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謝謝是好那請三位委員三位委員就是我們的沈伯陽委員還有徐一貞委員還有張熙楷委員"},{"start":2195.307,"end":2215.386,"text":"那張熙蓋委員不在現場是不是徐一貞委員跟沈博洋委員你們兩個就是互推就是說順序就是那個輪值的順序就是在下一次的會議是由這一次的會議開始了就由你們那個哪一位來主持你們兩位"},{"start":2219.582,"end":2236.851,"text":"好,那就是沈博洋委員那接續就是徐宇貞委員那第三是張錫楷委員好那接下來那你唸完就換我唸好,沒問題"},{"start":2248.171,"end":2250.912,"text":"好謝謝大家那請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第129屆經費稽核委員會第二次會議議事錄時間113年6月21日星期五中午12時10分至13時26分地點本院群閑樓101會議室"},{"start":2271.903,"end":2290.2,"text":"初席委員翁曉琳委員等6人請假委員徐宇貞委員等3人列席人員張副秘書長玉榮等14人祥千道部主席賴會員委員紀錄黃秋彥一、報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定一、議事錄確定二、"},{"start":2290.68,"end":2311.862,"text":"一、民主進部黨立法院黨團113年5月30日來函推派賴慧如委員擔任第129屆上半年會期經費稽核委員會召集委員二、本院113年度預算執行情形報告截至113年5月止決定準與被查二、"},{"start":2314.404,"end":2324.046,"text":"臨時動議．張雅琳委員提．立法院院會開會時．並未配置簡報筆．不利委員自行操作之需求．建請徵購院會問政所需配備．決議請資訊處及總務處嚴處．二．"},{"start":2329.668,"end":2344.351,"text":"本院導覽只有一種簡報模式為考量學生及兒童參觀立法院之需求建議應提供適合兒童理解是簡報版本及士林相關介紹的文宣介紹品"},{"start":2346.809,"end":2363.122,"text":"決議請秘書處嚴處三、現為AI數位時代委本院提供給委員的資訊工具的選擇未能跟上潮流建議考量提供雲端儲存空間遠距工作的工具如Notion等以符合委員問證需求決議請資訊處嚴處二、"},{"start":2367.725,"end":2395.536,"text":"翁曉琳委員提一、立法院目前有關公費助理均以專職專任聘用似乎不落學校的靈活運用請研議未來是否在委員公費助理人事費用的額度內可以聘請專兼任或是部分工時的助理人員使得人員的聘用更具有彈性決議請人事處研議並於一個月內提出報告給本院委員本會委員"},{"start":2396.596,"end":2420.386,"text":"二、現在已進入AI時代（立法院AI數位環境部分是不足的建議未來因編列AI導入訓練費用研發AI智慧宣讀法案做文字記錄並進行智慧國會研究案從技術與管理層面思考如何提升相關數位環境讓立法院成為智慧的國會決議請資訊處及議事處研議於下次會議提出計劃案"},{"start":2424.688,"end":2440.989,"text":"三、目前只有委員會舉辦的公聽會邀請專家學者才可以支領出席費而立法委員問政或研擬法案也是需要邀請專家學者提供諮詢及建議為協助委員問政需求請研議"},{"start":2442.21,"end":2468.523,"text":"委員如邀請專家學者就法案諮詢等事項在一定額度內致領出息費之可行性決議請主計處研議三、賴會委員提中興大樓電梯近期異常狀況頻傳也發生委員被困的情形為避免引起恐慌請總務處將目前電梯現有的狀況資料完整提供給中興大樓及本會委員參考決議照案通過"},{"start":2471.184,"end":2492.879,"text":"四、內會委員．張其楷委員．歐小林委員提為顧及所有搭乘中心大樓電梯人員安全需徹底解決電梯易礦頻傳的問題請儘速評估電梯內部新舊整合需要多少時間或者考量全面更新並研擬最妥適的解決方案決議請總務處嚴處宣讀完畢"},{"start":2498.493,"end":2507.199,"text":"好 那請問各位委員有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處吳小林委員請現在還在確定還在確定議事錄對 對"},{"start":2512.574,"end":2515.015,"text":"議事錄沒問題的話議事錄確定齁"},{"start":2540.393,"end":2540.953,"text":"請主席處的許處長進行報告"},{"start":2562.833,"end":2582.57,"text":"主席各位委員大家好以下緊就立法院113年度截至9月份指預算執行情形報告本院為國家最高立法機關為持續推展任務各項經費收支均因實際需要按相關規定核實辦理以有效支援委員議案審查工作"},{"start":2583.351,"end":2593.259,"text":"有關113年度截至9月份指（預算執行情形（請強附表一蓋礦表附表二明細表緊究稅率類經費類項目重點內容說明如後一稅率類113年度稅率類預算共編列10713000元截至9月份指累計分配數10295000元"},{"start":2607.551,"end":2607.571,"text":"二、經費類（"},{"start":2622.688,"end":2627.091,"text":"113年度經費類．區分一般行政．委員問政業務等9個業務計劃共編列預算36億4713萬3000元截至9月份指累計分配數26億8247萬6000元累計實質數24億5198萬5000元執行率91.41%主要區分下列三大項目"},{"start":2648.484,"end":2668.62,"text":"一、委員問政專項經費本項目包括委員稅費及公費公費助理、國會交流事務委員會館、問政相關業務及黨團補助等6個工作計畫項目共編列委員、問政及選民服務等相關經費14億6935萬9千元截至9月份止累計分配數11億4089萬7千元"},{"start":2675.586,"end":2704.826,"text":"累計實質數十億七千七百九十六萬六千元執行率百分之九十四點四八主要包括委員稅供費及選民服務費供費助理籌集及加班費等人事費九億三千三百八十八萬元委員研究室住宿會館水電通訊費團體保險辦公室務費交通費及國會交流等業務費一億三千三百九十四萬六千元黨團補助費一千零一十四萬元"},{"start":2705.906,"end":2722.872,"text":"二、議事行政支援經費本項目包括一般行政、議事業務、立法諮詢業務、國會圖書業務、公報業務及第一未經等6個工作計劃項目共編列議事行政支援及職工人員維持等相關經費19亿9512萬4千元截至9月份止累計分配數14亿8610萬5千元"},{"start":2730.695,"end":2744.158,"text":"累計實質數13億7124萬2千元執行率92.27%主要包括職工信奉保險及退休租金等人事費9億9890萬5千元面區水電通訊費資訊服務費辦公房舍及公務車輛養護國會頻道委託轉播等業務費3億4255萬8千元"},{"start":2755.501,"end":2776.189,"text":"土書資料庫購置等設備費2828萬6千元退休職工三節慰問金及年節特別照護金等獎補助費149萬3千元三、一般建築及設備經費本項目包括營建工程、交通及運輸設備及其他設備等三個工作計劃項目共編列1億8265萬元"},{"start":2779.35,"end":2794.986,"text":"包括本院委員住宿會館整修委員公務用車輛汰換各項資訊應用系統開發及軟硬體設備構置汰換數位影音儲存資料庫及數位印刷機等案截至9月份止累計分配數5547萬4千元"},{"start":2798.43,"end":2806.979,"text":"累計實質數277萬7千元執行率5.01%主要系113年度會議設錄影設備更新案等兩案已完成驗收課證辦理後續相關請款作業另113年度會議錄影數位影音儲存系統擴充案等案正積極辦理中致影響預算執行進度"},{"start":2822.674,"end":2839.319,"text":"三、節育以上系本院113年度截至9月份執至預算執行情形（均依業務實際需要及規定程序本準節原則何時檢討辦理整體預算執行上稱正常緊究重點內容而要報告敬請指教謝謝"},{"start":2860.519,"end":2863.34,"text":"那先請問在場委員對於剛剛這一個許處長竟將報告這個預算執行的情形報告有沒有意見"},{"start":2878.374,"end":2886.761,"text":"沒有的話那我們決定立法院113年度截至9月份為止的預算執行報告準予被查然後接下來我們就進入臨時動議請問對"},{"start":2892.835,"end":2909.64,"text":"在臨時動議可以因為他有一個表格是之前對你上一次臨時動議的回覆那對於這些回覆有再進一步的意見就現在都可以提是好我想要針對我上次在開會的時候我有提案對於這個立法院是不是可以延聘專接讓還有部分工時人員那這個相關的承辦處事"},{"start":2914.682,"end":2935.489,"text":"已經有做回覆其實當時有到我辦公室來跟我報告可是我還是認為說是不是可以研議一個修法的方案畢竟我們立法委員我們是聘的是公費助理也是利用立法院裡面的資源事實上的確是有需要有彈性"},{"start":2937.438,"end":2937.598,"text":"委員會委員會議"},{"start":2958.729,"end":2959.469,"text":"立法院的公告"},{"start":2986.135,"end":2999.146,"text":"在網頁上面沒有一個徵才公告的藍位我們現在聘請立法委員的公費助理都必須要自己花錢去刊登什麼104或11人力銀行但是其實很多的機關他們基本上都會有設置一個本機關的徵才啟示"},{"start":3008.513,"end":3008.953,"text":"好 謝謝那其實是兩件那我們先請說明"},{"start":3040.237,"end":3056.523,"text":"好 因為剛剛是在前面的那個時候要介紹不過我們先介紹一下我覺得這個也是我們補助一下程序好那我們介紹一下本院這個周秘書長 萬來大家都認識然後我們的張副秘書長玉榮他請教有黃顧問代理有這個黃泉忠顧問代理 謝謝然後我們秘書處的孔處長秉潔"},{"start":3071.494,"end":3080.742,"text":"謝謝我們的國際事務處林處長陳副義事處高處主百祥公報處的蘇處長顯新總務處廖處長窘智資訊處鄭處長回賓法治局郭局長明正預算中心黃主任曹金"},{"start":3099.251,"end":3127.554,"text":"國會圖書館林館長瑞文中南部中心邱主任俊隆益政博物館嚴館長乙亮人事處的黃處長瑞月還有剛剛大家都已經聽到的主計處的許處長靜江那剛剛因為等於是有兩個臨時動議那第一個部分還是跟這一個人事處有關所以我們是不是請黃處長瑞月先做一個說明"},{"start":3130.718,"end":3132.504,"text":"他的兩個結束以後他還有一個統一徵財公告那個"},{"start":3143.671,"end":3168.811,"text":"各位委員 民主黨 大家午安有關翁曉琳 翁委員提出來這個案子我們上一次也依照那個決議提了書面報告給本會的委員當然如同委員剛剛所提到的這是一個比較彈性的做法因為本院雖然組織法沒有明定一定要專職專任來任用可是我們歷年來都是用專職跟專任來任用"},{"start":3170.032,"end":3184.466,"text":"在回應那個法院跟檢調單位有關助理費用的那個爭議相關爭議的時候我們也都是以專職專任來回復這樣委員那如果說要把它修訂比較彈性的那是不是"},{"start":3185.687,"end":3205.501,"text":"會有一些問題那當然是不是說我們可以參酌那個就是地方民意代表那個資給費用的補助條例第6條的規定他們在今年有修法就把它那個日新制明定在那個條文裡面那這樣也要委員達成共識啊那有修相關的法案那我們當然就會依照配合來辦理"},{"start":3209.898,"end":3212.639,"text":"法治局也說明一下看這個要怎麼解決"},{"start":3242.922,"end":3243.282,"text":"有關這個提案的話"},{"start":3248.724,"end":3269.569,"text":"在立法院大概20幾年有關這個內規的提案通常都是由各黨團提案然後因為這個是簽到全院委員聘請公會助理的業務的事情這個通常都是由各黨團有公視各黨團提案然後由院長來照理一下因為這個簽到各個委員他聘請公會助理要不要彈性的"},{"start":3271.3,"end":3271.64,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3294.724,"end":3316.68,"text":"委員聘請公會助理我們一開始人事局會跟委員報告委員就是這個公會助理的雇主我們法治局有研究德國的立法律有研究日本的立法律有研究美國的立法律我們這個公會助理的制度是承襲美國公會助理的制度可是當我們再去看的時候"},{"start":3317.481,"end":3340.644,"text":"美國的眾議院德國的眾議員他們在聘請公衛助理的時候他們很少去簽那個招因為公衛助理然後聘請公衛助理的問題然後那些眾議員被因為涉貪賭的事情然後被起訴他的根本原因是在哪裡是在美國的德國的刑法他明文規定說中央級的民意代表這些"},{"start":3341.755,"end":3369.706,"text":"委員、眾議員他不屬於他們德國刑法的公務員的定義範圍這個是一個根本要解決的問題如果說沒有這樣子做一個徹底的解決的話我想每個委員都會有親身到說像美國眾議員他只做一個規定不能聘請三星等範圍之內的親屬當助理可是我們台灣的立法院沒有這樣子的"},{"start":3371.969,"end":3378.536,"text":"根本性的問題我是覺得要針對新法第10條公務員的定義來做 因為我們新法第10條在94年"},{"start":3381.192,"end":3404.63,"text":"修正之後就沒有那個可是我覺得把立法院把它說定義是公務員的定義限制在公務員的定義這個造成將來的所有的那個立法院會不自覺你聘請自己的老婆自己的小孩自己的三親等的話就會被剪掉這個是很不合理的在此這樣建議說"},{"start":3406.551,"end":3431.092,"text":"主要彈性醫療 我是建議說 這個是不是要修新法定案我們有做一份報告 我試一下再給各位做參考 這樣可不可以好 謝謝法局的說明我有一個問題想請教那個法制局長 所以就是說麻煩請那個局長之後可以將你們的研修報告也送一份給我們然後另外一個部分 我剛剛本來是要講什麼"},{"start":3434.706,"end":3461.214,"text":"統一增產公告嗎?還是同一件事?統一增產公告還沒有回你的意思就是說反正我們不是決議說一算我們要去提案修法修兩個一個立法院組織法嘛公費助理也可以用那個就是說part-time的這種部分工時的嘛比較彈性有時候會用到部分工時然後第二個就是公務員的那個定義那個就這兩個那個就是各黨團自己的對對對"},{"start":3463.75,"end":3487.048,"text":"我剛想到的地方就是說因為剛剛是處長還有局長這邊講說我們立法委員好像形式上像是公費助理的雇主但是事實上在我們現在公務預算上面來講我們並不是啊我們雇主還是以立法院為主我們每個立法委員我們又不能夠開統編 可以嗎不是不是 就是助理 那個立法委員就是公費助理的雇主"},{"start":3488.187,"end":3511.324,"text":"立法委員就是公費助理的僱主那所以理論上全應該全部都要進我們的進我們這裡我們再發可是事實上現在並不是這樣啊對我們跟那個地方不太一樣是後來像那個我們就幫委員辦理我們還是編列一定的預算給委員那請問所以我們每個立法委員理論上都應該有一個僱主編號譬如說是像是什麼事業單位有嗎我們有統編嗎"},{"start":3513.085,"end":3537.23,"text":"現在就不要講說回歸到地方議會而是就現行的法規來講我們就不是雇主你們概念上認為我們是雇主可是實際上我們就不是雇主啊我們所有的薪水都是由你們去付是是這個請秘書長說明秘書長"},{"start":3540.219,"end":3561.291,"text":"那個三十二條規定是很清楚啦因為這個背景當時是在八十二年前是全部是由聯事室來作業啦那當時是恰好是有些助理比如說那時候張俊雄委員的助理那個大概七條委員大概知道在劉聰偉院長的辦公室外面啦"},{"start":3561.67,"end":3588.073,"text":"買一鍋召喚在抗議所以後來就改成這一個在88年就改成這個條文那就固執就是由委員來聘用那從82年當時開始那時候秘書長是社生戶他就把它切了但是沒有法制的當時還沒有立這個法所以在無法修的時候就變成32條所以這為什麼這固執的概念是由你聘用的不是由立法院來聘用的"},{"start":3589.154,"end":3603.25,"text":"這個概念在這個地方所以你的僱主是立法委員公衛助理的職主就是立法委員所以就變成說你的名單報到聯事處來聯事處幫你做一些行政作業而已"},{"start":3603.911,"end":3629.776,"text":"不是立法院來聘說你要哪一個助理我立法院派給你 不是所以要從三兆條那個精神去看那固執當然是立法委員是這樣來看所以可能公園人家看三兆條可能在實際的在我是把當時的整個背景來說明因為這邊當時是在民國八十二年是抗爭的包括馬永成那學弟馬永成也在那邊抗爭阿"},{"start":3630.556,"end":3652.435,"text":"如果說是按照秘書長的說法的話我建議是不是以後我們每個委員就有一個自己的預算書就是要分別因為我們現在所有的助理的費用不是都是編載立法院的統一的預算他也不是所以從外觀上面來看大家會認為立法院是雇主而不是立法委員個人是雇主如果我們是雇主的話我們當然有很大的彈性"},{"start":3656.62,"end":3682.486,"text":"現在我們等於是只是有這個彈性自由空間我們可以自己去聘公費助理但形式上還是立法院給的薪水然後我們勞健保各方面都是立法院做你們不能那個概念說我們只是服務立法委員一些行政作業在整個公務預算上面來講小林委員的意思就是說要讓他比較法治化應該是正面的思考"},{"start":3684.207,"end":3684.748,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3698.243,"end":3720.266,"text":"委員好不好意思跟委員報告一下其實每個委員他就是公費助理的雇主是沒有問題只是說委員你有這樣子的疑惑嘛但其實最以前的狀態其實就是您剛剛說的那樣沒錯就是應該要每一個委員他是一個勞健保字號然後各自去承辦但是我們之前225位委員太多了"},{"start":3721.087,"end":3721.107,"text":"委員﹚"},{"start":3738.991,"end":3761.859,"text":"辛苦就是因為每個辦公室都要去做這些勞健保的事務的時候是非常麻煩的所以統一由立法院幫大家辦理但是委員還是他有自由聘用人的權益所以其實那個聘書是委員跟公費助理簽的並不是助理跟立法院簽的所以委員您可以看一下其實您在聘用助理的時候都是有跟助理簽聘用契約的"},{"start":3762.719,"end":3788.225,"text":"所以其實是他並不是跟立法院簽契約的這樣子那至於說為什麼說就是由立法院統一辦理其實這是很久以前演變過來的過程就是說如果東西都給每個委員承辦的時候其實是造成委員辦公室很大的負擔所以才轉由立法院幫大家統一辦理這樣然後還有第二件事情是委員您剛剛說就是其實錢應該要統一給委員去做發放其實一開始也是這樣子的"},{"start":3789.045,"end":3804.906,"text":"就是我們在很久以前就是公費助理的薪水錢是給委員在由委員去發放的但是就有很多弊案就是發生非常多就是用人頭啊或是什麼爭議所以才變成說我們直接匯到助體的戶頭"},{"start":3806.047,"end":3817.075,"text":"但是那個直接化住的戶頭也是經由委員同意的就是委員會告訴我們說每個人是多少錢我們依照委員給我們的資料才去發給下面的所以其實這個主導權也還是在委員身上的"},{"start":3821.195,"end":3836.538,"text":"因為我自己過去我在勞動部訴願會我擔任很多年的委員如果說是從雇主的定義來看的話你們剛剛說除了立法委員是雇主之外我認為從勞基法的角度來講立法院是雇主的責任也跑不掉喔"},{"start":3837.159,"end":3840.14,"text":"有重屬性,金錢是你們發的所以我認為這個事情其實是要徹底解決如果說按照你們剛剛的說法立法委員就是立法委員助理的雇主那我們當然有很大的彈性然後我們可以聘臨時人員聘兼職人員"},{"start":3854.707,"end":3855.187,"text":"謝謝王委員 民主黨說要補充一下 我想說再補充一下脈絡"},{"start":3877.383,"end":3899.215,"text":"當然再整個讓公委瞭解一下你那個助理的加班會還是由你報來的我這樣再補充一下不是立法院給你的加班會是還是由你報來他們才在撥給你所以為什麼現在剛才法術局長一直在強調的原因是花生問題藏在哪個地方"},{"start":3900.246,"end":3919.734,"text":"市長,因為我在院裡已經發生過太多了,太多事,包括現在的高原的事都還要有這個問題在。那原因在哪裡?就因為固執在你,所以會有這個爭端,所以才剛才法制局長才會提出他的想法給各位做參考啦。"},{"start":3920.214,"end":3932.451,"text":"那如果說以剛才你所提的僱主以加班會然後我們的312條規定還是由立法委員從那邊報來我們聯思處才作業而已並不是說聯思處來幫你做這個加班會的問題是這樣"},{"start":3936.116,"end":3956.297,"text":"小林委員的意思就是說讓他回歸到正常的法制化因為這閉端呢就是不管怎麼樣都有可能有閉端這個制度跟那個制度都有可能發生他還是指法制化那因為主席應該是結論就是請他們要他們有做報告嘛那延期的報告送到大家看一下阿如果我們委員會要修法我們就自己大家就來提案修法"},{"start":3956.377,"end":3958.658,"text":"主計處有需要嗎?有沒有想要多補充一點?科目的問題"},{"start":3978.612,"end":4001.851,"text":"報告主席各位委員有關那個預算的部分因為立法院也是屬於中央政府各機關的其中一員所以我們是編單位預算所以剛剛委員有提到說是不是每個委員都有一本預算的話就我們目前的情形來講我們還是要以立法院這個單位去編列相關的預算然後依照也是中央政府各機關在預算編制的各項的標準或者是一些規定"},{"start":4002.912,"end":4009.32,"text":"然後統一編列以後才會有行政院那邊來彙製成中央政府總預算案以上報告"},{"start":4026.88,"end":4051.583,"text":"主席委員有關那個徵材的部分的話目前的話是各個委員的話是在自己的全球資訊網的網頁去PO那個訊息沒有統一的會診如果說委員中的需求的話我們倒是可以去做一個版情的設計也是各委員自己來登打然後我們統一會診在全球資訊網這邊來公告整個會後我們再去研議整個做法的話來開發相關的程式以上報告"},{"start":4054.362,"end":4059.345,"text":"我首先要表揚總務處小智廖處長我在颱風天的時候到立法院來工作還看到他在巡視我們的院區颱風風雨交加的時候很認真這先表揚一下第二個"},{"start":4083.101,"end":4105.429,"text":"對阿 做得好我們講喔那第二個第二個我看到桌上有一份這個委員用車時數這個齁我覺得這個齁這是之前的這個那時候有通過我覺得這東西不要公告這次當然是吳佩玉委員雖然是不同黨派但是因為每位委員齁像台北市的委員或是其他選秀用的時間不一定是怎麼樣我反而是覺得說"},{"start":4106.77,"end":4121.81,"text":"總務處 這是應該是總務處的嘛是應該去檢討一下在以我們現在的車跟人的情況下比如說可能進的選區委員他可能覺得他自己車比較方便遠的選區委員可能需要的就會比較多中南部也都情況不一樣第一個我是提議這個以後就不要再公告了"},{"start":4122.29,"end":4133.139,"text":"像今天的午會這個就不要公告因為這個我們可以決議這以前我當過稽核委員那第二個部分就是說是不是統計一下這個時數是對委員來講比如說可能有時候這個月忙那個月不忙你們在調度上面有沒有可能不是說用每個月或是用兩個月或是怎麼樣你在人事車人的調度上再符合勞基法又可以的話時間上怎麼樣彈性可以讓大家來做調整比如說有時候這個月很忙比如像七、八月可能就很不忙但因為你們還有人的"},{"start":4150.814,"end":4151.695,"text":"整個檢討一下齁 你檢討一下你們的人和車夠不夠"},{"start":4176.798,"end":4185.211,"text":"那關於公告這一個齁 因為這個以前也是因為有 也是在這邊然後因為是委員說要公告所以才會變成所以我現在是提議我們決議嘛齁那這件事情比較簡單 等一下討論就好但是是不是先請總務處說明剛剛陳昀正委員的這個提案"},{"start":4194.81,"end":4224.154,"text":"主席各位委員謝謝委員的提問那這個關於派車時數是因為本院有113位委員但是我們平常只有51部車而且扣掉5部車要備請因此一天能派車的台數只有46台那因為委員的用車的這個頻率大部分都蠻頻繁那受限於這些我們的駕駛同仁他的勞基法的加班上限所以有一個公式算出來之後呢"},{"start":4224.594,"end":4249.017,"text":"大概用80小時當過去的約定數但是實際上可能會因為這個時數調整有差我們其實對於委員的時數並沒有用車時數的限制所以當我們有時數有額度同仁還有加班額度的話我們都會盡量配合委員的需求所以沒有時數限制的問題"},{"start":4249.838,"end":4272.836,"text":"有沒有週休二日只能派一天的限制另外週休二日是因為在假日我們的駕駛同仁上班他有一例一休的加班上限問題所以我們透過內規過去就有規定過因為如果我們六日都開放委員同時都可以申請那我們的駕駛人員是不夠因應大家的派車的"},{"start":4273.376,"end":4300.954,"text":"我覺得是這樣子你回去算一下現在也已經這麼多年了比如說像我知道很多臺北市選區的文他們自己新北雙北有時候他們根本都都不需要用車子那自己也有車子在他們的選區自己跑嘛有很多這樣的事情所以你還是按照去年已經好多年來的看到底的情形是怎麼樣有沒有可能這些內規有一些內規的這個改變還是先讓你們回去研究嘛看實際上怎麼樣是要比較有彈性嘛那大家也比較方便"},{"start":4301.314,"end":4329.801,"text":"那這個東西我覺得公告這個東西是有點比較侮辱委員這委員這個也不會故意要去那個 對不對所有這種以後就不要公告了那這個沒有問題如果大家沒有什麼意見的話我們之後就不再公告這一個那剛剛七開委員你是新的案子還是還是同一件事對對我也贊成以後就不要公告了你像吳佩儀吳委員就這個剛好這兩個也有重要事情嘛我建議以後就確實不要不要再公告了好不好好這個取消那另外我比較注重的是"},{"start":4330.561,"end":4355.302,"text":"等一下,是同一件事情嘛,因為等一下楊林文有一個提案首先我還是要表揚一下我們的秘書處啦因為上次我看到有非常多的小孩來參加參觀立法院可是我們之前的一些介紹對於小孩來說並不是那麼友善那所以後來這個秘書處有討論一個新的版本而且他們其實有辦了一些導覽講座去觀摩學習所以我覺得這個部分是要肯定一下秘書處啦"},{"start":4359.412,"end":4379.502,"text":"謝謝 謝謝針對兒少的面向讓他們可以更能夠理解國會到底在怎麼運作這樣那不過有一個新增提案啊最主要就是說因為其實也會有一些無障輪椅的使用者他們會來到立法院然後他們在參觀這個動線上面最主要就是會從立法院的大門口中山南路進來然後後來他們就會去檢報室看影片然後去參觀議場"},{"start":4380.823,"end":4394.438,"text":"我發現我們的檢報室門口還是有一個高低差所以變成是說在可是我們的無障礙廁所裡面其實是可以做一個小斜坡所以我在說我們是不是在檢報室前面那個路口也可以做一個小斜坡讓他們比較好進入因為那是他們行經的動線嘛"},{"start":4395.919,"end":4425.171,"text":"那第二個部分就是說因為在議場的部分我們現在是沒有這個電梯嘛所以他必須使用這個升降梯可是其實我們都會請民眾上二樓那就變成說如果有比較多的這個無障礙使用者要使用這個的時候這個時間因為我們可能安排導覽時間只有5到10分鐘可是他光排隊這個時間可能就會讓他來不及去看到所以是不是可以針對他們在如果有這些無障礙使用者來的時候我們是不是在這個流程上在二樓的時間停留上面"},{"start":4425.851,"end":4426.612,"text":"可以來做一些延長對 謝謝"},{"start":4439.724,"end":4445.487,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝張委員的提案那因為委員關心這個議題我們也十分重視那特別我們昨天也全院也去巡過一次針對各項使用者的需求那我們除了也張貼各種公告之外那委員所提的幾個地方我們會再研議除此之外也會進行全院再次的盤點那針對這個很多地方我們還會提供彈性就是活動式的生匠坡道"},{"start":4469.241,"end":4479.804,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4481.565,"end":4506.571,"text":"既然會全面一起檢視的時候那我在想說我們是不是可以在無障礙廁所裡面如果有空間的話是不是可以增加一個照護床因為他們有一些比較長有些小孩雖然長大身體長大了但是他們其實沒有辦法自理的他也是需要換尿布那當然換尿布的話用嬰兒的這個換尿布台其實對他們來說太小了所以如果有空間的話我們還是希望是不是可以爭取一個照護床來給他們做更換謝謝"},{"start":4507.671,"end":4507.731,"text":"主席"},{"start":4539.813,"end":4563.414,"text":"我理解那個可能經費上面那我只是說如果在我們經費還沒有到位之前我們把時間延長因為我們現在如果這5到10分鐘他在排隊他根本來不及上去然後他可能上去他就下來了對對對是好 這個我們配合辦理是那停留時間的部分那就不用再說明就是像剛剛講的這樣子"},{"start":4564.878,"end":4567.341,"text":"謝謝委員再來請旗開委員因為快一點我簡單提不見得要馬上解決好不好就是"},{"start":4575.245,"end":4598.012,"text":"事實上那個委員的六日派車我知道就是有加班的問題一律一休不過再想一下因為平常事實上很多委員平常可能沒有要用車可是六日有時候你只有卡一天難度真的很高我再想再想一下看有沒有今天不見得要馬上提出今天不要再回答了因為時間很有限那可能負責的想一下好不好好不好想一下那事情就是在中興大樓點推"},{"start":4599.733,"end":4623.13,"text":"每一部會議都有講這個嘛那個廖處長我看你有做那個報告了那最重要就是要落實啦盡快好不好每天在上上下下那個真的另外一個就是會館的問題我自己是沒有住啦不過很多委員住的委員都在蔓延可能我在品質上可能要想辦法再下禮拜會員一直在講說下禮拜我們去會館一下一會兒我們去看一下那一會兒回來我們再討論一下不過請大家"},{"start":4626.673,"end":4641.383,"text":"我先補充一下因為剛剛賴委員也有一個書面一模一樣就是說我也幫他講一下第一個就是中西大樓電梯大家都很關心然後再來就是會館"},{"start":4642.304,"end":4642.484,"text":"主席"},{"start":4658.328,"end":4683.335,"text":"主席不好意思我是那個剛才因為賴委員有講他有講到您說運動休閒的空間那我這邊提也是跟這個有點接近的啦就除了運動空間以外我們那個立法院是沒有不能說盥洗室有啦有那個警衛的盥洗室但是如果有休閒跟未來有運動空間的話這個部分是有它的必要性目前比較直接的是有些委員騎自行車來嘛"},{"start":4684.555,"end":4701.417,"text":"但現在基本上可能也卡在這個盥洗式的問題所以大家也不好做處理啦所以也是因為運動空間、休眠空間那我這邊也提這樣一個建議跟提醒好 謝謝好 謝謝憲熙委員 那這個這個廖處長想說他再回應一下 謝謝"},{"start":4704.392,"end":4723.663,"text":"感謝委員關心這些空間的問題目前我們的電梯的採購已經把前面的規劃設計的標案做完了我們也向行政院申請第二預備金等行政院合撥給我們我們的後面的標案的文件都做好了他給我們的錢的當天我們就可以上網招標了"},{"start":4724.643,"end":4746.249,"text":"第二,在委員的住宿空間的部分我們目前有兩個館一個是台北會館,一個是大安會館那大安會館目前正在施工中那最近我們也都聽取了各位委員的修正的意見那我們今天下午也會進行再做盤點那下週會邀請委員我們再次進行場刊我們希望未來提供給各位委員更好的一個住宿環境"},{"start":4747.89,"end":4764.068,"text":"此外就是剛剛我們委員提到的相關的一些空間那例如說以這個盥洗空間的話我們目前在中西大樓的樓下青島醫館的這個後面我們都有盥洗的空間那如果不足的部分我們再就現有的空間再進行檢討"},{"start":4766.923,"end":4773.866,"text":"中醫大樓樓下有盥洗室只是一般人沒有走下去看那他有一間在B1停車場那裡停車場是在更下面"},{"start":4781.204,"end":4795.373,"text":"在中興大樓地下樓就有盥洗室所以委員可以多下去 我們可以帶你們下去看一下然後青島醫館也有 青島醫館的盥洗室比較新 比較大"},{"start":4797.976,"end":4823.903,"text":"對,對,對,就是在電梯附近,不是不是,就是在樓下只是一般人很少走到那個地方看到但他有慣喜事那青島醫館也有慣喜事這個部分給各位參考那因為我們的院區的空間有限那如果有需要我們再盤點一些空間來進行修繕那提供給各位的需求,以上謝謝處長,好,那林委員請"},{"start":4825.104,"end":4849.464,"text":"既然我們在盤點空間的話我有一個小小的建議就是我們去其他國家的時候他們的國會的紀念品店都非常漂亮而且非常精美然後其實是可以讓大家參觀的人可以帶回去收藏我覺得這個也是很不錯所以如果我們有這個空間盤點出來我們是不是可以也準備一個紀念品店然後同時我們做更多的紀念品年輕化的一個設計讓更多來參觀的人也可以把這個東西帶回去這樣子"},{"start":4850.325,"end":4850.545,"text":"秘書處正在上網招標"},{"start":4872.906,"end":4883.689,"text":"上禮拜已經又在公告上網11月會決標我們也歡迎各種優質的廠商來立法院來設置具有國會尊嚴的紀念品中心提供更好的服務謝謝"},{"start":4900.976,"end":4902.777,"text":"你不用的東西就放著,我來收你那個速度好快"},{"start":4920.627,"end":4921.528,"text":"主席主席主席"}]}},{"id":"16183","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16183","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a60997feb9f3194873d1ad9f551ce5fa921fc04c64b87e30630a60d9e82dc33cf1785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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國發會昨天公布了延遲了兩個月的人口推估報告, 證實了少子高齡化社會"},{"start":1842.622,"end":1860.427,"text":"已經定型,而且是不可逆轉的局勢。 到了2025年,明年在兩個多月,臺灣一半的人口將超過45歲,壯世代成為勞動的主力。 到了2070年,我國15到64歲的人口數將降為697萬人,同樣的65歲上的人也佔697萬人。"},{"start":1873.82,"end":1895.964,"text":"人口跟青壯年跟壯時代人口相當所以混零經濟定型高齡社會定型混零經濟定型這是昨天這份報告當中很重要的兩個訊息那也證實了翻轉700萬的壯時代是成為國家發展動力唯一的出路"},{"start":1901.431,"end":1916.443,"text":"那壯世代是一場社會的覺醒運動,我在民間推動個人的覺醒,逐漸的取代老人跟因法族,也逐漸成為輿論的主流。這一年來進入國會推動政府的覺醒,"},{"start":1917.043,"end":1938.851,"text":"我要感謝過去陪同走過這條路的人,特別是在立法院由63位跨黨派的立委、240位的專家所組成的壯促會。還有感謝卓院長允諾成立的行政院的壯世代跨部會小組,還有陳時中政務委領導的13個部會。"},{"start":1941.212,"end":1959.634,"text":"一起來推動壯時代特別是勞動部推動壯時代重返至常不遺餘力所以最後我要拜託卓院長這個是國家興亡的信念這個一定要超越黨派的惡鬥以昌生為念所以拜託卓院長"},{"start":1960.495,"end":1986.145,"text":"全力來支持行政院壯世代政策辦公室的成立,以及拜託韓院長在立法院推動壯世代政策與產業發展促進法的立法工作當中,能夠給予大力的支持,希望在臺灣正式進入超高齡社會元年的時候,我們兩院能夠一起送給全民這兩份的大禮物。謝謝。"},{"start":1989.633,"end":1990.053,"text":"你知道臺電為什麼"},{"start":2014.322,"end":2042.597,"text":"幾千億 幾千億 一直虧損 像個無底洞一樣一旦虧損 就要求國庫來撥補撥了三千億不夠 又要再撥一千億你敢不撥補 它就給你漲電價為什麼台電就像個無底洞一樣 一直虧一直虧呢我幫大家找到原因了"},{"start":2043.649,"end":2068.896,"text":"因為臺灣有一群白狼族不斷地空手套白狼從臺電套取了大筆大筆幾百億幾百億的利益然後臺電坐視不理昨天我開了一場記者會舉發經濟部縱容這個白狼族空手套白狼在2017年的時候"},{"start":2071.803,"end":2097.785,"text":"有一家公司叫達德他獲得經濟部允許用百分之百獨資來取得允能的風場的經營當時經濟部就怕變成是一個套利的一個金錢遊戲所以呢規定限制如果發起的廠商"},{"start":2099.175,"end":2123.988,"text":"以後要試股,不可以試股到50%以下。 為什麼呢?因為政府給這些工廠的價格是非常高昂的。 台丁又短購電價是非常高昂的,有幾百億的利益在裡面。 不讓它變成套利的遊戲。 但是5年的時間你知道達德做了什麼事情嗎?"},{"start":2125.287,"end":2139.47,"text":"他從100%變成73%變成48%變成25%變成0成功的脫手了 完美的空手套白狼了"},{"start":2140.435,"end":2161.265,"text":"按照經濟部在他的事故會議當中的要求﹖曾經一度覺得事態嚴重﹖要求不可以再事故﹖不可以再變更﹖如果變更的話﹖就要裁罰19.2億元的違約賠償﹖另外加上不再給你短購的電價﹖"},{"start":2163.146,"end":2185.82,"text":"5.8元等候電價砍到剩2.13元的迴避成本就給你原來該給的不給你所謂的高昂的利益算起來3塊多的所謂的價差乘以5年的經營加上22億度的發電高達400億就是這樣子就被空手套牌套空了"},{"start":2186.943,"end":2192.848,"text":"這是為什麼今天臺電一直虧損經濟部一直在縱容空手套牌浪謝謝大家"},{"start":2217.55,"end":2230.766,"text":"經濟部長郭志輝突然提出了海外要蓋太陽能光電廠, 透過海底電纜或船運的方式將綠電送回臺灣。 天馬行空的奇想讓全國震驚。"},{"start":2231.769,"end":2256.379,"text":"大家都在問為何郭志輝部長會突如其來的拋出菲律賓蓋電廠買綠電的議題。今年6月17日,雲報公司宣布要在菲律賓蓋太陽能光電廠,並在9月24日向經濟部投審司遞件。目前只差部分的文件漏章,補件完成就可以完成被查。"},{"start":2257.659,"end":2271.785,"text":"這種速度跟預判的能力,似乎有神力加持,令人佩服不已。 國人都在問,為什麼綠有有總能超前部署,經濟部是綠有有圖利部嗎?"},{"start":2271.785,"end":2274.286,"text":"為何只有綠能,你我都不能?"},{"start":2275.256,"end":2290.057,"text":"行政程序法第6條寫得清清楚楚。 行政行為非有正當的理由不得為差別待遇。 但我們可以看到,從民進黨執政後,經濟部為綠油油開了各種的方便大門。"},{"start":2291.479,"end":2310.575,"text":"從臺南屏東的光電案,再到桃園的SRF案,都有經濟部圖利特定人的疑慮。 檢調系統,迄今沒有積極的查辦,這對奉公守法的民眾極為的不公平。 難道民進黨政府只為特定人服務,只會圖利自己人嗎?"},{"start":2311.716,"end":2330.516,"text":"郭志偉部長沒有經過通盤的考量就拋出要在菲律賓蓋電廠300公里海纜電力傳送回臺灣的損耗高達33%,高額的成本誰要負擔?一度電的成本是多少?預備賣給民眾多少?還是要由臺電等購?"},{"start":2331.877,"end":2335.438,"text":"巴西海峽蓋海底電纜可能面臨的主權爭議要怎麼解決?"},{"start":2335.438,"end":2335.858,"text":"未來的電價還要漲多少?"},{"start":2335.858,"end":2339.459,"text":"這些問題郭知維部長都沒有談。 10月16日雲報公司的股價一開盤就從216元漲到225元。 郭部長的這種操作不僅讓人懷疑是在圖利特定人。"},{"start":2353.764,"end":2367.572,"text":"臺灣目前沒有足夠的土地可以蓋光電。 民進黨政府又不要核電。 國部長只能著急地宣布在菲律賓蓋光電廠。 這無心之舉正好說明了臺灣的電不夠。 民進黨說不缺電,實際上卻是缺電缺很大。 臺電董事長也證實臺灣北部缺200億度電。"},{"start":2374.876,"end":2384.718,"text":"現在最大的問題是民進黨的意識形態作祟不願調整錯誤的能源政策導致臺電公司在113年編列了1286億購買235億度電114年編列1546億元購買286億度電臺電虧損連連只能調整電價補虧推損全國民眾只能幫民進黨錯誤的政策"},{"start":2406.26,"end":2409.751,"text":"謝謝徐宇貞委員的發言 接下來請登記第4號 洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":2423.891,"end":2437.759,"text":"主席、行政官員以及各位立院同仁執政不是家家酒我們希望中華民國長治久安就請行政團隊好好的瞭解民意、掌握民意並且貼近民意有人說"},{"start":2439.181,"end":2465.299,"text":"一個好的領導者或是好的執政團隊會有三個層次。 最上層次是能夠謀定而後動,領導國人帶領方向。 中層次是瞭解現在民眾苦民所苦,當看到民眾的需求的時候適時調整政策符合民意。 下層次是真的做了錯誤的決策的時候亡羊補牢猶未完矣。"},{"start":2466.32,"end":2481.291,"text":"但我們看到民進黨政府現在政府跟這三個層次完全沒有關係因為現在民進黨政府不只是沒有這三個層次還背道而馳跟台灣的主流民意對幹上個禮拜也就是這個禮拜"},{"start":2482.853,"end":2496.029,"text":"經濟部、教育部突然間都讓國人完全嘩然。 一下子經濟部長講說要在菲律賓種電。 一下子教育部要求青年扶勤同意書還要家長簽名蓋章。 我們要問"},{"start":2497.403,"end":2526.085,"text":"民進黨政府不要越活越回去2023年去年的2月的時候當時國防部預告說修所謂的全民動員防衛法的時候就已經讓國人擔憂認為說是不是會有所謂青年上戰場的疑慮不到一個月的時間國防部不敢修相關的法令教育部當時扶擒同意書也就悄悄下架沒想到選舉選完了現在教育部又再推出"},{"start":2526.545,"end":2526.565,"text":"三、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":2550.802,"end":2554.465,"text":"有拿綠卡的、有生活在其他國家的,都先回來一起保衛台灣這塊土地嗎?"},{"start":2568.675,"end":2592.42,"text":"不要把人的兒子死不了再來菲律賓重電把電賣交在別人的手上用數百公里的電纜或者是運輸船來運輸這樣子真的符合我們的經濟效益真的符合我們的國家安全嗎不要再說你是誤闖政治叢林的小白兔根本就是一個政治小白所以"},{"start":2593.3,"end":2614.117,"text":"我們拜託我們的官員們,好好瞭解現在的民意,主流的民意,掌握方向,執政不是家家酒,已經快上任半年了,不要再搞這種兒戲的把戲了,謝謝。謝謝洪峰凱委員的發言,接下來請登記第5號陳金威委的發言。"},{"start":2625.151,"end":2646.749,"text":"主席、各位官員、還有委員同事、媒體朋友,大家早安。我們光輝的10月同時也是粉紅乳癌防治月,所以今天讓我們藉由這個機會關心我們全國的婦女同胞。乳癌是台灣女性發生率第一名、死亡率第二名的癌症,每年有1萬多診斷的案例,"},{"start":2648.53,"end":2664.672,"text":"平均每天全台有31位被告知診斷出乳癌,也就代表有31個不知所措接到2號的家庭,並且有7.7位女性每天因為乳癌而過世。"},{"start":2665.914,"end":2693.103,"text":"而乳癌其中有一種三陰性﹐更是癌友們避之唯恐不及的大魔王﹐佔我們所有乳癌的比例12到15%﹐好發在年輕的女性﹐同時還有高復發率﹐高轉移率﹐高死亡率這樣的特性﹐它可以存活的關鍵在於是否發生轉移﹐一旦轉移到重要的器官﹐就會使存活率大大的降低﹐"},{"start":2693.903,"end":2718.048,"text":"前幾天我出席一場乳癌防治的活動﹖就遇到年僅29歲的年輕女生﹖過去漸漸從來沒有看到過紅字﹖也沒有家庭病史的健康寶寶﹖卻在某一天摸到左側乳房有硬塊﹖後續接受各種檢查才發現已經罹患了早期高風險的三陰性乳癌﹖"},{"start":2718.968,"end":2737.963,"text":"然而對於這名女孩知道罹患乳癌並非最痛苦的事而是整個治療過程和巨額的費用首先呢她必須扛起數百萬的自費新一代藥物兩年的治療期間醫療手術費用就超過500萬元"},{"start":2739.784,"end":2754.546,"text":"如果他沒有持續的暴病在科技業工作,加上家人幫忙,還有商業的保險支援,換做一般人根本難以負擔,直接的醫療支出以及間接的經濟損失都非常大。"},{"start":2755.987,"end":2779.853,"text":"雖說三陰性乳癌並非無藥可治﹐但比起我們現在健保給付的其他乳癌﹐比如早期荷爾蒙陽性﹐還有HER2陽性﹐都有多種藥物納入健保﹐唯有三陰性乳癌只給付了化療藥﹐但現在國際的指引﹐建議還必須加上免疫治療﹐且數前數後的輔助治療等等來降低復發﹐"},{"start":2780.953,"end":2807.378,"text":"很遺憾三陰性雖然佔比12到15%可是它就像乳癌個案的孤兒一樣至今最適宜的療法都尚未納入我們的健保給付所以在這裡本席呼籲政府加速彌補這樣子的缺口把完整的化療並用免疫療法納入我們不要去漏接任何一位的乳癌病友希望落實健康平權一起翻轉謝謝"},{"start":2812.571,"end":2818.829,"text":"謝謝陳金威委員的發言。 報告委員會,現在登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢。 我們現在休息。"},{"start":5408.917,"end":5416.539,"text":"現在我們開會,因程序委員會以本次議事日程草案送院會處理,現有黨團依本院議事成立,對本次議事日程草案提出異議。"},{"start":5431.085,"end":5440.39,"text":"現在我們進行處理並截止收案我們先進行報告事項等提議部分請議事人員宣讀黨團之提議內容"},{"start":5441.434,"end":5469.779,"text":"本院民進黨黨團﹐針對立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由．報告事項﹐擬請增列行政院含情審議﹐114年度中央政府總預算案﹐含附屬單位預算及總計表營業及非營業部分﹐及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案案﹐其餘照一事成草案所列報告事項﹐質詢事項﹐對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢﹐是否有當進行公決。"},{"start":5471.099,"end":5477.742,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團﹐針對第11屆第2會期第5次會議﹐議程報告事項﹐諮詢事項﹐對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢﹐提應僅限列原編擬議程草案及增列報告事項﹐"},{"start":5487.325,"end":5513.59,"text":"﹚下表所列15案﹚如下列表﹚是否有道進行公決。本任中國國民黨立法院黨團﹚針對第11屆第2會期第5次會議﹚一、事由﹚報告事項﹚及質詢事項﹚對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢﹚僅限列原編理一傳草案﹚及三列報告事項﹚如下表共15案﹚是否有道進行公決。宣讀完畢"},{"start":5516.221,"end":5527.207,"text":"區議院會﹚對民進黨黨團提議通過﹚有無異議?偵獵總預算有無異議?沒有異議?偵獵總預算有無異議?有異議?"},{"start":5544.837,"end":5550.745,"text":"有異議我們就進行表決。 我們現在按鈴7分鐘並分發表決卡。"},{"start":6002.864,"end":6028.18,"text":"好謝謝謝謝各位委員敬請回座請問都有沒有拿到表決卡沒有簽到的請趕快簽到報言會跟議會報告一個好消息今天是兩位立法委員的生日我們洪森漢委員跟黃珊珊委員今天過生日我們幫她掌聲呼和生日快樂好"},{"start":6031.365,"end":6038.13,"text":"現在針對民進黨黨團提議現有民進黨黨團臺灣民眾黨黨團要求記名表決我們記名表決時間一分鐘我們現在開始"},{"start":6131.61,"end":6132.011,"text":"主席"},{"start":6484.883,"end":6486.886,"text":"謝謝!各位現在請回座好嗎?謝謝!"},{"start":6506.715,"end":6515.707,"text":"各位委員同仁麻煩請就座,我們宣讀表決結果好嗎?麻煩各黨團幹部約束一下,各黨團成員請就座"},{"start":6516.96,"end":6524.484,"text":"非常感謝各位委員謝謝現在宣讀表決結果出席委員107位贊成49位反對58位民進黨黨團提議不通過現有民進黨團提議重複表決我們現在進行重複表決對民進黨黨團提議贊成請按贊成反對請按反對時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6613.991,"end":6624.898,"text":"報言會在報告重複表決結果出席107位贊成49位反對58位民黨黨團提議不通過報言會現在我們進行處理臺灣民眾黨黨團僅限列之提議因國民黨團之提議與臺灣民眾黨黨團提議相同我們就一併處理請問院會對臺灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團提議通過有無異議"},{"start":6644.457,"end":6657.12,"text":"沒有異議我們本提議照案通過。 報告委員會本次會議事日程包括事項、質詢事項﹖對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 照台灣民眾黨團、國民黨黨團提議通過。 報告委員會我們現在繼續處理討論事項部分。 現在處理台灣民眾黨團增列討論事項提供議案。 請議事人員宣讀提議內容。"},{"start":6669.417,"end":6689.005,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第5次會議．事由．草案提議增列討論事項二案如下列表,列為討論事項第一及第二案,並於對行政院院長施政報告繼續執行前進行處理,是否有當進行公決?請問院會對臺灣民眾黨黨團這提議有無異議?沒有異議。我們本提議照案通過。"},{"start":6697.762,"end":6724.173,"text":"委員會現在處理國民黨團陣列討論事項提供一案。請議事人員宣讀提議內容。本院中國國民黨黨團陣列第11屆第2會期第5次會議一事成草案,提議陣列討論事項三案如下列表,順序授權議事處排列,並於對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢前進行處理,是否有當進行公決,宣讀完畢。委員會對國民黨團提有無異議,"},{"start":6727.847,"end":6750.352,"text":"沒有異議,我們本提議照案通過。本次會議議事日程討論事項,照臺灣民眾黨團、國民黨黨團提議通過順序,我們授權依序排列。本次會議議事日程確定。 辦議會現在進行報告事項,請民事長宣讀第二會期第4次會議議事錄。宣讀立完。"},{"start":6754.031,"end":6765.62,"text":"宣讀立法院第11屆第2會期第4次會議．事由．時間綜合名為113年10月11日上午9時至9時14分、10時至11時45分、下午2時30分至5時39分．10月15日上午9時至11時50分、下午2時30分至4時25分．地點本院議場出席委員、陳委員招職等112人、請假委員、陳委員學生"},{"start":6781.638,"end":6793.967,"text":"列席官員、行政院院長卓榮泰等15人、主席院長韓國瑜、副院長江啟臣。 報告事項,第一案宣讀本院第11屆第2會期第3次會議事錄,決定確定第二次162至190案。"},{"start":6803.072,"end":6827.801,"text":"均決定交互相關委員會審查處理或交互相關委員會。 第161案決定退回程序委員會重新提出。 第191案決定改交內政委員會審查。 第192、193案為財政委員會所提示報告案執行事項夾。 行政院答覆部分一件,以委員執行部分三件,對行政院長施政報告繼續質詢。 決定下次會議進行交通組織質詢。"},{"start":6832.832,"end":6861.861,"text":"討論事項．案決議．定期處理．宣讀完畢。 報議會針對第二會期第4次會議．事錄並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處,我們做以下之決定。 第二會期第4次會議．事錄確定。 報議會現在處理針列部分,請宣讀第一案。 第一案本院委員徐曉新等17人理據學生輔導法部分條文修正常請審議案。 依視處理件,您請回交教育及文化委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6862.66,"end":6881.25,"text":"貿易會針對第一案現有國民黨團提議淨附二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會有異議有異議沒有異議我們通過我們現在請本案淨附二讀與相關提案併案協商現在我們進入第二案"},{"start":6882.15,"end":6891.463,"text":"第2案,本院委員徐曉新的17年離聚,消防法部分條維修正常,請審議案。 議事處意見,理情委員會將內政委員會審查,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6894.83,"end":6914.17,"text":"第三案,本院委員高清素梅等17人累據原住民族基本法第18條條維修慎草案請審議案,依稀處理件,立請委員會將內政委員會審查,宣傳必。報告委員會針對針對報告事項第三案,現有民進黨黨團體退回程序委員會重新提出,請委員會有異議。"},{"start":6917.438,"end":6929.003,"text":"有異．反對本案進行表決現在針對民進黨黨團提針對事項第三案退回程序委員會我們進行表決表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7026.563,"end":7032.692,"text":"謝謝各位委員 現在宣讀一下表決結果"},{"start":7036.658,"end":7044.063,"text":"出席委員106位、贊成49位、反對57位、抱怨會贊成者少數。抱怨會現在由民進黨黨團提議重複表決。我們現在進行重複表決時間一分鐘。現在開始。"},{"start":7139.76,"end":7139.921,"text":"報告表決結果"},{"start":7172.514,"end":7199.325,"text":"報言會報告重複表決結果麻煩院會麻煩院會請肅靜好嗎?謝謝麻煩院會請保持肅靜重複表決結果出席106位贊成49位反對57位贊成則少數不通過本案遭遇事處說明準一屆通過我們現在下一案第4案"},{"start":7199.707,"end":7227.482,"text":"第4案（本院委員（黃孟凱的21人理據道路交通管理處罰條例第12條條文修正草案請審議案（依次處理件依請委員會交交通委員會審查宣讀完畢。 宣讀完畢第5案（本院委員（王振旭的24人理據醫療法增令第71條之一條文草案請審議案（依次處理件依請委員會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣讀完畢。 全員會有異無異通過下案"},{"start":7227.93,"end":7255.863,"text":"第6案本院委員王振旭等24人理據取民健康保險法第43條條文修正常情緒一案,依次促進理情和社會福利及衛生環境維護審查,宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案第7案本院委員陳瑩等17人理據國家中醫藥研究院設置條例草案情緒一案,依次促進理情和社會福利及衛生環境維護審查,宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案第8案"},{"start":7257.233,"end":7285.572,"text":"本院委員吳麗華、德學仁理據、國家語言研究發展新設施條例草案侵水疑案。 依釋處意見你請院會交付司法及法治、教育及文化、聯委會審查。 宣讀完畢無以通過下一案!沒有!你去看!你去看我的公案!你故意的!本院委員吳麗華、德學仁理據、國家語言研究發展新設施條例草案侵水疑案。依釋處意見你請院會交付司法及法治、教育及文化、聯委會審查。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7287.799,"end":7290.38,"text":"無異通過下議案。無異通過下議案。無異通過下議案。"},{"start":7313.991,"end":7314.492,"text":"無異通過下議案"},{"start":7328.171,"end":7355.467,"text":"第13案 本月委員黃捷等18日臨據《性別平等工作法》第15條條維修慎草案請審議案。 議事處意見,例行會交由社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。無異通過下一案 第14案 本月台灣民眾黨黨團臨據《氣候變遷因應法》第二條及第五條條維修慎草案請審議案。 議事處意見,例行會交由社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通教育及文化立委委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7357.288,"end":7368.994,"text":"第15案 本院臺灣民眾黨的團理局﹐證券交易稅條例部分條文修正草案請稅一案﹐一事處一件,臨時委員會交財政委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢。報告院會﹐我們本次會議報告事項記載於議事錄順序,授權議事處調整﹐現在我們繼續處理原列報告事項﹐請宣讀第二案。"},{"start":7381.055,"end":7386.964,"text":"第1、2案本院委員王宏威等23人聯聚明方法第2條集體21條條維修證草案請審議案。 議事處意見明請回交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7392.099,"end":7416.873,"text":"無異通過下議案。 第三案,本院委員王宏偉等16人鄰居所得稅法第14條至8條維修證草案請審議案,依釋出意見您請回交財政委員會審查,宣讀外閉。 無異通過下議案。 第四案,本院委員王宏偉等17人鄰居勞工保險條例第74條至2條維修證草案請審議案,依釋出意見您請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣讀外閉。 無異通過下議案。"},{"start":7417.313,"end":7428.336,"text":"第5案 本院委員王宏威的25人聯聚 全民健康保險法第10條及第12條條文修憲草案請選一案 議事處意見 引請會長 社會福利 優先環境委員會審查 宣布完畢"},{"start":7429.011,"end":7455.596,"text":"無異通過下議案。 第6案本院院翁曉琳等17屆連續《中華民國刑法》第185條至3條文修憲草案請水一案。 一系處意見,臨時會交司法及法定委員會審查。 宣討完畢。 無異通過下議案。 第7案本院院翁曉琳等16屆連續《考試院組織法》第7條、第10條及第11條條文修憲草案請水一案。 一系處意見,臨時會交司法及法定委員會審查。 宣討完畢。 無異通過下議案。"},{"start":7456.016,"end":7473.165,"text":"第八案 本月由翁曉琳等17人聯聚老人福利法第25條條維修現場勤稅案,依次促進,另請會長、社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣傳完畢報告事項第八項,現有國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案,並按協商。 請問會議有異議?"},{"start":7473.165,"end":7473.245,"text":"異議通過,下一案"},{"start":7476.226,"end":7500.692,"text":"﹗第9案本院委員羅志強的23人領據公職人員選舉報名法增定第24條之一條文草案情水疑案,依次促見理事會將內政委員會審查,宣布完畢。﹗第10案本院委員羅志強的29人領據《中華民國刑法》增定第37章章明及第364條條文草案情水疑案,依次促見理事會將司法及法治委員會審查,宣布完畢。﹗"},{"start":7502.392,"end":7508.578,"text":"第11案,委員委員王玉敏等17年連續《國土計畫法》第45條條維修現場請選一案,依次促進議情會教內政委會審查。 宣傳完畢。"},{"start":7514.312,"end":7536.833,"text":"第12案本院委員李昆城的20人領據地方資助法第78條條文修憲草案情水移案,依次促進,依次會交內政司法及法制聯務委員會審查,宣讀完畢。 無異通過下一案第13案本院委員李昆城的20人領據動物保護法部分條文修憲草案情水移案,依次促進,依次會交經濟委員會審查,宣讀完畢。 無異通過下一案"},{"start":7537.133,"end":7560.13,"text":"第14案 本月委員李昆城的23人離聚,保險房增訂第174條主要及第174條之三條文草原侵稅案,一事出現,理情會交財政委員會審查,宣傳完畢。 無異通過下一案第15案 本月委員李昆城的23人離聚,娛樂稅房部分條文修正草原侵稅案,一事出現,理情會交財政委員會審查,宣傳完畢。 無異通過下一案"},{"start":7560.43,"end":7580.03,"text":"第16案,委員委員李昏神的22人邻居,預算法第46條條維修證草案競選一案,依次促進,立行會將財政委員會審查,宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案第17案,委員委員李昏神的22人邻居,證券交易稅條例第二條之二條維修證草案競選一案,依次促進,立行會將財政委員會審查,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7581.832,"end":7584.234,"text":"御議通過下議案御議通過下議案御議通過下議案"},{"start":7608.595,"end":7628.882,"text":"第20案本院委員李渙辰等22人離聚立法院職權刑事法第16條條文修正草案情緒議案,依次促進,依情會交司法及法律委員會審查,宣布完畢。第21案本院委員陳慶輝等16人離聚反其事法草案情緒議案,依次促進,依情會交內政委員會審查,宣布完畢。"},{"start":7629.622,"end":7656.124,"text":"無異通過下議案。 第22案本院委員陳慶輝等16人理據保護所有醫系工人及其家庭成員權利,國際公約是刑罰草案侵水一案。﹐一時初一屆立行會交外交及國防、社會福利及衛生環境的兩位委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案。 第23案本院委員陳慶輝等16人理據國民營體域法第25條條務修正草案侵水一案。﹐一時初一屆立行會交外交及文化委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7656.755,"end":7659.577,"text":"無疑通過下一案。 無疑通過下一案。 無疑通過下一案。"},{"start":7681.676,"end":7702.345,"text":"第26案本院委員李楚英等20人理據臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第90條條文修正草案請審議案。 一時出現立行會交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 二十七案本院委員陳玉珍等17人理據領導基本法草案請審議案。 一時出現立行會交經濟內政財政三委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7705.473,"end":7725.983,"text":"報告事項第27案 現由民進黨黨團提議退回程序委員會 重新提出 請問院會有異議有異議我們進行表決 贊成民進黨黨團提議退回程序委員會 請按贊成 反對 請按反對 時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":7853.527,"end":7870.661,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝現在向院會報告表決結果我們出席106位贊成48位反對57位贊成者少數報告院會現有民進黨黨團體重複表決我們現在進行重複表決記名表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7948.054,"end":7948.414,"text":"現在下一案"},{"start":7971.573,"end":7978.597,"text":"第二十八案本院委員陳慧琳等21個鄰居﹐文化資產保存法在第11條至1條文章請審議案。 議事處理屆臨時會教教育及娃娃園會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7986.124,"end":8007.317,"text":"第二十九二本院委員陳冠霖的二十一年年居﹐文化藝術講座及促進條例第15條條文修正常請審議案。 依次促進立行會教教育界文化財政聯盟會審查。 宣讀完畢第二十二本院委員鍾嘉斌的二十一年年居﹐娛樂稅法部分條文修正常請審議案。 依次促進立行會教財政聯盟會審查。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":8009.798,"end":8030.67,"text":"第31案本月委員徐富奎等18日離聚國家公園法部分條維修政策案請審議案,依次促進,依次委員會交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢無異通過下議案第32案本月委員徐富奎等17日離聚消防法部分條維修政策案請審議案,依次促進,依次委員會交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":8031.01,"end":8054.262,"text":"﹐第33案﹐本院委員徐富奎等17人聯聚﹐學校衛生法第21條條維修憲草原精髓案﹐一時初見李景輝教育及文化委員會審查﹐宣告完畢﹐無意通過下議案﹐第34案﹐本院委員徐富奎等17人聯聚﹐特殊教育法第30條條維修憲草原精髓案﹐一時初見李景輝教育及文化委員會審查﹐宣告完畢﹐無意通過下議案"},{"start":8054.542,"end":8068.056,"text":"第三十五案 本院委員徐富回等17年年居國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例第10條及第23條條文修正草原清水一案,依次促進理情會交交通司法及法制聯務委員會審查。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":8069.827,"end":8093.415,"text":"第36案本院委員徐志傑等23人鄰居立法院公費助理任用法草案請水一案。 依次促見議員會交司法及法證委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案第37案本院委員邱志偉等16人鄰居國家安全法第三條條文修正草案請水一案。 依次促見議員會交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案"},{"start":8093.775,"end":8116.483,"text":"﹐第38案﹐本院委員邱志偉等16人聯聚﹐反滲透法第8條條文修正策案請審議案﹐依次促進依請回交內政司法及法治聯委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢﹐無異通過下議案﹐第39案﹐本院委員邱志偉等16人聯聚﹐並議法第17條條文修正策案請審議案﹐依次促進依請回交外交及國防委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢﹐無異通過下議案"},{"start":8116.903,"end":8123.145,"text":"第41案 國民體育法第38條及第43條條務修正草案請審議案。 議事處議院立行會教教育及文化委員會審查。 宣告完畢"},{"start":8140.569,"end":8165.158,"text":"第42案本院委員邱志文等20人已廢止交通部臺灣區國道高速公路局組織條例請審議案。﹐一時初見您請回交司法及法制交通領域委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案第43案本院委員邱志文等16人連聚就業保險法部分條文修正草案請審議案。﹐一時初見您請回交社會福利機構上環境委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案"},{"start":8165.498,"end":8190.052,"text":"第44案 本院委員陳秀寶等21人離聚,性別平等工作法第15條條文修正草原情緒一案,一事促進,理情匯交,社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣布完畢。 無異通過下議案第45案 本院委員陳秀寶等21人離聚,勞工保險條例部分條文修正草原情緒一案,一事促進,理情匯交,社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣布完畢。 無異通過下議案"},{"start":8190.532,"end":8211.81,"text":"第46案本院委員陳秀寶的21宅連聚今年基本法草案請審議案。 議事處意見您請回交交予及文化委員會審查。 宣告完畢無異通過下議案第47案本院委員陳秀寶的21宅連聚教育事法部份談文修正常案請審議案。 議事處意見您請回交交予及文化委員會審查。 宣告完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":8212.21,"end":8234.032,"text":"第48案本院委員陳秀寶等21人領據《中華民國新法》第77條條文修正常請選一案。 依次促進立行會將司法及法律委員會審查。 宣告完畢。第49案本院委員羅廷偉等17人領據《國土計畫法》第45條條文修正常請選一案。 依次促進立行會將內政委員會審查。 宣告完畢。 依次促進立行會將內政委員會審查。 宣告完畢。"},{"start":8235.353,"end":8257.019,"text":"第52 本院委員羅廷偉等17人凝聚。 教育經費編列與管理法第3條條文修正常請水恩。 議事處理屆年齡會教育及文化委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。第51 本院委員羅廷偉等16人凝聚。 學校衛生法第6條條文修正常請水恩。 議事處理屆年齡會教育及文化委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8258.519,"end":8283.559,"text":"第52案本院委員羅廷偉等16屆領據《毒品危害方式條例》第11條至1條無修憲草案請審議案。 一事出現您請獲交司法及法治委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案。 第53案本院委員羅廷偉等17屆領據《職業災害勞工保護法》第14條條無修憲草案請審議案。 一事出現您請獲交社會福利及優先環境委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案。"},{"start":8283.979,"end":8308.296,"text":"第54案 本院委員羅廷偉等16年年居 人體器官移植條例第一條之一條文修憲草案請審議案。 依次促進議請會將社會福利及衛生環境文化審查。 宣言完畢無異通過下議案第55案 本院委員羅廷偉等19年年居 雅庭技術司法第三條條文修憲草案請審議案。 依次促進議請會將社會福利及衛生環境文化審查。 宣言完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":8308.596,"end":8329.34,"text":"第56案 本院委員羅廷偉等16人聯聚緊急醫療救護法第二條條維修政策維新水域案 議事初見 移情匯交 社會福利 優勝環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢第57案 本院委員羅廷偉等16人聯聚優生保健法第二條條維修政策維新水域案 議事初見 移情匯交 社會福利 優勝環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":8332.341,"end":8356.645,"text":"第五十方案本院委員羅廷偉等16人聆聚安寧緩和醫療條例第2條條文修正草原情緒疑案,依次促進理情委會交由社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣告完畢。 第五十九案本院委員徐宇珍等17人聆聚當中交通管理處罰條例第12條及第12條之一條文修正草原情緒疑案,依次促進理情委會交交交通委員會審查,宣告完畢。"},{"start":8357.205,"end":8358.906,"text":"無異通過下議案。 無異通過下議案。無異通過下議案。"},{"start":8382.364,"end":8405.658,"text":"第62案 北約委員審柏羊等19人凝聚,反制度法增定第6條之一條文草案請審議案。 依次促進,依行會將內政司法及法制兩委員會審查。 宣告完畢。 無異通過下議案第63案 北約委員審柏羊等18人凝聚,中華民國刑犯部份條文促進草案請審議案。 依次促進,依行會將司法及法制兩委員會審查。 宣告完畢。 無異通過下議案"},{"start":8406.318,"end":8429.604,"text":"第64案 本院委員參與於等16人聯聚﹐正確交易稅條例第2條之二及第12條條文修正草案請審議案。﹐一時初見你請回交財政委員會審查。﹐宣言完畢。﹐無異通過下議案。﹐第65案 本院委員參與於等18人聯聚﹐不應移植保存條例草案請審議案。﹐一時初見你請回交教育及文化委員會審查。﹐宣言完畢。﹐無異通過下議案"},{"start":8429.904,"end":8444.836,"text":"第66案 本院委員參與於等23個領據學生輔導法部份條文修正常勤審議案,依次促進,引起會教教育級王晃委員會審查。 宣言完畢報告院會報告事項第66案,現有民進黨黨團提議計負二讀與相關提案並案協商,請問院會有無異議?"},{"start":8450.714,"end":8453.258,"text":"無異議通過下一案。 無異議通過下一案。"},{"start":8465.236,"end":8481.573,"text":"第68案本院委員承認等16人聆聚原住民族戒留地方草案請選一案。 議事處意見您請回交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢無異通過下一案第69案本院委員承認等18人聆聚離島簽證條例第13條條文修正草案請選一案。 議事處意見您請回交經濟委員會審查。 宣讀完畢無異通過下一案"},{"start":8487.139,"end":8510.26,"text":"第七十一案 本院委員陳穎等17人理據《國民抵禦法》第38條條無修任草案請水一案。 一事促進,你請回交教育局王化緣會審查。 宣言完畢。 五議通過下議案第七十一案 本院委員陳穎等17人理據《社會福利基本法》第4條條無修任草案請水一案。 