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要加以做限制連任了以後是不是不准再任"},{"start":2203.115,"end":2219.816,"text":"其實那些條文相關實質上面的爭議在當初修正那個條文的時候提案的委員各個黨團不同的代表已經進行過充分的論述了今天"},{"start":2221.978,"end":2238.877,"text":"針對這一個施行日期的條文並沒有意思要把以前就已經處理過的論述重新再處理一次我們現在不是針對已經三讀生效的法律案要再重新進行討論的場合絕對不是那個場合"},{"start":2242.1,"end":2264.877,"text":"只不過說今年夏天在修正這個法律案的時候我們本來以為按照修法的意旨按照修法的意旨他就應該按照中央法規標準法的規定公佈以後幾天就會發生的效果只不過說今年夏天在修法的時候"},{"start":2266.121,"end":2291.214,"text":"因為本來依照中央法規標準法的規定他公告了以後就會發生效力結果沒有想到之前有一個比較老的條文也就是今天在處理的標的第十六條第十六條當初以前在訂NCC組織法的時候因為有一些配套的行政措施要必行"},{"start":2292.074,"end":2316.936,"text":"所以當年的NCC組織法留下第十六條本法施行日期由行政院以命令定制那在這樣子的背景下上一屆的國會在修正NCC組織法我們針對NCC委員萬年的條款以及他的資格限制上面並沒有去設想到"},{"start":2317.697,"end":2322.344,"text":"我們的行政院竟然會用以前舊法的第十六條的規定"},{"start":2324.045,"end":2351.681,"text":"第十六條條文說他決定不要公告那個施行的日期所以導致後來產生法律上面規定法律上面規定彼此之間的分歧因為行政院認為他們依照十六條的規定可以決定施行日期包括今年夏天上一個會期的修法"},{"start":2352.555,"end":2372.796,"text":"但是在立法院這一邊各個不同的黨團針對這件事情有不一樣的解釋我理解我們民主進步黨他們的解釋的方式應該是跟行政院解釋的方式一樣執行日期什麼時候執行讓行政院來加以決定但"},{"start":2374.258,"end":2392.92,"text":"二、當初在推動修法的在野黨的黨團包括了中國國民黨的黨團跟台灣民眾黨的黨團都不認為當初在修法的時候有這樣的意旨存在那既然已經產生了這樣子法律上面解釋的爭議所以在這個會期"},{"start":2394.654,"end":2408.587,"text":"為了要徹底的解決這個在法律解釋上面的爭議所以才針對第十六條的部分有提案修法希望予以明確化讓這個法規適用的爭議能夠畫上"},{"start":2417.711,"end":2419.052,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2437.446,"end":2438.507,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．請審議案．徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2458.089,"end":2482.757,"text":"能夠做一個發言留下記錄表達行政機關的立場只不過我要再次的跟大家說明今天協商的目的不是把三讀通過的法律案重新炒一次把三讀通過的法律案重新炒一次沒有意義要不然以後立法院沒完沒了三讀通過的"},{"start":2485.157,"end":2504.451,"text":"反對的那一方永遠可以在接下來日期當中回去持續的爭執。那這樣我們一直整個國家整個立法院沒有辦法往前走嗎?我們現在就針對今天協商的標的第十六條的部分那看行政機關的代表不管是通傳會還是我們的人種能夠來表達意見。請。"},{"start":2511,"end":2533.035,"text":"人種誰要當代表上來發言好不好因為今天本來是請行政院列席啦那行政院回函給我們黨團說主管機關他們認為是人種所以請人種派人過來那我們也是不為難行政院啦行政院他們沒有要派代表因為這件事情老實說是行政院院長決定的嘛"},{"start":2533.695,"end":2537.899,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案：一、本院台灣民眾黨團擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案．始列入協商"},{"start":2551.561,"end":2562.625,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．事由：一、本院委員翁曉玲等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案．事由．始列入協商主題始列入協商主題︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎�"},{"start":2581.531,"end":2582.732,"text":"徐欣瑩等21人擬具徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2597.822,"end":2618.453,"text":"以維護通傳會的業務正常運作．所以我們建議是新法施行日期是不是還是由刑罪人決定所以我們建議通傳會組織法第十六條能夠維持現行條文的規定以上好 謝謝任總代表的說明接下來通傳會有要再補充的嗎"},{"start":2619.468,"end":2647.095,"text":"那我就首先我就接著那個任總他們的這個意見了那首先呢就是第一個就是當然尊重大院的這個這個最後的立法的決定了那第二個部分的話就是我從實務上目前至少從7月31號到現在已經延任一段時間了而這個過程當中呢其實我們有很多發布這些人事命令有發布了很多這些行政裁處案件也有行政處分案件那如果說假設這段時間呢至少在立法架構上面"},{"start":2648.115,"end":2648.455,"text":"通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2666.863,"end":2668.324,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．請審議案．徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2691.51,"end":2693.592,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2707.219,"end":2731.938,"text":"一定是最後會往後發生效力的啦那文字上面到底要怎麼調整這件事情等到我們院會處理的時候我相信各位提案的委員跟黨團他們都會各自提出修正動議以及再修正動議那只不過說我必須要再強調一次回顧上個會期通過NCC組織法修正案的時候"},{"start":2732.719,"end":2760.57,"text":"立法者從頭到尾沒有意思要把施行日期交給行政院做決定我相信從整個立法的歷程當中這件事情是非常非常清楚的那也正是因為這個樣子所以現在產生了法規適用上面的爭議才有委員以及黨團分別提案要求要做修正這樣的事情當然卓文泰院長的立場在院會裡面"},{"start":2762.09,"end":2782.624,"text":"面對立委質詢的時候他也表達他表達的意見我們認不認同是一回事不過行政院院長表達的意見我們都尊重也聽到了只是說各個不同的朝野的立委大家是不是同意卓榮泰這樣子的說法這樣子的態度立法院是一個合一的機關"},{"start":2783.604,"end":2804.707,"text":"我們到最後還是要按照立法院裡面民主的程序到院會裡面依照民主的程序來加以做決定那最後針對有關於NCC委員排案審查的事情因為早就交付委員會審查了嘛議事人員我應該沒有理解錯誤吧"},{"start":2805.788,"end":2825.257,"text":"很早就交付委員會審查了為什麼交付委員會審查這麼久都沒有排案審查老實講我也覺得百思不得其解但沒有關係我們就也呼籲也呼籲就是交通委員會的召委大家如果舉得急的話就趕快來排案審查是是是是"},{"start":2828.459,"end":2828.979,"text":"徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2864.25,"end":2866.475,"text":"這樣子喔?所以一定要移請院長喔?"},{"start":2869.554,"end":2880.363,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案．一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024102157","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"155886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe52fd30c3e7b9ecf3c32fe6f4adb0dd55da20b3747a0acf135d5dcb3123ad56a9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:13:34 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時32分地點紅樓二林營會議室出席委員沈委員博洋等19人主席吳委員宗憲報告事項一宣讀本院本會第11屆第2會期第3次會議議事錄決定事項一本院第11屆第2會期第5次會議議事程未審定"},{"start":1942.098,"end":1958.154,"text":"本次會議．事程草案內容．黨團無法達成共識．原例將本次議程草案提報院會處理．請願案件．含送本院相關委員會審查共三案．立法院執勸新法第65條規定含轉權責機關處理進付並複製請願人共三案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1968.427,"end":1978.082,"text":"請問這個議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有的話我們議事錄確定接下來請宣讀報告事項、質詢事項及行政院院長提出專案報告事項"},{"start":1979.451,"end":2004.298,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議議事日程草案時間中華民國113年10月25日星期五10月29日星期二上午9時至下午6時地點本院議場報告事項一宣讀本院第11屆第2會期第5次會議議事錄二委員陳冠廷等擬具公路法交交通委員會審查三至五委員業人之等擬具所得稅法交財政委員會審查廢止行政院農業委員會動植物防疫檢疫局組織條例廢止行政院農業委員會水土保質局組織法交司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查"},{"start":2005.738,"end":2033.266,"text":"第6至第8委員．楊瓊英等里區警察人人事條例交司法及法治內政兩委員會審查產業創新條例交經濟財政兩委員會審查學生輔導法交交易及文化委員會審查第9至10委員．林俊憲等里區學校會生法交交易及文化委員會審查道路交通管理處法條例交交通委員會審查第11至13委員．黃仁等里區原住民族工作權保障法交內政委員會審查國家語言發展法交交易及文化委員會審查原住民族委員會組織法交司法及法治內政兩委員會審查第14至15委員．邱"},{"start":2035.307,"end":2053.78,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 電業法交經濟委員會審查16至17委員鄭天才登一句 原住民組委員會組織法交司法及法治內政兩委員會審查 氣候變遷因應法交社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通教育及文化六委員會審查18至19委員沈伯陽登一句 香港澳門關係條例國家安全法交內政委員會審查"},{"start":2055.281,"end":2073.495,"text":"20 委員翁曉琳等女巨 教育基本法 教育及文化委員會審查21-27 委員徐小新等女巨 性侵害犯罪防治法 教社會福利及衛生環境 司法及法治兩委員會審查就業保險法 就業服務法 教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查民方法 教內政委員會審查 使用牌照稅法 延久稅法 土地稅法 教財政委員會審查"},{"start":2075.386,"end":2096.288,"text":"28委員張雅琳等擬具不亦以止保存及教育推廣條例交由教育及文化委員會審查6、9至30委員書小慧等擬具住宅法、消防法交內政委員會審查3、1至35委員王洪威等擬具國家紀念日期節日實施法交內政委員會審查教育經費編列與管理法學校衛生法交由教育及文化委員會審查道路交通管理處法條例交交通委員會審查兒童及少年福利與權益保障法"},{"start":2096.588,"end":2111.953,"text":"交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查36 委員吳佩奕等擬據中華民國憲法徵求條文交修憲委員會審查37-40 委員萬美玲等擬據政府採購法交交通委員會審查老人福利法緊急醫療救護法社會救助法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2113.293,"end":2137.131,"text":"41至46委員林益勤等理據娛樂稅法交財政委員會審查交易基本法文化創意產業發展法交交易及文化委員會審查人工智慧基本法交交通委員會審查中華民國刑法民法交司法及法治委員會審查47至50委員王美惠等理據警察法國家公園法民防法交內政委員會審查青年基本法交交易及文化委員會審查51委員林黛樺等理據國土計劃法交內政委員會審查52至53"},{"start":2138.172,"end":2143.522,"text":"委員郭宇群等你去青年基本法教教育及文化委員會審查優生保健法教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2145.236,"end":2173.489,"text":"五十四委員羅丁威德尼具體育機運動發展部組織法交司法及法治教育及文化兩委員會審查五十五司法院行政院韓清審議法院組織法交司法及法治委員會審查五十六外交部含重中華民國一百二十四年度中央政府總預算案外交及國際事務學院單位預算刊物表交財政外交及國防兩委員會並一百二十四年度中央政府總預算案處理五十七經濟部含重設立亞灣IC研發中心進度專案報告交經濟委員會處理五十八至二零四行政院內監部 原民會 客委會 海委會 農業部"},{"start":2174.389,"end":2193.181,"text":"交通部﹑退府會﹑經濟部﹑金管會﹑財政部﹑中央銀行﹑文化部﹑司法院﹑衛福部﹑環境部﹑國客會﹑陸委會﹑中選會﹑國防部﹑僑委會﹑外交部﹑公平會﹑國發會﹑審計部﹑交易部﹑河岸會﹑募工﹑書法部﹑工程會﹑總統府府﹑監察院秘書長﹑考學院秘書長﹑法務部﹑勞動部等含重書面資料交相關委員會205-213交易及文化交通內政委員"},{"start":2203.504,"end":2224.324,"text":"國民黨黨團提議整理一至三委員黃建豪的擬居淹害防治法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查道路交通管理處罰條例交交通委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法及法治委員會審查四委員黃建斌的擬居國土計劃法交內政委員會審查五至八委員陳金輝的擬居貨物稅條例使用牌照稅法所的稅法交財政委員會審查114年度強化公立高級中等以下學校"},{"start":2224.925,"end":2231.659,"text":"校舍環境安全改善特別條例交交易警務號委員會審查9至12文章是輪得拟據菸酒稅法使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查國土計劃法交內政委員會審查"},{"start":2235.026,"end":2255.078,"text":"運動產業發展條例交交易經文化委員會審查13至14委員區域徵等擬具氣候變遷因應法交社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通交易經文化6委員會審查證券交易稅條例交財政委員會審查15至20委員羅廳委等擬具消防法交內政委員會審查保險法交財政委員會審查公立學校教學院退休知情服務條例體育及運動發展部全民運動署組織法"},{"start":2257.799,"end":2273.827,"text":"教育部組織法教 社法及法治 教育及文化兩委員會審查 就業服務法教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 21委員 洪孟凱等擬據 野生動物保育法教經濟委員會審查 22委員 鄭天才等擬據國家紀念日期節育實施法教內政委員會審查 23國民黨黨團擬據 全民防衛動員準備法教 外交及國防委員會審查"},{"start":2277.199,"end":2292.54,"text":"民進黨黨團提議陣列24 委員中嘉賓等你具運動部組織法交司法及法制交易及文化兩委員會審查25至30 委員邱志偉等你具外國專業人才延攬及雇用法交經濟社會福利及問世環境交易及文化三委員會審查商標法農會法石油管理法交經濟委員會審查"},{"start":2294.182,"end":2319.786,"text":"農地重劃條例交內政委員會審查人體器官移植條例交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查31至32委員網美會等理據發展觀光條例交交通委員會審查國定今年日及節日實施條例交內政委員會審查33委員陳亭飛等理據國土計劃法交內政委員會審查34至44委員沈伯央等委員黃潔等委員郭育晴等委員張宏祿等委員張雅玲等委員林月琴等"},{"start":2320.322,"end":2328.561,"text":"委員李博義等、委員吳秉瑞等、委員陳培宇等、委員蔡易瑜等、委員林益菁等分別擬聚臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查"},{"start":2332.096,"end":2356.011,"text":"行政院含情審議114年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第5期特別預算案擬請院會定期舉行會議邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告114年度施政計劃、114年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第5期特別預算案編制經過並備諮詢"},{"start":2358.773,"end":2385.082,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提增列46至54臺灣民眾黨黨團理據租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例集會遊行法交內政委員會審查統計法交財政委員會審查邊緣地區學校教育發展條例強迫入學條例交教育及文化委員會審查食品安全衛生管理法性別平等工作法孤獨死亡防治法長期照顧保險法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2386.962,"end":2411.955,"text":"質詢事項行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並被質詢10月29日宣讀完畢好我們宣讀完畢現在按照這個登記順序齁我們第一位請這個廖委員先想發言"},{"start":2426.623,"end":2454.101,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第6次會議議程日程草案除針列報告事項第34至45案建議暫緩立案外其餘報告事項 質詢事項及行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告均照議事日程草案及各黨團針列報告事項通過是否有當進行公決提案人 中共國民黨 立法院黨團"},{"start":2461.462,"end":2464.491,"text":"好接下來我們請登記第二位的國務委員育晴發言"},{"start":2476.276,"end":2496.732,"text":"針對第11屆第2會期第6次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項及行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及定價政策專案報告並被質詢10月29號 建請照議事日程草案及增列報告事項通過提案人 民主進步黨 立法院黨團"},{"start":2502.278,"end":2508.392,"text":"好 那我們這個議程草案的報告事項部分我們等等一下討論事項 宣讀之後一併處理那現在請宣讀討論事項"},{"start":2513.78,"end":2513.8,"text":"討論事項"},{"start":2534.961,"end":2558.361,"text":"建請院會議做成決議,中央政府應先統計全國超過50年以上老舊校舍數據所需拆除重建經費並得以編列特別預算方式於8年內完成之,是否有當行公決案?宣讀完畢好,那我們現在請登記委員發言首先第一位請郭委員育勤發言那我們在郭委員育勤發言結束後截止登記"},{"start":2567.399,"end":2580.753,"text":"針對第11屆第2會期第6次會議議程討論事項 盡請僅限下表所列一案是否有當進行公決提案人 民主金融黨 立法院黨團提案內容由議事人員代唸好 那我們現在請議事人員代為宣讀"},{"start":2589.161,"end":2604.653,"text":"本院民主進步黨立法院黨團針對第11屆第2會期第6次議事日程同時向建請僅限下表所列議案一徒勢更新條例修正案宣讀完畢好現在我們請登記第二位請林委員國城發言"},{"start":2612.469,"end":2636.899,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨針對第11屆第2會期第6次會議議事日程草案提議針對討論事項第三案如下列表為討論事項第一案第二案及第三案其餘照議事日程草案通過是否有當敬請公解"},{"start":2637.979,"end":2647.007,"text":"至於內容請主席授權議事人員要參閱或要那個朗讀那臺灣民眾黨立院黨團"},{"start":2658.783,"end":2670.812,"text":"好,那這個我們就不宣讀了,因為這個有說過參閱嘛那我們就請各位委員自行參閱那我們接下來請登記第三位陳委員經揮好,謝謝"},{"start":2676.65,"end":2685.738,"text":"好那我們登記委員已經發言完畢現在就針對這個報告事項報告事項跟質詢事項專案報告事項以及討論事項我們來一併處理"},{"start":2692.739,"end":2720.872,"text":"本次院會議程草案內容剛才我們經過草野大家各黨的協商因為我們後天禮拜四24號要進行這個相關的政黨的協商所以我們今天我們是不是我們委員會大家同意我們就今天議程我們就不做確定那將本次議程草案提報院會來處理請問有沒有異議沒有"},{"start":2722.537,"end":2735.404,"text":"好沒有異議那我們請宣讀人民請願案人民請願一含送本院相關委會審查者共二案二一請願把第四條規定系屬應提及輸送知識上共兩案宣讀完畢請問有無異議沒有異議通過接下來請問有無臨時動議沒有臨時動議那本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":2752.179,"end":2752.363,"text":"委員會結束"}]}},{"id":"155883","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155883","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe555aa9f7e073d1a1b32fe6f4adb0dd55da20b3747a0acf1356cf135525ed714a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:10:21 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二、財政委員會收案後,交各該委員會整理、呼應相關提案後。 於11月8日下午10時前,提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考。 請行政部門先行向提案委員及黨團進行雙向說明,落實溝通以利後續進行密集協商。"},{"start":1859.568,"end":1872.528,"text":"主持人韓國瑜、江啟臣、協商代表傅坤琦、林世民、王宏輝、吳斯堯、蔡義渝、柯建銘、黃國昌、吳春成、麥玉珍宣讀完畢請問院會對以上朝野黨團協商結論有依"},{"start":1875.441,"end":1892.949,"text":"五一通過。113年10月21日朝野黨團協商結論經決定如下,請各黨團於11月6日下午50前將113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":1894.347,"end":1914.908,"text":"預算營業及非營業部分之提案,送至財政委員會會長,欲時不再收案。 二、財政委員會收案後,交各該委員會整理復印相關提案後,於11月8日下午50前,提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考。"},{"start":1916.389,"end":1941.903,"text":"請行政部門先行向提案委員及黨團進行雙項說明、落實溝通,以利後續進行密集協商。法院會現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是新北市中山國小的同學,我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪。法院會現在"},{"start":1944.422,"end":1953.751,"text":"對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。今天繼續進行個人質詢、交通組織質詢。請賴委員瑞隆質詢。好,謝主席,請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":1974.781,"end":2002.492,"text":"院長辛苦了 首先還是要談其實我認為總預算其實是憲政的問題是權力分立是責任政治的問題那行政跟立法應該本以自己的憲政權責來施政我認為這個才是國家之福那現在我們的憲法的規定跟預算法的規定其實都非常的清楚那這個院長後面這樣的僵局怎麼解決你怎麼看"},{"start":2004.363,"end":2021.089,"text":"謝謝委員讓我再度有機會來說出我心裡從一開始到今天為止始終如一的一個想法只有一種想法就只能我在上一次的臉書的文章所說的其實行政院只有一個立場只有一個堅持"},{"start":2021.889,"end":2040.34,"text":"就是以後編列預算一定要按照憲法70條的精神,預算法93條的規定,如果立法院在審查預算的時候有增加稅出減少稅入,一定要徵詢行政院的意見,同時要指出資金、彌補資金的來源。"},{"start":2042.381,"end":2069.365,"text":"必要的時候還要進行必要的修法如果能夠進行這樣的程序兩院之間互相尊重毫無問題院長提出一個很關鍵性的問題啦就過去以來有的話通常也都是行政院其實是認可的也支持的所以才能夠進行但行政院有所疑慮要負這個政治責任的其實最後是行政院提出來任何那國家的資源有限下都一定要做一些適度一些調配跟整理"},{"start":2069.485,"end":2071.066,"text":"二、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":2092.265,"end":2112.404,"text":"每個政黨都有機會成為執政黨,都有機會成為國會的多數黨,但是應該把這個行政和立法的權責確立清楚,我任何國家才能長治久安,院長同意這樣的看法嗎?完全沒錯,如果履行剛剛的程序,兩院之間互相尊重,絕對沒有問題。同時,大法官4-391號他寫得非常清楚,無論是審議、審查、審議或是法律案,"},{"start":2118.484,"end":2135.69,"text":"涉及施政計畫內容的變動或調整,就算你預算項目移動或追加,非常重要,亦導致政策成敗無所歸屬,責任政治難以確立,有違行政權、立法權分立。"},{"start":2137.411,"end":2162.659,"text":"應該各本所施之制衡原理,因為憲法所不許。 憲法391非常,四字391非常清楚寫到這一頁。所以這個其實非常清楚,現在院長所堅持的也不是只有你而已,其實堅持的是一套制度啦,不然這個東西,惡例一旦延續下去,每次都可以這樣做的話,那大概整個責任政治會混亂掉,同時間整個行政立法的體系又會整個混亂掉。此離開皆總而來。 是。"},{"start":2164.48,"end":2164.86,"text":"因為在10月11日韓院長跟我的"},{"start":2189.758,"end":2218.561,"text":"跟草原黨團的參與當中副院長也在場其實那天談的內容大家還好但出來之後都說破局破冷水其實那天我跟韓院長心中非常清楚協商即將開始所以隔週馬上有協商開始所以我在10月18日才寫了剛剛的那個文章但是就是大家對於所謂依法這兩個字各有解讀不同所以前天我才用這個更簡單的引語其實這個重點只有第三點"},{"start":2219.602,"end":2225.82,"text":"就是我們建議只要同意以後不會如此要求 只此一次下不為例"},{"start":2227.054,"end":2252.114,"text":"這次我們可以加點費用來解決這個問題所以等於是也加一個梯子讓大家有個台階下來有個緩和的方式下來之後那就這一次僵局已經造成了我們就解這一次就好了但是未來的部分還是要回歸到整個憲政跟這一次用一個特例的方式去處理它這一次還要還是要回頭來補行預算法93條的規定徵詢行政的意見那我們會做必要的"},{"start":2252.754,"end":2252.774,"text":"委員ﷺ"},{"start":2268.945,"end":2272.689,"text":"我認為其實不管是行政院特別是立法院都是要來解決問題啦,如果你只是要否決掉而已喔,這個你提出的方法我都不同意,那你釋憲我也不同意,那你所謂什麼所有的人這個"},{"start":2293.247,"end":2296.59,"text":"行政院提出這樣的方法,嘗試解決,那我還沒有看到朝野協商之間有沒有一個好的方法來討論。"},{"start":2312.332,"end":2328.974,"text":"但這是一種方法啦,另外裡面我看到了,院長裡面有提到啦,就所謂的仲裁,其實就是你講的,其實就是我們講的釋憲啦,釋憲也是另外一種方式嘛,就是你釋憲交由憲法法,你就要大法官來做最後的一個確定,那怎樣的,那最後的大法官的確定出來該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嘛,"},{"start":2330.376,"end":2352.425,"text":"大法官認為是立法院違憲立法院就退回這樣的方式如果大法官會作出行政院違憲的話那當然行政院也就接受這也是一種方式但是無論如何都不應該用這樣的方式卡住整個總預算應該讓總預算持續因為這個牽涉到現在不到差不多兩個多月的時間新的年度就開始了"},{"start":2352.845,"end":2376.674,"text":"所有的縣市政府所有的重大的建設新興的建設都在等待這樣的預算我認為朝野政黨都不應該再持續拖下去了我認為只要馬上開始立法院的效率還是可以完成的還是可以在時間內完成這樣我們對人民的托付就會有所交代行政院就能夠在下個年度好好的推動現在整道施政報告當中所跟大院所報告的內容"},{"start":2377.094,"end":2403.253,"text":"所以院長如果照你的的話就是以這一次的方式剛剛你提到這樣的方式來做處理嘛齁在追認後面的程序這樣處理那這個如果不可行的話那大概釋憲就是你的下一步可能的路我非常不願意阿真的我非常不願意不是個好的辦法不斷地必須提出釋憲不斷地提出釋憲不是個好的方法但是當行政立法陷入僵局陷入到對憲法的一個紛爭的時候那看來憲法法庭可能是最後適合的仲裁者沒錯"},{"start":2403.993,"end":2406.835,"text":"沒有一個執政團隊希望能夠用政治上的不穩定"},{"start":2432.393,"end":2456.244,"text":"來造成人民的困擾所以倒閣是憲法上面的規定但是是非常非常萬萬不得已的手段所以我昨天看到有些在野黨不斷的嗆聲這些的我認為這個都不是都是很不恰當的就是說你用這樣的方式無意以解決問題嘛憲政有憲政僵局的政治解決方案但是他不是最佳的方案我說總有一種方法可以行得通那我們要找哪一種方法"},{"start":2456.764,"end":2478.614,"text":"大家是要找那種方法而不是找其中最不可能的方法互相來指責那就不對了全台灣人民都在看我們也希望各政黨大家能夠發出智慧用最好的高度來解決這樣如果持續讓僵局下去而只是讓台灣國會台灣的政治陷入混亂的話我相信全民都在看大家都不會接受的沒錯我們也會很愧對來自"},{"start":2480.626,"end":2495.683,"text":"在看我們在這裡對話的所有的國人好 先講一下我要回到那個其實有一個是大林埔前村我要先談一下這個在2016年的時候其實林全院長代表這個政府跟那時候陳局長去做道歉然後啟動到現在18年經過6個院長"},{"start":2497.945,"end":2509.208,"text":"二、10月19日上午10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 二、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":2518.351,"end":2518.771,"text":"請院長來協助加快"},{"start":2538.797,"end":2547.346,"text":"好的,我覺得當時代總統院長在擔任院長的任內,我們也對這個事情有所接觸跟了解,那後來經過幾年之後,環評,第一階段環評,環評已經決定了,那之後,"},{"start":2554.313,"end":2578.71,"text":"現在開始我想我們可以有更多的機會時間來看看是不是照這個時程進行或是當中還有什麼問題我們積極來處理從一開始的道歉到現在已經8年了代表政府道歉8年然後從核定第一本的已經5年了所以我覺得時間相當長了那希望加快包括登記的程序鄉親們都在等希望早點做出選擇那早點的去思考整個未來我也希望這一塊這個"},{"start":2580.992,"end":2590.148,"text":"院長能不能指派未來有個政委來指派來盯住這樣的業務因為它涉及到除了經濟部會有其他一些相關部會的跨局處業務我也希望將來有政委能夠協助好嗎"},{"start":2591.459,"end":2593.12,"text":"高雄這幾年其實也謝謝在政府的大力支持下不管南梓、橋頭、仁武、北高雄的產業園區"},{"start":2617.369,"end":2645.82,"text":"到比較南高雄的從臨海工業區、前鎮科技產業園區包括到亞洲新灣區甚至在機場都有很多的投入很多建設這要非常感謝行政院跟交通部的支持那我要回到一個點其實這些重大建設高鐵也是其一個重要一環那我上禮拜看到柯志恩委員再次的去模糊掉這個焦點我們要再次強調從2007年就在評估當時最早評估的是從左營到高雄對有機會到屏東去"},{"start":2646.9,"end":2655.889,"text":"大台北就三個站了,板橋、台北到南港,非常好的一個效果。 但是當時的時候在2010年10月17日,毛志國當任交通部長的時候,"},{"start":2656.932,"end":2659.753,"text":"我只知道現在高雄車站是一個非常大"},{"start":2684.366,"end":2708.639,"text":"而且為了就是為了現在可能為了高鐵可能延伸過去做一個事前的準備啊那如果是這樣的話這句話當時為什麼存在而且高雄所以在歷史很清楚嗎歷史都留下了很清楚的紀錄當時如果交通部長支持的話其實這個案子就會進到高雄車站但是他已經想得很清楚到高雄車站甚至屏東不具可行性當你這樣一講下去的時候這個案子等於就是死掉"},{"start":2709.019,"end":2709.079,"text":"院長是這樣嗎?"},{"start":2729.505,"end":2729.525,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":2747.142,"end":2747.162,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":2768.626,"end":2773.789,"text":"部長跟我的想法就是年底之前收集地方的意見做一個整合那麼告訴地方我們想要做什麼樣的決定地方來共同支持目前我們還在收集像前幾天都多了一票"},{"start":2797.779,"end":2814.158,"text":"再來我請教一下除了高鐵之外機場也很重要特別是高雄機場也謝謝整個新的航廈計畫但現在這個新航廈第一期的預定要到2032年我認為太久我希望縮短到2030請加快相關的期程我們來努力加速好不好"},{"start":2814.418,"end":2842.244,"text":"另外當然航班航點的部分還是要請這個持續來增加我們這幾年看到義後在桃園在臺北的松山的部分都恢復的相當的快但是高雄作為南台灣最重要的一個國際機場甚至於新南向的一個基地我們認為這個優勢沒有被發揮出來包括甚至在新南向的航班的部分增加速度也都不如預期我們也希望院長部長持續來要求來增加這樣的一個"},{"start":2843.644,"end":2867.912,"text":"這個航班航點跟整個機程,好不好?這個我們來努力。再要請教一下,因為華航有新購了一些客機,那我知道這些新購客機,原先多數規劃是要放在北部的,桃園的,但我認為,我也請部長能夠回去要求,好不好?這一定要有一定比例是放在高雄,讓高雄,不然現在高雄的客機相對是小,而且這個相對是老舊的,這個對營運上面都是相對上都是更辛苦的。"},{"start":2868.252,"end":2888.578,"text":"我希望相對一定比例的應該要放在高雄好不好這請院長部長能夠大力來支持讓高雄的這個飛機讓高雄的好謝謝賴委員好謝謝卓院長下一位請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":2909.649,"end":2915.321,"text":"謝副院長我們是不是請我們行政院卓榮泰院長卓院長請備詢"},{"start":2924.176,"end":2952.218,"text":"陳委員好 院長好 院長我想跟你討論一下就是說我們現在整個安南區因為縣市合併之後其實過去安南區是原台南市的可能比較邊陲地帶可是現在因為台南縣市合併之後我們變成是一個非常重要交通路網的連接地帶所以我們現在我們過去到現在一直在爭取的"},{"start":2952.958,"end":2982.178,"text":"包括我們臺南都會區北外環道路基本上我們從第一期在蘇院長正式到我們現場去做會刊的時候我們就已經跟蘇院長報告跟當時候的行政院院長報告就是說我們應該在尾巴也就是進行到第4期的時候雖然這個是我們內政部國土署的那我為什麼在今天我要把它串聯起來"},{"start":2983.137,"end":2999.133,"text":"因為雖然它是國土署可是它重要的是連接到我們的國道所以它從國道包括我們的外環道可是我們現在的問題就是在於如何銜接到平面"},{"start":3000.154,"end":3012.131,"text":"在第4期尾巴的時候怎麼收尾我從第1期就開始提醒我們中央內政部一定好好做好這個相關的規劃現在已經"},{"start":3015.435,"end":3015.615,"text":"主席"},{"start":3042.332,"end":3070.432,"text":"我覺得中央跟地方的溝通真的有問題因為中央都站在一個本位主義像所有的一些路線外環道路線你一定要借用高灘地不能夠跟民宅太為接近可是我們的水利署一直堅持說有通水斷面大家可以去看一下"},{"start":3071.755,"end":3098.883,"text":"我們鹽水溪的高灘地它是非常非常的大一個落墩不會影響到所謂的通水斷面可是你今天如果太靠近民宅就會引發民宅的爭議那根本整個工程就進不了動不了然後到了尾巴要收尾你又把它接近整個社區請問"},{"start":3101.741,"end":3130.127,"text":"如果我住在那裡三、四十年我原本就是一個寧靜的社區結果你因為外環道居然把人家接到我們的社區道路居然是要變更我們的社區道路變成破除堤防你想 有誰會接受這就在我的選區"},{"start":3132.246,"end":3160.998,"text":"從安南區這一條外環道我們爭取非常久好不容易在我們民進黨執政的時候小英政府的時候我們看到的曙光大家很期待可是當你從永康要接進來的時候那邊因為民宅比較少大家意見不多當時候我就一直提醒當我們在爭取重大建設的時候因為我們在地方"},{"start":3162.421,"end":3181.556,"text":"我們很清楚問題會出在哪裡我們就已經跟包括內政部、行政院相關單位提醒再提醒結果現在還是面臨同樣的問題所以 院長因為今天是交通部"},{"start":3183.171,"end":3201.694,"text":"但是這一部分會有所謂牽扯性所以拜託院長指示一下我們是不是有一個平台請各部會請市政府研究對地方最有利的辦法"},{"start":3202.557,"end":3231.755,"text":"不要一意孤行一意孤行之後你功成動不了又造成民怨這不是兩敗俱傷嗎所以這個部分再麻煩院長這是屬於我們北外環道我們爭取很辛苦捏我們要請出這條經費是很辛苦的結果大家有了經費之後拜託說先做未雨綢繆大家都不做到了最後現在卡在這裡"},{"start":3232.858,"end":3252.985,"text":"很可惜再來就是我們的國道吧唯一可能是全世界啦不要說全國啦全世界唯一條啦國道有紅綠燈的啦我們也是爭取很久了"},{"start":3253.8,"end":3281.787,"text":"也謝謝民進黨政府給了地方一個大改變所以這一條國道吧唯一一個紅綠燈這樣的一個奇蹟這樣的一個跡象已經要改變了所以在111年我們真的爭取很久從我上任之後我當民意代表今年17年從我第一"},{"start":3282.714,"end":3303.139,"text":"也擔任立委開始我們就一直在爭取這一條可是沒有辦法有正面回應還好民進黨政府上任之後聽到我們的聲音在111年5月20號行政院合定可行性評估報告高工局在111年8月展開綜合規劃作業然後在112年10月20號行政院合定建設計畫而且"},{"start":3311.821,"end":3325.269,"text":"在這個總建設經費總共是29.76億可是這是沒有包含聯絡到跟撤撤到我們這一次也有把聯絡到跟撤撤到再加進去"},{"start":3326.482,"end":3348.522,"text":"因為你沒有聯絡道跟車車道,一樣造成地方的問題,所以我們當時也在繼續爭取聯絡道跟車車道,所以在整個所有的再加上閘道的配合款,再加上我們主線道要維持雙向式車道,並且增設西出跟東路的閘道還有輔助車道,"},{"start":3350.944,"end":3376.983,"text":"還有要提供我們南133線進出國道8的功能所以這個整個預算都大為增加還好我們中央補助當然地方也有配合我們預計是在114年初要發包施工我們看到了我們看到現在在做一些細部的"},{"start":3378.072,"end":3397.932,"text":"所以我們要拜託 這不能拖 這絕對不能拖 因為我們南科的發展幾乎每天到開始上下班的時候 這個地方就是塞車路段 我每天幾乎都要經過"},{"start":3399.537,"end":3425.495,"text":"我們每天看到他塞車的時間是越來越長越來越長而且越來越提早因為大家怕塞車所以提早結果塞車的時間是越提早塞車的時間是越長表示這個不做已經不行了所以拜託現在預計114年初發包施工我們希望要趕快"},{"start":3426.963,"end":3433.979,"text":"所以我今天所講的都是現在非常重要牽扯到所有外環系統、交通網絡"},{"start":3435.885,"end":3459.597,"text":"我們扮演的角色越來越重要所以這個部分我們請部長這個部分一定要盯緊腳步這個我會盯緊我那天其實到現場去會刊的時候您的妹妹也在現場那我們也有請高工局所有的進度都要抓緊不要去延後因為我自己在走那一段的時候也看到紅綠燈的過程確實有造成一些塞車車子蠻多的這個部分確實要趕快改善"},{"start":3460.387,"end":3484.948,"text":"我覺得要爭取一個重大功成絕對不會是天上掉下來的禮物我們努力了很久一路來到現在努力很久終於現在看到了所有的一個重要的成果績效這個成果績效還沒開始只有看到一個規模"},{"start":3486.291,"end":3511.537,"text":"所以拜託在114年初一定要順利完成發包施工而且要盯緊所有的進度重點交違計畫我們的交違很重要因為這時間非常的長範圍非常的廣所以交違計畫所以在另外就是我們台61線"},{"start":3514.874,"end":3543.351,"text":"臺61線其實臺61線是接我們曾文溪橋一直到臺86臺86然後要再接我們南延到高雄這一條我們的一個快速道路的部分就是讓我們的臺61線西濱快速道路是一個可以往我們86還有往高雄來延伸這非常重要"},{"start":3544.386,"end":3572.511,"text":"所以我今天講的都整個外環道而且曾文熙橋是當時候就在這個地方2016年第一次林全院長在接受施政報告質詢我的質詢的時候我所提出來然後林全院長在這裡正式允諾而且開始啟動所有的相關環評環差因為我們這裡會接近整個生態"},{"start":3574.011,"end":3592.046,"text":"所以我們的環評環招做得特別的仔細不能影響生態的發展所以現在都完成了所以我們才會有曾文熙橋現在已經在動工了好我們動工之後就要進入到第二階段就是曾文熙橋怎麼連接到台86"},{"start":3593.507,"end":3610.584,"text":"然後再往高雄延伸這才是一個重要的外環脈絡所以我們在講的是現在可以做的不是遙遙無期的所以在現階段我們目前我看到一個資料我非常驚訝"},{"start":3613.22,"end":3638.056,"text":"我們的可行性評估報告公路局正義交通部113年10月18日的意見在修正當中主要的意見是說加計廣泛性經濟效益而且它的整個後裔本比只有1.02"},{"start":3641.186,"end":3645.193,"text":"他用這樣的說法,我怕到要死了。 那個標示不要做嗎?你的後裔本筆,緊,他用緊。"},{"start":3651.786,"end":3680.042,"text":"你知道文字 大家對於這個文字都很擔心他們裡面還會再做修正 這個委員不用太擔心這個部分我們會往前推進但現在比較大的問題其實是要跟地方就路廊的部分來取得共識這個部分是比較關鍵 也比較爭議的部分但其他的部分我覺得爭議性不大沒有 現在就是我們第一個階段是你交通部你們在公路局的整個"},{"start":3681.616,"end":3704.613,"text":"可行性評估你們要先確認,如果說可行性評估都在那邊空中在飛的,你叫我們地方要怎麼能夠心安?明年1月可行性評估大概在部的部分大概就能完成,公路局就能完成,以那個完成的版本去跟地方來談路廊的問題,我們來解決路廊的問題。部長你說的,明年1月這個可行性評估就會確認,"},{"start":3705.734,"end":3707.115,"text":"你這些文字對我們地方來講太可怕了"},{"start":3725.168,"end":3749.094,"text":"明年1月公路局就會送出來,然後跟地方來訪問路廊。 交通部這邊就要確認,這一條是一定要做的,你沒有確認我們地方動不了,然後因為我們對於整個廊道的部分,基本上你有四個版本,要拜託,因為這四個版本當中,有如何對於地方的發展效益最高。"},{"start":3750.194,"end":3750.214,"text":"對,沒錯。"},{"start":3770.709,"end":3787.689,"text":"所以我們希望在地方重要的階段當中我們不希望因為大家的不積極然後又看到這麼重要的一條從台61如果他可以直接接86起碼要先接台86"},{"start":3789.616,"end":3809.335,"text":"一定要先接台86它的效益才會高然後我們第二階才去延伸到高雄我覺得我們可以做二階的一個考量所以這個部分部長麻煩然後另外一個就是我們台南機場的部分台南機場現在在12月12號我們越南包機"},{"start":3810.794,"end":3811.234,"text":"好謝謝陳委員下一位我們請陳俊宇委員質詢"},{"start":3856.886,"end":3875.894,"text":"好,謝謝大會主席、我們江副院長。那有請我們的卓院長。卓院長請備詢。議長午安。政委好。議長午安。辛苦了。辛苦了。這段時間為了我們綜藝省的部分,一定非常用心,帶領我們的行政團隊四處奔波。感謝你。"},{"start":3885.493,"end":3897.798,"text":"當然這個整個我們國家的政策還有我們相關的建設也都是延續性的那也特別感謝我們左院長對於我們整個這個重責大任的承攬"},{"start":3898.817,"end":3921.835,"text":"那我再次我也要謝謝我們在野黨幾位立委。 最近這段期間對於議員館的交通建設或是一些機閘聲音, 能夠進入同樣的想法,在向我們行政院來要求和拜託。 我也希望說未來在我們党運中大量的行政團隊, 能夠做回來為議員,我們來拚建設、聽官說。 拜託我們一定。"},{"start":3927.041,"end":3952.495,"text":"首先我想要請教議長就是對於宜蘭鐵路工業的部分目前我們所進行的是在六月12日通過環境的影響評估順利在9月2日我們的經費部分遞到中央的增援已經有遭遇目前進入的是綜合委員會部分我想要請教"},{"start":3953.763,"end":3960.393,"text":"議長就是說因為這年代的部分,我們有機會會報應來請出這個協定的結尾,我拜託議長就是針對這個部分,要盡量來幫我們倒三天。兩年來到底有發生什麼事嗎?"},{"start":3970.576,"end":3987.693,"text":"中規之後鐵道局還要送到交通部去審議,那如果其中順利的話,我想往後推的速度我們就可以掌握,那如果還有一些問題交通部應該積極去解決,交通部比較了解。我們盡量努力在兩年之內來動工。兩年內可以順利來動工?"},{"start":3990.436,"end":4010.44,"text":"委員一直在爭取一直在推動這件事那我們當然速度會加快那所以在我們部裡面的審議的程序我們加快那之後就會送給院那院那個合訂之後我們就會進入開始設計規劃的部分那兩年動工兩年內動工那我們有沒有一個期程大概什麼時候可以"},{"start":4010.88,"end":4023.568,"text":"掌握到他可以有一個完工的機會我們原本的計畫是希望在合定之後的10年之內要完工合定之後就是由政院合定之後我們希望趕10年之內可以趕快完成給宜蘭的鄉親"},{"start":4025.131,"end":4052.934,"text":"那我還是拜託我們部長跟院長我們如果假設在這過程裡面我們可以完善所有的相關配套那減少這個工程期間的這個交通黑暗期包括未來的這個高鐵延伸宜蘭我都希望能夠縮短期程能夠讓整個工程可以儘早來完工這個部分可能要請我們教導我們會設法來提升效率在地方上需要的盡快完成另外我們宜蘭往南"},{"start":4053.666,"end":4070.333,"text":"的一個交通路網最主要的應該就是蘇蛙公路了那在近期內看到這個風災還有地震的情況導致我們這個蘇蛙公路在崇德的那一段好像很明顯因為土石沖刷導致那個地方不管是道路或鐵路"},{"start":4071.603,"end":4085.396,"text":"經常都產生這個中斷的情況,那我們對於目前進行中的這個蘇花安跟蘇花改延伸到國道5號的部分,我想請教這個部分,部長我們目前進度到哪裡?"},{"start":4086.996,"end":4112.524,"text":"報告委員,我們蘇花庵的部分在10月15日國發會有召開會議,那也予以支持。所以之後我們公路局就會接續來辦理設計還有用地取得。我們希望在121年能夠完工,達到通車的階段。這是蘇花庵的部分。那國道5號接蘇花改的部分也剛好在今年的10月16日也得到了國發會的支持。"},{"start":4112.924,"end":4136.884,"text":"那我們也是一樣,一併跟蘇花安一樣,我們希望在民國121年能夠達到通車的階段。都是121年?對,我們都希望能夠努力在121年能夠達到通車的階段。這個我們期待啦,期待這個安全的道路盡早來完工。我相信是讓民眾通行更加安全無虞,也是我們政府這個利益良善的一個出發點。那另外就是針對"},{"start":4138.621,"end":4167.496,"text":"這個我們所建立的這個三小時的SOP輸運計畫,假設在這個路段又產生這個道路或是鐵路中斷的情況的時候,我們目前這個安排的情況是怎樣?這個部分跟委員報告齁,我們有分海、陸、空三個部分,那陸運的部分因為如果是蘇花的部分中斷,那我們就是往南,所以南回的這個鐵路的部分我們會加開班次,那另外再合併到高鐵的部分,高鐵也會加開班次,銜接我們南回,"},{"start":4168.196,"end":4194.789,"text":"接到西部的那一段所以高鐵跟台鐵的部分會合併來執行這個輸運的部分那另外就是針對空運的部分只要發生路廊中斷的狀況的時候我們的空運會馬上來爭取班機像上一次9月8號有一次中斷的時候那個時候天候的狀況可以我們馬上就正開班機來輸運我們比較急的旅客比較不急的我們大概就是走鐵路走南回"},{"start":4195.329,"end":4211.502,"text":"另外海運的部分其實到目前為止我們希望能夠快速的啟動但因為我們在那邊沒有所謂的固定的船班在所以都要跟那個媽祖來釣這個所謂的新台馬輪那釣新台馬輪過來大概也要一天到兩天的時間這個時間會稍微晚一點"},{"start":4213.524,"end":4240.16,"text":"所以目前我們也有在討論說有沒有要建立一個旅遊型態的平日就有的這個藍色公路的這個建制,如果有的話未來在海運的部分可以馬上接上來,那個輸運的速度會再更快一些,以上跟委員報告。好,謝謝,謝謝部長。我接續要問的就是藍色公路,那在1975年的時候,曾經我們有這個花蓮輪,往返這個基隆到花蓮,"},{"start":4241.101,"end":4269.313,"text":"那當時這一條路線也是非常的夯也造成許多這個民眾他可能有一種度假的形式的這種搭乘的心態那他當時他是船運比較慢他如果從花蓮開到基隆可能是7.5個小時也就是晚上開船之後民眾就上船就開始睡覺然後到基隆可能就是早上就可以去上班或去旅遊那當然現在的船隻的這個運輸的"},{"start":4270.74,"end":4287.687,"text":"速度應該也都提升了,那在之前也有這個利納倫的加入,那因為這個蘇花改完工之後,通車那減少這個通車的時間,那也降低這個相關的通行的安全之後,這利納倫就這個黯然的收場了。"},{"start":4292.325,"end":4319.035,"text":"現在就看起來假設我們現在蘇花改跟蘇花安工程還沒有完成之前剛剛誠如部長您所說的我們也有在規劃看能不能再增加一條這個藍色公路我希望說可不可以讓它變成是常態性可是這個有兩個原因兩個這個部分需要我們這個中央部會要去協助的就是有沒有辦法再縮短"},{"start":4319.773,"end":4330.787,"text":"行運的時間這個可能就是要選擇這個船隻他可能運輸的時間會比較快一點這是第一點減少運輸時間第二就是可能要降低這個票價的部分"},{"start":4332.233,"end":4352.268,"text":"我希望說這個部分看能不能交通部去研議看看有機會的話把藍色公路再重新建置起來增加誘因讓民眾可以這個選擇搭乘海運的部分有沒有辦法報告委員我們這個航港局我有交代他們在9月18號有召開了藍色公路的這個可行性的這個"},{"start":4353.208,"end":4353.228,"text":"蘇澳"},{"start":4382.603,"end":4394.618,"text":"蘇澳港的新建旅運中心也順利在6月30起用了那未來我們也希望說這一條藍色公路建置之後不管是我們國內的跳島旅遊還是我們現在目前"},{"start":4395.151,"end":4400.634,"text":"我相信這個藍色公路也可以相對的帶動宜蘭的相關的這個產業跟觀光的發展,所以請我們交通部這邊更加的積極的來辦理。另外就是我們這個宜蘭縣,宜蘭縣物產豐富。"},{"start":4421.285,"end":4445.673,"text":"這個自然的風景美不勝收這我相信在我們全台灣旅遊的這個廊帶上宜蘭縣應該是排名在前三名那我想我們有沒有機會可以來爭取宜蘭縣單獨申請這個國家級的風景區管理處全面來規劃推展宜蘭的這個觀光院長這個有沒有可能"},{"start":4448.829,"end":4471.031,"text":"關光的事情當然全國各地好的地點還是要經過評估現在交通部夜館裡面已經有很多的風景區是不是要增設一套的評鑑的標準跟選擇的標準我們請交通部來跟委員商量一下怎麼來進行這部分可能就請"},{"start":4472.379,"end":4494.976,"text":"這部長我們會後再討論這個好了我希望說能夠在宜蘭縣單獨來成立一個風景區管理處的話我相信這個量人才能夠支應宜蘭縣相關的觀光需求現階段我想請教就是東北角風景區管理處那因為他所這個轄管的範圍太大了"},{"start":4498.288,"end":4507.697,"text":"他北起是我們新北的瑞芳南到宜蘭縣的南方澳的內埤海灣總面積是達到17,130公頃海岸線的長度是102.5公里所以他整個範圍這麼的寬資源有限"},{"start":4521.357,"end":4547.508,"text":"我是覺得說他在挹注在宜蘭的部分可能沒辦法支應讓整個宜蘭縣的需求都能夠滿足所以才會要求說看能不能單獨來申請那現在我們地方就是形成一個這個現階段的要求就是希望我們能夠南沿到這個宜蘭縣跟花蓮的這個交界口和平溪口和平溪的這個溪口"},{"start":4548.001,"end":4566.453,"text":"那部長這個部分有沒有可能?這個部分我們其實也在研議當中我們7月9號已經有委託專業的顧問公司在針對範圍擴大的部分來做檢討那我們曾經的政委也非常關心這個議題他也曾經到縣議去看那也有特別要求說我們這個難言的部分要盡量來努力來協助"},{"start":4567.513,"end":4592.848,"text":"協助宜蘭的觀光發展目前我們正在研究不過委員您剛剛所提到確實我們東北角的管理處的管轄範圍實在是非常的大一方面是資源的問題二方面其實處裡面的人也在跟我反映說人力不太夠這個部分我們正在努力所以我們雙方面來努力就是一方面我們正在規劃擴大範圍二方面針對人力的部分跟資源的部分我們也設法來補強"},{"start":4595.25,"end":4621.249,"text":"這部分也請我們部長幫忙另外就是因為東北角風景區管理處目前編制是58個元額我們行政院目前核定有15個元額有可能就是欲缺不補那會造成未來假設我們整個風景區管理處的轄管的範圍增大可是人員又不足的情況之下有可能在未來5年"},{"start":4623.046,"end":4650.683,"text":"會從58個人剩下40個人,那這個情況我們要怎麼因應?我們盡量來爭取緣額,這是一方面,二方面針對工作效率上有沒有什麼更可以優化或精進的部分,但是人力的緣額我們會努力來爭取。那另外我們宜蘭縣,我剛剛講我們的天然資源非常的豐富,那我們的山、海、還有野溪、還有海洋的部分,"},{"start":4652.455,"end":4672.881,"text":"伊蘭縣總共有19處的溫泉還有1處是全世界唯二、亞洲唯一的冷泉所以在伊蘭縣我們有這麼豐富的水資源可是我們沒辦法去好好的行銷在我們有時候我不曉得我們院長跟部長"},{"start":4673.863,"end":4685.894,"text":"出國的當下如果我們今天要去日本會不會去看行程說我們今天晚上這個行程裡面有沒有其中一個晚上可以在日本的哪一個地方可以好好的泡湯來這個休息一下"},{"start":4687.403,"end":4712.514,"text":"假設我們可以把這種概念加注在這個這個我們宜蘭縣推廣這個觀光的行銷上我要拜託我們交通部能不能協助來建構一個平台由我們中央的這個交通部這邊配合地方的縣政府還有這個還有原民會也要加入因為有一些野溪的這個溫泉是在這個原住民這個部落裡面"},{"start":4713.22,"end":4740.891,"text":"那再加上地方的這些鄉鎮市公所把這個平臺架構好之後包括我們剛剛講的這些溫泉還有一些優質的這些觀光旅宿業那還有我們宜蘭縣有17處的這個休閒農業區再加上一些優質的這些這個農特產品還有美食的這個餐飲業我想這個平臺架構完成之後能夠提供給遊客"},{"start":4742.748,"end":4746.576,"text":"來到臺灣甚至要去宜蘭深度旅遊的時候有一個比較明確的選擇"},{"start":4748.274,"end":4773.281,"text":"我想這部分可不可以請交通部來協助一下好,沒有問題,我們請觀光署來跟地方政府來協調跟協商那包含那個委員剛剛所交代的園民會的部分我們找他們一起來討論還有地方的鄉鎮、市公所等等的大家來討論一下看這個平台怎麼建構那只要對觀光有利的我相信觀光署都會努力來推動我們希望說未來宜蘭縣市好山好水好氣頭好不好"},{"start":4781.055,"end":4786.456,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員。接下來我們請黃婕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請院長跟陳部長。左院長還有陳部長請備詢。"},{"start":4811.858,"end":4831.751,"text":"黃委員好好 院長好部長好首先請教一個我們所有高雄的委員都在問的問題就是這個高鐵進市區其實現在高雄人都非常非常關心尤其其實現在談論的路線有經過我的選區而且範圍非常大我相信部長也知道是"},{"start":4832.151,"end":4857.76,"text":"那當然前面其實大家都在提說高雄到底高鐵要不要進市區這個過去或許已經經歷過一個錯誤決策了就是在2010年大家都會拿出來的這個公文也就是時任在馬政府時期的交通部長毛志國以及葉匡神次長當時簽下的這張公文這張公文簽下去對於高雄人來說就是十幾年快20年的痛"},{"start":4859.2,"end":4872.012,"text":"這個是老高雄人的痛是因為當時其實高雄車站裡面已經預留高鐵的月台了那但是並沒有啟用也沒有開始工程嘛所以當時的錯誤決策導致這十幾年來大家都在討論說欸為什麼當時沒有進到市區導致現在還要重啟這樣的討論"},{"start":4879.599,"end":4879.879,"text":"當時的討論是以左營為主"},{"start":4908.103,"end":4927.18,"text":"沒錯在這個可行性評估裡面我把全部的內容都讀完了那裡面其實把所有的方案做了一次比較那當時其實有提到說是因為左營的方案就工程技術面用地拆遷面其實都相較高雄方案來的容易一點"},{"start":4929.266,"end":4955.076,"text":"然後還有經費啦那可是呢所以我當時就其實高雄人都說喔那原來要走左營方案可是直到今年2月開始有一些新的聲音出來我不知道說是到後面已經開始進行技術上的更細緻的評估發現說左營方案其實不可行還是怎麼樣所以到了7月其實我跟李柏宇委員有請鐵道局來跟我們說明到底現在遇到什麼困難了"},{"start":4956.076,"end":4980.488,"text":"是不是真的要變成走高雄方案了呢?結果當時鐵道局跟我們說什麼?他說沒有啊,只有左營方案,從頭到尾就是左營方案。結果7月11日跟我們講完,7月20日交通部馬上轉頭跟媒體說我們在評估高雄方案。那我當時就覺得說,欸?我是被耍了嗎?我是被鐵道局騙了嗎?還是鐵道局跟我們欺瞞了什麼?"},{"start":4984.608,"end":4991.497,"text":"這中間短短9天到底為什麼這麼如此重大的決策有這麼大的轉折可不可以請部長告訴我們到底這個中間關鍵是什麼"},{"start":4995.501,"end":5020.317,"text":"其實我所知道那個過程當中有左營方案有高雄方案其實同時還有另外兩個方案過去的討論其實有好幾個方案在討論還有小港潮州以及燕潮方案對還有燕潮方案那有幾個方案都在討論當中還沒有到最後定案那當時為什麼鐵道局說只有這個左營方案這個我不曉得那個過程但我所知道的是其實四個方案都在討論當中"},{"start":5022.526,"end":5025.792,"text":"這個拜託你回去瞭解好不好我跟委員報告520之後很短的時間內李前部長曾經來報告過"},{"start":5032.363,"end":5061.307,"text":"高鐵南深到這個屏東這個方案提出的是4條線我想我也知道但是這個方案當中當時比較著重在左營跟高雄這兩個方案更北更南的那個他已經不考慮了那我們那時候給交通部的做法是說你要回到去到高雄跟當地的高雄市政府當地的民意代表地方人士在做廣泛的溝通因為這個變更算是"},{"start":5061.877,"end":5062.879,"text":"臨時提案委員．完整會議"},{"start":5072.34,"end":5099.417,"text":"好 謝謝院長的補充說明喔 喔 院長比部長還了解 請部長要回去加油了 這個我就是要再來詢問部長的喔 因為我這幾天都聽到說 交通部很認真的在跟地方收集意見 然後在跟地方做溝通 可是就我所知 至少我的選區 不管是市民 里長 議員 還是我本人 都沒有接到任何的溝通 請問你們是跟誰溝通 做了哪些溝通"},{"start":5100.458,"end":5111.392,"text":"報告委員,我們跟市府有做溝通這是一方面,二方面其實我們會來舉辦三場的專家學者會議,包含地方的意見的收容的會議,我們在這個月就會來辦理,這個月就會來辦理。"},{"start":5114.199,"end":5140.655,"text":"當然在高雄辦,三場都會在高雄辦那當然也會邀請委員跟地方的包含民意代表也好或者是里長也好大家一起來商討一起來討論好那拜託這三場會議一定要公告讓所有的高雄市民知道因為我必須要跟部長報告這個時候其實你我走到地方每一場活動都會有人來跟我說到底高雄這個高鐵的方案要走哪一個路線怎麼走"},{"start":5141.015,"end":5141.095,"text":"主席"},{"start":5163.997,"end":5164.597,"text":"我近期會請鐵道局趕快來跟委員報告這件事情"},{"start":5182.483,"end":5210.598,"text":"好謝謝部長我為什麼要在這邊特別提這件事情是因為前面我也講過這個脈絡了過去高雄其實承受非常多那在這20年來現在其實從2020年我看這個報告到現在我們高雄又有新的進展包括輕軌也完工了包括今年年底高雄車站的站體也要完工了然後這20年來台鐵地下化高雄承受的也夠多了"},{"start":5211.479,"end":5236.108,"text":"那如果我們在這個時候要進到市區是不是應該要跟大家做妥善的溝通包括說其實在這個可行性評估報告裡面我也細讀了在高雄方案其實有非常多要去克服的困難不只是技術上因為就我所知現在除了只有預留月台然後其實它有橫渡線的問題因為寬度不夠你可能要拉到戰後"},{"start":5237.228,"end":5265.6,"text":"那這是一個,然後包括裡面要拆遷的戶數,光是2020年要拆遷的戶數,目前就已經是69戶,那個是資料上的,現在是不是有新增,不知道。