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等一下我們再進入我們的朝野協商見"},{"start":2000.726,"end":2023.179,"text":"跟各位黨編報告一下因為我們這個會期是預算會期當然除了處理明年度的114年的總預算還有足跡行政院所送來這個前瞻預算還有這個追加預算就今天我們要討論的這個預算的案題目之外我們還有一個今年度的113年度的附屬單位預算因為在今年的"},{"start":2024.259,"end":2042.796,"text":"5月初的時候才把這個各組的報告回到院會宣讀完那時候因為剛好遇到整個內閣改組新的行政院長左院長來了所以我們又開始進行左院長的那個第一會期的施政諮詢所以一直牽連到現在那因為這個預算會期"},{"start":2044.457,"end":2059.147,"text":"我們就要把這個113年的復屬單位去完成他的審議的過程那過去復屬單位的話我們都會回到院會之後呢就訂個時間大概是一個禮拜到十天讓各黨團委員針對這個復屬單位預算去提案"},{"start":2063.29,"end":2090.923,"text":"提案送到裁委會去整理整理好之後再拿給各黨團還有相關部會去參考各部會會去跟提案的黨團委員去做溝通溝通到一定程度之後我們院長就會開始針對附屬單位來進行密集協商密集協商通常都是連續好幾天的一個朝野協商我們這邊有一個草稿請同仁先給各黨邊做參考原則上我們是說"},{"start":2092.023,"end":2118.441,"text":"到10月30號作為提案的截止時間因為今天是21號所以給9天的時間讓各黨團來提看大家針對這個提案時間是不是充足是不是夠然後呢提案完之後呢交給財委會去做整理那我們給他兩天的時間也就是說他在10月31跟11月1號去做整理整理好之後呢給各黨團看也給部會看然後部會拿到那些提案呢會來跟各黨團做雙向溝通"},{"start":2120.422,"end":2143.837,"text":"沟通到一定程度的時候呢院長會指定密集協商的時間所以這個草稿的部分呢我們請院長唸一下然後大家看一下如果可以的話我們看要修改還是就直接要簽字都可以那我們請院長宣讀一下這個草稿好謝謝各位黨團幹部因為我們這個附屬單位預算我們還是要盡快盡早的我們開始審查"},{"start":2146.339,"end":2166.65,"text":"我們現在黨團幹部先稍待一下我們只有兩樣決定事項一、各黨團10月30日星期三下午5點前將《113年度中央政府總預算案．附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分之提案》送至財政委員會會診預時不再受案"},{"start":2167.355,"end":2194.441,"text":"二、財政委員會收案之後﹐交各該委員會整理復印相關提案後﹐於11月1日星期五下午5點之前﹐提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考﹐請行政部門先後向提案委員及黨團進行雙向說明﹐落實溝通﹐以利後續進行密集協商只有這兩點﹐各位黨團幹部有意見要﹐好,請黃國昌總召請"},{"start":2197.753,"end":2222.882,"text":"謝謝院長我就是為了辦法避免誤會可能有一些背景要說明清楚剛剛院長所那個也很感謝院長去承擔你不應該承擔的東西為什麼說院長承擔你你不應該承擔的東西113年附屬單位預算這個是上一屆國會本來在去年就應該要處理完畢的事嗎"},{"start":2224.471,"end":2253.428,"text":"但目前都還沒有處理完嘛所以才會交給新的國會來處理嘛這個我覺得第一個前提啊要先把它講清楚113年附屬單位預算上一屆的國會該處理沒有處理那我相信他們該花的錢到今年現在已經幾月了十月了嘛該花的錢也都花的差不多嘛那我相信這些附屬單位也沒有因此而停擺嘛"},{"start":2254.349,"end":2275.683,"text":"都還是正常的在運作嘛這個是第二件事情那第三件事情上一屆國會該處理的附屬單位預算沒有處理完那我們這屆國會沒有辦法遇到這樣的狀況要把它承擔下來要處理也沒有問題他只不過說就是說因為今天是幾號"},{"start":2277.734,"end":2306.994,"text":"今天是21號那壓30天以前要黨團再提案出來時間上是不是有這麼趕可不可以給黨團再多一點點時間是不是可以請那個院長看一下時程以後再採視一下因為等於是上一屆國會該處理而沒有處理完的事情到今年10月底的時候突然要各個黨團在10月底以前把案子"},{"start":2307.914,"end":2329.075,"text":"送出來這個時間上面是不是有要好好審預算還是只是這個其實過個水意思意思我覺得這個可能也會影響到社會大眾對立法院在審附屬單位預算的時候到底是認真在審還是在半加加久只是過個水可能會有一些"},{"start":2330.516,"end":2351.007,"text":"觀感上面的問題那最後一個我只是要確認就是說因為附屬單位預算有很多是上一屆國會的委員他們所提出來的一些案子那新的國會那些舊的案子是不是就不處理了完全以黨團所提出的新案來當作處理的基準要合在一起處理"},{"start":2352.657,"end":2373.475,"text":"OK 好好好好那就時間上啦齁我們都尊重院長這邊時程上的安排我只是說有沒有可能再多一點點時間如果院長覺得沒有辦法就10月底以前一定要處理那我們也就盡量配合尊重院長才藝術 嘿 好謝謝國務長總召發言接下來吳思堯幹事長請發言"},{"start":2377.186,"end":2401.121,"text":"謝謝主席我非常同意要把今天處理的這個案子謝謝院長先排定了就是113年的就是附屬單位的預算就是營業跟非營業部分那其實到底要講清楚說明白確實每一屆每一年的預算都是要在法定期程就是年底完成但是呢每一屆每一年都會優先審議公務預算"},{"start":2403.442,"end":2407.928,"text":"然後讓附屬單位的預算是隔一個新年之後的"},{"start":2409.382,"end":2438.414,"text":"單數會期來處理當然餘法這樣盡量不要可是從以前到現在像斯民委員很有經驗也點頭從以前到現在也都是這樣要導正很好我們這一屆來做示範都要導正這也就應驗了我們現在必須即刻來審查114年度的總預算如果民眾黨委員認為這為什麼這一屆要承擔上一屆沒有該盡的義務我們來承擔那我們也不能把自己又"},{"start":2439.565,"end":2439.885,"text":"現任國會每黨都有責任"},{"start":2468.686,"end":2495.809,"text":"每一黨都有責任而現在國會的多數黨是國民黨跟民眾黨的委員所以道理要釐清清楚所以回來我們身為立法委員就應當盡量在法定期程完成預算的審議從這個議案為什麼拖到現在才要排就可以再次驗證我們的114年的總預算不能再拖了"},{"start":2496.63,"end":2523.876,"text":"不能再拖了不能再重蹈覆轍了所以也謝謝院長剛剛國常總召說您承擔了上一屆遺留下來了承擔您不應承擔的那也您委屈了但是院長該承擔的責任是現在您的責任就是現在送在我們桌子上的114年的國家政府總預算案這就是院長要承擔我們三黨都要承擔的所以我們也同意說趕快來排審那這個期程"},{"start":2525.836,"end":2526.336,"text":"謝謝吳思耀幹事長 接下來請王宏威首席副書長請發言"},{"start":2547.995,"end":2548.015,"text":"黃國昌議員"},{"start":2568.948,"end":2596.883,"text":"113年國營事業及附屬單位預算到現在為止立法院沒有進行審查那麼我們沒有任何一家國營事業因此而關門也沒有任何一家國營事業因此而不發薪水所以這也就是其實印證了那麼現在講的很多的事情其實是違反預算的一個常態運作我想這樣的一個原則必先一定要先講清楚"},{"start":2597.823,"end":2602.166,"text":"第二部分按照慣例雖然拖過12月31日去年12月31日應該要把國際事業預算審完然後到了隔年應該在上個會期來做審查不過因為我也都在財委會財委會有兩位召委民進黨也有郭國文委員"},{"start":2626.479,"end":2628.92,"text":"財委會也沒有看到郭國文召委去排案我覺得這一點 剛才講說各政黨都有責任但是我覺得是不是我們吳斯堯幹事長把這個責任好像又把他甩鍋到了在野黨"},{"start":2655.026,"end":2661.409,"text":"也就是如果你覺得預算很重要為什麼民進黨當召委的財委會沒有去排案呢還要延到我們到這個會期來做處理這是第二個第三個就是說那麼我們也願意做處理其實我們對於預算都是非常非常善意的"},{"start":2676.036,"end":2680.077,"text":"我們也願意來積極的審查我也在講說其實我們作為在野黨我們最想審預算因為不審預算沒有辦法去刪除這些浮邊亂邊的 爛邊的預算所以有關於剛才我們所提到的是不是在10月30號之前下午點之前交到財委會會診"},{"start":2701.821,"end":2728.801,"text":"因為這時間確實有一些些趕是不是能夠卓宇再延長個幾天我想我們也大家都很願意配合大家一起來審查預算但是也給我們相關的委員們一個足夠的時間讓他們來做一些審視這樣的預算審查應該會更周延以上謝謝謝謝王慧雲的發言哈吾斯委員請繼續二輪發言"},{"start":2732.642,"end":2756.111,"text":"謝謝我想要補充說明我們同意趕快來撥破榜把之前該寫的作業各黨沒有交沒有寫我們大家趕快來處理它也希望未來不要再發生預算該審而沒有審的狀況但是剛剛有委員提到說你看上個會期或者是上一屆該審的那沒有審那你看這個國營市也沒有倒也沒有關門"},{"start":2757.435,"end":2779.551,"text":"因為預算法的授權跟規定是不一樣的預算法第54條對於總預算如果不能依其完成的補救辦法有所明定會影響到的就非常清楚我們已經講了非常久的對於新興資本支出跟新增計畫是完全受影響所以今年如果沒有"},{"start":2780.311,"end":2808.9,"text":"明年114年的國家政府總預算這些受影響的新興基本的新增計畫就高達2050億這對於國家政府照顧人民很多重要的新興建設當然有影響那國營事業為什麼相對看起來每一屆都會拖過法定期程的下一個會期再來審議呢那確實是過去到現在立委都有這樣子不太好的習慣就沒有一併在法定期程完成"},{"start":2810.06,"end":2838.741,"text":"所以會有這樣事後再來補作業、寫作業是依據剛剛預算法54條有講到的國營事業的部分可以依預算法88條的規定來辦理大家可以看看預算法88條它確實賦予了國營事業這些附屬單位相對於公務機關更寬鬆的彈性它可以先行做一些支用跟調整但這都不應該"},{"start":2839.895,"end":2858.609,"text":"我要再次強調該審預算．法定期程．立法委員．不分黨派都要去善盡我們的責任都不應該．不應當再繼續發生所以回過頭來我們現在播啪啪把上一屆沒有寫的作業或者是上一屆沒寫的作業延到上個會期我們就該寫了大家都沒有寫那這個會期趕快來補"},{"start":2860.67,"end":2886.048,"text":"現在在我們眼前的作業今年度的作業就是要審四大預算114年的公務預算還有前瞻預算還有台電的追加減預算還有114年度的國營失業的預算不要再重蹈覆轍該審就審審預算是立法委員的職責沒有誰甩過誰如果我們都不審才是我們對於人民沒有辦法交代"},{"start":2888.222,"end":2910.608,"text":"謝謝吳世耀委員二人發言那綜合剛才幾位黨團的發言我想我們把這兩點結論的時間做個小小的調整就是各黨團本來我第一次念是10月30號星期三下午點前改為各黨團於10月6號星期三下午點前我們加七天的時間加113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":2912.448,"end":2939.426,"text":"按附屬單位預算．營業及非營業部分．送至財政委員會那這樣的話請問一下三位黨團有沒有其他的寶貴意見好OKOKOK好第二個的話財政委員會收案之後那各該委員會整理復印相關提案後於11月8號下午5點前提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考"},{"start":2941.15,"end":2958.705,"text":"請行政部門先行向天安委及黨團進行雙向說明我們延到11月8號好不好好那我們先把這個先確定好好謝謝OK好請各位黨團幹部麻煩一下大家簽個字"},{"start":2968.502,"end":2986.438,"text":"現在我們進行繼續研商有關:「114年度中央政府總預算．含附屬單位預算．綜計表．營業及非營業部分．中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算．113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案．民進黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2988.462,"end":3004.849,"text":"那現在我們正式進入我們今天下午協商的主題我們先請提案的委員民進黨黨團蔡易瑜幹事長請發言謝謝院長我是書記長幹事長是施耀我想我們在討論114年的中央政府總預算"},{"start":3015.578,"end":3036.431,"text":"那當然這個總預算我們知道以現在今天已經是10月21號所以這樣推算起來我們只剩下兩個月再加10天的時間可以在今年度來討論總預算所以我們還要再計算副委那副委後到各個委員會然後再排審"},{"start":3038.792,"end":3060.325,"text":"後面的時間已經壓縮到幾乎是最緊繃的狀態了所以我還是會覺得說今天協商然後有一個好的方向也就是不管是國民黨或者是民眾黨不要把這三個事情跟總預算完全把它連起來"},{"start":3061.298,"end":3070.524,"text":"那事實上我們在討論了這一個進法補償的時候我們也不斷的去跟在野黨的兩個政黨我們去強調"},{"start":3074.439,"end":3100.051,"text":"憲法權力分立事實上這個權力分立他所接觸的一個精神就在4至391號他講的很清楚391號裡面不斷的去揭示說因為行政行政他就必須要有承擔政策的成敗如果我們的這個立法的一個作為勒他導致政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以建立"},{"start":3101.084,"end":3116.233,"text":"尚非憲法之所許他這個文字上就講得很清楚就是說行政機關編列預算所以預算的執行會有好也有壞如果好的話人民會行政機關怕破啊"},{"start":3116.986,"end":3143.224,"text":"如果執行的不好自然行政機關要擔負執行的效率不好或執行的成效不佳要擔負這樣的責任這就是責任政治的一個最基礎的ABC那我們這一次之所以在進法補償的這個課題內那我們會有所堅持就是說因為在不管我們去看預算法我們去看財政紀律法甚至我們去看這個"},{"start":3145.786,"end":3165.065,"text":"財政收支的劃分法事實上這三個法律裡面它都是涵蓋著憲法第70條立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之提議那不得為這個增加之提議的不管是在預算案裡面不得增加你也不可以用法律案然後來"},{"start":3168.307,"end":3183.273,"text":"來頓入法律案裡面然後一樣是去對於行政機關的預算有所為增加之提議所以你來看不管是我剛講的預算法91條或者是財政紀律法第5條或者剛剛的財政"},{"start":3185.654,"end":3210.359,"text":"這個財政收支劃分法的38之一 它都有一個很重要的就是說 領地法委員所提的法律案你增加政府的支出 增加政府稅出或減少稅入者你就應先指明彌補資金之來源 這個是在財政紀律法的文字那在預算法的文字裡 它是說 你要增加政府的支出的時候"},{"start":3211.039,"end":3238.838,"text":"你應先徵詢行政院的意見指明資金之來源所以重點都要指明資金來源我們再看一下財政收支劃分法38之一那38之一內我們知道各級政府立法機關定定法律需增加財政負擔者應先事先籌措經費或於立法時明文規定相對收入來源"},{"start":3240.436,"end":3266.096,"text":"所以這個文字上都是記載的這樣所以我們在講到進法補償的時候我們就會說因為這個部分行政機關他是沒有同意這個6萬那現在行政機關願意編列4萬卓院長也說願意編列4萬剩餘的部分是不是可以用基金這邊大家再來討論那這也是一個要籌措裁員的一個方式"},{"start":3267.408,"end":3275.752,"text":"但是現在看起來不管是國民黨或者是民眾黨這邊對於我們這樣提出我們希望解決問題讓總預算趕快進入討論我們這樣提出的這樣一個對岸那看起來"},{"start":3282.995,"end":3301.488,"text":"在野黨不買單這個不買單的一個結果就是我們的總預算將在這邊那我覺得這個將在這邊實在不是一件好的狀況我是覺得說我們是要解決問題嘛我們這一次我們把這個進法補償做了一個處理之後我們未來讓它進入法制化"},{"start":3302.108,"end":3331.207,"text":"所謂這個法制化我想不管是涉及老人的福利的一個津貼或者是農民的津貼他們現在都是法制化每4年隨著CPI隨著指數來4年檢討一次所以我們也是希望說這個禁法補償現在條文也有法制化那我們就讓它進入法制化未來照著整個符合財政紀律法的一個精神之下然後讓這個禁法補償原住民都可以得到他應該要有的一個補償"},{"start":3332.648,"end":3352.459,"text":"以上是我的一個建議謝謝蔡玉瑜書記長國民黨團跟臺灣民眾黨團要不要一輪發言之後我們請主席講說明主席講說明之後再請原住民列席的委員講話好不好那國民黨團請林思明書記長謝謝我們院長今天聽到我們蔡玉瑜書記長的一個提議我想"},{"start":3360.106,"end":3375.781,"text":"蔡書長你的意思就是很明確就是說現在行政院就是供預算編列為4萬塊然後另外的2萬塊就是由基金裡面去支應再找裁員到現在還沒找到"},{"start":3379.001,"end":3391.1,"text":"我想我們一個重點就是說這個《進法補償條例》它是誰提案的因為這跟過去很不一樣這是由兩位民進黨的委員提案"},{"start":3391.96,"end":3418.512,"text":"那行政院對於這個法案的當初整個我們三讀通過那我們看到不管是前委員或吳立豪委員他都說他有跟他們民進黨黨團報告也有跟行政院做多次的溝通所以行政院對於是不是這個條例把他提升到這個一倍到6萬塊行政院完全了若指掌啊你都知道的所以在知道情況之下讓這個"},{"start":3420.186,"end":3444.409,"text":"法案的財務來源你應該提早,及早你就應該知道說你要編在哪裡了你就已經心知肚明了嘛你不能等到三讀通過之後你才告訴我們說你也沒提復議那三讀也沒有提其他的一個動作你才去擋你才在預算你不去編說我只能編到4塊錢我想這很說不過去"},{"start":3445.39,"end":3471.547,"text":"那我最後我是聽到議員講說你們認為這個法制化你們也同意現在進法補償條例讓它法制化跟過去一樣過去好多好多件也是我們不管是老人這個福利津貼這部分我們都是經過立法然後才去編列這個相關的預算讓它法制化所以法制化這件事情大家是沒有意見的沒有意見那既然沒有意見我們認為說那你的預算要怎麼編我想"},{"start":3473.07,"end":3473.73,"text":"臺灣民眾黨發言陳主席長請準備"},{"start":3504.762,"end":3521.037,"text":"謝謝院長其實協商那麼多次啦今天再來協商我們坐在這邊基本上是要解決問題啦不是把之前全部講的話再重新講一次沒有意思啦我的表達我的立場是要解決問題不是要來吵架的"},{"start":3522.038,"end":3541.51,"text":"所以我簡短的講對於剛剛參與委員發言的內容我竟表不同意我接下來就審略非常多次我上次全部都講完了4.391在處理什麼預算案跟法律案有什麼不一樣你要提到說法治化現在就法治化啦"},{"start":3542.714,"end":3569.934,"text":"現在就法治化啦阿你怎麼一方面主張法治化一方面又主張現在的條文是違憲的更何況這違憲的條文還是你們民主進步黨的立委所提出來的欸一堆民進黨的立委全部都連署欸阿你們當初提案的時候怎麼不大喊說不要提這個阿這個違憲阿這個不能提阿等到提出來了以後三讀通過了現在翻桌喔不想認帳阿"},{"start":3572.048,"end":3583.079,"text":"不好意思這樣子的論述我們沒辦法接受但為了要節省時間期間我接下來的話就不要再講了那具體的來講其實今天要來協商是要看我們的行政部門"},{"start":3584.517,"end":3603.882,"text":"到底提什麼東西出來因為我們對於昨天卓榮泰院長在臉書上面發文說去餐廳點餐其實我看的是蠻傻眼的啦因為我當初知道院長是基於一片善意所以我們人都去了嘛只是搞了一個多小時什麼具體的內容都沒有談"},{"start":3605.523,"end":3625.204,"text":"然後結果連後續的臉書發文都在講餐廳點餐的事情不要一天到晚想吃飯的事情我們解決問題會比較重要所以我今天是來聽我的行政部門他們所提出來的具體的建議是什麼因為我還是要回來台灣是一個法治國"},{"start":3626.684,"end":3644.707,"text":"原住民依照立法院三讀通過的法律針對他們的特別犧牲向國家請求補償的時候他公法上的請求權就是一公頃6萬元絕對不是像行政院院長用喊價的一公頃不可能是4萬元"},{"start":3645.848,"end":3662.717,"text":"法條上面就寫6萬元公法上的請求權依照法律行使怎麼可能是我們在這邊喊價就去影響大人民依照三讀通過生效的法律他在公法上面的請求權的數額跟他的內容這是絕對不可能的事情"},{"start":3663.797,"end":3684.593,"text":"要審預算的這件事情就立法委員的責任沒有問題但把預算編好這是行政部門的責任所以我還是希望今天大家不要坐在這邊再繼續在那邊做政治上面的攻防各自有什麼話想講回去開記者會沒有問題我是希望今天的協商"},{"start":3686.195,"end":3711.496,"text":"看行政部門有具體的提案出來問題要怎麼解決這最重要我相信這也是韓院長當初苦心的招集三個黨團幫卓榮泰出來邀約希望能夠把問題解決最大的出發點跟用意謝謝兩位原住民的委員請稍微等一下我們先請行政院主計長來請陳主計長請"},{"start":3718.123,"end":3727.915,"text":"委員長、秘書長、各黨團委員、同仁大家午安我這裡針對這個案子因為進化補償這個方案原理會在114年度有盡力編列進化補償28億元"},{"start":3738.206,"end":3756.718,"text":"113年他增加7億也就是有達34%那本案如果黨團的一個協商或是結論那這個部分將來原民會要執行這個部分如果有經費不敷的部分我們本總處就全力來協助辦理以上一個說明"},{"start":3761.755,"end":3775.345,"text":"主席長您可不可以再說一下因為第一個他原來預算如果可以支應不管是從總預算來支應還是由基金來支應將來這個經會有不敷的部分我們在115年度來協助來補充以上"},{"start":3786.431,"end":3805.203,"text":"因為這個還必須要看那個袁明慧他本身那個總預算的一個編列其實他基建的情形可以容納的一個程度他如果全數可以容納這個部分有必須要將來需要再做補充的意思這個部分我們再來協助他補充"},{"start":3814.451,"end":3819.777,"text":"我想我們私底下我們要不要討論一下好不好我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":4686.562,"end":4712.559,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部請坐行政部門各位列席首長請坐那綜合我們吳思瑤幹事長發言 高金樹委員請準備"},{"start":4715.815,"end":4740.918,"text":"謝謝院長剛剛休息時間其實大家很想方設法一起來找出可以解的答案可以解的方向那我不知道是不是還能夠說服有機會說服再次說明如果說因為今天週一那明天成委會又要排週五的院會的預算能不能夠列入案子"},{"start":4741.687,"end":4770.373,"text":"如果今天再沒有共識不管是明天的成委會或是週五的院會都可能讓總預算繼續被阻擋附位審查可能就是第6次我上一次協商已經非常清楚的跟各位報告從以前到現在每個會期總預算會因應那個會期開始朝野的氣氛或是有其他的個案會有一些耽擱但從來沒有拖過第二次會第三次會如果我們再不決定"},{"start":4771.533,"end":4795.755,"text":"大家再不妥協就是第6次黨下總預算這個就是史上的惡例那行政部門跟執政黨團最想要去突破的也是我們一直認為萬萬不可的那個結在哪裡就是我們希望立法部門不要用立法的方式來增加政府預算之支出"},{"start":4796.716,"end":4804.811,"text":"如果要經過立法這方式來增加政府預算支支出他必須回到預算法91條他是跟行政部門徵詢"},{"start":4807.747,"end":4827.636,"text":"討論有共識就如同老農津貼在2011年或2055、2005年曾經由立委先提案但是行政部門後續他也認同了他也提出對案經過行政立法對於某一個支出都合意要增加的狀況之下來進行"},{"start":4829.75,"end":4830.07,"text":"修法"},{"start":4846.523,"end":4866.201,"text":"現在變3萬變6萬這個過程大家都很清楚的知道也許在野黨的同仁們很想替原住民族增加3到6萬我們也可以理解可是行政部門希望法律上真的行政部門認為這樣就是侵犯了行政權編列預算"},{"start":4867.972,"end":4869.894,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4888.891,"end":4910.558,"text":"高於當初大家原始的設定那我們能不能夠來修法的部分大家有共識跟行政部門磋商把法律本身回到一個合憲行政權的預算編列權沒有被立法權因為立委單一的修法而凌駕而取代"},{"start":4912.055,"end":4934.356,"text":"這個事行政部門一直在堅持的合法合憲的解決那如果這個部分大家有共識那當然已經大家爭取了這麼久的好114年度的6萬塊那行政部門可以去想方設法用什麼方式來做這個當初在修法過程可能是"},{"start":4935.742,"end":4935.842,"text":"主席"},{"start":4954.36,"end":4954.58,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4977.811,"end":4977.971,"text":"主席"},{"start":4998.265,"end":5015.33,"text":"這當中還有時間大家可以智慧解決我們今天站在這裡就是希望總預算可以朝野同意讓他交付審查只要交付審查未來在審查原民會的預算的時候委員要做什麼樣的權宜主張都可以"},{"start":5016.485,"end":5037.508,"text":"只要交付審查﹖很多對於有其他的公糧收購﹖或者是健保點子﹖都可以透過行使預算的審查權﹖去要求行政部門再做說明﹖再做調整﹖只要讓預算交付審查﹖如果今天再沒有結論﹖就是第6檔了"},{"start":5038.908,"end":5039.228,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5056.127,"end":5075.561,"text":"立法委員真的切莫以修法來增加政府預算沒有跟政府預算這個都不用再講財政制度法、預算法、憲法70條財政收支劃分法都講得再清楚也不過了所以我最終一句這句話也許大家很不想聽可是我們都要面對"},{"start":5077.062,"end":5101.33,"text":"立法部門都要行政院依法行政那我們立法委員自己也要依法來修法大家真的各退一步讓總預算往前走吧進法補償是明年9月才要發放的先讓總預算復違吧後續的很多部分大家都是有智慧的其實剛剛也有個復案在院長的腦子裡"},{"start":5102.967,"end":5103.767,"text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長的說明接下來請高金委員請發言"},{"start":5120.45,"end":5136.998,"text":"謝謝院長吳幹事長說得好像很有理可是我覺得真的實在是胡亂講一遍我為什麼說胡亂講一遍呢就是六萬塊是你的吳立華委員跟陳穎委員的提案"},{"start":5138.079,"end":5153.252,"text":"當時你也是連署人為什麼當時就不違憲為什麼當時就沒有違預算法為什麼當時就沒有這些然後不要忘記喔520 卓院長就已經就任了喔5月20號到我們總統6月24號公告已經那麼長的時間你們的預算是8月底送進來"},{"start":5162.981,"end":5189.118,"text":"所以這個當中將近三個月的時間你們可以想方設法這是我要講的第二個請院長再請我們主計長因為剛剛主計長沒有講清楚然後也沒有透過麥克風講到底行政院現在的決議是什麼我才能夠因為剛剛在那邊辯論講了都沒有透過麥克風社會大眾都沒有聽到我是不是可以請主計長來"},{"start":5191.88,"end":5215.332,"text":"說明一下今天行政院端出的誠意到底是什麼東西因為我們今天面對的是行政院提出的方案不是這幾個立法委員或者三長五幹事長在這邊提的東西這個今天我們立法院要面對的是行政院行政院要面對的是立法院在立法院三讀通過的案子"},{"start":5215.592,"end":5215.892,"text":"政經財委員請準備"},{"start":5241.499,"end":5261.632,"text":"主席長就在我們政經事務委員發言完畢之後,麻煩您再次說明,謝謝好,那個,好,那我還是想表達一個事情啦齁,第一件事情是說,其實我想高靖遠很清楚,就像上個會期其實在海洋保育法的時候,我們其實那時候也一起覺得怎麼樣讓原住民族的權利"},{"start":5262.152,"end":5282.768,"text":"其實在修法的過程裡面其實可以更加的完善跟完整其實我一直以來都非常非常支持原住民的權益尤其是計法補償的議題其實涉及到很多這個山坡地的保育的問題所以某個部分來講我自己也很支持在計法補償的這個經費上面應該是要往上增加的這部分就政策的目的跟理念上面我也是支持的"},{"start":5283.348,"end":5305.61,"text":"那經過了幾輪的討論我覺得大家應該可以感到其實執政黨這邊我們是有想盡辦法想要去往大家中間可以接受的部分去邁進的我講一點我們現在完全知道包括在黨的委員不管是國民黨委員、民眾黨委員甚至是高金委員或鄭天才委員其實大家非常非常care的事情其實當然就是希望進法補償的金額"},{"start":5308.598,"end":5319.085,"text":"那因為各種原住民族權利的問題希望能夠往上加尤其是希望加到6萬我們完全理解也聽進去這件事情了"},{"start":5320.322,"end":5347.17,"text":"在聽進去這件事情上面但確實從執政黨團的角度包括行政院角度你們care的事情我們聽進去了但我們care的事情執政黨care的事情包括行政部門尤其care的事情最care的事情其實就是怎麼在立法跟行政的權力分立原則之下找到一個適宜的法治形式跟執行形式這件事情是我們care的事情"},{"start":5348.143,"end":5368.91,"text":"所以我們剛剛一直在想的事情是怎麼把在黨委員們在意的事情最在意核心的事情放到桌上裡面來充分考慮而我們在意的事情也希望在黨委員們可以充分考慮如果我們可以找到一個方式把在黨委員在意的核心的事情充分考慮就好我們在想的是這件事情"},{"start":5374.778,"end":5403.829,"text":"所以坦白說我知道高金委員對於基金的運用的形式或者不一定一定運用基金的形式但我認為現在尤其是行政院他們也是願意去設想怎麼能夠在這個大家希望進法補償基金在網上加的做法可能有A做法B做法C包括剛剛主席長其實有提了幾個做法其實我想大家都聽到包括我們坐在這一排的執政黨的委員執政黨團委員我們也設想去想這件事情可是我們希望說這件事不要"},{"start":5405.421,"end":5416.103,"text":"我不好意思我希望今天我不要講說你好像變成只有一方面一步不讓我們已經在想各種做法了尤其是財務運用的可能性希望能夠把它給打開"},{"start":5417.466,"end":5417.486,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5437.003,"end":5465.606,"text":"我覺得我們是有機會可以往中間走但現在怎麼樣避免也許這個好像一定非得要堅持什麼那我必須說我知道行政部門現在非得他一定堅持他必須要堅持的事情就是預算權是屬於行政權的在權力分立原則之下這條線他不能破他如果一破了這條線以後未來在行政權的各項處理上我說實話今天在黨的朋友你們接下來也有可能會執政啊"},{"start":5467.042,"end":5467.442,"text":"謝謝洪森岸委員的"},{"start":5494.396,"end":5498.817,"text":"人民最期望的就是政府要依法行政而現在的議題依法行政成為原住民族最卑微的訴求"},{"start":5523.188,"end":5552.363,"text":"我先講這個前提這次的進法補償條例的修正民進黨的立委32個人連署提案32個在野黨的只有19個人要提6萬塊的提6萬條例的修正民進黨32人提案在野黨只有19人"},{"start":5554.571,"end":5579.16,"text":"立法院三讀通過之後行政院如果認為有自愛難行可以依憲法的規定來提復議既然行政院沒有提復議就表示沒有自愛難行這是最基本的也經過賴總統公佈的施行"},{"start":5583.632,"end":5608.421,"text":"而這力量到底高不高上個禮拜柯總召講得非常清楚我也很訝異他知道民國82年啊當初台灣省政府我在台灣省政府服務當初用一個要點就是兩萬塊每公頃兩萬塊民國82年經過了三十幾年"},{"start":5614.261,"end":5631.774,"text":"按照物價指數各方面現在用法律規定而且經過總統公布施行6萬塊還不依法行政也不過是增加15億14到15億的一個經費這是第一個第二個105年以前"},{"start":5641.191,"end":5669.296,"text":"進法補償全部都是用公務預算106年開始開始違法挪用嚴肅民族綜合發展基金嚴肅民族綜合發展基金的收支管理應用辦法的法源是嚴肅民族基本法第18條第18條規定的很清楚綜合發展基金就是作為辦理"},{"start":5671.68,"end":5700.036,"text":"嚴肅民族經濟發展的業務作為創業貸款、經濟貸款、微型貸款等等而且根據行政院送來的嚴肅民族綜合發展基金的預算書明確規定它是依預算法第4條第2項第2款第4目凡付出仍可收回的"},{"start":5701.941,"end":5727.351,"text":"這個基金的用途是凡付出仍可收回就像貸款付出期之後本金可以收回來還有利息禁法補償是付出期收不回來的所以從106年開始做了一個違法的挪用之後到112年度總共違法挪用了50幾億"},{"start":5729.887,"end":5756.748,"text":"所以本席當初跟幾位立委提案當時民進黨是基於多數的在立法院也同意這個決議做預算案的主決議這個違反挪用綜合發展基金是違反預算法違反原住民族基本法也做了決議不可以所以"},{"start":5759.069,"end":5776.798,"text":"113年度就是今年度的預算全部都是用公務預算今年度113年度全部都是用公務預算所以114年度沒有編組少了差不多14到15億"},{"start":5780.475,"end":5804.03,"text":"我上次總質詢的時候提到中華民國有窮到第一個要違法挪用原住民祖宗和發展基金嗎第二個有窮到沒有其他方法很多方法很多方法民國100年了立法院民國100年審查12月12月"},{"start":5809.227,"end":5837.386,"text":"2號民國100年12月2號民國100年12月2號立法院做了一個結議要求行政院修正預算書修正預算多少165億行政院3天之內就修正了行政院3天之內修正了做什麼使用呢"},{"start":5838.39,"end":5864.353,"text":"第一個老農津貼國民年金還有其他的福利支出為什麼當初會有這個呢就是因為當初民進黨團提案黃總召提過了民國一百年民進黨團當初提案老農津貼從六千變七千"},{"start":5866.334,"end":5870.337,"text":"行政院沒有徵修通過了所以才會有這個三天內現在我們多久了我們從6月4號我們從6月24號總統公佈施行6月24號到現在很多解決的方式可以修正預算"},{"start":5894.807,"end":5897.989,"text":"謝謝正天堂委員接下來請黃國昌總統請發言然後請陳主委長請準備"},{"start":5918.892,"end":5937.851,"text":"簡短的講就是說我再跟院長報告一次我真的希望大家來這邊是聽行政部門提出解決方案各自上面要怎麼樣去詮釋自己過去的行為要怎麼樣詮釋法律各自回去該記者會沒有必要在這邊長篇大論"},{"start":5939.432,"end":5958.111,"text":"因為如果要這樣子下去的話這個協商會很冗長我們是基於善意我都刻意的不要去講那些過去都已經講過的東西但如果在執政黨堅持要這樣子幹的話那各個黨團我就按照這樣子的規格來進行"},{"start":5960.738,"end":5986.18,"text":"問題通通都不要解決了全部都在講以前全部講過的東西這個是第一個我先講原則性的問題那第二個是我剛剛在休息的時候我聽到一個似乎是解決的方案但當初剛沒有開麥克風我怕我聽漏了還是聽錯了"},{"start":5989.537,"end":6004.511,"text":"那所以等一下麻煩行政部門代表行政部門把話說清楚因為有的時候我搞不清楚就在這邊發言到底是代表誰發言代表行政部門發言還是代表立法部門發言"},{"start":6006.463,"end":6022.678,"text":"我真的有時候搞不清楚還是我們現在立委已經兼任行政官員我真的搞不清楚所以等一下請行政官員說明我剛剛聽的有沒有聽錯因為我們的主計長剛剛第一輪的發言藝術性太高"},{"start":6023.539,"end":6040.367,"text":"我完全聽不懂我剛走出去的時候所有的記者都在問說他講什麼我說全程都有直播大家都可以透過直播去觀看你如果透過直播聽不懂那你的情況跟我一模一樣因為我也聽不懂"},{"start":6041.588,"end":6069.631,"text":"我剛剛在沒有開麥克風的時候我聽到的解決方案我把它摘要一下看是不是我有聽錯我可能有聽錯因為有的時候有一些語言包裝在太藝術的發話當中讓大家不了解其正義那來協商就是要請行政部門提出解決方案因為整件事情我先講台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們的立場很清楚"},{"start":6070.612,"end":6093.199,"text":"就是要解決問題請你依法編列預算依法行政該編的沒有編你要透過修正你要透過增加我們都沒有問題因為在制度上面本來就是行政部門可以做的嘛那但是我剛剛聽到的解決方案是第一個明年一公頃會按照6萬塊發4萬塊來自公務預算"},{"start":6099.535,"end":6127.346,"text":"2萬塊來自基金這個是第一點那第二點基金因此所挪出去的錢到2026年的時候再想辦法用預算補回去這個剛剛是我聽到的第二點那第三點是要求朝野共同承諾要修法明年要修回去每公頃4萬元那我比較震驚的是第三點"},{"start":6128.871,"end":6139.629,"text":"要修法不要修法各個黨團請你依照法律案正式的程序你要提法律案那你就提你的法律修正案嘛我們到委員會討論嘛到院會討論嘛"},{"start":6142.984,"end":6167.092,"text":"那是不是說今天行政部門所提出來的卓龍漢所謂的善意是要求立法部門切結承諾明年要修法修回去每公頃4萬元我們的行政部門才願意依法明年發放6萬元是不是這個意思等一下請行政部門說清楚講明白因為我剛聽到這個proposal的時候我非常的震驚啊"},{"start":6168.174,"end":6190.675,"text":"我們行政部門的解決方案竟然是試圖要今天在黨團協商的時候要求三個黨團竊結明年要把法律修回去卓榮派他心裡面想要的4萬元那否則是怎麼樣否則你們明年就不按照美工請6萬元發放嗎這是卓榮派心裡面想的嗎"},{"start":6193.069,"end":6199.934,"text":"我覺得有必要啦請行政部門把他們的立場說清楚講明白要不然大家根本都不知道現在到底在討論什麼"},{"start":6214.453,"end":6236.409,"text":"謝謝院長再次為了總預算的事來召集協商我想今天跟上個禮拜四的情況大概是一樣在野黨帶著滿滿的誠意來希望看到行政單位能夠有具體的作為能夠依法來執行國民黨團的立場一向都很清楚我們要求就是要依法"},{"start":6237.406,"end":6266.468,"text":"那剛剛聽到這個主計長其實主計長的說法是蠻清楚的他是說預算他這邊是可以配合的我想他剛剛有發言講得很清楚預算他是可以配合的經費是沒有問題的我想今天就是主要是卓院長他整體的態度跟政策我要再次強調原住民不是來這裡求得各位的執政民進黨的施捨"},{"start":6268.223,"end":6292.653,"text":"這是民進黨自己的委員朝野一致所提出的修法案件也經過立法院三讀通過國民黨不斷強調就是一切要依法要依法如果當時實施以後三讀通過以後總統府公告以後如果行政院覺得事案難行他應該依法提出復議案"},{"start":6294.386,"end":6316.425,"text":"而不是在此時此刻來這裡用寒假的方式6萬違憲4萬補違憲然後再挪用基金的錢然後再來補基金然後再修罰轉回4萬塊這真的是天方夜譚本期今天實在不想講話因為聽不到有什麼新的了無新意"},{"start":6318.636,"end":6319.037,"text":"國民黨再強調一次"},{"start":6348.052,"end":6374.045,"text":"一切只要依法,我們就尊重這是立法院正式三讀通過的法律行政院本來就應該依法編列沒有什麼好討價還價的而且我今天要再強調我們一直focus在進法補償因為他們在這塊土地上近千年在台灣這塊土地上我們當然予以尊重"},{"start":6375.302,"end":6385.822,"text":"他們有的自己的原住民的保留地為什麼不能為什麼不能開發因為國家山林的需要要他們進發那進發給他們補助這也是理所當然"},{"start":6389.011,"end":6407.18,"text":"再過來三黨共同簽字的我們全民健保0.952300萬人的健康雖然今天大家沒有提及我還是要再提醒大家一下如果三黨的共識一致簽署的主決議院會也正式通過這是有法律的約束力"},{"start":6409.212,"end":6437.298,"text":"如果今天執政黨要把三黨共同簽字在院會宣讀通過的主決議都當作無效那以後委員會都不用開了委員會的決議就完全無效了不要說院會的主決議啊所以我覺得今天到底是怎樣我們執政者怎麼可以麻煩到這種程度把國會的所有的為人民啊爭取的這個權利全部都廢除了"},{"start":6439.861,"end":6468.824,"text":"再講到農民的辛勞的部分這個簽到這個稻谷收購5塊錢這個也在院會無一通過為什麼這個事情還在這裡不斷的打轉我覺得這個執政者應該要一個基本的誠意要謙卑啊我們更不要講說其他有多少浮邊爛邊的這些預算而且最重要今天的magic word已經講出來了"},{"start":6470.905,"end":6499.407,"text":"主計長已經講錢不是問題預算不是問題這是執政者的一個態度而已本席再強調一下只要依法依規依法依規我也聽到主委院長講人家要釋憲怎麼樣本席不反對你只要是依照正常的法律程序去救濟我們都尊重但是你不能用違法的方式來硬幹硬幹到底這我們不接受"},{"start":6501.229,"end":6501.369,"text":"主席"},{"start":6523.038,"end":6547.437,"text":"其實我的言論也跟剛剛一樣就是說這個部分我們本案如果黨團協商或是結論那原理會依照這個結論來辦理他所需要的一個經費如果有不敷的部分我們全力來協助辦理這樣子那因為方法有很多種他有一些人對這個我們來協助處理就可以了這樣"},{"start":6553.288,"end":6556.09,"text":"主委長有沒有辦法提一些具體的方式"},{"start":6581.506,"end":6589.246,"text":"您可以講一下例如具體的方式有沒有?大家都非常期待您表達一下意見"},{"start":6590.37,"end":6619.8,"text":"第一個就是說如果從基金支我可以以後年度來撥補基金那第二個如果要從動資第二預備金也是可以去支印有幾種方式所以我就說它的方式有很多種那第三個就是說它也可以從總預算優先調整去做支印因為本來支印就是可以做調整那調整支印之後我以後155年再來做補充所以方式有很多種以上"},{"start":6622.509,"end":6648.732,"text":"那高經緯先發言然後請蔡書記長請稍待好來請我們終於聽到行政院有非常明確的說明了我再重複一下認為總預算也可以或者是第二預備金也可以對不對好很好那還有一個就是基金那前面兩個總預算部分和第二預備金那個我就不講了因為那個"},{"start":6650.185,"end":6650.365,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6667.859,"end":6692.053,"text":"就是我們先看一下我今天特別帶來了沒有回去各位委員可以看你們現在原民會送來的綜合發展基金的預算案就114年就在我手上他的第145頁講得非常清楚就是64年這個基金從台灣省政府的時候就有了然後94年左手沿您原住民綜合發展基金的4年計畫這4年計畫包含貸款業務信用保證"},{"start":6697.336,"end":6719.625,"text":"還有補助原住民族部落溫泉投資開發業務沒有講到進法補償這是重點再來就是為了使這個基金相關的作業機制更符合金融機構的操作實施同時也兼顧本會就是原民會推動原住民族的經濟改善"},{"start":6720.946,"end":6740.565,"text":"產業發展還有文化創意還有政策主軸才有這個所謂的基金所以它沒有所謂的進法補償然後還講基金的規類跟屬性是預算法第4條第2項第2款第4目所定的再講一次凡付出仍可收回"},{"start":6741.506,"end":6767.088,"text":"進法補償出去了就不可以收回了這個是明文告訴我們綜合發展基金的使用我們再來看他的第12頁寫什麼呢他有很多的業務收入有投融資的業務徵收依法分配的收入第三個特別寫到其他業務收入這個其他業務收入就是行政院給園民會的預算"},{"start":6769.71,"end":6770.11,"text":"一公頃4萬塊的預算"},{"start":6800.31,"end":6808.194,"text":"4萬塊是公務預算 2萬塊是基金我翻遍了所有的基金預算書沒有2萬塊要來彌補6萬塊不足的部分再來67頁 綜合發展基金114年的負債"},{"start":6822.745,"end":6852.1,"text":"高達67億了然後呢看一下105年基金還有12.9億到了114年總共花掉了90億所以我們現在短促了多少上面寫得非常的清楚67億已經短促了這我一直在講的我要講的是現在有某委員說或者是剛剛主席長在私底下我們的討論他說呢基金的辦法"},{"start":6852.54,"end":6873.66,"text":"有講到要給禁法補償各一半我們大家想一下辦法可以逾越法律嗎剛剛我已經講了我們不管是預算法不管是中和發展基金的使用目的都不行的然後105年的時候當時是朱哲銘前組記長"},{"start":6875.734,"end":6895.892,"text":"那時候我就已經問他了我說呢你們原民會把這個金髮補償放到基金裡面是不對的然後當時的前主計長告訴我說現在還有錢可以用啦如果呢以後原民會的綜合發展基金不夠錢的時候我們會協助啦這個都可以去看我的總質詢在105年的時候"},{"start":6902.998,"end":6910.402,"text":"然後呢上個禮拜我因為清楚知道基金是短促了67億很危險要破產了所以禮拜五的時候我也提案我提案什麼基金要維持在100億的水位"},{"start":6920.228,"end":6947.334,"text":"大家可以看到民進黨全力反對包括兩位原住民的立法委員也反對然後以上就是我要針對基金的部分來回應我們的主計長千萬不要想用基金的部分這又是另外一次違法而且它還有破產的問題那最後我要再講的是原住民的族人我們人口雖少但是我們有志氣"},{"start":6948.394,"end":6948.554,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6971.538,"end":6978.984,"text":"我想透過今天我們朝野協商透過直播大家可以感受到執政黨在面對這個課題我們有沒有誠意我們真的是要解決問題為了解決問題而來而方法有許多種總是讓行政院去想辦法"},{"start":6999.54,"end":7002.802,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7024.656,"end":7043.033,"text":"不管是透過來凍結預算或是刪除預算總是都有方法但是我們看到的就是說為什麼在野黨一直無法去理解一件事就是說每個個別立委都有提案所以大家去說我們民進黨有立委去提案但是他是個別的立委"},{"start":7043.473,"end":7060.92,"text":"那縱使有人連署我相信我們大家在立委的時候我們大家在連署的時候面對每一個立委他對於政策有他的意見的時候我們會去連署他讓他呈案也就是讓他有未來被討論的機會但是這個被討論的機會並不代表行政院一定要買單"},{"start":7062.645,"end":7085.439,"text":"所以我幹嘛重點大家一直說以前的事不要再講以前講過但是以前講過如果是重點的話我們就一定要再講一次2019年通過了財政紀律法財政紀律法裡面講得很清楚我們未來的修法不得要求行政院為定額經費或者是比例的一個保障"},{"start":7086.874,"end":7104.532,"text":"所以就是不能做定額2019是一個重要的分水嶺在2019年前有提案包括你說老榮津貼包括其他的提案也許他會提案就直接增加但是在2019後基於財政紀律法我們不能為定額之提案"},{"start":7105.353,"end":7126.318,"text":"所以這個我覺得很重要包括說我們上個會期我們有通過了村里長的春節慰問金當時也是沒有行政院的版本那由立委的版本跑在前面但最後行政院也認為說好我們來增加村里長的春節慰問金所以行政院後來也是提出了版本這個我想大家都知道"},{"start":7126.818,"end":7154.939,"text":"那講到老榮今天2015年的時候2011年的時候那個時候財政基礎法還沒有修訂確實有民進黨有國民黨的立委都有提議要增加一千塊最後行政院有沒有同意這件事剛剛鄭天成委員只講行政院沒有同意錯行政院就是同意了所以他提出了他的對岸至於他的對岸他的願板就是要求要有老榮津貼要有排付條款"},{"start":7156.96,"end":7176.722,"text":"那如果沒有增加那一千塊幹嘛忽然間跑出了一個說老農津貼又排不條款怎麼可能大家會把農民的權益就限縮了行政院就提出了一個限縮版本當然前提就是他接受國民黨民進黨立委提案給老農民增加一千塊的老農津貼"},{"start":7178.223,"end":7202.585,"text":"那這個牌付條款 它裡面有規定 這個農民你持有不動產你持有農地以外的不動產 超過500萬你就不能領了我自己也有提案 好多立委給我連署我希望這個500萬要調整那我也歷經我們民進黨 我們立法院我們過半的時候 行政院沒有接受我的提案"},{"start":7203.894,"end":7222.83,"text":"行政院不接受,我也是要繼續去說服行政院到行政院可以說我這個覺得五百萬不合理提高到一千萬因為現在整個的這個不動產的價格是跟以前是2011年的時候有很大的落差我提這個行政院也不讓我接受,我還是要繼續溝通啊"},{"start":7223.47,"end":7251.008,"text":"所以立法的一個過程就是跟行政院磋商去爭取到對自己、對我們的選民不管是對每個層次的人最有利的我們立法委員、立法委員我們有這個建議我們去推他拼命但是這個打拚的這個前提就是要符合財政紀律法讓行政院有辦法編出合理的預算而且這個合理的預算我們也一直強調說我們進法補償如果我們要把它一次編組的話"},{"start":7252.389,"end":7278.745,"text":"你想想看預算估起來差不多要到40多億了50億了要到50億了你看看我們去年人民會是111億今年增加了124億增加了13億增加的幅度是比整個中央政府的總預算稅出的幅度還要增加的還要比較多"},{"start":7279.585,"end":7301.361,"text":"所以這個編預算基本上對於原住民他的照顧就是比總預算增加的幅度要高但是你如果把這個五十幾億把他灌進來他直接就佔了原民會的預算的比例就高達了39%就會排擠到了其他的業務所以行政院有他的一個考量他編出合理的28億"},{"start":7303.922,"end":7309.548,"text":"編出合理28億那因為我們現在大家草原有這樣的一個分歧所以他也有誠意說好這個6萬我們拿出一個辦法"},{"start":7314.269,"end":7342.116,"text":"辦法由行政院來想先6萬滿足未來我們讓它進入法制化我們都說了老人年金老農年金很多津貼事實上都是走向法制化我們就讓它法制化以行政院認為合理的一個金額作為法制化的基準點以後沒幾年就會調整這個金額就會提高因為法制化通常我們都會說如果CPI低於之前的話那就不算"},{"start":7342.936,"end":7353.723,"text":"我們法治法通常都是這樣定的就是希望給人民的今天不管是進法補償也好不管是其他的一個社會社會的一個救助金也好越來越多人民越來越好我們大家都期待啊但是就是要這個政府他的財政是OK"},{"start":7358.906,"end":7359.307,"text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言"},{"start":7386.384,"end":7402.955,"text":"謝謝院長我想院長應當也稍後要做出裁示了我們現在面對的是用26億援助民族進法補償的經費原民委員再也黨團認為行政院沒有編組所以用26億要來擋下3兆的總預算"},{"start":7407.984,"end":7436.129,"text":"原民委員說得很大聲要為原民用生命來捍衛世上現在已經有原住民族的青年開始聯署串聯他們反對高金素美原民委員用這樣子禁法補償的案子來做政治的鬥爭原民的青年已經開始在串聯那受惠的有5萬個原民的地主我們要為這5萬原民的地主爭取福利應當"},{"start":7437.677,"end":7445.401,"text":"要想方設法和憲都可以來做但是現在為了這5萬的社會的3萬變6萬要擋下2350萬臺灣人民的總預算嗎再說一次用26億擋下3兆總預算用5萬人民的社會地主的權益來凌駕2350萬國人的"},{"start":7463.707,"end":7481.824,"text":"總預算的需求合理嗎?剛剛討論進法補償（很多的內容討論很有意義（很有建設性（未來主計總署如果認為（合縣的範圍要來補足（那麼用基金（用二倍金（用追加預算各種方式（"},{"start":7482.344,"end":7508.635,"text":"可以討論但是討論的場域應當是在審查預算在內政委員會審查原住民族明年度的預算的時候這番討論應當發生在那樣的場域而不是發生在阻卻總預算附委審查的朝野協商的場域我再說一次預算附委對於人民經費如何花得更有效率更有品質更公平正義"},{"start":7509.415,"end":7538.23,"text":"那是在審議原民會預算的時候在內政委員會歡迎對話歡迎討論那今天重中之重關鍵中的關鍵在野黨的委員總是會說行政部門只要依法他們都尊重那執政黨團的意見也是一句話在野委員只要合憲我們都尊重只要合憲"},{"start":7541.749,"end":7564.591,"text":"都可以來克服萬難但是如果是違憲的修法違憲的百分之百來增加預算不能給的就是沒有辦法給否則今天26億明天260億馬上兩兆的健康法案又來了"},{"start":7566.062,"end":7591.361,"text":"這是後患無窮這是行政部門依憲法依法行政就是依憲行政現在在野黨委員做的是逼迫行政院要違法違憲委員們都說吳思耀你當初參與了武力華的聯署是但是我最終不表決我投下了反對票"},{"start":7592.574,"end":7617.789,"text":"我們在立委當了這麼多年不要騙三歲小孩不要亂帶風向立委面對個別委員的提案是參與聯署是為了讓他成案每一個法案不會在他簽署聯署的時候就決定了他最終的命運否則立法院何必需要一讀二讀三讀的程序何必需要對話討論呢"},{"start":7620.728,"end":7649.157,"text":"不是要我擔任從議員到立委只要對於教育文化的法案我都盡量簽署對於援助民族照顧的法案我也努力來簽署但是我有主張這個內容要妥善討論不是就照這個版本來通過再說一次法案要討論的一讀二讀三讀沒有一關是可以跳過的"},{"start":7650.387,"end":7665.421,"text":"也正因為有一讀二讀三讀的程序當初聯署的吳思瑤發現美其民照顧原民增加禁法補償的津貼但是最終會造成47%原民的預算被排擠"},{"start":7670.585,"end":7695.375,"text":"這樣子不是真的在為原住民的權益來思考因為這樣是剝奪了更多數原住民族他應當擁有的預算資源因為這樣最終我沒有辦法接受這樣子的暴增幅度民進黨團最終我們一致的做出否決"},{"start":7697.782,"end":7704.63,"text":"為限的事情不能做就是不能做所以院長你恐怕也要做一下決定了"},{"start":7705.663,"end":7729.942,"text":"因為您今天處理的決定是我們不應當在這個朝野協商為了一個原民會預算或者是要延伸到公糧要延伸到這個健保這些都要回到省衛福部的預算去處理省經濟部的預算去處理院長您要裁示的是我們的總預算要破史上紀錄第6次在院會被擋下嗎"},{"start":7731.623,"end":7758.438,"text":"從來沒有拖這麼久還連預算剛開始第一關審查都沒有我們剛剛在撥畫廊在補交作業在補學分來審上一屆沒有審的國營事業預算在野黨委員都沒得這樣啊那這樣我們現在到底還要做同樣的嚴當審議要拖到下個會期嗎?拖過法定期程嗎?不應當如此院長您必須做個決定如果"},{"start":7759.358,"end":7768.768,"text":"逼迫行政部門做違憲的預算編列這真的是後患無窮我們也支持行政部門要捍衛憲政的精神"},{"start":7780.081,"end":7793.19,"text":"委員長我今天如果真的要達成協商如果這個如吳世耀委員這樣的一個論述我想對我們協商的最後的一個結論絕對是沒有幫忙的我想一再去強調說什麼我們黨這個預算"},{"start":7796.158,"end":7819.915,"text":"我想剛才對蔡議員處議長講的我非常贊同他從這個法律的觀點的角度去評析說這個到底這樣的一個預算的編列有沒有這個他的正當性我想有沒有正當性這個大家可以討論但是我從一個觀點剛才議員講的非常好就是說到底說我們從這個3萬把他提高到6萬這個基準點誰來判斷啊"},{"start":7823.944,"end":7845.989,"text":"因為你剛才已經講說這個基準點可能行政院認為不行嘛那因為法案已經通過你認為行政院現在反悔了當初為什麼這法案要通過所以他們只能答應就是再多一萬塊但是剛才鄭天才委員講得非常清楚啊民國82年就兩萬塊啊這是多久以前的事情啊現在把它提高到六萬塊"},{"start":7847.74,"end":7876.366,"text":"這是非常合理就是你要有一個合理的基準點我現在不講行政院你的判斷基準在哪裡我們的你們的委員提案大家連署然後在整個討論過程中當然有一些反對的意見行政院曾經說那我們只能到4萬塊你們曾經提出這樣的一個說法但到最終大家討論的結果然後陳炎講的很清楚哦包含吳立華講的很清楚我都有跟行政院溝通啊他說他有去溝通啊"},{"start":7877.523,"end":7898.354,"text":"現在都非常的清楚所以你現在一直跟我們行政院現在才來跟我們講說你這個是違憲啊啊你這個是這個違法違法的編列我想這完全說不過去行政院你就已經考量過整個當時的情況你認為你的財政能夠去編出這樣的預算你才同意讓這個法案通過嗎"},{"start":7899.635,"end":7926.291,"text":"現在你就說什麼拿個大帽子扣我們說我們以這個原住民的這個補償條例來去阻擋我們的預算我想我們堅持的是一個原則就行政院你要依法行政啊你沒有依法行政我們立法院三途通過的法案被你踐踏這是一個立法委員你看得下去嗎這等於說我沒有做到監督的職責這個跟總預算所謂的黨是沒有關係我們希望你退回從邊啊"},{"start":7928.359,"end":7951.789,"text":"現在不是開車一黨二黨六黨三黨四黨到現在第五黨第六黨打到第六黨啦不是開車的委員長這個要很嚴肅來面對要依法行政我再做最後的講的謝謝林世民蘇議長那接著請黃國昌總召請發言陳主席長請準備謝謝院長我剛剛說過了其實我不太想希望這件事情有問題再發言"},{"start":7953.078,"end":7979.604,"text":"但是我也說過如果有人要再講一次再講一次再講一次那就要把話說清楚不要讓我們單方面的忍耐跟克制變得好像是對方講的有道理我們一點一點來第一個預算法91條我上次協商已經講過預算法91條白紙黑字寫的是什麼是徵詢行政院的意見不是取得行政院的同意徵詢意見跟取得同意"},{"start":7980.644,"end":7983.946,"text":"很難理解嗎很難理解嗎他們剛剛在講話的時候我都沒插嘴喔我坐在這邊靜靜的講嘛那我現在在講話的時候他們不拿麥克風在這邊插嘴喔這種沒有禮貌的行為喔真的不是應該在這邊所發生的狀況第二個"},{"start":8003.607,"end":8026.577,"text":"財政紀律法第7條第7條不是這樣解釋的啦拜託喔第7條各級政府立法機關定地修正法律不得為徵定固定經費額度或比例保障他講的是什麼他在講的是說在那個預算裡面你不可以劃一個什麼劃一個固定的額度或者是比例說一定要用在哪裡"},{"start":8028.073,"end":8051.992,"text":"這個在修法的過程當中講得很清楚啊不是說在修正法律案的時候針對國家的公法上幾乎義務給個定具體的數額這樣叫違反財政紀律法第7條否則的話不要忘了財政紀律法第7條不是只有拘束立法機關啊行政機關受不受拘束行政機關也受拘束啊"},{"start":8053.362,"end":8061.349,"text":"行政機關也受拘束啊如果是行政機關也受拘束了那請問增加各級民意地方民意道表的給付的數額"},{"start":8063.407,"end":8091.511,"text":"按照你們這樣的解釋也是屬於在這邊所講的固定經費額度我再強調一次財政紀律法不是只有拘束立法機關行政機關也受拘束換句話說如果按照你們那樣的解釋即使行政機關plus立法機關都同意你做這樣子的修法針對公法上的幾夫一物給固定的額數或增加他的數額都違反財政紀律法就不是這樣解釋嘛"},{"start":8092.071,"end":8119.028,"text":"那否則的話前面一拖骨法律案全部都違反什麼全部都違反財政紀律法根本在規範的狀況就不是你們所講的那個樣子嘛第三個部分剛剛有說趕快復委然後有很多什麼包括之前的組決議我們在審查預算的時候看要怎麼樣子再處理然後看要怎麼樣子再做什麼其他的方式"},{"start":8121.412,"end":8148.222,"text":"審查預算案的時候立法機關有的權限非常的清楚我們可以刪我們可以凍結但我們不能夠調整行政院預算案的內容我不能幫他增加金額我也不能幫他挪用這個是基本的原則在這個基本的原則下請問行政院沒有編的東西"},{"start":8149.574,"end":8164.84,"text":"行政院沒有編的東西如何透過在預算案的審議過程當中來處理就是沒有辦法處理嘛所以我們才會要求才會拜託行政院請你把預算編好"},{"start":8166.076,"end":8186.084,"text":"請你把預算編好我們趕快來審查沒有問題但問題是什麼當你該編而沒有編要我們審議的時候請問立委如何在審議的過程當中處理行政部門該編而沒有編的問題就沒有辦法處理嘛我沒有辦法增加我也沒有辦法挪用啊"},{"start":8187.666,"end":8201.801,"text":"這啟示可以在審查預算的過程當中去處理的無法處理嘛如果有辦法處理的話等一下拜託我們行政機關的代表請我們的主計長跟所有黨團的立委開示一下"},{"start":8202.722,"end":8232.074,"text":"要如何處理如何處理不違反行政部門裡面所在想的在審查預算的過程當中我們只能刪只能動我們不能增加我們也不能挪用科目請問到底要如何處理今天這個原則為什麼重要因為如果可以讓行政部門這個樣子的話那以後立法院就當成行政院背書的小弟就好了嘛"},{"start":8233.237,"end":8260.055,"text":"你就直接把它稱之為這是我們行政院的立法局嘛完全就按照我們行政院的意思嘛問題是這個是我們爭取這麼久的憲政主義下的權力分立的真諦嗎我必須要直接講我沒有辦法認同我回顧三件事情今天我們還在講的喔是禁法補償的法律案喔"},{"start":8261.932,"end":8286.055,"text":"上個會期在協商的時候韓院長很辛苦從頭到尾坐在那邊認真負責大家看了都很感動針對有關於健保給付的問題針對有關健保給付的問題是三黨的黨團幹部大家都簽字院長花了多少精神多少時間"},{"start":8288.213,"end":8300.336,"text":"說服各個黨團 大家都在上面簽字結果到今天在行政部門的眼中我們三個黨團都簽字喔那個主決議啊跟廢紙一樣我們當初花那麼多時間去討論那個東西的意義何在討論那個東西的意義何在沒有意義嘛"},{"start":8313.82,"end":8337.521,"text":"那還是說等一下請主計長告訴大家我們在審查預算的過程當中按照行政部門的高見立法委員到底接下來在審查預算的過程當中針對他們所編的預算我們可以說如何去貫徹如何去實踐建保點值在明年夏天以前每點要有0.95元這樣子組決議的內容嗎"},{"start":8342.418,"end":8364.384,"text":"因為剛剛主計長的發言讓我覺得很困惑他好像有個百寶箱 裡面工具很多原來可以這樣處理 可以那樣處理彈性很大 空間很大之前都沒聽說過之前卓榮他是鐵板一塊每工請4萬元沒有別的了"},{"start":8366.297,"end":8394.326,"text":"如果超過每公頃4萬元按照卓榮泰昨天晚上臉書的發文就是什麼就是你進去餐廳裡面亂點菜對於行政院這樣的比喻我絕對不接受我絕對不接受一個行政院院長可以講話不負責任到這種程度第二個等一下也請主計長跟大家說明公糧收購價格每公斤調整5元"},{"start":8396.547,"end":8420.956,"text":"我再說明一次我們當初提案的時候院長主持的院會請問在場委員有沒有異議一個異議都沒有一個異議都沒有在立法院公報裡面寫得清清楚楚的好 那請問在我們接下來預算審議的過程當中依照行政部門的高見我們要如何去實踐我們上個會期"},{"start":8425.334,"end":8450.043,"text":"臺灣民進黨黨提出中央國民黨提出我們的執政黨立委在現場一個意義都沒有所通過的公洋收購價格每公斤要調高五元如何在接下來的預算審議過程當中實踐這件事情我們可以挪用你們編在不同項目下面的經費嗎可以做這種事嗎"},{"start":8452.881,"end":8481.042,"text":"正是因為沒有辦法做這種事才會要求行政部門拜託你們把預算編好最後我希望等一下主計長能夠把行政部門的立場說清楚因為他剛剛又講了一次但是我必須要講我聽起來很抽象顯然是他有很多工具是可以用嘛那如果很多工具沒有用"},{"start":8481.994,"end":8505.769,"text":"我在乎的是原住民依照禁法補償條例目前三讀通過有效施行的法律每公頃六萬元每公頃六萬元是不是會依法發放會不會依法發放第二個如果會依法發放的話在現在的預算科目當中有沒有辦法支付"},{"start":8511.974,"end":8532.26,"text":"有沒有辦法支付這個都是很明確的問題需要很清楚的答案每公頃6萬元發不發這個是第一個問題第二個依照目前你們所送來的預算不管是在公務預算還是在基金每公頃6萬元的發放錢夠不夠錢夠不夠第三個每公頃發放6萬元"},{"start":8540.816,"end":8560.125,"text":"有沒有附帶條件因為剛剛主計長拿著麥克風講的話跟我們剛剛我私底下聽到的完全不一樣我剛剛私底下聽到的是似乎明年每公頃要發放6萬元行政部門是有附帶條件的什麼附帶條件"},{"start":8561.653,"end":8590.545,"text":"要在野黨同意修法改為每公頃4萬元有沒有這樣的附帶條件請行政部門說清楚講明白因為我沒有辦法相信啊我們的行政部門現在要脅立法院的方式是什麼我明年發6萬但條件是什麼修法修回來否則呢否則怎麼樣否則你明年沒有打算要按照每公頃6萬元發放嗎最後一次啊"},{"start":8592.224,"end":8619.56,"text":"說這個是違法違憲的法律那我就看不懂啦民進黨原名的委員在原鄉啊倒數設看板啊三讀通過啊按照我的版本啊不是台灣民眾黨的版本欸不是中國國民黨的版本欸他說他按照我的版本三讀通過每公頃六萬元在原鄉啊那個看板啊到處都設立啊"},{"start":8621.209,"end":8644.439,"text":"那如果按照今天民進黨的立場是不是要回去把那個看板全部都換掉每工請6萬違法違憲啊可以這樣玩兩面手法喔不好意思啊院長我承認我這輪話講太多但我前面我已經把我的立場表達得很清楚了我希望今天是來解決問題我希望今天是聽行政部門"},{"start":8645.646,"end":8669.579,"text":"提出解決的方案解決問題沒有想要長篇大論但有的時候有一些事情該回應我們還是要適度回應謝謝謝謝黃國昌總召的發言那陳主席長您要不要喝口茶深呼一下好不好因為我們現在大家都在傾聽好不好來請是不好意思因為剛剛黃總召一直說齁把"},{"start":8672.099,"end":8696.147,"text":"主席長沒有講的話硬要塞到他的嘴巴對他可以解釋對他有主席長講但是有些話是我們講的我懂我們是代表立法院民進黨黨團講的話並不代表行政院沒有關係 水長沒有問題陳主席長可以解釋的他現在有發言權所以剛剛修法這一塊是我們提出我們希望讓他法治化那我們法治化的原因我剛剛講很多我也不用再講了但是我不希望"},{"start":8696.527,"end":8696.687,"text":"委員請發言"},{"start":8708.232,"end":8728.425,"text":"謝謝院長我這裡主要是補充就是所謂的原住民族綜合發展基金它整個一個一個相關的一個用途和來龍去脈就是原住民族這個基本法第18條裡面它裡面有談到主要基金的來源就是中央政府循預算程序的撥款"},{"start":8729.105,"end":8755.271,"text":"主宰、租售和相關業務收益款還有援助民族土地賠償、補償和收益款相關法定規定的所以一般它就是在支出裡面它就有編這個援助民進化補償那這個收入的來源就是由政府由行政院撥補撥補的一個收入來源我只是說明它是這樣子的一個規範以上補充"},{"start":8756.988,"end":8757.789,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8779.581,"end":8797.427,"text":"來再談到健保點子0.95的方案這個部分行政院他是為了要盡力改善健保財政狀況提升整體醫療品質他114年度他已經增加依註健保基金336億元然後行政院又核定114年度的健保醫療給戶成長率從3.5到5.5所以估計健保總額他可以成長357到531億元"},{"start":8809.051,"end":8837.313,"text":"所以這加起來就將近於700多億那健保點子它這個整個涉及到整個醫療服務量和不可控制的因素所以我們必須還是要透過它整個一個十級的分級醫療還有實質審查健保支出等配套的機制來逐步達到這個我們服務點子的一個目標所以其實我們在這方面已經盡很大的努力那在談到公糧收購的方面"},{"start":8838.053,"end":8852.267,"text":"工糧收購方面,農業部評估以後提出一急二轉3加3的策略預估推行3年以後,產地價格每公積可抵達3元以上所以我們還是尊重業務部門的主張"},{"start":8858.339,"end":8876.396,"text":"各位黨團幹部,容許我綜合各位所提出來的以及行政部門的答詢,我列出兩點,今天我們協商的結論。一、今天協商各黨團的意見跟主計長所提的說明方案兩者有一定的落差。"},{"start":8877.461,"end":8896.402,"text":"由於主席長所提的解決方案涉及到未來總預算案是否能夠順利復為的關鍵所以仍要拜託主席長利用今天協商之後的時間妥為向各黨團來進行說明二、我們下一次的協商時間就交於各黨團幹部"},{"start":8898.41,"end":8898.51,"text":"主席"},{"start":8919.687,"end":8920.127,"text":"總預算案編列當中的幾個部門編列的事項"},{"start":8941.789,"end":8956.153,"text":"在野黨的委員有所疑議都構成總預算不附為審查的理由嗎我剛剛有提到不管是進法補償應當在內政委員會審議原民會預算的時候大家可以討論在公糧收購應當是在經濟委員會審查農業部的預算的時候可以討論有關健保點值應當是在衛環委員會來審議衛福部預算的時候可以討論"},{"start":8971.417,"end":8988.39,"text":"所以院長您真的認為現在這三個事項就足以構成總預算持續的不交付審查這樣子的合理理由嗎所以我們是非常期待院長有相當的高度調和鼎賴的能力"},{"start":8989.17,"end":9011.796,"text":"如果院長願意因為依《立法院職權刑事法》68條針對議案之間的爭議或是一些僵局由院長來主持協商來化解如果院長您願意能夠來協助就是總預算您作為立法院院長審議預算是立委的職責立法院也不能推諉"},{"start":9013.058,"end":9029.94,"text":"所以立法院應當來審查總預算我還是期待院長應當往這個方面來促成朝野往前進一步好嗎這個部分再請院長多多偏勞也希望您的才識跟方向可以往這個方向來前進謝謝"},{"start":9031.241,"end":9031.281,"text":"主席"},{"start":9048.783,"end":9070.238,"text":"其實我相信 院長不管是上個星期召集或者今天 或者我們在另訂時間就是為了要解決問題這樣的態度是絕無用意的那我不曉得為什麼我們吳思瑤幹事長仍然要用這樣的方式去質問院長如果院長不要解決問題請問一下我們大家坐在這邊幹什麼浪費時間嗎 是不是其一那第二點"},{"start":9075.942,"end":9104.82,"text":"也就是其實今天主計處所提到的包括就是說你願意在預算裡面去予以協助或支付大家都知道預算有很多的方式譬如說我也沒有聽到追加預算也是一個方式啊那我也沒有聽到有追加預算的這樣的一個選項那一直在講說啊那我們用基金來付然後我們再用預算那個來支付這個基金那我就覺得很奇怪了如果"},{"start":9105.62,"end":9124.815,"text":"在明年的我們的預算也就是大家一直在講說在這個經費上面事實上是可以足以支應3萬到6萬的話我不懂欸為什麼一定要讓基金來過水一次呢為什麼要讓用基金來過水一次剛才還提到基金的一些它的事法性問題"},{"start":9125.996,"end":9126.136,"text":"主席"},{"start":9144.207,"end":9159.815,"text":"在行政院的部分能夠更明確的告訴我們你要怎麼解決然後還有就是剛才特別提到的就是健保點值的部分健保點值跟健保其他的預算不能夠完全畫上等號啊"},{"start":9161.696,"end":9176.783,"text":"這個事大家都很清楚知道事情不要這樣的糊弄或者是公糧收購的部分我們也希望在下一次在我們能夠這個就是在進行協商的時候行政院能夠有更明確的一個態度"},{"start":9178.224,"end":9194.059,"text":"這個態度其實是很重要的而不是說今天我不希望說到時候又看到一個什麼奇怪怪的臉書然後我們根本搞不清楚行政院到底葫蘆裡面賣什麼藥還有一點我覺得最重要的是我們今天一直在討論就是"},{"start":9195.78,"end":9220.618,"text":"我們的立法委員提案的時候提案人聯署人我覺得都應該是非常認真負責任的態度如果我可以閉著眼睛提案的話或者我閉著眼睛去聯署哎呀沒關係啊大家討論看看啊我聯署不是就是希望他也能夠通過嗎所以我覺得這一點事實上我們必須再重申的"},{"start":9221.218,"end":9243.657,"text":"就是當過去武力華委員還有陳寅委員他們的提案而民進黨有高達30多位的委員包含無私要委員在內都有進行連署的時候我覺得大家都應該是負責任的而不是到了現在好像突然這個換了時間然後就換了態度然後反而去把這個"},{"start":9244.998,"end":9245.198,"text":"10月24日下午3點"},{"start":9263.436,"end":9264.177,"text":"今天謝謝各位我們散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024102156","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"155867","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155867","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f05cc6a0f5116b986ef6b87f55f73740712a9ac560eeb6d272caa74d82ca9087435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:40:24 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or no主席沒有支持我主席如果支持我那主席請回答我請主席回答我要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢羅志強你反對公聽會嗎羅志強你反對公聽會嗎"},{"start":26.002,"end":45.127,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":58.305,"end":78.979,"text":"主席各位委員政府官員們還有在場和線上關心憲法訴訟法修正的先生女士還有媒體記者們大家好那接下來呢就由我來說明我與林思敏委員所共同提案的憲法訴訟法的修正內容和理由以供大家了解我們知道我們中華民國憲法徵修條文明定大法官15人"},{"start":80,"end":108.662,"text":"那目的就是為了要確保憲法法庭在審理重大事件案件的時候能夠涵蓋多元意見充分考量各種不同的法律見解避免單一或少數觀點會主導裁判導致可能做成偏頗的裁判而影響到憲法裁判的公信力和公正性然而我國憲法訴訟法並沒有像其他外國的法律規定一樣有明定而最低的法定出席人數和做成同意"},{"start":109.963,"end":132.738,"text":"同意的裁判的這個法定人數比如說像是韓國大法官有9人他規定至少7個人出席才開會法國的憲法委員會同樣也是9位委員規定至少7個人才能做成決議而日本呢則是有分大法庭跟小法庭他們的最高裁判所的大法庭15個人也是規定開會人數至少要9人小法庭呢是5個人但是規定開會的法定人數至少要3個人"},{"start":138.362,"end":156.596,"text":"所以我國現在的憲法訴訟法當中確實是沒有明定最低的開會出席的法定人數還有做成評議的這個法定人數那麼因此這一次的這個修法呢基本上是希望能夠健全我們憲法法庭的制度那麼特別是我們接下來可能即將有出現有大法官這個有出缺的狀況"},{"start":162.681,"end":169.405,"text":"只剩下8位大法官我們有15位大法官7位大法官卸任只剩下8位大法官在任那麼如果這個中間又出現有提前辭任死亡或者是因為沒有辦法通過補足大法官的名額將出現可能會有極少數的兩三位或三四位大法官就可能會做成宣告法律違憲的憲法裁判"},{"start":190.555,"end":216.373,"text":"那麼在這樣的一個情況之下極有可能會由少數的大法官就會操控法律違憲宣告於會由極少數大法官就可以去操控法律違憲與否的情形這個是與我們憲法徵修條文明天要有15位大法官來參與審議的這個制度是相違背的那麼我在這裡我要再次強調"},{"start":218.292,"end":221.474,"text":"憲法法庭於審理和決議的過程當中必須要足夠多數大法官人數出席以及達到多數門檻的同意那麼才能夠實踐更高程度的憲法裁判的嚴謹性要求那麼這次的本條"},{"start":233.78,"end":257.414,"text":"這個條文的修正絕對不會像司法院報告中所說的會癱瘓釋憲制度會損害人民的救濟權利相反的這次的修正案的是在健全釋憲制度反對少數大法官專斷裁判維護憲政秩序捍衛人民的申請釋憲權利那麼同時我也認為司法院的擔心根本是多餘的話錯重點了超錯心了"},{"start":257.774,"end":279.286,"text":"你們應該煩惱的是賴總統坑狠地會濫用大法官的提名權而提出了一群不適格不適任的大法官候選人使得立法院難以接受並且同意這份名單這才是造成憲法法庭癱瘓的最主要的原因我想我一再重申寧缺勿濫是立法院審查重要人事案的基本原則"},{"start":280.851,"end":305.077,"text":"那本期也相信只要是被庭人的資格是適任的是適合的而不是酬庸不是打手那立法院會有什麼理由不同意那麼最後呢本期要再講我因為還有修正另外一條是95條本條本法修正條文施行日期是自公佈日期即刻實施那麼這條的立法目的無他其實就是防小人防無賴的條款"},{"start":307.397,"end":335.595,"text":"本席希望司法院不要有樣學樣學著模仿行政院不立即去施行立法院所通過的NCC組織法條文竟耍些玩弄法律的小人作風所以這個條文的制定基本上就是防小人條款最後我也懇請在座的各位委員能夠支持本席與林世民委員共同所提的憲法訴訟法第四條和第十五條修正案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16188","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fccdd974dd956c7ad60f9a65472a0a5ac36059d4d42a7fce21e375caeaf2992ab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-21T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T16:23:00+08:00","duration":28334,"影片長度":"07:52:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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修法之前立法院擅盡憲政機關的忠誠義務大法官人事同意權必須啟動審查必須來行使立委的法定職責謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請鐘嘉斌委員"},{"start":2632,"end":2656.1,"text":"主席我先說明我這個是會議詢問不是程序問題那會議詢問主要因為同樣是擔任召委輪值過所以要請教我們主席會議詢問說今天的列席備詢的官員其實不能備詢啦說明啦因為今天司法院他們來到立法院他們並沒有向立法院接受立法委員詢問之義務啦"},{"start":2658.141,"end":2682.649,"text":"因為憲法講得很清楚嘛這個憲法第57條行政院向立法院負責所以行政院各部會的首長政務官有到立法院接受詢問的義務但是今天呢同樣的我們在談憲法訴訟法我們特別邀請司法院因為現在沒有秘書長現在是副秘書長黃秘書長代理那還請來了憲法法庭的書記廳的廳長"},{"start":2685.151,"end":2712.677,"text":"但是他們或許可以來說明憲法訴訟法當中包括提案人所提出的現有總額要改為法定總額這樣的修法意旨在未來或者過去憲法法庭或是大法官審理案件的時候的一個做法但是本席很好奇的要請教於主席能否也邀請到號稱國會百科全書的本院周萬蘭秘書長來到會"},{"start":2714.918,"end":2716.359,"text":"第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2740.535,"end":2766.808,"text":"他說立法院會議需有立法委員總額三分之一出席使得開會這裡寫立法委員總額那總額怎麼定呢前項立法院總額以每會期實際報到人數為計算基準但在會期中辭職、去職或死亡的減除之啊也就是說立法院自己開會的時候我們的法定人數怎麼去計算職權刑事法寫得很清楚"},{"start":2767.748,"end":2786.14,"text":"但是換到我們省自己立法院之緣心事我們同意啊我們立法院開會的時候的額數問題呢是扣掉去職死亡辭職的而且要以單會期由來報到的那就我理解這就是現有人數的意思就是現有總額的意思"},{"start":2787.113,"end":2805.867,"text":"但是輪到我們要審憲法訴訟法的時候立法委員自己提案把這個憲法總和改成法定總和是依憲法徵修條文第四條對不起第五條的規定大法官的額數問題那徵修條文第四條寫立法委員第七屆開始113人"},{"start":2808.769,"end":2823.491,"text":"是不是以後我們立法院開會我們的總額就憲法正確法文第四條這113人做基準的還是根據我們立法院執行法的規定來按照這個方式來計算呢能不能請主席才是啊"},{"start":2824.271,"end":2839.216,"text":"趕快請我們立法院國會百科全書的周萬能秘書長來幫我們好好地解答一下立法院跟司法院總而運作的總的方法怎麼計算聽聽立法院秘書長的說法請主席採視宗嘉斌委員我這邊跟你提醒一下我們今天審的是憲法訴訟法"},{"start":2846.854,"end":2874.507,"text":"好那第二個就是說如果你對這個有興趣那你下次可以排案你來請他來嘛對不對這是主席的權利嘛對不對那你下次當主席你可以請他來啊然後這第三個如果對什麼東西原額你都要比照比照什麼啊這個那你要不要去質疑普通刑庭法院的合議庭為什麼是三個人是固定人數為什麼五個人是固定人數這個講這個沒有意思我們今天審查的是"},{"start":2875.528,"end":2886.45,"text":"對他他問我他請我說明嗎那他剛剛不是請我說明嗎他剛剛請我說明那我現在在說明嗎那你要不要讓我說明"},{"start":2888.851,"end":2889.151,"text":"好謝謝我們主席的指示齁"},{"start":2909.648,"end":2934.922,"text":"那也就是說主席樂見我下次輪值召委的時候我請周萬南秘書長來就憲法訴訟法及立法委員職權刑事法關於額數的問題怎麼樣運作是不是這意思我現在跟各位提醒一下我們今天審的是憲法訴訟法不是其他條不是其他法條好謝謝各位那下一位我們請審博洋委員發言"},{"start":2945.1,"end":2949.151,"text":"好,那沈博洋會議詢問那我覺得這個真的是噩夢就是說在上個會期的時候我們就已經"},{"start":2952.052,"end":2976.443,"text":"在審這個國會擴權法案是這一個跟監察權之間的衝突當時的這一個法案就是想要把監察權整個廢掉那現在我們遇到的是立法權不只要把監察院的職權廢掉現在是要廢掉整一個司法權所以呢我一開始先講一個比較程序上的問題就是說因為前面這一個我看到30條跟43條30條是判決43條是暫時處分它這個已經進步二讀"},{"start":2981.585,"end":3002.797,"text":"但問題就出在這裡,如果我們今天要討論現在到底到法官的這個原額,它的現有總額是多少,那另外修正的這個30條跟這一個43條,它也是跟人數有關,照理說它應該在一起審查才對,那為什麼要把那兩條先經負二讀,然後把這一個現在留在這裡,這聽起來不太合理嘛。"},{"start":3003.377,"end":3022.748,"text":"所以一開始就已經沒有打算要好好來討論這一個法條因為有些法條近乎二讀有一些法條留在這裡這個在程序上其實是不完備的那第二個我要提的就是這一個實質的影響我們在手板上面都有寫這個是有癱瘓憲法法庭的疑慮我們現在不是只有剛剛講的那幾條32、43、31、26、30、75、80、87全部都有這樣的一個問題而且它跟12條到底有沒有衝突"},{"start":3033.014,"end":3048.791,"text":"這個其實在這個司法院的報告其實裡面也都有提到所以很多技術上的細節根本就沒有在這一個法條的修正裡面被討論跟展現更不要講說如果今天法定總額就是現有總額的話那如果以立法技術來講當時就寫總額兩個字不就好了嗎"},{"start":3052.054,"end":3052.394,"text":"憲法訴訟法定總額及憲有總額"},{"start":3070.763,"end":3087.299,"text":"我來看一下這個第82卷第二期當時這個王秘書長假以的發言跟那個黃委員新方跟他之間的詢答裡面就講得很清楚這個現有總額就不是法定總額那當然我也可以看到就是這個國民黨可能有提到就是說"},{"start":3087.819,"end":3114.239,"text":"今天之所以會修正是因為其他國家這樣規定但問題是美國基本上跟終生制沒有兩樣日本呢他也是類似終生制只是他有一個年歲的一個上限那他十年的那個類似罷免的機制基本上是沒有在運作那法國提名的有三種不同的資格人跟台灣更不一樣所以呢這個完全都跟台灣不一樣的情形那為什麼台灣今天要這樣規定台灣最特別的地方是在於說"},{"start":3114.599,"end":3119.063,"text":"．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案。．"},{"start":3132.435,"end":3158.246,"text":"所以我還是要再次強調就是說以現在的這樣一個框架來講如果我們不先處理人事權的一個規定那麼我們現在往下來修這樣的一個總額的規定完全就是把司法權視若於無物那我也可以看到手板上面寫什麼這個是什麼挺賴的大法官什麼等等之類的我想說這個統計沒有學好這是虛假關係我們舉個例子比如說今天大法官很關心兒童福利"},{"start":3159.268,"end":3164.944,"text":"假設賴總統也很關心兒童福利那結果兩個人都關心兒童福利所以這個叫做擁賴大法官嗎?"},{"start":3165.769,"end":3190.689,"text":"如果一個人很關心老人的福利然後一個大法官也關心老人的福利那這樣呢如果他跟民進黨一致難道就是綠的大法官嗎這就是一個非常危險的一種說法嘛故意把人權相關的主張跟法律原則相關的主張把它扣在一起然後就說這個是親綠的這個是永賴的這個無助於我們這個正常的討論沒有想到我們國會議堂上面竟然還可以出現這樣的手板謝謝大家"},{"start":3191.793,"end":3194.414,"text":"主席各位同仁我想今天這個所排的這個案子我想這個其實"},{"start":3221.035,"end":3237.473,"text":"大家我們一定要先說明清楚讓國人知道說今天為什麼這個有關這個憲法這個這個有關這個憲法判決案的這個這個法案的審查為什麼他是要癱瘓這個我們的憲法法庭"},{"start":3239.438,"end":3257.301,"text":"現在依照這個憲法徵修條文第五條這司法院設大法官15人也就是說在這一次的這個立法說明所謂的我們這次修法的所謂法定總額其實嚴格講也不是法定總額他是憲法定的他不是法律定的總額他就是憲定總額憲法定的總額就是15人那這個這個按照我們現在這個這個"},{"start":3267.087,"end":3273.771,"text":"憲法審判法,包括從第12條開始,12條,26條,30條,32條,43條,49條,75條,80條,87條,全部都有牽涉到現有總額的規定。那這現有總額的規定,裡面就是有說必須要現有總額,比如說三分之二的人參與評議,或者必須要有三分之二的人同意。"},{"start":3292.213,"end":3307.337,"text":"等等這些規定都是以現有總額來計算但是今天國民黨提案我們今天所要審查的就是說要把現有總額改成法定總額也就是說我們在今年的這個在即將到了10月31號就這個禮拜10月31號我們到了之後我們有總共有這個7位大法官任期屆滿"},{"start":3318.018,"end":3344.424,"text":"接下來呢其實在2個月前8月31號這個總統府就已經把這個接下來續任新任的新聘的大法官的這個同意權名單送到我們立法院來但立法院拖到現在一直都不審查連協商都沒有協商也就是說從11月1號開始我們的大法官人數15人減掉這7人我們只剩下8個人"},{"start":3345.933,"end":3351.592,"text":"我們只剩8個大法官那這8個大法官呢未來如果今天"},{"start":3352.994,"end":3378.546,"text":"強行修法通過把現有總額等於法定總額也就是說我們所有在這個法律裡面的這些大法官的這個憲法審判裡面所有需要的要件全部需要現有總額本來是現有總額現有總額的意思是什麼就是說我們現在有缺七個人但是現有總額就是八個人用八個人來做基礎來計算需要二分之一同意需要三分之二通過"},{"start":3380.029,"end":3404.047,"text":"但是我們立法院到現在不審查大法官的同意權卻先審查我們的這個先修改我們將現有總額修改成法定總額就是剛講的15人也是未來都必須要15個人的半數15個人的三分之二來通過那是多少呢也就是15個人的三分之二就是10個人啊但是未來大法官只有8個人啊"},{"start":3405.458,"end":3413.9,"text":"也就是說從通過這個法律開始11月1號開始我們的司法我們司法院大法官的這個憲法法庭就癱瘓了就癱瘓了我們今天如果通過這個法11月下個禮拜我們的憲法法庭就癱瘓了我們看到國民黨提這個案子我們真的是非常非常的遺憾而且非常非常憤怒了國民黨他們現在齁"},{"start":3432.474,"end":3449.96,"text":"我們今天這個案子讓司法院的憲法法庭癱瘓然後考試院不審理考試委員讓考試院癱瘓行政院不審理總預算讓行政院癱瘓監察院是任期還沒到捏要不然監察院也要被他們癱瘓是什麼樣的人會這樣子整個中華民國政府他們的目的就是癱瘓中華民國政府五院裡面現在他們就癱瘓三院"},{"start":3461.135,"end":3461.495,"text":"我希望國民黨懸來勒馬"},{"start":3487.065,"end":3494.99,"text":"等一下不要再看到用人數強行停止討論付諸經負表決等一下用人數碾壓然後把這個案子就通過"},{"start":3496.496,"end":3496.956,"text":"議員翁曉玲請大家注意一下發言時間"},{"start":3523.888,"end":3542.119,"text":"主席還有在場的各位委員政府官員和各位媒體記者們大家好剛剛審判委員說我們這次提的這個憲法訴訟法的修法案是在癱瘓這個國家癱瘓這個政府我要請問到底是誰在癱瘓中華民國的民主法治"},{"start":3544.755,"end":3562.701,"text":"我們立法院上個會期辛苦的通過國會改革法案希望能夠強化立法院的職權結果這個法都還沒有開始實施就已經提起釋憲 申請釋憲大法官又把我們的法案又做成暫時處分然後現在預計 過了兩個月 但預計這個星期五應該是會做宣判"},{"start":3568.24,"end":3584.75,"text":"我們通過的NCC組織法通過的這個禁法補償條例原住民的禁法補償條例法律都通過了行政院還可以不依法編列預算他們現在還要再申請釋憲到底是誰在癱瘓民主法制賴清德總統提了一群不適任不適格的大法官名單"},{"start":3593.51,"end":3600.996,"text":"到底是誰在癱瘓憲法法庭不是立法院今天我們提出的要將憲法訴訟法大法官現有總額明定就是憲法這修條文裡面所講的大法官15人這有什麼不對"},{"start":3621.976,"end":3635.665,"text":"從過去的法制史嚴格來看就是這樣啊就是15個人啊只是說以前的大法官們憲法法庭他們有良心他們有專業道德良知知道說不可能少數人就開會但是現在這批大法官不一樣啊"},{"start":3637.315,"end":3657.208,"text":"大法官缺額7個人根本連過半數甚至剩下8個人的大法官就可以開會就可以做成影響人民重要權利的憲法判決甚至推翻我們立法院人民意志所通過的法律這樣是正確的嗎韓國日本法國"},{"start":3664.011,"end":3678.997,"text":"等等這些憲法法院機構他們都有明定最低的開會的法定出席人數我們現在台灣沒有這樣子的一個明定最低的開會的出席人數所以以至於在"},{"start":3680.8,"end":3695.223,"text":"極端的情況剩下的這八位大法官如果裡面有三位迴避或四位迴避那只剩下五位大法官然後過半數三個人就可以確認就可以通過一個憲法裁判這不是不可能"},{"start":3696.104,"end":3718.902,"text":"大家不要忘記了我們現在中華民國我們還有這個三四十條都是跟死刑有關的條文大法官這次只做了四個條文是宣告死刑是有條件核限的但是已經造成實質廢死的效果接下來難保不會大法官再挺身而出再做出死刑是違憲的判決"},{"start":3720.322,"end":3736.097,"text":"更何況現在的大法官呢他不是積極的會去幫人民去處理人民的申請釋憲案他優先處理的是什麼優先處理就是民進黨政府不滿意立法院所通過的法律預算案就紛紛的提起釋憲我們怎麼能夠容許這樣的一群大法官他沒有民主正當性"},{"start":3745.9,"end":3771.665,"text":"然後審查法案也不夠嚴謹的情況之下讓他們接下來的這兩三個月然後繼續去審案呢這就是本席所提出來為什麼要修改憲法訴訟法的最重要的一個原因我們希望能夠健全憲法法庭的制度謝謝因為今天比較劍拔弩張所以待會我還是比較希望說那個有人在發言的時候大家不要去打斷他"},{"start":3773.19,"end":3777.613,"text":"主席首先有一個建議待會我們要審法案程序發言一輪就好了給主席的建議那主席再採取剛剛沈博洋說這個修法是噩夢"},{"start":3801.829,"end":3818.95,"text":"其實我要跟民進黨講民進黨你把大法官當超夢啦什麼惡夢你把民進黨大法官當超夢把大法官當成民進黨的超夢把大法官當成民進黨的神奇寶貝"},{"start":3820.618,"end":3845.171,"text":"只要今天不符合民進黨的意識神奇寶貝超夢就上場了一掃千秋不是嗎?國會改革全世界都有聽證調查就有這個神奇寶貝大法官幫民進黨洗地然後現在禮拜五就要宣布了先給緊急署份凍結更好笑的是更可惡的是"},{"start":3846.417,"end":3856.801,"text":"全民百分之八十以上反對廢除死刑只因為民進黨黨綱你記著廢除死刑結果這個神奇寶貝操夢大法官又出來洗地了結果就變成實質廢死了現在連個禁法補償卓永泰也說欸操夢出來喔神奇寶貝出來了洗地的時間到了我要釋憲了"},{"start":3870.677,"end":3878.146,"text":"我給你再打一次機會喔一次而已喔一次而已喔好好珍惜不然沙漠又要出來洗地了啦"},{"start":3879.409,"end":3903.897,"text":"所以什麼叫噩夢啊今天大法官的尊嚴就是被你民進黨踐踏在腳底下我在講吳思瑤什麼叫癱瘓吳思瑤數學不好啦我先跟各位講一件事情大法官在實質廢死不是做了一個很偉大的宣誓嗎死刑要一字決我先不跟你講死刑一字決今天"},{"start":3905.097,"end":3930.127,"text":"議員翁曉玲的提案也就是把現有定為所謂憲法規定的名額回復憲法而已回復那個15個人的規定然後再看出席的人數沒有講你要一字決大法官任何的事獻出來不就是今天國家50年百年的事情都被大法官決定了死刑要一字決要慎重"},{"start":3931.397,"end":3935.026,"text":"大法官今天做國家大政憲法方針不用慎重"},{"start":3936.462,"end":3960.91,"text":"但無視要來了 我跟你講數學不好不然算數學啦 很簡單 只要民進黨現在才叫癱瘓整個中華民國啊各位你知道嗎 今天如果沒有翁曉玲出來修法 你知道今天是什麼局面嗎民進黨就是搞一個七個廢死大法官 呃六個 七個大法官提名 六個廢死然後就讓你在野黨沒辦法通過嘛 因為八成民意反廢死嘛 他故意的啊"},{"start":3961.65,"end":3978.74,"text":"那接下來八個名額我跟各位講 照明顯現在捍衛這版本會產生什麼情況八個人三分之二出席叫六個出席然後照現在八個人過半五個人就可以決定這個所謂任何的這個國家憲法的決定你以為五個人而已啊按照憲法訴訟法按照規定"},{"start":3986.744,"end":3988.045,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4004.671,"end":4014.72,"text":"就可以所謂的殺人無罪關人違憲哪什麼可能我告訴你就曾經發生過今天大法官6個迴避就發生過就發生過6個迴避處理台大的案件有6個台大的教授什麼叫有沒有可能"},{"start":4023.735,"end":4046.856,"text":"我要告訴你一大五個人可以決定的時候 這個法制大漏洞誰補就是誰補所以今天我有曉玲其實是為了捍衛大法官的尊嚴為了捍衛我們憲政體系的尊嚴所以呢我們今天要來修補這個漏洞數學不好我教你數學沒關係齁那請不要把大法官當作洗地的神奇寶貝謝謝"},{"start":4049.754,"end":4076.659,"text":"因為剛剛我們有提到說程序發言我們先第一輪那因為有人已經填第二次了嘛那我們現在先停止發言登記那待會如果有需要走電沒有沒有沒有待會如果有需要的話那我們再不是我剛剛一開始不是說我們先做第一輪的我們剛剛有說了我們先做第一輪的程序發言嘛那這樣就不要重複我們等一下講完之後然後我們看有沒有需要第二輪"},{"start":4077.179,"end":4106.289,"text":"不是我說我剛剛有講嘛我一開始開議的時候沒有沒有沒有我們等結束之後好不好因為不是我跟你講如果這樣的話那這樣議事沒有辦法進行嘛我不是說不再做我剛剛有講了我說先做第一輪嘛一開始的時候對那如果說我們待會第一輪發言完畢有需要我們就進行第二輪好那我們現在先停止法院登記好那我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":4112.246,"end":4114.429,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們在場的委員各位媒體朋友今天我們在立法院裡面這個好好的仔細去"},{"start":4124.929,"end":4151.775,"text":"回想過去的整個憲政的一個發展立法院今天其實叫做過河拆橋啦這個叫做過河拆橋我等一下再來論述為什麼叫做過河拆橋啦我剛剛也聽到了我們翁曉玲委員去提到說申請釋憲是癱瘓整個民主的一個法制這句話是讓我嚇了一大跳 嚇了一大跳司法法制委員會我是要跟你們開會很煩的你知道嗎因為我們司法法制委員會數值真的沒有很高"},{"start":4152.535,"end":4175.602,"text":"然後提了一大堆非常爭議的一些法案出來我為什麼去講說我們司法法制委員會尤其是我們立法院國民黨的朋友其實可以仔細去回想一下我為什麼說我們這個是過河拆橋呢你去把它看看1999年我們大法官會議做成的4至261號解釋正式的去宣告萬年國會之權侵蝕只能到1991年也就是說"},{"start":4181.485,"end":4205.611,"text":"今天立法院的職權的一個確立是因為1999年做出來的4-261號到了1997年第四次修憲的時候又碰到問題了那當年是李登輝老總統在台灣首度總統職選中他獲勝搭檔的是連戰副總統那後來變成說副總統到底可不可以兼任行政院長"},{"start":4206.994,"end":4226.35,"text":"又產生了憲政上的一個爭議因為兩個職權是不一致的後來連戰先生就按照內閣制的精神就辭掉了整個行政院院長那我在這邊要講的就是說其實啊整個憲政台灣的一個憲政的一個進步啊他是一個浮動性的"},{"start":4227.091,"end":4230.939,"text":"哪怕當年是國民黨一黨專政威權的一個統治大法官會議當初做出這樣的一個解釋以後整個國家"},{"start":4239.858,"end":4265.078,"text":"大步向前邁進那個時候我相信也沒有人會去講說大法官你是神喔大法官你毀憲你亂證喔我相信當初也沒有這樣子各位再去把它想想看在第五次修憲的時候啊第五次修憲的時候為什麼因為1號大法官會議解釋出來以後呢就把你宣告整個第五次的一個修憲全部無效"},{"start":4266.428,"end":4283.541,"text":"那如果以現金來看的話那你國民黨一定講說這個大法官無法無天啊這個就是整個台灣憲政的一個整個的一個發展啊所以呢呃國民黨的朋友跟民眾黨的朋友其實總預算啊本來這一個會期是要審總預算啊那總預算現在也沒有辦法順利排進去啊我們時間其實是多得很啊實在是多得很啊"},{"start":4292.468,"end":4298.644,"text":"我記得國民黨的朋友最喜歡講說要公聽要公聽要尋求社會的一個共識那這樣的一個法案我老實講"},{"start":4303.552,"end":4319.445,"text":"今天提出這整個憲法這三個憲法訴訟法的一個三個條文裡面啊涉及到整個對重大制度的一個變革啊我誠心的建議啊這如果主席你是來教你講你自己來採視下去啊我們應該比較深重的來講聽話讓社會這樣可以更大的一個共識這個我相信這個才是才是一個"},{"start":4329.853,"end":4343.706,"text":"根本否則你今天看看從憲法訴訟法第四條大法官緣和的一個大法官的一個總額還有30條跟43條的雙三分之二甚至於95條的修正日期以現在來看的話"},{"start":4346.261,"end":4363.754,"text":"衝突到底會不會大當然非常大翁曉玲委員這樣的一個提案你說他完全沒有道理嗎道也不是道也不是完全沒有道理可是你這個產生的衝擊這麼大的時候你有沒有配套我每次看到國民黨在試圖啊"},{"start":4365.755,"end":4376.579,"text":"試圖做一些重大的一個抗爭的時候尤其是動到整個憲法法庭的時候我告訴各位國民黨稍微起來一個氣勢常常就因為你去選擇跟大法官會議這樣對幹現在選擇跟憲法法庭這樣一個對幹國民黨會距離人民會越來越遠這個國家真的是大家一起的我最後要講的就是說你試著去把它想想看到去年之前"},{"start":4395.125,"end":4420.773,"text":"現任和憲政機關提出的事件案都是個位數一年大法官會議裡面在憲法法庭裡面接受人民的私信申請權力的一個救濟都是上千件那結果你只因為一個單一的個案或者說因為整個死刑要不要存費你就認為你這個大法官全部好像是執政黨的打手要把這個制度給癱瘓掉"},{"start":4422.401,"end":4428.505,"text":"先聽聽外界的意見好不好謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請林思明委員發言謝謝主席那我想針對剛才莊惠雄委員他提到說翁曉玲委員的修法不是沒有道理我很高興聽到莊委員有這樣的一個肯定"},{"start":4450.784,"end":4457.817,"text":"但是我覺得說民進黨現在就是就是你們陷入一個政治算計的一個局面你一直說我們會癱瘓整個憲法法庭"},{"start":4460.982,"end":4487.678,"text":"實際上,我們從頭到尾,到現在為止,我跟吳士堯科視長報告,我們沒有據審所謂的人事審查案。不管考試委員,現在我們也在協商看怎麼樣來審查考試院的人事案。司法院的大法官的人事案,我們也希望趕快能夠立法院議事處來排審。你們提出說看是提案,到我們院長那邊我們來協商。"},{"start":4489.179,"end":4513.211,"text":"看什麼時候來審查考試院司法院大法官的人事案其實我為什麼講說各位充滿算計呢其實翁曉玲委員的這個修法提案非常有道理難道各位贊成我們憲法法庭的大法官在審法案的時候有少數幾位來決定我們的憲法的相關的一個解釋嗎"},{"start":4514.392,"end":4535.675,"text":"你們贊成嗎?三位四位就可以決定我們憲法的相關的一些重要的法律案的一個觀點嗎?這樣就淪為一個少數的觀點根本不夠多元啊各位想想今天為什麼我們會把大法官設定為15位在國外很多的國家只有9位"},{"start":4536.758,"end":4552.324,"text":"我們當初立法的意旨就是希望有更多的大法官提出他的一個法律的見解然後他的最後的一個評議的門檻同意的這個最後判決的門檻是要達到三分之二"},{"start":4553.416,"end":4578.646,"text":"所以我們因為當初法律的漏洞造成說我們現在只有幾個大法官就可以做出憲法的一個裁判這是非常危險的這對我們人民的權益的保障是非常非常的可以陷入一個非常危險的境界也就是說幾個人我們學理上所謂的管件狹隘的觀點就可以決定我們的法制"},{"start":4579.827,"end":4602.365,"text":"我想這完全不符合憲政的原理也不符合我們民主法制的一個原理所以我們認為說這個這一次的修法完全就是在實踐實質的正義捍衛我們一個正義的一個觀點所以我希望各位委員我們經過充分的討論之後大家你有你的看法你提出修正意見"},{"start":4603.226,"end":4618.175,"text":"但是最後我們整個討論程序完畢之後我們還是要以民主的程序讓這部法案到底要不要完成三讀我希望大家能夠坐下來好好的討論而不是用一下子就設定各種的一個你的看法"},{"start":4618.955,"end":4640.809,"text":"我再補充一下,如果說各位認為說我們在癱瘓我們的憲法法庭,讓大法官如果審查不通過的話,造成憲法法庭沒有辦法召開,其實我個人就很疑惑,那總統就趕快補提名啊,難道你一直讓不適任的大法官一直送到立法院,讓我們立法院照單全收嗎?"},{"start":4641.73,"end":4655.484,"text":"我們不是立法局我們要實質審查這些大法官到底有沒有專業學術有沒有專精是否超然獨立這才是重點而不是總統提名我們就一定要照單權說所以"},{"start":4657.626,"end":4679.171,"text":"最重要要把這個鑰匙打開的是總統你總統趕快補提名進來那我們依照總統提名的這些被提名的人審查然後我相信最後一定會通過我們的大法官那個人數不可能會造成所謂憲法法庭的一個癱瘓以上謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請鐘嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4687.7,"end":4716.816,"text":"主席因為第一輪發言我登記了一個會議詢問一個程序發言那剛剛是會議詢問會議詢問是就叫主席為何今日的會議並沒有邀請我們立法院號稱國會活字典的周冠藍秘書長那主席剛剛的裁示是說因為今天審的是憲法訴訟法只要司法院來就可以了那如果按照這個標準以後只有主管機關法條的主管機關來就好了其他的機關就不用來我想"},{"start":4717.276,"end":4738.765,"text":"不只是司法法制委員會其他各委員會只要跟所審定的法案相關的機關都得請求主席排定邀請他們來詢問我要說的今天司法院他們不是來備詢他們是就本院我們來要修改憲法訴訟法就司法院的立場提出說明"},{"start":4739.565,"end":4749.722,"text":"那如果是行政院只要我們審查的法條我們認為有必要相關他根據行政院對立法院負責有備詢之義務他就要來這邊做報告"},{"start":4750.802,"end":4773.198,"text":"那如果是立法院自己的秘書長呢那更不用講啦立法委員要請秘書長來講說明一下過去立法院對於現有總和怎麼認定的也是可以講但是呢既然主席認為說請中委員擔任輪值召委的時候再來排那我也樂於接納啦就像之前我們上一期在修立法院職員刑事法"},{"start":4773.558,"end":4773.658,"text":"主席"},{"start":4789.704,"end":4817.203,"text":"主席請求一下是不是剛剛前面有幾位委員有提到說是否為了慎重起見我們也來排一個公聽會為什麼呢因為大家口口聲聲說目前我們這個過去的這個憲判也好事件也好都是由民進黨總統提名民進黨國會多數都通過很抱歉在2003年陳水扁總統是第一次政黨輪替的少數總統"},{"start":4819.189,"end":4846.085,"text":"國會多數民進黨沒有喔民進黨沒有喔但是呢馬英九總統呢一上任他所提名的大法官包括在2008年11月1號就任的陳春生大法官完全是多數當選的馬英九總統國民黨外有國會多數的習慣要同意任命的到現在我們沒有對那個時期從二零這個"},{"start":4848.345,"end":4874.918,"text":"零八年的十一月一號到二零一五年這一批大法官的釋制我們都接受所以我們要清楚連陳水扁總統時候所任命的大法官也是國民黨跟其他在野政黨居多數的政黨所同意通過的所以現在千萬不要說這個大法官是誰的大法官我們就請啊包括陳孫生前大法官來稍微給我們示意一下"},{"start":4875.918,"end":4896.883,"text":"當所謂的不同時期的總統不同政黨的總統所提名經過國會多數任命的大法官他所做的釋制所做的憲判我們立法院有沒有憲法忠誠的義務必須要來遵守請求主席是不是我們在會議的程序我講一波主席都沒在聽不是因為還沒到時間還沒在聽啦"},{"start":4907.199,"end":4927.333,"text":"我的程序發言是說請求召開公聽會還是你又要叫我來開我跟你講中召委如果你要排什麼我們都尊重你要我請開公聽會跟我們怎麼這邊節奏我們我們訴訟法我排個公聽會你也同意就對了同意排公聽會"},{"start":4929.315,"end":4953.881,"text":"我們沒有同意不同意這個事情嘛你又不是受我指揮的人所以你要怎麼排你就排嘛你要怎麼排是你你自己決定嘛跟我有什麼關係若我是你的長官我就會叫你做什麼事但我不是嘛好不好再麻煩你你要怎麼決定我們都不干涉那我們下一位請洪森翰委員發言"},{"start":4969.045,"end":4991.793,"text":"主席那今天各位司法法制委員會的同仁我想今天所有在場的委員不分黨派我想大家心裡都非常清楚我們今天打算要審議的憲法訴訟法尤其是翁曉玲委員現在的提案"},{"start":4993.435,"end":5005.233,"text":"這真的是攸關臺灣民主憲政制度一個非常非常非常影響重大的修法如果今天國民黨沒有覺得他"},{"start":5006.887,"end":5031.392,"text":"這個影響很重大 其實今天大概也不會是這個陣容還要做牌子什麼的 那當然民進黨當然覺得這個影響非常重大我可以跟大家說 這不是只有藍綠或者是藍綠白三個政黨覺得影響重大連這個社會裡面 很多過去學習過法律 有法律專業 有訴訟經驗甚至申請過大法官釋憲的人 人民喔 都知道這"},{"start":5032.881,"end":5054.797,"text":"影響非常非常重大我只今天想問一個問題如果這麼重大的法案今天要在立法院裡面審議現在喔也許今天從國民黨的角度覺得哎呀你執政黨就是政治護航啦從民進黨的角度就覺得國民黨你們就是政治報復司法院啦"},{"start":5055.919,"end":5078.469,"text":"那為什麼不讓這個社會上面有法律專業有訴訟專業有法律素養的人一起到司法法制委員會的公聽會上面來談一談來評論一下為什麼今天國民黨跟翁曉玲不敢面對社會上面的法律專業者的評價如果敢面對我建議"},{"start":5084.622,"end":5085.33,"text":"就先排公聽會"},{"start":5087.202,"end":5116.431,"text":"也許今天翁曉玲委員可以找得到支持她的法律學者也許你也可以找得到但我認為讓這個社會上面對這件事情關心甚至是擔憂的人一起到委員會裡面用公聽會的形式正式公聽會的形式大家就來談嘛如果你覺得你的主張是對的為什麼不敢經過大家社會這些專業界的檢驗我要跟大家講這件事情已經影響很多法律專業界的恐慌了"},{"start":5120.245,"end":5137.873,"text":"我當然不是大法官但已經很多民間團體很多法律專業的組織現在正在連署甚至也召開記者會大家現在把這不是民進黨說的這些民間專業團體他說這是把人民訴訟權當做人質這是當作政治攻防的犧牲品這都是民進黨講的不是民進黨講的"},{"start":5147.984,"end":5170.654,"text":"如果你覺得民進黨就是政治護航那讓這些專業意見來委員會裡面講一講來評判一下今天林思明委員你也是律師啊請你的律師朋友請你贊成你的主張的一起到司法委員會來公聽會裡面大家來討論來辯論嘛為什麼國民黨不敢為什麼思明委員不敢為什麼翁曉玲委員不敢"},{"start":5174.707,"end":5191.781,"text":"讓專業者讓專業意見進來提供意見為什麼不敢?我當然要注意時間但我現在要講的事情是有上來這麼多的人關心這件事情憂慮這件事情讓這些憂慮的人或贊成的人也許有些人贊成我不知道我覺得可能很少"},{"start":5194.352,"end":5205.411,"text":"司法委員會來評論一下所以主持人我要說我們先召開公聽會這麼重大影響的法案必須力求審慎"},{"start":5207.742,"end":5226.412,"text":"必須經過社會專業界的檢驗就這麼簡單但我們現在看到國民黨只想硬幹在這些法律專業的法案裡面只想硬幹只想進行的他們憲法法庭這是我們現在看到國民黨正在幹的事情"},{"start":5228.902,"end":5244.176,"text":"麻煩一下各位委員注意一下時間待會我們第一輪的陳俊宇發言結束的時候我們先休息五分鐘然後我們大家稍微討論一下是不是開始需要進行第二輪謝謝各位接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":5259.708,"end":5281.46,"text":"主席各位委員那我們今天所要審查的這個條文其實連動已經建附二讀的相關的條文那對於這個憲法訴訟的這個制度會有重大的改變必須是以最審慎的這種態度來面對才對所以我們認為應該"},{"start":5284.622,"end":5303.817,"text":"是要先召開這個公聽會能夠廣邀這個憲法學者及各界的這些專家對於現行的這個憲法訴訟的制度的運作來進行廣泛的討論及深入的檢討在延商是否要對制度進行這個變動"},{"start":5305.538,"end":5326.625,"text":"而非再一次要透過這種人數的優勢將草案直接闖關並且為了避免這個憲法法庭發生無限期的空轉那停擺的情況也應該要先審查大法官的人事同意權來維護憲法法庭能夠正常的運作"},{"start":5328.001,"end":5343.783,"text":"如果說不先審查大法官人士就不應該要審查憲法的訴訟法案當我們立法院片面的去改變憲法法庭的可決"},{"start":5345.27,"end":5360.836,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會"},{"start":5371.92,"end":5394.534,"text":"造成司法權在行使職權上的障礙更可能會違反權利分立的原則我想切勿立法凌駕司法意圖要來癱瘓憲法法庭而立法院我們也有責任"},{"start":5396.812,"end":5419.866,"text":"行使這個職權盡快的對大法官人士來進行審查讓我們憲政機關能夠實質的這個程序正常運作避免憲政機關陷入空轉的這個窘境並且這個憲法訴訟的制度也不應該作為政治攻防的這個籌碼若憲法法庭真的不信被癱瘓"},{"start":5421.471,"end":5430.582,"text":"這不但是對人民訴訟的權益造成損害也會造成司法權無法制衡行政權及立法權的這種濫權行為導致權力間的這個制衡受到嚴重的破壞"},{"start":5437.029,"end":5460.044,"text":"憲政秩序將難以維持將落入憲政的危機而當這個違憲擴權的行為成為常態損害的將是台灣民主與法治所以在此我希望在野黨能夠所有的同仁能夠三思對於這個我們今天所要審查的這個相關的條文應該做審慎的評估"},{"start":5465.537,"end":5486.958,"text":"謝謝那下一位我們請審法會委員發言那審法委員發言結束後我們就休息五分鐘不是我剛剛有說就是我們第一輪發言完畢之後休息五分鐘大家討論一下是不是開啟第二輪的發言我剛剛有提到了"},{"start":5492.1,"end":5514.218,"text":"主席各位同仁我本來想說今天這個法案是國民黨掛羊頭賣狗肉的一個法案是掛憲法訴訟法的羊頭然後在賣貪患憲法法庭的狗肉結果沒想到剛剛聽了一輪不是餒不是餒他們是掛狗頭賣狗肉餒"},{"start":5515.859,"end":5520.043,"text":"他們上來就直接講了他們說我這個法跟憲法訴訟法沒有關係我這個法就是要癱瘓我們就是要癱瘓憲法法庭因為"},{"start":5526.687,"end":5548.076,"text":"因為這個賴總統提名的不失任的大法官所以在下個禮拜以後大法官只剩八席八席以後三分之二只剩幾個人幾個人來決定也就他們直接就他們提這個法案目的就是要癱瘓11月1號以後的大法官會議居然講得這麼明這讓我很驚訝讓我今天所準備的東西可能都沒有用了因為你們都直接承認你們就是要癱瘓憲法法庭"},{"start":5550.421,"end":5569.994,"text":"但是這所有的這些前提就是他們認為就他們說這個賴總統提名的大法官不適任啊應該要趕快賴總統要趕快再重新重新提名啊我們要照單全收嗎各位這些大法官提名人適任不適任是誰說了算啊是翁曉玲說了算嗎是林士敏說了算嗎還是Call in節目說了算還是地下電台說了算"},{"start":5576.642,"end":5596.467,"text":"當然不是嘛當然是立法院審查結果說的算嘛這些大法官提名人是任不是任不是我們在這裡說誰是任誰不是任而是最後到底是不是任是立法院審查之後有通過同意的他就是是任沒有不同意的他就是不是任這麼簡單的道理"},{"start":5599.631,"end":5619.78,"text":"所以今天國民黨所說的我覺得這個邏輯今天這個法案今天如果要修法很簡單他的前提就是因為提名的大法官不失任所以未來他會不足而那我們就大法官會的人事同意權先審啊先來看到底是不是像翁曉玲講的是不是像林思銘講的說都不失任呢"},{"start":5620.819,"end":5634.6,"text":"我們就來審查先審查大法官人事同意權如果頭頭不施認哇憲法法庭運作有他們擔心的說少數人來決定那我們再來修改這個也不遲阿以你們的人數多數一天就可以碾壓過阿"},{"start":5636.755,"end":5655.223,"text":"所以我希望主席我們要調整這個程序這個法案應該要在人事同意權審查之後再審查這個是不辨自明的他們自己也講的啦也講說他們今天提這個案的前提就是因為他們覺得現在所提名的人不適任那就來審查嘛"},{"start":5657.467,"end":5680.186,"text":"這個另外一個最重要的重點就是他們所講的這些解釋什麼憲法法院的判決講廢死啦講死刑啦講這個國會擴權啦各位憲法法院的判決不是只有這個而且這個是在裡面很少數大部分的憲法法院的判決都是攸關人民權益他是人民權益的最後救濟手段"},{"start":5681.067,"end":5700.936,"text":"我們今天癱瘓憲法法庭不是癱瘓他們做這些政有關他們關心的死刑跟這個國會擴權的解釋而已是剝奪了人民權益最終救濟手段我們用一條憲法訴訟法的修正再加上不審人這個人事同意權來剝奪中華民國國民的權益的最後救濟手段這樣對嗎以上"},{"start":5711.33,"end":5715.003,"text":"謝謝,那我們先休息五分鐘,然後大家討論一下"},{"start":6279.922,"end":6288.57,"text":"我們現在開始開會因為有委員提出說希望進行第二輪的程序發言那我們就麻煩到前面來登記"},{"start":6363.08,"end":6392.79,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6396.076,"end":6409.249,"text":"今天歐委員的提案我覺得恰如其分今天去考驗看看最早到法官的機制是要四分之三出席、三分之二通過不要忘了我們修憲的門檻是要四分之三、四分之三"},{"start":6418.763,"end":6435.127,"text":"各位這個大法官他是一個等於是一個正義的最後的一道防線門檻當然要高啊越高越好啊我再強調一遍修憲就要四分之三四分之三了為什麼你大法官這裡二分之一就可以了你現在來講的話只有八個大法官五個人就可以了是這樣子嗎"},{"start":6444.076,"end":6459.503,"text":"所以當然要以法定的為基礎嘛法定就是15個現在來看目前為什麼要修這個大家都很清楚嘛就大法官實現的結果違反台灣人多數的民意廢死就是啦表面沒有廢死實質廢死啦要三層三級的法官通通要贊成死刑才能夠死刑那不就等於廢死了嗎"},{"start":6474.71,"end":6492.602,"text":"所以現在來看的話這個大法官現在已經被抽掉了就是民進黨就是始作俑子他不要的法案他就是大法官大法官一方面當他小弟一樣"},{"start":6493.936,"end":6497.137,"text":"總預算卡在哪裡?總預算卡的就是你違法依法不並列啊!這個法我們知道很清楚就是行政院不要從3萬提高到6萬!"},{"start":6519.042,"end":6523.204,"text":"他不要的結果我們在這裏表決贏了我們通過了你要本事你絕對不能去接受那提復議啊國會改革你都提復議為什麼禁法補償你不提復議而且賴清德總統也公告了總統公告總統公告變成一個法律案變成一個法律案你就依法要編列啊結果他依法不編列"},{"start":6550.489,"end":6550.85,"text":"議員翁曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":6561.091,"end":6579.459,"text":"總預算高達三兆多二十幾億會這麼困難嗎你說我已經編好了不願意重編我們也可以給你很大的封編你只要卓榮泰院長公開跳出來說只要進入婦為進入審查我一定審定補給你追加給你預備金給你二十幾億給你就了啦"},{"start":6584.437,"end":6589.24,"text":"站出來講一句話覺得昨天晚上今天要查尾協商總預算昨天還在講一些要找仲裁官消保會消保官的仲裁那就是大法官會議然後呢不能不行的話餐廳該把我趕走如果這樣子的話剛才其他委員講你都讓他講很久了我再講一分鐘"},{"start":6612.739,"end":6618.582,"text":"這個卓榮泰這樣有沒有誠意啊他今天要朝野協商卓天峰那個帕 卓天峰那個帕什麼意思就是還是很強硬的要面對立法院我覺得這難道是大家心目中傳言中最會溝通的行政院長嗎是應該有這樣的態度嗎今天要出來協商卓天先態度擺出來 政章擺出來"},{"start":6639.784,"end":6656.682,"text":"希望在等給他倒戈他真的要離開行政院長都自己離開就好了這麼簡單的事情他只要一句話就走了所以我回來再強調一遍憲法的大法官被民進黨把他搞臭掉了"},{"start":6657.763,"end":6675.396,"text":"大埔根本社會最大的亂雲他只要一釋憲出來社會就亂社會就亂廢死就是最好的例子百分之八十的台灣大百姓反對廢死結果他做出那個實質廢死表面上沒有廢死實際上等於廢死的一個解釋令"},{"start":6676.357,"end":6701.071,"text":"老百姓不能接受啊大法官應該是最後的皇后徵召的捍衛者結果那些不是啊是捍衛民進黨的利益啊這才是令人不知的地方所以釜底抽薪我們需要回到原來憲法修憲十分之三 十分之三這樣子稍微調整一下回到翁曉玲今天的提案本席強力支持也希望社會各界來支持讓我們大法官"},{"start":6704.013,"end":6707.816,"text":"主席各位同仁我要再次強調癱瘓了憲法法庭架空了大法官影響的不是政黨利益影響的是全民的權利"},{"start":6731.451,"end":6740.526,"text":"我用憲法法庭新制跟舊制實質的數字我們都講數字不要造謠講謊話實質的數字來講新制就是"},{"start":6746.499,"end":6749.621,"text":"之後受理了1359件釋憲案這是憲法訴訟法修過之後的新制攸關人民申請的釋憲有1336件佔98%"},{"start":6763.14,"end":6786.536,"text":"救治修法前的救治受理了747件人民申請的有708件佔了95%所以從新制救治9乘5 9乘8憲法法庭解釋的都是攸關人民權利的議案比如說如果沒有憲法法庭的解釋我們不可能推動同婚法案"},{"start":6787.765,"end":6809.696,"text":"如果不是憲法法庭站在代理教師的權益來發聲代理教師跟專任教師的年資跟待遇不可能公平被對待這是人民的權利不是政黨的對立或是政黨的利益閹割了大法官就是對人民的權利開刀第二個我再講數字"},{"start":6811.357,"end":6828.489,"text":"在野黨的委員一直在說極端案例兩個三個大法官就可以解釋憲法好可怕會有單一觀點會有少數觀點決定了憲法的解釋在哪裡告訴我案例在哪裡就以憲法訴訟法修過之後"},{"start":6831.351,"end":6842.16,"text":"這幾年來48個申請釋憲案當中有11案大法官需要迴避跟自身的職責相關要迴避"},{"start":6844.403,"end":6869.12,"text":"只有這11個案迴避但是迴避當中的10個案都還有10位以上的大法官參與評議只有一案比較特殊也有9位大法官參與評議哪裡有兩位三位決定了憲法的生死跟解釋哪裡更何況48件裡面有37件是15位大法官全程參與請告訴我極端"},{"start":6872.822,"end":6890.126,"text":"案例少數觀點一個兩個三個大法官就決定了憲法的解釋案例在哪裡講出來講出來在哪裡並沒有啊今天你們的手牌叫做拒絕濫魚充數說得好去做做社會的民調剛剛賴委員說大法官是社會的亂源"},{"start":6900.325,"end":6903.152,"text":"立委恐怕才是社會的亂源吧"},{"start":6904.144,"end":6926.758,"text":"不斷的提違憲法案又害怕釋憲就修法來毀憲社會都在看誰在濫魚充數我最後來這一次如果要把先有緣而改為法定緣而整法有十個條文要修連動的是十個條文不是現在問委員提的少數的兩個條文三個條文而已"},{"start":6933.823,"end":6940.813,"text":"這需要全面來檢視今天很多委員都在講廢死廢死的這個議題社會確實關注"},{"start":6947.11,"end":6962.98,"text":"但是大法官的解釋死刑核限不要再製造社會的恐慌而立委負責任該做的是進行死刑核限之後的諸多修法譬如說要修刑法要修刑事訴訟法要修法院組織法"},{"start":6965.462,"end":6986.449,"text":"要修我們的監獄刑刑法我們開始來針對死刑核限啟動進步的修法我們共同這個是召委也同意的共同來推動無期徒刑不得假釋的終身監禁制度的配套這是立委要做的事而不是現在來修憲法訴訟法"},{"start":6988.691,"end":6998.609,"text":"剛剛林思明書記長說國民黨好啊趕快來選大法官同意權不反對啊非常好非常好再好也不過了"},{"start":6999.383,"end":7026.468,"text":"如果在野黨也同意也認同不要讓憲法法庭開天窗不要癱瘓憲法法庭那就優先即刻的啟動大法官人事同意權的審查透過審查如果你們認為有不適任的你們認為有賴於充數的行使你們的同意權你可以投下不同意票這是立委的法定職責這是我們的憲法忠誠義務"},{"start":7028.766,"end":7057.804,"text":"先審大法官人事同意權吧剛剛國民黨的黨編說要審會審那就先來審因為簽一法而動全身如果不先行使大法官同意權就搶修憲法訴訟法這就是此地無銀三百兩這就是明確的政治意圖你要讓憲法法庭永遠透過不行使大法官它永遠低於十個人只有八位"},{"start":7059.325,"end":7073.614,"text":"謝謝我再結論了所以這是你們綁好的一個套餐你們綁好的一個政治的作為不要自欺欺人司馬昭之心路人皆知"},{"start":7075.245,"end":7097.961,"text":"呼籲再呼籲先審大法官同意權再來研究討論憲法訴訟法是不是要修而修憲法訴訟法這麼嚴肅的事情過去從立法到第一次的修正都召開了公聽會這麼多的學者專家出面連署這麼多的法界人士出來譴責呼籲"},{"start":7100.163,"end":7100.483,"text":"下一位我們請鐘嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":7134.327,"end":7157.787,"text":"主席因為我們都是召委都會輪所以就跟召委之間我們互相的跟主席請教一下因為我發現我們這次第二輪的發言呢就把程序跟會議就把它融合為一體啦所以我要請教一下說我這一則要登記會議詢問我要再登記個程序發言說沒有現在會議詢問跟程序發言都次為一次那主席那我接下來的發言既有詢問也有程序的問題"},{"start":7158.663,"end":7186.648,"text":"那請問就叫主席剛剛我們提到說要邀請這個周萬來秘書長你說等到我當輪值召委當主席的時候我來排嘛你說就是這樣那我也覺得可以啊因為我覺得呢這個關於應有總和跟法定總和到底司法院跟立法院有沒有雙標有沒有因為立法院立法委員自己言以待人寬以律己那就雙標那我想邀請周萬來秘書長你說尊重我讓我來排"},{"start":7187.768,"end":7205.922,"text":"這是詢問是不是這樣子的意思主席不是啊我跟你講齁我很討厭別人在扭曲我的話我最初要請教你啊好那我現在跟你們說今天你是召委我也是召委那我要怎麼排我想說我尊重你可以建議尊重對我剛才詢問你建議你要怎麼排"},{"start":7206.562,"end":7211.985,"text":"接下來就是程序問題了,因為這個程序涉及到本席下周輪至昭文有沒有這個機會,我本來想要跟你說本周四我們來兌換一下,本周四就讓我來排,我就請周萬南秘書長來解釋一下什麼叫法定總和跟應用總和,現有總和怎麼認定。"},{"start":7235.996,"end":7244.852,"text":"那既然主席這麼慷慨那要不要我們本周是來換一下程序就是本周是我來排跟您對調可以嗎主席"},{"start":7247.335,"end":7254.884,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":7267.52,"end":7281.938,"text":"這不可能因為我們的都已經排好了可以啦兩天前變更就可以了啦不是程序上面可不可以而是每一個議程都非常的重要好很好我也認同那下週我來排你要怎麼排那個我們都不干涉嘛"},{"start":7282.378,"end":7282.618,"text":"陳修文主席"},{"start":7300.794,"end":7307.597,"text":"憲法訴訟法沒有法條在本委員會我們就沒有辦法排我知道翁曉玲委員還有一個憲法訴訟法第三十一條評議人數就是議決門檻的問題已經近乎二讀了所以委員會也沒有這個案子"},{"start":7315.6,"end":7316.66,"text":"我當然跟你請求阿因為今天程序你訂的阿不用阿"},{"start":7342.691,"end":7361.108,"text":"不是 你要怎麼排 我們都無權干涉嘛 你要怎麼排 我們都無權干涉啊 但是怎麼排必須一切依照我們這邊的法律規定 是的 那我提醒主席 我們希望如果這個問題這麼主席的認同這麼重要 你也尊重我下星期怎麼排"},{"start":7361.588,"end":7387.511,"text":"我希望我們憲法訴訟法在本委員會的討論讓我有機會下週來排公聽會。謝謝我聽不懂你的邏輯啦我跟你講我完全聽不懂中召委的邏輯也不要在那邊也不要在那邊曲解別人的話啦我的說法很簡單就是中召委要排什麼會議的議程那我們都無權干涉就這麼簡單"},{"start":7389.013,"end":7390.594,"text":"下一位我們麻煩審法會委員發言"},{"start":7418.335,"end":7436.053,"text":"主席各位同仁我想經過剛才這樣子討論我想我們就來釐清林志明委員還留在這裡非常好就是你剛剛上去你也代表國民黨黨團的幹部你剛剛上去你講說今天之所以要修這個法就是因為提名的大法官不是任對不對你是這樣講"},{"start":7437.93,"end":7467.168,"text":"但是我剛剛也講了這大法官究竟是任不是任不是你林思明說的算對當然不是你說的算對大家投票沒有錯啊大家怎麼投票就是要經過同意權的審人事同意權審查嘛人事同意權審查之後大家如果人事同意權這個人事我們通過了這個大法官通過了就表示他失任這個大法官不通過就表示他不失任這個才是失任不失任不是地下電台或call in節目或者是翁曉玲講或者是林思明講嘛對不對所以"},{"start":7468.51,"end":7489.731,"text":"我認為說,所以這個是你們今天說為什麼要修這個法的理由?那所以到底適不適任呢?我們就先來審人事同意權嘛。人事同意權審完了,哇!全部通通,如果說你們全部國民黨全部通通把它否決了,全部都不,大家都,你們國民黨認為都不適任。好,那就那才進入說那怎麼辦?人數不夠了,我們是不是要來修?"},{"start":7490.768,"end":7494.332,"text":"修這個憲法訴訟法這個道理就是這樣子啊為什麼會在還沒有經過人事統一權審查之前就先來審這個憲法訴訟法呢本末導致這個成語就是這樣子"},{"start":7507.352,"end":7526.869,"text":"完全就本末倒置所以我希望我們今天這個法案就暫時先停止審查我們趕快讓人事同意來進入看是不是如你們所講的這些大法官都是不適任的大法官我們就來審查嘛然後最後用國會用國家法定的機制來決定他們到底適不適任嘛這是第一點第二點"},{"start":7528.342,"end":7553.482,"text":"我剛剛上就講了這個你們現在這樣用這種方式來癱瘓11月1號以後的憲法法庭他癱瘓的不是政治他不是說癱瘓了民進黨希望怎麼樣都不是憲法法庭的判決我再講一次他是人民人民的權益的最終救濟手段我們所有的這些憲法法院的判決剛剛吳志耀委員也有講"},{"start":7555.408,"end":7574.124,"text":"從我們改制成憲法法庭判決之後98%的申請案都是人民申請的不是黨團或者是政府機關申請98%都是人民申請的我們今天癱瘓了你只癱瘓掉你們想要癱瘓那兩趴行政院提出申請的黨團提出申請的立法院提出申請你們想要癱瘓這兩趴卻癱瘓掉98%的人民申請的權益"},{"start":7579.384,"end":7607.87,"text":"這些東西他整個攸關於什麼他過去的這些憲法法院的判決他攸關代理教師的薪資他包括這些付稅的權益包括所有權的這土地所有權的保障包括工作權的保障包括食品衛生的相關法令規定這些通通是過去零零總總五花八門人民的權益攸關甚至攸關公益的這些食品衛生安全的相關的這些都是憲法法院判決過去判決的這些東西"},{"start":7608.63,"end":7625.395,"text":"今天如果憲法法院被你們癱瘓了未來所有的這些我剛剛所講的這些復稅權益人民退休撫恤相關的薪資這些食品安全的相關法令這些土地所有權保障工作權保障等等這些人民權益的救濟管道就被你們癱瘓了所以我在懇求我們委員會我希望說我們不要本末倒置就如你們所講的你們認為大法官不適任那我們就趕快來審查大法官"},{"start":7638.781,"end":7658.278,"text":"這個前提發生之後才有到底憲法訴訟法要不要修的問題所以我們今天應該停止審查這個法案我們先來就人事同意權來看看這些大法官是不是如翁曉玲所講是不是如林思明所講的不適任我們趕快先來審嘛以上好謝謝那我們下一位請翁曉玲委員發言"},{"start":7667.796,"end":7681.919,"text":"我先很感慨在立法院這個場合裡面確實是看到許多沒有法律素養又不用功的委員在那裡講一些五四三的話我想首先講的誰能夠在座的有任何一個委員能夠保證這次大法官會全員通過嗎?"},{"start":7692.645,"end":7707.534,"text":"如果說審了之後只有一個通過兩個通過或是根本沒有人通過的時候那時候才再來修法不覺得太慢了嗎我們現在10月31號之後10月1號起就有7位大法官卸任那麼只剩下8位大法官是留任的"},{"start":7712.403,"end":7740.059,"text":"就像我們剛剛講的如果說還扣除掉一些迴避的大法官那可能接下來會有少只有極少數的這個大法官會參與開會參與做成評議這個案例之前就有過啊剛剛吳四陽委員說你不知道說哪些大法官有迴避有什麼案子我告訴你110年的憲判這12號台大法學院教師評鑑案當時有多少位大法官迴避"},{"start":7741.482,"end":7757.314,"text":"六位迴避很好謝謝審判會委員真的代表你還是有在讀點書喔那我要講的現在的大法官剩下的八位即將11月1號只剩下八位大法官裡面有幾位台大畢業的審委員你知道嗎"},{"start":7762.549,"end":7774.515,"text":"有五位大法官是台大畢業,所以到時候又被申請迴避呢?所以有五位被申請迴避,只剩下三位大法官。那所以呢兩位就可以作成決議喔。"},{"start":7776.601,"end":7798.05,"text":"我必須講這個就是一個不合理的制度我們現在保障什麼我們現在保障人民的憲法的這個訴訟的救濟權利司法院不要在那邊講什麼這個混淆視聽的話立法委員民進黨立法委員也不用說那些什麼會侵害損害人民的憲法救濟權我要再舉個數字我們一年大概有四五千件的人民申請事件案"},{"start":7806.291,"end":7831.361,"text":"一百一十二年被駁回率就是大法官不受理的案件的比率高達百分之九十二一百一十一年則是百分之九十七的人民的申請事件案件是不受理的以現在一百一十一年跟一百一十二年兩個年度來看大法官一年只做二十個憲法裁判哪只做二十個憲法判決"},{"start":7832.813,"end":7852.005,"text":"能夠被大法官選中去審查的鳳毛麟角所以不要在那裡說為什麼損害人民基本權利15個大法官的時候他的不受理率都高達92%現在只剩下8個大法官你認為他有足夠的能力再去審查那麼多案子嗎我告訴你到時候不不受理率會更高我要再講的就是這個案子"},{"start":7859.393,"end":7883.785,"text":"明定憲法法庭大法官人數把它定在15人這是我們憲法的要求啊我只修這個條文我有修說是跟迴避的人數要扣除嗎?也要算在內嗎?沒有啊所以今天司法院的報告書也是亂寫我不客氣的講要奉承上意也不是奉承上意到這種程度最後"},{"start":7888.032,"end":7904.178,"text":"一個很簡單的事情一個很簡單的條文從過去的法治史上面到現在很多的法律學者都有投書在清楚不過的道理民進黨委員就是要不斷的拖延程序杯葛議事"},{"start":7905.598,"end":7912.843,"text":"今天是說他們沒有霸佔主席台啦也沒有起肢體衝突這邊我要感謝他們可是呢不斷的議事的發言討論然後還要開公聽會什麼的就是很清楚的事情不要拿那些什麼一大堆什麼律師團體去連署的國會改革法案不是一樣嗎上百位什麼學者律師團體連署都是你們的側翼啊不好意思說真的是就是這樣"},{"start":7933.275,"end":7942.801,"text":"有多少的支持的學者你為什麼沒有邀請沒有去聽他們的意見以上我希望今天的案子還是能夠順利的進入真正的討論"},{"start":7952.377,"end":7965.969,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們在場的委員我乾脆我就來回應一下翁曉玲委員剛你的這一些一番談話其實我剛剛第一次上來發言我說你對你的提案"},{"start":7966.67,"end":7982.349,"text":"他也不是完全沒有道理讓他更完備你說有更高的一個門檻大家去及時廣益我是首先去肯認修法方向不是完全沒有道理可是我剛聽你講完以後我就發現你講的又完全沒有道理了"},{"start":7983.11,"end":8007.778,"text":"為什麼說完全沒有道理?你現在剛剛提到說你這一年你兩年裡面四十幾件那一年變成二十幾件那如果是二十幾件你就已經嫌它非常少了你這個再把它高門檻的話那我告訴你造成當事人更大的一個不利益。稍微林士平委員大法官會議解釋出來到底是要幹什麼?"},{"start":8009.107,"end":8031.96,"text":"很簡單啊從過去大法官會議到現在的憲法法庭所做出來的判決第一個一定是去補充到底你這個三級三審裡面你這個法律的正當程序有沒有去嚴守嘛所以我們常常會去講大法官或者是現在的憲法法庭會跟你講說你這個整個法律的正當程序你沒有去遵守"},{"start":8033.154,"end":8036.815,"text":"長長會看到這個第二個你就會看到說哎呦救濟無門啊那怎麼辦怎麼辦普通法院跟跟這個軍事法院做出來的判決會不一樣那大法官會把你整個原判決把你給廢棄掉讓你再重新去做一個更審這大家很清楚的"},{"start":8052.641,"end":8072.741,"text":"甚至於憲法法庭做出來的判決內容裏面提供當事人一個救濟的管道說好你用我憲法法庭的判決的一個意旨你可以去申請再審就三個嘛所以任何不管是過去的大法官會議解釋或現在的憲法法庭所做出來的判決裏面其實你可以去挑剔他"},{"start":8076.184,"end":8083.266,"text":"可是呢他達到一個叫做救濟人民救濟的一個功能啊我剛為什麼去肯認二委員的一個提案就是說其實你要講說高的一個門檻裡面啊讓他更多元的一個聲音我不能去講你不對啊所以我才跟你講說我可以去肯認你的一個用心但是也不要忘記啊那不是真理啊你說你留學德國"},{"start":8105.336,"end":8129.503,"text":"德國的憲法法庭幾個人?九個欸!九個欸!講錯了!德國是15到16美國、加拿大跟韓國他們明文規定的他們憲法法庭的法官是九個我們在徵修條文裡面我們也放了15個"},{"start":8131.533,"end":8146.864,"text":"德國波蘭捷克15到16這個修正我把美國的放到那個地方去但是他們的15到16裡面你要記住喔他們是分庭喔他們也不是一次15到16去做合議喔"},{"start":8148.171,"end":8149.072,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":8169.164,"end":8179.689,"text":"你怎麼警察可以看到酒駕的部分你就給人家抓來抽血所以呢要求做出的憲法判決要求我們立法院去限期修法改正這對不對這當然對嘛我們就把它給改正過來了嘛所以就是剛我提到的所謂的補充正當程序嘛"},{"start":8187.313,"end":8197.898,"text":"另外你去看看說道法官在去年做出的一個異國的父母到底可不可以把壽司先務權這些小孩把他帶到國外去道法官說ちょっと待會兒所以他去做出一個暫時的處分這對不對 這當然也對阿他就把你的原財定給廢棄掉提供當事人更好的一個救濟的途徑阿接下來就跟我講的花蓮那一個判決啦"},{"start":8214.386,"end":8227.455,"text":"所以我要講出來的就是說每一次立法院只要你覺得說憲法法庭或大法官會議做出來不符合立法院的一個這個意思的話你就要修理人家上次你說1999年立法院就去擴權就去自肥國大自己去自肥把國大自己"},{"start":8239.042,"end":8264.215,"text":"自己延期然後立法委員自己也賺到就變成國大跟立委一起一起大家來自肥那大法官當然把你宣告你違憲啊宣告違憲以後我們就給人家砍說我人我把你廢掉大法官會議我砍你的薪水啊到最後呢到最後呢民意還是會反撲啦但是我是覺得說大家還是講講道理啦涉及到這麼大的一個衝擊的一個案件"},{"start":8265.336,"end":8292.914,"text":"有道理就好好講多聽聽社會的一個意見否則的話我們去看看30跟另外在我們院會裡面30跟43這個雙三分之二這個部分已經近乎二讀了已經近乎二讀了所以我期待這個地方可以啊都多聽聽外界的一個看法謝謝謝謝總委員那下一位我們請謝榮介委員發言"},{"start":8312.158,"end":8324.166,"text":"主席 大家好我想修改這個法律啦 阿沒這麼恐怖 也不用這麼緊張啦一個心態 剛才 雖然說要多聽一些民意 是啊我們就是聽到民意後 今天要修改這個法律啦"},{"start":8340.509,"end":8356.943,"text":"大法官在法律施行的時候有聽民意,他說不免耶,聽什麼民意啊。再來,大家都認為說,要比較嚴謹來看待這個法律的修正。合理?合正?那麼,在憲法的修正的時候,需要有四分之三,"},{"start":8367.308,"end":8370.649,"text":"立法委員出席四分之三的通過這是更加高標準那麼現在修法三分之二的出席三分之二的通過是剛好而已啊而且在過去憲法的解釋裡面也絕大多數都有超過三分之二啦"},{"start":8396.749,"end":8403.252,"text":"問題來了我們的執政黨用蕭苓之心賭君主之白原來您想法就是要針對新的大火鍋來賠錢怎麼會這樣想呢?您怎麼會這麼不小心剩下的地幣呢?您怎麼會知道它拿出來的這個大火鍋不會通過呢?不然主謀是誰啊?"},{"start":8427.779,"end":8430.561,"text":"如果他拿出來都是臨終其良風．有可能立法院會沒通過．會沒通過就是這的人有問題．所以大家好好來審查．那年對今天 您的表達三分之一哪有什麼困難啊．就過去的案例來看 到時候也有通過超過三分之一啊．為什麼要有這個意識的對抗．"},{"start":8457.163,"end":8468.751,"text":"對於要用什麼其他審查的修法,那時候是要拜什麼會都沒關係啦,我個人或人為可以啦。但是不要用意識之爭,帶來一個修法的改良嘛。尤其不是只有在事務委員會,不是只有在立法院的。現在參事務委員會跳下來,參行政委員會跳下來,"},{"start":8482.403,"end":8494.193,"text":"現在大法官我已經對你很感冒,但是我個人不會因為我對你一個案的不滿意,就來針對同案,來對你一樣的看,我不會這樣做。三分之一你跟我說真的、真的、真的不懂,來我請教你。大法官在那四人的解說,標準是掛油頭不夠肉,這麼厲害。"},{"start":8511.926,"end":8534.294,"text":"哇!私刑是合憲!他現在給我們解說私刑合憲喔!不會給你設定八個關卡!再來,因為要拍攝一個人的性命是非常非常嚴謹!所以必須要歡迎我一對關!八分之八通過耶!不是四分之三,不是三分之二!"},{"start":8535.609,"end":8560.861,"text":"啊如果這樣對憲法的解說要審討嗎?當然要啊!這樣再提出一個三分之一而已,你還不確定?靠差勁咧!啊,嫌疑如人,懷疑大忌!這種事在社會說不過了!你想,你再去問問這裡的大法官,你如果收過三分之一,他會抵禁我們行嗎?沒有啊!"},{"start":8561.986,"end":8586.626,"text":"所以 大家平衡心內啦 不能對事情沒信心啦 沒信心你們就設定說 哇 提這7個人一定不會過奇怪 我們如果不說不會過 你們看民進黨沒信心 你們就說他們不會過所以 不可依曉玲之心度君主之白 對提案要有信心 心渣大家好好來講 講得清楚 不用怕 這樣好不好"},{"start":8591.752,"end":8592.473,"text":"沈博洋委員"},{"start":8622.078,"end":8644.896,"text":"沈博洋第二次發言那剛剛這個翁委員說這個是不是沒有念書啦什麼等等之類的他結果已經跑出去了我覺得你還是先問問你旁邊的剛剛謝龍介委員一直在講三分之二那他是不是搞錯一件事情了三分之二的部分已經進負二讀了今天我們是在討論什麼我們今天是在討論現有總額跟法定總額的問題"},{"start":8646.417,"end":8663.67,"text":"已經一個禁覆二讀的為什麼禁覆二讀也講不清楚結果剛剛洋洋灑灑講了整整三分鐘全部都要講這一個規定就已經被你們禁覆二讀了所以我覺得這其實是一種很不認真做功課的委員然後連我們現在在討論什麼事情都不知道"},{"start":8664.29,"end":8683.285,"text":"這就跟那個那時候國會濫權法案國會擴權法案一樣復婚期委員一上來講了一個什麼無法結果跟我們今天討論的一個案子一點關係都沒有所以我拜託國民黨委員先做一點功課然後再來討論好不好然後再來第二個我想要講的事情就是剛剛一直在講說我們是不是認為說可能大法官人士會被擋"},{"start":8685.126,"end":8702.427,"text":"他們一直在玩一個話術說今天只有少數的大法官能夠做決定但今天少數大法官能夠做決定的前提是什麼就是因為你不審大法官的人事權你不審大法官人就少人就少當然變比較少人這其實是一個很簡單的邏輯"},{"start":8704.089,"end":8723.252,"text":"結果這個時候不管是翁委員還是剛剛的謝委員都一直在強調說我們預設請大家只要倒帶回去聽一下就知道剛剛翁委員的發言他從頭到尾預設的就是只剩八位大法官他從頭到尾預設的就是我們這一現在新的被提名的不會通過"},{"start":8724.073,"end":8750.45,"text":"所以我還是要再講一次我們民進黨沒有預設立場我們只希望能夠來討論你不喜歡這些人士你可以投下不同意票你實質的不去審人數就變少人數又變少你淨富二獨的門檻用提高然後你再把現在的現有跟法定總額做改變那你到最後就一定會出問題嘛會議就會開不成嘛這就是癱瘓司法院的做法這就是完全不尊重權力分立的做法"},{"start":8751.03,"end":8770.541,"text":"最後我還是要再講一下說什麼少數的人做決定這件事情告訴Marbury跟Madison這個案件當時只有幾個大法官才有五位啊五位大法官就做出了一個經典的這一個司法違憲的一個審查的一個權利的這個判決請問有人質疑他的正當性嗎 沒有嘛"},{"start":8771.401,"end":8796.39,"text":"再更不要講說我們今天在講說大法官到底有沒有民意基礎這件事情這跟國民黨之前在店家講的其實一模一樣什麼事情都一定要講民意基礎那我們今天人民是不是乾脆大家來投票投完票說我們今天從今天開始大家都不要繳電費也不要繳水費為什麼反正因為民意決定一切決定一切完之後專業決定是什麼不是很重要嗎"},{"start":8797.23,"end":8813.164,"text":"大法官今天存在在這個世界上是因為他的專業的立場而這個專業的立場不容易被抹滅但今天呢國民黨用非常非常簡化的一個方式就把民粹式的語言套在大法官的身上我還是必須要講"},{"start":8814.105,"end":8843.662,"text":"今天大法官守護人權我們民進黨也守護人權這跟大法官是綠的就沒有什麼關係啊那就是剛好我們兩個都站在守護人權的這一方而已啊如果國民黨今天認為應該要守護人權那大法官也會站在你這一邊啊如果我們認同要權力分立大法官也會站在你這一邊啊如此簡單的事情卻會搞成這個樣子然後又不做功課連到底哪一些法案禁覆二讀都搞不懂我是覺得這個討論可以不用繼續下去了"},{"start":8848.574,"end":8851.235,"text":"謝謝,那我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席我還是要非常懇切的請求既然在野黨的委員也說大法官人事同意權可以審該審要排審那就趕快來進行都不要預設立場"},{"start":8877.259,"end":8904.328,"text":"如果你們認為有濫餘充數你們認為有不適任或是你們認為是綠有有你們認為哪方面有問題就透過審查在審查的時候立委可以跟大法官我們也可以提出問題直求對決啊有在黨的委員最喜歡找大法官辯論很好啊直求對決就來審查不要害怕"},{"start":8905.41,"end":8920.506,"text":"如果立委認為你可以很明確的指出哪一個大法官不適任的理由那就上質詢台你現場給他難看沒有關係大家就專業比專業所以憲法訴訟法要審查"},{"start":8923.386,"end":8951.627,"text":"這是一個套餐我說過這是一個套餐如果今天搶修了憲法訴訟法通過了你們的以法定原額來代表取代現有原額再搭配現在禁服二讀要三分之二才可以來決議、評議那麼更合理化你們不行使大法官同意權因為就八個人讓他永遠開不了會憲法法庭就關門了"},{"start":8953.939,"end":8967.016,"text":"我委員在這邊您是留德的剛剛我也再一度的去確認相關的訊息德國的大法官16位但他們分兩庭審理"},{"start":8968.117,"end":8994.868,"text":"一停八位依他們不同的專業分工所以德國也是三分之二出席二分之一就可以決定但是他的基數變成八位比台灣的十五位當中扣除迴避的二分之一遠低於台灣你們說小數觀點單一觀點呢好好去研究你留學的德國制度"},{"start":8995.868,"end":9002.493,"text":"看看美國制度美國的大法官九位八位九位他們一樣二分之一一決如果就在野黨說的兩三位就決定了這個是何其的偏頗那麼好好去檢視其他民主國家的運行經驗"},{"start":9021.55,"end":9042.589,"text":"退換不言,剛剛羅志強委員不在場我再一次不厭其煩跟您報告跟說明從來並不存在少數兩三位就可以來定憲法解釋生死這種極端案例從來不存在你舉個例子來聽聽"},{"start":9044.19,"end":9065.239,"text":"你舉個例子哪一個大法官的審議是兩位三位就決定了我再一次不厭其煩的跟你報告新制之後2019憲法訴訟法完成修訂立法之後48個憲法法庭受理的案件有37案是15位大法官全員參與包括討論跟評議"},{"start":9069.292,"end":9081.473,"text":"三十七案四十八案當中有三十七案是十五位另外有十一案不是因為大法官不願意來是因為基於法定他又要迴避"},{"start":9082.509,"end":9108.07,"text":"所以迴避的11個案子當中有10個案子參與評議的委員大法官還是高於10位的只有一個案子因為有部分迴避的需要唯一only one一個案例有九位大法官參與評議而九位大法官的二分之一也是五位啊這是史上唯一的一案"},{"start":9108.991,"end":9110.653,"text":"你們說的既然極端案例在哪裡你舉一個案例來聽聽一個就好一個就好就數字說話哪一個案例哪一個判例"},{"start":9121.385,"end":9133.008,"text":"最後還是要懇切的說癱瘓了憲法法庭沒有辦法審議的是98%的人民申請憲法的解釋案這是人民的權利新制之後98% 1336件是人民權利申請憲法解釋"},{"start":9147.955,"end":9166.861,"text":"如果憲法法庭沒了癱瘓了組不成了連受理都沒有辦法大家想看看任何進步性的憲政觀點沒有辦法在台灣民主社會法治社會被實現想想同婚法案就好"},{"start":9168.103,"end":9177.131,"text":"同婚法案多少年輕世代台灣進步性的思維台灣成為亞洲第一個讓同婚合法的國家"},{"start":9178.362,"end":9200.934,"text":"如果灣委員現在強行把現有原額法定原額然後提高到三分之二通婚法案沒有辦法通過那跟本案無關齁可不可以跟本案無關的話那為什麼今天本案有講廢死嗎本案有講廢死嗎本案有欸你怎麼可以指著我的發言跟本案無關剛剛一堆委員跟來那個你先聽我講一下齁你先聽我講一下"},{"start":9210.216,"end":9236.645,"text":"我跟你們講齁我跟你們講如果你三分鐘內你要講什麼我沒有意見那現在已經超過後面還有兩位委員那可不可以不要停好那我們下一位我們下一位請林思敏委員發言那這樣子請主席都不得提啊都不得講啊那請主席是不是都不可以在這裡"},{"start":9237.972,"end":9262.255,"text":"是不是主席要才是要公平要合理要公平要合理我只求一個公平只求一個合理時間到了時間已經延長很久我一直讓你們講我讓大家都講那時間延長那麼久我剛剛已經一直提醒然後超過時間了那不要一直談跟本案好那那個我們麻煩林世民我發言"},{"start":9264.718,"end":9291.573,"text":"時間到了你就再登記下一次再發言請不要故意破壞議事的進行好謝謝主席主席我想我今天綜合我們各位委員的一個發言其實有兩個觀點我也非常贊同包含我們莊惠雄委員或者剛才吳世陽委員都認為說憲法法庭的參與評議的這個大法官應該是要多數要多元"},{"start":9293.038,"end":9294.939,"text":"三位四位三位四位三位四位三位四位三位四位三位四位"},{"start":9314.889,"end":9329.869,"text":"其實我想就是為什麼我們要修這個法我們就希望說所有的大法官的憲法裁判至少都要十位左右來參與所以過去都是九到十位你剛才講的都是九到十位的大法官來參與評議"},{"start":9332.632,"end":9353.164,"text":"所以我們現在是把這個法治化今天的修法就是把這個立法漏洞把它修法把它補起來讓我們所有的大對就15席至少有10位來參與所以今天把這個漏洞把它補起來因為過去至少都有9到10位來參與裁判"},{"start":9354.878,"end":9370.547,"text":"但是萬一哪一天我們講說就是真的只有三到四位來要來這個參與就可以達到我們憲法的一個平易的一個門檻這個是很危險的我想我們大多數的委員應該是贊同的我們"},{"start":9371.607,"end":9398.06,"text":"不希望就是大法官的評議只有少數三位四位大法官的一個意見我想這個是真的我剛才一直提到這對我們民主法制的發展憲政的發展真的是非常的危險最後我要再講一下對於人事的審查我想我們一直強調對於大法官人事的審查考試委員人事的審查NCC委員的審查我們從來沒有反對"},{"start":9399.381,"end":9421.646,"text":"但是大法官人事為什麼拖到現在沒有辦法審查就是因為你們提出對我們的立法院職權刑事法你們對於這個人事審查的權利的這個法案你們提出大法官的解釋要到25號才整個解釋才會出來所以到底這個人事的審查是要適用舊法還是用修法"},{"start":9422.574,"end":9439.725,"text":"因為新法被你凍結了啊所以才會遲遲沒有辦法去做審查所以這個源頭始作俑者是誰啊這一黨完全願意審查大法官的人事案只是到底要是用舊法還是新法因為新法被凍結了嘛才會產生這種情況嘛"},{"start":9443.297,"end":9453.258,"text":"所以你們要口口聲聲一直說我們拒絕審查大法官的人士本黨從來就沒有這樣子來做那另外就是今天的修法"},{"start":9454.411,"end":9470.076,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及"},{"start":9485.555,"end":9486.335,"text":"中加兵委員發言"},{"start":9516.605,"end":9538.84,"text":"主席謝謝吼其實呢本席剛剛在第二輪的時候呢就剛剛前一次發言的時候啊跟主席的探討即是程序也是詢問因為我們司法法制委員會啊只要出現這種情況就是大黨邊副總召在場的時候呢就開始意識的說可能就會停止討論了可能就是要直接表決要"},{"start":9539.68,"end":9557.175,"text":"送出委員會了我們希望司法法制委員會就憲法訴訟法他是一個重要的法案那麼既然剛剛討論有人提出說在進行審查之前我們來召開公聽會主席表示說不反對如果輪到我排案我來排公聽會他也接受"},{"start":9558.277,"end":9581.178,"text":"甚至於說我們排行來審查的時候我們邀請那個周冠萊周秘書長到我們委員會來做說明說明到底憲法機關立法院的總額他是怎麼去計算的那跟司法院大法官憲法法庭他的現有總額或者法定總額是怎麼來的這可以好好探討"},{"start":9581.898,"end":9582.359,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":9607.096,"end":9629.701,"text":"本席是準備好很多啦,準備好17頁,這是詢答的時間,待會我們在這個程序發言,如果都已經處理完畢了,那麼既然大家都準備來了,那大家做詢答,我想這也是讓大家社會知道各界"},{"start":9630.68,"end":9647.75,"text":"不同的意見對於憲法訴訟法到底有什麼看法其實剛剛我們在很多程序發言當中已經有略略的都討論到了但是因為主席限定只有三分鐘我也不再想超過所以我準備的資料就沒有進入了這些內容來互相探討"},{"start":9648.59,"end":9670.848,"text":"我還是很誠懇的希望不只在場的召委主席也希望國民黨的總召大黨編副總召能夠明確的來保障我們在委員會裡面有充分的意見交換待會我們不管程序發言也好還是其他的對於內容我們的意見交換也好我們都能夠讓"},{"start":9672.386,"end":9689.762,"text":"本委員會能夠在下週未來持續的進行直到有完成公聽會為止。主席請問可以接受這樣的一個請求嗎?或者我們的副總召可以答應這樣的一個請求嗎?因為現在你們人數啊顯然多數嘛,你們在這裏表決又是停止討論,就是要繼續。"},{"start":9699.432,"end":9720.291,"text":"你剛的問題是這樣嘛你說我也不反對但是我的意思是說你要怎麼排你的議程我都沒有意見以前啊你們就是出委員會我想排也沒得排啊依照我們議法院的內規只要這個法案出委員會其他的召委想排都不能排也不能排公聽會也不能排其他"},{"start":9723.152,"end":9747.38,"text":"我跟你講齁我我不是因為你剛講那樣我其實聽了我不是很認同啦你聽了我都不認同你希望今天就出委員會除非我口齒不清不然我剛講的很清楚就是你排什麼議你今天要出委員會副總裁下令你今天要出委員會跟那個立法院執行司法一樣你現在就是要副總裁下令今天你照國立法院執行司法今天要出委員會"},{"start":9749.241,"end":9768.363,"text":"不是我跟你講你上次說什麼我受誰指示然後今天又說副總召來一邊指揮我跟你講講那就沒意思了我在這邊再跟中召委報告一次再跟中召委報告一次中召委你是前輩我再跟你報告一次我不受任何人的指揮很好"},{"start":9768.883,"end":9796.741,"text":"我跟你一樣你也不受任何人指揮嘛我們都一樣啊還是你要在這邊告訴我你都在進行指揮我們都不受任何人的指揮我們就在這邊把立法院的工作做好就這樣而已嘛啊不要每次都扣帽子扣我的帽子所以你今天不會受副總統的要求今天出委員會他根本沒有跟我講什麼啊我講這個莫名其妙他現在打電話在你手機留言了我的手機沒有任何來電啦你不要在那邊亂亂製作戰啦"},{"start":9799.384,"end":9814.05,"text":"我的手機沒有任何人的來電 你不要認知作戰 這樣不太好啦不管啦 省委員你講你的認知作戰不要講那些啦齁"},{"start":9818.379,"end":9830.688,"text":"我跟你講齁又來了不要今天我們是司法法制委員會不要在那邊扯什麼國家什麼有的沒有不要再扯我們可不可以把今天議程走完"},{"start":9835.505,"end":9857.941,"text":"中委員我已經回答完畢了我們就做我們個人該做的事那你也不要在那邊亂扯說什麼要打電話來跟我指示沒有那個事啦中召委那個發言的時間到了嘛沒有意見那請問那我們就依據先前宣告的我們就先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10721.314,"end":10749.646,"text":"我們現在接續議程的進行那我們現在有收到委員羅志強等人提停止程序發言請問在場的委員有沒有異議?不是,我不懂有委員提案的話那我可以不處理嗎?"},{"start":10756.434,"end":10778.005,"text":"五委員你懂不懂議事規則如果今天有委員提案的話那主席要不要處理我想我應該沒有做錯吧這跟聽誰有什麼意見如果是爛招也是跟民進黨學的啦好啦那我們現在進行那個表決好了齁"},{"start":10784.292,"end":10785.312,"text":"好,那"},{"start":10822.324,"end":10833.473,"text":"我們就先進行表決因為剛剛已經說明說已經有異議了那我們表決前我們先清點在場人數麻煩議事人員先清點"},{"start":10839.974,"end":10843.475,"text":"反對不討論就強行表決反對不討論就強行表決反對不討論又要往前推進"},{"start":10868.43,"end":10883.796,"text":"國會濫權的濫交又來了!國會濫權的濫交又來了!又強行演壓了!主席裁定!歷史記錄嗎?你是要強行演壓學法律的人要貪換憲法法庭!那依立法院各委員會組織法第十條規定可否同訴時取決於主席"},{"start":10898.141,"end":10898.301,"text":"主席會議詢問"},{"start":10916.953,"end":10933.267,"text":"是不是 會議詢問 我可以問你程序進行到什麼時候 這本來就是會議進行當中很正當的一件事情嘛 我要告訴你就是剛剛那個提案 那個表決的內容根本就無效 對有效一半而已啊 你要對有效一半而已啊 會議詢問為什麼我不能詢問呢 我要問你 你待會要進行什麼 待會我就不能問了 這麼多"},{"start":10944.212,"end":10947.814,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":10976.11,"end":10976.25,"text":"議員翁曉玲"},{"start":11003.24,"end":11014.115,"text":"不然這樣好了啦齁那如果說那個專委員如果說我們要你認為剛剛的程序有問題那沒關係齁那沒關係齁那這樣我跟各位報告一下"},{"start":11015.807,"end":11035.802,"text":"我們跟各位報告一下依據立法院議事規則第32條第1項其實有提到會議詢問也可以由主席因為決定的宣告那如果這樣的話那這個部分我就宣告現在都先停止會議詢問好不好那我們就依據議事規則第32條第1項的規定"},{"start":11043.812,"end":11059.068,"text":"那如果對於主席的宣告有意義也是可以繼續表決啦我對您的宣告有詢問好嗎我對您的宣告先不用表決我有詢問先回答我的詢問主席我對您的宣告有詢問不要這樣上個會期國會擴權強行碾壓不給討論現在要再來一次嗎"},{"start":11065.016,"end":11084.811,"text":"請回答我的,那我有會議詢問,可以讓我詢問嗎?那請問一下你詢問之前你有沒有先看過議事規則三四條?我知道我的權利,是你要嚴格我的權利我們從早上到現在一開始的會議詢問跟程序問題一直在請教主席排審憲法訴訟法"},{"start":11086.192,"end":11088.754,"text":"我們看到民間有這麼多的民團、法律專業界要求開公聽會,要求...您先回答我,那您有沒有要開公聽會?您有沒有要開公聽會?您認為這麼重要的法案要開公聽會?"},{"start":11103.342,"end":11107.085,"text":"您沒有回答我的問題那一開始到現在大家討論了兩個半小時請您回答這個問題主席這個議案您有沒有要排公聽會就回答這個問題有沒有要回應社會要求這麼多民團司法改革界希望"},{"start":11122.475,"end":11129.861,"text":"先停審然後需要有公聽的程序主席我們講了兩個半小時如果你講一句話會你要排你連yes or no都沒有講你連yes or no都沒有回答那你可不可以回答這件事情不要揮議事規則說yes or no要不要開公聽會"},{"start":11144.512,"end":11150.096,"text":"任何的議案進入審查前,召開公聽會也是議事規則所授權所賦予的權利可是主席你不回答這個問題啊我非常禮貌的請教你有沒有要開公聽會呢有沒有要回答公聽會我現在回答你的問題請不要這樣子齁"},{"start":11163.679,"end":11181.958,"text":"現在我剛剛做出來的宣告是依據議事規則第32條第一項那當然各位可以對於我提出議事規則第32條第一項的停止會議的討論而會議的詢問你可以就這個部分去發表意見啊而不是又去扯回今天會議的事情嘛"},{"start":11182.739,"end":11187.881,"text":"所以主席如果您有回答簡單的ABC要不要開公聽會就清楚了就是一個回答要不要開公聽會您認為這個依然需不需要公聽會yes or no就這樣你為什麼拒絕回答為什麼害怕詢問你還沒有得到指示嗎你還沒有得到指示嗎這個問題為什麼不回答呢"},{"start":11207.109,"end":11218.239,"text":"要不要開公聽會這麼簡單?請問一下對於主席剛剛的宣誓有沒有意見?任何條文任何法案召開公聽會也是議事規則所賦予效權的。那我們現在就停止會議詢問。"},{"start":11236.057,"end":11241.38,"text":"主席引用錯誤條文喔 議事委員你給主席錯誤的資訊嗎請翻到我們立法委員手冊第137頁第32條 立法院的議事規則第32條"},{"start":11259.551,"end":11266.541,"text":"預備會議時出席委員提出權益問題、秩序問題、會議詢問或其他程序之動議時,主席應為決定之宣告。"},{"start":11267.98,"end":11270.982,"text":"愿會時．出席委員提出權宜問題．秩序問題．會議循環其他程序之動議時．應以書面提出．由主席竟為決定之宣告"},{"start":11298.201,"end":11308.963,"text":"立法委員各委員會組織法第21條其實是準用啦好那我們就先這樣因為條文的部分我現在都講了那也都有錄影那如果大家不懂的話回去再研究一下好嗎"},{"start":11311.236,"end":11313.599,"text":"是你講錯 說別人不懂 被糾正了被糾正了 不要這樣幹小東西去大家給你 要引用正確的條文你自己引用錯誤你引用錯誤沒問題 那沒關係"},{"start":11330.198,"end":11351.734,"text":"再重新講一次,您現在引用的是哪一條?沒關係齁,32條,32條第二項,我剛剛講錯了,跟各位更正所以你講錯了嘛,沒有錯嘛,我們公眾有理嘛我們的委員會是可以準用的,好,那就到此為止,大家不用再就這個部分去爭執結論就是我們剛剛做的"},{"start":11354.076,"end":11363.119,"text":"那有沒有要公聽會啊這問題?好,你可以停止討論,那可以回答這個問題嗎?有沒有要公聽會啊?有沒有公聽會這個問題不敢回答嗎?交開公聽會也是審查任何法案的一個應當進行有委員請求就要進行啊為什麼不回答呢?為什麼不回答呢?為什麼不回答要不要開公聽會?"},{"start":11381.069,"end":11398.804,"text":"這麼簡單yes or no主席沒有支持我主席如果支持我那主席請回答我請主席回答我要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢羅志強你反對公聽會嗎"},{"start":11403.737,"end":11405.677,"text":"請不要按麥克風,我們先讓翁委員做提案說明,謝謝各位。"},{"start":11432.18,"end":11456.9,"text":"我們現在先安靜我們先請翁曉玲委員做提案說明主席各位委員政府官員們還有在場和線上關心憲法訴訟法修正的先生女士還有媒體記者們大家好那接下來呢就由我來說明我與林思敏委員所共同提案的憲法訴訟法的修正內容和理由以供大家了解我們知道我們中華民國憲法徵修條文明定大法官15人"},{"start":11457.921,"end":11486.56,"text":"那目的就是為了要確保憲法法庭在審理重大的事件案件的時候能夠涵蓋多元意見充分考量各種不同的法律見解避免單一或少數觀點會主導裁判導致可能做成偏頗的裁判而影響到憲法裁判的公信力和公正性然而我國憲法訴訟法並沒有像其他外國的法律規定一樣有明定而最低的法定出席人數和做成同意"},{"start":11487.36,"end":11497.986,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":11508.872,"end":11515.256,"text":"司法委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人�"},{"start":11526.443,"end":11547.517,"text":"因此這一次的修法基本上是希望能夠健全我們憲法法庭的制度特別是我們接下來可能即將有出現有大法官有出缺的狀況只剩下8位大法官我們有15位大法官7位大法官卸任只剩下8位大法官在任"},{"start":11548.735,"end":11551.557,"text":"那麼如果這個中間又出現有提前辭任死亡或者是這個因為沒有辦法這個通過補足那個大法官的名額將出現可能會有極少數的兩三位或三四位大法官就可能會做成宣告法律違憲的憲法裁判"},{"start":11568.47,"end":11594.275,"text":"那麼在這樣的一個情況之下極有可能會由少數的大法官就會操控法律違憲宣告於會由極少數大法官就可以去操控法律違憲與否的情形這個是與我們憲法徵修條文明天要有15位大法官來參與審議的這個制度是相違背的那麼我在這裡我要再次強調"},{"start":11596.19,"end":11604.122,"text":"憲法法庭於審理和決議的過程當中必須要足夠多數大法官人數出席以及達到多數門檻的同意那麼才能夠實踐更高程度的憲法裁判的嚴謹性要求那麼這次的本條"},{"start":11611.693,"end":11635.332,"text":"這個條文的修正絕對不會像司法院報告中所說的會癱瘓釋憲制度會損害人民的救濟權利相反的這次的修正案的是在健全釋憲制度反對少數大法官專斷裁判維護憲政秩序捍衛人民的申請釋憲權利那麼同時我也認為司法院的擔心根本是多餘的話錯重點了超錯心了"},{"start":11635.692,"end":11657.205,"text":"你們應該煩惱的是賴總統坑狠地會濫用大法官的提名權而提出了一群不適格不適任的大法官候選人使得立法院難以接受並且同意這份名單這才是造成憲法法庭癱瘓的最主要的原因我想我一再重申寧缺勿濫是立法院審查重要人事案的基本原則"},{"start":11658.932,"end":11682.993,"text":"本期也相信只要是被庭人的資格是適任的是適合的而不是酬庸不是打手那立法院會有什麼理由不同意那麼最後呢我把期要再講我因為還有修正另外一條是95條本條本法修正條文施行日期是自公佈日期即刻實施那麼這條的立法目的無他其實就是防小人防無賴的條款"},{"start":11685.295,"end":11713.486,"text":"本席希望司法院不要有樣學樣學著模仿行政院不立即去施行立法院所通過的NCC組織法條文竟耍些玩弄法律的小人作風所以這個條文的制定基本上就是防小人條款最後我也懇請在座的各位委員能夠支持本席與林世民委員共同所提的憲法訴訟法第四條和第十五條修正案謝謝"},{"start":11715.43,"end":11727.978,"text":"我們現在進行機關代表的報告我們請司法院的黃副秘書長報告,發言的時間是3分鐘"},{"start":11743.082,"end":11765.913,"text":"主席各位委員好那今天司法院奉邀列席各位委員會就翁曉玲委員等人提出的憲法訴訟法第四條修正草案還有第九十五條這個修正草案我們列席報告那詳細如書面剛才經過程序的詢問之後很多的委員大概都對了解我們的書面報告那司法院就"},{"start":11767.21,"end":11768.211,"text":"司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":11790.171,"end":11815.225,"text":"大法官如果說萬一像大家所擔心的沒有辦法順利產生的時候那麼這一次的這個修法這一次的修法那個草案要把那個所謂的現有總額定定成是憲法訴訟法第五條的這個法定總額的話那麼將來運作上面就會產生自愛難行的地方所以才請委員要多加斟酌因為"},{"start":11817.546,"end":11836.039,"text":"目前的法制成為剛才很多委員講到包含我們憲法訴訟法的其他這個條文甚至立法院職員刑事法的相關的條文在開會所謂的現有總額所指的都不會是指法定組織上面的這個法定原額這個不是只有憲法訴訟法是這樣其他的這個法制也相同更何況"},{"start":11840.862,"end":11848.628,"text":"大法官的解釋現有總和的含義不是憲法訴訟法訂定以後才這樣早在大法官會議解釋的時候就是這樣歷來的解釋都是如此所以這個時候去變動現有總和的含義跟相關的法制的一致性我們是認為說有斟酌的餘地另外剛才委員有提到說那麼這個"},{"start":11870.325,"end":11879.647,"text":"這一個目前申請事項98%以上都是人民申請的這個事項只有極少數是機關的這個衝突如果說因此導致憲法法庭沒有辦法運作的時候那麼會對人民的這個權利有相當的這個影響剛才已經有跟各位委員報告那委員有垂詢說那現在的憲法法庭包括以前的大法官解釋駁回的比例高達相當的高可是我要跟各位委員補充"},{"start":11902.234,"end":11912.038,"text":"這個駁回率不管多高都是經過大法官審查之後的跟說沒有辦法運作連審查機會都沒有這恐怕是不太一樣的而且現在跟各位報告目前雖然說有很大部分是審查沒有過但是目前依照我們憲法法庭的公告已經有138件是審查通過而且是受理的審查通過受理的"},{"start":11930.224,"end":11930.925,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":11946.727,"end":11973.118,"text":"憲法法庭是人民權利的這個最後的基本權的最後保障維護它能夠順利去行使我相信不只是司法院也是國人大家共同這個期待所以這一次的這些修法我們還是請各位委員能夠三思當然附帶了這個九十五條的這些修正我們司法院也是認為說跟第四條一樣我們也是請各位委員在家斟酌以上報告"},{"start":11978.874,"end":11993.664,"text":"提案說明跟機關報告都已經進行完畢我們現在開始詢答,詢答時間本會委員是8分鐘非本會委員4分鐘都不再延長上午的"},{"start":11999.683,"end":12024.112,"text":"先8分鐘我們試情況因為今天的人非常的多不然這樣啦齁我們這樣各退一步8加1好不好8加1就好我跟你講不然就是8分鐘因為今天人比較多齁那我想我這邊退一步啦8加1啦齁那就改為8加1齁那個"},{"start":12031.476,"end":12051.613,"text":"上午的會議我們進行到12點半那下午我們提前到1點半開始開會因為下午還有一個協商在那我們現在先請登記第一位的中嘉賓委員發言要讓你好好的講"},{"start":12058.124,"end":12064.21,"text":"那我們現在就是截止發言登記那個主席想請教黃副秘書長麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":12081.202,"end":12103.602,"text":"委員好黃沐敏您好我的標題是攤販憲法法庭人民救濟無門那麼總而認定雙標40日不顧名大概前面這一段你剛剛也講了請問一下申請四限案以機關立法委員法院跟人民這四者都可以提出目前為止你所知道誰的比例最高跟委員報告目前申請這些四限"},{"start":12104.909,"end":12110.593,"text":"百分之九十八以上都是人身申請絕大部分涉及到人民的這個基本權利其實呢外界可能有個誤解啊以為這次呢藍白合作要來針對司法院針對憲法訴訟法來下手是因為對大法官不滿對憲法法庭去凍結他們上個會期的國會擴散有所不滿以為說憲法法庭好像專門在跟立法院的國會的多數作對其實不然我們看到這個統計"},{"start":12133.05,"end":12161.243,"text":"憲法法庭受理的案者,絕大部分是人民。不管是舊制時期還是新制時期,94到98都是以人民申請最高。所以我看到昨天的報紙就說目前藍委提高釋憲判決的門檻,遇到大法官的提名任命懸而未決,至人數不足而那這時候呢,低於10人的時候就無法評議無法裁判。不能執行釋憲的職責的嚴重走過,就是讓人民尋求救救全球上道了,是不是這樣?"},{"start":12161.983,"end":12188.275,"text":"好 那我請教一下那如果憲法法庭竟然要保障人民的權利那有沒有保障我們基層公務員你認為有沒有當然也包含基層公務員包含基層公務員好 我們看一下113年憲判第6號保障人民應考警消的權利去年憲判第15號保障公務員勤領慰問金所以如果台灣憲法法庭不只會阻礙人民救濟也侵害了公務員的權益你是不是認同"},{"start":12189.707,"end":12197.009,"text":"大法官解釋憲法程序的嚴格,民國三十七年是司法院大法官會議規則,四十七年開始有了大法官會議法。"},{"start":12211.755,"end":12237.87,"text":"到了82年大法官審理案件法這當中到82年之前這些法律都是由國民黨擔任總統國民黨或有國會絕對都是有通過的所以你認為這樣的一個程序有變成是一黨一派之私嗎還是那時候的國會所通過的這些法案能夠兼顧或尊重到司法院大法官釋憲的精神跟他的權責"},{"start":12239.091,"end":12267.832,"text":"你覺得他是一黨一派決定的還是有體現了大法官視線的尊重他的獨立視線的權責是前者還後者跟委員報告我想擔任大法官的他不應該我是說這些法條都是國民黨的總統國民黨控制的國會通過的你覺得他是一黨一派嗎還是他覺得至少尊重了司法院獨立做憲法解釋的精神我想大法官擔任以後不會去考慮黨派啦應該是你還是誤會我的意思這些法條"},{"start":12269.354,"end":12285.476,"text":"難道是有一黨一派的決定讓大法官要聽國民黨的嗎?不會吧?不會,很好。我們來看一下馬英九時期呢,到了他的104年之後,全部的大法官都是他任命的。到了107年蔡英文前總統的時候才有憲法訴訟的制定,我們來看一下。"},{"start":12286.977,"end":12304.589,"text":"這個問題到底是現有總和法定總和由來已久在我們當初從大法官會議法要過渡到大法官審理案件法的時候第13條那時候寫大法官總和過半數民國八十一年審查的時候請問一下那時候秘書長是不是叫王嘉穎那時候的王新邦立法委員是不是國民黨籍的不知道那時候都是國民黨的啦"},{"start":12310.131,"end":12329.331,"text":"好這裡呢從總額過半變成現有總額過半我們看下一頁怎麼來的當時的討論呢是國民黨的委員王新邦問王嘉儀秘書長他說欸你們這個總額怎麼算的他說是以現有人數計算和以前的立法院一樣那時候總額是17位假如總統通過13名17位就會發生問題"},{"start":12332.774,"end":12347.535,"text":"所以王新邦就說那會不會因為總額兩個字有歧義到底是什麼總額產生困難王秘書長說現在的解釋就是現有的意思啊所以國民黨委員說那邊修改明確一下比較好他說那如果你修改成現有人數我也不反對啦"},{"start":12348.496,"end":12372.246,"text":"所以最後結果是什麼?最後結果從大法官會議法變成大法官審理案件法的時候呢那時候的國民黨是這幾位委員民進黨只有一位陳委員主席經過協商之後把大法官總額加上現有兩個字沒有意義沒有哪黨哪派去打他去影響他所以82年通過的大審法就是把總額改成現有總額你老姊同意嗎?"},{"start":12375.327,"end":12394.876,"text":"所以我們來看一下當我們憲法有沒有除了大法官之外對於總和的討論有的就是對於立法委員我修過憲憲法本文當中有講到立法委員的額數的只有三個條文57條-1的時候要出席委員三分之以上提議"},{"start":12396.092,"end":12414.001,"text":"立法委員在臨時會的69條跟修憲的時候174條都是寫立法委員前條寫初期立法委員的幾分之幾後條寫立法委員的幾分之幾你覺得那時候的立法委員是以多少額數來算初期立法委員很清楚立法委員是以多少額數來算"},{"start":12417.525,"end":12434.222,"text":"時間到後來憲法徵修條文的時候為了避免這個歧義就寫全體立法委員那時候全體立法委員在徵修條文裡面有幾個權力罷免總統對行政院的法律案復議對行政院提出不信任案變更領土彈劾都是要全體立法委員"},{"start":12434.923,"end":12438.345,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":12455.814,"end":12481.988,"text":"但是呢我們立法委員執行司法為了定義什麼要全體立法委員在88年的時候國民黨全面執政的時候通過了第四條總額三分之一以上指的開會而總額是什麼規定呢以每會期的實際報導人數扣掉辭職去職跟頑固很清楚立法院自己在對自己的全體立法院的解釋總額怎麼定他自己的執行司法寫得清清楚明明白白你也認同嗎"},{"start":12483.686,"end":12510.186,"text":"不只認同你們的後來的規則呢都放進去了我們看下一頁你們現在呢這個國民黨立法委員呢現在修什麼修立法委員總額就不修你們第四條是修什麼修司法院大法官是現有總額你們的現有總額是指大法官的人數那請問一下請問一下目前憲法訴訟法當中有沒有提到立法委員的條文"},{"start":12520.374,"end":12539.018,"text":"立法委員可以提出釋憲對不對但是呢有額數的限制所以我們看一下齁當時你們的法庭審理規則第56條全盤照抄就是把立法院的職員刑事法裡面的規定是以立法院限額總額扣掉辭職去職員死亡而且以每會期的實際暴露人數"},{"start":12540.742,"end":12563.485,"text":"憲法訴訟條文現在立法院的總額是多少?是不是113人?結果立法委員自己要在憲法訴訟法行使職權的時候沒有用113人的算喔?是用現有的來算喔?但是大法官要事先要決定人民的權益的時候呢卻要用憲法的規定來算雙標啦我們來看一下下一頁給大家看一下齁"},{"start":12565.089,"end":12578.456,"text":"司法院大法官會議審議法第五條過去是怎樣?立法委員縣有總額三分之一就可以提出申請是不是這樣?這是過去的規定嘛是不是?而且你們的私信記者還寫什麼?每會期實際報導人數為準"},{"start":12582.315,"end":12602.337,"text":"在第九屆立法院的時候國民黨的人數未達三分之一啊所以當時國民黨提出釋憲還要找五黨籍的高精素美委員才能提出釋憲申請你有印象嗎有沒有受理過國民黨的委員加上高精委員湊足的三分之一請求釋憲有沒有"},{"start":12605.003,"end":12619.642,"text":"所以為了考慮到少數黨的立法委員也能夠提出四憲案那時候本席就提出了什麼提出了說把憲法總和從三分之一降到了四分之一"},{"start":12620.751,"end":12642.191,"text":"其實我們說一個法條是不是反映一黨一派之私就要看不應當時他是多數黨還是少數黨來決定要依著我們怎麼樣的法條制定能夠彰顯出主權在民民主政治的精神而定所以我們看一下當時本席要提出上一章"},{"start":12643.332,"end":12646.873,"text":"司法院自己的規則完全follow 立法院自己職權心事的規定,他就跟著規定,你認為這樣有沒有尊重立法院?"},{"start":12665.837,"end":12680.956,"text":"司法院有沒有尊重立法院應該是有因為憲法總委的解釋一向如此一向如此所以司法院也是尊重立法院自己的決定你們的規則就照抄這就是憲法機關相互尊重尊重各自獨立的權限的一個精神的體現下一頁"},{"start":12682.079,"end":12697.325,"text":"所以我們來看一下我們看到了施行日期為什麼要緩衝在107年大法官案件審理法的時候第九十五條說明因為攸關各機關人民的申請所以必須要公佈三年後施行是不是這樣的意思"},{"start":12698.77,"end":12715.899,"text":"實行這期是影響了人民所以當時當年呢就是三年後後來116年修改修改之後呢是怎樣司法院以命令定之為什麼那時候後來修改後不是三年再次修改把門檻從三分之一降成四分之一後要司法院來命令定之請說明"},{"start":12717.298,"end":12737.208,"text":"因為憲法訴訟法通過之後因為還有相關的這些審理細則這些執法規定要去定那些的時程可能是要司法院掌握的所以才這個實施的日期由司法院定之好所以我們看看翁委員的提案要求公佈後就實施法律的事情點向一頁法律的事情點往上"},{"start":12738.547,"end":12758.498,"text":"有哪些道交條例怎麼樣因為執行複雜由行政機關指定各部位組織法要配合主改的時程人民團體法配合民法大修施行日期貼合民法所有法律的施行日期都有各別不同的考量沒有全部都是公告之律實施的我們再下來再一點點就好了我們快加速所以"},{"start":12759.278,"end":12774.998,"text":"本席要在這裡主席也站起來了吼目前來為所提的憲法訴訟第九十五條的修正草案至公佈入實施啊這個其實呢會造成很多對人民的衝擊不顧及民眾準備充足的時間來申請的權益你覺得有沒有這個顧慮"},{"start":12776.837,"end":12796.104,"text":"委員報告因為現在已經公告受理的我們也擔心說立刻實施的時候那麼這已經公告受理的案件也沒有辦法進入最後對不起主席最後就是關於迴避的問題雖然這個迴避剛剛我們羅志祥委員提到了他說如果迴避的話你舉那個例子我仔細去講15個人6個人因為成台大任教只剩9個人參與懲判"},{"start":12797.384,"end":12826.346,"text":"所以國民黨的修法意旨說不可以出現少數來決定所以呢你們提出了第30條跟43條目前這兩條是近乎二讀嘛主席是不是這樣子是近乎二讀嘛好那如果你把總額改成法定總額就不會發生因迴避人數過多而有少數到法院決定嗎我們來看一下最後一頁了最後一頁了法定總額你把憲法總額改成法定總額不只雙標你沒有看看自己的我們的憲法訴訟法裡面的49條立法委員提出事先申請"},{"start":12826.926,"end":12845.083,"text":"不要四分之一四分之一是什麼現有人數欸你大法官就要有法定總額遇到自己的立法委員要提出事先申請四分之一自己現有人數來算而且呢憲法訴訟第十一條要申請迴避怎樣要其他大法官過半數啊"},{"start":12847.652,"end":12868.908,"text":"其他大法官是多少?請問你知道這個額數嗎?如果修法之後其他大法官是多少額數?因為知道其他大法官多少人我才能確定過半數嗎?如果要用法定額數的話第12條依本碼迴避這大法官不記錄現有總額現有總額不記錄由其他大法官的現有大法官過半數來同意就可以了"},{"start":12869.668,"end":12894.178,"text":"但是如果改成法定總額呢?憲法訴訟法第12條也在翁委員第四條的修正範圍內。法定總額是沒有辦法用迴避的方式來扣除的啦!既然叫法定,什麼法?憲法!憲法訴訟條文幾席?15席!15席的法定總額能夠扣掉迴避的大法官嗎?不行!所以我這裡做個結論齁!"},{"start":12896.305,"end":12896.365,"text":"議員翁曉玲"},{"start":12916.385,"end":12917.106,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":12946.242,"end":12947.191,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請秘書長"},{"start":12952.629,"end":12961.192,"text":"法定修憲門檻立法院全體立法委員四分之一提案、四分之三出席及出席委員四分之三決議。同樣道理,大法官現有總額,定義為憲法徵修條文第五條所規定的15位。"},{"start":12980.6,"end":13005.02,"text":"所以我們為了避免削弱裁判的多元性、公正性、專業性和公信力所以我們對現在的現有的憲法訴訟法他漏未規定說大法官現有總額的定義所以僅規定剛剛鍾嘉斌委員講的憲法訴訟法第十二條所謂的迴避的大法官他有規定"},{"start":13005.998,"end":13016.682,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬"},{"start":13026.906,"end":13056.076,"text":"所以這種情況之下我們就是現在要預作法律的修補把這個漏洞補起來啊如果萬一真的發生這種狀況我們是不是要讓我們的憲法法庭的組成必須達到一定多元的一個人數讓這個裁判做出來的裁判才更具多元性才更能夠實踐我們的這個實質的一個爭議才不會由三四個人的幾個狹隘的觀點來對我們的憲法做出裁判"},{"start":13057.749,"end":13070.219,"text":"民主黨你贊同嗎?就是說我們為了避免少數的不具多元的狹隘的觀點做出我們的憲法的裁判來做這種修法您贊成嗎?"},{"start":13071.681,"end":13096.366,"text":"跟委員報告我先大方想問你你不用跟我講說什麼因為什麼政治計算怎麼樣以往其實也並沒有這種情形說少數的這個大法官就可以去決定一個重要的這個國家價值大概目前以前沒有今天假設說委員們認為說應該要達到一定的這種這種大法官的人數才能夠那其實討論的過程是不是要去變動變動說"},{"start":13098.786,"end":13103.167,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":13123.342,"end":13150.983,"text":"但是就是沒有或者沒有啦沒有也可以但是我們就擔心會有這種情況發生我剛才一直講有這種情況發生的疑慮啊所以我們把這個洞漏洞把他立法漏洞把他修補起來讓他很明確的法制化就未來憲法法庭的組成一定要有15位法定15位的三分之二來出席才能夠做成他的憲法裁判這個方向您贊成嗎"},{"start":13152.384,"end":13179.876,"text":"用多數的意見來做成憲法的裁判您贊成嗎?跟委員報告多數意見的做成裁判本身跟說要定法定總現有總和變成這個法定總和我們司法院是認為這中間沒有當然的這個必然關係而且定成這個現有總和是法定總和的話有剛才跟各位委員報告會產生一些自然難行的情形而且現在吸取的案件受理的案件怎麼會沒有必然的關係呢?"},{"start":13181.477,"end":13196.207,"text":"就我剛已經跟你提到萬一如果有這種情況發生就極有可能發生就是總統提名的大法官因為他不具他的專業性然後他不夠中立然後他這個代乎這個民意完全輕忽民意"},{"start":13197.168,"end":13224.499,"text":"有這種情況會發生所以他的被提名人沒有經過立法院來審查通過會有這種情況發生嗎?怎麼會沒有必然關聯性呢?所以我們要把這種萬一的情況要把他設想進去今天趕快來這個立法來補這個漏洞讓他符合您剛才講的過去我們所有的憲法裁判都是必須要達到大概10位左右的大法官來做成他的一個裁判或者解釋"},{"start":13225.72,"end":13236.583,"text":"所以怎麼會沒有必然性呢?我聽不懂您講的。委員報告就是說不見得要用修法定總額的現有總額這種定義的方式。那好,那我問你這種漏洞萬一這個出現這種情況,怎麼樣補這個漏洞?"},{"start":13243.53,"end":13269.993,"text":"外遇出現的話跟委員報告那當然很多的國家很多的國家會有現任的大法官假設後任的續任的大法官沒有順利產生或者有缺位的情形的話現任的大法官可以繼續到到那個新任的大法官任期就任為止那這個這種這種制度但是依照我們現行的我們的法律就沒有這樣的一個規定嗎所以我才會講說如果我們用這種方式來修法的話實際上"},{"start":13271.494,"end":13282.38,"text":"就能夠達到我們符合我們真的實踐我們大法官憲法法庭的組成他一定要有多數的一個多元的一個觀點我們才能夠達到這個立法的目的啊"},{"start":13283.818,"end":13306.401,"text":"當然你可以用其他方式,你剛才講的也是一種方式啦,我贊成啦。但是以目前這種情況的話,我們還是必須修法及時來補這個漏洞。我們不要有政治的算計,你剛才一直講會有自愛難行,我實在聽不懂。我請問一下,我們這個總統為什麼我們憲法要設計我們的大法官被提名的人要經過立法院的同意?"},{"start":13308.915,"end":13335.712,"text":"當然大法官一定是所有的立法委員代表民意的這些大家可以認同的人,然後他才適合當然...所以我剛一直講大法官一定要學術專精嘛一定要超然獨立嘛一定要重視民意嘛一定要操守非常的好嘛如果總統提名的被提名人我們審視的結果、審查的結果他完全不符合這些要件我們還要讓他通過嗎?"},{"start":13337.372,"end":13351.562,"text":"在我們愧對民意欸所以我在講嘛既然會有這種情況可能發生嘛所以我們要及時補這個漏洞啊所以司法院你一直認為我們其實審查同意的時候因為現在"},{"start":13356.605,"end":13383.95,"text":"就是因為我們執政黨跟在野對於這個現在被提名的我們有我們的初步的一個看法跟意見但未來審查會不會通過當然還不一定但是至少我們現在看起來我們有很多在這個之前就發表一些看法所以這時候是不是總統如果假設出現這種情況我最後問你那總統要怎麼做假設被提名人被那個立法院否決之後"},{"start":13385.57,"end":13405.291,"text":"總統要怎麼做?所以總統是不是要盡速再把這個提名一批新的大法官進到我們立法院來審查嗎?這就是這樣運作嘛跟我們現在這個修憲法訴訟法把我們的立法漏洞補起來這完全沒有漢格啊"},{"start":13406.69,"end":13432.248,"text":"所以我不曉得這個司法委員你為什麼一直強調說會自愛難行呢?那就儘速請總統提名一批新的大法官,適才適任的大法官進來嘛我想這才是我們立法委員應該做到立法院監督制衡的一個責任所有的這些沒有這個學術專才的也可以當大法官"},{"start":13434.284,"end":13456.417,"text":"我想秘書長、副秘書長你一定也反對大多數我們學法律的人我們所有的法律學者也好法律專家也好或者法律人一定反對這種沒有學術專精的人也可以當大法官那對基層的這些法官或者檢察官是多麼的諷刺啊大家這麼認真這麼努力"},{"start":13458.568,"end":13466.961,"text":"對我們的法律做出貢獻但是一個完全對法律可以說非常外行的人他可以當大法官我們可以讓他通過"},{"start":13468.612,"end":13496.915,"text":"我想絕對不行,你一定贊成這個觀點所以我們還是希望說如果假設萬一這些被提名的人沒有被通過的話請總統他應該儘速提名新的人進來讓我們的憲政運作就不會有所謂自愛難行之處有什麼這個會影響我們司法院大法官的憲法訴訟他對案件進行審理的這樣的一個情形存在這才是正軌啦"},{"start":13498.427,"end":13500.236,"text":"以上,謝謝我們下一位請審法會委員發言"},{"start":13518.206,"end":13542.594,"text":"欸林委員李世民委員我一句話啦齁在你走之前啦齁你剛剛講的很有道理啦齁但是你就說如果總統你說現在最重要的是什麼請總統提名一批新的大法官嘛假設沒有過嘛對啊所以要趕快審查啊所以要趕快人事同意權審查你現在人事同意權不審查然後說總統要提名一批新的"},{"start":13544.066,"end":13566.963,"text":"對,要審。趕快審查。審查完之後,好,你忙。好,你去忙,你去忙。我跟你講這句話而已。我跟你講這句話而已。就是,所有剛講的這些前提,就是趕快審查這個大法官的人事同意權,才知道他們在這邊含血所噴的這些說這些都不適任,到底是真的不適任還假的不適任,讓立法院來審查嘛。"},{"start":13567.663,"end":13594.582,"text":"不是你在這裡含著血噴他的臉就說人家不適任嘛對不對這個一定是法律一定是要立法院審查的嘛所以請國民黨趕快安排人事同意權的審查然後人事同意權審查完畢之後如果七個人通通通過也許那可能就這個法一點一點急迫性都沒有啊所以我們說不要本末倒置先審查人事同意權再來審查"},{"start":13596.138,"end":13623.106,"text":"再來審查這個憲法訴訟法這是我個人那現在主席我們請這個副秘書長麻煩副秘書長我很好副秘書長這個剛剛我們還是要回歸就是看他們今天修這個法他們總是我很仔細的因為我本來搞不懂我想說到底他們賣這個狗肉到底是掛什麼樣的羊頭所以我就趕快仔細看他們的立法理由"},{"start":13624.346,"end":13641.982,"text":"那剛剛這個立法理由結果講半天跟這個立法理由都沒有關係他們講的都很簡單就是說如果人事同意權沒有通過我們不讓人事同意權通過之後我們的人數就不夠了就會變成三四個人來決定所以他們的這些修法的急迫性的前提就是說人事同意權不通過"},{"start":13644.113,"end":13670.702,"text":"所以他們本來掛著羊頭其實現在把狗頭就掛上去了直接說因為我們不會通過你們的同意權所以我們現在要賣這個狗肉就是要癱瘓你的憲法法庭的運作他們在立法裡面講說啊這個我們大法官設15人立法目的就是什麼什麼什麼我再請問副理事長我們大法官會議人數在我們憲法裡面一開始就是15人嗎?"},{"start":13672.69,"end":13674.471,"text":"中華民國憲法第七章司法第七十九條司法院設大法官若干人沒有規定多少人"},{"start":13701.536,"end":13729.731,"text":"我們的憲法本文這個國民黨每天抱著我們中華民國憲法本文才說我們的國土是秋海塘業的這個憲法本文並沒有規定大法官會議人數是15人阿他規定是若干人所以那時候設立這個憲法他就是要讓少數人來決定來做解釋嗎三四個就可以解釋嗎不是若干人但是後來我們修憲經過幾次修憲大法官會的這個制度一直改變所以那時候"},{"start":13731.089,"end":13742.905,"text":"我這邊我所整理的是一直到第四次修憲那時候有因為同意權原本是監察院同意後來修改成國民大會同意這些其他都沒有變還是若干人"},{"start":13743.823,"end":13760.673,"text":"一直到第四次修憲他才修憲說把若干人改成15人這個是在民國86年1997年的第四次修憲才確定了大法官會議15人這個所謂現在我們在講的法定總額對不對"},{"start":13762.842,"end":13791.232,"text":"那時候修正15人的目的是什麼其實是因為大法官的任期制同時建立因為以前大法官沒有任期的啊以前大法官提名以後他就一直做做做到死終生值啊那時候終生值還沒有改但是要改任期所以那時候改為了任期制所以他必須固定的名額那時候才有所謂法定總的15人對不對然後接下來到了第六次修憲也就是民國89年的第六次修憲才把終生值拿掉"},{"start":13792.403,"end":13819.928,"text":"所以這個大法官這個會議這個制度是有是有變化還有變動的並不是並不是國民黨所講說一開始啊就是我們法定總的15人他的目的就是什麼什麼什麼這跟當初的立法目的都不一樣今天我們如果修了這個憲法訴訟法的第四條齁其實我們還是在這裡好好的整理剛剛吵架歸吵架我們還是要好好的再整理現在目前如果第四條做了修改牽涉到整個憲法訴訟法裡面有多少條文裡面有現有總額"},{"start":13823.854,"end":13846.899,"text":"阿涵剛才有講到的這個26條、30條、32條、43條這些關於憑決受理啦然後暫時處分這些的規定我只能給這個本委員會聽今天如果第四條修改雖然只修改第四條一條但是他會牽涉到什麼憲法訴訟法裡面第12條有關迴避的規定"},{"start":13849.181,"end":13854.626,"text":"第26條有關顏值辯論應該出席的人的總額有關第30條對於判決參與評議的人數第32條案件受理的人數這個第43條暫時處分裁定的人數第48條雖然有現有總額但他是規定立法院的"},{"start":13868.072,"end":13878.403,"text":"第七十五條彈劾成立的人數．第八十條宣告政黨解散的人數．第八十七條統一解釋法律命令的參與評議的人數．"},{"start":13883.931,"end":13900.837,"text":"所以今天這條如果修改下去牽涉到這麼多法條的修訂了那這麼多法條修訂之後我個人認為說在我們堅持修第四條的最後造成的最大矛盾的結果就是第12條了"},{"start":13902.501,"end":13913.546,"text":"這是我們在憲法訴訟條裡面的第12條我們現在修把它修改說本法所稱之法定總額本法所稱之現有總額就是法定總額那第12條怎麼解釋來副院長解釋給他第12條怎麼解釋第12條的現有總額就是法定總額他為什麼又排除掉了呢那寫在第12條裡面他所說的現有總額就不是法定總額啦"},{"start":13929.226,"end":13949.091,"text":"那本身你這樣修改之後這跟第12條第4條跟第12條就彼此就矛盾了啊解釋啦如果因為現在的話就很所以所以這個就是倉促立法除草立法只為了只為了要他們所剛剛一再講的只為了要癱瘓憲法法庭"},{"start":13952.352,"end":13957.496,"text":"就做這樣子的修法他下去牽涉到我剛剛所講的這麼多的法條而我們剛剛一再講我們憲法法院的判決不是為了政治政治很少由機關所提出來的這個憲法判決佔多少"},{"start":13973.82,"end":13997.25,"text":"那不到2%不到2%大部分都是人民所提出來的所以我們憲法法院的判決跟過去的大法官會議解釋我一再強調他是是人民司法救濟的最後手段他是攸關人民權益的這個救濟的最後手段而這個人民權益救濟的最後手段我們因為一個案子兩個案子"},{"start":13998.291,"end":14005.481,"text":"的他所具有的政治性然後我們就說啊那我們不就把整個整個這個憲法法庭把它癱瘓掉大部分是人民的權益就是直接這樣子就剝奪了人民最終救濟的權益"},{"start":14014.122,"end":14034.859,"text":"這就好像你對一個判決你對一個個案的司法判決不滿你就把整個司法制度把法院判決把它凍結起來我們把中華民國三級法院我說因為你看你們法官做恐龍法官做這種判決所以我今天立法院我把你整個整個這個三級法院的權的職能整個把你攤換掉這樣做對嗎"},{"start":14037.93,"end":14062.506,"text":"我們今天因為他們今天一整個早上國民黨委員在這裡所講的這些這幾個解釋的個案然後就要癱瘓整個憲法法庭的運作這樣子對嗎所以我希望說今天但是我看國民黨今天擺出來的陣仗顯然等一下完了大概他們又要用表決又要用用用多數人數多數要停止討論直接表決"},{"start":14065.489,"end":14087.669,"text":"我個人認為是真的應該國民黨應該好好考慮選埃勒馬我們先審大法官會與人事同意權之後我們再來審審查憲法訴訟法以上謝謝委員謝謝那下一位我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答那在黃國昌委員執行後我們就休息"},{"start":14100.431,"end":14113.501,"text":"主席不好意思我先會議詢問一下我是真的會議詢問跟其他會議詢問要夾達實質內容性質的會議詢問完全不一樣我真的要問的事情是我們已經停止會議詢問了沒有關係來請副秘書長麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":14126.363,"end":14139.788,"text":"你好副秘書長我看你今天的頭銜是副秘書長上次來是代理秘書長啊怎麼上次來代理秘書長這次變副秘書長我們立法院是什麼你們司法院的職稱是換來換去喔"},{"start":14142.093,"end":14143.414,"text":"司法院出入規程有帶領秘書長的規定嗎?有還是沒有?"},{"start":14162.619,"end":14165.3,"text":"所以沒有嘛知錯能改司法院要守法這很重要明明就沒有代理制度司法院欸司法院自己都不守法"},{"start":14175.509,"end":14198.037,"text":"沒有法源基礎稿代理秘書長今天知道自己錯了趕回副秘書長喔沒有因為實際上面就是代理處理我們也沒有用司法院秘書長的職權也沒有也所以實際上就來你就看嘛你上次送來的阿不就是代理秘書長不要再強辯了嘛謝委員謝委員錯就錯了嘛錯了認錯就好了啦謝委員指教來我們問一下"},{"start":14200.359,"end":14216.696,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例54條很重要啊為什麼很重要我們要加強對被害人的保護啊所以提起民事訴訟的時候暫免繳納訴訟費用嘛這一個規定司法院有沒有通報各級地方法院所有民事法院注意"},{"start":14218.396,"end":14240.173,"text":"有通報還是沒通報?好 你會後查證給我我今天跟秘書長講我們上個會期三讀通過詐欺犯罪危害防治條例為了要強化對被害人的保護提起民事訴訟暫免繳納訴訟費用但我收到很多投訴"},{"start":14241.654,"end":14257.461,"text":"說地方法院的法官根本不管什麼叫地方法院的法官根本不管我用其中一個案子來當作例子起訴的時候詐欺犯罪的被害人結果收到法院什麼要他補繳裁判費來請教一下副秘書長命他補繳裁判費的裁定可不可以抗告先停一下不是啦"},{"start":14269.585,"end":14276.707,"text":"你講得太快了啦沒有繳裁判費叫你補繳又不能夠抗告接下來會發生什麼事就裁定駁回了嘛法院自行違法接下來的法律效果是把人民踢出法院之外對這個裁定駁回他可以抗告嘛"},{"start":14292.637,"end":14293.157,"text":"這不是開玩笑的事情喔"},{"start":14316.513,"end":14321.957,"text":"不要謝謝我啦這是你們該做的事情啦第一線有非常多的被害人欲哭無淚啊那奇怪了問我們立委說你們不是三讀通過了啊怎麼三讀通過了以後"},{"start":14333.535,"end":14352.7,"text":"還補繳裁判費裁定還不能抗告接下來馬上要面對什麼接下來馬上要面對訴不合法依照民事訴訟法249條第1項第6款的規定裁定駁回我還要自己跟公務員抗告有這麼離譜的事情喔把我們上個會議起立法院通過的法律當耳邊風啊這個才是真正在犧牲人民的訴訟權益啊"},{"start":14359.565,"end":14378.106,"text":"來我們沿著我們上次討論的話上次我請教你啊我們一一三年宪判制第八號出來了以後其實分兩段第一段殺人是屬於最嚴重的犯罪類型這是在回應什麼這是在回應ICCP第六條第二項的規定嘛"},{"start":14381.257,"end":14397.403,"text":"我們的憲法法庭的判決不是只有限於這裡喔不是只有最嚴重的犯罪類型喔殺人罪當然是最嚴重的犯罪類型就不用講嘛但他還進一步的限縮死刑要限於什麼個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重因為我上次質詢完了以後啊"},{"start":14401.314,"end":14428.708,"text":"有立委上來講說現在法庭只是反映ICCPR第六條第二項我聽完了以後我頓時非常的迷惘他到底有沒有去看那個憲判制的判決啊明明判決就寫兩段第一個殺人是最嚴重的犯罪類型符合ICCPR這沒有問題嘛第二個我上次請教你的是個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重我問你這件事情要怎麼解釋"},{"start":14429.983,"end":14441.985,"text":"因為憲法法庭的判決沒有跟大家講這件事情到底要怎麼解釋嘛然後他是用歷史的方式用歷史的方式我上次請教你的問題是說那犯罪動機跟目的"},{"start":14443.427,"end":14459.87,"text":"要預謀殺人 要置義無差別殺人犯罪手段要足以造成多人死亡或者是明顯不能到第三個犯罪的結果是不是要殺害多個人是不是殘害殺害自我保護能力明顯不足的人我上次請教"},{"start":14460.971,"end":14475.444,"text":"副秘書長的事這個到底是要折翼還是變存你上次給我一個非常模糊的答案三個東西全部綜合起來考慮我說你再回去看一下判決我下次會再問你你看完判決以後今天的答案是什麼"},{"start":14476.744,"end":14478.285,"text":"我拿刀我拿刀殺害兩個無辜的婦女"},{"start":14507.21,"end":14507.25,"text":"委員高見"},{"start":14531.768,"end":14556.406,"text":"是不是那個不是我高見啊我綜合你的講法就是有一定的抽象跟不確定性嘛從你的回答大家都聽得出來了嘛好來我們繼續啊再往下看上次為而請教你說各級法院都要一致決那如果接下來是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這件事情產生爭議了我還是可以尋求憲法法院的救濟嘛上次你回答答案是對嘛"},{"start":14558.533,"end":14583.351,"text":"像那個檢察總長去申請,檢察總長不一定接受,要看要檢察總長去...不是啦,這兩個部分檢察總長是非常上訴嘛,啊你怎麼會把非常上訴跟請求憲法法院就個案的司法裁判是不是有違憲混淆?現在我在講的是最高法院最高法院的法官,我們5票都同意,這個是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重。"},{"start":14584.765,"end":14597.433,"text":"但是被告認為說這不是個案犯罪情節最嚴重嗎?因為沒有符合上面你所講的那個標準啊他可不可以請求憲法訴訟的救濟?他請求個案裁判的憲法審查可是也要經得起檢驗嘛"},{"start":14608.812,"end":14627.758,"text":"當然啊!你到底在說什麼啊?我們大法官不是說生命很重要嗎?所以要個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊!要程序保障最嚴密啊!全部都是我們大法官講的啊!那進入了有關於憲法訴訟、個案的救濟的時候,憲法法庭要不要一致決?跟委員報告齁,如果他說維持這個將來還有解釋的空間,如果他要維持的話"},{"start":14638.274,"end":14643.475,"text":"所以這件事情是我們憲法訴訟憲法法庭的判決沒有講的嘛未來還是有充滿的一定的不確定性嘛"},{"start":14663.39,"end":14682.506,"text":"最高法院他發展那個不是最高法院的發展是憲法法庭的事情怎麼會看最高法院的發展抱歉是口誤抱歉好來來看一下齁如果接下來啊憲法法庭要求下級審死刑都要一致決最高法院的法官五個喔都認為"},{"start":14684.697,"end":14685.958,"text":"目前我沒有辦法去推斷將來的情形"},{"start":14704.997,"end":14722.486,"text":"你不用推斷現在的情形啊到11月1號以後只會剩下八名大法官啊希望能夠如期審查對啦但希望能夠如期審查你要趕快跟民進黨黨團講啊到目前為止啊沒有要求排入議審審查的就是我們的執政黨黨團啊"},{"start":14726.224,"end":14748.361,"text":"11月1號以後我跟你保證啊你以現在的時間上面來講我跟副秘書長交換一個心得啦我敬重你是一個有風骨的法律人所以我跟你講話也很客氣我在國會殿堂不跟你講政治的事情我只跟你講法律的事情所以我希望你回答的時候就像法律人一樣回答不要學"},{"start":14750.188,"end":14766.293,"text":"不要搞一些油槍滑掉的東西啦這樣子不好啦8月1號以後剩下存的八個大法官在憲法訴訟裡面有幾個在上一次的憲判制的判決當中申請自刑迴避"},{"start":14773.14,"end":14793.65,"text":"所以接下來我在憲法訴訟的時候申請個案要救濟的時候他們兩個迴避剩下幾個剩下六個嘛那如果按照現在的表決全數有四個大法官認為這不是最嚴重有兩個大法官認為這個是最嚴重"},{"start":14797.325,"end":14817.856,"text":"結果變成什麼結果變成的是那本來最高法院的五個大法官所做的死刑宣告維持的死刑宣告就違憲喔是吧不是啦就最高法院的五個法官所維持的死刑判決是不是就會被宣告違憲了好我為什麼要秀這個給你看六個大法官"},{"start":14827.099,"end":14853.801,"text":"做這麼重要的決定四比二的票數四比二的票數做這麼重要的決定直接推翻了所有下集審法院包括最高法院的一致決在制度上面是不是合一在制度上面是不是合一這個問題我不會逼你回答作為一個法律人我們大家共同思考在制度上面這個是不是合一"},{"start":14854.827,"end":14867.57,"text":"我接下來要請教你的是因為今天討論這麼嚴肅的問題我跟副秘書長報告我對於司法院所提出來的書面報告我看了覺得很難過因為太單薄了啦"},{"start":14868.516,"end":14893.428,"text":"因為太單薄了啦我為什麼說太單薄了這麼嚴肅的制度課題我很少看到司法院在討論這麼嚴肅的制度課題的時候完全沒有任何比較法的原因來我請教一下副秘書長美國聯邦最高法院有幾位大法官委員報告9位我們講9位大法官聯邦最高法院要做判決的時候有沒有最低法定人數的要求"},{"start":14895.68,"end":14910.517,"text":"他們是過半數決吧半數決不是啦我跟你講齁我們觀念要搞清楚我們現在在講的出席人數是第一個層次的quorum不是第二個層次的表決權數我們現在在講的是quorum"},{"start":14911.297,"end":14934.461,"text":"出席人數九位最高法院聯邦最高法院的大法官需要多少人出席才可以進行裁判跟委員報告我現在手上沒有明確資料來我秀給你看我我一定知道你沒有準備好明確資料所以我馬上秀給你看美國聯邦最高法院九位大法官最少要多少人他的科人是多少六個人"},{"start":14936.124,"end":14958.75,"text":"美國可能距離我們太遙遠了我問一點近的日本日本最高裁判所的幾位大法官15位15位嘛15位大法庭因為日本的最高裁判所的小法庭大法庭嘛是不是違憲要大法庭來做決定嘛大法庭要做決定最少要有多少人出席要寫的是要9人是9個人嘛好來"},{"start":14965.368,"end":14993.286,"text":"聯邦最高法院跟最高裁判所他們基本上沒有獨立設憲法法院跟我們國家的制度不太一樣因為他們的最高法院本來就有釋憲的權利最高裁判所跟聯邦最高法院都一樣那我們來看一下在普通法院系統以外有另外在創設憲法法院系統的南非憲法法院南非憲法法院非常有名啊幾年前南非憲法法院的大法官我們司法院都有邀請他來嘛"},{"start":14993.846,"end":15017.125,"text":"解釋南非憲法法院實際上面的運作南非憲法法院有多少大法官11位我寫的你後面都可以去檢證如果我有寫錯再麻煩副秘書長給我指教11位憲法法院的大法官最少要有幾個人參與才可以做判決"},{"start":15018.49,"end":15019.01,"text":"最少要有幾個人出席?"},{"start":15032.556,"end":15053.929,"text":"審判部要7人以上要7人以上出席嘛現在我都還沒有在講喔出席以後到底要三分之二多數決還是要二分之一的簡單多數決我都還沒有講到這個層次喔這個只是quorum第一個層次第一個層次不管是美國還是日本"},{"start":15055.424,"end":15079.611,"text":"普通法院有事件權的或者是南非憲法法院或者是韓國憲法法院在普通法院以外另外設憲法法院的不管是哪一個體系的都有最低人數的要求我請教一下副秘書長這一些國家的立法者在立這些法律的時候竟然有最低人數的要求啊"},{"start":15081.121,"end":15102.307,"text":"他們是不是要毀憲亂政啊?是不是要癱壞憲法法院啊?他們的立法意旨會是這樣嗎?來請教副秘書長各位委員報告那當然各個國家有各個國家的這個背景應該不是這些國家應該不是有這種情形嘛這個國家不是這種情形嘛所以我們法律員回到理性來思考問題啊"},{"start":15103.649,"end":15131.164,"text":"一個執掌市縣最高法院的機關需不需要有最低人數的要求要不要有call人這是一個制度性的問題我再強調一次這是一個制度性的問題我們當初在處理憲法訴訟法的時候根本沒有處理這個問題嘛我為什麼知道沒有處理這個問題那個時候相關的文獻我全部看完了"},{"start":15131.909,"end":15154.508,"text":"沒有人在處理這個問題啊當初施改國事會議的時候啊寫的是全體大法官寫的是全體大法官那個時候為什麼會要求三分之二要參與討論大家腦袋裡面在想的是什麼是15個裡面的三分之二但是到現在的法條變成這個樣子的時候在實際運作上就會有問題但我們怎麼樣橫平"},{"start":15160.734,"end":15179.898,"text":"所謂橫評是說讓憲法訴訟的制度可以好好的運作第二個在制度上面在制度上面是不是需要有最低人數的要求這些國家的立法者我相信就像副秘書長剛剛所講的他絕對不是為了毀憲亂政他也絕對不是為了要癱瘓憲法訴訟他們才會去做這樣子的規定嘛"},{"start":15188.519,"end":15211.111,"text":"所以我建議副秘書長代表司法院到國會來備詢回答相關的問題的時候要有司法院的樣子要有司法院的高度不要隨著一些莫名其妙的發言在那邊隨之起舞這樣讓大家看了會很失望跟副秘書長共勉好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在休息小一點半開會"},{"start":15223.2,"end":15225.691,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18187.756,"end":18188.416,"text":"謝龍介委員翁曉玲委員"},{"start":18217.7,"end":18241.267,"text":"主席好,有請副秘書長。副秘書長您好,就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告。那裡面有一些問題呢,我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清。"},{"start":18244.668,"end":18264.978,"text":"首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的"},{"start":18267.179,"end":18277.747,"text":"有沒有這個缺位 缺額這麼多最多大概就是迴避六位的那一次吧那對 那個是迴避 但是我說如果是缺額的話最多的 目前我記到我們書記廳的統計 最多的缺額是五位曾經是有五位 那麼如果說以我們法定總額十五人來講的話 就算是缺額五位也還有十人嗎"},{"start":18293.567,"end":18301.034,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案 案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案 案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":18316.007,"end":18334.252,"text":"那麼來進行這個裁判審議那麼這個部分在其他的民主國家裡面蠻多國家其實他們都有明定在他們的憲法法院訴訟憲法法院法或是憲法訴訟法裡面都有明定最低的開會人數他是有道理在的"},{"start":18334.932,"end":18337.256,"text":"否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊"},{"start":18347.996,"end":18368.928,"text":"對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任"},{"start":18370.949,"end":18384.701,"text":"接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間"},{"start":18386.718,"end":18405.489,"text":"但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判"},{"start":18407.278,"end":18426.287,"text":"這是我們希望在憲法裁判的作成能夠更加的嚴謹這也符合這次大法官在死刑有條件和憲判決裡面的主要的意旨我們要在程序上面要採取最嚴格最嚴謹的方式去做"},{"start":18430.207,"end":18455.014,"text":"憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到"},{"start":18456.354,"end":18484.682,"text":"司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣"},{"start":18487.076,"end":18493.343,"text":"我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。"},{"start":18509.022,"end":18529.554,"text":"我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法"},{"start":18530.196,"end":18530.216,"text":"憲法訴訟"},{"start":18550.472,"end":18550.672,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":18570.168,"end":18573.332,"text":"雖然缺額有最低人數但是他們也有說那上一任的或者是上一任的任期屆滿沒有來得及改選的時候有延長任期的這些規定就延長任期或者是說暫時行使諮詢這些規定那我們這邊都沒有鳳斌市長的這個說明"},{"start":18591.332,"end":18608.537,"text":"那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的"},{"start":18620.72,"end":18643.248,"text":"大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的"},{"start":18646.529,"end":18655.771,"text":"條文會有相衝突憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定依本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊"},{"start":18676.8,"end":18680.907,"text":"我只修了憲法第四條的條文欸!憲法訴訟法第四條的條文!對不對?你們這樣的解釋是有問題的!是錯的!"},{"start":18691.784,"end":18714.059,"text":"這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法會需要解釋。這怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是"},{"start":18716.833,"end":18736.551,"text":"其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決"},{"start":18740.267,"end":18746.108,"text":"那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利"},{"start":18769.873,"end":18779.82,"text":"只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案"},{"start":18795.692,"end":18798.093,"text":"這是秘書處自己、憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?"},{"start":18809.261,"end":18826.571,"text":"委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這一這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的"},{"start":18828.372,"end":18845.917,"text":"所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要採高標準"},{"start":18849.419,"end":18855.083,"text":"來進行裁判來進行審理嗎對我認為說這個秘書長你應該回去反映給現在的這個院長他還剩下幾天就要卸任請他還是要去跟賴總統講啦那麼如果說是我們未來審查這個大法官人士同意權可能不見得完全通過有少部分通過的話他也要尊重民意能夠重新提出新的名單好不好好OK那就先這樣好謝謝"},{"start":18877.1,"end":18877.32,"text":"張瑞雄議員"},{"start":18894.818,"end":18896.259,"text":"國民黨的朋友一直認為你們沒有民意的基礎"},{"start":18922.287,"end":18941.906,"text":"很難去想像在我國的各級法院裡面任何的一個判決裡面會講到所謂的民意的一個基礎我反而認為大法官憲法法庭民意是很沸騰的大法官反而或各級法院的法官反而要保持非常的冷靜"},{"start":18944.968,"end":18970.678,"text":"我心如秤怎麼會是外界的民意多沸騰希望你怎麼樣那你就怎麼樣那如果是這樣子的話要法官所謂的獨立於黨派之外法官來做一個獨立的一個審判規定這樣的一個條文就可能就失去他的一個意義了歐委員其實他的立法我知道他的意思要幹什麼啦"},{"start":18971.658,"end":18999.84,"text":"他一直是希望說聽大法官憲法法庭裡面能夠涵蓋更多元的意見跟觀點但是我看了你最近的一個答詢其實我上一次我也跟你們講司法院是一個憲政的機關立法院跟你們其實是平起平坐你們到這個地方這一次從翁委員提出他的一個草案以後我發現你們的立場踩得不夠硬"},{"start":19001.221,"end":19027.216,"text":"為什麼說不夠硬你們不是為自己而硬而是為這個憲政機關這個憲政機關你們該有的態度你們要來讓民眾知道你像比如說從委員上的會期提到的憲法訴訟法那個修正條文裡面這個我相信很多人也會去高度質疑就是說會不會變相去卡關到憲法法庭的違憲審查跟其他重要的一個職能你說這個整個人數裡面你去來看"},{"start":19030.069,"end":19037.183,"text":"假設我們這個憲法法庭組成以後你案件要進來了第一個就是到底要不要受理"},{"start":19037.97,"end":19062.782,"text":"你這個會牽扯到你要不要受理的話你就本身你要去做評議啊然後你一個憲法的判決要做出來以後你們在評決裡面人到底還夠不夠啊那另外第三個就是你還是做一個暫時處分啊涉及到三個環節我一直認為啊我一直認為啊你像譬如說憲法法庭裡面啊反而要是把它降低的"},{"start":19064.263,"end":19085.339,"text":"這個我的看法就跟翁委員剛好相反那相反不是不能對話你像比如說大法官其實你說先牽扯到整個事件案件人民的訴訟案件跟行政部門各個機關所提的訴訟案件那是千差萬別啊也就是說憲法法庭大法官你的意義到底功能到底要幹什麼"},{"start":19086.738,"end":19096.052,"text":"你就是要提供給一個最後的限制政府機關的權利來讓老百姓得到更好的救濟不是如此嗎代理秘書長"},{"start":19098.424,"end":19121.241,"text":"你也認為是如此吧?如果是如此的話,那我倒會覺得啊,你也能建議啊,人民的,申請釋憲的,那個反而標準要更低,讓他更容易有機會進入到憲法法庭,除了他胡說八道嘛,他這個程序不完備,或者說不付任何理由的一看就知道,那不可能來受理的。那行政部門的釋憲的,"},{"start":19122.702,"end":19143.535,"text":"那也許他認為說你本身也是擁有公權力的一個機關那也許他的門檻稍微可以去做一個調高把他區分人民跟政府我不曉得通不通但是我直接的感受就是憲法法庭你本來就是要提供給民眾萬一他受委屈了怎麼辦"},{"start":19144.912,"end":19171.696,"text":"你像我們很多一審二審三審的案件一個終局判決做下來以後那你怎麼辦他要申請釋憲啊那理論上到三審定讞了以後這個案子已經結束了可是憲法法庭裡面他現在變成受到的民眾可以拿他憲法法庭的判決裡面來做申請再審這個就是提供人民的一個救濟的機會喔你來告訴我你都不好意思啦立法院水準真的我再講一次立法院水準真的沒有很高啦"},{"start":19174.566,"end":19183.911,"text":"你們要大聲跟社會講 你們要大聲跟社會講你說談法律見解 你說你司法院站出來還沒有辦法跟立法院對抗 你們就笑死人了不是嗎 那麼多的法律案會被憲法法庭來宣告違憲為什麼社會上會給你們拍手 有原因啦不是因為你們沒有 你們擁有民意基礎啦 不是"},{"start":19201.371,"end":19204.733,"text":"裡面還是沒有民意基礎．可是裡面做出來．我早上舉的例子啊．酒駕的你強制給人家抽血啊．大法官就跟你說你要限期修法．對不對立法院可能跟你講我理你捏我民選出來我就不理你捏不理你就宣告無效就這麼簡單徹底到人權的保障老百姓就會站在你這一邊"},{"start":19227.11,"end":19243.335,"text":"不是嗎?應該涉及到一國婚姻的一國子女的監護權的這大法官很有名的一個見解啊你說任何一照要把子女帶出去大法官就跟你講不行也要尊重這一個小朋友他主觀的一個意願裁定就把你給確定判決給廢棄掉啦不是這樣子嗎?所以這個時候大法官你們有沒有民意基礎?沒有啊民眾拍手說大家光老"},{"start":19259.727,"end":19270.975,"text":"什麼時候大法官憲法法庭的法官有過民意基礎沒有啊以前老國代也好老立委也好終生啊做一輩子啊大法官會議做出一個判決定期麻將就該選掉了不是嗎甚至於啊國民黨最怕的是什麼國民黨最怕的是說到底修憲的幅度到什麼地方"},{"start":19288.919,"end":19314.065,"text":"大法官也可以來有你自己的一個看法以現在台灣的政治環境來看的話看你敢不敢而已啊連制憲都可以啦但是如果站在大法官的立場大法官在我看來已經是極度保守了一個極度保守的一個組成的有一些進步的想法那第一反而期待說他一定要有一個民意的一個基礎笑死人了來 你的看法是怎麼樣大膽講出來"},{"start":19316.68,"end":19339.31,"text":"大法官在作成的時候當然不會是只以民意為考量啦他最終還是要忠於憲法憲法上面在保障人權的意志是怎麼樣大法官的責任是要正確的闡述這個憲法上面的意志那這個斟酌的情形不會只以民意去考量 是不是是 所以我的意思就是說像比如這件照好像大家一直在談說台大那個案子啊"},{"start":19340.427,"end":19352.846,"text":"那個才在法宣那個案子你說因為法官迴避大法官迴避以後那剩下九個人那當然要迴避啊迴避制度是在不管任何的一個訴訟案件裡面只要碰到都要迴避啊"},{"start":19354.244,"end":19378.363,"text":"你如果說代理秘書長假設假設你的案子一審碰到我我把你判下去了你輸了嘿你上書了到二審嘿你夠衰我升官了你二審又碰到我我當然要迴避阿如果說不用迴避嘿你又上書到三審剛好我升遷速度更快你三審全部都碰到我你衰你個衰死當然要迴避阿所以這個叫做法定事由全世界各國都一樣阿美國就好啦"},{"start":19382.076,"end":19400.435,"text":"美國沒有憲法法庭,他們叫最高法院,對不對?他們幾個法官?他們幾個大法官?九個啊,對不對?你去看帝國,十五個、十六個,但是他分庭嘛。他強調的也不是民意基礎啊。而且你注意看美國人數多少人?人口三億的。"},{"start":19405.651,"end":19429.666,"text":"所以我們在跟別人類比的時候啊我很擔心這個法案是造成產生的一個衝擊啊產生的衝擊啊啊不然你說尊重大法官有更多元的一個觀點這好事這是好事所以大移民主席這個案如果通過之後你可以揣測到你預期到我跟你講喔以前的人數會過喔"},{"start":19431.704,"end":19445.054,"text":"你不要開玩笑喔 真的會過喔所以你們司法院的態度要很硬啊要去告訴社會說這個會產生怎麼樣的一個結果啊我看你若無咧 我看你若無咧你看以前老國台你的計劃擴權自肥案導致整個修憲第五次那一次無效為什麼 為什麼修憲可以無效大法官就跟你說無效"},{"start":19460.031,"end":19481.56,"text":"你沒有人會跟你講說你沒有民意基礎啊這不是這樣講這才是在講什麼民意的一個基礎啊所以我倒會比較擔心一點啦比較擔心一點啦說我們今天這樣的一個大家這樣的一個法案在做討論的時候啊司法院本身的立場不夠明確"},{"start":19482.905,"end":19502.358,"text":"說完大法官 憲法法庭是維護自由民主憲政秩序跟保障人民基本權利的一個憲法的一個守護神這樣的一個職能你們不能把它給拋棄掉從過去的大法官會議跟現在的憲法法庭裡面那個正當性社會當然可以去挑戰"},{"start":19503.419,"end":19513.023,"text":"但是呢 這個是一個憲政的一個基礎 如果這一條憲 如果我們 你們自己本身吶 都覺得秤菜都沒關係 我覺得那是很嚴重的事情喔 我很喜歡吶"},{"start":19519.124,"end":19541.949,"text":"德國聯邦憲法法庭的法官克里爾佛他講過了一句話我來送給你立法者不只是由憲法所劃定界限的機關他也是憲法的共同形成者這個我覺得很重要變成說現代國家的一個憲法行授的一個保證司法院不是立法院的敵人不會是立法院也不會是你們的敵人但是我認為你們講得不夠清楚"},{"start":19549.241,"end":19556.687,"text":"這真的我是覺得期許啦,10萬人來到這裡,比較大聲的,你也不一定要跟人家說什麼啊,但你那個立場真的是要,你立場要很堅硬啊,因為畢竟,守護這一部憲法不是只有你司法院啦,是各個憲政機關裡面,連立法院啦,我們都是共同守護憲法的一個夥伴啦,這個,你們好不好,要自己要加油,要把社會真的是要去,立場要講得夠清楚,產生的衝擊會是怎麼樣,不然在開玩笑,如果要說逼人的,我告訴你,這一步你不用來。"},{"start":19579.125,"end":19579.625,"text":"我們下一位請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":19606.547,"end":19610.773,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請黃副秘書長好 麻煩副秘書長副秘書長吳安"},{"start":19617.425,"end":19642.662,"text":"從今天早上的會議開始我們各位委員所發言時就不斷地強調這個憲訴法的修法姿勢提大那審查的不只是第四條和第九十五條連動到目前已經禁覆二讀的另外兩條對於憲法法庭的制度以及人民向大法官尋求救濟的權利都有直接的影響"},{"start":19643.782,"end":19665.269,"text":"所以應該先召開公聽會來邀請憲法學者專家對修法內容廣納社會的建言同時也希望先進行大法官人事同意權的審查避免大法官及院長懸缺在對於憲法訴訟制度需要再精進或是檢討的部分"},{"start":19666.511,"end":19691.948,"text":"進行更細緻的討論想先藉今天的這個尋答機會就兩者對於司法機關運作的影響來就叫我們複密首先是在憲法訴訟法第四條要修正大法官現有的這個總額明定為這個法定的總額也就是這個憲法修訂條文第五條所定的這個法定人數為15位大法官"},{"start":19693.052,"end":19712.599,"text":"但若將五院當中以委員制運作的機關比較,有關人數總額的規定來看,包括在本院的職權行使法第四條第二項當中寫到有關立法委員的總額,是以每會期實際報到的人數為計算的標準。"