一事促進,你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣言完畢。 五議通過下議案"},{"start":8510.62,"end":8527.151,"text":"第72案本院委員陳怡等18日臨時老人福利法第二條條無修正草案請選一案。一時初見臨時會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 訓斷完畢。 無異通過下議案第73案本院委員林思明等19日臨時對於發准法草案請選一案。 一時初見臨時會交內政委員會審查。 訓斷完畢。 無異通過下議案"},{"start":8531.914,"end":8556.192,"text":"第74案本院委員零四名的23人凝聚,道路交通管理處罰條例增提第92條之二條文草案情實一案,依次處理解釋請回交交通委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。第75案本院委員岚若龍短時間凝聚,威權統治實行互相不法行為,被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案情實一案,依次處理解釋請回交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8557.012,"end":8558.553,"text":"衛通過下議案衛通過下議案衛通過下議案"},{"start":8581.485,"end":8606.673,"text":"﹗第78案﹗本院委員賴岳龍的17年年居保險法則列第174條之二及第174條之三條文草案及水銀案,依次促進離境匯交財政委員會審查,宣言完畢。 無異通過下一案﹗第79案﹗本院委員賴岳龍的16年年居國營港務股份有限公司順勢條例部分條文修正草案及水銀案,依次促進離境匯交交通司法啟發制聯務委員會審查,宣言完畢。"},{"start":8607.273,"end":8608.794,"text":"無異通過下議案無異通過下議案無異通過下議案"},{"start":8631.809,"end":8655.167,"text":"第82案本院委員吳佩儀等22人凝聚,都市更新條例第65條條文修正草原侵水案,一時初見,您請回交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。第83案本院委員吳佩儀等24人凝聚,未全同這時期國家不法行為,被案者全力回復條例部分條文修正草原侵水案,一時初見,您請回交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8656.488,"end":8675.805,"text":"﹐第84案﹐本月委員吳佩儀等24人領據《輿論稅法》部分條文修正草案清水案﹐依次促進離境匯交財政委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢。﹐第85案﹐本月委員吳佩儀等24人領據《青年基本法》草案清水案﹐依次促進離境匯交交易及文化委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8677.528,"end":8683.641,"text":"第86案本院委員吳佩儀等24人聯聚為議議址保存條例草案請審議案。 議事初見禮慶會將將會計劃畫圓會審查宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8687.694,"end":8690.896,"text":"五、一通過下一案。 五、一通過下一案。五、一通過下一案。"},{"start":8710.911,"end":8728.907,"text":"第89案．法院行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案案．次初見臨時會交司法企法支援會審查。 宣讀完畢第90案．法院行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案案．次初見臨時會交司法企法支援會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":8730.268,"end":8742.159,"text":"第91案．經濟部函宋設立雅萬埃西研發中心進度113年7月專案報告﹐一時初見臨時會交經濟委員會處理﹐宣讀完畢。 無疑通過下一案﹐第92案．大陸委員會函宋臺灣與澳門避免航空企業雙重課稅協議113年第二屆即雙門延傳上報告﹐一時初見臨時會交內政委員會處理﹐宣讀完畢。 無疑通過下一案﹐"},{"start":8755.652,"end":8780.442,"text":"﹗第93內政部喊為修正陽明山國家公園區域內競爭事章第5點及第11點規定﹗一時初見你請回交內政委員會﹗ 宣讀完畢。﹗第94案﹗內政部喊為綠建築標章規費收費標準明稱修正為﹗綠建築標章及建築南校標識規費收費標準並修正第二大條文﹗一時初見你請回交內政委員會﹗宣讀完畢。﹗"},{"start":8782.023,"end":8782.684,"text":"無異通過下議案"},{"start":8803.607,"end":8804.248,"text":"﹗第96案﹗第97案﹗無異通過下議案﹗"},{"start":8829.167,"end":8829.828,"text":"無異議通過下一案無異議通過下一案"},{"start":8850.842,"end":8869.929,"text":"第102,農業部函送公告,自中華民國113年6月25日起至7月1日至金門地區除公告事項二之加工產品為注針與其土地內臟、純線及加工產品,禁止出往臺灣本土及其他地域等。 一致出現,你請回交經濟委員會。 宣告完畢第101案,農業部函送聯誼部"},{"start":8873.911,"end":8874.972,"text":"無異通過下議案無異通過下議案無異通過下議案"},{"start":8903.266,"end":8914.272,"text":"第104案 農業牧海維修正休閒農業輔導管理辦法部分條文一致促進理情會交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢 第105案 農業牧海維修正農業牧補助及獎勵農業保險 保險人辦法第4條第5條及第6條條文一致促進理情會交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":8924.457,"end":8946.114,"text":"第106案 農業部橫送農業部農田水利署 石門管理處農田水利事業區域內灌溉制度﹐一致促進理事會交經濟委員會﹐宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案第107案 農業部橫送農業部農田水利署 南東管理處農田水利事業區域內灌溉制度﹐一致促進理事會交經濟委員會﹐宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案"},{"start":8946.514,"end":8968.89,"text":"第108案 農業部橫送農業部農田水利署 雲林管理處 農田水利事業區域內灌溉制度 依次促進疫情維繳經濟委員會 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案第109案 農業部海域促進公告澳大利亞首都特區 自高病原性家庭流行性感冒肺炎去刪除 依次促進疫情維繳經濟委員會 宣讀完畢。 無異通過下議案"},{"start":8969.23,"end":8970.03,"text":"無異通過下議案"},{"start":8988.255,"end":9013.033,"text":"第11一案 財政部行為機動調整牛肉、烘焙藥、奶粉、奶油、汙水奶油及小麥等二重省貨品關稅稅率實施期限自113年7月1日起至同年9月30日至。 一期初見禮群會教財政委員會。 宣讀完畢。第11二案 財政部行為修正執行業務所的潮流辦法部分調文。 一期初見禮群會教財政委員會。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9013.533,"end":9016.275,"text":"無異通過下議案無異通過下議案無異通過下議案"},{"start":9037.85,"end":9040.511,"text":"無異通過下議案無異通過下議案無異通過下議案"},{"start":9062.637,"end":9087.84,"text":"第11期案（法務部行為本月修正電子簽章法通過附帶權益﹐檢速司法程序使用電子簽章之可行性評估報告﹐依稀處理監理請回交交通委員會﹐宣讀外閉。 無異通過下議案。 第11頒案（審計部來回修正審計部桃園市審計處辦事細則第9條及第11條條文﹐依稀處理監理請回交司法及法制財政兩委員會﹐宣讀外閉。 無異通過下議案。"},{"start":9088.2,"end":9103.681,"text":"第1192 衛生部領文函送應完成產品登錄之化妝品種類及廢紙應完成產品登錄之化妝品種類及施行日期並自113年7月1日生效。依次處理件禮請會交社會福利協會上環境委員會。 宣布完畢"},{"start":9105.083,"end":9123.02,"text":"第1202 衛生福利部函送應建立產品資訊檔案之化妝品種類及實施日期﹐及廢止應建立產品資訊檔案之化妝品種類及實行日期﹐並自113年7月1日生效。 依次處理件請回交社會福利局向環境委員會。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9124.682,"end":9141.217,"text":"第1、2、1、2衛生福利部海外修正、全民健康保險、醫療服務及副項目及支付標準部分宅療項目﹐並自113年7月1日申請。 衛生福利部海外修正、全民健康保險、醫療服務及副項目及支付標準部分宅療項目﹐並自113年7月1日申請。 衛生福利部海外修正、全民健康保險、醫療服務及副項目﹐並自113年7月1日申請。 衛生福利部海外修正、全民健康保險、醫療服務及副項目﹐並自113年7月1日申請"},{"start":9150.407,"end":9158.03,"text":"第一、二、二案經濟部還從112年度中小企業融資協助執行成果報告書一期處議會將經濟委員會宣讀完畢。無異通過報議會第123案至232案我們依序宣讀其中第121、124、177案國民黨黨團提議改交審查第123、124、130至133、145至147"},{"start":9179.6,"end":9207.316,"text":"一五二至一五六、一六一至一六四、一六六、一六八、一七三、一七四、一八一至一八三、一八七、一九零、二一一至二一四、二一七、二一八、二二四、二二五、二二八、二二九及﹐第231案,臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查。 宣讀之後﹐以上提案均改交相關委員會審查,其餘議案均照"},{"start":9208.537,"end":9236.678,"text":"議事處意見通過請問院會有異議沒有異議我們宣讀宣讀之後通過請宣讀第123案行政院第124案之第12辦內眷部第129案海洋委員會第130案大陸委員會第131案不當黨產處理委員會第132案外交部第133案僑務委員會第134案密集第135案國防部第136案國軍退出官兵輔導委員會"},{"start":9237.699,"end":9240.884,"text":"第137案 經濟部第11案 農業部第143案 公民交友委員會第144案 國家發展委員會第145案 財政部第150案 密 中央銀行"},{"start":9254.122,"end":9270.161,"text":"第153案 及第154案 金融建築管理委員會 第155案 行政院主席總署 第156案 文化部 第157案 國家科學及基礎委員會 第158案 及第160案 交通部 第161案 及第162案 國家通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":9271.162,"end":9297.516,"text":"一、三、處委發展部一、四、行政院公共工程委員會一、五、司法院一、六、防務部一、七、衛生福利部一、八、最低一期零案審計部一、七、經濟部一、二、行政院一、七、最低一期零案內宣部一、八、議案最低一期零案原住民組委員會一、八、自然國防部一、八、五案最低一期零案經濟部一、八、辦案最低一期零案農業部一、九、財政部"},{"start":9299.697,"end":9313.729,"text":"第192案及第193案中央研究院 第194案及第203案教育部 第204案及第207案文化部 第20方案及第202案交通部 第213案國家通訊傳播委員會 第214案及第216案數位發選部"},{"start":9315.911,"end":9343.735,"text":"﹐第207案﹐監察院﹐第208案﹐防務部﹐第219案﹐至第209案﹐衛生福利部﹐第240案﹐及第231案﹐勞動部﹐第232案﹐環境部﹐含為各年度相關預算﹐中央政府以後強化經濟與社會韌性﹐及全民共享經濟成果特別預算權益﹐112年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算﹐113年度中央政府總預算等預算權益﹐分別檢送相關報告。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9345.182,"end":9358.643,"text":"法院會第233案以下請一併宣讀。宣讀之後,除第244案同意展延審查期限外,其餘個案均准予被查。請宣讀。"},{"start":9359.383,"end":9381.182,"text":"第二、三、四案為本院司法及法政委會函﹖為願會教務審查、財政法人、臺灣更生保護會等111年度決算書案等案﹖已於決算法第28條鎖定審議期限。第二、三、四案至第二、四、三案為本院財政司法及法制、教育檢控化內政、外交警務方、經濟、交通、社會福利、優先環境委會函﹖為願會教務審查、審計部函為111年度"},{"start":9383.724,"end":9409.972,"text":"一百十一年度中央政府走運算局一等案﹐均已於年度運算執行期間。 第二、四次案為本院社會福利及衛生環境委會函﹐為院會交付審查相關行政命令﹐已於立法院職權行使法第61條所定審查期限。 質詢事項講﹐行政院答覆部分﹐行政院函送本院領委員書分等﹐所聽質詢之書面答覆共六件﹐以本院委員質詢部分﹐"},{"start":9410.712,"end":9438.949,"text":"本院議委員之等向行政院提出集群共三件。 宣布完畢。報告事項均已處理完畢。 我們現在進行討論事項第一案。本院臺灣民眾黨黨團為立三度爾颱風災後重建工作。 請行政院督促農業部等主管機關積極支援救災所需經費。 並訂定全國一致之補助標準。 請院會決議議案。"},{"start":9441.011,"end":9448.313,"text":"現在請議事人員宣讀提案內容。本院臺灣民眾腦囊團,由建雲山奴而颱風影響臺灣盛舉。據中央災害影片中心統計,截至113年11月7日1550,此次颱風共造成全國40億私中719傷,總災情包括露宿倒塌。"},{"start":9461.756,"end":9476.949,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":9477.99,"end":9502.346,"text":"因雨量大,風勢強勁,加上漲潮,造成新北市金山區萬里區40年來最嚴重的淹水,基隆市邊坡土石滑落,高雄市及屏東縣大範圍停電與社會設備損壞,花蓮縣台東縣交通中斷,及民眾不慎從高處墜落,駕車遭落時擊中,落海等災情,受山毒和颱風影響,全國農業總損失約3億8716萬元。"},{"start":9506.949,"end":9528.783,"text":"其中屏東縣損失2億3,863萬元,高雄市損失8,896萬元,將為嚴重農作物受損以香蕉驟嚴重,損失6,084萬元,次為番石榴、棗木瓜及蓮霧等,為利災民進行重慶工作,早日恢復正常生活,原提案進行本院作者如下決議。"},{"start":9529.924,"end":9550.723,"text":"請行政院督促農業部、經濟部、財政部、內政部等主管機關﹐積極支援各地方政府舊災所需經費﹐並比重堪比颱風之災後舊協助措施﹐秉持從困從速、從簡原則﹐為全體受災戶定定全國一致之補助標準﹐是否有當請供決案。 宣討完畢"},{"start":9553.925,"end":9579.259,"text":"依照立法院之間新政法第8條第3項之規定﹐本案經提案人說明提案子去﹐大體討論後﹐即一決交付審查或禁付二讀﹐或不予審議。 報告委員會﹐本提案﹐提案的黨團並沒有推派委員說明﹐我們就不做說明﹐現在進行大體討論﹐但是本案並沒有委員登記發言﹐我們就不發言。"},{"start":9580.579,"end":9597.133,"text":"辦委會,現有臺灣民眾黨黨團提議禁覆二讀,請問院會有異議?沒有異議,本案就禁覆二讀。依據立法院職權行事法第74條之一規定,交付黨團協商,我們現在作以下決議。交付黨團協商,由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商。"},{"start":9602.862,"end":9616.31,"text":"辦院會現在進入討論事項第二案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團建請加開院會,邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長就賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策進行專案"},{"start":9617.608,"end":9624.693,"text":"被質詢請院會決議以案﹚本案﹚經第二會期第一次會議決議交付黨團協商﹚並由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商﹚報院會﹚本案現已完成協商﹚請宣讀協商結論。"},{"start":9634.969,"end":9653.367,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間113年10月17日星期四上午10時,地點群選樓802會議室。 決定事項,依各黨團同意10月29日星期二,邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席,提出賴清德政府人員配比及電價偵測專案報告並被質詢。"},{"start":9655.809,"end":9683.912,"text":"質詢人數由國民黨黨團推敗9人、民進黨黨團推敗9人、臺灣民眾黨黨團推敗2人進行。 每位委員尋答時間15分鐘。 質詢順序屹立授權1、4處辦理。 名單請於10月28日星期一中午10、20前送交1、4處會診。 預時視同放棄。 主持人韓國瑜將啟程。 協商代表傅坤崎、林思明、王鴻威、柯建民、吳思堯、蔡毅宇、王國昌、吳春成、麥玉珍。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9685.542,"end":9686.691,"text":"請問院會對以上協商結論有異議?"},{"start":9688.444,"end":9709.568,"text":"沒有異議本案進行協商結論來進行處理我們現在做以下決議10月29日星期二邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並被質詢質詢人數由國民黨團推派9位民進黨黨團推派9位台灣民眾黨黨團推派2位每位委員詢答時間15分鐘質詢順序依例授權議事處處理"},{"start":9718.697,"end":9738.915,"text":"本名單請於10月28日星期一中午12點前宋嬌藝術處會診。 欲時適同放棄。現在我們進入討論事項第三案本院民進黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第2次會議包括事項第三案翁曉琳委員等凝聚憲法訴訟法第30條及"},{"start":9740.456,"end":9757.33,"text":"第43條條文修正草案．第4案翁曉琳委員等凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第16條條文修正草案．院會所作決定提出復議請公決案本案．今第二會期第三次會議"},{"start":9758.431,"end":9781.363,"text":"決定令定期處理,現在我們進行處理。本案沒有委員登記發言,我們就不發言。 報議會現在針對民進黨黨團所提議的副議案進行表決,贊成民進黨黨團所提的副議案,請案贊成,反對請案表決,請案反對,我們記名表決時間1分鐘,現在開始。"},{"start":9893.285,"end":9915.949,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝,謝謝,好,謝謝各位委員,謝謝。報告委員會,楊耀委員發表聲明,對剛才表決與民進黨黨團意見一致,我們列入公報記錄。報告委員會現在宣布表決結果,出席委員106位,贊成50位,反對56位,贊成者少數。報告委員會現有民進黨黨團提議重複表決,我們現在進行重複表決,時間一分鐘,現在開始。"},{"start":9996.287,"end":10010.78,"text":"現在報告重複表決結果出席105位贊成50位反對55位贊成者少數我們決議復議案不通過本案報告事項照原作決定通過"},{"start":10012.282,"end":10040.261,"text":"現在我們進入討論事項第4案本院民進黨黨團針對第11屆第二會期第三次會議包括事項第9案翁小林委員等凝聚憲法訴訟案第95條條文修正草案及第63案徐欣怡委員等凝聚國家通訊委員會組織法第16條條文修正草案院會所作決定民進黨提出復議請公決案"},{"start":10042.662,"end":10043.883,"text":"時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":10180.117,"end":10184.101,"text":"謝謝謝謝報告表決結果出席104位贊成50位反對54位贊成者少數報告現在有民進黨團體重複表決我們現在進行重複表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":10273.732,"end":10298.006,"text":"報告委員會現在報告重複表決結果,出席104位,贊成50位,反對54位,贊成則少數。我們決議附議案不通過,本案報告事項照原作決定通過。報告委員會現在進入討論事項第5案,本院國民黨黨團提議針對農業部、教育部因禁訴檢討斑斑有先乃。"},{"start":10299.006,"end":10303.995,"text":"執行情形並提出改善方案。 請院會作成決議案,請議事人員宣讀提案內容。"},{"start":10306.345,"end":10330.838,"text":"本院國民黨黨團藉請院會作成以下之決議,有鑒於政府因應明年紐西蘭進口鮮奶零關稅,為減少對本土落農衝擊,農業部教育部實施斑斑有鮮奶政策,為因冷鏈配送學校冷藏儲存,以及食安疑慮問題,多數學生選擇保求入,至演變校園斑斑有保求入。"},{"start":10331.318,"end":10356.298,"text":"同時造成市面上保障乳酗貨及種匠情形﹐政府規劃不周﹐交上配套不足﹐不但造成學校教學現場之困擾﹐亦無法照顧到本土落農﹐傷害本土乳品產業﹐更影響民生物資價格之穩定﹐原此提案要求農業部教育部﹐因技術檢討斑斑有限地執行情形﹐並且提出經濟改善方案﹐"},{"start":10356.838,"end":10368.262,"text":"以確保學生飲用安全衛生式乳品,兼顧本土乳品產業之穩定發展,是否有當進行公決。 宣讀完畢。法定人數不足"},{"start":10382.266,"end":10396.5,"text":"審議。 報言會陳超明委員發表聲明,剛才表決與國民黨黨團意見一致,列入公報記錄。 報言會現在請提案黨團,國民黨黨團代表萬委員美玲說明提案子去。"},{"start":10406.706,"end":10429.333,"text":"謝謝院長,各位同仁,還有所有媒體的朋友。斑斑有鮮奶政策,四年四十四億。那說好的要在今年九月開學之後,讓我們的學童每一週都能夠喝到兩次的鮮奶。但是現在已經十月中了,我們看到斑斑有鮮奶變成斑斑有飽酒乳。"},{"start":10429.833,"end":10450.275,"text":"而斑斑有保久乳現在竟然變成了斑斑在等待。 那麼本院國民黨黨團要建請院會做成以下的決議有鑒於政府因應明年紐西蘭鮮奶零關稅 為了要減少本土落農的衝擊,農業部跟教育部"},{"start":10450.975,"end":10475.88,"text":"實施了斑斑有鮮奶政策,但是因為沒有顧及到冷鏈配送的問題,學校冷藏儲存的問題,以及相關食安疑慮的考慮,所以有很多的學生高達75%以上都選擇了飽酒乳,以至於演變成斑斑有鮮奶政策,現在是斑斑有飽酒乳政策。"},{"start":10476.4,"end":10476.42,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":10499.699,"end":10499.739,"text":"主席"},{"start":10515.527,"end":10515.847,"text":"主席"},{"start":10536.614,"end":10559.779,"text":"趕快的思考是不是應該要來發放鮮奶券。 比照現行有許多的縣市都是在寒暑假針對弱勢的學生發放營養午餐券的方式。 我們用鮮奶券讓每一個孩子可以快速的自行的到我們的超商到我們的大賣場來兌換他們所需的乳品。 我想"},{"start":10560.239,"end":10560.299,"text":"主席"},{"start":10588.776,"end":10612.156,"text":"謝謝外媒林委員的發言。報告委員會現在進行大體討論,沒有委員登記,我們就不再發言。報告委員會現有國民黨團提議禁付二讀,請問委員會有異議?沒有異議本案禁付二讀,依據立法院職權新司法74條之一規定交付黨團協商。我們作以下決議,本案交付黨團協商,並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商。"},{"start":10616.363,"end":10634.57,"text":"報告委員會現在議場二樓旁盯的是來自南投晴天協會的朋友,熱情歡迎。報告委員會現在議場二樓旁盯另外一批來自新北林口高中的同學,熱情歡迎未來國家主人翁。"},{"start":10637.75,"end":10659.041,"text":"現在我們針對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢今天進行個人質詢、交通組制質詢我們首先請郭國文委員質詢以書面提出請行政院以書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報接下來我們請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":10669.735,"end":10674.678,"text":"院長午安,我想請卓院長。麻煩請卓院長備選。卓院長。張委員好。我想要請問您,您自己有用過這個外送平台,類似Uber Eats或Fu Panda嗎?當然有,在疫情時間用的又特別多。應該不錯用吧,怎麼樣?不錯用,很方便。"},{"start":10699.264,"end":10722.134,"text":"很方便吧那最近交通部提出了一個預告修法跟Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都息息相關就是明訂機車外送平台的這個費率公式可以加收等待費還有樓層費跟夜間加成的費用本席要先請教院長您支持交通部這個預告案嗎"},{"start":10723.697,"end":10727.32,"text":"我假設是像院長這樣講的我覺得這個利益良善雖然現在還沒有明定這個價格但是根據工會的估算"},{"start":10748.598,"end":10748.618,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":10767.602,"end":10767.622,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":10788.113,"end":10788.133,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":10816.521,"end":10842.616,"text":"算是漲幅非常的多有88%的民眾表示說未來每筆這個外送運送費調漲60至85元他們會減少使用而且甚至可能考慮不再使用外送那所以呢這個部分曾經的有外送平台有外送員包括餐飲業者跟消費者您知道如果假設"},{"start":10844.357,"end":10858.709,"text":"這不是他們推動的,他們對這個狀況毫無所知,包括外送平台本身也說他們真的不曉得會發生這個事情。 那外送員認為說市場有它的平衡機制,如果漲價沒人點,"},{"start":10860.31,"end":10860.47,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10880.135,"end":10893.61,"text":"這個部分您所提出來的數字您剛剛也說了這是外送員工會所算出來的數字代表外送員工會其實都知道這件事這個部分本來他們都知道現在大家談這些都還太早"},{"start":10894.531,"end":10895.651,"text":"本席再提醒你就是這個部分"},{"start":10917.501,"end":10928.45,"text":"因為你們在之前都沒有跟他們有討論,包括16號下午你們才緊急發通知給消基會,說希望他們17號早上來開會,他們就拒絕了,因為太倉促了。"},{"start":10933.173,"end":10947.529,"text":"簡直就是為了你這個要緊急上路急就章在做的往回的一個措施那本席要提醒你的是本席要提醒你的是這個草案就跟斑斑有先辱"},{"start":10948.45,"end":10975.258,"text":"一樣的翻版缺乏溝通不夠接地氣這簡直就是在辦公室裡面想出來的政策那一開始在公告這個修正草案之前的會議根本沒有任何消費者團體的聲音所以16號發文的就是為了挽救所以提醒你提醒你一定要重視否則你這樣子等於是"},{"start":10976.967,"end":10999.336,"text":"療草的上路的話影響的非常多,影響的非常多。好,那接下來呢,卓院長,我也必須提醒您,不只是交通部如此,你說教育部跟農業部剛剛我們提出的那個案子,就是斑斑有鮮奶,變成斑斑有薄酒乳之外,薄酒乳還供應不上,結果呢,"},{"start":11000.946,"end":11016.136,"text":"問了農業部,農業部說你喝不上薄酒乳,你喝鮮乳啊,這不是何不死糯米啊,真的我覺得荒唐到了一個極點,我們其實本意是要照顧落農,結果不只沒有照顧到落農,還排擠了"},{"start":11018.097,"end":11043.933,"text":"議員長"},{"start":11044.181,"end":11060.485,"text":"我希望大家的創意都要經過非常合理深入的討論而且在討論的初期如果還沒有廣泛跟外界有溝通不宜把任何的意見快速的向外界來宣布或是透露出來這樣會造成大家的不安"},{"start":11060.845,"end":11060.865,"text":"三、4、5、6、7、8、9、10"},{"start":11077.808,"end":11100.917,"text":"因為當人家覺得有一點荒腔折磅而且政策反覆,一下子說這樣,一下子說那樣,隔天又說道歉十幾次說他只是在發想階段,我覺得這樣子會讓民眾對整個內閣的可信度打折,間接影響到院長的credit,所以這一點提醒院長可以鼓勵大家再深思熟慮,再發起。"},{"start":11104.739,"end":11120.466,"text":"臺鐵公司10月初有一份從業人員待遇表的草案,將新進人員起薪調升3000元,但是公司化後原任的1萬多名員工待遇似乎都還沒有更改,請問這是否屬實?"},{"start":11123.387,"end":11123.407,"text":"是!"},{"start":11138.843,"end":11155.506,"text":"但是呢大家有問題有疑慮的是說為什麼新任人員的待遇提高原任的員工卻沒有調薪如果有沒有估算過說為什麼只有調薪進人員然後如果全體調要提升多少呢"},{"start":11156.892,"end":11158.213,"text":"就是希望能夠妥善處理因為本席也很擔心說假設"},{"start":11177.759,"end":11205.579,"text":"就是這個薪資的不公平導致說臺鐵有罷工或者是說營運可能無法負擔假設要全面調薪可能營運無法負擔那會不會像臺電一樣要發聲說交通部要撥補他這樣子的一個情況目前的狀況確實是不公平所以才調那從業人員比原本的人員低那我們現在希望從業人員先拉上來先拉上來這個是第一步我們要先做的"},{"start":11206.039,"end":11228.293,"text":"是 因為本席接到通知接到這個陳情就是已經有1500多名的台鐵員工聯署要到交通部去開記者會希望能夠提出原任人員要有合理的這個待遇方式那本席在這裡希望部長能夠妥善處理不要影響到其他我們一般消費者的權益"},{"start":11232.503,"end":11255.816,"text":"請問院長,數位部的打炸APP你有看過嗎?有。有看過。你知道數位部應該是打炸最重要的一個機關之一是嗎?從技術面來看是,但實際執行的應該還有我們的檢警調系統。那對於數位部打炸的成果,院長你滿意嗎?"},{"start":11257.399,"end":11267.133,"text":"術衛部打詐的成果他這個APP只是一個讓大家檢視他受到的國人受到的資訊是真是假他是在檢視這個真假"},{"start":11268.683,"end":11290.849,"text":"有個數據喔本席跟院長說一下去年的詐欺案件發生是37832件在前年增加了8314件加了28.17%詐騙的這個案件是越打越多那部長你們數位部在9月底推出了網路詐騙通報查詢網是不是?"},{"start":11293.59,"end":11294.811,"text":"那請問一下這個APP花了多少錢?"},{"start":11302.438,"end":11316.747,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一"},{"start":11326.593,"end":11333.467,"text":"Apple Store跟Play商店的評分是多少你知道嗎?大概是從3左右"},{"start":11334.244,"end":11360.78,"text":"差不多2.6星部長你會不會覺得這個有一點不滿意我個人從事軟體做40年所以這個兩個層面一個是說它好不好用那我承認這個推出來的時候的確在可用就是好不好用是有進步的空間但是它的效果我們看到了我給委員報告一下我們在15天的公測本席再提醒你你講到了"},{"start":11363.254,"end":11388.553,"text":"這個數位部上架幾天之後大家反應很不好他馬上就下架了他這個詐騙通報網他說這個是公測APP是公測就已經完成了階段性任務所以你1300萬15天就把它用完了你就把它花了就把它下架了我的老天啊我真的是嚇一跳"},{"start":11390.295,"end":11405.716,"text":"詐騙通報還需要公測?而且你只用了15天就把它下降了,我到底看到什麼啦?你們公測了什麼?你們完成了什麼階段性任務?因為我們原來就是要收集一萬個民眾的feedback,那這個我們收集到了。"},{"start":11405.996,"end":11422.982,"text":"那請問還有第二階段的公測第三階段的公測是不是反正只要做不好就說是公測就可以下架但是如果數位部做不好你也可以說是數位部是公測啊數位部也可以裁掉啊我們在上去的時候就已經說這叫公測版"},{"start":11423.564,"end":11449.686,"text":"所以並不是後來才說的就是另外一個更嚴重的問題本席在下架前就已經下載了目前還可以截圖請看這個昨天的截圖就我們打造APP自己聲稱說用AI去尋找詐騙資訊的檔案結果全部都是色情廣告全部都是色情廣告你覺得這個是數位部想要達成的目標嗎所以就是我們在講說我們第一個公測的目的就是找出這些問題"},{"start":11450.367,"end":11457.469,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":11468.692,"end":11491.613,"text":"指出這個網站有問題之後他可以進去通報詳細來說明他被騙三個是這個APP必須要非常好的操作所以部長您真的要加油啊所以這個錢就好像撒了十幾天就花了一千多萬結果還沒有成果搜尋到了全部都是色情廣告這合適嗎?"},{"start":11492.834,"end":11495.696,"text":"因為我時間有限,我想要接下來再問一下地方建設,就是院長,我們這個斗六鐵道次庫停船,到目前為止,今年9月兩則,5月好幾條人命,"},{"start":11512.108,"end":11539.778,"text":"都沒了所以針對斗六鐵路高價化一案本席今年也邀請了會刊多次最終已經解決了曲率半徑效益評估跟臨時評交到的三大關口讓斗六鐵路高價化可以敗部復活這是斗六人已經期盼了二三十年的夢但是院長真的很需要您的幫忙因為呢縣府把這個案子可行性評估"},{"start":11540.578,"end":11541.538,"text":"請問一下這個審查期程大概還要多久?"},{"start":11541.538,"end":11542.558,"text":"部長您可以回答嗎?"},{"start":11563.983,"end":11589.333,"text":"目前我們已經送到部了,鐵道局那邊已經送到交通部了,那我們交通部最近會來開審查會議。最近大概多久?我要跟內部再討論一下。一個禮拜、三個禮拜還是三個月?我跟內部來討論一下。因為你加快騎乘,你是在保障我們這些人民的行車安全。那我也想舉一個例子,就是說"},{"start":11619.793,"end":11638.182,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員指詢,謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢,謝謝。報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽的來自南投縣,南投市永興社區發展協會,熱情歡迎。報告委員會現在接下來登記第三位柯志恩委員,請發言。"},{"start":11646.058,"end":11646.881,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長及交通部備詢"},{"start":11657.523,"end":11684.137,"text":"科委員好 院長好 部長好我想昨天在我們東湖發生少年無照駕駛一個非常遺憾的一個事件我想更要讓我們數字裡面讓我們覺得更驚訝的是根據交通部的統計每年大概有30萬到40萬是有交通事故的但是有5萬是屬於無照這樣的一個駕駛而且平均會造成600人死亡而且還有6萬多人受傷最重要的是"},{"start":11684.737,"end":11696.438,"text":"死傷人數竟然是酒駕的6倍!我們來跟酒駕來比,過去我們說酒駕是零容忍,那無照呢?無照呢?無照駕駛又是如何呢?"},{"start":11702.242,"end":11719.768,"text":"我覺得這個部分在法規條文上面這個就完全是交通部如果能夠率先來做定到一個方向立法院絕對配合因為這件事情比酒駕還要多出6倍這個數字是很難令人"},{"start":11720.288,"end":11734.825,"text":"接受的好不好那接下來有個民生的問題啊因為因應這個新店家的上路啊那每個人都會關切這個高鐵跟台鐵會不會漲價因為我每天的日常就是高鐵轉台鐵所以對我來說是非常的重要的那會不會漲價"},{"start":11737.987,"end":11766.076,"text":"報告委員,台鐵的部分,我們有承諾過在春節之前不長假。對,不長假,春節之前,現在目前距離春節只有3個月,你知道我們保久乳還可以保存6個月,那你這個3個月,說實話你別保久乳還不如誒,是不是?而且你應應店家的這個部分裡面調高,但是剛剛張家滬居委員也特別提到了,因為我們知道要為台鐵的基層來好好的講一下話,董座,你知道董座為什麼會加薪嗎?他加薪的理由是什麼?"},{"start":11766.696,"end":11769.137,"text":"當董做的薪資到19總計到18的時候 靈鬼作業危險的今天每個小時只有40塊錢 只有40塊錢"},{"start":11792.063,"end":11818.045,"text":"這對所有的基層員工來說真是情何以堪我們再來看一下而且呢剛剛部長也特別提到了你們要加薪然後希望我們這台鐵的這基層能夠趕上國營的事業其實還是有很大段的一個理由的我們來看一下下面一頁你看他基本上面往下他的這個薪資裡面到底行政院現在是卡在你們行政院過去來說我們前一頁卡在這個行政院當中你看從這個過程528已經喊報政院"},{"start":11820.427,"end":11820.447,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":11847.029,"end":11850.892,"text":"報告委員,這個才剛送到院長那邊,因為我們跟人總那邊需要一個協調,這個部分我們很努力,然後也很快會達成,所以請委員放心,在講業務的緣程快會完成。"},{"start":11871.327,"end":11890.674,"text":"關於罷工怎麼辦,我們來看一下,因為時間有限了,觀光產業真的是一個鏟子,也收到非常多觀光,台灣這麼美麗的寶島。各位,你知道7月的時候我們人數是衝破150萬出國去,這比去年還是多了27%,而且你看一下,但是我們國內的旅遊,你看我們的住房率,平均的房價,"},{"start":11891.274,"end":11891.294,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10"},{"start":11921.394,"end":11922.295,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":11940.083,"end":11963.119,"text":"大家問到你我們的觀光業該如何振興的時候當然你告訴我們今年要達到1000萬的旅客是不可能的你下修到750萬但是明年你還是把它設定在1000萬如果整個大環境整個制度沒有改變的話你為什麼認為還是可以到1000萬你不能有一個高標準然後到年底的時候告訴我對不起我們達不到我們就下修這不是我們設定目標的主要目的吧"},{"start":11964.059,"end":11964.199,"text":"為什麼不..."},{"start":11990.775,"end":12014.321,"text":"部長謝謝但是院長我還是要告訴你為什麼我覺得這件事情非常的重要因為我們大家有個很大的指標叫做瑞士洛桑管理學院公佈的你知道我們台灣在IMD的世界競爭力排名其實不錯每年都在進步它有四個面向但是其中一個很大面向叫經濟層面經濟層面裡面我們是四個面向裡面其實最差的這是你非常重視的經濟面向而且經濟面向裡面有十個指標 抱歉"},{"start":12015.621,"end":12029.355,"text":"十個指標當中呢,就是觀光指標最糟糕。 64個全世界的經濟體當中,我們台灣只贏了4個。 所以表示我們的觀光是拖垮了我們整個經濟的面向。 所以觀光有多麼重要,不是嗎?"},{"start":12029.355,"end":12034.48,"text":"然後呢,我們提出來,然後我們也把觀光成立數了。 但是數有沒有辦法把我們的觀光產業變得比較好呢?"},{"start":12034.48,"end":12034.52,"text":"你看。"},{"start":12037.723,"end":12037.903,"text":"執行局委員"},{"start":12068.804,"end":12070.625,"text":"我會希望觀光署跟國內一些觀光的產業跟我甚至觀光協會每年我們的觀光旅展都非常的熱鬧"},{"start":12090.656,"end":12116.322,"text":"但是數據會縮化嘛,就是旅遊…對啦,但是就是會縮化,然後我告訴你啊,是,是,因為時間關係齁,你看我們現在的航點喔,高雄小港機場的航點喔,只恢復在一起的七成到八成,雖然有非常多,你看下面有非常多,大家非常努力的,然後最近的聯合航空有沒有,部長你應該關切到了,他也公開宣布說明年7月要到我們高雄來喔,啊你們,你們交通部有沒有很積極?"},{"start":12117.33,"end":12144.885,"text":"當然很積極,現在聯合航空已經來跟我們申請。沒有啊,部長你的資訊有落差,我昨天還夢過民航局,目前為止聯合航空還沒有遞書申請表。他給我的資料是10月16日上午。他還沒有介紹,所以我覺得部長我們要積極一點,我們要更積極一點,讓我們只能夠飛到美國是飛夢市好不好,這點非常的重要。人家遞書改懶制,人家已經公開宣布了,你交通部就不能坐等,你就要好好的去跟人家好好的接洽,這是我認為最重要的好不好。"},{"start":12145.885,"end":12169.411,"text":"太多委員支持我們會把小港機場再有系統有計劃性的 一定要的啦現在去小港到桃園每個都往桃園然後還有大包小包連桃園下了高鐵之後要到那個機場裡面的我們都還沒有好好的這個部分 所以請委員要支持我們各個年度的這樣公共建設 公共建設沒有問題啦把預算編足公共建設我們都不會擋啦院長 所以預算要趕快過我們明年才可以小港機場的"},{"start":12170.151,"end":12176.455,"text":"現在我都沒有辦法答應你啊。我現在只是大家非常的納悶啊。過去信誓旦旦不管是在蘇院長或是在任何人信誓旦旦都告訴"},{"start":12199.17,"end":12199.37,"text":"主席"},{"start":12211.584,"end":12217.069,"text":"現在也還沒有真正的定案還沒有定案那左營案是因為很多的交通專家跟地方人士認為說這個車到左營以後要往屏東走他必須有一個倒退路所以大家認為不好"},{"start":12233.323,"end":12254.756,"text":"但高雄案就是因為他要用淺鈍的工法還是多少少影響到現在的交通狀況那一定的因為你這個黑暗期是有嘛兩者之間所以到現在決定怎麼樣再拖下去怎麼樣但是院長我在利用這個時間我覺得我們還是要把歷史說一下說實在的高雄發案我現在聽到有些立委又開始在馬尾拉了我親自問過葉部長交通部長"},{"start":12256.397,"end":12256.757,"text":"我沒有這樣講過"},{"start":12285.93,"end":12287.211,"text":"我只是要提醒,好,那我們就把這個責任清楚。"},{"start":12301.107,"end":12326.095,"text":"當初的葉部長也提出而且當初葉部長所提出的理由是經過審慎的報告跟現在的鐵道局所做的報告有什麼差別嗎有什麼差別嗎你們那時候很多人把他罵得要死只管他那時候所提出的報告跟現在鐵道局跟蔡政府不是賴政府是蔡政府的鐵道局其實都是一樣的所以不要是國民黨提出來就有好像有問題要追溯到過去蔡政府提出來大家就覺得沒有意見"},{"start":12327.296,"end":12344.878,"text":"我只是在想辦法解決現在的問題所以說我還是強調那時候並不是而且民進黨執政了8年你如果認為高雄案很棒的話早該實行不要牽托太多但是我還是要問一下部長部長你有沒有看過2019年的評估報告有關於高雄案你沒看過"},{"start":12346.729,"end":12362.698,"text":"因為我沒有提出一個非常清楚的有關於高雄案的這樣子一個報告,因為你現在告訴我們就是說,你有沒有看過,你有沒有仔細看過他的屏幕好不好?2019年的我沒有看過。你沒有看過,你要看一下,因為你現在告訴我們現在是要用選對是一種新的做法,是不是?你那時候有特別提到。"},{"start":12363.358,"end":12377.208,"text":"現在潛頓的技術會比過去更好一些?實際上2019年的時候,但是我還是要提醒在2019年的時候,《蘋果報告》裡面就告訴大家潛頓就是一個可行,所以它並不是一個新的技術,那個時候就已經提出來了,所以我剛剛為什麼盤點?"},{"start":12378.889,"end":12403.336,"text":"都已經把過去的優點跟劣點全部都已經盤點完成了,然後你告訴我所以當初的優點為什麼現在變成不是優點,然後把整個大的方向做一些的改變,這個加加減減,對,又還沒有定案,然後到說到年底有可能,現在幾乎所有的高雄的鄉親都認為到年底,因為說實在的我們南高雄因為是這樣子的黑暗期已經少了8萬人口了,"},{"start":12404.616,"end":12405.896,"text":"一直都是說年底之前會定案年底之前不會再改變了吧"},{"start":12433.615,"end":12434.856,"text":"我們一直都說年底之前"},{"start":12463.955,"end":12463.975,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":12486.169,"end":12487.99,"text":"報告委員,我們很積極的跟地方在溝通,如果我現在大膽的請教委員你的建議呢?謝謝"},{"start":12511.008,"end":12533.173,"text":"臺北你看有板橋有臺北市長有南港你看整個所帶動的一個商圈那當然我只是很扼腕當初我提出來這個部分包括我們議員提出來這個部分還被民進黨的議員消遣你難道不知道我們如何如何就現在這一群人同樣的一批人突然站出來說高雄發言才是最好的選擇你知道對於當初所提出來贊成這個提出來的人"},{"start":12534.553,"end":12560.694,"text":"這個這個落差好我們還是一句話不用往前面看我現在只是非常強調的對我們來說整個南高雄的發展那就是如何用這個降低最少的困擾能夠減短我們的黑暗期然後呢還是一句話永續的發展不是大家共同的一個目標謝謝委員部長我們高雄案多一票多一票不只一票啊你去問一下啦非常多啦但是呢還是把2019年平鋪告報全部把它做個比對不要當初的優點現在應該還是優點當初的缺點該怎麼解決"},{"start":12571.801,"end":12575.506,"text":"謝謝柯政委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢,謝謝。報言會上午的質詢到此為止,下午2點30分我們繼續開會進行交通組織質詢,先來休息。"},{"start":21640.911,"end":21644.576,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會,進行交通組織質詢。 請林委員、易軍質詢。"},{"start":21686.852,"end":21689.333,"text":"有請卓院長有請卓院長備詢林委員好你好你好還有請那個交通部的陳部長還有NCC喔抱歉抱歉那個NCC的綠美小弟的NCC的委法主委你就不用上台了我們等一下請卓院長等一下回答就好了"},{"start":21721.479,"end":21746.395,"text":"院長看到本席你應該知道我想今天本席想要諮詢的重點是什麼了吧?花東或是護理的問題。是是,沒錯本席要繼續關心我們花蓮的觀光還有花蓮交通的問題。那院長首先我還是先感謝你啦,自從你上任之後真的都有遵守承諾。你每個月真的都有到花蓮來視察。我下禮拜還要去。"},{"start":21749.002,"end":21773.695,"text":"謝謝謝謝關心我們花蓮的災後重建但是本席不知道你是真的有沒有看到問題因為還是你只是走馬看花聽聽地方官員給你的看似認真的簡報做做樣子呢因為對我們花蓮人來講現在最重要的問題是要如何活下去因為仰賴我們觀光產業發展的城市因為這個天災各行各業都已經變成了產業真的是棲產的產業"},{"start":21777.349,"end":21798.358,"text":"那我想要請問一下院長還有部長那院長和部長請問一下花蓮平常是不是經常發生地震?花蓮是屬於地震頻傳的區域之一那花蓮是不是常常都是一直在發生地震?你們有這樣感覺嗎?餘震的狀況應該是很頻繁"},{"start":21800.239,"end":21827.276,"text":"那現在問題就來了就是說那我再請問一下電視的新聞台在花蓮0403地震發生以前會不會一直這樣播放花蓮地震的跑馬燈呢那你知道我為什麼沒有地震的發生當然媒體是不會去有這個訊息來報導的好其實好院長其實不是這個樣子你知道我為什麼要這樣問嗎因為花蓮的好多的鄉親都跟我反映說尤其是我們"},{"start":21828.337,"end":21855.894,"text":"在花蓮鄉親的群組上面大家都說三不五時就收到地震的警報有的時候只是一個完全沒有影響到民生和交通的小小地震各家的新聞都是一直在報導而且最後反而是其他縣市的親友都會讓每一個人都感覺人心惶惶甚至比我們花蓮人更害怕更緊張然後都跑來關心花蓮人但是老實說太過頻繁還有非必要的"},{"start":21856.414,"end":21856.454,"text":"﹚第11屆第2會議"},{"start":21875.325,"end":21901.048,"text":"因為花蓮的光光還沒有死 其實人都已經快嚇死了那我們怎麼樣振興花蓮的光光呢 因為大家都不敢來了啊其實在面對地震的時候 應該要教育民眾要怎麼樣的臨危不亂反而這個是比較重要的 結果現在大小地震都放大報導搞到最後都變成唯恐天下不亂 而且現在你看打開電視台"},{"start":21902.429,"end":21922.598,"text":"都一直播花蓮地震的速報為什麼每次一個地震開始的時候各家新聞台的跑馬燈就一直在出現一直在出現一直跑跑到人民的心都慌了跑到大家都真的都不敢到花蓮來旅遊了那院長你知道我們花蓮人心裡其實真的是苦到說不出口了嗎"},{"start":21925.539,"end":21947.107,"text":"地震的預報或是這個報導應該不會侷限是花蓮地區啦況且我們的地震中心或是我們的氣象署他都有法定的職權跟義務必須在一定的程度必須讓全民知道這樣的資訊所以我是希望說讓大家知道這個權利要維護但知道的時候要告訴大家知而不亂"},{"start":21948.385,"end":21951.447,"text":"警告、預警也是好的。警告的時候也叫大家警告,但是你不要警告。"},{"start":21965.598,"end":21992.346,"text":"而且我是想要拜託拜託院長還有NCC可不可以開始請各家新聞台都要自律呢而且你們這地震的警報也要分等級啊你現在二級也在登然後每天都是看到花蓮地震這誰敢來啊我們現在每一個人都是對花蓮沒有信心欸他們都不敢來欸因為他每次都覺得鎮壓一定會是在花蓮然後一看其實只有二級還有三級"},{"start":21993.82,"end":22010.205,"text":"前幾天就發生了啊但是那個新聞台就是跑馬燈一直在跑啊所以我覺得這樣不只自己嚇自己而且是嚇死全國的民眾而且造成全國的民眾的恐慌尤其是大家真的對花蓮都沒有信心了"},{"start":22010.985,"end":22028.652,"text":"當然啦,剛才院長有說,所以其實我也感謝各個新聞台對花蓮的地區的關心,但是這個東西是已經太過關心了,反而產生一個無形的壓力,也讓我們全國的民眾無形中產生了一個叫做花蓮隨時都在地震的標籤化。"},{"start":22031.554,"end":22060.073,"text":"這個標籤話會讓大家都不敢來所以我們將心比心嘛行政院或NCC是否可以建議媒體開始減少全國民眾對花蓮地區的恐懼如果是這樣像院長每個月都到花蓮你也是希望說我們的災後重建還有振興要有一個上升一個非常大的幫助所以我覺得這個或許真的是你們要研議一下是不是要怎麼樣讓大家對花蓮有信心"},{"start":22061.553,"end":22088.703,"text":"請委員理解行政院應該是沒有辦法要求媒體掃報哪一些內容那NCC可以去處理啊我一直要求氣象署在針對各項的預警預告的過程當中要更精確更精準這個是我們花蓮鄉親的問題每一個人都跟我反應每一個群組都說這是要嚇死人嗎我們花蓮現在經濟那麼差了"},{"start":22089.703,"end":22108.692,"text":"氣象署它是不是有一定的公告預告的一個標準到達什麼標準必須要向全民來揭露這樣我記得04、03在那之前的時候其實沒有像現在這個樣子其實氣象署他們只要有地震那必然就會做一個報告啦氣象署的動作一定是這個我剛已經講了要分等級"},{"start":22114.134,"end":22132.021,"text":"氣象署的責任是只要有地震就要告訴民眾有地震他不是說分一級二級三級的問題只要有地震對民眾會很希望只要有地震都要知道所以氣象署大家希望他能夠準這第一個第二個大家希望他的訊息能夠通透這個我們一直在努力做"},{"start":22132.481,"end":22146.094,"text":"所以我現在也是代表我花蓮的鄉親來這邊講這些反映這些事情因為真的現在經濟都很差好我再來想講第二個問題就是院長跟部長你們知道有關花蓮鐵路高價化的交通的問題嗎"},{"start":22147.835,"end":22167.47,"text":"臺灣的東部的鐵路在花蓮市和吉安鄉市區就有7個平面的平交道穿越花蓮市和吉安鄉的鬧區所以這個已經引發民怨的不斷的民怨所以現在臺鐵花蓮站和吉安甘城站的高架工程其實這個蓋我想應該比蘇花安還簡單吧一定不會比蘇花安還難但是究竟何時可以規劃動工還是根本就是不想做"},{"start":22175.896,"end":22200.373,"text":"因為據我了解今年9月的27號鐵道局的計劃書已經送到交通部的本部了但是為什麼又石沉大海呢?音訊全無呢?那請問目前計劃書究竟是已經送到交通部了嗎?還是進度如何呢?那院長跟部長你現在是不是可以承諾本席馬上加速審核呢?因為據我了解"},{"start":22202.115,"end":22215.951,"text":"這個計畫書在政府機關其實來來回回已經修過好多次然後民眾都在等待多年的鐵路的高架化而且在去年112年的4月獲得前交通部長正面的回應了"},{"start":22216.471,"end":22236.946,"text":"同意將花東地區的鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫的工程納入花蓮站至甘城站有7個鐵路平交道的高架立體化辦理,而且並且他也答應了要全額的負擔,改善花蓮市7個鐵路平交道的立體化工程及吉安車站的高架化經費。"},{"start":22238.007,"end":22266.75,"text":"但是本席翻閱了114年的預算書在鐵道局的鐵路及捷運的建設的計畫中有編列花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫中他有總經費是4562億中114年編列了600億元所以我現在只是想說難道莫非新上任的陳部長你沒有想要黃牛了嗎你不想兌現前任的支票了嗎是不是又要欺騙我們花蓮人了"},{"start":22267.882,"end":22290.173,"text":"報告委員這個案子現在正在進行的是花東的鐵軌軌道的這個雙軌電氣化這個部分一直在進行當中這個沒有什麼黃牛不黃牛的問題那您所提到的高價化的部分目前也正在審議當中目前國發會正在審議那什麼時候可以好呢?國發會在審議這個我沒辦法替他們回答那你可能要幫我們追蹤一下吧"},{"start":22296.383,"end":22321.116,"text":"OK好那我想院長其實那麼多個月都到花蓮其實非常充分了解花蓮還有東部的民眾雖然是一個小小的臺灣但是東西的的交通是非常的不同的大部分的交通都是以西部為主嗎我上一次質詢的時候也有說嘛有比較圖出來嘛對不對然後相對西部的時候那我們花蓮的交通資源真的是嚴重的不足"},{"start":22321.696,"end":22350.322,"text":"所以這是我們花蓮民眾大家最痛也是最擔憂的尤其是花蓮在這幾次0403的大地震還有凱米風災還有山陀爾颱風之後那我們花蓮對外的交通中斷真的是變成孤城了啦所以我們現在看一下現在東西的已經不平衡了東西的交通已經不平衡了然後我們現在看現在這次只要風災之後連台鐵還有公路全部都斷了而且這個還有小心土石流"},{"start":22350.842,"end":22376.2,"text":"那我真的是覺得還有我們來看一下另外一個就是我們災前災時災後的情況的比較所以災後的時候也會有管制然後還是不方便那我們是不是看這樣之後我們是不是要快一點要找一條有一條安全替代道路像舒花庵這樣是不是要快一點把它建造完成還是按照其程要如期完工呢"},{"start":22376.9,"end":22401.723,"text":"沒有錯 報告委員 蘇哈安是我們按照期程也一步一步在推動我想這個蘇哈安如果完成之後對交通的改善我們是有所期待的只是我跟您一樣非常的遺憾每次重大工程進行到大家正在如火如荼的時候就來一場大雨來一個颱風讓我們很多要從復原復舊又開始這是我們共同遇到的大自然給我們的挑戰"},{"start":22402.123,"end":22416.721,"text":"我再請院長再看一下像我們東部的交通的便利性沒有一項勝過西部的現在以前本來上一次來比較的時候說什麼雙腳還可以翻山越嶺現在幾乎土石流之後連那種走的都沒有辦法過去"},{"start":22418.082,"end":22442.11,"text":"所以像執政者的交通建設,這對執政者的交通建設是不是一個諷刺呢?這對我們身為同樣是中華民國的國民情何以堪?尤其是在鐵路方面,東部沒有捷運也沒有高鐵,搭火車一票籃球,遇到風災整個都封閉。那院長請問一下花東鄉情除了公路、鐵路,還是不是還可以選擇飛機?"},{"start":22443.47,"end":22444.17,"text":"委員所說的是道路中斷的時候嗎?"},{"start":22473.933,"end":22486.405,"text":"遇到風災又是道路中斷的時候可能比較困難原因是這個樣子如果風災又道路中斷我原本的航空也不能飛船當然也不行因為有風災的時候颱風正在跑"},{"start":22488.387,"end":22516.111,"text":"然後一結束之後呢?因為萬一正好家裡有急事馬上要趕回去的時候呢?報告委員在上一次9月8號有一次也剛好因為遇到大雨所以道路中斷包含公路包含鐵路遇到土石流我們那個時候啟動了三個小時就啟動了一個輸運方案飛機馬上加班那另外就是往南回的鐵路我們馬上加班不但是南回運到輸運大家到高雄我們連高鐵的部分也都接得上"},{"start":22516.564,"end":22538.046,"text":"我們高鐵也加開班次讓那個民眾可以從南部到北部去所以3個小時的SOP我們在交通部已經建立了所以你們已經做好SOP了就對了是不是?沒有錯這個部分我已經建立了但是我有看過你們的SOP目前是有但是不完整所以我是想說如何解決花蓮交通不便還有臨時發生交通中斷的時候你那個吊派飛機"},{"start":22539.087,"end":22539.107,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":22563.974,"end":22584.453,"text":"報告委員您所說的A跟B計畫目前交通部正在努力當中就是航空跟海運的部分藍色公路的部分我也努力想要把它建立起來不過還在努力的過程但您所指的這個C計畫有關於國防部的派遣的部分大概交通部沒有辦法去指揮國防部的部分所以這個部分我大概不行那A跟B我正在努力"},{"start":22585.52,"end":22585.881,"text":"好,謝謝林委員"},{"start":22610.902,"end":22637.154,"text":"好,謝謝卓院長。下一位請廖先祥委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。一樣麻煩幫我們邀請卓院長。卓院長請備詢。"},{"start":22646.178,"end":22673.01,"text":"院長好,放心啊,今天不吵架。我們沒有吵架,沒有吵架。表現我的誠意,我先感謝我們賴清德總統,因為在金山萬里發生大雨、自災的時候,他有到金山萬里去看我們的一些,他的鄉親,也是我們的國民。那總統有到市場裡面去看,金山市場淹水得非常嚴重嘛,對不對。那市場也,總統也有提出一些方案,就是說,現行制度我們,"},{"start":22674.035,"end":22684.138,"text":"總統講這句話應該是對全部的攤商講嘛對不對他希望這個方案能夠讓所有的攤商都能夠適用總統想幫助所有的人對不對"},{"start":22703.216,"end":22707.079,"text":"總統給大家的承諾他現在很難落地因為他有個狀況就是我們經濟部當然會要求來申請的攤商你必須要有營業營業登記商業登記等等的"},{"start":22725.612,"end":22725.712,"text":"總共138家攤商"},{"start":22740.011,"end":22766.141,"text":"但是總共只有28家的攤商符合資格他有營業登記或商業登記剩下的110家的攤商他們有營業的事實他們有繳租金給市政府他們確實是都有受災了但是他們現在都不符合我們經濟部的一個規範那經濟部當然也想協助他們經濟部現在提出的方案是那我就定額好了啦你買個冰箱我看是要補助你3000來6000是什麼的"},{"start":22767.461,"end":22768.122,"text":"我了解委員提出這樣的看法"},{"start":22789.383,"end":22817.381,"text":"也相當的有他的道理在一定的區域裡面固定的商家他有營業的事實對 有營業的事實鄉鄰隔壁我有你沒有可能造成大家心理上的如果這樣子的話我會請經濟部就現在這個本來節能減碳的這個方式原來是對有營業登記證的一些公司是不是可以在法律的解釋上面如果是固定的區域在一定的時間他提出證明"},{"start":22818.382,"end":22826.531,"text":"我想能不能用在法律可以解釋通的狀況底下,我們來做一個專案的討論。我知道,那謝謝院長願意正面的來協助我們的受災戶解決可能他們遇到的問題,先謝謝我們的院長。"},{"start":22834.707,"end":22861.019,"text":"好接下來我就討論一下地方的交通建設下一張我們的這個捷運汐止民生線嘛那其實在今天新北市政府已經完成評選了啦那後續會公道決標的結果那大家預期應該是會順利啦但是當初為什麼會有一個汐止民生線跑出來可能你們都知道原因就是因為原本整條線是到大稻埕汐止區公所到台北市的大稻埕啊時任的台北市政府"},{"start":22861.519,"end":22887.648,"text":"那時候沒有意願做所以新北市先來做局部的路段但是一條捷運我們大家應該都知道一條捷運一定是完整的路段它的效益才高嘛就像我們台北市因為路網密集所以很高台中、高雄還在發展階段所以搭乘率比較低一點那站數越少搭乘的誘因就越低那整條路線越長轉成了站點越多那這條線的效益就更大嘛所以當初的整條線的規劃是汐止區公所到這個"},{"start":22889.949,"end":22910.362,"text":"臺北市的大稻埕,目前感謝我們行政院的協助, 汐止到東湖核定了,地方政府在做了。現在臺北市的東湖大稻埕段, 正由我們的新北市政府在做綜合括號的報告。當然送報告到交通部,我們交通部一定會有審核的機制, 那也提出了一些意見,這些意見可能就是一些"},{"start":22911.923,"end":22931.598,"text":"一些細項我覺得我們也沒有必要在這邊討論那麼多那只是說我們的院長可不可以在這邊就做一些宣誓性的一些發言宣誓性的一些你們未來我們行政院會怎麼樣子來交通來這個交代交通部關於我們汐止民生線東湖段到大稻埕的段希望我們交通部怎麼樣子來協助"},{"start":22933.158,"end":22959.385,"text":"我所知道部分現在這條線就它的興建營運跟主管機關都還在討論當中所以交通部應該要掌握這樣的討論的重點這樣跟新北或是台北市政府去做更多的討論那這個牽涉到這個從汐止到台北這個整個市區裡面的一條動線很重要那麼是請部長來說明一下未來怎麼樣進行這樣的討論跟進行"},{"start":22960.825,"end":22961.826,"text":"一條路線只做一半"},{"start":22978.667,"end":22990.872,"text":"三分之一他的效率一定是差的既然這三分之一已經合定了那剩下的三分之二我們盡量不要讓他的進度落後太多盡量讓整條線的效益都能夠彰顯出來我相信院長跟部長應該都同意這樣的觀點吧"},{"start":22992.563,"end":23013.657,"text":"是嘛,好不好,那就後續就繼續拜託。那接下來我想請問一下院長,你應該有開過車嘛,你有駕照嘛,對不對?有嘛,對不對?那其實我們開車,就是道教條例都有規定嘛齁,要打方向燈嘛,齁,下一張。齁,那其實打方向燈好像是一個很common sense,一個基本的開車應該要基本的一個"},{"start":23015.314,"end":23033.494,"text":"的能力或是說沒有開車的人也知道好像要怎麼打方向呢?但是實際上不是,因為我們台灣的道路並不是都像很多台北市的都市規劃的道路,都是棋盤式的、工整式的。 所以說我前幾天有邀請我們的交通部跟警政署來研討一下,因為有很多一些奇怪的路段"},{"start":23034.235,"end":23056.296,"text":"那到底要怎麼打方向燈,要不要打?那以這個路口來講,其實我這些路段都是當初清北市政府警察局政府清北市政府警察局提供的一些路段,那大家一起來討論一下疑義啦那這個就是Google的路況圖,那左下角當然就是每一張的左下角就是它的俯視圖啦那我想請問一下院長,如果說你開車到這邊來了"},{"start":23057.777,"end":23084.233,"text":"那你要往這條就是圓通路那你要往左切就是貨車的方向去切看起來左岸地方您會不會打左轉燈?如果是右邊那張圖往左邊走是不是我們的方向是阿應該是往左邊走往左邊走要不要打方向燈那如果這條是幹道他應該算直行吧欸院長還算有一點概念對他不用打方向燈好那下一張"},{"start":23087.623,"end":23102.708,"text":"第二這條路就很好笑了當然這也是地方政府的問題一條路開到這邊來往前走是叫廉聖街往左走也叫廉聖街那您看一下右邊這邊如果說你要順著路往左邊走的話要不要打方向燈右邊這張圖對右邊這張圖往右邊像這個機車這樣子走往左走嗎對"},{"start":23111.867,"end":23122.279,"text":"應該也是同樣道理吧,還是他,因為這樣看不出哪一條是主要的道路。對,其實左邊應該是換道路。有換線的應該是主要道路。對,好,那所以說院長的答案應該是?"},{"start":23124.85,"end":23142.347,"text":"要不要打?如果是往左邊走,他有畫中間一條線是不是?不曉得。如果是沿著這樣線,沿著線走應該是不用打方向燈?對,我也認為應該不用,但是這個路口真的很特殊,他前面一定要連線接,所以這可能牽扯到地方主管機關到底怎麼認定誰是,哪一條是主要幹道的續行。"},{"start":23142.887,"end":23142.907,"text":"左邊﹖對"},{"start":23170.814,"end":23174.377,"text":"路口有右轉標示跟左轉標示,那如果說我們順著右邊的路,摩托車這條路走"},{"start":23193.997,"end":23207.694,"text":"兩邊都有摩托車,是哪一個?右邊右邊,走右邊這條?可能要按那個三角形的,兩邊都讓他亮吧?走右邊的,當然右邊是幹道啦,我跟院長說右邊是幹道啦,如果是幹道是一樣,那如果說往右轉的話?右轉幹道是不用嗎?"},{"start":23214.605,"end":23240.531,"text":"其實部長也是因為這麼問,應該是跟剛剛的答案相反。應該是不用啦,但其實連部長都有疑問了。就代表我們其實大眾對要不要打方向燈這件事情,在現行的法規其實大家沒有一致的高度的共識啦,包括我們的交通部有解釋,我等一下再給您看一下。那可能包括民眾啊,或者是警察單位,其實大家有不同的見解啦。我們直接往後面,再下一張。"},{"start":23242.452,"end":23243.073,"text":"車輛1該條道路現行轉彎行駛時"},{"start":23259.135,"end":23279.137,"text":"非屬車輛不依該道路原方向行駛的轉向行為那駕駛人不需要顯示方向燈所以院長剛剛講的很多的答案應該都是幾乎都是對的那這個轉這個依道路行駛那他不包括穿越入口如果說包括穿越入口那包括地上有沒有"},{"start":23279.817,"end":23306.767,"text":"左彎線或右彎線,因為剛剛有一張圖是我們有右彎的標示跟左彎的標示,我們往右走,那院長也認為不用打方向燈。 但是實務上我們的基層或是我們的交通單位在對於道路的標線跟要不要打方向燈這件事情的時候,其實是沒有掛鉤的。 因為沒有掛鉤所以說院長知道剛剛那條路往右邊走的時候,你可以跳到那一張,往右邊走的時候你知道是不用打方向燈的。"},{"start":23308.473,"end":23332.399,"text":"就這一張因為你看左邊這邊他其實是有右轉箭頭的那原則上其實他是不用打方向燈因為他是照著道路線行走那所以說其實我那個現在的這個運輸研究所交通部運輸運營所也有發現打方向燈這一件事情因為最近的檢舉案件真的很多那警察同仁他每一個因為每一個員警同仁他對於"},{"start":23333.697,"end":23355.102,"text":"他對於路口要不要打方向燈這件事情他自己本身的法治的觀念可能都不一定有院長那麼好他可能覺得有右轉箭頭我就要打右轉燈我龍頭右轉我的方向盤右轉我就要打方向燈那其實是錯誤的觀念那我也希望說這件事情因為這每天都在發生很多民眾都啞巴吃黃蓮說到的就算了嘛那有時候申訴也是"},{"start":23356.172,"end":23367.632,"text":"也是到了警察維持原判裁決所也是原則會尊重舉發單位啦好不好希望每天都有很多這樣的事情那我希望我們的交通部競速"},{"start":23369.966,"end":23391.048,"text":"研討會結束之後,我請我們交通部儘速的提供一些解釋函,最好是有一些入口的範例給地方所有的警政單位去參考,讓他們希望在執法上面有一致的標準。那後續可能我們交通部對於用路人,因為打方向燈最重要的是大家有一致的概念,才不會誤會前車打方向燈是什麼意思。"},{"start":23392.169,"end":23412.45,"text":"最重要的就是提示候車嘛所以當大家有一致的觀念那一致的執法的時候那我們打方向燈才是安全的也才不會出現許多的烏龍罰單好不好那就部長後續麻煩你那包括議員所後續他可能會提出一些方針指引那也是我們盡快的把它提出來好不好這一點好謝謝好那另外喔這個"},{"start":23414.639,"end":23434.711,"text":"下一個議題我問一下院長你應該有在操場跑過步對不對?是那你應該知道操場的一些規則跑步的規則跑步的人會在哪些跑道?會在跑步的人會在哪些跑道跑步?哪些跑道?對沿著操場的跑道?對他有1、2、3、4、5、6、7個跑道"},{"start":23438.117,"end":23455.352,"text":"跑步的人會在內側跑道啦越快的人會在最快的人會在最內側跑道然後次快的在內二然後內三那原則上外面的五六七八就是給一般的散步民眾使用這是一般的運動場的規定也不是規定啦就是大家的一個高度共識為什麼會這樣子規定"},{"start":23457.81,"end":23463.598,"text":"對,速度這件事情一樣才不會發生碰撞,這是非常重要的。 我也認同這樣的觀念,那當然運動場都是用這樣。 但是我們的道路上卻有發現在規範上面"},{"start":23475.253,"end":23496.108,"text":"就是說我們在運動場上面這樣規範的時候,我們不會去管他是大人、小孩、老年人,或者是我是瘦的人、我是胖的人,我有不同的跑道的規範嘛,對不對?我們就是單純用速度來規範我們要跑哪個跑道,但是我們的道路卻不是這樣子的規範,我們的道路很明確的就分汽車跟機車,但是我們的市區的道路,"},{"start":23496.989,"end":23509.776,"text":"的限速一般來說大概就是5050這個速度是所有機車幾乎都可以輕易達到的一個速度但是我們卻限制所有的機車他可能只能在最外側跟外二的跑道這是我們的交通規範裡面所訂定的99條那邊嘛"},{"start":23512.717,"end":23538.32,"text":"那所以說很多路權的機車路權團體都在提這件事情阿我們要提倡交通安全的時候我們是應該是用速度分流用方向來分流左轉彎的車靠左邊右轉彎的車靠右直行的車靠中間那如果說都是直行車的話呢你快車的時候要靠哪邊應該是速度跟方向的分流而不是用車種的分流我不知道因為部長您算是交通的素人阿好不好"},{"start":23538.86,"end":23542.464,"text":"我昨天有跟路權團體碰面過、也座談過,這個議題我們有討論過,所以這個部分沒有問題,我們也會輔導地方政府在進行機車的車道盡量減少。"},{"start":23561.087,"end":23565.089,"text":"大會主席江啟臣副院長各位列席官員大家好主席有請行政院左院長交通部陳部長"},{"start":23590.25,"end":23590.513,"text":"左院長陳部長請備詢"},{"start":23599.435,"end":23627.855,"text":"委員長好 委員長好 委員長好 委員長好首先恭喜部長能夠來 我想 剛才跟你講一句話 希望未來在台中地方市府海上所有的交通建設 大家可以密切的合作 讓台中海上的保溫能夠快速的提升 能夠衍接整個直轄市的交通狀態能夠往上的來成長 我覺得各位發表了"},{"start":23632.058,"end":23641.967,"text":"沙鹿要設站捷運通龍井發展新產業臺中大振興請教院長部長這個看到這個有沒有熟悉的感覺"},{"start":23646.544,"end":23650.245,"text":"這兩段文字我想這是2013年我們陳部長當時在參選立委時的政見這裏面有很多件事"},{"start":23662.409,"end":23680.969,"text":"人們現在遇到很大的困難第一就是我們台鐵海線班次一直無法增加受限的原因就是因為它是單軌那車次無法提升造成了班次少然後乘客意願低落的主要原因"},{"start":23681.73,"end":23705.635,"text":"那我在日前向交通部鐵道局詢問目前海線雙軌高架的進度﹖他的回答是113年6月23日含請臺中市政府回應修正報告書。那臺中市政府科證依國發會審查意見修正報告書在臺中市政府113年2月23日提報可行性修正報告給交通部。"},{"start":23707.089,"end":23721.52,"text":"三、10月29日部在報院續審。 國發會6月19日函送審查意見給交通部﹐每一次意見修正、補正、公文往返﹐花費的時間不只是時間﹐"},{"start":23722.961,"end":23741.002,"text":"按照現在通膨跟物價上漲的速度每一次預算都往上攀升那如果今天台中市政府再次提報修正計畫給交通部部再報院、院再交國發會、國發會又再提修正意見一次就半年了"},{"start":23741.85,"end":23768.339,"text":"一次往返這半年,這半年半年這樣到現在來,我每一次在總執行山炊事情,都是在為國家要節省預算,要希望這個交通的建設能夠加快速度。