明蛙的範圍多廣,跟當時評估的報告比起來是如何,這個都要去細算,包括我們現在新站體完成了,現在有兩大棟,就在高雄車站,請部長一定要來看一下,到時候如果明蛙的範圍影響到這兩棟,是不是還要拆掉在"},{"start":5266.8,"end":5266.82,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":5284.497,"end":5302.271,"text":"目前已經挖過的那個路段現在成為綠園道非常的漂亮我們也會要求說對綠園道的影響要縮到最小然後對交通的影響我們也希望能夠做半半施工的方式就是說影響一半不要整個把人家堵住這個部分我們會去處理再來因為淺頓工坊我們有討論過"},{"start":5303.012,"end":5303.412,"text":"請委員放心"},{"start":5320.368,"end":5345.465,"text":"謝謝部長說明因為這些務必要讓所有的市民放心因為我必須要說啦一個很大的前提高雄市民非常期待中央給予重大建設在高雄一定都是正向看待因為高雄人過去委屈很久所以現在如果高鐵願意進到市區或願意在高雄多設一站我相信沒有高雄人會反對但是中間包括說這個工期可行性評估報告裡面寫14年"},{"start":5347.938,"end":5356.357,"text":"14年喔高雄過去鐵路地下化已經20年那如果你現在又新增14年是不是又讓高雄人現在馬上"},{"start":5357.898,"end":5383.006,"text":"不知道要心情該是如何,非常的複雜,所以如果能包括剛剛說的,民挖範圍縮到最小,拆遷戶數縮到最小,然後包括用最大量的潛盾,然後可以讓民眾可以接受說在半漫施工的情況下,交通黑暗期非常短,即便接下來可能供期14年,我不知道,但是絕對不會影響到市民的生活,這個是不是部長可以在這邊承諾?"},{"start":5383.806,"end":5398.759,"text":"是 這個部分我們會盡量來努力影響最小的範圍之內來施工那過去我知道大家認為的那個黑暗期齁過去是那個鐵道地下化的整個過程那確實是整段都是民挖這是第一點第二點除了民挖之外因為他的鐵軌還在運行"},{"start":5400.14,"end":5417.908,"text":"好所以影響的範圍其實相對是大的那目前已經沒有鐵軌在運行了那我們再加上大量的潛墩的這個工法我相信這個影響會降到最小那我們會如果決定是高雄方案的話我們一定會跟高雄市民來承諾我們跟市政府這邊好好的配合影響大家生活最小的範圍之內來施工"},{"start":5419.175,"end":5444.953,"text":"好,謝謝部長的承諾,這個承諾非常重要,因為這個是高雄的百年大計,而且其實拉到高雄我相信也是有一部分的高雄人會覺得說這個可以均衡高雄南北的發展,而且對於產業的活絡、附近的商圈一定都是有幫助的,大家樂見,但是以上的這一些過去的大家經歷的痛,這一些承諾一定要由部長來盡力做到最大的協助。"},{"start":5445.613,"end":5462.033,"text":"好 謝謝 非常感謝那再來最後一個部分我要來跟院長請求喔因為其實我知道交通部算是非常的用心在最近高雄有一個好消息就是美聯航有來高雄設點那這個當然是一大進展可是還不夠"},{"start":5463.354,"end":5482.656,"text":"還不夠是因為現在高雄的航班航點只有疫情前的七成那這個我相信大家都不夠滿意啦所以在這邊我也要跟拜託請部長回去努力一下也要跟院長在這邊請託是不是有機會讓高雄的航班不只是恢復到過去的"},{"start":5484.137,"end":5509.295,"text":"百分之百的水準甚至可以再超越為什麼我說可以再超越是因為高雄是非常有市場的因為其實目前高雄的這個航班的旅運量其實基本上都有7成5以上甚至是非日本東北亞這些都到9成以上班機是非常滿而且現在的轉機市場我相信大家也都有看到那過去在高雄其實都也非常有機會來做轉機市場"},{"start":5511.727,"end":5538.375,"text":"所以我希望的是不要放棄這個機會我相信現在華航、長榮、可能新宇都已經很積極的要投向轉機市場高雄有這個條件好不好 這個可不可以來努力一下報告委員 航班的部分我們正在努力目前恢復大概八成多啦但是航點確實只有七成那為什麼呢 因為大量取消的是對岸的航點對岸的航點這個部分大概就有一些政治上的因素我們沒有辦法跟對岸來溝通"},{"start":5539.515,"end":5562.775,"text":"那另外的航點的部分我們正在努力因為委員們都很關心高雄幾乎每位委員都來談過沒錯我們希望能夠在飛一些長程的包含澳洲包含美國的這些航線我們正在努力當中那包含您在講的一些大型的這個航運的公司如果可以到高雄去拓展那當然更好那另外就是高雄可能機場可以作為東南亞的一個樞紐往東南亞的部分航線一個很重要的節點對這個部分我們會來努力"},{"start":5566.943,"end":5587.54,"text":"好那這個就期待我們交通部的好消息因為這個如果沒有你們來全力的協助我們也很難在這個市場上面有更多的拓展所以我希望說看什麼時候可以恢復到疫情前的這樣的航班航線航點然後也拓展新的點然後讓高雄成為新的轉機市場最棒的一個節點好不好"},{"start":5588.14,"end":5616.405,"text":"好那最後還有一點時間我也來跟院長來建議一下因為其實現在大家談淨零碳排那我知道的是現在航空業非常積極的要來做永續的燃油那我知道說現在桃園機場跟松山機場都有要來嘗試加中油的永續的燃油那是不是也我們回去把這個建議帶回去那是不是有機會把這樣的永續燃油還有相關的永續的建設"},{"start":5617.345,"end":5632.398,"text":"因為其實現在小港機場也正在有一新的工程嘛那是不是都把淨零碳排的概念帶進去我們可以走得更前面讓這個機場蓋好以及接下來使用的新的航班都可以有永續燃油以及有淨零碳排相關的設施在裡面"},{"start":5633.217,"end":5656.45,"text":"是的,航空的用油跟一般用油不一樣,它可以從回收的油品當中去做航空的用油。 那我們現在就是為了剛剛您說的要淨零碳排,要降低所有的使用量,所以這個部分過去合作的對象以及我們現在朝這個方向自己來看有沒有新的一個方向,這個是現在整個航空事業在努力的事情。"},{"start":5657.318,"end":5680.209,"text":"是,好,對,因為我知道的是目前其實我們有邀請中遊先幫我們幾個國籍的航空先試辦看看嘛,對,那我知道說目前如果連高雄的航班也都加入有沒有這樣的困難,或者是有沒有這樣的機會,如果可以的話是不是也請部長在這邊承諾接下來我們會讓高雄也來加入這個永續的行列?"},{"start":5680.709,"end":5696.489,"text":"是在技術產量品質都OK的情況之下我想都應該多多利用是我會請民航局趕快跟中油這邊來協調我們在高雄的這個機場的部分我們也來使用這個永續的燃油這個部分如果中油可以配合那民航局一定是樂觀其成"},{"start":5697.188,"end":5700.009,"text":"接下來就是我們消防機場的新的整個工程的規劃,因為現在要納入了任性機場。"},{"start":5732.594,"end":5744.239,"text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。委員李坤誠之質詢已書面提出,請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報。下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"},{"start":5759.186,"end":5786.399,"text":"謝謝主席,有請行政院卓院長、交通部陳部長。卓院長、陳部長,備詢。邱委員好。院長,我最近參加一個佛學講座,聽師父在開示的時候,人生的過程,做人做事,都會碰到一些邪魔,"},{"start":5787.521,"end":5807.606,"text":"協謀,協謀協謀是指的人,有可能是指事。 心頭裂我聽,心居正,書高說一句話。 啊你說真的講過,心居正,則協謀不入。 是不是這樣?"},{"start":5807.606,"end":5816.529,"text":"議會辦理依照憲法來執行,永遠是站在最正確的一邊。 所以,博弈有什麼想法?"},{"start":5816.529,"end":5816.849,"text":"是,我想"},{"start":5817.517,"end":5817.597,"text":"主席"},{"start":5841.704,"end":5867.769,"text":"那這個問一下那個南非的問題,南非當然這不是第一例,過去有奈及利亞也是叫我們的辦事處從首都遷到其他城市那這南非他更惡劣,限期在10月底要遷出這個首都普魯克利亞那外交部里長昨天表達就是說我們不遷,這是行政院立場"},{"start":5869.333,"end":5891.465,"text":"我們不簽,那如果他們用強制性的手段,我們有沒有什麼任何反制的這個措施呢?當然我們支持第一線外館人員在現場所做的努力。我們也支持外交部在衡量國際情勢底下所做的決定。那無論如何這一段跟剛剛委員一開始那一段是一樣的。"},{"start":5892.751,"end":5918.903,"text":"對方如果違反國際上的常規常理,而且不顧國際的法規,那對我們做這種強制性的,我們當然要據理力爭。 據理力爭的不是一個場館一個點而已,是一個國家的主權跟尊嚴。 所以我們一定是大力的來維護我們的尊嚴。 但是應該對方是遭受到相當大的來自對岸的壓力。 這也看得出來在外交的競爭上面,"},{"start":5920.063,"end":5948.801,"text":"我們永遠是跟對岸在做這種的競爭所以我們要對自己的外交人員有足夠的支撐力我們有沒有召見他們的南非駐台代表或者是我們也反制用他們的方式來請他們也搬離他們住宿也搬離台北市目前這個還是由外交部在跟他們洽商當中那剛剛這個黃協委員提到就是小港機場定位那我們機場大部分的航線是東南亞跟東北亞"},{"start":5950.041,"end":5973.392,"text":"東南亞它是一個轉機的一個契機啦。 東南亞很多國家沒有直飛美國的航線。 所以現在聯合航空開闢高雄到東京,我覺得它是不夠。 國際航空要帶頭,特別陳部長可以請協調三家國際航空。 是。 你在,你可以用charter或在旺季的時候,暑假期間。"},{"start":5974.349,"end":5998.199,"text":"你可以大概開航3個月到4個月在夏季期間,空高雄直飛北美,這部分是可行的,因為它客源絕對沒有問題,因為東南亞轉機不是到,大部分是到桃園機場,但小港機場他們也可以選擇,而且航程更近,相對的機位也比較多。"},{"start":6002.136,"end":6029.655,"text":"所以我覺得這部分是不是從這個明年的夏天開始就請國際航空先試飛搞不好這個班班課滿因為南部啊雲林以南啊你如果可以選擇的話我會選擇是消防機場因為沒有航線不夠所以我沒辦法選擇我只能去消防機場所以我覺得這個部分應該是可行的是不是擬定一個時間表"},{"start":6031.54,"end":6060.619,"text":"從明年夏季開始,旺季時間從高雄來飛北美,甚至歐洲也可以。因為高雄沒有大型的這個飛機在飛,大半都是320、321啦。所以沒有像777或者A350那種大型航空,所以它的運量永遠不足。所以我覺得疫後已經到這邊兩年時間了,應該要超越疫前的這個水平。"},{"start":6061.536,"end":6083.7,"text":"因為高雄是一個正在崛起的城市,未來台積電、王剛沒來,都在高雄設廠。高科技我們變成全世界最重要半導體的一個生產聚落,都在高雄。所以這個國際化的航班是很重要。請院長也請部長能夠多加重視。這個國際航空的部分我們來溝通。另外電價,電價對我們交通產業,"},{"start":6090.602,"end":6116.401,"text":"會有一些成本的增加目前為止大概鐵路部分沒有漲當然會有增加但是就是我們自己吸收嘛鐵路不漲那捷運的部分包括各縣市的捷運都沒有調整計畫但未來如果電價在調整的時候會不會台鐵的部分捷運的部分沒有勢必你要運用正常會不會造成說這個票價會調漲未來有沒有可能"},{"start":6123.118,"end":6141.594,"text":"這個長期來說未來的這個電價到底到什麼程度或者是會上漲下跌這個我們大概沒有辦法評估但是有一個部分就是說針對民眾的通勤的需求我們目前是用TPAS的部分來協助民眾在通勤的需求的面向上面讓他用最低的這個成本但是達到"},{"start":6142.214,"end":6144.095,"text":"因為我提到我地方的交通建設那台39就是高鐵橋下"},{"start":6172.489,"end":6197.487,"text":"高鐵橋下道路只到台南高鐵的沙崙你也知道嗎往南就沒有了我提案了5次然後質詢了大概15次那我覺得這部分一定要做從台南要直接走高鐵橋下到高雄仁武經過市區鹿竹、岡山、阿聯"},{"start":6202.09,"end":6218.116,"text":"這部分經過多年的爭取,這部分我希望說交通部在未來在預算執行面能夠全力支持,這點很重要。所以部長你有空去看一下。其實那段我看過,從台南要到高雄的這一段其實大家比較有共識。"},{"start":6219.216,"end":6221.557,"text":"一向交通建設你沒有六七年不會有眉目"},{"start":6247.779,"end":6265.599,"text":"你要完成大概10年,比方說岡山第二交通道,我努力了10年才獲得交通部的行政院員通過50億來批建第二交通道。所以一線交通建設,你從開始發想、從開始提案到完成10年以上。"},{"start":6266.363,"end":6291.403,"text":"所以台61線我覺得這是做一個為後代子孫有一個好的一個道路品質所以不能只做到曾文溪口你要往南一直接到高雄市區到南子當然要經過我的選區到海縣你也知道喔到延安米島到珠寨一到南馬溪這部分"},{"start":6292.432,"end":6320.905,"text":"才能顯現出濱海國道的從北到南,從北是從巴黎,你不只到中文溪口你就不蓋,這不行,這部分再請部長,你有空對這個內容再講。目前我們正在可行性研究的過程,那剛剛陳平飛委員在質詢的時候我有回答過明年的1月大概可行性研究在部的部分會有一個共識,那共識出來我們會跟這個地方政府也就是台南政府,因為目前針對這個路線的部分台南"},{"start":6321.385,"end":6343.641,"text":"施政部還有一些想法,我們下去討論完之後大概就會再往前推進。那另外我要問一下院長,運動部,當然這已經是政策了,對不對?那這個南北平衡很重要,左訓中心,"},{"start":6344.906,"end":6345.986,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6368.379,"end":6390.318,"text":"未來他會在哪個地方成為他最適合的服務國人的一個地點目前還在整個規劃當中我當然認為我甚至認為找一個有操場的地方讓他去也不錯讓他能夠去運動那左運中心他本身是有這些設施的這是一個想法那因為現在運動部的從構想規劃到現在我們有經過籌備小組跟諮詢小組"},{"start":6394.758,"end":6397.26,"text":"現有的基礎,包括氣候,包括這個城市的未來性,我是覺得國融是最好的。"},{"start":6415.688,"end":6440.59,"text":"我們會把委員的建議清清楚楚記載下來在討論的時候會很重視另外國家體育運動博物館我也曾經質詢過在陳建仁院長的時候這部分我也爭取很久但是文化部說這個也不是他們的未來體育部也說博物館好像是文化部管的"},{"start":6441.612,"end":6453.409,"text":"所以權責不分啦,所以我是希望我沒有國家級的體育運動博物館,所以這部分我也希望說,如果運動部成立的時候,也一併成立國家體育運動博物館,"},{"start":6454.192,"end":6471.333,"text":"我們在未來討論的時候那我也希望每個部會都能夠勇於認識把自己所該有的業館的範圍能夠為國人做更好的資訊提供跟服務那如果能夠朝這樣講也是把我們國家的整個體育運動的品質水平往上拉升"},{"start":6471.789,"end":6477.291,"text":"關於高雄捷運指線東西向串聯大學城這部分可行性研究能夠盡快核定這部分時間上有拖到所以這部分也請院長能夠重視這個指線現在的高雄捷運"},{"start":6501.807,"end":6527.994,"text":"大部分是南北向,紅線是南北向,但也有橘線是東西向,那是原來的市區,但原來縣區用北高雄也需要一個東西向,東西向這個子線這個是大家全民的期待,也能夠帶動這個北高雄的發展,可以連接北高雄跟東高雄,那這個區域就是未來半導體S狼帶的核心區了,"},{"start":6530.41,"end":6559.324,"text":"所以這部分我希望中央能夠大力支持是,當時的可行性研究中央補助了1680萬那現在可行性研究市政府在9月19號已經送到了交通部那我們現在正在審議的過程那委員很關心我們就來加速這個審議的過程能夠設一個支線到鵝阿寮紫關鵝阿寮因為他線都沒有往北沒有到我選區能夠設一個支線到鵝阿寮能夠帶動地方的發展這請交通部一併考慮"},{"start":6560.177,"end":6585.088,"text":"另外我還有一點時間我請教這個工程會陳主委就有關於院長有關於這個因為陳主委也是兼任政委是的那有些這個協調部分以政委來發揮會比較好一點就是說有些漁港比如說晴仁碼頭淡水有漁仁碼頭那加拿大協定也有一個這個"},{"start":6588.489,"end":6608.777,"text":"請問馬頭但是過去高雄縣時代所批鑑那現在呢因為沒有持續的投入所以他沒有觀光元素然後又全職發文不明阿公這是惡劣於港惡劣於港是高雄市政府市政府才有有限但是我覺得這個應該變成這個工程會來督導工程會來督導讓這個情人碼頭能夠活化"},{"start":6614.457,"end":6640.148,"text":"那麼好的一個海岸的遊戲區但是沒有主管機關市政府他財源有限所以我這部分我是不是可以請院長再請主委針對情人碼頭如何活化以及漁業署跟觀光部跟觀光署怎麼去協調用觀光的資源帶動漁港觀光的發展這個很重要"},{"start":6640.851,"end":6643.876,"text":"這部分怎麼去整合觀光署跟漁業署怎麼樣去帶動漁港觀光"},{"start":6657.287,"end":6657.607,"text":"謝謝邱委員"},{"start":6687.22,"end":6707.681,"text":"謝謝卓院長。報告委員會,現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是新竹縣竹東鎮南華社區發展協會的好朋友,我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參換,謝謝。下一位請魯明哲委員質詢。"},{"start":6726.874,"end":6734.657,"text":"委員,好"},{"start":6756.991,"end":6765.553,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請我們行政院主委院長和我們交通部陳部長。好,謝謝兩位。我們直接進入議題。今天其實討論的不光是我們桃園非常重要的建設,也是全國民眾"},{"start":6784.79,"end":6800.747,"text":"我們出入國境的一個門禁會特別感謝我們的這個當時的發言人現代的部長當時追隨院長在上任一個月6月21日就完成第一個願望最想看的是T3"},{"start":6802.289,"end":6823.706,"text":"三行價整個一個相關一個進度那天我也看到特別的報導你本身有三大期許第一個你希望他的進度進度能夠控制好希望在明年度我們的北登的一個廊下可以完成2027年可以我們的主體建築相關的運作能夠順利完工"},{"start":6824.386,"end":6846.721,"text":"那除了進度之外呢,也希望說軟硬體的施工單位都能夠跟上。最後一個我覺得你比較特別啦,一般的這個官員不太會講,你說希望啊,世界看到,因為這個建築,看到我們的,不光是宏偉的工程啊,而是看到我們台灣的一個文明啊,文明的細節。我覺得這個,這個很不錯。那現在,"},{"start":6850.403,"end":6878.004,"text":"這個院長你對於這個三行下相關的一個工作如期如資的完工有沒有信心啊?謝謝委員首先他整個設計是非常施工上非常難的所以他新建好之後他應該會成為一個世界的焦點所以我才希望有那個期許那明年四、五月份吧北廊道能夠先行使用雖然他整個暫停還沒有好"},{"start":6879.586,"end":6903.781,"text":"飛機降落之後可以用北廊道來進到我們現有的航廈裡面這個是應該可以如期做我現在比較擔心的是後續啊因為在這個呃包承包的工程上面有一些人力上的欠缺那我也有請陳部長一定要緊速的去把這些事情能夠完成也請淘汰公司能夠針對問題做有效的管控"},{"start":6905.08,"end":6925.442,"text":"那部長你有沒有信心阿,2027我們整個T3完工可以啟用,你有沒有信心?是,報告委員,我們北郎廳的部分沒有問題啦,那主體行下委員也一直都很關心,所以我們也特別有跟這個民航局也好,或是淘汰公司也好,一直在研商這個施工的過程遇到什麼樣的困難,我們正在努力的克服。"},{"start":6925.802,"end":6945.784,"text":"那我目前所知對運體建設的部分他們是有信心這個沒有問題但內部的這個裝潢的裝設的部分可能難度上會比較高不過我們目前為止我們的施工的期程都還在期程上面所以沒有延後那我們還是希望在2027年的下半年能夠準時如期如質來完工"},{"start":6946.294,"end":6968.034,"text":"好,事實上淘機這個一波三折啊,它的坦克路啊,事實上從2013年,我們當時就寫覺得一、二航廈不太夠,當時就覺得我們要做第三航廈。所以這麼早,已經十幾年前的2013年的時候,就已經把總顧問啊,標出去了,由荷蘭的機場的一個顧問公司啊,"},{"start":6968.614,"end":6968.714,"text":"臨時發言委員："},{"start":6983.581,"end":6985.922,"text":"二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、"},{"start":7004.193,"end":7018.484,"text":"所以我覺得這點點的 包括物價上漲 又要找預算 還有在今年初 又報了一個我們行李的X光機到底合不合格 廠商好不好的等等一個爭議啦 那我講了這麼多"},{"start":7020.425,"end":7021.887,"text":"三行下能順利運作的工程"},{"start":7038.925,"end":7061.8,"text":"目前齁他們給我的這個回報呃我們的工程 其實有有工程的部分延延到大概0.91個%這樣而已其實不多啦齁那未來發包的部分他們也跟我講說目前看起來都還蠻順利的所以沒有提出說有什麼樣子太大的微爆彈或許委員如果你有聽到的話再給我們提示一下那我要提一個齁"},{"start":7063.988,"end":7082.367,"text":"有可能是會爆彈,事實上媒體記者已經報了,已經說了嘛,那到底是什麼情況?我想首先請教一下部長,因為你在1月20,抱歉抱歉,9月26號,在交通委員會那天我主持會議,特別委員問到PMS,就這個系統,"},{"start":7083.228,"end":7108.618,"text":"因為決定採用試駕電巴的一個模式遇到了一些困難我不太清楚你查的怎麼樣但是這樣的一個電巴如果沒有做好因為人家轉機航廈不能走過去航廈看起來很近沒有辦法在路上走那都是高速公路沒有辦法所以要有串接連接的巴士因為航廈是用軌道的工程已經用了18、9年蠻順暢的那我們T2、T3呢"},{"start":7112.279,"end":7121.568,"text":"我們決定了不用軌道了我們要突破全世界最低我們就用自家電吧我們認為技術已經成熟了那這個的部分"},{"start":7123.12,"end":7149.589,"text":"部長你之前已經一個月啦,你承諾一個月嘛,一個月了解問題,PMS到底出了什麼問題,現在解決狀況如何?他目前是這個樣子,就是說,廠商跟廠商之間,上包商跟下包商之間有些合約上面的問題啦,那他們目前正在解決當中,那他有可能不想用那個李立這間公司,陳昱不想用李立這間公司,但這個部分他們還在合約的協商當中,那我目前還在找看裡面有什麼問題,"},{"start":7150.769,"end":7159.336,"text":"並且要協助啦,重點是還在找是不是,好,可以算嗎?好,院長,院長你有沒有聽說發生什麼問題?這個自駕電吧,PMS喔,T2,T3的這樣的一個用自駕電吧的一個系統,標也標出去了,遇到什麼問題?你有沒有聽說啦?部長我可以回報?我沒有像部長這麼了解。"},{"start":7179.022,"end":7195.957,"text":"那我跟你講遇到什麼問題因為我覺得有急迫性當部長或是說院長你們覺得我們來研究處理在找問題的時候現在問題火已經燒起來你們有什麼時間去找你如果現在不解決它是2月19號開工的"},{"start":7197.378,"end":7219.234,"text":"第一期要交報告是NTP加180天,6個月,8月底,不是現在,現在已經10月了,在9月、8月、8月底就要陸續分包商設計報告要審查,所以現在,現在你知道嗎,在系統分包商就如你說的,哎喲有生意,還在吵架中啊,那這個東西,"},{"start":7221.576,"end":7243.913,"text":"這個到底發生了什麼事呢?我跟你講,本來是軌道工程,全世界我相信,院長、部長還有我們主委,世界各國走一走,大概用軌道工程的居多,串接的居多。那現在到底發生什麼事呢?自動電發其實本來是軌道的。在108年10月,當時林佳龍部長主持一個會議,"},{"start":7245.165,"end":7269.614,"text":"那我不講後面有沒有用意啊 因為這個沒有意義 我們談一個問題齁 組織一個會議 後面在整個會議結論中 壓了一個小字 請機場公司研究一下 在T3整體十幾個標案中間 有沒有其他的 除了主體工程之外 有沒有其他部分可以減省費用啊 那就 你這樣講就好了嘛 瓜葫 如"},{"start":7270.794,"end":7271.715,"text":"臨時發言委員：完整會議臨時發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":7289.508,"end":7302.921,"text":"自駕巴士這個模式來取代工程。 到了去年112年的12月就決標了,今年2月開始啟動了,所以現在已經大概動了7個多月。"},{"start":7304.312,"end":7330.077,"text":"到了NTP加270天9個月之後不好意思喔所有的審查都要告一段落只剩下一個多月了所以我們現在在研究什麼呢研究我們出體工程我們院長這麼費心就算缺工的問題應該我是覺得就算2027沒有完成2028也會完成可是如果你的在管制區內管制區內他不能出來他要到T1、T2"},{"start":7331.957,"end":7334.081,"text":"陳柱惠你自己上來 因為上次我在交友會我有質詢"},{"start":7346.592,"end":7360.022,"text":"現在簡單來說嘛就是去年年底發生了什麼事呢決定自動電巴的時候去年年底招標嘛那三個團隊三組團隊來投標參與嘛然後誰來標到這17.5億17.45億的一個標案結果絕標了還不是絕標了那各位看到圖上第一組就是得標拿到獎盃的得標的廠商啊承應"},{"start":7372.17,"end":7391.542,"text":"陳韻好加上李立一個做車體主要做車體李立是做系統做系統第二組人沒有得標碼是華電加工研院做系統第三是秦威家六合那這個把他這個標案標出去了那到底對不對"},{"start":7394.861,"end":7423.86,"text":"我那天跟你講的現在卡了已經事實上已經要交報告了系統商還在吵架這個到底是我們當時你知道嗎選人是怎麼選的我想採購法民國87年上路到現在這麼久了是不是法規有問題是不是系統不完備還是委員上場的評鑑制度有一點問題為什麼我們常常常常選到的都是不OK的廠商我覺得很怪你研究了有沒有一個報告法我們大概"},{"start":7428.283,"end":7441.335,"text":"陳韻是主保長,他用的是履歷的時機,就是系統的時機。 那麼得標之後,因為他們大概相關問題談不攏,所以陳韻是想用公園院的這個系的"},{"start":7442.022,"end":7442.242,"text":"主席"},{"start":7468.659,"end":7482.218,"text":"最後,假設他到今年11月,他該完成的工作如果沒有完成,那就請淘汰公司依政府採購法,該怎麼處理就怎麼處理。"},{"start":7482.998,"end":7499.739,"text":"好部長,一年了解將近一個月,承運加上履歷一個做車一個做系統,因為光有車沒有辦法自駕,因為靈魂在這裡,靈魂哪裡該停,哪裡該開門,哪裡該怎麼樣,其實系統真的是一個靈魂,我們在軌道工程已經吃過很多虧了,"},{"start":7501.081,"end":7501.141,"text":"主席"},{"start":7522.069,"end":7524.891,"text":"我記得早期聽到很多採購法的故事就是這樣玩的兄弟你也弄一標"},{"start":7550.851,"end":7566.053,"text":"老哥你去弄一標我們三個一起去標誰標到大家一起玩玩來玩去換來換去都可以全兄弟一起賺採購法訂完之後就是要杜絕這個的你這個某種程度不同組合"},{"start":7567.182,"end":7583.42,"text":"我的評鑑委員想一想,一家用日本的列車,假設喔,一家用韓國的,我們起經選擇,我們決定,假設要用日本的,請問你,你開工了,哎呦,抱歉啊,日本人換一換,換韓國的,可以這樣玩,可以這樣搞嗎?"},{"start":7584.537,"end":7598.287,"text":"你們評鑑 把評鑑當白癡吧評鑑了 最優 次優 如果這制度是有用的話 你不能這樣搞啊所以 陳昀跟李立 現在也沒有同意嘛 他們還是一個團隊嘛我跟你講"},{"start":7600.609,"end":7617.867,"text":"這個院長其實真的你這邊要注意一下因為各個部會都有這樣的一個情況那天我在交友會特別在講說奇怪了為什麼很多公共工程啊都有很多的渣男廠商啊就其實做不好但他說得很好你知道嗎說得很好然後這個也騙到了"},{"start":7618.308,"end":7620.689,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":7642.406,"end":7661.92,"text":"針對這個標案的簡報,報告人類是誰﹖是陳韻的總經理﹖跟系統李立的李家盧這個執行長﹖也就是說我覺得合理啊,因為你光報告車體要怎麼做,不會跑沒有用啊,系統廠商,所以不是我們誰講哎呀那個是"},{"start":7663.161,"end":7688.628,"text":"裝螺絲令的分包商啊給他換一下沒有關係啊這系統廠商還上去打分數得標可能就他的一個原因但是我一個問題是說他的簡報第9月第9月那我就履願能力啊就是你為什麼要選我們陳韻、李立拍謝我告訴你我打遍江湖無敵手我做過台鐵的列控4.0而且感覺就是飽受好評"},{"start":7689.668,"end":7692.931,"text":"改善了臺鐵的這個行車安全多少?"},{"start":7692.931,"end":7698.697,"text":"那餘裕簡報就是這樣的。 再來第二個第11月為什麼要選我李立?"},{"start":7698.697,"end":7709.908,"text":"因為我系統我學很多我在自駕車臺南的沙崙南科我們自駕載客營運覺得這都是我要加分的項目。 我這個要問院長"},{"start":7714.275,"end":7733.941,"text":"院長,列控4.0用在台鐵,臺南沙崙南科的自駕,你不會沒有聽過吧?被細節不用啊,做得好不好?還是現在有沒有開始營運啊?在你印象中啊?現在有沒有營運啊?應該是還沒有正式的,應該是試驗性的。"},{"start":7742.587,"end":7759.94,"text":"現在列共4.0在今年的4月台鐵那個部分台鐵是說他們已經驗收合格了對阿 你知道他在做什麼就是我要做的那在這個一個小塊做一個實驗做個實驗 啊實驗成功了他弄到台鐵 台鐵PASS你知道嗎"},{"start":7761.168,"end":7778.006,"text":"臺灣董事長怎麼說,他說對阿這個研究阿,但是CP值太貴了,所以他中間會撿幾項零件來繼續研究,就表示這個system,這個系統沒有被全部拿走了,他要拿這個系統去做下一個,你不是嚇死人嗎?簡單來說阿,"},{"start":7781.008,"end":7809.188,"text":"這都是現在的官員嘛齁,林信德主委在今年的4月,五個月前特別說了,行控4.0啊,其實剛完成POC啦,就是concept,還沒有進入POS跟POP啦,那還距離非常非常遠。可是你知道嗎,一個新產品或者一個新計畫,你一定要經過至少前兩個,前兩個,你拿去在外面印在名片上,我覺得那還算啦,就表示真的有點成果嘛。"},{"start":7810.165,"end":7828.844,"text":"那我覺得他講啊目前對於安全提升還沒有實質的效果因為根本沒有進一步的實驗照這樣現在看進一步實驗可能也不會找他嘛那臺南沙崙他作為作為這個機場PMS的優質旅業的條件我的天哪你知道這個評價是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":7830.697,"end":7859.657,"text":"他自駕因為在練習的時候沙河實驗啊在那邊的實驗都要一個人坐在那裡不敢讓他真正自駕那叫實驗一個人看著但是不准他動小手不准動腳也不要亂踩看這個車可不可以自己走結果啊他不敢小手亂帶小腳亂踢啊煞車油門啊人啊人為介入1288次啊那是不是自駕啊人為哎呦歪了轉一下"},{"start":7860.7,"end":7877.902,"text":"太快了 踩一下 這叫做全自駕嗎 天差地 所以委員 經濟部喔 實際成果不如預期 可是很糟糕齁 你知道嗎 他到政府標案裡面 因為履歷只是其一啦 拿著這個"},{"start":7880.672,"end":7891.821,"text":"政府也給他一個五千多萬一個七千多萬其實他用了他一包錢沒自己花拿出去變成他的履歷我覺得這個院長你覺得這個東西你未來要怎麼樣去把關啊"},{"start":7893.972,"end":7896.293,"text":"院長你聽到這樣的到目前為止後面還沒出來弄好你幹嘛做你會不會擔心"},{"start":7920.901,"end":7938.746,"text":"這樣得就是你趕快去做現在在吵架還在實驗你知道嗎當時講說要變過來每個學者講說技術成熟好像技術非常非常成熟結果得標之後是摸著石頭過河下一步水多生不知道趕快來救明天要開會了系統怎麼寫"},{"start":7941.087,"end":7963.137,"text":"這亂搞你敢不敢做,但是我跟你講,我們敢不敢做不重要,但是以他估的人次,以機場公司估多少人會做,他說初期一年大概6到700萬,如果成熟之後大概1000多萬個旅客在裡面,所以我們不能把旅客當白老鼠,那這個如果再這樣搞下去,我覺得這個"},{"start":7964.398,"end":7991.759,"text":"部長跟主委你們要認真幫院長介入因為院長話已經壓在這邊我們這整套出來要變成全世界看到我們文明的細節文明的細節而不是看到我們這麼粗心發生了這什麼回事那再來所以剛剛已經講了那李立跟公園院他兩個是什麼身份在一個標案裡面"},{"start":7993.444,"end":8013.546,"text":"不能你凶我弟喔!你我的計劃在同一標案、同樣的條件、時間、同樣的委員做出了成績。你不知道哪裡比較差一點,但是抱歉,你就是第二名的系統廠商。我覺得丁玲她講得比較好。"},{"start":8013.966,"end":8042.241,"text":"那現在呢他們兩個是同案按照採購法不同的團隊投標的廠商如果可以這樣換來換去最後你回答我可以這樣的話標完隨便換我覺得你簡報你比較好來弄完了可以換來換去可以這樣搞來搞去的話我跟你講以後在地方政府什麼事情啊那就不得了因為你選我弟啊大家一起來嘛後面搞不好你得標我也來做我覺得"},{"start":8043.806,"end":8069.434,"text":"主委是要非常慎重雖然採購法適應記者第36條有規定可是你要換包商換其他的分包商當然你要優於或者訓明理由可是你要換一起跟你標的主辦機關同意就是淘氣公司要同意那目前所謂更換承包商只是承運公司對外的說明"},{"start":8070.394,"end":8098.681,"text":"對待索爾裔建築媒體但是實際上並沒有做這樣的一個動作所以最終淘氣公司會做最後的決定目前淘氣公司還沒有所以報紙登李立還是工研院誰是分包三答案是李立嘛李立沒有問題嘛那我就覺得奇怪了那是要有人違法嗎我們再看一下2月份"},{"start":8100.685,"end":8107.93,"text":"陳韻德標正式開工2月19日﹖發生了什麼事情﹖他的系統承包商是上面紅色的李立﹖"},{"start":8110.506,"end":8137.154,"text":"二月3、4、5、6、7五個半月沒有找他開過一次會沒有找他的系統商 你們我們剛剛都公認喔他的系統商還是李立喔 還是李立喔 沒找他開一次會好 那找誰開會啊 別家的姑娘比較漂亮一剛開始喔 他關你什麼採購法 我覺得陳昀真的莫名其妙你知道嗎"},{"start":8139.333,"end":8161.065,"text":"採購法,公園院也莫名其妙,我跟你講公園院經濟部投資的喔,你提供這麼多你看看喔,2月2號提供什麼,自駕技術的介紹,也就算了。 3月10號提供什麼,我教你現控技術。 22號現控技術,29號把他的傳家寶高清地圖的定位,跟承運簡報。"},{"start":8162.662,"end":8191.047,"text":"然後6月份再跟陳韻,她不是分包商耶!她是對手的分包商耶!然後讓你看,物件追蹤、安全驗證、運算,我覺得離譜到極致。她跟,不是她的承包商、分包商,開了10次會。我跟你講,我覺得,院長,你這個,我認為是已經違法,或者已經非常接近違法了。為什麼?"},{"start":8192.744,"end":8219.71,"text":"你怎麼可以找他我還沒有改你法令上你還不是這個的分包商對公務員員來講你的know-how就是你的價值這是你的know-how你不會說我還沒有提供給他鋼筋水泥你的know-how你整個搬給他你知道搬給他做什麼嗎因為承運每個禮拜都要跟機場公司跟世西開一次會每次會議中經常要不要問到系統你的進度在哪裡"},{"start":8221.189,"end":8248.783,"text":"他沒有找履歷,資料從哪來的,你猜猜看好不好,可以這樣搞嗎?know-how是有價的喔,know-how是有價錢的喔,現控你給他,是政府人民的錢喔,經濟部給你這麼多研究的錢,你研究出來了,你沒有得標,你也沒有簽約,他也不會給你錢,機場公司也沒授權你,交通部也沒叫你去,經濟部也沒叫你去,你自己去跟他開了秘密會議10次。所以,"},{"start":8252.011,"end":8258.17,"text":"到底誰實質是神域的系統分包商?部長你看一下這張圖的話你覺得是誰?"},{"start":8260.606,"end":8263.368,"text":"你會來做什麼事你會來依法做什麼對不對依法簽約完整之後這前面叫什麼作弊前面要做什麼"},{"start":8290.56,"end":8290.74,"text":"主席"},{"start":8310.523,"end":8335.011,"text":"部長他就目前還沒有簽約還沒有換分包商嘛對不對那機場公司你說這個陳韻找陳韻找施夏找他也就算了機場公司我不知道機場公司到底知不知道知道6月14號他就上門要換陳包商但他6月26號說我不同意嘛所以機場公司的立場說我不同意你現在的分包商既有分包商就離地這機場的態度嘛"},{"start":8337.39,"end":8343.678,"text":"但不能假的嘛!很假!確定喔!來看一下機場公司的態度喔!話還沒講完喔!接著這個!機場公司在9月4號9月4號很近喔!我們剛剛從2月到8月喔!9月4號上個月"},{"start":8355.99,"end":8381.425,"text":"分包商說明辦理情形 承認報告我們未來的分包商會在陸續 因為什麼 八月剛講 八月底 八月28號嘛 已經開始囉六個月到囉 要陸續分包商要上來 給我們簡報 提供簡報給你審查這膽子多大 機場公司 9月4號欸 它不同意了欸 結果你看 那邊排什麼"},{"start":8382.881,"end":8405.027,"text":"我他排10月2號這個自駕操作跟10月9號車輛巡航報告分包商專業分包商設計者是誰公園院然後機場公司公務的孫副總主持會議你不會說我不知道吧你這樣報告就這樣子我覺得"},{"start":8407.304,"end":8420.7,"text":"他們知道而且他們有提醒釋法性跟要符合採購法的部分你這個寫上去對不對要是機場公司你不能這樣搞啊有一次要開會的時候你又沒有同意所以我是覺得齁"},{"start":8422.997,"end":8447.757,"text":"現在整個的部分幾個危機第一個因為採購法告來告去弄來弄去可能會變一個爛攤子有可能你的硬體完成之後管制區沒有交通工具可以接駁你是不是要變成開巴士還是怎樣我不清楚但現在再看已經要交卷了再一個半月是要全部我都已經審查完畢了"},{"start":8448.277,"end":8472.552,"text":"到現在都還沒有,還在那邊搞,我不知道機場公司說沒有換,但是也接受這個報告,我覺得莫名其妙。那其實最後啊,因為時間也不夠啦,現在因為一堆的問題,9月5、3號開會的時候,這個沒有完成,那個沒有完成,那最可怕的是,他應該要提供的,提供的風險管理計畫。"},{"start":8474.155,"end":8474.175,"text":"三、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":8483.84,"end":8484.06,"text":"主席"},{"start":8504.906,"end":8513.597,"text":"火災的問題要解決所以目前提醒用電安全消防安全消防安全我們問了就直接給你看最後了"},{"start":8519.568,"end":8520.989,"text":"目前發生什麼事呢?"},{"start":8520.989,"end":8533.978,"text":"消防安全,桃園機場有它自己的消防大隊,算是民營的組織,不是屬於消防組的,但是有160個人,它現在對電動巴士救災的器材只有"},{"start":8535.439,"end":8559.762,"text":"三塊滅火毯,當然啦,這個東西還要做很久嘛,可是滅火毯也沒有用啦,因為那是高價的嘛,它在天上嘛,你也沒辦法上去鋪啦齁。那除了這個之外,它還有最近弄了一些擋水板,那可能在軌道上面也沒有辦法用。所以在這樣的一個準備情況之下齁,我今天是提出來相關的一些問題。"},{"start":8561.957,"end":8563.378,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":8592.293,"end":8615.162,"text":"發言會現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是雲林縣臺溪婦女會的朋友,我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪。發言會交通組織質詢已詢答完畢,休息10分鐘,休息之後進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":9245.755,"end":9251.438,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會,進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢。請林委員配響質詢。請院長還有邱部長備詢。"},{"start":9283.53,"end":9303.557,"text":"林委員好左院長、邱部長我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到的這個三班一戶比我記得今年總統大選的時候提到說希望能加到1比6那我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣好謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":9309.443,"end":9337.203,"text":"三班醫護比現在目前是今年公告的醫院三班的護病比標準是經過大家的一個研議我們預計兩年後要入法當然這個中間必須要跟醫護團體跟各級的醫院代表共同來協商才能夠三方能夠取得共識所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法"},{"start":9339.306,"end":9365.444,"text":"現在我們當然就目前一直在督促所有的醫院來不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班都能夠達到我們現在需要的訂定的護病比並同時給他獎勵。好部長那我也順便再問一下我們全台灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題請問現在護士短缺請問你有什麼改善方案嗎?"},{"start":9366.977,"end":9379.458,"text":"現在是這樣子,如果說我們比較一頁的時候到現在,其實我們是增加了3萬095個衛護、醫護,在大家的努力之下,委員關心我們"},{"start":9381.249,"end":9391.603,"text":"行政院有很多措施,比較1月我們增加了3095人,在醫院這個部分就也增加了1513人,我們預計在明年能夠增加到7500人。"},{"start":9398.752,"end":9420.001,"text":"部長其實你你也知道我也知道這是遠遠不夠滿足不了需求的而老實說為什麼我這麼專關注這個問題因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會這點你知道而且你也知道說本來國發會是明年才進入進入超高齡社會但是今年就我這邊資料"},{"start":9421.081,"end":9438.27,"text":"加益縣、台中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上那邊的人口超過65歲以上所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候那現在護士的失蹤就變得比以前更嚴重"},{"start":9439.431,"end":9447.882,"text":"老實說,2026年可能全台灣正式會進入超高齡社會,而因為就變成全台灣的人口裡面有21%,有21%的全台灣,2400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。"},{"start":9454.491,"end":9455.411,"text":"我想日本比我們更早"},{"start":9480.407,"end":9502.059,"text":"日本嘛好所以日本的話其實在日本我們大家是我們是我們希望說我們未來社會國家變成一個典範可是院長老實說有一句話我們都不想提叫生不如死但是生不如死我講的不是其他的就是單單純純對於高齡化社會來講如果不能健康舒適的生活那麼長壽"},{"start":9503.9,"end":9504.16,"text":"可是在社會來講 部長"},{"start":9519.56,"end":9541.614,"text":"所謂的扶老比也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲以上的比例2014年我們全臺灣只有16.19%也就16%左右可是在今年就已經高達將近28%短短10年之間我們到達12%的人到65歲以上而且再來2027年可能將近到33%"},{"start":9543.413,"end":9553.761,"text":"所以這個問題就跟我們講說其實這個我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機但是高齡化的社會也是個國安危機喔"},{"start":9554.608,"end":9555.328,"text":"部長,您說是不是?"},{"start":9576.389,"end":9590.245,"text":"對,所以年齡的兩端年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢所以我們在年輕的我們用0到6歲國家養盡量鼓勵大家生養那麼在高齡的時候我們從"},{"start":9591.506,"end":9592.006,"text":"八字亮表"},{"start":9612.608,"end":9634.366,"text":"其實我們依據監察院的調查報告在113年111年的時候就已經有將近53萬的老人家需要家庭看護而其實登錄我們服務體系的照護人員不到10萬人我們引進了外籍看護工30多年到目前22萬人來支撐整個家庭的需求但是說真的"},{"start":9635.367,"end":9646.002,"text":"很多人在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴士量表這個關卡而且請問院長你知道因為巴士量表要申請外籍康復工衍生出來哪些問題嗎?"},{"start":9647.695,"end":9669.75,"text":"八字量表他的制度存在多年他現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途存在現在要申請一個看護我們有多元免評的方式其實八字量表只是當中多元免評多元當中一種條件他沒有八字量表還可以有其他的這個條件可以完成"},{"start":9678.717,"end":9691.873,"text":"我其實不是故意打斷,因為我覺得這件事我想問,剛剛邱部長有講到日本是極高齡社會的國家,那日本有沒有巴士量表?日本有沒有採用巴士量表?"},{"start":9698.226,"end":9723.861,"text":"還是請衛福部部長還是請勞工部部長請問日本有沒有使用巴士量表日本的如果說日本已經進入極高齡社會國家的話那事實上來講他們對長照我們也知道日本的長照系統長照照護比我們台灣好那請問日本他們怎麼使用巴士量表所以說是不是除了巴士量表之外有其他的方法來去鑑定說老人家需要照護呢"},{"start":9725.066,"end":9747.299,"text":"報告委員,其他國家不一定有巴氏量表,我剛剛跟委員報告的是巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些工人,比如他要申請一些在這個健康輔具上面他必須有一個資格認定等等,而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場它有一點點平衡的作用,但是現在不需要巴氏量表,還是可以經過多元免評的其他的"},{"start":9748.079,"end":9774.619,"text":"條件能夠申請到僱傭這才是重點其實我這邊為什麼特地講這個因為老實說如果讓這個扶幼這個扶老比繼續往上爬的話說真的對我們國家競爭力對我們不要講別人對我們這一輩的人只會越來越辛苦而且我們知道這樣的社會是來的所以說既然外籍看護是長照系統最重要的重要人力我會建議說把他們適合的整合進入長照系統"},{"start":9776.072,"end":9798.269,"text":"因為老實講如果你分成兩個互信甚至互相排擠的話那其實對於說整個我們台灣未來遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助甚至這樣講我直接這樣講好了去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人其中因為照顧65歲的家人無法工作的人超過15萬人"},{"start":9799.85,"end":9807.075,"text":"所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度像剛剛說的之外我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式讓需要照顧需要陪伴的人他可以更有彈性更激動的去得到一些必要的協助"},{"start":9827.049,"end":9851.963,"text":"是老實講我們都一直在講說高齡人口越來越多我剛剛提供的數據還是如果邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道說這是很嚴重的危機因為臺灣的平均年齡只是往上 只會往上走可是生產人生產子的人越來越少那如果說高齡人口越來越多供需早就供應不足或者是這個看護的話那請問院長您知不知時80歲以上"},{"start":9854.524,"end":9879.925,"text":"甚至70到79歲患有癌症二期的人免除巴氏量表即可申請外籍看護員看護功能現在多元免評裡面的條件就可以他不一定要巴氏量表他是可以申請到看護的不過很多時候他們還是就是說還是需要巴氏量表的話如果說只是單純不一定需要巴氏量表巴氏量表是剛剛說過他可能要"},{"start":9880.819,"end":9898.202,"text":"去做某一種功能跟目的去申請一些補助如果沒有這些事情他完全不需要其實院長這就是為什麼巴士量表這個案這問題上他會讓他覺得很不舒服不管是長照機構還是醫生還是各方面這個巴士量表人家又戲稱為功德量表"},{"start":9899.712,"end":9907.437,"text":"一聲不開會被罵一聲開了也被罵然後如果說一堆狀況因為巴士量保一直衍生出來對於大家都很頭痛那如果說一定會過嗎"},{"start":9912.028,"end":9939.561,"text":"老實講我們有太多我們現在法令上看到所遇到的狀況是說單純的是說他們需要巴士量表那他們一定要巴士量表他們才能過關可是因為他們的狀況不是完全符合院長你剛剛講提這個多元的這個這個多元的狀況請部長答覆一下現在用吧好是的我想剛剛院長跟部長勞動部部長都有提到我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人"},{"start":9940.168,"end":9968.785,"text":"那我們其實在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情那醫界的意見還是覺得有他的價值所以來篩檢一些但是他的年齡幾歲這個可以來討論這樣子你知道部長那我們就這樣講好了因為巴氏量表你知道如果成功申請巴氏量表從開始申請到成功申請到外勞動作要多久時間嗎"},{"start":9971.038,"end":9989.126,"text":"六個月 三個月你去申請 三個月他就安排外勞過來 六個月的時間我自己有個朋友他在六個月的時間他媽媽出現狀況之後他六個月的時間他不能申請外勞 他每天花三千塊一年花了四十五萬"},{"start":9990.146,"end":9995.268,"text":"我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴士量表就得到申請"},{"start":10016.909,"end":10038.861,"text":"另外一半可能他本身他符合這個巴斯亮表的規定,另外一半是不用,人數大概有6萬人左右,是不用巴斯亮表。 院長,這是我擔心的地方,因為... 我們已經全面在放寬,巴斯亮表有它存在的一些功能的目的。 為什麼我特意提80歲以上,為什麼我把它降低到70歲以上,為什麼是80歲以上,因為80歲以上在健康來講,在醫院,在醫療來講,是高風險族群。"},{"start":10045.782,"end":10046.423,"text":"刊錄工供給面的顧慮跟他的分析請部長答覆一下"},{"start":10064.957,"end":10065.537,"text":"有關缺工的問題"},{"start":10095.398,"end":10101.556,"text":"我們關區工的問題老實講我們現在有這麼多勞工但是老實說我們也很多外籍勞工在落跑"},{"start":10103.192,"end":10128.932,"text":"對吧,我們有差不多幾成,我記得當初跟我講三成還是更高,外籍勞工我們找了22萬人,不少人現在是找不到的,那變成是說外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道,所以我剛剛有特地提到說,能不能把外籍看護工,不是用這個總平均薪資差不多2萬3每日工作10個小時來去做,而是直接把它納入長勞體系,讓他們待遇可以好一點,"},{"start":10129.472,"end":10145.704,"text":"讓他們可以願意在臺灣留久一點他們願意工作比較實際一點比較實在一點我覺得這是下一步如果巴士量表我還是認為巴士量表應該考慮說因為部長也好院長也好80歲離我們很近而且隨時都會搏鬥"},{"start":10147.349,"end":10169.231,"text":"一個跌倒本來很健康的人馬上就變失智有沒有可能有我身邊看到好多這種狀況那等到說你跌倒之後再急急忙忙去找一個外勞老實說他本來就需要他本來就有資格但是如果他如果沒有用如果老實說沒有人希望被如果沒有一個年長者會希望被人家看扶著跟老人一樣沒有人會希望"},{"start":10169.651,"end":10170.111,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長"},{"start":10202.915,"end":10218.295,"text":"下一位,請黃珊珊委員質詢。謝謝主席,我請左院長還有邱部長。請左院長、邱部長備詢。"},{"start":10229.335,"end":10247.8,"text":"黃委員好 石院長好 部長好 我想請問兩位都滿65歲了嗎 當然 已經滿了 所以院長您打過疫苗了嗎 打過 打了 今年打了 有上半年打過 上半年打過 10月1號的流感疫苗跟新冠疫苗你打了嗎"},{"start":10248.91,"end":10253.712,"text":"新冠疫苗只有56萬人。 部長,發生了什麼事?為什麼差這麼大?"},{"start":10278.328,"end":10278.468,"text":"主席"},{"start":10296.09,"end":10320.519,"text":"所以第一個宣導就是10月1號我就是所以太少人是不知道還是不敢打新冠疫苗首先講流感疫苗流感疫苗基本上大家都都願意打了願意打了好了部長院長我的問題是你這600萬劑要打的話如果你現在的宣導速度我覺得有點慢是不是可以再多"},{"start":10321.467,"end":10323.549,"text":"時間暫停,我請那個時間暫停,部長請回這個直接問院長好了,院長我現在很簡單的問一下齁"},{"start":10350.936,"end":10377.598,"text":"部長請回部長可以請回我簡單問一下賴清德總統說要推動亞洲金融科技創新中心這是非常重要的政策那看起來我們目前為止金融科技其實有在推但大部分是民間在推可是國內的金控公司對於轉投資所謂的新創其實從我們調他們的資料除了凱基金超過100億以上"},{"start":10379.159,"end":10400.018,"text":"其他幾乎興趣缺缺,總金額佔它的淨值不到5%,也就是說金融創新在金融業並不是那麼受歡迎。然後現在我們看到了,很多的單位都來向院長要錢,環境部要做綠色成長基金,然後文化部已經拿到文化創意產業的將近98億,"},{"start":10403.311,"end":10425.645,"text":"智慧、健康、國發基金要給他9月6號給他相關的也大概是百億的基金。 然後綠色成長的環境部現在又要提出一個百億基金。 四個百億基金我現在在這邊幫金管會請命。 院長是不是可以有第五支箭促成國內金融科技的杜教授。 比照這四大基金。"},{"start":10428.077,"end":10447.428,"text":"黃委員,您也呆過地方政府,您也知道... 因為這是國發基金裡面可以動用的錢,所以如果可以的話,部長已經跟你現在在申請,所以院長,金融科技發展我認為也是重要的,所以環境部這筆錢要不要得到,那金融科技是不是院長也考慮一下?"},{"start":10448.851,"end":10448.871,"text":"院長﹚"},{"start":10477.591,"end":10482.754,"text":"這是基隆的協和電廠協和電廠在8月的臺電的官網在8月的時候還告訴我們基隆人說我們3號4號會在2024年的年底要除役"},{"start":10506.653,"end":10528.633,"text":"這是今年8月都還在這樣說可是最近我們再去問他現在的經濟部說臺電說新的燃氣組大概7年後會上線協和3號4號還是要繼續運轉所以現在部長你們知道他們要除役還是不除役目前按照規劃是要除役要除役那他現在還要再運轉那現在是到底誰在說謊"},{"start":10529.948,"end":10554.278,"text":"現在其實他是在緊急備用而已備用這就是我的問題了 院長這個協和電廠他是燒重油的他燒油每發一度電他是成本就要7塊半他賣一度電只拿回3塊也就是在協和電廠燃油每發一度電就賠4.5塊他去年一整年發了24.2億的電他賠了上百億請問"},{"start":10559.411,"end":10560.991,"text":"我們是管制他不能超過一定的時數是 所以這個部分我是覺得啦"},{"start":10589.246,"end":10617.779,"text":"如果要這樣子下去重點是這一句話今年520院長上任然後我們的經濟部長非常快速的接受媒體的專訪然後說了一句世界必推動沒有替代方案世界還在環評環評的過程還在討論現在還在不見在5月份的時候我們的經濟部長就直接說沒有替代方案然後環境部長跑出來說"},{"start":10619.724,"end":10642.075,"text":"我們堅守專業、嚴守立場。彭部長我很佩服你,你說了一句話,環境部不是經濟部的環保署,所以今天要問的是院長。一個還在環評階段的過程,經濟部可以這樣子隨意的說出沒有替代方案嗎?"},{"start":10643.186,"end":10645.388,"text":"環境部做好環境保護的各種評鑑的責任。 環境部的台電它的"},{"start":10658.624,"end":10660.126,"text":"萬一環評沒有過呢?萬一環評沒有過呢?萬一環評沒有過呢?"},{"start":10660.126,"end":10662.388,"text":"院長,沒有替代方這件事情不應該是出自於行政首長。"},{"start":10674.361,"end":10693.009,"text":"而是我們要如何尊重環境部的專業審查,然後去找替代方案。 任何一個州長,為了他的業務,他必須要勇敢地去執行。 執行的過程當中,環境部所有的規定他都必須要遵守。好,重點是院長遵守環境部的環評委員的專業審查吧。"},{"start":10694.599,"end":10702.406,"text":"我們從過去到現在一直對於環評的過程是很重視的。所以萬一沒有過是不是要找替代方案?"},{"start":10702.406,"end":10708.532,"text":"院長你不要告訴我你的答案也是沒有替代方案。不要說萬一沒有過如果真的沒有過那協和電廠以後就沒有辦法發電了。你會不會找替代方案?現在"},{"start":10712.728,"end":10742.078,"text":"目前是還沒有想到任何的替代方案,因為現在還在努力環評的過程。所以院長,我希望的是您的部分一樣尊重專業。當然。再講一次,環境部不是經濟部的環保署。對,一直都不是。是,所以我很,我希望部長能夠堅守這個專業,尤其是如果真的沒有通過,我們真的要有替代方案,好嗎?院長。好,接下來部長請回,我請邱部長。"},{"start":10757.981,"end":10760.603,"text":"接下來大家都知道明年我們就是超高齡社會15年後老人會占30%25年後老人會占40%"},{"start":10788.141,"end":10809.038,"text":"這是一個非常非常快速老化的社會。 現在的長照相關的經費政府撥了每年八九百億。 院長也很認真把各部份的錢全部加進來大概有九百多億。 這是一件好事但是長照的經費長期來說它有一個很嚴重的問題是不夠不穩。"},{"start":10811.178,"end":10836.939,"text":"什麼叫不夠呢現在的支出從之前長照基金還算收入大於支出可是在這兩年已經開始你可以看到從106年開辦到現在113年已經少了40幾億然後今年明年預估的我們有支出要879億收入大概只有758億其他大概都要靠政府的挹注所以長照基金"},{"start":10837.458,"end":10848.165,"text":"即將日不復出,也就是在高度老化的情況下長照基金可能會越來越不穩,然後不穩的原因是什麼?"},{"start":10848.165,"end":10856.17,"text":"院長這是最嚴重的問題,因為它來自於不確定醫政稅,不健康的菸酒稅"},{"start":10857.083,"end":10883.593,"text":"還有炒房的跟景氣有關的房地和遺稅這三樣東西來自所謂的不確定政府要靠有錢人或者是很多的遺產突然一個企業家過世我們才會有突然間大筆的遺贈稅所以這個金額你可以從幾億到幾百億不一定所以他是一個不穩定的財源第二個是不健康"},{"start":10885.55,"end":10910.691,"text":"菸酒稅是一個很不健康的稅,部長對吧?你很希望很多菸酒稅嗎?以衛福部的立場是菸酒稅越少越好對不對?是,所以你看,院長可以看到我們現在的菸酒稅它其實大概已經到頂了,兩百多億,而且在減少中,表示衛福部的宣導還是有些功效。這是好事,但是這個財稅、財源不穩。"},{"start":10913.24,"end":10942.461,"text":"第三個部分是房地合一稅從這個金額您可以看到從幾十億到現在112年房地合一稅高達500多億所以你會發現我們長照的錢購其實它是來自於一個投機炒作的錢這個錢跟景氣有關而且也是要碰運氣所以院長這幾樣稅源其實都不是太穩定這是我們認為長照到今天為止大家認為說好像還可以可是未來的幾年我們非常非常的憂心"},{"start":10943.988,"end":10972.349,"text":"另外就是,我不知道部長你覺得現在我們的長照涵蓋率跟我們做得好不好?部長,你要不告訴我,你現在覺得長照做得好不好?長照我們一定全力讓他不要遺漏任何一個需要長照但是,現在剛剛前面林培祥委員所說的外籍看護的部分其實他不在長照涵蓋率裡面他是靠著外籍勞工來分擔政府長照的責任"},{"start":10973.169,"end":10997.374,"text":"接下去的65歲以上的人口目前按照衛福部的推估將來每10個人就1.3個人是失能依照這個推估的話到去年我們將近有86萬的失能者但是有十幾萬人其實是沒有來使用所謂的長照服務也就是說剛剛部長說的有人被漏掉了中間可能有一半一大半是用了外籍看護工"},{"start":10998.809,"end":11027.919,"text":"所以部長今天我要討論的是長照保險在去年11月的民調家庭照顧者協會他們做的民調90%的民眾是願意自己先出一點點錢將來照顧自己多一點比照全民健保全民納保的概念80%的民眾贊成用全民健保的方式來推動長照保險而且現在坊間的商業保險也非常多的長照險"},{"start":11028.587,"end":11028.727,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":11040.491,"end":11067.502,"text":"臺灣是比日本在更短的時間內進入到高齡社會,所以日本的例子我們當然可以來當參考,但是無法完全的補充。所以我知道我們要建立一個更好的制度,所以這是德國在1995年他們人口佔比15%的時候就推動了,日本是在2000年推動,當時的老年人是17,那更重要跟我們相近的2008年的南韓,他也推動長照寫。"},{"start":11068.502,"end":11096.805,"text":"而且現在目前為止全國的我們全世界大概投入在OECD國家平均投入長照費用經費的部分應該是在GDP1%1.7%臺灣只佔0.26%也就是我們政府的挹注其實不夠所以長照保險讓人民出一點讓政府出一點讓大家為了自己的未來都出一點這個是我們希望"},{"start":11097.984,"end":11115.379,"text":"部長你去考察過,你的想法是什麼?是,我想我們這幾年來,我想委員非常重視社區的一個力量,過去也幫忙非常多所以我們希望長照成為我們社區政府,最後我想我時間有限,跟院長一個"},{"start":11117.072,"end":11130.659,"text":"這個就是長照險應該是最基礎的上面你可以去買商業保險就像醫療險一樣接下去才是家庭互助最後才是自費市場但是沒有長照險的情況下現在就叫做長照杯哥現在就叫做"},{"start":11151.137,"end":11168.466,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告委員會,現在在議場二樓旁聽喜的是高雄市橋頭區環保促進會的朋友。我們這邊歡迎他們。下一位請陳昭志委員質詢。"