們來到臺灣工作，生命的安全很重要，所以希望勞動部這邊要有真正能幫助的系統，才是解決移工在臺灣工作，也解決企業缺工的問題，這才是我們希望勞動部要去執行的。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員發言。接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30659e1208f25d0c7916de4e273edfded79496f892b6d7a78c0a0911e5930497b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"11:44:14 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請再要回答你要只要給我講個時間就好部長 半年嗎 三個月嗎 你總是要個定案啊"},{"start":348.642,"end":370.797,"text":"不用 我想我們在一個月以內我會提出一些方案出來好 這個非常好我想所有有意從軍的所有的子弟就會看到說我一個月後就很明確知道說我從軍我的待遇是如何以及配合我們相關像昭緯所提的我們未來的一些教育能夠符合社會的趨勢好 就一個月我們就來期待 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所有的動農那我剛才也說過了就是"},{"start":388.593,"end":414.38,"text":"公糧的收購它跟現在跟我們的集團產區的一個民糧的收購是並行的那我們也不意味就是說我以後一輩子都不調公糧價格了其實我們會在看整個政策的實施過程中去做適度的檢視跟做適度的調整那在現階段我們希望說委員能夠支持我們能夠針對這個一級二轉三加三的這個方案能夠持續的去推動"},{"start":415.08,"end":443.607,"text":"那後續我們去看推動的這個成效跟他的產地價格的部分我們再來做一些檢討那個部長啊你提你今天的報告如類的非常詳細啦尤其今天一直在調123那個叫什麼方案一級二轉三加三這個方案你提了在這邊也提了很多次了我在這個這個電視上也看了聽了"},{"start":445.984,"end":446.084,"text":"我...我..."},{"start":474.881,"end":487.891,"text":"就是要依立法院的決議來執行第二個你原來要做的你現在要打算做的繼續做可以同時進行"},{"start":490.674,"end":510.121,"text":"我跟委員報告就是公糧提高5塊跟我們現在推的政策上本質上我也有一些矛盾特別是在我們在一級二轉裡面特別是二轉的部分我們希望說一些倒座同樣是農民的收益我希望說他能夠轉成漢座以後得到我們的那個不重道獎勵以後提高他的所得那如果說公糧"},{"start":511.061,"end":513.904,"text":"好我給你一個方向啊給你一個方向農業部一個方向民國100年12月5號"},{"start":538.792,"end":566.499,"text":"12月5號行政院來航給立法院為什麼會來航給立法院呢在100年12月的3號3號立法院做了一個決議做了什麼決議第一個因為老人農民津貼暫行條例修正了要增加老農津貼"},{"start":568.069,"end":589.621,"text":"第二個國民年金法也修正了要增加沒有修正的沒有法源的也併同這個決議併同譬如說老農的林農津貼等等包括農業部的有幾個也併同修正"},{"start":591.803,"end":618.482,"text":"沒有法律的依據就一樣照立法院的決議行政院怎麼做呢12月3號立法院決議一百年12月5號啊行政院就報了一個修正中央政府101年度的總預算三天之內啊就修正"},{"start":620.097,"end":640.332,"text":"立法院行政院已經送到8月底送到100年8月31號以前送到立法院的101年度的總預算修正了增加多少增加很多光農業部就增加了7億多"},{"start":642.571,"end":658.404,"text":"總共包括內政部、人民會總共修正增加了163億6千7百萬所以這個部分可以做參考可以比照以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時38分）主席、各位委員，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，辛苦了。今天的議題是針對立法院的決議提高公糧收購價格的一個專題報告，你的報告寫得非常的詳細，重點就是因為立法院代表民意所作的決議，國民黨團在今年的5月8號提出了這個提案，因為基本工資、秧苗、物價指數不斷地上漲。尤其是基本工資，這13年來最起碼又調漲了將近10次，所以特別提案，公糧收購價格既然13年都沒有調整，應該要調整。經過朝野協商之後，113年7月16日立法院院會討論時特別提到，我們看一下最後立法院的決議，各黨團當時無異議，對民眾黨團、國民黨團的修正動議通過，有無異議？沒有異議，各黨團都同意，沒有表決喔！所以行政部門，農業部就應該要尊重民意，尊重立法院所做的決議。這個不是表決，是各黨團沒有異議，通過的決議。院長做了一個裁示，也就是立法院的決議特別提到，從109年到現在，13年未調漲，但物價大漲，包括人工、肥料、農業資材等各項成本。現在缺工，農業也缺工，也不是自己做，還要找人做，最起碼要基本工資以上，更是以上以上啊！所以這個部分是有它的緣由，當然這裡面也有提到，其他的你也一併可以考量，所以特別提到最後一點，農業部應綜合考量各項成本及物價指數調整公糧收購價格，由每公斤26元調整至每公斤31元。原來的提案是34元，後來大家協商之後是31元，原來的提案是34元，後來立法院所做的決議：由26元調整至每公斤31元，是這樣的一個決議。","當然，你今天的報告寫得非常詳細，也都有理由啦！但重點就是，畢竟是立法院代表全臺灣人民的民意所做的一個決議，所以在這樣的一個情形之下，包括相關的附帶決議都是無異議通過。好，回到你的報告，公糧價格自63年起到113年，歷經12次調升收購價格，最近一次就是100年，現在113年，所以是已經13年了。好，你這個報告裡面一直強調，過去你的說明也是一樣，一直強調會增加種稻的面積。如果我們看這個面積，99年稻作面積24.4萬公頃；100年是25.4萬公頃，提高也沒有增加多少啊！2萬公頃對不對？還比以前少，現在是113年，去年是22.2萬公頃，所以也沒有增加。關於這個部分，你們在實際的運作上，當然你們有你們的考量，我作為老公務員也都給予尊重，但畢竟是立法院所做的決議，所以在這個部分，我特別還是要請農業部能夠依立法院的決議給予支持。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們非常尊重立法院的主決議，在這個主決議之下，背後的一個精神就是要提高我們的稻農所得，我們現在提出來的這些「1集、2轉、3加3」政策，我們評估的結果是，這樣的話才能夠照顧到整體產業的所有稻農。我剛才也說過了，公糧的收購現在跟我們集團產區的民糧收購是並行的。我們也不意味我以後一輩子都不調公糧價格了，其實我們會在整個政策的實施過程中，去做適度的檢視跟做適度的調整。現階段我們希望委員能夠支持我們，針對「1集、2轉、3加3」的方案，能夠持續的去推動，後續我們會去看推動的成效跟產地價格的部分，再來做一些檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，你今天的報告羅列得非常詳細，就是今天一直在講1、2、3那個叫什麼方案？"],["陳部長駿季：「1集、2轉、3加3」方案。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個方案你在這邊也提了很多次了，我在電視上也看了、聽了，不影響你去推動這3個方案啊！你繼續去推動，如果推動的非常非常的棒，非常非常的有成效，說不定人民就說這個不用了……所以這個部分可以雙管齊下，併同進行。第一個就是要依立法院的決議來執行；第二個你原來要做的，你現在打算要做的繼續做，可以同時進行。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就是公糧提高5塊，跟我們現在推的，在政策上、本質上會有一些矛盾，特別是在「1集、2轉」裡面，尤其是2轉的部分，我們希望一些稻作，同樣是農民的收益，我希望他能夠轉成旱作以後，得到我們的不種稻獎勵之後，提高他的所得。如果公糧同步再進行的話，那會抵銷了另外一方面的政策，所以我還是希望委員能夠支持，讓我們先去做這樣的一個推動，然後後續看推動的成效，看產地價格的情形，我們一定會隨時滾動的檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我給你一個方向，給農業部一個方向，民國100年12月5日行政院來函立法院，為什麼會來函給立法院呢？在100年12月3日立法院做了一個決議，做了什麼決議？第一個，因為老人農民津貼暫行條例修正，要增加老農津貼；第二個，國民年金法也修正了，要增加，沒有修正的、沒有法源的也併同這個決議，譬如老農的離農津貼等等，包括農業部的有幾個也併同修正，沒有法律的依據，一樣照立法院的決議。行政院怎麼做呢？12月3日立法院決議，100年12月5日行政院就報了一個修正中央政府101年度的總預算，3天之內就修正了行政院在100年8月31日以前已經送到立法院101年度的總預算，增加多少？增加很多，光農業部就增加了七億多，包括內政部原民會，總共修正增加了163億6,700萬，所以這個部分可以做參考，可以比照，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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業他這些一挑戰的時候他要繳的電費就比較高了但是呢"},{"start":73.661,"end":100.822,"text":"因為產業的這個他大部分都是出口而且這些的產業呢大部分都是賺錢而且呢他的即使說他要他要就是說他要他要那個給這個消費者就是說轉嫁給消費者事實上呢他轉嫁也是轉嫁到那個什麼國外的那個進口商所以呢基本上對台灣的物價呢比較不會有受到影響"},{"start":101.562,"end":114.534,"text":"一點影響都沒有?我一想很少啊事實上是對事實上我們同意那個經濟部他台電呢他也有經濟部他有估計呢他大概呢今年呢他的影響是0.03"},{"start":116.596,"end":141.263,"text":"所以0.03基本上我們9月份的那個物價的一個預測預告預測呢基本上我們的大概我們的修改大概很少很少所以呢我還是要跟委員報告基本上我們的物價呢現在是慢慢在下來的不會就像那個那個委員所說的會就是說是那個什麼一發不可縮時絕對不會"},{"start":142.543,"end":161.621,"text":"現在通膨的情況老百姓其實心裡是很痛的比如說一個包子好了包子以前一顆大概六七塊現在一顆包子要三十塊滷肉飯總裁你記得吧以前我們吃大概一碗大概是十二塊左右現在滷肉飯喔 太多你知道嗎多少"},{"start":165.144,"end":191.674,"text":"我想委員講的也沒有錯啦。民眾的壓力感覺越來越沉重。不過是這樣子啦。哀聲連連,不想要向誰來訴說。我們在想一件事情,總裁大概央行裡面表現是算很好的啦。台電連連虧損。"},{"start":194.395,"end":213.881,"text":"又要撥補1000億後面可能再加1000億其他地方沒有錢了啦我們大家講一講也不同意啦除非央行你自己補給他啦央行那麼會賺央行有沒有可能在盈餘裡面直接撥給他去年央行的盈餘是多少我們去年呢"},{"start":215,"end":233.097,"text":"我們去年是就是說繳國庫呢是兩千億吧是不是那我們是去年兩千億我們是兩千億以前最早是八百億後來一千多億就是說對對對我們是兩千億是兩千億沒有錯那為什麼央行會變得那麼會賺錢"},{"start":234.778,"end":254.685,"text":"我們事實上我們是很穩健的去管理我們的外資產所以也就是說我們也不像其他的央行一樣的其他的央行我總覺得他們的一個管理的方法是比較take a risk就是說他們去冒險比較大"},{"start":260.807,"end":260.907,"text":"蓬佩奧﹗"},{"start":282.401,"end":305.084,"text":"按照就是說我們是那個我們是那個管理者善良管理者的一個角色我們要盡量的來讓我們的return我們的收益能夠增加所以我們的收益腳褲的金額大概都是很平穩的我們都很平穩的那今年會不會再增加呢?"},{"start":307.847,"end":326.184,"text":"我們今年就是兩千億啊那在我們的外匯存底裡面買美國的國債大概買了多少我們至少都有包括美元的資產我們應該是至少都有八成以上八成以上大概是八兆多吧台幣九兆"},{"start":328.273,"end":331.738,"text":"我們都是用美金來...美國的所有的國債5千7百7十幾億外存抵納乘以80%"},{"start":338.223,"end":343.284,"text":"我請問你美國的國債一再的破表現在已經累計大概34兆美元了我請問總裁一個問題那他時間到他還得起來嗎?"},{"start":366.468,"end":367.609,"text":"總裁,如果美元破產了,央行有沒有逼計畫?"},{"start":391.311,"end":418.802,"text":"有什麼B計劃基本上基本上我們是我們都是有在密切的注意密切的注意就是說我們的外匯存底的一個流動性還有它的安全性最重要的安全性我覺得你蠻準的啊因為上次我在野色這個地方我跟你請教說那很多哈日族啊要不要在日幣最低點"},{"start":419.642,"end":446.425,"text":"就是大概一美元兌換158日元的時候你那時候在這裡講說差不多到底了結果果然從你講的那一個時刻開始日幣就開始升值升到140多所以你知道那天有注意聽的老師有講課學生認真聽的他日如看看爸爸爸"},{"start":448.035,"end":461.805,"text":"所以我對你的這個判斷其實是有具參考性的所以說美元現在慢慢會美元強勢的地位慢慢改變那你第二個貨幣的選擇你會選擇哪裡?"},{"start":463.806,"end":489.038,"text":"會不會選擇歐元還是選擇人民幣或者是日元因為日元最近又貶到150左右了我跟委員報告就是說基本上我們的幣比的調整事實上就誠如委員在講的就是說它的第一個我們會考慮到就是說它的匯率的變化第二個呢我們會考慮到它的利率的變化"},{"start":489.718,"end":490.239,"text":"日本會不會再升息?"},{"start":501.597,"end":527.071,"text":"我想我跟委員報告就是說我個人的判斷遲早遲早會勝利遲早因為但是他的時間是怎麼樣這個我因為這是他所以我們看得到最近的日元又走軟所以有150兌換一美元這個甜蜜點又出現了央行會不會考慮增加持有日元的這個比重"},{"start":528.114,"end":529.976,"text":"日幣已經增加,以前是3%多,最近已經增加到快5%了吧?"},{"start":548.652,"end":570.72,"text":"因為日幣唯一的缺點就是日幣的唯一缺點當然如果說純粹從匯率的觀點來看的話第一個它波動也蠻大的就誠如剛剛你說它158然後波波波到140然後又波波波到150所以這個也是波動很大的一個必備這是第一點第二點它也是它的利率太低"},{"start":573.021,"end":596.736,"text":"所以也是在這種情況之下我們在動態的調整當中雖然他也是必備的一個之一但是除了我剛跟委員報告的他也有這兩大的弱點因為時間的關係我想因為美國的變化11月5號總統大選就到了假設是川普當選那總裁你對美元的走勢未來怎麼看"},{"start":598.137,"end":617.075,"text":"美元就說現在如果說以目前我們看就是說你看看10年期的公債的利率以前大家都認為就是說美國在調降利率的過程當中這10年期的公債的利率會下跌"},{"start":617.615,"end":645.001,"text":"但是呢最近的表現好像不是這樣子那這個表示什麼呢表示第一個就是說美國的經濟呢還是很有韌性的這是第一點第二點呢也是在反映就是說他的一個政治的不確定性包括就是說如果說川普上台的時候呢恐怕大家都會認為就是說我恐怕對通膨呢又會有不利的影響好像是市場呢也有做這樣的一個反應所以你希望川普當選嗎"},{"start":646.501,"end":668.24,"text":"這個我不予置評。這個你都要判斷嘛,兩邊。當然,我覺得中央銀行也會密切來關注,就是說美國哪一位總統會當選,那我們要怎麼...那你現在評比是哪一個比較會當選?這個我不好意思在這邊那個...那私下再跟我說好了。好,謝謝。"},{"start":671.505,"end":672.806,"text":"多謝您的參與。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時30分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員、大家好。主席，可不可以請楊總裁？"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁你好。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員早。"],["羅委員明才：現在開始電價暴漲，接著會不會萬物齊漲，大家都很擔心。電價暴漲了以後，會不會影響到整個通膨的發展？我們看今年都年底了，接著就過年，一連串都是節日、假期，這會不會間接讓臺灣的通膨情況一觸即發，然後造成失控的情況？"],["楊總裁金龍：對於委員講的，我覺得這一次經濟部台電要漲電價也很謹慎，也考慮到委員所擔心的事情，所以你看他們這一次純粹就這些比較賺錢的產業，譬如電子業等等調漲，他們要繳的電費就比較高了。因為這些產業大部分都是出口，大部分都是賺錢的，即使他們要轉嫁給消費者，要轉嫁也是轉嫁給國外的進口商。基本上，對臺灣的物價比較不會有影響。"],["羅委員明才：一點影響都沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：影響很少啊。"],["羅委員明才：很少？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，事實上經濟部和台電也有估計，大概今年它的影響是0.03；9月份的物價預測，基本上我們的修改（revise）大概也很少，很少。所以我還是要跟委員報告，我們的物價現在是慢慢在下來的，絕對不會像委員所說的一發不可收拾，絕對不會！"],["羅委員明才：面對現在通膨的情況，其實老百姓的心裡是很痛的，比如說包子好了，以前一顆大概6、7塊，現在一顆包子要30塊，總裁記得吧，以前吃一碗滷肉飯大概12塊左右，現在的滷肉飯一碗多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我想……"],["羅委員明才：50、60塊！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講的也沒有錯啦，就是說……"],["羅委員明才：民眾的壓力感覺是愈來愈沉重。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過是這樣子啦……"],["羅委員明才：真的是唉聲連連，不曉得要向誰來訴說。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，我覺得委員的這個……"],["羅委員明才：我在想一件事情，總裁大概是央行裡面表現算很好的……"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：現在台電連年虧損，又要撥補1,000億，後面可能再加1,000億，其他地方也沒有錢了，我們大家講一講也不同意，除非央行自己補給它。央行那麼會賺，有沒有可能在盈餘裡面直接撥給它？去年央行的盈餘是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們去年繳國庫是2,000億吧。"],["羅委員明才：最早是800百億，後來一千多億。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們去年是2,000億，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：為什麼央行變得那麼會賺錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上我們是很穩健的在管理我們的外匯資產，也就是說，我們不像其他的央行，他們的管理方法是比較take risk，他們的操作冒險比較大，所以他們有些時候會沒有賺錢，有些時候會賺很多……"],["羅委員明才：那我們的央行呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們就比較不會take risk，因為我們強調的是流動性跟安全性，我們覺得在安全性沒有問題的情況下，按照善良管理者的角色，儘量來讓我們的return，我們的收益能能夠增加。所以我們的收益、繳庫的金額，大概都是很平穩的。"],["羅委員明才：今年會不會再增加？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們今年就是2,000億啊！"],["羅委員明才：在我們的外匯存底裡面，美國的國債大概買了多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：包括美元資產，我們應該至少都有八成以上。"],["羅委員明才：台幣大概是八兆多、九兆？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都是用美金來計算，總共是五千七百七十幾億的外匯存底，再乘以80%。"],["羅委員明才：幾兆？"],["楊總裁金龍：就是四千多億的美金。"],["羅委員明才：所以是十幾兆的臺幣，換算成美金就是你剛剛講的數字。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：再請問你，美國國債一再破表，現在已經累積大概34兆美元，我想請問總裁一個問題，時間到了他們還得起嗎？他的財務狀況每下愈況。"],["楊總裁金龍：當然啦，委員講的也沒有錯，不過相較其他的國家來講，美元現在還是一個比較可靠的投資工具。"],["羅委員明才：如果美元破產，央行有沒有B計畫（B plan）？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，我們都有在密切注意我們外匯存底的流動性，還有它的安全性，最重要的是安全性。"],["羅委員明才：我覺得你滿準的，因為上次我也是在這個地方向你請教，很多哈日族要不要在日幣最低點，大概是1美元兌換158日元，你那時候在這裡講：差不多到底了，結果從你講的那一刻開始，日幣就開始升值，升到一百四十多。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：所以那天老師講課，如果有認真聽的學生、哈日族，真的就賺飽飽！所以我覺得你的判斷，其實是有參考性的。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：美元現在的強勢地位會慢慢改變，你的第二個貨幣選擇，你會選擇哪裡？會不會選擇歐元、人民幣或者是日圓？因為日圓最近又貶到150左右。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，基本上幣別的調整，就誠如委員所講的，第一個我們會考慮它的匯率變化；第二個我們會考慮它的利率變化，當然還有它的安全性啦！所以，我們隨時在做動態的調整。"],["羅委員明才：日本會不會再升息？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我個人的判斷，遲早……"],["羅委員明才：遲早會升息？"],["楊總裁金龍：遲早會，但是它的時間是怎麼樣，我……"],["羅委員明才：我們看到最近的日圓又走軟，來到150兌換1美元，這個甜蜜點又出現了，央行會不會考慮增加持有日圓的比重？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我們有做其他幣別的調整，從美元或從人民幣去做調整，日幣也是我們其中考量之一啦！"],["羅委員明才：日幣已經增加，以前是3%多，最近增加到快5%了吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，不。"],["羅委員明才：沒有沒有到5%，是4%多？"],["楊總裁金龍：日幣唯一的缺點，如果純粹從匯率的觀點來看的話，第一個它的波動也滿大的，誠如委員剛剛說它在158，然後又到140，然後又到150，所以它也是波動很大的幣別，這是第一點；第二點是它的利率太低，我們在動態的調整當中，雖然它也是幣別之一，但就如我剛剛跟委員報告的，它也有這兩大的弱點。"],["羅委員明才：因為時間的關係，有關美國的變化，11月5日美國總統大選就到了，假設是川普當選，那麼總裁對美元的走勢，未來是怎麼看？"],["楊總裁金龍：美元如果就目前來看，十年期的公債利率，以前大家都認為美國在調降利率的過程當中，十年期的公債利率會下跌，但是最近的表現好像不是這樣子，這個表示什麼呢？第一點，就是美國的經濟還是很有韌性的；第二點，也是在反映它的政治不確定性。如果川普上臺，恐怕大家都會認為對通膨又會有不利的影響，市場好像也有做這樣的反應。"],["羅委員明才：所以你希望川普當選嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不予置評。"],["羅委員明才：可是你對兩邊都要判斷嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，中央銀行也會密切來關注，就是美國哪一位總統會當選，我們要怎麼……"],["羅委員明才：你現在的評比是哪一個比較會當選？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不好意思在這邊……"],["羅委員明才：那私下再跟我說，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。","請麥玉珍、麥玉珍，麥玉珍委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請羅智強、羅智強，羅智強委員不在。","請徐巧芯、徐巧芯，徐巧芯委員不在。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時42分）","繼續開會（11時42分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065f08fcc891d11e2e360efc051a48f213596f892b6d7a78c0a5ac6dbb343cce39b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:26:02 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這樣算喔 金水豐你一定要幫我納入好不好因為我曉得我當地的農民那個海邊的生態我一清二楚"},{"start":212.418,"end":212.658,"text":"農業部長陳超明"},{"start":237.285,"end":263.204,"text":"汗滴河下土再來你跟我說誰知盤中仙盤中孫啊不是利利皆辛苦好這標示我們做法院農業農民的辛苦我們以農利共大家跟農業跟農民都有深厚的感情你今天所謂評估報告出來我從頭把你抬到尾我所謂資料都把你調起來你裡面說"},{"start":266.625,"end":283.689,"text":"我請教你一個問題現在農民座一公頃實質的收益大概會有多少?一家棟?一家棟一期座6到8萬好業人7到8萬二期座收成比較少喔?一家一家棟一期座6到8萬可以貪6到8萬二期座是4到6萬我告訴你6到8萬要在台北一車一張坐就沒意了"},{"start":295.331,"end":312.641,"text":"所以我現在覺得你這個部長不替農民講話我感覺你是研究資深而且你也是做過農我覺得你一定會替農民講話我跟你們報告這次的收入相對於其他的品項其實他也比較高你不會這樣說他做的社產就是社產你的報告裡面說集團產區的企作價格每公斤26到29"},{"start":323.277,"end":349.717,"text":"高於公糧收購的26年你現在想你從2011年到今年2024年13年你都沒有調整這公糧的收購你是在壓榨農民我給你算我們現在基本工作的調整我們的公務薪水的調整跟著通貨膨脹不然你也要調整一下你竟然一口給一個貨我要看你的什麼"},{"start":351.38,"end":376.63,"text":"一舉二轉 三加三 要賠到這麼少的 看來看去又三個不差什麼我算是做些人出身的 你這是糟蹋農民當然你說的也有一些道理 但是基本 臺灣的物價已經漲了多少你說調高公糧價格會帶動其他的物價 什麼水果什麼那些物價我聽不進去 本來都已經在漲了"},{"start":378.871,"end":405.32,"text":"但是你要如何來改進這一些?你一集團,沒有你自己選擇嘛!提高公糧的價格,你們一定要跟集團簽合約,這個是另外一個途徑嘛!啊你說要改種優良的、品質的種,你跟我種這個瓶子的種啊!是什麼樣的改革你叫人家要種?沒有種我不會幫你收!大家就怪怪的來啊!你捨得這麼多看!"},{"start":411.474,"end":422.839,"text":"其實你集團收購才二十六到二十九給三個而已,要交你的報告所以我感覺你們要改變思考的方向"},{"start":424.73,"end":451.928,"text":"你現在要給我公糧,不然你給我種什麼品種,你覺得好嗎?不然你就說你要給我參觀集團做,還是安裝來修?這個方式你誰家沒誰人看得到好不好?我講真的啦!所以你這個想法就要改啦!你這樣說要賺到29元、賣到30元而已,我怎麼有感受?第一,一家都要賺6萬到10萬好不好?"},{"start":454.191,"end":459.342,"text":"找太多名了我是跟你講真的一家中六萬跟九萬"},{"start":461.554,"end":485.249,"text":"一黨受農變,若國衛跟參農辦跟高辦一國衛跟你參農辦一辦好不好?這個怎麼過活嘛?那是大家感覺說我這堆土地做先勞了,我要好好耕種,不然怕被外國人不孝順,沒有什麼事。都是在旁邊要找工作才有增加收入嘛,你都要了解這個情形嘛。"},{"start":486.803,"end":514.994,"text":"不然你從插秧的地方收割的地方那些待耕業者拜託他們去跟他們做的地址來講不然你講這些道理不通啊你可以再強制要求嘛我公糧收購就要品質比較好我固定收了多少你30%嘛你這講出來喔農民傻到不傻傻真的我們到哪個地方"},{"start":516.178,"end":543.443,"text":"政治層委員．農民說那個公糧十幾年都沒有給我們調整你這次要去給我們發聲要調整跟你的想法跟農民的想法差別很大我希望你在這邊再調整調整一個適當的方案農民要開心不然你農業的設施做了那麼多這開始要改進的所在"},{"start":546.063,"end":567.808,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教那我們其實共同的目的就是要提高稻農的所得這是我們一致的目標那現在目前稻作有兩個系統一個是公糧一個是集團契作我們現在我們希望說透過集團契作的方式能夠照顧到所有的稻農那我也必須要去"},{"start":568.548,"end":580.876,"text":"去 內部要去討論的就是我們有沒有辦法去建立一個機制去做這個調整的一個機制你裡面報告說有2.24萬公頃只要抽離3%到5%就能把公糧的價格穩定好是產地的價格不是公糧的價格7000公頃到12000公頃你在雜糧的幾十年都沒有調整價格"},{"start":596.82,"end":623.796,"text":"你鼓勵調整價格那個介紹到好大家就照樣去做你公糧的收購就不用那麼多嘛你節償補短看什麼樣的方式這兩個政策是矛盾的齁因為我們一直希望把水稻轉成雜糧那雜糧的部分我們包括你如果不種到我已經多了一萬五了有增加的誘因那你一方面如果提高公糧收購的話又會跑過來所以基本上我想我們整體的產業是需要進步的"},{"start":625.817,"end":632.395,"text":"現在在半島啊說去政府半島一塊就三千啊普通是啊"},{"start":633.703,"end":640.547,"text":"農民的所得普遍的比其他的行業還要低這是事實然後我們也希望能夠透過各種方式能夠提高稻農所得我們的農產品的價格也偏低我們也希望說透過方式"},{"start":659.839,"end":688.249,"text":"不善於種植的到了全部改為國土計劃那個什麼發展區啊農業發展區降掉你的價格穩定你有好多種手段不是這行而已你也不要怕那些農運民運農運團體在講以前國民黨執政農運團體看天天抗爭發民政黨執政那些農運團體我都看不到了我們只是不想講"},{"start":689.795,"end":711.772,"text":"你把這些3億3、1萬2千公頃,照你所講,3到5、7千公頃,現在不適宜更重,改為城鄉發展區。第一個,把房價低價整個壓低下來,我不知道你這個政府要怎麼做,理智又沒有辦法,沒有拿出一道妥善的辦法,你要整體討論,不然現在房價那麼貴,"},{"start":716.168,"end":735.693,"text":"農民感鼓舞,你以為農民啊,大家都在期待呢,我常常講一句話你都沒有感受到。我們的廟裡的三坡地,一公頃三千平,沒有台北的一間廁所,好在的一間廁所,這樣你也跟我說,很悲哀啊,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時26分）首先謝謝主席，有請我們農業部的陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。今天是討論公糧調高價格的評估跟評審的一個報告，但是關於這個公糧的報告，我首先要先跟你請教一個問題，目前我們的農業保險率覆蓋率是51%，比109年的9%確實增加很多，但是這51%最重要的是，你是針對水稻跟豬隻的採取強制保險以後，所以一旦把這個部分扣掉，你只有17.6%，而且這個保險現在老百姓也不怎麼相信，因為農業保險不一定拿得到理賠的費用。今年的10月2號，農業部給我火速預告，修正天然災害救助辦法，你把本田中後期稻米適用天然災害的類型限縮於龍捲風跟冰雹，我跟你說，依照我的看法，部長，你根本是替那些保險公司講話，並沒有替農民講話！臺灣的龍捲風多不多？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，關於預告的部分，其實我們昨天公告的時候已經把水稻這個部分拿掉了，沒有公告，所以沒有這個問題。"],["陳委員超明：我現在是先跟你說，你突然拿掉很好，這表示你有從善如流，因為過去你們只有規定龍捲風及冰雹，但這個東西在臺灣很少發生嘛，你替這些東西辦保險是要做什麼？但我今天要說的是……"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["陳委員超明：我希望你在這個公告裡面幫我加一項鹽水風，你知道新竹、苗栗跟臺中在這個階段，我們叫做九捲風，如果那個風一捲起來，鹽水在海邊一掃，那些樹、那些稻子，差不多都種不活了，都是空包彈，如果你要公告這個，真正有發生的話，我們叫做鹽水風啊，你這樣聽得懂嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解，我完全贊成委員的意見，就是現在水稻的保險已經用我們的農業保險去支撐了，但是針對特定的一些災害，你剛才說的，龍捲風在臺灣不容易發生，但是鹽風，你剛才說的，海邊的鹽風反而機會會比較大。"],["陳委員超明：非常大。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，我在上次的委員會已經承諾，天然災害救助每一年年底之前都會檢討完成，包括金額，包括裡面不適合的條款，我們在第二年的1月份，一定會重新公告一次，所以趁這次年底檢討的時候，我會把它納入，作為我們檢討的一個依據。"],["陳委員超明：好，這樣很讚！鹽水風，你一定要幫我納入，好不好？因為我曉得，當地的農民，那個海邊的生態我一清二楚，好不好？你光是限縮在龍捲風跟冰雹，這不可能拿得到嘛，好不好？。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會納入討論，在我們的專案會議上去做討論。"],["陳委員超明：再來，要跟你討論到公糧的收購，聽了你今天的報告，確實很矛盾，你記得一句話嗎？我看你是否接得起來，「鋤禾日當午，汗滴禾下土」，再來你告訴我。"],["陳部長駿季：誰知盤中飧，粒粒皆辛苦。"],["陳委員超明：好，這表示我們很懷念農民的辛苦，我們以農立國，大家跟農業、跟農民都有深厚的感情。你今天所有評估報告出來，我從頭讀到尾，所有的資料都調出來，裡面說的我請教你一個問題，現在農民做一甲地的實質收益大概會有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：一期作的時候差不多6到8萬，好一點有7到8萬，二期作收成比較少，有4到6。"],["陳委員超明：1公頃喔！你說多少？"],["陳部長駿季：一甲地一期作6到8萬。"],["陳委員超明：可以賺6到8萬？"],["陳部長駿季：二期作是4到6萬。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，6到8萬在臺北市請一桌就沒了。所以我現在覺得你這個部長沒有替農民說話，你是研究出身，而且你也務過農，我覺得你一定會替農民講話。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，水稻的收入相對於其他品項，其實它也比較高了。"],["陳委員超明：你不能這樣說，種田的就是種田，你的報告裡面說，集團產區的契作價格每公斤26到29，高於公糧收購的26元，你想，從2011年到今（2024）年，13年來你都沒有調整公糧收購價格，你是在壓榨農民。我來算，我們現在基本工資調整了，我們公務員的薪水也調整了，都跟著通貨膨脹調，不然你也應該稍微調整一下，結果你竟然一口否決。我看你的「1集、2轉、3加3」，我背得很熟，但是看來看去也是霧煞煞，我是「作穡人」出身的，你這是在糟蹋農民。當然你說的也有一些道理，但是基本臺灣的物價已經漲了多少？你說調高公糧價格會帶動其他物價，包括水果等等的物價，我聽不進去！本來就已經在漲了，但是你要如何來改進這些？說到集團，不然你就限制，提高公糧價購，一定要跟集團簽合約，這個是另外一個途徑嘛！你說要改種優良品質的種，那就看什麼稻子的種比較好，叫他們種，不種就不要收，大家就會乖乖的來，你寫這麼多，看不懂啦！你又說到休耕、怎麼補償，其實集團收購才26到29元，多3元而已，照你報告上所說的。","所以我覺得你們要改變思考的方向，你要收購公糧，看是種什麼品種比較好吃，或者規定要跟著集團做，還是怎麼樣收，現在你寫這樣，沒什麼人看得懂，好不好？我講真的啦！所以你這個想法要改啦！你說這樣比較高，其實也只到29元，才多3元而已，農民怎麼會有感受？第一個，一甲地才賺6萬到10萬，這是在糟蹋農民耶！我是跟你講真的，一甲地賺6萬到9萬，一年收兩次，6個月才賺6萬到9萬，一個月賺2萬、1萬好不好？這個怎麼過活嘛？那是大家覺得土地是祖先留下來的要好好耕種，不然怕被誤以為是不肖子，否則實在沒什麼收益，都是要在旁邊再找工作才能增加收入，你要瞭解這個情形嘛！不然你從插秧的地方、收割的地方，拜託那些代耕業者去跟他們的地主講，你說這些道理不通啦！你可以再強制要求嘛，公糧就是要品質比較好，固定收多少，你30%嘛！這話說出來，農民弄得霧煞煞，真的！我們到那裡去，農民遇到陳委員說：超明啊！公糧價格十幾年都沒有調整了，這次你要替我們發聲，要調整啊！你的想法跟農民的想法差別很大，我希望你在這邊再調整，調整出一個適當的方案，農民才會高興，不然你農業設施做了那麼多，這才是要改進的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的指教。其實我們共同的目的就是要提高稻農的所得，這是我們一致的目標。目前稻作有兩個系統，一個是公糧，一個是集團契作……"],["陳委員超明：我曉得。"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望透過集團契作的方式能夠照顧到所有稻農，我們內部也必須要去討論的就是我們有沒有辦法建立一個機制做這個調整的機制？"],["陳委員超明：我再跟你說一次，你的報告說優良農田24萬公頃，只要脫離3%到5%，就能把公糧的價格穩定住……"],["陳部長駿季：是產地的價格，不是公糧的價格。"],["陳委員超明：就算3%到5%，差不多就是7,000公頃到1萬2,000公頃，雜糧也是幾十年都沒有調整價格了，你鼓勵調整價格，只要價格比較好，大家就跑去種，公糧的收購就不用那麼多嘛！你就截長補短，看用什麼樣的方式。"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個政策是矛盾的，因為我們一直希望把水稻轉成雜糧，雜糧的部分包括如果不種稻就已經多了1萬5,000，有增加的誘因，但一方面又提高公糧收購的話，那邊就會跑過來，所以基本上，我們整體的產業是需要進步的。"],["陳委員超明：報告部長，現在進香辦桌辦一桌3,000，平常就要超過1萬，都市人這樣在生活，你有想到農民的難處嗎？那1萬還不夠……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：你以為這個功勞很大啊？很可憐！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農民的所得普遍比其他行業還要低，這是事實，我們也希望能夠透過各種方式提高稻農所得，我們的農產品價格也偏低，也希望透過方式……"],["陳委員超明：你說他們都同意，不善於種植的全部改為國土計畫什麼發展區……"],["陳部長駿季：農業發展區。"],["陳委員超明：城鄉發展區。占住了價格就穩定了，你有好多種手段，不是一樣而已，你不要怕那些農運、民運團體在講。以前國民黨執政，農運團體天天抗爭，換民進黨執政，那些農運團體我都看不到了，我們只是不想講。你把這些刪一刪，照你所講的，3%到5%就是7,000公頃到1萬2,000公頃，那些不適宜耕種的就改為城鄉發展區。第一個，把房價、地價整個壓低下來，我不知道這個政府是怎麼樣，愛面子，裡子又沒有辦法，你要拿出一道妥善的辦法，你要整體討論嘛！不然現在房價這麼貴，農民只有苦苦等待，大家都在期待。我常常講一句話，你都沒有感受到，我們苗栗的山坡地1公頃3,000坪買不到臺北的一間廁所、豪宅的一間廁所，這樣你也敢說，很悲哀啊！謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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"},{"start":106.206,"end":133.769,"text":"如果說我們就是說是從A降到B加就是說是被黑鉤我覺得這個也是委員對我們的美言不過從我們中央銀行的立場還有我個人的一個立場來看的話我總覺得中央銀行第一個要虛心檢討第二個我們要"},{"start":134.449,"end":151.685,"text":"持續的努力表示說中央銀行還有精進進步的空間對我想我在上個會期就講過其實我覺得重點在於從2020年我們開始第一波信用管制其實到現在已經七波了"},{"start":152.705,"end":176.613,"text":"然後從2022年的相關的房市的狀況房價的狀況其實央行一直希望說總裁也在記者會裡面表示過希望房市能夠軟著路軟著路有兩個條件價格要慢慢往下調炒作要退場總裁七波了價格有沒有慢慢往下調炒作有沒有退場"},{"start":178.255,"end":200.266,"text":"所以這個也就是說我們為什麼我們在第七波為什麼還要第七波就是因為沒有發聲嘛你的目標預期沒有做到嘛所以第七波其實是在收前面的爛攤子我必須要很沉痛的說出來因為我們在今年去應該說大選年我們本來做了一個居住正義很重要的平均地權條例"},{"start":201.924,"end":226.506,"text":"這個政策讓房價暫時抑制了一部分其實只有抑制了兩個月兩個月之後的8月推出了行情案貸款我的天哪房價就再也沒有下來過從相關的這個房屋指數房價指數來說2022年的下半年到今年的9月整整27個月只有兩個月的房租年增率低於2%也就是"},{"start":227.762,"end":234.817,"text":"你剛剛講的價格慢慢往下調沒有發生而且價格往上漲的速度還在不斷提高"},{"start":235.831,"end":257.749,"text":"更快了更快的漲所以總裁這兩個是你要推出第七波信用管制的主要原因對嗎應該是了就是說他的預期我們報告也有講到就是說預期心理非常強所以這個金龍海嘯其實是執政黨以前錯誤矛盾的政策互相推擠的浪花只是灌在楊金龍的頭上"},{"start":258.55,"end":265.755,"text":"但是他有一個很大的問題是他讓房價降不下來建商剛剛講這些小建商每天放這些消息其實當時如果平均地點條例下來之後房價會往下降"},{"start":289.131,"end":313.914,"text":"根您的預期一樣但是新青安讓它止降讓它撐在那裡而且因為我們又有6000多億的錢又投入了房地產市場這才是整個房價必須要用第七波來做的原因不過後來後來院裡面也有救新青安的做的訣竅總裁我的時間有限我只要說有希望你原來預設的目標跟政策方向"},{"start":314.734,"end":338.134,"text":"在你的第七波做不到的話第八波繼續做你的金融海嘯力度可以再大一點否則這個目標永遠達不成我們持續檢討密切關注持續檢討第二個部分就是我們現在很多房貸因為你的相關管制方式很多人帶不到了有沒有發現信貸增加然後流到不動產的狀況"},{"start":341.802,"end":353.848,"text":"我在想應該也會有不過我跟委員報告這個也就是說金管會他也在這一方面他會做精檢我們的精檢處也會做專案精檢就這個部分"},{"start":358.79,"end":375.941,"text":"我想我跟委員報告我們如果要達到你的第一個目標就要禁止信貸進入不動產市場否則你這個信用管制又沒有用我們來注意這個情況專案金檢金管會要做央行我覺得你的政策要落實這是非常重要否則"},{"start":376.681,"end":386.232,"text":"一波兩波七波了也沒有用一定有出了什麼原因接下來是9月我們電價調漲10月16號上路雖然都漲的是產業的電價漲幅到14%產業平均調漲了12%"},{"start":394.722,"end":409.23,"text":"我們之前9月份的禮監事會當時有把這個放進來嗎那時候沒有那時候沒有那現在你現在預計接下去的我們的通膨會受到這個影響有多少沒有很大因為第一個"},{"start":410.31,"end":434.29,"text":"今年如果說以整年來講的話呢我們的估測呢是大概他會有0.125左右的但是那是整年但是呢到就今年來看的話呢今年來看呢他只剩下幾個月所以今年如果再有廠商說因為電價調漲所以他要調漲他的相關商品你覺得合理嗎基本上應該廠商比較不會"},{"start":437.673,"end":442.795,"text":"總裁我想問一下我們對於所謂你3月份的時候是說你那時候升息是因為要抑制國內通膨的預期心理請問我們對於通膨預期心理有做過相關的調查嗎?"},{"start":463.807,"end":487.348,"text":"我們現在呢就開始在就是說對我們不是我們事實上呢我們本身吼也有有一些很多模型在預測就是說欸我們下一個月會多少啊這個整年會多少我們有很多的模型那針對消費者的這個部分呢我們現在是委託中央研究院有相關的數字嗎"},{"start":490.59,"end":506.912,"text":"因為疫情心理就會是你接下去很多貨幣政策的我同意一定要有調查才會有相關的資訊嘛但重點在於說我們現在長期以來穩定物價都是用補貼包括電價"},{"start":508.313,"end":511.817,"text":"我們長期公用政策用補貼的方式其實是對於所謂的真正的價格"},{"start":523.067,"end":544.059,"text":"我們可能一致的價格可是我們產生了更多的內部的成本你同意嗎這個我跟委員報告如果說我個人的看法就譬如像說北捷但是我即使說北捷的這個店就是說它比較長時間有時候把它凍結就是說比較沒有賬"},{"start":545.16,"end":556.295,"text":"我覺得還好,為什麼?因為北捷本身他都賺錢。我這一次說業外收入吧。用公共政策,要用公共政策領導。那這一次台電的這個部分是因為我個人的看法。"},{"start":562.943,"end":573.911,"text":"我的意思只是說你同意長期用價格控制政府補貼的方式來決定市場的機制嗎我們的問題是我們要適度的慢慢短期只能短期來實施這樣的一個這個把這一段期間如果說解決了以後呢我們就要把它放寬就要歐美曾經發生過一模一樣的狀況"},{"start":592.983,"end":613.809,"text":"同樣的臺灣長期用價格去抑制用所謂的補貼去抑制價格但是我們其實不是一個正常的市場最後一個簡單的小問題很有趣總裁我們常常央行會發行紀念幣對不對紀念幣最近我接到很多的銀樓朋友來問因為他們很多現在金幣漲價"},{"start":615.829,"end":644.946,"text":"一顆金電幣那時候買是七萬兩千塊現在大概可以賣到八萬五所以進賺一萬三很多人拿去銀樓然後他們就說我可不可以把它融化然後銀樓很害怕因為這個好像中央銀行發行的就叫做法幣就是國幣這個有沒有算到所謂的防害國幣懲治條例我是不是黃委員我要請我們的發言人來給銀樓業者一個答案"},{"start":646.167,"end":669.054,"text":"是跟委員報告有關這個問題確實是我們發行：所以我們買了的人都很想賣掉啦我們發行的就是國幣啦所以怎麼辦呢你要不要修法把這個從國幣裡面剔除否則這些相關的事情可能會沒被檢舉就算了被檢舉的時候一年以上七年以下是不得了的事耶"},{"start":670.635,"end":683.711,"text":"這個確實是觸犯了所謂的我們的防害國幣懲治條例所以要不要做調整?要不要告知?要不要修正?可是這個定罪應該是由司法機關來定罪但是你要先定它是不是國幣嗎?"},{"start":685.208,"end":685.228,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":708.61,"end":731.821,"text":"國家要保護的法幣我覺得可以讓他從這個法條把它除外是你們去研究一下好這個會期來不及下個會期以前給我一個答案好謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝好謝謝珊珊委員那接著請林柱英委員林柱英林柱英委員不在那接著請羅敏采委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時18分）我請楊總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁早。剛剛我被記者拉著要問你一個問題，雖然我不太喜歡問這種比較不屬於政策的問題，希望能夠了解一下，包括金融管制這件事情，請問賴總統有沒有跟你溝通過？或者是用什麼方式跟您溝通的？"],["楊總裁金龍：總統也有提到，他不是說我們過當，沒有！所以有幾個委員就講說……我記得總統好像是說，金融機構……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以沒有直接跟你溝通？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有講說我們過當，沒有，沒有這回事！"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，你沒有寫LINE、也沒有打電話就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，以上是記者要問的。","接下來是我要問的，總裁，在環球金融雜誌公布的2024全球央行總裁評比，以前我們都是得A，這次被降為B+，我寫了一篇臉書說，這是你的非戰之罪，我想央行幫執政黨的各部門背了一個很大的黑鍋，所產生的內憂外患，一個是現在號稱國內的「金龍海嘯」，「金龍海嘯」就是你打房打得太兇了；另外，外患就是被國際金融相關雜誌評比為B+。總裁，你要不要說一下你的感想？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果我們從A降到B+是背黑鍋，我覺得這個也是委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們大家給你……"],["楊總裁金龍：委員對我們的美言，不過從我們中央銀行的立場還有我個人的立場來看，我總覺得中央銀行第一個要虛心檢討；第二個，我們要持續的努力，也表示中央銀行還有精進、進步的空間。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，我在上個會期就講過，其實我覺得重點在於，從2020年我們開始第一波金融管制到現在已經七波了；然後從2022年相關的房市狀況、房價狀況，其實央行一直希望、總裁也在記者會裡面表示過，希望房市能夠軟著陸，軟著陸有兩個條件：價格要慢慢往下調、炒作要退場。總裁，七波了，價格有沒有慢慢往下調？炒作有沒有退場？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以這也就是我們為什麼在第七波……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼還要第七波？就是因為沒有發生嘛，你的目標、預期沒有做到！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以第七波其實是在收前面的爛攤子，我必須要很沉痛的說出來，因為我們在今年……應該說大選年，我們本來做了一個對於居住正義很重要的平均地權條例，這個政策讓房價暫時抑制了一部分，其實只有抑制了兩個月；兩個月之後的8月推出了新青安貸款，我的天啊，房價就再也沒有下來過，從相關的房屋指數、房價指數來說，從2022年的下半年到今年的9月，整整27個月只有兩個月的房租年增率低於百分之二，也就是你剛剛講的，價格慢慢往下調沒有發生、而且價格往上漲的速度還在不斷提高、更快了、更快的漲！所以總裁，這兩個是你要推出第七波信用管制的主要原因，對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是啦，我們報告也有講到，就是說預期心理非常強。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個「金龍海嘯」其實是執政黨以前錯誤、矛盾的政策互相推起的浪花，只是灌在楊金龍的頭上。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我在這裡……"],["黃委員珊珊：你不會這樣講，這是我這樣講的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我也要替政府的政策……事實上，新青安也是健全房地產方案的重要一環。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是它有一個很大的問題是，它讓房價降不下來，剛剛講的這些小建商每天放這些消息，其實當初平均地權條例下來之後房價會往下降，跟您的預期一樣，但是新青安讓它止降、讓它撐在那裡，而且因為我們又有六千多億的錢投入了房地產市場，這才是整個房價你必須要用第七波來做的原因。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過後來院裡面也有就新青安做檢討……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我的時間有限，我只要說，我希望你原來預設的目標跟政策方向在你的第七波做不到的話，第八波繼續做，你的「金龍海嘯」力度可以再大一點，否則這個目標永遠達不成！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們持續檢討、密切關注。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分，現在很多房貸因為你的相關管制方式，很多人貸不到了，有沒有發現信貸增加然後流到不動產的狀況？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想……"],["黃委員珊珊：有還是沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想應該也會有。"],["黃委員珊珊：也會有。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，金管會在這一方面也會做金檢，我們的金檢處也會做專案金檢，就這個部分我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果要達到你的第一個目標，就要禁止信貸進入不動產市場，否則你這個信用管制又沒有用，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們來注意……"],["黃委員珊珊：專案金檢金管會要做，央行我覺得你的政策要落實。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：這是非常重要，否則一波、兩波、七波了也沒有用，一定有出了什麼原因。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，9月電價調漲、10月16號上路，雖然漲的都是產業的電價、漲幅到14%，那產業平均調漲了12%，在你們之前9月份的理監事會，當時有把這個放進來嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：那時候沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：你現在預期接下來我們的通膨會受到這個的影響有多大？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有很大，因為第一個，如果以整年來講的話，以我們的估測大概會有0.125%左右的……"],["黃委員珊珊：0.125%。"],["楊總裁金龍：但那是整年，就今年來看的話，只剩下幾個月，所以今年不大。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果再有廠商說因為電價調漲，所以他要調漲他的相關商品，你覺得合理嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，廠商應該比較不會，一般的攤販……"],["黃委員珊珊：店家。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為這次攤販那些都沒有調漲嘛，所以如果他也有漲，那就比較容易，但是基本上好像……"],["黃委員珊珊：應該不會影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：民生不會影響。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我想問一下，你3月份的時候說，你那時候升息是因為要抑制國內通膨的預期心理。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：請問你們對於通膨預期心理有做過相關的調查嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們現在就開始在……"],["黃委員珊珊：開始查？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：做過幾次了？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，我們本身也有很多模型在做預測，比如下個月會多少，整年又會多少，我們有很多的模型。針對消費者的部分，我們現在是委託中央研究院……"],["黃委員珊珊：有相關的數字嗎？就是預期心理的部分，因為預期心理會是你接下去很多貨幣政策的……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，委員講的沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意一定要有調查，才會有相關的資訊嘛！重點在於，我們長期以來穩定物價都是用補貼的方式，包括電價，捷運現在電價也漲很多，但是捷運票價也不能漲……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們長期在公共政策上面用補貼的方式，對所謂的真正的價格……我們可能抑制了價格，可是也產生了更多的內部的成本，你同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我個人的看法，譬如像北捷的電比較長時間的凍結，也就是比較沒有漲價，我覺得也還好，為什麼？因為北捷本身都賺錢……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是業外收入嘛……"],["楊總裁金龍：對……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們要用公共政策引導……"],["楊總裁金龍：這一次的台電，我個人的看法就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是，你同意長期用價格控制，政府補貼的方式……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對……"],["黃委員珊珊：來決定市場的機制嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我非常贊同委員的看法……"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得問題是，我們要適度的、慢慢的……"],["楊總裁金龍：只能短期來實施，當然把這一段期間解決了以後，我們就要把它放寬。"],["黃委員珊珊：歐美曾經發生過一模一樣的狀況……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，沒有錯，委員的看法是沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：他們慢慢的回歸市場機制；同樣的，臺灣長期用價格去抑制，用補貼去抑制價格，這其實不是一個正常的市場。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個簡單的小問題很有趣。總裁，央行常常會發行紀念幣，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：最近我接到很多銀樓的朋友來問，他們說現在金幣漲價，那時候買一顆紀念幣是七萬兩千塊，現在大概可以賣到八萬五，淨賺一萬三，很多人拿去銀樓賣，然後他們就問，可不可以把它融化？銀樓很害怕，好像中央銀行發行的，就叫做法幣、國幣，這個有沒有犯到所謂的妨害國幣懲治條例啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員，我是不是請發行局鄧局長說明？"],["黃委員珊珊：請說，給銀樓業者一個答案。"],["鄧局長延達：跟委員報告，有關這個問題，確實是我們發行的……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們買了的人都很想賣掉。"],["鄧局長延達：我們發行的就是國幣。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以怎麼辦呢？你們要不要修法，把它從國幣裡面剔除，否則這些相關的事情，沒被檢舉就算了，被檢舉的話，就是一年以上，七年以下，是不得了的事！"],["鄧局長延達：這個確實是觸犯了我們的妨害國幣懲治條例。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要不要調整，要不要告知，要不要修正？"],["鄧局長延達：可是定罪的部分應該是由司法機關來……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是，你要先訂定它是不是國幣？紀念幣有必要弄成這麼嚴重嗎？"],["鄧局長延達：這個我們再來考慮。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，人民會去買這個紀念幣，其實有點是在保值啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：就是買它的紀念性，但不能因此就變成妨害國幣──一年以上，七年以下，比一般的刑責還重，這是怎麼回事？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果不是國家要保護的法幣，我覺得可以從這個法條把它除外，你們去研究一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果這個會期來不及，下個會期以前給我一個答復。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝珊珊委員。","接著請林楚茵委員、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30651a639aac83172e2560efc051a48f213596f892b6d7a78c0ac546275bb53366fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:19:03 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台中監獄這邊有沒有曾經提過說要求他不能做這樣的行為"},{"start":67.526,"end":68.768,"text":"這跟之前四部"},{"start":82.546,"end":83.106,"text":"所以你現在收證的結果怎麼樣?"},{"start":109.915,"end":110.536,"text":"臺灣司法及醫學的奇蹟"},{"start":127.403,"end":127.983,"text":"法務部很重要"},{"start":157.499,"end":182.202,"text":"法務部很重要那其中本席有看到上一次我也提到就是說針對這個毒品氾濫的部分尤其是毒價也造成我們新北的這個所長的一個不幸往生的狀況那其中我們現在看到是說喪失毒品確實已經有在8月份的時候先列為三級毒品了那但是我們要問兩個部分一個"},{"start":183.383,"end":204.991,"text":"新興毒品掌握的狀況到底我們有沒有超前部署因為這個過去這個所謂的喪屍毒品已經快一年的時間沒有去做一個納管所以說現在才緊急八月份便列為三級毒品那從列毒品拖了一年大家也講是說這是不是有帶多一個狀況"},{"start":206.462,"end":212.346,"text":"那另外這麼容易取得的這樣新興毒品僅列三級你覺得夠嗎?"},{"start":214.241,"end":214.901,"text":"請要說明好不好"},{"start":245.481,"end":262.609,"text":"關於新興毒品其實法部有一套的監測機制它設在一個海高檢測平台它是向未來監測所以如果有一些新興毒品它還沒有列入我們毒品來管制的話我們透過監測機制達到一定程度的話就會回到我們的毒品審議委會"},{"start":263.049,"end":281.058,"text":"本席有看到而過去本席也知道有這樣的一個機制但現在我想請教全世界每年都會有這所謂的毒品報告聯合國出的目前2024年聯合國所出全世界的毒品有多少跟委員報告這個NPS就是全世界的毒品報告事實上也是我們的監測機制的範圍"},{"start":282.819,"end":283.58,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":313.079,"end":325.614,"text":"部長本席為什麼會提到這樣子因為我特別也去查了我們法務部的相關的新聞在2020年的時候有針對新興毒品的部分一口氣認列了299項毒品達到我們現在管制的638項毒品那目前有可能因為這是2020年的資料"},{"start":333.223,"end":333.363,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":351.244,"end":373.38,"text":"換言之還是一半當然不是說因為有一些毒品它有可能是只有在某些國家流行或氾濫可是我現在提醒的就是說因為這個上濕毒品的狀態就是一樣嘛就之前我們沒有把它列管進去而造成說它可能有部分的一個空窗期那當然我們已經在8月的時候已經把它列為三級毒品了可是本席要講的是"},{"start":374.601,"end":401.47,"text":"這樣子的一個機制有沒有能夠蓋精進或調整的空間尤其我們看到之前的新聞報導是有講是說法醫研究院研究所購買標準品的預算只有區區300萬我不知道現在有沒有增加那如果說只是幾百萬如果說只是因為研究所沒有新沒有錢沒有多餘的預算去購買毒品導致於說我們沒有對照組實驗組比較組而造成我們沒有辦法列管的話"},{"start":402.29,"end":402.61,"text":"委員會提供"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":977,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時17分）主席謝謝，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛是矯正署署長是不是？也一起好不好？"],["主席：周署長。"],["洪委員孟楷：我本來沒有打算要問這題啦！但是因為剛剛翁曉玲委員這樣子詢問，署長特別回復說也有建議受刑人陳水扁不要出席國慶大典，是不是？本來有想建議？"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄有建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：有建議，好，那請教除了國慶大典以外，我覺得更嚴重的事情是，陳水扁受刑人他現在每天都在主持節目，你知道嗎？我之前在司法法制委員會的時候就已經有質詢過了，甚至那個時候我是說民進黨籍立法委員，高雄、臺南想要拼2026市長的，也全部都輪番上陣去上他的政論節目、去上他的專訪。所以他從「四不」不受訪，變成是他現在主動訪問別人，臺中監獄有沒有曾經提過說要求他不能做這樣的行為？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，這個部分臺中監獄都有掌握，陳水扁有事先報告要邀請哪位，比如說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以他事先報告就可以通過？"],["周署長輝煌：我們是參酌醫囑……"],["洪委員孟楷：這跟之前「四不」的關係是完全背道而馳耶！當時「四不」有沒有醫囑的佐證？認為說他做這「四不」是醫生判定可以的或是不行的？"],["周署長輝煌：有的，所謂的「四不」是針對個案每一次活動的提示，臺中監獄也參酌醫囑，然後有必要會派員去蒐證。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在蒐證的結果怎麼樣？現在就是讓每一個要選舉的人都上他的專訪，暢所欲言，然後網路上都可以看到？這已經是醫學奇蹟了，臺灣司法的奇蹟、醫學的奇蹟。好啦！抱歉，這個真的是翁曉玲委員講，我才說如果我們還要這樣子矇著頭，然後埋在沙子裡面，全國國人真的都譁然，也對我們司法單位的公信力是大打折扣。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，這一次的國慶……"],["洪委員孟楷：還要講是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：容我簡要……"],["洪委員孟楷：我要質詢部長好不好？署長可以請回，謝謝。來，部長，法務部很重要，其中本席有看到，上一次我也提到針對毒品氾濫的部分，尤其是毒駕，也造成我們新北一位所長不幸往生，其中我們現在看到喪屍毒品確實已經有在8月份的時候先列為三級毒品了。但是我們要問兩個部分，第一個，新興毒品掌握的狀況，到底我們有沒有超前部署？因為過去這個所謂的喪屍毒品，已經快一年的時間沒有去做納管，所以說8月份才緊急列為三級毒品，列為毒品拖了一年，大家也說這是不是有怠惰的狀況？另外，這麼容易取得的新興毒品僅列三級，你覺得夠嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個新興毒品是不是要升級，從四級升三級或三級升二級，我們法務部有毒品審議的小組，委員會做一個討論，我想這部分如果說有人提出來，像這次剛才也有委員提到是不是要升級，這部分是可以做討論的，因為我不是委員，我是不是可以請次長來？"],["洪委員孟楷：簡要說明好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於新興毒品其實法務部有一套的監測機制，臺高檢有一個監測平臺，它是向未來監測，所以如果有一些新興毒品還沒有列入毒品管制，透過監測機制達到一定程度的話，就會回到我們的毒品審議委員會來……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席有看到，而過去本席也知道有這樣的一個機制，但現在我想請教，全世界每年都會有所謂的毒品報告，聯合國出的……"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前2024年聯合國所出全世界的毒品有多少？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個NPS，就是全世界的毒品報告，事實上也是我們監測機制的範圍之一，如果國際或者是相關的條約有把某一種毒品列為新興毒品、列入管制的話，本部就會把它蒐集，再進入我們的毒品審議委員會來審議，這個監測機制也是在我們的監測範圍之內。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，次長，你講的都是過程，但沒有回答本席的問題啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，最新列的我們都列入了，除非它是在上次毒品委員會之後又再重新列的，要不然目前為止新興的我們都把它列了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，本席為什麼會提到這樣子？因為我特別也去查了法務部的相關新聞，在2020年的時候，有針對新興毒品的部分一口氣認列了299項毒品，達到我們現在管制的638項毒品，因為這是2020年的資料，所以有可能2020到現在2024有陸續增加，但當時我們的資料查到是臺灣總共列管了六百多項的毒品，可是全世界聯合國的報告其實是高達將近一千兩百項。所以換言之還是一半，當然不是說……","因為有一些毒品它有可能是只有在某些國家流行或氾濫，可是我現在提醒的就是說，因為這個喪屍的狀態就是一樣嘛！之前我們沒有把它列管進去，而造成說它可能有部分的空窗期，當然我們已經在8月的時候把它列為三級毒品。可是本席要講的是，這樣子的一個機制有沒有能夠再精進或調整的空間？尤其我們看到之前的新聞報導有說，法醫研究所購買標準品的預算只有區區300萬，我不知道現在有沒有增加。如果說只是幾百萬，如果說只是因為研究所沒有錢、沒有多餘的預算去購買毒品，導致於我們沒有對照組、實驗組、比較組，而造成沒有辦法列管的話，我覺得幾百萬預算的部分，是不是應該要來做加強？部長，是不是您的態度……後續可以去做了解，再給本席一個書面報告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，這部分我們再做書面報告。"],["主席：謝謝……"],["洪委員孟楷：但你的態度是不是應該要支持？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然嘛！好不好？我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，請部長會後提供。","好，接下來有請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","有請羅明才委員，羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","有請林思銘委員，林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","有請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","有請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","有請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","有請傅崐萁委員，傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","有請賴士葆委員，賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","好，所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員謝龍介所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},{"id":"155702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30655b61d9f7e3204adfde4e273edfded79496f892b6d7a78c0aeaafce8f2c626cb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:10:40 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我是法律司司長封鎖原則上它是國家對國家隔離是從國際法上後面再發展出來的一個等於是概念式的用語那在實際上面它是會有一些區別而且執行封鎖跟執行隔離它執行的人也會有一點不一樣那細部的話我們看是不是在跟委員做一個"},{"start":506.803,"end":523.475,"text":"上次是有給我們針對封鎖的解釋就是透過軍事手段來圍困對手跟他的運輸補給但是在於隔離的部分這個部分可能就是灰色地帶我看CSS在6月的時候有出相關的討論他是說在透過海上交通的執勤執法"},{"start":524.235,"end":525.256,"text":"我只是補充就是說因為隔離跟封鎖我想封鎖是一個"},{"start":551.946,"end":572.154,"text":"國家對國家之間的一個概念如果他真正的實施這個所謂的封鎖的話那以現在這一次來講的話那他就要宣布進航區那相關的這些船艦或者是載空機要經過的話都都都要經過他的許可像這樣子的一個全面性的封鎖是形同宣告這個戰爭"},{"start":574.395,"end":599.959,"text":"那這樣子的一個舉動那這個就會進入到一個不只是影響台灣甚至影響到整個國際那隔離的這個部分他就會進行一個比較有限度的一個一個一個一個措施那比如說他是用執法的一個作為然後來用海警船的這個作為來進行相關的一些有限度的一些居宿然後或者是登檢的這樣子的一個作為"},{"start":600.579,"end":623.462,"text":"謝謝部長,再麻煩國防部可以給我們相關的我們的反制的做法那最後再問一題,謝謝趙偉那就是我們已經接到很多不管是各國的智庫或者是甚至各國的政要都提到說希望我們提升國防預算來展現防衛決心但是我想請教就是我們提升國防預算重點不是提升而已而是要構置什麼,要防禦什麼,要有什麼樣的能力,要維持什麼樣的能力"},{"start":623.982,"end":652.184,"text":"那這一次的中東局勢我們來看到說這個伊朗以色列還有這些他的這些那他不斷的在對以色列直接發動攻襲這次好像說最近一次是發動130枚飛彈那去瞄準三個軍事基地但是大部分的這個飛彈都被攔截起來那還有公民的冷靜還有遵循安全的指引包含我們剛剛提到的這些應用的方式沒有什麼樣死亡的案例我想請教這個部長現在我們的防空的系統有沒有辦法"},{"start":653.144,"end":655.005,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":672.47,"end":672.77,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告"},{"start":688.704,"end":688.804,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":707.532,"end":707.692,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時10分）您好，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：是，陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，請問這一次的環臺軍演，你認為跟先前幾次的大型軍演有什麼不同？他們主要的意圖是在封鎖、在拒止、在外島奪取、在登陸作戰，還是在網路攻擊、測試反應，還是以上皆是？"],["顧部長立雄：我想它本來過去相關的一些作為，包括聯合戰備警巡，本來就有一些您剛提到類似的操演科目，現在這一次是首次以遼寧號的艦載機進入我們的東部空域，當然單日空中的兵力架次是最高；另外就是海警執法的巡邏區域，在聯合利劍2024-A的部分主要是壓在東邊，今年就是擴及到臺海周邊，還有外島地區。此外，當然增加萬噸海警的船在東邊，所以整個的目的看起來應該就是要將臺海內水化、臺灣內政化。","另外，這一次的演訓只有一天啦，不過它配合輿論等認知攻防的手段，企圖加大威懾力度，來影響我們的民心士氣，我想這幾點大概應該是可以觀察出來。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，你覺得在這幾次軍演中，從2022年之後，然後到聯合利劍A、B之後，我們不講意圖，就在講他們經過多次的環島演訓之後，他們能力有沒有提高？整體協調的能力，還有跨軍種協調的能力，你覺得透過這樣的演練，中共在這些軍演之後其能力有沒有提高？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個聯合行動能力的評估，我們認為中國還是有很多要改進的，操演是一回事，到時候真正實戰指管通訊是一回事，因為操演是它準備好的一種模式來進行，但是真正進入作戰的時候，聯合作戰指管的部分還需要經過一番驗證。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，你覺得他們這些演練，對於國民來講，是不是想要讓我們民眾感受到不安？這一個部分，你覺得他們有沒有這樣的意圖？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說對臺灣嗎？還是？"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，對臺灣。"],["顧部長立雄：對臺灣當然是有施壓的這種味道，因為這樣的軍事恫嚇跟灰色地帶的襲擾，我想這已經是他們現在一貫、常常在做的一件事情。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，但是你覺得民眾有感受到不安嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得從國防部的立場，民眾應該要警惕這樣的敵情嚴峻。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯！我認為中共在頻繁、多次的環臺軍演，甚至是夜間操練，它希望把軍演常態化之後，反而不是要讓我們民眾感到不安，它的目的可能是讓我們民眾感到麻木，讓我們民眾習慣這樣子的演練，認為說這樣的演練不會對我們的生活造成影響，我們的股市還是繼續漲，我們的經濟還是繼續在維持蓬勃的發展，我認為這都是好事，我也認為我們國家的應對非常妥適，但是我認為民眾應對這樣子的軍演，必須要有風險意識。等一下我也會請教針對民眾的部分，是不是已經習慣中國的威脅，而生活照常，如果是這樣子，民眾的風險意識不夠的話，有什麼是國防部未來需要去協助的？我們要如何做好這樣的民防訓練？當我們沒有這樣的意識，我們就沒有這樣的動作嘛！"],["謝次長日升：委員好，我是情次室次長。針對剛剛委員所提問的問題，我們在前幾位委員的答詢裡面也回答到，我們把它歸類成一個複合式、灰色地帶的操作，這裡面有幾個重點，包含了我們所講的欺騙。當然我們所講的欺騙裡面、它用的手段裡面，包含剛剛委員所提醒到的，降低一般民眾百姓對環臺軍演會影響到他們生活的壓迫感。其實在灰色地帶裡面其中有一個特性，就是溫水煮青蛙，它希望民眾來習慣這樣子的狀況，好像只是針對國軍部分造成壓力，並不會改變民眾的日常生活。我想這些都是我們必須要用跨域的手段，配合其他部會共同來努力，提高我們國人針對他們這樣軍演對我們的影響。"],["陳委員冠廷：我必須強調，比方我們講以色列好了，他們不是不知道風險，他們不會把戰爭去敏感化，所以在每一個作用力的時候，就是當每次敵對勢力發動攻擊的時候，或者是佯裝發動攻擊的時候，他們都會有相應的動作，所以不是坐在這邊說我們不會發生任何事情，反正他們也不敢，他們是假設他們敢，而且他們真的會做。我還是建議，因為現在臺灣不管是各個部門，包含內政部可能是在Google上面搜尋有建立清單，讓民眾知道最近的民防避難設施在哪裡，或者是有一些細胞簡訊讓民眾知道飛彈來了，大家要注意安全，但是我們可以協調統合所有資訊，類似像以色列的後方司令部一個叫作Home Front Command的應用程式一樣，結合這些能力以色列的Home Front Command app可以即時提供安全。警報、發布官方指示及行動建議，也就是我們不是只有知道OK有這件事情發生，而是知道有事情發生之後我們該怎麼做，而且並不是來自民間的這些NGO等等，而是來自於官方的、國家的訊息，這樣才有公信力，且依照用戶的位置，還可以提出個人的警報，傳達官方正式的訊息，以避免戰爭時期或者是衝突時期的錯假亂訊息，我認為這是非常重要的。現在他們還可以直接應用到他們的電視上面，所以等於是跨世代，不是只有年輕的朋友們，甚至是70歲以上不太熟悉這些智慧型手機、智慧型平板應用的人，都可以得到這樣的資訊。我認為這可以由國防部擔任起領導協調的角色，把它全部整合起來，不用有時候找內政部的、看內政部的，有些時候是看另外部門的，我認為這是一個我們可以做的部分。","另外，我們剛才提到隔離跟封鎖，我想請教一下，我有特別去傳訊息，我們辦公室有請國防部來回應一下隔離跟封鎖之間的不同，還有國軍的應對跟作為，國防部是回應我們針對封鎖的部分。我想請教一下，針對隔離的說明，是不是可以簡單來跟我們分享一下？"],["謝次長日升：委員好。有關於隔離跟封鎖這兩個不同的態樣，或者是有什麼相似之處，這個部分在國防部裡面，包括我們的法律司跟情次室，整個國防部針對這兩個特別的部分，應該說在操作上面會有什麼樣的現象，國防部要怎麼樣來應處，針對這個部分，其實我們已經進行了一段時間，就法律上面的界定，是不是……"],["沈司長世偉：委員好，我是法律司司長。原則上封鎖是國家對國家，隔離是從國際法後面再發展出來的，等於是概念式的一個用語，在實際上面會有一些區別，而且執行封鎖跟執行隔離，其執行的人也會有一點不一樣，細部的話，我們看是不是再跟委員說明？"],["陳委員冠廷：上次有給我們針對封鎖的解釋，就是透過軍事手段來圍困對手跟其運輸補給，但是在隔離的部分，這個部分可能就是灰色地帶。我看CSIS在6月的時候有出相關的討論，它是說透過海上交通的執勤執法。"],["沈司長世偉：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：在這個部分，我是希望可不可以給我們法律上面，或者是把相關的報告給我們，因為我們只接收到封鎖的部分，但是在還沒有進入黑色地帶，而在灰色地帶的時候，隔離的部分我們該怎麼樣應處，這個部分是我們想要知道的，也不是只有我們想要知道，還有我們的盟國們也都想要知道我們怎麼樣面對這樣的挑戰。部長有什麼要補充的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我只是補充，針對隔離跟封鎖，我想封鎖是一個國家對國家之間的概念，如果它真正實施所謂封鎖，以現在這一次來講的話，它就要宣布禁航區，相關這些船艦或者是載空機要經過的話，都要經過它的許可。像這樣全面性的封鎖，形同宣告戰爭，這樣的舉動就會進入到一個狀況，不只是影響臺灣，甚至影響到整個國際。至於隔離的部分，就會進行一個比較有限度的措施，比如說，它是用執法的作為，然後用海警船的作為來進行一些相關有限度的拘束，或者是登檢這樣子的作為。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，再麻煩國防部給我們相關的資料，包括我們反制的作法。","最後再問一題，謝謝召委，我們已經接到很多資訊，不管是各國的智庫，甚至是各國的政要都提到了，希望我們提升國防預算來展現防衛決心，但是我想請教，我們提升國防預算的重點不只是要提升而已，而是要購置什麼、要防禦什麼、要有什麼樣的能力、要維持什麼樣的能力。這一次的中東局勢，我們看到伊朗還有這些surrogate，不斷的在對以色列直接發動攻擊，最近一次好像是發動130枚飛彈，去瞄準3個軍事基地，但是大部分的飛彈都被攔截下來，還有公民的冷靜，還有遵循安全的指引，包含我們剛剛提到的這些應用方式，所以沒有什麼樣的死亡案例。我想請教部長，現在我們的防空系統有沒有辦法，不管是維持我們的防空系統，在戰時還能夠維持我們的生產能力？我看我們現在不管是防空的、反艦的，還有反制飛彈的產能等等，有辦法在戰時繼續生產，去面對中共大規模的飛彈侵擾嗎？我們的防空儲備夠嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想這個就是能夠自主生產的重要性，而且這個涉及到初期它做火力打擊的時候，我們要怎麼樣來應處，然後用來節省後續它可能會有再一次的攻擊，之後能夠再進行反制等等。這些相關的部分，我們都有一個妥善的討論，然後來應處。我們畢竟是一個海島國家，所以我們的自主生產能力當然很重要，在相關應對它的攻擊，不管是幾周波的火力打擊，這個部分我們如何能夠保存，然後來進行反制，這也是在研討範圍之內，但是因為這部分相關具體的作為事涉機敏，可能不適宜在這裡公開。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。倒是那個quarantine跟blockade，因為現在國際有關注這兩個部分，我看了下禮拜的議程，也許我們到時候可以來討論。","接下來處理臨時提案，總共有兩個提案，請議事人員宣讀第一案。","一、","因應高齡化社會，整體護理人力需求增加，男性護理人員服兵役期間須中斷其護理專業工作，退伍後重返職場亦需時間適應醫療環境，建議「具護理師證照役男優先分發國軍醫院服役」，除增加國軍醫院護理人力，役男服役期間亦可持續精進護理專業技術，甚或志願留任國軍醫院服務。建請國防部於二個月內提出研議方案，提報立法院外交及國防委員會。","提案人：王定宇","連署人：羅美玲　　陳永康　　林憶君　　沈伯洋　　林楚茵　　洪申翰　　陳冠廷"],["主席：本席先做臨時提案的概要說明，也謝謝本委員會全部各黨派都有參與連署。第一個，適才適用。我也感謝國防部，我印象是在邱國正部長的任內，我們有提過醫科學生當兵去當步槍兵真的是浪費了，不是浪費他當醫生，而是我們部隊需要人才的訓練，我就不用另外再訓練EMT，包括EMT-1、EMT-2、EMT-P，護理人員也一樣，因為我後來去查了，我們現在護理學校護理系畢業的男性人數其實已經有數千人了，所以在服役期間，他的專長就是護理，適才適用，縮減我們訓練的成本，也提高他服役時期工作表現的效能，退伍以後，更可以建構全民防衛的韌性，所以以上是本席提案的原因，希望能夠讓具護理師證照的役男可以根據他這樣的專長，優先分發在軍醫單位服役。我不知道現場委員有沒有其他意見？主管機關有沒有意見？"],["楊次長基榮：報告召委，援例由我率業管來回答這個臨時提案。依據剛剛委員會提出的這個臨時提案，我們初步評估14所國軍軍醫院的能量是具有可行性的，所以我們不做文字上的修正。"],["主席：好，按照國防部文字修正後照案通過。我給你兩個月時間研議，這樣好不好？"],["楊次長基榮：是，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝常次。","第二案，請宣讀。","二、","職業軍人雖屬廣義公務員，惟工作屬性與公務員有本質上不同，且受「陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例」等相關法規規範，有限階限年退伍的規定。","由於職業軍人退伍年齡多為青壯年，國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會為協助媒合退伍袍澤投入社會，順利銜接第二職涯，積極建置「退除役官兵軍民專長轉銜作業」系統，期能協助退伍袍澤發揮最大轉職效益。","緣此，國防部「公餘進修」政策也應與時俱進，適時轉型，不應再以補助學習經費為前提宣導「攻讀與職、業務有關學位或技術證照為主」限制進修空間，鼓勵所屬官兵不論與職、業務有無關聯性或有無補助，均應妥善利用公餘時間，積極學習進修，且官兵個人可將公餘進修所獲得之學位、證照、檢定、證明等學習成果向人事部門申請核准登載於兵籍資料並確實完成電子兵資線傳，俾利官兵退伍後國防部可將電子兵資提供國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會運用，協助退伍官兵媒合專長順利就業，期能無縫接軌第二職涯。","惟為避免全面開放「公餘進修」美意遭濫用，有關公餘進修學習經費補助及與職、業務有無關聯之人事運用認定仍依相關規定辦理，上述與職、業務無關聯之學位、證照、檢定、證明等僅登載於兵籍資料作為退伍後媒合就業之運用，不得作為現役期間派職、晉任等人事運用之依據。請國防部於二個月內，將「國軍軍職人員公餘進修實施規定」及「陸海空軍兵籍資料管理及查證作業規定」相關條文提出修正，提報立法院外交及國防委員會，並積極向所屬官兵宣導將此前所獲得之學位、證照、檢定、證明等資料儘速申請登載於兵籍資料（含電子兵資），俾利將現役及退伍兩階段完整銜接落實全職涯規劃，嘉惠全體官兵。","提案人：王定宇","連署人：羅美玲　　林憶君　　沈伯洋　　洪申翰　　林楚茵　　陳冠廷"],["主席：好，謝謝。本席做臨時提案概要說明，首先，感謝本委員會跨黨派也都連署提案，在此概要說明，第一個，由於退輔會有一個退除役官兵專長訓練轉銜作業，然後我們這邊有電子兵資，關於我們所有職業軍人在退伍的時候怎麼樣去銜接第二春繼續就業的部分，因為職業軍人退役的時候，多數都還相當年輕，現有的規定是要按照他的職、業務有關的才會列在他的兵資，但我們希望非有關的部分，可以擴大他學習的動力，他自己利用公餘來學習，學習之後取得證照、取得相關專長之後，我們相關單位應該要把它列入電子兵資線傳的內容。但是為了避免我們補助款或者是晉升、派任時的困擾，我提案最後一項還特別提到我們補助的審查與否，就按照現有規定，他自己想要多學，比方說他是裝甲兵，他想要學烹飪、學廚藝，那跟現有的業務專長不同，他可以去學，也可以拿到證照，我們也把它納入兵資系統裡面，方便退輔會後面銜接的訓練跟第二專長的派任，這樣才不會我在部隊學的軍事專長，到了民間卻沒辦法用。另外，像派任、晉升等運用之依據，都遵照原規定，避免影響我們現有的體制。以上是我們提案的案由，不知道我們在場委員有沒有意見？沒有意見，請部裡面說明。"],["楊次長基榮：報告召委及各位委員，鼓勵官兵進修取得相關學位跟證照，這一向是我們國防部的政策，而且我們有很積極的作法。至於委員會的臨時提案，有關登錄兵表、進修的學習經費補助仍維持與職務有關，避免美意遭到濫用，以及派職、晉任、軍事學資這些運用等等，經審視之後，我們會按照委員會的臨時提案下去研修，文字部分不修改。"],["主席：好，所以兵籍資料線傳要照這個作法。","以上兩個提案原則上照案通過，但文字修正授權國防部陸軍常次調整處理。","我們現在休息5分鐘，待會繼續進行詢答。","休息（11時30分）","繼續開會（11時36分）"],["主席：我們恢復開會。在進行委員詢答前，本席再次宣告，因為我們一開始的宣告有委員沒聽到。