那今天院長跟部長我在這邊要請教你,有沒有更快的速度、更好的效率,能夠讓這個案子能夠盡速的核定,可不可以告訴我一個時間表。"},{"start":23769.629,"end":23785.043,"text":"好,報告委員,這件事情其實確實,現在台中市政府正在修訂計畫書當中,不過其實每次往返我也覺得這樣很浪費時間,所以我也有拜託我們的鐵道局,他們也確實也趕快去催促了台中市政府在8月2號、8月22號跟9月27"},{"start":23787.785,"end":23817.465,"text":"都喊請市政府要儘速的提供這個修正的報告書那目前為止市政府還沒提供來但是我跟委員承諾如果他提來了我們在布的這個程序上面我們會盡量來加速因為這也是長期我們在爭取的一個希望有的一個地方的建設那當時在甚至在胡志強市長在擔任市長的時候我就跟蔡其昌委員一起去爭取了可行性評估的這個經費那也當然過了很多年鄉親都很期盼交通部一定會來加速所以這一點您放心"},{"start":23821.327,"end":23839.735,"text":"海線雙軌高架目前經費中央負擔221億台中市府負擔177億如果再拖下去未來造價會更高此外烏日大慶捷運高架化這個部分這是我們補充你的選區給你替路告解這部分從2013年"},{"start":23846.277,"end":23855.084,"text":"到現在超過11年了一直在耽擱,我不曉得說中央到底誰在卡在卡什麼,為什麼這個進度都沒有辦法提前"},{"start":23855.765,"end":23877.644,"text":"那現在的程序一樣在今年的3月23日曾報行政院續審、續行審議。那國發會在6月19日又函送審議的審查意見又交給交通部。 鐵道局6月27日又函請臺中市府回應及修正報告。 所以我剛才說的,你給我回答的,這次我又跟你說"},{"start":23879.325,"end":23886.83,"text":"這個部分來來往往來來往往短短的3.7公里總預算才83億到現在還卡在中央"},{"start":23887.657,"end":23910.994,"text":"那如果說,上個會期我們也辦理會館考察,那現在到底是在卡什麼?你到底可以告訴我們說,你的臨來,保定你的臨來,我就當工嗎?這案件我就合定當工嗎?這個案子跟剛剛的那個海線雙軌高架其實是同一個案子,他們併在一起,所以我剛剛有報告過,現在我們的交通"},{"start":23911.534,"end":23911.835,"text":"交通部會加速"},{"start":23921.444,"end":23943.22,"text":"這個我們東北地區重要的,我們的鐵路建設、軌道建設,如果溝通上有問題、有困難,我願意說我們來召開一個中央跟地方的協調會議,那也請院長、部長,如果可以請你們來參加,讓我們把所有的問題都釐清,到底中央在卡?誰在卡?還是地方有什麼?"},{"start":23944.04,"end":23948.963,"text":"報告委員,如果這個是部長當年選舉提出的政見,那我想部長要再謹慎的去跟地方了解一下。因為他沒有當選,是不是地方的人士不希望他這麼做?"},{"start":23967.932,"end":23990.158,"text":"這十幾年齁 如果沒有大家這個彼此的 我跟你講 現在台中市政府卡在中央的款項 中央的核定跟補助 地方沒有辦法靠一己之力 台中市政府做不來 一定要有中央的幫助 所以我希望說我們院長跟部長能夠大力的來促成"},{"start":23991.178,"end":24012.427,"text":"接下來我再來提就是我們高鐵特區現在積極發展烏日高鐵特區然後將台中發展成會議及會展中心導入觀光、休閒、商務等進駐台中這部分在現在的高鐵有一個投資案投資金額超過260億開發面積超過15公頃"},{"start":24016.509,"end":24045.489,"text":"新建全國最大的購物商城,影城,五星級酒店,還有A級辦公大樓,購物中心的樓地擺面積超過9萬平,規模是臺中新光三列加上大圓擺的1.6倍大,臺北101的4.8倍,預計在115年第4季要完工,將會是全臺最大的百貨購物商城,但在這個美好的憧憬之下,我們臺中人最擔心的就是交通的瓶頸,"},{"start":24046.881,"end":24060.762,"text":"10月15日禮拜二我們江副院長也邀請部長率領交通部的團隊進行討論本席的辦公室也有例席參加那現在知道就是說一個月內要組成專案小組要針對國道一一增設交流道"},{"start":24061.502,"end":24064.163,"text":"有請部長告訴我預期的目標跟方向是什麼"},{"start":24085.024,"end":24112.558,"text":"預期的目標跟方向我們當然希望未來整個商城起來之後那個地方不要有交通打擊的狀況那目前當然所謂的交通的輸運剛剛委員有提到那邊蠻複雜的有高鐵有台鐵有捷運還有高速公路還有快速道路那當然重要的是市區道路在那個地方要連結出來也是很重要那目前台中市政府正在辦理就是高鐵特定區那個地方的整個交通的整體的規劃"},{"start":24113.658,"end":24133.039,"text":"那目前他們的案子其實蠻多有臺灣轉移 有沒有溝通?部長有跟市政府溝通嗎?跟市政府交通局做過溝通嗎?那一天我在江副院長那邊有說過了齁我跟你講現在你也知道 交通部會進入來協助我目前也已經折成了運研所、高工局跟公路局各單位大家一起參與跟他們一起來討論做一個專案的處理"},{"start":24135.846,"end":24153.298,"text":"現在高鐵特區光是上下班時間,車輛回堵到高架橋上,這是每天都發生的。未來,這個115年商城完工之後,那個會非常的困難,所以你們現在一定要儘早提早來啟動。那另外,我要再提醒,"},{"start":24154.269,"end":24180.672,"text":"除了王田這個國道1號烏日閘道的偵測部分那我相信我們高工局這個部分他有提出要偵測閘道的困難但是我希望交通部能夠盡以你們的專業然後來了解能夠來積極的協調如果能夠偵測這個烏日閘道的部分利用烏日區他的現有的一個道路的一個路廊"},{"start":24181.152,"end":24181.292,"text":"主席"},{"start":24191.805,"end":24211.861,"text":"因為烏日地區我們知道這10年來移入的人口超過1萬人那尤其都是集中在高鐵特區那原本交通的負擔就很大加上這個鐵道局的促參案未來會更吃緊所以中央千萬不要袖手旁觀中央能做的一定要先啟動這一點部長能不能做到"},{"start":24212.919,"end":24221.233,"text":"這一點我們已經要組專案小組了,所以這個部分委員不用擔心,江副院長有出面協調,這個部分我們交通部會來協助。"},{"start":24223.046,"end":24242.238,"text":"好,再來,剛剛提到的這個議題,鐵道建設,那所有的捷運,臺中的捷運都是,不管是北捷、高捷都經歷過這樣的陣痛期,都有點線面來形成這個捷運路網,那都是因為一開始的路線不完整,轉程的困難,民眾搭乘運不足,"},{"start":24243.098,"end":24263.371,"text":"所以現在台中除了綠線已經通車,藍線可行性評估核定,那目前正在進行的機場捷運,還有我們的機場捷運就是橘線,那捷運藍線延伸到太平,捷運紫線就是我們屯區環狀線,還有捷運綠線延伸到大坑及彰化的部分,"},{"start":24264.042,"end":24291.041,"text":"那我今天要說的是捷運局限的部分因為他串聯屯區霧峰然後臺中火車站最後來到臺中國際機場那我想了解一下目前的進度那依照我現在所知道的就是113年7月2號的時候交通部召開捷運的審查會原則上同意那請臺中市政府依審查意見修正目前呢臺中市政府正在修正當中"},{"start":24292.102,"end":24318.106,"text":"我們在跟施政委的交通局還有鐵道局在沙路會刊主要是希望能夠透過爭取局限的延伸段然後呢這個由台中機場延伸到沙路與臺灣大道的南線做銜接就如同剛剛本席前面講到的捷運要達到路網的程度才能提升旅客的乘車意願那未來這個路線看起來最長"},{"start":24318.947,"end":24319.228,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":24322.813,"end":24348.598,"text":"那原先規劃的捷運局限只有在台中火車站跟南線有交會所以希望能夠在海線也可以有交會處這樣可以擴大整個捷運的路網那以支線的方式讓捷運局限跟南線有更完善的一個轉乘機制能夠串聯台中港及台中國際機場就能夠形成更完整的打造捷運路網來發揮運輸的最大效益"},{"start":24349.398,"end":24351.22,"text":"兩段的延伸線,院長、部長可不可以支持?"},{"start":24373.944,"end":24388.776,"text":"報告委員,這個部分其實局限正在臺中市政府它的可研當中,所以延伸的部分其實可以放得進去,那如果有需要經費可研的部分,可簡訊研究的部分有需要經費,交通部也都支持。"},{"start":24389.569,"end":24404.638,"text":"所以我們在15號的時候我們副院長這邊召集的這個協商會議 院長部長部長當你們做成協議就是說把延伸的部分也一併提出納入這一次的一個一個會議一個修正那好那我想"},{"start":24406.718,"end":24434.754,"text":"院長部長如果支持我希望說這不是口頭上最主要就是行動行動的支持最重要那臺中市已經成為第二大城市那也是我們國冷藍奶北氧必經之地都要經過臺中那未來臺中的發展也是對整個臺灣有一個最臺中的發展對臺灣的幫助也最大臺中市每一年創稅給中央接近2000億"},{"start":24436.192,"end":24461.904,"text":"那但是中央不管透過統籌分配或者是其他的一般補助到回到台中的都不足大概在800億左右那這樣子的部分所以我們希望在任何的不管是尤其是交通建設不要大小眼我們看台中也好、高雄也好、台南也好不要把台中看作最衰末台中的比例永遠是最少"},{"start":24462.324,"end":24479.462,"text":"所以這部分我希望既然部長你容認了你能夠擔任這個交通部的部長那過去你的選區在我們大烏龍希望你能夠重視我們台中市的發展好 院長部長平常有在搭乘大眾捷運系統嗎"},{"start":24480.657,"end":24482.458,"text":"目前台鐵我是有承諾在過年之前"},{"start":24511.909,"end":24539.212,"text":"好,謝謝言委員。好,左院長還有陳部長,剛剛言委員質詢這些問題都對大台中未來的發展至關重要,所以請務必專案來處理,超前部署。那可以的話應該實地來了解一下,不要最後變五路打結,我們希望是五路財神,中央地方合作一起來解這個交通的結。"},{"start":24540.592,"end":24544.995,"text":"好,下一位我們請謝一鳳委員質詢。謝謝江副院長。我想要請卓院長、陳部長、還有公共工程的陳主委。卓院長、陳部長、陳主委,預備請。"},{"start":24574.011,"end":24575.876,"text":"建委好主委好"},{"start":24579.755,"end":24606.834,"text":"我想請問一下就是陳主委在宜蘭的鐵路高價化的時候你有提到就是他們總預算是501.29億然後中央補助395.57億地方是105.72億可是你因為就是他的財力分級是3到5級中間所以你降低了就是"},{"start":24607.614,"end":24626.628,"text":"依然的這個自籌款是不是?你能不能說明一下?跟委員報告,這個是關於土地取得的部分,用地取得的部分因為將來是屬於國營、台灣鐵路公司所有,所以我們評估用地由中央來負擔。"},{"start":24627.881,"end":24650.394,"text":"另外就是調度機場,機場將來也是調度場,調度場這部分也是跟用地取得一樣,是由中央來負擔。 那麼除此之外,那是因為他的財政等級是第4級,所以是按照這個非自償性的按照比例來分配。"},{"start":24651.872,"end":24678.134,"text":"那這是我們彰化縣的彰化市的鐵路高架那你看我們的用地費用是26.17億那我們非自償性的經費是48.3億那可以降低多少?非自償性是因為中央地方按照財政等級來分配阿你如果基於你剛才說的用地因為未來這些都是屬於台鐵的"},{"start":24680.08,"end":24682.802,"text":"在做綜合規劃的過程當中,你能不能說一下基地費可以省多少?"},{"start":24702.435,"end":24702.995,"text":"目前正在綜合規劃"},{"start":24728.274,"end":24730.275,"text":"我們的財政等級是跟宜蘭的一樣嘛,都是第4級嘛,在這個情況下為什麼會有這樣子的差別?"},{"start":24749.482,"end":24770.383,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為宜蘭的鐵路高架已經完成環評了,已經在進入細部設計,所以他馬上就要提綜合規劃。所以如果等到完成環評,然後進入綜合規劃的時候,那可以比照宜蘭的方式嗎?"},{"start":24772.062,"end":24798.403,"text":"我們這個可以另案協商,到時候我們會再來協商。你沒有承諾阿,陳部長你沒有承諾阿。每一個縣市的狀況不一樣。你能不能比照宜蘭的部分?是不是可以比照宜蘭的部分?我們會來協商,但是現在宜蘭也還沒定案。對對對,可是剛才那個陳主委說的,他已經協助了嘛。那未來如果完成環評,可以比照嗎?大家可以專案來協商阿。可不可以比照?"},{"start":24799.399,"end":24826.656,"text":"專案協商要看縣政府所提出的需求是什麼?還有今年李孟彥部長他來到彰化就是看76縣相關的延伸案的時候他提到了對於未來就是二林中科的用水用電是朝著一個開放的方向 左院長該不會現在交通部長換人了"},{"start":24829.167,"end":24831.528,"text":"是不是整個規劃就會改變?那他當初說用水用電"},{"start":24850.325,"end":24868.841,"text":"會朝著開放的方向,那可以爭取讓更多高科技AI的相關產業進到20中科,因為現在中科它的使用沒有超過一半,那未來"},{"start":24870.302,"end":24899.43,"text":"我們經過了76縣的延伸,它是怎麼樣子?銜接1號到3號以及61縣從北到彰化這裡都已經通車了嘛,是不是?那如果在這樣子的情況下造成這邊路網的方便,那是不是可以把20中科的用水用電也都放寬它的限制呢?可不可以?"},{"start":24900.356,"end":24918.355,"text":"目前各個地方縣市的首長都很積極在招商尤其歡迎高科技甚至是國際大廠去設廠那必須考慮到這個地區他自己縣市或是周遭鄰近地區整個能源的供應能不能配得上所有的快速的發展"},{"start":24919.716,"end":24941.857,"text":"張嬅縣是離岸豐電的主要的豐廠那也提供了非常多綠能相關的那在就這個部分的確對於張嬅縣民來說如果沒有高科技高科技最需要的綠電都是由張嬅來提供的時候那為什麼"},{"start":24943.725,"end":24968.518,"text":"獨厚其他的縣市,為什麼行政院都沒有考慮到彰化縣呢?行政院沒有不考慮到哪一個縣市?你認為為什麼沒有考慮到彰化縣呢?沒有不考慮到哪一個縣市?只要地方上能夠提出一個有充裕的土地,經過合理的開發,那麼也有充裕的水源,那麼能源的供應上,它也不會造成太大的負擔或是困擾。是不是因為換了部長?"},{"start":24972.02,"end":24996.609,"text":"過去李孟彥部長他就是彰化人,他說的時候對於彰化就特別的友善,現在因為我們陳部長他是台中人,所以在相關建設的考量上面就沒有對於彰化未來的規劃以及發展。"},{"start":24998.249,"end":24999.53,"text":"二零中科的用水用電"},{"start":25017.546,"end":25020.147,"text":"的地方要提出或是委員提出"},{"start":25033.635,"end":25052.129,"text":"行政院沒改組嗎?是不是?行政院現在沒有改組嗎?只有換了閣員啦!或是地方政府提出它有什麼樣的需求,我們會進行評估可行性怎麼樣做,以及配合整個周遭的公共建設設施怎麼來執行。這個是整套的,而不是說,我要給你方便,那就..."},{"start":25052.89,"end":25053.35,"text":"張嬅縣政府已經提出申請了。"},{"start":25082.79,"end":25084.151,"text":"再來就是我們今年是不是對於高鐵的用電有給予補助?"},{"start":25113.373,"end":25136.321,"text":"高鐵他應該沒有特別給補助沒有給補助嗎?他的用電有沒有漲價?跟大家都一樣所以他用電是有漲的嗎?是有漲的他用電有漲嗎?有,他有漲那所以高鐵的票價有可能要漲價嗎?報告委員,目前高鐵沒有在討論票價調漲的問題所以沒有?不會漲價?目前還沒有討論到這個"},{"start":25139.741,"end":25164.111,"text":"所以你的意思是高鐵的票價不會漲價嗎目前沒有討論漲價所以應該沒有漲價這個議題這是第一點那第二點我有提醒高鐵公司在他們營運的狀況還可以的狀況底下要考慮到自己要擔負這個公共運輸大家通勤的這個責任因為運輸本來就是一個通勤上面的責任必須要負起"},{"start":25165.336,"end":25169.957,"text":"高鐵票價會不會漲價?不會漲價嗎?所以你承諾未來不會漲價?我很難承諾多久的未來我不曉得還是委員您定義一下多久的未來?"},{"start":25189.935,"end":25217.305,"text":"目前不會因為電價的調漲而漲價,我能跟您這樣說。那未來票價會不會漲?未來,至少...今年票價會不會漲?你要定義嘛,今年票價會不會漲?對,今年不會漲。那明年會不會漲?你現在是保證今年不會漲?那明年會不會漲?我要看高鐵公司有沒有提出來要漲價的方案,如果他有提出來我們再來討論,但目前為止高鐵公司並沒有提出漲價的方案。"},{"start":25219.283,"end":25225.769,"text":"我們希望未來能不能再彰化,再增加班次呢?"},{"start":25227.014,"end":25248.938,"text":"因為我看到現在其實彰化的高鐵站已經越來越多人搭乘了。 在這樣的情況下過去李部長他今年來的時候有在田中站增加了高鐵的班次。 未來我們是不是可以繼續增加高鐵的班次呢?"},{"start":25249.298,"end":25264.165,"text":"高鐵班次因為我們有一個班次的整體調整所以全國各地其實都有增加班次那彰化如果委員希望再多增加一些我來去跟高鐵公司來商量這件事看他們可不可以研議一下看在彰化站我們再來增加班次"},{"start":25264.773,"end":25286.648,"text":"我希望我們政府的這個施政不應該要分縣市我們應該共同的協助就是所有各縣市那如果在於我們20中科的這個用水用電方面因為我們知道現在AI的需求很旺盛"},{"start":25287.449,"end":25287.489,"text":"是沒錯"},{"start":25303.553,"end":25318.221,"text":"那是不是能請卓院長可以大力的促成我們解除二齡中科用水用電的限制的這個問題呢?跟委員報告第一件事情您剛剛說的跟我的想法完全一致我們就是均衡台灣"},{"start":25319.221,"end":25333.799,"text":"各個族群均衡,各個地域均衡,各個產業均衡。你講的一致是說均衡台灣的部分一致,但是二齡中科的用水用電的限制放寬沒有一致,是不是?高鐵的部分它也是個營運的公司,它如果認為市場需要"},{"start":25334.56,"end":25336.881,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議臨時提案委員．完整會議臨時提案委員．完整會議"},{"start":25353.946,"end":25360.631,"text":"所以,就是說,你認為未來20中科的用水用電是可以開放的,是不是?要看是什麼樣的廠商,多少廠商要來,他能夠提供多少。"},{"start":25383.772,"end":25410.824,"text":"我們不夠用什麼方式來解決所以你認為二零中科的這個用水用電是可以開放的是不是我現在不敢這麼認為我看實際的需要有多少你剛才就說可以阿實際的需要我不知道你剛才就說可以阿怎麼現在又說不行實際有多少廠商要來他會用電用水用多少你為什麼會剛才就說可以阿只要提出申請你就大力協助嘛就可以嘛是不是只要提出申請你就大力協助嗎"},{"start":25412.005,"end":25415.867,"text":"我希望我希望在你下台前我們可以看到你大力的協助我們彰化縣用水用電以及我們交通建設好不好"},{"start":25433.618,"end":25458.171,"text":"你剛剛第一個條件我很不能跟你講時間我當然知道我就是希望啊在你下台前我們可以在彰化的交通建設在我們的用水用電都可以獲得行政院的協助啊好不好你快點讓我下台我就快點讓你承諾你的所以你是希望下台的是不是如果能夠讓政局穩定的話好謝謝謝謝院長好謝謝謝委員"},{"start":25464.236,"end":25475.687,"text":"謝謝卓院長。 報告院會現在在一場二樓旁聽席的是臺北市立大學城市發展學系的同學。 我們在此歡迎你們來立法院參訪。"},{"start":25480.26,"end":25494.244,"text":"發言會賴會員委員陳冠廷委員之質詢均以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登空報下一位我們請鄭振賢委員質詢主席好我想請一下卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢"},{"start":25516.488,"end":25535.8,"text":"院長好,NCC組織法其實在7月31日的時候總統府已經公佈了,明後來的時候其實還是用代理主委的方式去做這個事情,你覺得這個決策有沒有玩法弄權的嫌疑?"},{"start":25536.84,"end":25558.776,"text":"跟委員報告,我這個完全是一個必要的權宜措施,否則的話NCC在那個之後會變成無法執行它的政策跟業務,那這樣對國家的影響,對人民的影響會很大。 院長,因為我在想說,這個代理局這事情的時候,因為我知道說你們用的是NCC組織法的第16條,那某個部分它確實是有一些"},{"start":25561.018,"end":25585.569,"text":"可以解釋的空間可是我們也覺得這個代理主委這個確實有爭議因為我們確實也那個修正了這個法律可是我現在要講的是說就是溫伯中之前在暫代NCC主委的時候惹議那行政院這邊的說法是說依法辦理那麼NCC的前任委員林立雲跟王維京他們發文痛批NCC內部腐化"},{"start":25587.264,"end":25608.644,"text":"如為首長制,就溫伯中在10月7號的時候,受訪跳出來說他是依法行政,絕無不法。 院長你怎麼看這事情?從機關內部出來的人,對機關的批評,我想NCC包括代理主委跟所有的NCC同仁,甚至包括行政院都應該非常重視,如果屬實,"},{"start":25610.993,"end":25630.907,"text":"我聽到NCC在講依法行政的時候喊得這麼大聲我真的覺得非常非常的諷刺因為我覺得NCC根本就是打著依法行政的旗幹著違法亂政的事情我為什麼這麼講勒?"},{"start":25634.602,"end":25663.891,"text":"院長,你知道中天案在高等行政法院的時候判決下來,你有沒有看過這個證文、判決書?有。你看過判決書對不對?沒有很詳細,但我知道整個狀況。所以他的情況很清楚地講到判決處主文裡面就很清楚地講到說原處分撤銷。院長你知道這件事情嘛對不對?是。你知道理由嗎?"},{"start":25667.381,"end":25686.497,"text":"這個判決來來去去有的是針對程序上的,很少針對實質內容的,我知道這個狀況是如此。所以判決處文很清楚地講到原處分撤銷,那個莫某宗你已經進到院會裡面來,那個我不擋你上台可是你不要講話,我不擋你上台你不要講話,來。"},{"start":25688.098,"end":25716.076,"text":"那個在中天換照案的那個訴訟案判決書裡面第21頁 院長他很清楚的直接講到說違反換照審查辦法第11條第三項後段就未來6年營運計畫各審查項目之評分基準規定 形同改變執照之合法標準 容以造成該五個審查項目之決策事實基礎錯誤"},{"start":25718.021,"end":25728.947,"text":"而資訊不完全,足以影響所評,為審議不予換照之結論,無從推算回復,原處分自與法有違。﹖"},{"start":25735.37,"end":25753.918,"text":"原處分與法有違,很清楚喔,所以為什麼我剛剛聽到翁柏宗在講說他完全依法行政的時候,我真的覺得超級諷刺,現在高等行政法院完全透過他的判決書狠狠地打臉NCC,"},{"start":25756.175,"end":25769.668,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,院長你有什麼看法?我剛剛有請教代理主委,他說他現在NCC基於他的質詢,他已經在上訴當中,既然在上訴,那這個在法院當中還要做最後的這個決定齁。"},{"start":25774.511,"end":25795.838,"text":"我們絕對尊重這些法律的程序可是在高等行政法院當中的判決書上寫得非常非常的清楚院長我直接跟你講一下他很清楚講到了NCC怎麼樣子違法亂政109年11月的時候中天換照的時候"},{"start":25797.659,"end":25816.168,"text":"根據衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業深色審查辦法,它在107年就已經更改了修正的所有的評分標準。NCC在109年的時候還是用105年的標準來做審查。"},{"start":25820.407,"end":25841.198,"text":"院長這麼簡單的一個邏輯的狀態我嚴重的懷疑NCC是蓄意是公然違法我跟委員提醒或許法律上大家還是可以再進一步去研究 申請設立的深色的審查跟所謂換照是兩套不同的準則標準來進行的那不能把它混為一談"},{"start":25843.059,"end":25868.666,"text":"換照當中的時候他一樣用了一個這樣子的一個審查的一個標準是判決書裡面針對院長提的這部分也很清楚提到了行政規則他沒有辦法去逾越母法的部分 院長你剛剛我讓汪博東站在你旁邊就是覺得你對這事情可能不一定了解的這麼透徹所以我讓他站在你旁邊可是我不想要讓他透過麥克風來講話因為我覺得他的身份是有爭議的所以"},{"start":25871.465,"end":25885.516,"text":"院長我希望你在針對依法行政這件事情的時候能夠好好的去考量因為NCC很明顯的狀態他打著維持媒體自由的旗幹著"},{"start":25887.037,"end":25901.262,"text":"破壞新聞自由的事情那在這個狀態的時候呢我覺得這個禮拜二的時候我們提到了預算的相關問題提到了原民的一個禁法補償的部分"},{"start":25902.722,"end":25921.427,"text":"針對這個部分我這邊簡單講一下因為它還有更改的機會我們希望因為這兩個禮拜協商沒有成果和解飯也沒有成果下個禮拜還要繼續那我本來期待院長其實是可以說理論法的人那我們希望"},{"start":25922.287,"end":25937.897,"text":"在這個事情當中的時候 院長你要堅持住不要沉淪變成像NCC一樣打著依法行政的旗 幹著破壞違法行政的事情我們希望院長你堅持住這個部分好不好"},{"start":25938.177,"end":25959.452,"text":"我會很堅持 憲法70條憲法的理論還有預算法91條裡面的規定憲法70條這個部分是預算審進來送進立法院的時候我們在審的部分我們沒有辦法去增加它可是我們立法了之後你這邊本來就有依法編列預算的一個責任我在這邊還有一個點就是你對外是說"},{"start":25960.393,"end":25961.414,"text":"就是依照預算法91條"},{"start":25977.169,"end":25996.994,"text":"立法院在審視預算的時候,他要增加稅出的時候,要徵詢行政院的意見。我們現在針對立法的結果出來狀態的時候,你都完全不尊重的時候,我們希望,院長你這邊一定要真正的依法行政,不要沉淪變成像ACC。好,因為我這邊還有第二個問題我要問,就是"},{"start":26001.517,"end":26020.295,"text":"禮拜二的時候我講到桃樹苗大細股計畫那當時也提到了一個部分就是有關於才化法的一個修正那我提到了一個部分就是科學園區大細股計畫這邊的時候他納進去了大新竹輕軌這個計畫院長你知道吧"},{"start":26023.767,"end":26039.622,"text":"那知道這個計畫當中的時候我當時提到了一件事情因為整個財化法的發展過程當中新竹市創稅全國第三可是得到的配回率全國最低"},{"start":26041.229,"end":26055.789,"text":"新竹市平均每一個人貢獻的中央的創稅是65萬,全國最高,比台北市、新北市都高,可是我們配回率是全國最低。你當時提到了一件事情,就說你會用"},{"start":26056.71,"end":26079.203,"text":"一般性的補助給新竹市更多,對不對,我記得你當時是這樣回應。不是我回應,是行政院一直這樣在處理這些問題。可是我們看到的狀態並沒有,新竹市得到了一般性補助的時候,全國倒數第三,只比金門、馬祖高,比澎湖還要低。那這個部分呢,我為什麼特別提到這個情況。地方要提出需求,中央才能夠予以補助。"},{"start":26080.504,"end":26107.567,"text":"院長,所以我特別提到這個部分,我希望院長能夠去落實好久沒有大細股計畫裡面對於大新竹輕軌的一個主張。這邊有一個狀態,就是按地方上面他們去縮時攝影出來的結果的時候,新竹市去科學園區工作,大概平均每個人上下班要花兩個小時以上的車程。"},{"start":26109.352,"end":26137.899,"text":"那我們認為如果新竹市有比較好的交通運輸系統的時候不只是對在園區工作的工程師對大新竹的人來說是好事而且對於竹科產值可以再進一步的向上提升因為每一個工程師幾乎都發他們每天上班時間的四分之一在交通上面所以本席也利用今天這個機會的時候希望院長能夠"},{"start":26139.747,"end":26166.763,"text":"出手來協助大輕軌新竹大輕軌的一個落實那我想請教一下院長你知道現在新竹大輕軌最大的問題在哪裡嗎?新竹縣市之間還是要談出一個可行的方法我們才可以進行有效的可行性的研究跟評估那縣政府市政府應該已經在辦理這個可行可行報告可言報告的一個招標過程我所了解如此"},{"start":26167.503,"end":26168.904,"text":"報告委員﹚目前正在"},{"start":26194.525,"end":26222.856,"text":"新竹市政府在做可行性研究當中,那我們要等到明年的第一季,看他可不可以把可行性研究做完,報來交通部,那交通部該協助的部分都會協助。好,理解齁,院長我跟你提一下狀態齁,因為,大概新竹輕軌碰到兩個很大的問題,一個是沒有錢,所以我禮拜二特別提到財化法的問題,因為地方根本沒有財力去支應這樣子的一個重大建設,"},{"start":26224.198,"end":26253.106,"text":"第二個部分就是溝通的問題現在部長提到新竹市出來整合這樣子的一個可行性研究計畫我必須老實講喔院長你覺得一個跨縣市的一個可行性研究計畫大概需要多少錢看工程的難易度你直覺你覺得以新竹市你對新竹縣市一定熟嘛你對新竹縣市熟你覺得一個這樣的一個大輕軌的一個可行性研究你覺得大概需要多少錢"},{"start":26254.557,"end":26278.219,"text":"數百萬要要吧?數百萬喔?數百萬喔?做不起來,院長你真的不知道米價欸。9月份的時候新竹市政府用2200萬去做一個招標,流標,沒有人要來。因為它牽涉到的範圍非常的大,然後接下來預計要招標的費用大概要到四、五千萬。"},{"start":26279.48,"end":26305.774,"text":"然後我要特別提到因為新竹市政府的團隊跟新竹縣他們在今年3月初的時候拜會前副院長鄭文燦他找了交通部的鐵道局來希望交通部鐵道局他來整合新竹市縣市的一個網絡那當時新竹市政府說好他來做這樣子的一個配合先來做把這個招標動作把它弄出去可是現場他要求鐵道局補助"},{"start":26307.247,"end":26312.291,"text":"大新竹的輕軌對於解決大新竹地區的交通肯定是非常非常重要的那麼我們希望"},{"start":26331.568,"end":26338.852,"text":"交通部這邊能夠扮演起更積極的角色就像逃機一樣就是機場捷運是交通部這邊來做的就像基隆的捷運一開始起頭的研究評估都是鐵道局這邊做的所以我們希望"},{"start":26360.56,"end":26382.756,"text":"大新竹輕軌的時候也能夠比照辦理因為我們在110年曾經提過一個方案到交通部這邊來可是目前是依照113年3月27號的共識由新竹市政府在做理解 當時提出來狀態就卡到兩件事情因為竹科這個部分地方真的沒辦法去整合"},{"start":26383.876,"end":26407.687,"text":"因為他不只是新竹縣市的問題,他還卡到了新竹科學園區的問題。 所以我們希望院長能夠指示部長這邊,針對大新竹輕軌的時候能夠加把力,讓大新竹輕軌變成桃竹苗大細股計畫很重要的一個配套的一個設施。 如果能夠跨到苗栗區,因為"},{"start":26408.487,"end":26409.368,"text":"好謝謝鄭委員謝謝卓院長下一位我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":26444.1,"end":26449.423,"text":"謝謝 副院長有請卓院長還有交通部陳部長以及我們工程會的陳主委卓院長、陳部長、陳主委請備詢"},{"start":26463.567,"end":26476.26,"text":"委員好 院長好 院長 院長 本席昨天在經濟委員會有跟我們的那個陳部長討論到關於農業產業的問題 因為時間有限 那沒有辦法好好的討論 所以今天也延續來跟我們卓院長來繼續討論這個部分"},{"start":26478.522,"end":26504.9,"text":"那臺灣的農產品,現在有一個很嚴重的問題就是外銷,他們很簡單,他們不懂政治,所以只要把東西賣出去就好,那既然現在我們兩岸有出現一些問題,那在銷售上有一些小狀況,我想很多人就提到說,既然沒賣出去,我們來做加工嘛,我們來做加工,那我本時也看到現在市面上出現像鳳梨啤酒這樣的產品,我覺得讓產業來升級,這個也是一個不錯的方法,"},{"start":26506.14,"end":26534.188,"text":"那另外本土業者就跟本席反映到說其實現在他們壓力很大因為中國大陸進口啤酒到台灣來我想我們在這邊不是要鼓勵說要喝酒啦當然開車不喝酒這個我們一定要倡導不要酒後駕車不過每個國家都有自己的酒類文化像日本的Sake蘇格蘭的威士忌還有德國的啤酒我覺得台灣應該也可以結合我們豐富的農產品來推廣自己台灣的品牌的酒類嘛對不對"},{"start":26535.208,"end":26535.328,"text":"院長 院長"},{"start":26557.314,"end":26581.213,"text":"我們的釀酒現在民間釀酒也相當的蓬勃而且有好幾家的酒廠在世界的評比上也獲得了不錯的成績那如果正照委員所說的幫我們的農產品能夠結合下去那是我們的特色如果能夠往這個方向是好的不過昨天到了這個創新技術的博覽會鳳梨可以抽成纖維做成衣服做成帽子"},{"start":26582.054,"end":26610.723,"text":"恭喜是幸福啦對吧?對好,謝謝院長很正面的回應那我們回到今天我們的主題那,院長今天是交通組的質詢那有些問題本市在星期二的時候已經跟院長您討論過今天會繼續來討論後續希望從您的口中聽到好消息那我們今天工程會的陳主委也有在現場本市也希望工程會可以盡速的成立這次台東因為山脫颱風造成的這個強災的工程"},{"start":26612.003,"end":26630.412,"text":"讓臺東可以早日復原。 主委,我們在10月11日,我帶著交通部次長,還有原民會副主委,還有工程會同仁,前往臺東的災區勘災。 我相信同仁應該有跟你回報這些情況。那這次的災情對臺東傷害非常大。 我們初估的預算重建大概要花超過5億。"},{"start":26632.675,"end":26654.195,"text":"臺東縣作為一個財政五級的窮縣市,相關的災後預備的經費本來就不多,我們急需中央的奧援。本席有兩點請院長還有主委可以來允諾。第一,就是相關公共工程重建的所需資源,中央一定要來協助。第一,災後搶修搶險的工程要省力要快,我們希望工程會能夠在11月點,"},{"start":26655.536,"end":26673.834,"text":"十一月底以前完成相關的審計加速我們災區的重建。 院長、主委,台東的災民是基台中央的關注。 中央最有效的關注是資源的預注。 我相信資源只要到位,臺東的災區能夠早日重建就是對臺東最好的關心。"},{"start":26677.186,"end":26702.378,"text":"報告委員,那麼歷次颱風的災損,那麼工程會都會發函給各縣市政府,那麼針對公共設施的損害,那麼強災強險的部分,各縣市政府如果災損金不夠用,那麼他可以整個鄉鎮公所報起來說報行政院,行政院公共工程委員會協調各部會有的必要去現場"},{"start":26703.439,"end":26706.061,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":26720.708,"end":26721.748,"text":"阿對台東印象是什麼?"},{"start":26721.748,"end":26721.888,"text":"非常好"},{"start":26748.496,"end":26750.362,"text":"三位有沒有體驗過台東的慢經濟?"},{"start":26757.407,"end":26785.243,"text":"這是一個非常適合在那邊享受生命的地方如果院長、部長、諸位你們沒有去過的話本席建議你們好好的體驗因為這是屬於臺東的多元民主的這個慢經濟那臺東的觀光已經不是早期人家說的好山好水好無聊我們現在走的是叫做在地的體驗那我們會透過一些大地藝術結像是透過藝術家結合在地人文地景的這個結合讓旅客們能夠感受到當地特別的"},{"start":26785.663,"end":26810.971,"text":"文化,這個就是當年賴總統推動的這個地方創生,那讓我們來台東的UK,我們感受到台東特殊的文化,我想讓台東要體驗這樣的觀光體驗,最重要的是什麼,交通要通嘛,你交通要通嘛,但是從零四零三地震以來,我們台東花東的交通命脈就打結,那迎來觀光客變得非常困難,我們交通三不五時就回去,"},{"start":26812.605,"end":26815.766,"text":"本期這邊有幾點訴求來替我們台東的鄉親要跟院長、部長、主委來請命"},{"start":26843.342,"end":26868.849,"text":"零四零三地震之後我們北圍鐵路跟蘇花公路只要遇到大雨就會發生土石流交通中斷那我想地震之後地貿都有了很大的改變我講政府應該要有新的因應措施嘛那就本期我拿到的這些資料這些地震相關的資料我們台鐵有委託一個那個台鐵委託這個顧問公司這個核定的一個叫做什麼"},{"start":26869.549,"end":26893.1,"text":"鐵路邊坡養護手冊完成邊坡分級及精進分級。部長你知道這個計畫嗎?這個應該是邊坡安全的鞏固。對,對,對,很長的名字,很長的。部長知道這個計畫嗎?欸,知道。部長你知道這是110年的資料嗎?已經,這是111年的,經過大地震之後,我們交通部有沒有重新來做評估?"},{"start":26894.397,"end":26923.005,"text":"如果沒有的話本席要趕快整個編撥的告警系統我們也有重新的檢討而且建置新的整個告警系統這個要趕快重新再評估整個第一次第一報還有整個安全的調查本席這邊也要強調我們政府現在要趕快規劃我們怎麼樣改善我們北回、鐵路還有蘇花公路像是你是不是要改道、改線或者叫新建民隧道甚至我們蘇花改要趕快的來加速進行除此之外本席也要"},{"start":26923.854,"end":26931.703,"text":"要求我們教安部在災害發生之前要趕快做好預防性的一些措施像是你的接駁運輸規劃"},{"start":26934.332,"end":26963.589,"text":"部長氣象局是在林管轄底下嘛你可以第一時間掌握第一手的資料你也可以依照氣象局給你的資訊來針對幾個容易癱瘓的路段做預防性的措施做疏散嘛報告委員這一次在颱風之前的兩天我們就已經開始開會在討論這件事所以其實該做的準備都有做準備那當然有些地方有癱瘓那所幸沒有造成什麼傷亡所以這個部分是我們有盡量在防治了啦"},{"start":26963.677,"end":26964.858,"text":"有時候颱風來的時候,空運也會停,海運也會停。"},{"start":26986.477,"end":26990.339,"text":"院長,這個部分本是要請院長督促江部要改進。我們可以以後發生的事情,我們是怎麼行政?我想這個民眾會很有感啊。 院長你是認同這件事情?"},{"start":27014.202,"end":27035.922,"text":"對,當然這個很多的風災,如果我們這個預警預告的系統能夠很準確的話,事前該做的事情其實都是暗部就行。我們可以先預防嗎?我們可能會落下,我們車上準備好嗎?我們可以先做這個準備,是不是變化先好?這次颱風來的時候就已經在啟動整個海空的這個備援系統。這次南文縣也同樣發生一樣的情況。"},{"start":27040.188,"end":27040.868,"text":"臺北、臺東單程車票多少?火車票?"},{"start":27059.879,"end":27070.627,"text":"一旦蘇花北匯中斷,我們先不要講飛機,民眾從台鐵搭火車到高雄,再搭高鐵到台北的費用是多少?1900元,將近兩倍。"},{"start":27076.127,"end":27101.219,"text":"本市要強調從0403地震之後只要一道大雨,蘇花北回中段就會變成常態。那之前我們都有跟交通部來反映,要求趕快來協調。那交通部每次給我的回覆就是說,臺北到花蓮有加強,臺東呢?他說臺東有啦,但是因為那大城市有背城,還有崗位,所以我們不應該請假啦。部長你知道花蓮飛台北市多少錢嗎?"},{"start":27102.401,"end":27116.842,"text":"一千七,你知道台東飛台北是多少錢嗎,飛機票?兩千五,你如果是跟機票寫相,我相信大城市不會是這樣子的數字啦,對不對?我想我們未來政府數據,數據不能看表,要去看"},{"start":27118.985,"end":27123.788,"text":"臺東縣是一個產業比較單一的縣市,我們民眾普遍說都不是這麼高,本市這邊要求,未來因為災害所增加的交通成本,要由中央來負責協助負擔。"},{"start":27141.547,"end":27164.404,"text":"那最後我們在討論臺東交通離島的問題之前我要在這邊公開跟我們部長說聲謝謝回應我在委員會提到要動長臺鐵車票的這個提案那公開表示我們明年春節前臺鐵不會漲票價這部分我要感謝保定也跟你贊許啦齁那我想不過還有一群人他沒有辦法被照顧到就是離島的居民"},{"start":27167.355,"end":27187.37,"text":"委員長這個畫面有沒有很熟悉?我們第一次這事就先講到,四個月前我們質詢的時候提到,地道南嶼的班機因為氣候影響沒有辦法正常起降,我想過了四個月了,我想交通部你應該有一個明確的做法,是不是可以請部長來說明一下,未來要怎麼做?你說機場的部分嗎?飛機沒有辦法正常起降的問題。"},{"start":27188.463,"end":27207.252,"text":"有時候遇到那個大風真的是沒有辦法,但是在工程上如果可以加強的部分我們其實都會來做。民航局目前針對蘭嶼的機場也正在做加強當中。你說你們的方式是,邁進的方式是什麼?你說機場不能飛的時候嗎?飛機不能正常起降的這個問題。"},{"start":27209.529,"end":27211.31,"text":"謝謝部長部長還是對台東的交通的努力我們也是要謝謝"},{"start":27238.243,"end":27259.129,"text":"院長,我們去年台東機場終於跑到完成的整建,允許大型的客機可以起飛,像B738或A32都可以起降。我們今年在8月在台東縣政府努力下,我們也迎來了第一次越南台東的包機直航,而且在10月份會再追加4次的架次。"},{"start":27260.356,"end":27279.528,"text":"那我知道,其實蔡政府實際投資了很多的經費在做我們整個停機坪跟滑行道的這個整建,那但是我想要問的是說,我們工程完成了,那這麼長的時間沒有使用,我們台東機場的軟硬體可不可以跟得上?坦白跟各位報告齁,"},{"start":27281.173,"end":27308.406,"text":"我每次搭飛機的時候都覺得我們的空橋是裝飾品因為從來沒有用過要不是這次包機我不知道我們的空橋還是好的那我想未來我們台東會越來越多的這樣國際觀光客來台東玩那我們要為了要迎接更多的觀光客我們相應的軟硬體要跟得上那相關的設備改善的部份交通部也要來補全院長讓我們一起把台東的觀光做大讓來台東的旅客更多爭取更多的觀光客好不好"},{"start":27311.441,"end":27330.142,"text":"我們一定努力上次我們約好去台東結果因為颱風來我剛剛還在談就近的時間趕快再到台東去也許不一定看到什麼樣的現場但就未來的發展我們有一個共同的印象共同的影像這樣我們來共同的來努力會比較有聚焦"},{"start":27330.783,"end":27345.36,"text":"謝謝院長,院長臺東是一個,臺東是一個德國的小社會,我常常覺得臺灣何其有幸擁有臺東,因為這裡不僅族群多元,風景美麗,物產豐富,而且人民非常的純樸,"},{"start":27346.681,"end":27363.693,"text":"那再次也要拜託政府不要因為臺東的人口較少而忽略它。我們希望能夠公平地對待臺東,讓臺東擁有更完善的交通系統,讓我們可以發揮臺東特有的慢經濟的實力。謝謝部長,謝謝院長,謝謝我們主委,謝謝。謝謝黃委員,謝謝卓院長。法院會休息5分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":27754.329,"end":27758.391,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會,請陳委員操明質詢。副院長好,首先有請我們行政院我們的左院長。請左院長備詢。"},{"start":27787.376,"end":27807.35,"text":"陳委員長好,我今天有很多問題要請你來當忙,來改觀苗栗縣幾個重點交通的問題。我今天對你的主題,一定有你稍微看過,苗栗的牡蠣值得中央大力的支持。"},{"start":27808.567,"end":27829.015,"text":"我這個議員說了幾十年,但是中央一直沒有改進,尤其是苗栗縣是財政被管控的一個縣市,它財政屬於第5級。我提這個意思,不跟你說苗栗縣在95年到182年,它一定替中央創稅4,147億元。"},{"start":27832.916,"end":27845.779,"text":"但是我們在中央的補助,一般性的補助款和同仇分配款,隆重提2,022億,這等於苗栗縣上午中央有2,125億。那我舉例了,一樣5級的財政縣市,一定律師會解決。我們的嘉義縣,"},{"start":27859.806,"end":27872.953,"text":"以95年至82年,中央的創稅才963億,但是中央的補助,包括一般同仇婚配款、家農總、一天兩千四百三十億,"},{"start":27874.553,"end":27892.257,"text":"黨議帖中央結一帖一千四百六十七億,阿賓農管,農政把中央竄稅的時候,95年到112年,兩千六百二十七億,但是他跟中央拿了三千五百八十九億,黨議中央給予九百六十七億。"},{"start":27895.078,"end":27919.337,"text":"這個問題在哪裡呢?就是我們的財政收支花分了,統籌分配管,財政越低的時候你創惠,他沒有多分給你,反而幫你扣下來。所以我再強調這個問題,就是希望你的中央可以了解這個問題,不管現在財政都被控管,我們財政非常的困難,非常的絕境。"},{"start":27920.634,"end":27940.902,"text":"這裏有一個觀念,就是我們地方越發表越在創造,我們越搬越少,所以我今天站在這裏,因為我參與你代表的總經理三十名議員,我了解所有地方家的事情。所以一而再、再而三,我都向總統拜託正視這個問題,跟美國的交通建設盡量跟我們協助幫忙。"},{"start":27945.564,"end":27961.072,"text":"所以在這,我今天有提出幾條。 也希望我在30幾年的參政理、民意代表生涯之中,在這個任期內,我能把這幾條改革,我剩下,這樣我對我鄉親就有改善。 因為時間的關係,我就簡單說,但是我要省一分給那議長拜託拜託全力向我們廟的管道幫忙。"},{"start":27970.197,"end":27981.668,"text":"大西湖計畫來,去搞通的聯絡網,把它完成的話,我們會變成非常有希望、非常有五飯店的一個非常重要的一個宣誓地。"},{"start":27982.794,"end":28003.864,"text":"我第一要說的,我為三者先說,這個鄉鎮才7000多人,前不早撐後不早頓,經過我這幾年一直在地方上把他重要道路去把他開闢。 現在有兩條,就是稀有無稀的合體公共第四期,希望中央給我們全力支持。"},{"start":28004.693,"end":28027.629,"text":"那施政商院長在徐維鄉的時候的幫忙很大,把主要的命脈一直直線的打通。 現在這第四期完成起來,這個給徐維鄉,他聯絡好幾個銅鑼科學園區,跟未來賀龍的科技產業園區,這是盡世界所在,但是交通不方便,廠長說實話。 這點,我們新人的保證行要一定。"},{"start":28032.635,"end":28032.815,"text":"臨時提案委員．"},{"start":28047.677,"end":28072.138,"text":"藍絲、白絲只擔心到一邊的行政院,為南部現在要代替的行政院,但是為北部要進來的事務有困難,所以我現在是白絲藍絲,這點大概是規劃,從規劃好一定解散起來鄉親幫忙錢,這個才是做公德的事情,這樣好嗎?這樣你看到沒有?"},{"start":28073.519,"end":28091.684,"text":"報告委員,這個南出跟北入這兩個之間,現在還有個別不同的問題,尤其是北邊的部分,它是山坡保育地跟生態調查困難比較多,南邊現在開始有一些進行研究,但是也有一些地形上的限制。 我有跟第三名高公子去,他說這個計畫可以,這是我們親自會談的,我們了解地方,安裝進行。"},{"start":28097.146,"end":28099.949,"text":"這是苗栗縣的民主勝地,在這裡你們的票量贏了很多,是通宵產業生命之路。"},{"start":28119.619,"end":28144.502,"text":"阿通宵鎮現在慢慢的沒落,我就要趴邊,阿顧中間的票都贏1點而已。 雖然心有未甘,但是我還是全力以赴把地方建設出來。 就是現在苗栗縣政府跟你們已經規劃費落了,就是銅鑼科學院要趴一條下來跟通宵,才能幫助地方產業的發展。 你大家看這個內容,我希望,"},{"start":28145.143,"end":28172.551,"text":"一條一條是很重要,而且這地方真的很重要,你院長下來保證下來,你來看,我這個都是很有前瞻的,我不會去拿奪樓來做認證的。我所有建議都是地方上實際需要,別人覺得很困難,我都把它承擔起來,把它推動。再來,這個萬利部長,你在台中你也知道,"},{"start":28177.62,"end":28189.803,"text":"這個做了臺61線溪濱完異的交流道,這個如果願意交流道下來,如果不小心通過的時候,還要考慮30分鐘才能得到完異,這個是你們中證。"},{"start":28194.922,"end":28204.811,"text":"議長這條要完成了,你們那邊的私利很穩固,我打了很久都打得很辛苦,但是怎麼困難我都要做,這樣保證你不會用手手的啦,議長。"},{"start":28206.633,"end":28230.375,"text":"你還要跟我答應,這跟我們免配額款,我們的財政很困難。希望這邊說盡量免配額款,還是盡量調低配額款,這事情我們都要做。可行性研究有送過來,我們目前正在研究。你應該稍稍知道這個。我知道,他們目前有送過來,我們正在研究。你稍稍知道,你補充工會到我們,一定你交代就會全部動員,好不好?"},{"start":28231.997,"end":28237.304,"text":"這條框的迷你就全力完成,大概你們再修改一下就完成。"},{"start":28244.319,"end":28272.474,"text":"你每一個到最後那一句都是可以同意免除地方配合款,阿剩下的不知道多少?有一點免啦,有一點減啦,我們是很怕病,我們是玩弄的。真的,你不用這樣想法,我這個財政訴訟,為什麼我開始要講這個,就是要你了解情形,不然我站在這裡拜託你,我也覺得很民主。我不是站在這裡,我是覺得有道理我才會跟你講,沒有道理我不亂開口。"},{"start":28274.776,"end":28286.583,"text":"你稍微幫我講一下嘛,譬如要20%你說10%我們就很心滿意足,我們就感恩戴德啦,這樣你不會撐的,不可以這樣,你們在補助一些鄉鎮、縣市,你們都這樣擠得大大筆就落了。"},{"start":28294.568,"end":28306.038,"text":"那個財政的準備就是在準備這個狀況,我一定衡量中央的能力,在能力許可之下,委員優先順序,我們來考慮。好,我希望在我訓練這幾條人改觀,再來先到議事連線,第一期,第二期,"},{"start":28315.209,"end":28324.341,"text":"第二期我已經完成了,第一期的酒地現種20噸而已,都要大台車、拖拉車、貨櫃車都要農路去做,要考慮很久。第一期我們有補助3.07億你跟我們議長有關,這條要改觀"},{"start":28333.713,"end":28346.368,"text":"委員在說的是二期,二期我們在等地方來送可行性評估的補助申請,他們來我們幫忙。我先講,他們現在在做結尾上過了,你們幫我支持,當然有些在進行了,以前已經做了,我就不說了,我只是感謝你們有給我們地方做事情。"},{"start":28354.218,"end":28380.419,"text":"臺七十二線就是西濱快速道路,它交交案已經核定了,現在積極進行,因為在這五千年道大溪谷之外苗栗三個地點都跟這條路有息息相關,希望一定幫助一下,保證年輕人幫助一下,如期如止完成,好不好?這當中一百八十幾個,可能你們要追加了,要一點資質,這要照顧預算,再來,"},{"start":28386.681,"end":28397.428,"text":"提到自行車 喔 不過一定 齁 您的補充大家都很懊惰 兼備去到那裏 大家就說我全力支持 現在整個補充 四個補充 要我給你列名嗎 經過林佳龍部長"},{"start":28404.11,"end":28415.396,"text":"王國材部長、李孟彥鎮長,現在看我們年輕人沿途的陳彥博,不是陳彥博,經過四個部長,現在就看我們這個人部長,你在這記錄,你應該有參加這個會議。這90人,我不知道一定有。"},{"start":28426.042,"end":28430.844,"text":"臺鐵公司正在修正計劃,10月底之前會送來交通部,他們的價位如果送來,我們的速度會..."},{"start":28455.616,"end":28456.637,"text":"他10月底會把計畫送來交通局。"},{"start":28487.363,"end":28509.569,"text":"高教化我剛剛好像講錯了那個72線的話72線就是快速道路跟我們連接西濱快速的高教化跟國道山在轉向不夠預定兩條的"},{"start":28514.293,"end":28528.105,"text":"國道1跟國道3沒有連結入網,只有苗栗縣。 如果這個台72線你們已經合訂了,會公告了,說準備要來啟動。 現在看起來還有一些問題,這條件重要,聯絡道路。 聯絡著..."},{"start":28537.554,"end":28547.282,"text":"他接國道1號跟國道3號還有一些問題啦,那個問題就是說距離上一個或下一個交流道太近啦,我們來超過2公里才可以講,但是他都差不多1.2到1.5公里而已,距離有比較近一點嘛,這個部分我們繼續來討論看要怎麼克服啦好不好?"},{"start":28567.683,"end":28568.303,"text":"十三縣銅鑼及三越河"},{"start":28596.621,"end":28616.798,"text":"那個火車站的一個拓寬的工程,我們現在轉向的台13線都四線道,只有這兩個地方還是兩線道,這有發生車禍都幾個變了,今天來公路那個交通部都說好,我們前例要改善,我等到幾個頭門。"},{"start":28618.459,"end":28647.394,"text":"那個保證你這裡給我完成,我這個白頭髮就會變成黑頭髮,這裡都給我們改變,這樣好嗎?我是講真的齁,這個都很實際的問題,然後時間快要到了,你把他打下來齁,這個台西縣縣里漁港的服務區這點已經會進行了差不多,好像公路總局有一點意見,就給我們改選再來。"},{"start":28649.837,"end":28678.337,"text":"阿那個若日大道,那個很漂亮,你來照相的時候,這邊要擴大一個服務區,這地方是我們島小港,很漂亮,很漂亮的地方。這在北三端貢天宮的,會有那個大橋,在那個附近而已喔,好嗎?再來,好玩腳,這有地進步了,還有一些要臨島小港,一些路線要打通。阿我對這要偶然誠懇的拜託,"},{"start":28679.653,"end":28689.139,"text":"我們的卓院長跟陳部長跟我們加油一下,開始call in啦。 談到結晶,阿沒本就晶,再恆久,再用晶都讓你們關注。好,謝謝。 謝謝陳委員。 謝謝卓院長。 報告院會。"},{"start":28708.115,"end":28719.935,"text":"現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是臺北市大同高中的同學我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪接下來請吳啟明委員質詢"},{"start":28750.217,"end":28758.524,"text":"主席,議會我們的貴賓,請我們左院長以及交通部部長。 左院長還有交通部部長備詢。委員好。"},{"start":28770.15,"end":28795.722,"text":"委員長好、副長好、委員長辛苦了。 我們的新的執政團隊來到第二個會期了。 那台灣各項的經濟指標也都有突破性的表現。 今年的IMD的競爭力也排名全球第八。 我們也超越了美國、日本、韓國、中國、台灣各項的公共建設也逐漸的完成。 本席在這邊也給予肯定。"},{"start":28796.863,"end":28807.689,"text":"但院長臺灣目前面臨一個非常嚴重的問題就是詐騙還有毒品的氾濫首先我們都針對詐騙的問題跟院長來做討論從警政署的數據來看去年的詐騙案件數量37000多件那比前年增加了8000多件"},{"start":28818.427,"end":28837.869,"text":"那投資的詐騙案件增加了5000多件那今天刑事局召開記者會打擊詐騙方面政府破獲的詐騙集團有1000多件那不法所得來到71億那投資詐騙乃是民眾財產損失的第一名那本市認為政府應該"},{"start":28839.33,"end":28839.59,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":28862.961,"end":28882.446,"text":"談到詐騙,我們感同身受,也謝謝大院通過了打詐的新釋法。在新的這個釋法通過之後,我們還有19個執法必須要通過。我已經要求各相關的部會,緊速地把19個執法,讓它在最短的時間內也能夠如數地通過。"},{"start":28883.546,"end":28903.938,"text":"四個大的詐騙的打詐的法律加上19個執法這部機器才能整個動起來動起來之後我們第一個我們會提高刑責我們可以溯源到打詐的源頭我們可以對平台這些不使廣告的平台要求他落地要求他負責"},{"start":28904.997,"end":28932.279,"text":"我們有更多的力氣我們可以去準備一些科技增防的設備器具來針對這些詐騙集團所以這樣下來之後我認為我們現在開始在所有的執法完備之後我們會有更有力氣來面對這些那這個打詐的數字我們現在每天在打詐的這個儀表板上面都會呈現出來他呈現的是比較多因為我們對於計算統計的方式我們是如實的呈現但實際上"},{"start":28933.857,"end":28957.157,"text":"主觀的感受跟實際上的受害是不一樣的有的他認為我被騙了一千萬事實上他沒有被騙只是有人在騙他但是我們也把他放進去就讓大家知道詐騙、橫行是社會一個事實國際也是如此那現在我們手上有這個法律的利器我們充足人員充足設備一定要在最短的時間內跟詐騙集團再做一次最大的宣戰"},{"start":28957.918,"end":28987.045,"text":"好謝謝謝謝謝謝院長因為詐騙這在國人的心目中大家都是非常厭惡所以這個我們的所有的程序上一定要速度一定要快好謝謝那再來就是針對毒品毒品我看這幾年年齡層的下降很多青少年吸食毒品的狀況那我們針對我們現在要來重視現在新北市就發生了兩起毒架"},{"start":28987.945,"end":28999.77,"text":"尤其三重分級跟土層分級,員工信職都是在晚上執勤勤務時遭到獨駕、惡意開車衝撞不幸信職,令臺灣人感到非常不捨。"},{"start":29003.692,"end":29026.565,"text":"那我們去年在立法院三讀通過刑法明確獨駕認定的標準貫徹對獨駕行為是零容忍的政策但我們現在發現獨駕的問題不單只增加行者就能以賀止有許多不同種類像新興的毒品出現有兩起這兩起的案件都是使用俗稱傷屍煙彈"},{"start":29030.154,"end":29055.903,"text":"以及依托彌子目前這次毒品都列為三級毒品那光是這半年就有三級員警遭受到毒價撞死的案件發生以目前造成社會性的危險性以及成癮性患難的程度將他本席是提議是不是把他提為二級毒品請院長這邊來支持"},{"start":29058.346,"end":29068.178,"text":"我們非常痛心援警因為執行公務因公殉職我們一定給予最好的一些撫恤但是更重要的是針對這些毒品"},{"start":29069.307,"end":29096.718,"text":"從它的製毒、販毒、運毒等等我們做有系列的管控那毒品是必須經過毒品審議委員會來把它分級分類那伊多米子前不久我們把它列為第三級的毒品也是第四級的禁制藥品那現在如果它要做一個更動的話也必須經過審議委員會但是無論如何我們面對這些新興的毒品相當的氾濫什麼咖啡包、彩虹包、彩虹菸等等"},{"start":29097.658,"end":29121.38,"text":"會到青少年造成很大的誘惑所以我們在幾次檢警掉線的整個通力的防堵當中我們都已經把這些新的毒品跟它的這個充斥社會的方式都做了相當大的研議未來我們希望能夠朝這個方向在有法令以及毒品分類快速的進行的情況底下我們希望檢警掉線能夠負起更多的責任"},{"start":29123.372,"end":29140.5,"text":"對,謝謝院長,是希望說能把它提升為二級毒品,這樣不然外面這個毒品,新興的毒品是真的非常地氾濫,這一點都值得我們去探討。 然後再來就是有關於毒品存放的問題,"},{"start":29141.687,"end":29159.316,"text":"我跟院長來討論一下因為本市也是調查及後案毒品處理流程的監督委員的顧問目前了解司法機關查獲的數量逐漸增加就今年5月23新竹市警察局跟破獲種子大麻"},{"start":29160.136,"end":29185.647,"text":"致賭工廠事件查扣大麻4519株, 也是目前偵破有史以來最大的大麻溫室。 因此吊牙籍持續在空間不足的存放, 毒品證物情形發生,光是近年來入庫統計數量逐年增加, 都有賴於司法同仁加強的查緝打擊不法。"},{"start":29186.227,"end":29188.088,"text":"沒錯,調查局已經在今年的年初"},{"start":29210.794,"end":29210.854,"text":"對,就盡量向"},{"start":29241.801,"end":29259.372,"text":"這麽龐大的大碼就直接來做銷毀就不用再入庫那這樣也減輕我們一些同仁他們的辛勞謝謝好那院長你先回座好了我跟部長來討論一下我地方的建設好你先回座好部長針對建築機械"},{"start":29266.397,"end":29282.276,"text":"公懲重機械,因為我們都知道有內政部編類編管範圍,因為臺灣地理環境的原因,因此遇到重大的風災、地震相關的天災,他們都要投入救災的行列,可見他們對國家實質上的貢獻。"},{"start":29285.96,"end":29295.164,"text":"本席在上個會期也說過他們需要一個合法的停放的空間,但本席召開多次的會議,邀請內政部、交通部、經濟部、農業部相關的單位討論。"},{"start":29298.75,"end":29314.462,"text":"發現都找不到任何一個負責的主管機關最後會議有幾個部會他們都是一致的推擠的我們交通部這邊來負責教委四合因為他們有輪子那是不是也拜託院長"},{"start":29315.723,"end":29315.903,"text":"主席"},{"start":29332.074,"end":29336.718,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":29356.38,"end":29369.708,"text":"他們自己的土地但是土地過去都是沒有一個輔導單位,但是變成他們都是要面臨被開罰,所以這個問題是不是由部長來做說明?"},{"start":29371.756,"end":29395.893,"text":"報告委員 過去一直沒有主管機關那交通部也沒有接下來的原因是雖然他有輪子但是他算是重型機械那比較有相關的是因為他大部分是在做營造的工程所以跟營造業是比較相關的所以過去的這個交通部也沒有把它列為是汽車因為一般的汽車像剛剛委員在說的停車場對我們來講的定義是停放不一定是停車因為他不是車"},{"start":29397.193,"end":29405.098,"text":"雖然說他做營造的比較多這個機械是做營造比較多理論上應該是內政部的營建署可能他們會相對有一些關係那不過停放的問題可能大家就覺得有裝輪子可能跟交通部有關係但沒有關係"},{"start":29423.47,"end":29443.419,"text":"委員有說11月15日我們要來開一個會那我會請交通部的同仁大家先彙整各部會的意見之外就是說相關的因為他們應該有工協會相關的工協會的意見我們也會彙整起來然後11月15日大家來開會再來討論這個未來看要怎麼處理他的停放的問題"},{"start":29444.551,"end":29466.987,"text":"好的好的謝謝謝謝部長還是部長比較有擔當因為這是從以前到現在你看啊任何的風災任何的災害都是需要用到這種機械包含我們現在捷運包含你現在蓋大樓也都是要用得到那用得到他們的停放的位置又有問題"},{"start":29468.728,"end":29492.721,"text":"這是全國性,所以變成他們也是很無奈,所以在去年來我這邊陳情,我也跟他開過兩次協調會,所以我才要拜託部長,是不是能扛起這個我們來召集會議,由交通部來做召集好不好?好,我們就11月15號,我們11月15號來開這個會,好不好?"},{"start":29496.263,"end":29523.514,"text":"好的好謝謝謝謝那再來呢再來是針對我地方的建設針對我們土城、三峽還有大溪龍潭這六五的延伸那六五延伸因為這條六五真的是一個必要性因為你現在從土城的工業區土城工業區現在目前就有300多家他一年的產值有1000多億"},{"start":29525.069,"end":29551.71,"text":"那造成整個交通都動亂土城工業區只有這一條中山路那未來樹林還有山峽這邊的車流量人口暴增那邊又有兩個重劃區有一個大甘林有一個麥子岩還有山峽北大一年人口成長1萬多人那整個交通"},{"start":29553.097,"end":29559.079,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":29579.787,"end":29601.4,"text":"會列入山峽跟土層為優先路段。 可行性評估113年1月30日上網招標。 4月30日結標6月27日召開會議辦理可行性期出報告。 目前已在8月1日完成。 預計明年114年3月中期出"},{"start":29606.042,"end":29614.515,"text":"其中報告那我是要拜託部長因為這一條的延伸真的是非常的重要也拜託院長"},{"start":29616.226,"end":29618.647,"text":"那是不是由部長來幫忙?因為這一條是非常急迫"},{"start":29646.175,"end":29661.141,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":29678.39,"end":29694.963,"text":"好謝謝吳委員謝謝卓院長委員陳秀寶之質詢以素面提出請行政院素面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報下一位我們請徐巧欣委員質詢"},{"start":29706.467,"end":29709.83,"text":"謝謝副院長。那我們有請卓院長。卓院長請備詢。主委好。"},{"start":29719.727,"end":29744.494,"text":"院長好,那第一個想要問您,總預算目前因為這個《進法補償條例》已經在立法院三讀通過,那行政院也沒有提出復議,總統也已經宣布了,但在行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關,目前尚未開始審查。我想問一下院長,憲法當中我們提出復議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下?"},{"start":29746.26,"end":29768.592,"text":"行政院認為有致愛難行的時候。 沒錯,在第三條呢,行政院對立法院決議之法律案,如果認為有致愛難行之處呢,得經總統核可,那以請復議。那所以呢,於心不忍,絕對不是一個送不送復議案的理由。 院長您同意嗎?跟委員報告,您不知道那天在參會上的現場為什麼我講出這樣的話。 那請說說。"},{"start":29772.892,"end":29774.153,"text":"三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式?當然"},{"start":29802.932,"end":29821.22,"text":"因為第一個我當時認為這個與憲法與法律都有所違背但我們再換個場景如果我當時提復議在大院的部分委員對我的批評又是另外一個那難道你沒有提復議了大家都沒有批評嗎我當時如果提復議一定又是罵得體無完膚"},{"start":29821.86,"end":29834.243,"text":"所以你是怕被罵所以不提復議的?那你剛剛就是這樣說啊,你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你所以你不提復議,但我剛剛重複問你一遍你又說不是,那是怎麼樣呢?那你覺得現在目前是好的方式嗎?現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了,請問是這樣嗎?"},{"start":29844.406,"end":29854.576,"text":"我說那是萬不得已的事我還是非常不願意如果我們得不到一個好的解決方法比方我說只要未來不要用這種"},{"start":29856.109,"end":29884.63,"text":"提議或立法的方式只要未來以後以後在您執政以後好那我想問一下最近您講了一個說進法補償並非一毛不編那可以編4萬那請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個是在法律之下按照預算的編列編4萬嗎還是他是用什麼一個框架之下第一點為什麼說行政院不是一毛不編因為黃國昌委員說我們是一毛不編"},{"start":29885.55,"end":29904.22,"text":"第二,為什麼我說編4萬,因為依照預算法91條,立法院對預算的稅出稅入有所變更的時候,必須徵詢行政院的意見。 當時我就說,如果我們衡量所有的狀況,由3萬調整到4萬,行政院是同意的。"},{"start":29904.38,"end":29925.459,"text":"那我請問一下喔,你這個是在禁法補償條例裡面提升到4萬,是這樣嗎?跟您做個確認。如果當時的協商,當時在法律討論的時候,修法的時候,行政的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。好,那了解了,所以你現在是這麼講嘛。但是呢,問題是喔,我們喔,今天喔,我再問你一個問題,如果是釋憲的話,"},{"start":29927.04,"end":29930.884,"text":"您會徵求徵詢賴總統的意見嗎?"},{"start":29930.884,"end":29936.228,"text":"或者到目前為止您有沒有針對《禁法補償條例》跟賴總統進行過討論?我們在不復議的時候有跟總統報告,因為復議要經過總統同意我才能復議。 所以總統不支持提出復議?"},{"start":29947.093,"end":29947.994,"text":"總統的態度是什麼呢?"},{"start":29947.994,"end":29952.496,"text":"尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?"},{"start":29968.166,"end":29989.276,"text":"我當然基於政治的倫理是,你會再向總統報告,所以到時候如果你釋憲的話,我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲?不必這麼理解,這行政院基於行政院的職權、立場,我們總統報告我們的決定。對,那總統如果告訴你說,我不同意你們去釋憲,那你會尊重總統嗎?"},{"start":29991.052,"end":30008.818,"text":"我跟總統會講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出賦予,但我還是希望我不必做這種報告,我還是希望我們可以... 是嘛,我在跟你討論嘛,我在跟你做各種討論嘛,因為這都有可能發生,因為釋憲這兩個字不排除釋憲是您說的呀,不然我也不會問您這個問題不是嗎?"},{"start":30010.518,"end":30012.12,"text":"事宪這兩個字是憲法賦予,我們各自順利。我說在不得已的情況下,我必須考慮。"},{"start":30028.095,"end":30028.676,"text":"那我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場"},{"start":30056.545,"end":30072.3,"text":"如果總統說不的話你會下台嗎?如果總統有其他的意見他會跟我交換意見但是那個結論不是現在我只能跟您報告的沒有他只是跟您做一個意見上的交換所以如果總統反對事件的話您會下台嗎?"},{"start":30074.343,"end":30093.885,"text":"總統反對釋憲的話對就是您說您要釋憲跟總統說他反對總統不必反對釋憲總統叫我下台我就下台了好就你這句話那接下來我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情說可以去編那請問在當時在討論慶法補償條例的時候您有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎"},{"start":30095.166,"end":30097.789,"text":"請問這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的,那他們人在哪裡,在做什麼?"},{"start":30114.127,"end":30139.185,"text":"對,他們是民進黨黨籍,那他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法,所以我再重複一次,這件事情不是政黨的立場。來,他們提出的版本是幾萬元?他們提出有提出6萬元。提出6萬元,請問行政院有向他們去做溝通嗎?有。有,然後結果呢?他們就是認為他們應該可以...那你知道整個民進黨有多少的比例的委員有做連署嗎?我知道。多少?"},{"start":30140.772,"end":30144.675,"text":"總共有好像七十幾位同意吧?沒有那麼多啦,七十幾位。 七十幾位!"},{"start":30149.478,"end":30176.898,"text":"你確定70幾位我們立法院113個立委如果70幾個民進黨的立法委員的話不是我說全部沒有我問的是民進黨我說因為這不是黨政黨的立場我說我問我現在只是請問你只要回答我的問題就好請問民進黨有多少的立法委員有連署6萬元的這個法案6萬喔"},{"start":30177.813,"end":30205.175,"text":"我不知道我沒有去數人頭你不知道對不對那我告訴你好不好總共呢有60%有33位的立法委員來我們看一下哪些人33位的立法委員加入了提案的連署佔了民進黨立法委員的六成那我們國民黨最後支持的版本你應該很清楚我們支持的是誰的版本"},{"start":30205.862,"end":30227.74,"text":"是大家討論過6萬的版本是誰的版本提案委員的版本哪一位委員我應該沒記錯是吳立華委員的版本對不是啊是陳寅委員的版本陳寅委員的版本才是6萬高精素美委員的版本不是6萬比6萬少更接近您的目標跟方向"},{"start":30228.3,"end":30246.188,"text":"高金素美委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元﹖我相信也有人去跟他溝通﹖所以是5萬元﹖更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標﹖可是當時我在立法院的現場﹖我看到了什麼呢﹖我看到了既然民進黨提了6萬的版本﹖"},{"start":30247.288,"end":30247.508,"text":"主席"},{"start":30265.4,"end":30290.716,"text":"這就是我們現在覺得非常非常尷尬的地方嘛!