},{"start":11183.555,"end":11187.542,"text":"謝謝主席 有請卓院長、邱部長委員長、邱部長請備選"},{"start":11196.315,"end":11222.025,"text":"陳委員好 院長好部長好 院長質詢期間總質詢期間辛苦你們了不會的 院長當初蔡政府要開放萊豬進口的時候當時有66%的民意因為食安的疑慮他是反對的但是因為那時候有國會的優勢所以還是闖過關了所以這個部分程度可以說明民進黨想推動什麼法案大概就會去過什麼樣的法案"},{"start":11222.665,"end":11250.574,"text":"那所謂的社會共識大概只有在這個不想推動什麼法案的時候就會一直講沒有社會共識沒有社會共識那為什麼我要這樣說呢以代孕法案來說三次國家的民調平均有六成的民眾是贊成的兩成的不反對就是有八成的民意基礎但是近日幾位民進黨立委在委員會質詢的時候還是說沒有共識所以我這裡要請教部長"},{"start":11251.654,"end":11256.66,"text":"如果要做最近的例子來看我覺得成立運動部的共識是很高的我們一直以這個當作"},{"start":11269.755,"end":11297.682,"text":"國會跟立法院以及全社會來做合作的一個很好的典範跟例子這是一個很高的共識那至於說當初美國萊豬的問題那是因為我們有科學的根據用國際的標準也保障大家安全的前提謝謝院長萊豬我也理解院長請看下一張投影片上的話對於生殖激凌有障礙的病人我們應該以更寬大包容性來幫助他們而非只是一味要求他們放棄生育權利"},{"start":11298.462,"end":11300.102,"text":"請問院長,您知道這段話出自何人嗎?那你認同這段話嗎?我基本上是認同的。"},{"start":11325.902,"end":11348.802,"text":"院長這是賴清德立委在2020年提出的代孕人工生殖法案這個草案的提案說明謝謝你剛好也是認同的但是很遺憾5年後2007年人工生殖法僅僅包含了捐精捐卵還是排除了代孕迄今20幾年那當時的賴清德立委現在已經是賴清德總統了今年國宴520"},{"start":11350.043,"end":11374.821,"text":"我親自向他再確認我說賴總統你還支持代孕嗎他告訴我他支持代孕的態度一直都沒有改變那當時在我旁邊還有好幾位立委包括這個貴黨的許智傑立委院長行政院是否該將代孕解禁了呢還是兩位你們要繼續打臉賴立委賴總統呢是不是該解禁了報告委員"},{"start":11376.278,"end":11395.717,"text":"總統有告訴過我當時國務院那天你們講話的那個場景,他也認為說在事實的情況底下,臺灣社會已經朝向更開放、更進步、更多元的時代,是可以研究的。 像人工生殖跟代理孕母這兩個議題,"},{"start":11396.834,"end":11397.435,"text":"請問院長您支持衛福部的版本嗎?"},{"start":11417.784,"end":11431.559,"text":"請貴婦先說明一下我要請教院長因為您的態度很重要因為我們還沒有送到行政院所以我先報告一下現在晚上我們已經在7月13日結束議告期我們有開了大概十幾次的專家會議"},{"start":11432.6,"end":11456.367,"text":"那以目前來講,我們還是能把那個代理硬碼放在裡面。因為院長知道總統的態度,這是非常重要。預計11月底或12月送到行政院。為什麼我覺得院長態度很重要,院長其實多年來每次衛福部都有提出代孕的修法,但是都被行政院性平衛的委員連署反對。"},{"start":11457.407,"end":11459.489,"text":"今年3月長期擔任性評會委員的黃淑英"},{"start":11481.252,"end":11509.474,"text":"在姓名會的會期會封殺代孕這個議程,他不讓代孕進入議程討論。他近期告訴人家說代孕是寄予別人的子宮。我很想回他,你有種、有本事、有膽,你就這樣等待器官捐贈的人說,你們在寄予別人的器官。院長我要講的是,運行行政院的姓名會那也長期聘了這幾位態度偏激、心理變態的委員呢?"},{"start":11511.22,"end":11512.72,"text":"政府所有的各類的委員會裡面如果有"},{"start":11541.595,"end":11546.198,"text":"外界民間人士參與,我們都會廣泛多元的邀請各種聲音不同的代表。"},{"start":11572.036,"end":11600.257,"text":"姓平慧當然是院內的一個委員會一個組織那所有的決議行政院有自己政策上的目標跟決定因為你上次回答我是人民在當家我已經告訴你民意如此這個是有證據可考察的然後我可以告訴你一些內幕林全在當院長的時候這個姓平慧非常的囂張一直都很囂張的他很忍耐聽了幾個小時蘇院長的時候主持了一次以後他說不用再召開了"},{"start":11601.558,"end":11618.585,"text":"賴院長主持會曾經公開講說,你們記好你們的角色,你們是質疑委員。 院長你剛剛也提出了,這些人是質疑委員,不是決策委員。 是的是憲平會在統治台灣嗎?還是您在治理台灣?是賴總統在治理台灣?"},{"start":11618.585,"end":11620.686,"text":"院長我要你拿出魄力。"},{"start":11622.1,"end":11642.358,"text":"不要讓姓平慧爬到你的頭上去國家有國家的立場姓平慧不是太像我們機關那因為您是召集人嘛您是召集人部長您是委員喔如果人工生技法案這次再進到姓平慧他們又反對了那你們要不要捍衛部長您要不要捍衛你的版本院長您要不要捍衛政府的版本你要不要捍衛"},{"start":11644.693,"end":11673.58,"text":"我一定會說明我一定會說明我們版本的他的意義以及他考量以及到妹妹聚到照顧到兒童小孩的潛力照顧到母親你不捍衛你還當什麼部長對不對新民委員如果有過去的疑問我想我們會用現在的專業跟現在的發展來回覆希望能夠取得理解那麼有新發生的問題我們共同來討論一個解決的方式人類社會行為已經很久執政者有意為為自己的政策辯護嗎"},{"start":11674.6,"end":11676.942,"text":"我已經告訴你有幾個變態的委員在裡面阿講了那些不像話的人 不像話的話阿"},{"start":11705.54,"end":11727.28,"text":"委員長,為代孕做辯護,我資料都幫您準備好了。衛生署、國健署共兩次公民會議,得到非常積極正面的結論,是積極正面,不是無比於我。國健署三次全國性民調,等一下我會給你看,壓倒性的支持。另外還有一份是,這個是民國88年,衛生署研究報告,主持人是婦產科全衛,他現在還在照顧病人,叫曾啟瑞教授。"},{"start":11728.122,"end":11737.104,"text":"主題是《代理運母國際現況分析》,研究結論是這樣的,長期以來我們從宗教、倫理、女權、法律各個觀點來不斷地爭辯,但是我們經常忽略主角本身。"},{"start":11738.123,"end":11757.538,"text":"委託夫妻和代理孕母夫妻禁止不等於不會發生禁止不等於不會發生尤其代理孕母她本質並非本質為惡的行為在禁止的情況下只會使當事人在沒有保障的情況下秘密進行代理孕母行為這對當事人跟他的子女都不會更有利的我也偷跑過啊"},{"start":11759.658,"end":11778.931,"text":"請記得這個是衛生署的研究計畫所出的結論。好,再下一張也是,民國99年衛生署還有個研究主題,世界各國代孕升值政策討論。結論很清楚,代孕增值已久,當初開始推動代孕的不孕者經歷這麼多年以難享有代孕政策開放的果實。這講的就是我啦,陳昭芝啦。"},{"start":11780.732,"end":11797.479,"text":"即便但是今天通過我也沒辦法用但是但是我背後站著很多根據專家評估大概有數千人苦苦等待這個法案我們繼續看本研究的結論他說我國人民結婚年齡不斷延後不育人口逐漸增加十幾年前就是發現"},{"start":11798.559,"end":11811.078,"text":"大運需求與日俱增,開放大運已成為世界潮流,希望本研究的成果有助於大運法規的及早的訂定跟施行,讓博運附近能享有現代生殖科技帶來的喜悅。 院長這是99年,現在是83年,你對餒。"},{"start":11816.755,"end":11843.144,"text":"院長反對這30多年來,論述都一樣,只稱這是剝削女性這個物化子宮。 他們一直用臆測沒有發生的事情來扼殺真實存在的不孕夫妻的一線生機。 從衛生署到衛福部都研究了各國的政策。 他們去拿印度會發生事情來累推台灣。 我請教院長,你覺得我們國家的法規會比較走歐美的方向,歐美國家方向,還是去學習印度呢?"},{"start":11844.786,"end":11851.445,"text":"您覺得您的政策我們要學習是進步但適合我國情的我們適合印度嗎"},{"start":11852.816,"end":11876.819,"text":"我們是適合歐美國家還是印度?看什麼法規啊?有!我們還有可以向印度學習的,我還不知道有這件事情。印度的軟體就很進步。我要告訴院長,這份報告的協同主任叫做林志傑教授。他是非常優秀的法律學者,也是貴黨的同志。我很慶幸他成為本屆的信聽會委員。希望院長好好拜讀他的研究,也希望政府用科學、用法律"},{"start":11878.6,"end":11904.92,"text":"來擺脫那群有被害妄想症的女人,尤其自認為是女權主義者。 邱部長,衛福部的草案已經擬了一段時間,收集了一堆意見,你也承認它跟過去的想法都一樣,可是這幾十年來醫學在進步,民情更開放,反對著同一套論述,就是在浪費虛職有需求人的生命跟青春。 那叫什麼呢?"},{"start":11904.92,"end":11905.38,"text":"把人家死不了啦!"},{"start":11908.946,"end":11930.317,"text":"當初人工生殖立法的時候﹖反對者說待遇要跟捐精捐卵脫鉤﹖他們得逞了﹖現在子宮有病民是被凌遲了20幾年﹖好,行政院、立法院如今都要重新再修法﹖這群反對者又說待遇要跟單身跟同志脫鉤﹖又來了!"},{"start":11934.888,"end":11937.87,"text":"憑什麼子宮有病變女性就要一再被欺壓?"},{"start":11937.87,"end":11938.29,"text":"一再被拋棄?"},{"start":11938.29,"end":11943.473,"text":"捐精捐耳的問題會比代孕輕微嗎?"},{"start":11943.473,"end":11948.755,"text":"單身同志產生的問題會比代孕夫妻更輕微嗎?"},{"start":11948.755,"end":11961.862,"text":"我要重複20年前 我有感而發我留下一段很無奈的話 如果再繼續阻擋代孕的話 我說那就是政府欺負人民 健康人欺負有病的人 有子宮的人欺負沒有子宮的人"},{"start":11963.936,"end":11987.832,"text":"部長你也說問題在重複嘛,你願意加速這個行政程序,您說過這樣的話在委員會執行的時候,院長您支持他的做法嗎?加速行政程序?當然支持,如果社會有共識一個好的公共政策,行政程序趕快推動,對大家好當然支持。請稍等,我們剛剛已經對社會共識的有一段時間的這個討論,社會共識是有一個問號的,好,但是我已經用科學證據告訴你,社會是有共識的。"},{"start":11988.252,"end":12010.092,"text":"現在有一群團體跟民進黨立委被黃淑英們洗腦,喊著要脫鉤,我必須再說,無論是代孕、單身或同志,民眾黨跟我的版本是全韓瓜的喔!全韓瓜的喔!我先說前提,如果真的要脫鉤,也是代孕優先啊!為什麼?如同高雄常跟副常科教授、蘭國中教授近日所言,"},{"start":12010.532,"end":12026.375,"text":"但已經奮鬥20幾年來來回回太久了但議題發展得比較成熟而同性伴侶跟單身是這幾年來出現的社會議題如果擔心後案延遲前案"},{"start":12027.296,"end":12052.836,"text":"要優先的是藍教授講,不是我講的齁,也是在以病人的需求為優先,要儘速通過這個讓不孕女性可以用代孕,因為所謂的代孕就是子宮有病變嘛,那至於單身同性這是一個比較社會性的議題嘛,所以藍教授一直是說先病人的需求再來談社會,當然同步最好,他提出了這樣的論點,您接受嗎?一個醫師照顧病人那麼多的醫師。"},{"start":12053.979,"end":12068.385,"text":"我當然會尊重專業醫師的看法病人嘛病人99年你來看看病長你從政一輩子你也就任何意見的平台都可以操作但是我給你的是科學性的民調國家民調這是民國99年國建署的民調當時15年前就分別有53.5的人或60.3的人"},{"start":12074.768,"end":12102.905,"text":"他支持因為子宮有問題而進行待遇前面是夫妻後面是女性他們就這樣問那基本上當時就是超過了就是是多數多數支持好102年國建署非常小心謹慎又做了第二次民調結果顯示有68%的民眾他不贊成繼續完全禁止因為當時是當時是禁止的有85%的民眾贊成在有配套情況下開放待遇給有需要的人"},{"start":12103.405,"end":12108.888,"text":"那我們現在修法不就是在想辦法建立制度擬定配套嗎?"},{"start":12108.888,"end":12116.252,"text":"院長,當時這個政界有85%的支持,這是你國建署自己做的呢?"},{"start":12116.252,"end":12118.793,"text":"12年前的民調現在會倒退路嗎?"},{"start":12118.793,"end":12121.674,"text":"現在的民情是更開放喔,會倒退路嗎?"},{"start":12121.674,"end":12121.915,"text":"不會嘛!"},{"start":12124.366,"end":12143.8,"text":"國建署實在太認真了,104年又做了第三次民調,這次題目跟直接問有人認為台灣應該完全禁止代孕,無論任何情況任何配套都不允許代孕但有人認為說,如果政府制定配套,允許某些人在特定條件規範下去委託代孕,請問你比較贊成哪一方?"},{"start":12144.92,"end":12173.309,"text":"結果有52%的人支持部分開放待遇,66%贊成完全開放,也就是我剛剛談的6成的人支持台灣有待遇制度,還有18%的民眾認為他沒有意見,他可以接受,他沒有意見。 院長這是一個進步的法案加上80%的民意接受度,我不知道你們在猶豫什麼。 院長進步法案加8成的民意支持,你們在猶豫什麼?"},{"start":12175.154,"end":12199.66,"text":"還有以前是人權問題嘛現在是國安務議議題阿民進黨執政後2016年當時出征20萬人阿那現在每年降1萬阿去年13萬阿今年是農年阿去年的前8個月跟今年前8個月比院長你知道還少多少人嗎農年喔還比去年少你知道少多少人嗎你知道嗎我辦公室每天貼阿少3000人對今年要守住13萬很困難"},{"start":12201.062,"end":12225.295,"text":"委員長你不擔心王國滅種嗎?當然擔心啊!所以我們開了好幾次人口對策會議啊!但是不怕生、想養的人就是要趕快幫助他啊!我們鼓勵你出生的時候一年四十幾萬喔!現在是十幾萬喔!好,我再強調一次,我的版本是包含代孕、單身跟所有同志,我主張全部納入。那但是為什麼以黃淑英為首這種脫鉤論?憑什麼代孕要被脫鉤?要被延後、要被處理?其實就是不準啊!"},{"start":12227.152,"end":12227.692,"text":"有辦過公民會議嗎?"},{"start":12227.692,"end":12229.253,"text":"有辦過全國性民調嗎?"},{"start":12229.253,"end":12230.774,"text":"如果都沒有,相比之下為什麼待遇要被脫鉤?"},{"start":12230.774,"end":12230.794,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":12245.017,"end":12270.62,"text":"如果衛福部最後的版本送出來沒有待遇,或是完整人工生殖法案,走不出行政院大門,要被姓評會再來擋住,我必須很遺憾地說,院長,那你就是讓台灣有姓評會在統治喔!你們就是打臉賴清德立委、賴清德總統喔!如果事情發生,我就在這邊跟你申請,我今天要跟你申請,我要成為姓評會委員,我有資格嗎?你認為我有資格嗎?"},{"start":12271.684,"end":12298.033,"text":"大院委員不需要成為性平衛會的委員都可以向行政院表現...沒有沒有,我要擔任性平衛委員,我有資格嗎?資格遠遠超過,但是不需要,你不需要成為性平衛...為什麼我告訴你我有資格?因為你的師父,謝長廷院長在2005年到2006年就聘我為性平衛委員我後來因為議員太滿了...你以前是國會議員,就不需要成為性平衛委員當時叫婦權會,我已經擔任過,我當然有資格但是我希望性平衛好好做事,不要找一些心理變態的人在裡面搞"},{"start":12300.39,"end":12323.738,"text":"部長現在下來我想跟你,不過我還是要先請教院長,好,我們回到醫療體系,我覺得衛福部在執壞球在打假球,為什麼這樣講呢?整個醫療體系有一些重大的問題,每個人終身都會受到醫療照顧,都會有求於醫療這個服務,但是也不能因此相悅嘛,因為醫療改革越好越進步,那我們每個人都會受惠,那從某個角度來看為什麼我會講出這麼嚴重的話,這個打假球執壞球,"},{"start":12328.159,"end":12337.405,"text":"我想請教院長,您對分級醫療了解嗎?大概有概念嗎?是,推行了很多年,但是並沒有落實。分級醫療,好,我們來看一下賴總統的態度。應該要落實大家醫的制度,也就是轉整分級醫療能夠更加的落實。"},{"start":12355.639,"end":12384.002,"text":"謝謝,我們先停,因為他那邊講了很多話,他不只講一次,分級醫療,好,然後再來看下一張圖,柏中這是你餒,柏中這是你餒,你看你現在復仇零次餒,我當然想2018年推動分級醫療,現在淪為口號,現在分級醫療大崩壞餒,為什麼大崩壞我等一下把數字給你看,你都講給我,分級醫療,賴總統也要分級醫療,那個院長,我請你看這張圖,別人不告訴你真相,我告訴你真相。"},{"start":12385.083,"end":12405.986,"text":"左邊這張圖是健保開辦1995年,醫學中心13家,區醫院48家,地區醫院有568家,這是一個非常穩健的正三角形的醫療架構,非常穩但是健保執行20幾年之後,你看長成這個樣子,醫學中心越來越多,區醫院大型區醫院越來越多,但是地區醫院縮少到"},{"start":12407.202,"end":12435.754,"text":"三百一十三家幾乎腰斬好今年的醫院這個評鑑公布了醫學中心有二十六家我來告訴院長院長二十六家醫學中心都在做軍備競賽所謂的重大醫療設備全世界都說臺灣是密度最高的地方動輒幾億幾十億的這個是非常奇怪的現象然後民眾會往這裡跑然後收費也非常高昂沒有一個國家是這樣搞的"},{"start":12437.887,"end":12463.982,"text":"我這樣說,部長你好像心裡有數,如果繼續補考的話,未來的架構變什麼,請院長看最右邊這個圖。到底最後我們的醫療架構會變成一個倒三角形還是這個散狀?總之它的底部就是萎縮了。那後遺症是什麼?受害追求的民眾不會清楚,但是意見都心知肚明。邱部長你一定知道啦,我想請教院長,院長你覺得罪魁禍首是誰呢?禍首?"},{"start":12465.489,"end":12489.33,"text":"我跟委員報告我過去在議會或立法院的時代我比較接觸最多的是基層醫療協會如果這個轉診制度的落實起來的話基層醫療也會很堅強到社區裡面的診所也會很堅強基層醫療一定是支持我們分級醫療的做法為什麼我說衛福部要首當其衝因為你是主的單位"},{"start":12489.71,"end":12490.431,"text":"那民眾往這邊跑 蛤 怎麼辦"},{"start":12513.357,"end":12541.36,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣,你擋得住嗎?要成立一個醫學中心,必須它有相當的人口,一定的條件。兩百萬人?對,兩百萬的人口以上。所以,我們只要12家就好了,現在我們26家,好嗎?院長,謝謝你也理解這個醫療網計畫的規範。院長,賴總統努力推動健康台灣,也召開過很多的研討會跟這個活動,變了60億,欸60億不是小數目,因為癌症病有推,努力好多年,好不容易拿到50億的那個今年拿到,明年拿到50億的癌症心藥基金。"},{"start":12541.98,"end":12564.654,"text":"那我目前收到健康臺灣的這個草案計畫裡面只寫的四個範疇優化醫療工作條件規劃多元人才培育導入智慧科技醫療社會責任醫療永續我想從大方向大院長簡單講您覺得這個經費怎麼分配你會集中在某一些醫院嗎就是我大概先了解您的初步想法這是大院長的政策"},{"start":12566.194,"end":12589.429,"text":"健康臺灣是從選舉前一個大型論壇集合大家的意見之後,形成一個最後的深耕計畫,那深耕計畫當然要透過衛福部去執行下去,這幾次沒有執行,你必須透過衛福部去執行下去。 我知道現在沒有細節,因為我也收不到,所以衛福部有沒有思考過,是不是要協助我剛剛講,我先讓你看那個分級醫療已經長得很畸形了嘛,"},{"start":12589.989,"end":12613.547,"text":"那你是不是要有相當以上,譬如說一半的經費是拿來支持地區醫院、基層、甚至社區藥局有更多的資源去聘優秀的醫事人員?就是你要照顧社區醫院跟基層啊,讓它下面的底部要很穩啊,要很穩啊。委員長可以往這個方向?我報告一下,真的很感謝您關心健康台灣生產計畫。"},{"start":12614.928,"end":12631.344,"text":"這個就是仿照我們頂大計,就是說頂尖大學五年五百億的一個計畫,能夠螺製更多的人才我那個有爭議喔,你到底要在精英大學還是普遍的大學來支持?這種概念之下來引導,但是這個經會請放心,第一年"},{"start":12635.305,"end":12664.008,"text":"我跟那個委員一樣,我從小到大,就是到現在完全沒有改變,就是支持分級醫療,雙向轉整,加強primary health care,這是WHO的趨勢。你看我所有的論述,幾百篇論述,絕對都是想辦法要達到讓人民能夠得到一個最accessible的一個狀況。然後那個在深耕計畫裡面,即使你放心,"},{"start":12664.528,"end":12681.756,"text":"我們用盡了腦筋,它重要的是要有創新模式,希望過去的弊病,包括比如說基層醫療沒有辦法發揮戰力,我們有一個模式讓它戰力。我剛剛是請廖院長大方向,但是那個四項範疇,優化醫療更多條件,就是說會納入哪些醫事員如何優化,你是加薪還是互併比?"},{"start":12689.939,"end":12718.352,"text":"這個賴總統承諾兩年內要互併筆要入法欸互併筆我們有一個什麼樣的KPI對不對這是第一個目標一個對優化工作條件嘛規劃多這個多元人才培育台灣業績需要什麼我想院長您也可以部長一定要知道的院長你知道傳統科別內外負荷跟重症科是相對不足的五官科比較沒有壓力的五官科是很搶手的啊那你這個計畫能不能解決這個問題有要也要也要我們缺的"},{"start":12719.386,"end":12721.347,"text":"社會責任跟醫療永續,要談永續就要想好怎麼幫醫院減碳"},{"start":12739.573,"end":12757.873,"text":"有包括這個部份有包括這個部份能源管理醫療廢棄物,現在醫療廢棄物就跑出暢生宿,今天我沒有空處理你是不是已經有這個方針跟指引讓醫院有一個方向走?你很忙欸部長,很多事要做欸,這個計畫說很多事要做"},{"start":12759.69,"end":12764.894,"text":"發言委員,我們第一個就四大範疇裡面的各個計畫重點,我們最近已經草擬出來,然後它的經費分配會相當的平均,特別會折衷在"},{"start":12785.47,"end":12786.291,"text":"賴總統當時也說政府要講清楚解決什麼問題"},{"start":12812.725,"end":12813.065,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":12829.446,"end":12854.131,"text":"我們大概希望在一個日之內公布他的一個怎麼扣計劃哪個單位是可以扣計劃就開始要來接受大家的申請我們再來看醫院評鑑這是你現在的副手林次長講話2016年他講以下都是他講的話當年6千億的健保總和醫院佔了4千億許多醫院為了讓5月的評鑑成績好看"},{"start":12855.291,"end":12880.731,"text":"拿到較多的總額分配﹚下令醫護人員在評鑑期間要禁止休息、休假、禁休﹚他還說﹚如果評鑑真的在改善醫療品質﹚那請問篩報的急診﹚過來的醫護是在哪個平行世界﹚負責評鑑的醫策會﹚許多成員都是醫院的總董監事﹚醫院評鑑每期平時改善醫療品質﹚實則是藉由玩高裝檢﹚高設備﹚高裝檢設備﹚瓜分上千億的健保大餅﹚林靜怡還要求當時的衛福部長蔣秉煌﹚"},{"start":12882.452,"end":12891.109,"text":"立刻停止該年的評鑑。 院長,我要問的是院長。 院長你講,你講得夠不道理?他講得有沒有道理?那是你的政務官。"},{"start":12892.312,"end":12920.775,"text":"如果他是在立法委員任內看到這些問題表示他是有仔細在觀察也設身有這樣的體驗那他現在身為政務人員他應該有責任跟能力去面對這個問題解決這個問題不是換位置換腦袋啊不是換位置換腦袋只是去做啊右邊這張圖是護理師們穿的粉裝護理師們右邊寫這個標題寫平建前的暴風雨凝靜我們可以帶我們護理師在平建前要很忙很多作業要做到底平建有沒有某個程度的造假"},{"start":12921.736,"end":12928.853,"text":"我們認為議界心知肚明請問邱部長你覺得評鑑能夠改善醫療品質嗎?就這句話你覺得評鑑可以改善醫療品質嗎?"},{"start":12930.762,"end":12958.373,"text":"我覺得評審一定會改善醫療品質跟安全好那就暫停那就請你跟這個林氏好好溝通他認為塞鮑爾急診過了的醫護是在哪個世界啊如果評審真的可以改善醫療品質這也不過他自己講的啊但是評審有他一定的限制他就是打各個他的項目也是全國的相關的專家想領濟出來的項目評審委員考察委員也都是我們獨高望重的前輩已經很努力了"},{"start":12961.155,"end":12986.937,"text":"三立新聞也講了,反正醫師在這評鑑做很多不實的紀錄等等等,批院學生是陋習,所以我現在要求一個很重要,我要求醫策會在每回醫院評鑑的時候不能只公布分數跟榜單,我要求一份總評報告,這個總評報告對於整體醫療的分析跟影響,包括各級醫院發展的變化,民眾就醫行為的可能改變以及可能財務衝擊。 院長您覺得我這個要求合理嗎?醫院評鑑花那麼多資源,不能只有榜單跟名單。"},{"start":12987.517,"end":12987.797,"text":"最後我們時間到了"},{"start":13023.271,"end":13023.891,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員好,謝謝卓院長"},{"start":13033.639,"end":13048.299,"text":"發言會上午質詢到此為止,本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案,就不進行臨時提案之處理。 下午2時30分繼續開會,進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":21591.366,"end":21606.378,"text":"現在我們繼續開會我們在議場二樓旁聽的是新北市素仁家商的同學歡迎大家歡迎我們現在進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢我們首先請林益君委員質詢"},{"start":21643.388,"end":21643.808,"text":"林委員好"},{"start":21665.419,"end":21684.175,"text":"院長你親自身兼我們花蓮的0403地震的專案小組的召集人請問目前投入花蓮0403震災復原重建方案的重建經費大約是285.5億那是來自哪裡呢?我們當時從震災基金會以及其他的預算上面來挪資出來的"},{"start":21685.578,"end":21707.718,"text":"是從公務預算和特種基金和第二預備金對不對?好那再請問院長對於非屬公務預算項目可以支應的部分是由哪一個單位負責支應呢?非屬公務預算是不是由政災基金會負責?如果是政災基金會有一筆預算是在做一些補助救濟等等是有的"},{"start":21710.424,"end":21737.226,"text":"我再請教部長,部長,這張基金會是行政院在民國90年動用第二預備金成立的對吧?它是不是屬於衛福部轄下的公社財團法人,是嗎?是的,是。這張基金會的到底是誰可以管呢?誰可以監督和了解這個單位的上緩經費的使用情況呢?是不是衛福部?"},{"start":21738.672,"end":21747.271,"text":"當然衛福部要去去那個省省的來使用嘛那應該行政院在督導"},{"start":21748.782,"end":21769.122,"text":"那為什麼我們從04、03地震開始我們就不斷的在發文為了政災基金會的權責還有請相關部會提供一些資料但是大家都回文互踢皮球然後大家都說跟他們沒有關係都不是他們主管的我覺得這真的是太離譜了啦所以我想請教衛福部部長"},{"start":21769.983,"end":21798.357,"text":"政災基金會長期是以政績災民的主要的業務在莫拉克的風災還有高雄的美濃的地震還有八仙的城暴這些重大災害中都曾經協助災民所以今年我們主要的專案執行是針對0403的花蓮政災募款專案受到行政院的協調辦理專案的募款將全數是用在災民的災害援助還有緊急醫療收容安置"},{"start":21799.137,"end":21826.333,"text":"復原重建的四大項目是不是這樣?是的但是我們花蓮災民都在反映災情到現在已經半年了但是他們對所有相關的資訊都還是一無所知包括經費要到哪裡申請還有申請的資訊完全不清楚常常到處問到處陳情才知道還有重點是從花蓮發生04、03開始到現在已經半年了"},{"start":21826.873,"end":21848.628,"text":"結果正在基金會的官方的網站上面要查詢這整個募款專案的執行的捐款的使用的整個流向竟然什麼資訊都查不到甚至想要查這個基金會還有其他年度和重大的災害的募款執行的賬目細節裡面的資訊也不是非常的清楚也是不是很透明這樣是不是有點太離譜了嗎"},{"start":21850.009,"end":21861.136,"text":"而且衛福部身為政災基金會的主管機關那是不是太不負責任了難道是因為現在董事長是前部長是政務委員所以不敢管嗎是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":21862.95,"end":21879.611,"text":"委員我覺得我建議正在基金會後面用這幾個字來形容對在裡面工作的人實在是不當不宜了他們都很辛苦在做如果當中有一些或少數或多少個案目前在"},{"start":21880.231,"end":21892.565,"text":"整個政宅基金會或是整個我們這個重建辦公室執行過程當中有效率不及的地方請委員告訴我們,我們一一的來處理。 因為政宅基金會也是針對災害嘛。 但是政宅基金會這樣的對他們是我覺得"},{"start":21894.437,"end":21894.457,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":21912.446,"end":21924.315,"text":"而且針對這次04、03的地震重現的捐款,政災基金會到底有哪些補助的計畫、項目還有申請的程序,是不是全部要全部的透明的公開呢?"},{"start":21925.179,"end":21925.359,"text":"對,報告委員,0403的花蓮鎮災"},{"start":21948.517,"end":21968.197,"text":"正在收到的這個捐款募款大概有16億那目前這個將全數用在災民的救援那緊急醫療等等上面那不是誰說了算一定有一套的標準我們從各項的補助傷亡的補助等等都有一定的標準不是誰說了算這是一個制度上的問題"},{"start":21968.857,"end":21985.027,"text":"對,但是我們想要了解這個細節嘛,對不對?因為你們都還是不是讓很清楚的公開透明的讓大家知道人民的捐款用在什麼地方而且還有一點就是花蓮人需要救災需要救命政府不是說沒錢,不然就是經費不夠"},{"start":21986.568,"end":22001.729,"text":"本席有發現,我們知道政災就像剛才院長說的是非常的辛苦沒錯,但是為什麼一個單純的負責政災救災的基金會,主管的薪水可以爽領高薪,年薪超過幾百萬,而且是執行長他的月薪就超過10萬元了。"},{"start":22003.671,"end":22025.698,"text":"這樣就連現在進口的超市雞蛋﹐發生弊案的續產會﹐他們一級的單位主管平均月薪﹐也沒有超過10萬元以上啊﹐這對災民是多麼諷刺啊﹐那院長部長﹐你們對震災基金會竟然這樣大剌剌的﹐用政府﹐用大家捐款的上款﹐用災民的救命錢﹐用災難前在爽領高薪﹐這樣會公平嗎﹐這樣合理嗎﹐這樣的社會觀感會好嗎﹐"},{"start":22030.959,"end":22056.788,"text":"那不是養肥貓,怎麼樣才是養肥貓啊?這幾位你所說的執行長,他的敘心不是今天發生,也不是上個禮拜發生,長期以來他有一套的人事禁用的方式,也有一套敘心的標準,這個在政府裡面都有,所以他不是說特別養了哪一個人,你特別把他稱作肥貓,我是非常不願意用這樣的字眼來形容。"},{"start":22057.108,"end":22057.128,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":22076.994,"end":22106.063,"text":"尤其在這裡工作人員是不公平的因為我是覺得依照他領這樣的薪水但是他所做的事情我想院長也知道當時到花蓮去的時候我也說你們那網站上面根本任何一個資料都查不到嘛當然在我們的陸續的干涉監督之下你們也陸續的公佈了但是現在整個情況還是不夠的公開透明所以針對這個我想院長你是臨時理責花蓮地震的來清楚的向社會來公佈"},{"start":22108.223,"end":22121.768,"text":"制度應該公佈那補助給誰若干隱私的部分應該要保障如果這樣的情況底下應該要把資訊做必要程度的公開這個也是政財基金會本身獲自公信力的一個方式"},{"start":22122.991,"end":22148.438,"text":"人民捐的善款真的是需要直接全部專款專用而且要用在花蓮災民的身上是不是應該要明確公開給花蓮災民和全國捐款的民眾知道呢所以我覺得說這個可能是你們要回去再監督一下因為畢竟我剛才也講了嘛爽領高薪還是要做好自己的工作啊好謝謝希望委員都可以鼓勵該檢討的地方我們一定檢討"},{"start":22149.398,"end":22161.654,"text":"希望院長和部長務必要重新檢視勸募條件還有監管的機制,這樣以免避免大家愛心遭到不合理還有不法的濫用,這樣以後大家才能相信政府好不好?好的,謝謝"},{"start":22174.486,"end":22192.196,"text":"小小病自我要療的概念落實到大病到醫院小症狀到藥局的分級醫療概念在國外自我照護本來就是一個很廣泛而且非常正確的觀念了民眾在身體不舒服的時候只要到附近的社區藥局透過藥師的協助購買成藥還有指示用藥緩解症狀或評估是否就醫"},{"start":22197.119,"end":22215.88,"text":"其實這也是這幾年,隨著我們先進國家的推廣的國民健康政策,所以在保障用藥安全的前提下,推動自我照護的觀念對健保而言,更是減少醫療費用的支出,並節省了需要費時的就醫看診的社會成本。"},{"start":22216.32,"end":22242.381,"text":"其實這個是現在國際醫療的趨勢已經把自我要聊列為重要的衛生的政策所以我看了根據健保署的統計只要國人減少一次就醫的情況一年可以省下378億點大約可以為健保省下340億元那國人只要願意稍微改變一下觀念就可以為自身的健康"},{"start":22242.941,"end":22270.248,"text":"自己共同負責對於節省珍貴的健保支援也是有顯著的幫助那當國家在想辦法來拯救這個健保的時候通常有時候會用搶人民荷包的感覺漲健保費在拯救的整個健保但是自我造福我覺得是根本解決健保體質的解方之一所以我覺得我們應該學習先進國家推廣國民健康政策"},{"start":22270.808,"end":22274.902,"text":"提升自我照護的觀念那部長你同意嗎?嗯"},{"start":22277.606,"end":22303.181,"text":"報告委員我非常同意我們一定要推廣self care這種自我照顧這種風氣這也是世界的潮流那政府在這方面也一直努力在推展同時也協助在自我照顧當中總是要有資源當然有包括我們的不管是試癌篩檢、成人健檢還有很多社區的一個服務都是在自我照顧裡面幫助"},{"start":22305.282,"end":22324.16,"text":"我們民眾來給他self care 剛才部長講說那是我們政府要推動沒錯我查了一個資料10年前衛福部就已經發了一個新聞稿說103年的時候要強力推動自我要了結果10年了現在一點成果也沒有那部長我相信你上台之後"},{"start":22324.881,"end":22324.921,"text":"﹚主席﹚"},{"start":22354.821,"end":22358.783,"text":"復用事後避孕藥的時間是不是越快越好呢"},{"start":22379.258,"end":22383.14,"text":"對,剛剛講的指示用藥、處方用藥這個方向我想一直在溝通跟前進這個我想委員也應該很清楚那任何一個藥物的使用一定都要跟"},{"start":22401.852,"end":22402.192,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":22421,"end":22439.838,"text":"請問一下,如果緊急病醫藥現在還要到醫療院所去開,然後醫療院所又放假又休整,那無法拿藥,那民眾平日要下班時間還是額外的請假,那才能取到這個用藥,那對民眾來說其實是非常的不方便的,無法及時順利的解決民眾需要用藥急迫性的問題。"},{"start":22440.839,"end":22448.343,"text":"所以衛福部是不是要來檢討藥品轉類的問題呢?而且根據我了解指示藥品及成藥製藥小組就曾經開過這個會然後來討論過將緊急事後必用藥從醫生處方轉類為指示用藥但是根據本席了解這一個會議中有做成了會議結論"},{"start":22459.688,"end":22481.734,"text":"但是為什麼食藥署10月19號被問卻說跟媒體講說醫師團體等專家評估暫無共識呢那請問部長為什麼我們衛福部的政策擱到現在還沒有共識呢為什麼現在還沒共識啊還是早就有共識還是根本就是你們衛福部裡面的高層有人不同意呢拜託部長你身為醫生啊"},{"start":22482.294,"end":22500.079,"text":"一則人心拜託千萬不要讓女性生育的自主權被剝奪了政府現在都在營造友善的生育環境怎麼讓女性安心且自由選擇何時懷孕這應該是政府的重要責任可以盡快召開會議討論嗎"},{"start":22502.304,"end":22528.831,"text":"好,因為這個涉及的層面比較廣泛,社會各界意見也比較分歧,所以我們會趕快再持續來溝通。對啊,你先看一下嘛,現在先進國家幾乎都是變成指示用藥啦,而且他們將緊急事後冰藥,這種是沒有,就是已經是非常安全的藥品了。這早就要轉成指示用藥了嘛,怎麼還要到診所去開呢?診所都休息,這個又有"},{"start":22529.651,"end":22542.804,"text":"急迫性的我覺得這個齁應該是真的是要回去研議一下是的我們會趕快持續來溝通部長你可以一個月內開會討論嗎請衛福部務必要給本席一個正面的答案我們盡快討論盡快開會討論"},{"start":22545.748,"end":22546.289,"text":"因為現在醫藥分業還是在藕斷絲綠"},{"start":22578.251,"end":22601.587,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝林益君委員的質詢 謝謝主任長及相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝現在我們在二樓是遠從彰化縣方苑鄉來我們立法院參觀新寶國民小學的同學歡迎啊我們國家未來的主人翁加油接下來我們請登記第5號羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":22613.186,"end":22620.91,"text":"好,謝謝院長。有請左院長。麻煩再請左院長備選。邱部長,謝謝。麻煩請衛福部長備選。陸委員好。院長好。"},{"start":22629.329,"end":22648.942,"text":"院長 勞動部說月薪3.1萬屬於低薪 全國約有120萬的勞工 針對低薪 院長這週要開會討論我今天手邊就有些資料 可以跟院長就教一下另外我要先補充 有41.9萬的人失業 8月的失業率已經提升到3.48"},{"start":22650.263,"end":22671.002,"text":"十一個月新高而且是連續三個月。 青年失業已經大於平均中高年的失業率是五倍。 這一點我要跟大家來討論一件事情。 今天我要提供一個資料來讓全國的青年來知道如何搶救低薪48000的工作只要辦這張。"},{"start":22673.697,"end":22692.576,"text":"找工作辦民進黨黨政,辦這張就有辦法找到4萬8的工作。 院長,針對食藥署人事案,你說倘若任用的資格不符標準,絕對是違法,以及如果跟首長有近親關係,絕對要避免,你有沒有說過?"},{"start":22692.576,"end":22692.757,"text":"是的。"},{"start":22693.757,"end":22720.739,"text":"請問一下這一個回覆是你要給全民的回覆嗎?衛福部給我的回函跟院長上週五給本席回答的根本是做的一套做的又不一套兩者啊我看到真的讓我覺得你們到底有沒有內部溝通啊你跟賴清德黨主席一樣是不是都是講一套做一套衛福部承認誠信祭司來自藥廠"},{"start":22722.523,"end":22737.913,"text":"更表示只要不處理二等輕的業務內容藥證就沒有關係你不覺得太扯嗎?已經證實他就是藥廠的孩子現在告訴我不處理二等輕就沒關係請問一下他來自藥廠"},{"start":22739.07,"end":22768.332,"text":"他的爸爸如果有藥廠的關係其他的朋友是藥廠有藥證的需求跟他爸爸請託他的孩子在藥廠藥證裡面就處理這樣的業務他會不會有協助?第二對於沒有這個藥廠的孩子在食藥署裡面的這些藥廠公平嗎?所以你給我的回函說只要這個孩子他不處理二等輕以內的業務就沒有關係是這樣嗎?你的標準有這麼低?"},{"start":22769.059,"end":22779.485,"text":"發言委員我想我們有您的來訓的隨行的時候我們有完全去了解到你提的這幾個部長回答我這是不是你的回函"},{"start":22781.584,"end":22806.125,"text":"你可以認同只要不處理二等親他藥廠的孩子就可以在裡面處理藥證嗎?因為你提的這一位其實在大概103年的以前就在工作我現在就抓出問題你認同嗎?當時他進來的時候不好意思時間有限我只問你認同嗎?不是在掌管這樣的業務啦院長你可以認同嗎?"},{"start":22809.005,"end":22836.311,"text":"回答不出來不是沒有掌管他主來我再聽第2個案例第5個案例你聽聽看因為部長所說的他在任用的時候他並沒有這樣的身份但是他現在是不是應該避嫌對對對民進黨現在在主以淪陷都不用避嫌嗎我認為部長要去了解一下他現在就在這個位置上面對整個業務的推動是不是會讓人家有不必要的想像就是有不必要的想像嗎如果是這樣的話他的爸爸是江蘇藥廠"},{"start":22837.891,"end":22866.092,"text":"江蘇藥廠的主要負責人之一還是國內的廠商之一來,第二個更扯林興副審查員他的學經歷完全不符合資格院長你知道這件事嗎?徵才資格裡面寫得清清楚楚要醫學、藥學相關的背景碩士學位你們任用給我的回函寫什麼?因為他有20年的國會經驗可以代替"},{"start":22867.436,"end":22886.057,"text":"這就是認證了我當時所說的你們任用的是所謂的綠色委員的助理來當副審查員到現在你還給我亂扯20年的國會經驗可以抵過所謂的碩士學位醫學背景我現在告訴你"},{"start":22886.718,"end":22907.406,"text":"只要有任何人只要他在醫院從事行政、書務甚至是20年以上的打掃經驗是不是就能夠跟醫學相關背景的這些年輕人來找同一份工作你會不會覺得你的回答太扯這就是因為民進黨黨政給了他這個四萬八的工作嗎"},{"start":22909.191,"end":22937.588,"text":"抱歉這個是黨政無關那你回答我為什麼20年的國會經驗可以在你的徵才資格沒有寫最後所謂的綠燈大開直接讓他任用好 報告委員這位是我有去問一下任用的署他們當成張彩的時候當然是要選擇最適當的那這位後來這位因為他滿有經驗因為這位就是想要跟"},{"start":22940.851,"end":22958.849,"text":"你講話真的很心虛啊 部長你為了一個民進黨的助理講話越來越扯 我覺得你有人事壓力 既然已經調查完畢 本席來看院長你有沒有跟本席手上掌握的資料是一致的 第一個 請問一下 民進黨立委關說這個案子有沒有問過李明新主秘 有沒有問過"},{"start":22960.731,"end":22967.899,"text":"院長部長有沒有問過回答我有就沒有不好意思請問那個有立委官說這個人事案有沒有問過"},{"start":22969.397,"end":22996.828,"text":"我完全不知道,因為那個你說李明欣這案的那個已經在103年之前的,是106年前。 李姓副審查員是在今年6月24號所開出的人事任用徵才資格,是在你上任之後,你還在跟我扯103年。對對對,那你說的副審查員那一位那個是的確是。關切這個人事案的是不是劉姓跟陳姓立委?我完全不知道有任何委員"},{"start":22998.168,"end":23003.031,"text":"臨時副審查員在面試的時候有一位非公職身份的人呆在現場督導這一場面試那個人是誰?知不知道?"},{"start":23019.276,"end":23044.458,"text":"因為他的資料越來越多,你再不承認。在他工作的那個署,那就有那一邊接,我這一邊沒有接。 也不知道。完全不知道。院長,第三個最後一個問題,回答我。七科組組長許昭凱,面試完以後都資格不符。為什麼現在有人更改了這個許組長的批示?"},{"start":23047.165,"end":23067.274,"text":"回答我,為什麼在面試官已經批示資格不符,現在去更改了這個批示?就是有這個現象,我告訴你,資格不符已經很明確,你現在還給我回函說20年的國會經驗可以頂替一切。"},{"start":23068.305,"end":23078.753,"text":"你對得起全國人民?你對得起全國青年嗎?失業率越來越高,青年求職不易,我們要的是一個公平公正公開的一個,有這麼難嗎?院長、部長回我回答我,你要再壓血無聲了,全國百姓都在看。"},{"start":23089.175,"end":23115.527,"text":"本須要延續的很簡單社會的弱勢沒有良好背景家庭的孩子在求職上能夠有一個公平不要輸在起跑點告訴全國百姓青年認真讀書也有機會逃避但是今年認真讀書符合相關徵才資格就因為忘記辦理黨證他輸在了起跑點變成這一場求職的陪讀合理嗎"},{"start":23119.5,"end":23123.045,"text":"院長,你已經鴉雀無聲很久了,回答我好不好?"},{"start":23124.065,"end":23150.971,"text":"上次委員有垂詢到這樣的議題當時我是說請衛福部是不是在一個禮拜你要給你給你答覆他給你的答覆如果成為你手中所說的是這樣的內容那與事實是否有出入或是相符我要請部長再重新調查重新瞭解那這個調查我們會持續追蹤後續相關的事務不僅要答覆給委員也要讓我清楚"},{"start":23151.431,"end":23177.703,"text":"另外我要請問輸出役的問題 上次我有提到三、五 院長7月9號到現在已經100多天了 有將近215萬袋的輸出役已經進入到各個醫療機構 我想問你生理食鹽水非屬必要藥品 所以就醫藥事法第55條 藥物樣品正品管理第二條第7款所稱的 申請公共安全公共衛生重大災害使用者"},{"start":23178.223,"end":23180.224,"text":"公共安全、公共衛生、重大災害"},{"start":23200.421,"end":23227.01,"text":"無從選擇啊都是相同的重要的事情啊都是相同重要我要跟院長說啊這個其實就是答不出來不好意思三者全無啊我們要看到到底為什麼三者全無公共安全重大災害都不對啊公共衛生是指申請預防整治如寄生蟲感染傳染性疾病等公共衛生需要請問這有傳染病嗎"},{"start":23227.89,"end":23253.561,"text":"公共安全、公共衛生怎麼可能是公共衛生呢?輸出疫在臺灣有傳染性的疾病嗎?重大災害是什麼災害?委員給這三個選項設定前提那當然會有輕重緩急之分如果沒有設定前提當然是重要的我給你最新的報告食藥署給我的答案這三個都不是是類推適用三者都不成立啊所以呢他們成立了一個新的說法"},{"start":23254.321,"end":23270.625,"text":"叫做類推適用,你們換了一個更扯的說法,原本依據藥事法第55條,現在類推適用是藥事法第27-2,必要藥品的短缺通報等登錄及專案核准製造輸入的一個辦法來做一個辦理。"},{"start":23271.185,"end":23287.635,"text":"來做一個依據。 院長藥品只有分必要藥品跟非必要藥品,但你們自創了一個法律用語,臨床上具急迫必要性,所以類推適用藥事法27條之二。 院長什麼是類推適用?部長答覆一下,你們的答覆是什麼內容?"},{"start":23289.613,"end":23303.089,"text":"我首先跟委員報告,那個適用是法性,其實在相關的法令裡面,我們也經過相關法律的人士是沒有問題的。來,你們7月9日我質詢完,7月10日開記者會,要打我的臉。"},{"start":23306.954,"end":23332.992,"text":"告訴大家是用前面三個公共安全、公共衛生或者是動大災害。好,現在私底下給我回函。食藥署並沒有官方的宣布並沒有發新聞稿跟社會大眾來報告,只有回復本席。全台灣只有食藥署跟我知道。是怕被大眾質疑你們現在改用了類推適用嗎?院長,類推適用只是適用於法律的漏洞。"},{"start":23334.153,"end":23358.392,"text":"存在的時候,院長我想問你,請問藥師法有漏洞嗎?是在哪一條?55條?27條之2?還是39條?部長你可以救他。好,呃,發言委員,我們是用一條60,應該是62條。你又在胡扯,你又在胡扯!"},{"start":23359.602,"end":23387.79,"text":"你根本都在胡扯嘛!藥事法竟然將藥品分為必要藥品跟非必要藥品其中在衛福部明令公告的必要藥品當中清單裡面內的必要藥品就是在無法繼續製造輸入或不足供應的時候才可以現在其製造或輸入才可以排除第39條的一個限制適用藥事法規定27條之二第三項我們現在衛福部所訂定的一個辦法之一"},{"start":23388.527,"end":23404.053,"text":"而非必要藥品則不容許例外。 不容許例外你們7月10號的記者會食藥署告訴大家生理食鹽水非必要之藥品不容許例外阿"},{"start":23405.39,"end":23432.491,"text":"所以非屬必要藥品的清單生理食鹽水當然更不容許例外的產生我們的法就有明確有意的去做區分了各自來排除用來保障人民的安全當然非法律漏洞的時候自不得類推適用現在哪裡有漏洞所以我要送給院長三個扯無法源依據扯改類推適用扯不挺本土廠扯"},{"start":23434.232,"end":23456.488,"text":"你們那一天還跟我講更扯的是什麼沒有藥害基金的賠償使用生理食鹽水如果產生生命安全之疑慮要做什麼消保法來求償你以為今天用生理食鹽水是在逛百貨公司喔有沒有基點有沒有滿千送百消保法"},{"start":23458.315,"end":23458.976,"text":"講這什麼話?"},{"start":23458.976,"end":23475.314,"text":"院長你能夠同意用生理食鹽水產生問題嚴重影響到人民、國人安全的時候用消防法嗎?是的 這個生理食鹽水是特定的需求的時候才會使用當然跟一般的消費是不一樣的那基於健康的這個要求我覺得"},{"start":23476.448,"end":23501.939,"text":"有一定程度的要求他的安全是絕對必要的。藥害基金確定不賠,食藥署確定說要用消保法,太扯了。最後剩1分鐘我要告訴你,不挺本土廠。我們去查過台灣大總製藥、越南大總製藥、日本大總製藥,為什麼你們不給台灣大總製藥來處理?第一,你們給予的健保支付的相對應根本不夠價格。"},{"start":23503.544,"end":23505.705,"text":"我記者會再繼續跟你追"},{"start":23555.495,"end":23571.464,"text":"好好 謝謝羅廷偉委員質詢 謝謝卓院長、相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":23576.974,"end":23600.321,"text":"跟議會報告,現在在我們二樓議場旁聽貴賓席是美國國會助理訪問團,參加我們議會訪問團,歡迎大家。接下來登記第6號範圍委員,這質詢已書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。在接下來我們請登記第7位李燕秀委員質詢。"},{"start":23607.423,"end":23607.943,"text":"主席李文豪議員"},{"start":23633.103,"end":23651.221,"text":"院長你從民意代表出身,你非常知道工會對於我們業務的推動,在職災在各方面其實都協助我們很多,但是歷經了很多年,其實包括我們的基本工資跟電價的調整,還有包括消費者物價指數每一年都在調整增加,所以我在這邊我要跟"},{"start":23652.402,"end":23665.778,"text":"委員長再次爭取,就是說有關於我們行政補助費對於各項工會的補助,未來是不是有機會再調整,甚至有機會我們聯動物價的有機會我們重新每一次視我們財務狀況進行檢討。"},{"start":23668.407,"end":23689.116,"text":"我了解勞動部有在做這樣的研議,那可能在往後的年度。我知道是後年,因為我推動了好多年,我知道部長有承諾各公會說是後年,但是如果今年財政狀況許可,我們在省預算或多或少追加減預備金,多多少少補助一些,我們可不可以放在討論研議的範圍之內?"},{"start":23691.954,"end":23696.696,"text":"第二個問題,小子女化的問題,每一個孩子都是寶,我們不僅要鼓勵父母多生,生出來的部分值如何照顧得更好,是重點。"},{"start":23718.106,"end":23735.315,"text":"院長我有幾個數據我們現在嬰兒的死亡率創14年新高然後包括新生兒的死亡率今年是15年的新高我們就要去探究問題是為什麼這當然有不同的問題包括我們現在女性的平均生育年齡是32.44歲就大家早晚結婚還是生的晚"},{"start":23740.237,"end":23756.133,"text":"三個婦女裡面生小孩第一胎生小孩三個裡面有一個是超過35歲也就是高齡產婦每一位高齡產婦其實就增加早產的風險那所以我要再一次爭取院長我不知道你知不知道這個數據就是說"},{"start":23757.614,"end":23776.414,"text":"早產兒新生兒6個月所需的平均花費高達11.4萬元, 遠高於逐月的每一個胎兒, 逐月生產38週生產,前6個月大概只需要2.8萬元, 所以很多早產兒的婦女還有早產兒基金會,"},{"start":23777.475,"end":23805.752,"text":"前一陣子不斷的到立法院來做跟各黨派做溝通所以我希望在少子女化我們整個項目就是說不只我們怎麼建幼兒園或者是其他的層面我希望對於非藥物的早產兒的營養品用品我們是不是可以討論放在少子女化的那個整個政策基金裡面去思考這一塊去照顧早產兒的這個相關的一些營養品跟用品部長"},{"start":23806.992,"end":23826.641,"text":"委員的考量出發點絕對是正確的那實務上現在怎麼來做包括他的花費啦以及現在我們這一塊到底可以說過去從來沒有納入過但是這一塊我們可不可以放在討論的政策裡面研議包括去補助他們家庭的早產兒家庭的定額照貨津貼"},{"start":23829.162,"end":23830.042,"text":"有關這一塊我們還特別來研議"},{"start":23859.208,"end":23883.877,"text":"足月額跟不足月額前6個月照顧金被差至少5倍以上。我最後一個問題,包括現在早產兒的鐵的添加物現在全球是缺貨,這個問題什麼時候可以解決?部長,院長可能不知道,你要知道啊,現在早產兒的母乳添加劑現在全球缺貨,那現在缺貨的問題什麼時候可以給答案?"},{"start":23885.455,"end":23910.048,"text":"早產而需要模擬添加劑,現在這個部分缺貨。 國際因素缺貨,怎麼樣去調度這些,因為現在是缺貨的狀況,我提醒你。我再來了解國內的狀況,其實我們在缺藥相關的一個平台是功能非常的好,如果有任何的反應。 現在還是沒有,所以我現在告訴你現在沒有,趕快去調度處理,三天之後告訴我。"},{"start":23911.208,"end":23935.888,"text":"最後一個問題,院長我長期在關注你周遭朋友一定很多人得過胚狀性皰疹,上個會期我已經問過了,但是沒有給我具體的答案。我覺得這件事情,我知道財政的狀況有限,但是這個是很多高風險族群,三高也好,我們試財務經費來去做補助,我一直在爭取,現在有一些縣市對於"},{"start":23936.949,"end":23961.789,"text":"高危險群有可能得帶狀性炮子毀裝的高危險群他們有一些補助有一些縣市因為財務狀況不好並沒有做所以我一直希望中央我們就是中央帶頭來補助這件事情至於是不是三高或者是低收入戶或者是低三高又是低收入戶我們再來做我們可以分階段來做但是如果政府在第一時間釋出一些善意至少照顧到"},{"start":23963.23,"end":23983.107,"text":"經濟上有困難但是又是高危險群如果經費許可我們可以來試試看但是如果連到底什麼樣的狀況需要多少的經費你們連那個表都沒做出來我們怎麼去做進一步的討論評估所以院長我們可不可以趕快做這件事情好謝謝委員現在在很多公費疫苗的施打方面是還沒有把"},{"start":23983.968,"end":23984.409,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":24003.902,"end":24004.882,"text":"接下來我要問幾個問題這是今天中午出來熱騰騰的民調我要請教院長"},{"start":24030.707,"end":24050.654,"text":"在TVBS今天下午有一份民調出來討論到總統就這個國慶的演說之後的民調有百分之將近49的民眾滿意賴總統的演說但是也有百分之41的民眾不支持國慶的演說賴總統是強調要團結臺灣但是從民調看起來是兩極化院長你認為問題點在哪裡部長你可以請回"},{"start":24058.749,"end":24072.269,"text":"如果看這樣的民調我現在我最有興趣的需要去看看那21%跟20%到底不滿意的重點在哪裡希望能夠找出來為什麼大家不滿意"},{"start":24073.131,"end":24073.551,"text":"另外在兩岸關係上的表現"},{"start":24090.838,"end":24114.196,"text":"只有39%滿意,有47%對於賴總統的兩岸關係是不滿意的,比在就職演說那天的演說其實又掉了兩個百分點,也就是說有越來越多的群眾對於賴總統處理的兩岸關係是不滿意的,這是我第一個問題。 第二個問題,我聽到羅文嘉副董事長說要跟對岸談二六共識,"},{"start":24116.306,"end":24134.866,"text":"請問院長,26共識,你的26共識,你心目中的26共識是什麼?26是馬祖的一個地點。對,我知道,但是你的26共識內容是什麼?不要九二共識,26共識尊重…形式上是剛剛那樣講的,那我覺得他講這話的意思是認為說,"},{"start":24136.087,"end":24165.333,"text":"九二共識那個我們認為不存在的共識 那沒關係那二六共識內容是什麼沒關係你覺得不存在的 那你的二六共識是什麼 九二共識那個不存在的即使他認為有共識的人那也是二三十年之前的問題現在兩岸國際有新的局勢跟新的發展應該要有新的機會讓新的領導人跟新的兩岸事務的關係能夠來討論 現在已經是新的領導人就是新的領導人但是大家對於賴總統兩岸關係是越來越不滿意所以院長你覺得根本的問題在哪裡"},{"start":24166.431,"end":24180.639,"text":"兩岸關係,我想總統一直堅持臺灣的主權跟國家的安全,這一點應該沒有人反對,但是他認為中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬,這個是有人反對啊?反對的理由倒是很奇怪。"},{"start":24185.842,"end":24202.838,"text":"因為不滿意的人越來越多,從這個數據上,從TVBS,不是我李燕秀的數據,是TVBS數據出來,越來越多人不滿意。就是說,我想要知道,院長你覺得根本的問題在哪裡,那如何解決?羅文嘉提出來的二六共識,你覺得有沒有能力解決這個問題?"},{"start":24204.099,"end":24214.723,"text":"雖然我手上現在沒有數據,但是我很有把握的請委員多看幾家的民調數據,再來綜合,光看一家難免偏失。好,我尊重。最後一個問題就是賴總統在國慶提到的祖國論,賴總統強調說"},{"start":24222.465,"end":24238.029,"text":"那天他談的祖國論有57%的民眾支持但是你們非常熟悉的顧寬敏的夫人王美秀女士說她請問賴總統這個國家的歷史是從什麼時候開始也就是深綠獨派的很多人還是對於賴總統對於國家的歷史是從什麼時候開始是有意見的所以我要請問院長就是說你們如何去處理這個深綠獨派的反彈"},{"start":24249.372,"end":24274.409,"text":"身為中華民國臺灣的總統 取得就是國家跟人民的最大公約數難免會有人對他的當時的講話 會有不同的意見所以不需要去理他不是不需要去理他把他當宿交就繼續往前走我們繼續做這樣的論述 那麼去跟其他不同意見或是還沒有接受的國人能夠做更多的說明 比方你剛剛第一題我就希望我能找出"},{"start":24275.503,"end":24276.784,"text":"謝謝,我們也真的非常期待。"},{"start":24298.077,"end":24301.539,"text":"財源財源確實是在這一次預算審查當中的重中之重。 這一次我們看到勞保基金在114年編了1400"},{"start":24320.728,"end":24343.661,"text":"一千三百億,雖然說勞保撥補和部長說就是改革,但是對你來說他也不見得是反正撥補就是撥補,總而言之勞保基金我們撥了一千三百億,那另外在我們的台電的部分,今年編了一千億,那明年又要給一千億,所以就是持續的送上大紅包,這兩個政策無論對於台電的撥補,對於勞保基金的撥補,"},{"start":24347.023,"end":24360.278,"text":"其實金額都不算小對不對算多嘛部長點頭嘛對不對這個事情呢聽到在邱部長的耳朵裡面我們的健保今年只撥336億哇"},{"start":24365.816,"end":24379.588,"text":"那是健保、財務健全的那一部分,健保我們還有很多,還有整個加起來是500多億,甚至再加上公務預算一路等於110億,數字更大。336億健全財務的部分。 今年你編列336億的預算,要去撥補健保,但是實質的健保的內容,院長你看我後面的表就知道了,"},{"start":24391.598,"end":24415.952,"text":"三百三十六億當中有一部分一百一十億本來就是政府依法要補足編列百分之三十六政府應該負擔百分之三十六比例的健保經費三百三十六億是這樣子然後有一百一十億是吃健保豆腐然後另外一百三十四億是原來欠健保另外十億是菸捐所以你們現在只是把錢再撥還給菸捐所以我覺得我為什麼是這樣講"},{"start":24419.654,"end":24435.548,"text":"因為看到台電可以撥補一千億,看到勞保可以撥補一千三百億,在健保的部分,在很多醫界的眼中,大家就會覺得說,那台電不能倒,那難道健保就能倒嗎?那另外,"},{"start":24436.249,"end":24465.464,"text":"我要提到賴總統在今年成立的三大委員會當中他說他要替國家發展擬定戰略和民間的一些對話跟目標這三大委員會也會成為我們世界的解方替國家擬定戰略政策這三大目標當中有一個就是健康台灣所以在我看來健康台灣一手舉著健康台灣在另一隻手就是踐踏我們的健保對很多醫界來說臺電不能倒"},{"start":24466.044,"end":24487.852,"text":"但是健保就是要持續吃我的豆腐,那特別是我現在最後一分鐘。 委員今年的健保費用已經高達9200多億了。 9200多億。 今年就是336億,所以賴總統說今年不要再談點子,要看價值,但是在我看來賴總統的價值就是持續的這樣一一借作功德。"},{"start":24489.279,"end":24508.369,"text":"持續的叫醫界做功德,叫護理人員做功德,在我眼睛看起來就是這樣子。所以報告之前有撥補240億,當時賴清德還沒選之前,撥補240億放在健保的準備金裡面,直接撥到健保基金,從準備金撥到基金,所以我要請問院長,"},{"start":24509.77,"end":24511.291,"text":"委員推論嚴重的錯誤,我們會給你順序的數字再向您報告。"},{"start":24531.014,"end":24546.646,"text":"謝謝李嫣秀文質詢。謝謝卓院長相關部會所長的備詢。接下來登記第8號洪森漢委員之質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。再接下來登記第9號,請王世堅委員質詢。"},{"start":24564.754,"end":24592.793,"text":"謝謝院長。我請行政院卓院長。麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。黃委員好。卓院長,又見面了。我今天第二段的質詢是要跟你談一些,那麼雖然比較細微,但是其實是"},{"start":24594.008,"end":24621.516,"text":"更重要的所以我們今天就很和緩的來討論我想我們幾十年來我們台灣最大的一個特點也是我們國家的一個優點就是我們國家的醫療品質跟這個服務價格那如果我簡單用四個字形容"},{"start":24622.574,"end":24648.273,"text":"我們臺灣的醫療品質跟價格相比叫做價廉物美那這價廉物美其實是長期以來建立在我們國家醫護人員他們有很多權益的犧牲尤其是跟先進的國家相比"},{"start":24649.008,"end":24649.308,"text":"所以就提到"},{"start":24677.441,"end":24704.934,"text":"我們每位委員都會提到這個點值啦那點值當然該是多少我們國家再來細算這當然是沒問題可是這個點值的部分我覺得基層醫療的點值最重要因為基層醫療相較於其他的醫學中心、區域醫院、地區醫院而言"},{"start":24706.038,"end":24714.931,"text":"他們的平均的成本都比較高甚至成本都遠高於醫學中心"},{"start":24716.012,"end":24738.611,"text":"我舉例,比方說基層醫療診所,第一點他們有任何業外收入,他不像大型醫院有業外收入,地下室可以停車,有停車場,有那麼多空間為了要造福病患跟病患家屬,所以他們可以出租,做美食中心,做賣醫療器具的場所等等等等。"