因為禮拜四國防部有軍談，即總統府專案會議，所以待會12點整，顧立雄部長、副總長執行官、全動署以及情次室、作計室前往參加會議，但都會有代理人，副部長會代理，在場的三位委員應該都問得到，但我還是要宣告一下。","我們接下來請賴士葆委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306582b82f79ffa149edbc7d127954dabfa196f892b6d7a78c0a1a9e1ce118e8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知道說勞動部針對這個你們未來要怎麼去解決甚至最近幾天有人跟我講說某一個地方"},{"start":92.049,"end":116.849,"text":"這個工廠它用了十幾個失聯移工然後它有報案、它有檢舉結果可能這個專勤隊或是什麼就應該也知道有這個狀況所以我知道說這個問題確實是非常的嚴重那我認為就是說不論是內政部也好或者是我覺得勞動部應該要去正視這個問題"},{"start":118.85,"end":145.305,"text":"怎麼樣讓這些失聯移工讓他未來不要一直躲在這個陰暗的角落怎麼樣讓他變成合法或者是說怎麼樣讓他如果他真的是非法那是不是要讓他出去所以我覺得這個問題要解決啦要不然你失聯移工真的確實越來越多對台灣確實也不是很好"},{"start":145.805,"end":149.706,"text":"是,那我不知道說勞動部針對這一部分,你們要怎麼介紹?謝謝委員,確實是講到這個您來自那個我想彰化地區那個地方我覺得在我們農村尤其是我們農村真的是勞動力很缺乏"},{"start":161.37,"end":165.693,"text":"對,所以我們從去年開了一萬兩千名的農業的移工我們在最新的九月二十幾號的跨國勞動力的審查上面我們又再增加了給八千個名額所以現在已經累計有兩萬個農業移工的名額我們允許他進來了"},{"start":181.903,"end":199.912,"text":"那麼我們一方面希望透過這種增加正常就是正式的這樣的合法的移工的這樣的數量然後逐漸的把原來在農村裡面的失聯移工能夠逐漸的把它稀釋掉啦那你這樣子之後有比較有比較改善嗎有有有改善蠻多的對"},{"start":203.154,"end":231.93,"text":"那其次是委員跟委員報告您講的原來的失聯移工的是否讓他就地轉正啊這確實是一個社會上有在討論的議題那委員這我們其實目前我們正在也在考慮這討論這一個就業服務法的修正關於這一個失聯移工的這一個就地轉正的是否啦是否就地轉正的這個議題我們也正在思考當中"},{"start":232.35,"end":248.82,"text":"我覺得要去正視這個問題要不然它這個數字就是一直在那邊整個社會上就確實有這樣的失聯移工在那裡而且我相信很多人都知道這些失聯移工在哪裡只是可能地方也許有勞務的需求"},{"start":252.182,"end":267.724,"text":"所以我覺得真的確實要去正視啦另外一個議題就是我們剛剛有幾位委員有特別提到就是我們這個女性移工進來之後她如果懷孕那懷孕之後確實有時候她如果"},{"start":268.625,"end":289.172,"text":"顧主他會覺得說我原本是要你是有勞動力的移工進來幫忙的那你現在懷孕之後可能就會有一些狀況那也許會不會就因為這樣子然後被解雇那我希望就是說這個問題確實也存在我之前碰到一位顧主"},{"start":290.632,"end":306.442,"text":"他就請了女性的移工嘛那她就懷孕了那懷孕之後其實這個女性移工她自己也很會保護自己啦她就跟老闆說她懷孕了那確實也真的懷孕了那懷孕之後她說她原本的工作她不能再做"},{"start":307.563,"end":307.884,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":327.499,"end":348.393,"text":"那你現在這樣子我工廠裡面就少了一個人力那你還這樣子我讓你做最輕鬆的工作你還這樣子所以我覺得這個勞動部應該也要去正視這樣的問題未來如果這樣子的狀況那僱主應該也有權利來保障他自己的權益當然就是委員"},{"start":350.454,"end":363.528,"text":"我覺得就是說在這個方面我們也要強調啦雙方可以合一解約的那麼合一解約我們會提供給牢固雙方同時的法律輔助啦我們未來這麼做就是說"},{"start":365.79,"end":388.544,"text":"除了保護移工的合法的權利之外我們對雇主的這樣的聘僱權也是也應該要有所那個幫助目前有對我們也是要應該要可以告訴雇主就是說這是可以合意解約的那麼就是說他因為他合意解約事實上其實"},{"start":390.05,"end":404.744,"text":"如果他說他不做了嘛他不做了嘛那那個部分的話像這種個案我跟委員報告因為這種情況確實實務上存在因為雙方都其實都不可規則"},{"start":405.925,"end":435.259,"text":"那現在其實地方政府因為透過勞資的協調其實大部分就是雙方就是合意解約了那合意解約可能僱主不會影響因為他就是想說他解約完他的那個名額還是保留他可以繼續聘沒有問題那移工本身因為他是懷孕那基本上我們因為性別平等公務法還是要保障所以如果必要我們就會有安置保護那等到確定他可以工作的時候就轉換僱主這雙方的權益都把它確保"},{"start":436.34,"end":459.82,"text":"當然我們今天會特別討論這個就是說女性的移工她在台灣的權益我們當然是保護嘛那如果說對雇主也是造成一些困擾的話我覺得雇主的權益我們也是要把他兼顧啊所以我們當然就是說勞動部針對這一部分我們也希望其實很多人會覺得說為什麼現在失聯的移工這麼多"},{"start":461.281,"end":477.349,"text":"事業移工這麼多那正式的有的要聘僱的話確實有一些困難比如說現在一些這個鄉下地區可能到了農忙的時候他如果要再去申請一個勞僱那個移工的話確實有時候會覺得還蠻麻煩的"},{"start":478.51,"end":484.577,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就 «如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能、行政院人事行政總處就"},{"start":495.129,"end":505.193,"text":"從疫情之後失聯移工已經到8萬多人這真的是太可怕了不過委員其實現在失聯移工是下降的我們過去疫情期間都有3%到4%現在只有2%有下降有下降"},{"start":509.394,"end":510.275,"text":"兼顧移工權益、保障移工權益"},{"start":525.13,"end":539.917,"text":"讓他可以在原本的僱主那邊可以好好的工作而不是因為任何的問題然後就逃跑這個我覺得這個是我們勞動部需要去做的另外我要今天要另外一個議題就是公務單位的這個勞工"},{"start":541.218,"end":564.477,"text":"公務單位裡面的勞工的權益問題就是說我想知道就是說像部長你的司機也好他應該也是這個勞保勞基法公有司機都是適用勞基法那我想請教就是說在我們的這個公務單位裡面的勞工如果"},{"start":565.978,"end":592.099,"text":"這個單位他可能有一些關係那不需要這個勞工了那你們有這種之前就是說非自願離職有那種非自願離職對機關內的適用勞基法的這種勞工他的非自願離職的處理是嗎是你們有這種非自願離職的處理嗎我知道好像全部都是要求他們要自願離職"},{"start":596.508,"end":603.876,"text":"能不能請人總夫人市長這邊是不是可以先有一些回答,我再來補充"},{"start":608.294,"end":632.388,"text":"是,報告委員,因為移工工友他還是適用勞基法,像這種管理措施還是按照勞基法的規定來走是,那現在機關裡面的勞工,機關裡面的勞工如果他非自願離職可是機關,目前好像是機關都是以自願離職的方式請勞工來簽"},{"start":635.249,"end":645.561,"text":"目前是不是這樣?一般機關裡面當然都希望勞工可以留下來比較不會有時候讓他廢置業離職有時候因為首長更換嘛跟著首長進來的"},{"start":652.061,"end":674.383,"text":"那個公友不會像那個跟隨所長進來啊?不會,他機要才會對,沒有,我講的就是說公務單位裡面的勞工就是說目前我們的狀況我們目前的狀況好像就我所知啦就只有自願離職,沒有那種非自願離職是不是有這種狀況?"},{"start":677.434,"end":694.893,"text":"這個目前我們是沒有去調查這些狀況你們沒有去調查這種狀況嗎那是不是可以請這個這個富人市長或是勞動部就機關裡面的勞工好的勞工勞動權益是不是就這部分可以做一些調查好我們去了解一下可以嗎"},{"start":701.909,"end":715.42,"text":"夫人市長你先回座我想請這個部長就剛剛淑芬委員也有特別提到我們治理機關裡面的這個勞務承攬的這樣的一個工作這個薪資都比"},{"start":719.783,"end":744.921,"text":"當然就是說勞動部是要保障所有的勞工的權益不論是你一般的這種勞工或者是公務單位裡面的勞工我覺得這個都是我們這個勞動部要去保障的所以我也希望就是說我們今天提出來這些議題希望部長能夠正視那我剛剛講的公務機關裡面的勞動勞工的權益的這個部分我也希望你能夠做一個調查"},{"start":745.461,"end":765.74,"text":"可以嗎?好,我來跟人總商量好嗎?是我來跟人總商量,看要怎麼處理因為委員,他那裡面齁公務機關裡面有這種職籍關係他未必會適用勞基法裡面的那樣的勞資不是啊,那他就是勞工怎麼會說沒有適用就是所有的勞工就適用勞基法嗎?"},{"start":767.121,"end":787.218,"text":"對,可是因為在公務機關裡面那個文化是不一樣的沒有這樣的啦我們跟人總來商量好不好,看誰來處理所有的勞工就是適用勞基法嘛那你當然公務單位不是委員,這我要取得行政院這邊的諒解或是人總的同意我才能去介入這樣的東西"},{"start":790.441,"end":807.562,"text":"你是勞動部部長也是保障所有勞工的權益的最高主管每一個機關裡面雖然勞工是適用勞基法可是他的這樣子的包括他的薪資方面各方面是看他的機關的決定"},{"start":809.383,"end":809.603,"text":"好,好,好,謝謝"},{"start":839.824,"end":846.007,"text":"好,謝謝黃學光委員的發言謝謝部長我們下一位請郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":722,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時6分）謝謝主席，我們請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我首先就現在移工的問題來請教部長，其實我們在基層看到很多外籍移工或者是落跑移工，這樣講啦，尤其是在鄉下地區養雞、養豬，可能都有失聯移工去幫忙。確實，因為有時候這些農場他們需要人力嘛，所以他們有的真的用了這些失聯移工。我們看到目前臺灣的移工人數也將近八十萬人，而失聯移工有八萬七千多人，如果照這樣算有十分之一的移工進來，然後他可能就跑走了。像這樣的問題，我不知道勞動部針對這個未來要怎麼去解決？甚至這幾天，有人跟我講某一個地方，工廠用了十幾個失聯移工，然後他有報案、有檢舉，結果專勤隊應該也知道有這個狀況，所以我知道這個問題確實是非常的嚴重。我認為不論是內政部或者勞動部，我覺得應該要去正視這個問題，怎麼樣讓這些失聯移工未來不要一直躲在陰暗的角落，怎麼樣讓他變成合法的，或者如果他真的是非法，是不是要讓他出去？所以我覺得這個問題要解決啦！要不然失聯移工確實越來越多，對臺灣也不是很好，我不知道勞動部針對這一部分你們要怎麼解決？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員，委員確實講到……您來自彰化地區，我覺得在我們農村，尤其是我們農村，真的是勞動力很缺乏，所以我們從去年開了1萬2,000名農業的移工，我們在最新九月二十幾號跨國勞動力的審查上面，我們又再增加8,000個名額，所以現在已經累計有2萬個農業移工的名額，我們允許他進來了。我們一方面希望透過增加正式的、合法的移工的數量，然後逐漸的把原來在農村裡面的失聯移工，能夠逐漸的把他稀釋掉啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣子之後，有比較改善嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有，有改善。"],["黃委員秀芳：有比較改善？"],["何部長佩珊：有，改善滿多的。其次跟委員報告，您講的原來失聯移工是否讓他就地轉正？這確實是一個社會上在討論的議題。委員，其實目前我們也正在考慮討論就業服務法的修正，關於失聯移工是否就地轉正的議題，我們也正在思考當中。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我覺得要正視這個問題，要不然數字就一直在那邊。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：社會上確實有這樣的失聯移工存在，而且我相信很多人都知道這些失聯移工在哪裡……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：可能地方有勞務的需求。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得真的確實要去正視啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外一個議題，剛剛有幾位委員特別提到女性移工進來之後如果懷孕，懷孕之後確實有雇主會覺得原本移工是有勞動力、是進來幫忙的，懷孕之後可能就會有一些狀況，也許會因為這樣被解僱，這個問題確實也存在。我之前碰到一位雇主，他請了女性移工，女性移工就懷孕了，其實這位移工也很會保護自己，她就跟老闆說她懷孕了，她也確實懷孕了，懷孕之後她說：她原本的工作不能再做。所以老闆就說：妳可以做一些比較輕鬆的工作，可能是打掃等。但她說：這個工作不在她的工作範圍內。所以這位女性移工也讓……"],["何部長佩珊：這位雇主也是非常……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這位女性移工讓雇主火冒三丈……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以他會覺得，這樣他工廠裡面就少了一個人力，移工還這樣子，讓移工做最輕鬆的工作還這樣子……我覺得勞動部應該要正視這樣的問題，未來如果有這樣的狀況，雇主應該也有權利來保障自己的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，委員，我覺得我們在這方面也要強調雙方是可以合意解約的，若合意解約，我們會提供給勞雇雙方同時的法律扶助，我們未來會這麼做，除了保護移工的合法權利之外，我們對雇主的聘僱權也應該要有所幫助。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以目前，是不是要請署長……"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們也應該要告訴雇主這是可以合意解約的。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，他可以怎麼做，如果說……"],["何部長佩珊：因為合意解約事實上……如果他說他不做了，像這種個案……我請署長講一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為這種情況確實實務上存在，因為雙方其實都不可歸責……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["蔡署長孟良：現在地方政府透過勞資的協調，其實雙方大部分就合意解約了，合意解約可能對雇主不會影響，因為他解約完的名額還是保留，他可以繼續聘，沒有問題。因為移工本身是懷孕，基本上依性別平等工作法還是要保障，所以如果必要，我們就會有安置保護。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["蔡署長孟良：等到確定她可以工作之後就轉換雇主。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["蔡署長孟良：雙方的權益都確保，不會影響。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，今天會特別討論這個就是我們當然是保護女性移工在臺灣的權益，如果對雇主造成一些困擾的話，我覺得雇主的權益也是要兼顧啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是、是，當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我希望勞動部針對這部分……其實很多人會覺得，為什麼現在失聯的移工這麼多？正式要聘僱確實有一些困難，譬如現在一些鄉下地區到了農忙的時候，如果要再去申請一個移工，確實有時候會覺得還滿麻煩的，說實在的，有的可能知道哪裡有失聯移工，他們就自己去聘了，所以我覺得問題確實是存在……"],["何部長佩珊：是、是。"],["黃委員秀芳：我希望勞動部要確實正視這個問題。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為從疫情之後，失聯移工已經到八萬多人，這真的是太可怕了。"],["何部長佩珊：不過，委員，其實現在失聯移工是下降的，過去疫情期間都有3%到4%，現在只有2%。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：有下降、有下降。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：慢慢的會更下降，我們也希望透過引進農村的移工，就是我剛剛講的，已經有2萬名進來了，我們希望能夠透過這樣的方式慢慢降低。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們兼顧移工的權益、保障移工的權益，讓他可以在原本雇主那邊好好工作，而不是因為任何的問題逃跑，我覺得是勞動部需要做的。"],["何部長佩珊：是，好。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，今天還有另外一個議題，就是公務單位裡面的勞工權益問題。我想知道，像部長你的司機也好，他應該也是勞保……"],["何部長佩珊：勞基法，他適用勞基法。"],["黃委員秀芳：勞基法嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：工友、司機都適用勞基法。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我想請教的是，在公務單位裡面的勞工，如果單位可能因為一些關係不需要這個勞工了，你們有資遣？就是非自願離職，有那種……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你是指機關內的？"],["黃委員秀芳：對，機關內的。"],["何部長佩珊：適用勞基法的勞工，他們非自願離職的處理是嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：是，你們有這種非自願離職的處理嗎？我知道的好像全部都是要求他們自願離職。"],["何部長佩珊：我不知道能不能請人總一起？"],["黃委員秀芳：好啊！"],["何部長佩珊：人總副人事長這邊是不是可以先回答？我再來補充。"],["李副人事長秉洲：報告委員，因為技工、工友還是適用勞基法，所以現在這種管理措施還是按照勞基法的規定來走。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，現在機關裡面的勞工如果非自願離職，好像機關都是以自願離職的方式請勞工來簽，目前是不是這種狀況？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般機關當然都希望勞工可以留下來，不會讓他非自願離職，都拜託他們……"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有，有時候因為首長更換，跟著首長進來的……"],["李副人事長秉洲：工友不會跟隨首長進來，機要才會。"],["黃委員秀芳：我講的是公務單位裡面的勞工，就我所知，目前的狀況好像就只有自願離職，沒有非自願離職，是不是有這種狀況？"],["李副人事長秉洲：目前我們沒有去調查這些狀況……"],["黃委員秀芳：你們沒有去調查這種狀況，是不是可以請副人事長或是勞動部就機關內勞工的勞動權益做一些調查？"],["李副人事長秉洲：好，我們去瞭解。"],["黃委員秀芳：可以嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：是，可以。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，副人事長先回座。我想請部長，剛剛淑芬委員也特別提到，你們自己機關內勞務承攬的工作，薪資都比其他……這也是低薪啦，勞動部當然是要保障所有勞工的權益，不論是一般的勞工，或者是公務單位裡面的勞工，我覺得都是勞動部要去保障的，所以我也希望我們今天提出來的這些議題部長能夠正視。我剛剛講的公務機關裡面的勞工權益，我也希望你們能夠做相關調查，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我來跟人總商量好嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：我來跟人總商量看看要怎麼處理，因為公務機關裡面有職級關係，未必會適用勞基法那樣的勞資……"],["黃委員秀芳：不是啊，他就是勞工，怎麼會沒有適用？所有的勞工都適用勞基法嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對，可是在公務機關裡面的文化是不一樣的。"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有這樣的啦。"],["何部長佩珊：我們跟人總來商量好不好，看如何處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：所有的勞工，就是適用勞基法，當然公務單位……"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我要取得行政院這邊的諒解，或是人總的同意，我才能去介入。"],["黃委員秀芳：你是勞動部部長，也是保障所有勞工權益的最高主管。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我在報告裡面也有講，每一個機關裡面，雖然勞工是適用勞基法，可是他的薪資還有各方面是看他的機關決定，因為公務機關裡面也有不一樣的……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以剛剛淑芬委員為什麼會講，勞動部自己本身就是帶頭低薪啊！"],["何部長佩珊：勞動部這邊我一定會去改善，像勞發署我是可以馬上去改善他的低薪。"],["黃委員秀芳：你是勞動部部長，你應該也要去要求各機關，你開出來的這個缺，承攬業務的這個缺，你不可以低薪嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：我們會建議行政院好不好？"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言，謝謝部長。我們下一位請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065888697cc4626d416bc7d127954dabfa196f892b6d7a78c0a31728d78b6cecfc35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:54:25 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謝謝主席那請一下我們何部長好 有請何部長你好部長我請問一下那個中鋼旗下有一個百分之百持股的子公司叫中鋼運通你知不知道這家公司"},{"start":29.965,"end":48.913,"text":"因為他這個針對勞工爭議的問題之前也要上媒體好像上個禮拜也有到勞動部去抗議他們說從7月開始他們就被中斷了傳言的勞健保而且長時間也不再派任他們到"},{"start":50.014,"end":54.358,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」"},{"start":71.85,"end":92.887,"text":"呃那個這個跟定期或不定期無關我們那個他那個勞保主要是他那個勞保中斷保的問題啦那因為我們當時呃勞保局有確實明確的告訴他在下船的時候就是必須去別的地方加保不能再嘿就是就就"},{"start":94.188,"end":120.785,"text":"就是沒有契約關係啦因為這個部分之前我們那個交通委員魯明哲委員也有去詢問過局長所以他說也很明確講他這個航港局並沒有行政指導說一定要用定期的契約是由勞資雙方來決議那現在我想請問一下我們今天是勞保司司長來嘛是吧"},{"start":122.708,"end":148.083,"text":"我們市長對那你看一下針對中鋼運通其實他一直以來在今年7月之前他的勞健保都是一直持續加保不管這個船員是在岸還是離岸一直都在投保的對不對他這個是對沒有錯那也表示說是他們資方主動替他們加保了"},{"start":148.303,"end":173.448,"text":"所以也表示中央運通一直都有在持續加保也就是說他一直都有持續加保所以他一直都保有這個勞僱關係是沒有問題的吧他的勞僱關係不在我們界定的範圍對但是他一直都有保勞健保嘛所以他今天如果要到別家公司加保是不是一定也要從這邊退保所以他一直都在這邊保勞健保是沒有錯的啊"},{"start":174.168,"end":203.032,"text":"對那個是他們確實有存在這樣的狀態所以一直有保勞健保所以他這個勞僱關係難道不存在嗎一直在那邊保勞健保那是兩件事那是兩件事我們只管勞保條例這個部分好那重點所以他一直有保勞健保那對中央運動這些員工來講他認為他們這個是不定期契約我們這樣看起來也是蠻合理的啊不委員他們是定期契約或不定期契約不是勞動部界定的"},{"start":204.379,"end":214.767,"text":"那是航港局就船員法他們自己本身因為特別法優於普通法啦他不是我勞基法主管的範圍啦那勞動企業的認定難道不是勞動部的職責嗎不是就是這個船員的勞動企業是船員法這個特別法去認定的他的主管機關認定的不是我"},{"start":229.304,"end":248.412,"text":"所以傳言法不是對傳言法是交通部航港局主管的那可是他這個是勞工啊他也算是勞工啊對他是勞工沒有錯可是他不是勞基法我這邊管的員工啦我管勞工啦那所以勞基法第9條你的意思說勞基法這個第9條這個勞動契約的規範"},{"start":252.908,"end":280.665,"text":"不包含傳援這些勞工嗎?第9條是一個普遍的陳述嘛它是定期契約跟不定期契約的陳述傳援法它會有它的特別規定我再講一遍法律原則是特別法優於普通法所以傳援法優於勞基法優先適用於傳援所以傳援它的勞僱關係的界定必須從傳援法去處理那它這個傳援法它一直保有這個勞健保難道它不算它的勞工嗎?"},{"start":281.704,"end":301.181,"text":"啊?不算誰的勞工?不算中鋼運通的勞工嗎?他是中鋼運通的勞工啊可是他跟中鋼運通之間的勞僱關係如何?那是交通部、航港局依據傳言法要去認定的,不是我那他現在找勞動部,勞動部沒有辦法幫他處理這個事情嗎?因為我們,而且他們都在訴訟中,我們只能關懷"},{"start":303.642,"end":329.895,"text":"所以我請問一下我們勞動部有明確的告知中鋼運通說他們是不屬於我們勞動部管轄認定的嗎有啊我們在勞保這個關於他斷保的事情我們很明確的告訴他們你下了船你就是關於勞保這件事因為他只有主動問我們勞保這件事而已對我們有告訴他下了船就是那個就是要去別的地方加保啊"},{"start":330.655,"end":344.883,"text":"我們這是有明確告訴中央運動的對啊所以他這個定期契約不定期契約我們勞動部沒有辦法貫典不是我這邊管轄的範圍啦那所以我們勞基法第9條第一項勞動契約這個認定不包含他們囉"},{"start":346.497,"end":365.248,"text":"對阿是阿因為這是一個普通法我們勞基法是一個普通法所以我的意思是說他要依據傳言法去看是否傳言法有去定義他的定期契約或不定期契約所以他們上禮拜去抗議的時候我們勞動部有明確告知他們說這些傳言"},{"start":368.571,"end":386.753,"text":"針對勞動企業的認定,傳言法是不是由勞動部來...我們都...面對他們都講得很清楚,因為我們必須依法行政,那真的是我們的困難。他一直要求我們要...要求中央運動無條件地去幫他們付薄喔,那事實上不是我能處理的。"},{"start":387.874,"end":413.535,"text":"所以我現在也希望說勞動部針對這一部分針對他們的權責各方面認定與否希望能夠很明確告知他們不然他們一直都認定說這個勞動契約應該也是由勞動部主管機關來認定不管是定期不定期勞動部應該是要去認定不然你如何去執行後面有沒有定期契約跟不定期契約的問題嗎"},{"start":416.057,"end":436.512,"text":"這個我們跟他們講過啦,其實講過耶所以我希望部長很明確的告知,不然他們變成到這一部分,他們一直認為說勞動部基本上在推卸責任,變成勞動部針對這勞基法,定期契約跟不定期契約都沒有辦法去認定,居然交給法院去認定"},{"start":438.612,"end":459.449,"text":"好那這部分我希望還是說清楚講明白也不要搞得曖昧不清沒有曖昧不清其實我們講得很清楚好謝謝謝謝那還有針對我們勞保年金我們現在看這個勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大那也看一下明年度我們是不是預計一樣要撥補1300億元"},{"start":463.456,"end":466.158,"text":"然後這6年來我們看一下我們6年我們勞動部撥補預算金大概達到3870億然後部長在接受訪問的時候也有講說要持續撥補確保制度的持續穩健運作所以"},{"start":486.697,"end":509.696,"text":"這樣也意味著我們往後這個撥補應該就是變成常態化了是的對嘛那如果如果居然已經撥補是常態化那而且我們現在朝野很多立委其實不分藍綠都已經有提案希望把這個撥補法制化那部長你支持這個撥補法制化嗎我支持啊"},{"start":510.666,"end":525.952,"text":"所以部長也願意嘛那我想了解一下當然是支持的不過我要跟委員就是說撥補法制的話我們已經在實踐了那我請問一下行政院現在有提自己的法案版本嗎"},{"start":526.952,"end":552.149,"text":"委員 我們用行政作為在實踐的那立法院的要修法案我們都支持都支持嗎?所以各委員提的版本其實基本上部長也都希望支持希望法治化我只支持那單一條文希望法治化就是政府附最終撥補責任那一條而已其他我保留所以我們也希望召委能夠盡快來排審"},{"start":553.959,"end":559.604,"text":"這個只有那一條我是在建立我希望委員您能夠幫忙我們也不要因為省的那一條砍年金的訴求又出來然後又要我們砍年金這我們幫不到我是說針對撥補常態化居然已經是常態化已經是每年在做"},{"start":575.757,"end":590.535,"text":"所以我們說居然是常態化就寧可這樣我們就修改給它法制化嘛如果只有那一條是OK的對 針對法制化所以針對法制化如果法制化通過部長也當然也希望我們都能夠編列預算進去"},{"start":592.037,"end":603.225,"text":"那就是 那就取決於政府的財政能力了就不要常常都用撥補 法制化的目的就是編列預算委員 那是同一件事政府負最終撥補責任就是撥補的這一個預算"},{"start":607.709,"end":627.004,"text":"我們現在已經在實踐了但是我的意思是說不要每年都用撥補的嘛你為什麼不給他法制化沒有就是撥補啊對啊就編列預算進去嘛對啊法制化就是編列預算那我早就已經在編預算了對啊所以基本上也支持我們委員提案給他法制化嘛"},{"start":627.584,"end":646.641,"text":"這個我是支持的我只是說單一那一條而已就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條所以我們現在擔心不要到時候法制化你看現在我們也覺得搞不清楚啊你看禁法補償也已經通過法制化通過以後也不編預算會不會到時候我們這個"},{"start":648.657,"end":666.447,"text":"這個法治化以後他這預算萬一不編列的話怎麼辦啊不可能啦委員你想想看沒有法治化我們都在撥補了更何況是法治化所以一定會撥補嘛對不對一定會一定會不管有沒有入法我們都有在一定會常態性撥補對啊所以我們是真的是希望就是委員我真的在強調"},{"start":667.708,"end":686.816,"text":"不要因為修了這一條,又要我們砍年金啦,這個沒有沒有,我們就是針對,我們是希望這個撥補給他,既然你已經說是常態,我們就給他正常法制化,也希望這個經費都能夠正常來運作,所以當然也要編列啊,對不對?"},{"start":688.016,"end":702.849,"text":"當然一定所以我們真的也為我們廣大的勞工來感謝部長啦也希望能夠實施我們賴總統捍衛勞工的決心希望這個部分我們能夠給他盡快法制化好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝部長謝謝圖文委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時54分）好，謝謝主席，請一下我們何部長。"],["主席：好，有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我請問一下，中鋼旗下有一個百分之百持股的子公司叫中鋼運通，你知不知道這家公司？"],["何部長佩珊：知道。"],["涂委員權吉：它因為勞工爭議的問題在之前躍上媒體，好像工會在上個禮拜也有到勞動部去抗議，他們說從7月開始船員的勞健保就被中斷了，而且長時間也不再派任他們到船上工作，現在這些臺灣的船員大概有300個以上的家庭受影響，針對這個部分，我們也有去了解，交通部航港局說依船員法規範沒有一定要簽定期契約，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：這個跟定期或不定期無關，主要是他那個勞保斷保的問題啦！"],["涂委員權吉：對。"],["何部長佩珊：當時勞保局有明確的告訴他，在下船的時候就是必須去別的地方加保，就是沒有契約關係，我們勞保局是有明確的這樣答復。"],["涂委員權吉：這個部分之前我們交通委員會的魯明哲委員也有去詢問過局長，他也很明確的講，航港局並沒有行政指導說一定要用定期的契約，是由勞資雙方來決議，現在我想請問一下，今天是勞保司司長來，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：對，是司長。"],["涂委員權吉：你看一下，中鋼運通其實在今年7月之前，他的勞健保都是一直持續加保，不管船員是在岸還是離岸，一直都在投保的，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對，沒有錯，因為在之前是資方主動替他們加保的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以表示中鋼運通一直都有在持續加保，也就是說，他一直都有持續加保，所以他一直都保有這個勞僱關係，這是沒有問題的吧？"],["何部長佩珊：他的勞僱關係不在我們界定的範圍，我們沒有針對這個去做……"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是他一直都有保勞健保，所以他今天如果要到別家公司加保，是不是一定也要從這邊退保？所以他一直都在這邊保勞健保是沒有錯的。"],["何部長佩珊：對，他們確實有存在這樣的狀態。"],["涂委員權吉：既然一直有保勞健保，那他這個勞僱關係難道不存在嗎？有一直在那邊保勞健保。"],["何部長佩珊：那是兩件事，我們只管勞保條例這個部分。"],["涂委員權吉：好，重點是他一直有保勞健保，對中鋼運通這些員工來講，他們認為他們這個是不定期契約，我們這樣看起來也是蠻合理的啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不，委員，他們是定期契約或不定期契約並不是勞動部界定的。"],["涂委員權吉：不是勞動部界定？"],["何部長佩珊：那是航港局就船員法他們自己本身……因為特別法優於普通法，這不是我勞基法主管的範圍，船員不是我勞基法主管的範圍。"],["涂委員權吉：好，那我請問一下，勞動契約的認定難道不是勞動部的職責嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，就是這個船員的勞動契約是依船員法這個特別法去認定的，是由其主管機關認定的，不是我。"],["涂委員權吉：所以船員法不是？"],["何部長佩珊：對，船員法是交通部航港局主管的。"],["涂委員權吉：可是他是勞工，他也算是勞工啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對，他是勞工沒有錯，可是他不是我勞基法這邊管的勞工啦！"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以你的意思是說勞基法第九條關於勞動契約的規範不包含船員這些勞工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，第九條是一個普遍的陳述，它是定期契約跟不定期契約的陳述，船員法有它的特別規定，我再講一遍，法律原則是特別法優於普通法，因為船員法優於勞基法，優先適用於船員，所以船員他們勞僱關係的界定必須從船員法去處理，不是我這裡。"],["涂委員權吉：那要依船員法，可是他一直保有勞健保，難道他不算它的勞工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不算誰的勞工？"],["涂委員權吉：不算中鋼運通的勞工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：他是中鋼運通的勞工，可是他跟中鋼運通之間的勞僱關係如何，那是交通部航港局依據船員法要去認定的，不是我。"],["涂委員權吉：那他現在找勞動部，勞動部沒有辦法幫他處理這個事情嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為他們都在訴訟中，我們只能關懷。"],["涂委員權吉：我請問一下，勞動部有明確的告知中鋼運通說他們是不屬於勞動部管轄、認定的嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有啊！我們在勞保方面關於他斷保的事情，我們很明確的告訴他們，你下了船，你就是……關於勞保這件事，因為他只有主動問我們勞保這件事而已，對，我們有告訴他下了船就是要去別的地方加保，我們這是有明確告訴中鋼運通的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以它這個是定期契約或不定期契約，我們勞動部沒有辦法認定？"],["何部長佩珊：這不是我這邊管轄的範圍啦！"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們勞基法第九條第一項勞動契約這個認定不包含他們囉？"],["何部長佩珊：對，是啊！因為這是一個普通法，我們勞基法是一個普通法。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我的意思是說……"],["何部長佩珊：他要依據船員法去看，除非船員法有去定義他是定期契約或不定期契約，他要……"],["涂委員權吉：所以他們上禮拜去抗議的時候，我們勞動部有明確告知，針對這些船員勞動契約的認定是依據船員法，不是由勞動部來判定。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們面對他們都講得很清楚，因為必須依法行政，這真的是我們的困難，他一直要求中鋼運通無條件去幫他們復保，事實上那不是我能處理的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我現在也希望勞動部針對這一部分，在他們權利各方面的認定與否，希望能夠很明確告知他們，不然，他們一直都認為勞動契約應該也是由勞動部主管機關來認定，不管是定期、不定期，勞動部應該是要去認定，不然你如何去執行後面有沒有定期契約跟不定期契約的問題嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個我們跟他們講過啦，其實講過欸！"],["涂委員權吉：所以我希望部長很明確的告知，不然這部分，他們一直認為勞動部基本上在推卸責任，變成勞動部針對勞基法定期契約跟不定期契約都沒有辦法去認定，居然交給法院去認定！"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：這部分我希望還是說清楚、講明白，也不要搞得曖昧不清。"],["何部長佩珊：沒有曖昧不清，其實我們講得很清楚，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：還有針對我們勞保年金，勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大，看一下明年度，我們是不是預計一樣要撥補1,300億元？"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們明年編1,300億沒錯！"],["涂委員權吉：然後這六年來，我們看一下，勞動部撥補預算金額大概達到3,870億嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["涂委員權吉：然後部長在接受訪問的時候，也講要持續撥補，確保制度的持續穩健運作，所以這樣也意味著往後撥補應該是變成常態化了？"],["何部長佩珊：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！如果撥補已經是常態化，而且我們現在朝野很多立委，其實不分藍綠都已經有提案，希望把撥補法制化，部長，你支持撥補法制化嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我支持啊，對啊，我支持！"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長也願意嘛，那我想瞭解一下，我們行政院……"],["何部長佩珊：當然是支持的，不過委員，撥補法制化，我們已經在實踐了。"],["涂委員權吉：我請問一下，行政院現在有提自己的法案版本嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們用行政作為在實踐了，至於立法院要修法案，我們都支持。"],["涂委員權吉：都支持嘛！所以各委員提的版本，其實基本上部長也都支持，希望法制化嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：我只支持那單一條條文喔！"],["涂委員權吉：希望法制化嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條而已，其他我保留。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們也希望召委能夠儘快來排審，儘快來處理這個法制化。"],["何部長佩珊：如果只有那一條，我是樂見。我希望委員能夠幫忙，我們也不要因為審了那一條，砍年金的訴求又出來，然後又要我們砍年金，這我們辦不到。"],["涂委員權吉：不會，我是說針對……"],["何部長佩珊：這個我要拜託大院幫忙。"],["涂委員權吉：針對撥補常態化，既然已經是常態化，已經是每年在做，所以我們說既然是常態化，寧可就修改給它法制化。"],["何部長佩珊：如果只有那一條是OK的。"],["涂委員權吉：對，針對法制化，所以如果法制化通過，部長當然也希望我們都能夠編列預算進去。"],["何部長佩珊：那就取決於政府的財政能力啦！"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！就不要常常都用撥補，法制化的目的就是編列預算啦！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，那是同一件事……"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，就把它編……"],["何部長佩珊：政府負最終撥補責任，就是撥補的這一個預算，我們現在已經在實踐了，那是同一件事情。"],["涂委員權吉：我的意思是不要每年都用撥補的嘛，你為什麼不給它法制化啦！"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，就是撥補啊！"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，就編列預算進去嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對啊，法制化就是編列預算，我早就已經在編預算了。"],["涂委員權吉：所以基本上也支持我們委員提案，給它法制化嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：這個我是支持的，我只是說單一那一條而已，就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們現在擔心，不要到時候法制化……你看，現在我們也覺得搞不清楚啊！你看禁伐補償也已經法制化，通過以後也不編預算，會不會到時候我們法制化後，這預算萬一不編列的話怎麼辦呢？"],["何部長佩珊：不可能啦，委員你想想看，沒有法制化我們都在撥補了，更何況是法制化。"],["涂委員權吉：所以一定會撥補嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：一定會，一定會，不管有沒有入法，我們都一定會常態性撥補。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們真的是希望……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我真的再次強調，不要因為修了這一條，又要我們砍年金啦！這個我絕對辦不到。"],["涂委員權吉：沒有，沒有，我們是希望這個撥補既然已經是常態，我們就給它正常法制化，也希望經費都能夠正常來運作，所以當然也要編列啊，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：當然一定。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們真的也為廣大的勞工來感謝部長啦……"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：也希望能夠實施我們賴總統捍衛勞工的決心。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：希望這個部分，我們能夠儘快法制化。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員發言，謝謝部長。","下一位我們請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065e5a4144aceee15d760efc051a48f213596f892b6d7a78c0a2615cb29b12c03265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:08:56 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但是後來是陳水扁當天是這個參加國慶大典他是我有新聞我有看但是我沒有去看他坐在哪裡所以您不知道他會要參加國慶是有這個有這個訊息說會參加國慶所以這個事情你有同意嗎所以他事前有向這個是矯正署臺中監獄有申請核准可以參加國慶大會嗎"},{"start":75.364,"end":84.76,"text":"這部分是臺中建立在做一個處理那矯正署不知道嗎那我是不是請矯正署來待會回答今天周署長有來是不是"},{"start":91.268,"end":109.285,"text":"每個月都會派人過去探視那針對國慶這個陳水扁他本身在9月24號的時候臺中間有特別叮嚀他有這個相關活動務必要事先來報告"},{"start":110.746,"end":123.951,"text":"那在9號那時候還沒有那台中建議在9號10月9號的時候有主動掌握了那個陳水扁要出席我們10月10號的國慶大典"},{"start":126.272,"end":140.862,"text":"那所以那個我們臺中監獄也有派專人到場說證來那即初步的瞭解因為這是慶籌會國慶籌備委員會的一個邀請卡而且總統府也有專人打電話給陳水扁先生要這個慶祝國家的成功好簡單來說就是因為呢上面的這個總統說要邀陳水扁"},{"start":156.592,"end":166.257,"text":"臺中監獄雖然前一天就掌握了資訊可是沒有辦法還只能夠陪同去蒐證然後也沒有說是直接告訴陳水扁你不能夠參加國慶大會臺中監獄是有勸導說是不是那個可以不要去但是陳水扁我必須要講這件事情"},{"start":180.762,"end":207.465,"text":"在本席的這個眼裡我認為他就是一個司法的這個最大的一個恥辱當天陳水扁坐在這個VVIP的這個貴賓席上面後面是司法院院長然後部長您也是在這個另外可能不是正中間的主席台旁邊的貴賓席您怎麼可能會不知道陳水扁會參加國慶大典"},{"start":210.489,"end":225.735,"text":"一個探污犯跟我們現在的司法機關的最重要的兩位首長同台很狠的將司法尊嚴踩在腳下這不是司法最大的挫敗跟恥辱嗎我必須說"},{"start":231.854,"end":233.575,"text":"報告委員可以容我回答嗎?"},{"start":247.034,"end":270.184,"text":"李委員報告這次陳水扁出席國慶大典他是由慶酬會來邀請的而且是經過慶酬會有慶酬會的角色但是你們可以不同意是不是過去你們這個有同意過嗎好我們看一下下一頁了基本上對於陳水扁"},{"start":274.145,"end":300.43,"text":"他已經保外就醫將近10年現在已經延長了39次了我不知道臺中監獄這10年來對於陳水扁的表現是視若無睹嗎他可以主持廣播節目他可以代理他的女兒去當訴訟的律師然後呢參加各式各樣的活動然後甚至還參加國慶大典"},{"start":302.878,"end":330.655,"text":"在陳水扁的眼裡他會認為說你們會不同意嗎?你們過去都沒有修正嗎?有 報告委員我們臺中建議會依照我們保外意志的審核基準跟管理辦法以及基準來做相關的修正所以呢 修正之後的結果呢陳水扁的這些行為符合你們自己所定的審核基準的辦法嗎?"},{"start":331.943,"end":349.798,"text":"她是日常生活所必須嗎?參加國慶大典是她日常生活所必須嗎?擔任她的女兒的訴訟代理人是主持廣播節目是跟她生活有關嗎?是,臺中建議會參考高雄義大跟高雄長庚醫院的遺囑"},{"start":350.759,"end":370.517,"text":"包括他的出遊黃遊去參他是醫組上面認為對他的治療是有正面因應的好所以呢治療到現在10年了確實是頗有成效他是完全恢復正常這樣的情況之下為什麼他可以不重返回到監獄裡面去服刑"},{"start":372.099,"end":396.158,"text":"全國人民都在看都在看你法務部怎麼做報告委員陳水扁的身心狀況他還是有必要再做職能治療的他不是說已經我一直說他未來出獄之後他還要這個工作嗎事實證明他的職能恢復的很好啊還幫他的女兒去當訴訟律師啊"},{"start":398.351,"end":419.89,"text":"主長您今天說這句話您都不覺得慚愧嗎?你曉得現在保外就醫的受刑人在保外就醫的期間他的死亡率有多高?你知道嗎?我們常常看到新聞保外就醫的受刑人可能短短一兩個月的時間可能就往生了"},{"start":421.804,"end":424.325,"text":"報告委員我們委員應該有收到我們的數據我們累積今年總共有499位在外面保外遺址那今年累積到9月份有129人死亡"},{"start":446.277,"end":468.442,"text":"我希望矯正署法務部這裡你們可以把保外就醫的這個受刑人他們出獄的治療的期間還有什麼時候回去以及他的死亡是出獄他的保外就醫在外面多久的時間之內他就過就是就往生你們要把這些數據全部講得清清楚楚"},{"start":469.704,"end":489.543,"text":"本席昨天研究了這張表我看了很久我後來今天重新計算我告訴你大概就是像是人權促進會講的啦出去一半以上五六成的這個保衛就醫的受刑人都會往生而且事實上本來就是他如果不是很嚴重的疾病你戒護就醫就可以了啊"},{"start":493.479,"end":503.623,"text":"講證書臺中監獄乃至於這個政部長我真的希望你們能夠把司法的公平正義隨時要放在心裡放在你們的腦海裡啊今天為什麼陳水扁的這個事情會讓可能慶仇會也忘記了也淡忘了全社會的人都淡忘了他是一個貪污犯他被判刑20年"},{"start":519.827,"end":541.864,"text":"為什麼到現在法院可以停審這麼久而我們的檢察官也沒有主動的向法院提起說要繼續審判這法務部司理也失職檢察官怎麼失職這個停審的事件那個臺北地檢署有多次的發函敦請法院要開始麻煩請把這個數據給我"},{"start":544.206,"end":551.007,"text":"至少以後我不會誤會說地檢署失職這是很嚴重的問題我們刑法裡面其實都有處罰濫權不起訴或不處罰或不執行處罰的罪那這個相關的數據我就在跟我們在書面今天講到這個事情其實我真的認為全台灣的人民都在看"},{"start":569.195,"end":595.466,"text":"我已經不止一次的從我擔任立法委員以來我就一直很在意這個事情為什麼 如果說是認為陳水扁他之前當過總統那現在都民進黨執政已經前面8年接下來未來4年那念在過去的情分上總統就給他特赦啊 我也沒有意見啊但是在沒有特赦的情況之下為什麼可以容許一個"},{"start":598.119,"end":621.235,"text":"這個保外就醫長達10年的這個受刑人貪污犯．可以參加各式各樣的活動慶典．說不過去了．對不對．大法官他這個做了死刑核限的．有條件核限．設了那麼多的門檻．這已經引起了這個民情的重分．我相信陳水扁的事情同樣也是．"},{"start":622.423,"end":634.905,"text":"你知道網路上面怎麼講嗎10月10號是我們的國慶日沒有錯全部的人都很開心都要慶祝這個國慶日但同時也是司法的這個司法支持日啊很難想像這樣的一個這麼明顯的一個受刑人貪污犯竟然可以後面做的事司法院院長還有法務部部長情何以堪"},{"start":653.285,"end":677.185,"text":"好我本來還有準備另外一題不過沒關係我就等到下一次我希望法務部還有矯正署你們可以呢將這個保外就醫的受刑人就是如同你們是表格上面所寫的再多增加幾個類這個這個項目他保外就醫的每平均大家的時間是多少然後多少的時間之內就會往生"},{"start":679.5,"end":679.6,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時6分）召委好，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長好。首先，我想請教部長，上星期的國慶日您有去參加總統府前的國慶大會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：您當時坐在哪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我坐的地區是往北……"],["翁委員曉玲：是在主要的貴賓席嗎？VVIP的貴賓席嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，貴賓席，跟各部會首長坐在一起。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我想請問一下，您當天與貪污犯陳水扁同臺，您內心的感受是如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我是沒有注意到……"],["翁委員曉玲：您沒有注意到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個後來是……"],["翁委員曉玲：陳水扁當天是參加國慶大典，然後……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在新聞有看到，但是我沒有看他坐在哪裡。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您不知道他要參加國慶大會的活動嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是有這個訊息說會參加國慶。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這個事情你有同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他事前有向矯正署、臺中監獄申請核准，可以參加國慶大會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是臺中監獄在做處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：矯正署不知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是不是請矯正署代為回答，好嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，今天周署長有來是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，來。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們臺中監獄每個月都會派員過去探視。針對國慶，陳水扁本身在9月24號的時候，臺中監獄有特別叮嚀他，有相關活動務必要事先來報告，在9號……"],["翁委員曉玲：他有事先報告嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：那時候還沒有。臺中監獄在10月9號的時候有主動掌握了陳水扁要出席10月10號的國慶大典，所以我們臺中監獄也有派專人到場蒐證。據初步的了解，因為這是慶籌會──國慶籌備委員會的一個邀請卡，而且總統府也有專人打電話給陳水扁先生，要慶祝國家的生日。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，簡單來說，就是因為總統說要邀陳水扁出席，所以臺中監獄雖然前一天就掌握了資訊，可是沒有辦法，還是只能夠陪同去蒐證，然後也沒有直接告訴陳水扁，你不能夠參加國慶大會，是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄是有勸導說是不是可以不要去，但是陳水扁是……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我必須要講，這件事情在本席的眼裡，我認為它就是司法最大的恥辱。當天陳水扁坐在VVIP的貴賓席上面，後面是司法院院長，然後部長您雖不是在正中間的，但也在主席臺旁邊的貴賓席，您怎麼可能會不知道陳水扁參加國慶大典？一個貪污犯跟我們現在司法機關最重要的兩位首長同臺，狠狠地將司法尊嚴踩在腳下，這不是司法最大的挫敗跟恥辱嗎？我必須說本席非常在意的，就是司法的公平正義，我希望我們臺灣、中華民國是法治國家，而不是權貴治國啊！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，可以容我回答嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請說。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，這次陳水扁出席國慶大典，他是由慶籌會來邀請的，而且是經過核定。"],["翁委員曉玲：慶籌會有慶籌會的角色，但是你們可以不同意，是不是？過去你們有同意過嗎？好，我們看下一頁。基本上，對於陳水扁，他已經保外就醫將近10年，現在已經延長39次了，我不知道臺中監獄這10年來，是對於陳水扁的表現視若無睹嗎？他可以主持廣播節目，他可以代理他女兒去當訴訟的律師，然後參加各式各樣的活動，甚至還參加國慶大典，在陳水扁的眼裡，他會認為你們會不同意嗎？你們過去都沒有蒐證嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：有，報告委員，我們臺中監獄會依照我們保外醫治的審核基準跟管理辦法以及醫囑……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我們看下一頁，審核基準是怎麼規定？"],["周署長輝煌：來做相關的蒐證。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以蒐證之後的結果呢？陳水扁的這些行為符合你們自己所訂的審核基準辦法嗎？他是日常生活所必須嗎？參加國慶大典也是他日常生活所必須嗎？擔任他女兒的訴訟代理人、主持廣播節目，是跟他生活有關嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄會參考高雄義大跟高雄長庚醫院的醫囑，包括他的出遊、訪友、聚餐……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以如果這些醫生做了假醫囑，你們都不管嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：醫囑上面認為對他的治療是有正面意義。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以呢？他治療到現在10年了，確實是頗有成效，他是完全恢復正常，在這樣的情況之下，為什麼他可以不重返、回到監獄裡面去服刑？全國人民都在看，都在看你法務部怎麼做。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，陳水扁的身心狀況，他還是有必要再做職能治療的，他不是已經完全恢復到一般正常人的狀態。"],["翁委員曉玲：你的意思是說他未來出獄之後，他還要工作嗎？事實證明他的職能恢復得很好啊！還幫他的女兒去當訴訟律師啊！署長，您今天說這句話，你都不覺得慚愧嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：我們所了解……"],["翁委員曉玲：你曉得現在保外就醫的受刑人，在外保外就醫期間，他的死亡率有多高，你知道嗎？我們常常看到新聞，保外就醫的受刑人可能短短一、兩個月的時間就往生了。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：從你們自己做的報告裡面，我告訴你，大概一半以上的保外就醫受刑人在保外就醫期間就過世了。"],["周署長輝煌：委員應該有收到我們的數據，我們累計到今年總共有499位在外面保外醫治，累計到9月份有129人死亡。"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，你們那個數字，我現在要講的就是，我希望矯正署、法務部這裡，你們可以把保外就醫的受刑人，他們出獄治療的期間，還有什麼時候回去，以及他的死亡是在保外就醫多久的時間之內就往生，你們要把這些數據全部講得清清楚楚。本席昨天研究了你這張表，我看了很久，我後來今天重新計算，我告訴你，大概就像是人權促進會講的啦，出去一半以上，五、六成的保外就醫受刑人都會往生，而且事實上本來他如果不是很嚴重的疾病，你戒護就醫就可以了啊！矯正署、臺中監獄乃至於鄭部長，我真的希望你們能夠隨時把司法的公平正義放在心裡，放在你們的腦海裡啊！今天為什麼陳水扁的這個事情會讓……可能慶籌會也忘記了，也淡忘了，全社會的人都淡忘了他是一個貪污犯，他被判刑20年，為什麼到現在法院可以停審這麼久？而我們的檢察官也沒有主動地向法院提起說要繼續審判？法務部是不是也失職，檢察官有沒有失職？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個停審的事件，臺北地檢署有多次的發函，敦請法院要開始……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，麻煩請把這個數據給我。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，另外……"],["翁委員曉玲：至少以後我不會誤會說地檢署失職，對不對？這是很嚴重的問題，我們刑法裡面其實都有濫權、不起訴、不處罰或不執行處罰的罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個相關的數據，我們再用書面跟……"],["翁委員曉玲：今天講到這個事情，其實我真的認為全臺灣的人民都在看，我已經不只一次了，從我擔任立法委員以來，我就一直很在意這個事情，為什麼？如果認為陳水扁他之前當過總統，現在民進黨執政，前面已經有8年，接下來未來還有4年，念在過去的情分上，總統就給他特赦，我也沒有意見啊！但是在沒有特赦的情況之下，為什麼容許一個保外就醫長達10年的受刑人、貪污犯，可以參加各式各樣的活動慶典？說不過去啦！對不對？大法官他做了死刑有條件合憲，設了那麼多的門檻，這已經引起了民情眾憤，我相信陳水扁的事情同樣也是。你知道網路上面怎麼講嗎？10月10號是我們的國慶日，沒有錯，全部的人都很開心，要慶祝國慶日，但同時也是司法之恥日啊！很難想像這麼明顯的受刑人、貪污犯，竟然後面坐的是司法院院長還有法務部長，情何以堪？我本來還有準備另外一題，不過沒關係，我就等到下一次，我希望法務部還有矯正署你們可以將保外就醫的受刑人，如同你們現在表格上面所寫的，再多增加幾個項目，保外就醫平均的時間是多少，然後多少的時間之內就會往生，對不對？很多的數據資料都要公開，要讓民眾了解你們到底做了些什麼，每一次為什麼可以核准他在外面活動，這些資訊難道不應該公開嗎？麻煩你們一個月之內給我一份報告，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：那麼請部長會後提供，謝謝翁委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。","接下來請洪委員孟楷質詢，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},{"id":"155696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306596d00555c993f4503464761d5dfc4adc96f892b6d7a78c0ae0b9b733f13866c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:58:11 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告從電視廣播網路這個平面媒體雜誌甚至報紙等等他們會製造一些錯誤的訊息假的新聞來騷擾那當然"},{"start":67.821,"end":74.164,"text":"這個都必須靠你們專業的一些堅持還有辦法繼續下去這個政策"},{"start":78.82,"end":99.467,"text":"最近這個審計部抽查那麼他針對我們從民國110年9月開始我們就有針對說購地貸款建商購地貸款那麼他必須在一定期間內我們是給他們18個月一定期間內要來動工"},{"start":101.368,"end":128.14,"text":"那麼他抽查的結果這兩家銀行我倒是很訝異他一家抽查說臺灣銀行跟土地銀行這兩家銀行臺灣銀行是還好喔他超過18個月沒有動工的這一個部分只佔他這個不動產借貸這一個部分的0.45%但是土地銀行竟然佔了5.11%"},{"start":131.201,"end":147.36,"text":"哇這一點齁這個而且土地銀行購地貸款18個月沒有動工的餘額增加了16%增加了16%所以我覺得在這一個部分"},{"start":148.908,"end":172.214,"text":"既然我們有這個規定而且這一個規定是正確的就是說如果銀行把過多的融資金額給予建商讓他們去買地、養地、圈地那當然在地小人稠的我們台灣當然房地產"},{"start":173.354,"end":176.875,"text":"竹地囊在這個部分我覺得也應該嚴格遵守所以那個"},{"start":195.301,"end":220.395,"text":"總裁我們銀行法第130條違反中央銀行信用管制可以處新台幣一百萬到兩千萬元的罰款所以這個部分我想是不是應該去針對台銀欸針對土地銀行台銀還好啦台銀至少是個模範生土地銀行這個部分是不是應該去盯一盯他"},{"start":222.197,"end":234.266,"text":"好,我們這個委員的提醒齁,我們馬上來,我回去的時候齁,我們馬上來了解狀況還有以及啊,我們要做一些普查啦,比方說"},{"start":236.072,"end":260.866,"text":"比方說現在這一兩年內我們銀行體系都有針對這些建商高負債率的我比方說有去年前年都有提出十大高負債比例的建商那個第一名第二名負債率都高達八成以上前十名最少68%我記得第十名68%"},{"start":263.587,"end":279.603,"text":"那也就是說我們剛剛講的這一些利用財務槓桿高金額來借貸銀行現在這麼低的利率那麼他用來買地養地圈地所以這"},{"start":281.084,"end":302.411,"text":"我認為是不是央行應該出手要求這些銀行尤其借貸給這十大高負債建商而這十大高負債建商的公司如果你去詳閱他的財報內容他們都構置了很多閒置的土地他根本就是"},{"start":303.511,"end":325.545,"text":"買地養地圈地是非常清楚的所以我們沒辦法直接對建商怎麼樣可是中央銀行可以對這些銀行下手跟這些銀行講說站在社會公平正義居住正義的立場他們不應該去助紂為虐好不好這個部分你要跟他查查"},{"start":326.546,"end":349.525,"text":"我非常佩服這個委員號你特別是你引用了這個央行法第38條這個央行法第38條在我們的這個道德說服那段時間我們的經檢處每一場他都參與而且我們也都跟我們的經檢處就像委員所說的我們要"},{"start":350.885,"end":378.658,"text":"要不定期的去了解他們是不是有遵守銀行法的規定還有遵守我們對他的道德說服這一點我跟委員報告真的我們中央銀行有在做檢討我們不但例行性的要做尤其現在我們既然祭出了這第七波這個現代令那土法不足以自行我們一定"},{"start":380.639,"end":396.872,"text":"一定要跟著這個去查查,然後跟著這個棒子就要來啦。要不然他當作螞蟻東風根本來個不甩。他尤其查查的我們就要連著因為這"},{"start":399.102,"end":413.278,"text":"幾年來我們政府一直在推動各企業往ESG之後那這個方向這是正確的環境國家的永續但是ESG在銀行的部分本來"},{"start":415.809,"end":433.394,"text":"財政部金管會是交由第一銀行說這個ESG去推動去怎麼樣落實結果第一銀行有製作了ESG的查核表格但是這個表格製作了交給各銀行去針對"},{"start":435.668,"end":460.422,"text":"來貸款的企業是不是ESG有達到尤其對建商啦建商ESG的責任特別重大不只他蓋的產品應該注重ESG過程裡面公安的問題等等以外因為建商貸款金額那麼大嘛他的責任當然更重結果有了這個表格"},{"start":461.94,"end":470.688,"text":"但是沒有實際去落實。表格填一填但是也沒有對違反這表格內容尤其對於"},{"start":473.523,"end":496.206,"text":"綠色的這個要求尤其對於公安的要求那有的公安連連失誤每年都在摔傷甚至不幸導致工人死亡的案例那麼多的公司越多違反ESG規定的公司貸款越高"},{"start":497.367,"end":513.787,"text":"那連一個基本的處罰說把他要不然每個申請案降低他額度要不然把他提高他的貸款利率都沒有都沒有所以這個部分總裁我們只能委請中央銀行就是說這個部分因為你們是"},{"start":514.708,"end":534.21,"text":"銀行中的銀行是有你們下去管制這些銀行說你們有沒有去落實ESG是還有這個表格建制之後的要求是好不好好好謝謝謝謝我另外要提幾點就是說我簡單提一下就是說"},{"start":536.647,"end":561.641,"text":"到底我們這一波信用管制是不是如坊間講的啦坊間講的很多我認為是假消息我認為比方說齁這個最近這一兩個月說央行打得太用力了啦患汙足哀嚎說小建商恐怕會倒閉這些很多是錯誤信息甚至背後"},{"start":562.882,"end":590.363,"text":"是建商刻意在推動的假消息他藉由自入性的新聞藉由這樣子的方式在製作這樣子的假訊息那包括說這個購屋導致說現在消費者借不到房屋青年朋友要來自產借不到房屋貸款這些都鬼扯啦"},{"start":590.703,"end":604.373,"text":"因為這個是他們講的借不到的大部分都是囤屋族啦、小房客真的借不到的這個我們查了以後有的是因為中間的溝通不好比方說換屋"},{"start":605.814,"end":607.215,"text":"我瞭解到的比較客觀的民調不動產仲介工會他的網路民調"},{"start":632.429,"end":646.919,"text":"他說這一次打房有38.5%的民眾認為這個房價可能會下跌那時候一定會下跌的13.5%也就是說合計有超過50%超過一半52%的民眾認為這個會達到房價下跌所以"},{"start":659.395,"end":683.682,"text":"總裁這個方向是對的難得能夠來抑制這個狂飆的房價那當然啦這一波這個裡面還有一個結論是說有兩成的民眾說認為央行應該繼續在第八波信用管制那這個部分當然就是在研究啦在研究"},{"start":684.102,"end":702.236,"text":"那我覺得說有一些我們沒有讓消費者理解到的訊息那這個要加強宣達最後一點就是說竟然啦竟然有的銀行利用這一次青年朋友頭一次來購屋那他們就寄出說這個你要購買"},{"start":703.737,"end":703.777,"text":"是。是。"},{"start":724.301,"end":743.475,"text":"完全不能也不應該有說要搭配購買金融消費商品購買保險才能夠貸款這一點要銀行一定要去落實好不好現在的銀行大部分都是金共公司嘛金共就什麼都有啊保險啦證券啦"},{"start":745.697,"end":746.598,"text":"我們暫時休息五分鐘。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（10時58分）謝謝主席。請總裁。"],["主席：有請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員世堅：總裁最近辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝，我真的非常謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：你要做的事、你要對抗的，剛好是我們國內最重要的兩大廣告供應者之一，就是這些建商，房地產業者。在祭出第七波信用管制之後，他們相對的就利用他們在媒體的優勢做了很多反彈！因為他們長期提供那麼大量的廣告，從電視、廣播、網路、平面媒體、雜誌，甚至報紙等等，製造一些錯誤的訊息、假新聞來騷擾。當然，這些都必須靠你們的專業與堅持才有辦法繼續下去這項政策……"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：最近審計部針對建商購地貸款進行抽查。從民國110年9月開始就有規定建商購地貸款必須在一定期間內，我們給他們18個月時間，一定期間內要動工。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員世堅：抽查的結果，這兩家銀行我倒是很訝異，臺灣銀行跟土地銀行這兩家銀行，臺灣銀行是還好，它超過18個月沒有動工的部分只占它不動產借貸部分的0.45%，但是土地銀行竟然占了5.11%，而且土地銀行購地貸款18個月沒有動工的餘額增加了16%。所以我覺得在這個部分，既然我們有這個規定，而且這個規定是正確的，就是如果銀行把過多的融資金額給予建商，讓他們去買地、養地、圈地，在地小人稠的臺灣，當然房地產會漲價，而建商當然有他們一定的獲利需求，但是也不能到這種不擇手段的地步，所以土地銀行在這個部分我覺得也應該嚴格遵守。總裁，銀行法第一百三十條，違反中央銀行信用管制可以處新臺幣一百萬到兩千萬元的罰款，所以這個部分，我想是不是應該去針對臺銀、針對土地銀行，臺銀還好啦，臺銀至少是個模範生，有關土地銀行這個部分，是不是應該去盯一盯它？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，委員的提醒，我回去的時候，我們馬上來了解狀況。"],["王委員世堅：還有我們要做一些普查，比方說這一、兩年內我們銀行體系都有針對高負債率的這些建商，比方去年、前年都有提出十大高負債比率的建商，第一名、第二名負債率都高達八成以上，前十名最少68%，我記得第十名是68%。也就是說，我們剛剛講的，這一些利用財務槓桿，以高金額來借貸銀行現在這麼低的利率，用來買地、養地、圈地，所以我認為央行是不是應該出手要求這些銀行，尤其借貸給這十大高負債建商的，而這十大高負債建商的公司，如果你去詳閱它的財報內容，他們都購置了很多閒置的土地，根本就是買地、養地、圈地嘛，這非常清楚的。我們沒辦法直接對建商怎麼樣，可是中央銀行可以對這些銀行下手，跟這些銀行講說，站在社會公平正義、居住正義的立場，他們不應該去助紂為虐，好不好？這個部分你要去查察他們。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我非常佩服委員，特別是你引用了央行法第三十八條，央行法第三十八條，在我們道德說服的那一段時間，我們金檢處每一場都參與，就像委員所說的，我們要不定期地去了解他們是不是有遵守銀行法的規定，還有遵守我們對它的道德說服，這一點我跟委員報告，真的我們中央銀行有在做檢討。"],["王委員世堅：不但例行性的要做，尤其現在既然祭出了第七波的限貸令，徒法不足以自行……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員世堅：我們一定要跟著去查察，然後接著這個棒子就要來啦！要不然它當作馬耳東風，根本不甩。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員世堅：尤其查察了，我們就要連著……因為這幾年來我們政府一直在推動各企業往ESG這個方向，這是正確的，環境、國家的永續，但是ESG在銀行的部分，本來財政部、金管會是交由第一銀行，去推動ESG、怎麼樣去落實，第一銀行有製作了ESG的查核表格，這個表格製作了，交給各銀行去針對來貸款的企業，查核是不是有達到ESG，尤其對建商，建商ESG的責任特別重大，不只它蓋的產品應該注重ESG，還有過程中工安的問題等等，因為建商貸款金額那麼大，它的責任當然更重；結果有了這個表格，但是沒有實際去落實，表格填一填，但是也沒有對於違反表格內容的，尤其對於綠色的要求、尤其對於工安的要求，有的工安年年失誤，每年都在摔傷，甚至不幸導致工人死亡的案例，那麼多的公司，越違反ESG規定的公司貸款越高，連一個基本的處罰，比如降低它每個申請案的額度，或是提高它的貸款利率，都沒有、都沒有！所以這個部分，總裁，我們只能委請中央銀行，因為你們是銀行中的銀行，由你們下去管制這些銀行，看他們有沒有去落實ESG，還有這個表格建置之後的要求，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["王委員世堅：我另外要提幾點，我簡單提一下，就是到底我們這一波信用管制是不是如坊間講的，坊間講了很多，我認為是假消息，比方最近這、一兩個月說央行打得太用力了啦，換屋族哀號，又說小建商恐怕會倒閉。這些很多是錯誤訊息，甚至背後是建商刻意在推動的假消息，它藉由置入性的新聞，藉由這樣的方式在製作假訊息，包括說購屋導致現在消費者借不到房屋貸款，青年朋友要來置產卻借不到房屋貸款，這些都鬼扯啦，因為他們講的借不到的大部分都是囤屋族、炒房客；真的借不到的，我們查了以後，有的是因為中間的溝通不好，比方說換屋，如果有切結的話沒有問題啊，新青安孝親房的部分也都有做了一些澄清，連繼承的部分，央行也都澄清、也放寬了，所以我覺得就是要堅定，不要受這些假訊息的影響。","所以最後我要跟你報一個我瞭解到的比較客觀的民調，不動產仲介公會的網路民調顯示，這次打房有38.5%的民眾認為房價可能會下跌，而認為一定會下跌的有13.5%，也就是合計有超過50%、超過一半，也就是52%的民眾認為此次打炒房會達到房價下跌。所以總裁，這個方向是對的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：難得能夠來抑制狂飆的房價。當然這裡面還有一個結論是有兩成的民眾認為央行應該繼續再做第八波信用管制，這個部分當然就是再研究啦，我覺得有一些沒有讓消費者理解到的訊息要加強宣導。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，好。"],["王委員世堅：最後一點就是，竟然有的銀行利用這次青年朋友頭一次來購屋，他們就祭出說你要購買金融相關的商品，比方說搭配保險、理財商品，要購買這些才能貸款！我覺得這個部分我們要特別要求銀行不要趁這一次上下其手，對青年朋友、對新購屋族造成困擾，完全不能也不應該說要搭配購買金融消費商品、購買保險才能夠貸款，這一點銀行一定要去落實，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：現在的銀行大部分都是金控公司，金控就什麼都有，保險、證券、房貸什麼都有，混在一起了，那是不對的。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝，我們暫時休息5分鐘。","休息（11時10分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。","接著請黃珊珊委員質詢，請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30654cbda44f573d024fde4e273edfded79496f892b6d7a78c0a14c0d4092921a8965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:59:34 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有請國防部長顧部長來部長請部長早 部長你知道我們國軍官兵給你取了一個綽號你知道是什麼嗎你不曉得喔我不知道"},{"start":28.82,"end":53.011,"text":"他們都叫你福利雄是那個綽號從某方面來講其實是肯定你對軍中的福利制度的改革所以今天本席想要跟部長討論一下我們不需要花太多錢但絕對可以讓官兵很有感的福利的改革部長你知道現在歐美等很多先進的國家的軍隊他們的士兵的戰鬥各裝都是可以自行選購的嗎"},{"start":56.286,"end":65.91,"text":"這個戰鬥各裝開放的自行選購其實一直是國軍官兵的心聲上個會期本席也是多次的質詢就是希望能夠替我們國軍官兵爭取開放各裝的自購甚至我們國內有某些單位也有"},{"start":82.958,"end":83.598,"text":"請問部長你清楚美軍的各裝制購的規定嗎?"},{"start":112.019,"end":120.165,"text":"我到美國國會外交的時候曾經詢問過美軍的現役的官兵他們的做法就是像抗彈板跟抗彈頭盔這樣攸關士兵生命安全的裝備都是要公發的"},{"start":139.238,"end":141.378,"text":"現在就是說我們就防護頭盔、抗彈板跟戰鬥背心這三項"},{"start":168.524,"end":172.788,"text":"這三項是屬於安全防禦而且是重複使用的安全防禦品項就這個部分是不開放自購的"},{"start":188.903,"end":206.928,"text":"那其他的這個部分呢包括有一些因為上次開會的時候也有討論到我想詳細的這個就是個別的品項的部分是不是後持?好先我先講一下就是國軍功發其實也不是不好啦我剛剛講的情況也不是不好就像部長說的嘛有的是可以有的是不行嘛但是像我們軍備局做的T-91步槍這個大家都是覺得非常優秀的軍品啊但自製的裝備的缺點"},{"start":217.571,"end":217.631,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":234.972,"end":235.573,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告業務概況．並備質詢。．並備質詢。"},{"start":250.574,"end":279.974,"text":"跟委員回覆一下謝謝委員的指導基本上剛剛部長提到那三項裝備跟美軍我們都follow他一樣的一定要經過安全的測試跟合格的標準之後由公發這部分來發這跟美軍是一模一樣那其他的我們有其他裝備不同的部隊有不同的選項那現在我們已經有列入15項的裝備可以在福利站跟官兵來購買這也是委員的期待"},{"start":285.217,"end":309.169,"text":"還有一點想要提醒一下的就是說像海軍左營站的有很多不錯的品項讓官軍可以放購但是有時候會不小心採購到中國的品牌因為我發現像現在有一個原本是法國品牌經典的軍靴的品牌但是在2019年的時候已經被中國的特部國際收購"},{"start":310.149,"end":333.334,"text":"所以之後是不是要注意一下不要去選到中國的品牌還有其實當然我剛才講這個不是責怪海軍的意思因為我覺得他們很努力的幫官兵在開發新的品項其實這是非常值得鼓勵的相對以來陸軍這方面真的要加油再幫官兵要換一些新換購一些比較新的可能要跟海軍一下學習然後請部長回去關心一下陸軍官兵的福利好嗎"},{"start":339.987,"end":351.016,"text":"福利站裏面他們所承受的這些官兵可以自購的這些品項的東西我們一定在嚴格的在審視一下他們的標準不要有紅色產牌"},{"start":356.97,"end":368.074,"text":"有關我們跟美國採購66架F16的問題,究竟今年底之前是不是就會開始交機,然後會交給台灣多少架呢?"},{"start":370.128,"end":371.65,"text":"所以還不曉得說有多少架今年會交機嗎?"},{"start":387.327,"end":399.061,"text":"今年的話按照我們的期盼就是說他有一架會出來然後之後這一個測試沒有問題之後他現在事實上這個組裝線上面也加開這個產線然後來進行加快這個組裝的這個這個這個"},{"start":407.537,"end":407.757,"text":"發言委員：林憶君"},{"start":432.216,"end":439.985,"text":"那要是否表示我們在2026年底前除了漢翔公司做完性能提升的141架F16之外再加上新造的66架那等於未來台灣就擁有205架的F16戰機呢?"},{"start":450.912,"end":466.159,"text":"根據這個數量來表示未來台灣將會除了美國之外F16是數量最多的國家那未來我們F16機隊就是有完整的防空自海還有打擊的能力會是我們台海防衛作戰最重要的主力戰機對吧是"},{"start":468.629,"end":468.669,"text":"主席"},{"start":488.007,"end":501.231,"text":"依照部班的座艙比的話,飛機座艙與飛行人員的比例,1.5的標準來算,可能未來還要多出114位飛行人員的需求,這樣算應該是沒有問題吧?"},{"start":503.095,"end":513.188,"text":"是,所以我們現在已經依照我們現在要接裝的這個需求已經進行了相關的這個編組的調整然後飛行員的這個訓練都有預先規劃,所以應該是沒有問題的"},{"start":519.252,"end":540.081,"text":"所以部長的意思是說除了飛行員之外部長也知道所謂空戰出英雄地面一半工所以機工啊航管啊彈藥啊等等地面需要的人力請問空軍有沒有算過未來我們第7年對換裝F16會產生多少人力的需求然後未來這些人力有沒有辦法滿足呢"},{"start":540.832,"end":557.738,"text":"謝謝委員的關心：空軍參謀長向您報告扣除花蓮跟現有的嘉義基地現有的以外第三個臺東我們區分了三個階段在去年底還有明年跟後年分三個階段都有妥勝的規劃在這邊向委員報告"},{"start":562.21,"end":584.584,"text":"也就是說它分成三階段就這個整個的聯隊所需要的相關的這些飛行員還有這些後勤的地面後勤維修這些能力都已經做好相關的規劃這樣子這應該是就這個飛行員的部分應該還有後勤維保的部分應該的能力部分應該是沒有問題都預先已經規劃了"},{"start":585.864,"end":603.363,"text":"現在如果說沒有問題的話其實我們台灣的戰鬥機數量非常多而且甚至比日本還多所以還是建議部長在規劃下一代的戰機的時候能夠用更少的人力來達到更高的目標因為我們可以把節省下來的人力成本"},{"start":603.883,"end":604.443,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員指導謝謝林憶君召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時59分）謝謝主席，有請國防部長顧部長。"],["主席：來，部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：是，林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長早，部長，你知道我們國軍官兵給你取了一個綽號，你知道是什麼嗎？你不曉得喔？你不知道？他們都叫你「福利雄」，其實這個綽號從某方面來講是肯定你對軍中福利制度的改革，所以今天本席想要跟部長討論一下，我們不需要花太多錢，但絕對可以讓官兵很有感的福利改革。部長，你知道現在歐美等很多先進國家的軍隊，他們士兵的戰鬥個裝都是可以自行選購的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我的瞭解是一部分可以，有部分還是要符合規格並統一採購。"],["林委員憶君：戰鬥個裝開放自行選購其實一直是國軍官兵的心聲，上個會期本席也是多次質詢，就是希望能夠替我們國軍官兵爭取開放個裝的自購，甚至我們國內有某些單位也有自購的裝備，像內政部警政署刑事局的除暴特勤隊，你看他們身上的裝備是不是基本上都不太一樣，但是仔細去看都是非常精良的裝備，完全不輸世界上任何最先進的軍隊。關於個裝自購，其實美軍是一個值得效法的對象，請問部長，你清楚美軍個裝自購的規定嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有關美軍個裝自購的部分是不是有請……"],["林委員憶君：沒關係，我跟部長稍微簡短講一下好了，因為時間也有限。我到美國國會外交的時候，曾經詢問過美軍的現役官兵，他們的作法就是像抗彈板和抗彈頭盔這樣攸關士兵生命安全的裝備都是公發的，但是其他的像戰鬥靴、衣服、褲子、水袋等，他們可以在營站購買，也有不同品牌可以選擇。另外像步槍用的瞄具、戰術握把或戰術背心之類的裝備，有些士兵認為公發的不好用，所以都會根據自己的需求想要自己買請問部長，你覺得我們是不是可以考慮跟進呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們就防護頭盔、抗彈板及戰鬥背心這三項，跟你剛剛螢幕上提到美軍的這個作法是差不多的，這三項是屬於安全防禦，而且是重複使用的安全防禦品項，就這個部分是不開放自購的。其他的部分因為上次開會的時候也有討論到，詳細的個別品項的部分是不是請後次室……"],["林委員憶君：我先講一下，國軍公發其實也不是不好，我剛才講的情況也不是不好，就像部長說的，有的是可以、有的是不行，但是像我們軍備局做的T91步槍，大家都覺得是非常優秀的軍品，但制式裝備的缺點是不見得會符合每一個人的習慣，就像小時候我們上學的時候穿制服，有些人就會覺得這邊是不是要修改一下，還是那邊要修改一下，還是要找一個材質穿起來比較舒服的商店去購買。我們反觀軍人都是在最嚴苛的環境下作戰，部長是不是可以同意在不影響戰力的前提下，儘量讓他們可以選擇自己最適應的裝備，開放個裝自購呢？"],["陳次長道輝：跟委員回復一下，謝謝委員的指導，基本上，剛剛部長提到的那三項裝備，我們都follow美軍是一樣的，一定要經過安全的測試和合格標準之後，由公發這部分來發，這跟美軍是一模一樣的；至於其他的裝備，不同的部隊有不同的選項，現在我們已經有列入15項裝備，可以在福利站供官兵來購買，這也是委員的期待。"],["林委員憶君：這15項可以提供書面給我看一下嗎？"],["陳次長道輝：沒有問題。"],["林委員憶君：我還有一點想要提醒一下，像海軍左營站有很多不錯的品項，讓官軍可以換購，但是有時候會不小心採購到中國品牌，因為我發現像現在有一個Palladium，原本是法國經典軍靴的品牌，但是在2019年的時候已經被中國的特步國際收購，所以之後是不是要注意一下，不要去選到中國的品牌。我剛才講的不是責怪海軍的意思，因為我覺得他們很努力的幫官兵開發新的品項，其實這是非常值得鼓勵的；相對地，陸軍這方面真的要加油，在幫官兵換購一些比較新的品項，可能要跟海軍學習一下。請部長回去關心一下陸軍官兵的福利，好嗎？"],["陳次長道輝：報告委員，沒有問題，福利站裡面所承售的官兵可以自購的這些品項，我們一定再嚴格的審視一下他們的標準，不要有紅色廠牌。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。再來，我再請教部長，有關我們和美國採購66架F-16的問題，究竟今年底之前是不是就會開始交機，會交給臺灣多少架呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望在今年年底以前要交付首架的飛機，他們現在也加開產線，我們還是希望在2026年年底之前能夠全數交付。"],["林委員憶君：所以還不曉得有多少架今年會交機嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：今年按照我們的期盼，它有一架會出來，測試沒有問題之後，它現在事實上組裝線上面也加開產線，來進行加快組裝，產線上面應該是同時有19架在做，所以我們期待這樣的加速結果，還是在2026年年底以前可以全數交付完畢。"],["林委員憶君：所以是2026年12月之前就會交付完畢？"],["顧部長立雄：依照我們原來發價書上面所規定的期程。"],["林委員憶君：這是否表示我們在2026年底以前，除了漢翔公司做完性能提升的141架F-16之外，再加上新造的66架，等於未來臺灣就擁有205架F-16戰機呢？"],["顧部長立雄：是，按照計算上來講是這樣。"],["林委員憶君：根據這個數量表示，未來臺灣將會是除了美國之外，F-16數量最多的國家，未來我們F-16機隊就會有完整的防空、制海還有打擊能力，會是我們臺海防衛作戰最重要的主力戰機，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員憶君：看來裝備方面都是在計畫之內，但是現在我比較擔心的是人力問題，我這邊先幫部長算個簡單的數學，我們採購66架F-16，其中包含56架單座型以及10架雙座型，總共76個座位，依照部頒的座艙比，飛機座艙與飛行人員比例1.5的標準來算，可能未來還要多出114位飛行人員的需求，這樣算應該是沒有問題吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是，所以我們現在已經依照要接裝的需求進行了相關的編組調整，以及飛行員的訓練都有預先規劃，所以應該是沒有問題的。"],["林委員憶君：所以部長的意思是，除了飛行員之外，部長也知道所謂空戰出英雄，地面一半功，所以機工、航管、彈藥等等地面需要的人力，請問空軍有沒有算過，未來我們第七聯隊換裝F-16會產生多少人力的需求？未來這些人力有沒有辦法滿足呢？"],["王參謀長德揚：謝謝委員的關心，空軍參謀長向您報告，扣除花蓮及現有的嘉義基地以外，第三個臺東，我們區分了三個階段，在去年底還有明年和後年分三個階段都有妥善的規劃，在這邊向委員報告。"],["顧部長立雄：分成三階段，就整個聯隊所需要的這些相關的飛行員，還有這些地面的後勤維修人力都已經做好相關的規劃，飛行員以及後勤維保的人力部分應該是沒有問題，都已經預先規劃了。"],["林委員憶君：如果沒有問題的話，其實我們臺灣的戰鬥機數量非常多，而且甚至比日本還多，所以還是建議部長在規劃下一代戰機的時候，能夠用更少的人力來達到更高的目標，因為我們可以把節省下來的人力成本轉移到投資和維持部隊的戰力上面，像F-35這種第五代戰機就應該是我們努力爭取的目標。