那這兩個人是怎麼回事?那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們!欸!我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投!我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民!在五萬跟六萬之間選擇了六萬去支持原住民!結果你現在告訴我說你們可以變成四萬!我們原本支持高精素美容院的版本還比較接近行政院捏!"},{"start":30291.776,"end":30309.054,"text":"這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎 院長 這不是政黨的問題 我沒有說這是政黨的問題 它就是因為不是政黨的問題 所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊 不是政黨的問題就不必一直提多少民進黨的委員的問題"},{"start":30309.454,"end":30329.13,"text":"因為沒有我只是想要告訴你說他就是超越黨派的民進黨很多人支持國民黨也很多人支持然後我們當下看到既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持我們就來支持跨黨派的版本支持民進黨結果原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了只能4萬不早講啊"},{"start":30330.271,"end":30330.291,"text":"陳部長請備詢"},{"start":30352.566,"end":30373.039,"text":"議題到這邊,因為還有一點時間我問一下部長,我們這次電價調整總體而言會影響到哪一些交通大眾交通工具?只要有用到電都會影響到?都會影響,那有哪一些大眾交通工具?像台鐵的部分,我們會每年增加多少經費?"},{"start":30377.657,"end":30405.153,"text":"我印象中他們給我的數據很像是3億還是2億多?不是,是4.56億,那高鐵呢?我還沒有看到他們的數據高鐵沒有看到數據,部長這樣不行喔,因為李昆澤委員之前在質詢的時候,他powerpoint上面都有,在交通委員會,是3.6億那請問北捷每年會增加多少億?委員,這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部講這沒有很多,北捷、高鐵、台鐵、桃園、基捷、高捷這沒有很多"},{"start":30409.256,"end":30420.406,"text":"可是最近講了電價這是攸關民生的大事啊而且我剛剛說了先前在李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候他後面大大的powerpoint就已經把這些東西都寫出來了"},{"start":30421.187,"end":30436.276,"text":"所以你應該是看過這些資料的我很確定我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢啊所以不能說這不能說您做交通部長我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧好那我來問這次這樣電費的調漲請問部長一下臺北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業哪一種的系統運輸業都市的吧"},{"start":30451.155,"end":30470.373,"text":"大眾捷運系統運輸也對那漲幅是百分之多少?我知道台鐵跟高鐵是百分之14但是北捷我不知道一樣是百分之14啊所以捷運他都是屬於百分之14跟台鐵還有高鐵一樣"},{"start":30471.462,"end":30481.561,"text":"但是有另外一種分類 您應該很清楚只有7%﹐高捷等捷運少了一半那是哪一類的運輸系統?"},{"start":30486.736,"end":30501.553,"text":"律務上運輸系統,部長、院長您就這就對了嘛,好,院長顯然是比較熟悉喔,這些呢,比如說管道啊、人力車啊、蓄力車或纜車這種用電比較少的,其實你們反而漲它漲比較少,只漲了7%。"},{"start":30505.972,"end":30533.186,"text":"部長您現在了解了嗎?他們漲價的邏輯,他們針對這種用電比較衰退,產業比較衰退的反而是漲的比較少,然後人多的反而是比較多,所以你的那個大眾,就是比如說你現在的列管,你的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類,我覺得你部長你最基本應該要去做了解,所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常的多人,我是說你最基本最基礎要去做一個了解嘛,"},{"start":30533.686,"end":30551.231,"text":"那我想問一下,就是剛剛其實就是院長所說的,我覺得啊,現在很多的,你剛剛那些都答不出來,我就不問你細節了。現在很多齁,比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本,他呢,從漲電價之後,從13%增加到16%,而且臺北捷運的電費就佔他的成本的13%。"},{"start":30558.053,"end":30585.146,"text":"所以我必須要講說一年上億次的人流在漲了電費之後對他們而言真的有很大的壓力那是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運我們就講捷運就好了對捷運包含桃園、台中、高雄、台北都有捷運能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼否則的話今年台電要跟我們要2000億的補貼我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去"},{"start":30586.381,"end":30599.222,"text":"報告委員 三個原則 第一個 這個電價的調整 第一個是反映台電的成本 發電成本 第二個是使用者付費 第三個是對於營運比較不是那麼健全的 我們漲幅比較少 所以它是7%"},{"start":30600.299,"end":30600.759,"text":"好,謝謝徐委員"},{"start":30629.38,"end":30629.9,"text":"謝謝主席。那我們有請院長,謝謝。請左院長備詢。"},{"start":30665.732,"end":30679.467,"text":"本席,今天雖然要來跟院長討論交通的議題,但是本席更關心的是在交通議題後面的一個永續性的問題,也就是我們現在常講的sustainable issue。"},{"start":30679.827,"end":30680.867,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":30699.623,"end":30716.056,"text":"當我們在做觀光發展的時候我們常會碰到一個問題就是觀光相關單位的介入跟地方節慶的變質那這會導致生活文化面跟旅遊發展上的兩難那這個部分經常在發展"},{"start":30716.476,"end":30716.496,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":30733.248,"end":30755.625,"text":"那地方節慶呢,在我國有很重要的一個地位。 這個節慶是整個地方的集體記憶、歷史、文化傳統還有社群凝聚的表現,那有很重要的內涵,跟這個社群的意義,對這個社群的意義。 但是觀光單位常常在發展觀光的時候,就跟地方的文化活動來結合。"},{"start":30757.626,"end":30784.549,"text":"但是在發展過後又沒有永續性的繼續推動。 所以本期想要談的是目的導向的問題。 地方節慶通常是當地社會的特定歷史背景﹐文化、習癖或宗教信仰形成的﹐目的是反映了對特定歷史事件﹐神話及自然現象的理解。 但是觀光的節慶常常都是在於做商業行銷﹐"},{"start":30786.189,"end":30804.85,"text":"考慮如何吸引更多的遊客,所以在介入的過程當中常常把它混為一談,所以觀光單位缺乏對這些內涵的理解跟尊重,很容易將節慶化成表面上的一種觀光商品,忽略了核心的文化跟社會意義。"},{"start":30806.011,"end":30823.409,"text":"所以本席想在這邊請教院長政府在推動觀光的同時如何確保文化資源不會被過度的商品化那你們是不是有具體的政策來平衡文化的保護跟經濟發展避免地方結訓失去了文化價值"},{"start":30825.996,"end":30854.506,"text":"無論是經濟發展跟觀光我覺得保存當地的文化特色是應該列為優先的考量這樣才不會讓一個文化就消滅了甚至我們在協助或是參與各地的這種比較傳統性的節慶的時候也應該遵照他們主辦單位傳統以來的方式吸引更多人去是要看過去到現在這種生活記憶的累積而不是看現在用新的方式去改變他們的生活型態"},{"start":30855.126,"end":30873.638,"text":"我們可以在周遭用一些科技的方式來襯托現在的社會新形態的方方面面但是節慶、慶典本身文化的保存我覺得這個才是像全世界有很多文化遺產他們保存的也是這個精神台灣應該文明的朝向這個方向去進展"},{"start":30874.922,"end":30884.149,"text":"謝謝院長,所以我想跟您請教,所以如果您今天去參加原住民的祭儀,我們拿阿美族的豐年祭來講,你們知道什麼時候是可以去參觀的嗎?"},{"start":30885.646,"end":30888.007,"text":"謝謝院長,那所以您剛才講到了時間,所以觀光相關的單位有掌握到這一些細節嗎?"},{"start":30905.154,"end":30913.224,"text":"所以當你們在做行銷的時候或做資訊的傳達有沒有考慮到跟確實掌握這些細節這個是我對於這一點來給這個我們交通部"},{"start":30918.38,"end":30947.185,"text":"當成一個參考另外在跟活動結合的時候你們常常在要跟人家合作的時候就說來我們一起來然後本來人家的本質這個活動的本質可能是一種競技比賽可是當你們介入了之後之後你們就變成體驗活動結果把人家原本有的競技比賽給稀釋掉了之後呢那地方反應的時候你們又說這不是我們的事情我們只管體驗然後那個競技活動變成別的單位這一點觀光局"},{"start":30948.065,"end":30976.708,"text":"對不起,那個交通部,你們對這點有所知嗎?是,這個部分,如果要辦旅遊,跟部落相關的部分,或者是跟一些地方文化相關的部分,我們應該是要尊重地方文化。像自行車啊,然後什麼帆船比賽,你們對這個部分有知覺嗎?所以很多的一些活動,像現在賴總統在談的運動觀光,那如果它原本是競技型的比賽,也因為這種競技型的核心概念而展現出觀光的價值,"},{"start":30977.509,"end":30979.03,"text":"我會尊重地方的文化這個部分我會請他們注意"},{"start":31001.015,"end":31002.336,"text":"國家綠道本席提醒院長"},{"start":31026.139,"end":31047.308,"text":"這幾條目前你們有7條未來我不知道還會不會有更多我們期待有更多將臺灣連結起來所以這7條的國家綠廊分別由經濟部、交通部、農業部、原民會、客委會等部會目前在主責推動跟維護管理但是我不知道你們對於這整個步道的整個推展"},{"start":31047.828,"end":31066.716,"text":"是不是有瞭解它這個管理方式有沒有導致在推動及維護上缺乏的整體性跟協調性?那這個統一的規劃跟整體的行銷是不是因為事權不一而影響到綠島本身作為全國生態及文化旅遊的一個潛力呢?"},{"start":31067.276,"end":31095.342,"text":"行政院是不是有考慮到設立跨部會機構﹖來統籌國家的步道系統﹖結合地方文化資源﹖進行永續管理﹖而不是國發會規劃了之後﹖然後就丟給大家去執行﹖然後沒有後面的控管﹖您的看法呢?如果是幾條的國家級綠道﹖步道﹖分別相關的幾個部會﹖或許真的是實際上是有關﹖原住民﹖客家朋友﹖或是他是經過農地﹖"},{"start":31096.562,"end":31099.205,"text":"主管機關必須對維護或未來發展作考量。 如果已經形成國家公園整個區域"},{"start":31111.878,"end":31133.699,"text":"我們就可以有一個統一的事權來管理 到的年限又比較困難這麼做 但是我們如果用觀光的眼光來看倒是可以請交通部能夠去做一個統合的 但是不一定是完全主管基本上事權統一讓他整體推動ratherland而不是每一個部會各行其事好不好"},{"start":31135.025,"end":31159.11,"text":"所以接下來這個東西也跟步道有點關係可是是自行車跟步道安全在我們推動的時候那當然自行車也是這種無動力的一種交通工具但是在設施的部分沒有系統性的規劃跟管理那這個本席其實有提到過在環島一號自行車車道跟全國的徒步路網其實有很多遊客或旅客會去走"},{"start":31160.231,"end":31171.608,"text":"北黎公路跟蘇花公路還有很多的隱憂,本席在之前的質詢也提到過,就像自行車道跟騎士和大型車輛的路道,"},{"start":31175.313,"end":31201.755,"text":"共用非常狹小的道路,增加了一些事故的風險。 還有,臺灣的自行車道在連續性、安全性上也很不足。 所以在先前的質詢當中,交通部其實承諾本席解決臺二線上面大卡車跟自行車道征道的問題。 這個問題一直很困擾民眾,也導致了一些交通的隱憂。 不曉得這個部長目前的進度如何?"},{"start":31202.438,"end":31216.617,"text":"報告委員,目前最近正在討論很多自行車道的問題,但很抱歉這個部分我確實還沒有聽到他們給我的說法。好的,那請部長是不是追蹤一下這件事情,具體的一個設施方案及改善。"},{"start":31217.438,"end":31246.42,"text":"好那接下來是這個全國環島徒步網的這個問題徒步的旅客也經常會碰到跟自行車一樣的道路狹窄然後最重要的許多車速過快這有動力的車然後步道連續性不足也是一個問題那針對像行人這樣也跟自行車一樣的弱勢族群我們讓他經常是在一個高風險區域在都會裡面也是一樣然後在城鎮之間也是一樣從一個運輸公平的觀點這個部分不知道"},{"start":31247.24,"end":31249.782,"text":"在都會也是一樣,在城鎮之間的連結也是一樣。 不知道部長這邊是不是有一些看法?"},{"start":31271.056,"end":31291.635,"text":"我看這個畫面應該是花東那邊,確實很多人在行走或者是騎腳踏車甚至是摩托車本席也參加過這些活動我覺得這些部分確實是應該要做比較好的規劃,因為旁邊的車子其實跑得蠻快那如果沒有做比較好的規劃其實對於那些要步行的人來說是相對危險的"},{"start":31292.356,"end":31293.438,"text":"主席"},{"start":31310.02,"end":31329.034,"text":"好謝謝那接下來很快的我們都知道我們要進入高齡化的社會那對於這個高齡人口來講呢這個交通事故中死亡率居高不下那我這邊很直接的提出來就是斑馬線設置的時間過短我相信這個應該現在大家有注意到這一點"},{"start":31329.815,"end":31351.901,"text":"另外設施不完善,在都會裡面一樣,那都會外更不用講,那很多時候在鄉下也是一樣,部落裡面更是有一些那個不是只有連外道路,部落裡面就像那個金針山,大家上山的那條路,是部落裡面很重要的一個生活空間,那這種很急速的這個車子跟生活空間,"},{"start":31352.421,"end":31380.913,"text":"的一個衝擊我想這是很嚴重的問題是不是可以全面檢視一下這種聯動性那這個部分是不是不知道交通部目前做到什麼程度時間比較短的部分我們現在有推行人實相的部分或者是行人優先實相的部分就是讓行人先走車子再往前走的這個部分有在規劃這個在都市裡面大家現在都會檢視但是在城鎮的聯動當中還有部落跟主要"},{"start":31381.873,"end":31384.114,"text":"目前部落的邊坡沒有相關檢視,也就是說A、B、C的分級跟處理,交通部目前沒有資料。"},{"start":31405.302,"end":31433.285,"text":"那所以我在上次提到有關於這個部落的這個邊坡相關的這個問題我們目前沒有下文所以不知道這個目前的進度如何 報告委員我是針對省道跟國道還有鐵路的部分我們邊坡我們都有做管理但是因為部落大部分是鄉道或者是縣道那這個部分確實交通部沒有進入去處理這一塊確實是 所以這我為部落這邊來請命啦那個我們東海岸很多那在這個山"},{"start":31434.285,"end":31439.049,"text":"最後要提到一個很重要的問題是一個免簽政策跟非法滯留的問題這現在引起了很嚴重的狀況"},{"start":31463.039,"end":31490.061,"text":"這其實牽扯到是一個短期的經濟利益跟長期社會成本的一個衝突我想這幾天那本席在這邊也收到很多的投訴我們為了推展觀光然後開放了很多免簽甚至有些國家我們提供了他們補助來台灣為了衝高這個數字但是導致一個很嚴重的問題就是非法滯留請問院長您知道現在非法滯留有多少人嗎?"},{"start":31491.062,"end":31519.422,"text":"這是非常嚴重的國安問題我會請監管單位把人數跟他們怎麼防範做一個有效的報告本席這邊研究出來的人數至少目前有9萬人這個比例非常的高喔非法滯留有9萬人那這就是如同你講的是個國安問題所以它不僅是對社會產生很嚴重的問題對我們觀光發展真的是正面的嗎"},{"start":31520.623,"end":31548.951,"text":"但是這裏面的細節就是在今年的3月1日我們修正了入出國及移民法也提高了對預期滯留者的罰款從一萬塊提升到五萬塊結果呢現在是大部分的人通通都裝死那我先跟院長請教一下您知道這些錢是從哪邊付的嗎?從哪邊付的?我請教這個是不是有包括一些逃逸的移工在內?"},{"start":31550.196,"end":31550.316,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":31582.321,"end":31594.875,"text":"下一位我們請邱若驊委員質詢。謝謝主席。主席有請行政院院長卓院長。卓院長請背信。"},{"start":31604.912,"end":31627.112,"text":"邱委員好。 院長好。 院長,行政院在9月30日正式核定桃竹廟大溪谷推動的方案草案,期稱2024至2027年將桃竹廟打造為更加完整的產業生態圈,4年要增6兆的產值,就業人口增14萬。首先本席肯定賴清德總統對現今選時的政見,也肯定"},{"start":31627.732,"end":31655.263,"text":"行政院的效率該計畫推動不只有利地方的發展更能提升我國在國際間的競爭力根據國發會核定報告的內容與桃竹苗大細股相關的交通計畫共有22項其中涉及桃園市境內的就有14項跨山線市的有一項與桃園的相關建設就有15項也就是說桃園的交通建設是否完善對計畫有極重大的影響請問院長您認同嗎"},{"start":31659.645,"end":31674.13,"text":"桃園的交通建設對於該計劃有極重大的影響,請問院長您認同嗎?當然同意,而且謝謝委員,我們雖然核定,我還沒有辦法一次把這麼詳細的資料說出來,感謝委員這樣的整理,謝謝。 院長我們可以在圖表中看到,"},{"start":31674.77,"end":31694.43,"text":"其中有六項計畫需要桃園市政府來做分攤。 三項計畫目前還在評估中,分別下列六項總計是528.7億。 評估中的三項建設依照國發會主委高仙貴的說法,板龍快速道路、新梅龍快速道路正在辦理可行性的研究。"},{"start":31696.312,"end":31706.966,"text":"預估,經費分別為1100億及600億元,那相信這個金額日後會更高,而捷運綠線延伸至大溪出估的經費是250億,上述三個計劃無疑是對桃園的施政經費。"},{"start":31711.331,"end":31711.631,"text":"對我們除了"},{"start":31732.41,"end":31749.137,"text":"這個桃竹苗大溪谷計畫我們還有其他區域性計畫我們都會用同樣的方式依國家的財政跟地區發展的需求我們跟地方政府充分合作我覺得在這個區域性的六大塊區域性發展過程當中中央必須負比較大的責任"},{"start":31749.793,"end":31750.213,"text":"請問院長,新政院接下來將會承擔吧?"},{"start":31774.027,"end":31792.896,"text":"桃園捷運綠線延伸之大旗目前還在桃園市政府修正可行性研究報告中。 院長之後是否將可行性的研究送達至中央後,本席希望中央可以來競速核定。 由於經費過高,本席也希望中央可以從優的來補助。 緩解地方的財政,院長這個能做到嗎?"},{"start":31793.888,"end":31823.468,"text":"對,就包括這種區域性的、跨縣式的、必須比較多的年數來做連續性預算的整個大的工作,都是過去到現在都是中央在做統一的規劃。這也是中央為什麼在這個財務的掌握底下,要必須有這種比較大的規劃方向。所以我們最近討論很多中央地方財政的合作,我認為我們如果從這個方向來談,中央負更多的責任來幫地方一起來做合作,這才是正途。"},{"start":31824.649,"end":31847.89,"text":"再請院長來全力支持那院長我們在看巴德交流道之前我們先來看近五年六都的中央統籌分配款還有一般的補助性金額由次表可知我們可以看到桃園市的中央統籌分配款還有一般補助性的金額一直都是六都墊底這樣的分配無疑是造成地方政府的財政困難"},{"start":31848.97,"end":31854.052,"text":"本席要舉例在114年桃園市稅出編列1711.98億那其中的捷運還有鐵路地下化編列153億1463萬元桃園航空城建設編列144億4069萬元那在各項社會福利補貼編列147億9980萬元有關長者的補助編列73億1657萬等院長您知道這代表什麼嗎"},{"start":31878.462,"end":31884.824,"text":"這也代表我們桃園市政府已經沒有多餘的經費了那國三政策八個交流道除了能夠改善地方的交通問題啊 更是桃竹苗大溪谷這個計畫中重要的交通建設之一 院長您知道這項建設地方要分攤多少錢嗎"},{"start":31906.244,"end":31921.398,"text":"這個部分我知道委員想要說的是他用地的這個費用啦用地的費用確實是地方應該要負擔但我現在聽到的是地方他們可能短時間之內沒有辦法一筆來付啦那目前交通部其實有正在跟桃園市政府正在溝通"},{"start":31921.778,"end":31928.764,"text":"本席來更詳細的說明,用地費是11.19億,連絡到71.89億,合計是83.08億。 院長、部長我們個別來看,有關11.19億的用地費部分,高工局要求市府必須一次性撥付整筆款項,才會啟動後續的作業。 市府已經將該費用納入114年預算,但市府財政實在沒有辦法在114年來做編滿。"},{"start":31946.838,"end":31962.726,"text":"陶淵市府提出也希望將經費分為兩年支出,14年撥付7成,15年撥付3成。 院長、部長為了讓後續的作業可以如期來運作,行政院應該來居中協調,也拜託部長來協助,讓陶淵市政府分年撥付。"},{"start":31963.786,"end":31982.267,"text":"目前正在協調當中,我們也希望進度可以快一些,那一天我們去桃園的時候,他們的秘書長也有特別跟我提到這件事,那我也請我們交通部的同仁們趕快加速來討論。"},{"start":31983.971,"end":32006.362,"text":"好那至於另外71.891的聯絡道工程部分這筆費用也造成地方政府的財政負擔那市府希望可以爭取生活圈交通系統建設計畫那目前市政府已經完成編號道路的報編程序了為了順利推動桃竹苗大矽谷計畫本席請院長召集國土署還有交通部等相關單位進行研議院長說得到嗎這個部長在這裡說這個應該是請國土署"},{"start":32013.63,"end":32014.932,"text":"請問我們什麼時候可以來召開會議?"},{"start":32028.935,"end":32034.179,"text":"為了配合未來巴德交流到通車後的運量﹚還有紓解大溪的交通﹚市府預計推動大溪兩岸道路計畫﹚經費預估是49.6億﹚待抱邊道路還有環平的程序過後﹚"},{"start":32053.175,"end":32073.435,"text":"會提出補助的申請﹚該計劃是巴德交流道的延伸﹚對於桃竹廟大溪谷的推動也有正面的效益﹚日後市府送交計劃後本席希望院長能夠來要求相關部會﹚訂定中長城的個案補助計劃﹚例如新北市的1050道。 院長可以給本席承諾嗎?"},{"start":32074.421,"end":32081.427,"text":"巴德交流道能否順利興建,將會影響桃竹苗大矽谷是否能順利推動,也由於地方財政不足,需要仰賴中央協助,請中央務必全力支持。"},{"start":32101.87,"end":32121.448,"text":"本席請問院長,您自認是一位有效率有執行力的人嗎?努力。再來本席要針對山陰縣延伸桃園8的一案請教院長。 交通部於9月20日彙整資料後目前呈報行政院至今已經28天了。 請問部長目前的核定進度是?"},{"start":32126.17,"end":32151.729,"text":"目前他的中規在交通部的部分是原則上已經同意那也送到院本席在這邊也要和部長說也要和院長說院長這件案子從交通部陳列到審議結束共花費29天交通部補充資料送出城堡花費了101天行政院合決資金花了28天目前中央審議就花費一共158天如果再不核定天數只會一直累積"},{"start":32152.529,"end":32159.973,"text":"本席不得不提,我們來看到臺鐵征聖鳳鳴臨時站的計畫,從交通部承包到行政院合訂經費,院長您知道花了幾天嗎?這樣看是一個多月的時間"},{"start":32167.171,"end":32182.241,"text":"交通部提交計畫到行政院審查會議通過12天,審查會議到交通部修正計畫提出21天,提交修正計畫到核定僅花15天,該案為蘇貞昌院長任內使通過。"},{"start":32183.422,"end":32208.731,"text":"院長,蘇貞昌院長只花了48天就核定了偵涉鳳鳴戰役案,本席相信金人勝錢人,以卓部長的執行力與魄力,一定能夠超越前輩。 院長有沒有信心?因為上面那個案剛好牽扯到政府的新改組,所以當中應該有一些銜接的過程,我們表示抱歉。 那未來我們盡快照目前的程序來加速,做一個合理的決定。"},{"start":32209.885,"end":32237.311,"text":"是,院長儘快是多快?因為已經158天了。很快,就會加快,就會很快。希望可以在10月底前來做核定,可以嗎?我看他送到院裡面來,我們院裡相關的這個單位有沒有特別的其他意見,通常或許會再請這個部會或是地方表達不同的意見,如果沒有的話就很快。那有的話也是在讓這個計畫更完整,請委員放心。"},{"start":32238.947,"end":32254.019,"text":"三一線延伸巴德對於巴德還有大西的民眾至關重要,而且國發會也採支持的態度,所以麻煩卓院長展現效率在本月月底前,本席是希望可以在本月的月底前,那就核定三一線延伸巴德的計畫。"},{"start":32255.981,"end":32261.763,"text":"北橫國家風景區是我們桃園市政府近年推動的重要觀光政策。 去年市府為了宣傳北橫之美更是推出了北橫觀光形象影片。 根據桃園市政府統計"},{"start":32282.589,"end":32303.196,"text":"北橫的旅遊人次從111年的900多萬人次大幅提升到112年1131萬人次,代表北橫有良好的觀光資源還有發展觀光的潛力。 桃園市政府也在今年的6月7日函送北橫地區環境資源調查及評鑑作業說明書至交通部觀光署。"},{"start":32303.876,"end":32325.202,"text":"後續,人均評鑑和部落會議過半數決議同意等程序才能成立北橫國家風景區。就本席了解,目前北橫卡關的原因主要是因為原民會議無法順利召開。 本席就很納悶了,根據桃園市管理局表示,已經針對復興區的原民部落議院調查,"},{"start":32326.653,"end":32340.799,"text":"表示地方有民眾超過六成的民眾表示贊成而復興區有60個大小部落有部落會議的組織只有一半因此有一定的難度請問院長您贊不贊成成立北橫國家風景區"},{"start":32342.475,"end":32358.487,"text":"如果剛剛看委員這樣一個人數的成長表示國人也好或是世界上的朋友對這個地方會有很多的期待跟興趣那我們來成立是應該列為未來可以考慮的方向吧我們請交通部來積極的研究我們希望能夠盡快"},{"start":32363.431,"end":32386.159,"text":"還在討論目前就是卡在園民會那不得不說院長部長近期園民會委員爭議不斷照高進委員還有黃國昌委員指出他們月領8萬多元的高薪那他們也有些委員也只跑地方的混上喜慶所以在此本席要強力的來建議院長為了消除大家的質疑請院長與園民會主委來做溝通讓這18位"},{"start":32389.09,"end":32408.258,"text":"月領八萬高薪的原住民委員動起來了,協助桃園市政府還有各原民會部落來做溝通,成就中央地方齊心成立北橫國家公園的佳化。 院長您願意當這座溝通的橋樑嗎?原民會的委員代表各個族群部落不同的"},{"start":32409.411,"end":32409.711,"text":"委員會主委"},{"start":32431.69,"end":32448.593,"text":"是為了我們臺灣的觀光,就是我們大家一起動起來。那我們再來看另外一座橋。我們桃園大溪一直以來都是桃園的觀光重鎮。大溪的歷史可以追溯到秦龍年間,約末1736年,並有漢人逆襲而上開墾,所以留下了許多"},{"start":32449.013,"end":32450.615,"text":"臨近雙北,所以每當假日就有眾多的遊客和鄉客。"},{"start":32466.269,"end":32473.553,"text":"根據觀光署統計,大溪老城區109年有489.1萬人次造訪,逐年攀升到112年的698.8萬人次,其中112年的旅客人次相比115年多出105萬人次。慈湖臨景則是從109年的197.8萬人次攀升到112年的357.8萬人次。我們單從這兩個"},{"start":32496.547,"end":32521.144,"text":"大溪的遊客是呈現逐年增加的趨勢。由於大溪遭大旱溪切割的關係,導致大溪的老城區與大溪交流到分屬兩岸,所以每到假日便出現了嚴重的塞車問題。而老城區連外的橋樑僅有武嶺橋、坎津大橋,目前已經沒有辦法紓解假日的人潮和車流。"},{"start":32533.482,"end":32550.668,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員。報言會本日排定質詢的委員均與答詢完畢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。10月22日星期二上午9時繼續開會,進行交通組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":32673.181,"end":32673.201,"text":"二、3、4、5、6﹗"}]}},{"id":"155767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc02179cb8929ad0ed6365beba687ce68b1b0999f2bd935aee0ef60f89052436b86d4f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"17:16:46 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主席有請行政院院長 卓院長卓院長請背信"},{"start":16.38,"end":36.497,"text":"邱委員好。 院長好。 院長,行政院在9月30日正式核定桃竹廟大溪谷推動的方案草案,計程2024至2027年將桃竹廟打造為更加完整的產業生態圈,4年要增6兆的產值,就業人口增14萬。首先本席肯定賴清德總統對現今選時的政見,也肯定"},{"start":38.899,"end":39.339,"text":"請問院長您認同嗎?"},{"start":71.129,"end":85.615,"text":"陶淵的交通建設對該計劃有極重大的影響,請問院長您認同嗎?當然同意,而且謝謝委員,我們雖然核定,我還沒有辦法一次把這麼詳細的資料說出來,感謝委員這樣的整理,謝謝。 院長我們可以在圖表中看到,"},{"start":86.255,"end":105.904,"text":"其中有6項計畫需要桃園市政府來做分攤,3項計畫目前還在評估中,分別下列6項,總計是528.7億。 評估中的3項建設,依照國發會主委高信貴的說法,板龍快速道路、新梅龍快速道路,正在辦理可行性的研究。"},{"start":108.506,"end":117.052,"text":"經費分別為1100億及600億元,那相信這個金額日後會更高,而捷運綠線延伸至大溪出估的經費是250億,上述三個計劃無疑是對桃園的施政經費。"},{"start":122.816,"end":123.116,"text":"對,我們除了"},{"start":143.615,"end":144.817,"text":"這個逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃逃"},{"start":161.277,"end":161.978,"text":"請問院長,行政院接下來將會承擔吧?"},{"start":185.493,"end":204.374,"text":"桃園捷運綠線延伸之大旗目前還在桃園市政府修正可行性研究報告中。 院長之後是否將可行性的研究送達至中央後,本席希望中央可以來競速核定。 由於經費過高,本席也希望中央可以從優的來補助。 緩解地方的財政,院長這個能做到嗎?"},{"start":205.593,"end":234.953,"text":"對,就包括這種區域性的、跨縣式的必須比較多的年數來做連續性預算的整個大的工作都是過去到現在都是中央在做統一的規劃這也是中央為什麼在這個財務的掌握底下要必須有這種比較大的規劃方向所以我們最近討論很多中央地方財政的合作我認為我們如果從這個方向來談中央負更多的責任來幫地方一起來做合作這才是正途"},{"start":239.156,"end":259.375,"text":"在看巴德交流道之前,我們先來看近五年六都的中央統籌分配款還有一般的補助性金額。 由此表可知,我們可以看到桃園市的中央統籌分配款還有一般補助性金額一直都是六都墊底。 這樣的分配無疑是造成地方政府的財政困難。"},{"start":260.455,"end":265.537,"text":"本席要舉例在114年桃園市稅出編列1711.98億那其中的捷運還有鐵路地下化編列153億1463萬元桃園航空城建設編列144億4069萬元那在各項社會福利補貼編列147億9980萬元有關長者的補助編列73億1657萬等院長您知道這代表什麼嗎"},{"start":289.946,"end":296.029,"text":"這也代表我們桃園市政府已經沒有多餘的經費了那國三政策八個交流道除了能夠改善地方的交通問題 更是桃竹苗大溪谷這個計畫中重要的交通建設之一 院長您知道這項建設地方要分攤多少錢嗎?"},{"start":317.729,"end":332.883,"text":"這個部分我知道委員想要說的是他用地的這個費用啦用地的費用確實是地方應該要負擔但我現在聽到的是地方他們可能短時間之內沒有辦法一筆來付啦那目前交通部其實有正在跟桃園市政府正在溝通"},{"start":333.263,"end":340.189,"text":"本席來更詳細的說明用地費是11.19億聯絡到71.89億合計是83.08億 院長部長我們個別來看有關11.19億的用地費部分 高工局要求市府必須一次性撥付整筆款項才會啟動後續的作業市府已經將該費用納入114年預算 但市府財政實在沒有辦法在114年來做編滿"},{"start":358.323,"end":374.219,"text":"陶淵市府提出也希望將經費分為兩年支出,14年撥付7成,15年撥付3成。 院長、部長為了讓後續的作業可以如期來運作,行政院應該來居中協調,也拜託部長來協助,讓陶淵市政府分年撥付。"},{"start":375.28,"end":393.73,"text":"目前正在協調當中,我們也希望進度可以快一些。 那一天我們去桃園的時候,他們的秘書長也有特別跟我提到這件事。 那我也請我們交通部的同仁們趕快加速來討論。"},{"start":395.455,"end":417.822,"text":"好那至於另外71.891的聯絡道工程部分這筆費用也造成地方政府的財政負擔那市府希望可以爭取生活圈交通系統建設計畫那目前市政府已經完成編號道路的報編程序了為了順利推動桃竹苗大矽谷計畫本席請院長召集國土署還有交通部等相關單位進行研議院長說得到嗎這個部長在這裡說這個應該是請國土署"},{"start":425.094,"end":426.416,"text":"請問我們什麼時候可以來召開會議?"},{"start":440.419,"end":445.664,"text":"為了配合未來巴德交流到通車後的運量還有紓解大溪的交通,市府預計推動大溪兩岸道路計畫,經費預估是49.6億,待抱邊道路還有環平的程序過後,"},{"start":464.66,"end":484.899,"text":"會提出補助的申請﹚該計劃巴德交流道是巴德交流道的延伸﹚對於桃竹廟大溪谷的推動也有正面的效益﹚日後市府送交計劃後本席希望院長能夠來要求相關部會﹚訂定中長城的個案補助計劃﹚例如新北市的1050道。 院長可以給本席承諾嗎?"},{"start":485.896,"end":492.923,"text":"巴德交流道巴德交流道能否順利興建,將會影響桃竹苗大細股是否能順利推動,也由於我們地方財政不足,需要仰賴中央協助,請中央務必全力支持。"},{"start":513.354,"end":532.933,"text":"本席請問院長,您自認是一位有效率有執行力的人嗎?努力。再來本席要針對山陰縣延伸桃園8的一案請教院長。 交通部於9月20日彙整資料後目前呈報行政院至今已經28天了。 請問部長目前的核定進度是?"},{"start":537.655,"end":563.214,"text":"目前他的中規在交通部的部分是原則上已經同意,那也送到院。本席在這邊也要和部長說,也要和院長說,院長這件案子從交通部陳列到審議結束共花費29天,交通部補充資料送出城堡花費了101天,行政院合決資金花了28天,目前中央審議就花費一共158天,如果再不核定,天數只會一直累積。"},{"start":563.914,"end":571.457,"text":"那本席不得不提了我們來看到台鐵征聖鳳鳴臨時站的計畫從交通部承包到行政院核定經費 院長您知道花了幾天嗎這樣看是一個多月的時間"},{"start":578.656,"end":593.706,"text":"交通部提交計劃到行政院審查會議通過12天,審查會議到交通部修正計劃提出21天,提交修正計劃到核定僅花15天,該案為蘇貞昌院長任內使通過。"},{"start":594.907,"end":620.212,"text":"院長,蘇貞昌院長只花了48天就核定了偵涉鳳鳴戰役案,本席相信金人勝錢人,以卓部長的執行力與魄力,一定能夠超越前輩。 院長有沒有信心?因為上面那個案剛好牽扯到政府的新改組,所以當中應該有一些銜接的過程,我們表示抱歉。 那未來我們盡快照目前的程序來加速,做一個合理的決定。"},{"start":621.37,"end":648.812,"text":"是,院長儘快是多快?因為已經158天了。很快,就會加快,就會很快。希望可以在10月底前來做核定,可以嗎?我看他送到院裡面來,我們院裡相關的這個單位有沒有特別的其他意見,通常或許會再請這個部會或是地方表達不同的意見,如果沒有這個話就很快。那有的話也是在讓這個計畫更完整,請委員放心。"},{"start":650.431,"end":671.248,"text":"三一線延伸巴德對於巴德還有大溪的民眾至關重要,而且國發會也採支持的態度,所以麻煩卓院長展現效率在本月月底前,本席是希望可以在本月的月底前,那就核定三一線延伸巴德的計畫。我會特別把這個計畫先拿來看,現在它的程序進行到什麼樣的進度。"},{"start":675.652,"end":692.574,"text":"那接下來我們來看到觀光北橫國家風景區北橫國家風景區是我們桃園市政府近年推動的重要觀光政策去年市府為了宣傳北橫之美更是推出了北橫觀光形象影片根據桃園市政府統計"},{"start":694.076,"end":714.677,"text":"北橫的旅遊人次從111年的900多萬人次﹐大幅提升到112年1131萬人次﹐代表北橫有良好的觀光資源﹐還有發展觀光的潛力。 旁邊市政府也在今年的6月7日﹐含送北橫地區環境資源調查及評鑑作業說明書至交通部觀光署﹐"},{"start":715.237,"end":719.298,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":738.137,"end":752.289,"text":"表示地方有民眾超過6成的民眾表示贊成而復興區有60個大小部落有部落會議的組織只有一半因此有一定的難度請問院長您贊不贊成成立北橫國家風景區"},{"start":753.939,"end":770.232,"text":"若剛剛看委員這樣一個人數的成長表示國人也好或是世界上的朋友對這個地方會有很多的期待跟興趣那我們來成立是應該列為未來可以考慮的方向吧我們請交通部來積極的研究我們希望能夠盡快"},{"start":774.915,"end":797.636,"text":"還在討論目前就是卡在園民會那不得不說院長部長近期園民會委員爭議不斷趙高興委員還有黃國昌委員指出他們月領8萬多元的高薪那他們也有些委員也只跑地方的混上喜慶所以在此本席要強力的來建議院長為了消除大家的質疑請院長與園民會主委來做溝通讓這18位"},{"start":800.014,"end":801.795,"text":"原民會的委員代表各個族群部落不同的"},{"start":820.916,"end":821.456,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":843.174,"end":860.061,"text":"是為了我們臺灣的觀光,就是我們大家一起動起來。那我們再來看另外一座橋。我們桃園大溪一直以來都是桃園的觀光重鎮。大溪的歷史可以追溯到秦龍年間,約末1736年,被有漢人逆襲而上開墾,所以留下了許多"},{"start":861.021,"end":876.293,"text":"歷史資產其中包含了大溪老街、蓮舟山觀音寺、大溪龍山寺還有大溪普京堂多間的百年古薩。 先總統的臨寢也位於大溪,加上離近雙北,所以每當假日就有眾多的遊客和鄉客。"},{"start":877.754,"end":884.837,"text":"根據觀光署統計,大溪老城區109年有489.1萬人次造訪,逐年攀升到112年的698.8萬人次,其中112年的旅客人次相比115年多出105萬人次。慈湖臨寢則是從109年的197.8萬人次攀升到112年的357.8萬人次。"},{"start":908.027,"end":932.613,"text":"大溪的遊客是呈現逐年增加的趨勢。由於大溪遭大旱溪切割的關係,導致大溪的老城區與大溪交流到分屬兩岸,所以每到假日便出現了嚴重的塞車問題。而老城區連外的橋樑僅有武嶺橋、坎津大橋,目前已經沒有辦法紓解假日的人潮和車流。"},{"start":941.906,"end":945.436,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":831,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（17時16分）謝謝主席，主席有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員若華：院長好，行政院在9月30日正式核定了桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案草案，期程是2024年至2027年，將桃竹苗打造為更加完整的產業生態圈，4年要增6兆產值，就業人口增14萬。首先，本席肯定賴清德總統兌現競選時的政見，也肯定行政院的效率，該計畫的推動不只有利地方的發展，更能提升我國在國際間的競爭力。根據國發會核定報告的內容，與桃竹苗大矽谷相關的交通計畫共有22項，其中涉及桃園市境內的就有14項，跨三縣市的有1項，與桃園的相關建設就有15項，也就是說桃園的交通建設是否完善對計畫有極重大的影響，請問院長，您認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然同意，而且謝謝委員，我們雖然核定了，但還沒有辦法一次把這麼詳細的資料說出來，感謝委員這樣的整理，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：院長，我們可以在圖表中看到，其中有6項計畫需要桃園市政府來分攤，3項計畫目前還在評估中，下列6項總計是528.7億，評估中的3項建設，依照國發會副主委高仙桂的說法，板龍快速道路、新梅龍快速道路正在辦理可行性的研究，預估經費分別為1,100億及600億元，相信這個金額日後會更高，而捷運綠線延伸至大溪初估的經費是250億。上述3個計畫無疑是讓桃園的市政經費、財政增加負擔。板龍快速道路、新梅龍快速道路正在進行可行性研究的評估，都將在115年完成評估報告，請問院長，這兩條快速道路為大矽谷計畫中非常重要的交通建設，所以應該是有望可以順利通過吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們除了這個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，還有其他區域性計畫，我們都會用同樣的方式，依國家的財政跟地區發展的需求，我們跟地方政府充分合作。我覺得在這六大塊區域發展過程中，中央必須負比較大的責任。"],["邱委員若華：由於這兩條快速道路的建設經費十分可觀，本席希望這兩項順利通過之後，中央可以勇於來承擔建設經費的支出，避免加重地方的財政壓力，畢竟這兩條快速道路不光是為了桃園所做，更可以提升我國的競爭力，請問院長，行政院接下來將會承擔吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員若華：好。桃園捷運綠線延伸至大溪，目前還在桃園市政府修正可行性研究報告中。那麼院長，之後市府將可行性的研究送達至中央後，本席希望中央可以儘速核定；由於經費過高，本席也希望中央可以從優補助，緩解地方的財政，院長，這個能做到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，包括這種區域性的、跨縣市的，必須比較多的年數來做連續性預算的整個大的工作，過去到現在都是中央在做統一規劃，這也是中央為什麼在財務的掌握底下必須要有這種比較大的規劃方向，所以我們最近討論很多中央、地方財政的合作。我認為，我們如果從這個方向來談，中央負更多責任來幫地方，一起合作，這才是正途。"],["邱委員若華：請院長全力支持。","在看八德交流道之前，我們先來看近5年六都的中央統籌分配款，還有一般補助性金額。由此表可知，我們可以看到桃園市的中央統籌分配款還有一般補助性的金額，一直都是六都墊底，這樣的分配無疑造成地方政府的財政困難。本席要舉例，在114年，桃園市歲出編列1,711.98億，其中捷運及鐵路地下化編列153億1,463萬元；桃園航空城建設編列144億4,069萬元；各項社會福利補貼是編列147億9,980萬元；有關長者的補助編列73億1,657萬等。院長，您知道這代表什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：代表桃園是一個新興、快速成長的地方。"],["邱委員若華：桃園確實是啊！這代表桃園市政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：人數增加很快，所以各公共設施要馬上接得起來，趕著上路。"],["邱委員若華：是，這也代表桃園市政府已經沒有多餘的經費了。八德交流道除了能夠改善地方的交通問題，更是桃竹苗大矽谷這個計畫中重要的交通建設之一。院長，您知道這項建設在地方要分攤多少錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["邱委員若華：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分，我知道委員想要說的是它用地的費用。"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["陳部長世凱：用地的費用確實是地方應該要負擔，我現在聽到的是地方可能短時間之內沒有辦法一筆付。"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["陳部長世凱：目前交通部其實跟桃園市政府正在溝通。"],["邱委員若華：那本席更詳細來說明，用地費是11.19億、聯絡道71.89億，合計是83.08億。","院長、部長，我們個別來看，有關11.19億的用地費部分，高公局要求市府必須一次性撥付整筆款項才會啟動後續作業。市府已經將該費用納入114年預算，但市府財政實在沒有辦法在114年編滿。桃園市府有提出，也希望將經費分為兩年支出，114年撥付七成，115年撥付三成。院長、部長，為了讓後續的作業可以如期運作，行政院應該居中協調，也拜託部長協助，讓桃園市政府分年撥付。"],["陳部長世凱：目前正在跟桃園市政府協調。"],["邱委員若華：正在協調當中。"],["陳部長世凱：目前正在協調當中。"],["邱委員若華：那什麼時候可以知道？"],["陳部長世凱：目前正在協調當中，我們也……"],["邱委員若華：什麼時候可以有明確的答復？"],["陳部長世凱：我們也希望進度可以快一些。那一天我們去桃園的時候，他們的秘書長特別跟我提到這件事，我也請交通部的同仁們趕快加速來討論。"],["邱委員若華：好，另外71.89億的聯絡道工程部分，這筆費用也造成地方政府的財政負擔。市府希望可以爭取生活圈交通系統建設計畫，目前市政府已經完成編號道路的報編程序了。為了順利推動桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，本席請院長召集國土署及交通部等相關單位進行研議，院長做得到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長在這裡說，這個應該是請國土署就聯外道路的工程來進行，因為它是屬於內政部的工作，我會請內政部進行必要的瞭解，跟委員提出報告。"],["邱委員若華：請問最快我們什麼時候可以召開會議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請內政部直接答復委員，看他能夠……"],["邱委員若華：OK……"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在不方便替他講時間，但是我會請他儘快跟委員直接答復。"],["邱委員若華：好，屆時也請再通知本席。","另外，為了配合未來八德交流道通車後的運量，還有疏解大溪的交通，市府預計推動大溪兩岸道路計畫，經費預估是49.6億，待報編道路還有環評的程序過後會提出補助的申請。該計畫是八德交流道的延伸，對於桃竹苗大矽谷的推動也有正面效益，日後市府送交計畫後，本席希望院長能夠要求相關部會訂定中長程的個案補助計畫，例如新北市的105市道，院長可以給本席承諾嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部，這個就是八德交流道的部分。"],["陳部長世凱：可以啊！等他們計畫提出來之後，我們來討論好不好？"],["邱委員若華：好，再請部長協助。"],["陳部長世凱：目前計畫還沒提出來。"],["邱委員若華：因為八德交流道能否順利興建將會影響桃竹苗大矽谷是否能順利推動，也由於我們地方財政不足，需要仰賴中央的協助，請中央務必要全力來支持。","接下來，請問院長您自認是一位有效率、有執行力的人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：努力！"],["邱委員若華：努力哦？再來本席要針對三鶯線延伸至桃園八德一案請教院長。交通部於9月20日彙整資料後陳報行政院，至今已經28天了，請問部長，目前的核定進度是？"],["陳部長世凱：目前它的綜規在交通部的部分原則上已經同意，也送到院裡面了，目前院裡面正在核定當中。"],["邱委員若華：本席在這邊也要和院長說，院長，這個案子從交通部陳列到審議結束共花費29天，交通部補充資料、送出陳列花費了101天，行政院核決至今花了28天，目前中央審議一共就花費158天，如果再不核定，天數只會一直累積。本席不得不提臺鐵增設鳳鳴臨時站的計畫，從交通部陳報到行政院核定經費，院長您知道花了幾天嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣看是一個多月的時間。"],["邱委員若華：一個多月的時間喔！交通部提交計畫到行政院審查會議通過是12天，審查會議到交通部修正計畫提出是21天，提交修正計畫到核定僅花了15天，該案是蘇貞昌院長任內通過的。院長，蘇貞昌院長只花了48天就核定了增設鳳鳴站一案，本席相信今人勝前人，以卓院長的執行力和魄力，一定能夠超越前輩。院長，有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為上面那個案子剛好牽涉到政府的新改組，所以當中應該有一些銜接的過程，我們很抱歉，未來我們儘快照目前的程序，加速做一個合理的決定。"],["邱委員若華：院長，儘快是多快？因為已經158天了。"],["卓院長榮泰：很快。"],["邱委員若華：蛤？不好意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：就會加快、就會很快。"],["邱委員若華：好，希望可以在10月底前核定。可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我看它送到院裡面來，我們院裡相關的單位有沒有特別的其他意見，通常或許會再請部會或是地方表達不同的意見，如果沒有這個的話就很快，有的話也是讓這個計畫更完整，請委員放心。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。三鶯線延伸至八德對八德還有大溪的民眾至關重要，而且國發會也採支持的態度，所以麻煩卓院長展現效率，本席希望可以在本月月底前就核定三鶯線延伸至八德的計畫。院長，希望您……"],["卓院長榮泰：我會特別把這個計畫先拿來看現在它的程序進行到什麼樣的進度。"],["邱委員若華：好，請院長關心。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：接下來和觀光有關。北橫國家風景區是我們桃園市府近年推動的重要觀光政策，去年市府為了宣傳北橫之美，更是推出了北橫觀光形象影片。根據桃園市政府的統計，北橫旅遊人次從111年的九百多萬人次大幅提升到112年的1,131萬人次，代表北橫有良好的觀光資源還有發展觀光的潛力。桃園市政府也在今年6月7號，函送北橫地區環境資源調查暨評鑑作業說明書至交通部觀光署，後續仍須經評鑑還有部落會議過半數決議同意等程序，才能來成立北橫國家風景區。","據本席瞭解，目前北橫國家風景區卡關的原因主要是因為原民會議無法順利召開。那本席就很納悶了，根據桃園市觀旅局表示，針對復興區的原民部落意願調查，地方有超過六成的民眾表示贊成，而復興區有60個大小部落，有部落會議的組織只有一半，因此有一定的難度。請問院長，您贊不贊成成立北橫國家風景區？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛看委員指出這樣的人數成長，表示國人也好，或是世界上的朋友，對這個地方都有很多的期待和興趣，我們來成立應該列為未來可以考慮的方向吧！我們請交通部來積極研究。"],["陳部長世凱：是，目前已經在觀光署這邊評估，確實會議上有一些……還在討論啦！"],["邱委員若華：還在討論？目前就是卡在原民會。不得不說，院長、部長，近期原民會委員爭議不斷，照高金委員還有黃國昌委員指出，他們月領八萬多元的高薪，有些委員也只跑地方的婚喪喜慶。所以在此本席要強力建議院長，為了消除大家的質疑，請院長與原民會主委來做溝通，讓這18位月領8萬高薪的原住民委員動起來，協助桃園市政府，還有各原民會部落來溝通，成就中央、地方齊心成立北橫國家公園的嘉話。院長，您願意當這座溝通的橋梁嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，原民會的委員代表各個族群部落不同的意見，我們原民會的主委應該最熟悉的，要跟他們保持最好的溝通，也最了解他們才對。這個部分主委過去表達出他並沒有完全掌握，我是覺得這個非常不應該，我會請原民會主委增加了解，而且希望他們能夠一起促進地方的各種發展跟建設。"],["邱委員若華：是，為了我們臺灣的觀光，我們大家一起動起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員若華：我們再來看另外一座橋，我們桃園大溪一直以來都是桃園的觀光重鎮，大溪的歷史可以追溯到清乾隆年間，約莫1736年便有漢人逆溪而上開墾，所以留下了許多歷史資產，其中包含了大溪老街、蓮座山觀音寺、大溪龍山寺，還有大溪普濟堂等多間的百年古剎，先總統的陵寢也位於大溪，加上鄰近雙北，所以每當假日就有眾多的遊客還有香客。根據觀光署統計，大溪老城區109年有489.1萬人次造訪，逐年攀升到112年的698.8萬人次，其中112年的旅客人次相比111年，多出105萬人次；慈湖陵寢則是從109年的197.8萬人次，攀升到112年的357.8萬人次。","我們單從這兩個景區的遊客人次來看，大溪的遊客是呈現逐年增加的趨勢，由於大溪遭大漢溪切割的關係，導致大溪的老城區與大溪交流道分屬兩岸，所以每到假日便出現了嚴重的塞車問題，而老城區聯外的橋梁僅有武嶺橋、崁津大橋，目前已經沒有辦法紓解假日的人潮還有車流，市政府目前也提出興建第三座大橋。","因為時間的關係，希望中央可以來協助。"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部來研究。"],["邱委員若華：交通部來研究？好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已答詢完畢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。","10月22日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行交通組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（17時32分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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但是觀光的節慶常常都是在於做商業行銷﹐"},{"start":144.619,"end":163.26,"text":"考慮如何吸引更多的遊客,所以在介入的過程當中常常把它混為一談,所以觀光單位缺乏對這些內涵的理解跟尊重,很容易將節慶化成表面上的一種觀光商品,忽略了核心的文化跟社會意義。"},{"start":164.441,"end":181.839,"text":"所以本席想在這邊請教院長政府在推動觀光的同時如何確保文化資源不會被過度的商品化那你們是不是有具體的政策來平衡文化的保護跟經濟發展避免地方結訓失去了文化價值"},{"start":184.406,"end":212.936,"text":"無論是經濟發展跟觀光我覺得保存當地的文化特色是應該列為優先的考量這樣才不會讓一個文化就消滅了甚至我們在協助或是參與各地的這種比較傳統性的節慶的時候也應該遵照他們主辦單位傳統以來的方式吸引更多人去是要看過去到現在這種生活記憶的累積而不是看現在用新的方式去改變他們的生活型態"},{"start":213.556,"end":232.068,"text":"我們可以在周遭用一些科技的方式來襯托現在的社會新形態的方方面面但是節慶、慶典本身文化的保存我覺得這個才是像全世界有很多文化遺產他們保存的也是這個精神台灣應該文明的朝向這個方向去進展"},{"start":233.332,"end":242.576,"text":"謝謝院長,所以我想跟您請教,所以如果您今天去參加原住民的祭儀,我們拿阿美族的豐年祭來講,你們知道什麼時候是可以去參觀的嗎?"},{"start":244.019,"end":246.44,"text":"謝謝院長,那所以您剛才講到了時間,所以觀光相關的單位有掌握到這一些細節嗎?"},{"start":263.584,"end":271.293,"text":"所以當你們在做行銷的時候或做資訊的傳達有沒有考慮到跟確實掌握這些細節這個是我對於這一點來給我們交通部"},{"start":276.65,"end":285.154,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨"},{"start":306.504,"end":335.119,"text":"對不起,那個交通部,你們對這點有所知嗎?是,這個部分,如果要辦旅遊,跟部落相關的部分,或者是跟一些地方文化相關的部分,我們應該是要尊重地方文化。像自行車啊,然後什麼帆船比賽,你們對這個部分有知覺嗎?所以很多的一些活動,像現在賴總統在談的運動觀光,那如果它原本是競技型的比賽,也因為這種競技型的核心概念而展現出觀光的價值,"},{"start":335.939,"end":337.46,"text":"我會尊重地方的文化這個部分我會請他們注意"},{"start":359.465,"end":383.028,"text":"好的,謝謝。那第二個部分我們就談到國家級的那個綠道。那院長如果還有點印象的話本席在上一次的這個質詢也有提到步道那在當時的交通部部長也給本席提到了這個我們國家綠道所以這段時間本席有做了一些功課有關於國家綠道的這個內容那本席這邊想要提醒院長一件事情就是"},{"start":384.569,"end":404.788,"text":"這幾條目前你們有7條未來我不知道還會不會有更多我們期待有更多將臺灣連結起來所以這7條的國家綠廊分別由經濟部、交通部、農業部、原民會、客委會等部會目前在主責推動跟維護管理但是我不知道你們對於這整個步道的"},{"start":405.248,"end":425.722,"text":"整個推展是不是有了解它這個管理方式有沒有導致在推動及維護上缺乏的整體性跟協調性?那這個統一的規劃跟整體的行銷是不是因為事權不一而影響到綠島本身作為全國生態及文化旅遊的一個潛力呢?"},{"start":425.722,"end":428.344,"text":"行政院是不是有考慮到設立跨部會機構"},{"start":429.765,"end":432.966,"text":"如果這幾條的國家級綠道、步道分別這個相關的幾個部會或許真的是實際上是有關的,原住民、客家朋友或是他是經過農地"},{"start":454.972,"end":457.635,"text":"主管機關必須對維護或未來發展作考量。 如果已經形成國家公園整個區域"},{"start":470.31,"end":474.614,"text":"我想基本上事權統一讓他整體推動ratherland而不是每一個部會各行其事好不好"},{"start":493.015,"end":517.543,"text":"好所以接下來這個東西也跟步道有點關係可是是自行車跟步道安全在我們推動的時候那當然自行車也是這種無動力的一種交通工具但是在設施的部分沒有系統性的規劃跟管理那這個本席其實有提到過在環島一號自行車車道跟全國的徒步路網其實有很多遊客或旅客會去走"},{"start":518.183,"end":529.996,"text":"但是北黎公路跟蘇花公路還有很多的隱憂,本席在之前的質詢也提到過,就像自行車道的車道跟騎士和大型車輛的路道"},{"start":533.74,"end":560.165,"text":"共用非常狹小的道路,增加了一些事故的風險。 還有,臺灣的自行車道在連續性、安全性上也很不足。 所以在先前的質詢當中,交通部其實承諾本席解決臺二線上面大卡車跟自行車道征道的問題。 這個問題一直很困擾民眾,也導致了一些交通的隱憂。 不曉得這個部長目前的進度如何?"},{"start":560.868,"end":562.911,"text":"請部長追蹤一下這件事情,具體的設施方案及改善。"},{"start":575.868,"end":604.839,"text":"好那接下來是這個全國環島徒步網的這個問題徒步的旅客也經常會碰到跟自行車一樣的道路狹窄然後最終許多車速過快這有動力的車然後步道連續性不足也是一個問題那針對像行人這樣也跟自行車一樣的弱勢族群我們讓他經常是在一個高風險區域在都會裡面也是一樣然後在城鎮之間也是一樣從一個運輸公平的觀點這個部分不知道"},{"start":605.399,"end":605.419,"text":"﹚市長﹚"},{"start":629.486,"end":649.925,"text":"我看這個畫面應該是花東那邊,確實很多人在行走或者是騎腳踏車甚至是摩托車本席也參加過這些活動我覺得這些部分確實是應該要做比較好的規劃,因為旁邊的車子其實跑得蠻快那如果沒有做比較好的規劃其實對於那些要步行的人來說是相對危險的"},{"start":650.766,"end":651.868,"text":"主席"},{"start":668.45,"end":687.465,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來很快的我們都知道我們要進入高齡化的社會那對於這個高齡人口來講呢這個交通事故中死亡率居高不下那我這邊很直接的提出來就是斑馬線設置的時間過短我相信這個應該現在大家有注意到這一點"},{"start":688.226,"end":710.331,"text":"另外設施不完善在都會裡面一樣那都會外更不用講那很多時候在鄉下也是一樣部落裡面更是有一些那個不是只有連外道路部落裡面就像那個金針山大家上山的那條路是部落裡面很重要的一個生活空間那這種很急速的這個車子跟生活空間"},{"start":710.811,"end":710.831,"text":"臨時評論委員"},{"start":740.306,"end":742.547,"text":"在這個交通目前部落的這個邊坡其實沒有相關的檢視那也就是說ABC的分級跟處理交通部目前沒有資料"},{"start":763.732,"end":785.872,"text":"那所以我在上次提到有關於這個部落的這個邊坡相關的這個問題我們目前沒有下文,所以不知道這個目前的進度如何?我是針對省道跟國道還有鐵路的部分我們邊坡我們都有做管理,但是因為部落大部分是鄉道或者是縣道,那這個部分確實交通部沒有進入去處理這一塊,確實是"},{"start":786.513,"end":787.473,"text":"最後要提到一個很重要的問題"},{"start":814.127,"end":818.735,"text":"是一個免簽政策跟非法滯留的問題,這現在引起了很嚴重的狀況。"},{"start":821.449,"end":848.491,"text":"這其實牽扯到是一個短期的經濟利益跟長期社會成本的一個衝突我想這幾天那本席在這邊也收到很多的投訴我們為了推展觀光然後開放了很多免簽甚至有些國家我們提供了他們補助來台灣為了衝高這個數字但是導致一個很嚴重的問題就是非法滯留請問院長您知道現在非法滯留有多少人嗎?"},{"start":849.472,"end":877.819,"text":"這是非常嚴重的國安問題我會請監管單位把人數跟他們怎麼防範做一個有效的報告本席這邊研究出來的人數至少目前有9萬人這個比例非常的高非法滯留有9萬人那這就是如同你講的是個國安問題所以它不僅是對社會產生很嚴重的問題對我們觀光發展真的是正面的嗎"},{"start":878.899,"end":880.039,"text":"從哪邊付的?我請教這個是不是有包括一些逃逸的移工在內?"},{"start":908.626,"end":908.746,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（17時1分）謝謝主席，我們有請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：院長好，本席今天雖然要來跟院長討論交通的議題，但是本席更關心的是在交通議題後面的一個永續性的問題，也就是我們現在常講的sustainability issue，也有人是說可持續性，這個永續性的議題涉及我們的交通安全、觀光政策還有生活文化的發展，本席希望透過這次的質詢能夠跟各位在議題上有一些分享跟提醒。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：當我們在做觀光發展的時候，我們常會碰到一個問題，就是觀光相關單位的介入跟地方節慶的變質，這會導致生活文化面跟旅遊發展上的兩難，這個部分經常在發展跟文化的保存之間陷入兩難，當然文化也是會流變的，在節慶時的活動基本上是人們相互連結的一個橋梁，讓參與者在體驗的過程當中能夠融入文化。地方節慶在我國有一個很重要的地位，節慶是整個地方的集體記憶、歷史、文化傳統還有社群凝聚的表現，有很重要的內涵跟對這個社群的意義。觀光單位常常在發展觀光的時候跟地方的文化活動來結合，但是在發展過後又沒有永續性的繼續推動。本席想要談的是目的導向的問題，地方節慶通常是當地社會的特定歷史背景、文化習癖或宗教信仰形成的，目的是反映對特定歷史事件、神話及自然現象的理解。但是觀光的節慶常常都是在做商業行銷，考慮如何吸引更多的遊客，然而在介入的過程當中，常常把它混為一談，觀光單位因為缺乏對這些內涵的理解跟尊重，很容易將節慶化成表面上的一種觀光商品，忽略了核心的文化跟社會意義。所以本席想在這邊請教院長，政府在推動觀光的同時，如何確保文化資源不會被過度的商品化？你們是不是有具體的政策來平衡文化的保護跟經濟發展，避免地方節慶失去了文化價值？"],["卓院長榮泰：無論是經濟發展跟觀光，我覺得保存當地的文化特色是應該列為優先的考量，這樣才不會讓一個文化就消滅了。甚至我們在協助或是參與各地這種比較傳統性節慶的時候，也應該遵照他們主辦單位傳統以來的方式，吸引更多人去，是要看過去到現在這種生活記憶的累積，而不是看現在用新的方式去改變他們的生活型態。我們可以在周遭用一些科技的方式來襯托現在社會新型態的方方面面，但是節慶慶典本身文化的保存我覺得這個才是……像全世界有很多文化遺產，他們保存的也是這個精神，臺灣應該文明的朝這個方向去進展。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝院長。我想跟您請教，如果您今天去參加原住民的祭儀，我們拿阿美族的豐年祭來講，你們知道什麼時候是可以去參觀或是可以去參與的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：像我前一陣子到花蓮太巴塱部落去，我是遵照他們的時間，而且我堅持我不要在這個慶典當中上臺講任何的話，我做一個……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝院長。您剛才講到了時間，所以觀光相關的單位有掌握到這些細節嗎？當你們在做行銷的時候，或做資訊的傳達，有沒有考慮到跟確實掌握這些細節？這一點給我們交通部當成一個參考。","另外，在跟活動結合的時候，你們常常要跟人家合作的時候就說我們一起來，然後本來人家的本質、這個活動的本質可能是一種競技比賽，可是當你們介入了之後，之後你們就變成體驗活動，結果把人家原本有的競技比賽給稀釋掉了之後，地方反映的時候你們又說，這不是我們的事情，我們只管體驗，然後競技活動變成別的單位，關於這一點，交通部你們對這一點有所知嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，關於這個部分，如果要辦旅遊，跟部落相關的部分，或者是跟一些地方文化相關的部分，我們應該是要尊重地方文化。"],["林委員倩綺：像自行車、帆船比賽，你們對這個部分有知覺嗎？所以很多的一些活動，像現在賴總統在談的運動觀光，如果它原本是競技型的比賽，也因為這種競技型的核心概念而展現出觀光的價值，在觀光介入之後，不應該去改變它的本質，你們也必須持續的支持，所以這一點我請交通部這邊好好的來了解，在你們內部跨部會的觀光推動上，不是只有觀光署的事情，還有其他相關的單位要一起來推動，所以這一點提出來給你們參考。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會尊重地方的文化，這個部分我會請他們注意。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。第二個部分我們就談到國家級的綠道，院長如果還有點印象的話，本席在上一次的質詢也有提到步道，當時的交通部部長也跟本席提到了我們國家綠道，所以這段時間本席有做了一些功課，有關於國家綠道的內容。本席這邊想要提醒院長一件事情就是，這幾條，目前你們有7條，未來我不知道還會不會有更多，我們期待有更多，將臺灣連結起來，這7條國家綠廊分別由經濟部、交通部、農業部、原民會、客委會等部會目前在主責推動跟維護管理，但是我不知道你們對於這整個步道的推展，是不是有了解它這個管理方式，有沒有導致在推動及維護上缺乏整體性跟協調性？這個統一的規劃跟整體的行銷，是不是因為事權不一而影響到綠道本身作為全國生態及文化旅遊的一個潛力呢？行政院是不是有考慮設立跨部會機構來統籌國家的步道系統，結合地方文化資源，進行永續管理，而不是國發會規劃了之後就丟給大家去執行，然後沒有後面的控管，您的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這幾條的國家級綠道、步道，分別相關的幾個部會，或許真的是實際上是有關原住民、客家朋友或者它是經過農地，如果是這樣子，各個目的事業主管……主管機關必須要對這些的維護或者它的未來發展做一些考量，這個是對的。如果它已經形成，比方說，我們比較可以說的像是國家公園，它的整個區域我們就可以有一個統一的事權來管理……"],["林委員倩綺：國家公園……"],["卓院長榮泰：步道的沿線又比較難這麼做，但是如果我們用觀光的眼光來看，倒是可以請交通部能夠去做一個統合的，但是不一定是完全主管……"],["林委員倩綺：基本上事權統一，讓它整體推動就是rather than……而不是每一個部會各行其是，好不好？","接下來這個東西也跟步道有點關係，可是是自行車跟步道安全，我們在推動的時候，當然自行車也是一種無動力的交通工具，但是在設施的部分，沒有系統性的規劃跟管理，這個本席其實也有提到過，在環島一號自行車車道跟全國的徒步路網，其實有很多遊客或旅客會去走，但是北宜公路跟蘇花公路還有很多的隱憂，這個本席在之前的質詢也提到過，就像自行車道的車道跟大型車輛的路道是共用非常狹小的道路，增加了一些事故的風險，還有，臺灣的自行車道在連續性、安全性上也很不足。所以在先前的質詢當中，交通部承諾本席解決台2線上面大卡車跟自行車爭道的問題，這個問題一直很困擾著民眾，也導致一些交通隱憂，不曉得這個部分，部長，目前的進度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，最近正在討論很多自行車道的問題，但很抱歉，這個部分我確實還沒有聽到他們給我的說法，我會馬上去了解。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。部長是不是追蹤一下這件事情具體的設施方案及改善？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來是全國環島徒步網的問題，徒步的旅客也經常會碰到跟自行車一樣道路狹窄的問題，最重要的是許多有動力的車車速過快，然後步道連續性不足也是一個問題。針對行人跟自行車一樣的弱勢族群，我們讓他們經常在一個高風險區域，在都會裡面也是一樣，在城鎮之間也是一樣。從一個運輸公平的觀點，這個部分不知道交通部是不是有針對徒步路網的安全性做了完善的規劃？另外，你們是不是有計畫的改善道路設計，為徒步的旅客（包括自行車騎士）提供更安全的步道和自行車車道？在都會裡面也是一樣，在城鎮之間的連結也是一樣。不知道部長這邊是不是有一些看法？"],["陳部長世凱：委員在建議這個，我看這個畫面應該是花東那邊，確實很多人在行走或者是騎腳踏車，甚至是摩托車也都有。"],["林委員倩綺：本席也參加過這些活動。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我覺得這些部分確實是應該做比較好的規劃，因為旁邊的車子其實跑得滿快的，如果沒有做比較好的規劃，對於那些要步行的人來說是相對危險的。"],["林委員倩綺：不僅騎士可能沒有路，步行的人更沒有路，最重要的有時候還有一些水溝，最近還有人掉下去，然後也導致了生命的問題，所以也請這個部分一併來考量，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。接下來很快的，我們都知道我們要進入高齡化社會，對於高齡人口來講，交通事故中死亡率居高不下，我這邊很直接的提出來，就是斑馬線設置的時間過短，我相信現在大家應該有注意到這一點，另外設施不完善，在都會裡面一樣，都會外更不用講，很多時候在鄉下也是一樣，部落裡面更是，不是只有聯外道路，在部落裡面，就像金針山大家上山的那條路是部落裡面很重要的一個生活空間，很急速的車子跟生活空間的衝擊，我想這是很嚴重的問題，是不是可以全面檢視一下這種連動性？這個部分不知道交通部目前做到什麼樣的程度？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您剛剛所提到時間比較短的部分，我們現在有推行人時相或者是行人優先時相，就是讓行人先走，車子再往前走，這個部分有在規劃。"],["林委員倩綺：這個在都市裡面，大家現在都有檢視嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員倩綺：但是在城鎮的連動當中，還有部落跟主要幹道的連結，對這個部分，我建議交通部去全面檢視，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：部落大部分是縣道的部分，我們會跟地方政府來協調，看怎麼樣檢視。"],["林委員倩綺：就是那個界面。很重要的一點，上次本席有提過，目前對於部落的邊坡其實沒有相關的檢視，也就是說，A、B、C的分級跟處理，交通部目前沒有資料，所以我在上次提到有關部落邊坡相關的問題，目前都沒有下文，不知道這個進度如何。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對省道跟國道，還有鐵路的部分，邊坡我們都有管理，但是因為部落大部分是鄉道或者是縣道，這個部分確實交通部沒有進入去處理這一塊。"],["林委員倩綺：所以我就為部落請命，我們東海岸很多在中央山脈或各個山頭的部落裡面都會有這樣的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：這個大部分是地方政府會處理。"],["林委員倩綺：是。