},{"start":24739.878,"end":24766.372,"text":"那這些業外收入很多那大型醫院尤其醫學中心採購的藥量體那麼大他們的折扣相對也比較大第三個比方說他們一些基本的成本護理人員的成本藥師的成本他們相對平均下來會比較低那基層醫療診所這些負擔都非常非常的重"},{"start":24767.288,"end":24794.168,"text":"結果我看了一下我們這個基層醫療診所的點子竟然竟然連這幾年連0.9都不到0.9都不到當然所以醫界現在尤其是基層醫療診所他們是頗有怨言當然吐了怨言以後他們事後也都會吞下來可是可是"},{"start":24796.232,"end":24808.104,"text":"長期以往這是非常不公平的一位醫生從他學生學生的過程他要高於其他各"},{"start":24809.582,"end":24809.602,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":24837.659,"end":24850.108,"text":"故然不是在你們手上去放行的可是過去歷屆幾位院長竟然放任這些醫學中心、大型醫院他們到基層去"},{"start":24851.437,"end":24870.458,"text":"假藉著這個醫學中心的名號那去設置診所去設置大量的基層診所你看到處在臺北市到處看的時候那一棵大樹之下那個符號之下欸它是個診所夠膽他去開設分院我們還沒話講"},{"start":24872.04,"end":24892.04,"text":"分院他要買土地蓋房舍,要購買檢驗機具等等,成本他也不花,他為什麼設診所?除了成本低以外,對他們而言他們就像把牛肉湯撐水一樣,他要來分食基層醫療的點子。"},{"start":24895.902,"end":24914.903,"text":"院長我希望在你任內這些通通不要再放行了 不要再任由這些大型 尤其是財團醫院在各縣市在各地方去廣設基層診所 因為這是非常不公平的 他們就是要來瓜分基層醫療的點子"},{"start":24919.297,"end":24944.278,"text":"這個會造成時時在做基層醫療的醫師們那非常非常大的痛苦傷心所以這一點能不能做到因為照說你都會區本來就不該你要設那你應該到偏鄉偏鄉醫療的地方去設不是這樣嗎結果台北市核准的通通是這些大型大型的財團醫院"},{"start":24946.753,"end":24962.488,"text":"這一點是不是院長你可以承諾這一個部分要做檢討好不好好謝謝委員用了相當長的時間闡述基層醫療在台灣現在整個醫療體系上他的弱勢我個人認為不只基層醫療連地區醫院進行上都是困難的"},{"start":24963.476,"end":24992.102,"text":"那過去我在議會在立法院的時代我接觸最多的就是基層醫療協會現在也是如此我深深知道他們的需求他們所面臨的困境那麼台如果是以都會區來講又是一個治療醫療資源比較充沛的地方更不應該更不應該這樣去做來自醫界們你看他那個他們那個心聲多痛苦我就舉罕病就好罕病我們全國有兩萬一千八百位"},{"start":24994.143,"end":25008.524,"text":"每年需要將近百億,今年預估要超過一百,大概一百零八億需要的耗費,但是這也完全符合我們全體國人共同要救治他們的心願。"},{"start":25009.705,"end":25034.939,"text":"結果在1屆的聲音你看他就是要求政府說要不然把罕病這一塊從健保這個拿出來不要加入點子單獨來計算那大家很沉痛的心情才會這麼講那我是認為千萬不要碰罕病這個部分這個部分本來我們全體國人都願意也很樂意這個部分應該"},{"start":25038.624,"end":25042.111,"text":"今年我們罕病用藥還給他加了一些經費預算希望能夠加到20億"},{"start":25044.771,"end":25045.592,"text":"韓病有加?"},{"start":25045.592,"end":25066.493,"text":"有,有加,韓病用藥,有加20億。 包括我們除了健保完全的加進去以外,行政院這一個部分,公益證都20億。我們洗腎有9萬7千人啦,那現在歐美日國家他們有進步,有進步的醫療啦,那可以再加洗腎,再加洗腎又可以免掉患者他們周遮勞頓。"},{"start":25068.154,"end":25090.962,"text":"那又可以讓他們洗腎時間長一點減少這個逆滲透的身體不舒服那麼這些非常這個重要結果光這個我們一屆提案來給我們那個健保這邊審專家會議都通過了現在在等所謂共同擬定會議一等"},{"start":25093.403,"end":25120.885,"text":"要是也不知何年何日才要通過 我覺得這個部分 院長是不是你交代部長這個部分查查看到底怎麼回事好不好公會那邊跟部裡面應該現在還在保持接觸當中我最近才得到這個訊息接觸了幾年了還在接觸我說就明年的明年這個計算的這個內容還在接觸當中希望說在你的手上在你的任內這個部分就能夠通過"},{"start":25121.991,"end":25128.941,"text":"我請部長趕快去計算清楚跟他們就業務上來詳細的規劃一下那麼我們也很樂意來看到就是說這個身心障礙權益保護法"},{"start":25136.386,"end":25163.241,"text":"說實在話這17年沒修了在你的手上總算這有修了但是這個修啊我整個法把它看過以後我發現我們對於自立生活身障者他們自立生活的部分還是沒有任何的著墨沒有任何的提升啦那麼身心障礙者這個所有的長照大概我們現在平均算在一天給他們大概連"},{"start":25166.709,"end":25190.298,"text":"連長照連智力生活照護每天不得超過6個小時的這一部分的補助啦但是這個部分啦那個剛剛講到這個效應以後那個院長這個部分我特別要針對長照師講的話我今天要質詢的部分齁我等了他三個禮拜啦資料都還沒來"},{"start":25191.431,"end":25206.125,"text":"我問他說,這個輔具啊,我們對生長者的輔具,生長者的輔具有科技輔具、一般輔具,那真正生長者在使用,他必須兩者並用。"},{"start":25208.527,"end":25234.73,"text":"但是長期以來我們對身障者的補助在這一個部分通通做掉身障者說你只能擇醫我一再的問那為什麼要擇醫同樣一個費用你讓他買兩種輔具或者有哪幾種科技輔具哪些一般輔具你有沒有這相關的資料因為"},{"start":25235.831,"end":25254.838,"text":"生長者真的跟家屬去買啦,到時候來申報,又不過,這個也不能過,那個也不能過,所以我就要常教師說,你答覆我為什麼不能兩者共用,兩者都買。"},{"start":25255.828,"end":25273.477,"text":"只要在你總額總金額內啊不是嗎然後我要他答覆我說申請那麼困難那你乾脆告訴我們有哪些輔具哪些廠牌可用等了三個禮拜他連甩都不甩啦天啊我們在立法院問"},{"start":25275.336,"end":25293.911,"text":"他都這種態度啦那他是如何面對現在身障者包括需要長照的老年獨居老人者他們來接洽會是多麼的困難所以也因為這樣我特別要求就是說是不是"},{"start":25294.946,"end":25321.176,"text":"我們針對需要長照的以及身障者我們應該開政府應該研究一個統一窗口我舉個例齁為什麼他們的需求需要統一窗口來面對比方說我如果是個身障者我今天要去學校就學我接洽的必須跟教育部教育部再跟地方教育局聯絡那來幫助我"},{"start":25322.725,"end":25345.838,"text":"好了 我要去工作 我要就業 需要勞動部 勞動部在支援地方的勞工局所以到底我的需求就這一些啊 那我需要長照的部分 當然那就來啦就社家署 就是我們衛福部社家署 我們一個身障者一天"},{"start":25347.062,"end":25373.01,"text":"要做的就學就業長照那需要跟這麼多不同單位洽詢洽詢通過他們的核准以後再去找機構來派人力天吶我覺得這樣子這樣子的程序過於冗長那麼對於真正需要幫助的比方說獨居老人比方說身障者"},{"start":25373.567,"end":25402.186,"text":"完全毫無便利可言所以是不是院長應該下命令下去研究我們是不是統籌一個統單一窗口跟需要的身障者還有老人朋友們那麼跟他們做一個接洽才對委員剛剛所說的狀況我深覺得是不合理也不應該啦請回覆應該立刻從制度上馬上去"},{"start":25403.783,"end":25411.876,"text":"定定一套方式一般國人都應該簡正辨明何況是對身障者我們更應該有這個方向去走"},{"start":25412.438,"end":25433.456,"text":"我們現在的照顧制度很多,但如果落實這個才重要。 馬上提出一個方式,馬上去執行。 乾脆我們就訂一個額度,一個金額裡面,那它多少要用在長照,多少它是要用在自立生活,還有自立生活我們至少,院長,至少從最基本的喘息服務,"},{"start":25434.36,"end":25437.302,"text":"委員您提的這些不是未來長照3.0非常重要的重點我們會去推"},{"start":25458.186,"end":25486.687,"text":"那個部長剛好你提啦你手下的這個健保署長照師社家署社家署服務態度精神最好啦健保署齁是還OK啦最糟糕的就這個長照師我希望你回去丟根粉筆叫他在那裡面罰債好不好我們會改善謝謝我們來檢討謝謝王世堅委員的質詢令人感動謝謝左院長、各部會市長謝謝"},{"start":25489.54,"end":25503.524,"text":"接下來我們登記第10號、第11號盧憲宜委員、邱若驊委員之諮詢。 均以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄刊登公報。 再接下來請登記第12號葉元智委員諮詢。"},{"start":25524.949,"end":25534.684,"text":"委員長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":25546.686,"end":25560.697,"text":"院長好,想跟院長先報告一件事情,我不知道院長你了不了解,現在我們很多病人在急診室,如果他在急診室需要治療之後,需要住院的話,在急診室的時間越來越長了,你有注意到這個現象嗎?"},{"start":25561.8,"end":25562.12,"text":"三、10月18日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":25578.735,"end":25604.129,"text":"有的在急診沒有床位,急診的病患是就地治療,還有的是他在輪椅上面電擊,急診室塞爆,沒有心跳才被發現。其實這個是不只是對醫療品質是很大的傷害,而且我覺得對病人也非常不尊重。但這個問題之前我們也反映給衛福部很多次,完全都沒有得到任何的改善。我先舉幾個數據給你看,第一個,"},{"start":25606.65,"end":25616.844,"text":"先講一個我們現在在國旅大概平均我們平均國旅大概是一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天可是你知道我們現在在急診"},{"start":25618.643,"end":25622.548,"text":"在113年的上半年就已經有19213位他在急診室待48小時以上我這個數字只有48小時的可能還有72小時的"},{"start":25639.295,"end":25654.303,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、"},{"start":25660.088,"end":25678.319,"text":"有一些醫院,特別是臺大醫院,臺大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%,五分之一啊。新北土城醫院也是20%,也是五分之一。這個狀況這麼嚴重,那難道是因為病人變多,沒有病床嗎?並不是。"},{"start":25679.139,"end":25697.732,"text":"並不是,實際上是有病床,但是沒辦法開,我們再來看一個數據,叫做這個叫佔床率,佔床率就是指說,他的醫院當初許可這麼多床,可是實際上他實際開的床是多少,你可以看,比如說有些比較低的,像國泰只有56.42,還有一些是60幾%的,"},{"start":25701.474,"end":25727.606,"text":"我沒有全部把它列出來啦齁但是實際上佔床率大概要7成多才算正常那我不知道院長你知不知道這個狀況他有床喔但是沒有開然後所以很多人就擠在急診室沒有辦法上去病床然後就會出現我們剛剛講的急診室非常多人的狀況院長你知道這個情況嗎應該是人力不足造成人力不足那確實是人力不足啊"},{"start":25728.611,"end":25736.334,"text":"對,我有看到,那人力不足怎麼辦,因為這個院長,沒有用啊,現在就是沒有解決啊,因為這事已經發生好幾個月,然後狀況越來越嚴重,我在未還委員會我也質詢過啊,當時希望,"},{"start":25747.299,"end":25749.179,"text":"是的,我如果談護理人力的話,我們非常可以說是"},{"start":25776.508,"end":25797.42,"text":"行政院用12個策略來努力...部長你那個12個策略如果有用的話這個情況不會越來越嚴重如果我們比較一頁的話我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3095個五位的護理師在一頁增加了1513...這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題啦我覺得問題是存在拿數字出來但是問題還是存在就沒有辦法解決沒有面對問題嘛"},{"start":25805.584,"end":25821.19,"text":"那現在護理師確實他們也有很多他們的所謂的抱怨嘛,譬如說他們覺得薪資不夠,然後還有就是比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床宿的配置,這個是護理師他們所提出來的。"},{"start":25821.73,"end":25837.039,"text":"那我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題啦就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛你現在一點大概本來應該要1.1元但是實際上現在可能是一點只有0.6元所以可以看得出來"},{"start":25838.781,"end":25840.824,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、"},{"start":25853.542,"end":25879.917,"text":"遵守立法院的主決議1點0.95元很多人講說你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話都在幫護士講話確實我們幫醫生講話幫護士講話因為他們非常辛苦更重要的是我們在幫病人講話我們整體來說是要提升醫療品質不是說在不是在幫哪一個族群講話所以光是健保點子這個沒有編到一點0.95元我覺得真的行政院真的有點對不起所有這麼多的民眾"},{"start":25881.198,"end":25904.296,"text":"部長一直講說我們推出了多少對策多少方案可是實際上他就是沒有解決問題啊所以是不是可以針對這個問題真的認真的去了解到底怎麼把人力補足否則為什麼就是沒有護理師然後護理師現在職業率非常低護理師職業率有時候都不到六成欸就是我們有那麼多護理師但他們不願意在醫院上班到底問題是發生在哪裡"},{"start":25907.022,"end":25919.816,"text":"我想這個護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的意思我們一個一個會多努力來解決那至於急診的用賽這個部分可能跟醫療體系也有關係比如說你去問台大醫院的院長他絕對說他"},{"start":25921.458,"end":25922.519,"text":"現在不是在精神喊話,我們一起來努力,現在問題就在這邊。"},{"start":25945.552,"end":25945.672,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":25973.288,"end":25992.96,"text":"報告委員,我們去年就今年第1屆第2屆其實平均臨時在醫院或在那個大概都有到0.9,所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。 第二個就是其實在明年的健保這個部分,其實行政院也給我們最大的,有史以來最高的成長力,以及"},{"start":25994.404,"end":26014.974,"text":"所以到達5.5所以這個部分就已經到達9200億以上這是破有史以來最高的已經非常盡力所以可見1.0.9都不夠啦一定要到1.1元啦但是因為行政院不願意嘛所以主決議是0.95這不是願不願意我們既要維持點值"},{"start":26016.341,"end":26041.838,"text":"並行總額那總額跟點子這樣算起來如果1.1元的話那總額制度就完全破壞掉了我不是認為說不應該我們會願意朝1.1元去前進去邁進但是這個總額制度的保障我們還要設計跟精細的設計因為這個點數的問題其實上個會議大家都寫上過了其實三長都簽字了那時候衛福部有派代表那現在又講另外一套我尊重了好不好那謝謝部長"},{"start":26043.615,"end":26067.412,"text":"那下一個問題我想問一下因為今天環境部也在問一個近鄰的問題因為我今天有媒體有報導就是外國媒體有專訪院長院長有提到說為了滿足AI的產業的發展所以對採用新的能源技術非常開放然後第二點是說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話"},{"start":26068.112,"end":26092.045,"text":"以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障那院長覺得採用這個新能源所謂的新核能你是願意接受的嗎應該是這樣有沒有誤解你的意思新的核能技術請問一下什麼叫新核能技術就是說跟傳統現在我們的舊的核能電廠的技術是截然不同的我早上有幾個例子燃油車跟氣電跟電動車比如說什麼"},{"start":26095.114,"end":26124.577,"text":"我早上舉個例子,燃油車跟電動車就完全不同的新技術。未來新的技術的進步,現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中。哪一個開發當中,它未來的商業模式...你那有講跟沒講一樣啊。新的就是相對於舊的,我當然知道啊。但是因為你說新的能源技術,因為你是院長嘛,所以你講的話一定就有前瞻性,你有研究過嘛。請問一下什麼是新核能技術?"},{"start":26125.732,"end":26132.332,"text":"比方說2030年之後可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的那個所謂快中指"},{"start":26132.734,"end":26156.501,"text":"有可能成功,可能成功,我們現在還不知道,有可能成功,有可能成為一個商業模式,成本這整個過程我們都可以的話,我們當然願意去開放討論,甚至用一種新的方式來運用。那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別?我講沒講有講跟沒講,你有什麼意義?第二個,你說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識,"},{"start":26157.581,"end":26174.296,"text":"還有處理核廢料我覺得你講這句話感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天你知道嗎或是你是局外人我們講過很多次了這個是一個先決的條件因為你是行政院長按照憲法規定您是最高行政首長"},{"start":26175.057,"end":26202.483,"text":"河廢料的問題是你要解決的問題欸河能安全問題是你要解決的問題你怎麼可能說在接受媒體訪問的時候欸只要河能安全可以解決或河廢料可以解決我就採用河廢料好像這個事不關己你在台北新北市你知道河廢料的處理新北市政府也要協助嗎有啊所以他現在乾式儲存槽已經蓋已經放了嘛但是院長你知不知道為什麼他當時乾式儲存槽不太願意放你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":26205.608,"end":26215.693,"text":"是因為新北市非常害怕到時候臺電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式儲存槽裡面所以我現在問你一個問題因為當時臺電包括經濟部有訂定一個核廢料的永久儲存的期程"},{"start":26227.407,"end":26241.025,"text":"這個表格也幫你找到了在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定就是說我們要找一個永久儲存場所以以新北市的立場來講只要你找到永久的儲存場"},{"start":26241.806,"end":26262.154,"text":"不管是在哪裡啦,你只要認真去找嘛,就像我們現在經濟部長不在,但是他很多想法嘛,電不夠可以到菲律賓把電運回來,也許核廢料也可以往各種方式去處理,但現在的問題是我們的方案定在那邊,2018到2028要完成,但是現在沒有任何的進展。"},{"start":26263.234,"end":26280.813,"text":"包括我上次在委員會的時候我問相關的部會 還沒有社會共識不是沒有社會共識是因為他沒有在動作如果有一天說選擇在新北市大家也不會同意啊社會共識因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖嘛讓大家非常恐懼嘛"},{"start":26281.614,"end":26282.775,"text":"我們對核能要有專業的了解及知識。"},{"start":26298.089,"end":26323.087,"text":"目前以我們的對話來講 報告委員 核能本身是沒有罪過的 但是我們不要把它認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹 以來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了但是你在缺電的時候 核電就是一個非常穩定而且成本很低的供電方式啊 所以這才會 這個議題還會一直被討論嘛後端的處理又是大家非常的嫌弊 我只要提醒院長啦 就是院長你有責任去處理核廢料"},{"start":26323.467,"end":26330.31,"text":"第三個因為院長你那時候在那個好像前兩天吧我不知道你是肚子餓了還是剛吃完飯你就在臉書發文就用那個點菜來比喻總預算那後面還有講到說如果這個餐廳他如果覺得我是一個奧客的話就把我趕出去"},{"start":26353.419,"end":26368.273,"text":"就被人家解讀成倒閣那早上的時候也有委員問你倒閣啦你好像是說倒閣是不得已的方法我只要問一個問題倒閣是內閣制國家的一個制度對吧我們有不信任投票那你知不知道倒閣是為了解決什麼問題"},{"start":26369.444,"end":26389.01,"text":"為了解決將局對不對,將局嘛,然後為什麼要倒閣,因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛,現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算,行政院認為不能依法編列預算,有幾個,沒有依照禁法補償條例嘛,沒有依照主決議嘛,你們就不想這樣做,沒有依照預算法91條,"},{"start":26394.252,"end":26420.484,"text":"然後呢,現在呢兩邊有爭議,那我們讓民眾來決定,所以解散國會,大家重選,選出來藍白的立委,不只是6層,8層,然後院長結束了,解決問題了嗎?沒有,因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長,比如說提名陳時中當行政院長,陳時中繼續不依法編列預算,那我想請問一下,倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局?"},{"start":26421.715,"end":26424.117,"text":"我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情"},{"start":26461.772,"end":26480.5,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。接下來,我們第13號何新淳委員之質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄刊登公報。再接下來請登記第14號徐欣怡委員質詢。"},{"start":26495.301,"end":26508.797,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選徐委員好 院長好"},{"start":26510.618,"end":26528.569,"text":"本席今天想要為我們國家的主人翁孩子們、家長還有老人家來請命首先有非常有趣的一個數據我們台灣曾經是全球生育率最高"},{"start":26529.81,"end":26546.463,"text":"但是在去年不知道院長是否知道去年降到歷史新低我們是全球生育率最低那總生育率呢去年降到0.865人也就是一位婦女"},{"start":26548.342,"end":26564.53,"text":"這個升0.865位。那今年是龍年,照理說,我想院長應該知道,過去50年,包含我跟我弟弟,我們那時候出生的年代,過去50年只要碰到龍年,"},{"start":26566.651,"end":26583.415,"text":"龍子龍女的人口是暴增的。 今年龍年到今年前7個月,我們的全台出生人數是74,298人,比去年兔年同期還少了2,621人。"},{"start":26586.027,"end":26608.707,"text":"所以這個關鍵就在養小孩的成本太高了所以我們國人辛苦不敢生所以今天本席要替家長來請命在請命之前我們也發現到在陳水扁總統執政的那8年我們台灣的年出生的人口從30.5萬大跌到19.8萬"},{"start":26614.5,"end":26620.564,"text":"在馬英九總統執政的那8年 這個我們年出生的人口數從19.8萬回升到破20 20.8萬"},{"start":26627.546,"end":26645.676,"text":"我們蔡英文總統執政的8年再從20.8萬大跌到13.5萬所以首先本席想請教這個卓院長賴清德總統的這4年有想要搶救出生率嗎有或沒有就好請檢答"},{"start":26647.426,"end":26660.793,"text":"有,但是相當的困難。有,很好。那本席在這邊獻策。首先想請問院長,您覺得養一個小孩子,從出生到他22歲大學畢業成年,"},{"start":26663.956,"end":26692.59,"text":"正常養我所謂的正常養就是你可以這個去做月子中心也可以送托嬰中心或保母托嬰給小孩子補習然後正常的公立學校不一定要念私立那一路念上來當然大學看他考得上私立或公立這樣子您就出生到22歲您覺得要準備的生養育基金平均大概要多少錢"},{"start":26694.963,"end":26708.512,"text":"我如果大膽的說一個數字,我覺得要一千萬。您的一千萬算是養得比較好。以平均來說,大概是624萬到800萬。800萬是納入通膨,一千萬以上的是養得比較好的。"},{"start":26718.769,"end":26728.244,"text":"那接著呢在這個yes123求職網的調查他發現我們平均預估就是一個家庭的總收入"},{"start":26730.2,"end":26751.211,"text":"總的月收入就一個月的收入呢,你如果要養一個小孩,我家庭的總收入大概要11.1萬,可是呢現在的每個月平均的經常性薪資一個人是4.6萬,所以如果父母雙薪家庭這樣子大概平均是9.2,"},{"start":26754.244,"end":26772.125,"text":"所以我們這樣看到就算是雙薪家庭他也有半數以上達不到11.1萬所以以上本席講了這麼多包含衛福部自己做的全國兒童生活狀況調查"},{"start":26773.882,"end":26801.874,"text":"就發現假設我家裡有一個0到6歲兒童的家庭我們的家庭大概有一半以上大概就一半50%可以達到收支平衡那有兩成以上是家庭入不敷出所以綜合以上所述我們如果想要鼓勵我們國人生育現在有很多年輕人他是"},{"start":26803.055,"end":26807.397,"text":"一半以上他都覺得這個收支沒辦法平衡將近一半這個是衛福部自己做的那我一定確定入不敷出就有兩成所以"},{"start":26829.209,"end":26854.804,"text":"在這個衛福部也在最近有一個調查就是家長到底希望政府幫助什麼就是要提高育兒津貼還有提高兒童的醫療補助因為小孩子容易生病就怕生病要花費很大再來就是增設公立或公設民營的托育機構或幼兒園"},{"start":26855.845,"end":26856.005,"text":"主席"},{"start":26886.185,"end":26901.512,"text":"公立、準公托、公用、還有非營利以及準公用都能夠讓他們一律免費。 那私立的我們來補助他最少一萬元。 院長可以嗎?"},{"start":26902.919,"end":26922.564,"text":"報告委員 就委員剛剛所說的雙薪家庭或是在台北市他沒有辦法很輕易的撫養一個小孩所以我們現在用的是不是只有台北市喔 我覺得任何縣市雙薪家庭 台北市狀況比較更嚴重啦沒有沒有其實我們這個各地都很嚴重所以現在政府用的是比較多的社會投資家庭支持"},{"start":26922.824,"end":26923.224,"text":"對,我知道,我知道。"},{"start":26943.813,"end":26969.874,"text":"本席所提的因為我們知道賴總統上任您擔任院長我們這個有再增加一些但是那些不足以鼓勵他們生育所以本席在這邊就是請命我們公立準公立還有這個非營利這個所有的公幼公托希望可以免費私立的補助一萬元以上"},{"start":26970.675,"end":26974.458,"text":"我們希望院長你好好思考,接著接著,我剩下一半的時間。"},{"start":26987.785,"end":27013.965,"text":"國家的財政能力我們會想辦法來讓國家更發展。接著接著我們就是一直出生率一直低嘛所以院長您知道嗎明年我們臺灣就進入了超高齡的社會所以超高齡社會就是每五個人裡面就有一位是65歲以上的老人也就65歲以上的人口佔了20%以上那所以呢本席在這裡先"},{"start":27015.98,"end":27043.209,"text":"這個特別的針對這個超高齡社會我相信院長跟部長都認同您會老我也會老大家都會老所以我們應該要超前部署所以我們現在長照3.0有很多要好好的來落實這個在後面剩下的時間本席會特別提但是在提之前本席還要特別提常見法我們過去是長照法"},{"start":27044.089,"end":27069.966,"text":"長健法就是長期健康的照顧法,而不是每個人人老了都要倒下來受人照顧,還有長壽健康照顧法,就是所謂長健法的精神。請問院長,您如果年紀大了以後,您最希望的是什麼?您去想一個老人家年紀大了,他最希望什麼?能夠自己治理自己的生活,不要影響"},{"start":27076.943,"end":27088.955,"text":"對,所以他希望他身心健康,而且他活得有品質,可以自理,有尊嚴,不會說我失智失能要人家照顧,這個是可以預防剩餘治療的。"},{"start":27089.736,"end":27102.643,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二"},{"start":27106.465,"end":27130.263,"text":"臺灣大概您也知道我們2022年國人的不健康餘命是7.41年也就是說臥病在床到走要臥7年可是人家丹麥7天那我們就要想辦法怎麼樣讓他們活得健康這一塊我們希望我們行政院可以超前部署來做有關長照3.0的部分"},{"start":27132.866,"end":27151.397,"text":"長照3.0我們現在正在實施但是也碰到了諸多的問題首先第一個我們長照的發展基金我們看到114年的預算明年一年大概就會差短120.8億"},{"start":27155.004,"end":27173.868,"text":"我們現在長照基金大概剩下1406億所以我們可以預見10年之內長照基金大概就會破產了所以針對這一塊我們中央政府有沒有什麼對策 有沒有"},{"start":27174.909,"end":27182.244,"text":"我們現在要擴張到長照3.0我們必須要找新的裁員讓他更充裕新的裁員是什麼?有考慮長照保險法嗎?"},{"start":27186.153,"end":27212.338,"text":"世界各國有很多國家有在用實行之後的成效不見得完全都是滿分的也有在調整的我剛剛有委員提到我們也曾經答覆過現在世界各國先進的做法我們都可以來參考學習但是要符合我們的國情跟國人的需要我們在長沙3.0從家庭社區到機構到醫療到社福整套是做起來"},{"start":27213.308,"end":27215.729,"text":"長照保險法應該也可以考慮,只是看怎麼實施的比較好吧?"},{"start":27234.179,"end":27244.694,"text":"有在考慮這個草案嗎?行政院?我們有收集國外的經驗來做比較。那目前還在研擬階段。這個可能部長會更清楚現在的進度吧?"},{"start":27245.982,"end":27246.002,"text":"當然﹖"},{"start":27271.089,"end":27280.862,"text":"人力的問題有一個就是世界各國先進國家做得非常好的叫做時間銀行這點我不知道院長有聽過嗎?"},{"start":27282.776,"end":27303.271,"text":"我可以把自己的時間先去做一個服務存起來。 存起來未來對所以這一塊我們中央政府現在有開始在部署著手進行嗎因為這個由政府來做會更好不然的話現在就本席知道有些民間某個縣市做但是很有可能他這個"},{"start":27306.237,"end":27332.708,"text":"比如說他80歲以前,他剛好都住在南部,可是他80歲以後,兒子、媳婦叫他到台北跟他住,他就來台北。如果只有南部有在實施,他這個時間銀行的存摺裡面也有時間。但是如果不是全國性都有在適用的話,那他到了北部他可能就不能用。所以這個中央政府能不能超前部署來進行。"},{"start":27334.076,"end":27334.196,"text":"是的﹖"},{"start":27355.875,"end":27381.272,"text":"我們希望我們能夠看到政府早點來做,因為這個從規劃到執行也需要一些時間。那接著,有關長照3.0在地方有製造中心,有喘息服務,還有關懷據點。本席在這裡要特別為偏鄉地區來請面。很多偏鄉地區人力不足,那我們給的這個共餐費用遠遠不足。"},{"start":27381.952,"end":27397.013,"text":"好譬如現在營養午餐平均一餐都有50塊可是如果我們這個偏鄉地區他老人有100人可是那個費用沒有彈性也不能專案補助他們的一個人的共餐費用降到18.6"},{"start":27398.935,"end":27409.523,"text":"這個真的是非常非常對不合理所以本席希望能夠有針對偏鄉來專案補助特別是我們也發現在我們衛福部的4916個關懷據點中"},{"start":27430.439,"end":27430.88,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":28070.083,"end":28071.264,"text":"謝謝主席。有請衛福部邱太元部長。麻煩請衛福部備詢。"},{"start":28104.727,"end":28117.523,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們社會救助法準備要來修法可是衛福部的這個版本被公民團體打了不及格的這個分數也就是說"},{"start":28119.182,"end":28136.63,"text":"這跟民間的期待其實有很大的落差。 現在這個社救盟甚至是用9個沒有來抨擊衛福部的草案。 拿9個沒有,例如第一個虛擬收入沒有廢除。"},{"start":28137.33,"end":28156.299,"text":"第二、家戶合計沒有放寬。 第三、就業支持沒有變化。 第四、貧窮陷阱沒有解除。 再來還有新住民家庭沒有被重視等等。 民團甚至是形容衛福部的草案版本充滿了這個舊價值。"},{"start":28158.34,"end":28176.914,"text":"那因為時間的關係本席只針對新住民的部分跟部長來做一個討論我們來看看這釋救法是如何對一些需要救助的新住民造成了哪一些困擾跟困境那針對這個救助法它裡面"},{"start":28180.296,"end":28198.148,"text":"有要求,民眾申請低收或是中低收入戶資格的時候,計算財力人口的範圍除了申請人之外,包含配偶跟申請人一親等之直系血親,這個含當的就是說父母親。"},{"start":28199.389,"end":28225.948,"text":"也就是說父母親要含在這個財力人口的這個計算範圍那本席在2020年上任之後呢陸陸續續接獲我們新著名朋友陳晴表示在申請低收獲中低收入戶的時候他們會被地方政府的承辦要求必須要提供原國籍父母雙親的戶籍及稅籍資料財稅資料"},{"start":28228.45,"end":28254.17,"text":"那當然我們有知道說絕大部分新住民的雙親其實是居住在外國要跨海取得這些資料其實是非常的困難跟繁瑣而且每一年都要來做申請那當然過去從2011年開始其實內政部就開始有韓式那之後衛福部其實也都有陸陸續續做了韓式也就是說"},{"start":28255.612,"end":28278.892,"text":"請承辦人員依據《社會救助法》第5條第3項第9款,也就是我們所謂的539條款,如果因其他情形、特殊未履行撫養義務至申請人生活現隱困境,然後請地方的主管機關仿視評估與申請人最佳利益作為"},{"start":28279.693,"end":28296.171,"text":"考量認定已不列入因計算人口為宜可是很可惜的是就像是含釋了這麼多次每一次這些新住民在申請低收費中低收的這個資格的時候呢都會被地方的承辦你設計法第5條第1項"},{"start":28298.752,"end":28318.893,"text":"第二款異親等職業血親一定要他們到國外去申請他們父母親的這個財稅資料才有辦法替他們辦理請問部長這個要怎麼處理呢地方的這個解釋自我解釋常常讓這個新住民求助我們請問部長這要怎麼來處理"},{"start":28320.831,"end":28348.238,"text":"好 謝謝委員 那我們講社會救治法他修正我現在修法的重點是以經濟安全脫貧自利及社會投資為核心當然我們要擴大照顧弱勢那所以剛剛所以現在目前本來已經在行政院這邊做討論後來發現有很多需要在討論的所以就回到部會來做討論那我想"},{"start":28349.545,"end":28375.905,"text":"這幾...其中有幾個重點在人極合一這個部分也會做更多的處理。我相信...在人極合一這部分會最多...最多...更多的處理。所以...所以那個...所以那個...所以那個...所以那個... 也就是說外國部也認為說自己的版本其實是不好的對不對?你原先提出來的這個其實是有問題的對不對?那沒關係...沒關係我們...那個...委員所提的齁...我想我們現在在研...在研修當中我們會把這樣的困難來解決。"},{"start":28377.069,"end":28399.118,"text":"對,因為說實在的為什麼這次的版本會讓民團如此的不以為然,其實說真的很多需要照顧的,需要解套的,其實在這次的設救法裡面我們都沒有看到。那除了新住民剛剛我們所提到就是說要申請國外父母親的這個財稅資料之外呢,那還有要注意一點就是說未入籍新住民。"},{"start":28399.838,"end":28424.253,"text":"像這個未入籍的新住民如果他是沒有小孩子的這個監護權他是連這個資格都沒有他連申請的資格都沒有只能夠尋求新住民發展基金的資源的這個協助那如果有小孩子有監護權的話呢就是依照這個社救法第5條第2項向地方政府申請特殊情形個案判定"},{"start":28425.013,"end":28425.413,"text":"我想我們一定會來解決這個問題"},{"start":28444.921,"end":28469.409,"text":"會解決這個問題, 連同這個未入籍的新住民的這個部分, 我們會明確的把它來入法嘛, 因為我們發現說有很多法條可能就是字義不清楚, 所以到了地方的時候呢, 承辦永遠都是以自己的意思來做解讀, 所以在第一線的時候, 這些人就被打掉了, 這需要協助的這些新住民, 弱勢的新住民, 他們就被打掉了。"},{"start":28469.969,"end":28492.543,"text":"所以這個部分的話韓市在韓市十幾年來一再的韓市還是沒有辦法解決,我想部長如果是說這部分已經討論很久了,我就在上一屆的時候就不斷的跟衛福部在討論這個問題,可是呢一直都沒有辦法解決,好不容易現在我們社會救助法要來大修,那是不是也把新住民的這些部分都考量進去呢?部長能夠做到承諾嗎?"},{"start":28495.185,"end":28521.691,"text":"我想如果社會救助法所規定的對象,我們一定要給他最周全、最安全、最方便、最便利的一個...市長你這樣子的講法非常的空洞,我是想說就跟著新住民的這部分我們要如何協助?其實很多需要救助的新住民都排除在我們的法律之外...如果不符合條件,我們一定克服所有的困難去解決嘛,那如果必要需要在法律上有所..."},{"start":28523.206,"end":28528.051,"text":"所以本期今天跟你提的這些你們都會在這個未來的話因為這個法案這個草案其實大家都這麼的認為說不及格"},{"start":28542.605,"end":28542.645,"text":"會加入討論"},{"start":28566.049,"end":28593.605,"text":"各位討論,那像我們新的這個設計法其實大家都希望說有一個新的修正後的版本出來請問我們有時間表嗎?這個會期會有新的版本出來嗎?有很多亮點,我想我們一定有很多亮點,就是說未來會有很多的亮點嗎?是這樣子嗎?對,包括怎麼樣脫貧當然剛剛提到的這個部分的一個只要是對象裡面我們一定"},{"start":28594.74,"end":28621.19,"text":"讓他很順暢的得到補助,而且不要造成不方便另外在新的社會救助法的過享裡面也有那種就是有緩衝期,比如說我們3加1你可以去工作,你在工作的時候不會把你的補助取消等4年以後,等你讓他存有一桶金"},{"start":28622.17,"end":28637.035,"text":"副長,我們期待,好不好?主要是本席剛才提的問題,我希望說在這次的設計法的修法當中能夠得到解決。那再來還有,希望就是說剛才本席所提的能夠明確入法。再來呢,本席要跟你討論的就是有關這個"},{"start":28638.475,"end":28638.735,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":28657.58,"end":28679.02,"text":"可是另外有30萬人呢他是持這個短期跟長期居留呢目前這個新住民有30萬也就是說這30萬人是還沒有入籍的那這30萬的這新住民之所以沒有入我國的國籍除了有個人的意願那也有入籍的年限未到甚至還有"},{"start":28679.62,"end":28679.72,"text":"主席"},{"start":28710.101,"end":28726.979,"text":"臺灣人的配偶,臺灣小孩的爸爸或者是媽媽,他們在臺灣生活、工作、繳稅,履行國民的這個義務,可是他們跟臺灣人一樣,他們會年老,然後會失智、會失能,"},{"start":28727.7,"end":28728.04,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":28754.804,"end":28755.885,"text":"三十萬如果已經取得中華民國國籍大概"},{"start":28782.202,"end":28793.968,"text":"就是不分族群我們一定提供長照服務嘛。 是,現在針對的是另外30萬未入籍的部分。 另外30萬只要他在臺灣基礎,我想我們政府一定給他"},{"start":28795.231,"end":28800.953,"text":"有各種方式或利用其他的法律來給他最好的一個法保障嗎?"},{"start":28800.953,"end":28821.72,"text":"其他的法律是怎樣的法律呢?因為這部分易議部長您讓很多新住民其實看到了曙光也讓民團肯定那當然是個一個多月不能只是嘴巴說說而已喔這個還要去做規劃的到底這30萬未涉及的新住民我們有沒有要規劃讓他們就是列入這個長照服務當中請問部長"},{"start":28823.26,"end":28847.032,"text":"我想要列入這個長照的體系可能比較知識體大但是他應該享有的醫療關懷者或者是類似就長照這樣的服務我們用醫療大概是沒有問題因為我們有健保可是長照的部分呢長照的部分當初您也說這個部分我們會會會會會盡速研議先跟委員報告現在的進度"},{"start":28848.322,"end":28871.033,"text":"那部長給你一個建議今年我們剛修完了人才專法第21條之一也就是讓年長為臺灣付出與取得永居的外國人才也能享有身心障礙及長照的服務人才專法今年修了那更何況是本席剛剛所提到的這些長年在"},{"start":28871.693,"end":28873.854,"text":"我們來演繹所以之後有再認真考慮嗎?"},{"start":28896.318,"end":28906.489,"text":"我想基於我們政府照顧所有的人民的一個立場,不管他的國籍,我相信這個都是應該要去考量。"},{"start":28911.073,"end":28911.433,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":28940.843,"end":28967.633,"text":"暫最大宗。 可是在上個星期就有報導指出, 因為疫情的關係, 股災、升息或是打房等等政策, 房地合一稅已經連續走跌, 房市下半年開始交易持續是量縮的, 所以本席擔心長照基金的財源收入是否未來將會出現這個缺口, 尤其是前陣子家庭照顧者,"},{"start":28968.913,"end":28980.158,"text":"總會也提出了警告,2028年長照基金即將要來耗盡,請問部長對未來長照基金這部分呢,我們這裁員,開拓其他的裁員有沒有進一步的規劃?"},{"start":28981.647,"end":28998.538,"text":"我們要如何來增加這個財源,更何況我們未來可能會把這30萬位涉及的新住民也要納入長照的這個照顧當中,我們要如何維持長照基金的運作呢?報告委員,剛剛今天行打的時候,我們院長有指示,我們會尋求財源。"},{"start":29000.499,"end":29003.703,"text":"所以你們會有 行政部門會有信心就是說長照基金會持續維持"},{"start":29033.178,"end":29060.911,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員的質詢,謝謝衛福部邱部長的備詢。接下來請登記第16號,劉建國委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請院長還有邱部長。麻煩請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":29072.461,"end":29095.228,"text":"劉委員好。 院長好。 院長辛苦。 院長跟部長請看這一個報導。 長照杯葛、兵戶、士、士之戶改判12年。 那我想剛剛羅委員特別提到,臺灣已經要進到2025的超高齡這個樣社會。 那進到超高齡社會的最大的一個挑戰,我是從施政的這個角度去看齊。 所以像這個報導,會不會越來越加劇?"},{"start":29095.228,"end":29096.588,"text":"然後情況會不會越來越複雜?"},{"start":29102.452,"end":29118.079,"text":"為什麼?因為曾經邱部長跟我當同事的時候,我一直在強調,一個家庭一人失智,全家喪志。那個是很煎熬的,從要去到底是不是失智症,要確診之前,其實就有一段很難理解的過程。"},{"start":29121.516,"end":29149.018,"text":"到了他的花瓶的初期到中期到末期坦白講那個整個照顧階段是完全不一樣的一個樣態所以我才會特別從施政角度要來跟院長跟部長做討論那部長再看下面這個資料我們之前這一個臺灣施政協會在2022年推估2026年65歲以上的施政人口會來到36萬那我們衛務部今年已經推估65歲的施政人口已經達到35萬了"},{"start":29150.819,"end":29165.744,"text":"然後同時臺灣施政協會在2022年推估施政總人口數2026年是37萬但今年的推估臺灣施政總人口數就已經來到37萬也就是說提早到兩年了"},{"start":29167.049,"end":29185.036,"text":"兩年就到來了,這代表臺灣施政的人口數急劇的在上升當中。然後這個部分我對照一個資料可能要給院長跟部長能夠理解說,這個事情如果我們不加以去做處理的話,可能要付出的社會成本跟代價會更多。"},{"start":29186.222,"end":29212.033,"text":"國際施政協會我是在10多年前就跟他們這個執行長那是一個法國人特別到立院來來拜會當時的未婉那時候我當召委然後他們這個相當有權威就在9月21號公布2024全球施政報告其中對臺灣部分參與調查臺灣照顧者對於社區中有足夠的施施者支持的服務認同比例"},{"start":29212.679,"end":29237.734,"text":"才4乘8,不到一半,然後同時一般民眾認同率才有3乘2,很低啦,這是坦白講是不及格的。然後這些數據如果根據施政防治照護政策綱領暨行動方案的2.0,也就是2018到2025的這個執行上,又出現了非常嚴重問題,尤其在去年112年,在院長跟部長都還沒有到任之前,我們是併了70億,結果僅執行42億,執行率6乘1。"},{"start":29242.765,"end":29268.061,"text":"那其實這七項裡面可以看到有一項編的特別多,執行特別糟糕請院長跟部長特別關注,因為我的時間有限自己編的,竟然執行率糟糕到這種程度是不是因為這個樣子才能讓這個國際的施政協會在整個調查報告中顯示這樣的數據出來所以我是希望只要這個"},{"start":29269.574,"end":29297.979,"text":"政府對這個施政的預防及照顧沒有做好,真的會讓臺灣付出更大的這樣的一個成本,甚至於照顧的人力跟經費都會持續的一直在往上增加,這個我們一定要因應,所以我在這邊要具體的拜託,為什麼要特別跟院長拜託,施政的3.0,這個行動方案3.0要提早,一定要提早,我相信長照3.0我們總統就已經喊出來了,"},{"start":29298.919,"end":29328.472,"text":"那施政的照顧現在2.0執行率是這個狀態所以我們應該立即盤整2.0相關的缺失改正然後3.0要即刻上路所以這邊是不是可以具體建議部長可以折承要求因為他這個當時是跨部會的一個行動方案所以是不是請院長跟部長能不能在這一周內訂出這個要嚴厲的3.0的這個工作期程然後盡快的"},{"start":29328.922,"end":29355.572,"text":"用缺塊數讓3.0版本可以上路。跟委員報告我想剛剛您那個數字我也非常的震驚只有32的滿意那是不是我們還有機會因為這是今年的預算在執行趕快來看看今年預算在執行過程當中到底出了哪些問題不要在明年重複這樣的問題我想這個檢討必須要先做那至於新的3.0方案衛部是不是手上已經有在研立或是我們盡快來處理"},{"start":29356.537,"end":29379.097,"text":"現在總統都一直在講長照3.0嘛那其實上長照3.0是至今還沒有正式要上路喔未來對未來一定要上路嘛對不對但是總統已經在很多公開場合講到長照3.0坦白講我覺得總統是在在擔心啦那甚至也要待快一點嘛所以有時候有時候一個階段一個階段但是我們的應變速度要更快嘛所以這個3.0是不是請院長"},{"start":29379.757,"end":29385.763,"text":"長照3.0我們是有積極在研究那現在手上的是不是最後的定案可能還要有一點時間但是如果這個草案的構想能夠先給委員參考也請委員指教這個是可以的"},{"start":29399.315,"end":29411.409,"text":"針對施政這個部分,施政行動方案的3.0,我們現在是2.0嘛,雖然還有一年的時間,但是我覺得可以提早來討論,來修正,來研議,讓3.0可以盡快上路,可以吧?"},{"start":29412.924,"end":29432.724,"text":"報告委員,我們在這個方案裡面,我們特別在持續加強,跟長照3.0一樣,在長照跟醫療的結合,發展失智精準的照顧,這個就已經有點進階了,我想可以顯示到您所說的3.0,希望能夠擴大跟精準。"},{"start":29433.899,"end":29435.3,"text":"臺灣的醫療品質、照護體系是全球有目共睹,但是在偏遠地區"},{"start":29458.528,"end":29468.475,"text":"可敬信跟醫療量能,他還是遠不及都會區。 蔡前總統在任內推動優化偏鄉醫療經濟計畫,從2019年到2023年編列是9.5億,但最後僅執行3億,我不曉得這什麼原因。 第二期計畫是2024到2027再編列63.7億,要來提升整體偏鄉的醫療品質,確保偏鄉民眾"},{"start":29482.324,"end":29509.338,"text":"叫一樣的保惠要得到一樣同等的照顧我相信這大家都是要積極努力打編這個目標但是我們根據這個全民健康保險的牙醫門診的總額若是鄉鎮的醫療服務提升獎勵計畫有209個鄉鎮市區提出申請那全國對比368個鄉鎮市區我們將近有一半以上缺牙醫一半以上缺牙醫這個情況是"},{"start":29511.279,"end":29533.218,"text":"這是非常恐怖啦,院長跟部長在看我圖表二,你可以看到我的母縣口吳鄉跟二輪鄉有將近兩萬五千的人口上下,通通沒有牙醫診所。通通沒有牙醫診所,很久的一段時間一直到現在,我覺得這樣對偏鄉的百姓而言真的是很不公平,不對待啦齁。"},{"start":29533.831,"end":29536.292,"text":"那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那..."},{"start":29563.373,"end":29587.107,"text":"那我們這個期程的計畫在第二期2024是今年喔一直到2027喔我們又變了63.7億那院長可以跟部長再看那個細項從幾個單位裡面從幾個單位裡面衛福部的醫事師是在110年度就有執行退會有執行但110年度有相關的在衛福部轄下的各師"},{"start":29588.359,"end":29601.648,"text":"可能都沒有辦法去執行,而且114年度的預算是第二次多,到時候這樣的預算被擋的,沒辦法執行。我們要怎麼應應?要怎麼處理?"},{"start":29601.648,"end":29601.668,"text":"院長"},{"start":29604.751,"end":29628.057,"text":"請委員支持我們還是非常積極的在努力希望透過各種的溝通方式也提出不同的折衷的方法希望能夠在大院草野協商能夠獲得圓滿的進展這個也非常謝謝韓院長一直在主持這樣的協商會議我們希望能夠有會獲得好的一個結果跟發展我覺得院長很努力這個我都很清楚但是現在面對到這個問題對不對都沒有"},{"start":29631.018,"end":29632.359,"text":"我認為不至於啦我們還在努力我認為不至於"},{"start":29651.153,"end":29675.612,"text":"院長你答應我不至於喔OK好那我們就看114年度他的第二期他的第二期是要如期來實施喔好謝謝院長好那第三題是這樣這個少子化我相信院長也非常在意跟部長也非常在意嘛齁那這是一個國安問題到了院長你今年要面對到一個藍體今年是龍年"},{"start":29676.906,"end":29689.953,"text":"像台灣的在整個這樣的一個習慣裡面,跟生孩子的狀態,農業是生的最多的時候。但院長你可以看,現在很糟糕,105年是15萬,111年是13.8萬,112年是13.5萬,那今年113年,又剛好院長來當院長,怎麼辦?他有可能沒有辦法破13萬。"},{"start":29698.897,"end":29724.136,"text":"為什麼這麼說?我們現在最樂觀的估計是13.2是13.2 最樂觀的估計到9月底是97733這數字很恐怖啊高拐啦 氣燦燦啦我們剩下兩個月初而已喔我們要再有3200多個新生兒才有辦法13萬不是13.2萬喔所以能夠通緯 院長"},{"start":29728.168,"end":29736.141,"text":"我不曉得你怎麼這麼有信心可以來到13.2萬這是我們國發會在人口政策報告當中一個比較樂觀的"},{"start":29738.018,"end":29755.613,"text":"分析跟預估其實現在到年底之前我也不可能把這個數字再做什麼樣的努力我們都沒有辦法我們希望明年我們能夠維持住這樣的數字然後再慢慢的設法來提升很多面向都要處理不是從單一個面向去做處理就可以讓這個聲譽提高我這邊有一個因為時間的關係給院長跟部長做一個參考他們目前是晚婚晚生"},{"start":29766.263,"end":29769.748,"text":"現在有幾個地方政府,台北、桃園、新竹、苗栗開始有在補助這個動亂。"},{"start":29777.24,"end":29804.587,"text":"國務部現在在研議醫療性的動亂服務我們要讓年輕的癌症病友在他整個治療過程不影響的情況之下萬一有這個機會可以有這個機會身體比較恢復健康他還保有生育的這個機會那我要這具體要求部長是不是擴大一點這樣的動亂的服務的門開大一點有些女性的好花的重大疾病應該都可以列入在這個參考範圍裡面"},{"start":29806.394,"end":29835.042,"text":"那動亂的服務是差不多10到15萬左右還不包含他未來這個保存的這個經費那地方政府現在已經在實施的坦白講國安的少數話就國安問題嘛國安問題是中央要承擔起來那地方要把它列作地方知識事項當然我們樂觀其成不過因為補助沒有到位這幾個縣市我們去做調查相關的補助申請幾乎是零啦幾乎是零"},{"start":29836.718,"end":29852.566,"text":"10到15萬地方政府補助3萬這麼大的一個距離落差我要請院長是不是可以思考因為國安的問題就是我們中央必須要承擔起來那衛生部也有在研議是不是可以更擴大的一個範圍然後院長來支持"},{"start":29853.59,"end":29853.99,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29878.51,"end":29890.148,"text":"就請一個月能不能把這個經會還有原意相關的辦法可以提出來。好的,沒問題。這個是很有意義的事情。好,謝謝。最後一題,剩下一分多充。"},{"start":29893.352,"end":29913.436,"text":"賴總統一直在強調,民進黨是以照顧弱勢的族群起來的一個政黨,所以越弱勢我們更應該越照顧,更應該越注意。給院長跟部長看這個,根據衛福部112年度的低收跟中低收入戶的生活狀況調查報告,112年中低收入戶既有106609戶,較107年是減少了2448戶,但低收卻是"},{"start":29922.119,"end":29924.723,"text":"在144292戶較107也是增加281戶所以減少2448戶的中低收入戶是脫貧了還是變為低收入戶這個部長知道嗎"},{"start":29940.336,"end":29961.564,"text":"部長不清楚這個要做交叉比對啦齁我現在目的要提供給部長跟院長做參考為什麼這邊會增加這麼多這邊會減少這麼多到底是什麼狀況我這邊有相關的一些報告這些低收跟中低收拖困的方法以政府提高補助他們覺得比較好的方法是還是政府提高補助33.41啦齁判執理長大就業是17.68不知用何種方法是22.73好現在問題來了"},{"start":29969.707,"end":29976.743,"text":"如果一再的用經費去做補助,我相信政府可能在處理上會有一些知識節節問題。"},{"start":30032.708,"end":30052.8,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝,謝謝劉建國委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長及部會所長的備詢,謝謝。 抱怨會﹖本會期至9月20日起﹖對行政院院長施政報告進行質詢,已於今天詢答完畢。"},{"start":30054.685,"end":30080.155,"text":"謝謝卓院長及各部會列席的首長列席答詢在質詢結束前我們再請卓院長對立法院同仁及國人同胞發表感言主席各位委員先進"},{"start":30081.496,"end":30102.232,"text":"大院第11屆第2會期對本院施政報告的總諮詢在今天圓滿的結束。 要特別向韓院長、江副院長及各位委員先進表達最大的感謝。 在此期間,諸多委員對行政院提出非常多的建言。"},{"start":30103.217,"end":30130.249,"text":"無論從各方面來看,都是未來國家要繼續推動進步,行政院要繼續改革,甚至我們在捍衛國家主權、國家安全上所必要的正確方向。 行政院一定會審慎的研議、參酌,未來適度的把它落實在相關的政策方面。 國家的政策需要有正向的推動力量。"},{"start":30131.526,"end":30160.024,"text":"總預算的問題更需要大家集思廣益共同來解決。 行政院已經提出了折衷的方案,我們希望基於互相的尊重, 基於立法行政兩院互相尊重預算權以及審議權的這種兩相平衡之下, 我們願意希望大家共同遵守憲法70條的憲政原理精神,"},{"start":30161.457,"end":30187.598,"text":"預算法91條裡面的原則規定跟它的必要程序將來成為我們在審查預算法案相關的時候成為我們共同而且是唯一的遵守憲法遵守法令的限制這個我們願意希望能夠在這個原則底下一定可以找到共同解決的方式隨著這個總諮詢的結束"},{"start":30189.81,"end":30215.898,"text":"大院也將進入到法案審查的階段。 針對下週邀請行政院來進行能源配比以及電價政策的專案報告,我已經要求相關部會整理、詳盡、完善的一個報告向大院來提出。 我更期待下週開始,我們真的能夠緊速的進入到審查"},{"start":30217.179,"end":30244.241,"text":"明年度中央政府總預算前瞻基礎建設第5期特別預算以及追加預算還有勞動部組織法以及通常會委員的人事同意權等等的 攸關我國未來發展的重大法案最後要再次的表示感謝謝謝立法委員各位先進也謝謝立法院各位"},{"start":30245.287,"end":30271.562,"text":"工作同仁,更謝謝韓院長、江副院長在這期中的辛勞。 我也希望接下來的朝野協商能夠順利而圓滿地展開而取得大家共同可以接受的結果。 我充滿了信心,也我有充滿信心國家才能往後走。 我相信政治是為人民解決問題,是為國家帶來進步跟發展。"},{"start":30275.527,"end":30293.525,"text":"還是那句話只有團結的臺灣才是最好的臺灣謝謝大家祝大家身體健康萬事如意兩院互動非常的順利謝謝各位謝謝卓院長"},{"start":30295.063,"end":30306.113,"text":"的感言,現在我們做以下決定。一、將各委員發言記錄及書面答詢函送行政院,請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆。"},{"start":30306.909,"end":30331.932,"text":"二、已提出之書面質詢尚未刊登公報者一律補刊。 現在我們繼續處理復議案。本院民進黨黨團針對第4次會議報告事項第9案、第16、17、18案之決定提出復議請公決案。 現做以下決定,另定其處理。 報院會本次會議進行到此為止。 現在散會。"}]}},{"id":"155894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe52e6bca2106091607ade09287612b20ade6989309459e154f26b757c7aa9b9ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"16:34:18 - 16:50:55","影片長度":"00:16:37","會議時間":"2024-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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院長好。 院長辛苦。 院長跟部長請看這一個報導。 長照杯葛、兵戶、士、士之戶改判12年。 那我想剛剛羅委員特別提到,臺灣已經要進到2025的超高齡這項社會。 那進到超高齡社會的最大的一個挑戰,我是從施政的這個角度去看齊。 所以像這個報導,會不會越來越加劇?"},{"start":57.181,"end":58.682,"text":"然後情況會不會越來越複雜?"},{"start":64.449,"end":80.113,"text":"為什麼?因為曾經邱部長跟我當同事的時候,我一直在強調,一個家庭一人失智,全家喪志。那個是很煎熬的,從要去到底是不是失智症,要確診之前,其實就有一段很難能再理解的過程。"},{"start":83.53,"end":111.032,"text":"到了他的花瓶的初期到中期到末期坦白講那個整個照顧階段是完全不一樣的一個樣態所以我才會特別從施政角度要來跟院長跟部長做討論那部長再看下面這個資料我們之前這個臺灣施政協會在2022年推估2026年65歲以上的施政人口會來到36萬那我們衛務部今年已經推估65歲的施政人口已經達到35萬了"},{"start":112.833,"end":127.755,"text":"然後同時臺灣施政協會在2022年推估施政總人口數2026年是37萬但今年的推估臺灣施政總人口數就已經來到37萬也就是說提早到兩年了"},{"start":129.062,"end":147.052,"text":"兩年就到來了,這代表臺灣施政的人口數急劇的在上升當中。然後這個部分我對照一個資料可能要給院長跟部長能夠理解說,這個事情如果我們不加以去做處理的話,可能要付出的社會成本跟代價會更多。"},{"start":148.239,"end":174.046,"text":"國際施政協會我是在10多年前就跟他們這個執行長那是一個法國人特別到立院來來拜會當時的未婉那時候我當召委然後他們這個相當有權威就在9月21號公布2024全球施政報告其中對臺灣部分參與調查臺灣照顧者對於社區中有足夠的施治者支持的服務認同比例"},{"start":174.693,"end":179.858,"text":"才4成8,不到一半,同時一般民眾認同率才有3成2。"},{"start":181.052,"end":210.69,"text":"很低啦這是坦白講是不及格的然後這些數據如果根據施政防治照護政策綱領暨行動方案的2.0也就是2018到2025的這個執行上又出現了非常嚴重問題尤其在去年112年在院長跟部長都還沒有到任之前我們是編了70億結果僅執行42億執行率6乘1那其實這七項裡面可以看到有一項編的特別多執行特別糟糕"},{"start":211.916,"end":235.875,"text":"請院長跟部長特別關注,因為我的時間有限,自己編的既然知情率糟糕到這種程度,是不是因為這個樣子才能讓這個國際的施政協會在整個調查報告中顯示這樣的數據出來?所以我是希望只要這個政府對這個施政的預防及照顧沒有做好,真的"},{"start":236.653,"end":260.012,"text":"真的會讓臺灣付出更大的這樣的一個成本,甚至以照顧的人力跟經費都會持續的一直在往上增加。 這個我們一定要因應啦。 所以我在這邊要具體的拜託,為什麼要特別跟院長拜託。 施政的3.0,這個行動方案3.0要提早,一定要提早。 我相信長照3.0我們總統就已經喊出來了。"},{"start":260.933,"end":290.486,"text":"那施政的照顧現在2.0執行率是這個狀態所以我們應該立即盤整2.0相關的缺失改正然後3.0要即刻上路所以這邊是不是可以具體建議部長可以折承要求因為他這個當時是跨部會的一個行動方案所以是不是請院長跟部長能不能在這一周內訂出這個要嚴厲的3.0的這個工作期程然後盡快的"},{"start":290.939,"end":317.351,"text":"用最快速讓3.0版本可以上路。