最後，我還是希望國防部面對臺灣未來的少子化問題，應該要超前部署因應，讓空軍下一代的主力戰機能前瞻十年到二十年，才是真正能夠維護臺海的安全。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員指導，應該的。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君召委。我先跟林岱樺委員報告一下，我們剛才有宣告過，待會陳冠廷委員質詢完，我們要處理臨時提案，然後會休息5分鐘，時間讓你知道一下。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30654b0d38c5f2a00e7460efc051a48f213596f892b6d7a78c0a09fd7cf4a47809cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:56:13 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你不要浪費我的時間 你說"},{"start":479.764,"end":501.986,"text":"到底什麼時候我們稻米的出口產值可以增加我們的價值可以增加什麼時候這是你農委會農業部部長應該要負擔的責任嘛你們提出你們的目標嘛你說啊什麼時候我們出口"},{"start":503.271,"end":506.092,"text":"我剛才也說了就是說其實上個月我到日本去的時候就有接待到一些"},{"start":526.337,"end":526.938,"text":"你跟我講什麼時候啦?"},{"start":538.374,"end":563.285,"text":"進口是持續在做 那我們希望說它的成長會更快速 會快速去做這個你給我保證什麼時候啦 我們出口會增加啦 你給我保證啦我想明年開始實施的話出口一定會增加你不要提高公糧收購的價格 你給我保證什麼時候我們出口會增加啦 會真正的增加農民的收入啦 你給我保證啦"},{"start":564.365,"end":591.181,"text":"我想明年的部分我想出口一定會增加這個是一定確認只是那個量的部分我們還要去跟我們的不同國家的同路去討論另外一個是很多國家的米的進口是有配額的部分所以相對的他必須要取得配額以後才能來進出口的部分這個也會努力好我最後有個問題啊不要浪費我的時間我就向你保證而已嘛你要保證啊我想要知道現在我們去年的時候"},{"start":592.662,"end":593.002,"text":"下一張 農民說如果"},{"start":614.566,"end":633.16,"text":"一次的專案進口3萬隻的總母雞進來雖然他沒有辦法解決燃煤之急有可能呢有可能他預估就是在今年2024跟2025年我們的雞蛋產量會大幅度的上升導致現在我們面臨到雞蛋價格產地價格大幅度的下跌對不對"},{"start":640.629,"end":665.045,"text":"我跟委員報告齁其實要穩定雞蛋的產銷業者跟我們農業部都有責任也是共同的目標那業者的部分我們每一個禮拜都有提供相關的資訊那業者就應該根據這個資訊做相關的自主的管理包括總機他就必須要去淘汰而不是放任總機持續的變成蛋凍機然後蛋機廠他持續的不去做一個優化去調節而讓雞蛋繼續生產出來"},{"start":668.027,"end":670.83,"text":"因為要根據供需 那農業部的部分我們會怎麼樣子 怎麼樣子調節現在的種機我問你現在 養雞協會說希望農業部可以補助淘汰種機但是現在淘汰種機會不會明年我們又變成雞蛋沒有了 會不會"},{"start":690.998,"end":691.698,"text":"農業部長 陳部長你要怎麼解決這個問題啊"},{"start":715.993,"end":739.728,"text":"我想我們會協調兩地協會你現在說不要希望他們自主那到時候他們自主淘汰太多明年會不會產生我們又缺蛋的問題阿你們又要去進口雞蛋阿會不會我們每個月基本上我們都提供了很完整的資訊包括總雞、蛋中雞跟淘汰母雞的整個數量那業者"},{"start":741.869,"end":741.889,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":564,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時56分）謝謝召委，我想要請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有畜牧司司長李宜謙。"],["主席：請司長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長早。我想請問一下，現在我們「班班有鮮乳」這個問題要怎麼解決？我們知道從過去以來，我們的消費市場，就是指乳品的消費市場，鮮乳占85%，保久乳占15%，國內的乳品是有足夠的供應量供給「班班有鮮乳」這個政策，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，以生乳量來講基本上是的，但是誠如剛才委員所說的保久乳大概占市場的15%，現在遇到的一個問題就是保久乳產能不足，所以我們現在也積極協調乳廠能夠提高保久乳的產能，目標就是讓我們的學童能夠喝得到牛奶。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請問什麼時候可以？"],["陳部長駿季：我們分兩個部分，一個部分就是已經下訂完成的部分，我們會儘量協調乳廠在乳品的分配，讓每個學校的學童都能夠喝到，因為原來乳廠配送的時候，有時候會多配，就是一次把它配到兩個月或一個月以上，這樣的話，就會造成一些調度上的困難，所以農業部也啟動一個專案的小組去協調、協助我們乳廠在乳品的部分能夠儘量讓我們的所有學校的學生都能夠喝到。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那什麼時候可以協調？"],["陳部長駿季：現在已經在做了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在學校下訂的情況應該都已經決定了嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：現在大概有19個縣市完成下訂，還有3個縣市還沒有完成下訂的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那19個縣市的部分應該可以馬上來溝通協調了吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在已經啟動了，我們有一個專案小組在協助乳廠，因為過去的乳廠是透過經銷商到學校去，這個部分他們過往的經驗可能比較不足，所以我們會來協助它在學校配送的部分，能夠做一個比較有系統的分配，這樣的話，讓學童至少都能夠喝到，不是有的學校喝到，有的學校喝不到，我們希望每個學校都能夠喝到。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問，8月30號開學，現在已經第二個月了，對不對？9月是第一個月，10月已經是第二個月了。"],["陳部長駿季：我們9月……"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候班班有鮮乳，大家可以喝到？"],["陳部長駿季：我們本身的目標就是讓我們的學校儘量能夠很快速的喝得到，所以很重要一點就是我們希望乳廠的產能能夠提高，然後相對地，它在配送的時候能夠比較均勻的配送，而不是完全百分之百滿足先訂的學校以後才去做其他的，這樣的話，造成有的學校喝得到、有的學校喝不到我們會來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我特別點名畜牧司長李宜謙，他是新任的畜牧司長，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我要點名，為什麼保久乳喝不到，你叫大家改喝鮮乳？你知道在乳品的供應契約裡面，我們鮮乳的價格是多少？14加2嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對不對？那保久乳呢？"],["陳部長駿季：14塊。"],["謝委員衣鳯：14塊，大家為什麼要訂保久乳？就是因為價格的問題嘛！我們補助的就只有14塊嘛！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那這樣子的情況下，是不是學校當然會優先採用保久乳？"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個部分，我們以後……"],["謝委員衣鳯：給他回答，你來解釋一下，李宜謙司長。"],["李司長宜謙：報告委員，鮮乳14塊加2，保久乳14塊，這個都是由我們農業部的預算來支應，沒有讓學校出錢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道，那為什麼大家要訂保久乳？就是因為這個預算剛剛好，他們可以足夠也可以供給這些學生班班可以喝到鮮乳嘛！班班可以喝到牛奶嘛！那你為什麼叫大家如果喝不到保久乳就改喝鮮乳？錢不夠啊！再怎麼樣就知道錢不夠啊！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們基本上會尊重學校對於保久乳或鮮乳的選擇，本身我們的預算是足夠的，不是說因為預算不夠而讓保久乳改成鮮乳，最主要是保久乳的產能現在還沒有完全上來之前，如果學校願意能夠做一些調整，那我們也會儘量來協調乳廠配合，我們的意思大概是這樣子。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，你看一下，這是我們目前稻米的出口統計，為什麼農民希望公糧的價格可以提高，為什麼？現在生產成本提高嘛！我們過去農委會的政策是希望可以增加出口嘛！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那你看到稻米出口的統計，這是不是稻米出口的統計？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：從過去以來，109年出口是超過進口，可是近年來並沒有大幅度的上升，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，大概有幾個原因，第一個原因就是前幾年剛好在疫情期間，它的出口比較不易；第二個部分也是我個人希望一直去推動的，就是我希望我們生產的是優質的好米，這樣的話我更能夠利用品牌的方式去推到一些高端的市場，這樣的話才能夠讓農民的收益提高。繳公糧的部分大概都只是重量不重質的部分，繳公糧的部分，我們有兩個部分，一個部分是針對一些落後地區的，我們配合外交部去提供這些援助米，一年大概2.2萬噸，其他的部分，我想因為它的品質不是那麼好，所以相對地國內的這些加工使用的量就比較低，所以最重要的根本就是希望農民能夠種植比較優良的米以後，不管是國內的供應或外銷的部分，基本上它的面向就會比較大。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是以目前來看，為什麼農民現在急著希望公糧的價格升高？就是因為過去幾年來，不管你說要用品牌的出口讓它能夠價格高漲，但是在整個實績上面就是沒有成績，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，如果說我們去訪視這些稻農，當你訪視到純粹繳公糧的，他當然希望公糧提高，因為現在種稻，不管年紀大或年紀輕的，種稻都是用「打電話種稻」的，如果說公糧提高，他當然很高興。但是當你去問到一些做品牌米的集團產區的話，他們反而是希望說透過他們的品牌提高它的價值以後去回饋給農民，那樣子才能夠持續去發展，如果公糧提高的話，這些集團產區的部分沒有辦法經營下去。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，你不要浪費我的時間，你說到底什麼時候我們稻米的出口產值可以增加、我們的價值可以增加，什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：我想稻米……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是你農業部部長應該要負擔的責任，提出你們的目標嘛！你說啊！什麼時候我們出口可以增加？"],["陳部長駿季：我想明年我們……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不要提高公糧收購的價格，什麼時候你才可以增加我們出口的產值？"],["陳部長駿季：我想出口的部分，第一個，我們現在已經積極在尋找國外的通路，因為通路是非常重要的，我剛才也說了，其實上個月我到日本去的時候，就有接到一些通路商，他們很願意進口，就是輸到日本的一些優質米，所以這個部分我們會積極去努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你跟我講什麼時候啦！"],["陳部長駿季：進口是持續在做，我們希望它的成長會更快速，會快速去……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你給我保證什麼時候我們出口會增加啦！你給我保證啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我想明年開始實施的話，出口一定會增加。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不要提高公糧收購的價格，你給我保證什麼時候我們出口會增加啦！會真正地增加農民的收入啦！你給我保證啦！"],["陳部長駿季：明年的部分，我想出口一定會增加，這個是一定確認，只是量的部分我們還要去跟不同國家的通路討論。另外一個是很多國家的米的進口也有配額的部分，所以相對地它必須要取得配額以後才能來進出口，這個也會努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我最後有一個問題，不要浪費我的時間，我就是要你保證而已嘛！要保證啊！我想要知道，我們去年缺蛋的時候，農委會補助了，農委會緊急進口了3萬隻的雛雞進來對不對？那時候蛋農需要的是中雞，可以產蛋的中雞，我們進口雛雞，那時候農民怎麼說的？農民說，如果一次專案進口3萬隻的種母雞進來，雖然它沒有辦法解決燃眉之急，他預估有可能就是在今年2024跟2025年，我們的雞蛋產量會大幅度地上升，導致現在我們面臨到雞蛋價格、產地價格大幅度地下跌，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實要穩定雞蛋的產銷，業者跟我們農業部都有責任，也是共同的目標，我們每一個禮拜都有提供相關的資訊，業者就應該根據這個資訊做相關的自主管理，包括種雞就必須要去淘汰，而不是放任種雞持續地變成蛋中雞，然後蛋雞場持續地不去做一個優化、去調節，而讓雞蛋繼續生產出來，因為要根據供需。農業部的部分我們會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：怎麼樣子調節現在的種雞？我問你，現在養雞協會說希望農業部可以補助淘汰種雞，但是現在淘汰種雞，會不會明年我們又變成沒有雞蛋了，會不會？"],["陳部長駿季：目前我們並沒有決定說要去做種雞淘汰的補助，我剛才非常強調，業者必須要去做自我管理，而不是放任，當他雞多的時候就放任，價錢低的時候就要求農委會去協助，然後價格高的時候，自己又變成自營商，我覺得產業應該有產業的自主。"],["謝委員衣鳯：農業部長、陳部長，你要怎麼解決這個問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會協調養雞協會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你現在說希望他們自主，那到時候他們自主淘汰太多，明年我們會不會又產生缺蛋的問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我們每個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們又要去進口雞蛋，會不會？"],["陳部長駿季：我們每個月基本上都提供了很完整的資訊，包括種雞、蛋中雞跟淘汰母雞的整個數量，業者非常清楚知道要怎麼自主管理，只是他們要不要做，我們會透過養雞協會的協調，看看有沒有辦法自主，農業部的部分也會增加雞蛋多元通路的協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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知道斷點嘛那什麼樣的人會衛照車牌知道斷點你知道嗎衛照車牌他車子是他的啊車牌掛別人的然後呢他繼續使用你知道衛照車牌有什麼好處嗎衛照車牌只要他不違規車牌的原主也不知道跟監的人也不知道所以等到查到要下手逮到的車發現根本"},{"start":423.609,"end":424.029,"text":"委員會主管列席"},{"start":440.885,"end":467.381,"text":"我有去報私嘛是不是這樣子我有去報私那基本上大概作案就跟我無關了嘛而且我報私之後警方會幫忙查這個是髒車歹徒拿去作案可能容易被抓到所以往下看現在這個偽造車牌呢就是因為車主不知道沒有人去報案車子也沒有掛也沒有報私所以呢他繼續用這個車輛的去作案製造的斷點是不是這樣那他這段時間的交通違規都算誰的"},{"start":468.442,"end":491.164,"text":"算原車主的啊 那車主怎麼辦 吃罰單 然後呢 要去監理站 要去撤銷 要去舉證然後呢 還要換車牌 部長你知道嗎 換車牌要不要錢 要這又跑這些行政作業 要不要時間 要然後呢 這個民眾 無辜的民眾呢 被人家調查 他舉證說 那個車子不是我的 要不要花工夫 要那部長 怎麼辦"},{"start":493.453,"end":507.242,"text":"你知道衛照車牌有多少重嗎?有多重的罪嗎?憲法212它是一年以下及與跟九千的罰金一年以下所以就知道了吧偷車拿髒車去翻案跟衛照車牌哪個罪比較重?"},{"start":509.953,"end":535.978,"text":"當然是偷車去追比較重啊衛照車牌什麼但是這是民國17年修正通過的當時說考量到什麼基於謀生意識便利這是民國17年的法律啊民國113年欸衛照車牌算不算衛照公文書特寵文書那為什麼衛照特寵文書是重罪啊那為什麼只有判一年以下因為刑法212條嘛"},{"start":538.049,"end":542.08,"text":"他把他排除在未照特種文書之外部長要不要修法"},{"start":543.07,"end":569.946,"text":"這部分我們已經納入那個行修小組的會議那個在11月份下個月就會開會你們怎麼方向修法方向是把它排除視同偽造文書還是不是偽造文書但是加重提醒他有兩種的一個方式立法的方式一種是在直接在212來修法因為一種就是比照附照條例附集法再倒交條例新增特別的那要罰多少要怎麼處罰怎麼量刑"},{"start":572.335,"end":580.805,"text":"那這部分還在研修小組再做一個討論那不會是一年以下吧偷車要多少年?竊盜罪幾年?竊盜罪幾年?竊盜罪"},{"start":583.1,"end":587.741,"text":"市長請說報告委員這個212的議題本來在這個15號就是前天的行修小組要討論但因為我們討論的方向有兩種一個就是212把它廢除掉並到就直接用公文書的刑徒來處罰另外一種方向就212加重刑徒的一個方式那因為"},{"start":613.647,"end":638.785,"text":"15號來不及討論會下個月就排進去我們勤修城部部長本期有提案部長那你覺得要加重處刑吧要不要這個應該可以要調整行程要調整但是我不只要求這個還要怎樣還要補償什麼受害人受害人不是犯罪受害人被偽造車牌車主他花的這些時間這些困擾要不要補償他怎麼補償偽造車牌的人能夠補償這個車牌的原車主嗎"},{"start":641.243,"end":652.826,"text":"你們有沒有一個犯罪被害人的一個基金請問一下我的車牌被人家偽造了我花那麼多功夫還繳了錢這些麻煩事我得不到任何補償嗎有沒有補償的機制來 次長黃次長 來"},{"start":660.734,"end":675.052,"text":"犯罪備案補償法他有特定的犯罪才可以遵守這個不是屬於那個特定的補償法我知道他有民事的訴訟程序這個錢不是很多你叫每一個未到車牌的車主去做這件事情不只是浪費司法資源"},{"start":677.755,"end":694.573,"text":"這個案子很簡單嘛 法官看一看你要民事訴訟 那就賠多少啊 大概有個數字啊你們難道要逼著我們法院 跟這個車牌的車主 被害人 去走這個途徑嗎有沒有辦法在我們的法制上 予以一個通案的設定讓他很簡易的 就可以得到補償部長 有沒有可能考慮一下"},{"start":699.793,"end":711.416,"text":"我們可以嚴厲可以嚴厲好我們希望偽造車牌這幾年基礎越演越烈都跟詐騙有關以前偷車拿張車去犯案都是暴力犯罪"},{"start":713.214,"end":742.246,"text":"都是暴力犯罪而且只要車子被偷你掛屍可能會被抓到現在的犯罪阿他是用偽造車牌用這個車子的行屍我們不是在打詐司法中有講到嗎你們用行動去監視他偽造車牌就是製造詐騙集團去跟相關的受害人接觸造成的斷點所以他才會這麼多那現在這麼多如果不及時的修法遏止會有越來越多不只是詐騙案還有很多車牌被偽造的車主"},{"start":742.85,"end":743.311,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時43分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請鄭部長……"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有國兩司的孟司長。"],["主席：好，孟司長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：召委好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，司長好。部長，昨天司法及法制委員會安排考察，你知道吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我們去看屏東地院和屏東地檢。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們希望未來能夠留住司法人才，為屏東鄉親服務，不管是法官還是檢察官，我們希望考量他們的居住需求，而且未來的司法園區能夠考量到便民，可能像包括行政執行署這些相關的機構都能納進來，請問你支不支持這樣的做法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們非常地感謝委員對我們的支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，後續請你要指派專人，我希望包括跟行政執行署、還有國產署、還有司法院，都會邀請他們，當然最重要的就是要敦請我們屏東縣政府一起來共同參與，希望部長用力推動，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。我們來看一下，請問部長，有沒有看到這個新聞？外國人在外國犯了罪逃到臺灣，要如何論罪？這個新聞說有個西班牙裔的義大利人涉及詐騙，來到臺灣之後身分就揭露了，後來您知道臺灣要怎麼處理嗎？您知道這個新聞嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有這樣的新聞。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：移民署……"],["鍾委員佳濱：移民署說什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：移民署有在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要限期出境？"],["鄭部長銘謙：命令他出境……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要驅逐出境？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是在10月10號有通知他到案說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得是要在臺灣把他抓起來審理，還是引渡回去西班牙還是義大利，還是要驅逐出境？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在是要求出境。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，要求出境。那臺灣跟西班牙、義大利國際刑事組織有沒有互助條約？我們怎麼樣掌握這些國際通緝犯在臺的動向？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我還是請司長……"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單講，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，OK。我們看一下，目前有簽司法互助條約的、民刑事的有這些國家，共11國，有引渡條約的就9國。跟那些沒有簽條約的國家怎麼去做合作、怎麼做互助？部長，怎麼做？司長，簡單講。"],["孟司長玉梅：簡單來講，如果我們跟其他國家之間沒有簽條約的話，我們會依照國際刑事司法互助法的規定，就是基於互惠原則，接受他們的請求之後，請他們依照我們所要求的形式，將這個請求書遞給外交部，外交部會做初審，然後再給我們法務部，我們法務部再來依照是不是符合我們國際刑事司法互助法的規定來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一個很具體的例子，臺灣人在臺灣涉案之後跑到日本去，怎麼辦？2023年臺日有簽訂司法合作備忘錄，可以視訊詢問，還是可以引渡回臺？"],["孟司長玉梅：有關臺日的合作備忘錄，是在法律的一些相關資料交換上面有這樣的一個合作備忘錄……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以跟涉案人的部分沒有關聯？"],["孟司長玉梅：還不達到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還不達到。現在就規定了，聽說有一個涉及到目前檢廉正在調查中的案子關係人，可能是證人，可能要傳喚，他已經跑到日本去了，結果這個人在日本，日本政府可以怎麼處理他？他可以一直躲在日本嗎？先不要問司長，部長，你覺得呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是媒體說除非遭驅逐出境，因為臺日沒有簽司法互助，沒辦法遣返，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣嘛。所以只要這個人沒有違反日本的法律，就可以繼續停留在日本，我們對他莫可奈何，對不對？是不是這樣子？他在日本只要沒有違法，日本就不會驅逐他出境嗎？有沒有？"],["孟司長玉梅：其實過往這種例子，我們的警方都會設法透過比如國際刑警組織，或者是跟日本的警方，透過警方的合作關係……"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後呢？"],["孟司長玉梅：然後希望他們能夠遣返……"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼樣？他在日本沒有犯法，日本警方奈他何？"],["孟司長玉梅：其實我們很多在第三國犯罪的臺灣涉嫌人……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在臺灣犯罪，他在日本沒有犯罪，你怎麼叫日本警方把他送出來？"],["孟司長玉梅：這個部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，知道原因了喔。所以其實這個是互助，相對地，臺灣人在外國犯罪，我們可不可以把他引渡回國？我們當然是反對毒品的販運，但是的確我們看到一些個案，在泰國、在東南亞這些國家對毒品管制很嚴格的，有些臺灣的年輕人幫人家帶登機箱，被抓到了，關在泰國的監獄裡面，你覺得這樣的臺灣人，法務部會希望將國人引渡回臺，來臺灣接受論罪、判刑，甚至接受我們的矯治嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想引渡也就是讓他回國來接受……用這樣的方法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，這些泰國有沒有？沒有嘛。越南有沒有？"],["孟司長玉梅：委員，我們跟泰國、跟越南都沒有簽署任何的引渡的條約。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛。"],["孟司長玉梅：都沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都完全沒有，也沒有任何的互助嘛。所以如果國人因為在其他國家像泰國或越南，不慎犯了當地的重罪，他大概就注定要在那邊關一輩子，很可能是這樣，是不是這樣？"],["孟司長玉梅：您現在是說如果他在那邊當地犯罪被判刑、入監服刑了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊。"],["孟司長玉梅：那個是涉及到受刑人移交的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那怎麼移交？也是有司法互助的範圍嗎？"],["孟司長玉梅：我們有跨國移交受刑人法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有受刑人移交？"],["孟司長玉梅：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，那就是我今天要問的。我們的結論小結，是不是請積極推動國際的司法互助，防止嫌犯出國，也能夠順利不管是引渡、還是移交回國內來處刑、來執行，可不可以？願不願意積極來處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會積極來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。部長，最近有些社會新聞，偽造車牌，很多人被害，你覺得什麼樣的案件會偽造車牌？我舉個例子，以前看警匪片，歹徒作案、搶銀行之前都是先偷贓車，做完案，再把贓車燒掉，對不對？是不是這樣子？為什麼要用贓車犯罪？怕被追查嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：製造斷點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：製造斷點嘛。那什麼樣的人會偽造車牌、製造斷點，你知道嗎？偽造車牌，車子是他的，車牌掛別人的，然後他繼續使用，你知道偽造車牌有什麼好處嗎？偽造車牌，只要他不違規，車牌的原主也不知道，跟監的人也不知道，所以等到查到要下手，逮到了車，發現根本不知道是誰的車，是不是這樣子？製造斷點。","我們往下看，目前假車牌氾濫預估已達到2,000件，贓車作案，被害人能夠及時發覺，而且還有很重要的，如果我的車被偷拿去作案，我有沒有責任？部長，你知道嗎？如果我的車被人家拿去作案，我怎麼樣免責？我有去報失嘛，是不是這樣子？我有去報失，那基本上大概作案就跟我無關了，而且我報失之後警方會幫忙查，這個是贓車，歹徒拿去作案可能容易被抓到。所以，我們往下看，現在這個偽造車牌就是因為車主不知道，沒有人去報案，車子也沒有報失，所以他可以繼續用這個車輛去作案，製造了斷點，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那他這段時間的交通違規都算誰的？算原車主的。那車主怎麼辦？吃罰單。然後呢？要去監理站，要去撤銷，要去舉證，然後還要換車牌。部長，你知道嗎？換車牌要不要錢？要。跑這些行政作業要不要時間？要。然後這個無辜的民眾被人家調查，他要舉證說那個車子不是我的，要不要花功夫？要。那部長，怎麼辦？你知道偽造車牌有多重的罪嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：根據刑法第二百一十二條，它是處一年以下有期徒刑、拘役或九千元以下的罰金。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一年以下啊！所以你就知道了吧！偷車拿贓車去犯案跟偽造車牌哪個罪比較重？當然是偷車的罪比較重，偽造車牌比較輕，但是這是民國17年修正通過的，當時說考量到什麼？偽造車牌多是基於謀生及一時便利，這是民國17年的法律，現在已是民國113年了耶！偽造車牌算不算偽造公文書？"],["鄭部長銘謙：特種文書。"],["鍾委員佳濱：既是特種文書，偽造特種文書是重罪，那為什麼偽造車牌只有判一年以下？因為刑法第二百一十二條把它排除在偽造特種文書之外嘛。部長，要不要修法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們已經納入刑修小組的會議，大概在11月份，下個月就會開會討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的修法方向是什麼？是把它排除，視同偽造文書；還是雖不算偽造文書，但是加重其刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：它有兩種立法的方式，一種是直接在第二百一十二條來修法，另外一種就是比照護照條例、戶籍法，在道交條例新增特別的刑責……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那要罰多少？要怎麼處罰？怎麼量刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分還是要研修小組再做一個討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那不會是一年以下吧？偷車要多少年？竊盜罪幾年？"],["鄭部長銘謙：竊盜罪是五年以下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：五年以下，所以我就不要去偷贓車了，偽造車牌就好了，一年以下嘛。方向是加重多少，加重到幾年？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不是請司長來？"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，司長請說。"],["郭司長永發：報告委員，第二百一十二條這個議題，本來在這個月15號，就是前天的刑修小組要討論，但因為我們討論的方向有兩種，一個就是把第二百一十二條廢除掉，就併到直接用公文書的刑度來處罰……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！"],["郭司長永發：另外一種方式，就是將第二百一十二條的刑度加重。因為15號來不及討論，下個月就會排進去我們的刑修小組來討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，下個月。部長，本席有提案，部長，你覺得要加重處刑吧，要不要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個應該要調整刑期。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要調整，但我不只要求這個，還要怎樣？還要補償受害人。我說的受害人不是指犯罪被害人，而是被偽造車牌的車主，他花的這些時間，遭受的這些困擾，要不要補償他？怎麼補償？偽造車牌的人能夠補償被偽造車牌的原車主嗎？你們有沒有一個犯罪被害人的基金？請問一下，我的車牌被人家偽造了，我花那麼多的功夫，還繳了錢，這些麻煩事，我得不到任何補償嗎？有沒有補償的機制？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在民事的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，次長，請黃次長來。"],["黃次長謀信：我們的犯罪被害人補償法，它要特定的犯罪才可以申請補償……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["黃次長謀信：這個不是屬於那個特定的犯罪……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道。"],["黃次長謀信：所以他要另外循民事求償。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他要循民事的訴訟程序。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個錢不是很多，你叫每一個被偽造車牌的車主去做這件事情，不只浪費人力，更是浪費司法資源耶！這個案子很簡單嘛，法官看一看，你要民事訴訟，那就賠多少，大概有個數字，你們難道要逼著我們法院跟被偽造車牌的車主被害人去走這個途徑嗎？有沒有辦法在我們的法制上予以一個通案的設定，讓他很簡易的就可以得到補償。部長，有沒有可能考慮一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們可以研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以研議？好。偽造車牌這幾年之所以越演越烈都跟詐騙有關，以前偷車拿贓車去犯案都是暴力犯罪，都是暴力犯罪，而且只要車子被偷，車主一掛失很容易被抓到。現在的犯罪是用偽造車牌，用這個車子的行駛，我們不是在打詐四法中有講到嗎？你們去監視他的行動，偽造車牌的目的就是在詐騙集團去跟相關的受害人接觸時製造斷點，所以它才會這麼多。現在有這麼多偽造車牌，如果不及時修法遏止，會有越來越多，不只是詐騙案，還有很多車牌被偽造的車主會有很大的損失。所以是不是我們考量一下，要補償這些受害人，好不好？研議一下。可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。我們去研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。謝謝。"],["主席：現在依照先前的宣告，我們休息10分鐘。","休息（10時55分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：好，我們繼續開會。","現在有請翁委員曉玲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},{"id":"155692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30659f64ed18bf67f194de4e273edfded79496f892b6d7a78c0a970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:47:53 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這個我們本週一的這個中國的聯合力艦2024B的這個軍演當然我想大家這幾天都討論很多但我們看到一個狀況"},{"start":21.687,"end":44.247,"text":"在中國的一個媒體這個鳳凰衛視他刊登了一則新聞在這新聞上面他直接在地圖上面標出了我們這雄風機動發動車的部署的位置其中還寫出包括海豐四中隊甚至還有部署在淡水跟花蓮的地址然後甚至包括了經緯度"},{"start":46.431,"end":64.37,"text":"部長你知道為什麼這個媒體可以得到這些部署位置的地址跟座標嗎?經緯度座標我想就這些我們的陣地的這個位置透過相關的位照應該就是可以取得吧"},{"start":65.639,"end":93.173,"text":"但是我並不知道鳳凰衛視本身到底是怎麼取得的這個新聞上面是這樣寫他說這是中國的網友那他結合了包括青年日報上面的照片也包括結合民眾拍攝的照片還有網路上面的街景的照片那他去辨識出這個相關的路標海堤建築物那透過這個方式去反向去找到"},{"start":94.087,"end":94.147,"text":"主席"},{"start":107.315,"end":127.424,"text":"部長我想問如果中國網友就能夠做出像這樣子的地理定位的話來推算出我們國軍對於中國這個軍這次軍演的很多軍隊的部署其實這等於是暴露我們其實一些應處相關的作為部長你覺得如果中國網友就能這樣做那你覺得解放軍做不做得到"},{"start":129.427,"end":143,"text":"跟委員報告我想解放軍當然可以照到我們固定的陣地位置那現在就是說最重要的是在於一旦有任何狀況的時候我們的機動的戰術的位置這個部分要讓"},{"start":144.121,"end":144.541,"text":"用移動式或機動的方式"},{"start":172.638,"end":191.013,"text":"這些反艦的飛彈去嚇阻但是如果在每次的演習都能夠用類似的方式去曝露出海中大隊部署的位置其實他反覆可以操作個兩三次他大概就可以摸索出你部署的模式跟邏輯"},{"start":192.415,"end":220.674,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":221.074,"end":245.165,"text":"委員好我是海軍參謀長那我們整個地面的一個機動雷達還有機動的飛彈的車主對他都有他的機動路線以及戰術位置的選刊是那我們在每次在做這些因應的這個反應的這些這些他的認知作戰的部分我們也會做一些必要的演練跟訓練那這些部分我們都有一個比較"},{"start":246.145,"end":263.984,"text":"秘密的計算包含了訓擊管理就是我怎麼樣能夠減少通信跟減少暴露的程度那後面我們也會針對這個怎麼樣演訓跟演練機動路線的時候不把這一個跟作戰安全的部分要做一個調整這我們也在做一個比較必要的質疑"},{"start":264.764,"end":279.81,"text":"我們今天在這個議題上面還是做一個提醒就是說對方是有可能用這個方式來鋪位置不管是你固定式的設施或者是機動式的設施都有可能如果是機動式的設施更不希望被摸索出你部署的邏輯"},{"start":281.711,"end":308.493,"text":"這部分還是希望國防部再帶回去對 洪委員指教的是所以現在信機管理這件事情是我們重要的一個演練的一個項目之一那確實是要讓這個你剛剛講了說他直接用推演可以推演到你的戰術位置的話那這個部分就會暴露那所以我們要提高存活力的話我們就做好我們的信機管理"},{"start":309.213,"end":333.204,"text":"這部分再麻煩我覺得部長再帶回去那看還有沒有什麼更強化的應處的措施那接下來部長我還想跟你再討論的事情是我們接下來會恢復一年義務役的問題那當然大家知道說恢復一年義務役的工作其實當然是強化我們整體的防衛嚇阻的力量我們再做一點推算現在大家都知道這個2005年出生以後的義男恢復一年的義務役"},{"start":334.324,"end":345.888,"text":"那這一批藝男在2027年的時候會滿22歲喔大概就是他們大專畢業的年紀喔那部長我們問了藝政司跟國防部他們預估這個2027年會新增3.5萬的"},{"start":350.461,"end":352.284,"text":"數字推算起來是這樣"},{"start":365.455,"end":382.45,"text":"那同時間可是我們也問了過去3年支援役軍官跟士官的結訓人數就學班跟就業班兩個加總起來的話每年結訓的平均人數也大概剛好差不多是3500人但這只能是滿足我剛才講這樣的需求"},{"start":383.311,"end":410.125,"text":"所以部長我們現在問題想問的是說如果光靠志願役的這個軍事官的話其實2027年恐怕是需要6500名推算起來需要6500名的捷訓的軍事官才能夠帶領現有的志願役跟新增的EWE不然就不容易發展不容易發揮戰力所以部長我這邊想問一下說其實針對目前新增的一年的EWE那"},{"start":410.965,"end":439.37,"text":"我們打算怎麼來補足這個基層的軍事官你才有足夠能夠帶領這些義務役的人才人力部長我們接下來怎麼做我想義務役的在在這個接受義務役的期間是一段那麼退下來以後成為後備裡面力量的一環那這個整個基層的軍事官的人力的補足這個部分的詳細的部分的事情能支持"},{"start":440.902,"end":460.3,"text":"委員好,我是聯誼市長。向跟委員報告,就是說目前我們每年,像以今年為例好了,113年,我們今年7月份,就是說我們不管是ROTC、官校正期班、各個班隊畢業的任少位的人數大概是3500人。"},{"start":461.781,"end":464.102,"text":"我再給你看下面一個資訊我們其實有找到2013年到2017年上一次EWE的資料"},{"start":483.769,"end":509.192,"text":"那其實義務役軍御官御士每年報考的人數其實5年大概800到8000人那這個錄取的比例是22%如果按照這個數據在推算的話2027年如果有要有3000名的義務役的御官御士如果你要用義務役的過去用義務役御官御士的話那我們其實需要有1.4萬人報考御官御士才能夠足夠"},{"start":511.516,"end":534.757,"text":"2013年報考人數其實是最多當時報考是有8000人那當年22歲的男性是16萬人大家都知道我們接下來少子化的問題所以2027年如果需要1.4萬人報考的話當年度22歲的男性的人數大概下降到10萬人大概"},{"start":535.782,"end":536.262,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":554.093,"end":574.302,"text":"那我們現在打算怎麼做啊?兩個因素,我們第一個我們EWE一年增加帶領的這個EWE的人要變多第二個又遇到少子化,人又變少這兩個多重因素之下,假設我要把報考的人數從比例原本從5%喔拉到14%等於要提高3倍喔"},{"start":575.575,"end":603.658,"text":"跟委員報告我們會依據當時的編憲比的狀況比如說我現在後備部隊的組織編裝一直在調整換句話講我少的排長會少很多那我們會逐年地來檢討到116年御官跟御士到底要多少人我們會把缺員的部分全部把它算出來然後再去是啦照理來說這現在就可以算出來了嘛對但是我們不可能到116年才來準備這件事情嘛"},{"start":604.673,"end":624.494,"text":"我一定是現在就要把五年以後三年後的狀況給推算出來所以我現在在三四年前我就要做什麼樣子的準備嗎我要怎麼樣來提高吸引異難或來報考的比例我們這樣算起來是要增加三倍喔報考的比率要增加三倍"},{"start":625.782,"end":652.663,"text":"那我現在就要準備了,所以你不能等到那時候再算啊?沒有問題,這個數據我們都會去把它算出來然後去,最主要就是說,因為他就算116年畢業之後,並不是每個人都會來考預官他可能讀研究所,他可能到國外去讀市長,我現在的問題,我的時間快到了但我要問的事情是說,如果我們現在就能對2027年的狀況做出預估的話假設報考的比率要提高三倍"},{"start":653.183,"end":678.955,"text":"是那我們現在為了這提高三倍我們現在做了什麼樣子的準備跟規劃去吸引這些藝男到2027的時候願意用三倍的比例來去報考業務役的藝術藝官我現在問題是這個跟委員報告我們一個月之內跟到委員辦公室來把一個月對不對是可以把這事情來跟我們說明清楚是好不好那沒問題一個月包括數字推估清楚跟應處的作為規劃清楚好不好可以嗎是是好謝謝謝謝洪申翰"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時47分）請顧部長。"],["主席：顧部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。本週一中國的聯合利劍2024-B的這個軍演，當然我想大家這幾天都討論很多，但我們看到一個狀況，在中國的一個媒體鳳凰衛視刊登了一則新聞，這個新聞直接在地圖上面，標出了我們的雄風機動發動車的部署位置，其中還寫出包括海鋒四中隊，甚至還有部署在淡水跟花蓮的地址，甚至包括了經緯度。部長，你知道為什麼這個媒體可以得到這些部署位置的地址跟經緯度座標嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想就這些我們的陣地的位置，透過相關的衛照應該就可以取得，但是我並不知道鳳凰衛視本身到底是怎麼取得的，不過……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，這個新聞上面是這樣寫，它說這是中國的網友結合包括青年日報上面的照片，也結合包括民眾拍攝的照片，還有網路上面的街景照片，去辨識出相關的路標、海堤、建築物，透過這個方式去反向找到我們這些重要軍事部署的位置，包括經緯度，也包括大概就知道我們這些東西附屬在哪個停車場，地點在哪裡、位置在哪裡，非常非常精細。部長，我想問，如果中國網友就能夠做出像這樣子的地理定位，推算出我們國軍對於中國這次軍演的很多軍隊的部署，其實這等於是暴露了我們的一些相關的應處作為。部長，如果中國的網友就能這樣做，那你覺得解放軍做不做得到？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想解放軍當然可以照到我們固定的陣地位置，現在最重要的是在於一旦有任何狀況的時候，我們機動的戰術位置，這個部分要讓解放軍不能夠察覺，所以機動的戰術位置是一個重要的事項，而且這樣的機動戰術的位置應該不會是只有一個，可能是好多個。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我同意，比方說海鋒大隊，它成軍的目的其實就是要讓解放軍難以捉摸，用移動式或機動的方式以反艦飛彈去嚇阻。但是如果每次演習都能夠用類似的方式去暴露出海鋒大隊部署的位置，其實反覆操作兩、三次，它大概就可以摸索出你部署的模式跟邏輯，可能不是一次，但他可能做個兩、三次，大概它就可以推敲出你的邏輯，當推敲出邏輯以後，這個部分他就可以累積情資，甚至知道有哪些部署的地點，那其實某個部分當然也會降低我們原本設計想要嚇阻的效果。部長，所以我在這邊想提醒你這件事情，我覺得我們對類似的事情應該要再提高一些警覺，甚至有沒有什麼應對的作法？這是我想要問部長的問題。"],["顧部長立雄：請邱參謀長來說明。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好，我是海軍參謀長，我們整個地面的機動雷達還有機動的飛彈車組都有其機動路線以及戰術位置的選勘。那我們每次在因應它的認知作戰這個部分，我們也會做一些必要的演練跟訓練，對這些部分我們都有一個比較精密的計算，包含了訊跡管理，就是我們怎麼樣能夠減少通信跟減少暴露的程度，後面我們也會針對怎麼樣在演訓跟演練機動路線的時候，就這個作戰安全的部分調整，這我們也在做一個比較必要的指引。"],["洪委員申翰：我們今天在這個議題上面還是做一個提醒，就是對方有可能用這個方式來暴露位置，不管是固定式的設施或者是機動式的設施，一樣都有可能。如果是機動式的設施的話，更不希望被摸索出你部署的邏輯，這部分還是希望國防部再帶回去……"],["顧部長立雄：對，洪委員指教的是，所以現在訊跡管理這件事情是我們重要的演練項目之一。確實就像你剛剛講的，如果它直接推演就可以推演到你的戰術位置的話，那這個部分就會暴露。"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["顧部長立雄：所以如果我們要提高存活率的話，我們就要做好我們的訊跡管理。"],["洪委員申翰：好，這部分再麻煩部長帶回去，看還有沒有什麼更強化的應處措施。接下來，我還想再跟部長討論的事情是我們接下來會恢復一年義務役的問題，當然大家也知道，恢復一年義務役的工作當然是要強化我們整體的防衛、嚇阻的力量。我們再做一點推算，現在大家都知道，在2005年以後出生的役男恢復一年的義務役，這一批役男在2027年的時候會滿22歲，大概就是他們大專畢業的年紀。部長，我們問了役政司跟國防部，他們預估在2027年會新增3.5萬的役男入伍，如果算起來，這一批3.5萬名役男可能需要大概3,000名軍官跟士官才能夠帶領他們成為有效的戰力，推算起來的數字是這樣。部長，可是我們也問了過去3年志願役軍官跟士官的結訓人數，就學班跟就業班兩個加總起來的話，每年結訓的平均人數也大概剛好差不多是3,500人，這只能滿足我剛才所講這樣的需求。部長，我們現在想問的是，如果光靠志願役的軍士官的話，其實2027年恐怕是需要6,500名，推算起來需要6,500名結訓的軍士官才能夠帶領現有的志願役跟新增的義務役，不然就很不容易發揮戰力。部長，我想問一下，其實針對目前新增的一年義務役，我們打算怎麼來補足基層的軍士官？這樣你才有足夠能夠帶領這些義務役的人才、人力，部長，我們接下來怎麼做？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個接受義務役的期間是一段，那麼退下來以後成為後備力量裡面的一環，關於整個基層軍士官人力的補足，請人次室說明詳細的部分。"],["劉次長沛智：委員好，我是聯一次長，先跟委員報告，以今年為例，在113年7月分，我們ROTC、官校正期班、各班隊畢業任少尉的人數大概是3,500人，包含專業軍官班，所以我們每年補充到基層軍官的人數可以滿足我們現在少尉80%的需求，因為很多少尉升中尉、中尉升上尉，每年會……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我再給你看一個資訊，我們其實有找到2013年到2017年上一次義務役的資料，其實義務役預官預士考試在這5年中，每年報考的人數大概是800到8,000人，錄取的比率是22%，如果按照這個數據推算的話，2027年如果要有3,000名的義務役預官、預士，如果你要像過去用義務役預官、預士的話，那我們其實需要有1.4萬人報考，這樣預官、預士才能足夠。那2013年報考的人數其實最多，當時有8,000人報考，當年22歲的男性是16萬人，大家都知道，我們接下來有少子化的問題，所以2027年如果需要1.4萬人報考的話，當年度22歲男性的人數大概下降到10萬人，大概變成只有一半出頭一點而已，所以等於報考的比率要提高到14%。我要問國防部，我們接下來可能要把義務役預士或預官的報考人數大幅提升，這部分要有作為啊！那我們現在打算怎麼做？這有兩個因素，第一個，我們一年的義務役增加，帶領這些義務役的人要變多；第二個又遇到少子化，人又變少，在這兩個因素之下，假設我要把報考的比率從原本的5%拉到14%，等於要提高3倍。"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們會依據當時編現比的狀況，比如說，現在後備部隊的組織編裝一直在調整，換句話講，我的排長會少很多，那我們會逐年來檢討到116年預官跟預士到底要多少人，我們會把缺員的部分全部算出來，然後再去……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，照理來說，這現在就可以算出來了嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：對，但是……"],["洪委員申翰：我們不可能到116年才來準備這件事情，我一定是現在就要把5年後、3年後的狀況給推算出來，所以我現在也就是在三、四年前就要做什麼樣子的準備嘛！我要怎麼樣來吸引役男以提高報考的比率，我們這樣算起來是要增加3倍，就是報考的比率要增加3倍。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["洪委員申翰：那我現在就要準備了，你不能等到那時候再算啊！"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，沒有問題，我們都會去把這個數據算出來，最主要是就算他們在116年畢業之後，並不是每個人都會來考預官，可能讀研究所，可能到國外去讀，有很多很多因素。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我的時間快到了，我要問的事情是，如果我們現在就能對2027年的狀況做出預估的話，假設報考的比率要提高3倍，我們現在為了提高3倍，做了什麼樣的準備跟規劃去吸引這些役男，讓他們到2027年的時候願意達到3倍的比率去報考義務役的預士、預官？我現在要問的問題是這個。"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們一個月之內到委員辦公室把這個事情報告清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：一個月對不對？把這個事情跟我們說明清楚，好不好？"],["劉次長沛智：沒問題。"],["洪委員申翰：一個月，包括數字要推估清楚，還有應處的作為要規劃清楚，可以嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪申翰委員，部長、各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065f6b2a24941aef9f93464761d5dfc4adc96f892b6d7a78c0a089d1730ef7b1b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:47:29 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﹏﹏"},{"start":198.797,"end":225.744,"text":"做一個這個這個協調這個溝通那現在總統跳出來說沒有現代沒有現代令這個就是自己就打自己的臉嗎因為因為報告委員就是說我記得我記得很清楚院長跟總統呢他在講就是說沒有現代令他說官方沒有現代令的這個事情因為剛剛我解釋的就是說現代令是"},{"start":226.704,"end":251.662,"text":"各個銀行因為銀行法72條之二的一個限制他們自己來所做的一個措施那這個跟政府、行政院、跟總統、跟中央銀行沒有關係的是沒有關係的所以我當然希望每一個年輕人都能夠擁有自己的房子但是不是靠著說去"},{"start":253.684,"end":267.154,"text":"拜訪成數或拉高上限用這種方法去鼓勵年輕人買房那寬限期過了過了之後造成後面的我們無法想像會什麼情況這因為我們擔憂的嘛所以拜託請這位總裁有機會跟總理講不要再這樣子的"},{"start":273.539,"end":296.037,"text":"拜託不要亂說,不然他會說你沒錢你做的這個工作然後又要來扮黑臉來收拾產局當然也要跟財政部講因為這個政策帶給你們很大的困擾那我們祭出第七波的信用管制是因為資金過度流入不動產的一個風險是巨大的所以我們從很多的國家我們可以看到這個房市泡沫化的產礦"},{"start":297.421,"end":318.353,"text":"好的央行能夠頂住壓力本席很肯定我們楊總裁能夠預視到未來可能發生的風險及時提出因應措施但是也因為提出的狀況過於急躁導致於說這項政策有不少無辜的民眾被捲入其中這你不否認"},{"start":322.848,"end":349.197,"text":"受到相關的限制我有看到央行在10月9日發布的第七波信用管制的一個配套那裡面有三大內容就是說包括這個繼承取得房屋及房貸還有實質換入需求已經與這個金融機構竊解約定的還有自然人已簽訂購屋合約然後即將申辦貸款的這個都排除適用所以就是說"},{"start":350.797,"end":371.47,"text":"拜託反應夠快,反應夠快,但是我要說的就是說雖然這一次我們能夠在短時間內來想出這些配套的方法但是問題是說民眾的心裡因為我們就是要政策要安定政策要可以期待要讓人民可以放心所以說在"},{"start":372.31,"end":389.66,"text":"在制定政策的時候事先在問題建構的階段就應該把這些利害相關都考慮其中不然到後面事後發現來做事後的補救老實講這個是事倍功半啦會得到這個民眾反而會失去信心"},{"start":391.221,"end":419.696,"text":"打掃房的確是維持經濟穩定的一個重要措施那尤其是現今我們的房市過熱那房價高漲泡沫化的這個風險這個漸漸升高的情況之下所以央行跟政府有責任透過一個審慎的政策干預來避免過度的投機行為導致的危機所以這不是短期的行為是一個需要全盤考量"},{"start":420.676,"end":442.07,"text":"續持失利的一個長期的戰略那政策的穩定性最重要我要在這邊再提醒總裁朝夕另改會使市場混亂我們一直在提醒那如果認為政策確實會動搖民心我們就要提出建言要提出要求"},{"start":443.451,"end":464.87,"text":"所以我想在未來在設計打房措施的時候我們的可預見性跟透明性這個部分政策的制定打草房不應該只是針對某一個群組或者是暫時性的市場波動是一個持續監管跟調節市場的一種手段一種方法"},{"start":465.951,"end":478.319,"text":"我想能夠回應市場的變化跟民眾的需求才能夠真正體現整體經濟的一個平衡的發展因為時間有限我想就再請教總裁一個問題就是這個CBDC數位貨幣的議題"},{"start":484.003,"end":505.692,"text":"上個會期我就跟你探討過CBDC的進度那CBDC涉及到許多利害關係人那同時也是需要跨部會的一個技術合作那這為了跟上全球化世界的步伐所以我知道這項技術不能貿然倉促的上路一定要考慮完整完善"},{"start":506.392,"end":532.089,"text":"那在上個會期以及你們這一次的業務報告書裡面本期都有看到你們除行平台會先與速發部進行合作那未來政府機關會透過速發部的平台發放這個數位券那請問總裁數位券的功能是什麼是哪些人是這除行平台的主要用戶那因為平台是除行代"},{"start":533.629,"end":556.923,"text":"應該不會是全民都能夠使用所以我想要請利用一點點時間總裁可以為我們說明一下我初步我先跟委員報告事實上數位券就是說數位券包括委員我們有兩次的那個消費券有沒有消費券那個時候呢消費券是資本的"},{"start":557.799,"end":574.15,"text":"那如果說我們把這個資本的消費券呢把它變成數位化那來協助政府呢來發放那這樣的話會省時間而且呢我們如果按照我們的這個平台來講的話呢我們那個平台它的容量呢會足夠的來應付它"},{"start":575.331,"end":575.351,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":593.462,"end":621.455,"text":"總裁在發行數位貨幣上包含數位券還有其他的部分對希望央行能夠舉辦更多的這樣子的一個公聽會我們公聽會、說明會還有那個論壇我們都會然後納入更多元的意見是是是利害關心人之間多一個意見的交換我們會我們會政府DC可以上路可以順利是好謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵好謝謝坤衡委員那接著請王世堅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時47分）主席、各位列席官員，大家好。主席，有請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：好，請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員早。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁早。總裁，現在民眾最關心的就是央行理監事會決議宣布的第七波房市信用管制，雖是用來抑制炒房，卻引發了金融風暴。根據銀行法第七十二條之二規定，商業銀行辦理住宅建築及企業建築放款之總額，不得超過30%，主要是在防止金融機構因為過度放貸引發系統性風險。總裁，你在8月中及9月初時邀請各銀行高管就不動產集中度過高進行檢討，要求銀行提出不動產貸款總量的方案，這一波被外界解釋為限貸令，但是賴總統隨即跳出來說沒有限貸令，央行只是提醒而非要求。請教總裁，賴總統的這個說法是不是在打央行的臉？你們前面才說要就不動產貸款總量進行檢討方案，總統後腳就直接跳出來說你們這樣的因應措施過當，你有沒有覺得……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有說我們的因應過當，而是說……限貸令的部分，這個我們也向外解釋了幾次，所謂限貸令是因為根據第七十二條之二規定，各個銀行已經快到達30%的警戒值，大概到28%就要警戒了，因為到達28%的時候，資源就只剩下一點點，必須要做一些資源的分配，因此他們做了自主性限制。限貸令是銀行做的，不是政府做的，所以總統跟院長才會說：沒有，政府沒有所謂的限貸令……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，總裁，我在這邊要很直白的說，會讓你們這麼頭痛，要你們扮黑臉，主要根本原因就在新青安，對不對？新青安放款到現在超過40%、超過六千多億，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我們也要……"],["顏委員寬恒：沒關係，我跟你說，新青安有5年寬限期，所以昨天財政部長也說了，大概有超過百分之二十幾的部分是所謂的5年寬限期，其他部分不在這5年之內，有3年等等，我要說的是，這樣的情況，導致很多沒有辦法負擔的人也跟著一起貸，就是沒有衡量自己的能力或者怎麼樣，當然，我們希望每個人都能夠買到自己的房子，每個青年都能夠完成他們的夢想，但是這麼多人一起貸，銀行的錢當然不夠，所以說新青安造成銀行放貸房地產的比例過高，央行才做出警示，然後跟這些銀行做協調、溝通，現在總統跳出來說沒有限貸令，這就是自己打自己的臉嘛！對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。報告委員，我記得很清楚，院長跟總統都說官方沒有限貸令這件事。我剛剛解釋過，限貸令是各銀行因銀行法第七十二條之二的限制而做的一項措施，和政府、行政院跟總統、跟中央銀行沒有關係。"],["顏委員寬恒：我希望每個年輕人都能擁有自己的房子，但不是靠著提高貸款成數或拉高上限，用這種方法鼓勵年輕人買房。而且寬限期過了之後，後面會有什麼情況我們無法想像，這才是我們擔憂的，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["顏委員寬恒：請總裁有機會跟總統講，不要再亂講，他這樣一講就枉費了你們辛苦所為，還要扮黑臉收拾殘局。當然，也要跟財政部講，畢竟這項政策帶給你們很大的困擾。央行祭出第七波信用管制，是因為資金過度流入不動產，風險是巨大的，這點我們在很多國家都可以看到房市泡沫化的慘況。好的央行能夠頂住壓力，所以本席肯定楊總裁能預視到未來可能發生的風險，及時提出因應措施。但也因為提出措施過於急躁，導致有不少無辜的民眾被捲入這項政策，也受到相關限制，這點你不否認吧？央行在10月9日發布第七波信用管制的相關配套，裡面有三大內容，包括繼承取得房屋及房貸；有實質換屋需求，已經與金融機構切結約定者；自然人已簽訂購屋合約，即將申辦貸款者都排除適用。還好反應夠快！還好反應夠快！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：但我要說的是，雖然這一次央行能在短時間內想出配套方法，不過民眾的心裡……政策要安定，政策要可以期待，要讓人民可以放心……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以在制定政策時、在問題建構階段，就應該事先把利害相關考慮清楚，否則事後發現、事後補救，老實講，事倍功半，反而會讓民眾失去信心。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["顏委員寬恒：打炒房的確是維持經濟穩定的重要措施，尤其現今房市過熱，在房價高漲泡沫化的風險漸漸升高的情況之下，央行跟政府有責任透過審慎的政策干預，來避免過度的投機行為導致危機發生。所以這不是短期的行為，而是需要全盤考量，持續施力的長期戰略。政策的穩定性最重要，所以我在這邊要再提醒總裁，朝令夕改會使市場混亂，這點我們一直在提醒、一直在提醒。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果認為政策確實會動搖民心，那我們就要提出建言、提出要求。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：未來在設計打房措施時，政策制定必須有可預見性與透明性，且打炒房不應該只針對某個群組或暫時性的市場波動，而是持續監管與調節市場的手段、方法，能夠回應市場的變化跟民眾的需求，才能真正體現整體經濟的平衡發展。","因為時間有限，我再請教總裁有關CBDC數位貨幣的議題。上會期我就跟你探討過CBDC的進度，由於CBDC涉及許多利害關係人，同時也需要跨部會的技術合作……"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["顏委員寬恒：雖為了跟上全球化與世界的步伐，但這項技術不能貿然倉促上路，一定要考慮完整、完善。在上會期及這次的業務報告裡，本席都看到你們說會先與數發部合作雛形平臺，未來政府機關會透過數發部的平臺發放數位券。請問總裁，數位券的功能是什麼？哪些人是雛形平臺的主要用戶？因為平臺只是雛形，應該不是全民都能使用，所以我想利用一點點時間請總裁跟我們說明一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：我初步先跟委員報告，事實上，數位券……委員，以前我們有兩次發放消費券，那時候的消費券是紙本的，如果把紙本消費券數位化，協助政府發放，這樣的話可以省時間。以我們的平臺來講，容量足夠全省發放，其實不只可以全省發放，個別政府如果要發放什麼券，振興券也好，什麼券也好，都可以透過這個平臺。我們希望這個平臺能協助政府做這件事。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。在發行數位貨幣上，包含數位券還有其他的部分……"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對。"],["顏委員寬恒：希望央行能夠舉辦更多的公聽會……"],["楊總裁金龍：不管公聽會、說明會，還有論壇，我們都會舉辦。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，然後納入更多元的意見……"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"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品質拉得更好 我們就有機會我們在衝的是質而不是在衝量我覺得這個是比較有意義的那再來是雜糧的部分其實也是很重要的嘛我們也希望未來這塊雜糧的部分部裡面也持續在加強來推動啦"},{"start":353.321,"end":381.901,"text":"會,我想我們在二轉的部分其實就是有一些不中到的獎勵就希望他們不中到然後轉到雜糧那提高雜糧以後我們的自給率就會提升對我們糧食安全也會有確保這個我想我們會繼續來對,就是雜糧我們現在的是需求大於供給的啦是在這種狀況下的時候其實引導如果農民往這個方向的話其實他的收益會來得更好是而不是去中的到然後用供糧這個部分反倒不見得是最好的選擇是所以我希望"},{"start":383.121,"end":399.547,"text":"農業部持續的溝通啊,持續的能夠...對,我們會在這裡溝通好,那再來我要講其實要把握一點時間齁,前陣漁港其實很重要的一個建設啦齁,那但是我看了一下整個這個進度齁,多功能水產品的運銷中心的整個進度落後了41點多部長為什麼落後這麼多"},{"start":403.427,"end":431.005,"text":"我想這個部分國度組在執行的話我想我們也會要求國度組在這個部分能夠把過去落後的進度能夠趕上因為這個部分是大家所期待的那相對的我們有一些部分包括漁港的那個深度碼頭的部分都在做了現在最重要的就是一個運銷的加工這個中心這個中心完了以後就能夠串接整個部分其他的進度大致上有的營館層有的這一個落後的最多啦那我希望"},{"start":431.705,"end":431.986,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":449.783,"end":453.127,"text":"部長這個可能要請還是要持續的邀請我講過很多次這個若你邀請到的是夠大的"},{"start":473.187,"end":474.107,"text":"謝謝委員提醒喔 我也認為就是說一個一個一個營運經營主體一定選擇非常重要"},{"start":492.934,"end":515.304,"text":"選擇得對的話,後續就會非常順利,如果說選擇不對的時候,可能造成後續不好的一個面向發展,這個部分我想特別要努力。因為你選擇好的,光他自己可能就很在乎他的品牌了啦,他不會輕易砸掉自己的招牌嘛,所以他也會很認真,但是他進來他一定會經過很多的評估,包括他的投資能不能達到他的效益,所以我也希望,我知道年限有做了一些放寬,我也希望這是一個長遠的計畫,"},{"start":516.925,"end":538.076,"text":"牆上加牆啊我希望一個好的地點好的建築之後找到好的企業廠商來一起來合作那你希望把這個前鎮醫館齁國內最大的營養醫館把它效益擴展到最大好了解謝謝委員的提醒我們期待看到他確實有未來的主地市場豐洲市場那樣的一個樣貌能夠吸引更多國內外的到那邊去做採購好不好是好謝謝部長好辛苦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時41分）好，謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長辛苦了。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先請教一個問題，一個政策成敗的責任最後會由行政機關還是由立法機關來負起責任？"],["陳部長駿季：政策的推動一定是由行政單位來負最後的責任……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這件事情最後的成敗與否，立法機關那邊給了很多的建議……"],["陳部長駿季：對，成敗一定是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是最後萬一這個政策有問題，其實都是由行政機關來負責。"],["陳部長駿季：是，行政機關來負責。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我覺得這東西的權責其實要分得清楚啦。當然，立法機關會有很多民意反映的一些意見，但是最後都會回到行政機關身上，那行政機關最後有你們整體的考量，因為國家的資源有限下，它勢必要做很多優先順序的一些排列，怎樣照顧到最多人，立法者或民意代表往往會有各自的一些考量，但是如果完全都順著這個走的時候，有時候會有些偏頗，不見得是對於整個國家或整體都是最有利的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我想感受得到啦！部長當然承受到相當多的壓力，不過我還是建議就是要照著行政機關該有的程序來走，因為即使你全部聽了立法院的建議，最後如果萬一這個政策是失敗的，負起責任的其實是部長，不會是立法委員，所以我覺得這件事情還是要回歸這樣來談。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我自己也當過局長，我很清楚這個分際。有關稻米的部分其實大家在努力，很多的策略上的不同，提高公糧價格當然是一種選擇的方式，但是我看到部長其實比較認可跟支持採用「1集、2轉、3加3」的稻米產業方案，部長，要不要簡單幾句話來講一下兩者之間的優缺，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們分三個面向來講，第一個部分就是當農業部在推動一個政策的時候，對一個產業來講，我們希望政策的推動對所有這個產業的人、農民都能夠同時受益到，而不是針對特定的族群，這是我們在思考的第一點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以公糧的部分是占少數。"],["陳部長駿季：公糧的部分就是特定的少數。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對整個產業不見得是最好的選擇。"],["陳部長駿季：對，第二個部分就是從經費的角度，我們希望用最少的經費能夠發揮最大的效益，而這個政策不會跟其他的政策有互相扞格的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也就是說，發錢不見得是最好的方式。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：去運用這些錢，讓它能夠提升更好的產值、提升更好的效益，反倒會有更好的效果。"],["陳部長駿季：對，然後第三個部分也是最重要，就是說我們在考慮的，當我用政府的資源投入在某一個產業特定的族群的時候，其他的產業相對的會受到一些經費的排擠，特別是我們現在推動很多包括對地綠色給付，都是希望能夠降低稻作面積，已經推動了很多而且逐步有些成效，如果現在公糧再提高，會把過去的這些努力全部化為烏有，那又重新來過。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部裡面的考量，其實希望對於整體的稻農，甚至農業的產業是整體有效益的，在投入資源下是有正面的效益。"],["陳部長駿季：是、對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我順著接下來請問，其實臺灣有些米也還不錯啦，反倒未來我認為有些地方的米就不一定會繳交公糧，部長要不要舉一下，哪些地方的米沒有繳交公糧的？"],["陳部長駿季：不繳交公糧的像高雄的部分是147號米，那個米因為用集團產區的方式，後端拉品牌，相對的，它的契作價格也比現在的公糧價格還高，其實它就是一種典範，因為透過集團栽培的經營主體去跟農民做契作的時候，農民的收益有保障。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的意思是，其實應該鼓勵更多用這樣的方式，產生更多的好米，我們看到現在日本反倒是缺米的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也就是說，其實我們應該是努力讓臺灣產出更多好米，然後用更好的價格賣往國內及國外出去，這才是一個最好的方式，走入公糧的部分其實是最不得已的一個方式，如果持續走那樣的方式，反倒會影響到原來既有的這些好米，我認為農業部除了既有的公糧之外，應該要花更大的力氣在於好米的部分，怎麼樣讓他種出更多好米，鼓勵更多好米的產生，而不是反倒走逆向的循環。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這就是我們在推動「1集、2轉、3加3」政策，第一個是引導農民重視品質，第二個部分，即後面外銷的部分，我們也會做一些品牌行銷宣導提供他們支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個也請部裡面把規劃再送給我們，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，這個部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：一個月內，包括你們接下來未來一年、三年的規劃方向，我認為這個其實都滿重要的啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別是看到日本現在稻米的狀況有點供應量不太夠的時候，反倒是我們的稻米如果能夠有更好的稻米，其實有機會走向更多的市場。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，上個月我到日本的時候，就跟那邊的一些貿易商和通路已經談過了，他們大概明年1月會來，當然有很多農產品其中一個品項就是米的部分，我們想趁這個機會把我們優質的米能夠有機會銷到日本去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為以前日本米除了國內，甚至還銷到國外去，現在在它量不夠的狀況下，這個都是臺灣米的機會。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是我們的一個機會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果我們把品牌拉得更好、品質拉得更好，我們就有機會，我們在衝的是值而不是在衝量，我覺得這個是比較有意義的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，雜糧的部分其實也是很重要的，我們也希望未來這塊雜糧的部分，部裡面也持續加強來推動。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們在2轉的部分其實就有一些不種稻的獎勵，就是希望他們不種稻轉到雜糧，提高雜糧以後，我們的自給率就會提升，對我們糧食安全也會有確保，這個我想我們會繼續來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，就是雜糧，我們現在是需求大於供給。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在這樣狀況下，如果引導農民往這個方向，其實他的收益會來得更好，而不是去種了稻然後用公糧，這個部分反倒不見得是最好的選擇，所以我希望農業部持續的溝通、持續的……"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會再溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，再來我想把握一點時間請教，前鎮漁港其實是很重要的一個建設，但是我看了一下整個多功能水產品運銷中心的進度落後了四十一點多%，部長，為什麼落後這麼多？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分是國土署在執行，我們也會要求國土署在這個部分把過去落後的進度能夠趕上，因為這是大家所期待的，相對的，我們有一些部分，包括漁港深度碼頭的部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，那個都在進行當中。"],["陳部長駿季：對，都在做了，現在最重要就是一個運銷的加工中心，這個中心完了以後就能夠串接整個部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其他的進度大致上有的已經完成，有的還沒，就這一個落後的最多啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是、對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望，還是趕在明年、預定明年上半年要完成……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會再加強跟他們做相關的協調。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請部長再持續盯著啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我請教一下，接下來的營運跟招商的部分，現在有沒有找到潛在的、未來可能進來的廠商？"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以請漁業署？"],["賴委員瑞隆：請署長。"],["王代理署長正芳：跟委員報告，我們已經擬好一個招商文件，跟財政部溝通過，也看過了，這個禮拜我們會在臺北跟高雄辦理招商說明會，也要積極邀請潛在廠商來參與。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這個可能還是要持續的邀請，我講過很多次，如果你邀請到的是夠大的廠商進駐的話，其實相對是輕鬆的，如果你找到的是一個小的，它有可能隨時會有狀況，所以我希望讓國內大而有能力的廠商能夠有意願來來參與這樣的一個計畫。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員提醒，我也認為一個營運經營主體的選擇非常重要，選擇對的話，後續就會非常順利，如果選擇不對的時候，可能造成後續往不好的面向發展，這個部分，我們會特別來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為你選擇好的，光它自己可能就很在乎它的品牌了啦，不會輕易砸掉自己的招牌，所以它也會很認真，但是它要進來一定會經過很多的評估，包括它的投資能不能達到效益，所以我知道你已經有做了一些放寬，我也希望這是個長遠的計畫，強上加強，我希望一個好的地點、好的建築，之後也找到好的企業、廠商一起來合作，也希望把這個前鎮漁港─國內最大的遠洋漁港，把它的效益擴展到最大。"],["陳部長駿季：好，了解，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們期待看到他未來確實有築地市場、豐洲市場那樣的樣貌，能夠吸引更多國內外的遊客到那邊去做採購。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長，部長辛苦了。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（10時56分）"],["主席：好，繼續開會，現在請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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不好意思主席 我的這個幕不見了被認知 被滲透了嘛"},{"start":363.783,"end":378.128,"text":"剛委員指教我們應該要反制這樣子的一個假訊息的一個作為我會建議就是說把它也放進你們的教材當中"},{"start":379.787,"end":379.947,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":400.46,"end":426.201,"text":"交通部內政部經濟部農業部其實他為了當然所謂現在的政府資訊公開那麼他會有很多其實他當然原本的設立的意義跟目的並不是為了這個去洩露軍機或是軍事要塞但是在政府資訊公開的情況底下那麼我們發現9月5號有一個農業部底下所屬的農水署水利署的這個鏡頭因為"},{"start":428.283,"end":428.343,"text":"﹚林楚茵﹚"},{"start":448.785,"end":464.978,"text":"呃從這麼多個部會至少交通部內政部經濟部農業部再到地方政府有沒有全面的去清查在我們的重要的軍事要塞外頭有沒有類似這樣的監視器因為他的用意原本可能是為了交通"},{"start":465.538,"end":494.735,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":498.645,"end":505.232,"text":"向委員報告,首先我先就這個個案,這個個案除了國防部的回應之外,我們也聯繫了農業部的農水署"},{"start":510.757,"end":534.607,"text":"那他後面他們認為這個鏡頭他們沒有需要所以除了先遮遮蔽之外那後面是已經移除了這是第一個部分那第二個有關於全面清查部分因為我今天我後面的數據我下去跟委員報告但針對這個案子我們有下一個通令第一個就是這些基於公務部門他為了監控他的這些"},{"start":536.348,"end":536.568,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":556.621,"end":556.781,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":573.815,"end":575.016,"text":"提醒對方在這個密碼設定上面要符合安全需求以上報告"},{"start":594.188,"end":596.57,"text":"一二三四五六七八個八這種原來設定的就是原設定然後還沒有進行這種"},{"start":608.772,"end":617.339,"text":"我相信有一些數字可能會是機密性的問題那本席想要求的是說國防部能夠在一個時間內徹底的清查然後確認所有在軍事要塞或是營區附近的這些公部門的監視器也都是認證過不是來對準我們的營區門口或是沒有安全疑慮這樣可以嗎"},{"start":634.813,"end":634.994,"text":"林楚茵"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時36分）謝謝主席，主席，有請顧立雄部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["林委員楚茵：等一下詢答當中如果有相關業務的將官或是官員，就請你們自行上台陪同部長一起作答。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。我剛剛特別認真看了你們的業務報告，其中第6頁跟第7頁特別點到面對中共的認知作戰，所以國防部持續有包括防治假訊息、反制中共軍事威脅、提升媒體識讀能力、多元反制；第7頁也寫到本部跟國防院、學術界有合製所謂的媒體識讀的教學影片，那麼我們現在是不是就直接來實測一下，面對中共的認知作戰或是這些訊息的提供，我們在反制上面或者是軍事威脅上面，媒體識讀的能力方面，到底我們能夠讀出什麼來。這個其實昨天在同樣的委員會當中，我有詢問過蔡明彥局長，這個是中國的軍演，他們首度在YT上面直播，我們都知道YouTube上面，中國人是看不到的啦！他們除非要翻牆，也就是說，其實只有我們在這個自由民主的臺灣或是其他全球可以看得到。那麼我就想要就教部長或者是我們現在陪同的將官們，這樣的一個直播影片，當中國其實是看不到的時候，它所要傳遞的訊息是什麼？尤其是它是從中午12點13分開始，然後到19點19分，可是根據我們的了解，現在他們所宣布的時間、期程大概6點左右就結束了，那麼面對這種直播，它透露了什麼樣的訊息呢？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：其實我們有相當程度發現那個直播很多是預錄的畫面，並不是真的直播。"],["謝次長日升：委員好，我是情報次長，當天的這個直播，如同剛剛部長所說的，絕大部分都是預製好，而且有很多……"],["林委員楚茵：其實它有左右兩邊的畫面，在我們的鏡頭看得到的右手邊，它其實就是有一個像是網路宣傳影片，講共軍軍力有多麼英雄威武，然後聯合利劍，但它其實就是拍攝好的，你是指這個部分嗎？"],["謝次長日升：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好，另外呢？"],["顧部長立雄：直播的部分也……"],["林委員楚茵：直播的部分呢？"],["顧部長立雄：也有部分是預錄的。"],["謝次長日升：直播的內容裡面也有很多是預錄的。"],["顧部長立雄：直播的部分應該就我們去觀察，跟現場演習的部分狀況是不一樣的，看得出來，而且有影片發現是跟過去某一些影片其實是完全一樣的，所以看得出來有很大部分是預錄的，不是真正的直播。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那麼類似這樣的訊息，當然國防部不見得會把這樣的訊息公開給民眾知道，但是有沒有把你們的研判，包括在這一次之後，做一個必要的讓我們知道、讓軍中袍澤能夠知道？因為這個其實是有助於在化解認知作戰當中一個非常重要的，就像我們看到左手邊，我們都知道這一定是預錄的畫面，可是我們不知道的是，在右手邊這個所謂的直播網當中，它所拍攝的廈門到底是不是真的是廈門，然後廈門的對岸所看到的到底是哪裡？是金門嗎？還是其他的地方？像這樣的時候，比如說這是預錄的畫面，你就會覺得這是造假，這樣的訊息有沒有直接的在軍隊當中，讓我們國軍弟兄知道？那麼它有傳達出什麼樣的資訊，到底我們面對這樣的畫面是該恐懼、焦慮或是其實它就是一個紙老虎，或者是它就是一個虛假的假訊息，我們該怎麼樣來判讀，它所傳達的訊息是什麼？比如說我們現在講到的，我們還有跟學界合作進行所謂媒體的識讀，那這個我們到底識讀出什麼？因為他如果覺得這一次做了有效，他下一次會再做，但是如果你破解他，那麼至少下一次，我們就會用不一樣的心態來看這個直播。既然他會第一次在YouTube上面的直播，我認為下一次只要他再軍演，他會用同樣的方法來做。"],["謝次長日升：報告委員，很簡單的跟委員報告，這個其實很明顯的就是一個複合式灰色地帶的態樣。舉兩個簡單的例子，它所要傳遞出來的訊息裡面所講的重點，不外乎就是要告訴我們所收看的民眾一個因果關係，因為它認為我們做了什麼，它才會採取對應式的一個果。那回過頭來，其實不管我們做什麼，它早就已經想好它要做這件事情了，所以這個因果關係，在灰色地帶洗腦的這個類型裡面，我們把它歸納，這個就是欺騙。因為它用這樣子的手段去讓收視的民眾認為，如果臺灣不做這件事情，或者不管是哪一個國家，你不做這件事情，理論上，我就不會做這個軍演。但是我們要跟委員還有要跟社會大眾說，這個因果關係是完全錯誤的，這是第一個我們要特別強調的，在複合式的灰色地帶裡面，特別是像這樣的行為，其實是已經長時間在我們觀察、注意的類型裡面。謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：不好意思，主席，我的螢幕不見了，被認知作戰了？被滲透了嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：所以就剛剛委員指教的，跟委員報告，我們應該要反制這樣子的假訊息的作為。"],["林委員楚茵：對。我會建議把它也放進你們的教材當中，因為我想它本身所要傳達的這種所謂恫嚇或是認知戰的訊息，這當中的含意必須要傳達清楚。","另外，本席也非常關心，本席一直持續在追蹤，就是在9月6號的時候，媒體沃草所提供，在我們的營區周圍，事實上交通部、內政部、經濟部、農業部等等，現在為了所謂的政府資訊公開會有很多監視攝影機，當然它原本設立的意義跟目的並不是為了去洩漏軍機或是軍事要塞，但是在政府資訊公開的情況底下，我們發現9月5號有一個農業部底下所屬的農水署的鏡頭，在沒有關注的情況底下偏移而拍攝到了軍方營區的動態影片。","我必須要先說的是，國防部的回應非常的迅速、確實，也說立刻就做了遮蔽，但是我想要就教請問的是後續的部分，這麼多個部會，至少交通部、內政部、經濟部、農業部再到地方政府，有沒有全面的去清查，在我們重要的軍事要塞外頭有沒有類似這樣的監視器？它設置的用意原本可能是為了交通，也可能是為了農田灌溉、水利、清淤、防災等等的需求，既然有一支鏡頭發生這樣的狀況，不太可能靠媒體或者是本席去一個一個的追查。9月5號發生這樣的事情之後，針對這一支攝影鏡頭，國防部迅速給出了回應，但是我想請問部長，有沒有趁這個機會，好好的來檢視其他的鏡頭？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員好，我是陸軍司令部參謀長。向委員報告，首先我先就個案，這個個案除了國防部的回應之外，我們也聯繫了農業部的農水署，後面他們認為這個鏡頭他們沒有需要，所以除了先遮蔽之外，後面已經移除了，這是第一個部分。第二個，有關於全面清查的部分，後面的數據我會後跟委員報告，但針對這個案子，我們有下一個通令，第一個就是公務部門基於為了監控其作業是否正常，會依據相關的規範通知我們國軍包含保防部門並提出申請。這部分有兩個複式檢控機制，第一個就是我們要去確認監控螢幕所拍攝的區域，的確是基於它的作業需求，而且不能因年久鬆動而偏移到其他地方，這部分我們會藉由營區的巡管還有定時的電話通聯。比如說對方是什麼單位，我們每天有聯繫，請對方查看一下他的監視鏡頭是否正常，大概會這樣；再加上他們來巡檢的時候會知會營區，我們會再去跟他確認。最後一個就是，這些影像如果是基於公眾利益必須要公開，那沒有問題，但如果是不能公開的，我們會提醒對方，在密碼設定上要符合安全需求。以上報告。"],["顧部長立雄：也就是說它的密碼設定不能夠用那一種，類似這種……"],["林委員楚茵：1234567或是8個8這種。"],["顧部長立雄：這種原來設定的，就是原設定，然後它沒有進行這種……"],["林委員楚茵：沒有異動，然後太好破解？"],["顧部長立雄：就是類似懶人碼這種作法就對了。"],["林委員楚茵：好。我相信有一些數字可能會是機密性的問題，那本席想要求的是，國防部能夠在一個時間內澈底的清查，確認所有在軍事要塞或是營區附近的這些公部門的監視器也都是認證過，不是來對準我們的營區門口，或是沒有安全疑慮，這樣可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們來進行。