對於道路，民眾不會去挑這是中央政府或地方政府，問題對民眾來講都是一樣，但是我們如何做？謝謝。","最後我要提到一個很重要的問題，就是免簽政策跟非法滯留的問題，現在這引起了很嚴重的狀況，這其實牽扯到短期的經濟利益跟長期社會成本的衝突。這幾天本席這邊也收到很多投訴，我們為了推展觀光開放了很多免簽，甚至有些國家，我們提供了他們補助來臺灣，為了衝高這個數字，但是導致一個很嚴重的問題，就是非法滯留。請問院長，您知道現在非法滯留有多少人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是非常嚴重的國安問題。"],["林委員倩綺：是，您看是國安的層次了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請境管單位把人數跟他們怎麼防範，做一個有效的報告。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，本席這邊研究出來的這個人數目前至少有9萬人，這個比例非常的高，非法滯留有9萬人，就如同你講的，這是個國安問題，所以它不僅是對社會產生很嚴重的問題，對我們觀光發展真的是正面的嗎？這裡面的細節就是，在今年的3月1號，我們修正了入出國及移民法，也提高了對逾期滯留者的罰款，從1萬塊提升到5萬塊，結果現在大部分的人通通都裝死。我先跟院長請教一下，您知道這些錢是從哪邊付的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請教這些人數是不是有包括一些逃逸的移工在內？"],["林委員倩綺：我講的是觀光的人數，非法滯留的。我在這邊跟您說，我們現在用的是就業安定基金來墊付，很嚴重的問題是在地方上還有很多人用自己的錢先墊付，我們的公務人員用自己的錢先墊付欸！然後半年以後才拿得回來，這是基層很嚴重的問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是這樣，我了解清楚以後跟委員回報。"],["林委員倩綺：這件事情非常的嚴重。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員。","下一位我們請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00008"}}},{"id":"155765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc0217931b170d20408c4b5eba687ce68b1b0999f2bd935aee0ef60d3f33c3fb7abcba85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"16:45:16 - 17:00:47","影片長度":"00:15:31","會議時間":"2024-10-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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那我們有請卓院長卓院長請備詢"},{"start":20.513,"end":45.84,"text":"議員好 院長好 第一個想要問您 總預算目前因為這個進法補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過 那行政院也沒有提出復議 總統也已經宣布了 但在行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關 目前尚未開始審查 我想問一下院長 憲法當中我們提出復議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下"},{"start":47.628,"end":51.93,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":74.258,"end":75.599,"text":"三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式?當然"},{"start":104.278,"end":122.586,"text":"因為第一個我當時認為這個與憲法與法律都有所違背但我們再換個場景如果我當時提復議在大院的部分委員對我的批評又是另外一個那難道你沒有提復議了大家都沒有批評嗎我當時如果提復議一定又是罵得體無完膚"},{"start":123.206,"end":135.61,"text":"所以你是怕被罵所以不提復議的?那你剛剛就是這樣說啊,你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你所以你不提復議,但我剛剛重複問你一遍你又說不是,那是怎麼樣呢?那你覺得現在目前是好的方式嗎?現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了,請問是這樣嗎?"},{"start":145.754,"end":146.154,"text":"﹚徐巧芯﹚徐巧芯﹚"},{"start":158.035,"end":164.34,"text":"請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個是在法律之下按照預算的編列編4萬嗎?還是他是用什麼一個框架之下?"},{"start":186.638,"end":191.741,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":205.748,"end":226.807,"text":"那我請問一下,你這個是在禁法補償條例裡面提升到4萬,是這樣嗎?跟您做個確認。如果當時的協商,當時在法律討論的時候,修法的時候,行政的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。好,那了解了,所以你現在是這麼講嘛。但是問題是,我們今天,我再問你一個問題,如果是釋憲的話,"},{"start":228.408,"end":236.617,"text":"您會徵求徵詢賴總統的意見嗎?或者到目前為止您有沒有針對《禁法補償條例》跟賴總統進行過討論?我們在不復議的時候有跟總統報告,因為復議要經過總統同意我才能復議。所以總統不支持提出復議?"},{"start":248.719,"end":255.524,"text":"所以你不提出復議的時候,你向總統做了說明嘛,那總統的態度是什麼呢?"},{"start":255.524,"end":268.413,"text":"尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。 好,那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?"},{"start":269.534,"end":279.817,"text":"我當然基於政治的倫理。 是,你會再向總統報告,所以到時候如果你釋憲的話,我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲?"},{"start":279.817,"end":290.621,"text":"不必這麼理解,這行政院基於行政院的職權、立場,我們總統報告我們的決定。 對,那總統如果告訴你說,我不同意你們去釋憲,那你會尊重總統嗎?"},{"start":292.418,"end":310.083,"text":"我跟總統會講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出副委員,但我還是希望我不必做這種報告。 是啦,我在跟你討論嘛,我在跟你做各種討論嘛,因為這都有可能發生,因為事先這兩個字不排除事先是您說的呀,不然我也不會問您這個問題不是嗎?"},{"start":311.883,"end":314.665,"text":"施憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各方的權利。 我說在不得已的情況下,我必須考慮。"},{"start":329.458,"end":330.439,"text":"那我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場"},{"start":357.896,"end":371.582,"text":"如果總統說不的話,您會下台嗎?如果總統有其他的意見,他會跟我交換意見,但是那個結論不是現在我只能跟您報告的。沒有,我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換,所以如果總統反對釋憲的話,您會下台嗎?"},{"start":375.687,"end":395.247,"text":"總統反對釋憲的話對,就是您說您要釋憲,但總統說他反對總統不必反對釋憲,總統叫我下台我就下台了好,就你這句話那接下來我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情說可以去編那請問在當時在討論進法補償條例的時候您有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎?"},{"start":396.528,"end":399.432,"text":"請問這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的,那他們人在哪裡,在做什麼?"},{"start":415.472,"end":440.533,"text":"對,他們是民進黨黨籍,那他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法,所以我再重複一次,這件事情不是政黨的立場。來,他們提出的版本是幾萬元?提出6萬元,請問行政院有向他們去做溝通嗎?有,然後結果呢?那你知道整個民進黨有多少的比例的委員有做連署嗎?我知道。多少?"},{"start":442.117,"end":446.06,"text":"總共有好像七十幾位同意吧?沒有那麼多啦,七十幾位。 七十幾位!"},{"start":450.663,"end":454.806,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":479.178,"end":479.778,"text":"就是大家討論過6萬的版本"},{"start":509.127,"end":529.105,"text":"是誰的版本提案委員的版本我應該沒記錯是吳立華委員的版本不是啊是陳寅委員的版本陳寅委員的版本才是6萬高精素美委員的版本不是6萬比6萬少更接近您的目標跟方向"},{"start":529.645,"end":547.535,"text":"高金素美委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元﹖我相信也有人去跟他溝通﹖所以是5萬元﹖更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標﹖可是當時我在立法院的現場﹖我看到了什麼呢﹖我看到了既然民進黨提了6萬的版本﹖"},{"start":548.656,"end":549.377,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":566.761,"end":592.077,"text":"這就是我們現在覺得非常非常尷尬的地方嘛!那這兩個人是怎麼回事?那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們!欸!我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投!我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民!在五萬跟六萬之間選擇了六萬去支持原住民!結果你現在告訴我說你們可以騙了四萬!我們原本支持高金素美委員的版本還比較接近行政院欸!"},{"start":593.118,"end":610.422,"text":"這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎 院長 這不是政黨的問題 我沒有說這是政黨的問題 它就是因為不是政黨的問題 所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊 不是政黨的問題就不必一直提多少民進黨的委員的問題"},{"start":610.822,"end":630.499,"text":"沒有沒有我只是想要告訴你說他就是超越黨派的民進黨很多人支持國民黨也很多人支持然後我們當下看到既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持我們就來支持跨黨派的版本支持民進黨結果原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了只能4萬不早講啊"},{"start":631.52,"end":631.54,"text":"陳部長請備詢"},{"start":653.932,"end":674.404,"text":"議題到這邊,因為還有一點時間,我要問一下部長,我們這次電價調整,總體而言會影響到哪一些交通大眾交通工具?只要有用到電都會影響到?都會影響,那有哪一些大眾交通工具?像台鐵的部分,我們會每年增加多少經費?"},{"start":679.025,"end":706.515,"text":"我印象中他們給我的數據很像是3億還是2億多。不是,是4.56億。那高鐵呢?我還沒有看到他們的數據。高鐵沒有看到數據?部長這樣不行喔,因為李昆澤委員之前在質詢的時候,他PowerPoint上面都有,在交通委員會,是3.6億。那請問北捷每年會增加多少億?委員,這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部講。這沒有很多,北捷、高鐵、台鐵、桃園、基捷、高捷,這沒有很多。"},{"start":708.116,"end":712.422,"text":"可是最近講了電價這是攸關民生的大事啊而且我剛剛說了先前在李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候他後面大大的powerpoint就已經把這些東西都寫出來了"},{"start":722.555,"end":737.618,"text":"所以你應該是看過這些資報的我很確定我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢啊所以不能說這不能說您做交通部長我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧那我來問這次叫電費的調漲請問部長一下台北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業哪一種的系統運輸業都市的吧"},{"start":752.52,"end":771.738,"text":"大眾捷運系統運輸業那漲幅是百分之多少?我知道台鐵跟高鐵是百分之14但是北捷我不知道一樣是百分之14所以捷運它都是屬於百分之14跟台鐵還有高鐵一樣"},{"start":772.827,"end":782.633,"text":"但是有另外一種分類,您應該很清楚,只有7%﹐高捷等捷運少了一半,那是哪一類的運輸系統?"},{"start":788.381,"end":802.915,"text":"陸上運輸系統,部長、院長您就這就對了嘛,好,院長顯然是比較熟悉喔,這些呢,比如說管道啊、人力車啊、蓄力車或纜車這種用電比較少的,其實你們反而漲它漲比較少,只漲了7%。"},{"start":807.32,"end":834.534,"text":"部長您現在了解了嗎?他們漲價的邏輯,他們針對這種用電比較衰退,產業比較衰退的反而是漲的比較少,然後人多的反而是比較多。所以你的那個大眾,就是比如說你現在的列管,你的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類?我覺得你部長你最基本應該要去做了解。所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常的多人,包含海警、警保都一樣。我是說你最基本,最基礎要去做一個了解嘛。"},{"start":835.034,"end":852.591,"text":"那我想問一下,就是剛剛其實就是院長所說的,我覺得啊,現在很多的,你剛剛那些都答不出來,我就不問你細節了。現在很多的話,比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本,他呢,從漲電價之後,從13%增加到16%,而且臺北捷運的電費就佔他的成本的13%。"},{"start":859.418,"end":886.514,"text":"所以我必須要講說一年上億次的人流在漲了電費之後對他們而言真的有很大的壓力那是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運我們就講捷運就好了對捷運包含桃園、台中、高雄、台北都有捷運能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼否則的話今年台電要跟我們要2000億的補貼我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去"},{"start":887.746,"end":900.551,"text":"報告委員 三個原則 第一個 這個 電價的調整 第一個是反映台電的成本 發電成本 第二個是使用者付費 第三個是對於營運比較 不是那麼健全的 我們漲幅比較少 所以它是7%"},{"start":902.084,"end":902.965,"text":"好,謝謝徐委員。謝謝卓院長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（16時45分）謝謝副院長，我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長好。第一個想要問您的是，總預算目前因為禁伐補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過，行政院也沒有提出覆議，總統也已經公布了，但行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關，目前尚未開始審查。我想問一下院長，在憲法中我們提出覆議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院認為有窒礙難行的時候。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒錯，第三條規定，行政院對立法院決議之法律案，如果認為有窒礙難行之處，得經總統核可，移請覆議。所以「於心不忍」絕對不是一個送不送覆議案的理由，院長您同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，您不知道那天在餐會上的現場為什麼我講出這樣的話。"],["徐委員巧芯：那請說說。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時是說，當時行政院沒有提出覆議，所以現在我們在談這件事情好像在法上站不住腳，我是說那時候很多人都要我提覆議……"],["徐委員巧芯：那您怎麼不提呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為我可以跟大院來談，我們用其他的方式來解決這個問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然……"],["徐委員巧芯：當下如果您覺得窒礙難行，就應該要依照憲法來提出覆議，為什麼你不這麼做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為第一個，我當時認為這個與憲法及法律都有所違背，我們再換個場景，如果我當時提覆議，大院的部分委員對我的批評又會是另外一個，我不提覆議，現在是這樣的講法……"],["徐委員巧芯：難道你沒有提覆議，大家就沒有批評了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當初如果提覆議，一定又是罵的體無完膚。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你是怕被罵，所以不提覆議的？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我認為我們有好的方法……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你剛剛就是這樣說啊！你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你，所以你不提覆議。但我剛剛重複問你一遍，你又說不是，那是怎麼樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我剛剛說了，我認為我們可以有好的方式可以好好地談，來解決這個問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：你覺得目前是好的方式嗎？現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了，請問是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說那是萬不得已的時候，我還是非常不願意……"],["徐委員巧芯：萬不得已？你覺得什麼時候是萬不得已？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是非常不願意，如果我們得不到一個好的解決方法，比方我說只要未來不要用這種提議或立法的方式來……"],["徐委員巧芯：只要未來？"],["卓院長榮泰：嗯，以後。"],["徐委員巧芯：以後？在您執政以後？好，那我想問一下，最近您講到禁伐補償並非一毛不編，可以編4萬，請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個，是在法律之下按照預算的編列去編4萬嗎？還是在什麼框架之下？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個答復，第一點，我為什麼說行政院不是一毛不編，因為黃國昌委員說我們是一毛不編。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個，為什麼我說編4萬？因為依照預算法第九十一條，立法院對預算的歲出、歲入有所變更的時候，必須徵詢行政院的意見。當時我就說，如果我們衡量所有的狀況，由3萬調整到4萬，行政院是同意的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我請問一下，你這個是在禁伐補償條例裡面提升到4萬，是這樣嗎？跟您做個確認。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時的協商、當時在法律討論的時候、修法的時候，行政院的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，瞭解了，所以你現在是這麼講嘛，但問題是今天我們……我再問您一個問題，如果是釋憲的話，您會徵求、徵詢賴總統的意見嗎？或者到目前為止，您有沒有針對禁伐補償條例跟賴總統討論過？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在不覆議的時候有跟總統報告，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：不覆議的時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為覆議要經過總統同意，我才能提覆議。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以總統不支持提出覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說我不提出覆議，我就講……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你不提出覆議的時候，你向總統做了說明嘛，那總統的態度是什麼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統當然尊重行政院的……"],["徐委員巧芯：尊重行政院？所以他也認為你不提出覆議這件事情他是認同的？"],["卓院長榮泰：他認為這個部分行政院有職權，我們依職權決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，接下來如果你再走到所謂最後一步，也就是釋憲與否的時候，你會再去向總統報告？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，基於政治的倫理，覆議……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，你會再向總統報告，所以到時候如果你提釋憲的話，我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：不必這麼理解，這是行政院基於行政院的職權、立場，我們向總統報告我們的決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，那總統如果告訴你說「我不同意你們去釋憲」，你會尊重總統嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟總統講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出覆議，在我……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果總統還是說不要……"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是希望，委員，我還是希望我不必做這種報告，我還是希望我們可以透過……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啦，我在跟你討論嘛，我在跟你做各種討論嘛，因為這都有可能發生，因為釋憲這兩個字、不排除釋憲是您說的呀，不然我也不會問您這個問題，不是嗎？所以我問嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：釋憲兩個字……"],["徐委員巧芯：不排除釋憲這幾個字是您說的吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：釋憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各機關的權力……"],["徐委員巧芯：那您是不是今天、昨天這兩天都有談到最後不排除釋憲，有沒有這件事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說在不得已的情況之下我必須考慮……"],["徐委員巧芯：不得已？好，不得已的情況，在不得已的情況下不排除釋憲。那您剛剛說了，如果不排除釋憲，要釋憲的話，您會向總統報告，基於政治倫理，也就是說，如果最後走到了真的不得已的那一步，你去提了釋憲，是賴總統所同意的，可以這樣解讀嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是我所決定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是你所決定，但賴總統同意。如果總統一直告訴你說「不行，我堅決反對」，你會跟總統硬槓到底嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果總統說「不」的話，你會下臺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果總統有其他的意見，他會跟我交換意見，但是那個結論不是現在我所能跟您報告的。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換，如果總統反對釋憲的話，您會下臺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統反對釋憲的話？"],["徐委員巧芯：對，就是您說您要釋憲，但總統說他反對。"],["卓院長榮泰：總統不必反對釋憲，總統叫我下臺，我就下臺了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，就你這句話。","接下來，我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情可以去編，請問當時在討論禁伐補償條例的時候，你有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟民進黨黨團，有請他們……"],["徐委員巧芯：你跟民進黨黨團溝通？來，我們看一下照片，好不好？請問您知道這兩位立法委員是哪一個黨籍的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我跟很多委員報告過，這件事情不是黨派之分，不是政黨之分。"],["徐委員巧芯：這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的，請問他們人在哪裡？在做什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，他們是民進黨黨籍，他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法，所以我……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們提出的版本是幾萬元？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再重複一次，這件事情不是政黨的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，他們提出的版本是幾萬元？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們有提出6萬元。"],["徐委員巧芯：提出6萬元，請問行政院有向他們溝通嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：有？然後結果呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們就是認為他們應該可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你知道整個民進黨有多少比例的委員有連署嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：總共好像七十幾位同意吧。"],["徐委員巧芯：唉，沒有那麼多啦，七十幾位？"],["卓院長榮泰：總共啦，總共。"],["徐委員巧芯：七十幾位？你確定？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是這個提案在表決的時候，我忘記了……"],["徐委員巧芯：七十幾位？我們立法院113個立委，如果七十幾個民進黨的立法委員的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我說全部。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我問的是民進黨！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這不是政黨的立場……"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在只請問，你只要回答我的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有一一去數人頭。"],["徐委員巧芯：您只要回答我的問題就好。請問民進黨有多少個立法委員有連署6萬元的這個法案？6萬喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道，我沒有去數人頭。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不知道，對不對？那我告訴你，好不好？總共有60%，有33位的立法委員，來，我們看一下有哪些人喔，33位的立法委員加入了提案的連署，占了民進黨立法委員的六成。"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們國民黨最後支持的版本，您應該很清楚，我們支持的是誰的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是大家討論過6萬的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：是誰的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：提案委員的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一位委員？"],["卓院長榮泰：我應該沒記錯，是伍麗華委員的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：並不是啊，是陳瑩委員的版本。"],["卓院長榮泰：喔，陳瑩委員的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：陳瑩委員的版本才是6萬，高金素梅委員的版本不是6萬，比6萬少，更接近您的目標跟方向，高金素梅委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元，我相信也有人去跟他溝通，所以是5萬元，更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標。可是當時我在現場，我在立法院的現場，我看到了什麼呢？我看到了既然民進黨提出6萬的版本，乾脆多給原住民一些幫助好了，我就支持了民進黨，結果沒想到你現在告訴我說你們有溝通，你有去找過民進黨黨團溝通，然後民進黨黨團應該也要跟這些委員講，他們提了6萬，還有六成的民進黨立委支持，那你今天怎麼跟我們立法院說有溝通呢？這就是我們現在覺得非常、非常尷尬的地方嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們透過民進黨黨團有清楚地表達行政院的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：那這兩個人是怎麼回事？那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們，欸，我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投，我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民，在5萬跟6萬之間選擇了6萬去支持原住民，結果你現在告訴我說你們可以編4萬，我們原本支持的高金素梅委員版本還比較接近行政院！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我再說一次……"],["徐委員巧芯：這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎？院長，天大的烏龍啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我再強調一次，這不是政黨的問題，這是這件事情該不該的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有說這是政黨的問題，就是因為不是政黨的問題，所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是政黨的問題，就不必一直提有多少個民進黨委員的說法。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有、沒有，我只是想要告訴你說，它就是超越黨派的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：民進黨很多人支持，國民黨也很多人支持，然後我們當下看到，既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持，我們就來支持跨黨派的版本，支持民進黨，結果，原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了，只能4萬，不早講啊！早講問題就不會發生了，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有跟民進黨黨團表達過清楚的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：那這兩個人到底是怎麼回事啊？你們以後是不是……我真的覺得很荒謬，我還有很多問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在如果委員有這樣的想法……"],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議會我們的貴賓 請我們左院長以及交通部部長左院長還有交通部部長備詢吳委員好"},{"start":31.464,"end":57.056,"text":"委員長好、副長好、委員長辛苦了。 我們的新的執政團隊來到第二個會期了。 那台灣各項的經濟指標也都有突破性的表現。 今年的IMD的競爭力也排名全球第八。 我們也超越了美國、日本、韓國、中國、台灣各項的公共建設也逐漸的完成。 本席在這邊也給予肯定。"},{"start":58.197,"end":79.089,"text":"但院長臺灣目前面臨一個非常嚴重的問題就是詐騙還有毒品的氾濫首先我們都針對詐騙的問題跟院長來做討論從警政署的數據來看去年的詐騙案件數量37000多件那比前年增加了8000多件"},{"start":79.738,"end":99.164,"text":"那投資的詐騙案件增加了5000多件那今天刑事級召開記者會打擊詐騙方面政府破獲的詐騙集團有1000多件那不法所得來到71億那投資詐騙乃是民眾財產損失的第一名那本市認為政府應該"},{"start":100.644,"end":100.905,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":124.275,"end":143.76,"text":"談到詐騙,我們感同身受,也謝謝大院通過了打詐的新釋法。新的這個釋法通過之後,我們還有19個執法必須要通過。我已經要求各相關的部會,緊速地把19個執法,讓它在最短的時間內也能夠如數地通過。"},{"start":144.86,"end":165.269,"text":"四個大的詐騙的打詐的法律加上19個執法這部機器才能整個動起來動起來之後我們第一個我們會提高刑責我們可以溯源到打詐的源頭我們可以對平台這些不使廣告的平台要求他落地要求他負責"},{"start":166.271,"end":166.291,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":195.168,"end":218.471,"text":"主觀的感受跟實際上的受害是不一樣的有的他認為我被騙了一千萬事實上他沒有被騙只是有人在騙他但是我們也把他放進去就讓大家知道詐騙、橫行是社會一個事實國際也是如此那現在我們手上有這個法律的利器我們充足人員充足設備一定要在最短的時間內跟詐騙集團再做一次最大的宣戰"},{"start":219.232,"end":234.325,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝,謝謝院長,因為詐騙,這在國人的心目中,大家都是非常厭惡,所以這個我們的所有的程序上一定要速度一定要快,好,謝謝,那再來就是針對毒品,"},{"start":235.006,"end":251.811,"text":"毒品我看這幾年年齡層的下降,很多青少年吸食毒品的狀況。 那我們針對我們現在要來重視現在新北市就發生了兩起毒價,尤其山蟲分級跟土層分級,員工信職都是在晚上執勤勤務時,"},{"start":258.593,"end":287.288,"text":"遭到獨駕惡意開車衝撞不幸性質,令臺灣人感到非常不捨。 去年在立法院刪除通過刑法明確獨駕認定的標準,貫徹對獨駕行為是零容忍的政策,但我們現在發現獨駕的問題不單只增加行者就能以賀止,有許多不同種類像新興的毒品出現,這兩起的案件都是使用"},{"start":287.868,"end":287.888,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":308.806,"end":315.233,"text":"執行公務應供訓指,我們一定給予最好的一些撫恤,但是更重要的是針對這些毒品,"},{"start":330.641,"end":358.032,"text":"從它的製毒、販毒、運毒等等我們做有系列的管控那毒品是必須經過毒品審議委員會來把它分級分類那伊多米子前不久我們把它列為第三級的毒品也是第四級的禁制藥品那現在如果它要做一個更動的話也必須經過審議委員會但是無論如何我們面對這些新興的毒品相當的氾濫什麼咖啡包、彩虹包、彩虹菸等等"},{"start":358.972,"end":382.68,"text":"會到青少年造成很大的誘惑所以我們在幾次檢警調線的整個通力的防堵當中我們都已經把這些新的毒品跟它的這個充斥社會的方式都做了相當大的研議未來我們希望能夠朝這個方向在有法令以及毒品分類快速的進行的情況底下我們希望檢警調線能夠負起更多的責任"},{"start":384.683,"end":401.813,"text":"對,謝謝院長,是希望說能把它提升為二級毒品,這樣不然外面這個毒品,新興的毒品是真的非常地氾濫,這一點都值得我們去探討。 然後再來就是有關於毒品存放的問題,"},{"start":403.001,"end":420.63,"text":"我跟院長來討論一下,因為本席也是調查及後案毒品處理流程的監督委員的顧問。目前了解司法機關查獲的數量逐漸增加,就今年5月23,新竹市警察局跟破獲粽子大麻"},{"start":421.45,"end":446.958,"text":"自賭工廠事件查扣大碼4519株, 也是目前偵破有史以來最大的大碼溫室。 因此吊牙籍持續在空間不足的存放, 毒品證物情形發生,光是近年來入庫統計數量逐漸增加, 都有賴於司法同仁加強的查緝打擊不法。"},{"start":447.538,"end":449.24,"text":"沒錯,調查局已經在今年的年初"},{"start":472.108,"end":472.168,"text":"對,就盡量向"},{"start":503.132,"end":520.479,"text":"這麼龐大的大碼就直接來做銷毀就不用再入庫那這樣也減輕我們一些同仁他們的辛勞謝謝好那院長你先回座好了我跟部長來討論一下我地方的建設好你先回座好部長針對建築機械"},{"start":527.711,"end":543.59,"text":"工程重機械,因為我們都知道有內政部編類編管範圍,因為臺灣地理環境的原因,因此遇到重大的風災、地震相關的天災,他們都要投入救災的行列,可見他們對國家實質上的貢獻。"},{"start":547.275,"end":556.492,"text":"本席在上個會期也說過他們需要一個合法的停放的空間,但本席召開多次的會議,邀請內政部、交通部、經濟部、農業部相關的單位討論。"},{"start":559.704,"end":559.724,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":577.197,"end":577.217,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":593.423,"end":593.683,"text":"吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員"},{"start":614.804,"end":614.864,"text":"吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員"},{"start":633.067,"end":657.206,"text":"報告委員過去一直沒有主管機關那交通部也沒有接下來的原因是雖然他有輪子但是他算是重型機械那比較有相關的是因為他大部分是在做營造的工程所以跟營造業是比較相關的所以過去的這個交通部也沒有把它列為是汽車因為一般的汽車像剛剛委員在說的停車場對我們來講的定義是停放不一定是停車因為他不是車"},{"start":657.927,"end":657.947,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":684.781,"end":704.736,"text":"委員有說11月15日我們要來開一個會那我會請交通部的同仁大家先彙整各部會的意見之外就是說相關的因為他們應該有工協會相關的工協會的意見我們也會彙整起來然後11月15日大家來開會再來討論這個未來看要怎麼處理他的停放的問題"},{"start":705.882,"end":728.301,"text":"好的好的謝謝謝謝部長還是部長比較有擔當因為這是從以前到現在你看啊任何的風災任何的災害都是需要用到這種機械包含我們現在捷運包含你現在蓋大樓也都是要用得到那用得到他們的停放的位置又有問題"},{"start":729.582,"end":753.832,"text":"那這是全國性喔,所以變成他們也是很無奈,所以在去年來我這邊陳情,我也跟他開過兩次協調會,所以我才要拜託部長是不是能扛起這個我們來召集會議,由交通部來做召集好不好?好,我們就11月15號,我們11月15號來開這個會好不好?"},{"start":757.594,"end":784.683,"text":"好的好謝謝謝謝那再來呢再來是針對我地方的建設針對我們土城、三峽還有大溪龍潭這六五的延伸那六五延伸因為這條六五真的是一個必要性因為你現在從土城的工業區土城工業區現在目前就有300多家他一年的產值有1000多億"},{"start":786.38,"end":787.221,"text":"吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員"},{"start":814.451,"end":814.651,"text":"吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員"},{"start":841.101,"end":854.769,"text":"會列入山峽跟土層為優先路段﹚可行性評估﹚113年1月30日上網招標﹚4月30節6月27日召開會議﹚辦理可行性期出報告﹚目前已在8月1日完成﹚預計明年114年3月中期出"},{"start":867.356,"end":878.474,"text":"其中報告那我是要拜託部長因為這一條的延伸真的是非常的重要也拜託院長那是不是由部長"},{"start":879.434,"end":879.954,"text":"因為這一條是非常急迫"},{"start":907.506,"end":908.486,"text":"吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員"},{"start":939.701,"end":942.167,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（16時29分）主席、與會的貴賓。請卓院長以及交通部部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有交通部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：院長好、部長好。院長，辛苦了，我們新的執政團隊來到第2個會期了，臺灣各項的經濟指標也都有突破性的表現，今年IMD的競爭力排名全球第8，我們也超越了美國、日本、韓國、中國，臺灣各項的公共建設也逐漸地完成，本席在這邊也給予肯定。但院長，臺灣目前面臨非常嚴重的問題就是詐騙還有毒品的氾濫，首先，我們針對詐騙的問題跟院長來做討論。","從警政署的數據來看，去年的詐騙案件數量三萬七千多件，比前年增加了八千多件；投資的詐騙案件增加了五千多件。今天刑事局召開記者會說明，在打擊詐騙方面，政府破獲的詐騙集團有一千多件，不法所得來到71億，投資詐騙仍是民眾財產損失的第一名，本席認為政府應該加強打擊力道，守護民眾財產的安全。我們要如何來終止詐騙的行為，這真的是臺灣目前民眾最大的詬病，每個民眾講到詐騙，大家都咬牙切齒，請院長來做個說明，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。談到詐騙，我們感同身受，也謝謝大院通過了打詐的新四法，新四法通過之後，我們還有19個子法必須要通過，我已經要求各相關的部會儘速地把19個子法，在最短的時間內也能夠如數地通過。4個大的打詐的法律，加上19個子法，這部機器才能整個動起來。動起來之後，第一個會提高刑責，我們可以溯源到打詐的源頭，對這些不實廣告的平臺，要求它落地、要求它負責；我們有更多的利器，可以去準備一些科技偵防的設備、器具，來針對這些詐騙集團。這樣下來之後，我們現在開始，在所有的子法完備之後，我們會更有利器來面對這些。","打詐的數字現在每天在打詐的儀表板上面都會呈現出來，它呈現的是比較多，因為我們對於計算統計的方式是如實地呈現，但實際上，主觀的感受跟實際上受害是不一樣的，有的認為自己被騙了1,000萬，事實上，他沒有被騙，只是有人在騙他，但是我們也放進去，讓大家知道詐騙橫行是社會一個事實，國際也是如此。現在我們手上有法律的利器，我們充足人員、充足設備，一定要在最短的時間內，跟詐騙集團再做一次最大的宣戰。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝院長。因為詐騙在國人的心目中，大家都是非常厭惡，所以我們所有的程序上速度一定要快，謝謝。","再來就是針對毒品，我看這幾年吸毒年齡層下降，很多青少年有吸食毒品的狀況，我們要來重視。在新北市就發生了兩起毒駕，尤其三重分局跟土城分局員警因公殉職，都是在晚上值勤時遭到毒駕惡意開車衝撞，不幸殉職，令臺灣人感到非常地不捨。","我們去年在立法院三讀通過刑法，明確毒駕認定的標準，貫徹對毒駕行為是零容忍的政策，但我們現在發現毒駕的問題不單只增加刑責就能予以嚇阻，有許多不同種類，像新興的毒品的出現，最近兩起的案件都是使用俗稱喪屍煙彈以及依托咪酯，而目前此毒品都列為三級毒品，光是這半年就有3起員警遭受到毒駕撞死的案件發生，依其目前造成社會危險性、成癮性、氾濫的程度，本席提議是不是把它提為二級毒品？請院長來支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們非常痛心員警因為執行公務因公殉職，我們一定給予最好的撫卹，但是更重要的是針對這些毒品，從製毒、販毒、運毒等等，我們做有系列的管控。毒品必須經過毒品審議委員會來分級、分類，前不久我們把依托咪酯列為第三級毒品，也是第四級的禁制藥品，現在如果要做更動，也必須經過審議委員會，但無論如何，面對這些相當氾濫的新興毒品，像是咖啡包、彩虹包、彩虹菸等等，會讓青少年造成很大的誘惑，所以在幾次檢、警、調、憲通力的防堵，我們已經把這些新的毒品跟它們充斥社會的方式，都做了相當大的研議。未來我們希望能夠朝這個方向，在有法令以及毒品分類快速進行的情況底下，希望檢、警、調、憲能夠負起更多的責任。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，謝謝院長。本席希望能把它提升為二級毒品，不然外面新興毒品真的是非常氾濫，這一點值得我們探討。","再來，有關毒品存放的問題，跟院長討論一下，因為本席也是調查局獲案毒品處理流程監督委員會的顧問，就目前瞭解，司法機關查獲的數量逐年增加；今年5月23日，新竹市警察局更破獲種植大麻製毒工廠的事件，查獲大麻4,519株，也是目前有史以來偵破最大的大麻溫室。因此調查局持續發生空間不足存放毒品證物的情形，光是近年來入庫統計數量逐年增加，這都有賴於司法同仁的加強查緝、打擊不法、守護國門。雖然目前成立臨時毒庫可以緊急應變，但長期以來無法因應，應有解決的方案，若查獲巨量的毒品，可以用專案銷燬方式來處理，是不是請院長跟相關單位來做研議、討論，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，調查局今年年初已經在勤務大樓設置了第一跟第二毒品臨時的庫房，但是查獲的數量越來越多……"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以調查局內部的毒品處理流程監督會有建議用專案銷燬的方式，現在調查局正跟臺高檢來做研商，如何透過法定的程序，讓它能夠往這個方向去處理，以消化這些臨時倉庫所無法容納的問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，像這麼龐大的大麻就直接銷燬，不用再入庫，這樣也減輕同仁的辛勞。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。好，院長你先回座好了，我跟部長討論一下地方的建設。好，你先回座。"],["卓院長榮泰：我在這裡沒問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。部長，針對建築機械、工程重機械，我們都知道由內政部編管範圍，因為臺灣的地理環境，因此遇到重大的風災、地震及相關天災，它們都要投入救災的行列，可見它們對國家實質上的貢獻。本席在上個會期也說過，它們需要一個合法的停放空間，但本席召開多次會議邀請內政部、交通部、經濟部、農業部相關單位討論，發現都找不到任何一個負責的主管機關，最後有幾個部會都一致推舉交通部來負責，認為較為適合，因為它們有輪子嘛，是不是也拜託院長來統合，是不是交通部能來統合、啟動？因為這存在已久，所有的公共工程、所有的建設都要用到這些重型的機械，包含天災以及各種事件發生都需要用到，但是我們不能把它們停車的問題置於不管。只要有目的事業主管機關願意出來扛這個責任，它們未來也不會排擠到一般停車場、一般的停車位，因為它們都是在自己的土地，但過去都沒有一個輔導單位，變成它們都面臨被開罰這個問題是不是由部長來說明？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，過去一直沒有主管機關，而交通部也沒有接下來的原因是，雖然它有輪子，但算是重型機械。比較相關的是，因為它大部分是做營造工程，所以跟營造業是比較相關的。過去交通部也沒有把它列為汽車，因為一般的汽車，像剛剛委員說的停車場，對我們來講的定義是停放，不一定是停車，因為它不是車。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["陳部長世凱：不是車，是重型機械。委員長期關心這部分，也召集過其他各部會大家來討論，但也確實還沒找到到底誰有辦法當主管機關。雖然它做營造的比較多，這個機械是做營造比較多，理論上內政部營建署會相對有些關係。至於停放問題，可能大家覺得有裝輪子，所以可能跟交通部有關係。但沒關係，委員說11月15日要開會……"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["陳部長世凱：我會請交通部同仁先彙整各部會意見之外，相關的……因為他們應該有公協會，所以相關公協會的意見我們也會彙整起來，然後11月15日大家開會再來討論，看未來要怎麼處理它停放的問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，謝謝部長，還是部長比較有擔當。從以前到現在，你看，任何風災、任何災害都需要用到這種重機械，包含捷運，包含蓋大樓，也都要用到。雖然用得到，但它們的停放位置又有問題，且是全國性問題，讓他們也很無奈，於是去年來我這邊陳請，我開過兩次協調會。我要拜託部長，是不是能扛起責任，由交通部來召集會議，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。跟委員報告，11月15日我們來開這個會，好不好？"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，謝謝。","再來，針對地方建設，針對土城、三峽、大溪、龍潭的65延伸道路的問題。這條65道路真的有其必要性，因為現在土城工業區三百多家廠商，一年產值有一千多億，造成整個交通混亂。目前土城工業區只有一條中山路，未來樹林、三峽因人口暴增，車流量暴增；那邊又有兩個重劃區，一個大柑園，一個麥仔園，還有三峽北大，一年人口成長一萬多人，讓交通面臨非常嚴重的瓶頸，若要上北二高的話，交通更是大打結。過去我拜託過公共工程會吳澤成主委，連續開了7次會議，終於和包含桃園、新北各縣市達成共識，現在也列入三峽、土城的優先路段。在可行性評估上，113年1月30日已經上網招標，4月30日決標，6月27日召開會議辦理可行性評估的期初報告，目前已在8月1日完成，預計明年（114年）3月中提出期中報告。由於這條道路的延伸真的非常重要，所以我要拜託部長，同時也拜託院長，是不是請部長幫忙？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望在這條道路的可行性評估過程能加快速度，最快應該是115年可以完成評估；評估完畢之後，當然就是加速進行，像路廊部分目前也正在討論，公路局已經跟水利署、新北市政府，還有桃園市政府，正在研商可行的路廊部分，所以進度都還在大家原本設定的方向上。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為這條路真的非常急迫，所以在這邊我要特別拜託。還有，萬大線增加了106億，萬大二期增加了220億及新北環狀線增加了429億，現在國發會就萬大線二期正在審議中，萬大線一期、環狀線都在內政部，到時候也拜託部長。謝謝院長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝卓院長。","委員陳秀寳之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳秀寳書面質詢：","1、美港公路綜合規劃應積極辦理","本席於卓院長及李部長甫上任時就追蹤美港公路進度，至第二會期交通部改由陳部長接任，希望陳部長能回應彰化鄉親訴求，盡速辦理美港公路高架化之綜合規劃作業。","目前美港公路高架化綜合評估辦理情形如何？建設計畫預計核定時程？","本席希望交通部辦應定時揭露計畫辦理進度，以利本席向彰化關心的民眾加以說明。","2、針對試辦負載國際貨櫃之貨櫃車進磅一案，應配合航港局貨櫃重量動態顯示系統建置完成，以維貨櫃貨運業者之權益。","3、針對20呎貨櫃研擬放寬重量限制一案，應全面檢視現有限制並與貨櫃貨運業者溝通擬定，共同制定符合國際規範及各行業期望之規定。"],["主席：下一位請徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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農政把中央竄稅的時候,95年到112年,兩千六百二十七億,但是他跟中央拿了三千五百八十九億,黨議中央給予九百六十幾億。"},{"start":130.331,"end":154.284,"text":"這個問題在哪裡呢?就是我們的財政收支花分了,同仇分配款。財政越低的時候你創惠,他沒有多分給你,反而幫你扣下來。所以我在強調這個問題,就是希望你的中央能了解這個問題。不管現在財政都被控管,我們財政非常的困難,非常的絕境。"},{"start":155.91,"end":176.176,"text":"這裏有一個觀念,就是我們地方越發表越多創作,我們越搬越少,所以我今天站在這裏,以我參與你代表的總計30名議員,我了解所有地方這裏的事。所以一而再、再而三,我都向總統拜託正視這個問題,跟美國的交通建設盡量協助幫忙。"},{"start":180.837,"end":204.532,"text":"所以就這樣,我今天有提出幾條。 也希望我在30幾年的插槍在民意代表生涯之中,在這個任期內,我可以把這幾條改革,我剩下,這樣我對我鄉親就有改善。 因為時間的關係,我就簡單講,但是我要省一分給他議長,拜託拜託全力給我們廟的管道幫忙。"},{"start":205.473,"end":216.943,"text":"大西湖計劃來,去搞通的聯絡網,把它完成的話,我們會變成非常有希望、非常有發展的一個非常重要的一個宣誓地。"},{"start":218.07,"end":239.14,"text":"我第一要講的,我為三者先講,這個鄉鎮才7000多人,前不早撐後不早頓,經過我這幾年一直在地方上把他重要道路去把他開闢。 現在有兩條,就是稀有於稀的合體公共第四期,希望中央給我們全力支持。"},{"start":240.189,"end":243.951,"text":"施政商院長施政商院長施政商院長施政商院長施政商院長施政商院長施政商院長"},{"start":267.909,"end":268.089,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":282.93,"end":307.491,"text":"藍絲、白絲,只有台上道一邊的行政院,為南部,現在要台北的行政院,但是為北部,要下來的事務有困難,所以我現在是白絲、藍絲,這點大概要規劃,從規劃好,一定改善起來,鄉親幫忙錢,這個才是做公德的事情,這樣好不好?這樣你看到沒有?"},{"start":308.792,"end":327.611,"text":"報告委員,這個南出跟北入這兩個之間,現在還有個別不同的問題,尤其是北邊的部分,它是山坡保育地跟生態調查困難比較多,南邊現在開始有一些經驗研究,但是也有一些地形上的限制。 我有告訴你高光機器,他說這個計畫可以,這是我們親自會談的,我們了解地方,按照日。"},{"start":332.415,"end":336.638,"text":"這是苗栗縣的民主勝地,在這裡你們的票都贏了很多,是通宵產業生命之路。"},{"start":354.892,"end":382.373,"text":"阿通宵鎮現在慢慢的沒落。 我就要趴邊還顧到跟票都贏了一點點而已。 雖然心有未甘,但是我還是全力以赴把地方建設出來。 就是現在苗栗縣政府跟你們已經規劃費落了。 就是銅鑼科學院要趴一條下來跟通宵,才能幫助地方產業的發展。 你大家看這個內容,我希望一條一條是很重要。"},{"start":383.754,"end":407.181,"text":"而且這地方真的很重要你院長下來保證下來你來看我這個都是很有前瞻的我不會去拿奪樓來做認證的我所有建議都是地方上實際需要別人覺得很困難我都把它承擔起來把它推動再來這個萬利部長你對台中你也知道"},{"start":409.092,"end":425.064,"text":"臺中的委員會結帳跟你們臺中的結帳,這個做了臺61線西邊委員會的交流到,這個如果願意交流到,下來如果不小心通過的時候,還要考慮30分鐘才能回到委員會,這個是你們中證。"},{"start":430.178,"end":439.104,"text":"議長這條要完成了,你們那邊的勢力很穩固,我打了很久都打得很辛苦,但是怎麼困難我都要做,這樣保證你不可以悄悄地來議長。"},{"start":441.906,"end":466.209,"text":"你還要答應我啦,這給我們免配額款啦,我們的財政很困難。希望這邊說盡量免配額款,還是盡量調低配額款啦,這些事情我們都要做。可行性研究有送過來,我們目前正在研究。你應該稍稍知道這個嘛。我知道啦,他們目前有送過來,我們正在研究。你稍稍知道,你補充工會到我們,一定你交代就會全部動員啦,好不好?"},{"start":467.27,"end":472.58,"text":"這條款的名義就全力完成,大概你們再修改一下就完成。"},{"start":479.589,"end":507.721,"text":"你每一個到最後那一句都是可以同意免除地方配合款,阿剩下的不知道多少?有一點免啦,有一點減啦,我們是很怕病,我們是玩弄的。真的,你不用這樣想法,我這個財政訴訟,為什麼我開始要講這個,就是要你了解情形,不然我站在這裡拜託你,我也覺得很民主。我不是站在這裡,我是覺得有道理我才會跟你講,沒有道理我不亂開口。"},{"start":510.043,"end":521.857,"text":"你稍微幫我講一下嘛,譬如要20%你說10%我們就很心滿意足,我們就感恩戴德啦,這樣你不會請的,不可以這樣,你們在補助一些鄉鎮、縣市,你們都這樣擠得大大筆就落了。"},{"start":529.941,"end":533.003,"text":"我希望在我訓練這幾條人改觀,再來先到14零線第一期,第二期,"},{"start":550.482,"end":559.614,"text":"第二期我已經完成了,第一期的酒地現種20噸而已,大台車、拖拉車、貨櫃車都要農路去做,要考慮很久。第一期我們有補助3.07億你跟我們議長有關,這條要改觀"},{"start":568.986,"end":585.523,"text":"委員在說的是二期,二期我們在等地方來送可行性評估的補助申請,他們來我們幫忙。我先講,他們現在在做結尾上過了,你們幫我支持,當然有些在進行了,以前已經做了我就不說了,我只是感謝你們有幫我們做事情。"},{"start":589.491,"end":616.567,"text":"臺七十二線就是西濱快速道路,它高車化已經核定了,現在積極進行。因為在這五千年道大溪谷計畫苗栗三個地點都跟這條路有息息相關。希望一定幫助一下,保證年輕人幫忙一下,如期如止完成,好不好?這都算一百八十幾個,可能你們要追加了,要一點資質,這跟之前的預算一樣。再來,"},{"start":621.955,"end":628.738,"text":"提到自行車,齁,報告議長,齁,您的補充大家都很懷疑,兼備去到那裏,大家就說我全力支持,現在經過幾個補充,四個補充要我給你認名,經過林佳龍部長,"},{"start":639.366,"end":650.09,"text":"王國材部長、李孟彥鎮長,現在看我們年輕人沿途的陳彥博,不是陳彥博,經過四個部長,現在就看我們這個,我們部長你在這記錄,你應該有參加這個會,這90人,我不知道一定,"},{"start":661.135,"end":672.656,"text":"你去我苗栗三月不來借一座,你借到那裡不去跟台中打通,我們希望台中有200多萬的人,可以引進到苗栗來。"},{"start":674.568,"end":703.185,"text":"不可以只有嘴巴在講我全力支持,搞不好都沒有一個結果臺鐵公司現在修正計畫,10月底之前會送來交通部,他們那屆委如果上來,我們的速度很高,他10月底會把計畫送來交通部你補充就要寫在台中,就要到這裡靠近,我講到不用用了很大的力氣,因為你了解情形,這條要完成起來,實在很免得"},{"start":703.985,"end":704.065,"text":"那個72線的話齁"},{"start":730.481,"end":744.774,"text":"七十二縣快速道路跟我們連接西濱快速高焦化跟古道山第一轉向報告預定"},{"start":749.566,"end":763.351,"text":"國道1跟國道3沒有連結入網,只有苗栗縣。 如果這個台七十二線,你們已經合訂了,會公告了,說準備要來啟動。 現在看來還有一些問題,這條件重要,聯絡道路。 聯絡著..."},{"start":772.827,"end":786.555,"text":"高速公路1號、3號的路線還有西濱這條好嘛,這40幾個比你來講小錢啦,你看南部這次都幾百個在建,我們看就很羨慕,你也幫我們加油一下啦。 是,這國道1號跟國道3號還有一些問題啦,那個問題就是說距離上一個或下一個交流道太近啦,我們來超過2公里才可以講,但是它都差不多1.2到1.5公里而已,那距離有比較近一點嘛,這個部分我們繼續來討論看要怎麼克服啦,好不好?"},{"start":802.945,"end":803.565,"text":"十三縣銅鑼及三越河"},{"start":831.894,"end":852.071,"text":"那個火車站的一個拓寬的工程,我們現在轉向的台13線都四線道,只有這兩個地方還是兩線道,這有發生車禍都幾個變了,今天來公路那個交通部都說好,我們前例要改善,讓我等到幾個頭門,"},{"start":853.712,"end":882.627,"text":"那個保證你這裡完成,我這個白頭髮就會變成黑頭髮。 這裡都給我們改變,這樣好嗎?我是講真的齁,這個都很實際的問題。 阿然後時間快要到了,你把他打下來齁,這個台西縣縣里漁港的服務區這點,已經會進行了差不多,好像公路總局有一點意見,就給我們改選再來。"},{"start":885.11,"end":912.582,"text":"阿那個落日大道, 那個漂亮的,你來照相的時候,這邊要擴大一個服務區,這地方是我們島小港,很漂亮,很漂亮的地方,這在白沙屯貢天宮的,會落在那個附近而已喔,好嗎?再來,讓我們知道這裡有在進步,還有一些事情要你們島小港,一些路線要打通,阿我在這裡奧恩誠懇的拜託,"},{"start":914.926,"end":924.148,"text":"我們的左院長跟陳部長給我們加油一下,開始call in啦。 談到結晶阿沒本就晶,再恆久,再用晶都讓你們關注。好,謝謝。謝謝陳委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（16時13分）副院長好。首先有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員超明：卓院長好。我今天有很多問題，要請你幫忙來解決苗栗縣幾個重點交通的問題，我今天第一個主題，請院長看一下，苗栗的努力，值得中央大力的支持，我這個講了幾十年了，但是中央一直沒有改進，尤其苗栗縣是財政被管控的縣市，它的財政屬於第五級。我要跟你說的是，苗栗縣從95年到112年間替中央創稅了4,147億，但是我們在中央的補助──一般性的補助款跟統籌分配款，總共只拿了2,022億，等於苗栗縣送了中央2,125億。院長你稍微看一下，我舉一個一樣財政第五級的縣市為例，嘉義縣從95年到112年幫中央創稅才963億，但是它在中央的補助，包括一般統籌分配款等，總共拿了2,430億，等於向中央多拿1,467億。至於屏東縣，幫中央創稅的時候，95年到112年總共是2,627億，但是它跟中央拿了3,589億，等於中央多給它962億。這個問題在哪裡呢？就是財政收支劃分法的統籌分配款，財政越低的時候，你創稅，它沒有多分給你，反而幫你扣下來。所以我再強調這個問題，就是希望中央可以了解這個問題，苗栗縣現在財政都被控管，我們財政非常地困難、非常地拮据，這裡面要有一個觀念，就是地方愈打拚、愈創稅，却愈分愈少。","所以我今天站在這裡，以我當民意代表將近30年以上，我了解所有地方的這些事情，所以一而再、再而三，我都跟中央拜託要正視這個問題，針對苗栗縣的交通建設，盡量來協助跟幫忙。所以在這裡，我今天有拿十幾條，也希望我在三十幾年參政的民意代表生涯之中，在這個任期內，我可以把這幾條解決，我算贏了，這樣對我的鄉親就有交代。因為時間的關係，我就簡單說，但是我會送一本給院長，拜託、拜託，全力幫忙我們苗栗縣。","大矽谷計畫來了，把交通聯絡網完成的話，我們會變成非常有希望、非常有發展、非常重要的縣市。我第一個要說的，我先從貧窮的來說，這個鄉鎮才七千多人，前不著村、後不著店，經過我這幾年一直在地方上把重要道路做開闢，現在它有兩條，就是西湖溪路堤共構第四期，希望中央全力支持我們，蘇貞昌前院長在西湖鄉的時候也幫忙很大，把主要的命脈一直線的打通，現在這第四期完成後，西湖鄉將串連聯絡銅鑼科學園區跟未來的後龍科技產業園區，這是很漂亮的地方，但是交通不方便，常常受損，針對這一點，新任的部長跟院長請全力支持一下我們。","第二個，西湖服務區的聯外道路，我之前就完成北入南出，現在是要來跟你要求南入北出，只有單行道一邊可以進去，從南部進來，臺北可以進去，但是從北部要下來，西湖有困難，所以現在是北入南出，把這一點規劃好，院長幫忙一下貧窮的鄉親，這個才是做功德的事情，好嗎？這樣你有看到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，南出跟北入兩個之間，現在還有個別不同的問題，尤其是北邊的部分，它是山坡保育地跟生態調查，困難比較多，南邊現在開始有一些可行性研究，但也有一些地形上的限制。"],["陳委員超明：但是我有跟高公局去，他說這個計畫可以，這是我們親自會勘的，我們了解地方要怎麼出、怎麼進，這個已經在規劃了，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我……"],["陳部長世凱：但是現在還在修正報告。"],["陳委員超明：這個特別拜託，尤其臺中市在苗栗的隔壁，要支持我們一下，人英俊，要好好發揮一下。"],["陳部長世凱：等它修正報告出來再……"],["陳委員超明：再來這一條路，這個是苗栗縣的民主勝地，在這裡你們的票都贏很多，就是通霄產業生命之路，通霄鎮現在慢慢地沒落，我在那打拚那麼久，但票都贏一點而已，雖然心有未甘，但是我還是全力以赴，把地方建設做好。現在苗栗縣政府跟你們已經有規劃費下來，就是銅鑼科學園區要打一條路到通霄，才能幫助地方產業的發展，你每次看這個內容，這條是很重要的，而且對地方真的很重要，院長下來、部長下來，你來看，我這個都是很前瞻的。我不會去拿道路來做人情的，我所有建議都是地方上實際需要，別人覺得很困難，我都把它承擔起來，把它推動。","再來是苑裡，部長，你在臺中，你也知道……"],["陳部長世凱：隔壁。"],["陳委員超明：苑裡在臺中隔壁，這個做了台61線西濱苑裡的交流道，苑裡交流道下來，如果不小心過頭的時候，還要再花二、三十分鐘才能回來苑裡，這個是你們重鎮。院長，把這條完成，你們那邊的勢力很穩固，我打了很久都打得很辛苦，但是不管多麼困難，我都要做。部長，你不能只是笑笑啦！院長，你要答應我，這個讓我們免配合款啦！我們的財政很困難，希望這邊儘量免配合款，或是儘量調低配合款啦，這些事情我們都想要做。"],["陳部長世凱：可行性研究有送過來，我們目前正在研究。"],["陳委員超明：你應該稍微知道這件事吧？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，目前有送過來，我們正在研議。"],["陳委員超明：這條拜託你！你稍微追一下，部長說話才有力。院長，你交代下去就會全部動員，好不好？這條看能不能在明年全力完成，你們大概再修改一下就完成了。再來……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你每條都寫「免除地方配合款」，我實在不敢直接答應你。"],["陳委員超明：你說什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：你每一個到最後那句都是「同意免除地方配合款」，算一算不知道要多少，現在……"],["陳部長世凱：免除地方配合款。"],["陳委員超明：有一些不用啦，有一些可以減一些啦，我們是很打拚的，我們是冤枉的耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我都先看低的……"],["陳委員超明：真的，你不能有這樣的想法，財政收支劃分，為什麼我開始要講這個？就是要讓你們了解情況，不然我站在這裡拜託你，我也覺得很沒面子，我不是乞丐，我是覺得有道理，我才會跟你講，沒有道理，我不會亂開口。你稍微幫我降一下嘛！譬如要20%，你說10%，我們就很心滿意足，我們就感恩戴德了，這樣你不肯？不要這樣啦！你們在補助一些鄉鎮、縣市，都大筆一揮就給了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，其實中央財政的準備，就是在準備這個狀況。"],["陳委員超明：好，沒關係，只要……"],["卓院長榮泰：我一定衡量中央的能力，在能力許可之下，委員，優先順序我們來討論。"],["陳委員超明：我希望在我任內這幾條可以解決。再來，縣道140線第二期已經完成了，第一期那個橋限重20噸而已，大型的車、卡車、貨櫃車都要走農路，要繞很遠。"],["陳部長世凱：第一期我們有補助3.07億。"],["陳委員超明：對，你跟苑裡很近，這條要幫我們解決，幾十年都沒解決。"],["陳部長世凱：委員在說的是二期嘛，二期我們在等地方來送可行性評估的補助申請，他們如果送來，我們會補助他們。"],["陳委員超明：好，我先說，他們現在在做計畫要送上來了，你們要支持我們。"],["陳部長世凱：對，他們如果送來了，我們會補助他們。"],["陳委員超明：當然有些在進行了，以前已經做了，我就不說了，感謝你們有幫我們地方做事情。台72線就是西濱快速道路，它高架化已經核定了，現在正積極進行，因為在這裡有牽連到大矽谷計畫，苗栗三個地點都跟這條路息息相關，希望院長追一下進度，部長是年輕人，衝一下，如期如質完成，好不好？這總共一百八十幾億，可能你們還要追加一點數字，這是以前的預算。","再來是鐵道自行車，報告院長，你們的部長每個都很會吹牛，每次去到那邊大家都說全力支持，現在經過幾個部長了？4個部長，要我唸名字嗎？經過林佳龍部長、王國材部長、李孟諺部長，現在我們年輕又帥氣的陳彥伯，喔，不是陳彥伯。經過了4個部長，現在就看我們這個陳部長，你就在這隔壁，你應該有參加這個會。"],["陳部長世凱：隔壁就是后里嘛。"],["陳委員超明：這裡是9.14億，我不知道院長有沒有去過苗栗三義？不然你來一趟看看，你坐到那裡，會覺得需要跟臺中打通，臺中有兩百多萬的人，我們希望可以引進到苗栗來，這點不要只有嘴巴在講「我全力支持」，到最後都沒有一個結果，只聞樓梯響，不見……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺鐵公司現在在修正計畫，10月底之前會送來交通部，他們的計畫如果送來，我們的速度會加快。"],["陳委員超明：你一定會吧？還好！"],["陳部長世凱：對，它10月底會把計畫送來交通部。"],["陳委員超明：部長，你剛好是臺中出身，剛好離這邊很近，我講這些不必用很大的力氣，因為你比較了解情形。"],["陳部長世凱：有啦、有啦！這邊我有走過，我知道。"],["陳委員超明：這一條要把它完成，這實在是一個很美的觀光景點。院長，你有空帶你行政院的同仁去那邊坐一下，你會喜歡這個地方，你來我們這裡走走，看看苗栗縣哪裡繁榮、發展，這條把它完成起來，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員超明：好，謝謝你。台72線快速公路連接西濱快速公路的高架化跟國道三，報告院長，在全省國道一跟國道三沒有連結路網的只有苗栗縣，這個台72線你們已經核定了，也公告了，說準備要來啟動，現在又好像看起來有一些問題。這條聯絡道路很重要，聯絡著高速公路一號、三號的路線，還有西濱，好嗎？這四十幾億對你們來說小錢啦！"],["陳部長世凱：但是它現在……"],["陳委員超明：你看南部一次都幾百億，我們看了很羨慕，你也幫我們加油一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是，它接國道一號跟國道三號還有一些問題啦！那個問題就是距離上一個或下一個交流道太近，我們要超過兩公里才可以接，但是它都差不多1.2到1.5公里而已，那個距離有比較近一點，這個部分我們繼續來討論，看要怎麼克服，好不好？"],["陳委員超明：院長，這個年輕臺中出身的比較了解我們苗栗縣，這些都給我幫忙一下啦！