},{"start":19714.96,"end":19735.413,"text":"並排除掉會期中這個辭職還有去職者人數會因為不同情況而流動現有的這個總額也應該以現行在職的這個人數為準那我想請教這個複密認為現有的這個總額和法定總額應該如何區分以避免這個混淆"},{"start":19736.778,"end":19761.337,"text":"我想我們相關法制除了憲法訴訟法以外憲有總額在很多會議制的都會存在所以基本上來講憲有跟法定既然這個用語不一樣真的不太能夠一般的理解不太能夠說這兩個是一樣的那憲有總額當然是指現在能夠行使職權通常理解是這樣所以缺額"},{"start":19762.598,"end":19763.78,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":19781.28,"end":19804.994,"text":"大法官會議的時代到現在幾十年來的理解都是一致的也不會因為憲法訴訟法制定以後有不同而且跟其他相關的制度跟包含剛才委員所垂詢的立法院職權刑事法這些相關的規定都是一樣的理解所以我們是認為說如果要就憲法訴訟法的這個憲法總和去比擬到法制統和我覺得真的是有斟酌的餘地"},{"start":19807.096,"end":19829.317,"text":"好那這個委員在這個提案的這個立法理由裡面有寫到是要避免單一或是少數這個觀點主導判決但修法版這個修法的這個版本將門檻提高卻可能讓在實務上產生自愛難行的情況可能包括這個憲法訴訟法第12條"},{"start":19831.119,"end":19856.514,"text":"大法官依法迴避或因其他事由缺席我想請教副秘書長在實際的舉例修法所造成實務上難以作成判決的原因以及在現行的制度下大法官對於各項會議的參與情形及投入的情況程度為何是否曾發生委員所擔心的由少數觀點主導判決的這種極端情形產生"},{"start":19860.472,"end":19882.024,"text":"跟委員報告那之前有跟各位委員報告過從以往到現在說因為只有少數兩三位大法官就決定一個重要的這種憲政議題憲法上面的議題目前是沒有沒有啦所以說所以說我們也是認為說今天"},{"start":19882.944,"end":19899.067,"text":"希望說大法官嚴謹做成裁判這個我相信是每個人意見都一樣但是修法如果像各位委員所執行的這個樣子那麼會導致可預見的這個未來極可能極可能讓這個憲法法庭沒有辦法運作"},{"start":19899.808,"end":19923.887,"text":"沒有辦法運作那導致非常多的人民申請這個憲法裁判因此懸在那邊人們得不到緊急救濟尤其像剛才我也有講到有一些人民申請就還蠻緊急的像之前的那個義大利富商的小孩要帶出去的家處分案件那個說實話大法官也要用最快的速度去做成因為那個拖個一個禮拜就不必再判了"},{"start":19924.127,"end":19925.809,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":19944.059,"end":19959.595,"text":"那即使職權到即在達完就業為止那也是可以去思考其實很多的國家像我們的公司法像很多的法會認為那是理所當然解釋不需要明定今天假設你新的董事沒有產生我們有很多的事務解釋認為說即使沒有明定"},{"start":19960.296,"end":19960.957,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":19976.539,"end":19992.447,"text":"再三拜託大院各位委員能夠三思的地方好那我們從這個圖表上圖表上這個歷年的這個大法官判決的門檻這個部分我們請那個副秘令看一下每年平均的這個判決數從"},{"start":19993.607,"end":20016.225,"text":"一九五八年的這個大法官會議法到一九九三年的大審法再到如今的這個限訴法隨著大法官出席和表決的門檻下修做成判決的案件數也隨之提升那符合當初下修門檻讓憲法法庭效能提升案件較容易審結的這個目標我想請教副秘書長若再設"},{"start":20017.827,"end":20029.525,"text":"設高這個大法官參與和表決的門檻提升判決的這個難度是否會將導致判決數可能再度的銳減那更會直接影響到人民權利的這個保障"},{"start":20030.316,"end":20058.895,"text":"委員報告那那個憲法訴訟法就是之前的2017年的司法改革國事會議要求說必須降為那個多數決那就是因為要解決以往因為門檻非常的高一些人民權益救濟的案件因為不管各方的見解都達不到達不到原來要求的這些這些門檻的時候導致沒有辦法一直長久沒有辦法解決這些人民權益的這些問題因此"},{"start":20060.496,"end":20076.281,"text":"因此那個司法國務司會要求降低到過半數那也參考其他國家的制度憲法訴訟法才會這樣定定如果現在又修回去即可能有一些的案件又會回到早些年沒有辦法解決的問題的情形"},{"start":20076.718,"end":20104.791,"text":"好那從目前的這個國會的僵局來看針對大法官的這個人事同意權的行使恐怕一再延宕那很有可能從下週五開始我們的司法院正副院長都將首次出現同時出缺那根據司法院組織法第七條第五項由總統就大法官中指定一位代理院長但不論是由哪位大法官來代理首長畢竟只能作為這個過渡期的職務代理"},{"start":20105.251,"end":20127.019,"text":"那不論是要進行任何的這個政務決策或是這個法規修正,正當性可能都會受到質疑。我想請教父民,針對接下來極有可能發生多名這個首長懸缺及代理的情形,對司法院及下轄的這個各級法院的政務推動,可能會產生多大的這種程度影響?"},{"start":20128.635,"end":20151.707,"text":"跟委員報告站在司法院的立場當然希望說我們新任的這個司法院長能夠順利的及時來產生因為我們司法院非常多的這些重要的這個司法的政策包含改革的方向包含說跟大院承諾或是我們認知各界的需要去改變的這些司法的這些作為都需要新的這個首長來去做這個決斷"},{"start":20155.089,"end":20155.549,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":20171.915,"end":20195.022,"text":"我想憲法法庭不只是負責審查立法院的職權或是死刑這類的重大議題更多的可能是針對人民基本權益的保障以及對行政權及立法權的制衡況且當下我們處於立法院職權憲判出爐的前夕"},{"start":20195.842,"end":20218.354,"text":"且大法官人事案還未獲得排審,對於憲法訴訟制度的檢討容易失焦,淪為侵犯司法權的政治攻防手段,因此我們的主張若不審查大法官的人事權,就不應該審查憲法訴訟法,避免司法院首長"},{"start":20218.874,"end":20219.655,"text":"謝謝陳委員 那我們待會請羅志強委員代理主席"},{"start":20263.286,"end":20264.747,"text":"請吳宗憲委員進行詢答請副秘書長"},{"start":20274.394,"end":20275.175,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20306.435,"end":20306.755,"text":"三位,是不是?"},{"start":20326.758,"end":20349.846,"text":"市長,我再講一次,我們舊法論法,我們現在不講,我不是問你歷史故事,如果今天回避的回避,請假的請假,那只有五個人能夠出庭,請問一下依照現行我國的憲法訴訟法的規定,幾位大法官以上同意的話可以做出這個判決?目前15位的話,13分鐘。"},{"start":20353.43,"end":20369.768,"text":"目前目前現在就是最少十月十位出席嗎對不對那除了如果說有迴避當然就扣除對你都沒有回答我的問題不是啊複密不用這樣嗎為什麼每次我我跟你講"},{"start":20370.709,"end":20394.958,"text":"我問的問題都是很直接簡單了當嘛那如果說我今天我跟你講如果我今天開庭這樣問問當事人問題的話或是我在那邊亂講搞不好法官也會制止我說你在那邊講什麼的所以好啦那沒關係複密不方便回答我就跟複密說如果依照現行我國的法律到最後只有五個人出庭的話那只要三個人同意他就可以做出判決"},{"start":20396.178,"end":20406.484,"text":"這我講的啦那你不方便講沒關係那我們回過頭來我們去思考一個問題這一次大法官他做出來的憲判八號他有一個問題就是說"},{"start":20408.888,"end":20431.111,"text":"我們發現當初我們為什麼認為說大法官呢他同一個專長的不要超過三分之一為什麼同一專單一專業不要超過三分之一就是希望能夠有多元的大法官嘛那才不會說有時候做出來的一些判決可能跟實務差太多那這一次的憲判"},{"start":20432.493,"end":20455.835,"text":"我們就發現一個非常明確的問題因為前幾次我在質詢法務部長的時候父命你都有在我們講一個最簡單的這一次做出來的憲判這些大法官他很多人搞不清楚羈押的要件是什麼所以他才會在憲判裏面要求說這些死刑犯這三七位死刑犯被告回歸到普通法案的時候法官應予羈押"},{"start":20456.696,"end":20472.47,"text":"那我也知道因為你羈押啊但是跟現行的羈押制度的法律規定都不一樣那我再回過頭去看了一下這15位大法官的背景我後來發現原來只有3位法官有15的審判經驗難怪今天會變成這樣"},{"start":20473.931,"end":20496.31,"text":"等於是有12位根本搞不清楚羈押的要件是什麼或是他們沒有想過或是不熟所以今天才會變成說大法官他在下憲判的時候他直接告訴你說這個人如果回歸到普通法案審理的時候你要羈押結果這個羈押跟刑訴用法的羈押要件根本不符也就是這37個死刑犯如果"},{"start":20497.211,"end":20516.025,"text":"檢察總長認為他非常上訴成功之後他們回歸普通法院很有可能馬上就被放掉回家了所以這個是我這一次發現說原來那個憲法訴訟法要求單一專業法官不能夠超過三分之一這是何等重要的一個規定"},{"start":20519.833,"end":20544.027,"text":"所以我在這邊跟你們說為什麼今天翁曉玲委員他會提出這樣的要求他其實也是要避免到萬一將來有一些狀況會導致能夠出庭的法官數大法官數非常少的時候可能會變成是三個四個人然後就決定一個是那個等於是憲法判決的案子今天其實翁曉玲委員他只是要這樣提出來"},{"start":20544.847,"end":20546.969,"text":"我這邊就跟各位報告這個然後剛剛吳孝文其實他也搞錯他拿德國來講他一開始講的沒錯啊德國是兩個庭沒錯啊每個庭八位啊要六位出席嘛他就說他剛剛講錯的是說德國八位我們這邊為什麼要十位"},{"start":20563.428,"end":20579.075,"text":"實際上德國是八位但是他要六位出席也就是說要超過他是超過四分之三欸他如果拿這個來引用到台灣來等於是我們還比德國更寬鬆即使一趟小林委員的法案也比德國更寬鬆啊那我不知道"},{"start":20579.815,"end":20596.703,"text":"那個吳孝文剛剛是不是要幫翁曉玲委員講話他才引德國的例子還是他根本就搞不清楚自己在講什麼那後者比較可能啦後者他可能根本搞不清楚他自己在講什麼德國他是一庭是八人嘛他有兩庭然後八人要有六人出庭嘛是這樣子嘛對不對所以"},{"start":20598.024,"end":20598.224,"text":"所以齁"},{"start":20624.031,"end":20650.731,"text":"回過頭來其實剛剛黃國昌委員他有提出很多不同國家的憲法法庭或者是最高法院的那個他們的那個大法官或法官人數的比例啦事實上台灣這次修法如果修到像翁委員的這個提出來的法案其實他也不是一個非常嚴格的要求甚至比我們鄰近的其他幾個國家比如說韓國美國德國其實我們也沒有"},{"start":20651.791,"end":20651.952,"text":"主席"},{"start":20671.308,"end":20690.966,"text":"回到我剛剛講的,其實有一些極端的狀況下,確實有可能只要三個大法官同意,他就會做出憲法的判決,依據憲刑制度是有可能。那法律的存在並不是說過去有例子我才怎麼樣立法,而是法律定立之後就是要盡量能夠應付將來每一種可能發生的案例。"},{"start":20692.327,"end":20719.101,"text":"為什麼我會提這個就是因為這一次的憲判制他等於是憲判八他等於是捅了一個大樓子給實務界就我剛說的第一個回歸普通法案以後根本就沒辦法羈押這些大法官不知道還說你那個普通法案的法官要記得押他這根本就搞錯了第二個假釋門檻的問題假釋門檻他是要以行為時所以有一些人是試用15年就可以假釋欸"},{"start":20720.382,"end":20746.964,"text":"他已經在裡面關很久了那是不是沒有幾年後就可以申請假釋第三個我們將來還會面對一個更嚴重的問題憲判八號完全忘記收容可不可以折抵刑期這個東西他完全忘記講了所以有一些人他已經收容了十幾年了那以後人權團體一定會出來替這些死刑犯說啊收容也要記錄刑期的折抵啊否則你憑什麼限制他的人身自由到最後變成他們可能只要"},{"start":20748.244,"end":20761.789,"text":"回歸普通法院判無期徒刑馬上就可以申請假釋立刻就可以申請無期徒刑的假釋所以這些東西都是實務面對的結果我們國家的大法官我覺得"},{"start":20763.12,"end":20782.782,"text":"我們這次的大法官只有一個單一的專業啦就是全部都跟執政黨走了這個單一專業其他我覺得單一專業都不足啦所以十五 這一次我剛剛說了只有三位有十五的審判經驗所以才會導致這一次羈押也沒有弄清楚假釋也沒有弄清楚"},{"start":20783.963,"end":20811.944,"text":"收容可不可以折抵刑期也沒有提到那這樣子的憲判出來一定是給法務部以及司法院造成很大的困擾那沒關係在座很多人不懂沒有實務審判經驗在那邊笑我覺得就算了我也不會去講不懂的人那你們一定懂得我在講什麼將來我們就看嘛101刑訴法101條101之1的積壓要件就那幾個而已你有沒有辦法符合那個積壓要件去壓了他們這就是一個實務第一線面對問題"},{"start":20814.096,"end":20837.904,"text":"上個禮拜你跟法務部長兩個都回答不了我這個問題其實到今天我問了非常多我實務界的同學也每個人也跟我說這會是馬上面臨的大問題但是到現在還是無解所以我還是認為大法官真的他的專業要能夠多元那這樣才不會像憲判制8號立出來這個完全實務上面以後捅的這個大樓子自己都還搞不清楚"},{"start":20839.184,"end":20866.116,"text":"我覺得掌握了所有宣傳媒體的人他就是不讓人民去知道捅了那麼大的婁子但是我現在講的每個東西各位都是司法官訓練所的學長我如果有講錯真的歡迎你們來說我講錯但是我很難過的是這些東西就是我現在目前看到將來馬上要面對司法上面實務上的最大問題很有可能有一天你坐電梯你家社區就住了這37個人的其中一個人"},{"start":20867.116,"end":20867.156,"text":"謝謝副委員"},{"start":20900.427,"end":20902.388,"text":"主席有請副秘書長"},{"start":20921.947,"end":20941.861,"text":"副秘書長,我聽了包括吳思瑤委員還有很多名將來立法院前面的論述,尤其吳思瑤委員,他特別強調他說按照這個我們如果不去修改今天的憲法訴訟法,絕對不會出現說有幾個大法官就能夠做出憲法判決的情形"},{"start":20942.962,"end":20965.098,"text":"到底會不會出現幾個大法官就決定憲法判決的情形我們的吳思瑤委員的數學是100分還是0分我就請我們專業的副秘書長來跟大家來數學來去檢驗一下我想請教一下副秘書長現任15位大法官有7位在10月31號認滿對不對那認滿之後才剩幾位"},{"start":20971.621,"end":20972.822,"text":"請問依照憲法訴訟法我們的總額是幾位?"},{"start":20988.2,"end":20988.44,"text":"三分之二"},{"start":21007.759,"end":21018.502,"text":"八人的三分之二是幾人?六個人那要幾個人同意才能夠做出憲法判決?現有總額過半嘛八人過半是多少?五位嘛,好來我們來看看圖表這是在所謂的沒有迴避的情況之下迴避零同意的人就是五位那如果有一位大法官迴避現有會變幾位?"},{"start":21035.367,"end":21037.689,"text":"那同意會變幾位?沒關係你告訴我四位對不對?那迴避二的話現有會剩幾位?然後同意會剩幾位?迴避三的話現有剩幾個?"},{"start":21054.777,"end":21055.537,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":21082.788,"end":21090.055,"text":"剩下四位那同意剩幾位剩下三位然後現有如果是迴避五位現有剩幾位三位同意剩幾位情形就非常非常的這個極端當然越底下越極端嘛我說過啦那迴避是六位呢六位發生過吧對不對那六位那現有會變幾位"},{"start":21108.086,"end":21131.181,"text":"你回答我 我只是跟你講邏輯問題嘛 現在有兩位啦 對不對 我知道我跟你講 法律你能夠不顧遇到所謂的最特殊狀況嗎 能不能 你還是要考慮啊我先跟你講嘛 現在規定是不是這樣 同意幾個就可以同意 如果迴避六個 幾個同意就可以了"},{"start":21132.554,"end":21136.737,"text":"你告訴我啊,過半是幾個?現在有兩個,過半是幾個?過半就是二嘛,不是嗎?那就兩個嘛,來,最極端的狀況,七個迴避,現在有剩幾個?"},{"start":21151.056,"end":21169.082,"text":"剩幾個啊?你不要跟我講不可能數學上不可能不等於法律上都不可能法律在設計上基本上就要考量各種狀況啊那最後是說同意剩幾人照現有法律喔你不要迴避我問題喔你不要跟我講前提可不可以我說如果照現有法律這情況發生7個迴避的時候剩幾個人"},{"start":21176.668,"end":21188.903,"text":"幾個人嗎?你不敢回答我直接告訴你,我不管你想像我就是跟你講發生了以後剩幾個人?法律規定,在法研法你是法律人在法研法啊幾個人?一個人啦!到現在不敢回答!"},{"start":21195.74,"end":21213.95,"text":"國小數學答不出來跟吳世堯一樣我跟你講我不跟你講極端值一個人那麼吳宗憲委員說可能只有三四個決定有錯嗎有沒有可能你跟我講一個不可能是因為不會迴避七個你說想像上不可能那想像上迴避一個總有可能吧有沒有可能那就是四個啊吳宗憲委員說的對不對"},{"start":21221.735,"end":21237.729,"text":"他說對不對所以我要告訴你阿今天司法院這個法律你們要謝謝翁曉玲委員阿他今天就是要把這個漏洞補起來嘛我今天說實在話我在想下一個問題我要跟你講來來沒關係我要跟你講"},{"start":21239.045,"end":21253.838,"text":"今天翁曉玲委員的主張就是希望大法官能夠堅記多元性跟嚴謹性嘛所以要回到憲法本文的所謂的15個元額來去定義現有嘛 對不對翁曉玲版本是不是你告訴我"},{"start":21255.394,"end":21261.615,"text":"為什麼要把你把這麼國小這麼無聊的國小問題去問堂堂的副秘書長不只是因為吳世耀的數學有問題而是我告訴你這個問題就產生下一個我要問的問題你知道為什麼今天非得補這個洞嗎"},{"start":21281.294,"end":21297.843,"text":"因為你不補這個洞因為有這現有迴避的規定的話就會產生一個叫做鼓勵總統亂提人的現象啊你知道為什麼嗎就像這一次你也知道齁台灣民眾八成反對廢除死刑嘛對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":21301.491,"end":21318.574,"text":"然後呢這次大法官就是搞出一個實質廢止判決為藉有很多的疑慮可是我們親愛的賴清德總統他就提七個大法官六個主張廢除死刑啊"},{"start":21320.041,"end":21344.089,"text":"六個主張廢除死刑那我要告訴你問題在哪裡他就算這七個都不過照你現在這種漏洞制度我只要剩下那八個人四個人就可以去通過我今天剛剛吳宗憶委員講的我們大法官目前擁有的第一專業叫做民進黨的神奇寶貝只要神奇寶貝打出來就可以幫民進黨洗地因為他只要現在的人就可以啦"},{"start":21345.645,"end":21358.911,"text":"這些都是環環相扣的那在下我再請教一下我聽不太懂吳思堯跟民進黨委員我講第二件事情一直強調大法官不需要民意大法官不需要我問一下我有沒有民意基礎我有沒有民意基礎那為什麼大法官要立法院同意"},{"start":21373.564,"end":21396.979,"text":"就是要有民意基礎的人同意結果你還附和這些民進黨的立委你剛剛講到大法官不用民意基礎大法官審判說不需要考慮民意憲法是人民決定的為什麼不用民意基礎這句話都講得出來我真的佩服你啊今天我要說一句實在話大法官如果不需要民意基礎我跟秘書長建議一件事很簡單"},{"start":21398.28,"end":21413.506,"text":"修憲嘛大法官不需要立法院同意啦大法官就說今天大法官乃民進黨之神奇寶貝由總統決定任命之結束啦不需要民意基礎就這麼幹就好啦幹嘛要民意基礎"},{"start":21415.014,"end":21430.606,"text":"我再想下一個問題我想請教一下我們副秘書長明顯來講大法官現在的狀況這個所謂的人民申請的釋憲案很多我想請問目前政府機關提出的釋憲案受理的比例是多少政府機關受理的政府機關受理多少"},{"start":21440.838,"end":21453.081,"text":"百分之百啦!你們只要民進黨敢送的你哪一個不敢不受理?最近僅是民進黨送的東西有沒有受理?只要是行政機關送的你受理沒?民進黨政府受理沒?好統計給我你不敢講沒關係人民的受理多少?人民不受理九成對不對?"},{"start":21464.377,"end":21466.898,"text":"所以我跟你講今天我們民進黨在這邊講的那個非常光免堂皇的三大論點第一個跟你保證"},{"start":21487.643,"end":21514.539,"text":"不會有幾個大法官就把這憲法判決做了我剛國小數學題告訴你就是會發生那第二跟你講大法官不需要民意基礎那我覺得你直接修憲你修憲不需要立法院同意直接讓大法官變成我們親愛的民進黨的神奇寶貝一丟一球出去就出來開始洗地第三個跟我講說人民的案件多你現在人民案件有九成你不受理民進黨送的馬上受理謝謝"},{"start":21516.428,"end":21517.169,"text":"林德福委員吳思瑤委員"},{"start":21537.636,"end":21566.636,"text":"謝謝主席 抱歉 樓下還在協商總預算那今天真的在立法院風火連天 有很多的戰場但我認為 重中之重當然就是 台灣是不是能夠捍衛我們的憲政法制憲法訴訟法 為修而修 為快而快讓立法權優於司法權這樣子的做法實在是要三思要三百思 要三萬思啊"},{"start":21567.916,"end":21590.824,"text":"立委沒有這麼大自己推一堆違憲的法案害怕釋憲然後呢就說大法官是你民進黨開的如果不違憲就不會怕釋憲更不會需要像今天在野黨啟動了毀憲的修法下一頁我們來說席次"},{"start":21592.039,"end":21597.183,"text":"違憲還是違憲維護憲法還是違反憲法應讀起來是一樣的違憲還是違憲但是結果大不同違憲還是違反憲法由我們司法法制委員會藍白6加1七位立委來決定合理嗎社會不需要對話嗎"},{"start":21620.717,"end":21635.391,"text":"不需要聽到這麼多法界專業界期期以為不可的討論嗎這就是我今天一直在跟吳宗憲召委請求的過去憲法訴訟法從立法到他第一次的修正都歷經了"},{"start":21636.972,"end":21641.673,"text":"公聽會的程序而現在聽到法界很多不同的聲音為什麼該開公聽會再來討論法案有這麼困難如果不管那多元的意見只有七位藍白立委在這裡right here right now在司法法制委員會就決定了憲法訴訟法用法定原額來取代現有原額他未來的評議的決定要三分之二"},{"start":21666.019,"end":21689.238,"text":"只有七位藍白立委來決定這樣合理嗎?下一頁我們來看看早上我們論述的美國最高法院大法官是八位加上一位首席大法官共九位他們的規定跟台灣一樣三分之二參與評議二分之一同意"},{"start":21690.578,"end":21694.221,"text":"美國是9位大法官,台灣有15位喔!同樣的門檻,三分之二參與評議,二分之一同意沒有危及憲政,在美國沒有像台灣的國民黨民眾黨在說的人數太少了,這是少數觀點!"},{"start":21707.634,"end":21718.628,"text":"美國沒有發生這樣的憲政爭議我以2015年美國的同婚法案為例最高法院大法官以5比4的投票結果就以那關鍵的一票認同美國同婚正是合法"},{"start":21724.246,"end":21738.08,"text":"美國的人口是台灣的14倍啊美國的大法官人數遠低於台灣憲法法庭的人數在美國沒有藍白立委這樣說少數觀點少數決定不合理所以要修要來癱瘓憲法法庭美國不會下一頁"},{"start":21743.854,"end":21769.209,"text":"德國大法官聯邦憲法德國的法院大法官有16名他還分兩個議院依據大法官的專業屬性他分為兩庭同樣兩庭16位除以二簡單的數學問題一庭是八個大法官八位大法官裡頭三分之二參與評議二分之一同意跟台灣的門檻都是一樣的"},{"start":21770.39,"end":21774.553,"text":"原比台灣人數低可是沒有人會去挑戰大法官的專業沒有人去挑戰他們是不是政黨的好朋友影響了他們的憲政判斷認知"},{"start":21789.165,"end":21801.413,"text":"德國的人口是臺灣的3.6倍他們的大法官人數一停只有8位就可以參與審理沒有人說德國的大法官會危及憲政"},{"start":21802.814,"end":21819.055,"text":"來回來我前頭所以民間已經在串聯了反對二修憲法訴訟法要求先進行大法官人事同意權再來討論憲法訴訟法為什麼民間的聲音藍白的委員不聽"},{"start":21820.697,"end":21836.472,"text":"把這些學者專家民團的主張帶到立法院司法法制委員會的公聽會一起來討論為什麼害怕。下一頁律師也發動了聯署先審人事案撤回限訴法"},{"start":21838.342,"end":21860.077,"text":"律師界法律專業界其實以為不可的為什麼藍白就是要為修而修為快而快連個公聽會都害怕都阻擋所以大家一直說翁曉玲羅志強都說大法官決定的人數數額太少了會有單一觀點會少數來主導"},{"start":21862.918,"end":21885.143,"text":"那麼就讓大法官人事同意權趕快行使補回15位如果不行使人事同意權只剩下8位當然人數就更可能是單一觀點更可能是少數主導所以更需要趕快補齊大法官15名的員額同樣的為了避免單一觀點為了避免少數主導為了避免藍白的這種"},{"start":21889.923,"end":21894.486,"text":"強悍的在這裡強行通過就讓多元的觀點進到法制委員會先召開公聽會再討論修法下一頁數字在這裡數字會說話憲法法庭新制之後到現在112年98%是人民的申請案救治的時候同樣110年同一年有95%都是人民的申請案如果"},{"start":21918.084,"end":21944.502,"text":"修法癱瘓了憲法法庭不合理的提高他的評議決定的門檻其實是人民的申請釋憲案被剝奪了政黨利益大於國家利益嗎藍白是這樣幹這樣搞的嗎在下一頁重中之重在這裡藍白所幻想的極端案例"},{"start":21946.259,"end":21963.011,"text":"並不存在過去不存在數十年來不存在我以憲法訴訟法2019完成新制所宣判48件大法官的裁定"},{"start":21964.19,"end":21985.453,"text":"四十八案裡頭有四十七案參與審議的大法官都高於十位十位的二分之一的議決是至少要六位所以沒有兩三位少數觀點就來解釋憲法的這種極端案例哪裡有存在過沒有任何一個案例為什麼"},{"start":21986.494,"end":22009.27,"text":"王曉玲羅志強一直在說兩三個大法官就可以來操憲法的生死案例在哪裡過去沒有發生過48個宣判的大法官的釋憲案裡頭37案都是15名大法官全員參與換言之全員參與15位他的二分之一要過關是8位沒有兩位三位這件事"},{"start":22014.164,"end":22032.689,"text":"另外因為有10個案子是大法官要迴避有11個案子迴避制度也是立委倡議的相關的案子就要迴避所以把事實說清楚講明白並沒有兩三個大法官就可以來左右憲法解釋的這種"},{"start":22034.629,"end":22054.821,"text":"極端的怪異的所謂少數觀點的並不存在從過去到現在都沒有但是唯一有可能的在哪裡下一頁就是現在如果在野黨不行使大法官的人事同意權放任這七個大法官的缺額在那裡前提是"},{"start":22058.025,"end":22079.265,"text":"藍白已經整個歸頭的想好好不行使同意權讓大法官只剩下八位八位如果要扣除部分案件需要迴避那確實有可能三分之二平易二分之一可能會有進入一種一個案子也許五位就會一決"},{"start":22080.686,"end":22097.387,"text":"但這個前提是藍白拒絕審查大法官同意權藍白拒絕補足七位大法官前提在這裡如果極端案例會存在就是藍白的政治的軌跡"},{"start":22099.56,"end":22109.629,"text":"極端案例會發生只有藍白這種包藏禍心拒絕行使人事同意權也強行來修過憲法訴訟法"},{"start":22111.328,"end":22133.764,"text":"所以我今天在這裡再一次的說我非常遺憾我們的主張就是先審同意權補足大法官的缺額如果您對於現在送上來的七位名單有不同意的沒有關係透過審查專業對話直求對決你可以投下你的反對票"},{"start":22135.202,"end":22152.403,"text":"可以再提名找出你們認為更優秀更適任的人都可以但前提是如果國會連進入大法官人事同意權都不行使然後該做的事不做現在是搶修急修憲法訴訟法"},{"start":22154.005,"end":22173.289,"text":"要閹割大法官架空大法官癱瘓憲法法庭這才是臺灣最大的憲政危機這是臺灣憲政法治國家最根本的一個超級核子炸彈翁曉玲委員你要按一下這個發射鍵嗎謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":22188.123,"end":22213.841,"text":"我以為今天是質詢怎麼變成國事論壇一個人講那麼久來我們請副秘書長麻煩副秘書長委員好副秘書長你好其實聽到現在我想對於在野黨委員提出來的一個訴求或者是我們執政黨這邊的一個護航大概重點在於是什麼就希望我們現行的制度能夠更加的完善或完整"},{"start":22215.062,"end":22241.622,"text":"尤其是這個我們在講不管是翁曉玲委員的這個版本三分之二或二分之一他其實也沒有變動那只是法定原額跟現有原額的一個狀況在把它做明定那我想請教一下在國際上今天很多的委員都有提到各國民主國家的一個案例美國法定人員他最少九位大法官但是要有六位大法官才能參加會議進行案件的審查是嗎是嗎"},{"start":22246.137,"end":22267.747,"text":"韓國法定原額韓國憲法法院九名大法官但至少要有七名大法官才能審查案件並且六名大法官同意才能作出判決是嗎?是嗎?可以回答大聲一點法國憲法委員會也有九名的成員但是至少要有七名的法定委員才能夠進行審查是嗎?"},{"start":22270.929,"end":22288.876,"text":"美國法國韓國甚至德國剛剛講說即便他的憲法法庭有分兩個庭每個庭各八名大法官但是至少要有六名大法官才能進行審查是嗎是所以世界民主國家裡面剛剛我提到的美國德國韓國法國"},{"start":22292.58,"end":22292.78,"text":"議員翁曉玲"},{"start":22309.065,"end":22322.897,"text":"無法充分考量各種專業角度跟見解而破壞司法公信力故非無見但是可能會有自愛難行現實上自愛難行之處那其中你就有提到了就說"},{"start":22324.369,"end":22348.885,"text":"如果大法官提名任命其成懸缺未提名足夠的人選或是立法院未行使同意權的話那可能導致大法官在任的人數低於十位就沒有辦法達到所謂法定原額三分之二也因此就沒辦法開會 對不對所以這就分兩個層面嘛第一大法官提名過來之後立法院要無條件接受嗎有沒有審查權"},{"start":22352.634,"end":22373.606,"text":"立法院有審查權嗎?畢竟我們有審查完之後我們還要有過半數的同意才能夠讓大法官來上任嘛所以不是說總統一提名完之後大法官就任命嘛那如果說是這樣的話要經過57位立法委員的投票通過這樣子難道沒有任何的民意基礎嗎?這難道沒有任何的一個民意審查嗎?"},{"start":22374.875,"end":22398.414,"text":"有民意審查只是說要讓那個大法官能夠順利的去執行但是我回到第一個命題啊大法官提名進來之後立法院要無條件接受嗎如果說今天提名的人選確實不符合民眾的期待確實不符合我們對於專業以及司法的考量確實認為說他不適任大法官的話那立法委員把他否決了"},{"start":22399.315,"end":22426.021,"text":"真的沒有辦法讓他我們寧缺誤爛沒有辦法讓我睜一隻眼閉一隻眼我就真的投不下去因為這個人選就不符合我們過去傳統認為大法官應該要有的地位那這樣的話我們剩下的大法官可以用現行原額三分之二、二分之一就可以去決定其他的一個釋憲案件那不就跟我們現在剛剛提到的國際社會上面的民主國家背道而馳嗎?副秘書長"},{"start":22428.143,"end":22432.945,"text":"這不是大是大非的問題嗎?哪一個國家?剛剛我提這幾個國家,哪一個國家是這樣子?來啦,副秘書長,看起來你講得很吱吱嗚嗚啊。說實在的話,本席賽上來之前都已經有做過功課跟資料。"},{"start":22454.634,"end":22481.585,"text":"如果說要在國會殿堂裡面為了是是而非的話來討論那我覺得這非常遺憾再來什麼時候我們這一屆大法官名單送進來立法院那個大法官名單送進來不是司法院的執掌所以不是司法是總統府抱歉抱歉好但是大法官送人事案到9月20號進入到立法院排入了全院委員會"},{"start":22482.762,"end":22509.882,"text":"那我想請教就您的理解跟瞭解跟認知目前有任何一個黨團提出說希望院長召集協商趕快來安排正式發函有嗎?目前是沒有看到啊院長這邊沒有接收到正式發函有任何一個黨團要求說我們大法官來做什麼時候來排委員會來做審查"},{"start":22511.756,"end":22531.551,"text":"這不是打假球嗎一方面講說拜託趕快審人事趕快審一方面就沒有黨團發函啊你沒有黨團發函我們要怎麼樣拜託院長趕快召集消息宣傳來決定時間考試委員有民眾黨團但其他的人事案並沒有啊再者什麼叫打假球你知道嗎副秘書長"},{"start":22532.659,"end":22560.791,"text":"我要跟你說明一下立法院在打假球稀奇古怪的事情非常多而且睜眼說瞎話不打草稿沒有關係啊NCC人事同意權你有沒有聽過在媒體上面聽過有聽過嘛那個時候也講啊說NCC人事同意權7月31號如果說沒有過的話可能導致iPhone買不到那現在iPhone已經順利上市了而到目前為止立法院已經開議我們第二個會期已經開議了三個多禮拜四個禮拜了"},{"start":22561.789,"end":22589.878,"text":"NCC人事同意權審查是排在交通委員會那到目前為止交通委員會在這個禮拜已經是第四個禮拜了民進黨的召委排了兩個禮拜國民黨的召委排了兩個禮拜到目前為止六次禮拜一禮拜三禮拜四的交通委員會你知道NCC人事的委員啊審查排在哪一天嗎不了解我跟你報告一下沒有"},{"start":22591.052,"end":22612.293,"text":"民進黨當召委六次交通委員會 一次都沒有牌啊那結果你告訴我們說NCC委員很重要我們也想審查啊 我們也想要直球對決啊 我們也想要把NCC委員來啊但重點是執政黨連牌都沒有牌 結果你跟我們講說人事很重要這種叫做打假球啊"},{"start":22612.913,"end":22632.613,"text":"所以副秘書長我這邊特別跟您說明一下也感謝你今天過來也出具司法院的報告但是能夠把法修得更完整我們一起努力讓未來憲政不至於有任何的這種憲政的一個危機好不好感謝謝謝宏委員謝謝委員現在我們請鄭正前委員"},{"start":22634.426,"end":22661.313,"text":"鄭正前委員鄭正前委員馬文君委員馬文君委員馬文君委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員沈伯陽委員好那"},{"start":22671.244,"end":22696.75,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請這個副秘書長麻煩副秘委員好副秘書長好 因為我不是本委 所以這只有四分鐘 所以我快速問一下就是說因為剛剛講了那麼久 那你剛剛有些地方可能沒有辦法回答到第一個就是民意基礎 那我想問一下就是說這個副秘書長我們的總統是不是民選的"},{"start":22698.413,"end":22699.718,"text":"總統如果是民選的,那總統有沒有民意基礎?"},{"start":22705.417,"end":22727.609,"text":"當然民選當然有民意基礎對所以呢我覺得這個今天在討論的事情有點奇怪就是說呢講到好像只有某一區譬如說是大安區的選民才有民意基礎羅志強才有民意基礎其他人都沒有民意基礎那如果是今天沒有投給他的人也不算民意基礎這個論理其實非常的奇怪但我這邊我還是要再提醒一下就是說如果我們按照剛剛他們這樣的一個說法"},{"start":22729.89,"end":22745.5,"text":"今天大法官今天被總統提名之後他有一定的這個民意基礎的人去提名他然後由立法院大家的投下的同意票也有一定的民意基礎變成了大法官那問題是大法官最後在做決定的時候是根據他的專業還是根據民意"},{"start":22748.248,"end":22764.833,"text":"當然我想大法官在做成決議的時候當然是以他對憲法以他的專業對憲法的本質的這個認知去那不會說全部說以那個因為民意的多數少數去做決議的不是這個樣子"},{"start":22765.713,"end":22782.946,"text":"我們今天其實不是只有大法官這樣我們法官在判案的時候也都是根據法律的原理原則在判案如果我們要講究這一些民意基礎的話是不是以後我們法官在宣判的時候都可以請羅志祥委員在旁邊審核一下太好了我肯定這一個判決然後再把判決判出去"},{"start":22784.666,"end":22810.014,"text":"而且我們在選立法委員的時候立法委員的確有民意基礎有一個選區多數的選民投給他但投給他也是因為他具備一定的專業所以他在用他的專業在國會殿堂上面去決定大法官的人是應該如何所以譬如說像今天吳宗憲委員在這個質詢的時候他至少他就是根據我認為憲判的哪一個字號我認為大法官這邊的決定我不太認同"},{"start":22810.814,"end":22837.044,"text":"但這個就是他用他的專業去看說那我認不認同這個大法官的人選或者說這個未來的方向我覺得這才是一個正常的討論所以因為剛剛可能都沒有什麼時間回答但我覺得要把它導回來一下那再來我想再問一下就是因為其實剛剛不同的委員都會提到各國的立法例那我早上在程序發言有很快的提過但是可能沒有太多的時間講細節就今天不管是美國、德國或者日本"},{"start":22838.405,"end":22857.465,"text":"請問他們大法官生成的方式跟我們台灣一樣嗎?這個大法官生成的方式可能每個國家不一樣像德國的話可能不太一樣吧但是我沒有做去這方面的調查像以美國來講美國他有一定的這個終身制"},{"start":22858.146,"end":22872.188,"text":"日本也很類似但日本有一個年齡的限制卡在那邊他有一個有點像我們罷免的一個制度但他其實沒有真正被使用過所以他們這種在我們今天假設剛剛我們人數如果今天不夠的狀況之下"},{"start":22873.49,"end":22900.346,"text":"然後呢到最後只因為這一次的修法都做只剩少數的大法官這件事情是台灣蠻特有的一個現象那剛剛卻把這個特有的現象當作是一個通例來討論剛剛有一個表格剛剛羅志強委員想給你回答但我看你剛剛沒什麼機會回答就是有多少人迴避迴避了之後有幾個人同意等等之類的這個表格先天性就有一個問題就是他已經預設了我們一開始就已經否決了接下來的大法官人士"},{"start":22901.306,"end":22918.838,"text":"所以如果說我們已經接受了這樣的一個事實前提,回不回避這件事情呢,它雖然是法定事由,但是在每一個個案是不同的,它是一個事實。而今天呢,我們原而照怎麼規定,這是一個法定。把事實跟法定混在一起,這其實不只是數學的問題,它其實是一個邏輯的問題。"},{"start":22920.399,"end":22920.579,"text":"謝謝委員 下一位我們請"},{"start":22949.068,"end":22970.241,"text":"鄭天才委員發言主席各位委員有請副秘書長副秘書長委員好"},{"start":22976.656,"end":22994.878,"text":"今天討論憲法訴訟法因為憲法職責是解釋憲法所以這個人數非常非常重要我們看人民要修憲"},{"start":22996.563,"end":23022.015,"text":"我們看中華民國憲法徵修條文第十二條憲法的修改西京立法院立法委員四分之一的提議四分之三的出席還要出席為四分之三的決議四分之三喔這比例很高而且還要經過人民的投票復檢對不對副部長對不對所以"},{"start":23026.906,"end":23049.807,"text":"一個憲法的制定修正都是經過人民而目前的一個現況是怎麼樣呢我們的大法官不尊重人民的決議不重視人民的決議為什麼這樣說呢我就舉這個111年憲判制第17號"},{"start":23054.621,"end":23081.637,"text":"這個憲法制第17號就是針對平埔族群的認定他認為是嚴族民族聯合國嚴族民族權利宣言第33條規定嚴族民族有權按照其習俗及傳統決定自己的身份或歸屬憲法徵修條文第10條第12項規定國家應依民族意願保障嚴族民族之地位"},{"start":23083.325,"end":23110.614,"text":"原住民族基本法也規定應尊重原住民族的在制定法律或實施司法程序的時候憲法判決也是實施憲法的訴訟也沒有去徵詢原住民族的意見我們看最重要的就是這個憲法憲法當初中華民國憲法在修憲的時候"},{"start":23111.65,"end":23134.857,"text":"民國八十一年國民大會第二次修憲憲法徵修條文第十八條第六項對於自由地區的三包的潛意的規範當時的國大代表吳清貴還有翁文德提出要把平埔族納入到三包裡面"},{"start":23138.274,"end":23163.554,"text":"經過國民大會四分之三的結議沒有納入啊!沒有納入啊!這是人民的意見啊!民意啊!民國83年第二次民國83年第三次修憲的時候將三包證明為原住民當時國大代表吳清貴等65人提案"},{"start":23164.707,"end":23191.009,"text":"要把平埔族納入到這個嚴肅民族經過立法國民大會四分之三的人民的結議四分之三的國大代表代表全國的人民排除沒有納入結果呢結果呢"},{"start":23195.084,"end":23217.16,"text":"幾位大法官就決定了就決定如果我們看這個歷史我們看這個歷史平埔族在清朝到日治時期"},{"start":23218.951,"end":23247.447,"text":"生番、熟番生番、熟番是不同的從清朝到日治時期到中華民國政府都是分開的現在我們有很多台灣的人閩南人他不承認他是閩南人他不承認他是漢族也不過是幾十年而已"},{"start":23248.851,"end":23276.329,"text":"我們是從清朝開始就分開的從法律來看清朝的法律大清立立民定民業介入深藩地次同出道入關塞從日本也是一樣所以這個部分我要的是說憲法訴訟法當然這個人數很重要"},{"start":23277.421,"end":23293.058,"text":"不然少數人去決定的就如同憲法明定的原住民主變成少數的大法官去做決定這個就是用這個例子來去告訴大家"},{"start":23294.462,"end":23318.439,"text":"這個是非常非常重要的一個條文以上謝謝好 謝謝謝謝委員好那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆請相關機關就儘速交給個別委員或本會"},{"start":23319.6,"end":23325.525,"text":"委員副坤祺所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報請相關機關以書面回覆"},{"start":24798.029,"end":24810.845,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":24819.76,"end":24829.759,"text":"為了有利於討論,待會審查法案的時候,就請列席機關代表移到主席台正前方首長席的位置就座。請宣讀條文。"},{"start":24832.723,"end":24855.671,"text":"憲法訴訟法委員翁曉玲等17人提案第四條第一項及第二項未修正徵定第三項本法所稱大法官現有總額細指憲法徵修條文第五條所定大法官人數委員翁曉玲等16人提案第九十五條本法修正條文施行日期自公佈日期施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":24859.94,"end":24887.186,"text":"條文已經宣讀完畢,現在進行討論,那請問一下要不要進行大體討論?當然要好,那我們現在就進行大體討論那是不是請大家來主席台做發言的登記那我們一樣跟早上一樣,我們就是第一輪登記請大家發言一次然後沒有人要發言或結束之後我們再做第二輪的登記我們接下來我們就這麼做,這樣比較不會過於混亂"},{"start":24889.827,"end":24897.375,"text":"因為有委員希望要就大體的部分,大體討論,發表意見,所以我們現在進行宣告。"},{"start":24913.99,"end":24922.176,"text":"每位委員大體討論的時間是3分鐘需要討論的委員麻煩到主題台前面登記在場的其他委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":24940.924,"end":24950.781,"text":"沒有的話我們就延長到五分鐘,就是中召會有提出來希望延長嘛,那大家如果沒有意見我們就延長到五分鐘,謝謝各位"},{"start":24964.13,"end":24990.361,"text":"總統,我跟您建議,事實上我們六個這樣討論,它沒意思啦。你們就要過,因為你們人傳得久了,這樣也有意思。不是,你這樣主持讓我感覺你很心虛啦,我跟你們很好的,我不跟你吐槽的。你就一直人照,你就要休息,這個意識運作我給你尊重。就是說我的意思是說,今天這個案子要慎重。"},{"start":24991.61,"end":24994.612,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":25021.92,"end":25022.4,"text":"那這樣我還沒有機會下週排公聽會"},{"start":25049.215,"end":25071.81,"text":"你這樣做我們真的不曉得下周排公聽會因為那個根據我的意思就是說你吳宗憲的個性吼你也算有法學素養的人吶這麼重大爭議的案件你不敢說開公聽會不好你不敢嘛對不對啊你只敢借錢給撒給宗家賓而已啊你要你自己去啊你發一個今天出來之後要去什麼公聽會"},{"start":25076.558,"end":25094.737,"text":"你再休息個半個小時好好考慮一下啦等到你們人來比較多了啊那個才叫暴力那看起來才會夠美啊才是美學啊對不對好不好我們一見啊看大家如果想繼續休息我們就在因為顯然的我還有機會"},{"start":25097.726,"end":25102.847,"text":"大體討論大體討論也不一定要登記啦舉手就可以啦好不好舉手啦然後在座位上講啦你坐下去你會很辛苦的啦心虛人就會很累你知道嗎"},{"start":25126.954,"end":25132.098,"text":"主席我是這樣建議就是說因為我們也這幾個人大家都很熟那因為我在其他委員會我們開會呢其實這個排色方法齁其實有時候我們在其他委員會討論什麼都是"},{"start":25160.959,"end":25178.444,"text":"我一個建議啦就不要折衝啦然後也不影響到大體討論的程序就是因為剛剛鍾少偉是希望說其實在座位上面舉手嘛那如果這樣的話就是不登記發言好不好我想說我們就到那個強哥這邊可以嗎"},{"start":25180.486,"end":25181.487,"text":"主席我是這樣請各位委員我們再來討論看看"},{"start":25199.696,"end":25212.631,"text":"其實整個提案裡面你說憲法訴訟法不管是第四條或者第九十五條我們今天早上大家都有看到你如果從歷史嚴格去看"},{"start":25214.105,"end":25233.573,"text":"這個在1948年以前叫大法官會議的時候大法官會議規則裡面當初12條是二分之一出席二分之一決議也就是說大法官會議的時候應該有大法官總額過半數的出席出席的大法官過半數的同意才可以去做決議這個是1948年那到了1952年"},{"start":25238.715,"end":25256.066,"text":"去修正了大法公會議的規則裡面他就改變了他就變成三分之二出席二分之一決議就本來是二分之一二分之一那就變成了三分之二出席二分之一決議可是到了1958年的時候那個好玩"},{"start":25257.206,"end":25268.897,"text":"大法官的眼睛長得不夠亮,他做出了四至第七十六號的解釋,他就去講說國大、監察院、民意機關,立法院就避免了。"},{"start":25278.029,"end":25278.289,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":25308.049,"end":25309.61,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十二條條文修正草案案"},{"start":25332.925,"end":25361.073,"text":"這個是浮動的所以廳長你也很清楚這過去的一路來都大法官大法官會議他的案件審理的一個規則裡面那到底是要多少出席多少人才可以做成一個決議這個本身它是一個浮動那以現在來看的話這個節骨眼我一直認為說期期以為不可啦期期以為不可啦就算你硬要的話硬要"},{"start":25363.915,"end":25366.016,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人發言委員翁曉玲等16人發言委員翁曉玲等16人發言"},{"start":25391.997,"end":25417.019,"text":"我怎麼不在插你什麼洞這個時候就是法律人你到底有沒有哪個堅持公聽難道不合理嗎我就不相信敢你吳宗憲敢從你的嘴巴裡面講出來說這種重大的一個修法裡面吳宗憲拒絕開公聽會你敢嗎你如果敢以為我都會笑你我就笑你是偽君子我聽你開公聽會我聽你"},{"start":25420.031,"end":25426.596,"text":"我一定報一百天理這個時候才是要顯現阿不然你跟其他人這沒什麼基準的會有什麼差別你常常要以說你是一個法律人你是一個檢察官自居那碰到這種重大案件的時候你龜縮了講的都不好聽啦我說實在話啦阿但是喔真的是不要忘記啦就是說"},{"start":25442.736,"end":25468.142,"text":"憲法法庭它本身它的功能是在幹什麼?憲法法庭真正能夠為政府機關去做出服務的那是少之又少又少又少又少啦真正憲法法庭的一個功能從過去國民黨威權統治到現在它做出來的判決也不會去對人民更加不利益 不是它是要另外提供一個人民的救濟的一個管道否則我就講過啦"},{"start":25470.563,"end":25491.36,"text":"大家都很清楚啦,三審定言以後本來就已經結束啦那為什麼人民覺得不服,法院判得不好,那個法律是違憲的我要來跟你大法官,跟你這些憲法法庭的大法官,我要跟你們告狀然後告到最後,當然有些不符合就已經排除掉啦可是呢,常常有一些會符合,否則的話"},{"start":25493.001,"end":25513.035,"text":"我們整個法律的設計三極三整就定院啊但是申請大法官會議解釋的時候有些有良知的法官認為說這個立法院喔沒水準喔這個立法院定出來的立法院只會選舉而已喔立法院定出來的人有些對法律的認知或者說立這個法太過於情緒"},{"start":25514.639,"end":25538.591,"text":"或者有黨派之爭所以這個法很有可能是違背憲法的我今天就舉了好幾個啊就是說你窮盡一切管道你都沒有辦法得到法律救濟的時候怎麼辦還好我來申請看看大法官不然你也救命一下不然請一個開除你之後這樣喝一點小酒之後警察看到你逼過來抽血強制驗血大法官後來說不行"},{"start":25542.814,"end":25563.181,"text":"這個不行 立法院定這個法律是不對的 限期修法我們遵照啦 我們遵照啦那我另外提的案子是跨國的婚姻的 如果異國之間的一個監護權的時候你怎麼辦法院判下來啦 欸 假設謝龍介是阿兜啊 他要帶回他阿兜那一國啊欸 小孩子嘩嘩叫啊 他不想跟謝龍介啊"},{"start":25569.306,"end":25571.508,"text":"這幾年來我們對憲法法庭會給他拍手的原因就是說"},{"start":25590.543,"end":25607.523,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬"},{"start":25609.107,"end":25625.279,"text":"你說再審要把一個訴訟三審定認程序再開多困難啊要形成一個再審的一個室友大法官跟你說我給你也不是大家都有的那你如果說你再把他限縮到三分之二的時候"},{"start":25626.38,"end":25653.245,"text":"我是覺得會衝擊到啦那我也不敢說我莊惠雄講的是對啊至少我天違啊天違啊曾經幹了滿場的一段律師的這樣的一個我自己的一個感觸碰到這樣專業的一個修法外界這樣就是說啊不然你也聽我們的意見看看他有涉及到整個制度這麼嚴重的一個變革就憑我們幾個人就是趕快給他過去我早上也講"},{"start":25654.517,"end":25662.963,"text":"我是說翁曉玲委員他講的讓更專業的更多元的我不能講他不對我是講說這個我產生的衝擊你怎麼辦不應該聽聽外界的意見嗎不應該嗎否則否則我剛就提過了這個整個大法官或者憲法法庭你本身整個議事議會規則裡面你如何你要幾趴的人去出席多少人才可以評決然後才可以做成決議"},{"start":25683.556,"end":25683.596,"text":"議員翁曉玲"},{"start":25714.778,"end":25729.177,"text":"我們的想法就是我管你那麼多,這樣好嗎?任何大法官會議或者憲法法庭所做出來的解釋,到現在我們看到的都不是在拘束人民,不是!"},{"start":25730.492,"end":25757.892,"text":"多數都是在拘束各個機關在限縮各個機關他本身的權力的一個運作那這是好事啊這代表我們社會在進步了我們社會在進步了那我們現在又要去走回頭路那要走回頭路可不可以可以啊路隨便人家走的啊你可以走忠孝東路你可以今天可以去走到那個青島東路愛走哪一條是可以哪一條可是我們是立法院我們路不能亂走欸"},{"start":25759.253,"end":25770.342,"text":"我們今天要走回頭路 說理 那我們幾個人只有我們幾個對話 因爲變爲野蛙啦 我變人也不會接受啦 搞不好就變標管啦 這樣通嗎 那讓外界 讓那些法學界的大佬 讓律師界 或者讓你司法界你的同事 或者讓我過去 你們再吵我們再爺"},{"start":25787.541,"end":25814.882,"text":"讓大家齊聚一堂讓他們有那個機會來對話說到底是要把它做提升上來還是要降低我不敢有定見但是我覺得今天這樣子的話可能會比較不好以上好不好等一下我再第二輪請問一下有早上他們有拿來然後你離開啦有哪一位有要發言嗎那個翁委員"},{"start":25817.162,"end":25822.959,"text":"翁委員要升委員還是中委員?升委員麻煩翁委員"},{"start":25829.249,"end":25829.289,"text":"首先,"},{"start":25857.916,"end":25873.399,"text":"這一次的大法官卸任七位可能在短短的一兩個月或兩三個月之間不知道有沒有可能順利的完成大法官同意權的行使但是很明顯的確實我們就會有缺位的情況那麼這個大法官的出缺"},{"start":25881.801,"end":25899.93,"text":"並不是少數一兩位或兩三位而是一下子出缺了七位那麼也就是剩下了八位的大法官而在我們現在的制度裡面是三分之二的出席就可以開會但是如果說是從我們整個憲法法庭制度設計來講"},{"start":25903.351,"end":25910.295,"text":"他基本上是要求最好就是大家全員到一起15人一起開會那麼如果說不得已有些人請假或是出國等等的話那至少也要三分之二的出席也就是15人當中有10個人出席開會可是在我們現在即將要面臨到可能有只剩下8位的大法官那這明顯就已經違反了現在這個大法官裡面至少做出席做決議至少要過半數嘛"},{"start":25932.749,"end":25935.831,"text":"那你沒有過半數的情況之下做成的憲法法院的裁判人民會信服嗎?會有公信力嗎?我們一再強調大法官基本上也要求各級法院的法官在審理重要像死刑的這樣的一個案件的時候都要採取最嚴格最嚴謹的方式去審議"},{"start":25956.26,"end":25983.818,"text":"但為什麼大法官自己在做憲法裁判的時候那麼卻不重視程序正義這就是程序正義你要有多數的大法官能夠出席開會他才能夠真的反映多元的民意的觀點那麼做出來的這個裁判那經過彼此互相充分的討論之後那才不會有這個太多的一些問題那更何況"},{"start":25986.359,"end":25992.901,"text":"我們也看到這一批的大法官就是現在的大法官他們過去做了一些判決其實也引起社會嘩然還不只是最近看到的死刑有條件核憲設了很多重重的門檻的判決"},{"start":26006.125,"end":26025,"text":"所以當大家已經對於現在的大法官失去信心也不認為他們會公正的裁判的時候這時候再讓他們正下這幾位大法官那麼去做裁判其實對他們來講也不公平更何況我們知道其實在其他國家不管像是韓國法國"},{"start":26028.568,"end":26038.301,"text":"還有哥斯達黎加、捷克等這些國家日本他們對於這個最高的憲法裁判機構就是我們這邊講的憲法法院或是法國的憲法委員會都有明定最少的開會人數"},{"start":26046.331,"end":26067.223,"text":"韓國人口數應該比我們多他們大概只有九位大法官那明文規定要有六位的大法官才可以開會那麼對於宣告重要的如果說對於像是宣告法律違憲的重要的憲法判決也都要有六位以上的同意在這樣子的高門檻更嚴謹的"},{"start":26072.367,"end":26076.134,"text":"這樣的一個裁判的制度我覺得當然是值得我們台灣學習啊"},{"start":26077.999,"end":26102.786,"text":"更何況我們從法制史的角度來看過去是要求四分之三的大法官出席然後三分之二的大法官這個決議那麼後來雖然說降低了但是呢從大法官審理案件法一直到現在的憲法訴訟法把同一門檻降的只有剩下這個現有總額的二分之一通過其實在很多的法學在不同的論文裡面其實都有討論認為這樣的一個制度是不對的"},{"start":26106.24,"end":26125.095,"text":"我們基本上是給大法官過大的權限來對抗來反對否決國會的多數民意所通過的法律這樣子一個制度其實在其他國家不見得認為這是一個好的制度所以我們今天"},{"start":26126.116,"end":26136.3,"text":"之所以要提出這樣的修法案無疑是希望能夠撥亂反正我們希望我們整個的憲法的訴訟制度能夠更加健全在整個憲法法庭從它的組成、開會、出席到審議、評判等等的它都能夠更加的嚴謹經過更多元大家的不同的討論"},{"start":26155.137,"end":26172.862,"text":"那麼做出的憲法判決才具有公信力才能夠說服一般的老百姓才能夠令人信服那我覺得這是一個很基本的一個觀念所以呢我今天我提這個法案坦白說真的我沒有想到大家會認為說我是在對付大法官其實並不是而是我們從這一次的提名的這個情況還有看到大法官有一半"},{"start":26182.604,"end":26190.37,"text":"幾乎一半的這個出缺發現了這法律漏洞發現這法律漏洞當然我們就必須要提法提修法來填補這樣子的法律漏洞所以並不是說是我們要什麼癱瘓憲法法庭我們讓整個憲法的釋憲權更加健全不是更好嗎對人民來講他如果說未來他的案子不受理"},{"start":26207.421,"end":26224.353,"text":"或是他申請事先案即便受理了審查了但是呢也被大法官認為說是無理由不回那麼至少還是在一個多元法官參與討論的這個基礎上所做的憲法的裁判大家比較不會有意見"},{"start":26226.024,"end":26253.171,"text":"那我想這個部分我們基本上是在防衛杜建就是看到這個問題我們提出修法我們當然不希望這極端的例子發生但是今天這個早上中午的時候我們羅委員其實也講了嘛這個法律的規定在那裡就不能夠不去思考萬一有極端的情形發生剩下的八位大法官如果說有五位或六位迴避"},{"start":26254.511,"end":26259.417,"text":"的情況之下怎麼辦那真的是只有一個人他可能就做成決定了那你能夠說他違法嗎"},{"start":26261.295,"end":26285.503,"text":"當然不可能說它違法,因為我們法律的規定就在這邊啊對,那這是大家所願意看到的嗎對,法律的規定當然就是目的就是要防弊那去防止萬一有極端情形發生的時候那我們要怎麼去解決所以我覺得這是一個重要的議題那麼我們大家應該要正視今天完全不是跟這個什麼政治的這個"},{"start":26287.003,"end":26294.57,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":26314.386,"end":26333.117,"text":"我不會有人會這麼期待的啦所以回到我這次提這個修法案的初衷我真的是認為我們要健全我們的憲法法庭制度讓整個釋憲權更加的完善而不會落人口石以上謝謝好謝謝那我們請省委員發言剛剛不是省委對省委員"},{"start":26344.535,"end":26367.638,"text":"主席、各位同仁我們現在開始進入這個法案的大體討論那我還是要說今天如果這個法案按照我們提案的草案通過的話它就是實質上癱瘓憲法法庭這不是我說的這不是我審法會說的"},{"start":26369.356,"end":26396.346,"text":"這個是這個法案提出來之後說許多的法律界就提出這樣的質疑這個你現在google就知道了大家很多人就認為這個就是實質上要癱瘓憲法法庭的運作那我覺得這樣子的從這段時間以來我一直覺得說個案就是個案不要針對個案來惡搞我們政府的制度"},{"start":26397.288,"end":26418.907,"text":"這個一直都我看到這一段時間以來國民黨提了很多案子都針對制度來做修改但是一問理由都說各案今天一整天國民黨的委員上來不管是誰在台上就說就談的就是你看這個對於實行的大法官會議解釋你看這個對於這個國會擴權案的這個暫時處分"},{"start":26426.666,"end":26449.322,"text":"這個我們在早上都一再論述就憲法訴訟的判決來講憲法訴訟就這些政府機關所提出的比例是憲法訴訟裡面比例非常低的更何況在這麼低的比例裡面你們又限縮在這幾個對這幾個個案的不滿那用各對各案的不滿來惡搞這個政府的制度我認為這個就是今天最大的問題"},{"start":26450.811,"end":26479.776,"text":"好像就針對一個司法案件一個恐龍法官判決大家社會輿論化然結果你們就哈那既然有恐龍法官判這種案子我就修法我就把三級法院制度把它癱瘓了這個完全說不過去就像之前在討論原民會是不是改為無極職也是一樣出來講的理由全是說你看哪一個原民委員不適任結果你們他還在領薪水所以我們要把他改成無極職"},{"start":26481.17,"end":26506.385,"text":"個案是個案,制度是制度。不要為了個案來惡搞這個民主的制度,因為制度是長久的,不管誰執政。今天民進黨執政,可能幾年後馬上就國民黨就執政了。你這惡搞這個制度幹什麼?馬英九在執政的這八年,我們羅志強位高權重。那個時候馬英九在八年,我們民進黨有去改什麼制度嗎?沒有。而且那時候我們少數。"},{"start":26507.898,"end":26532.887,"text":"也都沒有提出要改什麼制度我們就在那個制度我們就在那個體制之下我們進行體制下面的國會抗爭那你現在都為了這些個案你要來修改這個制度今天我早上一再講這一條第四條的修改他一修改下去他就牽涉到所有的"},{"start":26533.874,"end":26557.848,"text":"所有的第12條、第26條、第30條、第32條、第43條、第48條、第75條、第80條、第87條這全部的包括從回避的制度的設計、從延遲辯論、從到判決、到案件受理、到暫時處分的裁定、到這個彈劾的成立、到宣告政黨的解散、到統一解釋法律命令這一些全部通通受到影響所以這個"},{"start":26562.396,"end":26582.534,"text":"這個我還是要在這裡齁希望說這樣的事情好今天就算我什麼會講的你們聽不下去那我今天講的也不是我個人的主張啊我們也看到很多的學界很多的這些法學團體他們也提出這樣的質疑那當然你們也說啊也有很多學界贊成你們的說法好那我們就來開個公聽會吧我們就開個公聽會大家聽聽看哪一邊有道理嘛我們就來聽聽學界"},{"start":26590.779,"end":26595.503,"text":"實務界我們主席最愛強調的實務界實務界找來法學界大家社會團體大家共同來講因為這個憲法訴訟我一再講憲法訴訟政府所提出的憲法訴訟案只是佔非常非常比例非常非常小大部分95%以上的"},{"start":26615.046,"end":26641.817,"text":"憲法訴訟案件都是攸關人民權益他就是憲法訴訟他就是人民權益的最後的救濟手段我們今天所做的不是癱瘓掉大法官的職能而已我們是剝奪了人民在這個人民權益的最後的救濟手段實際上我們做的這個修改一個憲法訴訟法的第四條他就是其實就是剝奪"},{"start":26643.939,"end":26649.566,"text":"人民權益救濟的最後手段這個絕對不可不慎吼那這個"},{"start":26651.291,"end":26680.008,"text":"我是希望說今天看起來從主席剛才的動作雖然主席一再宣稱自己意識中立立了一個針截牌坊在那裡但是既然要立針截牌坊你樣子就要像針截牌坊不要立針截牌坊之後在那邊做一些針截牌坊所不容的事情從剛才說宣布休息我們就看就知道原來主席就是要等一下的人數"},{"start":26681.169,"end":26681.549,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":26709.35,"end":26737.752,"text":"這個看起來就是今天就擺出這樣但是我是覺得說這個是日文叫做最惡最糟糕最壞的選擇是國民黨最糟糕的選擇也是對人民權益最糟糕的結果還是我相信在座的這每一個都是我也相信大家不是沒有良知的大家是不是能夠懸崖勒馬我們開個公聽會"},{"start":26739.551,"end":26765.761,"text":"開了公聽會之後不要在今天說一定要在今天強行表決通過了以上事情的對錯不是誰說的算好不好那你既然你有我就尊重不必你多說我的做法由我自己負責任那謝謝指教那我們下一位請鐘昭偉"},{"start":26768.265,"end":26796.303,"text":"謝謝主席啦其實我始終相信人性本善就像我相信主席絕對不是壞人本性也不惡啦所以我相信對對對對對所以雖然我沒有喝到咖啡但是我還是覺得主席在主持會議基本上是盡量的有說到就會做到但是剛剛我們發慧熊執政委員提到說要由羅委員要領銜要來提案要動議要停止討論就像過去國權獲選法案一樣"},{"start":26797.324,"end":26804.868,"text":"當然現在不是實際啦因為現在現場人數顯然沒有這樣的優勢不過羅委員就不敢講啦因為羅委員常常說的跟做的不太一樣現在笑得很開心但是待會是不是動議就提出來了我也不能保證不過我是覺得啦剛剛我們這樣子討論一下把那個牌子拿掉讓討論的氣氛好一點大家可以看到彼此我覺得這是好的啦好的開始我們珍惜那個好的開始所以呢我很樂意的齁"},{"start":26823.877,"end":26824.758,"text":"我剛仔細聽了提案委員翁的說法"},{"start":26844.289,"end":26861.586,"text":"我特別又對照了一下這是司法院他們的書面報告那這裡面有些是被引用的那我也願意再次的引用就在我們翁委員提案說明的按鈕當中他說他是希望我們能夠進行多數決的時候能夠涵蓋多元意見和觀點"},{"start":26863.007,"end":26889.026,"text":"避免單一或少數觀點來主導其實這個話呢放在哪裡都接準在民主法治社會其實多數決我們要能夠涵蓋多人的意見和觀點避免單一或少數的觀點來主導那萬一無法充分考量各種專業角度和見解導致專業意見不足就會影響到什麼質量跟深度甚至造成公眾這個公信力對這個不管是"},{"start":26889.887,"end":26902.3,"text":"大法官公信力的下降還是對立法院審查法案的下降我是覺得這中間這些話不管是放在對大法官對司法院的評論還是放在我們立法院對我們委員會審查法案的"},{"start":26903.237,"end":26910.262,"text":"．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．"},{"start":26932.378,"end":26943.634,"text":"所以司法院也寫了嘛,司法院現在就顧非無見啊,這個連司法院也認同我們提案委員這一段話所以我希望能夠更多人的觀點,更多的角度,這是第一個"},{"start":26945.162,"end":26955.469,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16"},{"start":26964.177,"end":26988.162,"text":"後面寫極端情形表示這是很少數的情況恐怕當然是個擔憂擔憂極端的情形當然我們在設置設計制度的時候一定要考量但是制度啊沒有辦法防範任何極端的情況出現那我推敲這會不會極端呢這個極端情況會不會出現呢我在借用我們羅志強委員今天的提到如果說要三位大法官假設是三位就要形成多數意見"},{"start":26988.982,"end":27009.854,"text":"表示大概是五個大法官來參加開會嘛因為目前是過半數嘛那你五個要三個好就能做成多數意見了那五個一個大法官的會憲法法庭只有五個大法官那按照迴避的說法那表示什麼有十五位有十位是迴避的那目前歷史上的最高紀錄的是由"},{"start":27011.007,"end":27012.928,"text":"立法院第十條條文修正草案案"},{"start":27029.597,"end":27057.896,"text":"在第十條我們的第二節的迴避的規定第九條他大概是寫大法官因自行迴避的情形第十條呢是寫當事人得向憲法法庭申請大法官迴避的情形那第十條是自行迴避第十條是申請迴避但是第十一條呢還有說大法官任有自行迴避的必要者得經其他大法官過半數同意迴避那今天我們早上講的那個唯一的一次例子有六位大法官齁"},{"start":27058.536,"end":27059.416,"text":"第11條條文修正草案案"},{"start":27076.101,"end":27091.187,"text":"假設這六位大法官他覺得要迴避九位叫做其他大法官那這其他人的九位呢也要有五位認為你們要迴避就構成迴避對不對那如果有五位認為不需要迴避那這六位要迴避也迴避不成那講到極端的狀況就剛剛講的"},{"start":27092.808,"end":27105.215,"text":"如果只有五位能夠參加會議有十位要迴避變成這十位可不可以迴避應不應該迴避由剩下的五位當中來決定而這五位只要三位說可以你們要迴避變成三位來決定"},{"start":27107.987,"end":27129.166,"text":"我是說如果真的要推到極端這是非常極端的狀況啊也就是說我們舉出一個這樣非常極端的狀況15位大法官有10位要迴避而由剩下的5位當中的多數的3位來決定對你們應該自行迴避這個當然在制度上的設計不無可能可是現實上會出現這樣狀況嗎所以這裡就讓我很費解"},{"start":27132.569,"end":27149.917,"text":"有15位大法官有10位要迴避而另外5位當中有3位是認可的這個現實上要發生我覺得是可以討論但是比較有可能發生的就是什麼就是其實也是提案委員自己講的什麼時候會發生現在只剩8個大法官"},{"start":27152.09,"end":27155.635,"text":"為什麼大法官你會認為他剩8個呢?大法官現在15個好好的啊,為什麼你認為他是8個?"},{"start":27169.432,"end":27184.08,"text":"就是因為七個當中十月底就到任請注意是到任而不任期屆滿而不是出缺不是缺位不是缺位出缺是說我們立法院定期改選嘛"},{"start":27184.58,"end":27208.783,"text":"一百一十三個立法委員每四年就要出缺全部出缺一次不是我們會說每四年任期屆滿重新改選大法官請大家看憲法徵修條文我們在第五條的時候就是因為我個人有參與到修憲徵修條文這第五條的規定我非常的熟悉也了解他當時大法官會有這樣的意思就是任期的半半交錯制"},{"start":27209.804,"end":27236.196,"text":"在民國92年的那時候的總統提名而任命的四位大法官分成八人組跟七人組八人組的任期四年七人組的任期八年所以隔了四年之後就有八個任期屆滿要再提八個這是一個常態每隔四年就有七個大法官或八位大法官任期屆滿要重新提名辦理人事同意權的審查來任命所以大法官應該是15個都在位是常態"},{"start":27239.537,"end":27251.331,"text":"要出現說只有8個的情況下是很難去想像的那有人要預設他就會只有8個就是7人組的這個任期這次要屆滿任期的是7人組那剩下的8位因為有點斑斑任期交錯之餘有點被打亂了"},{"start":27256.917,"end":27258.318,"text":"．委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．"},{"start":27275.586,"end":27284.897,"text":"那要出現到有十個迴避,剩下五個來決定的情況,幾乎是不太可能。所以呢,我才說第二個,我剛剛講的第一個建議是說,我們是不是可以來開個公聽會,兩邊大家都可以來討論,避免單一或少數觀點,涵蓋多元意見跟觀點,考量各種專業角度和見解。"},{"start":27295.29,"end":27321.971,"text":"不要讓大社會大眾對我們的公信力下降有所質疑這都是我們提案委員引致於他的內容那至於會不會有極端的狀況呢第三我要談的就是什麼就是我實在是不太能瞭解這個十二條的迴避制度要怎麼迴避因為目前憲法訴訟法第十二條大家看到這十二條怎麼寫他說這個大法官在迴避的時候他不記錄現有總額那不記錄現有總額"},{"start":27326.515,"end":27339.107,"text":"目前任何的迴避制度都不會記錄現有總額但是目前我們提案委員他在第四條他直接規定所謂的現有總額是憲法正規定的15人"},{"start":27341.168,"end":27349.852,"text":"憲法規定所規定15人15人這是不可能變動的修憲很難啊所以我們一般視為這15人的法定總和是一個固定的狀態是一個這個額數是固定的不會動的但是現額現有總和會浮動會浮動"},{"start":27357.196,"end":27367.206,"text":"因此才會因為現有種而浮動才有12條把迴避的從現有種而扣除這也是說我們看到了我們今天司法院這邊寫的第三頁他這裡說憲法訴訟法第12條護身舉語我試著來理解一下翁委員我們解究一下討論一下"},{"start":27378.217,"end":27395.627,"text":"他說目前你的修正草案就是第四條他是把12條之外再加再行定義限有總額但是如果把你的修正草案視為一般規定就是第四條以憲法的15人為一般規定那12條就是特別規定了"},{"start":27396.311,"end":27417.708,"text":"那這法律見解我們主席法律專家那前面第四條是一般規定後面十二條是特別規定所以特別規定似乎就不在一般規定之下是這樣的意思嗎?我也不懂我真的是不懂所以我們也答應了翁委員我們跟他交流一下所以搞了半天到底迴避要不要記錄現有總額當中"},{"start":27422.079,"end":27443.088,"text":"那如果迴避不限有總額第12條根本不用寫啊為什麼因為我們所有的經過第四條的一般規定我們的憲法訴訟法當中所有的限有總額都是15人那既然都是15人是固定的是剛性的規定你有沒有迴避都不影響他的計算啊因為你後面的評議的額度這個決議的門檻決議的這個門檻通通都是因著你的限有總額這是個剛性的"},{"start":27451.311,"end":27452.192,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":27472.527,"end":27494.071,"text":"那我今天也稍微提了一下以我自己做例子當年第九屆的時候當時的大法官審理案件法第五條是規定立法委員現有總而三分之一以上之申請才能夠提出呢 釋憲的申請三分之一三分之一的時候呢 抱歉應該莊委員在那吳委員也在那個時候國民黨有沒有提出釋憲 有啊"},{"start":27500.831,"end":27521.144,"text":"可是人數不夠啊,所以呢就找了高金素美委員啊所以這一段的一個淹源從那時候簽到現在啊但是後來有沒有成立因為高金素美委員呢他當簽他並沒有參與表決啊所以在四格信上的審理呢就認為啊他並沒有因為行使職權而被記錄這三分之一的總額當中"},{"start":27522.864,"end":27539.806,"text":"所以當年這個總額的三分之一,現有總額的三分之一,立法委員現有總額的三分之一的規定是因著當時的大法官審理案件法第五條條項規定以至於當時的在野黨國民黨如果沒有高金素梅五黨籍的這一席是沒辦法提出事件申請的"},{"start":27540.714,"end":27569.208,"text":"因此本席接著在我們的憲法訴訟法在第十屆的時候我們憲法訴訟法第49條我們就把它改成了憲有總額四分之一以上民進黨不管在第九屆第十屆我們都是絕對過半大法官的人選蔡英文前總統要提名的人選基本上民進黨都同意就會通過"},{"start":27570.373,"end":27571.016,"text":"但是別忘了"},{"start":27572.287,"end":27598.408,"text":"蔡英文總統提名的大法官什麼時候才是全部的大法官我今天還做了一個表一直到多少年一直到一直到呢我們馬英九總統啊他在99年任命兩位100年任命四位104年任命四位這99年任命的這兩位最快到期他在什麼時候到期在107年"},{"start":27600.663,"end":27623.891,"text":"一百零七年2018年在第九屆的時候這兩位到齊了才換上蔡總統提名經過民進黨多數國會審查的另外到一百零八年2019年另外四位滿有提名的才有到齊蔡總統才有機會提名要到了一百零四年那四位要到什麼時候到一百一十二年"},{"start":27625.219,"end":27650.492,"text":"一百一十二年這八年的這四位呢到期屆滿了在第十屆的立法院才有立法院國會的多數的民進黨通過了蔡英文總統所提名的不要忘了在這十八年當中蔡英文總統上任之後的大法官一直有十位八位四位不等的大法官在這一個憲法法庭裡面從一百零七年開始"},{"start":27651.272,"end":27671.387,"text":"通過了憲法訴訟法到了110年開始適用這段時間整個司法院的大法官的組成沒有所謂的清一色如果你們認為哪個總統提名的就是那個總統的政黨或者說哪一個國會多數所通過的就是那個政黨的大法官來標示他的顏色我要告訴大家"},{"start":27672.208,"end":27700.563,"text":"到2021年之前為止一百一十年之前為止並沒有所謂的青一色的大法官所謂的綠的或藍的所以基本上我們都是希望說因著我們大法官他在審理案件的時候憲法訴訟關係著人民的權益我們希望能夠來持續的來審理所以才會有雖然民進黨的多數也支持了本席那時候的提案"},{"start":27701.463,"end":27730.026,"text":"將立法委員要提出憲法訴訟的第49條降為總額的四分之一所以我們要知道並不因為你是多數你就要用多數去決定讓少數沒辦法參與相反的當我們是多數的時候當外國會多數的時候多數的一方還是要盡力的去保障少數可以參與包括憲法的四限申請包括立法的形成的決議"},{"start":27731.367,"end":27757.505,"text":"這也是我們翁曉玲提案說明的國會的少數有義務去保障多元意見和觀點避免形成單一或少數觀點要考量各種專業的角度和見解這不是只是哪個黨哪個派的義務是每個民主國會當中每個政黨他應該遵循的一個民主的鐵律所以我在這裡舉這個例子我們就希望說現在呢看起來齁 綽綽吧"},{"start":27761.447,"end":27762.128,"text":"一、二、三、四、五"},{"start":27777.391,"end":27805.294,"text":"五位又要取決於我們召委啦如果召委我剛剛這樣的這個很希望再聽聽我們翁委員對於迴避的意見啦當然我希望在接下來議事審查我們是人性本善我相信你絕對不是壞人我們也希望今天的良好的互動讓我們的國會的論證能夠充分的容納包容各種多元的聲音我們不是要急於的馬上送出委員會停止討論表決然後送出委員會"},{"start":27806.034,"end":27806.514,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":27823.308,"end":27826.811,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十二條的迴避的規定會發生矛盾。我剛剛其實在詢答的時候已經也和副秘書長這邊"},{"start":27846.045,"end":27862.141,"text":"說明基本上不會我只有修一條憲法訴訟法第四條的規定那麼所以呢現在怎麼做在我修法之後一樣的也就是只要是符合法定事由的應迴避的大法官"},{"start":27862.681,"end":27862.781,"text":"）立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":27882.703,"end":27891.095,"text":"這個跟之前的做法沒有兩樣對當然就像你剛剛講的就是如果出現極端情形確實就是因為有極端情形所以才更凸顯出憲法訴訟法即便我現在提案這樣修可是還不完整"},{"start":27898.425,"end":27923.328,"text":"未來的應該要仿照像是韓國法國的做法無論如何你就是一定要有至少6個人7個人才能夠開會當然這個還仔細去研究他們可能迴避的人數也會扣除在外這是一個例外的狀況但是不能說沒有可能發生那最重要的問題就在於說我們接下來如果說會有短暫的時間裡面都會出現有8位大法官的情況"},{"start":27924.569,"end":27950.266,"text":"這不知道持續多久或者是說我們新審查這個大法官人選也許只同意通過一位兩位那如果通過兩位當然就正好符合我們現在講的15位大法官裡面三分之二出席10位就可以開會了但是如果出席一位通過一位九位基本上還是是不適合的所以呢這個部分基本上我們"},{"start":27951.287,"end":27971.724,"text":"是在建立一個好的一個憲法訴訟審理的一個制度而不是說為了杯葛大法官人涉案而杯葛並不是如此所以我希望大家不要誤會我的意思我也是好人啊不是只有吳宗憲是好人我也是好人吧 莊委員你覺得我是不是好人"},{"start":27972.905,"end":27982.297,"text":"對我也是好人嘛對不對法律的界階本來就是擁有不同的意見討論啊不要每次都好像把我形容成像個巫婆一樣可是呢我基本上"},{"start":27984.673,"end":28002.393,"text":"謝謝,如果是叫美麗的巫婆我還可以接受。對,對,不要是醜惡的巫婆。對,我想這就是我覺得有趣的地方,我們大家可以針對法律制度如何完善,然後有不同的討論嘛,意見不同的討論,你們今天基本上已經也反映了,就是有一些"},{"start":28003.544,"end":28003.564,"text":"議員吳委員"},{"start":28028.078,"end":28048.603,"text":"謝謝因為剛剛在朝野協商所以沒有來現在我非常珍惜可以大體討論的機會也希望這個剛剛看到在野黨團的同仁趕快去呼朋引伴趕快邀請其他為道場的委員來到場是不是我非常樂意大家一起是來參與討論而不是進行發動了表決"},{"start":28052.324,"end":28052.364,"text":"憲法訴訟法"},{"start":28066.641,"end":28091.048,"text":"我們現在的立法院113個立法委員大家注意每一次在院會表決的時候主席的宣布是在場人數幾位然後贊成幾位反對幾位過半就通過那是在場人數如果依翁曉玲委員的邏輯"},{"start":28092.848,"end":28094.529,"text":"司法及法制委員會．"},{"start":28113.278,"end":28132.209,"text":"本黨團的總召柯建民總召他因為腳傷今天真的沒有辦法來開會否則他願意非常樂意因為這是攸關臺灣憲政法制重要的修法但他因為沒有辦法來如果說依翁曉玲委員凡是在大法官的憲法法庭都要法定原額來取代現有原額"},{"start":28136.553,"end":28152.343,"text":"我覺得大家想看看這個合理性而且現在大法官最癥結的是沒有任何一個在可能大法官他出缺的時候有任何可以來這個叫什麼?地補嗎?這叫地補嗎?"},{"start":28156.072,"end":28156.452,"text":"我們該精進的制度是什麼?副秘書長"},{"start":28183.491,"end":28190.134,"text":"各位好,謝謝委員垂詢。大概有一些國家的制度會,假設認滿了之後,雖然認滿,但是新繼任的沒有順利產生的話,會延長他的任期到繼任為止。那也有另外在任命站職的大法官。所以我們現在並沒有這樣的機制。"},{"start":28204.321,"end":28231.591,"text":"今天等一下如果在野黨的委員又要強行用表決那抱歉你們在場可能六位七位就要決定憲法訴訟法這麼重要的修法要往前邁進快轉的到下一關去如果我們要求大法官凡事要15位在場那我們今天六位七位就有這樣子的權力來決定憲法訴訟法的修法嗎"},{"start":28233.191,"end":28261.236,"text":"我們也要來提出探討當初憲法訴訟法從2019修正還有當初在立的時候我去翻閱了過去在立法院所有的發言國民黨從來沒有就憲法法庭的組成及議決的門檻正式的提案表示過不同的意見當初在修憲法訴訟法"},{"start":28263.802,"end":28283.52,"text":"有召開過公聽會,我要強調這麼重要的法案都有公聽會讓社會各界來表達意見不管是在制定或是一休的時候都有公聽會的程序,現在要二休在野黨團主席卻不願意來表明我們應當進行公聽會"},{"start":28285.666,"end":28311.056,"text":"那我來翻閱過去在審議的過程國民黨團從來沒有對於憲法法庭的組成跟議決門檻提出任何不同的意見也就是現在的版本是當初大家都同意也認為合理可行的版本現在為什麼要修呢司馬昭之心路人皆知馬"},{"start":28312.76,"end":28341.563,"text":"從上會期國會擴權法案強行上路強行通過程序違憲實質違憲之後國民黨團再也黨團開始對憲法法庭對大法官看不順眼開始劍指大法官開始來關切憲法訴訟的制度現在再來擴大說他多麼的不合理用不存在的極端案例"},{"start":28344.437,"end":28359.473,"text":"來說來欺騙社會以後會有兩三個大法官就決定憲法的解釋今天從早上九點到現在我問了幾個小時七八個小時到底發生過哪一個極端案例"},{"start":28360.834,"end":28374.201,"text":"有兩三個大法官就決定了憲法的解釋沒有啊我反而可以拿出明確的數字2019年憲訴法上路之後採用新制有48個"},{"start":28376.622,"end":28389.698,"text":"裁判出來的憲法法庭的判決案例47個案子都有超過10位以上的大法官參與評議因為有迴避制度"},{"start":28392.918,"end":28420.902,"text":"而48個案當中有37個案是15名大法官全數參與評議哪裏有兩位三位大法官極端小數的意見就來決定釋憲案的內容呢我從早上問這個問題問了這麼久問了羅志強委員問了翁曉玲委員你們告訴我哪裏發生過這個極端案例你們說不出來嘛因為沒有"},{"start":28422.239,"end":28448.86,"text":"唯一可能的就是你們繼續杯葛大法官的人事同意權讓七名大法官沒有辦法逮捕成功未來如果只剩八個大法官確實他的母數就變少了但是不要忘了我剛剛也說德國的憲法法庭分兩庭他的一庭就是八個人八個人是用台灣同樣的門檻三分之二參與評議二分之一就可以來決定"},{"start":28451.069,"end":28472.662,"text":"德國有誰說他們是少數意見?在德國有誰去挑戰憲法法庭的法律專業呢?憲政的理念呢?所以為什麼當初在修這個法律這個法的時候國民黨團從來沒有提出門檻、緣和的意見?現在劍指要修法!"},{"start":28474.02,"end":28497.123,"text":"這完全就是布妞七要彎嘛完全就是一個對於國會擴權法案的釋憲結果對於大法官來進行報復、公結、盜授大法官的行為但是在野黨的委員也不要害怕國會擴權法案的釋憲這週五才要宣判沒有人知道釋憲的結果是什麼"},{"start":28498.277,"end":28505.039,"text":"如果你們對於過去上會期自己推的國會扣除法案有信心沒有違憲那何懼之有呢?提高平易的、平決的門檻就是大開司法改革的倒車我想問一下副秘書長"},{"start":28520.477,"end":28531.741,"text":"當初當初把它修為就是現在從三分之二修為二分之一議決的門檻是什麼時候基於什麼樣子的過程什麼樣子的討論來決定現在的門檻"},{"start":28534.557,"end":28561.089,"text":"公務員報告那是施改2017年施改國事會議的時候基於說原來的這個門檻導致很太過高很多的那個是事件案件沒有辦法去如期的符合人民的期待所以才要才改成說要求改為二分之一通過所以這個是施改國事會議大家的共識那施改國事會議當初是綜合的大法官過去73年事件經驗後獲制的結論吧"},{"start":28564.892,"end":28566.677,"text":"他們做出的分析你可以再進一步說嗎?"},{"start":28569.292,"end":28594.643,"text":"因為以前在三分之二那大法官在考決門檻三分之二的時候那麼導致很多的那個事先案這個贊成的也沒過三分之二反對也沒過三分之二那懸得非常的久有的案件也拖到非常的多年說了十幾年說了很久所以呢這是綜合過去73年的事先經驗夠獲製的結論"},{"start":28597.464,"end":28621.284,"text":"司改國是會議跨黨派參與者所有的社會團體學者專家大家不分黨派或制的實務運作的結論嘛所以不要帶著有色眼鏡現在把大法官全部當作是某個政黨你們說的大法官是某某黨開的不需要這樣帶著有色眼鏡"},{"start":28626.187,"end":28640.66,"text":"行的正坐的直半夜就不怕鬼敲門不要提違憲的案子就不要害怕釋憲不害怕釋憲就不需要急著來修這種毀憲的憲法訴訟法我們民進黨團的呼籲跟訴求"},{"start":28647.448,"end":28674.92,"text":"請主席既然您是盤案的委員我們還是尊重盤案委員我們從早呼籲到現在這麼多個社會團體提出來的聯署案包括法律界包括人權界包括司改界為什麼開一個公聽會有如此的困難這個問題我們今天在場這些幾位委員大家都"},{"start":28676.345,"end":28685.113,"text":"努力的表達我們的意見但我們沒有權利因此來阻卻更多元的社會的討論主席公聽會有這麼難嗎我也非常期待這麼重要的一個法律案如果在野黨的委員認為大法官十個人來決定就太扯了"},{"start":28701.584,"end":28730.351,"text":"那我們今天靠六位七位藍白的委員加起來的多數就要強行把這個法案推進到下一步我們怎麼要求別人就怎麼要求自己啊你們說的單一觀點你們說的少數意見來主導你們認為憲法法庭會這樣現在藍白兩黨正在此時此刻的司法法制委員會你們要遂行的不就是這樣子的作為嗎"},{"start":28732.546,"end":28759.557,"text":"所以拜託公聽會一點都不困難像個會期國會擴權法案在野黨的委員最喜歡公聽會凡事要求公聽會羅志強委員也好喜歡公聽會我們一起在公聽會來聆聽民間的聲音主席不要我說了一整天都把我當空氣公聽會有這麼難嗎"},{"start":28762.403,"end":28786.691,"text":"可不可以交開公聽會再來進行相關的審議條文雖然少但是牽涉的層面非常大我們要今天六位七位委員的表決就來推翻司改國是會議多年的討論嗎主席你是司法界的主席"},{"start":28790.134,"end":28790.494,"text":"委員翁曉玲"},{"start":28807.493,"end":28808.655,"text":"這麼多的民間團體這麼多的團體這麼多的團體我在發言民間司法改革基金會人權公約施行監督聯盟"},{"start":28822.33,"end":28851.51,"text":"台灣勞工陣線公民監督國會聯盟台灣刑事辯護律師協會環境權保障基金會台灣人權促進會國際特赦組織台灣分會中華民國身心障礙聯盟等十餘個團體還有包括目前不斷的加入聯署的數十位律師加速的串聯要求先進行大法官的人事同意權"},{"start":28853.153,"end":28855.661,"text":"在進行憲法訴訟法的修正的討論"},{"start":28858.683,"end":28858.843,"text":"吳宗憲認為你們都是少數"},{"start":28887.143,"end":28891.184,"text":"一場公聽會兩場公聽會如果你認為這些小數團體對我們可以邀請多數的團體嗎?對他們的聲音對你可以邀請更多的人一起來討論你沒有公聽會"},{"start":28911.311,"end":28917.179,"text":"你預設了立場!你預設了立場!你預設了立場!吳宗憲、昭偉,您過去也來自於民間,您預設了立場!這麼多的團體,你可以邀請更多的團體終於拿出你的"},{"start":28929.835,"end":28932.497,"text":"吳宗憲召委我可以講幾句嗎?"},{"start":28957.759,"end":28981.023,"text":"我跟你們講齁如果這樣我們按照我們主持會你們都有那麼多意見那我就依照程序來其實我已經拿到很久了不是啦但是我一直讓你們好好的把他講完你們今天阿不要我跟你講中高委如果你講那個話他都沒什麼好談你又要說一直永遠我們討論很久了我跟你講我剛剛拿到那張補端是在那邊耐心的聽你們講完耐心的聽我們討論"},{"start":28984.184,"end":29006.886,"text":"謝謝您的耐心,我們討論法案不需要好好討論嗎?討論法案不需要惦記於您的耐心好嗎?等一下等一下等一下等一下,你們可以等一下啦,你先不要念你先不要念,召委,剛剛我就舉手了喔我剛剛舉手,我很有風度,因為提案人翁曉玲委員他要發言我就讓他發言喔"},{"start":29009.248,"end":29010.95,"text":"我今天拿到提案提議我就已經放在這裡"},{"start":29029.528,"end":29036.055,"text":"我都沒有直接要提出來,是因為我希望大家好好的講,但是因為你人不夠,我跟你講,吳東憲你這樣講我就看不起你囉,我就幫你還原喔,你是因為人不夠,你把他放起來"},{"start":29045.925,"end":29048.166,"text":"我剛剛有沒有舉手?你有沒有做才事?你出發你剛才事說現在已經要停止討論的送到主席台上來了我剛舉手欸你也沒有跟我說我不能發言欸我們現在進行表決"},{"start":29070.535,"end":29078.52,"text":"你這個哪叫一個法律人在當召委呢?今天是何其專業的在做討論呢?沒有人有政治語言在發情緒發言呢?吳宗憲?你這樣拿出來?吳宗憲你這樣...高吳宗憲說他很耐心的讓我們討論吳宗憲為什麼我舉手你不讓我發言?"},{"start":29098.755,"end":29116.32,"text":"我們的討論需要你的耐心這是我們的直訪你要表決之前麻煩你讓我把我自己發言結束好不好反對又在強行表決了又在強行表決了又在強行表決了沒有討論不是民主又來了反對反對為什麼要停止討論呢"},{"start":29126.502,"end":29131.123,"text":"不給公聽會討論不讓社會討論也不讓立法委員討論為什麼大體討論要停止你給我一個解釋嘛為什麼大體討論只能講一次就把它停止你告訴我你告訴我我剛剛已經講了你剛剛沒有才是講一輪我剛剛已經講了齁你剛剛講了什麼有人提出希望停止討論不不我已經還沒有提出停止討論以前我已經舉手要發言了"},{"start":29156.089,"end":29157.39,"text":"為什麼我舉手以後你不讓我發言?你跟我講清楚就好!"},{"start":29171.21,"end":29194.697,"text":"我是何其尊重你們張偉行使權利為什麼我坐在這個地方沒有半句的政治語言你不能不讓我發言你結束了嗎?不!給我解釋清楚張偉沒有比我大那個我們現在已經是停職討論的東西不是嘛!你告訴我嘛!不是停職討論嘛!連主條也沒有嘛!現在是大體討論嘛!是要提案停職討論"},{"start":29195.737,"end":29197.48,"text":"不不不 這哪是停止討論呢 你們是提案是要停止 你今天已經錯過兩支提案內容了"},{"start":29203.732,"end":29212.656,"text":"你不懂我就教你就好嘛不要旁邊一直問嘛不是嘛你們聽主討論什麼你要告訴我啊沒有主體要聽主討論什麼呢不是嘛你要表決什麼要講啊你要表決什麼要講啊你們怎麼都變笨了呢不是你要表決什麼嘛不是"},{"start":29232.965,"end":29245.333,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案。）二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。）二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。）"},{"start":29268.679,"end":29281.863,"text":"主席謝謝主席還有在場所有的委員我想那個召委你必須要解釋清楚啦這一次啊整個憲法訴訟法的一個修法我們從早上這樣子討論"},{"start":29285.543,"end":29296.379,"text":"我也肯認說提案委員翁曉玲委員他的起心動念他認為要有更專業讓有更多的一個角度進來探討我沒有意見啊"},{"start":29298.066,"end":29298.186,"text":"議員翁曉玲"},{"start":29325.899,"end":29343.31,"text":"大法官會議的一個做出的一個裁決說萬年國會他必須要終止的時候那個時候大家就整個社會對整個威權時代中國國民黨在統治的時候哪怕氣氛是多麼的肅殺社會是給大法官給他們鼓掌的那會進入到1999年"},{"start":29350.456,"end":29377.622,"text":"國大去擴全莫名其妙多為自己延長了兩年多的一個任期也幫立法委員多增加了一點任期結果呢社會滑爛社會滑爛以後國大也報復立法院也想給人家報復可是最終啊還是慢慢去補破網不然本來當初中國國民黨是要幹什麼要廢到大法官會議啊要砍到人家的專業家籍啊"},{"start":29379.312,"end":29406.229,"text":"可是呢民意不在那個地方嘛我們四次大法官一共做了800多號的一個大法官會議解釋還有限裁制到現在一個限判制加起來啊這幾十年所做出來你去把它做一個平均啊那一年才十幾個啊那如果說這一年十幾個裡面你去把它去除啊"},{"start":29407.29,"end":29428.001,"text":"除一除以後以各位今天來看的就哎喲你的大法官給你15個有緣和你們做出來的判決竟然還那麼少那以今天如果再通過的話我擔憂的是說造成整個憲政程序的一個憲政整個體制的一個衝擊啊我擔心的是這個啊所以我才會講說那是不是我們該來進行一場公聽"},{"start":29430.342,"end":29451.892,"text":"中國國民黨現在坐在那個地方五位我用膝蓋翔我也知道到最後以吳宗憲的風格你到最後一定舉手贊成中國國民黨合理啊你們同黨的啊可是重點是說今天的修法對整個台灣的憲政體制衝擊到底會有多大我從早上到現在的發言我從來沒有站在民主進步黨的立場我站在憲法法庭的立場當年1999年啊大法官會議"},{"start":29460.56,"end":29472.21,"text":"這樣做出這一號解釋的時候啊我那個時候啊我跟各位講啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做"},{"start":29487.487,"end":29503.476,"text":"剛好都是我們大法官會議所做出來的這一些解釋其實都是在限縮憲政機關的權利不是限縮說你行政機關的行政命令你本身是違憲了 把它宣告無效"},{"start":29505.267,"end":29530.948,"text":"不然就講說你這個立法院所做出的一個法律你抵觸到憲法了無效都是在講這些那我們今天我們整個提案我們站在立法院的立場難道我們不是應該站在人民的立場廣開救濟之路讓我們的大法官可以萬一碰到人民他訴訟上的權利受損害的時候讓他再找一條生路嗎結果我們反其道而行"},{"start":29532.213,"end":29538.359,"text":"我們反其道而行那在座各位你把它想想看喔等一下如果大家表決完了以後今天主條等一下如果主條結束了以後我們表決輸了輸了以後呢到院會以後我相信在院會裡面的結構大家很清楚啊大家對他的認知真的那麼深刻嗎黨團牌子舉起來"},{"start":29557.785,"end":29573.55,"text":"國民黨你們真的以為你們人數這樣就贏了兩票就一定通過嗎我大膽跟你揣測黃國昌跟黃珊珊這個憲法訴訟法的一個修正案他不敢站在你們那邊啊我大膽的預測他們沒有那麼大膽你至少嘛你們最喜歡講的公聽會嘛"},{"start":29582.13,"end":29596.135,"text":"我們雙方,各位你把它想想看,中國國民黨你們今天所提出來的這樣一個憲法訴訟法的一個修正草案,你們這個理由有辦法來博導其他政黨的人,或者有辦法來說服我們的民眾嗎?你們簡直是把憲法法庭,把這些大法官當成立法院的敵人,不對啊!"},{"start":29604.81,"end":29626.315,"text":"我們立法院本身也是一個憲政機關啊我們應該跟憲法法庭我們應該跟司法院我們共同來形成整個憲政的一個成長才對啊只因為當法官會議裡面憲法法庭做出一號你說實質上好像有點廢死把以後在整個各個法院裡面限縮的法院判處死刑這樣的一個門檻把它加高以後採取這樣的一個報復這不對"},{"start":29631.056,"end":29634.981,"text":"這不對 你這樣會傷及無辜 那個無辜叫做誰 那個無辜叫做人民欸 那個無辜是人民欸 如果說你吳宗憲今天稍微有一點良知的話 你應該上來講說 我們就公聽吧 反正我們人數就是比你們多 這樣才對啊 主席不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":29650.438,"end":29659.063,"text":"所以我再三苦口婆心啦,你不要我講我也會說這麼多啦,到那個議事規則只要你罵我我就不罵,我要說的機會不太多,只要說下去,但是我還是苦口婆心啦稍微,如果可以你就給它公聽啦,召開一場公聽,讓整個攸關到以後的憲政制度,我們的憲法法庭的訴訟裡面"},{"start":29675.607,"end":29701.141,"text":"到底要多少緣合他本身出席要多少要做評議要做判決要多少我是覺得這很合理我大膽講你這15個裡面我們今天談這個人數會影響到哪幾個部分第一個你這個緣合涉及到整個案件要不要受理第一個"},{"start":29702.361,"end":29707.843,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。）二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。）二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。）"},{"start":29718.388,"end":29718.548,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":29738.758,"end":29762.787,"text":"所以從過去到現在每一號的大法官會議解釋會限縮到的全部都是行政部門會限縮到的全部都是立法機關全部都在為人民廣開救濟之路那我們卻讓我們以後的憲法法庭讓他做出憲法的一個判決的時候讓他更困難這對嗎你去把它看1999年國民大會這樣的一個擴權"},{"start":29767.089,"end":29777.475,"text":"兩千年的司制做出來以後我告訴各位國民黨是受到人民的透氣的你再去看看2004年你那個佔調會的時候你做出來剛好跟會議解釋還是一樣的把你宣告違憲然後結論呢?的大選呢?"},{"start":29791.539,"end":29814.181,"text":"國民黨其實我今天早上到現在我其實都沒有講政治上的語言我都講法律上從整個憲政制度裡面來跟大家來看看那我提供這一些來讓大家做反省其實只有一個我們都沒有辦法用專業彼此來說服彼此我也不敢完全去否定你就是因為有爭議所以我拜託公聽會啦拜託啦拜託啦"},{"start":29816.572,"end":29831.021,"text":"主席不寫了,剛才黃國昌要會議詢問,民進黨反對,結果黃國昌沒辦法會議,現在我也要有會議給我一分鐘我先簡單解釋一下"},{"start":29842.591,"end":29849.696,"text":"我先說明一下剛剛我在五四要委員在發言的時候我們就拿到那個動議單那個"},{"start":29854.539,"end":29870.088,"text":"等五委員說完的時候我就處理那至於說中委員剛剛是不是有舉手確實有舉手這是事實但就像平常我們登記發言的時候一樣如果停止的話那我們就是直接處理停止即使你今天有來登記我們也是處理這個"},{"start":29871.289,"end":29871.309,"text":"羅委員"},{"start":29902.025,"end":29929.444,"text":"我的會議行為很簡單我們在場應該所有人給我們吳宗憲主席一點鼓勵阿今天為對 謝謝阿因為今天講很簡單一點其實吳宗憲主席就太客氣了所以才為今天大家反而意見那麼多我舉個簡單的例子剛剛其實為什麼我剛剛特別講阿就大家就算說大體討論阿上來在發言台講啦然後有限定時間登記就比較有秩序一點否則的話我看都是從盤古開天開始講起"},{"start":29931.545,"end":29936.729,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．完整會議"},{"start":29947.148,"end":29965.937,"text":"我們都還沒進入主條欸有 我要跟大家回顧一件歷史事件啦齁民進黨邱毅英當主席的時候民進黨圈圈張三王 王武李氏當主席的時候欸是直接沒收討論就直接表決輾壓欸你都不要一直老是讓我去提醒這些事情還給你拖到下午鐘吳宗憲你傻了我跟你講民進黨不會給你拖到下午的啦"},{"start":29971.96,"end":29990.904,"text":"所以我在這邊阿我是對我們吳宗憲主席我真的一定要上來會議詢問一下幫他抱屈阿就是他主席真的對大家太好了就是一個非常nice的主席阿大家不要用他對大家發言的善意阿拿作為攻擊他的武器阿我相信對主席真的不公平阿想想民進黨以前怎麼做有在吳宗憲1%對所謂的在野黨對少數黨的尊重嗎沒有啦謝謝"},{"start":30000.331,"end":30022.106,"text":"那現在大體討論進行完畢那我們現在進行主條討論沒有沒有我也有會議詢問好那我們現在先審查第四條那第四條有翁曉玲委員等17人提案沒有啊主席你剛剛是怎樣現在請問一下您現在在進行的程序是主條討論主條討論主條討論了對那我還有會議詢問要講"},{"start":30031.656,"end":30054.869,"text":"主席今天的討論沒有討論不是民主上個會期有國會擴權法案這個會期憲法訴訟法再來一遍嗎剛剛羅志強委員把吳宗憲委員主持議事把他說的多麼的偉大多麼的了不起多麼的好棒棒"},{"start":30056.263,"end":30062.207,"text":"任何一個召委在這裡讓立委們針對議案充分討論這就是基本的職責。"},{"start":30064.9,"end":30091.492,"text":"還說什麼這是給予你們的耐心剛剛羅志強說吳宗憲非常的nice這是一種善意天啊立委在這裡討論議案要求充分的討論對話是要來端視主持的主席的善意的nice的耐心嗎這從頭到尾顯示的就是在野黨一種我就是比你大我就是永遠你"},{"start":30095.36,"end":30095.761,"text":"主席"},{"start":30113.951,"end":30116.814,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。）二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。）"},{"start":30134.09,"end":30135.551,"text":"宮廷會有這麼困難嗎?議案連宮廷會連社會表達意見都給剝奪?你們要這樣強行碾壓?"},{"start":30163.08,"end":30163.48,"text":"國民黨最愛公聽會羅志強最愛公聽會"},{"start":30191.025,"end":30193.346,"text":"可不可以公聽會再好好來審視憲法訴訟法修法的必要性、實績表、合理性、釋法性?我們今天已經經過充分的討論為什麼不好好來處理我們早上到現在的訴求呢?因為今天很多人已經提了很多次了說"},{"start":30214.554,"end":30236.621,"text":"因為你都不聽啊對啊很多人你也說了很多人都提了很多次我哪是在鬧場我在會議詢問我在請求主席聆聽民意聆聽我們的訴求那主席你只要回答我們來交開公聽會再來審查我五秒鐘就可以結束我的發言"},{"start":30237.901,"end":30248.067,"text":"我五秒鐘就可以結束我的發言只要您同意Say YES不要害怕公聽會回答問題那您可以30秒回答為什麼不開公聽會"},{"start":30257.953,"end":30262.077,"text":"為什麼不開公聽會為什麼不開公聽會憲法訴訟法這麼重要你要摧毀憲法法庭你要架空大法官不開公聽會就這樣硬幹"},{"start":30275.769,"end":30304.345,"text":"那今天早上當然我們是說三十二條是第一項還是第二項其實因為我講第一項是因為第二項是要書面啦那現在看如果說你們要提書面出來那我就請使第三十二條第二項阿如果不提書面我就三十二條第一項看看兩位的意思因為今天早上是沒有提書面啦阿如果還是說你們要提書面反駁我的那個不同意我的那個主席的才是那就是進入表決這就是議事規則的做法嗎"},{"start":30305.345,"end":30315.57,"text":"你們可以不喜歡但是我還是依照議事規則做好不好我問你的是公聽會我沒有問你議事規則我再請教你公聽會我剛剛在認真的大體討論我才第一輪而已第一輪而已我很努力的表述我的意見沒有想到我認真的討論你完全當空氣原來你完全沒有聽進去因為你只是在利用我發言的時間在等人 在call人 在揪人趕快把國民黨的委員請到現場來表決"},{"start":30334.76,"end":30360.95,"text":"讓你們成為多數表決會贏是這樣嗎我們在嚴肅的討論你看似給我發言事實上你是在call人等人叫人來表決讓你們可以強行演壓不是只有你的意見叫做意見今天在場還有這麼多的委員那我們如果說大家意見不一致的情況下對於要不要召開公聽會的意見不一致的情況下那這樣子"},{"start":30362.895,"end":30363.556,"text":"主席,我們會議是要開到什麼時候?開到五點半"},{"start":30380.154,"end":30383.618,"text":"因為我們要繼續開是吧所以要宣告你說我們今天的會議繼續超過五點半我們繼續把它開完還是說我們今天的會議開到五點半這個主席可以宣告啦我已經準備好了要宣告了嘛 謝謝你"},{"start":30399.395,"end":30401.016,"text":"那表示說不受五點半的限制囉?"},{"start":30416.643,"end":30432.119,"text":"主席,到了5點半之前,我們還有半個多小時的時間。所以我的意思是說,因為你也當主席,我也當過主席。如果你把這個時間好好的表達出來,那我們就可以比較有餘裕的來討論。"},{"start":30433.24,"end":30439.423,"text":"甚至你剛剛如果你的意思是說我們的會議時間不受五點半的限制如果繼續講超過五點半我們就繼續討論那我也很樂於聽到你的宣告但你剛剛的宣告是說進行到今天所討論的事情完畢為止那這個我們就有一個之前的經驗什麼叫做討論的事情完畢為止就是待會又有人提出停止討論的時候就是優勢表決或者主席加上你關鍵的一票那就停止討論了"},{"start":30460.652,"end":30467.115,"text":"那這樣的話呢等於啊你也在五點半之前完成過水就是表示這個委員會有進行審查有詢答有大體討論有逐條只要你只是沒有說在大體討論的時候廣泛交換意見的就被終止了"},{"start":30478.559,"end":30478.599,"text":"議員翁曉玲"},{"start":30503.547,"end":30512.831,"text":"您的第一項和第二項,您早上的宣布只來自於6... 針對本次團體委員會議之會議時間, 您請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當進行公聽會?"},{"start":30512.831,"end":30514.152,"text":"延長至全部議程...請問一下有沒有不同意見?"},{"start":30514.152,"end":30515.333,"text":"請問一下有沒有不同意見?"},{"start":30515.333,"end":30519.294,"text":"有分,全部議程報告不報告,召開公聽會。我們要求召開公聽會。 很好笑。"},{"start":30529.346,"end":30530.167,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":30548.507,"end":30568.665,"text":"主席我有說我不同意嗎?吳世耀說不同意沒有他是詢問啊剛剛不是說不同意他剛剛說不同意沒有沒有沒有我們在詢問啊因為我們表決標的吳世耀委員有表達不同意齁那我們就針對這個違反我們來進行表決有我這邊有聽到你剛剛亂哄哄你到底在宣讀什麼啊我們在請你講清楚嘛你亂哄哄請問你在宣讀什麼不要這樣子開大門走大路"},{"start":30575.171,"end":30599.103,"text":"完完全全複製上個會期的做法假意讓我們發言然後就開始一個一個的進行停止討論然後清點人數然後表決舉手平手的時候主席要關鍵一票讓這個表決停止討論在場出席人數10人請贊成者請舉手剛剛的提案表決什麼他說延長到所有的議事通過為止依然討論完畢"},{"start":30604.312,"end":30629.83,"text":"好 那請放下 那反對者請舉手我只是要求公聽會嘛 全部的預算報告話公聽會我當然反對 我認為今天如果討論沒有共識 我們就下次繼續審查啊就下次繼續審查啊 今天大家這樣子沒有共識而且每次都5比5 要讓主席當壞人我們就"},{"start":30633.036,"end":30656.806,"text":"就開到時間到就下次繼續討論了有光曉玲委員等17人提案請問就本題第四條的部分有無意義有意義阿你連主條上面沒有主條上面都有無意義你連主條上面沒有主條上面都有無意義你是直接表決這個部分齁我道歉一下"},{"start":30660.447,"end":30661.788,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":30685.879,"end":30712.517,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":30714.895,"end":30717.361,"text":"主席你是說要休息了是不是那就休息吧"},{"start":30719.659,"end":30721.12,"text":"第四條的部分請問在場的委員有無意見?"},{"start":30748.036,"end":30757.279,"text":"有意見的話我們就看有意見的人可以提出來發言有意見的請舉手發言"},{"start":30775.161,"end":30781.285,"text":"主席各位同仁現在進入主條主條我們就來看我們這個翁曉玲委員等17人所擬具的這個憲法訴訟法第四條現在應該是第四條"},{"start":30805.373,"end":30821.647,"text":"第四條的這個條文他要把這個現有緣額解釋為本法所有的現有緣額就是法定緣額今天我一再強調"},{"start":30823.2,"end":30825.441,"text":"第二十六條顏值辯論需要三分之二出席"},{"start":30853.527,"end":30862.561,"text":"也原本的現有總額變成法定原額這個第三十條判決要三分之二參與評議"},{"start":30864.81,"end":30883.23,"text":"第32條案件受理必須要三分之二參與評議第43條暫時處分之裁定要三分之二參與評議這個原本都是現有總額現在他因為改第四條所以讓這些通通變成法定總額"},{"start":30885.254,"end":30899.112,"text":"還有第75條彈劾案的成立要三分之二同意原本是現有總額的三分之二現在會變成法定總額的三分之二第80條宣告政黨解散也是原本"},{"start":30900.382,"end":30924.823,"text":"是現有原額三分之二的同意未來如果修改了第四條它就會變成要法定原額三分之二的同意還要統一解釋法律命令這個二分之一的參與評議這個也會變成也就是說修這個第四條我們今天修這個第四條等於我們這剛剛我所唸的所有條文通通發生了法律的這個變動構成要進的變動"},{"start":30928.885,"end":30953.424,"text":"那麼這個這樣子的修法齁我們從今天早上一直一直闡述到現在這樣子的這樣的修法我們一直認為到底是什麼樣的理由跟前提讓國民黨今天必須這樣子動員必須在這裡這樣子排案然後主席要這樣子配合演出要等人數到了然後這個進行表決"},{"start":30955.803,"end":30980.905,"text":"為什麼要這樣?到底是有什麼急迫急切的理由?結果一聽國民黨所提出的理由都是現在的這個大法官會議作出的暫時處分然後這個大法官會議對於這個死刑核限之後他把這個程序的嚴謹化這個部分他們不滿所以他們第一在整個發言過程中"},{"start":30982.199,"end":30996.555,"text":"就抹黑大法官會議說大法官會議就是政黨的打手啦就為了這兩個案子這個抹黑大法先把大法官會議破曬、鬥臭"},{"start":30998.82,"end":31000.801,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":31025.077,"end":31033.689,"text":"司法委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案案。．完整會議司法委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。．完整會議"},{"start":31041.839,"end":31064.906,"text":"然後再來羅志強認為現在提名大法官都是支持費時的所以要重新提名就你們認為就要重新提名不讓立法院大家來審一審看看立法院其他人除了你們三個以外其他人到底覺得他們適不適合啊還是你們三個人說了算就要求總統重新提名之後才要審查啊然後不審查擺明了現在不審查現在大法官"},{"start":31071.289,"end":31096.256,"text":"的提名人然後再來再修改修改這個這個憲法訴訟法就是要癱瘓未來的憲法法庭憲法法庭我再一次強調他是人民權益人民權益救濟的最後救濟手段今天我們做這樣的決議未來影響到的是人民的權益未來所有我們過去憲法法庭所做的所有的這些這些這些"},{"start":31097.987,"end":31117.121,"text":"這些判決大部分都是牽涉人民權益的包括負稅包括食品衛生包括代理教師的資格這些都是人民的權益未來遇到這樣子的狀況憲法法庭被癱瘓了他就沒有辦法救濟了這個我們看到這一段時間以來"},{"start":31124.895,"end":31143.626,"text":"考試院的人事權也不省,癱瘓考試院未來的運作。行政院預算退回,要癱瘓行政院的運作。然後修改憲法訴訟法,癱瘓司法院憲法法庭的運作。要整個癱瘓這個政府的運作。到底誰會做這種事情,要癱瘓中華民國政府?"},{"start":31152.714,"end":31173.259,"text":"這是中華民國的敵人才會做這種事情啊所以現在齁我們今天經過一整天的討論我是希望我們一直今天整天我們就起兩個兩個訴求讓讓其實國民黨一直沒有回答這兩個訴求說到底為什麼不要第一我們認為應該召開公聽會"},{"start":31176.668,"end":31181.993,"text":"先召開一個公聽會就召開一個公聽會然後再來進入審查第二我認為應該司法院大法官的人事同意權我們先審查審查完才有我們今天立法的前提"},{"start":31199.262,"end":31207.347,"text":"審查了我們大家覺得說啊真的立法院最後表決了這個大法官會議全部都不過那就有說未來是不是剩下8個人也審查都不排不讓立法院大家針對其他委員就跟程序委員會退回總預算一樣不讓其他的委員來參與討論在程序委員會就把他處理掉然後在這裡我們"},{"start":31224.977,"end":31235.965,"text":"不讓其他委員來討論他們認為大法官到底現在總統所提名的大法官到底施任或不施任然後就直接修改憲法訴訟法這個齁 這都是我認為說這個我剛講過任何對個案的不滿都不應該惡搞這個體制體制是長長久久"},{"start":31248.652,"end":31254.895,"text":"今天民進黨執政未來可能就是國民黨執政今天國民黨多數未來可能國民黨變少數所以這個制度就是長長久久在那裡對個案的不滿我們就針對個案來討論不滿大法官會議做出不滿這個憲法法庭做出暫時處分的討論我們就在憲法法庭上面辯論就在憲法法庭針對這個案子來談"},{"start":31276.277,"end":31302.11,"text":"而不是就這樣子來癱瘓憲法法庭所以我今天我個人在這裡表達今天在逐條討論我表達我個人對於修改對於這個翁曉玲委員等17人擬具的這個憲法訴訟法第四條的修正案個人僅表不同意也希望本委員會也希望本委員會能夠懸崖勒馬"},{"start":31303.473,"end":31306.695,"text":"我們下一位請翁委員那翁委員的下一位就是中委員本席要再次的強調"},{"start":31327.356,"end":31344.562,"text":"這次提出憲法訴訟法第四條明定大法官現有總額就是憲法徵修條文所指的15位大法官我們的目的是為了要健全憲法法庭審議的制度"},{"start":31345.362,"end":31362.881,"text":"不是為了其他的什麼思議故意要去癱瘓憲法法庭我們已經發現了有這樣的一個憲法裁判程序上面的漏洞當然必須要透過修法去把它彌補起來這是再簡單不過的道理"},{"start":31367.312,"end":31374.518,"text":"坦白說這個條文應該是要跟大法官的人事案是切割來看的脫鉤來看的"},{"start":31376.857,"end":31384.1,"text":"那麼確實我們未來極有可能會發生當這個要迴避的法官人數過多或者是說是這個因為可能有提前辭任或是出缺種種的狀況那導致可能憲法法庭的法官審議人大法官審議人數不足的時候我們要怎麼樣能夠讓憲法裁判"},{"start":31402.049,"end":31425.863,"text":"更具有民主正當性能夠讓他所做成的憲法法院的判決能夠說服人民能夠讓人民心服口服能夠贏得更多人的這個尊敬和建立公信力這個是我提這個法案的最重要的初衷我必須講今天民進黨委員一直在講這是什麼會癱瘓憲法法庭"},{"start":31428.735,"end":31447.593,"text":"我告訴大家不會的相反的他基本上是在維護人民的釋憲申請權他是要讓整個的這個未來憲法裁判更為嚴謹大法官自己都說了對不對對於重要的案子"},{"start":31448.717,"end":31464.534,"text":"那麼法官應該要採取最嚴格、最嚴密、最符合正當法律程序的方式去做。那麼為什麼自己憲法法庭就不需要去遵守這樣的一個至高的原則呢?所以"},{"start":31468.091,"end":31480.582,"text":"這個條文基本上在過去學界已經有很多的教授們都提出論文認為從大法官審理案件法後來修法降低誰通過的門檻"},{"start":31482.432,"end":31482.852,"text":"〈憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":31505.489,"end":31505.509,"text":"總委員．"},{"start":31526.187,"end":31544.284,"text":"主席謝謝那在我準備的同時我也有用powerpoint讓大家看得更清楚大家知道我在講哪一個部分主席可以嗎主席可以喔好那麼剛剛我們翁委員提案委員講到一個他很擔心大法官會越來越少有啦過去曾經有人為了讓"},{"start":31545.661,"end":31563.117,"text":"憲法釋憲案不能做出決定當然是電影的虛構情節叫做煎糊檔案他講的是為了避免美國的大法官會議做成不利某特定利益團體的他們就去暗殺大法官要讓大法官越來越少在小說家的想像就是暗殺"},{"start":31564.434,"end":31583.481,"text":"那表示什麼?為什麼利益團體在這個電影故事情節當中要去暗殺大法官?因為他知道大法官是人民受憲法保障基本權利的守護神。那我再舉幾個比較淺顯的例子讓人家了解了解。我們在使用電腦的時候呢,我們網路上我們都設定防火牆。"},{"start":31584.795,"end":31609.786,"text":"如果你把防火牆的等級設到最高你大概很難使用聯網你連傳輸、下載、上傳資訊都會變得非常的困難但是如果你防火牆設得很低有可能你就容易中病毒容易被害所以其實所謂的門檻所以審查的強度它其實就看決定你的態度是什麼"},{"start":31610.609,"end":31629.849,"text":"我再舉例來講,如果你覺得人民有受到人民保姆、警察、治安保護的這樣的權利,所以人民如果遇到不法侵害,他可以去派出所報案。假如說今天我們要求派出所在受理報案的程序上非常的嚴格,不只要雙證,還要有做保。"},{"start":31633.012,"end":31646.544,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":31652.97,"end":31672.01,"text":"同樣的道理我們有人民有公民權公民權選擇罷免創制覆決如果你把罷免權的行使設計的門檻很高或者你把公民要提出公民投票的門檻設很高多高叫做高沒有一定的定論"},{"start":31673.103,"end":31692.07,"text":"有時候當這個國家社會覺得公民投票太腐爛了他就會把門檻加高如果覺得公民投票老是沒有辦法成案他就把門檻降低這跟黃火牆的道理是一樣那到底目前我們來看一看在場的代表國內主要政黨的代表社會的意見領袖轉身圍在我們的議場上為人民喉舌的這些立法委員"},{"start":31702.063,"end":31719.062,"text":"國民黨的立場,你們認不認為目前要讓人民可以多行使罷免權,還是不宜行使罷免權?那就看你們對於選罷法,是將會人規定,人民心中自然知道,你對於人民的四項公民的行使,你們的態度是傾向加嚴,限制還是放寬,讓他便於行使。我再強調一次,"},{"start":31724.207,"end":31738.326,"text":"放寬或加嚴沒有絕對的價值好壞全看在實務的運作上你側重誰的權利所以說到這裡我們大法官如果讓他受理民眾的申請要形成審判的懲彙"},{"start":31741.01,"end":31741.19,"text":"今天呢﹖"},{"start":31764.298,"end":31773.172,"text":"翁曉玲委員提案某個程度上是取巧啦其實我們憲法訴訟法講到了現有總額出現了10次那如果你認為這10次的樣子都一樣"},{"start":31779.813,"end":31799.401,"text":"當然你可以放在第四條加上第二項只要談到了大法官憲有總額就通通用憲法的15人作為他的總額這樣最快閉旗公與議主席也比較好審查今天只要主持一條過了十個條文通通改為什麼從憲有總額改為15人的緣額"},{"start":31803.994,"end":31819.192,"text":"這最快啊但是請問一下這十條對於大法官所謂的現有總額的規定的作用剛剛專委員做了一個非常精彩的演示他告訴你一個憲法法庭從受理要不要受理到有沒有參與會議"},{"start":31822.077,"end":31833.81,"text":"可不可以作出最後緊急處分?他做了很多很多。這裡面每一個條文都涉及到要不要把現有總額用一個剛性的法定總額去取代。"},{"start":31834.775,"end":31861.266,"text":"但是我們的提案人或者說背後提供意見的人是不是過去有沒有擔任過大法官我也不清楚是不是有時任審判的經驗我也不清楚但是他就認為用最便捷的方式去修法我在這裡可以預告現在時間是5點21分待會主席的耐心會在5點半之前用完到時候又有人要提出停止討論所以我希望主席您看的時間我也看的時間"},{"start":31862.826,"end":31876.96,"text":"我希望說我的預言不要成真啊但是讓我把它講完你看你看我才講到一半他又拿著一張紙又站起來了我們媒體鏡子拍一下我現在就要講了嘛我把這個條文秀出來為什麼我要秀出這個條文"},{"start":31878.507,"end":31892.966,"text":"一個立法院在執行他的修法沒有做憲法訴訟法是立法院可以立法規範的但是今天你看看這個第四條他在講什麼大法官憲法法庭審理規則由大法官來決定欸"},{"start":31895.339,"end":31919.692,"text":"是不是?請提案委員看一下你去動的這個條文他本來第四條他的本意思寫什麼?請看一下好不好?第四條內容寫什麼?第四條內容就很清楚告訴你大法官他們怎麼去審理案件怎麼去進行憲法訴訟他就寫啊憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之前項規則由全體大法官一決之"},{"start":31921.226,"end":31945.584,"text":"第四條就明明白白擺明了大法官行使憲法賦予他憲法機關的權責就是由這個第四條明白的立法院同意立法交給他處理結果你把這個第四條加個第二項就說憲而總而要依憲法的十五人來規定而且不分青紅皂白十五條就十個條文就一次改掉但是你有沒有注意到"},{"start":31948.602,"end":31976.261,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十一條第十二條十一條在講迴避的時候有沒有講到額數問題有有講到額數問題十一條的第二項寫因前二條以外之其他事由大法官任由自行迴避之必要者得經其他大法官半數有沒有出現額數有有出現額數那請問其他大法官幾名啊"},{"start":31977.83,"end":32003.789,"text":"是憲法規定的15名嗎?其他意思是什麼?因迴避者或主張自行迴避的人以外的那一群人意思說在這個條文裡面他是個其他大法官得經其他大法官過半數同意迴避之好請問一下其他大法官如果不有其他萬人有幾名那過半數怎麼求出?"},{"start":32005.234,"end":32005.714,"text":"憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":32032.438,"end":32036.982,"text":"另外還有一個地方出現了問題什麼時候還出現過憲有名額憲有總額 憲有總額出現幾次憲有總額還出現在憲法訴訟法第39條請出示39條憲法訴訟法往前往前再往前憲法訴訟法第39條再往前"},{"start":32052.403,"end":32063.565,"text":"憲法訴訟法第49條立法委員憲有總額四分之一以上就要其行使職權要請求憲法法庭受理釋憲這裏是憲有總額啊同樣是憲有總額只要前面是大法官的憲有總額那出現了十次提案委員翁委員認為通通改成什麼法定總額法定總額是剛性的憲有總額是浮動的"},{"start":32081.55,"end":32109.307,"text":"那立法院有沒有總額的規定?有啊!立法委員總數規定在哪裡?憲法第三條啊!113名啊!第七屆開始啊!為什麼我們立法院翻遍所有的立法院執行司法的規定跟相關的會議規則?哪一條使用憲法這麼剛性的幾乎不可能修改的113人的規定?沒有啊!"},{"start":32110.816,"end":32137.578,"text":"一向以來立法院最多在憲法正修條文把立法委員前面再加個什麼?全體立法委員全體立法委員是什麼意思?是憲法講的113人嗎?不是啊!全體就是還在的所以對於全體立法委員的規定就在我們的立法院執行司法很清楚的第四條寫在裡面很奇怪很臭小又是第四條"},{"start":32138.988,"end":32161.073,"text":"立法院職權刑事法第四條就寫了我們的總額我們立法委員的全體立法委員總額怎麼定總額怎麼定在該會期有報到的扣掉辭職的扣掉頑固的去職的這些之外才叫做現有總額就是全體立法委員的意思"},{"start":32162.372,"end":32172.237,"text":"立法院自己行使職權都依著這樣的一個彈性的變動的狀況去設算他做成決議進行討論做成任何各種動議的額數規定的母數結果立法委員自己在憲法訴訟法"},{"start":32182.076,"end":32192.832,"text":"第四條你要增加這個改為什麼法定總額但是憲法訴訟法第49條講到你立法院的憲法總額為什麼提案人不把改成法定原額法定總額"},{"start":32194.738,"end":32222.127,"text":"你既然認為說要嚴格要保障要能夠讓憲法訴訟法更能夠嚴謹的來行使儘管你口頭說這是保障人民的權利那你立法院呢立法院提出釋憲申請不也是是要保障立法委員的權利嗎不是啊也是保障立法委員他在立法過程當中他為了要立法來保障人民的權益但是如果如果跟憲法"},{"start":32223.055,"end":32249.381,"text":"有衝突或者認為有衝突少數委員認為有衝突少數委員．多數委員通過的法條不能夠保障人民的權利義務所以要提出事先申請四分之一現有總額就可以那請問提案委員你這裡的現有總額又不改啦大法官的你就要改成法定總額用憲法的15名講到你立法委員的四分之一現有總額你半個字都沒有動所以講到兩個啊雙標啊"},{"start":32254.372,"end":32272.769,"text":"遇到大法官你說你沒有意見我們看一下翁委員說要脫鉤我們覺得跟大法官的人事案的審查沒有意見您在受訪的時候提案委員在受訪的時候就口口說什麼賴總統提名的法官大法官這很難我們覺得嚴格法官不能浪大於充數必要的時候一個都不給過"},{"start":32275.216,"end":32300.367,"text":"提案委員自己在接受媒體訪問的時候就已經自曝了什麼自曝動機了嘛你都覺得還沒審查你就覺得很爛看名單就覺得爛不用進行審查就覺得都不能通過有可能都不通過既然有可能都不通過我們這時候修改憲法訴訟法還說用法定的憲法法定的15席是為了保障我們憲法訴訟事件的品質"},{"start":32301.968,"end":32308.238,"text":"這個實在是言行啊前言跟後面的行為實在是滿有矛盾所以我這裡呢還是要談到這裡面兩個問題第一個雙標"},{"start":32313.069,"end":32331.938,"text":"你在憲法訴訟法的第四條完完全全當時憲法訴訟法在107年通過的時候就是明白的立法院同意你憲法法庭怎麼運作第三條明明白白的請你們立法院司法院你們自己定大法官你們自己決定審查規則你們自己定"},{"start":32333.251,"end":32354.688,"text":"很清楚結果呢你現在在這條底下下一個相反的說你現在的限用總額10個地方的規定都要用什麼用法定總額你要寫的15名然後呢第二個雙標到了你39條立法委員限用總額提出事先申請的時候這個四分之一你的限用總額你不改"},{"start":32356.394,"end":32362.423,"text":"造成的結果是什麼?造成的結果就是包括待會提案委員會講一下那麼我們的迴避規定11條其他"},{"start":32367.688,"end":32391.104,"text":"其他過半數同意,這個其他的額數要怎麼去算出來?他到底是怎麼去算?憲法總額,法定總額,沒有母數,我這過半怎麼決定?11條怎麼運作?我也不太清楚。所以結論啊,這個條文,我從頭到尾我們沒有用政治語言,我們從依法論法,從法理上來看,"},{"start":32392.245,"end":32417.848,"text":"一個依法的前面跟後面一個法條的前後的一致性跟完整性我們提案委員用一個最有效率最廉價最便利的方式一口氣閹割了十個憲法法庭運作的關鍵的額數定義無視於這十個規定在憲法法庭受理民眾申請事件的審判過程當中它有它不同的意義"},{"start":32418.891,"end":32429.125,"text":"有一棒打死而且還很荒謬的寫在第四條第二項是授權由司法院自行決定他們的憲法法庭他們的審理規則的那個條款多諷刺啊"},{"start":32432.694,"end":32452.29,"text":"立法委員的憲法總統不動然後迴避的規定怎麼適用過半數怎麼認定完全複製缺乳我希望我們今天這樣的一個討論能夠就事論事主席欸 超過時間了啊我預言失敗那我們就聽聽看我們提案委員對這些我們來互相的來交流意見以上"},{"start":32455.146,"end":32456.506,"text":"主席我可以講幾句話嗎可以齁"},{"start":32485.796,"end":32491.537,"text":"今天涉及到整個憲法訴訟法司法院也列席整部法律涉及到司法院以後憲法法庭他在審理案件的時候"},{"start":32512.967,"end":32514.529,"text":"司法院都不會是路人甲啦"},{"start":32527.321,"end":32540.992,"text":"那是不是照我們的往例啊那個昭緯聽聽看司法院到底他們對這樣的一個提案的說法他們的看法是什麼我再來表達我的意見好嗎我這樣給你建議我當然要發脾氣啊我舉手你沒讓我講話我當然發脾氣啊"},{"start":32552.842,"end":32574.809,"text":"我這邊跟莊委員前輩報告一下我們的立法院議事規則第33條第二項出席委員亦得提出停止討論之動議。那經15人以上聯署或副議不經討論,由主席進行表決。那因為他這個規定在這裡是準要的嘛。你知道那條規定的危言大義是什麼嗎?"},{"start":32577.172,"end":32589.101,"text":"麻煩你告訴我我現在就告訴你那是雙方論戰僵持不下必須透過民主正當程序因為我條文沒有看到這個規範輸的人就輸啊但問題是我還沒講話啊也許你的同事等一下被我說服了"},{"start":32598.099,"end":32617.031,"text":"中委員,那個從歷次,因為我自己來這邊之後,我也是回去看以前的意識錄,其實提出停滯討論這是常見的事情。我跟你講,不要讓我們立法院越走越沒有水準欸,吳宗憲,你不是那個唱歌的吳宗憲欸。"},{"start":32622.174,"end":32649.15,"text":"中委員那你可不可以告訴我議事規則第三三條有哪個文字的記載有中委員剛剛的那個偉大的意見我就跟你講啊整條我們任何的法律的一個立法一定有它的立法它的意旨要解決什麼那這一條要解決什麼就很簡單啊這一條要解決的不是說來看一看誰人比較多我當召委了好停止討論已經講一個了"},{"start":32650.951,"end":32677.784,"text":"一條法律涉及到這麼的一個重大那你怎麼會連司法 吳宗憲請尊重主席你覺得討論不清楚 他們覺得討論清楚了我還沒講話為什麼要清楚了不是不是 不不不 你這個又更離譜了我都還沒講話 你說這一條已經討論清楚了不是 我跟你講 你聽我說嘛 你就是都不聽我講話所以才 啊你亂講我怎麼聽你的"},{"start":32679.721,"end":32702.841,"text":"我跟你說齁我在這邊再說一次麻煩你聽我講一下啊為什麼你不聽我講我講的這麼有道理第四規則第33條已經我就跟你說你御解這個條文嘛那你跟我說一四規則你不是叫我講給你聽我再講給你聽你又不聽是你叫我講給你聽欸總委員我們是在開會不是吵架啊no no no no 莊委莊委剛剛你請我講"},{"start":32705.585,"end":32712.732,"text":"我不是跟你建議嗎?錯在我就跟你講你誤解了整個法律的規定阿我就跟你說司法院他不是路人甲整部法令的一個制定你讓司法院講一句話都沒有這對嗎?"},{"start":32729.466,"end":32755.92,"text":"這叫主持會議嗎那這樣子齁如果說中委員你還是堅持這樣那我就依據我所了解的議事規則條文文字非常清楚我又來到一個跟我不一樣議事規則我也會啊我怎麼會不懂呢來來來我要講我要講我要講我要詢問你好好現在已經停止討論了齁那我們現在呃就是請問那我請問主席我們現在程序進行到什麼地步"},{"start":32762.169,"end":32770.554,"text":"不是不是不是各位在場偉大的政治家容許我講完表決輸了我也敢玩"},{"start":32771.533,"end":32789.919,"text":"我也感恩你知道嗎今天喔不是不是我想委員不是這樣因為你這個提案你會過你會歷史留名你如果認為是對的我也給你拍手啊你要感到很開心啊可是一個法案要讓它通過以前我們今天涉及到整個司法院我們為什麼不讓司法院表達一點意見不是這樣子嗎我告訴你這樣我就不說話了你就現在開始一直在亂亂"},{"start":32798.308,"end":32802.993,"text":"司法院這次是停職討論並保留這提案人是這樣寫停職討論並保留我再跟公務員請言的等一下要說沒有聽到"},{"start":32820.905,"end":32841.477,"text":"那有意義的話那我們就進行表決吳宗憲你這樣不對啦你這樣不對啦主條討論你不讓人家討論你這個叫做當主席啊你後悔都不後悔都要後悔這個肉你剛才跟我說大體討論你說大家說一輪就算了你主條主條大家坐在這個地方在開會你連讓人家講一次的話的機會都沒有這樣對嗎你說你不要公聽就算了那為什麼主條我不能表達我的意見"},{"start":32849.574,"end":32860.822,"text":"你不是說大家互相來折衝嗎大家講完意見那講完意見你反對我了你至少讓我講完你表決說我輸了我感恩啊社會上可以公平啊"},{"start":32864.724,"end":32879.035,"text":"那我甚至提出說跟你昭緯提醒我說這整個憲法訴訟法司法院他不是路人講聽聽看他的看法然後不同的政黨之間也許會做出不同的修正也不一定啊昭緯這樣有什麼不對?這樣不對在哪裡?"},{"start":32889.52,"end":32899.787,"text":"我說現在在竹條本來他涉及相關機關就可以表達他的看法啊早上那個叫做那個叫做尋答捏是不是這樣說不是嘛噢不要以為這個叫做一個條文啊我跟大家報告啊我們的司法院啊曾經啊司法院在曾經啊民國46年啊叫做白馬"},{"start":32918.223,"end":32933.718,"text":"他作出了4至76號解釋他把他解釋成國民大會跟監察院還有立法院把那兩個機關同步認為是民主國家的國會結果立法院就報復所以當年就要四分之三出席四分之三同意"},{"start":32934.939,"end":32950.118,"text":"當年就是這樣子啊那後來大家反省了嘛都變成是可決都是二分之一嘛就這樣子嘛那你現在把它提升到三分之二大家就講道理聽聽看司法院他不是路人甲會不會怎麼樣這樣有什麼不對"},{"start":32952.04,"end":32952.34,"text":"請點在場的出席委員"},{"start":32974.933,"end":32982.517,"text":"我都還沒有開始討論你就要表決沒有討論只會表決沒有討論只會表決你們再一次示範了什麼叫做國會最大認為以達可不表決的程度的時候討論要"},{"start":32996.204,"end":33021.5,"text":"三十三條你要看一下不是嘛主席三十三條看一下你們議事人員不要這麼亂出手主義你們議事人員你們亂解釋那贊成則五位反對者四位反對反對反對等一下主席你的四位怎麼來的主席你的四位怎麼來的反對者這邊在這邊坐著如果人家為什麼都四位"},{"start":33025.623,"end":33032.448,"text":"公然作票啊!公然作票啊!公然作票啊!你把誰當空氣啊?我們這裡五個哪裡變四位啊?剛剛哪四票?剛剛哪四票?你剛剛四票是哪四票?"},{"start":33043.815,"end":33064.632,"text":"打4票等一下你剛剛拿4票等一下你剛剛拿4票等一下嘛我要講話我覺得奇怪你們為什麼從來不讓我講因為你今天話太多啦你今天話太多啦你當主席就讓整個議事讓他上場就好為什麼要發表你的說法不讓你講話如果各位有興趣回去看影片是誰在那邊一直在那邊講話干擾整個議事的"},{"start":33066.533,"end":33068.735,"text":"但是我們都還沒有講逐條討論你就要停止討論"},{"start":33095.066,"end":33107.152,"text":"我還沒有發表條文的意見又要沒有討論不是民主又要來一次上會期的教訓還不夠嗎"},{"start":33110.63,"end":33119.017,"text":"主席!江湖要走基本法律素養要有啦!主席33條看了沒?議事規則33條主席可以解釋一下嗎?"},{"start":33136.591,"end":33159.039,"text":"第四條聽之討論並保留我還沒有討論我們先審查第九十五條那第九十五條有翁曉玲等16人提案那請問各位在場的委員對於第九十五條有意見主席會議詢問有意見主席需要詢問一下你說到我們會議討論議程完整為止對不對"},{"start":33164.369,"end":33164.609,"text":"主席主席認為"},{"start":33192.984,"end":33194.252,"text":"以答可交付表決"},{"start":33197.753,"end":33224.534,"text":"該講的都講了可交付表決了那就停止討論你可以自行宣告33條當然也可以動議32條準用我們根據立法院各委員會組織法第21條可以準用議事規則用院會的議事規則那你今天也很仁慈你說不要用第二項不要用書面的用第一項用預備會議的準用這個你事後解釋清楚我們都覺得主席這樣子是讓會議可以順利進行"},{"start":33225.835,"end":33226.175,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":33245.171,"end":33273.07,"text":"加上司法院不是路人甲剛剛我們中委員說啦司法院你也不能把它當空氣啊那遇到施行法的時候原來的設計它是交由司法院定之這個我再show PowerPoint給你看今天本席是做充足的準備那您是不是讓我們大家都講過主席會議詢問接下來的主條您所謂的充分討論到達可交付表決的程度認為怎麼樣叫充分"},{"start":33276.386,"end":33283.093,"text":"三三條第二項初期委員可以提出在歷次的會議非常常見"},{"start":33296.687,"end":33297.448,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":33330.81,"end":33331.291,"text":"你早上曾經講錯嘛對不對"},{"start":33338.368,"end":33360.035,"text":"第三條第二項初期委員得亦得提出停止討論所以你是認為剛剛我們是用33條的第二項停止討論你早上說的是32條的第一項然後在我們準用我們的立法院各委員會組織法裡面的第21條可以準用院會的規定那現在呢你現在跑出來是33條的第二項"},{"start":33360.575,"end":33368.469,"text":"是只要有委員認為．出席委員認為．可以停止討論．就可以了．是不是這樣子．因為早上你講的跟下午講的不一樣．所以特別要詢問一下．"},{"start":33370.25,"end":33370.39,"text":"主席"},{"start":33392.25,"end":33392.93,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":33412.677,"end":33413.798,"text":"我跟你講齁 你都 你的習慣"},{"start":33439.557,"end":33467.755,"text":"不要這樣講什麼叫我的習慣 你的習慣才差勁欸沒關係齁 我跟你說因為你一直不聽我講話嘛因為你亂講嘛好好好 隨便你齁來 我們就95條各位在場的委員有意見要發表的請舉手來那因為剛剛吳思耀委員先 然後再來翁曉玲委員然後沈委員 然後那個鍾委員還有後面還有啊剛剛沒有講到的話 那鍾委員可以先啊鍾委員 你可以我不要人手"},{"start":33469.75,"end":33470.15,"text":"我沒有限制時間"},{"start":33485.936,"end":33513.139,"text":"主席非常遺憾剛剛在進入第四條的時候我已經多次舉手我爭取這是我的權利我要在逐條發言好好討論可是就被你們強行表決沒收閹割了我的逐條發言上個會期國會擴權法案同樣的負面的案例再一次活生生血淋淋再次發生"},{"start":33514.355,"end":33521.524,"text":"所以國民黨永遠學不會教訓永遠是要閹割立法院的討論的程序正義喔"},{"start":33523.508,"end":33551.53,"text":"請翁曉玲委員聆聽一下因為你是提案委員第四條的部分您在修正是增列了第三項第四條的第一項是說憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之所以憲法法庭審理的規則有了這個母法的授權訂定了一個審理規則總共呢有多少條文您知道嗎"},{"start":33554.605,"end":33578.104,"text":"翁曉玲委員您知道憲法法庭的審理規則有幾個條文您知道嗎?我只說網上有幾個條文您知道嗎?第四條只有三項只有三項您要增略第三項第一項就提到憲法法庭審理的規則由司法院定之你現在可以google"},{"start":33579.691,"end":33607.516,"text":"給你時間Google憲法法庭的審理規則有74個條文總共分9張第4條的第1項在講憲法法庭的審理規則由司法院定之這就告訴了我們憲法法庭的進行如果你沒有辦法回答我憲法法庭的審理規則有幾條你就閉嘴"},{"start":33609.758,"end":33619.601,"text":"你自己提案第四條有三個兩個條文你居然連第一個條文的憲法法庭審理規則有幾條你不知道"},{"start":33621.206,"end":33645.311,"text":"第四條的第一項憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之全文有七十四個條文憲法法庭從組成他各項的從法律解釋從他的迴避從包括政黨解散或者是要彈劾總統副總統他所有的受理的程序開會的程序都是在憲法法庭審理規則來定之的"},{"start":33647.717,"end":33666.944,"text":"全文有74條這是您所提案的憲法訴訟法第四條的第一項而你不知道第二項叫做前項規則由全體大法官議決之換言之中文應該看得懂吧"},{"start":33668.601,"end":33685.462,"text":"閱讀能力應當沒有問題吧?憲法法庭的審理規則依憲法訴訟法第一項跟第二項都告訴我們有權利針對憲法法庭審理規則去定的是大法官自己而不是立法院"},{"start":33686.96,"end":33703.557,"text":"今天翁曉玲委員取巧的在憲法訴訟法第四條針裂了第三項非常遺憾大家看到了他針裂第四條的第三項他居然連第一項跟第二項在講什麼他不知道然後他提案要針裂第三項笑死人笑死人"},{"start":33706.48,"end":33722.768,"text":"笑死人讀法律的劉德的你在修憲法訴訟法的第四條只有兩項現有條文你連前兩項在講什麼你不知道好你提了第三項你居然提了第三項是來"},{"start":33723.948,"end":33750.764,"text":"否定是來前後矛盾推翻第一項跟第二項所說的憲法法庭的審理規則是司法院定之而司法院定之的全體大法官可以決定他的審理規則是什麼所以你居然可以現在用立法權升到憲法法庭的審理規則裡面你要去限制他的開會人數現有緣額就是法定緣額"},{"start":33752.458,"end":33780.352,"text":"你有這種權利嗎?我想問一下就教於我們司法院的副秘書長喔請問誰有權利去定司法院的審理規則審理規則依照第四條第二項是由大法官去定的也就是司法院定之然後大法官決定嘛所以立法委員可以來替大法官決定他的審理規則是什麼嗎?"},{"start":33782.472,"end":33784.975,"text":"所以非常清楚非常清楚來我請問副秘書長大法官誓字585號是什麼"},{"start":33798.436,"end":33804.962,"text":"國會縱使有調查權,它有它職權權限的前提,不能侵害行政特權,不能侵害司法訴訟案件中進行的案件。這也就是釋字585號告訴我們的"},{"start":33823.271,"end":33836.994,"text":"各個憲政機關不得去侵犯另外的憲政機關的權利核心領域我請問副秘書長就司法院大法官會議憲法法庭的權利核心領域是什麼"},{"start":33839.436,"end":33855.493,"text":"跟委員報告當然憲法法庭就是要去去履行這個這個憲法裁判的這個這個義務所以我們一再跟委員們報告說希望整個修法能夠讓憲法法庭能夠順利的去履行它憲法上面的事實"},{"start":33856.754,"end":33870.609,"text":"換言之立法委員用立法修法的方式來剝奪司法院憲政機關的權力核心領域造成司法院憲法法庭的行使職權的實質妨害請問這有沒有涉及違憲"},{"start":33875.885,"end":33876.686,"text":"所以非常清楚,翁委員所提案的憲法訴訟法的第四條"},{"start":33897.055,"end":33920.56,"text":"現行的條文是兩項前兩項都很清楚的告訴我們憲法法庭的審理規則是司法院自己定的而由司法院的全體大法官來議決他們怎麼樣在行使憲法法庭的釋憲案不管是受理人民的申請釋憲或是政府機關的申請釋憲所依循的所有原則是大法官決定的"},{"start":33921.36,"end":33945.922,"text":"立法權沒有權利把手伸到司法權裡面去而且去針對他們開會審理的規則來說三道四來要求原額這是國會最大這是國會優位這是立法院用立法院憲政機關的權限"},{"start":33948.146,"end":33972.999,"text":"去剝奪了其他憲政機關去履行他的憲法忠誠義務這些事情都在我們上個會期去上了憲法法庭大法官告訴我們的全社會都聽懂了全社會都學會了只有國民黨到現在還執迷不悟我在看第四條翁曉玲委員提案"},{"start":33974.315,"end":33978.938,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十五條條文規定大法官十五人其設立十五人的目的就在確保憲法法庭審理重大案件進行多數決的時候能夠來涵蓋多元意見和觀點"},{"start":33997.409,"end":34021.395,"text":"避免單一或少數觀點來主導判決而無法充分考量各種專業角度及見解導致專業意見不足影響裁判的質量和深度造成公眾對大法官公信力的下降破壞司法公信力我全部念完我認為你在修的你在講的"},{"start":34022.395,"end":34042.103,"text":"其實是在告訴我們立法院要趕快行使大法官的同意權讓15名大法官都不會有缺額都能夠完全在審理重大案件的時候進行多數決的時候都能夠因為大法官補齊了15人他的多元意見跟觀點都可以被實踐避免預防掉"},{"start":34045.985,"end":34065.251,"text":"去杜絕掉單一少數觀點來主導判決您自己的提案的說明的第一點你在說的其實不是合理化正當化你修正憲法訴訟法的理由你自己在說的是立法院要來進行大法官人事同意權的審理你在說的應當是這樣"},{"start":34068.872,"end":34092.289,"text":"唯有趕快行使人事同意權讓補足7名到10月底已經到任的大法官唯有如此大法官的15人才會都到任都能夠履行他的法定義務翁曉玲委員在憲訴法第四條的提案說明的第二點您是這樣說的"},{"start":34094.216,"end":34111.432,"text":"現行憲法訴訟法沒有明定大法官現有總額的定義僅規定迴避的大法官不計入總額的人數所以會出現三四位大法官即形成多數意見而做成判決的極端情形發生請秀一下我的極端情形發生的PPT好嗎"},{"start":34114.653,"end":34140.402,"text":"翁曉玲委員請您看一看你在提案說明的第二點你說的極端案例會存在只有三四位大法官就可以形成多數意見來做成判決我現在秀出來了翁委員請看著我的PPT翁委員請看著我的PPT好嗎請看著吳斯耀好嗎不要躲避"},{"start":34141.96,"end":34158.15,"text":"您說的極端案例哪裡發生過?憲訴法2019制定到現在48個我再發言好嗎?48個案件裡頭都是大於十位大法官的審議"},{"start":34160.152,"end":34186.515,"text":"當中37案是15名大法官全員參與請翁曉玲委員講清楚哪裡發生過只有三四位大法官就可以決定憲法解釋的案例案例在哪裡案例會有下一頁在未來還沒發生的狀況請問委員您看看我的PPT您看一下好嗎我選了一張您美麗的照片"},{"start":34187.768,"end":34213.626,"text":"委員翁不要逃避請看著我的PPT好嗎你又不敢看那我就說給你聽你掩耳盜鈴不敢直視那我就報告給你聽如果這次你們拒不行使大法官的人事同意權造成七位大法官沒有辦法通過僅剩八位大法官的憲法法庭才有可能發生"},{"start":34214.767,"end":34234.292,"text":"才有可能發生參與評議跟同意的門檻往下降但是至少也會有六位委員參與評議五位同意也不會發生三位四位就來決定憲法解釋的狀況不要只會造謠只會亂說只會胡扯"},{"start":34243.905,"end":34267.377,"text":"我就拿你自己憲法訴訟法第四條修正條文你增加第三項但是你居然不知道第一項第二項在講什麼然後你的兩點修法的意見其實都正說明了你要修的不是憲訴法國民黨要做的是即刻來進行大法官人事同意權的行使"},{"start":34268.637,"end":34283.382,"text":"趕快想方設法你可以針對現在的七位不滿意沒有關係審查之後你可以同意你可以不同意但是我們要努力的讓十月底即將到任的大法官能補幾個就補幾個"},{"start":34287.352,"end":34299.603,"text":"你們認為賴于充數你認為提名的名單不夠亮眼你認為不適任這是你現在說的請站上審查的質詢台直求對決比看看誰有法律專業這是憲訴法今天修的條文只有兩條是非常清楚修的兩條但是他會翻天覆地的去毀滅憲法法庭的運作"},{"start":34316.136,"end":34342.279,"text":"憲法法庭的審理規則是司法院的大法官自己可以決定的不是立法院幫忙定的立法權又把手伸到司法權裡頭去剝奪其他憲政機關的權力核心領域上個會期的教訓你們受的還不夠學的還不多嗎"},{"start":34345.438,"end":34370.174,"text":"我回到前面我的PPT前面再前面再前好再一頁請國民黨的委員好好看一看憲法訴訟制度不應當淪為政治攻防下的犧牲品你們現在搞不清楚條文然後就胡亂的增建增修第三項就是把憲訴法來作為政治攻防的犧牲品"},{"start":34371.425,"end":34371.565,"text":"跟委員報告齁那"},{"start":34402.182,"end":34422.905,"text":"因為憲法訴訟法第十二條他依法定法迴避了大法官不記錄現有的這個總額然後這一部分然後跟第四條又把那個現有總額算成法定原額就會變成一個情形說今天大法官他因為辭職"},{"start":34424.76,"end":34441.104,"text":"因為之前也曾經有發說今天假設他迴避 迴避完他可能辭職那迴避如果依照委員講迴避本身是不計入縣的人他辭職反而又不扣這個辭職或者是在任期中過世嚴格上來講比迴避還更嚴重結果迴避不扣"},{"start":34444.745,"end":34444.925,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":34467.427,"end":34474.899,"text":"那麼如果說依照四條的修正的話會造成現在已經受理的案件將來沒有辦法沒有辦法沒有辦法及時進入去審理對這人民的權利有明顯的危害然後照"},{"start":34482.711,"end":34490.994,"text":"如果照95條又立即實施連一個過渡期間都沒有那麼相關的這些條文第四條先涉及到的相關的條文跟準備我們都沒有沒有些時間然後對這一些已經申請甚至被公告受理的案件的的的案件的申請人他們的這個權益是不是能夠得到及時保證保障因為第十九十五條這個規定我們覺得更有值得斟酌的空間所以"},{"start":34509.239,"end":34528.849,"text":"我們是建議說真的能夠各位委員能夠三思請各位委員能夠三思這是司法院的呼籲他基於憲法法庭整個運作的法理面到實務面都清楚的告訴我們翁曉玲委員修的第四條跟現在的條文第12條是嚴重的漢格的司法院都說的這麼清楚了翁委員您視而不見嗎"},{"start":34537.386,"end":34556.395,"text":"你繼續不予理會嗎?您的名言就是我就是比你大對不起沒有立法權沒有就大於司法權大法官的審理規則就是立法院自己可以定的"},{"start":34559.195,"end":34577.762,"text":"只有兩個條文但他對於臺灣的憲政體制會產生翻天覆地的毀滅好我就較於第九十五條當初九十五條現行的條文是給予司法院一個合宜的施行日期"},{"start":34580.8,"end":34584.549,"text":"因為剛剛第四條你完全沒有辦法回答我的問題剛剛第四條吳角緯不讓我發言"},{"start":34590.39,"end":34594.353,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．完整會議委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．完整會議"},{"start":34620.152,"end":34620.913,"text":"你剛剛不是問翁委員嗎?"},{"start":34649.807,"end":34678.109,"text":"我請他回答的時候他沒有辦法回答不敢回答然後呢我進入其他的部分他就出來亂好我請舉主席要公正主持第九十五條我請教副秘書長喔原來的條文現行條文是本法自公布後三年後施行然後施行日期是司法院以命令定之當初之所以這樣定的理由是什麼"},{"start":34679.462,"end":34700.902,"text":"因為憲法訴訟法當時制定以後有一些相關的配套的一些的包含執法包含規範那麼都需要去做準備所以說他需要一些時間那到底所以需要用4%覺得成熟的時候用命令去訂所以當時訂定的那我們也是說這一次95條這個修正我們覺得因為"},{"start":34704.085,"end":34707.167,"text":"因為那個95條修正憲法第四條本身我們也是建議說能夠再做詳細的斟酌那麼95條要立刻再讓它立即實施我們覺得說真的對司法院來講將來是非常的艱困"},{"start":34722.798,"end":34736.645,"text":"所以第四條跟第九十五條都是連帶有關聯性的因為第四條很清楚的講當初憲訴法修的第四條你們就要有時間去由司法院的大法官來議定什麼呢憲法法庭的審理規則嘛"},{"start":34737.845,"end":34758.171,"text":"所以我剛說的你們花了一些時間去把這個審理規則完整的配套做出來有9個章節有74個條文他需要時間不是立委這麼粗糙修了幾個條文之後然後馬上倉促的就本法制施行日來施行"},{"start":34759.051,"end":34780.105,"text":"不顧整個配套不管整個司法院能不能夠針對你們這樣無裡頭破壞憲政秩序的修法還要強逼人家馬上上路我希望透過這段質詢能夠藉由司法院副秘書長的說明非常清楚的告訴我們只有兩個條文的憲訴法它對於整個釋憲"},{"start":34785.785,"end":34810.79,"text":"的程序都會產生非常嚴重嚴重的挑戰這就是憲政危機的到來不要以為它只是兩個條文不要以為只是新增了幾個字它的殺傷力如此之大我希望司法院繼續努力的來訴求跟說明當您的管理讓人們親吻打呼你歡迎"},{"start":34813.709,"end":34825.899,"text":"最大的理解他自以為自己比誰都大的立法委員隨便寫了幾個條文幾個字就管到你家的大法官審理規則"},{"start":34827.568,"end":34828.428,"text":"我第一輪先發言到這裡我稍後還有第二輪"},{"start":34854.974,"end":34855.434,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":34879.609,"end":34890.759,"text":"議事規則3.3條第二項已經不確規定你不要總和我討論我的新書新書的結果是給我剝奪你本來是叫我 說不通 翁曉玲委員他提案委員給他先說是這樣 不然你本來就叫我說這樣你現在 你是跟我有關係嗎不然你什麼都不跟我說 你跟我說"},{"start":34907.176,"end":34910.177,"text":"我沒有講我的,我才講幾個字啊,我說為什麼不讓我講啊?你讓我回答好不好?"},{"start":34930.751,"end":34931.591,"text":"可不可以讓我把話說完"},{"start":34952.643,"end":34955.526,"text":"主席我坐這邊可不可以發言我都還沒講我哪有煩我還沒講啊我還沒講欸"},{"start":34977.26,"end":34989.913,"text":"中委員你問我問題我是不是要解釋要回答對不對但是我我面對你我每次你問我問題我每次講幾個字你又打斷我不是我打斷因為你都亂回答阿"},{"start":34990.573,"end":35014.197,"text":"沒關係,那你至少聽我把亂回答講完嘛趕快亂答我現在先回答一下依據議事規則第33條第二項那各位有興趣可以去翻一下條文那出席委員是可以提出停職討論的動議那今天有出席委員已經提出來了他們是在那個吳世耀委員說話的時候就已經拿給我了"},{"start":35014.597,"end":35041.554,"text":"所以今天我也是尊重吳思耀委員我在他講完之後我才開始處理這個動議嘛那我就是依據議事規則三條第二項我跟你講你們講的沒有錯啊你說為什麼不讓你一個個講完但是今天議事規則規定在這裡我依據議事規則主持會議我真的也不知道該怎麼辦主席你剛剛竟然可以等到吳思耀講完你也等到我講完嘛我現在換到這邊坐我應該可以講了吧"},{"start":35042.535,"end":35064.332,"text":"你說雙方 雙方打雙方 主席啊 你們不要這樣 我再說一次 吳士耀委員開始講之後 他們提了這個動議出來 那我現在等吳士耀委員講完之後 我現在在處理這個委員提案的動議 那我依據的規定是議事規則33條第2項 主席 你那個議事規則33條你已經講過很多次 我來反駁你一下 我來再還原一下"},{"start":35070.077,"end":35070.557,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":35090.876,"end":35096.599,"text":"你剛剛吳世耀委員在講的時候你的動議你沒有處理阿表示你是有權利決定這個動議何時處理的阿現在講了幾人次阿?兩個人次兩個人次就又被沒收了你坐錯邊了啦 坐在這邊啦沒關係好"},{"start":35112.193,"end":35120.359,"text":"各位不要干擾議事如果大家對於議事規則有意見我歡迎大家去修法好不好修法完整之前我們就依據議事規則33條第二項去處理嘛"},{"start":35136.212,"end":35144.098,"text":"主席按照議事規則會議詢問主席主席我按照議事規則我現在來做一個會議詢問好不好主席主席主席主席主條主條你問我到底要不要發言我剛有舉手"},{"start":35161.812,"end":35186.127,"text":"站成提案的請舉手主席你這個不對啦主席你這個沒有素養啊這樣怎麼可以呢主條討論我舉手你不讓我發言這是什麼意思主席反對提案的請舉手可以了可以放下了放下請放下反對提案的請舉手我們要發言的請舉手我也舉手"},{"start":35188.048,"end":35197.721,"text":"反對提案的舉手不是那個蔡委員你不行啦請問"},{"start":35208.213,"end":35228.261,"text":"為什麼害怕討論?又要沒收討論?為什麼害怕討論?為什麼害怕討論?怎麼會逐條?贊成則五位,反對則五位。贊成反對者同訴,可否同訴時取決於主席。現在主席決定是贊成,所以在場出席委員11人,贊成6人,反對5人。"},{"start":35231.563,"end":35236.627,"text":"戰爭者多數通過。第九十五條停止討論並保留。現在有收到林師妹米委員所提的復議動議。請宣讀。"},{"start":35252.812,"end":35259.819,"text":"針對立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（一）事由．併案審查一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具《憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":35273.391,"end":35277.698,"text":"委員會所作之都將提出副意並且提出副意動議提案由委員會主席提供,然後會議在議會議員審查令宣讀完畢。"},{"start":35285.061,"end":35293.589,"text":"憲法訴訟法亂修一通你們根本不敢討論不敢面對不敢面對不敢討論只會沒收討論只會沒收討論只會沒收討論只會沒收討論不要偷偷摸摸好嗎"},{"start":35309.404,"end":35330.755,"text":"在院會討論時由吳釗偉中線出席說明那條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理那麻煩把那個副議動議印給大家先麻煩印給大家"},{"start":35335.183,"end":35337.184,"text":"有臉阿有臉阿"},{"start":35362.396,"end":35363.878,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":35378.615,"end":35385.797,"text":"反對主席這樣粗暴的主持都不給討論只會表決不給討論只會表決不給討論只會表決主條都沒有主條啊完全沒有給予討論充分的時間"},{"start":35405.452,"end":35429.546,"text":"早上我就問你說有沒有機會給我排公聽會你說你不反對不敢嘛你自己不排你連我排都不讓我排作為委員會有異議不異這個效果就完蛋了請問對於不異的動物有異議反對啦好那有異議的話我們用舉手表決的方式處理那表決前我們先請那個清點在場出席委員的人數"},{"start":35430.126,"end":35453.291,"text":"只會表決,內容都不敢討論現在我們開始進行表決,那贊成者請舉手剛剛提案委員馬上被挑戰,自己提什麼案都說不清楚自己提什麼案都不清楚那反對者請舉手反對者請舉手"},{"start":35456.721,"end":35457.181,"text":"太過分了啦"},{"start":35480.154,"end":35481.195,"text":"人民的權利一副開心的樣子"}]}},{"id":"16186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16186","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ecdd974dd956c7ad690a0be61fea148186059d4d42a7fce21d50a49d5e96a2b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-21T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T17:45:00+08:00","duration":33270,"影片長度":"09:14:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 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令則其繼續審查113年11月17日 報告4項 邀請中央銀行總裁楊金隆率所屬單位主管暨財經資訊股份衛生公司董事長列席後報告並被質詢二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金隆就第7波"},{"start":2194.137,"end":2220.904,"text":"選擇性信用管制支配套措施進行專題報告並被質詢。經中央銀行總裁楊進隆提出報告後,繼而委員林德福等14人提出質詢。均經中央銀行總裁楊進隆等予以答覆。決定。一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊。請中央銀行於一週內以書面答覆。委員另要求其縣者從其鎖定。三、委員王洪威、楊強英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報,並以中央銀行以書面答覆。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2225.326,"end":2238.941,"text":"好,請問各位委員對上次議事會有異議?沒有齁?沒有異議我們就議事會確定了。來,我們,我們來,我來報告一下今天的這個議程齁,那個議事委員你先宣讀一下今天的議程。"},{"start":2239.902,"end":2255.79,"text":"討論事項 廣泛討論 一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案 一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人"},{"start":2258.93,"end":2280.055,"text":"財政收支劃分法部分條件修正草案等6案。三、本院委員吳立華等17人擬具財政收支劃分法第三條條件修正草案。四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條條件修正草案。五、本院委員黃建豪等21人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第12條條件修正草案。六、本院委員王宏威等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第30條條件修正草案。"},{"start":2282.535,"end":2307.306,"text":"七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱振軍等19人分別擬具財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第16條之一條緣修正草案案。二、八、本院委員賴銳榮等16人、委員蔡玉儀等16人分別擬具財政收支劃分法第16條之一條緣修正草案等2案。九、本院委員賴世保等29人擬具財政收支劃分法第16條之二、第37條之二及第38條之二條緣修正草案案。"},{"start":2308.331,"end":2329.092,"text":"十、本院委員賴世寶等22人擬具財政收支劃分法第38條之一條文修正草案案。十一、本院委員張家俊等27人擬具財政收支劃分法第4條、第8條及第12條條文修正草案案。十二、本院委員楊瓊英等32人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條文修正草案案。十三、本院委員"},{"start":2330.013,"end":2358.915,"text":"鄭天才等18人擬具財政收支劃分法徵定第30條之一及第30條之二條緣修正草案案二、審查財政收支劃分法二案一、本院委員羅廷文等19人擬具財政收支劃分法部分條緣修正草案案二、本院委員鄭振淺等21人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條條緣修正草案案宣佈完畢好,我們原地先介紹在場的委員和與會的政府官員"},{"start":2366.394,"end":2387.404,"text":"林德福委員蔡易瑜委員賴慧媛委員賴思瑪委員李坤城委員林楚英委員吳秉瑞委員張雅琳委員"},{"start":2389.864,"end":2403.111,"text":"郭玉琴委員、明月琴委員、陳培宜委員、范雲委員、顏寬恆委員、張志倫委員、黃珊珊委員、郭國文委員"},{"start":2415.56,"end":2431.025,"text":"介紹我們今天議會的政府官員我們莊部長因為去參加APEC會議所以他請教我們今天到場的有我們財政部的政務次長阮清華"},{"start":2434.744,"end":2462.172,"text":"法治處的姚瑩處長統計處的蔡美娜處長國庫署的陳柏成署長負稅署的陳慧琪副署長行政院主計總處陳淑芝主計長公務預算處的徐永毅處長內政部民政司的劉立芳莊委"},{"start":2464.492,"end":2473.879,"text":"內政部國土管理署國土計劃組的檢任視察朱偉廷先生國發會的經濟發展處郭永騰專委人民會的綜合規劃處洪林副處長環境部大氣環境師的謝仁碩科長"},{"start":2487.941,"end":2492.776,"text":"法務部法制司的調部辦事檢察官楊石宇檢察官"},{"start":2496.263,"end":2517.557,"text":"今天我們議程的安排是繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的財政收支劃分法修正草案等20案即審查一、委員羅廷偉等19人擬具的財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案二、委員鄭振銓等21人擬具的財政收支劃分法第8條修正草案案"},{"start":2518.717,"end":2524.382,"text":"現在我們請議事人宣讀委員羅廷偉等19人及委員鄭鄭前等20人分別擬具這條文預計宣讀時間一分鐘宣讀完畢後我們就開始進行廣泛討論"},{"start":2532.927,"end":2547.563,"text":"先讀委員提案條文委員羅廷偉等19人提案第4條刪除委員羅廷偉等19人提案第8條同國民黨黨團提案第8條委員鄭振銓等21人提案第8條第一項第二項同國民黨黨團提案第8條第一項第二項"},{"start":2549.565,"end":2565.978,"text":"第三項,修正為第一項第一款之所得稅,應以在直轄市縣市徵期之收入5%給該直轄市縣市。第四項、第五項,同國民黨黨團提案第三項、第四項,委員羅廷偉等19人提案第12條,同委員林思明等20人提案第12條。"},{"start":2567.179,"end":2583.404,"text":"委員羅廷慧等19人提案第16條之一同國民黨黨團提案第16條之一委員羅廷慧等19人提案第30條同國民黨黨團提案第30條委員羅廷慧等19人提案附表一刪除委員羅廷慧等19人提案附表二刪除宣告完畢我們現在進行廣泛討論做以下宣告"},{"start":2591.071,"end":2618.255,"text":"剛剛我們委員都有到台前來登記發言要發言的委員請到才還可以繼續來主席台登記我們10點半截止登記本會委員每位發言是8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘8加2非本會委員就列席委員我那個不是程序發言我現在是廣泛討論上面有寫程序發言嗎?"},{"start":2624.069,"end":2639.597,"text":"這張不是程序發言這張是廣泛討論你簽名的時候沒有注意看你們想做程序發言我們也可以沒問題沒問題那你們要做廣泛討論嗎好那可以那等一下齁那請坐下來等一下齁好好來那等一下可以可以請坐齁來"},{"start":2641.028,"end":2649.976,"text":"好,可以。那因為這張是廣泛討論的,我還沒有說好,你要程序發言喔。那可以程序發言每位3分鐘,要程序發言請來這邊簽名喔。好。這個上面這一張我們剛簽是廣泛討論,大家有沒有注意看。要做程序發言歡迎喔。"},{"start":2669.997,"end":2678.209,"text":"我們會讓大家暢所欲言,好好發言這是廣泛討論的程序發言是左邊那一張,廣泛討論是右邊這一張"},{"start":2705.982,"end":2706.583,"text":"歡迎大家上所議員"},{"start":2742.37,"end":2762.62,"text":"現在有幾位12位我們現在有12委員簽名要做程序發言還有沒有在場委員要做程序還沒有簽名的我們稍微再等一下還有沒有人要上來簽名"},{"start":2765.865,"end":2790.896,"text":"如果沒有話我們就這12位委員做程序發言喔每位委員程序發言時間3分鐘齁好我們先請呃程序發言結束以後我們就開始進行廣泛討論齁好現場還有沒有委員沒有簽名的要做程序發言的公共委員也要做程序發言嗎沒有看你要嗎如果要就上來簽沒有就不用好就這12位齁好我們現在先請蔡宜委員齁每位3分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2804.781,"end":2816.615,"text":"主席、各位同仁那我們今天我們財政委員會排審了財政收支劃分法那我們知道財政收支劃分主要是關於中央跟地方政府之間"},{"start":2817.352,"end":2841.244,"text":"他們關於統籌分配的一個比例的問題那也是關於當年度中央政府因為國人的稅收然後有涉及到如何去做分配那這個分配主要有垂直分配跟水平分配那垂直分配當然就是說中央跟地方的一個比例那水平分配就是不同的地方政府他要"},{"start":2841.943,"end":2862.798,"text":"根據不同的一個經濟的一個指標一個參考的一個指數然後來做地方政府應該可以拿到多少統籌分配盤當然我們知道中央政府跟地方政府之間除了統籌分配之外事實上也有所謂補助款那我們知道這幾年中央政府對於地方政府的補助款"},{"start":2863.238,"end":2875.54,"text":"事實上是每年都在增加所以地方政府也因為補助款可以大幅度的彌補它統籌分配上不足或者是其他有缺陷的一個地方是由補助款來補助的"},{"start":2876.876,"end":2900.502,"text":"這個是過去的這樣整個一套的一個制度那如果今天我們大家對於財政收支劃分法有意見然後認為過去的制度沒有達到好的話我們當然是可以來討論但是我認為有一個前提非常的重要就是我們現在最要緊的我們要趕快處理明年度的總預算"},{"start":2901.562,"end":2921.234,"text":"因為我們知道說到了今天已經10月22號已經10月22了所以已經到了這樣的一個年底然後我們只剩下一個月差不多剩兩個月又十天的這麼短的時間內我們要處理明年3兆1325億的中央政府的總預算"},{"start":2930.31,"end":2952.441,"text":"如果我們這個總預算沒有好好來審議的話我們明年有很多不管是新增的預算或者是新的一個項目是沒有辦法被執行的這個我想我們大家都心知肚明那目前總預算呢卡住的原因當然說我們今天下午一點半韓國瑜院長有在排朝野協商"},{"start":2953.001,"end":2962.324,"text":"但是我們也知道這個卡住的原因目前大概就是三個理由其中國民黨最堅持的大概就是禁法補償這一項因為國民黨認為禁法補償有經過三讀有經過法律的一個審議當然這個正義點也在於說我們對於"},{"start":2972.127,"end":2995.181,"text":"當年度2019年所通過的財政的一個紀律法我們認為以財政紀律法第7條的精神我們在法律案在編列預算的時候不能違定額的經費或者是比例的一個保障這個是財政紀律法的一個精神那因為違反這樣的精神我們認為這件事我們可以好好來討論那行政院"},{"start":2998.163,"end":3017.29,"text":"也有一定的誠意說好我們禁法補償我們從3萬先把它提升到4萬剩下的部分由基金來做一個處理所以也是盡量要達到國民黨的委員或者是我們希望給原住民禁法禁法補償要有給他的一個金額我想這個我們下午1點半也還要來進行來朝野協商我們期待的就是說我們趕快"},{"start":3023.973,"end":3026.874,"text":"就、就這樣的一個政治上的一個歧義我們找到一個平衡點啊平衡點要就拜託我們的國民黨我們不要再來擋這個總預算把它擱置在程序委員會我們希望說我們讓它復為"},{"start":3039.238,"end":3042.681,"text":"我們就來拜託你們接下來總召你會做不贏的這個召委這個陳玉珍召委跟我們的賴會員兩位召委你們一定會很忙因為你們也開始要緊鑼密鼓要開始一禮拜我們每年都會總議省每個部會他們明年編的預算到底有沒有何時編列這個預算有沒有"},{"start":3061.198,"end":3083.958,"text":"被浪費、有哪些需要刪減、有哪些需要凍結,我想這項會這麼多。所以有幾人我們現在都知道說我們最重要的項會是什麼總統職啊。我希望說我們今天這個財政收支劃分法,我們就把大家都有條文嘛。剛剛我自己也有條文,我自己對於水平分配我自己的一個主張。我就想我們就先收集好。"},{"start":3084.679,"end":3106.307,"text":"每個的意見我相信還有很多人對於財政收支劃分因為大家來自不同的選區來自不同的一個地域他們對於這個水平分配一定都有他們的看法我們就尊重我們再用多一點時間收集多一點法案我們不要急著今天就要就這個法案來做實質性的討論我幹嘛就是說這個真的就是"},{"start":3114.124,"end":3118.568,"text":"這個重點啦!重點!因為我覺得這個牌子拿出來,我覺得是氣氛的比較壞啦!但是我也是要拿起來,因為我覺得說,召委,我們很重要的齁,我們不要黨總預算,然後一邊又要搶這一個齁,"},{"start":3133.982,"end":3152.279,"text":"我們這個月的預算,我覺得這樣起來是不好,我們這個會期我們就好好來處理我們的總預算,然後我們再用多一點時間,我們可以吸納更多的法案,讓大家快點拿出來,每個人都有每個人對於地方的一個看法吧。"},{"start":3153.059,"end":3171.292,"text":"我相信那會員委員他來自台南,台南有農業也有工業也有商業所以在這麼多情況之下我相信台南對於財政收支劃分法有他的一個主張對不對阿就那賴世保委員,賴世保本人很不簡單欸當年的財政紀律法在109、19年的時候就是賴世保"},{"start":3200.1,"end":3218.47,"text":"那個 蔡委員如果你要繼續發言還是我們等一下再開放第二輪好不好我們會廣泛討論也有十幾分鐘你已經講了6分鐘了我們尊重一下後面委員的權利那個已經在按第三次了那個已經是按第三次了你已經3加1加1了"},{"start":3222.99,"end":3231.723,"text":"財政紀律廣泛討論、廣泛發言。今天不要除條,你不用擔心啦,不除條啦。可以了可以了可以了。這個蔡委員"},{"start":3239.252,"end":3255.365,"text":"要給你尊重一下後面委員的發言對不對每一位都有發言的機會尊重一下喔會不會可以再來登記可以繼續發言會不會讓大家暢所欲言不用擔心廣泛討論還有等一下可以可以繼續登記繼續登記可以喔"},{"start":3268.994,"end":3276.599,"text":"陳旭寬已經宣布停止了啦我們當事班你再來登記好不好陳旭寬來等一下陳旭寬各位來來大家請先回座齁沒關係來"},{"start":3283.962,"end":3309,"text":"程序一發言剛剛已經登記截止如果大家講完的時候來不用聽我講不會不會我會讓他講完請大家回座齁剛剛說了沒有沒有沒有大家回座齁我們程序發言是3分鐘剛剛蔡議委員已經講了6分鐘了如果要再發言我們還有第二輪沒有關係大家不要急齁一定會讓大家我有排兩天的議程大家不用擔心齁"},{"start":3312.031,"end":3338.521,"text":"這個尊重後面委員發言的權利齁蔡委員後面委員也要發言啦那個現在我們那個等一下齁沒有沒有吵沒有吵請大家坐下蔡委員要發言繼續登記沒有問題齁請大家先回座請大家先回座不用擔心等一下再登記第二輪等一下第二輪等一下好嗎"},{"start":3339.693,"end":3364.975,"text":"不要吵!不要吵!各位委員,今天有充分的時間,我排了兩天,大家不要急喔!開不完晚上還可以再開,沒有關係喔!剛剛講太久已經影響到後面委員的程序來,請隨坐!剛剛這個是第一輪的...程序委員會3分鐘,他已經講了20分鐘了啦!沒有那麼影響到別人了啦!"},{"start":3366.056,"end":3377.703,"text":"已經到新郎委員了沒有安捏對不對還可以第二次、第三次給你夠啊好來第二次再登記好來第二次再登記已經講20分鐘了還怎麼用還怎麼用好來各位我把規則再講一次喔未委員發言3分鐘"},{"start":3393.092,"end":3415.74,"text":"我先再講一次喔大家注意聽一下每位人發言三分鐘到時候我們會按鈴按鈴我們繼續算每超過一分鐘我們會再按一次好嗎每人聽到剛剛他已經被按了四次鈴了已經六分鐘以上了我會讓大家暢所欲言不用擔心蔡委員你尊重一下那個下一位委員要講話了大家請坐下"},{"start":3418.24,"end":3443.965,"text":"等一下可以繼續講我們還有廣泛討論還有每個人都有可以一輪、二輪、三輪可以開到晚上大家不要急齁我們今天開到晚上也沒有關係齁我先等一下我還沒請你發請等一下我把這個秩序講一下每位委員3分鐘超過以後每1分鐘我們要再按一次鈴齁剛剛蔡議員說的這個預算請行政院趕快你也是幹部趕快求一下行政院趕快把預算編好依法編列進來我們趕快審齁好幹部回去"},{"start":3447.419,"end":3473.191,"text":"對,有有有一直按啊,按到希望他下來對,一直按一直按但我學生要尊重一下後面的委員啦有啦,有一直按啦有一直按,有一直按有一直按,有一直按請大家尊重,你要再發言可以我們再讓你登記嘛好不好等一下我們可以在第二輪登記還有廣泛發言今天可以開到晚上大家不用急,這個是排到禮拜三的好嗎好,那接著"},{"start":3474.4,"end":3478.986,"text":"可以了齁 我們請第二位登記發言的委員齁好 我再講清楚一點"},{"start":3481.79,"end":3509.419,"text":"程序發言每位委員發言3分鐘3分鐘到的時候我們會按一次0然後超過時間每1分鐘我們會再請這個紀錄台再按一次0希望大家自覺啦自覺尊重後面還要發言的委員那今天剛登記程序發言的委員總共有13位吳麗華也登記了13位嘛13位委員剛剛有問說有沒有要再登記的大家都沒有嘛那我等一下第二輪也沒關係第二輪我們再重新登記好不好"},{"start":3512.261,"end":3533.739,"text":"還有大體討論也已經登記了我們也會進入大體討論這個都會大家不要急就是會讓大家廣泛的發言多多的發言暢所欲言大家可以挑燈夜戰我想官員要陪著我們還沒有還沒有等大家講完嘛等大家講完如果大家都照準時講完大概30幾分鐘後就有第二次"},{"start":3535.034,"end":3550.59,"text":"不知道,說不定沒有人要發言啊,還有廣泛討論啊。好,請等一下。好,我們接著,是不是讓這個登記程序發言的第二位委員吳秉銘委員發言。那每一位委員是3分鐘,請注意時間。要講可以再繼續登記,尊重後面登記的委員好嗎?好,請說。嗯。"},{"start":3562.452,"end":3590.325,"text":"我覺得如果大家這麼想發言廣泛發言我們可以再登記第二次第三次也沒關係要看大家如果照遵守的話齁如果每個人都遵守三分鐘現在還有12位就36分鐘齁如果有人跟剛剛蔡委員一樣比較喜歡發就是有很多想法正面的很多想法想要讓大家知道可能是你一個小時齁這個要看大家遵不遵守秩序沒有每個人都三分鐘齁啊如果要遵守後面你可以再登記一次"},{"start":3593.235,"end":3593.735,"text":"那根據這個我們議事規則"},{"start":3605.27,"end":3631.899,"text":"第58條列席委員不得做程序發言出席可以啦,出席可以等一下我看一下哪幾位,大部分都是本委員會的嘛一兩位而已啦,一兩位不是啦沒關係,後面不行我們劃掉你就會那你也是本委員會的嘛好啦,我們大家不要再提問,讓五名委員發言好嗎?有問題等一下再提好嗎?你先問"},{"start":3635.37,"end":3658.167,"text":"這是什麼決定?非本委員會。那你已經發言了。對,沒關係沒關係。不過沒關係。好,好,OK。可以可以。那你請你坐下。我機會讓你繼續講,你坐著。要會議詢問也可以齁。好,請坐下來。好。"},{"start":3660.317,"end":3679.995,"text":"對、對。阿等一下另外再登記。另外再登記沒關係吼。等一下發言人我們會再給大家實現登記。等一下程序發言會照這一張。會照這一張。會照這一張、會照這一張。好。你請坐。我們會程序發言。不行。他說練習的不行。阿就啊。我們去登記呢。"},{"start":3681.878,"end":3689.485,"text":"規循可以登記。好,那你們要詢問我們等下讓你們登記,讓你們講。我們讓你們講。好。你們這樣弄錯了。對啊,你們弄錯了。我們現在是要去詢問。對。那某個方便的,某個方便的。對。你們都,你們都,你們都要講這個。你們都要分一詢問。一定盡量給你講。是不是要,到底分幾次啊?你分一詢問,是不是要分,分幾次啊?"},{"start":3717.106,"end":3722.128,"text":"對,我們會讓每位委員都發言,對對對,好,就是這樣子齁,OK,好"},{"start":3733.581,"end":3760.068,"text":"然後我來跟大家講一下一般我們程序發言是3分鐘會議詢問是1分鐘那剛剛因為大家都登記了每一位都給3分鐘讓大家暢所欲言那如果發言完畢大家覺得不好但我希望大家要尊重因為你後面還有人要講你可以再來登記第二次我會再開放一次給大家登記再發言好嗎讓大家再講那登記講3分鐘到時候站起來的時候大家自覺的是說一下尾這樣還有沒有意見"},{"start":3760.928,"end":3770.221,"text":"每一件喔,本會委員我們來做這個程序翻,那如果非本委員你就上來做會議詢問沒關係齁,我們就讓大家上手預言。好,那大家都沒有意見,每一件吳秉輝委員。好,謝謝,終於輪到我了齁。"},{"start":3774.811,"end":3781.478,"text":"這張我是跟蔡宇宇我們的書記長借用的,的確我也贊成他的講法總預算卡住,沒有副委,財委會沒有總預算可以審查結果現在趕快要來弄這個財劃法,這個是不是不審預算只想搶錢"},{"start":3796.546,"end":3823.045,"text":"他這個講法我是可以接受的但是我覺得這樣很不好其實財劃法他的修正牽涉到很大這不是光是有錢的垂直分配跟水平分配的問題因為你錢要拿錢要辦事嘛所以還有包括到底地方政府哪一些工作他要拿去做才能增加這麼多錢啊不然平白多這麼多錢掉下來給他他要幹嘛呢他要放到銀行存定存嗎"},{"start":3824.517,"end":3835.872,"text":"還是說他趕快去找個地方蓋蚊子管然後來去消化這些預算呢所以光只有要把錢下放我覺得這個討論這個命題是不完整的"},{"start":3837.169,"end":3865.601,"text":"應該要連地方制度法權如何分配哪一些事情要由中央撥到地方來搭配的錢的分配權跟錢要一起做整體的考慮所以我在這個地方建議召委無論是陳召委還是我們的賴召委應該對這一方面也要開公聽會啦稍微是陳召委開的公聽會只有關於這個垂直的錢如何分配水平如何分配的討論"},{"start":3867.061,"end":3891.99,"text":"這裡要包括事權的分配你錢拿到就有意義嘛錢拿到是要花在刀口上是要造福我們的國民的嘛那你只有光分配錢那只有中央錢少了那麼多中央本來他該做的事情算編不出錢來做結果地方該做的事情沒有增加突然多了一大筆錢突然多了幾千億那地方政府如果消化這個錢呢所以我覺得這樣的討論是不夠的"},{"start":3896.703,"end":3910.44,"text":"欸 賴朝偉跟陳朝偉我是在帶你們對話說拜託你們說聽話要開啥啦要把地方制度法跟財劃法的大方向拿出來一起談不要光只有談財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3911.622,"end":3927.257,"text":"財政收支劃分法大家都知道涉及到垂直分配跟水平分配其實我們政府因為這兩年我們的財政收入都遠大於預算數所以到了年底的時候每一個地方政府都分配到很多的多一筆的這個"},{"start":3929.342,"end":3935.926,"text":"統籌分配稅款因我的了解很多的縣市如果在目前的制度他要辦的事情現在錢都夠了他不但沒有負債還還了不少錢這是事實的狀況我們可以查證那如果在這個狀況之下"},{"start":3944.75,"end":3965.637,"text":"你還要一口氣丟那麼多錢給他的時候他要如何消化所以我覺得這件事情我在這裡再提出我陳志的建議我希望陳昭偉跟賴昭偉你們除了財政收支劃分法要跟地方制度法一起並一起談談個大方向如何全、事權如何分配這樣子問題才有辦法全面謝謝"},{"start":3968.208,"end":3989.101,"text":"謝謝吳委員剛剛他說到這個地方支付法我們今天有出席的這個列席的這個內政部民政室專門委員有聽到回去要請內政部趕快提出相關的地方支付法的修正不然我們立法院是不會再等你們內政部民政室一定要記起來吳委員的這個發言的重點第二個是補助的部分我想地方政府要錢"},{"start":3990.602,"end":4013.071,"text":"這個也不會沒事做現在做的就是總統給的錢那現在是地方以後不用像乞丐一樣乞討就是照正常的這樣這樣的照他正常程序在走嘛民政司有記錄齁地方制度法要記下來齁這個要要修正同步要修正部分趕快齁身為執政黨要趕快的努力進行齁好接著我們請第三位賴司法委員"},{"start":4027.264,"end":4035.69,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進看到今天這個場面就知道民眾黨團是由貝爾來的這個貝爾也沒有講清楚功課沒有做足他講說我們要一手搶五七七一億這個是舊的資料先是三千兩百多億你們資料都錯了 要做了看不到要做了 要蓋這要用手了 用手這版本 用手我知道你們助理在講什麼了"},{"start":4058.283,"end":4072.431,"text":"我們黨團最新的是三千兩百多啦有啦有啦有好啦沒關係啦這個今天啦我們知道這個民眾黨團我講話拜託尊重一下你講話我都沒差水我講一下就叫我講這樣這個大家知道民眾黨團不要這個案子嘛"},{"start":4085.698,"end":4092.964,"text":"今天給大家看都是一場戲啦齁那我們也尊重不過主席一直沒有講一句話主席說今天沒有主條啦所以你們今天用雞皮疙瘩啦今天也沒有主條你們要阻擋什麼呢今天就讓你們講一直講一直講今天講不夠禮拜三再講讓你一直講"},{"start":4111.291,"end":4130.178,"text":"啊你們說今天來是假來的啦 老實說 因為今天就不要主條都不要主條 連大體討論的緊張 還要程序發言 還要這個所以你們要 要杯葛 要 要軟杯葛 要看清楚今天其實是啥What's going on 啊了解一下 今天就沒要主條啊 啊 老實說 我還要會議詢問嘛為什麼今天不要主條 陳立正召委"},{"start":4140.117,"end":4152.225,"text":"你不要講一個本院的以前公聽會搞這麼久了主要民眾黨開了公聽會陳立正在開了公聽會然後從上個會期到現在已經幾個月了為什麼不要組條財政部藐視我們"},{"start":4156.611,"end":4168.435,"text":"明明說這個會期之前要提出他的本本也沒有後來才了解為什麼沒有卓榮泰在大院就講了他說目前這是最好的本本目前叫什麼皇帝安啟治把各地縣市政府、地方政府當作乞丐一樣我賞賜你啊給你這個啊今天你比較多你這個天氣好你效能比較多多給你一點就這樣啊"},{"start":4186.792,"end":4208.026,"text":"所以很清楚看得到當然中央他要目前這個制度啊因為這個制度就是皇帝恩己治啊中央是皇帝、地方是乞丐啊就這樣啊故事就這麼簡單啊所以說財政分配、水水分配都非常重要剛才我已經提案了要連署一個東西就是我們以後每一年一定要增加"},{"start":4215.503,"end":4216.545,"text":"一定要增加!修法以後一定要比修法以前的還增加!我也強調我也再次的強調"},{"start":4227.649,"end":4246.994,"text":"三千兩百億國民黨團跟民眾黨團是很接近的三千兩百億垂直分別那你是水平大概分沒得財政部就先要怎麼分按照財政部目前的方法分三千兩百億的話只是差別很大以前以前"},{"start":4248.94,"end":4273.574,"text":"財政部、中央72%但是經過我們如果3200億在法律上就規定給地方政府的話大概降到60幾%左右我覺得這比較符合中央地方的一個平衡最後我們看到民眾黨團今天的訴求我知道在版本你的手本一直貼了所以要省中央政府總預算我們請"},{"start":4275.779,"end":4280.924,"text":"所謂龍泰院長今天要犧牲了各位你們也不要這個世界化強得太硬了齁"},{"start":4283.1,"end":4308.4,"text":"他說不定會亂布啊,他這個神盾撩亂啊但是他昨天那個臉書,昨天晚上臉書丟了,看不到你知道嗎哦,說要找小法官仲裁,那就是找那個大法官來為事啊大法官什麼時候變成民進黨的旁邊外圍組織啊好像黑道一樣啊,大法官像黑道一樣只要在這裡不喜歡的法案,民進黨不接受的法案"},{"start":4309.502,"end":4335.831,"text":"他就找到老官為什麼進而補充條例的20億、27億他不給為什麼?因為在表決的時候民眾黨他們表決輸了結果表決輸了不然你們行政院提復議也沒有提復議賴清德總統也簽字公告了喔總統簽字公告的三讀後的法案為什麼行政院可以依法不編列"},{"start":4338.171,"end":4361.2,"text":"你不是一直講依法依法嗎?只要編到二十幾億,你要三兆二十幾億,你再編一筆!同情啊!或者你沒編,你一口就講!請總統派院長,沒跟我細算,還要我們去倒閣他!他如果真的要離開立法院,要離開行政院,他自己辭職的話,最後一句話,各位!"},{"start":4364.661,"end":4376.207,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":4379.048,"end":4393.323,"text":"今天應該要足調了但是 早晚既然不足不足調我就尊重拜託下一次要排球要足調了啦要不然大家浪費大家的時間這個深頭一刀、縮頭一刀遲早要面對啦謝謝"},{"start":4396.616,"end":4411.929,"text":"我們謝謝賴司法委員我們今天要進行的是廣泛討論廣泛討論就是說大家針對財化法有什麼意見就暢所欲言民主時代讓大家暢所欲言但是現在進行的程序還在程序發言跟會議詢問接著我們請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在奈會委員"},{"start":4424.114,"end":4426.177,"text":"王宏威委員,到了,叫訪問了"},{"start":4437.868,"end":4457.893,"text":"好謝謝主席以及我們現場各位同仁還有官員那我想我們今天繼續的來審查財劃法主要是回應絕大多數的縣市包含民進黨執政縣市比如說台南市還有高雄市事實上在我們上個會期在審查的時候那麼我們財委會也有邀請各縣市的代表有的是副市長陳吉"},{"start":4466.395,"end":4485.264,"text":"絕大多數起碼也都是他們財政局長當時我全程聆聽那時候其實我沒有聽到哪一個縣市說不要修財化法我不曉得在座的這些現在來關心財化法的同仁們那天可能你們都沒有全程聆聽"},{"start":4486.404,"end":4509.322,"text":"當天現場可能各縣市可能提到的是說他也希望你要考慮到人口你要考慮到農地面積你要考慮到我的財政貢獻度但是沒有一個縣市反對修正財劃法這個必須要跟大家今天來關係的各位委員報告那另外"},{"start":4510.183,"end":4533.611,"text":"我們一直在講就是說因為現在財政部一直不願意提出修法版本但是我們各縣市都希望修法這才是我們立法委員、立法院應該要為民喉舌我們要為各縣市來表達他們的權益另外我覺得還有一件事情必須要跟大家報告"},{"start":4534.491,"end":4550.743,"text":"例如說我們也注意到我們的賴總統在國慶日的時候說我們明年度對各縣市的補助增加了八百九十幾億就將近九百億之多創新高"},{"start":4551.804,"end":4554.125,"text":"可是問題是我們現在的補助啊是不換寡而換不均非常的不平均別說從110年度到114年度連續5年"},{"start":4568.17,"end":4589.23,"text":"包含我們中央屹住的財源稅出的比例我們台北市都是最後一名但是想想看怎麼會每一年台北市我們受到的補助都是最後一名而幾乎每一年第一名都是台南市然後第二名都是高雄市"},{"start":4589.87,"end":4591.671,"text":"好,所以我們應該知道就是說這6年來各縣市不管是它的財政的變化、人口的變化或者到產業變化都不一樣但是唯一不變的是這些補助永遠台北市敬佩莫做"},{"start":4608.504,"end":4621.82,"text":"永遠一二名的都是台南市跟高雄市所以這樣的補助如此不均我說不換寡而換不均如果今天的補助是看顏色來補助的話那對於極多"},{"start":4623.422,"end":4636.353,"text":"大多數的縣市都是非常非常不公平的事情所以我們才希望我們也期待我們大家能夠回應我們大部分縣市他們的一個要求能夠在財劃裡面修正"},{"start":4639.095,"end":4667.503,"text":"讓我們的各縣市它的財政自主權它的自有財源比例能夠提高所以也請我們執政黨的各位同仁們謝謝你們關心財劃法但是不要只有一天關心啊那麼如果你能夠長期的關心你就知道修正財劃法事實上是跨越藍綠地方縣市的大家共同心願以上謝謝"},{"start":4669.318,"end":4670.278,"text":"謝謝主席我覺得我還是必須要表達就是在這一次就是在野黨的一個修法那事實上有沒有道理"},{"start":4696.49,"end":4707.022,"text":"國民黨的新版本基本上還沒有拿出來,那為什麼會有新的版本?當然他們也知道在第一次他們丟出來的一個版本一邊要搶5777億的一個預算,可是他一手"},{"start":4713.649,"end":4734.136,"text":"又要擋3兆的這個預算。這個顯然是非常錯亂啦。非常錯亂。為什麼?如果我們以國民黨目前提出的版本,他是要從中央多拿5000多億。可是,國民黨就是即使國民黨他提出來的一個修正版,中央也要再多釋出4000多億啊。"},{"start":4735.376,"end":4751.502,"text":"那現行的中央分配補助地方的一個統籌分配款跟補助款的1兆以我們是用114年的這個預算概括來看那依照國民黨提案通過等同中央要再給地方1.4兆"},{"start":4754.025,"end":4766.031,"text":"等於是說中央要再給地方一點視照啊這政府才會不會倒呢?政府絕對倒啊那我們不知道就是說國民黨他們存在的一個心態是什麼樣的一個心態"},{"start":4767.54,"end":4789.146,"text":"一手推這個財劃法要從中央大搬錢然後一手又去擋中央的一個預算那剛才剛才我們賴委員我們賴世保委員他有講說如果以目前來講的話中央是皇帝那地方是乞丐那怎麼讓他去吃在官廟說的這也很奇怪的不是貝殼啦我跟你講為什麼今天我們"},{"start":4797.435,"end":4818.871,"text":"我們民眾黨的議員來了這麼多這個其實是可以表示就是說我們不是來杯葛我們是非常重視這個財劃法那也不是來鬧場是因為我們重視所以我們希望就是說財委會它的每一個每一個就是環節裡頭都可以很精準的開會"},{"start":4819.972,"end":4840.826,"text":"那在這裡我也是再一次跟陳一貞委員、趙委我們會再共同協商我想公聽會我們必須要再開因為公聽會的一個開法就是說我會主張就是地方跟中央不是只有錢的問題還有這個"},{"start":4843.488,"end":4866.471,"text":"事權,你這個事情誰來做啊?事情誰來做這個非常重要了。剛剛王洪威委員特別在點到我們台南我想這個他又有點那個片斷了,那斷章取義了。其實財劃法的分配25年來為什麼都沒有修?這個過程裡頭其實是有5次的一個修法。那如果就是說"},{"start":4867.592,"end":4890.37,"text":"直轄市的一個申請的話其實它有很多建設案是申請的方式還是競爭的方式那你這樣子講台南是不公平的我們台南是很努力的這個要回到就是說整個財劃法裡頭中央跟水平的一個財務上的一個分配我們沒有真正的落實到這個"},{"start":4891.571,"end":4915.08,"text":"事情 這個權利、事權怎麼分配這個是我的一個主張啦那當然就是說財法法距離上一次的修法是在1999年那經過了25年這期間也發生了就是在2010年2014年六度的合併跟升格的大事情那其實每一次中央跟地方前線的一個衝突的這個"},{"start":4917.421,"end":4920.904,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4941.903,"end":4942.103,"text":"我們還可以再討論。謝謝主席。"},{"start":4963.609,"end":4991.548,"text":"我們謝謝賴會員、委員不過那個民進黨團是不是弄錯我們要審的我們要審的版本你說黨的總計算這是114年明年的版本但是修財文法不可能114年就適用最快最快也是115年這是兩個潮態的事情兩個連分的事情這個審的是114我們現在總計算沒有送假那是114的那修財文法最快適用也是115這怎麼會是一件事情不會混為一談"},{"start":4997.512,"end":5008.699,"text":"但是你那個說一手擋預算一手搶預算一個是114一個150不是同一個事情所以我們也會充分討論我們也會充分討論"},{"start":5017.674,"end":5036.766,"text":"好,會讓大家充分討論齁那大家如果覺得對各縣市不公平我們這個對台灣市不公平我們才會有兩位台灣市的委員嘛至少也可以提出版本啦齁歡迎好,快共通也可以趕快下禮拜賴哲偉輪值就可以拍了嘛好,接著我們請李坤城委員謝謝"},{"start":5047.608,"end":5071.36,"text":"主席齁 這其實齁我上禮拜這個供電會齁其實我就提到了齁就是說我們在講這一個財務法的這個劃分那錢跟勢要來統一啊齁那你之後在講說錢要怎麼去分配那你沒有講說那這個接下來各個地方政府跟中央政府的這個勢權要去怎麼做劃分那所以我說你財務法修"},{"start":5072.18,"end":5089.419,"text":"國安很重要那但是呢關於這個地方支出法是不是也要修那也很重要啊內政部今天如果是今天是部長來他們就好好來談嘛今天不是部長來啊對不對以後我們會請更高階的官員過來對啊所以說我是說啊如果真的要討論的話"},{"start":5090.82,"end":5118.115,"text":"市的事情要討論、企業的事情要討論那我們當然財政委員會你要把這個財務法修得好那當然兩個要一起討論嘛那所以說上次辦了一個工天會我就覺得還可以再討論不論是這個陳昭偉或是未來我們這個賴昭偉的部分關於地方制度法如何因應在這個財務法修正之後市權如何去做調整分配這個很重要啊"},{"start":5119.216,"end":5134.741,"text":"那我拿這個齁,我認為這個是心態的問題啦原本這個時候,財委會應該要討論這個明年度的總預算啦沒有啊,我們現在是優先來討論未來有可能要做的這個財劃法"},{"start":5136.441,"end":5162.753,"text":"那如果大家覺得說財務法很重要啊我要從中央多挖一些錢啊地方政府要這個水平分配要怎麼去分配更合理那其實我們應該先讓總預算先來討論啊先討論總預算啊你沒有討論這個總預算那你就在想說未來這個財務法通過之後這個地方政府可以多拿到多少錢然後地方政府要怎麼去分我說啊這個不是說"},{"start":5163.633,"end":5181.154,"text":"今天就算通過了,明年這個就要適用。我說是心態的問題。這一黨心態的問題。就是說,最重要的擺在眼前的總預算,大家不討論。那請問一下,那明年各個地方政府,他的錢是哪裡來?他錢是哪裡來?"},{"start":5184.881,"end":5186.804,"text":"現在各個縣市政府都在討論總預算那反正這個原來的計劃照用嘛"},{"start":5202.823,"end":5224.199,"text":"立法院在野黨黨中央的總預算那地方也不用審了啊那第一個中央的預算你撥不到地方啊那第二個一樣嘛按照這個在野黨的說法不用審預算預算照用啊原來的計畫照用啊那呼籲啊各個地方政府現在也不用審查總預算啊都不用審查嘛那整個預算都擺在那邊啊"},{"start":5226.209,"end":5229.03,"text":"人民百姓希望看到這種情況嗎?"},{"start":5229.03,"end":5230.15,"text":"不願意嗎?"},{"start":5230.15,"end":5251.738,"text":"所以我看到這個在總詢詢的時候好多個在野黨的立委他們在跟院長在討論就是說我地方上這個地方水利建設、軌道建設、交通建設、城鄉建設都需要中央政府希望能夠來協助、希望能夠來補助"},{"start":5253.418,"end":5282.25,"text":"結果在中央講的是頭頭是道在地方是講的是說我在中央爭取了多少預算回到我們地方結果沒有啊你是在中央你是在台北擋這個預算啊你在台北你在立法院擋預算那結果你回到地方之後說你看我在這個立法院在地方爭取了多少預算回來空的啦這個欺騙地方的老百姓啊"},{"start":5283.359,"end":5305.41,"text":"地方老百姓又問你一句說啊你不是在黨總預算嗎啊你在黨總預算啊你為什麼還要說什麼你就徵取了多少預算回來這不是很矛盾的事情嗎所以我是希望說固然修改財務法很重要但是我剛才認為說我講的就是說事權的統一的部分有關地方制度法這部分"},{"start":5306.09,"end":5325.623,"text":"是不是大家也能夠來討論所以你今天沒有逐條討論基本上是肯定的因為二十幾個版本你要怎麼討論啊二十幾個版本我不知道要怎麼討論起啊就算你們國民黨裡面內部的歧義也很大啊那國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":5326.744,"end":5350.845,"text":"也不一樣啊所以我不知道說這20幾個版本怎麼逐條討論起這是第一個第二個再次呼籲再次呼籲總預算趕快先審這個時候我們應該要在財委會裡面好好去審查明年度的總預算了那不是在這邊還在討論說這個財務法要怎麼修啊等等之類的可以嗎?謝謝"},{"start":5354.52,"end":5376.281,"text":"我等一下可以再發言,因為後面還有很多的委員要講話。我有講6分鐘了嗎?這樣子。我以為是3分鐘而已啊。好,謝謝。謝謝我們這個李坤城委員。綜合剛剛李委員所說的齁,這一次這個列席的這個官員齁,內政委的官員層次太低齁,下一回記錄一下一定要請最少...你們說沒有部長也來不夠嗎?"},{"start":5379.34,"end":5395.008,"text":"對!對!對!青年次專委層次比較低嘛!好!OK!好!你那時候部長來採購記得喔!下次邀請部長!下次邀請部長!好!我們記下來!李坤東委員我們下次修草案一定邀請部長過來!內政部部長喔!內政部記一下!還有已經第二次!"},{"start":5397.627,"end":5423.396,"text":"啊,OK,好,因為專門委員的位階比部長低了,好,就是下次我們要邀請部長、專門委員請記下來,內政部記下來。第二個,這是第二位委員說要修地方制度法,請內政部要趕快的提出地方制度法的修正。然後第三個他說的是,我們要趕快修這個審議算,這個是事實啦,但是立法院不是只有短期經歷,只看明年預算,國家的長治久安也很重要,所以這個財富辦法也是應該修正的。"},{"start":5424.796,"end":5439.397,"text":"都要,同步要做,同步要做。好,這歸納李委員的發言,大概是這幾點。認證部要特別記下來喔,要提地方制度法喔。來,接著我們請張海林委員做會議詢問喔,謝謝。"},{"start":5452.082,"end":5477.893,"text":"主席好、各位委員好但我想在我發言之前我想要先做兩點的說明就是說剛剛賴氏堡委員有說我們今天不是要來杯葛的我必須鄭重的澄清我們並不是要來杯葛我想作為一個關心國家總預算的立法委員我們都應該要來為我們的總預算能夠敬、能夠奉偉來做好好的說明跟爭取第二件事情我想要來做個說明是剛剛"},{"start":5479.313,"end":5504.408,"text":"陳玉珍主席他說李昆城委員覺得我們這次邀請的層次太低我想我必須來說明層次跟層級的兩個差異我想如果陳玉珍委員需要字典我也可以送過去那再來就是說針對我們這一次剛剛前面有非常多的委員其實都有提到就是說我們總預算到現在此時無法赴委可是我們現在卻要來進行一個財化法的討論"},{"start":5506.448,"end":5520.284,"text":"我們現在114年總預算都還沒有著落去討論115年是不是有點次序不分重要性的排序搞不清楚"},{"start":5522.725,"end":5548.053,"text":"我想,因為其實我們這陣子因為我的責任區在桃園的盧竹跟龜山還有大園我們常常也都會遇到國民黨的委員在地方說跟鄉親說我會回去幫你們爭取預算我會去跟中央來爭取但是已經第五次黨總預算了我不知道是不是太習慣我們的國民黨委員都太習慣來開這個空口支票不好好的來做我們立法院的工作"},{"start":5549.986,"end":5567.244,"text":"那上個月就是9月財政部公布了明年度的中央統籌分配稅款總額達到了歷史新高4461.17億元那這個總預算如果不通過那請問這些資源該怎麼分配所以我要再次的來呼籲我們希望國民黨的立委"},{"start":5568.405,"end":5589.051,"text":"一起來支持我們114年總議會的順利審查這關係到我們所有所有全體國民的一個福利那同時我也發現國民黨這次提出的一個財劃法將對中央的財政造成巨大的衝擊讓我們不得不正視這幾個重大的影響第一個中央稅法減少之後我們的中央稅路將大幅的減少"},{"start":5590.507,"end":5604.608,"text":"約4千多億元。為了維持財政紀律,中央舉債數不應再增加,就只能縮減我們的稅出規模。同時,因為無法刪除我們這些法律義務支出,像是人事費、社會保險支出、還有教育經費,"},{"start":5605.749,"end":5620.081,"text":"所以呢我們就會有一些計劃要受到影響那這幾個計劃其實對我來說我非常關注因為我一直都是在做兒童權利跟兒童相關福利的像是少子化對策會直接少了291億還有強化社安網的第二期計劃75億我們我想凱開案這些案子大家都記憶猶新如果我們不來積極的強化佈局這些事情我們難道要讓事情再發生嗎"},{"start":5632.611,"end":5645.253,"text":"每次當事件出來的時候大家都說我們要來極力的打擊這件事情強化我們的社安網可是我們現在的作為是完全不省而且我們甚至把這些計劃的經費可能都會受到影響這是這個財劃法非常危險的地方"},{"start":5646.892,"end":5674.257,"text":"再來還有就是說我們的前瞻特別預算像是我們的這些提升人行安全計劃整體性的治山防災計劃其實都會受到影響山坨和颱風帶來的影響性大家我想都記憶猶新那還有我們這個行人安全的事情我們不要因為現在的這些財化法的一個錯誤的分配造成我們的縣市沒有辦法我們現在國家這個整體的計劃沒有辦法在縣市好好的去推動"},{"start":5675.41,"end":5704.039,"text":"最後我還是想要講因為剛剛王宏威委員有講到說其實大家的共識都是可以來修財劃法但後面有一句話叫做奇異很大這個奇異很大呢其實還需要做更多充分的討論而且事權的分配到底應該要如何的分配不能夠只拿錢不辦事嘛不負任何的權利所以我希望可以在充分的討論收集大家的意見讓我們如果我們要做這件事情的話就好好地把事情做好謝謝"},{"start":5713.075,"end":5733.885,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員雖然聽到最後不知道要回應詢問什麼事情我不知道你在詢問什麼不過謝謝你對本人的指正謝謝喔本人是念台大中文系對語言應該潛質用字有一定的水準喔好 謝謝接著我們請范芸這個我學姊喔 謝謝"},{"start":5736.513,"end":5740.258,"text":"好,我會認真檢討喔這我學姐喔,謝謝那個先請主席喔在我發言完之後不要任意評論好嗎"},{"start":5749,"end":5764.339,"text":"我是聽不懂他在會議詢問什麼主席不是AI主持人請做意識中性的評論非常中性我在問他說他到底要詢問什麼講完以後我都聽不到他的詢問程度"},{"start":5772.796,"end":5797.394,"text":"我想今天我們的會議詢問很一致是為什麼這是預算會期不審總預算卻要修法搶總預算而且我要講的是我當立委跟陳玉珍委員我不知道陳玉珍委員當過幾年我當4年過去我們在預算會期如果要審法案的話都是審很少數非常有共識的法案不會去審那個爭議這麼的大然後"},{"start":5800.936,"end":5814.947,"text":"好好審查總預算卻要修法強總預算沒有共識的法案先回到不審總預算這件事情藍白國民黨有很多講法包含什麼綠能你不能開記者會後來我去查證事實上"},{"start":5818.47,"end":5829.323,"text":"民眾黨過去是少數那從來沒有像這樣子在程序委員會就黨遇上而且五度黨大家自己可以去查證這個謊言說得太誇張了然後宣稱完全沒有影響"},{"start":5834.329,"end":5858.068,"text":"根據預算法第54條那新興資本支出及新增計劃沒有審查的話都不能動用那非常多的包含就是癌症百億基金就是青年圓夢這些新興的計劃其實都無法動用如果沒有就是按照我們表定功課審查難道大家要在最後一秒就是"},{"start":5859.329,"end":5881.831,"text":"一天之內審查完畢嗎?這樣也不是我們立委該做的過去這幾年在這個時候我們就應該好好的認真的審預算了那我想以今天這個主題財劃法為什麼說沒有共識以我看到的國民黨的版本對財政的影響第一個剛剛很多都講過修法後中央稅入大幅減少4080億"},{"start":5884.033,"end":5905.493,"text":"那你中央的稅服稅務減少卻要求一般性的補助款不能減少而且依照法律義務支出的基本上不能夠因為財政困難中央任意刪除結果呢把這些法律義務的支出的預算扣掉之後中央還剩多少錢中央只剩下3689億"},{"start":5909.797,"end":5930.073,"text":"3689億中央要做多少事所以以下這些都是中央可能會被迫要刪減百分之三十一就是接近三分之一才能夠處理的例如國防預算2945億可能要被迫31%勞保基金補助中央興辦社會住宅強化社會安全網"},{"start":5931.314,"end":5955.734,"text":"這個期屬役還有癌症防治還有教育經費還有我關心的小子女化托育公共化而0到2歲的兒童基金那各位說這些事情地方來做我們想想看你信任地方嗎地方財政紀律惡化惡名昭彰經常加碼非法訂設服以某縣市為例某個"},{"start":5956.815,"end":5972.615,"text":"我們東部知名縣市他把教育經費拿去辦營養午餐為了選票說每個兒童都要有雞腿的營養午餐結果兒童吃到太大的冷凍的營養午餐因為沒有辦法好好地煮好"},{"start":5972.975,"end":5996.327,"text":"然後呢這個交易經費被任意支用結果大量使用代理教師那這個是我在質詢的時候已經提過的這個就是最惡劣的地方財政紀律的惡化所以呢我想過去的公聽會已經講到社權支出要平衡目前的版本都沒有做到這樣子那在這種情況下我請問主席為什麼不好好的審總預算"},{"start":5999.589,"end":6012.54,"text":"卻修法要搶總預算而且完全沒有學者專家認定的平衡版本出現所以我認為這是我今天覺得對主席最重要的詢問希望主席的中文程度有聽懂好 謝謝"},{"start":6014.421,"end":6035.453,"text":"非常謝謝范委員我會正式的回答請范委員對我們財政委員會的委員要有信心預算進來以後我們一定會即便挑燈夜戰不眠不休我們都會把總預算審查完畢不用擔心我們財委會委員都是早上4點多就到立法院來簽到的我們會從早審到晚大家不用擔心謝謝接著我們請郭益勤委員做會議詢問"},{"start":6057.734,"end":6078.746,"text":"主席好然後各位立法院的同事大家好剛剛其實真的聽了一輪下來我們講到預算其實是我們的國家政策的一個重要的核心因為它直接影響到我們的社福影響到我們的基礎建設影響到我們的教育影響到我們的長照影響到我們的醫療各個方面但是預算一定要合理的分配"},{"start":6079.426,"end":6090.615,"text":"才能夠讓我們的經濟成長。我想這一點其實大家都非常非常的清楚。那現在的國民黨黨版本他們是要求中央要釋出15%的一個稅收。這個會直接擠壓到什麼?我直接講,直接擠壓到我們的一般的學費的補助。將近有64萬的學生會被影響。再來租屋的補助。"},{"start":6101.324,"end":6118.503,"text":"還有育兒的津貼甚至於長照的部分都有可能會被擠壓那另外像是地方在執行一些項目往往會跨縣市我舉個例子來講比方說像我們的一些重大的交通建設捷運等軌道這個其實都是需要中央跟地方來溝通跟協調的如果現在要要求"},{"start":6122.387,"end":6137.014,"text":"像是國民黨提出的這個版本要大幅的刪減中央的財源那就一定會影響到要扣減所謂的計劃型的補助款那如果資源比較不夠的縣市該怎麼辦"},{"start":6137.834,"end":6143.12,"text":"另外我要回答一下剛剛有一位這個王委員他在講說現在大家都說要修財劃法沒錯過去25年來當中也不止一次我們提說要修財劃法但為什麼到最後其實無疾而終就是因為沒有共識嘛現在我們已經刪減了所謂的這個指標已經刪減到只剩52個"},{"start":6160.838,"end":6188.508,"text":"刪減到20幾個是比較不客觀、不普遍性的這個指標剩下52個目前達到共識的,抱歉,只有5個而已也就是說還有47個指標是沒有達成共識沒有達成共識為什麼要硬想要修而修為反而反,為修而修這個不是真的本末倒置嗎那我講以台北市為例啦剛剛也特別講到"},{"start":6189.688,"end":6213.721,"text":"六都的統籌分配的一個占比台北市113年、114年是增加了0.03%喔另外呢還有桃園市增加了多少0.16%喔剛剛又有委員說我們是在看顏色給補助抱歉啦我們以六都、高雄市、台南市民進黨執政的113年、114年是皆下降"},{"start":6219.024,"end":6240.349,"text":"兩個都是下降0.03所以我們到底哪一個在看顏色給補助我想這個部分不要在這邊變成一種造謠我們好好的講、好好的說那另外我真的要提的在程序委員會當中我們114年度只剩下最後的兩個多月我們的總預算都沒有過"},{"start":6241.729,"end":6256.273,"text":"總預算一直不斷的被擋沒有付為審查現在呢一手要擋我們114年的總預算一手又要從中央挖錢我想我的問題非常非常的清楚請問這個邏輯到底是在哪裡另外我補充齁6月18號黃珊珊委員她說她絕對不會支持國民黨提出的財劃法的版本"},{"start":6267.336,"end":6292.567,"text":"我想這個部分藍白之間如果還有旗艦還有共識我們再來討論以上是我的報告謝謝謝謝郭益勤委員對就是有旗艦所以才要我們多開委員會來討論那我請財政部聽到剛剛郭委員所提到的52個指標裡頭現在只有5個有共識請你們要加快速度達成共識這是委員的期許接著我們請陳佩玉委員余詢問"},{"start":6302.483,"end":6320.25,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要複製一下剛剛范委員的說法請主席不要評論委員的發言 謝謝另外我想要幫大家立法院科普一下因為今天應該有直播剛剛主席說挑登業戰也會把預算審查完我想要問"},{"start":6321.05,"end":6338.299,"text":"全台灣關心立法院關心預算關心我們每一天生活的公民我們難道要的是這樣的預算審查品質嗎但是主席公開的說就算挑燈夜戰也要把它審完我要再一次的問我們真的要的是這樣的預算審查品質嗎"},{"start":6340.74,"end":6356.025,"text":"主席您自己非常關心離島的建設你在上週五的院會甚至還提出來關於離島建設基金的部分所以我想問主席你是用這樣子的預算審查品質在關心離島建設嗎?我自己在教育文化委員會"},{"start":6356.966,"end":6372.207,"text":"教育文化非常多的議題常常都不是政治討論的主流他也不容易上新聞版面但是教育跟文化的工作是扎根的工作是面向未來的工作是國家發展重要的工作"},{"start":6372.728,"end":6391.28,"text":"我們自己在教育文化委員會每一次遇到重要法案討論我們都希望有高度的共識我們可能會有些微的差異但是大家在有共識的情況下積極進行討論所照顧到是每一個重要的我們關心的孩子跟教育文化的發展所以我要再次呼籲"},{"start":6392.701,"end":6412.037,"text":"雖然我的時間有限我還是希望在相關財政收支劃分法方不管是地方、不管是中央我們大家要有高度共識再來進行討論就連國民黨自己的版本也有20幾個版本所以我要再次呼籲希望主席也要呼籲如果你真的要回應我的評論就請你回應你要的給人民的預算審查品質是挑燈夜戰嘛"},{"start":6416.781,"end":6439.016,"text":"好,如果大家不願意在現在就開始花時間好好的討論、好好的規劃好好的服應各個地方的需求各個委員會的需求請問我們要講出一個什麼樣的國家如果主席你真的很愛回應也歡迎你回應這件事情接下來我要幫大家再科普一下剛剛主席又說凌晨4點財政委員會就有來簽名了啦但是大家我們實際上開會是9點鐘"},{"start":6442.658,"end":6460.404,"text":"9點鐘開會到12點如果中間還要休息不管要不要休息挑燈夜戰下去的品質是什麼我們在教育現場都告訴孩子我們要考試的時候我們要事先的準備我們要事先的準備是為了更好的考試品質但是身為國家立法委員我們卻是這樣面對預算我要再次呼籲一點都沒有離題因為如果國民黨要用這個態度民眾黨要用這個態度要擠壓時間的方法來審查預算我相信絕對是人民不樂見的"},{"start":6471.867,"end":6490.348,"text":"回應到今天主席要我們認真的提問那我就來問從國眾兩黨所有的版本裡面不僅是金額相差非常懸殊還有你們一直要把中央的餅叫中央把餅做大不管是統籌分配管或是垂直分配的部分所有的討論如果都還不夠具體"},{"start":6490.768,"end":6511.676,"text":"都還不夠聚焦,那就拜託召委,不管是國民黨還是民進黨的召委,都請再積極召開公聽會,讓更多的專家學者甚至不同議題不同主題的專家學者都進來一起討論。我相信這樣的討論由高度的共識,大家在審查法案的時候,在分配的預算的時候都還會考慮到區域的平衡。"},{"start":6514.817,"end":6527.43,"text":"過去我十幾年住在花蓮大家都知道花蓮是偏鄉如果按照國民黨現在非常多委員的版本你們只討論到人口那請問花蓮的爭議性又在哪裡?張瑋你自己來自離島我相信你更可以理解"},{"start":6528.433,"end":6553.325,"text":"接下來當我們把錢這樣分下去的時候請問各縣市政府有提出自己要做的事情的詳細規劃嗎?我們以現在手邊我們可以看到的資料各地方政府財政紀律不彰的相關案例以桃園市來說目前非法定社會福利的措施落在非常多的地方如果昭瑋你剛剛說預算有分顏色那我也要問"},{"start":6554.085,"end":6570.011,"text":"各地方政府在用這些預算有沒有不當的使用甚至是一種所謂的政治紅利買票的概念例如說老年市民三節禮金、重陽勤勞禮金、公私立國中小免費營養午餐、老人免費補助活動假牙這麼多"},{"start":6570.871,"end":6588.423,"text":"都屬於非法定社會福利措施而如果地方沒有建立自己的財政紀律我們把所有的錢都搬到地方去難道我們要看到地方是這樣子用這些財政預算的嗎?那我就不再舉例有多少縣市有類似的問題所以我想我的詢問就到此謝謝主席 謝謝各位"},{"start":6594.039,"end":6623.722,"text":"第一個陳委員因為他要我回應嘛他剛是公開許我他要我正式回應第一個你說挑針業戰挑針業戰是我們說會挑針業戰把這個預算審查好像我們參加這麼多年在委員會裡或在草野協調都審到12點我們都很認真的審查所以挑針業戰不等於是品質不好這個不是同一個邏輯啦這個表示我剛講會挑針業戰表示我們要審查預算審查法案的這個決心一定是要"},{"start":6624.182,"end":6642.359,"text":"有這個決心第二個因為民黨常常說沒有討論不是民主所以我就充分讓大家討論所以才需要很多的時間大家等一下也可以繼續有第二輪的登記跟發言第三個有關於我們財委會有委員4點多就來我想陳委員是不分區的人可能不理解"},{"start":6642.779,"end":6659.647,"text":"很多委員5點、6點我們就要到菜市場就要到路邊去送公車送這個選民所以4點多起床開始到公園去跟民眾打招呼跟選民打招呼是我們的責任不表示我們的工作品質不好因為我們都樹葉斐洩第4點公聽費的部分"},{"start":6661.323,"end":6678.432,"text":"開會之後我們4點就來因為才會有這個規矩啊4點多就可以來簽名然後大家簽完名就回選區去拜訪選民去公園跟選民黨招呼啊這很多財委會委員都是這麼認真的啊不是只有國民黨民黨也是有的人是這樣子的所以4點就來不表示不認真或是品質不好來"},{"start":6680.093,"end":6707.911,"text":"公聽會的部分上會期羅明才召委針對財劃法已經辦過一次公聽會本會期本席也辦過一次公聽會當然如果民進黨召委願意舉辦公聽會下個禮拜要趕快舉辦公聽會我們當然也是節成歡迎但是我們不因為有沒有民進黨委員舉辦公聽會而停止我們修法的這個決心我們會繼續往前推進長治久安是重要的我們必須往前走接著我們請林業行委員做會議詢問 謝謝"},{"start":6709.172,"end":6709.241,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":6722.925,"end":6746.338,"text":"我們今天要討論的是我們的財政發分法剛才我們的召委講說民進黨怎麼一直在處理那個114年的事情總預算怎麼不我們在財化法事實上是115年才會成行明天的事情不解決先去解決後天的事情也讓人家覺得很納悶啦那中央的補助款除了一般性的補助通常過去也會透過我們的"},{"start":6747.538,"end":6763.56,"text":"前瞻計劃跟特別預算來協助地方發展拉近城鄉差距根據我手邊的資料財政部的資料可以看到除了通酬分配款另外會搭配一般性跟計劃型的補助來益助地方的財源"},{"start":6764.608,"end":6793.808,"text":"近年役注的財源從103年的5486億元那逐年成長到114年的1兆151億元所以可供地方來編列預算跟依需求來規劃運用簡單的說也就中央想盡各種辦法把財源送到地方可是要合情合理啊符合應該要遵守的我們的財政紀律剛剛范雲委員說相信各地方政府首長嗎?"},{"start":6796.989,"end":6804.433,"text":"各縣市政府首長有受觀念是難原賠策以桃園市為例民進黨執政的時候"},{"start":6806.684,"end":6809.226,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6827.737,"end":6836.366,"text":"可是我們的張市長上任之後老人年金馬上還是回到2500還把我們的刪除排付條款的規定所以財政負擔一下成長了27.1億元"},{"start":6840.802,"end":6854.774,"text":"目前我們很多縣市都在履行選舉的一個承諾所以就會增加了就像剛剛范雲委員講的非法定的社會預算那用桃園為例非法定的社會預算從2022年的59億已經成長到2023年的87億成長了28億增加了28億"},{"start":6864.763,"end":6889.781,"text":"我同意應該把這些給予民眾更多的社會福利但是依據以及跟欠缺通盤長期考量的社會福利只是為了選舉開、兌現你的支票的時候反而會壓縮下一代的權益我們年輕家庭現在已經是少子化的時候是每一個需要他來努力我們的下一代的時候結果呢反而是沒有那舉例來說"},{"start":6891.642,"end":6891.882,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6912.128,"end":6929.313,"text":"根中央殺雞取卵因為中央預算合理分配主要是協助地方縮小城鄉差距那人口比較少的城市仍然可以享有跟全國同樣的福利跟建設所以如果用人口來計算的話比率過高那就變相"},{"start":6930.333,"end":6953.438,"text":"鼓勵國人還是往人口稠密的地方靠近這個我們必須神聖考量第二個分配額度如果過大的話沒有謹守財政紀律的誘因簡單來說錢太多會亂花就像我剛剛講的桃園若地方可支配的財源的話增加我們濫發非法定福利預算的話沒有設定牌付條款的話那憑著感覺"},{"start":6956.098,"end":6968.562,"text":"選票考量這勢必會壓縮到下一代所以希望大家能夠理性並以國家整體為考量來一起來討論我們的財法法然後我們該如何調整才不會造成大者恆大"},{"start":6970.703,"end":6988.764,"text":"主席我講完了我也希望主席不要主觀詮釋我剛才講的或加以評論因為我看起來我們前面好幾個委員你都會加以評論主席不是應該是客觀的立場嗎我沒有要你回應所以你也不應該有多說你自己的主觀評論謝謝"},{"start":6992.589,"end":7007.587,"text":"主席是要保持意識中立,不是表示主席不能有自己的意見。我不是AI機器人喔。來,好,謝謝林委員的會議詢問,雖然不知道詢問什麼。來,下一位。欸?林楚英委員在嗎?好,林楚英委員。"},{"start":7016.394,"end":7033.939,"text":"謝謝主席本席大概是這個本會期現在開議之後第一次在這個發言台但是過去4年本席都在財政委員會也跟我們許多這個資深的財政委員們一起來討論有關財政的部分我想財政的部分應該是最沒有藍綠的問題但是他"},{"start":7036.079,"end":7046.604,"text":"在權力的分配也就是錢的分配之外其實事權的分配也非常重要不過在會議詢問之前本席想先做一下說明因為前面剛剛賴氏寶委員有特別提到是說現在民進黨的版本是一個所謂N次的版本我覺得這樣的一個講法是不恰當的因為我必須說除了過去8年蔡英文總統執政之外再往前推這個執政的是馬英九"},{"start":7064.431,"end":7090.103,"text":"前推當然就是陳水扁總統再往前推呢就是李登輝總統我要講的就是其實民進黨、國民黨其實分別都有執政那這個財化法的過程當中馬英九執政的時候他也沒有試圖要來做修正的話那麼現在如果要講這個所謂N次的版本的話那麼國民黨恐怕也在其中所以我認為在這個部分必須要先說明"},{"start":7091.283,"end":7117.555,"text":"另外當然就是有關於委員們提到的這個台南、高雄這個所謂在統籌分配稅款當中都是名列前茅我覺得這個說法當然就是一個錯誤的假訊息我們都知道很多的預算它其實還包含申請型的、競爭型的那麼台北市其實我自己現在也居住在台北市台北市身為首都那麼它當然得天獨厚的它擁有了許多"},{"start":7121.016,"end":7137.883,"text":"在預算上面尤其是公共建設上面的相關的這個所謂大家知道的為了建設首都那麼預算的預注都是比較多的但是其他競爭型的或者是申請型的偏鄉比如包括花蓮"},{"start":7138.963,"end":7165.863,"text":"或者是南部地區或者是中部這些需要建設的地區他就會來做競爭其實這樣放在一起比較其實不合理的我知道台北市有委員所提出來的版本針對首都就要多加3%可是統籌分配稅款大家攀開來一看就知道台北市永遠都是第一名第一名的城市還要多加3%這個合理嗎最後剩下30秒的時間我所要做的會議詢問當然就是"},{"start":7169.525,"end":7195.624,"text":"現在時間來到了10月21號就是剩下兩個月又10天我們114年度的總預算就要截止我們的法定審理的時間但是剛剛提出來的統籌分配稅款的相關的地方財政收支劃分法它急嗎?