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，部長、參謀長請回。","下一位委員詢答之前，我先宣告一件事情，目前有收到臨時提案2案，這兩案是本席提的，我歡迎跨黨派的委員大家都來連署，待會本委員會陳冠廷委員詢答結束後，我們再進行處理，處理完畢屆時休息5分鐘。","現在進行詢答的委員是洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M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Down。這個當然就是當Lesson大家就解釋成說就是要讓投資客學習"},{"start":221.751,"end":236.324,"text":"當然講重一點就是教訓那也就是像剛剛這個總裁所提到說你是不是有看到了什麼樣的訊息就是說現在台灣的情況是不是有接近到這個2000在這個1990年代的日本資產泡沫還有2007年到2008年美國的次代風暴的這種情況"},{"start":244.875,"end":268.628,"text":"所以我就說我要跟委員報告就是說我們到七月八月我們掌握到這個訊息的時候我們才馬上就說請那個銀行來討論一下就如何讓他所傾斜的這個房地產的資源要傾斜到那邊的我們看看要怎麼來就像報告上說的我們這個全體銀行不動產的貸款的總"},{"start":273.89,"end":295.905,"text":"這個比例高達37.5%,比起2009年10月的歷史高點37.9%已經相當的接近了。然後銀行信用資源向不動產部門傾斜的情況還更嚴重。所以你是看到這個情況,所以在第七波的這個選擇性信用管制的時候用重權來打炒房。"},{"start":296.758,"end":322.832,"text":"委員你剛剛講到這個的時候我想我也趁這個機會來解釋一下當時我用這個Lesson就是說我沒辦法剛剛委員就解釋替我解釋的非常好你說要給他們上一課事實上我就是當時這個Lesson我沒有就是說我要教訓他但是有這個效果有教訓的效果"},{"start":324.092,"end":325.533,"text":"但是有達到這個效果了啦?"},{"start":353.744,"end":358.29,"text":"我也是希望是這樣子但是我們也不是說真的是要教訓他啦"},{"start":359.454,"end":384.945,"text":"再請教一下總裁我看有很多委員有很關心就是說我們在九月份的時候你有第七波會不會在12月的時候會不會有這個第八波的這個選擇性信用管制那當然我認為會有一些指標那我想請教一下這個總裁的指標來決定說你看到的什麼樣的情況會有什麼樣的改善的情況或是什麼情況會更嚴重你覺得說要不要再進行下一波的這個信用管制"},{"start":387.542,"end":408.748,"text":"我覺得委員三個指標這三個指標我們可以參考防架、是否有修復、不動產、放款的集中度、不動產的貸款金額這些都是我們可以來觀察的一個指標那還有沒有什麼其他指標大體上大概是這樣子大體上是這樣子所以說就是看說這三個指標"},{"start":411.989,"end":434.034,"text":"有沒有下降來決定說是不是要進行第八波的這個行用管制?最主要的就中央銀行來看的話我們第一個就是說不動產的換款的集中度是有沒有下降這是我們比較那有沒有一個數字比如說現在37.5大概下降到什麼樣的一個程度你會覺得說比較安心這個是合理不合理我們再來大概到哪一個"},{"start":435.055,"end":435.976,"text":"因為現在目前齁誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒"},{"start":451.899,"end":462.129,"text":"對,他也計算在裡面。對啊,所以其實要下來好像有點困難。對,所以我們要密切觀察他。看他是不是嚴重不嚴重,這個是我們必須要去。我們也謝謝委員幫提醒我們這三個指標。不過賴總統是相當肯定,我認為。他在這個國慶的談話,他有特別提到說"},{"start":473.801,"end":475.203,"text":"總裁有沒有覺得心暖暖的?"},{"start":489.003,"end":513.353,"text":"我也非常感謝就是說院裡面跟中午給我們的支持這是我們的那現在就是說上次你來找我的時候我也提到就是說有一些這個重群下去之後當然有一些無辜受害者後來你們也是做了一些調整但是還是有一些情況發生就是說現在是新清安他們去貸款"},{"start":514.274,"end":519.393,"text":"貸款的這個陳述比預期的或是說比之前在你們這個信用管制之前在談的"},{"start":520.641,"end":545.811,"text":"本來談好了但是後來的代給他們的成數降低了或是說支配款要準備的成數也提高了這個有沒有就像說你們有這一個電話打過來這樣子抱怨反應的有沒有我想應該也會有不過我跟委員報告了所以我們這一次的協組措施把那些已經訂約的包括中古屋或是那個預售屋的"},{"start":548.632,"end":573.741,"text":"他一戶二戶的那個我們都有在排除條款裡面但是三戶以上的話我們就無能為力三戶以上有很多是那個剛買房子對那剛買房子所以我們協組措施所以我們協組措施裡面就有這樣的一個協組措施那還有就是說你如果說預售物你也是守候協組的措施出來之後這方面的抱怨有比較減少嗎就比較少了啦就比較少了"},{"start":575.602,"end":594.06,"text":"再請教一下總裁美國的聯準會降息但是台灣最近是升息然後總裁對他表示說貨幣政策會持續偏向緊縮短期內不會有降息的動作是不是?"},{"start":596.157,"end":611.012,"text":"我、我、我想呢第一個就是說利、利、貨幣政策的一個調整是整個的啊、我們的理事會共同來決定的不過我個人的看法呢就是說到目前為止雖然我們預測說我們明年會"},{"start":614.755,"end":643.564,"text":"通膨會降到2%以下但是我們還是要持續的去觀察它因為預測有些時候不是非常準確的都要每一個季每一個季去做調整所以到目前為止我覺得我們的貨幣政策在這個水準是合理的最後我再問一下總裁就是說根據114年你們的預算書你們的存款跟放款的平均利率"},{"start":644.584,"end":649.367,"text":"這個相較113年獎是比較低一點點那這個是不是講說我們的貨幣政策在明年會比較寬鬆呢沒有因為沒有我們那個放款是外幣的"},{"start":660.433,"end":660.593,"text":"朗誼的"},{"start":678.925,"end":688.649,"text":"一個是12年那時候所做的預算那一個是113年年初的所做的預算所以差沒有差多少11.12跟1.18沒有差多少換款的那個部分純粹是外幣外幣因為它確實是下來"},{"start":696.313,"end":713.819,"text":"我是希望說這個打草房不是只有這個央行在做當然央行是動作出來之後會聯動的會影響財政或是金管會他們相關的政策我是希望說這個三個部會能夠一起來做是是謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵謝謝謝謝謝謝總裁謝謝主席好謝謝昆城委員接著請顏寬恒委員備詢啊諮詢啊"},{"start":723.672,"end":728.462,"text":"再報告一下就是王世堅委員質詢完畢我要讓我們休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時34分）謝謝主席，我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好，總裁辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：哪裡，謝謝你關心。"],["李委員坤城：常常看到你就是會到各個委員的辦公室去做溝通、協調，這個相當好。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝你。"],["李委員坤城：不過你被評為B+總裁，其實我是為你打抱不平。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝你鼓勵。"],["李委員坤城：我認為你還是屬於A級的總裁。我舉兩點，第一個，今年3月在外界都無預警的情況之下，央行升息半碼，但那時候升息半碼是要抑制通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：那時總裁的說法是surprise，但決定合理，主要是為了抑制國內通膨預期心理，這是在3月份。","在6月份央行是升準不升息，總裁那時的說法就是，這次最主要是給市場訊息，此次重點在於房地產，不在於通膨。","光是這兩點，3月和6月份央行的決定，一個是抑制通膨，另外一個就是給市場訊息，開始要打炒房了。我認為央行都有洞燭機先。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：那請教一下，現在是10月份了，回過頭再來看3月份和6月份你的決定，你認為有沒有達到效果了？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果就通膨來講，我們的通膨確實是慢慢在下來。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的預測跟國際的預測大概都是這樣，那我們的通膨慢慢在下來。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：這是第一個。第二個，我們在6月份選擇性信用管制推出來，然後為什麼在9月份的時候再出去？6月份時對於房地產，我們那個時候所掌握的資訊不夠充分，所以力道就比較輕一點。我們的這個報告裡面有講到第2季房地產的貸放情況，裡面有說明。"],["李委員坤城：我有看。"],["楊總裁金龍：那個是6月份的資料，那6月份的資料要到什麼時候我們才掌握得到？我們要到8月份、9月份的時候才能拿得到，所以就是……有房子，然後要申請第一戶，還有第二戶的，人數增加得非常快、金額也增加得非常快，所以我們6月份的那一波是比較輕，那為什麼連續到9月份的時候我們再出手？是因為那個時候我們還沒有掌握到資訊，等掌握到的時候，認為情況比我們原先所想像的嚴重，所以才會有第七波，連續第七波的……"],["李委員坤城：我看第七波的選擇性信用管制，媒體的標題大部分就是，比如「央行五劑猛藥重拳打炒房」、楊金龍說要給投機客一個lesson（教訓），也藉這次機會告訴社會大眾，房市必須cool down。當然lesson大家就解釋成是要讓投資客學習，當然講重一點就是教訓。像剛剛總裁所提到的，你是不是看到了什麼樣的訊息，現在臺灣的情況是不是已接近像1990年代日本資產泡沫化、2007年至2008年美國次貸風暴的這種情況？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說，我跟委員報告，到7月、8月我們掌握到這個訊息的時候，馬上請銀行來討論一下，就如何讓傾斜到房地產的資源，我們看看要怎麼把它……"],["李委員坤城：就像報告上說的……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：我們全體銀行不動產的貸款總比例高達37.5%了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：比起2009年10月的歷史高點37.9%，已經相當接近了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，更嚴重。"],["李委員坤城：而銀行信用資源向不動產部門傾斜的情況還更嚴重。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：你是看到了這個情況……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以在第七波選擇性信用管制的時候，用重拳打炒房。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，你剛剛講到這個，我想我也趁機會解釋一下，當時我用這個lesson，就是說我沒辦法……剛剛委員就替我解釋得非常好，你說是要給他們上一課。事實上當時說這個lesson，我沒有說要教訓他，所以……"],["李委員坤城：但是有這個效果啊！有教訓的效果啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過就lesson，我就……"],["李委員坤城：所以lesson，這個含意大家可以去解讀，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！是啦！不過我那個時候……"],["李委員坤城：不過你用中文講教訓，那就很直白。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我……"],["李委員坤城：用lesson的話，你還可以講得比較和緩，給大家學習。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，給他一個啟示、給他上一課。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以事後我也請教我們同事，我就說我這個lesson，他們都說我要教訓、教訓，好像很兇的樣子，我覺得中央銀行應該不是那麼兇啦！"],["李委員坤城：但是有達到這個效果了啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我也是希望這樣子，但是我們也不是真的要教訓他啦！"],["李委員坤城：再請教總裁，我看很多委員也很關心，就是9月份的時候你有第七波信用管制，12月的時候，會不會有第八波選擇性信用管制？當然，我認為會有一些指標，請教一下，總裁用什麼指標來決定……就是你看到什麼情況、有什麼樣的改善情況，或是什麼情況更嚴重時，你認為要再進行下一波信用管制？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員這三個指標我們可以參考。"],["李委員坤城：喔！房價是否修正、不動產放款集中度及不動產的貸款金額。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這些都是我們可以觀察的指標。"],["李委員坤城：還有沒有什麼其他指標？"],["楊總裁金龍：大體上大概是這樣子。"],["李委員坤城：大體上是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以就是看這三個指標有沒有下降，決定是否要進行第八波信用管制？"],["楊總裁金龍：就中央銀行來看，最主要的，第一就是不動產放款集中度有沒有下降，這是我們比較……"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有一個數字，比如現在是37.5……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為……"],["李委員坤城：大概下降到什麼樣的程度，你會覺得比較安心？"],["楊總裁金龍：這我們要去study合理不合理，再來……"],["李委員坤城：大概到哪一個數字？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛也有委員講到，在目前都是滿水位的情況之下，要讓它一下馬上下來是不大容易，可能也要一段時間。"],["李委員坤城：因為新青安持續在貸款嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，因為新青安現在……"],["李委員坤城：新青安也計算在這裡面嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，也計算在裡面。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以要下來好像是有一點困難。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以我們要密切觀察看嚴重不嚴重，這是我們必須要做的，我也謝謝委員提醒我們這三個指標。"],["李委員坤城：不過我認為賴總統是相當肯定的，他在國慶談話時特別提到，要加快打炒房的效率、擴大租屋族的照顧、平衡換屋族的需求，實現居住正義的這條路會繼續走，得罪特定團體也在所不惜。總統講這番話，總裁有沒有覺得心暖暖的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我非常感謝院裡面跟總統府給我們的支持，這是我們……"],["李委員坤城：好，上次你來找我的時候，我也提到重拳下去之後，當然會有一些無辜受害者，後來你們也做了調整，但還是有一些情況發生，像現在新青安的貸款，貸款成數比預期低，或是在你們信用管制之前，本來都談好了，但後來貸款成數降低或是自備款成數提高，這部分有沒有人打電話跟你們抱怨、反映的，有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想應該會有啦！不過，跟委員報告，這一次我們的協處措施已經把那些訂約的，包括中古屋或預售屋，如果是一戶、二戶的，都有列在排除條款裡，但三戶以上，我們就無能為力，三戶以上……"],["李委員坤城：有很多是那種剛買房子的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，有剛買房子的，所以我們協處措施……"],["李委員坤城：就是在9月19號之前……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的協處措施就有這樣一個協助，還有如果是預售屋……"],["李委員坤城：你們的協處措施出來之後，這方面的抱怨有比較減少嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，比較少了，就比較少了啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，再請教總裁，美國聯準會降息，但臺灣最近是升息，總裁對外表示貨幣政策會持續偏向緊縮，短期內不會有降息的動作，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，貨幣政策的調整，是我們整個理事會共同決定，不過我個人的看法是，到目前為止，雖然我們預測明年通膨會降到2%以下，但我們還是要持續觀察，因為預測有些時候不是非常準確，所以每一季、每一季都要調整，到目前為止，我覺得我們的貨幣政策在這個水準是合宜的。"],["李委員坤城：最後再問一下總裁，根據114年的預算書，你們的存款跟放款平均利率相較113年是低了一點點，這是不是表示我們的貨幣政策在明年會比較寬鬆？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有，那個放款是外幣的，外幣是反映美國的降息，所以外幣的放款利率才會下來，至於本幣部分的1.2到1.18，差沒有多少，只是說一個是112年所做的預算，一個是113年年初的預算，所以差沒有多少，1.2跟1.18沒有差多少；放款的部分純粹是外幣，因為外幣確實是下來。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK，我希望打炒房不是只有央行在做，當然央行的動作出來之後，會連動影響到財政部或金管會的相關政策，我希望這三個部會能夠一起來做。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝總裁，謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝坤城委員。","接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。再報告一下：在王世堅委員質詢完畢後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065cc5e136c93cd3b53bc7d127954dabfa1a9373a247fb1bb1c9c8b0e28f4b914155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:24:47 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各位大家午安 早安我也不曉得什麼安我們請這個何部長請何部長"},{"start":18.733,"end":42.679,"text":"部長我們行政院公秘書長他們在行政院的經濟發展委員會裡面開會然後曾經在經濟發展委員會的顧問會議裡面提到就是說這個可以借盡各國薪資透明化的做法然後藉由勞動部去定義低薪勞工的這個界定"},{"start":44.019,"end":61.233,"text":"大概講的那段話我們看那個報導是這樣講的就是說當會後的記者會說針對薪資政策目前政府已經有最低工資法以及中小企業加薪抵稅等規範但對顧問來說這不足以解決所有的問題因此建議政府參考國外做法"},{"start":62.513,"end":78.64,"text":"行政院經發會顧問會議講到說要思考薪資透明度專法推動企業薪資透明度以及定義低薪勞工等秘書長說單純提高最低工資恐怕沒有辦法完全解決低薪勞工問題"},{"start":80.04,"end":92.152,"text":"最低工資雖然已經保障最底層的勞工但是每月比最低工資高新台幣一千元、兩千元的人算不算低薪這部分就必須要討論和研議因此勞動部將先討論這個族群"},{"start":96.856,"end":117.555,"text":"就是如何定義然後後續政府才有定義以後才可能有政策對應和支持但這一些都還要進行這個社會性的對話然後再提到這個下一次的經發會委員會討論請問他這個是第一次那現在第二次也開完了你們他開完以後你們有沒有定義出來委員是指第一次的定義嗎"},{"start":123.294,"end":134.659,"text":"對啊,他不是這樣講,我講那些我剛剛念的中文你都聽不懂嗎?怎麼叫低薪勞工的定義?比最低工資多一千元或兩千元算不算低薪?"},{"start":136.708,"end":154.617,"text":"因為這個是這樣子我們勞動部我們在最低工資這個部分當然先低薪的定義是很多部長你不要這樣子聰明如你不要在這裡故意拖時間閃閃躲躲然後就主席時間到了叫我下去我是不會下去喔我先在這裡說明喔我是不會下台我一定要問到出來喔你"},{"start":162.665,"end":185.203,"text":"行政院的經濟發展委員會已經責成勞動部要去定義低薪勞工的界定那人家新聞稿、新聞報導就說請問比最低工資多一千元、兩千元的人算不算低薪或是你們現在在八月人家經發會的顧問會議"},{"start":187.385,"end":213.97,"text":"所有產官學都交給你們要去定義出來你們現在定義出來的介於意義是什麼這麼簡單你為什麼還要這樣顧左右而言他呢委員不好意思因為我們那個因為是這樣我們關於最低薪資的定義我們大概是參考OECD薪資中位數的2 3這樣來定義那請問現在最低薪資的中位數是多少"},{"start":216.551,"end":225.042,"text":"4萬6的三分之二是多少?3萬1所以現在最低薪資在明年的1月1號是28590元那多1000元是29590元然後再多2000元是30590元"},{"start":233.332,"end":252.671,"text":"所以如果照你這樣講的你們界定出來比最低工資勞基法所訂的最低那個不是勞基法抱歉我們現在最低工資所公佈的28590多1000元或2000元的人算是低薪喔就是你們界定的低薪對不對好來我們看一下你們的"},{"start":256.472,"end":267.303,"text":"這個是今年9月底你們界定最低薪資什麼叫做低薪?你們自己勞發署開出來的求職"},{"start":269.062,"end":288.374,"text":"求職的月薪兩萬九千兩百六十一一個是就純粹兩萬九千兩百六十一另外一個是兩萬九千兩百六十一到三萬二幾乎都是在你界定的低薪的範疇裡面是你們勞發署看一下工作內容要做什麼你們勞發署勞動部帶頭開出這種低薪職缺然後今天這個"},{"start":297.401,"end":309.434,"text":"勞動部也界定這是低薪的缺然後今天立法院要你談的報告是如何有效提升國內薪資水準、落實保障政府機關內勞工的權益"},{"start":312.458,"end":325.492,"text":"你們政府機關內你們界定出低薪以後還開出兩萬九你們界定了低薪連政府都帶頭給低薪啊然後你來看你的報告你今天的業務報告的那個專題報告的書面第2頁"},{"start":331.434,"end":353.79,"text":"你們在講說你們一開頭講如果這個有效的保障機關單位內的勞工的權益然後提升薪資水準你們第二頁講說將勞務委外所運用的承攬或派遣也有勞基法可以適用所以我們定會督促各頁廠商遵守勞基法的履約管理和監督責任"},{"start":355.091,"end":379.51,"text":"然後呢本部一定令這個機關構裡面運用勞務承攬的參考原則一定要至少一定要保障這個在法律的規範裡面你們都知道三萬二以內都叫低薪的你們主動開出來的也是兩萬九然後你在這裡告訴我們立法委員說我一定會叫他們遵守這個勞基法答非所問好我跟你講明年對這個我們都會調到三萬二對這樣的人員"},{"start":383.857,"end":398.896,"text":"好,所以你們要全面,你要怎麼調?你的全面,你的預算裡面,你的勞務採購,你的這個承攬的經費都有調整嗎?你從兩萬...對啊,就是我們要承攬經費,我們給他多錢啊?"},{"start":402.182,"end":413.021,"text":"您們從什麼時候開始要準備這麼做?您的預算有編列進去嗎?有編了拜託委員支持最好是如此你們這個東西喔"},{"start":415.31,"end":433.463,"text":"我是打問號啦而且是走回頭路啦行政院在2018年5月18號就提出了十大政策提高薪資十大政策2018年然後就喊出了工部門主動要解決低薪的樓地板式新台幣3萬元"},{"start":435.604,"end":448.871,"text":"然後呢第一項政策就是你們認為公部門要帶頭解決嘛你們機關構裡面要先解決嘛所以你們具體的作為在2018年是提升低薪者總薪資到3萬元結果呢2024年還在開2萬9"},{"start":453.482,"end":459.784,"text":"現在我們說一套做一套啦然後呢新資未達三萬元的當時2018年就講未達三萬元的時候這個要逐漸漸進式提升然後"},{"start":469.878,"end":491.756,"text":"再看後面你們的那個勞務承攬的部分當時2018年是以加分去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪或均薪這個3萬當時是這樣子薪資水準啊這個達到3萬以上的投標廠商給予加分非強制的而是鼓勵的性質的而且這個薪資"},{"start":492.757,"end":517.999,"text":"是用全體員工的平均值去平均的也不是強迫每一個勞工都要3萬元以上所以現在你現在又在跟我們空中為大便給我們這樣子給我們講一個你要怎麼樣叫這些勞務承攬的人最低薪資都要3萬2你剛剛講了那麼隨便來你告訴我你的政策手段政策手段還有你的勞務採購"},{"start":521.055,"end":544.383,"text":"你要怎麼處理?勞務承攬?我們馬上去改這個標準可以嗎?啊怎麼改?怎麼改?馬上改啊啊怎麼改?改在哪裡啊?我們的標案的標規就是照這個規定標案的標規你要怎麼定?你是要講全數員工的均薪要三萬二以上?還是說每個個別員工的薪資都要三萬二以上?"},{"start":546.257,"end":548.9,"text":"我現在就問你喔 署長 我沒有要問你喔 我在問你 你保證你現在講的喔 在這裡要作為呈堂證供喔 在這裡呈供喔明年所有的勞務承攬 在招標須知、招標規定都要規定"},{"start":563.499,"end":579.61,"text":"原理每一個來承攬、要來做這個勞務承攬的公司每一個員工的薪資都要達到三萬兩千元以上的這個標準才有投標資格請問你是不是這樣子?你剛才說的是這樣騙我的喔?現在我問你你會跟我說是不是這樣子?"},{"start":587.043,"end":589.627,"text":"請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能"},{"start":605.748,"end":626.327,"text":"你現在回答我說你明年全部都要3萬2以上我剛才問你一句你告訴我你的招標資格一定要他的公司裡面每一個上班的員工都是3萬元來公部門要投標的這個員工每一個薪資都要實質是3萬2以上你剛剛講是這樣子喔是不是"},{"start":631.678,"end":651.006,"text":"是不是?我認為你最少問你說不出招標須知、投標資格必須要符合這一個是不是啦?主席他們都沒回答,時間我都不認,直到他回答為止是啊是啊是什麼?你可不可以再講一遍給我聽工作難易度應該是會以平均總值"},{"start":656.291,"end":680.767,"text":"平均總薪資平均總薪資我就知道不要來這一套我剛剛講2018年就講你還沒講平均總薪資我就跟你講了當時在勞務承攬就是用加分的去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪均薪三萬平均總薪資三萬不是個別勞工"},{"start":682.288,"end":695.191,"text":"所以你在這裡剛剛才說到大聲現在叫回去啊不是個別每一個都3萬2那你剛才幹嘛講得那麼快為什麼剛才吹牛講大話講得這麼快你剛才回答我那一段再放出來再看一下你幹嘛講大話在這裡欺騙立委要不是我戳破你吹牛的氣球"},{"start":710.287,"end":717.214,"text":"你現在就講退縮回去了你就是這樣子對立委的你藐視立法院是你的習慣你對立委下指導期也是你的習慣啦秘書長、副秘書長當久了你指揮我們總召我們總召再來指揮我們黨團的立委你也去問我們這裡的立委很好去問的"},{"start":735.42,"end":742.869,"text":"好 我們回到言歸正傳所以你這邊講3萬2以下都是低薪你自己公部門開這種薪水"},{"start":745.033,"end":768.604,"text":"這是確實需要檢討那委員因為當年是2018年那其實我現在講的是2020年這是9月25你們開出來還是這個薪水我要跟您澄清就是剛剛我講的OECD的平均薪資的中位數的三分之二這個定義是剛剛才我跟你講我剛才都沒有說我講這些都是你講的委員我問你答的"},{"start":769.404,"end":781.577,"text":"我說什麼你們界定因為行政院經發會的顧問會議要求你們界定什麼叫低薪那要到今天下午才會定案的事情那你剛才在回答我是隨便現在有要公佈嗎不是,我們準備這麼跟行政院報告我們就告訴你嘛這一個標準在過去從來沒有定義過"},{"start":793.068,"end":820.626,"text":"對阿,人家在兩個月前就責成你要去定義了所以我才問你阿我監督政府就是要問你這個,要不然你在這裡在幹嘛的我誠實跟你們報告阿,是是對,所以我問你,你們低薪定義這樣子而政府現在開帶頭帶頭給的薪資就是兩萬九,就是帶頭給低薪所以我們現在要來檢討,那麼也編在一百一十四年度的預算拜託委員支持"},{"start":821.752,"end":825.376,"text":"啊我就講說你的檢討的並不是真實的檢討沒關係啦我現在再說兩句我們政府很早就是也是包括2018年吼我們的總統任內就喊出零派遣"},{"start":836.052,"end":850.217,"text":"那因為零派遣所以所有勞務承攬的人數都變成一直成長根據人事總處成長的統計行政院以及所屬機關勞務承攬派助人數統計從2018年107年到112年這個去年年底第4季為主"},{"start":860.633,"end":869.476,"text":"6年內成長幅度平均整個行政院及所屬機關成長幅度是19.3%但是勞動部及所屬成長高達47%勞動部及所屬在2018年第4季是1833人到112年的第4季是2696人"},{"start":886.363,"end":894.308,"text":"人家總的行政院機關內成長幅度19.3%你們成長幅度是47.08%而且而且你們這個勞務承攬計畫的員工多數低薪一族所以你們這麼講說你們要改進你們人數這麼多你要怎麼改進"},{"start":910.852,"end":914.143,"text":"你說要落實保障政府機關內的勞工的權益你們是帶頭給低薪啦"},{"start":919.602,"end":945.578,"text":"保定光是你們貴部跟你們的機關所屬就開出這樣的勞務承攬缺而且還是最多的還是在你們勞發署你們叫人家這個工作性質要審查聘僱外國人申請案這樣的薪資要多少才合理工作地點還要到這個中華路一段39號中正區"},{"start":949.471,"end":955.715,"text":"29261元扣掉勞健保10領薪資28122我們可以理解這個是勞務採購你就付給這個廠商是價金你剛剛講說你明年要改善但是呢你"},{"start":972.782,"end":1000.803,"text":"要去修正這個強化保障勞務承攬勞工的權益但是呢回到勞發署分署和各就業服務中心或就業服務站你們勞務承攬採購的價金最大宗還是這個勞務薪資啊你們的預算成長率是多少來預算成長率是多少你們就勞發署裡面的就業服務站和中心勞務承攬採購的價金預算成長率是多少"},{"start":1001.994,"end":1010.7,"text":"蘇菲委員,是不是十幾分?好,沒關係,我最後一題,我其他還不問了3%以上3%?你從2萬9要跳到3萬2是幾%?你說你們有編列預算要幫人家加薪"},{"start":1021.587,"end":1024.011,"text":"你預算成長率3%你知道你們現在開出來的職缺兩萬九要給人家加三千元到三萬二三千元這是10%以上欸"},{"start":1034.958,"end":1053.365,"text":"委員,我是不是可以跟委員報告一下?我們目前的勞務承攬的人員其實他是有四個級別那剛剛委員講的是最低的那一級就是業務佐理員兩萬九我們其實其他三級目前的薪資都超過三萬二以上甚至有到三萬八"},{"start":1054.005,"end":1064.327,"text":"所以他們不用加薪嗎?他們不用加薪?公務人員都要加薪的?你的就業服務站、就業服務中心、你的勞發署裡面的這些勞動、勞務承攬的業務人員,他們通通不用加薪嗎?把所有的3%的Quota都用來最低一級嗎?有可能嗎?"},{"start":1075.47,"end":1099.904,"text":"跟委員報告都加薪,現在只是委員在關心他們都加3%,都加3%啦所以最低一級也是加3%啦但是因為最低那一級我們在明年我們準備要整個都提升一級那加了之後明年的預算不是所有其他都類似像這個加級就是說它的佔比其實是10%我們在預算裡面是反映這個部分"},{"start":1100.632,"end":1117.751,"text":"你現在不要講這麼多你就告訴我說你在未來勞務承攬的招標須知、招標規範要怎麼具體去規範這樣子就好了招標資格對,我們會具體規範就是要以這樣的薪資標準去禁用我們所有的承攬人員"},{"start":1118.464,"end":1147.055,"text":"所以今天在這裡主秀他這個報告我們都聽得下去啦他這個在裡面講的是說我們這些委外的勞務就會叫他們遵守法律現在法律是兩萬八千五百九十就夠了所以他根本沒有任何的政治承諾在這裡面欸完全沒有欸他講青年我還有一部分沒有講青年就業他講這個是什麼內容這裡是高空打高空講一講蓄以為一立法院大家就這樣子就結束了"},{"start":1148.255,"end":1161.689,"text":"因為時間的關係啦,所以那個部長或者是署長是不是會後再跟署分委員做一個報告,好不好?他會後哪有來報告,叫部長本人來報告嗎?他有來報告,不要啦,再多排幾次我再繼續問啦先這樣子 因為時間的關係啦好,那我們現在先休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時24分）主席、各位，大家早安。請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，行政院龔秘書長在行政院的經濟發展委員會裡面開會時，曾經在經濟發展委員會的顧問會議裡面提到，可以借鏡各國薪資透明化的作法，藉由勞動部去定義低薪勞工的界定。他講的那段話，我們看那個報導是這樣講的，他在會後記者會說，針對薪資政策，目前政府已經有最低工資法以及中小企業加薪抵稅等規範，但對顧問來說，這不足以解決所有的問題，因此建議政府參考國外作法。所以行政院經發會的顧問會議裡面有講到，要思考薪資透明度專法、推動企業薪資透明度，以及定義低薪勞工等。秘書長說，單純提高最低工資，恐怕沒有辦法完全解決低薪勞工問題，最低工資雖然已經保障最底層的勞工，但是每月比最低工資高新臺幣1,000元、2,000元的人算不算低薪？這部分就必須要討論和研議。因此，勞動部將先討論這個族群要如何定義，有定義以後，政府才可能有政策對應和支持，但這一些都還要進行社會性的對話，然後再提到下一次的經發會委員會討論。請問，它這個是第一次，現在第二次也開完了，它開完以後，你們有沒有定義出來？"],["何部長佩珊：委員是指低薪的定義嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，他不是就這樣講，我剛剛唸的中文你都聽不懂嗎？什麼叫低薪勞工的定義？比最低工資多1,000元或2,000元算不算低薪？"],["何部長佩珊：是這樣子，勞動部在最低工資這個部分，當然低薪的定義是很多……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你不要這樣子，聰明如你，不要在這裡故意拖時間，閃閃躲躲，然後主席時間到了就叫我下去，我是不會下去喔！我先在這裡聲明，我是不會下臺！我一定要問出來。行政院的經濟發展委員會已經責成勞動部要去定義低薪勞工的界定，新聞報導就說，請問比最低工資多1,000元、2,000元的人算不算低薪？或是在8月經發會的顧問會議裡，所有產官學都交給你們要去定義出來，請問你們定義出來的界定意義是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您報告好嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：這麼簡單，你為什麼還要這樣顧左右而言他呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，不好意思，關於最低薪資的定義，我們大概是參考OECD薪資中位數的三分之二，用這樣來定義。"],["林委員淑芬：請問現在最低薪資的中位數是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：四萬六。"],["林委員淑芬：四萬六的三分之二是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：三萬一。"],["林委員淑芬：所以現在的最低薪資在明年1月1日是2萬8,590元，那多1,000元是2萬9,590元，然後多2,000是3萬590元。如果照你這樣講，比最低工資所公布的2萬8,590元多1,000元或2,000元的人，就算是你們界定的低薪了，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：可以這麼講。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我們看一下。這個是今年9月底你們界定的最低薪資，什麼叫做低薪？你們勞發署開出來的求職條件，月薪2萬9,261元，一個是就純粹2萬9,261元，另外一個是2萬9,261元到3萬2,000元，幾乎都在你界定的低薪範疇裡面，這是你們勞發署開出來的。我們看一下工作內容要做什麼，你們勞發署、勞動部帶頭開出這種低薪職缺，今天勞動部也界定這是低薪的缺，然後今天立法院要你談的報告是「如何有效提升國內薪資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」，你們界定出低薪以後，政府機關還開出兩萬九這種你們界定的低薪，連政府都帶頭給低薪啊！然後你來看你今天專題報告的書面第二頁，你們一開頭講，如何有效的保障機關單位內勞工的權益，提升低薪資水準，你們第二頁說，將勞務委外，所運用的承攬或派遣勞工也有勞基法可以適用，所以我們一定會督促廠商遵守勞基法的履約管理和監督責任。本部已訂定「政府機關（構）運用承攬參考原則」，至少一定要保障在法律的規範裡面。你們都知道三萬二以內都叫低薪了，你們主動開出來的也是兩萬九，然後你在這裡告訴我們立法委員說，我一定會叫他們遵守勞基法。答非所問！我跟你講……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，明年對這樣的人員，我們都會調到三萬二。"],["林委員淑芬：好，所以你們要全面，你要怎麼調？你的預算裡面、你的勞務採購、你的承攬的經費都有調整嗎？你從兩萬……"],["何部長佩珊：對啊，就是我們用承攬經費，我們給他多錢。"],["林委員淑芬：你們從什麼時候開始要準備這麼做？你的預算有編列進去嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有編了，拜託委員支持。"],["林委員淑芬：最好是如此，你們這個東西我是打問號啦！而且是走回頭路，行政院在2018年5月18日就提出了十大政策提高薪資，然後就喊出了公部門要主動解決低薪，樓地板是新臺幣3萬元，你們認為公部門要帶頭解決，你們機關構裡面要先解決，所以你們在2018年具體的作為是提升低薪者總薪資到3萬元。結果2024年還在開2萬9，所以你們現在都說一套做一套，2018年就講薪資未達3萬元要漸進式提升。","再看後面你們勞務承攬的部分，2018年是以加分去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪或均薪3萬，當時是這樣子。薪資水準達到3萬以上的投標廠商給予加分，非強制而是鼓勵性質，而且薪資是用全體員工的平均值，也不是強迫每一個勞工都要3萬元以上，所以你現在又在空中畫大餅給我們，要怎麼樣叫這些勞務承攬的人最低薪資都要3萬2？你剛剛講的那麼隨便。"],["何部長佩珊：我們已經編在114年度的預算裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我，你的政策手段，還有你的勞務採購，要怎麼處理？勞務承攬……"],["何部長佩珊：我們馬上去改這個標準，可以嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼改？"],["何部長佩珊：馬上改。"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼改？改在哪裡？標案的標規，你要怎麼定？你是講全數員工的均薪要3萬2以上，還是每個員工個別的薪資都要3萬2以上？我現在就問你，署長，我沒有要問你，我在問你們部長。你現在在這裡講的要作為呈堂證供，在這裡承諾明年所有的勞務承攬在招標須知、招標規定都要規定，研擬每一個勞務承攬公司的每一個員工薪資都要達到3萬2,000元以上的標準，才有投標資格，請問是不是這樣？你剛才說的是騙我們的，現在我問你，你來跟我們說，是不是這樣？你不要出一張嘴，輕諾者則寡信，在這裡跟立委虛與委蛇、糊弄一下，然後講話不算數，2018年也是這樣講，2018年說要3萬以上，現在、2024年還在開2萬9的職缺。你現在回答我，明年全部都要3萬2以上。針對我剛才問你那句，你跟我說，你的招標資格一定要他的公司裡面每一個上班的員工都是3萬元以上，要來公部門投標的，每一個員工薪資都要實質是3萬2以上，你剛剛講的是這樣，是不是？我在這裡詳細問你，你答不出來嗎？招標須知、投標資格都必須要符合這個，是不是？主席，他都沒有回答，時間我都不認，直到他回答為止。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊、是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：是什麼？你可不可以再講一遍給我聽？"],["何部長佩珊：平均總薪資都會達三分之二……"],["林委員淑芬：平均總薪資，我就知道，不要來這一套。我剛剛講2018年就講，你還沒講平均總薪資，我就跟你講了，當時在勞務承攬，就是用加分去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪、均薪3萬，平均總薪資3萬，不是個別勞工，所以你剛才在這裡說得那麼大聲，現在縮回去了，不是個別、每一個都3萬2！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，能不能拜託就是說……因為也是要給我們的業務單位一些空間。"],["林委員淑芬：你剛才幹嘛講得那麼快？為什麼剛才吹牛、講大話，講得這麼快？你剛才回答我那一段再放出來看一下，你幹嘛講大話，在這裡欺騙立委？要不是我戳破你吹牛的氣球，你現在又想退縮回去了。"],["何部長佩珊：委員言重了！"],["林委員淑芬：你就是這樣對立委的。"],["何部長佩珊：我剛才並沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：藐視立法院是你的習慣，對立委下指導棋也是你的習慣，副秘書長當久了，你指揮我們總召，我們總召再來指揮我們黨團的立委。你以為我們這些立委很好欺負。"],["何部長佩珊：委員真的言重了，我不敢……"],["林委員淑芬：好，我們言歸正傳。你在這邊講3萬2以下都是低薪，公部門自己卻開這種薪水。"],["何部長佩珊：這是確實需要檢討。因為當年是2018年，其實整個物價在……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講的是2024年，這是9月25號，你們開出來還是這個薪水。"],["何部長佩珊：我要跟您澄清。剛剛我講OECD平均薪資中位數的三分之二，這個定義是剛剛才討論出來的。之前……"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你講，我剛才都沒有說，我講這些都是你講的，是我問你答的。因為行政院經發會的顧問會議要求你們界定什麼叫低薪。"],["何部長佩珊：那是要到今天下午才會定案的事情。因為你問了，我……"],["林委員淑芬：你剛才在回答我，是隨便跟我說說的？"],["何部長佩珊：不是！我們準備這麼跟行政院報告……"],["林委員淑芬：對。"],["何部長佩珊：我就先告訴你。"],["林委員淑芬：對，3萬2啊！"],["何部長佩珊：這個標準在過去從來沒有定義過，在2018年沒有這樣的數字……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！人家一個月前就責成你要去定義了，所以我才問你。我監督政府就是要問你這個，要不然你來這裡是要幹嘛的？"],["何部長佩珊：我誠實跟您報告。"],["林委員淑芬：對，所以我問你，你們低薪定義是這樣，而政府現在帶頭給的薪資就是2萬9，就是帶頭給低薪。"],["何部長佩珊：所以我們現在要來檢討，也編在114年度的預算，拜託委員支持。"],["林委員淑芬：我就說你的檢討並不是真實的檢討，沒關係！我現在再回頭說，政府早在2018年我們的總統任內就喊出零派遣，因為零派遣，所以所有勞務承攬的人數都變成一直成長。根據人事總處的行政院以及所屬機關勞務承攬派駐人數統計，從107年到112年，即去年年底第4季為止，6年內整個行政院及所屬機關平均成長幅度是19.3%，但是勞動部及所屬成長高達47%，勞動部及其所屬在2018年第4季是1,833人，到112年第4季是2,696人，行政院機關內成長幅度19.3%，你們的成長幅度是47.08%，而且你們勞務承攬計畫的員工多屬低薪一族。你在這邊說你們要改進，你們的人數卻這麼多，要怎麼改進？你說要落實保障政府機關內勞工的權益，你們卻是帶頭給低薪。部長，光是貴部跟你們的所屬機關就開出這樣的勞務承攬缺，而且最多的還是在你們勞發署。你們叫人家的工作性質是要審查聘僱外國人申請案，這樣的薪資要多少才合理？工作地點還要到中正區中華路一段39號，2萬9,261元扣掉勞健保，實領薪資2萬8,122，我們可以理解這個是勞務採購，你就付給廠商價金。你剛剛說明年要改善，要修正、強化保障勞務承攬勞工的權益，但是回到勞發署分署和各就業服務中心或就業服務站，你們勞務承攬採購的價金最大宗還是勞務薪資，而你們的預算成長率是多少？你們就勞發署裡面的就業服務站和中心，勞務承攬採購的價金預算成長率是多少？"],["主席：淑芬委員，是不是時間的關係……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，最後一題，其他我不問了。"],["何部長佩珊：3%以上。"],["林委員淑芬：3%？你從2萬9要跳到3萬2，是多少百分比？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我請署長來回答，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：你說你們有編列預算要幫人家加薪，預算成長率3%，你知道你們現在開出來的職缺是2萬9，要給人家加3,000元到3萬2，加3,000元，這是10%以上耶！"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，我是不是可以跟委員報告一下？因為有點誤解。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你說。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們目前勞務承攬的人員其實是有四個級別，那剛剛委員講的是最低的那一級，就是業務佐理員2萬9，其實其他三級目前的薪資都超過3萬2以上，甚至有到3萬8，所以那個沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：他們不用加薪嗎？他們不用加薪，公務人員都要加薪了！"],["蔡署長孟良：不是，那個是比照加薪，跟委員報告，那個是比照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app裡面當作廠長在瀏覽或是需要協助的時候他們可以用的工具目前有沒有掌握到這個數據"},{"start":107.453,"end":117.702,"text":"68萬人了有加68萬6684的好友數了是是對目前我們也是有瞭解到真的有68萬6684人幾乎85%的移工都加入了"},{"start":122.046,"end":136.34,"text":"我們如果是有100萬左右的話當然很希望才兩個多禮拜的時間就有到這麼好的成績期待會有更完整的這些人員來參與不知道在座各位包括部長、署長有參加嗎?"},{"start":138.882,"end":164.054,"text":"有,有,市長有,他每天都在看這樣才能夠實際掌握到他的動態而且如果真的需要協助或怎麼樣的話可以在第一時間就發動協助的部分當然從中央、部裡面、署裡面還有地方也期待他們共同的來針對移工就醫的部分可以有更完整的一些配套措施"},{"start":165.554,"end":192.075,"text":"這是很感謝的部分那黑戶寶寶其實目前我們知道他們還是很需要大家共同來照顧不管他的狀況是如何那我們也知道財源還是一個問題啦其實金額不是很多可是對於這些照顧還是畢竟需要一些財力來能夠支持所以包括黑戶寶寶還有失聯移工的醫療呆帳"},{"start":193.716,"end":215.478,"text":"因為我在醫療單位了解的過程裡面我們的部立醫院基本上都是由他們在負責處理這些不管是失聯移工或者是黑戶寶寶的醫療對他們來講也是一個負擔所以這部分有沒有相關的演繹可以讓我們了解需不需要跨部會的協助"},{"start":216.539,"end":227.512,"text":"有,其實委員在之前行政院有召開跨部會的會議在陳建仁院長的時代那麼當然衛福部也希望我們勞動部這邊"},{"start":232.357,"end":259.013,"text":"因為這是這樣我們這個幾乎都是私聯的移工產生的醫療費用啦包括他的可能生育或是各方面那這方面我們當然會不會我們有跨部會的討論這個要怎麼去補貼醫院在這部分的費用的承擔因為現在都是醫院他被迫要"},{"start":259.853,"end":262.856,"text":"希望很快會有結果,不然的話對這個醫院來講當然是一個很大的負擔"},{"start":275.291,"end":297.599,"text":"公務預算嗎因為這個會牽扯到下一個問題就是那未來我們有沒有辦法有效的去強化外國仲介的課則我記得之前我們有討論這個議題尤其跟印度簽了MOU以後現在進入到實質討論的話那未來對於這個外國仲介是不是我們也希望把相關的需求"},{"start":298.879,"end":321.746,"text":"連帶了納進來,包括遣還費的負擔、收容費的負擔還有醫療費用的負擔是,我們對失聯移工、對醫療費用我們現在正在試圖跟來源國協商我們在每一個來源國的雙邊會議上我們都有提出這樣的議題就是你所產生的失聯移工的這樣子的醫療費用我們現在試圖往這個方向來處理這樣子"},{"start":324.147,"end":351.299,"text":"好,那如果有什麼結果或什麼那個成效的話是,我們跟委員拿來提供並回報是好,謝謝那再過來就要請教薪資提升的政策還有壯高齡勞工權益的問題因為剛好今天今天行政院的這個經發會也在討論一些改善低薪如果能夠讓所有的青年族群能夠得到有效的改善"},{"start":353.099,"end":376.988,"text":"另外就是針對於這些教育部也相折之下要研議薪資透明還有企業內部薪資的結構等等的問題請教一下當我們努力的在提升這個最低工資還有最低的這個小時工資的同時其實我們也很關心中介的我們這些勞動朋友"},{"start":378.268,"end":406.478,"text":"目前還有沒有什麼樣的政策或者是有哪一些相對有效的方案讓他們已經在這個職場裡面有一個成熟的環境可是他看著下面的這些新進的同仁好像工資越來越倍進跟他同樣的當然還是有差距可是呢他的感受應該是會不太一樣我是不知道因為你身為這個我們勞動朋友的這個最高主管"},{"start":407.498,"end":421.101,"text":"的這個相關人員有沒有同步的去設想這些中階勞工在這方面有未來哪一些好的政策或者是相關的政策配套可以協助這一部分的我們的勞動朋友們"},{"start":421.57,"end":446.272,"text":"我們最新的這樣子勞動部這邊我們就是主動我在報告裡面有提就是我們跟金管會合作我們在上市櫃公司的ESG裡面他們的報告書裡面我們要求揭露非主管職的薪資的狀況那麼我們希望透過這種揭露讓大家尤其是有能力支付的上市櫃公司先來啦"},{"start":446.752,"end":461.948,"text":"他們那個能夠讓他們提升這個他們的所有的大概最低工資以上的以上的這樣的人員的薪水我們是希望目前用這樣子薪資透明化的方式來處理這樣子"},{"start":464.49,"end":491.027,"text":"對那這樣的話也希望能夠帶動對就是還有包括就是政府我們今年提供這是提高的軍公教調薪嘛其實軍公教調薪對最低工資以上的勞工朋友的那個薪資提升會有示範效果企業會普遍加薪你比像台書企業他就加了4%我會說比較有能力的企業他就會跟進這樣子所以我們也是希望能夠呼籲企業在這方面要多善待"},{"start":492.202,"end":516.779,"text":"自己的勞工其次就是包括我們立院也很幫忙中小企業條例加薪抵稅這也是一個非常好的修法今年也通過了我們是不是看這樣的政策效果這樣的實行如何我們期待從各方面都可以來努力讓所有同仁都有機會得到這邊的好處"},{"start":518.48,"end":534.281,"text":"再過來想要請教就是這個中高齡工作保障從這個媒體我們最近也發現因為數位化進行碳排的這些轉型導致在之前相對資深的員工中高齡的工作權"},{"start":535.422,"end":555.311,"text":"受到的影響那這一部分有沒有更有效的行政救濟措施或者是未來如何預作安排我們知道每一個公司可能都會面臨同樣的問題的時候那如何能夠有機會去預作相關的安排來減少這個事件或是類似的情形再度發生"},{"start":556.906,"end":579.705,"text":"委員我們當然在這個法制面上其實現在中高齡專法對你以年齡為名的之前或者是那個我們是會罰款的所以像這個個案他就是用中高齡法去罰他他被罰了60萬這個公司所以其實是有法律政策工具那當然您講的應該是預防端那預防端"},{"start":582.347,"end":606.445,"text":"確實這個包括淨零碳排、包括數位轉型這都是勞工朋友面臨的挑戰那我們在這方面也是廣泛的就是包括我們對就業訓練我們也是不停的投注資源在做各種補助然後也協助勞工朋友在這方面做技能的提升的自我訓練跟我們協助他這樣子我們也都有補助的很多"},{"start":607.866,"end":627.976,"text":"對我們希望勞動朋友知道自己的權益那同時也針對於這些公司也能夠進行有效的勸導也好或者是必要的處罰也好我想很多企業可能還不知道你如果用年齡歧視來之前的話是會被罰的這個我們來加強宣導好不好是好那最後有關於這個退休後"},{"start":628.396,"end":646.67,"text":"重返原聘單位的鼓勵制度這一部分其實媒體真的討論非常非常的多所以如何能夠讓借領退休的這些同仁們他要原聘也好或者是要退休以後就是續聘或者是退休以後再聘"},{"start":647.971,"end":673.863,"text":"引發很多很多的討論我相信這一批退休早一定會有很多的事謝謝委員的修法勞基法54條修正以後這部分真的引起的社會的這樣的討論是非常多這也是一個好事因為大家都開始重視那很多想覺得自己還有工作能力的勞工朋友也會開始思考那我要不要跟公司來討論這件事所以當然會引起一些討論那麼我們也在嘗試從這些"},{"start":677.484,"end":694.69,"text":"各案的處理中然後來看看我們有什麼更好的方法來推動這個修法的落實好,我們很期待透過更多的討論以後讓這樣的美意可以真的讓所有的高齡者即使退休以後還可以充滿智障是是是,謝謝委員謝謝王建旭委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時13分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。謝謝你今天早上相關的說明，我們還是針對今天的主題來跟部長做一些討論。一開始還是針對黑戶寶寶，當然人數不多，可是對於我們來講，我們認為這還是一個要很關心的議題。在討論這個之前，還是要先肯定一下勞動力發展署目前所做的努力，針對這些移工友善就醫的部分做了很好的一個地圖專區LINE@……"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們最近開通的，10月1號開通。"],["王委員正旭：是，10月1號開始啟用，所以真的很用心。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝，也謝謝委員提醒，是委員提醒我們，我們馬上來執行。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝，真的那麼快速的就可以來回應，而且我們知道，早上部長有提到目前的移工人數約是80萬，如果再加上沒有掌握到的，可能有將近百萬，不知道從10月1號到現在有多少人加入到這個LINE@裡面，當作常常在瀏覽或者是需要協助的時候他們可以用的工具？目前有沒有掌握到這個數據？"],["何部長佩珊：加入LINE@的有68萬人了。"],["王委員正旭：68萬。"],["何部長佩珊：有68萬6,684的好友數了，是相當大喔。"],["王委員正旭：是，目前我們也是有了解到真的有68萬6,684人……"],["何部長佩珊：幾乎85%的移工都加入了。"],["王委員正旭：如果是有100萬左右的話，當然很希望啦，才兩個多禮拜的時間就有到這麼好的成績，期待可以有更完整的這些人員來參與。不知道在座各位，包括部長、署長，有參加嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：有，我有加。"],["何部長佩珊：署長有加入，他每天都在看。"],["王委員正旭：這樣才能夠實際掌握到它的動態，而且如果真的有需要協助或怎麼樣的話，可以在第一時間就發動協助的部分，當然也從中央的部裡面、署裡面，還有地方，也期待他們共同的來針對我們移工就醫的部分可以有更完整的一些配套措施，這是很感謝的部分。","有關黑戶寶寶，目前我們知道他們還是很需要大家共同來照顧，不管他的狀況是如何，我們也知道財源是一個問題，即使金額不是很多，可是這些照顧畢竟還是需要有一些財力才能夠支持，所以包括黑戶寶寶及失聯移工的醫療呆帳，因為在對醫療單位詢問瞭解的過程裡面發現，基本上都事由部立醫院他們在負責處理這些不管是失聯移工或者是黑戶寶寶的醫療，對他們來講也是一個負擔……"],["何部長佩珊：是，我瞭解。"],["王委員正旭：所以這部分有沒有相關的研議可以讓我們瞭解？需不需要跨部會的協助？"],["何部長佩珊：有，委員，之前行政院有召開跨部會的會議，在陳建仁院長的時代，當然衛福部也希望我們勞動部這邊協助，因為是這樣的，這個幾乎都是失聯移工而產生的醫療費用，包括他的生育或是各方面，這方面我們當然跟衛福部有跨部會討論要怎麼去補貼醫院在這部分費用的承擔，因為現在都是醫院被迫要買單這樣的醫療費用，金額還不少，其實越累積越多，這個我們正在討論當中。"],["王委員正旭：希望很快會有結果，不然的話，這個對醫院來講還是一個很大的負擔。因為這個會牽扯到下一個問題，就是未來我們有沒有辦法有效的去強化外國仲介的課責？我記得之前我們有討論過這個議題，尤其跟印度簽了MOU以後，現在進入到實質討論的話，未來對於外國仲介，我們也希望把相關的需求連帶的納進來，包括遣返費的負擔、收容費的負擔，還有醫療費用的負擔。"],["何部長佩珊：是，對於失聯移工的醫療費用，我們現在正在試圖跟來源國協商，我們在每一個來源國的雙邊會議上都有提出這樣的議題，就是他們的失聯移工所產生的醫療費用，我們現在試圖往這個方向來處理。"],["王委員正旭：好，如果有什麼結果或什麼成效的話，也可以讓我們瞭解。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們跟委員提供並回報。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。","再過來要請教薪資提升的政策，還有中高齡勞工權益的問題，剛好今天行政院經發會也在討論改善低薪，如何能夠讓所有的青年族群得到有效的改善，另外就是教育部也要研議薪資透明化及企業內部薪資結構等等的問題。請教一下，當我們努力的在提升最低工資及最低小時工資的同時，其實我們也很關心中階的這些勞動朋友，目前還有沒有什麼樣的政策或者是有哪些相對有效的方案？雖然他們已經在這個職場裡面有一個成熟的環境，可是他看著下面這些新進同仁的工資好像越來越逼近跟他同樣，當然還是有差距啦，可是他的感受應該是會不太一樣啦。您身為我們勞動朋友的最高主管，你們這些相關人員有沒有同步的去設想這些中階勞工的這個部分，未來有哪些好的政策或是相關的政策配套可以來協助這部分的勞動朋友們？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們最新的，勞動部這邊就是會主動，我在報告裡面有提到，就是我們跟金管會合作，我們在上市櫃公司的ESG裡面，他們的報告書裡面，我們要求揭露非主管職的薪資狀況，我們希望透過這種揭露讓大家，尤其是有能力支付的上市櫃公司先來啦，能夠讓他們提升他們所有的、大概最低工資以上人員的薪水，我們目前是希望用薪資透明化的方式來處理，也希望這樣能夠有帶動效果。還有包括政府，我們今年提高了軍公教調薪，其實軍公教調薪對最低工資以上勞工朋友的薪資提升會有示範效果，企業會普遍加薪，比如像台塑企業就加了4%，或者比較有能力的企業就會跟進。所以我們也是希望能夠呼籲企業在這方面要多善待自己的勞工啦。其次就是包括我們立院也很幫忙，中小企業條例的加薪抵稅也是一個非常好的修法，今年也通過了，我們會看這樣的政策效果在實際上的實行是如何。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們期待從各方面都可以來努力，讓所有的同仁都有機會得到這樣的好處。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員正旭：再過來想要請教中高齡的工作保障，因為我們最近從媒體上也發現，因為數位化、淨零碳排的這些轉型，導致之前相對資深員工、中高齡員工的工作權受到了影響，這部分有沒有更有效的行政救濟措施，或者是未來如何預作安排？當每一個公司可能都會面臨同樣問題的時候，如何能夠有機會去預作相關的安排來減少這個事件或是類似的情形再度發生？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，在法制面上，其實現在中高齡專法對以年齡為名的資遣，我們是會罰款的，像這個個案就是用中高齡法去罰他，最後這個公司被罰了60萬，所以其實是有法令政策工具的。當然，您講的應該是預防端，預防端方面，確實包括淨零碳排、包括數位轉型，這些都是勞工朋友所面臨的挑戰，我們在這方面，包括對就業訓練，我們也是不停的投注資源在做各種補助，也協助勞工朋友在這方面做技能提升的自我訓練，我們都有補助很多。"],["王委員正旭：對，我們希望勞動朋友知道自己的權益，同時針對這些公司也能夠進行有效的勸導或是必要的處罰。"],["何部長佩珊：我想很多企業可能還不知道，他如果用年齡歧視來資遣的話，是會被罰的，這個我們來加強宣導，好不好？"],["王委員正旭：好。最後有關於退休後重返原聘單位的鼓勵制度，這部分真的媒體討論的非常非常多，所以如何讓屆齡退休的同仁們延聘、續聘或是退休以後再聘，都引發很多很多的討論，我相信這一批退休潮一定還會有很多的……"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員的修法，勞基法第五十四條修正以後，這部分真的引起社會這樣的討論非常多，這也是一個好事，因為大家都開始重視，很多覺得自己還有工作能力的勞工朋友也會開始思考要不要跟公司來討論這件事，所以當然會引起一些討論。我們也在嘗試從這些個案的處理中，來看看我們有什麼更好的方法來推動修法的落實。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們很期待透過更多的討論，使這樣的美意可以真的讓所有的高齡者即使退休以後還可以重返職場，謝謝部長。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員的發言。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155685","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306512b242e8ef6547ab4009fd1c3043021ea9373a247fb1bb1c39797466756a34355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:26:34 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沒關係部長"},{"start":446.633,"end":470.534,"text":"而且這次大法官的憲判制他對於修復式的正義 隻字未提他只在幫死刑犯逃脫死刑但是對於被害人我們這麼多年司法署上面一直講求的修復式正義大法官卻隻字未提他從來沒有去管過這一塊所以我真的不懂這大法官他到底心裡想的是什麼是為這些王八蛋政客在服務嗎部長我上次問過你"},{"start":475.319,"end":498.369,"text":"非常上述成功之後回到普通法院審理回到普通法院審理之後就有無罪推定所以我們就把它當作這一群人都是無罪的人去做無罪推定那我也再三的跟你說除非除非有法官敢違法的下羈押的裁定不然這些人就要放出去欸你101條跟101條刑訴101條跟101條之一哪一些東西可以羈押清清楚楚"},{"start":504.352,"end":528.746,"text":"所以法官要怎麼樣做違法的裁定呢?譬如說林玉如好了,智商57他出去要怎麼篡政?智商57有篡政的能力嗎?有逃亡的能力嗎?所以到底要怎麼樣認定一個智商57的人他出去有篡政逃亡之餘那請問一下法官要如何能夠違法的裁定機啊?那法官只要不裁定機啊,這37個人就有可能會出去啊"},{"start":529.346,"end":556.765,"text":"甚至我們上次有講到了 羈押3個月 延押12個月延押12個月期滿了只有15個月根本就來不及審判完畢嘛那如果你還要再送精神鑑定或這些廢死團體幫他申請一次兩次的精神鑑定那就超過15個月啦那這些人是不是要放出來所以我在這邊要跟所有的人講這些人就是有可能其中一部分會被放出來會回歸到社會那部裡面有什麼做法"},{"start":559.521,"end":588.667,"text":"這個宪判第8號的判決一直有提醒有提醒這個撤銷的這個最高法院會撤銷判決他那個要做注意羈押的問題重新的計算這個羈押的期間部長不要講這些廢話這個委員關心的是不是會放的問題我想這個個案我對案情是不是有沒有101條或101條之一的情形這個我沒辦法去做一個判斷但是我們檢查該做的我們會要求我們就會促請法官去"},{"start":589.307,"end":591.51,"text":"法官有他的智慧會去審酌這個被告應該羈押的理由"},{"start":605.989,"end":629.108,"text":"因為部長不要繞圈子我們都很內行刑訴訟法這些人就可能不被押或超過羈押的期限而被放出來回歸到社會只要有一個人回歸到社會部長這個對目前的執政黨已經對您都是重大的傷害我在這邊只能這樣子跟你說反正你跟我繞圈子我也聽不到我問了兩個禮拜我還是聽不到我要的答案那就算了"},{"start":629.969,"end":652.63,"text":"然後我再來跟你們報告一件事情從鐵路殺警案一審無罪二審有罪整個精神鑑定是天翻地覆看起來就是精神鑑定跟DNA的鑑定不一樣DNA鑑定準確率非常高但精神鑑定常常翻來覆去那會不會變成是很多團體把你精神鑑定到反正有一天要出到他的答案就可以"},{"start":653.882,"end":654.162,"text":"好 最後齁"},{"start":676.401,"end":696.149,"text":"我認為因為我們對於羈押的要件我們都很清楚所以這37個死刑犯最後回到普通法院無罪推定之後確實很有可能法官根本無法羈押因為與法不合那與法不合的情況下這37個很快就放出來或是超過羈押的期間就放出來"},{"start":696.809,"end":706.203,"text":"所以一定要詳實的告訴這個社會部長你上一次在巡打的時候謝謝你很有勇氣的告訴我們說確實沒有把握他們能夠繼續壓著"},{"start":708.87,"end":736.638,"text":"謝謝你至少你上次是有勇氣啦因為這個時機啊這是屬於法對這個是事實而不是上次吳思堯那樣子胡說八道那邊政客亂帶風向我想我們檢察會盡量做我們檢察官職責的權利去做我們職責的事情謝謝謝謝部長我想說委員你也是當過檢察我們能夠做我們會全力說我想窮竭一列力量不讓這些人走路市長為什麼我對這次那麼生氣是因為我真的很重視社會治安因為我覺得這是所有人都希望的我們都不希望有一個殺人犯"},{"start":737.659,"end":763.248,"text":"回到社會然後如果你住同一個社區你坐電梯會跟他一起做你心裡會不會害怕我今天在想的只是這個東西所以我是跟部長報告一件事情在我心中齁我覺得政客齁為的是下一次選舉政治家為的是下一代的幸福然後我很謝謝部長上次有勇氣把話說出來這些人確實有可能將來會回歸到社會"},{"start":764.943,"end":785.92,"text":"我是希望說我覺得所有的官員們跟大法官都不要都不要像這些法盲的政客一樣在那邊在那邊裝傻在那邊講出與法不合的事實這是我的期待所以我上次也說在場其實有非常多法官假官的學長們我如果今天我在法律的部分我有講錯都歡迎來批評我"},{"start":787.501,"end":787.521,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":807.619,"end":808.32,"text":"法官絕對依法下裁定但是101條跟101條之一"},{"start":823.203,"end":833.727,"text":"他對於羈押的要件這些人不符合啊所以當我們對法官有信心他依法下裁定就是不能押嘛那你也只能這樣講嘛我沒有懲辦這個個案所以我不能講"},{"start":845.973,"end":869.095,"text":"那我想檢察會能夠全力用我們的職檔去防治這個被告走入社區對部長你講的沒錯就是你能做的以及現在檢察官能做所以這個問題的話你講的都沒錯部長你講的完全正確確實你可以請檢察官積極的請法官裁定羈押但我這邊要告訴部長的是法官依法如果真的依法處理的話"},{"start":869.776,"end":870.096,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":886.247,"end":901.565,"text":"他就是可能不押否則你跟我講他們符合什麼逃亡之餘符合什麼篡政之餘如果這個都沒有那也沒有那個關了20幾年也沒有反復實施之餘請問一下你可以創設新的法律來叫法官裁定羈押嗎"},{"start":902.566,"end":905.049,"text":"這不是智慧的問題這是法律的問題我國是法治國家部長檢察官們是聰明人我是笨蛋嗎我沒有辦法看懂法律嗎你今天講了什麼話"},{"start":923.479,"end":944.395,"text":"我不懂你這什麼意思嘛我剛已經說了你講的話我能夠認同就是你可以請檢察官積極的去向法官審理羈押但是我在這裡也告訴你依據我國現行刑事訴訟法的規定法官要押的理由在哪裡我真的還是想不到我問了超過20個我的同學的法官他們也說依照現行法就是沒有辦法押"},{"start":946.288,"end":946.748,"text":"我可以接受你這句話"},{"start":966.772,"end":966.832,"text":"謝謝吳宗偉 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時26分）麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長早。部長，我今天主要還是就你們這次業務報告中，有關憲法法庭死刑判決的合憲性解釋的部分去討論，我想我們今天就不要聚焦在很混亂的地方，而要聚焦在「精神障礙或心智缺陷者不得判處死刑」上。我們都很清楚，這一次大法官的判決，其實我個人是認為這完全是一個訴外裁判的憲判，有關精神障礙的部分，它從行為時、審判時跟執行時設了三個關卡，這個都是以前沒有的概念。因為以前我們只知道刑法第十九條是以行為時為判斷基礎，這次大法官直接下了一大堆，我以前根本就沒有想過的東西在裡面。這個出處其實很簡單，這就是實質廢死啊！就不用跟我們在那邊玩文字遊戲說，這不叫實質廢死，然後又講了一大堆五四三的，那個都在騙國人。","部長，你知不知道這次大法官有點名3個死刑犯，他們在審理的時候有無精障、有無自我辯護的能力不得判死，這個部長知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分憲判第8號的意旨是有就這5個人特別去做判決的……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是有3個案子。部長，「現行」的法律有沒有規定，審判的時候不得判死？我指的是「現行」法律喔！部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：現行的就是以第十九條行為時為主，這個我們大家都很清楚。依據你們的報告，你們會依據大法官的指示，修法前不能執行死刑，修法後要幫他們非常上訴，對不對？這個你應該知道，這是你們自己寫的東西嘛！","我再來要提到一個，當初殺了媽媽、婆婆、先生的這個林于如，你現在看一下，就是現在PowerPoint上面所顯示的這個林于如，大法官認為他審判的時候有精神障礙，導致自我辨識能力不足，不能判死刑，而且兩年內要修法。對於這個東西，他的律師說智能不足的這個部長知道是怎麼回事嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個個案，我不清楚這個個案智能不足的情況。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那我跟你講，所謂這個個案的智能不足就是，他在某一次審理的時候，法官給他做智力測驗，測定他只有57，用這個當作不能判死刑的理由，我真的覺得是滿離譜的啦！因為你要知道，一個智商110的人他要演成自己智商是57很容易，但57要演成110是很難，如果這種智能鑑定就可以當作是一個理由的話，我只要做智力測驗時每一題都寫錯就好啦！那麼我的智力可能只剩下30，所以大法官的這些想法，我也只能說嘆為觀止啦！大法官其實就是對這37個死刑犯十分疼惜，要儘量保護他們，像林于如這個案子，在三審時也有做言詞辯論，所以它的程序完備，當程序完備的時候，大法官就幫他找一個理由，說他就審能力有問題，智力只有57，這樣來對法務部要求，我個人完全不認同啦！我也希望部長能夠稍微了解一下這個案子，因為你們自己業務報告……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這些確定死刑的犯人，依憲判意旨現在就是要由總長來審核。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，部長，既然你們的業務報告有提到，我今天就就這個業務報告問你，當然我知道總長有他的考量，但是我現在是要跟你們講，一個人他在行為時，他懂得用藥去處理他自己的先生，那個藥是什麼藥、要去哪裡買，我都不知道了，結果他竟然知道，他也知道要還賭債、知道要詐領保險金，知道要預謀殺人、知道希望檢察官趕快給他死亡證明書，這些他都清清楚楚，他甚至比很多代書都還要厲害，比很多律師都還要懂，結果大家認為他就審能力有問題。這個就是我要點出來現在實務上面會遇到的一個問題，就是當事人只要在庭上裝瘋賣傻，在那邊填寫錯誤的智力測驗的答案，今天他就可以逃過死刑，這是對於現在大法官的認定出來後我的見解啦！當然我也是看看總長以後會怎麼做決策，我們就等著看嘛！大家來看看總長會怎麼做決定。所以只以智力測驗就可以認定有無精神障礙、心智缺陷，我真的是完全的不認同，以前除刑法第十九條以外根本就沒有這樣的規範，加這個規範的目的是什麼我也不懂，所以大法官現在變成是基層法官的太上皇，像林于如的案子總共有19位法官審過，結果幾個大法官最後做出來的憲判就推翻他們以前的死刑確定判決，我看到整個程序走到今天就是這個樣子，所以是不是大法官自己在違憲？我自己的感覺是這樣，大法官今天到底是在解釋憲法，還是專門帶頭在違反憲法？那你們就跟著他們這樣走，部長，你有什麼想法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是尊重憲判意旨來做後續的處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我的感覺啦！我後來發現很多民眾把大法官跟法官混在一起了，其實法官是法官，大法官是大法官，大法官是執政者任命的，根本跟一般普通的法官不一樣，很多人民搞錯了，很多政治人物就故意在誤導人民這個方向，我的感覺是這樣，今天執政者要這些大法官出來去幹盡他們想要幹的壞事，去把根本就已經是廢死裡面的人挑出來當大法官，他當然會做出這樣的決定啊！就像天空要不要下雨，如果是讓賣傘的人來決定的話，這天空絕對不會有晴天，我個人看到目前憲判字對於死刑的觀念就是這樣。","現在大法官要求立法院兩年內要修法，而且修法前不得執行死刑，變成你們都要跟著大法官這樣走，你們也沒有其他的辦法，對不對？沒關係，部長。而且這次大法官的憲判字對於修復式的正義隻字未提，他只在幫死刑犯逃脫死刑，但是對於被害人，這麼多年司法實務上面一直講求的修復式正義，大法官卻隻字未提，他從來沒有去管過這一塊，所以我真的不懂這些大法官到底心裡想的是什麼，是為這些王八蛋政客在服務嗎？","部長，我上次問過你，非常上訴成功之後，回到普通法院審理，回到普通法院審理之後就有無罪推定，所以我們就要把這一群人當作都是無罪的人去做無罪推定，我也再三跟你說，除非有法官敢違法下羈押的裁定，不然這些人就要放出去耶！刑訴法第一百零一條跟第一百零一條之一對於哪一些東西可以羈押規定得清清楚楚，所以法官要怎麼樣做違法的裁定呢？譬如林于如好了，智商57，她出去要怎麼串證？智商57有串證的能力嗎？有逃亡的能力嗎？所以到底要怎麼樣認定一個智商57的人，他出去有串證逃亡之虞，那請問一下法官要如何能夠違法的裁定羈押？法官只要不裁定羈押，這37個人就有可能會出去，甚至我們上次有講到羈押3個月、延押12個月，到延押12個月期滿總共只有15個月，根本就來不及審判完畢嘛！如果你還要再送精神鑑定，或這些廢死團體幫他申請一次、兩次的精神鑑定，那就超過15個月啦！那這些人是不是要放出來？所以我在這邊要跟所有的人講，這些人中有一部分就是有可能會被放出來，會回歸到社會，那部裡面有什麼作法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：憲判字第8號的判決意旨有提醒，最高法院撤銷判決要注意羈押的問題，重新計算羈押的期間……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長不要講這些廢話……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員關心的是不是會放出來的問題，我想這個個案對案情是不是有第一百零一條或第一百零一條之一的情形，這個我沒辦法去做一個判斷，但是我們檢察官該做的，我們會要求，我們就會促請法官去羈押……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是你也沒有把握法官能把這些人押起來，我剛剛也說了，第一百零一條、第一百零一條之一的羈押理由就是那幾個嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信法官有他的智慧會去審酌這個被告應該羈押的理由。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，部長不要繞圈子嘛！刑事訴訟法我們都很內行，這些人就可能不被押或超過羈押的期限而被放出來回歸到社會，只要有一個人回歸到社會，部長，這個對目前的執政黨以及對您都是重大的傷害，我在這邊只能這樣子跟你說，反正你跟我繞圈子，我問了兩個禮拜還是聽不到我要的答案，那就算了。","我再跟你們報告一件事情，從鐵路殺警案，一審無罪、二審有罪，整個精神鑑定是天翻地覆，看起來就是精神鑑定跟DNA的鑑定不一樣，DNA鑑定準確率非常高，但精神鑑定常常翻來覆去，那會不會變成是很多團體就讓他一直做精神鑑定，直到有一天鑑定出他要的答案就可以？所以大法官要求以精神鑑定為依據而不能送死刑，我在這邊跟大家說，我覺得要送精神鑑定，還有要送智力測驗的是大法官，不是這些被告，所以大法官真的要送精神鑑定跟智力測驗，看看有沒有57，這真的很不應該，不能把社會治安這樣玩。","最後，因為對於羈押的要件我們都很清楚，所以這37個死刑犯最後回到普通法院無罪推定之後，確實很有可能法官根本無法羈押，因為於法不合，在於法不合的情況下，這37個可能很快就放出來，或是超過羈押的期間就放出來，所以一定要詳實的告訴社會。部長，上一次在詢答的時候謝謝你很有勇氣的告訴我們說，確實沒有把握能夠繼續押著他們，謝謝你，至少你上次是有勇氣啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個是羈押……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這個是事實，而不是上次吳思瑤那樣子胡說八道，在那邊政客亂帶風向……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們檢察官會盡量依我們的權力去做我們職責應做的事情。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員你也當過檢察官，我們能夠做，我們會全力去做，我們會窮盡一切力量不讓這些人……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，為什麼我對這事那麼生氣，是因為我真的很重視社會治安，因為我覺得這是所有人都希望的，我們都不希望有一個殺人犯回到社會，如果跟你住同一個社區，你坐電梯會跟他一起坐，你心裡會不會害怕？我今天在想的只是這個東西。","最後我跟部長報告一件事情，在我心中，我覺得政客為的是下一次選舉，政治家為的是下一代的幸福，我很謝謝部長上次有勇氣把話說出來，這些人確實有可能將來會回歸到社會。我希望所有的官員們跟大法官都不要像這些法盲的政客一樣，在那邊裝傻，在那邊講出於法不合的事實，這是我的期待。所以我上次也說，在場其實有非常多法官、檢察官的學長們，如果今天我在法律的部分有講錯，都歡迎來批評，但是我今天就是要在這邊告訴大家，這37個死刑犯真的有部分人很快的會回歸到社會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不贊成這種說法，對法官要有信心，我想這個是三審定讞的，憲判意旨第8號也提醒法官要注意羈押的問題，而且是重新計算喔。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長、部長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這個個案的問題，我想個案問題，我不去揣測個案，因為我沒有接觸到這個卷證……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你不認同是你的事，我也跟你一樣對法官有信心，法官絕對會依法下裁定，但是依照第一百零一條跟第一百零一條之一對於羈押的要件，這些人不符合啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我不敢這麼……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以當我們對法官有信心，他依法下裁定，就是不能押嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不敢馬上說跟第一百零一條跟第一百零一條之一這個不符合，因為我沒有承辦這個個案，但是法官在審判的……"],["吳委員宗憲：那你也只能這樣講嘛，「我沒有承辦這個個案，所以我不能講」。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我們會要求檢察官窮盡一切的力量去建議法官羈押，我想我們檢察官會全力用我們的職掌去防制這個被告走入社區。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，部長你講的沒錯，就是你能做的以及現在檢察官能做的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是這個問題的話……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，你講的都沒錯，部長，你講的完全正確，確實你可以請檢察官積極地請法官裁定羈押，但我這邊要告訴部長的是，法官如果真的依法處理的話，我如果是這些37個人的律師，我就跟你打，他就不符合羈押的要件嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個問題，我想由司法院承辦法官來回答這個問題，會比我還……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，部長，OK，你這樣的回答我接受，但是我就是要告訴你，他們就是可能不押，就這麼簡單，他就是可能不押，否則你跟我講，他們符合什麼逃亡之虞？符合什麼串證之虞？如果這個都沒有，關了二十幾年，也沒有反覆實施之虞，請問一下，你可以創設新的法律，叫法官裁定羈押嗎？如果沒有的話，你怎麼可以在那邊保證他們37個不會回歸社會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想檢察官有他的智慧，可以發覺建議羈押的……"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是智慧的問題，這是法律的問題，我國是法治國家耶！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個專業，應該我們有這個專業可以……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，檢察官們是聰明人，我是笨蛋嗎？我沒有辦法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部長好 延續一下剛剛斑斑有先辱的政策我想要請教一下第一個問題是前幾天我們卓院長也說當初推這個政策的時候有點太倉促然後沒有思慮欠舟那就開始有校長學校的國中小的校長開始擔心是不是要轉向是不是要取消這個政策我想要請教一下會持續執行嗎"},{"start":43.922,"end":47.224,"text":"反映西部長我知道但是你後面我一直說未來會持續堅持把這個政策做好嗎"},{"start":62.374,"end":64.416,"text":"部長,請問當初斑斑有鮮乳的政策是你們農業部發起還是教育部提議的?是誰發起的?"},{"start":86.392,"end":107.205,"text":"我想在一開始的時候大概是兩年多前就開始有這樣子一個規劃那在規劃的過程中我們是針對酪農產業特別是所以算是你們發起的嘛對不對應該是我們跟我們有一些想法在跟教育部溝通所以就是你們發起然後然後開始希望說可以可以保障這個酪農產業嘛對不對是是是那剛剛為什麼又說他其實影響不大"},{"start":111.616,"end":135.238,"text":"你說那個斑斑有鮮乳喝到的影響不大,應該不是這樣子吧?我沒有講影響沒有你剛剛,覺得你們之前有說你們之前農業部有說斑斑喝鮮奶不及年產量5%與去化國產生乳無關這兩個事情就是說有些人外界來批評說我們是為了去化而把牛奶送到學校"},{"start":135.558,"end":157.764,"text":"好那沒關係沒關係那我們現在知道了就是基本上我們也認同就是輔導我們國內的落農產業但是喔鮮乳的生產排程至少要一年但是你們想要在這個短短兩三個月內完成結果就陷入這個冷氣房政策不僅沒有加匯到這個落農產業反倒是小落農跟養乳產業先被這個政策弄死部長這個農業部是真的要"},{"start":158.524,"end":178.568,"text":"福島保護弱農產業嗎?好,因為包含我們的這個弱農這個協會理事長也表示依照嘉義開辦這個類似政策15年的經驗總結先乳行前一瓶是18元但農業部的保酒乳你們是開每一瓶14元然後先乳每瓶16元那基本上就是中央訂定的價格實在太低了"},{"start":179.048,"end":197.07,"text":"考量到這個飼料、牧草、冷鏈運輸成本等等他們認為每瓶鮮乳至少要19元才算合格所以現在看起來不僅是沒有配套除了那個什麼冷鏈的問題啦等等的沒有配套之外從一開始招聘、招標的價格就不合理是不是可以請我們農業部和交易部一併檢討這個部分"},{"start":198.191,"end":223.368,"text":"我想後續的政策在推動的時候我們包括價格包括配中的方式包括方式我們都會統一的來做一個好的完整所以我要提議這個部分就是請你們回去檢討之外其實我們國人的這個乳糖肥胎症比例高達88%所以其實也可以輔導像有一些產品是不含乳糖的這種乳品所以這部分是可以思考還有剛剛的這個牛奶兌換券請你們請你們可以去往這個方向思考配合超商"},{"start":224.028,"end":238.399,"text":"再來我要趕快問一個,部長,歐盟在2006年已經全面禁止抗生素作為生長促進,添加於飼料,兼用抗生素是國際趨勢,那我國這幾年也有陸續剔除,但是尚有19種抗生素"},{"start":239.159,"end":244.045,"text":"請問一下部長我們何時可以跟歐盟一樣全面禁止在飼料中使用抗生素作為促進劑生長促進劑"},{"start":255.399,"end":279.25,"text":"我想我們持續針對這些抗生素的部分會有一些品項跟那個部長歐盟在2006年就逐步禁用最後4種這個飼料用抗生素其中這個復熱酶素跟這個阿美拉酶素也是在禁用之列但是我國到目前為止卻還是可以使用請教部長現在我國的這個國家級的防疫體"},{"start":280.13,"end":291.616,"text":"抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫也在7月公布了那其中農業部也是非常重要的角色我國有行動計畫但是行動目標上面有沒有決心要跟歐盟一樣禁用含抗生素的飼料"},{"start":294.159,"end":318.841,"text":"這個部分會跟衛生部來協調那我們一個非常重要的就是我們針對這些抗生素的部分如果說它有人序共通的一些疾病的防止的部分還有一些對於後面有交叉感染的部分我們會做優先在這個部分我們又有一些排序是部長但是在這個行動計畫中其中除了醫院以及用藥的管控之外最重要的就是跟這個農業部的合作但是我們可以看到這個計畫後面的副表"},{"start":319.361,"end":325.118,"text":"也就是這個績效指標或是衡量指標還有目標值你們在工作項目中"},{"start":326.884,"end":352.412,"text":"發展續勤養殖場抗生素減用策略史我看到的時候我是覺得差點沒有暈倒你們居然沒有要像歐盟一樣全面禁用而是一年拖一年你們這些年度目標其實是非常的緩慢喔我想要請問部長我們國家的標準能到就這麼低嗎?你們是不是可以好好的再去檢討你們訂定的這些年度目標究竟有沒有辦法跟上國際趨勢然後以及對我們國人有沒有什麼影響"},{"start":353.486,"end":354.667,"text":"請檢討後的報告再給本席辦公室一份,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時35分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。延續一下剛剛班班有鮮乳的政策，我想要請教一下，第一個問題是，前幾天我們卓院長也說，當初推這個政策的時候有點太倉促，思慮欠周，有國中小的校長就開始擔心是不是要轉向、是不是要取消這個政策，我想要請教一下，會持續執行嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個學期我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：不要講這個學期，未來會持續執行嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，因為我們現在計畫是分階段的，我分兩個部分講。目前我們一定會確實繼續去落實，我們會提……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，我知道，但是我的意思是未來會持續堅持把這個政策做好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以會持續嘛！我可以理解是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：根據院長的指示……"],["廖委員偉翔：不會像這些人擔心的說你們要轉向不做了？"],["陳部長駿季：我想提供牛奶給學童是一個非常好的政策。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長就回答我，會還是不會就好了。"],["陳部長駿季：我想以我們農業部的立場，我們會規劃一個好的方案跟院報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK！部長，我想請問當初這個班班有鮮乳的政策是你們農業部發起，還是教育部提議的？是誰發起的？"],["陳部長駿季：一開始的時候，大概是兩年多前就開始有這樣子一個規劃，在規劃的過程中我們是針對酪農產業，特別是國產的……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以算是你們發起的嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：應該是我們有一些想法，再跟教育部溝通。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以就是你們發起，然後開始希望可以保障酪農產業？"],["陳部長駿季：跟教育部一起溝通，一起努力執行。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，那剛剛為什麼又說它其實影響不大？你說班班有鮮乳喝到的影響不大，應該不是這樣子吧！"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有講影響不大。"],["廖委員偉翔：之前農業部有說，班班喝鮮奶不及年產量5%，與去化國產生乳無關。"],["陳部長駿季：這是兩個事情，就是外界批評我們是為了去化而把牛奶送到學校。