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是很了解。"],["陳委員超明：你有空下來苗栗了解一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：請他再想一些好的方式，跟地方大家好好地商量。"],["陳委員超明：我看你很少來苗栗耶！苗栗是很美的地方，我再來請你吃客家菜啦！希望西濱高架化如期如質完成。","再來看台13線銅鑼到三義火車站的拓寬工程，我們現在全省的台13線都是4線道，只有這兩個地方還是2線道啦！這裡也都好幾次發生車禍，每次交通部公路局來都說好，他們要全力改善，讓我等到頭髮都白了，部長，你再幫我完成，我的白頭髮就會變成黑頭髮，這些都幫我們解決，這樣好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個37億的部分已經……"],["陳委員超明：我是講真的，這個都很實際的問題。時間快要到了，台61線苑港漁港的服務區也已經進行了差不多，好像公路局有一點意見，再幫我們加強。","再來，日落大道非常漂亮，你可以來照相，這邊要擴大一個服務區，這點幫忙我們一下，很漂亮、很漂亮的地方，在白沙屯拱天宮下去那邊，在那個附近而已喔！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員超明：再來，好望角這裡有在進步，還有一些錢要你們幫忙，一些路網要打通。","我在這裡很誠懇地拜託卓院長跟陳部長，幫我們加油一下，確實可憐啦！賺那麼多錢，也沒分到錢，用錢都要給你們管制。我講的重點是，要幫我調地方配合款，重要的免配合款，給我們一點鼓勵跟加油，這樣好嗎？感謝！謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是臺北市大同高中的同學，我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪。","接下來請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1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副院長我們有請卓院長還有交通部陳部長以及我們工程會的陳主委卓院長、陳部長、陳主委請備詢"},{"start":23.155,"end":35.867,"text":"黃委員好 院長好 院長 院長 本席昨天在經濟委員會有跟我們的那個陳部長討論到關於農業產業的問題 因為時間有限 那沒有辦法好好的討論所以今天的延續來跟我們卓院長來繼續討論這個部分"},{"start":38.129,"end":64.489,"text":"那臺灣的農產品現在有一個很嚴重的問題,就是外銷。 那些農民很簡單的,他們不懂政治,所以只要把東西賣出去就好。那既然現在我們兩岸有出現一些問題,那在銷售上有一些小狀況,我想很多人就提到說,既然不會賣出去,我們來做加工嘛,來做加工。那我本時也看到現在市面上出現像鳳梨、啤酒這樣的產品,我覺得讓產業來升級,這個也是一個不錯的方法。"},{"start":65.33,"end":66.291,"text":"本土業者反映"},{"start":76.65,"end":79.352,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":100.791,"end":101.212,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":116.904,"end":140.826,"text":"我們的釀酒現在民間釀酒也相當的蓬勃而且有好幾家的酒廠在世界的評比上也獲得了不錯的成績那如果正照委員所說的幫我們的農產品能夠結合下去那是我們的特色如果能夠往這個方向是好的不過昨天到了這個創新技術的博覽會鳳梨可以抽成纖維做成衣服做成帽子"},{"start":144.389,"end":170.348,"text":"謝謝院長很正面的回應讓我們回到今天我們的主題那院長今天是交通組的質詢那有些問題本市在星期二的時候已經跟院長您討論過今天會繼續來討論後續希望從您的口中聽到好消息那我們今天工程會的陳主委也有在現場本市也希望工程會可以盡速的成立這次台東因為山脫颱風造成的這個搶災的工程"},{"start":171.589,"end":190.004,"text":"讓臺東可以早日復原。 主委,我們在10月11日,我帶著交通部次長,還有原民會副主委,還有工程會同仁,前往臺東的災區勘災。 我相信同仁應該有跟你回報這些情況。那這次的災情對臺東傷害非常大,我們初估的預算重建大概要花超過5億。"},{"start":192.262,"end":214.423,"text":"臺東縣作為一個財政五級的窮縣市,相關的災後預備的經費本來就不多,我們急需中央的奧援。本席有兩點請院長還有主委可以來允諾。第一,就是相關公共工程重建的所需資源,中央一定要來協助。第一,災後搶修搶險的工程要快,我們希望工程會能夠在11月點,"},{"start":215.143,"end":233.199,"text":"十一月底以前完成相關的審計加速我們災區的重建。 院長、主委,台東的災民從基台中央的關注。 中央最有效的關注就是資源的預注。 我相信資源只要到位,臺東的災區能夠早日重建就是對臺東最好的關心。"},{"start":236.797,"end":261.977,"text":"報告委員,那麼歷次颱風的災損,那麼工程會都會發函給各縣市政府,那麼針對公共設施的損害,那麼災搶險的部分,各縣市政府如果災損金不夠用,那麼他可以整個鄉鎮公所報起來說報行政院,行政院公共工程委員會協調各部會有的必要去現場"},{"start":262.978,"end":277.977,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":280.336,"end":296.181,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、"},{"start":308.086,"end":309.972,"text":"三位有沒有體驗過台東的慢經濟?"},{"start":316.894,"end":344.856,"text":"他是一個非常適合在那邊享受生命的地方如果院長、部長、諸位你們沒有去過的話本席建議你們好好的體驗因為這是屬於臺東的多元民主的這個慢經濟那臺東的觀光已經不是早期人家說的好山好水好無聊我們現在走的是叫做在地的體驗那我們會透過一些大地藝術結像是透過藝術家結合在地人文地景的這個結合讓旅客們能夠感受到當地特別的"},{"start":346.237,"end":357.987,"text":"這個就是當年賴總統推動的這個地方創生。那讓我們來台東的UK,可以感受到台東特殊的文化。我想讓台東要體驗這樣的觀光體驗,最重要的是什麼?"},{"start":357.987,"end":370.597,"text":"交通要通嘛,你交通要通嘛。但是從零四零三地震以來,我們台東花東的交通命脈很大節。那迎來觀光客變得非常困難,我們交通三不五時就回去。"},{"start":372.313,"end":379.475,"text":"臺東人也跟著產,知道為什麼嗎?因為我們回家的道路變遠了,我們時間增加了,我們交通成本增加了。本席這邊有幾點訴求,來替我們臺東的鄉親,要跟院長、部長處理來請命。"},{"start":402.95,"end":428.437,"text":"零四零三地震之後我們北圍鐵路跟蘇花公路只要遇到大雨就會發生土石流交通中斷那我想地震之後地貿都有了很大的改變我講政府應該要有新的因應措施嘛那就本期我拿到的這些資料這些地震相關的資料我們台鐵有委託一個那個台鐵委託這個顧問公司這個核定的一個叫做什麼"},{"start":429.137,"end":452.705,"text":"鐵路邊坡養護手冊完成邊坡分級及精進分級。部長你知道這個計畫嗎?這個應該是邊坡安全的鞏固。對,對,對,很長的名字,很長的。部長知道這個計畫嗎?欸,知道。部長你知道這是110年的資料嗎?已經,這是111年的,經過大地震之後,我們交通部有沒有重新來做評估?"},{"start":454.085,"end":482.627,"text":"如果沒有的話本席要趕快整個邊波的告警系統我們也有重新的檢討而且建置新的整個告警系統這個要趕快重新再評估整個第一次地震爆還有整個安全的調查本席這邊也要強調我們政府現在要趕快規劃我們怎麼樣改善我們北回鐵路還有蘇花公路像是你是不是要改道改線或是要新建民隧道甚至我們蘇花改要趕快的來加速進行除此之外本席也要"},{"start":483.442,"end":485.763,"text":"報告委員這一次在颱風之前的兩天我們就已經開始開會在討論這件事"},{"start":512.765,"end":517.808,"text":"所以其實該做的準備都有做準備那當然有些地方有攤房那所幸"},{"start":518.993,"end":519.574,"text":"有時候颱風來的時候 空運也會停 海運也會停"},{"start":546.236,"end":550.079,"text":"院長,這個部分本是要請院長督促政府要改進。我們可以以後發生的事情,我們是怎麼行政?我想這個民眾會很有感啊。 院長你是認同這件事情?"},{"start":573.79,"end":591.918,"text":"對,當然這個很多的風災,如果我們這個預警預告的系統能夠很準確的話,事前該做的事情其實都是暗部做的。 我們可以先預防嘛對不對,我們知道可能會,我們可能會落下當,我們車上準備好,我們可以先做這個準備,是不是變化先好。 這次颱風來的時候就已經在"},{"start":592.771,"end":606.397,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":612.04,"end":631.751,"text":"院長部長,你知道台北台東單程車票多少?火車票?不到800,大概700多。那你知道一旦蘇花北回中斷,我們先不要講飛機喔。民眾從台鐵搭火車到高雄,再搭高鐵到台北的費用是多少?1900,中間兩倍啦,中間兩倍齁。"},{"start":635.735,"end":660.824,"text":"本事要強調從0403地震之後只要一道大雨 蘇花北回中段就變成常態那之前我們都有跟交通部來反映 要求趕快來協調那交通部每次給我的回覆就是說 台北到花蓮有加強 台東呢 台東有啦 但是因為那大城市有背城 又有崗位 所以我們不應該請假啦部長你知道花蓮飛台北市多少錢嗎"},{"start":662.008,"end":665.072,"text":"一千七,你知道台東飛台北是多少錢嗎?"},{"start":665.072,"end":673.503,"text":"飛機票,兩千五,你如果是跟機票寫相,我相信大城市不會是這樣子的數字啦,對不對?"},{"start":673.503,"end":677.749,"text":"我想我們未來政府數據,那數據不能看表,要去看"},{"start":678.592,"end":683.436,"text":"臺東縣是一個產業比較單一的縣市,我們民眾普遍說都不是這麼高,本市這邊要求,未來因為災害所增加的交通成本,由中央來負責,協助負擔。"},{"start":701.138,"end":723.991,"text":"那最後我們在討論臺東交通離島的問題之前我要在這邊公開跟我們部長說聲謝謝回應我在委員會提到要動漲臺鐵車票的這個提案那公開表示我們明年春節前臺鐵不會漲票價這部分我要感謝部長也跟你贊許啦齁那我想不過還有一群人他沒有辦法被照顧到就是離島的居民"},{"start":726.343,"end":746.974,"text":"議員長這個畫面有沒有很熟悉?我們第一次在這次會議上講到,四個月前我們質詢的時候提到地道南嶼的班機因為氣候影響沒有辦法正常起降,我想過了四個月了,我想交通部你應該有一個明確的做法,是不是可以請部長來說明一下,未來要怎麼做?你說機場的部分嗎?飛機沒有辦法正常起降的問題。"},{"start":748.053,"end":766.874,"text":"有時候遇到那個大風真的是沒有辦法,但是在工程上如果可以加強的部分我們其實都會來做。民航局目前針對蘭嶼的機場也正在做加強當中。你說你們的方式是,來進的方式是什麼?你說機場不能飛的時候嗎?飛機不能正常起降的這個問題"},{"start":768.857,"end":789.073,"text":"可是風大的時候就真的是不能請教這是海運的方法啦沒關係啦部長我知道您也剛稍微你很忙不過是不是可以將整個因的方式能夠跟分析出來報告你們接的方式也要出來啊對不對我就是走海運啊您的意思是走海運嘛對不對好謝謝部長有時候風大的時候海運也不行但是我們努力"},{"start":791.58,"end":818.736,"text":"謝謝部長,部長還是對台東的交通的努力我們也是要謝謝。那院長我們去年台東機場終於跑到完成的整建,那允許大型的客機可以起飛,像那個B738或A32都可以起降了。那我們今年在8月在台東縣政府努力接下來我們也迎來了第一次這個越南台東的包機直航,而且在10月份會再追加4次的這個架次。"},{"start":819.946,"end":839.139,"text":"那我知道其實蔡政府實際投資了很多的經費在做我們整個停機坪跟滑行道的這個整建那但是我想要問的是說我們工程完成了那這麼長的時間沒有使用我們台東機場的軟硬體可不可以跟得上坦白跟各位報告齁"},{"start":840.78,"end":867.996,"text":"我每次搭飛機的時候都覺得我們的空橋是裝飾品因為從來沒有用過要不是這次包機我不知道我們的空橋還是好的那我想未來我們台東會越來越多的這樣國際觀光客來台東玩那我們要為了要迎接更多的觀光客我們相應的軟硬體要跟得上那相關的設備改善的部分交通部也要來補全院長讓我們一起把台東的觀光做大讓來台東的旅客更多爭取更多的觀光客好不好"},{"start":871.047,"end":889.733,"text":"我們一定努力上次我們約好去台東結果因為颱風來我剛剛還在談就近的時間趕快再到台東去也許不一定看到什麼樣的現場但就未來的發展我們有一個共同的印象共同的影像這樣我們來共同的來努力會比較有聚焦"},{"start":890.393,"end":904.968,"text":"謝謝院長,院長臺東是一個,臺東是一個德國的小社會,我常常覺得臺灣何其有幸擁有臺東,因為這裡不僅族群多元,風景美麗,物產豐富,而且人民非常的純樸,"},{"start":906.429,"end":920.18,"text":"再次拜託政府不要因為臺東人口較少而忽略它。我們希望能夠公平地對待臺東,讓臺東擁有更完善的交通系統,讓我們可以發揮臺東特有的慢經濟實力。謝謝部長、謝謝院長、謝謝主委。謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":449,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（15時51分）謝謝副院長，有請卓院長還有交通部陳部長以及工程會陳主委。"],["主席：卓院長、陳部長、陳主委，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：院長好。院長，本席昨天在經濟委員會有跟陳部長討論到關於農業產業的問題，因為時間有限，沒有辦法好好地討論，所以今天延續來跟卓院長繼續討論這個部分。臺灣的農產品現在有一個很嚴重的問題就是外銷，其實農民很簡單，他們不懂政治，所以只要把東西賣出去就好，既然現在兩岸出現一些問題，在銷售上有一些小狀況，我想很多人就提到說，既然賣不出去我們就來做加工，本席也看到現在市面上出現像鳳梨啤酒這樣的產品，我覺得讓產業升級也是一個不錯的方法。另外本土業者就跟本席反映其實現在他們壓力很大，因為中國大陸進口啤酒到臺灣來，我想我們在這邊不是要鼓勵喝酒，當然開車不喝酒，這個我們一定要倡導，不要酒後駕車，不過每個國家都有自己的酒類文化，像日本的sake、蘇格蘭的whisky還有德國的啤酒，我相信臺灣應該也可以結合我們豐富的農產品來推廣自己臺灣品牌的酒類，對不對？不僅如此，還可以解決我們農業現在的問題。請問部長，未來是不是可以大力地協助我們本土的釀酒業，甚至跨部會跟業者共同討論如何將臺灣的釀酒產業提升，甚至能夠外銷？院長，這個部分是不是可以協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們民間的釀酒也相當地蓬勃，有好幾家酒廠在世界的評比上也獲得了不錯的成績，如果遵照委員所說的，幫我們的農產品能夠結合下去，那是我們的特色，能夠往這個方向是好的。我昨天到了創新技術的博覽會，鳳梨可以抽成纖維做成衣服、做成帽子。"],["黃委員建賓：都是一個項目，對吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝院長很正面的回應。我們回到今天的主題，院長，今天是交通組的質詢，有些問題本席在星期二的時候已經跟院長您討論過，今天會繼續來討論後續，我希望從您的口中聽到好消息。今天工程會的陳主委也有在現場，本席也希望工程會可以儘速地審議這次臺東因為山陀兒颱風造成的搶災工程，讓臺東可以早日復原。主委，10月11號，我帶著交通部次長、原民會副主委還有工程會同仁前往臺東的災區勘災，我相信同仁應該有跟你回報這些情況，這次的災情對臺東傷害非常大，我們粗估的重建預算大概要花超過5億，臺東縣做為一個財政五級的窮縣市，相關的災後預備經費本來就不多，我們急需中央的奧援。本席有兩點請院長還有主委允諾，第一、相關公共工程重建的所需資源，中央一定要來協助；第二、災後搶修搶險的工程審議要快，我們希望工程會能夠在11月底以前完成相關的審議，加速我們災區的重建。院長、主委，臺東的災民最期待中央的關注，中央最有效的關注就是資源的挹注，我相信資源只要到位，臺東的災區能夠早日重建，就是對臺東最好的關心。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，歷次颱風的災損，工程會都會發函給各縣市政府，針對公共設施的損害，搶災、搶險的部分，各縣市政府如果災準金不夠用，那麼它可以整個鄉鎮公所報請行政院，行政院公共工程委員會會協調各部會，有必要去現場現勘的或者是去了解的，等這些都評估之後，工程會會儘速來核定這些經費。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，謝謝主委很正面的回應。","我想產業要發展，觀光要發展，最主要的是交通要好，陳部長是本席上任以來，今年第3個交通部長，陳部長我來跟您確認一下，本席在6月11號質詢完前任的交通部長之後，他是不是有確實的將臺東的問題都好好的交接給陳部長您的團隊裡面來？院長、部長及主委，你們都有去過臺東，對臺東的印象是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好。"],["黃委員建賓：熱氣球、釋迦、知本溫泉，對不對？那三位有沒有體驗過臺東的慢經濟？"],["卓院長榮泰：慢經濟，它是一個非常適合在那邊享受生命的地方。"],["黃委員建賓：對，如果院長、部長、主委，你們沒有去過的話，本席建議你們好好的體驗，因為這是屬於臺東多元民主的慢經濟。臺東的觀光已經不是早期人家說的好山、好水、好無聊，我們現在走的是叫作在地體驗，我們會透過一些大地藝術節，像是透過藝術家與在地人文地景的結合，讓旅客們能夠感受到當地特別的文化，這個就是當年賴總統推動的地方創生，讓來臺東的遊客可以感受到臺東特殊的文化。在臺東要體驗這樣的觀光體驗最重要的是什麼？交通要通嘛！但是從0403地震以來，花東的交通命脈就打結，迎來觀光客變得非常困難，我們交通三不五時就中斷，那遊客要怎麼來？所以不只是花蓮的觀光慘，臺東的觀光也很慘，不只觀光慘，連居住在這邊的臺東人，還有旅外的臺東人也跟著慘，知道為什麼嗎？因為我們回家的道路變遠了，我們花費的時間增加了，我們的交通成本增加了。本席這邊有幾點訴求要來替臺東的鄉親跟院長、部長、主委來請命，0403地震之後，北迴鐵路跟蘇花高、蘇花公路只要遇到大雨就會發生土石流，交通中斷，地震之後，地質、地貌都有了很大的改變，政府應該要有新的因應措施。就本席拿到的這些地震相關資料，臺鐵有委託顧問公司核定了一個叫作鐵路邊坡養護手冊，完成邊坡分級及精進分級，部長，你知道這個計畫嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個應該是邊坡安全的鞏固。"],["黃委員建賓：對，名字很長，部長知道這個計畫嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：知道。"],["黃委員建賓：那你知道這是111年的資料嗎？111年，經過大地震之後，交通部有沒有重新來做評估，如果沒有的話，本席要求要趕快。"],["陳部長世凱：當然基於整個邊坡的告警系統，我們也有重新檢討，而且要整個建置新的告警系統。"],["黃委員建賓：這個要趕快重新來評估……"],["陳部長世凱：這個有。"],["黃委員建賓：整個地質、地貌還有整個安全的調查，本席這邊也要強調，政府現在要趕快規劃怎麼樣改善北迴鐵路，還有蘇花公路，像是不是要改道、改線，或者要興建明隧道，甚至蘇花改要趕快加速進行嘛！除此之外，本席也要要求交通部，在災害發生之前，要趕快做好預防性的一些措施，像是接駁運輸規劃。部長，氣象局是在您管轄底下嘛！你可以第一時間掌握第一手的資料，你也可以依照氣象局給你的資訊來針對幾個容易坍方的路段做預防性的措施、疏散嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這一次在颱風之前的兩天，我們就已經開始開會在討論這件事，所以其實該做的準備都有做，當然有些地方有坍方，所幸沒有造成什麼傷亡，所以這個部分我們有儘量在防治了。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，沒有造成損傷，可是還是造成民眾的困擾，車忽然間不能走之後，所有的民眾都卡在車站那邊，往前、往南、往北都不對嘛！然後罵聲連連的時候，交通部再趕快調動車子去運輸，我想這個都可以預防性地先跟公車業者做好……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，有時候颱風來的時候，空運也會停、海運也會停，道路中斷我們也不是很願意，但是真的遇到的時候還是要……"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我們講的不是發生當下，是之後有這樣的情況，而且有些時候是還沒有真的發生災情，是預防性停的時候，你要怎麼運輸嘛！院長，這個部分，本席要請院長督促交通部改進，明明可以預防發生的事情，我們為什麼不先做？我想這個民眾會很有感，院長，你是不是認同這件事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，當然很多的風災，如果預警、預告的系統能夠很準確的話，事前該做的事情其實都是按部就班……"],["黃委員建賓：我們可以先預防嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：正在做。"],["黃委員建賓：我們知道路可能會斷，車子就先準備好，可以事先做好這些準備，是不是比發生了再來做還要好？"],["卓院長榮泰：像這次颱風來的時候就已經啟動整個海空的備援系統。"],["黃委員建賓：院長，跟您報告，這次南迴線也發生一樣的情況，一片混亂。院長，本席要求這個部分真的要來改進。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，好的。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長。另外，我想道路中斷之後，整個交通經費、費用都提升，院長、部長，你知道臺北、臺東單程的火車票多少？不到八百，大概七百多；那你知道一旦蘇花、北迴中斷，我們先不要講飛機，民眾從臺鐵搭火車到高雄，再搭高鐵到臺北的費用是多少？1,900，將近兩倍。本席要強調，從0403地震之後，只要遇到大雨，蘇花、北迴中斷就變成常態。之前我們都有跟交通部反映，要求趕快協調，鐵路、航空要趕快調度，但交通部每次給我的回復就是臺北到花蓮有加強，那臺東呢？他說：臺東有啦，但是因為搭乘率只有八成，還有空位，所以我們不增加啦。部長，你知道花蓮飛臺北是多少錢嗎？1,700，你知道臺東飛臺北的飛機票是多少錢嗎？2,500，你如果讓機票價格一樣，我相信搭乘率不會是這樣子的數字啦，對不對？我想未來政府不能只看表面數據，要去研究背後的原因。我強調蘇花、北迴中斷影響的不只花蓮，臺東也是會影響到。臺東縣是一個產業比較單一的縣市，我們民眾普遍收入都不是這麼高。本席在這邊要求，未來因為災害所增加的交通成本，要由中央來負責協助負擔。","最後，在我們討論臺東交通離島的問題之前，我要在這邊公開跟部長說聲謝謝，回應我在委員會提到要凍漲臺鐵車票的這個提案，部長公開表示明年春節前臺鐵不會漲票價，這部分我要感謝部長，也跟你讚許啦。不過還有一群人沒有辦法被照顧到，就是離島的居民。院長，這個畫面有沒有很熟悉？我們上次質詢時有提到，4個月前我們質詢的時候提到，離島蘭嶼的班機因為氣候影響，沒有辦法正常起降，過了4個月了，我想交通部應該有一個明確的作法，是不是可以請部長來說明一下未來要怎麼做？"],["陳部長世凱：你說機場的部分嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：飛機沒有辦法正常起降的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：有時候遇到大風，真的是沒有辦法，但是在工程上如果可以加強的部分，我們其實都會來做，民航局目前針對蘭嶼的機場也正在加強當中。"],["黃委員建賓：你們改進的方式是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：你說機場不能飛的時候嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：飛機不能正常起降的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：可是風大的時候就真的是不能起降。"],["黃委員建賓：你們因應的方法。沒關係，部長，我知道你也剛上任，也很忙，會後是不是可以將整個因應的方式跟本席做一個報告？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員建賓：你們接駁方式要出來啊，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我就是走海運，您的意思是走海運嘛，對不對？"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：有時候風大的時候海運也不行，但是我們努力，我們努力。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長，對於你對臺東交通的努力，我們也是要謝謝。","院長，我們去年臺東機場的跑道終於完成整建，允許大型的客機可以起飛，像B738或A32都可以起降了，今年8月在臺東縣政府的努力之下，我們也迎來了第一次越南、臺東的包機直航，而且在10月份會再追加4次的架次。我知道其實蔡政府時期投資很多經費，做整個停機坪跟滑行道的整建，但是我想要問的是，工程完成了，這麼長的時間沒有使用，我們臺東機場的軟硬體可不可以跟得上？坦白跟各位報告，我每次搭飛機的時候都覺得我們的空橋是裝飾品，因為從來沒有用過，要不是這次包機，我不知道我們的空橋還是好的。我想未來我們臺東會越來越多這樣的國際觀光客來臺東玩，為了要迎接更多的觀光客，我們相應的軟硬體要跟得上，相關設備改善的部分交通部也要來補全。院長，讓我們一起把臺東的觀光做大，讓來臺東的旅客更多、爭取更多觀光客，好不好？院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定努力。上次我們約好去臺東，結果因為颱風來，我剛剛還在談，就近的時間趕快再到臺東去，也許不一定看到什麼樣的現場，但就未來的發展，我們有一個共同的映象、共同的影像，這樣我們共同來努力會比較聚焦。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長。院長，臺東是一個多元的小社會，我常常覺得臺灣何其有幸擁有臺東，因為這裡不僅族群多元、風景美麗、物產豐富，主要是人民非常地純樸。也要再一次拜託政府，不要因為臺東的人口較少而忽略它，我們希望能夠公平地對待臺東，讓臺東擁有更完善的交通系統，讓我們可以發揮臺東特有的慢經濟實力！謝謝部長、謝謝院長、謝謝主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員的想法完全一致，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息5分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時6分）","繼續開會（16時12分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長,因為我在想說,這個代理局這件事情的時候,因為我知道說你們用的是NCC組織法的第16條,那某個部分它確實是有一些"},{"start":62.571,"end":63.852,"text":"林立雲和王維京發文痛批NCC內部腐化"},{"start":88.8,"end":110.18,"text":"如為首長制,就溫柏中在10月7號的時候,受訪跳出來說他是依法行政,絕無不法。 院長你怎麼看這事情?從機關內部出來的人,對機關的批評,我想NCC包括代理主委跟所有的NCC同仁,甚至包括行政院都應該非常重視,如果屬實,"},{"start":112.546,"end":132.463,"text":"我聽到NCC在講依法行政的時候喊得這麼大聲我真的覺得非常非常的諷刺因為我覺得NCC根本就是打著依法行政的旗幹著違法亂政的事情我為什麼這麼講勒?"},{"start":136.155,"end":165.444,"text":"院長,你知道中天案在高等行政法院的時候判決下來,你有沒有看過這個證文、判決書?有,沒有很詳細,但我知道整個狀況。所以他的情況很清楚地講到,判決處主文裡面就很清楚地講到說,原處分撤銷。院長你知道這件事情嘛,對不對?是。你知道理由嗎?"},{"start":168.914,"end":188.053,"text":"這個判決來來去去有的是針對程序上的,很少針對實質內容的,這個我知道這個狀況是如此。所以判決處文很清楚地講到原處分撤銷,那個莫某宗你已經進到院會裡面來,那個我不擋你上台可是你不要講話,我不擋你上台你不要講話,來。"},{"start":189.654,"end":217.619,"text":"那個在中天換照案的那個訴訟案判決書裡面第21頁 院長他很清楚的直接講到說違反換照審查辦法第11條第三項後段就未來6年營運計畫各審查項目之評分基準規定 形同改變執照之核發標準 容以造成該五個審查項目之決策事實基礎錯誤"},{"start":219.574,"end":230.5,"text":"而資訊不完全,足以影響所評,為審議不予換照之結論,無從推算回復,原處分自與法有違。﹖"},{"start":236.923,"end":255.471,"text":"原處分與法有違,很清楚喔,所以為什麼我剛剛聽到翁柏宗在講說他完全依法行政的時候,我真的覺得超級諷刺,現在高等行政法院完全透過他的判決書狠狠地打臉NCC,"},{"start":257.708,"end":271.221,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,院長你有什麼看法?我剛剛有請教代理主委,他說他現在NCC基於他的職權,他已經在上訴當中,既然在上訴,那這個在法院當中還要做最後的這個決定齁。"},{"start":276.064,"end":297.391,"text":"我們絕對尊重這些法律的程序可是在高等行政法院當中的判決書上寫得非常非常的清楚院長我直接跟你講一下他很清楚講到了NCC怎麼樣子違法亂政109年11月的時候中天換照的時候"},{"start":299.192,"end":317.718,"text":"根據衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業深色審查辦法,它在107年就已經更改了修正的所有的評分標準。NCC在109年的時候還是用105年的標準來做審查。"},{"start":321.957,"end":342.748,"text":"院長這麼簡單的一個邏輯的狀態我嚴重的懷疑NCC是蓄意是公然違法我跟委員提醒或許法律上大家還是可以再進一步去研究 申請設立的深色的審查跟所謂換照是兩套不同的準則標準來進行的那不能把它混為一談"},{"start":344.609,"end":370.219,"text":"換照當中的時候他一樣用了一個這樣子的一個審查的一個標準是判決書裡面針對院長提的這部分也很清楚提到了行政規則他沒有辦法去逾越母法的部分 院長你剛剛我讓汪博東站在你旁邊就是覺得你對這事情可能不一定了解的這麼透徹所以我讓他站在你旁邊可是我不想要讓他透過麥克風來講話因為我覺得他的身份是有爭議的所以"},{"start":373.015,"end":387.069,"text":"院長我希望你在針對依法行政這件事情的時候能夠好好的去考量因為NCC很明顯的狀態他打著維持媒體自由的旗幹著"},{"start":388.59,"end":388.75,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":404.275,"end":422.98,"text":"針對這個部分我這邊簡單講一下因為他還有更改的機會我們希望因為這兩個禮拜協商沒有成果和解飯也沒有成果下個禮拜還要繼續那我本來期待院長其實是可以說理論法的人那我們希望"},{"start":423.84,"end":453.16,"text":"在這個事情當中的時候 院長你要堅持住不要沉淪變成像NCC一樣打著依法行政的旗 幹著破壞違法行政的事情我們希望院長你堅持住這個部分好不好我會很堅持 憲法70條憲法的理論還有預算法91條裡面的規定憲法70條這個部分是預算審進來 送進立法院的時候我們在審的部分我們沒有辦法去增加它可是我們立法了之後"},{"start":454.12,"end":454.44,"text":"就是依照預算法91條"},{"start":478.722,"end":498.559,"text":"立法院在審視預算的時候,他要增加稅出的時候,要徵詢行政院的意見。我們現在針對立法的結果出來狀態的時候,你都完全不尊重的時候,我們希望,院長你這邊一定要真正的依法行政,不要沉淪變成像ACC。好,因為我這邊還有第二個問題我要問,就是"},{"start":503.07,"end":521.848,"text":"禮拜二的時候我講到桃樹苗大矽谷計畫那當時也提到了一個部分就是有關於才化法的一個修正那我提到了一個部分就是科學園區大矽谷計畫這邊的時候他納進去了大新竹輕軌這個計畫 院長你知道吧"},{"start":525.315,"end":541.169,"text":"那知道這個計畫當中的時候我當時提到了一件事情因為整個財化法的發展過程當中新竹市創稅全國第三可是得到的配回率全國最低"},{"start":542.782,"end":557.342,"text":"新竹市平均每一個人貢獻的中央的創稅是65萬,全國最高,比台北市、新北市都高,可是我們配回率是全國最低。你當時提到了一件事情,就是說你會用"},{"start":558.263,"end":580.756,"text":"一般性的補助給新竹市更多,對不對,我記得你當時是這樣回應。不是我回應,是行政院一直這樣在處理這些問題。可是我們看到的狀態並沒有,新竹市得到了一般性補助的時候,全國倒數第三,只比金門、馬祖高,比澎湖還要低。那這個部分呢,我為什麼特別提到這個情況。地方要提出需求,中央才能夠予以補助。"},{"start":582.037,"end":609.12,"text":"院長,所以我特別提到這個部分,我希望院長能夠去落實好久沒有大細股計畫裡面對於大新竹輕軌的一個主張。這邊有一個狀態,就是按地方上面他們去縮時攝影出來的結果的時候,新竹市去科學園區工作,大概平均每個人上下班要花兩個小時以上的車程。"},{"start":611.102,"end":639.449,"text":"我們認為如果新竹市有比較好的交通運輸系統的時候不只是對在園區工作的工程師對大新竹的人來說是好事而且對於竹科產值可以再進一步的向上提升因為每一個工程師幾乎都發他們每天上班時間的四分之一在交通上面所以本席也利用今天這個機會的時候希望院長能夠"},{"start":641.28,"end":668.293,"text":"出手來協助大輕軌新竹大輕軌的一個落實那我想請教一下院長你知道現在新竹大輕軌最大的問題在哪裡嗎?新竹縣市之間還是要談出一個可行的方法我們才可以進行有效的可行性的研究跟評估市政府應該已經在辦理這個可行報告可言報告的一個招標過程我所了解如此"},{"start":669.056,"end":670.457,"text":"報告委員﹖目前正在"},{"start":696.081,"end":724.406,"text":"新竹市政府在做可行性研究當中,那我們要等到明年的第一季,看他可不可以把可行性研究做完,報來交通部,那交通部該協助的部分都會協助。好,理解齁,院長我跟你提一下狀態齁,因為,大概新竹輕軌碰到兩個很大的問題,一個是沒有錢,所以我禮拜二特別提到財化法的問題,因為地方根本沒有財力去支應這樣子的一個重大建設,"},{"start":725.751,"end":754.662,"text":"第二個部分就是溝通的問題現在部長提到新竹市出來整合這樣子的一個可行性研究計畫我必須老實講喔院長你覺得一個跨縣市的一個可行性研究計畫大概需要多少錢看工程的難易度你直覺你覺得以新竹市你對新竹縣市一定熟嘛你對新竹縣市熟你覺得一個這樣的一個大輕軌的一個可行性研究你覺得大概需要多少錢"},{"start":756.11,"end":779.756,"text":"數百萬要要吧?數百萬喔?數百萬喔?做不起來,院長你真的不知道米價欸。9月份的時候新竹市政府用2200萬去做一個招標,流標,沒有人要來。因為它牽涉到的範圍非常的大。然後接下來預計要招標的費用大概要到四、五千萬。"},{"start":781.016,"end":807.31,"text":"然後我要特別提到因為新竹市政府的團隊跟新竹縣他們在今年3月初的時候拜會前副院長鄭文燦他找了交通部的鐵道局來希望交通部鐵道局他來整合新竹市縣市的一個網絡那當時新竹市政府說好他來做這樣子的一個配合先來做把這個招標動作把它弄出去可是現場他要求鐵道局補助"},{"start":808.8,"end":813.844,"text":"大新竹的輕軌對於解決大新竹地區的交通肯定是非常非常重要的那麼我們希望"},{"start":833.121,"end":837.503,"text":"如果新竹市政府提出需求還需要再更多的輔助可以來跟我講,他目前還沒有來講。"},{"start":862.113,"end":884.309,"text":"大新竹輕軌的時候也能夠比照辦理因為我們在110年曾經提過一個方案到交通部這邊來可是目前是依照113年3月27號的共識由新竹市政府在做理解 當時提出來狀態就卡到兩件事情因為竹科這個部分地方真的沒辦法去整合"},{"start":885.429,"end":909.243,"text":"因為他不只是新竹縣市的問題他還卡到了新竹科學園區的問題所以我們希望院長能夠指示部長這邊針對大新竹輕軌的時候能夠加把力讓大新竹輕軌變成桃竹苗大矽谷計畫很重要的一個配套的一個設施如果能夠跨到苗栗區因為"},{"start":910.043,"end":910.203,"text":"好,謝謝鄭委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（15時35分）主席好，我想請一下卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長好。NCC組織法在7月31號的時候總統府已經公布了，您後來其實還是用代理主委的方式去做這個事情，你覺得這個決策有沒有玩法弄權的嫌疑？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我這個完全是一個必要的權宜措施，否則的話NCC在那之後會變成無法執行它的政策跟業務，這樣對國家的影響、對人民影響會很大。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，我知道代理主委這件事情你們用的是NCC組織法第十六條，某個部分它確實是有一些可以解釋的空間，可是我們也覺得這個代理主委確實有爭議，因為我們確實也修正了這個法律。我現在要講的是，翁柏宗之前在暫代NCC主委的時候惹議，行政院這邊的說法是說依法辦理。NCC的前任委員林麗雲跟王維菁發文痛批NCC內部腐化，淪為首長制，結果翁柏宗在10月7號受訪時跳出來說他是依法行政，絕無不法。院長，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：從機關內部出來的人對機關的批評，我想NCC，包括代理主委跟所有NCC的同仁，甚至包括行政院都應該非常重視，如果屬實，必當檢討，甚至要做更多重要的處分；如果不是，要充分向外界說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，我聽到NCC在講依法行政的時候喊得這麼大聲，我真的覺得非常非常的諷刺，因為我覺得NCC根本就是打著依法行政的旗，幹著違法亂政的事情，我為什麼這麼講呢？院長，中天案在高等行政法院的判決下來之後，你有沒有看過這個判決書主文？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你看過判決書對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有很詳細，但我知道整個狀況。"],["鄭委員正鈐：判決主文裡面就很清楚講到原處分撤銷。院長，你知道這件事情，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你知道理由嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：判決來來去去，有的是針對程序上的，很少針對實質內容的，我知道狀況是如此。"],["鄭委員正鈐：判決主文很清楚的講到原處分撤銷……","翁柏宗，你已經進到院會裡面來，我不擋你上臺，可是你不要講話，我不擋你上臺，但你不要講話。在中天換照案的訴訟判決書第21頁裡面，它很清楚的直接講到「違反換照審查辦法第11條第3項後段就未來6年營運計畫各審查項目之評分基準規定，形同改變執照之核發標準，容已造成該5個審查項目之決策事實基礎錯誤而資訊不完全，足以影響所憑為審議不予換照之結論，無從推算回復，原處分自於法有違。」很清楚的講到它決策與事實的基礎錯誤，然後原處分於法有違，很清楚喔！所以為什麼我剛剛聽到翁柏宗在講說他完全依法行政的時候，我真的覺得超級諷刺，現在高等行政法院完全透過它的判決書，狠狠的打臉NCC，在這樣的一個情況之下，院長你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛有請教代理主委，他說現在NCC基於職權已經在上訴當中。既然在上訴，這個在法院當中還要做最後的決定，所以讓他從法律的救濟上再去努力，把NCC的立場說明清楚。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，我們絕對尊重這些法律的程序，可是在高等行政法院的判決書上寫得非常非常清楚，院長，我直接跟你講，它很清楚講到了NCC怎麼樣子違法亂政。109年11月中天換照的時候，根據衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業申設審查辦法，它在107年就已經修正了所有的評分標準，但NCC在109年的時候，還是用105年的標準來做審查。院長，這麼簡單的一個邏輯狀態，我嚴重的懷疑NCC是蓄意、是公然違法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員提醒，或許法律上大家還可以再進一步去研究，但申設的審查跟所謂換照是兩套不同的準則、標準來進行的，不能把它混為一談。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，換照當中，它一樣用了這樣的審查標準，所以判決書裡針對院長提的這個部分也很清楚提到了，行政規則沒有辦法去逾越母法。院長，我剛剛讓翁柏宗站在你旁邊，就是覺得你對這件事情可能不一定了解的這麼透澈……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要看他上訴的狀況怎麼樣。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我讓他站在你旁邊，可是我不想要讓他透過麥克風來講話，因為我覺得他的身分是有爭議的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有爭議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以院長，我希望你在針對依法行政這件事情的時候，能夠好好的去考量，因為NCC很明顯的狀態是它打著維持媒體自由的旗，幹著破壞新聞自由的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有這樣子。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這個狀態下，這個禮拜二的時候，我們提到了預算的相關問題，也提到了原民禁伐補償的部分，針對這個部分，我這邊簡單講一下，因為它還有更改的機會，因為這兩個禮拜協商沒有成果，和解飯也沒有成果，下個禮拜還要繼續。我覺得院長其實是可以說理論法的人，我們希望在這個事情當中，院長要堅持住，不要沉淪變成像NCC一樣，打著依法行政的旗，幹著破壞違法行政的事情，我們希望院長要堅持住這個部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會很堅持憲法第七十條憲法的理論以及預算法第九十一條裡面的規定。"],["鄭委員正鈐：憲法第七十條這個部分是預算送進立法院後我們在審的部分，我們沒有辦法去增加它，可是我們立法了之後，你這邊本來就有依法編列預算的責任。還有一個點，你對外說你有編列4萬塊，對不對？就是禁伐補償你編列了4萬塊，然後你又指責我們編列6萬塊是違憲，那你編列4萬塊的法源是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是依照預算法第九十一條，立法院在審預算的時候，它要增加歲出的時候，要徵詢行政院的意見，我的意見就是4萬塊。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在針對立法結果出來的狀態，你都完全不尊重的時候，我們希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有不尊重。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你這邊一定要真正的依法行政，不要沉淪變成像NCC。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有不尊重。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為我這邊還有第二個問題要問，禮拜二的時候我講到桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，當時也提到了一個部分，就是有關於財劃法的修正。我提到了一個部分，就是科學園區大矽谷計畫有把大新竹輕軌這個計畫納進去，院長知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這個計畫當中，我當時提到了一件事情，因為整個財劃法的發展過程當中，新竹市創稅是全國第三，可是配回率卻是全國最低。新竹市平均每一個人貢獻中央的創稅是65萬，為全國最高，比臺北市、新北市都還高，可是我們配回率卻是全國最低。你當時提到了一件事情，你說你會用一般性的補助給新竹市更多，對不對？我記得你當時是這樣回應。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是我會用，是行政院一直這樣在處理這些問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，可是我們看到的狀態並沒有，新竹市得到的一般性補助卻是全國倒數第三，只比金門、馬祖高，比澎湖還要低。這個部分，我為什麼特別提到這個情況……"],["卓院長榮泰：地方要提出需求，中央才能夠予以補助。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。院長，所以我特別提到這個部分，我希望院長能夠去落實桃竹苗大矽谷計畫裡面，對於大新竹輕軌的主張。這邊有一個狀態，就是按地方上面的人縮時攝影出來的結果，新竹市去科學園區工作大概每個人平均上下班要花兩個小時以上的車程。我們認為如果新竹市有比較好的交通運輸系統，不只是對在園區工作的工程師、對大新竹的人來說是好事，而且竹科產值可以再進一步的向上提升，因為每一個工程師幾乎都花他們每天上班時間的四分之一在交通上面，所以本席也利用今天這個機會，希望院長能夠出手來協助新竹大輕軌的落實。我想請教一下院長，你知道現在新竹大輕軌最大的問題在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：新竹縣市之間還是要談出一個可行的方法，我們才可以進行有效的、可行性的研究跟評估，市政府應該已經在辦理可行性報告的招標過程，我所瞭解是如此。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。院長你講到幾個重點，現在大新竹輕軌的狀態因為有縣市的問題，還有竹科的問題，所以我們希望院長能夠指示讓交通部來統籌規劃，有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，新竹市政府目前正在做可行性研究當中，我們要等到明年的第一季，看他們可不可以把可行性研究做完並報來交通部，交通部該協助的部分都會協助。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，理解。院長，我跟你提一下狀態，大新竹輕軌碰到兩個很大的問題，一個是沒有錢，所以我禮拜二特別提到財劃法的問題，因為地方根本沒有財力去支應這樣的重大建設；第二個部分就是溝通的問題，現在部長提到新竹市出來整合這樣的可行性研究計畫，我必須老實講，院長，你覺得一個跨縣市的可行性研究計畫大概需要多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：看工程的難易度，這個沒有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：憑你的直覺，你對新竹縣市一定熟嘛！對於這樣一個大輕軌的可行性研究，你覺得大概需要多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該數百萬要吧！"],["鄭委員正鈐：數百萬喔，做不起來啦！院長，你真的不知道米價欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：做不起來？我真的不知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：9月分的時候，新竹市政府用2,200萬去進行招標，但流標，沒有人要來，因為它牽涉到的範圍非常地大，接下來預計要招標的費用大概要到四、五千萬。我要特別提到，因為新竹市政府團隊跟新竹縣他們在今年3月初的時候拜會前副院長鄭文燦，他找了交通部鐵道局來，希望交通部鐵道局來整合新竹縣市的網絡；當時新竹市政府說好，他們來配合先把招標弄出去，可是在現場他們要求鐵道局補助。部長，你知道鐵道局願意給多少錢嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：請委員指示。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長也不知道喔！鐵道局竟然回應說給100萬。"],["陳部長世凱：應該都會給，可是這個通常要看地方政府所提出的需求。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，給100萬很少。我特別要提到這個狀態，就是大新竹輕軌對於解決大新竹地區的交通肯定是非常、非常重要的，我們希望交通部這邊能夠扮演起更積極的角色，就像……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，如果新竹市政府提出需求，還需要再更多的補助可以來跟我們講，他們目前還沒有來講。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。所以我在這邊也特別跟你提到一個狀態，就像桃機一樣，機場捷運是交通部這邊來做的，像基隆捷運一開始起頭的研究評估，都是鐵道局這邊做的，所以我們希望大新竹輕軌也能夠比照辦理，因為我們在110年曾經提過一個方案到交通部這邊……"],["陳部長世凱：可是目前是依照113年3月27號的共識，由新竹市政府在做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。當時提出來的狀態就卡到兩件事情，因為竹科這個部分，地方真的沒辦法去整合，因為它不只是新竹縣市的問題，它還卡到新竹科學園區的問題，所以我們希望院長能夠指示部長，針對大新竹輕軌能夠加把力，讓大新竹輕軌變成桃竹苗大矽谷計畫很重要的一個配套設施，如果能夠跨到苗栗去，因為桃竹苗大矽谷計畫也到苗栗去，我覺得也許是更好的一個狀態。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請新竹市政府趕快就它的都市發展營運計畫跟未來的各項條件，提出一個完整的說明出來。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":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大廠去設廠那必須考慮到這個地區他自己縣市或是周遭鄰近地區整個能源的供應能不能配得上所有的快速的發展"},{"start":367.24,"end":389.347,"text":"張嬅縣是離岸豐電的主要的豐廠那也提供了非常多綠能相關的那在就這個部分的確對於張嬅縣民來說如果沒有高科技高科技最需要的綠電都是由張嬅來提供的時候那為什麼"},{"start":390.794,"end":391.875,"text":"是不是因為換了部長?"},{"start":419.528,"end":444.118,"text":"過去李孟彥部長他就是彰化人,他說的時候對於彰化就特別的友善,現在因為我們陳部長他是台中人,所以在相關建設的考量上面就沒有對於彰化未來的規劃以及發展。"},{"start":446.616,"end":463.933,"text":"我們剛剛部長說了20它是一個科學園區啊,並不是交通部在主管。我知道,我是說交通的部分啊。那因為過去李孟彥部長他來我們彰化考察的時候,他的確說了20中科的用水用電。"},{"start":465.014,"end":467.656,"text":"的地方要提出或是委員提出"},{"start":481.144,"end":483.385,"text":"行政院沒改組嗎?是不是?"},{"start":483.385,"end":485.405,"text":"行政院現在沒有改組嗎?"},{"start":485.405,"end":502.289,"text":"只有換了閣員啦!或是地方政府提出他有什麼樣的需求,我們會進行評估可行性怎麼樣做,以及配合整個周遭的公共建設設施怎麼來執行。這個是整套的,而不是說,我要給你方便,那就就這麼方便,不是這樣子的事情。"},{"start":502.369,"end":530.063,"text":"不是,當然是地方政府,地方政府已經提出申請了,彰化縣政府已經提出申請了,現在就是希望我們行政院能夠大力的支持嘛,是不是?那我們當然希望,不只在交通建設方面,不只在公共工程的其他的協助上面,都可以大力支持彰化縣的這個經濟發展啊,是不是?"},{"start":530.979,"end":532.68,"text":"再來就是我們今年是不是對於高鐵的用電有給予補助?"},{"start":560.899,"end":583.827,"text":"高鐵他應該沒有特別給補助沒有給補助嗎?他的用電有沒有漲價?跟大家都一樣所以他用電是有漲的嗎?是有漲的他用電有漲嗎?有,他有漲那所以高鐵的票價有可能要漲價嗎?報告委員,目前高鐵沒有在討論票價調漲的問題所以沒有?不會漲價?目前還沒有討論到這個"},{"start":587.25,"end":611.619,"text":"所以你的意思是高鐵的票價不會漲價嗎目前沒有討論漲價所以應該沒有漲價這個議題這是第一點那第二點我有提醒高鐵公司在他們營運的狀況還可以的狀況底下要考慮到自己要擔負這個公共運輸大家通勤的這個責任因為運輸本來就是一個通勤上面的責任必須要負起"},{"start":612.841,"end":617.303,"text":"高鐵票價會不會漲價?不會漲價嗎?所以你承諾未來不會漲價?我很難承諾多久的未來我不曉得,還是委員您定義一下多久?"},{"start":637.464,"end":664.813,"text":"目前不會因為電價的調漲而漲價,我能跟您這樣說。那未來票價會不會漲?未來,至少。今年票價會不會漲?你要定義嘛,今年票價會不會漲?今年不會漲。那明年會不會漲?你現在是保證今年不會漲?那明年會不會漲?我要看高鐵公司有沒有提出來要漲價的方案,如果他有提出來我們再來討論。但目前為止高鐵公司並沒有提出漲價的方案。"},{"start":666.809,"end":673.275,"text":"我們希望未來能不能再彰化增加再增加班次呢?"},{"start":674.522,"end":696.466,"text":"因為我看到現在其實彰化的高鐵站已經越來越多人搭乘了 在這樣的情況下過去李部長他今年來的時候有在田中站增加了高鐵的班次 未來我們是不是可以繼續增加高鐵的班次呢"},{"start":696.806,"end":711.691,"text":"高鐵的班次因為我們有一個班次的整體調整所以全國各地其實都有增加班次那彰化如果委員希望再多增加一些我來去跟高鐵公司來商量這件事看他們可不可以研議一下看在彰化站我們再來增加班次"},{"start":712.278,"end":734.454,"text":"我希望我們政府的這個施政不應該要分縣市我們應該共同的協助就是所有各縣市那如果在於我們20中科的這個用水用電方面因為我們知道現在AI的需求很旺盛嘛"},{"start":734.974,"end":735.254,"text":"是 沒錯"},{"start":751.074,"end":765.746,"text":"那是不是能請卓院長可以大力的促成我們解除二齡中科用水用電的限制的這個問題呢?跟委員報告第一件事情您剛剛說的跟我的想法完全一致我們就是均衡台灣"},{"start":766.747,"end":781.324,"text":"各個族群均衡,各個地域均衡,各個產業均衡。你講的一致是說均衡台灣的部分一致,但是二齡中科的用水用電的限制放寬沒有一致是不是?高鐵的部分它也是個營運的公司,它如果認為市場需要"},{"start":782.065,"end":784.406,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":801.472,"end":808.157,"text":"所以,就是說,你認為未來20中科的用水用電是可以開放的,是不是?要看是什麼樣的廠商,多少廠商要來,他能夠提供多少。"},{"start":831.297,"end":858.33,"text":"我們不夠用什麼方式來解決所以你認為二零中科的這個用水用電是可以開放的是不是我現在不敢這麼認為我看實際的需要有多少實際的需要我不知道實際有多少廠商要來他會用電用水用多少你為什麼會剛才就說可以啊只要提出申請你就大力協助嗎就可以嗎只要提出申請你就大力協助嗎"},{"start":859.551,"end":862.573,"text":"我希望我希望在你下台前我們可以看到你大力的協助我們彰化縣用水用電以及我們交通建設好不好"},{"start":881.144,"end":881.424,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝院長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":216,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（15時19分）謝謝江副院長。我想要請卓院長、陳部長，還有公共工程的陳主委。"],["主席：好，卓院長、陳部長及陳主委，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：卓院長好。我想請問一下陳主委，在宜蘭的鐵路高架化的時候，你有提到他們的總預算是501.29億，然後中央補助395.57億，地方是105.72億，可是因為它的財力分級是三到五級中間，所以你降低了宜蘭的自籌款，是不是？你能不能說明一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，這個是關於土地取得的部分，用地取得的部分因為將來是屬於國營臺灣鐵路公司所有，所以我們評估用地由中央來負擔。另外就是調度機場，機場將來也是臺灣鐵路公司……"],["謝委員衣鳯：調度？我之前……"],["陳主任委員金德：就是那個調度場，調度場這部分也是跟用地取得一樣，是由中央來負擔。除此之外，因為它的財政等級是第四級，所以是按照非自償性的比例來分配。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是我們彰化市的鐵路高架，你看我們的用地費用是26.17億，我們非自償性的經費是48.3億，那可以降低多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：非自償性是因為中央、地方按照財政等級來分配。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，如果基於你剛才說的用地，因為未來這些都是屬於臺鐵的，那我們可以……"],["陳主任委員金德：因為彰化這個部分的計畫還在審議當中，是不是請部長來說明？"],["陳部長世凱：這個目前在做綜合規劃的過程當中，目前的進度大概是在綜合規劃。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在綜合規劃過程當中，那你能不能說呢？你能不能說一下呢？基地費可以省多少？這不能夠……"],["陳部長世凱：你是說費用嗎？"],["謝委員衣鳯：陳主委，不能因為你是宜蘭縣民，你就對宜蘭的事情特別的重視；也不能因為陳部長是臺中市民、你不是彰化人，你就對我們彰化都不重視，那我們彰化的部分呢？"],["陳部長世凱：這個都相當重視啦！目前正在綜合規劃，比例的部分其實之前有談到一定的比例，我相信委員也應該很清楚，大概就是照那個下去走，如果還有問題的話，其實我們可以再召開專案會議來討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我們的財政等級跟宜蘭一樣，都是第四級，在這個情況下，為什麼會有這樣子的差別？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，因為宜蘭的鐵路高架已經完成環評，已經進入細部設計，所以它馬上就要提綜合規劃，那……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以如果等到完成環評，然後進入綜合規劃的時候……"],["陳主任委員金德：這將來另案再協商。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那可以比照宜蘭的方式嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個可以另案協商，到時候我們會再來協商。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你沒有承諾啊！陳部長，你沒有承諾啊！"],["陳部長世凱：每一個縣市的狀況不一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你能不能比照宜蘭的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會來協商。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是可以比照宜蘭的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會來協商，但是現在宜蘭也還沒定案。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是剛才陳主委說了，他已經協助了嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：有協助但還沒定案。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來如果完成環評，可以比照嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：大家可以專案來協商啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：可不可以比照？"],["陳部長世凱：專案協商要看縣政府所提出的需求是什麼。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，今年李孟諺部長來到彰化，就是看76線相關延伸案的時候，他提到對於未來二林中科的用水、用電是朝著一個開放的方向，卓院長，該不會現在交通部長換人了，是不是整個規劃就會改變？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府的政策，應該是求其穩定，部長更換之後，原來好的政策一定是繼續進行，如果原來還在討論當中的，當然會由新部長加入個人對專業上的考量或是團隊的考量……"],["謝委員衣鳯：他當初說，用水、用電會朝著開放的方向……"],["卓院長榮泰：你所謂開放是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：可以爭取讓更多高科技AI的相關產業進到二林中科，因為現在中科它的使用沒有超過一半，未來我們經過了76線的延伸，它是怎麼樣子？銜接1號到3號，以及台61線從北到彰化這裡都已經通車了，是不是？如果在這樣子的情況下，造成這邊路網的方便，是不是可以把二林中科的用水、用電也都放寬限制呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前各個地方縣市的首長都很積極在招商，尤其歡迎高科技，甚至是國際大廠去設廠，但必須考慮到地區所在縣市或是周遭鄰近地區整個能源的供應能不能配得上所有快速的發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：彰化縣是離岸風電主要的風場，也提供了非常多綠能相關的，這個部分的確對彰化縣民來說，如果沒有高科技，而高科技最需要的綠電都是由彰化來提供的時候，為什麼要獨厚其他的縣市？為什麼行政院都沒有考慮到彰化縣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院沒有不考慮到哪一個縣市，只要是看……"],["謝委員衣鳯：行政院為什麼沒有考慮到彰化縣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有不考慮到哪一個縣市，只要地方上能夠提出充裕的土地，經過合理的開發，也有充裕的水源，在能源的供應上也不會造成太大的負擔或是困擾，都應該全力來……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是因為換了部長？過去……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，絕對不會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去的李孟諺部長就是彰化人……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您說的二林園區是科學園區，跟交通部沒有關係。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但他說的時候，對於彰化就特別地友善，現在因為陳部長是臺中人，所以在相關建設的考量上面就沒有對彰化未來的規劃以及發展給予協助。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，剛剛部長說了，二林是一個科學園區，並不是交通部主管的。"],["陳部長世凱：跟交通部沒有關係。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，我是說交通的部分。因為過去李孟諺部長來我們彰化考察的時候，他的確說了，二林中科的用水、用電未來會大幅度地給予協助，為什麼現在已經改變了？所以我現在才來問卓院長，你們現在都站在上面，我就直接問你為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：地方要提出或是委員能夠提出……"],["謝委員衣鳯：行政院沒改組，是不是？行政院現在沒有改組，只是換了閣員嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員提出或是地方政府提出有什麼樣的需求，我們會進行評估可行性怎麼樣做，以及配合整個週遭的公共建設設施怎麼來執行。這個是整套的，而不是要我給你方便，然後就這麼方便，不是這樣子的事情，到底地方需要什麼東西要告訴我們。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，當然是地方政府已經提出申請了，彰化縣政府已經提出申請……"],["卓院長榮泰：那已經在程序當中了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在就是希望行政院能夠大力地支持，是不是？我們當然希望不只在交通建設方面，不只在公共工程的其他協助上面，都可以大力支持彰化縣的經濟發展，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們絕對願意這麼做，所以我們訂了很多的計畫，也編列了相當的預算，未來我們還有區域性的發展，從北北基、桃竹苗到中彰投到嘉南，以及到高高屏到花東，都有整套的計畫在做。我們希望大家一起來把這個計畫的每個地區、區域都把它完整起來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：再來，我們今年是不是對高鐵的用電有給予補助？"],["卓院長榮泰：高鐵它……"],["陳部長世凱：應該沒有特別給補助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒有給予補助嗎？它的用電有沒有漲價？"],["陳部長世凱：跟大家都一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以它的用電是有漲的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是有漲的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：它用電有漲嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有，它有漲。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以高鐵的票價有可能要漲價嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前高鐵沒有在討論票價調漲的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以不會漲價？"],["陳部長世凱：目前還沒有討論到這個。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你的意思是高鐵的票價不會漲價嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前沒有討論漲價，所以應該沒有漲價這個議題，這是第一點；第二點，我有提醒高鐵公司，在他們營運狀況還可以的狀況底下，自己要考慮到擔負公共運輸讓大家通勤的責任，因為運輸本來就必須負起通勤上面的責任。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，我是在請教部長，高鐵票價會不會漲價？"],["陳部長世凱：目前就是沒有這個案子，所以沒有討論漲價這件事。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會漲價嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：現在不會漲價。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你承諾未來不會漲價？"],["陳部長世凱：未來是多久的未來，這個我……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是你承諾未來不會漲價？"],["陳部長世凱：我很難承諾，多久的未來我不曉得，還是委員您定義一下多久的未來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！我現在在問你啊！你是不是承諾今年？"],["陳部長世凱：目前不會因為電價的調漲而漲價，我能跟您這樣說。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那未來票價會不會漲？"],["陳部長世凱：至少……"],["謝委員衣鳯：今年的票價會不會漲……"],["陳部長世凱：今年不會漲、今年不會漲。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你要定義嘛！今年的票價會不會漲？"],["陳部長世凱：今年不會漲、今年不會漲。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那明年會不會漲？"],["陳部長世凱：明年……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你現在是保證今年不會漲，那明年會不會漲？"],["陳部長世凱：我要看高鐵公司有沒有提出來要漲價的方案，如果它有提出來，我們再來討論，但目前為止高鐵公司並沒有提出漲價的方案。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們希望未來能不能在彰化再增加班次呢？因為我看到現在其實彰化的高鐵站已經有越來越多人搭乘了，在這樣的情況下，李部長今年來的時候，有在田中站增加了高鐵的班次，未來我們是不是可以繼續增加高鐵的班次呢？"],["陳部長世凱：高鐵的班次，因為我們有一個班次的整體調整，所以全國各地其實都有增加班次，至於彰化，如果委員希望再多增加一些，我來跟高鐵公司商量這件事，看他們可不可以研議一下在彰化站再來增加班次。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我希望我們政府的施政不應該分縣市，我們應該共同的協助所有各縣市。如果談到我們二林中科的用水用電方面，因為我們知道現在AI的需求很旺盛，很多廠商都希望設廠，如果解除限制，再加上交通的方便，身為交通部長，不就是為了讓我們交通可以便利，讓我們的經濟可以發展，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是不是請卓院長可以大力的促成我們解除二林中科用水用電的限制呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，第一件事情，您剛剛說的跟我的想法完全一致，我們就是均衡臺灣，各個族群均衡，各個地域均衡，各個產業均衡……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你講的一致是均衡臺灣的部分一致，但是二林中科用水用電的限制放寬沒有一致，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。第二個，高鐵也是一個營運的公司，它如果認為市場需要，它的人力、車輛、班次的調配可以，它一定會往最可以去獲得盈利、利潤的方向走，這是讓它公司去做專業上的評估。","至於用水用電，我剛剛說到了，地方政府要衡量，自己要招商的時候，要考慮到他們那裡的能源能力、水電的能力、土地的能力，如果提出了合理的計畫到中央，如果是科學園區，國科會會處理，甚至未來有需要國發會統一來做衡量的話，我們不會有縣市的分別，這個請委員放心。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你認為未來二林中科的用水用電是可以開放的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：要看是什麼樣的廠商、多少廠商要來，它能夠提供多少，如果我們不夠，用什麼方式來解決，這個要……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你認為二林中科的用水用電是可以開放的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在不敢這麼認為，我要看實際的需要有多少……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你剛才就說可以啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：實際的需要我不知道……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你剛才就說可以，怎麼現在又說不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：實際有多少廠商要來，它會用電用水用多少……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你剛才就說可以啊！只要提出申請，你就大力協助……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！我說地方要提出啊……"],["謝委員衣鳯：就可以嘛！是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：提出以後，我們……"],["謝委員衣鳯：只要提出申請，你就大力協助嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果提出一個合理的規劃，而且各方面的條件都符合，我們不會有縣市的考量，一定會全力跟地方合作來開發……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我希望在你下臺前，我們可以看到你大力的協助我們彰化縣的用水用電以及交通建設，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛說的第一個條件，我可能不能跟你講時間。