也許地方上還有許多包括市權隨著"},{"start":7199.813,"end":7212.971,"text":"經費預算的轉移必須要好好來討論的地方政府當你拿到這些錢之後你怎麼處理大家關注的交通建設還有就是社會福利建設的這些預算"},{"start":7213.852,"end":7236.709,"text":"本期要詢問的就是當現在我們還在面臨總預算114年度只剩下兩個月又十天的時間才能審查為什麼現在要來特別去講這個各個縣市包括市權隨著錢的轉移的時候還沒有討論好的時候地方怎麼樣來處理這些因為"},{"start":7241.519,"end":7266.668,"text":"錢而轉移出來要來處理的包括地方預算的建設、教育、社會福利甚至於租屋補貼等等另外本席這個會期在國防外交委員會我們都知道國防非常重要而且他必須由中央來進行統籌所以本席在這裡要詢問的就是時間有限是不是可以先來處理比較緊急的總預算114年度總預算"},{"start":7268.709,"end":7272.439,"text":"然後我們再花多一點的時間來讓各縣市政府針對"},{"start":7275.054,"end":7296.88,"text":"接下來要面對如果總預算地方總結分配稅款有一些挪移的時候我們再把這個修法再做細部的調節跟討論好嗎?謝謝主席謝謝林淳雲委員本席再回答一次就是請執政黨的委員趕快回去跟行政院院長說趕快把依法應該編列的預算趕快編進來編進來就可以趕快的進行審查趕快依法編列預算"},{"start":7304.082,"end":7332.225,"text":"這是剛回答林子芸委員的這個詢問第二個他說那在這個時候我們為什麼要討論這個財劃法呢因為立法委員不是只做眼前的事情還要為國家的長治久安的長遠制度做討論所以這個原因是我們要修這個已經20年沒有修的法令也要為國家的財政制度好好的做一個討論這是今天排這個法案的這個原因好 謝謝接著我們請伍麗華委員做程序發言"},{"start":7342.989,"end":7368.794,"text":"謝謝主席我很高興剛剛聽到您說只要依法編列就可以來審查總預算那我等一下也來說明一下但是我現在要先講財化法我有提案我有修法那這個歷史故事我先跟各位報告一下因為在這個財化法到現在的25年地制法已經修了15次"},{"start":7370.094,"end":7384.525,"text":"那麼對我們原住民來講有一些原來的鄉他們從我們的政府兩都變六都他們也從鄉變成區但是引起嘩然"},{"start":7385.205,"end":7399.161,"text":"因為這個六都的原住民鄉何其無辜他們突然之間失去了公法人地位因此在2014年又再次修改地制法第83條之7結果這一改更不得了為什麼?"},{"start":7404.567,"end":7423.744,"text":"雖然身體已經變成了公法人但是完全沒有財政自治因為我們的地制法呢把原來的修法變成各三地鄉前三年稅客收入的平均數導致他們的稅客收入"},{"start":7424.184,"end":7446.645,"text":"奏降為零。這些年來他們幾乎八成以上都要仰賴政府的補助這也就是為什麼這次財化法大家一直說我們的地方的財政其實是相同的狀況但是我要說我希望大家好能夠一同的來修地質法"},{"start":7447.466,"end":7465.278,"text":"我們還有公債法的問題要不然我覺得原住民只是被拿來當提款機所以這個部分就是呼籲大家朝野希望把過去的這個歷史錯誤能夠一同的來支持修我們的財化法"},{"start":7465.718,"end":7471.543,"text":"第3條把直轄市山地原住民區擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":7489.119,"end":7491.3,"text":"但是我覺得禁法補償這一條是假議題是沒有錢的不值得拿來當提款機的而且我們真的何德何能要因為這個假議題去擋全國的總預算所以我就跟大家說明禁法補償金完全依法"},{"start":7508.587,"end":7524.113,"text":"因為在105年主計總署、主計長在這邊他們就已經發文給原民會用公務預算跟原住民重發基金各辦編列如果有不足的地方回撥但是比較"},{"start":7525.333,"end":7543.136,"text":"我覺得好笑的是竟然我們在禮拜五又跑去說怕基金沒有錢所以呢要來修法基金不會沒有錢主計長在這邊他是特種基金的作業基金我們不應該去把"},{"start":7543.656,"end":7568.325,"text":"剩餘跟短處解釋為基金會破產反而呢要去製造一個枷鎖竟然要去把它去做一個定額的修法比照花東基金那我覺得這個修法是莫名其妙的所以我在這個地方就是拜託說請大家既然我們是依法編列大家可以來討論如果真的依法編列"},{"start":7569.185,"end":7592.122,"text":"趕快推動審查總預算因為這個問題比什麼還嚴重現在我們在炒這個財化法大家都知道因為沒有共識雖然地方的餅做大了但是中央統籌跟一般分配款會減少內閉地方會增加可運用的經費這就是為什麼不是雷大雨小根本是雨大雷大不雨不下雨"},{"start":7596.28,"end":7612.868,"text":"地方政府很清楚知道因為每個地方政府的財政狀況都不一樣很難有一致的意見所以我在這邊還是拜託一下我覺得很多的事情大家好好坐下來討論真理越辯越明希望能夠趕快推動我們的中央總預算謝謝"},{"start":7615.514,"end":7639.728,"text":"謝謝吳立法委員這個已經是第三位委員提到內政部要提出地方制度法的修正第三位執政黨委員還有財政部有聽到吳委員所說的公債法也要一併提出來然後吳委員的意思是6萬塊沒有問題是嗎?絕對沒有問題那你要跟行政院長請他公開講絕對沒有問題左院長說的我們就當然"},{"start":7646.511,"end":7654.458,"text":"總共加起來要6萬對吧,沒問題嗎?那請院長講喔,來好接著我們請這個登記14號的郭國恩委員做程序發言,謝謝"},{"start":7680.058,"end":7705.392,"text":"謝謝主席,主席雖然我不是念中文的,但我叫國文希望國文跟中文對話你都理解好,今天大家都在討論這個財法法我今天必須說啊,那個國民黨的這個黨團的行為啊令人有一點難理解,甚至是錯亂他從財法法的部分在推,可是總預算的時候在擋"},{"start":7706.596,"end":7727.907,"text":"一推一擋,那叫一毛一頓,這叫矛盾的行為。他現在不審總預算,所以在搶修財務法。那個這種矛盾的行為會造成怎麼樣的影響?我直接講結果好了。一來呢,他在破壞體制。二來呢,他在癱瘓中央。可以說如此,"},{"start":7729.059,"end":7748.515,"text":"其實你當說不論是總預算也好或財劃法也好跟這個體制預算結結相關也牽扯到中央跟地方政府但是提到的是說剛剛一直在提說我們財劃法要推是為了地方國民黨黨團如果真的為了地方的話那我覺得首先要通過的應該是總預算"},{"start":7751.2,"end":7769.401,"text":"總預算如果沒有通過的話那麼我們只能用到的所有的一般的預算不過是法定需要支出的人事預算的部分不過是七八成之多而已而兩成多之多高達九千億左右的整個新興預算根本無法動用"},{"start":7770.422,"end":7793.403,"text":"這些信息預算是誰要的?多半多碼是地方政府一直想要期待的社福預算、基礎預算、治理預算還有包括軌道運輸等等預算。如果國民黨對地方政府是如此的心疼的話,那應該趕快通過總預算才對啊。"},{"start":7794.344,"end":7813.77,"text":"所以這個地方牽扯到總預算另外一個部分牽扯到的那也是地方政府相關的地方如果說是地方政府你看到這幾年來從地方政府財劃法你要把它下放多少說下放5777億"},{"start":7817.458,"end":7820.922,"text":"但是最近國民黨的版本又變成3208億,足足少了55%為什麼還會多出一個3208億的版本跟5777億的版本呢?那不就證明說它當初5777億的版本是一個很大的錯誤嗎?"},{"start":7838.544,"end":7851.775,"text":"不只打對折勒還打四、五折你不覺得這太誇張嗎很顯然國民黨當初的版本就是草率修法嘛不正自明否則的話為什麼至於還要修成3208億為什麼還要趨近民眾黨的2700億"},{"start":7857.882,"end":7882.321,"text":"這都沒有聽到任何的說明只有說他降價、修法這很奇怪嘛另外一個部分呢我必須說這個問題從事權主席不要那麼早站起來嘛你不是要讓大家暢所欲言嗎我好不容易等到十幾位等到十四位就讓其他的同事都先講我好不容易你這樣打我會有壓力啦你請坐請坐你想從事權"},{"start":7886.204,"end":7903.22,"text":"跟財權本身基本上就有衝突面如果今天地方政府的財政問題只是透過一個垂直分別就可以解決的話那實在太容易了嘛可是問題是這樣子嗎?有這麼簡單嗎?所有在修財法的過程當中大家要健全的是什麼?"},{"start":7909.145,"end":7911.648,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7929.678,"end":7942.41,"text":"剛剛吳委員就說得很好啊這不是單一的法案的問題牽扯到地方政府財政他還有牽扯到地方制度法還有牽扯到公債法為什麼要特別講公債法"},{"start":7944.214,"end":7965.549,"text":"過去中央政府就有心的想要把公債法的信用卡給地方更多的一個信用空間簡單的講是讓他更多的取債空間更多的取債空間只是讓地方政府的財政更陷入泥沼而已啊這就是公債法需要修的地方地方制度法為什麼要修?"},{"start":7966.792,"end":7981.409,"text":"因為中央跟地方啊一些選擇劃分不清楚啊過去地方政府常常抱怨就是說為什麼這明明是中央要做的事情為什麼把這個責任下放給地方而前面有一道位所有在地方政府待過的都是這種心情"},{"start":7982.885,"end":8011.41,"text":"這也就是為什麼說夥伴關係沒有建立的原因嘛這也就是為什麼地方制度法需要修的原因嘛剛剛吳委員講說地方制度法修了15次但是我必須修那都是微調的修真正兩個法同步修的實在1999年的時候同步修嚴格來說不論是地制法也好財法法也好都是經過了25年沒有進行一個同步的大規模的修改來建構一個中央跟地方的夥伴關係"},{"start":8012.45,"end":8041.285,"text":"所以地方制度法當然重要啊所以公債法當然關鍵啊還有一個地方稅法通則所以說我們到底是修法的目的是把錢給地方而已嗎而破壞了整個體制嗎我必須說啊你破壞了體制你真的對地方好嗎地方的錢拿去用在哪裡更不曉得可是中央沒有辦法執行整體的預算的時候去給地方做一個整體的改變的時候那你怎麼辦"},{"start":8042.523,"end":8064.374,"text":"你怎麼辦?這是破壞整個體制嘛!結果也是癱瘓中央的結果嘛!主席你再坐一下,我再講一分鐘,我用我國文程度來講。我陪你站一下,我們尊重後面的人。所以那個關鍵點在哪裡?關鍵點對地方結果也沒有好。你是破壞了整個政黨的體制、整個政府的體制。你破壞了整個政府的體制。所以說這個修法基本上啊,"},{"start":8065.394,"end":8091.103,"text":"對地方也不好對中央也不好否則的話你不會貿然的提出一個577億版本馬上又降強成3208億版本一下子降了55% 砍了55%下一次你提出來的修法是不是要變成那個民眾黨版本變成2700或2200降價大求售我覺得這個裡頭要思考清楚但是陳村委員你剛剛提到說財務好要修"},{"start":8092.219,"end":8110.97,"text":"本席啊老走又踢過了財化法修法有它的正當性但怎麼修有它的意義你看我們經過了兩次公聽會你主持一次上次那個那個羅明才委員主持一次但是那都是從財權的角度不是從事權的角度"},{"start":8111.55,"end":8135.889,"text":"我必須說下次我真的建立代委員從私權的角度來思考財化法的修改方式目標是建構中央跟地方政府的夥伴關係而不是只是想把錢拿給地方而已你拿錢給地方而已你以後我跟你講講白一點換成你國民黨將來如果有機會執政的話搞不好你還要再修法一次我講白一點除非你要做萬年的地方黨"},{"start":8137.783,"end":8153.553,"text":"這體制不能破壞啊這體制破壞啊會形成大家的共業啊毀了這個體制之後癱瘓了中央之後對家當沒好處中央也沒拿到中央也地方也沒拿到中央也沒有辦法運作希望我的國問程度中文系的主席能夠聽得懂"},{"start":8155.412,"end":8180.101,"text":"謝謝郭國文委員剛剛這已經是第4位委員提到地方支出法要修正請內政部一定要記得趕快提出地方支出法相關的修正還有財政部有關公債法還有地方受法通則也趕快提出相對應的版本不要像財化法一樣沒有提出來其實我一直在聽到郭委員講說破壞體制不是好事我聽了很遺憾"},{"start":8182.342,"end":8209.424,"text":"國民黨就是推翻了清朝的帝制破壞了體制才建立了亞洲第一個民主共和國民進黨就是破壞了這個威權的體制才建立了我國的政黨輪替所以破壞體制是國家進步的象徵破壞體制是好事國家要進步民主進黨如果不想進步不想破壞體制我是很遺憾啦因為我一直覺得民主進黨是一個進步的政黨可見你們已經放棄進步的理念了接著我們請羅明才委員"},{"start":8210.58,"end":8227.522,"text":"你說破壞體制是壞事啊清朝地制被破壞威權體制破壞國家才進步啊才進入民主共和國才進入政黨輪替啊主席各位委員大家好主席你的發言啊"},{"start":8228.43,"end":8247.13,"text":"令本人感到深深的佩服其實我們在想的就是民眾第一嘛所以環境、時代一直在改變我們怎麼樣修一個與時俱進的法來符合大家的期待這是最重要的那我想"},{"start":8247.871,"end":8250.935,"text":"財政劃分法在財委會我們有多次的討論那主席他是比較客氣一點的後來的話其實今天本來就應該要主條啦但是廣納民意讓大家多多討論也是可以啦"},{"start":8265.351,"end":8280.951,"text":"對主席的做法給予熱烈掌聲鼓勵他很勇敢而且體恤大下的需求我們看到財劃法很多不分黨派"},{"start":8281.926,"end":8295.42,"text":"包括本院委員賴瑞榮16個人不是一個人都有提出當然林思銘、許宇甄還有特別提到的吳立華有17個人"},{"start":8297.236,"end":8315.089,"text":"也都有提出財化法的這個修正以及賴委員張家俊等等還有蔡義渝、蔡委員等16個人提出一個修正的一個草案那還有"},{"start":8318.893,"end":8340.901,"text":"這個林總統這一整本包括陳超明等等表示我們來自地方的確有這樣的一個需求像本席來自新北我們有400多萬的人口但是每一次講到錢的問題中央的思維就是集權、集錢"},{"start":8342.574,"end":8352.685,"text":"所以我們必須要來把這個事情喔充分來討論一下究竟對地方的補助是誰說了算如果你把這個帳一摻開來"},{"start":8354.81,"end":8380.739,"text":"那到底誰說了算呢?把所有的權集中在一個人、兩個人的身上這適合嗎?請問中華民國是人民的國家吧?中華民國是應該要以民為主嘛怎麼會變成這個封建的思想全部要集權又集錢呢?所以多次在這邊討論我們就希望這樣有一個公平的對待"},{"start":8381.979,"end":8400.591,"text":"新北有400萬人那應該要跟台北市一樣什麼地方有問題要拿出來啊所以我們在上一個會期啊已經在財委會也通過財政部必須要勇敢的面對要提出自己的版本來"},{"start":8401.889,"end":8410.705,"text":"我想曾經不怕火燒啊你就把你的規定、你的公平性、你的可行性"},{"start":8411.84,"end":8431.334,"text":"不敢說百分之百但是你要找出一個至少百分之八十、九十大家都可以認可的所以因為這是一個平均的一個概念嘛每一個人不論是在窮鄉僻壤的地方或者大都市的地方應該要有他起碼的公平的對待"},{"start":8432.535,"end":8453.474,"text":"所以我覺得主席這個做法很令人欽佩發揮了金門人的努力奮戰的精神不惜挑燈夜戰那我們當然也是樂意一起來關心一起來找到一個好的方法"},{"start":8454.485,"end":8471.477,"text":"那最重要的就是讓財政部知道你們錢不能全部集中啊然後跟你比較好的你們標準到底在哪裡我們搞不清楚啊每一次開會的時候過去大概主計長啊或者財政部長"},{"start":8472.247,"end":8496.894,"text":"大家看到都把他捧得高高的其實這個時代已經不一樣了嘛應該要以民為主讓所有的人民知道他的權利究竟是在哪裡像我們新北長期以來跟其他地區跟高雄其他地區比起來落後非常多在這個錢的補助方面所以我們希望說"},{"start":8498.598,"end":8526.094,"text":"新北有那麼多的人口熬熬待補我們包括很多的捷運包括有很多的教育的補助義教、義消、醫院、醫療等等的補助我們都需要中央大力的支持能把你的公事讓我們知道也讓地方他知道如何來編列而不是每次都是"},{"start":8527.365,"end":8550.114,"text":"帶著一個關愛的眼神,拜託拜託中央多給一點,這個不是啦,這不好啦所以次長在這邊,部長常常在講說中央跟地方的關係是夥伴的關係既然是夥伴的關係,那你要清楚讓我們知道地方的努力可以得到什麼樣的補助"},{"start":8551.495,"end":8572.437,"text":"讓所有的民眾知道他的權利應該是在哪裡不然的話我看長期這樣下來平者越平、富者越富這個整個失衡的情況讓我們覺得真的必須要面對這個問題25年沒修了再不修什麼時候修那大家有提到說總預算的問題"},{"start":8574.116,"end":8599.813,"text":"其實可以雙軌並行只要拿出誠意有什麼東西不能修的呢只要站在民眾的立場大家好好來思考找到一個最好的方式如果真的不滿意至少可以比現在目前好吧現在大家都充滿了很多的猜忌充滿著不安然後希望我能多一點或者是說大家會覺得為什麼"},{"start":8602.254,"end":8603.195,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8612.765,"end":8632.609,"text":"高雄市也好,台南市也好,很多地方大家都希望來面對這個問題。包括我們現場有很多的委員,以後可能也會回去選縣市長。我這樣看過去的好幾個,當然是希望說能爭取的,多爭取一點。下面好幾個也都是有機會啊。"},{"start":8637.195,"end":8654.089,"text":"沒有什麼利益迴避的問題這是把整個制度建立起來長長久久這樣子大家才有一個依循所以希望主席繼續努力繼續加油我們會奉陪 謝謝謝謝羅明才委員接著我們請林德福委員做程序發言"},{"start":8674.369,"end":8688.561,"text":"謝謝,謝謝主席。我想今天財政部這個阮次長包括所有的官員還有我們很多委員對財劃法大家都非常的關心。首先我講財劃法有經過這個三任總統、政黨輪替,一共25年都沒有修正。"},{"start":8698.511,"end":8713.289,"text":"財委會要財政部在本會期開始的時候要提出草案來結果到現在都還沒有看到行政院提出的修正案甚至於行政院卓院長"},{"start":8715.61,"end":8737.716,"text":"這個還在院會表示說現行法規的運作與地方配合的很好那請問如果現行法規和地方配合的很好那為什麼代表全國民意過半的國民黨民眾黨甚至於包括民進黨的立法委員都需要他們都提出版本"},{"start":8738.857,"end":8747.034,"text":"就拿有最高性、原則性以及固定性的法律位階最高的憲法"},{"start":8748.868,"end":8772.096,"text":"都能夠應時來質疑應地來質疑來提出修法那我請問為什麼對於有修法必要的財劃法財政部卻好像無能為力一樣難道財劃法的法律位階比憲法的位階還要高嗎其實大家都知道經過了25年"},{"start":8775.352,"end":8797.604,"text":"這個中央政府跟地方政府的組織啊的變革就差了非常的多那現行財劃法真的像卓院長所說的運作配合的非常的良好嗎如果真的很好那城鄉差距應該會縮小"},{"start":8801.408,"end":8809.363,"text":"這個賴總統在10多年前當台南市市長的時候也應該是不會出現南北的一個差距"},{"start":8811.559,"end":8833.859,"text":"讓他卑微地向行政院來抗議,強烈要求修財劃法。在10多年前,因為賴總統他有向行政院抗議,強烈地要求來修財劃法。更不會讓台灣的東部、西部出現嚴重失衡的發展狀況。"},{"start":8836.019,"end":8862.644,"text":"那我請問財政部各位長官摸摸你們的良心想一想修法難道真的沒有急迫性和必要性嗎?藍市長你跟財政部所有官員應該要好好的去思考最後在25年前精神財化法修法後中央政府淨收入暴增縣市政府卻經常"},{"start":8866.232,"end":8894.577,"text":"經常是財政困擾、困窘向中央來喊話那本席一直認為說財政部把修法的責任歸咎地方分配的比例喬不容因為在這裡其實我們修過幾次那以喬不容修法必須要從長計議甚至於影射立委提案是倉促立法"},{"start":8896.596,"end":8922.79,"text":"再再來凸顯行政權專斷和傲慢本席是強調修法不應該再拖下去千萬不要讓財化法這個整個修法變成了一個天荒夜談以上我都在時間裡面來講話完畢謝謝謝謝林德福委員接著我們請鄭天才委員做會議詢問"},{"start":8925.158,"end":8928.68,"text":"主席、各位委員本席也有提出財政收支劃分法的修正今天因為好幾位民眾黨的委員一直提到總預算"},{"start":8952.966,"end":8975.853,"text":"這個總預算為什麼會因為造成就是因為行政院沒有依法行政對人民而言依法行政是最基本的要求對現在現在對原住民族而言變成是一個最卑微的訴求"},{"start":8977.878,"end":9004.931,"text":"我先說禁法補償條例,原住民保育地禁法補償條例的修正當初提6萬的,大家聽好哈大家聽好當初提6萬的總共有32位民進黨的委員提案32位國民黨盧憲一的提案只有19人"},{"start":9007.608,"end":9028.105,"text":"只有19人所以立法院所通過的法例行政院沒有提復議沒有依憲法的職權提復議就表示沒有自愛難行也經過賴清德總統公佈施行這個就是法律"},{"start":9038.723,"end":9060.994,"text":"人民要求政府依法行政是最基本的訴求現在變成原住民族最卑微的訴求依法行政好 我們接下來看我們原住民族禁法補償條例是105年公佈施行、104年立法院三讀通過"},{"start":9068.786,"end":9091.972,"text":"民國82年本席在台灣省政府服務的時候就定了禁法補償的要點82年喔前幾天柯建民總召在黨團協商的時候他也提到82年就有了當時是多少兩萬塊82年到現在三十幾年了"},{"start":9098.819,"end":9125.078,"text":"6萬塊算多嗎?按照物價指數而且是經過民進黨的立委的提案32人竟然行政院可以不依法行政不依法編列好,我們看今年的預算書今年的預算書人民會的單位預算、公務預算"},{"start":9126.307,"end":9151.883,"text":"編了28億多作為進法補償撥到綜合發展基金綜合發展基金一塊錢都沒有支印跟112年以前不一樣113年也只有公務預算撥到綜合發展基金綜合發展基金也沒有支印一塊錢都沒有而這一次"},{"start":9153.257,"end":9178.246,"text":"公務預算撥到綜合發展基金28億多再扣了一千多萬的作為做其他的費用只剩下27億作為進法補償,所以少了14億綜合發展基金是誰送來的?是行政院送到立法院的"},{"start":9179.431,"end":9187.913,"text":"那為什麽呢?我們卓榮泰院長一再在立法院喔!立法院的答詢說他只願意4萬塊!綜合發展基金也沒有編啊!如何去從綜合發展基金去支應呢?所以,而且,支應原住民族綜合發展基金是違法的!"},{"start":9207.895,"end":9222.647,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金的收支管理應用辦法的法源是原住民族基本法第18條。第18條是作為原住民族經濟發展的業務。所以作為貸款、經濟貸款、微型貸款等等。"},{"start":9231.721,"end":9261.124,"text":"而且按照行政院送來的原住民族綜合發展基金的預算書明確規定預算書明確規定本基金系預算法第4條第二項第二款第4目所定預算法第4條第二項第二款第4目所定凡付出仍可收回"},{"start":9262.785,"end":9290.302,"text":"什麼叫凡付出仍可收回呢?比如說貸款,經濟貸款,付出期之後可以收回本金,還有加上利息。禁法補償是付出期是收不回來的。所以用綜合發展基金是違反了原住民族基本法,也違反了預算法。"},{"start":9291.212,"end":9292.732,"text":"政府怎麼可以帶頭違法呢?"},{"start":9292.732,"end":9295.593,"text":"政府怎麼可以帶頭違法呢?帶頭違法多久了呢?"},{"start":9295.593,"end":9302.434,"text":"帶頭違法多久了呢?現在已經被挪用了53億多啊!"},{"start":9302.434,"end":9310.616,"text":"現在已經被挪用了53億多啊!被違法挪用原住民族諸葛發展基金作為禁法補償已經53億多了 所以跟大家報告"},{"start":9319.558,"end":9347.782,"text":"馬英九執政的最後一年所編的一百零五年度的預算一百零五年度的結算原住民族綜合發展基金一百零五年度的結算綜合發展基金淨值一百一十七億七千零八十一萬一千元一百一十七億七千零八十一萬一千元"},{"start":9349.322,"end":9373.596,"text":"當時的禁止是這樣一百一十二年度的結算累積短處一百一十二年度的結算累積短處六十三億啊累積短處六十三億財源不足六十三億啊好好看預算書啊"},{"start":9375.936,"end":9400.479,"text":"114年度行政院送來的一級數一級數多少?累積短處67億多所以高精素美委員跟本席提出原住民族基本法第18條要補回來啊這是轉型正義啊違法挪用的要補回來啊"},{"start":9401.926,"end":9414.071,"text":"這是轉型爭議,我的時間還沒到違法挪用的要轉型爭議這是原住民族最卑微的所以這是要返還的這是返還,我們沒有增加我們不是增加原住民族發展基金我們是要你們返回來啊"},{"start":9426.958,"end":9452.764,"text":"在這邊特別特別的我本來不想發言啦因為今天一直談總預算所以我不得不把我是30年的公務員預算書清清楚楚從無到有盡罰補償從無到有所有的法律都是經過我的手上的在這邊特別拜託大家以上好謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝"},{"start":9455.346,"end":9458.759,"text":"可以簽名,等一下有立法院時間接著我們請許曉欣委員做會議詢問"},{"start":9476.438,"end":9489.645,"text":"那個吳委員不好意思吳立法委員、高金委員請觀眾許曉欣委員大家有意見可以來簽名我會讓大家暢所欲言你們可以上來發言請簽名吳立法委員跟高金素梅委員都有發言的時間"},{"start":9508.929,"end":9535.849,"text":"好。讓他們講2分鐘。小新請等一下。許小問題。好。你安靜。你安靜。好。我知道大家都很認真爭取原住民的預算吼。接著我們請曲小新委員發言。胡委員你剛剛已經發言過了。等一下請坐。好。你可以找內政委員發言。尊重我們一下好不好。好。也可以回。好了啦。"},{"start":9538.376,"end":9542.639,"text":"你等下可以上來講喔,委員沒有你發言的時間喔。接下來請許曉欣委員做會議新聞。"},{"start":9567.395,"end":9572.537,"text":"現在這個預算還在協商當中我們不管是上個禮拜、這個禮拜、下個禮拜都還在進行協商那協商結束之後自然就會進入到審查的階段那這有什麼好視為不審或是擋或是刪除的呢要求行政院對於三讀通過的法案負責對農民、原住民、醫護人員多加照顧這不就是我們本來立法委員應該要"},{"start":9595.507,"end":9605.873,"text":"要做的監督職責嗎再來我覺得很奇怪啊立法委員是怎麼回事啊我們只能一次做一件事情嗎我們是這麼沒有能力的一群人嗎我們沒有預算在審查的時候我們就不能修法那修法的時候就不能審預算不是啊 這兩個事情是可以並進的啊"},{"start":9616.198,"end":9623.807,"text":"有一大群人他們正在為了整個預算正在協商,與此同時我們審查財政收支劃分收支法怎麼了嗎?沒有什麼啊!預算歸預算、法案歸法案兩者併進到底有什麼不行?還是說現在有些委員覺得整個預算就是沒有辦法進來了,今年就是不會省了?"},{"start":9635.76,"end":9652.193,"text":"對自己這麼沒有信心嗎?我倒是對民眾黨很有信心啊我覺得總預算最後是一定會審的我們也很期待接下來的審查只不過現在還在協商階段而已就有必要這麼急嗎?反而是反案很急啊為什麼?因為"},{"start":9653.394,"end":9661.017,"text":"法案的部分討論這麼多年了財化法既然已經討論這麼多年那讓它繼續討論下去是延續過去討論的基礎那能不討論嗎既然過去把它視為一個這麼重要的議題那現在難道就不重要了嗎所以我覺得預算總預算歸總預算那裡正在協商不要去打擾人家但是不等同於我們現在的財政收支劃分法不能去做審查這是兩件不同的事情"},{"start":9681.603,"end":9686.085,"text":"再來我要特別講因為為什麼要審查這個財政收支劃分法因為只依靠補助會有更不公平的問題它沒有辦法形成一個制度比方說114年的預算中央預支的部分如果我們把六都來比較統籌補助款、統籌分配款加上補助款高雄市拿到多少?"},{"start":9704.975,"end":9710.28,"text":"1229億台北市是多少呢?861億兩者相差了370億如果我們只看補助的收入的部分不看統籌分配款的話台北市只拿到了163億高雄拿到了708億"},{"start":9725.054,"end":9741.21,"text":"同樣都是直轄市卻差這麼多所以要補助來替代統籌分配款變成是中央政府喜歡給誰多少錢就給多少錢這對各縣市來說都是不公平的為什麼我們不把它法制化、制度化讓這個法律能夠公平"},{"start":9743.012,"end":9770.005,"text":"公平的按照法律規則去分配給不同的縣市而不是只依賴於每年好像我們都要把行政院當皇帝看然後呢各縣市政府要像把他當皇帝一樣希望他們來施捨我們一點預算變成呢今天我中央說喜歡你這個縣市我就多給你一點錢多補助你一點不喜歡你那些縣市呢我就少給你一點錢我覺得這是不對的所以應該要回到財政收支劃分法裡面"},{"start":9771.105,"end":9792.748,"text":"讓法律取代這些補助讓它回到正軌我覺得這對於各縣市的鼓勵財政努力還有共享招商成果才是最好最有辦法最符合法規的方式所以在此再一次跟大家建議是財政收支劃分法要繼續快速努力的審議召集不同各"},{"start":9793.809,"end":9810.027,"text":"現世的意見不同的版本大家一起坐下來好好談這個跟總預算沒有太大的關係持續的討論才能有更好的財政收支劃分法謝謝謝謝我們許小新委員的會議詢問了好現在主席宣布喔"},{"start":9810.948,"end":9826.479,"text":"我們要先休息喔那休息10分鐘讓官員也休息一下然後休息回來以後我們進行廣泛討論的時候剛有登記了然後就會讓官員上來跟大家一起討論好我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":10455.706,"end":10483.726,"text":"我們現在繼續開會我們現在進行廣泛討論如剛剛所說的這個發言的本會委員每一位8加2分鐘啦非本會委員就是列席委員就是5分鐘然後這個廣泛討論的時候我們可以請這個我們部會首長來回答剛程序已經我剛綜合剛的程序發言會請問應該都沒有什麼疑問這個程序OK好那我們接著請登記第一號的這個林德鋭委員"},{"start":10490.941,"end":10496.024,"text":"謝謝主席是不是我們請卵次長請財政部卵次長次長你好"},{"start":10507.711,"end":10523.528,"text":"我請教因為莊部長當然去參加APEC由你來代理那財務法也經過三任的總統那也經過各政黨的輪替那25年來都沒有修正"},{"start":10524.749,"end":10544.994,"text":"財委會其實也有要財政部在本會期開始的時候事前就要提出來他的草案結果到現在看不到行政院提出他修正的版本甚至於這個卓院長還在院會表示說現行法規的運作跟地方配合的很好"},{"start":10546.534,"end":10560.16,"text":"那我要請教這個阮次長如果現行法規和地方配合得很好為什麼我們今天有很多委員不管藍綠都有提出這個版本來"},{"start":10565.617,"end":10587.202,"text":"這個哪有最高性、原則性、固定性的這些法律位階最高的憲法都能夠因時制宜、因地制宜來提出修法那我請問為什麼對於有必要修法的財劃法財政部好像若無其事啊這個也無能為力一樣到底那個次長這是"},{"start":10589.703,"end":10612.931,"text":"莊部長的意思還是卓院長的意思還是賴總統的意思你認為有沒有必要在我們今天整個大體討論你來說清楚講明白我跟委員報告我們財政部的立場很清楚我們希望能夠建立一個就是長治久安的一個財化法的一個"},{"start":10613.131,"end":10640.586,"text":"就是因為要建立長治久安所以說需要修啊所以我們希望能夠兼顧地方的需求也能夠兼顧中央的財政的潤性所以我們希望能夠達到一個雙贏那事實上財劃法的確在過去也提過5次的修正案在大院審查的時候一直都沒有獲得共識這大家都很清楚那即使是這樣我們財政部也是積極在努力那我們近期也召開兩次的會議"},{"start":10641.767,"end":10664.437,"text":"兩次會議呢,那就相關的地方政府提出了這相關的一些指標80個指標呢,我們就不斷的去協調溝通那現在呢,那些指標已經慢慢在縮減縮減,現在只剩下權重還有比如像這個像污染防治啦,或者再生能源,或者是說稅出那部分要不要納入考量"},{"start":10665.177,"end":10678.694,"text":"這一部分還要再研議所以我們一直都希望能夠把那個共識大家能夠建立起來你認為那個群眾那個比值以目前來看"},{"start":10680.151,"end":10701.688,"text":"大致上是多少最適當?權重是每一個指標都有他的權重。比如說像台北市,台北市因為目前的分配是包括盈利事業所得額,所以他盈利事業占比達到34%,所以當然他希望盈利事業所得額的權重高一點。"},{"start":10702.409,"end":10729.582,"text":"但是對農業縣市來講因爲他盈利世界所得稅相對比較低所以他希望權重就低一點所以這一部分還要再溝通希望能夠找到一個平衡點藍市長其實財委會過去其實我參加過就是我們財務法裡面修法那麼多次的會議主要那時候很多縣市的財政局局長"},{"start":10730.723,"end":10755.808,"text":"他們那時候都站在自己地方的本位立場來看但是其實經過溝通協調其實大致上很多縣市的這些局長他們經過這些次的商討研究其實也差不多大家幾乎都有共識那我認為說站在中央的立場你不要這個"},{"start":10757.768,"end":10776.079,"text":"等於是有權又有錢應該要分配給各縣市讓他自己去發展這樣整個尤其地方跟都會區裡面比較偏鄉跟都會區裡面才會均衡的發展那個次長你有什麼看法"},{"start":10776.679,"end":10805.498,"text":"其實我跟委員報告現在就是說中央跟地方的財源的分配就實質上可以用的財源我們用114年度的預算來看大概中央佔比大概62%那地方大概38%但是相對來講我們的支出是達到這個是64比36換句話說就在這種情況之下其實地方的情況是比中央要好"},{"start":10806.939,"end":10832.054,"text":"所以我們過去我們就是在這個無論是補助款也好、統籌分配稅款也好、或計劃型補助款也好,我們都不斷的增加嘛。所以在114年我們已經增加到1兆151億。所以這是一個很大的數字。其實阮次長這幾年我們都知道稅收是超徵。"},{"start":10833.815,"end":10834.436,"text":"財政收支劃分"},{"start":10855.513,"end":10875.592,"text":"這個空、這個缺是補不滿的啦。你再怎麼補都補不滿,因為你會合以後那個幾乎你用的綠電、光電、所有這些幾乎年年都有虧損,而且虧損年年都要補它,沒有補它馬上就漲價。"},{"start":10877.954,"end":10898.917,"text":"所以說錯誤的政策真的比貪污一百倍可怕其實大家都知道經過25年來中央政府跟地方政府的組織的變革就差了很多現行財劃法真的像卓院長所說的還是配合的很良好嗎?如果真的那成相的差距為什麼不會縮小?"},{"start":10900.818,"end":10924.151,"text":"其實賴總統在10多年前當台南市長的時候也應該是不會出現在南北的差距讓他卑微地向行政院來抗議那強烈地要求修財劃法更不會讓台灣的東部跟西部出現嚴重私人的這個發展的這種狀況那個市長你有什麼看法"},{"start":10924.782,"end":10951.837,"text":"跟委員報告就是說剛才委員提到就是說我們的時間數一直都超過預算數但是我跟委員報告就是那是總預算如果你把特別預算考慮進去的話從101年到114年這個十幾年當中我們只有3年有一點點剩餘其他全部都是次之那即使在這種情況之下中央也盡量來支援地方"},{"start":10952.657,"end":10958.663,"text":"所以我們看到地方這幾年從101年來看100年到114年同一個期間來看的話地方的財政從101年的那時候的次數是580幾億但是到114年就他剩餘達到648億"},{"start":10972.757,"end":10993.318,"text":"所以現在目前來講地方的財政其實是我認為是以我長期在做財政工作地方目前整體財政是比中央還要更穩健所以現在要處理的不是不足的問題現在要處理的是什麼呢是這個分配的問題分配喔分配的問題是水平的問題所以說齁那個次長"},{"start":10994.7,"end":11008.214,"text":"在25年前精神財化法修法後中央政府競收入暴增那縣市政府卻經常因為這個財政的困窘向中央喊話本期是認為說財政部修法"},{"start":11010.096,"end":11027.851,"text":"責任歸咎地方分配比例、喬布隆、修法必須要從長期、甚至於引設立委提案、自倉促的修法等等。其實我認為這個應該大家要放下來就是好好的研究"},{"start":11028.973,"end":11044.712,"text":"然後如何做是最適當然後這樣去修不要說把好像修財化法變成就是好像未來修了以後會變成這個好像這個中央"},{"start":11046.354,"end":11068.527,"text":"有草案法以後就造成修了以後就造成中央這個以後財政的這個困擾等等我認為應該好好的探討我完全贊同委的意見就基本上就是說中央跟地方其實是夥伴關係對啊是夥伴要合作啊所以我是說大家就是各退一步大家找一個合理的"},{"start":11069.187,"end":11082.113,"text":"一個就是解決的方案一個折衷點然後認為說合理大家能夠接受就比較容易達到最後的共識我是不希望說當然因為其實財政紀律齁"},{"start":11084.728,"end":11111.81,"text":"認為應該要好好的把它做好那中央地方是夥伴關係啊不是說今天齁這個大家為了爭這個然後搞出很多其他政治的問題我認為那個大可不必我們針對問題然後探討如何去做如何解決是大家能夠接受我剛剛陳如我說中央地方是夥伴關係我們需要把事情做好讓老百姓有感受這是最重要好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":11114.903,"end":11117.608,"text":"謝謝林德福委員謝謝接著我們請蔡易維委員"},{"start":11127.11,"end":11144.722,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我先沒有要請我們部會啦因為我想再跟主席我們是不是確認一下就是說主席這講的暢所欲言這四個字那代表的意義是不是我們等一下今天廣泛討論嘛那我們廣泛討論我認為說現在財化法有一個很大的問題"},{"start":11149.861,"end":11167.296,"text":"就是說我們在談水平分配的時候事實上剛剛已經有多位立委包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法那甚至還有所謂的一些屬於稅法的一個部分所以它牽涉的層面是很多我包括說"},{"start":11168.397,"end":11174.125,"text":"我自己有一個版本嘛我的版本是跟國土計畫有點做聯動就是說我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到因為農地農用那農地農用勢必他會壓縮到地方他未來可以發展的一個空間"},{"start":11184.458,"end":11206.064,"text":"那在這個發展的一個空間被壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少"},{"start":11207.182,"end":11230.422,"text":"到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把"},{"start":11231.122,"end":11259.224,"text":"國土計畫的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你"},{"start":11260.336,"end":11276.123,"text":"沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科與行政機關下有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講"},{"start":11277.304,"end":11297.42,"text":"然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來"},{"start":11298.881,"end":11305.947,"text":"那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個你這樣說財政收支劃分法為什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問對農業部嘛所以這個我認為這是一個大學問我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去"},{"start":11326.883,"end":11333.105,"text":"這個在經省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在經省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作這一些屬於業務範圍的也都把它拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給它更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這一些事權也應該要下放"},{"start":11352.469,"end":11370.148,"text":"那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼老農津貼過去的戰刑條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老農津貼再加上這一個"},{"start":11372.29,"end":11392.795,"text":"衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話"},{"start":11393.635,"end":11412.615,"text":"是不是老農今天暫停條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言"},{"start":11413.856,"end":11421.242,"text":"我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我覺得主席看之類的不行,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛討論會問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊。所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的。"},{"start":11436.092,"end":11457.458,"text":"條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會兒會廣泛討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。"},{"start":11458.328,"end":11466.651,"text":"沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎?不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言我現在放棄我的發言,我就...我剛才給他放棄了我...我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還在...如果其他...有意見喔?"},{"start":11482.416,"end":11486.278,"text":"財政部各部會官要注意喔,如果下午有什麼會議的話,晚上有什麼會議的話,記得要排開喔,要準備晚餐喔,來沒問題喔,來,然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的"},{"start":11510.266,"end":11519.731,"text":"問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題好沒問題齁所以我們就是等一下往還是要會會會會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點齁沒關係好OKOK阿我們就這樣說好了好好謝謝阿你可以了齁好謝謝可以請我讀完程序發言就讓我掛他們沒有那是程序發言嘛我剛剛有一點被狂的感覺沒問題沒問題"},{"start":11530.797,"end":11546.491,"text":"沒問題喔 不會 不會 不會 不會各位給我挑燈夜戰的心理準備來然後接著這個剛剛蔡委員所提到的環境部喔下回我們一定要 有邀請今天有來你下次發言也可以請他們上來詢問還有面證部也有來可以詢問啦下次我們一定要邀請農業部過來齁這個"},{"start":11549.814,"end":11573.377,"text":"財政部要記得今天開名單你們沒有邀請農業部還有內政部的官員至少是次長、部長其他部位有來的部會聽到相關的委員都有提出包括內政部來的官員未接的問題當然環境部還有農業部財政部要記得我們下次邀請一定要發一定要邀請這個單位還有哪個部會呢?"},{"start":11575.027,"end":11591.406,"text":"好、沒關係、好、OK、好那地方制度法、內政部財政部的公佔法跟地方制度法都要趕快提出來喔不要這個身為執政的這個效率這麼差我們要牽頭往前行喔接著我們請登記3號李坤澄委員謝謝"},{"start":11601.434,"end":11606.117,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個財政部這個阮次長還有主計處陳主計長阮次長、陳主計長有請委員好好謝謝這個我還是要重申"},{"start":11621.683,"end":11637.623,"text":"這個我們現在應該要來審這個明年度的114年的這個總運算了那結果我們還是在這邊討論財化法要怎麼弄那我剛剛也用了一個比喻啦這個很多的這個地方政府這個明年"},{"start":11638.664,"end":11663.435,"text":"明天的飯米飯在哪裡都還不知道然後呢這個我們在野黨的許諾就是說只要採訪法通過了未來一定有三針海味明天就不知道可以吃飽沒有你就說我們之後一定會有三針海味給大家這對於很多這個地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的所以我還是希望重申第一個"},{"start":11664.455,"end":11692.812,"text":"既然這個錢跟權要一併來討論我沒有講說內政部來的人層次太低那些都是主席在講的我是說希望未來在討論這個事權的時候地方制度法非常重要所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來因為這個是跟地方制度法跟財務法是相關的不是只有修我們財務法然後這個地方制度法都沒有在修這個"},{"start":11694.194,"end":11695.762,"text":"注釋,有沒有聽到"},{"start":11698.015,"end":11698.815,"text":"我們已經聽過很多意見,專家學的意見我們聽很多"},{"start":11724.74,"end":11725,"text":"市長、主席長"},{"start":11743.167,"end":11761.317,"text":"這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的這個稅率會大幅減少大概4080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應"},{"start":11762.618,"end":11789.863,"text":"那如果說這個政委黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健寶還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎"},{"start":11791.634,"end":11810.48,"text":"現在是由中央來負擔對好那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修修到這個4000多月都讓這個中央這個都讓地方政府拿去用了那未來呢屬於中央的部分那剛我提到說這個這個健保的部分啊有關這個老農津貼的部分未來勒"},{"start":11811.57,"end":11837.199,"text":"所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加釋出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用"},{"start":11838.5,"end":11852.452,"text":"所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權統一嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮啦我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒?還是中央出嗎?"},{"start":11859.317,"end":11867.041,"text":"中央的財政韌性就受到影響了你被挖走了4千億那你還要再撥補這麼多進去那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點受到影響之外"},{"start":11878.581,"end":11905.538,"text":"中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒?"},{"start":11906.36,"end":11921.441,"text":"至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話"},{"start":11923.966,"end":11938.889,"text":"因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助"},{"start":11939.309,"end":11964.258,"text":"那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市為補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看"},{"start":11966.348,"end":11987.885,"text":"這個設宅的專案計劃中央有補助少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費"},{"start":11991.618,"end":12014.089,"text":"中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北啦、台北啦、台中啦、高雄啊要蓋這一些這個軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出?"},{"start":12016.997,"end":12045.516,"text":"其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計劃型補助因為114年的計劃型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上"},{"start":12047.418,"end":12059.633,"text":"對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配"},{"start":12060.968,"end":12079.136,"text":"如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9000億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3000多億剩下3000多億"},{"start":12081.758,"end":12099.803,"text":"剩下3000多億那我們平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災"},{"start":12100.874,"end":12120.303,"text":"有什麼戰爭、有什麼樣的國際情勢大了轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又是要來一個像COVID-19這一種從中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種"},{"start":12122.145,"end":12130.065,"text":"這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎"},{"start":12133.898,"end":12158.058,"text":"跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政"},{"start":12159.158,"end":12175.246,"text":"所以不管中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的"},{"start":12175.794,"end":12194.789,"text":"因為我們對岸有一個中國阿隨時要武力要恐惡台灣阿軍機軍艦要來擾台阿我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話"},{"start":12197.871,"end":12222.174,"text":"萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法,我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分大家再來做討論"},{"start":12223.215,"end":12245.386,"text":"有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好"},{"start":12248.462,"end":12275.855,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員喔那你不要偷罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財劃法嘛他還不是一樣執政的嘛我可以發表我保持這是我的看法不等於是你的看法我沒有扭曲你的話主席當然可以做評論不要知道"},{"start":12278.516,"end":12301.958,"text":"主席意識中立是意識程序的中立不是表示我不能說話好嗎?你們要去了解什麼叫意識中立好我沒有打分數接著請賴世保委員吼賴世保委員我可以問我的意見嘛意識中立不表示不能說話大家沒有當過主席回去小學上課"},{"start":12304.538,"end":12317.386,"text":"議事中、律師中、程序每個人都有程序可以走還有COVID-19是舉債發行的大家要了解一下不要說錯謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的阮次長以及主計長"},{"start":12334.172,"end":12336.235,"text":"委員好在講之前,我要聲援一下主席啊這個執政委員不能夠對主席這樣子霸凌啊"},{"start":12350.597,"end":12364.362,"text":"這個 這個主席喔對你們有夠好的啦你們一直講話一直講話一直講話不要這樣子啦不要這樣子啦 你去看一看其他的你們時間暫停了 整個程序用底時間暫停時間暫停 時間暫停我都讓大家暢所欲言啦齁"},{"start":12370.168,"end":12394.826,"text":"沒有給一些正確的資訊啦齁我怕這位大眾得到錯誤的資訊我後面那間是舉債的齁六、六件兜品騎死贏人啦齁、好了、好了、好了好好尊重一下賴委員的發言每個人要發言可以再繼續登記齁我是有感而發我到其他委員會民進黨的委員當招委的時候時間一到不給你多講10、10秒鐘"},{"start":12397.067,"end":12407.333,"text":"10秒不給多講很清楚的大消息讓我們成立政黨一直講剛才財議一直講、一直講、一直講、給他一直講說沒關係這樣的主席還欺負他莫名其妙大家請坐下"},{"start":12419.133,"end":12423.878,"text":"今天沒有要質詢!好!大家尊重發言的委員齁!我會讓你們講齁!好!繼續問嗎?繼續問!來!繼續問齁!來!來!來!"},{"start":12434.802,"end":12462.719,"text":"財政委員會讓有第二輪、第三輪,你坐下來今天沒有要主條,不要那麼緊張啦,不可以表現啦來,處長,你們現在啊,等一等,等一等,我再講話,你等一等要講話,你等一等來,兩位長官啦,你們現在就跟著左輪拍,揮身立下好,這個東西,現在的公司不夠賺,不用去修我們剛剛過去的十幾年"},{"start":12464.062,"end":12480.549,"text":"修了五次啦!民眾黨團委員提了幾個版本就是現在盡力要省的民眾黨團委員也提版本N個、N個加一、N個加二、N個加三大家都認為要修啊!為什麼?"},{"start":12480.549,"end":12488.552,"text":"嘴弄派說:「啊!現在有夠讚!不要修了!」因為賴清德想要到皇帝"},{"start":12490.236,"end":12502.927,"text":"把地方政府都當作乞丐跟他奔進來,我們就看第一章我們就先看自己分的結果是什麼來,先看第二章分的結果是什麼下一張來,分的結果是什麼分的結果就是綠、大、藍、小、小、橫、大第一名我們統總會議會管家"},{"start":12520.266,"end":12536.538,"text":"補助款喔!一般補助跟專案補助喔!台內是第一名的!占他的支出68%!第二名高雄市占63%!欸比較略多喔!第三名!新北市52%!"},{"start":12541.823,"end":12569.951,"text":"第四名臺中市52%過來第一名桃園市最後一名臺北市啊!大家記得看什麼騙錢賠稅款這個資料都你們的 沒金錢就是你們不要分配怎麼分配財政部大小眼、主席總組大小眼給台人第一名、給高雄第一名臺北市最後一名就是你們分的結果就是你們分的結果"},{"start":12571.621,"end":12586.159,"text":"就是你們分的結果!這樣結果老百姓能夠接受嗎?其他的六都啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊"},{"start":12589.512,"end":12614.587,"text":"結果 排位分得更多來 回到第一張分的結果就是高雄市拿1,229億台北市拿861億差370億啊你們分的結果就這樣子啊你們分的分 打個露脊喔 打個露脊喔結果呢結果呢就是道地的大蝦園毒貨"},{"start":12617.952,"end":12630.427,"text":"路徑黨執政的縣市、六都裡面的兩都、台南市、高雄市、台北市採的地地的,這個就是你們自己分的結果。來!市長能夠講解嗎?"},{"start":12633.652,"end":12658.78,"text":"主席怎麼賣得下你啊?委員長我講一下啊!這個結果是你們分的啊!你看哪一站、哪一站你們分的結果啊!分給我講一下給我聽啊!這個部分是包括一般性的補助、包括計劃型的補助統籌、加一般、加庄案全部加起來沒錯!是!那統籌的部分就是按比率嘛!那計劃型...對!我的問題是加起來!來回到剛剛那一張"},{"start":12660.933,"end":12667.138,"text":"我這裡的資料是台北市是1043.3億高雄市是1066.5億現在講的是114你講113啊我們看再下一張這是114的啦來來來我們來看113多少你說多少台北市多少"},{"start":12691.107,"end":12704.935,"text":"一百一十三的部份...八百四十一個就給你們資料啊!此外來言,主計總署把這都列資料了,拜託!這是法定決算的咧!"},{"start":12707.614,"end":12722.549,"text":"對!你看看啊!台北市最少一名!台北市最少一名!每年都最少一名!好!其餘台北市!莫順於此啊!每年都最少一名!你看看!從110年!都是你們執政喔!委員長執政喔!121年、112年、113年!台北市都第6名了!你又讀裡面第6名!"},{"start":12728.494,"end":12734.518,"text":"然後呢,台南市都是第一名啊這就是你們分的結果啊你們分的結果組織總數結果就是這樣啊"},{"start":12737.705,"end":12737.825,"text":"這是你公佈的資料"},{"start":12766.633,"end":12790.161,"text":"你公佈16號你公佈之後來再回頭上一張我再跟你講你這幾年蔡英文民進黨執政以後這個比例第一名就是台南市第二名就是高雄市都沒變了都沒變這個這個排名都沒有變"},{"start":12791.98,"end":12821.119,"text":"怎麼會讓人家服氣呢?你們自己分就按顏色來分!因為你們執政你們分得多一點!阿你娘娘!阿不是你!你執政你生他個兒!阿把他貼到手!就是這樣!怎麼分?就這樣分啊!再下一張!這個很清楚看得到嘛!你們分的結果就是用政治力來分啊!這個老實講!"},{"start":12823.203,"end":12832.285,"text":"我很不喜歡把財要挖遍政治性的法案他是到底的極力兇殺在講錢講話你不要跟我講這一個故事我覺得你為什麼出來幾年來從111年到現在臺北市的最後一名就問我回答這個問題啊問你這個你不要給我講其他的最後一名啊!不管最後一名是什麼六都、六都最後一名"},{"start":12852.529,"end":12862.825,"text":"六度最後一名六度最後一名啦我們比較六度不要講其他限制啦你不要講金額我講比例"},{"start":12865.137,"end":12880.169,"text":"就是你給他的錢占他支出的比例台北市114人比高雄市少了370億這個數字是你們公佈的數字啊主計中處主計中處因為它是有包括統籌分配對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!"},{"start":12893.659,"end":12908.931,"text":"統統備稅款加一般補助加專案補助三個加起來不管用多少錢佔他的支出的比例這個很重要我們看待的台北市你看114人36%而已111人37%112人47%113年43%114年"},{"start":12922.58,"end":12925.964,"text":"42%就是你補充的錢佔他的支出你42%"},{"start":12929.636,"end":12959.236,"text":"就是政壇民宿的優良就和我們一起...委員他本身就會分,因為計劃型補助...主計長,來來來,我問一下次長,次長,那個次長,你回答一下為什麼要分?為什麼大小言?因為計劃型的我們這邊是沒有資料,但是如果是一般補助款,還有就是統合分配稅款目前分配最多的還是台北市,它就是114年如果預算是849億,它是六都裡面是最高的"},{"start":12960.076,"end":12977.812,"text":"你不要講金的,我講比例啊,聽不懂你金因為它的Mass大啊它的支出大啊,台北市的支出大啊對不對,它的支出2000多億,新北市支出也大當然你給它全部加起來就多,但是我說比例比例比例"},{"start":12979.394,"end":12987.423,"text":"整個組計長都假裝不懂,其實你都很清楚啊所以你什麼公式?你什麼公式?沒有什麼公式?沒有什麼公式?有嗎?有嗎?請問有公式嗎?那個不是公式啦,那只是原則啦"},{"start":12998.855,"end":13003.119,"text":"土地占20%、人口占20%、整個營業稅占50%、其他的財政支出占50%、整個教科書呢不要講這個啦!"},{"start":13015.069,"end":13032.395,"text":"沒有,但是我就要問你結果那個是原則而已啊,結果結果從110年到現在,台北市你們的補助包括同種人費稅款,包括一般補助,包括計畫補助,全部加起來,台北市都稅務移民。"},{"start":13034.172,"end":13049.293,"text":"台南市就是第一名,高雄市就是第二名。這些分架就是很清楚你們自己分的結果就是大蕭園了。對不對?喔,這樣,台南、高雄就是你們的兒子,其他都是小孩小孩的兒子,就變成這樣。"},{"start":13051.027,"end":13079.369,"text":"都這樣欺負非執政黨執政的一般計劃型補助它是按這個都沒有回到問題啊我問你為什麼這樣結果結果是這樣這是你的數字啊主計中處的數字我就問你為什麼這樣你不要跟我講計劃講些五十三個都沒有回到問題啊它根據第一個根據每個縣市的一個財政狀況你們不能承諾明天都有台北市不會最後一名"},{"start":13080.765,"end":13101.113,"text":"可以承諾嗎?不是,這是整個按照原則還包括它計劃型,因為在那裡的核地的...所以!草案要分!要重新修嘛!你們權力太大了!你們再把錢都坐在手上!其他的縣市要錢!包括六都都跟你們像乞丐一樣跟你們要!這個不是民主常態啦!我要講!卓榮泰你錯了啦!你們就跟著錯了!謝謝!"},{"start":13112.239,"end":13131.713,"text":"謝謝賴委員各位同仁現在已經12點了我們要不要讓休息讓那個官員還有跟大家吃個飯還是沒關係好那那個你們還是要一邊吃一邊講也是可以都可以我尊重大家意見"},{"start":13133.359,"end":13159.08,"text":"就是要到郭國國委員大家有沒有意見到郭國國委員以後我們讓那個讓官員休息一下吃飯下一個是你還沒是你下一位是陳培你別急下一位不是你們要換也可以好那就讓郭委員講話我們就休息讓大家吃飯好不好好你們兩位交換大家送單子郭委員下午大家休息的話兩點半來好不好好"},{"start":13161.277,"end":13168.503,"text":"好 謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好"},{"start":13184.13,"end":13206.068,"text":"市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄"},{"start":13207.438,"end":13233.691,"text":"倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下可是應該是新北啦自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果現在南部沒有錢多一點錢也是剛好一點啊"},{"start":13235.044,"end":13261.632,"text":"預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?那主席長你再看一次自由財源是第一、最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差!所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!或我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色,你是看自由財源對不對?市長!"},{"start":13262.732,"end":13277.053,"text":"主席長是不是?你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性"},{"start":13277.754,"end":13293.142,"text":"你要自我辯護啊明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啊"},{"start":13300.626,"end":13312.051,"text":"你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的"},{"start":13313.393,"end":13342.127,"text":"是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛"},{"start":13343.254,"end":13351.405,"text":"案你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般"},{"start":13352.312,"end":13378.665,"text":"一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛!"},{"start":13381.447,"end":13400.024,"text":"連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教于您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修?"},{"start":13401.105,"end":13428.87,"text":"這是一條權責的問題事權跟財權是不是要定?事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修?"},{"start":13430.25,"end":13458.642,"text":"地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭"},{"start":13459.242,"end":13487.068,"text":"賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":13490.077,"end":13495.562,"text":"主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式這是好的嗎?"},{"start":13514.875,"end":13526.356,"text":"不是來自於自己你如果說朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對"},{"start":13527.813,"end":13544.313,"text":"靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎"},{"start":13545.154,"end":13556.547,"text":"對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嗎當然無存嘛對不對"},{"start":13563.427,"end":13586.233,"text":"對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位"},{"start":13588.956,"end":13614.329,"text":"你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛才講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦!"},{"start":13615.229,"end":13642.042,"text":"所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢?"},{"start":13643.383,"end":13657.382,"text":"對不對?我們應該現在適時地講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地支法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關台灣要修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能?"},{"start":13660.153,"end":13682.279,"text":"我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出來我必須說主席長,你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢,如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯,你認為勒?"},{"start":13684.6,"end":13711.101,"text":"有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嗎?是!不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對?"},{"start":13713.939,"end":13718.183,"text":"那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛!"},{"start":13720.718,"end":13747.747,"text":"總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊!也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連震災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎?"},{"start":13749.244,"end":13750.745,"text":"你會安心嗎?"},{"start":13750.745,"end":13775.107,"text":"對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作"},{"start":13777.467,"end":13802.279,"text":"而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。"},{"start":13804.32,"end":13818.507,"text":"謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家治理得很好那就如剛所說我們就休息讓大家吃飯2點半繼續謝謝"},{"start":13831.973,"end":13837.275,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具"},{"start":21578.697,"end":21588.532,"text":"好,我們下午的會議兩點半繼續開始喔我們繼續開始做廣泛的討論喔那個,鍾佳斌委員也要發言齁,這邊簽名齁接著我們請張雅琳委員齁謝謝"},{"start":21608.278,"end":21614.382,"text":"謝謝主席喔那我想我想邀請我們的財政部次長我們請輪次長委員好"},{"start":21622.223,"end":21647.213,"text":"謝謝次長那我想因為其實今天早上已經有非常多的委員包括我自己我們都在強調一件事情總預算很重要這個事情排序應該是最重要的一件事情而不是現在來說這個財劃法那也有非常多的委員其實我在這個早上聽大家的發言的時候也學習了非常多那其實大家一直在強調一件事情財政紀律因為各縣市的差異非常的大"},{"start":21648.773,"end":21671.215,"text":"過去也非常多的這個剛剛也有很多的委員都有提到就是在拿這個中央的預算去做綁裝或是說原本這是要給教師的就後來就是去聘請正式老師就後來全部都綁了去做別的使用然後最後變成就是只能用代理老師來處理那我自己想要特別針對我自己過去比較關注的這個教育的這個領域就是說目前呢按照"},{"start":21672.516,"end":21694.622,"text":"這個中央這個按照國民黨的版本現在中央只剩下3689億元那這個經費如果扣除軍備預算11年是2945億元之後所剩無幾嘛那過去呢其實在中教育部呢在2022年到2025年其實有推動一個叫做深深用平板的專案那4年總共投入了200億來讓各縣市的"},{"start":21698.106,"end":21699.228,"text":"採購相關的資訊設備,像是平板電腦、教學軟體等等來進行數位的轉型。"},{"start":21704.881,"end":21728.784,"text":"同時也在2027年7月之後推出全國中小學班班有冷氣的政策並且投入了357億的中央補助款首先不論在都市或鄉村都有冷氣的學習環境所以我想請教次長就是說如果照國民黨的版本那今天這些肺炎勢必就會回到縣市政府要自行的來去籌劃跟規劃可能就不一定"},{"start":21729.565,"end":21755.731,"text":"全國能夠一起來開辦這樣我們剛剛講的深深有平板或是半半有冷氣的政策所以我想請教一下這樣是不是會造成以你們的專業來看這樣是不是就會造成所謂的一個城鄉差距的問題呢?就剛才委員指教了就是關於這個稅數的問題待會再麻煩請這個主席總書這時候說明那我另外就是跟委員做一個簡單的一個說明就是說"},{"start":21756.551,"end":21771.485,"text":"如果根據目前的國民黨版的話那釋出的金額是4080億元那如果照這樣分配如果假定水平分配沒有變動的話就有大概8個"},{"start":21773.087,"end":21787.744,"text":"8個地方政府他的分配的金額會超過他稅出的百分之百換句話說呢就是等於是說他拿到的錢比他所需要的更多所以就會造成這可能會財政紀律的一些疑慮的問題啦"},{"start":21788.925,"end":21807.081,"text":"對,但我想問一下,因為其實就是變成說他拿中央的錢可是他沒有確實的去,若以現在的話我們是可以去要求嘛但是如果他現在呢,他就自己拿去了可是我們事權的討論沒有確認清楚的時候當他挪用的時候其實我們是不是也沒有辦法的來去怎麼樣子去要求他是"},{"start":21807.641,"end":21831.337,"text":"基本上就是一定要跟錢跟權一定要並來討論嘛那我想問一下因為這件事情事關重大中央跟地方就像很多委員都有說是個夥伴關係所以我想確認一下因為剛剛講到事權的討論非常重要那我們現在跟各個縣市已經開始進行討論了嗎?當錢拿回去給他了之後有多少縣市他們是有一致性的共識"},{"start":21832.217,"end":21849.971,"text":"這一部分還沒有開始進行討論,還沒有進行溝通。我們現在進行溝通的最主要是針對分配的指標那一部分來做討論。那一部分我們也很努力去做。本來各縣市提供的指標大概有80個。"},{"start":21851.672,"end":21877.94,"text":"80個我們經過兩次的開會討論再加上私底下的溝通那目前大概已經慢慢的收斂慢慢的聚焦那現在只剩下幾個部分一個是權重的問題權重的問題還要再討論另外就是比如說像有些再生能源或者是防止污染或者是說其他的比如說像這個稅出的那部分要不要納進來的問題這部分還要再溝通"},{"start":21881.341,"end":21902.611,"text":"我們目前做的是這一塊至於跟地方政府有關這個事權分配這一塊我們目前是還沒有開始進行好,那我想問一下根據市長您的專業判斷就是說如果我們要進行這些溝通大概你覺得預估還需要多久的時間呢時間我覺得很難預料最主要就是說要有共識"},{"start":21903.812,"end":21926.124,"text":"如果大家都沒有共識的話你溝通再久也沒有辦法這也是為什麼我們財化法過去25年來那5次送到大院來為什麼沒辦法有共識的原因在這裡因為大家都從自己角度出發那我們現在就是說假定就是說國民黨版的話要釋出4千多億因為這個對中央的影響會非常大"},{"start":21929.786,"end":21957.971,"text":"對。非常大。所以一定要有這個就是假定要有扣回來的這個機制嘛。對。扣回來機制。扣回來機制的話就是代表健保啦或者是這個像榮寶啦這些。好。了解。因為我現在聽起來就是說我們好像要協調跟地方要做很多的溝通啊。是。這個要溝通。其實還差距非常非常大啦。謝謝。那我想啊就是說如果我們現在差距在非常大的狀況之下要來進行貿然做這些修法的討論我想這的確是一個"},{"start":21959.091,"end":21971.924,"text":"還需要審慎思考的地方,謝謝那接下來主席,那希望稍後主席也不要對我的發言做任何的評論,謝謝主席好,謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員,我不會對你做評論財政部要趕快緊急共識,動作要加快"},{"start":21975.486,"end":21985.67,"text":"我是要求財政部要尊重立法院,也要趕快的來前進,帶領國要前進。盡量啦盡量,但是要看地方政府的態度了,我們這邊要啟動很簡單啦。反是欲則利不欲則廢,加油。接著我們請林柱英委員。"},{"start":22002.46,"end":22012.218,"text":"謝謝主席喔 辛苦了從早上到下午有請我們阮次跟我們主計長阮次長喔 主計長去草野協商喔 副主計長喔副主計長 好來 沒有問題"},{"start":22021.57,"end":22046.668,"text":"館長,我想過去4年不是在這個質詢台上第一次跟您詢問了為什麼今天到現在我們還會以廣泛討論為主而且我一定要來發言就是因為這一次財劃法一共有多少個版本22個版本22個版本對不對那麼目前這些版本之間的差異主要有哪幾大項"},{"start":22048.368,"end":22070.694,"text":"差異其實都蠻多的但是基本上大部分的版本都只處理垂直分配的問題沒有處理水平分配的問題也沒有處理事權分配的問題其實為什麼本席會問這個就是因為垂直分配重要因為地方都說我們不要中央N點"},{"start":22072.355,"end":22096.226,"text":"要有自己的自主權這個我同意但是呢你垂直分配之外的水平分配其實也非常的重要更不要說我們知道這個所謂錢是隨著事權做轉移如果沒有溝通好的話我相信各個地方政府的首長是要直接面對選民的檢驗了最怕是什麼"},{"start":22096.906,"end":22121.959,"text":"拿錢不辦事或是拿了錢辦不好事那我覺得我們身為中央的民意代表更承受不起因為我們現在修的法規就像我們過去4年我在財委會的時候當時我們講到的囤房稅的問題當時是怎麼樣中央修法然後要來決定地方囤房稅的稅率我想你應該還記得當時我們財委會不分藍綠"},{"start":22126.661,"end":22154.869,"text":"白大家的專業在那裡就是沒有任何顏色的問題這是專業的問題你中央修了一個法規要地方吞要地方用你就要跟地方來做溝通那麼我就請問了現在地方上面的溝通剛剛您講到的垂直分配的數額水平分配的項目以及事權上面的質詢這三點做好溝通了嗎溝通了沒有"},{"start":22156.109,"end":22173.775,"text":"有沒有一個一個去溝通因為我要強調的是一個一個喔因為每一個縣市的狀況從人口、從稅收、從整個產業結構那不一樣的喔那請問你們溝通了哪些縣市做了哪些溝通"},{"start":22174.195,"end":22184.181,"text":"我跟委員報告,就是說我目前溝通的,剛才我也報告過,就是只針對分配的指標來進行溝通這個指標基本上是針對水平的分配的溝通因為現在的指標就是會有些縣市會比較吃虧"},{"start":22200.652,"end":22221.263,"text":"所以我們希望就是說能夠大家有共識能夠把這個水平的指標弄得更公平一點那這個東西這一部分我們現在處理的可以講說是水平的這一部分水平的部分溝通的是每個縣市都溝通嗎?大家都可以接受嗎?所有縣市都溝通過但是現在剛才有報告過就是大概現在只有還有一個兩個問題一個就是權重的問題權重的問題另外一個就是還有三個指標還沒有大家還沒有共識好"},{"start":22230.108,"end":22258.891,"text":"這個染刺講到重點了講到指標沒有人想要得罪人更沒有人希望指標是落後的如果根據現行的版本當中這個指標大家都挑自己有利的我就舉個例子從北的基隆到南的屏東如果大家可以挑指標誰會挑那個對自己不利的指標那如果每一個人都挑最有利的指標每一個人都特優每一個人都第一名那回歸到最後啊不是又一樣"},{"start":22260.031,"end":22282.954,"text":"所有的縣市,大家把這一塊餅拿來又來處理,那這個指標有意義嗎?對,所以這個是民眾黨的,他的問題就在這裡,就是他都是用最有利標那最有利標的結果就是每一個縣市都提出最有利的這個指標出來,到最後每一個都這樣提,最後的結果是什麼?就平均分配"},{"start":22283.314,"end":22309.969,"text":"本席很希望是就事論事但是剛剛我舉出來的這幾個例子我就會認為財政部又或者是主計單位因為主計單位未來是要做那個出來衡量指標或者是做分配的這個所謂的檢視者的過程當中這些指標中央訂定法令立法委員訂定法令之後地方如果至愛難行這是完全"},{"start":22310.669,"end":22331.272,"text":"不要說一個法定在那裡結果無法好好實施又或者是指標偏頗又或者是指標形同虛設那我就會認為這必須要好好的來從長計議所以我要求本席具體的要求是希望財政部能夠回去把你們現在跟各個縣市"},{"start":22332.933,"end":22346.74,"text":"從垂直分配、水平分配的紙標再到我們講的事權轉移尤其是前垂事權轉移的時候他們有沒有能力做到包括我還沒有提到地方是無法來處理國防"},{"start":22348.881,"end":22372.172,"text":"這樣的建設或是跨縣式的交通建設我們只要是包括補貼、津貼這種他們人手夠嗎?所以我希望你們要好好的把溝通的狀況做一個具體的報告我們在修法接下來逐條的時候會遇到的問題都必須要有數字要能夠佐證所以財政部能不能在我們逐條之前"},{"start":22373.032,"end":22400.154,"text":"先把這些都做釐清否則的話我們主條要怎麼審本席他會再來這裡喔跟委員報告所以這一定要給我們充分的時間你要需要多少時間溝通全台有這麼多縣市現在本席在這邊就廣泛討論所以就要提出一個時程不然的話主席在這裡我相信主席今天花這麼多的時間陪我們一起審還要到禮拜三結果到時候又很空泛的怎麼樣進行主條討論你需要多少時間你說"},{"start":22402.076,"end":22421.088,"text":"這個時間我真的很難在這邊這個說明,因為為什麼?因為每一個縣市都有他堅持的地方。這是我們... 那堅持不下怎麼辦?話跑到天還是來抽籤?就是有些縣市就很堅持,我舉個例子,比如說現在各縣市分配的時候都會有一些比如說像一些指標,比如說營利事業所的額。"},{"start":22423.19,"end":22440.178,"text":"現在你說的堅持的指標當中最容易有明顯的、比較大分歧的是什麼?營利是營所稅?營所稅的分配?就是分配,那我最大的稅務就是所額稅,對不對?所額稅,那麼就稅源比較豐富了,他一定希望說這個"},{"start":22440.998,"end":22443.76,"text":"財政部或組祭出一個時間點讓我們知道我們接下來如果要做主條討論的時候沒有這些"},{"start":22463.957,"end":22485.486,"text":"原則沒有這些各縣市的我身為一個雖然說我是全國不分區啦齁但是我總不能說因為我住台北或是我的有親人我有我媽媽這邊是在苗栗我爸爸這邊在台南我到時候做什麼我都有偏頗啊所以我需要數據我要各個西方縣、縣市政府他們能夠接受的範圍我才能來做一個佐證啊"},{"start":22486.386,"end":22506.224,"text":"是 包委員 這個基本上我們會努力來做但是我是覺得是說你給我一個假定一個時間假定我今天承諾一個時間但是如果到那個時候還是大家沒有共識的話拿出來的東西那這樣逐條無法進行喔這樣子我覺得會卡住喔"},{"start":22506.764,"end":22509.685,"text":"好,因為主席站起來了,主席不好意思,最後10秒鐘我就結束,好。"},{"start":22535.612,"end":22551.11,"text":"就像我們當時討論屯房稅一樣我們就是必須要行文然後必須要能夠有具體的往前一步不然我們在中央修這個法地方不服趕快變那我要告訴我要提醒軟刺喔"},{"start":22551.77,"end":22569.324,"text":"地方其實國民黨執政縣市至少13、14個縣市然後民進黨其實不多然後民眾黨也有這些東西是如果大家各持己見最後整個是撕裂是討論不下去的所以本席就是直接請你們要把具體的結論談出來才能夠進行逐條討論"},{"start":22571.84,"end":22577.422,"text":"財政部事在人為財政部事在人為財政部事在人為財政部事在人為財政部事在人為"},{"start":22596.973,"end":22606.279,"text":"謝謝主席那請那個那個卵次那還有卵次長那還有我們主記那個陳副主記長委員好"},{"start":22610.425,"end":22627.245,"text":"市長好,我想我延續剛剛林淑英委員的這個議題,到底就是全台灣23個縣市的一個溝通的時間,因為我們知道你一定必須要是兼顧到很多的一個面向,"},{"start":22628.106,"end":22647.804,"text":"等一下我會有幾個那個就是不管是健保的議題還有就是本期我存在的一些龍水路的這些補助的一個問題因為我很怕就是說在114年我們這個預算在未來會是一個什麼樣的一個走向這個都會影響到我們這個整體來講的話就是"},{"start":22651.187,"end":22676.176,"text":"議算的問題跟財務法的問題我想其實有沒有關係看起來也是沒有關係看起來也是有關係其實是連動的會連動的但是因為假定現在修的話應該是110最快也是115年才會開始開始調整對基本上是這樣你認為到了115年才會開始實施還是就是說"},{"start":22677.136,"end":22688.925,"text":"因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛所以不可能114年然後最快的話也是115年最快會是115年那如果我們做的比較周前的話會是116"},{"start":22692.119,"end":22715.657,"text":"如果我們花更多的時間就是說去做比較精密的一個調查的話因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的一個問題啊你那個權你的權重你的事情要誰來做啊那個錢分配了以後事情要誰來做這個非常重要的如果好那個部長我請教你啦次長如果我現在講我的一個老龍津貼對"},{"start":22717.518,"end":22734.923,"text":"那我的老龍津貼像在台南的老龍津貼他會跟就是彰化的老龍津貼如果這個財劃法這樣子劃下去的話他們一樣都是職業都是農人他們會是有一個相同的老龍津貼嗎對"},{"start":22736.463,"end":22754.453,"text":"會不會?所以我說老龍津貼,因為我剛才講就是說...沒有,知道,我現在問你的就是說台南跟彰化一樣都是那個老龍津貼這兩個其實都是農人,他們領的錢會不會像現在是一致性的?這個我是不是請主委總處來說明好不好?好,來"},{"start":22755.819,"end":22756.099,"text":"副主席長"},{"start":22775.382,"end":22803.4,"text":"如果以就是說一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市那我們可預期就是台南會分得多彰化會分得少是不是這樣子呢這也不一定是這樣算喔因為你財化法的話你這個人口數是佔了一個非常重要的一個基準67%那如果是這樣子的話緩和是台南的農民就不值錢了"},{"start":22805.171,"end":22832.898,"text":"我可以不可以這樣講?就是說要看最後那個分配是什麼分配所以水平分配就會變得非常重要是啊是啊那你你這個計算的方式的話就是說如果你這是67%是人口的比例啊那如果這樣子水平分配你這樣分配出去了那本來中央在管的時候大家都是一致性的全台灣的農民其實就是即使是離島的農民大家領的都是一樣的"},{"start":22833.638,"end":22845.172,"text":"那你這個財務法一劃下去的時候其實大概是每一個縣市都不一樣了這個情形會不會發生呢?有可能發生是有可能還是會?還是一定會?"},{"start":22849.305,"end":22867.475,"text":"大家分得不一樣當然一定會發生所以我們講的說錢我們必須要把它分配是在一個水平還是一個垂直可是相對的你這些事情你要出去你怎麼分配呢?"},{"start":22868.973,"end":22894.603,"text":"我跟委員報告一下目前的榮保跟勞健保現在是由中央在負擔所以沒有分下去的問題那我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西最主要是因為就比如像國民黨版它因為釋出的金額太大影響中央的施政所以我們勢必就要把有一些支出就要拉回來所以才會扯到勞保跟健保跟榮保的問題"},{"start":22895.723,"end":22911.01,"text":"所以現在目前就在中央在負擔那這個將來如果動的話就會涉及到修法的問題也就是說好 蘭智 我再請教你你已經講得非常清楚了你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的"},{"start":22912.17,"end":22932.269,"text":"那如果我們的那個財政收支劃分法我們落實下去了以後那現在在就是這幾年我們不要講未來啦這幾年中央重大的一個施政計畫的一個經會編列的情形那你們希望怎麼來因應撥補台電的這一個就我不問台電的這一個啦我問健保財務的一個協助"},{"start":22937.334,"end":22959.467,"text":"還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值"},{"start":22960.767,"end":22976.973,"text":"業務人員、醫護人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對,所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4千多億的話"},{"start":22977.893,"end":22999.245,"text":"那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動了幾乎都會受影響都是完全攤掉了就剩下3000多億而已啊這個幾乎很多都不能做了"},{"start":22999.605,"end":23028.422,"text":"那這個道家話更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢可不可以優先來做呢"},{"start":23031.698,"end":23049.717,"text":"因為我們現在如果釋放出4千億,下放給地方,他馬上就直接衝擊到我們的稅出。所以剛上午有說的,就是我中央只剩下3千多億的情況下,其實所有的計畫性補助就已經都沒有辦法。"},{"start":23050.317,"end":23072.272,"text":"推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的 全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說"},{"start":23076.255,"end":23087.471,"text":"如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話,你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢?"},{"start":23090.707,"end":23113.203,"text":"因為它的金額太大了所以就是說它已經沒有辦法已經沒有補救的一個空間就是說它整個我們這一影響到整個中央這個走運算它是沒有辦法編不出來因為它已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠產生嚴重的排擠就是計畫都編不出來那該怎麼辦呢?"},{"start":23114.384,"end":23141.723,"text":"所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多施政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過事權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓"},{"start":23143.624,"end":23158.384,"text":"就退讓比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間"},{"start":23160.686,"end":23188.445,"text":"其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的就是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了"},{"start":23189.185,"end":23194.738,"text":"自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?"},{"start":23196.391,"end":23219.371,"text":"會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政所以有一些剛才我也跟委員報告有可能為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了分了太多了分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了我講直接講白了我想在台南市在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市"},{"start":23221.172,"end":23241.497,"text":"這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題"},{"start":23243.835,"end":23262.733,"text":"對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的?就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那3%就給台北市"},{"start":23266.957,"end":23294.82,"text":"那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊"},{"start":23296.181,"end":23318.99,"text":"那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了"},{"start":23319.81,"end":23337.601,"text":"所以如果是照目前國民黨版的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧你這叫60幾%的人口的一個比例啊"},{"start":23341.804,"end":23361.99,"text":"我想這個是一個國家重大的一個財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的"},{"start":23363.95,"end":23385.98,"text":"這個慢不是說就不作為,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急,你知道嗎?大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。"},{"start":23388.942,"end":23413.38,"text":"好 謝謝賴會員、委員那如果照阮次所說的這個這樣子的話這樣錢拖比較多下去就會充分落實地方自治嘛地方決定做什麼然後達到這樣就可以達到主權在民的理念嘛那如果各位委員對各縣市的這個有意見的話比如賴委員就可以提出對台南市比較有利的版本嘛我們一併會併案審查好 謝謝接著我們請郭益勤委員"},{"start":23424.542,"end":23449.153,"text":"有請次長。輪次長。委員長好。辛苦了。我想所有的立院的同事大家好。那我先想請教一下次長,這個稅制騰餘,它到底是不是一個穩定的財源?那它會不會受到經濟景氣跟這個稅制調整的一個影響?"},{"start":23450.093,"end":23472.52,"text":"那將來如果說啦,如果說我們的未來的經濟放緩之後,那是不是它的稅收的收入也有可能會減少,這個會不會對我們的政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力?有可能,因為稅計聖語是這樣子,就是說我們的時增數超過預算數,那通常我們通常增加的我們就用來先還債。"},{"start":23474.04,"end":23492.229,"text":"如果還債還得差不多以後那還有多的那我們就擺在稅計剩餘作為未來的年度的財源來使用所以有時候就是說有時候景氣好跟景氣不好有時候就是會有就是會影響到那個稅計剩餘的這個大小的問題"},{"start":23493.109,"end":23511.963,"text":"好 那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話"},{"start":23512.963,"end":23525.752,"text":"對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方就交給地方去做這樣就可以了"},{"start":23528.214,"end":23554.385,"text":"地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說"},{"start":23555.225,"end":23557.588,"text":"財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的"},{"start":23572.669,"end":23596.342,"text":"我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說我們委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦"},{"start":23596.882,"end":23615.011,"text":"但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會"},{"start":23618.752,"end":23643.178,"text":"工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個減稅的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎?不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧?我這樣講對不對?"},{"start":23644.838,"end":23660.066,"text":"對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本為什麼呢?因為現在版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短"},{"start":23660.746,"end":23689.091,"text":"然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通"},{"start":23689.871,"end":23706.051,"text":"像節約就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠用就不夠這個也一定不夠那社福的部分呢社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢"},{"start":23707.091,"end":23725.817,"text":"會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書,我想他會去通盤去做討論因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助這個是我們預估"},{"start":23727.958,"end":23747.556,"text":"以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是"},{"start":23748.097,"end":23767.466,"text":"對。對。對。對。"},{"start":23767.986,"end":23790.735,"text":"對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁"},{"start":23796.297,"end":23818.404,"text":"以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啦是這個是長治久安啦我是覺得這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過喔對"},{"start":23819.324,"end":23840.073,"text":"我們本來有70幾個指標,我們扣掉了20幾個,就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的,我們把它貶除掉了之後,現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個,等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識,那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛,這是本席的意見。"},{"start":23841.513,"end":23842.674,"text":"接下來我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":23869.83,"end":23874.015,"text":"林業勤林業勤林業勤不在接著我們請陳培宇委員好謝謝主席有請次長金鸞次長"},{"start":23891.319,"end":23912.657,"text":"市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年呢上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大"},{"start":23913.618,"end":23932.504,"text":"我舉一個例子跟次長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大"},{"start":23934.085,"end":23950.035,"text":"更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像但是這樣到底要怎麼討論你們在跟縣市討論的時候你們通常目前討論到目前為止你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走"},{"start":23958.159,"end":23967.107,"text":"目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標先大家取得最大的共識那這個對將來的修法等於是又像回到原點一樣"},{"start":23975.854,"end":23992.09,"text":"那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂"},{"start":23995.513,"end":24024.765,"text":"二十五點那現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣"},{"start":24025.445,"end":24050.834,"text":"對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦"},{"start":24052.935,"end":24074.509,"text":"那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入主條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的"},{"start":24074.969,"end":24094.757,"text":"等一下等一下,還有脫離的。我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的。我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計,它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補。因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛。"},{"start":24095.357,"end":24109.587,"text":"對那11個縣市有其中11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題"},{"start":24110.707,"end":24131.657,"text":"謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務"},{"start":24132.757,"end":24148.51,"text":"以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀"},{"start":24157.597,"end":24182.08,"text":"如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常"},{"start":24182.56,"end":24197.506,"text":"他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們"},{"start":24198.086,"end":24218.383,"text":"如果是這樣的話我剛才講是說因為中央這目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來因為我錢已經出去了嘛"},{"start":24218.923,"end":24235.69,"text":"所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣"},{"start":24239.431,"end":24255.46,"text":"但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論?"},{"start":24258.125,"end":24260.767,"text":"我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?"},{"start":24284.988,"end":24298.684,"text":"而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員"},{"start":24305.07,"end":24320.617,"text":"市長要好好準備喔!今天竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會的可貴嘛我們竹條好文當然會有各種不同的意見嘛各個縣市都有不同的意見"},{"start":24322.096,"end":24337.348,"text":"沒有我是說請他好好準備才不會丟財政部的臉然後呢不同意見就是民主的可貴嘛民主社會就這樣可貴那如果大家都沒有辦法達成共識國家也是要往前走那我們就會尊重民主的制度嘛"},{"start":24337.808,"end":24354.796,"text":"我提供我在內政委會修法有八十幾個版本一百多條的經驗告訴大家就是逐條逐條進入討論就會凝聚出共識沒有凝聚出共識呢就像以前民眾黨的做法一樣就送交朝野協商在沒有共識就送交院會表決決定謝謝接著我們請范委員好謝謝主席有請次長阮次長"},{"start":24368.448,"end":24389.237,"text":"委員好次長午安我想您應該對這些版本的研究應該是最透徹的您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大沒錯以我看到的我們最高就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的政政前委員7633億"},{"start":24392.738,"end":24400.6,"text":"請問您知道最低的是哪位委員的版本?最低的我印象中好像...就是台上的陳玉珍委員啦!就是中央釋出328億喔!我不是說同一個政黨喔!同一個政黨這個差距有7000!"},{"start":24414.564,"end":24438.758,"text":"三百億之多是因為鄭振前在桃園、陳玉珍在金門、金門的財政前在新竹鄭振前在新竹我講錯了這個國民黨委員這個差距有7300億同樣是雲林張家俊委員的版本是中央釋出6612億我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧"},{"start":24439.298,"end":24460.469,"text":"他的版本是他的一半還要少3035億耶那我們到底是雲林的意見張家俊的比較有代表性還是丁學忠的同樣都是出自新北的應該都很了解新北需求吧洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5090億"},{"start":24463.27,"end":24472.215,"text":"羅明才委員的只有443億請問次長您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見還是羅明才委員?"},{"start":24473.263,"end":24497.662,"text":"我覺得是這樣啊,他們的差別在哪裡?在哪?一個要選市長,一個沒有要選新北市長嗎?因為他們都只處理那個垂直分配,所以呢...我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嗎?一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億,洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要5091億?因為很簡單,因為他就是把那所謂現在分配出去的是10%嘛,對不對?"},{"start":24498.863,"end":24504.608,"text":"他就把他提高到25%我沒辦法判斷嘛所以這個差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見差距就如此巨大剛剛主席居然評論我們國立群委員說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決欸主席"},{"start":24524.466,"end":24545.467,"text":"這地方的聲音齁 這個地方我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性光新北都不知道誰同樣都是選出來的你如果說張家俊不是選的丁學忠比較有代表性的話那光是選出來的我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見咧更何況地方政府辦個公聽會之後意見也是差距很大嘛"},{"start":24546.127,"end":24564.255,"text":"所以這條就是差距之大我們剛講這個部分中央釋出的部分就沒辦法就說看到一個共識了那我想請問次長您要負責中央的財政嘛我們今年假設好了國民黨最後打一架或者不准打架一律聽黨團的版本"},{"start":24567.457,"end":24579.663,"text":"6612億中央釋出請問次長我看到我拿到的資料勞保基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一百分之三十一對不對那請問次長那個勞保基金撥補砍了之後不夠的部分怎麼辦"},{"start":24584.315,"end":24589.817,"text":"我問你有沒有哪一個委員的法條把勞保的責任、基金撥補也拿走了?"},{"start":24611.716,"end":24625.048,"text":"有嗎?對,勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助?因為錢不夠啊,中央就是有,我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛對,所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嗎?沒有嘛,那強化社會安全網"},{"start":24627.91,"end":24653.656,"text":"有哪個委員的版本地方政府?沒有!那教育更不用講了我剛講教育依法是地方事權我早上舉的那個東部蒙知名縣市就是講國民黨的那個總召啦他的縣市啦花蓮啊都已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了然後一直在聘代理教師然後錢就是拿去辦營養午餐"},{"start":24655.396,"end":24682.748,"text":"那更不用講國防請問次長國防2945億還不含人數喔這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力這有辦法叫地方來補嗎?這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎?請問財政次長目前大概最可能的就是從這個計劃型不是我不要講錢了這個事項不可能交給地方嗎?不可能不可能那是中央的職權嘛"},{"start":24683.348,"end":24703.559,"text":"這個你要補來補去,你到時候又挖到別的,對不對?對。所以呢,癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔。所以呢,剛剛召委一直說,哎呀,這個差距要逐條審查,可以來討論。欸,立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦,你要討論你辦學術座談會,你辦座談會。"},{"start":24706.34,"end":24735.5,"text":"民主一定要討論但是如果你只是為了而討論而討論你辦座談會就好了審法條是要準備好了知道解方之後才是負責任的討論要不負責任的任意討論辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞請我們朝委從善如流一修法之後十幾二十年國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨這樣太沒有志氣了以上"},{"start":24737.4,"end":24758.328,"text":"謝謝范委員沒有討論不是民主怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方你說錯了是不是你說立法院不是討論的地方喔我們民主的可謂就是有多元的意見所以我們不是要辦座談會所以我們才要進入主條討論大家針對每一條好好地來討論阿"},{"start":24761.38,"end":24763.704,"text":"那怎麼會浪費時間呢?討論是浪費時間嗎?逐條討論是浪費時間嗎?"},{"start":24771.017,"end":24792.147,"text":"我們逐條討論以後如果沒有共識那就按照民主的程序少數服從多數多數尊重少數這個本來是這樣子不是啦你剛剛說立法院不是討論的地方讓我非常驚訝啦沒關係齁民主的可貴就是多元意見啦我們一定會好好討論而且我們不能只有廣泛討論太疏空墮墮好"},{"start":24795.458,"end":24800.36,"text":"沒關係等下繼續登記可以繼續發言接著我們請羅明才委員謝謝好謝謝主席、各委員、初列席、官員大家好主席可不可以請我們次長"},{"start":24818.272,"end":24840.058,"text":"你好你好我想立法院就是討論的地方是是是不同的意見多多來講特別是這次的召委主席他是表現可圈可點因為他慢慢的讓大家講到內心的話充分的表達不過我大概從"},{"start":24841.995,"end":24863.852,"text":"幾十年前聽到現在雖然版本很多剛剛因為有其他同仁也講到我的版本但是其實有那麼多的二十幾個版本它其實都有一個最重要的宗旨就是希望中央不要過度極權其實就是這個道理"},{"start":24864.861,"end":24884.79,"text":"所以剛剛有人講到說本席的提案大概是可能會增加數百億啊那有人的提案是幾千億通通都有而本席以為啊這個成功不必在我也不要說堅持說一定要用我的案只要能過"},{"start":24886.041,"end":24910.981,"text":"中央就多一點資源給地方因為我們都是區域選出來的最重要的是希望說多一點資源讓地方好好來做事比如說我們過去是台北縣現在深隔變成新北市深隔前跟這個之前跟之後你那裡有沒有數據啊我們大概的"},{"start":24913.201,"end":24940.043,"text":"統籌分配稅款從台北縣到現在有增加大概是每年增加多少?如果本席每次在這裡都大聲疾呼啊就要以人均的概念來思考這個問題因為人生而平等嘛這個一個最基本的一個精神所以就是垂直分配的時候這個地方就應該要把它定定下來是是"},{"start":24940.963,"end":24968.436,"text":"那這樣才有辦法好好來談事情嘛我們希望以這樣的精神但是你說全部用這樣的一個精神嗎?也不是啊就好像我們最近即將要審查了當沖降稅那其實這個也是我提的啊我這提延長五年嘛那儘管為了彭主委他還是覺得五年比較恰當那他的原因是說希望"},{"start":24969.52,"end":24993.795,"text":"未來整個亞洲的資產管理中心法規如果過度的變動外資就不敢進來今天一進來三年一下兩年就滿了下次又要面臨修法的問題穩定性不夠所以當然長一點比較好所以今天我們討論財劃法最大的一個宗旨就是說把遊戲規則定出來"},{"start":24996.252,"end":25022.663,"text":"地方才有辦法依據大概我明年大概可以獲得中央多少的補助我的預算應該怎樣妥適的來編其實過度集權好不好很多民眾也都在講說那前瞻一次要花多少錢8千多億8千4百億8千多億一次就通過不過分很多年就是了分很多年編國防預算"},{"start":25024.96,"end":25044.318,"text":"沒幾分的啪就幾千億幾千這樣出去了為什麼不把這些多的資源放在地方讓地方好好來施政我們說人民當家作主你錢到地方,地方有議會,議會有眼睛會盯啊"},{"start":25045.938,"end":25066.763,"text":"那地方他實際需要多少?這你錢充裕一點來,他就有辦法好好來推動嘛。本席在上一次的這個會議當中,我當召委的時候,我請22縣市全部首長不分藍綠什麼的,全部通通都來。"},{"start":25068.51,"end":25096.426,"text":"我就問他那如果有需要的你就大聲講出來請舉手不需要的你就可以先離開結果你知道22縣市全部都留下來表示他們是重視這個市他們是需要的所以我們希望說中央過度集權這是民眾不樂意看到的"},{"start":25097.529,"end":25125.481,"text":"因為你再讓我回來講我們是民主國家啊民主國家就應該讓大家更多的監督的機制如果你都說不要不要不要你們中央要全部一把抓那你幹嘛還要現在目前每年有多少給地方公視裡面有嘛公視委員的意思是說現在有多少對"},{"start":25127.373,"end":25130.938,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":25144.597,"end":25171.741,"text":"就是說如果你不給地方全部都由中央來決定的話那是誰說了算?誰來決定?那個就是按照公式去分配的有公式嗎?有公式公式分配所以就是25年來這個公式都沒有修改過嘛所以每個地方現在都改變了嘛像我們以前直轄市、台北市啊後來高雄啊現在六都啊所以六都選出來的這些民意代表"},{"start":25172.694,"end":25192.891,"text":"每個上來都是大聲疾呼啊為地方來爭取啊如果大家覺得不妥的請覺得不需要的簽個名嘛你可以聲明出來啊你看他回去能不能交代我們來自地方我來立法院我不會地方爭取那我當立委幹嘛"},{"start":25194.444,"end":25217.166,"text":"所以這個邏輯我也請主席你可以問一下如果真的不希望中央統籌稅款的補助他可以上來聲明他就先離開啊他就不需要在這邊講話啦 對不對我們要爭取的是給需要的人地方需要你就大聲疾呼來講的確有這些困難啊我們面對的很多"},{"start":25218.961,"end":25232.277,"text":"醫療的部分應該要增加的,消防車以及地方學校的教育等等,我們是需要的,還有我們有一些道路建設等等,對民眾的需求。"},{"start":25233.842,"end":25256.858,"text":"需要中央,更多中央,其實你中央你就把這個制度制定好,就讓它很順利的推展下去嘛。我跟委員報告,其實我是覺得我們對財化法就是兩個堅固,一個是地方的需求,一個是中央的財政認証,都要顧慮到,這是第一個。"},{"start":25257.658,"end":25285.26,"text":"第二個其實我們財政部不排斥說要釋出財源因為我們的修法六個原則之中其中一個就是擴大釋出規模所以擴大釋出規模只是說我們希望就是說還能夠調劑營需就是說能夠你釋出去了能夠就是資源比較差的那就多給他也就是說能夠讓他立足點能夠平衡"},{"start":25285.76,"end":25304.926,"text":"所以我們的六大的原則當中就包括擴大釋出財源所以中央沒有排斥說要釋出財源但是要合理、要能夠兼顧地方跟中央的需求所以像目前如果說以國民黨版如果釋出4千多億真的中央就很多事情都不能做"},{"start":25307.148,"end":25320.328,"text":"現在的情況就是可能有一些第一次來當立委的他比較不曉得說立法院其實就是合一制就算你有很多的版本你有很多意見都可以提出來大家可以協調嘛"},{"start":25322.284,"end":25344.498,"text":"協調當然可以協調但是我是說如果啦所以為什麼要草野協商就是大家來聽聽看大家的意見也許你沒有辦法100分每個人都沒有辦法爭取到滿可是多少嘛80分也可以70分也可以我倒是有一個想法就是說因為我們有一個六大的修法原則假定"},{"start":25345.479,"end":25361.136,"text":"用這個六大原則來檢視各版本如果可以的話就慢慢就可以聚焦然後慢慢的就是說你釋出的規模大概釋出多少那你水平分配應該用什麼指標來做分配最好"},{"start":25361.836,"end":25386.478,"text":"如果用這六大原則來檢視各版本的話,也許就比較容易有聚焦的可能啦。因為現在我跟委員報告就是說,現在很多版本都只注重什麼呢?注重就是錢的垂直分配啦。這樣子的話就會導致一個問題就是說,有錢的會更有錢,然後沒有錢的會更沒有錢。"},{"start":25387.159,"end":25412.964,"text":"就是平則越平,然後負則越平。其實我覺得你講的有一些道理啦。比如說,在這些那麼多的版本裡面,如果財政部有更好的方式,那財政部版本趕快拿出來。那我們就會跟著你的版本,我們來做凝聚共識嘛。所以我覺得這個也很好。其實在上個會期的時候,我們一直給財政部時間,"},{"start":25414.968,"end":25442.051,"text":"時間已經給了,等很久了我希望說市長剛剛講的六大原則資料給大家大家多多來研究一下如果說真的很好我也不見得會堅持一定要通過我的版本但是我覺得共同的精神是一致的那麼多版本大家幹嘛就是希望地方增加地方的財政錢可以多一點給地方"},{"start":25442.751,"end":25471.3,"text":"大概就這樣子而已。所以不見得說要5000多億,沒有5000多億,3000多億大家談一談,只要有幫助。其實我是覺得是這樣,如果是說中央跟地方,大家可以各讓一步,然後就是一開始不要釋出那麼多規模會影響到中央的施政的話,其實都比較好處理。現在比例中央跟地方大概多少?"},{"start":25472.962,"end":25501.334,"text":"現在的比例目前是這樣子62比38但是支出中央是64那地方是36換句話說中央的雖然是62但是我們的支出是64這也是為什麼這幾年我們財政中央的都是赤字那地方的這幾年都是雲雨到去年"},{"start":25502.054,"end":25517.973,"text":"那麼他已經達到648億的原因在這裡因為中國不斷的釋出那最後就是因為新北市人口最多是千萬拜託人均的概念讓新北市多一點的資源好做事拜託謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":25521.675,"end":25545.528,"text":"謝謝羅明才委員那我覺得次長講得很好啊就趕快提出財政部的版本你們都有覆案了嘛我們已經給你們三個月又有兩個月啦三個月又一個月啦六月份做的決議財委會有做一個決議說要提出版本嘛你們既然有六大指標就趕快按照指標提出來啊那照理剛剛說64比36那國民黨希望6比4也只有差4%因為很接近啊"},{"start":25548.082,"end":25564.877,"text":"對吧?62比4是收入嘛,我們說的是支出,支出是64比36嘛,中央地方嘛對不對?那我們要變成6比4只有4%的差距而已啊只是差別在於地方政府要提出計劃讓你們審還是由地方政府自己決定計劃嘛大概差別是在這裡嘛好,接著我們請張志榮委員"},{"start":25572.215,"end":25577.891,"text":"主席好、各位委員、各位政府官員、大家午安。師傅有請政事"},{"start":25584.017,"end":25601.354,"text":"委員好。政事好。謝謝,政事辛苦了。首先我要對我們郁真、趙偉表達敬意,他勇於承擔。我常常跟趙偉在聊天,他其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題,他表達他內心非常的"},{"start":25603.536,"end":25608.298,"text":"財政收支劃分法從民國88年當時配合修憲精神以後都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進其實已經有完全失去地方財政"},{"start":25627.297,"end":25644.729,"text":"財政的一個健全的一個問題還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效那我想請教這個政策我記得在111年的時候我們這個稅收超徵5000多萬那112年的時候超徵大概3800多111年超徵5000多億然後112年的時候也超徵大概3800多億那113年的時候今年度大概您知不知道說整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢"},{"start":25657.797,"end":25684.133,"text":"到目前還很難估了,大概目前我們預估大概會超過1000億左右啦。對,謝謝。對,那這也是跟我目前所了解看到新聞報道。但是我要跟委員報告就是說,雖然100,剛剛講委員提到111、112,雖然我們說是時增數也超過預算數,但是如果是加計,如果特別預算的話,其實是次制啦。"},{"start":25684.773,"end":25712.661,"text":"所以我是從我現在掌握到的資料從101年到114年這十幾年當中只有3年只有一點點剩餘其他的全部都是赤字那相對來講地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上所以就像去年的話其實他剩餘已經達到648億所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政是比中央還要穩健"},{"start":25714.762,"end":25736.433,"text":"我的理解是這樣所以這是你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢中央政府每年的就是因為特別預算的原因所造成的赤字所以稅生招收的部分不然五千多億、三千多億跟今年預計的一千多億都是被特別預算給吃掉了最主要是特別預算因為我們像比如說像明年我們預計大概舉債大概是2313億所以還是要舉債的都是赤字"},{"start":25743.616,"end":25764.471,"text":"所以只是稅收那一部分,就總預算那一部分是比預算數要多,但是你如果加計特別預算的話,其實還是赤字啦。好,了解,謝謝政事。那本席了解就是說政府的預算,因為每年都超出稅收,這就是人民的納稅錢啦,可是因為特別預算"},{"start":25766.787,"end":25783.769,"text":"當政府認為說政府有赤字所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎?所以正式的意思大概是這樣子對因為如果一下子釋出太多的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做"},{"start":25785.01,"end":25785.471,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":25800.047,"end":25818.241,"text":"國防支出都不夠我跟您報告一下從這個明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟這個一般補助信款因為本期是來自新北市中和那新北市只分配到662.05億結果還目前依照現在的分配的整個狀況來講"},{"start":25819.702,"end":25836.76,"text":"他人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名因為他整體的人數有到400多萬人所以每個人只分配13625也是全球排名倒數第三新北市其實像剛剛您講的中央來講每年都是短處的問題"},{"start":25838.402,"end":25857.55,"text":"那我想請問一下這個針對六都的部分尤其新北市是六都跑名最後倒數第一人均只有13625就財政部的立場這樣的金額會不會太低啊就是說有沒有未來有沒有說調整公視以後可以把這個數字往上給提升"},{"start":25858.23,"end":25883.339,"text":"這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本上所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分我認為不能但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多"},{"start":25884.279,"end":25908.185,"text":"過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點"},{"start":25909.125,"end":25922.788,"text":"是財政部認為說可以來參考的或來執行的我跟委員報告目前22個版本當中幾乎是處理的垂直分配也就是說就是資源釋出"},{"start":25923.991,"end":25947.146,"text":"都至於說怎麼分配比如剛才委員提到了新北市的問題它怎麼去用什麼指標去把它分配得更合理、更公平這一部分從來都沒有碰到所以我是覺得說目前的這幾個版本可能都不是沒辦法作為一個討論的依據那如果可以的話可能將來就是還要再做一個調整"},{"start":25950.928,"end":25957.291,"text":"那最後我再請問一下,因為我剛剛聽到昭偉有說,就是說昭偉現在就是很希望說進到這個竹條討論,剛剛次長也有說竹條討論是可以解決現況的嗎?竹條討論如果沒有先做先起的這個準備的話,我們現在就在準備啊。"},{"start":25972.457,"end":25978.64,"text":"對,我們會努力來整合,所以市長不排斥逐條討論,大家一起來討論,來解決現況。這個東西我沒辦法承諾,因為這個我...可以來往這個方向進一步來討論,對不對?因為這是大約的職權,就是委員自然就可以去怎麼決定。"},{"start":25993.889,"end":26014.438,"text":"但是就我的角度來看就我們行政機關的角度來看如果是說在討論之前如果有一個基本的一個大框架的一個共識在主條討論的時候一定會更順利啦如果以目前這樣來看的話我是覺得比現在我是覺得沒有比現在好啦"},{"start":26015.523,"end":26037.252,"text":"我覺得真的沒有比現在好啦因為為什麼?因為現在的就是他有一些他有一些基本上他有一些這個調整允許啊什麼之類的節償補短都有這些機制但是現在很多新的版本這個機制都沒有了財政努力也沒有了財政機率這些都沒有那我就覺得"},{"start":26038.092,"end":26062.569,"text":"感覺上我的理解可能會不會就是卓院長講的現在版本是最好的版本就是說我猜想可能就是說還沒有更好的之前也許現在是最好的因為為什麼?因為大家就照目前這樣子一直分配下去那地方也拿到最多的錢嘛但是我覺得當然每一個想法不一樣啦我們還是這個很多東西都還是可以再進一步討論啦好 謝謝"},{"start":26067.403,"end":26078.506,"text":"謝謝張志倫委員,謝謝所以暖赤你們要陳述趕快提出版本啊我們一直在等啊好,接著我們請吳立華吳委員謝謝謝謝主席,有請次下"},{"start":26095.206,"end":26101.593,"text":"請問我們短次長還有主席人員主席長回來了喔喔 主席長回來了喔好 寫商結束"},{"start":26107.606,"end":26135.507,"text":"委員好次長好、主席長好大家都累了、很辛苦其實我想我們的國家應該有很多的事情都需要你們回去做財事但是還是很謝謝主席安排因為很多的東西也很值得討論請教一下因為最近我們收到一個新的提案在禮拜五也通過了"},{"start":26136.536,"end":26155.334,"text":"就是就一些來就教一些名詞,因為這些名詞都很專門。可能一般人啊,如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語,恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話。那我就請教﹖ 財政收支劃分法嗎?"},{"start":26156.65,"end":26158.612,"text":"請教一下那個所謂的剩餘有兩種詞同音異字"},{"start":26178.939,"end":26190.906,"text":"一個剩是剩下的剩,那一個是專門在用的那個剩餘,肉字旁,然後旁邊有個貝。請問這兩個詞有什麼差異?那我問簡單一點好了。好,請問"},{"start":26205.296,"end":26212.638,"text":"如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼?"},{"start":26214.356,"end":26237.466,"text":"我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘我們目前的做法是剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該"},{"start":26243.101,"end":26249.794,"text":"應該是……應該算是……算是等於是我們就有……還是我應該問主席長?問主席長,這個稅計攝影師的專業"},{"start":26254.026,"end":26277.129,"text":"因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分"},{"start":26277.509,"end":26291.222,"text":"那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短促經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以"},{"start":26292.564,"end":26309.651,"text":"這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":26314.298,"end":26337.632,"text":"可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是"},{"start":26338.789,"end":26343.903,"text":"我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎?"},{"start":26345.39,"end":26371.537,"text":"不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短處還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短處但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短處來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁"},{"start":26373.427,"end":26396.047,"text":"今天早上鄭天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億鄭委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案"},{"start":26397.284,"end":26406.223,"text":"那另外呢我們的預算這個提案說明他說嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作"},{"start":26407.964,"end":26432.778,"text":"這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比我不夠"},{"start":26433.819,"end":26434.58,"text":"他們一直提到說"},{"start":26454.278,"end":26473.219,"text":"因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說"},{"start":26474.46,"end":26498.986,"text":"因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢吶它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半"},{"start":26499.526,"end":26501.729,"text":"但是他從去年開始112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個"},{"start":26517.929,"end":26530.403,"text":"來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計畫來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了"},{"start":26532.125,"end":26556.352,"text":"其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了"},{"start":26558.694,"end":26585.571,"text":"現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助,修繕的補助,買房子的補助,這個可以收回嗎?對,那你講到基金我就要談了,因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦,因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛"},{"start":26588.68,"end":26594.444,"text":"你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20%"},{"start":26598.128,"end":26624.537,"text":"現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎"},{"start":26625.694,"end":26654.834,"text":"因為原住民綜合發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的"},{"start":26657.655,"end":26682.102,"text":"撥補400億進去之後花完了就沒有了跟我們這種我請教主席長哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下但是也是有在撥補啦是這樣子那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕?"},{"start":26685.257,"end":26712.648,"text":"欸 你們都 你看剛才我有的問題你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花棟地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的一個...因為剩下6秒齁 5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份"},{"start":26714.127,"end":26722.629,"text":"提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總組這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著"},{"start":26742.83,"end":26762.119,"text":"沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦啊如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛"},{"start":26766.789,"end":26790.907,"text":"所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公佈預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎?所以是不是一場鬧劇?"},{"start":26792.901,"end":26800.045,"text":"是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們"},{"start":26823.177,"end":26851.065,"text":"其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊"},{"start":26852.563,"end":26863.853,"text":"也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通"},{"start":26865.086,"end":26890.11,"text":"給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了早一點撥補多一點錢進裡頭不要用的時候才需要好像去加上罐乞丐啊"},{"start":26890.63,"end":26918.684,"text":"就像是我們現在修這個財政收支劃分法一樣嘛就 裡面就應該讓他有錢這樣運作起來比較順暢那如果這個總預算這個真的如委員所說的比如說公屋基金編4萬啦齁這個 公屋預算編4萬 原住民基金編2萬那如果吳立浩委員是左院長的話這件事情就解決了嘛現在是左院長應該也沒有承諾是4加2這個樣子啦齁 如果有的話這事情就解決了嘛齁好 謝謝接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":26932.555,"end":26941.044,"text":"謝謝主席,我請次長還有主組長曾主席長委員好"},{"start":26948.707,"end":26972.58,"text":"首先謝謝主席今天我們也聽了一整天各個委員的發表意見那當然剛剛也聽到次長講了很多其實一整天包括從我們上個會期開始我們提案到現在都在給財政部時間跟地方政府溝通然後我們在等你們的版本看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本禮拜三的逐條審查的時候你們依然沒有版本"},{"start":26973.769,"end":26984.377,"text":"主席長我想問你一下你從台南市來你曾經說過財政收支劃分法必要要修你到現在認為不用修了嗎?當了主席長有沒有換腦袋?"},{"start":26986.506,"end":27007.262,"text":"那時候90年的時候台灣市的負債是92.36那我們必須3年內達成降低到45%所以那時候薪水花不出來然後公務人員所有的旅費啊相關的費用通通減那還是一樣沒辦法但是現在都改善了現在我們縣市裡面剩餘所以你認為這樣子就不用修了是嗎?"},{"start":27015.168,"end":27041.455,"text":"以目前來講的話原則上大部分縣市原則上都有滿足來次長因為就這個邏輯就是因為改善了所以不用修是嗎財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由囉我們從來沒有講說因為改善了就不用修因為我們的修法其中一個原則我剛才也報告過就是其中一個原則我問完問題你再說好嗎你今天說"},{"start":27043.155,"end":27062.631,"text":"國民黨的4千多億那民眾黨的2千多億呢?你覺得合理不合理?這個就是還是要看這個整個中央的資源夠不夠財政部認為多少億合理?我們很難認定說要多少你今天講了一整天4千億不合理你告訴我多少億合理?"},{"start":27063.251,"end":27080.965,"text":"那我的意思是說,我們...垂直分配,你告訴我多少是合理的,是財政部可以接受放下這個垂直分配的門檻?因為我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題...所以你們討論了一整年,也沒有任何的...市長,你只要回答我的問題,你認為多少是合理的?"},{"start":27081.886,"end":27106.28,"text":"沒有答案因為最主要是我們跟地方政府的水平的分配這一部分還沒有共識我現在問你的是垂直分配你認為多少是合理對中央政府的運作不會受影響是一千億、兩千億還是三千億因為你說四千億會影響嗎因為這個我們要盤點就是我們對中央的所以我的意思是說不要在這邊鬼打牆第一先把垂直分配定下來"},{"start":27107.594,"end":27125.768,"text":"金額多了再來討論水平分配的公式這才是針對財政收支劃分法最好的方法否則你每天用水平分配來搪塞我覺得這件事情非常不負責任也就是說如果你認為4千億不行那你認為多少可以但是增加了2千億或3千億"},{"start":27126.909,"end":27152.624,"text":"水平分配就以你們現在的你們認為最好的分配方式他就是可以拿出來討論的可是你們現在的問題是第一我不跟你討論隨時分配第二我一直拿水平分配來跟你鬼扯我覺得財政部從我們提案到現在都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本或者是你們的立場這一點我覺得是非常不負責任的從部長到院長"},{"start":27153.564,"end":27177.985,"text":"到你今天的回答告訴我你認為多少是合理的我們跟委員報告我們現在就是我們修法一個月所以你現在還是沒有答案其實是有包括擴大市數的規模那我就來看看吧什麼叫合理不合理各個縣市的自籌財源你看一下從台北市到157%六都大概平均50%但是其他縣市不到23%到27%你覺得這樣合理"},{"start":27182.116,"end":27207.919,"text":"下一個為什麼要修第一個地方政府沒有穩定的確定的收入他沒有辦法做長遠的規劃相關的事情要看老闆的心情也就是財政部或者是主計處該要給多少由他們決定所以費時費力還不定有所以要用功讀書才會有獎品最嚴重的是人均分配顯然不夠比較嚴重的是這個各位看到這個"},{"start":27209.281,"end":27234.846,"text":"各個縣市都在蓋社宅根本就沒有錢蓋所以呢中央可以蓋到五萬四千戶台北市還財政比較好蓋到兩萬戶其他新北市以下都是一千戶我們當把所有的錢全都集中在中央的時候就會產生地方蓋社宅、就校社要自己想辦法所以沒辦法做全部變成中央來蓋社宅這違反"},{"start":27235.746,"end":27253.548,"text":"地方自治的精神這也違反整個財政收支的相關規範因為它全部放在地方而地方政府自己也在蓋所以變成中央地方兩種不同的制度次長你知道這個狀況嗎?了解所以這個錢還是要集中在中央由中央來蓋是嗎?"},{"start":27254.709,"end":27281.229,"text":"不是,我的意思是說為什麼剛才委員講說要釋出多少規模因為你有答案嘛,你有答案就不要再扯了好不好接下來就是修法時間不是我們說這個是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取希望修財化法2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建民也主張要列為優先法案讓非六度的縣市可以翻轉"},{"start":27282.45,"end":27294.917,"text":"這句話不是我說的,是執政者說的那個時候您在財政部嗎?次長你那時候在財政部嗎?你都在財政部,這些你都經歷過吧?那時候我沒有負責這個業務你沒有負責這個業務,但是這些事情財政部都經歷過"},{"start":27303.021,"end":27321.075,"text":"接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本"},{"start":27322.416,"end":27341.418,"text":"這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同"},{"start":27342.489,"end":27360.783,"text":"我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分"},{"start":27361.969,"end":27388.019,"text":"獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二"},{"start":27389.625,"end":27394.333,"text":"相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且"},{"start":27395.29,"end":27419.826,"text":"只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的"},{"start":27420.626,"end":27446.573,"text":"是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完"},{"start":27447.293,"end":27473.71,"text":"第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的"},{"start":27474.15,"end":27485.339,"text":"第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的"},{"start":27486.462,"end":27513.924,"text":"因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了"},{"start":27514.164,"end":27530.359,"text":"好,所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不是沒辦法做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告"},{"start":27530.979,"end":27547.328,"text":"我們現在雖然是3兆3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個問題"},{"start":27548.208,"end":27574.96,"text":"所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府"},{"start":27575.76,"end":27599.833,"text":"只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法"},{"start":27601.842,"end":27613.766,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝黃珊珊委員大家都因期盼財政部提出版本我們再次請求盡快盡快謝謝接著我們請李燕秀委員謝謝召委我可不可以請次長好"},{"start":27631.352,"end":27644.88,"text":"委員好市長好我想今天這幾天包括上個會期我們委員會其實都討論非常多財政、財化法的修法其實已經隔了25年沒有修包括剛才你們回應說這個擺不平"},{"start":27647.881,"end":27667.856,"text":"從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財化法到這個會期你們還送不出來幾大理由我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論就因為擺不平所以該做的事情都不做嗎在我看來這叫做行政的怠惰沒有一件事情是容易每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢"},{"start":27669.775,"end":27689.433,"text":"大家都要,大家都有一套自己的說法,但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛,對不對?那你說因為擺不平所以我們沒辦法做就不做,我覺得這個就是行動。在我看來,其實處理政務、處理事務,無論是中央或地方,沒有一件事情是容易的。"},{"start":27689.853,"end":27717.111,"text":"但是選出來之後就要做完全的行政負責、政治負責這就是一個政府應該要有的功能在那在這一次的討論當中我從媒體上看到你們是暗算立法院的修法叫做倉促修法應該在民具之後民具共識之後再審慎推動但是我要提的是財化法的修法真的是一個"},{"start":27719.153,"end":27746.17,"text":"難道只是一個朝夕之間的問題嗎?恐怕不是因為從賴清德過去自己在當台南市市長還有包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長從過去的鄭文燦還有包括台南的代理市長李沐彥還有林佳龍還有潘文安等等其實早期在民進黨執政過去的8年今年邁入第9年都曾經提出來財化法是應該要修了"},{"start":27747.304,"end":27765.375,"text":"那到今天為止我要請問財政部今天坐在底下除了政務官之外事務官坐在這邊這麼久了難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來到今天為止還送不出一個版本還送不出一個基本架構來嗎?"},{"start":27767.025,"end":27786.307,"text":"跟委員報告我想那個財化法為什麼從民國88年我們送了5次送到大院為什麼沒辦法獲至共識為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法就是因為各地方政府大家都有自己的立場所以很難整合"},{"start":27787.088,"end":27800.637,"text":"但是即使是這樣財政部我們最近也一直在邀請地方政府在溝通希望能夠把這個相關的旗艦能夠縮小所以我一開始的時候呢原來地方政府提了80個指標"},{"start":27802.918,"end":27825.507,"text":"那我們經過兩次會議以後,我們現在慢慢給它收斂以後,我們現在只剩下幾個,比如像權重的問題,或者是說像污染防治的問題,或者是再生能源,或者是說稅出的節減要不要納進來。除了這幾個之外,其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了。那還需要多少時間嗎?"},{"start":27826.647,"end":27845.401,"text":"所以我們現在就是這樣就是說最難的在後面要最難的你說不定你說出來說我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通啊但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊最重要就是我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦各退一步比如說像權重的問題像權重的問題"},{"start":27848.203,"end":27876.09,"text":"有些縣市他比如說像他的市長市長因為我今天時間其實也不多我必須要提醒你你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾或藉這個機會告訴所有縣市首長我們現在還有差幾個指標我們還沒有共識我們希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通那我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式有機會大家有一個最大的公約數"},{"start":27878.127,"end":27898.549,"text":"來去做溝通跟努力,但是關鍵是你到今天為止這個會期版本送不送得出來?如果大家都願意這樣推讓一步的話,其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成但是我是覺得很多事情啊,很多事情,整到要分錢的時候啊,很多就會有很多的意見啊,我們過去的經驗是這樣"},{"start":27900.931,"end":27922.781,"text":"當然都是,這個涉及到各縣市未來的財政的規劃、市政的規劃還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型還有淨零排碳等等,就是說地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多你們這一次講出來幾個理由,一個是擺不平,或者是你們覺得地方知識法應該"},{"start":27924.562,"end":27925.563,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":27955.003,"end":27979.454,"text":"討論很完整除非是突發狀況比如說這個兒少法去年上個會期有修法我們重新有對一些中央跟地方的事情有再加強分工之外其實本來具體的項目早就已經編在各部會裡面中央跟地方怎麼樣全責劃分所以我不清楚你講的是說我們要等第4法這個整理討論得更完整之後我們再來討論這個經費的分布"},{"start":27983.07,"end":27990.155,"text":"現在地方要負責的項目其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼、中央要負責什麼而不需要再修地質法"},{"start":27991.465,"end":28012.117,"text":"如果現在才要來修地制法,那過去中央市權跟地方市權怎麼樣做分配?我沒有講錯嗎?所以我跟委員報告,這也是問題的關鍵。為什麼呢?因為就是目前提出來的這些版本只處理了釋出財源的這一部分,就是只有隨時分配那一塊。"},{"start":28013.078,"end":28027.691,"text":"那至於說水平分配那邊都沒有處理。都沒有處理的話,那你那個錢出去到底要做什麼呢?要講清楚啊。所以會涉及到事權的分配的問題。所以這個地方溝通就是會比較難處理。"},{"start":28029.432,"end":28054.378,"text":"要怎麼樣做事權的分配中央跟地方其實都已經有一個就是說未來是從人口從面積從有一些偏鄉的他可能老人比較多出生率我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來去做討論關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體化提出來沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法所以我必須要再提醒你就是說我覺得"},{"start":28056.158,"end":28082.943,"text":"就是說整個中央跟地方不要讓外界只有批評說你們是極權又極前我覺得地方首長對於不管藍綠的執政縣市最清楚知道市政的規劃優先順序他要怎麼樣來用是最好過去我不要去講哪一個縣市因為有一些縣市我們批評到人家縣市也不好就是說我們外界看到很多拿中央的補助但是卻產生很多的蚊子管很多的蚊子建設"},{"start":28085.026,"end":28106.697,"text":"但是如果你有限的錢撥給地方讓他自己決定他接下來這4年、這8年他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好他把托兒所、托嬰中心建的更完整、更足夠他就知道哪些是他地方的優先順序需要的就會減少所謂"},{"start":28108.231,"end":28124.648,"text":"文字建設的產生這是過去的問題所以我個人還是認為地方的統籌分配管應該還是要隨時分配應該儘速的重新趕快去做調整那至於地方的我覺得在野黨"},{"start":28125.589,"end":28138.247,"text":"都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通我們也有我們的版本出來今天在野黨這麼多的委員我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本其實應該有機會去"},{"start":28141.811,"end":28167.17,"text":"一些最大的公約數出來否則財劃法從過去25年討論到現在都沒有往前進一步民進黨也執政邁入第9年我們還是希望可以有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本否則的話就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的你們覺得不妥當、不妥善然後到最後又要再來搞一次釋憲復議然後再搞一次釋憲"},{"start":28169.083,"end":28195.45,"text":"這個我覺得是勞民傷財所以第一我還是認為想辦法擴大財源然後保障現有的權益然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制未來怎麼樣去做分配然後另外我個人認為營業稅要百分之百應該要回饋地方我們應該想辦法把餅做大擴大釋出要給地方的財源的規模然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力另外台北市的部分呢"},{"start":28196.63,"end":28226.09,"text":"我建議台北市仍舊是一個守善之都所以未來的基礎建設還有包括大型的一些公共建設的破壞我們就希望台北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力所以包括在台北市的部分還應該要有的相關的一些首都的加擠所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容"},{"start":28227.412,"end":28234.383,"text":"報告委員,剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的"},{"start":28235.46,"end":28257.731,"text":"但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話"},{"start":28258.591,"end":28283.257,"text":"這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的"},{"start":28283.917,"end":28311.764,"text":"所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天"},{"start":28313.144,"end":28334.134,"text":"雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的招委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎"},{"start":28335.731,"end":28341.236,"text":"我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識"},{"start":28362.594,"end":28380.226,"text":"本院黨團擬具《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續擬具"},{"start":28389.763,"end":28391.755,"text":"一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":28505.776,"end":28525.532,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":28535.688,"end":28556.557,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":28588.66,"end":28593.183,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":28615.123,"end":28616.825,"text":"我已經跟他黨通話講好的分析了。"},{"start":28660.478,"end":28668.945,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接著我們請吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員不在吼接著我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":28678.871,"end":28679.172,"text":"主席"},{"start":28697.963,"end":28716.222,"text":"主席長請教一下因為您長期都在主席處所以對預算執行非常的清楚那我想請問一下我們現在來討論財劃法的修正會不會造成明年度的預算執行的問題"},{"start":28717.503,"end":28727.178,"text":"跟明年預算執行有沒有相關?我們現在討論財化法的修正跟明年度的預算執行有沒有相關?"},{"start":28729.127,"end":28756.559,"text":"要看他什麼時候生效執行是但是基本上你們的預算已經通過了嘛對不對也送到立法院了所以我們今天我們即便是這個會期完成這個財化法的修正會影響到明年度嗎如果說你要用114年度的決算的時機去算的話那就會有影響這樣子"},{"start":28757.984,"end":28760.918,"text":"沒有我就說明年度的執行是"},{"start":28761.86,"end":28784.951,"text":"明年度的執行原則上是不會的不會嘛對不對明年度執行預算不會嘛他最快最快也是影響到115年度對不對這個部分我們必須釐清因為今天早上一大堆之前也沒有在關心財劃法那一大堆可能預算也看不懂的委員在這邊東講西講好像今天財劃法"},{"start":28788.112,"end":28814.46,"text":"的這個修正或者是通過立刻就影響114年度我覺得這是有很大的謬誤好我想請教一下今天早上我也特別提到就是我們賴總統說明年度也就114年度我們的補助款會增加800多億那麼我想請問一下"},{"start":28816.221,"end":28837.577,"text":"以六都來說,那麼在整個的補助款的部分哪一個縣市補助的金額最多?好,你們現在才在做功課,來我們可以看一下"},{"start":28839.751,"end":28862.408,"text":"現在以預算數我們中央補助來我們再看一個就是台北市六都最少的那個部分可以看到除了統籌分配稅款之外很重要的就是來自於中央的補助款那以114年度的預算案來說台北市163億然後高雄市708億"},{"start":28865.191,"end":28894.52,"text":"新北市603億、桃園502億、台中530億、台南515億所以從這邊非常明顯可以看到在補助收入的部分即使明年度說哎呀我們中央會補助會增加很多很多沒有問題但是可以看到光是在補助收入的部分台北市仍然是吊車尾"},{"start":28895.18,"end":28914.557,"text":"最後一名而且啊如果我們看到統籌款加補助款就是倒數第二第二的那個項目D等於B加C的部分可以看到高雄市統籌加補助款"},{"start":28915.177,"end":28939.315,"text":"明年的金額高達1229億元而台北市的部分呢861.05億這中間差了370億元我要特別講中央的補助收入台北市六都最少我今天早上就特別講到就是為什麼要修財劃法"},{"start":28940.396,"end":28960.004,"text":"因為不修財劃法我們的中央他掌握了75%的財源然後說沒有問題我是老大哥我來補助各個縣市可是當你在補助的時候這就出現了換寡就是不換寡"},{"start":28961.485,"end":28990.54,"text":"而換不均的問題。你不平均嗎?或者是有些縣市永遠拿的很多。來,我們再來看下一頁。對不起啊,哪看到那個,就是在那個大的表。好,我們來看到。這個呢,我剛剛講的是114年度。如果我們看各年度,高雄市跟台北市的相比,"},{"start":28991.738,"end":29010.843,"text":"你就會覺得不可思議啊以一柱財源中央的補助款來說到了114年台北市跟高雄市我們講補助款喔台北市跟高雄市差了545億看到114年545億"},{"start":29015.677,"end":29020.42,"text":"但是我們之前111、112、113110年112都是200多億但是到了113年就擴大成383億到了114年又擴大成545億我想請問一下明年發生什麼樣的事情"},{"start":29034.301,"end":29049.364,"text":"明天到底發生什麼樣的事情讓台北市跟高雄市之間的差距越來越高越來越多主計長請問你們在補助款說啊對外講說補助會增加很多但是為什麼"},{"start":29051.155,"end":29078.872,"text":"台北市跟高雄市差距這麼多什麼道理報告議員其實台北市齁如果說用統籌分配稅款他一般性補助台北市114年他得到845億高雄市得到697億但是你不能說以他這個補助收入佔稅出的一個規模比率來做分配因為像台北市他的稅出的規模很大那相對的他一般補助下面的一個比率就會減少"},{"start":29079.793,"end":29092.131,"text":"那所以以總額來看,最多的是台北市啊,然後高雄市...總額怎麼會最多台北市?對,如果同114年...從仇家補助課我剛才告訴你...不是,我先...高雄高達1200多億不是,那一家計畫..."},{"start":29094.975,"end":29117.14,"text":"台北市861億不是有三種補助嘛一種是統籌分配稅一統籌分配稅是他自己的自有財源嘛然後再來是一般性補助再來就是計劃型那計劃型是部會各部會看他計劃的一個可行性去核定他並不是所以高雄市的可行性就比較高"},{"start":29118.34,"end":29127.424,"text":"台北市可行性就比較低嗎?你現在是要告訴我這些嗎?你沒辦法告訴我,對啊!因為你們就不公平啊!你怎麼告訴我呢?所以我告訴你的是,這個都是有數字、有真相。"},{"start":29136.647,"end":29151.006,"text":"但是它還有計劃型還有按財力去分配在排序的部分在排序的部分齁財力第一的話它可能只補助百分之多少它比率補助的比率計劃型補助的比率也是不一樣的你可以告訴我"},{"start":29153.001,"end":29171.478,"text":"台北市可能它的財務能力是比高雄市高那請問一下高雄市沒有比桃園高嗎?高雄市沒有比台中高嗎?可是高雄永遠永遠永遠不管在比例上都是名列前茅不是第一就是第二"},{"start":29172.509,"end":29187.958,"text":"在補助金額上永遠是第一或者是第二所以我現在跟你因為我是台北市的立委我當然要幫我們台北市講話差那麼多嘛我請問你為什麼111年差了257億114年差了545億發生什麼事情到底發生什麼事情台北市是一直我們講說財政能力台北市財政能力確實是比較高"},{"start":29199.384,"end":29226.407,"text":"那請問一下為什麼差到將近一倍之多呢?所以我主要是看蔣萬安不順眼嗎?還是看陳其邁特別順眼呢?因為我一般性的補助明明是台北市比高雄市還要多我在統籌分配稅和一般性補助我兩個匯整起來台北市是比高雄市還要多你怎麼睜眼說瞎話來回到這個台北市六度最少的部分"},{"start":29228.049,"end":29233.051,"text":"我們給你看B加C啊 對不對?統計分配稅款是你們分配的補助收入也是你們分配的台北市就861億啊你高雄市明年就達到1200多億啊"},{"start":29243.994,"end":29251.9,"text":"致水預算臺北市184億前瞻臺北市致水預算184億高雄1200億這是前瞻的致水預算114年中央補助的收入臺北市861億高雄市又1200多億是怎樣啦?把我們臺北市當世漢嗎?所以這就是為什麼我們收財劃分法為什麼如此迫切"},{"start":29273.908,"end":29276.47,"text":"全都轉在你們手上你愛給誰就給誰你喜歡給誰多一點就多一點"},{"start":29280.816,"end":29307.018,"text":"這就是為什麼要修財劃法所以這就是為什麼財政部遲遲不願意提出版本啊行政院不願意嘛啊主技術反正放在手裡面啊噢這個444跟我顏色一樣啊我比較喜歡他不住手就多一點然後這個我不喜歡他我就少一些我還沒有去跟你去比桃園跟台中勒是不是"},{"start":29309.254,"end":29331.133,"text":"這些數字不是只有114年從之前我剛才講這些數字連從111年開始你們就不公平了一直不公平到現在然後每天對外講說我的補助很多大家不要吵我會給你們糖吃那為什麼有人吃的多有人吃的少呢"},{"start":29332.042,"end":29344.627,"text":"你有沒有辦法告訴我啊為什麼114年他們的差距高雄跟台北的差距可以增加到一倍之多呢?主席長我知道你剛剛來啊我現在能把這個理由說因為主席長的關係嗎?其實我也不認為是你的關係啦那是賴總統的關係嗎?"},{"start":29354.44,"end":29372.746,"text":"所以在這邊第一個我要特別的幫我們其他的縣市包括我們台北市你的那個補助款也好或者是我們益住財源的稅數比例也好台北市長期的敬佩莫做對台北市不公平"},{"start":29373.837,"end":29392.403,"text":"第2個,財化法的修正有它的正當性及必要性,否則的話,我們就年復一年的發生這樣的狀況啊,是不是?然後你們挨補助誰就補助誰,最後其結果就是這樣的不平均,這樣的不公平啦。"},{"start":29393.163,"end":29407.789,"text":"好不好甚至我覺得114年我剛講我們今天才划法修正就算我們這個會期完全修正114年度還是你們還是手在那個錢在你們手上但是拜託你們不要這樣的分配不均謝謝"},{"start":29410.883,"end":29430.935,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員謝謝主席長因為我們現在時間是16點40我們下面還有好多委員剛剛也有委員提出要做第二輪發言所以我們要先先讓我們有兩位委員徵求在場委員的同意我們就延長開會繼續開會延長開會時間好 到大家講完"},{"start":29436.451,"end":29445.194,"text":"有沒有意見呢?沒有喔?沒意見。好,那我們就延長開會時間,等一下要準備便當,說不定還要準備宵夜。好,請高金樹美委員。"},{"start":29451.735,"end":29479.508,"text":"非常謝謝裕貞委員今天你真的非常的辛苦啊趙偉讓大家在這邊暢所欲言謝謝好了今天呢雖然是這個財政收支劃分法的這個大家在討論但是呢因為剛剛對於原住民進法補償還有總預算的部分有委員在這邊胡說八道所以呢我還是要來說一下我們剛剛草野協商才結束"},{"start":29480.208,"end":29501.756,"text":"那我也非常謝謝也辛苦我們陳主席長那你也參加然後現在又來這裡那麼我也謝謝韓院長因為政黨協商本來只有三長才能夠參加啦但是呢因為禁法補償還有總預算是跟原住民的權益有關係的所以呢特別呢就"},{"start":29502.296,"end":29518.054,"text":"提了只要是原住民身份的立委都可以參加協商那我比較遺憾的就是呢韓院長召集正式的政黨協商已經兩次了可是呢身為原住民的民進黨的立委"},{"start":29518.755,"end":29533.81,"text":"沒有一個人來參加來捍衛原住民的權益這我感到非常的不可思議我要再講一次禁法補償不是照顧也不是福利是政府侵權"},{"start":29535.271,"end":29564.11,"text":"侵犯了原住民個人的土地財產權因此中華民國的憲法是保障人民的財產權的所以我們才會在立法院來修來提原住民的禁法補償我要再講一次這個禁法補償縱使只有一個人的權益他被受損了"},{"start":29565.151,"end":29593.488,"text":"也應該要被保障啊更何況我們禁法補償領的人大概有5萬多人欸這5萬多人如果一戶有5口人的話他就相當於30幾萬的人口欸這不是少數欸所以呢請民進黨的立法委員不要在這邊可惡的在裂解在分裂原住民的族人啊好嗎"},{"start":29594.629,"end":29610.518,"text":"那麼我今天這個協商我請陳主席長上來一下謝謝請陳主席長今天的協商我感到不可思議的民進黨的黨團一開始上來的時候就講如果今天大家同意115年"},{"start":29613.86,"end":29630.388,"text":"民眾黨要提出禁法補償下修一公頃4萬塊如果大家同意這個前提的話他在114年的原住民的禁法補償案他就想辦法來編足"},{"start":29632.569,"end":29658.037,"text":"我實在不可思議耶民眾黨團會提這樣子的說法但是我們的主計長他的說法是說如果原民會真的覺得預算不足的話他們可以來想辦法用追加總預算或者是用二倍金的方法或者是用原住民綜合發展基金來處理"},{"start":29660.077,"end":29679.487,"text":"行政院跟民眾黨團似乎沒有溝通好啊我發現行政院好像比較有誠意欸竹記長你剛剛都在現場嘛 這都是你講的話嘛 對不對好所以呢我現在要來問了剛剛在這邊有一個武立法委員說"},{"start":29680.948,"end":29685.51,"text":"原民會的單位編列預算4萬,綜合發展基金會另外編列2萬但是我特別帶了綜發基金的預算書來我怎麼翻裡面都沒有看到這個預算書裡面綜合發展基金有2萬塊的預算"},{"start":29701.616,"end":29725.061,"text":"我反而看到的是在第12頁裡面其他業務收入有28億這個28億是行政院願意給禁法補償的費用然後呢由原民會的公務預算撥補到綜合發展基金裡面來給原住民嘛主計長沒有錯吧"},{"start":29726.397,"end":29742.883,"text":"報告委員,一項淨化補償的一個發放我沒有問你這個,這是我下一個問題嘛我現在問你的是第12頁裡面上面寫的其他業務收入28億1600多是辦理原住民保留地淨化補償經費的經費嘛 對不對"},{"start":29746.124,"end":29756.099,"text":"所以我要說明還沒嘛還沒說嘛這個28億是行政院給原民會的公務預算沒有錯吧"},{"start":29757.385,"end":29777.596,"text":"是公務預算通過補基金但是投資出也是透過基金所以嘛我就跟你說28億淨法補償只有園民會的公務預算編在這裡對不對然後28億再放到綜合發展基金裡面去給原住民的淨法補償嘛對不對這是基金的來源"},{"start":29780.599,"end":29786.697,"text":"你講對或不對嗎?28億是不是這樣?這是基金的來源好,我現在再告訴你一下齁"},{"start":29788.586,"end":29792.568,"text":"來,基金的設立終止。64年這個也是中發基金喔,明年都要告訴我們喔。64年台灣省政府為了輔導原住民族創業生產發展原住民族地區經濟而開辦的貸款業務。"},{"start":29811.477,"end":29838.133,"text":"然後94年左手嚴明原住民族綜合發展基金四年計劃他辦理什麼呢?原住民的貸款業務信用保證業務他還增加新的服務項目包括什麼?開辦原住民族微型經濟活動貸款輔助原住民族部落溫泉投資開發業務等等對吧?沒有錯嗎?禁法補償在哪裡?沒有"},{"start":29838.573,"end":29862.784,"text":"然後再來看一下基金的規類及屬性這個基金呢是按照預算法第四條第二項第二款第四目所定明言講出凡付出仍可收回而非用於營業之住業基金所以綜合發展基金講得很清楚"},{"start":29864.436,"end":29869.291,"text":"是要付出去可以收回,請問禁法補償出去了還能收回嗎?"},{"start":29870.871,"end":29894.027,"text":"當然不行對不對?好我們再來看一下今年3月5號行政院陳建仁前院長跟朱哲銘前主計長備詢的時候他都說可以尊重修法的可行性只要修法通過就會編列預算這是行政院當初的誠意主計長為什麼過了幾個月之後行政院態度大變你們只願意編列4萬的補償金為什麼?"},{"start":29897.268,"end":29919.763,"text":"報告委員齁 這個部分呢原住民的淨化補償在基本法裡面他第18條他有規定他基金的來源就包括政府撥補有關淨化補償相關的賠償相關的一個費用然後你從他的用途別的計劃裡面就是在基金用途他的裡面計劃也有一項是屬於淨化補償相關的一個支出所以他收入和支出兩個是相對應的只是說你這個才是"},{"start":29925.467,"end":29943.117,"text":"你講的是支出啊。我們來看一下綜合發展基金運用的相關法源依據是什麼。辦法是辦法。你的辦法不能夠逾越法律啊。我們來看一下相關法源依據。"},{"start":29944.258,"end":29966.155,"text":"原住民綜合發展基金收支保管以及運用辦法第一條他就明文規定原住民族綜合發展基金是依照預算法第21條的規定來辦理的我來看一下預算法第21條規定政府設立的特種基金除了"},{"start":29967.155,"end":29993.826,"text":"編列預算、製程依本法規定辦理之外其收支保管辦法由行政院定之並送立法院再來看一下預算法第4條第1項第2款第4目凡經付出仍可收回而非用於營業者為作業基金請問經把補償發給族人還可以收回嗎?這又符合基金可付出仍可收回的性質嗎?"},{"start":29995.146,"end":29995.326,"text":"主計長、主計長、主計長、主計長"},{"start":30021.605,"end":30044.688,"text":"主計長,你的來源已經給了28億啊,我知道啊,行政院給了啊,那我現在問你另外2萬在哪裡啊,基金有嗎?好啦,不要浪費大家的時間了啦齁,我現在總歸一句,既然禁法補償出去不可以償還,這就代表著不符合付出願可收回的要件。"},{"start":30045.308,"end":30049.012,"text":"而且這會讓基金負債這是我要講的另外一個問題它會讓基金負債更會讓基金破產所以呢我在114年預算書看到來67頁我們的綜合發展基金短促了67億"},{"start":30065.909,"end":30081.043,"text":"請問主計長114年累計短處67.7億是不是已經是當初主計總處所講的也就是朱前主計長的基金財務不敷情形要協處的狀況請問"},{"start":30083.846,"end":30095.211,"text":"要怎麼處理?你要撥補基金?基金剩餘有將近30億啦。因為整個基金我們本來是撥100多億買的。撥105年,來來來,你把資料翻出來,我現在給你資料看,105年剩了12.9億。然後呢現在你給我的資料,114年12月31號負債67億,也就是短處67億。主席長"},{"start":30112.818,"end":30118.341,"text":"說話都拿出證據好不好我現在問你的是短處67億你要怎麼處理因為前組記長說如果財務不敷情形你們會協處"},{"start":30130.507,"end":30135.65,"text":"會不會協處?會不會協處?要不要協處?要不要協處?好啦基金已經要破產基金已經要破產了不要忘記禮拜五上個禮拜五玉珍委員齁我們有提案嘛對不對原住民中和發展經濟總額不可以低於新台幣100億嘛對吧"},{"start":30160.603,"end":30180.085,"text":"還記得嗎?昨天禮拜五在院會裡面民眾黨的立法委員反對原住民的立法委員也反對我真的搞不清楚你們到底要幹嘛因為我浪費太多的時間不好意思我現在回歸到財劃法的部分"},{"start":30182.227,"end":30202.773,"text":"財政紀律法的一個規定因為我們不能不要再講財政紀律法剛剛我們在裡面協商的時候大家都講得很清楚了財政紀律法裡面你113年台電你要追加這麼多錢欸你們都可以為什麼就沒有財政紀律法然後我們的老農津貼為什麼也不依照財政條例法"},{"start":30204.894,"end":30228.222,"text":"這個莫名其妙了你們你們一直在講財政紀律財政紀律民進黨就沒有財政紀律然後回歸到原住民就有財政紀律不要這樣兩套標準好不好我現在回歸到財化法的部分103年地方制度法修正的時候恢復3地原住民族地區的自治地位但是呢也剝奪了3地原住民區的稅捐謝謝請主席長回去那個"},{"start":30231.648,"end":30251.962,"text":"財政部請上來,謝謝次長是嗎?今天來的,好好,103年地方制度法修正的時候恢復三地原住民族地區自治的地位但是呢,同樣的也剝奪了三地原住民區的稅捐還有三地原住民區的公共債務等等的財政事項"},{"start":30252.862,"end":30273.759,"text":"目前的補救方式也僅僅在地方制度法的第83之7條的規定三地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市跟三地原住民區來協調我們完全是要看直轄市的誠意雙方協商能力是非常不對等的這導致了三地原住民區的財措"},{"start":30276.421,"end":30301.281,"text":"財源的能力不如其他的鄉鎮市我們常常是處於經濟拮据的狀況難以分配專屬的統籌分配稅款僅僅只能依靠原民會的補助款在生存我們如果行政院有條文版本只要能夠解決山地原住民區的財政問題我願意來支持請問一下院板可以解決這些問題嗎?"},{"start":30303.697,"end":30326.135,"text":"目前是有提案,是有把這一部納進去了有嗎?現在行政院版本有嗎?在第幾條?這是吳委員的,吳立華吳委員的所以他也清楚知道這個部分對不對?好,那現在行政院,等一下我要問一下,不要行政院又跟吳立華委員的意見不一樣囉?"},{"start":30327.136,"end":30333.58,"text":"因為吳立華委員經法補償提6萬我們按照他的6萬通過結果行政院現在是說違憲"},{"start":30336.185,"end":30362.165,"text":"請問一下行政院的態度你現在沒辦法回答也沒關係啦我不要再用太多的時間財政收支劃分法第16條之一的特別統籌分配稅款是用中央統籌分配稅款的總額6%為額度來支應受分配地方政府緊急還有其他重大事項所需的經費我們看一下賴清德總統他在擔任行政院長的時候他說"},{"start":30364.007,"end":30382.306,"text":"106年度還有剩餘的中央特別統籌分配稅款他會分配給六都還有16縣市、198個鄉鎮市以及6個直轄市的山地原住民區這是賴清德總統做行政院長的時候他曾經做這件事情"},{"start":30382.867,"end":30412.167,"text":"所以我要問我們是不是能夠比較當時的先例未來我們就明文來規範特別統籌分配稅款一定額度必須要用於補助直轄市山地原住民區還有財政收入未達一定程度的偏鄉可以嗎這個是行政院的權責可不可以用文字入法雖然已經有人提案了但是我很怕"},{"start":30413.227,"end":30433.544,"text":"委員的提案行政院又不買單啊,然後賴總統已經是總統了,不是行政院長啊,他又有雙標啊,次長因為現在區,就是我們直轄市裡面的區啊,它的人口面積已經並同直轄市計算了,你要單獨又把它列出來,列出來以後又是一個問題"},{"start":30434.805,"end":30456.763,"text":"好啦,你現在已經在幫賴總統在開始在圓他以前做的事情了好啦,謝謝你,謝謝你的回應不過要提醒你吼,那個吳立華委員的提案吼,我會完全支持喔不過希望行政院吼,或者是賴總統不要再打臉你們自己民眾黨的立委啦,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":30459.11,"end":30459.951,"text":"主席黃國昌議員"},{"start":30490.019,"end":30515.492,"text":"現在是財政收支劃分法大體的討論我要先感謝主席等了25年的財政收支劃分法今天終於在財政委員會進入大體討論在大體討論的時候我覺得過去這段歷程當中針對財政收支劃分法我們的財政部"},{"start":30516.741,"end":30530.371,"text":"用偷自覺用偷自覺欺騙社會、欺騙國會這件事情我覺得在大體討論的時候要留下完整的紀錄為什麼我這樣說民眾黨在野的時候當時民主進步黨的主席蘇貞昌"},{"start":30539.484,"end":30568.479,"text":"帶著民眾黨所有執政的縣市長開了一場什麼記者會啊真抱歉我們就是這麼窮真抱歉我們就是這麼窮為什麼會窮過去美金這麼多年的研究早就清楚地凸顯出來了我國在地方自治的時候住友的財源偏低支出的結構僵化"},{"start":30570.322,"end":30596.662,"text":"任何在研究財政收支劃分法的學者包括綠營學者自己在裡面很清楚知道問題的關鍵在哪裡所以大聲疾呼一定要修財政收支劃分法從總統蔡英文2015年競選總統的時候她的競選證件也說要修財政收支劃分法我現在"},{"start":30599.205,"end":30616.05,"text":"賴清德總統2018年當行政院院長的時候那時候我人已經在財政委員會了他也說要修財政收支劃分法過去那幾年我們一直在問一個相同的問題民眾黨從在野的時候喊"},{"start":30622.113,"end":30635.283,"text":"要修財政收支劃分法喊到全面執政說要修財政收支劃分法到現在已經2024年了財政收支劃分法修法的版本到底啊在什麼地方從這一屆的國會開始我不斷的請教我們的財政部部長莊部長莊部長跟大家說的是什麼情緒的演繹啊"},{"start":30650.785,"end":30674.633,"text":"收集他在財委會發言過的財政收支劃分法從五大原則到六大原則講來講去答應說什麼要擴大財政規模提升地方財政自主我再說一次要擴大財政規模提升地方財政自主每一次上來質詢問財政部持續在研議啊"},{"start":30679.949,"end":30692.113,"text":"2012年的時候、在野的時候民眾黨自己就有黨團版啦把2016年全面執政的時候做出了承諾到現在2024年啊之前在財政委員會質詢都說什麼說我們持續研議從頭到尾都是騙局為什麼說從頭到尾都是騙局當你們說研議的時候就是沒有要修啦"},{"start":30708.643,"end":30710.104,"text":"用偷的用混的啊因為左榮泰講了大實話左榮泰說啊現行的版本是最棒的版本他說現行的版本是最棒的版本啊跟12年前比啊12年前的版本不就是今天的版本嗎12年前的時候說什麼非修不可"},{"start":30736.391,"end":30761.464,"text":"2016年的時候當選的時候非休不可2018年賴清德當行政院院長的時候說一定要休到2024年在我們的財政部多年的研議不斷的研議情緒的研議研議到今天終於現出原形啦現形的版本是最棒的版本過去這幾年政治人物"},{"start":30765.035,"end":30793.681,"text":"對台灣社會做的許諾是在講什麼?開空投支票!騙選票!在國會說什麼?我們持續的研議有五大原則、有六大原則研議到最後左右派現出原形了嘛現形的版本是最棒的版本為什麼現形的版本是最棒的版本?因為現形的版本讓中央政府把錢全部握在手上"},{"start":30795.99,"end":30801.875,"text":"這不正是過去12年前那時候在戰友的時候還有理想性的民主進步黨痛批了財政收支劃分法嗎我覺得這段歷程"},{"start":30823.686,"end":30844.365,"text":"一定要清楚地記錄下來一定要清楚地記錄下來接下來我相信雖然我聽到今天很多不管是民主進步黨的委員還是在野黨的委員大家的高見接下來修法的時候都是重要的參考依據"},{"start":30846.397,"end":30863.128,"text":"我也聽到了很多委員呼籲財政部要趕快提出版本但我的判斷是財政部不會提出任何版本他不會提出任何版本因為左翁泰就講了現行的版本是最棒的版本而現行的版本是25年前的版本如果真的是最棒的版本過去這20、30年為什麼大家都在疾呼要修財政收支劃分法"},{"start":30877.233,"end":30893.019,"text":"我希望我們的召委扛得住壓力啊扛得住壓力啊財政收支劃分法延宕了25年的財政收支劃分法希望可以在這個會期順利的完成整個修法的歷程以上 謝謝"},{"start":30895.43,"end":30897.291,"text":"韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員"},{"start":30917.661,"end":30941.989,"text":"各位同仁我們第一輪的廣泛討論所有登記發言的委員都已經第一輪第一輪討論所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢那我們在場我們進行第二輪的討論第二輪的廣泛討論那我們可以先給大家休息十分鐘來登記好嗎登記完以後我們就繼續第二輪的廣泛討論謝謝"},{"start":30946.172,"end":30962.998,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20"},{"start":30966.551,"end":30976.565,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":30979.206,"end":31007.392,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31011.852,"end":31030.174,"text":"財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分"},{"start":31037.131,"end":31052.299,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續�"},{"start":31053.66,"end":31081.999,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31087.039,"end":31115.22,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續�"},{"start":31119.156,"end":31125.201,"text":"全體委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31130.764,"end":31149.413,"text":"財政收支劃分法〈一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法〉20案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":31151.254,"end":31177.254,"text":"《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31179.336,"end":31194.796,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會"},{"start":31201.647,"end":31225.583,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31228.268,"end":31245.293,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31250.964,"end":31256.613,"text":"財政收支劃分法 議員羅明才等23人分別擬具"},{"start":31268.766,"end":31289.903,"text":"本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等24人分別擬具本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等24人分別擬具"},{"start":31293.046,"end":31318.108,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案："},{"start":31321.783,"end":31346.095,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續�"},{"start":31349.07,"end":31369.539,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31370.785,"end":31371.567,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31385.811,"end":31406.883,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14"},{"start":31406.903,"end":31422.511,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31422.851,"end":31435.169,"text":"一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法："},{"start":31446.287,"end":31464.953,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「"},{"start":31466.193,"end":31468.095,"text":"《財政收支劃分法》20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":31476.841,"end":31492.248,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續�"},{"start":31506.124,"end":31519.923,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":31525.486,"end":31541.914,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會"},{"start":31543.561,"end":31567.787,"text":"一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續�"},{"start":31575.788,"end":31594.09,"text":"好我們繼續開會齁我們這個第二輪廣泛討論的發言已經登記完畢喔那有三位委員登記齁我們一樣齁本會委員8加2分鐘齁非本會委員5分鐘啦好那我們請登記第一號的黃士健委員"},{"start":31611.258,"end":31616.821,"text":"謝謝主席,我請主計長跟財政部主計長跟阮次長你們兩位辛苦了"},{"start":31629.181,"end":31656.898,"text":"一整天這個我請教我先請教主計長後我們說那地方預算那麼這個分配我們有五大原則面積人口從事工業的人數從事農、漁、牧業人口數還有就是說營利事業的家數那以這些原則來制定"},{"start":31658.459,"end":31668.5,"text":"但是這五大原則之間到底孰重孰輕比例是怎麼樣?你們有研議、有結論了嗎?"},{"start":31670.475,"end":31685.146,"text":"有定案了嗎?比方說人口或者面積這個比例。我現在只能跟委員報告目前的權重。就直轄市的話,就是人口是佔50%,人口20%,面積20%,然後就是財政能力10%,另外一個是"},{"start":31693.653,"end":31694.334,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":31723.873,"end":31731.158,"text":"以這個原則來講,所以職長既然你們有你的這個原則所以我就問你嘛"},{"start":31733.266,"end":31754.505,"text":"財政部,你們有沒有打算提出我們行政院、我們院版的這個財政收支劃分法?現在正在這個跟地方政府,因為這個是涉及到地方政府的財源嘛,所以我們現在就是一直在跟地方政府在開會、在研商。還在開會、還在研商,那你有沒有打算這麼做?"},{"start":31756.387,"end":31774.399,"text":"現在是這樣,我們是希望就是一套化嘛,就是指甲式跟縣市就一套化但是因為現在各縣市政府現在提的那個版本很多,那麼指標也很多,有80個那80個那我們現在開會一直一直給他收斂一直收斂,那現在已經收斂到已經比較小的範圍了啦"},{"start":31775.74,"end":31796.336,"text":"就是剩下比如說像這個權重的問題或者是說哪一些還有像防治污染要不要進去或者是說節省的這個稅出那部分要不要進去剩下這幾項所以我們會繼續努力來看看就是說水平這部分盡量能夠有所以也就是說我們會提出願板嘛對不對"},{"start":31799.078,"end":31819.1,"text":"目前我們來努力先把大家有一個共識我個人是這樣認為啦我是認為從中央地方我們這個預算的分配齁四個字啦知識體大既然知識體大齁我們要跟地方"},{"start":31820.441,"end":31839.856,"text":"跟社會大眾說明這件事情就像國土計劃法一樣啊,也是啊。國土計劃法延伸幾十年下來,到現在就算農地保護跟土地開發的這個之間,那有很多"},{"start":31841.229,"end":31843.97,"text":"對,我們希望是越修越好啦。"},{"start":31870.899,"end":31898.88,"text":"那所以我們是希望就是說我們財劃法因為涉及到中央跟地方的財源劃分嘛所以我們是希望能夠長治久安啦不要說一天到晚在炒這個問題所以我希望就是說相關的指標要非常的公平合理啦我們是希望這樣包括垂直的包括水平的包括事權的劃分都能夠講得更清楚大家可以接受那這樣子的話就比較好處理"},{"start":31900.421,"end":31916.787,"text":"目前現在是這樣,各縣市,我們發現就是說,大家的距離還很大啦,還蠻大的啦,那所以我們這一步要耐心地慢慢去...要何止大,往同一個政黨,除非我剛才在螢幕上看錯,欸我記得!"},{"start":31919.089,"end":31931.663,"text":"國民黨版本大概就是應該高達五千八百億左右嘛就是要從我們中央政府套出來的齁但是我怎麼我怎麼那個"},{"start":31935.834,"end":31952.772,"text":"上午螢幕上看到的在跟你們對話他們好像降到3200億有這回事嗎?事實上我跟委員報告就是他後來降到雖然是3200億但事實上他是漏掉一個年久稅啦所以我們重新算了是4080啦"},{"start":31954.141,"end":31980.299,"text":"所以照他的說法是多少?4080那這個案子我認為當然啦不管是在野黨啦哪一黨都一樣我們尊重但是你要把這個可不可行要跟他們溝通不是這樣嗎?尤其我們這麼多預算到地方去這當然也是好喔地方自治嘛但是你相對"},{"start":31981.36,"end":31987.898,"text":"他們的一些法令也要跟著去做搭配、調整嘛。比如說地方制度法。"},{"start":31989.426,"end":32017.204,"text":"對預算、責任、配置是怎麼樣他們也要開始去動起來不是這樣嗎另外很重要一點就是說這樣出去以後對中央的施政的影響這部分也一定要好好去思考啦因為4000多億下出去以後我們中央可以運用的資金大概只剩下3600多億啦如果這樣子的話這個真的是影響到中央的施政真的非常嚴重"},{"start":32018.425,"end":32028.594,"text":"所以我才說要多溝通嘛我認為你們先前不管財政部也好主計處也罷我認為溝通不足耶"},{"start":32030.982,"end":32047.677,"text":"我們再繼續努力除了我們現在就是說除了就是把相關的資料我們就放在一個專區那另外讓外界清楚了解之外另外我們也希望就是說中央跟地方之間能夠有更多的機會大家再交換意見"},{"start":32048.899,"end":32063.721,"text":"過去地方收支的短處那是我們全國都關注那說實在事實上那時候確實我們地方這個收支短處確實是值得關注理解跟同情可是"},{"start":32064.602,"end":32081.101,"text":"我如果這個數字沒錯的話101年的時候地方收支短促了589億但是從105年開始4年後我們中央補助一直增加已經"},{"start":32082.142,"end":32093.965,"text":"有剩餘41億那甚至甚至到111年啊到去年剩餘更高達648億剩餘這麼多欸我們並不是說"},{"start":32103.471,"end":32117.846,"text":"主席長,你們要記得有幾個原則。第一點,中央不要抱著做之君、做之師這種過去古老的想法跟姿態啦。因為"},{"start":32119.116,"end":32132.419,"text":"即便中央權力比較大、能力比較強千萬也不要忘了大家都是從中央到地方都民選的我們一切以民意為依歸"},{"start":32133.542,"end":32154.932,"text":"所以跟地方應該是要多溝通要溝通像我剛剛講的啊那預算因為再來的重責大政如果這個調整那未來很多財源稅收由地方他們就直接收了所以這個地方"},{"start":32156.7,"end":32179.716,"text":"制度法這個要做事實的他們這一個部分要去多做理解跟調整的部分那以及第二點不要用這種對地方是施捨的心態啦我想這一次中央地方這樣有一點"},{"start":32182.505,"end":32208.004,"text":"這個槓上我覺得跟這些都有關係啦也就是說如果有良好的溝通如果互相的尊重我認為不至於這件事情這麼沒得談因為財政收支劃分法在怎麼講這些稅金在怎麼分配那麼都是為全體國人所用嘛"},{"start":32209.841,"end":32225.24,"text":"而這跟國土計劃法它所潛在的這種衝突是不一樣的我國土計劃法那個牽涉到的是那麼重大的土地劃分的利益"},{"start":32226.845,"end":32242.441,"text":"所以沒有所謂的孰是孰非誰一定對誰就一定錯那你們這個埋藏的這種衝突點那基本上是可以化解的所以我是希望說看到"},{"start":32243.809,"end":32264.942,"text":"財政部跟主計處,你們多拿出一些溝通的時間跟耐心,那多跟地方尤其多跟兩大在野黨跟他們去溝通,把可行性、不可行性都必須跟他們講清楚,好不好?"},{"start":32265.422,"end":32279.782,"text":"但是今天這個他們一下降到3200億這個部分那你認為說這個照他的說法其實是事兼宜這個部分你們也要多溝通那也要多理解好不好是謝謝委員"},{"start":32281.946,"end":32282.666,"text":"第二輪登記第二位的蔡宜委員"},{"start":32315.695,"end":32340.112,"text":"我們是不是有請次長請次長委員好次長因為今天一整天在討論這個財政收支劃分法那我想我從早上都聽我大概只有在下午黨團協商的時候不在"},{"start":32340.99,"end":32356.165,"text":"剩下的時間我都在這邊聽。事實上每個人都有對於財政收支認為一個合理的分配,但是這個分配的一個重點還是要在於我們中央政府的立場是什麼。"},{"start":32357.495,"end":32371.294,"text":"所以當然你們認為說你們現在正在彙整包括有八十幾個意見然後你們正在把這些意見逐漸在收斂中但是你認為我們這樣要收斂這些意見你看起來就長久的時間"},{"start":32374.794,"end":32392.249,"text":"這個我跟委員報告這個我們即使這個之前那個收斂從80幾個到收斂到目前這個為止其實我們也是花很多事前的功夫事前溝通因為各縣市大家都在堅持己見"},{"start":32392.97,"end":32421.841,"text":"因為都是用自己的利益、自己的這個角度去提出意見。當然啦。今天我站在政府上,我也要為了政府。大家一定會為了多爭取一點地方政府,因為過去地方的稅收跟中央比起來當然是比較來源比較少。但是如果可以有機會來多爭取一些預算的話或從籌分配的話,地方政府當然會站在自己的利益,這個都不用懷疑。但是我們不要忘了,"},{"start":32422.561,"end":32448.747,"text":"過去也曾經有地方政府他們在使用自己的預算的時候結果就會因為浪費用到差一點地方政府入不敷出才這樣破產後來也是靠中央政府來挹注來協助他們嘛 對不對那當時大概都協助了多少協助可能還要再查一下但是當時協助最多的大概就是苗栗縣"},{"start":32449.767,"end":32455.111,"text":"這幾年事實上地方,尤其是我們在講的這幾年有超徵,然後超徵的事實上都有分配到的地方都出去嘛,都多分給他們嘛"},{"start":32479.168,"end":32495.396,"text":"對,可是事實上我有幾個點啦,我一直覺得說,就是說要跟召委也是來分享,有幾個問題我們還是要做一些砂盤式的來確認。第一類就是說,我們現在要說的就是,好,中央要有"},{"start":32497.512,"end":32520.801,"text":"財源下放到地方,那是事權的部分。那我們先不要講單純的執行,我們就想縮稅機關好了。縮稅機關,比方我們想土地增值稅。來,我請教次長,現在土地增值稅是中央稅還是地方稅?地方稅。是地方稅嗎?但是如果照現在國民黨團的版本,他未來他縣市分配要從80%到100%。"},{"start":32523.274,"end":32546.247,"text":"就等於是全部給地方?全部嘛,好,如果它是地方稅,所以它是由地方的財稅局來做課徵等於是將來就是,將來的土地證實稅都負責那些啦,這是它的版本,好,這個以課稅機關我覺得還合理喔,這個我覺得好像合理,因為地方自己課嘛,但是有其他的就不一樣囉,好,我再舉一個"},{"start":32547.368,"end":32562.484,"text":"這一個營業稅,營業稅的話那國民黨的版本是過去地方是40%結果變成100%那營業稅是地方稅還是?現在國稅他是屬於國稅嘛所以他是屬於我們財政部國稅局來負責的嘛對不對但是未來這個100%都是屬於地方"},{"start":32570.052,"end":32579.806,"text":"那是不是事權也應該分出去?當然啦,所以說我們說錢跟權一定要…錢跟權嘛,對不對?我現在還沒有講到其他的一些業務的執行喔我剛單講單科稅機關"},{"start":32583.257,"end":32603.249,"text":"科稅機關就有必須,因為你這些稅未來都是由哪個人來做分配,它本來是還有一點叫做統籌分配,結果我們現在有一些版本的設計就是百分之百都整齊喔,地方金額、地方金額、地方金額對不對,變成科稅機關這個也產生了一個問題,我看到還有一個還有包括說這個貨物稅的部分呢"},{"start":32614.779,"end":32633.252,"text":"貨物稅現在是中央稅?現在中央稅目前是百分之十分給地方百分之十分給地方那如果這個未來的版本可能會改變嗎?有好多版本所以現在不知道總之這第一個就是說責任、士權的一個分配是"},{"start":32633.912,"end":32660.227,"text":"事權的分配這個現在看起來這些版本那如果你要調整這些事權的分配你必須做哪些事你要不要去改土地增值稅法你要不要去改營業稅法要不要去修法那邊不用但是但是如果齁如果是要把那個勞健保或者榮保那些要改為地方來來這個負擔的話就會涉及到修正相關的法律的問題沒有沒有市長"},{"start":32662.309,"end":32669.287,"text":"我剛講的是說事權要移動嘛如果未來我們營業稅把它改成由地方來課徵"},{"start":32672.639,"end":32692.15,"text":"這是由地方來課徵,課徵還是由國稅局跟海關來課徵,只是課完以後我們全部就下法對,這樣就不對了,這樣照我的觀念就錯了,因為如果有這個版本,未來100%是屬於地方分配如果100%是地方分配的話,這是不是要回到地方去課徵?"},{"start":32693.674,"end":32714.767,"text":"現在課徵基本上我們現在...你們還是希望保留是由你們來做統一的課徵因為你們有統一的法定解釋所以這個是適合由中央來課徵的不適合回到地方因為很多時候還是要有一個統一解釋嘛所以這就是會涉及到的對不對問題是人家在分配的時候這不管你中央他要全拿"},{"start":32715.967,"end":32742.896,"text":"他會呈現不合理他會呈現這個不合理因為現在是40%嘛現在是40%他現在增加到100%另外有些首額稅首額稅因為他稅額比較大嘛所以像有一些就會增加到25%所以才會有一些版本會增加釋出的財源會達到7000多億的原因在這裡因為他把首額稅的那個比分出去的比重從10%拉到25%拉得很高啦"},{"start":32745.617,"end":32754.839,"text":"啊這樣子當然就會嚴重衝擊中央的施政啊我看齁這一個以現在我們大概101年的時候地方政府齁他的財政狀況是最差的整個地方政府總共負債了"},{"start":32769.008,"end":32771.49,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":32788.166,"end":32792.83,"text":"109年184億、110年189億、111年463億、112年648億市長你可以說明一下為什麼在108年後有這樣的一個翻轉地方政府的財政狀況有明顯的改善這個主要是什麼原因?最主要是因為稅收增加"},{"start":32812.205,"end":32827.418,"text":"因為我剛才講就是說我們現在分配的就是所謂稅是分配10%嘛然後在營業稅是40%嘛然後在貨物稅10%所以只要這幾個稅目增加的話就是他們的分配的就會增加"},{"start":32828.078,"end":32855.054,"text":"所以他們的財政狀況就改善很多那相反的中央在同一個期間同一個期間大概就從101年到112年只有3年是有剩餘的其他的全部都是赤字所以現在如果是從目前的這樣來看的話這地方目前的財政狀況其實是比中央還要穩健目前是這樣"},{"start":32856.355,"end":32861.379,"text":"他請你的說法就是說事實上中央透過補助的方式給地方有大力的幫忙啊。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。"},{"start":32873.689,"end":32888.514,"text":"而我們就打中央透過爭取那這一件事情上市長你的看法到底是怎樣?就是說同樣一個預算的執行由中央來執行或者是由地方他自己把錢拿回去他自己去執行你認為這個會有什麼差異嗎?"},{"start":32891.055,"end":32906.604,"text":"現在是這樣子,因為現在都是,它是部分出去啦,部分出去大部分都是比例比如說百分之多少百分之多少出去,那個系統現在全部都是中央在負責所以弄到地方以後,它每一個地方都要有一套系統,所以這個會很複雜"},{"start":32909.125,"end":32931.44,"text":"會很麻煩,因為現在統一有國稅局、基層,那就在這個程序上、在成本上都便利很多以前再弄到各縣市,那真的複雜,以前就是各縣市那市長你們有盤整,就是說這個市權的部分,你認為你們有盤整出哪些是屬於適合下放地方?"},{"start":32932.359,"end":32957.132,"text":"如果他們要編了更多的一個統籌分配的預算那你現在有盤偵哪些事權可能會需要下放地方?這個可能要主席總書來回答不過我據我了解就是比如說像這個計畫型補助計畫型補助以前有中央有補助給他那現在就是因為我一般的統籌分配稅款我給他很多了嘛所以我這個計畫型補助我就不給了"},{"start":32958.252,"end":32981.045,"text":"另外可能就是說老健寶或者是龍寶也是一樣我就可以把它收回來就是有地方自己負擔一定要用這種調整要不然中央沒辦法可是市長我覺得你剛剛列舉啦可是我覺得說用列舉的方式是還不足你必須要去開始盤點對當然因為現在很明顯的嘛現在事實上"},{"start":32981.745,"end":33001.997,"text":"不管是執政黨或者是在野黨,大家都對統籌分配,每個人都有他的看法。看起來,以召委我們現在這麼積極的態度,你應該也是會緊鑼密鼓地在排審。所以我覺得說你應該要列舉,說到底有哪些事權會隨著統籌分配的改變。"},{"start":33002.817,"end":33025.276,"text":"市全會也需要調整。我們這一部分我們再跟主席總署這邊來對,你們應該是要溝通然後要開始列出來然後讓大家去總之讓一些地方政府也要知道說我未來這些統籌分配哪一些工作未來可能中央就必須要就直接變成說醫療是地方要做的事情所以我是希望啦"},{"start":33026.519,"end":33053.566,"text":"昨天我們討論了很多今天從早上到現在雖然我們發現很多事情它的答案還是還是一個不清晰的狀況所以我希望說昨天我們等的就是說因為我這樣時間一直超過一直超過嘛我會覺得說尊重宗家編委員如果有來沒來的話不然我等到他來你可以登記第三輪好不好也要等宗家編來啊"},{"start":33057.237,"end":33084.128,"text":"不是啦 趙薇還是說您的下一齣拍攝我們繼續討論啦好不好我們一定會充分討論不用擔心喔充分討論對對對 一定會對啦 我們就是說我們這次討論到這裡事實上可是我們還是需要我第一次講的時候我們需要很多資料耶那些資料我們到底說你們後面分配會變怎麼樣這我們都一定要搞清楚啊好不好好 趙薇我是覺得看得到"},{"start":33085.889,"end":33093.716,"text":"幫你意見寫下,我們要做一個結論,會會會,好,謝謝,謝謝蔡議員好,第二輪討論齁,我們接著請登記第三號的鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌不在齁,好,我們廣泛討論第二輪討論現在告一個段落齁,那我們在場委員我們還要發表意見的第三輪討論要嗎?"},{"start":33118.052,"end":33133.219,"text":"蔡議員你要第三輪委員,第三輪討論?那我們就第三輪讓你...那就不討論了齁?好,那我做個結論,我會去,我會做個結論,我們做個結論,你做一下齁?"},{"start":33137.421,"end":33137.781,"text":"財政部委員會議"},{"start":33157.668,"end":33173.698,"text":"剛剛蔡議員也說了相關的比如說第一個當然最希望你們趕快提出版本那還沒有提出版本的同時在我們下次修法以前下下週的時候你們要提出相關的這個說法到底影響了什麼事情什麼事情什麼事情寫清楚嘛讓委員了解"},{"start":33174.358,"end":33202.322,"text":"那第二個這個隨著財政收支方法的這個修訂內政部的地方制度法還有財政部的地方稅法通則還有公債法這一部分很多人都提出說應該要一併修正所以請相關的部會內政部今天也有來嘛趕快提出你們的修法版本到各個委員會去我們財政收支方法是牽頭我們往前修你們要趕快跟上這個才符合委員們的期待喔"},{"start":33202.842,"end":33231.164,"text":"那第三個就是因為剛剛早上蔡委員也有提到這個修法還適當可能牽涉到內政部、環境部以及農業部所以我們下次修法的時候我們要請這相關部會都要列席而且要請至少次長如果部長沒有辦法至少次長以上的層級要列席這是結論那在場登記所有登記委員都已經這個發言完畢還有沒有委員要提出"},{"start":33232.085,"end":33232.865,"text":"財政收支劃分法的修正草案有22案我們會擇期繼續審查那我們"},{"start":33261.335,"end":33280.588,"text":"變更財政委員會第3次全體委員會會議議程我們還有另外發通知單意思就是說星期三大家就因為今天已經炒飯非常充分了也沒有委員繼續在登記我想廣泛討論就告一個段落然後星期四的時候我們就由金管會進行金管會的議程我們會再開一次再發一次通知單各部會還有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":33289.548,"end":33292.43,"text":"財政部版本趕快再送進來你們趕快提出版本還有兩個禮拜下禮拜我們繼續"},{"start":33316.977,"end":33318.918,"text":"好,謝謝。還有預備便當,大家去拿喔。"},{"start":33348.507,"end":33365.502,"text":"20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":33369.991,"end":33388.487,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15"},{"start":33393.319,"end":33403.69,"text":"20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"}]}},{"id":"155820","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155820","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0c1b13d2d821a4c23f6b87f55f7374071eccf4f5c33c47a58ccafdc092bcebbf35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:40:25 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no主席沒有支持我主席如果支持我那主席請回答我請主席回答我要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢羅志強你反對公聽會嗎羅志強你反對公聽會嗎"},{"start":26.565,"end":46.919,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":58.872,"end":79.528,"text":"主席各位委員政府官員們還有在場和線上關心憲法訴訟法修正的先生女士還有媒體記者們大家好那接下來呢就由我來說明我與林思敏委員所共同提案的憲法訴訟法的修正內容和理由以供大家了解我們知道我們中華民國憲法徵修條文明定大法官15人"},{"start":80.549,"end":109.205,"text":"那目的就是為了要確保憲法法庭在審理重大事件案件的時候能夠涵蓋多元意見充分考量各種不同的法律見解避免單一或少數觀點會主導裁判導致可能做成偏頗的裁判而影響到憲法裁判的公信力和公正性然而我國憲法訴訟法並沒有像其他外國的法律規定一樣有明定而最低的法定出席人數和做成同意"},{"start":109.785,"end":114.047,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條"},{"start":131.357,"end":135.199,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":149.088,"end":170.162,"text":"因此這一次的修法基本上是希望能夠健全我們憲法法庭的制度特別是我們接下來可能即將有出現有大法官有出缺的狀況只剩下8位大法官我們有15位大法官7位大法官卸任只剩下8位大法官在任"},{"start":171.38,"end":174.202,"text":"那麼如果這個中間又出現有提前辭任死亡或者是這個因為沒有辦法這個通過補足那個大法官的名額將出現可能會有極少數的兩三位或三四位大法官就可能會做成宣告法律違憲的憲法裁判"},{"start":191.095,"end":216.936,"text":"那麼在這樣的一個情況之下極有可能會由少數的大法官就會操控法律違憲宣告於會由極少數大法官就可以去操控法律違憲與否的情形這個是與我們憲法徵修條文明天要有15位大法官來參與審議的這個制度是相違背的那麼我在這裡我要再次強調"},{"start":218.835,"end":222.018,"text":"憲法法庭於審理和決議的過程當中必須要足夠多數大法官人數出席以及達到多數門檻的同意那麼才能夠實踐更高程度的憲法裁判的嚴謹性要求那麼在這次的本條"},{"start":234.346,"end":256.276,"text":"這個條文的修正絕對不會像司法院報告中所說的會癱瘓釋憲制度會損害人民的救濟權利相反的這次的修正案的是在健全釋憲制度反對少數大法官專斷裁判維護憲政秩序捍衛人民的申請釋憲權利那麼同時我也認為司法院的擔心根本是多餘的話錯重點了超錯心了"},{"start":258.317,"end":279.85,"text":"你們應該煩惱的是賴總統狠狠地會濫用大法官的提名權而提出了一群不適格不適任的大法官候選人使得立法院難以接受並且同意這份名單這才是造成憲法法庭癱瘓的最主要的原因我想我一再重申寧缺勿濫是立法院審查重要人事案的基本原則"},{"start":281.397,"end":305.637,"text":"那本期也相信只要是被庭人的資格是適任的是適合的而不是酬庸不是打手那立法院會有什麼理由不同意那麼最後呢本期要再講我因為還有修正另外一條是95條本條本法修正條文施行日期是自公佈日期即刻實施那麼這條的立法目的無他其實就是防小人防無賴的條款"},{"start":307.938,"end":336.135,"text":"本席希望司法院不要有樣學樣學著模仿行政院不立即去施行立法院所通過的NCC組織法條文竟耍些玩弄法律的小人作風所以這個條文的制定基本上就是防小人條款最後我也懇請在座的各位委員能夠支持本席與林世民委員共同所提的憲法訴訟法第四條和第十五條修正案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"155816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0360e7ebb79359d22f6b87f55f7374071eccf4f5c33c47a58264d6e8ebc4b9b055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:09:17 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我 我不是 因為你剛講那樣我其實聽了我不是很認同啦你聽了我根本不認同你希望今天就出委員會除非我口齒不清不然我剛講的很清楚就是你排什麼議員你今天要出委員會副總裁下令你今天要出委員會跟那個立法院執行司法一樣你現在就是要副總裁下令今天你照國立法院執行司法今天要出委員會"},{"start":240.736,"end":243.677,"text":"我不是沒意思,我是經驗談啊!每次副總裁出現,我們的談話時間就會被加速啊!發言時間就會被截斷啊!很好!"},{"start":260.402,"end":289.151,"text":"我跟你一樣你也不受任何人指揮嘛我們都一樣啊還是你要在這邊告訴我們你受害性的人指揮我們都不受任何人的指揮我們就在這邊把立法院的工作做好就這樣而已嘛啊不要每次都扣帽子扣我的帽子所以你今天不會受副總統的要求今天出委員會他根本沒有跟我講什麼啊我講這個莫名其妙他現在打電話在你手機留言了我的手機沒有任何來電啦你不要在那邊亂亂自作戰啦"},{"start":290.9,"end":305.569,"text":"我的手機沒有任何人的來電你不要在那邊認知作戰這樣不太好啦不管啦 沈委員你講你的認知作戰不要講那些啦齁"},{"start":309.915,"end":322.235,"text":"我跟你講齁又來了不要今天我們是司法法制委員會不要在那邊扯什麼國家什麼有的沒有不要再扯我們可不可以把今天議程走完"},{"start":326.48,"end":341.935,"text":"中召委員我已經回答完畢了我們就做我們個人該做的事那你也不要在那邊亂扯說什麼要打電話來跟我指示沒有那個事啦中召委那個發言的時間到了沒有意見那請問"}]}},{"id":"155815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f019f207c2f0e80aeed42df3203622d4e3eccf4f5c33c47a580ee1a9492a26f8aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:08:28 - 11:14:07","影片長度":"00:05:39","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T11:08:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T11:14:07+08:00","duration":339,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.69284375,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.148468750000001,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.076593750000001,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.25659375,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.387218750000002,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.54721875,"end":20.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.48346875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.64346875,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.85409375,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.90471875,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.051593750000002,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.31284375,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.16909375,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.62034375,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.15596875,"end":38.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.26909375,"end":43.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.12971875,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.220343750000005,"end":57.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.97534375,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.32534375,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.767843750000004,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.03659375000001,"end":176.