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，我們現在知道了，基本上我們也認同輔導我們國內酪農產業。但是鮮乳的生產排程至少要一年，你們想要在短短兩、三個月內完成，結果就陷入冷氣房政策，不僅沒有嘉惠到酪農產業，反倒是小酪農跟羊乳產業先被這個政策弄死。部長，農業部是真的要輔導保護酪農產業嗎？因為包含我們的酪農協會理事長也表示，依照嘉義開辦類似政策15年的經驗總結，鮮乳行情一瓶是18元，但農業部的保久乳，你們開每一瓶14元，然後鮮乳每瓶16元，基本上就是中央訂定的價格實在太低，考量到飼料、牧草、冷鏈、運輸成本等等，他們認為每瓶鮮乳至少要19元才算合格。所以現在看起來不僅是沒有配套，除了那個冷鏈的問題等等沒有配套之外，從一開始招標的價格就不合理，是不是可以請農業部和教育部一併檢討這個部分？"],["陳部長駿季：我想後續的政策在推動的時候，包括價格、包括配送的方式，我們都會統一做一個好的、完整的……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以我提出這個部分請你們回去檢討之外，其實我們國人的乳糖不耐症比例高達88%。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以可以輔導有一些產品是不含乳糖的乳品，這個部分是可以思考的，還有剛剛的牛奶兌換券，請你們可以往這個方向思考，配合超商。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來我要趕快問一個問題，部長，歐盟在2006年已經全面禁止抗生素作為生長促進添加於飼料，減用抗生素是國際趨勢，我國這幾年也有陸續剔除，但是尚有19種抗生素，我想這不僅是我國大型經濟動物始終擺脫不了抗生素抗藥性的問題，也是我們受評鑑分數低的問題。請問一下部長，我們何時可以跟歐盟一樣，全面禁止在飼料中使用抗生素作為生長促進劑？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們持續針對抗生素的部分會有一些品項……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，歐盟在2006年就逐步禁用，最後4種飼料用抗生素，其中富樂黴素跟阿美拉黴素也是在禁用之列，但是我國到目前為止卻還是可以使用，請教部長，現在我國國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫也在7月公布，其中農業部也是非常重要的角色，我國有行動計畫，但是行動目標上面有沒有決心要跟歐盟一樣禁用含抗生素的飼料？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分會跟衛福部協調，有一個非常重要的就是針對這些抗生素的部分，如果說它有一些人畜共通的疾病防治部分，還有一些對於後面有交叉感染的部分，我們會優先，在這個部分，我們會有一些排序。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，但是在這個行動計畫中，除了醫院以及用藥的管控之外，最重要就是跟農業部的合作。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我們可以看到這計畫後面的附表，也就是績效指標或是衡量指標，還有目標值，你們在工作項目中的發展畜禽養殖場抗生素減用策略，我看到的時候差點沒有暈倒，你們居然沒有要像歐盟一樣全面禁用，而是一年拖一年，你們這些年度目標其實是非常的緩慢，我想要請問部長，我們國家的標準難道就這麼低嗎？你們是不是可以好好的再去檢討你們訂定的這些年度目標究竟有沒有辦法跟上國際趨勢，以及對我們國人有沒有什麼影響？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在禁用任何一個抗生素的時候，一定要有一些替代的方式去做一個處理，而不是禁掉以後，那禁掉以後有很多……"],["廖委員偉翔：是啊，當然，但是我是說國際上面的……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來檢討委員所提到的這些衡量標準，應該有更具體的減哪一些項目，而不是純粹只是替代的一些研究。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，而且你們的年度目標是不是有問題也要回去檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個部分，我們會再來檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，檢討後的報告請再給本席辦公室一份，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，可以。"],["主席：請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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沈伯洋好部長好那這個因為今天題目比較多所以這個我第一個我先跳過好了這個我下次再問我先問一下就是說就是之前這次業務報告也有提到就是減法就是說我們希望業務能夠減少那我們有看到這一個就是說這一個跟家屬聯繫社群通訊計畫的實施計畫那不知道這一個落實的如何"},{"start":37.082,"end":64.189,"text":"你現在講的是指說他那個社群通訊的對對對變成用社群的現在就是說我了解是說征戰局他現在是說為了能夠讓家屬跟家屬雙向溝通能夠及時傳達所以呢他就將這個設一個LINE的一個群組然後來快速的來做一個及時的資訊傳達他的原意是如此這樣"},{"start":65.229,"end":80.758,"text":"因為我會問這樣子就是因為我們都還是希望能夠具體落實那我們很高興有看到這樣的一個文發出來因為我們是看到這是國防部發出來的文那當然我們在另外一件事情有因為這一個我覺得應該在落實上應該不會那麼困難但我們有看到另外一個就是在這一個58這個這個報紙部"},{"start":83.88,"end":84.02,"text":"這是不是請陸軍"},{"start":104.536,"end":131.193,"text":"報委員我到目前我沒有掌握到這個狀況下去我會做個了解到委員辦公室向您報告好謝謝因為我覺得這個是蠻嚴重的事情就是說呢我們連坐這種事情就是第一個照理說連坐往下連坐這個其實說真的是不適合啦因為假設今天有發生什麼事情是長官督導的一個責任嘛那如果說今天是因為這樣然後就取消大家的榮譽假這聽起來是不太合適因為畢竟人事是有人事的規定"},{"start":132.153,"end":147.082,"text":"這個對我來講這個從經典來講已經遇到兩次了就是說如果這個是屬實的話就會變成說我們常常人事明明就有人事的規定但是每一個旅每一個營常常用自己的方式去處理那這樣會變成上面沒有下達啦比如說我們剛剛講這個剛剛講這個家屬的社群聯絡這個是美意"},{"start":151.084,"end":151.985,"text":"拜託回去幫忙查證一下這件事情"},{"start":167.782,"end":189.681,"text":"好 可以 我想很多事情我們需要就每個個案來進行檢討檢討之後再傳遞我們認為應該正確的這個領導的方式跟作為好 謝謝部長因為這個從今年開始畢竟有一些零星的這些案件出現那我們都還是要去注意就是每一次我們這種檢法業務減少就是說讓他們專精在戰訓本務這件事情"},{"start":193.664,"end":194.065,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":211.723,"end":239.185,"text":"本來是編的比較多,那今年因為編的比較少,所以這個編制緣額現在有減少。所以我要問的是預算緣額有減少,這一個有解釋過了。那我比較想要問的是下面這一段,就是因為我們看這個預算緣額,我們看到這一個,就是我們是從國防部的資料去跑的這個統計,就會發現真正減少的,因為這一個不同的線是代表2023到2025,顏色越深就代表是越近期的。"},{"start":239.685,"end":267.055,"text":"我們可以看到其實在這個上層降臨的這個部分其實它幾乎沒有什麼差異幾乎減少的都是基層的部隊所以這一個目前我們就算假設我們今天真的要檢討說到底我們這個預算原額的問題或者說未來我們要流盈我都知道因為我們通常會討論到這個流盈率我們的比例現在其實都符合正常但如果我們把它拆開來看的話會發現上面是過度符合正常的"},{"start":267.475,"end":267.635,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":290.259,"end":318.48,"text":"我們正在進行一個通牌的檢討就各項的這個原因就包括就是說你招募有招募成效進來之後但是你的不適乎然後太處或者是這個流盈率的這個的這個比例是如何那這些部分呢我想我們都應該要去理解他的原因是什麼那比如說可能是"},{"start":318.66,"end":318.84,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":336.817,"end":337.037,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":362.492,"end":391.466,"text":"在招募的那個當下他是不是就能夠知道他所要承擔的這些相關的工作等等那他對於這個軍中的這個管理這些相關作為他是不是就他來看的話他是不是能夠充分的知悉他所應該可能面對的這個環境是怎麼樣這個我想都應該是要從招募、留營跟還有管理面還有待遇面各方面要來探討他的誠意這樣子"},{"start":392.806,"end":416.905,"text":"我是聽說政戰之後也會針對這一個做一些研擬跟討論那我們就看在年底之前或在明年的時候我們看有什麼叫通盤的方案因為畢竟部長一開始上任的時候最主要強調的就是業務上的一些不必要業務的減少回歸戰訓本務那我們會針對這件事情來看一下到底有沒有辦法做到改善那這一個業務這個部分我先講到這邊接下來我想講的就是比較回歸戰訓本務"},{"start":420.408,"end":446.267,"text":"這是兩件事情第一件事情就是說這個復工站的這個食材因為這次有山陀兒嘛那山陀兒畢竟停了稍微比較久一點他停了三天那有一些這個復工站呢他們就會發現他們的冷凍庫啊這個預備的這個食材存量撐不到兩三天那但是我們有去稍微詢問其他的因為這個陳情的只是個案我們有去問其他的復工站有一些復工站是說他們的食物其實本來按照他們的存量是有辦法存到兩三天的"},{"start":446.947,"end":468.994,"text":"但是可能有個別的他沒有辦法這樣做那因為這次颱風他是有預警的但有時候會有一些無預警的一些地震天差也有可能會兩到三天那我們有問一些復工站的人員他們會講說就是如果先是有預警的話他們有時候也會讓就是他們採買的這個對象比如說準備多一點比如說瓜果類的啊可以放比較久的啊或者冷凍的肉食品啊等等之類的"},{"start":469.575,"end":470.577,"text":"國防部可以針對這件事情重新來做一次盤點嗎?"},{"start":479.102,"end":501.641,"text":"現在就是說,如果是像現在講的是平時的部分,那平時的部分當然他是由單位像護工站來採買,那我想就這個部分要怎麼樣子讓他能夠平時能夠囤儲這個相關的主戶時,到達一定的日數以上,這件事情我們要來檢討一下。"},{"start":505.924,"end":528.212,"text":"現在一般來講應該是說主副食的部分按照規定應該是30...主食是30日以上主食是30日以上然後單位的冷凍食品都在7天以上這是最基本盤因為畢竟現在我們雖然是討論平時但是我覺得總是我們要去考量到各式各樣的事情的發生"},{"start":529.093,"end":538.353,"text":"對於這些個別的我們再跟國防部來溝通然後看一下至少讓我們確定不管是在糧食不管是在武器等等之類我們都能夠有好的這些存放"},{"start":539.521,"end":568.852,"text":"對,所以我想如果有這樣子的話,那麼如果有單位太依賴這個護工站的這個食材的話,這個可能我們要來檢討一下,這樣。好,謝謝部長。那我本來還先問無人機,那因為時間不夠了,那我再問幾,就是一樣都是跟這個有關的好了,就是也是食品的。就是說我們現在有這個,當然我們有這種加熱式的這種餐盒,當然也有這種乾糧,有各式各樣的。那我們當然也有遇到一些陳情是在講說,因為這一包其實不是很便宜啦,就是"},{"start":569.332,"end":590.118,"text":"在外面買很貴啦,可能要五六百,那我們看過海巡有才買,可以才買到兩百多塊,當然是便宜蠻多,陸軍應該也是可以買到比較便宜,但無論如何我們一個月現在的這個餐食費按照這樣處一處,其實他不可能每一餐都吃到這一個,但我們知道美軍也不可能每一餐吃那麼好啦,那但是目前我們對於,因為之前國防部有提到這個熱食追送,"},{"start":590.998,"end":615.366,"text":"那熱食追送跟這種乾糧會有跟這一個現在這種加熱式的參和目前第一個就是我想知道的是他的規劃如何但第二個最重要的就是預算因為你總是要預算你光是漢光演習五天你就需要多少的這些存糧嗎所以就是目前來講目前經費因為現在我們要進入到這一個預算的審查這個經費的規劃會不會充足我想了解這件事情"},{"start":616.107,"end":627.364,"text":"有關那個就是類似這樣子的一個條理包這樣子的一個我們在明年已經規劃試行新增這個搭配部隊來做那大概是規劃在28"},{"start":630.077,"end":653.66,"text":"臨處議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時25分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：是，沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。因為今天題目比較多，所以第一個我先跳過好了，這個我下次再問。我先問一下，這次業務報告也有提到的減法，就是我們希望業務能夠減少，我們有看到跟家屬聯繫社群通訊作業實施計畫，不知道這一個落實得如何？"],["顧部長立雄：你現在講的是指社群通訊的……"],["沈委員伯洋：對、對！變成用社群。"],["顧部長立雄：我瞭解的是政戰局現在為了跟家屬雙向溝通能夠即時傳達，所以就設一個LINE的群組，然後快速地來做即時的資訊傳達，它的原意是如此。"],["沈委員伯洋：我會問這個，就是因為我們還是希望能夠具體落實，我們很高興看到有這樣的一個文發出來，因為我們是看到這次國防部發出來的文。因為這一個我覺得在落實上應該不會那麼困難，但我們有看到另外一個，就是在58砲指部，有軍人之前在鹽酥雞店飲酒後情緒失控，破壞商家的桌椅，結果裡面有人就說指揮官要求全體人員要取消榮譽假，不知道是不是確有其事？"],["顧部長立雄：這是不是請陸軍參謀長回答？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，到目前我沒有掌握到這個狀況，下去後我會做個瞭解，到委員辦公室向您報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。因為我覺得這個是滿嚴重的事情，即連坐這種事情，第一個，照理說往下連坐，其實說真的不適合，假設今天有發生什麼事情是長官督導的責任，如果說今天是因為這樣就取消大家的榮譽假，這個聽起來不太合適，畢竟人事有人事的規定。從今年來講這個已經遇到兩次了，如果這個是屬實的話，就會變成說，我們常常人事明明就有人事的規定，但是每一個旅、每一個營常常用自己的方式去處理，這樣會變成上命沒有下達；譬如說，我們剛剛講的家屬社群聯絡，這個是很美意，但如果這件事情到最後再往下至軍官的時候，他沒有去落實，然後他又用自己的方式，譬如說他怎麼去管理，運用連坐的方式，這樣就會造成官兵很多的反彈，尤其是基層士兵很多的反彈，所以拜託回去幫忙查證一下這件事情。"],["顧部長立雄：好，可以。我想很多事情我們需要就每個個案來進行檢討，在檢討之後，再傳遞我們認為應該正確領導的方式跟作為。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。因為從今年開始，畢竟有一些零星的案件出現，我們都還是要去注意每一次這種減法、將業務減少，讓他們專精在戰訓本務這件事情，到底往下有沒有澈底執行，我覺得這是重要的；如果沒有澈底執行的話，對於這些不執行的人，我們應該要有什麼處遇，其實我覺得也是重要的事情。","這一個我之前有問過了，所以這個我先不多問，部長有提到這是因為編制上的問題，本來是編得比較多，今年因為編得比較少，因此這個編制員額現在有減少，所以我要問的是下一個……"],["顧部長立雄：預算員額啦！"],["沈委員伯洋：預算員額有減少，所以這一個有解釋過了。我比較想問的是下面這一段，我們看到這個預算員額，我們是從國防部資料去跑的統計，不同的線是代表2023到2025，顏色越深就代表是越近期的，我們可以看到在上層將領的部分，其實它幾乎沒有什麼差異，減少的幾乎都是基層部隊，假設我們今天真的要檢討預算員額的問題，或者說未來我們要留營，我都知道我們通常會討論到留營率，比例現在其實都符合正常，但如果我們把它拆開來看的話，會發現上面是過度符合正常的，但下面基層部隊減少的比率還是稍微比較高一點，這個高一點當然也跟我們剛剛前面講的，到底有沒有能夠貫徹原本的這一些命令，我覺得應該有很大的關係，我才會看到有一些抱怨，可能會有一些不想留下來，所以這邊我只是先給部長參考，我們自己去跑統計，我們有發現這樣的一個問題，希望可以通盤的檢討。"],["顧部長立雄：我們正在就各項的原因通盤檢討，包括招募有招募成效進來之後，但是你不適服然後汰除，或者是留營率的比例是如何，這些部分我想我們都應該要去理解他的原因是什麼。譬如說可能是待遇上，你剛剛匡列的譬如下士以下，因為現在社會上面需求的人力也很多，我們能不能做一個相應的待遇比較基礎，然後來增加招募的成效，招募進來之後，我們怎麼樣讓他能夠適服。剛剛就提到了管理面也是很重大的一個因素，除了管理面之外，對於在招募的當下，他是不是就能夠知道他所要承擔的這些相關的工作等等，對於軍中的管理這些相關作為，就他來看的話，他是不是能夠充分地知悉他可能面對的環境是怎麼樣，我想都應該要從招募、留營還有管理面、待遇面各方面來探討成因。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，我是聽說政戰之後也會針對這個做一些研擬跟討論，那我們就看在年底之前或者在明年的時候有什麼比較通盤的方案，畢竟部長一開始上任的時候，最主要強調的就是一些不必要業務的減少，回歸戰訓本務，我們會針對這件事情來看一下到底有沒有辦法做到改善。","業務這個部分我先講到這邊，接下來我想講的就是比較回歸戰訓本務，這個有陳情，這是兩件事情，第一件事情，他就是說副供站的食材，因為這次有山陀兒，山陀兒畢竟停得稍微比較久一點，它停了三天，有一些副供站他們就會發現他們的冷凍庫預備的食材存量撐不到兩、三天，但是我們有去稍微詢問其他的……因為這個陳情只是個案，我們也有去問其他的副供站，有些副供站是說他們的食物其實本來按照他們的存量有辦法存到兩、三天的，但是可能有個別的沒有辦法這樣做。這次颱風是有預警的，但有時候會有一些無預警的地震、天災，也有可能會兩到三天，我們有問一些副供站的人員，他們會說如果今天是有預警的話，他們有時候也會讓他們採買的對象，譬如說準備多一點，瓜果類的、可以放比較久的，或者冷凍的肉食品等等之類的，但我想知道的是，因為剛好這次山陀兒，所以有一些零星的陳情出現，國防部是不是可以針對這件事情重新來做一次盤點？"],["顧部長立雄：如果是像現在講的是平時的部分，平時的部分當然是有單位向副供站來採買，我想就這個部分要怎麼樣子讓它平時能夠囤儲相關的主副食到達一定的日數以上，這件事情我們要來檢討一下。現在一般來講，應該是說主副食的部分，按照規定應該是30……"],["陳次長道輝：主食是30日以上，然後單位的冷凍食品都在7天以上，這是最基本盤。"],["沈委員伯洋：現在我們雖然是討論平時，但是我覺得我們總是要去考量到各式各樣的事情發生，所以對於這些個別的部分，我們再跟國防部來溝通，然後看一下，至少讓我們確定，不管是在糧食、不管是在武器等等之類，我們都能夠有好的存放。"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以我想如果有這樣子的話，如果有單位太依賴副供站的食材的話，可能我們要來檢討一下。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。我本來還想問無人機，因為時間不夠了，我再問一樣都是跟這個有關的好了，也是食品的。我們現在有這種加熱式的餐盒，當然也有這種乾糧，有各式各樣的，我們當然也有遇到一些陳情在講，因為這一包其實不是很便宜，在外面買很貴，可能要五、六百，我們看過海巡有採買到兩百多塊，當然是便宜滿多，陸軍應該也是可以買到比較便宜，但無論如何，我們一個月現在的餐食費，按照這樣除一除，其實他不可能每一餐都吃到這一個，但我們知道美軍也不可能每一餐都吃那麼好啦！但是目前我們對於……因為之前國防部有提到熱食追送，熱食追送跟這種乾糧，或者跟現在這種加熱式的餐盒，目前第一個就是我想知道的是它的規劃如何？第二個最重要的就是預算，因為你總是要預算，光是漢光演習5天，你就需要多少的存糧？目前來講，因為現在我們要進入預算的審查，這個經費的規劃會不會充足？我想了解這件事情。"],["顧部長立雄：有關類似這樣子的調理包，我們在明年已經規劃試行，新增這個搭配部隊來做，大概是規劃在28日份的調理包，如果明年試行可以的話，我想我們就會來全面實施這樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題，這一方面的預算還有詳情，我們到時候可能在書面或者說到辦公室來討論好了，因為我時間已經到了，主席站起來了，好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，謝謝顧部長。","我們接下來進行詢答的委員是林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155682","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155682","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306532ebb7348837921b3464761d5dfc4adca9373a247fb1bb1cab3a0f130147b6495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:22:30 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ext":"我好像沒有看到這個報導我沒有看到所以這是昨天院長打過電話給你不是打電話我們也聊了不過五分鐘我請教總裁就是說你認為央行是獨立機關"},{"start":406.256,"end":423.642,"text":"我想呢,央行是一個政府的一個制度裡面的但是呢,我們的貨幣政策你們到底算不算獨立機關?你們算不算獨立機關?你認為應不應該有這個獨立性?我是覺得就是說,中央銀行也是政府的體制的一部份"},{"start":425.203,"end":427.345,"text":"我只能說說中央銀行的外匯跟貨幣外匯政策是中央銀行來審定來核定來審查中央銀行應該有自己的獨立性"},{"start":440.558,"end":468.668,"text":"我只是說我們有審查跟核定的這個權限那你如果說我其實我一直一路以來我都非常的敬重你我也非常的尊敬你即便最近這個有幾個國際媒體把你評為B家我都認為你在我心目中仍舊是5A的總裁因為你在做很多事情的果決判斷我覺得是很明朗清楚的當然央行應該有自己的獨立性全世界的"},{"start":469.048,"end":496.166,"text":"自己國家的中央銀行其實都有他的獨立性透明度跟可救責性這個是央行應該要有特性他都不應該有太多的外力的介入我不知道你有沒有讀到包括瘋傳媒跟聯合報在近期都有一篇報導提到就是說如果彭淮南在中太敢把手伸進央行或者是聯合報的標題社論也提到說干預央行兩蔣不敢中太敢"},{"start":497.006,"end":513.502,"text":"你自己有沒有看過這兩篇報告?你有讀到這兩篇報告嗎?有看到吧?跟你有關的你應該有看到吧?你有看到齁?所以看到這兩篇報告齁,是我杞人憂天呢?還是你央行其實心裡也有很多的苦?"},{"start":518.008,"end":535.601,"text":"我剛剛還是有跟委員報告就是說中央銀行的一個貨幣信用跟外匯政策這個是由中央銀行的理事我們的委員會來審核總裁沒關係我問你一句話媒體瘋傳媒評論說彭淮南在"},{"start":539.352,"end":548.039,"text":"朱鴻泰敢嗎?言下之意就是因為是你所以朱鴻泰敢打電話給你你看到這篇報道你心裡有什麼感受?我想有些時候媒體他在對一個事件的評論有些時候他也沒有對整個的情況是不是就是說很真正的去"},{"start":566.753,"end":594.266,"text":"知道他只是說也是應該也就是說從旁邊來看做這樣的一個評論那至於就是說他是不是很準確總裁我過去從來沒有看到媒體用下這麼大的標去批判一個央行的總裁我們過去這麼多幾位總裁一路走下來我從來也很少看到總統會去直接去提說我要找總裁來談一談聊一聊這個政策過檔直接"},{"start":595.126,"end":623.709,"text":"打臉或是欺騙．我們從媒體上看到是這件事情你我都同意央行在做很多決策的時候應該要有它的獨立性要有你們的專業性如果你認為央行應該有自己的獨立性的話未來如果有其他的政治干預我私底下請問你總裁會不會願意用自己的去留去捍衛中央銀行這塊精緻招牌因為央行應該要有自己的獨立性嘛"},{"start":624.9,"end":633.204,"text":"我想我跟委員報告就是說從以前到現在我總覺得...你以前有聽過彭淮南接到過哪些人的電話總統或誰的電話說這個政策直接在媒體上說這個政策過當我要找他來喝咖啡我要找他來了解這個政策不行"},{"start":647.893,"end":659.645,"text":"我還是要跟委員報告就是說媒體他是在旁邊看他的一個所以呢也就是說對實際的情況也不是說百分之百是完全正確的"},{"start":661.307,"end":687.628,"text":"所以我再請我總裁你一直剛沒有回到最後一個我不想佔用別人的時間就是說央行的獨立性是很重要因為他非常你們非常的專業應該不要受到太多政治外力的干擾去做很多的決策我講這句話你同意嘛對不對如果有太多的政治干預去干預到央行的決策總裁你會不會用自己的去留去捍衛中央銀行這塊獨立性的招牌"},{"start":692.394,"end":709.159,"text":"所以如果受到政治力太多的介入,你會不會用你的去留來捍衛央行獨立性的招牌?"},{"start":712.3,"end":715.181,"text":"謝謝袁秀,接下來請李昆城委員發言。"},{"start":747.985,"end":749.241,"text":"好,謝謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時22分）謝謝，可不可以請楊總裁？"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁早安。我想大家都非常關心打炒房後續的成效，從今年8月份開始找公股銀行喝咖啡之後，包括在9月份祭出第七波的相關的打房政策，到打房政策宣布之後，陸陸續續提出了相關的補救措施，我要請問總裁，你覺得這樣一路走下來，你在8月中提到三個政策要達到目標，包括銀行必須要華麗的轉身，包括必須要給投資客、投機客一個教訓，另外就是目標就是讓房市cool down下來，這三個政策目標有達到了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們給銀行的道德說服，他們給我們的資料……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，總裁，因為我們只有10分鐘……"],["楊總裁金龍：就是一年……"],["李委員彥秀：你就直接告訴我，你當時設定的三個目標，現在你自己一定有評估，有沒有達到它的效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我覺得我們還在慢慢的觀察，我也不敢說現在做下去，三個目標都達到。"],["李委員彥秀：朝正向達到目標的……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是目前我總覺得好像有一點向前的樣子，有正向……"],["李委員彥秀：往前走？"],["楊總裁金龍：有正向的一個發展。"],["李委員彥秀：那你一定有預估什麼時候大概會要做一個總檢討。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我很難去預估什麼時候。"],["李委員彥秀：如果沒有達到你這三個目標，後續有沒有可能再進行第八波的打房政策？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們……"],["李委員彥秀：如果沒有達到你的目標，你後面一定還會想……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣子啦，我還是要強調，房地產的健全方案不是只有中央銀行。"],["李委員彥秀：當然是，但是你有……每個部會都有它的政策工具。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對，對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是在你央行的政策工具，就是祭出你的手段。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們滾動式的檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：所以，總裁，如果後續沒有達到你的政策目標，你到底會不會不排除進行第八波的信用管制？有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們滾動式檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：你會滾動式檢討，這就代表有可能，好，那在這個過程當中，就是你滾動式檢討，反正你有的政策工具都有可能祭出來，包括不排除第八波的打房政策，這也是你的選項之一，有可能嘛，所以你才會說滾動式的檢討。總裁，在這個過程當中，有沒有哪些是你覺得處理得不夠細膩或不夠周全的地方？因為你現在才在做補救措施嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的補救措施就是換房子的還有繼承的，換房子的在前一波我們也有這樣一個協處的措施，那繼承的是這一次，因為上一次是沒有對有房子要貸款的，我們沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：所以，總裁，如果這麼說的話，就是當時在祭出第七波的打房政策時有一些例外沒有思考得更完整，對不對？後面才會有補救措施。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不是，事實上，繼承的這個部分，因為有房子然後要借錢的部分，我們這一次才……所以以前的那個，就繼承的我們就沒有提出來，但是換房子的這部分，上一次我們就有協處措施了，所以我們這一次才會再提出協處措施。"],["李委員彥秀：好，這整個打房的過程，我也從媒體上看到總統跟院長也非常關心這件事情，所以，到底總統跟院長有沒有找過你開會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我記得行政院對於新青安的這個問題……"],["李委員彥秀：沒有，就是針對你宣布第七波，你找銀行喝咖啡之後。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：從來沒有打過電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我跟委員報告，我們的第七波都是我們實施了以後，我們馬上把新聞稿送給總統府、行政院。"],["李委員彥秀：你在找銀行喝咖啡之後，8月30號卓院長說他要找你來開會，院長沒有找你開過會？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有跟你通過電話？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，所以有些時候我們如果不講清楚，好像是說……"],["李委員彥秀：你就對我問的問題講清楚就好啦！我從媒體上看到，因為你那時候找銀行來喝咖啡，要祭出限貸令的時候，我從媒體上看到卓院長說要找你來喝咖啡談一談限貸令的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：他沒有說要喝咖啡啦，只是說了解一下……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有找過你？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，了解一下我們做的情況，後來我們給他……"],["李委員彥秀：找過你幾次？"],["楊總裁金龍：一次。"],["李委員彥秀：找過你一次喔，找你開會還是通電話？總統有沒有打過電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：只有談一談，不到5分鐘。"],["李委員彥秀：那總統有沒有打過電話給你？因為我從媒體上看，總統也很關心這件事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：總統也提到這個事情要好好的了解一下，他也非常的關心，總統有沒有打過電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有打電話給我。"],["李委員彥秀：完全沒有喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：就我們道德說服這部分，他沒有打電話給我。"],["李委員彥秀：可是總統在媒體上說，央行在處理這件事情的時候是過當了，所以他沒有打過電話給你？也沒有透過人打電話給你？"],["楊總裁金龍：他沒有講說……"],["李委員彥秀：我從9月1號賴清德總統說……"],["楊總裁金龍：他沒有說中央銀行做這一件事情是過當吧？"],["李委員彥秀：我從媒體上看到。"],["楊總裁金龍：我好像沒有看到這個報導。"],["李委員彥秀：你沒看到喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有看到。"],["李委員彥秀：所以就只有卓院長打過電話給你？好。"],["楊總裁金龍：不是打電話，我們也聊了不到5分鐘，就這樣而已。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我請教總裁，你認不認為央行是獨立機關？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想央行是在政府制度裡面的，但是我們的貨幣政策、外匯政策……"],["李委員彥秀：你們到底算不算獨立機關？你認為應不應該有自己的獨立性？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是覺得中央銀行也是政府體制的一部分，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我只問你……"],["楊總裁金龍：我只能說中央銀行的貨幣、外匯政策是中央銀行來審查核定的。"],["李委員彥秀：中央銀行應不應該有自己的獨立性？"],["楊總裁金龍：我只是說我們有審查跟核定的權限，你如果說……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，其實我一直以來都非常敬重你，我也非常尊敬你，即便最近有幾個國際媒體把你評為B+，我都認為你在我心目中仍舊是5A總裁，因為你在做很多事情的果決判斷，我覺得是很明朗、清楚的。當然央行應該有自己的獨立性，全世界各國的中央銀行其實都有它的獨立性、透明度跟可究責性，這個是央行應該要有的特性，它不應該受到太多外力的介入。我不知道你有沒有讀到，風傳媒跟聯合報近期都有一篇報導，風傳媒提到「如果彭淮南在，卓榮泰敢把手伸進央行嗎？」聯合報的社論提到「干預央行，兩蔣不敢，卓榮泰敢！」你自己有沒有看過這兩篇報導？你有讀到這兩篇報導嗎？有看到吧？跟你有關的，你應該有看到吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，我有看到。"],["李委員彥秀：你有看到喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：我有看到。"],["李委員彥秀：所以看到這兩篇報導，是我杞人憂天，還是你央行其實心裡也有很多的苦？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我……"],["李委員彥秀：完全沒有苦？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛還是有跟委員報告，就是中央銀行的貨幣信用和外匯政策，這個是由中央銀行的理事，我們的委員會審核還有核定……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，沒關係，我問你一句話，風傳媒評論說，如果彭淮南在，卓榮泰敢嗎？言下之意就是，因為是你，所以卓榮泰敢打電話給你。看到這篇報導，你心裡有什麼感受？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想媒體對一個事件的評論，有些時候它也沒有對整個的情況是不是……就是說真正地知道，應該也就是從旁邊看，做這樣的一個評論。至於它是不是很準確，這個我就……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我過去從來沒有看到媒體下這麼大的標去批判一個央行的總裁；過去這麼多的幾位總裁一路走下來，我也很少看到總統會直接提到：我要找總裁來談一談、聊一聊，這個政策過當。直接打臉，或者直接洗臉。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有說我們的政策過當。"],["李委員彥秀：我們從媒體上看到是這件事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他好像沒有這麼說。"],["李委員彥秀：你我都同意，央行在做很多決策的時候應該要有獨立性，要有你們的專業性。如果你認為央行應該有自己的獨立性的話，未來如果有其他的政治干預，我私底下請問你，總裁會不會願意用自己的去留來捍衛中央銀行這塊金字招牌？因為央行應該要有著自己的獨立性嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，從以前到現在，我總覺得……"],["李委員彥秀：你以前有聽過彭淮南接到過哪些人的電話、總統或誰的電話提到政策，直接在媒體上說這個政策過當，我要找他來喝咖啡，我要找他來瞭解，這個政策不行。有直接被這樣打臉過？歷屆的央行從來沒有這樣子被打臉過。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我還是要跟委員報告，媒體是在旁邊看，所以對實際的情況也不是說百分之百完全正確，某些部分是臆測的。"],["李委員彥秀：你剛剛一直沒有回答我，最後一個問題，我不想占用別人時間，就是央行的獨立性很重要，因為你們非常專業，應該不要受到太多政治的外力干擾去做很多決策，我講這句話你同意嘛？對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員的……"],["李委員彥秀：如果有太多的政治干預，干預到央行的決策，總裁會不會用自己的去留來捍衛中央銀行這塊獨立性的招牌？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想從以前到現在，中央銀行的貨幣政策都是我們的委員共同決定的，我只能說……"],["李委員彥秀：所以如果受到政治力太多的介入，你會不會用你的去留來捍衛央行獨立性的招牌？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這個是……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，你要有guts，以後才不會隨便接到電話。去證明你的很多決策是專業的，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：我總說一句話，就是我謝謝委員的支持跟鼓勵，就這樣子啦！可以吧！"],["李委員彥秀：你仍舊是我心目中5A的總裁，下次有機會我再跟你好好聊是為什麼。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝彥秀。","接著請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306595bbed24269f4b6160efc051a48f2135a9373a247fb1bb1ce445050a438e2b795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:22:22 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農藥 央苗還有待耕的機器還有最重要的是這個央苗不能用機器化一定要人來做一個央苗的培育才有辦法而且工資又被調整了現在從日薪從1500條高到2000元割稻機也漲到30幾萬在這種種的情形之下"},{"start":108.942,"end":129.885,"text":"老公基本工資調了豬肉價格調了雞蛋價格調了中油的價格調了台電雖然虧損但是他也調了為什麼公糧13年不能調就是不能調你剛剛所講的因為供過於求"},{"start":131.584,"end":145.117,"text":"因為你的稻穀盛產所以你要控制那本席想請問你休耕一年兩期你現在休耕一年幾期以前是兩期現在呢一期"},{"start":146.221,"end":163.051,"text":"為什麼?你鼓勵耕作那你鼓勵耕作的話你要轉做你的123政策本席也支持照顧農民的權益本席支持因為農民是最辛苦的你剛剛特別計算到半年的時間他們的收成成本扣掉後收入6萬塊7萬塊現在基本工資多少錢?"},{"start":171.755,"end":189.024,"text":"半年時間6個月他一個月平均下來多少錢將心比心做他部長這個位置農業部你有苦民所苦嗎道民這麼辛苦做長的時候陳吉仲說讓農民賺一點點嘛淡商有淡荒的時候淡的價格調弄多少錢"},{"start":196.314,"end":203.868,"text":"我們為了讓全民每天有蛋吃也讓你調了現在道農苦哈哈要求你調整"},{"start":209.469,"end":228.241,"text":"現在公糧收購價錢是26塊施糧是多少錢平均21、22塊所以我們反映市場機制希望公糧去帶動著施糧你不希望大家來攪公糧沒有問題現在全國的公糧土地面積24萬到27萬公頃但是部長數字遊戲不是這樣玩的"},{"start":235.953,"end":243.966,"text":"你收購公糧的價格不是全部的24、27公頃而是有限量的只有10%"},{"start":245.598,"end":266.277,"text":"只有30%這就是你們的大約只有收購7公頃而已這是有限量的你對公糧的收購是有限量的有限量的所以並不是你在27公頃乘以5塊錢就要上百億"},{"start":267.213,"end":267.433,"text":"主席"},{"start":281.314,"end":309.937,"text":"如果你知道這個公糧的限量收購目前這樣子收購的話大概20億到22億但是你說周邊要花掉的上百億我也請你把明確的政策做出來但是今天你的報告這123政策已經執行十幾年了我們都支持但是123政策執行的時候他是照顧了什麼生產環境"},{"start":312.793,"end":313.874,"text":"我跟你們報告第一點的部分"},{"start":333.609,"end":333.909,"text":"所以有私糧啊"},{"start":362.362,"end":385.36,"text":"現在私糧價格多少錢現在私糧如果是契作的話是26到29左右你們給我的資料怎麼不是沒有我找出來要的資料資料都2122而已喔所以你把公糧價格提高就帶動私糧私糧提高的時候的話大家去找私糧而且全部他們生產的私糧會用契作的方式在你123政策不抵觸你管作區域"},{"start":386.721,"end":386.881,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":404.389,"end":404.869,"text":"不是這兩件事情"},{"start":432.04,"end":432.281,"text":"現在太多腦農了"},{"start":441.94,"end":467.379,"text":"部長你要考慮到現在很多老農年輕人沒有加入那你的休耕又從兩次一年兩次改成一次硬要他們來轉作轉作的話你又要求不能一期的做這個二期又再做這個一期做這個二期要再去轉作別的不管是雜糧還是什麼的但是你知道嗎你會耕田嗎你會耕作嗎你知不知道你要轉作的時候要翻土"},{"start":468.36,"end":483.275,"text":"翻土要多大的工人跟成本跟時間啊就翻土去做你翻土再去做的話第二年又再改換所以這個政策有一個在我們這自愛難行的地方本席跟你討論部長你要聽進去"},{"start":486.523,"end":501.631,"text":"我非常謝謝那個委員的指正那水岸田輪作其實就是一個非常有效的能夠維持地利的部分然後第二個您剛才講的就是公糧有限制你只要符合資格你就可以來繳公糧限制數量嗎那個數量本身不是說優質的"},{"start":507.654,"end":507.974,"text":"所以部長 我跟你講"},{"start":523.371,"end":538.416,"text":"我把重要的都告訴你有困難的還有現實面的問題都告訴你請你回去研議一定要落實照顧農民權益好不好會 這個一定我們一定會做到那第二個本期要跟你討論的就是斑斑有鮮奶"},{"start":539.651,"end":558.279,"text":"現在斑斑有線來的這個情形在我們桃園來講的話在全國來講幾乎75%都轉做這個薄酒爐的那你要照顧的弱農有照顧到嗎還是去照顧女性來為他們先把路鋪好來未來他們進來的時候可以空開的使用薄酒爐"},{"start":559.119,"end":587.497,"text":"我跟委員報告現在全台灣國產的生乳大概是47.2到48萬噸然後學童營養用的乳量大概是2萬噸左右所以不管是鮮乳跟薄酒乳它都同樣能夠照顧到我們的肉農第一點那第二點就是鮮乳本身保存不易就是生產段它都會用冷卻的方式你當時在執行這個政策的時候你會想到鮮奶保存不易那學校沒有這麼多冷藏的冰櫃所以"},{"start":588.882,"end":590.283,"text":"可是切的量太大了那提升也來不及了"},{"start":613.376,"end":617.397,"text":"部長你如果了解問題冷藏需要冷藏沒有這個設備還有我們的量我們鮮奶的量不足的話那可不可以說我們發行鮮奶券讓他們直接到超商去兌換"},{"start":636.533,"end":640.315,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,我們未來如果新推出的一個新的方案"},{"start":651.961,"end":652.381,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":674.367,"end":677.789,"text":"對,我們有一個方案,我們有一個方案協助對,我們所有的乳品的部分一定是一定要百分之百國產的然後第二個就是"},{"start":691.015,"end":691.115,"text":"希望趕快解決這問題"},{"start":717.529,"end":718.69,"text":"這個學期我們會針對已經訂單的部分我們會盡量去確保他的學童能夠喝到牛奶"},{"start":726.656,"end":755.593,"text":"我想我們不是只針對鮮乳去做研議我們剛才說的我們的目標就是下一屆如果要再繼續推的話一定讓學校不然現在大家都又喝飽酒乳了啊不我們會再去溝通齁就是如果能夠第一個把鮮乳跟飽酒乳現在的那個比例能夠做適當的溝通可是不只要在這邊保證他們是一週喝兩次你不會量少的時候改成一週喝一次喔不能改喔沒有我們持續的會跟乳廠去做一個溝通增加產能"},{"start":755.954,"end":755.974,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":360,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席今天特別排了這個議題就是要好好來研究，當我們政府在執行政策的時候有窒礙難行，所有的效益沒有辦法照顧到你這個政策的所有人的時候，我們必須要研議來修改。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：才能夠讓我們的政策讓大家都能夠受惠，這是我們最大的一個努力的方向。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以今天必須要討論，在討論的時候，我請部長先從大的層面來看起，不要一直要把你的政策嚴格執行下去，所以我們立委是嚴格的監督，就是要讓你把所有政策能夠執行到最下面，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以剛剛部長特別講到，我們農地有租賃地的價格，但是除了這個以外，因為地是農民他們從祖先留下來耕作的農地是不會改變的，我們不去計算這個價格，但是現在為什麼要調整公糧價格？就是要反映生產的成本，它有哪些成本呢？肥料、農藥、秧苗還有代耕的機器，還有最重要的是這個秧苗不能用機器化，一定要人來做秧苗的培育才有辦法，而且工資又被調整了，現在日薪從1,500調高到2,000元，割稻機也漲到三十幾萬，在這種種的情形之下，勞工的基本工資調了，豬肉價格調了，雞蛋價格調了，中油的價格調了，台電雖然虧損，但是它也調了，為什麼公糧價格13年不能調就是不能調？你剛剛所講的，因為供過於求，因為你的稻穀盛產，所以你要控制，那本席想請問你，休耕1年2期，你現在休耕1年幾期？以前是2期，現在呢？"],["陳部長駿季：1期。"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望……"],["呂委員玉玲：你鼓勵耕作，那你鼓勵耕作的話，你要轉作，你的123政策，本席也支持，照顧農民的權益，本席支持，因為農民是最辛苦的。你剛剛特別計算到，半年的時間，他們的收成成本扣掉他們的收入是6萬塊、7萬塊，現在基本工資是多少錢？半年的時間是6個月，他一個月平均下來是多少錢？將心比心！做到部長這個位置，農業部有苦民所苦嗎？稻農這麼辛苦，豬肉漲的時候，陳吉仲說，讓農民賺一點點嘛，蛋商在蛋荒的時候，蛋的價格調了多少錢？我們為了讓全民每天有蛋吃，也讓你調了，現在稻農苦哈哈，要求你做調整，現在公糧的收購價格是26塊，私糧是多少錢？平均二十一、二十二塊，所以我們反映市場機制，希望公糧去帶動私糧，你不希望大家來繳公糧，沒有問題，現在全國的公糧土地面積24萬到27萬公頃，但是部長，數字遊戲不是這樣玩的，你收購公糧的價格不是全部的24至27公頃，而是有限量的，只有30%，這就是你們大約只有收購7%而已……7公頃而已，這是有限量的，你對公糧的收購是有限量的、有限量的，所以並不是你的27公頃乘以5塊錢，就要上百億，不是這樣計算的。你的123政策的時候，為什麼只有16.5億而已呢？所以部長，在你來拜訪我的時候，我也請你好好的來計算，如果你知道這個公糧的限量收購，目前這樣子收購的話，大概是20億到22億，但是你說周邊要花掉上百億，我也請你把明確的政策做出來。但是今天你的報告，這個123政策已經執行十幾年了，我們都支持，但是123政策執行的時候，它是照顧了什麼？生產環境，我們現在講的公糧價格提高是反映生產成本，所以部長，這是可以並行的，不衝突，是可以並行的，你一定要去考量所有農民的需求，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一點，目前看起來，剛才委員說的成本提高，但是相對的，在這十年來，它的產量也提高，所以我們算過了，就是實際的相對的影響大概是到2%到3%，而不是10%，這是第一個說明；第二個說明，我們一直希望引導稻農能夠用更優質的產品去提高它的售價來支撐他的所得，而不是用政府的經費去支持。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以有私糧啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在私糧價格多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：現在私糧如果是契作的話，是26到29左右。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們給我的資料怎麼不是這樣？我早上才要的資料。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我是說契作的部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：資料上才20、21、22而已啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我說……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你把公糧價格提高就會帶動私糧，私糧提高之後，大家去找私糧，而且全部他們生產的私糧可以用契作的方式，跟你的123政策不牴觸。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["呂委員玉玲：你的集團的團作區域裡面不是每個人都去集合欸，如果沒有參加你這個集團區域的話，那他領不到這個錢啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們會鼓勵他們來……"],["呂委員玉玲：而且你的123政策是屬於獎勵的性質，如果他們沒有參加你這個獎勵政策就什麼都拿不到，這不是全面的。"],["陳部長駿季：但是透過這樣的方式的話，他會去支撐他的產地價格，甚至於更提高，從過往的例子來看，當你產地價提高的話，他就不會繳公糧了，所以我們希望產地價能夠越來越高，農民就會繳交公糧，剛才說的部分農民繳公糧……"],["呂委員玉玲：他們會不要契作，要去集團區作，這個都是因為我們公糧有限制收購。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，這是兩件事情。"],["呂委員玉玲：怎麼會是兩件事？因為你限制收購的話，他們就要去做集團，那集團的區域的話，他們不會去配合啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在太多老農了，部長，你要考慮到現在很多老農，年輕人沒有加入，你的休耕又從1年2次改成1次，硬要他們來轉作，那轉作的話，你又要求不能一期的做這個，二期又再做這個，一期做這個，二期要再去轉作別的，不管是雜糧還是什麼的，但是你知道嗎？你會耕田嗎？你會耕作嗎？你知不知道你要轉作的時候要翻土，翻土要多大的工人跟成本跟時間？要翻土去做，你翻土再去做的話，第二年又再改換，所以這個政策有一個讓我們窒礙難行的地方。本席跟你討論，部長，你要聽進去、你要聽進去！"],["陳部長駿季：我非常謝謝委員的指正，水旱田輪作其實就是一個非常有效的能夠維持地力的部分；第二個，您剛才講的就是公糧有限制，你只要符合資格，你就可以來繳公糧，它只是數量……"],["呂委員玉玲：你限制數量。"],["陳部長駿季：不是說某一些人……對，那個數量本身不是說……優質的……我們希望他轉到優質契作的，您剛才講的老年人的部分，這個方案在啟動的時候，我們也會去針對年紀大的人，他不了解集團經營主體，我們也會協助，最重要的是水稻是打電話種水稻的。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我要跟你講，我把重要的都告訴你。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：有困難的，還有現實面的問題都告訴你，請你回去研議。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要落實照顧農民權益，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，這個我們一定會做到。"],["呂委員玉玲：第二個本席要跟你討論的就是班班有鮮奶！現在班班有鮮奶這個情形在我們桃園來講、在全國來講幾乎百分之七十五都轉為保久乳，那你要照顧的酪農有照顧到嗎？還是去照顧紐西蘭？為他們先把路鋪好，未來他們進來的時候可以公開使用保久乳。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在全臺灣國產生乳大概是47.2到48萬噸，學童營養用的乳量大概是2萬噸左右，所以不管是鮮乳跟保久乳，它都同樣能夠照顧到我們的酪農，這是第一點。第二點就是鮮乳本身保存不易，生產端會用冷鏈的方式。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，當時要執行這個政策的時候有沒有想到鮮奶保存不易，學校沒有這麼多冷藏冰櫃，所以就可以用保久乳嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在就是盡可能針對有訂單的部分，我們會確保每個學生都能夠喝得到。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在因為鮮奶不夠了，我們本土酪農的鮮奶不夠了，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，保久乳部分的產能，我們會去協調保久乳的生產量能夠再提升，但是我們一定會讓……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是缺的量太大了，你要提升也來不及。"],["陳部長駿季：對，誠如院長所說，我們後續再規劃新的政策一定不會造成更多的負擔。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席在這邊建議，部長，你如果了解問題，需要冷藏但沒有這個設備，還有鮮奶的量不足的話，可不可以發行鮮奶券，讓他們直接到超商去兌換？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們一定會找到一個更有效的方法……"],["呂委員玉玲：它就沒有保存的問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：找到更有效的方法去處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們所有超商有這個量可以供應啊！我們的美意才能執行下去。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，未來如果推出一個新的方案，一定不會增加學校的負擔，也能夠讓縣市政府做很好的配合，這個部分我們後續會來做一個規劃。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是，部長，最重要的是要照顧我們本土的酪農。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是一個非常重要的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以未來如果紐西蘭的保久乳、長效乳進來的時候，因為我們是要補助給酪農，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們有一個方案去協助。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以，補助一定要補助給我們本國的酪農，不能夠讓他們競標，要保護我們的酪農好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所有乳品的部分一定是要百分之百國產，第二個就是生乳的行銷，我們會努力，但是在生產端，我們也會持續協助。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以一定會用本土的保久乳？"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定百分之百。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定是百分之百？"],["陳部長駿季：一定是百分之百用國乳。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，這是你這邊保證的，第一個。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：第二個，你們有沒有研議要用鮮奶券？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會做整體的規劃。"],["呂委員玉玲：做個調整嘛！這也沒有運送跟保存的問題啊！而且數量也夠。"],["陳部長駿季：最重要的目標就是不會讓學校增加額外的負擔，也會讓……"],["呂委員玉玲：希望趕快解決這個問題，執行已經很久了。"],["陳部長駿季：這個學期我們會針對已經有訂單的部分，儘量去確保學童能夠喝到牛奶。"],["呂委員玉玲：鮮奶券大概要研議多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們不是只針對鮮奶券研議，我們剛才說的，我們的目標就是下學期如果要再繼續推的話，一定讓學校……"],["呂委員玉玲：不然現在大家都去喝保久乳啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再去溝通，如果能夠把鮮乳跟保久乳現在的比例做適當的溝通……"],["呂委員玉玲：不是，部長要在這邊保證，他們是一週喝兩次，你不會在量少的時候又改成一週喝一次？不能改喔！"],["陳部長駿季：我們持續會跟乳廠去做一個溝通，增加產能。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員質詢，謝謝部長。","我們接下來請廖偉翔委員。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：我們在賴瑞隆委員質詢完畢休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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我反而倒會認為說你至少法務部針對這一些你會認為說那是老共強的鑰匙我們也不用去擬他你看昨天那個毛寧被外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候日本的記者就問他嘛他就直接講這個是中國的內政任何國家都不能干涉他的講法就非常強悍啊那比強悍他就叫做後製小本啊我以為部長你會講得很強你知道嗎"},{"start":147.097,"end":169.149,"text":"至少像面對這種問題不能說法務部都沒有關係阿好像就會覺得說阿沒辦法阿他要怎麼做我們沒辦法阿但我認為態度不應該是如此阿我一直在觀察這種問題的時候阿面對中國這樣修訂法律對台灣民眾有所衝擊的時候法務部這一體幾乎都是缺席的我認為這不對"},{"start":171.031,"end":193.574,"text":"我認為不對,你至少有很多智庫嘛,法務部裡面有很多專家嘛,既就法務部你還可以單槓一個,你適度的一個發言,這可以很有安定民心的一個作用啊,這不只是總統的成績,這也不是只有這個整個行政院的成績啊,你小小的一個中國的外交部的一個發言人,然後你就出來給你指三道四啦。"},{"start":194.4,"end":219.817,"text":"這個部分我想說委員請容我表達一下我的看法我想中國他雖然他以他的內政為理由來拒絕外國的干預但是我想中國以內政的理由也不可能也不應該在這個法律上面對台灣有這樣子的一個敵意武力攻擊的這樣子的一個法律的規範這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話是一個"},{"start":223.78,"end":224.06,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":243.908,"end":244.328,"text":"外交國安委員會備詢外交國安委員會備詢"},{"start":267.625,"end":285.167,"text":"你的態度是什麼?我們當然是非常的不同意啊,對啊,非常不同意中國這樣子的一個做法你不能跟人家說不同意啊,你不能跟人家說不同意啊,我認為這個在國會殿堂上這樣打都不及格啦然後說你說不同意,你不同意那民眾說啊?法務部在司法委員裡面說不同意捏,這樣就好了?"},{"start":287.935,"end":289.076,"text":"我是覺得這樣太過於微弱了 請回來我要來今天正入"},{"start":307.734,"end":307.934,"text":"主席"},{"start":328.4,"end":354.591,"text":"這樣的一個討論有助於我們整個實質修法的一個建議在我們憲法第78條裡面去講司法院本來就是解釋憲法跟統一解釋法律跟命令所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決不要去談拘束力的當然會一定會有拘束力所以我要請教部長的就是說就變成說我們大家在討論討論就是說如何針對整個程序讓它更完備"},{"start":356.838,"end":359.42,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會"},{"start":377.77,"end":401.755,"text":"14歲以下的那些你根本你也沒辦法幫他怎樣那甚至於啊說你到如果說我們憲法的我們刑法的一個規定如果說14歲以上不到18歲他認為他的罪責能力就比較低甚至於80歲以上或者精神障礙甚至於陰陽或心智缺陷辨識能力在行為時他降低的時候這些都不得"},{"start":402.555,"end":427.194,"text":"去處以極刑所以都要去減輕啦那這法律效果來講目前是減輕可是法律實務上我相信也沒有人會認為說未滿18歲啦或者說這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人去把他處以極刑就是死刑啦但是這次修法來看的話我不曉得針對憲判制這樣第8號提出來第7點部長你的看法未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看"},{"start":428.91,"end":445.415,"text":"這部分我們有提出那個根據這個憲法憲判意旨我們有就刑法63條做一個提出的一個修正的一個草案因為這個也是跟的也是配合那個憲法現在刑法19條的那當然啦那當然啦所以你現在就是說那個刑法63條那你從哪裡放進去"},{"start":450.899,"end":454.56,"text":"你本來我一直在想說你那個19條第二項後段本來是得檢清其刑嘛那些得你做一個修改我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為說這個就是在廢死了我們也不是什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的一個犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑那像這一種很明顯的在罪責"},{"start":476.647,"end":490.184,"text":"他根本就不足以來在他行為階段的時候去辨識他在做這件事情的時候,或者判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣,他去做這樣一個犯罪行為的時候,你說要被處罰到那裡,就等於我們民間常常在說的,剛好笑的就在旁邊啦,剛好笑的就在旁邊"},{"start":495.601,"end":521.539,"text":"那個委員包括我們63條那個修正常是有那個19第2項那個情形他是19是得檢嘛那在63條我們的修正常是把他是不得處死刑這是配合那個宪判制8號的一個解釋那所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來我們這個有請求小組我們就提了那我想我們盡快做法制作業我們盡快都要報到行政院好那我另外啊要來就教了"},{"start":522.563,"end":543.175,"text":"這個就是一個大問題了我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的一個進度跟建議我一直都認為立法院裡面當然在修法必須要去回應民意但是我們也必須要去謹慎牽一髮而動全身在高度專業跟民意之間你必須要去做一個平衡"},{"start":543.795,"end":564.94,"text":"我相信部長這邊應該也去看到了你們的業務報告要推動國家司法科學研究院在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查以目前來看的話你這個組織法跟現行法務部法醫研究所你們到底有什麼具體的差別嗎我是不希望他只是換湯不換藥你的方向"},{"start":573.777,"end":591.661,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那基本上就是說差距完全是不一樣的怎麼說呢我們如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話我們會負責國家司法科學的一個政策的擬定還有這個"},{"start":593.919,"end":596.721,"text":"我比較擔心的是當事人的防禦權的問題我們都很清楚"},{"start":618.018,"end":640.255,"text":"在一個審判庭上齁所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據除了那些例外以外全部都是傳聞喔那你這個如果升格以後提升上來以後它變成是一個權威的一個鑑定機構那你現在鑑定人除非雙方同意當事人同意或者那另外兩項例外不用倒庭"},{"start":641.897,"end":668.702,"text":"可以有證據能力嗎我現在很擔心的是說你現在變一個你把它當成是一個我們修法完以後把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院那你這個鑑定出來機關的名義出去那又變成形成傳聞法則的一個例外這樣到時候如果說你的這個鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話"},{"start":670.401,"end":674.423,"text":"司法研究院作出的一個鑑定報告是機關出去喔阿人不用倒庭這樣哪通這樣通嗎報委沒有這個問題阿為什麼沒有這個問題"},{"start":692.688,"end":707.08,"text":"刑事訴訟法偵查審判的時候還是要由檢察官法官來指揮檢察官法官如果認為有必要還是可以傳鑑定人到場來作證我們上次在修去年在修刑事訴訟法這個地方就出現漏洞"},{"start":710.176,"end":726.483,"text":"我們當初是在講說你那個例外是在講當事人民事同意還有依法執掌類型像譬如說內政部刑事警察局法務部調查局衛部司官署還是說主管機關認定的醫院實驗室團體符合這一些都不用出庭"},{"start":728.899,"end":730.861,"text":"會不會有妨礙到當事人在訴訟上攻防,尤其他的權益的問題?"},{"start":744.477,"end":764.43,"text":"法委沒有這個問題,原則上有政績能力,但是必要的時候,當事人、被告或律師還是可以來請求傳喚是啦,你講的那個是法院,如果案子我在審,當然我可以把鑑定人"},{"start":765.45,"end":791.745,"text":"請到法院上來接受兩照或者是訴訟辯護人的他的一個他之間的一個結論嘛那當然可以那如果他不要呢他就直接跟你這樣講咧來來市長根文報告齁即使在機關鑑定的狀況下我們現行法行使法規範還是可以請求他道願來說明跟這個相關鑑定的要道願說明他並沒有排除鑑定的道願說明可是因為我們有創設例外啊因為訴訟法現在有"},{"start":793.292,"end":809.529,"text":"即使機關鑑定他現在多了一個他必須要拒明跟拒絕吧而且必須要到法院來說明他有規定我現在比較擔心的就是說對於不利益的一個鑑定喔那我們刑事訴訟裡面這樣的一個規定裡面那法官他也有可能我相信權威啊"},{"start":810.82,"end":817.086,"text":"他沒有免除這個鑑定的道庭說明的義務未來還是要說明所以我是比較擔心不會造成這種狀況好謝謝謝謝莊委員謝謝部長次長跟"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":681,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時12分）請問主席，今天只有法務部嘛？好，那有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長早。首先我針對一個時事題就教你的看法是怎麼樣，早上大家的質詢幾乎都在於細節，昨天在媒體上大家看到，美國的戰略與國際問題研究中心發布，關於中國反分裂國家法，明年20週年，可能就是他們要去修法，為以後使用武力統一臺灣提供合法性。我不曉得站在法務部的立場，你的看法上，到底我們是應該去修改國內法，或者我們應該把整個問題帶到整個國際法庭上，不曉得法務部部長，面對比如中國的反分裂國家法再次做修正的話，這對國人產生很大的衝擊嘛！你有沒有什麼想法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：反分裂國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣、我國人民的一些……"],["莊委員瑞雄：恐懼，當然會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員關心這個問題，這是非常重要的一個國安問題，這部分我們是贊成，如果有制定新法的必要的話，當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的……詳細部分是不是我可以請調查局局長答復？"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以，我反倒會認為至少法務部針對這一些，你會認為那是老共強得要死，我們也不用去理他，你看昨天外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候，日本的記者問他，他就直接講這個是中國的內政，任何國家都不能干涉，他的講法就非常強悍。比強悍的話，這叫做潑水相噴啊！我以為部長你會講得很強，你知道嗎？至少像面對這種問題，不能說法務部都沒有關係，好像就覺得沒辦法，阿共仔要怎麼做，我們也對他沒辦法啊！但我認為態度不應該是如此。我一直在觀察就這種問題，面對中國這樣修訂法律，對臺灣民眾有所衝擊的時候，法務部就這一題幾乎都是缺席的，我認為這不對！我認為不對，至少你有很多智庫，法務部裡面也有很多專家，至少法務部還可以擔當一個適度的發言，這也有安定民心的作用。不只總統層級，這也不是只有整個行政院的層級啊！小小的一個中國外交部的發言人毛寧就出來給你指三道四啦！我不知道部長的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分，委員，請容我表達一下我的看法，中國雖然以它的內政為理由拒絕外國干預，但是我想中國以內政的理由，也不應該在法律上面對臺灣有這樣子的敵意、武力攻擊的一個法律規範。這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話，是一個很直接的威脅。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很微弱，這個聲音都太微弱，在我聽起來聲音都太微弱。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我當一個老百姓，我聽起來這種聲音都太微弱。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：譬如我們自己本身，我們也有國安法，或者我們會不會調整相關的法律？對於中國這樣子顢頇、單方面制定法律，衝擊到臺灣的民眾，我們也可以做這樣一個很強硬的主張啊！"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，昨天剛好我也在外交及國防委員會備詢，這個部分我跟沈伯洋委員做過討論，他也提到其實我們在外患罪的部分應該要有修法的一個表現。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我說你們的想法、態度。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你的態度是什麼？"],["陳局長白立：我們當然是非常不同意啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對……"],["陳局長白立：非常不同意中國這樣子的一個作法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不能只說不同意，我認為這個在國會殿堂上打分數都不及格啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：哪有說你都不同意！你不同意，民眾想說：啊？法務部在司法及法制委員會裡面他們說不同意耶！這樣就好了喔？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，我想這不是我的層級。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不能這樣說，就是因為不是你的層級，你話可以說得很大聲，你知不知道？你譙他也沒關係！我層級就小小地而已，又沒有到總統、行政院長那樣，當然你也可以譙他。我是覺得這樣太過於微弱啦！請回。","我要正式進入今天的主題，上個禮拜專報的時候大家都在討論整個憲判字第8號的爭點，我看立法院大家都去揣測大法官的真正的意圖是不是要廢除死刑？但我反而會認為，這整個討論有助於我們實質修法的建議，憲法第七十八條裡面就講，司法院本來就在於解釋憲法與統一解釋法律及命令，所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決，不要去談拘束力，當然一定會有拘束力。","我要請教部長的是，就變成我們大家在討論，如何針對整個程序讓它更完備，可能憲判字第8號提出來的，就是整個第七點裡面談到的，在刑法第十九條第二項如何把它完備的問題。我想部長，只要坐在這邊的都很清楚，刑罰要處罰一個人，第一個當然是罪責能力，14歲以下的那些你根本也沒辦法把他怎樣。以刑法的規定，如果14歲以上不到18歲，認為他的罪責能力就比較低；80歲以上或者精神障礙，甚至於瘖啞或心智缺陷，辨識能力在行為時降低的時候，這些都不得處以極刑，所以都要減輕。以法律效果來講，目前是減輕，可是法律在實務上，我相信也沒有人會認為，未滿18歲或者這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人，把他處以極刑，就是死刑。但以這次修法來看的話，我不曉得針對憲判字第8號提出來的第七點，部長的看法，未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們有根據憲判意旨，就刑法第六十三條提出修正的草案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個跟那個也是配合現在刑法第十九條的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然啊！所以你們現在就是針對刑法第六十三條，直接把它放進去？本來我一直在想，第十九條第二項後段本來是「得減輕其刑」，那邊的「得」你們做了一個修改。我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為，這個就是在廢死，我們也不是什麼樣的狀況、什麼樣的犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑，像這種很明顯在罪責方面根本就不足以辨識他在行為階段去做這件事的時候，其判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣，使得他做出這樣的犯罪行為，說要把他處罰到這麼重，就像民間常常在說的，遇到瘋子時，你就閃到一邊去啦！就是遇到瘋子嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，第六十三條的修正草案是有第十九條第二項的那個情形，第十九條是「得減」，我們在第六十三條是把它修正為「不得處死刑」，這個是配合憲判字第8號的解釋。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這個刑修小組會提，我想我們會儘快進行法制作業，也會儘快報到行政院。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我另外要來就教，這個就是一個大問題了。有關我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的進度跟建議，我一直都認為，立法院的修法必須去回應民意，但是我們也必須謹慎因為牽一髮而動全身，在高度專業跟民意之間，你必須去做一個平衡。我相信部長應該也有看到，你們業務報告裡面指出，要推動國家司法科學研究院，在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查。以目前來看，這個組織法跟現行的法務部法醫研究所到底有什麼具體的差別？我是不希望它只是換湯不換藥，你的方向呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是不是可以請……"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，侯寬仁。"],["侯所長寬仁：謝謝委員的關心，基本上差距完全是不一樣的，怎麼說呢？如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話，我們會負責國家司法科學政策的擬定，還有實驗標準、實驗室認證、人員證照的管理，還有司法科學教育的推動。以我們目前來講，我們只有管實際的鑑定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就不是要管到那邊去啊！我比較擔心的是當事人防禦權的問題。"],["侯所長寬仁：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們都很清楚，在一個審判庭上，所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據，除了那些例外的以外，全部都是傳聞。如果你這個升格，你把它提升上來以後，它變成一個有權威的鑑定機構，現在鑑定人除非雙方當事人同意，或者有另外那兩項的例外，不用到庭就可以有證據能力。我現在很擔心的是說，你現在把它當成是一個修法完以後，把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院，這個鑑定出來的結果會以機關的名義出去，又變成形成傳聞法則的例外，這樣到時候如果在你的鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話，你這個鑑定人不須要到庭接受詰問耶！你們只會說我們這是司法科學研究院做出的鑑定報告，因為這是以機關的名義出去，若人不用到庭的話，這樣可通？這樣通嗎？"],["侯所長寬仁：報告委員，沒有這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：為什麼沒有這個問題？"],["侯所長寬仁：因為事實上刑事訴訟法偵查、審判的時候，還是要由檢察官、法官來指揮，檢察官、法官如果認為有必要，還是可以傳鑑定人到場作證。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們上次（去年）在修刑事訴訟法，這個地方就出現漏洞了。"],["侯所長寬仁：沒有，那是第一時間……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們當初是在講說……你那個例外是在講當事人明示同意，還有依法執掌類型，比如內政部刑警局、法務部調查局、衛福部食藥署，或是主管機關認定的醫院、實驗室或團體，符合這些的都不用出庭耶！這個外界都有所批評啊！當然，這個是比較細，我比較擔心的是，你現在成立以後，用機關的名義出去，會不會妨礙當事人在訴訟上的攻防，尤其是涉及其權益的問題？"],["侯所長寬仁：報告委員，沒有這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不會嗎？"],["侯所長寬仁：委員剛剛講，原則上是有證據能力，但是必要的時候，當事人、被告或律師還是可以請求傳喚鑑定的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！你講的那個是法院，如果案子我在審，我當然可以把鑑定人請到法院上來，接受兩造或者訴訟辯護人之間的詰問。這樣當然可以，但是他如果不要的話呢？他就直接這樣跟你講呢？來，次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，即使在機關鑑定的狀況下，我們現行刑事訴訟法的規範還是可以請求他（鑑定人）到院說明，並沒有被排除鑑定人到院說明的義務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是我們有創設例外啊！"],["黃次長謀信：訴訟法現在也有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：即使是機關鑑定，現在又多了一個必須具名跟具詰。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["黃次長謀信：而且必須要到法院來說明，它有規定，並沒有免除……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在比較擔心的就是，對被告不利益的鑑定，我們刑事訴訟法裡面這樣規定，法官也有可能相信權威啊！"],["黃次長謀信：但它並沒有免除鑑定人到庭說明的義務，未來還是要說明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我是比較擔心啦！"],["黃次長謀信：沒有這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不會有這種狀況？"],["黃次長謀信：不會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝部長、次長。待會在鍾佳濱委員質詢完畢，我們休息10分鐘。","接下來有請吳委員宗憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},{"id":"155678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30652e3b1344ccbc805b4009fd1c3043021ea9373a247fb1bb1ce3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:00:09 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對不對"},{"start":35.78,"end":39.274,"text":"我有一個問題想要就教於兩位"},{"start":40.325,"end":63.735,"text":"因為我最近接到一些關於政府的一些關於治理的問題所以剛好來請教兩位我想請教您就是我們的政府在推動2025非核家園為了推動這個目標所以全數的推動綠能可是當我們在發展綠能的時候經濟部他有一個擔憂"},{"start":64.955,"end":83.152,"text":"他怕台灣變成外商套利的這個對象所以在比方說一些風場的開發案上他要求開發商一旦接了這個風場的開發案市股要遵守規定不可以超過股權的50%說你後來接到政府的風場"},{"start":84.093,"end":109.746,"text":"你接下來事故不可以超過50%那如果你超過他就是甚至可以重罰甚至會跟經濟部跟能源局簽訂的離岸風電開發契約會自動失效你覺得我們今天政府設一個所謂的發起人開發商這個得到政府的這個所謂的風廠開發的許可之後不能夠事故到50%以下你覺得這個設規定合理嗎"},{"start":113.237,"end":114.398,"text":"就是怕有些廠商如經濟部講的"},{"start":131.894,"end":152.433,"text":"就是我用西施來標結果最後把這個權利賣給東施沒錯吧因為他如果今天我今天是以羅智強身份來標案對不對結果到最後標到案子之後呢結果就把這個標案的權利讓給張三你覺得政府可以允許這種事情嗎"},{"start":153.766,"end":176.417,"text":"可不可以部長你應該看過很多政府標案的問題吧對不對署長你也有問署長好了你覺得這樣好嗎我們會請我們的政風注意這個狀況我告訴你不好啦所以經濟部這個規定是合理的問題就來了我想請教您你知道我們在2017年有一家公司叫達德"},{"start":178.158,"end":184.013,"text":"他就是獲得我們經濟部號來許可建制允能風力發電廠"},{"start":185.68,"end":187.682,"text":"我請問一下署長這個有什麼問題啊"},{"start":215.533,"end":240.693,"text":"我們對這個案件的部分就是說我會請我們政風再瞭解一下詳細的部分非常好非常好這是你回答我待會要問的問題經濟部原來說不可以事故到50%以下這家公司很厲害欸一路就事故到從100到0而且中間都是誰核准的你知道嗎都是誰核准的這是誰核准的事故是誰來核准經濟部啊"},{"start":243.816,"end":262.171,"text":"經濟部自己設了50%的原則結果讓達德一路四股市道變成是零那我想這中間到底有什麼問題您總知道像這風場動輒的利益就上百億吧是很大的因為政府給的短購價格很高嘛這第一個問題我們經濟部長昨天答應過我囉"},{"start":264.873,"end":266.013,"text":"請問廉政署你會得到這個訊息嗎?目前沒有"},{"start":289.161,"end":315.144,"text":"如果接到請你好好地去了解好嗎第二個問題更大了經濟部說不能到50%以下結果一路的準但經濟部也是中間也突然良心發現他中間有一天當達德從48要再去調整要去試骨試到25的時候經濟部也受不了了他說你這樣子不對啊"},{"start":316.127,"end":329.982,"text":"你如果這樣做我跟你講我現在直接告訴你你在你拿到電業執照錢你不准再去變更你的股權如果你變更股權我就要罰你了就重罰前面講重罰罰第一個19.2億的這個懲罰性違約金罰第二個更重"},{"start":337.61,"end":348.442,"text":"因為我剛剛講短購價格比我們一般的那個電力成本要高政府是給一個算特許的利益所以政府本來給予允能風場每度電視要用5.8元來買結果經濟部在這個裡面就會議當中說如果你再動你違約的話"},{"start":356.63,"end":378.907,"text":"我就取消你這給你的短購的這個利益本來5.8塊錢跟你買每度電我改成2.13元跟你買每度電中間差價3.67元然後呢算起來因為他每年可以發22.4億度電五年下來你知道可以總共如果是按迴避成本處罰要處罰多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":380.183,"end":390.485,"text":"這數學有點複雜啦3.67再乘以這個5再乘以22.4億嘛對不對411億元啦第一個是發19.2億元第二是處罰迴避成本將近400億元你知道最後我們經濟部發多少嗎發3.5億元那我想請問齁這麼重大的所謂的一個違反當時經濟部原則的一個做法"},{"start":410.158,"end":422.904,"text":"那經濟部本來的裁罰在白紙黑字的那個會議記錄上都說你再變動股權我就要祭出這個處罰了結果我最後達得變成0經濟部最後罰3.5億該罰不罰算不算圖利的一種請問署長"},{"start":431.78,"end":458.771,"text":"該罰不罰也是圖利的一種部長最近我們的檢察官辦圖利辦得很辛苦啦對不對也很努力在辦圖利這件事情是經濟部長答應我啦他說要移送到檢察機關移送政風我真的這邊拜託我們的法務部拜託我們檢察官甚至廉政署"},{"start":459.775,"end":466.461,"text":"不用等經濟部移送部長雖然很有誠意要移送你們可不可以主動來辦一下聯政署"},{"start":467.83,"end":490.401,"text":"可以齁 答應了對不對拜託幫我們好好查清楚政府治理到底出了什麼問題為什麼經濟部明明講不可以事故50%以下結果這家公司可以一路從100趴趴趴趴趴到最後變成0那經濟部中間都已經說你如果再動我要罰你了結果到最後高高舉起400億輕輕放下3.5億"},{"start":493.747,"end":511.124,"text":"這中間這麼大的一個所謂的變化那是中間有沒有土地的問題這些都拜託我們這個部長跟署長好好瞭解一下好不好我們來瞭解下一個問題我想請教部長為什麼要有偵查不公開的設計"},{"start":515.419,"end":529.526,"text":"為什麼要偵查不公開我那天跟你聊天的時候我有一個主張你有聽到了對不對我說我們行事訴訟法不要規定偵查不公開啦乾脆改成偵查大公開你贊不贊成直接再行訴法修偵查大公開你贊不贊成你贊不贊成我們還是要落實那個對阿你反對我也反對我是開玩笑的阿我是專業協會委員就知道我要問什麼阿"},{"start":542.318,"end":569.368,"text":"我在虧你啦沒錯吧請問我們現在偵查不公開這個規定跟偵查大公開到底差別在哪裡我看不懂阿我看不出來阿我隨便舉個例子阿2019年到2023年偵查不公開案件檢討數7255件平均一年1450件部長你知道今年上半年檢查機關所謂列為檢討案件有多少件嗎今年上半年喔"},{"start":570.342,"end":571.605,"text":"今年上半年齁 總共列入要檢討是2035件"},{"start":579.073,"end":585.658,"text":"這只是說你們撿新聞撿下來看到的嘛我告訴你人民的觀感來自於你今天看到的來自於今天我們從新聞上看到偵查不公開現在最大的問題在哪裡新聞上到處都有偵查公開的訊息啊"},{"start":601.497,"end":625.861,"text":"我跟部長說雖然時間不夠啦那我在會後希望您再針對這部分再告訴你到底解決辦法是什麼但是我要特別強調一件事情我跟部長你也交流你們也覺得你們冤枉嘛不一定是檢察官嘛對不對我相信我們的辦案團隊可是跟部長跟你講我舉個例子我舉很快就講了你講那個論點已經跟我講300遍大概有了"},{"start":626.92,"end":629.281,"text":"今天我如果跟你講說哇靠不得了我們這個今年上半年有兩千多件竊盜案"},{"start":656.451,"end":670.875,"text":"然後部長說這不是檢察官偷的你覺得這個交代得過去嗎2000多件竊盜案算不算是犯罪案件然後你跟我講你一個都沒抓到是因為這不是檢察官幹的你可以這樣講嗎我告訴你這個比喻非常貼近我今天直接跟你我就問你嘛來來來我跟問部長"},{"start":682.864,"end":707.886,"text":"今天偵查不公開 是不是鐵針針的犯罪事實 天天在我們的報紙電視上上演這個媒體這些有報導的 這些報導的源頭在哪裡 這個不能夠說是不是從那個 不是欸 這個媒體報導的 我要跟部長說 你要這麼違反這個所謂的我們大家能夠看到的眼見為憑的東西 我也佩服你"},{"start":709.011,"end":714.728,"text":"今天就這麼多的泄密案在你眼前然後你最後跟我講一句說這不是檢察官泄的就當沒事了"},{"start":715.799,"end":740.72,"text":"犯罪偵查我就請問嘛 那麼多泄密案在前面 你們有沒有去偵辦嘛 有沒有約談了誰 有啦 柯文哲案有啦 但是只有柯文哲案嗎 只有那位記者而已嗎好啦 我要主席都站起來 我也不為難主席啦 拜託齁不是啊 我要拜託您啦 真的 你自己列的新聞就那麼多 你辦出來績效是如何 難怪大家對偵查不公開不滿意 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那我們有請顧部長來 部長請社區委員好"},{"start":12.117,"end":32.592,"text":"部長好,我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要事關我們在飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致以及是否能夠達到預期的效果首先我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質我們先看第一個就是過濾酸M這個AP固態的推進器"},{"start":36.275,"end":62.975,"text":"那過濾酸呢是過濾酸胺的原料過濾酸胺可以說呢它是固態的等同過濾酸胺的半成品我們就統一呢叫它AP非氮的固態推進器那呢它的這個過濾酸胺的成品為切割符合這個需求的球狀目前有規格兩種直徑225跟400微米那它是美國管制出口的關鍵的原料"},{"start":64.215,"end":65.056,"text":"我們是請中科院回答"},{"start":87.564,"end":91.347,"text":"除了第7項沒有使用AP之外,其他都要用到AP,表示過濾箱安在這2400億的特別預算中,可以說是舉足輕重的。"