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我當然知道，我就是希望在你下臺前，在彰化的交通建設、在我們的用水用電，都可以獲得行政院的協助，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：你快點讓我下臺，我就快點承諾你。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你是希望下臺的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果能夠讓政局穩定的話。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是臺北市立大學城市發展學系的同學，我們在此歡迎你們來立法院參訪。","報告院會，賴惠員委員、陳冠廷委員之質詢，均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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委員長好 部長好 首先恭喜部長能夠來 我想 希望說未來在我們台中地方市府海上所有的交通建設 大家可以密切的合作 讓我們台中海上的保溫可以快速的提升 能夠銜接整個這個一個直轄市的交通一個狀態能夠往上的來成長 我覺得各位發表"},{"start":54.55,"end":64.456,"text":"沙鹿要設站捷運通龍井發展新產業臺中大振興請教院長部長這個看到這個有沒有熟悉的感覺"},{"start":69.036,"end":70.396,"text":"這兩段文字我想這是2013年我們陳部長當時在參選立委時的政見"},{"start":83.194,"end":103.441,"text":"這裏有很多件都現在遇到很大的困難第一就是我們台鐵海線班次一直無法增加受限的原因就是因為它是單軌那車次無法提升那造成了班次少然後乘客意願低落的主要原因"},{"start":104.221,"end":128.132,"text":"那我在日前向交通部鐵道局詢問目前海線雙軌高架的進度﹐他的回答是113年6月23日含請臺中市政府回應修正報告書。那臺中市政府科證依國發會審查意見修正報告書﹐在臺中市政府113年2月23日提報可行性修正報告給交通部。"},{"start":128.939,"end":144.012,"text":"那3月29部在報院續審那國發會6月19號含送審查意見給交通部每一次這個意見修正補正公文往返花費的時間不只是時間"},{"start":145.453,"end":163.491,"text":"按照現在通膨跟物價上漲的速度每一次預算都往上攀升那如果今天台中市政府再次提報修正計畫給交通部部再報院、院再交國發會、國發會又再提修正意見一次就半年了"},{"start":164.344,"end":190.371,"text":"一次往返這半年,這半年半年這樣到現在來,我每一次在總執行三催四請,都是在為國家要節省預算,要希望這個交通的建設能夠加快速度。那今天院長跟部長我在這邊要請教你,有沒有更快的速度、更好的效率能夠讓這個案子能夠盡速的核定,可不可以告訴我一個時間表。"},{"start":192.121,"end":213.768,"text":"好,報告委員,這件事情其實確實,現在台中市政府正在修訂計畫書當中,不過其實每次往返我也覺得這樣很浪費時間,所以我也有拜託我們的鐵道局,他們也確實也趕快去催促了台中市政府在8月2號、8月22號跟9月27都喊請市政府要儘速的提供這個修正的報告書,"},{"start":214.468,"end":239.962,"text":"那目前為止市政府還沒提供來,但是我跟委員承諾,如果他提來了,我們在布的這個程序上面,我們會盡量來加速。因為這也是長期我們在爭取的一個希望有的一個地方的建設。那當時在,甚至在胡志強市長在擔任市長的時候,我就跟蔡其昌委員一起去爭取了可行性評估的這個經費。那也當然過了很多年,鄉親都很期盼,交通部一定會來加速,所以這一點您放心。"},{"start":242.079,"end":262.229,"text":"接著我再來問海線雙軌高價目前經費中央負擔221億台中市府負擔177億如果再拖下去未來造價會更高此外烏日大慶捷運高價化這個部分這是我們補償你的選區給你替路告解這部分從2013年"},{"start":268.769,"end":277.578,"text":"到現在超過11年了啦,一直在耽擱,我不曉得說中央到底誰在卡,在卡什麼,為什麼這個進度都沒有辦法提前。"},{"start":278.257,"end":300.135,"text":"那現在的程序一樣,在今年的3月23日,呈報行政院續審,續行審議。那國發會在6月19日,又函送審議的審查意見,又交給交通部。 鐵道局6月27日,又函請臺中市府回應及修正報告。所以我剛才說的,你給我回答的,這次我又跟你說,"},{"start":301.817,"end":309.337,"text":"這個部分來來往往來來往往短短的3.7公里總預算才83億到現在還卡在中央"},{"start":310.151,"end":333.486,"text":"那如果說,上個會期我們也辦理會館考察,那現在到底是在卡什麼?你到底可以跟他說說,你的臨來,保定你的臨來,有辦法動工嗎?這案件有辦法合併動工嗎?這個案子跟剛剛的那個海線雙軌高架其實是同一個案子,他們併在一起,所以我剛剛有報告過,現在我們的交通"},{"start":334.026,"end":334.507,"text":"那交通部這邊會來加速"},{"start":343.936,"end":365.711,"text":"我們東北地區重要的我們鐵路建設、軌道建設如果溝通上有問題、有困難我願意說我們來召開一個中央跟地方的協調會議那也請院長、部長如果可以請你們來參加讓我們把所有的問題都釐清到底中央在卡、誰在卡還是地方有什麼"},{"start":366.531,"end":370.473,"text":"報告委員,如果這個是部長當年選舉提出的政見,那我想部長要再謹慎的去跟地方了解一下。因為他沒有當選,是不是地方的人士不希望他這麼做?"},{"start":390.44,"end":412.409,"text":"這十幾年齁 如果沒有大家這個彼此的 我跟你講 現在台中市政府卡在中央的款項 中央的核定跟補助 地方沒有辦法靠一己之力 台中市政府做不來 一定要有中央的幫助 所以我希望說我們院長跟部長能夠大力的來促成"},{"start":413.669,"end":434.921,"text":"接下來我再來提就是我們高鐵特區現在積極發展烏日高鐵特區然後將台中發展成會議及會展中心導入觀光、休閒、商務等進駐台中這部分在現在的高鐵有一個投資案投資金額超過260億開發面積超過15公頃"},{"start":439.003,"end":467.983,"text":"新建全國最大的購物商城,影城,五星級酒店,還有A級辦公大樓。 購物中心的樓地擺面積超過9萬平,規模是臺中新光三列加上大圓白的1.6倍大,臺北101的4.8倍,預計在115年第4季要完工,將會是全臺最大的百貨購物商城。 但在這個美好的憧憬之下,我們臺中人最擔心的就是交通的瓶頸。"},{"start":469.372,"end":483.25,"text":"10月15日禮拜二我們江副院長也邀請部長率領交通部的團隊進行討論本席的辦公室也有例席參加那現在知道就是說一個月內要組成專案小組要針對國道一一增設交流道"},{"start":483.933,"end":506.323,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":507.515,"end":535.047,"text":"預期的目標跟方向我們當然希望未來整個商城起來之後那個地方不要有交通打擊的狀況那目前當然所謂的交通的輸運剛剛委員有提到那邊蠻複雜的有高鐵有台鐵有捷運還有高速公路還有快速道路那當然重要的是市區道路在那個地方要連結出來也是很重要那目前台中市政府正在辦理就是高鐵特定區那個地方的整個交通的整體的規劃"},{"start":536.147,"end":542.93,"text":"那目前他們的案子其實蠻多有臺灣轉移 有沒有溝通?部長有跟市政府溝通嗎?跟市政府交通局做過溝通嗎?"},{"start":542.93,"end":555.515,"text":"那一天我在江副院長那邊有說過了齁我跟你講現在你也知道 交通部會進入來協助我目前也已經折承了運研所、高工局跟公路局各單位大家一起參與跟他們一起來討論做一個專案的處理"},{"start":558.337,"end":575.807,"text":"現在高鐵特區光是上下班時間車輛回堵到高架橋上這是每天都發生的未來這個115年商城完工之後那個會非常的困難所以你們現在一定要儘早提早來啟動那另外我要再提醒"},{"start":576.741,"end":603.164,"text":"除了王田這個國道1號烏日閘道的偵測部分那我相信我們高工局這個部分他有提出要偵測閘道的困難但是我希望交通部能夠盡以你們的專業然後來了解能夠來積極的協調如果能夠偵測這個烏日閘道的部分利用烏日區他的現有的一個道路的一個路廊"},{"start":603.644,"end":603.904,"text":"主席"},{"start":614.296,"end":634.353,"text":"因為烏日地區我們知道這10年來移入的人口超過1萬人那尤其都是集中在高鐵特區那原本交通的負擔就很大加上這個鐵道局的促餐案未來會更吃緊所以中央千萬不要袖手旁觀中央能做的一定要先啟動這一點部長能不能做到"},{"start":635.411,"end":643.721,"text":"這一點我們已經要組專案小組了,所以這個部分委員不用擔心,江副院長有出面協調,這個部分我們交通部會來協助。"},{"start":645.538,"end":664.733,"text":"好,再來,剛剛提到的這個議題,鐵道建設,那所有的捷運,臺中的捷運都是,不管是北捷、高捷都經歷過這樣的陣痛期,都要點線面來形成這個捷運路網,那都是因為一開始的路線不完整,轉程的困難,民眾搭乘運不足,"},{"start":665.441,"end":685.861,"text":"那所以現在台中除了綠線已經通車,藍線可行性評估核定,那目前正在進行的機場捷運,還有我們的機場捷運就是橘線,那捷運藍線延伸到太平,捷運紫線就是我們屯區環狀線,還有捷運綠線延伸到大坑及彰化的部分,"},{"start":686.533,"end":713.533,"text":"那我今天要說的是捷運局限的部分因為他串聯屯區霧峰然後臺中火車站最後來到臺中國際機場那我想了解一下目前的進度那依照我現在所知道的就是113年7月2號的時候交通部召開捷運的審查會原則上同意那請臺中市政府依審查意見修正目前呢臺中市政府正在修正當中"},{"start":714.594,"end":738.509,"text":"我們在跟施政委的交通局還有鐵道局在沙鹿會刊主要是希望能夠透過爭取局限的延伸段然後呢這個由台中機場延伸到沙鹿與臺灣大道的藍線做銜接就如同剛剛本席前面講到的捷運要達到入網的程度才能提升旅客的乘車意願那未來"},{"start":739.47,"end":742.963,"text":"這個路線看起來最長乘車人士最多的路線應該就是藍線"},{"start":745.305,"end":771.07,"text":"那原先規劃的捷運局限只有在台中火車站跟南線有交會所以希望能夠在海線也可以有交會處這樣可以擴大整個捷運的路網那以支線的方式讓捷運局限跟南線有更完善的一個轉乘機制能夠串聯台中港及台中國際機場就能夠形成更完整的打造捷運路網來發揮運輸的最大效益"},{"start":771.75,"end":792.84,"text":"另外捷運局限的部分因這個當地的要求往北的部分也希望能夠延伸到清水清水人口近年來也急速的成長目前人口已經突破9萬這兩段的延伸線 院長部長可不可以支持"},{"start":796.436,"end":811.267,"text":"報告委員,這個部分其實局限正在臺中市政府它的可研當中,所以延伸的部分其實可以放得進去,那如果有需要經費可研的部分,可簡訊研究的部分有需要經費,交通部也都支持。"},{"start":812.06,"end":827.127,"text":"對,所以我們在15號的時候,我們副院長這邊召集的這個協商會議,院長、部長、部長當你們做成協議,就是說把延伸的部分也一併提出,納入這一次的一個會議、一個修正。那好,那我想"},{"start":829.209,"end":857.243,"text":"院長部長如果支持我希望說這不是口頭上最主要就是行動行動的支持最重要那臺中市已經成為第二大城市那也是我們國冷藍奶北氧必經之地都要經過臺中那未來臺中的發展也是對整個臺灣有一個最臺中的發展對臺灣的幫助也最大臺中市每一年創稅給中央接近2000億"},{"start":858.683,"end":884.395,"text":"那但是中央不管透過統籌分配或者是其他的一般補助到回到台中的都不足大概在800億左右那這樣子的部分所以我們希望在任何的不管是尤其是交通建設不要大小眼我們看台中也好、高雄也好、台南也好不要把台中看作最衰末台中的比例永遠是最少"},{"start":884.815,"end":901.953,"text":"所以這部分我希望既然部長你容認了你能夠擔任這個交通部的部長那過去你的選區在我們大烏龍希望你能夠重視我們台中市的發展好 院長部長平常有在搭乘大眾捷運系統嗎"},{"start":903.148,"end":904.949,"text":"目前台鐵我是有承諾在過年之前"},{"start":934.4,"end":935.407,"text":"好,謝謝原委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":153,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（15時3分）大會主席江啟臣副院長、各位列席官員，大家好。主席，有請行政院卓院長、交通部陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長、陳部長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長好，部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：首先恭喜部長，我想除了恭喜你以外，我們希望未來在臺中地方市區海線所有的交通建設，大家可以密切合作，讓我們臺中海線的部分可以快速的提升，能夠銜接整個……讓一個直轄市的交通狀態能夠往上來成長。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起來打拚。"],["顏委員寬恒：「沙鹿要設站，捷運通龍井，發展新產業，臺中大振興」，要請教院長、部長，看到這個有沒有熟悉的感覺？"],["陳部長世凱：有，非常熟悉，委員可能有去看我的臉書喔。"],["顏委員寬恒：這兩段文字是2013年陳部長當時在參選立委時的政見啦，其中有很多件現在遇到很大的困難，第一就是臺鐵海線班次一直無法增加，受限的原因就是因為它是單軌，車次無法提升是造成班次少然後乘客意願低落的主要原因，日前我向交通部鐵道局詢問目前海線雙軌高架的進度，他的回答是113年6月23日函請臺中市政府回應修正報告書，臺中市政府刻正依國發會審查意見修正報告書，臺中市政府113年2月23日提報可行性修正報告給交通部；3月29日部再報院續審；國發會6月19日函送審查意見給交通部。每一次意見修正、補正公文往返花費的時間，不只是時間，按照現在通膨和物價上漲的速度，每一次預算都往上攀升。如果今天臺中市政府再次提報修正計畫給交通部，部再報院，院再交國發會，國發會又再提修正意見，一次往返就半年，又再半年、半年這樣子，直到現在，我每一次在總質詢三催四請，都是在為國家節省預算，希望交通建設能夠加快速度。","今天我在這邊要請教院長跟部長，有沒有更快的速度、更好的效率，能夠讓這個案子儘速核定，可不可以告訴我一個時間表？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，這件事情確實現在臺中市政府正在修訂計畫書當中。其實每次往返我也覺得這樣很浪費時間，所以我有拜託鐵道局，他們確實也趕快去催促了臺中市政府，在8月2日、8月22日及9月27日都函請市政府要儘速提供修正報告書。到目前為止市政府還沒提供，但是我跟委員承諾，如果它提來了，在部的程序上面我們會儘量加速，因為這也是長期我們在爭取，希望能夠有的一個地方建設。甚至在胡志強市長擔任市長的時候，我就跟蔡其昌委員一起去爭取了可行性評估的經費。當然過了很多年，鄉親都很期盼，交通部一定會加速，所以這點您放心。"],["顏委員寬恒：接著我再問，海線雙軌高架目前的經費，中央負擔221億、臺中市政府負擔177億，如果再拖下去，未來造價會更高。此外，烏日大慶鐵路高架化，這是部長的選區，這個部分從2013年到現在也超過11年了，一直在耽擱，我不曉得中央到底誰在卡、在卡什麼，為什麼這個進度都沒有辦法提前？現在的程序也一樣，今年3月23日號陳報行政院續行審議；國發會在6月19日函送審查意見，又交給交通部；鐵道局6月27日又函請臺中市政府回應及修正報告書。所以我剛才說的跟你回答的，到現在我又跟你說，這個部分來來往往、來來往往，短短的3.7公里，總預算才83億，到現在還卡在中央。上個會期我們也辦理會勘考察……"],["陳部長世凱：目前不是卡……"],["顏委員寬恒：那現在到底是在卡什麼？你可以跟我說到底……"],["陳部長世凱：現在在市政府……"],["顏委員寬恒：部長，你任內有辦法動工嗎？這個案件有辦法核定動工嗎？你給我一個答復，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我跟委員報告，這個案子跟剛剛的那個海線雙軌高架，其實是同一個案子，它們併在一起。所以我剛剛報告過，現在鐵道局正在催促市政府趕快把修正的報告交上來，那交通部這邊會加速。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們中部地區重要的鐵路建設、軌道建設，如果溝通上有問題、有困難，我願意說我們來召開一個中央和地方的協調會議，也請院長、部長，如果可以，請你們參加。我們把所有的問題都釐清，到底中央在卡、誰在卡，還是地方有什麼工作沒有做好……"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，我剛剛說過現在修正報告在市政府……"],["顏委員寬恒：不要用這樣公文往返……"],["陳部長世凱：我們在等市政府。"],["顏委員寬恒：十多年了！這個十幾年了！"],["陳部長世凱：對，確實是很久了，現在在等市政府。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，如果這個是部長當年選舉提出的政見，那我想部長要再謹慎地去跟地方瞭解一下。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然，對啊！就是這樣，我今天來這裡就是要提醒你。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他沒有當選，是不是地方的人士不希望他這麼做？"],["顏委員寬恒：這十幾年如果沒有大家彼此的……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！它如果這麼好，應該要讓他當選才對……"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，你……"],["卓院長榮泰：他沒有當選。要跟地方好好地談，如果真的現在要做，要好好地計畫。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在臺中市政府又卡在中央，中央的款項、中央的核定和補助，地方沒有辦法靠一己之力，臺中市政府做不來，一定要有中央的幫助。所以我希望院長跟部長能夠大力地來促成。"],["陳部長世凱：中央一定會來幫助。"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來，現在積極發展烏日高鐵特區，然後將臺中發展成會議及會展中心，導入觀光、休閒、商務等進駐臺中，這個部分現在高鐵有一個投資案，投資金額超過260億，開發面積超過15公頃，要興建全國最大的購物商城、影城、五星級酒店還有A級辦公大樓，會議中心的樓地板面積超過9萬坪，規模是臺中新光三越加上大遠百的1.6倍大、臺北101的4.8倍大，預計在115年第4季要完工，將會是全臺最大的百貨購物商城。但是在這個美好的憧憬之下，臺中人最擔心的就是交通瓶頸，10月15日（禮拜二）江副院長也邀請部長率領交通部的團隊進行討論，本席辦公室也有列席參加，現在知道一個月內要針對國道1號增設交流道、優化74號高鐵匝道、74號烏日匝道以及國道1號王田交流道的部分組成專案小組。因為高鐵特區是三鐵共構，還有快速道路、高速公路，交付臺中市政府的部分光靠臺中市政府做不來，壓力也太大了，所以這個專案小組組成之後，可不可以請部長告訴我預期的目標跟方向是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：預期的目標跟方向我們當然希望未來整個商城起來之後，那個地方不要有交通打結的狀況，目前當然……所謂的交通疏運，剛剛委員有提到那邊滿複雜的，有高鐵、有臺鐵、有捷運，還有高速公路、快速道路，當然，重要的是市區道路在那個地方要聯結出來也是很重要。目前臺中市政府正在辦理高鐵特定區那個地方整個交通的整體規劃，目前他們的案子其實滿多，有……"],["顏委員寬恒：有沒有溝通？部長有跟市政府交通局做過溝通嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：那天我們在江副院長那邊有說過了……"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，現在……"],["陳部長世凱：交通部會進入來協助，我目前也已經責成運研所、高公局跟公路局，各單位大家一起參與，跟他們一起來討論，做一個專案的處理。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在高鐵特區光是上下班時間，車輛回堵到高架橋上是每天都發生的啦！未來（115年）商城完工之後，交通會非常困難，所以你們現在一定要儘早、提早來啟動。","另外我要再提醒，有關王田國道1號烏日匝道的增設部分，我相信高公局有提出增設匝道的困難，但是我希望交通部能夠以你們的專業來瞭解和積極協調，如果能夠增設烏日匝道，利用烏日區現有道路的路廊去做有效的規劃，將能有效排解現在74號以及國道1號、國道3號的整個車流。","再來就是因為烏日地區這10年來移入人口超過1萬人，尤其都是集中在高鐵特區，當地原本的交通負擔就很大，加上這個鐵道局的促參案，未來會更吃緊，所以中央千萬不要袖手旁觀，中央能做的一定要先啟動，這一點部長能不能做到？"],["陳部長世凱：這一點我們已經要組專案小組了，所以這個部分委員不用擔心，江副院長有出面協調，這個部分我們交通部會來協助。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。再來是剛剛提到的鐵道建設的議題。所有的捷運，不管是北捷、高捷，都經歷過這樣的陣痛期，都是以點、線、面來形成捷運路網，因為一開始的路線不完整、轉乘困難，導致民眾搭乘意願不足，現在臺中除了綠線已經通車，藍線可行性評估核定，目前正在進行機場捷運（橘線），還有捷運藍線延伸到太平、捷運紫線（屯區環狀線），還有捷運綠線延伸到大坑及彰化的部分。我今天要說的是捷運橘線的部分，因為它串連屯區、霧峰、臺中火車站，最後來到臺中國際機場，我想了解一下目前的進度，依照我現在所知道的，113年7月2日的時候，交通部召開捷運的審查會，原則上同意，請臺中市政府依審查意見修正，目前臺中市政府正在修正當中，我們跟市政府交通局還有鐵道局在沙鹿會勘，主要是希望能夠透過爭取橘線的延伸段，由臺中機場延伸到沙鹿，與臺灣大道的藍線做銜接，如同剛剛本席前面講到的，捷運要達到路網的程度，才能提升旅客的乘車意願，看起來未來最長、乘車人次最多的路線應該就是藍線，原先規劃的捷運橘線，只有在臺中火車站跟藍線有交會，所以希望能夠在海線也可以有交會處，這樣可以擴大整個捷運的路網，以支線的方式讓捷運橘線跟藍線有更完善的轉乘機制，能夠串聯臺中港及臺中國際機場，就能夠更完整的打造捷運路網來發揮運輸的最大效益。另外捷運橘線的部分，應當地的要求，往北的部分，也希望能夠延伸到清水。清水人口近年來也急速的成長，目前人口已經突破9萬，這兩段的延伸線，院長、部長可不可以支持？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，橘線正在臺中市政府的可研當中，所以延伸的部分其實可以放得進去，如果可行性研究的部分有需要經費，交通部也都支持。"],["顏委員寬恒：對。所以我們在15號的時候，副院長這邊召集了協商會議，院長、部長你們作成決議，把延伸的部分也一併提出，納入這一次會議的修正。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。院長、部長如果支持，我希望這不是口頭上，最主要就是行動，行動的支持最重要，臺中市已經成為第二大城市，也是我們國人南來北往必經之地都要經過臺中，未來臺中的發展，對臺灣的幫助也最大。臺中市每一年創稅給中央接近2,000億，但是中央不管透過統籌分配，或者是其他的一般補助回到臺中的都不足，大概在800億左右，所以我們希望在任何的分配或補助，尤其是交通建設，不要大小眼，我們看臺中也好、高雄也好、臺南也好，不要都把臺中看成最「衰尾」的，臺中的比例永遠是最少。所以這部分我希望既然部長榮任了交通部的部長，過去你的選區在我們「大烏龍」，希望你能夠重視我們臺中市的發展。","好，院長、部長，平常有在搭乘大眾捷運系統嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在比較少，之前常常……"],["顏委員寬恒：現在比較少啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：之前常常搭。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，我記得世界無車日好像都有搭乘，世界無車日去坐火車回家。"],["陳部長世凱：我有啊！我是常在搭。"],["顏委員寬恒：我想高鐵跟臺鐵是我們最常使用的交通工具，近期傳出票價要調漲的消息，有沒有明確的方案，有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：針對臺鐵，我是有承諾在過年之前不會調漲。"],["顏委員寬恒：不會調漲？所以臺鐵不會漲，這是確定的？"],["陳部長世凱：過年之前、春節之前不會。"],["顏委員寬恒：這是確定的？好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員。","卓院長還有陳部長，剛剛顏委員質詢這些問題都對大臺中未來的發展至關重要，所以請務必專案來處理，超前部署，可以的話，應該實地來了解一下，不要最後變五路打結，我們希望是五路財神，中央地方合作一起來解這個交通的結。","好，下一位我們請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agen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我知道那謝謝院長願意正面的來協助我們的受災戶解決可能他們遇到的問題好不好先謝謝我們的院長"},{"start":204.144,"end":230.459,"text":"好接下來我就討論一下地方的交通建設下一張我們的這個捷運汐止民生線嘛那其實在今天新北市政府已經完成評選了啦那後續會公道決標的結果那大家預期應該是會順利啦但是當初為什麼會有一個汐止民生線跑出來可能你們都知道原因就是因為原本整條線是到大稻埕汐止區公所到台北市的大稻埕啊時任的台北市政府"},{"start":230.959,"end":257.066,"text":"那時候沒有意願做所以新北市先來做局部的路段但是一條捷運我們大家應該都知道一條捷運一定是完整的路段它的效益才高嘛就像我們台北市因為路網密集所以很高台中、高雄還在發展階段所以搭乘率比較低一點那站數越少搭乘的誘因就越低那整條路線越長轉成的站點越多那這條線的效益就更大嘛所以當初的整條線的規劃是汐止區公所到這個"},{"start":259.386,"end":279.796,"text":"臺北市的大稻埕,目前感謝我們行政院的協助, 汐止到東湖核定了,地方政府在做了。現在臺北市的東湖大稻埕段, 正由我們的新北市政府在做綜合關號的報告。當然送報告到交通部,我們交通部一定會有審核的機制, 那也提出了一些意見,這些意見可能就是一些"},{"start":281.357,"end":301.025,"text":"一些細項我覺得我們也沒有必要在這邊討論那麼多那只是說我們的院長可不可以在這邊就做一些宣誓性的一些發言宣誓性的一些你們未來我們行政院會怎麼樣子來交通來這個交代交通部關於我們汐止民生線東湖段到大澳城的段希望我們交通部怎麼樣子來協助"},{"start":302.592,"end":328.822,"text":"我所知道部分現在這條線就它的興建營運跟主管機關都還在討論當中所以交通部應該要掌握這樣的討論的重點這樣跟新北或是台北市政府去做更多的討論那這個牽涉到這個從汐止到台北這個整個市區裡面的一條動線很重要那麼是請部長來說明一下未來怎麼樣進行這樣的討論跟進行"},{"start":330.362,"end":331.762,"text":"一條路線只做一半"},{"start":348.087,"end":360.325,"text":"三分之一他的效率一定是差的既然這三分之一已經合定了那剩下的三分之二我們盡量不要讓他的進度落後太多盡量讓整條線的效益都能夠彰顯出來我相信院長跟部長應該都同意這樣的觀點吧"},{"start":362,"end":383.071,"text":"是嘛好不好那就後續就繼續拜託那接下來我想請問一下院長你應該有開過車嘛你有駕照嘛對不對有嘛對不對那其實我們開車就是道教條例都有規定嘛要打方向燈嘛好那其實打方向燈好像好像是一個很common sense一個基本開車應該要基本的一個"},{"start":384.751,"end":402.931,"text":"的能力或是說沒有開車的人也知道好像要怎麼打方向燈,但是實際上不是,因為我們台灣的道路並不是都像很多台北市的都市規劃的道路,都是棋盤式的、工整式的。 所以說我前幾天有邀請我們的交通部跟警政署來研討一下,因為有很多一些奇怪的路段,"},{"start":403.672,"end":426.092,"text":"那到底要怎麼打方向燈,要不要打?那以這個路口來講,其實我這些路段都是當初清北市政府警察局政府清北市政府警察局提供的一些路段,那大家一起來討論一下疑義啦那這個就是Google的路況圖,那左下角當然就是每一張的左下角就是它的俯視圖啦那我想請問一下院長,如果說你開車到這邊來了"},{"start":427.213,"end":439.919,"text":"那你要往,這條就是原通路啦,那你要往左切就是貨車的方向去切,看起來左岸地方,您會不會打左轉燈?如果是右邊那張圖往左邊走,是不是?"},{"start":439.919,"end":449.184,"text":"這是我們的方向,嘿。 是啦,應該是往左邊走。 往左邊走,要不要打方向燈?那如果這條是幹道,他應該算直行吧?"},{"start":449.184,"end":453.666,"text":"欸,院長還算有一點概念,對,他不用打方向燈。好,那下一張。"},{"start":456.94,"end":472.087,"text":"那第二齁這條路就很好笑了啦當然這也是地方政府的問題啦齁一條路開到這邊來往前走是叫連勝街往左走也叫連勝街那您看一下右邊這邊如果說你要順著路往左邊走的話要不要打方向燈右邊這張圖嗎對右邊這張圖往右邊這張圖像這個機車這樣子走往左走嗎對"},{"start":481.304,"end":491.713,"text":"應該也是同樣道理吧,還是他,因為這樣看不出哪一條是主要的道路。對,其實左邊應該是幹道。有畫線的應該是主要道路吧。對,好,那所以說院長的答案應該是"},{"start":494.189,"end":514.732,"text":"要不要打?如果是往左邊走,他有畫中間一條線是不是?不曉得。如果是沿著這樣線,沿著線走應該是不用打方向燈?對,我也認為應該不用,但是這個路口真的很特殊,它前面一定要連線接,所以這可能牽扯到地方主管機關到底怎麼認定誰是,哪一條是主要幹道的續行,那這個部分其實也都是駕駛沒有"},{"start":515.152,"end":515.352,"text":"應該是一樣的標準吧?"},{"start":515.352,"end":516.012,"text":"一樣的標準,所以縣長答案應該是不用打。"},{"start":544.923,"end":570.05,"text":"如果是往左邊這樣走,它地上是有一個,中間是一個分割線的。是,好,下一張。那這個路口,這個路口一樣,路口有右轉標示跟左轉標示,那如果說我們順著右邊的路,摩托車這條路走?兩邊都有摩托車,是哪一個?右邊右邊,走右邊這條?可能要按那個三角形的兩邊都讓它亮吧?"},{"start":571.345,"end":593.57,"text":"走右邊的當然右邊是幹道啦我跟院長說右邊是幹道啦對阿右邊是幹道啦那如果說往右轉的話其實部長也是會這麼問應該是跟剛剛的答案相反應該是不用啦但其實連部長都有疑問的就代表我們其實大眾要不要打方向燈這件事情齁"},{"start":595.026,"end":595.126,"text":"主席"},{"start":611.889,"end":612.53,"text":"車輛1該條道路現行轉彎行駛時"},{"start":628.551,"end":646.682,"text":"非屬車輛不依該道路原方向行駛的轉向行為那駕駛人不需要顯示方向燈所以院長剛剛講的很多的答案應該都是幾乎都是對的這個依道路行駛那它不包括穿越入口如果說包括穿越入口"},{"start":647.082,"end":676.224,"text":"那包括地上有沒有左彎線或右彎線因為剛剛有一張圖是我們有右彎的標示跟左彎的標示嘛我們往右走那院長也認為不用打方向燈但是實務上我們的基層或者是我們的交通單位在對於道路的標線跟要不要打方向燈這件事情的時候其實是沒有掛鉤的因為沒有掛鉤所以說院長知道剛剛那條路往右邊走的時候你可以跳到那一張往右邊走的時候你知道是不用打方向燈的"},{"start":677.91,"end":701.852,"text":"就這一張因為你看左邊這邊他其實是有右轉箭頭的那原則上其實他是不用打方向燈因為他是照著道路線行走那所以說其實我那個現在的這個運輸研究所交通部運輸運營所也有發現打方向燈這件事情因為最近的檢舉案件真的很多那警察同仁他每一個因為每一個員警同仁他對於"},{"start":703.134,"end":724.552,"text":"他對於路口要不要打方向燈這件事情他自己本身的法治的觀念可能都不一定有院長那麼好他可能覺得有右轉箭頭我就要打右轉燈我龍頭右轉我的方向盤右轉我就要打方向燈那其實是錯誤的觀念那我也希望說這件事情因為這每天都在發生很多民眾都啞巴吃黃蓮說到的就算了嘛那有時候申訴也是"},{"start":727.17,"end":728.432,"text":"警察維持原判採決所"},{"start":739.403,"end":760.482,"text":"研討會結束之後,我請我們的交通部儘速的提供一些解釋函,最好是有一些入口的一些範例給地方所有的警政單位去參考,讓他們希望在執法上面有一致的標準。那後續可能我們交通部對於用路人,因為打方向燈最重要的是大家有一致的概念,才不會誤會前車打方向燈是什麼意思。"},{"start":760.782,"end":761.443,"text":"好那另外喔這個"},{"start":784.076,"end":804.151,"text":"下一個議題我問一下院長你應該有在操場跑過步對不對?是那你應該知道操場的一些規則跑步的規則跑步的人會在哪些跑道?會在跑步的人會在哪些跑道跑步?哪些跑道?對沿著操場的跑道?對他有1234567個跑道嗎?"},{"start":807.554,"end":825.066,"text":"跑步的人會在內側跑道啦,越快的人會在,最快的人會在最內側跑道,然後次快的人在內二,然後內三,那原則上外面的5678就是給一般的散步民眾使用,這是一般的運動場的規定,也不是規定啦,就是大家的一個高度共識,為什麼會這樣子規定?"},{"start":827.247,"end":833.031,"text":"對,速度這件事情一樣才不會發生碰撞,這是非常重要的。 我也認同這樣的觀念,那當然運動場都是這樣。 但是我們的道路上卻有發現,在規範上面,"},{"start":844.69,"end":865.547,"text":"就是說我們在運動場上面這樣規範的時候,我們不會去管他是大人、小孩、老年人,或者是我是瘦的人、我是胖的人,我有不同的跑道的規範嘛,對不對?我們就是單純用速度來規範我們要跑哪個跑道,但是我們的道路卻不是這樣子的規範,我們的道路很明確的就分汽車跟機車,但是我們的市區的道路,"},{"start":866.408,"end":879.272,"text":"的限速一般來說大概就是5050這個速度是所有機車幾乎都可以輕易達到的一個速度但是我們卻限制所有的機車他可能只能在最外側跟外二的跑道這是我們的交通規範裡面所訂定的99條那邊嘛"},{"start":882.153,"end":907.746,"text":"那所以說很多路權的機車路權團體都在提這件事情啊我們要提倡交通安全的時候我們是應該是用速度分流用方向來分流左轉彎的車靠左邊右轉彎的車靠右直行車車靠中間那如果說都是直行車的話呢你快車的時候要靠哪邊應該是速度跟方向的分流而不是用車種的分流我不知道因為部長您算是交通的素人好不好"},{"start":908.286,"end":911.91,"text":"我昨天有跟路權團體碰面過,這個議題我們有討論過,所以這個部分沒有問題,我們也會輔導地方政府在進行機車的車道盡量減少。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":64,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（14時47分）好，謝謝主席，一樣麻煩幫我們邀請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：院長好，放心啦！今天不吵架。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有吵架。"],["廖委員先翔：為了表現我的誠意，我先感謝我們的賴清德總統，因為在金山、萬里發生大雨致災的時候，他有到金山、萬里去看他的一些鄉親，也是我們的國民。總統有到市場裡面去看，金山市場淹水淹得非常嚴重，對不對？總統也有提出一些方案，就是依現行制度，受災的商家如果去購買一些節能電器等營業設備，有最高50%的補助，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：最高50%，上限到50萬。"],["廖委員先翔：是，跟院長報告，總統講這句話應該是對全部的攤商講，對不對？他希望這個方案讓所有的攤商都能夠適用，總統想幫助所有的人，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這個計畫原來是對於節能的設備更換。"],["廖委員先翔：對，這當然是前提。"],["卓院長榮泰：總統關心國人因為風災、雨災……"],["廖委員先翔：但是我跟院長報告，總統給大家的承諾現在很難落地，因為有一個狀況，就是經濟部當然會要求來申請的攤商必須要有營業登記、商業登記等等。我必須跟院長報告，在金山公有市場的這些攤商都是跟市政府租的，他們都有租約的一些相關證明，也都有繳租金，總共有138家攤商，但是只有28家攤商符合資格，他們有營業登記或商業登記，剩下的110家攤商，他們有營業的事實，有繳租金給市政府，也確實都有受災，但是他們現在都不符合經濟部的規範。經濟部當然也想協助他們，經濟部現在提出的方案是定額補助，你買一個冰箱，看是要補助3,000還是6,000，或是你買一個什麼器材，補助也是定額，當然這個金額的落差就會相當的大。在這邊可能要拜託院長，是不是能夠針對這些實際受災而有在營業的商家，他們可能當初沒有去申請辦理登記，可不可以對這些商家給予協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解委員提出這樣的看法，而且也相當有它的道理，在一定的區域裡面，固定的商家……"],["廖委員先翔：是，它有營業的事實。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，有營業的事實，若相鄰隔壁，我有，你沒有，可能會造成大家心理上的……如果是這樣的話，我會請經濟部就現在本來節能減碳的這個方式，原來是對有營業登記證的一些公司、商……"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是不是可以在法律的解釋上面，如果是固定的區域，在一定的時間，他提出證明，我想能不能用在法律可以解釋通的狀況底下，我們來做一個專案的討論？"],["廖委員先翔：好，我知道了，謝謝院長願意正面協助我們的受災戶，解決他們可能遇到的問題，先謝謝我們的院長。","接下來我就要討論一下地方的交通建設。關於我們的捷運汐止民生線，其實今天新北市政府已經完成評選了，後續會公告決標的結果，大家預期應該是會順利，但是當初為什麼會有一個汐止民生線跑出來？可能你們都知道原因，就是因為原本整條線是汐止區公所到臺北市的大稻埕，時任的臺北市政府那時候沒有意願做，所以新北市先來做局部的路段，但是我們大家應該都知道，一條捷運一定是完整的路段，它的效益才高，就像我們臺北市因為路網密集所以效益很高，臺中、高雄還在發展階段，所以搭乘率比較低一點，那站數越少，搭乘的誘因就越低，整條路線越長，轉乘的站點越多，這條線的效益就更大，所以當初整條線的規劃是汐止區公所到臺北市的大稻埕。目前感謝行政院的協助，汐止到東湖核定了，地方政府在做了，現在臺北市的東湖段到大稻埕段，正由我們的新北市政府在做綜合規劃的報告，當然送報告到交通部，我們交通部一定會有審核的機制，也提出了一些意見，這些意見可能就是一些細項，我覺得我們也沒有必要在這邊討論那麼多，只是說我們的院長可不可以在這邊做一些宣示性的發言，未來行政院會怎麼樣來交代交通部，關於汐止民生線東湖段到大稻埕段，希望交通部怎麼樣來協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：我所知道的部分，現在這條線就它的興建、營運跟主管機關都還在討論當中，所以交通部應該要掌握這樣的討論重點，儘量跟新北或是臺北市政府去做更多的討論，這牽涉到從汐止到臺北整個市區裡面的一條動線，很重要，那麼請部長來說明一下未來怎麼樣進行這樣的討論跟進行。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，部長，請。"],["陳部長世凱：目前就是像委員剛剛所說的，目前新北市正在進行綜合規劃當中，這個部分當然交通部有一些建議，目前它也正在修正，我們就看修正的狀況怎麼樣送過來，我們來加速辦理。"],["廖委員先翔：積極協助，大家應該都有共識，一條路線只做一半、三分之一，它的效率一定是差的。"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望它能夠……"],["廖委員先翔：既然這三分之一已經核定了，那剩下的三分之二，我們儘量不要讓它的進度落後太多，儘量讓整條線的效益都能夠彰顯出來，我相信院長跟部長應該都同意這樣的觀點吧。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那後續就繼續拜託。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：接下來我想請問一下院長，你應該有開過車嘛，你有駕照嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["廖委員先翔：有嘛，對不對？其實我們開車，道交條例都有規定要打方向燈，其實打方向燈好像是一個common sense、一個開車應該要具備的基本能力，或是說沒有開車的人好像也知道要怎麼打方向燈，但是實際上不是，因為我們臺灣的道路並不是都像很多臺北市的都市計畫規劃的道路，都是棋盤式的、工整式的，所以前幾天我有邀請交通部跟警政署來研討一下，因為有很多奇怪的路段，到底要怎麼打方向燈？要不要打？以這個路口來講，其實這些路段都是當初新北市政府警察局提供的一些路段，大家一起來討論一下疑義。這個就是Google的路況圖，每一張的左下角就是它的俯視圖。我想請問一下院長，如果說你開車到這邊來了，這條是圓通路，那你要往左切，就是貨車的那個方向去切，看起來左彎的地方，您會不會打左轉燈？"],["卓院長榮泰：是右邊那張圖往左邊走，是不是？"],["廖委員先翔：這是我們的方向。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啦，應該是往左邊走。"],["廖委員先翔：對，往左邊走，要不要打方向燈？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這一條是幹道，他應該算直行吧！"],["廖委員先翔：院長還算有一點概念。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員先翔：對，他不用打方向燈。","再看到下一張案例2，這條路就很好笑了，當然這也是地方政府的問題啦！一條路開到這邊來，往前走叫連勝街，往左走也叫連勝街，您看一下右邊這邊，如果你要順著路往左邊走的話，要不要打方向燈？"],["卓院長榮泰：右邊這張圖啊？"],["廖委員先翔：對，右邊這張圖。"],["卓院長榮泰：往右邊這個方向嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：像這個機車這樣子走。"],["陳部長世凱：往左走嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該也是同樣道理吧！因為這樣看不出哪一條是主要的道路。"],["廖委員先翔：對，其實左邊應該是幹道。"],["卓院長榮泰：有畫線的應該是主要道路吧！"],["廖委員先翔：對，所以院長的答案應該是？要不要打？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是往左邊走，它中間有畫一條線，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沿著這個線。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是沿著線走應該是不用打方向燈。"],["廖委員先翔：對，我也認為應該不用，但是這個路口真的很特殊，它前面也叫連勝街，所以這可能牽扯到地方主管機關到底怎麼認定哪一條是主要幹道的續行。這個部分如果有些問題，警察單位都要來問交通局的話，我們的駕駛在很多路口第一時間怎麼去判斷哪一方面的路是他續行的路段？這是他們駕駛常會遇到的一些問題。","再看下一張，一樣，我們沿著紅色這台車的方向走呢？"],["陳部長世凱：一樣是往左嘛？"],["廖委員先翔：左邊，對。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是一樣的標準吧！"],["廖委員先翔：一樣的標準，所以院長的答案應該是不用打？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是往左邊這樣走，地上中間是一個分隔線的。"],["廖委員先翔：是。下一張這個路口有右轉標示跟左轉標示，如果我們順著右邊的摩托車這條路走呢？"],["陳部長世凱：兩邊都有摩托車。"],["廖委員先翔：右邊，走右邊這條。"],["卓院長榮泰：可能要按那個三角形的，兩邊都讓它亮吧！"],["廖委員先翔：走右邊的。當然右邊是幹道，我跟院長說，右邊是幹道。"],["卓院長榮泰：看不出來。"],["陳部長世凱：如果是幹道……"],["廖委員先翔：對，右邊是幹道，如果往右轉的話？其實部長也是有疑問。"],["卓院長榮泰：會這麼問，應該是跟剛剛的答案相同。"],["廖委員先翔：應該是不用啦！但其實連部長都有疑問了……"],["陳部長世凱：如果一樣是幹道……"],["廖委員先翔：這代表大眾對於要不要打方向燈這件事情，在現行的法規，其實大家沒有一致的高度共識啦！交通部是有解釋函，等一下再給您看一下，可能包括民眾或者警察單位，其實大家有不同的見解啦！","我們直接跳到解釋函那一張，其實很簡單的一個判斷，就像剛剛院長講的，我不知道有沒有人給你pass，但是如果你講出那句話，我真的對你還滿佩服的，如果說你是自己講出來的話。車輛依該條道路線型轉彎行駛時，非屬車輛不依該道路原方向行駛之轉向行為，駕駛人不需要顯示方向燈。所以院長剛剛講的很多答案幾乎都是對的，依道路行駛包括穿越路口、包括地上有沒有左彎線或右彎線，因為剛剛有一張圖是有右彎的標示跟左彎的標示，我們往右走，院長也認為不用打方向燈。但是實務上，我們的基層或者是交通單位在對於道路的標線跟要不要打方向燈這件事情的時候，其實是沒有掛勾的，因為沒有掛勾，所以院長知道剛剛那條路往右邊走的時候是不用打方向燈的。你看這一張的左邊這邊，它其實是有右轉箭頭的，原則上他是不用打方向燈，因為他是照著道路線型走。","現在交通部運輸研究所也有發現打方向燈這一件事情，最近的檢舉案件真的很多，因為每一個員警同仁對於路口要不要打方向燈這一件事情，他自己本身的法治觀念可能都不一定有院長那麼好，他可能覺得有右轉箭頭就要打右轉燈，我的龍頭有轉、我的方向盤有轉，我就要打方向燈，但其實這是錯誤的觀念。因為這件事情每天都在發生，很多民眾都啞巴吃黃連，收到罰單就算了，有時候申訴也是警察維持原判，裁決所原則會尊重舉發單位。因為每天都有很多這樣子的事情，研討會結束之後，請交通部儘速提供一些解釋函，最好是有一些入口範例，給地方所有的警政單位去參考，讓他們在執法上面有一致的標準，後續可能交通部對於用路人……因為打方向燈最重要的是大家有一致的概念，才不會誤會前車打方向燈是什麼意思，最重要的就是提示後車，所以當大家有一致的觀念，並且有一致的執法標準時，我們打方向燈才是安全的，也才不會出現許多的烏龍罰單。部長，後續就麻煩你，包括運研所後續要提出一些方針、指引，也請儘快的提出來。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。","下一個議題我問一下院長，你應該有在操場跑過步，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那你應該知道操場的一些跑步的規則，跑步的人會在哪些跑道跑步？"],["卓院長榮泰：沿著操場的跑道。"],["廖委員先翔：它有一、二、三、四、五、六、七個跑道嘛，跑步的人會在內側跑道，最快的人會在最內側的跑道，次快的在內二，然後內三，原則上外面的五、六、七就是給一般散步的民眾使用，這是一般運動場的規定，也不是規定，就是大家的一個高度共識，為什麼會這樣子規定？"],["卓院長榮泰：不僅讓大家行進的方向一樣，在速度上的調配也比較順暢。"],["廖委員先翔：對，速度這件事情一樣才不會發生碰撞，這是非常重要的，我也認同這樣的觀念，當然運動場都是這樣，我們在運動場上面這樣規範，不會管他是大人、小孩、老年人或者瘦的人、胖的人，應該有不同的跑道，只是單純用速度來規範我們要跑哪個跑道。但是我們的道路卻不是這樣規範的，我們的道路很明確的區分汽車跟機車，市區道路的限速一般來說大概就是時速50公里，時速50公里這個速度是所有機車幾乎都可以輕易達到的，但是我們卻限制所有機車只能在最外側跟外二的跑道，這是我們的交通規範第九十九條所訂定的，所以很多機車路權團體都在提這件事情。我們在提倡交通安全的時候，應該用速度分流和方向來分流，左轉彎的車靠左邊，右轉彎的車靠右，直行的車靠中間，如果都是直行車的話，快車要靠哪邊，應該是速度跟方向的分流，而不是用車種分流。我不知道，因為部長您算是交通的素人，我不曉得你對這件事情有什麼看法。"],["陳部長世凱：我昨天有跟路權團體碰面座談，對於這個議題我們有討論過，所以這部分沒有問題，我們也會輔導地方政府儘量減少禁行機車的車道，讓機車跟汽車可以……"],["廖委員先翔：好，最主要是從規定去改，不然地方沒有調整的空間。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：再麻煩部長、院長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是新北市林口高中的同學，我們在此歡迎他們來立法院參訪。","下一位我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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其實人都已經快嚇死了那我們怎麼樣振興花蓮的光光呢 因為大家都不敢來了啊其實在面對地震的時候 應該要教育民眾要怎麼樣的臨危不亂反而這個是比較重要的 結果現在大小地震都放大報導搞到最後都變成唯恐天下不亂 而且現在你看打開電視台"},{"start":243.809,"end":263.985,"text":"都一直播花蓮地震的速報為什麼每次一個地震開始的時候各家新聞台的跑馬燈就一直在出現一直在出現一直跑跑到人民的心都慌了跑到大家都真的都不敢到花蓮來旅遊了那院長你知道我們花蓮人心裡其實真的是苦到苦到說不出口了嗎"},{"start":266.927,"end":288.502,"text":"地震的預報或是這個報導應該不會侷限是花蓮地區啦況且我們的地震中心或是我們的氣象署他都有法定的職權跟義務必須在一定的程度必須讓全民知道這樣的資訊所以我是希望說讓大家知道這個權利要維護但知道的時候要告訴大家知而不亂"},{"start":289.767,"end":294.41,"text":"但是你知道前幾天才發生,前幾天發生的時候,二級、一級也是在登啊,我們花蓮其實對這種地震,其實覺得二級、一級根本沒有什麼,但是電視的跑馬燈就一直登啊,那誰敢來花蓮啊,每次的鎮壓都是在花蓮。"},{"start":306.977,"end":333.728,"text":"而且我是想要拜託拜託院長還有NCC可不可以開始請各家新聞台都要自律呢而且你們這地震的警報也要分等級啊你現在二級也在登然後每天都是看到花蓮地震這誰敢來啊我們現在每一個人都是對花蓮沒有信心欸他們都不敢來欸因為他每次都覺得鎮壓一定會是在花蓮然後一看其實只有二級還有三級"},{"start":335.199,"end":351.588,"text":"前幾天就發生了啊但是那個新聞台就是跑馬燈一直在跑啊所以我覺得這樣不只自己嚇自己而且是嚇死全國的民眾而且造成全國的民眾的恐慌尤其是大家真的對花蓮都沒有信心了"},{"start":352.368,"end":370.194,"text":"當然啦,剛才院長有說,所以其實我也感謝各個新聞台對花蓮的地區的關心,但是這個東西是已經太過關心了,反而產生一個無形的壓力,也讓我們全國的民眾無形中產生了一個叫做花蓮隨時都在地震的標籤化。"},{"start":372.936,"end":401.455,"text":"這個標籤話會讓大家都不敢來所以我們將心比心嘛行政院或NCC是否可以建議媒體開始減少全國民眾對花蓮地區的恐懼如果是這樣像院長每個月都到花蓮你也是希望說我們的災後重建還有振興要有一個上升一個非常大的幫助所以我覺得這個或許真的是你們要研議一下是不是要怎麼樣讓大家對花蓮有信心"},{"start":402.915,"end":430.085,"text":"請委員理解行政院應該是沒有辦法要求媒體掃報哪一些內容那NCC可以去處理啊我一直要求氣象署在針對各項的預警預告的過程當中要更精確更精準這個是我們花蓮鄉親的問題每一個人都跟我反應每一個群組都說這是要嚇死人嗎我們花蓮現在經濟那麼差了"},{"start":431.085,"end":458.963,"text":"氣象署他是不是有一定的公告預告的一個標準到達什麼標準他必須要向全民來揭露這樣我記得04、03在那之前的時候其實沒有像現在這個樣子其實氣象署齁他們只要有地震那必然就會做一個報告啦氣象署的動作一定是這個樣子所以我剛才已經講了嘛要分等級嘛對不對你們連二級一級你們也在也在也在這樣報氣象署的責任是只要有地震就要告訴民眾有地震"},{"start":459.343,"end":463.425,"text":"所以我現在也是代表我花蓮的鄉親來這邊講這些反映這些事情因為真的現在經濟都很差好我再來講第二個問題就是院長跟部長你們知道有關花蓮鐵路高價化的交通的問題嗎?"},{"start":489.217,"end":508.853,"text":"臺灣的東部的鐵路在花蓮市和吉安鄉市區就有7個平面的平交道穿越花蓮市和吉安鄉的鬧區所以這個已經引發民怨的不斷的民怨所以現在臺鐵花蓮站和吉安甘城站的高架工程其實這個蓋我想應該比蘇花安還簡單吧一定不會比蘇花安還難但是究竟何時可以規劃動工啊還是根本就是不想做啊"},{"start":517.279,"end":541.756,"text":"因為據我了解今年9月的27號鐵道局的計劃書已經送到交通部的本部了但是為什麼又石沉大海呢?音訊全無呢?那請問目前計劃書究竟是已經送到交通部了嗎?還是進度如何呢?那院長跟部長你現在是不是可以承諾本席馬上加速審核呢?因為據我了解"},{"start":543.498,"end":557.333,"text":"這個計畫書在政府機關其實來來回回已經修過好多次然後民眾都在等待多年的鐵路的高架化而且在去年112年的4月獲得前交通部長正面的回應了"},{"start":557.873,"end":577.021,"text":"同意將花東地區的鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫的工程納入花蓮站至甘城站有7個鐵路平交道的高架立體化辦理,而且並且他也答應了要全額的負擔,改善花蓮市7個鐵路平交道的立體化工程及吉安車站的"},{"start":577.961,"end":580.362,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":599.532,"end":625.938,"text":"難道莫非新上任的陳部長你沒有想要黃牛了嗎?你不想兌現前任的支票了嗎?是不是又要欺騙我們花蓮人了?報告委員這個案子現在正在進行的是花東的鐵軌的軌道的這個雙軌電氣化這個部分一直在進行當中這個沒有什麼黃牛不黃牛的問題那您所提到的高價化的部分目前也正在審議當中目前國發會正在審議"},{"start":628.396,"end":631.558,"text":"那什麼時候可以好呢?國發會在審議,這個我沒辦法替他們回答。那你可能要幫我們追蹤一下吧?"},{"start":638.966,"end":662.501,"text":"我想院長其實那麼多個月都到花蓮其實非常充分了解花蓮還有東部的民眾雖然是一個小小的臺灣但是東西的交通是非常的不同的大部分的交通都是以西部為主我上一次質詢的時候也有說也有比較圖出來相對西部的時候我們花蓮的交通資源真的是嚴重的不足"},{"start":663.061,"end":678.616,"text":"所以這是我們花蓮民眾大家最痛也是最擔憂的尤其是花蓮在這幾次0403的大地震還有凱米風災還有山陀爾颱風之後那我們花蓮對外的交通中斷真的是變成孤城了啦所以我們現在看一下像東西的已經"},{"start":680.157,"end":680.938,"text":"災前、災時、災後的情況的比較。"},{"start":699.89,"end":717.565,"text":"所以災後的時候也會有管制然後還是不方便那我們是不是看這樣之後我們是不是要快一點要找一條有一條安全替代道路像舒花庵這樣是不是要快一點把它建造完成還是按照其程要如期完工呢?"},{"start":718.286,"end":743.105,"text":"沒有錯 報告委員 蘇哈安是我們按照期程也一步一步在推動我想這個蘇哈安如果完成之後對交通的改善我們是有所期待的只是我跟您一樣非常的遺憾每次重大工程進行到大家正在如火如荼的時候就來一場大雨來一個颱風讓我們很多要從復原復舊又開始這是我們共同遇到的大自然給我們的挑戰"},{"start":743.505,"end":758.104,"text":"我再請院長再看一下像我們東部的交通的便利性沒有一項勝過西部的現在以前本來上一次來比較的時候說什麼雙腳還可以翻山越嶺現在幾乎土石流之後連那種走的都沒有辦法過去"},{"start":759.465,"end":783.493,"text":"所以像執政者的交通建設,這對執政者的交通建設是不是一個諷刺呢?這對我們身為同樣是中華民國的國民情何以堪?尤其是在鐵路方面,東部沒有捷運也沒有高鐵,搭火車一票籃球,遇到風災整個都封閉。那院長請問一下花東鄉情除了公路、鐵路,還是不是還可以選擇飛機?"},{"start":784.853,"end":785.554,"text":"會員所說的是道路中斷的時候嗎?"},{"start":815.316,"end":827.788,"text":"遇到風災又是道路中斷的時候可能比較困難原因是這個樣子如果風災又道路中斷我原本的航空也不能飛船當然也不行因為有風災的時候颱風正在跑"},{"start":829.77,"end":857.494,"text":"然後一結束之後呢?因為萬一正好家裡有急事馬上要趕回去的時候呢?報告委員在上一次9月8號有一次也剛好因為遇到大雨所以道路中斷包含公路包含鐵路遇到土石流我們那個時候啟動了三個小時就啟動了一個輸運方案飛機馬上加班那另外就是往南回的鐵路我們馬上加班不但是南回運到輸運大家到高雄我們連高鐵的部分也都接得上"},{"start":857.95,"end":879.428,"text":"我們高鐵也加開班次,讓那個民眾可以從南部到北部去,所以3個小時的SOP我們在交通部已經建立了。所以你們已經做好SOP了就對了,是不是?沒有錯,這個部分我已經建立了。OK,但是我有看過你們的SOP,目前是有但是不完整,所以我是想說如何解決花蓮交通不便還有臨時發生交通中斷的時候,你那個吊派飛機,"},{"start":880.469,"end":880.489,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":905.353,"end":925.824,"text":"報告委員您所說的A跟B計畫目前交通部正在努力當中就是航空跟海運的部分藍色公路的部分我也努力想要把它建立起來不過還在努力的過程但您所指的這個C計畫有關於國防部的派遣的部分大概交通部沒有辦法去指揮國防部的部分所以這個部分我大概不行那A跟B我正在努力"},{"start":926.905,"end":927.546,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝卓院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（14時31分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：你好、你好。還要請交通部陳部長，還有NCC，喔！抱歉、抱歉，那個NCC的綠媒小弟、NCC的違法主委就不用上台了，我們等一下請卓院長回答就好了。","院長，看到本席，你應該知道本席今天想要質詢的重點是什麼了吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：花東或是護理的問題。"],["林委員憶君：沒錯，本席要繼續關心我們花蓮的觀光，還有花蓮交通的問題。院長，首先我還是要先感謝你，自從你上任之後，真的都有遵守承諾，每個月真的都有到花蓮視察，而且……"],["卓院長榮泰：我下禮拜還要去。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝，謝謝關心我們花蓮災後重建。但是本席不知道你有沒有真的看到問題，還是你只是走馬看花，聽聽地方官員給你看似認真的簡報做做樣子呢？因為對我們花蓮人來講，現在最重要的問題是要如何活下去！這個仰賴觀光產業發展的城市，因為天災導致各行各業都已經變成了悽慘的慘業。我想請問院長跟部長，花蓮平常是不是經常發生地震？"],["卓院長榮泰：花蓮是屬於地震頻傳的區域之一，對。"],["林委員憶君：花蓮是不是常常都一直在發生地震呢？你們有這樣的感覺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：餘震的狀況應該是很頻繁。"],["林委員憶君：現在問題就來了，我再請問一下，電視新聞台在花蓮0403地震發生以前，會不會一直播放花蓮地震的跑馬燈呢？你知道我為什麼要……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有地震的發生，當然媒體是不會報導這個訊息的。"],["林委員憶君：好，院長，其實不是這個樣子，你知道我為什麼要這樣問嗎？因為花蓮好多鄉親都跟我反映，尤其在花蓮鄉親的群組裡，大家都說三不五時就收到地震的警報，有時候只是一個完全沒影響到民生和交通的小小地震，各家新聞台卻都一直在報導，最後反而是其他縣市的親友每個人都感覺人心惶惶，甚至比我們花蓮人更害怕、更緊張，然後都跑來關心花蓮人。但老實說，太過頻繁還有非必要的地震快報，真的有那麼必要嗎？因為這只會增加人民到花蓮觀光旅遊的恐懼，還有不信任，這也是本席最近在觀察為什麼大家都不喜歡來花蓮，而且大家也不願意來花蓮的主要原因。現在花蓮的觀光還沒有死，但人都已經快嚇死了，這樣我們怎麼樣振興花蓮的觀光呢？因為大家都不敢來了啊！其實在面對地震的時候，應該是教育民眾要怎麼樣臨危不亂，反而這個是比較重要的，結果現在大小地震都放大報導，搞到最後都變成唯恐天下不亂。現在打開電視台，都一直在播花蓮地震的速報，每次發生一個地震，各家新聞台的跑馬燈就一直出現、一直出現，一直跑，跑到人民的心都慌了，跑到大家都真的不敢來花蓮旅遊了！院長，你知道我們花蓮人心裡其實真的是苦到說不出口了嗎？所以本席是希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，地震的預報或是報導應該不會侷限於花蓮地區啦，況且我們的地震中心或氣象署都有法定職權跟義務，達一定的程度時必須讓全民知道這樣的資訊，所以我是希望讓大家知道的這個權利要維護，但是知道的時候也要告訴大家知而不亂，警告、預警也是好的……"],["林委員憶君：但是你知道前幾天才發生……"],["卓院長榮泰：警告的時候也是叫大家警戒，但是不要……"],["林委員憶君：前幾天發生的時候，2級、1級也是在登啊！我們花蓮其實對這種2級、1級的地震根本沒有什麼，但是電視台的跑馬燈就一直登，這樣誰敢來花蓮啊！每次震央都是在花蓮。我是想要拜託院長還有NCC，可不可以開始請各家新聞台都要自律呢？而且你們的地震警報也要分等級，現在2級也在登，每天都看到花蓮有地震，這樣誰敢來啊！現在每個人都對花蓮沒有信心，他們都不敢來，因為他們覺得每次震央都一定是在花蓮，然後一看其實只有2級、3級，前幾天就發生了，但是新聞台的跑馬燈就一直在跑。我覺得這樣不只是自己嚇自己，而且還嚇死全國民眾，造成全國民眾的恐慌，尤其大家真的對花蓮都沒信心了。","當然，剛才院長有說，所以我也感謝各個新聞台對花蓮地區的關心，但是這個東西是已經太過關心了，反而產生一個無形的壓力，也讓全國民眾在無形中產生了一個叫做花蓮隨時都在地震的標籤化，這個標籤化會讓大家都不敢來，所以我們將心比心，行政院或NCC是否可以建議媒體開始減少全國民眾對花蓮地區的恐懼？像院長每個月都到花蓮，你也希望我們的災後重建及振興要上升，要有非常大的幫助，所以我覺得這個或許你們真的要去研議一下，看要怎麼樣讓大家對花蓮有信心。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員理解，行政院應該是沒有辦法要求媒體少報哪一些內容，但是……"],["林委員憶君：那NCC呢？NCC可以去處理啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那NCC要……"],["林委員憶君：NCC可以去處理啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不過我一直要求氣象署針對各項預警、預告的過程要更精確、更精準，但它……"],["林委員憶君：是啊，因為這個不是我的問題，這是我們花蓮鄉親的問題，每一個人都跟我反映，每個群組都說 這是要嚇死人嗎？現在花蓮的經濟那麼差了！"],["卓院長榮泰：請教一下氣象署是不是有一定的預告標準，到達什麼標準就必須要向全民來揭露這樣的事情？"],["林委員憶君：我記得在0403之前的時候，其實沒有像現在這個樣子。"],["陳部長世凱：其實氣象署只要有地震，就必然會做一個報告，氣象署的動作一定是這樣，基本的SOP就是這樣。"],["林委員憶君：所以我剛剛已經講了要分等級嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：都有啊！"],["林委員憶君：你們連2級、1級也在這樣報！"],["陳部長世凱：氣象署的責任是只要有地震就要告訴民眾有地震，不是說分1級、2級、3級的問題，只要有地震……"],["卓院長榮泰：告訴大家幾級嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：對，民眾會很希望只要有地震都要知道，所以對於氣象署，大家希望它能夠準確，這是第一個，第二個，大家希望它的訊息能夠通透，這個我們一直在努力做，不過委員所提到的……"],["林委員憶君：我現在也是代表我花蓮鄉親來這邊反映這些事情，因為真的現在經濟都很差！","好，我再來講第二個問題。院長、部長，你們知道有關花蓮鐵路高架化的交通問題嗎？臺灣東部鐵路在花蓮市和吉安鄉市區就有7個平面平交道穿越花蓮市跟吉安鄉的鬧區，這個已經引發不斷的民怨，所以現在臺鐵花蓮站和吉安干城站的高架工程，其實蓋這個我想應該比蘇花安還簡單吧？一定不會比蘇花安還難，但是究竟何時可以規劃動工，還是根本就是不想做？因為據我了解，今年9月27號鐵道局的計畫書已經送到交通部本部，但是為什麼又石沉大海、音訊全無呢？請問目前計畫書究竟是已經送到交通部了嗎？還是進度如何呢？","然後院長跟部長，你現在是不是可以承諾本席馬上加速審核呢？因為據我了解，這個計畫書在政府機關其實來來回回已經修過好多次，而民眾等待多年的鐵路高架化，在去年112年的4月已獲得前交通部長正面回應，同意在花東地區的鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫工程裡，納入花蓮站至干城站的七個鐵路平交道高架立體化，他也答應要全額負擔改善花蓮市七個鐵路平交道的立體化工程及吉安車站的高架化經費，但是本席翻閱了114年的預算書，在鐵道局的鐵路及捷運建設計畫中，有編列花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫，它的總經費是456億，114年編列了60億元，所以我現在只想說，莫非新上任的陳部長你們又要黃牛了嗎？你不想兌現前任的支票了嗎？是不是又要欺騙我們花蓮人了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個案子現在正在進行的是花東鐵軌軌道的雙軌電氣化，這個部分一直在進行當中，這個沒有什麼黃牛不黃牛的問題。那您所提到的高架化部分，目前國發會正在審議中。"],["林委員憶君：那什麼時候可以好呢？"],["陳部長世凱：國發會在審議，這個我沒辦法替他們回答。"],["林委員憶君：好，那你可能要幫我們追蹤一下吧？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員憶君：OK，好。院長你那麼多個月都到花蓮，其實非常充分的了解花蓮還有東部的民眾，雖然是一個小小的臺灣，但是東西的交通是非常的不同的，大部分的交通都是以西部為主，我上一次質詢的時候也有說嘛，也有比較圖出來，對不對？相對於西部，我們花蓮的交通資源真的是嚴重的不足，這是我們花蓮民眾大家最痛也是最擔憂的，尤其是花蓮在這幾次，包括0403的大地震，還有凱米風災，還有山陀兒颱風之後，我們花蓮對外的交通中斷，真的是變成孤城了啦。","我們看一下，現在東西的交通已經不平衡了，現在只要風災之後，連臺鐵還有公路全部都斷，而且這個還要小心土石流。我們來看一下災前、災時、災後的情況比較，災後的時候也會管制，然後還是不方便，看到這樣之後，我們是不是要快一點找一條、有一條安全的替代道路，像蘇花安這樣，是不是要快一點把它建造完成，還是按照期程如期完工呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。報告委員，蘇花安我們按照期程也逐步在推動，我想蘇花安完成之後，對交通的改善我們是有所期待的，只是我跟您一樣，非常的遺憾，每次重大工程進行到如火如荼的時候，就來一場大雨、來一個颱風，讓我們很多又要從復原、復舊開始，這是我們共同遇到的大自然給我們的挑戰。"],["林委員憶君：好，那我要請院長再看一下我們東部交通的便利性，沒有一項勝過西部的。上一次來比較的時候，說什麼雙腳還可以翻山越嶺，現在土石流之後，幾乎連用走的都沒有辦法過去，這對執政者的交通建設是不是一個諷刺呢？這對我們同樣是身為中華民國的國民情何以堪？尤其是在鐵路方面。東部沒有捷運，也沒有高鐵，搭火車一票難求，遇到風災整個都封閉。院長，請問一下，花東鄉親除了公路、鐵路，是不是還可以選擇飛機？但是飛機班次非常少，交通一中斷整個都是秒殺，搶不到了；連想要搭海運的藍色公路都非常的blue，為什麼？因為我們還要苦苦哀求離島地區的船公司，是不是可以調借船隻給我們？請問部長，如果你遇到這種情況，你又正好要去花蓮，你會怎麼處理呢？"],["陳部長世凱：委員所說的是道路中斷的時候嗎？"],["林委員憶君：是，就是遇到風災，都中斷的時候。"],["陳部長世凱：好。如果遇到風災又道路中斷的時候，可能比較困難，原因是這個樣子，如果風災又道路中斷，原本的航空也不能飛，船當然也不行，因為有風災的時候，颱風正在跑……"],["林委員憶君：然後一結束之後呢？萬一正好家裡有急事，馬上要趕回去的時候呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在9月8號有一次也剛好因為遇到大雨所以道路中斷，包含公路、包含鐵路，遇到了土石流，我們那個時候3個小時就啟動了一個疏運方案，飛機馬上加班，另外就是往南迴的鐵路馬上加班，不但是南迴疏運大家到高雄，我們連高鐵的部分也都接得上，高鐵也加開班次，讓民眾可以從南部到北部去，所以我們在交通部已經建立了3個小時的SOP。"],["林委員憶君：所以你們已經做好SOP就對了？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，這個部分我已經建立了。"],["林委員憶君：OK，但是我有看過你們的SOP，目前是有，但是不完整，我在想你們是如何解決花蓮交通不便，還有在臨時發生交通中斷的時候，你們是如何調派飛機？那一次是因為金門那邊起大霧，所以沒辦法，當然是可以調過來，還有船隻支援的方向，我們可不可以研議制定花東比照離島的ABC疏運方案，我們把這個常態落實化，在遇到這些情況的時候，我們的ABC方案還有SOP就可以馬上執行。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所說的A跟B計畫，目前交通部正在努力當中，就是航空跟海運的部分，那藍色公路的部分，我也努力想要把它建立起來，不過還在努力的過程中。但是您所指的這個C計畫，就是有關於國防部的派遣部分，大概交通部沒有辦法去指揮國防部，所以這個部分我大概不行，A跟B我正在努力。"],["林委員憶君：好，當然你還是要努力一下，最好是我們花東這一區可以比照離島，然後定出SOP，因為你也知道最近有很多天災真的都是發生在花蓮，像風災、地震。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，一旦發生緊急的狀況，軍方都會適時地做很多的支援工作，這個我們非常感謝，以後這個機制會……"],["林委員憶君：對，上一次有說因為我們都是在等飛機嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00008"}}},{"id":"155756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc0217939d7982a3e937b30eba687ce68b1b0991d782bfec1d1402b8de241148e8b85f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"11:44:24 - 11:59:48","影片長度":"00:15:24","會議時間":"2024-10-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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院長好 部長好 我想昨天在我們東湖發生少年無照駕駛一個非常遺憾的一個事件 我想更要讓我們數字裡面讓我們覺得更驚訝的是根據交通部的統計每年大概有30萬到40萬是有交通事故的 但是有5萬是屬於無照這樣的一個駕駛 而且平均會造成600人死亡 而且還有6萬多人受傷 最重要的是"},{"start":37.139,"end":48.813,"text":"此上的人數竟然是酒駕的6倍!我們再跟酒駕來比,過去我們說酒駕是零容忍,那無照呢?無照呢?無照駕駛又是如何呢?"},{"start":49.389,"end":54.892,"text":"我覺得這個部分在法規條文上面這個就完全是交通部如果能夠率先來做定調一個方向立法院絕對配合因為這件事情比酒駕還要多出6倍這個數字是很難令人"},{"start":72.683,"end":72.703,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":89.079,"end":118.465,"text":"報告委員,台鐵的部分,我們有承諾過在春節之前不漲價。對,不漲,春節之前,現在目前距離春節只有3個月,你知道我們保久乳還可以保存6個月,那你這個3個月,說實話你別保久乳還不足誒,是不是?而且你應應電價的這個部分裡面調高,但是剛剛張家滬居委員也特別提到了,因為我們知道要為台鐵的基層來好好的講一下話,董座,你知道董座為什麼會加薪嗎?他加薪的理由是什麼?"},{"start":119.085,"end":121.526,"text":"當董做的薪資到19總計到18的時候 靈鬼作業危險的今天每個小時只有40塊錢 只有40塊錢"},{"start":144.292,"end":159.855,"text":"這對所有的基層員工來說真是情何以堪,我們再來看一下,而且呢,剛剛部長也特別提到了,你們要加薪,然後希望我們這台鐵的這個基層能夠趕上國營的事業,其實還是有很大段的一個理由的啊,我們來看一下下面一頁啊,你看,"},{"start":160.436,"end":163.498,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":177.145,"end":177.165,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、40、"},{"start":199.401,"end":203.285,"text":"報告委員,這個才剛送到院長那邊啦,因為我們跟人總那邊需要一個協調。這個部分我們很努力,然後也很快會達成,所以請委員放心,在講業務員的部分快會完成。"},{"start":223.704,"end":243.085,"text":"關於罷工怎麼辦,我們來看一下,因為時間有限了,觀光產業真的是一個鏟子,也收到非常多觀光,台灣這麼美麗的寶島。各位,你知道7月的時候我們人數是衝破150萬出國去,這比去年還是多了27%,而且你看一下,但是我們國內的旅遊,你看我們的住房率,平均的房價,"},{"start":243.666,"end":243.846,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":273.786,"end":288.323,"text":"不管是雲嘉南、陶竹苗,他們整個業績是完全消退的。那我也知道部長你最近又提出了一個所謂的獎勵發案對旅行社等等之類的,但是我永遠認為我們的觀光業要振興,不應該是用只有砸錢的方法。"},{"start":288.663,"end":289.123,"text":"這不是我們設定目標的主要目的吧?"},{"start":316.448,"end":316.588,"text":"為什麼不..."