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.89784375000002,"end":327.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.80659375000005,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.82346875,"end":331.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.55721875,"end":333.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.44284375,"end":335.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.59034375000005,"end":338.96534375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":28.322,"text":"那個吳委員不好意思啊那個吳立凡委員、高金委員請這個民眾徐曉欣委員大家有意見可以來簽名我會讓大家上所欲言喔對對好你們可以上來發言請簽名喔欸我在這裡啊我們現在讓吳立凡委員跟高金素梅委員都有發言的時間"},{"start":32.48,"end":59.414,"text":"好。讓他們講2分鐘。小新請等一下。沒問題。你安靜你安靜。好。我知道大家都很認真爭取原住民的預算喔。接著我們請取小新委員發言。委員你剛剛已經發言過了。等一下請坐。好。你可以找內政委員。尊重我們一下好不好。好。也可以回。好了啦。"},{"start":60.922,"end":90.205,"text":"OK 那我們你等一下可以上來講喔 委員等一下有你發言的時間喔好 接著請許曉欣委員做會議新聞謝謝主席喔 站在這邊老半天終於輪到我那呢剛才聽到很多委員的論述呢我覺得非常奇怪 很多委員一直講說什麼哎呀 不審預算所以呢不要審財劃法啊等等的第一件事情是根本就沒有不審預算的問題而是要求行政院在三讀通過的法案裡面要依法行政"},{"start":91.425,"end":97.407,"text":"現在這個預算呢總預算還在協商當中我們不管是上個禮拜這個禮拜下個禮拜都還在進行協商那協商結束之後自然就會進入到審查的階段那這有什麼好視為不審或是黨或是刪除的呢要求行政院對於三讀通過的法案負責對農民、原住民、醫護人員多加照顧這不就是我們本來立法委員應該要"},{"start":119.073,"end":129.339,"text":"要做的監督職責嗎再來我覺得很奇怪啊立法委員是怎麼回事啊我們只能一次做一件事情嗎我們是這麼沒有能力的一群人嗎我們沒有預算在審查的時候我們就不能修法那修法的時候就不能審預算不是啊 這兩個事情是可以並進的啊"},{"start":139.764,"end":147.372,"text":"有一大群人他們正在為了整個預算正在協商與此同時我們審查財政收支劃分收支法怎麼了嗎沒有什麼啊預算歸預算、法案歸法案兩者並進到底有什麼不行還是說現在有些委員覺得整個預算就是沒有辦法進來了今年就是不會省了"},{"start":159.344,"end":175.763,"text":"對自己這麼沒有信心嗎?我倒是對民眾黨很有信心啊我覺得總預算最後是一定會審的我們也很期待接下來的審查只不過現在還在協商階段而已就有必要這麼急嗎?反而是法案很急啊為什麼?因為"},{"start":176.964,"end":184.59,"text":"法案的部分討論這麼多年了財化法既然已經討論這麼多年那讓它繼續討論下去是延續過去討論的基礎那能不討論嗎既然過去把它視為一個這麼重要的議題那現在難道就不重要了嗎所以我覺得預算總預算歸總預算那裡正在協商不要去打擾人家但是不等同於我們現在的財政收支劃分法不能去做審查這是兩件不同的事情"},{"start":205.166,"end":209.65,"text":"再來我要特別講因為為什麼要審查這個財政收支劃分法因為只依靠補助會有更不公平的問題它沒有辦法形成一個制度比方說114年的預算中央預支的部分如果我們把六都來比較統籌補助款、統籌分配款加上補助款高雄市拿到多少?"},{"start":228.345,"end":230.927,"text":"1229億台北市是多少呢861億兩者相差了370億如果我們只看補助的收入的部分不看統籌分配款的話台北市只拿到了163億高雄拿到了708億"},{"start":248.618,"end":264.776,"text":"同樣都是直轄市卻差這麼多所以要補助來替代統籌分配款變成是中央政府喜歡給誰多少錢就給多少錢這對各縣市來說都是不公平的為什麼我們不把它法制化、制度化讓這個法律能夠公平"},{"start":266.578,"end":293.759,"text":"公平的按照法律規則去分配給不同的縣市而不是只依賴於每年好像我們都要把行政院當皇帝看然後呢各縣市政府要像把他當皇帝一樣希望他們來施捨我們一點預算變成呢今天我中央說喜歡你這個縣市我就多給你一點錢多補助你一點不喜歡你那些縣市呢我就少給你一點錢我覺得這是不對的所以應該要回到財政收支劃分法裡面"},{"start":294.68,"end":297.642,"text":"財政收支劃分法要繼續快速努力的審議,召集不同"},{"start":316.274,"end":338.019,"text":"各縣市的意見不同的版本大家一起坐下來好好談這個跟總預算沒有太大的關係持續的討論才能有更好的財政收支劃分法謝謝謝謝我們許小新委員的會議詢問了現在主席宣布我們要先休息休息十分鐘讓官員"}]}},{"id":"155814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0faa1268b90628a28d42df3203622d4e3eccf4f5c33c47a58b70b6df063f2d9295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T10:59:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T11:08:16+08:00","duration":526,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.283468750000001,"end":5.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":7.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.704718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.61596875,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.442218750000002,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.26034375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.47846875,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.76909375,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.43971875,"end":30.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.215968750000002,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.58284375,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.502218750000004,"end":38.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.95721875,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.88034375,"end":48.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.710968750000006,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.16221875,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.67659375,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.29596875,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.02971875,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.20659375000001,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.61971875,"end":68.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.67409375,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.74971875,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.48784375000001,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.25534375000001,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.46159375,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.67909375,"end":92.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.21471875,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.45034375,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.74096875000001,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.05721875,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.12846875000001,"end":107.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.65534375,"end":112.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.85284375,"end":114.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.96221875,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.97846875,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.49721875,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.61909375,"end":129.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.82909375,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":140.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.71346875,"end":142.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.05909375000002,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.61159375,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.77971875,"end":151.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.00721875000002,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.76221875000002,"end":154.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.41159375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.97221875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.35159375,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.12346875,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.76846875,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.83971875,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.63659375,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.34909375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.22221875000002,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.87596875,"end":183.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.25534375,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.85846875000001,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.17034375,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.13971875000001,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.06346875,"end":198.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.25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禁法鋪藏 從無到有所有的法律都是經過我的手上的在這邊特別拜託大家 以上好 謝謝鄭天才委員 謝謝可以簽名 等一下有理發言時間接著我們請許曉欣委員做會議詢問"}]}},{"id":"155813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f017e023b907fb3cd4d42df3203622d4e3eccf4f5c33c47a58fbc34bea683b19dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:55:05 - 10:59:20","影片長度":"00:04:15","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T10:47:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T10:54:55+08:00","duration":439,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3134687500000002,"end":3.5915937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.16534375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.46534375,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.67596875,"end":72.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.96471875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.31846875000001,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.57096875,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.24471875,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.27784375,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.33471875000001,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.36409375000001,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.60346875,"end":117.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.30784375,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.37909375000001,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.31971875,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.34909375000001,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.87596875000001,"end":129.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.54221875000002,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.24659375000002,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.83659375000002,"end":137.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.25409375,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.89096875,"end":140.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.81909375,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.60784375,"end":150.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.33221875,"end":156.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.22159375,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.24471875,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.45971875,"end":176.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.62346875,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.83846875,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.82971875,"end":182.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.15846875000003,"end":183.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.32284375,"end":185.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.43659375000001,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.61346875,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.41909375,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.65846875000003,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.11659375000002,"end":211.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.66034375,"end":212.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.17909375000002,"end":214.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.47846875000002,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.30909375000002,"end":226.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.20221875000001,"end":240.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.63034375,"end":247.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.97534375,"end":251.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.48534375000003,"end":253.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.79721875,"end":256.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.83471875000004,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.36534375,"end":267.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.24221875,"end":271.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.95471875000004,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.33409375,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.32971875000004,"end":276.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.96659375,"end":278.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.50221875,"end":280.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.30784375,"end":289.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.36534375,"end":302.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.93721875,"end":309.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.22721875,"end":311.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.03284375000004,"end":317.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.51284375,"end":326.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.93346875000003,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.37159375000005,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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one一個案例有九位大法官參與評議而九位大法官的二分之一也是五位啊這是史上唯一的一案"},{"start":256.175,"end":257.837,"text":"你們說的既然極端案例在哪裡你舉一個案例來聽聽一個就好一個就好就數字說話哪一個案例哪一個判例"},{"start":268.57,"end":280.154,"text":"最後還是要懇切的說癱瘓了憲法法庭沒有辦法審議的是98%的人民申請憲法的解釋案這是人民的權利新制之後98% 1336件是人民權利申請憲法解釋"},{"start":295.137,"end":314.045,"text":"如果憲法法庭沒了癱瘓了組不成了連受理都沒有辦法大家想看看任何進步性的憲政觀點沒有辦法在台灣民主社會法治社會被實現想想同婚法案就好"},{"start":315.287,"end":332.044,"text":"同婚法案多少年輕世代台灣進步性的思維台灣成為亞洲第一個讓同婚合法的國家如果吳委員現在強行把現有緣額法定緣額然後提高到三分之二"},{"start":333.123,"end":345.132,"text":"同婚法案沒有辦法通過那跟本案無關吼可不可以跟本案無關的話那為什麼今天本案有講廢紙嗎本案有講廢紙嗎本案有你怎麼可以指著我的發言跟本案無關剛剛一堆委員跟來那個吳委員你聽我講一下吼你先聽我講一下"},{"start":357.401,"end":373.03,"text":"我跟你們講齁我跟你們講如果你三分鐘內你要講什麼我沒有意見那現在已經超過後面還有兩位委員那可不可以不要停好那我們下一位我們下一位請林思敏委員發言"}]}},{"id":"155807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f02ba0de65552e820af6b87f55f7374071eccf4f5c33c47a58d9e721ab62ee9eee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:54:19 - 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大家好我想修改這個法律啦 阿沒這麼恐怖 也不用這麼緊張啦 一個心態 剛才 雖然說要多聽一些民意 是啊 我們就是聽到民意後 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審裡面你這個法律的正當程序有沒有去嚴守嘛所以我們常常會去講大法官或者是現在的憲法法庭會跟你講說你這個整個法律的正當程序你沒有去遵守"},{"start":82.176,"end":84.699,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第十四條條文修正草案案案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":101.719,"end":121.298,"text":"甚至於憲法法庭做出來的判決內容裡面提供當事人一個救濟的管道說:「好,你用我憲法法庭的判決的一個意旨你可以去申請再審。」這三個嘛!所以任何不管是過去的大法官會議解釋或現在的憲法法庭所做出來的判決裡面其實你可以去挑剔他"},{"start":125.262,"end":132.245,"text":"可是呢他達到一個叫做救濟人民救濟的一個功能啊我剛為什麼去肯認二委員的一個提案就是說其實你要講說高的一個門檻裡面啊讓他更多元的一個聲音我不能去講你不對啊所以我才跟你講說我可以去肯認你的一個用心但是也不要忘記啊那不是真理啊你說你留學德國"},{"start":154.414,"end":178.582,"text":"德國的憲法法庭幾個人?九個欸!九個欸!講錯了!德國是15到16美國、加拿大跟韓國他們明文規定的他們憲法法庭的法官是九個我們在徵修條文裡面我們也放了15個"},{"start":180.592,"end":195.949,"text":"德國波蘭捷克15到16這個修正我把美國的放到那個地方去但是他們的15到16裡面你要記住喔他們是分庭喔他們也不是一次15到16去做合議喔"},{"start":197.693,"end":217.109,"text":"這個委員應該是很簡單的一個common sense他們分好幾個庭各個法庭裡面是擁有獨立的權限來處理這一些所以我要講的就是說你看大法官常常做出一個判決憲法法庭111年做出的判決是什麼說你們這個立法院立出來的法律"},{"start":218.223,"end":235.492,"text":"你怎麼警察可以看到酒駕的部分你就給人家抓來抽血所以呢要求做出的憲法判決要求我們立法院去限期修法改正這對不對這當然對嘛我們就把它給改正過來了嘛所以就是跟我提到的所謂的補充正當程序嘛"},{"start":236.392,"end":246.477,"text":"另外你去看看說道亞關在去年做出的一個異國的父母到底可不可以把壽司先務犬這些小孩把他帶到國外去道亞關說ちょっと待會兒所以他去做出一個暫時的處分這對不對這當然也對啊他就把你的原財定把你給廢棄掉了提供當事人更好的一個救濟的一個途徑啊那接下來就跟我講的花蓮那一個判決啦"},{"start":263.465,"end":276.536,"text":"所以我要講出來的就是說每一次立法院只要你覺得說憲法法庭或大法官會議做出來不符合立法院的一個意思的話你就要修理人家上次你說1999年立法院就是去擴權自己去自肥 國大自己去自肥把國大自己"},{"start":288.12,"end":313.297,"text":"自己延期然後立法委員自己也賺到就變成國大跟立委一起一起大家來自肥那大法官當然幫你宣告你違憲啊宣告違憲以後我們就要給人家砍說我人我幫你廢掉大法官會議我砍你的薪水啊到最後呢到最後呢民意還是會反撲啦但是我是覺得說大家還是講講道理啦涉及到這麼大的一個衝擊的一個案件"},{"start":314.418,"end":319.921,"text":"有道理就好好講,多聽聽社會的一個意見,否則的話我們去看看30跟另外在我們院會裡面30跟43這個雙三分之二這個部分已經進步二讀了,已經進步二讀了,所以我期待這個地方可以多聽聽外界的一個看法,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"155803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f07ab971fad7ebd475d42df3203622d4e350be7fc235aa9711356d507e2e3f6be45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:38:20 - 10:46:37","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T10:38:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T10:46:37+08:00","duration":497,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.30096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.6003437500000002,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.084093750000001,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.079093750000002,"end":19.234718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.96034375,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.37784375,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.11159375,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.00159375,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.794093750000002,"end":32.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.35909375,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.62034375,"end":37.172843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.89846875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.14721875,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.95284375,"end":42.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.674093750000004,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.70721875,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.27971875,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.384718750000005,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.35909375000001,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.89784375,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.45034375,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.02346875,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.09409375,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.56784375000001,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.83159375000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.61471875000001,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.26409375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.52534375000002,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.19159375,"end":133.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.61284375,"end":138.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.21596875,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.53159375,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.75034375,"end":156.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.11596875,"end":168.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.86096875,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.71721875,"end":173.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.77596875,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.42909375000002,"end":180.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.08284375000002,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.25096875,"end":188.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.06471875000003,"end":192.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.70971875,"end":193.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.05971875,"end":195.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.61221875,"end":196.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.96221875,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.23221875000002,"end":198.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.63284375,"end":214.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.79221875000002,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.52534375000002,"end":212.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.15346875,"end":216.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.49909375000001,"end":220.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.51534375000003,"end":230.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.76284375,"end":232.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.56846875000002,"end":235.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.07846875,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.69596875000002,"end":258.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.29846875000004,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.49659375000005,"end":262.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.60596875000005,"end":264.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.59284375000004,"end":274.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.14409375,"end":281.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.50596875,"end":294.14534375},{"speak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事權的角度"},{"start":442.907,"end":467.241,"text":"我必須說下次我真的建立代委員從私權的角度來思考財化法的修改方式目標是建構中央跟地方政府的夥伴關係而不是只是想把錢拿給地方而已你拿錢給地方而已你以後我跟你講講白一點換成你國民黨將來如果有機會執政的話搞不好你還要再修法一次我講白一點除非你要做萬年的地方黨"},{"start":469.132,"end":495.782,"text":"這體制不容破壞啊這體制破壞啊會形成大家的共業啊毀了這個體制之後癱瘓了中央之後對加拿大沒好處中央也沒拿到地方也沒拿到中央也沒有辦法運作希望我的國問程度中文系的主席能夠聽得懂謝謝郭國文委員剛剛這已經是第4位委員提到財地方支出法要修正請內政部一定要記得趕快提出地方支出法相關的這個修正"}]}},{"id":"155802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f08a43c48ebbb8dfe2d42df3203622d4e350be7fc235aa9711ce2844124dec03b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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民進黨立法委員也不用說那些什麼會侵害損害人民的憲法救濟權我要再舉個數字我們一年大概有四五千件的人民申請事件案"},{"start":144.636,"end":169.713,"text":"一百一十二年被駁回率就是大法官不受理的案件的比率高達百分之九十二一百一十一年則是百分之九十七的人民的申請事件案件是不受理的以現在一百一十一年跟一百一十二年兩個年度來看大法官一年只做二十個憲法裁判哪只做二十個憲法判決"},{"start":171.158,"end":190.352,"text":"能夠被大法官選中去審查的鳳毛麟角所以不要在那裡說為什麼損害人民基本權利15個大法官的時候他的不受理率都高達92%現在只剩下8個大法官你認為他有足夠的能力再去審查那麼多案子嗎我告訴你到時候不不受理率會更高我要再講的就是這個案子"},{"start":197.758,"end":222.133,"text":"明定憲法大法法庭大法官人數把它定在15人這是我們憲法的要求啊我只修這個條文我有修說是跟迴避的人數要扣除嗎要算在內嗎沒有啊所以今天司法院的報告書也是亂寫我不客氣的講要奉承上意也不是奉承上意到這種程度最後"},{"start":226.397,"end":242.558,"text":"一個很簡單的事情一個很簡單的條文從過去的法治史上面到現在很多的法律學者都有投書在清楚不過的道理民進黨委員就是要不斷的拖延程序杯葛議事"},{"start":243.94,"end":250.025,"text":"今天是說他們沒有霸占主席台啦也沒有這個起肢體衝突這邊我要感謝他們可是呢不斷的議事的發言討論然後還要開公聽會什麼的就是很清楚的事情不要拿那些什麼一大堆什麼律師團體去連署的國會改革法案不是一樣嗎上百位什麼學者律師團體連署都是你們的側翼啊不好意思說真的是就是這樣"},{"start":271.4,"end":271.54,"text":"接下來我們請莊委員"}]}},{"id":"155801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0b2aa1a46288c6a67d42df3203622d4e350be7fc235aa97119b76f11e714d12295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:27:25 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T10:27:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T10:32:09+08:00","duration":284,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.83659375,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.96471875,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.48596875,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.79659375,"end":177.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.34909375,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.71096875,"end":199.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.72971875000002,"end":224.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.79721875,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.03659375,"end":272.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.23721875,"end":283.39596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.415,"end":19.955,"text":"謝謝主席本席大概是這個本會期現在開議之後第一次在這個發言台但是過去4年本席都在財政委員會也跟我們許多這個資深的財政委員們一起來討論有關財政的部分我想財政的部分應該是最沒有藍綠的問題但是他"},{"start":22.117,"end":31.183,"text":"在權力的分配也就是錢的分配之外其實事權的分配也非常重要不過在會議詢問之前本席想先做一下說明因為前面剛剛賴氏寶委員有特別提到是說現在民進黨的版本是一個所謂N次的版本我覺得這樣的一個講法是不恰當的因為我必須說除了過去8年"},{"start":44.971,"end":58.845,"text":"蔡英文總統執政之外再往前推這個執政的這個是馬英九再往前推當然就是陳水扁總統再往前推呢就是李登輝總統我要講的就是其實民進黨、國民黨其實分別都有執政那這個財化法的過程當中"},{"start":63.389,"end":83.866,"text":"馬英九執政的時候他也沒有試圖要來做修正的話那麼現在如果要講這個所謂N次的版本的話那麼國民黨恐怕也在其中所以我認為在這個部分必須要先說明另外當然就是有關於委員們提到的這個台南啦、高雄啦這個所謂"},{"start":85.387,"end":111.247,"text":"在統籌分配稅款當中都是名列前茅我覺得這個說法當然就是一個錯誤的假訊息我們都知道很多的預算它其實還包含申請型的、競爭型的那麼台北市其實我自己現在也居住在台北市台北市身為首都那麼它當然得天獨厚的它擁有了許多在預算上面尤其是公共建設上面的相關的"},{"start":112.367,"end":136.198,"text":"這個所謂大家知道的為了建設首都那麼預算的預注都是比較多的但是其他競爭型的或者是申請型的偏鄉比如包括花蓮或者是南部地區或者是中部這些需要建設的地區他就會來做競爭其實這樣放在一起比較其實不合理的我知道台北市有委員所提出來的版本"},{"start":137.318,"end":151.887,"text":"針對首都就要多加3%可是統籌分配稅款大家攤開來一看就知道台北市永遠都是第一名第一名的城市還要多加3%這個合理嗎最後剩下30秒的時間我所要做的會議詢問當然就是"},{"start":155.569,"end":181.762,"text":"現在時間來到了10月21號就是剩下兩個月又十天我們114年度的總預算就要截止我們的法定審理的時間但是剛剛提出來的統籌分配稅款的相關的地方財政收支劃分法它急嗎?也許地方上還有許多包括市權隨著"},{"start":185.836,"end":198.994,"text":"經費預算的轉移必須要好好來討論的地方政府當你拿到這些錢之後你怎麼處理大家關注的交通建設還有就是社會福利建設的這些預算"},{"start":199.875,"end":219.773,"text":"本期要詢問的就是當現在我們還在面臨總預算114年度只剩下兩個月又十天的時間才能審查為什麼現在要來特別去講這個各個縣市包括市權隨著錢的轉移的時候還沒有討論好的時候地方怎麼樣來處理這些因為"},{"start":227.563,"end":252.692,"text":"錢而轉移出來要來處理的包括地方預算的建設、教育、社會福利甚至於租屋補貼等等另外本席這個會期在國防外交委員會我們都知道國防非常重要而且他必須由中央來進行統籌所以本席在這裡要詢問的就是時間有限是不是可以先來處理比較緊急的總預算114年度總預算"},{"start":254.753,"end":281.962,"text":"然後我們再花多一點的時間來讓各縣市政府針對接下來要面對如果總預算地方總則分配稅款有一些挪移的時候我們再把這個修法再做細部的調節跟討論好嗎謝謝主席謝謝林淳雲委員本席再回答一次就是請執政黨的委員趕快回去跟行政院院長說趕快把依法應該編列的預算"}]}},{"id":"155797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f09c8bf67ea789b2fbf6b87f55f737407150be7fc235aa971110f13b80feb9a04e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:29:37 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昭文有沒有機會,我本來想跟你說本周四我們來兌換一下,本周四就讓我來排,我就請周萬來秘書長來解釋一下什麼叫法定總和跟應用總和,現有總和怎麼認定。"},{"start":105.876,"end":114.73,"text":"那既然主席這麼慷慨那要不要我們本周是來換一下程序就是本周是我來排跟您對調可以嗎主席"},{"start":117.25,"end":117.89,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":137.418,"end":151.836,"text":"這不可能因為我們的都已經排好了 認為每一個 不是程序上面可不可以 而是每一個議程都非常的重要那下週我來排 你要怎麼排那個我們都不干涉嘛"},{"start":152.276,"end":168.354,"text":"不只要不干涉,接下來的程旭文要拜託主席了齁,因為我下週想要排公聽會,而且想邀請周萬南秘書長來這邊備詢。但是呢,前提是啊,我下週我要排案,必須仍有憲法訴訟法待審法案在本委員會我才能排啊。"},{"start":170.696,"end":179.808,"text":"憲法訴訟法沒有法條在本委員會我們就沒有辦法排我知道翁曉玲委員還有一個憲法訴訟法第三十一條評議人數就是議決門檻的問題已經近乎二讀了所以委員會也沒有這個案子"},{"start":185.495,"end":186.556,"text":"我當然跟你請求阿因為今天程序你訂的阿不用阿"},{"start":212.588,"end":226.941,"text":"不是 你要怎麼排 我們都無權干涉嘛 你要怎麼排 我們都無權干涉啊 但是怎麼排必須一切依照我們這邊的法律規定我們希望如果這問題這麼主席的認同這麼重要 你也尊重我下星期怎麼排"},{"start":231.485,"end":257.393,"text":"我希望我們憲法訴訟法在本委員會的討論,讓我有機會下週來排公聽會。謝謝。不是啊,我聽不懂你的邏輯啦。我跟你講,我完全聽不懂中召委的邏輯。也不要在那邊曲解別人的話啦。我的說法很簡單就是,中召委要排什麼會議的議程,那我們都無權干涉,就這麼簡單。"},{"start":258.893,"end":260.054,"text":"下一位我們麻煩"}]}},{"id":"155796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f07868761b34ad3c69f6b87f55f737407150be7fc235aa97117fdd84d6b9791bcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:22:44 - 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謝謝主席我想要複製一下剛剛范委員的說法請主席不要評論委員的發言 謝謝另外我想要幫大家立法院科普一下因為今天應該有直播剛剛主席說挑登業戰也會把預算審查完我想要問"},{"start":22.777,"end":40.018,"text":"全台灣關心立法院關心預算關心我們每一天生活的公民我們難道要的是這樣的預算審查品質嗎但是主席公開的說就算挑燈夜戰也要把它審完我要再一次的問我們真的要的是這樣的預算審查品質嗎"},{"start":42.461,"end":53.677,"text":"主席您自己非常關心離島的建設你在上週五的院會甚至還提出來關於離島建設基金的部分所以我想問主席你是用這樣子的預算審查品質在關心離島建設嗎?我自己在教育文化委員會"},{"start":58.684,"end":84.832,"text":"教育文化非常多的議題常常都不是政治討論的主流它也不容易上新聞版面但是教育跟文化的工作是扎根的工作是面向未來的工作是國家發展重要的工作我們自己在教育文化委員會每一次遇到重要法案討論我們都希望有高度的共識我們可能會有些微的差異但是大家在有共識的情況下積極進行討論"},{"start":86.733,"end":112.543,"text":"所照顧到是每一個重要的我們關心的孩子跟教育文化的發展所以我要再次呼籲雖然我的時間有限我還是希望在相關財政收支劃分法上不管是地方、不管是中央我們大家要有高度共識再來進行討論就連國民黨自己的版本也有20幾個版本所以我要再次呼籲希望主席也要呼籲如果你真的要回應我的評論"},{"start":113.283,"end":140.741,"text":"就請你回應你要的給人民的預算審查品質是挑燈夜戰嗎?好,如果大家不願意在現在就開始花時間好好的討論、好好的規劃好好的服應各個地方的需求各個委員會的需求請問我們要講出一個什麼樣的國家如果主席你真的很愛回應也歡迎你回應這件事情接下來我要幫大家再科普一下剛剛主席要說凌晨4點財政委員會就有來簽名了啦但是大家我們實際上開會是9點鐘"},{"start":143.643,"end":172.543,"text":"九點鐘開會到十二點如果中間還要休息不管要不要休息挑燈夜戰下去的品質是什麼我們在教育現場都告訴孩子我們要考試的時候我們要事先的準備我們要事先的準備是為了更好的考試品質但是身為國家立法委員我們卻是這樣面對預算我要再次呼籲一點都沒有離題因為如果國民黨要用這個態度民眾黨用這個態度要擠壓時間的方法來審查預算我相信絕對是人民不樂見的"},{"start":173.603,"end":197.348,"text":"回應到今天主席要我們認真的提問那我就來問從國眾兩黨所有的版本裡面不僅是金額相差非常懸殊還有你們一直要把中央的餅叫中央把餅做大不管是統籌分配管或是垂直分配的部分所有的討論如果都還不夠具體都還不夠聚焦那就拜託召委不管是國民黨還是民進黨的召委都請再積極召開公聽會"},{"start":200.489,"end":229.15,"text":"讓更多的專家、學者甚至不同議題、不同主題的專家、學者都進來一起討論我相信這樣的討論由高度的共識大家在審查法案的時候在分配的預算的時候都還會考慮到區域的平衡過去我十幾年住在花蓮大家都知道花蓮是偏鄉如果按照國民黨現在非常多委員的版本你們只討論到人口那請問花蓮的爭議性又在哪裡昭瑋你自己來自離島我相信你更可以理解"},{"start":230.137,"end":255.045,"text":"接下來當我們把錢這樣分下去的時候請問各縣市政府有提出自己要做的事情的詳細規劃嗎?我們以現在手邊我們可以看到的資料各地方政府財政紀律不彰的相關案例以桃園市來說目前非法定社會福利的措施落在非常多的地方如果昭瑋你剛剛說預算有分顏色那我也要問"},{"start":255.805,"end":269.144,"text":"各地方政府在用這些預算有沒有不當的使用甚至是一種所謂的政治紅利買票的概念例如說老年市民三節禮金、重陽敬老禮金、公私立國中小免費營養午餐、老人免費補助活動假牙這麼多"},{"start":272.589,"end":299.999,"text":"都屬於非法定社會福利措施而如果地方沒有建立自己的財政紀律我們把所有的錢都搬到地方去難道我們要看到地方是這樣子用這些財政預算的嗎那我就不再舉例有多少縣市有類似的問題所以我想我的詢問就到此謝謝主席謝謝各位謝謝陳培宇委員謝謝好本期來正式回應第一個陳委員因為他要我回應他剛是公開詢問他要我正式回應"}]}},{"id":"155793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0acaf8eef060f789cd42df3203622d4e350be7fc235aa9711c299908bd24946c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:11:11 - 10:15:16","影片長度":"00:04:05","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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- 10:00:06","影片長度":"00:05:37","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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一黨心態的問題。就是說,最重要的擺在眼前的總預算,大家不討論。那請問一下,那明年各個地方政府,他的錢是哪裡來?他錢是哪裡來?"},{"start":146.875,"end":148.818,"text":"現在各個縣市政府都在討論總預算那反正這個原來的計劃照用嘛"},{"start":164.839,"end":186.215,"text":"立法院在野黨黨中央的總預算那地方也不用審了啊那第一個中央的預算你撥不到地方啊那第二個一樣嘛按照這個在野黨的說法不用審預算預算照用啊原來的計畫照用啊那呼籲啊各個地方政府現在也不用審查總預算啊都不用審查嘛那整個預算都擺在那邊啊"},{"start":188.223,"end":213.765,"text":"人民百姓希望看到這種情況嗎?不願意嗎?所以我看到這個在總質詢的時候好多個在野黨的立委他們在跟院長在討論就是說我地方上這個地方水利建設啊、軌道建設啊、交通建設啊、城鄉建設啊都需要中央政府希望能夠來協助、希望能夠來補助"},{"start":215.426,"end":244.268,"text":"結果在中央講的是頭頭是道在地方是講的是說我在中央爭取了多少預算回到我們地方結果沒有啊你是在中央你是在台北擋這個預算啊你在台北你在立法院擋預算那結果你回到地方之後說你看我在這個立法院在地方爭取了多少預算回來空的啦真的欺騙地方的老百姓啊"},{"start":245.373,"end":267.427,"text":"地方老百姓又問你一句說啊你不是在黨總預算嗎啊你在黨總預算啊你為什麼還要說什麼你就爭取了多少預算回來這不是很矛盾的事情嗎所以我是希望說固然修改財劃法很重要但是我剛才認為說我講的就是說事權的統一的部分有關地方制度法這部分"},{"start":268.087,"end":287.62,"text":"是不是大家也能夠來討論所以你今天沒有逐條討論基本上是肯定的因為二十幾個版本你要怎麼討論啊二十幾個版本我不知道要怎麼討論起啊就算你們國民黨裡面內部的歧義很大那國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":288.761,"end":312.857,"text":"也不一樣啊所以我不知道說這20幾個版本怎麼逐條討論起這是第一個第二個再次呼籲再次呼籲總預算趕快先審這個時候我們應該要在財委會裡面好好去審查明年度的總預算了那不是在這邊還在討論說這個財務法要怎麼修啊等等之類的可以嗎?謝謝"},{"start":316.533,"end":336.256,"text":"我等一下可以再發言,因為後面還有很多的委員要講話。我有講6分鐘了嗎?這樣子。我以為是3分鐘而已啊。好,謝謝。謝謝我們這個李坤城委員。綜合剛剛李委員所說的齁,這一次這個列席的這個官員齁,列政委的官員層次太低齁,下一回記錄一下一定要請最少"}]}},{"id":"155799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f07d7cabb260754526f6b87f55f737407150be7fc235aa97117778f5872ee59a395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:34:14 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in節目或者是翁曉玲講或者是林思明講嘛對不對所以"},{"start":62.148,"end":83.345,"text":"我認為說,所以這個是你們今天說為什麼要修這個法的理由?那所以到底適不適任呢?我們就先來審人事同意權嘛。人事同意權審完了,哇!全部通通,如果說你們全部國民黨全部通通把它否決了,全部都不,大家都,你們國民黨認為都不適任。好,那就那才進入說那怎麼辦?人數不夠了,我們是不是要來修?"},{"start":84.386,"end":87.97,"text":"憲法訴訟法這個道理就是這樣子啊為什麼會在還沒有經過人事統一權審查之前就先來審這個憲法訴訟法呢本末導致這個成語就是這樣子"},{"start":100.947,"end":101.127,"text":"這是第一點 第二點"},{"start":121.957,"end":147.104,"text":"我剛剛上次就講了這個你們現在這樣用這種方式來癱瘓11月1號以後的憲法法庭他癱瘓的不是政治他不是說癱瘓了民進黨希望怎麼樣都不是憲法法庭的判決我再講一次他是人民人民的權益的最終救濟手段我們所有的這些憲法法院的判決剛剛吳志耀委員也有講"},{"start":149.023,"end":167.759,"text":"從我們改制成憲法法庭判決之後98%的申請案都是人民申請的不是黨團或者是政府機關申請98%都是人民申請的我們今天癱瘓了你只癱瘓掉你們想要癱瘓那兩趴行政院提出申請的黨團提出申請的立法院提出申請你們想要癱瘓這兩趴卻癱瘓掉98%的人民申請的權益"},{"start":173.001,"end":200.484,"text":"這些東西他整個攸關於什麼他過去的這些憲法法院的判決他攸關代理教師的薪資他包括這些付稅的權益包括所有權的這土地所有權的保障包括工作權的保障包括食品衛生的相關法令規定這些通通是過去零零總總五花八門人民的權益攸關甚至攸關公益的這些食品衛生安全的相關的這些都是憲法法院判決過去判決的這些東西"},{"start":202.265,"end":219.011,"text":"今天如果憲法法院被你們癱瘓了未來所有的這些我剛剛所講的這些復稅權益人民退休撫恤相關的薪資這些食品安全的相關法令這些土地所有權保障工作權保障等等這些人民權益的救濟管道就被你們癱瘓了所以我在在懇求我們委員會我希望說我們不要本末倒置就如你們所講的你們認為大法官不適任那我們就趕快來審查大法官"},{"start":232.199,"end":247.491,"text":"此前提發生之後才有到底憲法訴訟法要不要修的問題所以我們今天應該停止審查這個法案我們先來就人事同意權來看看這些大法官是不是如翁曉玲所講是不是如林思明所講的不適任我們趕快先來審嘛以上"}]}},{"id":"16187","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16187","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dcdd974dd956c7ad69b5fa2f296a935346059d4d42a7fce2133e892494afed5b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-21T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T13:27:00+08:00","duration":17821,"影片長度":"04:57:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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可信賴網路與數位治理、智慧園區海外示範計劃、智慧醫療、智慧農業、新能源與探泉合作"},{"start":2318.311,"end":2337.016,"text":"以及主權AI我們依舊面臨嚴峻的外部環境與挑戰特別是中國對我步步進逼企圖塑造新常態並以混合戰的形態對我施壓在國際上鞏固一中扭曲聯大第2758號決議"},{"start":2339.301,"end":2365.588,"text":"前幾天之前又在台灣周邊展開針對性的軍事演習我們要再次感謝友邦和美國、日本、德國、英國、法國、澳大利亞、紐西蘭、韓國等多國以及歐盟對於中國軍演公開表達關切或強調維持台海和平穩定的重要性"},{"start":2366.548,"end":2387.116,"text":"不僅台灣其他民主國家也受到威權主義的威脅尤其中國、俄羅斯、伊朗和北韓形成所謂的動亂軸心威權主義的擴張越來越具有侵略性已經是全球性的挑戰縱然外部環境與挑戰嚴峻"},{"start":2388.436,"end":2388.456,"text":"一﹐"},{"start":2413.612,"end":2417.233,"text":"2.台美關係堅若磐石,美方高層透過雙邊及多邊場域強調台海和平穩定,反對以武力改變現狀的立場。拜登政府已經16度宣布對台軍售。"},{"start":2439.497,"end":2455.146,"text":"國會本年相繼通過《2024會計年度綜合撥款法》以及《2024年國安緊急補充撥款法》等有我法案明文提供臺灣不少於3億美元的外國軍事融資等"},{"start":2456.687,"end":2481.247,"text":"台日關係穩健友好日本政府持續重申維持台海和平穩定的重要性新任首相石破茂參加日本東協峰會以及日中領袖會談時都強調台海和平穩定對國際社會至為重要5月迄今也有超過60位以上的日本國會議員訪台"},{"start":2483.689,"end":2503.867,"text":"是,臺歐關係更加提升,歐盟對外事務部對於中國5月及日前對臺兩度軍演都發表聲明,強調臺海和平穩定的重要,以及維持臺海現狀對歐盟具直接的利益,反對以武力或脅迫片面改變現況,"},{"start":2506.277,"end":2517.065,"text":"蔡前總統應捷克公園2000論壇基金會的邀請出席年度會議並公開演說繼而赴法國訪問及歐洲議會進行會談"},{"start":2522.814,"end":2551.023,"text":"5.善用臺灣經濟優勢,拓展經貿外交臺灣具備數位科技產業和經貿優勢本部將善用我國優勢產業並整合各部會的資源也將透過行政院設置的經濟外交工作小組作為跨部會協作平台以議題式專案推動經貿及科技外交整合並協調跨部會工作事項落實部部都是外交部的政策目標"},{"start":2551.983,"end":2578.35,"text":"另外本部也在7月邀請臺灣的電動巴士、食品加工、5G網路、AI算力及智慧生產管理等業者組團前進巴拉圭進行投資考察並規劃運用各項投融資的政策工具透過以公代私、公私協力由政府扮演帶領投資的角色協助我國業者因應布局邦交國"},{"start":2580.455,"end":2606.447,"text":"6.持續深化新南向政策,創造互惠共贏。我們研議與第三國合作參與每日飛旅送經濟走廊。泰國政府7月起開放全球共93個國家赴泰免簽證,我國為其中之一。另外,我與菲律賓消防總署合作於9月舉辦第5屆臺飛消防特種搜救研習營聯合訓練課程等。"},{"start":2609.252,"end":2626.692,"text":"其累積國際參與動能,國際間支持及認同台灣國際參與的力道持續攀升,如在本年世界衛生大會每日英加澳等15個理念相近國家和歐盟也為我們發聲。"},{"start":2629.1,"end":2644.376,"text":"積極向國際社會發聲本部藉由第33屆巴黎奧運擴大國際文宣宣揚臺灣9月發布的本年雙十國慶影音短片民主和平繁榮的新臺灣也獲得各方的佳評如潮"},{"start":2646.357,"end":2672.905,"text":"9.積極提供人道援助提升衛民服務的功能除了援助烏克蘭重建外我們也積極援助各國對抗天災此外本部至9月起事辦有條件是線上身患護照辨明措施提供離島和偏鄉國人行動領悟的服務今年5月30日本人在此向各位委員提出了上任後第一次外交業務報告"},{"start":2674.994,"end":2699.267,"text":"勾勒出未來外交工作的願景和藍圖以及當前本部施政計畫的八大面向請容再次扼要的說明第一我們將持續深化拱部邦交關係並希望從拱部邦交關係轉為繁榮友邦也讓友邦對與我維持邦交有光榮感"},{"start":2702.062,"end":2712.351,"text":"我們將持續提升與我理念相近和友好國家的實質關係,立足印太,放眼全球。第三點,我們將持續擴大國際參與並做出具體貢獻,尤其會加強反制中國錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議文。"},{"start":2721.317,"end":2734.923,"text":"是,我們將持續強化及擴大臺灣與全球產經的鏈結,並爭取加入CPTPP,也將推動以人為本的新南向Plus新南向2.0"},{"start":2738.323,"end":2753.076,"text":"5.我們將持續提升我國優質國際形象,布局於全球,行銷全世界,也將持續加強結合民間與政府各部門外交能量,落實人人都是外交官,步步都是外交部。"},{"start":2754.569,"end":2771.627,"text":"6.我們將持續提升衛民服務效能與品質,讓人民有感,也將持續強化外交同仁跨領域的能力,同時更加活用資深能力和加強提升年輕同仁能力,並增強各駐外管處區域性專業功能。"},{"start":2773.156,"end":2793.484,"text":"7、我們將持續多元推動科技外交、人權外交、文化外交、城市外交、國會外交、醫療公衛外交、環境外交、體育外交、原住民外交、宗教外交等也將邀請賴總統本月聘任的10位無論所大使協助推動上述任務"},{"start":2796.541,"end":2817.886,"text":"8.本部將繼續全力穩健推動總和外交,向國際社會展現臺灣的堅韌與自信,強化臺灣與其他民主國家團結對抗威權主義,也讓臺灣社會更加肯定臺灣是可信賴的夥伴,落實臺灣Can Help,攜手促進世界的民主、和平與繁榮。"},{"start":2819.042,"end":2825.207,"text":"也期盼大院各位委員持續的支持並指教以上報告敬請視教謝謝現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止"},{"start":2845.011,"end":2853.877,"text":"如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情況進行處理現在請盧美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請林佳龍部長還有林務局科局長"},{"start":2884.093,"end":2886.676,"text":"委員長部長首先本是想要就這個新住民尊親屬探親來台探親停留的這個議題跟兩位做一個探討那新住民因為"},{"start":2899.871,"end":2900.292,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2916.252,"end":2944.44,"text":"那我在想其實新住民其實很多都是來自於世界各國他們來到台灣之後也就表示說他們要見一趟自己的父母或是他們的親人其實是一件不是那麼容易的事情尤其是對於經濟條件不佳的新住民更是不能夠隨心所欲沒有辦法常常回去見自己的父母我就曾經遇過就是新住民可能好幾年十幾年都才能夠回去一趟"},{"start":2945.78,"end":2963.588,"text":"基於這個人道的這個考量所以呢賴清德總統在去年的時候就提出了六大新住民政見那其中有一個就是專案計劃延長新住民直系徵清署探親停留校期簽證對這個部分的話"},{"start":2966.369,"end":2988.887,"text":"賴清德總統有提出就是對於懷孕或育有兩歲以下親生兒已取得身份證的新住民調整或送綁期直系父母來台探親停留這個規定那這個部分的話呢我過去跟我們領務局也好或是說移民署其實我們做了很多的這個討論那我不曉得說像我們"},{"start":2991.169,"end":3003.819,"text":"這個領悟局到目前為止對於賴清德總統的這個政見有沒有去做一個規劃因為我們現行的法令是新住民直系的尊敬署申請來台判清的規定是每年不超過6個月"},{"start":3006.501,"end":3011.266,"text":"我們希望就是能夠比照外國專業人才研覽及雇用辦法像這個外國的專業人才他們父母親來台其實他們可以申請一年的校期多次的入國然後總期間最長的期限是一年"},{"start":3024.221,"end":3024.321,"text":"請問部長 局長"},{"start":3038.57,"end":3057.395,"text":"報告委員有關於探親停留校期簽證現在稍有放寬是多到可以180天一次90天可以再延長不過陳儒委員所說"},{"start":3059.075,"end":3085.497,"text":"因為其實這個是有條件的是因為這個有這個兩歲以下的這個幼兒嘛需要這個照顧那這個適當的再去我們會再研議在這個180天實施的效果然後這個基礎上能夠朝延長的方向來做這個研議"},{"start":3087.113,"end":3114.513,"text":"對為什麼會說兩歲以下其實很多這個新住民家庭其實都是雙薪家庭那新住民婦女呢生了小孩之後產後其實很快他們就要回到職場上面去那我剛有提到其實很大部分的新住民其實基本上他們的經濟狀況是不佳的那當然大家可以講說父母親沒有辦法來的話就請保姆啊那當然他們也希望就是說因為經濟條件不佳他們希望說自己的父母親可以來台灣照顧他們的小孩"},{"start":3116.254,"end":3116.594,"text":"小寶寶還是沒有人照顧"},{"start":3131.607,"end":3146.217,"text":"因為在這個兩歲以下其實是很需要被照顧的小朋友所以當初我們很感謝賴清德總統提出這樣子的一個政見那政見要兌現要實現當然我們行政單位要動起來所以我才想說也不曉得到目前我們談論談論了這麼久到底有沒有進度所以部長您剛才答覆就是說我們會朝這方面來做修法嗎是不是"},{"start":3156.618,"end":3165.342,"text":"我的理念跟委員是一致的因為我們現在少子化那有這個新移民啊他"},{"start":3166.986,"end":3167.546,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3189.973,"end":3208.25,"text":"我們當然要來落實賴總統他的一個主張但是程序上怎麼去跨部會來協調來進行相關的法令的修改我們會在委員的這個指導之下一起來推動"},{"start":3208.931,"end":3234.521,"text":"OK好謝謝部長的這個回覆喔因為像過去的話很多新住民朋友都告訴我們說常常看到就是說父母親的護照上面那簽證上面就是會蓋了一個不得延期這部分可能大家要留意一下如果說來了三個月不得延期也就只有三個月這部分可能要請我們有關單位可能這個部分要來討論一下不得延期你就是不得延期移民署也沒有辦法去做延期這個動作"},{"start":3235.894,"end":3255.29,"text":"對,因為他們依法行政嘛,我們的同仁很認真的啦,但是很多政策是需要政務官基於各種的綜合評估,所以我剛剛沒有讓他講話,我自己講,目的就是說我的方向跟委員是一致的,這也是我想賴總統他的政策的方向"},{"start":3256.39,"end":3283.08,"text":"謝謝部長也希望期待賴清德總統的新住民政策都能夠一步一步的來做這個實現接下來我要跟那個局長請回座部長再來我想請教的就是南非在上個禮拜四就有傳出就是南非政府要求台灣駐南非代表處撤出它的這個首都Petrolia 像這個部分的話"},{"start":3284.52,"end":3307.408,"text":"因為我看到報導說是沒有可以協商的這個餘地也就是說沒得轉換嗎?我們非得要搬離這個首都不可嗎?那是他單方面的說法我想如果南非是一個法治國家就必須跟我們協商而且我們有1997年雙邊斷交的時候我們有一個雙邊的一個關係架構的一個節約"},{"start":3314.452,"end":3323.066,"text":"這個本身就是有規定我們台灣在南非的普利多利亞這個首都設聯絡代表處"},{"start":3326.113,"end":3352.213,"text":"反之南非在我們臺北來設立這個就是類似聯絡代表處所以這不能夠單方面這個毀約這片面的行動我們表示抗議而且我們會據理力爭我們會持續的跟他們溝通協調來捍衛我們的權利這是一定要做的那部長可是我所我看到就是說他10月底就要求我們辦理了有給我們期限"},{"start":3353.855,"end":3372.257,"text":"這是他單方的主張我們不接受當然我們也有成立應變小組做好各種應變的計畫基於我們國家之間是對等要捍衛我們的主權跟尊嚴所以我們都有針對這個事情事實上是從去年"},{"start":3373.639,"end":3393.494,"text":"中國國家主席習近平訪問南非舉辦金磚峰會到今年9月初中國中非合作論壇他們持續在施壓最近也看到包括南非聯合政府國會議員"},{"start":3395.475,"end":3424.679,"text":"也公開表示反對這種沒有經過協商片面的行動他們的國內的媒體也是一樣認為這是一個羞恥對他來講南非的媒體認為南非政府是他們南非的一個羞辱所以各種聲音都出來了更何況包括美日等理念相近的民主國家他們也陸續在表達關心跟支持"},{"start":3425.962,"end":3452.558,"text":"是,部長剛才提到就是說之前就是因為南非跟這個中國他們開了這個這個會議之後金磚會議之後的態度就開始有很大的這個轉變那剛剛部長你有提到所謂的羞恥其實你覺得是中國利用這個方式來羞辱台灣的那有沒有擔心就是說往後會有所謂的骨牌效應,會不會?"},{"start":3455.066,"end":3459.715,"text":"我們會做好應變那中共的壓力是無所不在"},{"start":3460.765,"end":3486.738,"text":"那對於即使我們沒有正式邦交國家的對象也不斷的施壓那他們的手段很多包括透過一些這個利益的一個包括像這種所謂的貸款那這造成的債務陷阱而因此控制了他們國家一些人士那這個已經不是單一個案"},{"start":3488.079,"end":3514.261,"text":"我們當然是會密切的注意跟妥善的來因應說實在中國是已經領證就像剛剛您所講的可能就是讓他們陷入這個貸款的這個陷阱裡面那當然中國之前推這個一帶一路很多國家其實就陷入了這個陷阱當中所以我剛剛有提到就是說會不會中國抓著這一點呢"},{"start":3514.801,"end":3515.582,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3535.377,"end":3546.065,"text":"臺灣甚至臺灣的人民還有我們的臺商像這個的話我們有什麼因應之道啊我們比較擔心除了這南非之後以後會不會一個一個接一個的代表處被迫要求離開會不會"},{"start":3548.186,"end":3564.104,"text":"我們當然都全面的在掌握各國的情形那基於外交捍衛我們的國家的主權跟尊嚴那也基於對等的原則"},{"start":3565.245,"end":3593.611,"text":"所以我們台灣其實跟南非的關係我想台灣對他們的協助以及在不管是經貿、文化各方面的幫助他們的國人也都知道那為什麼少數的執政者他們就是屈從中共的壓力那我們會做好因應那因應的方法我們會隨著這個事件因為"},{"start":3594.491,"end":3618.359,"text":"他們說要強迫我們簽管是10月30號所以我們不管是在南非我們管處的各種因應還有我們整個外交部政府各單位也會針對這個部分我們已經擬好對策那會一步一步的來對應這個事件的發展但我們希望說各種聲音出來之後其實南非現在是聯合政府"},{"start":3619.472,"end":3642.806,"text":"所以現在這個所謂的GNU的這個團結的國家的這個政府它是跨黨派OK好謝謝看起來台灣的國際處境是越險這個困難艱難那現在我們要面對是中共的諮詢戰、輿論戰甚至現在還要面對心理戰這算是心理戰的一部分未來還有法律戰所以這部分外交部真的辛苦了大家加油謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝羅美林委員部長請回"},{"start":3652.608,"end":3654.548,"text":"接下來我們請陳永康委員上臺諮詢請林部長"},{"start":3682.78,"end":3698.421,"text":"委員長剛才聽取了您的報告這中間特別強調了我們所有的同仁都是外交官都承擔了責任跟使命那麼對我們國家的理念以及我們國家的長處我們希望向外推展"},{"start":3699.002,"end":3725.855,"text":"那我特別今天就您前面報道提到的我們幾個有關的五大信貸產業的七項旗艦計劃這個裡面部分我可能要請教一下有關於我們有關資訊或者向國際推展的業務是不是也請資訊跟電務處處長以及這個郭赫思司長一起我們來探討一下各位看一下這張圖"},{"start":3728.22,"end":3755.203,"text":"我們今天所活的這個世界可以說網路一線牽天涯若比鄰雖然目前跟我們維持邦交的12個國家包括非聯合國的梵蒂岡但是我們所有駐外的代表處這裡面人才輩出只是沒有正式的大使館的頭銜因此在這個情況下我們要建立一個AI網路的系統"},{"start":3756.738,"end":3769.096,"text":"要善用AI我今天特別根據您提出來的這幾個7個主要的半導體供應鏈的韌性可信賴網路數位治理智慧園區海外示範計劃"},{"start":3770.56,"end":3796.777,"text":"那麼智慧醫療智慧農業新能源跟探權合作最後主權AI這個裡面對駐外人員來推廣來講是一個很重大的責任所以我們在這個議題中間我們先建議在駐外我們的外交學院開一個短期的課程對於我們未來要外派的人員對AI的概念跟運用上有一個基本的概念我們先看這個"},{"start":3801.371,"end":3806.889,"text":"這就是AI這是美國在用的他們講的這個AI的大資料庫因為你這個"},{"start":3808.356,"end":3830.105,"text":"大比例的data高速的處理還有一些不確定的數據進來那不同的格式對應動態的世界變局有關地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略它的牽動關係這裡面一個核心問題啊就是說我們掌握的大數據那這個部分呢"},{"start":3831.425,"end":3847.21,"text":"我們希望在我們外派人員中間讓他有一個基本的了解所以對於你去做promotion去推展你的業務的時候論述上而不是口頭的AI那我們看這個AI這個AI實際上生成的非常複雜"},{"start":3848.57,"end":3877.076,"text":"那紅色的部分我們是參照國際的發展趨勢幾乎不是我們能主導但是在紅色線條以外就是我們現在努力要做的這個部分最後變成了所謂的生成式的AI如何不管是在醫療在農業在科技這裡面一個關鍵因素就是我們跨部會中間他允許你獲得的資料庫能夠能夠推展到國外另外就是AI的主導權"},{"start":3878.696,"end":3900.681,"text":"這裏面限制因素很多東西是我們要自己能夠掌握的有的時候難免流於誠意過高但是在許多的限制因素上面晶圓的使用、市場的限制這個東西我們希望內部能夠發展出一個完整的框架最後用這張圖來說明因為剛好在上週我們的國科會"},{"start":3905.342,"end":3908.185,"text":"臺灣正面臨AI創新產業應用不足AI創新缺乏成功商業模式"},{"start":3928.562,"end":3953.44,"text":"企業數位轉型的壓力很大中小企業涉足AI創新的門檻很高等另外所謂的生產這個生成式AI是一種技術目前仍然需要這個設計的思考推動企業創新讓這個生成式AI真正落地因此我根據部長您提報的資料裡面右邊的這一塊我們做出一個流程"},{"start":3954.621,"end":3974.086,"text":"我們的定義是國家或地區對於AI及其相關的資源的控制跟管理能力要建立這個能量目標爭取國家的利益維護社會倫理確保全民的福利方法針對AI系統的開發部署和應用最主要我們有法律規範"},{"start":3975.56,"end":4000.954,"text":"要制定法律因為AI是不可逆的雙面刃我們跟國際要接軌那我們在有目標有方法有手段呢運用法規與政策建立可自主可控的AI生態系統特別是AI的基礎建設自主技術開發與掌握數據流動這個東西才能跟國外分享那麼手段的第二是運用AI的生態系統協助國家產業"},{"start":4004.462,"end":4021.937,"text":"﹚"},{"start":4021.997,"end":4024.679,"text":"全民參與對話透明的教育化以全民共識協力完成屬於我們國家自主的"},{"start":4042.156,"end":4052.027,"text":"以上提供部長作為向外推展以及人才培養的一個基本參考請部長您就上面立即做個回應"},{"start":4055.111,"end":4077.233,"text":"感謝也非常的感動那個委員對於這個AI這個的了解跟這個就是分享那榮邦計畫的主權AI我們會參考委員今天的這個質詢我覺得這個非常的完整因為事實上未來全球化資訊時代就是會有除了資安問題以外會有資料經濟"},{"start":4079.855,"end":4080.015,"text":"臺灣在這方面有強項"},{"start":4095.596,"end":4095.916,"text":"在於他的"},{"start":4125.803,"end":4125.824,"text":"電腦端"},{"start":4133.777,"end":4161.147,"text":"這個圖片是講美國的4個P在他的國務院是做的預防國際情勢在國防部做的是軍事準備那在國際市場是他要追求主導市場最後他的高科技部分他是要做保護所以4個P那在這4個P裡面他有一個很重要的因素就是剛才我們提出的運用AI做工具跨部會因此比方講在美國的這個國務院"},{"start":4162.711,"end":4183.336,"text":"在美國的國防部以及他的CIA甚至他在國會他都成立中國事務小組他們這個小組分析結果的東西是可以分享的那這個資料庫是一個很重要的那我們也願意在這個這個質詢完以後如果貴部有人這個我們這張圖可以顯示出來跨部會的協調"},{"start":4194.653,"end":4194.673,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":4218.476,"end":4237.445,"text":"在成立國際情勢的變化也就是64x64我們可以產生40924096個不同的指標這個是做一個預警的參考並不是提供一個解套方案但是可以避免判斷錯誤的發生這個我們私下提供貴部做參考報告委員整個有關於這個"},{"start":4249.264,"end":4276.492,"text":"林的對國家戰略的這個整體規劃那有落實到我想包括不只是說傳統的軍事還有包括這些非傳統的這個國安的這些措施尤其是治安的部分我們其實在每一天幾乎是日常我們都面對到這樣的一個威脅所以這些因應的措施我們會來加強"},{"start":4282.366,"end":4294.291,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝陳永康委員部長請回接下來我們請徐曉鑫委員上台質詢謝謝主席那我想我們先有請那個外交部林部長請林部長"},{"start":4322.35,"end":4340.146,"text":"蔡英文前總統目前在歐洲訪問請問就外交部的了解蔡前總統之後從歐洲回來以後是否已經有安排了赴美的訪美行程有關蔡前總統出訪的行程我想我們"},{"start":4342.425,"end":4369.556,"text":"應該是由他辦公室在就是負責那已經出訪的部分我們有協助這一次到歐洲我想是相當的成功不管是在捷克那在英國的部分是否按照媒體上面所說的因為我不知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞就是說本來有安排到英國但英國認為說可能涉及一些敏感的原因所以就請他下次再來或者是說有一些這個延遲的情況"},{"start":4371.977,"end":4387.856,"text":"我想跟英國的關係是非常的友好因為蔡前總統他本身是在英國讀書嘛那至於說怎麼樣的方式安排能夠呈現英國對於他的歡迎我想應該是會很慎重"},{"start":4388.817,"end":4393.46,"text":"因為英國本身就是一個很值得我想由蔡前總統去訪問的對象國家那現在這樣的方式是很隆重歡迎的方式嗎因為時間的限制還有各種行程我想這個部分並沒有納入這一次的安排但是不代表台英關係有什麼樣的問題但沒有納入的主因是英國認為說如果今天蔡前總統來訪可能會造成他們在外交上的困擾還是有其他的原因跟理由呢"},{"start":4419.298,"end":4420.319,"text":"蔡前總統到英國訪問之所以會有一些異動是因為英國方考慮到國際情勢的原因與否?"},{"start":4437.438,"end":4439.24,"text":"我想要問的是說有一名西班牙籍的男子奧納德在國外犯下了逾10億的台幣詐騙案在台灣生活5年"},{"start":4458.837,"end":4481.545,"text":"那當然我們發現之後就要把對方驅逐出境可是新加坡因為我們跟西班牙沒有直航所以從新加坡本來要轉機但是從新加坡要轉機的時候他是以紅色通報對象被拒絕入境的那請問一下移民署在將人送往新加坡轉機的時候有沒有事先向新加坡溝通呢"},{"start":4482.385,"end":4485.989,"text":"當初移民署將人送往新加坡轉機的時候移民署有沒有先跟外交部 請外交部跟新加坡溝通"},{"start":4506.885,"end":4511.306,"text":"那為什麼會,如果有溝通的話為什麼會在新加坡的時候才知道要被遣返回來?"},{"start":4534.196,"end":4553.554,"text":"是涉及到因為就像你講西班牙政府因為他們跟這個新加坡之間沒有這個引渡的條約那你們事前不知道沒有溝通因為我們從西班牙方面得到的訊息是配合就是說你跟西班牙方面得到的訊息是可以從新加坡"},{"start":4555.395,"end":4579.31,"text":"實際上並沒有引渡條約所以後來我們一起配合那個interpol就是把他再遣返到遣送到第三地那你們當時在這個男子的這個轉送的過程當中你們沒有問過西班牙說是否有跟新加坡簽引渡條約沒有問這個是由內政部根據他們跟就是西班牙政府相關的單位他們沒有問也沒有諮詢外交部"},{"start":4581.547,"end":4582.507,"text":"所以在後續才跟外交部確認請外交部協助的是這樣嗎?"},{"start":4597.72,"end":4621.33,"text":"到最後面當然是我們一定要全面協助順利解決了那我想請一下我們那個今天好像沒來是不是我們次長好像人不在本來想要請田光中次長的那但是呢今天我相信您已經看到新聞了有關於這個阿拉伯這個中東危機的部分我想要請問一下就是可以看一下下面這一張"},{"start":4622.751,"end":4642.771,"text":"你先看一下右邊這個人他跟我們田次長站在一起合影但我必須說合影很正常因為這個人他在許許多多的地方都跟很多人合影但是我只是覺得說如果連我們田次長的合影都被有心人利用到外面去做詐騙的話那這個外交部也要負上很大的責任"},{"start":4643.371,"end":4664.165,"text":"來我們看一下下一個請問你們知道外交部長你知道這個協會他是屬於官方單位還是民間單位嗎民間單位那他們是在做什麼服務的內政部登記的社團好那他們沙烏地阿拉伯駐台正式單位的名稱是什麼阿拉伯駐台他們代表處不是啊"},{"start":4670.401,"end":4670.601,"text":"沙烏地阿拉伯駐台商務辦事處"},{"start":4700.816,"end":4725.351,"text":"我問一下那所以他可以使用chamber這兩個字嗎chamber這個內政部是就是他們向內政部登記不過如果委員講這個名詞這樣子是有可能引起你們早就知道名詞是不行的你知道嗎你們今天被問到的時候講的不清不楚"},{"start":4725.751,"end":4748.682,"text":"可是實際上外交部早就在112年的3月12號提出呢像這個沙烏地阿拉伯辦事處講到呢有關約旦阿曼及沙拉伯阿拉伯商業辦事處反映的這個阿拉伯在台商務協會然後呢他可能運作有誤導國人跟妨礙公益一事他附了20頁的影本告訴你說這是有問題的因為"},{"start":4751.863,"end":4776.013,"text":"他們辦事處注意到這個ACCT上面有加了chamber一個詞還有阿拉伯這個詞讓民眾誤以為他是阿拉伯國家的成員而不是只是一個在地的商會跟組織跟委員會請問一下為什麼這件事情從112年我們的中東國家三個國家的這個代表處辦事處都向外交部反映但卻遲遲沒有下文跟結果"},{"start":4777.199,"end":4799.374,"text":"那個委員因為這個是這個所謂的阿拉伯在台商務協會事項內政部登記他是合法的社團但是這個名稱引起了我們駐台的這個友邦他們的這個辦事處認為會有混淆是的啊那我覺得這個我們從文字上看啊"},{"start":4800.808,"end":4808.021,"text":"確實會引起誤解那你們要怎麼協助他們呢發發函就好了嗎過去發了非常多次的函可是我要告訴你的事情是"},{"start":4809.201,"end":4836.702,"text":"真的要拜託外交部要去幫忙這三個中東的國家因為我們所有在台灣的商務在中東地區都是由阿曼阿拉伯跟約旦三個商務代表處來協助我們整個在中東的國人那今天他們遭受到這樣的不公平的對待那被使用了chamber被使用了他們的國旗他們是沒有辦法接受而且多次向外交部澄清跟反映的再來我想請問一下"},{"start":4837.943,"end":4844.268,"text":"像這樣子的章,我給大家看,像這樣子的章,請問是可以拿來做文件簽證的嗎?那有收錢呢?"},{"start":4863.496,"end":4868.369,"text":"對,如果有涉及到違反他登記的宗旨跟他的業務,那是應該開這樣的收據呢?"},{"start":4873.086,"end":4895.601,"text":"我的意思是說這個章是他們這個協會自己刻的去向民眾做文件認證的收錢自己收的像這樣子的一個所謂的商會在台灣打著外交的名號傷害到了我們阿拉伯相關的使節三個國家的代表都多次的向外交部提出陳情甚至更誇張的容我再講一下"},{"start":4896.041,"end":4919.796,"text":"更誇張的是他們過程當中還反被這個民間組織去提告然後呢被我們的中山分局因為涉及各自我不能拿給大家看我只能揮一下中山分局去把我們沙烏地阿拉伯的這個大使本來是要把他呢帶去偵查差一點人家的刑事豁免權大使的豁免權就不見了部長您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":4923.959,"end":4930.342,"text":"我昨天知道然後我有要求我們外交部要來協助這些駐台的代表處或辦事處他們的外交豁免權那我們也呼籲就是相關的政府單位在傳喚或者是進行司法行為的時候必須要先部長您不了解因為他可能搞混了您知道嗎"},{"start":4946.149,"end":4951.172,"text":"因為這個東西他真假難辨他用了chamber他用了人家的國旗所以有可能這個內政部這邊他也搞不清楚狀況他就覺得說哎呀這個是真的大使然後來告這個假的大使然後結果呢反過來這個以假亂真了因為搞的最後呢是後來外交部發函給法務部說這個外交豁免權是我們要保護的"},{"start":4969.845,"end":4985.44,"text":"這個真相才被揭開可是整個過程中您知道給這些大使帶來了多大的壓力以及給台灣給中華民國帶來多大的中東的外交危機嗎我跟委員說明齁我是我感謝委員齁去把這個問題齁很詳細的說明第一點"},{"start":4989.468,"end":5014.39,"text":"阿拉伯在台商務協會他是向內政部登記雖然合法但有沒有違反他登記的這個業務再來他如果進行商務那有收錢這些可能的這個爭議再來他跟駐台的這三個國家的代表處之間的紛爭雖然是法律的問題但是呢我們外交部站在一定要去捍衛"},{"start":5015.351,"end":5029.247,"text":"祝臺這些國家的辦事處他的外交權益所以這一點我想我是很感謝委員我要請外交部同仁不能夠只看片段要看整體因為這個有一點變成說怎麼是變成"},{"start":5031.63,"end":5035.092,"text":"而且部長我要跟您報告的是我今天講的都是我公開內容上可以講的那這些外交的大使他們私底下受到很多的騷擾是我在現在檯面上不能講的"},{"start":5054.341,"end":5068.308,"text":"所以除了我今天跟您說明的內容之外我希望外交部能夠更謹慎的去了解現在中東的這個危機比現在我所陳述出來的還要更加的嚴重而且已經是多年讓對方不堪其擾所以"},{"start":5069.349,"end":5089.32,"text":"不能過去我們都是以說呢因為這個東西是他設立的商會是NGO是他自己的這個協會所以我們無法可管反正他只要不要做什麼什麼什麼就好但我們今天已經提出了他有去磕人家的章去欺騙民眾去做文件的簽證而且這個協會目前有一個詐欺的官司正在進行當中"},{"start":5095.243,"end":5108.178,"text":"這三件事情都足以請外交部要求內政部去針對這個不合規定因為他使用了chamber跟人家的國旗嘛不合規定的這個部分去進行處理所以在這裡誠心的拜託部長"},{"start":5109.96,"end":5110.18,"text":"可以嗎?"},{"start":5131.536,"end":5147.662,"text":"我們會妥善處理,也會跟內政部來討論,因為他向內政部登記,但是有一些涉及到對我們外交上面的影響,那我們會來妥善處理。好,謝謝,那如果有任何進度的話,再拜託部長跟我們做說明,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。謝謝徐曉新委員。部長請回。接下來我們請王定宇召委上台諮詢。"},{"start":5171.016,"end":5173.549,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長秦林部長"},{"start":5180.25,"end":5181.251,"text":"目前我們的住管正常運作中"},{"start":5209.953,"end":5235.725,"text":"還是留在首都對因為他這個片面的行動違反協議的內容所以我們還是依照還是留在普利托利亞這個地方所以我們國家態度是不搬沒有要搬是for now還是是現在而已還是一直下去"},{"start":5236.553,"end":5260.742,"text":"如果南非是一個法治國家他應該遵守雙方的協議如果有一些這個涉及到對我們管住人員安全或者是因為領悟事務的正常進行造成這個重大的影響的時候我們當然也會有因應的做法那個管住是我們的財產嗎是是我們買的嗎對我們有沒有做財產保全的準備有"},{"start":5263.876,"end":5289.918,"text":"細節內容怎麼準備我就不細問了我請教因為我們曾經發生過奈及利亞事件當時他們也是就是叫你我那牽的更遠他牽到800多公里以外那個約翰尼斯堡跟普利托亞還差了大概一個小時以內車程不塞車的話當時奈及利亞變成他們的政府派派警察派武裝警察等於把我們趕出首都圈"},{"start":5291.567,"end":5319.915,"text":"在南非會不會發生到這個狀況我們已經成立應變小組會做各種對策的準備那因為我們是如果說國家之間的法律規定他必須要來遵守現在是你判斷他的原因是什麼因為在稍早不久前中國舉辦的中非合作論壇"},{"start":5321.414,"end":5346.424,"text":"那南非現在執政黨ANC的總統跑到北京去那去年這個金磚集團在南非辦活動習近平還專機到了那個地方現在南非突然間毀壞了他們自己所簽的協定不遵守他們跟我們簽署的法律文件你判斷發生這個事件是為什麼為什麼在現在"},{"start":5348.186,"end":5361.712,"text":"確實因為過去26年來都算是相安無事也是很正常在運作那從去年以來確實兩次的峰會那他們的外交部對我們持續的施壓"},{"start":5363.191,"end":5381.941,"text":"所以這裡面顯然有外力的一個影響我想大家都了解就像說其實現在南非的媒體也表示南非政府他們是不結盟的政策阿怎麼會去受到外國的影響甚至是這個施壓"},{"start":5383.542,"end":5409.356,"text":"這一點已經我們看到不只他們國會議員連媒體也都發生了我先講他們內部因為ANC現在佔400席國會議員裡面159席並沒有過半所以他的執政聯盟是結合了DA嘛叫做民主聯盟嘛那DA有87席我看到DA民主聯盟有發表聲明要求執政黨要遵守法律不可以這樣對台灣那這個部分"},{"start":5412.97,"end":5413.539,"text":"會不會有些成果"},{"start":5414.926,"end":5442.589,"text":"因為他聯合政府嘛就像說DA的這個國會議員跟他們的這個外交事務的發言人所講的你沒有經過內閣會議那新政府剛剛組成怎麼會片面的就是強迫台灣圈館所以他要求要經過內閣會議共同決議嘛所以這個事情他們內部有些問題那講完內部我來問外部他受到外部因素影響當中國北京一直施壓圍堵台灣這個是公開秘密的"},{"start":5443.775,"end":5461.722,"text":"我們也是有朋友的吼目前你有尋求就是說就我知道像美國的台北法案有把他們的外交的工具箱裡面的所有工具要跟台灣合作綁在一起目前我們台灣的外交部有沒有尋求自由民主聯盟的國家來協助"},{"start":5462.349,"end":5491.233,"text":"我們持續都在尋求跟他們溝通然後也獲得他們的協助其實這個已經是過去至少這半年來很頻繁包括美國日本G7的國家美國日本G7國家有接收到我方的訊息他們有沒有出手協助我們這件事件有向這個南非政府表達他們的關切G7美日這些國家都有"},{"start":5491.573,"end":5520.493,"text":"每日跟G7的一些國家但是當然具體的國家他們表達的這個情況我就不在這裡說明那G7以外的主要國家有沒有也有像這個其實歐洲很多理念相近一些人權的國家歐洲相關的國家也有對包括中東歐方便透露讓我們知道好朋友是誰捷克捷克有還有沒有其實還有他們都有因為其實這些住"},{"start":5521.618,"end":5548.298,"text":"在地的大使館之間啊他們也會交換意見這些國家駐南非的使館替台灣發聲然後南非內部執政聯盟的第二大黨也有表達意見然後我們現在國家的態度是我不搬你違法你違反1997年簽的法律所以現在狀況是這樣子嘛那我方的反制作為之前我要問一下當然對南非動手我們就要想到隔壁的斯瓦地尼嘛"},{"start":5549.259,"end":5571.27,"text":"這件事情對史瓦帝尼跟臺灣我們目前在非洲唯一的官方正式邦交國有沒有影響我們當然是有警覺到這可能都是一連串的就是要打壓我們外交的行動所以我們已經會加強跟史瓦帝尼的這個外交關係以外"},{"start":5576.1,"end":5587.655,"text":"施瓦帝尼目前還是用南非幣那南非州五個國家賴索托阿布拉巴其實當然南非佔的權重很大"},{"start":5588.416,"end":5605.218,"text":"所以我要提醒我們外交部都不容易我也知道你們都很辛苦但這個局勢絕對不會是每一次團結叫你遷出首都到約翰尼斯堡50分鐘而已實質的影響不大但是他後續會不會有其他效應我們外交不要注意那我們有沒有反制作為"},{"start":5606.55,"end":5620.48,"text":"我們現在都有因應的計畫,那我們就基於對等的原則,那我們希望雙方面經過溝通,可以有這個轉圜的餘地,但是我們也是做好最壞"},{"start":5623.422,"end":5648.84,"text":"劇本想定跟因應要讓對方知道比方說當然雙方你要我遷出首都你的也要離開我們的雙北嘛我們的首都圈嘛比方說他們在台灣我們有獎學金有訓練計畫比如說他們有希望農產品進口到台灣這些東西我覺得要讓對方知道說縱使雙方的貿易金額大概在18億美金左右佔台灣的比重不大"},{"start":5649.62,"end":5671.016,"text":"但是我們還是有能力做出維護國家尊嚴的動作更重要的美國跟台灣現在的關係在外交上是合作的美國有一個AGOA的會議那個是協助非洲發展的南非其實是很仰賴這個事情所以美國的他們現在選舉那他們的國會議員以及11月5號選完總統之後"},{"start":5675.98,"end":5698.792,"text":"對於南非這件事情我們台灣應該要跟美國我們的好朋友提出AGOA的審查應該把南非這個不友善的態度列入我們外交部對這件事情怎麼看?確實齁所謂AGOA就是非洲機會及成長法案那這是美國很重要的對非洲的政策對他牽涉到金援啊協助啊很多事情"},{"start":5699.671,"end":5715.324,"text":"我們的了解事實上也有我們支持台灣很關心這個事件的包括國會議員他們也都有針對這個事情其實先前也有過一些發言"},{"start":5717.54,"end":5731.768,"text":"那最近的發展應該會引起各界的注意跟因應我本期還是希望就是說事情不要往最壞的程度發展能夠有所轉還畢竟這麼久的老朋友了雖然南非對中國很仰賴"},{"start":5732.788,"end":5757.398,"text":"那我們也希望事情不要發展到最後因為南非在台灣有很多英語教師他有很多在台灣的人在工作在這邊讀書那不到最後我們當然不希望去影響這些無辜的一般人但是國家尊嚴國家的利益是大於一切個人我們也希望在台灣的南非朋友們不管在台灣從事什麼工作"},{"start":5758.078,"end":5774.645,"text":"應該也要試圖回去讓你自己的政府知道不要做一個違反法律違反老朋友情誼的事情這是兩面的我們不能既要保護你又被你的國家傷害我接下來請教一下我們外交部對於美國第7艦隊先移到第7艦隊"},{"start":5776.772,"end":5796.833,"text":"在宣布說他們有承認20號他們跟加拿大兩艘軍艦穿越台灣海峽執行自由航行的任務自由航行任務最重要一件事情其實就如同他們聲明所說民主盟友的軍艦穿越海峽公海走廊超出任何沿海國家的領海"},{"start":5797.634,"end":5799.015,"text":"外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況："},{"start":5828.474,"end":5851.702,"text":"我們感謝所有理念相近國家對於台海和平穩定的重視特別是自由航行權所以我們我想包括G7包括我想特別是美國還有第一島鏈的國家對於這個台海的自由航行權的一個重視"},{"start":5853.002,"end":5881.359,"text":"這是符合我想不只台灣的國家利益而且符合整個印太區域共同的利益到目前為止德國22年來第一次行經台海那英國啦加拿大澳洲啦美國日本日本好像也是史上第一次在上個月啦對於這些自由航行他穿越公海當然是航行的權利而台海維持公海的狀態是不利"},{"start":5882.299,"end":5897.359,"text":"威脅那一端我們在台灣有些人齁動不動就對台灣要求說台灣你們要主張和平台灣不要上戰場台灣不要軍備他就忘了發動爭端的製造動亂不和平的是侵略端啊"},{"start":5898.22,"end":5923.826,"text":"只會要求保護自己的人接受和平的準則那個是投降保護自己的人放下武器就什麼都沒有了侵略者放下武器才是真和平所以我們現在過去有一些相信的價值保家衛國守護自己的國家是正確的現在好像都會成為有些人口中嘲諷的對象那個扭曲的價值我覺得我們政府要義正詞嚴的去駁制但對這個事情"},{"start":5925.106,"end":5942.18,"text":"自由航行它航行這一個公海的走廊對台海的和平穩定當然是有幫助的我最後請教部長這些相關的自由民主的好朋友們盟友們 partner他們在進行自由航行的時候我國會不會事先知情就你的了解"},{"start":5943.552,"end":5968.438,"text":"當然我們都有相關的情報交換至於具體的個案我就先不予評論這個我予以尊重那我希望在有關南非這個事件他正在變化當中而且南非國內的政治氛圍國際對台灣友好的國家的相關發聲以及11月5號後續的變化我們外交部要辛苦掌握主標這當然不能賭氣"},{"start":5969.258,"end":5969.498,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":5999.963,"end":6000.364,"text":"有請林部長"},{"start":6013.862,"end":6032.539,"text":"部長不好意思,剛剛桌上還有文件我嚇一跳,你好,那這個因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情,所以我想說我比較簡略的問一些其他的事情就是說這一次他要求要把這個辦事處遷出台北,那我其實比較好奇的事情是這一件事情是大概什麼時候發生的"},{"start":6034.438,"end":6058.32,"text":"這個在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及那今年4月的時候就是有這個提出就是限期半年我們要這個簽管然後到了這個10月7號的時候更是以電函那就是要求"},{"start":6059.591,"end":6065.792,"text":"因為我看他報導是10月17號所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情所以才會再度被報導出來"},{"start":6066.86,"end":6090.868,"text":"那剛剛部長講的是因為10月7號的時候他又再要求一次然後限期說一定要遷出首都這樣子嗎對好那因為這個這件事情因為畢竟它發生的時間比較長那這個中間到底有沒有威脅就是說有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的這個其實是外交部在盤點的那這邊我不細問但我現在比較擔心的事情就是說像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多"},{"start":6091.588,"end":6115.153,"text":"比如說這一個我們這一個這個是在這個新社這個祝孟買的一個辦事處那中國的外交部也是提出說要嚴正的一個交涉然後再來就是這一次這個也是大概稍微往前一點因為外交部上禮拜沒有過來那他是說這一個蒙古說是這個鼠疫的疫情那使這個國慶的這個臨時取消那這一件事情請問目前的這個進度為何"},{"start":6117.711,"end":6126.916,"text":"我們先有召見他駐台的代表那另外也跟他們交涉中因為這個事情他們以這個我們辦國會酒"},{"start":6129.325,"end":6157.296,"text":"國慶酒會的現場所以疑似說是有什麼樣的事故那封鎖起來就沒有辦法進去所以因此也就被迫取消但是這件事情我想對於不只對我想我們台灣我想對蒙古本身做一個獨立自主的國家他怎麼去面對中國的壓力那在這種之下用這樣的理由我想這個當然會影響他們國家的形象"},{"start":6158.476,"end":6181.83,"text":"但是我現在比較擔心的就是說因為他們現在用的理由他不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由他就用一些比如說有疾病啊什麼有等等之類的那這個會造成我們在反制上面的困難啦像南非這個是很直接嘛他說要叫你遷出首都但如果說今天是一個比較灰色的方式用這樣各式各樣看起來好像又可以接受的理由那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些"},{"start":6183.283,"end":6203.323,"text":"這個沒有一個國家會說宣稱自己國家有屬意吧那個壓力多大或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害我想可能對蒙古更大吧那我們當然都妥善因應中其實該召見我們就召見抗議然後要求他們說明這個"},{"start":6205.505,"end":6219.462,"text":"其實中共在我們我想從今年初總統大選到這個總統副總統就職典禮到我們雙十國慶的活動它的打壓包括要求我們這個簽署改名"},{"start":6220.803,"end":6221.103,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6240.868,"end":6244.27,"text":"我個人是認為說因為我們外交上能夠反制的方式本來就沒那麼多但今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心這其實跟外交部無關是國防部"},{"start":6263.543,"end":6282.797,"text":"國防部有一些情報員的財產各自外流這個在我們的外館也有可能會出現因為這有兩種情形一種可能就是駭客攻擊這個在外館之前我在質詢的時候已經有說過必須要加強資安等等之類的但這一次比較不一樣的是它也有可能按照這一個新聞的報導它也有可能是內部的流出"},{"start":6283.297,"end":6287.102,"text":"對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下不管是從資安的方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面因為這個可能會變成另外一種威脅的方式是"},{"start":6301.541,"end":6323.817,"text":"資安就是國安在外交部尤其如此所以我們除了我們資安處我們全面的在做一些檢視跟檢討那我們對外管因為他所處的地方有時候就是有一些不是完全能夠我們能夠掌握的那我們也去做這個檢查去改善"},{"start":6325.278,"end":6331.364,"text":"這部分是我們業務的重點因為任何的外交部涉及到的情報或資訊都會影響國家安全"},{"start":6337.79,"end":6337.97,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6355.504,"end":6381.858,"text":"因為我現在擔心的就是說因為我們現在都知道資安重要然後資安也越做越好但有時候他反而這個不是資安他可能造特傷其實資安有一些涉及到人安對對對對所以這方面拜託部長就是可能因為我知道外交人員他更容易被針對所以尤其在外管的部分這個如果有這相關情勢的話變成說我們在做反制的時候他變成有一些威脅的條件那這個對我們會非常的不利是那再來就是這一個是俄羅斯的事情這個稍微在更早以前"},{"start":6382.478,"end":6401.373,"text":"那前面是這個俄羅斯的駭客攻擊我們的這個單位這個是一件事但因為後來俄羅斯是在9月的時候他有發布這個價值觀敵對的國家那現在目前這件事情的進度為何我們當時除了就是說我們當然是不認同他這樣的一個處置之外現在接下來的進度是什麼"},{"start":6403.652,"end":6428.932,"text":"因為這個不是第一次,我們第一時間也做了這個回應那現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來鼓動說明跟委員報告,那俄羅斯是9月20號發布了這個價值觀敵對國家的一個名單那包含了47個民主國家也把台灣列在裡面那其實他是因為針對這個民主國家之前對他的一些不友善的"},{"start":6429.432,"end":6453.103,"text":"他認為的不友善的態度他做了一個反制那目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處能夠密切注意他的一個發展那其實他是在這個名單公佈之後他有另外有一個方向就是鼓勵這些國家的這些民眾可以去申請到俄羅斯去拘留那他實際的後續的一個進行是什麼樣的一個方式我們的住處也隨時在密切觀察中"},{"start":6453.863,"end":6477.753,"text":"那這邊就提醒一下就是說因為我們之前面臨這一個中國的法律戰這個外交部當然是非常的熟悉啦那因為現在北韓跟這一個俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切然後接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係那今天在打這個法律戰的時候呢中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰他會有其他的這個協助那我們目前是看到資訊上的合作駭客上的合作外交上的合作現在也慢慢要產生了"},{"start":6478.553,"end":6500.821,"text":"所以這個我覺得可能是今年我們可能特別需要注意的因為一般來講我們對俄羅斯的警覺心並沒有那麼的強那這方面希望就是說在因為接下來一定會發生很多事情那就是再請多加關注俄羅斯這一個的行動是那接下來這一個這個是一個比較小的一個問題就是說因為現在呢不管是這一個這個紐約之前那個高官那個間諜活動就是說去擋我們說"},{"start":6502.602,"end":6502.902,"text":"警報網滲透全球"},{"start":6518.402,"end":6518.622,"text":"中國﹐他的這一﹐"},{"start":6542.593,"end":6561.728,"text":"國外滲透包括資訊操作包括很多的這些情報人員事實上隨著他力量的擴張包括他這一帶一路的投資或者是說他針對有關於一些僑社的操弄"},{"start":6562.529,"end":6563.07,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6578.372,"end":6596.931,"text":"相對來講,在一些國家的商社或僑社的滲透,我們是從情報中都有發現它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、收集跟操作"},{"start":6597.748,"end":6617.517,"text":"因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員他必須要去協助他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例就是說他現在非常針對我們也有在收集情報的人員他也有針對我們外館的人因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話可能被反將一軍"},{"start":6618.197,"end":6618.797,"text":"我跟委員分享一個資訊"},{"start":6643.954,"end":6666.084,"text":"推動這個所謂安全思路因為所謂一帶一路他的很多投資所在之地其實就在收集情報而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸這個已經都影響到很多當地國家人家的這個這包括不管是說經濟甚至一個民主政治的運作也引起很多國家的這個關切"},{"start":6669.645,"end":6692.778,"text":"這個是所謂的安全思路這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的很自然就是會因為在第一線攻防那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家大家來這個共同的應處"},{"start":6694.619,"end":6723.012,"text":"謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有一些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事"},{"start":6724.947,"end":6737.742,"text":"新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個"},{"start":6740.058,"end":6759.6,"text":"自我檢查如果發生這些事情我們當然如果瞭解說我們會看怎麼樣來協助也來做好因應對 因為怕說他可能現在單一個案但之後怕是有系統性的那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者他能夠有力量我覺得是非常重要的一件事那不然的話"},{"start":6760.08,"end":6761.742,"text":"確實委員 中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化 觀光也要武器化"},{"start":6776.175,"end":6776.255,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6792.785,"end":6809.916,"text":"中共這種數位極權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括價值外交同盟外交跟經貿外交外交已經不限於傳統的這個所謂的邦交之間的關係這個非傳統"},{"start":6814.179,"end":6815.46,"text":"馬文君委員上台質詢"},{"start":6847.742,"end":6851.324,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請部長請您部長部長早安委員早今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的這個部分我想請教一下外交部駐南非代表處在南非的"},{"start":6877.102,"end":6904.255,"text":"政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們"},{"start":6904.935,"end":6928.595,"text":"那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼"},{"start":6930.796,"end":6958.211,"text":"我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形"},{"start":6959.589,"end":6974.729,"text":"因為現在的NHCR就是南非的這個執政黨他是一個聯合政府也有包括包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的"},{"start":6975.455,"end":6991.85,"text":"那他也沒有經過跟他的聯合政府諮商就是這些政黨之間的諮商那又違約片面撕毀協議所以這個是很不正常嘛那這個過程當中我們大概盡了很多的努力"},{"start":6992.811,"end":6996.333,"text":"因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出"},{"start":7021.308,"end":7026.794,"text":"我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產"},{"start":7039.787,"end":7040.388,"text":"我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制?"},{"start":7062.932,"end":7077.576,"text":"我們已經有成立應變小組也做好各種應變的對策那隨著事件的發展我們會妥善的因應基本上外交是要對等互惠那如果有企圖傷害我們我們也一樣的不需要以對等的立場來做應處"},{"start":7079.437,"end":7096.462,"text":"部長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嘛我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做"},{"start":7097.362,"end":7122.17,"text":"當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好"},{"start":7124.884,"end":7124.944,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7141.548,"end":7155.042,"text":"要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管要不要簽"},{"start":7156.906,"end":7160.687,"text":"所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行了我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分"},{"start":7181.992,"end":7182.853,"text":"對於南非少數政治人物的行動"},{"start":7199.192,"end":7200.774,"text":"人家就對人家這樣啊 你這都不跟我說 人家就叫你洗澡啊"},{"start":7215.353,"end":7215.513,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":7236.579,"end":7239.341,"text":"委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備"},{"start":7252.888,"end":7268.271,"text":"我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才"},{"start":7280.333,"end":7282.479,"text":"他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加"},{"start":7285.44,"end":7309.554,"text":"對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎"},{"start":7315.973,"end":7344.111,"text":"我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛"},{"start":7344.631,"end":7372.574,"text":"另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非的政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交"},{"start":7373.815,"end":7381.37,"text":"什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量"},{"start":7382.537,"end":7388.562,"text":"他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎不過他們做這個是損人不利己嘛我們就是害怕我們的權益"},{"start":7409.497,"end":7412.138,"text":"也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對寧加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的"},{"start":7433.562,"end":7437.723,"text":"至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使在"},{"start":7461.747,"end":7461.967,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":7483.814,"end":7503.107,"text":"東歐國家我們提供了多少資源好現在提到這些國家我們剛剛提到的因為我們不希望我們面臨到這樣的困境這對我們來說不是只有外交部會覺得羞辱我們所有的國人都一樣所以我們不是在這裡要特別指責而是你的做法"},{"start":7503.427,"end":7525.88,"text":"或者應該要怎麼樣維護國家最大的利益讓我們可以走出去而且可以抬頭挺胸從過去到現在我們一直一直一直在國際上面的地位或者我們甚至矮化除非有一些拿著很多的資源拿著很多的錢到某些國家或者對某些對象的時候他可以高高在上"},{"start":7526.44,"end":7535.362,"text":"其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的"},{"start":7554.685,"end":7558.527,"text":"目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?目前我們所有的錢我們希望花在島口上尤其這個是給烏克蘭使用的因為我們要幫助的是烏克蘭所有需要幫助的尤其在醫療需求上面所以我們很關切"},{"start":7581.578,"end":7594.718,"text":"請"},{"start":7596.054,"end":7608.741,"text":"報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單,其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供。我說現在進度怎麼樣?送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購。他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嗎?多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整次要提供。你會後提供給我們有多少數量?他從台灣採購嗎?"},{"start":7625.94,"end":7652.565,"text":"他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會"},{"start":7653.645,"end":7654.965,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員部長請回"},{"start":7683.075,"end":7684.596,"text":"有請我們林部長請林部長部長好委員好"},{"start":7708.443,"end":7734.383,"text":"剛剛我們在這個地方我都有仔細的聽到都針對南非的議題那你說南非的議題要簽出我們的代表處要簽出這個非首都的一個地方那當然你說有機有機可循那這個有機可循我特別提出這個有機可循的脈絡在"},{"start":7738.942,"end":7759.555,"text":"去年的8月金裝國家峰會就傳出南非不斷施壓我國代表處要簽管之後不斷以聯大第2758號決議為理由的施壓這就是有跡可循為什麼因為有些國家的"},{"start":7761.17,"end":7786.722,"text":"議會及政要表態聯合國大會2758號決議無赦台灣其實這種宣示在國際上根本無實質的影響力但是結果我們執政黨的政治人物曾其在這種無實質的一個表態中在國內大內宣所以本席特別提醒我們的部長一個建議"},{"start":7787.822,"end":7799.178,"text":"外交部是一個現實也是國際在政治上的一個現實那我們就以南非的為例子既然南非以275號決議為由要求我國簽管"},{"start":7804.085,"end":7830.551,"text":"外交部也應應積極的應作向表態應該要表態2758號決議無涉台灣的國家要求讓我國駐館升級以做到實時對我們的友好這是第一點提示我們的部長因為這個是有機可行從金磚的會議到我們2758號"},{"start":7832.901,"end":7861.726,"text":"的這樣的一個國內的大內心那這些政治人物影響到你們外交部的運作第二個這位特別也講到牽管的問題他是在以我們南非行政首都普洱托爾利亞這是一個行政區的首都有三個首都這個是行政區的首都那他是非常的強硬的"},{"start":7862.628,"end":7877.397,"text":"要求10月30號簽管而且附帶沒有協商的一定所以部長這時候已經提示你應該有政治敏感簽管"},{"start":7878.197,"end":7894.477,"text":"如果今天我們還按照他是一個法制的國家最後我們要用他以交涉的法制在跟他們做這樣的議題的話如果他們是外界的力量影響到我們的外管"},{"start":7895.839,"end":7919.53,"text":"我們的這個代表處要強硬運作連得談都沒有得談的時候我們還要到哪裡簽簽到我們的這個代表處應該要積極的再進行溝通有沒有緩和的疑定還是到另外一個首都因為他有三個首都嘛但是今天如果他連談都沒有談的話"},{"start":7921.138,"end":7946.464,"text":"到時候我們連機會談都沒有機會那請問一下到時候我們顏面無光啊部長你來說明一下好不好我們有應變小組也做好因應的對策我們當然堅守立場距離力爭基於對等的原則我們當然也做好應變的計畫我們外交部也已經請住處正式復函匪方"},{"start":7948.564,"end":7969.712,"text":"政府基於1997年雙邊協議規定跟精神我們拒絕匪方無理的要求不配合將住處搬遷到這個其他地方但是我們當然知道這個外交各種發展包括等等他們是不是如果他們是遵守法治的政府那當然我們這些這個"},{"start":7972.313,"end":8000.569,"text":"希望說他們跟我們能夠來協商雙邊關係那如果他們採取一些不理性的行為當然我要確保住處同仁安全還有服務僑民的功能能夠持續這個都是我們綜合考量所以剛剛委員說沒有錯他有所謂三個首都那但是這不管他幾個首都啦他對我們有這種不合理的這種要求我們先據理力爭"},{"start":8002.054,"end":8022.41,"text":"我們也逐漸有發現這個事情經過報導之後已經各界的關注包括他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨包括有重大影響力的媒體以及國際各方面對這個事情的關注所以我們會"},{"start":8025.991,"end":8054.321,"text":"所以部長有稀可行這邊也應該也有一個中非合作的論壇有影響到這個我們跟南非的關係所以這個就是我們應該要趕快因應我相信你的智慧但是在國際的壓力裡面已經造成我們國內的外交"},{"start":8055.041,"end":8055.622,"text":"外交部長林佳龍報告業務概況．"},{"start":8078.177,"end":8102.932,"text":"謝謝委員的支持這確實國內不分黨派的支持政府捍衛我們國家的主權跟尊嚴是那當然另外我再請教部長我常提的就是上次你上任的時候我也提過在吳前部長也提過就是在有原民外交的這個部分當然這個"},{"start":8104.853,"end":8124.642,"text":"我們總統也好 行政院長也好 部長也好 你們都有聽到了聽到我在這一次的提出 就希望能夠原民外交目前我們外交的困境 也借用我們原民的外交在南島語系的這個國家裡面做一個"},{"start":8126.343,"end":8145.06,"text":"前置的部隊裡面來做一個他們友誼的一個聯繫那當然有特別派出了兩個無認所的大使無認所的大使有兩個原住民一個是阿美族一個泰雅族那當然後來我一看"},{"start":8146.934,"end":8147.174,"text":"主席"},{"start":8172.282,"end":8188.599,"text":"第一對我們外交原住民的母語的這個部分第二跟實質上我們原住民的整個議題他非常的了解而不是只有宗教的了解我想宗教當然是比較溫和"},{"start":8190.12,"end":8211.009,"text":"在外交上比較溫和但是實際上會碰到一個政治問題的時候那如何他可以他可以單單勝任我們原民外交所以部長你們要審慎的領先這個原民外交當然現在以及任派但是我也希望"},{"start":8211.809,"end":8234.762,"text":"我也希望你能夠審慎在請他們在外交的實質的經驗要傳輸到你這裡來你要實質的掌握這樣才會有助於我們原民外交這樣的一個任派無認所的這個職務的一個實際上的一個任務"},{"start":8236.951,"end":8265.82,"text":"感謝委員的指導確實這個我認為原住民外交是我們總和外交很重要的一部分那我在業務報告也有再次提到那除了無論所大使這個總統任命10名有兩名就五分之一是原住民的這個背景以外我們對原住民外交的推動我有要求我們外交部的同仁要跨部會要來做這個列管"},{"start":8266.64,"end":8286.709,"text":"我們這些不管是委員或我們外交部自己在推動的重大業務那事實上我們的邦交國裡面以這個太平洋地區就是很重要的都是跟我們有相關的南島語系的背景那事實上在像我們的一些友好國家像加拿大、澳大利亞或紐西蘭其實他們都很重視原住民的經濟社會的平權"},{"start":8288.61,"end":8289.331,"text":"我目前在南太平洋有三位大使一位代表"},{"start":8318.674,"end":8344.334,"text":"根據駐外外交領事人員任用的條例大使及代表是可以做政務官任命的方式得任派因此希望未來如果有機會的話我國在南太平洋的三個大使大使館裡面有一個代表處能優先考量到援助民主來出征有沒有可能"},{"start":8345.785,"end":8370.694,"text":"我們來這是評估目前當然外交部有原住民背景的我們的同仁大概有10名我們當然至於說部外的人才我們也是密切的注意希望說能夠有優秀可以來代表我們國家能夠在我們的住處來服務"},{"start":8372.043,"end":8393.881,"text":"按照你們政務官的條例裡面也應該可以領選一個有認所的一個原住民的大使這是你要考量一下好不好因為實質上現在這樣拓展的話會有助於外交的事務以前有過就是這樣的一個斐濟我們派出斐濟那另外一個是"},{"start":8395.442,"end":8422.658,"text":"我在簡短的有關於中東駐台代表哀告顯外交危機後來這樣的一個當然這是一個非營利組織的單位裡面經過內政部的登記但是他們是以在中東裡面就發生了這種狀況要不是你們外交部行文給警戒要不然的話他沒有豁免錢"},{"start":8424.139,"end":8434.006,"text":"那如何因應這些本來外交的危機,而且最後的時候怎麼處理的?你所謂的把關是什麼?"},{"start":8451.043,"end":8453.464,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘那你來解釋一下好不好"},{"start":8469.451,"end":8469.471,"text":"什麼問題?"},{"start":8494.032,"end":8494.932,"text":"本席提醒部長還有我們司長"},{"start":8519.78,"end":8545.181,"text":"現在特別要謹慎要特別跟駐外的外交使節這一些提醒他們甚至非營利組織經過內政部同意而且登入在你們的外交裡面的入案的時候外面提醒他們因為現在我們處處都是危機如果一旦小事情就變成大事情國內就會大內宣"},{"start":8547.342,"end":8553.447,"text":"對我們外交絕對沒有幫助的好不好部長好謝謝委員提醒我們會密切注意謝謝黃仁委員部長請回"},{"start":8576.604,"end":8584.807,"text":"接下來由林一駿委員發言謝謝主席 有請部長首先請教部長不管是用中華民國還是用台灣的名義我們有沒有要爭取加入聯合國"},{"start":8602.95,"end":8627.76,"text":"還是要先爭取聯合國觀察員的資格再說呢?我們當然希望爭取成為聯合國正式的會員國那觀察員也是我們在努力的一個過程的目標那如果我們要爭取聯合國觀察員的資格那程序上是不是還需要由其他國家幫我們在聯合國大會上面提案呢?"},{"start":8629.983,"end":8656.958,"text":"是 就是說我們當然包括他的秘書處這些作業那我們的每一次聯合國的大會也都會有我們的友邦為我們發聲至於說正式的申請這當然涉及到就是綜合因素的考量那跟時機跟方式"},{"start":8658.021,"end":8676.341,"text":"因為我看過去我們一直都是有一些關係比較好的友邦的國家願意幫我們提案但是想要實質通過加入聯合國的情況其實在票數上面還是還是要有一點相當的優勢所以部長那你覺得我們國家有這種優勢嗎"},{"start":8678.482,"end":8697.362,"text":"如果讓全世界的國家都基於他們本身自主的決定不受外在的壓力我想大家都很歡迎跟台灣做朋友這個是我們在外交上就發現說因為其實就是因為中共的壓力讓很多國家可能被迫或是說不敢去表達對我們的支持"},{"start":8701.286,"end":8701.446,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":8719.192,"end":8719.353,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8734.343,"end":8761.049,"text":"190幾個"},{"start":8763.047,"end":8763.527,"text":"總共有53個是53個嗎"},{"start":8789.445,"end":8809.36,"text":"6個6個6個"},{"start":8811.308,"end":8812.549,"text":"南非有兩個啦,因為我們在開普敦"},{"start":8822.254,"end":8841.248,"text":"本席這邊有幫部長稍微整理一下表格就是聯合國193個裡面非洲如果是54個無大眾數目最多的但是我們來比例來看我們在比例來看每週有35個會員國裡面我們在16個國家都有住管比例是46%但是歐洲"},{"start":8844.07,"end":8868.148,"text":"呃"},{"start":8868.311,"end":8885.057,"text":"也是我們很重要的地區當然因為各種每個區域的狀況當然都有不一樣因為這個比例是差太多了你看部長你看一下所以我們現在也面臨了現在非洲上面的問題那是等一下我會再詢問這樣"},{"start":8888.715,"end":8908.41,"text":"那如果我們要爭取加入聯合國或者是退一步我們來說要爭取實質參與像剛才部長說的WHO還是IQ這些這兩個聯合國組織除了歐美國家之外是不是也努力爭取非洲國家的支持不然我們的提案要怎麼過呢"},{"start":8910.054,"end":8924.192,"text":"是,除了大國之外每一個國家都有一票當然也有這個安理會所謂的常任理事國否決權的問題不過我想幾乎啦我想以參加聯合國所屬的世界衛生組織"},{"start":8926.075,"end":8953.144,"text":"其實很多國家的發言都是支持但是我們之所以還沒有辦法參與就是一個對阿但是我們還是要面對這個問題嘛對不對對時機出現的時候就會就是會突破阿什麼時候是時機出現我們都沒有努力就會有時機出現大環境跟小環境啦我們這個大環境有時候我想國際情勢的變化有時候也是很快阿但機會來的時候我們要把握阿平常做好準備阿"},{"start":8953.884,"end":8966.834,"text":"其實本席可以理解因為外交部可能有其他的外交戰略的考量或許也有一些資源分配的考量但是千萬不要忘記我們在世界各地其實都有一些打拚的台商其實都是非常厲害的也非常認真而且幾乎都是默默的在為台灣拚外交就像剛才部長有說"},{"start":8976.161,"end":8979.403,"text":"其實他們長期在國外經商其實都有跟那些當地的官員往來像譬如哈羅台灣這種團體相信部長也是很熟悉他們都是一些努力在國外為台灣做國民外交的行銷台灣的台商然後另外還有像一些世界各地台商總會其實譬如我們非洲台商總會他們在非洲也深耕了很久"},{"start":9001.44,"end":9015.527,"text":"所以本席在這邊是不是建議部長未來在非洲的經營是不是也可以多跟這些當地台商一起合作外交部是不是應該也可以再深化跟台商這邊的共同合作一起在非洲行銷台灣爭取更多非洲國家在國際上對台灣的支持呢"},{"start":9021.11,"end":9037.27,"text":"其實我不管在什麼樣的身份我都很重視跟世界的台商特別包括非洲的台商會那一天委員也有出席他們在台灣辦的大會那歷屆的這些總會長我們都有很平凡的交流合作"},{"start":9038.732,"end":9064.293,"text":"非洲我是覺得因為國家多我們必須要有一個區域的政策所以我也從過去所謂的非洲的計畫我們希望能夠有個加強版就是臺非共榮的計畫那區域性的從就是我們以這個斯瓦地尼是邦交國然後再分不管是東西南北非這樣區域"},{"start":9066.172,"end":9081.579,"text":"的一個政策去做好我們對非洲邦交的關係那比如說我們有一些住處像我們在這個索馬利蘭我們其實在東非裡面扮演一個很重要的角色很多國家可能跟他沒有邦交反而需要透過跟我們合作來加強"},{"start":9084.52,"end":9085.88,"text":"蘭菲最近因為受到中國的利誘所以逼迫我們台灣把住管遷出首都"},{"start":9100.965,"end":9126.901,"text":"然後現在據我了解啦齁過去很長的一個時間我們台灣跟南非兩國其實都有很密切的外交關係來往啊所以我想部長應該是也是很清楚嘛然後在1997年南非跟我國斷交之後然後兩國的關係就開始持續的下滑了然後現在最難堪的就是連我們的住管都要求我們搬遷那請問部長你覺得南非要求我們"},{"start":9127.822,"end":9128.423,"text":"是中共的問題是不是嗎?是"},{"start":9135.578,"end":9155.929,"text":"所以其實這邊我們回顧一下中國與南非的關係我們現在來看這個事情其實是有跡可循的因為過去14年來中國都是南非最大的貿易夥伴南非也是中國在非洲最主要的出口國再加上9月初其實習近平已經跟南非的總統已經會面了還承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易逆差甚至簽了很多好多項的貿易還有技術合作的合作文件"},{"start":9165.254,"end":9191.459,"text":"那據我分析認為讓南非願意加強對台灣外交施壓的關鍵也可能就是習近平承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易赤字那今年的南非總統以40%的得票率當選弱勢的總統那縮小貿易赤字對他們鄰居國內的支持是很有幫助的那目前對於南非的要求本席看到外交部是打算要做出一些反制的措施對不對"},{"start":9194.004,"end":9196.505,"text":"對所以這部分其實我想要建議部長我們應該還是要面臨這整個問題找出問題的根源來解決問題因為我現在是非常擔心欸非常擔心外交部如果真的動用手段會不會來反制南非那實際上是不是會讓我們兩國的關係更惡劣呢"},{"start":9213.53,"end":9217.634,"text":"而且現在剛才有部長也有說嘛說像我現在擔心的是10月30號也快到了剛剛部長有說有成立了應變小組在處理這個事情然後現在進度到底在哪裡呢而且到底外交部有沒有隨時的在追蹤呢這點其實我們都很想知道欸其實我們也是都很擔心的"},{"start":9233.868,"end":9259.302,"text":"我們除了開會也有群組我們隨時跟第一線包括我們對南非的駐館我們也都保持聯繫我剛剛委員講其實所謂南非跟我們的經貿的關係雖然說大概就是一年大概十幾億的美金當然進出口其實我們是逆差的所以實際上對它影響是更大另外其實南非的整個國際的經貿它現在是債務國"},{"start":9263.504,"end":9278.355,"text":"他受制於中國一帶一路之後變成很多債務的陷阱那所以站在其實南非的國家利益啊還是希望跟應該跟台灣維持關係那如果有外力介入當然少數的政治人物也許他自己厲害的考量"},{"start":9278.775,"end":9302.071,"text":"但是跟多數的南非包括所有他們的這個民意都認為說為什麼跟台灣的關係都運作的還算平順啊那怎麼26年的這個關係要刻意而且南非是應該是不結盟的國家怎麼會做人家的這個好像是人家的這個中共的這個打手一樣"},{"start":9303.415,"end":9308.46,"text":"這個其實已經引起了很多的反彈了所以我們現在也是因為透過這個時間其實在廣泛的跟各界這個溝通部長我還是想請問一下如果10月30號你們的應變的話你們有沒有如果還是沒有進展會怎麼樣的處理呢"},{"start":9319.65,"end":9338.597,"text":"因為我們是有所謂雙邊的這個關係的架構那也必須要協商這不是他單方面可以決定的那如果他訴諸非法的行動我們當然也會捍衛我們的權利但我們也會重視我們的這個住管人員的安全"},{"start":9339.617,"end":9358.161,"text":"還有我們這個這個僑民的這些領悟的服務啊我們必須要兼顧嘛剛剛有委員包括黃委員提到我們當然有其他的住處也是可以有一些功能嘛所以這個是我們都做好各種的方案但希望還有轉圜的餘地但是如果對方還是呢一意孤行那我們會基於對等的原則啊來做應處"},{"start":9363.324,"end":9378.576,"text":"其實我還是希望外交部還是要盡各種的努力要想辦法維持我們和南非的友好關係甚至或許會增加非洲其他國家的住管增加台灣的外交空間我想這是外交部必須要努力的"},{"start":9379.372,"end":9404.908,"text":"是 我們總和外交當然實質外交的功能我們都還是會希望維護但是因為涉及到我們不能夠不對等我們一定要基於這個原則因為外交還是一個互惠這個對等的一個國家的行為這一點我們一定是會來捍衛也感謝其實包括外交國防委員會我們委員們對我們的這個支持跟勉勵好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"},{"start":9409.343,"end":9413.766,"text":"謝謝我們林議員的發言接下來由洪森漢委員發言請林部長"},{"start":9439.491,"end":9439.952,"text":"林佳龍報告業務概況"},{"start":9456.027,"end":9456.287,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9475.685,"end":9493.62,"text":"對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方他會提出批判這是公民社會我們看到的常態很多這樣的團體他其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分他們其實最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題所以我還是想請你再說一次就是說台灣當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼"},{"start":9496.332,"end":9513.599,"text":"我知道因為我當時在國安會因為高英茂委員那時候在有同事所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解我在美國的時候也有參與美國的這個民主基金會所以對這個20年來的發展可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心"},{"start":9515.408,"end":9526.628,"text":"我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大台灣在民主跟人權價值上尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力這部分是很關鍵尤其是在要對抗中國的威權擴張的部分"},{"start":9531.174,"end":9557.272,"text":"這一兩個月的時間其實也有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論一些相關的議題那大家確實都還很關注幾件事情在9月25號的時候民主基金會我們通過了包括廖雅琦執行長執行長的人事的同意案那廖老師當然在過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定這部分在專業上面這是廖老師的專業"},{"start":9558.633,"end":9586.97,"text":"但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟包括執行長這邊來回答民主基金會因為他當在我們臺灣的整體的外交的運作上面他等於像是二軌的這個他算是個民間機構但是有點是我們二軌關鍵二軌外交重要的資產所以大家都很關心說執行長其實對於我們外交路線的態度跟總統是不是一致這部分"},{"start":9588.294,"end":9614.708,"text":"部長你的態度是什麼因為總統是國家元首那代表國家行使外交權那我想這個是民主基金會當然會依據總統他領導國政的大方針來推動惡鬼外交我們請執行長他很有經驗的你覺得這個民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致"},{"start":9616.4,"end":9640.052,"text":"應該是完全可以配合的而且我們是在受外交部這邊整個做我們的最重要的督導單位所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的一些活動我們其實都是從過去以來到現在都是這樣所以在路線上面或在運作的方針上不該有漢格嘛對不對這應該是很明確的對這是外交嘛在外交上面不該有漢格"},{"start":9641.292,"end":9666.351,"text":"這是大家現在還是會關注的議題雖然我們其實我覺得當時大家找到了一個朝野之間共同的人選方案也是廖老師作為這個方案大家還是非常關注這個事情所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題當然大家就問說如果外交部跟民主基金會理念有漢格的話在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害或者是外交資源運作的不好"},{"start":9667.56,"end":9671.868,"text":"那大家覺得社會會是要找總統負責還是找我們現在國會議長、韓國議長、院長來負責?你覺得?"},{"start":9676.234,"end":9705.639,"text":"其實您說的是一個假設性問題從過去到現在都還沒有出現你覺得如果漢革你覺得因為這是假設性問題基本上我們都是配合外交部所以不容易出現所謂漢革的狀態同時也跟您補充一下院長就是我們的董事長也非常支持我們做整體的跟國家配合的外交他也覺得臺灣民主基金會最重要定位就是在深化跟亞洲自由民主的NGO座"},{"start":9705.759,"end":9706.28,"text":"下一張再下一張"},{"start":9716.83,"end":9744.138,"text":"這個是大概民主基金會在2015當時馬政府時期有一個補助的計畫那這個補助計畫他補助了這個中國大陸跟亞投行一帶一路倡議這個策略與變遷研討會那我想請問一下部長你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值他是民主輸出現在中國的一帶一路大國際上尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出"},{"start":9746.147,"end":9771.314,"text":"跟委員說如果是探討其實都應該探討有時候要知己知彼但是如果他的內容或是涉及到立場我們也是多元呈現但是當然政府的政策比如說你這個一帶一路造成的問題我們不能只是歌功頌德他的負面的效應尤其現在的數位思路你覺得現在中國的一帶一路就目前我們台灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話算是民主輸出還威權輸出"},{"start":9772.834,"end":9786.032,"text":"其實它是我們講的所謂透過一帶一路其實是影響了很多國家其實朝向不是一個擅自的發展就是說債務啦 陷阱"},{"start":9788.115,"end":9807.131,"text":"那另外就是透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路像這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難"},{"start":9809.212,"end":9819.217,"text":"這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得一帶一路中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出"},{"start":9820.932,"end":9821.372,"text":"一帶一路是威權疏散民主政營"},{"start":9842.503,"end":9865.352,"text":"一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你沒有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是"},{"start":9866.072,"end":9887.903,"text":"我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子"},{"start":9889.324,"end":9889.624,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9910.575,"end":9910.875,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9930.868,"end":9930.948,"text":"同意嗎?"},{"start":9947.149,"end":9964.475,"text":"同意他會有他的企圖所以我的意思說我們當然不會說台灣是一個多人言論自由的地方我們不會說不能討論但我覺得很重要的事情是在民主基金會的運作包括外交部的指導下的運作我覺得民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚"},{"start":9965.916,"end":9988.4,"text":"不能在價值的方針上面有所遲疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才再說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做"},{"start":9993.721,"end":9997.063,"text":"十年前十年後確實情況越來越清楚因為這個一帶一路的這種威權輸出他透過所謂的投資事實上在控制也造成貪腐"},{"start":10019.938,"end":10042.939,"text":"那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇"},{"start":10043.66,"end":10070.061,"text":"部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上"},{"start":10070.822,"end":10089.383,"text":"我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的"},{"start":10091.886,"end":10092.487,"text":"林佳龍報告業務概況"},{"start":10108.035,"end":10134.371,"text":"部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制"},{"start":10135.491,"end":10149.56,"text":"因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個"},{"start":10158.191,"end":10159.552,"text":"最基本的原則是基於對等"},{"start":10185.643,"end":10213.037,"text":"任之下來研擬如果我們不做對等的策略的研擬可能會導致什麼結果部長那就是也可能會有骨牌效應啊然後得寸進尺啊那我們國人也不會支持啊所以我們一定是要據理力爭那最後他如果不遵守協議或法律是他沒有辦法得到國內外輿論的支持我要世界很大想要跟台灣交往的國家很多"},{"start":10214.057,"end":10237.358,"text":"跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼。"},{"start":10239.147,"end":10261.992,"text":"我覺得這個對等尤其我們在很多外交工作上面都必須基於這個對等的原則所以這不是只是一個簡單的報復或者是什麼是基於一個對等的原則如果沒有辦法用一個對等的原則來處理我們的外交工作的話它可能會造成什麼樣子國家利益的損害或者是對於什麼負面的影響我覺得這部分要講清楚對等的概念它不是只是一個口號"},{"start":10263.312,"end":10276.862,"text":"不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制"},{"start":10278.883,"end":10300.038,"text":"這部分我覺得他的理由他的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦中非合作論壇他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能"},{"start":10300.999,"end":10329.57,"text":"类似南非的状况他现在当然这是一个案例但确实也有可能在其他国家还会发生我们在心里面心里知道还有可能发生但这个发生的原因并不是因为台湾做错了什么事情而是中共霸道的行径持续的还在扩大之中这我们很清楚所以大家会对于接下来可能会再发生的状况我自己最后还是建议我觉得外交部还是要做好一个"},{"start":10330.73,"end":10350.218,"text":"預先性的因應而不是在一個一個案例出來以後那大家覺得又一個又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情"},{"start":10351.363,"end":10374.726,"text":"我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好"},{"start":10375.543,"end":10398.339,"text":"我覺得這部分還是希望部長要多費心在這相關的跟社會包括論述也好說明也好這部分是我們需要做的部長可以嗎對可以非常同意那確實我們其實世界之大喜歡跟台灣來往比如我們最近新設處的也有在印度的孟買這個就是代表我們實質關係對彼此都很重要我們中東歐國家"},{"start":10399.42,"end":10400.7,"text":"中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權"},{"start":10427.329,"end":10455.786,"text":"我們堅持自己的主權是沒有錯的今天他不打壓我們只有一種可能就是我們不堅持自己的主權了他才可能停止對我們的打壓我覺得這件事我們要跟社會表達清楚這是我最後給部長的建議勇敢自信世界同行台灣是世界的台灣我們也要走向世界一起努力謝謝謝謝洪森漢委員部長請回然後待會陳冠廷委員質詢完畢後休息五分鐘接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢"},{"start":10465.091,"end":10465.312,"text":"林佳龍報告業務"},{"start":10476.104,"end":10503.584,"text":"部長好委員長辛苦了這個已經都快要到中午了剛剛特別看到您的這個報告可以說這個外交同仁在外交上面的努力的成果其實在中國跟我們的國際困境上面大家真的非常努力包括報告提到從今年5月就您上任之後到現在才幾個月的時間已經有超過2300位的友邦高層或是理念相近的政要來訪台"},{"start":10504.785,"end":10507.946,"text":"那麼我們也知道我們的前總統蔡英文其實在昨天凌晨也剛結束了這個歐洲行那麼他除了參加捷克的公園2000論壇然後呢還到法國啦比利時甚至於是第一位台灣的卸任元首到了歐洲議會"},{"start":10523.451,"end":10536.4,"text":"的總部可以說是第一位我們的現任委員首到這邊去訪問我想外交的同仁肯定做出了非常多的努力那麼本席今天就這個外交委員會的這個詢答也真的要給我們在第一線外交打拚的外交同仁給予最高的肯定跟鼓勵大家真的這一路上辛苦了因為面對的打壓本席在8月9月的時候特別到了歐洲幾個國家去訪問"},{"start":10550.069,"end":10550.109,"text":"小英總統﹖"},{"start":10572.849,"end":10586.31,"text":"剛從捷克回來但是呢在總統出發之前其實就已經有許多媒體在放消息喔說歐洲國家有一些領袖啦高層其實沒那麼希望小英總統"},{"start":10587.452,"end":10613.025,"text":"代表現任委員首代表台灣代表我們現在的賴清德總統來出訪已經有媒體放這種風聲結果居然還被本席發現是就在小英前總統出訪前我們居然捷克發出了這個灰色警訊那這就覺得好奇怪了怎麼會在這個時候在10月11號的時候有這樣的一個動作部長你知道嗎所以"},{"start":10614.726,"end":10621.912,"text":"這個捷克變得不安全嗎那如果不安全的話是因為中國打壓還是之前我們的蕭美琴副總統在就任前到訪也發生過事件啊如果是這樣的時候這個警示燈到底是怎麼樣出現的黃色橙色灰色那這個又代表什麼樣的意思呢部長"},{"start":10636.283,"end":10655.84,"text":"是啦,這個容易引起誤會啦,什麼灰色警示明明就有改善啊,所以我看到也覺得有點突兀委員也有跟我反應啦,所以我請同仁去做一些檢討啦你用灰色,這個是不是比較傾向於比較相對安全嘛,然後又警示"},{"start":10656.681,"end":10658.402,"text":"警戒的國家才分成四個等級紅橙黃灰那也可以沒有不需要警戒的國家"},{"start":10684.716,"end":10687.619,"text":"所以這個警示燈灰色的意思到底是警示是安全還是不安全那麼這樣的區隔到底是怎麼來的比如說灰色"},{"start":10705.595,"end":10722.39,"text":"警示表示提醒注意注意什麼有很多要注意的可能是比如說像東南亞國家有的時候會有一些流行性的疾病正在出現有沒有可能做一些改善比如說像橙色很明顯的他就告訴你說非必要"},{"start":10723.371,"end":10752.546,"text":"就不要去旅行了避免非必要的旅行橙色就是要注意旅行安全但灰色是提醒注意提醒注意什麼可不可以更明確否則大家也會覺得說那你有什麼好像沒什麼我也搞不懂比如說如果我現在要去捷克我是國人我到底要注意什麼那像這個部分的擬定有沒有可能更細緻尤其是我們都知道灰色就是曖昧不明可是你的提示又這麼的曖昧不明我真的有看沒有懂"},{"start":10753.632,"end":10769.078,"text":"各國大致上都是分成三到四等那我們分四等灰色是最輕微的大致上都是要注意一下治安這些最輕微的部長在這裡啦部長我們就是在灰色的部分我們就寫得清楚一點"},{"start":10769.958,"end":10793.906,"text":"那讓國人不要恐慌尤其是像面對這樣的狀況的時候如果今天部長沒有講清楚的話大家都會覺得說欸阿是不是要給我們的這個小英前總統要出訪之前出了一道難題嗎是不是讓這些惡意來做文章的媒體更有機會來借題發揮好嗎這個灰色是不是更能更明確但是我們都知道紅色"},{"start":10795.697,"end":10807.531,"text":"部長紅色是不是就希望國人盡量不要去對啊紅燈就是悟行啊紅燈悟行嘛最好是不要去啊好但是呢包括現在我看到的幾個紅燈就是烏克蘭北韓伊拉克"},{"start":10811.315,"end":10831.971,"text":"還有中非共和國以及南美洲的委內瑞拉這幾個國家有的可能是正在戰火那有些可能是疫情的關係或其他的狀況所以如果舊部長認為是不應該去但是部長你知道嗎我最近分別收到了幾個案例其中呢他就是因為國人"},{"start":10834.468,"end":10854.998,"text":"因為有一些身份的問題或者是經濟的問題我們領事局這裡居然是要求國人要到這些紅色警示區的國家請他們去拿一些證明可能是他本人可能是他的配偶那麼在本席接受到這個陳情之後去了解"},{"start":10856.394,"end":10856.794,"text":"我請來林副主有沒有"},{"start":10885.336,"end":10903.765,"text":"我簡單跟委員報告就是我們所有這些警戒分級是外管在現地包括根據現地的情況跟根據各國公佈的狀況報回來的一些建議之後再經過地域評估之後才會去做公佈"},{"start":10904.845,"end":10931.397,"text":"那如果是被列為紅色的話基本上我們就不鼓勵國人去因為這個可能會有發生危險的這個之魚啦所以他是這樣子的那當然剛剛講的紅塵黃灰依照輕重程度不同的話基本上灰色只是善盡提醒那這個東西已經行之多年每三個月會做例行性的請外管報會所以它不是突然發生這樣的情況"},{"start":10932.042,"end":10958.186,"text":"好我本期要問的題目很簡單就是說第一個前面剛剛我們已經調溝通過就是灰色要更明確但是紅色警戒區的部分包括理事局這裡或是部長這裡都認為紅色就是紅燈霧行但是現在如果是紅色警戒區國人因為比如說經濟的貿易往來又或者是像內政部營利署"},{"start":10959.247,"end":10978.183,"text":"相關的身份的認證那必須要到這些國家去才能夠拿到相關的文件跟資料的時候就外交部的立場或者是領事局的立場可不可以去那如果去了有生命的危險的時候有沒有可能做一些"},{"start":10979.084,"end":10987.644,"text":"發布會的溝通來簡化這些文件的認證的過程避免國人身陷險境這是本席其實要問的第二個問題部長"},{"start":10991.021,"end":11017.477,"text":"就是說如果已經是紅色的這個警示當然安全是第一那用什麼方式可以來做如果設置到有一些要辦理的事情是不是我們林副局來研究一下就是比如說鄰近國家或者是用什麼樣的其他的網路的方式或是有什麼樣的證明可以來減少這個風險"},{"start":11020.038,"end":11037.779,"text":"因為本席追蹤這個問題就是因為陳情人他們就在委內瑞拉或者是像烏克蘭這種充滿了高度危險性的那麼當時外交部或者相關單位給的答案就是說那你可以在台灣有辦事處或者是有相關的這個"},{"start":11039.981,"end":11067.352,"text":"可以處理公文件認證的單位但是我們知道在台灣並不是所有的這些沒有邦交的國家的友邦都在台灣駐有相關的辦事處所以在這個部分本席希望有剛剛部長的承諾可以再跟其他的相關的部會做一些橫向的聯繫不要讓國人非得到這些紅色警戒區去走一趟不然這個紅色警戒根本就是開玩笑當遇到真正要處理的事情的時候"},{"start":11068.292,"end":11093.872,"text":"連站在我們的中央部會都沒有辦法給予協助那這個聽起來就會覺得很奇怪好嗎部長好另外一個本席其實要請這個部長來看一下這兩張圖是本席找到的一個是波蘭的便利商店的巨頭另外一個是索菲亞電動運輸公司的電動巴士我不知道部長看了這兩個圖有沒有什麼感受"},{"start":11098.902,"end":11100.324,"text":"公眾會有在現場嗎 公眾會的執行長來 公眾會"},{"start":11119.581,"end":11134.05,"text":"時間有限我就來講一下其實這個是本席在國和會的投融資計畫就是歐盈氣候高影響力的基金當中我們看到的一個比如說就是波蘭零售永續"},{"start":11135.171,"end":11158.106,"text":"融資子計畫當中我們投融資的言下之意這是什麼這個其實是一個就是現在部長非常在乎的我們國際上面的所謂融幫計畫也算是其中的一環就是台灣台灣can help對但是就會發現說你看本席這個照片一拿出來只有在國和會看到其實是台灣can help的一個實力我要強調的是"},{"start":11159.83,"end":11178.884,"text":"我們做了很多但是有時候我們的對內宣傳或者是對內的論述不夠我知道現在很多在野黨的委員一直在批評說我們是拿這個政府的預算在做所謂大內宣大外宣"},{"start":11179.665,"end":11180.226,"text":"來 部長 要不要回應一下"},{"start":11206.806,"end":11207.506,"text":"委員會主持國和會"},{"start":11226.946,"end":11227.126,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":11247.937,"end":11269.333,"text":"產業的這個強項還有解決方案我們都輸出所以像電動巴士啊這個就是非常好的就是大家都想發展那台灣已經很成熟另外像這個對於他們的這個微創或輕創這些事情我們會加強那就是因為這個其實是公共外交很重要的一部分"},{"start":11270.174,"end":11298.125,"text":"對外交要除了只是用力的做之外我們也要對外來宣揚跟宣傳台灣可以help其實持續有在做但是不要只有國和會看得到其他地方看不到因為這樣子包括大家民眾在這些駐在國的時候包括我們的台商才有更多的素材跟更大的力道協助我們一起從一軌二軌到民眾大家一起來做外交好謝謝"},{"start":11302.787,"end":11308.93,"text":"謝謝林楚瑩委員部長請回接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們請部長請林部長"},{"start":11332.512,"end":11355.958,"text":"委員好部長這個對台灣來講最重要的邦交國我想是包含安全上面的保障還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國可是我們的駐美辦事處最近應該也不是最近是今年其實旅船霸凌婚外情不當使用公款黑函公文外泄甚至是行程資訊訪團的言行都被出來爆料"},{"start":11356.718,"end":11385.459,"text":"所以我們在想說這樣國人是在對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心我想請教一下這些事情發生到現在大概是三個月了三個多月了其他的駐出外館我沒有看到有這麼頻繁的類似的這種狀況出現今天國防部也發生這個顧立雄部長還有這一個將官情報員的個資外流所以我們是很擔心這一些資訊我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題反而流出在外面"},{"start":11386.079,"end":11414.941,"text":"這是操之在己的這不是敵對勢力在做的所以我們必須要知道說外交部也好有沒有相關的措施有 其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料"},{"start":11415.521,"end":11443.858,"text":"因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討"},{"start":11444.838,"end":11446.059,"text":"部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭"},{"start":11470.609,"end":11494.449,"text":"每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試射安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會"},{"start":11495.43,"end":11496.591,"text":"在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣"},{"start":11514.779,"end":11535.445,"text":"也就是說不管是政黨 包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統"},{"start":11536.405,"end":11545.741,"text":"如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善"},{"start":11546.804,"end":11574.998,"text":"是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視"},{"start":11576.259,"end":11601.12,"text":"在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮,怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意,就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊寫出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官的"},{"start":11601.34,"end":11606.002,"text":"第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同?"},{"start":11631.101,"end":11631.121,"text":"部長"},{"start":11660.557,"end":11683.111,"text":"而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對 其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的"},{"start":11683.931,"end":11694.083,"text":"但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個"},{"start":11698.908,"end":11716.327,"text":"白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分"},{"start":11716.767,"end":11740.255,"text":"不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往或許長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實"},{"start":11741.395,"end":11764.988,"text":"幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原則但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法一個中國"},{"start":11765.888,"end":11794.71,"text":"但是事實上內容是不同版本對當然是不同版本但是對我們來說對台灣來講增強台灣的印象包含我們是一個主權獨立的國家等等印象可能不適合再用一中政策這樣子的說法所以如果有機會我認為台灣的外交部可以跟各國來去通知他們說或者是跟他們表達說或許他們可以用新的這個名詞來定義這個台灣跟他們國家的關係我覺得這個比較妥當的是現在很多國家用印太戰略"},{"start":11795.791,"end":11803.854,"text":"的這個對中的政策而不是用什麼其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯合國這個2458號決議美國的這個4點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚"},{"start":11812.298,"end":11827.896,"text":"部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道"},{"start":11828.336,"end":11828.596,"text":"維持台海的和平跟穩定是"},{"start":11848.464,"end":11875.763,"text":"這些理念相近或民主國家的共識那我覺得這裡面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說"},{"start":11877.544,"end":11896.772,"text":"現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不是針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海"},{"start":11898.272,"end":11921.977,"text":"這一個情形它是它的威權的輸出除了一帶一路最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的推動者所以這個認定也在NATO在G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的威權的擴張"},{"start":11925.56,"end":11941.187,"text":"已經對以規則為基礎的國際秩序造成很大的挑戰部長講得非常好基本上綜合剛才講的就是第一個當中國想要內海化台灣海峽的時候我們就把它國際化所以我們鼓勵自由航行各個軍艦來那第二個部分就是把"},{"start":11941.727,"end":11962.724,"text":"跟我們有共同利害的國家集團化也就是說中國他想把俄羅斯跟北朝鮮還有這個甚至是這個伊朗把他們在集體化他們情報共享經濟共享甚至軍事協助但我們也要強調我國的利益跟我們的利害跟日本跟菲律賓甚至是跟美國還有一些歐洲國家都是一致的"},{"start":11963.024,"end":11981.194,"text":"所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的青老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國"},{"start":11982.034,"end":11985.817,"text":"在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會"},{"start":12002.748,"end":12025.815,"text":"他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個"},{"start":12028.601,"end":12044.86,"text":"南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略"},{"start":12046.089,"end":12056.081,"text":"我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍"},{"start":12064.051,"end":12087.403,"text":"整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式"},{"start":12088.163,"end":12109.601,"text":"台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的"},{"start":12109.941,"end":12110.542,"text":"外交資源配置"},{"start":12131.078,"end":12158.38,"text":"我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強"},{"start":12159.501,"end":12188.48,"text":"可以建立更全面而深入的夥伴關係最近我們在開公聽會談到這個太空政策那印度的辦事處副代表就跟我們談到說那印度這個的太空計畫是全球最便宜的包含發射等等都是最便宜的所以我認為說其實跟印度的交往的時候經貿之外科技之間就充滿了潛力了那還是再次強調說重新來做盤整資源投放在刀口上面"},{"start":12189.961,"end":12213.895,"text":"我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性"},{"start":12215.376,"end":12218.802,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員部長請回那我們先休息5分鐘"},{"start":12610.56,"end":12616.386,"text":"那繼續開會我們現在請林德福委員上台質詢謝謝主席是不是請外交部林部長請林部長"},{"start":12640.714,"end":12652.101,"text":"部長你好部長你好我要請教齁因為民調顯示54%的國人阿主張台灣永遠阿維持現狀阿另外一份民調顯示如果兩岸發生戰爭"},{"start":12653.737,"end":12654.157,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12678.797,"end":12679.037,"text":"部長你有什麼看法?"},{"start":12697.288,"end":12722.478,"text":"當然這保家衛國是每一個國民我想他的共識所以我們有時候是不管是國防或新防怎麼去加強就是說來止戰甚至讓他無戰這當然是目標但是如果我們沒有自我防衛的決心跟能力的時候也可能會引誘對方的發動戰爭"},{"start":12728.059,"end":12754.966,"text":"因為本席認為說國軍做好萬全準備來因應國家安全威脅及挑戰這個跟我們駐美的大使余大雷代表說台灣民眾準備好作戰是完全不相同的一種概念因此駐美代表余大雷接受媒體的發言會讓外國友邦與人民產生誤解"},{"start":12756.918,"end":12757.799,"text":"你有什麼看法呢?"},{"start":12783.905,"end":12809.988,"text":"我對於余大使的發言我後期詳細了解我覺得他講的並沒有錯後來媒體有一些可能有引用有出入的地方他是講說因為他被問到如果中國對台灣這個發動這個戰爭的侵略的時候那台灣怎麼辦他是他講說"},{"start":12811.564,"end":12838.898,"text":"the Taiwanese are ready to fight if China invades所以那個全局是這樣你不能夠去頭去尾或者說把這個頭尾顛倒據說好像變得很好戰沒有啦我們是要和平的啦我們是要防衛事實上我們要行使我們的抵抗權嘛這是國人的共識不然中共發動對台戰爭的時候那我們除了抵抗還能夠我們要另外的選項嗎"},{"start":12846.961,"end":12865.968,"text":"因為他本身在那裡接受訪問應該要很嚴謹啦我有看過前後文啦因為他是10月4號的訪問接受這個福斯嘛他們的這個新聞台的這個訪問所以我認為那個發言沒有什麼問題啦就是說如果你我們切一段來看好像變成說我們在主當要戰爭不是"},{"start":12868.289,"end":12868.67,"text":"你的看法呢?"},{"start":12896.288,"end":12896.648,"text":"我希望維持跟兩黨互動好的關係"},{"start":12921.215,"end":12935.127,"text":"哪一個當選總統還不知道那這個是非常非常重要保持等據那外媒報導前總統蔡英文預計未來幾週這個內來訪問美國目前傳出選舉前選舉後兩種說法時機都尚未確定那我請問林部長你是我有聽聞蔡英文前總統11月"},{"start":12947.538,"end":12971.278,"text":"規劃出訪美國進行演講與喬介會面有沒有因為這個如果是蔡前總統他有什麼樣的規劃要由他辦公室來說明那我不帶了解那外界就是在好奇前總統蔡英文辦公室是否有向外交部提出需求協助安排出訪美國相關的禮遇事情"},{"start":12971.798,"end":12991.705,"text":"李懿的事宜有沒有應該講說其實包括歐洲啦美國啦很多國家對蔡前總統的邀訪很多那他決定什麼時候什麼地方有沒有到外交部去申請嗎目前沒有是委員講的那個所謂的在哪一個確定的什麼行程"},{"start":12994.038,"end":13014.386,"text":"2023年6月外交部在例行記者會上指南非治安持續惡化平均每小時有3人遭謀殺來提醒南非僑胞與旅客要注意安全據了解南非政府有針對外交領事館區特別設置警力24小時來加強尋守"},{"start":13018.818,"end":13044.533,"text":"故相較於南非其他城市比如說約翰尼斯堡首都然後普利托利亞的治安相對比較好那媒體報導南非政府要求我方代表處在10月底前簽出首都普利托利亞希望外交部繼續努力爭取維持現狀若沒有辦法挽回本行是希望說外交部"},{"start":13045.529,"end":13065.765,"text":"要確保南非管署的同仁權益以及人身的安全部長你有什麼看法是對一方面我們當然是捍衛我們權益據理力爭不會說輕易或是放棄又是對方單方面的這個毀約的行為那至於說我們的"},{"start":13070.709,"end":13092.363,"text":"住管的人員的安全還有就是說我們在南非的這些領務工作我們當然會考慮到怎麼樣能夠延續不中斷不中斷最重要但是就是說那些住管因為他們現在所住宅地他們現在那個地方是比較安全"},{"start":13093.644,"end":13098.371,"text":"大使館區嗎對啊要是讓你們遷移的話你們真的要盡量去維護讓他能夠再維持原來的這種狀況"},{"start":13108.14,"end":13123.212,"text":"我們現在還是在具體力爭中啊沒有說就是逃避他片面的違約的要求啊那其他各國在那裡設管處有沒有這樣的要求有沒有還是唯獨只有針對我們"},{"start":13124.639,"end":13144.157,"text":"因為大家知道背後是因為中共的壓力嘛這個其他國家當然不一樣阿我是希望外交部盡力全力去維護我們外管他們這些住宅人員阿他們的安全這個是最重要的謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林德浦委員部長請回好謝謝"},{"start":13151.584,"end":13155.668,"text":"接下來我們請羅許廷委員上台質詢好謝謝主席外交部長有請有請外交部長"},{"start":13172.549,"end":13182.027,"text":"部長午安這幾個重大時事請教一下外交部的一些意見當然剛剛前面很多委員也關心我們的余大雷大使說我們已經做好準備"},{"start":13183.354,"end":13211.332,"text":"這個面對戰爭我們要學習烏克蘭不需要美國的援助這個事情不是遇到侵略的時候大家要不要迎難而上的問題當然要迎難而上啊有誰會不保衛自己的國家呢對不對所以我是覺得外交部在評論這件事情的時候不要放錯重點大家都要迎難而上可是我覺得這件事情最大的問題是講不需要美國援助這是一個很大的事情請問部長不依靠美軍美軍不用出兵是否已經成為我們中華民國外交部的官方立場"},{"start":13212.988,"end":13229.366,"text":"根據《台灣關係法》美國如果是要能夠來提供台灣自我防禦的能力以外當然也有相對應的所謂六項保證"},{"start":13230.8,"end":13258.655,"text":"在政治上來講尤其是國內安定民心的角度來講大家都期待尤其是民進黨政府執政的期間對不對除了抗中保台之外我們也是全球所謂的民主大聯盟的重要議員從美方的角度來出發讓重要民國維持民主國家的地位避免中共的擴張是不是美國重要的國家戰略意義很重要應該是很重要對不對對所以在過去我們所看到的所有的宣傳啊語言上是不是都說他們會支持我們"},{"start":13259.636,"end":13267.376,"text":"那現在中國大陸這邊大軍壓境對不對動輒文攻武嚇萬一真的哪一天走到戰爭的時候我們真的不需要美軍的幫忙嗎"},{"start":13268.843,"end":13280.796,"text":"我們很希望美軍能夠協助台灣來對抗這個中國的侵略啊很希望啊你講我們要學烏克蘭不需要哪一個才是真的而且各種的法律通過的還有這些撥款相關的這些包括他們的這個"},{"start":13291.628,"end":13306.19,"text":"參眾兩院通過的法律那個都是有效的當真正遇到大型的國際衝突甚至到戰爭的時候當然很多的情勢就會改變了我現在問外交部的是這到底是不是我們的官方主張因為余大雷是重要的角色他在美國的福斯新聞受了專訪"},{"start":13306.971,"end":13311.134,"text":"因為大家很關心我詳細看過他的訪問我覺得他講的也是就是說台灣有自我防衛的能力如果中共侵略台灣那我們當然要抵抗"},{"start":13322.782,"end":13342.418,"text":"有一套的說法就大概在媒體輿論上面講叫以美論也就是說大家在挑戰說他們真的會出兵嗎?真的會大力協助嗎?大家就扣這個是以美論對不對那現在是等於我們中華民國最外對外的正式的官方代表等於在唱和之間不用不用來所以我講這是很嚴重我希望部長你做好準備啦"},{"start":13343.058,"end":13362.053,"text":"你現在在美國人面前他如果是我們重要的盟友如果民主大聯盟的戰略價值那是不可動搖的那從重要民國的國家安全國家立場裡面你當然要在美國人面前積極主張嘛你當然要主張必要的時候你當然要出兵協防因為這是這是避免威權國家極權擴張的重要的防線"},{"start":13363.254,"end":13382.629,"text":"我們要不要做這樣的主張部長當然自助人助嘛我們一定要自己就是說要有這個保護自己的這個決心跟能力嘛那我們的友邦他們也一定會來協助我們嘛來維護我們這個民主自由我覺得你今天的回答沒有很有底氣"},{"start":13383.269,"end":13405.412,"text":"剛好明明大雷公使在外面受訪是在福斯新聞馬上現在是美國大選川普又曾經講這個我們是絕對不會出兵的你如果今天我們的官方立場不講清楚不積極主張沒有啦他沒有講絕對不出兵啦你很難去認你很難去不讓大家去聯想這是被押寶而且是順應我再次強調既然美國是我們重要的盟友"},{"start":13406.013,"end":13423.088,"text":"我們都要維繫兩邊的關係是我們都完全支持也不會反對我們都希望外交人好好發揮但是問題就是支持不代表你要百分之百順應啊我很擔心這樣子的言論你講這樣的言論也許背後有一些外交上的戰略考量還是說部長你要分享一下他這樣去講"},{"start":13424.15,"end":13438.648,"text":"請問對我國國家利益有什麼具體的幫助背後的戰略考量是什麼你如果在這一部分你可以講出一套論述一套說明讓國內的民心可以安定那也就算了是但看起來從你剛剛答詢是講法條的東西或什麼的我提醒部長這個事情要"},{"start":13439.349,"end":13468.306,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們過去跟川普政府跟拜登政府都有很好的合作而且美國是參眾兩院跨黨派支持台灣他們都已經把支持的話講得這麼清楚了為了安全要全球共同這是全世界的事情不是我們自己的事情是全世界的事情這樣才能夠最大化這個國際上對我們的支持跟聲援才能夠最大化我們國家安全的利益"},{"start":13468.786,"end":13491.628,"text":"我們期待看到外交部的立場是這樣台灣是全世界的事情但是全世界包含具體的軍事協助你不能夠自己講自己自結武裝這是不對的外交在戰場上自己武裝是不對的這一定要小心為之這重點不是我們要不要對抗當然要對抗人家都親門他戶了每一個人這是我們國民的義務可是全世界也要幫忙"},{"start":13492.468,"end":13518.74,"text":"全社會防禦這個任性的加強就是我們的決心之一從余大連的講話到全社會什麼防禦動員任性就是學烏克蘭他們有幫烏克蘭嗎這就是我們擔心的事情嘛所以請積極主張好不好這是我非常重要的提醒第二個重要的時事這個今天上頭版阿拉伯組織了一個非官方的詐騙集團然後反過來告我們正式住在這邊的大使"},{"start":13519.46,"end":13538.701,"text":"那不是笑話一則嗎?部長我知道你前面也回答過剛剛徐小青委員有關心對不對你講說你會積極處理是人民團體的登記當然主責是在內政部嘛主責在內政部的時候這個以NGO為名義來登錄可是請問他最近這段時間做的是包含說他可以提供文件認證以及商務開拓這個是NGO的工作嗎?部長"},{"start":13539.932,"end":13559.335,"text":"其實他有向內政部登記為社團他如果違反了他登記的這個目的那有進行這個商務的行為是不是明確的違法這個如果違法就要辦啊要辦對不對司法機關還有就是大家就是要他跟台灣人民是有受害人那個在官司進行"},{"start":13560.356,"end":13571.961,"text":"我們這個部分是屬於就是說因為我們那個駐台的這三個代表處或辦事處嘛他們有被這個司法這個包括警察所謂的要傳訊的我們這個部分我們要確保這個外交豁免權啊"},{"start":13578.363,"end":13594.113,"text":"國際機關對於外交後面的概念不夠清楚這是另外一回事但現在問題是這個這個為組織在外面繼續招搖撞騙對不對前面也不是我們也是要有證據啦讓外交部你們跟內政部現在有沒有商量要怎麼處理這個事有沒有現在具體進度在哪裡"},{"start":13595.134,"end":13620.036,"text":"他這樣等於是形同對其他國家對我們在駐台的大使造成的騷擾嘛對造成一些困境我們要怎麼處理要不要積極幫他們主張他們的權益一定要保護我們這個駐台的這個此節跟他們代表處或是這個的外交上面的權益要不要跟內政部長喊喊話這個是要嚴肅辦理他是去登記但是他的"},{"start":13621.337,"end":13649.849,"text":"辦理的業務或是行為有沒有違法這個是需要去查才能夠了解的我們也不能夠現在就去論斷你說不能夠現在論斷欸這個很清楚捏違反NGO的設立對不對宣稱自己是商務代表還協助辦了簽證結果是假的被正式的官方被打槍這就標準詐騙已經被認證了當然是違法行為嘛現在違法行為就是要具體的事證來加以這個所以部長你認為到現在這個是沒有具體的事證嗎"},{"start":13650.749,"end":13655.792,"text":"如果就媒體報導那個是有事證喔欸你們部裡面沒有處理過這個事嗎來那個應該是亞非斯吧對不對"},{"start":13659.861,"end":13660.241,"text":"我提醒外交部強度不夠"},{"start":13687.506,"end":13697.879,"text":"但是嚴重影響我們持續在跟內政部一直在溝通當中有可能會影響邦誼這是一件大事啊部長司長該強硬的就強硬這個嚴重影響我們的外交狀況因為請內政部嚴肅處理啊難道不應該嗎部長"},{"start":13700.405,"end":13727.471,"text":"對阿就是如果違反登記去執行不是屬於法定的業務阿這當然就要查辦明確了嘛要查辦對不對對早講就好只是因為後來他們去告嘛阿這個過程我剛剛講的就是有關於因為這些駐台的代表或者是他們辦事處的這些外交的權我們要去維護他那這個部分我們最後這個到最後一定是外交部跟內政部要跨部協商啦"},{"start":13727.731,"end":13728.652,"text":"外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況．"},{"start":13755.376,"end":13757.717,"text":"謝謝主席請我們的部長請您部長"},{"start":13784.514,"end":13785.955,"text":"請問是不是部長的好朋友?"},{"start":13809.431,"end":13810.051,"text":"國內的音樂家在國外演出的非常多"},{"start":13840.558,"end":13863.938,"text":"部長,我們其實很多過去的外交官尤其我們的駐外大使他不一定是外交本身出身但是呢起碼他也都在我們自己的政府內擔任過重要的職務不管是之前的謝長廷或者是林議員、童振元或莊碩翰等等"},{"start":13864.719,"end":13889.286,"text":"可是這位劉詠璇 因為事實上真的非常非常的陌生那她是音樂家 從來沒有過外交經驗 也沒有過政府單位的一個歷練只因為是部長的好朋友 所以今天我們的外交難道是龍有有外交嗎"},{"start":13889.966,"end":13917.192,"text":"不是啦這是文化外交他是在奧地利得到音樂博士的學位然後也很多國際演出跟合作嘛那我們要推動歐洲的文化外交那有一個來自於藝術界的音樂的這個專長的人我覺得大使事實上是政務官他是要通財啦我要告訴你啊其實在這個人是在你們外交系統引起了非常大的震撼"},{"start":13918.012,"end":13933.309,"text":"我們還是有很多優秀的外交官而且我們有很多外交官現在都超過6年欸一直想要外調或者是輪值通通都沒有辦法結果好不容易奧地利控出了一個新的代表"},{"start":13934.129,"end":13955.368,"text":"結果呢卻是由龍有有然後一個完全沒有外交經驗那我覺得我們現場這麼多的這個外交系統的有很豐富外交經歷請問一下他們情何以堪啊所以我就說這個是不會啊我們這個職業外交官我們也非常多都在重要的管處啊擔任大使跟代表"},{"start":13955.748,"end":13958.13,"text":"有很多在那邊苦撐待變苦撐待掉的你也能不能照顧一下"},{"start":13982.487,"end":13991.13,"text":"有要想調來跟我講啦你們想要在哪裡有目標對不對我一定幫你們看圓夢啦不能夠講這不矛盾的事啊也變成都沒有外交經驗只要你認識就好對不對我最近上任如果你去看看真的我們公務員很優秀的職業外交官幫我們很多的外交官要說一下話啦他們敢怒不敢言好請問一下"},{"start":14010.765,"end":14013.927,"text":"APEC領袖代表已經內定是原來的林信義副院長了嗎因為這個現在還在進行中"},{"start":14026.995,"end":14038.286,"text":"依照過去的例子會適當的時候來對外正式的公佈開記者會當然這個也是府方會正式公佈因為他是總統的代表"},{"start":14043.231,"end":14065.645,"text":"那因為時間也很緊迫了那外界也非常關心那麼因為本來是希望陳建仁副總統那被秘魯拒絕那我們當然還是希望就過去都是張忠謀先生但他已經高齡了嘛所以呢現在是不是由林信義前副院長來代表大概這個禮拜會公佈嗎"},{"start":14066.874,"end":14068.195,"text":"陳水扁總統馬英九總統還有蔡英文總統"},{"start":14096.394,"end":14120.666,"text":"其實在他首度就職我講的是首度就職其實也都蠻快的那個像陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統是在8月份他們就出訪然後呢蔡英文總統是6月份他就出訪但是現在都一直等不到我們的賴總統出訪也過了大概半年了大半年所以我們賴總統什麼時候可以出訪呢"},{"start":14122.312,"end":14124.355,"text":"等確定之後就會對外說明今年之內可不可能成行?"},{"start":14132.111,"end":14158.402,"text":"做幕僚的這個單位我們都要規劃各種的方案原首的外交包括總統的出訪我想那個適當的時機跟這個訪問的對象應該由總統府方面來說明因為按照過去的經驗說實在臺灣的這個外交環境事實上都一直很艱困的都一直很艱困你說中共打壓吧中共打壓是無所不在"},{"start":14159.742,"end":14160.022,"text":"信心喔?"},{"start":14182.523,"end":14184.344,"text":"因為美國總統大選馬上就要到了11月5號"},{"start":14201.272,"end":14212.63,"text":"那現在呢這兩位候選人呢非常膠著那這兩位候選人不管是哪一位當選其實對台灣事上都會有一定的衝擊這個衝擊不僅僅只是一個外交或國際情勢的衝擊"},{"start":14216.816,"end":14243.732,"text":"還有經貿上面的衝擊那我想請問外交部針對美國總統大選的結果我們有沒有做出一些因應的政策或者已經提出報告給總統也好或者給我們這個國安系統讓他們能夠掌握不管這兩位哪一位擔任總統對台灣的衝擊是什麼我們的因應措施是什麼準備好了嗎"},{"start":14244.847,"end":14247.19,"text":"美國總統大選出爐之後對台灣影響最大衝擊最大的是哪一方面?"},{"start":14261.794,"end":14287.79,"text":"對台灣的衝擊我想他們的外交政策特別是他們的印太戰略當然有分成安全的層面涉及到地緣政治也有一些屬於經濟方面的當然長期來講我們都是理念相近的民主國家這個我們很有信心部長另外請教一下在你們的方案中有沒有包括一個"},{"start":14288.71,"end":14316.578,"text":"在11月5號或者短期內美國總統大選沒有結果有沒有這個項目我想基於這個對未來趨勢跟可能的這個情境的這個研判我們是對各不同的選舉結果都有所準備跟因應最後就提醒我們部長跟外交部因為根據過去的經驗因為尤其他們這一次非常咬得很緊"},{"start":14317.998,"end":14337.163,"text":"所以有可能等到7月5號選完之後可能輸的那一方會要求驗票搞不好短時間內還沒有辦法正式出爐所以呢請外交為什麼特別來講其實我覺得對我們的經貿的部分其實影響是極大的不管在半導體部分"},{"start":14337.663,"end":14338.604,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員部長請回"},{"start":14366.977,"end":14369.641,"text":"接下來我們請賴世寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請外交部的林部長請林部長"},{"start":14394.043,"end":14411.113,"text":"委員好我們看喔川普最近說話了他大概因為跟哈里斯非常接近可能有焦慮但是無意中他也露出底牌了"},{"start":14412.318,"end":14417.167,"text":"而如果中國大陸入侵台灣課關稅150到200%課關稅那這個是不是已經"},{"start":14426.05,"end":14444.525,"text":"秀出底牌了他說不會出兵了你再進一步追問如果大陸打台灣不會出兵因為習近平尊重我他認識我你要不要對這個話回應一下說從原來川普在五月底的時候那時候是打這個牌也是為了勛軍他說如果大陸打台灣他要轟炸北京"},{"start":14455.282,"end":14455.382,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14473.309,"end":14486.512,"text":"這個對於美國在選舉期間的這個候選人的發言我們是都很密切關注但是我們也不予評論不過各種可能選後的發展我們也是做好因應的準備"},{"start":14488.148,"end":14488.548,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":14508.407,"end":14511.249,"text":"經濟制裁完全走向對烏克蘭的路對烏克蘭 俄羅斯他也不敢怎麼樣啊到目前為止也不敢去打俄羅斯只有一直給這個烏克蘭武器啦這個援助啦然後制裁俄羅斯一模一樣他現在對台灣的路川普現在對台灣的就是跟美國對烏克蘭幾乎如出一轍我這樣講對吧"},{"start":14536.161,"end":14544.425,"text":"其實美國的對中對台的政策有他的這個法律的依據或說長期的一個發展基礎烏克蘭更有烏克蘭說要給他加入NATO勒加入北約勒更有台灣還沒有一個tweet勒台灣有一個tweet一個NATO就可以鼓勵讓他加入北約"},{"start":14565.715,"end":14565.975,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14581.059,"end":14582.961,"text":"選舉期間的語言我們不予評論,但是我們會密切的關注,做好因應的準備。"},{"start":14604.342,"end":14615.206,"text":"這政見他對大陸要進入美國的item他要加到百分之六十如果打台灣要加到百分之一百五到兩百這個會兌現的喔部長這不是你說他在這個選舉議員這是政見啊不是選舉議員喔他是政見喔政見有可能變政策啊這是他政見喔這個不能這樣子小看他勒不能小看"},{"start":14633.493,"end":14636.254,"text":"其實你不能替川普回答這個問題因為他要保持一個他的模糊跟比較談判的籌碼"},{"start":14658.039,"end":14679.989,"text":"但是他也講過你剛剛委員講的包括轟炸北京阿所以我意思是說他們在選舉期間當然有基於他去訴求他的選民我們都要很關注而且要做好因應的準備但是我們不以過度去介入他們因為這些選舉的評論林部長你是不是比較喜歡聽到他轟炸北京的議論我沒有不以置評這個部分轟炸北京你們外送的是不是這樣"},{"start":14688.527,"end":14697.653,"text":"沒有感覺我就是先不以置評現在講一堆來我們看看蔡英文總統上任以後川普有打了電話跟他通了電話現在請問外交部有沒有準備說不管誰當選川普或者是哈里斯當選我們都想辦法給他跟我們的賴總統通電話有沒有"},{"start":14718.069,"end":14718.309,"text":"剛才有委員提到"},{"start":14747.942,"end":14773.913,"text":"這個其實其實其實蔡英文總統就任的時候巴拉馬總統瓦雷拉3月就喊邀了因為那時候已經知道起過了嘛巴拉圭總統叫卡里斯520免邀6月就出訪啦現在已經10月了快11月了結果賴總統什麼都沒有"},{"start":14780.418,"end":14792.804,"text":"這個會不會邀訪也是有啦我們當然我說有幫助我們的邀訪都是有的啊怎麼他沒有去過跟什麼時間適合會綜合去考量嘛你要不要講一下那幾個邀訪有就是了嘿在這裡要講啊你給我們振奮人心一下啊"},{"start":14805.182,"end":14805.882,"text":"每個國家有邀訪那是不是可以過進美國?這個比較重要啊"},{"start":14834.602,"end":14836.744,"text":"這個都還沒有決定還沒有決定啦所以你的意思等於這個決定了總統府方面會對外而說言外之意就是美國不答應賴清德過去美國的這樣不會啦啊不會為什麼不趕快公佈呢賺不人心一下適當時候就會公佈啦因為現在大家都認為是依賴論這個不用依賴美國依賴論喔不會啦沒什麼變化"},{"start":14862.148,"end":14862.468,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":14883.364,"end":14896.727,"text":"這個一個小問題啊我們講這個民主同盟民主同盟世界的什麼公開北京喔這個很模糊啊這個不像說比如說CPTPP比如說APEC這是國際組織我們跟美國關係這麼好哪一個國際組織美國幫助我們加入你告訴我"},{"start":14907.717,"end":14927.781,"text":"其實我們跟美國之間就有很多多邊的這些交流合作的架構啊架構不算啦 組織啊 正式的組織我們希望台灣人你任何做問卷台灣人最需要的就是說我們要有國際的空間因為我們實在太辛苦了老共不斷打壓 幾十年來都打壓不是只有今天才打壓 一直打壓我們當然沒有人疏忽 大家都不疏忽但是我們就要問你國際主義有哪一些美國幫助我們加入 有沒有"},{"start":14938.467,"end":14947.163,"text":"其實美國都有在幫我們這個不管是協助啦或者是說很多"},{"start":14948.63,"end":14953.053,"text":"這個我時間到了不願意比如說WHA也沒有啊CPTPP也沒有啊你講到現在講到這樣2758號也沒有去提案嘴巴講嘴巴講打嘴砲而已啊都沒有實質的其實我們感謝他們為台灣不管是發聲或者是說講給你聽有什麼用就國際組織又再組織沒有關係比如說WHA他提案啊他還沒有提案"},{"start":14978.171,"end":14988.68,"text":"他去提案 輸了 我們覺得感激 結果他不是啊 嘴巴講說 喔 支持喔 支持喔結果實際上都沒有幫忙啊 這個東西 人家覺得說我們買這麼多的一個武器 都天然攻擊的 我講真實組織 在外面講都不好啦 真實組織裡面講的才有用啦 APEC 到現在為止 美國沒有人幫我們啊 你剛剛講說可能離心力"},{"start":15003.531,"end":15019.042,"text":"為什麼沒辦法陳建仁?好歹當過副總統啊,這位階更高啊。老公打壓他,救他回去。APEC裡面美國可以講話啊,美國super power啊,實力比老公強太多了,為什麼美國APEC沒辦法幫我們?你回答一下,10秒鐘。"},{"start":15022.525,"end":15024.927,"text":"接下來我們請洪孟楷委員上台質詢"},{"start":15055.427,"end":15084.502,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請林佳龍部長請林部長好部長好委員好部長請就最近大家關心說有一個國際詐欺犯啊騙了10億元然後來到台灣5年了那後來被我們移民署已經就掌握然後現在要把他遣送結果沒想到遣送到了新加坡新加坡不收現在又退回來"},{"start":15085.882,"end":15108.257,"text":"那本席看到現在由外交部這邊來協助是要跟歐盟這邊來做一個聯繫溝通那因為我們說沒有辦法直接送回給西班牙讓他們去做一個相關的形式的一個處罰是因為我沒有直飛飛機啊那我想請教一下已經回來台灣一天多的時間目前外交部有怎麼樣的協助進展"},{"start":15110.941,"end":15122.588,"text":"現在內政部移民署他們有在處理當中所以會在就是已經有聯繫這個就是在聯繫誰"},{"start":15129.559,"end":15135.183,"text":"現在西班牙有跟歐盟的國家聯繫所以已經有洽談這個要遣送的國家他們之間會再進行因為這涉及到有一些引渡條約再來就是因為這是國際刑警組織發布的紅色通報所以我們都是支持配合他們這個遣返的"},{"start":15159.057,"end":15177.959,"text":"支持配合這沒有問題啊部長你是外交部部長我在外交國防委員會為什麼會點出這個問題當然這移民署相關但是我們看到報導講說外交部幫忙跟西班牙政府來協商嘛這應該是西班牙政府應該要管轄的嘛那個人逃來台灣五年在台灣吃香喝辣五年"},{"start":15178.72,"end":15207.868,"text":"大家沒有辦法接受嘛那現在他變人球說要送到新加坡結果新加坡又把他退回來我不知道說這到底是移民署沒有跟溝通好還是外交部沒有溝通好那不過被送回當人球是事實嘛我們看到新聞報導是昨天早上6點已經回到台灣但沒有辦法讓他入境所以他現在變成是三不管他有可能是在境外等於是海關這邊嘛那我們現在想要問的是什麼時候他可以接受法律的制裁"},{"start":15209.48,"end":15212.503,"text":"這個 因為已經有洽談好因為西班牙跟現在我們要這個他送的對象國家已經有洽談好了哪個國家"},{"start":15232.311,"end":15246.579,"text":"有確定了嗎因為這個是他們的我想涉及到一些這是機密嗎如果機密你可以不要講但我是說有確定了是不是有已經確定了是所以什麼時候這一個人可以送回應該就在辦禮裝嘛什麼時候啊"},{"start":15247.591,"end":15248.732,"text":"所以已經確認遣送第三國那國家是歐盟國家"},{"start":15278.089,"end":15284.795,"text":"就是西班牙已經有洽談好可以接受的國家已經洽談好所以短期之內就會有動作應該是"},{"start":15288.932,"end":15290.835,"text":"我們也希望不要有任何人把台灣當成是避風港"},{"start":15309.716,"end":15317.831,"text":"不要以為說台灣我們中華民國是畫外之地如果說該遣送就遣送要處理合理制裁但更重要的是這件事情如果沒有聯繫好的話會讓國人滑爛"},{"start":15320.751,"end":15349.793,"text":"所以我們這幾天很密切的在聯繫遣送的話是不是也發一個新聞稿讓大家知道是說我們讓他依法來去做後續的處理好我們盡速跟社會大眾報告再來部長請教南非住管限期被迫遷移的部分那我們也很重視啊我想我不容許我們也認為是說我們的感情也好我們的相關的一個法令也好怎麼會突然有任何國家要求我們的這個住管要遷移而且"},{"start":15350.593,"end":15374.389,"text":"滿不禮貌的說限期十月底要遷移啊早上你已經有回答過了但你說很多的應變小組也做了那現在應變小組除了我們這邊對於南非駐台灣的辦事處我們有沒有找南非駐台灣的代表來溝通有怎麼會有那麼粗暴的一個作為有我們有召見嘿然後他怎麼講"},{"start":15376.206,"end":15392.454,"text":"他怎麼講他就是有他們因為南非外交部啊就是透過一個電函那給我們住處那我們就是也針對這個我們也有富含南非政府就是表達我們的立場"},{"start":15393.454,"end":15415.41,"text":"也據理會力爭因為這是片面毀約違反我們1997年雙邊的簽署的協議架構是你親自召見駐台的南非代表嗎對那他怎麼說來我請我們不是他怎麼說你不是你親自召見為什麼你要請人家講你剛講你親自召見然後你要請別人回答是"},{"start":15421.994,"end":15446.25,"text":"有沒有召見阿來我們部長你這樣讓我懷疑你好像沒有召見耶好同仁跟委員報告部長是我召見的是我召見的因為那天部長正好另外有工忙所以事情一出來之後我立即就請南非住宅代表到我辦公室那部長下次國會殿堂有一說一你有時間很忙你也可以講時間很忙但是我們這共同關心來來這個是"},{"start":15449.411,"end":15453.634,"text":"政府政策為什麼會這樣做以前沒有現在突然間這樣做他的理由是什麼"},{"start":15470.54,"end":15485.821,"text":"那這是他作為前線的這個出外代表他是執行他政府的政策那我們當然也代表政府向他表達最強烈的抗議跟我們的不滿還有不能接受不能接受嘛國人沒有辦法接受喔來部長"},{"start":15487.847,"end":15516.475,"text":"部長沒有辦法接受那我有看到你說研議小組那研議小組現在是只有除了說比較具體的有可能要求駐台的南非辦事處遷離台北市對不對我們用一樣的動作反制當然有人就講是說到底這樣子會懲罰到誰但另外一個部分啊我們還有沒有更具體如果說10月底到了南非政府真的在他們的首都對於我們的外館"},{"start":15517.631,"end":15531.504,"text":"有很強硬的動作我們怎麼樣保護我們外管的同仁我們當然會以外管同仁的安全就是做最重要那在這個期間因為他"},{"start":15532.529,"end":15555.747,"text":"如果有違法的行動我們也會訴諸法律那這些強制的行為影響到我們住管人員的安全我們會以安全保護我們的住管人員如果11月1號我不知道南非政府怎麼做但如果11月1號真的有他們政府或相關人士我們的住管人員要去開門要去open9點鐘到了要營業"},{"start":15557.268,"end":15583.315,"text":"結果他們有人阻撓不讓我們開門怎麼辦這個情境我們都有做沙盤推演是啊那我們就是說因為那個產權是我們台灣的嘛中華民國的所以他任何的詳細行為都有違法我們當然會訴諸這個我們的就是我們的我們法律的保障那因為所以我們會提起國際仲裁"},{"start":15584.515,"end":15607.61,"text":"還是什麼樣的一個國際的法庭這個如果是屬於他違反他們自己國家的法律我們當然也會伸張我們的權益啊是現在我們但是同一陣線我沒有辦法允許任何國家即便我們剛剛沒有邦交但是突然間一紙公文要求說十月底搬離我拆違建也沒有拆成這樣子啊"},{"start":15608.65,"end":15628.923,"text":"更何況是在我們正式我們中華民國的一個辦事處那一樣嘛我現在講的是說後續如果說他真的那麼強硬的態度那我們有什麼國際上應有作為你剛剛也講了1997年他等於是片面毀約那如果片面毀約的話我們有什麼救濟管道國際仲裁有沒有"},{"start":15630.67,"end":15631.95,"text":"聯合國我們有沒有資格"},{"start":15660.429,"end":15675.738,"text":"我當然是鼓勵你要去把意見支持我們的意見多表達但重點在是我們還有什麼方法可以做我們有相應的反制的作為包括我們就是基於對等的原則我們也會就是要求"},{"start":15677.699,"end":15705.677,"text":"對我們的這個不公平的對待我們也會有一些因應的作為包括他們的這個就是台灣的這個住處我們會要求就是同樣的方式吧也要建立我們的首都啊你還是在繞圈圈部長我是希望你能夠印起來中華民國的尊嚴台灣2300萬人尊嚴最後一個請教啦我們現在非洲"},{"start":15706.698,"end":15731.09,"text":"有幾個邦交國一個哪一個斯瓦帝尼斯瓦帝尼他現在對於我們因為斯瓦帝尼相對來講跟南非關係好像也不錯對算是密切嘛因為他在他的南非裡面而且上個月該國國王也迎娶了南非前總統的女兒啊所以他們可能經濟政治等等都有相關的一些交流"},{"start":15732.447,"end":15733.588,"text":"施瓦帝尼的邦交穩定嗎?"},{"start":15740.523,"end":15742.285,"text":"部長最後一次跟我們斯瓦帝尼大使通電話或是瞭解相關的資訊是什麼時候"},{"start":15766.49,"end":15795.342,"text":"我因為電報非常的快速啦所以我們幾乎是每天啊都對這個情況都司法地理這個部分也是都保持聯繫都有掌握對好部長本席要提醒啊12個邦交國是我們現在中華民國還有的那本席真的不希望有任何的邦交國再有任何的一個鬆動所以也希望外交部要努力好那該掌握的情報要掌握是好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":15796.741,"end":15797.962,"text":"謝謝黃孟楷委員部長請回正正前正正前正正前委員不在羅志強羅志強羅志強委員不在接下來我們請陳培宇委員上台諮詢好謝謝主席有請部長請您部長"},{"start":15831.46,"end":15855.629,"text":"部長午安辛苦了部長我之前在6月的時候跟您討論過運動外交不知道部長有沒有印象不過很棒的是在上個禮拜總統府發布邀請了戴資穎還有劉伯鈞這兩位我們都非常熟悉的傑出運動人士擔任無人所大使那我想之後呢外交部在運動外交這個部分因為有這兩位大使的協助應該可以著力更深"},{"start":15856.289,"end":15868.317,"text":"那上個10月7號我看到部長您跟大使有參敘不知道參敘過程中你有沒有跟他們兩個稍微聊了一下那外交部接下來在運動外交有沒有什麼著力的方向"},{"start":15869.235,"end":15898.515,"text":"是,因為我們現在政府要成立運動部,我們外交部也同步,就是針對這個相關的運動外交在做一些規劃,包括我們對無人所大使的角色,我們也希望能夠透過他們跟國際來更多的交流合作,也會有一個無人所大使的一個聯繫的辦公室跟相關的行政協助,"},{"start":15900.236,"end":15909.643,"text":"這幾天舉行亞洲帕拉林匹克委員會,我們也全力支持,也有跟主辦單位表達希望能夠跟運動外交結合,包括無任所大使的角色"},{"start":15927.396,"end":15929.7,"text":"明年世界壯年運動會也是我們近期的一個重點"},{"start":15936.685,"end":15960.602,"text":"所以聽起來在部長您的規劃跟想像當中也許是您的幕僚給你的資料那我們來往下看我知道部長一定會提到運動部可是運動部說實話他們等到正式上路這中間有非常多的交接跟規劃這個混亂的階段那我會覺得如果這個時候外交部可以更加積極先走在運動部之前例如說我給部長一些例子其實從聯合國"},{"start":15962.344,"end":15972.376,"text":"從他們的角度來看運動外交是一個非常重要的工作例如說以美國來說國務院有運動外交部門日本有東京奧運東協十國計畫澳洲有運動外交2030英國也有2021到2031的運動策略計畫沙烏地阿拉伯的願景2030"},{"start":15981.186,"end":16005.774,"text":"這一系列的國家我相信跟台灣在運動外交上絕對有很多的角色跟工作可以開始交流跟進行所以這個部分我還是要積極來拜託外交部在這個部分要更加積極用這兩位無認所大使他們在運動上的專長跟他們在國際上被接受這個狀態讓外交部可以做更多事情我們來看下一頁我再一次跟部長分享以劉伯鈞為例"},{"start":16007.355,"end":16029.678,"text":"他用他自己的努力登上了聯合國還有富比士雜誌還有美國國務院的網站甚至他親身踏入聯合國演講部長我要拜託您的是其實台灣有沒有可能再找出第二個跟第三個劉伯鈞我自己說實話不是因為我們沒有人才而是國際的情勢會讓我們更加的困難這個部分部長你怎麼看"},{"start":16032.03,"end":16054.67,"text":"確實 其實運動外交 因為各國都有相對應的政策或機構 那我們會進行來對接 那找出合作的項目比如說以美國來講 他這個AIT 就很重視劉伯鈞的無人鎖大使那我想在台美之間很多的項目可以一起來推動他對美國國務院 也是他們有參加過他們的課程"},{"start":16056.272,"end":16062.103,"text":"更了解其實運動外交還有包括性別平等還有其他的一些運動員相關的權益的推廣這些也都是在運動外交的範圍"},{"start":16067.19,"end":16093.178,"text":"聽起來從上次六月跟部長對話到現在我發現部長對於運動外交的認識越來越多這個部分我聽得非常開心意思就是說我相信在部長您的領導之下一定台灣的運動外交可以做得更好除了博君是一個非常重要的例子但有沒有可能換位思考例如說博君就跟我們分享過其實我們自己也有能力去協助別的國家的女性運動或者是運動從業人員他們的價值可以被肯定讓這些"},{"start":16094.338,"end":16098.764,"text":"不同國家的朋友可以透過運動外交跟臺灣建立關係我們來看下一頁例如說之前盧伯鈞他們的臺灣運動好事協會他們跟孟加納女藍有做相關賠利計畫他們甚至還有木運動內衣捐贈到國外去"},{"start":16111.48,"end":16138.109,"text":"可是在中間因為他當時並沒有這個無任所大使的身份他在做這些事情上遇到非常多的困難包含簽證、跨國聯繫的工作但是我相信從博軍擔任無任所大使之後很多這些事情的聯繫是不是會更加的快速跟便利甚至可以讓他的影響力擴及到更多的國家跟更多不同運動種類項目的運動員有所交流這個部分我想要拜託部長給出承諾"},{"start":16138.869,"end":16167.104,"text":"對,以這個運動內衣的捐贈或是運動相關的這些﹖女力或是課程的賠利對,我們會來推動我講是說其實台灣在紡織業在機能性服裝上其實很多運動員都是穿我們台灣製的那這個方面也是我們的強項所以除了運動內衣之外有一些競賽及有一些他們的服裝或是設備其實這方面的推廣"},{"start":16168.104,"end":16194.581,"text":"也是運動外交的一部分我們的產業很強所以這方面我們會配合未來其實已經很多人都在捐贈像消防服裝我們也做跨國的很多交流合作特別新南向國家那這個運動外交其實是可以深入到尤其對一些女權比較需要因為女性在運動上面相對處於有時候會比較不利或被歧視的情形所以這個是我們可以切入的重點"},{"start":16194.841,"end":16221.127,"text":"其實部長剛剛講到不只是產業的問題或是性別的問題或者是兒少培力的問題其實都是無認所大使劉伯鈞他在過去沒有這個身份之前他就非常積極在從事的事情那我們來看下一頁其實我談這麼多的案例喔我先回到光是在巴黎奧運其實駐法外館的同仁全力支援巴黎奧運這件事情是不是也要拜託部長先公開的給予同仁相對的鼓勵"},{"start":16222.168,"end":16236.093,"text":"有,我其實那時候跟吳志忠還有代表還有後來郝培斯代表因為剛好在奧運跟帕運之間我們其實是密切的聯繫所以相關的包括他們的訓練中心還有相關的這些文化奧運"},{"start":16237.313,"end":16251.914,"text":"所以這個密切聯繫我們的外管在這一次扮演很重要的角色那下一次因為是在洛杉磯我們應該有更好的條件可以把目標再更提高"},{"start":16252.755,"end":16280.76,"text":"謝謝部長幫我把我想要講的話講出來如果我們在法國就已經有這麼好的成績那美國相對跟台灣是友善的國家有非常多的討論可以開始進行但是部長剛有提到運動部所以如果我們不要只等著運動部外交部是不是可以率先啟動相關的準備作業因為事實上雖然時間看起來是2028但其實我們所剩時間不多可不可以由外交部這邊更積極的發起所謂運動外交更多的想像跟政策開始推動"},{"start":16281.567,"end":16294.807,"text":"我們會跟現在其實教育部體育署也是有相關的業務那當然未來運動部現在已經都設立好明年要成立我們會就是同步來作業無縫接軌好同步作業所以這邊我們會積極跟外交部開會"},{"start":16297.284,"end":16318.415,"text":"有我有請我們同仁針對運動外交相關的人就是能夠組合起來大家來討論我們要推動的這個事項所以根據我們今天談的三個事情一個是我認為外交部必須要定期有專人主動跟無認所大使聯繫針對大使的工作目標提供相關業務的協助"},{"start":16319.696,"end":16337.955,"text":"就如同我說的他之前為了推動非常多運動的外交他在簽證或是跨國聯繫上其實受到非常多的阻礙這個部分部長是不是可以先公開承諾外交部可以定期專人主動跟這些無認所大使聯繫除了提供相對的行政事務辦公室的一個窗口之外這個部分會有困難嗎部長"},{"start":16339.778,"end":16364.712,"text":"我已經有跟劉伯鈞﹑吳任所大使有．伯鈞只是其中一個例子啦．其實每一位吳任所大使都有他們的專家然後戴志穎﹑吳任所大使我們也會來瞭解他的想要推動的重點好那這個部分我希望我們在一個月內有相關的規劃報告跟執行狀況第二個喔運動外交不能再只是依賴這些吳任所大使不要讓這些大使孤軍作戰我們希望外交部跟體育署就是未來的運動部要定期的工作匯報這個部分部長您覺得會有困難嗎"},{"start":16367.493,"end":16390.931,"text":"有關怎麼去進行我們會來進行委員提示的重點我們也會特別重視那最後一個就是2028洛杉磯奧運我相信我們在剛剛討論當中部長應該知道更多人對於運動外交的想像是他是一個柔性的他是一個軟性的他可以有更多的面向可以一起進行那這邊也要拜託外交部積極努力"},{"start":16392.717,"end":16393.137,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台諮詢"},{"start":16424.625,"end":16425.487,"text":"謝謝主席﹖有請部長請林部長"},{"start":16437.689,"end":16460.537,"text":"部長好委員好南非對於我們國家這種粗暴的要求全體國人都應該站在政府背後做外交部最強的後盾我覺得對外我們的立場要一致對內大家不同看法沒關係對外立場一定要一致這個是我向來的原則"},{"start":16461.937,"end":16490.436,"text":"那在這個原則下今天的主題正是以前有幾個問題請教一下部長就是我們是什麼時候接到南非這個無理的要求那去年12月的時候他們有口頭表達那今年4月的時候呢就有跟我們就是提出要限期半年內要頒這個簽的管處那過去半年我們做了什麼"},{"start":16491.55,"end":16517.637,"text":"我們透過各種的溝通包括因為南非剛好有總統跟國會的大選所以我們跟各黨派其實都有聯繫希望說大選之後有所調整另外跟美日還有這些有理念相近國家其實是有很頻繁的在討論他們也替我們去盡洽南非的政府甚至在一些國際場合"},{"start":16519.077,"end":16532.602,"text":"相當誠實的這個外交部的代表有向南非來表達關切這個過程的還原我覺得蠻重要的"},{"start":16534.503,"end":16554.029,"text":"我看不管是媒體還是或者是有一些委員質詢所以我們突然收到這樣的通知那因為跟我看南非那邊的外電寫的不太一樣所以我第一個先把事實的情況先還原他就是10月7號啊我想他在我們國慶酒會的時候特別又發了一個電海是是是那因為"},{"start":16555.319,"end":16580.665,"text":"南非那邊他們的官員是講說他們已經給台灣充足的時間做準備了那我看到這個外電的時候我看了有點驚訝因為跟我跟在台灣的媒體看的不太一樣所以事實第一個先釐清那第二個我們現在在南非那一邊的辦事處那個所有權是我們的嗎是所以依照南非的法律他有權利要求我們搬走嗎"},{"start":16582.048,"end":16606.31,"text":"就是這個產權是我們他沒辦法進行幫我們就是改變的第一個是所有權沒有辦法移轉我們有1997年的雙邊的協議部長不好意思就是我們問答就請針對問題回答你之前回答過其他委員那些講過的話就不要再講了我的問題很具體南非辦事處的產權是我們的嗎對"},{"start":16608.737,"end":16636.032,"text":"那第二個他也沒辦法逼我們賣掉嗎他可以逼我們賣掉嗎沒有辦法吧那第三個依照目前南非的法律跟相關的國際條約他有可能強制要我們搬走嗎如果以合法的手段他除非有什麼樣的法律依據嘛不然的話他不能夠違法我先提醒部長一件事齁就是"},{"start":16637.236,"end":16664.751,"text":"我們要在外交上面作戰很辛苦那但是你既然要作戰你也談到法律手段就把相關的法令請研究清楚這樣模擬兩可啊沒有辦法對外作戰的啦對我跟委員報告其實法律方面的權益我們就是也都研究過就是透過訴訟如果他對我們有一些強制行為是無法我先提一下所以除非"},{"start":16667.076,"end":16667.816,"text":"這位有請同仁再研究研究的結論是什麼"},{"start":16694.301,"end":16718.616,"text":"呃...就是...呃...我們待會有個期間啦因為這個還是要按照我們的法律我們是法治國家嘛那他如果說他自己...這不要一直抽象講依照我們的法律我...我在把問題講得很清楚他的辦事處在台北是租的嘛對他有個房東嘛是在他租約沒有終止以前依照我們國家的法律我們外交部可不可以逼他搬離台北市到新北市去"},{"start":16720.529,"end":16741.26,"text":"我們是可以去就是跟他的這個簽約的對象應該契約裡面都有說明如果有一些情形是可以終止契約所以剛剛你所講的是按照契約條款我們可以要求那個房東跟他終止契約另外我們可以要求他先停止運作嘛因為這個是在我們這麼嚴重喔要求他停止運作這個在你的報復的手段之一就對了對好"},{"start":16750.556,"end":16774.378,"text":"我希望我做這些問題我只希望部長要想清楚我們國人一定做外交部的後盾但不管是對外的法律戰或者是對內台灣是一個法治國家我們總不可能像2017年奈及利亞要我們遷離的時候派25個武裝警察強迫我們搬走嘛台灣不可能幹這種事嘛"},{"start":16775.916,"end":16798.266,"text":"台灣不會幹這種事情的情﹖因為我相信2017年的經驗啦外交部的同仁應該都很熟啦我們台灣不會幹這種事嘛所以對內的法律戰我也請部長先準備好因為不管是外交法律我們台灣是民主法治的國家我們一切依法來做我們要以理服人不是以利服人"},{"start":16798.806,"end":16799.606,"text":"中美洲銀行是一個獨裁者的金庫"},{"start":16819.98,"end":16832.909,"text":"那個錢不可以拿去胡搞瞎搞啊那中美洲銀行怎麼胡搞瞎搞為什麼我會關心因為關台灣的事嘛我們是第一大股東欸佔有的持股超過11%欸第一大股東欸所以那個時候即使是美國的CSIS"},{"start":16843.51,"end":16869.044,"text":"都希望臺灣這邊要注意不要讓卡貝胡搞瞎搞成為獨裁者的金庫要不然我們臺灣我們在號稱我們要用民主法治跟人權民主同盟用價值在國際社會行走所以我們既然如果去資助一個獨裁者的金庫這對於臺灣的國際形象傷害太大了部長同不同意同意好我們繼續往下看"},{"start":16871.294,"end":16899.889,"text":"台灣對於中美洲銀行我必須要老實講作為一位台灣人我們真的是盡心盡力沒有虧待中美洲的那些友邦我們一開始加入中美洲銀行就是為了什麼就是為了要穩定我們在中美洲的邦交所以你看一開始的創始會員國區域內的創始會員國本來都跟我們有邦交的結果搞到現在只剩兩個"},{"start":16901.375,"end":16925.827,"text":"有5個在蔡政府的時期的時候斷交哥斯大黎加斯2007年的時候就斷交那當然這個背後都有老共的影子我們大家都心知肚明但在國際上面啊 行走的時候台灣人對於中美洲那邊需要的協助我們是出錢出力啊從來沒有缺席過但是過去這幾年"},{"start":16928.066,"end":16954.767,"text":"我們一路上面看下來變成是什麼我們一開始在中美洲銀行投資那麼多是因為裡面都是我們的邦交國嘛結果搞到現在斷交剩下兩個一個貝里斯一個瓜地拉馬然後再來這個是我們在中美洲銀行股款的繳納台灣啊來我直接看啊排名啊是第一名"},{"start":16955.595,"end":16981.436,"text":"到最近第8次增資的時候國際社會已經在質疑中美中銀行在幹什麼成為獨裁者的金庫第8次增資的時候有很多其他區域外的會員國大家對於要再拿錢出來是充滿了猶豫我們應該再往錢往裡面砸嗎砸進去了以後錢跑到哪裡去真的跑去幫助人民嗎"},{"start":16982.659,"end":17006.201,"text":"跑去幫助學童嗎?