},{"start":114.824,"end":115.745,"text":"那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過?"},{"start":132.369,"end":150.347,"text":"是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題"},{"start":154.278,"end":170.544,"text":"我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的,我們不用相信它,真的。"},{"start":171.844,"end":187.051,"text":"我們來看一下我們接下來有2400億的抗中的飛彈在去年112月向美國太平洋公司進口163噸市價台幣8000萬的過濾酸胺我們看到的是第一點是我們有沒有按合約送驗這個問題你還沒有回答我"},{"start":198.891,"end":200.913,"text":"所以不需要驗收也沒有關係?如果我製造不成的話我當然就退貨"},{"start":228.806,"end":241.327,"text":"所以有檢驗?當然有檢驗。好,你們有檢驗就對了。是。好,所以呢,好,那我們看一下,那美國這個,你是怎麼檢驗的?你是第三方抽驗嗎?"},{"start":243.016,"end":243.737,"text":"還是美方抽菸?"},{"start":262.048,"end":262.728,"text":"這沒有錯,美國來的是你說是比較好,但是我們來看一下"},{"start":285.874,"end":286.114,"text":"我再強調一遍"},{"start":312.383,"end":334.522,"text":"如果氯酸胺碰到零的話,它就直接爆炸了。沒有,那請問它這個SGS怎麼做的?是爆炸來做的嗎?所以說我覺得這個檢驗報告真的我們大家有待評論一下。你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的。我建議這個報告我們要在事實查核一下。你說要在事實查核一下,那你認為SGS報告是有問題的是嗎?是的,我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的。"},{"start":339.355,"end":357.552,"text":"所以你認為這個報告是有錯的但是我告訴你一下這已經不是第一次有人去查核了這是第二份以上有人去SGS去查核這些從美國寄到貨的一些相關的這些美國寄來的樣品那美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品"},{"start":358.593,"end":380.084,"text":"他在送到台灣的時候在樣品上面來說是有些微的不正常但是還算是可以但他的大貨送到我們香港的表面抽樣的時候就開始比例開始不正常了在大貨桶內的抽樣的時候就是極端的不正常的情況"},{"start":381.104,"end":393.097,"text":"所以我們可以看到就是說呢 廠商給了我們的大貨那在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP但是呢在裡面來講的話是會有問題的"},{"start":396.22,"end":396.76,"text":"我必須要強調我製造飛彈的固態火箭"},{"start":424.124,"end":426.506,"text":"你精煉出來的東西那當然是後續嘛但是你前面你還是會有他的原料啊"},{"start":447.722,"end":448.482,"text":"在JP10的存度應該要是多少?"},{"start":474.43,"end":488.755,"text":"正常的話,我們希望它的純度是越高越好。多少呢?我們現在精煉出來之後的JP10都到99%以上。99%以上,那有沒有加入其他的化學物?有,這我不方便講。"},{"start":489.403,"end":511.89,"text":"有嘛,你沒有不方便講的問題,因為其實呢他這個資料是有可以看到但在美國的軍方的資料裡面我可以給大家看一下正版的美軍軍規裡面呢他很清楚的看到這是我們有花14塊美金來解鎖的美軍的軍規裡面他寫到外四侵二環誤二析必須要介於98.5%到100%"},{"start":514.711,"end":533.515,"text":"但是在我們的JP10裡面是只要在加劑了相關化合物裡面有達到98.5%就算合格那你認為現在台灣的這個JP10跟美國官方的這個軍規的JP10有相符合嗎?沒有,所以他正在接受我們的輔導產制"},{"start":538.556,"end":546.645,"text":"所以你們要介紹那所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況那已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的委員沒有沒有那什麼時候才會因為你現在的這個查核情形那你看到的是我們現在你說中科院採購作業已經周延了"},{"start":559.58,"end":560.661,"text":"那我現在就在針對這個部分在詢問阿"},{"start":589.319,"end":606.789,"text":"我詢問你的中華化工公司你告訴我說以真周延但是他就是還加入了其他的化合物那你告訴我以真周延但又不符合美國的軍規你說你還在輔導他但是你告訴我已經非常周延了這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎"},{"start":609.546,"end":626.698,"text":"我們說以針周延是我們輔導他他已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範但是我沒有辦法把他量產我們同時輔導國家所以沒有辦法把他量產但以針周延對是這樣子喔所以你以針周延的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣"},{"start":627.898,"end":639.827,"text":"部長你是法律人喔?你看到以真周言的感覺是什麼?是已經完成了呢?還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子?原來以真周言的解釋是說還沒有辦法量產那只是說我們還在輔導當中"},{"start":644.53,"end":668.362,"text":"副長最後一點時間給你回答好不好副長院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下好請再要為我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP10來增加他的產量那接受我的輔導他已經能夠做初步做出來的話我們就認為他好你已經完成我的輔導但是最後你要我要下單跟你量產驗收的話你必須要通過我的驗收標準"},{"start":669.443,"end":694.154,"text":"一個是接受輔導他合格了一個是我可以下單跟你量產這是完全不同的定義你123不都講說沒有疑慮嗎你看你上面寫的powerpoint上中華化工產能無疑慮中華化工交貨品質無疑慮中科院採購作業以增周延這是你上面自己寫的然後你現在又告訴我說他還不能跟你下單他還不能跟你交貨因為你還在輔導"},{"start":695.114,"end":723.239,"text":"所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容明顯肉眼可見是不一樣我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢台上備詢台上還要跟我硬拗所以因為我的時間已經到了謝謝朝偉還多給我一點時間講但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣所以不管你的態度再如何的強硬所有人都可以看到就是不一樣不一樣就是不一樣所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告用書面回覆 謝謝"},{"start":724.565,"end":724.869,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時13分）謝謝主席，我們有請顧部長。"],["主席：顧部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好，我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要，事關我們的飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致，以及是否能夠達到預期的效果。首先，我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質，我們先看第一個就是過氯酸銨，這個AP，固態的推進器，過氯酸是過氯酸銨的原料，過氯酸銨可以說它是固態的，等同過氯酸銨的半成品我們就統一叫它AP，飛彈的固態推進器。過氯酸銨的成品，為切割成符合需求的球狀，目前有兩種規格，直徑225跟400微米，它是美國管制出口的關鍵原料，意思就是，美商需要經過美國政府點頭才能夠出口。第一個問題想要請教，我們在海空戰力提升計畫的採購特別條例，2,400億的預算裡面有八個項目，想要請問一下部長，你知不知道這八個項目裡面有哪幾項都需要用到這個AP，過氯酸銨？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是不是請中科院來回答？"],["李院長世強：報告，除了第七和第八項，不對，第七項裡面的武器也需要，所以除了第八項之外，其他都有。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看一下答案。李院長說除了第七項之外都有需要，除了第七項沒有使用AP之外，其他都要用到AP，表示過氯酸銨在這2,400億的特別預算中，可以說是舉足輕重的。其實先前菱傳媒有出版一個報導，關於中科院外購過氯酸銨出包的問題，就是因為磷成分過高，抗中的飛彈射程只有勉強過低標而已，這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我有看到，是不是請中科院來說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：等一下，我先講一下。這個問題有三個重點，第一個，中科院是不是有放水，沒有按照合約送驗？第二個，是不是有磷含量超標嚴重的問題？第三個，是不是有廢品過多，有200噸放在廠區的問題？"],["李院長世強：委員，我直接很簡單的回答，過氯酸銨它是一個強烈的氧化劑，如果過氯酸銨碰到磷，馬上就爆炸了，怎麼可能過氯酸銨裡面含磷呢？所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導，真的，委員不用相信它，真的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們來看一下，我們接下來有2,400億的抗中飛彈嘛，在去年（112年）向美國太平洋公司進口163噸，市價臺幣8,000萬的過氯酸銨，我們看到的是，第一點，我們有沒有按合約送驗？這個問題你還沒有回答我。"],["李院長世強：委員，過氯酸銨它只是我們製造固態火箭的一個前驅物質，所有的過氯酸銨，不管是國產的，或者是進口的，我們都必須要經過我再精煉，之後才能夠去用在我的固態火箭上。所以有關這個前驅物質，它在精煉的過程中間自然會有我的倒置和工法，這跟驗收無關。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以不需要驗收也沒有關係？"],["李院長世強：如果我製造不成的話，我當然就退貨。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有檢驗。"],["李院長世強：當然有檢驗。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你們有檢驗就對了。"],["李院長世強：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們看一下，美國這個部分你是怎麼檢驗的？你是第三方抽驗嗎？還是美方抽驗？"],["李院長世強：委員，我再強調一遍，過氯酸銨是我製造固態火箭的前驅物質，我們所謂檢驗，就是在我再煉化的過程中，只要它的煉化有問題的話，就代表它的成分有問題。正常來講前驅物質，其實過氯酸銨很簡單，它就是過氯酸和氨水的混合物，就是這樣，那我在再精煉的過程中間能夠精煉多少出來，就是它的成分有多少。我們現在有兩個來源，一個是從美國進口，一個是臺灣的中國石化，事實上來講的話，美國進口的原料比中國石化的好，而且中國石化是我們輔導它產製出來的。"],["徐委員巧芯：這沒有錯，美國來的你說比較好，但是我們來看一下，美國寄來的樣品有三個階段，我可以給你看一下，有吹哨者拿去SGS做了這個檢測，送來樣品的檢測，在鈣跟磷的部分，它是2.2比1，在鈣跟磷的部分，正常來說，請問鈣跟磷的比例應該要是多少？"],["李院長世強：委員，我再強調一遍，如果過氯酸銨碰到磷的話，它就直接爆炸了，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，那請問他這SGS怎麼做的？是爆炸來做的嗎？"],["李院長世強：所以我覺得這個檢驗報告，真的，我們大家要小心……"],["徐委員巧芯：你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的？"],["李院長世強：我建議這個報告，我們要再事實查核一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說要再事實查核一下，那你認為SGS的報告是有問題的，是嗎？"],["李院長世強：是的，我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的，必須要……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為這個報告是有錯的？但是我告訴你一下，這已經不是第一次有人去查核了，這是第二份以上有人去SGS查核相關的這些美國寄來的樣品。美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品在送到臺灣的時候，在樣品上面來說有些微的不正常，但是還算是可以，但它的大貨送到我們港以後進行表面抽樣的時候，比例就開始不正常了，在大貨桶內抽樣的時候，就是極端的、不正常的情況。所以我們可以看到，廠商給了我們的大貨，在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP，但是在裡面來講的話，是會有問題的，這也會讓大家感到相當的憂心。所以下一批貨是在11月向美國太平洋公司進行181噸，市值9,000萬的AP，看到這邊來講的話，你還是秉持相同的看法，是一樣進貨，用一樣原本的方式進行檢驗，是嗎？"],["李院長世強：委員，我必須這樣強調，我製造飛彈的固態火箭，AP只是一個前驅物質，它必須要經過我的工法再精煉，我們對自己的工法非常有信心，這是所有製造國防工業的基礎。中科院對我們自己的火工非常有信心，我們也相信我們精煉出來的固態火箭原料沒有問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：你精煉出來的東西當然是後續，但是在前面你還是會有它的原料啊！"],["李院長世強：委員，所以我們有兩種原料，一種是國內我輔導出來的中國石化產製原料，一個是從美國進口的原料，在我們再精煉的過程中，我們覺得第二種比較好。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們再看一下第二個，好不好？就是在JP的部分，除了固態的部分，還有液態的部分。在液態的部分，我想請問一下，JP-10的純度應該要是多少？"],["李院長世強：正常的話，我們希望它的純度是越高越好。"],["徐委員巧芯：多少呢？"],["李院長世強：我們現在精煉出來之後的JP-10都到99%以上。"],["徐委員巧芯：99%以上？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：那有沒有加入其他的化學物？"],["李院長世強：有，這我不方便講。"],["徐委員巧芯：有嘛！你沒有不方便講的問題，因為其實這個資料是可以看到的，但是在美國軍方的資料裡面，我可以給大家看一下，在正版的美軍軍規裡面很清楚地看到，這是我們花14塊美金來解鎖的，在美軍軍規裡面寫到外四氫─二環戊二烯必須要介於98.5%到100%，但在我們的JP-10裡面是只要再加計相關化合物有達到98.5%就算合格，你認為現在臺灣的JP-10跟美國官方軍規的JP-10有相符合嗎？"],["李院長世強：沒有，所以它正在接受我們的輔導產製。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況、已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的？"],["李院長世強：委員，沒有！"],["徐委員巧芯：都沒有？那什麼時候才會……"],["李院長世強：這不可能的。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為依現在的查核情形，你說現在中科院採購作業已經周延了，然後你也說這個東西跟其他的氫化合物加在一起，你認為這是可以的，你現在又告訴我跟美軍的軍規不一樣，所以你正在輔導當中，既然是還在輔導當中，那又怎麼會已經周延呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，我們不是同時只有輔導一家廠商。"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在就針對這個部分在詢問啊？"],["李院長世強：所以它沒有通過我的檢驗，我當然不可能把它充填進我製造的武器，這是我們的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：我詢問你的中華化工公司，你告訴我已臻周延，但它就是還加入了其他的化合物，又不符合美國的軍規，你說你還在輔導它，但是你告訴我已經非常周延了，這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎？"],["李院長世強：委員，我們說已臻周延是我們輔導它，它已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範，但是我沒有辦法把它量產，我們同時輔導國家……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以沒有辦法把它量產，但已臻周延？"],["李院長世強：對！"],["徐委員巧芯：是這樣子喔？"],["李院長世強：我們同時輔導……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你「已臻周延」的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣？","最後一點時間，部長，你是法律人，你看到「已臻周延」的感覺是什麼？是已經完成了呢？還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子，原來「已臻周延」的解釋是還沒有辦法量產，只是我們還在輔導當中。部長，最後一點時間給你回答，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下。"],["主席：好，請摘要。"],["李院長世強：委員，我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP-10來增加它的產量，那接受我的輔導，它已經能夠初步做出來的話，我們就認為它已經完成我的輔導，但是最後我要下單跟你量產驗收的話，你必須要通過我的驗收標準，一個是接受輔導，它合格了，一個是我可以下單跟你量產，這是完全不同的定義。"],["徐委員巧芯：你一、二、三點不是都說沒有疑慮嗎？你看在PowerPoint上面寫的：中華化工產能無疑慮；中華化工交貨品質無疑慮；中科院採購作業已臻周延。這是你上面自己寫的，然後你現在又告訴我說它還不能跟你下單，它還不能跟你交貨，因為你還在輔導，所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容，肉眼明顯可見是不一樣，我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢臺上、備詢臺上還要跟我硬拗？因為我的時間已經到了，謝謝召委還多給我一點時間講，但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西，今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣，不管你的態度再如何強硬，所有人都可以看到就是不一樣，不一樣就是不一樣，所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告，用書面回復，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來進行詢答的委員是沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065022d5f44183abe693464761d5dfc4adca9373a247fb1bb1c447e5504a5f230c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:10:09 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金融海嘯已經把就是買那個我們的9月份的那個買方就是明顯的非常明顯就是下降了那這個就是說應該就是說是已經有那個就是說是讓市場他的一個熱度能夠把它冷卸下來"},{"start":381.036,"end":398.815,"text":"所以你也認為就是說央行要共同的就是說來負責管理這個房市啦不管是財政部還是那個金管會對所以目前起碼是走在一個對的路上是我們希望也就是朝這個方向走啦對啦"},{"start":401.537,"end":413.782,"text":"謝謝。我想總裁就是說這三類的人群其實他也得到了一個很大的一個豁免解決的方案。就是說不管是繼承還是第一次換屋需求就是確決還是已經簽約了"},{"start":415.743,"end":419.067,"text":"這是大家共同的一個努力的目標所以在這裡再請教就是"},{"start":436.286,"end":455.932,"text":"你覺得打炒房的力道可不可以更大?我想我們還是密切的注意它,滾動式的檢討。至於力道是不是可以再更大,我想我們檢討之後滾動式檢討再做決定。"},{"start":460.794,"end":479.964,"text":"提醒你,就是說其實如果我們從2022年的第二季再下一頁到2023的第一季其實我們從這張圖裡頭我們有看到了就是說你的第四波到第五波到第六波其實在第五波這一個信用管制裡頭它明顯是有降下來"},{"start":484.246,"end":497.935,"text":"可是他到2023年的那個就是等於是8月到2024年的那個Q2黃價又上去了為什麼大家就認為是被新清安害了那你個人的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":498.925,"end":526.273,"text":"我覺得應該也可以應該也就是說是有幾個因素新青安可能也是讓這個需求增加的一個因素之一那時候的經濟非常好又負輸上來那股市也表現得非常好我想這些都是因素那是不是好啦那你顯然就是說這樣子的一個看法其實"},{"start":527.56,"end":546.771,"text":"我們都認為總裁的看法事實上是非常精準可是有一點趨於保守就像美國現在已經進入降息的一個循環那央行的一個決策其實是大家關心的在這個關心的過程裡頭其實我們也覺得央行是兩難像美國啟動了降息的循環你要不要跟?"},{"start":549.472,"end":563.077,"text":"所以這個委員問得很好就是說我們也是在密切的注意他因為有些時候美國是大經濟體那台灣的情況又跟美國的情況有一點不大一樣"},{"start":565.259,"end":581.04,"text":"所以我們是不是一定要跟美國有些時候是第一個可能是不一定第二個我們的利率的政策也是要受到國際因素的影響"},{"start":582.802,"end":598.676,"text":"所以這個就是說必須要去權衡他所以我一直在講說你會兩難嘛你要配合國際的情勢的變化那這12月這個審慎你要評估你這個策略你看喔你這個在報告裡頭你寫得特別的清楚喔"},{"start":599.116,"end":604.702,"text":"你認為說從113年的7月29號那就是說對美金的那個匯率那我們從32.87那已經升值到32.168所以你報告裡頭寫得很清楚所以我們就一直在想說好那"},{"start":618.436,"end":636.079,"text":"你一直在強調就在強調說你一股在這裡要跟總裁做一個在探討就是說這個現有的現有的數據其實你是難以反映民眾的體感的通報就是說每一個人都感受得到就是說"},{"start":637.523,"end":638.784,"text":"所以呢也就是說委員呢"},{"start":667.182,"end":690.511,"text":"中央銀行所有全球的中央銀行它的衡量的就像我們中央台灣的中央銀行一樣的都是用2%的這個齁那是全部的項目放進去的那委員現在所強調的比較像說17項的那些民生用品還有就是說每個月至少購買一次的那些都是還是很高我講的就是現況的通貨所以就是說針對"},{"start":693.772,"end":715.84,"text":"是不是總裁針對近5年的消費者的物價指數的上漲跟近年的貨幣的一個政策的影響我希望在一個業內你提出一個報告、一個証詢好不好?光是我們這些退休的老人啦,他就是說你這個升息才能照顧到我們這些存款組好不好?好,謝謝,謝謝謝謝賴慧雲指詢接著我們請李燕秀委員指詢"},{"start":730.505,"end":730.646,"text":"說要有獎"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時10分）謝謝主席，請楊總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁早安。從去年7月開始，因應近年全球的通膨、房價的上揚還有升息的趨勢，所以我們推出了所謂的新青安貸款精進方案。可是關於這個精進措施，我們從左邊這張圖來看，以前是800，現在把貸款的額度調高為1,000萬；在利息補貼上，公股銀行減半碼，現在是加碼到1.5碼；貸款年限也是從30年調升到40年；寬限期是從3年到5年；實施的日期就是到2026年7月31號，應該是說截止的日期，在這裡要特別請教一下總裁，你知道新青安也可以團購嗎？這個情形你聽過嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：關於新青安……團購我當然也聽過……"],["賴委員惠員：你聽過？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過它可以團購，這個我就沒有聽過。"],["賴委員惠員：不是，它是團購，就是所有我們在新青安這一些案子裡頭，我們看到很明顯，這個團購是大家一起買，但其實是在炒房，這個情形非常的嚴重，其實我們從銀行的貸款資料裡可以很明顯的看出來，所以在這裡特別以臺北市今年第一期的各區房價，跟去年第一期相比的話，成長了5到8%，我們非常明顯看到房價被推高了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，來講我們臺南，臺南的漲幅更明顯了，我如果講北部人到南部來炒房的話，我從一些數據、一些模型裡，我們可以很簡單的去看到確實是這個樣子，南部在這一波裡，從去年7月到現在，房價越來越高，在比較偏山區或是偏海邊的本來還有800萬的房子，可是現在顯然所有的房價都上來了，都是1,200萬。所以在這裡我特別要請教總裁，你的第七波選擇性信用管制，一次來執行這六大措施的時候，這個最大動作的打炒房，你個人認為有沒有效？我看你剛才跟幾位委員的探討，你講這是要評估嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，是啦！委員指教的對啦！我們會做這樣的一個……當然我們報告裡面也有一些說明，至於會不會有成效，當然短時間裡我們看不出來，不過我要跟委員報告的是，在預期心理那麼強烈的情況之下，第一個，我們必須要把這個預期心理扭轉回來，這個是最重要的，如果你不扭轉回來，這樣後面所謂的成效就很難去說、很難去評估啦！也就是說，第一波是不是能夠讓它冷卻、把房地產市場的預期心理cool down下來，這個是最重要的，如果它能夠慢慢下來的話，那是最好。"],["賴委員惠員：當然，我們也希望是這樣子。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁我再請教你，依我們國家金融市場的規模，在這一次的信用性管制措施裡頭，你認為有多少資金受到限制，有多少錢，你認為呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼？"],["賴委員惠員：你認為呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：有多少錢……"],["賴委員惠員：算得出來嗎？你們央行有去評估嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們可以看出集中度，現在集中度是在37.5左右嘛？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛因為前面的郭委員也有談到這個37.5是不是會下來，因為他會覺得……現在新青安一年有6,000億，還有建築的融資，這個要下來恐怕還有包括30%的這個，要讓它下來恐怕不大容易，我個人也覺得在短期間不大容易，但是它會慢慢的調整。"],["賴委員惠員：郭委員之前的質詢跟你提示得非常好，你也認為它會定在30%，就下不來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：30%就下不來了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，會有一段時間啦！"],["賴委員惠員：你剛剛也有特別講到不明確，你覺得三個月後我們是不是會看到抑制房價有小小的效果？還是說要到明年底？你個人的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也是在講，就是要看看整個預期的心理是不是能夠扭轉啦！在這一段短時間之內是不是能夠扭轉回來，扭轉回來以後可能就會看到房價慢慢下跌的一個現象，軟著陸。"],["賴委員惠員：可是你的「金龍海嘯」……"],["楊總裁金龍：至於要幾個月，我不敢在這邊做預測。"],["賴委員惠員：那你的預估呢？你看你這個「金龍海嘯」已經把……9月份的買方非常明顯有下降。"],["楊總裁金龍：就是讓市場的熱度能夠把它冷卻下來啦！"],["賴委員惠員：所以你也認為央行要共同來負責管理房市啦！不管是財政部還是金管會……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，還有內政部、金管會。"],["賴委員惠員：對，所以目前起碼是走在一個對的路上、有效果的路上？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們希望就朝這個方向走啦！對啦！"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝啦！我想這三類人群其實也得到了一個很大的豁免解決的方案啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：不管是繼承還是第一次換屋需求須切結，還是已經簽約了即將申貸的這一些百姓，我們事實上就是應該要來做一個解決的方式，我們一定要補破網，我們要避免炒房重新再上演，這個是大家共同努力的一個目標，所以再請教總裁，你覺得打炒房的力道可不可以更大？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們還是密切的注意它，並滾動式的檢討，至於力道是不是可以再更大，我想我們檢討之後，我們會滾動式檢討再做決定。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，我在這裡再提醒你啦！如果我們從2022年的第二季到2023的第一季，其實從這張圖裡頭我們有看到你的第四波到第五波到第六波，其實在第五波這一個信用管制裡頭，它明顯有降下來。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：可是它到2023年8月到2024年的Q2，房價又上去了，為什麼？大家就認為是被新青安害的，你個人的看法是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得應該有幾個因素，新青安可能也是讓需求增加的因素之一，那時候的經濟非常好，又復甦上來，股市也表現得非常好，我想這些都是因素。"],["賴委員惠員：好啦！顯然就是說這樣子的一個看法，我們都認為總裁的看法事實上非常精準，可是有一點趨於保守，就像美國現在已經進入降息的一個循環，其實大家都關心央行的決策，在這個關心的過程裡頭，其實我們也覺得央行是兩難，像美國啟動了降息的循環，你要不要跟？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員問得很好，我們也是在密切的注意它，因為有些時候美國是大經濟體，那臺灣的情況又跟美國的情況有一點不大一樣。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！你也怕影響到出口……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們是不是一定要跟美國，這個有些時候是……第一個，可能是不一定，第二個，我們的利率政策也會受到國際因素的影響……"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！沒有錯。"],["楊總裁金龍：也是會受到國際因素，所以這個必須要去權衡它。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我一直在講你會兩難嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：你要配合國際情勢的變化，12月要審慎評估這個策略，你看，你在報告裡頭寫得特別的清楚，你認為從113年7月29號，對美金的匯率從32.87已經升值到32.168，你報告裡頭寫得很清楚。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我們就一直在想說，好，你一直在強調說你預估，本席在這裡要跟總裁做一個再探討，現有的數據其實難以反映民眾體感的通膨，就是每一個人都感受得到通貨膨脹非常的嚴重，可是在央行的很多的政策裡頭，顯然感受不出來，所以你是不是要考慮繼續升息才能解決呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，委員問的這個問題非常好，低所得者還有一般普羅大眾跟中央銀行衡量的CPI的情況不大一樣，也就是說全球的中央銀行，它衡量的就像我們臺灣的中央銀行一樣，都是用2%，把全部的項目放進去，委員現在所強調的比較像17項的那些民生用品，還有每個月至少購買一次的那些都還是很高。"],["賴委員惠員：對，我講的就是現況的通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：所以總裁，是不是針對近5年消費者物價指數的上漲跟近年貨幣政策的影響，我希望你在一個月內提出一個分析報告，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：不然，我們退休的老人就是說升息才能照顧到他們這些存款族，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員。","接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065c3093ecf2e24a4d160efc051a48f2135a9373a247fb1bb1c7e2aff7ea9671b775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:12:05 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因為我請你查一下那我再問你一下喔 凱米颱風的時候 總共的那個農損大概金額是多少大概是20 現在速報提出來是26億吧 有沒有資料給我阿部長是36億 那凱米颱風裡面有多少是新竹市的農損"},{"start":106.737,"end":129.058,"text":"你之後再跟我講一下我為什麼特別一開始提這個問題因為我發現我看到農損資料當中的時候其實都沒有新竹市的資料那有可能一個狀態是新竹市本來就不是農業大縣所以我看到你這邊提出來的一個那個農業部對於公糧收購的部分你提出了"},{"start":130.186,"end":155.929,"text":"一級二轉三加三這個部分你做了一個很清楚的一個比較我很認真的去看了一下可是我發現你裡面也是在玩數字遊戲那就把公糧收購講得很不堪啦那你剛剛也提到說全世界現在只剩台灣有公糧收購如果農業部真的覺得公糧收購這麼不應該的時候就取消嘛農業部有這個權責去做這個事情可是目前在做的時候呢整個立法院已經通過"},{"start":158.011,"end":178.385,"text":"113席委員會通過這個組決議的時候呢然後農業部完全不甩然後在這裡面把這個公糧收購講得很差啊就是說講到說整個會讓糧價短多長空然後會造成那個百米價格上漲造成民生衝擊民生消費然後講到說不利到"},{"start":179.045,"end":179.465,"text":"部長我讓你看一個東西"},{"start":211.087,"end":227.226,"text":"你知道那個對地綠色環境給付計畫你知道這個計畫吧對不對這個計畫我想請教一下部長他一開始裡面也有一個很大的一個目標就是希望能夠"},{"start":229.059,"end":249.54,"text":"來解決就是轉更的問題減少種植保價收購稻米的數量這是當時這個計畫推出來的時候很重要的一個目標我想請問一下部長第一期的時候總共預算多少錢這幾戶整個的話是totally大概是100億"},{"start":253.574,"end":272.42,"text":"對地綠色環境給付計畫它的整個經費來源是來自於農產品受進口損害救助基金一百億我不知道你的數字從哪裡我今天問了幾個數字部長你都沒有給我一個很清楚的數字我看到第一期從107年到110年整個預算基本是381.72億"},{"start":278.939,"end":279.561,"text":"你怎麼會只講這100億那另外280億到哪裡去"},{"start":285.521,"end":305.665,"text":"107到110大概是4年期的計畫4年的期的計畫那我剛剛說的大概大概是100億左右因為一年100億左右大概一年100億左右一年100億左右嘛齁第二期當中所以111年到114年目前還在第二期當中的時候總共是469.88億一年超過100億一年超過100億嘛對不對還有一個環境基本給付包括環境基本給付的部分理解齁一年超過100億嘛齁然後"},{"start":314.332,"end":339.039,"text":"部長你知道嗎在整個對地綠色環境給付計畫裡面平均每年我先把它算出來到目前為止平均每年有74.87億元獎勵金用在鼓勵轉作用在鼓勵轉作這個就是這一次我們在講公糧收購很重要的一個部分你提到一級二轉3加3這個裡面很大一部分就是希望就是"},{"start":340.728,"end":355.376,"text":"道米耕作的範圍不要太大然後我們看一下從106年到112年公糧到股那個收購的數量跟決算經費收購的量在這個地方收購量106、107、108、109持續的上漲可是我們從107年開始的時候這個對地綠色環境給付計畫就開始進行了"},{"start":365.862,"end":366.363,"text":"我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":388.504,"end":405.958,"text":"一百年開始我們推的四選三的部分就是四級稻作種三期所以我們盡量的把那個稻作面積往下降的時候所以那個公糧收購數量才會往下降是 理由之一 所以我要講一下狀態就是以我們現在每一年還有74億 75億用在"},{"start":410.602,"end":418.766,"text":"對地綠色環境給付這個地方要轉做這個部分坦白說我看到這個部分按照你們之前提出來的預算"},{"start":420.97,"end":441.763,"text":"每公斤上漲5塊錢的預算大概只增加14.46億你們原本提出來預算本來就有一個公糧收購預算再加14.46億就可以達到就是112年的標準如果按照109年的高標準來說的時候是增加27.30億其實坦白說對於整個"},{"start":443.044,"end":451.8,"text":"明年你們所提出來的總預算當中的時候增加器都非常的有限所以我覺得感覺上"},{"start":453.462,"end":481.148,"text":"公糧收購價格 農業部不願意提高我覺得已經不是很直接是一個農業上面的問題而變成一個政治上的問題所以剛剛為什麼很多委員提到說整個立法院裡面113席委員通過的一個決議你們都不願意遵守我跟委員報告我們我們剛才您所提的一些包括環境基本幾乎對地預設幾乎其實都是在希望水稻的面積不要增加"},{"start":482.244,"end":482.864,"text":"部長你提這個部分其實坦白說我是能夠理解聽得進去的"},{"start":500.149,"end":501.53,"text":"新竹的部分我們有查到大概二十幾萬各十百千萬次"},{"start":528.234,"end":534.656,"text":"這個部分你之後再來跟我報告因為我看到所有資料當中我只是要提高提出一個觀點就是說我們在看這個預算我們有一個客觀的標準在看坦白說我沒有農民選民的一個壓力"},{"start":548.001,"end":561.475,"text":"所以我在看這個部分我聽得進去你講的東西可是我也看到你提出不合理的狀態你在玩數字遊戲對於整個公糧收購的部分的時候你就是打死不願意去做提出很多的理由可是對我來說我把這個"},{"start":564.393,"end":580.8,"text":"對綠對地綠色環境幾乎計畫拿來做個比較你會發現有怎麼樣的不合理如果說部長這邊要做更多的說明就是之後再到本辦公室來做一個細部我會再跟委員安排一個時間但我們認為立法院通過的決議行政部門一定要尊重一定要遵守"},{"start":581.8,"end":581.9,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":315,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時12分）謝謝主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。公糧收購本來是一個對農民有益，然後對於臺灣糧食安全有一個保障的狀態，結果現在處理成感覺好像變成一個政治問題了。部長，我先簡單問你一下，受山陀兒颱風的影響，到目前為止有多少的農損？"],["陳部長駿季：山陀兒颱風到目前，速報的方式大概是五億五、五億六左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：跟你更新一下，到10月15號的時候大概已經有6.3億的農損，裡面有多少是新竹市的？"],["陳部長駿季：新竹市的大概兩千多萬吧。"],["鄭委員正鈐：新竹市兩千多萬喔？我從這個數字當中是沒有看到，新竹市有兩千多萬，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：這次山陀兒颱風比較受到影響的民眾是高雄、屏東……"],["鄭委員正鈐：新竹市有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我記得比較少啦。"],["鄭委員正鈐：新竹市是多少？金額多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我可能會後再提供，我請他們查一下。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。我再問你一下，凱米颱風的時候，總共的農損金額大概是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：現在速報提出來是26億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，是36億。凱米颱風裡面有多少是新竹市的農損？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我可能還要再查。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，你之後再跟我講一下。我為什麼特別一開始提這個問題，因為我發現我看到的農損資料其實都沒有新竹市的資料，有可能的狀態是新竹市本來就不是農業大縣，所以我看到農業部對於公糧收購的部分，你提出了「1集、2轉、3加3」的這個部分，你做了一個很清楚的比較，我很認真地去看了一下，可是我發現你裡面也是在玩數字遊戲，就把公糧收購講得很不堪啦，你剛剛也提到全世界現在只剩臺灣有公糧收購，如果農業部真的覺得公糧收購這麼不應該的話，就取消嘛！農業部有權責去做這個事情，可是整個立法院、113席委員都已經通過這個主決議，然後農業部完全不甩，然後在這裡面把公糧收購講得很差啊，講到整個會讓糧價短多長空，還會造成白米價格上漲，衝擊民生消費，然後還講到不利稻米產業發展，對於已轉雜糧旱作農地恐會恢復稻種，影響糧食安全及水資源分配，這都是你講的，針對公糧收購所產生的不利影響，你講的都一定有道理，我們在做研究一定也都會這樣子，那你提到「1集、2轉、3加3」只要16.5億元就可以解決這麼多的問題，我真的是覺得很疑惑啦！","部長，我讓你看一個東西，你知道對地綠色環境給付計畫，你知道這個計畫吧，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個計畫我想請教一下部長，這個一開始裡面也有一個很大的目標，就是希望能夠解決轉耕的問題，減少種植保價收購稻米的數量，這是當時這個計畫推出來時很重要的一個目標，我想請問一下部長，第一期總共預算多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：整個預算給付totally大概是100億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：100億？"],["陳部長駿季：totally，因為對地綠色環境給付有不同的層次。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對地綠色環境給付計畫的整個經費來源是來自於農產品受進口損害救助基金，100億，我不知道你的數字從哪裡來？我今天問了幾個數字，部長，你都沒有給我一個很清楚的數字，我看到第一期從107年到110年，整個預算經費是381.72億耶，你怎麼會講只有100億？另外281億到哪裡去？"],["陳部長駿季：107到110是四年期的計畫，我剛剛說的大概是100億左右……"],["鄭委員正鈐：一年100億左右，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：大概一年100億左右，對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：一年100億左右嘛。第二期是從111年到114年，目前還在第二期當中，總共是469.88億，一年超過100億。"],["陳部長駿季：也是四年的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：一年超過100億嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：那還有一個環境基本給付，包括環境基本給付的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，一年超過100億。部長，你知道嗎？在整個對地綠色環境給付計畫裡面，我去把它算出來喔！到目前為止平均每年有74.87億元獎勵金用在鼓勵轉作，這就是這次我們在講公糧收購很重要的一個部分，你提到「1集、2轉、3加3」，這裡面很大一部分就是希望稻米耕作的範圍不要太大。然後我們看一下，從106年到112年，公糧稻穀保價收購數量跟決算經費，收購的量在這個地方，106年、107年、108年、109年，持續地上漲，可是從107年開始，對地綠色環境給付計畫就開始進行了，每年投入了74億、75億元在做轉作這個部分，效果顯然有限嘛；在110年的時候收購數量跟收購價格往下down的原因，110年、111年、112年都是因為缺水停灌這個原因，所以我要……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，不只，我跟委員報告，110年開始，我們推了四選三的部分，就是四期稻作種三期，所以我們儘量的把稻作面積往下down……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這是理由之一嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：所以它的公糧收購數量才會往下降。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，理由之一。所以我要講一下這個狀態，就是以我們現在每一年還有74億、75億用在對地綠色環境給付要轉作的這個部分，坦白說，我看到這個部分，按照你們之前提出來的預算，每公斤上漲5塊錢的預算，大概只增加14.46億，用你們原本提出來的預算，本來就有一個公糧收購預算，再加14.46億就可以達到112年的標準，如果按照109年的高標準來說是增加27.3億，其實坦白說，對於明年你們所提出來的總預算當中，增加其實都非常有限。所以農業部不願意提高公糧收購價格，我覺得已經不是很直接是農業上的問題，而變成一個政治上的問題，所以剛剛為什麼很多委員提到整個立法院113席委員通過的決議，你們都不願意遵守。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，剛才您所舉例的一些，包括環境基本給付、對地綠色給付，其實都是在希望水稻的面積不要增加，當我們用很多的力量想辦法要去壓低水稻的面積，另一方面如果提高公糧價格，就會造成我過往所有投入的效果都不見了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，你提這個部分，其實坦白說我是能夠理解、聽得進去的，可是我覺得以目前整個預算，公糧收購價格的預算跟我們看到花在農業部其他領域的預算，我覺得是不合理的，所以我剛剛為什麼一開始會提到新竹市相關跟農業有關的農損資料，這個部分我只是要跟你講，我在看這個數字的時候相對客觀……"],["陳部長駿季：新竹的部分，我們有查到大概是二十幾萬，大概二十一萬三千多是其他產業的損失。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！這個部分你之後再來跟我報告，因為我看到所有資料當中，我只是要提出一個觀點，我們在看這個預算，我們有一個客觀的標準在看，坦白說，我沒有農民選民的壓力，所以我在看這個部分，我聽得進去你講的東西，可是我也看到你提出不合理的狀態，你在玩數字遊戲，對於整個公糧收購的部分，你就是打死不願意去做，提出很多理由，可是對我來說，我把對地綠色環境給付計畫拿來做個比較，你就會發現有怎麼樣的不合理，如果部長這邊要做更多的說明，就是之後再到本席辦公室來做一個細部的溝通，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我會再跟委員安排、約一個時間。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們認為立法院通過的決議，行政部門一定要尊重、一定要遵守，依法行政是最簡單的一個邏輯，我們希望行政部門不要把所有的問題，包括對於農民的保障，都把它變成一個政治議題在做處理，我覺得這樣對整個臺灣的發展是不利的，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：是，好，謝謝。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：我們接下來請呂玉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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我們來了解對 反而是那個比較高齡的或者是比較低齡的工作的那個比例比較高所以會發生意外也是有它的還有就是我們大部分是從事營建、工程業、製造業及住宿餐禮可是住宿餐禮這個部分很像都是兼職的工作所以我們幾乎都是臨時性的工作這個部分可能要在它的就業的或者是說它的"},{"start":279.815,"end":303.182,"text":"我們在實施我們的數位課程不是我們在計劃的時候是不是應該能夠提升他們的一些專業領域不是永遠都是在看門或是洗盤子或是這些以後可以受到比較好的教育或者說受訓以後可以變成一個領台的或是櫃台人員或者是成為一個領導階層是不是不是永遠都是做那些比較低階層的"},{"start":304.522,"end":308.564,"text":"委員我們其實都有幫部落還有地方政府合作為原住民開設這種執訓的比較專業技能的專班在8月1號我看到一個新聞是取消喬外森從事白領專機工作"},{"start":325.311,"end":340.318,"text":"以後他們也可以從事旅宿業這方面清潔、訂房接待、所屬餐廳、外廠工作這些工作就跟原住民的工作會重疊所以我就說是不是能夠保障或者說有一些比例"},{"start":341.619,"end":357.626,"text":"有這個比例?有,我們有針對原民有保障比例喔是是是好,最後一個就是我們目前常常聽到民族民的高山巷島有一些工作上的一些危險那我想說這些人都沒有人在關心他們我先說他們當然"},{"start":358.786,"end":359.286,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":379.833,"end":383.614,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益?」"},{"start":395.598,"end":419.593,"text":"救難工作的時候會叫他們去結果沒有給他們任何一毛錢那就是義務性的所以這個部分是不是也應該說納入說以後大家救難的時候第一個想到他們可是卻沒有相對的收入跟保障給他們第三個就是我們上次有講到在勞動環境部的時候山上很多垃圾還有比如說我們去看有沒有人在盜採那些珍貴的木材"},{"start":421.393,"end":438.626,"text":"這些人高山協作工作他不是每天都有工作嗎所以這些人就可以把他們聘用為比如說我們農業部的啦或者是我們環境部的這些相關的這些高山的工作因為平常你不是那麼容易到達只有他們可以去所以這些人無論他的工作的一些"},{"start":439.727,"end":463.068,"text":"我們所謂的他的合約或是他的未來的工作的那個保障啊比如說的投保的這個部分啊我想都沒有人在幫他們想辦法所以想說勞動部其實可以優先來去想說這些高三協助員他們未來工作的一個取向因為會越來越多人從事高三的活動嘛而且他們確實也是背負了那麼多的一個所謂的"},{"start":464.289,"end":482.778,"text":"很重要的工作,因為目前他有一個高山工作執行是希望他們不要背超過30公斤這個30公斤也不是很合理,因為他一定是先從重的開始,因為他每天的消耗一定會有一定是從50公斤開始背背背,然後下山的時候就變成大概十幾公斤所以這個高山工作執行就是沒有去實際參與的人去訂的"},{"start":484.779,"end":495.952,"text":"一定是你要去看他實際...是我們來檢討我們來檢討好不好因為我們有一個職業安全衛生的高山協同指引可能裡面有不合時宜的部分我們來檢討實際從事這個工作的主任請來請他們一起討論謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝盧縣醫委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時4分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長早。部長，你先回想一下，每年工傷死亡的人數大概是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：300左右。"],["盧委員縣一：對，一年大概320，我看去年是320。","凱米颱風過後，我們有兩個族人在都市因為工作而死亡，我先跟你報告，有一個是9月24日在苗栗泰安鄉工作的時候，被一噸重的大石掉下來打中，後來被帶回我們南投信義鄉。他是一個沒有結婚，家裡也沒有父母親，只有兄弟姐妹的原住民青年。我要講的問題最主要是，後來發現他沒有投保。每次颱風都會發生這些問題，工會為此有在努力，後來跟雇主達成協商，可能是賠180萬。我剛剛講了，因為他的身分的關係，在職災保險的申請當中並沒有受益者，因為他沒有父母親了，也沒有結婚，只有兄弟姐妹，所以一定是兄弟姐妹幫他安葬，可是這些費用就沒有人可以申請到。這個部分可能要請部長看看怎麼處理。"],["何部長佩珊：勞保的單身者死亡後的給付問題？"],["盧委員縣一：對，沒錯。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個問題我很重視，確實也有很多工會朋友在跟我反映。"],["盧委員縣一：這是9月24號發生的，接下來還有一個是在10月1日颱風來襲的時候加班，結果墜落了，這個雇主很有良心，先賠了500萬（這是雇主自己拿出來的），然後工地險有200萬，團體意外險200萬，一共拿了900萬，也就是說，還沒有加上勞保的給付，就已經拿到900萬。相較於另外那位的180萬，實在是十萬八千里。我的意思是說，你要知道這個來龍去脈跟相關的比較和差距，因為同樣是族人失去生命，不要說族人啦，國人失去生命，不同的家庭得到的待遇有如天壤之別！","另外一個是目前還在跟雇主協商的，0403地震發生時，他在臺中梨山工作，結果石頭掉下來砸到他，他住了一段時間的加護病房之後過世了，這個案例目前一毛錢都沒有領到，還在跟雇主協商，最近要召開協調會，還要找我過去。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員，辛苦了。"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是，像這種勞工死亡的案例還是希望勞動部可以主動積極地介入，不然有些人是180萬，有人是900萬，有人是完全沒有領到。大家同樣生活在臺灣這塊土地上面，因為在不同地區工作，遭受這樣不平等的待遇，我是覺得應該儘量去避免，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。委員，其實職災保險現在比較普遍，比起勞保，大家保得更多；我們來宣傳一下這方面的權益。"],["盧委員縣一：希望你們能更全面地去瞭解一下個案的特殊性，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["盧委員縣一：接下來要從112年原住民就業狀況調查來看我們原住民的勞動參與率，我們先看一下，15到24歲還有55歲以上原住民的勞動參與率反而比一般民眾還要高，也就是說，真正需要工作的25歲到54歲這群人的工作機會是比全國民眾低的，所以這個部分可能要去想辦法來解決，因為25歲到54歲正值需要工作的青壯年也是比較有體力的時候，他的勞動參與率卻比較低，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來瞭解。"],["盧委員縣一：反而是比較高齡或者是比較低齡的勞動參與率比較高，所以會發生意外也是有它的道理。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["盧委員縣一：還有就是我們大部分從事營建工程業、製造業、住宿及餐飲業，可是住宿及餐飲業好像都是part time的工作。因為我們幾乎都是從事臨時性的工作，針對這個部分，勞動部在計畫的時候是不是應該提升他們的專業領域，而不是永遠都在看門、洗盤子等等，如果他們可以受到較好的教育，或者是說受訓以後可以變成領檯或櫃檯人員，甚至成為領導階層，不是永遠都在做那些比較低階的工作。我認為部長應該想辦法幫原住民青年解決這方面的問題，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，委員，我們其實都有跟部落和地方政府合作，為原住民開設這種比較專業技能的職訓專班。"],["盧委員縣一：8月1日我看到一則新聞說要取消僑外生從事白領專技工作評點配額上限，以後他們也可以從事旅宿業清潔、訂房、接待、所屬餐廳外場工作，這些工作就會跟我們原住民的工作重疊，所以是不是能夠比如說保障或者是有一些比例……"],["何部長佩珊：有設比例。有！我們有針對原民保障比例喔！是、是、是。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一個就是，我們目前常常聽到有關原住民高山嚮導工作的危險性，我的想法是，都沒有人在關心這些人。我要先說，他們的收入可能相對比較高，一天有4,500到5,000，可是常常會被山友臨時取消出團，或者是因為颱風而無法出團，然後就會發生沒有履約的事情，所以是不是應該有一個所謂的高山協作員的簽約格式？勞動部是不是可以幫他們想辦法解決？第二個是他們這些工作比較沒有人願意幫他們保險，所以他們在從事這些工作會相對沒有安全感，還有就是救難工作的時候會叫他們去，結果卻沒有給他們任何一毛錢，好像那就是義務性的，所以這個部分是不是也應該納入？換句話說，要救難的時候第一個想到他們，可是卻沒有給他們相對的收入和保障。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["盧委員縣一：第三個是我上次質詢環境部的時候有講到，山上很多垃圾，還有比如說我們要去看有沒有人在盜採珍貴的木材，而這些從事高山協作工作的人並不是每天都有工作，所以就可以把這些人聘為農業部或者是環境部的高山工作人員，因為那些地方平常也不是那麼容易到達，只有他們可以去，所以這些人無論是工作合約或者是未來工作的保障，比如說他投保的部分等等，都沒有人在幫他們想辦法，所以我想說勞動部其實可以優先來去想這些高山協作員未來工作的一個取向，因為會越來越多人從事高山的活動，而且他們確實也是揹負了那麼多，這是很重要的工作啦，目前有一個高山工作指引是希望他們的揹負重量不要超過30公斤，這個30公斤也不是很合理，因為他們一定是先從重的開始，然後每天的消耗一定會有嘛，一定是從50公斤開始揹揹揹，然後下山的時候就變成大概十幾公斤嘛，所以這個高山工作指引就是沒有實際參與的人去訂的，你要去看他們實際……"],["何部長佩珊：是，這個我們來檢討，因為我們有一個職業安全衛生的高山協作指引，可能裡面有不合時宜的部分，我們來檢討。"],["盧委員縣一：好，請把實際從事這個工作的族人請來，請他們一起討論。謝謝部長。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員發言。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065727c20c6893b3b78bc7d127954dabfa1a9373a247fb1bb1cf1f56eb5c34a23a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:52:32 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塊美容美髮大概是三萬五千八百零九塊製造業大概是四萬四千一百四十三塊那同時加班工時最長的行業剛好也是製造業就是我們的製造業"},{"start":267.566,"end":294.882,"text":"這代表經常性薪資較低的這個製造業其實有這個願意加班的或者是實質上工時就是比較長的勞工群體,對嗎?是吧?部長是喔是,對不對應該是這樣子的對,所以其實喔部長我們剛剛說了這麼多我都知道我希望我們國家的每位勞工都不需要加班也不想加班了解但事實上我們卻不能忽略的確有一個藍領的這種製造業的勞工族群他們需要加班"},{"start":296.462,"end":323.11,"text":"但是部長就忽略他們的需求所以我這邊希望請部長正視這個需求的存在這個群體的存在但是他們需要多賺錢但是卻還被多課稅好這個部分那麼說到底就部長立場是不希望勞工加那麼多班的話對不對剛剛如果說完全不希望他們加那麼多班的話那何不直接乾脆推動修法就是讓他們整個下線這樣直接禁止超過每月46個小時的加班不要開啟任何例外"},{"start":324.259,"end":343.845,"text":"這樣的話可能造成的問題也很大啦當然是委員是這樣嘛是是是因為這個有時候勞工確實他也有想要加班的意願因為想要多賺錢這個也是可以理解的然後我們也必須去體諒同情這種狀況那包括在企業裡面他有時候有"},{"start":344.805,"end":371.968,"text":"這樣的需求對嘛部長所以說我們剛剛討論到現在你也講出一個實話嘛就是說我們知道超過這46小時的是有存在的然後也有兩大重點七個就是企業客觀有這個需要的存在第二個是這個勞工有這樣的需要的存在那第三個就是勞資雙方必須同意吧對不對所以我覺得當初你說的你上次你昨天說的這樣可能會變相鼓勵他們加班我覺得這應該不應該是這樣考量的對吧這是"},{"start":373.248,"end":386.554,"text":"對啦其實並不是說變相鼓勵他們加班我知道您的想法那我們來這個應該要跟財政部商量沒關係我繼續再講下去我把這個數據講清楚給你聽希望您有更有底氣的去講這件事情"},{"start":388.115,"end":408.166,"text":"根據這個2023年的新世代人才調查發現18到35歲在職人士近兩成有兼職收入其中六成多是跨領域兼職大多從事設計、教學和業務但是另外一個調查也發現過半新鮮人有這個意願從事兼職主要原因是想多賺錢然後正職收入太少"},{"start":408.871,"end":429.725,"text":"那所以剛剛看到就是不只是我們蘭嶺製造業想要賺錢社會新鮮人與白嶺上班族也想要多賺錢那我想部長也是很認真我們都是我想大家都很努力一定是責任制領同樣的法定的這個薪水的情況之下都努力完成任務但是我想剛剛重申有廣大勞工有這個加班的需求"},{"start":430.805,"end":455.83,"text":"那事實上根據112年你們這個勞工生活及就業狀況調查報告曾經加班超過46個小時的人口人數將近3%那換算下來部長知道多少嗎?大約大約是33萬的勞工所以我要跟部長講這是真實確實存在的一群人那麼我想部長身為我們臺灣勞工的大家長"},{"start":458.444,"end":466.383,"text":"我們是不是可以答應本席是不是可以代表勞工們去跟財政部爭取這46小時加班後這個免稅的範圍"},{"start":468.103,"end":493.531,"text":"我們來跟財政部來演繹看看好嗎?所以部長我整個數據這樣邏輯順下來你應該是可以充分理解為什麼我提這件事情吧?我瞭解我瞭解那是不是也可以拜託您去幫忙全力的爭取喔?所以感謝我們的部長為勞工們謀福利我們來跟財政部討論看看好嗎?但另外我要再提一個有關這個伙食費的免稅額度是否也可以一併爭取喔?"},{"start":494.771,"end":515.693,"text":"畢竟現在外食也越來越貴了那我想大家深有同感嘛同歐膨脹所以公司如果願意體諒勞工提供更好的福利我覺得我們也應該鼓勵所以我也想要爭取說部長是不是也可以一併的把這個伙食費的免稅額可以從每個月2400可不可以跟他們討論到增加到3000想說部長有沒有辦法來幫他們一併的反應"},{"start":518.317,"end":537.289,"text":"好,我們這個免稅額、伙食費的部分了解這是我另外一題,沒有在簡報上對,我們來一起來反映看看好不好,包括那個加班費嘛,是不是主要是那個加班費的免稅額的範圍因為有這個3%,大概30幾萬人就是有這個存在的需求"},{"start":541.727,"end":570.191,"text":"這如果合併在所得稅裡面因為又會牽涉到整個所得稅的調整財政部恐怕沒關係部長你只要你只要幫他們發聲努力去謀取這個福利因為我覺得他其實確實有必要的因為我剛剛這些數據都已經呈現給您看如果你需要我們本期也可以再把這個整理一份給您我覺得這是可以去跟財政部說的因為這批人甚至是有這個需求的存在好不好我也把數據都整理出來好另外喔"},{"start":571.161,"end":572.804,"text":"我要再加問一個這個低薪現象"},{"start":574.079,"end":586.122,"text":"我們的主計處昨天發布1至8月的薪資統計總薪資平均數成長是4.27%創10年最高實質經常性的薪資平均也連續5個月成長增幅為4年來最高實質總薪資增加的比例是1.92%也是近6年最高然後說打敗通膨部長對這樣的現象是不是覺得勞工之福"},{"start":603.288,"end":623.599,"text":"委員我們的實質經常性薪資真的是成長的而且包括像餐飲現在也創新高餐飲現在很低那麼他現在已經到達37,000這樣的水平好沒錯事實上部長但是我還是要提醒你這個要持續關注我這個不是不要高興的太早加薪追不上通膨其實才是常態"},{"start":625.701,"end":639.799,"text":"2022年以後這個經濟成長較為平穩加上CPI的增長仍高居不下其實導致2023年實質性的經常性的這個薪資跟實質性的薪資的增長全部都是負成長那其中"},{"start":641.04,"end":659.286,"text":"實質性的薪資更為2017年以來持續的負增長年增率是負1.04%那受僱的這些員工其實經常性薪資已經連續三年的負成長所以你只用今年這個一到八月看其實只是一小段那還有一個重點是什麼"},{"start":660.146,"end":673.005,"text":"其實就是昨天開始漲電價就算經濟部保守的評估說CPI值增加0.03%但我想還是會有一大票的預防性的漲價的部分所以"},{"start":677.13,"end":692.663,"text":"這個部分我要提醒我們的部長是不是可以持續的關注那甚至是去調查其實之前我們這個會期的上半年也有通過所謂的中小企業發展條例等等的是鼓勵企業分享這個加薪給勞工嘛 對不對"},{"start":693.444,"end":710.095,"text":"好那我也想要提醒部長請你們持續追蹤看這件事情的成效究竟有沒有真正的展現出來好不好那情況到年底的時候尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時52分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。部長，根據就業服務法第五十五條規定，申請家庭看護或家事移工，而雇主是身心障礙者時，也需要繳納就業安定費，一般家庭大概每月需要繳交2,000元，中低及低收入戶則是免繳，所以這個部分也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅。但是依照CRPD公約的精神以及障礙平權的觀點，國家有責任去彌補障礙者和常人之間的落差，所以當國家無法彌補這個落差，這些障礙者自力救濟聘僱移工的時候，卻反而被國家收障礙稅，部長，你覺得合理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為這牽涉到身心障礙者本身，如果他是中低收的話當然也是免繳的。"],["廖委員偉翔：我現在就是針對身心障礙者，不用扯到中低收。"],["何部長佩珊：你的意思是只要是身心障礙者，你覺得應該都免繳？"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["何部長佩珊：可是因為這個牽涉到……"],["廖委員偉翔：簡單講就是因為繳費是依據家庭收入整體去看，障礙者本身就是比較弱勢，即便在家庭中也是。"],["何部長佩珊：他有時候未必是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你說的只是經濟上，但是我們說的是CRPD公約的精神以及障礙平權的角度，即便在家庭中也是，然就業服務法第五十五條規定，雇主聘僱外國人從事第四十六條第一項第八款至第十款規定之工作，應向中央主管機關設置之就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費。但我想要跟部長報告的是，法條其實並沒有明定這個金額，所以有沒有可能透過修正子法或是以函釋的方式，讓申請者為障礙者時可以得予免繳，或是減少繳納每月2,000元的就業安定費？"],["何部長佩珊：針對身心障礙者嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來評估。"],["廖委員偉翔：是不是可以請你們評估後將評估的結果跟我說？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：送到本席服務處。"],["何部長佩珊：我們可能也要跟衛福部一起。"],["廖委員偉翔：請你們一併評估，因為這應該是一個可以幫助身心障礙者福利的部分，希望我們的部長可以努力為他們爭取福利。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：第二個，我昨天有跟部長討論到有關於加班46小時就不能免稅的部分，我總覺得這個部分沒有講得很清楚，我要再跟你請教一下，部長昨天的回答是會有這樣的加班費免稅額上限，是希望不要鼓勵加班太超過這個程度，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是有一點這樣子的目的。"],["廖委員偉翔：有一點，對不對？所以我可以這樣理解，沒錯嘛，對不對？事實上我也知道，當然我也不希望，我們都不希望。根據勞基法第三十二條規定，雇主徵得勞工同意得延長工作時間，每個月延長工作時間的總時數不得超過46個小時；但是有個但書──但如遇天災、事變或者是突發狀況有例外規定。雇主經工會或經勞資會議同意後，延長工作時間得採三個月總量控制，但一個月不得超過54個小時，每三個月不得超過138個小時。簡單來說，加班超過46個小時的情況是會發生的，且是需要勞資雙方同意的，在這個前提之下，我是不是可以理解為部長還是不太願意看到超過46小時的加班情況存在？"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然是希望能夠不要超過這樣法定的加班時數。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你就是不希望勞工加班這麼多，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：根據主計處統計，臺灣薪資前三低的行業，第一個是住宿及餐飲業，大概是3萬4,711元；美容美髮大概是3萬5,809元；製造業大概是4萬4,143元，同時加班工時最長的行業剛好也是製造業，這代表經常性薪資較低的製造業，其實是願意加班或實質上工時比較長的勞工群體，部長，對嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，應該是這樣子。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，其實我們剛剛說了這麼多，我都知道，我也希望國家每位勞工都不需要加班，也不想加班，事實上，我們不能忽略的確有一個藍領製造業的勞工族群需要加班，但是部長卻忽略他們的需求，所以我要請部長正視這個需求的存在、這個群體的存在，他們需要多賺錢，但是卻還被多課稅。說到底部長立場是不希望勞工加那麼多班的話，如果你完全不希望他們加那麼多班的話，何不直接乾脆推動修法，將規定下修直接禁止超過每月46個小時加班工時，不要開啟任何例外？"],["何部長佩珊：這樣的話可能造成的問題也很大。"],["廖委員偉翔：也很大，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：當然是，因為有時候勞工確實也有想要加班的意願，因為想要多賺錢，這個也是可以理解的，我們也必須去體諒、同情這種狀況，包括在企業裡面有時候也有這樣的需求。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，所以我們從剛剛的討論到現在，你也講出一個實話，我們都知道超過46小時的情況是存在的，有兩大重點，第一個，企業客觀有這個需要的存在。第二個，勞工也有這樣的需要存在。第三個，就是勞資雙方必須同意，你昨天說這樣可能會變相鼓勵他們加班，我覺得不應該是這樣考量的，對吧？"],["何部長佩珊：對啦！其實並不是變相鼓勵他們加班，委員，我知道你的想法，因為這還要跟財政部商量。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，我繼續再講下去，我把這個數據講清楚給你聽，希望你更有底氣去講這件事情。根據2023年新世代人才調查發現，18到35歲在職人士近兩成有兼職收入，其中六成多是跨領域兼職，大多從事設計、教學和業務；另外一個調查也發現，過半新鮮人有意願從事兼職，主要原因是想多賺錢，正職收入太少。剛剛看到不只是藍領製造業想要賺錢，社會新鮮人與白領上班族也想要多賺錢，我想部長也是很認真，大家都很努力，一定是責任制，在領同樣的法定薪水情況之下，都很努力完成任務，但是我剛剛重申的有廣大勞工有加班需求。事實上，根據112年勞工生活及就業狀況調查報告，曾經加班超過46個小時的人口人數將近3%，換算下來，部長知道大約多少嗎？大約是33萬勞工。所以我要跟部長講的是，這是真實、確實存在的一群人，部長身為臺灣勞工的大家長，是不是可以答應本席代表勞工們去跟財政部爭取這46小時加班工時免稅的範圍？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來跟財政部研議看看，好嗎？我們來跟它反映。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我把整個數據的邏輯順下來，你應該是可以充分理解，為什麼我提這件事情吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：是不是也可以拜託部長去幫忙全力的爭取，感謝我們的部長為勞工們謀福利。"],["何部長佩珊：我們來跟財政部討論看看，好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。另外，我要再提一個，有關伙食費的免稅額度是否也可以一併爭取？畢竟現在外食也越來越貴，我想大家對通貨膨脹都深有同感，公司如果願意體諒勞工提供更好的福利，我覺得我們也應該鼓勵，所以我也想要替他們爭取，部長是不是也可以一併跟他們討論，把伙食費的免稅額從每個月2,400元增加到3,000元，部長有沒有辦法幫他們一併反映？"],["何部長佩珊：好，伙食費免稅額度，我瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是我另外提的，沒有在簡報上。"],["何部長佩珊：我們一起來反映看看，好不好？包括加班費。"],["廖委員偉翔：主要是加班費免稅額的範圍，因為有3%，大概三十幾萬人有這個需求存在。"],["何部長佩珊：因為這個會合併在所得稅裡面，又會牽涉到整個所得稅的調整，財政部恐怕……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係！部長，你只要幫他們發聲，努力去謀取這個福利。"],["何部長佩珊：不過我們會去跟它反映。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為我覺得這確實是有必要的，我剛剛已經把這些數據都呈現給你看，如果你有需要的話，本席也可以整理一份給你，我覺得這是可以去跟財政部說的，因為這批人真的是有這個需求存在。好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["廖委員偉翔：我也把數據都整理出來了。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外我要加問一個有關低薪現象的問題。主計總處昨天發布1至8月的薪資統計，總薪資平均數成長4.27%，創10年最高，實質經常性薪資平均數也連續5個月成長，增幅為4年來最高，實質總薪資增長的比例是1.92%，為近6年最高，還說打敗通膨。對於這樣的現象，部長是否覺得是勞工之福？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們的實質經常性薪資真的是成長了，而且包括像餐飲現在也創新高，餐飲向來很低，他們現在已經到達3萬7這樣的水平，比……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯！但是部長，我還是要提醒你要持續關注，不要高興得太早。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：加薪追不上通膨其實才是常態。2022年以後經濟成長較為平穩，加上CPI的增長跟居高不下，其實導致2023年經常性薪資跟實質性薪資全部都是負成長，其中實質性薪資2017年以來更是持續負成長，年增率是-1.04%，受僱員工其實經常性薪資已經連續3年負成長，所以你只用今年1到8月來看，其實只是一小段。還有一個重點是什麼？其實就是昨天開始漲電價，就算經濟部保守評估說CPI只增長0.03%，但我想還是會有一大票預防性漲價的部分。所以我要提醒部長，針對這個部分是不是可以持續地關注，甚至去調查？","其實上個會期我們也有通過中小企業發展條例的修法等等，鼓勵企業分享、加薪給勞工，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我也想要提醒部長，請你們持續追蹤，看看這件事情的成效究竟有沒有真正地展現出來，期望到年底的時候……"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒問題，當然，這也是我們一直都在追蹤的數據，尤其是CPI的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員的發言。","在這邊作以下宣告：在林淑芬委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。","現在請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155672","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155672","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065774b8563ddbd531ede4e273edfded794a9373a247fb1bb1ca443fcc4334c3ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/p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有請我們顧部長來 部長請是 黃委員好部長今天我要問的議題裡面可能就是對國家的安全包含國防的安全 絕對有息息相關昨天我問國安局局長"},{"start":26.551,"end":47.035,"text":"題目裡面以哈中東的戰死但是未提到朝鮮半島朝鮮半島在前4天以前就已經發生了鐵路的一個轟炸也造成兩航之間這些的紛擾但是對我們台海的局勢絕對有影響所以接著我要問的是"},{"start":55.814,"end":59.751,"text":"我們你是法律專家我想請教"},{"start":61.394,"end":88.461,"text":"美國戰略與國際問題的研究中心已經發布關於中國反分裂國家法的報告中指出明年是該法律制定20週年有可能進行修改更激進的為實用武力統一台灣提供合法性那請教部長有何看法要如何因應"},{"start":89.79,"end":113.403,"text":"我想對於任何這些有相關的這些智庫單位所發表的報告我們都表示予以尊重不過我想中國公布相關的任何的規範都有對我們來講這個是對外政策的宣示效果我們兩岸互不隸屬的國際現實對我方是不具管轄權的所以中國內國法跟"},{"start":114.804,"end":116.485,"text":"我們現在不要模糊一個焦點第一個不管是聯合力線A聯合力線B"},{"start":145.267,"end":172.321,"text":"昨天國安局局長可能會引進到聯合力線西剛王帝這個委員也特別有講不管用什麼方法可能會有其他的代號但是現在反分裂國家法這個既然都已經釋出對國際的鮮言那我們不得不提防"},{"start":173.035,"end":196.669,"text":"因為我們在反分裂國家法的是在2005年的中共通過基本的法律其中最重要的內容是以下條件將以和平手段完成統一第一個台灣從中國分裂出去的事實"},{"start":197.549,"end":216,"text":"第二,發聲將會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事變。第三,和平統一的可能性完全的喪失,所以該法是中共設定統一台灣的條件和統一後的基本治理的原則。"},{"start":217.06,"end":230.857,"text":"所以這個我們不得不防因為我們現在已經紛紛擾擾我說部長你要有自己的因應的措施跟看法你再說一遍那是不是可以來回答我這個問題"},{"start":232.357,"end":256.149,"text":"我想我們是不會採取挑釁的作為我們大家共同的目標都是在維持台海的和平穩定現狀所以我們不會採取任何挑釁的一個作為那現在看起來包括禮拜一這樣的一個聯合力艦的演習還有剛剛講的這種每個月每週進行的那種常態化的聯合"},{"start":257.938,"end":270.645,"text":"暫備警訊等等的這些從事這樣子一個挑釁的這個行為的都是中國所以我們希望的就是能夠維持台海的和平穩定現狀"},{"start":271.786,"end":299.207,"text":"好 就我們國防部的角度我們有一個退將叫戰右俠退將那你們已經做一個懲處因為他已赴中所以你們要為了表達對整個親中的這樣的一個行為也造成很多的降官可能也會發生那你們有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":300.479,"end":323.323,"text":"我們已經就是說多方查核認定這個他確實是有違反這一個兩岸人民關係條例第9條之3的這個規定所以我們經過審查會的認定之後做出這一個適切的一個行政的這個懲處他現在也請了法律律師來提出辯護你們有什麼看法"},{"start":324.045,"end":342.959,"text":"我想他依法當然可以提起他這個救濟的權利對於他依法提起救濟的權利我想就按程序來走我們表示尊重其他的就是有關於青年扶勤的同意書在某高中發放青年扶勤同意書給學生"},{"start":344.609,"end":361.041,"text":"並注明是具依據全民的防衛動員準備法及配合地方政府學校青年服刑的大隊需求,擔心是動員高中學生暫時自願參加後勤的工作。"},{"start":363.779,"end":370.682,"text":"這邊有一個調查的報告以戰爭無關但是這是教育部對媒體所回答的說這個以戰爭無關請問部長像教育部這樣的一個說法你認同嗎?"},{"start":383.824,"end":409.07,"text":"第一個我還是說明這個確實是跟這個學生會不會參與軍事行動或軍事勤務有關是不會有任何的關聯的這是第一點第二點就是說我想這個整個對學生的這個教育訓練的目的是在於任何這個重大災害或者是任何緊急狀況發生的時候他們能夠在這個校園裡面能夠自救"},{"start":411.531,"end":437.35,"text":"所以我認為重要的是在於有從事這樣子的一個教育的一個訓練那第三點我認為呢像這樣子的一種志願的一種同意書的調查我認為是可以檢討廢除啦我個人認為是沒有太大意義所以今天有一個某高中已經發放青年扶勤同意書給學生那如果是依據的是權動法那就是涉及到兩個部分"},{"start":438.01,"end":459.725,"text":"第一個這件事應該是國防部主管或者是國防部參與第二就是潛動法第三條指出在動員準備階段是要這個基礎戰時總體戰力動員實施階段是要支援軍事作戰及緊急為難這是怎麼樣的一個戰爭無關這怎麼會是無關呢"},{"start":465.946,"end":474.432,"text":"我只是說明第一點就是說這個按照權動法的這個15條的規定這個教育部他要訂定一些相關的計畫那"},{"start":478.067,"end":506.206,"text":"那這樣子的一個計畫他們所主要的目的就是在讓這個校園他們在任何重大災害或是任何緊急狀況發生的時候他們能夠發揮這個讓維護校園的安全跟自救救人的一個功能所以我剛剛認為已經表示我認為重點是放在這一個教育訓練上面至於他們說要發放這個這個同意書這個部分當然是由這個教育部來主責"},{"start":506.766,"end":509.468,"text":"當然不是很有意義,而且趕快修正,因為這個是造成居民或是家庭或是很多全國的學生的不安"},{"start":533.369,"end":548.721,"text":"這就是一個製造一個問題讓居民讓百姓都已經不安的一個議題那另外就是我想請教我們目前來講我們在你上任之後你採取了這些"},{"start":550.868,"end":551.368,"text":"李穎的宣教有"},{"start":579.454,"end":579.734,"text":"反映什麼?第一個"},{"start":607.725,"end":626.262,"text":"部隊不請沒有減少幹部的業務反而讓部隊把簡單的事情做成一個複雜的工作那提醒部長真正的問題在觀念和執行的落實部長如果要下令卻沒有去了解實際的狀況或執行的話"},{"start":628.984,"end":643.938,"text":"這等於是改革只是紙上談兵那我也希望在基層上的官兵更加的苦不堪言所以我們你要實際了解你所下達的這個命令到底下面有沒有去執行你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":644.418,"end":662.766,"text":"是,我覺得委員指教的是對的,我應該要進行了解就是說有沒有因為我想要達成一個比較人性化的管理,然後減少這個形式主義,然後用檢法的思維,這件事情到底有沒有貫徹到基層,我應該要去了解。"},{"start":663.086,"end":663.446,"text":"謝謝黃任委員：部長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":267,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長，今天我要問的議題是國家安全，也和國防安全息息相關。昨天我問國安局局長有關以哈中東戰事，也提到朝鮮半島。日前朝鮮半島發生鐵路轟炸事件，造成兩韓間的紛擾，我認為這對我們臺海局勢絕對有影響。部長是法律專家，所以我要請教部長。美國戰略與國際問題研究中心在已經發布的中國反分裂國家法報告中指出，明年是該法律制定二十週年，有可能修改得更激進，為使用武力統一臺灣提供合法性，請教部長有何看法？要如何因應？"],["顧部長立雄：對於這些智庫單位所發表的報告，我們都予以尊重。不過中國公布的相關任何規範，對我們來講是對外政策的宣示效果，兩岸互不隸屬乃國際現實，故對我方是不具管轄權的。所以中國內國法跟相關法律的適用、解釋，對我們在臺國人而言，我不認為有任何的拘束力。他如果要以任何藉口……他一直宣稱不放棄使用武力統一臺灣，所以我想他可以使用任何理由來進行，為他統一臺灣來編理由。"],["黃委員仁：所以我們現在不要模糊焦點。第一個，不管是聯合利劍A或聯合利劍B，昨天國安局局長說甚至可能進到聯合利劍C。王定宇委員也特別提到，不管用什麼方法，可能會有其他的代號。現在既然以反分裂國家法為由釋出國際宣言，那麼我們就不得不提防。反分裂國家法是中共在2005年所通過的基本法律，其最重要的內容是以和平手段完成統一，除非有以下三種情況：第一，臺灣從中國分裂出去的事實；第二，發生將會導致臺灣從中國分裂出去的重大事變；第三，和平統一的可能性完全喪失。所以該法是中共設定統一臺灣的條件和統一後的基本治理原則，這個我們不得不防，因為我們現在已經紛紛擾擾。部長，我想你要有自己的因應措施跟看法，你是不是可以再說一遍，回答我這個問題？"],["顧部長立雄：我們不會採取挑釁作為，大家的共同目標都是在維持臺海和平、穩定與現狀，所以我們不會採取任何挑釁作為。現在看起來，包括禮拜一的聯合利劍演習，還有剛剛講的每個月、每週進行的常態化聯合戰備警巡等等，從事這些挑釁行為的都是中國，而我們希望的就是能夠維持臺海的和平、穩定與現狀。"],["黃委員仁：好。針對國防部退將臧幼俠赴中情事，你們已經做出懲處。由於其行為可能影響很多將官，甚至將來可能會再發生，對此你們有什麼樣的看法？"],["顧部長立雄：我們已經進行多方查核，認定他確實違反兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三的規定，故在審查會認定之後，做出此一適切的行政懲處……"],["黃委員仁：他現在請了律師來提出辯護，你們有什麼看法？"],["顧部長立雄：他依法當然可以提起救濟的權利，既然他依法提起救濟權利，我想就按程序來走，我們表示尊重。"],["黃委員仁：好。有關於青年服勤同意書一事，某高中發放青年服勤同意書給學生，並註明係依據全民防衛動員準備法及配合地方政府、學校青年服勤大隊之需求。本席擔心這是在動員高中學生戰時自願參加後勤工作，但教育部回答媒體時說與戰爭無關。請問部長，針對教育部的說法你認同嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，我還是要說明，這確實跟學生參與軍事行動或軍事勤務沒有任何關聯，這是第一點。第二點，對學生教育訓練的目的，是在於任何重大災害或任何緊急狀況發生時，他們能夠在校園裡有自救、互救的功能，所以我認為重要是在於從事這樣的教育訓練。第三點，像這種自願的同意書調查，我認為可以檢討廢除，我個人認為沒有太大意義。"],["黃委員仁：今天有某高中已經發青年服勤同意書給學生，如果依據的是全動法，那就涉及到兩個部分：第一個，這件事應該由國防部主管或國防部參與；第二個，全動法第三條指出，動員準備階段……以積儲戰時總體戰力；動員實施階段……支援軍事作戰及緊急危難，這怎麼會與戰爭無關呢？"