各位報告我想剛剛您那個數字我也非常的震驚只有32個滿意那是不是我們還有機會因為這是今年的預算在執行趕快來看看今年預算在執行過程當中到底出了哪些問題不要在明年重複這樣的問題我想這個檢討必須要先做那至於新的3.0方案衛部是不是手上已經有在研立或是我們盡快來處理"},{"start":318.55,"end":341.093,"text":"現在總統都一直在講長照3.0嘛那其實上長照3.0是至今還沒有正式要上路喔未來未來一定要上路嘛對不對但是總統已經在很多公開場合講到長照3.0坦白講我覺得總統是在在擔心啦那甚至也要待快一點嘛所以有時候有時候一個階段一個階段但是我們的應變速度要更快嘛所以這個3.0是不是請院長"},{"start":341.772,"end":348.238,"text":"長照3.0我們是有積極在研究那現在手上的是不是最後的定案可能還要有一點時間但是如果這個草案的構想能夠先給委員參考也請委員指教這個是可以的"},{"start":361.33,"end":373.426,"text":"針對施政這個部分,施政行動方案的3.0,我們現在是2.0嘛,雖然還有一年的時間,但是我覺得可以提早來討論,來修正,來研議,讓3.0可以盡快上路,可以吧?"},{"start":374.937,"end":394.722,"text":"報告委員,我們在這個方案裡面,我們特別在持續加強,跟長照3.0一樣,在長照跟醫療的結合,發展失智精準的照顧,這個就已經有點進階了,我想可以顯示到您所說的3.0,希望能夠擴大跟精準。"},{"start":396.287,"end":399.168,"text":"臺灣的醫療品質、照護體系是全球有目共睹,但是在偏遠地區"},{"start":420.202,"end":430.464,"text":"的可敬性跟醫療量能,他還是遠不及都會區。 蔡前總統在任內推動優化偏鄉醫療經濟計畫,從2019年到2023年編列是9.5億,但最後僅執行3億,我不曉得這什麼原因。 然後第二期計畫是2024到2027再編列63.7億,要來提升整體的這個偏鄉的醫療品質,確保偏鄉民眾"},{"start":444.327,"end":471.355,"text":"叫一樣的保惠要得到一樣同等的照顧我相信這大家都是要積極努力打編這個目標但是我們根據這個全民健康保險的牙醫門診的總額若是鄉鎮的醫療服務提升獎勵計畫有209個鄉鎮市區提出申請那全國對比368個鄉鎮市區我們將近有一半以上缺牙醫一半以上缺牙醫這是這個情況是"},{"start":473.295,"end":495.217,"text":"這是非常恐怖啦,院長跟部長在看我圖表二,你可以看到我的母縣口吳鄉跟二輪鄉有將近兩萬五千的人口上下,通通沒有牙醫診所,通通沒有牙醫診所,很久的一段時間,一直到現在,我覺得這樣對偏鄉的百姓而言,真的是很不公平,對待啦齁。"},{"start":495.845,"end":497.485,"text":"那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那...那..."},{"start":525.384,"end":549.114,"text":"那我們這個期程的計畫在第二期2024是今年喔一直到2027喔我們又變了63.7億那院長可以跟部長再看那個細項從幾個單位裡面從幾個單位裡面衛福部的醫事師是在110年度就有執行退會有執行但110年度有相關的在衛福部轄下的各師"},{"start":550.373,"end":563.665,"text":"可能都沒有辦法去執行,而且114年度的預算是第二次多,到時候這樣的預算被擋的,沒辦法執行。我們要怎麼應應?要怎麼處理?"},{"start":563.665,"end":563.685,"text":"院長"},{"start":566.764,"end":590.077,"text":"請委員支持我們還是非常積極的在努力希望透過各種的溝通方式也提出不同的折衷的方法希望能夠在大院草野協商能夠獲得圓滿的進展這個也非常謝謝韓院長一直在主持這樣的協商會議我們希望能夠有獲得好的一個結果跟發展我覺得院長很努力這個我都很清楚但是現在面對到這個問題對不對都沒有"},{"start":593.035,"end":593.935,"text":"我認為不至於,我們還在努力。"},{"start":613.167,"end":637.609,"text":"院長你答應我不至於喔OK好那我們就看114年度他的第二期他的第二期是要如期來實施喔好謝謝院長那第三題是這樣這個少子化我相信院長也非常在意跟部長也非常在意嘛這是一個國安問題到了院長你今年要面對到一個難題今年是龍年"},{"start":638.92,"end":651.968,"text":"像台灣的在整個這樣的一個習慣裡面跟生孩子的狀態,農業是生的最多的時候。但院長你可以看,現在很糟糕,105年是15萬,111年是13.8萬,112年是13.5萬,那今年113年,又剛好院長來當院長,怎麼辦?他有可能沒有辦法破13萬。"},{"start":660.911,"end":685.487,"text":"為什麼這麼說?我們現在最樂觀的估計是13.2是13.2 最樂觀的估計到9月底是97733這數字很恐怖啊高拐啦 七唱唱啦我們剩下兩個月初而已喔我們要再有3200多個新生兒才有辦法13萬不是13.2萬喔陳董國統委 院長"},{"start":690.162,"end":690.863,"text":"這是我們國發會在人口政策報告當中一個比較樂觀的"},{"start":701.633,"end":721.487,"text":"其實現在到年底之前,我也不可能把這個數字再做什麼樣的努力,我們都沒有辦法。我們希望明年啊,我們能夠維持住這樣的數字,然後再慢慢的設法來提升。好,很多面向都要處理啦,不是從單一一個面向去做處理,就可以讓這個升級提高啦。我這邊有一個,因為時間的關係。"},{"start":723.428,"end":723.928,"text":"臺北桃園新竹苗栗開始有在補助這個動亂"},{"start":739.254,"end":766.606,"text":"國務部現在在研議醫療性的動亂服務我們要讓年輕的癌症病友在他整個治療過程不影響的情況之下萬一有這個機會可以有這個機會身體比較恢復健康他還保有生育的這個機會那我要這具體要求部長是不是擴大一點這樣的動亂的服務的門開大一點有些女性的好花的重大疾病應該都可以列入在這個參考範圍裡面"},{"start":768.407,"end":797.056,"text":"那動亂的服務是差不多10到15萬左右還不包含他未來的這個保存的這個經費那地方政府現在已經在實施的坦白講國安的少許什麼就國安問題嘛國安問題是中央要承擔起來那地方要把它列作地方知識事項當然我們樂觀其成不過因為補助沒有到位這幾個縣市我們去做調查相關的補助申請幾乎是零啦幾乎是零"},{"start":798.732,"end":814.577,"text":"10到15萬地方政府補助3萬,這麼大的一個距離落差,我要請院長是不是可以思考,因為國安的問題就是我們中央必須要承擔起來,那衛生部也有在研議,是不是可以更擴大的一個範圍,然後院長來支持。"},{"start":815.806,"end":839.243,"text":"從政策面的討論,無論是對少子化,他絕對是一個可以幫忙的,甚至對於婦女他本身希望能夠將來保有生兒育女機會的這樣的身體上的問題,我們能夠提早替他做解決,這個政策討論也絕對是正面的。我們看看會議部從經費上如何來因應,最短的時間上怎麼來開始執行,這個可以討論的。"},{"start":840.524,"end":852.165,"text":"就請一個月能不能把這個經會還有原意相關的辦法可以提出來。好的,沒問題。這個是很有意義的事情。好,謝謝。最後一題,剩下一分多充。"},{"start":855.366,"end":875.452,"text":"賴總統一直在強調,民進黨是以照顧弱勢的族群起來的一個政黨,所以越弱勢我們更應該越照顧,更應該越注意。可以院長跟部長看這個,根據衛福部112年度的低收跟中低收入戶的生活狀況調查報告,112年中低收入戶既有106609戶,較107年是減少了2448戶,但低收卻是"},{"start":884.136,"end":886.74,"text":"在144292戶較107人是增加281戶所以減少2448戶的中低收入戶是脫貧了還是變為低收入戶這個部長知道嗎"},{"start":902.349,"end":923.56,"text":"部長不清楚,這個要做交叉比對啦齁,我相信幕僚要提供給部長跟院長做參考,為什麼這邊會增加這麼多,這邊會減少這麼多,到底是什麼狀況。我這邊有相關的一些報告,這些低收跟中低收拖困的方法,以政府提高補助,他們覺得比較好的方法是還是政府提高補助,33.41啦齁。判執理長大就業是17.68,不知用何種方法是22.73。好,現在問題來了,"},{"start":931.721,"end":938.777,"text":"如果一再的用經費去做補助,我相信政府可能在處理上會有一些知識節節問題。"},{"start":994.721,"end":995.122,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（16時34分）謝謝主席，有請院長，還有邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：院長好，院長辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["劉委員建國：院長跟部長請看這個報導：「長照悲歌，病婦弒失智父，改判12年。」剛剛羅委員特別提到，臺灣已經要進入到2025年超高齡社會，進到超高齡社會最大的一個挑戰，我是從失智症的這個角度來看，所以像這樣的報導會不會越來越加劇，然後情況會不會越來越複雜？為什麼？因為曾經邱部長在跟我當同事的時候，我一直在強調，一個家庭一人失智，全家喪志，那是很煎熬的，從到底是不是失智症、要確診之前，其實就有一段很難讓人理解的過程，到了他的發病初期、到中期、到末期，坦白講，整個照顧階段是完全不一樣的樣態。","所以我才會特別從失智症角度，要跟院長、跟部長做討論，部長再看下面這個資料，之前台灣失智症協會在2022年推估，2026年65歲以上的失智人口會來到36萬，而衛福部今年推估65歲的失智人口已經達到35萬；同時台灣失智症協會在2022年推估失智症總人口數，2026年是37萬，但今年的推估，臺灣失智症總人口數就已經來到37萬，也就是提早兩年，提早兩年到來了，代表臺灣的失智症人口數急遽地在上升當中。這個部分我對照一個資料，可能要讓院長跟部長理解，這個事情如果我們不加以去處理的話，可能要付出的社會成本跟代價會更多。國際失智症協會，我是在十多年前就跟他們的執行長，那是一個法國人，特別到立院來拜會當時的衛環委員會，那時候我當召委，他們相當有權威，就在9月21號公布2024全球失智症報告，其中對臺灣的部分，參與調查臺灣照顧者，對於社區中有足夠的失智者支持服務的認同比例才四成八，不到一半，同時一般民眾認同率才三成二，很低啦，坦白講這是不及格的。這些數據，如果根據失智症防治照護政策綱領暨行動方案2.0，就是在2018到2025的執行上又出現了非常嚴重的問題，尤其在去年112年、院長跟部長都還沒有到任之前，我們是編了70億，結果僅執行42億，執行率六成一，其實這七項裡面可以看到有一項編得特別多，執行特別糟糕，請院長跟部長特別關注，因為我的時間有限，自己編的，竟然執行率糟糕到這種程度，是不是因為這樣，才讓國際失智症協會在整個調查報告中顯示這樣的數據出來？","所以我覺得只要政府對於失智症的預防及照顧沒有做好，真的會讓臺灣付出更大的成本，甚至照顧的人力跟經費都會持續地一直在往上增加，這個我們一定要因應。所以我在這邊要具體地拜託，為什麼要特別跟院長拜託？失智症行動方案3.0要提早，一定要提早，我相信長照3.0總統就已經喊出來了，失智症的照護政策2.0執行率是這個狀態，所以我們應該立即盤整2.0相關的缺失並改正，然後3.0要即刻上路。所以這邊具體建議部長可以責成、要求，因為這個當時是跨部會的一個行動方案，所以是不是請院長跟部長在一週內訂出要研議的3.0的工作期程，然後儘快用最快速度讓3.0版本可以上路？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我想剛剛您那個數字，我也非常地震驚，只有32%的滿意，是不是我們還有機會？因為這是今年的預算在執行，趕快來看看今年的預算在執行過程當中到底出了哪些問題，不要在明年重複這樣的問題，我想這個檢討必須要先做。至於新的3.0方案，衛福部是不是手上已經有在研議，或是我們儘快來處理。"],["劉委員建國：現在總統都一直在講長照3.0，其實長照3.0至今還沒有正式要上路……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來。"],["劉委員建國：對，未來一定要上路，對不對？但是總統已經在很多公開場合講到長照3.0，坦白講，我覺得總統是在擔心，甚至也希望要快一點，所以有時候一個階段、一個階段，但是我們的應變速度要更快，所以這個3.0是不是請院長能夠責成在一個禮拜內把工作期程訂出來，然後儘快讓3.0可以上路，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：長照3.0我們是有積極在研究，現在手上的是不是最後的定案，可能還要有一點時間，但是如果這個草案的構想能夠先給委員參考，也請委員指教，這個是可以的。"],["劉委員建國：針對失智症行動方案的3.0，我們現在是2.0嘛，雖然還有一年的時間，但是我覺得可以提早來討論、來修正、來研議，讓3.0可以儘快上路，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們特別在這個方案裡面持續加強，跟長照3.0一樣，在長照跟醫療的結合、發展失智精準的照護，這個就已經有點進階了，我想可以銜接到您所說的3.0希望能夠擴大跟精準。"],["劉委員建國：對啦，我是具體要求是不是在一個星期內就可以研擬3.0的工作期程、趕快排出來了，可以吧？應該是可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：時程排出來呀。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：請衛福部來作業。"],["劉委員建國：讓3.0可以儘早上路。"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。接下來請院長跟部長再看，臺灣的醫療品質、照護體系是全球有目共睹，但是在偏遠地區的可近性跟醫療量能還是遠不及都會區，蔡前總統在任內推動優化偏鄉醫療精進計畫，從2019年到2023年編列19.5億，但最後僅執行3億，我不曉得什麼原因；然後第二期計畫是2024年到2027年，再編列63.7億要來提升整體的偏鄉醫療品質，確保偏鄉民眾繳一樣的保費，要得到同等的照顧，我相信這是大家都要積極努力打拼的目標。","但是我們根據全民健康保險牙醫門診總額弱勢鄉鎮醫療服務提升獎勵計畫，有209個鄉鎮市區提出申請，對比全國368個鄉鎮市區，我們將近有一半以上缺牙醫，這樣的情況實在是非常恐怖！院長跟部長再看我的圖表二，你可以看到我的母縣口湖鄉跟二崙鄉有將近2萬5,000上下的人口，一直到現在，很久一段時間通通沒有牙醫診所，我覺得這樣對偏鄉的百姓而言真的是很不公平的對待！一樣是賴總統要推的健康臺灣，他其實一直主張偏鄉地區的醫療一定要到位，而且應該把健康當成是一個人權來看待，這個如果一直沒有辦法到位，坦白講，我們政府是會被檢討的。","所以我在這個部分也要具體的跟卓院長做這樣的說明，114年度的總預算藍白又擋、又退回去，那關於我們這個計畫期程，第二期今（2024）年一直到2027年我們又編了63.7億；院長跟部長可以再看那個細項，在幾個單位裡面，衛福部的醫事司在今年度就有執行，退輔會也有執行，但114年度在衛福部轄下的相關各司可能都沒有辦法執行，而且114年度的預算是次多的，到時候這樣的預算被擋了、沒辦法執行，那院這邊要怎麼因應、要怎麼處理，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員支持，我們還是非常積極努力，希望透過各種的溝通方式，也提出不同的折衷方法，希望能夠在大院朝野協商中能夠獲得圓滿的進展，這個也非常謝謝韓院長一直在主持這樣的協商會議，我們希望能夠獲得好的結果跟發展。"],["劉委員建國：我知道院長很努力，這個我都很清楚，但是現在面對到這個問題──都沒有辦法去執行，之前是在醫發基金，你們明年度把它改為公務預算，如果被列被認定為新增項目，基本上如果預算沒有過就不能動了，不能動的時候這些偏鄉醫療要怎麼執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為不至於啦，我們還在努力，我認為不至於。"],["劉委員建國：院長，你答應我不至於，OK，那我們就看114年度它的第二期要如期來實施喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝院長。","第三題，我相信院長跟部長也非常在意少子化，這是一個國安問題，院長今年要面對一個難題，今年是龍年，像臺灣在這樣一個習慣裡面，跟生孩子的狀態，龍年是生的最多的時候，但院長你可以看到現在很糟糕，110年是15萬，111年是13.8萬，112年是13.5萬，今年113年，又剛好院長來當院長，怎麼辦？它有可能沒有辦法破13萬，為什麼這麼說？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在最樂觀的估計是13.2。"],["劉委員建國：什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：是13.2，最樂觀的估計。"],["劉委員建國：到9月底是97,733，這個數字很恐怖，「狡怪」、「悽慘慘」，我們剩下兩個月多而已，我們要再有三千兩百多個新生兒才有辦法13萬，不是13.2喔！剩兩個多月，院長，我不曉得你怎麼這麼有信心，可以來到13.2萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們國發會在人口政策報告當中一個比較樂觀的分析跟預估，其實現在到年底之前，我也不可能把這個數字再做什麼樣的努力，我們都沒有辦法，我們計畫明年能夠維持住這樣的數字，然後再慢慢的設法來提升。"],["劉委員建國：很多面向都要處理啦！不是從單一面向去做處理就可以讓生育率提高，因為時間的關係，我這邊有一個建議給院長跟部長做參考，臺灣目前是晚婚晚生嘛！現在有幾個地方政府，如臺北、桃園、新竹、苗栗開始有在補助凍卵了，衛福部現在也在研議醫療性凍卵服務嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，醫療性凍卵。"],["劉委員建國：我們要讓年輕的癌症病友，在不影響他整個治療過程的情況之下，萬一有這個機會、可以有這個機會，身體比較回復健康，他還保有生育的機會，那我要具體要求部長是不是能夠擴大一點？這樣凍卵服務的門開大一點，有些好發在女性的重大疾病應該都可以列入這個參考的範圍裡面，凍卵服務差不多10到15萬左右，還不包含未來保存的經費，地方政府現在已經在實施了，坦白講，少子化是國安問題，國安問題是中央要承擔起來，地方要把它列作地方自治事項，當然我們也樂觀其成，不過因為補助沒有到位，我們去調查這幾個縣市，相關的補助申請幾乎是0，就是說10到15萬，地方政府補助3萬，所以這麼大的一個距離落差，我要請院長是不是可以去思考，因為國安問題是我們中央必須要承擔起來，衛福部也有在研議是不是可以更擴大其範圍，然後院長來支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：從政策面的討論，無論是針對少子化，它絕對是一個可以幫忙的，甚至對於婦女她本身希望將來能夠保有生兒育女的機會，這樣身體上的問題，我們能夠提早替她做解決，這個政策討論也絕對是正面的，我們看看衛福部從經費上如何來因應，在最短的時間上怎麼開始來執行，這可以討論的。"],["劉委員建國：部長，就一個月，能不能把這個經費還有研議的相關辦法提出來？"],["邱部長泰源：好的、沒問題，這是很有意義的事情。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。最後一題，剩下一分多鐘，賴總統一直在強調，民進黨是以照顧弱勢族群起來的一個政黨，所以越弱勢，我們更應該越照顧、更應該越注意。給院長跟部長看這個，根據衛福部112年度的低收跟中低收入戶的生活狀況調查報告，112年中低收入計有10萬6,609戶，較107年減少了2,448戶，但低收卻是14萬4,292戶，較107年增加2,851戶，所以減少2,448戶的中低收入戶是脫貧了還是變為低收入戶，這個部長知道嗎？部長不清楚？這個要做交叉比對，幕僚要提供給部長跟院長做參考，為什麼這邊會增加這麼多，這邊會減少這麼多，到底是什麼狀況？","我這邊有相關的一些報告，這些低收跟中低收入認為脫困的方法，以政府提高補助為多，他們覺得比較好的方法還是政府提高補助占33.41%，盼子女長大就業是17.68%，不知用何種方法是22.73%，現在問題來了，如果一再的用經費去做補助，我相信政府可能在處理上會有一些枝枝節節的問題發生，但是如果不用這種方法補助，還有什麼其他的方法去補助讓他們可以提早脫貧？我要請院長跟部長針對這個事情好好地去做一個思考，甚至於跨部會……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會從社會投資這方面來擴大舉行，讓更多的人能夠在生活上得到更滿足的照顧。"],["劉委員建國：因為時間的關係，這不是只有衛福部的問題，包含經濟部、包含勞動部都應該坐下來好好地針對這些低收入跟中低收入的脫貧，從他的就業面、從他的職訓、從他是不是有機會可以經營相關比較小規模的事業，我覺得這個是政府應該要來想的事情，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：部長謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，本會期自9月20號起對行政院院長施政報告進行質詢，已於今天詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及各部會列席首長列席答詢。在質詢結束前，我們再請卓院長對立法院同仁及國人同胞發表感言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}},{"id":"155893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe59e6122292d08312fade09287612b20ade6989309459e154f2acfd9f0a57c55585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"16:18:12 - 16:34:13","影片長度":"00:16:01","會議時間":"2024-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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現在這個社救盟甚至是用9個沒有來抨擊衛福部的這個草案。 拿9個沒有,例如第一個虛擬收入沒有廢除。"},{"start":65.296,"end":84.285,"text":"第二、家戶合計沒有放寬。 第三、就業支持沒有變化。 第四、貧窮陷阱沒有解除。 再來還有新住民家庭沒有被重視等等。 民團甚至是形容衛福部的草案版本充滿了這個舊價值。"},{"start":86.326,"end":114.068,"text":"那因為時間的關係本席只針對新住民的部分跟部長來做一個討論我們來看看這釋救法是如何對一些需要救助的新住民造成了哪一些困擾跟困境那針對這個救助法它裡面有要求民眾申請低收或是中低收入戶資格的時候"},{"start":115.369,"end":142.158,"text":"計算財力人口的範圍除了申請人之外, 包含配偶跟申請人一親等之直系血親, 這個含當然就是說父母親, 也就是說父母親要含在這個財力人口的這個計算範圍。 那本席在2020年上任之後呢, 陸陸續續接獲我們新著名朋友陳晴, 表示在申請低收獲中, 低收獲,"},{"start":142.998,"end":162.734,"text":"收入戶的時候,他們會被地方政府的承辦要求必須要提供原國籍父母雙親的戶籍及稅籍資料,財稅資料。那當然我們知道說,絕大部分新住民的雙親其實是居住在外國。"},{"start":163.715,"end":182.154,"text":"要跨海取得這些資料其實是非常的困難跟繁瑣而且每一年都要來做申請那當然過去從2011年開始其實內政部就開始有韓式那之後衛福部其實也都有陸陸續續做了韓式也就是說"},{"start":183.595,"end":206.873,"text":"請承辦人員依據《社會救助法》第5條第3項第9款,也就是我們所謂的539條款,如果因其他情形特殊未履行撫養義務至申請人生活現隱困境,然後請地方的主管機關仿視評估與申請人最佳利益作為"},{"start":207.674,"end":211.216,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":226.738,"end":246.879,"text":"第二款異親等職業血親一定要他們到國外去申請他們父母親的這個財稅資料才有辦法替他們辦理請問部長這個要怎麼處理呢地方的這個解釋自我解釋常常讓這個新住民求助我們請問部長這要怎麼來處理"},{"start":248.817,"end":276.224,"text":"好 謝謝委員 那我們想社會救治法他修正現在修法的重點是以經濟安全脫貧自利及社會投資為核心當然我們要擴大照顧弱勢那所以剛剛所以現在目前本來已經在行政院這邊做討論後來發現有很多需要再討論的所以就回到部會來做討論那我想"},{"start":277.532,"end":302.99,"text":"這幾...其中有幾個重點在人極合一這個部分也會做更多的處理。我相信...在人極合一這部分會最多...最多...更多的處理。也就是說衛福部也認為說自己的版本其實是不好的,對不對?你原先提出來的這個其實是有問題的,對不對?沒關係,我們...那個...委員所提的齁,我想我們現在在研修當中,我們會把這樣的困難來解決。"},{"start":305.055,"end":327.085,"text":"對,因為說實在的為什麼這次的版本會讓民團如此的不以為然,其實說真的很多需要照顧的,需要解套的,其實在這次的設救法裡面我們都沒有看到。那除了新住民剛剛我們所提到就是說要申請國外父母親的這個財稅資料之外呢,那還有要注意一點就是說未入籍新住民。"},{"start":327.825,"end":352.239,"text":"像這個未入籍的新住民如果他是沒有小孩子的這個監護權他是連這個資格都沒有他連申請的資格都沒有只能夠尋求新住民發展基金的資源的這個協助那如果有小孩子有監護權的話呢就是依照這個社救法第5條第2項向地方政府申請特殊情形個案判定"},{"start":352.999,"end":353.399,"text":"我想我們一定會來解決這個問題。"},{"start":372.908,"end":397.395,"text":"會解決這個問題, 連同這個未入籍的新住民的這個部分, 我們會明確的把它來入法嘛, 因為我們發現說有很多法條可能就是字義不清楚, 所以到了地方的時候呢, 承辦永遠都是以自己的意思來做解讀, 所以在第一線的時候, 這些人就被打掉了, 這需要協助的這些新住民, 弱勢的新住民, 他們就被打掉了。"},{"start":397.955,"end":419.587,"text":"所以這個部分的話韓市在韓市十幾年來一再的韓市還是沒有辦法解決。 我想部長如果是說這部分已經討論很久了。 我記得在上一屆的時候就不斷的跟衛福部在討論這個問題可是呢一直都沒有辦法解決。 好不容易現在我們社會救助法要來大修那是不是也把新住民的這些部分都考量進去呢?"},{"start":419.587,"end":420.528,"text":"部長能夠做到承諾嗎?"},{"start":423.173,"end":449.694,"text":"我想如果社會救助法所規定的對象,我們一定要給他最周全、最安全、最方便、最便利的一個...市長你這樣子的講法非常的空洞,我是想說就跟著新住民的這部分我們要如何協助?其實很多需要救助的新住民都排除在我們的法令之外...如果不具有條件,我們一定克服所有的困難去解決嘛,那如果必要需要在法律上有所..."},{"start":451.592,"end":456.036,"text":"所以本期今天跟你提的這些你們就會在這個未來的話因為這個法案這個草案其實大家都這麼的認為說不及格"},{"start":470.629,"end":470.729,"text":"會加入討論"},{"start":494.019,"end":521.597,"text":"各位討論,那像我們新的這個設計法其實大家都希望說有一個新的修正後的版本出來,請問我們有時間表嗎?這個會期會有新的版本出來嗎?有很多亮點,我想我們一定有很多亮點,就是說未來會有很多的亮點嗎?是這樣子嗎?對,包括怎麼樣脫貧當然剛剛提到的這個部分的一個只要是對象裡面我們一定"},{"start":522.726,"end":549.179,"text":"讓他很順暢的得到補助,而且不要造成不方便。另外在新的社會救助法的過享裡面,也有那種就是有緩衝期,比如說我們3加1,你可以去工作,你在工作的時候不會把你的補助取消,等4年以後,等你讓他存有一桶金,"},{"start":549.899,"end":565.029,"text":"好,部長,我們期待,好不好。主要是本席剛提的問題,我希望說在這次的設計法的修法當中能夠得到解決。那再來還有,希望就是說剛才本席所提的能夠明確入法。再來呢,本席要跟你討論的就是有關這個"},{"start":566.19,"end":568.412,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分至2時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．羅美玲"},{"start":585.563,"end":588.806,"text":"三十萬新住民之所以沒有入我國的國籍除了有個人的意願那也有入籍的年限未到甚至還有"},{"start":607.603,"end":607.623,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":638.084,"end":654.959,"text":"臺灣人的配偶,臺灣小孩的爸爸或者是媽媽,他們在臺灣生活、工作、繳稅,履行國民的這個義務,可是他們跟臺灣人一樣,他們會年老,然後會失智、會失能,"},{"start":656,"end":674.153,"text":"他們會在臺灣中老,可是因為他們沒有取得臺灣的身份證,無法入籍,當然也沒有辦法享有長照的服務。 這個問題過去我跟衛福部也做了很多的討論,可是一直都沒有進展。"},{"start":675.034,"end":702.004,"text":"那終於到了今年的9月,邱部長您接受了這個媒體的這個專訪,那針對這個還未入籍的這個新住民,如果需要社會救濟或是長照服務,您說都可以研議提升相關權益來做保障。那事隔一個多月,我想問問部長,就是我們看到了以斯的這個曙光,您這部分有開始做規劃了嗎?"},{"start":705.902,"end":709.522,"text":"第一個就是說因為這30萬如果已經取得中華民國國籍大概"},{"start":710.188,"end":736.883,"text":"就是不分族群我們一定提供長照服務嘛。 是,現在針對的是另外30萬未入籍的部分。另外30萬只要他在臺灣居住,我想我們政府一定給他有各種方式或利用其他的法律來給他最好的一個保障。 其他的法律是怎麼樣的法律呢?因為這部分,易部長您讓很多新住民其實看到了曙光也讓民團肯定"},{"start":737.363,"end":738.304,"text":"我想要列入這個長照的體系可能比較知識體大,但是他應該享有的醫療"},{"start":758.786,"end":759.426,"text":"我們會盡速跟委員報告現在的進度。"},{"start":776.306,"end":799.019,"text":"那部長給你一個建議今年我們剛修完了人才專法第21條之一也就是讓年長為臺灣付出與取得永居的外國人才也能享有身心障礙及長照的服務人才專法今年修了那更何況是本席剛剛所提到的這些長年在"},{"start":799.599,"end":801.84,"text":"我們要演繹所以之後有再認真考慮嗎"},{"start":824.304,"end":834.455,"text":"我想基於我們政府照顧所有的人民的一個立場,不管他的國籍,我相信這個都是應該要去考慮。"},{"start":839.059,"end":839.239,"text":"財政部資料統計"},{"start":854.814,"end":869.512,"text":"長照經濟的收入,目前我們還是以房地合一稅源占最大宗,大概占了七成,再來就是菸稅等等,還有贈雨稅、遺產稅等等,可是看起來就是房地合一稅占最大宗。"},{"start":871.393,"end":895.62,"text":"可是在上個星期就有報導指出, 因為疫情的關係, 股災、升息或是打房等等政策, 房地合一稅已經連續走跌, 房市下半年開始交易的持續是量縮的, 所以本席擔心長照基金的財源收入是否未來將會出現這個缺口, 尤其是前陣子家庭照顧者,"},{"start":896.901,"end":908.162,"text":"總會也提出了警告,2028年長照基金即將要來耗盡,請問部長對未來長照基金這部分呢,我們這裁員開拓其他的裁員有沒有進一步的規劃?"},{"start":909.616,"end":926.524,"text":"我們要如何來增加這個財源,更何況我們未來可能會把這30萬位涉及的新住民也要納入長照的這個照顧當中,我們要如何維持長照基金的運作呢?報告委員,剛剛今天巡打的時候我們院長有指示,我們會尋求財源。"},{"start":928.485,"end":931.73,"text":"所以你們會有,所以行政部門會有信心就是說長照基金會持續維持正常來運作?"},{"start":960.469,"end":960.694,"text":"施政"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":469,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（16時18分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部邱泰源部長。"],["主席：麻煩請衛福部備詢。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，社會救助法準備要來修法，可是衛福部的版本被公民團體打了不及格的分數，也就是說，這跟民間的期待其實有很大的落差，現在社救盟甚至是用「九個沒有」來抨擊衛福部的草案，哪九個沒有？例如第一個，虛擬收入沒有廢除；第二個，家戶合計沒有放寬；第三，就業支持沒有變化；第四，貧窮陷阱沒有解除；再來還有新住民家庭沒有被重視等等，民團甚至形容衛福部的草案版本充滿了舊價值。因為時間的關係，本席只針對新住民的部分跟部長來做討論，我們來看看社救法是如何對一些需要救助的新住民造成了哪一些困擾跟困境。針對救助法裡面有要求民眾申請低收或是中低收入戶資格的時候，計算財力人口的範圍除了申請人之外，包含配偶跟申請人一親等之直系血親，這些都涵蓋了，也就是說，父母親要含在這個財力人口的計算範圍。本席在2020年上任之後陸陸續續接獲我們新住民朋友陳情，表示在申請低收或中低收入戶的時候，他們會被地方政府的承辦要求必須要提供原國籍父母雙親的戶籍及稅籍資料、財稅資料，當然，我們也知道絕大部分新住民的雙親其實是居住在外國，要跨海取得這些資料是非常地困難跟繁瑣，而且每一年都要來做申請。","過去從2011年開始，其實內政部就開始有函釋，之後衛福部其實也都有陸陸續續做了函釋，也就是請承辦人員依據社會救助法第五條第三項第九款，就是我們所謂的五三九條款，如果因其他情形特殊，未履行扶養義務，致申請人生活陷於困境，請地方的主管機關訪視評估以申請人最佳利益作為考量，認定以不列入應計算人口為宜。可是很可惜的是，就算函釋了這麼多次，每一次這些新住民在申請低收或中低收資格的時候，都會被地方的承辦以社救法第五條第一項第二款一親等之直系血親的規定，一定要他們到國外去申請他們父母親的財稅資料，才有辦法替他們辦理，請問部長，這個要怎麼處理呢？地方的自我解釋常常讓新住民求助無門，請問部長，這要怎麼來處理？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。社會救助法現在修法的重點是以經濟安全、脫貧自立及社會投資為核心，當然，我們要擴大照顧弱勢，所以目前……本來已經在行政院這邊做討論，後來發現有很多需要再討論的，所以就回到部會來做討論。我想這其中有幾個重點，在人籍合一這個部分也會做更多的處理，我相信……"],["羅委員美玲：現在人籍合一這部分會做最多、更多的處理……"],["邱部長泰源：所以如果您的意見這個部分……"],["羅委員美玲：也就是說，衛福部也認為自己的版本其實是不好的，對不對？你們原先提出來的其實是有問題的，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，針對委員所提的，我們現在研修當中，我們會把這樣的困難來解決。"],["羅委員美玲：對，因為說實在的，為什麼這次的版本會讓民團如此地不以為然？其實真的很多需要照顧的、需要解套的，在這次的社救法裡面我們都沒有看到。除了剛剛我們所提到新住民要申請國外父母親的財稅資料之外，還有要注意一點，就是未入籍新住民，像未入籍的新住民如果沒有小孩子的監護權，他是連申請的資格都沒有，只能夠尋求新住民發展基金的資源協助；如果有小孩子的監護權的話，就是依照社救法第五條第二項，向地方政府申請特殊情形個案判定。一般來講，如果他有小孩的監護權，他是有這個資格的，可是往往到了地方的時候，承辦還是不受理，然後自我解讀，請問部長，像這個部分的話，我們在修法的時候會考量進來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們一定會來解決這個問題。"],["羅委員美玲：會解決這個問題，連同這些未入籍的新住民的部分，我們會明確地把它來入法嗎？因為我們發現有很多法條可能就是字義不清楚，所以到了地方的時候，承辦永遠都是以自己的意思來做解讀，所以在第一線的時候，這些人就被打掉了，這些需要協助的新住民、弱勢的新住民他們就被打掉了。所以這個部分的話，函釋再函釋，十幾年來一再地函釋，還是沒有辦法解決。部長，這部分已經討論很久了，我記得在上一屆的時候就不斷的跟衛福部討論這個問題，可是一直都沒有辦法解決，好不容易現在社會救助法要大修，是不是也把新住民的這些部分都考量進去呢？部長，能夠做到承諾嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果是社會救助法所規定的對象，我們一定要給他最周全、最安全、最方便、最便利的……"],["羅委員美玲：部長，你這樣子的講法非常空洞，請問針對新住民的部分，我們要如何協助？其實有很多需要救助的新住民都排除在我們的法律之外……"],["邱部長泰源：新住民如果符合補助的條件，我們一定克服所有的困難去解決，如果有必要，需要在法律上有所入法的話，我們可以來研議，因為這個是大家一起來討論，所以我想我們一定會把它做很審慎的研議。"],["羅委員美玲：本席今天跟你提的這些問題，你們都會在未來考量進去，因為其實大家都認為這個法案、這個草案不及格，所以我認為要重新再擬定這個內容是必然的，當然，部長剛剛有提到確實是有很大的問題，所以部長的意思是本席剛剛跟你提的新住民部分，都會在修法的過程當中再做討論嗎？所以有機會解決本席剛剛跟你所提的這些問題嗎？是這樣子嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：會加入討論。"],["羅委員美玲：關於新的社救法，其實大家都希望有一個新的修正後的版本出來，請問我們有時間表嗎？這個會期會有新的版本出來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望新的社會救助法有很多亮點，我們一定……"],["羅委員美玲：未來會有很多的亮點嗎？是這樣子嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：對，包括怎麼樣脫貧，當然剛剛提到的這個部分只要是在對象裡面，我們一定讓他很順暢的得到補助，而且不要造成不方便。另外，在新的社會救助法的構想裡面也有緩衝期，比如，三加一，你可以去工作，你在工作的時候不會把你的補助取消，等四年以後，讓他存有一桶金。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！部長，我們期待，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：這就是讓他脫貧。"],["羅委員美玲：最主要是本席剛剛跟你提的問題，我希望在這次的社救法修法當中能夠得到解決，再來，還有希望剛剛本席所提的能夠明確入法。","再來，本席要跟你討論的是有關長照法，依據移民署提供的資料，截至今年8月底為止，在臺的新住民人數已經到達60萬1,546人，其中有一半已經歸化取得我國的國籍，也就是已經有30萬人已經取得我國的國籍，可是另外有30萬人是持短期跟長期居留，目前這個部分的新住民有30萬，也就是這30萬人是還沒有入籍的。","這30萬新住民之所以沒有入我國的國籍，除了有個人的意願，也有入籍的年限未到，甚至還有不得已的因素，我舉個例子，像柬埔寨，柬埔寨這個國家想要放棄他們的國籍，其實是一個非常困難的事。我國的新住民要取得我國國籍也必須放棄母國的國籍，所以柬埔寨有很多的新住民其實是沒有辦法入籍，這是非常不得已的狀況，最後只能選擇以長期居留的方式留在臺灣。這30萬未入籍的新住民很大部分都是臺灣人的配偶，臺灣小孩的爸爸或媽媽，他們在臺灣生活、工作、繳稅、履行國民義務，可是他們跟臺灣人一樣會年老、失智、失能，他們也會在臺灣終老，可是因為他們沒有取得臺灣的身分證，無法入籍，當然也沒有辦法享有長照服務。關於這個問題，過去我跟衛福部也做了很多討論，可是一直都沒有進展，終於到了今年9月，邱部長，你接受了媒體專訪，針對這些還未入籍的新住民，如果需要社會救濟或是長照服務，你說都可以研議提升相關權益來保障，事隔一個多月了，我想問問部長，這讓我們看到了一絲曙光，你對於這個部分有開始做規劃了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個就是說，因為這30萬如果已經取得中華民國國籍，大概就是不分族群，我們一定提供長照服務。"],["羅委員美玲：是，現在針對的是另外30萬未入籍的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：另外30萬只要他在臺灣居住，我們政府一定有各種方式或利用其他法律來給他最好的保障。"],["羅委員美玲：其他的法令是怎麼樣的法令呢？這部分因為部長您讓很多新住民看到了曙光，也讓民團肯定，當然事隔一個多月，不能只是嘴巴說說而已，這個還要去做規劃的，到底這30萬未設籍的新住民，請問部長，你們有沒有要規劃讓他們列入長照服務當中？"],["邱部長泰源：要列入長照體系可能比較茲事體大，但是他應該享有的醫療關懷，或者是類似長照這樣的服務，我們用……"],["羅委員美玲：醫療大概是沒有問題，因為我們有健保，可是長照的部分呢？長照的部分，當初你也說這個部分，你們會列入考量。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會儘速研議並跟委員報告現在的進度。"],["羅委員美玲：好。部長，給你一個建議，今年我們剛修完的人才專法第二十一條之一，也就是讓年長為臺灣付出與取得永居的外國人才也能享有身心障礙及長照服務。人才專法今年修了，更何況是本席剛剛所提到的這些長年在臺灣居住未設籍的新住民，其實他們都是臺灣人，雖然未有國籍，可是他們在臺灣終老，那像這個部分，請問部長，你們有沒有辦法參考人才專法第二十一條之一來做修法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們來研議。"],["羅委員美玲：這個會做研議，是不是？所以這個部分之後有在認真考慮嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想基於政府照顧所有人民的立場，不管他的國籍，我相信這個都是應該要去研議、考量。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！部長，不管是社救法也好，長照也好，本席也希望所有住在臺灣這塊土地的每一個人都能夠得到照顧。","再來，本席想請教部長的是，因為時間的關係，所以我還是要問有關於長照基金的財源收入，根據財政部的資料統計，長照基金的收入目前還是以房地合一稅源占最大宗，大概占了七成，再來就是菸稅等等，還有贈與稅、遺產稅、其他等等，可是看起來就是房地合一稅占最大宗。可是在上個星期就有報導指出，因為疫情的關係、股災、升息或是打房等等政策，房地合一稅已經連續走跌，房市下半年開始交易持續量縮，所以本席擔心長照基金的財源收入是否未來將會出現缺口，尤其是前陣子家庭照顧者總會也提出了警告，2028年長照基金即將耗盡，請問部長對未來長照基金這部分的財源，開拓其他的財源有沒有進一步的規劃？你們要如何來增加財源？更何況未來可能會把這30萬位未設籍的新住民也要納入長照的照顧當中，你們要如何維持長照基金的運作呢？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，今天詢答的時候，院長也有指示，我們會尋求財源來讓長照基金能夠有穩定的收入來源。"],["羅委員美玲：所以行政部門會有信心，就是長照基金會持續維持正常運作，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：因為現在還相當的充裕，所以我們當然也要備不時之需，會早做準備。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，2025年臺灣即將要邁入超高齡社會，對長照也好，醫療也好，其實需求是會增加的，這部分我們應該要及早來規劃，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["羅委員美玲：好。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員的質詢，謝謝衛福部邱部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第16號劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"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今年龍年到今年前7個月,我們的全台出生人數是74,298人,比去年兔年同期還少了2,621人。"},{"start":107.614,"end":130.291,"text":"所以這個關鍵就在養小孩的成本太高了所以我們國人辛苦不敢生所以今天本席要替家長來請命在請命之前我們也發現到在陳水扁總統執政的那8年我們台灣的年出生的人口從30.5萬大跌到19.8萬"},{"start":136.089,"end":142.152,"text":"在馬英九總統執政的那8年,我們年出生的人口數從19.8萬回升到破20,20.8萬。"},{"start":149.116,"end":167.266,"text":"我們蔡英文總統執政的8年再從20.8萬大跌到13.5萬所以首先本席想請教這個卓院長賴清德總統的這4年有想要搶救出生率嗎有或沒有就好請檢答"},{"start":169.013,"end":182.39,"text":"有,但是相當的困難。有,很好。那本席在這邊獻策。首先想請問院長,您覺得養一個小孩子,從出生到他22歲大學畢業成年,"},{"start":185.543,"end":214.177,"text":"正常養我所謂的正常養就是你可以這個去做月子中心也可以送托嬰中心或保母托嬰給小孩子補習然後正常的公立學校不一定要念私立那一路念上來當然大學看他考得上私立或公立這樣子您就出生到22歲您覺得要準備的生養育基金平均大概要多少錢"},{"start":216.55,"end":230.121,"text":"我如果大膽的說一個數字,我覺得要一千萬。您的一千萬算是養得比較好。以平均來說,大概是624萬到800萬。800萬是納入通膨,一千萬以上的是養得比較好的。"},{"start":240.356,"end":249.851,"text":"那接著呢在這個yes123求職網的調查他發現我們平均預估就是一個家庭的總收入"},{"start":251.767,"end":272.8,"text":"總的月收入就一個月的收入呢,你如果要養一個小孩,我家庭的總收入大概要11.1萬,可是呢現在的每個月平均的經常性薪資一個人是4.6萬,所以如果父母雙薪家庭這樣子大概平均是9.2,"},{"start":275.831,"end":293.712,"text":"所以我們這樣看到就算是雙薪家庭他也有半數以上達不到11.1萬所以以上本席講了這麼多包含衛福部自己做的全國兒童生活狀況調查"},{"start":295.469,"end":323.441,"text":"就發現假設我家裡有一個0到6歲兒童的家庭我們的家庭大概有一半以上大概就一半50%可以達到收支平衡那有兩成以上是家庭入不敷出所以綜合以上所述我們如果想要鼓勵我們國人生育現在有很多年輕人他是"},{"start":324.622,"end":325.142,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":350.796,"end":378.096,"text":"在這個衛福部也在最近有一個調查就是家長到底希望政府幫助什麼就是要提高育兒津貼還有提高兒童的醫療補助因為小孩子容易生病就怕等於怕生病要花費很大再來就是增設公立或公設民營的托育機構或幼兒園也就是說0到6歲"},{"start":380.037,"end":380.858,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":409.056,"end":409.577,"text":"院長可以嗎?"},{"start":424.506,"end":444.151,"text":"報告委員 就委員剛剛所說的雙薪家庭或是在台北市他沒有辦法很輕易的撫養一個小孩所以我們現在用的是 欸不是只有台北市喔 我覺得任何縣市雙薪家庭 台北市狀況比較更嚴重啦沒有沒有其實我們這個各地都很嚴重 所以現在政府用的是比較多的社會投資家庭支持"},{"start":445.311,"end":464.38,"text":"來減輕他的負擔這是一個做法那剛剛委員所提到從0歲到2歲的專班2歲以上的育兒還有到6歲以上的義務教育到高中職到大學我們都一整串的一個政策那也許沒有辦法每一件都這麼樣精緻到位"},{"start":465.52,"end":491.461,"text":"本席所提的因為我們知道賴總統上任您擔任院長我們這個有再增加一些但是那些不足以鼓勵他們生育所以本席在這邊就是請命我們公立準公立還有這個非營利這個所有的公幼公托希望可以免費私立的補助一萬元以上"},{"start":492.242,"end":492.602,"text":"一年要支出一千多億"},{"start":509.212,"end":510.373,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":537.567,"end":564.796,"text":"這個特別的針對這個超高齡社會我相信院長跟部長都認同您會老我也會老大家都會老所以我們應該要超前部署所以我們現在長照3.0有很多要好好的來落實這個在後面剩下的時間本席會特別提但是在提之前本席還要特別提常見法我們過去是長照法"},{"start":565.436,"end":591.55,"text":"常見法就是長期健康的照顧法,而不是每個人人老了都要倒下來受人照顧,還有常受健康照顧法,就是所謂常見法的精神。請問院長,您如果年紀大了以後,您最希望的是什麼?您去想一個老人家年紀大了,他最希望什麼?能夠自己治理自己的生活,不要影響"},{"start":598.531,"end":610.545,"text":"對,所以他希望他身心健康,而且他活得有品質,可以自理,有尊嚴,不會說我失智失能要人家照顧,這個是可以預防剩餘治療的。"},{"start":611.186,"end":611.346,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":628.05,"end":651.796,"text":"臺灣大概您也知道我們2022年國人的不健康餘命是7.41年也就是說臥病在床到走要臥7年可是人家丹麥7天那我們就要想辦法怎麼樣讓他們活得健康那這一塊我們希望我們行政院可以超前部署來做那有關長照3.0的部分"},{"start":654.453,"end":672.987,"text":"長照3.0我們現在正在實施但是也碰到了諸多的問題首先第一個我們長照的發展基金我們看到114年的預算明年一年大概就會差短120.8億"},{"start":676.591,"end":695.452,"text":"我們現在長照基金大概剩下1406億所以我們可以預見10年之內長照基金大概就會破產了所以針對這一塊我們中央政府有沒有什麼對策 有沒有"},{"start":696.516,"end":703.831,"text":"我們現在要擴張到長照3.0,我們必須要找新的裁員,讓他更充裕。對,新的裁員是什麼?有考慮長照保險法嗎?"},{"start":707.74,"end":733.93,"text":"世界各國有很多國家有在用實行之後的成效不見得完全都是滿分的也有在調整的我剛剛有委員提到我們也曾經答覆過現在世界各國先進的做法我們都可以來參考學習但是要符合我們的國情跟國人的需要我們在長大3.0從家庭社區到機構到醫療到社福整套是做起來"},{"start":734.895,"end":737.316,"text":"長照保險法應該也可以考慮,只是看怎麼實施的比較好吧?"},{"start":755.763,"end":766.281,"text":"有在考慮這個草案嗎?行政院?我們有收集國外的經驗來做比較。那目前還在研擬階段。這個可能部長會更清楚現在的進度吧?"},{"start":767.569,"end":767.769,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":792.657,"end":802.449,"text":"人力的問題有一個就是世界各國先進國家做得非常好的叫做時間銀行這點我不知道院長有聽過嗎?"},{"start":804.363,"end":824.855,"text":"我可以把自己的時間先去做一個服務存起來。 存起來未來對所以這一塊我們中央政府現在有開始在部署著手進行嗎?因為這個由政府來做會更好。 不然的話現在就本席知道有些民間某個縣市做但是很有可能他這個"},{"start":827.924,"end":854.292,"text":"就是說他80歲以前他剛好都住在南部可是他80歲以後兒子媳婦叫他到台北跟他住他就來台北如果只有南部有在實施他這個時間銀行的他的存摺裡面有時間但是如果不是全國性都有在適用的話那他到了北部他可能就不能用所以這個中央政府能不能超前部署來進行"},{"start":855.663,"end":855.783,"text":"是的﹖"},{"start":877.144,"end":902.859,"text":"我們希望我們能夠看到政府早點來做,因為這個從規劃到執行也需要一些時間。那接著,有關長照3.0在地方有製造中心,有喘息服務,還有關懷據點。本席在這裡要特別為偏鄉地區來請命。很多偏鄉地區人力不足,那我們給的這個共餐費用遠遠不足。"},{"start":903.679,"end":918.59,"text":"譬如現在營養午餐平均一餐都有50塊可是如果我們這個偏鄉地區他老人有100人可是那個費用沒有彈性也不能專案補助他們的一個人的共餐費用降到18.6"},{"start":920.507,"end":931.111,"text":"這個真的是非常非常對不合理所以本席希望能夠有針對偏鄉來專案補助特別是我們也發現在我們衛福部的4916個關懷據點中"},{"start":950.95,"end":952.72,"text":"好,謝謝徐欣瑩"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（15時51分）謝謝主席，本席有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長好。本席今天想要為我們國家的主人翁──孩子們、家長還有老人家來請命。首先看到非常有趣的一個數據，我們臺灣曾經是全球生育率最高，但是不知道院長是否知道，去年降到歷史新低，我們是全球生育率最低。總生育率呢？去年降到0.865人，也就是一位婦女生0.865位。今年是龍年，照理說，我想院長應該知道，過去50年……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含我跟我弟弟出生的年代，過去50年只要碰到龍年，龍子、龍女人口是暴增的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今年龍年，到今年前7個月，全臺出生人數是7萬4,298人，比去年兔年同期還少了2,621人，所以這個關鍵就在養小孩的成本太高了，我們國人覺得辛苦，不敢生。所以今天本席要替家長來請命。在請命之前，我們也發現到，在陳水扁總統執政的那八年，臺灣的年出生人口從30.5萬大跌到19.8萬；在馬英九總統執政的那八年，我們的年出生人口數從19.8萬回升到破20，有20.8萬；在蔡英文總統執政的那八年，再從20.8萬大跌到13.5萬。所以首先本席想請教卓院長，賴清德總統的這四年有想要搶救出生率嗎？有或沒有就好，請簡答。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，但是相當的困難。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有，很好！本席在這邊獻策。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：首先想請問院長，您覺得養一個小孩子，從出生到他22歲大學畢業、成年，正常養的話，我所謂的正常養就是，你可以去坐月子中心，也可以送托嬰中心或保母托嬰、給小孩子補習，然後正常念公立學校，不一定要念私立，一路念上來，當然大學看他考得上私立或公立，這樣從出生到22歲，您覺得要準備的生養育基金平均大概要多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我如果大膽的說一個數字，我覺得要1,000萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，您的1,000萬算是養得比較好，以平均來說，大概是624萬到800萬。800萬是納入通膨，1,000萬以上是養得比較好的。接著，據yes123求職網的調查，發現平均預估一個家庭的總收入，即總的月收入，就是一個月的收入，如果要養一個小孩，家庭的總收入大概要11.1萬，可是現在一個人每個月的平均經常性薪資是4.6萬，如果雙薪家庭平均是9.2萬，所以就算是雙薪家庭，也有半數以上達不到11.1萬。","以上本席講了這麼多，包含從衛福部自己做的全國兒童生活狀況調查就發現，假設是有一個0到6歲兒童的家庭，大概就一半、50%可以達到收支平衡，有兩成以上的家庭則是入不敷出。綜合以上所述，如果想要鼓勵國人生育，現在有很多年輕人不敢生，因為他覺得生養育要花太多錢了，所以剛剛最後的數據講到，只要有一個0到6歲兒童的家庭，將近一半都覺得收支沒辦法平衡。這個是衛福部自己做的，一定、確定入不敷出的就有兩成。衛福部最近也有一個調查，就是家長到底希望政府幫助什麼？就是要提高育兒津貼，還有提高兒童的醫療補助，因為小孩子容易生病，等於怕生病花費很大，再來就是增設公立或公設民營的托育機構或幼兒園。","也就是說，0到6歲的花費……一般小孩出生的時候，很多家長可能比較年輕、剛入社會，因為經驗等各方面因素，也還沒有加薪，那時候他最需要政府的補助，所以本席在這裡獻策，也為家長來請命，院長可不可以好好來考慮，對於所有的公托、準公托、公幼，還有非營利以及準公幼，都能夠讓他們一律免費？私立的，我們來補助他最少1萬元，院長可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就委員剛剛所說的雙薪家庭，或許在臺北市，沒有辦法很輕易地撫養一個小孩，所以我們現在用的是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是只有臺北市！我覺得任何縣市雙薪家庭……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺北市狀況更嚴重。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有！其實各地都很嚴重。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以現在政府用比較多的社會投資、家庭支持來減輕他的負擔，這是一個作法。剛剛委員所提到的，從0歲到2歲的專班，2歲以上的育兒，還有6歲以上的義務教育到高中職、到大學，我們都有一整串的政策。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我知道、我知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：也許沒有辦法每一件都這麼樣精緻到位，但是我們會持續提升。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我們知道賴總統上任，您擔任院長，有再增加一些，但是那些不足以鼓勵他們生育，所以本席在這邊就是請命，公立、準公立，還有非營利，以及所有的公幼、公托，希望可以免費，私立的補助1萬元以上，我們希望院長好好思考。","接著，我剩下一半的時間……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在財政的衡量下，現在是用準公托的方式，補助從7,000到1萬3,000元不等都有，準公托的方式。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是希望他們完全免費嘛！然後私立的補助他1萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們0到6歲一年要支出一千多億，國家的財政能力，我們會想辦法來讓國家更發展。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接著，我們就是出生率一直低嘛！所以院長，您知道嗎？明年我們臺灣就進入了超高齡的社會，所謂超高齡社會就是每5個人裡面就有一位是65歲以上老人。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：也就是65歲以上的人口占了20%以上，所以本席在這裡特別針對超高齡社會，我相信院長跟部長都認同，您會老，我也會老，大家都會老，所以我們應該要超前部署，我們現在長照3.0有很多要好好的來落實，在後面剩下的時間，本席會特別提，但是在提之前，本席還要特別提長健法，我們過去是長照法，長健法就是長期健康的照顧法，而不是每個人人老了都要倒下來受人照顧，還有長壽健康照顧法，就是所謂長健法的精神。請問院長，您如果年紀大了以後，最希望的是什麼？您去想，一個老人家年紀大了，他最希望什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠自己自理自己的生活，不要影響晚輩，然後自己能夠在身心靈健全的狀況底下好好的享受晚年。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以他希望他身心健康，而且他活得有品質，可以自理、有尊嚴，不會失智、失能，要人家照顧，這個是可以預防勝於治療的。這個部分，我們希望我們的政府可以超前部署、優先來做，大家面臨超高齡社會來臨，我們可以先做。而長健法的部分，過去的臺灣你大概也知道，2022年國人的不健康餘命是7.41年，也就是說，臥病在床到走要過7年，可是人家丹麥7天，我們就要想辦法看怎麼樣讓他們活得健康。這一塊，我們希望行政院可以超前部署來做。","有關長照3.0的部分，我們現在正在實施，但是也碰到了諸多的問題。首先，有關長照發展基金，我們看到114年的預算，光是明年一年，大概就會差短120.8億，現在長照基金大概剩下1,406億，所以我們可以預見10年之內，長照基金大概就會破產，所以針對這一塊，我們中央政府有沒有什麼對策？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在要擴張到長照3.0，就必須要找新的財源，讓它更充裕。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，新的財源是什麼？有考慮長照保險法嗎？有沒有考慮？"],["卓院長榮泰：世界各國是有這樣的例子……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有很多國家有在用。"],["卓院長榮泰：實行之後的成效不見得完全都是滿分的，也有在調整的，剛剛有委員提到，我們也曾答復過，現在世界各國先進的作法，我們都可以來參考學習，但是要符合我們的國情跟國人需要，現在的長照3.0，從家庭、社區、到機構、到醫療、到社福，整套做起來花費應該會相當的大。但是我是認為過去長照支出的結構，如果有辦法做適度調整的話，我們才能有辦法因應未來長照3.0的需求。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那長照保險法應該也可以考慮，只是看怎麼實施比較好吧？行政院有在考慮這個草案嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有蒐集國外的經驗來做比較，那目前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還在研擬階段？"],["卓院長榮泰：可能部長會更清楚現在的進度吧！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，應該在階段了，因為我們都沒看到，所以本席在這裡建議可以參考長照保險法，讓我們的財源有稅收來源，我們也有一些是政府保險的財源。好，接著，有關長照3.0的實施，除了經費之外，有沒有發現人力也是短缺？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：人力的問題，有一個世界各先進國家做得非常好的叫做時間銀行，這點，不知道院長有聽過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是我可以把自己的時間先去做一個服務存起來，以後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：存起來，未來……對，所以這一塊我們中央政府現在有開始在部署、著手進行嗎？因為這個由政府來做會更好，不然的話，就本席知道，有些民間或某個縣市在做，但很有可能這個人，譬如他在80歲以前剛好都住在南部，可是80歲以後，兒子、媳婦叫他到臺北跟他們住，他就來臺北，如果只有南部有實施，而不是全國性適用的話，雖然他的時間銀行存摺裡有時間，但到了北部可能就不能用，所以這部分中央政府能不能超前部署來進行？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望臺灣是一個志工的社會，如果大家都……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個時間銀行應該可以考慮？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，就是這樣的理念，志工的社會，大家先付出，等到需要的時候，就有更多人來關心，這個應該成為一個體制跟一個機制。這是很好的構想，部長會後能夠從長去規劃未來的發展方向。"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們希望能夠看到政府早點著手，因為這個從規劃到執行也需要一些時間。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接著有關長照3.0，在地方有日照中心、喘息服務，還有關懷據點，本席在這裡要特別為偏鄉地區請命，很多偏鄉地區人力不足，而我們給的共餐費用遠遠不足，譬如現在營養午餐平均一餐都有50塊，可是偏鄉地區如果老人有100人，相關費用沒有彈性，也不能專案補助，所以他們一個人的共餐費用是降到18.6元，這個真的是非常非常……"],["卓院長榮泰：不合理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不合理，所以本席希望能夠有針對偏鄉的專案補助，特別是我們也發現在衛福部的4,916個關懷據點中，184個據點是在偏鄉，你們希望成立第二個，但能夠成立的不到10%，所以我們希望能夠有專案經費，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們來加強對偏鄉這個政策的照顧。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐欣瑩委員、謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（1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葉元之委員質詢。喂"},{"start":29.762,"end":34.023,"text":"院長好,麻煩請卓院長,謝謝。 