跑去幫助婦女嗎?還是跑到了貪污者、獨裁者的口袋裡面去所以第8次爭執的時候我老實講在立法院那個時候我們到底要不要參加這件事情有少數瞭解情況關心的委員開始在質詢的時候大家是很在乎在面對國際社會的時候"},{"start":17009.212,"end":17026.387,"text":"蔡英文前總統說不會跟中國進行無意義的金錢外交競逐部長同不同意同意啊也同意嘛這個也是你說的嘛是好我最後一個問題中美洲銀行那邊我們會不會幫其他的國家繳股款其他的國家繳股款第8次增資的股款會還是不會"},{"start":17034.807,"end":17054.877,"text":"同仁我沒有這個規劃嘛我只要你一句話就好因為我接到檢舉我接到檢舉說台灣有可能會幫其他國家繳股款我只要確認這件事情我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款會還是不會剛剛同仁講他們並沒有這樣的計畫確定沒有"},{"start":17060.851,"end":17082.123,"text":"我只要你一句話有還是沒有會還是不會來你來說明一下是報委員增資的部分我們不會協助任何國家來繳股款確定絕對不會拿台灣納稅的錢幫其他國家搞繳股款這個是確定的事情了是嗎我是講第8次增資的部分我們不會繳股款那未來呢"},{"start":17084.246,"end":17098.734,"text":"那個我跟委員說明一下其實我們現在想要除了加強監督還有你提到的這個對啦這個我都知道要加強監督理事在裡面有積極的調整但請回答我一個關鍵的問題在國會裡面把話說清楚我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款我只問這件事"},{"start":17105.658,"end":17107.8,"text":"會還是不會?你們今天在國會裡面講話就要負責了,會還是不會?奇怪了,你們的問題怎麼反覆來?剛剛部長說不會,你現在又說考慮?"},{"start":17135.798,"end":17135.939,"text":"要花多少錢?"},{"start":17151.544,"end":17176.316,"text":"我還沒有看到這方面的規劃的報告我只講一件事繼續投錢下去甚至是幫其他的國家繳錢拿台灣納稅的錢去繳丟到裡面去我希望外交部要慎重從這家銀行過去怎麼對待台灣發展到今天的歷史"},{"start":17177.296,"end":17184.793,"text":"我們繼續投錢下去還不夠 如果還要拿台灣納稅人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款我希望外交部啊 要慎重考慮"},{"start":17186.058,"end":17210.876,"text":"是 我跟委員也說明一下我們是不是可以從另外一個角度我們怎麼樣去積極影響中美洲銀行可以來發揮我們榮邦計畫那因為現在相對比較單純嘛因為現在就是我們現在瓜地馬拉跟加勒比海兩個邦交國那是不是在加勒比海或者是其他地方我們也可以擴大我有請同仁去研究可是您剛剛提到的所謂的代為繳款這個還沒有報告"},{"start":17213.118,"end":17234.825,"text":"我直接跟部長講你講那個你真的好好地去研究一下中美洲銀行我們在裡面一席常駐理事你講到好像我們現在已經變成理事主席可以主導中美洲銀行今天台灣如果在裡面是理事主席可以主導整個中美洲銀行要丟錢下去我一定贊成但是台灣過去這幾年被人家當什麼被人家當盤子"},{"start":17241.998,"end":17242.458,"text":"接下來我們請吳立華委員上台質詢"},{"start":17276.913,"end":17280.096,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 請您部長部長辛苦了謝謝委員我在這邊想要提供一些多元的聲音關於我們原住民外交的部分今年5月我不知道你知不知道這個新聞"},{"start":17302.995,"end":17321.946,"text":"中央大學的集地研究中心他們帶了第一批我先講是第一批但是呢有170種的台灣的小米種源帶到挪威去保存在他們的種子庫你知道這個消息嗎"},{"start":17323.274,"end":17349.569,"text":"報告委員知道因為這裡面有一個光和基金會是我創立的謝謝有支持這個計劃而且外交部有沒有支持外交部也有啊很好那你應該很清楚這個對國際來講對我們的整個氣候變遷來講對整個全球農業永續發展來講有沒有重大貢獻有但是你有沒有覺得像這樣子的新聞很小很小"},{"start":17351.502,"end":17368.58,"text":"是很可惜啊很可惜吧因為每一次我看都只有在圓明台出現我發現一般的媒體不會報導但是這是很重要的貢獻很重要的外交對不對對那外交部未來要不要在這個地方多著力一點"},{"start":17371.315,"end":17393.943,"text":"讓國際看見好不好要不然你們老是被罵其實我覺得很多的好事外交都是做在原住民身上可是沒有媒體會報導我再舉個例子今年也是一樣四年一度的太平洋藝術節這個也是很重要我們能夠以非正式會員身份參與容不容易"},{"start":17395.294,"end":17422.456,"text":"這很不容易而且這個影片從頭到尾我都有看很感動而且我們是用中華民國的國旗放在他們的官網這個是用原住民的身份參與所以部長您覺得我們看一下參與的這一些成員是誰太平洋島國論壇的成員重不重要很重要是不是突破外交"},{"start":17423.959,"end":17446.413,"text":"對而且他們是美中在拉鋸的太平洋區域的這一些國家對不對對那台灣能夠出席能夠出現是不是也是重要貢獻對不好意思我只有在原民台看到只是因為這個人他講的話太精彩很多人是透過影片臉書轉傳分享"},{"start":17449.025,"end":17469.787,"text":"但是一樣我都覺得能見度好低所以外交部未來在這方面能不能夠做出什麼樣的協助我跟委員報告其實我有發現因為這個在業務上因為我們的原民會他也辦了很多國際交流但是我怎麼跟外交來連結是我今天要談的就是這一點"},{"start":17473.348,"end":17487.412,"text":"總和外交就是原住民外交就是最好其實不只太平洋國家其實進步的這些民主自由人權重視的國家都對原住民主很重視像是加拿大他們都還有經濟社會平權"},{"start":17489.153,"end":17489.633,"text":"我再舉一個馬上就要發聲的"},{"start":17515.364,"end":17534.536,"text":"2025明年很重要的在日本第三度舉辦的世界博覽會在大阪我上次也有請經濟部國貿的到我辦公室因為我想了解這麼重要的一個平台到底有沒有原住民的元素我跟部長說還好我有問捏沒有捏"},{"start":17537.281,"end":17546.449,"text":"那我都不知道了沒有原住民我們到世界要給人家看什麼啊要跟人家交什麼朋友是吧那外交部要不要幫忙"},{"start":17547.458,"end":17548.979,"text":"我要講這件事情就是說很可惜 原民會沒有那麼大的能量啊"},{"start":17577.113,"end":17604.714,"text":"以這個明年的大阪市博來講他的主責是在經濟部耶發包出去耶但是文化部就會因此覺得沒我的事可能外交部也會覺得沒我的事因為呢錢不是在原民會原民會也沒有辦法發聲這是不是很可惜明明可以好好做的一個外交的展示就因為部會的本位主義就這麼可惜沒有能見度是吧"},{"start":17605.47,"end":17613.038,"text":"因為其實在大阪因為臺灣人去日本觀光旅遊很多所以這個是一個很重要可以呈現臺灣國力的一個機會那部長我就是講這個9月底你看我們的帛琉他們30週年的建國"},{"start":17625.17,"end":17644.703,"text":"賴總統特別請原民會的主委率團出訪,擔任特使。原民會也邀請了原住民各鄉鎮長,一同的去那個地方觀摩、考察、交流,參與他們的建國30周年。這時候我也很想問,外交部到底有沒有配合?"},{"start":17646.648,"end":17669.45,"text":"這是我們外交部推薦請人民會主委做特使我覺得很可惜力道不夠總而言之我要表達我希望外交部未來在這種參訪的事務都能夠大大的協助因為大家都在幫忙做外交我希望外交部更多的力量至少對這個帛琉"},{"start":17670.391,"end":17697.866,"text":"這位惠恕仁總統2021年他剛上任講了一句我好感動的話他直接對我們的蔡英文總統說我們的根在台灣帛琉的根在台灣你看這樣的情誼如果我們好好的跟他們交流用這樣的一個民族血緣的方式交流豈會被那些金錢外交的國家破壞呢是吧所以我希望外交部幫一個忙"},{"start":17698.823,"end":17724.361,"text":"我希望在過去我們的南島民族論壇也好或者是很重要的2013年的台紐經貿協定2022年的這個IPECA我們台灣也跟紐加澳洲同為創始國除此以外我要在這個地方跟部長能夠拜託一下我們來辦一個南太平洋的運動會可以嗎"},{"start":17726.326,"end":17727.287,"text":"這個絕對比南太平洋藝術節還要轟動國際"},{"start":17756.107,"end":17757.148,"text":"外交人才培育"},{"start":17774.328,"end":17796.962,"text":"真正人才外交我們原住民太多太多這樣的一個有天份的年輕人我希望外交部我還是要再次問要有具體的措施去培育原住民族的外交人才這也是總統的政見那我下一次就想要來問問看我們到底有沒有具體的措施可以嗎部長"},{"start":17797.93,"end":17806.858,"text":"好,請同仁記住喔,這個委員會再問的喔是,是,好,謝謝部長喔,您辛苦了,謝謝主席好,謝謝委員謝謝吳立華委員,部長請回"},{"start":17814.434,"end":17843.049,"text":"已登記質詢委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有羅志強委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報請相關機構以書面以兩週內答覆委員口頭上的質詢未及答覆的或要求補充資料亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供本日會議到此結束散會"},{"start":17847.264,"end":17847.424,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"155795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0d5303bfdb565692dd42df3203622d4e350be7fc235aa9711e5caf0930cab58e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:22:19 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謝謝"},{"start":15.263,"end":38.681,"text":"我們今天要討論的是我們的財政發分法剛才我們的召委講說民進黨怎麼一直在處理那個114年的事情總預算怎麼不我們在財化法事實上是115年才會成行明天的事情不解決先去解決後天的事情也讓人家覺得很納悶啦那中央的補助款除了一般性的補助通常過去也會透過我們的"},{"start":39.862,"end":55.599,"text":"前瞻計劃跟特別預算來協助地方發展拉近城鄉差距根據我手邊的資料財政部的資料可以看到除了通酬分配款另外會搭配一般性跟計劃型的補助來益助地方的財源"},{"start":56.949,"end":86.129,"text":"近年役注的財源從103年的5486億元那逐年成長到114年的1兆151億元所以可供地方來編列預算跟依需求來規劃運用簡單的說也就中央想盡各種辦法把財源送到地方可是要合情合理啊符合應該要遵守的我們的財政紀律剛范雲委員說相信各地方政府首長嗎?"},{"start":89.33,"end":115.086,"text":"各縣市政府首長有受觀念是南圓賠側以桃園市為例民進黨執政的時候我們的考量老人年金2500元所以在老人成長人口從14億一路會到30億所以增加了排富條款降到2000元那將更多的財那個"},{"start":115.886,"end":128.694,"text":"資源益助在年輕家庭跟新生兒的照顧上可是我們的張市長上任之後老人年金馬上還是回到2500還把我們的刪除排付條款的規定所以財政負擔一下成長了27.1億元"},{"start":133.14,"end":147.111,"text":"目前我們很多縣市都在履行選舉的一個承諾所以就會增加了就像剛剛范雲委員講的非法定的社會預算那用桃園為例非法定的社會預算從2022年的59億已經成長到2023年的87億成長了28億增加了28億我同意應該把"},{"start":158.92,"end":182.089,"text":"把這些給予民眾更多的社會福利但是依據以及跟欠缺通盤長期考量的社會福利只是為了選舉開對線你的支票的時候反而會壓縮下一代的權益我們年輕家庭現在已經是少子化的時候是每一個需要他來努力我們的下一代的時候結果呢反而是沒有那舉例來說桃園也曾發生過"},{"start":185.49,"end":185.75,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":204.463,"end":221.774,"text":"跟中央殺雞取卵因為中央預算合理分配主要是協助地方縮小城鄉差距那人口比較少的城市仍然可以享有跟全國同樣的福利跟建設所以如果用人口來計算的話比率過高那就變相"},{"start":222.654,"end":245.533,"text":"鼓勵國人還是往人口稠密的地方靠近這個我們必須神聖考量第二個分配額度如果過大的話沒有謹守財政紀律的誘因簡單來說錢太多會亂花就像我剛剛講的桃園若地方可支配的財源的話增加我們濫發非法定福利預算的話沒有設定牌付條款的話那憑著感覺"},{"start":248.435,"end":260.9,"text":"選票考量這勢必會壓縮到下一代所以希望大家能夠理性並以國家整體為考量來一起來討論我們的財法法然後我們該如何調整才不會造成大者恆大"},{"start":263.041,"end":281.096,"text":"主席我講完了我也希望主席不要主觀詮釋我剛才講的或加以評論因為我看起來我們前面好幾個委員你都會加以評論主席不是應該是客觀的立場嗎我沒有要你回應所以你也不應該有多說你自己的主觀評論謝謝"},{"start":283.199,"end":291.912,"text":"謝謝我們林業勤委員主席是要保持意識中立不是表示主席不能有自己的意見我不是AI機器人來好謝謝林委員的會議詢問雖然"}]}},{"id":"155791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0567e89e92d2214d6f6b87f55f737407150be7fc235aa97119afa05eb447b671b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:17:17 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嚇了一大跳司法法制委員會我是要跟你們開會很煩的你知道嗎因為我們司法法制委員會數值真的沒有很高"},{"start":44.463,"end":60.836,"text":"然後提了一大堆非常爭議的一些法案出來我為什麼去講說我們司法法制委員會尤其是我們立法院國民黨的朋友其實可以仔細去迴響一下我為什麼說我們這個是過河拆橋呢你去把它看看1999年我們大法官會議做成的4至261號解釋正式的去宣告萬年國會之權侵蝕只能到1991年也就是說"},{"start":73.413,"end":97.539,"text":"今天立法院的職權的一個確立是因為1999年做出來的4-261號到了1997年第四次修憲的時候又碰到問題了那當年是李登輝老總統在台灣首度總統職選中他獲勝搭檔的是連戰副總統那後來變成說副總統到底可不可以兼任行政院長"},{"start":98.919,"end":101.762,"text":"一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":119.019,"end":122.866,"text":"哪怕當年是國民黨一黨專政威權的一個統治大法官會議當初做出這樣的一個解釋以後整個國家"},{"start":131.786,"end":157.003,"text":"大步向前邁進了那個時候我相信也沒有人會去講說大法官你是神喔大法官你毀憲你亂證喔我相信當初也沒有這樣子各位再去把它想想看在第五次修憲的時候啊第五次修憲的時候為什麼因為1號大法官會議解釋出來以後呢就把你宣告整個第五次的一個修憲全部無效"},{"start":158.356,"end":175.469,"text":"那如果以現金來看的話那你國民黨一定講說這個大法官無法無天啊這個就是整個台灣憲政的一個整個的一個發展啊所以呢呃國民黨的朋友跟民眾黨的朋友其實總預算啊本來這一個會期是要審總預算啊那總預算現在也沒有辦法順利排進去啊我們時間其實是多得很啊實在是多得很啊"},{"start":184.395,"end":190.559,"text":"我記得國民黨的朋友最喜歡講說要公聽要公聽要尋求社會的一個共識那這樣的一個法案我老實講"},{"start":195.48,"end":211.391,"text":"今天提出這整個憲法這三個憲法訴訟法的一個三個條文裡面啊涉及到整個對重大制度的一個變革啊我誠心的建議啊這如果主席你是來教你講你自己來採視下去啊我們應該比較深重的來講聽話讓社會這樣可以更大的一個共識這個我相信這個才是才是一個"},{"start":221.778,"end":235.611,"text":"根本否則你今天看看從憲法訴訟法第四條大法官緣合的一個大法官的一個總額還有30條跟43條的雙三分之二甚至於95條的修正日期這個以現在來看的話"},{"start":238.172,"end":255.682,"text":"衝突到底會不會大當然非常大翁曉玲委員這樣的一個提案你說他完全沒有道理嗎倒也不是倒也不是完全沒有道理可是你這個產生的衝擊這麼大的時候你有沒有配套我每次看到國民黨在試圖啊"},{"start":256.983,"end":261.385,"text":"國民黨的這個稍微起來一個氣勢啊常常就因為你去選擇跟大法官會議這樣對幹現在選擇跟憲法法庭這樣一個對幹國民黨會距離人民會越來越遠喔這個國家真的是大家一起的喔我最後要講的就是說你試著去把它想想看到去年之前"},{"start":287.056,"end":312.715,"text":"現任和憲政機關所提出的事件案都是個位數一年大法官會議裡面在憲法法庭裡面接受人民的私信申請權力的一個救濟都是上千件那結果你只因為一個單一的個案或者說因為整個死刑要不要存費你就認為你這個大法官全部好像是執政黨的打手要把這個制度給癱瘓掉"},{"start":314.33,"end":316.38,"text":"先聽聽外界的意見啦好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"155777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f065691288b7423ffbd42df3203622d4e33d41a36ebdecff134880165fef5440885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:37:30 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Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T09:17:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T09:24:59+08:00","duration":448,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.39721875,"end":75.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.93471875,"end":88.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.77659375,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.38909375,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.48846875000001,"end":288.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.71159375,"end":289.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.36534375,"end":291.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.60971875,"end":294.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.27596875,"end":304.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.20409375,"end":296.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.74409375000005,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.25346875,"end":351.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.34346875,"end":322.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.04596875000004,"end":337.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.02471875000003,"end":337.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.31159375000004,"end":337.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.40221875000003,"end":353.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.51159375000003,"end":356.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.27096875,"end":389.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.40471875000003,"end":393.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.48846875000004,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.08284375000005,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.77034375000005,"end":400.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.37346875000003,"end":401.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.47846875000005,"end":404.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.60471875,"end":406.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.08971875000003,"end":408.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.81534375,"end":409.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.77721875000003,"end":409.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.26659375,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.51971875000004,"end":409.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.85721875,"end":410.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.05971875,"end":410.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.71784375000004,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.97096875000005,"end":419.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.46034375000005,"end":411.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.89909375,"end":412.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.55721875,"end":412.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.91159375,"end":413.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.11409375000005,"end":413.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.19846875,"end":413.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.05846875000003,"end":418.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.56471875000005,"end":418.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.03721875,"end":419.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.84721875,"end":419.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.37034375,"end":420.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.38721875000005,"end":420.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.38721875000005,"end":423.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.40409375,"end":420.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.48846875000004,"end":420.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.97784375000003,"end":422.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.02409375,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.96909375,"end":425.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.30221875,"end":424.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.44971875000005,"end":429.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.51721875000004,"end":427.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.98096875000005,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.03159375,"end":428.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.08221875000004,"end":428.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.18346875000003,"end":428.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.33534375000005,"end":428.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.55471875,"end":428.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.807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蔡委員如果你要繼續發言還是我們等一下再開放第二輪好不好我們要廣泛討論也有十幾分鐘你已經講了6分鐘了我們尊重一下後面委員的權利那個已經在按第三次了那個已經是按第三次了你已經3加1加1了"},{"start":404.184,"end":431.318,"text":"財政紀律廣泛討論、廣泛發言。今天不要除條,你不用擔心啦,不除條啦。我可以不要除條嗎?可以的,可以的,可以的。每個人都還會有對財政紀律、財政收支劃分的。蔡委員,你尊重一下後面委員的發言,對不對?每一位都有發言的機會。3分鐘,你去講個30分鐘的。尊重一下我。"},{"start":434.221,"end":445.855,"text":"我還要自發言可以再來登記可以繼續發言讓大家暢所欲言不用擔心廣泛討論還有等一下可以可以繼續登記可以喔"}]}},{"id":"155769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f01ca46143f2bbd81af6b87f55f73740713d41a36ebdecff13eebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:14:37 - 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申請釋憲大法官又把我們的法案又做成暫時處分然後現在預計 過了兩個月 但預計這個星期五應該是會做宣判"},{"start":46.735,"end":70.187,"text":"我們通過的NCC組織法通過的這個禁法補償條例原住民的禁法補償條例法律都通過了行政院還可以不依法編列預算他們現在還要再申請釋憲到底是誰在癱瘓民主法制賴清德總統提了一群不適任不適格的大法官名單"},{"start":72.025,"end":79.511,"text":"到底是誰在癱瘓憲法法庭不是立法院今天我們提出的要將憲法訴訟法大法官現有總額明定就是憲法這修條文裡面所講的大法官15人這有什麼不對"},{"start":100.471,"end":114.178,"text":"從過去的法制史嚴格來看就是這樣啊就是15個人啊只是說以前的大法官們憲法法庭他們有良心他們有專業道德良知知道說不可能少數人就開會但是現在這批大法官不一樣啊"},{"start":115.831,"end":135.703,"text":"大法官缺額7個人根本連過半數甚至剩下8個人的大法官就可以開會就可以做成影響人民重要權利的憲法判決甚至推翻我們立法院人民意志所通過的法律這樣是正確的嗎韓國日本法國"},{"start":142.526,"end":157.528,"text":"等等這些憲法法院機構他們都有明定最低的開會的法定出席人數我們現在台灣沒有這樣子的一個明定最低的開會的出席人數所以以至於在"},{"start":159.196,"end":160.078,"text":"一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）"},{"start":174.62,"end":197.407,"text":"大家不要忘記了我們現在中華民國我們還有這個三四十條都是跟死刑有關的條文大法官這次只做了四四個條文是宣告死刑而是有條件合憲的但是已經造成實質廢死的效果接下來難保不會大法官再挺身而出再做出死刑是違憲的判決"},{"start":198.837,"end":214.601,"text":"更何況現在的大法官他不是積極的會去幫人民去處理人民的申請釋憲案他優先處理的是什麼優先處理就是民進黨政府不滿意立法院所通過的法律預算案就紛紛的提起釋憲我們怎麼能夠容許這樣的一群大法官他沒有民主正當性"},{"start":224.076,"end":224.876,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"}]}},{"id":"155770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0b8b7ddb0b207bfcff6b87f55f73740713d41a36ebdecff13e00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:19:46 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賴朝偉跟陳朝偉我是在跟你們對話拜託你們說聽話要開啥啦要把地方制度法跟財劃法的大方向拿出來一起談不要光只有談財政收支劃分法"},{"start":141.891,"end":157.524,"text":"財政收支劃分法大家都知道涉及到垂直分配跟水平分配其實我們政府因為這兩年我們的財政收入都遠大於預算數所以到了年底的時候每一個地方政府都分配到很多的多一筆的這個"},{"start":159.615,"end":166.199,"text":"統籌分配稅款因我的了解很多的縣市如果照目前的制度他要辦的事情現在錢都夠了他不但沒有負債還還了不少錢這是事實的狀況我們可以查證那如果在這種狀況之下"},{"start":175.023,"end":195.91,"text":"你還要一口氣丟那麼多錢給他的時候他要如何消化所以我覺得這件事情我在這裡再提出我陳志的建議我希望陳昭偉跟賴昭偉你們除了財政收支劃分法要跟地方制度法一起並一起談談個大方向如何全、事權如何分配這樣子問題才有辦法全面謝謝"},{"start":198.502,"end":210.196,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛他說到這個地方支付法我們今天有出席的這個列席的這個面證部民政室專門委員有聽到回去要請面證部趕快提出相關的地方支付法的修正"}]}},{"id":"155774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0f3b64148514e296af6b87f55f73740713d41a36ebdecff13d5bbd21d65eb54615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:33:52 - 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},{"start":151.718,"end":176.026,"text":"但無視要來了 我跟你講數學不好 我幫你算數學啦很簡單 只要民進黨現在才叫癱瘓整個中華民國啊各位你知道嗎 今天如果沒有翁曉玲出來修法 你知道今天是什麼局面嗎民進黨就是搞一個七個廢死大法官 六個七個大法官提名 六個廢死然後就讓你在野黨沒辦法通過嘛 因為八成民意反廢死嘛 他故意的啊"},{"start":176.906,"end":196.638,"text":"那接下來八個名額我跟各位講照明記者現在捍衛這版本會產生什麼情況八個人三分之二出席叫六個出席然後照現在八個人過半五個人就可以決定這個所謂任何的這個國家憲法的決定你以為五個人而已啊按照憲法訴訟法按照規定"},{"start":201.98,"end":205.724,"text":"一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．羅智強一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案。．羅智強"},{"start":219.909,"end":220.129,"text":"．羅智強．羅智強．羅智強．"},{"start":238.993,"end":262.233,"text":"我剛說你一大五個人可以決定的時候 這個法制大漏洞誰補就是誰補所以今天我有曉玲其實是為了捍衛大法官的尊嚴為了捍衛我們憲政體系的尊嚴所以呢我們今天要來修補這個漏洞數學不好我教你數學沒關係齁那請不要把大法官當作洗地的神奇寶貝謝謝因為剛剛"}]}},{"id":"155771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f059ceb3dd52860731f6b87f55f73740713d41a36ebdecff13a1ba94de77a37a3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:24:10 - 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也就是說在這一次的這個立法說明所謂的我們這次修法的所謂法定總額其實嚴格講也不是法定總額他是憲法定的他不是法律定的總額他就是憲定總額憲法定的總額就是15人那這個這個按照我們現在這個這個"},{"start":64.9,"end":71.384,"text":"憲法審判法,包括從第12條開始,12條、26條、30條、32條、43條、49條、75條、80條、87條,全部都有牽涉到現有總額的規定。那這現有總額的規定,裡面就是有說必須要現有總額,比如說三分之二的人參與評議,或者必須要有三分之二的人同意。"},{"start":90.046,"end":105.172,"text":"等等這些規定都是以現有總額來計算但是今天國民黨提案我們今天所要審查的就是說要把現有總額改成法定總額也就是說我們在今年的這個在即將到了10月31號就這個禮拜10月31號我們到了之後我們有總共有這個7位大法官任期屆滿"},{"start":115.851,"end":142.257,"text":"接下來呢其實在2個月前8月31號這個總統府就已經把這個接下來續任新任的新聘的大法官的這個同意權名單送到我們立法院來但立法院拖到現在一直都不審查連協商都沒有協商也就是說從11月1號開始我們的大法官人數15人減掉這7人我們只剩下8個人"},{"start":143.766,"end":149.427,"text":"我們只剩八個大法官那這八個大法官呢未來如果今天"},{"start":150.826,"end":176.376,"text":"強行修法通過把現有總額等於法定總額也就是說我們所有在這個法律裡面的這些大法官的這個憲法審判裡面所有需要的要件全部需要現有總額本來是現有總額現有總額的意思是什麼就是說我們現在有缺七個人但是現有總額就是八個人用八個人來做基礎來計算需要二分之一同意需要三分之二通過"},{"start":177.861,"end":201.783,"text":"但是我們立法院到現在不審查大法官的同意權卻先審查我們的這個先修改我們將現有總額修改成法定總額就是剛講的15人也是未來都必須要15個人的半數15個人的三分之二來通過那是多少呢也就是15個人的三分之二就是10個人但是未來大法官只有8個人"},{"start":203.291,"end":224.377,"text":"也就是說從通過這個法律開始11月1號開始我們的司法我們司法院大法官的這個憲法法庭就癱瘓了就癱瘓了我們今天如果通過這個法11月下個禮拜我們的憲法法庭就癱瘓了我們看到國民黨提這個案子我們真的是非常非常的遺憾而且非常非常憤怒了國民黨現在他們現在齁"},{"start":230.307,"end":247.791,"text":"我們今天這個案子讓司法院的憲法法庭癱瘓然後考試院不審理考試委員讓考試院癱瘓行政院不審理總預算讓行政院癱瘓監察院是任期還沒到捏要不然監察院也要被他們癱瘓是什麼樣的人會這樣子整個中華民國政府他們的目的就是癱瘓中華民國政府五院裡面現在他們就癱瘓三院"},{"start":259.028,"end":259.849,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":284.878,"end":286.72,"text":"請國民黨懸來勒馬我再講一遍請國民黨懸來勒馬今天主席排這個案子我認為會變成未來中華民國憲法的罪人謝謝"}]}},{"id":"155786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0971a06813a3191e6f6b87f55f737407150be7fc235aa9711d4763c261ae1c13a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:02:00 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in節目說了算還是地下電台說了算"},{"start":104.219,"end":124.043,"text":"當然不是嘛當然是立法院審查結果說的算嘛這些大法官會議這些大法官提名人事任不事任不是我們在這裡說誰事任誰不事任而是最後到底是不是事任是立法院審查之後有通過同意的他就是事任沒有不同意的他就是不事任這麼簡單的道理"},{"start":127.205,"end":147.371,"text":"所以今天國民黨所說的我覺得這個邏輯今天這個法案今天如果要修法很簡單他的前提就是因為提名的大法官不施任所以未來他會不足而那我們就大法官會的人事同意權先審啊先來看到底是不是像翁曉玲講的是不是像林思平講的說都不施任呢"},{"start":148.396,"end":162.177,"text":"我們就來審查,先審查大法官人事同意權如果頭頭不施認,哇憲法法庭的運作有他們擔心的說少數人來決定那我們再來修改這個也不遲阿以你們的人數多數一天就可以碾壓過阿"},{"start":164.332,"end":182.798,"text":"所以我希望主席我們要調整這個程序這個法案應該要在人事同意權審查之後再審查這個是不辨自明的他們自己也講的啦也講說他們今天提這個案的前提就是因為他們覺得現在所提名的人不適任那就來審查嘛"},{"start":185.041,"end":207.763,"text":"這個另外一個最重要的重點就是他們所講的這些解釋什麼大方這個憲法法院判決講死廢死啊講死刑啊講這個國會擴權啊各位憲法法院的判決不是只有這個而且這個是很在裡面很少數大部分的憲法法院的判決都是攸關人民權益他是人民權益的最後救濟手段"},{"start":208.644,"end":228.521,"text":"我們今天癱瘓憲法法庭不是癱瘓他們做這些政有關他們關心的死刑跟這個國會擴權的解釋而已是剝奪了人民權益最終救濟手段我們用一條憲法訴訟法的修正再加上不審人這個人事同意權來剝奪中華民國國民的權益的最後救濟手段這樣對嗎以上"},{"start":238.285,"end":239.019,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"155784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0a6340b67484c1f09f6b87f55f737407150be7fc235aa97112f3849b7c75922ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"09:53:24 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許今天翁曉玲委員可以找得到支持她的法律學者也許你也可以找得到但我認為讓這個社會上面對這件事情關心甚至是擔憂的人一起到委員會裡面用公聽會的形式正式公聽會的形式大家就來談嘛如果你覺得你的主張是對的為什麼不敢經過大家社會這些專業界的檢驗我要跟大家講這件事情已經影響很多法律專業界的恐慌了"},{"start":164.306,"end":181.912,"text":"我當然不是大法官但已經很多民間團體很多法律專業的組織現在正在連署甚至也高開記者會大家現在把這不是民進黨說的這些民間專業團體他說這是把人民訴訟權當做人質這是當作政治攻防的犧牲品這都是民進黨講的不是民進黨講的"},{"start":192.045,"end":211.154,"text":"如果你覺得民進黨就是政治護航那讓這些專業意見來委員會裡面講一講來評判一下今天林市民委員你也是律師啊請你的律師朋友請你贊成你的主張的一起到司法委員會的公聽會裡面大家來討論來辯論嘛為什麼國民黨不敢為什麼市民委員不敢為什麼翁曉玲委員不敢"},{"start":218.769,"end":235.843,"text":"讓專業者讓專業意見進來提供意見為什麼不敢?我大概注意時間但我現在要講的事情是有上來這麼多的人關心這件事情憂慮這件事情讓這些憂慮的人或贊成的人也許有些人贊成我不知道我覺得可能很少"},{"start":238.433,"end":249.47,"text":"司法委員會來評論一下蔡主席我要說我們先召開公聽會這麼重大影響的法案必須力求審慎"},{"start":251.786,"end":253.687,"text":"拜託各位委員"}]}},{"id":"155781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0f4ef34437ccca4f4d42df3203622d4e33d41a36ebdecff132f59d385ed4ec7715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:44:22 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T10:01:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T10:05:56+08:00","duration":287,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.1953437500000001,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.712218750000005,"end":56.275343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.56221875000001,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.633468750000006,"end":67.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.99909375,"end":74.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.71534375,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.91346875,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.34346875,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.31721875000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.75034375,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.05784375,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.46971875000001,"end":110.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.55346875000001,"end":121.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.39159375000001,"end":130.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.96409375000002,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.28846875000002,"end":167.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.20721875,"end":169.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.64159375,"end":189.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.07721875000001,"end":208.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.46659375000002,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.50409375,"end":224.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.62034375000002,"end":225.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.40909375,"end":237.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.96846875000003,"end":245.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.40596875000003,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.52971875000003,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.11159375,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.84971875,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.28846875,"end":271.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.47346875,"end":277.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.14784375,"end":279.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.10534375000003,"end":280.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.08409375,"end":284.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.42096875000004,"end":287.51346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.522,"end":1.905,"text":"張海林委員做會議詢問"},{"start":14.693,"end":40.504,"text":"主席好、各位委員好但我想在我發言之前我想要先做兩點的說明就是說剛剛賴氏堡委員有說我們今天不是要來杯葛的我必須鄭重的澄清我們並不是要來杯葛我想作為一個關心國家總預算的立法委員我們都應該要來為我們的總預算能夠敬、能夠奉偉來做好好的說明跟爭取第二件事情我想要來做個說明是剛剛"},{"start":41.924,"end":67.022,"text":"陳玉珍主席他說李昆城委員覺得我們這次邀請的層次太低我想我必須來說明層次跟層級的兩個差異我想如果陳玉珍委員需要字典我也可以送過去那再來就是說針對我們這一次剛剛前面有非常多的委員其實都有提到就是說我們總預算到現在此時無法復委可是我們現在卻要來進行一個財化法的討論"},{"start":69.059,"end":82.901,"text":"我們現在114年總預算都還沒有著落去討論115年是不是有點秩序不分重要性的排序搞不清楚"},{"start":85.336,"end":110.661,"text":"我想因為其實我們這陣子因為我的責任區在桃園的盧竹跟龜山還有大園我們常常也都會遇到國民黨的委員在地方說跟鄉親說我會回去幫你們爭取預算我會去跟中央來爭取但是已經第五次黨總預算了我不知道是不是太習慣我們的國民黨委員都太習慣來開這個空口支票不好好的來做我們立法院的工作"},{"start":112.597,"end":129.855,"text":"那上個月就是9月財政部公布了明年度的中央統籌分配稅款總額達到了歷史新高4461.17億元那這個總預算如果不通過那請問這些資源該怎麼分配所以我要再次的來呼籲我們希望國民黨的立委"},{"start":131.016,"end":151.662,"text":"一起來支持我們114年總運算的順利審查這關係到我們所有所有全體國民的一個福利那同時我也發現國民黨這次提出的一個財劃法將對中央的財政造成巨大的衝擊讓我們不得不正視這幾個重大的影響第一個中央稅法減少之後我們的中央稅路將大幅的減少"},{"start":153.281,"end":167.216,"text":"4000多億元為了維持財政紀律中央舉債數不應再增加就只能縮減我們的稅出規模同時因為無法刪除我們這些法律義務支出像是人事費、社會保險支出還有教育經費"},{"start":168.357,"end":182.423,"text":"所以呢我們就會有一些計劃要受到影響那這幾個計劃其實對我來說我非常關注因為我一直都是在做兒童權利跟兒童相關福利的像是少子化對策會直接少了291億還有強化社安網的第二期計劃75億我們我想凱開案這些案子大家都記憶猶新如果我們不來積極的強化佈局這些事情我們難道要讓事情再發生嗎"},{"start":195.228,"end":207.85,"text":"每次當事件出來的時候大家都說我們要來極力的打擊這件事情強化我們的社安網可是我們現在的作為是完全不省而且我們甚至把這些計劃的經費可能都會受到影響這是這個財化法非常危險的地方"},{"start":209.502,"end":236.879,"text":"再來還有就是說我們的前瞻特別預算像是我們的這些提升人行安全計劃整體性的治山防災計劃其實都會受到影響山坨和颱風帶的影響性大家我想都記憶猶新那還有我們這個行人安全的事情我們不要因為現在的這些財化法的一個錯誤的分配造成我們的縣市沒有辦法我們現在國家這個整體的計劃沒有辦法在縣市好好的去推動"},{"start":238.001,"end":266.65,"text":"最後我還是想要講因為剛剛王宏威委員有講到說其實大家的共識都是可以來修財劃法但後面有一句話叫做奇異很大這個奇異很大呢其實還需要做更多充分的討論而且事權的分配到底應該要如何的分配不能夠只拿錢不辦事嘛不負任何的權利所以我希望可以在充分的討論收集大家的意見讓我們如果我們要要做這件事情的話就好好地把事情做好謝謝"},{"start":268.962,"end":271.225,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員雖然聽到最後不知道要回應詢問什麼事情不過謝謝你對本人的指正"}]}},{"id":"155785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T09:48:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T09:54:12+08:00","duration":334,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.79784375,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.34096875,"end":80.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.44409375000001,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.24471875,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.78721875000001,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.09909375000001,"end":105.31409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.12409375,"end":107.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.37284375,"end":110.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.72659375,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.73034375,"end":116.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.53596875000001,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.74159375000002,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.62659375,"end":174.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.92346875,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.10909375,"end":181.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.84221875,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.05659375000002,"end":276.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.92846875000004,"end":307.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.96159375,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.98659375,"end":317.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.22596875,"end":318.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.62659375000004,"end":319.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.72346875,"end":321.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.63471875000005,"end":323.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.06471875,"end":324.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.50721875,"end":327.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.11471875,"end":330.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.59534375000004,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.94534375,"end":334.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.369,"end":21.378,"text":"在這一次就是在野黨的一個修法那事實上有沒有道理我覺得這個是可以探討的那就是國民黨的新的版本基本上其實是還沒有拿出來那為什麼會有新的版本那當然他們也知道就是說在第一次他們丟出來的一個版本他一邊要搶5777億的一個預算可是他一手"},{"start":28.001,"end":48.496,"text":"又要擋3兆的這個預算。這個顯然是非常錯亂啦。非常錯亂。為什麼?如果我們以國民黨目前提出的版本,他是要從中央多拿5000多億。可是,國民黨就是即使國民黨他提出來的一個修正版,中央也要再多釋出4000多億啊。"},{"start":49.737,"end":65.851,"text":"那現行的中央分配補助地方的一個統籌分配款跟補助款的1兆以我們是用114年的這個預算概括來看那依照國民黨提案通過等同中央要再給地方1.4兆"},{"start":68.376,"end":80.382,"text":"等於是說中央要再給地方一點視照啊這政府才會不會倒呢?政府絕對倒啊那我們不知道就是說國民黨他們存在的一個心態是什麼樣的一個心態"},{"start":81.892,"end":103.51,"text":"一手推這個財劃法要從中央大搬錢然後一手又去擋中央的一個預算那剛才剛才我們賴委員我們賴世保委員他有講說如果以目前來講的話中央是皇帝那地方是乞丐那怎麼讓他去吃在官廟說的這也很奇怪的不是貝殼啦我跟你講為什麼今天我們"},{"start":111.806,"end":133.221,"text":"我們民眾黨的議員來了這麼多這個其實是可以表示就是說我們不是來杯葛我們是非常重視這個財劃法那也不是來鬧場是因為我們重視所以我們希望就是說財委會它的每一個每一個就是環節裡頭都可以很精準的開會"},{"start":134.342,"end":155.177,"text":"那在這裡我也是再一次跟陳一貞委員、趙委我們會再共同協商我想公聽會我們必須要再開因為公聽會的一個開法就是說我會主張就是地方跟中央不是只有錢的問題還有這個"},{"start":157.859,"end":180.819,"text":"事權,你這個事情誰來做啊?事情誰來做這個非常重要了,剛王洪威委員特別在點到我們台南我想這個他又有點那個片斷了,那斷章取義了,其實財劃法的分配25年來為什麼都沒有修,這個過程裡頭其實是有5次的一個修法,那如果就是說"},{"start":181.94,"end":204.741,"text":"直轄市的一個申請的話其實它有很多建設案是申請的方式還是競爭的方式那你這樣子講台南是不公平的我們台南是很努力的這個要回到就是說整個財劃法裡頭中央跟水平的一個財務上的一個分配我們沒有真正的落實到這個"},{"start":205.922,"end":230.403,"text":"事權、這個權利、事權怎麼分配這個是我的一個主張啦那當然就是說財法法距離上一次的修法是在1999年那經過了25年這期間也發生了就是在2010年2014年六度的合併跟升格的大事情那其實每一次中央跟地方前線的一個衝突的這個"},{"start":231.764,"end":246.49,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":256.254,"end":256.454,"text":"我們還可以再討論。謝謝主席。"},{"start":277.961,"end":305.9,"text":"我們謝謝賴會員、委員不過那個民進黨團是不是弄錯我們要審的我們要審的版本你說黨的總計算這是114年明年的版本但是修財文法不可能114年就適用最快最快也是115年這是兩個潮態的事情兩個連分的事情這個審的是114我們現在總計算沒有送假那是114的那修財文法最快適用也是115這怎麼會是一件事情不會混為一談"},{"start":311.864,"end":323.034,"text":"但是你那個說一手擋預算、一手搶預算一個是114個、一個不是同一個事情所以我們也會充分討論我們也會充分討論會讓大家充分討論"}]}},{"id":"155875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe5c4a3f6b711698d09d42df3203622d4e366daa4be0611873bf9d33c05e56a85b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"16:41:17 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T16:41:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T16:58:11+08:00","duration":1014,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.755968750000001,"end":39.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.88971875,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.471593750000004,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.99096875000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.84721875000001,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.82346875000002,"end":184.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.57159375,"end":198.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.49346875,"end":212.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.97659375,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.27346875,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.86784375000002,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.31221875,"end":283.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.97034375000004,"end":280.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.65346875,"end":283.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.81784375,"end":283.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.85159375,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.88534375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.96971875,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.42096875000004,"end":286.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.16971875,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.03784375000004,"end":309.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.19346875,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.96909375,"end":340.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.70909375,"end":333.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.19284375,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.63034375,"end":364.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.37909375000004,"end":372.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.91784375000003,"end":412.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.28284375000004,"end":416.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.31596875,"end":422.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.72846875000005,"end":448.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.15471875000003,"end":450.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.17159375000006,"end":477.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.09221875000003,"end":473.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.61471875,"end":478.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.16721875,"end":478.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.18409375000005,"end":478.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.21784375000004,"end":478.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.28534375000004,"end":478.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.50471875000005,"end":478.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.97721875,"end":490.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.18784375,"end":481.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.04284375000003,"end":496.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.20221875000004,"end":547.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.16471875,"end":574.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.12346875,"end":570.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.35096875,"end":612.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6753437500001,"end":574.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.1303437500001,"end":579.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.21471875,"end":579.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.0222187500001,"end":598.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.1884687500001,"end":639.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.9734687499999,"end":647.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.4622187500001,"end":643.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.9934687500001,"end":647.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.96346875,"end":683.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.2397187500001,"end":662.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.2565937500001,"end":670.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.5022187500001,"end":683.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.56971875,"end":683.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.87346875,"end":684.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.02534375,"end":694.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.1303437500001,"end":687.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.9103437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這都是你講的話嘛 對不對好所以呢我現在要來問了剛剛在這邊有一個無立法委員說"},{"start":233.985,"end":238.546,"text":"原民會的單位編列預算4萬,綜合發展基金會另外編列2萬但是我特別帶了中發基金的預算書來我怎麼翻裡面都沒有看到這個預算書裡面綜合發展基金有2萬塊的預算"},{"start":254.676,"end":278.414,"text":"我反而看到的是在第12頁裡面其他業務收入有28億這個28億是行政院願意給禁法補償的費用然後呢由原民會的公務預算撥補到綜合發展基金裡面來給原住民嘛主計長沒有錯吧"},{"start":279.452,"end":296.357,"text":"報告委員,您向淨化補償的一個發辦我沒有問你這個,這是我下一個問題嘛我現在問你的是第12頁裡面上面寫的其他業務收入28億1600多是辦理原住民保留地淨化補償經費的經費嘛 對不對"},{"start":299.178,"end":309.128,"text":"所以我要說明還沒嘛還沒說嘛這個28億是行政院給原民會的公務預算沒有錯吧"},{"start":310.222,"end":314.123,"text":"公務預算透過基金所以嘛我就跟你說28億進法補償只有原民會的公務預算編在這裡對不對然後28億再放到綜合發展基金裡面去給原住民的進法補償嘛對不對這是基金的來源"},{"start":333.667,"end":339.746,"text":"你講對或不對嗎?28億是不是這樣?這是基金的來源好,我現在再告訴你一下齁"},{"start":341.64,"end":345.623,"text":"來,基金的設立終止。64年這個也是中發基金喔,明年都要告訴我們喔。64年台灣省政府為了輔導原住民族創業生產發展原住民族地區經濟而開辦的貸款業務。"},{"start":364.534,"end":391.19,"text":"然後94年左手嚴明原住民族綜合發展基金四年計劃他辦理什麼呢?原住民的貸款業務信用保證業務他還增加新的服務項目包括什麼?開辦原住民族微型經濟活動貸款輔助原住民族部落溫泉投資開發業務等等對吧?沒有錯嗎?禁法補償在哪裡?沒有"},{"start":391.63,"end":415.829,"text":"然後再來看一下基金的規類及屬性這個基金呢是按照預算法第四條第二項第二款第四目所定明言講出凡付出仍可收回而非用於營業之住業基金所以綜合發展基金講得很清楚"},{"start":417.489,"end":422.344,"text":"是要付出去可以收回,請問禁法補償出去了還能收回嗎?"},{"start":423.926,"end":446.583,"text":"當然不行對不對?好我們再來看一下今年3月5號行政院陳建仁前院長跟朱哲銘前主計長備詢的時候他都說可以尊重修法的可行性只要修法通過就會編列預算這是行政院當初的誠意主計長為什麼過了幾個月之後行政院態度大變你們只願意編列4萬的補償金為什麼?"},{"start":450.322,"end":472.816,"text":"報告委員齁 這個部分呢原住民的淨化補償在基本法裡面他第18條他有規定他基金的來源就包括政府撥補有關淨化補償相關的賠償相關的一個費用然後你從他的用途別的計劃裡面就是在基金用途他的裡面計劃也有一項是屬於淨化補償相關的一個支出所以他收入和支出兩個是相對應的只是說你這個才是"},{"start":478.519,"end":496.172,"text":"你講的是支出啊。我們來看一下綜合發展基金運用的相關法源依據是什麼。辦法是辦法。你的辦法不能夠逾越法律啊。我們來看一下相關法源依據。"},{"start":497.313,"end":513.818,"text":"原住民綜合發展基金收支保管以及運用辦法第一條它就明文規定原住民族綜合發展基金是依照預算法第21條的規定來辦理的我來看一下預算法第21條規定"},{"start":516.039,"end":541.304,"text":"政府設立的特種基金除了編列、預算、製成依本法規定辦理之外其收支保管辦法由行政院定之並送立法院再來看一下預算法第4條第1項第2款第4目凡經付出,緣可收回而非用於營業者為作業基金請問金髮補償發給族人還可以收回嗎?這又符合基金可付出"},{"start":545.885,"end":574.003,"text":"除人可收回的性質嗎?包括委員在那個原住民主基本法裡面它有說政府設立原住民綜合發展基金它可以基金來源由政府程序預算程序撥補所以包括原住民族土地補償土地的賠償、補償和收益款還有相關法令規定的一個撥款主計長這就是來源它已經有定了主計長它包括支出的用途它也有"},{"start":574.663,"end":587.077,"text":"主計長你的來源已經給了28億啊我知道啊行政院給了啊那我現在問你另外2萬在哪裡啊基金有嗎好啦不要浪費大家的時間了啦齁我現在總歸一句"},{"start":590,"end":601.184,"text":"既然禁法補償出去不可以償還這就代表著不符合付出優惠收回的要件而且這會讓基金負債這是我要講的另外一個問題它會讓基金負債更會讓基金破產所以呢我在114年預算書看到來"},{"start":613.688,"end":634.099,"text":"67頁我們的綜合發展基金短處了67億請問主計長114年累計短處67.7億是不是已經是當初主計總處所講的也就是朱前主計長的基金財務不敷情形要協處的狀況請問"},{"start":636.9,"end":648.225,"text":"要怎麼處理?你要撥補基金基金剩餘有將近30億啦因為整個基金我們本來是撥100多億嘛撥105年來來來你把資料翻出來我現在給你資料看105年剩了12.9億然後呢現在你給我的資料114年12月31號負債67億也就是短處67億主席長"},{"start":665.872,"end":671.396,"text":"說話都拿出證據好不好我現在問你的是短處67億你要怎麼處理因為前組記長說如果財務不敷其形你們會協處"},{"start":683.544,"end":687.966,"text":"會不會協處?要不要協處?要不要協處?好啦,基金已經要破產基金已經要破產了好,不要忘記禮拜五,上個禮拜五,郁真委員齁我們有提案嘛,對不對?原住民綜合發展經濟總額不可以低於新台幣100億嘛,對吧?"},{"start":713.64,"end":733.132,"text":"還記得嗎?昨天禮拜五在院會裡面民眾黨的立法委員反對原住民的立法委員也反對我真的搞不清楚你們到底要幹嘛因為我浪費太多的時間不好意思我現在回歸到財劃法的部分"},{"start":734.192,"end":753.145,"text":"103年財政紀律法的一個規定因為我們不能不要再講財政紀律法剛剛我們在裡面協商的時候大家都講得很清楚了財政紀律法裡面你113年台電你要追加這麼多錢欸你們都可以為什麼就沒有財政紀律法然後我們的老農津貼為什麼也不依照財政紀律法"},{"start":757.968,"end":781.277,"text":"這個莫名其妙了你們你們一直在講財政紀律財政紀律民進黨就沒有財政紀律然後回歸到原住民就有財政紀律不要這樣兩套標準好不好我現在回歸到財化法的部分103年地方制度法修正的時候恢復3地原住民族地區的自治地位但是呢也剝奪了3地原住民區的稅捐謝謝請主席長回去那個"},{"start":784.7,"end":805.008,"text":"財政部請上來,謝謝次長是嗎?今天來的,好好,103年地方制度法修正的時候恢復三地原住民族地區自治的地位但是呢,同樣的也剝奪了三地原住民區的稅捐還有三地原住民區的公共債務等等的財政事項"},{"start":805.928,"end":826.797,"text":"目前的補救方式也僅僅在地方制度法的第83之7條的規定。三地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市跟三地原住民區來協調。我們完全是要看直轄市的誠意。雙方協商能力是非常不對等的。這導致了三地原住民區的財措"},{"start":829.479,"end":854.333,"text":"財源的能力不如其他的鄉鎮市我們常常是處於經濟拮据的狀況難以分配專屬的統籌分配稅款僅僅只能依靠原民會的補助款在生存我們如果行政院有條文版本只要能夠解決山地原住民區的財政問題我願意來支持請問一下院板可以解決這些問題嗎?"},{"start":856.752,"end":879.19,"text":"目前是有提案,是有把這一部納進去了有嗎?現在行政院版本有嗎?在第幾條?這是吳委員的,吳立華吳委員的所以他也清楚知道這個部分對不對?那現在行政院,等一下我要問一下,不要行政院又跟吳立華委員的意見不一樣囉?"},{"start":880.191,"end":886.648,"text":"因為吳立華委員經法補償提6萬我們按照他的6萬通過結果行政院現在是說違憲"},{"start":889.222,"end":915.219,"text":"請問一下行政院的態度你現在沒辦法回答也沒關係啦我不要再用太多的時間財政收支劃分法第16條之一的特別統籌分配稅款是用中央統籌分配稅款的總額6%為額度來支應受分配地方政府緊急還有其他重大事項所需的經費我們看一下賴清德總統他在擔任行政院長的時候他說"},{"start":917.06,"end":935.348,"text":"106年度還有剩餘的中央特別統籌分配稅款他會分配給六都還有16縣市、198個鄉鎮市以及6個直轄市的山地原住民區這是賴清德總統做行政院長的時候他曾經做這件事情"},{"start":935.908,"end":965.208,"text":"所以我要問我們是不是能夠比較當時的先例未來我們就明文來規範特別統籌分配稅款一定額度必須要用於補助直轄市山地原住民區還有財政收入未達一定程度的偏鄉可以嗎這個是行政院的權責可不可以用文字入法雖然已經有人提案了但是我很怕"},{"start":966.268,"end":986.579,"text":"委員的提案行政院又不買單啊然後賴總統已經是總統了不是行政院長啊他又有雙標啊市長因為現在區就是我們直轄市裡面的區啊它的人口面積已經並同直轄市計算你要單獨又把它列出來列出來以後又是一個問題"},{"start":987.58,"end":1009.487,"text":"第2個你現在已經在幫賴總統在開始在圓他以前做的事情了好啦謝謝你謝謝你的回應不過要提醒你吼那個這個吳立華委員的提案吼我會完全支持喔不過希望行政院吼或者是賴總統不要再打臉你們自己民進黨的立委了謝謝好謝謝好謝謝高金素美委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1385,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（16時41分）非常謝謝玉珍委員。今天你真的非常的辛苦，讓大家這邊暢所欲言，謝謝。","好。今天雖然大家在討論財政收支劃分法，但是因為剛剛對於原住民禁伐補償和總預算的部分，有委員在這邊胡說八道，所以我還是要來說一下。我們剛剛朝野協商才結束，我也非常謝謝，也辛苦我們陳主計長，你也參加了，然後現在又來這裡。我也謝謝韓院長，因為政黨協商本來只有三長才能夠參加，但是因為禁伐補償和總預算是跟原住民的權益有關係的，所以特別就提了，只要是原住民身分的立委，都可以參加協商我比較遺憾的就是韓院長召集正式的政黨協商已經兩次了，可是呢？身為原住民的民進黨立委沒有一個人參加，來捍衛原住民的權益，這我感到非常的不可思議。我要再講一次，禁伐補償不是照顧，也不是福利，是政府侵權，侵犯了原住民個人的土地財產權，中華民國的憲法是保障人民的財產權的，所以我們才會在立法院來修、來提原住民的禁伐補償。好，我要再講一次，這個禁伐補償，縱使只有一個人的權益受損了，也應該要被保障啊，更何況領禁伐補償的人大概有五萬多人耶，這五萬多人，如果一戶有五口人的話，他就相當於三十幾萬的人口，這不是少數耶。所以請民進黨的立法委員不要在這邊可惡地裂解、分裂原住民的族人，好嗎？今天這個協商……我請陳主計長上來一下，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["高金委員素梅：今天的協商，我感到不可思議的是，民進黨的黨團一開始上來的時候就講，如果今天大家同意，115年民進黨要提出禁伐補償下修一公頃4萬塊，如果大家同意這個前提的話，114年原住民的禁伐補償案，他們就想辦法來編足，我感到實在不可思議，民進黨團會提這樣子的說法，但是我們的主計長的說法是說，如果原民會真的覺得預算不足的話，他們可以來想辦法用追加總預算，或是用二備金的方法，或是用原住民綜合發展基金來處理，行政院跟民進黨團似乎沒有溝通好啊！我發現行政院好像比較有誠意耶。主計長，你剛剛都在現場嘛，這都是你講的話，對不對？好，所以呢，我現在要來問了，剛剛在這邊伍麗華委員說，原民會的單位編列預算4萬，綜合發展基金會另外編列2萬，但是我特別帶了綜發基金的預算書來，我怎麼翻，都沒有看到這個預算書裡面「綜合發展基金」有2萬塊的的預算，我反而看到的是，在第12頁裡面「其他業務收入」有28億，這28億是行政院願意給禁伐補償的費用，然後由原民會的公務預算撥補到綜合發展基金裡面來給原住民。主計長，沒有錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，禁伐補償的發放……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有問你這個，這是我下一個問題。我現在問你的是第12頁裡面寫的「其他業務收入」二十八億一千六百多，是辦理原住民保留地禁伐補償的經費，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我要說明……"],["高金委員素梅：還沒說嘛。這個28億是行政院給原民會的公務預算，沒有錯吧？沒有錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是公務預算撥補基金，但是它支出也是透過基金……"],["高金委員素梅：所以嘛，我就跟你說，28億禁伐補償只有原民會的公務預算編在這裡，對不對？然後28億再放到綜合發展基金裡面，去給原住民的禁伐補償嘛，對不對？你講對或不對。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是基金的來源。"],["高金委員素梅：你講對或不對嘛，28億是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是基金的來源。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我現在再告訴你一下，玉珍委員再給我一點時間好不好？謝謝，對不起，因為一定要講清楚，說明白。","來，基金的設立宗旨起源於64年，這個也是綜發基金喔，64年臺灣省政府為了輔導原住民族創業生產，發展原住民族地區經濟，開辦貸款業務，然後94年著手研擬原住民族綜合發展基金四年計畫，辦理什麼呢？原住民的貸款業務、信用保證業務，還增加新的服務項目，包括開辦原住民族微型經濟活動貸款、輔助原住民族部落溫泉投資開發業務等等，對吧？沒有錯嘛？禁伐補償在哪裡？沒有。然後再來看一下基金的歸類及屬性，這個基金是按照預算法第四條第二項第二款第四目所定，明言講出凡經付出仍可收回，而非用於營業者，為作業基金，所以綜合發展基金講得很清楚，付出去可以收回。請問禁伐補償出去了還能收回嗎？當然不行，對不對？好，我們再來看一下，今年3月5日行政院陳建仁前院長跟朱澤民前主計長備詢的時候，都說可以尊重修法的可行性，只要修法通過，就會編列預算，這是行政院當初的誠意。主計長，為什麼過了幾個月之後，行政院態度大變？你們只願意編列4萬元補償金，為什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，原住民的禁伐補償在基本法第十八條有規定，基金的來源就包括政府撥補有關禁伐補償相關的賠償費用，然後從用途別的計畫裡面，就是在基金用途裡面，計畫也有一項是屬於禁伐補償相關的支出……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，謝謝主計長……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以收入和支出兩個是相對應的，只是說……"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝，你講的是支出啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：支出收入都一樣。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦。我們來看一下綜合發展基金運用的相關法源依據是什麼，辦法是辦法，你的辦法不能夠逾越法律。我們來看一下相關法源依據，原住民綜合發展基金收支保管及運用辦法第一條就明文規定，原住民族綜合發展基金是依照預算法第二十一條的規定來辦理的。來看一下預算法第二十一條規定，政府設立之特種基金，除其預算編製程序依本法規定辦理外，其收支保管辦法由行政院定之，並送立法院。再來看一下預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目，凡經付出仍可收回，而非用於營業者，為作業基金。請問，禁伐補償發給族人，還可以收回嗎？這有符合基金付出仍可收回的性質嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，原住民族基本法裡面有說，政府設立原住民綜合發展基金，基金來源由政府於預算程序撥補，所以包括原住民族土地的賠償、補償和收益款，還有相關法令規定的撥款，這就是來源，已經有定了，包括支出的用途也有……"],["高金委員素梅：主計長，你的來源已經給了28億，我知道啊，行政院給了，我現在問你另外2萬在哪裡啊！基金有嗎？好啦！不要浪費大家的時間了啦！我現在總歸一句，既然禁伐補償出去不可以償還，這就代表著不符合付出仍可收回的要件。"],["陳主計長淑姿：國庫可以撥補啦！"],["高金委員素梅：而且這會讓基金負債，這是我要講的另外一個問題，它會讓基金負債，更會讓基金破產，所以我在114年預算書第67頁看到綜合發展基金短絀了67億。請問主計長，114年累計短絀67.7億，是不是已經是當初主計總處所講的，也就是朱前主計長講的「基金財務不敷情形要協處」的狀況？請問，要怎麼處理？你要撥補基金，要不要撥補進來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，基金賸餘有將近30億。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有啦。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為整個基金我們本來是撥一百多億，105年……"],["高金委員素梅：來來來，你把資料翻出來，我現在給你資料看了，105年賸餘是12.9億，然後現在你給我的資料顯示，114年12月31日負債67億，也就是短絀67億，主計長，說話都拿出證據，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：67億是基金餘額……"],["高金委員素梅：你現在問你的是，短絀67億你要怎麼處理？因為朱前主計長說，如果財務不敷情形，你們會協處，會不會協處？會不會協處？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我跟您報告……"],["高金委員素梅：要不要協處？"],["陳主計長淑姿：基金餘額目前98億……"],["高金委員素梅：要不要協處？"],["陳主計長淑姿：短絀67億，還有30億。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，基金已經要破產了……"],["陳主計長淑姿：基金運作不是破產的問題……"],["高金委員素梅：基金已經要破產了。好，不要忘記，上個禮拜五，玉珍委員，我們有提案嘛，對不對？原住民綜合發展基金總額不可以低於新臺幣100億嘛，對吧？還記得嗎？禮拜五在院會裡面，民進黨的立法委員反對，原住民的立法委員也反對，我真的搞不清楚你們到底要幹嘛。我浪費太多的時間，不好意思，我現在回歸到財劃法的部分，103年……"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，那違反財政紀律法的一個規定，因為我們不能夠……"],["高金委員素梅：不要再講財政紀律法，剛剛我們在裡面協商的時候，大家都講得很清楚了，財政紀律法裡面，113年台電追加這麼多錢耶！你們都可以，為什麼就沒有財政紀律法？我們的老農津貼為什麼也不按照財政紀律法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是公司，和基金是不一樣的。"],["高金委員素梅：真是莫名其妙了，你們！你們一直在講財政紀律、財政紀律，民進黨就沒有財政紀律，然後回歸到原住民就要財政紀律，不要這樣兩套標準好不好？我現在回歸財劃法的部分，103年地方制度法修正的時候，恢復山地原住民族地區的自治地位，但是也剝奪了山地原住民區的稅捐。謝謝，請主計長回去，財政部請上來，謝謝。"],["主席：請次長。"],["高金委員素梅：今天來的是次長，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：好，103年地方制度法修正的時候，恢復山地原住民族地區自治的地位，但是同樣也剝奪了山地原住民區的稅捐，還有山地原住民區的公共債務等等財政事項。目前的補救方式也僅僅在地方制度法的第八十三條之七規定，山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源，由直轄市跟山地原住民區來協調。我們完全要看直轄市的誠意，雙方協商能力是非常不對等的，這導致山地原住民區籌措財源的能力不足，不如其他的鄉鎮市，我們常常是處於經濟拮据的狀況，難以分配專屬的統籌分配稅款，只能依靠原民會的補助款生存。如果行政院有條文版本，只要能夠解決山地原住民區的財政問題，我願意來支持。請問一下，院版可以解決這些問題嗎？"],["阮次長清華：目前有提案，有把這一部分納進去了。"],["高金委員素梅：有嗎？現在行政院版本有嗎？在第幾條？"],["阮次長清華：就是伍委員的……"],["高金委員素梅：誰的？"],["阮次長清華：伍麗華委員的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以他也清楚知道這個部分對不對？"],["阮次長清華：他也質詢過很多次。"],["高金委員素梅：好，等一下我要問一下，不要行政院又跟伍麗華委員的意見不一樣了，因為伍麗華委員禁伐補償提6萬，我們按照他提的6萬通過，結果行政院現在說違憲。請問一下行政院的態度，好，你現在沒辦法回答也沒關係，因為我不要再占用太多的時間。"],["阮次長清華：對，因為這個是財政紀律法。"],["高金委員素梅：根據財政收支劃分法第十六條之一，特別統籌分配稅款是用中央統籌分配稅款的總額6%為額度，來支應分配地方政府緊急還有其他重大事項所需的經費。我們看一下，賴清德總統在擔任行政院長的時候說，106年度還有剩餘的中央特別統籌分配稅款，他會分配給六都，還有16縣市、198個鄉鎮市，以及6個直轄市的山地原住民區，賴清德總統做行政院長的時候曾經做這件事情，所以我要問，我們是不是能夠比照當時的先例，未來我們就明文來規範，特別統籌分配稅款一定額度必須用於補助直轄市山地原住民區，還有財政收入未達一定程度的偏鄉，可以嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這個是行政院的權責。"],["高金委員素梅：可不可以用文字入法？雖然已經有人提案了，但是我很怕委員的提案行政院又不買單了，然後賴總統現在已經是總統了，不是行政院長，他又有雙標啊，次長。"],["阮次長清華：因為現在直轄市裡面區的人口面積已經併同直轄市計算了，你要單獨又把它列出來，列出來以後又是一個問題。第二個……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，你現在已經開始在幫賴總統圓他以前做的事情了。好啦，謝謝你，謝謝你的回應，不過要提醒你，伍麗華委員的提案我會完全支持喔，不過希望行政院或者是賴總統不要再打臉你們自己民進黨的立委了，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金素梅委員。我看原住民委員對這個都有相同的提案，財政部好好審慎思考一下。","接著，我們請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155869","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f003e62da873a0bd89f6b87f55f7374071b42a5ebad50c8a471e764f71d2506ef45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"13:34:13 - 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«憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案》案。"},{"start":93.145,"end":108.336,"text":"現在的情況不太一樣,而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度不要讓就是有過少的大法官"},{"start":109.176,"end":122.622,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":128.004,"end":130.328,"text":"否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊"},{"start":141.068,"end":161.999,"text":"對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任"},{"start":163.059,"end":177.772,"text":"那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間"},{"start":179.79,"end":198.581,"text":"但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判"},{"start":199.79,"end":201.492,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。（"},{"start":223.278,"end":248.098,"text":"憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到"},{"start":249.426,"end":277.753,"text":"司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣"},{"start":280.148,"end":286.414,"text":"我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。"},{"start":302.093,"end":322.626,"text":"我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法"},{"start":323.268,"end":323.508,"text":"憲法訴訟法"},{"start":343.564,"end":344.745,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":363.255,"end":363.495,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":384.404,"end":401.609,"text":"那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的"},{"start":413.792,"end":436.32,"text":"大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的"},{"start":439.601,"end":449.083,"text":"條文會有相衝突。憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定一本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊"},{"start":469.932,"end":471.733,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案》案。"},{"start":484.856,"end":507.131,"text":"這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法院都不信。怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是"},{"start":509.905,"end":529.625,"text":"其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決"},{"start":533.339,"end":545.268,"text":"那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利"},{"start":562.961,"end":574.051,"text":"只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案"},{"start":588.764,"end":591.285,"text":"這是秘書處自己,這是憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?"},{"start":602.23,"end":619.451,"text":"各位委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的"},{"start":621.453,"end":638.507,"text":"所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要踩高標準"},{"start":641.77,"end":641.81,"text":"議員翁曉玲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（13時34分）主席好。有請副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副秘書長，您好。我看到這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條及第九十五條的報告，裡面有一些問題可能必須請副秘書長這裡再釐清。首先，您在報告書裡面有提到過去確實有一些大法官提前卸任，或是因病過世死亡，以至於會產生部分缺額，請教您，在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七、八位大法官的？有沒有缺額這麼多？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：報告委員，應該是沒有，最多大概就是迴避六位的那一次。"],["翁委員曉玲：那個是迴避。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我知道，缺額應該沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：但我是說如果是缺額的話？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們書記廳的統計，最多的缺額是五位。"],["翁委員曉玲：曾經是有五位。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：那麼，如果以我們法定總額十五人來講，就算是缺額五位，也還有十人嘛，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果十人當中有一位迴避，如果像委員這樣……"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要講的是因為這次情況不太一樣，而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度，健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度，不要讓過少的大法官進行裁判審議。這個部分在其他的民主國家裡面，滿多國家其實在他們的憲法法院法或是憲法訴訟法裡面都有明訂最低的開會人數，它是有道理在的，對不對？否則為什麼我們的憲法要說要有十五位大法官，假設七個人、六個人、五個人就可以開會、就可以審議的話，那以後我們的大法官就不用這麼多人了啊！所以它是有它一定的道理。","我現在要講的就是，因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況，更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任，以我們現在的規定來講，的確就是只剩下八位大法官在任，那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任，我們不知道！至少看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權審查，所以勢必會耽誤一些時間。但是我個人想法也不認為這個時間會耽擱太久，重點是即便是一個月、兩個月、三個月，在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度、影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判，這個是我們希望在憲法裁判的作成能夠更加的嚴謹，這也符合這次大法官在死刑有條件合憲判決裡面主要的意旨，因為我們在程序上面要採取最嚴格、最嚴謹的方式去做。","憲法訴訟法明定大法官有總額，說實在話滿多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的，因為現在看起來的確會出現一些過去可能不曾想到的狀況，那我們怎麼樣能夠把憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來，這件事情是重要的。可是我現在看到司法院在報告書上所寫的內容，的確會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮。怎麼說呢？本席認為把現在大法官現有總額的概念，跟民意代表、立法委員的現有總額混為一談，是很不應該的，第一、大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣，現在立法委員有113位，未來有可能超過一半57位都缺額嗎？不會嘛！可是大法官是可能宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要職務，我們怎麼可能允許少數人就可以宣告某一個法律違憲？這也不符合民主原則，所以把大法官現有總額的概念拿來跟立法委員現有總額相比，就是個不倫不類的舉例，我不知道副秘書長的看法。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為法條用語都是現有總額，包含立法院職權行使法，所以我們很多法制上都叫現有總額，一般的理解，現有總額都會排除掉缺額跟缺任的情形，但我們今天要在憲法訴訟法，針對普遍存在的一個法制用語，特別去定義，我們覺得在法制的一致性上可能真的需要斟酌，如果說是為了避免少數人，其實像委員所講的，很多國家當然有這個規範，但是很多國家也有一些補充的規定。比如雖然缺額有規定最低人數，但是他們也有上一任的或者上一任的任期屆滿沒有來得及改選的時候有延長任期的規定，或者是暫時行使職權的規定，那我們這邊都沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝副秘書長的說明，我想我們這次的修法，本席也參考了很多國家的修法，像韓國、法國、日本，乃至捷克等等這些國家，其實他們都有明定法定的開會最低人數。剛剛講過，大法官的職權功能很重要，不應該由少數的大法官推翻全民意旨所通過的法律，這個部分是很不恰當的，大法官只有八年一次，可能經過立法院行使同意權，之後他的民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了，他可能最後根本不甩民意，都有這樣的情況出現。","接下來本席還要再講的就是你們在報告裡寫我提出來的條文會跟迴避條文相衝突，憲法訴訟法第十二條規定，依本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數，本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正第十二條，我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突？我覺得這就是誤導民眾，如果現在修了未來15個人的明定總額，它的計算分母就是15個人，如果有迴避，有五、六個符合法定迴避事由，當然要扣除啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為之前從條文上並沒有看出來是跟第十二條……"],["翁委員曉玲：我只修了憲法訴訟法第四條的條文欸！你們這樣解釋是有問題的，是錯的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只是說這個部分可能需要解釋，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：這怎麼會需要解釋？符合法定迴避事由的法官當然要扣除在外啊！我沒有說符合法定迴避事由的大法官還要計入現有總額的人數，我並沒有這樣子說呀！所以你們整段的論述是有問題的。","另外，我還要再談的就是你們講現在有138個人民聲請釋憲案已經受理了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：公告了。"],["翁委員曉玲：已經公告了，對不對？可是從111年、112年裡面看起來，大法官一年只做20件憲法裁判，今年是因為情況特殊，到目前為止大概只發布了8個至9個憲法判決，你們這麼多案子，為什麼這些也不積極處理？現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額，不讓這8個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權，你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的，也是不對的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我們認為，每一個人民聲請基本權的憲法救濟，不管是多少件，每一件都是重要的，委員也贊成……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們並沒有否定人民聲請釋憲的權利，只是要不要從嚴，我們要採取更高程度地保障人民的釋憲權，到底是不是應該受理，或者不受理，這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官一起討論嗎？所以你們也是在誤導民眾。我們並沒有耽擱人民的釋憲聲請權，那麼能不能進行到案子的審理、排案，這是憲法法庭自己要去規劃的，等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理，這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲聲請權嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們就是憂慮，假設沒有辦法達到，因為這樣子的修法達不到可以開會的基本門檻的時候，這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審，已經受理的案件也不能判，而有一些案件對於人民的救濟其實還蠻急迫，所以我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以寧可就都不要這些大法官，反正少少的人就可以審，你們也覺得這樣是程序的保障嗎？大法官自己做了，就是死刑的重要案子都要一致決，涉及到人民的基本權利保障，而涉及到法律制度的健全，不就更應該要採高標準進行裁判、進行審理嗎？我認為，副秘書長應該回去反映給現在的院長，他還剩下幾天就要卸任，請他還是要跟賴總統講，如果我們未來審查大法官人事同意權可能不見得完全通過，有少部分通過的話，他也要尊重民意，能夠重新提出新的名單，好不好？OK，那就先這樣。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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有請副秘書長副秘書長我也好副秘書長您好就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告那裡面有一些問題呢我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清"},{"start":32.759,"end":53.05,"text":"首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的"},{"start":55.251,"end":65.977,"text":"有沒有這個缺位,缺額這麼多?最多大概就是回避六位的那一次吧,是不是?對,那個是回避,但是我說如果是缺額的話?最多的,目前我記到我們書記廳的統計,最多的缺額是五位。曾經是有五位,那麼如果說以我們法定總額15人來講的話,就算是缺額五位也還有十人嗎?"},{"start":81.638,"end":88.403,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":105.357,"end":122.324,"text":"來進行裁判審議,這個部分在其他的民主國家裡面蠻多國家其實他們都有明定在他們的憲法法院法或是憲法訴訟法裡面都有明定最低的開會人數,他是有道理在的。"},{"start":123.365,"end":134.565,"text":"否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊"},{"start":136.068,"end":156.997,"text":"對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任"},{"start":159.019,"end":172.798,"text":"接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間"},{"start":174.81,"end":193.581,"text":"但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判"},{"start":194.81,"end":195.291,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":218.298,"end":243.101,"text":"這個憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法規修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到"},{"start":244.443,"end":272.75,"text":"司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣"},{"start":275.168,"end":294.942,"text":"我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。"},{"start":297.113,"end":317.623,"text":"我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副名長您的看法"},{"start":318.268,"end":318.348,"text":"憲法訴訟法"},{"start":338.544,"end":341.405,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會"},{"start":364.631,"end":364.971,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲"},{"start":397.413,"end":417.824,"text":"大法官的職權功能很重要,不應該有少數的大法官推翻全民議職所通過的法律,這個部分是很不恰當的。大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的同意審查,那之後他在行使同意權之後,他就"},{"start":418.524,"end":419.605,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。（"},{"start":434.598,"end":449.602,"text":"條文會有相衝突。憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定一本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊"},{"start":464.872,"end":468.979,"text":"我只修了憲法第四條的條文欸!憲法訴訟法第四條的條文!對不對?你們這樣的解釋是有問題的是錯的"},{"start":479.853,"end":502.148,"text":"這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我一本就不清楚。怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是"},{"start":504.922,"end":524.622,"text":"其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決"},{"start":528.356,"end":534.177,"text":"那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是是的我們並沒有否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利"},{"start":557.961,"end":568.991,"text":"只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案"},{"start":583.764,"end":595.61,"text":"這是秘書處自己、憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?"},{"start":598.251,"end":614.471,"text":"我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的"},{"start":616.453,"end":634.008,"text":"所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要採高標準"},{"start":637.49,"end":643.153,"text":"來進行裁判來進行審理嗎對我認為說這個秘書長你應該回去反映給現在的這個院長他還剩下幾天就要卸任請他還是要去跟賴總統講啦那麼如果說是我們未來審查這個大法官人士同意權可能不見得完全通過有少部分通過的話他也要尊重民意能夠重新提出新的名單好不好好OK那就先這樣好謝謝"},{"start":665.104,"end":665.205,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（13時34分）主席好。有請副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副秘書長，您好。我看到這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條及第九十五條的報告，裡面有一些問題可能必須請副秘書長這裡再釐清。首先，您在報告書裡面有提到過去確實有一些大法官提前卸任，或是因病過世死亡，以至於會產生部分缺額，請教您，在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七、八位大法官的？有沒有缺額這麼多？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：報告委員，應該是沒有，最多大概就是迴避六位的那一次。"],["翁委員曉玲：那個是迴避。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我知道，缺額應該沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：但我是說如果是缺額的話？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們書記廳的統計，最多的缺額是五位。"],["翁委員曉玲：曾經是有五位。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：那麼，如果以我們法定總額十五人來講，就算是缺額五位，也還有十人嘛，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果十人當中有一位迴避，如果像委員這樣……"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要講的是因為這次情況不太一樣，而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度，健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度，不要讓過少的大法官進行裁判審議。這個部分在其他的民主國家裡面，滿多國家其實在他們的憲法法院法或是憲法訴訟法裡面都有明訂最低的開會人數，它是有道理在的，對不對？否則為什麼我們的憲法要說要有十五位大法官，假設七個人、六個人、五個人就可以開會、就可以審議的話，那以後我們的大法官就不用這麼多人了啊！所以它是有它一定的道理。","我現在要講的就是，因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況，更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任，以我們現在的規定來講，的確就是只剩下八位大法官在任，那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任，我們不知道！至少看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權審查，所以勢必會耽誤一些時間。但是我個人想法也不認為這個時間會耽擱太久，重點是即便是一個月、兩個月、三個月，在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度、影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判，這個是我們希望在憲法裁判的作成能夠更加的嚴謹，這也符合這次大法官在死刑有條件合憲判決裡面主要的意旨，因為我們在程序上面要採取最嚴格、最嚴謹的方式去做。","憲法訴訟法明定大法官有總額，說實在話滿多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的，因為現在看起來的確會出現一些過去可能不曾想到的狀況，那我們怎麼樣能夠把憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來，這件事情是重要的。可是我現在看到司法院在報告書上所寫的內容，的確會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮。怎麼說呢？本席認為把現在大法官現有總額的概念，跟民意代表、立法委員的現有總額混為一談，是很不應該的，第一、大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣，現在立法委員有113位，未來有可能超過一半57位都缺額嗎？不會嘛！可是大法官是可能宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要職務，我們怎麼可能允許少數人就可以宣告某一個法律違憲？這也不符合民主原則，所以把大法官現有總額的概念拿來跟立法委員現有總額相比，就是個不倫不類的舉例，我不知道副秘書長的看法。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為法條用語都是現有總額，包含立法院職權行使法，所以我們很多法制上都叫現有總額，一般的理解，現有總額都會排除掉缺額跟缺任的情形，但我們今天要在憲法訴訟法，針對普遍存在的一個法制用語，特別去定義，我們覺得在法制的一致性上可能真的需要斟酌，如果說是為了避免少數人，其實像委員所講的，很多國家當然有這個規範，但是很多國家也有一些補充的規定。比如雖然缺額有規定最低人數，但是他們也有上一任的或者上一任的任期屆滿沒有來得及改選的時候有延長任期的規定，或者是暫時行使職權的規定，那我們這邊都沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝副秘書長的說明，我想我們這次的修法，本席也參考了很多國家的修法，像韓國、法國、日本，乃至捷克等等這些國家，其實他們都有明定法定的開會最低人數。剛剛講過，大法官的職權功能很重要，不應該由少數的大法官推翻全民意旨所通過的法律，這個部分是很不恰當的，大法官只有八年一次，可能經過立法院行使同意權，之後他的民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了，他可能最後根本不甩民意，都有這樣的情況出現。","接下來本席還要再講的就是你們在報告裡寫我提出來的條文會跟迴避條文相衝突，憲法訴訟法第十二條規定，依本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數，本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正第十二條，我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突？我覺得這就是誤導民眾，如果現在修了未來15個人的明定總額，它的計算分母就是15個人，如果有迴避，有五、六個符合法定迴避事由，當然要扣除啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為之前從條文上並沒有看出來是跟第十二條……"],["翁委員曉玲：我只修了憲法訴訟法第四條的條文欸！你們這樣解釋是有問題的，是錯的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只是說這個部分可能需要解釋，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：這怎麼會需要解釋？符合法定迴避事由的法官當然要扣除在外啊！我沒有說符合法定迴避事由的大法官還要計入現有總額的人數，我並沒有這樣子說呀！所以你們整段的論述是有問題的。","另外，我還要再談的就是你們講現在有138個人民聲請釋憲案已經受理了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：公告了。"],["翁委員曉玲：已經公告了，對不對？可是從111年、112年裡面看起來，大法官一年只做20件憲法裁判，今年是因為情況特殊，到目前為止大概只發布了8個至9個憲法判決，你們這麼多案子，為什麼這些也不積極處理？現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額，不讓這8個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權，你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的，也是不對的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我們認為，每一個人民聲請基本權的憲法救濟，不管是多少件，每一件都是重要的，委員也贊成……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們並沒有否定人民聲請釋憲的權利，只是要不要從嚴，我們要採取更高程度地保障人民的釋憲權，到底是不是應該受理，或者不受理，這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官一起討論嗎？所以你們也是在誤導民眾。我們並沒有耽擱人民的釋憲聲請權，那麼能不能進行到案子的審理、排案，這是憲法法庭自己要去規劃的，等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理，這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲聲請權嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們就是憂慮，假設沒有辦法達到，因為這樣子的修法達不到可以開會的基本門檻的時候，這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審，已經受理的案件也不能判，而有一些案件對於人民的救濟其實還蠻急迫，所以我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以寧可就都不要這些大法官，反正少少的人就可以審，你們也覺得這樣是程序的保障嗎？大法官自己做了，就是死刑的重要案子都要一致決，涉及到人民的基本權利保障，而涉及到法律制度的健全，不就更應該要採高標準進行裁判、進行審理嗎？我認為，副秘書長應該回去反映給現在的院長，他還剩下幾天就要卸任，請他還是要跟賴總統講，如果我們未來審查大法官人事同意權可能不見得完全通過，有少部分通過的話，他也要尊重民意，能夠重新提出新的名單，好不好？OK，那就先這樣。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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"start":327.666,"end":353.964,"text":"事權的分配這個現在看起來這些版本那如果你要調整這些事權的分配你必須做哪些事你要不要去改土地增值稅法你要不要去改營業稅法要不要去修法那邊不用但是但是如果齁如果是要把這個勞健保或者榮保那些要改為地方來來這個負擔的話就會涉及到修正相關的法律的問題沒有沒有市長"},{"start":356.046,"end":363.017,"text":"我剛講的是說事權要移動嘛對啊如果未來,好我們營業稅把它改成由地方來課徵"},{"start":366.533,"end":385.889,"text":"這是由地方來課徵,課徵還是由國稅局跟海關來課徵,只是課完以後我們全部就下法?對,這樣就不對了,這樣照我的觀念就錯了,因為如果這個版本未來100%是屬於地方分配,如果100%是地方分配的話,這是不是要回到地方去課徵?"},{"start":387.409,"end":408.525,"text":"現在課徵基本上我們現在...你們還是希望保留是由你們來做統一的課徵因為你們有統一的法令解釋所以這個是適合由中央來課徵的不適合回到地方因為很多時候還是要有一個統一解釋嘛所以這就是會涉及到的對不對問題是人家在分配的時候這不管你中央他要全拿"},{"start":409.706,"end":436.527,"text":"他會呈現不合理他會呈現這個不合理因為現在是40%嘛現在是40%現在增加到100%另外有些首額稅因為他稅額比較大嘛所以像有一些就會增加到25%所以才會有一些版本會增加釋出的財源會達到7000多億的原因在這裡因為他把首額稅的那個比分出去的比重從10%達到25%那達得很高啦"},{"start":439.669,"end":462.775,"text":"這樣子當然就會嚴重衝擊中央的施政五年級都沒了,都沒了,都跌跌跌跌了市長我再跟你聊一題我看這一個以現在我們在101年的時候地方政府他的財政狀況是最差的整個地方政府總共負債了589億這是在101年的時候"},{"start":467.176,"end":479.993,"text":"那看起來在108年後地方政府的財政狀況開始逐步好轉在108年的時候地方的一些財政是正的正的119億"},{"start":481.96,"end":486.604,"text":"109年184億、110年189億、111年463億、112年648億市長你可以說明一下為什麼在108年後有這樣的一個翻轉地方政府的財政狀況有明顯的改善這個主要是什麼原因?最主要是因為稅收增加"},{"start":505.962,"end":530.67,"text":"因為我剛才講就是說我們現在分配的就是所謂稅是分配10%然後在營業稅是40%然後在貨物稅10%所以只要這幾個稅目增加的話就是他們的分配的就會增加所以他們的財政狀況就改善很多那相反的中央在同一個期間同一個期間大概就從101年到112年"},{"start":534.051,"end":548.791,"text":"只有3年是有剩餘的其他的全部都是赤字所以現在如果是從目前的這樣來看的話這地方目前的財政收支劃其實是比中央還要滾賤目前是這樣"},{"start":550.092,"end":555.135,"text":"他想你的說法就是說事實上中央透過補助的方式給地方有大力的幫忙啊!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!"},{"start":567.443,"end":582.251,"text":"而我們就打中央透過爭取那這一件事情上市長你的看法到底是怎樣?就是說同樣一個預算的執行由中央來執行或者是由地方他自己把錢拿回去他自己去執行你認為這個會有什麼差異嗎?"},{"start":584.813,"end":600.373,"text":"現在是這樣子因為現在都是它是部分出去啦部分出去大部分都是比例比如說百分之多少百分之多少出去啊那個系統現在全部都是中央在負責所以弄到地方以後它每一個地方都要有一套系統所以這個會很複雜"},{"start":602.876,"end":623.07,"text":"會很麻煩因為現在統一有國稅局、基層那就在這個程序上在成本上都便利很多以前再弄到各縣市那真的複雜以前就是各縣市那市長你們有盤整就是說這個市權的部分你認為你們有盤整出哪些是屬於適合"},{"start":624.674,"end":650.866,"text":"下放地方,如果他們要編了更多的一個統籌分配的預算那你現在有盤偵哪些事權可能會去下放地方?這個可能要主席總書來回答不過我據我了解就是比如說像這個計劃型補助計劃型補助以前有中央有補助給他那現在就是因為我一般的統籌分配稅款我給他很多了嘛所以我這個計劃型補助我就不給了"},{"start":651.986,"end":674.802,"text":"另外可能就是說老健寶或者是龍寶也是一樣我就可以把它收回來就是有地方自己負擔一定要用這種調整要不然中央沒辦法可是市長我覺得你剛剛列舉啦可是我覺得說用列舉的方式是還不足你必須要去開始盤略對當然因為現在很明顯的嘛現在事實上"},{"start":675.502,"end":695.748,"text":"不管是執政黨或者是在野黨,大家都對統籌分配,每個人都有他的看法。看起來,以召委我們現在這麼積極的態度,你應該也是會緊鑼密鼓地在排審。所以我覺得說你應該要列舉,說到底有哪些事權會隨著統籌分配的改變。"},{"start":696.548,"end":719.008,"text":"市全會也需要調整。我們這一部分我們再跟主席總署這邊來對,你們應該是要溝通,然後要開始列出來,然後讓大家去總之讓一些地方政府也要知道說我未來這些統籌分配哪一些工作未來可能中央就必須要就直接變成說醫療是地方要做的事情所以我是希望啦"},{"start":720.253,"end":747.3,"text":"昨天我們討論了很多今天從早上到現在雖然我們發現很多事情它的答案還是還是一個不清晰的狀況所以我希望說昨天我們等的就是說因為我時間一直超過一直超過嘛我會覺得說尊重宗家編委員如果有來沒來的話不然我等到他來你可以登記第三輪好嗎不然要等宗家編來啊"},{"start":751.692,"end":778.364,"text":"還是說,您的下一組財政我們繼續討論啦好不好我們一定會充分討論不用擔心喔充分討論對一定會對啦,我們就是說我們這次討論到這裡事實上可是我們還是需要我第一次講的時候我們需要很多資料耶那些資料我們到底說你們後面分配會變怎麼樣這我們都一定要搞清楚啊好不好好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,"},{"start":779.624,"end":787.451,"text":"幫你意見寫下,我們要做一個結論,會會會。謝謝,謝謝蔡議員。好,第二輪討論,我們接著請登記第三號的鍾嘉斌委員。鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌不在。好,我們廣泛討論第二輪討論,現在告一個段落,那我們在場委員還要發表意見的。第三輪討論要嗎?"},{"start":811.809,"end":815.455,"text":"蔡議員你要第三輪委員,第三輪討論,那我們就第三輪讓你..."}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1502,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（17時29分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我們今天一整天都在討論這個財政收支劃分法，從早上開始，我大概只有在下午黨團協商的時候不在場，剩下的時間我都在這邊聽。事實上，每個人對於財政收支都有一個自己認為合理的分配，但是這個分配的重點，仍在於中央政府的立場是什麼。你們說正在彙整八十幾個意見，並將這些意見逐漸收斂中，你認為收斂這些意見還需要多久的時間？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們之前從八十幾個收斂到目前為止，其實我們事前也花了很多的功夫。"],["蔡委員易餘：事前溝通跟各地方政府……"],["阮次長清華：因為各縣市政府都太堅持己見，都是用自己的利益，自己的角度去提意見……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！今天我站在地方政府，我也想要多為我們地方多爭取一點，大家都一定會想多爭取，因為過去地方的稅收跟中央比起來，來源當然是比較少。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果可以有機會多爭取一些預算或統籌分配的話，地方政府當然會站在自己的利益，這個都不用懷疑；但是我們不要忘了，過去也曾經有地方政府在使用自己的預算時因為浪費，讓地方政府入不敷出，差一點破產，後來也是靠中央政府挹注，來協助他們。對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：當時大概協助了多少？"],["阮次長清華：這個部分可能還要再查一下，當時協助最多的大概就是苗栗縣。目前超限的就剩下一個縣市，本來大概是兩個，包括宜蘭縣，宜蘭縣現在已經降下來了，都OK了；另外有五個縣市已經到警戒值，現在也都降到正常。最主要是稅收好。"],["蔡委員易餘：尤其是我們這幾年有超徵，超徵的部分，事實上也都有分配到地方……"],["阮次長清華：也都多分給他們嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：可是，有幾點想要跟召委分享。我認為有幾個問題，還是要先做一些沙盤式的確認。第一個，我們現在說中央要把財源下放到地方，在事權的部分，我們先不講單純的執行，就說收稅機關的部分，以土地增值稅為例，請教次長，土地增值稅現在是中央稅還是地方稅？"],["阮次長清華：是地方稅。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是如果照國民黨團現在的版本，未來縣市分配要從80%到100%"],["阮次長清華：等於全部都給地方。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是全部；如果它是地方稅，就由地方的財稅局來課徵……"],["阮次長清華：等於將來就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：將來的土地增值稅都是地方的，這是他們的版本好，這部分依課稅機關，我覺得還合理。"],["阮次長清華：這個可以，這個沒問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為地方自己課徵，這個沒有問題；但是其他的就不一樣了。例如營業稅，過去地方是40%，國民黨的版本變成100%，請問營業稅是地方稅，還是？"],["阮次長清華：現在是國稅。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以它是由財政部國稅局負責徵收的國稅，對不對？未來如果分出去的話，100%都屬於地方，事權是不是也應該分出去？"],["阮次長清華：當然啦！所以我們說錢跟權一定要同時考慮。"],["蔡委員易餘：錢跟權，對不對？我現在還沒有講到其他一些業務的執行；就單講課稅機關，因為這些稅未來要由哪個人來分配？我們本來還有一個叫作統籌分配，但是現在有一些版本的設計就是百分之百都塞給地方政府，變成課稅機關也產生了問題。還有貨物稅的部分，貨物稅現在是中央稅嗎？"],["阮次長清華：現在是中央稅，目前有10%分給地方。"],["蔡委員易餘：10%分給地方，這個部分在未來的版本可能會改變嗎？因為有好多版本，所以現在還不知道？總之，第一點就是責任跟事權的分配，事權的分配如果要調整，你必須做哪些事？要不要修改土地增值稅法？要不要修改營業稅法？要不要去修法？"],["阮次長清華：那邊不用，但如果要把勞健保或農保改為地方來負擔的話，就會涉及到相關法律的修正問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：不是喔！次長，我剛講的是事權要移動。"],["阮次長清華：對啊。"],["蔡委員易餘：未來營業稅如果改由地方課徵，你們財政部……"],["阮次長清華：不是由地方課徵，還是由國稅局跟海關來課徵，只是課徵完了以後，我們就全部下放。"],["蔡委員易餘：照我的觀念，這樣就不對了，就錯了！如果依這個版本，未來100%屬於地方分配，由地方分配的話，這是不是要回到地方去課徵？"],["阮次長清華：有關課徵的部分，基本上我們現在系統……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們還是希望保留，由你們來統一的課徵，因為你們有統一的法令解釋，所以這個適合由中央來課徵的，不適合回到地方，因為很多時候還是要有一個統一解釋？"],["阮次長清華：對，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這就涉及到了問題，對不對？因為人家在分配的時候，不管你中央，他要全拿，這樣就會呈現出不合理。"],["阮次長清華：原本是40%，現在增加到100%，另外有一些所得稅，所得稅稅額比較大，有一些會增加到25%，所以有一些版本增加釋出的財源會達到七千多億，原因就在這裡，因為他把所得稅分出去的比重，從10%拉到25%，拉得很高，這樣當然就會嚴重衝擊到中央的施政。原來有的錢都沒了，都到了地方嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我再跟你聊一題，101年是地方政府財政狀況最差的時候，整個地方政府總共負債589億，到了108年的時候，地方政府的財政狀況開始逐步好轉，來到正的119億，109年是184億，110年是189億，111年是463億，112年是648億。次長可以說明一下，為什麼108年後有這樣的一個翻轉，讓地方政府的財政狀況有了明顯的改善，主要原因是什麼？"],["阮次長清華：最主要是因為稅收增加，我剛才講了，我們現在的稅收分配，所得稅是10%，營業稅是40%，貨物稅是10%，只要這幾個稅目增加，他們的分配就會增加，他們的財政狀況也就改善很多。相反的，中央在同一期間，即101年到112年間，就三年是有剩餘的，其他的全部都是赤字。所以，如果這樣來看，地方目前的財政狀況，其實是比中央還要穩健，目前是這樣啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：照你的說法，事實上中央透過補助的方式，給了地方大力的幫忙！"],["阮次長清華：對，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：不過我早上聽到很多立委不買這個情，他們說不要、不要，就直接拿回地方，他們自己來做，不用再向中央來爭取。在這件事情上，次長的看法到底是怎樣？同樣一個預算的執行，由中央來執行，或者是地方把錢拿回去，它自己去執行，你認為這個會有什麼差異嗎？"],["阮次長清華：因為現在是部分放出去，大部分都是按比例，比如百分之多少，那個系統現在全都是中央在負責，如果放到地方，則每個地方都要有一套系統，這樣會很複雜、會很麻煩。因為現在統一由國稅局稽徵，在這個程序上、在成本上都便利很多。以前就是各縣市處理，那是真的複雜。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，如果他們要編更多統籌分配的預算，你們有沒有盤整出哪些事權適合下放地方？"],["阮次長清華：這個可能要主計總處來回答。不過據我了解，像計畫型補助以前中央有補助給他，現在因為一般的統籌分配款也給他很多，所以這個計畫型補助就不給了。另外，可能勞健保或農保也一樣，我就可以把它收回來，改由地方自己負擔，一定要用這種方式調整，要不然中央沒辦法……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得次長剛剛用列舉的方式還不足，你必須開始去盤點……"],["阮次長清華：對，當然。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為現在很明顯的，不管是執政黨或在野黨，大家對統籌分配，每個人都有他的看法。以召委這麼積極的態度，應該也會緊鑼密鼓地再排審，所以我覺得你們應該要列舉出來，隨著統籌分配的改變，到底有哪些事權也需要跟著調整？"],["阮次長清華：對於這一部分，我們再跟主計總處這邊來……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你們應該要去溝通，開始列出來，要讓地方政府知道未來這些統籌分配後，哪一些工作可能就直接變成是地方要做的事情。","所以我想跟召委說，我們今天從早上到現在，也討論了很多，事實上我們發現很多事情，它的答案還是一個不清晰的狀況，因為我的發言時間一直超過……"],["主席：我們就尊重鍾佳濱委員，如果他來了，沒來的話……"],["蔡委員易餘：不然等他來之後，我再繼續問。"],["主席：你可以登記第三輪發言，好嗎？"],["蔡委員易餘：那也要等鍾佳濱委員來。還是召委下一次再排審，我們繼續討論，好不好？"],["主席：好，我們一定會充分討論，不用擔心。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們這次討論到這裡，可是我們還需要很多的資料……"],["主席：什麼資料？"],["蔡委員易餘：就是之後的分配會變成怎樣，我們一定要搞清楚，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好的。"],["蔡委員易餘：召委，我們是不是保留未來還有討論的空間……"],["主席：會，我們可以把你的意見寫下來，等一下做結論。謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接著請登記第3號的鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","廣泛討論第二輪的發言，現在告一個段落。請問在場委員，第三輪討論還有沒有還要發表意見？在場委員說不需要第三輪討論。","從早上九點開會到現在，大概有幾個要點，我們做個結論，不足的地方，請在場委員再補充一下。第一個，剛剛蔡易餘委員也說了，希望你們趕快提出版本，在沒有提出版本的同時，我們下下週修法以前，你們要提出相關的說法，到底影響了什麼事情要寫清楚，讓委員了解。第二個，隨著財政收支劃分法的修訂，內政部的地方制度法，還有財政部的地方稅法通則、公債法的部分，很多委員都認為應該要一併修正，所以請相關部會，內政部今天也有來，趕快提出你們的修法版本，送到各個委員會，財政收支劃分法是牽頭，我們往前修，你們要趕快跟上，這樣才符合委員們的期待！第三個，早上蔡委員也提到這個修法可能牽涉到內政部、環境部以及農業部，所以我們下次修法的時候，請相關部會都要列席，如果部長沒有辦法列席，至少次長以上的層級要列席。做以上結論。","在場所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，還有沒有委員要提出意見？沒有意見的話，今天的廣泛討論到此告一個段落。為了充分讓委員可以表達更多的意見，我們原本安排是21、23、24三天一次會，現作如下決議：財政收支劃分法修正草案共22案，擇期繼續審查；變更財政委員會第三次全體委員會會議議程，我們會另外發通知單，意思就是大家今天已經討論得非常充分，也沒有委員再繼續登記，我們的廣泛討論就告一段落。星期四就進行金管會的議程，我們會再發一次通知單。","各部會還有沒有什麼意見要表示？蔡委員有意見嗎？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155865","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f00a7fd0a00ac7c059d42df3203622d4e3b576d54fd99389e1f8e961cba37a9f7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"17:17:11 - 17:28:41","影片長度":"00:11:30","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":113.989,"end":131.634,"text":"所以目前的指甲式跟縣市不一樣所以我們有一個修法原則就是說將來指甲式跟縣市希望能夠分配一致化以這個原則來講,所以市長既然你們有你的這個原則所以我就問你嘛"},{"start":133.744,"end":154.983,"text":"財政部,你們有沒有打算提出我們行政院、我們院版的這個財政收支劃分法?現在正在這個跟地方政府,因為這個是涉及到地方政府的財源嘛,所以我們現在就是一直在跟地方政府在開會、在研商。還在開會、還在研商,那你有沒有打算這麼做?"},{"start":156.865,"end":174.88,"text":"現在是這樣,我們是希望就是一套化嘛,就是指甲式跟縣市就一套化但是因為現在各縣市政府現在提的那個版本很多,那麼指標也很多,有80個那80個那我們現在開會一直一直給他收斂一直收斂,那現在已經收斂到已經比較小的範圍了啦"},{"start":176.221,"end":196.814,"text":"就是剩下比如說像這個權重的問題或者是說哪一些還有像防治污染要不要進去或者是說節省的這個稅出那部分要不要進去剩下這幾項所以我們會繼續努力來看看就是說水平這部分盡量能夠有那個所以也就是說我們會提出願板嘛對不對"},{"start":198.735,"end":227.955,"text":"目前我們來努力先把大家有一個共識我個人是這樣認為啦我是認為從中央地方我們這個預算的分配四個字啦知識體大既然知識體大我們要跟地方跟社會大眾說明這件事情就像國土計畫法一樣啊也是啊"},{"start":230.008,"end":240.314,"text":"國土計劃法營商幾十年下來,到現在就是在農地保護跟土地開發的這個之間有很多"},{"start":241.707,"end":244.448,"text":"對,我們希望是越修越好啦。"},{"start":271.377,"end":299.338,"text":"那所以我們是希望就是說我們財劃法因為涉及到中央跟地方的財源劃分嘛所以我們是希望能夠長治久安啦不要說一天到晚在炒這個問題所以我希望就是說相關的指標要非常的公平合理啦我們是希望這樣包括垂直的、包括水平的、包括事權的劃分都能夠講得更清楚大家可以接受那這樣子的話就比較好處理"},{"start":300.899,"end":317.265,"text":"目前現在是這樣,各縣市我們發現就是說,大家的距離還很大啦,還蠻大的啦,所以我們這一部分要耐心地慢慢地...要何止大,往同一個政黨,除非我剛才在螢幕上看錯,欸我記得!"},{"start":319.547,"end":332.143,"text":"國民黨版本大概就是應該高達五千八百億左右嘛就是要從我們中央市民都掏出來的齁但是我怎麼我怎麼那個"},{"start":336.312,"end":353.25,"text":"上午螢幕上看到的在跟你們對話他們好像降到3200億有這回事嗎?事實上我跟委員報告就是他後來降到雖然是3200億但事實上他是漏掉一個年久稅啦所以我們重新算了是4080啦"},{"start":354.762,"end":380.775,"text":"所以照他的說法是多少?4080那這個案子我認為當然啦不管是在野黨啦哪一黨都一樣我們尊重但是你要把這個可不可行要跟他們溝通不是這樣嗎?尤其我們這麼多預算到地方去這當然也是好喔地方自治嘛但是你相對"},{"start":381.835,"end":388.376,"text":"他們的一些法令也要跟著去做搭配、調整嘛。比如說地方制度法。"},{"start":389.905,"end":417.685,"text":"對預算、責任、配置是怎麼樣?他們也要開始去動起來不是這樣嗎?另外很重要一點就是說這樣出去以後對中央的施政的影響這部分也一定要好好去思考啦因為4000多億下出去以後我們中央可以運用的資金大概只剩下3600多億啦如果這樣子的話這個真的是影響到中央的施政真的非常嚴重"},{"start":418.886,"end":429.086,"text":"所以我才說要多溝通嘛我認為你們先前不管財政部也好主計處也罷我認為溝通不足耶"},{"start":431.46,"end":448.155,"text":"我們再繼續努力除了我們現在就是說除了就是把相關的資料我們就放在一個專區那另外讓外界清楚了解之外另外我們也希望就是說中央跟地方之間能夠有更多的機會大家再交換意見"},{"start":449.356,"end":464.199,"text":"過去地方收支的短處那是我們全國都關注那說實在事實上那時候確實我們地方這個收支短處確實是值得關注理解跟同情可是"},{"start":465.08,"end":481.602,"text":"我如果這個數字沒錯的話101年的時候地方收支短促了589億但是從105年開始4年後我們中央補助一直增加已經"},{"start":482.623,"end":494.436,"text":"有剩餘41億那甚至甚至到111年啊到去年剩餘更高達648億剩餘這麼多欸我們並不是說"},{"start":503.944,"end":518.313,"text":"主席長,你們要記得有幾個原則。第一點,中央不要抱著做之君、做之師這種過去古老的想法跟姿態啦。因為"},{"start":519.594,"end":529.556,"text":"即便中央權力比較大、能力比較強千萬也不要忘了大家都是從中央到地方都民選的"},{"start":531.274,"end":555.436,"text":"我們一切以民意為依歸所以跟地方應該是要多溝通要溝通像我剛剛講的那預算因為再來的重責大政如果這個調整那未來很多財源稅收由地方他們就直接收了所以這個地方"},{"start":557.177,"end":580.171,"text":"制度法這個要做事實的他們這一個部分要去多做理解跟調整的部分那以及第二點不要用這種對地方是施捨的心態啦我想這一次中央地方這樣有一點"},{"start":582.983,"end":608.479,"text":"這個槓上齁我覺得跟這些都有關係啦也就是說如果有良好的溝通如果互相的尊重我認為不至於這件事情這麼沒得談因為財政收支劃分法在怎麼講這些稅金在怎麼分配那麼都是為全體國人所用嘛"},{"start":610.319,"end":625.697,"text":"而這跟國土計劃法它所潛在的這種衝突是不一樣的我國土計劃法那個牽涉到的是那麼重大的土地劃分的利益"},{"start":627.323,"end":642.916,"text":"所以沒有所謂的孰是孰非誰一定對誰就一定錯那你們這個埋藏的這種衝突點那基本上是可以化解的所以我是希望說看到"},{"start":644.287,"end":665.42,"text":"財政部跟主計處,你們多拿出一些溝通的時間跟耐心,那多跟地方尤其多跟兩大在野黨跟他們去溝通,把可行性、不可行性都必須跟他們講清楚好不好?"},{"start":665.88,"end":689.438,"text":"但是今天這個他們一下降到3200億這個部分那你認為說這個照他的說法其實是事兼宜這個部分你們也要多溝通那也要多理解好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝王事兼委員我們看來謝謝次長看來不分男女都希望趕快提出版本財政部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1462,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（17時17分）謝謝主席。我請主計長跟財政部。"],["主席：請主計長跟阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：你們兩位辛苦了，我今天也一整天。我先請教主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：我們說地方預算，在分配方面我們有五大原則，包含：面積、人口、從事工業的人數、從事農漁牧業人口數及營利事業的家數，以這些原則來制訂。但是這五大原則之間，到底孰重孰輕？比例是怎麼樣？你們有研議，有結論了嗎？定案了嗎？比方說，人口或面積……"],["阮次長清華：我現在只能跟委員報告目前的權重，直轄市的話，人口是占20%、面積占20%，然後就是財政能力10%，另外一個是營利事業營業額50%，這個是直轄市的部分。另外就是縣市的部分，縣市的部分是彌補基準財政收支差短占85%，另外15%是營利事業所得，即營利事業的營業額，所以目前直轄市跟縣市不一樣。對此，我們有一個修法原則，希望直轄市跟縣市將來的分配能夠一致化。"],["王委員世堅：既然你們也擬了這個原則，請問財政部，你們有沒有打算提出行政院院版的財政收支劃分法？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個涉及地方政府的財源，所以我們現在一直在跟地方政府開會、研商……"],["王委員世堅：還在開會，還在研商？"],["阮次長清華：現在是說……"],["王委員世堅：有沒有打算這麼做？"],["阮次長清華：現在是這樣，我們希望直轄市跟縣市就是一套化；但是因為各縣市政府現在提出來的版本很多，指標也很多，有八十個，我們現在一直開會，一直在收斂，現在已經收斂到比較小的範圍，剩下的這幾項，比如權重的問題，還有防制污染要不要列進去？節省的歲出部分要不要列進去？我們會繼續努力來看看水平這部分儘量能夠有共同的看法。"],["王委員世堅：也就是說，我們會提出院版，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：目前我們來努力，先把大家……"],["王委員世堅：大概要多久？"],["阮次長清華：先讓大家有一個共識。"],["王委員世堅：我個人是這樣認為，中央、地方這個預算分配，就四個字─茲事體大！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員世堅：既然茲事體大，我們就要跟地方及社會大眾說明這件事情，就像國土計畫法也是一樣啊！國土計畫法研商幾十年下來，到現在農地保護跟土地開發之間，還是有很多的爭議跟衝突點，這個一定要處理。我想各黨各派都有不同的意見，但即便大家不同黨派，也會有相同的一些看法。既然茲事體大，我們政府對國土計畫法也是打算先暫停，這個不能執意、不能硬拗嘛！不是這樣嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對，我們希望越修越好，因為財劃法涉及中央跟地方的財源劃分，希望能夠長治久安，不要一天到晚吵這個問題。所以相關的指標要非常的公平合理，包括垂直的，包括水平的，包括事權的劃分，都能夠講得更清楚，大家都可以接受，這樣就比較好處理。我們發現目前大家的情況是這樣，各縣市的距離還滿大的，所以這部分還要耐心慢慢去……"],["王委員世堅：這何止大？光同一個政黨，除非我剛才在螢幕上看錯，我記得在野黨──國民黨的版本大概高達5,800億左右，這是要從中央這邊多掏出來的；但是上午我怎麼在螢幕上看到他們跟你們的對話，好像又降到3,200億，有這回事嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，他們後來雖然是三千兩百多億，事實上是他們漏掉了菸酒稅，所以我們重新算過是4,080。"],["王委員世堅：所以照他的說法是多少？"],["阮次長清華：4,080。"],["王委員世堅：對於這個案子，我認為不管是在野黨或哪一黨都一樣，我們尊重、尊重！但這個可不可行，你要跟他們溝通，不是這樣嗎？"],["阮次長清華：有在溝通。"],["王委員世堅：這麼多預算到地方去，這當然也是好喔，地方自治嘛！相對的，他們的一些法令也要跟著去搭配調整，比如地方制度法，針對這個預算，他的責任、配置是怎麼樣，他們也要去動起來，不是這樣嗎？"],["阮次長清華：另外很重要一點，就是這樣出去以後，對中央施政的影響，這部分也一定要好好去思考，因為四千多億下出去以後，中央可以運用的資金，大概只剩下三千六百多億，影響中央的施政真的非常嚴重。"],["王委員世堅：是，所以我才說要多溝通！先前不管財政部也好，主計處也罷，我都認為溝通不足！"],["阮次長清華：我們再繼續努力，現在除了把相關資料，放在一個專區，讓外界清楚了解之外，我們也希望中央跟地方之間能夠有更多的機會，大家再交換意見。"],["王委員世堅：過去地方收支短絀，我們全國都關注，說實在話，那時候地方收支短絀確實值得關注、理解跟同情；如果這個數字沒錯的話，101年的時候，地方收支短絀589億；可是從105年開始，也就是4年後，中央的補助就一直增加，已經有賸餘41億，甚至到111年、到去年賸餘更高達648億，賸餘這麼多！所以請次長、主計長記得幾個原則，第一點，中央不要抱著「作之君，作之師」過去這種古老的想法跟姿態，即便中央權力比較大，能力比較強，也千萬不要忘了，中央到地方，大家都民選的，一切以民意為依歸，跟地方應該是要多溝通、要溝通！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員世堅：就像我剛剛講的，再來的重責大任，預算如果有了這一個調整，未來很多財源稅收由地方直接收取，地方制度法在這一個部分，也要多去理解，要適時的調整。第二點，不要對地方持這種施捨的心態，這次中央跟地方會這樣槓上，我覺得跟這些都有關係。如果有良好的溝通，互相的尊重，我認為這件事情不至於這麼沒得談！因為財政收支劃分法再怎麼講，這些稅金要怎麼分配，都是為全體國人所用，跟國土計劃法潛在的這種衝突，是不一樣的，國土計劃法牽涉到的是重大的土地劃分利益。這裡沒有孰是孰非，誰一定對，誰就一定錯，這裡所埋藏的這種衝突點，基本上是可以化解的。本席希望財政部跟主計處多拿出一些溝通的時間跟耐心，多跟地方，尤其多跟兩大在野黨溝通，可行性跟不可行性都必須跟他們講清楚。好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["王委員世堅：今天他們一下降到3,200億這個部分，你認為照他的說法，其實是4,000億，你們也要多溝通，也要多理解。謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員，謝謝次長。看來委員不分藍綠，都希望財政部趕快提出版本，財政部要加油！委員跟我的想法一樣，我們不要有那種為之君、為之父的觀念，中央、地方是夥伴關係。","接著我們請登記第二輪第2位的蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f03e62e5a7e4719e1ad42df3203622d4e3b576d54fd99389e1f8da65bafe26660e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"16:58:28 - 17:05:36","影片長度":"00:07:08","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1450,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（16時58分）謝謝主席，現在是財政收支劃分法大體討論，我要先感謝主席，等了25年，等了25的財政收支劃分法，今天終於在財政委員會進入大體討論。在大體討論的時候，我覺得過去這段歷程當中，針對財政收支劃分法，我們的財政部用「拖」字訣欺騙社會，欺騙國會，這件事情，我覺得在大體討論的時候，要留下完整的紀錄。為什麼我這樣說？民進黨在野的時候，當時民主進步黨的主席蘇貞昌帶著民進黨所有執政的縣市長，開了一場什麼記者會啊？他說：「真抱歉，我們就是這麼窮。真抱歉，我們就是這麼窮。」為什麼會窮？過去累積這麼多年的研究早就清楚的凸顯出來了，我國在地方自治的時候，自有的財源偏低，支出的結構僵化，任何研究財政收支劃分法的學者，包括綠營學者在裡面，很清楚知道問題的關鍵在哪裡，所以大聲疾呼一定要修財政收支劃分法。蔡英文前總統2015年競選總統的時候，他的競選政見也說要修財政收支劃分法，現在的賴清德總統在2018年當行政院院長的時候，那個時候我人已經在財政委員會了，他也說要修財政收支劃分法。過去這幾年，我們一直在問一個相同的問題，民進黨從在野的時候喊要修財政收支劃分法，喊到全面執政，就要修財政收支劃分法，到現在已經2024年了，財政收支劃分法修法的版本到底在什麼地方？","從這屆的國會開始，我不斷請教我們的財政部部長莊部長，莊部長跟大家說的是什麼？持續地研議啊！蒐集他在財委會發言過的內容，財政收支劃分法，從五大原則到六大原則，講來講去，答應說什麼？要擴大財政規模，提升地方財政自主。我再說一次：要擴大財政規模，提升地方財政自主。每一次上來質詢問，財政部持續在研議。2012年在野的時候，民進黨自己就有黨團版，而2016年全面執政的時候做出了承諾，到現在2024年。之前在財政委員會質詢都說什麼？說：「我們持續研議。」從頭到尾都是騙局。我說從頭到尾都是騙局，當你們說研議的時候，就是沒有要修啦，用拖的、用混的。因為卓榮泰講了大實話，卓榮泰說現行的版本是最棒的版本，他說現行的版本是最棒的版本，跟12年前比，12年前的版本不就是今天的版本嗎？12年前的時候說什麼？非修不可。2016年的時候，當選的時候，說非修不可。2018年賴清德當行政院院長的時候，說一定要修。到2024年，在我們的財政部多年的研議，不斷地研議，持續地研議，研議到今天，終於現出原形了。現行的版本是最棒的版本，那過去這幾年政治人物對臺灣社會做的許諾是在講什麼？開空頭支票，騙選票。在國會說什麼？「我們持續地研議」，有五大原則，有六大原則，研議到最後，卓榮泰現出原形了嘛，說現行的版本是最棒的版本，為什麼說現行的版本是最棒的版本？因為現行的版本讓中央政府把錢全部握在手上，看我要怎麼分配嘛，看你們地方政府聽不聽話嘛，配不配合嘛，由我完全決定錢要怎麼分配嘛，這不正是過去12年前在野的時候，還有理想的民主進步黨痛批的財政收支劃分法嗎？我覺得這段歷程一定要清楚地記錄下來。","接下來，我相信，雖然我聽到今天很多，不管是民主進步黨的委員，還是在野黨的委員，大家的高見，接下來修法的時候，都是重要的參考依據。我也聽到很多委員呼籲財政部要趕快提出版本，但我的判斷是，財政部不會提出任何版本，它不會提出任何版本，因為卓榮泰就講了，現行的版本是最棒的版本，而現行的版本是25年前的版本，它如果真的是最棒的版本，過去這二、三十年，為什麼大家都在疾呼要修財政收支劃分法？我希望我們的召委扛得住壓力！延宕了25年的財政收支劃分法，希望可以在這個會期順利地完成整個修法的歷程。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員，我們金門人是不畏懼任何壓力的。想做的團隊找方法，不想做的團隊找理由，財政部要加油啊，趕快提出版本，好嗎？謝謝。","接著，我們請顏寬恒委員。顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在。","接著，我們請鍾佳濱委員。鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","好，各位同仁。我們第一輪的廣泛討論，所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，那我們接下來進行第二輪的廣泛討論。","我們可不可以先給大家休息10分鐘來登記好嗎？登記完以後，我們就繼續第二輪的廣泛討論，謝謝。","休息（17時6分）","繼續開會（17時16分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f06e8278d6845ead34d42df3203622d4e3b576d54fd99389e1070cd130e3b79eff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"16:28:24 - 16:40:51","影片長度":"00:12:27","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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對不對?統計分配稅款是你們分配的補助收入也是你們分配的台北市就861億啊你高雄市明年就達到1200多億啊"},{"start":571.346,"end":587.913,"text":"自水預算台北市184億前瞻台北市自水預算184億高雄1200億這是前瞻的自水預算114年中央補助的收入台北市861億高雄市又1200多億是怎樣啦"},{"start":594.045,"end":598.667,"text":"當我們台北市當世海嗎?所以這就是為什麼我們收財劃分法為什麼如此迫切錢都轉在你們手上你愛給誰就給誰你喜歡給誰多一點就多一點"},{"start":608.188,"end":634.383,"text":"這就是為什麼要修財劃法所以這就是為什麼財政部遲遲不願意提出版本啊行政院不願意嘛啊主計處反正放在手裡面啊噢這個是是是跟我顏色一樣啊我比較喜歡他補助就多一點然後這個我不喜歡他我就少一些我還沒有去跟你去比桃園跟台中勒是不是"},{"start":636.626,"end":658.505,"text":"這些數字不是只有114年從之前我剛才講這些數字連從111年開始你們就不公平了一直不公平到現在然後每天對外講說我的補助很多大家不要吵我會給你們糖吃那為什麼有人吃的多有人吃的少呢"},{"start":659.417,"end":671.982,"text":"你也沒有辦法告訴我啊為什麼114年他們的差距高雄跟台北的差距可以增加到一倍之多呢?主席長我知道你剛剛來啊我現在能把這個理由說因為主席長的關係嗎?其實我也不認為是你的關係啦那是賴總統的關係嗎?"},{"start":681.812,"end":700.128,"text":"所以在這邊第一個我要特別的幫我們其他的縣市包括我們台北市你的那個補助款也好或者是我們益住財源的稅數比例也好台北市長期的敬佩莫做對台北市不公平"},{"start":701.209,"end":719.755,"text":"第2個,財化法的修正有它的正當性及必要性。否則的話,我們就年復一年的發生這樣的狀況啊,是不是?然後你們挨補助誰就補助誰,最後其結果就是這樣的不平均,這樣的不公平啦。"},{"start":720.515,"end":736.262,"text":"好不好甚至我覺得114年我剛講我們今天才划法修正就算我們這個會期完全修正114年度還是你們還是手在那個錢在你們手上但是拜託你們不要這樣的分配不均謝謝好謝謝王洪威委員謝謝主席長那個因為我們現在是時間是16點40"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1337,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（16時28分）謝謝召委，召委辛苦了，我先請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：請教一下主計長，因為您長期都在主計處，所以對預算執行非常的清楚，我想請問一下，我們現在來討論財劃法的修正，會不會造成明年度預算執行的問題？跟明年的預算執行有沒有相關？我們現在討論財劃法的修正跟明年度的預算執行有沒有相關？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要看它什麼時候生效、執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，但是基本上你們的預算已經通過了嘛，對不對？也送到立法院了，所以今天我們即便是這個會期完成財劃法的修正，會影響到明年度嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果說你要用114年度決算的時機去算的話，那就會有影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我就說明年度的執行。"],["陳主計長淑姿：明年度的執行原則上是不會啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：不會嘛，對不對？明年度執行預算不會嘛，最快最快也是影響到115年度，對不對？這個部分我們必須釐清，因為今天早上一大堆之前也沒有在關心財劃法，可能預算也看不懂的委員，在這邊東講西講，好像今天財劃法的修正或通過，立刻影響114年度，我覺得這是有很大的謬誤。","好，我想請教一下，今天早上我也特別提到，我們賴總統說，明年度也就是114年度，我們的補助款會增加八百多億。那麼我想請問一下，以六都來說，整個補助款，哪一個縣市補助的金額最多？好，你們現在才在做功課，來，我們可以看一下預算數，以中央補助來看，臺北市是六都最少的那一個部分，可以看到除了統籌分配稅款之外，很重要的就是來自於中央的補助款，以114年度的預算案來說，臺北是163億，然後高雄是708億，新北是603億，桃園是502億，臺中是530億，臺南是515億，所以從這邊非常明顯可以看到，在補助收入的部分，即使明年度說中央補助會增加很多很多，沒有問題，但是可以看到光是在補助收入的部分，臺北市仍然是吊車尾，是最後一名，而且如果我們看統籌款加補助款，倒數第二的那個項目，就是D等於B加C的部分，可以看到高雄市統籌加補助款明年的金額高達1,229億元，而臺北市的部分呢？861.05億，這中間差了370億元。我要特別講，中央的補助收入，臺北市是六都中最少的，我今天早上就特別講到，為什麼要修財劃法？因為不修財劃法，我們的中央掌握了75%的財源，然後說：「沒有問題，我是老大哥，我來補助各縣市。」可是當你在補助的時候，這就出現了不患寡而患不均的問題，不平均嘛，或者是有些縣市永遠拿得很多。來，我們再來看下一頁，我剛剛講的是114年度，如果我們看各年度高雄市跟臺北市的相比，你就會覺得不可思議，在挹注財源上，以中央的補助款來說，到了114年，臺北市跟高雄市的補助款差了545億，但是之前包含111年度、112年度、113年度，111年度和112年度都是兩百多億，但是到了113年，就擴大成384億，到了114年又擴大成545億，我想請問一下，明年發生什麼樣的事情？明年到底發生什麼樣的事情，讓臺北市跟高雄市之間的差距越來越高、越來越多？主計長，你們對外說補助會增加很多，但是為什麼臺北市跟高雄市差距這麼多？什麼道理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，其實臺北市如果說用統籌分配稅款和一般性補助，臺北市114年得到845億，高雄市得到697億，但是你不能以補助收入占歲出的規模比例來分配，因為像臺北市的歲出規模很大，相對地一般補助下面的比例就會減少，所以以總額來看，最多的是臺北市啊。然後高雄市……"],["王委員鴻薇：總額最多怎麼會是臺北市？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果114年……"],["王委員鴻薇：統籌加補助款，我剛才告訴你啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：高雄高達一千兩百多億……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，那是加計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們臺北市861億……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，有三種補助嘛，一種是統籌分配稅，一種……"],["王委員鴻薇：統籌分配稅是他自己的自有財源嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。再來是一般性補助，再來就是計畫型，那計畫型是各部會看計畫的可行性去核定，這個並不是，它是屬於競爭型的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以高雄市的可行性就比較高，臺北市可行性就比較低嗎？你現在是要告訴我這些嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這我沒辦法告訴你，因為這……"],["王委員鴻薇：你沒辦法告訴我，對啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是各部會用競爭型去核定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們就不公平啊！你怎麼告訴我呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是各部會核定的，這不是我們核定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我告訴你的是，這個都有數字、有真相。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是它還有計畫型的，還有按財力去分配，譬如說計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：在排序的部分……"],["陳主計長淑姿：財力第一的話，可能只補助百分之多少，計畫型補助的比例也是不一樣的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你可以告訴我，臺北市的財務能力比高雄市高。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那請問一下，高雄市沒有比桃園高嗎？高雄市沒有比臺中高嗎？可是高雄永遠永遠永遠，不管在比例上，都是名列前茅，不是第一，就是第二，在補助金額上，永遠是第一或第二。因為我是臺北市的立委，我當然要幫我們臺北市講話，差那麼多嘛。我請問你，為什麼111年差了257億，114年差到545億？發生什麼事情？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這一個主要是在計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：到底發生什麼事情？我們說財政能力，臺北市財政能力確實是比較高，那請問一下，為什麼差到將近一倍之多呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我主要是……"],["王委員鴻薇：是看蔣萬安不順眼嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個差別主要在計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：還是看陳其邁特別順眼呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為一般性的補助明明是臺北市比高雄市還要多，統籌分配稅和一般性補助兩個彙整起來，臺北市比高雄市還要多……"],["王委員鴻薇：你怎麼睜眼說瞎話？來，回到臺北市六都最少的部分，我們要給你看B加C啊，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為你自己……"],["王委員鴻薇：統籌分配稅款是你們分配的，補助收入也是你們分配的，臺北市就861億啊，高雄市明年就達到一千兩百多億。再說治水預算，臺北市184億，在前瞻特別預算裡，臺北市治水預算184億，高雄1,200億，這是前瞻的治水預算。114年中央補助的收入，臺北市861億，高雄市也有一千兩百多億，是怎樣啦？把我們臺北市當「細漢」嗎？所以這就是為什麼我們修財劃法如此迫切，錢都攥在你們手上，你要給誰就給誰，你喜歡給誰多一點就多一點，這就是為什麼要修財劃法。所以這就是為什麼財政部遲遲不願意提出版本啊！行政院不願意嘛！主計處反正放在手裡面啊！這個是跟我顏色一樣的，我比較喜歡他，補助就多一點，然後這個我不喜歡他，我就少一些。我還沒有跟你去比桃園跟臺中咧，是不是？這些數字不是只有114年，我剛才講的這些數字，連從111年開始你們就不公平了，一直不公平到現在，然後每天對外說：「我的補助很多，大家不要吵，我會給你們糖吃。」那為什麼有人吃得多，有人吃得少呢？你有沒有辦法告訴我，為什麼114年高雄跟臺北的差距可以增加到一倍之多呢？主計長，我知道你剛剛來，我先把這個理由說出來，是因為主計長的關係嗎？其實我也不認為是你的關係啦，那是賴總統的關係嗎？所以在這邊，第一個，我要特別幫我們其他的縣市，包含我們臺北市，你的那個補助款也好，或者是我們挹注財源的稅收比例也好，臺北市長期敬陪末座，對臺北市不公平。","第二個，財劃法的修正有它的正當性及必要性，否則的話，我們就年復一年地發生這樣的狀況，是不是？然後你們愛補助誰就補助誰，最後其結果就是這樣的不平均，這樣不公平啦，好不好？甚至我覺得，就像我剛剛講的，今天財劃法修正，就算我們這個會期完成修正，114年度錢還是在你們手上，但是拜託你們不要這樣分配不均。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員。謝謝主計長。","現在的時間是16時40分，下面還有好多委員，剛剛有委員提出要第二輪發言，現在我們有兩位委員，徵求在場委員同意，我們就延長開會，繼續開會，延長開會時間，讓大家講完，有沒有意見？沒有意見。好，那我們就延長開會時間，等一下要準備便當，說不定還要準備消夜。","請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155862","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155862","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0d61ab42c2c24acebd42df3203622d4e3c6fec705aa549b010256b6ee961e078f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"16:10:54 - 16:23:06","影片長度":"00:12:12","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T16:10:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T16:23:06+08:00","duration":732,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.88221875,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.56534375,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.67909375,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.141593750000006,"end":58.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.485968750000005,"end":68.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.22284375000001,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.41534375,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.64846875,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.60596875,"end":129.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.85034375,"end":134.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.50346875,"end":137.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.81534375,"end":144.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.40909375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.42284375,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.49784375000002,"end":175.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.66596875000002,"end":180.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.77909375000002,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.99659375000002,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.49284375000002,"end":204.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.74159375000002,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.77034375000002,"end":209.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.97284375,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.38596875000002,"end":217.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.16159375,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.54409375,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.42971875,"end":232.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.63596875000002,"end":232.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.95659375000002,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.28346875000003,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.31159375000004,"end":261.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.52596875,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.01284375,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.71284375000005,"end":310.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.20159375000003,"end":313.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.32784375,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.38096875,"end":330.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.12284375,"end":331.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.97471875,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.63846875,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.20659375,"end":368.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.47659375,"end":361.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.86346875000004,"end":375.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.60096875000005,"end":376.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.75284375,"end":377.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.35596875000005,"end":381.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.11909375000005,"end":390.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.44659375000003,"end":393.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.45034375,"end":399.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.44096875,"end":407.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.09409375,"end":406.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.17409375000005,"end":407.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.76471875000004,"end":410.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.16096875000005,"end":410.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.41409375,"end":410.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.43096875000003,"end":461.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.46471875000003,"end":410.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.04159375,"end":419.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.58096875,"end":423.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.79159375,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.73096875000005,"end":462.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.40159375,"end":477.98159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.01096875,"end":485.693468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持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容報告委員剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的"},{"start":613.873,"end":636.141,"text":"但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話"},{"start":637.001,"end":661.693,"text":"這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的"},{"start":662.333,"end":690.196,"text":"所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天"},{"start":691.577,"end":703.821,"text":"雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的章委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎"},{"start":714.144,"end":719.648,"text":"我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1297,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（16時10分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請次長？"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：次長好。我想這幾天包括上個會期，我們委員會都討論非常多，財劃法其實已經隔了25年沒有修，包括剛才你們回應說，這個擺不平。從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財劃法到這個會期你們還送不出來的幾大理由，我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論。就因為擺不平，所以該做的事情都不做嗎？在我看來，這叫做行政的怠惰。沒有一件事情是容易的，每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢，大家都要，大家都有一套自己的說法，但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛，對不對？你說因為擺不平，所以沒辦法做就不做，我覺得這個就是行政怠惰。在我看來，其實處理政務、處理事務，無論是中央或地方行政首長，沒有一件事情是容易的，但是選出來之後，就要完全的負起行政責任、政治責任，這就是一個政府應該要有的功能。","在這一次的討論當中，我從媒體上看到，你們暗酸立法院的修法叫做「倉促修法」，說應該要凝聚共識之後再審慎推動，但是我要提的是，財劃法的修法難道真的只是一朝一夕之間的問題嗎？恐怕不是。因為從賴清德過去自己在當臺南市市長，還包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長，從過去的鄭文燦，臺南的代理市長李孟諺，還有林佳龍、潘孟安等等，其實在早期，甚至在民進黨過去執政的8年，今年邁入第9年，都曾經提出財劃法應該要修了。到今天為止，我要請問財政部，今天坐在底下的除了政務官之外，事務官坐在這邊這麼久了，難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來？到今天為止，還送不出一個版本，還送不出一個基本架構來嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我想財劃法從民國88年迄今，我們送了5次修正案到大院，為什麼沒辦法獲致共識，為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法？就是因為各個地方政府大家都有自己的立場，所以很難整合，但是即使是這樣，財政部最近也一直邀請地方政府在溝通，希望能夠把相關的歧見縮小。所以，一開始的時候，原來地方政府提了80個指標，經過兩次會議慢慢、慢慢地把它收斂以後，我們現在只剩下幾個，比如像權重的問題，或是像污染防治的問題，或者是再生能源，或是說歲出的節儉要不要納進來，除了這幾個之外，其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了，有共識……"],["李委員彥秀：那還需要多少時間嘛？"],["阮次長清華：所以我們現在就是這樣，就是說最難的，後面最難的……"],["李委員彥秀：說不定你送出來之後，我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通，但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊！"],["阮次長清華：最重要的就是，我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦，要各退一步，比如說像權重的問題，有些縣市比如說像它的……"],["李委員彥秀：次長，因為我今天時間其實也不多，我必須要提醒你，你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾，或藉這個機會告訴所有的縣市首長，我們現在還有差幾個指標還沒有共識，希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通，我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式，有機會大家有一個最大的公約數來做溝通跟努力，但是關鍵是你到今天為止，這個會期版本送不送得出來？"],["阮次長清華：如果大家都願意退讓一步的話，其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成。但是我是覺得很多事情，很多事情講到要分錢的時候，很多人就會有很多的意見，我們過去的經驗是這樣，不是我們不努力……"],["李委員彥秀：當然都是，這部法涉及各縣市未來的財政規劃、市政的規劃，還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型，還有淨零排碳等等，地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多。你們這一次講出來的幾個理由，一個是擺不平，或者是你們覺得應該就地方制度法裡面，地方政府要負責的項目……"],["阮次長清華：相關事權的問題也要一起討論，對。"],["李委員彥秀：討論得更完整之後，我們再來討論財劃法的修正，但是次長，我要提醒你，地方制度法當中由地方負責的工作事項，其實每一年都有在滾動，內政部主管的地方制度法只有規範一些基本的大項目，但是各部會跟地方之間大家的分工，早就已經討論得很完整。除非是突發狀況，譬如說兒少法上個會期有修法，我們有重新對一些中央跟地方的事情再加強分工之外，其實具體的項目中央跟地方的權責怎麼樣劃分，本來早就已經編在各部會裡面。所以我不清楚，你說我們要等地制法整理討論的更完整之後，我們再來討論這個經費的劃分，現在地方要負責的項目，其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼，中央要負責什麼，不需要再修地制法。如果現在才要來修地制法，那過去中央事權跟地方事權怎麼樣分配？我沒有講錯嘛。"],["阮次長清華：所以我跟委員報告，這也是問題的關鍵，為什麼呢？因為就是目前提出來的這些版本，只處理了釋出財源這一部分，只有垂直分配那一塊，至於水平分配那部分都沒有處理，都沒有處理的話，你釋出去的那個錢到底要做什麼呢？要講清楚啊，所以也會涉及事權分配的問題，因此這個跟地方溝通會比較有難處……"],["李委員彥秀：要怎麼樣做事權的分配，中央跟地方其實都已經有一個……未來是從人口、從面積、從有一些偏鄉的，它可能老人比較多，出生率……"],["阮次長清華：這些都有共識了。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來討論……"],["阮次長清華：對，那些都有共識了。"],["李委員彥秀：關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體化提出來，沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法，所以我必須要再提醒你，我覺得就整個中央與地方權限跟財政的分配，不要讓外界只有批評你們是集權又集錢，我覺得地方首長，不管是藍綠執政的縣市，最清楚知道市政規劃的優先順序，他要怎麼樣來用是最好。過去的情況，我不去講哪一個縣市，因為我們批評到人家縣市也不好，外界看到很多地方拿中央的補助卻產生很多的蚊子館，很多的蚊子建設……"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是如果你把有限的錢撥給地方，讓他自己決定他接下來這四年、八年，他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西，他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好，他要把托兒所、托嬰中心闢建得更完整、更足夠，他知道哪些是地方的優先順序需要的，就會減少所謂蚊子建設的產生，這是過去的問題。所以我個人還是認為，地方的統籌分配款應該還是要，就是垂直分配的部分應該儘速的重新調整，至於地方的，我覺得在野黨都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通，我們也有提出來我們的版本。今天在野黨這麼多的委員，我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法，我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本，其實應該有機會去凝聚一些最大的公約數出來。否則財劃法從過去25年以來討論到現在，都沒有往前進一步，民進黨執政也邁入第9年了，我們還是希望有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本。否則的話，就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的，你們覺得不妥當、不妥善，然後到最後又要再來搞一次覆議，然後再搞一次釋憲，這個我覺得是勞民傷財。","所以第一個，我還是認為要想辦法擴大財源，保障現有的權益，然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制，未來怎麼樣去分配。另外，我更認為，營業稅應該要百分之百回歸地方，我們應該要想辦法把餅做大，擴大釋出給地方的財源規模，然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力。另外，臺北市的部分，我的建議是臺北市仍舊是一個首善之都，所以未來的基礎建設，包括一些大型公共建設的擘劃，我們希望臺北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力，所以在臺北市的部分，它應該要有相關的一些首都的加給，所以這一塊，比例這個部分，我們希望還是能夠維持。我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的方向裡面，可以看得到這些內容。"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，剛才委員大部分的意見，其實跟財政部修法的方向、原則是一致的，但是有一些版本，比如說像國民黨的版本經我們試算的結果，有8個縣市分配的其實比它的歲出還要超過百分之百，有超過百分之百這種狀況。另外就是假定對特定的都會區有額外分配的話，這個跟我們財劃法的修正原則有點不一致，因為我們考慮到的是什麼？是全國劃一的，這是劃一的公式；然後財劃法的目的是為了彌補收支差短。據我了解，目前臺北市的財政狀況在全國各縣市當中是最好的，如果再加上3%的話，是不是會造成外界的一些議論？這個可能還是要再斟酌啦。"],["李委員彥秀：在現有的機制底下，怎麼樣重新納入一些重要的指標，我們再討論，它或許不是叫首都加給，但是用什麼樣的、具體的指標，我們再拿進來討論……"],["阮次長清華：大家一起來努力啦。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來……"],["阮次長清華：大家一起來努力啦。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得大家都可以具體討論，現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本，所以我們講了老半天雞同鴨講。我們還是期待政次這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來，用哪些指標，大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做，我們才有辦法聚焦……"],["阮次長清華：我們已經在……"],["李委員彥秀：否則浪費了4年在這邊，每個會期國民黨的召委排了財劃法卻沒有具體的結果，民進黨也討論了這麼多年，沒有具體的版本不是白討論的嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們也在努力了，已經在努力地跟地方政府溝通，希望大家能夠達成共識。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員，謝謝阮次長，儘快地提出財政部版本，謝謝。","我們休息5分鐘，讓大家休息一下，5分鐘後繼續開會，謝謝。","休息（16時23分）","繼續開會（16時28分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接著我們請吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員、吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員不在。","接著我們請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f02bd84ca37105f008d42df3203622d4e3c6fec705aa549b0112bc3142334557935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"15:59:10 - 16:10:44","影片長度":"00:11:34","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T15:59:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T16:10:44+08:00","duration":694,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.42534375,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.03659375,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.81221875,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.59159375,"end":37.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.20221875,"end":42.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.893468750000004,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.53846875,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.35659375,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.65159375,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.836593750000006,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.523468750000006,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.33721875,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.44596875,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.91409375,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.70221875,"end":80.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.92471875000001,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.13096875000001,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.66596875,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.24784375,"end":102.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.79596875,"end":100.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.78721875000001,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.23846875000001,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.28846875,"end":108.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":120.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.74721875,"end":116.26596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.42159375000001,"end":122.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.88534375,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.21846875000001,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.05784375,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.85034375,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.37284375000002,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.29659375,"end":136.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.38096875000002,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.49034375000002,"end":142.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.34221875,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.27409375000002,"end":146.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.99971875,"end":146.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.13471875000002,"end":146.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.26971875,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.96159375000002,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.99534375000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.31909375,"end":161.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.27659375000002,"end":163.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.18721875,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.32221875000002,"end":161.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.97159375,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.26159375,"end":171.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.37971875000002,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.28971875000002,"end":184.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.65221875,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.41534375,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.65534375000001,"end":208.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.45159375,"end":198.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.66596875000002,"end":202.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.69971875000002,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.75034375,"end":203.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.94346875000002,"end":235.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.14284375000003,"end":229.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.32846875,"end":229.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.36221875,"end":229.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.58909375000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","st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03.196,"text":"接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本"},{"start":404.532,"end":423.548,"text":"這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同"},{"start":424.625,"end":442.915,"text":"我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分"},{"start":444.085,"end":470.138,"text":"獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二"},{"start":471.741,"end":476.459,"text":"相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且"},{"start":477.406,"end":502.265,"text":"只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的"},{"start":502.745,"end":528.692,"text":"是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完"},{"start":529.392,"end":555.806,"text":"第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的"},{"start":556.266,"end":567.421,"text":"第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的"},{"start":568.578,"end":596.023,"text":"因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了"},{"start":596.683,"end":612.478,"text":"所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不能做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告"},{"start":613.098,"end":629.449,"text":"我們現在雖然是3兆、3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個"},{"start":630.309,"end":657.092,"text":"所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三,第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府"},{"start":657.873,"end":681.966,"text":"只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法"},{"start":683.957,"end":684.117,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1232,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（15時59分）謝謝主席，請次長和陳主計長。"],["主席：請阮次長、陳主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：首先謝謝主席。今天我們開了一整天的會，聽了各個委員發表意見，當然，剛剛也聽到次長說了很多，其實這樣一整天下來，包括從上個會期提案到現在，我們都在給財政部時間和地方政府溝通，我們也在等你們的版本，看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本，禮拜三逐條審查的時候，你們依然沒有版本。","主計長，本席想問你一下，你從臺南市來，曾經說過財政收支劃分法有必要修，現在你認為不用修了嗎？當了主計長，有沒有換腦袋？"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是90年的時候，臺南市的負債是92.36%，我們必須在3年內降到45%……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以當時你希望修。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那時候薪水發不出來，公務人員的旅費等相關費用通通刪減，還是一樣沒辦法解決。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果今天你還是地方首長，你會主張修還是不修？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是現在都改善了。現在縣市賸餘六百多億元，所以現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你認為這樣就不用修了，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以目前的狀況來說，原則上大部分縣市都有滿足。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。次長，你的邏輯就是有改善了，所以不用修，是嗎？財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由囉！"],["阮次長清華：我們從來沒有說因為改善了，所以就不用修。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以本席今天聽了一整天……"],["阮次長清華：因為我們修法的其中一個原則，我剛才也報告過，其中一個原則就是擴大……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，先讓本席問完問題，然後你再說明好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你今天說到國民黨提出的四千多億元，那民眾黨的二千多億元呢？你覺得合不合理？"],["阮次長清華：這個還是要看中央的資源夠不夠。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政部認為多少是合理的？"],["阮次長清華：我們很難認定要多少，但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你今天說了一整天4,000億元不合理，請你告訴本席多少才是合理的？"],["阮次長清華：我的意思是說，我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：關於垂直分配，請你告訴本席多少是合理的，是財政部可以接受，願意放下垂直分配的門檻？"],["阮次長清華：我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題，因為這個東西最主要……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們討論一整年也沒有任何答案。次長，你只要回答本席的問題，你認為多少是合理的？沒有答案？"],["阮次長清華：最主要是我們和地方政府的水平分配，這個部分還沒有共識，所以……"],["黃委員珊珊：本席現在問你的是垂直分配，你認為多少是合理的，中央政府的運作不會受影響？是1,000億元、2,000億元，還是3,000億元？因為你說4,000億元會有影響。"],["阮次長清華：因為這個我們要盤點對中央的……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，不要在這邊鬼打牆。第一，先把垂直分配定下來，如果金額多了，再來討論水平分配的公式，這才是制定財政收支劃分法最好的方法，否則你們每天用水平分配來搪塞，本席覺得非常不負責任。也就是說，如果你們認為4,000億元不行，那你們認為多少可以？不管增加2,000億或3,000億元，水平分配就以你們現在認為最好的分配方式處理，它是可以拿出來討論的。","可是你們現在的問題是，第一，你們不和我們討論垂直分配；第二，你們一直拿水平分配出來鬼扯。本席覺得財政部從我們提案到現在，都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本，或者是你們的立場，這一點本席覺得非常不負責任，從部長到院長，到你今天的回答都一樣。請你告訴本席，你認為多少是合理的？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在修法就是一個原則，有包括擴大釋出規模。我們為什麼沒辦法……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你現在還是沒有答案？好，那我們就來看看吧！什麼叫合不合理？請你看一下各縣市的自籌財源，臺北市要57%，六都平均大概是50%，但是其他縣市從23%到27%，你覺得這樣合理？為什麼要修法？第一個，地方政府沒有穩定、確定的收入，沒有辦法做長遠規劃，相關的事情要看老闆心情，也就是財政部或者主計總處要給多少，由他們決定，費時費力還不一定有，要用功讀書才會有獎品。","最嚴重的是，人均分配顯然不夠，比較嚴重的是這個問題。請各位看一下，各個縣市都在蓋社宅，其實他們根本就沒有錢蓋，所以中央可以蓋到5萬4,000戶，臺北市的財政比較好，可以蓋到2萬戶，但新北市以下的都是1,000戶。當我們把所有的錢、權都集中在中央的時候，就會產生地方蓋社宅、舊校舍要自己想辦法的問題，因為沒辦法做，所以全部變成由中央蓋社宅，這違反地方自治的精神，也違反財政收支的相關規範，因為它全部放在地方，而且地方政府自己也在蓋，所以變成中央、地方兩種不同的制度。次長，你知道這個狀況嗎？"],["阮次長清華：了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個錢還是要集中在中央，由中央來蓋，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：不是。我的意思是說，為什麼剛才委員說要釋出多少規模？因為這個涉……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為你沒有答案嘛！如果你沒有答案就不要再扯了，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好的。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來就是修法時間，這不是我們說的，是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取，希望修財劃法。2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建銘也主張要列為優先法案，讓非六都的縣市可以翻轉，這句話不是本席說的，是執政者說的。次長，那個時候您在財政部嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對，在財政部，但是我沒有負責這個業務。"],["黃委員珊珊：你都在財政部，這些你都經歷過吧？"],["阮次長清華：那時候我沒有負責這個業務。"],["黃委員珊珊：你沒有負責這個業務，但是這些事情財政部都經歷過。看到這麼多人說了這麼多話，賴清德總統在2012年，也就是主計長還在臺南市政府工作的時候，在賴總統擔任臺南市長的任內，他要求中央要修法。同樣的，2017年的賴清德院長說要提出財劃法的行政院版本，這些都是他們說的，但是他們現在都說沒有版本，現在的辦法就是最好的辦法。","這件事情是一個制度問題，本席不希望像主計長一樣，在臺南市當局長和到中央當主計長，態度有這麼大的不同。本席希望將來訂出一個制度性的規範，權力的魔戒要拿下來，這個權力不應該是誰執政，誰就繼續戴著，不願意下放權力。所以問題不在水平分配，問題是垂直分配，你們願意拿多少出來分？分了以後，再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配方法變成法律規範，而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志處理。","所以本席的答案很簡單，當垂直分配確定了，水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下一定會有共識，什麼原則？第一，不低於現在的水準；第二，把相關的垂直分配金額明確入法，而且只要金額增加，本席相信不會有任何縣市告訴你，他們不接受，當錢增加了，每一個縣市都不低於現在分配的比例。本席相信你們所說的水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的。次長，對吧？"],["阮次長清華：事實上，我們現在修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向，和委員的意思是一樣的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。所以為什麼定不出你們的版本，本席實在覺得匪夷所思。第一個，對於垂直分配，我們沒有定見，你們可以提出來，大家一起討論。第二個，對於水平分配，我們的態度很簡單，我們估算的2,700億元是這5年來的平均歲計賸餘，也就是說，動二千多億元不會動到中央政府的骨幹，也不會影響到中央政府的預算執行，因為你們根本就花不完。","第二個，相關的分配，如果多了2,700億元，這2,700億元按照相關的公式或比例讓所有縣市分配，不會有任何縣市比現在少，本席不相信會有任何縣市告訴你們，他們不接受。現在的問題是財政部不願意面對，財政部用水平分配、地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院，這個態度是非常、非常惡劣的。","第二個，這個態度讓現在的院長抱著權力魔戒，然後告訴全臺灣的人，你們不修！你們就是不修！這件事情是很丟臉的，因為剛剛說過，這是你們民進黨執政時要求修的，所以次長，你不要再告訴本席水平分配擺不平。請你現在告訴本席，對於垂直分配，你們的想法還是不願意再修正嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這個真的要去審視對中央施政的影響啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以2,700億元，你們同不同意？可能接受嗎？"],["阮次長清華：因為釋出2,700億元的話，現在我們很多施政都沒辦法做了，會有這個問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以什麼事情沒辦法做？我們明年的預算已經增加到3兆元，你卻告訴本席，少了二千多億元沒辦法做事。"],["阮次長清華：但是我們雖然是3兆元……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們增加了這麼多預算，你們每年剩下二千多億元，現在卻告訴本席，你們不能做事，這不是很好笑嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在雖然是3.1兆元，但是裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆元，所以扣掉以後，我們只……"],["黃委員珊珊：本席同意。所以重點是，如果不行，請你告訴本席，多少可以做？例如1,200億元可以做，好啊！請你們說出來嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我想大家都可以思考這個問題嘛！"],["黃委員珊珊：不是思考，是要拿出來討論，星期三就要逐條審查了，關於垂直分配，星期三一定會做初步討論。第二個，這個案子一定會出委員會，我不希望財政部或行政院，又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論，或討論沒有結論的部分，拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政，又再拿去提出覆議，又再去提出釋憲。一個不負責任的政府，只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求，我覺得這一點是會讓人家不齒的。所以財政部，不要再說你們沒有版本了，你們的版本醜媳婦還是必須要見公婆。星期三開始的逐條審查，我相信，在委員會我們會聽你們的意見，我也希望你們，把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來，我們幫你們立法。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。大家都殷殷期盼財政部提出版本，我們再次請求儘快、儘快，謝謝。","接著我們請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f047d9ba3e551ae8f3d42df3203622d4e3c6fec705aa549b01905bac7a4a0966cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"15:45:21 - 15:58:36","影片長度":"00:13:15","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T15:45:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T15:58:36+08:00","duration":795,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":3.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.00909375,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.86096875,"end":8.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":9.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.67034375,"end":12.923468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.344718750000002,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.40784375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.42471875,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.141593750000002,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.52096875,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.80659375,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.21909375,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.00784375,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.10846875,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.43721875,"end":47.