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，按照全動法第十五條規定，教育部要訂定相關計畫，而該計畫的主要目的是讓校園在任何重大災害、戰時，或任何緊急狀況發生的時候，能夠維護校園安全跟自救救人的一個功能。所以我剛剛已經表示，重點是放在教育訓練上，至於發放同意書，這部分當然是由教育部來主責，但我個人認為我們可以來跟教育部協調看看，若計畫要修訂的話，我個人認為這所謂同意書不是很有意義，我個人認為可以廢除。"],["黃委員仁：當然不是很有意義，而且應該趕快修正，因為這個會造成居民或是家庭，或者很多全國學生的不安，這就是製造問題，讓居民、讓百姓都已經不安的一個議題。","另外我想請教，目前來講，在你上任之後你採取了這些報告中特別加入的內容，例如減少形式管理、訓練的方式，但這些改革措施，目前部隊的執行成效如何？你要求各單位取消離營宣教，以及要求幹部不可以在官兵休假時打電話詢問是否平安或去哪裡、幹什麼，這個部分有沒有落實？"],["顧部長立雄：離營的宣教沒有廢除吧，還是要宣教……"],["劉次長沛智：不是，不是離營宣教，是取消休假時的回報。"],["黃委員仁：對、對、對，沒有錯。"],["顧部長立雄：我想離營的宣教還是要進行的，只是取消要求他要回報這樣子的一個制度。"],["黃委員仁：但是現在很多我們鄉親、官兵在反映，反映什麼？第一個，部隊不僅沒有減少幹部的業務，反而讓部隊把簡單的事情做成一個複雜的工作。提醒部長，真正的問題在於觀念和執行的落實，部長如果要下令，卻沒有去瞭解實際的狀況或執行的話，這種改革等於只是紙上談兵，我也不希望基層官兵更加的苦不堪言，所以你要實際瞭解你所下達的這個命令，到底下面有沒有去執行，你來回答一下，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我覺得委員指教的是對的，我應該要進行瞭解，就是說有沒有因為我想要達成比較人性化的管理，減少形式主義，然後用減法的思維，這件事情到底有沒有貫徹到基層，我應該要去瞭解。"],["黃委員仁：應該要去瞭解，因為現在官兵都苦不堪言啦，我想你要實際去瞭解，到底你所下達的這個命令，但下面執行時的困難點在哪裡，你要瞭解一下，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是，應該的。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員，部長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155671","video_ur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農業部所有的官員你不是應該照顧農民嗎你們自己加了5次加了17%喔你們好意思你們臉都不會謊說農民的公糧收購一碼錢都不要增加"},{"start":108.735,"end":124.287,"text":"好意思嗎?我在跟你講,部長,不是只有你們的薪水問題基本工資,農民也是要請人工對不對?基本工資,13年,調了12次上漲了43%這個要調跟物價有關係嘛對不對?農民也是人啊,也要過一季啊物價調了多少?"},{"start":136.138,"end":149.802,"text":"為什麼不幫農民呢?農民要給他們吃、給他們賺錢你現在變成一個怎麼樣?保證來,我告訴你現在我去跟他們說,民間是生的啦民間是生的,人家現在有問兩個問題嘛你自己丟,為什麼你沒丟?就是,你知道嗎?吃米不知道米多少喔?"},{"start":166.331,"end":171.459,"text":"你現在說不夠農民的思維是不是?我問你一個,農民叫我問你的啦,你什麼農民現在很中啊,一分錢可以賺多少錢?"},{"start":181.496,"end":207.372,"text":"一公斤一公斤差不多6到8萬6到8萬左右好一點的話7萬到8萬二期做的話大概4到6萬你看你看我給你拋錨給你1分底施股差不多1千公斤10幾塊對不對1千6百6十台幣10幾塊剩酒的剩酒的這平均人口外收益差不多這樣嘛好啊你不要看他的看你自己農業部的下面這個資料是你農業部的你農糧食的資料喔"},{"start":210.817,"end":235.144,"text":"一公頃實際能夠生產的你甘股一分地能夠生產的錢多少?一萬空一百一千一百二十二塊而已如果大部分的農民現在是租地對不對?把租地放進去,你看喔我現在給你看的是農業部的資料喔不然你自己看喔把租地的成本再放進去一公頃如果是兩萬四的話一公頃喔"},{"start":236.617,"end":259.284,"text":"農民辛辛苦苦 種一期 今年一期的稻作一公頃 你看先本來欠多少 你看15萬 你先看先看 有問題喔你先聽我講 這是你農業部的資料啦不是 他的那個實際生產成本已經包括了租地已經放進去了對啊 不然對不對阿這邊你又加了一個租地 重複加了什麼重複加 這是你農業部的對 農業部的 聽我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽"},{"start":266.809,"end":276.475,"text":"一公頃十三萬兩千零九十九塊,把租金放進去,都加了兩萬四千三百二十七塊,那加起來,所以不能重複加,有重複啦,有重複啦"},{"start":284.48,"end":285.601,"text":"農業部的資料你回去對一下"},{"start":311.935,"end":326.566,"text":"這是農民給我的我已經找了很多農民的東西都會送出來一分錢他差不多可以讓新本來開發這個包括肥料包括施工包括電子你看裡面一個大宗你看右邊這張圖農民那是很可憐的"},{"start":329.286,"end":345.179,"text":"一到三月電費就要發了多少錢?一萬二,三到五月電費是兩萬一,你看電費最近十三年,電費已經漲了多少了?電費我們有補貼啊有補貼,可是老實講也是漲對不對?這個就是成本之一嘛,我聽你講,來來,這是先本嘛,來你看下一張卡以下一個字,可以收下一個字,這是收嘛,對不對?公糧收購你差不多拿一個公頃"},{"start":353.891,"end":354.851,"text":"一公頃只有15萬多"},{"start":382.349,"end":400.522,"text":"欸 支出15萬多 收入只有17萬多如果你把它變成是一分地 一分地你看 收入17萬多 支出只有15萬多而已啊所以啊 張啓楷說一句話啦 保證剩一分地啦 沒用幾半年 半年喔 忙半年"},{"start":402.247,"end":419.52,"text":"那個賺的錢啊連紅白包一包都不夠不然你如果去吃火鍋你的紅包你至少要包個兩三千對不對農民辛辛苦苦賺半年沒人半年賺不到兩千塊欸只賺到多少一千七百零七十九塊欸"},{"start":422.54,"end":448.631,"text":"這個數據跟我們統計的數據差得非常多,就低的你算多少?你一分錢來你跟我說,你能收到多少?我用一公頃,就是除以十啦我不要這是一期做還是二期做,一期做的話大概六到八萬然後二期做到四到六萬然後如果齁,我昨天來特別請我們統計針對農家收入所得提到的純粹繳公糧的收益"},{"start":449.511,"end":451.772,"text":"一分多就四千啦一分多就四萬啦一分多就四萬啦"},{"start":479.895,"end":486.097,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 農民的一個收益 讓全國的民眾 讓全國的民眾去公平 農業部長說我們農民忙了半年 沒人幾百天 看兩千塊的四千塊一盒 有夠的"},{"start":508.467,"end":521.219,"text":"有嗎?我跟委員報告齁,農民的收益一定是靠產品的優質化去提高價格而不是用政府的資金去貼他的部分優質化你在上面一擊二轉,你去做嘛這個是一個非常重要的觀念現在就是有這麼多人要靠這過一陣子,現在就是時間沒有了啊"},{"start":525.799,"end":550.49,"text":"所以我們現在推了一級二準參加在希望說能夠提高他的所得因為這個數據有問題 我覺得會誤導你跟我的肉叉好 我說兩兩千塊都不到嘛你說可能有三四千 我只要講就是用你的四千塊我一期一期不對啦 我在說一期做是六到八千二期做是四到六千 加起來是差不多一萬"},{"start":551.01,"end":577.525,"text":"你講話要對農民要負責這個是我們的統計數據來講現在張啓楷在這裏嘛政治問題沒有人幾百年賺紅白包就一百百不夠啦阿你講的也多兩包而已啦說實在的阿農民是要那麼可憐你的那個倒三天你這農業不定的我剛切進來你自己都在加薪了你1月1號馬上要加薪為什麼不馬上加薪阿我剛很理性那是兩碼子的事情欸我們不能這樣比對啊"},{"start":579.702,"end":604.836,"text":"你自動放棄你的加薪你若不在意這個的話你加薪你放棄可不可以你放棄我就跟你放棄阿你憑啥加薪對吧不是你憑啥加薪這是兩件事情嘛政府的加薪跟農民公糧因為公糧是少部門的功能阿照顧農民不能隨便就是拿政府的錢我像我如果今天提高五塊農民拍拍手就結束了那對產業是沒有進步的阿"},{"start":606.633,"end":610.535,"text":"你現在是不是見到113席立委的共識跟決議?那天表決的時候,有沒有人反對?邱毅英剛才在那裡說什麼?邱毅英剛剛有反對?"},{"start":638.959,"end":660.989,"text":"主決議提高五塊,他背後的目的就是希望盜農提高所得嘛那我們同樣提高盜農所得,我們用另外一個方式來執行,也是達到委員的目的嘛所以你要幫忙嘛,你讓他維持那基本的生活所需啊,是不是這樣?這是第一件事情,我現在跟你講的"},{"start":662.57,"end":688.842,"text":"你為什麼當農業部長?你是中華民國的農業部長,你要遵守台灣的民主法治啊!所以我要照顧的是所有的產業,不是只有公糧的這些人!外地人說的事情,第一個他是有潛力可行的,一百年調高的一公斤調高三塊錢,立法院做的決議一百年,民國一百年的時候,立法院做的決議,行政部門就編了嘛,對不對?你有潛力可行,這是第一年嘛,第一年是民主化的社會"},{"start":693.593,"end":702.7,"text":"那天我代表臺灣民眾黨提的這個案子每公斤調高26塊錢我們是要加速整個產業這個升級要照顧到農民喔那天表決你看那天韓國瑜韓主席說請問議員會照臺灣民眾黨黨團跟國民黨黨團修正動議通過每公斤調高5塊錢有沒有意義"},{"start":716.24,"end":739.566,"text":"大家看一下那天的標刊這是立法院的公文書一個立法院反對都沒有包括民進黨的立法委員你現在不只站在農民對立面你現在站在所有立委的對立面而且我剛剛跟你講了一百年都照做了你為什麼不做有潛力可行第二個立法院通過的這是法治社會你憑什麼不做"},{"start":741.277,"end":744.438,"text":"農業部照顧所有的農民不是只有道農嗎?我們用另外一個方式來支持道農的所得"},{"start":766.735,"end":768.676,"text":"你現在不是對立委喔你現在是對民意、對農民、對台灣的法治社會啊立法院以前就是這樣運作的啊結果你反其道而行"},{"start":793.749,"end":795.731,"text":"我們一直在照顧農民,我們用另外一個方式來照顧農民的"},{"start":823.53,"end":846.615,"text":"立法院的決議這是法治問題,台灣是法治的社會,民主的社會,你不要去過,又有潛力可行,你趕快編這是一個,你一直在講你什麼一級二轉,我跟你說,我去政科說聽不懂啦,因為二轉你轉十幾年了轉不動啊,好啦,我尊重你,你自己有專業,但你這雙軌啊,你算什麼便利的醫生啊,編完以後你去推你什麼一級二轉3加3"},{"start":848.456,"end":858.502,"text":"這整個台灣民主社會,你現在就推翻了台灣的這個法制,你以為日本人要開會嗎?我今天做這個卦定,你現在不會理我嗎?啊日本人不會關起來?我問你這件事怎麼不定?你不遵守?"},{"start":874.854,"end":894.744,"text":"我所瞭解的就是說在立法院本身的決議裡面如果可以要求我們因為預算是我們來編的那如果說有講到這個經費的部分的話我們必須要好好的評估這樣子一個決議是不是對我們的產業是有幫助的我們的預算都是透過立法院審查的你都可以催翻嘛是不是這個意思"},{"start":902.168,"end":919.654,"text":"我沒有這個意思我沒有這個意思你要不只重視地方你要重視臺灣的民主法治我告訴你一百年是怎麼一百年過了就變了那就是法治的精神嘛全世界都有國會過的東西行政部門又把它推翻你這害臺灣了說實在的"},{"start":921.427,"end":943.329,"text":"我做個折衷趕快編這個也是現在總預算要解決總預算要三個嘛原住民的精華條例要處理嘛通常其實請你接這個也沒有多少錢啊你看台電一下撥補一千億你要給人你那個雞蛋一下浪費了十億啊裡面浪費還很多我們會大砍會嚴格監督的你砍下來的錢都足夠去給農民了啦"},{"start":944.901,"end":973.369,"text":"好不好?我做折衷方案趕快編然後你去推你的那個一級二轉看農民到底要不要接受啦好不好?反正你有加油啦,我是知道人家都說你故意啊結果你故意的東西,你的尊重發低啊你不能夠一直在農民的對立面一直在...我們絕對不會站在農民的對立面內我們一定會用實際的行動去支持產業的發展對啊,所以你用你的一級二轉3加3你一面子嘛可是這個是立法院牽扯到台灣的民宿發低捏"},{"start":975.39,"end":975.47,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時56分）多謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，今天要討論公糧價格已經13年沒有調整了，我先問你，軍、公、教包括你，這13年來調薪調了幾次？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有去算。"],["張委員啓楷：加薪加到連加幾次自己都不曉得，農民13年來一次都沒有，不會太可憐嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想公糧是目前全世界唯一有保障價格的收入。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！你記得有這個……"],["陳部長駿季：相對地，它不是一個……因為你只調公糧的時候，對其他的產業是不公平的。"],["張委員啓楷：那可以一起照顧啊！部長，我先把你問清楚，你知道這13年來對農民一毛不拔的時候，你已經調薪調了4次，你明年1月1日也要調薪，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：你明年要調13年來的第5次，農民情何以堪？你是農業部長，農業部所有的官員，你們不是應該要照顧農民嗎？你們自己加了5次，加了17%，你們好意思？你們可以臉都不會紅地說，農民的公糧收購價格一毛錢都不用增加，好意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：我在跟你講，部長，不是只有你們的薪水問題，還有基本工資，農民也是要請人的對不對？基本工資13年來調了12次，上漲了43%，這個要調是因為跟物價有關係嘛，對不對？農民也是人，他們也要過日子啊！物價調了多少？物價指數至少上漲了15%，農作物的成本最少有25%，從你的薪水、勞工的薪水、基本工資到物價，為什麼不幫農民呢？農民這樣賺的夠吃嗎？你現在變成一個怎麼樣？部長，我跟你講，現在我到地方去，民怨是升的啦！民怨是升的，現在就遇到兩個問題，為什麼你自己有調，但他們沒有調？第二個，你現在是吃米不知米價嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在是不用顧農民的死活了，是不是？我問你一下，這是農民叫我問你的，部長，你知不知道農民現在種水稻，一分地一期可以賺多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：一公頃一期差不多是6萬到8萬左右，好一點的有7萬到8萬；二期作的話大概是4萬到6萬……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你看，我有PowerPoint給你，一分地差不多生產濕穀1,000公斤，也就是16割，有1,666台斤對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：16割算少的。"],["張委員啓楷：算少的，平均下來的數字差不多就這樣。好，那你不要看它的，看你們農業部自己的，下面的那個資料是你們農業部的，是你們農糧署的資料喔！一公頃實際能夠生產的乾穀，一分地能夠生產的錢是多少？才1萬0,122元而已。大部分的農民現在是租地的，對不對？我現在呈現給你看的是農業部的資料，部長你自己看，把租地的成本再放進去，一公頃如果是2萬4的話，農民辛辛苦苦種一期，今年一期的稻作一公頃的成本要多少你自己看！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，你的這個資料有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：你先看，注意聽，你先聽我講，這是你們農業部的資料啦！"],["陳部長駿季：不是，它的實際生產成本已經包括了租地。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有錯啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但這邊你又加了一個租地，是重複加的。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼叫做重複加！這是你們農業部的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，農業……"],["張委員啓楷：聽我講、聽我講，你看上面的實際生產成本一公頃是13萬2,099元對不對？把租金……"],["陳部長駿季：這個已經包括租地了。"],["張委員啓楷：聽我講、聽我講，把租金放進去，多加2萬4,327塊。"],["陳部長駿季：我的意思是說，那13萬2,099元是已經包括地租了，所以不能重複加啦！"],["張委員啓楷：不是重複，哪有重複加？"],["陳部長駿季：有重複啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我講，這是你們農業部的資料，你是在跟我吵什麼！"],["陳部長駿季：我很正確地跟你講，我們在做成本分析的時候，這十三萬多是已經把地租放進去了，所以不能又加上地租變成15萬。"],["張委員啓楷：所以是多少？你說你……"],["陳部長駿季：一期作大概是13萬1到13萬2，這是平均；二期作大概是十二萬多左右，所以大概是12萬、13萬。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，這是你農業部自己的資料，你回農業部的時候自己去對一下。第二個，這是農民給我的，是我去找很多農民跟農會算出來的，一分地的成本差不多要花多少錢？包括肥料、包括施工、包括電費。你看這是大宗，右邊這張圖，農民老實說實在可憐，光是1到3月電費就要花了多少錢？1萬2,000，到5月的電費是2萬1,000，你看電費近13年來已經漲多少了？"],["陳部長駿季：電費我們有補貼啊！"],["張委員啓楷：有補貼，可是老實講也是漲，對不對？這個就是成本之一嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：我先跟你說，來，這是成本。","你看下一張，花那麼多錢可以收多少錢進來，這是收入嘛！對不對？公糧收購如果1公頃一期14萬，他有些是賣給糧商，沒有全部給你，他的總收入大概只有十七萬多。","來，我們看下一張，你把他的收入減掉他自己的成本，這很簡單嘛！這是國小的數學題嘛！部長你看一下，1公頃收入要忙半年喔！一期稻米要忙半年，1公頃支出有十五萬多，收入只有十七萬多。如果你把它變成是1分地，你看收入十七萬多，支出只有十五萬多而已，所以鄉下說一句話，部長，「種一分地，忙半冬」半年喔！忙半年，那個賺的錢連紅白包都不夠一包，部長你如果去喝喜酒，你的紅包至少要包個兩、三千，對不對？農民辛辛苦苦種半年、忙半年，賺不到2,000塊，只賺到多少？1萬7,079塊。"],["陳部長駿季：這個數據跟我們統計的數據差得非常多，這是第一個。"],["張委員啓楷：差很多？差多少？你算下來1分地是差多少？來，你跟我說，可以收入多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我用一公頃除以10，我不知道這是一期作還是二期作？一期作的話大概6到8萬，然後二期作4到6萬，我昨天我們還特別統計針對農家收入所得提到的，純粹繳公糧的收益低於繳民糧的收益，那代表什麼？其實產地的價格提升才是確保農民的收益。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才說什麼？你說1公頃半年可以賺多少錢？4萬到多少？"],["陳部長駿季：就看一期作物……"],["張委員啓楷：4萬到6萬，你比我算的還少，你1分地不到2,000，你只有用1公頃，不就不到1,000塊？"],["陳部長駿季：1分地就4,000啦，1公頃就4萬啦！"],["張委員啓楷：忙了半年，1分地可以賺多少？"],["陳部長駿季：一期差不多6萬到8萬，你如果用1分地，6,000到8,000啦！"],["張委員啓楷：我算出來是連一個紅包2,000塊不到，你說2個紅包，你不覺得農民很可憐嗎？13年因為你沒有調，讓農民這麼可憐，你還不調！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農民的收益……"],["張委員啓楷：讓農民、讓全國的民眾去公評，農業部長說我們農民忙了半年，賺2,000塊、4,000塊是夠的，有嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農民收益一定是靠其產品的優質化去提高價格，而不是用政府的資金去貼他的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：優質化是什麼1集、2轉，你去做嘛！剛剛有說用雙軌……"],["陳部長駿季：這個是一個非常重要的觀念。"],["張委員啓楷：現在就是有這麼多人要靠這個過日子，現在就是賺不到錢啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們現在推了「1集、2轉、3加3」，希望能夠提高他的所得。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們是很理性的，我們把每一個成本、每一個收入都算給你……"],["陳部長駿季：因為這個數據有問題，我覺得會誤導。"],["張委員啓楷：你跟我的落差，好，我說連2,000塊都不到嘛！你說可能有三、四千，我現在跟你說，就是用你的4,000塊，我認為你是不對的，那終究用你的4,000塊，農民也……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我這樣說，一期作是六到八千，二期作是四到六千，加起來是差不多1萬。"],["張委員啓楷：你講話要對農民負責，這個全民都會……"],["陳部長駿季：我負責的，這個是我們的統計數據來講……"],["張委員啓楷：現在在鄉下就是這句話「種一分地，忙半冬，賺嘸紅白包一包」，你說的也只多2包而已，說實在的，農民為什麼要這麼可憐？你可以幫忙他，你是農業部長，我剛剛切進來，你自己都要加薪了，你1月1號馬上要加薪，為什麼不幫忙？第二個，我們剛才很理性……"],["陳部長駿季：委員，公務人員加薪與公糧收購是兩碼子的事情，我們不能這樣比對。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！那你不要加嘛！部長，你不要加薪，你自動放棄你的加薪，你如果不在意這個的話，你加薪，你放棄，可不可以？你連農民都顧不到了，你憑什麼加薪？"],["陳部長駿季：你放棄，我就跟你放棄，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：不是，你憑什麼加薪？"],["陳部長駿季：這是兩件事情嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：什麼兩件事，你為什麼當部長，不就是要照顧農民嗎？你放棄你的加薪，好不好？你根本連照顧都照顧不到……"],["陳部長駿季：政府的加薪跟農民公糧，因為公糧只是少部分的，照顧農民不能隨便拿政府的錢，我如果今天提高5塊，農民拍拍手就結束了，但對產業是沒有進步的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼會沒進步？來，我跟你說，現在我是很理性跟你講支出跟成本。","我現在跟你說另外一個事情，你今天站在這裡，你不只不要站在農民的對立面，你也不要站在立法委員的對立面，我問你一下，你現在是不是賤踏113席立委的共識跟決議？那天表決的時候多少人？有沒有人反對？邱議瑩剛才在那邊說那麼大聲，邱議瑩那天有反對嗎？那天有任何一個民進黨的立委出來反對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，主決議提高5塊，其背後的目的就是希望稻農提高所得嘛！我們同樣提高稻農所得，我們用另外一個方式來執行，也是達到委員的目的嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：我現在跟你說，我都給你看成本了，農民已經肚子餓到就是基本上他的收入已經不夠了，所以你要幫忙嘛！你只要讓他維持基本的生活所需，是不是這樣？這是第一個。第二個，我現在跟你說的，你為什麼當農業部長？你是中華民國的農業部長，要遵守臺灣的民主法治，你聽我說，立法院通過的……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我要照顧的是所有的產業，不是只有公糧的這些人。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們要說兩個事情，第一個，它是有前例可循的，100年1公斤調高3塊錢，立法院做的決議，民國100年的時候，立法院做的決議，行政部門就編了嘛！對不對？你有前例可循，這是第一個。第二個，我們是民主法治的社會，那天的表決是怎樣？那天我代表台灣民眾黨提了這個案子，每公斤調高26塊錢，我們是要加速整個產業升級，要照顧到農民，那天表決，你看韓國瑜韓主席說：請問院會，照台灣民眾黨黨團跟國民黨黨團修正動議通過，每公斤調高5塊錢，有沒有異議？大家看一下，那天的表決，這是立法院的公文書，一個立法委員反對都沒有，包括民進黨的立法委員，你現在不只站在農民對立面，你現在站在所有立委的對立面，而且我剛剛跟你講了，100年都照做了，你為什麼不做？有前例可循。"],["陳部長駿季：農業部的……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，立法院通過的，這是法治社會，你憑什麼不做？剛才說總預算卡住，當然卡住啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想主決議……"],["張委員啓楷：你不照顧農民，我跟你說，我去問了財政部長，問了主計長，人家都說可以編，就是缺你一句話，要照顧農民反而卡在農業部，這不是滑天下之大稽嗎？你怎麼對得起農民？再看一次這個，沒有任何包括……"],["陳部長駿季：農業部照顧的是所有的農民，不是只有稻農……"],["張委員啓楷：剛才在講話的邱議瑩，他那天有反對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們用另外一個方式來支持稻農的所得，讓我們的產業會進步。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你那麼有把握，你去講你們的1集、2轉，就雙軌做嘛！現在問題是立法院通過的決議，當天都沒有一個立委反對，你為什麼要跟所有的立委反對、要坐在對立面？更嚴重的，你現在不是對立委，你現在是對民意、對農民、對臺灣的法治社會，立法院以前就是這樣運作的，結果你反其道而行，你破壞了臺灣的民主跟法治。這樣以後立法院就不用開會，部長……"],["陳部長駿季：我想以農業部的立場，就是要讓我們的產業能夠持續的……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，以後立法院就不用開會了，說實在的，這個案子立法院通過了，而且當天一個人反對都沒有，你不做，立法院不就要關起來，你又是部長，你為什麼不照顧農民？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一直在照顧農民，我們用另外一個方式來照顧農民。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，剛剛邱議瑩一直在講，你用雙軌嘛！立法院的決議，這是法治問題，臺灣是法治的社會、民主的社會，立法院通過的，又有前例可循，你趕快編，這是一個。你一直在講1集、2轉，我跟你說，我去鄉下，他們說聽不懂啦！因為2轉已經轉十幾年了，轉不動啊！好啦！我尊重你，你自己有專業，那你就雙軌啊！你也要編這個預算啊！編完以後，你去推「1集、2轉、3加3」，3年多3塊，繼續做嘛！看農民有贊同你嗎？我們今天講的不是完全照顧農民，這是整個臺灣民主社會，你現在就推翻了臺灣的法治，以後立法院要開會嗎？我今天做這個決定，你現在不理我，立法院不就關起來，我問你最簡單的，部長，這個你不遵守，立法院開會是開什麼意思？"],["陳部長駿季：我所了解的就是在立法院本身的決議裡面，如果可以要求我們，因為預算是我們來編的，那如果有講到經費的話，我們必須要好好的評估這樣子的決議是不是對產業是有幫助的……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你高高在上，所以立法院要關起來了，你們去評估就好了嘛！是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：絕對不是高高在上，我們的預算都是透過立法院審查的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你就是沒有要照顧農民，沒關係！你可以評估嘛！立法院任何的決議你都可以推翻嘛！是不是這個意思？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一直在照顧所有農民，我沒有這個意思。"],["張委員啓楷：這樣立法院不就關起來就好了？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有這個意思。"],["張委員啓楷：你不只重視立法院，你要重視臺灣的民主法治，我講過了，100年為什麼立法院通過了，人家就編了？那就是法治精神嘛！全世界哪有國會通過的，行政部門又把它推翻，你在害臺灣啦！說實在的。"],["主席：好，謝謝張委員。"],["張委員啓楷：我做個折衷，趕快編，這個也是現在總預算要解決的，總預算有三個嘛，原住民禁伐補償條例要處理，最重要的其實是你這個，這個也沒有多少錢啊，你看台電一下撥補1,000億，但你那個雞蛋一下浪費了10億啊！你還浪費很多，我們一定會大砍，會嚴格監督的，砍下來的錢都足夠去給農民了啦，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：我們做折衷方案，趕快編，然後你去推你的1集、2轉，看農民到底要不要接受啦，好不好？部長，加油啦！說實在的，人家都說你老實，但你老實的同時，你要尊重法治啊！你不能夠一直站在農民的對立面，一直在立法院的對立面。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們絕對不會站在農民的對立面，我們一定會用實際的行動去支持產業的發展。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，所以你用「1集、2轉、3加3」一邊去做嘛，可是這個是立法院……這牽扯到臺灣的民主法治耶！老實說，你這樣做下去，農民會抗議，立法院會關起來，拜託一下，為了臺灣、為了臺灣，為了臺灣的民主法治，快點編。好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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多通一百多通?那這個幾個半月當中累積了大概幾通?大概有兩千、一千、一千多件一千多件?那一千多件是不是受到銀行的刁難?"},{"start":286.216,"end":303.032,"text":"因為有些都是有事來問一些個案的問題還有一些是規定的內容問規定的內容他講了多少層數就多半都是諮詢沒有說有受錯殺無辜的現象嘛民眾曾經的部分有些是說銀行的這個申請的時候有刁難還是有嘛"},{"start":309.256,"end":325.901,"text":"有沒有說哪家銀行?沒有,他們通常是我們都有轉給各銀行因為各銀行的部分都在排隊他們的確說是因為有量的用塞的部分所以還是在排隊嘛但是後來大概很多的個案大概都排除掉了"},{"start":326.661,"end":349.512,"text":"對,都有排除掉,所以都有一一化解。接下來我就請總裁。總裁,如果是這樣子的話,聽起來比例沒有相當的高。但是我們必須說,你現在整個5.8個月當中,你剛剛算了,大概增加了5.3兆,所以等於是一年增加大概一兆。"},{"start":351.052,"end":370.737,"text":"這個資本集中率的部分加上有幾個問題你要小心第一個親安貸的部分新親安的部分他的貸款是到2026年的7月將近還有兩年的時間兩年才會結束第二個我在提醒總裁一個數字內政部就我理解的部分"},{"start":371.357,"end":388.387,"text":"議員．"},{"start":388.707,"end":415.91,"text":"這是第二個問題所以這樣子加起來的話我在擔心在你如果以過去的這個親安貸一年大概是貸款大概6000億6000億兩年就有1.2帳如果內政部那個預售屋所有的土建容出估那還不是親安貸土建容出估的話一戶你跟他代表大概1000萬的話"},{"start":418.285,"end":420.786,"text":"有沒有可能這種兩種現象 這兩種現象的時候你怎麼辦"},{"start":448.12,"end":467.252,"text":"本期就叫你這種狀況是有可能不是不可能那委員您講的這個你的推論是蠻有道理的但是呢所以這個也就是說在我們報告裡面我們有講到就是說我們這一次的第七波也就是說我們要限制它的成數"},{"start":468.633,"end":469.595,"text":"現在就是說資源有限資源有限那要如何的來分配"},{"start":482.116,"end":485.519,"text":"總裁,我沒有懷疑你第七波的破例跟效應。我只是會讓你說未來的部分怎麼辦?"},{"start":499.171,"end":514.273,"text":"這三個還等著等著你你還有挑戰還有三個狀況新青安的話我跟委員報告新青安應該如果說以我們現在資源雖然有限我個人覺得他應該是可以足以來應務他"},{"start":515.835,"end":534.678,"text":"但是現在就是說建築的這個部分委員倒是講的也沒有錯因為這個建築融資的這個部分有的據我了解這是我從報章雜誌那邊看到的他說因為銀行老早就有已經有給他那個什麼額度"},{"start":535.819,"end":555.147,"text":"已經有額度。那額度的意思就是說他是已經有簽約了。已經有簽約?有簽約你現在已經水位都已經2829了。那到時候他怎麼拿出來?所以呢也就是說這個就是說看那個各個銀行要如何去分配他的這個資源。難道又要開後門嗎?"},{"start":556.462,"end":563.305,"text":"總裁我真的慎重提醒你事情恐怕還不是那麼單純一個是清安貸一個是按量增加然後再加上那個過往整個金額的換算起來我真的很擔心那個37.5還會往上攀升你要意識到這個問題"},{"start":584.693,"end":604.938,"text":"即便你第七波非常的強而有力但是第二個問題有搞不好會滿水位的問題滿水問題這兩個問題都會同時存在然後後續的部分你剛剛講到建商的部分建商的部分現在有些建商就出現了大幹趕又大滯銷的部分所以這種現象會變成建商負債過高滯銷率這個過高"},{"start":607.479,"end":622.351,"text":"以至於這個建商接下來他用這種方式說以後我可獲得的這個利益可能可以期待創造一些本夢比所以以至於他反而他股價也變高這種情況底下說變成說他為了股價然後呢做蓋桿然後又把滯銷這種情況底下那個難道這個從預唆還有整個建商的整個財務建設來看還有包括整個這個漁務貸款的問題"},{"start":632.719,"end":637.844,"text":"委員的督促是都相當有幫助的啦給主管機關各個部會都有很好的一個建議啦這個我想我們都會來好好的來注意他好不好"},{"start":653.379,"end":664.568,"text":"本席最後提醒您一句話這是第七波我想這三個月是一個很密切的觀察期我希望能夠形成一個真正有效的政策出來謝謝總裁謝謝委員謝謝郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時58分）主席，有請楊金龍總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：總裁好。總裁，沒有A，B＋也不錯啦！日本跟韓國也都B＋嘛！我們雖然沒有拿到A，但也沒有比人家差。就像討論外匯匯率的部分，本席今天就發現，美國最近都在降息，反觀我們，基本上最近這幾次的央行理監事會是升息又升準，為什麼我們還會貶值？然後今天我看到一則新聞說，我們居然花了90.6億的美金想要阻貶，結果還是貶，貶了5.29%，難道就這麼單純是因為整個外資匯出250億美金，就會造成這樣的結果嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們的報告也有講到，好像沒有那麼detail，事實上我們的股市表現得非常好，我們股市從今年初到現在……"],["郭委員國文：所以外資賺了一大堆錢就趕快匯出去了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊，我們的股市在全球來講好像成長的幅度是最高的喔！"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯。"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然……"],["郭委員國文：我們現在整個市值，就我所了解，已經高達……"],["楊總裁金龍：在這種情況之下，我跟委員報告，外資的操作是很靈活的，他不會說你一直漲的時候……"],["郭委員國文：所以你是為了穩定匯率而出手，如果過度貶值的話，搞不好它會有輸入性通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員講得沒有錯，不過我們在……"],["郭委員國文：是不是？所以你為了這樣子，怕臺灣的CPI升高嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不過我們在報告裡面有講，目前臺灣裡面沒有輸入性通膨的情況。"],["郭委員國文：好，今天的主題不是談CPI，我們現在來談今天的報告，關於第七波信用管制的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：本席就你寫的報告當中，這也是你的報告，你看我特別標紅字的部分，也就是整個土建融的部分，成長幅度從2018年起，2018年剛好從你那個趨勢圖來說相對是低點的，到2024年就一下子就到37.5%，37.5%當中很清楚的看到，你看從土建融的部分就看得出來建商在拚命推案，所有的放款比例都是成長，大約成長了六成，土建融的部分大概就高達八成六，這是第一個狀況。","當然正因為在這樣的情況底下，你會出手進行第七波的信用管制，剛開始你的壓力很大，但是最近10月10號賴清德總統在國慶演說的時候強調，他不會迴避高房價、強調要增加打炒房的效率，即便得罪特定的團體也在所不惜！在這樣的情況底下，等於賴總統對你整個的第七波管制進行背書，總裁，你能不能講一講你的心得怎麼樣？感受怎麼樣？有沒有覺得很溫暖？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，總統在國慶演說裡面也有提到這一點，我覺得……"],["郭委員國文：第一次國慶還會講到這個議題耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：是！很顯然他對於房地產市場也非常關心。"],["郭委員國文：是啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：才會在國慶裡面提到這這件事情。"],["郭委員國文：所以在總統的心目中，你應該是得A了啦，不只是B+。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，所以不要在乎那個啦，重點是接下來這一個信用管制有沒有效果？因為之前我就看過一篇報導說，有一個銀行主管依照他經驗的理解，真正換屋的大概不到5%。但是我就教於你，你當初因為有一些壓力，央行也特別設置專線，大概有15線、後來變成14線，在這一個半月當中，民眾陳情、投訴銀行的案例到底有幾件？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想呢……"],["郭委員國文：你們統計的，這是你們開放的啊，有沒有數字？"],["楊總裁金龍：是！主要的還是換屋跟繼承這兩個，主要的還是這兩個。"],["郭委員國文：對，反映最多是這兩個。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：那案件大概有多少個？"],["楊總裁金龍：關於我們的案件，我來跟……"],["郭委員國文：你們累積多少個？應該有計算吧！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟我們的業務局……"],["郭委員國文：來！"],["潘局長榮耀：跟委員報告，過去民眾打電話來陳情……"],["郭委員國文：對，你們設立專線之後的一個半月期間。"],["潘局長榮耀：一天大概都會將近一百多通。"],["郭委員國文：一百多通？"],["潘局長榮耀：對，還有民眾陳情的案件。"],["郭委員國文：一個半月當中累計大概幾通？"],["潘局長榮耀：大概有一千多件。"],["郭委員國文：一千多件是不是受到銀行的刁難？"],["潘局長榮耀：有些是來問一些個案的問題，還有一些是規定的內容。"],["郭委員國文：問規定的內容大概是問降了多少成數，多半都是諮詢啦？"],["潘局長榮耀：是。"],["郭委員國文：沒有錯殺無辜的現象嘛？"],["潘局長榮耀：關於民眾陳情的部分，有些是說銀行……"],["郭委員國文：就是不理解？"],["潘局長榮耀：申請的時候……"],["郭委員國文：有刁難？還是有嘛！"],["潘局長榮耀：這一部分我們都會……"],["郭委員國文：有沒有說哪一家銀行？"],["潘局長榮耀：沒有，他們通常是……我們都有轉給各銀行，因為各銀行的部分都在排隊，他們的確因為有量的壅塞。"],["郭委員國文：所以還是在排隊嘛，對不對？"],["潘局長榮耀：但是後來很多個案大概都排除掉了。"],["郭委員國文：對，都有排除掉，其實都有一一化解，好。"],["潘局長榮耀：是。"],["郭委員國文：接下來我就請總裁。總裁，如果是這樣子的話，聽起來比例沒有相當的高啦，但是我們必須說，在整個5.8年當中，你剛剛算了大概增加了5.3兆，等於是一年增加大概1兆，這是資本集中率的部分。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：加上有幾個問題，你要小心，第一個，新青安的貸款是到2026年的7月，將近還有兩年的時間，兩年才會結束喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：第二個，我再提醒總裁一個數字，內政部就我理解的部分，預售屋的部分大概有9萬戶，9萬戶喔！而且還不包括今年的檔期，今年的檔期有329、928加起來，往年的案量金額大概1兆，今年是2兆，這是第二個問題。","所以這樣子加起來的話，我擔心如果以過去的青安貸，一年貸款大概是6,000億，兩年就有1.2兆，如果內政部那個預售屋、所有的土建融初估，還不是青安貸，而是土建融初估的話，一戶大概代表1,000萬，很高耶，大概9,000億！所以夯不啷噹加起來、這兩個plus起來又是2兆以上。所以這個會不會導致即便在第七波信用管制之後，37.5的資本集中度還往上衝高，或者第二個問題是第七十二條之二的30%水位滿位，沒有辦法再貸，有沒有可能這兩種現象？這兩種現象的時候你怎麼辦？本席就就教你這種狀況，這是有可能、不是不可能！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員的推論是滿有道理的，所以在我們的報告裡面有講到，我們這一次的第七波要限制它的成數，剛剛委員也講到，因為它滿水位了嘛，現在資源有限，那要如何來分配？所以我們這一次的第七波也是在於，我們把這個成數、把那些不需要的……不需要那個讓它……"],["郭委員國文：總裁，我沒有懷疑你第七波的魄力跟效應，我只是讓你說未來的部分怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：未來，對啊……"],["郭委員國文：我剛剛講這三個還等著你。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它還是等著啦，當然！"],["郭委員國文：你還有挑戰、還有三個狀況。"],["楊總裁金龍：關於新青安的話，我跟委員報告，雖然我們現在資源有限，我個人覺得應該是足以來應付它，但是現在建築的這個部分，委員講的倒也沒有錯，因為建築融資的部分，有的據我了解，這是我從報章雜誌那邊看到的，因為銀行老早就已經給他額度、已經有額度，那額度的意思就是說他是已經有簽約了。"],["郭委員國文：已經有簽約？即使有簽約，現在已經水位都已經28、29了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對！所以……"],["郭委員國文：到時候他怎麼拿出來？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以這部分看各個銀行要如何去分配他的資源。"],["郭委員國文：難道又要開後門嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想銀行會有自己的方法去解決這些問題，所以第一個，他的時間會拉長也沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，我真的慎重提醒你，事情恐怕還不是那麼單純，一個是青安貸、一個是案量增加，然後再加上過往整個金額換算起來，我真的很擔心那個37.5%還會往上攀升，你要意識到這個問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["郭委員國文：即便你第七波非常的強而有力，但是第二個問題，搞不好還會有滿水位的問題，這兩個問題都會同時存在。","關於後續，你剛剛講到建商的部分，現在有些建商就出現了大槓桿又大滯銷，所以這種現象會變成建商負債過高、滯銷率過高，以致於建商接下來他用這種方式就是，以後他可獲得的利益可能可以期待，創造一些本夢比，反而他的股價也變高，這種情況底下會變成說，他為了股價做槓桿，然後又滯銷，在這種情況底下，從預售還有整體建商財務監測來看，還有包括整個餘屋貸款的問題，難道不一併來做一個檢討嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們會密切的注意他，好不好？委員的督促……"],["郭委員國文：對呀，就如同你說的……"],["楊總裁金龍：委員的督促都相當有幫助，給主管機關、各個部會都有很好的建議，這部分我們都會來好好的注意他，好不好？"],["郭委員國文：所以本席最後提醒您一句話，這是第七波，我想這三個月是一個很密切的觀察期，我希望能夠形成一個真正有效的政策出來。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。"],["主席（郭委員國文代）：接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065e90720632c984cfade4e273edfded794a9373a247fb1bb1c7bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:48:28 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Guard單純視為那樣的行動它應該是一個準軍事甚至於就是軍事行動這概念是對的料敵從寬我先請教中共從啟動聯合戰備警巡到現在它的頻率大概多久一次這個問題我昨天有問過國安局長"},{"start":37.008,"end":56.897,"text":"我剛剛業務報告也提到了這個每月大概三四次那也就是說每週一次對差不多所以我接下來繼續問之前我先提醒不只提醒國防部國安局我也提醒我們立法院的同事跟各界不要陷入中共命名的陷阱邏輯我一直問你有沒有聯合力艦CDEFG"},{"start":61.749,"end":90.951,"text":"他隨便把一個戰備警巡加一點規模你說沒有我就把他取個名字叫C去削弱你的公信力讓內部失去互信那個命名的邏輯因為名字是他來定的樣態是他來決定的所以我們在這邊去猜測他有沒有利件CDEFGHIJK那個全部是由他來決定所以不用進入到這個命名的邏輯陷阱重要的是我們自己做好什麼樣的準備所以回到我剛才問的題目"},{"start":91.812,"end":112.169,"text":"在共軍或者他們的coast guard平均每週一次的聯合戰備警巡他的樣態大概是甚麼樣子有用到戰轟機嗎海空兵力都有嗎都有這樣子的一個狀況存在他大概他平均起來大概機艦大概量是多少"},{"start":113.611,"end":134.579,"text":"這個不等,這個不等,這個有時候他,因為您剛剛提到的就是說他是一般的聯合戰備警巡的話,他就是空軍的兵力,然後另外海軍配合抵近24海浬嘛,對不對?那另外他如果還要結合海空聯訓的話,那他可能會西南再過來,然後再往到東邊,這樣子。"},{"start":138.38,"end":142.504,"text":"昨天國安局長回答我說有新增一個狀況就是他們有用了登陸艦我不知道我們這邊海軍用登陸艦在做巡航這個是正常還是不正常"},{"start":167.057,"end":184.893,"text":"跟委員報告一下,我們所掌握到的在這次聯合力艦2024B並沒有看到他們用登陸艦但是在戰備警訊有沒有?戰備警訊有嘛對,在前幾天有一個,但那個是新的,因為以前沒有是,但不是在這次的聯合戰備,就是2024不是聯合力艦B啦"},{"start":186.334,"end":202.173,"text":"也就是說我看了一下昨天局長回答他應該講的就是聯合戰備警巡裡面有看到所以我現在詢問不管是部長或海軍就是說在聯合戰備警巡裡面用到登陸艦這是尋常還是不尋常"},{"start":206.489,"end":225.745,"text":"應該是說他也是做一個操演那只是他操演裡面的一環而已他採用的是哪一款的那個兩棲登陸艦報告委員我海軍參謀長那他一般的聯合戰備警巡那他都有一般他的想定的狀況那除了必要對我施壓的風控之外他用那個兩棲登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡"},{"start":230.829,"end":232.87,"text":"你們研判他 把他放進去 他是要做什麼"},{"start":260.757,"end":261.337,"text":"致海的飛彈部隊都有做一個戰備運作"},{"start":290.552,"end":302.268,"text":"最近對岸有沒有不正常的集結狀態?或者是兵力、物資的移動?您是說?就是近期來"},{"start":303.669,"end":328.312,"text":"在地面的部隊裏面沒有那那個兩位幕僚先請回我先再請教部長下一個題目是我們除了海空軍重要以外本席非常注重的是我們單兵的裝備我也謝謝部長在我們的T112的步槍雷子器跟光學瞄準儀那個確實是可以縮減"},{"start":330.313,"end":352.609,"text":"訓練的時間提高訓練的成效甚至於未來後備戰力要迅速成為合格的步槍兵這是有注意的那個金額相較於大型裝備其實沒那麼大但對陸軍對我們的步槍兵的戰力是有幫忙的那本席現在要提的是抗彈板抗彈板是保護我們第一線作戰部隊的生命安全"},{"start":354.158,"end":382.979,"text":"所以過去曾經發生過網紅拿抗彈板來打當然那個測試的方式也許不符標準但也顯示國人對於我們國軍抗彈板防護裝備能力的重視但我最近就發現我們軍備局局長這件事情可能在你來之前發生還是之後我不知道你注意一下這個事情我們今年初205場採購抗彈板的陶瓷抗彈陶瓷"},{"start":384.482,"end":406.797,"text":"那得標的兩家廠商普插田被判定他是經過越南洗產地的中國貨插盟他用的是回收細粉作為原料結果被政府採購網上你去看google上面就有判定是無法決標那因為時間關係我直接點出一個問題"},{"start":410.066,"end":434.608,"text":"在這一次決標裡面有幾個問題除了我剛才看到以外你知道表面的塗層我們竟然是用聚氨酯不是用聚尿美軍是用聚尿跟委員報告我們規範就是一定要用聚尿他用的是聚氨酯你去查聚尿比較貴可是他韌性比較好結果你們那個材料上面塗的是聚氨酯"},{"start":435.629,"end":436.71,"text":"明年的量產案現在都還在招標階段"},{"start":459.082,"end":483.715,"text":"有一個叫磁性快扣就是我們穿上那個反彈背心可以趕快扣趕快拿下來你們用的是磁性扣你知道嗎局長這個的話是在我們的外歸部分我們有注意到阿為什麼要用磁性扣我告訴你美軍美軍的ESAPI抗彈板是不採取磁扣"},{"start":485.151,"end":512.069,"text":"我們稍微搜索了一下全世界各軍種用的防彈背心它的扣都要用非磁性你知道用磁性會有什麼問題嗎海軍陸戰隊的指北針就失效了在水中的時候或者在移動的時候它會吸雜物所以世界各軍都沒有用磁扣只有我們台灣軍備局在採購的時候用磁扣而且就一家有磁扣其他都沒有這不是綁規格標嗎"},{"start":515.612,"end":543.072,"text":"跟委員報告這些委員提供的資訊我們會下去還有再來我們的抗彈陶板是要用碳化矽的陶瓷你們得標的那一家齁那一家某盟是用回收矽粉判定無法決標請你注意第二名第二名得標的那一家他的生產線根本沒有生產碳化矽陶瓷他如果能夠供貨你去查他貨哪裡來的"},{"start":544.363,"end":563.931,"text":"不要用made in China的你懂我意思嗎不是第二名就好也不是第一名就好你們這整個投標案壓壓烏還有不是就這樣子而已你們為什麼多了以往都沒有你們為什麼這次多了在他那個夾層裡面放了PE部"},{"start":565.418,"end":589.605,"text":"一方面那個陸軍常委長穿的PE布第一個那個透汗性有問題第二個我後來去看了一下只有一家投標廠商他有能夠他在甲層裡面放PE布其他的沒有規格標持扣規格標然後呢塗料給我用用這一個聚氨酯去取代聚尿"},{"start":591.192,"end":600.18,"text":"外行人不知道居安子跟鋸尿那個進去那個韌性那個是有影響的喔局長請問一下這個採購案是誰決定的這些規格"},{"start":605.558,"end":628.219,"text":"跟委員報告所有的規格都是205廠根據他們的去年7月委員所指導完之後新式的抗彈板來用ISAPI測試完之後我們就結合了國內的最大廠我建議局長齁我講坦白話我也不先入為主我也在沒有證據下我也不講是誰但是不要拿205廠跟生殖中心當墊背不是這兩個啦主持會議的時候"},{"start":633.161,"end":658.717,"text":"是誰要用磁性快扣的你抓一個點那個顧部長也是法律專家你抓一個單點看那個單點是誰堅持的大概就知道全貌是什麼就是說這些規格會妨礙我們的抗彈背心抗彈板的量產如果照這樣量產下去以後是不合用全世界只有我們用那個有磁鐵的開玩笑所以本席"},{"start":660.205,"end":672.261,"text":"提供這一些事實上他後面的廠商還有跟我們原來軍服供應商一直累積無法供應售後服務讓國軍弟兄抱怨連連的同一掛人同一掛人"},{"start":677.587,"end":703.997,"text":"軍服我們的供應戰他就做不好了想要來做抗戰你做好保護生命安全做好我都沒有意見我很少針對標案體檢這個事情是影響到每一個第一線主戰部隊作戰部隊他能不能抵抗抵抗子彈的襲擊的這生命安全的問題而且這一批大量採購下去我們搞不好未來連後備部隊首備部隊主戰部隊這三級的部隊都會用到"},{"start":705.666,"end":723.106,"text":"所以部長我最後一點時間給你齁這個案子你怎麼看因為剛剛委員指導的這些相關的這個事項當然我也是剛剛聽到了齁那就這些事項我想下去軍備局應該要做個瞭解我會查證"},{"start":724.488,"end":724.728,"text":"王定宇"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":191,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時48分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。我非常贊成你剛剛講的一句話，不要把他們所謂的警巡、警察行動、Coast 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in China，你懂我意思嗎？不是第二名就好，也不是第一名就好，你們這整個投標案，鴉鴉烏啊。","還有，不是只有這樣子而已，你們為什麼這次多在那個夾層裡面放了PE布？以往都沒有，陸軍參謀長穿的PE布，第一個，透汗性有問題，第二個，我後來去看了一下，只有一家投標廠商能夠在夾層裡面放PE布，其他的沒有，是規格標；磁扣也是規格標，然後塗料給我用聚胺酯去取代聚脲，外行人不知道，聚胺酯跟聚脲進去的韌性，那個是有影響的。局長，請問一下這個採購案這些規格是誰決定的？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，所有的規格都是205廠根據他們去年7月委員所指導完之後，新式的抗彈板用ISAPI測試完之後，我們就結合了國內的最大廠……"],["王委員定宇：我建議局長，我講坦白話，我也不先入為主，在沒有證據下，我也不講是誰，但是不要拿205廠跟生製中心當墊背，不是這兩個，主持會議的時候，是誰要用磁性快扣的？你抓一個點，顧部長也是法律專家，你抓一個單點，看那個單點是誰堅持的，大概就知道全貌是什麼。"],["林局長文祥：是。"],["王委員定宇：這些規格會妨礙我們的抗彈背心、抗彈板的量產，如果照這樣量產下去以後不合用，全世界只有我們用那個有磁鐵的，開玩笑！所以本席提供這一些，事實上，它後面的廠商還有跟我們原來軍服供應商，一直累積無法供應，售後服務讓國軍弟兄抱怨連連的是同一掛人，我們的軍服供應站它就做不好了，還想要來做抗彈板？你做得好，保護生命安全，我都沒有意見，我很少針對標案提意見，但這件事影響到第一線主戰部隊、作戰部隊能不能抵抗子彈襲擊的生命安全問題！而且這一批大量採購下去，搞不好未來連後備部隊、守備部隊、主戰部隊這三級部隊都會用到。部長，我最後一點時間給你，這個案子你怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：就委員指導的這些相關事項，我也是剛剛才聽到，下去後軍備局應該會就這些事項做了解。"],["林局長文祥：我會查證後再向您報告。"],["顧部長立雄：查證完之後，再……"],["王委員定宇：我本來還要問狙擊槍什麼的，但我不要占用太多時間，之後再跟相關單位討論。我提醒部長，因為明年要量產，所以有時間上的問題。我們當然希望量產，因為部隊需要，但不要為了量產而採用不合規格的劣質廠商，我就這個建議，好不好？謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們一定會注意這件事，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委。接下來有請黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155667","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155667","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e306570cca0e9b9f306b84009fd1c3043021ea9373a247fb1bb1c741bf18dc6c7e1075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:47:57 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,"text":"獨立性的這個司法委員會這個部長能不能說明這邊我也希望有建立一個國家級的就是在外界是在行政院的這個一個外界然後把剛剛委員有提到的散落在各個機關的這些的但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊經過這麼多年106年到現在113年跟委員報告就是本來就是有嚴厲就是設在行政院但是因為行政院他的委員會他那個已經"},{"start":488.749,"end":489.15,"text":"市長要補充嗎?"},{"start":498.632,"end":526.286,"text":"我看你一直愈遇愈遇事跟委員報告其實這個是一個政策上的選擇在行政院當時在討論的時候到底是要一階段來達成這個目標還是分階段二階段來達成目標所以在政策上的選擇上行政院決定用二階段來達成這個目標第一階段現在就是我們現在法務部所提出來的版本先設在法務部的一個委員會接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的這一個但你們設在法務部之下"},{"start":527.612,"end":534.196,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會"},{"start":556.045,"end":572.093,"text":"學青政務組變成生物認證中心,就把組改成中心,增加一個綜合規劃中心,跟新設一個司法科學研究教育中心,大概就這樣子,沒有改變啊?沒有,這個委員會的組成,即使未來是法務部的三級機關,它還是由一個委員會來,審議委員會獨立存在"},{"start":578.676,"end":587.302,"text":"這個我現在就可以討論這個審議委員會了齁你們把這個審議委員會你所謂獨立存在並不是獨立存在於這個國家架構沒有錯但是他是獨立運作他是在這個國家科學委員會"},{"start":594.086,"end":599.811,"text":"國家科學院的院長下面他的成績還在國家科學院院長下面把原本應該獨立於國家獨立的機關拉到法務部下面的研究院的下面"},{"start":610.969,"end":632.438,"text":"對這個要如何這個要他他他所扮演職能他要怎麼樣具有空氣力去做這個有關實驗室啊人員資格的認證有關這個司法科學教育司法科學政策全部都由他負責啊跟我們報告像我們現在獨平審議委員會他也在法務部底下但是他的所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士來擔任獨立的審議委員會來審議他的獨立性客觀性也不容挑戰"},{"start":635.959,"end":650.645,"text":"所以沒有說未來制度設計上你不能這樣講啦你不能說啊因為我們找的人都很公正所以他就是一個獨立機關這種東西一個國家體制的設計當然有他的道理為什麼他要是獨立機關為什麼他現在在法務部下面的研究院研究院下面的委員會"},{"start":651.425,"end":665.754,"text":"那成績差那麼多對各位報告的確國家級的研究院的確是個目標但是我們現在剛有跟委員報告政策上我們先用二階段來實施第一階段先設在法務部我沒有看到二階段從103年一直到106年到113年我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下"},{"start":676.718,"end":701.732,"text":"我沒有看到所謂第二階段在哪裡啊當然是我們設在我們法務部底下之後未來評估是不是設在行政院未來評估從106年一直評估到現在113年你如果說世凱國師會議是去年開的你現在在說還在未來要評估我還相信你你現在已經106年研議到113年最後提出來的草案你說啊這個是二階段裡面的一個階段這個我看"},{"start":702.864,"end":703.164,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":589,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時48分）主席，我們是不是請部長？"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：部長早。今天本席很仔細地看了法務部的書面業務報告，有兩個問題要來跟部長請教。第一個是有關106年9月司改國是會議裡的一個決議，要求應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會，這其中當然有很多理由，最主要是要強化司法發現真實之能力，減少冤抑，這是當時司改國是會議的正式結論。從106年到現在民國113年了，當時司改會所做的決議是認為應該設立國家級司法科學委員會，這樣的一個結論，經過這麼多年，我在你們今天的這個業務報告裡面看到，國家級的司法科學委員會經過多年的研討跟研議，現在變成要以現在的法醫研究所改制，來做這個國家司法科學研究院，對不對？部長，現在是不是這個方向？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，是朝這個方向來努力，目前法醫研究所也在規劃進行中。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，我有整理這整個變化的過程，一個司改國是會議的結論，如何從一個國家級的司法科學委員會，到現在變成法務部所屬的司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程。在106年司改國是會議提出這個結論之後，法務部在107年、108年那時候就開始研議，舉辦了多次的可行性跟籌備會議，那時候一開始還叫籌備會議，就是朝國家級司法科學委員會的方向來籌備，但是從107年經過4年到110年之後，我們開始研議法醫研究所的改制，就是從國家級把它降到法務部所屬的法醫研究所的改制，這是110年的事情。又經過一年之後，法醫研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長，到112年法務部就把它報到行政院，就變成把原本司改國是會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關，你們最後的研議結果是法務部下屬由法醫研究院來改制，能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折？我知道你們在112年把組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改，修改之後在沒多久之前，今年8月你們已經把修改後的草案送行政院了對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這部分關於比較詳細的一個轉折，我是不是可以請法醫研究所所長來跟委員做一個……"],["沈委員發惠：不，法醫研究所他們也很用心的就法醫研究所如何改制，讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面能夠擴大到相關領域，我為什麼認為不是由法醫研究所來回答？因為這個是政策選擇，不是法醫研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用，而是我們的司改國是會議很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關，到現在卻變成法務部下屬，我想這最後還是一個政策的選擇，而不是法醫研究所他們的研究，他們的研究我整本都看完了，研究得相當詳細，但是畢竟法醫研究所不可能說他們研究出來的結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位，這個是不可能的，他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下，如何讓法醫研究所擴充它的職能，讓它能夠有稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的司法科技，只是這個方向而已，所以政策還是部長這邊要來清楚談一談。就現在國家的司法科學，那時候為什麼司改國是會議會做這樣的結論？現在不同的司法科學單位都分散在各個機關，包括法務部下面的法醫研究所、調查局裡面的鑑識科學處、警政署刑事警察局裡面有刑事警察局鑑識中心、國防部有國防部的鑑識中心、海洋委員會有海洋委員會的鑑識中心，這些都是各個單位所做出來的鑑識，並沒有一個國家級的認證，這就是為什麼那時候司改國是會議認為我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級統籌各個司法科學單位的機構，但是最後你們所做出來的結果還是這些單位都仍然存在，你們自己也還是這些單位當中的一個單位，這跟原本司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠。","我就用美國的例子，美國他們設置的一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC，他們把整個司法科學分成七大領域，在這七大領域裡面……我看我們的七大領域現在分散在各個單位，我們有關生物的部分分散在法醫研究所、刑事警察局、調查局，還有六都的刑事鑑識中心；有關物理及型態分析則是分散在刑事警察局、六都的刑事鑑定中心、海巡署還有國防部；現場勘查分散在刑事警察局、六都刑事鑑識中心、國防部；微物跡證分散在調查局、刑事警察局；法醫學在法醫研究所；數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部。針對這七大領域，我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構，部長，這樣子我們怎麼樣用法醫研究所的改制來取代獨立性的司法科學委員會，部長能不能說明？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實我也希望建立一個國家級的，也就是位階是在行政院的這個位階，然後把剛才委員所提到散落在各個機關的這些……"],["沈委員發惠：但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊！經過這麼多年，從106年到現在113年……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，本來有研議是設在行政院，但是因為行政院的委員會已經滿了，所以這個才沒辦法……是有這樣的一個因素……"],["沈委員發惠：次長要補充嗎？我看你一直躍躍欲試。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這其實是一個政策上的選擇，行政院當時在討論到底是要一階段來達成這個目標，還是分二階段來達成這個目標，在政策的選擇上，行政院決定用二階段來達成目標，第一階段就是現在法務部所提出來的版本，先設在法務部的一個委員會，接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的委員會。"],["沈委員發惠：但你們設在法務部之下，現在變成一個三級的機關，這樣子它的獨立性何在？在我來看，你們只是把法醫研究所改個名字，我看你們的組織法大概也是擴充幾個而已，把原本的組改成中心，把原本的法醫病醫組變成法醫中心，把原本的毒物化學組變成毒物鑑識中心，把原本的血清證物組變成生物認證中心，大概就是把組改成中心，然後增加一個綜合規劃中心以及新設一個司法科學研究教育中心，大概就是這樣子，沒有改變啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個委員會的組成，即使未來是法務部的三級機關，它還是有一個審議委員會獨立存在……"],["沈委員發惠：我現在就可以跟你討論這個審議委員會，你們把這個審議委員會……你所謂獨立存在，並不是獨立存在於國家架構……"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯，但是它是獨立運作。"],["沈委員發惠：它是在國家科學院的院長下面，它的層級還在國家科學院院長下面，原本應該是一個國家獨立的機關，你們把他拉到法務部的研究院下面，它所扮演的職能要怎麼樣具有公信力去做有關實驗室、人員資格的認證？有關司法科學教育、司法科學政策全部都由它負責啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，像我們現在毒品審議委員會，它也是在法務部底下，但是它所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士所組成的獨立審議委員會來審議，它的獨立性、客觀性也不容挑戰。沒有錯，未來制度設計上……"],["沈委員發惠：你不能這樣講啦，你不能說因為我們找的人都很公正，所以它就會是獨立機關，一個國家體制的設計當然有它的道理，為什它要是獨立機關？為什麼它現在是在法務部研究院下面的委員會，那個層級差那麼多！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，國家級研究院的確是一個目標，但是我們剛剛有跟委員報告，政策上我們先用二階段來實施，第一階段先設在法務部……"],["沈委員發惠：我沒有看到二階段，從106年一直到113年，我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關，然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下，我沒有看到所謂的第二階段在哪裡啊！"],["黃次長謀信：當然是設在法務部底下之後，未來評估是不是設在行政院。"],["沈委員發惠：未來評估？你從106年一直評估到現在113年，如果司改國是會議是去年開的，你現在在說未來要評估我還相信你，問題是已經從106年研議到113年，最後提出那個草案，你說這是二階段裡面的一個階段，我看這個也很難說服社會啦！","針對這個部分我們再進一步探討，我不是說法醫研究所的改制不好，我沒有說它不好，只是它跟司改國是會議當中，司法界大家的共識跟結論，實在是差太遠了，這個部分我們以後再進一步來討論。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝部長，謝謝次長。","接下來請羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","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,{"start":441.724,"end":459.331,"text":"所以你不能就說是我們外匯市場的干預什麼的我只是猜啦我猜這是不對啊請問你請問你你沒有那個A的原因在哪裡啦我跟委員報告第一個我們中央銀行當然是我要有"},{"start":460.55,"end":465.154,"text":"因為他今年的評比是以去年做基本的分析的狀況。去年我們的通膨是2.49。"},{"start":484.242,"end":485.023,"text":"因為這個通膨率跟這個經濟成長率這是每年的啦,每年波動啦"},{"start":505.842,"end":534.869,"text":"不過呢我也跟委員報告一個數據我們如果說不要用這個用這個連徵率的一個方式來比較的話如果說我們是用2020年就是我們COVID-19之前那一年做基期然後呢來看看我們的到2023年的經濟的成長率因為我時間有限了那個總裁你講這麼多是不是隱約我感覺到你的無奈"},{"start":536.41,"end":539.792,"text":"我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我..."},{"start":561.591,"end":568.698,"text":"還是不服氣的接受?還是含怨接受?含恨接受?我們虛心檢討,含怨接受,永遠繼續努力。你說整隊喔?你說整隊?"},{"start":580.368,"end":598.977,"text":"所以要什麼影響什麼什麼等等,阿讓彭總裁冒這個原因阿,他都得14個A、15個A,對不對,所以這個東西阿,楊總裁,這個東西阿我要,我要在這裡阿,來跟委員報告,我要佩服我們彭總裁,我佩服他阿這如果沒在這裡沒關係啦,他要跟你看阿"},{"start":600.737,"end":611.244,"text":"最後一個問題最後一個問題這個卓榮泰院長說要研議金融兵推我就請問你喔如果真的打仗了台灣有多少錢可以投入按照我們的戰爭準備金有多少你知道嗎"},{"start":630.497,"end":644.586,"text":"因為我告訴委員就是說整個冰天這是整個政府的一個機制但是我要跟委員報告就中央銀行的部分我們隨時隨時的都是在準備"},{"start":645.507,"end":658.004,"text":"所以在這裏我相信就是說在這一個部分我們都是...這問題很簡單大家最關心的你會不會進行外匯管制?這個我想在這個場合裏面我們也不必要講這個"},{"start":666.131,"end":691.737,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說在中央銀行的這個部分因為政府是整體的中央銀行的部分我們把你站在中央銀行角度那我站在小老百姓的角度你再告訴我們一句話然後我就下去來你告訴我們老百姓萬一打造了老百姓資產怎麼保護最好這個我沒辦法跟委員報告這大家不要栽換美金啊"},{"start":693.047,"end":695.708,"text":"我只能跟委員報告我們央行都有做妥適的準備我不敢置評這是委員的看法"},{"start":719.212,"end":721.395,"text":"謝謝賴司寶委員 接著請郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時45分）謝謝主席，有請央行總裁楊總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：早。今天的題目主席排得很好，是第七波的信用管制，針對打炒房。雖然你說有些寬限之類的，所謂的寬限期把它排除掉，但是我就請問你，外界都認為效果好像不怎麼樣，沒什麼感覺，大家覺得這個「金龍海嘯」好像要變成「金蛇」，覺得不怎麼樣，沒有想像中那麼可怕，你要不要講一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：你的意思就是說力道不夠重的意思？"],["賴委員士葆：沒有什麼感覺。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想……"],["賴委員士葆：我先講一句話，其實就是超額儲蓄太多，請問你，超額儲蓄多少錢？idle cash有多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的儲蓄有幾兆啦！"],["賴委員士葆：幾兆？4兆。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，4兆。"],["賴委員士葆：以前二點多兆，到現在4兆，臺灣的錢太多了，你怎麼搞也是搞不到結果啦！你講一下，剛才對不起把你打斷。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我想這是一個概念的問題，超額的儲蓄會反應在哪裡呢？超額的儲蓄會反應在我們經常帳順差，經常帳順差裡面很大部分就是我們的貿易帳，大部分的超額儲蓄都是貿易帳所造成的，而貿易帳所造成的這些錢大部分都是用外幣握有，所以我跟委員報告，大部分都是外幣握有就是資金的外流，我們如果說有順差的話就是資金外流，所以也不是說這些超額儲蓄都全部到不動產去，不是這麼一回事。所以我跟委員報告我們的壽險業為什麼會在國外投資、我們的ETF、國內的信託，這些都是因為我們貿易的順差，貿易順差就是握有外幣啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我的時間有限，你就簡單回答，讓大家聽得懂。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我的意思是……"],["賴委員士葆：第一個，現在有沒有效果啦？效果出來沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：效果不會今天下去就出現……"],["賴委員士葆：還沒有出來嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們要慢慢的來評估，慢慢的來看。"],["賴委員士葆：那你總是有些觀察指標，你希望是軟著陸還是硬著陸？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們觀察。那當然是要軟著陸。"],["賴委員士葆：當然要軟著陸，這是我多問了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我很誠心的跟委員報告，當預期心理非常強的時候就會都非常強，現在我們的第一步是什麼？我們的第一步當然不是說要讓它軟著陸，沒有，第一步是要讓它的預期心理轉回來。"],["賴委員士葆：要穩健。"],["楊總裁金龍：慢慢的才會下來。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才說你誠懇跟我講，我也很誠懇跟你講，請問你，總是要看到成效，你心目中覺得第七波多久可以看到成效？三個月可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：成效要多久我很難去估測，我很誠實的告訴委員。"],["賴委員士葆：我也很誠實的跟你講，三個月看不到，人家說這沒有用，三個月看不到效果，不然半年可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：再看看嘛！我們會持續密切注意。"],["賴委員士葆：比如說半年內，半年其實很長，我講半年我自己都不好意思了，如果半年都看不到成效……"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說從某些方式來看、從某些市場來看，半年也許太長，但是我們的房地產比較特殊。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你看，我做球給你，半年剛剛好，半年後來看交易量、平均價格等等的指標，總裁，如果半年後和現在差不多，一樣不怎麼樣，你會不會不排除第八波？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在就在講第八波是怎麼樣、要第八波等等，我總覺得還是言之過早。"],["賴委員士葆：你的答案我替你把它簡單的小結，觀察半年以後再看，這樣可以嗎？我這樣的講法你接受嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：反正我們持續觀察……"],["賴委員士葆：我講觀察半年啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：也不必要設時點，我們持續觀察啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我就說半年，給你觀察半年。"],["楊總裁金龍：持續觀察。"],["賴委員士葆：好。講到這個，我都替你難過，你今年為什麼沒拿到A？你已經四個A了，大家都以為會有第五個A，結果呢？等一下，我找了老半天，我看一下就覺得奇怪，楊金龍總裁就做得不錯啊，結果人家對你的分析是，因為你跟全世界的趨勢背道而行，人家在降或者不升，你卻升了；人家在降，你也不降，然後我們還被公布為匯率操縱國的觀察名單。簡單來講就是，在你的主政底下，中央銀行的政策不夠自由化，或者是自由化不夠透明，或者是有太多的人為干預，所以你今年沒拿到A，是不是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：這一點我來跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：你不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會變成觀察名單，主要是兩項……"],["賴委員士葆：那個沒關係啦！那個不用討論。"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，跟外匯市場沒有關係，因為剛剛你說沒有透明什麼的，你看我們很透明啊！我們在市場我們賣……我們很透明，我們都報告啦！但是我們成為觀察名單，主要是兩項，包括我剛剛跟委員報告的，我們的經常帳……"],["賴委員士葆：外貿出超太多啦！占GDP比例太高了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦！講到都可以背了。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以你不能說是我們外匯市場干預什麼的，導致被列為觀察名單……"],["賴委員士葆：我只是猜啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：這是不對啊！"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，你沒有拿到A的原因在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，第一個，我們中央銀行，當然是我，仍有持續進步的空間，這是第一點。第二點，我也是在猜，我也是覺得很納悶，可能是因為去年，因為他今年的評比是以去年做基本的分析狀況，去年我們的通膨是2.49。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是通膨太高？"],["楊總裁金龍：然後我們經濟成長是1.28，這個是我個人猜啦！"],["賴委員士葆：所以GDP不好、CPI太高，是不是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不過我也要跟委員報告，因為通膨率跟經濟成長率是每年波動的，不過我也跟委員報告一個數據，我們如果不要用年增率的方式來比較，而是用2020年，就是COVID-19之前的那一年做基期來看我們到2023年的經濟成長率……"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！因為我的時間有限，總裁，你講這麼多，我有隱約感覺到你的無奈、不接受，是不是這樣講？有沒有感覺委屈？"],["楊總裁金龍：我第一點已經有提過，我們有精進的空間，我已經講了第一點就是這個啦！我沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：對於這樣的結果你有沒有感覺委屈？"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我們也要分析啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有感覺委屈？有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是不會啦！不會委屈。"],["賴委員士葆：默默接受？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得我們要接受，而且我們要往前走。"],["賴委員士葆：還是不服氣的接受？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：還是含怨接受、含恨接受？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我這樣形容可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們虛心檢討……"],["賴委員士葆：虛心檢討，含怨接受？"],["楊總裁金龍：虛心接受。"],["賴委員士葆：明年繼續努力。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，明年繼續努力。"],["賴委員士葆：因為你說了一大堆，什麼因素影響等等，但彭總裁也有這個原因啊！他拿了14個A、15個A，對不對？所以楊總裁，這個東西……"],["楊總裁金龍：我要在這裡跟委員報告，我佩服彭總裁，我佩服他！"],["賴委員士葆：他現在人不在這裡，沒關係啦！他沒在看，你稱讚他，他也聽不到。再努力一點啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，當然。"],["賴委員士葆：你拿A是我們臺灣的面子。","最後一個問題，我把這個問題問完。卓榮泰院長說要研議金融兵推，我就請問你，如果真的打仗了，臺灣有多少錢可以投入？你知道我們的戰爭準備金有多少嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我告訴委員，兵推是整個政府的機制，對不對？但是我要跟委員報告，就中央銀行的部分，我們隨時都在準備，所以我相信在這個部分，我們都是……"],["賴委員士葆：我的問題很簡單，大家最關心的是，你會不會進行外匯管制？會不會？一定要有啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我想在這個場合裡面，我們也不必要講這個。"],["賴委員士葆：兵推，怎麼不必要？卓院長說要講兵推，你說不要講。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，因為政府是整體的，在中央銀行的部分，我們會把中央銀行的部分做好。"],["賴委員士葆：你站在中央銀行的角度，那我站在小老百姓的角度，你就告訴我們一句話，我就下去。你告訴我們，萬一打仗的話，老百姓的資產要怎麼保護最好？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我沒辦法跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：大家都知道，就換美金啊！可以吧？我這樣講沒有錯吧？請問你，有沒有錯？"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒辦法跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：換美金，烏克蘭一打仗就貶值25%，臺灣一打仗，臺幣絕對貶值，趕快換美金或者買全球的ETF，就是這樣而已。"],["楊總裁金龍：我只能跟委員報告，我們央行都有做妥適的準備。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我剛剛講的話有沒有錯？換美金對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不敢置評，這是委員的看法。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你拿不到A，你不敢講會拿不到A喔！"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接著請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},{"id":"155665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30654528158db3acc82960efc051a48f2135a9373a247fb1bb1c4daafd34e6f2862c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:46:22 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這個部長"},{"start":93.738,"end":97.395,"text":"糧食自給率已經創下新低,您同意吧?"},{"start":99.36,"end":126.478,"text":"吃稻米的這個量也是歷史上的新低吃蔬菜的量也是歷史上的新低反而現在大家吃了很多的肉類對不對所以台灣的稻米產量過剩這個是不爭的事實我們的吃米的量其實是非常少再加上種植公糧所以你每年會產生大量的純糧"},{"start":128.719,"end":145.687,"text":"每一年大概20萬公噸基本最少那好玩的來囉全球都在缺米結果台灣的稻米產量是過剩日本大缺米日本在鬧白米荒他的庫存量是17年來最低"},{"start":146.969,"end":162.64,"text":"市長,你們有沒有想過啊我們現在一直講說我們的水果可以外銷日本外銷到其他的國家去如果台灣的糧食問題台灣的米糧的存貨是多的話有沒有可能我們來鼓勵農民"},{"start":165.582,"end":179.459,"text":"種植優質米然後鼓勵他們外銷到其他的世界各國去那我看到你們的預算裡頭其實有所謂的外銷的價格補助嘛對不對如果這個誘因再給他提高"},{"start":180.48,"end":201.307,"text":"讓更多人願意去種植優質米,讓更多人願意把這樣的好的台灣米銷到世界各國去,甚至當比較久的這些所謂的公糧米,你如果能夠送到開發中的國家去,或者是有一些需要物資救援的國家去,你其實可以做好事。不用說30塊20幾塊買來的公糧,把它拍做吃了,10塊又賣不出去。"},{"start":206.363,"end":225.532,"text":"部長您同意我的建議嗎?我想謝謝委員的提醒跟指正我想分兩個部分公糧的部分我們盡可能的不要讓它變成飼料米所以我們會針對一些原住的或是其他的部分第二個部分就是您剛才講的很重要的一點就是稻米其實也是可以外銷的"},{"start":226.392,"end":236.316,"text":"但是外銷一定要有比較好的一個品牌跟品質這是非常重要的所以我才一直強調我們的優質米比如說我們的美濃147米時尚米等等台灣優質的米我們的這個農改所裡頭大家這個專家研發出來好的這些稻米我覺得就趁這個機會把它推銷出去嘛我們不用一直在這裡講說哎呀公糧收購公糧的價格要提高多少其實我們是應該鼓勵優質的"},{"start":258.468,"end":273.924,"text":"我非常同意我們的政策目標也是讓農民從量的重視變成質的重視這樣的話後續的品牌米跟優質的米才能夠有機會不只是供應給國內的也可以外交到其他的國家"},{"start":274.545,"end":300.823,"text":"所以如果公糧的收購價格不提高我覺得你從另外一個方式去下手讓更多的農民受惠我覺得農業部要一直不斷的去讓大家知道現在一直在講公糧的收購價格提高公糧的收購價格提高5塊錢你受益的人數大概了不起12萬是占全體農民49萬50萬裡頭只有占大概"},{"start":304.985,"end":321.155,"text":"5分之1只有12萬人受益但是你的預算增加要增加91億到116億這個是看你的種植面積你必須增加這麼多的預算那你現在推的所謂的一級二轉3加3"},{"start":322.156,"end":333.787,"text":"你可以受惠到22.5萬的稻農我講只有稻農喔受惠稻農但是你只要花16.5億就可以讓22萬的稻農都受到幫助"},{"start":338.107,"end":363.109,"text":"我不知道這個計算為什麼大家會聽不懂然後剛剛有很多的委員或者是說等一下可能國民黨的委員還會再上來問你我想要請教雲林嘉義種植的雜糧雜糧的價格幾年沒調整了雜糧的農民要不要照顧他們不敢提這一塊台中彰化的花卉花農要不要照顧不敢提這一塊"},{"start":364.21,"end":374.322,"text":"你只把全部的錢都放在公糧收購5塊錢但是得到好處是誰?糧商、代更業者、肥料業者農民真的有收到好處嗎?沒有啊!