麻煩再請卓院長備詢。葉委員好。 院長好,想跟院長先報告一件事情,我不知道院長了不了解,現在我們很多病人在急診室,如果他在急診需要治療之後,需要住院的話,在急診室的時間越來越長了,你有注意到這個現象嗎?"},{"start":58.353,"end":59.894,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":75.288,"end":100.679,"text":"有的在急診沒有床位,急診的病患是就地治療。還有的是他在輪椅上面電擊,急診室塞爆,沒有心跳才被發現。其實這個是不只是對醫療品質是很大的傷害,而且我覺得對病人也非常不尊重。但這個問題之前我們也反映給衛福部很多次,完全都沒有得到任何的改善。我先舉幾個數據給你看,第一個,"},{"start":103.2,"end":113.394,"text":"先講一個我們現在在國旅大概平均我們平均國旅大概是一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天可是你知道我們現在在急診"},{"start":115.179,"end":119.103,"text":"在113年的上半年就已經有19213位他在急診室待48小時以上我這個數字只有48小時的可能還有72小時的"},{"start":135.988,"end":154.741,"text":"還有甚至還有更高的,而且重點是他的比例是逐漸上升,你看111年比例是7.3%,到了112年8.3%,110上半年已經變成9%,這個數字看起來非常的就是沒有辦法控制,再看下一頁。"},{"start":156.638,"end":174.869,"text":"有些醫院,特別是台大醫院,台大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%,五分之一啊。新北土城醫院也是20%,也是五分之一。這個狀況這麼嚴重,那難道是因為病人變多,沒有病床嗎?並不是。"},{"start":175.689,"end":203.618,"text":"並不是,實際上是有病床,但是沒辦法開。 我們再來看一個數據,叫做這個叫佔床率,佔床率就是指說,他的醫院當初許可這麼多床,可是實際上他實際開的床是多少。 你可以看,比如說有些比較低的,像國泰只有56.42,還有一些是60幾%的,我沒有全部把它列出來,但是實際上佔床率大概要7成多才算正常。"},{"start":204.218,"end":227.409,"text":"那我不知道院長你知不知道這個狀況,他有床喔,但是沒有開,然後所以很多人就擠在急診室,沒有辦法上去併床,然後就會出現我們剛剛講的急診室非常多人的狀況,院長你知道這個情況嗎?應該是人力不足造成的。 人力不足,那確實是人力不足啊,對我有看到,那人力不足怎麼辦?"},{"start":230.384,"end":254.876,"text":"這是護理人員、護理師的人力,我們要強力的、快速的來補充。沒有用啊,現在就是沒有解決啊,因為這個事已經發生好幾個月,然後狀況越來越嚴重。我在未還委員會我也質詢過啊,當時希望部長給我資料嘛,去了解一下這個情形,但部長後來也不給資料啊。每次跟你們要資料,回的公文都是那種非常空洞,不願意針對問題回答,但是問題就是存在。"},{"start":256.189,"end":271.141,"text":"就護理人員的增加,剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的追詢當中已經有答覆了,如果容許再請部長再說明一次。是的,如果談護理人員的話,我們非常可以說是"},{"start":273.078,"end":293.814,"text":"行政院用12個策略來努力...部長你那個12個策略如果有用的話這個情況不會越來越嚴重如果我們比較一頁的話我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3095個五位的護理師在醫院增加了15、13...這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題啦我覺得問題是存在拿數字出來但是問題還是存在就沒有辦法解決沒有面對問題嘛"},{"start":302.14,"end":317.762,"text":"那現在護理師確實他們也有很多他們的所謂的抱怨嘛,譬如說他們覺得薪資不夠,然後還有就是比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床宿的配置,這個是護理師他們所提出來的。"},{"start":318.283,"end":333.59,"text":"那我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題啦就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛你現在一點大概本來應該要1.1元但是實際上現在可能是一點只有0.6元所以可以看得出來"},{"start":335.351,"end":335.371,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":350.106,"end":377.225,"text":"遵守立法院的主決議1點0.95元很多人講說你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話都在幫護士講話確實我們幫醫生講話幫護士講話因為他們非常辛苦更重要的是我們在幫病人講話我們整體來說是要提升醫療品質不是說在不是在幫哪一個族群講話所以光是健保點子這個沒有編到一點0.95元我覺得真的行政院真的有點對不起所有這麼多的民眾那"},{"start":377.745,"end":400.861,"text":"部長一直講說我們推出了什麼多少對策多少方案可是實際上他就是沒有解決問題啊所以是不是可以針對這個問題真的認真的去了解到底怎麼把人力補足否則為什麼就是沒有護理師然後護理師現在職業率非常低護理師職業率有時候都不到六成欸就是我們有那麼多護理師但他們不願意在醫院上班到底問題是發生在哪裡"},{"start":402.133,"end":422.575,"text":"所以這個部長你要去了解我想這個護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的意思我們一個一個會多努力來解決那至於急診的用賽這個部分可能跟醫療體系也有關係比如說你去問台大醫院的院長他絕對說他他並沒有關任何床他你看他的他等48小時就已經"},{"start":423.095,"end":425.756,"text":"現在不是在精神喊話我們一起來努力我們怎麼樣怎麼樣現在問題就在這邊"},{"start":442.122,"end":442.242,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":469.841,"end":489.507,"text":"報告委員,我們去年就今年第1屆第2屆其實平均等值在醫院或在那個大概都有到0.9,所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。 第二個就是其實在明年的健保這個部分,其實行政院也給我們最大的,有史以來最高的成長力,以及"},{"start":490.974,"end":511.543,"text":"所以到達5.5所以這個部分就已經到達9200億以上這是破有史以來最高的已經非常盡力所以可見1.0.9都不夠啦一定要到1.1元啦但是因為行政院不願意嘛所以主決議是0.95這不是願不願意我們既要維持點值"},{"start":512.903,"end":538.391,"text":"並行總額,那總額跟點子這樣算起來,如果1.1元的話,那總額制度就完全破壞掉了。 我不是認為說不應該,我們會願意朝1.1元去前進,去邁進,但是這個總額制度的保障,我們還要設計跟精細的設計。 院長因為這個點數的問題,其實上個會議大家都寫上過了,其實三長都簽字了,然後當時衛福部也有派代表,那現在又講另外一套,我尊重了好不好,那謝謝部長。"},{"start":540.168,"end":545.671,"text":"那下一個問題我想問一下因為今天環境部也在嘛問一個淨零的問題因為我今天"},{"start":546.874,"end":575.851,"text":"有媒體有報導就是外國媒體有專訪院長 院長有提到說為了滿足AI的產業的發展所以對採用新的能源技術非常開放然後第二點是說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障那院長覺得採用這個新能源所謂的新核能你是願意接受的嗎應該是這樣有沒有誤解你的意思"},{"start":576.391,"end":576.551,"text":"新核能技術"},{"start":591.687,"end":604.405,"text":"我早上舉個例子,燃油車跟電動車就完全不同的新技術,未來技術的進步,現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中,哪一個開發當中,它未來的商業模式。"},{"start":609.599,"end":628.902,"text":"新的就是相對於舊的,我當然知道啊,但是因為你說新的能源技術,因為你是院長嘛,所以你講的話一定就有前瞻性啊,你有研究過嘛,請問一下什麼是新核能技術?比方說2030年之後,可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的,那個所謂快中子。"},{"start":629.304,"end":653.073,"text":"有可能成功,可能成功我們現在還不知道,有可能成功,有可能成為一個商業模式,成本這整個過程我們都可以的話,我們當然願意去開放討論,甚至用一種新的方式來研究。那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別?我講沒錯,有講跟沒講,你明明就有講,你又說我沒講。第二個,你說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識,"},{"start":654.153,"end":658.944,"text":"還有處理核廢料我覺得你講這句話感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天你知道嗎"},{"start":659.751,"end":659.771,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":687.842,"end":691.204,"text":"你知道核廢料的處理,新北市政府也要協助嗎?"},{"start":691.204,"end":698.969,"text":"有啊,所以他現在乾式儲存槽已經蓋,已經放了嘛,但是院長你知不知道為什麼他當時乾式儲存槽不太願意放,你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":699.997,"end":722.472,"text":"大家對於核能的使用不知道為什麼不是是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式儲存槽裡面所以接下來我現在問你一個其他縣市也會怕啊所以我現在問你一個問題嘛因為當時台電包括經濟部有訂定一個核廢料的永久儲存的期程"},{"start":723.957,"end":744.314,"text":"這個表格也幫你找到了在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定就是說我們要找一個永久儲存場所以以新北市的立場來講只要你找到永久的儲存場不管是在哪裡你只要認真去找嘛就像我們現在經濟部長不在但是他很多想法嘛"},{"start":744.774,"end":745.254,"text":"臨時提案委員．葉元之"},{"start":759.784,"end":769.495,"text":"包括我上次在委員會的時候我問相關的部會啊。不是沒有社會共識,是因為他沒有在動作。社會共識不是因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖嘛,讓大家非常恐懼嘛。"},{"start":778.044,"end":792.157,"text":"如果你認為核廢料是安全可以處理的,你也要跟社會大眾講說,過去我們是過度的渲染,現在我們只要政府好好處理,這個問題是可以解決的,這也是你的責任之一。我們對核能要有專業的了解及知識。其實你今天針對媒體講了這一番話,"},{"start":794.659,"end":821.193,"text":"目前以我們的對話來講 報告委員 核能本身是沒有罪過的 但是我們不要把它認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹 新來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了 但是你在缺電的時候 核電就是一個非常穩定而且成本很低的供電方式啊 所以這才會 這個議題還會一直被討論嘛 後端的處理又是大家非常的閒閉 我只要提起院長啦 就是院長你有責任去處理核廢料 你也有責任處理核安"},{"start":821.633,"end":850.625,"text":"而不是說等到你們有共識之後我再來處理好像你是局外人一樣我覺得這個態度是不對的我們講出了這個話就是我們希望能夠取得共識那要積極一點好不好第三個因為院長你那時候在那個好像前兩天吧我不知道你是肚子餓了還是剛吃完飯你就在臉書發文就用那個點菜來比喻總預算那後面還有講到說如果這個餐廳他如果覺得我是一個奧客的話就把我趕出去就被人家解讀成"},{"start":851.425,"end":865.384,"text":"導閣"},{"start":865.994,"end":885.56,"text":"為了解決僵局對不對?僵局嘛!然後為什麼要倒閣?因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛!現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算,行政院認為不能依法編列預算,有幾個?沒有依照禁法補償條例嘛!沒有依照主決議嘛!你們就不想這樣做嘛!沒有依照預算法91條!"},{"start":890.822,"end":917.057,"text":"然後呢現在呢兩邊有爭議那我們讓民眾來決定所以解散國會大家重選選出來藍白的立委不只是6層8層然後院長結束了解決問題了嗎沒有因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長比如說提名陳時中當行政院長陳時中繼續不依法編列預算那我想請問一下倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局"},{"start":918.305,"end":920.667,"text":"我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情"},{"start":957.585,"end":958.166,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時35分）院長好，麻煩請卓院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：院長好。想要先跟院長報告一件事情，我不知道院長瞭不瞭解，現在很多病人在急診室接受治療之後，如果需要住院的話，在急診室的時間是愈來愈長了，你有注意到這個現象嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：知道他們在等床、等病房的時間……"],["葉委員元之：真的愈來愈長了，常常有民眾跟我反映，有時候在醫院會等到一個禮拜以上。"],["卓院長榮泰：7天也許都會有。"],["葉委員元之：這真的是非常誇張，而且是愈來愈嚴重。我先show兩張圖，你看看現在急診的狀況，有的在急診沒有床位，急診的病患是就地治療；還有的是在輪椅上面電擊，急診室塞爆，直到沒有心跳才被發現。其實這不只對醫療品質有很大的傷害，我覺得也對病人非常不尊重，但是這個問題我們之前也反映給衛福部很多次，完全都沒有得到任何改善。","我先舉幾個數據給你看，第一個先講，我們國旅平均一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天，可是你知道，我們現在在急診留置48小時以上的比例非常高。特別是你看113年醫學中心，它在113年上半年就已經有1萬9,213位在急診室待48小時以上，我這個數字是只有48小時的，可能還有72小時的，甚至還有更高的，而且重點是，它的比例是逐漸上升。你看111年比例是7.3%，到了112年成了8.3%，113年上半年已經變成9%，所以數字看起來是非常沒有辦法控制。","有一些醫院特別是臺大醫院，臺大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%，相當於五分之一，新北土城醫院也是20%，也是五分之一，這個狀況這麼嚴重，難道是因為病人變多、沒有病床嗎？並不是。實際上是有病床，但是沒辦法開。我們再來看一個數據，叫做「占床率」。占床率就是指，這個醫院當初許可這麼多床，但它實際上開的床是多少。可以看到有些比較低的，像是國泰只有56.42%，還有一些是百分之六十幾的，我沒有把它全部列出來，但是實際上的占床率大概要七成多才算正常，我不知道院長知不知這個狀況？就是它有床，但是沒有開，所以很多人就擠在急診室，沒有辦法上去病床，然後就會出現我們剛剛講的，急診室有非常多人的狀況，院長知道這個情況嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是人力不足造成的。"],["葉委員元之：確實是人力不足，我有看到。那人力不足怎麼辦？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：要補充人力，就是護理人員、護理師的人力要強力而快速地來補……"],["葉委員元之：沒有用！現在就是沒有解決啊！因為這件事已經發生好幾個月，然後狀況愈來愈嚴重，我在衛環委員會也質詢過啊！當時希望部長給我資料去瞭解一下這個情形，但部長後來也不給資料，每次跟你們要資料，回的公文都是那種非常空洞，不願意針對問題回答的，但是這個問題就是存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：護理人員的增加，剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的垂詢當中答復過了，容許的話我就請部長再說明一次。"],["葉委員元之：可以。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，如果談護理人力的話，行政院可以說是用12個策略非常努力來留人才……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你那12個策略如果有用的話，這個情況不會越來越嚴重啦！"],["邱部長泰源：如果跟1月比較的話，我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3,095位的護理師，在醫院增加了1,513，所以我們的努力還是有成果。"],["葉委員元之：這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題，我覺得這個問題是存在的，你拿數字出來，但是這個問題還是存在，就沒有面對問題嘛！現在護理師確實也有很多所謂的抱怨，譬如他們覺得薪資不夠，還有比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床數的配置，這個是護理師所提出來的。我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題，就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛！1點本來應該要1.1元，但是實際上現在可能是1點只有0.6元，所以可以看得出來……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會有0.6元啦！"],["葉委員元之：0.6、0.7都有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼會有0.6元？"],["邱部長泰源：應該沒有那麼低。"],["葉委員元之：有、有、有，也有0.7的啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有0.6、0.7的……"],["葉委員元之：就沒有到1.1元嘛！我只是要凸顯一件事情，因為現在大家在吵所謂總預算到底要不要遵守立法院的主決議，1點0.95元。很多人講：你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話，都在幫護士講話？確實，我們幫醫生講話，幫護士講話，因為他們非常辛苦，更重要的是我們在幫病人講話，整體來說，我們是要提升醫療品質，不是在幫哪一個族群講話，所以光是健保點值沒有編到1點0.95元，我覺得行政院真的有點對不起這麼多的民眾啦！部長一直講，你們推出了多少對策、多少方案，可是實際上它就是沒有解決問題啊！所以是不是可以針對這個問題，真的認真去瞭解到底怎麼把人力補足，否則為什麼就是沒有護理師，然後護理師現在執業率非常低，護理師的執業率有時候都不到六成耶！就是我們有那麼多護理師，但他們不願意在醫院上班，到底問題是發生在哪裡？部長，所以這個你要去瞭解……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的因素，我們都會一個一個努力來解決，至於急診壅塞這個部分，可能跟醫療體系也有關係，譬如你去問臺大醫院的院長，他絕對說，他並沒有關任何床，但你看剛剛你提出的，他們等48小時的就已經有20%。所以這整個醫療體系的分流分級也是要我們大家一起來努力，我相信都可以解決急診壅塞的問題……"],["葉委員元之：部長，現在不是在精神喊話……"],["邱部長泰源：不會讓醫學中心的人力需要負擔那麼大……"],["葉委員元之：部長，現在不是在精神喊話，我們一起來努力，我們怎麼樣、怎麼樣。現在問題就在這邊，也許幾個月後，同樣一個問題還是繼續發生，然後你講一樣的話，但是問題沒有解決。我們現在只是希望我們可以把這個問題解決，就這樣而已，並沒有什麼責難的意思……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是我們發現好像衛福部在這個部分其實是非常的緩慢，如果沒有什麼好的對策的話，那你把健保點值按照立法院決議變成1點0.95元，搞不好這個問題也可以舒緩一些嘛！就看你願不願意做啦！部長，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們今年第一季、第二季其實平均點值在醫院或其他大概都有到0.9，所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。第二個就是在明年的健保這個部分，其實行政院也給我們有史以來最高的成長率，到達5.5%，所以這個部分就已經到達9,200億以上，這是有史以來最高的，我們已經非常盡力……"],["葉委員元之：所以可見1點0.9元都不夠，一定要到1點1元，但是因為行政院不願意，所以主決議是0.95元嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這不是願不願意，我們既要維持點值，又要併行總額，總額與點值這樣算起來，如果1點1元的話，總額制度就完全破壞掉了。我不是認為不應該，我們願意朝1點1元去前進、去邁進，但是這個總額制度的保障，我們還要更精細的設計……"],["葉委員元之：院長，這個點數的問題其實上個會期大家都協商過，三長都簽字了，當時衛福部也有派代表，現在又講另外一套，我尊重，好不好？謝謝部長。","下一個問題，因為今天環境部也在，我問一個淨零的問題，因為今天媒體有報導，就是外國媒體有專訪院長，院長提到，為了滿足AI產業的發展，對採用新的能源技術非常開放，第二點是只要臺灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話，以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障，院長覺得採用新能源──所謂的新核能，你是願意接受的嘛！應該是這樣，有沒有誤解你的意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：新的核能技術跟傳統的……"],["葉委員元之：請問一下什麼叫新核能技術？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是說跟傳統、現在我們舊有的核能電廠的技術是截然不同的，我早上有舉個例子，燃油車跟電動車……"],["葉委員元之：比如說什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上有舉個例子，燃油車跟電動車就是完全不同的新技術，未來技術的進步，現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中，哪一個開發當中，它未來的商業模式……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，院長，你這樣有講跟沒講一樣，新的就是相對於舊的，我當然知道，但是你說新的能源技術，因為你是院長，所以你講的話一定有前瞻性，你有研究過嘛！請問一下什麼是新核能技術？"],["卓院長榮泰：比方說，2030年之後，可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的所謂快中子有可能成功，我們現在還不知道，有可能成功、有可能成為一個商業模式，成本及整個過程我們都可以的話，我們當然願意去開放討論，甚至用一種新的方式來研究。"],["葉委員元之：那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別？"],["卓院長榮泰：我講……明明就有講，你又說我沒講！"],["葉委員元之：我不知道你說這個有什麼意義。第二個，你說，只要臺灣內部對於核能安全有共識，還有處理核廢料，我覺得你講這句話，感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天，或者是你是局外人……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我講過很多次了，這是一個先決的條件。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！院長，因為你是行政院長，按照憲法規定，您是最高行政首長，核廢料的問題是你要解決的問題，核能安全問題是你要解決的問題，你怎麼可能在接受媒體訪問的時候說，只要核能安全可以解決或核廢料可以解決，我就採用核能，好像事不關己！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你在新北市，你知道核廢料的處理新北市政府也要協助嗎？"],["葉委員元之：有啊，所以它現在乾式貯存槽已經放了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["葉委員元之：但是院長你知不知道為什麼它當時乾式貯存槽不太願意放？你知道為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大家對核能的使用……"],["葉委員元之：不是，是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式貯存槽裡面。所以接下來我就要問你一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：新北市會怕，其他縣市也會怕啊！"],["葉委員元之：所以我現在問你一個問題，因為當時台電，包括經濟部，有訂定一個核廢料永久貯存的期程，這個表格也幫你找到了，在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定，就是說我們要找一個永久貯存場，所以以新北市的立場來講，只要你找到永久的貯存場，不管是在哪裡，你只要認真去找，就像現在雖然經濟部長不在場，但是他有很多想法，電不夠，可以到菲律賓把電運回來，也許核廢料也可以用各種方式去處理。但現在的問題是，我們的方案訂在那邊，2018年到2028年要完成，但是現在沒有任何的進展，包括我上次在委員會的時候問相關的部會……"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是我說的還沒有社會共識。"],["葉委員元之：不是沒有社會共識，是因為它沒有在動作。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有一天說選址在新北市，大家也不會同意啊！在任何地方都沒有人接受嘛！"],["葉委員元之：因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖，讓大家非常恐懼嘛！如果你認為核廢料是安全、可以處理的，你也要跟社會大眾講，過去我們是過度的渲染，現在只要政府好好處理，這個問題是可以解決的。這也是你的責任之一。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對核能要有專業的了解跟知識。"],["葉委員元之：你今天針對媒體講了這一番話，目前以我們的對話來講……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，核能本身是沒有罪過的，但是我們不要認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹。"],["葉委員元之：沒有萬靈丹啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：未來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了。"],["葉委員元之：但是在缺電的時候，核電就是一個非常穩定，而且成本很低的供電方式，所以這個議題才會一直被討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：之後後端的處理又是大家非常嫌避的。"],["葉委員元之：我主要是提醒院長，院長，您有責任去處理核廢料，你也有責任處理核安，而不是說：等到你們有共識之後，我再來處理。好像你是局外人一樣，我覺得這個態度是不對的。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我講出了這個話，就是我們希望能夠取得共識。"],["葉委員元之：那要積極一點，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葉委員元之：第三個，院長你在前兩天，我不知道你是肚子餓了，還是剛吃完飯，你就在臉書發文，用點菜來比喻總預算，後面還有講到，如果這個餐廳覺得我是一個奧客的話，就把我趕出去。結果被人家解讀成倒閣，早上的時候也有委員問你倒閣，你好像是說倒閣是不得已的方法。我想要問一個問題，倒閣是內閣制國家的一個制度，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有不信任投票。"],["葉委員元之：那你知不知道倒閣是為了解決什麼問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：為了解決行政院跟立法院之間對於……"],["葉委員元之：僵局對不對？僵局嘛！然後為什麼要倒閣？因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛！現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算，行政院認為不能依法編列預算，有幾個……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有！行政院沒有說不能依法，行政院也絕對要依法編列預算。"],["葉委員元之：沒有依照禁伐補償條例、沒有依照主決議，你們就不想這樣做嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有依照預算法第九十一條。"],["葉委員元之：然後現在兩邊有爭議，我們讓民眾來決定，所以解散國會，大家重選，選出來藍白的立委不只是六成，可能八成，然後院長結束了。但解決問題了嗎？沒有！因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長，譬如說，提名陳時中當行政院長，陳時中繼續不依法編列預算，那我想請問一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院沒有不依法編列預算。"],["葉委員元之：倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局？在日本，如果你倒閣，訴求最新民意、決定新的閣揆，所以他解決了僵局。但是我們這邊倒閣、解散國會，沒有解決啊！因為總統還是同一個人啊！所以總統到時候還是一樣不要禁伐補償條例……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：沒有6萬，就4萬喔！就一樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是捍衛憲法，我們的憲法就是如此規定，要反對憲法或是修憲，可以提……"],["葉委員元之：院長，動不動就倒閣這個事情我覺得很無聊，因為沒有解決任何事情啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情，所以如果能夠從這個例子開始，以後大家都依照憲法、預算法來處理，我們……"],["葉委員元之：我的意思是，不要動不動就倒閣，希望您可以做久一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起………"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來第13號何欣純委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員何欣純書面質詢："],["主席：再接下來請登記第14號徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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總委員長又見面了我今天第二段的質詢是要跟你談一些那麼雖然比較細微但是其實是更重要的啦所以我們今天就很和緩的來討論那麼我想我們幾十年來我們台灣"},{"start":58.072,"end":81.454,"text":"最大的一個特點也是我們國家的一個優點就是我們國家的醫療品質跟這個服務價格那如果我簡單用四個字形容我們台灣的醫療品質跟價格相比叫做價廉物美"},{"start":82.81,"end":107.584,"text":"那這價廉務美其實是長期以來建立在我們國家醫護人員他們有很多權益的犧牲尤其是跟先進的國家相比那他們不但所得也好他們的工作環境也好大概都遠遠不能相比"},{"start":108.527,"end":131.698,"text":"但是我們醫護人員不管是從醫學中心一直到基層醫療診所 大家都還是一樣 恪遵職守那兢兢業業的在為全體國人在效命那麼所以就提到我們委員幾乎都會提到這個典職啦"},{"start":132.793,"end":161.228,"text":"那點子當然該是多少我們國家再來細算這當然是沒問題可是這個點子的部分我覺得基層醫療的點子最重要因為基層醫療相較於其他的醫學中心、區域醫院、地區醫院而言他們的平均的成本都比較高"},{"start":162.597,"end":190.07,"text":"甚至成本都遠高於醫學中心我舉例比方說基層醫療診所第一點他們有任何業外收入他不像大型醫院有業外收入地下室可以停車有停車場有那麼多空間為了要造福病患跟病患家屬所以他們可以出租做美食中心做賣醫療器具的場所等等等等"},{"start":191.363,"end":217.857,"text":"那這些業外收入很多那大型醫院尤其醫學中心採購的藥量體那麼大他們的折扣相對也比較大第三個比方說他們一些基本的成本護理人員的成本藥師的成本他們相對平均下來會比較低那基層醫療診所這些負擔都非常非常的重"},{"start":218.772,"end":245.638,"text":"結果我看了一下我們這個基層醫療診所的點子竟然竟然連這幾年連0.9都不到0.9都不到當然所以醫界現在尤其是基層醫療診所他們是頗有怨言當然吐了怨言以後他們事後也都會吞下來可是可是"},{"start":247.717,"end":259.586,"text":"長期以往這是非常不公平的一位醫生從他學生學生的過程他要高於其他各"},{"start":261.067,"end":265.328,"text":"這部分基層醫療診所這個委屈太大了委屈大家尤其這幾年又有一個風氣那這個"},{"start":289.124,"end":301.605,"text":"故然不是在你們手上去放行的可是過去歷屆幾位院長竟然放任這些醫學中心、大型醫院他們到基層去"},{"start":302.921,"end":321.942,"text":"假藉著這個醫學中心的名號那去設置診所去設置大量的基層診所你看到處在臺北市到處看的時候那一棵大樹之下那個符號之下 欸它是個診所夠膽他去開設分院我們還沒話講"},{"start":323.524,"end":343.525,"text":"分院他要買土地蓋房舍,要購買檢驗機具等等,成本他也不花,他為什麼設診所?除了成本低以外,對他們而言他們就像把牛肉湯撐水一樣,他要來分食基層醫療的點子。"},{"start":347.386,"end":366.372,"text":"院長我希望在你任內這些通通不要再放行了不要再任由這些大型尤其是財團醫院在各縣市在各地方去廣設基層診所因為這是非常不公平的他們就是要來瓜分基層醫療的點子"},{"start":370.765,"end":395.746,"text":"這個會造成時時在做基層醫療的醫師們那非常非常大的痛苦傷心所以這一點能不能做到因為照說你都會區本來就不該你要設那你應該到偏鄉偏鄉醫療的地方去設不是這樣嗎結果台北市核准的通通是這些大型大型的財團醫院"},{"start":398.117,"end":413.912,"text":"這一點是不是院長你可以承諾這一個部分要做檢討好不好?好謝謝委員用了相當長的時間闡述基層醫療在台灣現在整個醫療體系上它的弱勢我個人認為不只基層醫療連地區醫院進行上都是困難的"},{"start":414.96,"end":443.59,"text":"那過去我在議會在立法院的時代我接觸最多的就是基層醫療協會現在也是如此我深深知道他們的需求他們所面臨的困境那麼台如果是以都會區來講又是一個治療醫療資源比較充沛的地方更不應該更不應該這樣去做來自醫界們你看他那個他們那個心聲多痛苦我就舉罕病就好罕病我們全國有兩萬一千八百位"},{"start":445.629,"end":470.984,"text":"每年需要將近百億,今年預估會超過一百,大概一百零八億需要的耗費。但是這也完全符合我們全體國人共同要救治他們的心願。結果在一屆的聲音你看,他就是要求政府說要不然把罕病這一塊從健保這個拿出來,不要加入點子,單獨來計算。"},{"start":472.665,"end":475.426,"text":"今年我們罕病用藥還給他加了一些經費預算,希望能夠加到20億。"},{"start":496.255,"end":497.076,"text":"韓病有加?"},{"start":497.076,"end":517.977,"text":"有,有加,韓病用藥。包括我們除了健保完全的加進去以外,行政院這一個部份,公衛生多20億。我們洗腎有9萬7千人啦,那現在歐美日國家他們有進步的醫療啦,那可以再加洗腎,這再加洗腎又可以免掉患者他們周遮勞頓。"},{"start":519.638,"end":542.443,"text":"那又可以讓他們洗腎時間長一點減少這個逆滲透的身體不舒服那麼這些非常這個重要結果光這個我們一屆提案來給我們那個健保這邊審專家會議都通過了現在在等所謂共同擬定會議一等"},{"start":544.883,"end":572.352,"text":"要是也不知何年何日才要通過 我覺得這個部分 院長是不是你交代部長這個部分查查看到底怎麼回事好不好公會那邊跟部裡面應該現在還在保持接觸當中我最近才得到這個訊息接觸了幾年了還在接觸我說就明年的明年這個計算的這個內容還在接觸當中希望說在你的手上在你的任內這個部分就能夠通過"},{"start":573.476,"end":580.427,"text":"我請部長趕快去計算清楚跟他們就業務上來詳細的規劃一下。 那麼我們也很樂意來看到就是說這個身心障礙權益保護法"},{"start":588.351,"end":614.702,"text":"說實在話這17年沒修了在你的手上總算這有修了但是這個修啊我整個法把它看過以後我發現我們對於自立生活身障者他們自立生活的部分還是沒有任何的著墨沒有任何的提升啦那麼身心障礙者這個所有的長照大概我們現在平均算在一天給他們大概"},{"start":618.189,"end":641.846,"text":"連長照連智力生活照護每天不得超過6個小時的這一部分的補助啦但是這個部分啦那個剛剛講到這個效應後那個院長這個部分我特別要針對長照師講的話我今天要質詢的部分喔我等了他三個禮拜啦資料都還沒來"},{"start":642.915,"end":657.61,"text":"我問他說 這個輔具啊 我們對生長者的輔具生長者的輔具 有科技輔具 一般輔具那真正生長者在使用 它必須兩者並用"},{"start":660.012,"end":686.199,"text":"但是長期以來我們對身障者的補助在這一個部分通通做掉身障者說你只能擇醫我一再的問那為什麼要擇醫同樣一個費用你讓他買兩種輔具或者有哪幾種科技輔具哪些一般輔具你有沒有這相關的資料因為"},{"start":687.319,"end":706.341,"text":"身障者真的跟家屬去買啦,到時候來申報,又不過,這個也不能過,那個也不能過,所以我就要常教師說,你答覆我為什麼不能兩者共用,兩者都買。"},{"start":707.315,"end":724.964,"text":"只要在你總額總金額內啊不是嗎然後我要他答覆我說申請那麼困難那你乾脆告訴我們有哪些輔具哪些廠牌可用等了三個禮拜他連甩都不甩啦天啊我們在立法院問"},{"start":726.84,"end":745.372,"text":"他都這種態度啦那他是如何面對現在身障者包括需要長照的老年獨居老人者他們來接洽會是多麼的困難所以也因為這樣我特別要求就是說是不是"},{"start":746.431,"end":772.656,"text":"我們針對需要長照的以及身障者我們應該開政府應該研究一個統一窗口我舉個例齁為什麼他們的需求需要統一窗口來面對比方說我如果是個身障者我今天要去學校就學我接洽的必須跟教育部教育部再跟地方教育局聯絡那來幫助我"},{"start":774.209,"end":797.314,"text":"好了 我要去工作 我要就業 需要勞動部 勞動部在支援地方的勞工局所以到底我的需求就這一些啊 那我需要長照的部分 當然那就來啦就社家署 就是我們衛福部社家署 我們一個身障者一天"},{"start":798.547,"end":824.484,"text":"要做的就學就業長照那需要跟這麼多不同單位洽詢洽詢通過他們的核准以後再去找機構來派人力天吶我覺得這樣子這樣子的程序過於冗長那麼對於真正需要幫助的比方說獨居老人比方說身障者"},{"start":825.051,"end":828.513,"text":"委員剛剛所說的狀況,我深覺得是不合理,也不應該啦。那,請會護,應該立刻從制度上馬上去"},{"start":855.267,"end":857.877,"text":"定定一套方式一般國人都應該"},{"start":859.438,"end":884.961,"text":"簡正辨明,何況是對身障者,我們更應該有這個方向去走。我們現在的照顧制度很多,但如果落實這個才重要,馬上提出一個方式,馬上去執行。是,是。乾脆我們就訂一個額度,一個金額裡面,那它多少要用在長照,多少它是要用在自立生活,還有自立生活我們至少,院長,至少從最基本的喘息服務,"},{"start":885.885,"end":888.627,"text":"你提的這些都是未來長照3.0非常重要的重點,我們會去推"},{"start":909.673,"end":910.114,"text":"我們會改善"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":253,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（15時19分）謝謝院長，我請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員世堅：卓院長，我們又見面了。我今天第二段的質詢是要跟你談一些雖然比較細微但是其實更重要的問題，所以我們今天就很和緩的來討論。","我想幾十年來我們臺灣最大的一個特點，也是我們國家的一個優點，就是我們國家的醫療品質跟服務價格，如果我簡單用四個字形容，我們臺灣的醫療品質跟價格相比就叫做價廉物美。那這個價廉物美其實是長期以來建立在我們國家醫護人員他們有很多權益的犧牲，尤其是跟先進的國家相比，不但所得也好、工作環境也好，我們大概都遠遠不能相比。但是我們醫護人員，不管是從醫學中心一直到基層醫療診所，大家都還是一樣恪遵職守，兢兢業業的在為全體國人效命。","我們每位委員幾乎都會提到點值，那點值該是多少，我們國家再來細算，這當然是沒問題。可是這個點值的部分，我覺得基層醫療的點值最重要，因為基層醫療相較於其他的醫學中心、區域醫院、地區醫院而言，他們的平均成本都比較高，甚至都遠高於醫學中心。我可以舉例，比方說基層醫療診所第一點是沒有任何業外收入，它不像大型醫院有業外收入，地下室有停車場可以供人停車，有那麼多的空間，為了要造福病患跟病患的家屬，所以他們可以出租做美食中心、做販賣醫療器具的場所等等，這些業外收入很多。大型醫院尤其是醫學中心採購藥品的量體那麼大，他們的折扣相對也比較大。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["王委員世堅：第三個，比方說他們一些基本的成本、護理人員的成本、藥師的成本相對平均下來會比較低，然而基層醫療診所的這些負擔都非常非常的重。結果我看了一下，我們這些基層醫療診所的點值竟然接連這幾年連0.9都不到，連0.9都不到！所以現在醫界尤其是基層醫療診所，他們是頗有怨言啦！當然，在吐了怨言以後，他們事後也都會吞下來，可是長此以往，這是非常不公平的。一位醫生學成的過程高於其他各系所，他們的求學時間必須7年，他們不但要實習，還要通過醫師考試，所以事實上他們實質花費的，包括精神資源，都遠比其他工作還要高。所以這個部分基層醫療診所的委屈太大了。","尤其在這幾年又有一個風氣，這個固然不是在你們手上去放行的，可是過去歷屆幾位院長竟然放任這些醫學中心、大型醫院他們到基層去假借著醫學中心的名號去設置診所，去設置大量的基層診所，你看在臺北市到處看得到在那棵大樹的那個符號之下，它是個診所。如果夠膽，他去開設分院，我們還沒話講，分院他要買土地、蓋房舍、要購買檢驗機具等等，成本他也要付啊，他為什麼設診所？除了成本低以外，對他們而言，他們就像把牛肉湯摻水一樣，然後他要來分食基層醫療的點值。院長，我希望在你任內，這些統統不要再放行了，不要再任由這些大型尤其是財團醫院，在各縣市、在各地方去廣設基層診所，因為這是非常不公平的，他們就是要來瓜分基層醫療的點值，這個會造成實質在做基層醫療的醫師們非常非常大的痛苦、傷心，所以這一點能不能做到？因為照理說都會區本來就不該，若你要設，那你應該到偏鄉、偏鄉醫療的地方去設，不是這樣嗎？結果臺北市核准的統統是這些大型的財團醫院，對於這一點，院長你是不是可以承諾這個部分要做檢討，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員用了相當長的時間來闡述基層醫療在臺灣現在整個醫療體系上的弱勢，我個人認為不只基層醫療，連地區醫院經營上都是困難的。過去我在議會、在立法院的時代，我接觸最多的就是基層醫療協會，現在也是如此，我深深知道他們的需求、他們所面臨的困境。如果是以都會區來講，又是一個醫療資源比較充沛的地方，更不應該這樣去做。"],["王委員世堅：你看來自醫界們，你看他們那個心聲多痛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員世堅：我就舉罕病就好，罕病的部分我們全國有2萬1,800位病人，每年需要將近百億，今年預估會超過100，大概需要耗費108億，但是這也完全符合我們全體國人共同要救治他們的心願。結果在醫界的聲音，你看，他就是要求政府說，要不然把罕病這一塊從健保拿出來，不要加入點值，單獨來計算，大家很沉痛的心情才會這麼講，我是認為千萬不要碰罕病這個部分，這個部分本來我們全體國人都願意也很樂意，這個部分應該無條件的就是要救治他們。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年我們罕病用藥還給它加了一些經費、預算，希望能夠……"],["王委員世堅：罕病有加嗎？罕病有加？"],["卓院長榮泰：有、有加，罕病用藥有加20億。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們除了健保完全的加進去以外，行政院這個部分公務預算多20億……"],["王委員世堅：因為我們洗腎有9萬7,000人，現在歐美日國家他們有進步的醫療，可以在家洗腎，在家洗腎可以免掉患者舟車勞頓，又可以讓他們洗腎時間長一點，減少逆滲透的身體不舒服，這些也非常重要，結果光這一個，醫界提案來給我們健保這邊審，專家會議都通過了，現在在等所謂共同擬訂會議，一等又是不知何年何日才要通過，我覺得這個部分，院長你是不是交代部長查查看這個部分到底怎麼回事，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，就我所知，公會那邊跟部裡面應該現在還在保持接觸當中，我最近才得到這個訊息。"],["王委員世堅：接觸幾年了還在接觸？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說就明年計算的內容還在接觸當中。"],["王委員世堅：我希望在你的手上、在你的任內，這個部分就能夠通過。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長趕快去計算清楚，跟他們就業務上來詳細的規劃一下。"],["王委員世堅：因為在醫界已經有相當的研究。","另外，那麼我們也很樂意看到，身心障礙者權益保障法，說實在話，這已經17年沒修了，在你的手上總算有修了。但是這個修法，我把整個法看過以後，我發現我們對於自立生活、身障者他們自立生活的部分還是沒有任何的著墨、沒有任何的提升。身心障礙者所有的長照，我們現在平均計算一天給他們大概……連長照、連自立生活照護，每天不得超過六個小時的這一部分的補助，但是這個部分，剛剛講到效益，院長，這個部分我特別要針對長照司講個話，我今天要質詢的部分，我等了他三個禮拜，資料都還沒來。我問他，由於身障者的輔具有科技輔具、一般輔具，真正身障者在使用必須是兩者並用，但是長期以來，我們對身障者的補助，在這一個部分都要身障者只能擇一。我一再地問為什麼要擇一？同樣一個費用，你讓他買兩種輔具，或者有哪幾種科技輔具、哪些一般輔具，你有沒有這些相關的資料？因為身障者跟家屬真的去買了，到時候申報又不過，這個也不能過、那個也不能過，所以我就要長照司答復我為什麼不能兩者共用、兩者都買？一樣在總金額內啊！不是嗎？然後我要他答復我，既然申請那麼困難，那就乾脆告訴我們有哪些輔具、哪些廠牌可用。等了三個禮拜，他連甩都不甩啦！天啊！我們在立法院問，他都這種態度，那他是如何面對現在身障者，包括需要長照的獨居老人？他們來接洽會是多麼的困難！","所以也因為這樣，院長，我特別要求，是不是針對需要長照的以及身障者，政府應該研究一個統一窗口？我舉個例，為什麼他們的需求需要統一窗口來面對？比方說，我如果是個身障者，我今天要去學校就學，我接洽的必須是教育部，教育部再跟地方教育局聯絡來幫助我；或者我要去工作、我要就業，需要勞動部，勞動部再知會地方的勞工局。我的需求就這一些啊！至於我需要長照的部分，當然就來了，就是社家署，就是衛福部社家署。一個身障者一天要做的就學、就業、長照，需要跟這麼多不同單位洽詢，然後通過他們的核准以後再去找機構派人力。天啊！我覺得這樣子的程序過於冗長，對於真正需要幫助的，比方說獨居老人、比方說身障者，毫無便利可言！所以院長是不是應該下命令下去研究？我們是不是應該統籌單一窗口，跟需要的身障者還有老人朋友們做一個接洽才對？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛所說的狀況，我深深覺得不合理，也不應該，請衛福部應該立刻從制度上馬上去訂定一套方式，對一般國人都應該簡政便民，何況是對身障者，我們更應該有這個方向去走。我們現在的照顧制度很多，但如何落實這個才重要！衛福部馬上提出一個方式馬上去執行。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員世堅：乾脆我們就訂一個額度，就在一定金額裡面，看他多少要用在長照、多少是要用在自立生活？還有，院長，自立生活至少要從最基本的喘息服務，喘息服務一個月久久才碰到一次嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員世堅：我們現在的喘息服務一定就是只能照顧他在家裡用個餐，連出去買個東西、出去買個書、聽個音樂通通都不行，至少喘息服務這個時間這麼短，我們可以馬上就做。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，您提的這些是未來長照3.0非常重要的重點，我們會去推。"],["王委員世堅：部長，剛好你提了，你手下的健保署、長照司、社家署，社家署服務態度、精神最好，健保署是還OK啦，最糟糕的就是這個長照司！我希望你回去丟根粉筆叫他在那裡面罰站，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會改善。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們來檢討，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員的質詢，令人感動。謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第10號、第11號的盧縣一委員、邱若華委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","一、立法院113年7月16日做成主決議：在不修改《全民健康保險法》前提之下，於114年6月30日前行政院須達成健保平均點值1點0.95元目標，以維護醫事人員權益，估算需要額外增加700億元預算，但行政院提報之明年度總預案，卻無規劃。請問未來行政院、衛福部如何編足該項預算？","二、政府目標2030年降低癌症死亡率三分之一，因此行政院預計成立一百億「癌症基金」，明年先挹注50億元跨出第一步，具傳目前正在研擬專款作業要點，以訂出草案，其中是否有部分預算將研議用於提升原住民族健康醫療？","三、行政院、衛福部是有否已推動提升原鄉衛生所設置急診室計畫？例如：先前發生之台東縣金峰鄉農藥托福松中毒案，如果基層衛生所具備急診設備及人力，就不會因距離而延宕就醫。","四、《原住民族健康法》雖已三讀立法通過，但因為衛福部之專責單位「護理及健康照護司」層級過低，是否能研議成立「原住民健康署」，專責原住民族健康照護？"],["委員邱若華書面質詢：","一、衛福部所核定之八德次醫療園區，看似給予北桃園人近年來所缺乏之醫療資源，惟八德人口近年成長直逼基隆、且桃竹苗科技廊道逐漸形成中，未來將有更多居民移入。此醫療園區目前中央僅核予「地區醫院」層級，只具備少數專科，未能有全部次專科及更精進之醫療器材、技術解決嚴重的病症，例如：心肌梗塞等重大疾病之收案，也只能尋求其他區域之醫療資源，未來勢必持續與鄰近縣市之醫療資源競爭，請院長協助北桃園成立區域級醫院，且中央在區域級醫院成立所需之資源與溝通之角色肩負更大之責任。","二、我國即將邁入超高齡社會，以113年算至3月符合申請長照資格尚不到領取身障手冊的老人數有19萬9,693人，部分老年人因退化，而經常發生跌倒或車禍意外。請行政院長招集相關部會，研擬有「必要陪伴者需求」之老人判斷標準、與必要陪伴者享有敬老卡相同優惠政策，並於老人福利法第25條修法，給予有實質陪伴需求之老年人其必要陪伴者相同優惠，藉此降低照護成本、保障老人福利。","三、衛生福利部於111年6月份核定的國民口腔健康促進計畫第二期（111～115年）調查指出，台灣成人牙周病盛行率高達8成，本席詢問衛福部牙周病數據，發現國人牙周病盛行率隨年齡增加，最高者為65歲以上族群。雖衛福部113年新增「113年度全民健康保險牙醫門診總額高風險疾病口腔照護計畫」，提供65歲以上每3個月洗牙及口腔檢查之服務，惟目前國人牙周病盛行率仍嚴重，且牙齒保健政策多半著重於國人在學期間，中老年人牙齒保健政策仍有進步空間，請行政院長招集相關部會，研擬中老年人口腔健康推廣及執行精進政策。","四、全國大客車司機缺工問題嚴重，本年度將擬開放僑外生投入大客車司機行列，惟我國各行業缺工嚴重，明年度擬修法開放使更多僑外生投入我國更多元行業，可能大客車司機復陷入缺工潮。開放僑外生引入我國缺工支援立意甚美，惟相關政策走向及僑外生後續選擇工作之自由亦其權利所在，本席表示尊重。為完全從根本解決我國大客車司機缺工問題，請行政院長招集相關部會，研擬從根本解決大客車司機缺工需求政策。"],["主席：再接下來請登記第12號葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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在接下來,我們請登記第7位李彥秀委員質詢。謝謝韓院長,我是不是可以請卓院長。 麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":25.049,"end":25.209,"text":"劉慧卿議員"},{"start":43.864,"end":61.684,"text":"議員長你從民意代表出身你非常知道工會對於我們業務的推動在職災在各方面其實都協助我們很多但是歷經了很多年其實包括我們的基本工資跟電價的調整還有包括消費者物價指數每一年都在調整增加所以我在這邊我要跟"},{"start":62.865,"end":76.241,"text":"院長再次爭取,就是說有關於我們行政補助費對於各項工會的補助,未來是不是有機會再調整,甚至有機會我們聯動物價的有機會我們重新每一次視我們財務狀況進行檢討。"},{"start":78.868,"end":99.585,"text":"我了解勞動部有在做這樣的研議﹖那可能在往後的年度﹖我知道是後年﹖因為我推動了好多年﹖我知道部長有承諾各工會說是後年﹖但是如果今年財政狀況許可﹖我們在省預算或多或少追加減預備金﹖多多少補助一些﹖我們可不可以放在討論研議的範圍之內﹖"},{"start":103.776,"end":107.138,"text":"每一個孩子都是寶,我們不僅要鼓勵父母多生,生出來的部分持育和照顧得更好,是重點。"},{"start":128.553,"end":145.779,"text":"院長我有幾個數據我們現在嬰兒的死亡率創14年新高然後包括新生兒的死亡率今年是15年的新高我們就要去探究問題是為什麼這當然有不同的問題包括我們現在女性的平均生育年齡是32.44歲就大家早晚結婚還是生的晚"},{"start":150.7,"end":166.811,"text":"三個婦女裡面生小孩第一胎生小孩三個裡面有一個是超過35歲也就是高齡產婦每一位高齡產婦其實就增加早產的風險所以我要再一次爭取院長我不知道你是不是知道這個數據就是說"},{"start":168.072,"end":186.886,"text":"早產兒新生兒6個月所需的平均花費高達11.4萬元, 遠高於逐月的每一個胎兒, 逐月生產38週生產,前6個月大概只需要2.8萬元, 所以很多早產兒的婦女還有早產兒基金會,"},{"start":187.927,"end":216.193,"text":"前一陣子不斷的到立法院來做跟各黨派做溝通所以我希望在少子女化我們整個項目就是說不只我們怎麼建幼兒園啦或者是其他的層面我希望對於非要務的早產兒的營養品用品我們是不是可以討論放在少子女化的那個整個政策基金裡面去思考這一塊去照顧早產兒的這個相關的一些營養品跟用品部長"},{"start":217.452,"end":237.102,"text":"委員的考量出發點絕對是正確的那實務上現在怎麼來做包括他的花費啦以及現在我們這一塊到底可以說過去從來沒有納入過但是這一塊我們可不可以放在討論的政策裡面研議包括去補助他們家庭的早產兒家庭的定額照貨津貼"},{"start":239.622,"end":240.323,"text":"有關這一塊我們還特別來研議"},{"start":269.666,"end":294.36,"text":"足月額跟不足月額前6個月照顧金費差至少5倍以上。我最後一個問題,包括現在早產兒的鐵的添加物現在全球是缺貨,這個問題什麼時候可以解決?部長,院長可能不知道,你要知道啊,現在早產兒的母乳添加劑現在全球缺貨,那現在缺貨的問題什麼時候可以給答案?"},{"start":295.899,"end":303.926,"text":"早產而需要魔乳添加劑,現在這個部分缺貨。 國際因素缺貨,怎麼樣去調度這些?"},{"start":303.926,"end":314.195,"text":"因為現在是缺貨的狀況,我提醒你。我再來了解國內的狀況。 其實我們在缺藥相關的一個平台是功能非常的好。"},{"start":315.936,"end":341.617,"text":"現在還是沒有,所以我現在告訴你現在沒有趕快去調度處理,三天之後告訴我調度的狀況怎麼去處理。好,最後一個問題,院長我長期在關注你周遭朋友一定很多人得過撇爪,帶狀性皰疹,上會期我已經問過了,但是沒有給我具體的答案。我覺得這件事情,我知道財政的狀況有限,但是這個是很多高風險族群,三高也好,我們是財務經費"},{"start":343.098,"end":343.138,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":373.458,"end":375.019,"text":"謝謝委員 現在在很多公費疫苗的施打方面是還沒有把"},{"start":394.429,"end":394.569,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":414.343,"end":415.323,"text":"接下來我要問幾個問題這是今天中午出來熱騰騰的民調我要請教院長"},{"start":441.168,"end":450.652,"text":"在TVBS今天下午有一份民調出來討論到總統就這個國慶的演說之後的民調有49%的民眾滿意賴總統的演說但是也有41%的民眾不支持國慶的演說賴總統是強調要團結臺灣但是從民調看起來是兩極化院長你認為問題點在哪裡部長你可以請回"},{"start":469.209,"end":482.714,"text":"如果看這樣的民調我現在我最有興趣的需要去看看那21%跟20%到底不滿意的重點在哪裡希望能夠找出來為什麼大家不滿意"},{"start":483.592,"end":486.474,"text":"兩岸關係上的表現只有39%滿意有47%對於賴總統的兩岸關係是不滿意的比在就職演說那天的演說其實又掉了2個百分點"},{"start":513.872,"end":514.032,"text":"二、六共識"},{"start":526.767,"end":545.327,"text":"請問院長,二六共識,你的二六共識,你心目中的二六共識是什麼?二六是馬祖的一個地點。對,我知道,但是你的二六共識內容是什麼?不要九二共識,二六共識尊重…形式上是剛剛那樣講的,那我覺得他講這話的意思是認為說,"},{"start":546.528,"end":553.249,"text":"九二共識,那個我們認為不存在的共識。 那沒關係,那二二共識內容是什麼?沒關係你覺得不存在的,那你的二二共識是什麼?"},{"start":553.249,"end":575.794,"text":"九二共識那個不存在的,即使他認為有共識的人,那也是二三十年之前的問題。 現在兩岸國際有新的局勢跟新的發展,應該要有新的機會,讓新的領導人跟新的兩岸事務的關係能夠來討論。 現在已經是新的領導人跟新的領導人,但是大家對於賴總統兩岸關係是越來越不滿意,所以院長你覺得根本的問題在哪裡?"},{"start":576.892,"end":591.16,"text":"兩岸關係,我想總統一直堅持臺灣的主權跟國家的安全,這一點應該沒有人反對,但是他認為中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬,這個是有人反對啊?反對的理由倒可能奇怪一點。"},{"start":596.303,"end":613.296,"text":"因為不滿意的人越來越多,從這個數據上,從TVBS,不是我李彥秀的數據,是TVBS數據出來,越來越多人不滿意。就是說,我想要知道就是說,院長你覺得根本的問題在哪裡,那如何解決?羅文嘉提出來的二六共識,你覺得有沒有能力解決這個問題?"},{"start":614.557,"end":625.191,"text":"雖然我手上現在沒有數據,但是我很有把握的請委員多看幾家的民調數據,再來綜合,光看一家難免偏失。好,我尊重。最後一個問題就是賴總統在國慶提到的祖國論,賴總統強調說"},{"start":632.921,"end":659.193,"text":"那天他談的祖國論有57%的民眾支持但是你們非常熟悉的顧寬敏的夫人王美秀女士說她要請問賴總統這個國家的歷史是從什麼時候開始也就是深綠獨派的很多人還是對於賴總統對於國家的歷史是從什麼時候開始是有意見的所以我要請問院長就是說你們如何去處理這個深綠獨派的反彈"},{"start":659.833,"end":684.866,"text":"身為中華民國臺灣的總統,取得就是國家跟人民的最大公約數。難免會有人對他的當時的講話,會有不同的意見。所以不需要去理他?不是不需要去理他,如果能夠取得最大公約數,我們繼續做這樣的論述,那麼去跟其他不同意見或是還沒有接受的國人能夠做更多的說明。比方你剛剛第一題,我就希望我能找出"},{"start":685.964,"end":691.488,"text":"希望接下來無論是你們的二六共識希望下一次在做民調的時候反彈的人可以越來越少,期待有更好的目標、更好的結果。"},{"start":708.24,"end":728.188,"text":"好,院長我接下來還是要回到我的胃環,因為前幾組其實問到很多我們的健保的問題,其實在這段時間各個部會為了裁員的問題其實大家都會有很多的討論,那裁員確實是在這一次預算審查當中的重中之重,這一次我們看到勞保基金在114年編了1400"},{"start":731.189,"end":731.509,"text":"對於老闆基金的撥補﹚"},{"start":757.483,"end":770.738,"text":"其實金額都不算小對不對算多嘛部長點頭嘛對不對這個事情呢聽到在邱部長的耳朵裡面我們的健保今年只撥336億哇"},{"start":774.755,"end":790.022,"text":"一千四百也很多。一千億也很多。 財務健全的那一部分,健保我們還有很多,還有整個加起來是五百多億,甚至再加上公務預算一路等於一百一十幾億。 你讓我講,我會說給你聽。今年你編列336億的預算,要去撥補健保,但是實質的健保的內容,院長你看我後面的表就知道了。"},{"start":802.068,"end":826.506,"text":"三百三十六億當中有一部分一百一十億本來就是政府依法要補足編列百分之三十六政府應該負擔百分之三十六比例的健保經費三百三十六億是這樣子然後有一百一十億是吃健保豆腐然後另外一百三十四億是原來欠健保另外十億是菸捐所以你們現在只是把錢再撥還給菸捐所以我覺得我為什麼是這樣講"},{"start":830.109,"end":830.269,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":846.713,"end":875.908,"text":"我要提到賴總統在今年成立的三大委員會當中他說他要替國家發展擬定戰略和民間的一些對話跟目標這三大委員會也會成為我們世界的解方替國家擬定戰略政策這三大目標當中有一個就是健康台灣所以在我看來健康台灣一手覺得健康台灣在另一隻手就是踐踏我們的健保對很多醫界來說臺電不能倒"},{"start":876.408,"end":878.65,"text":"委員今年的健保費用已經高達九千兩百多億了。九千兩百多億。"},{"start":899.577,"end":899.597,"text":"請問院長,"},{"start":920.111,"end":941.391,"text":"謝謝﹖"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（15時3分）謝謝韓院長，我是不是可以請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["李委員彥秀：順便請邱部長、何部長。"],["主席：麻煩請衛福部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我的問題很多，我先問幾個四大族群關心的議題，就是關於勞健保行政補助費的部分。