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.517218750000005,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.98284375,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.03346875,"end":65.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.18534375,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.50596875000001,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.56909375000001,"end":66.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.60284375,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.68284375,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.91909375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.44221875000001,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.42846875000001,"end":77.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.26784375000001,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.34346875,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.47784375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.11034375,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.87784375000001,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.67909375,"end":99.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.36971875,"end":101.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.52971875,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.26721875000001,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.95471875000001,"end":112.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.94159375000001,"end":112.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.99221875,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.04284375,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.15221875,"end":116.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.21096875,"end":119.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.60721875,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.43784375000001,"end":137.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.66034375,"end":130.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.46596875,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.79034375,"end":145.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.08034375,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.51034375,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.06284375,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.45409375,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.48721875,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.02284375000002,"end":162.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.73971875,"end":162.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.71846875,"end":200.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.70534375,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.07346875000002,"end":187.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.29284375,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.65784375,"end":201.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.19346875000002,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.35534375,"end":220.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.23221875000002,"end":229.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.96971875000003,"end":230.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.31971875000002,"end":233.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.54284375,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPE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9,"text":"如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼?"},{"start":124.339,"end":147.444,"text":"我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘那我們目前的做法是這樣剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該"},{"start":153.087,"end":159.437,"text":"應該是...應該算是...算是等於是...我們就有...還是我應該問主計長?問主計長,這個稅計攝影師,記專業"},{"start":164.012,"end":187.098,"text":"因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分"},{"start":187.498,"end":201.207,"text":"那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短處經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以"},{"start":202.527,"end":219.708,"text":"這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎可以的"},{"start":224.281,"end":247.595,"text":"可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是"},{"start":248.775,"end":253.887,"text":"我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎?"},{"start":255.373,"end":281.533,"text":"不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短促還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短促但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短促來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁"},{"start":283.41,"end":306.027,"text":"今天早上正天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億正委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案"},{"start":307.447,"end":316.203,"text":"另外,提案說明嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作"},{"start":317.95,"end":342.244,"text":"這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這一句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比"},{"start":343.805,"end":344.365,"text":"他們一直提到說"},{"start":364.261,"end":383.202,"text":"因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說"},{"start":384.443,"end":408.972,"text":"因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢啦它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半"},{"start":409.532,"end":426.595,"text":"但是他從去年開始、112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個"},{"start":427.897,"end":441.372,"text":"來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計劃來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了"},{"start":442.093,"end":466.451,"text":"其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了"},{"start":468.677,"end":495.554,"text":"現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助、修繕的補助、買房子的補助這個可以收回嗎?那你講到基金我就要談了因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛"},{"start":498.666,"end":504.442,"text":"你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20%"},{"start":508.094,"end":534.52,"text":"現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎"},{"start":535.677,"end":564.812,"text":"因為原住民政府發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的"},{"start":567.637,"end":592.082,"text":"撥補400億進去之後,花完了就沒有了。跟我們這種,我請教主席長,哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下,但是也是有在撥補啦。是這樣子。那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦。所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕?"},{"start":595.22,"end":622.634,"text":"欸 你們都 你看剛才我有的問題 你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花東地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的因為剩下6秒齁 5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份"},{"start":624.11,"end":632.612,"text":"提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總書記這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著"},{"start":652.813,"end":671.899,"text":"沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦阿如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛"},{"start":676.772,"end":700.887,"text":"所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公務預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎所以是不是一場鬧劇"},{"start":702.887,"end":710.01,"text":"是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們"},{"start":733.14,"end":761.031,"text":"其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊"},{"start":762.546,"end":773.819,"text":"也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通"},{"start":775.069,"end":794.427,"text":"給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（15時45分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還有主計人員。"],["主席：主計長回來了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長在。"],["主席：主計長回來了，朝野協商結束。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好、主計長好，大家都累了，很辛苦。其實我想我們的國家應該有很多事情都需要你們回去做才是，但是還是很謝謝主席安排，因為很多的東西也很值得討論。","請教一下，最近我們收到一個新的提案，在禮拜五，也通過了，所以就教一些名詞，因為這些名詞都很專門，可能一般人如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語，恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話，我就請教……"],["主席：財劃法的嗎？今天是財劃法的廣泛討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有關係，因為我有10分鐘。"],["主席：沒關係，我們尊重，因為我有跟他們說今天來都是財劃法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：都相關。"],["主席：好，相關。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，請教一下，所謂的剩餘有兩種詞，同音異字，一個剩是剩下的剩，一個是專門在用的賸餘，肉字旁，然後旁邊有個貝，請問這兩個詞有什麼差異？"],["阮次長清華：這個我的理解是一樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我問簡單一點的好了，請問收入跟支出相減，如果得出來的是正，那個叫做什麼？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告一下，通常都是收支會有差短，也有可能會有賸餘，也會有賸餘嘛！我們目前的做法是這樣，賸餘的時候，我們現在就是能還債就多還債……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不是，次長可以直接解釋名詞就好了，就是收入跟支出相減，如果得到的是正的話，那個叫做什麼？賸餘還是短絀？"],["阮次長清華：那個我們應該算是，等於是我們就有……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還是我應該問主計長？"],["主席：問主計長，這個歲計賸餘是主計專業啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為收支賸餘有含舉債收入，所以你的收入裡面，除了歲入之外，還有一個借款的收入，你如果舉借的話，它就叫做收支的賸餘，所以你用哪一個賸其實都是一樣，只是一個是收支，一個是歲入，歲入的部分沒有包括舉債的部分，那個是叫做歲入歲出的賸餘，你如果歲入歲出是短絀，經過去舉債收入加進來，那你就會有收支的賸餘，是這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這樣子回答，我們族人、很多百姓應該聽不懂，我就簡單的問、簡單的答，如果我說賸餘，我講的是那個肉字旁的賸，如果我說賸餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣，可以這樣講嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是說文解字上，肉字旁的賸，它的意思是指什麼呢？它是指多出來增加、增益，所以意思一樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：在我們運用上是一樣的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我再請教一下，如果我說短絀67億元，然後把它說成是原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了，要破產了，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不對啦！因為基金它不是用它有短絀還是賸餘，歲入歲出才去算短絀，但是這個基金因為它主要都是國庫撥款進去基金裡面，它用完了，將來我們再撥款進去，它就又有錢可以用，是這樣的。所以這裡如果用短絀來說的話，我覺得比較……"],["主席：用不足，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不足……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那本席就援用逐字稿來問，今天早上鄭天財委員說財源不足67億元，這個禮拜五送出來的提案是說114年預估累積短絀高達67億元，鄭委員是說因為這樣，所以他們提案。另外，這個提案說明也提到，嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我再補充說明一下，第一個，我們是每一年都會計算，今年的收入減掉支出，它就會有短絀，但是基金會就整體來看……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是嘛！本席要說的就是這樣……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。所以……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所謂的短絀當然是指當年度的收入和支出嘛！本席要的就是這句話，要不然他們聽不懂。"],["陳主計長淑姿：當年度的收入和支出相比之後不夠，用歷年的累積添補……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，用歷年的累積來補充嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但基金還是有餘額，所以它是足夠支應的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。而且餘額淨值是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：67億元嘛！不是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席看到的是50億元啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，基金還有錢嘛！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席再請教另外一個問題，依照預算法第四條，因為這是特種基金下的作業基金，所以他們一直提到一句話，凡經付出，仍可收回，依字面解讀，他們說這是要收回來的，例如綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務，放出去的要收回來，所以他們認為禁伐補償金不可以這樣做。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。禁伐補償以往是由基金……因為都是國庫撥補的錢啦！它是由基金負擔，兩者各負擔一半。但是從去年（112）年開始，全部由國庫撥補款項，沒有用之前的賸餘支應……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["陳主計長淑姿：國庫撥補的錢，依照原住民族基本法的規定，這個基金的來源包括禁伐補償的撥入款，所以可以從國庫撥進去，再由基金列計畫支出，如果不足，以後年度再撥補就好了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，主計長說的很清楚。過去為了讓這筆經費全部編在公務預算，其實本席也質詢過朱主計長很多次，也謝謝他聽到本席的聲音。但是這不代表這樣做、那樣做，哪一個做法就是違法的，對不對？都是合法的嘛！都是依法編列嘛！你們三位都有點頭嘛！好，那本席就要問了，現在綜合發展基金也有補助一些中低收入戶，例如修繕補助、買房子的補助，這個可以收回嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，所以它不見得每一筆都收回。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。既然說到基金，那本席就要談下面這個議題，因為本席也質詢過。原住民綜合發展基金很辛苦，正常的逾放比應該是0.17%左右，但是你們知不知道，原住民綜合發展基金的逾放比，曾經在某一個年度高達20%。經過一直講，現在好像比較好了，但還是有8%，還是相當高，屬於不正常的逾放比。請教一下財政部次長、主計長，你們有放棄過嗎？逾放比20%那麼高，這是一個天文數字，你們有放棄過撥補原住民綜合發展基金嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為原住民綜合發展基金是一次撥100億元進去，然後一直用到現在，例如剩下50億元，如果……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席有查過，你們從95年開始撥進去，一直到現在有199億元。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，撥足，如果再有不足，以後會看我們的財政狀況再分年撥補，是這樣子。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席再請教最後一個問題，請問花東基金這種定額式的，撥補400億元進去之後，花完了就沒有了，和這種相比，請教主計長哪一種比較好？如果讓你選，你要哪一個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：花東基金還有剩，但是也是有在撥補啦！其實情形都雷同啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那要撥到什麼時候？所以你的意思是說，花東基金也可以源源不絕？你看，剛才有些問題你們點頭如搗蒜，現在這種問題卻面面相覷，不知道怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員。"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然，重點是撥補基金要看實際需求，如果花東地區有實際需求，我們還是會看它的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為剩下5、6秒，本席問最後一個問題。像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份修正提案，本席覺得處處都是錯誤啦！如果逕付二讀，然後三讀通過，請教一下財政部次長，您覺得如何？"],["阮次長清華：關於基金的部分，是否還是請主計總處說明？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，本席很高興，從一開始一直緊咬著沒有依法編列，後來發現105年主計總處早就發公文給原民會，告訴他們怎麼編列、經費來源是哪裡。主計總處，如果你們發的公文是不合法的，那中華民國政府也要倒了啦！如果基金發不出來，也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦！所以這是假議題嘛！","本席的意思是說，今天依法編列這個部分，大家已經懂了，原本要求一定要全額從公務預算支出，現在大家也不堅持了，從哪裡可以得到證明？從禮拜五這個提案，因為它就在幫基金找錢，但是基金真的沒有錢嗎？所以是不是一場鬧劇？是不是根本就是假議題？有需要為這種假議題綑綁全國的中央總預算嗎？我們原住民擔當不起。","所以本席希望大家要溝通，真的，現在原住民接收到的都是錯誤資訊，政府欺負原住民，沒有依法編列，看不起我們，其實根本都是子虛烏有，這是在內耗，會影響到全國的財政、大家的預算，茲事體大。本席沒有想到這種子虛烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大，本席很難過，也不希望大家錯誤的看待原住民，不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況，也不是每個原住民都會胡說八道。","本席在這裡拜託，政府各行政部門有義務要去溝通，要給予正確的資訊，希望趕快解決這件事情。謝謝主席，謝謝次長，謝謝主計長。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，謝謝主計長和次長。因為金門也有離島建設基金，所以本席理解伍麗華委員的說法。鄭天財委員的提案是說，基金已經快要沒有錢了，要早一點、多撥補一點錢到裡頭，不要等到要用的時候才去要，好像乞丐一樣。就像我們現在修財政收支劃分法一樣，縣市政府就應該有錢，這樣運作起來比較順暢。","如果總預算真的如伍委員所說，比如公務預算編4萬元，原住民基金編2萬元，如果伍麗華委員是卓院長的話，這件事情就解決了嘛！現在就是卓院長應該也沒有承諾4+2這樣編列，如果有的話，這件事情就解決了嘛！好，謝謝。","接著請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0554ed5b9654377cfd42df3203622d4e3c6fec705aa549b012f3849b7c75922ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"15:36:44 - 15:45:08","影片長度":"00:08:24","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T15:36:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T15:45:08+08:00","duration":504,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.09409375,"end":3.6759687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.96284375,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.83159375,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.286593750000002,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.96284375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.469718750000006,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.37471875,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.60846875,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.48909375000001,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.94471875,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.97846875,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.04159375,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.48034375,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.64909375,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.03721875000001,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.67846875000001,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.03284375000001,"end":126.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.89346875000001,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.34034375,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.47534375000001,"end":128.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.12284375000002,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.89034375,"end":146.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.31596875,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.19596875000002,"end":170.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.09971875000002,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.11659375000002,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.75346875000002,"end":183.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.76534375,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.02596875,"end":203.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.59409375,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.69534375,"end":203.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.71221875,"end":203.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.72909375,"end":203.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.74596875,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.88096875000002,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.03284375,"end":211.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.31846875000002,"end":218.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.88284375,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.97846875000002,"end":286.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.37909375,"end":229.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.86284375,"end":265.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.09284375000004,"end":279.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.33659375,"end":297.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.18721875,"end":317.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.90409375,"end":299.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.54534375000003,"end":300.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.88846875,"end":318.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.42846875000004,"end":336.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.46221875000003,"end":318.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.63096875,"end":319.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.46784375000004,"end":338.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.69534375,"end":338.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.91471875,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.03284375000004,"end":350.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.41909375,"end":378.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.90846875,"end":390.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.97409375,"end":390.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.10909375,"end":398.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.63971875000004,"end":398.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.50034375,"end":398.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.66909375,"end":398.753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我們算的結果就是中央可以用的錢大概剩下三千六百多億元，三千六百多億元連國防支出都不夠……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝政次，我跟您報告一下，從明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟一般補助款……本席是來自新北市中和，新北市只分配到662.05億元，依照現在分配的整個狀況來講，人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名，因為它整體的人數有到四百多萬人，所以每個人只分配1萬3,625元，也是全國排名倒數第三，新北市其實像您剛剛講的，中央每年都是短絀的問題。我想請問一下，針對六都的部分，尤其新北市是六都排名倒數第一，人均只有1萬3,625元，就財政部的立場，這樣的金額會不會太低？未來有沒有說調整公式以後，可以把這個數字往上提升？這個數字您能接受嗎？"],["阮次長清華：剛才委員提到新北市663億元，那個是不含計畫型補助，如果含計畫型補助的話，待會兒也許主總那邊可以來補充……"],["張委員智倫：計畫型補助不是每年都一定會有的嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，但是基本上因為……"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我要拜託政次回去，也是跟財政部討論的部分，我認為當然六都很重要，等一下我要提到的，其實各縣市也非常重要，比如過去大家知道彰化縣、雲林縣，有些政府真的都有快要付不出錢的問題……"],["阮次長清華：是的。"],["張委員智倫：所以我說這就是為什麼要修財劃法最重要的原因。"],["阮次長清華：了解。"],["張委員智倫：我是不是請教政次，目前總共提出了這麼多的版本，有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為比較可行的，或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點是財政部認為可以來參考或執行的？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，目前22個版本當中幾乎只處理的就是垂直分配，也就是資源釋出，至於怎麼分配，比如剛才委員提到新北市的問題，要用什麼指標把它分配得更合理、更公平，這一部分從來都沒有碰到，所以我是覺得目前的這幾個版本可能都沒辦法作為一個討論的依據，如果可以的話，可能將來還要再做一個調整，才有辦法……"],["張委員智倫：最後，我再請問一下，因為我剛剛聽到召委有說，就是召委現在很希望進到逐條討論，剛剛次長也有說逐條討論是可以解決現況的嗎？"],["阮次長清華：逐條討論如果沒有先做先期的準備的話……"],["張委員智倫：我們現在就在準備啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，我們會努力來整合，再努力地整合……"],["張委員智倫：所以次長不排斥逐條討論，大家一起來討論，來解決現況。"],["阮次長清華：這個東西我沒辦法承諾，因為這個我……"],["張委員智倫：可以來往這個方向進一步來討論，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：但是這個是大院的職權，就是委員自然就可以決定嘛！但是就我的角度來看，就我們行政機關的角度來看，如果是在討論之前有一個基本大框架的共識，在逐條討論的時候，一定會更順利，如果以目前這樣來看的話，我是覺得沒有比現在好，我覺得真的沒有比現在好，為什麼？因為現在的基本上有一些調整盈虛什麼之類的、截長補短，都有這些機制，但是現在很多新的版本，這個機制都沒有了，財政努力也沒有了，財政紀律這些都沒有。我的理解，會不會就是卓院長講的現在版本是最好的版本，我猜想可能就是還沒有更好的之前，也許現在是最好的，為什麼？因為大家就照目前這樣一直分配下去，地方也拿到最多的錢。但是我覺得當然每一個想法不一樣，我們還是很多東西都可以再進一步討論。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員，謝謝。阮次，所以你們要趕快提出版本啊！我們一直在等啊！","接著請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0cdab4d3834e7febdd42df3203622d4e3c6fec705aa549b01bfcdbd1d32fe68635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"15:23:51 - 15:36:36","影片長度":"00:12:45","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T15:23:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T15:36:36+08:00","duration":765,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.03909375,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.86096875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.15971875,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.28534375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.555343750000002,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.46221875,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.453468750000003,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.82721875,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.93659375,"end":40.446593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.446593750000005,"end":40.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.53096875,"end":42.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.92721875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.92909375,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.532218750000006,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.62034375,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.04596875,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.99096875000001,"end":72.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.61034375,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.33596875,"end":75.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.01909375000001,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.82471875,"end":78.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.65159375,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.88346875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.67159375,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.20721875000001,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.16034375000001,"end":92.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":99.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.57221875,"end":105.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.55846875,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.58784375,"end":112.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.02596875,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.50659375000001,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.85221875,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.13471875,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.51409375,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":124.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.36596875000001,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.02846875,"end":152.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.64846875,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.92596875,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.97659375,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.06096875,"end":159.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.29721875,"end":159.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.53346875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.64221875,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.72159375,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.82221875000002,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.47159375,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.19284375,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.30534375000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.73096875000002,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.95409375,"end":196.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":198.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.37971875000002,"end":206.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.61034375000003,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.28471875000002,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.47846875000002,"end":214.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.55846875,"end":216.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.75659375,"end":217.81971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方就應該要把它定定下來。是是。"},{"start":142.012,"end":169.682,"text":"那這樣才有辦法好好來談事情嘛我們希望以這樣的精神但是你說全部用這樣的一個精神嗎?也不是啊就好像我們最近即將要審查的當沖降稅那其實那個也是我提的啊我這提延長五年嘛那儘管為了彭主委他還是覺得五年比較恰當那他的原因是說希望"},{"start":170.765,"end":195.041,"text":"未來整個亞洲的資產管理中心法規如果過度的變動外資就不敢進來今天一進來三年一下兩年就滿了下次又要面臨修法的問題穩定性不夠所以當然長一點比較好所以今天我們討論財劃法最大的一個宗旨就是說把遊戲規則定出來"},{"start":197.498,"end":224.909,"text":"地方才有辦法依據大概我明年大概可以獲得中央多少的補助我的預算應該怎樣妥適的來編啊其實過度集權好不好很多民眾也都在講說那前瞻一次要花多少錢8千多億8千4百億8千多億一次就通過不過分很多年就是了分很多年編了國防預算"},{"start":226.206,"end":245.561,"text":"沒幾分的啪就幾千億幾千這樣出去了為什麼不把這些多的資源放在地方讓地方好好來施政我們說人民當家做主你錢到地方,地方有議會,議會有眼睛會盯啊"},{"start":247.187,"end":268.012,"text":"那地方它實際需要多少?這你錢充裕一點來,它就有辦法好好來推動嘛。本席在上一次的這個會議當中,我當召委的時候,我請22縣市全部首長不分藍綠什麼的,全部通通都來。"},{"start":269.738,"end":297.666,"text":"我是問他那如果有需要的你就大聲講出來請舉手不需要的你就可以先離開結果你知道22縣市全部都留下來表示他們是重視這個事他們是需要的所以我們希望說中央過度集權這是民眾不樂意看到的"},{"start":298.775,"end":326.729,"text":"因為你再讓我回來講我們是民主國家民主國家就應該讓大家更多的監督的機制如果你都說不要不要不要你們中央要全部一把抓那你幹嘛還要現在目前每年有多少給地方公視裡面有嘛公視委員的意思是說現在有多少對"},{"start":328.943,"end":332.627,"text":"給地方的部分,去年是吧?全部給地方的是這樣,如果加進用114年度的來計算的話,就是1.1兆151億給地方嗎?給地方"},{"start":345.842,"end":372.97,"text":"就是說如果你不給地方全部都由中央來決定的話那是誰說了算?誰來決定?那個就是按照公式去分配的有公式嗎?有公式公式分配所以就是25年來這個公式都沒有修改過嘛所以每個地方現在都改變了嘛像我們以前直轄市、台北市啊後來高雄啊現在六都啊所以六都選出來的這些民意代表"},{"start":373.939,"end":394.137,"text":"每個上來都是大聲疾呼啊為地方來爭取啊如果大家覺得不妥的請覺得不需要的簽個名嘛你可以聲明出來啊你看他回去能不能交代我們來自地方我來立法院我不為地方爭取那我當立委幹嘛"},{"start":395.692,"end":418.409,"text":"所以這個邏輯我也請主席你可以問一下如果真的不希望中央統籌稅款的補助他可以上來聲明他就先離開啊他就不需要在這邊講話啦 對不對我們要爭取的是給需要的人地方需要你就大聲疾呼來講的確有這些困難啊我們面對的很多"},{"start":420.206,"end":433.52,"text":"醫療的部分應該要增加的,消防車以及地方學校的教育等等,我們是需要的,還有我們有一些道路建設等等,對民眾的需求。"},{"start":435.068,"end":458.1,"text":"需要中央,更多中央,其實你中央你就把這個制度制定好,就讓它很順利的推展下去嘛。我跟委員報告,其實我是覺得我們對財化法就是兩個堅固,一個是地方的需求,一個是中央的財政認証,都要顧慮到,這是第一個。"},{"start":458.9,"end":486.503,"text":"第二個其實我們財政部不排斥說要釋出財源因為我們的修法六個原則之中其中一個就是擴大釋出規模所以擴大釋出規模只是說我們希望就是說還能夠調劑營需就是說能夠你釋出去了能夠就是資源比較差的那就多給他也就是說能夠讓他立足點能夠平衡"},{"start":487.003,"end":506.172,"text":"所以我們的六大的原則當中就包括擴大釋出財源所以中央沒有排斥說要釋出財源但是要合理啦要能夠兼顧地方跟中央的需求啦所以像目前如果說以國民黨版如果釋出4千多億真的中央就很多事情都不能做"},{"start":508.393,"end":521.564,"text":"現在的情況就是可能有一些第一次來當立委的他比較不曉得說立法院其實就是合意制就在你有很多的版本你有很多意見都可以提出來大家可以協調嘛"},{"start":523.53,"end":545.741,"text":"當然可以協調,但是我是說如果啦所以為什麼要草野協商?就是大家來聽聽看,大家的意見也許你沒有辦法100分每個人都沒有辦法爭取到滿可是多少嘛?80分也可以,70分也可以我倒是有一個想法就是說因為我們有一個六大的修法原則,假定"},{"start":546.721,"end":562.375,"text":"用這個六大原則來檢視各版本如果可以的話就慢慢就可以聚焦然後慢慢的就是說你釋出的規模大概釋出多少那你水平分配應該用什麼指標來做分配最好"},{"start":563.075,"end":589.493,"text":"如果用這六大原則來檢視各版本的話也許就比較容易有聚焦的可能啦因為現在我跟委員報告就是說現在很多版本都只注重什麼呢注重就是錢的垂直分配啦啊這樣子的話就會導致一個問題就是說有錢的會更有錢然後沒有錢的會更沒有錢就是說貧則越貧然後富者越貧"},{"start":593.415,"end":593.676,"text":"財政部財政部時間"},{"start":616.214,"end":643.26,"text":"時間已經給了,等很久了我希望說市長剛剛講的六大原則資料給大家大家多多來研究一下如果說真的很好我也不見得會堅持一定要通過我的版本但是我覺得共同的精神是一致的那麼多版本大家幹嘛就是希望地方增加地方的財政錢可以多一點給地方"},{"start":643.98,"end":647.326,"text":"大概就這樣子而已所以不見得說要5000多億沒有5000多億3000多億大家談一談"},{"start":651.583,"end":672.558,"text":"只要有幫助。其實我是覺得也是這樣,如果是說中央跟地方,大家可以各讓一步,然後就是一開始不要釋出那麼多規模會影響到中央的施政的話,其實都比較好處理。現在比例中央跟地方大概多少?"},{"start":674.202,"end":702.58,"text":"現在的比例目前是這樣子62比38但是支出中央是64那地方是36換句話說中央的雖然是62但是我們的支出是64這也是為什麼這幾年我們財政中央的都是赤字那地方的這幾年都是雲雨到去年"},{"start":703.28,"end":719.219,"text":"那麼他已經達到648億的原因在這裡因為中國不斷的釋出那最後就是因為新北市人口最多是千萬拜託人均的概念讓新北市多一點的資源好做事拜託謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":722.901,"end":746.754,"text":"謝謝羅明才委員那我覺得次長講得很好啊就趕快提出財政部的版本你們都有覆案了嘛我們已經給你們三個月又有兩個月啦三個月又一個月啦六月份做的決議財委會有做一個決議說要提出版本嘛你們既然有六大指標就趕快按照指標提出來啊那照理剛剛說64比36那國民黨希望6比4也只有差4%因為很接近啊"},{"start":749.168,"end":764.816,"text":"六十四比三是收入嘛,我們說的是支出,支出是六十四比三十六嘛,中央地方嘛,對不對?那我們要變成六比四只有4%的差距而已啊,只是差別在於地方政府要提出計畫讓你們審,還是由地方政府自己決定計畫嘛,大概差別是在這裡嘛。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1074,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（15時23分）謝謝主席，各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請阮次長？"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：阮次長，你好。我想立法院就是討論的地方，不同的意見多多來講。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["羅委員明才：特別是這次的召委，主席的表現可圈可點，因為慢慢的讓大家講到飽，講到內心的話充分的表達。不過我大概從幾十年前聽到現在，雖然版本很多，剛剛因為有其他同仁也講到我的版本，雖然有那麼多的、二十幾個版本，其實都有一個最重要的宗旨啦，就是希望中央不要過度集錢、集權，其實就是這個道理啦。剛剛有人講到本席的提案大概可能會增加數百億，有人的提案是幾千億，通通都有，本席以為成功不必在我，也不堅持一定要用我的案子，只要能過，中央就多一點資源給地方，因為我們都是區域選出來的，最重要的就是希望多一點資源讓地方好好來做事傳譬如說我們過去是臺北縣，現在升格變成新北市，升格之前跟之後，你那裡有沒有數據，我們大概的統籌分配稅款從臺北縣到現在有增加，大概是每年增加多少？因為本席每次在這裡都大聲疾呼，要以人均的概念來思考這個問題，因為人生而平等嘛，這是一個最基本的精神，所以垂直分配的時候，這個地方就應該要把它訂定下來……"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["羅委員明才：這樣才有辦法好好來談事情嘛，我們希望以這樣的精神，但是你說全部用這樣的一個精神嗎，也不是啊，就好像我們最近即將要審查的當沖降稅，其實那個也是我提的，我是提延長5年嘛，金管會彭主委也覺得5年比較恰當……"],["阮次長清華：後來改3年。"],["羅委員明才：他的原因是希望未來整個亞洲的資產管理中心，法規如果過度的變動，外資就不敢進來嘛，今天一進來，3年一下就滿了，下次又要面臨修法的問題，穩定性不夠，所以當然長一點比較好。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["羅委員明才：所以今天我們討論這個財劃法，最大的一個宗旨就是把遊戲規則訂出來，地方才有辦法，依據自己明年大概可以獲得中央多少的補助，才知道預算應該怎樣妥適的來編啦，其實過度集權好不好？很多民眾也都在講，前瞻一次要花多少錢？八千多億……"],["阮次長清華：8,400億。"],["羅委員明才：八千多億一次就通過。"],["阮次長清華：不過它分多年就是了，分很多年編。"],["羅委員明才：國防預算沒幾分鐘就「啪」的幾千億、幾千億這樣出去了，為什麼不把這些多的資源放在地方，讓地方好好來施政？我們說人民當家作主，錢到地方，地方有議會，議會有眼睛會盯啊，地方實際需要多少，錢充裕一點來，他就有辦法好好來推動嘛！"],["阮次長清華：是，所以……"],["羅委員明才：本席在上一次的會議當中，我當召委的時候，我請22縣市的全部首長，不分藍綠什麼的，全部通通都來，我就問他們，如果有需要的就大聲講出來，請舉手，不需要的就可以先離開，結果22縣市全部都留下來啊，表示他們是重視這個事，他們是需要的，所以我們認為中央過度集錢、過度集權，這是民眾不樂意看到的。你再拉回來講，我們是民主國家，民主國家就應該讓大家有更多的監督機制，如果你都說不要、不要、不要，你們中央要全部一把抓，那你幹嘛還要，．現在每年有多少給地方？公式裡面有嘛！"],["阮次長清華：公式？委員的意思是說現在有多少？"],["羅委員明才：對，給地方的部分，去年。"],["阮次長清華：給地方的，是吧？"],["羅委員明才：對，去年是給……"],["阮次長清華：全部給地方的是這樣，如果用114年度的來計算的話，就是1兆151億。"],["羅委員明才：給地方嗎？"],["阮次長清華：給地方，給地方。"],["羅委員明才：好，那就是說，如果你不給地方，全部都由中央來決定的話，是誰說了算？誰來決定？"],["阮次長清華：那個就是按照公式去分配的。"],["羅委員明才：有公式嘛？"],["阮次長清華：依公式分配。"],["羅委員明才：25年來這個公式都沒有修改過，但是每個地方現在都改變了嘛！像我們以前直轄市就臺北市，後來高雄，現在六都啊！所以六都選出來的這些民意代表，每個上來都是大聲疾呼，為地方來爭取啊！如果大家覺得不妥的，請覺得不需要的簽個名，你可以聲明出來啊！你看他回去能不能交代，我們來自地方，我來立法院，我不為地方爭取，我當立委幹嘛！所以這個邏輯。我也請主席可以問一下，如果真的不希望中央統籌稅款的補助，他可以上來聲明，他就先離開，他就不需要在這邊講話了，對不對？我們要爭取的是給需要的人，地方需要，你就大聲疾呼的確有這些困難啊！我們面對的，很多醫療的部分應該要增加的，消防車以及地方學校的教育等等，我們是需要的，我們還有一些道路建設等等，是民眾的需求，所以需要中央給更多資源。其實你中央就把這個制度制定好，讓它很順利的推展下去嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，其實我是覺得我們對財劃法就是兩個兼顧，一個是地方的需求，一個是中央的財政韌性，都要顧慮到，這是第一個。第二個，其實我們財政部不排斥要釋出財源，因為我們修法的六個原則之中，其中一個就是擴大釋出規模，所以擴大釋出規模，只是我們希望還能夠調劑盈虛，就是說你釋出去的，資源比較差的就多給它，也就是說讓它的立足點能夠平衡。我們的六大原則當中就包括擴大釋出財源，所以中央沒有排斥釋出財源，但是要合理，要能夠兼顧地方跟中央的需求……"],["羅委員明才：是，沒錯。"],["阮次長清華：所以像目前以國民黨版，如果釋出四千多億元，真的中央就很多事情都不能做，等於是說……"],["羅委員明才：不是，現在的情況可能有一些第一次來當立委的，他比較不曉得立法院其實就是合議制，就算你有很多的版本、很多意見，都可以提出來，大家可以協調嘛！"],["阮次長清華：當然可以協調，但是我是說如果啦！"],["羅委員明才：所以為什麼要朝野協商，就是大家來聽聽看大家的意見，也許你沒有辦法100分，每個人都沒有辦法爭取到滿，可是多少嘛！80分也可以，70分也可以。"],["阮次長清華：我倒是有一個想法，因為我們有一個六大修法原則，假定用這個六大原則來檢視各版本，如果可以的話就可以慢慢聚焦，然後慢慢的就是你釋出的規模大概釋出多少，你水平分配應該用什麼指標來分配最好，如果用這六大原則來檢視各版本的話，也許就比較容易有聚焦的可能，因為現在……"],["羅委員明才：是，沒錯。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，現在很多版本都只注重什麼呢？注重錢的垂直分配，這樣子的話就會導致一個問題，就是有錢的會更有錢，然後沒有錢的會更沒有錢，就是貧者越貧，富者越富。"],["羅委員明才：其實我覺得你講的有一些道理，比如在這些那麼多的版本裡面，如果財政部有更好的方式，財政部的版本趕快拿出來，我們就會跟著你的版本來凝聚共識。我覺得這個也很好，其實在上個會期的時候，我們一直給財政部時間，時間已經給了，等很久了。"],["阮次長清華：是，這個我們……"],["羅委員明才：我希望次長剛剛講的六大原則，你的資料給大家，大家多多來研究一下，如果說真的很好，我也不見得會堅持一定要通過我的版本啊！"],["阮次長清華：我是覺得這個……"],["羅委員明才：但是我覺得共同的精神是一致的，那麼多版本，大家幹嘛！就是希望增加地方的財政，錢可以多一點給地方，大概就是這樣子而已。"],["阮次長清華：對，當然，我……"],["羅委員明才：所以不見得說要五千多億，沒有五千多億，三千多億大家談一談，只要有幫助，我想地方不滿意，但也是可以接受啊！"],["阮次長清華：其實我是覺得也是這樣，如果中央跟地方大家可以各讓一步，然後一開始不要釋出那麼多規模，會影響到中央施政的話，其實都比較好處理。"],["羅委員明才：是，現在中央跟地方大概是多少比例？"],["阮次長清華：什麼？"],["羅委員明才：現在的比例。"],["阮次長清華：比例，剛才我特別跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：75、25？"],["阮次長清華：目前是這樣子，62比38，但是支出，中央是64，地方是36，換句話說中央雖然是62，但是我們的支出是64，這也是為什麼這幾年我們中央都是赤字，地方這幾年都是盈餘，到去年盈餘已經達到648億元的原因在這裡，因為中央不斷的釋出去。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。最後就是因為新北市人口最多，千萬拜託，人均的概念，讓新北市多一點的資源，好做事，拜託謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。我覺得次長講得很好，就趕快提出財政部的版本，你們都有腹案了嘛！我們已經給你們3個月又1個月了，6月份做的決議，財委會有做一個決議說要提出版本嘛！你們既然有六大指標，就趕快按照指標提出來，照你剛剛說64比36，國民黨希望6比4，也只有差4%，因為很接近啊！62比38是收入，我們說的是支出，支出是64比36，中央、地方，對不對？那我們要變成6比4，只有4%的差距而已啊！只是差別在於地方政府要提出計畫讓你們審，還是由地方政府自己決定計畫，大概差別是在這裡吧！","接著請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f00f16a7d41049e70ed42df3203622d4e32bf18926ac575b5ca7050ee30736cb025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"15:16:27 - 15:23:18","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T15:16:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T15:23:18+08:00","duration":411,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.77284375,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.46846875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.957218750000003,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.73346875,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.85409375,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.97221875,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.80534375,"end":47.736593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.994718750000004,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.30159375,"end":51.735968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.854093750000004,"end":51.955343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.955343750000004,"end":58.587218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":52.799093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.14409375,"end":102.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.72534375000001,"end":66.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.48284375,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.49971875,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.51659375,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.25909375,"end":79.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.86596875000001,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.44346875000001,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.49409375,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.64159375,"end":89.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.40096875,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.52971875,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.60909375,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.86909375,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.75034375000001,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.78409375000001,"end":125.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.81784375000001,"end":128.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.75784375,"end":128.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.19659375,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.85846875000001,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.57471875000002,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.85659375,"end":150.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.16346875000002,"end":153.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.30659375000002,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.99409375000002,"end":228.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.21221875,"end":190.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.39284375000003,"end":223.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.15221875,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.97409375,"end":234.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.45846875,"end":236.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.33596875,"end":245.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.50721875000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.47721875000002,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.26096875,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.27784375,"end":256.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.32409375000003,"end":261.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.86784375,"end":266.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.62659375000004,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.08596875,"end":269.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":270.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.11534375,"end":270.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.30096875000004,"end":270.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.40221875000003,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.96284375,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.03846875,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.78096875,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.53971875,"end":313.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.98221875,"end":312.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":316.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.49221875,"end":318.19221875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要。"],["范委員雲：請問次長，那個勞保基金撥補砍了之後，不夠的部分怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：不夠的話，我們現在還在精算啦，因為國民黨團……"],["范委員雲：我問你，我們可不可以請地方來支付？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，國民黨團後來有降，大概現在變成4,080億元，有降到4,080億元，有降下來，他也覺得太高了……"],["范委員雲：那我問你，有沒有哪個委員的法條把勞保的責任基金撥補也拿走了，有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：勞保？"],["范委員雲：對，勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助？因為錢不夠啊，中央……"],["阮次長清華：對啊，我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛……"],["范委員雲：對，所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嘛！"],["阮次長清華：沒有。"],["范委員雲：沒有嘛！"],["阮次長清華：沒有。"],["范委員雲：那強化社會安全網，有哪個委員的版本，地方政府……"],["阮次長清華：都沒有……"],["范委員雲：沒有？"],["阮次長清華：幾乎目前都只處理……"],["范委員雲：那教育更不用講了，我剛剛講教育依法是地方事權，我早上舉的東部某知名縣市，就是講國民黨總召的縣市啦，花蓮啦，已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了，一直在聘代理教師，然後把錢拿去辦營養午餐，更不用講國防，請問次長，國防2,945億，還不含人事喔，這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力，這有辦法叫地方來補嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是啊，國防應該……"],["范委員雲：這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎？請問財政部次長？"],["阮次長清華：目前大概最可能的就是從這個計畫型……"],["范委員雲：不是，我不要講錢了，這個事項不可能交給地方嘛！"],["阮次長清華：不可能，不可能，那是中央的職權。"],["范委員雲：對嘛，那這個你要補來補去，你到時候又挖到別的了，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["范委員雲：對，所以癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔，所以剛剛召委一直說這個差距在逐條審查可以來討論，立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦，你要討論你辦學術座談會，你辦座談會，民主一定要討論，但是如果你只是為了討論而討論，你辦座談會就好了，審法條是要準備好了，知道解方之後才是負責任的討論，要不負責任的任意討論，辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞，好嗎？請我們召委從善如流！一修法之後十幾二十年，國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨，這樣太沒有志氣了！以上。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝范委員，謝謝。沒有討論不是民主，怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方，你說錯了，是不是？"],["范委員雲：主席中文……"],["主席：沒有，你說立法院不是討論的地方喔？"],["范委員雲：不是，我說……"],["主席：我們民主的可貴就是有多元的意見……"],["范委員雲：……座談會就好了！"],["主席：民主的可貴，所以我們不是要辦座談會，所以我們才要進入逐條討論，大家針對每一條好好的來討論啊！"],["范委員雲：沒有準備的討論是浪費時間！"],["主席：怎麼會浪費時間呢？討論是浪費時間嗎？逐條討論是浪費時間嗎？我們逐條討論以後，如果沒有共識，那就按照民主的程序，少數服從多數，多數尊重少數，這個本來是這樣子。","不是啦，你剛剛說立法院不是討論的地方，讓我非常驚訝啦！沒關係，民主的可貴就是多元意見啊！我們一定會好好討論，而且我們不能只有廣泛討論，太書空咄咄。","好，沒關係，大家等一下繼續登記就可以繼續發言。接著我們請羅明才委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0b3a1876df5f579cad42df3203622d4e32bf18926ac575b5cb9f0b68493ff28c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"15:08:32 - 15:15:47","影片長度":"00:07:15","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T15:08:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T15:15:47+08:00","duration":435,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.22471875,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.24534375,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.03784375,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.08846875,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.10534375,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.59346875,"end":46.977218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.76159375,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.697843750000004,"end":53.001593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.89659375000001,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.33409375000001,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.37534375,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.96596875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.03346875000001,"end":94.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.95284375,"end":102.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.95159375,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.12034375,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.09846875000001,"end":111.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.38471875,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.05471875,"end":121.95284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.95284375000001,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.66534375,"end":125.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.88471875,"end":125.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.95221875000001,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.42034375000001,"end":127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.85346875000002,"end":139.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.21596875,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.24971875,"end":139.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.78846875000002,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.26096875000002,"end":151.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.34909375,"end":166.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.57909375,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.07159375,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.84659375,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.02596875,"end":201.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.69221875000002,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.65346875,"end":229.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.85659375,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.46346875,"end":316.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.48034375,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.63721875000002,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.97721875,"end":349.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.17909375000005,"end":355.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.57409375000003,"end":375.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.27159375,"end":381.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.30534375,"end":378.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.72659375,"end":403.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.42784375,"end":404.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.13659375000003,"end":415.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.17034375000003,"end":404.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.51471875000004,"end":419.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.02909375,"end":417.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.55221875,"end":417.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.66596875000005,"end":418.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.69971875000005,"end":434.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.69534375,"end":420.23534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.233,"end":4.042,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長金鸞次長"},{"start":9.779,"end":38.256,"text":"委員好市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大我舉一個例子跟市長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨"},{"start":38.976,"end":66.207,"text":"版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面呢金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大那更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像"},{"start":66.627,"end":90.357,"text":"但是這樣到底要怎麼討論?你們在跟縣市討論的時候,你們通常目前,討論到目前為止,你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走?目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標,先大家取得最大的共識。好,等一下,如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識,還有辦法再往下討論嗎?"},{"start":92.277,"end":111.381,"text":"等於是又像回到原點一樣那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分?22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂"},{"start":115.423,"end":143.943,"text":"現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣"},{"start":144.603,"end":170.015,"text":"對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦"},{"start":172.316,"end":193.693,"text":"那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入逐條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的"},{"start":194.133,"end":213.938,"text":"等一下等一下,還有脫離的我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛"},{"start":214.518,"end":227.751,"text":"那11個縣市有其中的11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短嘛但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題"},{"start":229.872,"end":250.838,"text":"謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務"},{"start":251.938,"end":267.69,"text":"以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀"},{"start":276.756,"end":299.109,"text":"如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常"},{"start":301.73,"end":316.706,"text":"他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們"},{"start":317.267,"end":337.564,"text":"如果是這樣的話,因為中央目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話,中央很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來,因為我錢已經出去了嘛"},{"start":338.084,"end":354.871,"text":"所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣"},{"start":358.615,"end":374.645,"text":"但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論?"},{"start":377.294,"end":379.936,"text":"我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?"},{"start":404.157,"end":417.845,"text":"而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員"},{"start":424.25,"end":434.806,"text":"市長要好好準備喔!金日竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（15時8分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題，也包含主席剛剛說的，既然沒有共識，我們就要在逐條當中討論，但是就我在教育及文化委員會，在去年、在上一屆的最後一年，我們進行國教法跟特教法的大修，還有學輔法的討論，我們發現在逐條當中有可能共識的歧異點會更大。我舉一個例子跟次長您請教，在財政委員會裡面，我們看到這一次國民黨版本的提案有二十多個，每一個版本裡面的金額從三百多億到五、六千億的……"],["阮次長清華：到七千多億。"],["陳委員培瑜：每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大，光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大，更何況到各個縣市，不管是藍、綠執政，甚至是白，我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標，或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標，都有不同的想法跟想像，但是這樣到底要怎麼討論，你們在跟縣市討論的時候，就你們討論的到目前為止，你覺得有可能會朝什麼方向往下走？"],["阮次長清華：目前我們努力的方向，是先從水平的分配指標來取得最大共識，這個對將來的修法……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識，還有辦法再往下討論嗎？"],["阮次長清華：等於又回到原點一樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：你可不可以告訴大家，目前22縣市在水平分配的討論上，從零分到十分，大家的共識度有幾分？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，本來各縣市提了八十個指標……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯，我看到你們給我們的報告裡面是寫這樣，現在有收攏吧？"],["阮次長清華：現在已經在收斂，大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定。"],["陳委員培瑜：這三大指標從零分到十分，目前大家可接受度是？"],["阮次長清華：那部分比如說像污染問題、再生能源問題，或歲出的節省問題，我覺得這三個指標難度應該不是最高的，最高的是權重跟加成那部分。因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣，所以大家一定會說對我有利的就權重高一點……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然，都是這樣的。"],["阮次長清華：所以問題在這裡。"],["陳委員培瑜：我是財委的外委，我這麼外行的人，聽起來都覺得差異這麼大，怎麼可能馬上進入逐條討論就有機會收攏成共識，有可能嗎？你自己說實話。"],["阮次長清華：如果有一些前置作業的話，那麼逐條討論才會順利。因為現在……"],["陳委員培瑜：前置作業，可是如果按照召委的排程，看起來禮拜三召委就想要進入逐條討論，有可能嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得難度會很高，為什麼？因為每個版本都差異太大，而且有些根本就脫離了財劃法的立法目的……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，還有脫離的？我們剛剛談到有一些收攏的，大家有一些共識，現在居然還有脫離的？"],["阮次長清華：我所謂脫離的意思是，設計上沒有考慮到比如財政收支差短的彌補。因為有些縣市比較好，但其中有11個縣市就算全部留給它也不夠用啊！所以一定要有一些截長補短，但目前很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題。也就是說，如果看起來落差這麼大，那就不要再花時間跟你討論，因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識。可是我們再往下看，同時也跟您請教另外一個題目，在教育文化委員會有非常多預算必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務，我自己最關心的是用閱讀對抗3C，或這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法學習。但光閱讀這件事，每年都必須由中央的教育部來撥補經費……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：讓各地方圖書館或學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子，讓他們可以進到校園裡面或社區圖書館閱讀。一旦中央的經費被拿走，除了我剛剛說的閱讀外，還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼，或大學生、高中生的學費補助，還有重大交通建設，甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403震災之後，由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設上。我舉出這麼多項目，是我們的民生日常，都必須由中央支出這些錢；一旦錢真的像剛剛那二十幾個版本通通都到地方去，請問中央會發生什麼事情？您可不可以就我剛剛舉例的，我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們？"],["阮次長清華：以目前很多版本來看，如果中央釋出太多資源的話，那麼中央有很多施政真的沒辦法做！所以剛才委員提到的那些計畫型補助可能就要拉回來，因為錢已經出去了，要把相關權責交給地方政府去做，問題是中央已經做很久了，很順……"],["陳委員培瑜：不好意思，主席，我再一分鐘就好。對，我還有一分鐘，是主席站太快了。","我有一個疑問，像我剛剛舉例的震災這件事，如果牽扯到交通建設就會有跨縣市的問題；或者我剛剛說的閱讀補助，也會有跨縣市的問題，如果通通都丟到地方去，那麼跨縣市之間的問題怎麼整合、怎麼討論？"],["阮次長清華：這個就是我們在整合的時候碰到的一個很大的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以如果以我一個財政外行來看，都會遇到這麼多的問題，在我們熟悉的教育及文化委員會的議題上，那我就必須要拜託次長，我們後續的討論也許真的要暫停、煞車，不要再往前推進，因為看起來逐條討論，如果別的委員會的委員都開始來問您、請教這些問題，我相信你也沒有辦法回答，我想沒有任何人可以回答這些問題，對嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，我覺得……"],["陳委員培瑜：而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法，因為就算有了法條，但是相關的配套、相關的落實如果都有問題，那法條寫了等於也是白寫，不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的？"],["阮次長清華：是滿辛苦的，難度會非常高啦。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，次長要好好準備喔，進入逐條如果回答不出來，這個對財政部來講有失顏面。"],["陳委員培瑜：你不要這樣威脅次長！"],["主席：我是跟次長說，鼓勵他好好準備，然後不同的意見是我們民主社會的可貴嘛，我們逐條討論時當然會有各種不同的意見，各個縣市都有不同的意見。"],["賴委員惠員：你不要語帶恐嚇！"],["主席：沒有，我是說請他好好準備，才不會丟財政部的臉。然後不同意見就是民主的可貴嘛，民主社會就是這樣可貴，如果大家都沒有辦法達成共識，國家也是要往前走，那我們就會尊重民主的制度嘛。我提供我在內政委員會修法時有八十幾個版本、一百多條的經驗，告訴大家，就是逐條、逐條進入討論，就會凝聚出共識，沒有凝聚出共識，就像以前民進黨的作法一樣，就送交朝野協商，再沒有共識，就送交院會表決決定，謝謝。","接著我們請范委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155855","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0db62a4cc3378860ed42df3203622d4e32bf18926ac575b5cbd02ad7df8a93d275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"15:00:49 - 15:08:23","影片長度":"00:07:34","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的一個版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話"},{"start":96.052,"end":106.399,"text":"對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方去做這樣就可以了"},{"start":110.842,"end":136.996,"text":"地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說"},{"start":137.836,"end":140.219,"text":"財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的"},{"start":155.3,"end":178.973,"text":"我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說賴恩榮委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦"},{"start":179.493,"end":197.619,"text":"但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會"},{"start":201.38,"end":225.689,"text":"工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個做這個建設的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧我這樣講對不對"},{"start":227.449,"end":242.694,"text":"對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本,為什麼呢?因為現在的版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短"},{"start":243.354,"end":271.722,"text":"然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想喔會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通"},{"start":272.482,"end":288.682,"text":"像捷運就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠?夠不夠用?就不夠這個也一定不夠?一定不夠社福的部分呢?社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢?"},{"start":289.703,"end":308.541,"text":"這樣會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書記,我想他會去通訪去做考量。因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋。那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分。其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助,這個是我們預估。"},{"start":310.583,"end":330.164,"text":"以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是"},{"start":330.725,"end":350.077,"text":"對。對。對。對。"},{"start":350.617,"end":373.363,"text":"對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁"},{"start":378.905,"end":395.975,"text":"以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啊"},{"start":396.595,"end":422.701,"text":"這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過我們本來有70幾個指標我們扣掉了20幾個就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的我們把它貶除掉了之後現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛這是本席的意見"},{"start":423.601,"end":425.703,"text":"所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識接著我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":452.438,"end":453.752,"text":"林業勤、林業勤、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（15時）有請次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長辛苦了，所有的立院同事大家好。我想先請教一下次長，歲計賸餘到底是不是一個穩定的財源？它會不會受到經濟景氣跟稅制調整的影響？將來如果經濟放緩之後，是不是稅收收入也有可能會減少？這會不會對我們政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力？"],["阮次長清華：有可能，因為歲計賸餘是我們的實徵數超過預算數，通常增加的就先用來還債，如果還債還的差不多以後，還有多的就擺在歲計賸餘，作為未來年度的財源使用，所以有時候景氣好跟景氣不好會影響到歲計賸餘的大小。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我再問一下，如果今天我們真的依照國民黨委員的版本，有22個版本，到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有一個比較具體的版本，如果就這樣強調財劃法一定要入法，對於將來，我們也期待臺灣不會有天災，也可能不會有疫情，在國防部分可能真的也不需要，以後都交給地方去做，這樣就可以了，是不是地方政府也不需要做這些？還是說他們只要跟中央要錢就好？您自己認為呢？"],["阮次長清華：要錢的話，跟他們要錢，他們當然也會argue嘛，對不對？不可能單純要錢，其實我們不是要錢，而是我們給他們那麼多錢，然後把它收回來，收回來的話，就是有一些……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，沒關係。"],["阮次長清華：我的意思是說，比如像本來中央負擔的事權……"],["郭委員昱晴：不是只有錢能夠解決這些事情，是吧？對吧，不是只有錢能夠解決這些事情，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，還有事權的問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛次長特別提到的，我們必須要注重分配的合理性……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為其實每一個縣市強調的都不太一樣，他們的指標，其實權重也都不同……"],["阮次長清華：對、對。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡，我聽到羅明才委員特別提到，他說賴瑞隆委員、蔡易餘委員，還有伍麗華委員也有自己的版本，但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下，其實就是為了要凸顯水平的指標，現在其實還沒有完整的統計……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：這其實是會有非常大的歧見跟難度。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：比方說，如果是農業縣市，農業縣市就會主張：我在犧牲我開發的機會耶！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：工業縣市可能講：我在用我的肺在進行發展，我也很辛苦……"],["阮次長清華：委員是專家，很清楚。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以其實在地方都還沒有統一，都還有歧見的狀況之下，剛剛我們講，就是急著要修法，真的有那麼重要嗎？不然25年當中，我們能修法，我們早就定了吧，我這樣講對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，我一直希望不要越修越差，這也是卓院長講的，如果還沒有更好的版本之前，現在的版本是最好的版本，為什麼呢？因為現在的版本有考慮到財政收支差短，然後它的水平分配又有一定的公平性，而且這幾年來地方政府拿到的這些經費也是逐年增加。"],["郭委員昱晴：一旦照他們的版本，我們來想一想，會不會擠壓到其他的部分，像是計畫性的補助？計畫性的補助其實早上的時候我有特別提到，比方說像交通、像捷運……"],["阮次長清華：將來那些拿回來就等於全部都是地方……"],["郭委員昱晴：夠不夠用？"],["阮次長清華：一定不夠。"],["郭委員昱晴：社福的部分呢？"],["阮次長清華：社福的部分也可以談嘛！都可以談，就是有一些就交給地方去做。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果像教育的部分呢？會不會擠壓到呢？"],["阮次長清華：這個可能涉及到主計總處，我想將來它會去通盤考量。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒關係，因為時間的關係，我們就不一一在這邊討論跟解釋。我們來看一下圖表的部分，這是114年地方政府編列中央對地方補助，這個是我們預估的，關於六都的部分，臺北市如果是一般補助加計畫補助，然後扣掉所謂一般性的補助，計畫性的補助看起來好像是比較少的，可是重點是這個計畫性的補助，其實我們臺北的交通方面，像我們臺北的捷運，是不是早就已經蓋好？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來，我剛剛有提到，委員也有提到，高雄為什麼可以有這麼多？因為現在高雄他們的捷運占了一百多億在裡面，所以其實並沒有比較多，而這個數字應該是次長你們這邊提供的，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，委員這個資料只限於中央對地方的補助，事實上，我們對地方財源的支援，包括統籌分配稅款、一般補助款、專案補助款，還有計畫型補助，這邊列的可能就只有一般補助跟計畫補助，沒有包括計畫型的補助，所以這個可能不是全面的。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為時間的關係，我再次強調，以目前我們在講的，到底有沒有這個急迫性，一定要在這邊修，還是我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點，大家有了共識之後，我們再來好好的修，畢竟這牽一髮動全身。"],["阮次長清華：是，我是覺得這個是長治久安的問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，而且我早上有提過，本來有七十幾個指標，我們扣掉了二十幾個，就是比較不具普遍性的、不具客觀的我們把它扣掉之後，現在有52個，其中有共識的只有5個……"],["阮次長清華：其實應該沒有那麼多……"],["郭委員昱晴：等於百分之九十以上的指標是沒有任何的共識，那急著逐條討論到底要幹嘛？這是本席的意見，謝謝次長，也謝謝主席。"],["阮次長清華：我覺得這個意見非常重要，我覺得一定要修，我贊成一定要修……"],["郭委員昱晴：沒有人反對要修，但問題是沒有共識就不能急啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是大家就是想辦法把那個制度弄得更好，比現制更好，這樣才是好的。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝次長，謝謝郭委員。對，所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識。","接著我們請林月琴委員，林月琴、林月琴，林月琴不在。","接著我們請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0b683555275d07ef2d42df3203622d4e32bf18926ac575b5c79765a1baf96e6b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"14:47:09 - 15:00:32","影片長度":"00:13:23","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T14:47:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T15:00:32+08:00","duration":803,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.72596875,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.054718750000003,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.847843750000003,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.754718750000002,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.83471875,"end":25.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.23784375,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.89034375,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.65346875,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.10784375,"end":52.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.45721875,"end":63.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.57409375,"end":63.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.73409375000001,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.69471875,"end":73.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.46659375,"end":79.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.52909375,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.61346875000001,"end":87.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":83.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.31721875000001,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.69659375,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.20284375,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.23659375000001,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.27034375000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.56909375000001,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.91909375,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.79221875,"end":96.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.80909375,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.98034375,"end":108.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.31784375000001,"end":125.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.16471875,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.55284375000001,"end":116.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.11784375,"end":119.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.13471875,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.92784375000001,"end":120.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.20534375000001,"end":145.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.73034375,"end":142.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.10971875,"end":144.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.76346875000002,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.82534375,"end":157.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.52971875,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.64784375000002,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.66471875000002,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.68159375000002,"end":156.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.73221875000002,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.86721875,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.21721875,"end":158.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.23409375,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.28471875,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.96971875,"end":189.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.72284375,"end":190.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.68034375000002,"end":193.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.39721875,"end":199.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.28659375,"end":201.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.50159375,"end":205.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.44159375,"end":208.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.51721875,"end":209.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.53409375,"end":217.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.45284375000003,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":223.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.02971875,"end":227.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.97846875000002,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.40284375000002,"end":243.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.09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:339.791,"end":361.93,"text":"還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值"},{"start":362.811,"end":378.706,"text":"一副人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4000多億的話"},{"start":380.347,"end":401.728,"text":"那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億,所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯,那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話,所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動嗎?幾乎都會受影響?都是完全攤掉了,那就講說我們...就剩下3000多億而已啊,這個幾乎很多都不能做了"},{"start":402.288,"end":430.879,"text":"那這個高價化更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢?可不可以優先來做呢?"},{"start":432.133,"end":434.115,"text":"我中央只剩下3000多億的情況下其實所有的計劃性補助就已經都沒有辦法"},{"start":452.774,"end":477.391,"text":"推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的受到影響全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說"},{"start":478.712,"end":490.63,"text":"如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢?"},{"start":492.863,"end":515.657,"text":"就是因為他的金額太大了,所以就是說他已經沒有辦法,已經沒有補救的一個空間,就是說他整個我們這一影響到整個政案這個走運算他是沒有辦法編不出來,因為他已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。產生嚴重的排擠,就是計畫都編不出來,那該怎麼辦呢?"},{"start":516.84,"end":544.34,"text":"所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多市政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過市權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓啊"},{"start":546.081,"end":560.841,"text":"就退讓,比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間"},{"start":563.143,"end":590.902,"text":"其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了"},{"start":591.642,"end":597.196,"text":"自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?"},{"start":598.849,"end":621.826,"text":"會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政。所以有一些,剛才我也跟委員報告,有可能,為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了。分了太多了。分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了。我想台南是在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市。"},{"start":623.627,"end":643.952,"text":"這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有只有就是台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題"},{"start":646.309,"end":665.314,"text":"對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那36%就給台北市"},{"start":669.415,"end":697.281,"text":"那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊"},{"start":698.641,"end":721.341,"text":"那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了"},{"start":722.262,"end":740.058,"text":"所以如果是照目前國民黨團的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧了你這個60幾%的人口的一個比例啊"},{"start":744.262,"end":765.107,"text":"我想這個是一個國家重大的財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年其實我們也知道啦就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的就是"},{"start":766.387,"end":788.458,"text":"這個漫不是說就不作為啦,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急你知道嗎,大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。"},{"start":790.96,"end":791.962,"text":"財政收支劃分法"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（14時47分）謝謝主席，請阮次長及陳副主計長。"],["主席：請阮次長及陳副主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：次長好。我延續剛剛林楚茵委員的議題，就是全臺灣23個縣市的溝通時間，因為我們知道你必須要兼顧到很多面向……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：等一下我會有幾個議題，不管是健保的議題還是本席存在的農水路補助的問題，因為我很怕114年我們這個預算在未來會是什麼樣的走向，這個都會影響到。整體來講的話，就是預算的問題跟財劃法的問題，我想有沒有關係？看起來也是沒有關係，看起來也是有關係……"],["阮次長清華：就是……"],["賴委員惠員：其實是連動的。"],["阮次長清華：當然會連動，但是因為假定今天修的話，應該最快也是115年才會開始調整嘛！"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：基本上是這樣。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為到了115年才會開始實施，還是就是會……"],["阮次長清華：因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛！"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：所以不可能114年，最快的話也是115年。"],["賴委員惠員：最快會是115年？"],["阮次長清華：最快115年。"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們做得比較周全的話，會是116年？"],["阮次長清華：這個……"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們花更多的時間去做比較精密的調查……因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的問題，還有那個權，你的權重，你的事情要誰來做啊！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那個錢分配了以後，事情要由誰來做？這個非常重要的。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我請教你，如果我現在講老農津貼，像在臺南的老農津貼跟彰化的老農津貼，如果財劃法這樣子劃下去的話，他們職業一樣都是農人，他們會有相同的老農津貼嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：會不會？"],["阮次長清華：所以我說老農津貼，因為我剛才講……"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我現在問你的是，臺南跟彰化一樣都是老農津貼，這兩個其實都是農人，他們領的錢會不會像現在是一致性的？"],["阮次長清華：這個我是不是請主計總處來說明，好不好？"],["賴委員惠員：好，來，副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，老農津貼目前是一致的，但是如果未來我們下放給地方政府，地方政府獲得的財源比較多以後，它會不會加碼，這存有未來產生不一致的可能。"],["賴委員惠員：好，副座，我請問你，如果一個是直轄市、一個是縣，我們可以預期臺南會分的多，彰化會分的少，是不是這樣子呢？這也不一定是這樣算，因為財劃法，人口數占了一個非常重要的基準，67%，如果是這樣子的話，反而是臺南的農民不值錢了，我可不可以這樣講？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：要看最後是怎麼分配，所以水平分配就會變得非常重要。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊，你這個計算方式的話，這67%是人口的比例，如果是水平分配，你這樣分配出去了，本來中央在管的時候，大家都是一致的，全臺灣的農民，即使是離島的農民，大家領的都是一樣的，你這個財劃法一劃下去的時候，其實大概每一個縣市都不一樣了，這個情形會不會發生呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：有可能發生。"],["賴委員惠員：是有可能，還是一定會？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是大家分的不一樣，當然一定會發生。"],["賴委員惠員：是嘛，所以我們講的就是，錢我們必須要分配，是水平還是垂直？可是相對的，這些事情你要怎麼分配呢？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告一下，目前農保跟勞健保是由中央在負擔，所以沒有分下去的問題，我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西？最主要是，比如像國民黨版，它因為釋出的金額太大，影響中央的施政，我們勢必有一些支出要拉回來，所以才會扯到勞保、健保跟農保的問題，目前這些是中央在負擔，將來如果動的話，就會涉及到修法的問題，也就是說除了……"],["賴委員惠員：好，阮次，我再請教你，你已經講得非常清楚了，你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的。"],["阮次長清華：是中央在分攤的。"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們的財政收支劃分法落實下去了以後，我們不要講未來，就這幾年中央重大的施政計畫經費編列情形，你們希望怎麼來因應？撥補台電的這一個我不問，我要問健保財務的協助，還有最重要的就是，我比較想知道的，就是你這個健保財務協助的方式，你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的支付專案，這個會受影響喔！還有提升醫療的智慧化、罕見疾病的用藥、醫院的三班輪值夜護人員、醫護人員的直接獎勵，還有三班護病比的評比標準，這個獎勵也會受影響欸！"],["阮次長清華：對，跟委員報告，因為假定按照國民黨版，額外釋出四千多億的話，中央可以用的經費大概只剩下三千多億……"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：這個會影響到中央很多的施政，所以剛才……"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，如果是三千多億的話，所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都推不動了。"],["阮次長清華：幾乎都會受影響。"],["賴委員惠員：都會完全癱掉了，就說我們……"],["阮次長清華：就只剩下三千多億而已，幾乎很多都不能做了，所以我們……"],["賴委員惠員：那這個高架化更不用講了，可是我比較在乎的就是，像114年這個生活圈道路交通系統的建設計畫，這個只有138億，是不是可以優先來做？還是我們的農田水利跨域整合永續發展計畫？這個只有50億……"],["阮次長清華：這部分我是不是……"],["賴委員惠員：可不可以提前來做呢？"],["阮次長清華：這是不是請副主計長來說明，好不好？"],["賴委員惠員：可不可以優先來做呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，我們現在如果釋放4,000億給地方，它馬上就直接衝擊到我們的歲出，所以剛剛阮次長有說了，在中央只剩下三千多億的情況下，其實所有的計畫型補助就已經沒有辦法推動了，其他的一些剛剛委員所提到的各項相關措施也都會連帶受到影響，所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應，就變成也沒有所謂可以先做哪一個，幾乎就全面性的……"],["賴委員惠員：就沒有先後的一個問題了。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：全面性的受到影響。"],["賴委員惠員：如果這樣子全面性的受影響，你們有沒有想到一些比較適合的，可以去補救的計畫呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為它的金額太大了，所以已經沒有辦法，已經沒有補救的空間，它影響到整個中央政府總預算，它沒有辦法，編不出來，因為計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。"],["賴委員惠員：產生嚴重的排擠，計畫都編不出來，那該怎麼辦呢？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，這也是我們說的額外釋出四千多億，當然一定要拉回四千多億，要不然中央根本很多施政都沒辦法推動，國防、社福很多完全都不能動，所以基本上還是要透過事權的重新分配，從地方把它拉回來。另外一個方式，就看各黨團願不願退讓，比如它現在釋出四千多億，可不可以它退讓到一定的程度，這樣我們就不用拉回那麼多。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的？"],["阮次長清華：這個可能要再精算一下。"],["賴委員惠員：你們精算要多久時間？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個跟事權……"],["賴委員惠員：其實我們知道這個精算用的時間是不多，問題是跟地方政府的溝通，這個其實是最重要。"],["阮次長清華：對，最重要是在這裡，尤其事權怎麼劃分，很麻煩是在這裡，如果單純的算很容易。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我們都知道，如果這樣子財劃法的分配，顯然看起來地方政府的自主性變大了，所以地方財政的支出會不會僵化？"],["阮次長清華：會不會怎麼樣？"],["賴委員惠員：會不會僵化了？就是地方的財政。"],["阮次長清華：僵化地方的……"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：所以剛才我也跟委員報告有可能，為什麼呢？因為有一些是分了太多了，分了太多就可能會亂花啦，我直接講白一點。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我想臺南市是六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：就是歲出跟歲入，其實我們如果就預算的規模，雖然我們比16個縣市還高，可是同樣是直轄市，我們才只有臺北市的一半，你要講是我臺南比較不努力嗎？不會啊！其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的問題……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那有沒有什麼比較好的方式，讓我們覺得是比較公平的？"],["阮次長清華：就是指標去調整，所以這個也是我們在努力的方向，因為目前國民黨的黨版，它67%是用人口來分配，10%就平均分配，這樣就占了77%啦！然後3%又給臺北市，另外10%才來分配，我是覺得這樣子完全沒有考慮到差短，我們是說彌補收支差短的問題，我們財劃法最根本的精神就是優先彌補收支差短嘛，讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面……"],["賴委員惠員：所以，阮次也提到了一個問題，就像我們臺南來講，有一半的人口其實是從事農業。"],["阮次長清華：是啊！"],["賴委員惠員：你看台積電所有公司的登記，它不是在新竹就在臺北，可是它很多的工廠是在我這個地方啊！其實它的工廠總登記不是登記在我的臺南，我收不到這些稅收啊，可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法處罰了。"],["阮次長清華：所以如果是照目前國民黨版的話，真的有可能會變成沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的彌補收支差短，因為它太重視人口了，而臺南人口相對比較少……"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！是啊！"],["阮次長清華：所以一定相對比較吃虧。"],["賴委員惠員：這個六十幾%的人口比例啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，對，對，而且10%……"],["賴委員惠員：阮次、副座，我想這是一個國家重大的財政問題，我們共同來……"],["阮次長清華：所以我才說要長治久安啦，這個東西大家一定要好好去思考，如果急的話，分配以後真的要改就很難，我們過去花了25年……"],["賴委員惠員：其實我們也知道啦，你還是事緩則圓，就是要慢慢的……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：這個慢不是說不作為……"],["阮次長清華：是，當然。"],["賴委員惠員：還是要有作為啦。"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["賴委員惠員：因為大家也急，你知道嗎？大家也急，認為財劃法25年沒有修了，中間修了5次，其實後來都沒有辦法實施，當然它有它的困難在，我們當然希望用一個比較精準的方式。再一次謝謝主席，也謝謝兩位。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員。","如果照阮次所說的，這樣子錢撥比較多下去就會充分落實地方自治、地方決定做什麼，然後這樣就可以達到主權在民的理念。如果各位委員對各縣市有意見，比如說賴委員就可以提出對臺南市比較有利的版本嘛，我們會併案審查。好，謝謝。","接著請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0e6b2573f9a0ce474d42df3203622d4e32bf18926ac575b5c7c486be96b1f74445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"14:37:08 - 14:46:58","影片長度":"00:09:50","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T14:37:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T14:46:58+08:00","duration":590,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.24096875,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.274093750000002,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.42159375,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.552218750000002,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.822218750000001,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.974093750000002,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.55034375,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.27409375,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.10034375,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.416593750000004,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.90159375,"end":45.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.17159375,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.72409375,"end":51.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.752843750000004,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.73784375000001,"end":69.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.72471875000001,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.90596875,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.35659375,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.07346875,"end":79.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.47846875,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.77346875,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.96284375,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.44284375000001,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.28971875,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.99346875,"end":105.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.53159375000001,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.88596875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.83846875,"end":126.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.20534375000001,"end":126.59346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.59346875000001,"end":127.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.77471875,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.60971875,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.34721875,"end":136.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.62034375000002,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.83971875,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.49721875,"end":178.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.17096875000001,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.19721875000002,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.23096875000002,"end":216.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.18721875,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.76471875000001,"end":233.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.14221875,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.42909375000002,"end":263.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.24221875,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.38034375,"end":248.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.65221875000003,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.98971875,"end":269.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.02284375,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.52471875000003,"end":287.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.34471875,"end":293.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.94346875,"end":290.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.89221875000004,"end":348.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.65471875000003,"end":328.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.43221875,"end":352.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.66784375000003,"end":382.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.93034375,"end":373.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.92534375,"end":379.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","sta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那堅持不下怎麼辦?話跑到他肯來是來抽籤?就是有些縣市就很堅持,我舉個例子,比如說現在各縣市分配的時候都會有一些比如說像一些指標,比如說營利事業所的額。"},{"start":427.253,"end":444.243,"text":"現在你說的堅持的指標當中最容易有明顯的比較大分歧的是什麼?營利是營所稅?營所稅的分配?就是分配那我最大的稅務就是所額稅對不對?所額稅那麼就稅源比較豐富了他一定希望說這個"},{"start":445.043,"end":447.665,"text":"財政部或主計處時間點讓我們知道我們接下來如果要做主條討論的時候沒有這些"},{"start":467.998,"end":489.547,"text":"原則沒有這些各縣市的我身為一個雖然說我是全國不分區啦齁但是我總不能說因為我住台北或是我的有親人我有我媽媽這邊是在苗栗我爸爸這邊在台南我到時候做什麼我都有偏頗啊所以我需要數據我要各個西方縣、縣市政府他們能夠接受的範圍我才能來做一個佐證啊"},{"start":490.447,"end":510.288,"text":"是,包委員,這個基本上我們會努力來做,但是我是覺得是說,你給我一個假定一個時間,假定我今天承諾一個時間但是如果到那個時候還是大家沒有共識的話,拿出來的東西還是沒有意義那這樣逐條無法進行喔,這樣子我覺得會卡住喔"},{"start":510.708,"end":512.828,"text":"好,因為主席站起來了,主席不好意思,最後10秒鐘我就結束,好。"},{"start":539.676,"end":555.152,"text":"就像我們當時討論屯房稅一樣我們就是必須要行文然後必須要能夠有具體的往前一步不然我們在中央修這個法地方不服趕快變那我要告訴我要提醒軟刺喔"},{"start":555.832,"end":573.365,"text":"地方其實國民黨執政縣市至少13、14個縣市然後民進黨其實不多然後民眾黨也有這些東西是如果大家各執己見最後整個是撕裂是討論不下去的所以本席就是直接請你們要把具體的結論談出來才能夠進行逐條討論"},{"start":580.584,"end":586.887,"text":"財政部事在人為我們反正有各地的民意代表單一選區都有民意代表會來表達意見"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（14時37分）謝謝主席，辛苦了，從早上到下午，有請阮次跟主計長。"],["主席：到晚上也沒關係。請阮次長。主計長去朝野協商。"],["林委員楚茵：去朝野協商囉！"],["主席：請副主計長。"],["林委員楚茵：副主計長，好，沒有問題。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：阮次，我想過去四年不是在這個質詢臺上第一次跟您詢問了，為什麼今天到現在我們還會以廣泛討論為主，而且我一定要來發言？就是因為這一次財劃法一共有多少個版本？"],["阮次長清華：22個版本。"],["林委員楚茵：22個版本，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["林委員楚茵：目前這些版本之間的差異主要有哪幾大項？"],["阮次長清華：差異其實都滿多的，但是基本上大部分的版本都只處理垂直分配的問題，沒有處理水平分配的問題、也沒有處理事權分配的問題。"],["林委員楚茵：其實本席會問這個就是因為垂直分配重要，因為地方都說我們不要中央恩典、要有自己的自主權，這個我同意，但是垂直分配之外的水平分配其實也非常的重要。"],["阮次長清華：非常重要。"],["林委員楚茵：更不要說我們知道，所謂錢是隨著事權轉移，如果沒有溝通好的話，我相信各個地方政府首長要直接面對選民的檢驗了，最怕是什麼？拿錢不辦事，或是拿了錢辦不好事！我覺得我們身為中央的民意代表更承受不起，因為我們現在修的法規，就像我過去四年在財委會的時候，當時我們講到囤房稅的問題，當時是怎麼樣？中央修法然後要來決定地方囤房稅的稅率，我想你應該還記得。"],["阮次長清華：記得。"],["林委員楚茵：當時我們財委會不分藍、綠、白，大家的專業在那裡，就是沒有任何顏色的問題，這是專業的問題，中央修了一個法規要地方吞、要地方用，你就要跟地方溝通。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["林委員楚茵：那麼我就請問了，現在關於地方上面的溝通，剛剛您講到垂直分配的數額、水平分配的項目以及事權上面的劃分，這三點做好溝通了嗎？溝通了沒有？有沒有一個一個去溝通？我要強調的是一個一個！因為每一個縣市的狀況，從人口、從稅收、從整個產業結構來看是不一樣的。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["林委員楚茵：請問你們溝通了哪些縣市？做了哪些溝通？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們目前溝通的部分剛才也報告過，就是只針對分配的指標來進行溝通啦！這個指標基本上是針對水平分配的溝通，因為現在這個指標讓有些縣市會比較吃虧，所以我們希望大家能夠有共識，能夠把這個水平的指標弄得更公平一點，我們現在處理的這一部分，可以說是水平的這一部分，至於垂直的部分……"],["林委員楚茵：水平的部分溝通了，是每個縣市都溝通嗎？大家都可以接受嗎？"],["阮次長清華：都有溝通，22個縣市都溝通過，但是我剛才也報告過，現在大概還有兩個問題，一個就是權重的問題，另外一個就是還有3個指標大家還沒有共識。"],["林委員楚茵：阮次講到重點了，講到指標，沒有人想要得罪人，更沒有人希望指標是落後的，如果根據現行的版本，這個指標大家都挑自己有利的，我就舉個例子，從北的基隆到南的屏東，如果大家可以挑指標，誰會挑那個對自己不利的指標？如果每一個人都挑最有利的指標，每一個都特優、每一個都第一名，那回歸到最後不是又一樣！所有縣市大家把這一塊餅拿來又來除……那這個指標有意義嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對，所以民眾黨版的問題就在這裡，就是它都是用最有利標，最有利標的結果就是每一個縣市都提出最有利的指標出來，每一個都這樣提，最後的結果是什麼？就平均分配。"],["林委員楚茵：本席很希望是就事論事，但是剛剛我舉出來的這幾個例子，我就會認為財政部又或者是主計單位，因為主計單位未來要做出衡量指標或者是分配，即所謂檢視者的過程當中，這些指標由中央訂定法令、立法委員訂定法令之後，地方如果窒礙難行，不要說一個法定在那裡，結果無法好好實施，又或者是指標偏頗，又或者是指標形同虛設，那我就會認為這必須要好好的來從長計議……"],["阮次長清華：是，這個……"],["林委員楚茵：所以本席具體要求，希望財政部能夠回去，把你們現在跟各個縣市從垂直分配、水平分配的指標，再到我們講的事權轉移，尤其是錢，隨事權轉移的時候，他們有沒有能力做到，包括我還沒有提到地方是無法來處理國防這樣的建設或是跨縣市的交通建設，我們只要是包括補貼、津貼，這種他們人手夠嗎？","所以我希望你們要好好的把溝通的狀況做具體的報告，接下來我們在修法、逐條的時候會遇到的問題，都必須要有數字能夠佐證。財政部能不能在我們逐條之前，先把這些都釐清？否則的話，我們逐條要怎麼審？本席還會再來這裡喔！"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，所以這一定要給我們充分的時間，所以……"],["林委員楚茵：你需要多少時間溝通？全臺有這麼多縣市，現在本席在這邊就廣泛討論，所以就要提出一個時程，不然的話，主席在這裡，我相信主席今天花這麼多的時間陪我們一起審，還要到禮拜三，結果到時候又很空泛地，要怎麼樣進行逐條討論？你需要多少時間，你說。"],["阮次長清華：這個時間我真的很難在這邊說明，為什麼？因為每一個縣市都有它堅持的地方，這是我們……"],["林委員楚茵：那堅持不下怎麼辦？討價還價還是來抽籤？"],["阮次長清華：有些縣市就很堅持，我舉個例子，比如現在各縣市分配的時候都會有一些，比如說像一些指標，比如說營利事業所得……"],["林委員楚茵：現在你說的堅持的指標當中，最容易有明顯的、比較大分歧的是什麼？營所稅？營所稅的分配？"],["阮次長清華：我剛才講的像權重嘛，對不對？"],["林委員楚茵：權重。"],["阮次長清華：就是分配，我最大的稅目就是所得稅，對不對？那麼稅源比較豐富的，它一定希望說這個指標權重高一點……"],["林委員楚茵：多留一點在我的縣市嘛！我為什麼要給別的縣市嘛！對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對！"],["林委員楚茵：那像這些，我需要一個時間，3個月、6個月還是多久可以溝通好？我知道主席站起來了，但是我相信主席知道我問的其實是很關鍵的一個問題，我們逐條很可能就卡在這些地方，所以我需要財政部或主計處說一個時間點，讓我們知道，我們接下來如果要逐條討論的時候，沒有這些原則、沒有這些各縣市的意見，我身為一個立委，雖然我是全國不分區，但是我總不能說因為我住臺北，或是我的親人，我媽媽是在苗栗、我爸爸是在臺南，我到時候做什麼都有偏頗啊！所以我需要數據，我要各個地方縣市政府能夠接受的範圍，我才能來佐證啊！"],["阮次長清華：是，報告委員，基本上我們會努力來做，但是假定我今天承諾一個時間，如果到那個時候大家還是沒有共識的話，拿出來的東西還是沒有意義。"],["林委員楚茵：這樣逐條無法進行喔！這樣子我覺得會卡住喔！"],["阮次長清華：對，所以我們是儘量來做。這個東西為什麼會那麼難？為什麼財劃法搞了25年到現在都沒有修？其實問題就是大家各持己見，大家都用自己的角度去思考，所以我常常就跟各縣市的地方首長講，大家各讓一步，大家都各讓一步的話，大家都增加，因為我們有一個原則……"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為主席站起來了，主席，不好意思，最後10秒鐘我就結束。就像我們當時討論囤房稅一樣，我們就是必須要行文，然後必須要能夠具體的往前一步，不然我們在中央修這個法，地方不服，一樣會反。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["林委員楚茵：我要提醒阮次，地方其實國民黨執政縣市至少13、14個縣市，民進黨其實不多，然後民眾黨也有，這些東西如果大家各持己見，最後整個是撕裂，是討論不下去的。"],["阮次長清華：是啊！"],["林委員楚茵：所以本席就是直接請你們把具體的結論討論出來，才能夠進行逐條討論。"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，我們努力。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。財政部，事在人為，我們反正有各地的民意代表，單一選區都有民意代表會來表達意見……"],["阮次長清華：盡全力了，好不好？"],["主席：對，你們如果沒有辦法，我們立法院是進步的立法院，一定會帶領你們前進，不用擔心。","請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0b2a080db18246d46d42df3203622d4e32bf18926ac575b5c2147291ad16064825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"14:30:25 - 14:36:52","影片長度":"00:06:27","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T14:30:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T14:36:52+08:00","duration":387,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.459093750000001,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.06159375,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.43596875,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.674718750000004,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.94846875,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.97596875,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.65659375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.73596875,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.64534375000001,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.50409375000001,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.13596875,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.89159375,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.58159375,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.95784375000002,"end":171.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.08221875,"end":195.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.30846875,"end":213.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.44909375,"end":219.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.37221875,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.41346875000002,"end":225.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.06659375,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.09159375000002,"end":233.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.44096875000002,"end":295.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.86721875,"end":265.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.36034375,"end":303.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.07284375,"end":299.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.76409375000003,"end":309.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.19346875,"end":335.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.63409375000003,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.48534375,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.67471875,"end":335.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.97846875000005,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.47971875,"end":341.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.14534375,"end":348.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.12409375000004,"end":372.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.19096875,"end":354.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.39284375,"end":357.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.74159375000005,"end":368.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.95159375000003,"end":373.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.89659375,"end":380.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.69721875000005,"end":381.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.27096875,"end":381.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.49034375,"end":381.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.81096875000003,"end":383.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.90346875,"end":387.46409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.555,"end":0.975,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席那我想要邀請我們的財政部次長我們請論次長委員好"},{"start":28.674,"end":53.661,"text":"謝謝次長那我想因為其實今天早上已經有非常多的委員包括我自己我們都在強調一件事情總預算很重要這個事情排序應該是最重要的一件事情而不是現在來修這個財劃法那也有非常多的委員其實我在這個早上聽大家的發言的時候也學習了非常多那其實大家一直在強調一件事情財政紀律因為各縣市的差異非常的大"},{"start":55.221,"end":77.662,"text":"過去也非常多的這個剛剛也有很多的委員都有提到就是在拿這個中央的預算去做綁裝或是說原本這是要給教師的就後來就是去聘請正式老師就後來全部都綁了去做別的使用然後最後變成就是只能用代理老師來處理那我自己想要特別針對我自己過去比較關注的這個教育的這個領域就是說目前呢按照"},{"start":78.963,"end":101.087,"text":"這個中央這個按照國民黨的版本現在中央只剩下3689億元那這個經費如果扣除軍備預算11年是2945億元之後所剩無幾嘛那過去呢其實在中教育部呢在2022年到2025年其實有推動一個叫做深深用平板的專案那4年總共投入了200億來讓各縣市的"},{"start":104.557,"end":105.679,"text":"採購相關的資訊設備,像是平板電腦、教學軟體等等來進行數位的轉型。"},{"start":111.332,"end":135.235,"text":"同時也在2027年7月之後推出全國中小學班班有冷氣的政策並且投入了357億的中央補助款首先不論在都市或鄉村都有冷氣的學習環境所以我想請教次長的就是說如果照國民黨的版本那今天這些肺炎勢必就會回到縣市政府要自行的來去籌劃跟規劃可能就不一定"},{"start":135.996,"end":162.188,"text":"全國能夠一起來開辦這樣我們剛剛講的深深有平板或是半半有冷氣的政策所以我想請教一下這樣是不是會造成以你們的專業來看這樣是不是就會造成所謂的一個城鄉差距的問題呢?就剛才委員指教了就是關於這個稅數的問題待會再麻煩請這個主席總書這時候說明那我另外就是跟委員做一個簡單的一個說明就是說"},{"start":163.008,"end":184.6,"text":"如果根據目前的國民黨版的話那釋出的金額是4080億元那如果照這樣分配如果假定水平分配沒有變動的話就有大概8個地方政府他的分配的金額會超過他稅出的百分之百"},{"start":185.5,"end":213.511,"text":"換句話說呢就是等於是說他拿到的錢比他所需要的更多所以就會造成這可能會財政紀律的一些疑慮的問題啦對那我想問一下啊因為其實就是變成說他拿到中央的錢可是他沒有確實的去若以現在的話我們是可以去要求嘛但是如果他現在呢他就自己拿去了可是我們事權的討論沒有確認清楚的時候當他挪用的時候其實我們是不是也沒有辦法的來去怎麼樣子去要求他是"},{"start":214.091,"end":238.202,"text":"基本上就是錢跟權一定要並來討論嘛那我想問一下因為這件事情事關重大中央跟地方就像很多委員都有說是個夥伴關係所以我想確認一下因為剛才講到事權的討論非常重要那我們現在跟各個縣市已經開始進行討論了嗎?當錢拿回去給他了之後有多少縣市他們是有一致性的共識呢?"},{"start":238.662,"end":256.419,"text":"這一部分還沒有開始進行討論,還沒有進行溝通。我們現在進行溝通的最主要是針對分配的指標那一部分來做討論。那一部分我們也很努力去做。本來各縣市提供的指標大概有80個。"},{"start":258.1,"end":284.401,"text":"80個我們經過兩次的開會討論再加上私底下的溝通那目前大概已經慢慢的收斂慢慢的聚焦那現在只剩下幾個部分一個是權重的問題權重的問題還要再討論另外就是比如說像有些再生能源或者是防止污染或者是說其他的比如說像這個稅出的那部分要不要納進來的問題這部分還要再溝通"},{"start":287.783,"end":309.081,"text":"我們目前做的是這一塊至於跟地方政府有關這個事權分配這一塊我們目前是還沒有開始進行好,那我想問一下根據市長您的專業判斷就是說如果我們要進行這些溝通大概你覺得預估還需要多久的時間呢時間我覺得很難預料最主要就是說要有共識"},{"start":310.262,"end":332.575,"text":"如果大家都沒有共識的話你溝通再久也沒有辦法這也是為什麼我們財化法過去25年來那5次送到大院來為什麼沒辦法有共識的原因在這裡因為大家都從自己角度出發那我們現在就是說假定就是說國民黨版的話要釋出4千多億因為這個對中央的影響會非常大"},{"start":336.237,"end":364.422,"text":"對。非常大。所以一定要有這個就是假定要有扣回來的這個機制嘛。對。扣回來機制。扣回來機制的話就是代表健保啦或者是這個像榮寶啦等這些。好。了解。因為我現在聽起來就是說我們好像要協調跟地方要做很多的溝通啊。是。這個要溝通。其實還差距非常非常大啦。謝謝。那我想啊就是說如果我們現在差距在非常大的狀況之下要來進行貿然做這些修法的討論我想這的確是一個"},{"start":365.542,"end":386.174,"text":"還需要審慎思考的地方,謝謝那接下來主席那希望稍後主席也不要對我的發言做任何的評論,謝謝主席好,謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員我不會對你做評論財政部要趕快緊急共識動作要加快好,是我是要求財政部要尊重立法院也要趕快的來前進"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（14時30分）謝謝主席，我想要邀請我們的財政部次長。"],["主席：我們請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝次長。因為其實今天早上已經有非常多的委員，包括我自己，我們都在強調一件事情，總預算很重要，這個事情的排序應該是最重要的一件事情，而不是現在來修這個財劃法。","我在早上聽大家發言的時候也學習了非常多，其實大家一直在強調一件事情──財政紀律，因為各縣市的差異非常的大，剛剛也有很多的委員都有提到，過去也有非常多拿這個中央的預算去綁樁，或是說原本這是要用於聘請正式老師，結果後來全部都把它拿去做別的使用，最後變成就只能用代理老師來處理。我自己想要特別針對我自己過去比較關注的教育領域，目前按照國民黨的版本，現在中央只剩下3,689億元，這個經費扣除114年的軍備預算2,945億元之後所剩無幾。過去教育部在2022年到2025年有推動一個叫做「生生用平板」的專案，4年總共投入了200億來讓各縣市採購相關的資訊設備，像平板電腦、教學軟體等等，來進行數位轉型；同時也在2020年7月之後推出全國中小學「班班有冷氣」的政策，並且投入了357億的中央補助款，讓學生不論在都市或鄉村的學習環境都有冷氣。","如果照國民黨的版本，今天這些費用勢必就會回到縣市政府要自行去籌劃跟規劃，可能就不一定全國能夠一起來開辦像我們剛剛講的「生生有平板」或是「班班有冷氣」的政策，所以我想請教次長，以你們的專業來看，這樣是不是就會造成所謂城鄉差距的問題呢？"],["阮次長清華：剛才委員指教的是關於歲出的問題，待會再麻煩主計總處說明，我另外跟委員簡單說明，如果根據目前的國民黨版的話，中央釋出的金額是4,080億元，如果假定水平分配沒有變動的話，大概有8個地方政府分配的金額會超過它歲出的百分之百，換句話說就等於它拿到的錢比它所需要的更多，所以可能就會造成有一些財政紀律疑慮的問題。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我想問一下，就變成說它拿中央的錢，可是它有沒有確實的去執行，如果以現在的狀況，我們可以去要求，但是如果之後它就自己拿去了，可是我們事權的討論沒有確認清楚，當它挪用的時候，我們是不是也沒有辦法去要求它？"],["阮次長清華：是，基本上錢跟權一定要一併來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，因為這件事情事關重大，就像很多的委員都有說，中央跟地方是夥伴關係，所以我想確認一下，剛才講到事權的討論非常重要，那我們現在跟各個縣市已經開始進行討論了嗎？當錢拿回去給它之後，有多少縣市他們是有一致性的共識呢？"],["阮次長清華：這一部分還沒有開始進行討論，還沒有進行溝通，我們現在進行溝通最主要是針對分配的指標那一部分來討論。針對那一部分我們也很努力去做了，本來各縣市提供的指標大概有80個，我們經過兩次開會討論，再加上私底下的溝通，目前大概已經慢慢在收斂、慢慢在聚焦，現在只剩下幾個部分，一個是權重的問題，權重的問題還要再討論；另外，比如像有些再生能源、防治污染或者是說其他的，例如歲出那一部分要不要納進來的問題，這一部分還要再溝通，我們目前做的是這一塊。至於跟地方政府有關的事權分配這一塊，我們目前還沒有開始進行。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我想問一下，根據次長您的專業判斷，如果我們要進行這些溝通，你預估大概還需要多久的時間呢？"],["阮次長清華：時間我覺得很難預料，最主要就是要有共識，如果大家都沒有共識的話，溝通再久也沒有辦法，這也是為什麼我們財劃法過去二十五年五次送到大院來卻沒辦法有共識的原因，因為大家都從自己的角度出發。現在假定是國民黨版的話要釋出四千多億，這個對中央的影響會非常大，所以一定要假定有扣回來的機制，扣回來的機制大概就是勞健保或者是農保等等。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，我現在聽起來就是我們好像要協調、跟地方要做很多的溝通……"],["阮次長清華：是，這些都要溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：其實差距非常、非常大啦，謝謝。如果我們現在在差距非常大的狀況之下要貿然來進行這些修法的討論，我想這的確是一個還需要審慎思考的地方。"],["阮次長清華：是！"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。那也謝謝主席，希望稍後主席也不要對我的發言做任何的評論，謝謝主席。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，我不會對你做評論。財政部要趕快凝聚共識、動作要加快。"],["阮次長清華：好，是。"],["主席：我是要求財政部要尊重立法院，也要趕快的前進、帶領國家前進，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：儘量、儘量啦，但是要看地方政府的態度，我們……"],["主席：那你們要加油啊！"],["阮次長清華：我們這邊要啟動很簡單。"],["主席：對，凡事豫則立，不豫則廢，加油！","接著請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：今天討論憲法訴訟法，因為大法官的職責是解釋憲法，所以人數非常、非常的重要，人民要修憲，依中華民國憲法增修條文第十二條規定，憲法之修改，須經立法院立法委員四分之一之提議，四分之三之出席，還要出席委員四分之三的決議。四分之三這比例很高，而且還要經過人民的投票複決，副秘書長，對不對？","所以憲法的制定、修正都是經過人民，而目前的現況是怎麼樣呢？我們的大法官不尊重人民的決議、不重視人民的決議，為什麼這樣說呢？我就舉111年憲判字第17號為例，這個憲判字第17號就是針對平埔族群的認定，它認為是原住民族。聯合國原住民族權利宣言第三十三條規定，原住民族有權按照其習俗及傳統，決定自己的身分或歸屬。憲法增修條文第十條第十二項規定，國家應依民族意願，保障原住民族之地位。原住民族基本法也規定，在制定法律或實施司法程序的時候，應尊重原住民族。憲法判決是實施憲法的訴訟，也沒有去徵詢原住民族的意見。","我們看最重要的就是憲法，憲法當初中華民國憲法在修憲的時候，民國81年國民大會第2次修憲，憲法增修條文第十八條第六項對於自由地區的山胞權益的規範，當時的國大代表吳清桂，還有翁文德提出要把平埔族納入山胞，經過國民大會四分之三的決議，沒有納入啊！沒有納入啊！這是人民的意見、民意。民國83年第3次修憲的時候，將山胞正名為原住民，當時國大代表吳清桂等65人提案要把平埔族納入原住民族，經過國民大會四分之三的決議，四分之三的國大代表代表全國人民排除，沒有納入，結果呢？幾位大法官就決定了。","如果我們看這個歷史，平埔族在清朝到日治時期，生番、熟番是不同的；從清朝到日治時期、到中華民國政府都是分開的，現在有很多臺灣的人，閩南人他不承認他是閩南人，他不承認他是漢族，也不過是幾十年而已，我們是從清朝開始就分開的，從法律來看，清朝的法律大清律例明定，民越界入生番地視同出盜越關塞，日本也是一樣。所以這個部分我要說的是，憲法訴訟法當然這個人數很重要，不然少數人去決定，就如同憲法明定的原住民族變成少數的大法官去做決定，就是用這個例子來告訴大家，這個是非常、非常重要的一個條文。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復，請相關機關儘速交給個別委員或本會。委員傅崐萁所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，請相關機關以書面回復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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那有請這個副秘書長麻煩副秘委員好好 那副秘書長好那因為我不是本委所以這只有四分鐘所以我快速問一下就是說因為剛剛講了那麼久那你剛剛有些地方可能沒有辦法回答到第一個就是民意基礎那我想問一下就是說這個副秘書長我們的總統是不是民選的"},{"start":32.722,"end":34.088,"text":"總統如果是民選的那總統有沒有民意基礎?"},{"start":39.789,"end":61.987,"text":"當然民選當然有民意基礎對所以呢我覺得這個今天在討論的事情有點奇怪就是說呢講到好像只有某一區譬如說是大安區的選民才有民意基礎羅志強才有民意基礎其他人都沒有民意基礎那如果是今天沒有投給他的人也不算民意基礎這個論理其實非常的奇怪但我這邊我還是要再提醒一下就是說如果我們按照剛剛他們這樣的一個說法"},{"start":64.249,"end":79.871,"text":"今天大法官今天被總統提名之後他有一定的這個民意基礎的人去提名他然後由立法院大家的投下同意票也有一定的民意基礎變成了大法官那問題是大法官最後在做決定的時候是根據他的專業還是根據民意"},{"start":82.617,"end":99.217,"text":"當然我想大法官在做成決議的時候當然是以他對憲法以他的專業對憲法的本質的這個認知去那不會說全部說以那個因為民意的多數票少數去做決議的不是這個樣子"},{"start":100.058,"end":117.317,"text":"我們今天其實不是只有大法官這樣我們法官在判案的時候也都是根據法律的原理原則在判案如果我們要講究這一些民意基礎的話是不是以後我們法官在宣判的時候都可以請羅志祥委員在旁邊審核一下太好了我肯定這一個判決然後再把判決判出去"},{"start":118.098,"end":144.363,"text":"所以其實但是而且我們在選立法委員的時候立法委員的確有民意基礎有一個選區多數的選民投給他但投給他也是因為他具備一定的專業所以他在用他的專業在國會殿堂上面去決定大法官的人是應該如何所以譬如說像今天吳宗憲委員在這一個質詢的時候他至少他就是根據我認為憲判的哪一個字號我認為大法官這邊的決定我不太認同"},{"start":145.483,"end":171.412,"text":"這就是他用他的專業去看說那我認不認同這個大法官的人選或者說這個未來的方向我覺得這才是一個正常的討論所以因為剛剛可能都沒有什麼時間回答但我覺得要把它導回來一下那再來我想再問一下就是因為其實剛剛不同的委員都會提到各國的立法例那我早上在程序發言有很快的提過但是可能沒有太多的時間講細節就今天不管是美國、德國或者日本"},{"start":172.754,"end":175.087,"text":"請問他們大法官生成的方式跟我們台灣一樣嗎?"},{"start":178.455,"end":185.538,"text":"美國有一定的終身制日本也很類似但日本有一個年齡的限制卡在那邊他有一個有點像我們罷免的一個制度但他其實沒有真正被使用過所以他們這種在"},{"start":203.325,"end":227.673,"text":"我們今天假設剛剛我們的人數如果今天不夠的狀況之下然後呢到最後只因為這一次的修法到最後只剩少數的大法官這件事情是台灣蠻特有的一個現象那剛剛卻把這個特有的現象當作是一個通例來討論剛剛有一個表格剛剛羅志強委員想給你回答但我看你剛剛沒什麼機會回答就是有多少人迴避迴避了之後有幾個人同意等等之類的"},{"start":228.713,"end":253.206,"text":"這個表格先天性就有一個問題就是它已經預設了我們一開始就已經否決了接下來的大法官人士所以如果說我們已經接受了這樣的一個事實前提回不回避這件事情它雖然是法定事由但是在每一個個案是不同的它是一個事實而今天我們原而怎麼規定這是一個法定把事實跟法定混在一起這其實不只是數學的問題它其實是一個邏輯的問題"},{"start":254.767,"end":254.867,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":944,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（14時48分）謝謝主席，有請副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：副秘書長好。因為我不是本委，只有4分鐘，所以我快速問一下，因為剛剛講了那麼久，你剛有些地方可能沒有辦法回答到，第一個就是民意基礎，那我想問一下，副秘書長，我們的總統是不是民選？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然是。"],["沈委員伯洋：是，總統如果是民選的，那總統有沒有民意基礎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：民選當然有民意基礎。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，所以我覺得今天在討論的事情有點奇怪，就是說講得好像只有某一區，譬如說大安區的選民才有民意基礎，羅智強才有民意基礎，其他人都沒有民意基礎，如果今天沒有投給他的人也不算民意基礎，這個論理其實非常地奇怪。但這邊我還是要再提醒一下就是說，如果我們按照剛剛他們這樣的說法，今天大法官被總統提名之後，是有一定的民意基礎的人去提名他，然後由立法院的大家投下同意票，也有一定的民意基礎，變成了大法官，那問題是大法官最後在做決定的時候，是根據他的專業還是根據民意？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想大法官在做成決議的時候當然是以他的專業對憲法本旨的認知，不會說全部以民意的多數、少數去做決議，不是這個樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：是嘛！我們今天其實不是只有大法官這樣，我們法官在判案的時候，也都是根據法律的原理原則在判案嘛！如果我們要講究這一些民意基礎的話，是不是以後我們法官在宣判的時候都可以請羅智強委員在旁邊審核一下，太好了，我肯定這一個判決，然後再把判決判出去？而且我們在選立法委員的時候，立法委員的確有民意基礎，有一個選區多數的選民投給他，但投給他也是因為他具備一定的專業嘛！他再用他的專業在國會殿堂上面去決定大法官的人事應該如何，所以譬如說像今天吳宗憲委員在質詢的時候，至少他就是根據：我認為憲判的哪一個字號，我認為大法官這邊的決定我不太認同，這個就是他用他的專業去看我認不認同這個大法官的人選或者說未來的方向，我覺得這才是一個正常的討論。因為剛剛可能都沒有什麼時間回答，但我覺得要把它導回來一下。","再來我想再問一下就是，因為其實剛剛不同的委員都會提到各國的立法例，我早上在程序發言有很快地提過，但是可能沒有太多的時間講細節，今天不管是美國、德國或者日本，請問他們大法官生成的方式跟我們臺灣一樣嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官的生成方式可能每個國家不一樣，像德國的話可能不太一樣，但是我個人沒有去做這方面的調查。"],["沈委員伯洋：像以美國來講，美國有一定的終身制嘛！日本也很類似，但日本有一個年齡的限制卡在那邊，它有一個有點像我們罷免的制度，但它其實沒有真正被使用過。所以他們這種在我們今天假設我們的人數不夠的狀況之下，然後只因為這一次的修法，到最後只剩少數的大法官這件事情，是臺灣滿特有的一個現象，剛剛卻把這個特有的現象當作是一個通例來討論。剛剛有一個表格，羅智強委員想讓你回答，但我看你沒什麼機會回答，就是有多少人迴避，迴避了之後有幾個人同意等等之類的，這個表格先天性就有一個問題，就是它已經預設了我們一開始就已經否決了接下來的大法官人事。所以如果說我們已經接受了這樣的一個事實前提，迴不迴避這件事情，它雖然是法定事由，但是在每一個個案是不同的，它是一個事實，而今天我們員額怎麼規定，這是一個法定，把事實跟法定混在一起，這其實不只是數學的問題，它其實是一個邏輯的問題，那我覺得在國會的殿堂上面不斷地誤導，然後也不給回答的空間，我覺得非常不妥適。希望之後司法院能夠有一個更完整的說法，讓國人能夠知道現在到底是在討論什麼，不然的話，其中的細節有點複雜，大家又可能會顧左右而言他，到最後可能就失去了焦點。因為我的時間已經到了，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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對不對所以這就分兩個層面嘛第一大法官提名過來之後立法院要無條件接受嗎有沒有審查權"},{"start":170.484,"end":191.45,"text":"立法院有審查權嗎?畢竟我們有審查完之後我們還要有過半數的同意才能夠讓大法官來上任嘛所以不是說總統一提名完之後大法官就認命嘛那如果說是這樣的話要經過57位立法委員的投票通過這樣子難道沒有任何的民意基礎嗎?這難道沒有任何的一個民意審查嗎?"},{"start":192.722,"end":216.281,"text":"有民意審查只是說要讓那個大法官能夠順利的去執行但是我回到第一個命題啊大法官提名進來之後立法院要無條件接受嗎如果說今天提名的人選確實不符合民眾的期待確實不符合我們對於專業以及司法的考量確實認為說他不適任大法官的話那立法委員把他否決了"},{"start":217.182,"end":217.522,"text":"副秘書長"},{"start":246.01,"end":250.812,"text":"這不是大是大非的問題嗎?哪一個國家?剛剛我提這幾個國家,哪一個國家是這樣子?來啦,副秘書長,看起來你講得很吱吱嗚嗚啊。說實在的話,本席在上來之前都已經有做過功課跟資料。"},{"start":272.503,"end":299.449,"text":"如果說要在國會殿堂裡面為了是是而非的話來討論那我覺得這非常遺憾再來什麼時候我們這一屆大法官名單送進來立法院那個大法官名單送進來不是司法院的執掌所以不是司法是總統府抱歉抱歉好但是大法官送人事案到9月20號進入到立法院排入了全院委員會"},{"start":300.612,"end":317.284,"text":"那我想請教就您的理解跟瞭解跟認知目前有任何一個黨團提出說希望院長召集協商趕快來安排正式發函有嗎?目前是沒有看到啊院長這邊沒有接收到正式發函有任何一個黨團要求說我們大法官來做什麼時候來排委員會來做審查"},{"start":329.622,"end":349.401,"text":"這不是打假球嗎一方面講說拜託趕快審人事趕快審一方面就沒有黨團發函啊你沒有黨團發函我們要怎麼樣拜託院長趕快召集朝鮮先生來決定時間考試委員有民眾黨團但其他的人事案並沒有啊再者什麼叫打假球你知道嗎副秘書長"},{"start":350.526,"end":378.658,"text":"我要跟你說明一下立法院在打假球稀奇古怪的事情非常多而且睜眼說瞎話不打草稿沒有關係啊NCC人事同意權你有沒有聽過在媒體上面聽過有聽過嘛那個時候也講啊說NCC人事同意權7月31號如果說沒有過的話可能導致iPhone買不到那現在iPhone已經順利上市了而到目前為止立法院已經開議我們第二個會期已經開議了三個多禮拜四個禮拜了"},{"start":379.656,"end":407.748,"text":"NCC人事同意權審查是排在交通委員會那到目前為止交通委員會在這個禮拜已經是第四個禮拜了民進黨的召委排了兩個禮拜國民黨的召委排了兩個禮拜到目前為止六次禮拜一禮拜三禮拜四的交通委員會你知道NCC人事的委員啊審查排在哪一天嗎不了解我跟你報告一下沒有"},{"start":408.922,"end":430.143,"text":"民進黨當召委六次交通委員會 一次都沒有牌啊那結果你告訴我們說NCC委員很重要我們也想審查啊 我們也想要直球對決啊 我們也想要把NCC委員來啊但重點是執政黨連牌都沒有牌 結果你跟我們講說人事很重要這種叫做打假球啊"},{"start":431.003,"end":447.042,"text":"副秘書長,我這邊特別跟您說明一下也感謝你今天過來也出具司法院的報告但是能夠把法修得更完整我們一起努力讓未來憲政不至於有任何的這種憲政的一個危機好不好感謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":906,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（14時40分）我以為今天是質詢，怎麼變成國是論壇，一個人講那麼久？我們請副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：副秘書長，你好。其實聽到現在，不管是對於在野黨委員提出來的訴求，或者是執政黨這邊的護航，重點在於希望現行制度能夠更加的完善或完整，尤其是翁曉玲委員的版本，對於三分之二或二分之一其實也沒有變動，他只是再把法定員額和現有員額的狀況明定。我想請教一下，在國際上，今天很多委員都有提到各個民主國家的案例，美國的法定人員最少是9位大法官，但是要有6位大法官才能參加會議進行案件的審查，是嗎？是嘛！韓國的法定員額韓國憲法法院9名大法官，但是至少要有7名大法官才能審查案件，並且6名大法官同意才能做出判決，是嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：回答大聲一點，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，剛才……"],["洪委員孟楷：法國憲法委員會也有9名成員，但是至少要有7名法定委員才能夠進行審查，是嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：美國、法國、韓國，甚至德國，剛剛提到即便它的憲法法庭有分兩個庭，每個庭各8名大法官，但是至少要有6名大法官才能進行審查，是嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以世界民主國家裡面，剛剛我提到的美國、德國、韓國、法國，相對的狀況也都有，我們現在在講臺灣15位大法官，你的報告我也看得非常清楚了，15位大法官裡面，你一開始開宗明義先講，怕無法充分考量各種專業角度及見解，而破壞司法公信力，固非無見，但是現實上可能會有窒礙難行之處。其中，你就有提到，如果大法官提名任命期程懸缺，未提名足夠的人選，或是立法院未行使同意權的話，可能導致大法官在任的人數低於10位，就沒有辦法達到所謂法定員額三分之二，也因此就沒辦法開會，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這就分兩個層面嘛，第一，大法官提名過來之後，立法院要無條件接受嗎？有沒有審查權？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然，委員當然有……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院有審查權嘛！畢竟我們在審查完之後，我們還要有過半數的同意，才能夠讓大法官來上任，所以不是說總統一提名完之後，大法官就任命嘛！如果是這樣的話，要經過57位立法委員投票通過，這樣子難道沒有任何的民意基礎嗎？這難道沒有任何的民意審查嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有民意審查……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，有民意審查。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只是要讓大法官能夠順利的去執行他們的業務。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！但是又回到第一個命題啊！大法官提名進來之後，立法院要無條件接受嗎？如果說今天提名人選確實不符合民眾的期待，確實不符合我們對於專業以及司法的考量，確實認為他不適任大法官的話，立法委員把他否決了，我們寧缺勿濫，我沒有辦法睜一隻眼、閉一隻眼，我就真的投不下去，因為這個人選就不符合我們過去傳統認為大法官應該要有的地位；如果這樣的話，我們剩下的大法官可以用現行員額三分之二、二分之一，就可以去決定其他的釋憲案件，不就跟我們剛剛提到的國際社會上面民主國家背道而馳嗎？副秘書長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員，那其他的國家……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是大是大非的問題嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：很多都有在新的還沒有就任之前，舊的繼續執行職務到新的就任，或者是另外在這段時間暫時停止職務，讓他具有足夠的人力……"],["翁委員曉玲：哪一個國家嘛？"],["洪委員孟楷：哪一個國家？剛剛我提的這幾個國家，有哪一個國家是這樣子？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：德國有續任的。"],["洪委員孟楷：來啦，副秘書長，看起來你講得支支吾吾，說實在話，本席在上來之前都已經有做過功課跟資料，如果說要在國會殿堂裡面為了似是而非的話來討論，我覺得非常遺憾。再來，什麼時候這一屆大法官名單送進來立法院？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官名單送進來，不是司法院的職掌，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：是總統府，抱歉、抱歉。但是大法官人事案到9月20號進入到立法院，排入了全院委員會，我想請教，就您的理解、瞭解跟認知，目前有任何一個黨團提出希望院長召集協商趕快來安排，正式發函，有嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：抱歉，這個是大院的職掌，司法院並不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：司法院不清楚，好。目前是沒有看到啊！院長這邊沒有接收到正式發函，有任何一個黨團要求我們大法官人事案什麼時候來排委員會進行審查，這不是打假球嗎？一方面講拜託趕快審人事，趕快審，一方面就沒有黨團發函啊！你沒有黨團發函，我們要怎麼樣拜託院長趕快召集朝野協商來決定時間？考試委員有民眾黨團提出，但其他的人事案並沒有啊！再者，副秘書長，你知道什麼叫打假球嗎？我要跟你說明一下，立法院這種打假球稀奇古怪的事情非常多，而且睜眼說瞎話，不打草稿沒有關係，NCC人事同意權你有沒有聽過？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：在媒體上面聽過。"],["洪委員孟楷：有聽過嘛！那個時候也講，NCC人事同意權7月31號如果沒有過的話，可能導致iPhone買不到，那現在iPhone已經順利上市了，而到目前為止立法院已經開議，我們第二個會期已經開議三個多禮拜、四個禮拜了，NCC人事同意權審查是排在交通委員會，到目前為止，交通委員會在這個禮拜已經是第四個禮拜了，民進黨召委排了兩個禮拜、國民黨召委排了兩個禮拜，到目前為止有6次，禮拜一、禮拜三及禮拜四的交通委員會，你知道NCC人事同意權的審查排在哪一天嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：不瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：我跟你報告一下，沒有！民進黨召委在6次的交通委員會一次都沒有排啊！結果你告訴我們NCC委員很重要，我們也想審查啊！我們也想要直球對決啊！我們也想要找NCC的委員來啊！但是執政黨連排都沒有排，結果你跟我講人事案很重要，這種叫作打假球啊！所以副秘書長，我這邊特別跟你說明一下，也感謝你今天過來出具司法院的報告，我們一起努力，能夠把法修得更完整，讓未來憲政不至於有任何的憲政危機，好不好？感謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。","下一位我們請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員。","陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員。","傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員。","沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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抱歉 樓下還在協商總預算那今天真的在立法院風火連天 有很多的戰場但我認為 重中之重當然就是 台灣是不是能夠捍衛我們的憲政法制憲法訴訟法 為修而修 為快而快讓立法權優於司法權這樣子的做法 實在是要三思要三百思 要三萬思啊"},{"start":40.461,"end":63.527,"text":"立委沒有這麼大自己推一堆違憲的法案害怕釋憲然後呢就說大法官是你民進黨開的如果不違憲就不會怕釋憲更不會需要像今天在野黨啟動了毀憲的修法下一頁我們來說席次喔"},{"start":64.582,"end":69.946,"text":"違憲還是違憲維護憲法還是違反憲法應讀起來是一樣的違憲還是違憲但是結果大不同違憲還是違反憲法由我們司法法制委員會藍白6加1七位立委來決定合理嗎社會不需要對話嗎"},{"start":93.26,"end":107.933,"text":"不需要聽到這麼多法界專業界期期以為不可的討論嗎這就是我今天一直在跟吳宗憲召委請求的過去憲法訴訟法從立法到他第一次的修正都歷經了"},{"start":109.534,"end":114.215,"text":"公聽會的程序而現在聽到法界很多不同的聲音為什麼該開公聽會再來討論法案有這麼困難如果不管那多元的意見只有七位藍白立委在這裡right here right now在司法法制委員會就決定了憲法訴訟法用法定原額來取代現有原額他未來的評議的決定要三分之二"},{"start":138.562,"end":161.778,"text":"只有七位藍白立委來決定這樣合理嗎?下一頁我們來看看早上我們論述的美國最高法院大法官是八位加上一位首席大法官共九位他們的規定跟台灣一樣三分之二參與評議二分之一同意"},{"start":163.12,"end":166.764,"text":"美國是9位大法官,台灣有15位喔!同樣的門檻,三分之二參與評議,二分之一同意沒有危及憲政,在美國沒有像台灣的國民黨、民眾黨在說的人數太少了,這是少數觀點!"},{"start":180.177,"end":195.616,"text":"美國沒有發生這樣的憲政爭議我以2015年美國的同婚法案為例最高法院大法官以5比4的投票結果就以那關鍵的一票認同美國同婚正是合法"},{"start":196.789,"end":210.921,"text":"美國的人口是台灣的14倍啊美國的大法官人數遠低於台灣憲法法庭的人數在美國沒有藍白立委這樣說少數觀點少數決定不合理所以要修要來癱瘓憲法法庭美國不會下一頁"},{"start":216.397,"end":241.675,"text":"德國大法官聯邦憲法德國的法院大法官有16名他還分兩個議院依據大法官的專業屬性他分為兩庭同樣兩庭16位除以二簡單的數學問題一庭是八個大法官八位大法官裡頭三分之二參與評議二分之一同意跟台灣的門檻都是一樣的"},{"start":242.876,"end":244.097,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）吳思瑤"},{"start":261.707,"end":273.955,"text":"德國的人口是臺灣的3.6倍他們的大法官人數一停只有8位就可以參與審理沒有人說德國的大法官會危及憲政"},{"start":275.357,"end":291.598,"text":"來回來我前頭所以民間已經在串聯了反對二修憲法訴訟法要求先進行大法官人事同意權再來討論憲法訴訟法為什麼民間的聲音藍白的委員不聽"},{"start":293.24,"end":309.015,"text":"把這些學者專家民團的主張帶到立法院司法法制委員會的公聽會一起來討論為什麼害怕。下一頁律師也發動了聯署先審人事案撤回限訴法"},{"start":310.865,"end":321.472,"text":"律師界．法律專業界其實以為不可的為什麼藍白就是要為修而修為快而快連個公聽會都害怕都阻擋所以大家一直說翁曉玲羅志強都說大法官決定的人數數額太少了會有單一觀點會少數來主導"},{"start":335.461,"end":357.68,"text":"那麼就讓大法官人事同意權趕快行使補回15位如果不行使人事同意權只剩下8位當然人數就更可能是單一觀點更可能是少數主導所以更需要趕快補齊大法官15名的員額同樣的為了避免單一觀點為了避免少數主導為了避免藍白的這種"},{"start":362.546,"end":367.029,"text":"強悍地在這裏強行通過就讓多元的觀點進到法制委員會先召開公聽會再討論修法下一頁數字在這裏數字會說話憲法法庭新制之後到現在112年98%是人民的申請案舊制的時候同樣110年同一年有95%都是人民的申請案如果"},{"start":390.626,"end":417.047,"text":"修法癱瘓了憲法法庭不合理的提高他的評議決定的門檻其實是人民的申請釋憲案被剝奪了政黨利益大於國家利益嗎藍白是這樣幹這樣搞的嗎在下一頁重中之重在這裡藍白所幻想的極端案例"},{"start":418.783,"end":435.562,"text":"並不存在過去不存在數十年來不存在我以憲法訴訟法2019完成新制所宣判48件大法官的裁定"},{"start":436.933,"end":436.953,"text":"為什麽（"},{"start":459.036,"end":481.815,"text":"王曉玲羅志強一直在說兩三個大法官就可以來操憲法的生死案例在哪裡過去沒有發生過48個宣判的大法官的釋憲案裡頭37案都是15名大法官全員參與換言之全員參與15位他的二分之一要過關是8位沒有兩位三位這件事"},{"start":486.687,"end":505.272,"text":"另外因為有10個案子是大法官要迴避 有11個案子迴避制度也是立委倡議的啊 相關的案子就要迴避啊 所以把事實說清楚講明白並沒有兩三個大法官就可以來左右憲法解釋的這種"},{"start":507.172,"end":527.364,"text":"極端的怪異的所謂少數觀點的並不存在從過去到現在都沒有但是唯一有可能的在哪裡下一頁就是現在如果在野黨不行使大法官的人事同意權放任著七個大法官的缺額在那裡前提是"},{"start":530.567,"end":551.802,"text":"藍白已經整個歸託得太好了不行使同意權讓大法官只剩下八位八位如果要扣除部分案件需要迴避那確實有可能三分之二平易二分之一可能會有進入一種一個案子也許五位就會一決"},{"start":553.223,"end":569.911,"text":"但這個前提是藍白拒絕審查大法官同意權藍白拒絕補足七位大法官前提在這裡如果極端案例會存在就是藍白的政治的軌跡"},{"start":572.103,"end":582.169,"text":"極端案例會發生只有藍白這種包藏禍心拒絕行使人事同意權也強行來修過憲法訴訟法"},{"start":583.854,"end":601.985,"text":"所以我今天在這裡再一次的說我非常遺憾我們的主張就是先審同意權補足大法官的缺額如果您對於現在送上來的七位名單有不同意的沒有關係透過審查專業對話直求對決你可以投下你的反對票"},{"start":607.745,"end":611.93,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案。．吳思瑤"},{"start":626.528,"end":627.108,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":893,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（14時29分）謝謝主席。抱歉！樓下還在協商總預算，今天在立法院真的峰火連天，有很多戰場，但我認為重中之重，當然就是臺灣是不是能夠捍衛憲政法治。憲法訴訟法為修而修，為快而快，讓立法權優於司法權，這樣的作法實在是要三思、要三百思、要三萬思！立委沒有這麼大，自己推一堆違憲的法案，害怕釋憲，就說大法官是民進黨開的，如果不違憲就不會怕釋憲，更不會需要像今天在野黨啟動了毀憲的修法。","我們來說席次，維憲還是違憲？維護憲法還是違反憲法？音讀起來是一樣的，維憲還是違憲？結果大不同。維憲還是違反憲法？由司法及法制委員會藍白6加1、7位立委來決定，合理嗎？社會不需要對話嗎？不需要聽到這麼多法界、專業界期期以為不可的討論嗎？這就是我今天一直在跟吳宗憲召委請求的，過去憲法訴訟法從立法到第一次的修正，都歷經了公聽會的程序，而現在聽到法界有很多不同的聲音，為什麼該開公聽會再來討論法案有這麼困難？如果不廣納多元的意見，只有7位藍白立委在這裡、right 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來我們來看看圖表這是在所謂的沒有迴避的情況之下迴避零同意的人就是五位那如果有一位大法官迴避現有會變幾位?"},{"start":129.497,"end":131.839,"text":"那同意會變幾位?沒關係你告訴我四位對不對?那迴避二的話現有會剩幾位?然後同意會剩幾位?迴避三的話現有剩幾個?"},{"start":148.921,"end":149.682,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":177.892,"end":184.194,"text":"那同意剩幾位?然後現有如果是迴避五位現有剩幾位?三位同意剩幾位?當然越底下越極端嘛我說過啦那迴避是六位呢六位發生過吧對不對那六位那現有會變幾位?"},{"start":202.232,"end":225.331,"text":"你回答我 我只是跟你講邏輯問題嘛 現在有兩位啦 對不對 我知道 我講 我跟你講法律你能夠不顧遇到所謂的最特殊狀況嗎 能不能 你還是要考慮啊我先跟你講嘛 現在規定是不是這樣 同意幾個就可以同意 如果迴避六個 幾個同意就可以了"},{"start":226.701,"end":230.884,"text":"你告訴我啊,過半是幾個?現在有兩個,過半是幾個?過半就是二嘛,不是嗎?那是兩個嘛,來,最極端的狀況,七個迴避,現在有剩幾個?"},{"start":245.203,"end":264.833,"text":"剩幾個啊?你不要跟我講不可能數學上不可能不等於法律上都不可能法律在設計上基本上就要考量各種狀況啊那最後是什麼同意剩幾人照現有法律喔你不要迴避我問題喔你不要跟我講前提可不可以我說如果照現有法律這情況發生7個迴避的時候剩幾個人"},{"start":270.835,"end":283.181,"text":"幾個人啊?你不敢回答我直接告訴你。什麼叫我不管你想像我就是跟你講發生了以後剩幾個人?法律規定。在法研法你是法律人在法研法啊。幾個人?一個人啦!到現在不敢回答!國小數學答不出來!跟吳世堯一樣!"},{"start":293.874,"end":308.101,"text":"我跟你講,我不跟你講極端只一個人。那我們吳宗憲委員說可能只有三四個決定有錯嗎?有沒有可能?你跟我講一個不可能是因為不會迴避七個,你說想像上不可能。那想像上迴避一個總有可能吧?有沒有可能?那就是四個啊!吳宗憲委員說的對不對?他說的對不對?所以我要告訴你啊!今天司法院這個法律你們要謝謝翁曉玲委員啊!"},{"start":324.531,"end":331.974,"text":"他今天就是要把這個漏洞補起來嘛!我今天說實在喔,在想下一個問題,我要跟你講,來來沒關係,我要跟你講今天翁曉玲委員的主張就是希望大法官能夠堅記多元性跟嚴謹性嘛所以要回到憲法本文的所謂的15個元額來去定義現有嘛,對不對?翁曉玲委員版本是不是?你告訴我"},{"start":349.458,"end":355.339,"text":"為什麼要把你把這麼國小這麼無聊的國小問題去問堂堂的副秘書長不只是因為吳世耀的數學有問題而是我告訴你這個問題就產生下一個我要問的問題你知道為什麼今天非得補這個洞嗎"},{"start":375.441,"end":391.987,"text":"因為你不補這個洞因為有這現有迴避的規定的話就會產生一個叫做鼓勵總統亂提人的現象啊你知道為什麼嗎就像這一次你也知道齁台灣民眾八成反對廢除死刑嘛對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":397.541,"end":412.708,"text":"然後呢這次大法官就是搞出一個實質廢止判決為藉有很多的疑慮可是我們親愛的賴清德總統他就提七個大法官六個主張廢除死刑啊"},{"start":414.005,"end":438.233,"text":"而六個主張廢除死刑那我要告訴你問題在哪裡他就算這七個都不過照你現在這種漏洞制度我只要剩下那八個人四個人就可以去通過我今天剛剛吳宗憶委員講的我們大法官目前擁有的第一專業叫做民進黨的神奇寶貝只要神奇寶貝打出來就可以幫民進黨洗地因為他只要現在的人就可以啦"},{"start":439.792,"end":453.519,"text":"這些都是環環相扣的那在下我再請教一下我聽不太懂吳思堯跟民進黨委員我講第二件事情一直強調大法官不需要民意大法官不需要我問一下我有沒有民意基礎我有沒有民意基礎當然啊立法院有沒有民意基礎那為什麼大法官要立法院同意"},{"start":467.711,"end":480.324,"text":"就是要有民意基礎的人同意結果你還附和這些民進黨的立委你跟他講大法官不用民意基礎大法官審判說不需要考慮民意憲法是人民決定的"},{"start":482.455,"end":507.652,"text":"為什麼不用民意基礎這句話都講得出來我真的佩服你阿今天我要說幾句實在話大法官若不需要民意基礎我跟秘書長建議一件事很簡單修憲嘛大法官不需要立法院同意啦大法官就說今天大法官乃民進黨之神奇寶貝由總統決定任命之結束啦不需要民意基礎就這麼幹就好啦阿幹嘛要民意基礎"},{"start":509.161,"end":524.751,"text":"我再想下一個問題我想請教一下我們副秘書長明顯來講大法官現在的狀況這個所謂的人民申請的釋憲案很多我想請問目前政府機關提出的釋憲案受理的比例是多少?政府機關受理了政府機關受理多少?"},{"start":534.965,"end":557.071,"text":"百分之百啦!你們只要民進黨敢送的你哪一個不敢不受理?最近警示民進黨送的東西有沒有受理?只要是行政機關送的你受理沒?民進黨政府受理沒?好統計給我你不敢講沒關係人民的受理多少?人民不受理九成對不對?"},{"start":558.524,"end":561.045,"text":"所以我跟你講今天我們民進黨在這邊講的那個非常光免堂皇的三大論點第一個跟你保證"},{"start":581.79,"end":581.91,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時19分）主席，有請副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好！"],["羅委員智強：副秘書長，我聽了包括吳思瑤委員，還有前面很多民進黨立委的論述，尤其吳思瑤委員，他特別強調，我們如果不去修改今天的憲法訴訟法，絕對不會出現有幾個大法官就能夠做出憲法判決的情形。到底會不會出現幾個大法官就決定憲法判決的情形，我們吳思瑤委員的數學是100分還是0分，我就請專業的副秘書長和大家，我們來數學檢驗一下。","我想要請教一下副秘書長，現任15位大法官，有7位在10月31日任滿，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，他們任滿之後，還剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：8位。"],["羅委員智強：8位。賴清德總統提出7位所謂的提名人選，目前尚有些爭議，在這7位大法官未獲得同意之前，請問依照現行憲法訴訟法，我們的總額是幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：15位。"],["羅委員智強：這7位未獲得同意之前，是幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剩下8位。"],["羅委員智強：8位，對不對？好，我想請教你，按照憲法訴訟法第三十條，現有總額在8人的情況之下，大法官判決要有多少人以上參與評議？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：三分之二。"],["羅委員智強：8人的三分之二是幾人？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：6位。"],["羅委員智強：6個人。要幾個人同意才能夠做出憲法判決？現有總額過半嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["羅委員智強：8人過半是多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：8人過半的話，就5位。"],["羅委員智強：5位，好。我們來看看圖表，這是在所謂沒有人迴避的情況之下，迴避0位的話，同意的人就是5位，如果有1位大法官迴避，現有會變幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：會變成7位。"],["羅委員智強：好，同意會變幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員有列出來。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你告訴我，4位，對不對？迴避2位的話，現有會剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：6位。"],["羅委員智強：同意會剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：就變4位。"],["羅委員智強：迴避3位的話，現有剩幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：像委員……"],["羅委員智強：我知道，我問副秘書長很無聊的國小數學，但是沒辦法，我們的吳思瑤數學就這麼好，我只好用國小數學來問你。現有剩5位，請問同意要幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：同意當然就是剩下3位，但是這個前提要……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我知道，這個前提是比較特殊的前提。大法官之前都曾經出現過6位，到6位以上都不算特殊，都出現過啦！迴避如果是4位，現有剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剩下4位。"],["羅委員智強：同意剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剩下3位。"],["羅委員智強：如果是迴避5位，現有剩幾位？3位，同意剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這個情形就非常非常的極端……"],["羅委員智強：當然越底下越極端，我說過了啊！迴避是6位的話，6位發生過，對不對？現有會變幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官必須……"],["羅委員智強：你回答我，現在我只是跟你講邏輯問題。現有2位，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為我覺得那6位不會發生這種情形……"],["羅委員智強：我知道，我跟你講，法律能夠不顧慮到所謂的最特殊狀況嗎？能不能？你還是要考慮啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為那個時候都是同一個背景的教授……"],["羅委員智強：我先跟你講，現在規定是不是這樣？幾個就可以同意？如果迴避6個，幾個同意就可以了？你告訴我，過半是幾個？現有兩個，過半是幾個？過半就是2，不是嗎？那就兩個。最極端的狀況，7個迴避，現有剩幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個還能夠作成嗎？"],["羅委員智強：剩幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然沒辦法，這根本不可能就作成決議。"],["羅委員智強：你不要跟我講不可能，數學上的不可能不等於法律上的不可能，法律在設計上，基本上就要考量各種狀況。最後同意剩幾人？照現有法律，你不要迴避我的問題。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該不可能去作成決議。"],["羅委員智強：你不要跟我講前提可不可以，我說如果照現有法律發生這個情況，即7個迴避的時候，剩幾個人？幾個人？你不敢回答，我直接告訴你！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：怎麼想像都不可能發生。"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫想像？我不管你想像，我就是跟你講發生了以後剩幾個人，法律規定、在法言法，你是法律人，在法言法！幾個人？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想完全不會發生的……"],["羅委員智強：1個人，到現在不敢回答，國小數學答不出來，跟吳思瑤一樣。我不跟你講極端值1個人，吳宗憲委員說可能只有三、四個決定，有錯嗎？有沒有可能？你跟我講1個不可能，是因為不會7個迴避，你說想像不可能，那想像1個迴避，總有可能吧？有沒有可能？那就是4個，吳宗憲委員說的對不對？他說的，對不對？所以我要告訴你，今天這個法律修正案司法院要謝謝翁曉玲委員，他就是要把這個漏洞補起來。我今天說實在話。我再講下一個問題……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：假設一定要修，有各種修法……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我要跟你講。今天翁曉玲委員的主張就是希望大法官能夠兼具多元性跟嚴謹性，所以要回到憲法本文所謂的15個員額來定義現有，對不對？翁曉玲委員的版本，是不是？你告訴我。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有各種訂法，像其他國家可以讓……"],["羅委員智強：這是事實問題，翁曉玲委員，是不是？"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，有很多人……"],["羅委員智強：對，還要跟我繞時間。沒有關係，我要跟你講，為什麼要把這麼無聊的國小問題去問堂堂的副秘書長？不只是因為吳思瑤的數學有問題，而是這個問題就產生下一個我要問的問題，你知道為什麼今天非得補這個洞嗎？因為你不補這個洞，因為有現有迴避的規定，就會產生一個叫做鼓勵總統亂提人的現象，你知道為什麼嗎？就像這一次，你也知道臺灣民眾八成反對廢除死刑，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：照外面的……"],["羅委員智強：民調嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們沒有做過調查。"],["羅委員智強：這次大法官就是搞出一個實質廢死判決，外界有很多疑慮，可是親愛的賴清德總統提7個大法官，就有6個主張廢除死刑。我要告訴你問題在哪裡，就算這7個都不過，照現在這種漏洞制度，只要剩下8個人，其中4個人就可以通過剛剛吳宗憲委員講的，大法官目前擁有的單一專業叫做民進黨的神奇寶貝，只要神奇寶貝打出來就可以幫民進黨洗地，因為只要現在的人就可以了。我告訴你，這些都是環環相扣的。","我再請教一下副秘書長，我聽不太懂。我講第二件事情，吳思瑤跟民進黨委員一直強調大法官不需要民意。我問一下，我有沒有民意基礎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：民意代表當然有民意基礎。"],["羅委員智強：當然，立法院有沒有民意基礎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：國會也是代表民意。"],["羅委員智強：為什麼大法官要立法院同意？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官……"],["羅委員智強：就是要有民意基礎的人同意，結果你還附和這些民進黨的立委，你跟他說大法官不用民意基礎，大法官審判的時候不需要考慮民意。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官在審判的時候……"],["羅委員智強：憲法是人民決定的，為什麼不用民意基礎？這句話都講得出來，我真是佩服你！今天我要說句實在話，大法官如果不需要民意基礎，我跟秘書長建議一件事，很簡單，修憲嘛！大法官不需要立法院同意，也就是大法官乃民進黨之神奇寶貝，由總統決定任命之，就結束啦！不需要民意基礎，這麼幹就好了，幹嘛要民意基礎？","我再講下一個問題，請教副秘書長，民進黨一直講大法官現在的狀況是所謂的人民聲請釋憲案很多，請問目前政府機關提出的釋憲案，受理的比例是多少？政府機關的受理多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為他聲請的就不到百分之二。"],["羅委員智強：政府機關的受理多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們再來統計……"],["羅委員智強：百分之百！只要民進黨敢送的，你們哪一個敢不受理？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們要看哪個政府機關。"],["羅委員智強：你們要去查，把資料告訴我。最近幾次民進黨送的東西有沒有受理？只要是行政機關送的，你受理了沒？民進黨政府送的受理了沒？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：統計後跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：還要統計給我，你不敢講，沒關係！人民的受理多少？人民的不受理九成，對不對？沒錯吧？我的數字有沒有錯？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是人民的量非常多……"],["羅委員智強：人家說你有進步，我承認你進步不錯，但人民的不受理就是九成，政府的就百分之百，政府的不受理是零！民進黨只要送出來，不受理就是零。今天民進黨在這邊講非常冠冕堂皇的三大論點，第一個，跟你保證不會有幾個大法官就把這個憲法判決做了，我剛剛以國小數學題告訴你，就是會發生。第二個，跟你講大法官不需要民意基礎，我覺得你就直接修憲，修憲不需要立法院同意，直接讓大法官變成民進黨親愛的神奇寶貝，球一丟出去就出來開始洗地。第三個、跟我說人民的案件多，現在人民的案件有九成不受理，民進黨送的馬上受理！