你的公糧收購價格多5塊錢"},{"start":383.905,"end":410.647,"text":"待耕業者的待耕成本就會增加工錢就會增加嘛肥料就會增加嘛你所有的人工成本都會增加嘛但是你實際的農民你有沒有拿到多身家的錢沒有耶所以我覺得這個觀念的轉變齁其實是很重要的我們如何讓最小的預算花下去能夠照顧最多的農民這個才是政府應該要做的事情不是嗎你要花116億結果只有照顧12萬人"},{"start":412.748,"end":430.395,"text":"這12萬人還不見得是他們真的拿到錢你花了16.5億你可以照顧到22.5萬的人然後你還可以增加台灣的糧食自給率你還可以讓台灣的優質稻米輸出你還可以增加台灣的好民生甚至創造台灣的外匯"},{"start":432.628,"end":453.522,"text":"所以我不太懂得他們是怎麼計算啊所以我是公開反對公糧收購價格還要再增加5塊那我也公開反對要利用這樣子去綁架政府的總預算甚至綁架所有的農業預算如果口口聲聲說照顧農民的話你更不應該綁架這個預算"},{"start":455.063,"end":475.401,"text":"好部長這一題我跟您討論到這邊接下來我要跟您討論到國土計劃法上次我們討論到這個農業部要推所謂的堆疊式的給付政策你們原來講說9月的時候就要公布這個堆疊式的給付內容可是到現在10月了還沒有看到是不是在中間有遇到什麼問題可不可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":476.089,"end":499.362,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們在對賊是己夫的部分在內部已經規劃好了那規劃好我們會預計會在這個月就開始會對外的去做一些座談跟溝通我們不希望說我們設計完了以後就去做說明我們希望說在溝通的過程中有哪一些先到地方上去做說明先到地方上去做說明然後聽取一些意見再做調整"},{"start":500.603,"end":523.55,"text":"我們已經有了初步的一個規劃了所以我們近期就會啟動這樣的一個方式那你的這個所謂的堆疊式補助他應該不會是跟國土計畫法綁在一起的吧對他應該是假如說你的整體規劃完成他是可行的是不是應該會是在國土計畫法上路之前就開始對於農地有做這樣子的堆疊式的補助"},{"start":525.471,"end":542.603,"text":"我們對農業政策的實施它不會跟國土計畫綁在一起不管國土計畫如期或延後都不會影響到我們我們只要這樣的一個方式得到大家的認可我們就會去推動好 謝謝部長因為我時間已經到了我本來還有一題農業保險的有私下我再跟您請教"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":160,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時46分）謝謝主席。我是不是請一下陳部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長好。部長，我想今天召委再度排定讓您來報告有關公糧收購價格提高這件事情，我記得上個會期結束前，在立法院表決的時候，我是代表民進黨黨團上來發言，原則上我是反對公糧收購價格提高，現在的公糧，我想請教一下部長，今年的公糧種植面積是多少？跟去年相比起來是增加還是減少？"],["陳部長駿季：大概24萬公頃左右，一、二期作加起來。比去年多了差不多一萬多公頃。"],["邱委員議瑩：又多了一萬公頃？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，很顯然的，我這樣說啦，你推「1集、2轉、3加3」，看起來並沒有達到對農民的吸引力嘛！他還是選擇去種植公糧，這是比較快速能夠增加產量、增加收入的方式，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們「1集、2轉、3加3」是明年一期作開始推動。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。部長，糧食自給率已經創下新低，您同意吧？吃稻米的這個量，也是歷史上的新低；吃蔬菜的量，也是歷史上的新低，反而現在大家吃了很多的肉類，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以臺灣的稻米產量過剩，這是不爭的事實，我們吃米的量其實是非常少嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：再加上種植公糧，所以你每年會產生大量的存糧，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：大概每一年基本、最少是20萬公噸。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，那麼好玩的來囉！全球都在缺米，結果臺灣的稻米產量是過剩，日本大缺米、日本在鬧白米荒，他的庫存量是17年來最低。部長，你們有沒有想過，我們現在一直講我們的水果可以外銷日本、外銷到其他的國家，如果臺灣的糧食問題，臺灣米糧的存貨是多的話，有沒有可能我們來鼓勵農民種植優質米、鼓勵他們外銷到其他的世界各國？我看到你們的預算裡頭，其實有所謂外銷的價格補助，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果這個誘因再給它提高，讓更多人願意去種植優質米、讓更多人願意把這樣好的臺灣米銷到世界各國去，甚至放比較久的這些所謂公糧米，你如果能夠送到開發中的國家，或者是有一些需要物資救援的國家，你其實可以做好事，不用讓30塊、二十幾塊買來的公糧，把它打做飼料，10塊還賣不出去。部長，您同意我的建議方向嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒跟指正，我想分兩個部分，公糧的部分，我們盡可能不要讓它變成飼料米，所以我們會針對一些援助的或是其他的部分。第二個部分就是您剛才講到很重要的一點，就是稻米其實也是可以外銷的。"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是外銷一定要有比較好的品牌跟品質，這是非常重要的。"],["邱委員議瑩：沒錯！所以我才一直強調我們的優質米，比如我們的美濃147米、池上米等等臺灣優質的米，我們農改所裡頭專家研發出來好的這些稻米，我覺得就趁這個機會把它推銷出去，我們不用一直在這裡講：哎呀！公糧收購的價格要提高多少。其實我們是應該鼓勵優質的農產種植，包括促銷，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常同意，我們的政策目標也是讓農民從量的重視變成質的重視，這樣的話，後續的品牌米跟優質的米才能夠有機會……"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["陳部長駿季：不只是供應給國內，也可以外銷到其他的國家。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，所以如果公糧的收購價格不提高，我覺得你從另外一個方式去下手，讓更多的農民受惠，我覺得農業部要一直不斷地去讓大家知道。現在一直在講公糧的收購價格提高，公糧的收購價格提高5塊錢，你受益的人數大概了不起是12萬。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：在全體49萬、50萬個農民裡頭，只占了大概五分之一。"],["陳部長駿季：大概五分之一。"],["邱委員議瑩：只有12萬人受益。但是你的預算要增加91億到116億，這個是看你的種植面積，你必須要增加這麼多的預算，你現在推所謂的「1集、2轉、3加3」……"],["陳部長駿季：16.5億。"],["邱委員議瑩：你可以讓22.5萬個稻農受惠，我講的受惠只有「稻農」，但是你只要花16.5億就可以22萬個稻農都受到幫助。我不知道這個計算為什麼大家會聽不懂？然後剛剛有很多委員，或者等一下可能會有國民黨的委員還會再上來問你，我想要請教，雲林、嘉義種植的雜糧，其價格幾年沒調整了？雜糧的農民要不要照顧？他們不敢提這一塊；臺中、彰化的花卉，花農要不要照顧？不敢提這一塊。你只把全部的錢都放在公糧收購5塊錢上，但是得到好處的是誰？是糧商、代耕業者、肥料業者，農民真的有收到好處嗎？沒有啊！你的公糧收購價格多5塊錢，代耕業者的代耕成本就會增加，工錢就會增加嘛！肥料就會增加嘛！你所有的人工成本都會增加嘛！但是實際上農民有沒有拿到多增加的錢？沒有耶！所以我覺得這個觀念的轉變其實是很重要的，我們要如何將最小的預算花下去，能夠照顧最多的農民？這個才是政府應該要做的事情，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：你要花116億，結果只有照顧12萬人，這12萬人還不見得真的有拿到錢。你花了16.5億可以照顧到22.5萬個人，然後你還可以增加臺灣的糧食自給率，你還可以讓臺灣的優質稻米輸出，還可以增加臺灣的好名聲，甚至是創造臺灣的外匯，何樂而不為？所以我是不太懂他們是怎麼計算的，我是公開反對公糧收購價格還要再增加5塊，我也公開反對要利用這樣子去綁架政府的總預算，甚至是綁架所有的農業預算。如果口口聲聲說要照顧農民的話，你更不應該綁架這個預算。部長，這一題我跟你討論到這邊。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：接下來我要跟你討論國土計畫法，上次我們討論到農業部要推所謂堆疊式的給付政策，你們原來講9月的時候就要公布這個堆疊式的給付內容，可是到現在10月了還沒有看到，是不是中間有遇到什麼問題，可不可以請部長說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，事實上堆疊式給付的部分，在內部已經規劃好了，我們預計會在這個月就開始對外進行座談跟溝通，我們不希望設計完以後就去做說明，我們希望在溝通的過程中，有哪一些……"],["邱委員議瑩：先到地方上去做說明，跟農民溝通協調嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，做說明，聽取一些意見再做調整，所以我們已經有了初步的規劃，近期就會啟動這樣的一個方式。"],["邱委員議瑩：你這個所謂的堆疊式補助應該不會跟國土計畫法綁在一起吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：假如你整體規劃完成，它是可行的，是不是應該會是在國土計畫法上路之前就開始對農地做堆疊式的補助？"],["陳部長駿季：我們堆疊式給付對農業政策的實施，不會跟國土計畫綁在一起，不管國土計畫如期或延後，都不會影響到我們，只要這樣的一個方式得到大家的認可，我們就會去推動。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，因為我的時間已經到了，本來我還有一題有關農業保險的，我私下再跟您請教，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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比較好笑的是"},{"start":529.614,"end":550.19,"text":"其中這個就業安定基金啊就業安定基金是最大幅度禁用非典型勞工承攬34人而且他是就業安定基金你套在安定這兩個字不是很荒謬嗎你就業安定然後你去找非典型勞工所以他光是在就業安定基金就增加了8000多萬"},{"start":552.231,"end":565.905,"text":"那你一方面花了這麼多錢說要降低非典型勞工協助他們轉正職一方面多編了這些錢九千多萬去增加你們勞動部自己的非典型承攬的人力你覺得這樣合理嗎我們確實真的這方面是因為我們組織內部"},{"start":574.685,"end":600.408,"text":"人總在這邊我們確實就是在我們的組織內部因為我們正式人員缺乏所以就都大量禁用承攬那因為我們的這個在預算緣合上面有控管我們正式緣合其實被合組的很少因為你現在也要督導每一個部門減少他們的非典勞工如果你自己都做不到那別人的我承認我們是非典大戶"},{"start":602.386,"end":621.146,"text":"因為委員就是我們整個政府機關都有這樣的困境就是我們在正式原額的都有被控管因為政府精簡的需要所以你去督導別人的時候別人跟你講現在一模一樣的理由你應該要怎麼辦呢是我們應該要來跟我們要跟上級長官反映啦我們要跟行政院反映這個問題那你編這麼多錢"},{"start":624.289,"end":646.486,"text":"這兩邊是互相抵觸的,我希望你要不要提出一個月內提出一個檢討。我們應該是這樣,我們有在,剛剛之前我也都推詢,就是包括承攬人力的薪水提升啦,這個我們是可以馬上做的,就是我們讓承攬的人力也能讓他符合所有的勞動條件,因為承攬有時候也未必是那麼"},{"start":647.327,"end":647.467,"text":"邀請勞動部部長"},{"start":662.932,"end":687.331,"text":"改善承攬的勞動條件我也會很想要知道說你未來要怎麼協助這個越來越多你們自己勞動部裡面的這些非典勞工轉正職你們有什麼具體的做法或者目標策略非典勞工轉正職就牽涉到行政院的整個政府的這個預算源額的問題這個是整個我們要必須跟行政院反應澄清"},{"start":687.751,"end":687.931,"text":"陳婉嫻委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":332,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時40分）謝謝主席，謝謝各位委員、官員，我也想請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：今年的10月10號叫做世界心理健康日，今年的主題是職場心理健康，因為全世界的國家都發現，在疫情的時候，大家的情緒壓力是增加的，可是疫情後大家紛紛要返回職場，但現在也有很多空缺都還補不上。","這裡有一個local的數據顯示了臺灣民眾常見精神疾患的分布，大概憂鬱、焦慮在30到45歲的族群中盛行率最高，平均每4位就有一位；青壯世代的部分，從就診的紀錄就可以看到精神醫療使用的提升，105年到111年從7.4%增加到9.5%，成長率達到27%，這群人其實跟我們勞動部所關心的族群非常重疊的，就是525萬人的青壯世代。所以為了響應今年這種職場心理健康，許多團體……我等一下會舉很多團體做出來的問卷。有一個臺灣心理健康聯盟發布的職場心理健康調查，高達76%的比例認為工作壓力危害心理健康，也呼籲希望可以倡導彈性工時給職場的爸媽，還有親職假等等的議題，這些都超過九成的民眾支持。我相信部長跟我一樣，應該都在這76%裡面，是不是？工作壓力有點危害到心理健康，是吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我們都有壓力。"],["陳委員菁徽：我想問一下，你知道衛福部針對15到45歲，今年也是因應這個主題，所以推出了一個擴大心理健康支持方案，免費有3次的心理健康諮詢。你知道勞動部為我們廣大的勞工在職場的心理健康，比如職場霸凌等等，做了什麼具體的措施嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們的預防重建中心每年可以提供6次的心理諮商服務，而且我們還在臉書幫它宣傳。"],["陳委員菁徽：你說幫衛福部宣傳？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，是幫我們，那是我們自己的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。這個是從2015年開始做，擴大跟67家心理諮商來合作，而且我覺得做的比衛福部更多次，因為你是每年6次，它是一生3次，你知道這個方案執行的效果怎麼樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：需要宣導、宣傳，再更多推廣，因為確實從111年到112年才服務622人次，太少了。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，沒有比較，沒有傷害。我放兩個slide給你看，這邊是另外一個關於臺灣職場心理健康問卷的調查結果，2023亞洲心理健康指數報告發現有82%的員工有心理健康風險，裡面高度的大概是35%，中度大概是47%，在臺灣跟亞洲的數據也有點像，就像我剛剛跟你講的，75%的填答者都認為工作壓力對於身心健康有負面的影響。所以我們簡單算一下，全國如果1,200萬勞工，75%是900萬，這些人可能會有心理諮商的需求，但是我們退一步講，一半就好了，所以可能是600萬。我們來看你的數據，近3年你編了預算，還用不到預算……當然，我覺得你編的預算也不夠，滿少的，但是你編這樣子的錢還用不到一半多一點點。從近3年看，111年239人，第二年383人，到目前923人，我希望今年可以破……"],["何部長佩珊：今年成長比較多啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：我希望今年可以，但是你的預算用不掉。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員，這應該要加強。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的立意很良好，可是預算用不掉，這個很慘，因為這個族群你也承認……"],["何部長佩珊：是非常有需要。"],["陳委員菁徽：職場的心理健康是很需要的，我等一下會告訴你哪邊需要改善。我們來跟衛福部比，衛福部去年8月針對15到30歲提出了年輕族群心理健康方案，因為青少年現在自殺率開始升高，不到1年他們已經服務超過2萬9,000人，還轉介高風險就醫，受益者超過1萬人，所以他們還從裡面抓到了高風險的，趕快轉到醫療機構去。因為辦得太好，這也是少數衛福部評價96%滿意度的計畫，滿意度好到他們擴大到45歲，我也很希望勞動部可以推出一個令人有感的好計畫……"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：而且你們是從2015年開始喔！衛福部的族群TA這麼廣，衛福部裡面有老人、有病人、有三高的人，大家知道要去用；勞動部的職場心理健康方案，它的族群就是勞動部這麼簡單，結果勞動部的人居然不知道，也沒有人去用。這件事情要不要跟他們學習一下到底要怎麼宣導？"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。我上任以後有發現這個事，所以我先請同仁在勞動部自己的官網、臉書也幫忙宣傳這個活動。主要是對於勞工職場的心理復健這個定義，我想我們也不要太拘泥，因為我們一直都會拘泥於一定要定義他是因為工作，才能讓他去做心理諮商……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，你知道嗎？失業的人是不能用你們的服務的。"],["何部長佩珊：失業，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：他現在必須要有一個工作。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊，所以我覺得這是一個應該要改進的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說一下……"],["何部長佩珊：如果我們能夠像衛福部那麼地全面性，因為它可能是用健保吧。"],["陳委員菁徽：它不是，它是補助。"],["何部長佩珊：是公務預算，所有的青少年，只要年齡符合的話就可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也希望你可以重視今年全世界很重視的職場心理健康。"],["何部長佩珊：好，委員，我們來改進我們自己這個計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也具體分享一下我們來試用這個計畫的經驗。我10月初請我們辦公室同仁打到職災預防重建中心的北部勞工健康辦公室，他首先告訴我們要先經過他們的評估，評估完才可以知道我們符不符合補助這6次諮商。好，10月初打電話，但是他說10月的評估已經全部滿了，所以他給我的時間是11月中到11月底中間一個平日的早上，要我們在這個時間過來評估，評估完以後再告訴我們可不可以獲得後面的6次諮商。"],["何部長佩珊：評估、再評估。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛已經講到這個心理健康是一個比較緊急的狀態……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：從10月初就已經約到一個11月中的時間……"],["何部長佩珊：這應該要改進。"],["陳委員菁徽：又是規定在一個上班時間。從我們之前軍人、警察自殺，就已經知道他們就不想要被長官知道，當然，我可以合法地說我預約勞動部的服務，要去做心理諮商，但是軍人就是有這個問題，警察也有這個問題，所以他們才做不好。他們不敢跟老闆講的話，永遠這個評估都做不到，不但預約不到、很難預約，而且是一個很不友善的時間。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個也請你們回去檢討，好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：我想要講一下，今天有一題是講到非典型工作者，你們是不是有宣示4年要投入160億去協助這些非典的工作者轉正職？因為他們已經大規模地突破80萬，創新高了。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：我幫你找出來114年你們勞動部編列的預算，勞動部跟你們所屬機關的公務預算還有所屬的特種基金所進用的非典型承攬人力，在人數上還有在支出的經費上，你猜增加多少？人數是增加35人，經費是增加了九千多萬，比較好笑的是，其中就業安定基金是最大幅度進用非典型勞工承攬34人，而且它是就業安定基金，套在「安定」這兩個字不是很荒謬嗎？你是就業安定基金，然後你去找非典型勞工，所以光是在就業安定基金就增加了八千多萬。你一方面花了這麼多錢，說要降低非典型勞工，協助他們轉正職，一方面多編了這些錢、九千多萬去增加你們勞動部自己的非典型承攬人力，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，人總也在這邊，這方面確實是因為我們組織內部正式人員缺乏，所以就都大量進用承攬。因為我們在預算員額上面有控管，我們正式員額其實被核准的很少……"],["陳委員菁徽：你現在也要督導每一個部門減少他們的非典勞工，如果你自己都做不到，那別人怎麼……"],["何部長佩珊：我承認我們是非典大戶。委員，我們整個政府機關都有這樣的困境，就是我們的正式員額都有被控管，因為政府精簡的需要。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你去督導別人的時候，別人跟你講現在一模一樣的理由，你應該要怎麼辦呢？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們應該要跟上級長官反映，我們要跟行政院反映這個問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：你編這麼多錢，這兩邊是互相牴觸的，你要不要一個月內提出一個檢討……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們應該是這樣，之前委員都垂詢了，就是包括承攬人力的薪水提升，這個是我們可以馬上做的，就是讓承攬的人力也能符合所有的勞動條件，因為承攬有時候也未必是那麼差的勞動條件，承攬有時候其實是一個比較彈性的人力運用方式，他如果勞動條件好的話……現在因為體制要改變很困難，我們來努力改善承攬的勞動條件。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也很想要知道你未來要怎麼協助越來越多勞動部裡面的這些非典勞工轉正職，你們有什麼具體的作法或是目標、策略？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，非典勞工轉正職會牽涉到行政院整個政府的預算員額問題，我們必須要跟行政院反映、陳情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們希望你帶頭示範你自己提出來的政見，好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155663","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155663","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30659b99c9ea188caaf0bc7d127954dabfa1a9373a247fb1bb1c2cf89a319f4586af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:30:27 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謝謝主席麻煩我們的行政院人事行政總處的副人事長副人事長好 早行政院大概在111年大概就是幫軍工叫調薪到4%那今年要再調4%那今年的調薪除了本縫以外還有專業家籍也是相當幅度有去調整"},{"start":37.851,"end":57.884,"text":"預計114年還要再調3%這次25年來首次連續2年調整我覺得在人力荒的狀態裡邊這的確事實上是很需要的因為很多工人員也是面臨到請不到人留不住人的問題所以我覺得本席非常肯定的是行政院的這樣的一個積極作為"},{"start":61.55,"end":73.954,"text":"可是今年的調薪大家都很開心誰不開心呢?只有公職的醫事人員不開心為什麼?調薪的結果以公務員的檢期值等來看的話公立的醫療機構跟公立學校的專業加級"},{"start":77.779,"end":96.554,"text":"比其他我們的專業人員還要低那所以想問一下覺得臺灣社會應該沒有人會去否定醫事人員的一個專業而且在整體的公務人員專業家級裡邊可是醫事人員卻是最低的這有一些歧視的問題可是想問一下為什麼會這樣這個部分我了解衛福部在檢討中他們9月底好像有開過會都會追蹤這個問題"},{"start":109.52,"end":128.486,"text":"公職的醫事人員不是只有專業家級整個原本定就已經比其他職類低那甚至在這次在調薪的時候也會看到專業家級整個的幅度上其他職類的條幅事實上是在6.2%到12.8%可是公職醫事人員為什麼只有4%所以想問是"},{"start":136.748,"end":158.484,"text":"醫事人員專業佳績比人家低今年大家都在調整專業佳績的時候調整的幅度還是比別人低請問是什麼原因那是對醫事人員我們的衛福部沒有意見嗎所以當時人總在討論醫事人員這種薪資的時候到底衛福部針對這樣專業佳績如此低衛福部沒有表示意見嗎"},{"start":160.919,"end":186.084,"text":"因為剛好調薪的時候那個階段我們正好要檢討那個專業價值表表一並表二所以這個有些你會覺得說有些為什麼比較高那是因為剛好他的專業價值表表一並表二的關係那我先問你衛福部有表當時有表示意見嗎是你們人種不同意還是怎樣為什麼從前面就已經低然後真的在調薪的時候跌上來還是最低的"},{"start":187.789,"end":210.438,"text":"因為如果是通案調整待遇大概就是我們有一個待遇審議委員會那大概這個部分我們力量大概沒有要衛福部啦我們大概要財主單位還有專家學者來討論那這個部分就是我覺得COVID-19的時候醫療人員、醫事人員對我們來講都非常的重要可是卻對他們來講最不友善"},{"start":212.619,"end":235.73,"text":"而且公立學校的護理師的專業家級又比其他單位的醫事人員少這是對公立學校的護理師而言他事實上是40班以下聘一個人我們現在以一個學校2500的話他大概1000人只有一個護士他要去這樣的照顧別學生上學裡邊如果碰到任何狀況"},{"start":236.61,"end":239.832,"text":"請勞動部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益"},{"start":266.212,"end":290.366,"text":"進一步的反應嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告就是說那個衛福部在9月底邀請包括教育部也邀請一起在研究這個在討論9月30號不是開會了嗎?有開會有衛福部那開會的結果是什麼?教育部也在研議看要怎麼調整那衛福部呢?也是啊"},{"start":291.465,"end":315.494,"text":"也是要等 那要等什麼時候呢所以同樣是護理師在衛生所跟在學校要做的事情一樣每個月我們的學校護理師專業家級的竟然會比衛生所護理師少一千多元他們做事情有不一樣嗎他們事實上是一比一千個孩子那怎麼會是這樣的比例上還會是相差這樣的"},{"start":317.174,"end":344.6,"text":"的專業佳績所以本席強烈建議在制定相關規則的時候不是坐在辦公室裡邊去想像那要做這個工作要到工作現場去看一下整個的工作忙碌狀況而且這種差別待遇行之有年一直以來都是這樣對我們學校護理師他又是肩負我們學校孩子的健康很重要的一個靈魂人物那所以學校護理師我不知道教育部如果"},{"start":346.054,"end":358.914,"text":"衛福部、教育部都沒有表示意見還是真的是人總不採納今年1月4號人總公布的全國軍工教育人員的待遇知己要點"},{"start":359.605,"end":376.596,"text":"同時也大幅度調整各類職種的專業佳績一月十號全國學校護理師就提出了抗議來做聲明可是似乎好像是沒有人去理會因為因應醫院的護理師留任的難題衛福部還有一些配套措施"},{"start":377.617,"end":402.996,"text":"夜班加急、繁重津貼直接撥付給護理師同時又降低護病費的一個獎勵金給醫院用盡一切努力就是要留人可是人力就是資源所以我不知道我懷疑人總是不是缺乏這樣的認知現在是到處搶人的時代那怎麼會讓我們的護理師雙重受到尤其是學校護理師受到雙重的歧視"},{"start":403.676,"end":417.683,"text":"你說這口氣你覺得今天學校護理師怎麼會吞得下去他比公務人員低他比公務我們的衛生所的人員又低那他本來醫事人員整個整個就是低的學校護理師又更低"},{"start":419.512,"end":435.394,"text":"對,所以我們因為有這樣像委員剛剛提的有疑情的反應所以我們就督促就要求衛福部趕快來處理好,我覺得希望人總可能要去考慮因為公職醫事人員扣除掉我們的法醫、西醫、中醫師跟亞醫師在公立醫療"},{"start":436.476,"end":436.796,"text":"那這些人數已經達到28.4萬所以這個薪資"},{"start":464.827,"end":487.109,"text":"因為他的工作比別人多可是薪資領的又比私立醫院低所以希望能夠透過一些薪資的加給制度來增加留人的那當然我們也期待不要漏掉我們的護理師所以我一上任之後就接到全國公職護理師對本案的陳情那接獲後我們也跟"},{"start":488.01,"end":499.559,"text":"邀請全國一市聯合會跟相關政府部門來做討論包括教育部跟衛福部他們都是同意那現在就是等人總點個頭所以我剛才問你9月30號開會"},{"start":504.202,"end":520.519,"text":"衛福部跟教育部跟我表達意見都是他們同意、他們支持那現在就是人總這邊到底什麼時候會去開帳的會是不是可以在這邊也可以去承諾說可不可以把公職醫事人員整體的專業家級提升到能夠追上警察嗎?"},{"start":521.465,"end":545.266,"text":"跟委員報告,如果衛福部還有教育部的方案上來報導行政院是由人總處理的話,我們也趕快來...問一下什麼時間?因為我從上個會期就已經針對這個部分表達強烈的...因為他們的確一月長年以來都是對他們來講是一種很大的啟示是不是我們下去以後,我們應該趕快去督促...促請那個衛福部跟教育部趕快...所以可不可以給我們一個時間?"},{"start":547.401,"end":569.659,"text":"因為我們等了蠻久了我不曉得他們要作業時程要多久啦我們請他趕快回應委員您的要求好 那你就要去要求衛福部跟教育部因為前次你們管是不是一個月能夠召開下一次的會議9月30號開可不可以11月的時候再度召開會議"},{"start":571.659,"end":580.744,"text":"現在如果說衛福部有方案他其實就直接報行政院就不一定要開會等報院以後我們再會相關機關意見回來我們就可以簽辦"},{"start":582.014,"end":603.533,"text":"所以最後我還是呼籲不要把公務人員的服從的素養當成事實上是可以忽視公務人員的一個心理心聲的理由還是要去看重學校護理師或各類醫事人員真的專業家級要給他拉起然後對於醫事人員跟其他的人員事實上是同等的重要謝謝"},{"start":607.302,"end":613.751,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的質詢那等一下請我們那個夫人市長會後跟相關單位聯繫一下"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":297,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩行政院人事行政總處的副人事長。"],["主席：副人事長。"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：早。行政院在111年幫軍公教調薪到4%，今年再調4%，今年的調薪除了本奉以外，專業加給也有相當幅度的調整，預計114年還要再調3%，這是25年來首次連續2年調整，我覺得在人力荒的狀態下，這事實上的確很需要，因為很多公務人員也面臨請不到人、留不住人的問題，所以本席非常肯定行政院這樣的積極作為。","可是，今年的調薪大家都很開心，誰不開心呢？只有公職的醫事人員不開心，為什麼？調薪的結果以公務員薦七的職等來看，公立的醫療機構跟公立學校的專業加給比其他的專業人員還要低，所以想問一下，臺灣社會應該沒有人會否定醫事人員的專業，而且在整體公務人員專業加給裡面，醫事人員卻是最低的，這有一些歧視的問題，想問一下，為什麼會這樣？"],["李副人事長秉洲：這個部分就我的了解，衛福部正在檢討中，他們9月底好像有開過會，我們會追蹤這個問題。"],["林委員月琴：公職的醫事人員不是只有專業加給有差別，整個來說原本定的就已經比其他職類低，甚至這次在調薪的時候，也會看到專業加給在整個調整的幅度上，其他職類的調幅是在6.2%到12.8%，可是公職醫事人員為什麼只有4%？醫事人員專業加給比人家低，今年大家都在調整專業加給的時候，它調整的幅度還是比別人低，請問是什麼原因？我們的衛福部沒有意見嗎？當時人總在討論醫事人員相關薪資的時候，針對專業加給如此的低，衛福部都沒有表示意見嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：因為剛好調薪的那個階段我們正要檢討專業加給表的表(一)併表(二)，所以你會覺得有些為什麼會比較高，那是因為剛好他的專業加給表(一)併表(二)的關係。"],["林委員月琴：我先問你，衛福部有當時有表示意見嗎？是你們人總不同意還是怎樣？為什麼前面就已經低了，然後真的在調薪的時候疊上來之後還是最低的？"],["李副人事長秉洲：如果是通案調整待遇，我們有一個待遇審議委員會，大概是沒有邀衛福部，我們大概就是邀財主單位還有專家學者來討論，這個部分……"],["林委員月琴：COVID-19的時候，醫療人員、醫事人員對我們來講都非常的重要，可是卻對他們最不友善，而且公立學校護理師的專業加給又比其他單位的醫事人員少，對公立學校的護理師而言，事實上是每40班聘1人，以一個學校2,500人來計算的話，每1,000人只有一個護士要去做這樣的照顧，學生在上學當中，如果碰到任何狀況，他也都要在處理，即每1,000個孩子就只有一個護理人員來處理，然後他又比不上其他單位的醫事人員，更比不上我們的警消專業人員。本席相信，得知這種真相的人都會認為學校的護理師受到雙重的歧視，所以同樣的問題想請教，當時教育部到底有沒有提醒你們人總，這樣子會讓學校護理師感覺到不受尊重，有再跟你們做進一步的反映嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：所以剛剛有跟委員報告，就是衛福部在9月底有邀請來開會，包括教育部也有邀請一起來研究、討論。"],["林委員月琴：你們9月30號不是開會了嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有開會，衛福部……"],["林委員月琴：開會的結果是什麼？"],["李副人事長秉洲：教育部來研擬，看要怎麼來做調整。"],["林委員月琴：那衛福部呢？"],["李副人事長秉洲：也是。"],["林委員月琴：也是要等，那要等到什麼時候呢？所以同樣是護理師，在衛生所跟在學校要做的事情一樣，但每個月學校護理師的專業加給竟然會比衛生所護理師少一千多元，他們做的事情有不一樣嗎？他們事實上是1比1,000個孩子，怎麼他的專業加給在比例上還是與其他護理師有差別呢？所以本席強烈建議，在制定相關規則的時候，不是坐在辦公室裡面去想像，而是要到工作現場去看一下整個的工作忙碌狀況，而且這種差別待遇行之有年，一直以來都是這樣對我們的學校護理師，而他又是肩負我們學校孩子的健康一個很重要的靈魂人物，所以學校護理師的部分，我不知道是不是衛福部、教育部都沒有表示意見，還是真的是人總處不採納。","今年1月4號人總公布的全國軍公教人員待遇支給要點，同時也大幅度調整各種職類的專業加給；1月10號全國學校護理師就提出抗議聲明，可是似乎好像沒有人去理會，因為要因應醫院護理師留任的難題，衛福部還有一些配套措施，包括夜班加給、繁重工作津貼直接撥付給護理師，同時又有降低護病比的一個獎勵金給醫院，用盡一切努力就是要留人。可是人力就是資源，所以我懷疑人總是不是缺乏這樣的認知，現在是到處搶人的時代，怎麼會讓我們的護理師，尤其是學校護理師受到雙重的歧視，你說這口氣學校護理師怎麼會吞得下去！他比公務人員低，他比衛生所的人員又低，加上本來醫事人員這個部分整個就是低的，學校護理師又更低了。"],["李副人事長秉洲：因為委員剛剛提的，有這樣輿情的反映，所以我們會要求衛福部趕快來處理。"],["林委員月琴：好，我覺得希望人總可能要去考慮，因為公職醫事人員扣除掉法醫、西醫、中醫師跟牙醫師在公立醫療機構有特定薪資加給的制度，其他醫事人員都沒有，也就是說，我剛剛講的法醫、西醫、中醫師跟牙醫師都有另外的薪資加給制度，其他醫事人員反而沒有，所以只能靠這個專業加給讓他拿到應有的薪資、比較合理的待遇，這些人數已經達到28.4萬，所以這個薪資的部分，因為他的工作比別人多，可是薪資領的又比私立醫院低，所以希望能夠透過一些薪資加給制度來增加留人的誘因。當然我們也期待不要漏掉我們的護理師，所以我一上任之後，就接到全國公職護理師對本案的陳情，接獲後我們邀請全國醫事聯合會跟相關政府部門來做討論，包含教育部跟衛福部，他們都是同意的，現在就是等人總點個頭，所以我剛才問你，你9月30號開會，但之前衛福部跟教育部跟我表達意見時他們都是同意的，他們是支持的，現在就是人總這邊到底什麼時候會去開這樣的會，是不是可以在這邊承諾，可不可以把公職醫事人員整體的專業加給提升到能夠追得上警察嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：跟委員報告，如果衛福部還有教育部的方案報上來，行政院會交由人總處理的話，我們會趕快來……"],["林委員月琴：問一下什麼時間會提出？因為我從上個會期就已經針對這一個部分表達強烈的意見，因為長年以來對他們來講都是一種很大的歧視。"],["李副人事長秉洲：所以我們回去以後，會趕快促請衛福部跟教育部報案上來。"],["林委員月琴：所以可不可以給我們一個時間？因為我們等滿久了。"],["李副人事長秉洲：因為我不曉得他們作業時程要多久，但我們會請他們趕快回應委員您的要求。"],["林委員月琴：好，那你就要去要求衛福部跟教育部，因為薪資是你們是管的，是不是一個月內能夠召開下一次的會議？即9月30號開會，可不可以11月的時候再度召開會議？"],["李副人事長秉洲：現在如果衛福部有方案了，其實它就直接報行政院，就不一定要開會，等報院以後我們再彙相關機關意見回來，我們就可以簽辦了。"],["林委員月琴：最後，我還是要呼籲，不要把公務人員服從的素養當成是可以忽視公務人員一個心理、心生的理由，還是要去看重學校護理師或各類醫事人員，真的要把他們的專業加給予以拉齊，事實上，醫事人員跟其他的人員是同等的重要，謝謝。"],["李副人事長秉洲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的質詢，請副人事長會後跟相關單位聯繫一下，就是月琴委員要的資料，請通知他們一下，好不好？"],["李副人事長秉洲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},{"id":"155662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30655b2c2674fc9216cf4009fd1c3043021edbe885aa460c75b31dd0c2f14099b89b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:35:08 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"start":426.315,"end":438.925,"text":"高屏地區7所矯正機關當中5所超收,超收率最高的是高雄第二監獄17.5%﹖下一頁﹖夷花東10所矯正機關3所超收﹖下一頁﹖離島當然收容人數比較少﹖"},{"start":446.531,"end":448.273,"text":"如果以所有的項目別我就以超收間數來計算"},{"start":465.968,"end":487.858,"text":"整體臺灣的矯正機關53%超收超收前五名我列在最右邊的表格第一名是臺北看守所第二名桃園監獄第三南投看守所第四新竹看守所第五苗栗看守所而總體來說看守所的超收比監獄更嚴重"},{"start":490.839,"end":498.236,"text":"而女性的女子監獄或是女子看守所她的人權待遇是更差的因為她都是百分之百抄手的"},{"start":499.288,"end":527.626,"text":"請把這些數據我希望今天的質詢之後你們可以提供完整的進一步資訊跟檢視的計畫跟給本席我們在討論預算的時候我們好好來來找出方法來解決它下一頁那我以你們開始推動的一人一床推動到現在還是有五成沒有達標當中就是看守所的進度最糟"},{"start":528.789,"end":536.569,"text":"部長這些問題下一頁怎麼解決需要預算嗎需要預算也需要有計畫"},{"start":537.725,"end":538.145,"text":"有到八成嗎?"},{"start":561.431,"end":563.592,"text":"法務部頒布的各監獄收容受刑人的這個基準表"},{"start":589.488,"end":589.508,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":610.275,"end":611.576,"text":"我回到最後一頁"},{"start":638.474,"end":644.225,"text":"前夜這邊是我也整理出來的您剛講我們這幾年投入了"},{"start":645.716,"end":669.514,"text":"經費去進行監獄的興建或擴建目前完工啟用的有臺北監獄宜蘭監獄但是這兩個完工擴建的他還是超收換言之你已經花了錢沒有改到位他還是面臨超收這是當初規劃的問題還是在收容的部分沒有辦法去做一個管理"},{"start":672.501,"end":696.082,"text":"雲林第二監獄已經完工啟用了他一樣也是非常滿的他增加了1360個收容名額那我們看還有兩個新興計畫是八德外醫監跟彰化看守所當中5處要改善矯正機關的人道的這個空間改善只有一所是看守所就是彰化看守所"},{"start":698.084,"end":713.135,"text":"巴德和彰化目前還在執行中總的來看這五個裡面即便完工了他還是超收然後北部我剛剛給你看各區的分布圖北區的"},{"start":714.301,"end":714.801,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我們會全力來"},{"start":743.717,"end":744.417,"text":"省委員發會質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":560,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（9時35分）謝謝主席，部長，你喝口水。辛苦大家，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長早安，我們所有法務部的同仁，大家辛苦了。現在的時間是上午9點35分，再過25分鐘，韓國瑜院長召集了協商，我們即將要跟朝野各黨團開會，希望總預算案能成功地突破僵局，能夠付委審查，稍後的協商，我想社會都在看，全民都在等。我也整理了一下，總預算遲遲沒有辦法審查，在預算法第五十四條的規範之下，新興的計畫、新增的預算沒有辦法執行，所以total來到2,050億，這2,050億方方面面攸關照顧人民福祉，臺灣的建設要進步，能不能夠來化解，我們稍後會有答案。但是就您所職掌法務部主管的相關預算，受影響的有哪些？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，法務部受影響的部分，新興計畫的總共有11項，包括法醫研究所的強化法醫鑑識能量的科技計畫；矯正署的有矯正機關科技安全網建置計畫，以及矯正機關補助經濟不利處境者及經濟狀況欠佳收容人的實物或現金專案計畫；行政執行署有臺中分署及廉政署中調組興建辦公廳舍的中長程計畫等，總共有11項。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝部長，其實非常多啦，total有11項，我整理出來大概數額會是11.26億，它會focus在我們上會期剛剛完成的打詐四法裡頭，打詐新興工具使用的升級。所以打詐升級的預算被擋了，也包括你剛剛講的強化法醫鑑識的量能，這些讓我們強化基層，讓工作人員辦案更專業也能夠減輕負擔。我們在司法法制委員會，大家一直都說要為司法人員減壓，這些科學化的新興工具要導入，被擋了，當然，我們一直不足的矯正經費也受了影響。所以我這裡整理的11.26億元，這段時間你們有沒有強化跟朝野的委員做說明，呼籲倡議每一分、每一秒、每一毛都是必要支用的計畫項目，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這部分尤其本部及所屬，就新興的計畫拜託委員多支持，因為這的確很重要，像調查局有些科技辦案的，整個新的犯罪手法查緝的、追緝的這些，尤其是網路犯罪、智慧型科技的，以及精進科技計畫，這些都是新增的計畫。"],["吳委員思瑤：簡言之，委員們不要在質詢的時候，要求看到打詐的成果，然後擋打詐的預算；委員們不要在司法及法制委員會，每次都為司法人員的權益大聲疾呼要照顧司法人員減壓，然後預算砍了；也不要委員們每次在這裡說對於改善我們的監獄、獄所、看守所，所有矯正相關的作業要升級，要更人道、要跟上國際的人權思維，結果預算都不能動彈。我再次期待稍後的朝野協商，我們可以讓該做的事情，每一分、每一毫都要用在刀口上，唯有透過實質的審查，才能夠對預算的編列跟執行的計畫進行嚴格的把關跟審視，而不是擋著不審、擋著擺爛、擋著來癱瘓國家。","我接下來講的獄政改革跟預算也大有相關，其實我們對於收容人，不管是在監獄或是看守所整個環境的改善，我知道你們逐步在做，有5所包括監獄跟看守所，有的是擴建、有的是興建，但是總體來說，我們簽署的兩公約，有關對受刑人的人道處理，要尊重其天賦人格尊嚴之處遇等等，兩公約是過去馬英九政府簽署的，我們認為要跟上國際，所以應回歸兩公約規範。我就問您有關矯正單位的收容情況，我們從2016、2017年開始推動一人一床，開始編列預算來提高收容，根據我這裡的數據我就直接詢問，核定收容人數是6萬552人，實際收容是5萬8,889位，看似沒有超收，是真的嗎？部長，數字會說話，這是總數嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，總數是沒有超收，但是個別監所的收容不一樣。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以我們要勇敢面對問題、解決問題。我想這是一個老問題，藉由今天的質詢，還有後續審查總預算時，我們好好來把關、嚴格檢視。以地區來分，我的辦公室這段時間花了非常多時間，就全臺灣的矯正機關，每一所、每一處都去了解、調查，大臺北、桃竹苗地區15個收容矯正機關當中，有10所是超收的，平均超收都是兩成多、三成多，第一名就是臺北看守所，超收率是39.93%，就是四成。中、彰投地區8所當中有6所超收，平均超收最高的是南投看守所，超收28.9%，其餘加起來大概也都是百分之十幾的超收率。雲嘉南9所中有3所超收，超收最高的是臺南看守所，達到17.44%。高屏地區7所矯正機關當中5所超收，超收率最高的是高雄第二監獄，有17.5%。宜花東10所矯正機關3所超收；離島當然收容人數比較少，是唯一一個沒有超收的區域。我以區域別做這樣的分析，這些資訊部長都有掌握，對不對？我大概的分析是正確的吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果以項目別來看，我就以超收間數計算，整體臺灣的矯正機關53%超收，超收前五名我列在最右邊的表格上，第一名是臺北看守所，第二名桃園監獄，第三名南投看守所，第四名新竹看守所，第五名苗栗看守所，總體來說，看守所的超收情況比監獄嚴重，而女性的女子監獄或女子看守所，其人權待遇更差，因為他們都是百分之百超收。","我希望在我今天的質詢之後，你們可以提供完整的、進一步資訊跟檢視的計畫給本席，我們在討論預算的時候，可以好好找出方法來解決。","從你們開始推動一人一床到現在，還是有五成沒有達標，當中就屬看守所的進度最糟，部長，這些問題怎麼解決？需要預算嘛！需要預算，也需要有計畫。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是因為監所廳舍不足，現在正積極辦理擴增、建中，我們也希望預算部分能夠順利。跟委員報告，我們也在努力，其實現在的一人一床已經達到八成了。"],["吳委員思瑤：有到八成嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：八成三了，最近……"],["吳委員思瑤：最新的數據？那給我update最新的數據，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，我們再提供最新的數據。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我時間要到了，我先跟您洩題一下，我認為制度的修正是需要的，剛剛講的是執行面，它有難度，預算是不是足夠、空間是不是擴建、興建，都還需要再大力來規劃，但是就規定來講，法務部頒布的各監獄收容受刑人基準表，2001年的規定是每一個收容人的居住空間法定是0.7坪，部長知道這個數字嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：比較歐洲理事會，他們是多人房、單人房都有不同配置，但都是我們的好幾倍空間，在基本人權、人道收容空間部分，國際紅十字會的建議也是臺灣的七、八倍以上。換言之，制度上的檢視請你們回去思考，而且現在的制度基準表只有規定監獄，看守所有沒有一個基本的規範？這邊是我整理出來的，剛剛你說這幾年投入了經費進行監獄的興建或擴建，目前完工啟用的有臺北監獄、宜蘭監獄，但是這兩個完工擴建的監獄還是超收，換言之，你已經花了錢，但沒有改到位，他還是面臨超收，這是當初規劃的問題呢？還是在收容部分，沒有辦法做一個管理？雲林第二監獄已經完工啟用了，一樣，也是非常滿，增加了1,360個收容名額。我們看還有兩個新興計畫是八德外役監跟彰化看守所，這五處人道空間改善的矯正機關，只有一所是看守所，就是彰化看守所。八德跟彰化目前還在執行中，總的來看，這五個即便完工了，還是超收，然後，我剛剛給你看各區分布圖，北區的超收狀況最嚴重，可是你整個擴建政策沒有因地制宜，換言之，需要去解決的那些最擠的、最不人道的區域，你反而沒有啟動擴建計畫。","我時間到了，後續在討論預算的時候，希望針對這些矯正機關擴建、興建計畫，你們能夠在審預算的時候，清楚地跟國會報告，這樣好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員，我們會全力來完成這個……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我們一起集氣加油！沒錢就萬萬不能，總預算再過15分鐘就要協商，希望能夠順利，全民都在看，一起加油，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝鄭部長。","接下來有請沈委員發惠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},{"id":"155661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065bb4b1b8de154fda5de4e273edfded794dbe885aa460c75b3deed44c4988e0d765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:36:51 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:2.494,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長來 顧部長請是 羅委員好"},{"start":12.303,"end":38.87,"text":"部長早安昨天呢本期跟國安局呢探討了這個聯合力艦2024B的這個軍演我今天還是要跟部長再談一談這個10月14號聯合力艦2024這個軍演的這個部分那中國解放軍呢他是在14號的凌晨5點宣布要展開環台的軍演我想請問部長"},{"start":41.138,"end":42.259,"text":"秦芝的預判我們確實有一些掌握那因為依照相關的這個他們的一個動這個"},{"start":68.422,"end":69.782,"text":"這確實的時間點我們事先並不知道只要說可能會有"},{"start":93.911,"end":94.692,"text":"中共在這個軍營以前有告知美國,這部分是事實嗎?"},{"start":123.062,"end":151.664,"text":"我想我沒有辦法代替美國回答這樣的一個問題但是我們跟美國有保持綿密的一個情緒的交換所以事先我們只知道說也許要軍演確實的時間點其實是不知道對不對那像之前我們也討論過很多次像聯合歷艦2024軍演其實它是一系列的有A或有B有B就有CDE一系列下去那會不會未來可能也就是半夜2點半夜3點它就突然間"},{"start":152.825,"end":152.965,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":170.686,"end":172.728,"text":"中國會利用各種的藉口來實施一些大規模的一些演習的可能性我們沒辦法排除"},{"start":193.164,"end":219.526,"text":"但是他平常應該是剛剛我們也在業務報告裡面提到他每月平均大概3到4次的聯合戰備進行這是現在是已經固定的但是以這麼大規模來進行這個軍演的話我想說要因為所謂的常態化這個概念要稍微定義一下我們現在只能夠說觀察到現在聯合戰備進行是有一個常態化的一個現象"},{"start":220.146,"end":231.57,"text":"但是聯合力艦的這樣規模的一個演習,他基本上還是會,可能會在不定的時間裡面,來進行這樣子的一個"},{"start":236.711,"end":242.974,"text":"所以部長您的意思就是說也許他就是突然間就告知就像我們這次14號對國人來講就是一個好像是突擊式的這個軍援所以我才想說我們事先有沒有訊息得知說他這個時間點14號早上凌晨5點"},{"start":263.585,"end":291.022,"text":"中共他要宣布來展開這個軍演的這個活動我想了解是這樣子說往後可能我們隨時就會stand by也許半夜某天的半夜兩點三點突然間來了一個軍演我們應該是說我們已經做好應處那但是所以不管他任何時候軍演我們都做好準備的意思我們沒有辦法確確的能夠掌握說他是在exactly是在哪一天宣布軍演但是我們已經事前有掌握相關的情節應該是這樣講"},{"start":292.543,"end":299.009,"text":"好那部長當然我昨天也有跟國安單位在談到一個讓大家很憂心的就是說OK早上覺得有一點點風聲鶴唳可是後來呢那股票記得台股那天早上剛開盤的時候有一些震盪那之後呢也都沒事了到收盤還收了紅盤那像我們一些概念股金工股啊"},{"start":313.881,"end":334.371,"text":"他還有收紅牌的這個狀況那國人覺得好像也還好而已這是軍演也還好而已沒什麼可是這一次我們發現說不管是他的這個演習的規模或者是戰略目標其實都有提升了我們發現說國人好像有忽略了這個部分尤其這一次中國海警船還派出了這個排水量高達"},{"start":336.952,"end":364.271,"text":"一萬兩千噸的這個公噸的這個海警船2901編號那他的火力其實也是等同於海軍二級艦像還有他派出來的這個軍艦也好或者是說這個海警船也好他這個收次呢都是比2020年統計以來最大一次的這個最大的這個數量像這個的話其實他在規模上來講的其實"},{"start":366.733,"end":366.873,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":393.877,"end":394.797,"text":"部長這部分你怎麼看呢?"},{"start":414.449,"end":421.199,"text":"對,不管是由信轉引或由言轉戰,這樣子的一個想定都在我們這個研討的範圍之內,然後也"},{"start":427.418,"end":441.285,"text":"他這樣子的一種可能的行動會壓縮我們預警的時間然後這個可能性是存在的所以我們因應這樣的預警時間壓縮的情況之下我們這個要進入這個比如說要進入到一個加強截備然後再進入到來"},{"start":455.237,"end":473.032,"text":"來應急來應處的這個時間會在壓縮的情況下我們配合這樣子的一個想定我們就來縮短我們所有應該要準備的這個時間事實上跟委員報告我可以說在今年的航空演習事實上就已經納入這樣的想定了"},{"start":474.673,"end":478.956,"text":"中共在海上灰色地帶的侵擾是非常的頻繁尤其是在南海我們也看到菲律賓在今年跟中國的衝突其實是明顯的"},{"start":494.705,"end":510.889,"text":"提高了很多,比如說中國的海警船它曾經好幾次的蓄意衝撞或這種高壓水砲的方式來攻擊菲律賓的海警船或是民船,甚至還強行登上了菲律賓的船隻來奪取他們的槍支跟裝備等等,這種狀況會不會發生在台海之間呢?"},{"start":513.683,"end":540.768,"text":"南海的這個灰色地帶行動會不會複製在這個台海之間?我們一直持續關注他這種灰色地帶的一個洗澡的一個可能性所以在這個部分也納入我們跟應處的範圍那特別是有我們要跟這個海巡要做充分的結合配合然後做一個即時情緒的一個交換那同時來共同應處這樣的一個可能的作為"},{"start":541.764,"end":567.926,"text":"所以這部分也是會是我們擔心的部分是不是?哪天就像就是滄香走火了然後呢中國呢需要製造更大的這個衝突來造成台海之間的不平靜應該很明顯就是說他的海警他的海警這一次向配合軍艦來共同行動他就是意圖運用這個法律戰跟這個心理戰跟然後認知戰來作為將這個台海內水化"},{"start":568.426,"end":573.669,"text":"臺灣問題內政化的目的海警要用執法作為彰顯主權事實上我們也要捍衛我們的主權我們認為像這樣子的一種進行應用海警作為相關的作為我們要隨時要警惕然後要妥適的來應處"},{"start":592.601,"end":594.443,"text":"海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍海軍"},{"start":612.844,"end":613.645,"text":"國防部國安單位如果有機會的話還是要跟國人來強調"},{"start":639.466,"end":640.666,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員部長各位請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":157,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時36分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：來，顧部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早安。昨天本席跟國安局探討了「聯合利劍2024-B」這個軍演，我今天還是要跟部長再談一談，10月14號聯合利劍2024軍演這個部分。中國解放軍是在14號的凌晨5點宣布要展開環臺的軍演，我想請問部長，這對我們來講是突發狀況嗎？我們有沒有事先接到任何的通知？我們是不是曉得在這個時間點會有這個軍演活動？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說情資的預判，是不是？"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：情資的預判我們確實有一些掌握，因為依照他們相關的動態，比如說遼寧號，還有他們的海警船等等的，然後還有這些相關軍艦的動態，以及他們在之前的一些官媒上面的一些說法，我們當然會做一些情資的預判。"],["羅委員美玲：但確實的時間點，我們事先並不知道，只知道可能會有軍演活動，是這樣的意思嗎？因為我之前看到媒體報導說，其實美國有被告知，這是事實嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們跟美國有保持充分的溝通，但是要說確切是哪一天，我想我們預判它會進行，但是沒有辦法預判確切的是哪一天。"],["羅委員美玲：不是，我是從媒體上面看到，說中共在宣布軍演以前有告知美國，這部分是事實嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我沒有辦法代替美國回答這樣一個問題，但是我們跟美國有保持綿密的情資交換。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。所以事先我們只知道也許要軍演，確實的時間點其實是不知道的，對不對？之前我們也討論過很多次，像聯合利劍2024軍演，其實它是一系列的，有A會有B，有B就有C、D、E，一系列下去，那會不會未來也可能是半夜兩點、半夜三點，中國突然間就宣布要軍演了，會變成這種常態性的軍演活動嗎？會嗎？會發生這種狀況嗎？像這一次軍演活動對國人來講是沒有預警的，早上一覺醒來，哇，軍演了，之後也會發生類似的狀況嗎？會變成常態性嗎？半夜兩點、三點，中共……"],["顧部長立雄：你是說類似聯合利劍這樣子等級規模的軍演？"],["羅委員美玲：是，沒錯。"],["顧部長立雄：這樣等級規模的軍演？"],["羅委員美玲：對，就是時間點會不會就突然間來個半夜兩點、三點？"],["顧部長立雄：我們只能夠說，中國有利用各種藉口實施一些大規模演習的可能性，我們沒辦法排除。剛剛我們也在業務報告裡面提到，平常應該是每月平均大概三到四次聯合戰備警巡，這是現在已經固定的。但是以這麼大規模來進行軍演，所謂的常態化這個概念要稍微定義一下，我們現在只能夠說觀察到現在，聯合戰備警巡有常態化的現象。至於聯合利劍這樣規模的演習，基本上還是可能會在不定的時間裡面進行這麼大規模程度的軍演，但應該不至於週期性的都會進行這樣的軍演。"],["羅委員美玲：部長的意思是，也許他就是突然間告知，就像這次14號，對國人來講，好像是突擊式的軍演，所以我才想問我們事先有沒有訊息，得知這個時間點，即14號早上凌晨五點，中共宣布要展開軍演活動？我想了解的是這樣子。往後可能我們隨時都要stand by，也許某天的半夜兩點、三點，突然間就來了個軍演。"],["顧部長立雄：我們應該是說我們已經做好應處，但是沒有……"],["羅委員美玲：不管他任何時候軍演，我們都做好準備，是這個意思，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：我們沒有辦法確切的能夠掌握他exactly是在哪一天宣布軍演，但是我們事先已經有掌握相關情資，應該是這樣講。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，我昨天也有跟國安單位談到一個讓大家很憂心的，就是早上覺得有一點點風聲鶴唳，記得臺股那天早上剛開盤的時候有一些震盪，之後也都沒事了，到收盤還收了紅盤，像一些軍工概念股還有收紅盤的狀況，國人覺得這次軍演也還好而已、沒什麼。可是我們發現這次不管是演習的規模或者是戰略目標，其實都有提升，國人卻好像忽略了這個部分。尤其這次中國還派出了排水量高達1萬2,000噸、編號2901的海警船，它的火力等同於海軍二級艦，還有他派出來的軍艦也好，或者是海警船也好，艘次是2020年統計以來最大的數量。在規模上來講，比以前都還要大，可是國人好像都忽略了，還有中共好像也刻意釋放出，這也還好，我們只是軍演，甚至還送了臺灣一個甜心派、愛心的圖，當然臺灣是無法消受。種種類似的戰略是不是也是一種兩面手法？鬆懈國人的警備心，實際上進行的所有軍演都比過往還來得更加嚴厲，也許會演變成部長一直所強調的、所擔心的，有由演轉戰的可能，這部分你怎麼看呢？"],["顧部長立雄：對，不管是由訓轉演或由演轉戰，這樣的想定都在我們研討的範圍之內，這樣可能的行動會壓縮我們預警的時間，這個可能性是存在的，所以我們因應……"],["羅委員美玲：所以也是考驗國軍因應的能力，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：我們在因應這樣的預警時間壓縮的情況之下，比如我們要進入到加強戒備，再進入到應處的時間在壓縮的情況之下，我們配合這樣的想定就縮短所有應該要整備的時間。我可以說今年的漢光演習事實上就已經納入這樣的想定了。"],["羅委員美玲：再來還有一點，除了剛剛部長所提到，我們真的是不能掉以輕心之外，共軍在海上灰色地帶的侵擾非常頻繁，尤其是在南海。我們也看到，菲律賓在今年跟中國的衝突明顯提高了很多，比如中國海警船曾經好幾次蓄意衝撞，或是用高壓水砲的方式攻擊菲律賓的海警船或是民船，甚至還強行登上菲律賓的船隻奪取他們的槍枝跟裝備等等，這種狀況會不會發生在臺海之間呢？南海的灰色地帶行動會不會複製在臺海之間？"],["顧部長立雄：我們一直持續關注這種灰色地帶襲擾的可能性，所以這個部分也納入我們應處的範圍，特別是我們跟海巡要充分配合，交換即時情資，同時來共同應處這樣可能的作為。"],["羅委員美玲：這也會是我們擔心的部分，是不是？哪天就擦槍走火了，然後中國是不是會製造更大的衝突，造成臺海之間的不平靜？"],["顧部長立雄：其目的應該很明顯，它的海警這一次配合軍艦來共同行動，就是意圖運用法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰，將臺海內海化，然後臺灣問題內政化這樣的目的。也就是它的海警要用執法的作為來彰顯它的主權。事實上，我們也要捍衛我們的主權，所以我們認為中國運用海警來做這樣相關的作為，我們要隨時警惕，也要妥適來應處。"],["羅委員美玲：當然，我們秉持海巡隊對海巡、海軍對海軍的這個遊戲規則，可是無論怎麼看，他們整個行動其實都是準軍事、準軍事部隊了，對不對？剛剛我提到，像它的編號2901海警船排水量高達1萬2,000公噸，種種跡象都比我們的戰力還要來得高。所以這部分的話，說實在的，我們要隨時對國人提出警惕，像這次的軍演活動，讓本席很擔心，昨天我也探討這個部分，今天也探討這個部分，因為國人的心態，讓我們比較擔心，對這整個是鬆懈的，所以國防部、國安單位如果有機會，還是要跟國人強調，每一次的軍演其實臺灣都有很大的……"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望國人有所警惕。另外，我們認為他們的海警結合海軍從事共同的演習或者操演，事實上，這樣的行為不能夠單純的將它的海警認為是執法的一環，應該認為屬於軍事演練的一環。"],["羅委員美玲：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅美玲委員。部長、各位，請回。"],["主席（羅委員美玲代）：接下來有請王定宇召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},{"id":"155660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e30652fedb2eedc00955d60efc051a48f2135dbe885aa460c75b3083e376bc3f8e2a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:35:12 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請林岱樺委員質詢有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":12.267,"end":14.809,"text":"部長在正式質詢之前我想在禮拜一的時候在加拿大有一間飲料公司Boba他正式的道歉他道歉什麼呢是針對我們台灣的珍奶在國際上在創業的節目當中被文化扭曲了而這位漫威演員劉詩牧我們好萊塢的華裔演員他站出來"},{"start":38.39,"end":38.53,"text":"我應該委員報告"},{"start":63.458,"end":69.102,"text":"農業部絕對支持一級到三級到六級的一個產業也謝謝委員的一個支持"},{"start":83.929,"end":84.049,"text":"主席"},{"start":102.159,"end":108.04,"text":"農業部應加速協助更新全面進入農業的AI世代我這邊有幾個現況在做爬梳農業委員會的這個設備現況是不符合黑I的運用第三個農業多元系統整合跟資訊共用雲端服務的開發"},{"start":129.565,"end":146.389,"text":"我講的是非金農的部分第4個 面對營收的壓力 農會淘汰也就是太重了就相對的保守本席有一個具體的 有些具體的要求好 在這個今年的5月29的時候本席也再次的提出我們的農業決策智慧化應該要盡速的更新我們的設備好 我再次的爬梳我們中南部"},{"start":154.991,"end":155.091,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":169.571,"end":178.177,"text":"整個Windows、Windows XP、Windows 7、Windows 8這個時候我們已經這個都停止服務了2014年4月8號、2020、2023到Windows 10還有多少台的這個電腦呢"},{"start":187.224,"end":199.033,"text":"1060他是在星期一的時候全面停止了維護日期的好這樣子包括WIN11的我們現在還有427台我現在是針對中南部的141家的農漁會那這樣的結果也就是說75%在農在南部當中75%的電腦資訊是完全漏落問題的"},{"start":210.502,"end":228.032,"text":"好那如果今天我要來做更新的話我們Windows 11不需要更新外共有1656部電腦全部要更新我如果用最低等級一台27000這四架大概要花五六千萬但是那個是根本沒有辦法去運"},{"start":229.073,"end":229.513,"text":"那這都不包含"},{"start":245.882,"end":250.424,"text":"我這個網路的483臺的印表機跟159臺的防火牆這我是針對中南部的農業會一百事實以下做了盤點所以呢在農業會的資訊設備現況根本不符合AI有六大困境第一個導入資訊化已經30年了第二個伺服器老舊容易故障第三個易產生系統相容性的問題第四個執行效能緩慢"},{"start":269.11,"end":273.012,"text":"第5個資安的風險資料容易遺失再來軟體開發支出是龐大的經費這都還不算在裡面好那為了讓我們的農業決策不是只有我要肯定部長的部分你們確實在我幾次的質詢之後在陳其仲主委的時候包括您當部長"},{"start":290.521,"end":296.146,"text":"我非常肯定你們真的在你們的部本部內開始了這個資訊化的智慧化的一個整個雲端系統的一個整合那我們基層的農漁會呢?如果我基層的農漁會沒有辦法在整個系統朝向高運算的這樣的系統你怎麼勾結?"},{"start":311.42,"end":316.263,"text":"在有一些相關的我們的這個產銷資訊農業的養殖你怎麼勾結你怎麼掌握我的菜土菜金供需失衡的問題今天要推這個農業智慧化就解決這個供需失調的問題我想這個是我一再的講這個如果能夠在"},{"start":330.57,"end":356.981,"text":"陳部長您任內能夠完成我這整個雲端智慧化決策智慧化包括基層農業的這個智慧化我想這是真的是根本的解決我們農漁會的菜土菜金的問題供銷失衡的問題這個是我真的是覺得是真的是這是我都覺得這個您在任內是已經不負不負不負人民了好所以在這個大數據當中我要有雲要智慧化就一定要精準的數據"},{"start":358.698,"end":380.379,"text":"所以在這個大數據平台建置雲端服務的平台．他至少初期先整合採請流程．人事資、薪資、財產、匯籍、保健、農健保．肥料競銷存這是初步這對我們的相關的這個農業的現況就先做了一個掌握了．電子公文等非金融資訊的部分"},{"start":381.4,"end":410.078,"text":"如果我這個資訊共用架構整個農漁會整合在一塊我就可以不要讓單獨的農漁會去做採購硬體自己去自建機房人力設備的營運成本我不需要一家農會自己去做我是整體的農會而且是跟我農業部整合在一塊的所以在雲端服務平台為基礎可進步藉由各農會掌握農漁民的健康保險的制度覆蓋的人口型態"},{"start":414.504,"end":421.753,"text":"農業政策的檢討改善的依據使人民的生活使農民的生活福祉有所保障未來加入這個才是重點農漁業的養種植產銷資訊"},{"start":426.298,"end":436.668,"text":"在這個大平台當中跟我們農業部勾結跟我們各縣市政府勾結協助農業生產永續經營的機制所以這也可以提供這個農業智慧會話所需的資訊未來我們希望他也一定是得這樣做整合我大器的資訊養種植的區塊養種植的技術等像例如現在的風災我們全面你可以怎麼樣免勘災"},{"start":451.442,"end":472.964,"text":"好 這個其實我要肯定部長啦您這個從優從簡重述的部分您這次是真的我們到你這邊縣市政府到你這邊你隔天就合下去做相關的補助而且免勘災的部分這個本是給你最大的肯定所以像這樣災後的重建我也可以利用大數據的平台數據給農民最快速的協助好 那為什麼農會 農運會他"},{"start":475.146,"end":490.443,"text":"不願意投入這樣的成本因為根據農會人事的管理辦法第8條我農會每年的總用人人費人的人事費用是按照上年度的總收益也就是我賺的多我才更多用人"},{"start":490.964,"end":495.047,"text":"農運會為了增加人力跟留住人才每年的總收益就很重要如果我花大筆的錢去購買資訊設備我總收益就下降我排擠的人事經費我的競爭力當然下降所以在這本席我也主張在幾次的質詢都主張過"},{"start":514.142,"end":530.468,"text":"在針對農業部應該參考加薪負擔限制條文30年沒改了因本席要爭取購農漁會的用人費稀水各組提高10%這是一個編制表好我這邊具體要求有幾項第一個請農業部參考財團法人農漁會南區資訊中心"},{"start":535.23,"end":538.752,"text":"盤點這是他們財團法人盤點你自己總要盤點吧你根據他們的資料下去盤點他們盤點快將近快3到5個月我就記得到快要5個月很認真的盤點所以你們那個農糧署應該有一本厚厚他們的計劃書了中南部農業會的資訊老舊設備並嚴靈補助方案解決農業會的資訊設備所衍生的資安的問題"},{"start":559.847,"end":570.457,"text":"第二 農業部嚴理農業會資訊系統共用平台發展計畫．使相關資料能互動有效提升農業會的經營效能第三 請農業部審慎評估農業人士的管理辦法．爭取各農業會的用人費．薪水各組提高10%部長你怎麼看"},{"start":583.945,"end":602.678,"text":"非常簡要的回答委員的一些要求第一個部分就是農業部在推動農業的數位服務裡面那非常感謝委員這樣的一個規劃跟提示那我們大概分為兩個部分一個是硬體的部分一個是軟體的部分那硬體的部分要包括資訊中心"},{"start":604.019,"end":604.159,"text":"這我也認同"},{"start":620.544,"end":628.573,"text":"我認同,但是你一定要全面性,不要那種計畫型你只要就針對我141家整個中南部所有的農業會我想全國340家,我不能只針對130家我沒有意見,但是至少我南部的部分已經做好準備了"},{"start":637.001,"end":654.445,"text":"部長我已經做好準備了沒有人我花了快到3到5個月不等另外有一些像印表機等他不是用買用租的反而會更有效率所以這個我們會跟他們溝通但是你支不支持這樣的計畫我們容易會多元系統的整合跟資訊共享你支持嗎一個月提出來好嗎一個月來回覆我針對我本席今天所質詢的部分好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":124,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時35分）有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，在正式質詢之前……"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：我想在禮拜一的時候，加拿大有一間飲料公司Bobba正式地道歉，它道歉什麼呢？是針對我們臺灣的珍奶在國際上創業的節目當中被文化扭曲了，而這位漫威演員劉思慕──好萊塢的華裔演員，他站出來對於這樣的事情發聲。今天本席要問部長，對於我們農業的一級生產（初級的生產）、二級加工包裝（包括運輸等等整個通路）、三級（結合了觀光、文化，甚至已經成為文化表徵），您願不願支持？所以本席在這邊要請你喝奶茶。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農業部絕對支持一級到三級到六級的產業，也謝謝委員的支持。"],["林委員岱樺：那我們一起來喝奶茶。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。"],["林委員岱樺：我們來喝奶茶，這個牛奶是國產的。"],["主席：請繼續。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝主席。我也邀請官員、還有媒體記者，大家一起來支持我們本土的農業。既然要支持本土的農業，我們希望連農業都要運用AI的智慧決策，研究如何根本地解決菜土菜金的問題。有鑑於基層農業機構資訊設備老舊，不符需求，農業部應加速協助更新全面進入農業的AI世代。","我這邊有幾個現況在做爬梳：第一，農漁會的設備現況不符合AI的運用；第二，農會多元系統整合暨資訊共用雲端服務開發計畫，我講的是非金融的部分；第三，面對營收的壓力，農會汰舊就相對地保守。","本席有一些具體的要求。在今年5月29日的時候，本席再次提出我們的農業決策智慧化，應該要儘速地更新設備。我再次地爬梳我們中南部141家農會，資訊是農漁會南區資訊中心提供。這邊再次地做了盤整，將近花了快半年的時間，我們仔細地調查，結果是什麼呢？Windows XP、Windows 7、Windows 8分別在2014年4月8號、2020年、2023年已經都停止服務了，Windows 10還有多少台電腦呢？1,060台，這些電腦在星期一的時候全面停止維護，包括Windows 11，現在還有427台，我現在是針對中南部的141家農漁會。也就是說，這樣的結果顯示，在南部的農漁會當中，75%的電腦有資訊安全完全裸露的問題。如果今天要做更新的話，除了Windows 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time information的sharing如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像去中心化以後那就是用簡單的圖了我現在請教陸軍參謀長你現在的UTM的圖啊90張你要把它改成數位化什麼時間可以完成"},{"start":223.618,"end":246.852,"text":"向委員報告這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求那因為這個製圖他從測繪他這個位照他都需要相當的時間那目前已經有一定的產製出來的成果這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作"},{"start":249.191,"end":274.059,"text":"我當然了解你那個限制因素了這個光不是401場的問題401場本身事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖那你要跟衛星同步校正現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的坐標圖我們空軍用的圖JNC ONC的圖UTM坐標圖是幾萬分之一啊"},{"start":278.71,"end":291.99,"text":"有大圖幅小圖幅依照作戰成績不同對你大圖是多少有兩萬五分一五萬分一對你的大圖是五萬分之一但是海圖呢"},{"start":292.858,"end":298.42,"text":"當我們要掌握大的格局區域安全情勢的時候你各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正以後它是可以套點這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢"},{"start":320.06,"end":320.14,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":337.108,"end":358.065,"text":"我建議這個UTM的圖要加快因為這個國際情勢變化很快美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快如果圖資不能跟上你的準則叫範完全不能跟上所以同樣在這個情況下我們的國防大學的這個子參教育的圖集要同步更新"},{"start":359.418,"end":383.915,"text":"另外我是建議包括航圖像這個在國際航圖圖的本身現在都不是機密但圖上掛的資料是機密所以共同圖像的平台是可以政府內部甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平台那我下面可以顯示給您看用了共同圖像以後你的判斷如何會方便起來所以烏東戰場就兩個台灣沒有了"},{"start":387.022,"end":387.702,"text":"達到今天是977天了"},{"start":412.823,"end":414.784,"text":"：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康："},{"start":441.801,"end":464.649,"text":"這是把臺灣圖轉90度我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖用的是方法論臺灣如果暫時美國有三天的時間在你東岸可以控制宮古巴士掌握狀況他並沒有來幫你我們來面對挑戰國際航線這是中共發布的演習這個遼寧號航線的位置"},{"start":470.293,"end":477.496,"text":"國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖是示意圖我們了解當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像對於每一個層級開會尤其是國安層級能夠有一個更客觀的圖像"},{"start":498.592,"end":498.632,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":521.964,"end":529.525,"text":"聯演範圍涵蓋多遠演習期程可長可短演習步驟可快可慢軍警同步"},{"start":530.814,"end":533.256,"text":"提供長官一個客觀周延的一個平台判斷平台我們把圖持續套疊上去那這個是示意圖"},{"start":558.991,"end":581.916,"text":"我們可以用路途海圖航圖經過比照套疊產生不同的效果那可以看到更細的部位包括我的涵蓋徵收範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍這個裡面我用的是是概括的但是我這個方法告訴各位讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍哪些要透過跟友盟情之交換"},{"start":582.756,"end":583.977,"text":"提供給長官一個比較宏觀客觀﹚很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷﹚"},{"start":601.356,"end":617.007,"text":"中共執行歷鑒演習,我們也這個方法論都論出來了,最後因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議,這個我們會後把這個當作資料提供貴部做參考,因為時間剛剛到位,謝謝耐心,請部長做一個指導。"},{"start":621.779,"end":639.595,"text":"這個陳委員所指教的建立這個共同作戰圖像這個也是應該的那當然我們現行已經你也知道有一些共同作戰圖像的一個行程那現在您剛指教的就是說各軍種的這個部分那麼我們現在海軍跟空軍的部分已經有納入"},{"start":640.616,"end":663.264,"text":"路徑的部分我想我們會盡快的再加速來建設另外我想更重要的是一個指管的備援的韌性您剛也提到就是說去中心化它本身不是一個目的而是在我們一旦面臨的狀況的時候我們還能夠遂行的它依照它的任務來遂行它的依照它的任務的這個"},{"start":664.889,"end":665.069,"text":"羅美玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":131,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時25分）主席好，有請顧部長及陸、海、空軍參謀長。"],["主席：請部長及三軍參謀長。"],["陳委員永康：部長，您早。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員早。"],["陳委員永康：由於近來國際情勢的動態變化，再加上中共的軍演施壓，我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力，當然在您的領導下分層負責授權，但我們還是覺得我們還有共同努力的空間。因為談到國際情勢，您剛剛的報告裡面提到的就跟美國Blinken講的一樣，就是說朝鮮半島、東海、臺海、南海會有連動的關係，因此我們國軍在戰略預警態勢上的範疇就不是完全聚焦在臺海周遭，這個東西需要用一個共同圖像，請各位看一下，臺灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況，美方善意派來的JTT成員大部分是陸戰的經驗，以烏克蘭兩年多的經驗累積起來的，所以強調的是分散式指管、去中心化，去中心化、分散式指管在烏克蘭在北約跟美方提供的，因為它的部隊幅員散布很廣，它的鏈路受限，所以是去中心化。但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易，海、空軍的去中心化非常難，請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡？可以去中心化嗎？你海上的攔截做制海，比方講，將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭，你有30公里、70公里，甚至300公里射程，跟魚叉飛彈的射程是相同，請問去中心化以後如何使用？所以去中心化是一個手段，是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷、不完整、分層負責，各作戰區有瞭解，去中心化（decentralized）從頭到尾不是目標，所以你同時在指管系統的強化下去強化它的韌性，至於地面部隊分層負責，那個去中心化是容易實現的。","各位看這張圖，幅員這麼大，我們現在講的俄烏東部戰區，實際上在庫爾斯克，只是在右上角的那一小塊，沒有大進展，但以臺灣的大小來說，在烏東、烏南可以放兩個臺灣進去了。在這種情況下的指管，我們如何用去中心化？我們更要強化目前網路鏈路的韌性。所謂去中心化，應該是旅級以下的部隊分層負責授權，你的戰區絕對不能去中心化，尤其是我們建立的共同圖像，結合資料庫，這裡面有許多是real time information的sharing，如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像，去中心化以後，那就是用簡單的圖了。我想請教陸軍參謀長，你現在UTM的圖90張，你要把它改成數位化，什麼時間可以完成？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求，因為這個製圖從測繪、偽造都需要相當的時間，目前已經有一定產製出來的成果，這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作。"],["陳委員永康：我當然了解你那個限制因素啦，這不光是401廠的問題，事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖，你要跟衛星同步校正，現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的座標圖，我們空軍用的圖，JNC、ONC的圖，UTM座標圖是幾萬分之一？"],["陳參謀長建義：有大圖幅、小圖幅，依照作戰層級不同。"],["陳委員永康：對，你大圖是多少？"],["陳參謀長建義：有兩萬五分一、五萬分一。"],["陳委員永康：對，你的大圖是五萬分之一啦！"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["陳委員永康：但是海圖呢？二十萬分之一、五十萬分之一，範圍……"],["陳參謀長建義：對，都有，按照比例跟範圍。"],["陳委員永康：按照比例。那航空圖呢？五十萬分之一、百萬分之一，甚至兩百萬分之一，所以當我們要掌握大的格局、區域安全情勢的時候，各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正，WGIS校正以後，它是可以套疊，這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢。在場的同仁，我們的專業背景不同，工作經驗不同，可是你沒有一個共同圖像提供一個完整的判斷，就會產生在下決策過程中間或是在討論過程中間，比較難得到一個完整的共識。關於這個部分，我建議這個UTM的圖要加快，因為國際情勢變化很快，美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快，如果圖資不能跟上，你的準則教範完全不能跟上，所以同樣在這個情況下，我們國防大學指參教育的圖籍要同步更新。","另外，我是建議包括航圖，像在國際航圖，圖的本身現在都不是機密，但是圖上掛的資料是機密，所以共同圖像的平臺是可以政府內部，甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平臺，那我下面可以顯示給您看，用了共同圖像以後，你的判斷如何會方便起來，所以烏東戰場就兩個臺灣沒有了，加薩走廊以色列也不過是三分之二個臺灣。如果我們通通用小比例的圖，那你就看不到大格局，你用大格局的圖，你不知道細部，所以三軍的圖要通通校正能夠套疊，這個時候我們在指揮中心長官判斷才能客觀。俄烏戰爭打到今天是977天，一定是在明年美國新任總統就職完，大概才來看條件怎麼談，在這種情況下，它的變化其實是不是每天大變化，因此在烏克蘭的作戰中間，因為是Starlink全程support它，跟我們未來的所謂的OneWeb，國軍還希望進一步地要跟它努力來定義清楚。","下面這個圖各位看一下，我們很快的走一下，這是把臺灣地圖轉90度，我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖，用的是方法論。臺灣如果戰時美國有三天的時間在你東岸，可以控制宮古、巴士掌握狀況，他並沒有來幫你，我們來面對挑戰。國際航線，這是中共發布的演習，遼寧號航艦的位置套疊前三次的演習，所以所有的狀況用圖像再掛上資料庫。國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖、是示意圖，我們了解，當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像，對於每一個層級開會，尤其是國安層級，能夠有一個更客觀的圖像。","剛才講到的，包括布林肯都講了，朝鮮半島、東海、臺海、南海，這個周遭的細部圖都要能夠比對套疊，包括動態，那我們關心的是什麼呢？不只是動態的情勢，左邊的這幾個和中間的部分，我相信很多我們都很努力在做，但是有些地方也需要強化，包括戰略預警，期程多遠？聯演兵力，規模多大？聯演範圍，涵蓋多遠？演習期程，可長可短？演習步驟，可快可慢？軍警同步，維權施壓？那我們在看的是反應時間，戰備提升？反應作為，快速整備？共同圖像，全程掌握？情資分享、友盟合作？國安戰略，指導部會？社會韌性，全程對應？這裡面我一直到今天向大家強調的就是共同圖像，提供長官一個客觀周延的判斷平臺。","我們把圖持續套疊上去，這個是示意圖，我們可以用陸圖、海圖、航圖經過比照套疊，產生不同的效果，那可以看到更細的部位，包括我的涵蓋偵搜範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍。這裡面我用的是概估的，但是我這個方法告訴各位，讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍，哪些要透過跟友盟情資交換。所有的圖像都要校正套疊，這裡面的經緯度是全部比例，各位看過的大圖、小圖通通校正過的，這個時候就提供給長官一個比較宏觀、客觀，很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷，包括朝鮮半島最近的緊張狀況，所以中共執行這個利劍演習，我們也把方法論都論出來了。最後，因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議，會後我們把這部分當作資料提供給貴部參考。因為剛剛時間到了，謝謝各位的耐心，請部長指導。"],["顧部長立雄：我想陳委員所指教的建立共同作戰圖像，這個也是應該的，當然我們現行，你也知道，已經有一些共同作戰圖像的形成，您剛剛指教各軍種的部分，我們現在海軍跟空軍已經有納入，陸軍的部分我想我們會儘快的再加速來建置。另外，我想更重要的一個是指管的備援、韌性。您剛剛也提到，去中心化本身不是一個目的，而是在我們一旦面臨了狀況的時候，我們還能夠依照他的任務對他的要求，來遂行他的任務的達成，所以指管韌性的建置，我們一定要多重，然後要備援，當然一直要到各作戰區，這是我們現在一直在努力的方向。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長，大家加油，共同努力。"],["顧部長立雄：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員，各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是羅美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}