院長，你從民意代表出身，非常知道工會對於我們業務的推動，在職災、在各方面其實都協助我們很多，但是歷經了很多年，包括基本工資跟電價的調整，還有消費者物價指數每一年都在調整、增加，所以我在這邊要跟院長再次爭取，關於行政補助費對於各項工會的補助，未來是不是有機會再調整，甚至連動物價，有機會重新視財務狀況進行檢討？"],["卓院長榮泰：就我的了解，勞動部有在做這樣的研議，可能在往後的年度……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道是後年，因為我推動了好多年，我知道部長有承諾各工會說是後年，但如果今年財政狀況許可，我們在審預算，或多或少有追加減預算、有預備金，多多少少補助一些，我們可不可以將其放在討論、研議的範圍之內？"],["卓院長榮泰：這又回到……"],["李委員彥秀：視我們的財務狀況，好不好？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：不只是財務狀況，這要回到審查預算的程序。"],["李委員彥秀：我們再來討論，好不好？這是我第一個問題。","第二個是少子女化的問題，何部長你可以請回了。關於少子女化的問題，每一個孩子都是寶，我們不僅要鼓勵父母多生，生出來的部分、質的部分如何照顧得更好也是重點。院長，在此有幾個數據，我們現在嬰兒死亡率創14年來新高，包括新生兒死亡率，今年是15年來的新高，我們就要去探究問題為什麼會如此。這當然有不同的問題，包括我們現在女性平均生育年齡是32.44歲，大家晚結婚、孩子生得晚，每3位婦女裡面就有一個第一胎生小孩是超過35歲，也就是高齡產婦。每一位高齡產婦其實就會增加早產的風險，所以我要再一次爭取，院長，我不知道你知不知道這個數據，就是早產新生兒前6個月所需的平均花費高達11.4萬，遠高於足月生產（36週至38週）的胎兒，足月生產前6個月的花費大概只需要2.8萬，所以很多有早產兒的婦女，還有早產兒基金會，前一陣子不斷地到立法院來跟各黨派做溝通。所以我希望在少子女化整個項目裡面，不只是建幼兒園或者是其他的層面，我希望對於非藥物的早產兒營養品、用品，我們是不是可以討論，將其放在少子女化那整個政策基金裡面，去思考這一塊，去照顧早產兒相關的一些營養品跟用品？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的考量、出發點絕對是正確的，實務上現在怎麼來做，包括他的花費以及現在怎麼樣……"],["李委員彥秀：我們這塊到底可不可以做？過去這塊從來沒有納入過，但是這一塊我們可不可以放在討論的政策裡面來研議，包括去補助早產兒家庭的定額照護津貼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長說明。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，謝謝委員關心早產兒花費等相關的經費，早產兒的照護，的確從醫療上以及他後續的照護，需要很多的資源……"],["李委員彥秀：對，所以這一塊放進少子女化的整個政策裡面、基金裡面，看看怎麼樣去處理，所以請研議、討論定額的照護津貼，以照顧這些早產兒，好不好？因為很多年輕或高齡的，這些費用真的讓他們吃不消。"],["邱部長泰源：有關這一塊，我們會特別來研議。"],["李委員彥秀：那是5倍的差距，即足月兒跟不足月兒前6個月照護經費差了至少5倍以上。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，好。"],["李委員彥秀：接下來，早產兒照護中鐵的添加劑，現在全球是缺貨的，這個問題什麼時候可以解決？院長可能不知道，但部長你要知道，早產兒的母乳添加劑現在是全球缺貨，所以現在缺貨的問題，什麼時候可以給答案？早產兒需要母乳添加劑，但現在這個部分基於國際因素缺貨，所以怎麼樣去調度呢？因為現在是缺貨的狀況，所以我提醒你，請帶回去，因為……"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來了解國內的狀況，其實我們在缺藥相關的平臺上，它的功能非常的好，如果有任何的反映……"],["李委員彥秀：現在還是沒有！所以我先告訴你，現在是沒有的，請趕快去調度處理，3天之後告訴我調度的狀況，包括怎麼去處理。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["李委員彥秀：最後一個問題，院長，我長期都有在關注，院長，你周遭朋友中，一定很多人得過皮蛇（帶狀疱疹）。上會期我已經問過了，但是沒有給我具體的答案，就這件事情，我知道財政的狀況有限，但是這涉及很多高風險族群，包括三高族群，因此，我們視財務經費狀況來做補助，這部分我一直在爭取。現在有一些縣市對於有可能得帶狀疱疹的高危險群有一些補助，有一些縣市因為財務狀況不好並沒有做，所以我一直希望中央帶頭來補助、來做這件事情，至於是不是包括三高或者是低收入戶，或者是三高又是低收入戶，我們再來做考量，而且我們可以分階段來做，但是如果政府在第一時間釋出一些善意，至少照顧到經濟上有困難但是又是高危險群，換言之，如果經費許可，我們可以來試試看，但是如果連到底什麼樣的狀況、需要多少經費，你們連那個表都沒有做出來，我們怎麼去做進一步的討論、評估？所以院長，我們可不可以趕快做這件事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，現在在很多公費疫苗的施打方面，是還沒有把帶狀疱疹納入公費疫苗……"],["李委員彥秀：是，這個我已經問第二次了，你很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它的每一劑費用確實是高，但是一般隨著年齡的增加……"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有說要補助所有的人，所以我才說低收入戶跟三高，我們來評估看看需要多少錢，再來看怎麼做，但如果你們連評估都沒有評估過，我怎麼跟你討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請衛福部來……"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝，部長你請回。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們會視疫苗的基金財源跟逐年疾病的負擔，國內是不是……"],["李委員彥秀：那你要評估出來，你那個表都沒送給我！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會再提報ACIP來……"],["李委員彥秀：好，我今天時間有限，請把表送給我，我會在預算審查的主決議提案中寫得很清楚，不然我就會做處理喔，我先提醒部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["李委員彥秀：接下來我要問幾個問題，這是今天中午出來熱騰騰的民調，我要請教院長。TVBS今天下午有一份民調出來，是總統國慶演說之後的民調，有將近49%的民眾滿意賴總統的演說，但是也有41%的民眾不支持，國慶演說中賴總統強調要團結臺灣，但是從民調看起來是兩極化，院長，你認為問題點在哪裡？","部長，你可以請回。"],["主席：邱部長請回。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果看這樣的民調，我現在最有興趣的是想要去看看那21%跟20%到底不滿意的重點在哪裡，希望能夠找出來為什麼大家不滿意。"],["李委員彥秀：那如何去團結臺灣？因為這個照理說是要團結臺灣，但看起來是兩極化。"],["卓院長榮泰：找出原因之後，想辦法，就有辦法來團結臺灣啊。"],["李委員彥秀：好，希望院長可以找得到辦法，因為我今天問題很多，就不著重在這邊。","另外，在兩岸關係上的表現，只有39%滿意，有47%對於賴總統的兩岸關係是不滿意的，比照就職演說那天的民調又掉了2個百分點，也就是說，有越來越多的群眾對於賴總統處理兩岸關係是不滿意的，這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，我聽到羅文嘉副董事長說要跟對岸談26共識，請問院長，你心目中的26共識是什麼？26共識……"],["卓院長榮泰：26是馬祖的一個地點……"],["李委員彥秀：對，我知道，但是你的26共識的內容是什麼？因為你們不要92共識，要26共識，我尊重，但……"],["卓院長榮泰：形式上是剛剛那樣講的，我覺得他講這個話的意思是認為，92共識，那個我們認為不存在的共識是……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，那26共識的內容是什麼？沒關係，你覺得不存在，那你的26共識是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：92共識那個是不存在的，即使是認為有共識的人，那也是二十、三十年之前的問題，現在兩岸、國際有新的局勢跟新的發展，應該要有新的機會，讓新的領導人跟新的兩岸事務的關係能夠來討論雙方的……"],["李委員彥秀：現在已經是新的領導，賴總統是新的領導人，但是大家對賴總統的兩岸關係是越來越不滿意，所以院長，你認為根本的問題在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩岸關係，我想總統一直堅持臺灣的主權跟國家的安全，這一點應該沒有人反對，但是他認為中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬，這個是有人反對啊……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：反對的理由倒是很奇怪的……"],["李委員彥秀：賴總統對於兩岸的論述有人支持有人反對，所以我的問題是說，因為不滿意的人越來越多，從這個數據來看，這是TVBS的民調數據，不是我李彥秀的數據，是從TVBS的數據顯示出來有越來越多人不滿意，我想要知道，院長，你覺得根本的問題在哪裡？如何解決？羅文嘉提出來的26共識，你覺得有沒有能力解決這個問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然我手上現在沒有數據，但是我很有把握地請委員多看幾家的民調數據，再來綜合，光看一家難免偏失。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我尊重。","最後一個問題就是賴總統在國慶提到的祖國論，賴清德總統強調說……那天他談的祖國論有57%的民眾支持，但是你們非常熟悉的辜寬敏夫人──王美琇女士說，他要請問賴總統這個國家的歷史是從什麼時候開始，也就是深綠、獨派有很多人還是對於賴總統對國家歷史是從什麼時候開始是有意見的，所以我要請問院長，你們如何處理深綠、獨派的反彈？"],["卓院長榮泰：身為中華民國臺灣的總統，取的就是國家跟人民的最大公約數，難免會有人對他當時的講話有不同的意見，但是總統……"],["李委員彥秀：所以不需要去理它？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是不要去理它……"],["李委員彥秀：把它當塑膠，繼續往前走？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果能夠取得最大公約數，我們繼續做這樣的論述，跟其他不同意見或者還沒有接受的國人去做更多的說明，比方你剛剛的第一題，我就希望我能找出不同意的人，我也希望未來我們有能力找出兩邊各有意見的人，把這個最大公約數能夠越集越大，這樣就是國家臺灣的團結。"],["李委員彥秀：好，希望接下來無論是你們的26共識，希望下一次在做民調的時候，反彈的人可以越來越少，期待有更好的目標，有更好的結果……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，我們也有這樣的期待。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我接下來還是要回到衛環這個主題。前幾組其實問到很多我們健保的問題，其實在這段時間，各部會為了財源的問題，大家都有很多的討論，財源確實是這一次預算審查當中的重中之重。這一次我們看到勞保基金在114年編了1,300億，雖然勞保撥補何部長說這是改革，但是對你來說，它也不見得是，反正撥補就是撥補，總而言之，勞保基金我們撥了1,300億；另外，在台電的部分，我們今年編了1,000億，明年又要給1,000億，所以就是持續地送上大紅包。這兩個政策，無論是對台電的撥補，還是對勞保基金的撥補，其實金額都不算小，對不對？算多嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員彥秀：院長點頭嘛，對不對？這個事情聽在邱部長的耳朵裡面，我們的健保今年只撥336億，哇，1,400億很多呢，1,000億也很多……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是健保財務健全的那一部分，健保我們還有很多，整個加起來是五百多億，甚至再加上公務預算移入的117億，這個數字更大，336……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，院長，我……你讓我講完，我會說給你聽。"],["卓院長榮泰：336是健全財務的部分。"],["李委員彥秀：你今年編列了336億的預算要去撥補健保，但是實質的健保的內容，院長，你看我後面的表就知道了，336億當中有一部分110億，本來就是政府依法要補足編列百分之三十六，政府應該負擔百分之三十六比例的健保經費，336億是這樣子，然後有110億是吃健保豆腐，然後另外134億是原來欠健保，另外10億是菸捐，所以你們現在只是把錢再撥還給菸捐。我為什麼這樣講，因為看到台電可以撥補1,000億，看到勞保可以撥補1,300億，在健保的部分，在很多醫界人士的眼中，大家就會覺得說，台電不能倒，那難道健保就能倒嗎？","另外我還要提到，賴總統在今年宣布成立三大委員會，他說他要替國家發展擬定戰略，與民間力量展開對話，讓臺灣的策略成為世界的解方。這三大委員會當中有一個就是「健康台灣」。所以在我看來，民進黨一手舉著「健康台灣」，但另外一隻手就在踐踏我們的健保。對於很多醫界人士來說，台電不能倒，但是健保就是要持續吃我們的豆腐，那特別是，我最後1分鐘……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，今年的健保費用已經高達九千兩百多億了……"],["李委員彥秀：但今年只提撥336億……"],["卓院長榮泰：九千兩百多億。"],["李委員彥秀：你今年就是336億，所以賴總統說今年不要再談點值，要看價值，但是在我看來，賴總統的價值就是持續叫醫界做功德。就是持續叫醫界做功德，叫護理人員做功德，在我眼睛看起來就是這樣子。包括之前有撥補240億，當時賴清德還沒選之前撥補了240億，從健保的準備金直接撥到健保基金。所以我要請問院長，今年有200億放在安全基金裡面，有沒有可能我們真正的撥補去處理點值的部分，真正的去改善健保的環境？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的推論嚴重的錯誤，我們會給你正確的數字……"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有錯誤，我數字觀念很清楚的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們給你正確的數字，再向您報告，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來登記第8號洪申翰委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","再接下來登記第9號，請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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針對低薪呢,院長這週要開會討論,我今天手邊就有一些資料,可以跟院長就教一下。 另外我要先補充啊,有41.9萬的人失業,8月的失業率已經提升到3.48。"},{"start":50.143,"end":70.438,"text":"11個月新高而且是連續3個月。 青年失業已經大於平均中高年的失業率是5倍。 這一點我要跟大家來討論一件事情。 今天我要提供一個資料來讓全國的青年來知道如何搶救低薪48000的工作只要辦這張。"},{"start":73.134,"end":73.274,"text":"是的。"},{"start":93.177,"end":120.173,"text":"請問一下這一個回覆是你要給全民的回覆嗎?衛福部給我的回函跟院長上週五給本席回答的根本是做的一套做的又不一套兩者啊我看到真的讓我覺得你們到底有沒有內部溝通啊你跟賴清德黨主席一樣是不是都是講一套做一套衛福部承認誠信祭司來自藥廠"},{"start":121.963,"end":137.353,"text":"更表示只要不處理二等輕的業務內容藥證就沒有關係你不覺得太扯嗎?已經證實他就是藥廠的孩子現在告訴我不處理二等輕就沒關係請問一下他來自藥廠"},{"start":138.51,"end":164.324,"text":"他的爸爸如果有藥廠的關係其他的朋友是藥廠有藥證的需求跟他爸爸請託他的孩子在藥廠藥證裡面就處理這樣的業務他會不會有協助?第二對於沒有這個藥廠的孩子在食藥署裡面的這些藥廠公平嗎?所以你給我的回函說只要這個孩子他不處理二等輕以內的業務就沒有關係是這樣嗎?"},{"start":165.956,"end":178.901,"text":"你的標準有這麼低?報告委員,我想我們有您的來訪的隨行的時候我們有完全去了解到你提的這幾項。部長回答我,這是不是你的回函?"},{"start":181.021,"end":205.529,"text":"你可以認同只要不處理二等親他藥廠的孩子就可以在裡面處理藥證嗎?因為你提的這一位其實在大概103年的以前就在工作我現在就抓出問題你認同嗎?當時他進來的時候不好意思時間有限我只問你認同嗎?不是在掌管這樣的業務啦院長你可以認同嗎?"},{"start":208.442,"end":235.75,"text":"回答不出來﹖不是﹖沒有掌管﹖來我再聽第2個案例﹖主管的業務﹖第2個案例你聽聽看﹖因為部長所說的﹖他在任用的時候﹖他並沒有這樣的身份﹖但是他現在是不是應該避嫌﹖對﹖對﹖民進黨現在在處理臨時案﹖都不用避嫌嗎﹖我認為部長要去了解一下﹖他現在聚在這個位置上面﹖對整個業務的推動﹖是不是會讓人家有不必要的想像﹖就是有不必要的想像﹖如果是這樣的話﹖他的爸爸是江蘇藥廠﹖"},{"start":237.31,"end":265.526,"text":"江蘇藥廠的主要負責人之一捏還是國內的廠商的之一捏來,第二個更扯林興副審查員他的學經歷完全不符合資格院長你知道這件事嗎?徵才資格裡面寫得清清楚楚要醫學、藥學相關的背景碩士學位你們任用給我的回函寫什麼?因為他有20年的國會經驗可以代替"},{"start":266.876,"end":285.477,"text":"這就是認證了我當時所說的你們任用的是所謂的綠色委員的助理來當副審查員。 到現在你還給我亂扯20年的國會經驗可以抵過所謂的碩士學位醫學背景。 我現在告訴你"},{"start":286.138,"end":304.719,"text":"只要有任何人只要他在醫院從事行政、數物甚至是20年以上的打掃經驗是不是就能夠跟醫學相關背景的這些年輕人來找同一份工作?你會不會覺得你的回答太扯這就是因為民進黨黨政給了他這個48000的工作嗎?"},{"start":308.611,"end":325.527,"text":"抱歉這個是黨政無關那你回答我為什麼20年的國會經驗可以在你的徵才資格沒有寫最後所謂的綠燈大開直接讓他任用好 報告委員這位是我有去問一下任用的"},{"start":327.708,"end":352.916,"text":"你講話真的很心虛啊部長你為了一個民進黨的助理講話越來越扯我覺得你有人事壓力既然已經調查完畢本席來看院長你有沒有跟本席手上掌握的資料是一致的第一個"},{"start":353.957,"end":367.336,"text":"請問一下,民進黨立委關說這個案子有沒有問過李明新主秘?有沒有問過?院長、部長有沒有問過?回答我有就沒有。不好意思,請問那個...有立委關說這個人事案有沒有問過?"},{"start":369.177,"end":389.076,"text":"我完全不知道,因為那個你說李明欣這個案的那個已經在103年,100之前的,是106年前。你姓傅審查員,是在今年6月24號所開出的人事任用徵才資格,是在你上任之後,你還在跟我扯103年!對對對,那你說的傅審查員那一位那個是,的確是"},{"start":389.916,"end":412.368,"text":"關切這個人事案的是不是劉姓跟陳姓立委我完全不知道有任何委員那個因為這個就是有署有署裡面就不敢承認啦來我再問第二個我第二個資料我保證我們都完全不知道林姓副審查員在面試的時候有一位非公職身份的人待在現場督導這一場面試那個人是誰你知不知道"},{"start":418.713,"end":443.895,"text":"因為他的資料越來越多,你再不承認。在他工作的那個署,那就有那一邊接,我這一邊沒有接。 也不知道。完全不知道。院長,第三個最後一個問題,回答我。七科組組長許昭凱,面試完以後,都資格不符。為什麼現在有人更改了這個許組長的批示?"},{"start":446.581,"end":454.89,"text":"回答我為什麼在面試官已經批示資格不符 現在去更改了這個批示"},{"start":458.995,"end":478.158,"text":"就是有這個現象我告訴你資格不符已經很明確你現在還給我回函說20年的國會經驗可以頂替一切你對得起全國人民你對得起全國青年嗎失業率越來越高青年求職不易我們要的是一個公平公正公開的一個有這麼難嗎院長部長回我回答我你要再鴉雀無聲了全國百姓都在看"},{"start":488.595,"end":488.755,"text":"合理嗎?"},{"start":518.936,"end":522.293,"text":"院長,你已經鴉雀無聲很久了,回答我好不好?"},{"start":523.484,"end":550.394,"text":"上次委員有垂詢到這樣的議題當時我是說請衛福部是不是在一個禮拜你要給你給你答覆他給你的答覆如果承認你手中所說的是這樣的內容那與事實是否有出入或是相符我要請部長再重新調查重新瞭解那這個調查不僅要答覆給後續相關的事務不僅要答覆給委員也要讓我清楚"},{"start":550.851,"end":577.145,"text":"另外,我要請問輸出役的問題。 上次我有提到三、五。 院長7月9號到現在已經100多天了。 有將近215萬袋的輸出役已經進入到各個醫療機構。 我想問你,生理食鹽水非屬必要藥品,所以就醫藥事法第55條,藥物樣品正品管理第二條第7款所稱的, 申請公共安全公共衛生重大災害使用者,"},{"start":577.645,"end":579.667,"text":"公共安全、公共衛生、重大災害"},{"start":599.861,"end":626.427,"text":"無從選擇啊都是相同的重要的事情啊都是相同重要我要跟院長說啊這個其實就是答不出來不好意思三者全無啊我們要看到到底為什麼三者全無公共安全重大災害都不對啊公共衛生是指申請預防整治如寄生蟲感染傳染性疾病等公共衛生需要請問這有傳染病嗎"},{"start":627.327,"end":652.997,"text":"公共安全、公共衛生怎麼可能是公共衛生呢?輸出疫在台灣有傳染性的疾病嗎?重大災害是什麼災害?委員給這三個選項設定前提當然會有輕重緩急之分如果沒有設定前提當然是重要的我給你最新的報告食藥署給我的答案這三個都不是是類推適用三者都不成立啊所以呢他們成立了一個新的說法"},{"start":653.757,"end":670.042,"text":"叫做類推適用,你們換了一個更扯的說法,原本依據藥事法第55條,現在類推適用是藥事法第27-2,必要藥品的短缺通報等登錄及專案核准製造輸入的一個辦法來做一個辦理。"},{"start":670.603,"end":683.718,"text":"來做一個依據 院長藥品只有分必要藥品跟非必要藥品但你們自創了一個法律用語臨床上具急迫必要性所以類推適用藥事法27條之二 院長什麼是類推適用"},{"start":684.733,"end":686.915,"text":"你們7月9日我質詢完,7月10日開記者會,要打我的臉"},{"start":706.394,"end":732.411,"text":"告訴大家是用前面三個公共安全、公共衛生或者是動大災害。好,現在私底下給我回函。食藥署並沒有官方的宣布並沒有發新聞稿跟社會大眾來報告,只有回復本席。全台灣只有食藥署跟我知道。是怕被大眾質疑你們現在改用了類推適用嗎?院長,類推適用只是適用於法律的漏洞。"},{"start":733.473,"end":734.174,"text":"你又在胡扯"},{"start":759.022,"end":787.246,"text":"你根本都在胡扯嘛!藥事法竟然將藥品分為必要藥品跟非必要藥品其中在衛福部明令公告的必要藥品當中清單裡面內的必要藥品就是在無法繼續製造輸入或不足供應的時候才可以現在其製造或輸入才可以排除第39條的一個限制適用藥事法規定27條之二第三項我們現在衛福部所訂定的一個辦法之一"},{"start":787.944,"end":803.47,"text":"而非必要藥品則不容許例外。 不容許例外!你們7月10號的記者會食藥署告訴大家生理食鹽水非必要之藥品不容許例外啊!"},{"start":804.807,"end":832.72,"text":"所以非屬必要的藥品的清單、生理食鹽水當然更不容許例外的產生我們的法就有明確有意的去做區分了各自來排除用來保障人民的安全當然非法律漏洞的時候自不得類推適用現在哪裡有漏洞所以我要送給院長三個扯無法源依據扯改類推適用扯不挺本土廠扯"},{"start":833.649,"end":855.924,"text":"你們那一天還跟我講更扯的是什麼沒有藥害基金的賠償使用生理食鹽水如果產生生命安全之疑慮要做什麼消保法來求償你以為今天用生理食鹽水是在逛百貨公司喔有沒有基點有沒有滿千送百消保法"},{"start":857.732,"end":858.393,"text":"講這什麼話?"},{"start":858.393,"end":874.751,"text":"院長你能夠同意用生理食鹽水產生問題嚴重影響到人民、國人安全的時候,用消防法嗎?是的,這個生理食鹽水是特定的需求的時候才會使用,它當然跟一般的消費是不一樣的。那基於健康的這個要求,我覺得"},{"start":875.885,"end":901.356,"text":"有一定程度的要求他的安全是絕對必要的。藥害基金確定不配,食藥署確定說要用消保法,太扯了。最後剩1分鐘我要告訴你,不挺本土場。我們去查過臺灣大總製藥、越南大總製藥、日本大總製藥,為什麼你們不給臺灣大總製藥來處理?第一,你們給予的健保支付的相對應根本不夠價格。"},{"start":902.981,"end":905.122,"text":"我記者會會繼續跟你追"},{"start":962.981,"end":970.087,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":68,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（14時47分）好，謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["羅委員廷瑋：邱部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩請衛福部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長好。院長，勞動部說月薪3.1萬屬於低薪，全國約有120萬名勞工。針對低薪院長這週要開會討論，我今天手邊就有些資料可以跟院長就教一下。另外，我要先補充，有41.9萬的人失業，8月的失業率已經提升到3.48，是11個月來的新高，而且是連續3個月。青年失業已經大於平均中高齡失業率的5倍，這一點我要跟大家來討論一件事情，今天我要提供一個資料讓全國的青年知道，如何搶救低薪？4萬8的工作只要辦這張，找工作，辦「民進黨黨證」，辦這張，就有辦法找到4萬8的工作。","院長，針對食藥署的人事案，你說倘若任用的資格不符標準，絕對是違法，以及如果跟首長有近親關係，絕對要避免，你有沒有說過？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請問一下，這一個回復是你要給全民的回復嗎？衛福部給我的回函，跟院長上週五回答本席的，根本是說的一套，做的又不同套，兩者，我看到真的讓我覺得你們到底有沒有內部溝通啊？你跟賴清德黨主席一樣，是不是都是講一套做一套？衛福部承認陳姓技師來自藥廠，更表示只要不處理二等親以內的業務內容、藥證，就沒有關係，你不覺得太扯嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請衛福部說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：已經證實他就是藥廠的孩子，現在告訴我不處理二等親以內的業務就沒關係，請問一下，他來自藥廠，他的爸爸如果有藥廠的關係，其他的朋友是藥廠的，有藥證的需求，跟他爸爸請託，他的孩子在裡面就在處理藥廠、藥證這樣的業務，他會不會協助？第二，對於沒有孩子在食藥署裡面的這些藥廠公平嗎？你給我的回函說，只要這個孩子不處理二等親以內的業務就沒有關係，是這樣嗎？你的標準有這麼低？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想您垂詢的時候，我們有完全去了解到你提的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，回答我，這是不是你的回函？你可以認同只要不處理二等親，藥廠的孩子就可以在裡面處理藥證嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為你提的這一位其實在大概103年以前就……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我不想聽前因後果，我現在就抓出問題，你認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為當時他進來的時候……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，時間有限，我只問你認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不是在掌管這樣的業務。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，你可以認同嗎？回答不出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是……"],["邱部長泰源：沒有掌管……他主管的業務……"],["羅委員廷瑋：第二個案例你聽聽……"],["卓院長榮泰：如部長所說的，他在任用的時候，他並沒有這樣的身分……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是他現在是不是應該避嫌？"],["卓院長榮泰：對、對……"],["羅委員廷瑋：民進黨現在處理人事案都不用避嫌嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為部長要去了解一下，他現在既然在這個位置上，面對整個業務的推動，是不是會讓人家有不必要的想像……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是有不必要的想像嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是這樣的話，那內部很多人……"],["羅委員廷瑋：他的爸爸是江蘇藥廠的主要負責人之一，還是國內的廠商之一耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：很多的工作是需要很多人來做的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：來，第二個更扯，林姓副審查員他的學經歷完全不符合資格，院長，你知道這件事嗎？徵才資格裡面寫得清清楚楚，要醫學、藥學相關的背景、碩士學位，你們任用，給我的回函寫什麼？因為他有20年的國會經驗可以代替。這就是認證了我當時所說的，你們任用的是所謂的綠色委員的助理來當副審查員，到現在你還給我亂扯20年的國會經驗，可以抵過所謂的碩士學位、醫學背景！我現在告訴你，只要有任何人在醫院從事行政庶務，甚至是20年以上的打掃經驗，是不是就能夠跟醫學相關背景的這些年輕人來找同一份工作？你會不會覺得你的回答太扯？這就是因為民進黨黨證給了他這個4萬8的工作嗎？部長、院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，這個跟黨證無關。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我回答一下……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你回答我，為什麼20年的國會經驗可以沒有寫在你的徵才資格，最後所謂的綠燈大開，直接讓他任用？"],["邱部長泰源：好，報告委員，我有去問一下任用這一位的署，他們當時徵才的時候當然是要選擇最適當的，後來因為這一位滿有經驗，因為就是在國會的一個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，你講話真的很心虛！部長，你為了一個民進黨的助理，講話越來越扯，我覺得你有人事壓力。既然已經調查完畢，本席來看院長你有沒有跟本席手上掌握的資料是一致的，第一個，請問一下，民進黨立委關說這個案子有沒有問過李明鑫主秘，有沒有問過？院長、部長，有沒有問過？回答我有還是沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，請問……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有立委關說這個人事案，有沒有問過？"],["邱部長泰源：我完全不知道……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不清楚？"],["邱部長泰源：因為你說李明鑫那案已經在103年之前……"],["羅委員廷瑋：林姓副審查員是在今年6月24號所開出的人事任用徵才資格，是在你上任之後，你還在跟我扯103年！"],["邱部長泰源：對、對、對，你說的副審查委員那一位的確是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：關切這個人事案的是不是劉姓跟陳姓立委？"],["邱部長泰源：我完全不知道有任何委員……因為這個就是由署裡面……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你不敢承認啦！來，我再問第二個……"],["邱部長泰源：我保證我們都完全不知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：林姓副審查員在面試的時候，有一位非公職身分的人待在現場督導這一場面試，那個人是誰？你知不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：因為他……"],["羅委員廷瑋：資料越來越多，你再不承認！"],["邱部長泰源：在他工作的那個署，就由那邊……我這邊沒有……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：完全不知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，第三個，最後一個問題，回答我，企科組組長許朝凱面試完以後勾資格不符，為什麼現在有人更改了這個許組長的批示？回答我！"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們去……如果……"],["羅委員廷瑋：為什麼面試官已經批示資格不符，現在去更改了這個批示？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有這個現象，我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是有這個現象！我告訴你，資格不符已經很明確，你現在還給我回函說20年的國會經驗可以頂替一切，你對得起全國人民、你對得起全國青年嗎？失業率越來越高，青年求職不易，我們要的是一個公平、公正、公開有這麼難嗎？院長、部長，回答我。"],["邱部長泰源：我們絕對是公開徵選啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：不要再鴉雀無聲了，全國百姓都在看！本席要詢問的很簡單，社會的弱勢，沒有良好背景家庭的孩子，在求職上能夠有一個公平，不要輸在起跑點，你們告訴全國百姓青年，認真讀書也有機會出頭天，但是今天認真讀書符合相關徵才資格，就因為忘記辦理黨證，他輸在起跑點，變成這一場求職的「陪讀」，合理嗎？院長，你已經鴉雀無聲很久了，回答我好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：上次委員有垂詢到這樣的議題，當時我說請衛福部是不是在一個禮拜以內要給您答復，他給您的答復如果誠如你手中所說是這樣的內容，與事實是否有出入或是相符，我要請部長再重新調查、重新瞭解。至於這個調查，我們會儘量答復給……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們會持續追蹤後續相關的事務。"],["卓院長榮泰：不僅要答復給委員，也要讓我清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：另外，我要請問輸出液的問題，上次我有提到「三無」，院長，7月9號到現在已經一百多天了，有將近215萬袋的輸出液已經進入到各個醫療機構。我想問你，生理食鹽水非屬必要藥品，所以就依藥事法第五十五條及藥物樣品贈品管理辦法第二條第七款所稱的「申請供公共安全或公共衛生或重大災害之用者」之依據予以核准，這個法律論述還高掛在食藥署的官網。院長，我想請問一下，公共安全、公共衛生以及重大災害這三個，請院長三選一，請問是符合哪一項？"],["卓院長榮泰：公共安全、公共衛生、重大災害這無從選擇啊，都是相同重要的事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都是相同重要，我要跟院長說，這個其實就是答不出來，不好意思，三者全無啊！我們要看到底為什麼三者全無？公共安全、重大災害都不對啊，公共衛生是指申請預防整治，如寄生蟲感染、傳染性疾病等公共衛生需要，請問這有傳染病嗎？公共安全、公共衛生怎麼可能是公共衛生呢？輸出液在臺灣有傳染性的疾病嗎？重大災害是什麼災害？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員給這三個選項有設定前提，那當然會有輕重緩急之分，如果沒有設定前提，當然是重要的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，我給你最新的報告，食藥署給我的答案這三個都不是，是「類推適用」，三者都不成立，所以他們成立了一個新的說法，叫做「類推適用」，你們換了一個更扯的說法。原本依據藥事法第五十五條，現在類推適用藥事法第二十七條之二必要藥品的短缺通報等登錄及專案核准製造輸入的一個辦法，用這個來辦理，來做一個依據。","院長，藥品只有分必要藥品跟非必要藥品，但你們自創一個法律用語，臨床上具急迫必要性，所以類推適用藥事法第二十七條之二，院長，什麼是類推適用？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長答復一下，你們的答復是什麼內容？"],["邱部長泰源：首先跟委員報告……"],["羅委員廷瑋：什麼是類推適用？"],["邱部長泰源：類推適用適法性，其實在相關的法令裡面，我們也經過相關法律的諮詢，是沒有問題的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：7月9號我質詢完，你們7月10號開記者會要打我的臉，告訴大家是用前面三個公共安全、公共衛生或者是重大災害，但現在呢？私底下給我回函，食藥署並沒有官方的宣布，並沒有發新聞稿跟社會大眾來報告，只有回復本席，全臺灣只有食藥署跟我知道，這是怕被大眾質疑你們現在改用了類推適用嗎？院長，類推適用只適用於法律的漏洞存在的時候，我想問你，請問藥事法有漏洞嗎？是在哪一條？第五十五條、第二十七條之二還是第三十九條？部長，你可以救他。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們應該是用第六十二條，我看一下……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你又在胡扯，你又在胡扯，你根本都在胡扯嘛！藥事法既然將藥品分為必要藥品跟非必要藥品，其中在衛福部明令公告的必要藥品當中，清單內的必要藥品，就是在無法繼續製造輸入或不足供應的時候才可以排除第三十九條的限制，適用藥事法規定的第二十七條之二第三項。現在衛福部所訂定的辦法之一，非必要藥品則不容許例外。你們7月10號的記者會，食藥署告訴大家，生理食鹽水非必要之藥品，不容許例外。所以非屬必要藥品的清單──生理食鹽水當然更不容許例外的產生；我們的法就明確、有意的去做區分、各自排除，用來保障人民的安全。","當然，非法律漏洞時，自不得類推適用，現在哪裡有漏洞？所以我要送給院長三個「扯」，無法源依據，扯！改類推適用，扯！不挺本土廠，扯！你們那天還跟我講了更扯的是什麼？沒有藥害基金的賠償，使用生理食鹽水如果產生生命安全之疑慮，要做什麼？依消保法來求償。你以為今天用生理食鹽水是在逛百貨公司？有沒有積點？有沒有滿千送百？用消保法！講這什麼話！院長，你能夠同意使用生理食鹽水產生問題、嚴重影響到國人安全的時候用消保法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，生理食鹽水是特定需求時才會使用，當然跟一般消費是不一樣的，基於健康的要求，我覺得一定程度要求它的安全是絕對必要的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：藥害基金確定不賠，食藥署確定要用消保法，太扯了！","最後剩1分鐘，我要告訴你，不挺本土廠，我們去查過臺灣大塚製藥、越南大塚製藥、日本大塚製藥，為什麼你們不給臺灣大塚製藥來處理？你們給予的相對應的健保支付根本不夠價格，賠錢的生意沒有人做，砍頭生意有人做，但是你們卻花大筆的錢到越南進口，為什麼？7家進口商裡面有一家叫做韋淳，這家韋淳進口商還擁有立法院的出入證，本席就曾經看過啊！這中間到底有什麼貓膩？說清楚、講明白！我記者會會再繼續跟你追。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們在處理的過程絕對沒有任何……完全是考慮怎麼樣趕快來治療人民的健康，而且儘量尋求法律的立足點，請委員放心，如果委員有疑惑，我們很願意誠懇的跟委員說明。"],["主席：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請衛福部公開向社會說明這件事情，不要引起誤會，如果有必要，要全力的澄清。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我代表全國人民拜託，這件事情一定要慎查。"],["邱部長泰源：一定要的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不只是人事、不只是藥害基金的賠償。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅廷瑋委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","跟院會報告，現在在我們二樓議場旁聽貴賓席的是美國國會助理訪問團，歡迎參觀我們立法院。Welcome everybody！Welcome！","接下來登記第6號范雲委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員范雲書面質詢：","案由：本院委員范雲，就現行第一線接觸兒少之工作者管制不足，造成曾有侵害兒少權益相關事件之工作者或不熟稔兒童權利之工作者，仍能持續接觸兒少並造成其傷害之現況；要求衛生福利部評估研議於《兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》修法中納入「兒少工作證」相關規定與執行機制。特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、我國現有針對第一線接觸兒少之工作者相關管制，以各主管機關及相關法規之「不適任資料庫」為主軸，惟查資料庫雖包括「教育部不適任教育人員資料庫」、「涉性別事件之學校不適任人員資料庫」、「短期補習班不適任人員資料庫」、「兒童課後照顧服務不適任人員資料庫」、「全國教保服務機構不適任人員資料庫」、「兒少性剝削或性騷擾防治受行政處罰者之資料庫」等多種，然仍有未能建置資料庫或法規有所不及之範疇，如夏令營、家長合資自聘之運動教練、各單位主辦之兒少講座活動等，其中接觸兒少之工作者均未能有任何檢核或把關機制。","二、本席曾於今（113）年6月11日總質詢行政院，請卓榮泰院長發揮「創新行動內閣」的創新精神，參考澳洲行之有年的「兒童工作證」制度，要求從事兒少工作者主動提出證明，使主辦單位或家長得以知悉。當時卓院長認同該議題重要性，後續由教育部於8月率先辦理「從事兒少工作人員認識兒少權利增能研習計畫」。","三、惟相關研習增能僅係「兒少工作證」制度之其中一部分，關鍵點仍是評估研議發證規範、機制建置、與現有各不適任資料庫競合關係等面向。考量實施該制度宜有明確法源依據較為妥適，並因涉及所有兒少權益，宜將相關條文制定於現正由衛生福利部研修之《兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》草案中。","四、爰請行政院會同衛生福利部相關單位，著手進行評估及研議工作；並請考量於《兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》修正草案尚未修正前，先以行政獎勵或補助等方式進行試辦計畫。","五、綜上，前開說明及相關事項，敬請於一個月內回覆書面報告。"],["主席：再接下來，請登記第7位李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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所以我看了根據健保署的統計,只要國人減少一次就醫的情況,一年可以省下378億點,大約可以為健保省下340億元。"},{"start":632.363,"end":655.176,"text":"國人只要願意稍微改變一下觀念﹖就可以為自身的健康自己共同負責﹖對於節省珍貴的健保支援也是有顯著的幫助﹖當國家在想辦法來拯救這個健保的時候﹖通常有時候會用搶人民荷包的感覺﹖漲健保費在拯救的整個健保﹖"},{"start":655.496,"end":655.656,"text":"部長,你同意嗎?"},{"start":672.08,"end":697.632,"text":"報告委員我非常同意我們一定要推廣self care這種自我照顧這種風氣這也是世界的潮流那政府在這方面也一直努力在推展同時也協助在自我照顧當中總是要有資源當然有包括我們的不管是試癌篩檢、成人健檢還有很多社區的一個服務都是在自我照顧裡面幫助"},{"start":699.733,"end":701.333,"text":"我相信你上臺之後"},{"start":719.538,"end":741.331,"text":"對於健保改革這個問題我相信你也很頭痛啦光是最近正義不修的點子到底要0.95還是要一塊錢其實都已經左右為難了嘛所以本席認為為了解決健保的虧損還有健保的資源的濫用我們是不是先從民眾的自我照顧這個概念開始宣導然後這個政策最主要就是要品轉類"},{"start":742.772,"end":771.346,"text":"將部分的藥,安全無虞的藥品由處方藥轉為指示用藥,並加速指示藥退出健保。所以我剛才講這些就是想說要延伸一個跟自我照護的議題,比較非必要醫生的處方藥應該轉類為指示用藥的問題,像緊急事後避孕藥轉類為指示藥的問題。那部長我想你自己本身是醫生嘛,我相信你知道服用事後避孕藥的時間是不是越快越好呢?"},{"start":774.189,"end":795.965,"text":"是不是呢?謝謝委員,我想那個...最好是在72小時之內,12小時是黃金的時間,是不是呢?對,剛剛講的只是用藥、處方藥,這一個方向我想一直在溝通跟前進,這個我想委員也應該很清楚,那任何一個藥物的使用一定都要跟"},{"start":796.545,"end":812.472,"text":"我們所謂的藥界的專家一切的相關一切的專家共同來評估因為站在一定要站在當然剛剛有時效也是一種考慮效果也是一種考慮還有最重要是站在人民"},{"start":815.493,"end":834.299,"text":"請問一下如果緊急病醫藥現在還要到醫療院所去開然後醫療院所又放假又休整那無法拿藥那民眾平日要下班時間還是額外的請假那才能取到這個用藥那對民眾來說其實是非常的不方便的無法及時順利的解決民眾需要用藥急迫性的問題"},{"start":835.299,"end":839.243,"text":"所以衛福部是不是要來檢討藥品轉類的問題呢而且根據我了解指示藥品及成藥製藥小組就曾經開過這個會然後來討論過將緊急事後必用藥從醫生處方轉類為指示用藥但是根據本席了解這一個會議中有做成了會議結論"},{"start":854.139,"end":859.765,"text":"但是為什麼食藥署10月19日被問卻說跟媒體講說醫師團體等專家評估暫無共識呢?那請問部長為什麼我們衛福部的政策擱到現在還沒有共識呢?為什麼現在還沒共識啊?還是早就有共識?還是根本就是你們衛福部裡面的高層有人不同意呢?拜託部長你身為醫生啊"},{"start":876.622,"end":894.553,"text":"你醫者人心啊拜託千萬你不要讓女性的生育的自主權被剝奪了政府現在都在營造友善的生育的環境怎麼讓女性能夠安心且自由選擇何時懷孕這應該是政府的重要的責任啊可以盡快召開會議討論嗎"},{"start":896.755,"end":923.288,"text":"好,因為這個涉及的層面比較廣泛,社會各界意見也比較分歧,所以我們會趕快再持續來溝通。對啊,你先看一下嘛,現在先進國家幾乎都是變成指示用藥啦,而且他們將緊急事後冰藥,這種是沒有,就是已經是非常安全的藥品了。這早就要轉成指示用藥了嘛,怎麼還要到診所去開呢?診所都休息,這個又有"},{"start":924.108,"end":937.259,"text":"急迫性的我覺得這個齁應該是真的是要回去研議一下是的我們會趕快持續來溝通部長你可以一個月內開會討論嗎請衛福部務必要給本席一個正面的答案我們盡快討論盡快開會討論"},{"start":940.202,"end":954.135,"text":"部長你身為醫生你認為當初以前的台灣實施的醫藥分業的精神是什麼?現在是不是在民眾的醫療上是不是都各扮演了一個角色呢?醫生診斷、藥師用藥、拿藥是不是這樣呢?因為現在醫藥分業還是在藕斷絲綠"},{"start":973.047,"end":975.24,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝林憶君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（14時31分）請卓院長及邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢，也請邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：院長，你親自身兼我們花蓮0403地震專案小組的召集人，請問目前投入花蓮0403震災復原重建方案大概285.5億的重建經費是來自哪裡呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當時從賑災基金會以及其他預算上面挪支出來。"],["林委員憶君：是從公務預算、特種基金和第二預備金，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["林委員憶君：再請問院長，對於非屬公務預算項目可以支應的部分，是由哪裡哪一個單位負責支應呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：非屬公務預算的……"],["林委員憶君：是不是由賑災基金會負責？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果你是指……賑災有一筆預算專門在做一些補助、救濟等等，這是有的。"],["林委員憶君：我再請教部長，部長，賑災基金會是行政院在民國90年動用第二預備金成立的，對吧？它是不是屬於衛福部轄下的公設財團法人，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，是的。"],["林委員憶君：這樣的話，賑災基金會到底是誰可以管呢？誰可以監督和了解這個單位善款經費的使用情況呢？是不是衛福部？"],["邱部長泰源：當然衛福部要審慎地使用，應該是行政院在督導。"],["林委員憶君：我們從0403地震開始就不斷地在發文，為了賑災基金會的權責，還有請相關部會提供一些資料，但是大家都回文互踢皮球，然後大家都說跟他們沒有關係、都不是他們主管的，我覺得這真的是太離譜了啦！","所以我想請教衛福部部長，賑災基金會長期是以賑濟災民為主要業務，在莫拉克風災、高雄美濃地震、八仙塵爆等重大災害中都曾經協助災民，所以今年主要的專案執行是針對0403花蓮震災募款專案，受到行政院的協調來辦理專案募款，將全數用在災民的災害援助、緊急醫療、收容安置、復原重建等四大項目，是不是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["林委員憶君：但是我們花蓮災民都在反映，災情到現在已經半年了，但是他們對於所有相關資訊都還是一無所知，包括經費要到哪裡申請，還有申請的資訊完全不清楚，常常到處問、到處陳情才知道。還有重點是，從花蓮發生0403開始到現在已經半年了，結果在賑災基金會官方網站上面要查詢這整個募款專案的捐款執行使用流向時，竟然什麼資訊都查不到！甚至想要查這個基金會其他年度和重大災害募款執行的帳務細節時，裡面的資訊也不是非常清楚、也不是很透明，這樣是不是有點太離譜了呢？而且衛福部身為賑災基金會的主管機關，是不是太不負責任了？難道因為現在的董事長是前部長、是政務委員，所以不敢管嗎？是這個樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我建議賑災基金會後面用這幾個字來形容，對在裡面工作的人實在是不當、不宜，他們都很辛苦在做，如果當中有一些或少數或多少的個案，目前整個賑災基金會或是整個重建辦公室的執行過程當中，有效率不及的地方，請委員告訴我們，我們一一地來處理……"],["林委員憶君：因為賑災基金會也是針對災民嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是賑災基金會這樣地對他們是……我覺得……"],["林委員憶君：我知道他們很辛苦……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["林委員憶君：但是我們要知道他們做什麼啊！大家捐款的是人家的善款，這些用在哪裡，這些細節我們要知道啊！然後我們要知道這一點，難道都不行嗎？而且這是人民的錢耶！針對這次0403地震重建的捐款，賑災基金會到底有哪些補助的計畫項目還有申請的程序，是不是全部要透明公開呢？而且這些善款用在哪裡？究竟是誰說了算，還有為什麼沒有辦法提供這些資料，無法第一時間說清楚這個善款的用途，我們都沒有申請到，你們是藐視國會、欺負國會議員嗎？還是善款流向有貓膩呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，0403花蓮賑災收到的捐款、募款大概有16億，目前將全數用在災民的救援、緊急醫療等等上面，那不是誰說了算，一定有一套標準，我們從各項的補助、傷亡的補助等等都有一定的標準，不是誰說了算，這是一個制度上的問題。"],["林委員憶君：對，但是我們想要了解這個細節嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員憶君：因為你們都還不是讓人很清楚地、公開透明地讓大家知道人民的捐款用在什麼地方，而且還有一點，花蓮人需要救災、需要救命，政府不是說沒錢，不然就是經費不夠，本席有發現，我們知道賑災就像剛才院長說的是非常地辛苦，沒錯，但是為什麼一個單純負責賑災、救災的基金會，其主管可以爽領高薪，年薪超過幾百萬？而且光執行長的月薪就超過十萬元了，就連現在進口的超思雞蛋發生弊案的畜產會，他們一級單位主管的平均月薪也沒有超過十萬元以上，這對災民是多麼諷刺啊！院長、部長，賑災基金會竟然這樣大剌剌地用政府、用大家捐款的善款、用災民的救命錢、用災難錢在爽領高薪，這樣會公平嗎？這樣合理嗎？這樣的社會觀感會好嗎？那不是養肥貓，怎麼樣才是養肥貓？賑災基金會是不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這幾位你口中所說的執行長，他的敘薪不是今天發生，也不是上個禮拜發生，長期以來，他有一套人事進用的方式，也有一套敘薪的標準，這個在政府裡面都有，所以他不是說特別養了哪一個人，你特別把他稱作肥貓，我是非常不願意用這樣的字眼來形容，但是委員說的……"],["林委員憶君：那他就要盡他的責任啊！然後衛福部是監督的吧……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一位人經過認定的標準跟敘薪的標準，在這個位置上他沒有做好這件工作，我們當然從行政、從司法上面都可以來做處分調查，而不是哪一個人坐在這裡，就會變成這樣的定義，那對所有的人，尤其在這裡工作的人是不公平的。"],["林委員憶君：因為我覺得他領這樣的薪水，但是他所做的事情，我想院長也知道，當時到花蓮去的時候，我也說你們網站上面根本任何一個資料都查不到嘛，當然在我們的陸續的干涉、監督之下，你們也陸續公布了，但是現在整個情況還是不夠公開透明，所以針對這個，我想院長你是0403花蓮地震的召集人……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們來檢討，該清楚地向社會公布……制度應該公布，至於補助給誰、若干隱私的部分應該要保障，如果這樣的情況底下，應該要把資訊做必要程度的公開，這個也是賑災基金會本身獲得公信力的一個方式。"],["林委員憶君：是啊！人民捐的善款真的是需要直接全部專款專用，而且要用在花蓮災民的身上。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["林委員憶君：是不是應該要明確公開給花蓮災民還有全國捐款的民眾知道呢？所以我覺得你們可能要回去再監督一下，畢竟我剛才也講了，爽領高薪還是要做好自己的工作。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝，希望委員多給鼓勵，該檢討的地方我們一定檢討，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：希望院長和部長務必要重新檢視勸募條件還有捐款的機制，以避免大家愛心遭到不合理還有不法的濫用，這樣以後大家才能相信政府，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：接下來我要問一下小小病自我藥療的概念，落實到大病到醫院、小症狀到藥局的分級醫療概念，在國外自我照顧本來就是一個很廣泛而且非常正確的觀念，民眾在身體不舒服的時候，只要到附近的社區藥局，透過藥師的協助購買成藥還有指示用藥來緩解症狀或評估是否就醫，其實這也是這幾年隨著先進國家推廣的國民健康政策，所以在保障用藥安全的前提下，推動自我照顧的觀念，對健保而言更是減少醫療費用的支出，並節省了需要費時就醫看診的社會成本，其實這個是現在國際醫療的趨勢，早已經把自我藥療列為重要的衛生政策。根據健保署的統計，只要國人減少一次就醫的情況，一年可以省下378億點，大約可以為健保省下340億元，國人只要願意稍微改變一下觀念，就可以為自身的健康自己共同負責，對於節省珍貴的健保資源也是有顯著的幫助。","當國家在想方法來拯救整個健保的時候，通常有時候會有搶人民荷包的感覺，漲健保費在拯救整個健保，但是自我照顧，我覺得是根本解決健保體質的解方之一，所以我覺得我們應該要學習先進國家推廣國民健康政策，提升自我照顧的觀念，部長，你同意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我非常同意我們一定要推廣自我照顧（Self-Care）的風氣，這也是世界的潮流，政府在這方面也一直努力推展，同時也協助在自我照顧當中總是要有的資源，當然也包括不管是四癌篩檢、成人健檢，還有很多的社區服務都是在自我照顧裡面，幫助我們民眾來給他們Self-Care。"],["林委員憶君：剛才部長有講說那是我們政府要推動，沒錯！我查了一個資料，10年前衛福部就已經發了一個新聞稿表示，103年的時候要強力推動自我藥療，結果10年了，現在一點成果也沒有，部長，我相信你上臺之後，對於健保改革的問題，我相信你也很頭痛，光是最近爭議不休的點值到底要0.95還是要1塊錢，其實都已經左右為難了嘛！所以本席認為，為了解決健保的虧損還有健保資源的濫用，我們是不是先從民眾自我照顧的概念開始宣導？而這個政策最主要就是藥品轉類，將部分安全無虞的藥品由處方藥轉為指示用藥，並加速指示藥退出健保。我剛才講這些就是想要延伸一個跟自我照顧議題、比較非必要醫生的處方藥應該轉類為指示用藥的問題，像緊急事後避孕藥轉類為指示藥的問題。部長，我想你自己本身是醫生，我相信你知道服用事後避孕藥的時間是不是越快越好呢？是不是呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，我想那個……"],["林委員憶君：最好是在72小時之內，12小時是黃金時間，是不是呢？"],["邱部長泰源：對，剛剛講的指示用藥、處方藥，這一個方向我想一直在溝通跟前進，我想委員也應該很清楚，任何一個藥物的使用一定都要跟所謂藥界的專家、醫界的專家共同……"],["林委員憶君：這個我剛才已經講過了，自我藥療……"],["邱部長泰源：共同來評估，因為一定要站在……當然你剛剛說的時效也是一種考慮、效果也是一種考慮，還有最重要是站在人民的立場，怎麼樣讓他最快得到健康的照顧。"],["林委員憶君：部長，請問一下，如果緊急避孕藥現在還要到醫療院所去開，然後醫療院所又放假、又休診而無法拿藥，民眾平日要下班時間還是額外的請假才能取到這個用藥，對民眾來說其實是非常不方便的，無法及時、順利地解決民眾需要用藥的急迫性問題，所以衛福部是不是要來檢討藥品轉類的問題呢？而且根據我的了解，指示藥品及成藥諮議小組就曾經開過這個會，討論過將緊急事後避孕藥從醫生處方轉類為指示用藥。但根據本席的了解，這一個會議中有做成了會議結論，但是為什麼食藥署10月19號被問時卻跟媒體講說，醫師團體等專家評估暫無共識。請問部長，為什麼衛福部的政策擱到現在還沒有共識呢？為什麼現在還沒共識，還是早就有共識？還是根本就是你們衛福部裡面的高層有人不同意呢？拜託部長，你身為醫生，醫者仁心，拜託！你千萬不要讓女性生育的自主權被剝奪了，政府現在都在營造友善的生育環境，怎麼樣讓女性能夠安心且自由選擇何時懷孕，這應該是政府重要的責任，可以儘快召開會議討論嗎？你是不是可以回去……"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個涉及的層面比較廣泛，社會各界的意見也比較分歧，所以我們會趕快再持續來溝通、評估。"],["林委員憶君：對啊，你現在看一下，現在先進國家幾乎都是變成指示用藥了，而且緊急事後避孕藥這種已經是非常安全的藥品了，早就要轉成指示用藥了，怎麼還要到診所去開呢？診所都休息，這個又有急迫性，我覺得這個真的應該要回去研議一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的，我們會趕快持續來溝通、評估。"],["林委員憶君：部長，你可以一個月內開會討論嗎？請衛福部務必要給本席一個正面的答復。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們儘快開會討論。"],["林委員憶君：部長，你身為醫生，你認為以前臺灣實施的醫藥分業精神是什麼？現在在民眾的醫療上，是不是都各自扮演了一個角色呢？醫生診斷，藥師用藥、拿藥，是不是這樣呢？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想……"],["林委員憶君：因為現在醫藥分業還是藕斷絲連。"],["邱部長泰源：我們臺灣……"],["林委員憶君：沒有讓醫生和藥師的專業完全放在正確的位置上。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定把各個專業放到最適當的位置上，共同來照顧人民的健康。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長、謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在2樓的是遠從彰化縣芳苑鄉來我們立法院參觀的新寶國民小學的同學，歡迎！我們國家未來的主人翁，加油！","接下來我們請登記第5號羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長好部長好 院長質詢期間總質詢期間辛苦你們了不會的 院長當初蔡政府要開放萊豬進口的時候當時有66%的民意因為食安的疑慮他是反對的但是因為那時候有國會的優勢所以還是闖過關了所以這個部分程度可以說明民進黨想推動什麼法案大概就會去過什麼樣的法案"},{"start":46.782,"end":74.41,"text":"所謂的社會共識大概只有在這個不想推動什麼法案的時候就會一直講沒有社會共識沒有社會共識那為什麼我要這樣說呢以代孕法案來說三次國家的民調平均有六成的民眾是贊成的兩成的不反對就是有八成的民意基礎但是近日幾位民進黨立委在委員會質詢的時候還是說沒有共識所以我這裡要請教部長"},{"start":75.33,"end":80.516,"text":"如果要做最近的例子來看,我覺得成立運動部的共識是很高的。 我們一直以這個當作"},{"start":93.608,"end":108.602,"text":"國會跟立法院以及全社會來做合作的一個很好的典範跟例子這是一個很高的共識那至於說當初美國來租的問題那是因為我們有科學的根據用國際的標準也保障大家安全的前提"},{"start":108.882,"end":109.883,"text":"請問院長,您知道這段話出自何人嗎?"},{"start":140.267,"end":147.263,"text":"請委員指教 我不知道這段話是什麼那你認同這段話嗎我基本上是認同的"},{"start":149.758,"end":172.646,"text":"院長這是賴清德立委在2020年提出的代孕人工生殖法案這個草案的提案說明謝謝你剛好也是認同的但是很遺憾5年後2007年人工生殖法僅僅包含的捐精捐卵還是排除了代孕迄今20幾年那當時的賴清德立委現在已經是賴清德總統了今年國宴520"},{"start":173.886,"end":174.387,"text":"報告委員﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":200.152,"end":219.571,"text":"總統有告訴過我當時國務院那一天你們講話的那個場景他也認為說在事實的情況底下臺灣社會已經朝向更開放更先進步更多元的時代是可以研究的像人工生殖跟代理孕母這兩個議題"},{"start":220.691,"end":221.432,"text":"請問院長您支持衛福部的版本嗎?"},{"start":240.759,"end":242.982,"text":"我們已經在7月13日結束議告期,我們有開了大概十幾次的專家會議。"},{"start":256.357,"end":261.602,"text":"為什麼我覺得院長態度很重要,院長其實多年來每次衛福部都有提出代孕的修法,但是都被行政院性平衛的委員連署反對。"},{"start":281.261,"end":283.342,"text":"今年3月長期擔任性評會委員的黃淑英"},{"start":305.123,"end":333.314,"text":"在姓名會的會期會封殺代孕這個議程,他不讓代孕進入議程討論。他近期告訴人家說代孕是寄予別人的子宮。我很想回他,你有種、有本事、有膽,你就這樣等待器官捐贈人說,你們在寄予別人的器官。院長我要講的是,與行政院的姓名會那也長期聘了這幾位態度偏激、心理變態的委員呢?"},{"start":336.06,"end":362.225,"text":"議員長,20多年來,代孕經歷多好公開的討論,兩次公民會議,三次國家民調,超過10次的公聽會,無數場的專家會議,還有委託大學做研究計畫,它所有的結論都不是5比5,幾乎都是一面倒的支持代孕解禁,這都是政府機關辦的,請問政府機關辦的有沒有公信力?