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員。","下一位麻煩吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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6人擬具"},{"start":572.955,"end":599.888,"text":"我覺得掌握了所有宣傳媒體的人他就是不讓人民去知道捅了那麼大的婁子但是我現在講的每個東西各位都是司法官訓練所的學長我如果有講錯真的歡迎你們來說我講錯但是我很難過的是這些東西就是我現在目前看到將來馬上要面對司法上面實務上的最大問題很有可能有一天你坐電梯你家社區就住了這37個人的其中一個人"},{"start":600.888,"end":601.008,"text":"謝謝副委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（14時8分）謝謝，麻煩副秘書長。"],["主席：有請副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘書長，我先講一個最基本的核心問題，看起來目前人數的規定，我想請教你一個問題，大法官如果今天迴避的迴避、請假的請假，如果到最後只有5個人出庭的話，那要多少人以上才能夠做出判決？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果現在有5個的話，依照現在的規定……當然目前沒有出現過這種情形。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我們現在依法論法嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：5個，當然目前是過半數，對不對？"],["吳委員宗憲：所以是3位，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前實際上不管怎麼樣，從來沒出過……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！副秘書長，我再講一次，我們就法論法，我不是問你歷史故事。如果今天迴避的迴避、請假的請假，只有5個人能夠出庭，請問依照現行我國憲法訴訟法的規定，幾位大法官以上同意的話，可以做出這個判決？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：現在就是最少10位出席，對不對？如果有迴避，當然就扣除，迴避就扣除。"],["吳委員宗憲：你都沒有回答我的問題！不是啦，副秘，不用這樣嘛！為什麼每次我……我跟你講，我問的問題都是很直接、簡單了當的，如果我今天開庭這樣問當事人問題，或是我在那邊亂講的話，法官也會制止我說，你在那邊講什麼。好啦！沒關係，副秘不方便回答，我就跟副秘說，依照現行我國的法律，如果到最後只有5個人出庭的話，只要3個人同意就可以做出判決。這是我講的，你不方便講沒關係。","回過頭來，我們去思考一個問題，這一次大法官做出的憲判字8號有一個問題，當初我們為什麼會認為同一個專長的大法官不要超過三分之一？為什麼單一專業不要超過三分之一，就是希望能夠有多元的大法官，才不會有時候做出來的判決可能跟實務差太多。這一次的憲判字，我們就發現一個非常明確的問題，因為前幾次我在質詢法務部長的時候，副秘都有在，我們講一個最簡單的，這一次做出憲判字的這些大法官，很多人搞不清楚羈押的要件是什麼，所以他才會在憲判字裡面要求說，這37位死刑犯被告回歸到普通法院的時候，法官應予羈押。我也知道應予羈押啊！但是跟現行的羈押制度的法律規定都不一樣。我再回過頭去看了一下這15位大法官的背景，我赫然發現原來只有3位法官有實務審判經驗，難怪今天會變成這樣，等於是有12位根本搞不清楚羈押的要件是什麼，或是他們沒有想過或是不熟，所以今天才會變成大法官在下憲判的時候，他直接告訴你說，這個人如果回歸到普通法院審理的時候，你要羈押。結果這個羈押跟刑事訴訟法的羈押要件根本不符，也就是這37個死刑犯，如果檢察總長認為他提非常上訴成功之後，他們回歸普通法院，很有可能馬上就被放掉回家了。所以我這次發現，原來憲法訴訟法要求單一專業法官不能夠超過三分之一是何等重要的一個規定。","所以我在這邊跟你們說，為什麼今天翁曉玲委員會提出這樣的要求？他其實也是要避免萬一將來有一些狀況導致能夠出庭的大法官數非常少的時候，可能會變成是3個、4個人就決定一個憲法判決的案子。今天其實翁曉玲委員只是要這樣提出來。我這邊就跟各位報告這個。","然後剛剛吳思瑤委員其實也搞錯，他拿德國來講，他一開始講的沒錯，德國是2個庭沒錯，每個庭8位，要6位出席。他剛剛講錯的是德國是8位，我們這邊為什麼要10位？事實上，德國是8位，但是他們要6位出席，也就是要超過四分之三，他如果拿這個引用到臺灣來，等於我們還比德國更寬鬆。其實依照翁曉玲委員的法案，也比德國更寬鬆。我不知道吳思瑤委員剛剛是不是要幫翁曉玲委員講話，他才引德國的例子，還是他根本就搞不清楚自己在講什麼，但後者比較有可能，後者是他可能根本搞不清楚他自己在講什麼。德國1庭是8人，他們有2庭，8人要有6人出庭，是這樣子，對不對？所以哪有拿6人這個數字來比我們這邊10個人要出庭，這個亂比嘛！因為他們是1庭8人，也不到10人，你說他們6人出庭就可以，結果我們這邊要10人，所以我們比他們要求多，這個都亂比一通啦！我沒有辦法理解這個，法律不能這樣子亂引用嘛！","回過頭來，剛剛黃國昌委員有提出很多不同國家的憲法法庭或者是最高法院大法官或法官人數的比例，事實上，臺灣這次修法如果修到像翁委員提出來的這個法案，其實它也不是一個非常嚴格的要求，甚至比我們鄰近的其他幾個國家，譬如韓國、美國、德國，我們也沒有更嚴格的要求，所以我不瞭解什麼叫做癱瘓憲法法庭，這個名詞我覺得就是扣帽子，但是很多人很喜歡扣帽子，他不扣帽子，他已經不會處理案子了。","回到我剛剛講的，其實有一些極端的狀況下，確實有可能只要3個大法官同意，就會做出憲法的判決，依據現行制度是有可能，但法律的存在並不是過去有例子，才怎麼樣立法，而是法律訂立之後，要儘量能夠應付將來每一種可能發生的案例。","為什麼我會提這個？就是因為這一次的憲判字8號等於是捅了一個大婁子給實務界，就我剛剛說的，第一個、回歸普通法院以後，根本就沒辦法羈押，這些大法官不知道，還說普通法院的法官要記得押，他根本就搞錯了。第二個、假釋門檻的問題，假釋門檻是要以行為時，所以有一些人是適用15年就可以假釋，他已經在裡面關很久了，是不是沒有幾年後就可以申請假釋？第三個、我們將來還會面對一個更嚴重的問題，憲判字8號完全忘記收容可不可以折抵刑期這個東西，他們完全忘記講了，所以有一些人已經收容了10幾年了，以後人權團體一定會出來替這些死刑犯說，收容也要計入刑期的折抵，否則，你憑什麼限制他的人身自由？到最後變成他們可能只要回歸普通法院，判無期徒刑，馬上就可以申請假釋，立刻就可以申請無期徒刑的假釋。","這些東西都是實務面對的，我覺得我們這次的大法官只有單一的專業，就是全部都跟執政黨走的這個單一專業，其他的專業都不足，至於實務，我剛剛說了，只有3位有實務的審判經驗，才會導致這一次羈押也沒有弄清楚，假釋也沒有弄清楚，收容可不可以折抵刑期也沒有提到，這樣子的憲判出來，一定是給法務部以及司法院造成很大的困擾。","沒關係！在座很多人不懂，沒有實務審判的經驗，在那邊笑，我覺得就算了，我也不會去講不懂的人，但你們一定懂得我在講什麼，將來我們就看，刑事訴訟法第一百零一條、第一百零一條之一的羈押要件就那幾個而已，你有沒有辦法符合那個羈押要件去押了他們？這就是一個實務第一線面對的問題，上個禮拜你和法務部長兩個都回答不了我這個問題，即使到今天，我問了非常多我實務界的同學，也每個都跟我說，這會是馬上面臨的大問題，但是到現在還是無解。所以我還是認為，大法官的專業真的要能夠多元，這樣才不會像憲判字8號立出來這個，在實務上面捅了這個大婁子，自己都還搞不清楚！我覺得掌握了所有宣傳媒體的人就是不讓人民去知道捅了那麼大的婁子。我現在講的每個東西，各位都是司法官訓練所的學長，我如果有講錯，真的歡迎你們來說我講錯，但是我很難過的是這些東西就是我目前看到將來馬上要面對司法實務上的最大問題。很有可能有一天你坐電梯，你家社區就住了這37個人的其中1個人，因為他沒有辦法羈押了，他就是就審，但是他沒有羈押，他就回來住在社區裡面，對心理的壓力是有，我上次也講了，只要這37位死刑犯其中有1個回到社會，對於目前的執政黨，以及對司法院、法務部，其實都有一些傷害。謝謝副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：謝謝。下一位請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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其實運動外交 因為各國都有相對應的政策或機構 那我們會進行來對接 那找出合作的項目比如說以美國來講 他這個AIT 就很重視劉伯鈞的無人鎖大使那我想在台美之間很多的項目可以一起來推動他對美國國務院 也是他們有參加過他們的課程"},{"start":240.197,"end":249.692,"text":"更了解其實運動外交包括性別平等還有其他的一些運動員相關的權益的推廣這些也都是在運動外交的範圍"},{"start":251.132,"end":277.123,"text":"聽起來從上次六月跟部長對話到現在我發現部長對於運動外交的認識越來越多這個部分我聽得非常開心意思就是說我相信在部長您的領導之下一定台灣的運動外交可以做得更好除了博君是一個非常重要的例子但有沒有可能換位思考例如說博君就跟我們分享過其實我們自己也有能力去協助別的國家的女性運動或者是運動從業人員他們的價值可以被肯定讓這些"},{"start":278.283,"end":307.651,"text":"不同國家的朋友可以透過運動外交跟臺灣建立關係我們來看下一頁例如說之前盧伯鈞他們的臺灣運動好事協會他們跟孟加納女藍有做相關賠利計畫他們甚至還有木運動內衣捐贈到國外去可是這中間因為他當時並沒有無任所大使的身份他在做這些事情上遇到非常多的困難包含簽證跨國聯繫的工作但是我相信從伯鈞擔任無任所大使之後"},{"start":308.231,"end":309.471,"text":"以這個運動內衣的捐贈或是運動相關的這些：女力或是課程的賠利"},{"start":332.138,"end":351.051,"text":"對 我們會來推動 我講是說其實台灣在紡織業在機能性服裝上其實很多運動員都是穿我們台灣製的那這個方面也是我們的強項所以除了運動內衣之外有一些競賽及有一些他們的衣服裝或者是設備其實這方面的推廣"},{"start":351.852,"end":354.033,"text":"其實女性在運動上相對處於有時候會比較不利或被歧視的情形所以這個是我們可以切入的重點"},{"start":378.789,"end":405.078,"text":"其實部長剛剛講到不只是產業的問題或是性別的問題或者是兒少培力的問題其實都是無認所大使劉伯鈞他在過去沒有這個身份之前他就非常積極在從事的事情那我們來看下一頁其實我談這麼多的案例我先回到光是在巴黎奧運其實駐法外館的同仁全力支援巴黎奧運這件事情是不是也要拜託部長先公開的給予同仁相對的鼓勵"},{"start":406.109,"end":420.035,"text":"有,我其實那時候跟吳志忠還有代表還有後來郝培斯代表因為剛好在奧運跟帕運之間我們其實是密切的聯繫所以相關的包括他們的訓練中心還有相關的這些文化奧運"},{"start":421.255,"end":435.84,"text":"所以這個密切聯繫我們的外管在這一次扮演很重要的角色那下一次因為是在洛杉磯我們應該有更好的條件可以把目標再更提高"},{"start":436.22,"end":464.719,"text":"好謝謝部長幫我把我想要講的話講出來如果我們在法國就已經有這麼好的成績那美國相對跟台灣是友善的國家有非常多的討論可以開始進行但是部長剛有提到運動部所以如果我們不要只等著運動部外交部是不是可以率先啟動相關的準備作業因為事實上雖然時間看起來是2028但其實我們所剩時間不多可不可以由外交部這邊更積極的發起所謂運動外交更多的想像跟政策開始推動"},{"start":465.509,"end":478.749,"text":"我們會跟現在其實教育部體育署也是有相關的業務那當然未來運動部現在已經都設立好明年要成立我們會就是同步來作業無縫接軌好同步作業所以這邊我們會積極跟外交部開會"},{"start":481.643,"end":507.023,"text":"我有請我們同仁針對運動外交相關的人就是能夠組合起來大家來討論我們要推動的這個事項所以根據我們今天談的三個事情一個是我認為外交部必須要定期有專人主動跟無認所大使聯繫針對大使的工作目標提供相關業務的協助就如同我說的他之前為了推動非常多運動的外交"},{"start":507.443,"end":507.543,"text":"﹚陳培瑜"},{"start":523.72,"end":548.654,"text":"我已經有跟劉伯鈞﹑吳任所大使有……﹖吳任所大使只是其中一個例子啦﹖其實每一位吳任所大使都有他們的專家﹖然後戴志穎﹖吳任所大使我們也會來瞭解他的想要推動的重點﹖好那這個部分我希望我們在一個月內有相關的規劃報告跟執行狀況﹖第二個喔﹖運動外交不能再只是依賴這些吳任所大使﹖不要讓這些大使孤軍作戰﹖我們希望外交部跟體育署就是未來的運動部要定期的工作匯報﹖這個部分部長您覺得會有困難嗎﹖"},{"start":551.435,"end":574.876,"text":"有關怎麼去進行我們會來進行委員提示的重點我們也會特別重視那最後一個就是2028洛杉磯奧運我相信我們在剛剛討論當中部長應該知道更多人對於運動外交的想像是他是一個柔性的他是一個軟性的他可以有更多的面向可以一起進行那這邊也要拜託外交部積極努力"},{"start":576.642,"end":576.682,"text":"陳培瑜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":985,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時53分）好，謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長午安，辛苦了。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我之前在6月的時候跟您討論過運動外交，不知道部長還有沒有印象？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：很棒的是，上個禮拜總統府發布邀請了戴資穎，還有劉柏君這兩位我們都非常熟悉的傑出運動人士擔任無任所大使，我想之後外交部在運動外交這部分因為有這兩位大使的協助，應該可以著力更深。","10月7號，我看到部長您跟大使有餐敘，不知道餐敘過程中你有沒有跟他們兩個稍微聊一下？外交部接下來在運動外交有沒有什麼著力的方向？"],["林部長佳龍：是，因為現在政府要成立運動部，外交部也同步針對相關的運動外交在做一些規劃，包括我們對無任所大使的角色，也希望能夠透過他們跟國際有更多的交流合作，也會有一個無任所大使的聯繫辦公室跟相關的行政協助。像最近的帕拉林匹克，應該這幾天就會舉行亞洲帕拉林匹克的委員會，我們也全力支持，也跟主辦單位表達，希望能夠跟運動外交結合，包括無任所大使的角色。明年就是世界壯年運動會，這也是我們近期的重點。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以聽起來在部長您的規劃跟想像當中，也許是你的幕僚給你的資料。我們再往下看，我知道部長一定會提到運動部，可是說實話，等到他們正式上路，這中間有非常多要交接跟規劃的混亂階段，我會覺得如果這個時候，外交部可以更加積極先走在運動部之前。我給部長一些例子，其實從聯合國的角度來看，運動外交是一個非常重要的工作，例如以美國來說，國務院有運動外交部門，日本有東京奧運東協10國計畫，澳洲有運動外交2030，英國也有2021到2031的運動策略計畫，沙烏地阿拉伯的願景2030，這一系列的國家，我相信跟臺灣在運動外交上，絕對有很多的角色跟工作可以開始交流跟進行。所以這個部分我還是要積極來拜託外交部在這個部分要更加積極，用這兩位無任所大使，他們在運動上的專長跟他們在國際上被接受的狀態，讓外交部可以做更多事情。","我再次跟部長分享，以劉柏君為例，他用他自己的努力登上了聯合國、富比士雜誌還有美國國務院的網站，甚至他親身踏入聯合國演講。部長，我要拜託您的是，其實臺灣有沒有可能再找出第二個跟第三個劉柏君？我自己說實話，不是因為我們沒有人才，而是國際的情勢會讓我們更加的困難，這個部分部長你怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：確實，其實運動外交因為各國都有相對應的政策或機構，我們會進行對接，找出合作的項目。比如以美國來講，AIT就很重視劉柏君這個無任所大使，我想在臺美之間很多的項目可以一起來推動，他也有參加過美國國務院的課程，更了解其實運動外交還有包括性別平等，還有其他的一些運動員相關權益的推廣，這些也都是在運動外交的範圍。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來從上次6月跟部長對話到現在，我發現部長對於運動外交的認識越來越多，這個部分我聽得非常開心，意思就是，我相信在部長您的領導之下，臺灣的運動外交一定可以做得更好。除了柏君是一個非常重要的例子，但有沒有可能換位思考，例如說柏君就跟我們分享過，其實我們自己也有能力去協助別的國家的女性運動，或者是運動從業人員，他們的價值可以被肯定，讓這些不同國家的朋友，可以透過運動外交跟臺灣建立關係。例如之前劉柏君的台灣運動好事協會，他們跟孟加拉女籃有做相關培力計畫，甚至還有募運動內衣捐贈到國外去，可是這中間，因為他當時並沒有這個無任所大使的身分，他在做事情上遇到非常多的困難，包含簽證、跨國聯繫的工作，但是我相信從柏君擔任無任所大使之後，很多這些事情的聯繫是不是會更加快速跟便利，甚至可以讓他的影響力擴及到更多的國家，跟更多不同運動種類項目的運動員有所交流？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分我想要拜託部長給出承諾。"],["林部長佳龍：以運動內衣的捐贈或是運動相關的這些……"],["陳委員培瑜：女力或者是課程的培力。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們會來推動，我是說其實臺灣在紡織業、在機能性服裝上，其實很多運動員都是穿我們臺灣製的，這個方面也是我們的強項，所以除了運動內衣之外，有一些競賽以及有一些他們的服裝或者是設備，其實這方面的推廣也是運動外交的一部分，我們的產業很強，未來這方面我們也會配合，其實已經很多人都在捐贈，像消防服裝，我們也做跨國的很多交流合作，特別是新南向國家，運動外交其實是可以深入到，尤其對一些女權比較需要的國家，因為女性在運動上面有時候會相對處於比較不利或被歧視的情形，這個是我們可以切入的重點。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實部長剛剛有講到，不只是產業的問題，或是性別的問題，或者是兒少培力的問題，其實都是無任所大使劉柏君在過去沒有這個身分之前就非常積極在從事的事情。其實我談這麼多的案例，我先回到光是在巴黎奧運期間，其實駐法外館的同仁全力支援巴黎奧運這件事情，是不是也要拜託部長先公開給予同仁相對的鼓勵？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我其實那時候跟吳志中代表及後來的郝培芝代表，因為剛好在奧運跟帕運之間，我們都有密切的聯繫，所以相關的包括他們的訓練中心，還有相關的這些文化奧運，這方面的密切聯繫，我們的外館在這一次扮演很重要的角色，下一次因為是在洛杉磯，我們應該有更好的條件，可以把目標再更提高。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長幫我把我想要講的話講出來，如果我們在法國就已經有這麼好的成績，美國相對跟臺灣是友善的國家，有非常多的討論可以開始進行，但是部長剛剛有提到運動部，如果我們不要只等著運動部，外交部是不是可以率先啟動相關的準備作業？因為事實上雖然時間看起來是2028，但其實我們所剩時間不多，可不可以由外交部這邊更積極地發起所謂運動外交，更多的想像跟政策開始推動？"],["林部長佳龍：現在其實教育部體育署也是有相關的業務，未來的運動部現在已經都設立好，明年要成立，我們會同步來作業，無縫接軌。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，同步作業，所以這邊我們會積極跟外交部開會？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我有請我們同仁針對運動外交相關的人，就是能夠組合起來，大家來討論我們要推動的事項。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以根據我們今天談的三個事情，一個是我認為外交部必須要定期有專人主動跟無任所大使聯繫，針對大使的工作目標提供相關業務的協助，就如同我說的，他之前為了推動非常多運動的外交，在簽證或是跨國聯繫上其實受到非常多的阻礙，這個部分部長是不是可以先公開承諾，外交部可以定期專人主動跟這些無任所大使聯繫，除了提供相對的行政庶務辦公室的一個窗口之外，這個部分會有困難嗎？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：我已經有跟劉柏君無任所大使有……"],["陳委員培瑜：劉柏君只是其中一個例子，其實每一位無任所大使都有他們的專長。"],["林部長佳龍：戴資穎無任所大使，我們也會去了解他想要推動的重點。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我希望你們在一個月內有相關的規劃報告跟執行狀況。","第二個，運動外交不能再只是依賴這些無任所大使，不要讓這些大使孤軍作戰，我們希望外交部跟體育署，就是未來的運動部，要定期有工作會報，這個部分部長覺得會有困難嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有關怎麼去進行，我們會來進行啦，委員提示的重點我們也會特別重視。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，最後一個就是2028洛杉磯奧運，我相信在我們剛剛的討論當中，部長應該知道更多人對於運動外交的想像是，它是一個柔性的、是一個軟性的，是有更多的面向可以一起進行，這邊也要拜託外交部積極努力。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員，如果您有寶貴的意見，我們也歡迎能夠給我們參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，接下來我們一起努力。謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，部長請回。","接下來請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe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行走的時候台灣人對於中美洲那邊需要的協助我們是出錢出力啊從來沒有缺席過但是過去這幾年"},{"start":509.977,"end":536.68,"text":"我們一路上面看下來變成是什麼我們一開始在中美洲銀行投資那麼多是因為裡面都是我們的邦交國嘛結果搞到現在斷交剩下兩個一個貝里斯一個瓜地拉馬然後再來這個是我們在中美洲銀行股款的繳納台灣啊來我直接看啊排名啊是第一名"},{"start":537.506,"end":563.331,"text":"到最近第8次增資的時候國際社會已經在質疑中美中銀行在幹什麼成為獨裁者的金庫第8次增資的時候有很多其他區域外的會員國大家對於要再拿錢出來是充滿了猶豫我們應該再往錢往裡面砸嗎砸進去了以後錢跑到哪裡去真的跑去幫助人民嗎"},{"start":564.591,"end":587.812,"text":"跑去幫助學童嗎?跑去幫助婦女嗎?還是跑到了貪污者、獨裁者的口袋裡面去所以第8次爭執的時候我老實講在立法院那個時候我們到底要不要參加這件事情有少數瞭解情況關心的委員開始在質詢的時候大家是很在乎在面對國際社會的時候"},{"start":591.124,"end":608.295,"text":"蔡英文前總統說不會跟中國進行無意義的金錢外交競逐部長同不同意同意啊也同意嘛這個也是你說的嘛是好我最後一個問題中美洲銀行那邊我們會不會幫其他的國家繳股款其他的國家繳股款第8次增資的股款會還是不會"},{"start":616.718,"end":617.938,"text":"剛剛同仁講他們並沒有這樣的計畫確定沒有?"},{"start":642.779,"end":664.029,"text":"我只要你一句話有還是沒有會還是不會來你來說明一下是報委員增資的部分我們不會協助任何國家來繳股款確定絕對不會拿台灣納稅的錢幫其他國家搞繳股款這個是確定的事情了是嗎我是講第8次增資的部分我們不會繳股款那未來呢"},{"start":666.735,"end":679.065,"text":"我跟委員說明一下其實我們現在想要除了加強監督還有你提到的這個對啦這個我都知道要加強監督理事在裡面有積極的矯正但請回答我一個關鍵的問題在國會裡面把話說清楚我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款我只問這件事"},{"start":687.432,"end":689.694,"text":"會還是不會?你們今天在國會裡面講話就要負責了,會還是不會?奇怪了,你們的問題怎麼反覆來?剛剛部長說不會,你現在又說考慮?"},{"start":717.892,"end":718.473,"text":"要花多少錢?"},{"start":731.274,"end":739.778,"text":"我只講一件事啦繼續投錢下去甚至是幫其他的國家繳錢拿台灣納稅的錢去繳丟到裡面去我希望外交部要慎重從這家銀行過去喔怎麼對待台灣發展到今天的歷史"},{"start":759.227,"end":766.724,"text":"我們繼續投錢下去還不夠如果還要拿台灣納稅人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款我希望外交部要慎重考慮"},{"start":767.99,"end":793.502,"text":"是 我跟委員也說明一下我們是不是可以從另外一個角度我們怎麼樣去積極影響中美洲銀行可以來發揮我們榮邦計畫那因為現在相對比較單純嘛因為現在就是我們現在瓜地馬拉跟加勒比亞兩個邦交國那是不是在加勒比海或者是其他地方我們也可以擴大我有請同仁去研究可是您剛剛提到的所謂的代為交款這個還沒有報告"},{"start":795.043,"end":821.755,"text":"我直接跟部長講你講那個你真的好好地去研究一下中美洲銀行我們在裡面一席常駐理事你講到好像我們現在已經變成理事主席可以主導中美洲銀行今天台灣如果在裡面是理事主席可以主導整個中美洲銀行要丟錢下去我一定贊成但是台灣過去這幾年被人家當什麼被人家當盤子"},{"start":823.969,"end":824.089,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：南非對於我們國家這種粗暴的要求，全體國人都應該站在政府背後做外交部最強的後盾，我覺得對外我們的立場要一致，對內大家有不同看法沒關係，對外立場一定要一致，這個是我向來的原則。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：在這個原則下，正式進入今天的主題以前，有幾個問題請教一下部長，請問我們是什麼時候接到南非這個無理的要求？"],["林部長佳龍：大概去年12月的時候他們有口頭表達，今年4月的時候就有跟我們提出限期半年內要搬遷館處。"],["黃委員國昌：那過去半年我們做了什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們透過各種的溝通，因為南非剛好有總統跟國會的大選，所以我們跟各黨派其實都有聯繫，希望在大選之後有所調整。","另外，跟美、日以及一些理念相近國家其實是有很頻繁的在討論，他們也替我們去逕洽南非政府，甚至在一些國際場合，相當層次的外交部代表有向南非表達關切。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，這個過程的還原，我覺得滿重要的，因為我看不管是媒體或者是有一些委員質詢，說我們突然收到這樣的通知，但因為跟我看到南非那邊的外電所寫得不太一樣，所以我第一個先把事實的經過先還原。"],["林部長佳龍：對，就是10月7號在我們國慶酒會的時候特別又發了一個電函。"],["黃委員國昌：是，因為南非那邊的官員是講說他們已經給臺灣充足的時間做準備了，我看到這個外電的時候有點驚訝，因為跟我在臺灣媒體上所看到的不太一樣，所以事實先釐清，這是第一個。","第二個，我們現在在南非那邊的辦事處，那個地方的所有權是我們的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以依照南非的法律，它有權力要求我們搬走嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：就是那個產權是我們的，它沒辦法逕行幫我們改變……"],["黃委員國昌：第一個是所有權沒有辦法移轉……"],["林部長佳龍：但是館處搬遷，我們有1997年的雙邊協議……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，不好意思，我們的問答就請針對問題回答，你之前回答其他委員時，那些講過的話就不要再講了。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題很具體，南非辦事處的產權是我們的嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，它也沒辦法逼我們賣掉嘛？它可以逼我們賣掉嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：呃，沒有辦法吧。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第三個，依照目前南非的法律跟相關的國際條約，它有可能強制要我們搬走嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：如果以合法的手段，它除非有什麼樣的法令依據嘛，不然的話它不能夠違法。"],["黃委員國昌：我先提醒部長一件事，就是我們要在外交上面作戰很辛苦，但是你既然要作戰，你也談到法律手段，就要把相關的法令請研究清楚，這樣模棱兩可沒有辦法對外作戰的啦！"],["林部長佳龍：對，跟委員報告，其實法律方面的權益，我們也都研究過，就是透過訴訟，如果它對我們有一些強制行為是違法的。"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，所以除非他們對我們使用強制力，要不然的話，我們自己不會搬走，立場是不是這個樣子？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第三個部分，目前南非駐在臺灣的辦事處，那個應該是用租的吧？"],["林部長佳龍：租的。"],["黃委員國昌：租的嘛，在它租約沒有終止以前，依照臺灣的法律，我們有沒有辦法強制它搬走？"],["林部長佳龍：這個我有請同仁在研究……"],["黃委員國昌：那研究的結論是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然會有個期間啦，因為這個還是要按照我們的法律，我們是法治國家嘛，它如果說它自己要……"],["黃委員國昌：不要一直抽象講依照我們的法律，我再把問題講清楚，它的辦事處在臺北是租的嘛，它有個房東嘛，在它租約沒有終止以前，依照我們國家的法律，我們外交部可不可以逼它搬離臺北市到新北市去？"],["林部長佳龍：我們是可以去找跟它的簽約對象，因為這種情況應該在契約裡面都有說明，如果有一些情境是可以終止契約。"],["黃委員國昌：所以剛剛您所講的是按照契約的條款，我們可以要求那個房東跟它終止契約？"],["林部長佳龍：另外，我們可以要求它先停止運作嘛，因為這個是在我們……"],["黃委員國昌：這麼嚴重喔？要求它停止運作？這個是你的報復手段之一就對了？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我希望啦，我提這些問題，我只希望部長要想清楚，我們國人一定做外交部的後盾……"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：但不管是對外的法律戰，或者是對內，臺灣是一個法治國家，我們總不可能像2017年奈及利亞要我們遷離的時候派25個武裝警察強迫我們搬走嘛，臺灣不可能幹這種事嘛，既然臺灣不會幹這種事情，因為我相信2017年的經驗，外交部的同仁應該都很熟啦，我們臺灣不會幹這種事，所以對內的法律戰，我也請部長先準備好。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為不管是外交、法律，我們臺灣是民主法治的國家，我們一切依法來做，我們要以理服人，不是以力服人，這樣我們在國際社會才會得到尊重嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子的態度，部長也同意嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我很快地進入我今天的主題，我一直很關心CABEI這一件事情，所以我之前離開立法院的時候，中美洲銀行是一個獨裁者的金庫，我跟國際的反貪腐組織合作，那個錢不可以拿去胡搞瞎搞。那中美洲銀行怎麼胡搞瞎搞，為什麼我會關心？因為關臺灣的事嘛。我們是第一大股東，占有的持股超過11%耶，第一大股東耶，所以那個時候，即使是美國的CSIS都希望臺灣這邊要注意，不要讓CABEI胡搞瞎搞，成為獨裁者的金庫，要不然我們臺灣，我們在號稱我們要用民主法治跟人權加入民主同盟，用價值在國際社會行走，結果我們竟然去資助一個獨裁者的金庫，這對於臺灣的國際形象傷害太大了。部長同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續往下看。臺灣對於中美洲銀行，我必須老實講，作為一位臺灣人，我們真的是盡心盡力，沒有虧待中美洲的那些友邦。我們一開始加入中美洲銀行是為了什麼？就是為了要穩定我們在中美洲的邦交。所以你看一開始的創始會員國，區域內的創始會員國本來都跟我們有邦交的，結果搞到現在只剩兩個，有五個在蔡政府時期的時候斷交，哥斯大黎加是2007年的時候就斷交，當然這個背後都有老共的影子，我們大家都心知肚明。在國際上行走的時候，臺灣人對於中美洲那邊需要的協助，我們是出錢出力，從來沒有缺席過，但是過去這幾年，我們一路上看下來變成是什麼？我們一開始在中美洲銀行投資那麼多，是因為裡面都是我們的邦交國，結果搞到現在紛紛斷交剩下兩個：一個貝里斯，一個瓜地馬拉。","然後再來，這個是我們在中美洲銀行股款的繳納，來，我直接看，臺灣的排名是第一名，到最近第八次增資的時候，國際社會已經在質疑中美洲銀行在幹什麼，成為獨裁者的金庫，第八次增資的時候，有很多其他區域外的會員國，大家對於要再拿錢出來是充滿了猶豫，我們應該再把錢往裡面砸嗎？砸進去了以後，錢跑到哪裡去？真的跑去幫助人民嗎？跑去幫助學童嗎？跑去幫助婦女嗎？還是跑到了貪污者、獨裁者的口袋裡面去。","所以第八次增資的時候，我老實講，立法院在那個時候就我們到底要不要參加這件事情，有少數了解情況關心的委員開始在質詢的時候，大家是很在乎，在面對國際社會的時候，蔡英文前總統說，不會跟中國進行無意義的金錢外交競逐，部長同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：也同意嘛？這個也是你說的嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我最後一個問題，中美洲銀行那邊，我們會不會幫其他的國家繳股款？"],["林部長佳龍：其他的國家繳？"],["黃委員國昌：股款，第八次增資的股款，會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：同仁……我們沒有這個規劃嘛？"],["黃委員國昌：我只要你一句話就好，因為我接到檢舉……"],["林部長佳龍：不會。"],["黃委員國昌：我接到檢舉，說臺灣有可能會幫其他國家繳股款，我只要確認這件事情，我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款，會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：剛剛同仁講，他們並沒有這樣的計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：確定沒有？我只要你一句話，有還是沒有？會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：第八次增資，來，你來說明一下。"],["孫司長儉元：報告委員，增資的部分，我們不會協助任何國家來繳股款。"],["黃委員國昌：確定？絕對不會拿臺灣納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款，這個是確定的事情了，是嗎？"],["孫司長儉元：我是講第八次增資的部分我們不會繳股款。"],["黃委員國昌：那未來呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明一下，其實我們現在除了加強監督，還有你提到的這個……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！這個我都知道，要加強監督，你們志在裡面有積極的角色……"],["林部長佳龍：我們希望引導中美洲銀行……"],["黃委員國昌：但請回答我一個關鍵的問題，在國會裡面把話說清楚，我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款？我只問這件事，會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：好，請同仁說明。"],["黃委員國昌：你們今天在國會裡面講話就要負責任，會還是不會？"],["孫司長儉元：是，報告委員，就是我們希望能夠協助友邦，也增加在中美洲銀行的影響力，共同抗衡資助獨裁政權，所以這個部分確實在我們的考慮之列。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了！你們的問題怎麼反覆啊？剛剛部長說不會，你現在又說考慮。"],["林部長佳龍：他是說第八次增資，我跟委員說明一下，我們是希望把中美洲銀行改造成配合榮邦計畫，事實上，現在也相對單純，那也不只中美洲，我們在加勒比海，甚至在南美洲，我是覺得我們怎麼樣去善用這樣的銀行的資源……"],["黃委員國昌：要花多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：我還沒有看到這方面的規劃報告，因為委員關心，我會特別留意。"],["黃委員國昌：我只講一件事，繼續投錢下去，甚至是幫其他的國家繳錢，拿臺灣納稅人的錢去繳，丟到裡面去，我希望外交部要慎重，一定要慎重。這家銀行過去是怎麼對待臺灣，發展到今天的歷史，我們繼續投錢下去還不夠，如果還要拿臺灣納稅人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款，我希望外交部要慎重考慮。"],["林部長佳龍：是，我也跟委員說明一下，我們是不是可以從另外一個角度看我們怎麼樣去積極影響中美洲銀行，可以來發揮我們的榮邦計畫？因為現在相對比較單純，我們現在就是瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯兩個邦交國，那是不是在加勒比海或者是其他地方我們也可以擴大，我有請同仁去研究，可是您剛剛提到的所謂的代為繳款，這個部分同仁還沒有提報告給我。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！我直接跟部長講，你講那個，你真的要好好的去研究一下中美洲銀行，我們在裡面是一席常駐理事，你講到好像我們現在已經變成理事主席，可以主導中美洲銀行，今天臺灣如果在裡面是理事主席，可以主導整個中美洲銀行，那我一定贊成丟錢下去，但是臺灣過去這幾年被人家當什麼？被人家當盤子，被人家當盤子還不夠，如果還要再幫其他國家出錢，我是很軟性地跟部長講，請慎重，請慎重。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：當然這筆錢該花不該花，國會一定要嚴格把關，好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員，部長請回。接下來我們請伍麗華委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f03926c905a6ecb8fbb7a8b6cc2b6ae9b7315d8d3eec934e27396dcc70422ddb965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:41:02 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那個國家是歐盟的國家"},{"start":229.98,"end":236.709,"text":"就是西班牙已經有洽談好可以接受的國家已經洽談好所以短期之內就會有動作應該是"},{"start":240.526,"end":242.729,"text":"部長我不希望對我們也希望不要有任何人把台灣當是避風港"},{"start":261.61,"end":269.724,"text":"不要以為說台灣我們中華民國是話外之地如果說該遣送就遣送要處理合理制裁但更重要的是這件事情如果沒有聯繫好的話會讓國人滑爛"},{"start":272.645,"end":301.687,"text":"所以我們這幾天很密切的在聯繫遣送的話是不是也發一個新聞稿讓大家知道是說我們讓他依法來去做後續的處理好我們盡速跟社會大眾報告再來部長請教南非住管限期被迫遷移的部分那我們也很重視啊我想我不容許我們也認為是說我們的感情也好我們的相關的一個法令也好怎麼會突然有任何國家要求我們的這個住管要遷移而且"},{"start":302.307,"end":302.767,"text":"有,我們有召見。"},{"start":328.1,"end":344.345,"text":"他怎麼講?他就是由南非外交部透過一個電函給我們住處我們就是針對這個我們也有富含南非政府就是表達我們的立場"},{"start":345.205,"end":348.786,"text":"對﹖那他怎麼說不是你親自召見為什麼你要請人家講你剛講你親自召見然後你要請別人回答是"},{"start":373.888,"end":398.139,"text":"有沒有召見啊來我們部長洪仁你這樣讓我懷疑你好像沒有召見耶好 洪仁跟委員報告部長是我召見的是我召見的好因為那天部長正好另外有工忙是嘛所以事情一出來之後我立即就請南非組的代表到辦公室那部長下次國會殿堂有一說一你有時間很忙你也可以講時間很忙但是我們這共同關心來來這個是"},{"start":411.771,"end":421.477,"text":"他當然是忠實的轉達他們政府的政策了那我也代表他們政府政策為什麼會這樣做以前沒有現在突然間這樣做他的理由是什麼"},{"start":422.435,"end":437.715,"text":"那這是他作為前線的這個出外代表他是執行他政府的政策那我們當然也代表政府向他表達最強烈的抗議跟我們的不滿還有不能接受不能接受嘛國人沒有辦法接受喔來部長"},{"start":439.741,"end":468.386,"text":"部長沒有辦法接受那我有看到你說研議小組那研議小組現在是只有除了說比較具體的有可能要求駐台的南非辦事處遷離台北市對不對我們用一樣的動作反制當然有人就講是說到底這樣子會懲罰到誰但另外一個部分啊我們還有沒有更具體如果說10月底到了南非政府真的在他們的首都對於我們的外館"},{"start":469.525,"end":483.424,"text":"有很強硬的動作我們怎麼樣保護我們外管的同仁我們當然會以外管同仁的安全就是做最重要那在這個期間因為他"},{"start":484.423,"end":507.638,"text":"如果有違法的行動我們也會訴諸法律嘛那這些強制的行為影響到我們住管人員的安全我們會以安全保護我們的住管人員如果11月1號我不知道南非政府怎麼做但如果11月1號真的有他們政府或相關人士我們的住管人員要去開門要去open9點鐘到了要營業"},{"start":509.159,"end":535.209,"text":"結果他們有人阻撓不讓我們開門怎麼辦這個情境我們都有做沙盤推演我們就是說因為那個產權是我們台灣的嘛中華民國的所以他任何的詳細行為都有違法我們當然會訴諸我們的法律的保障所以我們會提起國際仲裁"},{"start":536.409,"end":559.525,"text":"還是什麼樣的一個國際的法庭這個如果是屬於他違反他們自己國家的法律我們當然也會伸張我們的權益啊是 現在我們但是同一陣線我沒有辦法允許任何國家即便我們剛剛沒有邦交但是突然間一紙公文要求說十月底搬離我拆違建也沒有拆成這樣子啊"},{"start":560.565,"end":580.814,"text":"更何況是在我們正式我們中華民國的一個辦事處那一樣嘛我現在講的是說後續如果說他真的那麼強硬的態度那我們有什麼國際上應有作為你剛也講了1997年他等於是片面毀約那如果片面毀約的話我們有什麼救濟管道國際仲裁有沒有"},{"start":582.564,"end":583.844,"text":"聯合國我們有沒有資格"},{"start":612.323,"end":627.629,"text":"我當然是鼓勵你要去打意見支持我們的意見多表達但重點在是我們還有什麼方法可以做我們有相應的反制的作為包括我們就是基於對等的原則我們也會就是要求"},{"start":629.07,"end":629.851,"text":"臺灣2300萬人尊嚴最後一個請教我們現在非洲"},{"start":658.593,"end":683.01,"text":"有幾個邦交國一個哪一個斯瓦帝尼斯瓦帝尼他現在對於我們因為斯瓦帝尼相對來講跟南非關係好像也不錯對算是密切嘛因為他在他的南非裡面而且上個月該國國王也迎娶了南非前總統的女兒啊所以他們可能經濟政治等等都有相關的一些交流"},{"start":684.358,"end":690.905,"text":"施瓦帝尼 如果說現在南非有這樣的一個狀況粗暴的一個動作的話我們施瓦帝尼的邦交穩定嗎"},{"start":692.418,"end":694.2,"text":"部長最後一次跟我們斯瓦帝尼大使通電話或是瞭解相關的資訊是什麼時候?"},{"start":718.404,"end":747.237,"text":"我因為電報非常的快速啦所以我們幾乎是每天啊都對這個情況都施法定理這個部分也是都保持聯繫都有掌握對好 部長本席要提醒啊12個邦交國是我們現在中華民國還有的那本席真的不希望有任何的邦交國再有任何的一個鬆動所以也希望外交部要努力好那該掌握的情報要掌握是好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":748.895,"end":749.359,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時41分）主席謝謝，麻煩請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，最近大家關心有一個國際詐欺犯騙了10億元，來到臺灣5年了，後來被我們移民署掌握，現在要把他遣送，沒想到遣送到了新加坡，新加坡不收，現在又退回來。本席看到現在由外交部協助，是要跟歐盟這邊來做聯繫溝通，我們說沒有辦法直接送回給西班牙，讓他們去做相關的刑事處罰，是因為我們沒有直飛班機。我想請教一下，已經回來臺灣一天多的時間，目前外交部有怎麼樣的協助進展？"],["林部長佳龍：現在內政部移民署他們在處理當中，就是已經有聯繫……"],["洪委員孟楷：聯繫誰？西班牙？"],["林部長佳龍：應該西班牙有跟歐盟的國家聯繫，所以已經有洽談要遣送的國家，他們之間會再進行，因為這涉及到一些引渡條約。再來，因為這是國際刑警組織發布的紅色通報，所以我們都是支持配合他們遣返的作業。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然支持配合沒有問題，你是外交部部長，我在外交委員會為什麼會點出這個問題？當然這與移民署相關，但是我們看到報導講說外交部幫忙跟西班牙政府協商，這是西班牙政府應該要管轄的，那個人逃來臺灣5年，在臺灣吃香喝辣5年，大家沒有辦法接受。現在他變成人球，說要送到新加坡，結果新加坡又把他退回來，我不知道這到底是移民署沒有溝通好，還是外交部沒有溝通好？不過被送回當人球是事實，我們看到新聞報導是昨天早上6點已經回到臺灣，但沒有辦法讓他入境，所以他現在變成是三不管，他有可能是在境外，也就是海關這邊，那我們現在想要問的是，什麼時候他可以接受法律的制裁？要多久時間？他現在這一段在海關的費用誰處理？還是我們中華民國政府處理耶！"],["林部長佳龍：這個已經有洽談好，因為西班牙跟現在我們要遣送的對象國家已經有洽談好了。"],["洪委員孟楷：哪個國家？有確定了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這個是他們的……我想涉及到一些……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是機密嗎？如果機密你可以不要講，但我想問有確定了是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經確定了？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時候這一個人可以送回？"],["林部長佳龍：應該就在辦理中嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候啊？我們現在已經……"],["林部長佳龍：用最快的速度，如果有班機，然後因為有要接的國家，雖然從新加坡那邊去，因為他們先前以為是他們同意，後來就是說沒有辦理、沒有辦法在新加坡，所以就又遣返臺灣，然後現在已經要遣送到第三國。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以已經確認遣送第三國？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那個國家是歐盟的國家？"],["林部長佳龍：就是西班牙已經有洽談好可以接受的國家。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經洽談好？所以短期之內就會有動作？"],["林部長佳龍：應該是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我覺得你好像在狀況外耶！"],["林部長佳龍：因為我現在在立法院，雖然相關作業程序我隨時都有掌握，但是因為班機是什麼時候、進行到哪裡，我想就是由執行單位，包括移民署他們之間在處理中。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們也希望不要有任何人把臺灣當成避風港，不要以為我們中華民國臺灣是化外之地，如果該遣送就遣送，而且要合理制裁，但更重要的是，這件事情若沒有聯繫好的話，會讓國人譁然，所以如果說遣送……"],["林部長佳龍：所以我們這幾天很密切的在聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，如果遣送的話，是不是也發一個新聞稿讓大家知道我們讓他依法去做後續的處理？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們儘速跟社會大眾報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來請教南非駐館限期被迫遷移的部分，我們也很重視，我想我們不容許，也認為不管感情也好，相關的一個法令也好，怎麼會突然有任何國家要求我們的駐館要遷移，而且蠻不禮貌的，說限期10月底要遷移。早上你已經有回答過了，但你說很多的應變小組也做了，現在應變小組除了我們對於南非駐臺灣的辦事處，我們有沒有找南非駐臺灣的代表來溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼會有那麼粗暴的一個作為？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們有召見。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後他怎麼講？"],["林部長佳龍：他怎麼講？就是南非外交部，透過一個電函給我們駐處，我們針對這個也有復函南非政府，表達我們的立場，也會據理力爭，因為這是片面毀約，違反我們1997年雙邊簽署的協議架構。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，是你親自召見駐臺的南非代表嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那他怎麼說？"],["林部長佳龍：我請我們司長。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，他怎麼說？不是你親自召見，為什麼你要請人家講？你剛剛講你親自召見，然後你要請別人回答？有沒有召見啦？"],["林部長佳龍：來，我們同仁……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你這樣讓我懷疑，你好像沒有召見耶！"],["林部長佳龍：好，同仁……"],["賀司長忠義：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，部長！"],["賀司長忠義：是我召見的，是我召見的，因為那天部長正好另外有公忙，所以事情一出來之後，我立即就請南非駐臺代表到我辦公室。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！部長，下次國會殿堂有一說一，你很忙，你也可以講很忙，但是我們共同關心。來，這個是非洲司司長，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：亞非司。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，亞非司司長賀忠義，是不是？來，賀司長，那個代表怎麼說？"],["賀司長忠義：他當然是忠實的轉達他們政府的政策，我也代表……"],["洪委員孟楷：他們政府政策為什麼會這樣做，以前沒有現在突然間這樣做，他的理由是什麼？"],["賀司長忠義：他作為前線的駐外代表，他是執行他們政府的政策，我們當然也代表政府向他表達最強烈的抗議跟我們的不滿，還有不能接受。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能接受嘛！國人沒有辦法接受啊！部長，我們沒有辦法接受，我有看到你說研議小組，那研議小組現在有除了比較具體的，有可能要求駐臺的南非辦事處遷離臺北市，對不對？我們用一樣的動作反制，當然有人就講，到底這樣子會懲罰到誰？另外一個部分，我們還有沒有更具體的？如果說10月底到了，南非政府真的在他們的首都，對於我們的外館有很強硬的動作，我們怎麼樣保護外館的同仁？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然會以外館同仁的安全這個為最重要啦！在這個期間它如果有違法的行動，我們也會訴諸法律嘛！如果強制的行為……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果11月1號……"],["林部長佳龍：影響到我們駐館人員的安全，我們會以安全、保護我們的駐館人員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果11月1號，我不知道南非政府怎麼做，但如果11月1號真的有他們政府或相關人士，當我們的駐館人員要去開門，要去open，9點鐘到了要營業，結果他們有人阻撓不讓我們開門怎麼辦？"],["林部長佳龍：這個情境我們都有做沙盤推演……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["林部長佳龍：因為那個產權是我們臺灣的嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：中華民國的啦！"],["林部長佳龍：所以它任何強制的行為，如果有違法，我們當然會訴諸法律的保障，那因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們會提起國際仲裁？還是什麼樣的一個國際的法庭？"],["林部長佳龍：如果是屬於它違反他們自己國家的法律，我們當然也會伸張我們的權益。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，現在我們待在同一陣線，我沒有辦法允許任何國家，即便我們跟它沒有邦交，但是突然間一紙公文要求10月底搬離，拆違建也沒有拆成這樣子啊！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：更何況是在正式的我們中華民國的一個辦事處，那一樣嘛，我現在講是後續，如果它真的用那麼強硬的態度，我們有什麼國際上應有作為？你剛剛也講了1997年，所以它等於是片面毀約，如果片面毀約的話，我們有什麼救濟管道？國際仲裁有沒有？聯合國裡我們有沒有資格提？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們的因應方案，隨著現在的發展，包括他們南非聯合政府裡面的成員也發表不同意見，表示這沒有經過內閣會議，因為新政府在大選後剛組閣，也有他們的國會議員，還包括很有影響力的媒體，另外我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講這些都是外部因素，本席現在要問的主要核心問題是我們能夠怎麼做……"],["林部長佳龍：我剛才講的是……"],["洪委員孟楷：鼓勵你把支持我們的意見多表達，但重點在於我們還有什麼方法可以做？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有相應的反制作為，就是基於對等的原則，也會要求他們，他們對我們不公平的對待，我們也會有一些因應的作為，包括他們臺灣的駐處，我們會要求同樣的方式……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，看起來你還是在繞圈圈啊！"],["林部長佳龍：也要遷離我們的首都。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我希望你能夠硬起來，中華民國的尊嚴，臺灣2,300萬人的尊嚴。","最後請教，我們現在在非洲有幾個邦交國？"],["林部長佳龍：1個。"],["洪委員孟楷：哪一個？"],["林部長佳龍：史瓦帝尼。"],["洪委員孟楷：史瓦帝尼，相對於我們來講，現在史瓦帝尼跟南非關係好像也不錯？"],["林部長佳龍：對，算是密切，因為它在南非裡面。"],["洪委員孟楷：而且上個月該國國王也迎娶了南非前總統的女兒，所以他們可能經濟、政治等等都有相關的一些交流。如果現在南非有這樣的狀況、粗暴的動作的話，我們和史瓦帝尼的邦交穩定嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：穩定，我們都密切注意，也特別加強。"],["洪委員孟楷：有特別加強？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼樣的特別加強？"],["林部長佳龍：因為史王在今年我們520總統、副總統就職典禮的時候，我有機會跟他做比較密切的交換意見，有一些合作事項也都順利在進行中。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，最後一次跟史瓦帝尼大使通電話或是瞭解相關的資訊是什麼時候？"],["林部長佳龍：因為電報非常的快速，所以我們幾乎是每天都對這個情況……史瓦帝尼也都保持聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：都有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席要提醒，12個邦交國是現在中華民國還有的，本席真的不希望再有任何的邦交國鬆動，所以也希望外交部要努力。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：該掌握的情報要掌握。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，部長請回。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強，羅智強委員不在。","接下來請陳培瑜委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155838","video_url":"https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曉玲"},{"start":189.747,"end":213.484,"text":"大法官會議的時代到現在幾十年來的理解都是一致的也不會因為憲法訴訟法制定以後有不同而且跟其他相關的制度跟包含剛才委員所推詢的立法院執行司法這相關的規定都是一樣的理解所以我們是認為說如果要就憲法訴訟法的這個憲法總和去比擬到法制統和我覺得真的是有斟酌的餘地"},{"start":215.566,"end":237.759,"text":"好那這個委員在這個提案的這個立法理由裡面有寫到是要避免單一或是少數這個觀點主導判決但修法的這個版本將門檻提高卻可能讓在實務上產生自愛難行的情況可能包括這個憲法訴訟法第12條"},{"start":239.58,"end":264.8,"text":"大法官依法迴避或因其他事由缺席。我想請教副秘書長在實際的舉例修法所造成實務上難以作成判決的原因以及在現行的制度下大法官對於各項會議的參與情形及投入的情況程度為何是否曾發生委員所擔心的由少數觀點主導判決的這種極端情形產生"},{"start":268.919,"end":290.491,"text":"跟委員報告那之前有跟各位委員報告過從以往到現在說因為只有少數兩三位大法官就決定一個重要的這種憲政議題憲法上面的議題目前是沒有沒有啦所以說所以說我們也是認為說今天"},{"start":291.411,"end":307.535,"text":"希望說大法官嚴謹做成裁判這個我相信是每個人意見都一樣但是修法如果像各位委員所執行的這個樣子那麼會導致可預見的這個未來極可能極可能讓這個憲法法庭沒有辦法運作"},{"start":308.075,"end":309.396,"text":"因為拖個一個禮拜就不必再判了"},{"start":332.831,"end":333.031,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":352.523,"end":353.644,"text":"陳俊宇發言委員"},{"start":368.743,"end":368.883,"text":"司法委員．"},{"start":384.987,"end":403.637,"text":"在山拜託大院各位委員能夠三思的地方。好,那我們從這個圖表上齁,圖表上這個歷年的這個大法官判決的門檻齁,這個部分我們請那個副秘員您看一下齁,每年平均的這個判決數從1958年的這個大法官會議法到1993年的大審法,"},{"start":407.219,"end":424.666,"text":"再到如今的這個憲訴法隨著大法官出席和表決的門檻下修做成判決的案件數也隨之提升那符合當初下修門檻讓憲法法庭效能提升案件較容易審結的這個目標我想請教副秘書長若再設"},{"start":426.107,"end":437.969,"text":"社高這個大法官參與和表決的門檻提升判決的這個難度是否會將導致判決數可能再度的銳減那更會直接影響到人民權利的這個保障"},{"start":438.78,"end":457.093,"text":"委員報告,憲法訴訟法就是之前的2017年的司法改革國事會議,要求說必須降為多數決,那就是因為要解決以往因為門口非常的高,一些人民權益救濟的案件,因為"},{"start":457.873,"end":483.185,"text":"不管各方的見解都達不到原來要求的這些門檻的時候導致沒有辦法一直長久沒有辦法解決這些人民權益的這些問題因此那個司法國會要求降低到過半數那也參考其他國家的制度憲法訴訟法才會這樣子定定如果現在又修回去即可能有一些的案件又會回到早些年沒有辦法解決的問題的情形"},{"start":485.165,"end":513.235,"text":"好那從目前的這個國會的僵局來看針對大法官的這個人事同意權的行使恐怕一再延宕那很有可能從下週五開始我們的司法院正副院長都將首次出現同時出缺那根據司法院組織法第七條第五項由總統就大法官中指定一位代理院長但不論是由哪位大法官來代理首長畢竟只能作為這個過渡期的職務代理"},{"start":513.715,"end":535.467,"text":"那不論是要進行任何的這個政務決策或是這個法規修正正當性可能都會受到質疑。我想請教副秘針對接下來極有可能發生多名這個首長懸缺及代理的情形對司法院及下轄的這個各級法院的政務推動可能會產生多大的這種程度影響。"},{"start":537.102,"end":560.161,"text":"跟委員報告站在司法院的立場當然希望說我們新任的這個司法院長能夠順利的及時來產生因為我們司法院非常多的這些重要的這個司法的政策包含改革的方向包含說跟大院承諾或是我們認知各界的需要去改變的這些司法的這些作為都需要新的這個首長來去做這個決斷"},{"start":563.544,"end":564.465,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":580.363,"end":603.505,"text":"我想憲法法庭不只是負責審查立法院的職權或是死刑這類的重大議題更多的可能是針對人民基本權益的保障以及對行政權及立法權的制衡況且當下我們處於立法院職權憲判出爐的前夕"},{"start":604.286,"end":633.09,"text":"且這個大法官人事案還未獲得這個排審那對於憲法訴訟制度的這個檢討容易失焦那淪為這個侵犯司法權的政治攻防手段因此我們的主張若不審查這個大法官的人事權就不應該審查這個憲法訴訟法避免這個司法院首長持續懸缺也避免憲法法庭的停擺而損及人民的權益這部分"},{"start":633.53,"end":633.911,"text":"主席陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（13時57分）謝謝主席。我們有請黃副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：副秘書長午安。從今天早上的會議開始，我們各位委員所發言時，就不斷強調這個憲訴法的修法茲事體大，審查的不只是第四條和第九十五條，連動到目前已經逕付二讀的另外兩條，對於憲法法庭的制度以及人民向大法官尋求救濟的權利都有直接的影響，所以應該先召開公聽會，邀請憲法學者專家對修法內容廣納社會的建言，同時也希望先進行大法官人事同意權的審查，避免大法官及院長懸缺，對於憲法訴訟制度需要再精進或是檢討的部分，進行更細緻的討論，想先借今天的詢答機會，就兩者對於司法機關運作的影響來就教我們副秘。","首先是憲法訴訟法第四條，要修正大法官現有的總額明定為法定的總額，也就是憲法增修條文第五條所定的法定人數為15位大法官，但若將五院當中以委員制運作的機關比較有關人數總額的規定來看，包括在本院的職權行使法第四條第二項當中寫到，有關立法委員的總額，是以每會期實際報到的人數為計算的標準，並排除掉會期中辭職還有去職者，人數會因為不同情況而流動，現有的總額也應該以現行在職的人數為準。那我想請教副秘，你認為現有的總額和法定總額應該如何區分以避免混淆？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想我們相關法制除了憲法訴訟法以外，現有總額在很多會議制的都會存在，所以基本上來講，現有跟法定既然用語不一樣，一般的理解真的不太能夠說這兩個是一樣的。現有總額當然是指現在能夠行使職權，通常理解是這樣，所以缺額的情形或者是辭職、辭任的情形，要說這也算入現有總額，跟我們一般的理解確實是有落差，所以我們才會在書面報告裡面說，其實憲法訴訟法的現有總額，從大法官會議的時代到現在，幾十年來的理解都是一致的，也不會因為憲法訴訟法制定以後有不同，而且跟其他相關的制度，包含剛才委員所垂詢的立法院職權行使法這些相關的規定，都是一樣的理解，所以我們是認為說，如果要就憲法訴訟法的現有總額去比擬到法定總額，我覺得真的是有斟酌的餘地。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。委員在這個提案的立法理由裡面有寫到，要避免單一或是少數的觀點主導判決，但是修法的這個版本將門檻提高，卻可能在實務上產生窒礙難行的情況，可能包括憲法訴訟法第十二條，大法官依法迴避或因其他事由缺席。我想請教副秘書長，實際的舉例，修法所造成實務上難以做成判決的原因，以及在現行的制度下，大法官對於各項會議的參與情形及投入情況的程度為何？是否曾發生委員所擔心的由少數觀點主導判決的這種極端情形產生？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，之前有跟各位委員報告過，從以往到現在，只有少數兩、三位大法官就決定一個重要的這種憲政議題、憲法上面的議題，目前是沒有。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒有嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有啦！所以我們也是認為說，今天希望大法官嚴謹做成裁判，這個我相信每個人的意見都一樣，但是修法如果像各位委員所質詢的這個樣子，那麼會導致可預見的未來極可能讓憲法法庭沒有辦法運作，導致非常多人民聲請的憲法裁判因此懸在那邊，人民得不到緊急救濟。尤其像剛才剛才委員也有講到，有一些人民聲請救濟還滿緊急的，像之前義大利富商的小孩要帶出去的假處分案件，那個說實話，大法官也要用最快的速度去做成，因為那個拖個一個禮拜就不必再判了，就沒有意義了，所以包含憲法裁判、包含暫時狀態處分，其實我們是希望大法官能順利運作，不要讓它有中斷。今天假設像其他國家如有新任的大法官沒產生，原來的大法官就行使職權到繼任者就任為止，那也是可以去思考的。其實像很多的國家、像我們的公司法等很多的法會認為那是理所當然的解釋，不需要明定。今天假設新的董事沒有產生，我們有很多的實務解釋會認為，即使沒有明定，當然還是要用原來的董事，因為不可能讓這個法人無法運作。我們當然不能去比擬憲法裁判，但我們是希望，因為有很多很急迫的，希望讓它不要產生中斷而沒有辦法順利運作的情形，這是司法院再三拜託大院、各位委員能夠三思的地方。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們從圖表上看歷年大法官判決的門檻，這個部分有請副秘看一下，每年平均的判決數從1958年的大法官會議法到1993年的大審法，再到如今的憲訴法，隨著大法官出席和表決的門檻下修，作成判決的案件數也隨之提升，符合當初下修門檻，讓憲法法庭效能提升，案件較容易審結的這個目標。我想請教副秘書長，如果再設高大法官參與和表決的門檻，提升判決的難度是否將導致判決數可能再度銳減？更會直接影響到對人民權利的保障？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，憲法訴訟法就是因應之前2017年司法改革國是會議，要求必須降為多數決，就是為了解決以往因為門檻非常地高，一些人民權利救濟的案件，不管各方的見解都達不到原來要求的這些門檻的時候，導致長期沒有辦法解決人民權益的這些問題，因此司法國是會議要求降低到過半數，也參考其他國家的制度，憲法訴訟法才會這樣訂定。如果現在又修回去，有一些案件極可能又會回到早些年沒有辦法解決的情形。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。從目前國會的僵局來看，針對大法官人事同意權的行使，恐怕會一再延宕，很有可能從下週五開始，我們司法院正副院長都將首次出現同時出缺。根據司法院組織法第七條第五項「……由總統就大法官中指定一人代理院長」，但不論是由哪位大法官代理首長，畢竟只能作為過渡期的職務代理，不論是要進行任何的政務決策或是法規修正，正當性可能都會受到質疑。我想請教副秘，針對接下來極有可能發生多名首長懸缺及代理的情形，對司法院及轄下各級法院的政務推動可能會產生多大程度的影響？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，站在司法院的立場，當然希望新任的司法院長能夠順利而及時地產生，因為我們司法院有非常多且重要的司法政策，包含改革的方向、跟大院的承諾，或是我們認知到各界須要去改變的司法作為，都須要新的首長作決斷，包含一些重要的人事，在這個時間點如果沒有及時產生新的司法院長，推動這些相關的政務一定會產生相當地影響。以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想憲法法庭不只是負責審查立法院的職權或是死刑這類重大的議題，更多的可能是針對人民基本權益的保障，以及對行政權及立法權的制衡。況且當下，我們處於立法院職權行使法憲判出爐的前夕，且大法官人事案還未獲得排審，對於憲法訴訟制度的檢討容易失焦，淪為侵犯司法權的政治攻防手段，因此我們主張，如果不審查大法官的人事權，就不應該審查憲法訴訟法，避免司法院首長持續懸缺，也避免憲法法庭的停擺，而損及人民的權益。這部分要請副秘，我們對司法院的部分有期待，也希望立法院能夠儘快地把這個問題解決，讓我們所擔心的問題可以排除。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。待會請羅智強委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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民主同盟世界的什麼公開北京喔這個很模糊喔這個不像說比如說CPTPP比如說APEC這是國際組織我們跟美國關係這麼好哪一個國際組織美國幫助我們加入你告訴我"},{"start":536.693,"end":556.758,"text":"其實我們跟美國之間就有很多多邊的這些交流合作的架構啊架構不算啦 組織啊 正式的組織我們希望台灣人你任何做問卷台灣人最需要的就是說我們要有國際的空間因為我們實在太辛苦了老共不斷打壓 幾十年來都打壓不是只有今天才打壓 一直打壓我們當然沒有人疏忽 大家都不疏忽但是我們就要問你國際主義有哪一些美國幫助我們加入 有沒有"},{"start":567.443,"end":576.141,"text":"其實美國都有在幫我們這個不管是協助或者是說很多"},{"start":577.606,"end":582.03,"text":"這個我時間到了不願意比如說WHA也沒有啊CPTPP也沒有啊你講到現在講到這樣2758號也沒有去提案嘴巴講嘴巴講打嘴砲而已啊都沒有實質的其實我們感謝他們為台灣不管是發聲或者是說要講給你聽有什麼用就國際組織要再組織沒有關係比如說WHA他提案啊他還沒有提案"},{"start":607.15,"end":633.035,"text":"他去提案,輸了,我們覺得感激,結果都不是啊,嘴巴講說支持喔支持喔,結果實際上都沒有幫忙啊,這個東西,人家覺得說我們買這麼多的一個武器,都天然攻擊的,我講真實組織,在外面講都不好啦,真實組織裡面講的才有用啦,APEC到現在為止,美國沒有幫我們啊,你剛剛講說可能離心力,為什麼沒辦法懲戒人?"},{"start":634.455,"end":636.616,"text":"這個人選現在還沒有對外宣佈美國要幫忙啊 要幫忙才真的啊"},{"start":663.971,"end":664.432,"text":"好謝謝委員謝謝賴司保委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時29分）謝謝主席，有請外交部林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["賴委員士葆：辛苦了，部長。"],["林部長佳龍：不會，委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看川普最近說話了，他大概因為跟Harris非常接近，可能很焦慮，但是無意中他也露出底牌了，他說如果中國大陸入侵臺灣，課關稅150到200%，這個是不是已經秀出底牌了？他說不會出兵了。再進一步追問，如果大陸打臺灣，不會出兵，他說，因為習近平尊重我，他認識我。你要不要對這個話回應一下？從原來川普在5月底的時候，那時候是打這個牌，也是為了選舉，他說如果大陸打臺灣，他要轟炸北京，怎麼事隔半年左右就縮回去了？通通沒有了，沒有用兵的東西，通通沒有！只有說：我要課他關稅，讓人家覺得虎頭蛇尾，這個東西你要不要評論一下？"],["林部長佳龍：對於美國在選舉期間候選人的發言，我們都很密切關注，但是我們也不予評論，不過各種選後可能的發展，我們也是做好因應的準備。"],["賴委員士葆：你不評論，可以不評論，但是你總是要告訴我們，今天在國會殿堂，你要告訴我們，你要回答我問題……"],["林部長佳龍：所以我剛剛講說有做好因應的準備。"],["賴委員士葆：他原來說要轟炸北京，現在沒有了！沒有北京、沒有上海、沒有廈門，通通都沒有，只有這個課關稅，就是經濟制裁，完全走向對烏克蘭的路，對烏克蘭，也不敢對俄羅斯怎麼樣啊，到目前為止也不敢去打俄羅斯，只有一直給烏克蘭武器、捐助、制裁俄羅斯，一模一樣！他現在對臺灣的路，川普現在對臺灣的路就是跟美國對烏克蘭，幾乎如出一轍，我這樣講對嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我不好意思跟您講不對，但是不太一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼地方不一樣？願聞其詳，說來給我們聽聽，什麼地方不一樣？什麼地方不一樣？你告訴我。"],["林部長佳龍：其實美國的對中對臺的政策，有他的法律依據或是說長期的一個發展……"],["賴委員士葆：烏克蘭更有，說要給烏克蘭加入NATO，加入北約，更有！臺灣還沒有一個treaty，它有一個treaty，一個NATO就可以鼓勵、讓它加入北約，怎麼沒有呢？再來，其他呢？沒有了？只有這個？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他的領導風格，其實我們跟共和黨、民主黨的總統在過去這八年來都有很好的互動嘛，至於說選舉期間有一些怎麼樣或他發言的，我們當然會關注，但是我們不予評論，但會做好因應的準備。"],["賴委員士葆：你的意思就是說，這個是選舉語言，不要理他？"],["林部長佳龍：不是、不是，選舉期間的語言，我們不予評論，但是我們會密切的關注，做好因應的準備。"],["賴委員士葆：這個會兌現喔！這是政見喔！他對大陸要進入美國的item要課稅，加到60%，如果打臺灣要加到150%到200%，這個會兌現的喔，部長，這不是你說選舉語言，這是政見，不是選舉語言。"],["林部長佳龍：不是，我剛講是說我不予評論，不代表他選舉語言沒有效。"],["賴委員士葆：他是政見。"],["林部長佳龍：政見有可能變政策。"],["賴委員士葆：這是他的政見，這不能這樣子小看他，這個……"],["林部長佳龍：不能小看。"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？所以就清楚啊，這就已經告訴我們，他不會對臺灣……不會出兵幫臺灣嘛！只有對中國大陸經濟制裁，跟制裁俄羅斯一模一樣，如出一轍。"],["林部長佳龍：委員，其實你不能替川普回答這個問題，因為他要保持一個他的模糊，比較有談判的籌碼。"],["賴委員士葆：你這樣講模糊，奇怪啊……"],["林部長佳龍：但是他也講過剛剛委員講的包括轟炸北京，所以我意思是說，他們在選舉期間當然有基於他要去訴求選民，我們都要很關注而且做好因應的準備，但是我們不宜過度去介入他們這些選舉的評論。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你是不是比較喜歡聽到他轟炸北京的言論？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有……不予置評這個部分。"],["賴委員士葆：轟炸北京你們多爽，不是這樣嗎？沒有，沒有感覺？"],["林部長佳龍：我就是先不予置評，因為這個……"],["賴委員士葆：現在說一堆啦，我們來看看蔡英文總統一上任以後，川普有打了電話，跟他通了電話，現在請問外交部有沒有準備不管誰當選，川普或是Harris當選，我們都想辦法讓他跟我們的賴總統通電話，有沒有？有沒有做這個準備，請問你？"],["林部長佳龍：我們在研擬未來的趨勢跟可能的劇本的時候，這些都是我們必須要有所……"],["賴委員士葆：就是不能排除啦！"],["林部長佳龍：不能排除。"],["賴委員士葆：就是說有可能有啦，有可能！我們再看下一頁，剛才有委員提到其實蔡英文總統就任的時候，巴拿馬總統瓦雷拉3月就函邀了，因為那時候已經知道結果了嘛！巴拉圭總統卡提斯520面邀，6月就出訪了，現在已經10月快11月了，結果賴總統什麼都沒有，這個會不會……"],["林部長佳龍：邀訪也是有啦！友邦對我們的邀訪都是有的。"],["賴委員士葆：那怎麼他沒有去……"],["林部長佳龍：看什麼時間適合會綜合去考量嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要講一下哪幾國邀訪？"],["林部長佳龍：有就是了。"],["賴委員士葆：你要講啊，在這裡要講啊，在國會殿堂要講啊！你給我們振奮人心一下啊！有哪幾國？"],["林部長佳龍：他們都有表達歡迎啦！而且有些是親自跟我們賴總統邀訪，什麼時候適合，當然這個都會列入評估。"],["賴委員士葆：你既然講了，那就講一個、兩個也可以啊！哪一國？我都不太相信，你跟我講一下，堵住我的嘴啊！"],["林部長佳龍：應該沒有國家說沒有的啦，至於說什麼時候……"],["賴委員士葆：哪個國家有邀訪？是不是可以過境美國？這個比較重要啊！"],["林部長佳龍：這個還沒有決定，等決定了之後，總統府會對外有所……"],["賴委員士葆：言外之意就是美國不答應賴清德過境美國，就是這樣！"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不會的話，為什麼不趕快公布呢？振奮人心一下啊！"],["林部長佳龍：適當的時候就會公布啦。"],["賴委員士葆：因為現在大家都認為是疑賴論啊！"],["林部長佳龍：這不用疑啦……"],["賴委員士葆：美國依賴論喔！"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦，沒什麼變化。"],["賴委員士葆：賴清德的路美國不放心，所以不給他過境啊！"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以公布？"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟美國的關係真的可以說是堅若磐石啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你這樣講，但是人家都不理你啊！中共打臺灣就……"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！我最清楚了，我們的溝通聯繫都非常的暢順。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，我們講民主同盟，民主同盟世界什麼的，講得好像會飛天一樣，其實這個很模糊，不像CPTPP、APEC這些是國際組織，我們跟美國關係這麼好，哪一個國際組織美國幫助我們加入，你告訴我。"],["林部長佳龍：其實我們跟美國之間就有很多多邊交流合作的架構。"],["賴委員士葆：架構不算啦！我說的是正式的組織，不論做任何問卷，臺灣人最需要的就是我們要有國際的空間，因為我們實在太辛苦了，老共不斷打壓，幾十年來都打壓，不是只有今天才打壓，一直打壓，我們當然沒有人舒服，大家都不舒服，但是我們就要問你，國際組織有哪一些是美國幫助我們加入，有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：其實美國都有在國際上面幫我們……"],["賴委員士葆：嘴巴講而已啦！"],["林部長佳龍：不管是協助或者是說很多……"],["賴委員士葆：我的發言時間到了，比如WHA也沒有啊，CPTPP也沒有啊！你講到現在講成這樣，2758號也沒有去提案，嘴巴講只是打嘴炮而已，都沒有實質的，好歹……"],["林部長佳龍：其實我們感謝他們為臺灣不管是發聲或者是說……"],["賴委員士葆：那講給你聽有什麼用？就加入國際組織沒有過沒有關係，比如說WHA它要提案啊，但是它也沒有提案，對不對？它去提案，輸了，我們覺得感激，結果它不是啊，嘴巴講說支持、支持，但實際上都沒有幫忙啊！這會讓人家覺得我們買這麼多的武器，但他們連替我們講一些話都沒有。我講真實數字，在外面講那些都沒有用，要在正式組織裡面講的才有用啦，APEC到現在為止，美國沒有幫我們啊！你剛剛講說可能是林信義，為什麼沒辦法是陳建仁？他好歹當過副總統，位階更高，結果老共打壓它就縮回去。在APEC裡面美國可以講話，美國superpower，實力比老共強太多了，為什麼就美國APEC沒辦法幫我們一下？你利用10秒鐘回答一下。"],["林部長佳龍：這個人選現在還沒有對外宣布。"],["賴委員士葆：就是陳建仁被打槍了，這是事實啊！美國沒幫忙啊！你說多讚又多讚，要幫忙才是真的啊，不然都是嘴巴說說而已。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，部長請回。","接下來請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155836","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155836","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f093528952b602569fb7a8b6cc2b6ae9b7315d8d3eec934e2766db0adbae60701a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:31:10 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這個我的看法就跟翁委員剛好相反那相反不是不能對話 你像比如說大法官其實你說先牽扯到整個事件案件人民的訴訟案件跟行政部門各個機關所提的訴訟案件那是千差萬別啊 也就是說憲法法庭大法官你的意義到底功能到底要幹什麼"},{"start":205.845,"end":205.865,"text":"帶領秘書長"},{"start":217.591,"end":240.085,"text":"你也認為是如此吧?如果是如此的話,那我倒會覺得啊,你也可以建議啊人民的,申請釋憲的,那個反而標準要更低讓他更容易有機會進入到憲法法庭除了他胡說八道嘛,他這個程序不完備,或者說不負任何理由的一看就知道,那不可能來受理的那行政部門的,釋憲的"},{"start":241.846,"end":262.703,"text":"那也許他認為說你本身也是擁有公權力的一個機關那也許他的門檻稍微可以去做一個調高把它區分人民跟政府我不曉得通不通但是我直接的感受就是憲法法庭你本來就是要提供給民眾萬一他受委屈了怎麼辦"},{"start":264.059,"end":268.943,"text":"你像我們很多一審二審三審的案件一個終局判決做下來以後那你怎麼辦?"},{"start":268.943,"end":290.84,"text":"大家申請釋憲啊那理論上到三審定驗了以後這個案子已經結束了可是憲法法庭裡面他現在變成受到的民眾可以拿他憲法法庭的判決裡面來做申請再審這個就是提供人民的一個救濟的機會喔你來告訴我你都不好意思了立法院水準真的我再講一次立法院水準真的沒有很高啦"},{"start":293.71,"end":303.036,"text":"你們要大聲跟社會講 你們要大聲跟社會講 你說談法律見解 你說你司法院站出來還沒有辦法跟立法院對抗 你們就笑死人了不是嗎 那麼多的法律案會被憲法法庭來宣告違憲為什麼社會上會給你們拍手 有原因啦 不是因為你們沒有 你們擁有民意基礎啦 不是"},{"start":320.458,"end":323.88,"text":"你們還是沒有民意基礎﹖可是你們做出來﹖我早上舉了例子啊﹖酒駕的你強制給人家抽血啊﹖大法官就跟你說你要限期修法﹖對不對﹖立法院可能跟你講我理你捏﹖我民選出來我就不理你捏﹖不理你就宣告無效就這麼簡單﹖徹底到人權的保障老百姓就會站在你這一邊﹖"},{"start":346.257,"end":362.262,"text":"不是嗎?應該涉及到一國婚姻的一國子女的監護權的這大法官很有名的一個見解啊你說任何一照要把子女帶出去大法官就跟你講不行也要尊重這一個小朋友他主觀的一個意願裁定就把你給確定判決給廢棄掉啦不是這樣子嗎?所以這個時候大法官你們有沒有民意基礎?沒有啊民眾拍手說大官老"},{"start":378.894,"end":390.121,"text":"什麼時候大法官憲法法庭的法官有過民意基礎沒有啊以前老國代也好老立委也好終生啊做一輩子啊大法官會議做出一個判決定期麻將就該選掉了不是嗎甚至於啊國民黨最怕的是什麼國民黨最怕的是說到底修憲的幅度到什麼地方"},{"start":408.083,"end":433.208,"text":"大法官也可以來有你自己的一個看法以現在台灣的政治環境來看的話看你敢不敢而已啊連制憲都可以啦但是如果站在大法官的立場大法官在我看來已經是極度保守了一個極度保守的一個組成的有一些進步的想法那立法院期待說他一定要有一個民意的一個基礎笑死人了來 你的看法是怎麼樣大膽講出來"},{"start":435.823,"end":458.474,"text":"大法官在作成的時候當然不會是只以名譽為考量啦他最終還是要忠於憲法憲法上面在保障人權的意志是怎麼樣大法官的責任是要正確的闡述這個憲法上面的意志那這個斟酌的情形不會只以名譽去考量是所以我的意思就是說像比如這件照好像大家一直在談說台大那個案子啊"},{"start":459.431,"end":460.332,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":473.39,"end":473.83,"text":"美國就好啦"},{"start":501.24,"end":519.564,"text":"美國沒有憲法法庭,他們叫最高法院,對不對,他們幾個法官,他們幾個大法官?九個啊,對不對,你去看帝國,十五個、十六個,但是他分庭嘛,他強調的也不是民意基礎啊,而且你注意看美國人數多少人,人靠三億的。"},{"start":523.234,"end":532.219,"text":"一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":550.851,"end":564.199,"text":"你不要開玩笑,真的會過喔!所以你們司法院的態度要很硬啊!要去告訴社會,說這個會產生怎麼樣的一個結果啊!我看你若沒了,我看你若沒了!你看以前,老國台你的計劃,擴權,自肥案,導致整個修憲,第五次那一次,不好!為什麼?為什麼修憲可以無效?大法官就跟你說無效!"},{"start":579.178,"end":600.72,"text":"你沒有人會跟你講說你沒有民意基礎啊?那不是這樣講?這台是在講什麼民意的一個基礎啊?所以我倒會比較擔心一點啦,比較擔心一點啦。說我們今天這樣的一個大家這樣的一個法案在做討論的時候啊,司法院本身的立場不夠明確。"},{"start":602.993,"end":621.505,"text":"雖然大法官、憲法法庭是維護自由、民主、憲政秩序跟保障人民基本權利的一個憲法的一個守護神這樣的一個職能你們不能把它給拋棄掉從過去的大法官會議跟現在的憲法法庭裡面那個正當性社會當然可以去挑戰"},{"start":622.566,"end":632.181,"text":"但是呢 這個是一個憲政的一個基礎 如果這一條憲 如果我們 你們自己本身吶 都覺得秤菜都沒關係 我覺得那是很嚴重的事情喔 我很喜歡吶"},{"start":638.291,"end":661.116,"text":"德國聯邦憲法法庭的法官克里爾佛他講過的一句話我來送給你立法者不只是由憲法所劃定界限的機關他也是憲法的共同形成者我覺得這個很重要變成說現代國家的一個憲法行授的一個保證司法院不是立法院的敵人不會是立法院也不會是你們的敵人但是我認為你們講得不夠清楚"},{"start":668.524,"end":675.91,"text":"這真的我是覺得期許啦,10萬人來到這,比較大聲啦,你也不一定要跟人消滅啊,但你那個立場真的要,你立場要很堅硬啊,因為畢竟守護這一部憲法不是只有你司法院啦,是各個憲政機關裡面,連立法院啦,我們都是共同守護憲法的一個夥伴啦,這個你們好不好,要自己要加油,要把社會真的是要去,立場要講得夠清楚,產生的衝擊會是怎麼樣,如果沒有在開玩笑,如果要說逼人的,我告訴你,這一步你不用來。"},{"start":698.268,"end":698.288,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（13時45分）謝謝主席，有請司法院代理秘書長。"],["主席：黃副秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：憲法法庭書記廳廳長也請上來，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，我剛才聽了翁委員跟你的對話，似乎大家的看法又稍微接近了一點。但是我還是有一點非常不認同的地方，憲法法庭、大法官會議，國民黨的朋友一直認為你們沒有民意基礎。很難想像，在我國的各級法院，任何一個判決裡面，會講到所謂民意的基礎，我反而認為大法官、憲法法庭，民意是很沸騰的，各級法院的法官反而要非常保持冷靜、我心如秤，怎麼會是外界的民意多沸騰，希望你怎麼樣那你就怎麼樣！如果是這樣子的話，所謂的獨立於黨派之外，要法官為獨立審判，規定這樣的一個條文就可能就失去其意義。","其實翁委員的立法，我知道他的意思要幹什麼，他一直是希望，大法官、憲法法庭裡面能夠涵蓋更多元的意見和觀點。但是我看了你最近的答詢，我上一次也跟你們講，司法院是一個憲政機關，立法院跟你們其實是平起平坐，你們到這個地方，這一次從翁委員提出他的草案以後，我發現你們的立場踩得不夠硬，為什麼說不夠硬？你們不是為自己而硬，而是為憲政機關，你們該有的態度，你們要讓民眾知道。譬如從翁委員上個會期提到憲法訴訟法的修正條文裡面，這個我相信很多人也會高度質疑，就是會不會變相去卡關到憲法法庭的違憲審查和其他重要的職能？由這整個人數裡面來看，假設憲法法庭組成以後，案件要進來了，第一個就是到底要不要受理，這會牽扯到要不要受理的話，本身就要去做評議；然後一個憲法的判決要做出來以後，你們再評決裡面的人到底還夠不夠；另外第三個就是你還是做一個暫時處分。總共涉及三個環節。我一直認為，譬如說，憲法法庭裡面反而是要把它降低，這點我的看法就跟翁委員剛好相反，相反不是不能對話。其實牽扯到整個釋憲案件，人民的訴訟案件跟行政部門、各個機關所提的訴訟案件，那是千差萬別啊！也就是說，憲法法庭大法官的意義、功能到底要幹什麼？就是要提供一個最後的、限制政府機關的權力，來讓老百姓得到更好的救濟，不是如此嗎？代理秘書長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你也認為是如此嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果是如此的話，我倒會覺得你也可以建議他們啊！人民聲請釋憲的部分反而標準要更低，讓他更容易有機會進入到憲法法庭，除非他胡說八道、程序不完備或者不附任何理由，一看就知道不可能受理的。對於行政部門提出釋憲的部分，也許他認為你本身也是擁有公權力的一個機關，也許它的門檻稍微可以去做一個調高。把它區分人民跟政府。我不曉得通不通，但是我直接的感受就是，憲法法庭本來就是要提供給民眾，萬一他受委屈了，怎麼辦？像我們很多一審、二審、三審的案件，一個終局判決做下來以後，那你怎麼辦？他要聲請釋憲啊！理論上到三審定讞了以後，這個案子已經結束了，可是現在變成民眾可以拿憲法法庭的判決來聲請再審，這個就是提供人民一個救濟的機會。","你們來到這裡都變得不好意思，我再講一次，立法院水準真的沒有很高啦！你們要大聲跟社會講！你們只是比較不好意思這樣說而已。譬如說要談法律見解，你們司法院站出來還沒有辦法跟立法院對抗，不就笑死人了嗎？不是嗎？那麼多的法律案會被憲法法庭宣告違憲，為什麼社會上會給你們拍手？有原因啦！不是因為你們擁有民意基礎啦！不是！你們還是沒有民意基礎，可是你們做出來，大家會說：哇，大法官好棒！我早上舉過例子啊，酒駕的人被強制抽血，大法官就說：你要限期修法！對不對？立法院可能跟你講：我理你？！我是民選出來的，我就不理你！不理你就宣告無效，就這麼簡單！涉及人權的保障，老百姓就會站在你這一邊，不是嗎？你看，涉及異國婚姻子女監護權的，這是大法官很有名的一個見解啊！你說任何一造要把子女帶出去，大法官就跟你講：不行，也要尊重這個小朋友的主觀意願。裁定就把確定判決給廢棄掉了啊！不是這樣子嗎？所以這個時候大法官有沒有民意基礎？沒有啊！可是民眾拍手，說大法官好棒！","什麼時候大法官、憲法法庭的法官有過民意基礎，沒有啊！以前老國代也好，老立委也好，終身啊，做一輩子啊！大法官會議做出一個判決，定期馬上就改選掉了，不是嗎？甚至於國民黨最怕的是什麼？國民黨最怕的是，到底修憲的幅度到什麼地方？大法官也可以有你們自己的看法啊！以現在臺灣的政治環境來看的話，看你敢不敢而已啊！連制憲都可以了啊！但是如果站在大法官的立場，大法官在我看來已經是極度保守、一個極度保守的組成了！有一些進步的想法，立法院卻期待他一定要有一個民意的基礎，笑死人了！","你的看法是怎麼樣？大膽講出來！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官在做成的時候當然不會是只以民意為考量，他最終還是要忠於憲法，看憲法上面在保障人權的意旨是怎麼樣，大法官的責任是要正確的闡述憲法上面的意旨，這個斟酌的情形，不會只以民意去考量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以我的意思就是，譬如今天早上大家一直在談臺大法學院那個案子，你說因為大法官迴避以後剩下九個人，那當然要迴避啊！迴避制度是在不管任何一個訴訟案件裡面，只要碰到都要迴避，如果代理秘書長，假設你的案子一審碰到我，我把你判下去了，你輸了，你上訴到二審，你有夠倒楣，我升官了，你二審又碰到我，我當然要迴避啊！如果不用迴避，你又上訴到三審，剛好我升遷速度更快，你三審全部都碰到我，你倒楣都倒楣死了，當然要迴避啊！所以這個叫做法定事由，全世界各國都一樣，美國就好了，美國沒有憲法法庭，他們叫最高法院，對吧？他們幾個大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：九個。"],["莊委員瑞雄：九個啊！對不對？你去看德國，十五個、十六個，但是他分庭嘛！他強調的也不是民意基礎。而且你注意去看美國的人數多少，他的人口是3億；德國8,000萬。所以我們在跟別人類比的時候，我很擔心這個法案是造成一個產生的衝擊，不然你說尊重大法官有更多元的觀點，這是好事。所以代理秘書長，這個案子如果通過之後，你可以揣測到、預期到……","我跟你講，以現在的人數會過喔！你不要開玩笑，真的會過喔！所以你們司法院的態度要很硬啊！要去告訴社會這個會產生怎麼樣的結果，我看你們也沒有做。你看以前的老國大，你記不記得？擴權自肥案，導致整個第五次修憲無效，為什麼？為什麼修憲可以無效？大法官就跟你說無效，也沒有人會跟你講你沒有民意基礎啊！是不是這樣說？這怎麼會是說什麼民意的基礎？","所以我倒會比較擔心一點啦！今天大家針對這樣的法案在做討論的時候，司法院本身的立場不夠明確，司法院大法官、憲法法庭是維護自由民主憲政秩序跟保障人民基本權利的憲法守護神，這樣的一個職能，你們不能把它給拋棄掉了。從過去的大法官會議跟現在的憲法法庭裡面，社會當然可以去挑戰正當性，但是這是一個憲政的基礎，如果這條線，如果你們自己本身都覺得隨便、沒關係，我覺得那是很嚴重的事情喔！我很喜歡德國聯邦憲法法庭的一位法官P.Kirchhoff講過的一句話，我來送給你，他說立法者不只是由憲法所劃定界限的機關，他也是憲法的共同形成者。我覺得這個很重要，變成現代國家憲法形塑的保證。司法院不是立法院的敵人，不會是啦！立法院也不會是你們的敵人，但是我認為你們講得不夠清楚，我真的是期許，司法院來到這裡，可以大聲一點，你也不一定要跟人家互罵，但是你立場要很堅硬啊！因為畢竟守護這一部憲法不是只有你司法院，是各個憲政機關，連立法院，我們都是共同守護憲法的夥伴，你們自己要加油，好嗎？對社會真的是要把立場講得夠清楚，產生的衝擊會是怎麼樣，否則是在開玩笑？如果要比人頭，我跟你說這一個方法，你不用來，這一個方法，我們一定輸國民黨，加上民眾黨如果舉手，我們就輸了。好，OK！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們下一位請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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9.349,"end":480.39,"text":"外交人才培育"},{"start":497.59,"end":520.201,"text":"真正人才外交我們原住民太多太多這樣的一個有天份的年輕人我希望外交部我還是要再次問要有具體的措施去培育原住民族的外交人才這也是總統的政見我下一次就想要來問問看我們到底有沒有具體的措施可以嗎部長"},{"start":521.172,"end":529.488,"text":"好 請同仁記住喔 這個有緣會再問的喔是是好 謝謝部長喔 您辛苦了 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1117,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時18分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長辛苦了！"],["林部長佳龍：不會，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我在這邊想要提供一些多元的聲音，是關於我們原住民外交的部分。我不知道你知不知道在今年5月的這個新聞，就是中央大學的極地研究中心他們帶了第一批……我先講這是第一批，就是把170種的臺灣小米種源帶到挪威去保存在他們的種子庫，你知道這個消息嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，知道，因為這裡面有一個光合基金會是我創立的，有支持這個計畫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，外交部有沒有支持？"],["林部長佳龍：外交部也有啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很好，那你應該很清楚這個對國際來講、對我們的整個氣候變遷來講、對整個全球農業的永續發展來講有沒有重大貢獻？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是你有沒有覺得像這樣子的新聞很小、很小？"],["林部長佳龍：是，很可惜。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很可惜吧！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為每一次我看都只有在原民臺出現，我發現一般的媒體不會報導，但是這是很重要的貢獻、很重要的外交，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那外交部未來要不要在這個地方多著力一點？"],["林部長佳龍：要。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：讓國際看見好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要不然你們老是被罵，其實我覺得有很多的好事、外交都是做在原住民身上，可是沒有媒體會報導。我再舉一個例子，今年也是一樣，四年一度的太平洋藝術節，這個也是很重要，我們能夠以非正式會員身分參與，容不容易？"],["林部長佳龍：這個很不容易，而且這個影片從頭到尾我都有看。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：很感動。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：而且我們是用中華民國的國旗放在他們的官網，這個是用原住民的身分參與，所以部長，我們看一下參與的這些成員是誰──太平洋島國論壇的成員，重不重要？"],["林部長佳龍：很重要。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是不是突破外交？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：而且他們是美中在拉鋸的太平洋區域的這些國家，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那臺灣能夠出席、能夠出現，是不是也是重要貢獻？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不好意思，我只有在原民臺看到，只是因為這個人他講的話太精彩，很多人是透過影片、臉書轉傳分享，但是一樣，我都覺得能見度好低，所以外交部未來在這方面能不能夠做出什麼樣的協助？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實我有發現，因為在業務上，我們的原民會也辦了很多國際交流，但是怎麼跟外交來連結？我們外交部要跟……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我今天要談的就是這一點。"],["林部長佳龍：不能各自為政，總合外交……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我們很多事做得很好、很有效。"],["林部長佳龍：原住民外交就是最好的，其實不只太平洋國家，進步的這些民主、自由、人權重視的國家都對原住民族很重視，甚至加拿大他們都還有經濟、社會平權這樣的一個條約，我們臺灣怎麼樣透過原住民跟國際交往？我也是利用這個機會提醒外交部同仁，今天來做業務報告之前，我有跟他們講。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要一加一大於二嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：半年前我在這裡的業務報告有提到原住民外交，我不能夠半年後還是在原地踏步，所以我希望我們的同仁好好的去了解總合外交裡面原住民外交的重要性。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我再舉一個馬上就要發生的，2025（明）年很重要的，在日本大阪第三度舉辦的世界博覽會，我上次也有請經濟部國貿的人員到我辦公室，因為我想了解，這麼重要的一個平臺到底有沒有原住民的元素？我跟部長說，還好我有問，沒有欸，那我都不知道了，沒有原住民，我們到世界要給人家看什麼，要跟人家交什麼朋友？是吧！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那外交部要不要幫忙？"],["林部長佳龍：是這樣，我已經在……其實在奧運的時候，為了那個影片，我就跟同仁講，要趕快為大阪的世博做準備，另外，因為我後來去查出來，其實文化部它好像是比較重要在對接，可是我們外交部，我想部部都是外交部，我們一定要跟文化部能夠很好的協調來一起推動。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我要講這件事情就是說，很可惜，原民會沒有那麼大的能量，以這個明年的大阪世博來講，它的主責是在經濟部，有發包出去，但是文化部就會因此覺得沒我的事，可能外交部也會覺得沒我的事，因為錢不是在原民會，原民會也沒有辦法發聲，這是不是很可惜？明明可以好好做的一個外交的展示，就因為部會的本位主義，就這麼可惜，沒有能見度，是吧！"],["林部長佳龍：對，其實在大阪，因為臺灣人去日本觀光旅遊很多，所以這是一個很重要、可以呈現臺灣國力的一個機會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。部長，我就是講這個9月底，你看帛琉建國30週年，賴總統特別請原民會主委率團出訪、擔任特使，原民會也邀請了原住民各鄉鎮長一同去那個地方觀摩、考察、交流、參與他們建國30週年，這時候我也很想問，外交部到底有沒有配合？"],["林部長佳龍：這是我們外交部推薦，請原民會主委做特使。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我覺得很可惜，真的很可惜，力道不夠啦！總而言之，我要表達的就是說，我希望外交部未來在這種參訪的事務上都能夠大大的協助，因為大家都在幫忙做外交，我希望外交部能有更多的力量，至少對帛琉這位惠恕仁總統，2021年他剛上任講了一句我好感動的話，他直接對我們的蔡英文總統說，我們的根在臺灣，帛琉的根在臺灣，你看這樣的情誼，如果我們好好的跟他們交流，用這樣的一個民族血緣的方式交流，豈會被那些金錢外交的國家破壞呢，是吧！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我希望外交部幫一個忙，我希望在過去我們的南島民族論壇也好，或者是很重要的2013年的臺紐經貿協定、2022年的IPETCA，我們臺灣也跟紐、加、澳洲同為創始國，除此以外，我要在這個地方拜託部長一下，我們來辦一個南太平洋的運動會，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：很有意義啊，如果能夠促成的話。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可以嘛，您有心願意促成吧！"],["林部長佳龍：願意。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們跟原民會一起來辦這個活動，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們總是每幾年就要有一個重要的活動嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：是啦，因為臺灣是南島語系的發源地，這個也是公認的，包括他們自己都這麼樣的認定。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！"],["林部長佳龍：所以我們應該善用這樣的一個資產。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個絕對比南太平洋藝術節還要轟動國際。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，您同意哦，那我們就著手來進行好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好啊。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那也在這邊順便謝謝一下，這一次的無任所大使進步了，有2位，我比較在意的是真正的外交人才的培育，真正人才外交，我們原住民有太多太多這樣有天分的年輕人。我還是要再次問，我希望外交部要有具體的措施去培育原住民族的外交人才，這也是總統的政見，我下一次就想要來問問看我們到底有沒有具體的措施，可以嗎？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好，請同仁記住，委員會再問的喔，要列管。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是、是，謝謝部長，您辛苦了，謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。部長請回。","已登記質詢委員除了不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有羅智強委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0573dd57fff0b7bd9f6b87f55f7374071398f8787296810fc8c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:25:33 - 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你會後查證給我我今天跟秘書長講喔我們上個會期三讀通過詐欺犯罪危害防治條例為了要強化對被害人的保護提起民事訴訟暫免繳納訴訟費用嘛但我收到很多投訴啊"},{"start":156.62,"end":183.566,"text":"說地方法院的法官根本不管什麼叫地方法院的法官根本不管我用其中一個案子來當作例子起訴的時候詐欺犯罪的被害人結果收到法院什麼要他補繳裁判費來請教一下副秘書長命他補繳裁判費的裁定可不可以抗告委員報告不能抗告但是先停一下病受將來的那個本案不是啦"},{"start":184.571,"end":191.679,"text":"你講得太快了啦沒有繳裁判費叫你補繳又不能夠抗告接下來會發生什麼事就裁定駁回了嘛法院自行違法接下來的法律效果是把人民踢出法院之外對這個裁定駁回他可以抗告嘛"},{"start":207.602,"end":208.022,"text":"謝謝委員這不是開玩笑的事情喔"},{"start":231.499,"end":236.922,"text":"不要謝謝我啦這是你們該做的事情啦第一線有非常多的被害人欲哭無淚啊那奇怪了問我們立委說你們不是三讀通過了啊怎麼三讀通過了以後"},{"start":248.502,"end":267.68,"text":"還補繳裁判費裁定還不能抗告接下來馬上要面對什麼接下來馬上要面對訴不合法依照民事訴訟法249條第一項第六款的規定裁定駁回我還要自己跟高院抗告有這麼離譜的事情喔把我們上個會議請立法院通過的法律當耳邊風啊這個才是真正在犧牲人民的訴訟權益啊"},{"start":274.53,"end":293.057,"text":"來我們沿著我們上次討論的話上次我請教你我們一一三年宪判制第八號出來了以後其實分兩段第一段殺人是屬於最嚴重的犯罪類型這個是在回應什麼這是在回應ICCP第六條第二項的規定"},{"start":296.243,"end":312.368,"text":"我們的憲法法庭的判決不是只有限於這裡喔不是只有最嚴重的犯罪類型喔殺人罪當然是最嚴重的犯罪類型就不用講嘛但他還進一步的限縮死刑要限於什麼個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重因為我上次質詢完了以後啊"},{"start":316.28,"end":343.674,"text":"有立委上來講說現在法庭只是反映ICCPI第六條第二項我聽完了以後我頓時非常的迷惘他到底有沒有去看那個憲判制的判決啊明明判決就寫兩段第一個殺人是最嚴重的犯罪類型符合ICCPI這沒有問題嘛第二個我上次請教你的是個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重我問你這件事情要怎麼解釋"},{"start":345.186,"end":356.932,"text":"因為憲法法庭的判決沒有跟大家講這件事情到底要怎麼解釋嘛然後他是用歷史的方式用歷史的方式我上次請教你的問題是說那犯罪動機跟目的"},{"start":358.393,"end":365.401,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":375.934,"end":390.429,"text":"副秘書長的事這個到底是要折翼還是變存?你上次給我一個非常模糊的答案三個東西全部綜合起來考慮我說你再回去看一下判決我下次會再問你你看完判決以後今天的答案是什麼?"},{"start":391.707,"end":393.267,"text":"我拿刀我拿刀殺害兩個無辜的婦女"},{"start":422.216,"end":422.376,"text":"委員高見"},{"start":446.734,"end":471.369,"text":"是不是那個不是我高見啊我綜合你的講法就是有一定的抽象跟不確定性嘛從你的回答大家都聽得出來了嘛好來我們繼續啊再往下看上次為而請教你說各級法院都要一致決那如果接下來是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這件事情產生爭議了我還是可以尋求憲法法院的救濟嘛上次你回答答案是對嘛"},{"start":473.499,"end":476.341,"text":"現在我在講的是最高法院最高法院的法官我們五票都同意這個是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重"},{"start":499.728,"end":511.816,"text":"但是被告認為說這不是個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊因為沒有符合上面你所講的那個標準啊他可不可以請求憲法訴訟的救濟他請求個案裁判的憲法審查可不可以打掉但是是也要經得起檢驗嘛"},{"start":523.775,"end":542.781,"text":"當然啊你到底在說什麼啊我們大法官不是說生命很重要嗎所以要個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊要程序保障最嚴密啊全部都是我們大法官講的啊那進入了有關於憲法訴訟個案的救濟的時候憲法法庭要不要一致決跟委員報告齁如果他說維持這個江南還有解釋的空間如果他要維持的話"},{"start":553.26,"end":556.181,"text":"所以這件事情是我們憲法訴訟憲法法庭的判決沒有講的嘛未來還是有充滿的一定的不確定性嘛"},{"start":578.376,"end":597.475,"text":"最高法院他發展那個不是最高法院的發展這憲法法庭的事情怎麼會看最高法院的發展抱歉是口誤抱歉好來來看一下齁如果接下來啊憲法法庭要求下級審死刑都要一致決最高法院的法官五個喔都認為"},{"start":599.663,"end":601.024,"text":"目前我沒有辦法去推斷將來的情形"},{"start":619.963,"end":637.45,"text":"你不用推斷現在的情形啊到11月1號以後只會剩下八名大法官啊希望能夠如期審查對啦但希望能夠如期審查你要趕快跟民進黨黨團講啊到目前為止啊沒有要求排入議審審查的就是我們的執政黨黨團啊"},{"start":641.01,"end":663.332,"text":"十一月一號以後我跟你保證啊你以現在的時間上面來講我跟副秘書長交換一個心得啦我敬重你是一個有風骨的法律人所以我跟你講話也很客氣我在國會殿堂不跟你講政治的事情我只跟你講法律的事情所以我希望你回答的時候就像法律人一樣回答不要學"},{"start":665.171,"end":681.258,"text":"不要搞一些油槍滑掉的東西啦這樣子不好啦八月一號以後剩下存的八個大法官在憲法訴訟裡面有幾個在上一次的憲判制的判決當中申請自刑迴避"},{"start":684.661,"end":690.824,"text":"所以接下來我在憲法訴訟的時候申請個案要救濟的時候他們兩個迴避剩下幾個?剩下六個嗎?那如果按照現在的表決全數有四個大法官認為這不是最嚴重有兩個大法官認為這個是最嚴重"},{"start":712.308,"end":732.842,"text":"結果變成什麼?結果變成的是那本來最高法院的五個大法官所做的死刑宣告維持的死刑宣告就違憲喔是吧?不是啦就最高法院的五個法官所維持的死刑判決是不是就會被宣告違憲了?好我為什麼要秀這個給你看六個大法官"},{"start":742.082,"end":768.761,"text":"做這麼重要的決定四比二的票數四比二的票數做這麼重要的決定直接推翻了所有下集審法院包括最高法院的一致決在制度上面是不是合一在制度上面是不是合一這個問題我不會逼你回答作為一個法律人我們大家共同思考在制度上面這個是不是合一"},{"start":769.793,"end":782.533,"text":"我接下來要請教你的是因為今天討論這麼嚴肅的問題我跟副秘書長報告我對於司法院所提出來的書面報告我看了覺得很難過因為太單薄了啦"},{"start":783.479,"end":808.414,"text":"因為太單薄了啦我為什麼說太單薄了這麼嚴肅的制度課題我很少看到司法院在討論這麼嚴肅的制度課題的時候完全沒有任何比較法的原因來我請教一下副秘書長美國聯邦最高法院有幾位大法官聯邦最高法院要做判決的時候有沒有最低法定人數的要求"},{"start":810.646,"end":822.858,"text":"他們是過半數決吧 半數決不是啦 我跟你講齁 我們觀念要搞清楚我們現在在講的出席人數是第一個層次的quorum不是第二個層次的表決權數我們現在在講的是quorum"},{"start":826.263,"end":849.424,"text":"出席人數九位最高法院聯邦最高法院的大法官需要多少人出席才可以進行裁判跟委員報告我現在手上沒有明確資料來我秀給你看我我一定知道你沒有準備好明確資料所以我馬上秀給你看美國聯邦最高法院九位大法官最少要多少人他的科人是多少六個人"},{"start":851.087,"end":856.61,"text":"美國可能距離我們太遙遠了我問一點近的日本日本最高裁判所的幾位大法官15位嘛15位大法庭因為日本的最高裁判所的小法庭大法庭嘛是不是違憲要大法庭來做決定嘛大法庭要做決定最少要有多少人出席要寫的是要9人是9個人嘛好來"},{"start":880.351,"end":899.447,"text":"聯邦最高法院跟最高裁判所他們基本上沒有獨立設憲法法院跟我們國家的制度不太一樣因為他們的最高法院本來就有釋憲的權利最高裁判所跟聯邦最高法院都一樣那我們來看一下在普通法院系統以外有另外在創設憲法法院系統的"},{"start":900.228,"end":915.935,"text":"南非憲法法院南非憲法法院非常有名幾年前南非憲法法院的大法官我們司法院都有邀請他來解釋南非憲法法院實際上面的運作南非憲法法院有多少大法官11位我寫的你後面都可以去檢證如果我有寫錯再麻煩副秘書長給我指教11位憲法法院的大法官"},{"start":930.202,"end":941.497,"text":"最少要有幾個人參與才可以做判決?是八位嘛好來我們再來看一下韓國憲法法院韓國憲法法院有幾位大法官?最少要有幾個人出席?"},{"start":951.645,"end":962.911,"text":"現在我都還沒有在講喔出席以後到底要三分之二多數決還是要二分之一的簡單多數決我都還沒有講到這個層次喔第一個層次不管是美國還是日本"},{"start":970.387,"end":994.577,"text":"普通法院有事件權的或者是南非憲法法院或者是韓國憲法法院在普通法院以外另外設憲法法院的不管是哪一個體系的都有最低人數的要求我請教一下副秘書長這一些國家的立法者在立這些法律的時候竟然有最低人數的要求啊"},{"start":996.087,"end":1017.273,"text":"他們是不是要毀憲亂政啊?是不是要癱壞憲法法院啊?他們的立法意旨會是這樣嗎?來請教副秘書長各位委員報告那當然各個國家有各個國家的這個背景應該不是這些國家應該不是有這種情形嘛這個國家不是這種情形嘛所以我們法律員回到理性來思考問題啊"},{"start":1018.635,"end":1046.133,"text":"一個執掌市縣最高法院的機關需不需要有最低人數的要求要不要有call人這是一個制度性的問題我再強調一次這是一個制度性的問題我們當初在處理憲法訴訟法的時候根本沒有處理這個問題嘛我為什麼知道沒有處理這個問題那個時候相關的文獻我全部看完了"},{"start":1046.894,"end":1069.473,"text":"沒有人在處理這個問題啊當初司改國是會議的時候啊寫的是全體大法官寫的是全體大法官那個時候為什麼會要求三分之二要參與討論大家腦袋裡面在想的是什麼是15個裡面的三分之二但是到現在的法條變成這個樣子的時候在實際運作上就會有問題但我們怎麼樣橫平"},{"start":1075.7,"end":1094.874,"text":"所謂橫評是說讓憲法訴訟的制度可以好好的運作第二個在制度上面在制度上面是不是需要有最低人數的要求這些國家的立法者我相信就像副秘書長剛剛所講的他絕對不是為了毀憲亂政他也絕對不是為了要癱瘓憲法訴訟他們才會去做這樣子的規定嘛"},{"start":1103.484,"end":1124.47,"text":"所以我建議副秘書長代表司法院到國會來備詢回答相關的問題的時候要有司法院的樣子要有司法院的高度不要隨著一些莫名其妙的發言在那邊隨之起舞這樣讓大家看了會很失望跟副秘書長共勉好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時25分）主席，不好意思，我先會議詢問一下，我是真的會議詢問，跟其他會議詢問夾雜實質內容性質的會議詢問完全不一樣，我真的要問的事情是……"],["沈委員伯洋：沒有會議詢問。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是說沒有會議詢問嗎？"],["主席：我們已經停止會議詢問了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。請副秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘書長，我看你今天的頭銜是副秘書長，上次來是代理秘書長，怎麼上次來是代理秘書長，這次變副秘書長？我們立法院是什麼，你們司法院的職稱是換來換去喔？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為後來也有給委員報告，因為我們秘書長暫時缺位，之前事實上他的事務委由我來代處理，之前可能是參考其他的院，就這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：我切入啦，我就直接講，我上次問你，司法院處務規程有代理秘書長的規定嗎？有還是沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，沒有，後來我們瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有嘛！知錯能改……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院要守法，這很重要，明明就沒有代理制度，司法院耶，司法院自己都不守法，沒有法源基礎搞代理秘書長，今天知道自己錯了，改回副秘書長喔！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，因為實際上就是代理處理，我們也沒有用司法院秘書長的職權，也沒有，所以實際上就只有……"],["黃委員國昌：你就看嘛，你上次送來的不就是代理秘書長，不要再強辯了嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：錯了就錯了嘛，錯了認錯就好了啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們問一下，詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條很重要，為什麼很重要？我們要加強對被害人的保護，所以提起民事訴訟的時候，暫免繳納訴訟費用嘛，這一個規定，司法院有沒有通報各級地方法院的所有民事法院注意？有通報還是沒通報？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，發函應該是有發函，但是這個要查證一下，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你會後查證給我。我今天跟副秘書長講，我們上個會期三讀通過詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，為了要強化對被害人的保護，提起民事訴訟暫免繳納訴訟費用，但我收到很多投訴，說地方法院的法官根本不管，什麼叫地方法院的法官根本不管，我用其中一個案子來當作例子，起訴的時候，詐欺犯罪的被害人收到法院要他補繳裁判費。請教一下副秘書長，令他補繳裁判費的裁定可不可以抗告？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，不能抗告，但是並受將來的本案判決……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，你講得太快了啦，沒有繳裁判費，叫你補繳又不能夠抗告，接下來會發生什麼事？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有繳，會駁回。"],["黃委員國昌：就裁定駁回了嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["黃委員國昌：法院自己違法，接下來的法律效果是把人民踢出法院之外，對於這個裁定駁回他可以抗告嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，當然上級審會去糾正，只是這個程序我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，這樣浪費勞力時間費用，算是對被害人的保護嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員提醒，我們回去一定切實的去……"],["黃委員國昌：拜託司法院，通告全國地方法院民事庭的法官注意。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，這是我們該做的。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是開玩笑的事情！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：不要謝謝我啦，這是你們該做的事情啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對啦，謝謝委員提點，我們總是要注意。"],["黃委員國昌：第一線有非常多的被害人欲哭無淚，奇怪了，問我們立委說不是三讀通過了，怎麼三讀通過了以後還補繳裁判費，裁定還不能抗告，接下來馬上面對什麼？接下來馬上面對訴不合法，依照民事訴訟法第二百四十九條第一項第六款的規定裁定駁回，我還要自己跟高院抗告，有這麼離譜的事情喔！把上個會期立法院通過的法律當耳邊風啊！這個才是真正在犧牲人民的訴訟權益啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝，謝謝委員，我們回去會切實……"],["黃委員國昌：然後我們沿著我們上次討論的話，上次我請教你，我們113年憲判字第8號出來了以後，其實分兩段啦，第一段，殺人是屬於最嚴重的犯罪類型，這個是在回應什麼？這是在回應ICCPR第六條第二項的規定嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["黃委員國昌：但我們憲法法庭的判決不是只有限於這裡，不是只有最嚴重的犯罪類型喔，殺人罪當然是最嚴重的犯罪類型就不用講嘛，但他還進一步的限縮，死刑要限於個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重，因為我上次質詢完了以後，有立委上來講說，現在法庭只是反映ICCPR第六條第二項，我聽完了以後頓時非常的迷惘，他到底有沒有去看那個憲判字的判決啊，明明判決就寫兩段，第一個，殺人是最嚴重的犯罪類型，符合ICCPR，這沒有問題嘛。第二個，我上次請教你的是，個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重，我問你這件事情要怎麼解釋，因為憲法法庭的判決沒有跟大家講這件事情到底要怎麼解釋嘛，然後他是用例示的方式，我上次請教你的問題是說，犯罪動機跟目的是否要預謀殺人、要恣意無差別殺人？犯罪手段是否要足以造成多人死亡或者是明顯不人道？犯罪結果是不是要殺害多個人，是不是殘忍殺害自我保護能力明顯不足的人？我上次請教副秘書長的是，這個到底是要擇一還是並存？你上次給我一個非常模糊的答案說三個東西全部綜合起來考慮，我說你再回去看一下判決，我下次會再問你，請問你看完判決了以後，今天的答案是什麼？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我是認為，以我當法官的這些經驗，這一些的因素都是要去綜合考量，你說這個點數是一，要加在一起，所以我上一次的回應是說，以法官的這個習慣大概不是這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：好，譬如我舉一個最具體的例子，我拿刀殺害兩個無辜的婦女，預謀殺人，馬上是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重？按照你例示的，馬上要進來涵攝了嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，它是例示，例示的東西，在法案審判的過程中，還會斟酌其他情形，不會說例示就是唯一的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：對！所以有一定的抽象跟不確定性嘛！我這樣說應該沒有錯吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員高見。"],["黃委員國昌：那個不是我高見啦！我綜合你的講法，就是有一定的抽象跟不確定性，從你的回答大家都聽得出來。","我們繼續再往下看，上次我也有請教你，各級法院都要一致決，如果接下來是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這件事情產生爭議了，我還是可以尋求憲法法院的救濟，上次你回答的答案是對嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他可以向檢察總長提出聲請，檢察總長不一定接受，要看檢察總長……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！這是兩個部分，檢察總長是非常上訴，你怎麼會把非常上訴跟請求憲法法院就個案的司法裁判是不是有違憲混淆了！現在我在講的是最高法院的法官，我們五票都同意，這個是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重，但是被告認為，這不是個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊！因為沒有符合上面你所講的那個標準，則他可不可以請求憲法訴訟的救濟？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他可以請求個案裁判的憲法審查，但是也要經得起檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：當然啊！你到底在說什麼啊？大法官不是說生命很重要嗎？所以要個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊！要程序保障最嚴密啊！全部都是我們大法官講的啊！在進入了有關於憲法訴訟個案救濟的時候，憲法法庭要不要一致決？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，將來這部分還有解釋的空間，如果他要維持的話，憲法法庭認為要維持這一個死刑，而他對個案憲法裁判不接受的話，目前憲判字是沒有講，可能我也沒有辦法現在說到底將來……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這件事情是我們憲法訴訟、憲法法庭的判決沒有講的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前沒有講。"],["黃委員國昌：未來還是有充滿了一定的不確定性。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：要看最高法院它的發展……"],["黃委員國昌：不是最高法院的發展，這是憲法法庭的事情，怎麼會看最高法院的發展！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：抱歉，是口誤！"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看一下，如果接下來憲法法庭要求下級審死刑都要一致決，最高法院的法官5個都認為，這是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重，他聲請憲法訴訟的個案救濟，如果憲法法庭不要求一致決的話，我們來看看接下來會發生什麼事情，請問，我們到11月1號以後剩幾個大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前我沒有辦法去推斷將來的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：你不用推斷現在的情形，到11月1號以後，只會剩下8名大法官。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：希望能夠如期審查。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！希望能夠如期審查，所以你要趕快跟民進黨黨團講啊！到目前為止，沒有要求排入議程審查的就是我們的執政黨黨團，11月1號以後，我跟你保證，以現在的時間上面來講，我跟副秘書長交換一個心得，我敬重你是一個有風骨的法律人，所以我跟你講話也很客氣，我在國會殿堂不跟你講政治的事情，我只跟你講法律的事情，所以我希望你回答的時候，要像法律人一樣的回答，不要學一些或是不要搞一些油腔滑調的東西，這樣子不好！11月1號以後，剩下的8個大法官中，在憲法訴訟裡面有幾個在上一次憲判字的判決當中聲請自行迴避？兩個啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：尤伯祥跟蔡彩貞。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以接下來我在憲法訴訟的時候聲請個案要救濟的時候，他們兩個迴避後剩下6個，如果按照現在的表決權數，有4個大法官認為這不是最嚴重，有2個大法官認為這是最嚴重，結果變成什麼？結果變成的是本來最高法院5個大法官所做的死刑宣告，維持的死刑宣告就違憲，是嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：最高法院沒有大法官。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！就最高法院那5個法官所維持的死刑判決，是不是就會被宣告違憲了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個將來憲法法庭去判，我不能去置喙。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我為什麼要秀這個給你看，6個大法官做這麼重要的決定，用4比2的票數做這麼重要的決定，直接推翻了所有下級審法院，包括最高法院的一致決。這在制度上是不是合宜？這問題我不會逼你回答，但作為一個法律人，我們大家共同思考在制度上這是不是合宜？","我接下來要請教你的是，因為今天討論這麼嚴肅的問題，所以我要跟副秘書長報告，對於司法院所提出來的書面報告，我看了覺得很難過，因為太單薄了！因為太單薄了！我為什麼說太單薄了？這麼嚴肅的制度課題，我很少看到司法院在討論這麼嚴肅的制度課題時，完全沒有任何比較法的援引。我請教一下副秘書長，美國聯邦最高法院有幾位大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，九位大法官。"],["黃委員國昌：聯邦最高法院要做判決時，有沒有最低法定人數的要求？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他們是過半數決吧？"],["黃委員國昌：不是。我跟你講，觀念要搞清楚，我們現在在講的出席人數是第一個層次的quorum，不是第二個層次的表決權數，我們現在在講的是quorum，出席人數。九位聯邦最高法院的大法官需要多少人出席才可以進行裁判？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我現在手上沒有明確資料……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我秀給你看，我知道你一定沒有準備好明確資料，所以我馬上秀給你看。美國聯邦最高法院九位大法官，最少要有多少人，quorum是多少？六個人。美國可能距離我們太遙遠了，所以我問近一點的日本。日本最高裁判所有幾位大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：十五位。"],["黃委員國昌：十五位。因為日本的最高裁判所有小法庭、大法庭，所以是不是違憲要由大法庭來做決定。大法庭要做決定時，最少要有多少人出席？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：照委員這邊資料寫的，要九人。"],["黃委員國昌：九個人嘛。聯邦最高法院跟最高裁判所基本上沒有獨立設憲法法院，跟我們國家的制度不太一樣，因為他們的最高法院本來就有釋憲權力，最高裁判所跟聯邦最高法院都一樣。我們來看一下，在普通法院系統以外，另外再創設憲法法院系統的是南非憲法法院。南非憲法法院非常有名，司法院幾年前還邀請南非憲法法院的大法官來解釋南非憲法法院實際上的運作。南非憲法法院有多少大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員寫的是十一位。"],["黃委員國昌：我寫的你後面都可以去檢證，如果我有寫錯，再麻煩副秘書長給我指教。十一位憲法法院的大法官，最少要有幾個人參與才可以做判決？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員寫的是八位。"],["黃委員國昌：八位？好，我們再來看一下韓國憲法法院。韓國憲法法院有幾位大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：九位。"],["黃委員國昌：最少要有幾個人出席？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：審判部要七人以上。"],["黃委員國昌：要七人以上出席！我都還沒講到出席以後，到底要三分之二多數決，還是要二分之一的簡單多數決？我都還沒有講到這個層次。這只是quorum，第一個層次。在第一個層次裡，不管美國還是日本，普通法院有釋憲權的，或南非憲法法院，或韓國憲法法院，在普通法院外另設憲法法院的，不管是哪一個體系，都有最低人數要求！我請教副秘書長，這些國家的立法者在立這些法律時，竟然有最低人數的要求，他們是不是要毀憲亂政？是不是要癱瘓憲法法院？他們的立法意旨會是這樣嗎？請教副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，各個國家當然有各個國家的背景，這些國家應該不是這種情形。"],["黃委員國昌：這些國家不是這種情形，所以法律人回到理性來思考問題。一個職掌釋憲的最高法院機關，需不需要有最低人數的要求？要不要有quorum？這是一個制度性問題。我再強調一次，這是一個制度性的問題！我們當初在處理憲法訴訟法時，根本沒有處理這個問題！我為什麼知道沒有處理這個問題？那個時候相關的文獻我全部看完了，沒有人在處理這個問題啊！當初司改國是會議的時候，寫的是全體大法官，那個時候為什麼會要求三分之二要參與討論，大家腦袋裡面在想的是什麼？是15個裡面的三分之二，但是到現在的法條變成這個樣子的時候，在實際運作上就會有問題。但我們怎麼樣衡平，所謂衡平是說讓憲法訴訟的制度可以好好的運作；第二個，在制度上面是不是需要有最低人數的要求？這些國家的立法者，我相信就像副秘書長剛剛所講的，絕對不是為了毀憲亂政，也絕對不是為了要癱瘓憲法訴訟，他們才會去做這樣子的規定，所以我建議啦！副秘書長代表司法院到國會來備詢，回答相關問題的時候，要有司法院的樣子、要有司法院的高度，不要隨著一些莫名其妙的發言，在那邊隨之起舞，這樣讓大家看了會很失望，跟副秘書長共勉，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在休息，下午1點半開會。","休息（12時44分）","繼續開會（13時33分）"],["主席：我們現在開始開會。","謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員。","我們接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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請我們的部長請您部長部長我們的駐外大使其實有很多其實都已經超過6年"},{"start":18.041,"end":19.042,"text":"認識的朋友"},{"start":37.125,"end":37.785,"text":"我們國內的音樂家在國外演出的非常多"},{"start":68.271,"end":91.648,"text":"部長,我們其實很多過去的外交官尤其我們的駐外大使他不一定是外交本身出身但是呢起碼他也都在我們自己的政府內擔任過重要的職務不管是之前的謝長廷或者是林議員、童振元或莊碩翰等等"},{"start":92.449,"end":117.019,"text":"可是啊﹖這位劉永璇﹖劉璇勇﹖因為事實上真的非常非常的陌生那他是音樂家﹖從來沒有過外交經驗﹖也沒有過政府單位的一個歷練只因為是部長的好朋友﹖所以今天我們的外交難道是龍有有外交嗎?"},{"start":117.659,"end":118.32,"text":"其實這個人是在你們外交系統引起了非常大的震撼"},{"start":145.723,"end":145.763,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":161.856,"end":184.037,"text":"結果呢卻是由龍有有然後一個完全沒有外交經驗那我覺得我們現場這麼多的這個外交系統的有很豐富外交經歷請問一下他們情何以堪啊所以我就說這個是不會啊我們這個職業外交官我們也非常多都在重要的管處啊當任大使跟代表那邊都不能走啊"},{"start":184.737,"end":202.974,"text":"想要吊都不能吊啊,你可以回去去查一下,因為我在昨天有寫了我跟委員報告齁,因為奧地利齁,這個是可以說歐洲啊,這個音樂的首都啦我們要跟人家交流齁,多一個媒介,阿他的條件也不是說只是一個音樂家嘛,還有做過團長,這行政經驗很豐富對不對,有很多在那邊苦撐待變,苦撐待吊的,你也能不能照顧一下"},{"start":210.2,"end":218.705,"text":"有要想調來跟我講,你們想要在哪裡有目標我一定幫你們看圓夢不能夠講這不矛盾的事也變成都沒有外交經驗,只要你認識就好我最近上任,如果你去看看真的我們公務員很優秀的職業外交官幫我們很多的外交官要說一下話他們敢怒不敢言請問一下"},{"start":238.496,"end":240.698,"text":"APEC領袖代表已經內定是原來的林信義副院長了嗎?因為這個現在還在進行中"},{"start":254.708,"end":265.998,"text":"依照過去的例子會適當的時候來對外正式的公佈開記者會當然這個也是府方會正式公佈因為他是總統的代表"},{"start":270.942,"end":293.379,"text":"那因為時間也很緊迫了那外界也非常關心那麼因為本來是希望陳建仁副總統那被秘魯拒絕那我們當然還是希望就過去都是張忠謀先生但他已經高齡了嘛所以呢現在是不是由林信義前副院長來代表大概這個禮拜會公佈嗎"},{"start":294.608,"end":295.789,"text":"陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統"},{"start":324.108,"end":348.182,"text":"其實在他首度就職我講的是首度就職其實也都蠻快的那個像陳隨便總統跟馬英九總統是在8月份他們就出訪然後呢蔡英文總統是6月份他就出訪但是現在都一直等不到我們的賴總統出訪啊也過了大概半年了大半年所以我們賴總統什麼時候可以出訪呢"},{"start":349.744,"end":351.786,"text":"等確定之後就會對外說明今年之內可不可能成行?"},{"start":359.844,"end":386.135,"text":"做幕僚的這個單位我們都要規劃各種的方案來為元首的外交包括總統的出訪我想這個適當的時機跟這個訪問的對象應該由總統府方面來說明有沒有機會因為按照過去的經驗說實在台灣的這個外交環境事實上都一直很艱困的都一直很艱困你說中共打壓吧中共打壓是無所不在"},{"start":387.455,"end":387.615,"text":"信心喔?"},{"start":410.236,"end":410.416,"text":"美國總統大選11月5日"},{"start":428.985,"end":440.342,"text":"那現在呢這兩位候選人呢非常膠著那這兩位候選人不管是哪一位當選其實對台灣事實上都會有一定的衝擊這個衝擊不僅僅只是一個外交或國際情勢的衝擊"},{"start":444.527,"end":471.443,"text":"還有經貿上面的衝擊那我想請問外交部針對美國總統大選的結果我們有沒有做出一些因應的政策或者已經提出報告給總統也好或者給我們這個國安系統讓他們能夠掌握不管這兩位哪一位擔任總統對台灣的衝擊是什麼我們的因應措施是什麼準備好了嗎"},{"start":472.56,"end":486.765,"text":"有,我們針對不同的選舉結果都做好隱隱的而且事先有做一些當然也必須要有一些準備美國總統大選出爐之後對台灣影響最大衝擊最大的是哪一方面"},{"start":489.507,"end":515.51,"text":"對台灣的衝擊我想他們的外交政策特別是他們的印太戰略當然有分成安全的層面涉及到地緣政治也有一些屬於經濟方面的當然長期來講我們都是理念相近的民主國家這個我們很有信心部長另外請教一下在你們的方案中有沒有包括一個"},{"start":516.431,"end":544.308,"text":"在11月5號或者短期內美國總統大選沒有結果有沒有這個項目我想基於這個對未來趨勢跟可能的這個情境的這個研判我們是對各不同的選舉結果都有所準備跟因應最後就提醒我們部長跟外交部因為根據過去的經驗因為尤其他們這一次非常咬得很緊"},{"start":545.709,"end":563.102,"text":"所以有可能等到7月5號選完之後可能輸的那一方會要求驗票搞不好短時間內還沒有辦法正式出爐所以呢請外交為什麼特別來講其實我覺得對我們的經貿的部分其實影響是極大的"},{"start":563.422,"end":564.003,"text":"好 我們再加強 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時19分）謝謝主席。請我們的部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我們的駐外大使，其實有很多都已經超過6年，最近我們的奧地利大使換人，原來的張小月換人了，現在新任的代表劉玄詠，我想可能現場很多人不一定認識他喔！請問一下，他是不是部長的好朋友？"],["林部長佳龍：認識的朋友。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，他有任何外交的經歷或者是在公職、在政府內部任職的經歷嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他在政府有任職，因為他是國臺交指揮跟團長，他也很常到國外去演出，所以在各種的涉外事務上，算是有一定的經驗。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們國內的音樂家在國外演出的非常多，部長，其實過去很多的外交官，尤其我們的駐外大使，他不一定是外交本身出身，但是起碼他也都在我們自己的政府內擔任過重要的職務，不管是之前的謝長廷、李應元、童振源或莊碩漢等等，可是這位劉詠玄……"],["林部長佳龍：劉玄詠。"],["王委員鴻薇：抱歉，我把它念反了，因為事實上真的是非常、非常的陌生，他是音樂家，從來沒有過外交經驗，也沒有過政府單位的一個歷練，只因為是部長的好朋友，所以今天我們的外交難道是龍友友外交嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是啦！這是文化外交，他是在奧地利得到音樂博士的學位，然後也很多國際演出跟合作的經驗，我們要推動歐洲的文化外交，有一個來自於藝術界的音樂專長人士來，我覺得大使事實上是政務官，他是要通才啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我為什麼會問這個，我要告訴你，其實這個人事在你們外交系統引起了非常大的震撼，我們還是有很多優秀的外交官，而且我們有很多外交官現在都超過6年，一直想要外調或者是輪值，通通都沒有辦法，好不容易奧地利空出了一個新的代表，結果卻是由龍友友，然後一個完全沒有外交經驗……"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！有經驗啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得我們現場這麼多的外交系統的，有很豐富外交經歷的，請問一下他們情何以堪啦！所以我就說這個是……"],["林部長佳龍：不會啊！我們的職業外交官，也有非常多都在重要的館處擔任大使跟代表。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊！在那邊都不能走啊！想要調都不能調啊！你可以回去查一下，因為我的發言時間有限。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，因為奧地利可以說是歐洲的音樂首都，我們要跟人家交流，能夠多一個媒介……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們國家優秀的音樂家也這麼多！"],["林部長佳龍：而他的條件也不只是一個音樂家嘛！他也做過團長，行政經驗很豐富。"],["王委員鴻薇：奧地利是好的單位，對不對？有很多在那邊苦撐待調的，你能不能也照顧一下？"],["林部長佳龍：有同仁想調的來跟我講，你們想要在哪裡、有目標，我一定幫你們看圓夢啦！這不矛盾的事啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你自己是沒有外交經驗，不能把駐外代表也都變成沒有外交經驗，只要你認識就好，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！我最近上任後，你可以去看看，真的，我們公務員是很優秀的職業外交官。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我們在這邊幫我們很多的外交官要說一下話啦！他們敢怒不敢言。"],["林部長佳龍：有啦！在座這裡面就有好幾個會外派的……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，APEC領袖代表，請問一下，已經內定是原來的林信義副院長了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這個現在還在進行中，依照過去的例子，適當的時候會對外正式的公布、開記者會。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然這個也是府方會正式公布的。"],["林部長佳龍：對，他是總統的領袖代表。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為他是總統的代表。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為時間也很緊迫了，外界也非常關心，因為本來是希望陳建仁副總統，被秘魯拒絕了我們當然還是希望，就是過去都是張忠謀先生，但他已經高齡了，所以現在是不是由林信義前副院長來代表，大概這個禮拜會公布嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這由總統府那邊來發布。"],["王委員鴻薇：有可能公布？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我當過總統秘書長，所以會正式召開一個記者會來說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然要很慎重。另外請教部長，這也是跟我們總統有關係，因為其實我們過去歷任的總統，譬如說，包含陳水扁總統、馬英九總統，還有蔡英文總統，其實在他們的首度就職，我講的是首度就職，其實也都滿快的，像陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統在8月份他們就出訪了，然後蔡英文總統是6月份就出訪，但是現在都一直等不到我們的賴總統出訪，至今也過了大半年了，所以我們賴總統什麼時候可以出訪呢？以部長所掌握跟籌劃的。"],["林部長佳龍：等確定之後，就會對外說明，因為這個由總統府方面的……"],["王委員鴻薇：今年之內可不可能成行？"],["林部長佳龍：作為幕僚的單位，我們都要規劃各種的方案……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，要不要力拼今年呢？"],["林部長佳龍：因為元首的外交，包括總統的出訪，我想適當的時機跟訪問的對象，應該由總統府方面來說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，今年底有沒有機會？因為按照過去的經驗，說實在臺灣的外交環境事實上都一直很艱困的，都一直很艱困，你說中共打壓吧，中共打壓是無所不在，陳水扁時代也打壓、馬英九時代打壓、蔡英文時代也打壓，當然賴總統時代他也打壓，可是我剛剛講了嘛，前面幾位總統事實上都在幾個月之內、三個月之內都有出訪的紀錄，所以我們賴總統可不可以拼今年底？部長有沒有這樣的信心？"],["林部長佳龍：信心喔？"],["王委員鴻薇：不敢講？不敢說？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們外交部就是做好各種的評估跟規劃的幕僚作業，正式要決定或是對外宣布，會由總統府方面來說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：不敢說嗎？再占用一點點時間，因為11月5號美國總統大選馬上就要到了，現在這兩位候選人的情況非常膠著，這兩位候選人不管是哪一位當選，其實對臺灣事實上都會有一定的衝擊，這個衝擊不僅僅只是一個外交或國際情勢的衝擊，還有經貿上面的衝擊。我想請問外交部，針對美國總統大選的結果，我們有沒有做出一些因應的政策或者已經提出報告給總統也好，或者給國安系統讓他們能夠掌握，不管這兩位哪一位擔任總統，對臺灣的衝擊是什麼？我們的因應措施是什麼？準備好了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們針對不同的選舉結果都做好因應的……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，最簡單一句話……"],["林部長佳龍：而且事先有做一些，當然也必須要有一些準備。"],["王委員鴻薇：美國總統大選出爐之後，對臺灣影響最大、衝擊最大的是哪一方面？"],["林部長佳龍：對臺灣的衝擊，我想他們的外交政策，特別是他們的印太戰略，當然有分成安全的層面，涉及到地緣政治，也有一些屬於經濟方面的，當然長期來講，我們都是理念相近的民主國家，這個我們很有信心，臺美關係會是……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，請教一下，在你們的方案中有沒有包括在11月5號或者短期內美國總統大選沒有結果？有沒有這個項目？"],["林部長佳龍：我想基於對未來趨勢跟可能情境的研判，我們對各不同的選舉結果都有所準備跟因應。"],["王委員鴻薇：最後就提醒我們部長跟外交部，因為根據過去的經驗，因為尤其他們這次咬得很緊，所以等到11月5號選完之後，有可能輸的那一方會要求驗票，搞不好短時間內還沒有辦法正式出爐，所以我為什麼特別要講，其實我覺得對我們的經貿部分影響是極大的，不管在半導體部分、不管在關稅部分，當然，這個應該是屬於經濟部的範疇，但是我覺得外交部應該要做一個至少也要跨部會的統籌，不要等到這個……因為我覺得我們並不是像其他人在那邊看到底是誰最後當選，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：一定要做出一個萬全的因應，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們再加強，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員，部長請回。","接下來，我們請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155831","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155831","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f01cc82353b863a702f6b87f55f7374071398f8787296810fc328f139af069e70d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"12:15:54 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這個剛剛我們還是要回歸就是看他們今天修這個法他們總是我很仔細的因為我本來搞不懂我想說到底他們賣這個狗肉到底是掛什麼樣的羊頭所以我就趕快仔細看他們的立法理由"},{"start":118.041,"end":127.449,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":137.628,"end":164.217,"text":"所以他們本來掛著羊頭其實現在把狗頭就掛上去了直接說因為我們不會通過你們的同意權所以我們現在要賣這個狗肉就是要癱瘓你的憲法法庭的運作他們在立法裡面講說啊這個我們大法官設15人立法目的就是什麼什麼什麼我再請問副秘書長我們大法官會議人數在我們憲法裡面一開始就是15人嗎"},{"start":166.663,"end":193.117,"text":"對是15人嘛對不對那個最早的大法官會議解釋的時候曾經有過17但是我跟你講最早的我們的中華民國憲法的本文中華民國憲法第七章司法裡面的這個第79條司法院設大法官若干人沒有規定多少人"},{"start":195.069,"end":223.244,"text":"我們的憲法本文這個國民黨每天抱著我們中華民國憲法本文才說我們的國土是秋海塘業的這個憲法本文並沒有規定大法官會議人數是15人阿他規定是若干人所以那時候設立這個憲法他就是要讓少數人來決定來做解釋嗎三四個就可以解釋嗎不是若干人但是後來我們修憲經過幾次修憲大法官會的這個制度一直改變所以那時候"},{"start":224.622,"end":228.322,"text":"我這邊我所整理的是一直到第四次修憲"},{"start":230.015,"end":254.186,"text":"那時候有因為同意權原本是監察院同意後來修改成國民大會同意這些其他都沒有變還是若干人一直到第四次修憲他才修憲說把若干人改成15人這個是在民國86年1997年的第四次修憲才確定了大法官會議15人這個所謂現在我們在講的法定總額對不對"},{"start":256.374,"end":284.765,"text":"那時候修這15人的目的是什麼其實是因為大法官的任期制同時建立因為以前大法官沒有任期的啊以前大法官提名以後他就一直做做做到死終生值啊那時候終生值還沒有改但是要改任期所以那時候改為了任期制所以他必須固定的名額那時候才有所謂法定總的15人對不對然後接下來到了第六次修憲也就是民國89年的第六次修憲才把終生值拿掉"},{"start":285.936,"end":313.479,"text":"所以這個大法官這個會議這個制度是有是有變化還有變動的並不是並不是國民黨所講說一開始啊就是我們法定總的15人他的目的就是什麼什麼什麼這跟當初的立法目的都不一樣今天我們如果修了這個憲法訴訟法的第四條齁其實我們還是在這裡好好的整理剛剛吵架歸吵架我們還是要好好的再整理現在目前如果第四條做了修改牽涉到整個憲法訴訟法裡面有多少條文裡面有現有總額"},{"start":317.386,"end":340.431,"text":"阿涵剛才有講到的這個26條、30條、32條、43條這些關於平決受理啦然後暫時處分這些的規定我整個給這個本委員會聽今天如果第四條修改雖然只修改第四條一條但是他會牽涉到什麼憲法訴訟法裡面第12條有關迴避的規定"},{"start":342.714,"end":348.16,"text":"第26條有關顏值辯論應該出席的人的總額有關第30條對於判決參與評議的人數第32條案件受理的人數這個第43條暫時處分裁定的人數第48條雖然有現有總額但他是規定立法院的"},{"start":361.601,"end":372.06,"text":"第七十五條彈劾成立的人數．第八十條宣告政黨解散的人數．第八十七條統一解釋法律命令的參與評議的人數．"},{"start":377.471,"end":394.372,"text":"所以今天這條如果修改下去牽涉到這麼多法條的修訂了那這麼多法條修訂之後我個人認為說在我們堅持修第四條的最後造成的最大矛盾的結果就是第12條了"},{"start":396.033,"end":407.417,"text":"這是我們在憲法訴訟條裡面的第12條我們現在修把它修改說本法所稱之法定總額本法所稱之現有總額就是法定總額那第12條怎麼解釋來副院長解釋給他第12條怎麼解釋第12條的現有總額就是法定總額他為什麼又排除掉了呢那顯然第12條裡面他所說的現有總額就不是法定總額啦"},{"start":423.059,"end":424.98,"text":"所以這個就是倉促立法只為了只為了要他們所剛剛一再講的只為了要癱瘓憲法法庭"},{"start":445.885,"end":451.029,"text":"就做這樣子的修法他下去牽涉到我剛剛所講的這麼多的法條而我們剛剛一再講我們憲法法院的判決不是為了政治政治很少由機關所提出來的這個憲法判決佔多少"},{"start":467.352,"end":490.782,"text":"那不倒百分之二。不倒百分之二。大部位都是人民所提出來的。所以我們憲法法院的判決跟過去的大法官會議解釋我一再強調他是是人民司法救濟的最後手段。他是攸關人民權益的這個救濟的最後手段。而這個人民權益救濟的最後手段我們因為一個案子兩個案子"},{"start":491.823,"end":498.974,"text":"的他所具有的政治性然後我們就說啊那我們不就把整個整個到這個這個憲法法庭把他癱瘓掉但大部分是人民的權益就是直接這樣子就剝奪了人民最終救濟的權利"},{"start":507.657,"end":528.39,"text":"這就好像你對一個判決你對一個個案的司法判決不滿你就把整個司法制度把法院判決把它凍結起來我們把中華民國三級法院我說因為你看你們法官做恐龍法官做這種判決所以我今天立法院我把你整個整個這個三級法院的權的職能整個把你攤換掉這樣說對嗎"},{"start":531.462,"end":556.038,"text":"我們今天因為他們今天一整個早上國民黨委員在這裡所講的這些這幾個解釋的個案然後就要癱瘓整個憲法法庭的運作這樣子對嗎所以我希望說今天但是我看國民黨今天擺出來的陣仗顯然等一下完了大概他們又要用表決又要用用用多數人數多數要停止討論直接表決"},{"start":559.022,"end":566.996,"text":"我個人認為是真的應該國民黨應該好好考慮選萊勒馬我們先審大法官會與人事同意權之後我們再來審審查憲法訴訟法以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（12時16分）林委員，林思銘委員，我一句話啦，在你走之前，你剛剛講得很有道理啦，但是你就說如果總統，你說現在最重要的事是什麼，請總統提名一批新的大法官嘛。"],["林委員思銘：如果沒有通過的話。"],["沈委員發惠：假設沒有過嘛，對啊，所以要趕快審查啊，所以要趕快人事同意權審查，你現在人事同意權不審查，然後說總統要提名一批新的。"],["林委員思銘：我們要審啊。"],["沈委員發惠：對，要審，趕快審查，審查完之後，好，你忙，你去忙、你去忙，我就跟你講這句話而已，我跟你講這句話而已，所有剛剛講的這些前提，就是趕快審查大法官的人事同意權，才知道他們在這邊含血所噴的，說這些都不適任到底是真的不適任，還是假的不適任，讓立法院來審查嘛，對不對？不是你在這裡含著血噴他的臉，就說人家不適任嘛，對不對？這個一定是法律，一定是要立法院審查的嘛，所以請國民黨趕快安排人事同意權的審查，然後人事同意權審查完畢之後，如果7個人通通通過，也許可能這個法就一點急迫性都沒有啊，所以我們不要本末倒置，先審查人事同意權，再來審查憲法訴訟法啦，這是我個人的意見。","主席，我們請副秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：副秘書長，我們還是要回歸，就是看他們今天修這個法，我也很仔細的看過，因為我本來搞不懂，我想說到底他們賣這個狗肉到底是掛什麼樣的羊頭，所以我就趕快仔細看他們的立法理由啦。剛剛關於立法理由，結果講半天，跟這個立法理由都沒有關係，他們就講得很簡單，如果人事同意權沒有通過，我們不讓人事同意權通過之後，你們的人數就不夠了，就會變成三、四個人來決定，所以他們這些修法的急迫性的前提就是說人事同意權不通過，所以他們本來掛著羊頭，其實現在把狗頭就掛上去了，直接說因為我們不會通過你們的同意權，所以我們現在要賣這個狗肉，就是要癱瘓你的憲法法庭的運作。","他們在立法理由裡面講說，我們大法官設15人，立法目的就是什麼、什麼、什麼，我再請問副秘書長，我們大法官會議人數在我們憲法裡面一開始就是15人嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對、對，是15人。最早的大法官會議解釋的時候，曾經有過17人，但是我們……"],["沈委員發惠：不是，副秘書長，我跟你講，最早的時候，我們中華民國憲法的本文，中華民國憲法第七章「司法」裡面的第七十九條規定「司法院設大法官若干人」。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有規定多少人。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有規定多少人。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我們的憲法本文，國民黨每天抱著我們中華民國憲法本文，才說我們的國土是秋海棠葉，這個憲法本文並沒有規定大法官會議人數是15人啊，它的規定是若干人，所以那時候設計這個憲法，它就是要讓少數人來決定、來做解釋嗎？三、四個人就可以解釋嗎？不是！若干人。但是後來我們修憲，經過幾次修憲，大法官的這個制度一直改變，所以那時候，我這邊所整理的是一直到第四次修憲，那時候因為同意權原本是監察院同意，後來修改成國民大會同意，但其他都沒有變，還是若干人，一直到第四次修憲，才修憲把若干人改成15人，這個是在民國86年，1997年的第四次修憲，才確定了大法官會議15人，這個所謂現在我們在講的法定總額，對不對？那時候修這15人的目的是什麼？其實是因為大法官的任期制同時建立，因為以前大法官沒有任期的啊，以前大法官提名以後，他就一直做，做到死，終身職啊，那時候終身職還沒有改，但是要改任期，所以那時候為了任期制，所以它必須要有固定的名額，那時候才有所謂法定總額15人，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["沈委員發惠：然後接下來，到了第六次修憲，也就是民國89年的第六次修憲，才把終身職拿掉，所以這個大法官會議的制度是有變化，它有變動的，並不是國民黨所講的一開始就是法定總額15人，它的目的就是什麼、什麼、什麼，這跟當初的立法目的都不一樣。","今天我們如果修了憲法訴訟法第四條，其實我們還是在這裡好好的整理，剛剛吵架歸吵架，我們還是要好好的來整理，現在、目前如果第四條做了修改，牽涉到整個憲法訴訟法裡面有多少條文裡面有現有總額？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：包含剛才有講到的第二十六條、第三十條、第三十二條、第四十三條，這些關於評決、受理，以及暫時處分的這些規定。"],["沈委員發惠：對，我跟你講，我整理給本委員會聽啦，今天如果第四條修改，雖然只修改第四條一個條文，但是它會牽涉到什麼？憲法訴訟法裡面第十二條有關迴避的規定；第二十六條有關言詞辯論應該出席人數的總額；有關第三十條對於判決參與評議的人數；第三十二條案件受理的人數；第四十三條暫時處分裁定的人數；第四十八條雖然有現有總額，但它是規定立法院的；第七十五條彈劾成立的人數；第八十條宣告政黨解散的人數；第八十七條統一解釋法律命令，參與評議的人數，對不對？我剛講的這樣，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以今天這一條如果修改下去，它牽涉到這麼多法條的修訂啦，這麼多法條修訂之後，我個人認為今天只修第四條最後造成最大矛盾結果的就是第十二條啦，就是憲法訴訟法裡面的第十二條，我們現在把它修改說「本法所稱之現有總額就是法定總額」，那第十二條怎麼解釋？副秘書長解釋一下，第十二條怎麼解釋？第十二條的現有總額就是法定總額，那為什麼又排除掉了呢？顯然第十二條所說的現有總額就不是法定總額啦，你這樣修改之後，第四條跟第十二條就彼此矛盾了啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這需要一些解釋啦，因為現在的話就很清楚……"],["沈委員發惠：所以這個就是倉促立法、粗糙立法！剛剛他們所一再講的，只為了要癱瘓憲法法庭，就做這樣子的修法，這個牽涉到我剛剛所講的這麼多法條，而我們剛剛一再講，憲法法院的判決不是為了政治，為了政治很少，由機關所提出來憲法判決占多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：不到2%。"],["沈委員發惠：不到2%，大部分都是人民所提出來的，所以我們憲法法院的判決跟過去的大法官會議解釋，我一再強調，這是人民司法救濟的最後手段，是攸關人民權益的救濟的最後手段，而這個人民權益救濟的最後手段，我們因為一個案子、二個案子所具有的政治性，然後我們就要把整個憲法法庭癱瘓掉，大部分是人民的權益，就直接這樣剝奪了人民最終救濟的權益，這就好像你對一個個案的司法判決不滿，你就把整個司法制度、把法院判決凍結起來，把中華民國三級法院，因為你們恐龍法官做了這種判決，所以今天立法院把整個三級法院的職能癱瘓掉，這樣做對嗎？今天一整個早上國民黨委員在這裡所講的這幾個解釋的個案，然後就要癱瘓整個憲法法庭的運作，這樣子對嗎？所以我希望今天，但是我看國民黨今天擺出來的陣仗，顯然等一下詢答完了大概他們又要用表決，又要用人數的多數來停止討論、直接表決，我個人認為真的國民黨應該好好考慮，懸崖勒馬，我們先審大法官人事同意權之後，再來審憲法訴訟法。以上。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答，在黃國昌委員質詢後，我們就休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好"},{"start":22.031,"end":44.164,"text":"市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市啦最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄啊"},{"start":45.339,"end":71.606,"text":"倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下,可能應該是新北啦我跟你講啦,自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了,還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡,把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果,現在南部沒有錢,多一點錢也是剛好一點啊"},{"start":72.945,"end":99.316,"text":"預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?主席長你再看一次自由財源是最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色你是看自由財源對不對?市長!"},{"start":100.616,"end":114.934,"text":"主席長是不是?是是是你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性"},{"start":115.635,"end":131.045,"text":"你要自我辯護嘛明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啦"},{"start":138.531,"end":149.971,"text":"你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的"},{"start":151.277,"end":180.016,"text":"是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛"},{"start":181.138,"end":189.303,"text":"啊你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般"},{"start":190.199,"end":216.569,"text":"一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛!"},{"start":219.331,"end":237.908,"text":"連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教於您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修?"},{"start":238.849,"end":266.754,"text":"這是比較權責的問題,所以他事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛,公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多,負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修?"},{"start":268.134,"end":296.526,"text":"地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭"},{"start":297.146,"end":324.986,"text":"賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":327.944,"end":333.467,"text":"主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式,這是好的嗎?"},{"start":352.777,"end":364.144,"text":"這不是來自於自己你如果說要朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對"},{"start":365.714,"end":382.214,"text":"靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎"},{"start":382.975,"end":394.908,"text":"對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嘛當然無存嘛對不對"},{"start":401.328,"end":423.634,"text":"對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位"},{"start":426.837,"end":452.227,"text":"你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛剛講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配,這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦!"},{"start":453.127,"end":479.946,"text":"所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢?"},{"start":481.187,"end":495.283,"text":"對不對我們應該現在事實的講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地質法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關牌文的修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能"},{"start":498.034,"end":520.182,"text":"我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出席我必須說主席長你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯你認為勒?"},{"start":522.503,"end":549.003,"text":"有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對?在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嘛不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對?"},{"start":551.843,"end":556.077,"text":"那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛"},{"start":558.622,"end":585.634,"text":"總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎?"},{"start":587.128,"end":588.628,"text":"你會安心嗎?"},{"start":588.628,"end":612.975,"text":"對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作"},{"start":615.368,"end":640.16,"text":"而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。"},{"start":642.202,"end":652.139,"text":"謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政事務做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家自己的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時10分）謝謝主席，你這樣的裁決本席表示滿意。但對於剛剛賴委員的講法，本席難以接受。請次長跟主計長。"],["主席：請次長、陳主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：次長好。次長，你剛剛回答那麼多，本席就教你一下。剛剛就臺北市、六都所做的比較，不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助，他們算了那麼多。我就問你一點，六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都？請回答。"],["阮次長清華：目前最好的應該是臺北市。"],["郭委員國文：最差的是哪一都？"],["阮次長清華：應該是高雄。"],["郭委員國文：倒數第二名的呢？"],["阮次長清華：倒數第二名的話可能我要再查一下，應該是新北。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，自有財源比較多的應該是臺北市沒有錯啦！已經這麼有錢了，還要要更多的錢！過去長期以來，臺灣就是南北失衡，把錢都集中在臺北，而南北失衡的結果就是現在南部沒有錢，所以多一點錢也是剛好一點而已。預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎？主計長，你再看一次，自有財源最後一名是高雄還是臺南？"],["陳主計長淑姿：臺南。"],["郭委員國文：臺南嘛！對嘛！就是臺南最差，所以補助當然最多，不對嗎？誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛！不然臺北市換我們來執政看看！但就算換我們執政，我跟你講，一樣，不會最多，一樣是最少！因為你們不是看顏色，而是看自有財源，對不對？次長、主計長，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：你們要回答這個問題！自有財源都沒有回答，讓他們在那邊亂講，內行人講外行話講了10分鐘，就要故意染藍染綠，忽略你們文官的中立性，你要自我辯護啊！"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：明明是以自有財源作為依據，這個要講清楚。","剛剛還有好幾個藍營立委說什麼會變成皇帝恩給制，我跟你講，如果按照他們的版本，不論是5,747億或4,080億，或變成所謂的3,208億，都是在強化這個恩給制，會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府，而不想去尋找自有財源，這才是恩給制的內容，也才會造成恩給制，這就是國民黨的版本。拉回來講，我們不希望中央跟地方變成恩給制的關係，所以你們有去調整啊。我請問一下主計長，連續五年來，地方政府是不是有賸餘？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，目前都有賸餘。"],["郭委員國文：最近這一年賸餘多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：648億。"],["郭委員國文：648億，代表我們對他很好。另外，這也代表地方政府的執行能力有限，再給他好幾千億，他有辦法執行嗎？現在給他，他就沒有辦法了，更何況明年增加多少？一般補助款增加多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：連同統籌是……"],["郭委員國文：明年一般補助款多200億嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，190億……"],["郭委員國文：統籌的部分多650億嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以將近900億。"],["郭委員國文：對地方政府來說，絕對數越來越好，問題是他沒有辦法執行，對不對？所以這個要講清楚，並沒有厚此薄彼，並沒有！其實地方政府最重要的問題不是在錢，連續五年的賸餘就代表顯然不是錢的問題，是執行能力的問題，或者要看地方政府跟中央的府際關係。本席就教於您，剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的，是不是單純修改財政收支劃分法就夠了？地方制度法是不是也要修？是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這涉及到權責問題，所以……"],["郭委員國文：事權跟財權是不是要……"],["陳主計長淑姿：事權要下放，也要修改相關法令。"],["郭委員國文：對，中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度來看嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：公債法要不要修？公債法要不要修？"],["阮次長清華：公債法的話也會……"],["郭委員國文：也有影響嘛！公債法是信用卡，讓他舉債的空間多，負債的比例就重，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：還有，地方稅法通則要不要修？"],["阮次長清華：地方稅法通則可以增加地方創稅的來源……"],["郭委員國文：自有財源的來源嘛……"],["阮次長清華：所以這個也要修……"],["郭委員國文：地方稅法通則有沒有空間、有沒有修法的空間？"],["阮次長清華：當然有啊。"],["郭委員國文：也有嘛！所以這四個法一併討論，才會形成中央跟地方良好的府際關係，可以達到夥伴關係的可能性，是不是？對不對？所以這是很清楚的。本席有跟賴召委建議，雖然兩個召委在聊天，沒有重視本席的發言權，但本席還是必須說：兩個召委身負重任，因為建立的不是垂直分配而已，如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係，講白一點，實在太容易、太廉價也太便宜了。如果從這個角度來看，後面我們是不是應該再開公聽會，再來做一個比較完整性的討論？兩位的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：針對負擔事項的部分，是不是可以召開相關的公聽會？"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯！站在整個中央體制下，我們現在是屬於單一體制，主計長，沒有錯吧？但如果每個地方政府的財源都不虞匱乏，且是來自於別人的這種方式，這是好的嗎？又不是來自於自己？如果把單一體制變成聯邦體制的話，很簡單，就是擁有自有財源，是不是？對不對？而不是一直靠中央，對不對？靠中央的結果，剛剛有幾位委員提醒，有的地方政府財政紀律好，有的財政紀律差，天差地別啊！不是嗎？有的拿去做人情，有的拿去綁樁腳，比比皆是，不是嗎？對不對？結果你把中央原來要作為全國計畫、整體規劃的錢拿給地方去做人情、綁樁腳……如果變成這樣的話，財政紀律還存在嗎？當然是蕩然無存，對不對？對不對？我覺得這點很嚴重，這不是計較錢的問題而已。次長、主計長，兩位身負維持財政體制的重責大任，要極力捍衛，不要客氣！如果今天這部法案這樣通過的話，我跟你講，歷史會記得兩位，因為你們沒有好好捍衛啊！怎麼可以讓他亂塗，塗藍、塗綠，在那邊塗來塗去，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，我跟委員報告，我剛才講過，財劃法基本上就是要長治久安，不能只考慮垂直分配，一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括事權的分配，這些都要考慮進去……"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["阮次長清華：這樣才能建立一個大家比較可以接受的方案。"],["郭委員國文：當然、當然。所以你也不要陷入垂直跟水平分配裡……"],["阮次長清華：還有事權的分配問題……"],["郭委員國文：必須站在府際關係的角度，中央跟地方政府府際關係的角度，以及地方政府的財政能力來看，而不是讓地方政府只會越來越厲害，而沒有辦法越來越自主，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：關鍵是這樣子。如果關鍵是這樣子，那麼財政單位的思考跟作法就會不一樣，怎麼會陷入陳玉珍委員或賴士葆委員的邏輯當中，對不對？我們現在應該適時的講，如果真的要修財劃法，是不是要先思考一下地制法、先思考一下地方稅法通則、或思考一下公債法相關條文的修改？做一個整體的配套措施，有沒有可能？次長。"],["阮次長清華：我們會配合主計總處來努力。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["阮次長清華：我們希望能有一個完整的規劃案出來。"],["郭委員國文：對。我必須說，主計長也來自地方（臺南市政府），你也持過家。以前再沒有錢，但只要有紀律在內心，還是可以做出成績，不是嗎？賴清德市長之所以會變總統，跟這個有沒有關聯？你認為呢？有沒有關聯？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們一向非常遵守財政紀律。"],["郭委員國文：對，他從市長變總統，就是因為他有遵守財政紀律，對不對？在你輔政跟他共同推動臺南市政的過程當中，你有這樣很深刻的印象？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：不然臺南美術館怎麼來的，對不對？有一館，還有二館。還有，會展中心怎麼來的，對不對？還有什麼？圖書館怎麼來的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有棒球場。"],["郭委員國文：那時候有許多經費，像一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["郭委員國文：沒有嘛！總共十幾億，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：20億！"],["郭委員國文：二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎？沒有啊！也創造出整個城市的亮點，不是嗎？在事在人為的情況底下，還有以紀律作為基準的情況底下，他一樣有辦法做出亮麗的成績。相對於東部某個縣市來說，給他再多的錢，甚至連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花，你再給他錢，你會安心嗎？對不對？所以在我們處理財政收支劃分法的過程當中，優先思考的就是看財政紀律，優先思考的是全國的整個財政規劃，這個非常重要！所以不應該透過任何一個法案來癱瘓中央政府，使它無法運作！至於整個財政紀律，包括這個體系，也不應該讓任何一個法案來顛覆掉！次長、主計長，你們回去好好想一下，私底下再跟陳玉珍召委溝通一下，我相信他是相對明理的人，他中文程度也不差，所以你跟他溝通，他一定會理解。費一下心，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。我們賴清德總統當市長的時候，他的財政計畫把臺南市做得這麼好，我想就算我們修正這個法，他當總統也可以把國家治理得很好。","就如剛剛所說，我們休息讓大家吃飯，兩點半繼續，謝謝。","休息（12時20分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"],["主席：我們下午的會議兩點半繼續開始，我們繼續開始廣泛討論。鍾佳濱委員也要發言，這邊簽名。","接著我們請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f071b5c49f053b2913d42df3203622d4e3398f8787296810fcf2e44bbea44e61d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:55:40 - 12:09:09","影片長度":"00:13:29","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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我要聲援一下主席這個執政委員不能夠對主席這樣子霸凌這個主席對你們有夠好讓你們一直講話、一直講話、一直講話不要這樣子啦不要這樣子啦 你去看其他的你們時間暫停了 這個程序用底時間暫停時間暫停 我都讓大家暢所欲言"},{"start":61.909,"end":86.564,"text":"沒有給一些正確的資訊啦齁我怕這位大眾得到錯誤的資訊,後面那些人是舉債的齁六件毒品騎死贏人啦齁,好了,好了好好尊重一下賴委員的發言每個人要發言可以再繼續登記齁我是有感的齁,我到其他委員會民進黨的委員當招委的時候時間一到不給你多講10秒鐘"},{"start":88.805,"end":109.374,"text":"10秒不給多講!很清楚的!這樣大消息!然後我們成立政黨一直講!剛才財議一直講一直講!一直講給他一直講說沒關係!這樣的主席還欺負他!莫名其妙!好了!好了!下班!大家請坐下齁!門好了!請便便!"},{"start":110.874,"end":118.521,"text":"今天沒有要質詢!今天當然要主帖!今天沒有要主帖!不要那麼緊張啦!不表現啦齁!來!出場!"},{"start":135.618,"end":154.628,"text":"你們現在啊!啊!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一等!等一"},{"start":155.808,"end":180.287,"text":"修了五次啦!民進黨的委員提了幾個版本就是現在盡力要省的民進黨中央委員也提版本N個、N個加一、N個加二、N個加三大家都跟我們要修啊!為什麼左農派說啊!這邊五個站不要修了因為賴清德想要到皇帝"},{"start":181.957,"end":194.52,"text":"把地方政委都當作乞丐跟他分級啊來 我們就看第一張我們就先要自己分分的結果是什麼來 剪掉第二張分的結果是什麼下一張來 分的結果是什麼分的結果就是綠、大、藍、小、小、橫、大第一名我們統統被說管家"},{"start":212.006,"end":223.038,"text":"補助款一般補助跟專案補助排列是第一名佔他的支出68%第二名高雄市佔63%比較略多第三名新北市52%"},{"start":233.564,"end":261.689,"text":"第四名,台中市52%過來第一名,桃園市最後一名,台北市啊!大家記得看什麼騰磋紅杯睡魂?這個資料都你們的?好,不用緊盯,就是你們不要分配!怎麼分配?財政部大小眼,主計總組大小眼給台南第一名,給高雄第一名台北市最後一名,就是你們分的結果!就是你們分的結果!"},{"start":263.342,"end":278.013,"text":"就是你們分的結果!這樣結果老百姓能夠接受嗎?其他的六都啊!台南市就是空氣的空氣咩!台南市就是空氣的空氣咩!尤其現在耐心的要當總統了!已經當總統了!"},{"start":281.249,"end":306.327,"text":"結果 排位分得更多來 回到第一張分的結果就是高雄市拿1,229億台北市拿861億差370億啊你們分的結果就這樣子啊你們分的分 打個肉極喔 打個肉極喔結果呢結果呢就是道地的大蝦園毒貨"},{"start":309.693,"end":322.005,"text":"民眾黨執政的縣市、六都裡面的兩都、台南市、高雄市、把台北市踩的地地的,這個就是你們自己分的結果。來!市長能夠講這個嗎?"},{"start":325.39,"end":350.521,"text":"主席怎麼賣得下你啊?委員長我講一下啊!這個結果是你們分的啊!你看哪一站讀哪一站你們分的結果啊!分給我講一下給我聽啊!這個部分是包括一般性的補助?對!全部加起來!統籌!加一般、加庄案!全部加起來!沒錯!是!那統籌的部分就是按比率嘛!那計劃...對!我的問題是加起來!來回到剛剛那一張"},{"start":352.674,"end":374.581,"text":"我就是要跟你講加起來的啊!統統交補助收入啊!中央裕助啊!但是我跟報告委員我這裡的資料是台北市是1043.3億高雄市是1066.5億現在講的是114,你講113啊!我們看再下一張這是114的啦來來來我們來看113多少你說多少?台北市多少?"},{"start":382.847,"end":396.793,"text":"一百一十三的部﹑臺北市多少?你講?臺北市多少?你講?九百二十二八百四十一個就給你們資料啊!吃辣辣人主計總署把這東西列資料勒!拜託!這是法定決算的勒!"},{"start":398.254,"end":399.335,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":399.335,"end":400.496,"text":"你們看得到嗎?"},{"start":400.496,"end":417.549,"text":"台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、台北市最少一名、"},{"start":420.231,"end":426.258,"text":"然後呢台南市都是第一名啊這就是你們分的結果啊你們分的結果組聚總組結果就是這樣啊"},{"start":429.542,"end":431.504,"text":"這是你公佈的資料!"},{"start":458.373,"end":481.914,"text":"你公佈了16號,你公佈之後,來,再回頭上一張。我就跟你講,你這幾年蔡英文民進黨執政以後,這個比例第一名就是台南市,第二名就是高雄市,都沒變了,都沒變,這個排名都沒有變。"},{"start":483.703,"end":502.032,"text":"怎麼會讓人家服氣呢?你們自己分就按顏色來分!因為你們執政你們分得多一點!這樣而已啊!啊不是你們!你們執政你們生意要走!啊就是這樣!怎麼分?就這樣分了!再下一次"},{"start":507.038,"end":512.652,"text":"這個很清楚看得到嗎?你們分的結果就是用政治利害分法這個老實講"},{"start":514.943,"end":526.466,"text":"我很不喜歡把財要挖遍政治性的法案它是到底的極力受傷在講錢講話我不要跟我講這一個故事我覺得你為什麼出來幾年來從111年到現在台北市都最後一名你就問我回答這個問題啊問你這個你不要給我講其他的最後一名啊!不管最後一名是什麼六都、六都最後一名"},{"start":544.27,"end":554.374,"text":"六度最後一名六度最後一名啦我們比較六度不要講其他縣市啦你不要講金額我講比例"},{"start":556.874,"end":571.907,"text":"就是你給他的錢占他支出的比例台北市114人比高雄市少了370億這個數字是你們公佈的數字啊主計中處主計中處因為它是有包括統籌分配對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!"},{"start":585.399,"end":599.806,"text":"統統備稅款加一般補助加專案補助三個加起來不管有多少錢站台支出的比例這個很重要我們看待的台北市你看114人36%而已111人37%112人"},{"start":607.193,"end":608.975,"text":"47%113年43%114年42%就是你補充的錢佔他的支出比42%"},{"start":621.377,"end":630.883,"text":"就是政壇民眾黨團、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員林思銘等22人、委員"},{"start":651.817,"end":669.552,"text":"你不要講金的,我講比例啊,聽不懂你金因為它的Mass大啊它的支出大啊,台北市的支出大啊對不對,它的支出2000多億,新北市支出也大當然你給它全部加起來就多,但是我說比例比例比例"},{"start":670.373,"end":673.977,"text":"這個組計長都假裝不懂,其實你都很清楚啊所以你什麼公式?你什麼公式?你有什麼公式?你有什麼公式?有嗎?有嗎?請問有公式嗎?那個不是公式啦,那只是原則啦"},{"start":690.595,"end":696.261,"text":"土地占20%、人口占20%、整個營業稅占50%、其他的財政支出占50%這個教科書不要講這個啦!不要講這個!"},{"start":706.792,"end":724.142,"text":"不是,但是我就要問你結果那個是原則而已啊結果結果從114年到現在台北市你們的補助包括同種分稅款包括一般補助包括計劃補助全部加起來台北市都輸了一名"},{"start":726.05,"end":741.355,"text":"臺南市就是第一名,高雄市就是第二名。這些東西就是很清楚你們自己分的結果就是大消炎了。對不對?哦,這樣,台南、高雄就是你們的兒子,其他都是小小的兒子,就變成這樣。"},{"start":742.775,"end":771.116,"text":"都這樣欺負非執政黨執政的一般計劃性補助他是按根本沒有回到問題啊我問你為什麼這樣結果結果是這樣這是你的數字啊主計中處的數字我就問你為什麼這樣你不要跟我講計劃講些五十三個都沒有回到問題啊他根據第一個根據每個縣市的一個財政狀況你們不能承諾民進黨台北市不會最後一名"},{"start":772.506,"end":792.853,"text":"可以承諾嗎?不是,這是整個按照原則還包括它計劃型,因為...所以!草案要分,要重新修嘛!你們權力太大了啊!你們再把錢都坐在手上其他的縣市要錢,包括六都都跟你們像乞丐一樣跟你們要,這個不是民主常態啦!我要講,卓榮泰你錯了啦!你們就跟著錯了!謝謝!"},{"start":803.359,"end":803.379,"text":"謝謝賴委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時55分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請財政部阮次長以及主計長。"],["主席：請阮次長及陳主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：在講之前，我要聲援一下主席，執政黨的委員不能夠對主席這樣子霸凌啊！"],["李委員坤城：哪有霸凌！"],["賴委員士葆：主席對你們有夠好，讓你們一直講話、一直講話、一直講話，不要這樣子啦！"],["李委員坤城：是主席霸凌委員耶！"],["賴委員士葆：不要這樣子啦！你去看其他的……時間暫停，這個是程序問題，時間暫停。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。我都讓大家暢所欲言啦！沒有給一些正確的資訊，我怕社會大眾得到錯誤資訊，COVID-19相關預算是舉債的。"],["賴委員士葆：路見不平，氣死閒人啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：大家有麥克風耶！說什麼霸凌……"],["主席：好，尊重一下賴委員的發言，每個人要發言可以再繼續登記。"],["賴委員士葆：我是有感而發，我到其他委員會，民進黨委員當召委的時候，時間一到，不給我多講10秒鐘，10秒都不可以多講，很清楚的，這樣大小眼，而我們陳玉珍讓你一直講，剛才蔡易餘也一直講、一直講、一直講，給他一直講都沒關係，主席都這樣子了還欺負他，莫名其妙！好了，shut up！"],["主席：大家請坐下。"],["賴委員士葆：好了、好了，不用鬧了，今天沒有要質詢……"],["主席：好，大家尊重發言的委員，請坐下。"],["賴委員士葆：今天沒有要逐條，好了、好了，時間開始。"],["主席：我會讓你們講，好，繼續問吧！"],["賴委員士葆：時間開始了。"],["主席：繼續問，來，繼續問。"],["蔡委員易餘：大家有麥克風，說什麼霸凌……"],["主席：來、來、來，蔡委員，會讓你有第二輪、第三輪，你坐下來。"],["賴委員士葆：今天沒有要逐條，不要那麼緊張啦！不用表現啦！次長，你們現在……"],["賴委員惠員：……"],["賴委員士葆：好了，「惦惦、惦惦」，我在講話，你「惦惦」！我講話，你「惦惦」！","兩位長官，你們現在就跟著卓榮泰的一聲令下，認為這個東西現在的公式有夠讚，不能去修，我們看看過去十幾年，修了5次啦！民進黨的委員提了幾個版本，就是現在今天要審的，民進黨有多少委員提版本？N個，N個加1、N個加2、N個加3，大家都認為要修啊！為什麼卓榮泰說現在有夠讚，不要修了？因為賴清德想要當皇帝，把地方政府都當作像乞丐來討錢一樣啊！來，我們就看第一張簡報，你們到現在都自己來分，分的結果是什麼？分的結果就是綠大、藍小，小很多。統籌分配稅款加補助款（一般補助跟專案補助），臺南市第一名啊！占它的支出68%；第二名高雄市，占63%；我是比較六都，第三名新北市，52%；第四名臺中市，52%；再過來第五名桃園市；最後一名臺北市啊！大家就要看統籌分配稅款，這個資料都你們的，不用緊張，就是你們這樣分配，怎麼分配？財政部大小眼、主計總處大小眼，給臺南第一名，給高雄第二名，臺北市最後一名，這就是你們分配的結果，這樣的結果老百姓能夠接受嗎？其他的六都，臺南市就是鑲金包銀，高雄市也是鑲金包銀，尤其現在賴清德當總統了，已經當總統了，結果臺南分得更多。","來，我們回到第一張簡報，分的結果就是高雄市拿1,229億，臺北市拿861億，差了370億，你們分的結果就是這樣子。你們說大家都有錢、大家都有錢，以結果論，就是道地的大小眼，獨厚民進黨執政的縣市，六都裡面的兩都──臺南市、高雄市，把臺北市踩得低低的，這就是你們自己分的結果。來，次長要說一下嗎？主計長也可以，兩位長官講一下，這個結果是你們分的啊，你說有多好又有多好，這是你們分的結果啊！分別講一下給我聽啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分是包括一般性的補助……"],["賴委員士葆：對，全部加起來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：包括計畫型的補助。"],["賴委員士葆：統籌加一般、加專案，全部加起來，沒錯。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是……"],["賴委員士葆：就這樣子啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：統籌的部分就是按比率，另外……"],["賴委員士葆：我的問題是加起來，我就是要跟你講加起來的，統籌加補助收入，中央挹注啊，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是，報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：簡報資料中的B加C啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我這裡的資料，臺北市是1,043.3億，高雄市是1,066.5億。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在講的是114年，你講113的，我們再看下一張。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是114的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：來，我們來看，113年你說多少？臺北市多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：113年的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：臺北市多少，你講！840億啊，這都是你的資料，資料來源是主計總處，這些都是你的資料，拜託！這是法定決算耶！對不對？你看就知道了，臺北市最後一名，每次都最後一名，每年都最後一名，欺負臺北市，莫甚於此啊！每年都最後一名，你看，從110年都是你們執政、民進黨執政，111年、112年、113年臺北市都是第六名，六都裡面第六名，然後臺南市都是第一名，這就是主計總處分的結果。結果就是這樣啊！對不對？這是你的資料啊，資料來源是主計總處，拜託！都沒在做功課。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是……"],["賴委員士葆：主計總處啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們的部分，臺北市113年度是922.4。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪，你公布的啊，怎麼都不對？你那個資料……"],["陳主計長淑姿：高雄市是887……"],["賴委員士葆：你的資料怎麼來的？你公布的，這是你對外公布的資料，拜託！這是你公布的資料喔！來，再回到上一張，我就跟你講，這幾年蔡英文、民進黨執政以後，這個比例第一名就是臺南市，第二名就是高雄市，都沒有變耶！這個排名都沒有變，怎麼會讓大家服氣呢？你們自己分就按顏色來分，因為你們執政，你們分得多一點，如此而已，不是你們執政的，就是「細姨仔囝」，就拿比較少，就是這樣。怎麼分？就這樣分啊！這個很清楚看得到，你們分的結果就是用政治力來分，這個老實講，我很不希望把財劃法變政治性的法案，它是道地的錢債相殺……"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，它這個部分，像一般縣市補助的部分，主要是針對它第一個財政差短，第二個……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要跟我講這些用詞，我就問你為什麼這幾年來，從111年到現在臺北市都最後一名？就回答我這個問題。我問你這個，你不要跟我講其他的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：臺北市也沒有最後一名，是……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一名啊！不然最後一名是誰？六都最後一名！我們比較六都，不要講其他縣市。"],["陳主計長淑姿：桃園比較少一點啦！"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講金額，我是講「比例」，就是你給它的錢占它支出的比例，臺北市114年比高雄市少了370億，這個數字是你們公布的數字，主計總處、主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它是有包括統籌分配……"],["賴委員士葆：有啦，我算起來……"],["陳主計長淑姿：有包括在內……"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為一般縣市會依照人口……"],["賴委員士葆：對，都有。"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有土地面積去算。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題，我就跟你講，統籌分配稅款加一般性補助、加專案補助，三個加起來，不管有多少錢，占它支出的比例，這個很重要。你看，臺北市110年36%而已，111年37%，112年百分之四十幾，113年43%，114年42%，你補助的錢占它的支出就是42%，臺北市就是這樣啊，這個很明顯。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，它本身就會分，因為計畫型補助是在部會裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：我在跟你講這個，你不要雞同鴨講啦！我問一下次長，次長，你回答一下為什麼這樣分？為什麼大小眼？"],["阮次長清華：基本上是這樣子的，因為計畫型的我們這邊沒有資料，但是如果是一般性補助款還有統籌分配稅款，目前分配最多的還是臺北市，它114年度的預算是849億，是六都裡面最高的，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講金額，我是講「比例」，你聽不懂？因為它的mass大，它的支出大，臺北市的支出大，對不對？它的支出是兩千多億，新北市支出也大，當然，你給它的全部加起來是多，但是我說的是「比例」，這個主計長假裝不懂，其實你都很清楚啊！"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，基本上，這都是按照公式分配的。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼公式？"],["阮次長清華：我們沒有辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼公式？你用什麼公式？"],["阮次長清華：統籌分配稅款就是……"],["賴委員士葆：你用什麼公式？"],["阮次長清華：統籌分配稅款的公式。"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：就是按照土地面積……"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？請問你，有公式嗎？"],["阮次長清華：有啊，土地面積還有……"],["賴委員士葆：那個不是公式，只是原則啦！"],["阮次長清華：沒有、沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：土地占20%、人口占20%、整個營業稅占50%、其他的財政支出占10%，這個是教科書，不要講這個啦！"],["阮次長清華：這是按公式來分配，所以我們是沒有辦法去動它的。"],["賴委員士葆：但是我要問你結果，那個是原則而已啊！結果！結果！從110年到現在，你們給臺北市的補助，包括統籌分配稅款、一般性補助、計畫型補助，全部加起來，臺北市都是最後一名，臺南市都是第一名，高雄市都是第二名。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是……"],["賴委員士葆：這個東西就是很清楚，你們自己分的結果就是大小眼啦！對不對？臺南、高雄是你們的小孩，其他都是「細姨仔囝」，就變成這樣，都這樣欺負非執政黨執政的「都」。"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告一下，一般計畫型補助，政府會依照……"],["賴委員士葆：你講這個沒有回答我的問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：會依照它的一個……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你為什麼結果是這樣？這是你的數字啊！主計總處的數字，我就問你為什麼這樣，你不要跟我講計畫，講些五四三的，都沒有回答我問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：可是它是每一年都在變動的。第一個，根據每個縣市的財政狀況……"],["賴委員士葆：你能不能承諾，明年度臺北市不會最後一名？可以承諾嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，這是整個按照原則，還包括它是計畫型，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：所以財劃法要重新修嘛，你們權力太大了，你們都把錢抓在手上，其他的縣市要錢，包括六都，都像乞丐一樣跟你們要，這個不是民主常態啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是它有一定的換算標準。"],["賴委員士葆：卓榮泰錯了，你們就跟著錯了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","各位同仁，現在已經12點了，我們要不要休息，讓官員還有大家吃個飯？還是……"],["郭委員國文：講到下一個啦！"],["主席：還是你們要一邊吃一邊講也是可以，都可以啦！我尊重大家的意見，到郭國文委員，大家有沒有意見？郭國文委員講完以後，我們讓官員休息一下吃飯。"],["郭委員國文：下一個就是我。"],["主席：下一個還不是你，下一位是陳培瑜，你別急。你們要換也可以。郭委員講完我們就休息，讓大家吃飯，好嗎？好，你們兩位交換，來，要送單子。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：郭委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：下午幾點開始？"],["主席：休息的話，兩點半來，好不好？"],["陳委員培瑜：兩點半？"],["主席：對，好，郭委員講完就讓大家休息吃飯，讓官員休息吃飯再繼續。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0b46a7c16ced82654b7a8b6cc2b6ae9b7398f8787296810fc5656869f75d93f9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:09:37 - 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謝謝主席 外交部長有請有請外交部長好 部長午安這幾個重大時事請教一下外交部的一些意見當然剛剛前面很多委員也關心我們的余大雷這個大使說我們已經做好準備"},{"start":22.689,"end":50.663,"text":"這個面對戰爭我們要學習烏克蘭不需要美國的援助這個事情不是遇到侵略的時候大家要不要迎難而上的問題當然要迎難而上啊有誰會不保衛自己的國家呢對不對所以我是覺得外交部在評論這件事情的時候不要放錯重點大家都要迎難而上可是我覺得這件事情最大的問題是講不需要美國援助這是一個很大的事情請問部長不依靠美軍美軍不用出兵是否已經成為我們中華民國外交部的官方立場"},{"start":52.343,"end":68.712,"text":"根據台灣關係法,美國如果是要能夠來提供台灣自我防禦的能力以外當然也有相對應的所謂六項保證"},{"start":70.154,"end":97.983,"text":"在政治上來講尤其是國內安定民心的角度來講大家都期待尤其是民進黨政府執政的期間除了抗中保台之外我們也是全球所謂的民主大聯盟的重要議員從美方的角度來出發讓重要民國維持民主國家的地位避免中共的擴張是不是美國重要的國家戰略意義很重要應該是很重要對不對所以在過去我們所看到的所有的宣傳語言上是不是都說他們會支持我們"},{"start":98.991,"end":106.71,"text":"那現在中國大陸這邊大軍壓境對不對動輒文攻武嚇萬一真的哪一天走到戰爭的時候我們真的不需要美軍的幫忙嗎"},{"start":108.174,"end":128.696,"text":"我們很希望美軍能夠協助臺灣來對抗這個中國的群裂啊很希望啊你講我們要學烏克蘭也有臺灣關係嘛還有六項保證這些而且各種的法律通過的還有這些撥款相關的這些包括他們的這個"},{"start":130.958,"end":145.525,"text":"參眾兩院通過的法律那個都是有效的當真正遇到大型的國際衝突甚至到戰爭的時候當然很多的情勢就會改變了我現在問外交部的是這到底是不是我們的官方主張因為余大雷是重要的角色他在美國的福斯新聞受了專訪"},{"start":146.305,"end":149.387,"text":"臺灣有自我防衛的能力,如果中共侵略臺灣,那我們在哪裡抵抗啊?"},{"start":162.136,"end":181.752,"text":"有一套的說法就大概在媒體輿論上面講叫以美論也就是說大家在挑戰說他們真的會出兵嗎?真的會大力協助嗎?大家就扣這個是以美論對不對那現在是等於我們中華民國最外對外的正式的官方代表等於是在唱和之間不用不用來所以我講這是很嚴重我希望部長你做好準備啦"},{"start":182.392,"end":201.385,"text":"你現在在美國人面前他如果是我們重要的盟友如果民主大聯盟的戰略價值那是不可動搖的那從重要民國的國家安全國家立場裡面你當然要在美國人面前積極主張嘛你當然要主張必要的時候你當然要出兵協防因為這是這是避免威權國家集權擴張的重要的防線"},{"start":202.586,"end":221.981,"text":"我們要不要做這樣的主張部長當然自助人助嘛我們一定要自己就是說要有這個保護自己的這個決心跟能力嘛我們的友邦他們也一定會來協助我們嘛來維護我們這個民主自由我覺得你今天的回答沒有很有底氣"},{"start":222.601,"end":244.739,"text":"剛好米娟大雷公使在外面受訪是在福斯新聞馬上現在是美國大選川普又曾經講這個我們是絕對不會出兵的你如果今天我們的官方立場不講清楚不積極主張沒有啦他沒有講絕對不出兵啦你很難去認你很難去不讓大家去聯想這是被押寶而且是順應我再次強調既然美國是我們重要的盟友"},{"start":245.359,"end":262.439,"text":"我們都要維繫兩邊的關係是我們都完全支持也不會反對我們都希望外交人好好發揮但是問題就是支持不代表你要百分之百順應啊我很擔心這樣子的言論你講這樣的言論也許背後有一些外交上的戰略考量還是說部長你要分享一下他這樣去講"},{"start":263.5,"end":277.967,"text":"請問對我國國家利益有什麼具體的幫助?背後的戰略考量是什麼?你如果在這一部分你可以講出一套論述一套說明讓國內的民心可以安定那也就算了但看起來從你剛剛答詢講法條的東西或什麼的我提醒部長這個事情要"},{"start":278.707,"end":300.436,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們過去跟川普政府跟拜登政府都有很好的合作而且美國是參眾兩院跨黨派支持台灣他們都已經把支持的話講得這麼清楚了為了安全要全球共同這是全世界的事情不是我們自己的事情"},{"start":301.036,"end":318.509,"text":"臺灣是全世界的事情,這樣才能夠最大化國際上對我們的支持跟聲援才能夠最大化我們國家安全的利益我們期待看到外交部的立場是這樣臺灣是全世界的事情,但是全世界包含具體的軍事協助你不能夠自己講自己自結武裝這是不對的,是在外交戰場上"},{"start":321.45,"end":336.354,"text":"這一定要小心為之啊,這重點不是我們要不要對抗,當然要對抗,人家都親門他戶了,每一個人這是我們國民的義務,可是全世界也要幫忙。從余大連的講話到全社會什麼防衛動員任性,就是學烏克蘭,他們有幫烏克蘭嗎?這就是我們擔心的事情嘛。"},{"start":344.497,"end":367.539,"text":"所以請積極主張好不好 外交部部長這是我非常重要的提醒第二個重要的時事這個今天上頭版阿拉伯組織了一個非官方的詐騙集團然後反過來告我們正式住在這邊的大使那不是笑話一則嗎部長我知道你前面也回答過剛剛徐小新委員關心對不對你講說你會積極處理是人民團體的登記當然主責是在內政部嘛"},{"start":368.14,"end":395.465,"text":"主持人內政部的時候這個以NGO為名義來登錄可是請問他最近這段時間做的是包含說他可以提供文件認證以及商務開拓這個是NGO的工作嗎部長即使他有向內政部登記為社團他如果違反了他登記的這個目的那有進行這個商務的行為是不是明確的違法這個如果違法就要辦啊要辦對不對部長司法機關還有這是大家就是要"},{"start":396.746,"end":413.082,"text":"臺灣人民是有受害人那個在官司進行因為我們這個部分是屬於就是說因為我們駐台的這三個代表處或辦事處他們有被司法包括警察所謂的要傳訊的還要被抓去調查我們這個部分"},{"start":415.505,"end":433.462,"text":"國際機關對於外交豁免權的概念不夠清楚這是另外一回事但現在問題是這個這個為組織在外面繼續招搖撞騙對不對前面也不是沒有對過我們也是要有證據啦讓外交部你們跟內政部現在有沒有商量要怎麼處理這個事有沒有現在具體進度在哪裡"},{"start":434.483,"end":459.969,"text":"他這樣等於是形同對其他國家對我們在駐台的大使造成的騷擾嘛對造成一些困境我們要怎麼處理要不要積極幫他們主張他們的權益一定要保護我們這個駐台的這個呃呃呃此節跟他們呃代表處或是呃呃這個哈的外交上面的權益要不要跟內政部長喊喊話這個是要嚴肅辦理他是去登記但是他的他的"},{"start":460.689,"end":485.817,"text":"你辦理的業務或是行為有沒有違法這個是需要去查才能夠了解的我們也不能夠現在就去論斷你說不能夠現在論斷這個很清楚違反NGO的設立對不對宣稱自己是商務代表還協助辦了簽證結果是假的被正式的官方被打槍這就標準詐騙已經被認證了當然是違法行為現在違法行為就是要具體的事證來加以這個所以部長你認為到現在這個是沒有具體的事證嗎"},{"start":489.938,"end":495.311,"text":"如果就媒體報導那個是有事證喔欸你們部裡面沒有處理過這個事嗎來那個應該是亞非斯啦對不對"},{"start":499.192,"end":499.572,"text":"我提醒外交部強度不夠"},{"start":526.857,"end":537.216,"text":"但是嚴重影響我們持續在跟內政部一直在有可能會影響邦誼這是一件大事啊部長司長該強硬就強硬這個嚴重影響我們的外交狀況因為請內政部嚴肅處理啊難道不應該嗎部長"},{"start":539.739,"end":560.443,"text":"對阿,就是如果有違反登記去執行不是屬於法定的業務阿,這當然就要查辦明確了嘛,要查辦對不對,早講就好只是因為後來他們去告嘛,阿這個過程我剛剛講的就是有關於因為這些駐台的代表或是他們辦事處的這些外交的權,我們要去維護他"},{"start":563.024,"end":564.045,"text":"我們一定是伊法來執行"},{"start":587.613,"end":587.774,"text":"謝謝辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時9分）謝謝主席，外交部長有請。"],["主席：有請外交部長。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：幾個重大時事請教一下外交部的意見，當然剛剛前面很多委員也關心俞大大使說，我們已經做好準備，面對戰爭要學習烏克蘭，不需要美國的援助。這個事情不是遇到侵略時，大家要不要迎難而上的問題，當然要迎難而上啊！有誰會不保衛自己的國家呢，對不對？所以我覺得外交部在評論這件事情時不要放錯重點，大家都要迎難而上，可是我覺得這件事情最大的問題是講不需要美國援助，這是一個很大的事情啊！請問部長，不依靠美軍，美軍不用出兵，是否已經成為我們中華民國外交部的官方立場？"],["林部長佳龍：因為根據臺灣關係法，美國如果要提供臺灣自我防禦的能力以外，當然也有相對應的所謂六項保證。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是在政治上，尤其是從國內安定民心的角度來講，大家都期待，尤其是民進黨政府執政期間，除了抗中保臺之外，我們也是全球所謂民主大聯盟的重要一員，從美方的角度出發，讓中華民國維持民主國家的地位，避免中共擴張是不是美國重要的國家戰略利益？"],["林部長佳龍：對，很重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是很重要，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以過去我們所看到的所有宣傳語言上是不是都說他們會支持我們？現在中國大陸大軍壓境，動輒文攻武嚇，萬一真的哪一天走到戰爭的時候，我們真的不需要美軍的幫忙嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們很希望美軍能夠協助臺灣來對抗中國的侵略。"],["牛委員煦庭：很希望，但你講我們要學烏克蘭……"],["林部長佳龍：因為臺灣關係法跟六項保證，而且各種法律通過還有撥款相關，包括他們參眾兩院通過的法律，那個都是有效的。"],["牛委員煦庭：當真正遇到大型的國際衝突，甚至是戰爭的時候，很多情勢當然就會改變。我現在問外交部的是，這到底是不是我們的官方主張，因為俞大是重要的角色，他在美國福斯新聞受了專訪，這當然是國際震動的事情，所以部長要不要正式澄清一下，到底……"],["林部長佳龍：因為大家很關心，我詳細看過他的訪問，我覺得他講的就是臺灣有自我防衛的能力，如果中共侵略臺灣，那我們當然要抵抗啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：有一套說法，大家在媒體輿論上面講的疑美論，也就是大家在挑戰他們真的會出兵嗎？真的會大力協助嗎？大家就扣這個是疑美論，對不對？現在我們中華民國對外正式的官方代表等於是在唱和這件事，認為美國不用來……"],["林部長佳龍：這是……"],["牛委員煦庭：我想這是很嚴重的，我希望部長你做好準備，你現在在美國人面前，如果他們是我們重要的盟友，如果民主大聯盟的戰略價值是不可動搖的，從中華民國的國家安全、國家立場，你當然要在美國人面前積極主張，當然要主張必要的時候要出兵協防，因為這是避免威權國家極權擴張的重要防線，我們要不要做這樣的主張？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：當然自助人助嘛，我們自己一定要有保護自己的決心跟能力……"],["牛委員煦庭：我順著這個話……"],["林部長佳龍：當然我們的友邦也一定會來協助我們，維護我們民主自由……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我覺得您今天的回答沒有很有底氣，剛好俞大大使在外面福斯新聞受訪，馬上就是美國大選，川普又曾經講：我們是絕對不會出兵的。如果今天我們的官方立場不講清楚，不積極主張……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有啦，他沒有講絕對不出兵啦……"],["牛委員煦庭：很難不讓大家去聯想這是不是押寶？而且是順應。我再次強調，既然美國是我們重要的盟友，要維繫兩邊的關係，這我們都完全支持、不會反對，我們都希望外交人員好好發揮，但問題就是支持不代表要百分之百順應，我很擔心這樣子的言論，也許這樣的言論背後有一些外交上的戰略考量，還是部長你要分享一下，請問他這樣講對我國國家利益有什麼具體的幫助？背後的戰略考量是什麼？如果在這部分你可以講出一套論述、一套說明，讓國內的民心可以安定，那也就算了。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但看起來從你剛剛答詢，講法條或什麼的，我提醒部長這個事情要審慎因應。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實我們過去跟川普政府及拜登政府都有很好的合作，而且美國是參眾兩院跨黨派支持臺灣……"],["牛委員煦庭：他們已經把支持的話講得這麼清楚了，該積極主張……"],["林部長佳龍：他們要……"],["牛委員煦庭：為了安全要全球共同，這是全世界的事情，不是我們自己的事情，是全世界的事情，這樣才能夠最大化國際對我們的支持跟聲援，也才能夠最大化國家安全的利益，我很期待看到外交部的立場是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：臺灣是全世界的事情，但包含具體的軍事協助，你不能夠自己講自絕於武裝，這是不對的，在外交戰場上自絕於武裝是不對的。"],["林部長佳龍：對、對，我們一定要自助人助。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一定要小心為之，重點不是我們要不要對抗，當然要對抗，人家都侵門踏戶了，這是我們每一個國民的義務，可是全世界也要幫忙，你不能因為我們對抗……"],["林部長佳龍：全社會防禦韌性的加強就是我們的決心之一。"],["牛委員煦庭：從俞大的講話到全社會防禦動員韌性就是學烏克蘭，他們有幫烏克蘭嗎？這就是我們擔心的事情嘛，所以請積極主張，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這是我非常重要的提醒。","第二個重要的時事，上了今天的頭版，阿拉伯組織了一個非官方的詐騙集團，然後反過來告我們正式代表處駐在這邊的大使，那不是笑話一則嗎？部長，我知道前面有回答過，剛剛徐巧芯委員有關心，對不對？你說你會積極處理……"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然人民團體的登記主責是在內政部，這以NGO為名義登錄，可是請問他們最近這段時間做的事，包含他們可以提供文件認證以及商務開拓，這個是NGO的工作嗎？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：即使它有向內政部登記為社團，如果它違反了登記的……"],["牛委員煦庭：目的，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：違反登記的目的，有進行商務的行為……"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是明確的違法？"],["林部長佳龍：這個如果違法就要辦啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：要辦，對不對？部長……"],["林部長佳龍：司法機關還有大家……"],["牛委員煦庭：臺灣人民是有受害的，那個官司在進行中，你們跟內政部……"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們駐臺的這三個代表處或辦事處，他們有被司法機關，包括警察等有所謂的傳訊……"],["牛委員煦庭：還要被抓去調查？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們這個部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：也要加強宣導……"],["林部長佳龍：我們要確保……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們自己國內公務機關……"],["林部長佳龍：這個外交豁免權啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：我們自己國內公務機關、國際機關對於外交豁免的概念不夠清楚，這是另外一回事，但現在問題是這個偽組織在外面繼續招搖撞騙，對不對？前面也不是沒有……"],["林部長佳龍：我們也是要有證據啦！讓外交部就事來論……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們跟內政部現在有沒有商量要怎麼處理這個事情？有沒有？現在具體進度在哪裡？這樣等於是形同對其他國家、對我們駐臺的大使造成騷擾，造成一些困境，請問我們要怎麼處理？要不要積極幫他們主張他們的權益，要吧？"],["林部長佳龍：一定要保護我們駐臺使節跟他們代表處等在外交上面的權益。"],["牛委員煦庭：要不要跟內政部長喊喊話？這個事情要嚴肅辦理……"],["林部長佳龍：它是去登記，但是它辦理的業務或是行為有沒有違法，是需要去查才能夠了解的。"],["牛委員煦庭：掛羊頭賣狗肉……"],["林部長佳龍：我們也不能夠現在就去論斷。"],["牛委員煦庭：你說不能夠現在論斷，但這個很清楚，違反NGO的設立，宣稱自己是商務代表，還協助辦了簽證，結果是假的，被正式的官方代表打槍，這就是標準詐騙，已經被認證了，當然是違法行為，現在有違法行為之後……"],["林部長佳龍：有具體的事證來加以……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以部長你認為到現在這個部分是沒有具體的事證嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：如果就媒體報導，那個是有事證喔！"],["牛委員煦庭：你們部裡面沒有處理過這個事嗎？亞非司有沒有處理過這個事情？"],["賀司長忠義：跟委員報告，這個事情其實我們都有行文給內政部了，他們現在的那個官司在進行，就是我們跟內政部行文之後，他們也制止了它的文件驗證等等的這些作法，後續是因為這個阿拉伯商務協會去提告說，這三個駐臺的毀謗……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長你看，有行文啦！不是沒有處理！"],["賀司長忠義：這是在部長到任之前就已經處理了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我提醒外交部，強度不夠嘛！但是嚴重影響……"],["賀司長忠義：我們持續跟內政部一直在溝通當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：這有可能影響邦誼，是一件大事啊！部長、司長，該強硬就強硬，這個嚴重影響我們的外交狀況，應該請內政部嚴肅處理啊！難道不應該嗎？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！就是如果有違反登記的目的，去執行不是屬於法定的業務，這當然就要查辦。"],["牛委員煦庭：明確了就要查辦，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：早講就好！"],["林部長佳龍：只是因為後來他們去提告嘛！這個過程我剛剛講的，有關這些駐臺代表或者是他們辦事處相關的外交權益，我們要去維護，這個部分我們最後……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個到最後一定是外交部跟內政部要跨部協商，外交部要強硬一點，因為這會影響邦誼，沙烏地阿拉伯跟我們的感情其實是滿不錯的，即便名稱被人家矮化，但人家就是大使銜，對不對？難得的邦誼，不要因為這樣子的詐騙集團被影響，到時候大家跨部協調，外交部要強硬一點，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定是依法來執行，然後捍衛我們駐臺代表處的權益。"],["牛委員煦庭：要捍衛我們的邦誼，好不好？辛苦了，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，部長請回。接下來我們請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f00647c23dc53e6281f6b87f55f7374071398f8787296810fc6869bf68ab9a87a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"12:06:31 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法漏洞補起來這完全沒有漢格啊!"},{"start":463.806,"end":489.364,"text":"所以我不曉得這個司法委員你為什麼一直強調說會自愛難行呢?那就盡速請總統提名一批新的大法官,適才適任的大法官進來嘛我想這才是我們立法委員應該做到立法院監督制衡的一個責任所有的這些沒有這個學術專才的也可以當大法官"},{"start":491.397,"end":513.539,"text":"我想秘書長、副秘書長你一定也反對大多數我們學法律的人我們所有的法律學者也好法律專家也好或者法律人一定反對這種沒有學術專精的人也可以當大法官那對基層的這些法官或者檢察官是多麼的諷刺啊大家這麼認真這麼努力"},{"start":515.684,"end":524.077,"text":"對我們的法律做出貢獻但是一個完全對法律可以說非常外行的人他可以當大法官我們可以讓他通過"},{"start":525.728,"end":525.928,"text":"這才是正軌啦"},{"start":555.543,"end":555.663,"text":"以上,謝謝!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（12時6分）謝謝主席，我們請秘書長。秘書長，請教……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好，我現在是副秘書長。"],["林委員思銘：副秘書長，你不是代理嗎？OK。憲法增修條文第十二條法定修憲門檻，就是立法院全體立法委員四分之一的提案、四分之三的出席，及出席委員四分之三的決議。同樣的道理，我們現在大法官的現有總額定義為憲法增修條文第五條所規定的就是15位，所以我們為了避免削弱裁判的多元性、公正性、專業性和公信力，我們對現有的憲法訴訟法漏未規定大法官現有總額的定義，僅規定剛才鍾佳濱委員講的憲法訴訟法第十二條迴避的大法官，它有規定不計入現有總額的人數。所以恐怕會出現，如果總統提名的大法官沒有經過立法院的同意審查通過，可能就會出現只有3、4位的大法官來做出裁判，這樣子的一個疑慮，這是一個疑慮而已，我們說不是一定。","所以這種情況之下，我們就是現在要預做法律的修補，把這個漏洞補起來，如果萬一真的發生這種狀況，我們是不是要讓我們憲法法庭的組成，必須達到一定、多元的一個人數？讓做出來的裁判才更具多元性，才更能夠實踐我們實質的一個正義，才不會有3、4個人幾個狹隘的觀點來對我們的憲法做出裁判。副秘書長，你贊同嗎？我們為了避免少數的、不具多元的、狹隘的觀點，做出我們的憲法的裁判，因此來做這種修法，您贊成嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["林委員思銘：我先大方向問你，你不用跟我講說什麼因為政治計算怎麼樣……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：以往其實也並沒有這種情形，以少數的大法官就可以去決定一個重要的國家價值，大概目前和以前都沒有。