},{"start":343.164,"end":366.71,"text":"部長謝謝但是院長我還是要告訴你為什麼我覺得這件事情非常的重要因為我們大家有個很大的指標叫做瑞士洛桑管理學院公佈的你知道我們台灣在IMD的世界競爭力排名其實不錯每年都在進步它有四個面向但是其中一個很大面向叫經濟層面經濟層面裡面我們是四個面向裡面其實最差的這是你非常重視的經濟面向而且經濟面向裡面有十個指標拍謝"},{"start":368.01,"end":381.744,"text":"十個指標當中呢,就是觀光指標最糟糕。 64個全世界的經濟體當中,我們台灣只贏了4個。 所以表示我們的觀光是拖垮了我們整個經濟的面向。 所以觀光有多麼重要,不是嗎?"},{"start":381.744,"end":386.869,"text":"然後呢,我們提出來,然後我們也把觀光成立數了。 但是數有沒有辦法把我們的觀光產業變得比較好呢?"},{"start":386.869,"end":386.909,"text":"你看。"},{"start":389.872,"end":390.132,"text":"主席"},{"start":421.193,"end":423.034,"text":"我會希望觀光署跟國內一些觀光的產業甚至觀光協會每年我們的觀光旅展都非常的熱鬧"},{"start":442.568,"end":468.697,"text":"但是數據會縮化嘛,就是旅遊業,對啦,但是就是會縮化,然後我告訴你啊,是,是,因為時間關係齁,你看我們現在的航點啊,高雄小港機場的航點啊,只恢復在一起的七成到八成,雖然有非常多,你看下面有非常多,大家非常努力的,然後最近的聯合航空有沒有,部長你應該關切到了,他也公開宣布說明年7月要到我們高雄來啊,啊你們,你們交通部有沒有很積極?"},{"start":469.719,"end":497.274,"text":"當然很積極,現在聯合航空已經來跟我們申請。沒有啊,部長,你的資訊有落差,我昨天還夢過民航局,目前為止聯合航空還沒有遞書申請表。他給我的資料是10月16日上午。他還沒有介紹,所以我覺得部長我們要積極一點,我們要更積極一點,讓我們只能夠飛到美國是飛夢市好不好,這點非常的重要。人家遞書改懶制,人家已經公開宣布了,你交通部就不能坐等,你就要好好的去跟人家好好的接洽,這是我認為最重要的好不好。"},{"start":498.274,"end":521.891,"text":"太多委員支持我們會把小港機場再有系統有計劃性的 一定要的啦現在去小港到桃園每個都往桃園然後還有大包小包連桃園下了高鐵之後要到那個機場裡面的我們都還沒有好好的這個部分 所以請委員要支持我們各個年度的這樣公共建設 公共建設沒有問題啦把玉山編族公共建設我們都不會擋啦院長 所以玉山要趕快過我們明年才可以小港機場的"},{"start":523.011,"end":552.12,"text":"公共建設不會擋啦,救命救災前不會擋啊,但是先把我們該有的部分面組啦。 現在我都沒有辦法答應你啊。好,院長來啦,先來看看啦,我們還是回到我們這個高雄啊,這個高鐵難言啊,我說實在的,這個件事情我非常的清楚,因為在本席,不管從第九任,或者是兩年前在高雄市長的這個層面當中,我們就不斷,我相信只是大家非常的納悶啊,過去信誓旦旦,不管是在蘇院長,或者在任何人,信誓旦旦的告訴我們大家,"},{"start":552.58,"end":553.461,"text":"左營案 左營案"},{"start":563.973,"end":569.458,"text":"現在也還沒有真正的定案還沒有定案那左營案是因為很多的交通專家跟地方人士認為說這個車到左營以後要往屏東走他必須有一個倒退路所以大家認為不好"},{"start":585.732,"end":605.31,"text":"但高雄案就是因為他要用淺鈍的工法還是多少少影響到現在的交通狀況那一定的因為你這個黑暗期是有嘛兩者之間所以到現在決定怎麼樣再拖下去怎麼樣但是院長我在利用這個時間我覺得我們還是要把歷史說一下說實在的高雄發案我現在聽到有些立委又開始在馬維拉了"},{"start":606.511,"end":635.917,"text":"我親自問過葉部長﹖交通部長﹖他那個時候並沒有否決所謂的高雄案﹖他們那時候只是經過審慎的評估﹖認為那時候正在從事所謂的鐵路地下化﹖如果高鐵還要經過高雄﹖兩層並行﹖不管在技術上﹖在各方面裏面﹖是比較難行的﹖所以並沒有否決高雄案﹖只是先後的次序當中﹖現在每個人提到萬事﹖為什麼那個高雄案為什麼每個人還提到說十幾年前﹖萬一馬政府實在通過﹖現在就沒事了﹖院長你還附和﹖"},{"start":636.437,"end":637.779,"text":"我只是要提醒,好,那我們就把這個責任清楚。"},{"start":653.5,"end":678.503,"text":"當初的葉部長也提出而且當初葉部長所提出的理由是經過審慎的報告跟現在的鐵道局所做的報告有什麼差別嗎?有什麼差別嗎?你們那時候很多人把他罵得要死只管他那時候所提出的報告跟現在鐵道局跟蔡政府不是賴政府是蔡政府的鐵道局其實都是一樣的所以不要是國民黨提出來就好像有問題要追溯到過去蔡政府提出來大家就覺得沒有意見"},{"start":679.204,"end":680.986,"text":"部長,你有沒有看過2019年的評估報告?有關於高雄安你有沒有看過?"},{"start":699.117,"end":715.084,"text":"因為我沒有提出一個非常清楚的有關於高雄案的這樣子一個報告,因為你現在告訴我們就是說,你有沒有看過,你有沒有仔細看過他的屏幕好不好?你沒有看過,你要看一下,因為你現在告訴我們現在是要用選對是一種新的做法,是不是?你那時候有特別提到。"},{"start":715.744,"end":729.597,"text":"現在潛盾的這個技術會比過去更好一些。實際上2019年的時候但是我還是要提醒在2019年的時候《蘋果報告》裡面就告訴大家潛盾就是一個可行所以它並不是一個新的技術那時候就已經提出來了所以我剛剛為什麼盤點"},{"start":731.278,"end":755.741,"text":"都已經把過去的優點跟劣點全部都已經盤點完成了,然後你告訴我,所以當初的優點為什麼現在變成不是優點,然後把整個大的方向做一些的改變,這個加加減減,對,又還沒有定案,然後到說到年底有可能,現在幾乎所有的高雄的鄉親都認為到年底,因為說實在的我們南高雄因為是這樣子的黑暗期已經少了8萬人口了,"},{"start":757.022,"end":757.723,"text":"其實都是說年底之前會定案。"},{"start":786.007,"end":787.788,"text":"我們一直都說年底之前會定案"},{"start":816.347,"end":816.367,"text":"三、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":838.559,"end":840.381,"text":"報告委員,我們很積極的跟地方在溝通,如果我現在大膽的請教委員,你的建議呢?"},{"start":863.403,"end":885.584,"text":"臺北你看有板橋有臺北市長有南港你看整個所帶動的一個商圈那當然我只是很扼腕當初我提出來這個部分包括我們議員提出來這個部分還被民進黨的議員消遣你難道不知道我們如何如何就現在這一群人同樣的一批人突然站出來說高雄發言才是最好的選擇你知道對於當初所提出來贊成這個提出來的人"},{"start":886.405,"end":887.106,"text":"市長謝謝委員部長我們高雄案多一票"},{"start":923.714,"end":923.895,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1087,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（11時44分）謝謝院長，我們是不是請卓院長跟交通部陳部長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長及交通部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：柯委員好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：院長好、部長好，昨天在東湖發生少年無照駕駛非常遺憾的一個事件，我想數字裡面讓我們覺得更驚訝的是，根據交通部的統計，每年大概有30萬到40萬的交通事故，但是有5萬是屬於無照駕駛，而且平均會造成600人死亡，還有六萬多人受傷，最重要的是，死傷的人數竟然是酒駕的6倍。我們要跟酒駕來比，過去我們說酒駕是零容忍，那無照呢？無照駕駛又是如何呢？"],["陳部長世凱：無照駕駛，我們當然也是零容忍。報告委員，在去年6月，我們針對無照駕駛的罰則，有從最高1萬2,000加到2萬4,000。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這個部分在法規條文上面，交通部如果能夠率先來定調一個方向，立法院絕對配合，因為這件事情比酒駕還要多出6倍……"],["陳部長世凱：所以罰則應該要提高。"],["柯委員志恩：這個數字是很難令人接受的，好不好？接下來有個民生的問題，因應新電價的上路，每個人都會關切高鐵跟臺鐵會不會漲價，因為我每天的日常就是高鐵轉臺鐵，所以對我來說是非常重要的。票價會不會漲價？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺鐵的部分我們有承諾過，在春節之前不漲價。"],["柯委員志恩：對，部長說春節之前，目前距離春節只有3個月，你知道我們保久乳還可以保存6個月，你這3個月說實在比保久乳還不如，是不是？而且因應電價調高……剛剛張嘉郡委員也特別提到了，我們真的要為臺鐵的基層好好講一下話，董座，你知道董座為什麼會加薪嗎？他加薪的理由是什麼？記大功的理由是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：是因為成為國營事業，所以用國營事業主持人的標準……"],["柯委員志恩：好，國營事業要加薪，如果他的這個功這個可以這樣子比的話……"],["陳部長世凱：跟其他的國營事業都一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：好啊，那我們還是要去問嘛，當你在加薪的時候，你知道我們的基層到底是什麼樣的程度？我想請院長要看一下，當董座的薪資到19萬、總經理到18萬的時候，臨軌作業危險的津貼每個小時只有40塊錢，只有40塊錢，這對所有的基層員工來說，真是情何以堪？我們再來看一下，剛剛部長也特別提到了，你們要加薪，然後希望臺鐵的基層能夠趕上國營的事業，其實還是有很大段的理由的喔！你看他的基本薪資部分，現在是卡在你們行政院，你看這個過程，528已經函報政院，到目前為止還是沒有。從前任部長到現在，你們都認為應該要調薪，但是你看看，他們常態性也不過是1,200到3,000；非常態性，我剛剛說的，每小時只有40塊，所以院長，你要不要加快速度給這些基層員工一個交代啊？卡在那邊很久了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個文現在在交通部。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個才剛送到院長那邊啦！這個文才剛……"],["柯委員志恩：528已經發函了。"],["陳部長世凱：因為我們跟人總那邊需要一個協調的時間……"],["柯委員志恩：部長，請你就給出承諾，這些基層的員工非常的辛苦。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們很努力，然後也很快會達成，所以請委員放心，在從業人員部分，我們很快會完成。"],["柯委員志恩：好，再麻煩，好不好？基層員工我們要顧，我很害怕我高鐵轉臺鐵的人生會因此受到影響，OK？"],["陳部長世凱：不會，不會，不會受到影響。"],["柯委員志恩：萬一罷工怎麼辦？我們來看一下，因為時間有限。觀光產業真的是一個慘字，臺灣這麼美麗的寶島，各位，你知道7月的時候，我們出國人數是衝破150萬，比去年還多了27%，但是我們國內的旅遊住房率、平均房價卻雙雙走跌，而且是雪崩式的下跌。我必須要說，我們出國人數這麼多，歷年來旅遊人次的逆差，今年是創下高紀錄，高達641萬人次，我們全部給外面的人賺錢，那我們獲得什麼？你看，花蓮的地震當然很慘，下滑超過八成多，但是國內的旅遊，民眾並沒有把不去花蓮旅遊轉到西岸來，並沒有！所以不管是雲嘉南、桃竹苗，他們整個業績是完全消退的。我也知道部長最近又提出了一個所謂的獎勵方案、推旅行社等等之類的，但是我永遠認為我們的觀光業要振興，不應該只有用砸錢的方法，還應該有更積極的方法。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["柯委員志恩：最重要的是，當大家問你我們的觀光業該如何振興的時候，當然你告訴我們今年要達到1,000萬的旅客是不可能的，所以下修到750萬，但是明年你還是把它設定在1,000萬，如果整個大環境、整個制度沒有改變的話，你為什麼認為還是可以到1,000萬？你不能永遠設一個高標準，然後到年底的時候告訴我，對不起我們達不到，我們就下修，這不是設定目標的主要目的吧？"],["陳部長世凱：我們設定目標就會努力達成。報告委員，今年有一些狀況當然比較特殊，像最近颱風相對多一點，坦白說，國內的旅遊在第四季狀況會好一些，但是我們現在進入第四季遇到了颱風的狀況。之前403地震很不幸的讓我們很重要的觀光景點──太魯閣受到損害。事實上我們看到一個很重要的點，就是臺灣要有更多的觀光亮點跟景點讓國際看到，這才是重點。"],["柯委員志恩：是，部長，謝謝。但是我還是要告訴院長，為什麼我覺得這件事情非常的重要？因為有一個很大的指標，是瑞士洛桑管理學院公布的，你知道我們臺灣在IMD的世界競爭力排名其實不錯，每年都在進步，它有四個面向，其中一個很大面向叫經濟層面，其實經濟層面是我們四個面向中最差的，這是你非常重視的經濟面向，而且經濟面向裡面有10個指標，抱歉，10個指標當中就是觀光指標最糟糕。全世界64個經濟體當中，我們臺灣只贏了4個，表示我們的觀光拖垮了整個經濟面向，所以觀光有多麼重要，不是嗎？然後我們提出來，也把觀光成立「署」了，但是「署」有沒有辦法把我們的觀光產業變得比較好呢？你看，他們提出了非常多，而且把校外教學都提出來了，說實在，他們也希望校外教學不要每次都在同一個地方等等之類的，我真的要問首遊族，到底要怎麼樣？","院長你看，養殖業不行，就是班班有石斑；酪農不行，就班班有鮮奶，現在變班班有保久乳；全民防衛也找學生；現在國旅要不要變成班班出去玩啊？我們學生到底有多少的消費度啊？這個東西……"],["卓院長榮泰：大家都出去玩。"],["柯委員志恩：我是說要救觀光產業不是應該只有這樣子而已，還有非常多，觀光產業有非常多喔，你看以高雄來說，小港國際機場號稱「國際」，也做了非常多的航班，號稱是「國際」……"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望觀光署跟國內的一些觀光產業，甚至觀光協會……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：每年的觀光旅展都非常的熱鬧……"],["柯委員志恩：但數據會說話嘛，就是旅遊……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是都變成是買餐券……"],["柯委員志恩：對啦，但數字就是會說話，我告訴你啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望能夠多元化的經營。"],["柯委員志恩：是、是，因為時間關係，你看現在高雄小港機場的航點只恢復到疫情前的七成到八成，雖然你看簡報上面有非常多，大家非常努力。最近聯合航空，部長你應該有關切到，他們也公開宣布明年7月要到我們高雄……"],["陳部長世凱：是，明年7月要飛高雄，有這個計畫。"],["柯委員志恩：那你們交通部有沒有很積極？"],["陳部長世凱：當然積極，現在聯合航空已經來跟我們申請。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有啊，部長，你的資訊有落差，我昨天還問過民航局，目前為止聯合航空還沒有遞出申請表。"],["陳部長世凱：同仁給我的資料是10月16號向民航局……"],["柯委員志恩：他們還沒有，所以我覺得部長要更積極一點，讓我們飛到美國非夢事，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：當然，這個我們來努力。"],["柯委員志恩：這點非常重要，人家遞出橄欖枝，也公開宣布了，交通部就不能坐等，你們要好好的去接洽，這是我認為最重要的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["柯委員志恩：這很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：拜託委員支持，我們會把小港機場再有系統、有計畫性……"],["柯委員志恩：一定要的啦，現在小港到桃園，每個人都大包小包的往桃園，連桃園下高鐵之後要到機場都還沒有好好的……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以請委員要支持我們各個年度的公共建設，一定要讓它順利。"],["柯委員志恩：公共建設沒有問題啦，把預算編足，公共建設我們都不會擋啦，院長。"],["陳部長世凱：預算要趕快過，明年小港機場才可以……"],["柯委員志恩：公共建設不會擋啦，救命、救災錢不會擋，但是先把我們該有的部分編足。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我都沒有辦法答應你啊！"],["柯委員志恩：院長，先來看看啦，我們還是回到高雄的高鐵南延，說實在的，這件事情我非常清楚，因為本席不管是從第9任或者是兩年前在高雄市長的層面就不斷關注，只是現在大家非常的納悶，過去信誓旦旦，不管是在蘇院長或者是任何人，都信誓旦旦告訴我們左營案、左營案，怎麼賴政府上臺之後，突然就改成高雄火車站？這是我支持的，但是這個轉折點是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在……"],["柯委員志恩：以前怎麼問他們都跟我說：不可能，就是這樣，高鐵南延都告訴我左營案，怎麼你們上臺之後就突然全部變成高雄案？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，現在也還沒有真正的定案。"],["陳部長世凱：還沒有定案。"],["卓院長榮泰：左營案是因為很多的交通專家跟地方人士認為車到左營以後要往屏東走會「倒退嚕」……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，院長，這部分我清楚……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以大家認為不好，但高雄案就是因為要用潛盾的工法，多多少少還是會影響到現在的交通狀況。"],["柯委員志恩：那一定的，因為黑暗期是有的……"],["卓院長榮泰：兩者之間……"],["柯委員志恩：所以到現在決定怎麼樣？要再拖下去？但是院長，利用這個時間，我覺得還是要把歷史說一下，說實在的，對於高雄案，我現在聽到有些立委又開始在馬維拉了。我親自問過交通部葉部長，他們那時候並沒有否決高雄案，只是經過審慎的評估，認為那時候正在從事鐵路地下化，如果高鐵還要經過高雄，兩者併行，不管在技術上、在各方面是比較難行的，所以並沒有否決高雄案，只是在於先後次序。現在每個人提到高雄案，都說十幾年前馬政府時代通過，現在就沒事了，院長你還附和！不是這樣子的！"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有這樣講過！"],["柯委員志恩：你還告訴我說，對啊，早十幾年前如果能選擇高雄案的話就應該……"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說我到高雄去，他們跟我說，早十幾年做會省很多錢。我說那我現在要趕快做，為未來的院長省一些錢。所以要趕快決定，我沒有把責任給誰。"],["柯委員志恩：我只是要提醒……好，那我們就把責任釐清楚。當初葉部長有提出，而且他提出的理由也是經過審慎評估後的報告，跟現在鐵道局所做的報告有什麼差別嗎？有什麼差別嗎？你們那時候很多人把他罵得要死，結果他那時候所提出的報告，跟現在的鐵道局、跟蔡政府，不是賴政府，是蔡政府鐵道局的報告其實都是一樣的，所以不要認為國民黨提出來的就好像有問題，要追溯到過去；蔡政府提出來的就覺得沒有意見。不要這樣，這樣是不好的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我只是在想辦法解決現在的問題。"],["柯委員志恩：是，但我還是要強調，那時候並不是這樣！而且民進黨執政了八年，如果認為高雄案很棒的話，早該實行了，不要牽拖太多。不過我還是要問一下部長，有沒有看過109年的評估報告？關於高雄案，你有沒有看過109年的報告？"],["陳部長世凱：109年的我沒有看過。"],["柯委員志恩：因為我們有提出一個非常清楚的高雄案報告，你現在告訴我們……你有沒有看過？你有沒有仔細看過評估報告？"],["陳部長世凱：109年的沒有看過。"],["柯委員志恩：你沒有看過？你要看一下，因為你告訴我們，現在是要用潛盾，是一種新的做法，是不是？你那時候有特別提到。"],["陳部長世凱：現在潛盾的技術會比過去更好一些，所以現在潛盾的範圍可以做更多。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是要提醒，事實上在109年時，評估報告裡就告訴大家，潛盾就是可行。所以它並不是新的技術，那時候就已經提出來了。"],["陳部長世凱：現在可以做得更好。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我剛剛為什麼盤點？都已經把過去的優點跟劣點全部盤點完成了，然後你告訴我，當初的優點現在變成不是優點，然後把大方向做一些改變，這個加加減減……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，還沒定案。"],["柯委員志恩：對，又還沒有定案，然後說到年底有可能……"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望年底要定案。"],["柯委員志恩：現在幾乎所有高雄的鄉親都認為年底。說實在的，南高雄因為這樣的黑暗期已經少了八萬人口，所以這對整個高雄產業來說，特別是在高雄車站附近的產業人口來說，是一件很不公平的事。好不容易有很多人認為現在的評估可能比過去好一點，高雄方案對於南高雄的振興會好一點，結果呢？以為快定案了，現在又開始了好像還沒有，到底什麼時候？到底哪個案？什麼時候可以定？可不可以告訴我們一個很明確的方式？"],["陳部長世凱：一直都說年底之前會定案。"],["柯委員志恩：年底之前？不會再改變了吧？"],["陳部長世凱：我們一直都說年底之前會定案。"],["柯委員志恩：目前距離年底剩不到兩個月時間。所以我還是要強調，澄清這些事情，包括過去左營案經過台塑，彼此之間非常接近，然後到屏東六堆，該討論的事情都有，但是我們擔心，因為我們問過那時候的行政院長，信誓旦旦，包括前交通部長林佳龍都信誓旦旦告訴我們，採用左營案才是最好的選擇，所以大家就接受事實。沒想到當高雄案又重新復活時，當然，會有不同的想法，但大家好像又看到一線生機，覺得好像已經百分之八、九十可以了，都往那一方面去了，已經開始在討論了，像如何透過潛盾的方法降低技術層面的干擾、附近的商圈到底該怎樣振興，這些都已經在討論了，然後你現在跟我說要等到年底？如果年底又沒有呢？你要讓我們等多久？這個東西對於產業發展是不行的。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們很積極在跟地方溝通。如果我現在大膽請教委員你的建議呢？"],["柯委員志恩：我兩年前就告訴大家，高雄案對於永續發展來說、對整個高雄車站的永續發展……當然，我們可能必須承擔十年的黑暗期，但是對一個城市的永續發展來說，你看有板橋、有臺北車站、有南港，整個所帶動出來的商圈。我只是覺得很扼腕，當初我提出來這部分，包括我們議員也提出來這部分，還被民進黨議員消遣：你難道不知道我們如何如何嗎？結果現在這一群人、同樣的一批人突然站出來說，高雄方案才是最好的選擇！對於當初提出這方案，贊成這方案的人來說，這個落差……但我們還是一句話，不用往前面看，我現在只是要強調，對我們來說，整個南高雄的發展，就是降低最少的困擾、減短我們的黑暗期。然後我還是一句話，永續發展不是大家的共同目標嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員，部長，高雄案多一票。"],["陳部長世凱：多一票？我要紀錄一下。"],["柯委員志恩：不只多一票，非常多票啦，但還是請部長把109年的評估報告拿來做比對，當初的優點現在應該還是優點，至於當初的缺點該怎麼解決，這才是重點。不要把正反又開始……沒辦法撐那麼久了，已經拖太久了，好不好？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。謝謝。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行交通組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":34,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1138101_00001"}}},{"id":"155755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc0217997f09e1b99ecc5a6eba687ce68b1b099d824cb732ac9a9e76bb92e93d37070375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:29:25 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三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":96.307,"end":98.428,"text":"外送員認為市場有它的平衡機制,如果漲價沒人點"},{"start":112.577,"end":112.737,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":132.403,"end":151.677,"text":"這個部分您所提出來的數字您剛剛也說了這是外送員工會所算出來的數字那代表外送員工會其實都知道這件事那這個部分本來就是他們都知道那現在大家談這些都還太早因為現在我們是要針對運費透明化這件事來進行我們只是在規劃整個計算的公式"},{"start":155.279,"end":181.191,"text":"那計算的公式出來之後以後會有幾方有五方共同來決定這個這個費率哪五方呢消費者基金會然後外送員的工會再提醒你外送員的工會就是這個部分呢因為你們在之前都沒有跟他們有討論包括16號下午你們才緊急發通知給這個消基會說希望他們16號早17號早上來開會他們就拒絕了"},{"start":183.792,"end":187.074,"text":"本席要提醒你的是,這個草案就跟斑斑有纖如。"},{"start":200.72,"end":227.525,"text":"同樣的翻版,缺乏溝通,不夠接地氣,這簡直就是在辦公室裡面想出來的政策,那一開始在公告修正草案之前的會議根本沒有任何消費者團體的聲音,所以16號發文的就是為了挽救嘛,所以提醒你一定要重視,否則你這樣子等於是"},{"start":229.236,"end":251.597,"text":"療草的上路的話影響的非常多,影響的非常多。好,那接下來呢,卓院長,我也必須提醒您,不只是交通部如此,你說教育部跟農業部剛剛我們提出的那個案子,就是斑斑有鮮奶,變成斑斑有薄酒乳之外,薄酒乳還供應不上,結果呢,"},{"start":253.212,"end":273.375,"text":"問了農業部,農業部說你喝不上飽酒乳,你喝鮮乳啊,這不是何不死肉糜啊,真的我覺得荒唐到了一個極點,我們其實本意是要照顧落農,結果不止沒有照顧到落農,還排擠了小型的落農跟養乳的落農,所以"},{"start":273.695,"end":273.815,"text":"主席"},{"start":296.451,"end":312.743,"text":"我希望大家的創意都要經過非常合理深入的討論而且在討論的初期如果還沒有廣泛跟外界有溝通不宜把任何的意見快速的向外界來宣布或是透露出來這樣會造成大家的不安"},{"start":313.123,"end":339.548,"text":"但是我認為所有的他的創意的原意應該都是好的。 那我們從這個方向來大家更理智的。 同意就是你有發想很好但是你要有一些成熟的方案在對外宣布。 否則實在是會讓人家覺得有一點荒腔折磅而且政策反覆一下子說這樣一下子說那樣。 隔天又說道歉十幾次說他只是在發想階段我覺得這樣子會"},{"start":341.088,"end":367.085,"text":"讓民眾對整個內閣的可信度打折,間接影響到院長的credit,所以這一點提醒院長可以鼓勵大家再深思熟慮,再發起。那另外呢,我想請問院長,臺鐵公司10月初有一份從業人員待遇表的草案,將新進人員起薪調升3000元,但是公司化後"},{"start":368.306,"end":368.566,"text":"主席"},{"start":391.132,"end":407.757,"text":"但是呢大家有問題有疑慮的是說為什麼新任人員的待遇提高原任的員工卻沒有調薪如果有沒有估算過說為什麼只有調薪進人員然後如果全體調要提升多少呢?"},{"start":409.158,"end":410.479,"text":"就是希望能夠妥善處理因為本席也很擔心說假設"},{"start":430.029,"end":457.866,"text":"就是這個薪資的不公平導致說台鐵有罷工或者是說營運可能無法負擔假設要全面調薪可能營運無法負擔那會不會像台電一樣要發生說交通部要撥補他這樣子的一個情況目前的狀況確實是不公平所以才調那從業人員比原本的人員低那我們現在希望從業人員先拉上來先拉上來這個是第一步我們要先做的"},{"start":458.967,"end":463.65,"text":"本席在這裡希望部長能夠妥善處理,不要影響到其他我們一般消費者的權益。"},{"start":484.79,"end":508.103,"text":"請問院長,數位部的打炸APP你有看過嗎?有。有看過。你知道數位部應該是打炸最重要的一個機關之一是嗎?從技術面來看是,但實際執行的應該還有我們的檢警調系統。那對於數位部打炸的成果,院長你滿意嗎?"},{"start":509.687,"end":519.422,"text":"蘇衛部打詐的成果他這個APP只是一個讓大家檢視他受到的國人受到的資訊是真是假他是在檢視這個真假"},{"start":520.95,"end":543.295,"text":"有個數據喔本席跟院長說一下去年的詐欺案件發生是37832件在前年增加了8314件加了28.17%詐騙的這個案件是越打越多那部長你們數位部在9月底推出了網路詐騙通報查詢網是不是?"},{"start":545.876,"end":546.497,"text":"那請問一下這個APP花了多少錢?"},{"start":555.247,"end":582.458,"text":"我們這個計畫是從既有的計畫裡面去挪出來的大概這個是一個數字我們大概就包括維運包括維運包括客服大概加起來大概是一千多萬一千三百萬那目前呢普遍的評價是非常粗糙那包括Apple Store跟Play商店的評分是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":584.406,"end":585.734,"text":"大概是從3點左右"},{"start":586.513,"end":611.934,"text":"差不多2.6星部長你會不會覺得這個有一點不滿意我個人從事軟體做40年所以這個兩個層面一個是說它好不好用那我承認這個推出來的時候的確在可用就是好不好用是有進步的空間但是它的效果我們看到了我給委員報告一下我們在15天的公測本席再提醒你你講到了"},{"start":615.523,"end":640.842,"text":"這個數位部上架幾天之後大家反應很不好他馬上就下架了他這個詐騙通報網他說這個是公測APP是公測就已經完成了階段性任務所以你1300萬15天就把它用完了你就把它花了就把它下架了我的老天啊我真的是嚇一跳"},{"start":642.564,"end":657.986,"text":"詐騙通報還需要公測?而且你只用了15天就把它下降了,我到底看到什麼啦?你們公測了什麼?你們完成了什麼階段性任務?因為我們原來就是要收集一萬個民眾的feedback,那這個我們收集到了。"},{"start":658.266,"end":675.266,"text":"那請問還有第二階段的公測第三階段的公測是不是反正只要做不好就說是公測就可以下架但是如果數位部做不好你也可以說是數位部是公測啊數位部也可以裁掉啊我們在上去的時候就已經說這叫公測版"},{"start":675.854,"end":701.956,"text":"所以並不是後來才說的就是另外一個更嚴重的問題本席在下架前就已經下載了目前還可以截圖請看這個昨天的截圖就我們打架APP自己聲稱說用AI去尋找詐騙資訊的檔案結果全部都是色情廣告全部都是色情廣告你覺得這個是數位部想要達成的目標嗎所以就是我們在講說我們第一個公測的目的就是找出這些問題"},{"start":702.637,"end":702.657,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":720.942,"end":743.745,"text":"指出這個網站有問題之後他可以進去通報詳細來說明他被騙三個是這個APP必須要非常好的操作非常好的操作所以部長您真的要加油啊所以這個錢就好像撒了十幾天就花了一千多萬結果還沒有成果搜尋到了全部都是色情廣告這合適嗎?"},{"start":745.106,"end":761.454,"text":"發言委員是從5月到12月的預計要發展?抱歉因為我時間有限,我想要接下來再問一下地方建設,就是院長,我們這個斗六鐵道次故停船,到目前為止,今年9月兩則,5月好幾條人命,"},{"start":764.375,"end":791.829,"text":"都沒了所以針對斗六鐵路高價化一案本席今年也邀請了會刊多次最終已經解決了曲率半徑效益評估跟臨時評交到的三大關口讓斗六鐵路高價化可以敗部復活這是斗六人已經期盼了二三十年的夢但是院長真的很需要您的幫忙因為呢縣府把這個案子可行性評估"},{"start":792.85,"end":794.832,"text":"請問一下這個審查期程大概還要多久?部長您可以回答嗎?"},{"start":816.252,"end":841.6,"text":"目前我們已經送到部了,鐵道局那邊已經送到交通部了,那我們交通部最近會來開審查會議。最近大概多久?我要跟內部再討論一下。一個禮拜、三個禮拜還是三個月?我跟內部來討論一下。因為你加快騎乘,你是在保障我們這些人民的行車安全。那我也想舉一個例子,就是說"},{"start":871.883,"end":879.748,"text":"謝謝張嘉郡委員質詢,謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢,謝謝。報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽的來自南投縣"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":980,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時28分）院長午安，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長，我想要請問您，您自己有用過外送平臺，類似Uber Eats或foodpanda嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有啊！在疫情期間用的又特別多。"],["張委員嘉郡：應該不錯用吧？怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：不錯用，很方便。"],["張委員嘉郡：很方便吧？最近交通部提出了一個預告修法，跟Uber Eats跟foodpanda都息息相關，就是明定機車外送平臺的費率公式可以加收等待費還有樓層費跟夜間加乘的費用。本席要先請教院長，您支持交通部這個預告案嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先這個預告案的內容現在還沒有完全確定下來，但預告的內容就是多聽聽外界的意見，不過我認為它的原意就是在保障外送員，也保障這些小商家、小店家，也保障消費者……"],["張委員嘉郡：假設是像院長這樣講的，我覺得這個立意良善，雖然現在還沒有明定這個價格，但是根據工會的估算，結果大致上每趟基本運費是60元，每個樓層加5元，夜間再加20元，當然我相信不管是院長或是部長，都是想要照顧這些基層的外送員，但如果這是一個好的政策，大家應該都要拍手鼓掌，可是到目前為止，本席這邊收到不管是外送平臺的主管、不管是外送員，甚至消費者都有一些雜音。這一點我想要提醒交通部，可能要儘速去吸收這些團體的意見，包括與他們自身利益相關的這些團體，聽聽他們的意見。","本席提供你一個Yahoo正在做的民調，這份民調短短5天內有超過11萬的填答者，代表民眾真的非常在意這個草案，由於目前工會提出來的漲價。漲幅算是非常的多，有88%的民眾表示說，未來每一筆外送運送費調漲60至85元，他們會減少使用，甚至可能考慮不再使用外送。所以這個部分，陳情的有外送平臺、有外送員，包括餐飲業者跟消費者，如果這個不是他們推動的，他們對這個狀況毫無所知，包括外送平臺本身也說他們真的不曉得會發生這個事情，外送員認為市場有它的平衡機制，如果漲價沒人點，單數變少了，他的收入也會變少，所以間接也影響到外送員的權益，包括現在的小費機制，他們是全額可以拿到，假設這些都加上去了，反而他們小費可能會減少，不曉得部長有沒有考慮過這一點？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個部分，你所提出來的數字，你剛剛也說了，這是外送員工會所算出來的數字，代表外送員工會其實都知道這件事，這個部分本來他們就都知道，現在大家談這些都還太早，因為現在我們是要針對運費透明化這件事來進行……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個本席也支持。"],["陳部長世凱：我們只是在規劃整個計算的公式，計算的公式出來之後，以後會有五方共同來決定這個費率，哪五方呢？消費者基金會，然後外送員的工會……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個本席再提醒你……"],["陳部長世凱：外送員的工會，還有業者……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個部分因為你們在之前都沒有跟他們有討論，包括16號下午你們才緊急發通知給消基會……"],["陳部長世凱：不是，委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：說希望他們17號早上來開會，他們就拒絕了，因為太倉促了，簡直就是為了你要緊急上路，急就章在做挽回的一個措施……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，今天晚上6點我們會跟消基會的董事長碰面。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席要提醒你的是，這個草案就跟班班有鮮乳一樣的翻版，缺乏溝通、不夠接地氣，簡直就是在辦公室裡面想出來的政策，一開始在公告這個修正草案之前的會議……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前還沒有形成政策，目前是在討論的過程。"],["張委員嘉郡：根本沒有任何消費者團體的聲音……"],["陳部長世凱：我們必須要啟動討論……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以16號的發文就是為了挽救嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：如果沒有啟動討論，就不會有這件事。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以提醒你……"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：一定要重視……"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["張委員嘉郡：否則你這樣子等於是潦草上路的話，影響了非常多。"],["陳部長世凱：其實外送員工會都非常歡迎我們做這個動作。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長，我也必須提醒你，不只是交通部如此，像教育部跟農業部，剛剛我們提出的那個案子，就是班班有鮮奶變成班班有保久乳之外，保久乳還供應不上，結果呢？問了農業部，農業部說你喝不上保久乳，你喝鮮乳啊！這不是何不食肉糜啊！真的，我覺得荒唐到了一個極點，我們其實本意是要照顧酪農，結果不只沒有照顧到酪農，還排擠了小型的酪農跟羊乳的酪農。包括經濟部長說他要從菲律賓買綠電，用海底電纜接回來等等，希望卓院長可以鼓勵這些閣員真的要貼近民意，不要再語出驚人，有時候真的嚇壞了，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望大家的創意都要經過非常合理、深入的討論，而且在討論的初期，如果還沒有廣泛跟外界溝通，不宜把任何的意見快速地向外界宣布或是透露出來，這樣會造成大家的不安。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我認為所有創意的原意應該都是好的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我同意。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以從這個方向，大家更理智……"],["張委員嘉郡：同意，就是你有發想很好，但是你要有一些成熟的方案後再對外宣布，否則實在是會讓人家覺得有一點荒腔走板，而且政策反覆，一下子說這樣、一下說那樣，隔天又道歉十幾次，說只是在發想階段，我覺得這樣子會讓民眾對整個內閣的可信度打折，間接影響到院長的credit。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這一點提醒院長可以鼓勵大家深思熟慮再發起。另外，我想請問院長，臺鐵公司10月初有一份從業人員待遇表的草案，將新進人員起薪調升3,000元，但是公司化後原任的一萬多名員工待遇似乎都還沒有更改，請問這個是否屬實？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺鐵在公司化之後，必須在財務上有一個全新的模式，用公司治理的方式來調整內部的待遇跟各項福利，我認為這個都應該在整個財政狀況可控的範圍內逐步地調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，但是大家有問題、有疑慮的是，為什麼新任人員的待遇提高，原任的員工卻沒有調薪？有沒有估算過，為什麼只有調新進人員？如果全體都調，要提升多少呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個還要詳細算，因為新任的人員是依照現在公司化之後公司治理的制度來走，原任的因為在公司已經久任了，他必須有一定程度的時間調換。"],["張委員嘉郡：希望能夠妥善處理啊！因為本席也很擔心因為薪資的不公平而導致臺鐵罷工，或者是營運可能無法負擔。假設要全面調薪，可能營運無法負擔，那會不會像台電一樣，發生交通部要撥補它的情況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前的狀況確實是不公平，所以才調，從業人員比原本的人員低，我們現在希望從業人員先拉上來，這個是我們第一步要先做的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，因為本席接到陳情，已經有一千五百多名的臺鐵員工連署要到交通部去開記者會，希望能夠提出原任人員要有合理的待遇方式。本席這裡也希望部長能夠妥善處理，不要影響到我們其他一般消費者的權益。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。請問院長，數位部的打詐app你有看過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["張委員嘉郡：你知道數位部應該是打詐最重要的一個機關之一，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：從技術面來看是，但實際執行的應該還有我們的檢警調系統。"],["張委員嘉郡：對於數位部打詐的成果？院長，你滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：數位部打詐的成果，它這個app只是一個讓國人檢視收到的資訊是真是假，只是在檢視這個真假。"],["張委員嘉郡：有一個數據，本席跟院長說一下，去年的詐欺案件發生了3萬7,832件，較前年增加了8,314件，也就是增加了28.17%，詐騙的案件是越打越多！部長，你們數位部在9月底推出了網路詐騙通報查詢網，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們在9月底推出，然後在那時候就進行所謂的公測。"],["張委員嘉郡：請問一下這個app花了多少錢？"],["黃部長彥男：我們這個計畫是從既有的計畫裡面去挪出來的，這一個數字，我們大概就包括維運……"],["張委員嘉郡：花了多少錢？"],["黃部長彥男：包括維運……"],["張委員嘉郡：花了多少錢？"],["黃部長彥男：包括客服，加起來大概是一千萬出頭。"],["張委員嘉郡：1,300萬，目前普遍的評價是非常粗糙，包括Apple Store跟Play商店的評分是多少，你知道嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：大概是從3左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：差不多2.6星啦，部長，你會不會覺得這個有一點不滿意？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我個人從事軟體工作40年，所以這個有兩個層面，一個是說它好不好用，我承認這個推出來的時候的確在可用，就是好不好用是有進步的空間，但是它的效果我們看到了，我跟委員報告一下，我們在15天的公測……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席再提醒你，你講到了，數位部上架幾天之後，大家的反應很不好，它馬上就下架了。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個詐騙通報網，它說這個是公測，app是公測，已經完成了階段性任務，所以1,300萬15天就把它用完了？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個是……"],["張委員嘉郡：你就把它花了、就把它下架了。"],["黃部長彥男：沒有，我們會再上架，會再……"],["張委員嘉郡：我的老天啊！我真的是嚇一跳，詐騙通報還需要公測？"],["黃部長彥男：當然要……"],["張委員嘉郡：而且你只用15天就把它下架了，我到底看到什麼啦？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：你們公測了什麼？你們完成了什麼階段性任務？"],["黃部長彥男：因為我們原來就是要蒐集1萬個民眾的feedback，我們蒐集到了，所以我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：請問還有第二階段的公測、第三階段的公測？"],["黃部長彥男：當然、當然。"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是反正只要做不好，就說是公測，就可以下架？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：如果數位部做不好，你也可以說數位部是公測啊！數位部也可以裁掉啊！"],["黃部長彥男：我們在上去的時候就已經說這叫公測版，並不是後來才說。"],["張委員嘉郡：另外一個更嚴重的問題，本席在下架前就已經下載了，目前還可以截圖，請看這是昨天的截圖，我們打詐app自己聲稱說用AI去尋找詐騙資訊的檔案，結果全部都是色情廣告，全部都是色情廣告！你覺得這個是數位部想要達成的目標嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們說這個公測的目的就是找出這些問題，然後我們在下個階段會……"],["張委員嘉郡：數位部，請你們加油。"],["黃部長彥男：會。"],["張委員嘉郡：真的拜託你們。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我只要求它有三個方向一定要做好，第一個，要精準，這個是詐不是詐，要精準告訴國人；第二，如果它有問題，我們要有一個通報系統的連結，讓國人因為指出它的網站有問題之後，可以進去通報，詳細來說明……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，本席也這樣期待。"],["卓院長榮泰：第三個，這個app必須要非常好操作。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想這是院長跟本席共同的期待，所以部長您真的要加油啊！"],["黃部長彥男：會，沒問題……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個錢就好像撒了，十幾天就花了一千多萬，結果還沒有成果，搜尋到的全部都是色情廣告，這合適嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，從5月到12月預計要發展……"],["張委員嘉郡：不好意思，因為我時間有限，接下來我想要再問一下地方建設。院長，我們斗六鐵道事故頻傳，到目前為止，今年9月2則、5月好幾條人命都沒了，所以針對斗六鐵路高架化一案，本席今年也邀請會勘多次，最終已經解決了曲率半徑、效益評估跟臨時平交道的三大關卡，讓斗六鐵路高架化可以敗部復活，這是斗六人已經期盼了二、三十年的夢。","但是院長，真的很需要您的幫忙，因為縣府把這個案子可行性評估送出去之後，已經4個月了，到目前為止都還沒有審查，所以是不是可以拜託院長指示交通部儘速的開審查委員會？因為這個審查拖一天，就有越多人民的生命受到威脅。請問一下，這個審查期程大概還要多久，部長您可以回答嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們已經送到部了，鐵道局已經送到交通部了，我們交通部最近會來開審查會議。"],["張委員嘉郡：最近是大概多久？"],["陳部長世凱：我要跟內部再討論一下。"],["張委員嘉郡：是一個禮拜、三個禮拜還是三個月？"],["陳部長世凱：我跟內部來討論一下。"],["張委員嘉郡：儘速好不好？因為你加快期程，是在保障我們這些人民的行車安全啊！我也想舉一個例子，過去潮州鐵路……","希望可以加速，儘速來審查，包括高鐵，現在雲林高鐵一票難求，除了加班之外，整個高鐵大塞車，希望可以開一個後門，西側再開一個門擴站才有辦法，否則整個都回堵非常的嚴重，拜託部長、拜託院長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的是來自南投縣南投市永興社區發展協會，熱情歡迎。","接下來請登記第3位柯志恩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":34,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1138101_00001"}}},{"id":"155754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc02179238928e5be901e0feba687ce68b1b099d824cb732ac9a9e7d58348d2a66612b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"11:23:43 - 11:26:55","影片長度":"00:03:12","會議時間":"2024-10-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月22日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-18","start_time":"2024-10-18T11:23:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-18T11:26:55+08:00","duration":192,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議","id":"院會-11-2-5","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.99409375000002,"end":183.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.74909375000001,"end":189.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.22471875000002,"end":191.96721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":22.984,"text":"謝謝院長,各位同仁,還有所有媒體的朋友。斑斑有鮮奶政策,四年四十四億。那說好的要在今年九月開學之後,讓我們的學童每一週都能夠喝到兩次的鮮奶。但是現在已經十月中了,我們看到斑斑有鮮奶變成斑斑有飽酒乳。"},{"start":23.484,"end":43.926,"text":"而斑斑有保久乳現在竟然變成了斑斑在等待。 那麼本院國民黨黨團要建請院會做成以下的決議。 有鑒於政府因應明年紐西蘭鮮奶零關稅, 為了要減少本土落農的衝擊, 農業部跟教育部"},{"start":44.626,"end":69.531,"text":"實施了斑斑有鮮奶政策,但是因為沒有顧及到冷鏈配送的問題,學校冷藏儲存的問題,以及相關食安疑慮的考慮,所以有很多的學生高達75%以上都選擇了飽酒乳,以至於演變成斑斑有鮮奶政策,現在是斑斑有飽酒乳政策。"},{"start":70.331,"end":91.756,"text":"同時因為大家都選擇了飽酒乳所以現在我們市面上飽酒乳大缺貨以及大漲價那麼就連現在我們即便要喝飽酒乳那麼也沒有辦法足量適時的讓我們學童可以喝到所以這是政府規劃不周配套不足"},{"start":92.276,"end":120.732,"text":"那麼再加上政策倉促上路所以造成了學校現場混亂我們所有第一線教學的老師非常的有壓力那麼這都是種種的困擾那麼也沒有辦法來落實照顧到本土的落農可以說是嚴重的傷害了本土乳品的產業也影響了民生物資的一個價格穩定所以在這裡我們要求農業部要求我們的教育部"},{"start":122.132,"end":144.278,"text":"應該儘速檢討斑斑有鮮奶政策現在實行的狀況以及所遇到的問題點並且來趕快的思考是不是應該要來發放鮮奶券比照現行有許多的縣市都是在寒暑假針對弱勢的學生發放營養午餐券的方式我們用鮮奶券"},{"start":144.998,"end":172.497,"text":"讓每一個孩子可以快速的自行的到我們的超商到我們的大賣場來兌換他們所需的乳品我想這樣子才可能有機會來落實斑斑有鮮奶原來的政策那麼這樣的一個這個執行方案的改善那希望我們的這個行政部門能夠盡快加速來做以確保學生飲用安全衛生的乳製品並且能夠兼顧"},{"start":173.798,"end":174.019,"text":"發言委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時23分）謝謝院長，各位同仁還有所有的媒體朋友。「班班有鮮奶」政策4年44億，說好要在今年9月開學之後，讓我們的學童每一週都能夠喝到兩次鮮奶，但是現在已經10月中了，我們看到「班班有鮮奶」變成「班班有保久乳」，而「班班有保久乳」現在竟然變成了「班班在等待」！","本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成以下的決議：有鑑於政府因應明年紐西蘭鮮奶零關稅，為了要減少本土酪農的衝擊，農業部跟教育部實施了「班班有鮮奶」政策，但是因為沒有顧及到冷鏈配送的問題、學校冷藏儲存的問題、以及相關食安疑慮的考慮，所以有高達百分之七十五以上的學生都選擇了保久乳，以致於「班班有鮮奶」政策現在演變成「班班有保久乳」政策。同時，因為大家都選擇了保久乳，所以現在我們市面上保久乳大缺貨以及大漲價，就連現在我們即便要喝保久乳，也沒有辦法足量，讓我們學童可以適時的喝到，所以這是政府規劃不周、配套不足，再加上政策倉促上路，所以造成了學校現場混亂，所有第一線教學的老師非常的有壓力，這都是種種的困擾，也沒有辦法落實照顧到本土的酪農，可以說是嚴重的傷害了本土乳品的產業，也影響了民生物資的價格穩定。","所以在這裡，我們要求農業部、要求我們的教育部，應該儘速檢討「班班有鮮奶」政策現在實行的狀況，以及所遇到的問題點，並且趕快來思考，是不是應該要發放鮮奶券，比照現行有許多的縣市都是在寒暑假，針對弱勢的學生發放營養午餐券的方式，我們用鮮奶券，讓每一個孩子可以快速的、自行的到超商、到大賣場來兌換他們所需的乳品，我想這樣子才可能有機會落實「班班有鮮奶」原來的政策，這樣一個執行方案的改善，希望我們的行政部門能夠儘快加速來做，以確保學生飲用安全衛生的乳製品，並且能夠兼顧本土乳品產業的穩定發展，以上。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的發言。報告院會，現在進行大體討論，沒有委員登記就不再發言。","報告院會，現有國民黨黨團提議逕付二讀。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":34,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1138101_00001"}}},{"id":"155753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc02179f18191a7b376e642eba687ce68b1b09901d85e9659c99eda4d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:13:58 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佔我們所有乳癌的比例12到15%,好發在年輕的女性同時還有高復發率、高轉移率、高死亡率這樣子的特性。"},{"start":64.139,"end":86.181,"text":"他可以存活的關鍵在於是否發生轉移,一旦轉移到重要的器官,就會使存活率大大的降低。 前幾天我出席一場乳癌防治的活動,就遇到年僅29歲的年輕女生,過去漸漸從來沒有看到過紅字,也沒有家庭病史的健康寶寶。"},{"start":87.562,"end":107.309,"text":"卻在某一天摸到左側乳房有硬塊,後續接受各種檢查,才發現已經罹患了早期高風險的三陰性乳癌。然而對於這名女孩,知道罹患乳癌並非最痛苦的事,而是整個治療過程和巨額的費用。"},{"start":108.189,"end":133.967,"text":"首先呢他必須扛起數百萬的自費新一代藥物兩年的治療期間醫療手術費用就超過500萬元如果他沒有持續的抱病在科技業工作加上家人幫忙還有商業的保險支援換做一般人根本難以負擔直接的醫療支出以及間接的經濟損失都非常大"},{"start":135.408,"end":152.829,"text":"雖說三陰性乳癌並非無藥可治﹐但比起我們現在健保給付的其他乳癌﹐比如早期荷爾蒙陽性﹐還有HER2陽性﹐都有多種藥物納入健保﹐唯有三陰性乳癌只給付了化療藥﹐但現在國際的指引"},{"start":153.269,"end":155.191,"text":"三、10月22日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月22日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月22日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":172.086,"end":186.798,"text":"所以在這裡本席呼籲政府加速彌補這樣子的缺口﹐把完整的化療並用免疫療法納入﹐我們不要去漏接任何一位的乳癌病友﹐希望落實健康平權﹐一起翻轉。謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":29,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時14分）主席、各位官員、委員同事及媒體朋友，大家早安。我們光輝的十月同時是粉紅乳癌防治月，所以今天讓我們藉由這個機會來關心全國的婦女同胞。乳癌是臺灣女性發生率第一名、死亡率第二名的癌症，每年有一萬多個診斷案例，平均每天全臺有31位被告知診斷出乳癌，也就代表有31個不知所措接到噩耗的家庭，並且每天有7.7位女性因為乳癌而過世。而乳癌其中有一種三陰性，更是癌友們避之唯恐不及的大魔王，占所有乳癌的比例12到15%，好發在年輕的女性，同時還有高復發率、高轉移率、高死亡率的特性。它可以存活的關鍵在於是否發生轉移，一旦轉移到重要的器官，就會使存活率大大的降低。","前幾天我出席一場乳癌防治活動，就遇到年僅29歲的年輕女生，過去健檢從來沒有看到過紅字，也沒有家庭病史的健康寶寶，卻在某一天摸到左側乳房有硬塊，後續接受各種檢查才發現已經罹患了早期高風險的三陰性乳癌。然而，對於這名女孩，知道罹患乳癌並非最痛苦的事，而是整個治療過程和巨額的費用。首先，他必須扛起數百萬的新一代自費藥物，兩年的治療期間，醫療手術費用就超過500萬元，如果他沒有持續的抱病在科技業工作，加上家人幫忙，還有商業的保險支援，換作一般人根本難以負擔，直接的醫療支出以及間接的經濟損失都非常大。","雖說三陰性乳癌並非無藥可治，但比起我們現在健保給付的其他乳癌，比如早期荷爾蒙陽性還有HER2陽性，都有多種藥物納入健保，唯有三陰性乳癌只給付了化療藥，但現在國際的指引，建議還必須加上免疫治療以及術前、術後的輔助治療等等來降低復發。很遺憾，三陰性雖然占比12到15%，可是它就像乳癌個案的孤兒一樣，至今最適宜的療法都尚未納入健保給付。所以在這裡，本席呼籲政府加速彌補這樣的缺口，把完整的化療併用免疫療法納入，我們不要漏接任何一位乳癌病友，希望落實健康平權，一起翻轉。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","報告院會，現在登記國是論壇發言的委員，均已發言完畢，我們現在休息。","休息（9時17分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳春城","羅智強","許宇甄","洪孟楷","陳菁徽"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1138101_00011"}}},{"id":"155752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc021790a217d84702e39e5eba687ce68b1b09901d85e9659c99edaaca9bc7b5eabd6695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:10:34 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沒錯昨天說已經因為引起華蘭所以又再終止這樣的一個政策但我們真的要問的是核心問題是什麼沒有修過的法令你們持續照走你們的相關流程這是根本就是完全藐視立法的行為及立法的一個程序再者要"},{"start":134.42,"end":154.298,"text":"用扶擒同意書﹖可以﹖先請綠營高官們﹖你們的子女都先簽下同意書﹖或者是請你們有在海外的那些子女﹖有拿綠卡的﹖有生活在其他國家的﹖都先回來一起保衛臺灣這塊土地﹖不要把人的兒子死不了﹖"},{"start":154.998,"end":175.113,"text":"再來菲律賓重電,把電賣交在別人的手上,用數百公里的電纜或者是運輸船來運輸,這樣子真的符合我們的經濟效益,真的符合我們的國家安全嗎?不要再說你是誤闖政治叢林的小白兔,根本就是一個政治小白。"},{"start":176.914,"end":197.433,"text":"我們拜託我們的官員們好好瞭解現在的民意,主流的民意,掌握方向,執政不是家家酒,已經快上任半年了,不要再搞這種兒戲的把戲了,謝謝。謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言,接下來請登記第5號陳金威委員發言。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":20,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時10分）主席、行政官員以及各位立院同仁。執政不是家家酒，我們希望中華民國長治久安，就請行政團隊好好的了解民意、掌握民意，並且貼近民意。","有人說一個好的領導者或是好的執政團隊會有三個層次，最上層次是能夠謀定而後動，領導國人帶領方向；中層次是了解現在民眾，苦民所苦，當看到民眾的需求時，能適時調整政策以符合民意；下層次是真的做了錯誤的決策時，亡羊補牢猶未晚矣。但我們看到民進黨政府，現在的政府跟這個三層次完全沒有關係，因為現在民進黨政府不只是沒有這三個層次，還背道而馳，跟臺灣的主流民意對幹。","上個禮拜，也就是這個禮拜，經濟部、教育部突然間都讓國人完全譁然，一下子經濟部長說要在菲律賓種電，一下子教育部提出青年服勤同意書，還要家長簽名蓋章，我們要問，民進黨政府不要越活越回去！","2023（去）年2月的時候，當時國防部預告修全民動員防衛法，就已經讓國人擔憂，認為是不是會有所謂青年上戰場的疑慮？不到1個月的時間，國防部不敢修相關的法令，教育部當時服勤同意書也就悄悄下架。沒想到選舉選完了，現在教育部又再推出青年服勤同意書。沒錯，昨天說因為引起譁然，所以又再中止這樣的政策。但我們真的要問的是，核心問題是什麼？沒有修過的法令，你們持續照走相關流程，這根本就是完全藐視立法的行為以及立法的程序！","再者，要用服勤同意書可以，先請綠營高官們的子女都先簽下同意書，或者是請你們有在海外的那些子女、有拿綠卡的、有生活其他國家的，都先回來一起保衛臺灣這塊土地嘛！不要「別人的孩子死不完」！","再來，菲律賓種電，把電脈交在別人的手上，用數百公里的電纜或是運輸船來運輸，這樣子真的符合我們的經濟效益、真的符合我們國家安全嗎？不要再說你是誤闖政治叢林的小白兔，根本就是一個政治小白！","拜託官員們，好好了解現在的民意，主流民意，掌握方向，執政不是家家酒，已經上任快半年了，不要搞這種兒戲的把戲了！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言。","接下來請登記第5號陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳春城","羅智強","許宇甄","洪孟楷","陳菁徽"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1138101_00011"}}},{"id":"155751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc02179f6d8b93030fc9e55eba687ce68b1b09901d85e9659c99eda8bbdb5b55d1651485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:07:03 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臺電董事長也證實臺灣北部缺200億度電。"},{"start":168.716,"end":178.558,"text":"現在最大的問題是民進黨的意識形態作祟不願調整錯誤的能源政策導致臺電公司在113年編列了1286億購買235億度電114年編列1546億元購買286億度電臺電虧損連連只能調整電價補虧推損全國民眾只能幫民進黨錯誤的政策"},{"start":200.099,"end":203.583,"text":"謝謝許宇甄委員的發言。接下來請登記第4號,洪孟楷委員發言。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":14,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時7分）經濟部長郭智輝突然提出海外要蓋太陽能光電廠，透過海底電纜或船運方式將綠電送回臺灣，天馬行空的奇想讓全國震驚，大家都在問，為什麼郭智輝部長會突如其來地拋出在菲律賓蓋電廠買綠電的議題？","今年6月17號雲豹公司宣布要在菲律賓蓋太陽能光電廠，並在9月24日向經濟部投審司遞件，目前只差部分文件漏章，補件完成就可以完成備查，這種速度跟預判的能力似有神力加持，令人佩服不已。國人都在問，為什麼綠友友總能超前部署，經濟部是綠友友圖利部嗎？為什麼只有「綠能」，你我都不能？","行政程序法第六條規定的清清楚楚，行政行為非有正當理由，不得為差別待遇。但我們可以看到，從民進黨執政後，經濟部為綠友友開了各種方便大門，從臺南、屏東的光電案再到桃園的SRF案，都有經濟部圖利特定人的疑慮，檢調系統迄今沒有積極的查辦，這對奉公守法的民眾極為不公平，難道民進黨政府只為特定人服務，只會圖利自己人嗎？","郭智輝部長沒有經過通盤考量就拋出要在菲律賓蓋電廠，300公里電纜電力傳送回臺灣的損耗高達33%，高額的成本誰要負擔？1度電的成本是多少？預備賣給民眾多少？還是要由台電躉購？巴士海峽蓋海底電纜可能面臨的主權爭議要怎麼解決？未來的電價還要漲多少？這些問題郭智輝部長都沒有談！10月16號雲豹公司的股價一開盤就從216元漲到225元，郭部長的這種操作不禁讓人懷疑是在圖利特定人。","臺灣目前沒有足夠的土地可以蓋光電，民進黨政府又不要核電，郭部長只能著急的宣布在菲律賓蓋光電廠，這無心之舉正好說明了臺灣的電不夠，民進黨說臺灣不缺電，實際上卻是缺電缺很大！台電董事長也證實臺灣北部缺200億度電，現在最大的問題是民進黨的意識形態作祟，不願調整錯誤的能源政策，導致台電公司在113年編列1,286億元購買235億度電、114年編列1,546億元購買286億度電。台電虧損連連只能調整電價補足虧損，全國民眾只能幫民進黨錯誤的政策買單！"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的發言。","接下來請登記第4號洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳春城","羅智強","許宇甄","洪孟楷","陳菁徽"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1138101_00011"}}},{"id":"155750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc0217957b0f6db4502f5c6eba687ce68b1b09901d85e9659c99eda388debce7e7cfb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:03:38 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如果變更的話,就要裁罰19.2億元的違約賠償,另外加上不再給你短購的電價。"},{"start":162.293,"end":184.847,"text":"5點8點等過電價砍到剩2點13元的迴避成本就給你原來該給的不給你所謂的高昂的利益算起來3塊多的所謂的價差乘以5年的經營加上22億度的發電高達400億就是這樣子就被空手套牌套空了"},{"start":185.951,"end":198.148,"text":"這是為什麼今天台電一直虧損經濟部一直在縱容空手套牌郎謝謝大家謝謝羅智強委員的發言接下來請登記第三號徐宇貞委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":11,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時3分）你知道台電為什麼幾千億、幾千億一直虧損，像個無底洞一樣？一旦虧損，就要求國庫撥補；撥了3,000億不夠，又要再撥1,000億！你敢不撥補，他就給你漲電價！為什麼台電就像個無底洞一樣，一直虧、一直虧呢？我幫大家找到原因了。因為臺灣有一群白狼族不斷空手套白狼，從台電套去了大筆、大筆、幾百億、幾百億的利益，然後台電坐視不理。昨天我開了一場記者會，舉發經濟部縱容白狼族空手套白狼！在2017年時，有一家公司叫達德，它獲得經濟部允許用百分之百獨資取得允能風場的經營，當時經濟部就怕會變成是一場套利的金錢遊戲，所以規定限制如果發起的廠商以後要釋股，不可以釋股到50%以下，為什麼呢？因為政府給這些風場的價格是非常高昂的，台電用躉購電價是非常高昂的，有幾百億利益在裡面，不讓它變成套利的遊戲。但是5年的時間，你知道達德做了什麼事情嗎？它從100%變成73%、變成48%、變成25%、變成0%，成功的脫手了，完美的空手套白狼了。按照經濟部在它的釋股會議中的要求，曾經一度覺得事態嚴重，要求不可以再次釋股、不可以再變更，如果變更的話，就要裁罰19.2億元的違約賠償，另外加上不再給躉購的電價，5.8元的躉購電價砍到剩2.13元的迴避成本，也就是給你原來該給的，不給你所謂高昂的利益。算起來，三塊多的所謂價差乘以5年經營，加上22億度的發電，高達400億，就是這樣子被空手套白狼的套空了，這就是為什麼今天台電一直在虧損，因為經濟部一直在縱容空手套白狼！謝謝大家。"],["主席：接下來請登記第3號許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳春城","羅智強","許宇甄","洪孟楷","陳菁徽"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1138101_00011"}}},{"id":"155749","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155749","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20d10e24efc02179685726386a8f2a92eba687ce68b1b09901d85e9659c99edab1730338a11065015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"09:00:26 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證實了少子高齡化社會已經定型,而且是不可逆轉的局勢。"},{"start":38.703,"end":51.672,"text":"到了2025年,明年在兩個多月,臺灣一半的人口將超過45歲,壯世代成為勞動的主力。 到了2070年,我國15到64歲的人口數將降為697萬人,同樣的65歲上的人也佔697萬人。"},{"start":65.066,"end":66.027,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":92.677,"end":118.702,"text":"那壯世代是一場社會的覺醒運動,我在民間推動個人的覺醒, 逐漸的取代老人跟因法族,也逐漸成為輿論的主流。這一年來進入國會推動政府的覺醒, 我要感謝過去陪同走過這條路的人,特別是在立法院由63位跨黨派的立委, 240位的專家所組成的壯促會。"},{"start":122.063,"end":138.988,"text":"還有感謝卓院長允諾成立了行政院的壯士代跨部會小組,還有陳時中政務委領導的13個部會,一起來推動壯士代,特別是勞動部推動壯士代重返至常不遺餘力。"},{"start":140.268,"end":165.038,"text":"所以最後我要拜託卓院長這個是國家興亡的信念這個一定要超越黨派的惡鬥以昌生為念所以拜託卓院長全力的來支持行政院壯世代政策辦公室的成立以及拜託韓院長在立法院推動壯世代政策與產業發展促進法的立法工作當中能夠給予大力的支持"},{"start":165.738,"end":167.959,"text":"謝謝吳春城委員的發言。接下來請登記第二號,羅志強委員發言。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（9時）卓院長好。今天主要來跟行政院溝通。","國發會昨天公布延遲兩個月的人口推估報告，證實少子高齡化社會已經定型，而且是不可逆轉的局勢。到了2025年（明年），再兩個多月，臺灣一半的人口將超過45歲，壯世代成為勞動主力；到了2070年，我國15到64歲的人口數將降為697萬人，同樣的65歲以上的人也占697萬人，與青壯年、壯世代人口相當，所以混齡經濟定型、高齡社會定型，這是昨天這份報告中很重要的兩個訊息，也證實翻轉700萬壯世代是成為國家發展動力唯一的出路。","壯世代是一場社會覺醒運動，我在民間推動個人的覺醒，逐漸取代老人跟銀髮族，也逐漸成為輿論主流。這一年來更進入國會推動政府的覺醒，我要感謝過去陪同走過這條路的人，特別是在立法院由63位跨黨派立委、240位專家所組成的壯促會；也感謝卓院長允諾，成立行政院跨壯世代跨部會小組，陳時中政委領導13個部會一起來推動壯世代，特別是勞動部推動壯世代重返職場非常不遺餘力。","最後我要拜託卓院長，這是國家興亡的信念，一定要超越黨派惡鬥，以蒼生為念。拜託卓院長全力來支持行政院壯世代政策辦公室的成立，並拜託韓院長在立法院推動壯世代政策與產業發展促進法立法工作當中，能給予大力支持。希望在臺灣正式進入超高齡社會元年的時候，我們兩院能夠一起送給全民這份大禮物，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員的發言。","接下來請登記第2號羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳春城","羅智強","許宇甄","洪孟楷","陳菁徽"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1138101_00011"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}