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：假設今天委員們認為應該要達到一定的大法官的人數才能夠，其實討論的過程是不是要去變動所謂現有總額的涵義，因為這個現有總額的涵義向來都已經有，要不要去這樣子定，我覺得還有再深思的餘地啦！"],["林委員思銘：是，副秘書長，你剛才也提到，過去很少發生所謂這種極端判決的情況，就少數幾個大法官來決定我們憲法訴訟的裁判或者釋憲案，很少嘛，或者沒有……但是我們就擔心會有這種情況發生，我剛一直講，有這種情況發生的疑慮啊！所以我們把這個立法漏洞修補起來，讓它很明確的法制化，未來憲法法庭的組成，一定要有法定15位的三分之二來出席，才能夠做成它的憲法裁判，這個方向您贊成嗎？用多數的意見來做成憲法的裁判，您贊成嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，多數意見做成裁判本身，跟要法定，將現有總額變成法定總額，我們司法院是認為這中間沒有當然的必然關係啦！而且現有總額定成是法定總額的話，剛才跟各位委員報告，會產生一些窒礙難行的情形，而且現在繫屬的案件、受理的案件……"],["林委員思銘：副秘書長，怎麼會沒有必然的關係呢？我剛才已經跟你提到，萬一有這種情況發生，極有可能發生，總統提名的大法官，因為他不具專業性，然後不夠中立、怠忽民意，完全輕忽民意，有這種情況會發生，所以被提名人沒有經過立法院來審查通過，會有這種情況發生啊！怎麼會沒有必然關聯性呢？所以我們要把這種萬一的情況設想進去，今天趕快來立法補這個漏洞，讓它符合您剛才講的，過去我們所有的憲法裁判都是必須要達到大概10位左右的大法官，來做成一個裁判或者解釋，所以怎麼會沒有必然性呢？我聽不懂你講的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，就是不見得要用修法定總額的現有總額這種定義的方式。"],["林委員思銘：好，那我問你，這種漏洞，萬一出現這種情況，怎麼樣來補這個漏洞？萬一出現的話？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然很多的國家假設續任的大法官沒有順利產生或者有缺位的情形的話，現任的大法官可以繼續到新任的大法官任期就任為止，這一種制度很多國家有……"],["林委員思銘：但是依照我們現行的，我們的法律就沒有這樣的規定嘛！所以我才會講如果我們用這種方式來修法的話，實際上就能夠達到真的實踐……大法官、憲法法庭的組成一定要有多數的、多元的觀點，我們才能夠達到這個立法的目的啊！當然，你可以用其他方式，你剛才講的也是一種方式，我贊成啦，但是以目前這種情況的話，我們還是必須修法及時來補這個漏洞，不要有政治的算計，你一直講會窒礙難行，我實在聽不懂。","我請問一下，為什麼我們憲法要設計大法官被提名人要經過立法院的同意？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然大法官一定是……"],["林委員思銘：這憲政的設計嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：所有的立法委員、代表民意的，大家可以認同的人，然後他才適合當任。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我剛一直講，大法官一定要學術專精，一定要超然獨立，一定要重視民意，一定要操守非常的好嘛，如果總統提名的被提名人，我們審視的結果、審查的結果，他完全不符合這些要件，我們還要讓他通過嗎？這樣我們愧對民意耶！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大院審查大法官的適任性是大院的職權。"],["林委員思銘：所以我才講嘛，既然會有這種情況，可能發生嘛，所以我們要及時補這個漏洞啊！所以司法院，你現在一直認為我們行使審查同意的時候，現在就是因為我們執政黨跟在野黨，對於現在被提名的人，我們有我們初步的一個看法跟意見嘛，至於未來審查會不會通過，當然還不一定，但是至少我們現在看起來，我們有很多在之前就有發表一些看法，所以這時候是不是總統，如果假設出現這種情況，我就問你，那總統要怎麼做？假設被提名人被立法院否決之後，總統要怎麼做？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然這是總統的職權，所以總統是不是重新提名……"],["林委員思銘：所以總統是不是要儘速再提名一批新的大法官進到我們立法院來審查嘛？就是這樣運作嘛，跟我們現在修憲法訴訟法，把我們的立法漏洞補起來，這完全沒有扞格啊！所以我不曉得司法院，你為什麼一直強調說會窒礙難行呢？那就儘速請總統提名一批新的大法官，適才適任的大法官進來嘛，我想這才是我們立法委員應該做到立法院監督制衡的一個責任啦。所有的這些，連沒有學術專才的人，也可以當大法官，我想副秘書長你一定也反對，大多數我們學法律的人，我們所有的法律學者也好，法律專家也好，或者法律人一定反對，這種沒有學術專精的人也可以當大法官喔！那對基層的這些法官或者檢察官是多麼的諷刺啊，大家這麼認真、這麼努力，對我們的法律做出貢獻，但是一個完全對法律可以說非常外行的人，他可以當大法官喔，我們可以讓他通過喔？我想絕對不行啦，我想你一定贊成這個觀點。所以我們還是希望，如果假設萬一這些被提名人沒有被通過的話，請總統應該儘速提名新的人進來，這樣我們的憲政運作就不會有所謂窒礙難行之處，有什麼會影響我們司法院大法官的憲法訴訟，對於案件進行審理的這樣一個情形存在，這才是正軌啦！以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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那我請教一下那如果憲法法庭竟然要保障人民的權利那有沒有保障我們基層公務員你認為有沒有當然也包含基層公務員包含基層公務員好 我們看一下113年憲判第6號保障人民應考警消的權利去年憲判第15號保障公務員勤領慰問金所以如果台灣憲法法庭不只會阻礙人民救濟也侵害了公務員的權益你是不是認同"},{"start":142.691,"end":163.77,"text":"憲法訴訟法不是由來已久了,它是107年才通過。大法官解釋憲法程序的嚴格,民國37年是司法院大法官會議規則。47年開始有了大法官會議法。"},{"start":164.744,"end":190.854,"text":"到了82年大法官審理案件法這當中到82年之前這些法律都是由國民黨擔任總統國民黨或有國會絕對都是有通過的所以你認為這樣的一個程序有變成是一黨一派之私嗎還是那時候的國會所通過的這些法案能夠兼顧或尊重到司法院大法官釋憲的精神跟他的權責"},{"start":192.074,"end":220.8,"text":"你覺得他是一黨一派決定的還是有體現了大法官視線的尊重他的獨立視線的權責是前者還後者跟委員報告我想擔任大法官的他不應該我是說這些法條都是國民黨的總統國民黨控制的國會通過的你覺得他是一黨一派嗎還是他覺得至少尊重了司法院獨立做憲法解釋的精神我想大法官擔任以後不會去考慮黨派應該是你還是誤會我的意思這些法條"},{"start":221.92,"end":223.923,"text":"一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":239.964,"end":257.575,"text":"這個問題到底是現有總和法定總和由來已久在我們當初從大法官會議法要過渡到大法官審理案件法的時候第13條那時候寫大法官總和過半數民國八十一年審查的時候請問一下那時候秘書長是不是叫王嘉穎那時候的王新邦立法委員是不是國民黨籍的不知道那時候都是國民黨的啦"},{"start":263.134,"end":282.299,"text":"好這裡呢從總額過半變成現有總額過半我們看下一頁怎麼來的當時的討論呢是國民黨的委員王新邦問王嘉儀秘書長他說欸你們這個總額怎麼算的他說是以現有人數計算和以前的立法院一樣那時候總額是17位假如總統通過13名17位就會發生問題"},{"start":285.76,"end":300.919,"text":"所以王新邦就說那會不會因為總額兩個字有歧義到底是什麼總額產生困難王秘書長說現在的解釋就是現有的意思啊所以國民黨委員說那邊修改明確一下比較好他說那如果你修改成現有人數我也不反對啦"},{"start":301.48,"end":325.232,"text":"所以最後結果是什麼?最後結果從大法官會議法變成大法官審理案件法的時候呢那時候的國民黨是這幾位委員民進黨只有一位陳委員主席經過協商之後把大法官總額加上現有兩個字沒有意義沒有哪黨哪派去打他去影響他所以82年通過的大審法就是把總額改成現有總額你老姊同意嗎?"},{"start":326.232,"end":327.072,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":349.079,"end":366.988,"text":"立法委員在臨時會的69條跟修憲的時候174條都是寫立法委員前條寫初期立法委員的幾分之幾後條寫立法委員的幾分之幾你覺得那時候的立法委員是以多少額數來算初期立法委員很清楚立法委員是以多少額數來算"},{"start":370.511,"end":387.209,"text":"時間到後來憲法徵修條文的時候為了避免這個歧義就寫全體立法委員那時候全體立法委員在徵修條文裡面有幾個權力罷免總統對行政院的法律案復議對行政院提出不信任案變更領土彈劾都是要全體立法委員"},{"start":389.53,"end":407.135,"text":"立法委員執行司法全體立法委員分別在第二至一章到第四章到第四至一章一共五個章節國情報告人事同意權復議不信任彈劾跟罷免這六個權利在行使的時候都必須以全體立法委員為總額那你同意嗎這是事實嘛"},{"start":408.795,"end":434.974,"text":"但是呢我們立法委員諮詢審查為了定義什麼要全體立法委員在88年的時候國民黨全面執政的時候通過了第四條總額三分之一以上指的開會而總額是什麼規定呢以每會期的實際報導人數扣掉辭職、去職跟頑固很清楚立法院自己在對自己的全體立法院的解釋總額怎麼定他自己的諮詢審查寫得清清楚明明白白你也認同嗎"},{"start":436.653,"end":463.175,"text":"不只認同你們的後來的規則呢都放進去了我們看下一頁你們現在呢這個國民黨立法委員呢現在修什麼修立法委員總和就不修你們第四條是修什麼修司法院大法官是現有總和你們的現有總和是指大法官的人數那請問一下請問一下目前憲法訴訟法當中有沒有提到立法委員的條文"},{"start":473.36,"end":492.005,"text":"立法委員可以提出釋憲對不對但是呢有額數的限制所以我們看一下齁當時你們的法庭審理規則第56條全盤照抄就是把立法院的職員刑事法裡面的規定是以立法院限額總額扣掉辭職去職員死亡而且以每會期的實際暴露人數"},{"start":493.728,"end":516.471,"text":"憲法訴訟條文現在立法院的總額是多少?是不是113人?結果立法委員自己要在憲法訴訟法行使職權的時候沒有用113人的算喔!是用現有的來算喔!但是大法官要事先決定人民的權益的時候呢卻要用憲法的規定來算,雙標啦!我們來看一下下一頁,給大家看一下齁"},{"start":518.075,"end":531.522,"text":"司法院大法官會議審議法第五條過去是怎樣?立法委員縣有總和三分之一就可以提出申請,是不是這樣?這是過去的規定嘛,是不是?而且你們的私信記者還寫什麼?每會期實際報導人數為準啊。"},{"start":535.302,"end":555.324,"text":"在第九屆立法院的時候國民黨的人數未達三分之一啊所以當時國民黨提出釋憲還要找五黨籍的高精素美委員才能提出釋憲申請你有印象嗎有沒有受理過國民黨的委員加上高精委員湊足的三分之一請求釋憲有沒有"},{"start":557.989,"end":572.628,"text":"所以為了考慮到少數黨的立法委員也能夠提出四憲案那時候本席就提出了什麼提出了說把憲法總和從三分之一降到了四分之一"},{"start":573.737,"end":595.175,"text":"其實我們說一個法條是不是反映一黨一派之私就要看不應當時他是多數黨還是少數黨來決定要依著我們怎麼樣的法條制定能夠彰顯出主權在民民主政治的精神而定所以我們看一下當時本席要提出上一章"},{"start":596.316,"end":599.518,"text":"司法院自己的規則完全follow 立法院自己職權心事的規定,他就跟著規定,你認為這樣有沒有尊重立法院?"},{"start":618.823,"end":633.94,"text":"司法院有沒有尊重立法院應該是有因為憲法總委的解釋一向如此一向如此所以司法院也是尊重立法院自己的決定你們的規則就照抄這就是憲法機關相互尊重尊重各自獨立的權限的一個精神的體現下一頁"},{"start":635.066,"end":650.327,"text":"所以我們來看一下我們看到了施行日期為什麼要緩衝在107年大法官案件審理法的時候第九十五條說明因為攸關各機關人民的申請所以必須要公佈三年後施行是不是這樣的意思"},{"start":651.556,"end":653.817,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期"},{"start":670.302,"end":690.195,"text":"因為憲法訴訟法通過之後因為還有相關的這些審理細則這些執法規定要去定那些的時程可能是要司法院掌握的所以才這個實施的日期由司法院定之好所以我們看看翁委員的提案要求公佈後就實施法律的事情點向一頁法律的事情點往上"},{"start":692.351,"end":708.302,"text":"道交條例執行複雜由行政機關執定各部位組織法要配合主改的時程人民團體法配合民法大修施行日期貼合民法所有法律的施行日期都有各別不同的考量沒有全部都是公告之律實施的"},{"start":712.264,"end":727.985,"text":"本席要在這裡主席也站起來了吼目前來為所提的憲法訴訟第九十五條的修正草案至公佈入實施啊這個其實呢會造成很多對人民的衝擊不顧及民眾準備充足的時間來申請的權益你覺得有沒有這個顧慮"},{"start":729.824,"end":749.09,"text":"委員報告因為現在已經公告受理的我們也擔心說立刻實施的時候那麼這已經公告受理的案件也沒有辦法進入最後對不起主席最後就是關於迴避的問題雖然這個迴避剛剛我們羅志祥委員提到了他說如果迴避的話你舉那個例子我仔細去講15個人6個人因為成台大任教只剩9個人參與懲判"},{"start":750.37,"end":779.315,"text":"所以國民黨的修法意旨說不可以出現少數來決定所以呢你們提出了第30條跟43條目前這兩條是近乎二讀嘛主席是不是這樣子是近乎二讀嘛好那如果你把總額改成法定總額就不會發生因迴避人數過多而有少數到法院決定嗎我們來看一下最後一頁了最後一頁了法定總額你把憲法總額改成法定總額不只雙標你沒有看看自己的我們的憲法訴訟法裡面的49條立法委員提出事先申請"},{"start":780.015,"end":783.658,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十一條條文要申請迴避怎樣?"},{"start":783.658,"end":785.96,"text":"要其他大法官過半數啊?"},{"start":800.635,"end":821.893,"text":"其他大法官是多少?請問你知道這個額數嗎?如果修法之後其他大法官是多少額數?因為知道其他大法官多少人我才能確定過半數嗎?如果要用法定額數的話第12條依本法迴避這大法官不記錄現有總額現有總額不記錄由其他大法官的現有大法官過半數來同意就可以了"},{"start":822.654,"end":847.166,"text":"但是如果改成法定總額呢?憲法訴訟法第12條也在翁委員第4條的修正範圍內。法定總額是沒有辦法用迴避的方式來扣除的啦!既然叫法定,什麼法?憲法!憲法訴訟條文幾席?15席!15席的法定總額能夠扣掉迴避的大法官嗎?不行!所以我這裡做個結論齁!"},{"start":849.332,"end":853.616,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案（事由．併案審查��"},{"start":869.492,"end":869.512,"text":"鍾佳濱"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時51分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。修法過程我們有問題想請教一下司法院的黃副秘書長。主席，想請教黃副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黃副秘你好。我的標題是「癱瘓憲法法庭人民救濟無門，總額認定雙標施行日不顧民」，前面這一段你剛剛大概也講了。請問一下聲請釋憲案，機關、立法委員、法院跟人民這四者都可以提出，以目前為止你所知道的，誰的比例最高？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，目前聲請這些釋憲，98%以上都是人民聲請，絕大部分涉及到人民的基本權利。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。其實外界可能有個誤解，以為這次藍白合作要針對司法院、針對憲法訴訟法來下手，是因為對大法官不滿，對憲法法庭凍結他們上個會期的國會擴權案有所不滿，以為憲法法庭好像專門在跟立法院國會的多數作對，其實不然。我們看到這個統計，憲法法庭受理的案子絕大部分是人民，不管是舊制時期還是新制時期，94%到98%都是以人民申請最高。所以我看到昨天的報紙說，目前藍委提案提高釋憲判決的門檻，遇到大法官的提名任命懸而未決，致人數不足額，低於10人的時候就無法評議、無法裁判，不能執行釋憲職責的嚴重結果，就是傷到人民尋求權利救濟，是不是這樣？我請教一下，憲法法庭既然要保障人民的權利，那有沒有保障我們基層公務員，你認為有沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然也包含基層公務員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們看一下113年憲判第6號保障人民應考警消的權利，去年憲判第15號保障公務員請領慰問金，所以如果癱瘓憲法法庭，不只會阻礙人民救濟，也侵害了公務員的權益，你是不是認同？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該是這個樣子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們來看，其實憲法訴訟法不是由來已久，它是107年才通過的，我們看過去大法官解釋憲法程序的沿革，民國37年是司法院大法官會議規則，47年開始有了大法官會議法，到了82年大法官審理案件法，這當中到82年之前，這些法律都是由國民黨擔任總統、國民黨握有國會絕對多數的時候通過的，所以你認為這樣的程序，有變成是一黨一派之私嗎？還是那時候的國會所通過的這些法案，能夠兼顧或尊重到司法院大法官釋憲的精神跟他的權責？你覺得它是一黨一派決定的，還是有體現尊重大法官獨立釋憲的權責？是前者還是後者？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想擔任大法官的，他不應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說這些法條都是國民黨的總統、國民黨控制的國會通過的，你覺得它是一黨一派嗎？還是覺得至少尊重了司法院獨立做憲法解釋的精神？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想大法官擔任以後，不會去考慮黨派啦！應該是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你還是誤會我的意思了，這些法條難道是有一黨一派的決定，讓大法官要聽國民黨的嗎？不會吧！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會，好，很好。我們來看一下馬英九時期，到了104年的時候，全部的大法官都是他任命的；到了107年蔡英文前總統的時候，才有憲法訴訟法的制定。我們來看一下，這個問題到底是現有總額、法定總額，由來已久，在我們當初從大法官會議法要過渡到大法官審理案件法的時候，第十三條那時候寫大法官總額過半數，民國81年審查的時候，請問一下，那時候秘書長是不是叫王甲乙？那時候的黃興邦立法委員是不是國民黨籍的？不知道？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那時候……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候都是國民黨的啦！這裡從總額過半變成現有總額過半，我們看下一頁怎麼來的，當時的討論是國民黨的委員黃興邦問王甲乙秘書長說這個總額怎麼算的？他說是以現有人數計算，和以前的立法院一樣，那時候總額是17位，假如總統通過13名，17位就會發生問題。所以黃興邦就說，會不會因為總額兩個字有歧異，到底是什麼總額產生困難？王秘書長說現在的解釋就是現有的意思，所以國民黨委員說那能不能修改明確一下比較好？他說如果你修改成現有人數，我也不反對。","所以最後結果是什麼？最後結果從大法官會議法變成大法官審理案件法的時候，那時候的國民黨是這幾位委員，民進黨只有1位陳委員，主席經過協商之後，把大法官總額加上「現有」兩個字，沒有異議，沒有哪黨哪派去打他、去影響他，所以82年通過的大審法就是把總額改成現有總額，你了解、同意嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：同意對不對？就現有總額，所以我們來看一下，我們憲法有沒有除了大法官之外，對於總額的討論？有的，就是對於立法委員，我修過憲，憲法本文當中有講到立法委員額數的只有3個條文，第五十七條覆議的時候要出席委員三分之一以上提議；立法委員在臨時會的時候第六十九條跟修憲的時候第一百七十四條，都是寫立法委員，前條寫出席立法委員的幾分之幾，後條寫立法委員的幾分之幾。你覺得那時候的立法委員是以多少額數來算？出席立法委員很清楚，那立法委員是以多少額數來算？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：實際報到人數……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是後來，憲法增修條文的時候為了避免這個歧義，就寫全體立法委員，那時候全體立法委員在增修條文裡面有幾個權力，罷免總統、對法律案覆議、對行政院提出不信任案、變更領土、彈劾，都是以全體立法委員；然後修憲的時候還是寫立法委員；到了立法委員職權行使法，就把全體立法委員分別在第二章之一、第四章到第七章之一，一共五個章節，國情報告、人事同意權、覆議、不信任、彈劾跟罷免，這6個權力在行使的時候都必須以全體立法委員為總額，你同意嘛！這是事實嘛！但是我們立法委員職權行使法為了定義什麼叫全體立法委員，在88年國民黨全面執政的時候通過了第四條，總額三分之一以上始得開會，而總額是什麼規定呢？以每會期的實際報到人數扣掉辭職、去職跟亡故，很清楚，立法院自己在對自己的全體立法委員的解釋、總額怎麼定，它自己的職權行使法寫得清清楚楚、明明白白，你也認同嘛！不只認同，你們後來的規則都放進去。","國民黨立法委員現在要修什麼？立法委員總額就不修？你們第四條是修什麼？修司法院大法官是現有總額，你們的現有總額是指大法官的人數。請問一下，目前憲法訴訟法當中，有沒有提到立法委員的條文？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：第……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三十九條。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我提醒你，第三十九條，立法委員可以提出釋憲對不對？但是有額數的限制，所以我們看一下，當時你們的法庭審理規則第五十六條全盤照抄，就是把立法院職權行使法裡面的規定，是以立法委員現有總額扣掉辭職、去職跟死亡，而且以每會期的實際報到人數。那憲法增修條文現在立法院的總額是多少？是不是113人？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果立法委員自己要在憲法訴訟法行使職權的時候，沒有用113人來算，是用現有的來算喔！但是大法官釋憲要決定人民權益的時候，卻要用憲法的規定來算，雙標啦！給大家看一下，司法院大法官會議審理法第五條過去是怎樣？立法委員現有總額三分之一就可以提出申請，是不是這樣？這是過去的規定嘛！是不是？而且你們的施行細則還寫什麼？每會期實際報到人數為準。在第9屆立法院的時候，國民黨的人數未達三分之一，所以當時國民黨提出釋憲，還要找無黨籍的高金素梅委員，才能提出釋憲申請，你有印象嗎？有沒有受理過國民黨的委員加上高金委員湊足了三分之一請求釋憲，有沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那時候我沒有機會參與。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有機會參與，好，我告訴你，我有參與到，所以為了考慮到少數黨的立法委員也能夠提出釋憲案，那時候本席就提出了什麼？提出把現有總額從三分之一降到了四分之一。其實我們說一個法條是不是反映一黨一派之私，就要看不因當時它是多數黨還是少數黨來決定，要依著我們怎麼樣的法條制定，能夠彰顯出主權在民、民主政治的精神而定。","所以我們看一下，當時本席就提出四分之一，我們憲法法庭審理規則第四十九條還是說什麼？說現有總額，所以完全是依照立法院職權行使法，司法院自己的規則完全follow立法院職權行使什麼規定，它就跟著規定，你認為這樣有沒有尊重立法院？司法院有沒有尊重立法院？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該是有，因為現有總額的解釋一向如此。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以司法院也是尊重立法院自己的決定，你們的規則就照抄，這就是憲法機關相互尊重、尊重各自獨立權限精神的體現。","所以我們來看一下，施行日期為什麼要緩衝？在107年大法官案件審議法，第九十五條說明因為攸關各機關人民的聲請，所以必須要公布三年後施行，是不是這樣的意思？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：施行日期是不是影響人民？所以當年就是三年後，後來112年修改，修改之後是怎樣？司法院以命令定之。為什麼那時候修改後不是三年，再次修改把門檻從三分之一降成四分之一，要司法院來命令定之？請說明。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為憲法訴訟法通過之後，還有相關的這些審理細則、這些子法的規定要去訂，那些的時程可能是要司法院掌握的，所以這個實施的日期才由司法院定之。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們剛才看翁委員的提案要求公布後就實施，法律的施行始點有哪些？道交條例，因為執行複雜，須由行政機關指定；各部會組織法，要配合組改的時程；人民團體法，配合民法大修，施行日期貼合民法，所有法律的施行日期都有個別不同的考量，沒有全部都是公告之日實施的。我們加速，主席也站起來了，所以目前所提的憲法訴訟法第九十五條的修正審查案，「自公布日實施」其實會造成很多對人民的衝擊，不顧及民眾準備充足時間來聲請的權益，你覺得有沒有這個顧慮？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為現在已經公告受理的，我們也擔心立刻實施的時候，這已經公告受理的案件也沒辦法進入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，對不起主席。最後就是關於迴避的問題，雖然迴避剛剛我們羅智強委員也提到了，他舉的那個例子，我仔細去講，如果迴避的話，15個人中有6個人因為曾在臺大任教，只剩9人參與懲辦，所以國民黨的修法意旨說不可以出現少數來決定，所以你們提出的第三十條跟第四十三條，目前這兩條是逕付二讀嘛，主席是不是這樣子？逕付二讀嘛！好，如果你把總額改成法定總額，就不會發生因迴避人數過多而由少數大法官決定嗎？我們來看最後一頁，你把現有總額改成法定總額，不只雙標，你沒有看看我們憲法訴訟法裡面的第四十九條，立法委員提釋憲聲請要四分之一，四分之一是什麼？現有人數耶！你大法官就要有法定總額，遇到自己立法委員要提出釋憲聲請，四分之一即以現有人數來算，而且憲法訴訟法第十一條要聲請迴避是要其他大法官過半數啊！其他大法官是多少？請問你知道這額數嗎？如果修法之後，其他大法官是多少額數？因為知道其他有多少人，我才能確定過半數嘛！如果要用法定額數的話，第十二條「依本法迴避之大法官，不計入現有總額之人數」，也就是現有總額不計入，由其他現有憲法法庭大法官過半數來同意就可以了，但是如果改成法定總額呢，憲法訴訟法第十二條也在翁委員第四條的修正範圍內……"],["主席：鍾召委，時間到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，法定總額是沒有辦法用迴避的方式來扣除的啦！既然叫法定，什麼法？是憲法。憲法增修條文幾席？15席，15席的法定總額能夠扣掉迴避的大法官嗎？不行。所以我這裡做個結論，這樣一個倉促的修法，擺明了只是對大法官最近所做國會職權的結果可能不樂觀，而表達的一種杯葛跟反應，實質上完全沒有一個法條的法理，不完備。"],["主席：鍾召委，時間到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現有員額，你違背了所有的憲法本文、增修條文、各種法律它的精神，你硬是要用法定員額，全中華民國的法律就是這一個是用法定員額，通過之後還漏掉了迴避的規定，現有總額改成法定總額，你怎麼迴避？這一點我們以後再來討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾召委。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們下一位請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T11:43:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T11:54:52+08:00","duration":668,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.215343750000002,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.93659375,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.90596875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":19.20096875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.344093750000003,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.039718750000002,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.32221875,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.735343750000002,"end":35.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.025343750000005,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.13909375,"end":41.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.52659375,"end":45.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.99846875,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.297843750000006,"end":63.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.852218750000006,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.33284375000001,"end":71.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.85096875,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.55346875000001,"end":94.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.44659375,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.50096875000001,"end":99.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.49221875,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.51721875000001,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.29721875000001,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.01846875000001,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.92971875,"end":116.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.40971875000001,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.09721875000001,"end":116.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.94096875000001,"end":116.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.95784375000001,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.02534375,"end":118.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.72971875,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.42971875,"end":121.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.14659375000001,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.97721875000002,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.52534375000002,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.98096875000002,"end":131.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.92596875,"end":131.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.99346875,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.02659375000002,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.08971875,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.12346875,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.16409375,"end":149.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.23534375,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.41971875000002,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.72409375,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.16971875000002,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.73471875,"end":195.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.74721875,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.68346875,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.56909375,"end":213.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.27596875,"end":218.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.10659375,"end":218.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.30909375000002,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.96721875,"end":227.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.04596875000001,"end":247.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.08971875,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.67159375000003,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.56534375,"end":252.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.63284375,"end":252.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.82596875,"end":258.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.85971875,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.16346875,"end":261.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.35284375000003,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.03596875,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270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領導你看 我都沒有就是說下次就是討論的時候公聽會要把這個有關這個地方制度法我已經排過一次了我可以再排一下我們直接我們不能一直在虛幻當中我們要往前推進我們把公聽會當中虛幻公聽會我們已經排過了我們已經聽過很多意見專家學的意見我們聽很多"},{"start":132.5,"end":132.94,"text":"請教一下次長跟主計長"},{"start":150.607,"end":168.737,"text":"這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的稅率會大幅減少大概4,080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應"},{"start":170.058,"end":197.287,"text":"那如果說這個政業黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健保還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎"},{"start":199.077,"end":217.939,"text":"現在是由中央來負擔,對。好,那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修,修到這個4000多位都讓這個中央,這個都讓地方政府拿去用了,那未來呢?屬於中央的部分,那剛我提到說這個建保的部分啊,有關這個老農津貼的部分,未來勒?"},{"start":219,"end":244.64,"text":"所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加4出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用"},{"start":245.16,"end":259.895,"text":"所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權同意嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮了我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒還是中央出嗎?"},{"start":266.742,"end":274.471,"text":"中央的財政韌性就受到影響了,你被挖走了4千億,那你還要再撥補這麼多進去,那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外"},{"start":286.004,"end":312.953,"text":"中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒?"},{"start":313.8,"end":328.844,"text":"至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話"},{"start":331.389,"end":346.313,"text":"因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助"},{"start":346.733,"end":375.535,"text":"那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看這個設宅的專案計畫中央有補助"},{"start":376.391,"end":397.739,"text":"少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費"},{"start":399.039,"end":418.886,"text":"中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北、台北、台中、高雄要蓋這些軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出?"},{"start":424.42,"end":452.939,"text":"其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上"},{"start":454.86,"end":467.046,"text":"對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配"},{"start":468.391,"end":488.045,"text":"如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9千億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3千多億剩下3千多億"},{"start":489.181,"end":507.226,"text":"剩下3000多億那我們平常平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以對於調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對於中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災"},{"start":508.306,"end":527.726,"text":"有什麼戰爭有什麼樣的國際情勢大的轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種這個從這個中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種"},{"start":529.568,"end":537.505,"text":"這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎"},{"start":541.341,"end":565.478,"text":"跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政"},{"start":566.578,"end":582.672,"text":"所以不管說中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的"},{"start":583.237,"end":602.209,"text":"因為我們對岸有一個中國啊,隨時要武力要恐惡台灣啊,軍機軍艦要來擾台啊,我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費,但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分,那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話,"},{"start":605.311,"end":627.908,"text":"萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分"},{"start":628.949,"end":653.826,"text":"大家再來做討論有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好是謝謝委員"},{"start":655.996,"end":667.072,"text":"謝謝李昆城委員喔那你不要拖罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財化法嘛"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":481,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時43分）謝謝主席，我們請財政部阮次長還有主計處陳主計長。"],["主席：阮次長、陳主計長，有請。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。我還是要重申，我們現在應該要來審明年度（114年）的總預算，結果我們還是在這邊討論財劃法要怎麼弄。我剛剛也用了一個比喻，很多地方政府明年、明天的飯、米飯在哪裡都還不知道，然後我們在野黨許諾說只要財劃法通過了，未來一定有山珍海味，明天都不知道能不能吃飽了，你就說我們之後一定會有山珍海味給大家，這對於很多地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的。所以我還是重申，第一個，既然錢跟權要一併來討論，我沒有說內政部來的人層次太低，那都是主席在講的，我是說希望未來在討論事權的時候，地方制度法非常重要，所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來，因為地方制度法是跟財劃法相關的，不是只有修我們財劃法，然後地方制度法都沒有在修。主席有沒有聽到？你看我都沒有……就是說下次討論的時候，公聽會要把有關地方制度法……"],["主席：公聽會賴召委會排啦，你們黨團會排。"],["李委員坤城：對啦，賴召委會排，希望……"],["主席：我已經排過一次了，羅召委也排過……"],["李委員坤城：還可以再排啊！"],["主席：我們不能一直在虛幻當中，我們要往前……"],["李委員坤城：怎麼會把公聽會當作虛幻？"],["主席：沒有，公聽會我們已經排過了，我們已經聽過很多意見……"],["李委員坤城：公聽會有很多的學者來……"],["主席：專家學者的意見我們聽很多，賴召委要排我沒有意見……"],["李委員坤城：學者講話怎麼把它當作虛幻？"],["主席：我們要聽委員的意見，希望委員多多發表。"],["李委員坤城：學者講話……"],["主席：進入逐條討論，委員要充分發表意見，你也來聽聽官員的意見吧！"],["李委員坤城：大部分的學者都表示事權要來統一啊……"],["主席：好，你來聽聽官員……"],["李委員坤城：這是我的時間。我要請教一下次長跟主計長，如果按照國民黨的版本，修法之後中央的歲入會大幅減少大概4,080億，然後為了嚴守財政紀律，中央的舉債也不應該再增加，所以只能同額縮短歲出的規模來因應，好啦！如果在野黨要了這麼多錢說要回到地方，那我先請教一下，對於中央的影響會怎麼樣？因為有很多在精省之後是屬於地方應該付的，結果中央拿來付了。剛剛蔡易餘委員也有提到，不管是勞健保還有老農津貼，請問一下，現在這個是由中央來付的嗎？"],["阮次長清華：現在是由中央來負擔。"],["李委員坤城：如果按照國民黨的版本一修修到四千多億都讓地方政府拿去用了，未來屬於中央的部分，剛剛我提到勞健保的部分、有關老農津貼的部分呢？"],["阮次長清華：所以我跟委員報告，剛才我也提到，我們明年的總預算是3.1兆，如果是按照國民黨版，等於增加釋出4,080億的話，那中央還要額外補給它9,492億，換句話說中央只剩下三千六百多億可以用……"],["李委員坤城：是啊！"],["阮次長清華：這根本就沒辦法支應……"],["李委員坤城：所以還要再繼續補嗎？我的意思是說，事跟權統一嘛，有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，所以一定要考慮到事權，就是錢權要同時考慮，不然……"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以我剛才舉那兩個經費的話，那未來呢？還是中央出嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是啊，所以將來一定錢跟權要同時來考慮。"],["李委員坤城：這樣中央的財政韌性就受到影響啦！你被挖走了4,000億，你還要再撥補這麼多進去！那我再問你，除了我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外，中央有很多的計畫，比如擴大租金補貼、興辦社宅的專案計畫有400億，那未來呢？這400億還是中央出嗎？全部都由中央出嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這些都受到影響，必須要去刪減，刪減才有辦法符合這個規範。"],["李委員坤城：好，那比如說有關社宅，400億大概會刪減到多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：至少要三成，刪減三成。"],["李委員坤城：至少刪減三成？那地方政府到底會拿得比修法前多還是比修法前少？我說就社宅的專案補助來講的話。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為現在社宅每一個縣市都不一樣，所以必須要每一個縣市去精算。現在像計畫型比較著重在直轄市，一般縣市補助比較著重在對縣市的補助，如果縣市統籌分配稅款增加了4,080億，但是又要求補助縣市的部分維持不動，那這個部分對中央影響就很大，為什麼？等於縣市的財源又再加上……double，所以變成這樣往上堆高，可是這樣對中央影響真的很大，中央就會籌編不出預算，以上。"],["李委員坤城：好了啊！你看，社宅的專案計畫，中央有補助；少子化對策方案，中央補助了290億。然後還有關於地方的，像我們新北的軌道建設，軌道建設本來有特別預算，那特別預算在明年結束之後，未來有關於軌道建設的經費，中央還要出嗎？還是就是地方？像新北，現在每年可以跟中央來要軌道的預算，如果未來這個四千多億都回歸到地方的話，現在比如像新北、臺北、臺中、高雄也要蓋這一些軌道建設、要蓋這些捷運的話，這些錢誰來出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實在前瞻計畫裡面，軌道建設的部分，前瞻計畫總共還有四千七百多億還沒編，裡面的軌道建設將近兩千九百多億，這是屬於縣市的部分，這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助，因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2,911億，這個部分也是跟縣市有關係，按照道理都應該要刪減，以上。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒辦法。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！如果按照這樣修法之後，中央大概剩下多少預算可以來調整分配？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果依剛剛講的，三兆一扣掉一般性法律義務的一兆八，大概剩下一兆二左右，一兆二左右如果要扣9,000億來給縣市的話，只剩下三千多億。"],["李委員坤城：剩下三千多億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員坤城：那平常在中央有多少可以調控？你們現在剩下三千多億，還差了多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以這些調控的部分，我們就必須要刪減其他的，所以對於中央整個業務的影響真的很大，以上補充。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們不希望有什麼天災、有什麼戰爭、有什麼樣的國際情勢等大的轉變影響到臺灣，但是如果按照國民黨的版本只剩下三千多億，萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種從中國來的或是從世界其他地方來的，這一種不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣，中央未來有辦法、有這個錢去做相關的應對嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，如果只剩下三千多億的話，絕對是一定要再從計畫型的補助或者是其他的補助，扣回來，要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間。"],["李委員坤城：中央沒有錢，我不知道是不是在野黨也認為他們大概未來也很難在中央執政，所以他們不管中央到底有沒有錢、有沒有財政韌性，能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的變化。但是我認為一個國家，尤其像臺灣，維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的，因為我們對岸有一個中國，隨時要武力恐嚇臺灣，派軍機、軍艦來擾臺，我們維持最基本的國防預算、國防經費，還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分，如果沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓中央來統籌運用的話，萬一發生什麼事情，那該怎麼辦？那不是只有中央的事情，那是全臺灣的事情啊！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以今天審查財劃法，我再次重申，這個錢跟權要一起來討論，當然也有財政部要加油的地方，你們跟地方政府關於水平分配的部分，大家再來討論，有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識，但是有這麼多有歧異的地方，不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意，我覺得這部分再來討論，但是我還是認為，如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本財政韌性的話，修法修下去，對臺灣不會更好。"],["阮次長清華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員，你不要偷罵賴總統，他當立委的時候也一直要修……"],["李委員坤城：主席，你不要再評論了，好不好？"],["主席：我是說賴總統當立委時一直說可以修財劃法，他還不是一樣執政了嘛！我可以發表，我保持……這是我的看法，不等於你的看法。"],["李委員坤城：你不能特別扭曲我的話啊！"],["主席：我沒有扭曲你的話。"],["李委員坤城：主席評論又再來扭曲。"],["主席：主席當然可以評論，不要製造噪音……"],["李委員坤城：主席評論……"],["主席：主席可以……議事中立是議事程序的中立，不是表示我不能說話，好嗎？你們要去了解什麼叫議事中立。"],["李委員坤城：每個委員講的話你也要打分數嗎？"],["主席：我沒有打分數。","接著請賴士葆委員。"],["李委員坤城：那是不是每個委員講完話你都要……"],["主席：我可以有我的意見嘛！議事中立不表示不能說話，大家沒有當過主席，回去小學上課。"],["郭委員國文：你有本事就當韓國瑜啦！"],["主席：議事中立是指程序，每個人都有程序可以走。"],["李委員坤城：但也不能扭曲委員的話。"],["主席：好，還有，COVID-19相關預算是舉債的，大家要了解一下，不要說錯。","請賴士葆委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f04f22f0e5a19f3026d42df3203622d4e3398f8787296810fc630fbb5eb73e020a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:36:04 - 11:43:02","影片長度":"00:06:58","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少"},{"start":75.066,"end":98.306,"text":"到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把"},{"start":99.006,"end":127.105,"text":"國土計劃的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你"},{"start":128.22,"end":144.033,"text":"沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科語行政機關現在有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講"},{"start":145.194,"end":165.362,"text":"然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來"},{"start":166.762,"end":177.249,"text":"那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個立安內公財政收支劃分法什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問"},{"start":179.653,"end":206.147,"text":"對,農業部嘛所以這個我認為這個大學我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去這個在京省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在京省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作"},{"start":206.767,"end":219.779,"text":"這些屬於業務範圍的也都把他拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給他更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這些事權也應該要下放那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼"},{"start":224.123,"end":238.033,"text":"老榮津貼過去的暫行條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老榮津貼再加上這一個"},{"start":240.174,"end":260.599,"text":"衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話"},{"start":261.519,"end":280.496,"text":"是不是老容今天暫行條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言"},{"start":281.737,"end":289.121,"text":"我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我認為主席看這個可以,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛的討論上問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的"},{"start":303.987,"end":325.382,"text":"條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會的官方討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我們,我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。"},{"start":326.232,"end":334.857,"text":"沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎,不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言,我現在放屁我現在發言喔?你講完我就會回答了我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還想你講後面委員的權利,但是沒關係,如果其他,下一場委員,有意見喔?"},{"start":351.401,"end":373.289,"text":"蔡委員我先回答您說的我現在不是說我也不想影響到大家的權利我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言會有二次發言財政部各部會官要注意喔如果下午有什麼會議的話晚上有什麼會議的話記得要排開喔要準備晚餐喔我們今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言嘛然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的"},{"start":378.17,"end":388.076,"text":"問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題所以我們就是等一下往還是要會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點喔沒關西阿我們就這樣說好了阿這樣可以了齁謝謝"},{"start":398.681,"end":399.001,"text":"財政部要記得"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時35分）好，謝謝主席。我沒有要請我們的部會，因為我想再跟主席確認一下，主席所說的「暢所欲言」這四個字代表的意義。現在是廣泛討論，我認為現在財劃法有一個很大的問題，就是我們在談水平分配的時候，事實上剛剛已經有多位立委，包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法，甚至還有屬於稅法的一個部分，所以其牽涉的層面是很多的。包括我自己有一個版本，我的版本是跟國土計畫有點連動，我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到農地農用，因為農地農用勢必會壓縮到地方未來可以發展的空間，在這個發展空間被壓縮的情況之下，每一個地方未來會有多少農地，針對其農地的部分去給它統籌分配上的一些加權，這個是我的一個主張。但是目前為止，我在這一次發言的時候，我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少，到底新北跟桃園、跟嘉義、雲林、臺南，未來它所涉及的農一、農二，或者是國保一、國保二，它的比例是多少，我們不知道！也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案，可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的答案，因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市沒有把國土計畫未來的細部分區表提出來，所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊。","在一個一個連動之下，變成我們今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候，就會有一個缺陷，因為我們要討論未來農地農用跟地方政府負擔著糧食安全的對應，它能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候，哇！沒有數據！所以我覺得我們應該要課以行政機關一個很大的任務，他們目前有八十幾樣的指標，按照這樣說起來，目前只有五個指標是有共識的，其他都還沒有共識，這部分就要大家來討論，包括人口、包括面積、包括我剛剛講的農地比例，包括地方產業造成污染的比例，包括地方如果發展綠能它應該要有多少的比例，所以照這樣說起來，也不是只有財政部，你看有內政部，如果有涉及污染，環境部也應該要來參與；如果涉及到我剛剛講的農地時，農業部也應該要參與。所以你說財政收支劃分法為什麼在水平分配這件事情上是一個大學問，我認為這是一個大學問，我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配。","垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰，但是在搶錢大戰的時候，也還有事權的問題。如果說過去在精省前，有很多業務可能當時是在省政府的層級，在精省之後把預算回歸到中央，同樣的也把這一些工作、這一些屬於業務範圍的部分都拉到了中央，未來如果我們要給地方更大的財政財源時，是不是對應的這一些事權也應該要下放？如果事權下放的話，我再舉一個老農津貼的例子，老農津貼過去的暫行條例是有說增加……我忘了是哪一年修的，但是它說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收。所以現在光看老農津貼再加上衛福部的關於健保的給付，中央這部分就吸收了一千多億，未來如果要把這些財政、財源下放的時候，是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的？好，那如果要回到這裡的話，是不是老農津貼暫行條例必須要連動地修法，是不是我們全民健保的相關法案也必須要去修法？所以這個有很多問題。","所以我只希望說，主席，我們今天廣泛討論，等一下我如果發言結束，是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言？主席看這個可以嗎？因為等一下我也會坐在這裡聽啊！等一下大家在廣泛討論的時候一定會問很多問題，既然有很多問題，我們就要再接下去問啊！所以我現在的感覺就是，按照這樣的程序，下次我們如果要進入逐條，到逐條的時候就要說條文文字的本身，而對於很多我需要的數據是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的，所以主席可以嗎？就是等一下廣泛討論就繼續讓它進行，大家暢所欲言，但是我們需要二次發言，所以這部分是不是我可以先有一個具體……主席你先……"],["主席：我可以回答嗎？你講完我就回答。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有，你要講一下，不然我還要再繼續講，因為我怕我沒有二次發言……"],["主席：因為5分鐘了，沒關係……"],["蔡委員易餘：我如果現在放棄我的權利，我剛剛才被……"],["主席：你講完我就會回答了。"],["蔡委員易餘：我講到結束喔？那我還要繼續講，所以我現在……"],["主席：會影響後面委員的權利，但是沒關係，如果其他在場委員有意見……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們要發言耶！"],["主席：不然沒關係，我來回答。蔡委員，我先回答您說的……"],["蔡委員易餘：主席，我現在就是說我也不想要影響到大家的權利，大家都有……"],["主席：好，沒關係，我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言，會有二次發言。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？"],["主席：財政部各部會官員要注意，如果下午有什麼會議的話、晚上有什麼會議的話，記得要排開，我們要準備晚餐喔！"],["蔡委員易餘：今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言，但是……"],["主席：沒問題，剛剛蔡委員所提到的……"],["蔡委員易餘：問題是很多的啊！"],["主席：好，OK，沒問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒問題，所以我們就是等一下完還是要……"],["主席：會、會、會，會有二次登記、三次登記，登記到晚上12點，沒關係。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，OK，我們就這樣說好了喔！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：不能像剛才程序發言把我趕下去。"],["主席：沒有，那是程序發言嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：我剛剛有點被誆的感覺耶。"],["主席：現在正式進入主題，沒問題、沒問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：那個感覺很差。現在你說三次、四次……"],["主席：沒問題，不會、不會，各位要有挑燈夜戰的心理準備。接著，剛剛蔡委員所提到的環境部，下回我們一定要……有邀請，今天有來，你下次發言也可以請他們上來詢問，內政部也有來，可以詢問，下次我們一定要邀請農業部過來，財政部要記得，今天開會名單你們沒有邀請農業部，還有內政部的官員至少是次長、部長，來的部會聽到了齁，相關的委員都有提出喔！包括內政部來的官員位階的問題，當然還有環境部、農業部。財政部要記得，我們下次邀請一定要邀請這些單位。好，還有哪個部會呢？"],["蔡委員易餘：我等一下再說。"],["主席：好，沒關係，好，OK，好，那地方制度法是內政部，財政部的公債法跟地方稅法都要趕快提出來喔！不要身為執政的，效率這麼差，我們要牽頭往前行。","好，接著我們請登記3號的李坤城委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahove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Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},{"id":"155822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f09ed3d8bdccb12c0cd42df3203622d4e3398f8787296810fc801c726672a5e8405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:25:24 - 11:35:55","影片長度":"00:10:31","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-21","start_time":"2024-10-21T11:25:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-21T11:35:55+08:00","duration":631,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.85784375,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.52409375,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.78409375,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.16346875,"end":53.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.351593750000006,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.23971875000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.19721875,"end":70.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.96909375,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.47096875,"end":96.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.55596875,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.93971875000001,"end":100.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.96034375,"end":105.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.33096875000001,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.39846875,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.28846875,"end":112.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.41846875,"end":183.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.58159375000001,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.24284375000002,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.34784375,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.64284375000003,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.02659375000002,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.13971875000001,"end":222.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.47284375,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.72721875000002,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.65534375000001,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.57284375,"end":265.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.16659375,"end":282.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.21034375,"end":284.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.11721875,"end":291.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.00221875,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.37096875000003,"end":335.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.75471875,"end":341.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.46284375000005,"end":342.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.18846875,"end":348.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.82034375,"end":387.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.49784375,"end":432.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.99284375,"end":498.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.39284375000005,"end":492.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.05846875000003,"end":502.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.24409375000005,"end":500.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.50096875,"end":502.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.04096875000005,"end":537.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.33096875,"end":565.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.49971875,"end":579.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.0090937500001,"end":572.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.2822187500001,"end":583.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.04159375,"end":581.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.1128437500001,"end":586.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.5047187499999,"end":591.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.02284375,"end":619.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.8003437500001,"end":613.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.60096875,"end":619.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.61346875,"end":619.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.90034375,"end":620.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.9678437499999,"end":621.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.97159375,"end":624.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.06409375,"end":626.4140937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.885,"end":15.281,"text":"是不是我們請卵次長。請財政部卵次長。次長,你好。喂,喂,好。"},{"start":16.243,"end":32.061,"text":"我請教因為莊部長當然去參加APEC由你來代理那財務法也經過三任的總統那也經過各政黨的人體啦那25年來都沒有修正"},{"start":33.263,"end":53.525,"text":"財委會其實也有要財政部在本會期開始的時候事前就要提出來他的草案結果到現在看不到行政院提出他修正的版本甚至於這個卓院長還在院會表示說現行法規的運作跟地方配合的很好"},{"start":55.066,"end":68.675,"text":"那我要請教這個阮次長如果現行法規和地方配合得很好為什麼我們今天有很多委員不管藍綠都有提出這個版本來"},{"start":74.15,"end":95.737,"text":"這個哪有最高性、原則性、固定性的這些法律位階最高的憲法都能夠因時制宜、因地制宜來提出修法那我請問為什麼對於有必要修法的財劃法財政部好像若無其事啊這個也無能為力一樣到底那個次長這是"},{"start":98.238,"end":121.447,"text":"莊部長的意思還是卓院長的意思還是賴總統的意思你認為有沒有必要在我們今天整個大體討論你來說清楚講明白我跟委員報告我們財政部的立場很清楚我們希望能夠建立一個就是長治久安的一個財劃法的一個"},{"start":121.647,"end":149.12,"text":"就是因為要建立長治久安所以說需要修啊所以我們希望能夠兼顧地方的需求也能夠兼顧中央的財政的潤性所以我們希望能夠達到一個雙贏那事實上財劃法的確在過去也提過5次的修正案在大院審查的時候一直都沒有獲得共識這大家都很清楚那即使是這樣我們財政部也是積極在努力那我們近期也召開兩次的會議"},{"start":150.3,"end":172.97,"text":"兩次會議呢,那就相關的地方政府提出了這相關的一些指標80個指標呢,我們就不斷的去協調溝通那現在呢,那些指標已經慢慢在縮減縮減,現在只剩下權重還有比如像這個像污染防治啦,或者再生能源,或者是說稅出那部分要不要納入考量"},{"start":173.71,"end":186.963,"text":"這一部分還要再研議所以我們一直都希望能夠把那個共識大家能夠建立起來你認為那個權重那個筆值以目前來看"},{"start":188.663,"end":210.204,"text":"大致上是多少最適當?權重是每一個指標都有他的權重。比如說像台北市,台北市他就是因為目前的分配是包括盈利事業所得額。所以呢他盈利事業他佔比達到34%,所以呢當然他希望盈利事業所得額的權重他高一點。"},{"start":210.945,"end":238.118,"text":"但是對農業縣市來講因為他盈利稅所得稅相對比較低所以他希望權重就低一點所以這一部分還要再溝通希望能夠找到一個平衡點那個藍市長其實財委會過去其實我參加過就是我們財務法裡面修法那麼多次的會議主要那時候很多縣市的財政局局長"},{"start":239.238,"end":264.338,"text":"他們那時候都站在自己地方的本位立場來看但是其實經過溝通協調其實大致上很多縣市的這些局長他們經過這些次的商討研究其實也差不多大家幾乎都有共識那我認為說站在中央的立場你不要這個"},{"start":266.3,"end":284.611,"text":"等於是有權又有錢應該要分配給各縣市讓他自己去發展這樣整個尤其地方跟這個都會區裡面比較偏鄉跟都會區裡面才會均衡的發展那個次長你有什麼看法"},{"start":285.211,"end":314.03,"text":"其實我跟委員報告現在就是說中央跟地方的財源的分配就實質上可以用的財源我們用114年度的預算來看大概中央佔比大概62%那地方大概38%但是相對來講我們的支出是達到這個是64比36換句話說就在這種情況之下其實地方的情況是比中央要好"},{"start":315.471,"end":340.586,"text":"所以我們過去我們就是在這個無論是補助款也好、統籌分配稅款也好、或計劃型補助款也好,我們都不斷的增加嘛。所以在114年我們已經增加到1兆151億。所以這是一個很大的數字。其實阮次長這幾年我們都知道稅收是超徵。"},{"start":342.327,"end":342.848,"text":"財政收支劃"},{"start":364.048,"end":384.127,"text":"這個空、這個缺是補不滿的啦。你再怎麼補都補不滿,因為你會合以後那個幾乎你用的綠電、光電、所有這些幾乎年年都有虧損,而且虧損年年都要補它,沒有補它馬上就漲價。"},{"start":386.469,"end":407.45,"text":"所以說錯誤的政策真的比貪污一百倍可怕其實大家都知道經過25年來中央政府跟地方政府的組織的變革就差了很多現行財劃法真的像卓院長所說的還是配合的很良好嗎?如果真的那成相的差距為什麼不會縮小?"},{"start":409.351,"end":432.684,"text":"其實賴總統在10多年前當台南市長的時候也應該是不會出現在南北的差距讓他卑微地向行政院來抗議那強烈地要求修財劃法更不會讓台灣的東部跟西部出現嚴重私人的這個發展的這種狀況那個市長你有什麼看法"},{"start":433.324,"end":460.366,"text":"跟委員報告就是說剛才委員提到就是說我們的時間數一直都超過預算數但是我跟委員報告就是那是總預算如果你把特別預算考慮進去的話從101年到114年這個十幾年當中我們只有3年有一點點剩餘其他全部都是次之但即使在這種情況之下中央也盡量來支援地方"},{"start":461.187,"end":467.194,"text":"所以我們看到地方這幾年從101年來看100年到114年同一個期間來看的話地方的財政從101年的那時候的次數是580幾億但是到114年就他剩餘達到648億"},{"start":481.289,"end":499.437,"text":"所以現在目前來講地方的財政其實是我認為是以我長期在做財政工作地方目前整體財政是比中央還要更穩健啦所以現在要處理的不是不足的問題現在要處理的是什麼呢是這個分配的問題分配齁所以說齁那個次長"},{"start":503.238,"end":530.746,"text":"在25年前精神財化法修法後中央政府競收入暴增那縣市政府卻經常因為財政的困窘向中央喊話本期是認為說財政部修法責任歸就地方分配比例喬不容修法必須要從長期甚至於引設立委提案是倉促的修法等等其實我認為"},{"start":532.727,"end":553.223,"text":"這個應該大家要這個放下來就是好好的研究然後如何做是最適當然後這樣去修不要說把好像修財劃法變成就是好像未來修了以後會變成這個好像這個中央"},{"start":554.884,"end":577.061,"text":"有草案法以後就造成修了以後就造成中央這個以後財政的這個困擾等等我認為應該好好的探討我完全贊同委的意見就基本上就是說中央跟地方其實是夥伴關係對啊是夥伴要合作啊所以我是說大家就是各退一步大家找一個合理的"},{"start":577.721,"end":589.885,"text":"一個就是解決的方案一個折衷點然後認為說合理大家能夠接受就比較容易達到最後的共識我是不希望說當然因為其實財政紀律"},{"start":593.26,"end":620.342,"text":"認為應該要好好的把它做好那中央地方是夥伴關係啊不是說今天齁這個大家為了爭這個然後搞出很多其他政治的問題我認為那個大可不必我們針對問題然後探討如何去做如何解決是大家能夠接受我剛剛陳如我說中央地方是夥伴關係我們需要把事情做好讓老百姓有感受這是最重要好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":623.441,"end":626.138,"text":"謝謝林德福委員謝謝接著我們請蔡易維委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時25分）謝謝主席，是不是我們請阮次長？"],["主席：請財政部阮次長。"],["林委員德福：次長你好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["林委員德福：我請教，因為莊部長去參加APEC，由你來代理，財劃法經過三任的總統，也經過各政黨的輪替，25年來都沒有修正，財委會其實也有要財政部在本會期開始的時候，事前就要提出它的草案，結果到現在還看不到行政院提出修正的版本，甚至於卓院長還在院會表示說，現行法規的運作跟地方配合得很好。那我要請教阮次長，如果現行法規和地方配合得很好，為什麼我們今天有很多委員，不管藍綠都有提出版本來？有最高性、原則性、固定性，且法律位階最高的憲法都能夠因時制宜、因地制宜來提出修法，那我請問為什麼對於有必要修法的財劃法，財政部好像若無其事，也無能為力一樣？次長，到底這是莊部長的意思？還是卓院長的意思？還是賴總統的意思？你認為有沒有必要在我們今天的整個大體討論來說清楚、講明白？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們財政部的立場很清楚，我們希望能夠建立一個長治久安的財劃法的……"],["林委員德福：就是因為要建立長治久安，所以需要修啊！"],["阮次長清華：所以我們希望能夠兼顧地方的需求，也能夠兼顧中央財政的韌性，達到雙贏。事實上財劃法的確在過去提過5次的修正案，在大院審查的時候一直都沒有獲得共識，這個大家都很清楚。即使是這樣，我們財政部也是積極在努力，我們近期也召開兩次的會議，就地方政府提出的80個相關指標，我們就不斷地去協調溝通，現在那些指標已經慢慢在縮減，現在只剩下權重，還有比如像污染防治或者再生能源，或者是說歲出那部分要不要納入考量，這一部分還要再研議，所以我們也一直希望大家能夠把那個共識建立起來。"],["林委員德福：你認為那個權重、那個比值以目前來看，大致上是多少最適當？"],["阮次長清華：權重是每一個指標都有它的權重，比如說像臺北市，因為目前的分配是包括營利事業所得額，而它營利事業的占比達到34%，所以當然它希望營利事業所得額的權重高一點。但是對農業縣市來講，因為營利事業所得稅相對比較低，所以它希望權重就低一點，所以這一部分還要再溝通，希望能夠找到一個平衡點。"],["林委員德福：阮次長，其實過去我參加過財委會裡面的財劃法修法，那麼多次的會議，主要是那時候很多縣市的財政局局長他們都站在自己地方的本位立場來看……"],["阮次長清華：是啊！問題就在這裡。"],["林委員德福：但是其實經過溝通協調，大致上很多縣市的這些局長，他們經過這麼多次的商討研究，其實也差不多大家都有共識，我認為站在中央的立場，你不要等於是有權又有錢，應該要分配給各縣市，讓它自己去發展，尤其是比較偏鄉跟都會區裡面才會均衡的發展。次長，你有什麼看法？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，現在中央跟地方財源的分配，就實質上可以用的財源，我們用114年度的預算來看，中央占比大概62%，地方大概是38%，但是相對來講，我們的支出是達到64比36；換句話說，在這種情況之下，其實地方的情況是比中央要好。過去我們無論是補助款也好、統籌分配稅款也好，或者計畫型補助款也好，我們都不斷地增加，在114年已經增加到1兆151億，這是一個很大的數字。"],["林委員德福：其實阮次長，這幾年我們都知道稅收是超徵，因為有一些錯誤的政策，你把這些超徵的費用都挪到其他地方，台電是最明顯的一個例子，對不對？大家都心知肚明，因為錯誤的政策，結果用超徵的稅款來彌補台電損失，即台電赤字，這個空缺是補不滿的啦！你再怎麼補都補不滿，當廢核以後，綠電、光電，所有這些能源幾乎年年都虧損，而且虧損年年都要補它，沒有補，它馬上就漲價，所以說錯誤政策真的比貪污可怕一百倍。","其次，大家都知道經過25年來，中央政府跟地方政府的組織變革就差了很多，現行財劃法真的像卓院長所說的，還是配合得很良好嗎？如果是真的，城鄉差距為什麼不會縮小？其實賴總統在十多年前當臺南市長的時候，應該也是出現南北的差距，讓他卑微地向行政院來抗議，強烈地要求修財劃法，更不會讓臺灣的東部跟西部出現嚴重失衡的發展狀況。次長，你有什麼看法？"],["阮次長清華：剛才委員提到我們的實徵數一直都超過預算數……"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是我跟委員報告，那是總預算，如果你把特別預算考慮進去的話，從101年到114年這十幾年當中，我們只有三年有一點點賸餘，其他全部都是赤字，即使在這種情況之下，中央也儘量來支援地方，所以我們看到地方在這幾年，從101年到114年同一個期間來看的話，地方財政在101年那時候的赤字是五百八十幾億，但是到114年賸餘就達到648億。目前來講，以我長期在做財政工作，地方目前整體的財政比中央還要更穩健啦！所以現在要處理的不是不足的問題，現在處理的是什麼呢？是分配的問題、是水平的問題。"],["林委員德福：所以次長，在25年前精省、財劃法修法後，中央政府淨收入暴增，縣市政府卻經常因為財政困窘向中央喊話，本席認為財政部將責任歸咎地方分配比例喬不攏，說修法必須要從長計議，甚至於影射立委提案是倉促修法等等，其實我認為大家應該要放下來，好好地研究如何做是最適當的，然後就這樣去修，不要說未來修了財劃法之後，好像會造成中央以後財政的困擾等等，我認為應該好好地探討，你的想法呢？"],["阮次長清華：我完全贊同委員的意見，基本上中央跟地方其實是夥伴關係……"],["林委員德福：對啊！是夥伴要合作啊！"],["阮次長清華：所以我是說大家各退一步，大家找到一個合理的解決方案……"],["林委員德福：一個折衷點，大家認為合理、能夠接受，次長……"],["阮次長清華：對，就比較容易達到最後的共識啦！"],["林委員德福：對啦！其實我認為應該要好好的把財政紀律做好，中央地方是夥伴關係，不是今天大家為了爭這個，搞出很多其他政治的問題，我認為那個大可不必。"],["阮次長清華：是、是！"],["林委員德福：我們針對問題，探討如何去做、如何解決是大家能夠接受的。"],["阮次長清華：是、是。我贊同委員的看法。"],["林委員德福：誠如剛剛我說的，中央地方是夥伴關係，我們要把事情做好，讓老百姓有感受，這是最重要的，好不好？謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。接著我們請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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有沒有相關的措施"},{"start":75.229,"end":95.146,"text":"有 其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料"},{"start":95.706,"end":124.042,"text":"因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討"},{"start":125.023,"end":126.264,"text":"部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭"},{"start":150.816,"end":174.657,"text":"每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試設安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會"},{"start":175.618,"end":177.499,"text":"在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣"},{"start":194.867,"end":215.656,"text":"那也就是說不管是政黨 包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統"},{"start":216.596,"end":225.926,"text":"如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善"},{"start":227.009,"end":255.202,"text":"是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視"},{"start":255.942,"end":281.106,"text":"我在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官"},{"start":281.406,"end":286.188,"text":"第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同?"},{"start":311.305,"end":311.325,"text":"部長"},{"start":340.747,"end":363.296,"text":"而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對 其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的"},{"start":364.116,"end":373.927,"text":"但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個"},{"start":379.093,"end":396.534,"text":"白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分"},{"start":396.954,"end":420.46,"text":"不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往那過去長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實"},{"start":421.6,"end":445.172,"text":"幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原者但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法所謂的一個中國"},{"start":446.032,"end":446.652,"text":"現代很多國家用印太戰略"},{"start":475.976,"end":486.52,"text":"的這個對中的政策而不是用其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯邦這個258號決議美國的這個試點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚"},{"start":492.483,"end":511.215,"text":"部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道但是除了我們表達關切之外"},{"start":512.696,"end":526.767,"text":"國際的關切有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺台的作為不知道部長會怎麼樣跟他們建議或者透過我們外交部各國的這個住處我們要怎麼樣的建議其實維持台海的和平跟穩定是"},{"start":534.714,"end":555.968,"text":"這裏面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說"},{"start":557.749,"end":576.959,"text":"現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不只針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海"},{"start":578.48,"end":602.32,"text":"這一個情形他是他的這個威權的輸出啊除了一帶一路啊最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭啊就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的這個推動者嘛就是decisive enabler所以這個認定也在那一頭在這個G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的這個威權的擴張啊"},{"start":605.765,"end":606.065,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":621.877,"end":621.917,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":643.211,"end":661.402,"text":"所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的親老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國"},{"start":662.242,"end":666.003,"text":"在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會"},{"start":682.95,"end":706.02,"text":"他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀他們就是在做這件事情所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個"},{"start":708.806,"end":725.04,"text":"南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略"},{"start":726.294,"end":736.286,"text":"我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍"},{"start":744.255,"end":767.605,"text":"整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式"},{"start":768.365,"end":789.806,"text":"台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的"},{"start":790.266,"end":790.486,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":811.286,"end":838.563,"text":"我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強"},{"start":839.423,"end":839.823,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":870.149,"end":894.08,"text":"我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時38分）我們請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，對臺灣來講，最重要的邦交國是包含安全上面的保障，還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國，可是我們的駐美辦事處今年屢傳霸凌、婚外情、不當使用公款、黑函、公文外洩，甚至是行程資訊，訪團的言行都被爆料出來，所以國人對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心。我想請教一下，這些事情發生到現在大概三個多月了，其他的駐外館處，我沒有看到有這麼頻繁類似的這種狀況出現。今天國防部也發生顧立雄部長，還有將官、情報員的個資外流，所以我們很擔心這一些資訊，我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題反而流出在外面，這是操之在己的，這不是敵對勢力在做的，所以我們必須要知道外交部有沒有相關的措施？"],["林部長佳龍：有，其實在這些事情發生之後，我們當然有檢討，也做了調查跟很多的改善，而外館在高度的壓力工作之下，怎麼樣去把工作環境改善，讓我們的同仁可以發揮，或者能夠減少、去除這些所謂的爆料？因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實，但在第一時間造成的傷害我們卻很難去復原，如果人家爆料的有道理，我們當然希望他循正常程序，我也有公布相關的配套措施，假設真的有一些工作上需要改善的，其實外館不管在人事、預算制度還有公務車等等的使用上，我們都做了檢討。有一些其實要更嚴格、有些要放鬆、有些要賦予外館彈性，不能只是因為有一些爆料我們就讓外館無法運作，但是有權的人要有責任，所以我要加強館長制，就是說他的權責必須相符，給他更大的空間，他要負起更大的責任。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我還是再強調，關於內部的競爭，每一個希望尋求更好的表現、得到自己的職涯滿足，我們都尊重，但是把內部問題外部化、不循正常管道的話，這是我們擔憂的部分，特別現在臺美之間的關係已經事涉安全相關的項目，我們不希望未來為了內部競爭，不惜把所有的訊息……就是要搞垮這些可能會跟他們競爭的對象。所以這是一個很嚴肅的議題，我還是再次強調，不管是什麼樣的政治人物、不管他的價值理念，不代表他跟我不一樣所以我就要把這些資訊洩出去，這是不可以的！在美國的辦事處所要效忠的對象是臺灣，也就是說，不管是政黨，無論我們是執政黨或者是在野黨，都不可以只是因為自己的關係而把這些訊息往外洩漏，還是要再強調！","現在連住處等等，我看外交部的這些公文，關於哪一些人下榻哪一個地方，其實相關的公文都出現，我是很擔心外交部內部的這些管控系統，如果像是今天這種情事，像國防部也發生這種個資出現的話，這是很令人擔心的！是不是部長可以承諾去做相對的改善？"],["林部長佳龍：是，這是同步要去……一方面其實我們是一個法治國家，如果有像公文外洩這種違法的事情一定要去查辦，但是如果有管理上或者是一些我們很重視的，不管是像性平的議題、霸凌、公務車或經費的濫用，這些我們當然很重視。我在這個過程當中也發現，其實每個外館也需要讓他能夠發揮，看怎麼樣讓他發揮作用。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我同意。最後，之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去，不管是給媒體等等，應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法反映出來，所以內部對於管理方式有看法的話，必須要確保內部的管道可以反映基層外交官的心聲。"],["林部長佳龍：所以不管是我的部長信箱或者是相關的申訴管道，然後我們怎麼樣去保護同仁，讓他可以下情上達。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，這是非常重要的。","部長，第二個部分，關於一中政策或者是一中原則武器化的部分，我想教一下部長，中國的一中原則跟美國或者歐盟民主陣營的一中政策大概有什麼不同？"],["林部長佳龍：很不同，所謂一中有各種版本，中國的一中原則就是所謂的一中三段論，其實大部分國家都不支持那樣，他們有另外的版本、所謂的一中政策，像美國有提到的時候，也是先立基在臺灣關係法、六項保證還有三個公報，你就可以知道臺灣關係法的重要。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，基本上……"],["林部長佳龍：而且很多的原則，包括六項保證，我想委員也知道。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。部長，基本上我們扼要的講，中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國，中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權，那他們說臺灣是中國的一部分；但是美、日、歐等等民主陣營的國家，大概對前兩句有認知到，但是第三句基本上是不認可的。不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策，其實在國際上對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講、甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的。所以前美國白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到，把一中政策的這些字彙、詞彙做修正、把它成為兩岸政策，我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國遊說的部分，不知道部長同不同意這個部分？不要讓字彙作為混淆的武器化的方式。"],["林部長佳龍：確實有些國家根本就不談一中政策，包括印度、包括英國等等，有一些涉及到跟中國交往，過去長久以來累積所謂的說法，它的內容當然很重要，我們釐清就知道，其實幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原則，但是各國對中國的政策跟對臺灣的政策是不是有關聯還是分開？其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異，所以確實在名詞上，因為有時候就只是一個很簡要的說法，所謂的一個中國，事實上內容是不同版本。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，當然是不同版本，但是對我們來說、對臺灣來講，增強臺灣的印象，包含我們是一個主權獨立的國家等等印象，可能不適合再用一中政策這樣子的說法，所以如果有機會，我認為臺灣的外交部可以通知各國或者是向他們表達說，或許他們可以用新的名詞來定義臺灣跟他們國家的關係，我覺得這樣比較妥當。"],["林部長佳龍：是，現在很多國家用印太戰略的對中政策，而不是用什麼……其實已經都儘量避免或是減少去談。"],["陳委員冠廷：太棒了，剛好部長提到印太政策……"],["林部長佳龍：尤其在美國對聯合國第2758號決議的四點說明之後，我想這個情勢也很清楚。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長剛剛談到印太政策，剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你討論一下。關於中國最近對臺的軍演，其實美、日、歐三十多國都已經表達關切、敦促中國克制，還有七大工業國也發表聯合聲明，這個我想部長都知道，但是除了我們表達關切之外，國際的關切上有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺臺的作為，不知道部長會怎麼樣建議他們，或者透過我們外交部各國的駐處要怎麼樣建議？"],["林部長佳龍：其實維持臺海的和平跟穩定是這些理念相近或民主國家的共識，我覺得這裡面自由航行權是一個很具體的，不能夠讓臺海內海化、讓臺灣變成中國的內政問題，到時候關起門來就對臺灣發動戰爭，到時候外國也沒有辦法基於他們的利益介入。現在國際上很清楚，我們臺灣的政府是要維護現狀，就是我們的和平跟穩定，反而是中國在破壞現狀，他用各種的混合戰、灰色作戰的方法。也不只針對臺灣，他針對第一島鏈，不只臺海，包括南海、東海，他的威權輸出除了一帶一路，最近很明顯就是俄烏戰爭，中國是俄國侵略的關鍵推動者，就是Decisive enabler，所以在NATO、G7等很多國家都是這樣認定的時候，其實中國的威權擴張已經對以規則為基礎的國際秩序造成很大的挑戰。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長講得非常好，綜合剛才講的，第一個，當中國想要內海化臺灣海峽的時候，我們就把它國際化，所以我們鼓勵自由航行、各個軍艦來。第二個部分，就是把跟我們有共同利害的國家集團化，也就是中國想把俄羅斯跟北朝鮮，甚至是伊朗，把他們集體化，他們情報共享、經濟共享，甚至軍事協助，但我們也要強調，我國的利益跟我們的利害跟日本、菲律賓，甚至跟美國還有一些歐洲國家都是一致的。所以這就是我們一再強調的，把臺灣海峽國際化之外，還有鼓勵各國跟臺灣在情報、經濟、軍事、安全上面的資源共享。另外一個部分，就是灰色地帶的侵擾，他們的海警船，我認為我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國強調他們要增加海警的，不管是海警艦艇的建造數量等等，我們還有共同的訓練等，都是一致化的，我們外交部可以表達這些相關的訊息……"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我補充一下，他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警船是不一樣的，其實就是中央軍委會，它就是軍艦，所以海警在灰色地帶侵擾事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀……"],["陳委員冠廷：他們就是在做這件事情，所以我們更加要相對的因應。不好意思，時間有限，趕快來問南南合作的部分。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：中國的南南合作是要強化跟全球南方國家政治經濟、政治聯繫，所以我們最近在看到南非事件的時候，我想要請教部長，中國跟南非之間的關係跟臺灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：當然是不一樣的。"],["陳委員冠廷：我必須要強調，我國的外交資源是有限的，我們一直在講印太戰略，我來比較一下，南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴，中國自南非進口的數額大概是320億美金，臺灣自南非進口是4.94億美元，這個量體是65倍，整整65倍，所以當我們在投放外交資源的時候，我們必須要思考。","我再來強調一個部分，印度，我們有新南向政策，但我還是認為印度跟臺灣之間，不僅僅是利害一致的，在地緣政治上面的挑戰，我認為加強對印度的關係，或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式。臺灣自印度進口，在2023年是22.11億美元，中國自印度進口大概是185億，大概是七倍到八倍，也就是說在南非，我們之間的差距是65倍之多，但是在印度卻是不同，而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的，是有含金量的，是高科技跟資訊相關的都有。所以我必須要強調說，我們對印度應該建立獨立的政策，它不是新南向的一環，它是全球人口數最多、經濟成長率非常高、最大的民主國家，我們必須要重新定位我們的外交資源配置，不知道部長這樣……"],["林部長佳龍：我非常贊成委員的主張，其實我們的新南向政策中，東協跟南亞是要分開，南亞與印度最重要，臺灣跟印度應該建立更全面的、深入的合作關係，因為印太戰略裡面很重要，其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突，經濟上當然是一種競合關係，而我們跟印度之間，幾乎可以說是互補性很強，可以建立全面而深入的夥伴關係。"],["陳委員冠廷：最近我們在開公聽會，談到太空政策，印度辦事處副代表就跟我們談到，印度的太空計畫是全球最便宜的，包含發射等等都是最便宜，所以我認為在跟印度交往的時候，除了經貿之外、科技之間充滿了潛力，還是再次強調重新來做盤整，把資源投放在刀口上面，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會持續檢討，做一些外交重點的集中，如委員所講的，加強跟我們理念相近或是能夠互補的合作的國家……"],["陳委員冠廷：價值觀不同的地方，我們就用利害跟它一致；當利害一致，但價值觀不同的國家，我們還是有其他的方式，我們外交可以更彈性。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。","我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時53分）","繼續開會（12時）"],["主席：繼續開會。","我們現在請林德福委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f072c7db01cf8e98bfb7a8b6cc2b6ae9b7eccf4f5c33c47a5837a2079df6bf46255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:24:41 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主席有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":11.141,"end":38.597,"text":"部長好委員長辛苦了這個已經都快要到中午了剛剛特別看到您的這個報告可以說這個外交同仁在外交上面的努力的成果其實在中國跟我們的國際困境上面大家真的非常努力包括報告提到從今年5月就您上任之後到現在才幾個月的時間已經有超過2300位的友邦高層或是理念相近的政要來訪台"},{"start":39.818,"end":42.959,"text":"那麼我們也知道我們的前總統蔡英文其實在昨天凌晨也剛結束了這個歐洲行那麼他除了參加捷克的公園2000論壇然後呢還到法國啦比利時甚至於是第一位台灣的卸任元首到了歐洲議會"},{"start":58.466,"end":71.436,"text":"的總部那麼可以說是第一位我們的現任委員首到這邊去訪問我想外交的同仁肯定做出了非常多的努力那麼本席今天就這個外交委員會的這個詢答也真的要給我們在第一線外交打拚的外交同仁給予最高的肯定跟鼓勵大家真的這一路上辛苦了因為面對的打壓本席在8月9月的時候特別到了歐洲幾個國家去訪問"},{"start":85.086,"end":85.126,"text":"主席"},{"start":107.265,"end":107.445,"text":"小英總統"},{"start":122.466,"end":148.042,"text":"代表現任委員首代表台灣代表我們現在的賴清德總統來出訪已經有媒體放這種風聲結果居然還被本席發現是就在小英前總統出訪前我們居然捷克發出了這個灰色警訊那這就覺得好奇怪了怎麼會在這個時候在10月11號的時候有這樣的一個動作部長你知道嗎所以"},{"start":149.743,"end":156.928,"text":"這個捷克變得不安全嗎那如果不安全的話是因為中國打壓還是之前我們的蕭美琴副總統在就任前到訪也發生過事件啊如果是這樣的時候這個警示燈到底是怎麼樣出現的黃色橙色灰色那這個又代表什麼樣的意思呢部長"},{"start":171.3,"end":190.855,"text":"是啦 這個容易引起誤會啦 什麼灰色警示明明就有改善啊 所以我看到也覺得有點突兀委員也有跟我反應啦 所以我請同仁去做一些檢討啦你有灰色 這個是不是比較傾向於比較相對安全嘛 然後又警示"},{"start":191.696,"end":193.417,"text":"警戒的國家才分成四個等級紅橙黃灰那也可以沒有不需要警戒的國家"},{"start":219.753,"end":222.635,"text":"所以這個警示燈灰色的意思到底是警示是安全還是不安全那麼這樣的區隔到底是怎麼來比如說灰色"},{"start":240.609,"end":257.427,"text":"警示表示提醒注意注意什麼有很多要注意的可能是比如說像東南亞國家有的時候會有一些流行性的疾病正在出現有沒有可能做一些改善比如說像橙色很明顯的他就告訴你說非必要"},{"start":258.388,"end":287.58,"text":"就不要去旅行了避免非必要的旅行橙色就是要注意旅行安全但灰色是提醒注意提醒注意什麼可不可以更明確否則大家也會覺得說那你有什麼好像沒什麼我也搞不懂比如說如果我現在要去捷克我是國人我到底要注意什麼那像這個部分的擬定有沒有可能更細緻尤其是我們都知道灰色就是曖昧不明可是你的提示又這麼的曖昧不明我真的有看沒有懂"},{"start":288.646,"end":304.097,"text":"各國大致上都是分成三到四等那我們分四等灰色是最輕微的大致上都是要注意一下治安這些最輕微的部長在這裡啦部長我們就是在灰色的部分我們就寫得清楚一點"},{"start":304.978,"end":328.926,"text":"那讓國人不要恐慌尤其是像面對這樣的狀況的時候如果今天部長沒有講清楚的話大家都會覺得說欸阿是不是要給我們的這個小英前總統要出訪之前出了一道難題嗎是不是讓這些惡意來做文章的媒體更有機會來借題發揮好嗎這個灰色是不是更能更明確但是我們都知道紅色"},{"start":330.726,"end":338.498,"text":"部長紅色是不是就希望國人盡量不要去對啊紅燈就是悟行啊紅燈悟行嘛最好是不要去啊好但是呢包括現在我看到的幾個紅燈就是烏克蘭北韓伊拉克"},{"start":346.589,"end":366.996,"text":"中非共和國以及南美洲的委內瑞拉這幾個國家有的可能是正在戰火那有些可能是疫情的關係或其他的狀況所以如果舊部長認為是不應該去但是部長你知道嗎我最近分別收到了幾個案例其中呢他就是因為國人"},{"start":369.502,"end":390.012,"text":"因為有一些身份的問題或者是經濟的問題我們領事局這裡居然是要求國人要到這些紅色警示區的國家請他們去拿一些證明可能是他本人可能是他的配偶那麼在本席接受到這個陳情之後去了解"},{"start":391.428,"end":391.808,"text":"我請來林副主有沒有"},{"start":420.353,"end":439.059,"text":"我簡單跟委員報告就是我們所有這些警戒分級是外管在限地包括根據限地的情況跟根據各國公布的狀況報回來的一些建議之後再經過地域是評估之後才會去做公布"},{"start":439.879,"end":466.431,"text":"那如果是被列為紅色的話基本上我們就不鼓勵國人去因為這個可能會有發生危險的這個之魚啦所以他是這樣子的那當然剛剛講的紅塵黃灰依照輕重程度不同的話基本上灰色只是善盡提醒那這個東西已經行之多年每三個月會做例行性的請外管報會所以它不是突然發生這樣的情況"},{"start":467.059,"end":495.514,"text":"好我本期要問的題目很簡單就是說第一個前面剛剛我們已經調溝通過就是灰色要更明確但是紅色警戒區的部分包括理事局這裡或是部長這裡都認為紅色就是紅燈霧行但是現在如果是紅色警戒區國人因為比如說經濟的貿易往來又或者是像內政部營利署相關的身份的認證"},{"start":496.815,"end":522.761,"text":"那必須要到這些國家去才能夠拿到相關的文件跟資料的時候就外交部的立場或者是領事局的立場可不可以去那如果去了有生命的危險的時候有沒有可能做一些話部會的溝通來簡化這些文件的認證的過程避免國人身陷險境這是本席其實要問的第二個問題部長"},{"start":526.038,"end":552.494,"text":"就是說如果已經是紅色的這個警示當然安全是第一啦那用什麼方式可以來做如果設置到有一些要辦理的事情是不是我們林副局來研究一下就是比如說鄰近國家啦或者是用什麼樣的其他的網路的方式或是有什麼樣的證明可以來減少這個風險"},{"start":555.055,"end":573.113,"text":"因為本席追蹤這個問題就是因為陳情人他們就在委內瑞拉或者是像烏克蘭這種充滿了高度危險性的那麼當時外交部或者相關單位給的答案就是說那你可以在台灣有辦事處或者是有相關的這個"},{"start":574.995,"end":602.187,"text":"可以處理公文件認證的單位但是我們知道在台灣並不是所有的這些沒有邦交的國家的友邦都在台灣住有相關的辦事處所以在這個部分本席希望有剛剛部長的承諾可以再跟其他的相關的部會做一些橫向的聯繫不要讓國人非得到這些紅色警戒區去走一趟不然這個紅色警戒根本就是開玩笑當遇到真正要處理的事情的時候"},{"start":603.307,"end":628.971,"text":"連站在我們的中央部會都沒有辦法給予協助那這個聽起來就會覺得很奇怪好嗎部長好另外一個本席其實要請這個部長來看一下這兩張圖是本席找到的一個是波蘭的便利商店的巨頭另外一個是索菲亞電動運輸公司的電動巴士我不知道部長看了這兩個圖有沒有什麼感受"},{"start":634.219,"end":635.82,"text":"公眾會有在現場嗎 公眾會的執行長來 公眾會"},{"start":654.615,"end":673.88,"text":"時間有限我就來講一下其實這個是本席在國和會的投融資計畫就是歐盈氣候高影響力的基金當中我們看到的一個比如說就是波蘭零售永續融資子計畫當中我們投融資的言下之意這是什麼"},{"start":674.46,"end":674.841,"text":"台灣可以幫助"},{"start":685.833,"end":713.922,"text":"對,但是就會發現說你看本席這個照片一拿出來只有在國和會看到其實是台灣Can Help的一個實力我要強調的是喔我們做了很多但是有時候我們的對內宣傳或者是對外對內的論述不夠我知道現在很多在野黨的委員一直在批評說我們是拿這個政府的預算在做所謂大內宣大外宣"},{"start":714.702,"end":715.263,"text":"來 部長 要不要回應一下"},{"start":741.7,"end":760.401,"text":"確實啦我主持國和會因為我是董事長我就覺得說我們要會做也要會說嘛因為你會帶來更多的支持會更容易去發揮效果所以委員的這個提醒我們會加強就是說其實我們的員外很多計畫真的都獲得各國的好評甚至現在有一些"},{"start":761.983,"end":762.143,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":782.965,"end":804.367,"text":"產業的這個強項還有解決方案我們都輸出所以像電動巴士啊這個就是非常好的就是大家都想發展那台灣已經很成熟另外像這個對於他們的這個微創或輕創這些事情我們會加強那就是因為這個其實是公共外交很重要的一部分"},{"start":805.189,"end":833.142,"text":"對 外交要除了只是用力的做之外我們也要對外來宣揚跟宣傳台灣可以help其實持續有在做但是不要只有國和會看得到其他地方看不到因為這樣子包括大家民眾在這些駐在國的時候包括我們的台商才有更多的素材跟更大的力道協助我們一起從一軌二軌到民眾大家一起來做外交好 謝謝"},{"start":833.982,"end":834.343,"text":"謝謝林楚茵"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時24分）謝謝主席。主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：辛苦了，已經都快要到中午了。剛剛特別看到您的報告，可以看出外交同仁在外交上面努力的成果，其實在中國跟我們的國際困境上面，大家真的非常努力，包括報告提到從今年5月、就是您上任之後到現在，才幾個月的時間，已經有超過2,300位的友邦高層或是理念相近的政要來訪臺。","我們也知道，我們的前總統蔡英文其實在昨天凌晨也剛結束了歐洲行，他除了參加捷克的「公元2000論壇」，還到法國、比利時，甚至於是第一位臺灣的卸任元首到了歐洲議會的總部，可以說是第一位我們的卸任元首到這邊訪問。我想外交的同仁肯定做出了非常多的努力，本席今天就藉由外交及國防委員會的詢答，也真的要對我們在第一線外交打拚的外交同仁給予最高的肯定跟鼓勵，大家真的一路上辛苦了，因為面對了打壓。","本席在8月、9月的時候，特別到了歐洲幾個國家去訪問，就可以感受到第一線同仁很努力，但是我最怕的是什麼？第一線很努力，但是在部本部有沒有人在扯後腿？我講到扯後腿，當然是因為有一些本部的作為，本席覺得怪怪的。比如我剛剛特別提到，小英總統剛從捷克回來，但是在總統出發之前，其實就已經有許多媒體在放消息，說歐洲國家有一些領袖、高層其實沒那麼希望小英總統代表卸任元首、代表臺灣、代表現在的賴清德總統出訪，已經有媒體放這種風聲，結果居然還被本席發現，就在小英前總統出訪前，我們對捷克發出了灰色警訊，這就讓我覺得好奇怪了，怎麼會在10月11日這個時候有這樣的動作？部長，你知道嗎？所以捷克變得不安全嗎？如果不安全的話，是因為中國打壓，還是之前蕭美琴副總統在就任前到訪也發生過事件？如果是這樣的時候，這個警示燈到底是怎麼樣出現的？黃色、橙色、灰色又代表什麼樣的意思呢？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：是，這個容易引起誤會，什麼灰色警示，明明就有改善啊，所以我看到也覺得有點突兀，委員也有跟我反映，所以我請同仁去做一些檢討。灰色是不是比較傾向於比較相對安全，然後又警示……"],["林委員楚茵：對！"],["林部長佳龍：這個好像有什麼事情，但是內容又不是這個樣子，所以我請同仁說明，他們現在會做一些檢討。"],["林委員楚茵：領事局嗎？來，局長。"],["何局長震寰：跟委員報告，我們這個警示是行之有年，是需要警戒的國家才分成4個等級：紅、橙、黃、灰，也有不需要警戒的國家。疫情起的時候，就是前面3年當中，因為疫情的關係，大部分我們把各國都列為警戒。"],["林委員楚茵：所以這個警示燈灰色的意思，到底是警示安全、還是不安全？這樣的區隔到底是怎麼來的？比如灰色警示表示提醒、注意，注意什麼？有很多要注意的，可能是比如像東南亞國家有的時候會有一些流行性的疾病正在出現。有沒有可能做一些改善？比如像橙色很明顯地就告訴你，非必要就不要去旅行了，避免非必要的旅行，橙色就是要注意旅行安全，但灰色是提醒注意，提醒注意什麼？可不可以更明確？否則大家也會覺得有寫好像沒寫一樣，我也搞不懂，比如如果我現在要去捷克，我是國人，我到底要注意什麼？像這個部分的擬訂有沒有可能更細緻？尤其我們都知道，灰色就是曖昧不明，可是你的提示又這麼地曖昧不明，我真的有看沒有懂耶。"],["何局長震寰：各國大致上都是分成3到4等，我們分4等，灰色是最輕微的，大致上都是要注意一下治安這些最輕微的……"],["林委員楚茵：好，沒問題，部長在這裡，部長，我們在灰色的部分就寫得清楚一點，讓國人不要恐慌，尤其是像面對這樣的狀況的時候，如果今天部長沒有講清楚的話，大家都會覺得是不是要給我們的小英前總統出訪之前出了一道難題，是不是讓這些惡意做文章的媒體更有機會借題發揮，好嗎？灰色是不是能更明確？部長，我們都知道，紅色是不是希望國人儘量不要去？"],["林部長佳龍：對啊，紅燈就是勿行，最好是不要去。"],["林委員楚茵：紅燈勿行嘛！但是現在我看到的幾個紅燈地區，包括烏克蘭、北韓、伊拉克，還有中非共和國以及南美洲的委內瑞拉這幾個國家，有的可能是正處於戰火，有些可能是疫情的關係或其他的狀況。如果部長認為是不應該去的，但是部長，你知道嗎？我最近分別收到了幾個案例，其中就是因為國人有一些身分的問題或是經濟的問題，我們領事局居然是要求國人要到這些紅色警示區的國家，請他們去拿一些證明，可能是他本人，可能是他的配偶。在本席接受到這個陳情之後去瞭解，比如以委內瑞拉來講，現在是一個不適合前往的國家，如果他必須要拿到一些相關的證明，不論是身分證明或是經濟證明的時候，他其實是不方便去的，對吧？還是國人一定要冒險前往這些國家，去駐在國拿到一些相關的證明，有沒有別的方法可以不要前往這些紅色警戒區？"],["林部長佳龍：領務局有沒有詳細的個案。"],["何局長震寰：我簡單跟委員報告，我們所有這些警戒分級是外館在現地，包括根據現地的情況和根據各國公布的狀況報回來的一些建議，再經過地域司評估之後才會做公布，如果是被列為紅色的話，基本上我們就不鼓勵國人去，因為可能會有發生危險之虞，所以是這樣子的。當然剛剛講的紅橙黃灰，依照輕重程度不同，基本上灰色只是善盡提醒，這個東西已經行之多年，每三個月會例行性的請外館報回來，所以它不是突然發生這樣的情況。"],["林委員楚茵：本席要問的題目很簡單，第一個，前面剛剛我們已經溝通過，就是灰色要更明確。紅色警戒區的部分，包括領事局和部長都認為紅色就是紅燈勿行，但是現在如果是紅色警戒區，國人因為經濟的貿易往來，又或者是像內政部移民署相關的身分認證，必須要到這些國家去才能夠拿到相關文件和資料的時候，就外交部的立場或是領事局的立場，可不可以去？如果去了有生命危險的時候，有沒有可能做一些跨部會的溝通來簡化這些文件認證的過程，避免國人深陷險境？這是本席要問的第二個問題，部長。"],["林部長佳龍：如果已經是紅色警示，當然是安全第一，至於可以用什麼方式來做，如果涉及到有一些要辦理的事情，我們領務局來研究一下，比如到鄰近國家或是用什麼樣其他的網路方式，或是有什麼樣的證明可以減少這個風險。"],["林委員楚茵：本席會追蹤這個問題就是因為陳情人就在委內瑞拉或是像烏克蘭這種充滿高度危險性的地方，當時外交部或相關單位給的答案都是你可以在臺灣辦事處，或是相關可以處理公文件認證的單位。但是我們知道並不是所有這些沒有邦交的國家……的友邦都在臺灣駐有相關的辦事處，所以在這個部分，本席希望有剛剛部長的承諾，可以再跟其他的相關部會做一些橫向聯繫，不要讓國人非得到這些紅色警界區去走一趟。不然這個紅色警界根本就是開玩笑，當遇到真正要處理的事情時，連我們的中央部會都沒有辦法給予協助，這個聽起來就會覺得很奇怪，好嗎？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["林委員楚茵：另外，本席要請部長看一下，這兩張圖是本席找到的，一個是波蘭的便利商店巨頭，另外一個是索菲亞電動運輸公司的電動巴士，我不知道部長看了這兩張圖有沒有什麼感受？"],["林部長佳龍：感受？"],["林委員楚茵：有沒有看出什麼端倪？"],["林部長佳龍：這個其中必有緣故，但是請委員指導一下。這是綠色的，其他的……"],["林委員楚茵：好，公眾會有在現場嗎？公眾會的執行長？"],["林部長佳龍：公眾會。"],["林委員楚茵：時間有限，我講一下，其實這個是本席在國合會的投融資計畫「歐銀氣候高影響力特別基金」當中看到的，比如「波蘭零售連鎖永續融資子計畫」就是我們投融資的，言下之意，這其實是現在部長非常在乎的，我們在國際上面所謂的榮邦計畫，也算是Taiwan can help其中的一環，但是本席發現這個照片一拿出來，只有在國合會看到，其實這是Taiwan can help的一個實例。我要強調的是我們做了很多，但是有時候我們的對外宣傳或者是對內論述不夠，我知道現在很多在野黨的委員一直在批評我們是拿著政府的預算在做所謂大內宣、大外宣，我們做對了事或者是我們正在做的事，其實是必須要講出來的。本席這兩張圖是指既然我們正在做Taiwan can help，而且持續在做，對友邦做、對我們有好的正面形象的在做，必須要加強對外說明，否則你看我拿出來連部長也不知道，部長，要不要回應一下？"],["林部長佳龍：確實，我主持過國合會，因為我是董事長，我覺得我們要會做也要會說，因為你會帶來更多的支持，會更容易發揮效果，所以委員的提醒我們會加強。其實我們很多的援外計畫真的都獲得各國好評，甚至現在有一些友邦要跟我們一起擴大計畫，比如婦女的賦能計畫，有關於微創企業的扶助，還有與青年相關的，這些都是在我們的援外計畫裡面。現在我們的榮邦計畫又把我們科技產業的這個強項以及解決方案都輸出，像電動巴士就是非常好的，大家都想發展，臺灣已經很成熟，另外，對於微創或青創這些事情我們會加強，因為這個其實是公共外交很重要的一部分。"],["林委員楚茵：外交除了只是用力的做之外，我們也要對外宣揚和宣傳，Taiwan can help其實持續有在做，但是不要只有國合會看得到，其他地方看不到，因為這樣民眾在這些駐在國的時候，包括我們的臺商，才有更多的素材和更大的力道協助我們一起從一軌、二軌到民眾，大家一起來做外交，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝，Love from Taiwan。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0cbe87d11995dfdecb7a8b6cc2b6ae9b7eccf4f5c33c47a5861ad045f983e26e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:07:33 - 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陷阱"},{"start":351.267,"end":370.222,"text":"另外透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難"},{"start":372.303,"end":382.289,"text":"這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出"},{"start":383.864,"end":384.465,"text":"一帶一路是威權輸出民主陣營"},{"start":405.575,"end":428.424,"text":"一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是"},{"start":429.144,"end":450.973,"text":"我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子"},{"start":452.393,"end":452.493,"text":"林佳龍議員"},{"start":473.655,"end":474.756,"text":"當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候,國際上確實有一些"},{"start":493.899,"end":494.019,"text":"同意嗎?"},{"start":509.98,"end":511.921,"text":"民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚"},{"start":528.988,"end":551.526,"text":"不能在價值的方針上面有所質疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚 執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做"},{"start":556.81,"end":557.611,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":583.027,"end":606.012,"text":"那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇"},{"start":606.752,"end":633.133,"text":"部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上"},{"start":633.894,"end":652.452,"text":"我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的"},{"start":654.994,"end":655.614,"text":"南非對住管者的不合理要求"},{"start":671.124,"end":697.446,"text":"部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制那當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼這樣再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制"},{"start":698.567,"end":710.559,"text":"因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個"},{"start":721.263,"end":723.924,"text":"最基本的原則其實我們是基於對等嘛對不對基本上是在對等的"},{"start":748.712,"end":749.052,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":777.146,"end":800.427,"text":"跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼?"},{"start":801.479,"end":802.559,"text":"對等的概念不是只是一個口號"},{"start":826.384,"end":852.816,"text":"不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制這部分我覺得它的理由它的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦這個中非合作論壇"},{"start":853.996,"end":878.676,"text":"他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能類似南非的狀況他現在當然這是一個案例但確實也有可能在其他國家還會發生我們在心裡面心裡知道還有可能發生但這個發生的原因並不是因為台灣做錯了什麼事情"},{"start":879.477,"end":879.917,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":898.422,"end":913.305,"text":"那大家覺得 欸 又一個 欸 又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情"},{"start":914.434,"end":937.795,"text":"我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好"},{"start":938.592,"end":938.752,"text":"中東歐國家"},{"start":962.509,"end":963.949,"text":"中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權"},{"start":989.838,"end":991.079,"text":"臺灣是世界的臺灣,我們也要走向世界"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時7分）請林部長。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：請林部長。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你應該知道我一直以來都非常關注民主基金會的議題。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員申翰：這段時間其實有很多過去我們在民間的民主夥伴，尤其是公民團體，其實都是在公民社會裡面有很大的聲譽，尤其是一方面它支持民主理念，在某些部分，對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方，它也會提出批判，這是公民社會我們看到的常態，很多這樣的團體它其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分，他們最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題。部長，我還是想請你再說一次，就是臺灣當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我知道，因為我當時在國安會，高英茂委員那時候在……是同事嘛，所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解。我在美國的時候也有參與美國的民主基金會，所以對這二十年來的發展，可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大臺灣在民主跟人權價值上面，尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力，這部分是很關鍵，尤其是在要對抗中國的威權擴張的部分。這一、兩個月其實有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論一些相關的議題，大家確實都還很關注幾件事情。在9月25號的時候，民主基金會通過了包括廖達琪執行長、執行長的人事同意案，廖老師當然過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定，這部分在專業上面，這是廖老師的專業，但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟執行長這邊來回答，關於民主基金會，因為在我們臺灣的整體外交運作上面，它等於像是二軌的，它算是個民間機構，但是有點是我們二軌外交重要的資產，所以大家都很關心執行長對於我們外交路線的態度跟總統是不是一致，針對這部分，部長，你的態度是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為總統是國家元首，代表國家行使外交權，我想民主基金會當然會依據總統領導國政的大方針來推動二軌外交。"],["洪委員申翰：我們請執行長。"],["林部長佳龍：執行長很有經驗的。"],["洪委員申翰：執行長，你覺得民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致？"],["廖執行長達琪：應該是完全可以配合的，而且我們是受外交部整個最重要督導的單位，所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的活動，我們從過去以來到現在都是這樣子。"],["洪委員申翰：所以在路線上面或在運作方針上不該有扞格嘛對不對？這應該是很明確的。"],["廖執行長達琪：對。這是外交嘛！外交是整體的。"],["洪委員申翰：在外交上面不該有扞格。這是大家現在還是會關注的議題，我覺得當時大家找到一個朝野之間共同的人選方案，就是廖老師作為這個方案……"],["廖執行長達琪：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：大家都非常關注這個事情，所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題，大家就問，如果外交部跟民主基金會裡面有扞格的話，在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害，或者外交資源運作得不好，大家覺得社會會要找總統負責，還是找現在國會議長──韓國瑜院長負責？執行長，你覺得？"],["廖執行長達琪：其實您說的是一個假設性問題，從過去到現在都還沒有出現。"],["洪委員申翰：你覺得，如果扞格，你覺得？"],["廖執行長達琪：因為這是假設性問題。"],["洪委員申翰：是假設性問題。"],["廖執行長達琪：基本上，我們都是配合外交部，所以不容易出現所謂扞格的狀態。同時也跟您補充一下，院長──就是我們的董事長，也非常支持我們整體跟國家配合的外交，他也覺得臺灣民主基金會最重要的定位就是在深化跟亞洲自由民主的NGO做連結，走出世界，這一點完全一致，沒有扞格。"],["洪委員申翰：部長跟執行長，我想請教幾個事情。這個是民主基金會在2015年當時馬政府時期有一個補助計畫，這個補助計畫補助了「中國大陸跟『亞投行』與『一帶一路』倡議：策略與變遷研討會」，我想請問一下部長，你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值？對於現在中國的一帶一路，國際上，尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，如果是探討，其實都應該探討，有時候要知己知彼嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["林部長佳龍：但是如果它的內容或是涉及到立場，我們也是多元呈現，但是當然政府的政策，比如這個一帶一路造成的問題，我們不能只是歌功頌德，它的負面效應，尤其現在的數位思路……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得現在中國的一帶一路，就目前我們臺灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話，算是民主輸出還是威權輸出？"],["林部長佳龍：其實它是我們講的，透過一帶一路影響了很多國家朝向不是一個善治的發展，就是說債務、陷阱，另外就是透過這個方式去影響它國內的政治，這個是很普遍，所以為什麼……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，最近有很多國際媒體，包括國際組織都出了報告，甚至都點出像中國一帶一路這樣的策略，其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權，甚至留下很多人權的災難，這個都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告，這不是我說的，這是很多國際組織上面說的事情。所以，一樣，執行長，你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出，還是威權輸出？"],["廖執行長達琪：我覺得這個是另外一個議題。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，這是我現在問你的議題。"],["廖執行長達琪：一帶一路是威權輸出還是民主輸出？我覺得是多方面的，它有經濟上的層面，我不替它做個定性，但現在一帶一路也遭遇到很多困難。"],["洪委員申翰：你覺得現在國際的……"],["廖執行長達琪：我特別補充一下……"],["洪委員申翰：執行長，你覺得現在國際的民主陣營覺得一帶一路是民主輸出，還是威權輸出？我就問這個問題，就你的理解，你有專業啊！"],["廖執行長達琪：可能就民主陣營來講，會覺得所謂的一帶一路比較像是一個威權上的布建，就民主陣營的思維來講。"],["洪委員申翰：是。我們民主基金會一個很重要的部分，就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際民主陣營站在一起，互相合作嘛，對不對？"],["廖執行長達琪：是。"],["洪委員申翰：就我的角度看起來，包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論，如果它這裡面的內容好像有點在鼓吹，或者是有點在往兩岸統合、或者是一帶一路方向上面去的話，我自己覺得，以現在的角度，當時我不評論，但現在角度，我認為這是不太適合的，把資源投入在像這樣子已經會被民主陣營認為是威權輸出的倡議上面，執行長覺得？"],["廖執行長達琪：委員，我稍微補充一下，因為它是學術討論。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["廖執行長達琪：我覺得我們學術討論上，因為我是學界出來的，會希望我們能夠料敵從寬，而且我們對敵人也要多了解一點點，所以學術討論上，如果它是一個open的，就像我們部長也是學界出身的，是很好的學校──耶魯大學，所以對於學術界討論一些議題、對國家了解敵人有幫助的，我覺得這是好的部分。當然，你說如果它是鼓吹的、是一個宣傳的話，那學術界就不會做這種事。"],["洪委員申翰：執行長，我們都很清楚知道，當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候，國際上面確實有一些人覺得好像這是一個對國際上面的投資，我們都知道這事情，但在經過多年以後，尤其是經過10年以後，大家也看清了一帶一路很多本質性的企圖，我想這部分執行長應該也同意嘛，對不對？同意嗎？"],["廖執行長達琪：同意啊！它會有它的企圖。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我的意思是，我們臺灣是一個多元言論自由的地方，我們不會說不能討論，但我覺得很重要的事情是，在民主基金會的運作，包括外交部的指導下的運作，我覺得民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚，不能在價值的方針上面有所遲疑，包括模糊，但我不是說不能討論，當然可以討論，但價值的方針應該清楚，執行長同意嗎？"],["廖執行長達琪：價值方針很清楚，鼓勵言論自由，國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值。"],["洪委員申翰：我們當然贊成言論自由，我再說一次，我們當然贊成言論自由，但我要再強調一下，像這種問題曾經困擾過國際，也許有些人說，這是中國要來幫各國做基建的經濟投資，這個事情當時會討論，但當我們現在看清楚以後，我覺得我們在價值的方針上面就要立定清楚了，就不能夠打模糊仗、不能夠和稀泥。部長，同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：同意，因為10年前、10年後，確實情況越來越清楚。因為這個一帶一路這種威權輸出，它透過所謂的投資，事實上是在控制，也造成貪腐，很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家，他們的政治菁英就被俘虜了，這個帶來的就是違反善治，所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的全球基本建設投資倡議，甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家，也有另外一個選擇。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來，這不是只是我自己個人的問題，我說過這段時間有很多來自公民社會的組織，包括民主基金會有幾位董事來找我討論，大家認為有些很重要的關鍵問題，還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚，尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚，但這不是我們要去打壓多元言論自由的部分，當然討論可以討論，可是我們在價值方向上，我還是再說一次，這件事情沒有猶疑的空間、更清楚。尤其是在這麼多年以後，現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國、怎麼看待它的威權輸出等等各種作法，我想大家現在是越來越清楚，這部分部長一定很清楚，跟當時習近平剛接任中國，一開始上任以後，大概是非常非常不一樣的狀況，我覺得我們這部分還是要做一個表達。","接下來我還是想要跟部長請問，我們今天很多都討論到南非對於我們駐館不合理的要求這個問題，部長，我知道你們現在有談到在研擬相關的反制，但我想問部長，現在媒體上會有些人問到底為什麼要反制？反制有用嗎？我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制、到底原因是什麼，再說明清楚一下。"],["林部長佳龍：基於我們國家的主權跟尊嚴，當然外交行為就是對等互惠，不對等，我們當然要相應的有反制，因為互惠其實對他「惠」是比較大，因為我們的貿易額以這幾年來講，大概是15億到20億美金，我們出口是逆差，所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講，應該說對他們經貿的貢獻是比較大，另外就是我們有很多基於，不管是教育、文化或者是各方面的交流，包括獎學金、包括各種農業，還有涉及到一些雙方面的互動，這些我們當然會基於對等的原則，我們會有所因應。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，所以最基本的原則其實是基於對等，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：基本上是在對等的認知下來研擬，如果我們不做對等策略的研擬，部長，可能會導致什麼結果？"],["林部長佳龍：那就是有可能會有骨牌效應，然後得寸進尺，我們國人也不會支持，所以我們一定是要據理力爭，最後它如果不遵守協議或法律，是它沒有辦法得到國內外輿論的支持。世界很大，想要跟臺灣交往的國家很多，跟我們如果良性循環，我們就增加互惠或者交往；如果沒有的話，我們可以找跟我們理念相近、利益更密切的國家來交往。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我給你一個建議，包括不管是對媒體或對社會、包括各不同的政黨，我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我覺得尤其我們在很多外交工作上面都必須基於對等的原則，所以這不是只是一個簡單的報復或者是什麼，而是基於對等的原則。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：如果沒有辦法用對等的原則來處理我們的外交工作的話，可能會造成什麼樣子國家利益的損害或者是有什麼負面的影響，我覺得這部分要講清楚。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員申翰：對等的概念不是只是一個口號，不是一個抽象的概念，我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚，才會知道我們處在這樣子的世界裡面，這當然是我們不樂意看到的，也對我們國家利益是個損害，可是基於對等原則，我們還是必須做出、規劃相關的反制，這部分的理由、它的正當性是什麼，我覺得要跟大家說明清楚，不是只是說我做了什麼，更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員申翰：但是我最後還是想提醒，部長，我們都知道，現在中國剛剛舉辦中菲合作論壇，它其實丟了將近3,600億人民幣，這個經費非常、非常大，所以我們心裡也有底，很可能會發生類似南非的狀況。現在這當然是一個案例，但確實有可能在其他國家還會發生，我們在心裡面知道還有可能發生，但發生的原因並不是因為臺灣做錯了什麼事情，而是中共霸道的行徑持續地還在擴大之中，這我們很清楚。可是對於接下來可能再發生的狀況，我自己最後還是建議，我覺得外交部還是要做好預先性的因應，而不是在一個、一個案例出來以後，大家覺得又一個、又一個，我覺得我們要把話講到前面，這當然是因為我們自己國際處境上面的困難，可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通，這不是我們做錯了什麼……"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情。我們堅守自己的主權，我們撐開自己的國際空間，但對不起，真的遇到了一個非常、非常霸道的惡鄰居在那個地方持續地……我們要把這件事情給講清楚，不是我們做錯什麼，不然我覺得現在可能有些社會或媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼、好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好，我還是希望部長要多費心在相關跟社會包括論述也好、說明也好，這部分是我們需要做的，部長，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，可以，非常同意。確實，其實世界之大，喜歡跟臺灣來往的，比如我們最近新設處的也有在印度的孟買，這個就是代表我們實質關係對彼此都很重要。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["林部長佳龍：以中、東歐國家來講，其實我們真正的外交關係是比一些邦交國、一般的都可能還要更密切。"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["林部長佳龍：所以我覺得我們的總和外交必須打破這種過去因為好像中共將我們矮化，我們就自我否定，不是！世界之大，我想都有臺灣發展的空間。"],["洪委員申翰：中共現在打壓我們的原因，是因為我們堅持自己的主權。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們堅持自己的主權是沒有錯的，今天它不打壓我們，只有一種可能，就是我們不堅持自己的主權了，它才可能停止對我們的打壓。我覺得這件事我們要跟社會表達清楚，這是我最後給部長的建議。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員申翰：我的時間到了，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：勇敢自信，世界同行。臺灣是世界的臺灣，我們也要走向世界，一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，部長請回。待會陳冠廷委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0519f2ffaa4d22319b7a8b6cc2b6ae9b7eccf4f5c33c47a58b6d5a35e119f76195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:53:17 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有請部長首先請教部長不管是用中華民國還是用台灣的名義我們有沒有要爭取加入聯合國還是要先爭取聯合國觀察員的資格再說呢"},{"start":26.738,"end":46.685,"text":"我們當然希望爭取成為聯合國正式的會員國那觀察員也是我們在努力的一個過程的目標那如果我們要爭取聯合國觀察員的資格那程序上是不是還需要由其他國家幫我們在聯合國大會上面提案呢"},{"start":48.905,"end":75.903,"text":"是 就是說我們當然包括他的秘書處吧這些作業那我們的每一次聯合國的大會也都會有我們的友邦為我們發聲至於說正式的申請這當然涉及到就是綜合因素的考量那跟時機跟方式"},{"start":76.946,"end":95.263,"text":"因為我看過去我們一直都是有一些關係比較好的有幫的國家願意幫我們提案但是想要實質通過加入聯合國的情況其實在票數上面還是還是要有一點相當的優勢所以部長那你覺得我們國家有這種優勢嗎"},{"start":97.423,"end":119.614,"text":"如果讓全世界的國家都基於他們本身自主的決定不受外在的壓力我想大家都很歡迎跟台灣做朋友這個是我們在外交上就發現說因為其實就是因為中共的壓力讓很多國家可能被迫或是說不敢去表達對我們的支持"},{"start":120.214,"end":120.615,"text":"李卓人議員李卓人議員"},{"start":137.974,"end":139.275,"text":"阿KEL 跟 UNFCCC 這四大組織涉及到不管是衛生、民航、安全、氣候變遷"},{"start":153.2,"end":179.991,"text":"190...幾個?"},{"start":181.972,"end":182.072,"text":"總共有53個"},{"start":208.37,"end":228.285,"text":"6個6個6個"},{"start":230.233,"end":230.853,"text":"南非有兩個啦,因為我們在開普敦"},{"start":241.199,"end":260.176,"text":"本席這邊有幫部長稍微整理一下表格就是聯合國193個裡面非洲如果是54個無大眾數目最多的但是我們來比例來看我們在比例來看每週有35個會員國裡面我們在16個國家都有住管比例是46%但是歐洲"},{"start":263.078,"end":284.753,"text":"就是我們這幾年嘛都是幾乎在外交經營的重心都是幾乎在歐洲所以比例上是52%連亞洲跟大洋洲只有44%那但是非洲如果是54個會員國只有大概5個6個在那邊住管這樣是不是表示非洲不是我們國家的外交經營的重心呢"},{"start":287.216,"end":292.258,"text":"因為這個比例是差太多了嘛,你看部長你看一下嘛,所以我們現在也面臨了現在非洲上面的問題,那是等一下我會再詢問這樣"},{"start":307.639,"end":327.329,"text":"那如果我們要爭取加入聯合國或者是退一步我們來說要爭取實質參與像剛才部長說的WHO還是IQ這些這兩個聯合國組織除了歐美國家之外是不是也努力爭取非洲國家的支持不然我們的提案要怎麼過呢"},{"start":329.84,"end":343.113,"text":"除了大國之外每一個國家都有一票當然也有這個安理會所謂的常任理事國否決權的問題不過我想幾乎啦我想以參加聯合國所屬的世界衛生組織"},{"start":345.017,"end":372.069,"text":"其實很多國家的發言都是支持但是我們之所以還沒有辦法參與就是一個對呀但是我們還是要面對這個問題嘛對不對對時機出現的時候就會就是有突破啊什麼時候是時機出現我們都沒有努力就會有時機出現大環境跟小環境啦我們這個大環境有時候我想國際情勢的變化有時候也是很快啊那機會來的時候我們要把握啊平常做好準備啊"},{"start":372.809,"end":385.757,"text":"其實本席可以理解因為外交部可能有其他的外交戰略的考量或許也有一些資源分配的考量但是千萬不要忘記我們在世界各地其實都有一些打拚的台商其實都是非常厲害的也非常認真而且幾乎都是默默的在為台灣拚外交就像剛才部長有說"},{"start":395.083,"end":398.466,"text":"其實他們長期在國外經商其實都有跟那些當地的官員往來像譬如哈羅台灣這種團體相信部長也是很熟悉他們都是一些努力在國外為台灣做國民外交的行銷台灣的台商然後另外還有像一些世界各地台商總會其實譬如我們非洲台商總會他們在非洲也深耕了很久"},{"start":420.365,"end":434.452,"text":"所以本席在這邊是不是建議部長未來在非洲的經營是不是也可以多跟這些當地台商一起合作外交部是不是應該也可以再深化跟台商這邊的共同合作一起在非洲行銷台灣爭取更多非洲國家在國際上對台灣的支持呢"},{"start":440.035,"end":440.395,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":457.654,"end":483.207,"text":"非洲我是覺得因為國家多我們必須要有一個區域的政策所以我也從過去所謂的非洲的計畫我們希望能夠有個加強版就是臺非共榮的計畫那區域性的從就是我們以這個斯瓦地尼是邦交國然後再分不管是東西南北非這樣區域"},{"start":485.097,"end":485.177,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":503.459,"end":504.8,"text":"蘭菲最近因為受到中國的利誘所以逼迫我們台灣把住管遷出首都"},{"start":519.89,"end":545.826,"text":"然後現在據我了解過去很長的一個時間我們台灣跟南非兩國其實都有很密切的外交關係來往所以我想部長應該是也是很清楚嘛然後在1997年南非跟我國斷交之後然後兩國的關係就開始持續的下滑了然後現在最難堪的就是連我們的住管都要要求我們搬遷那請問部長你覺得南非要求我們"},{"start":546.747,"end":547.129,"text":"是中共的問題是不是嗎是"},{"start":554.502,"end":575.91,"text":"所以其實這邊我們回顧一下中國與南非的關係我們現在來看這個事情其實是有跡可循的因為過去14年來中國都是南非最大的貿易夥伴南非也是中國在非洲最主要的出口國再加上9月初其實習近平已經跟南非的總統已經會面了還承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易逆差甚至簽了很多好多項的貿易還有技術合作的合作文件"},{"start":584.533,"end":610.378,"text":"據我分析認為讓南非願意加強對台灣外交施壓的關鍵也可能就是習近平承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易赤字那今年的南非總統以40%的得票率當選弱勢的總統那縮小貿易赤字對他們鄰居國內的支持是很有幫助的那目前對於南非的要求本席看到外交部是打算要做出一些反制的措施對不對"},{"start":612.929,"end":616.211,"text":"對所以這部分其實我想要建議部長我們應該還是要面臨這整個問題找出問題的根源來解決問題因為我現在是非常擔心欸非常擔心外交部如果真的動用手段會不會來反制南非那實際上是不是會讓我們兩國的關係更惡劣呢"},{"start":632.455,"end":637.238,"text":"而且現在剛才有部長也有說嘛說像我現在擔心的是10月30號也快到了剛剛部長有說有成立了應變小組在處理這個事情然後現在進度到底在哪裡呢而且到底外交部有沒有隨時的在追蹤呢這點其實我們都很想知道欸其實我們也是都很擔心的我們除了開會也有群組啊我們隨時跟第一線包括我們對南非的住管啊"},{"start":659.193,"end":686.399,"text":"我們也都保持聯繫我剛剛委員講其實所謂南非跟我們的經貿的關係雖然說大概就是一年大概十幾億的美金當然進出口其實我們是逆差的所以實際上對它影響是更大另外其實南非的整個國際的經貿它現在是債務國它受制於中國一帶一路之後變成很多債務的陷阱"},{"start":687.7,"end":697.301,"text":"所以站在其實南非的國家利益還是希望跟台灣維持關係那如果有外力介入當然少數的政治人物也許他自己厲害的考量"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時53分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["林委員憶君：首先請教部長，不管是用中華民國還是用臺灣的名義，我們有沒有要爭取加入聯合國，還是要先爭取聯合國觀察員的資格再說呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然希望爭取成為聯合國正式的會員國，那觀察員也是我們在努力的一個過程、目標。"],["林委員憶君：好。如果我們要爭取聯合國觀察員的資格，那程序上是不是還需要由其他國家幫我們在聯合國大會上面提案呢？"],["林部長佳龍：是，就是說當然包括它的秘書處的這些作業，那每一次聯合國的大會，也都會有我們的友邦為我們發聲，至於說正式的申請，這個涉及到綜合因素的考量，包括時機跟方式。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為我看過去一直都有一些關係比較好的友邦國家願意幫我們提案，但是想要實質通過加入聯合國的情況，其實在票數上面還是要有一點相當的優勢，所以部長，那你覺得我們國家有這種優勢嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：如果讓全世界的國家都基於他們本身自主的決定，不受外在的壓力，我想大家都很歡迎跟臺灣做朋友，我們在外交上就發現說，其實就是因為中共的壓力，讓很多國家可能被迫或是說不敢去表達對我們的支持，所以我們也需要，我們當然明白自助人助，我們自己要能夠壯大起來，也能夠對國際社會有貢獻，所以比如像聯合國的四大組織沒有臺灣加入，它就會出現破口，包括WHO，還有ICAO，還包括INTERPOL跟UNFCCC，這四大組織涉及到不管是衛生、民航安全或是氣候變遷跟國際刑警的合作，因為現在是全球化的時代，臺灣沒有參加其實對全球也不好，那為什麼臺灣沒有辦法參加？就是因為中國的反對嘛。"],["林委員憶君：好。那我接下來問部長一些問題，快問快答就好了。請問部長，聯合國總共有幾個會員國？"],["林部長佳龍：一百九十幾個？3？"],["林委員憶君：欸，部長，你連這個最基本的你都不清楚……"],["林部長佳龍：因為它也會變化。"],["林委員憶君：你現在是外交部長，你要多用功一點，要用心一點啊。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["林委員憶君：那你知道幾個嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：193個。"],["林委員憶君：193個加2個觀察員。那我再請教一下部長，聯合國在非洲有幾個會員國？"],["林部長佳龍：總共有53個。"],["林委員憶君：是53個嗎？應該是54個吧。欸，部長，你還是要用功一點……"],["林部長佳龍：就是因為有時候真的有一些情況會變化。"],["林委員憶君：好。那我們臺灣在非洲地方有幾個駐館？這個應該就比較簡單了吧，這個應該你比較清楚了吧。"],["林部長佳龍：我們有6個。"],["林委員憶君：6個？是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！6個。"],["林委員憶君：可是網站上面是5個，好啦！那這樣本席這邊有幫……"],["林部長佳龍：委員，象牙海岸有沒有，還是說……南非有兩個啦，因為我們在開普敦。"],["林委員憶君：好啦，本席這邊有幫部長稍微整理一下表格，聯合國193個會員國裡面，非洲如果是54個，是五大洲中數目最多的，但是我們按比例來看喔，按比例來看，美洲35個會員國裡面，我們在16個國家都有駐館，比例是46%；歐洲的部分，我們這幾年外交經營的重心幾乎都在歐洲，所以歐洲有駐館的比例是52%；連亞洲跟大洋洲都只有44%；但是非洲有54個會員國，我們在當地只有大概5、6個駐館，這樣是不是表示非洲不是我們國家外交經營的重心呢？"],["林部長佳龍：也是我們很重要的地區，那當然因為每個區域的狀況都有不一樣……"],["林委員憶君：因為這個比例真的差太多了，你看看，部長，你看一下，所以我們現在也面臨在非洲方面的問題，那個等一下我會再來詢問。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["林委員憶君：如果我們要爭取加入聯合國，或者是退一步來說，我們要爭取實質參與，像剛才部長說的WHO還是ICAO這兩個聯合國的組織，除了歐美國家之外，是不是也要努力爭取非洲國家的支持，不然我們的提案要怎麼過呢？"],["林部長佳龍：是。除了大國之外，每個國家都有一票，當然也有安理會所謂常任理事國否決權的問題，不過我想幾乎啦，以參加聯合國所屬的世界衛生組織來說，其實很多國家的發言都是支持的，但是我們之所以還沒有辦法參與，就是一個中共的阻撓……"],["林委員憶君：對啊，但是我們還是要面對這個問題嘛，對不對？所以據我……"],["林部長佳龍：對，時機一出現的時候就會突破。"],["林委員憶君：什麼時候是時機出現？我們都沒有努力，就會有時機出現？"],["林部長佳龍：這要看大環境跟小環境，大環境有時候我想國際情勢的變化，有時候也是很快，機會來的時候我們要把握，平常要做好準備。"],["林委員憶君：好。其實本席可以理解，因為外交部可能有其他的外交戰略的考量，或許也有一些資源分配的考量，但是千萬不要忘記了，我們在世界各地其實都有一些打拼的臺商，其實都是非常厲害的，也非常認真，而且幾乎都是默默的在為臺灣拼外交，就像剛才部長有說嘛，其實他們長期在國外經商，其實都有跟那些當地的官員往來，譬如Hello Taiwan這種團體，相信部長也是很熟悉啦。"],["林部長佳龍：對，江理事長。"],["林委員憶君：他們都是一些努力在國外為臺灣做國民外交、行銷臺灣的臺商。另外還有像一些世界各地臺商總會，譬如我們非洲臺商總會，他們在非洲也深耕了很久，所以本席在這邊建議部長，未來在非洲的經營上，是不是也可以多跟這些當地臺商一起合作？外交部是不是應該也可以再深化跟臺商這邊的共同合作，一起在非洲行銷臺灣，爭取更多非洲國家在國際上對臺灣的支持呢？"],["林部長佳龍：是，其實我不管在什麼樣的身分，我都很重視跟世界的臺商，特別包括非洲的臺商會，那一天委員也有出席他們在臺灣辦的大會，歷屆的這些總會長，我們都有很頻繁的交流合作。那非洲我是覺得因為國家多，我們必須要有一個區域的政策，所以我也從過去所謂的非洲計畫，我們希望能夠有個加強版，就是臺非共榮的計畫，那區域性的，我們以史瓦帝尼是邦交國，然後再分不管是中、東、西、南、北非這樣區域的一個政策，去做好我們對非洲邦交的關係。比如我們有一些駐處，像我們在索馬利蘭，我們其實在東非裡面扮演一個很重要的角色，很多國家可能跟它沒有邦交，反而需要透過跟我們的合作來加強跟史瓦帝尼的關係。"],["林委員憶君：部長，我都知道啦，但是現在我們就是面臨到問題了嘛，所以接下來我就是要詢問一下非洲外交的問題，因為剛才很多委員都有提到，南非最近因為受到中國的利誘，所以逼迫我們臺灣把駐館遷出首都。據我了解，過去很長一段時間，我們臺灣跟南非兩國其實都有很密切的外交關係來往，我想部長應該也很清楚。在1997年，南非跟我國斷交之後，兩國的關係就開始持續下滑了，現在最難堪的就是連我們的駐館都被要求搬遷。請問部長，你覺得南非要求我們遷離駐館最主要的原因是什麼呢？是中共的問題？是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["林委員憶君：我們回顧一下中國與南非的關係，我們現在來看這個事情，其實是有跡可循的，因為過去十四年來，中國都是南非最大的貿易夥伴，南非也是中國在非洲最主要的出口國，再加上9月初其實習近平已經跟南非的總統會面了，還承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易逆差，甚至簽了好多項的貿易還有技術合作的合作文件。據我分析，認為讓南非願意加強對臺灣外交施壓的關鍵，也可能就是習近平承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易赤字。今年的南非總統以40%的得票率當選弱勢的總統，那縮小貿易赤字對他們凝聚國內的支持是很有幫助的。目前對於南非的要求，本席看到外交部是打算要做出一些反制的措施，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["林委員憶君：所以這部分我想要建議部長，我們應該還是要面臨這整個問題，找出問題的根源來解決問題，因為我現在非常擔心外交部如果真的動用手段來反制南非，那實際上是不是會讓我們兩國的關係更惡劣呢？而且剛才部長也有說嘛，我現在擔心的是10月30號也快到了，剛才部長說有成立了應變小組在處理這個事情，現在進度到底在哪裡呢？到底外交部有沒有隨時在追蹤呢？這點其實我們都很想知道，我們也是都很擔心的。"],["林部長佳龍：我們除了開會也有群組，我們隨時跟第一線包括我們對南非的駐館，我們也都保持聯繫。我剛剛跟委員講，其實所謂南非跟我們的經貿關係，一年大概十幾億的美金，當然進出口，其實我們是逆差的，所以實際上對它影響是更大。另外，其實南非的整個國際經貿，它現在是債務國，它受制於中國，一帶一路之後，變成很多債務的陷阱，所以站在南非的國家利益，還是應該跟臺灣維持關係，如果有外力介入，當然少數的政治人物，也許他自己利害的考量，但是跟多數的，南非包括所有他們的民意都認為，為什麼跟臺灣的關係都運作的還算平順，那怎麼26年的關係要刻意……而且南非應該是不結盟的國家，怎麼會做人家的……好像是人家的這個……中共的打手一樣，這個其實已經引起了很多的反彈，所以我們現在也是透過這個時間在廣泛的跟各界溝通。"],["林委員憶君：部長，我還是想請問一下，如果10月30號你們應變的話，你們有沒有……如果還是沒有進展，會怎麼樣處理呢？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們是有所謂雙邊關係的架構，那也必須要協商，這不是它單方面可以決定的，如果它訴諸非法的行動，我們當然也會捍衛我們的權利，但我們也會重視我們駐館人員的安全，還有我們僑民的領務服務，我們必須要兼顧。剛剛有委員包括黃仁委員提到，我們當然有其他的駐處，也是可以有一些功能，所以我們都做好各種的方案，希望還有轉圜的餘地，但是如果對方還是一意孤行，那我們會基於對等的原則來做應處。"],["林委員憶君：好，其實我還是希望外交部要盡各種的努力，要想辦法維持我們和南非的友好關係，甚至或許會增加非洲其他國家的駐館，增加臺灣的外交空間，我想這是外交部必須要努力的。"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們總合外交，當然實質外交的功能我們都還是會希望維護，但是因為涉及到我們不能夠不對等，我們一定要基於這個原則，因為外交還是一個互惠對等的國家的行為，這一點我們一定會來捍衛，也感謝包括外交及國防委員會的委員們對我們的支持跟勉勵。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝我們林憶君委員的發言，接下來由洪申翰委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f067ec3f9667059ccfb7a8b6cc2b6ae9b750be7fc235aa971100665548fbcbefd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:38:29 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"政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們"},{"start":56.607,"end":80.247,"text":"那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼"},{"start":82.472,"end":109.883,"text":"我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形"},{"start":111.001,"end":126.404,"text":"因為現在的ANC就是南非的這個執政黨它是一個聯合政府也有包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的"},{"start":127.13,"end":127.73,"text":"所以部長沒關係部長"},{"start":144.463,"end":147.985,"text":"因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出"},{"start":172.964,"end":178.449,"text":"我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產"},{"start":191.442,"end":192.043,"text":"我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制?"},{"start":214.588,"end":214.688,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":231.109,"end":247.94,"text":"市長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嗎我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做"},{"start":249.04,"end":273.842,"text":"當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好"},{"start":276.479,"end":276.559,"text":"主席"},{"start":293.2,"end":306.696,"text":"要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做 比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管你要不要簽"},{"start":308.661,"end":312.342,"text":"所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分"},{"start":333.507,"end":339.152,"text":"我跟委員講我們都做好應變的對策但是現在的很多的聲音會出來比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨還有國會議員跟媒體的報導其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動"},{"start":350.908,"end":353.632,"text":"市長我們還有期待的意思啦是不是因為你從去年沒有從去年你這個最後我們就是據理力爭人家就對我們這樣啊你這都不敢說人家就叫你洗澡啊"},{"start":367.009,"end":367.169,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":388.854,"end":390.996,"text":"剛剛有委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備"},{"start":404.523,"end":407.806,"text":"我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才"},{"start":431.986,"end":434.412,"text":"他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加"},{"start":437.115,"end":462.944,"text":"對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎"},{"start":467.646,"end":495.783,"text":"我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛"},{"start":496.283,"end":524.246,"text":"另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交"},{"start":525.467,"end":533.042,"text":"什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量"},{"start":534.209,"end":540.193,"text":"他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎我們過去沒有面臨這麼多我們就是害怕我們的權益"},{"start":561.167,"end":563.828,"text":"也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對尼加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的"},{"start":585.234,"end":599.317,"text":"至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使"},{"start":612.859,"end":613.659,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":635.248,"end":635.288,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":655.08,"end":655.12,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":678.098,"end":704.537,"text":"其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的"},{"start":706.358,"end":707.239,"text":"目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?"},{"start":733.351,"end":733.411,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":747.729,"end":760.315,"text":"報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供現在進度怎麼樣,送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嘛,多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整資料提供你會後提供給我們有多少數量,他從台灣採購嗎?"},{"start":777.612,"end":804.371,"text":"他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會"},{"start":805.151,"end":806.292,"text":"請把所有的相關的資料給我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["馬委員文君：部長早安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的部分，我想請教一下，外交部駐南非代表處在南非的政府要求之下，10月30號以前就要遷館，對這個部分，目前我們的具體作法是什麼？因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家。剛剛也特別提到說，其實像G7的一些國家，因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛！對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["馬委員文君：G7國家也有協助我們，那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼？因為我們一直說理念相近的國家，這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好，尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家，所以如果像這樣的事情，我們沒有辦法獲得解決，最大的問題是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力，不然的話，這個已經26年以來運作好好的嘛！我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家，但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是領務，那為什麼會從去年以來，這個就是有跡可循。可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形，因為現在的ANC，就是南非的執政黨，它是一個聯合政府，也有包括DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨，有些對我們是友好的，它也沒有經過跟它的聯合政府諮商，就是這些政黨之間的諮商，又違約、片面撕毀協議，所以這個是很不正常嘛！這過程當中，我們大概盡了很多的努力……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，部長，因為我們也透過G7的國家，我相信包括美國跟我們也是從有史以來關係最好的一個時候，然後我們也透過各種的努力，顯然包括他們對我們友好的，不管是他們國會或者相關友好的對象也好，其實顯然都使不上力。到目前為止，我們10月30號是不是要遷出？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是據理力爭，捍衛我們的權益。"],["馬委員文君：怎麼樣據理力爭？因為我們要知道，當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候，我們外交部或政府應該怎麼做？外交部在維護南非駐館的產權還有國家的尊嚴之下，我們比較想要知道，我們是決定要撤館還是要屈從南非政府要求遷館，我們外交部目前怎麼做？因為你說到11月，可是現在它要你10月30號就要做出決定，那我們要怎麼做，吞下去還是要反制？"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經有成立應變小組，也做好各種應變的對策，隨著事件的發展，我們會妥善的因應，基本上外交是要對等互惠……"],["馬委員文君：它已經對我們不對等了，所以我們應該要怎麼做？"],["林部長佳龍：如果有企圖傷害我們，我們也一樣都有對等的立場來做應處。"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為10月30號馬上就到了，不可能明天就10月30號了，你到今天晚上才做決定嘛！我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做，要反制還是要吞下去，我們要不要遷？部長，讓我們知道我們要怎麼做，當我們面對一個一個接下來……","不管是邦交國也好，非邦交國也好，這個已經跟我們二十幾年的交情，雖然沒有邦交，可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的，在很多的包括我們僑界或者在國內的一些相關人士、重要的人士，在南非都有相當的耕耘跟影響力，我們要怎麼做？部長告訴我們這個就好。"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們都有應變的方案，我剛剛講對等是基本的原則，所以它如果要叫我們遷，我們當然也會有相應的作為……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們叫他們遷？"],["林部長佳龍：那他們其他不友善的行為……因為到底他們除了要求遷館，還有沒有其他的壓迫行為，我們也都還在做因應。"],["馬委員文君：還有什麼？它現在要求的是遷館，我們就遷館來看，如果他要求我們遷館，我們要不要遷？"],["林部長佳龍：它於法無據啊！"],["馬委員文君：以前尼加拉瓜，我們的財產被人家侵占……"],["林部長佳龍：所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家，它是一個民主的國家……"],["馬委員文君：對，會怎麼做嘛！沒關係，部長……"],["林部長佳龍：世界民主運動都要在南非舉行……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，不要講世界民主，我們現在面對的是南非，我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題，外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴？請告訴我關於這個部分。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員講，我們都做好應變的對策，但是現在很多的聲音會出來，比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨，還有國會議員跟媒體的報導，其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還有期待的意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不以為然，甚至表示引以為恥……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們還有期待的意思啦，是不是？因為你從去年已經知道……"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是奮戰到……據理力爭。"],["馬委員文君：人家就這樣對我們了，你都不敢說，人家就叫你移走了，你今天不是對大陸的時候也很大聲，我們不是也應該要維持尊嚴嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我已經跟委員講了我們對等的原則，它要我們遷，我們當然也會要它遷，這是基本的。我是覺得我們現在這個時間讓各種聲音都出來，其實南非很多人對於他們外交部的這種行為是不以為然，甚至媒體還引以為恥。"],["馬委員文君：部長，不以為然還是做了。剛剛有委員提到，我們不要軍備然後什麼都是指責國內的，錯！我們不是不要軍備，是不要無效的軍備，我們希望國防強大，我們需要我們的外交在國外、在全世界各地受到尊重，即使我們沒有邦交也應該受到尊重。我們以2021年跟臺灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例，當時駐臺代表曾經是臺灣培育出來的高階人才，我們花了很多的國家資源幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才，他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧蒂嘉對我們蔡總統情同姐妹，臺灣更是尼加拉瓜的摯友，可是在斷交的時候，完全翻臉不認人。他的政府不但下令沒收臺灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外館資產，而且直接就轉移到大陸手上去了，那時候外交部說要訴訟，我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣？有提訴訟嗎？有提嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們請同仁再瞭解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展。不過，就南非這個例子因為在發展中，我們現在就是據理力爭捍衛我們的權益，也尋求各方的支持，我相信這個也有一定的壓力，因為它現在是聯合政府，必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議，所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序，因為今年才大選嘛！另外就是他們國內外的力量，他們發現其實臺灣是一個所謂良善的力量，26年來運作得好的，為什麼要這樣子把雙邊的關係片面的毀約……"],["馬委員文君：部長，如果這個有效的話之前就有效，現在南非政府就不會這麼做。每一個國家……我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號，你說價值外交、經貿外交、同盟外交，或者是總合外交，不管是「XX」外交、什麼樣的口號，到最後每一個國家其實都是以自身國家的利益為最高的考量。之前菲律賓……"],["林部長佳龍：他們國家很多人也不認為這是他們最高的國家利益，所以我們還是……"],["馬委員文君：可是人家就是叫你遷了嘛！如果你到現在還在執著這個部分，可見我們要求G7……"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有做好應變的方案。"],["馬委員文君：應變？如果人家要求的話，你也只能遷，或者也要求它遷，這樣是我們有利外交的一個方向嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他們這樣做是損人不利己嘛！"],["馬委員文君：我們過去沒有面臨這麼多……損人不利己？對它來說也許……"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是捍衛權益，然後還是據理力爭。"],["馬委員文君：部長，聽我講完。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：因為你們花的是國家人民的預算，所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個辭藻的時候，我們看到的是邦交國不斷地失去，我們面對尼加拉瓜這樣的邦交國，甚至我們的財產都保不住。現在面對與我們二十幾年友好的，至少有往來的，關係還不錯的國家，也用這樣的方式對待我們，可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷地發生。我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬、高壓措施的時候，你也應該要知道外交應該要怎麼做，至少應該在實質上……就像其他國家，即使在不進步的國家，都知道要維持自己國家的利益，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，外交有攻防啦！比如說我們最近在印度孟買就新設處啊！很多的中東歐國家，其實它跟我們的關係比一般邦交國家還好，外交的豁免很多啊！"],["馬委員文君：怎麼好，你有提供資源嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這些就是我們的國力的呈現啊！因為我們臺灣民主，而且我們有這麼好的經濟……"],["馬委員文君：部長，中東歐國家我們提供了多少資源？好，現在提到這些國家，我們剛剛說因為不希望我們面臨到這樣的困境，這對我們來說不是只有外交部會覺得羞辱，我們所有的國人都一樣，所以我們不是在這裡要特別指責，而是你的作法應該要怎麼樣維護國家最大的利益，讓我們可以走出去，而且可以抬頭挺胸。從過去到現在，我們一直、一直、一直在國際上面的地位，甚至被矮化，除非拿著很多的資源，拿著很多的錢，到某些國家或者對某些對象的時候，可以高高在上……其他的，我們的外交陷入更大的困境當中，這是我們今天要特別提出來的。","我現在也要特別再請教一下部長，「有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係」備忘錄的這個部分，當時我們說6月份捷克……因為我們是把所有的錢──1,000萬美金都交給捷克，我們要求它三分之一要採購臺灣這些醫療相關物資，目前已經送過去了嗎？進度怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：都有如期在進行，我請歐洲司長說明一下這個案子，我有特別關心，目前在進行……"],["馬委員文君：因為我們所有的錢希望花在刀口上，尤其這個是給烏克蘭使用的，因為我們要幫助的是烏克蘭所有需要幫助的部分，尤其在醫療需求上面，所以我們很關切想知道後面的進度怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：對，像包括燒燙傷中心、他們兒童的醫療……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我現在想要知道的是跟臺灣採購的部分，現在進度怎麼樣？"],["黃司長鈞耀：報告委員，我們對於臺灣採購的品項清單，其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過，我們都有提供，也都依據……"],["馬委員文君：現在進度怎麼樣，送過去了嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：那個部分是他們採購，採購的……"],["馬委員文君：他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：對。"],["馬委員文君：你必須要掌握，已經有了嘛！多少數量？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我可不可以事後彙整資料提供？"],["馬委員文君：會後提供給我們有多少數量，它從臺灣採購嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：它是在歐洲採購，但是有直接跟臺灣的供應商聯繫。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還是幫忙臺灣在歐洲的供應商就是了？"],["黃司長鈞耀：對。"],["馬委員文君：因為當時你們是說要跟臺灣採購，可是顯然現在講的是不太一樣？"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，採購方式如同前幾次在委員質詢有報告過……"],["馬委員文君：包括跟哪一個歐洲廠商採購的，麻煩你把資料給我們委員會，好不好？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我們儘量……"],["馬委員文君：不是儘量……"],["黃司長鈞耀：會後儘快……"],["馬委員文君：請把所有相關的資料給我們，好不好？"],["黃司長鈞耀：是。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},{"id":"155792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0f6f2aaade4d4f367b7a8b6cc2b6ae9b750be7fc235aa971120552088245ce1945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:10:13 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這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管 因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的自然就是會 因為在第一線攻防嘛 那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家 大家來這個共同的應處"},{"start":697.125,"end":725.535,"text":"謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事"},{"start":727.472,"end":740.236,"text":"新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個"},{"start":742.202,"end":762.126,"text":"指自我檢查,如果發生這些事情,我們當然如果瞭解說,我們會看怎麼樣來協助,也來做好因應。對,因為怕說他可能現在單一個案,但之後怕是有系統性的。那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者,他能夠有力量,我覺得是非常重要的一件事,那不然的話,"},{"start":762.606,"end":791.022,"text":"他今天寫個稿他今天只是因為違反把台灣這個字寫出來就變成他以後就不能再做了這個其實對這又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭確實委員中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化觀光也要武器化你要去中國做研究他也把你這些學者要控制你你的研究然後限制這些媒體就是說他真的是這個好像幽靈一樣無所不在"},{"start":791.662,"end":807.518,"text":"所以這個已經不是台灣的問題而已這是全世界面對到中共這種數位集權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括"},{"start":808.018,"end":809.279,"text":"謝謝部長,外交部也必須要迎戰,謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長，不好意思，看到桌上還有文件，我嚇一跳。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：你好。因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情，所以我想說我就比較簡略，我問一些其他的事情，這次它要求要把辦事處遷出首都，其實我比較好奇的是這一件事情大概是什麼時候發生的？"],["林部長佳龍：在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及，今年4月的時候提出限期半年我們要遷館，到了10月7號更是以電函要求。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我看報導是10月17號，所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情，所以才會再度被報導出來，剛剛部長講的是10月7號的時候它又再要求一次限期一定要遷出首都這樣嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。因為這件事情畢竟發生的時間比較長，這中間到底有沒有威脅，就是有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的，這個其實是外交部在盤點的，這邊我就不細問。但我現在比較擔心的事情就是，像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多？譬如說，我們新設了駐孟買的辦事處，中國的外交部也是提出要嚴正交涉；然後再來就是這一次，這個也是稍微往前一點，因為外交部上個禮拜沒有過來，它是說蒙古說因為鼠疫疫情，使國慶酒會臨時取消，有關這件事情，請問目前的進度為何？"],["林部長佳龍：我們其實有召見它駐臺的代表，另外也跟他們交涉中，因為這個事情，他們以我們辦國慶酒會的現場，說疑似有什麼樣的事故而封鎖起來，所以沒辦法進去，因此也就被迫取消。但是這件事情我想不只對於我們臺灣，對於蒙古本身作為一個獨立自主的國家，它怎麼去面對中國的壓力，在這種情況之下用這樣的理由，我想當然會影響他們國家的形象嘛。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是我現在比較擔心的就是，因為他們現在不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由，就用一些譬如說有疾病什麼等等之類的，這會造成我們在反制上面的困難，像南非這個是很直接，它說要叫我們遷出首都，但如果說今天是用一個比較灰色的方式，用這樣各式各樣、看起來好像又可以接受的理由，那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，沒有一個國家會宣稱自己國家有鼠疫吧？這個壓力多大，或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害，我想可能對於蒙古更大吧！我們當然都妥善因應中，該召見我們就召見，抗議，然後要求他們說明。其實中共從我們今年初總統大選到總統副總統就職典禮，到我們雙十國慶的活動，它的打壓包括要求我們遷處改名，另外就是阻擾我們辦的活動，還有相關的施壓動作很多，我們都密切關注，而且把它分類並妥善因應，有一些我們就透過事先的努力，也可以做一些預防或阻止；但是有一些，我想因為它受制於中國的威脅利誘，在這種情況之下，我們怎麼樣捍衛我們國家的利益，基本上就是基於我們對等的原則，在從事外交的行動，這是我們基本的原則。"],["沈委員伯洋：我個人是認為，因為我們外交上能夠反制的方式本來就沒那麼多，今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心，這其實跟外交部無關，是國防部，國防部有一些情報員的財產個資外流，這在我們的外館也有可能會出現，因為這有兩種情形，一種可能就是駭客攻擊，這部分我之前在質詢的時候已經有說過必須要加強資安等等之類的；但這一次比較不一樣的是，按照這個新聞報導，也有可能是內部的流出，就是內部造冊等等之類的。因為這才剛剛就是今天才出現的新聞，不知道外交部對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下？不管是從資安方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面，因為這可能會變成另外一種威脅方式。"],["林部長佳龍：是，資安就是國安，在外交部尤其如此，所以除了我們資安處全面在做一些檢視跟檢討，我們對外館，因為它所處的地方有時候有些不是我們完全能夠掌握的，我們也去做檢查、去改善，所以這個部分是我們業務的重點，因為任何外交部涉及到的這些情報或資訊都會影響國家安全，我們會非常重視，妥善地檢視我們現在的資安情形，然後做好改善，發生事故的時候，我們的應變標準作業程序，我們也不斷地在做演練。"],["沈委員伯洋：我現在擔心的就是，因為我們現在都知道資安重要，然後資安也越做越好，但有時候反而不是資安，可能是在造冊上……"],["林部長佳龍：其實資安有些涉及到人安。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，所以這方面拜託部長，因為我知道外交人員更容易被針對，尤其在外館的部分如果有相關情事的話，變成我們在做反制的時候它會有一些威脅條件，這對我們會非常地不利。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來這是俄羅斯的事情，這個稍微又再更早以前，前面是俄羅斯駭客攻擊我們的單位，這是一件事，後來俄羅斯在9月的時候有發布價值觀敵對的國家，目前這件事情的進度為何？當時除了是說我們當然是不認同它這樣的處置之外，現在接下來的進度是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：好，因為這不是第一次，我們第一時間也做了回應，現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來跟委員說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。"],["賀司長忠義：跟委員報告，俄羅斯是9月20號發布價值觀敵對國家的名單，包含了47個民主國家，也把臺灣列在裡面，其實它是針對民主國家之前對它的一些它認為不友善的態度，它做了一個反制，目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處密切注意它的發展，其實在這個名單公布之後，它另外有一個方向，就是鼓勵這些國家的民眾可以申請到俄羅斯居留，那它後續實際的進行是什麼樣的方式，我們的駐處也隨時在密切觀察中。"],["沈委員伯洋：這邊就提醒一下，因為我們之前面臨中國的法律戰，這個部分外交部當然是非常熟悉，因為現在北韓跟俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切，接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係，今天在打這個法律戰的時候，中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰，它會有其他的協助，我們目前是看到資訊上的合作、駭客上的合作，外交上的合作現在也慢慢要產生了，所以這個部分我覺得可能是今年我們特別需要注意的，因為一般來講我們對俄羅斯的警覺心並沒有那麼地強，這方面希望……因為接下來一定會發生很多事情，再請多加關注俄羅斯的行動。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來這是一個比較小的問題，紐約之前那個高官間諜活動，就是去擋我們，說我們的官員去那邊能夠見誰什麼等等之類的；另外，簡報左上角這邊的報導有提到60萬間諜大軍，有關間諜大軍這一塊，它已經說就是有60萬的間諜大軍，他們的情報網滲透全球。當然其實臺灣內部也非常多，但是我們現在要看的就是，當然僑委會可能會面臨到非常多，尤其他們本來就很喜歡接觸我們的僑界，但是外交部也會遇到，現在外交部跟僑委會之間在針對這些中國統戰方面的作為大概是如何？"],["林部長佳龍：中國對於國外的滲透，包括資訊操作，包括很多這些情報人員，事實上，隨著它力量的擴張，包括一帶一路的投資，或是它針對一些僑社的操弄，確實陸續有些案件發生，甚至有組織帶他們編制裡面的一些工作隊，就是涉及到對我們……相對來講，比如說在一些國家我們商社或僑社的滲透，我們是從情報中都有發現，它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、蒐集跟操作。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員，他必須要去協助，他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何，那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例，他現在非常針對我們也有在蒐集情報的人員，他也有針對我們外館的人，因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話，可能被反將一軍，以及有越來越多暗網上面他們就喜歡用這些外交部，還有比如說今天在外館裡面可能有人在幫忙蒐集情報，結果這個情報人員的e-mail外洩什麼等等之類的，用這樣的方式去造成對我們一些資訊上的攻擊，然後由臺灣的內部媒體去帶一些輿論，所以這整件事情都是一套的，希望外交部能夠多加注意。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員也分享一個資訊，他們在推動所謂安全絲路，因為一帶一路很多投資所在之地其實就在蒐集情報，而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸，這個已經都影響到很多當地國家的包括不管是經濟，甚至民主政治的運作，也引起很多國家的關切，所以這個是所謂的安全絲路，也是值得我們重視。我們也透過我們外館，因為外館也是我們可以做情報蒐集的，自然就是會……因為在第一線攻防，我們也有這些寶貴的情報，也會跟我們理念相近國家大家來共同應處。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。今天因為很久沒有問外交部了，所以問題稍微比較雜一點。最後一個問題，我們看到有記者報導說，因為有一些媒體他可能是freelance，可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿，結果有些外國媒體說臺灣不能寫臺灣，要寫「那個島嶼」，外交部其實是有所回應，我們有看到發言人。我想知道一下，這件事情有沒有後續？因為這個對我們來講，其實是非常嚴重的一件事。"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們是捍衛新聞的自由，我們希望不要有紅色恐怖，以前講白色恐怖，造成這些記者媒體的自我檢查，如果有發生這些事情，當然如果我們瞭解，我們會看怎麼樣來協助，也來做好因應。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為就是怕說他現在可能是單一個案，之後他是有系統性的，如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者能夠有力量，我覺得是非常重要的一件事。不然的話，他今天寫個稿，他今天只是因為違反把臺灣這個字寫出來，就變成他以後就不能再做了，這個其實又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭。"],["林部長佳龍：確實，中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化，經貿也要武器化、觀光也要武器化，你要去中國做研究，他也要控制這些學者的研究，然後限制這些媒體，就是它真的是好像幽靈一樣無所不在，所以這個已經不是臺灣的問題而已，這是全世界面對到中共這種數位極權的操控所導致的威脅，我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應，這是為什麼臺灣現在要推動我們總合外交，包括價值外交、同盟外交跟經貿外交，外交已經不限於傳統所謂的邦交之間的關係，非傳統的戰爭模式，包括灰色地帶跟混合戰，都是我們要來做好因應，跟理念相近國家的合作。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，外交部也必須要迎戰。謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，部長請回。接下來我們請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_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now還是是現在而已還是一直下去"},{"start":65.871,"end":86.401,"text":"如果南非是一個法治國家他應該遵守雙方的協議如果有一些這個涉及到對我們管住人員安全或者是因為領悟事務的正常進行造成這個重大的影響的時候我們當然也會有因應的做法那個管住是我們的財產嗎是是我們買的嗎對我們有沒有做財產保全的準備有"},{"start":93.194,"end":119.233,"text":"細節內容怎麼準備我就不細問了我請教因為我們曾經發生過奈及利亞事件當時他們也是就是叫你我那牽的更遠他牽到800多公里以外那個約翰尼斯堡跟普利托亞還差了大概一個小時以內車程不塞車的話當時奈及利亞變成他們的政府派派警察派武裝警察等於把我們趕出首都圈"},{"start":120.885,"end":149.236,"text":"在南非會不會發生到這個狀況我們已經成立應變小組會做各種對策的準備那因為我們是如果說國家之間的法律規定他必須要來遵守現在是你判斷他的原因是什麼因為在稍早不久前中國舉辦的中非合作論壇"},{"start":150.731,"end":175.738,"text":"那南非現在執政黨ANC的總統跑到北京去那去年這個金磚集團在南非辦活動習近平還專機到了那個地方現在南非突然間毀壞了他們自己所簽的協定不遵守他們跟我們簽署的法律文件你判斷發生這個事件是為什麼為什麼在現在"},{"start":177.519,"end":189.067,"text":"確實因為過去26年來都算是相安無事也是很正常在運作那從去年以來確實兩次的峰會那他們的外交部對我們持續的施壓"},{"start":192.689,"end":193.269,"text":"講到外國的施壓我先講他們內部"},{"start":219.082,"end":242.88,"text":"因為ANC現在佔400席國會議員裡面159席並沒有過半所以他的執政聯盟是結合了DA嘛叫做民主聯盟嘛那DA有87席我看到DA民主聯盟有發表聲明要求執政黨要遵守法律不可以這樣對台灣那這個部分會不會有些成果"},{"start":244.244,"end":271.898,"text":"因為他聯合政府嘛就像說DA的這個國會議員跟他們的這個外交事務的發言人所講的你沒有經過內閣會議那新政府剛剛組成怎麼會片面的就是強迫台灣圈館所以他要求要經過內閣會議共同決議嘛所以這個事情他們內部有些問題那講完內部我來問外部他受到外部因素影響當中國北京一直施壓圍堵台灣這個是公開秘密的"},{"start":273.092,"end":291.039,"text":"我們也是有朋友的吼目前你有尋求就是說就我知道像美國的台北法案有把他們的外交的工具箱裡面的所有工具要跟台灣合作綁在一起目前我們台灣的外交部有沒有尋求自由民主聯盟的國家來協助"},{"start":291.667,"end":320.551,"text":"我們持續都在尋求跟他們溝通然後也獲得他們的協助其實這個已經是過去至少這半年來很頻繁包括美國日本G7的國家美國日本G7國家有接收到我方的訊息他們有沒有出手協助我們這件事件有向這個南非政府表達他們的關切G7美日這些國家都有"},{"start":320.891,"end":349.826,"text":"每日跟G7的一些國家但是當然具體的國家他們表達的這個情況我就不在這裡說明那G7以外的主要國家有沒有也有像這個其實歐洲很多理念相近一些人權的國家歐洲相關的國家也有對包括中東歐方便透露讓我們知道好朋友是誰捷克捷克有還有沒有其實還有他們都有因為其實這些住"},{"start":350.936,"end":377.613,"text":"在地的大使館之間啊他們也會交換意見這些國家駐南非的使館替台灣發聲然後南非內部執政聯盟的第二大黨也有表達意見然後我們現在國家態度是我不搬你違法你違反1997年簽的法律所以現在狀況是這樣子嘛那我方的反制作為之前我要問一下當然對南非動手我們就要想到隔壁的史瓦帝尼嘛"},{"start":378.573,"end":383.959,"text":"這件事情對史瓦帝尼跟臺灣我們目前在非洲唯一的官方正式邦交國有沒有影響?"},{"start":386.452,"end":409.494,"text":"我們當然是有警覺到這可能都是一連串的就是要打壓我們外交的行動所以我們已經會加強跟斯瓦帝尼的這個外交關係以外阻止這個事情的擴散而且還在發展中斯瓦帝尼目前還是用南非幣"},{"start":410.835,"end":434.537,"text":"那南非州五個國家賴索托阿布拉巴其實當然南非佔的權重很大所以我要提醒我們外交部都不容易我也知道你們都很辛苦但這個局勢絕對不會是沒事突然間叫你遷出首都到約翰尼斯堡50分鐘而已實質的影響不大但是他後續會不會有其他效應我們外交不要注意那我們有沒有反制作為"},{"start":435.865,"end":436.025,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":451.909,"end":452.429,"text":"劇本的想定跟因應"},{"start":478.934,"end":499.472,"text":"但是我們還是有能力做出維護國家尊嚴的動作更重要的美國跟台灣現在的關係在外交上是合作的美國有一個AGOA的會議那個是協助非洲發展的南非其實是很仰賴這個事情所以美國的他們現在選舉那他們的國會議員以及11月5號選完總統之後"},{"start":505.297,"end":528.107,"text":"對於南非這件事情我們台灣應該要跟美國我們的好朋友提出AGOA的審查應該把南非這個不友善的態度列入我們外交部對這件事情怎麼看?確實齁所謂AGOA就是非洲機會及成長法案那這是美國很重要的對非洲的政策對他牽涉到晶圓啊協助啊很多事情"},{"start":528.989,"end":544.634,"text":"我們的了解事實上也有我們支持台灣很關心這個事件的包括國會議員他們也都有針對這個事情其實先前也有過一些發言"},{"start":547.561,"end":561.07,"text":"最近的發展應該會引起各界的注意跟因應我本來是希望就是說事情不要往最壞的程度發展能夠有所轉還畢竟這麼久的老朋友了雖然南非對中國很仰賴"},{"start":562.111,"end":586.718,"text":"那我們也希望事情不要發展到最後因為南非在台灣有很多英語教師他有很多在台灣的人在工作在這邊讀書那不到最後我們當然不希望去影響這些無辜的一般人但是國家尊嚴國家的利益是大於一切個人我們也希望在台灣的南非朋友們不管在台灣從事什麼工作"},{"start":587.378,"end":587.678,"text":"外交部對美國第7艦隊"},{"start":606.089,"end":632.5,"text":"在宣布說他們有承認20號他們跟加拿大兩艘軍艦穿越台灣海峽執行自由航行的任務自由航行任務最重要一件事情其實就如同他們聲明所說民主盟友的軍艦穿越海峽公海走廊超出任何沿海國家的領海那西京4號這是美國的伯克級的軍艦溫哥華號這是加拿大的護衛艦"},{"start":633.7,"end":656.819,"text":"他穿越台灣海峽顯示他們維護所有國家航行自由的原則這對照中國不斷的要把台海內海化有利於他們對台侵略這當然是一件自由航行任務對台灣是有利的一個行動我們外交部身為國家的發言人外交部就是我們國家的發言人對這件事情的態度是什麼"},{"start":657.793,"end":681.003,"text":"我們感謝所有理念相近國家對於台海和平穩定的重視特別是自由航行權所以我們我想包括G7包括我想特別是美國還有第一島鏈的國家對於這個台海的自由航行權的一個重視"},{"start":682.323,"end":710.676,"text":"這是符合我想不只臺灣的國家利益而且符合整個印太區域共同的利益到目前為止德國22年來第一次行經臺海那英國啦加拿大澳洲啦美國日本日本好像也是史上第一次在上個月啦對於這些自由航行他穿越公海當然是航行的權利而臺海維持公海的狀態是不利"},{"start":711.616,"end":726.677,"text":"威脅那一端我們在台灣有些人齁動不動就對台灣要求說台灣你們要主張和平台灣不要上戰場台灣不要軍備他卻忘了發動爭端的製造動亂不和平的是侵略端啊"},{"start":727.538,"end":751.625,"text":"只會要求保護自己的人接受和平的準則那個是投降保護自己的人放下武器就什麼都沒有了侵略者放下武器才是真和平所以我們現在過去有一些相信的價值保家衛國守護自己的國家是正確的現在好像都會成為有些人口中嘲諷的對象那個扭曲的價值我覺得我們政府要義正詞嚴的去駁斥但對這個事情"},{"start":754.426,"end":771.5,"text":"自由航行它航行這一個公海的走廊對台海的和平穩定當然是有幫助的我最後請教部長這些相關的自由民主的好朋友們盟友們 partner他們在進行自由航行的時候我國會不會事先知情就你的了解"},{"start":772.886,"end":797.769,"text":"當然我們都有相關的情報交換至於具體的個案我就先不予評論這個我予以尊重那我希望在有關南非這個事件他正在變化當中而且南非國內的政治氛圍國際對台灣友好的國家的相關發聲以及11月5號後續的變化我們外交部要辛苦掌握主標這當然不能賭氣"},{"start":798.49,"end":798.811,"text":"好 謝謝委員鼓勵"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時56分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長早上好，辛苦了！"],["林部長佳龍：委員早上好。"],["王委員定宇：我快速詢問幾個跟我們國家非常重要關係的事情：第一個是南非的狀況，當然我們都知道，1997年雙方斷交的時候簽有協議，但它現在就是要撕毀協議，它甚至於用了non negotiable來要求我們搬走，搬到約翰尼斯堡，所以我第一個問題是，目前我們駐館的現狀是怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：目前我們的駐館正常運作中。"],["王委員定宇：還是留在首都？"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為它片面的行動違反協議的內容……"],["王委員定宇：當然，我們……"],["林部長佳龍：所以我們還是依照……"],["王委員定宇：所以現在還是留在普利托利亞這個地方？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們國家的態度是不搬？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有要搬。"],["王委員定宇：是for now還是……是現在而已，還是一直下去？"],["林部長佳龍：如果南非是一個法治國家，它應該遵守雙方的協議。如果有一些涉及到對我們館處人員安全或者是因為領務事務的正常進行造成重大的影響的時候，我們當然也會有因應的作法。"],["王委員定宇：那個館處是我們的財產嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：是我們買的嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我們有沒有做財產保全的準備？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["王委員定宇：細節內容怎麼準備我就不細問了，但我想請教，因為我們曾經發生過奈及利亞事件，當時他們也是叫我們……那遷得更遠，它遷到八百多公里以外，約翰尼斯堡和普利托利亞只差了大概一個小時以內車程，如果不塞車的話。當時奈及利亞變成是他們的政府派武裝警察，等於把我們趕出首都圈，在南非會不會發生這種狀況？"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經成立應變小組，會做各種對策的準備，如果說是國家之間的法律規定，它必須要來遵守。"],["王委員定宇：你判斷它的原因是什麼？因為在稍早不久前，中國舉辦中非合作論壇，現在南非執政黨ANC的總統跑到北京去，去年金磚集團在南非辦活動，習近平還專機到了那個地方，現在南非突然間毀壞他們自己所簽的協定，不遵守他們跟我們簽署的法律文件，你判斷發生這個事件是為什麼？為什麼是在現在？"],["林部長佳龍：確實過去26年來都算是相安無事，也是很正常在運作，從去年以來兩次的峰會，他們的外交部對我們持續的施壓，所以這裡面顯然有外力的影響。我想大家都了解，其實現在南非的媒體也表示，南非政府他們是不結盟的政策，怎麼會受到外國的影響，甚至是施壓？這一點我們已經看到不只他們國會議員，連媒體也都發生了。"],["王委員定宇：講到外國的施壓，我先講他們內部，因為ANC現在占400席國會議員裡面的159席，並沒有過半，所以它的執政聯盟是結合了DA，叫作民主聯盟嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：那DA有87席，我看到DA民主聯盟有發表聲明，要求執政黨要遵守法律，不可以這樣對臺灣，這個部分會不會有一些成果？"],["林部長佳龍：因為聯合政府嘛！就像DA的國會議員跟他們的外交事務發言人所講的，沒有經過內閣會議，新政府剛組成，怎麼會片面的強迫臺灣遷館？所以他要求要經過內閣會議。"],["王委員定宇：他們沒有經過內閣會議，沒有經過他們執政聯盟的共同決議嘛！所以這個事情，他們內部有些問題。那講完內部，來問外部。他受到外部因素影響，當然中國北京一直施壓圍堵臺灣，這是公開的秘密啦！我們也是有朋友的，就我知道，像美國的臺北法案有把他們的外交工具箱裡面的所有工具要跟臺灣合作綁在一起，目前我們臺灣的外交部有沒有尋求自由民主聯盟國家來協助？"],["林部長佳龍：我們持續都在尋求跟他們溝通，然後也獲得他們的協助，其實這個已經是過去至少這半年來很頻繁，包括美國、日本、G7的國家，他們不管……"],["王委員定宇：美國、日本、G7國家有接收到我方的訊息，他們有沒有出手協助我們這件事件？"],["林部長佳龍：有向南非政府表達他們的關切。"],["王委員定宇：G7、美、日這些國家都有？"],["林部長佳龍：美、日跟G7的一些國家，但是當然具體的國家他們表達的情況，我就不在這裡說明。"],["王委員定宇：G7以外的主要國家有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：也有，像歐洲很多理念相近的一些人權國家。"],["王委員定宇：歐洲相關的國家也有？"],["林部長佳龍：對，包括中東歐。"],["王委員定宇：方不方便透露讓我們知道好朋友是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：捷克。"],["王委員定宇：捷克有，還有沒有？我們還有比捷克更好的朋友。"],["林部長佳龍：其實還有他們都有……因為這些駐在地的大使館之間也都會交換意見。"],["王委員定宇：他們等於透過這些國家駐南非的使館替臺灣發聲，南非內部執政聯盟的第二大黨也有表達意見，然後我們現在國家的態度是「我不搬，你違法，你違反1997年簽的法律」，所以現在狀況是這樣子嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：那我方的反制作為之前我要問一下，當然對南非動手，我們就要想到隔壁的史瓦帝尼嘛！這件事情對史瓦帝尼跟臺灣，我們目前在非洲唯一的官方正式邦交國有沒有影響？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然是有警覺到這可能都是一連串要打壓我們外交的行動，所以我們已經加強跟史瓦帝尼的外交關係以外，阻止事情的擴散，就是還在發展中……"],["王委員定宇：史瓦帝尼目前還是用南非幣，那南非洲5個國家，賴索托等等，其實當然南非占的權重很大，所以我要提醒我們外交部，都不容易，我也知道你們都很辛苦，但這個局勢絕對不會是沒事突然間叫你遷出首都到約翰尼斯堡，50分鐘而已，實質的影響不大，但是後續會不會有其他效應，我們外交部要注意，那我們有沒有反制作為？"],["林部長佳龍：我們現在都有因應的計畫，就基於對等的原則，我們希望雙方面經過溝通可以有轉圜的餘地，但是我們也做好最壞劇本的想定及因應。"],["王委員定宇：我們不能全部show hand，但是要讓對方知道，比方說，你要我遷出首都，你的也要離開我們的雙北、我們的首都圈，比方說他們在臺灣有獎學金、有訓練計畫，比方說他們希望農產品進口到臺灣，這些東西我覺得要讓對方知道縱使雙方的交易金額大概在18億美金左右，占臺灣的比重不大，但是我們還是有能力做出維護國家尊嚴的動作。更重要的，美國跟臺灣現在的關係在外交上是合作的，美國有一個AGOA的會議是協助非洲發展的，南非其實是很仰賴這個事情，所以美國現在正在選舉，那他們的國會議員，以及11月5號選完總統之後，對於南非這件事情，臺灣應該要跟美國──我們的好朋友提出AGOA的審查應該把南非這個不友善的態度列入，外交部對這件事情怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：確實所謂AGOA就是非洲機會及成長法案，這是美國很重要的對非洲的政策。"],["王委員定宇：它牽涉到金援、協助等很多事情。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們的了解事實上也有支持臺灣很關心這個事件的包括國會議員，他們都有針對這個事情先前也有過一些發言，最近的發展應該會引起各界的注意跟因應。"],["王委員定宇：本席還是希望事情不要往最壞的程度發展，能夠有所轉圜，畢竟這麼久的老朋友了，雖然南非對中國很仰賴，我們也希望事情不要發展到最後，因為南非在臺灣有很多英語教師，有很多人在臺灣工作、在這邊讀書，不到最後，我們當然不希望去影響這些無辜的一般人，但是國家尊嚴、國家的利益是大於一切個人，我們也希望在臺灣的南非朋友們，不管在臺灣從事什麼工作，應該也要試圖回去讓你自己的政府知道，不要做違反法律、違反老朋友情誼的事情，這是兩面的，我們不能既要保護你，又被你的國家傷害。","接下來請教一下外交部對於美國第七艦隊宣布承認20號他們跟加拿大兩艘軍艦穿越臺灣海峽執行自由航行任務，自由航行的任務最重要的一件事情其實就如同他們聲明所說，民主盟友的軍艦穿越海峽公海走廊，超出任何沿海國家的領海，希金斯號是美國的伯克級軍艦，溫哥華號是加拿大的護衛艦，穿越臺灣海峽顯示他們維護所有國家航行自由的原則，對照中國不斷的要把臺海內海化，有利於他們對臺侵略，自由航行任務當然是一件對臺灣有利的行動。外交部身為國家的發言人，對這件事情態度是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們感謝所有理念相近國家對於臺海和平穩定的重視，特別是自由航行權，所以包括G7，特別是美國，還有第一島鏈的國家，對於臺海自由航行權的重視是符合不只臺灣的國家利益，而且符合整個印太區域共同的利益。"],["王委員定宇：到目前為止，德國22年來第一次行經臺海，那英國、加拿大、澳洲、美國、日本，日本在上個月好像也是史上第一次，對於這些自由航行穿越公海當然是航行的權利，而臺海維持公海的狀態是不利威脅的那一端，我們在臺灣有些人動不動就對臺灣要求說，臺灣要主張和平，臺灣不要上戰場，臺灣不要軍備，他卻忘了發動爭端的、製造動亂、不和平的是侵略端，只會要求保護自己的人接受和平的準則，那個是投降。保護自己的人，放下武器就什麼都沒有了，侵略者放下武器才是真和平，所以，我們過去有一些相信的價值，保家衛國，守護自己的國家是正確的，現在好像都會成為有些人口中嘲諷的對象，那個扭曲的價值，我覺得我們政府要義正辭嚴的去駁斥。但對這個事情，自由航行公海的走廊，對臺海的和平穩定當然是有幫助的。最後請教部長，這些相關的、自由民主的好朋友們、盟友們、partner，他們在進行自由航行的時候，就你的了解，我國會不會事先知情？"],["林部長佳龍：當然我們都有相關的情報交換，所以具體的個案，我就先不予評論。"],["王委員定宇：OK，這個我予以尊重，我希望有關南非這個事件正在變化當中，而且南非國內的政治氛圍、國際對臺灣友好國家的相關發聲，以及11月5號後續的變化，外交部要辛苦掌握住，這當然不能賭氣，維護國家尊嚴，但是駐外人員還有僑民的安全也很重要，希望外交部多加油，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，部長請回。","接下來我們請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}