議員長,有沒有公信力?請委員理解,政府所有的"},{"start":363.021,"end":363.421,"text":"幾位姓評會的委員"},{"start":378.577,"end":400.499,"text":"憑什麼否決八成民意?憑什麼用個人的意識形態來扼殺不孕病人的一線生機?所以我想請教院長,您基本上您的態度是非常重要,是您在當家還是姓平會在當家?姓平會當然是院內的一個委員會一個組織,那所有的決議"},{"start":402.749,"end":424.094,"text":"行政院有自己政策上的目標跟決定因為您上次回答我是人民在當家我已經告訴你民意如此這個是有證據可考察的然後我可以告訴你一些內幕林全在當院長的時候這個性別非常的囂張一直都很囂張的他很忍耐聽了幾個小時蘇院長主持了一次以後他說不用再召開了"},{"start":425.414,"end":442.319,"text":"賴院長主持會曾經公開講說,你們記好你們的角色,你們是質疑委員。 院長你剛剛也提出了,這些人是質疑委員,不是決策委員。 是的是憲平會在統治臺灣嗎?還是您在治理臺灣?是賴總統在治理臺灣?"},{"start":442.319,"end":444.54,"text":"院長我要你拿出魄力"},{"start":445.956,"end":466.215,"text":"不要讓姓平慧爬到你的頭上去國家有國家的立場姓平慧不是太像我們機關那因為您是召集人嘛您是召集人部長您是委員喔如果人工生技法案這次再進到姓平慧他們又反對了那你們要不要捍衛部長您要不要捍衛你的版本院長您要不要捍衛政府的版本你要不要捍衛"},{"start":469.01,"end":497.449,"text":"我一定會說明我們版本的他的意義以及他考量以及到妹妹聚到照顧到兒童小孩的潛力照顧到母親你不捍衛你還當什麼部長對不對新民委員如果有過去的疑問我想我們會用現在的專業跟現在的發展來回覆希望能夠取得理解那麼有新發生的問題我們共同來討論一個解決的方式人類社會行為已經很久執政者有意為為自己的政策辯護嗎"},{"start":498.45,"end":500.811,"text":"我已經告訴你有幾個變態的委員在裡面阿講了那些不像話的人 不像話的話阿"},{"start":529.537,"end":551.14,"text":"委員長,為代孕做辯護,我資料都幫您準備好了。衛生署、國健署共兩次公民會議,得到非常積極正面的結論,是積極正面,不是無比於我。國健署三次全國性民調,等一下我會給你看,壓倒性的支持。另外還有一份是,這個是民國88年,衛生署研究報告,主持人是婦產科全衛,他現在還在照顧病人,叫曾啟瑞教授。"},{"start":551.981,"end":560.935,"text":"主題是《代理孕母國際現況分析》,研究結論是這樣的,長期以來我們從宗教、倫理、女權、法律各個觀點來不斷地爭辯,但是我們經常忽略主角本身。"},{"start":561.98,"end":581.392,"text":"委託夫妻和代理孕母夫妻禁止不等於不會發生禁止不等於不會發生尤其代理孕母她本質並非本質為惡的行為在禁止的情況下只會使當事人在沒有保障的情況下秘密進行代理孕母的行為這對當事人跟他的子女都不會更有利的我也偷跑過啊"},{"start":583.517,"end":602.784,"text":"請記得這個是衛生署的研究計畫所出的結論。好,再下一張也是,民國99年衛生署還有個研究主題,世界各國代孕升值政策討論。結論很清楚,代孕增值已久,當初開始推動代孕的不孕者經歷這麼多年以難享有代孕政策開放的果實。這講的就是我啦,陳昭姿啦。"},{"start":604.585,"end":607.207,"text":"我們繼續看本研究的結論,他說我國人民結婚年齡不斷延後,不育人口逐漸增加,十幾年前就是發現。"},{"start":622.415,"end":635.039,"text":"大運需求與日俱增,開放大運已成為世界潮流,希望本研究的成果有助於大運法規的及早的訂定跟施行,讓博運附近能享有現代生殖科技帶來的喜悅。 院長這是99年,現在是83年,你對餒。"},{"start":640.612,"end":667.001,"text":"院長反對這30多年來,論述都一樣,只稱這是剝削女性這個物化子宮。 他們一直用臆測沒有發生的事情來扼殺真實存在的不孕夫妻的一線生機。 從衛生署到衛福部都研究了各國的政策。 他們去拿印度會發生事情來累推台灣。 我請教院長,你覺得我們國家的法規會比較走歐美的方向,歐美國家方向,還是去學習印度呢?"},{"start":668.462,"end":684.607,"text":"您覺得您的政策?我們要學習是進步但適合我國情的。我們適合印度嗎?我們是適合歐美國家還是印度?看什麼法規啊?有!我們還有可以向印度學習的喔?我還不知道有這種事情。印度的軟體就很盡情。"},{"start":686.107,"end":706.369,"text":"我要告訴院長,這份報告的協同主任叫做林智傑教授,他是非常優秀的法律學者,也是貴黨的同志,我很慶幸他成為本屆的信憑會委員。希望院長好好拜讀他的研究,也希望政府用科學、用法律來擺脫那群有被害妄想症的女人,尤其自認為是女權主義者。"},{"start":708.362,"end":729.217,"text":"邱部長,衛福部的草案已經擬了一段時間,收集了一堆意見,你也承認它跟過去的想法都一樣,可是這幾十年來醫學在進步,民情更開放啊。反對者同一套論述啊,就是在浪費虛職有需求人的生命跟青春。那叫做什麼呢?把人家死不了啦!"},{"start":732.802,"end":754.168,"text":"當初人工生殖立法的時候,反對者說待遇要跟捐精捐卵脫鉤,他們得逞了。那理委不是這樣講的喔,要一起做喔。現在子宮有病民是被凌遲了20幾年,好,行政院、立法院如今都要重新再修法,因為老化嘛,少子化嘛。這群反對者又說待遇要跟單身跟同志脫鉤,又來了!"},{"start":758.744,"end":785.718,"text":"憑什麼子宮有病變女性就要一再被欺壓?一再被拋棄?捐精捐耳的問題會比代孕輕微嗎?單身同志產生的問題會比代孕夫妻更輕微嗎?我要重複20年前,我有感而發我留下一段很無奈的話,如果再繼續阻擋代孕的話,我說那就是政府欺負人民,健康人欺負有病的人,有子宮的人欺負沒有子宮的人,"},{"start":787.793,"end":811.694,"text":"部長你也說問題在重複嘛,你願意加速這個行政程序,您說過這樣的話在委員會執行的時候,院長您支持他的做法嗎?加速行政程序?當然支持,如果社會有共識一個好的公共政策,行政程序趕快推動,對大家好,當然支持。請稍等,我們剛剛已經對社會共識的有一段時間的討論,社會共識是有一個問號的,但是我已經用科學證據告訴你,社會是有共識的。"},{"start":812.094,"end":833.949,"text":"現在有一群團體跟民進黨立委被黃淑英們擠腦,喊著要脫鉤,我必須再說,無論是代孕、單身或同志,民眾黨跟我的版本是全韓瓜的,我先說前提,如果真的要脫鉤,也是代孕優先,為什麼?如同高雄常跟副常科教授、蘭國中教授近日所言,"},{"start":834.389,"end":850.211,"text":"大陸已經奮鬥二十幾年了,來來回回太久了,大陸議題發展得比較成熟,而同性伴侶跟單身是這幾年來出現的社會議題,如果擔心後案延遲前案,"},{"start":851.152,"end":851.973,"text":"我當然會尊重專業醫師的看法"},{"start":880.486,"end":892.273,"text":"有病人嗎?99年你來看看,院長你從政了一輩子,你也就任何意見的平台都可以操作,但是我給你的是科學性的民調,國家民調,這是民國99年國建署的民調,當時15年前就分別有53.5的人或60.3的人,"},{"start":898.616,"end":926.765,"text":"他支持因為子宮有問題而進行待遇前面是夫妻後面是女性他們就這樣問那基本上當時就是超過了就是是多數多數支持好102年國建署非常小心謹慎又做了第二次民調結果顯示有68%的民眾他不贊成繼續完全禁止因為當時是當時是禁止的有85%計85%的民眾贊成在有配套情況下開放待遇給有需要的人"},{"start":927.245,"end":932.75,"text":"那我們現在修法不就是在想辦法建立制度擬定配套嗎?"},{"start":932.75,"end":940.097,"text":"院長,當時這個政協有85%人支持,這是你國建署自己做的呢?"},{"start":940.097,"end":942.659,"text":"12年前的民調現在會倒退入嗎?"},{"start":942.659,"end":945.522,"text":"現在的民情是更開放喔,會倒退入嗎?"},{"start":945.522,"end":946.022,"text":"不會嘛!"},{"start":948.223,"end":967.663,"text":"國建署實在太認真了,104年又做了第三次民調,這次題目跟直接問有人認為台灣應該完全禁止代孕,無論任何情況任何配套都不允許代孕但也有人認為說,如果政府制定配套,允許某些人在特定條件上的規範下去委託代孕,請問你比較贊成哪一方?"},{"start":968.784,"end":997.162,"text":"結果有52%的人支持部分開放待遇,6.8%贊成完全開放,也就是我剛剛談的6成的人支持台灣也有待遇制度,還有18%的民眾認為他沒有意見,他可以接受,他沒有意見。 院長這是一個進步的法案加上80%的民意接受度,我不知道你們在猶豫什麼。 院長進步法案加8成的民意支持,你們在猶豫什麼?"},{"start":999.014,"end":1023.52,"text":"還有以前是人權問題嘛現在是國安部議題阿民進黨執政後2016年當時出征20萬人阿那現在呢每年降1萬阿去年13萬阿今年是農年阿去年的前8個月跟今年前8個月比院長你知道還少多少人嗎農年喔還比去年少你知道少多少人嗎你知道嗎我辦公室每天貼阿少3000人對今年要守住13萬很困難"},{"start":1024.758,"end":1049.146,"text":"院長,你不擔心王國滅種嗎?當然擔心啊,所以我們開了好幾次人口對策會議啊。但是,不怕生、想養的人就是要趕快幫助他啊。我們鼓勵。 院長,你出生的時候一年四十幾萬喔,現在是十幾萬喔。好,我再強調一次,我的版本是包含代孕、單身跟所有同志,我主張全部納入。那但是為什麼以黃淑英為首這種脫鉤論?憑什麼代孕要被脫鉤?要被延後、要被處理?其實就是不準啊。"},{"start":1050.995,"end":1051.536,"text":"有辦過公民會議嗎?"},{"start":1051.536,"end":1053.118,"text":"有辦過全國性民調嗎?"},{"start":1053.118,"end":1054.62,"text":"如果都沒有,相比之下為什麼待遇要被脫鉤?"},{"start":1054.62,"end":1054.64,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":1068.874,"end":1084.102,"text":"如果衛福部最後的版本送出來沒有待遇,或是完整人工生殖法案,走不出行政院大門,要被姓評會再來擋住,我必須很遺憾地說,院長,那你就是讓台灣有姓評會在統治喔!你們就是打臉賴清德立委、賴清德總統喔!"},{"start":1087.988,"end":1101.553,"text":"如果事情發生我就在這邊跟你申請,我今天要跟你申請我要成為性品會委員,我有資格嗎?你認為我有資格嗎?大院委員不需要成為性品會的委員,都可以向行政院表現...沒有沒有,我要擔任性品會委員,我有資格嗎?"},{"start":1102.945,"end":1105.348,"text":"職格遠遠超過,但是不需要,你不需要成為性平衛委員。"},{"start":1124.246,"end":1147.595,"text":"部長現在下來我想跟你,不過我還是要先請教院長,好,我們回到醫療體系,我覺得衛福部在執壞球在打假球,為什麼這樣講呢?整個醫療體系有一些重大的問題,每個人終身都會受到醫療照顧,都會有求於醫療這個服務,但是也不能因此相悅嘛,因為醫療改革越好越進步,那我們每個人都會受惠,那從某個角度來看為什麼我會講出這麼嚴重的話,這個打假球執壞球,"},{"start":1152.016,"end":1161.262,"text":"我想請教院長,您對於分級醫療了解嗎?大概有概念嗎?是,推行了很多年,但是並沒有落實。好,我們來看一下賴總統的態度。應該要落實大家醫的制度,也就是轉整分級醫療,能夠更加的落實。"},{"start":1179.492,"end":1207.837,"text":"謝謝,我們先停,因為他那邊講了很多話,他不只講一次,分級醫療,好,然後再來看下一張圖,柏中這是你餒,柏中這是你餒,你看你現在復仇零次餒,我當然想2018年推動分級醫療,現在淪為口號,現在分級醫療大崩壞餒,為什麼大崩壞我等一下把數字給你看,你都講給我,分級醫療,賴總統也要分級醫療,那個院長我請你看這張圖,別人不告訴你真相,我告訴你真相。"},{"start":1208.937,"end":1229.843,"text":"左邊這張圖是健保開辦1995年醫學中心13家區醫院48家地區醫院有568家這是一個非常穩健的正三角形的醫療架構非常穩但是健保執行20幾年之後你看長成這個樣子醫學中心越來越多區醫院大型區醫院越來越多但是地區醫院縮少到"},{"start":1231.058,"end":1259.616,"text":"三百一十三家幾乎腰斬好今年的醫院這個評鑑公布了醫學中心有二十六家我來告訴院長院長二十六家醫學中心都在做軍備競賽所謂的重大醫療設備全世界都說臺灣是密度最高的地方動輒幾億幾十億的這個是非常奇怪的現象然後民眾會往這裡跑然後收費也非常高昂沒有一個國家是這樣搞的"},{"start":1261.741,"end":1287.838,"text":"我這樣說,部長你好像心裡有數。如果繼續補考的話,未來的架構變什麼?請院長看最右邊這個圖。到底最後我們的醫療架構會變成一個倒三角形還是這個傘狀?總之它的底部就是萎縮了。那後遺症是什麼?受害者這些民眾不會清楚,但是意見都心知肚明。邱部長你一定知道啦。我想請教院長,院長你覺得罪魁禍首是誰呢?禍首?"},{"start":1289.366,"end":1313.19,"text":"我跟委員報告我過去在議會或立法院的時代我比較接觸最多的是基層醫療協會如果這個轉診制度的落實起來的話基層醫療也會很堅強到社區裡面的診所也會很堅強基層醫療一定是支持我們分級醫療的做法為什麼我說衛福部要首當其衝因為你是主的單位"},{"start":1313.55,"end":1314.972,"text":"那民眾往這邊跑,啊怎麼辦?"},{"start":1337.214,"end":1365.216,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣,你擋得住嗎?要成立一個醫學中心,必須它有相當的人口,一定的條件。兩百萬人?對,兩百萬的人口一半。所以,我們只要12家就好了,現在我們26家,好嗎?院長,謝謝你也理解這個醫療網計畫的規範。院長,賴總統努力推動健康台灣,也召開過很多的研討會跟這個活動,變了60億,欸60億不是小數目,因為癌症病有推,努力好多年,好不容易拿到50億的那個今年拿到,明年拿到50億的癌症心藥基金,"},{"start":1365.836,"end":1388.511,"text":"那我目前收到健康臺灣的這個草案計畫裡面只寫的四個範疇優化醫療工作條件規劃多元人才培育導入智慧科技醫療社會責任醫療永續我想從大方向大院長簡單講您覺得這個經費怎麼分配你會集中在某一些醫院嗎就是我大概先了解您的初步想法這是大院長的政策"},{"start":1390.05,"end":1413.286,"text":"健康臺灣是從選舉前一個大型論壇集合大家的意見之後,形成一個最後的深耕計畫,那深耕計畫當然要透過衛福部去執行下去,這幾次沒有執行,你必須透過衛福部去執行下去。 我知道現在沒有細節,因為我也收不到,所以衛福部有沒有思考過,是不是要協助,我剛剛講,我先讓你看分級醫療已經長得很畸形了嘛,"},{"start":1413.846,"end":1415.588,"text":"委員可以問我報告一下,真的很感謝您關心健康台灣生產計畫"},{"start":1438.787,"end":1455.198,"text":"這個就是仿照我們頂大計,就是說頂尖大學五年五百億的一個計畫,能夠螺製更多的人才。可是那個有爭議喔,你到底要在菁英大學還是普遍的大學來支持?這種概念之下來引導,但是這個經會請放心,第一年"},{"start":1459.161,"end":1487.851,"text":"我跟那個委員一樣,我從小到大,就是到現在完全沒有改變,就是支持分級醫療,雙向轉整,加強primary health care,這是WHO的趨勢。你看我所有的論述,幾百篇論述,絕對都是想辦法要達到讓人民能夠得到一個最accessible的一個狀況。然後那個在深耕計畫裡面,即使你放心,"},{"start":1488.391,"end":1505.455,"text":"我們用盡了腦筋,他重要的是要有創新模式,希望過去的弊病,包括比如說基層醫療沒有辦法發揮戰力,我們有一個模式讓他戰力。我剛剛是請教院長大方向,但是那個四項範疇,優化醫療更多條件,就是說會納入哪些醫事員如何優化,你是加薪還是互併比?"},{"start":1513.796,"end":1542.205,"text":"這個賴總統承諾兩年內要互併筆要入法欸互併筆我們有一個什麼樣的KPI對不對這是第一個目標一個對優化工作條件嘛規劃多這個多元人才培育台灣121需要什麼我想院長您也可以部長一定要知道的院長你知道傳統科別內外負荷跟重症科是相對不足的五官科比較沒有壓力的五官科是很搶手的啊那你這個計畫能不能解決這個問題有也要也要我們缺的"},{"start":1543.243,"end":1547.367,"text":"社會責任跟醫療永續,要談永續就要想好怎麼幫醫院減碳嘛。有包括這個部分。"},{"start":1568.104,"end":1568.364,"text":"是是是"},{"start":1583.547,"end":1608.17,"text":"可以嗎?就是說我是不是能夠有一個你們的這麼多錢60億,大概怎麼用?有什麼規劃?我可以在一個月內給一個月時間可以嗎?我們稍微了解嘛,幫助我們這個...發言委員,我們第一個就是四大範疇裡面的各個計畫重點,我們最近已經炒你出來,然後他的經費分配會相當的平均,特別會折衷在"},{"start":1609.33,"end":1610.151,"text":"賴總統當時也說政府要講清楚解決什麼問題"},{"start":1636.582,"end":1636.922,"text":"臨時提案委員．陳昭姿"},{"start":1653.32,"end":1677.991,"text":"我們大概希望在一個日之內公布他的一個怎麼扣計劃哪個單位是可以扣計劃就開始要來接受大家的申請我們再來看醫院評鑑這是你現在的副手林市長講話2016年他講以下都是他講的話當年6千億的健保總和醫院佔了4千億許多醫院為了讓5月的評鑑成績好看"},{"start":1679.151,"end":1700.147,"text":"拿到較多的總額分配,下令醫護人員在評鑑期間要禁止休息、休假、禁休。他還說,如果評鑑真的在改善醫療品質,那請問篩報的急診,過來的醫護是在哪個平行世界?負責評鑑的醫策會,許多成員都是醫院的總監事。醫院評鑑每期名是改善醫療品質,實則是藉由玩高裝檢設備,瓜分上千億的健保大餅。林靜怡還要求當時的衛福部長蔣秉煌"},{"start":1706.312,"end":1707.574,"text":"立刻停止該年的評鑑。"},{"start":1716.169,"end":1744.631,"text":"如果他是在立法委員任內看到這些問題﹖表示他是有仔細在觀察﹖也設身有這樣的體驗﹖那他現在身為政務人員﹖他應該有責任跟能力去面對這個問題﹖解決這個問題﹖不是換位置換腦袋啊﹖不是換位置換腦袋﹖只是去做啊﹖右邊這張圖是護理師們穿的粉裝﹖護理師們﹖右邊標題寫平建前的暴風雨凝靜﹖我們可以帶我們護理師在平建前要很忙﹖很多作業要做﹖到底平建有沒有某個程度的造假﹖"},{"start":1748.259,"end":1752.711,"text":"請問邱部長,你覺得平健能夠改善醫療品質嗎?就這句話,你覺得平健可以改善醫療品質嗎?"},{"start":1754.622,"end":1783.656,"text":"我覺得評鑑一定會改善醫療品質跟安全。好,那就暫停。那就請你跟這個林氏好好溝通啊。他認為塞鮑爾急診過了的醫護是在哪個世界啊?如果評鑑真的可以改善醫療品質,這也不過,他自己講的啊。但是評鑑有他一定的縣市嘛,他就是打各個,他的項目也是全國的相關的專家想領濟出來的項目。再來這個醫院評鑑,我時間有限。評審委員、考察委員也都是我們獨高望重的前輩,所以已經很努力了。"},{"start":1784.996,"end":1810.788,"text":"三立新聞也講了,反正醫師在這評鑑做很多不實的紀錄等等等,批院訓練室漏息,所以我現在要求一個很重要,我要求醫策會在每回醫院評鑑的時候,不能只公布分數跟榜單,我要求一份總評報告,這個總評報告對於整體醫療的分析跟影響,包括各級醫院發展的變化,民眾就醫行為的可能改變以及可能財務衝擊,院長您覺得我這個要求合理嗎?醫院評鑑花那麼多資源,不能只有榜單跟名單,"},{"start":1811.408,"end":1811.668,"text":"所以我們時間到了"},{"start":1847.11,"end":1847.57,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員。謝謝左院長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":562,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（11時36分）謝謝。主席有請卓院長、邱部長。"],["主席：院長，邱部長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長好、部長好。院長，總質詢期間辛苦你們了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，當初蔡政府要開放萊豬進口的時候，當時有66%的民意因為食安的疑慮是反對的，但是因為那時候有國會的優勢，所以還是闖過關了。所以這個部分可以說明，民進黨想推動什麼法案，大概就會過什麼樣的法案，所謂的社會共識，大概只有在不想推動什麼法案的時候，就會一直講沒有社會共識、沒有社會共識。為什麼我要這樣說呢？以代孕法案來說，3次國家的民調平均有六成的民眾是贊成的，兩成不反對，就是有八成的民意基礎，但是近日幾位民進黨立委在委員會質詢的時候還是說沒有共識，所以我這裡要請教部長，請問什麼叫做共識？共識是誰的共識？請問天下有哪一件事是有共識的？請院長回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果要以最近的例子來看，我覺得成立運動部的共識是很高的，我們一直以這個當作國會跟立法院以及全社會來做合作的一個很好的典範跟例子，這是一個很高的共識，至於說當初美國萊豬的問題，那是因為我們有科學的根據，以國際的標準也保障大家安全的前提才通過。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長，萊豬的部分，我也理解。院長請看下一張投影片上的話，「對於生殖機能有障礙的病人，我們應該以更寬大包容的心來協助他們，而非只是一味要求他們放棄生育權利，強迫他們以領養來解決問題。捐精、捐卵及代孕應是設立『人工生殖法』的重要所在，如果這幾個方面沒有完整合理的規劃，則將失去立法意義。」請問院長，您知道這段話出自何人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教，我不知道這個話是……"],["陳委員昭姿：你不知道喔？那你認同這段話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我基本上是認同的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，院長，這是賴清德立委在2002年提出的代孕人工生殖法案草案的提案說明，謝謝你剛好也是認同的。但是很遺憾，5年後、2007年的人工生殖法案僅僅包含捐精、捐卵，還是排除了代孕，迄今二十幾年。當時的賴清德立委，現在已經是賴清德總統了，今年520國宴我親自向他再確認，我說：「賴總統，你還支持代孕嗎？」他告訴我，他支持代孕的態度一直都沒有改變，當時在我旁邊還有好幾位立委，包括貴黨的許智傑立委。院長，行政院是否該將代孕解禁了呢？還是兩位，你們要繼續打臉賴立委、賴總統呢？是不是該解禁了？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統有告訴過我國宴那天你們講話的場景，他也認為在事實的情況下，臺灣社會已經朝向更開放、更進步、更多元的時代，是可以研究的，像人工生殖跟代理孕母這兩個議題，有其程度上的不同，我們可以持續的漸進。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長還有向您的上司了解他所說的話。這次衛福部推出的人工生殖法修法再次包含代孕，再次！請問院長，您支持衛福部的版本嗎？這是政府的版本，您支持衛福部的版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請衛福部先說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是，我要請教院長，因為您的態度很重要。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們還沒有送到行政院，所以我先報告一下。跟委員報告，現在我們截至7月13號已經結束預告期……"],["陳委員昭姿：簡單說明。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有開了大概十幾次的專家會議，目前來講，還是把代理孕母部分放在裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝，稍後再麻煩你。院長知道總統的態度，這是非常重要的。"],["邱部長泰源：預計11月底或12月送到行政院。"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼我認為院長的態度很重要？院長，其實多年來，每次衛福部都有提出代孕的修法，都被行政院性平會委員連署反對，性平會！上面的資料是102年，當時共同連署人包括顧燕翎，他後來還當了臺北市社會局局長，他在電視上公然說不孕又不是病，怎麼會痛苦！我當時在家裡看電視，很想回他：你爸爸、媽媽死了，你也沒有病，為什麼會痛苦？今年3月，長期擔任性平會委員的黃淑英，在性平會的會前會封殺代孕這個議程，他不讓代孕進入議程討論。他近期告訴人家說，代孕是覬覦別人的子宮。我很想回他：你有種、有本事、有膽，就這樣跟等待器官捐贈的人說，你們在覬覦別人的器官。","院長，我要講的是，行政院性平會怎麼會長期聘了這幾位態度偏激、心理變態的委員呢？二十幾年來，代孕經歷過多少公開的討論，2次公民會議、3次國家民調、超過10次的公聽會以及無數場的專家會議，還有委託大學做研究計畫，所有結論都不是5比5，而是幾乎一面倒的支持代孕解禁，這都是政府機關辦的，請問政府機關辦的有沒有公信力？院長，有沒有公信力？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員理解，政府所有各類委員會裡面，如果有外界民間人士參與，我們都會廣泛多元邀集具各種聲音的不同代表。"],["陳委員昭姿：也有結論嘛！也有結論嘛！剛剛我提到，國健署的民調有大概八成的人接受代孕，幾位性平會的委員憑什麼否決八成民意？憑什麼用個人的意識形態，扼殺不孕病人的一線生機？基本上，院長您的態度非常重要，是您在當家，還是性平會在當家？"],["卓院長榮泰：性平會當然是院內的一個委員會、一個組織，所有決議，行政院有自己政策上的目標跟決定。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，很好，院長，因為你上次回答我是人民在當家，我已經告訴你民意如此，這是有證據可考察的。然後我也可以告訴你一些內幕，林全在當院長的時候，這個性平會非常囂張，一直都很囂張，他很忍耐的聽了幾個小時；蘇院長的時候主持一次會議後，就說不用再召開了；賴院長主持的時候，曾經公開說：你們記好你們的角色，你們是諮議委員。院長，你剛剛也提出了，這些人是諮議委員，不是決策委員喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的、是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：是性平會在統治臺灣嗎？還是您在治理臺灣、賴總統在治理臺灣？院長，我要你拿出魄力，不要讓性平會爬到你的頭上，國家有國家的立場。好，性平會不是太上皇機關，因為您是召集人，部長是委員，如果人工生殖法案這次再進到性平會，而他們又反對了，部長要不要捍衛你的版本？院長要不要捍衛政府的版本？你要不要捍衛？政府有版本啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我一定會說明我們版本的意義、考量，以及會面面俱到，照顧到兒童、小孩權益，照顧到母親……"],["陳委員昭姿：你就說你會捍衛！你的部版你不捍衛，還當什麼部長！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：性平委員如果有過去的疑問，我想我們會用現在的專業跟現在的發展來回復，希望能夠取得理解；如果有新發生的問題，我們共同來討論一個解決方式。"],["陳委員昭姿：人類的社會行為已經很久了，執政者有義務為自己的政策辯護。現在我跟陳菁徽委員變成像是執政黨的立委，到處在捍衛衛福部的版本，對不對？兩位是不是可以承諾……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的公共政策本來就應該朝野一起來推動啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：站穩立場，捍衛政策。還有我再問一下院長，請問一定要送性平會嗎？法案一定要送性平會嗎？這是誰規定的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想這是一個時代演變的需求，已經有這種組織，我們會希望它更健全。"],["陳委員昭姿：但我已經告訴你，有幾個變態的委員在裡面，講了那些不像話的話啊！院長，為代孕做辯護，我資料都幫你準備好了，衛生署、國健署共兩次公民會議得到非常積極正面的結論，是積極正面，而不是5比5喔！國健署3次全國性民調也獲得壓倒性的支持。","另外還有一份是民國88年衛生署研究報告，主持人是婦產科權威，他現在還在照顧病人，就是曾啟瑞教授，他的主題是「代理孕母國際現況分析」，研究結論是這樣的：「長期以來，我們從宗教、倫理、女權、法律等各種觀點不斷的爭辯……我們經常忽略的是主角本身──委託夫妻和代理孕母夫妻，……禁止不等於不會發生……」禁止不等於不會發生！「尤其代理孕母並非本質唯惡的行為。在禁止的狀況之下，只會使當事人夫妻在更沒有保障的情況下秘密進行代理孕母行為。這對當事人及其子女都不會更有利。」我也偷跑過啊！請記得這個是衛生署的研究計畫所作的結論。","下一張也是民國99年衛生署還有一個研究主題是「世界各國代孕生殖政策討論」，結論很清楚，代孕爭執已久，「當初開始推動代孕的不孕者經歷這麼多年，已難享有代孕政策開放的果實。」這說的就是我陳昭姿，即便代孕今天通過，我也沒辦法用，但是我背後站了很多人，根據專家評估大概有數千人苦苦等待這個法案。我們繼續看本研究的結論指出我國人民結婚年齡不斷延後，不孕人口逐漸增加，十幾年前就已經發現，代孕需求與日俱增，開放代孕已成世界潮流，希望本研究的成果有助於代孕法規及早制定施行，讓不孕夫妻得享有現代生殖醫學科技帶來的喜悅。院長，這是在99年，現在是113年年底！反對者三十多年來論述都一樣，指稱都是剝削女性、物化子宮，他們一直用臆測而沒有發生的事情來扼殺真實存在的不孕夫妻的一線生機。從衛生署到衛福部都研究了各國的政策，他們拿印度會發生的事情來類推臺灣，我請教院長，你覺得我們國家的法規會比較走歐美國家的方向，還是會去學習印度呢？您覺得您的政策？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要學習的是進步但適合我國國情的。"],["陳委員昭姿：進步國家的。我們適合印度嗎？我們是適合歐美國家還是印度？"],["卓院長榮泰：看什麼法規，這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們還有可以向印度學習的喔？我還不知道有這種事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：印度的軟體就很進步。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要告訴院長，這份報告的協同主持人叫做林志潔教授，他是非常優秀的法律學者，也是貴黨的同志，我很慶幸他成為本屆的性平會委員，希望院長好好拜讀他的這個研究，也希望政府用科學、用法律來擺脫那群有被害妄想症的女人，尤其自認為是女權主義者。","邱部長，衛福部的草案已經擬了一段時間，也蒐集了一堆意見，你也承認它跟過去的想法都一樣，可是這幾十年來醫學在進步，民情更開放，反對者同一套論述就是在浪費虛擲有需求人的生命跟青春，那叫做什麼呢？別人的小孩死不完啦！當初人工生殖立法的時候，反對者說代孕要跟捐精捐卵脫鉤，他們得逞了，但賴立委不是這樣講的喔，他說要一起做喔！子宮有病變，被凌遲了二十幾年，行政院、立法院如今都要重新再修法，因為少子化，這群反對者又說代孕要跟單身、同志脫鉤，又來了！憑什麼子宮有病變的女性就要一再被欺壓、一再被拋棄，捐精捐卵的問題會比代孕輕微嗎？單身、同志產生的問題會比代孕夫妻更輕微嗎？我要重複二十年前我有感而發所留下一段很無奈的話，如果再繼續阻擋代孕的話，我說那就是政府欺負人民，健康人欺負有病的人，有子宮的人欺負沒有子宮的人。部長，你也說問題一再重複，你願意加速這個行政程序，您說過這樣的話，在委員會質詢的時候。院長，您支持他的作法嗎？加速行政程序。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然支持。如果社會有共識，一個好的公共政策，行政程序趕快推動，對大家好，當然執行。"],["陳委員昭姿：請稍等，我們剛剛已經對社會共識有一段時間的討論，社會共識是有一個問號的，但是我已經用科學證據告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：社會是有共識的。現在有一群團體跟民進黨立委被黃淑英們洗腦，喊著要脫鉤。我必須再說，無論是代孕、單身或同志，民眾黨跟我的版本是全含括的，全含括的喔！我先說前提。如果真的要脫鉤，也是代孕優先，為什麼？如同高雄長庚婦產科藍國忠教授近日所言，代孕已經奮鬥二十幾年來來回回太久了，代孕議題發展得比較成熟，而同性伴侶跟單身是這幾年來出現的社會議題。如果擔心後案延遲前案，以下是藍教授講的，不是我講的，要優先的也是以病人的需求為優先，要儘速通過這個，讓不孕女性可以用代孕。因為所謂的代孕，就是子宮有病變，至於單身同志，這是比較社會性的議題，所以藍教授的意思是說，先病人的需求，再來談社會，當然同步最好。他提出了這樣的論點，您接受嗎？一個照顧病人那麼多的醫師。"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然會尊重專業醫師的看法。"],["陳委員昭姿：病人嘛。99年，你來看看，院長，您從政了一輩子，您也知道任何意見的平臺都可以操作，但是我給你的是科學性的民調、國家民調。這是民國99年國健署的民調，15年前，當時就分別有53.5%的人或60.3%的人支持因為子宮有問題而進行代孕，前面是夫妻，後面是女性，他們就這樣問，基本上當時就是超過了，是多數支持。","102年國健署非常小心、謹慎又做了第二次民調，結果顯示，有68%的民眾他不贊成繼續完全禁止，因為當時是禁止的；有85%，記好，85%的民眾贊成在有配套情況下開放代孕給有需要的人。那我們現在修法，不就是在想辦法建立制度、擬定配套嗎？院長，什麼時候一個政見有85%的人支持？這是你國健署自己做的，12年前的民調，現在會倒退嚕嗎？現在的民情是更開放，會倒退嚕嗎？不會嘛！","國健署實在太認真了，104年又做了第三次民調，這次題目更直接，題目是問：有人認為臺灣應該完全禁止代孕，無論任何情況、任何配套都不允許代孕；但也有人認為，如果政府制定配套，其實可以就允許某些人在特定條件與規範下去委託代孕，請問你比較贊成哪一方？結果有52%的人支持部分開放代孕，6.8%贊成完全開放，也就是我剛剛談的六成的人支持臺灣也有代孕制度，還有18%的民眾沒有意見，他可以接受，他沒有意見。","院長，這是一個進步的法案，加上80%的民意接受度，我不知道你們在猶豫什麼耶！院長，進步的法案加八成的民意支持，你們在猶豫什麼？","還有，以前是人權問題，現在是國安議題。民進黨執政後，2016年當時出生20萬人，現在每年降1萬，去年13萬，今年是龍年，去年前8個月跟今年前8個月比，院長，你知道還少多少人嗎？龍年喔，還比去年少，你知道少多少人嗎？你知道嗎？我辦公室每天貼啊！少三千人。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，今年要守住13萬很困難。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，你不擔心亡國滅種嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然擔心啊！所以我們開了好幾次人口對策會議。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是不怕生、想養的人，就是要趕快幫助他啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們鼓勵。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，你出生的時候一年四十幾萬新生兒，現在是十幾萬。我再強調一次，我的版本是包含代孕、單身跟所有同志，我主張全部納入，但是為什麼以黃淑英為首的這種脫鉤論，憑什麼代孕要被脫鉤、要被延後、要被處理，其實就是不准哪！難道這些女性、女女同志借精生子，會沒有爭議嗎？難道他們生了小孩，一定就符合最佳兒童利益原則嗎？有辦過公民會議嗎？有辦過全國性民調嗎？如果都沒有，相比之下，為什麼代孕要被脫鉤？為什麼？如果衛福部最後送出來的版本沒有代孕，或是完整的人工生殖法案走不出行政院大門，要被性平會再來擋住，我必須很遺憾地說，院長，你就是讓臺灣由性平會在統治喔，你們就是打臉賴清德立委、賴清德總統喔！院長，如果事情發生，我就在這邊跟你申請，我今天要跟你申請我要成為性平會委員，我有資格嗎？您認為我有資格嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大院委員不需要成為性平會的委員，都可以向行政院表示……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有、沒有，我要擔任性平會委員，我有資格嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：資格遠遠超過，但是不需要，你不需要成為性平會委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：我告訴你為什麼我有資格，因為你的師父謝長廷院長在2005年到2007年就聘我為性平會委員，我後來因為立院太忙了才沒參加。"],["卓院長榮泰：你現在已經是國會議員，就不需要成為性平會委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：當時叫婦權會，我已經擔任過，我當然有資格，但是我希望性平會好好做事，不要找一些心理變態的人在裡面搞。","部長，接下來我想跟你討論，不過我還是要先請教院長，我們回到醫療體系，我覺得衛福部在擲壞球、打假球，為什麼這樣講？整個醫療體系有一些重大問題，每個人終身都會受到醫療照顧，都會有求於醫療服務，但是也不能因此鄉愿，因為醫療改革越好越進步，我們每個人都會受惠。從某個角度來看，為什麼我會講出這麼嚴重的話？打假球、擲壞球！我想請教院長，你對於分級醫療瞭解嗎？大概有概念嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，推行了很多年，但是並沒有落實。"],["陳委員昭姿：關於分級醫療，我們來看一下賴總統的態度。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝，我們先停，因為他那天講了很多話，他不只講了一次「分級醫療」。","再來看下一張圖，部長，這是你和你現在的副手林次長，2018年想「推動分級醫療」，現在淪為口號，現在分級醫療大崩壞！為什麼大崩壞？我等一下把數字給你看。這些都是你講過的話，賴總統也提到要分級醫療。","院長，請你看這張圖，別人不告訴你真相，我告訴你真相，左邊這張圖是1995年健保開辦，當時醫學中心13家、區域醫院48家、地區醫院568家，這是一個非常穩健的正三角形醫療架構，非常穩。但是健保執行二十幾年之後，你看長成這個樣子，醫學中心越來越多，區域醫院、大型區域醫院也越來越多，但是地區醫院縮少到313家，幾乎腰斬。今年的醫院評鑑公布了，醫學中心有26家，我要告訴院長，26家醫學中心都在做軍備競賽，所謂的重大醫療設備，全世界都說臺灣是密度最高的地方，動輒幾億、幾十億的，這個是非常奇怪的現象，民眾會往這裡跑，收費也非常高昂，沒有一個國家是這樣搞的！","部長，我這樣說你應該心裡有數，如果繼續胡搞的話，未來的架構會變成什麼？請院長看最右邊這個圖，最後我們的醫療架構到底會變成一個倒三角形還是傘狀？總之它的底部就是萎縮了，這個後遺症是什麼？受害最深的民眾不會清楚，但是醫界都心知肚明。邱部長，你一定知道，我想請教院長，你覺得罪魁禍首是誰呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：禍首？我想是整個醫療制度和健保制度……"],["陳委員昭姿：醫療制度就是衛福部啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我過去在議會或立法院的時代，我接觸最多的是基層醫療協會，如果這個轉診制度能夠落實起來，基層醫療也會很堅強，到社區裡面的診所也會很堅強。"],["陳委員昭姿：基層醫療一定是支持我們分級醫療的作法。為什麼我說衛福部首當其衝？因為你是主責單位，你想要當好人、當聖誕老公公，就破壞了醫療網計畫，人家要蓋醫院，你都讓它蓋。院長，我再跟你告狀一次，現在40%是空床，因為護理人員不夠，可是現在手邊有1.2萬床等著蓋、同意的，醫院繼續長大、醫學中心繼續長大、大醫院繼續長大，民眾往這邊跑，怎麼辦？現在的狀況是這樣，你擋得住嗎？擋不住！你擋不住，你……"],["卓院長榮泰：要成立一個醫學中心，必須要有相當人口、一定條件。"],["陳委員昭姿：兩百萬人……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，兩百萬人口以上。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以我們只要12家就好了，現在我們有26家，好嗎？院長，謝謝你也理解這個醫療網計畫的規範。院長，賴總統努力推動健康臺灣，也召開過很多研討會及活動，編列了60億，60億不是小數目，因為癌症病友努力好多年，好不容易明年拿到50億的癌症新藥基金。我目前收到的健康台灣草案計畫裡面只寫著四個範疇：優化醫療工作條件、規劃多元人才培育、導入智慧科技醫療、社會責任醫療永續。從大方向來看，院長，簡單講，你覺得這個經費怎麼分配，你會集中在某一些醫院嗎？我大概先了解你的初步想法，這是賴院長的政策。"],["卓院長榮泰：「健康台灣」是從選舉前一個大型論壇集合大家的意見之後，最後形成的一個深耕計畫，那深耕計畫當然要透過衛福部來執行下去，自己是沒有執行力，必須透過衛福部去執行。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道現在沒有細節，因為我也收不到，所以衛福部有沒有思考過是不是要協助，我剛剛講因為那個……我先讓你看分級醫療已經長得很畸形了，那你是不是要有相當以上的譬如說一半的經費是拿來支持地區醫院、基層診所，甚至社區藥局，有更多的資源去聘優秀的醫事人員，就是你要照顧社區醫院跟基層，讓它底部要很穩啊！院長可以往這個方向處理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：委員，我報告一下，真的很感謝您關心健康台灣深耕計畫，這個就是仿照頂大計畫，就是頂尖大學5年500億的計畫，能夠網羅更多的人才。"],["陳委員昭姿：不過那個有爭議，你到底要在菁英大學還是普遍大學來支持？"],["邱部長泰源：這種概念之下來引……但是這個經費請放心，第一點，我跟委員一樣，我從小到現在完全沒有改變，就是支持分級醫療、雙向轉診，加強primary health care，這是WHO的趨勢，你看我所有的論述、幾百篇論述，絕對都是想辦法要達到讓人民能夠得到accessible的照顧。"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天讓你講，院長也都聽到了，會支持的。"],["邱部長泰源：然後在深耕計畫裡面，其實你放心，我們用盡了腦筋，它重要的是要有創新模式，希望過去的弊病，包括譬如說基層醫療沒有辦法發揮戰力，我們有一個模式讓它戰力強壯。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我剛剛是請教院長大方向，但是那四項範疇，優化醫療工作條件會納入哪些醫事人員？如何優化？是加薪還是護病比？賴總統承諾兩年內護病比要入法。"],["卓院長榮泰：護病比我們有一個目標……"],["陳委員昭姿：你有什麼樣的KPI？這是第一個，優化工作條件嘛！規劃多元人才培育，臺灣醫療其實需要什麼？我想院長你也……因為部長一定要知道的，院長，你知不知道傳統科別，內外婦兒跟重症科是相對不足的喔！五官科比較沒有壓力，五官科是很搶手的，那這個計畫能不能解決這個問題？"],["邱部長泰源：有，也要……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們缺的就是內外婦兒跟重症科醫師。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱部長泰源：我們甚至……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們要往這個方向走。"],["邱部長泰源：我們甚至也可以call一個計畫，如何人才培育，培育他願意到偏鄉，願意以社區為職志的醫療人員。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。社會責任跟醫療永續，要談永續就要想好怎麼幫醫院減碳嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：有包括這個部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：不能都推給環境部啦！"],["邱部長泰源：有包括這個部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：衛福部要自己做啦！能源管理、醫療廢棄物，現在醫療廢棄物跑出抗生素了，今天我沒有空處理，你是不是已經有這個方針跟指引讓醫院有一個方向走，你很忙耶！部長，很多事要做，這個計畫很多事要做。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：可以嗎？就是我是不是能夠有一個……你們這麼多錢，60億大概怎麼用、有什麼規劃，我可以一個月內……給你一個月時間可以嗎？我們稍微了解嘛！幫助我們……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：了解，也可以讓我們監督。"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，就四大範疇裡面的各個計畫重點，我們最近已經草擬出來，然後它的經費分配會相當平均，特別會著重在社區整合型照顧、基層醫療分級，還有分級醫療怎麼樣創造一個模式，不要忘記臺灣過去在分級醫療的努力，大家也費了很多苦心，我們現在有81個很好的分級醫療體系，這都是我們的力量。"],["陳委員昭姿：我了解您是家醫出身背景，您對這個是很清楚，謝謝部長。院長，賴總統當時也說，政府要講清楚要解決什麼問題、要達到什麼目標、需要多少經費、有多少民眾可以受益，他講得很清楚喔！所以目前我看這些計畫60億是看不到賴總統講的這些事情，所以我剛剛講，是不是一個月內讓我們了解健康台灣深耕計畫到底要怎麼做，有個方向，可以嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望大概在一個月之內公布……"],["陳委員昭姿：一個月可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：都有在進行。"],["陳委員昭姿：一個月OK啊！我沒有說一個禮拜哦！我說一個月哦！"],["邱部長泰源：公布怎麼call計畫、哪個單位可以call計畫，就開始要來接受大家的申請。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。我們再來看醫院評鑑，這是你現在的副手──林次長講的話，2016年他講的，以下都是他講的話，當年6,000億的健保總額，醫院占了4,000億，許多醫院為了讓5月的評鑑成績好看，拿到較多的總額分配，下令醫護人員在評鑑期間要禁止休息、休假。他還說，如果評鑑真的在改善醫療品質，請問塞爆的急診、過勞的醫護是在哪個平行世界？負責評鑑的醫策會，許多成員都是醫院的董監事，醫院評鑑美其名是改善醫療品質，實則是藉由玩高裝檢設備瓜分上千億的健保大餅，林靜儀還要求當時的衛福部長蔣丙煌立刻停止該年的評鑑。院長，我要問的是院長，院長，你說他講得有沒有道理？這是你的政務官。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果他是在立法委員任內看到這些問題，就表示他是有仔細在觀察，也設身有這樣的體驗，他現在身為政務人員，他應該有責任跟能力去面對這個問題、解決這個問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：去做啊！不是換位置換腦袋啊！不是換位置換腦袋，要去做啊。右邊這張圖是護理師們創立的粉專，標題寫「評鑑前的暴風雨寧靜」，我們可以知道護理師在評鑑前很忙，很多作業要做，到底評鑑有沒有某個程度地造假？我們認為醫界心知肚明。請問邱部長，你覺得評鑑能夠改善醫療品質嗎？就這句話，你覺得評鑑可以改善醫療品質嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得評鑑一定可以改善醫療品質跟安全。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就暫停，就請你跟林次好好溝通，他認為塞爆的急診、過勞的醫護是在哪個平行世界？如果評鑑真的可以改善醫療品質，這些是他自己講的啊。"],["邱部長泰源：但是評鑑有它一定的限制，它的項目也是全國相關的專家所擬具出來的項目。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，再來醫院評鑑，我時間有限……"],["邱部長泰源：評審委員、考察委員也都是我們德高望重的前輩，已經很努力了。"],["陳委員昭姿：你看下一張簡報，三立新聞也講了，反正就是醫師在做評鑑時做很多不實的紀錄等等，批醫院評鑑是陋習。所以我現在要求一個很重要的，我要求醫策會在每回醫院評鑑的時候，不能只公布分數跟榜單，我要求一份總評報告，這個總評報告對於整體醫療的分析跟影響，包括各級醫院發展的變化、民眾就醫行為的可能改變以及可能的財務衝擊，院長，你覺得我這個要求合理嗎？醫院評鑑花那麼多資源，不能只有榜單跟名單，我要求有個總評報告，可以嗎？院長，你覺得我這樣要求合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果能夠促進更專業的評鑑出來，改善醫院的水準跟素質，任何的革新建議都可以來討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要一份報告。","好，還是允許我最後一張簡報，這是我臺大醫院的朋友，他在那邊服務10年，每隔一段時間就會寄給我看臺大急診處溢滿溢出的狀況，最後一張投影片。"],["主席：陳委員，我們時間到了。"],["陳委員昭姿：醫學中心，大家是……但是也不能把急診的病床都塞在正門大廳。主席，你不肯給我再1分鐘？好。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一直在努力。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長、院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會，進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時7分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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isperx":[{"start":1.249,"end":6.233,"text":"謝主席,我請卓院長還有邱部長。請卓院長、邱部長備詢。黃委員好、委員長好、部長好。我想請問兩位都滿65歲了嗎?當然。已經滿了。所以院長您打過疫苗了嗎?打過。打了。今年打了。"},{"start":32.051,"end":35.613,"text":"十月一號的流感疫苗跟新冠疫苗你打了嗎?"},{"start":35.613,"end":44.038,"text":"今年的流感疫苗打過,不是上半年,在年中的時候打過。 十月一號開打的你打了嗎?"},{"start":44.038,"end":46.52,"text":"我十月一號公開打,兩個都打。"},{"start":48.959,"end":72.278,"text":"院長知道最近我們打疫苗的人數嗎?到10月20號流感的話有555萬人但是新冠疫苗只有56萬人部長發生了什麼事?為什麼差這麼大?就你家不是左流右心嗎?是然後可是差距是10倍一個是500多萬人一個是50萬你買了600萬劑"},{"start":75.582,"end":80.636,"text":"現在只達了56萬劑,我們有什麼,是發生什麼事情,什麼問題,要怎麼宣導?"},{"start":82.93,"end":107.359,"text":"所以第一個宣導就是10月1號,我就是走的六關。 太少人是不知道還是不敢打新冠疫苗?首先講流感疫苗,流感疫苗基本上大家都願意打。 院長我的問題是你這600萬劑要打的話,如果你現在的宣導速度我覺得有點慢,是不是可以再多"},{"start":108.312,"end":110.394,"text":"時間暫停,我請那個時間暫停,部長請回這個直接問院長好了,院長我現在很簡單的問一下"},{"start":137.779,"end":164.441,"text":"部長請回部長可以請回我簡單問一下賴清德總統說要推動亞洲金融科技創新中心這是非常重要的政策那看起來我們目前為止金融科技其實有在推但大部分是民間在推可是國內的金控公司對於轉投資所謂的新創其實從我們調他們的資料除了凱基金超過100億以上"},{"start":166.002,"end":186.846,"text":"其他幾乎興趣缺缺,總金額佔它的淨值不到5%,也就是說金融創新在金融業並不是那麼受歡迎。然後現在我們看到了,很多的單位都來向院長要錢,環境部要做綠色成長基金,然後文化部已經拿到文化創意產業的將近98億,"},{"start":190.154,"end":212.488,"text":"智慧、健康、國發基金要給他9月6號給他相關的也大概是百億的基金。 然後綠色成長的環境部現在又要提出一個百億基金。 四個百億基金我現在在這邊幫金管會請命。 院長是不是可以有第五支箭促成國內金融科技的杜教授。 比照這四大基金。"},{"start":214.777,"end":234.291,"text":"黃委員,您也待過地方政府,您也知道... 因為這是國發基金裡面可以動用的錢,所以如果可以的話,部長已經跟你現在在申請,所以院長,金融科技發展我認為也是重要的,所以環境部這筆錢要不要得到,那金融科技是不是院長也考慮一下?"},{"start":235.914,"end":263.466,"text":"如果有周圓的計畫,那我們在財政能力上可以的話,我們當然希望能夠建計畫。因為我們的金管會主委彭金榮主委已經說了他希望促成金融的獨角獸,到目前為止他沒有錢。然後剛剛講的金控興趣缺缺,如果國發基金可以挹注的話,我相信除了環境部還有金管會這邊都應該可以促成賴總統他的政見能夠早日的完成。 院長"},{"start":264.434,"end":292.772,"text":"金融科技也是重要的,好嗎?沒有錯,我們從國內金融,我們當然希望它更開放、更國際、更自由,所以更創新是其中必要的表現。謝謝部長,那你既然已經上來了,我們就討論一下這個事吧。這是基隆的協和電廠。協和電廠在8月的臺電的官網,在8月的時候還告訴我們基隆人說,我們3號、4號會在2024年的年底要除役。"},{"start":293.496,"end":315.676,"text":"這是今年8月都還在這樣說可是最近我們再去問他現在的經濟部說臺電說新的燃氣組大概7年後會上線協和3號4號還是要繼續運轉所以現在部長你們知道他們要除役還是不除役目前按照規劃是要除役要除役那他現在還要再運轉那現在是到底誰在說謊"},{"start":316.791,"end":341.121,"text":"現在其實他是在緊急備用而已備用 這就是我的問題了 院長這個協和電廠他是燒重油的他燒油每發一度電他是成本就要7塊半他賣一度電只拿回3塊也就是在協和電廠燃油每發一度電就賠4.5塊他去年一整年發了24.2億的電他賠了上百億 請問"},{"start":346.271,"end":347.832,"text":"我們是管制他不能超過一定的時數。 是,所以這個部分我是覺得啦。"},{"start":376.089,"end":404.632,"text":"如果要這樣子下去重點是這一句話今年520院長上任然後我們的經濟部長非常快速的接受媒體的專訪然後說了一句世界必推動沒有替代方案世界還在環評環評的過程還在討論現在還在不見在5月份的時候我們的經濟部長就直接說沒有替代方案然後環境部長跑出來說"},{"start":406.55,"end":428.898,"text":"我們堅守專業嚴守立場。 彭部長我很佩服你,你說了一句話,環境部不是經濟部的環保署,所以今天要問的是院長。 一個還在環評階段的過程,經濟部可以這樣子隨意的說出沒有替代方案嗎?"},{"start":430.029,"end":431.791,"text":"環境部做好環境保護的各種評鑑的責任。 但是經濟部的台電"},{"start":444.599,"end":446.96,"text":"萬一環評沒有過呢?萬一環評沒有過呢?萬一環評沒有過呢?"},{"start":446.96,"end":449.22,"text":"院長,沒有替代方這件事情不應該是出自於行政首長。"},{"start":461.204,"end":479.832,"text":"而是我們要如何尊重環境部的專業審查,然後去找替代方案。 任何一個州長為了他的業務,他必須要勇敢地去執行。 執行的過程當中,環境部所有的規定他都必須要遵守。好,重點是院長遵守環境部的環評委員的專業審查吧。"},{"start":481.442,"end":489.25,"text":"我們從過去到現在一直對於環評的過程是很重視的。所以萬一沒有過是不是要找替代方案?"},{"start":489.25,"end":495.397,"text":"院長你不要告訴我你的答案也是沒有替代方案。不要說萬一沒有過,如果真的沒有過那協和電廠以後就沒有辦法發電了。你會不會找替代方案?現在"},{"start":499.568,"end":528.918,"text":"目前是還沒有想到任何的替代方案,因為現在還在努力環評的過程。所以院長,我希望的是您的部分一樣尊重專業。當然。再講一次,環境部不是經濟部的環保署。對,一直都不是。是,所以我很,我希望部長能夠堅守這個專業,尤其是如果真的沒有通過,我們真的要有替代方案,好嗎,院長。好,接下來部長請回,我請邱部長。"},{"start":545.224,"end":570.082,"text":"委員好部長你曾經在您代當立委的時候代團去日本考察長照保險是嗎?包委員我們去日本考察是考察長照政策所以整個長照政策其實也是我想您接任衛福部長最重要的工作接下來大家都知道明年我們就是超高齡社會15年後老人會占30%25年後老人會占40%"},{"start":574.984,"end":595.884,"text":"這是一個非常非常快速老化的社會。 現在的長照相關的經費政府撥了每年八九百億。 院長也很認真把各部會的錢全部加進來大概有九百多億。 這是一件好事但是長照的經費長期來說它有一個很嚴重的問題是不夠不穩。"},{"start":598.021,"end":623.779,"text":"什麼叫不夠呢現在的支出從之前長照基金還算收入大於支出可是在這兩年已經開始你可以看到從106年開辦到現在113年已經少了40幾億然後今年明年預估的我們有支出要879億收入大概只有758億其他大概都要靠政府的挹注所以長照基金"},{"start":624.301,"end":643.013,"text":"即將日不復出也就是在高度老化的情況下長照基金可能會越來越不穩然後不穩的原因是什麼院長這是最嚴重的問題因為他來自於不確定醫政稅不健康的菸酒稅"},{"start":643.926,"end":670.433,"text":"還有炒房的跟景氣有關的房地合一稅這三樣東西來自所謂的不確定政府要靠有錢人或者是很多的遺產突然一個企業家過世我們才會有突然間大筆的一陣稅所以這個金額你可以從幾億到幾百億不一定所以它是一個不穩定的財源第二個是不健康"},{"start":672.393,"end":697.534,"text":"菸酒稅是一個很不健康的稅,部長對吧?你很希望很多菸酒稅嗎?以衛福部的立場是菸酒稅越少越好對不對?是,所以你看,院長可以看到我們現在的菸酒稅它其實大概已經到頂了,200多億,而且在減少中,表示衛福部的宣導還是有些功效。這是好事,但是這個財稅、財源不穩。"},{"start":700.066,"end":729.304,"text":"第三個部分是房地合一稅從這個金額您可以看到從幾十億到現在112年房地合一稅高達500多億所以你會發現我們長照的錢購其實它是來自於一個投機炒作的錢這個錢跟景氣有關而且也是要碰運氣所以院長這幾樣稅源其實都不是太穩定這是我們認為長照到今天為止大家認為說好像還可以可是未來的幾年我們非常非常的憂心"},{"start":730.831,"end":759.194,"text":"另外就是我不知道部長你覺得現在我們的長照涵蓋率跟我們做得好不好?部長你要不告訴我你現在覺得長照做得好不好?長照我們一定全力讓他不要遺漏任何一個需要長照但是現在剛剛前面林培祥委員所說的外籍看護的部分其實他不在長照涵蓋率裡面他是靠著外籍勞工來分擔政府長照的責任"},{"start":759.995,"end":784.2,"text":"接下去的65歲以上的人口目前按照衛福部的推估將來每10個人就1.3個人是失能依照這個推估的話到去年我們將近有86萬的失能者但是有十幾萬人其實是沒有來使用所謂的長照服務也就是說剛剛部長說的有人被漏掉了中間可能有一半一大半是用了外籍看護工"},{"start":785.649,"end":814.759,"text":"所以部長今天我要討論的是長照保險在去年11月的民調家庭照顧者協會他們做的民調90%的民眾是願意自己先出一點點錢將來照顧自己多一點比照全民健保全民納保的概念80%的民眾贊成用全民健保的方式來推動長照保險而且現在坊間的商業保險也非常多的長照險"},{"start":815.43,"end":825.519,"text":"所以 院長、部長這件事情我希望成為臺灣未來長照的先河就是兩位。報告委員"},{"start":826.274,"end":854.339,"text":"台灣是比日本在更短的時間內進入到高齡社會,所以日本的例子我們當然可以來當參考,但是無法完全的補充。所以我知道我們要建立一個更好的制度,所以這是德國在1995年他們人口佔比15%的時候就推動了。日本是在2000年推動,當時的老年人是17,那更重要跟我們相近的2008年的南韓,他也推動長照線。"},{"start":855.339,"end":883.648,"text":"而且現在目前為止全國的我們全世界大概投入在OECD國家平均投入長照費用經費的部分應該是在GDP1%1.7%臺灣只佔0.26%也就是我們政府的挹注其實不夠所以長照保險讓人民出一點讓政府出一點讓大家為了自己的未來都出一點這個是我們希望"},{"start":884.827,"end":902.222,"text":"部長你去考察過,你的想法是什麼?是,我想我們這幾年來,我想委員非常重視社區的一個力量,過去也幫忙非常多所以我們希望長照成為我們社區政府,最後我想我時間有限,跟院長一個"},{"start":903.915,"end":917.48,"text":"這個就是長照險應該是最基礎的,上面你可以去買商業保險,就像醫療險一樣,接下去才是家庭互助,最後才是自費市場。但是沒有長照險的情況下,現在就叫做長照杯葛,現在就叫做……"},{"start":937.981,"end":945.136,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告委員會,現在在議場二樓旁聽起的是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時20分）謝謝主席。請卓院長，還有邱部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長好、部長好。我想請問兩位都滿65歲了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：已經滿了，所以院長您打過疫苗了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：打過。"],["黃委員珊珊：打了，今年打了？剛打？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，上半年打過。"],["黃委員珊珊：上半年打過，10月1號的流感疫苗跟新冠疫苗你打了嗎？沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年的流感疫苗我在年中的時候打過。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長呢？10月1號開打的，你打了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我10月1號公開施打，兩個都打。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。院長知道最近我們打疫苗的人數嗎？到10月20號，流感疫苗有555萬人，但是新冠疫苗只有56萬人，部長，發生了什麼事，為什麼差這麼大？不是「左流右新」嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：可是差距是十倍！一個是五百多萬人，一個是五十萬，你買了600萬劑，現在只打了56萬劑，我們是發生什麼事情、什麼問題？要怎麼宣導？"],["邱部長泰源：所以第一個宣導就是，10月1號我就去左流右冠……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以太少人，是不知道還是不敢打新冠疫苗？"],["邱部長泰源：首先講流感疫苗，流感疫苗基本上大家都搶著願意打啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦！部長、院長，我的問題是這600萬劑要打的話，如果以現在的宣導速度我覺得有點慢，是不是可以再多加宣導，讓大家知道今年要打兩劑？剛剛院長都說他打過，但是他不知道今年10月還可以打兩劑，一個是流感，一個是新冠，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，加油，宣導一下，不然明年又要報廢了，去年的庫存可能有270萬劑也要報廢。時間暫停，部長請回，這個直接問院長好了，院長，我現在很簡單的問一下。部長可以請回。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：我簡單問一下，賴清德總統說要推動亞洲金融科技創新中心，這是非常重要的政策，看起來目前為止我們金融科技其實有在推，但大部分是民間在推，可是國內的金控公司對於轉投資所謂的新創，其實從我們調他們的資料來看，除了凱基金超過100億以上，其他幾乎興趣缺缺，總金額占它的淨值不到5%，也就是說金融創新在金融業並不是那麼受歡迎。","然後現在我們看到了，很多的單位都來向院長要錢，環境部要做綠色成長基金，文化部已經拿到「文化創意產業」，將近98億；「智慧健康」相關的部分，國發基金9月6號也是大概給它百億的基金，然後綠色成長的部分，環境部現在又要提出一個百億基金，四個百億基金。我現在在這邊幫金管會請命，院長，是不是可以有第五支箭，促成國內金融科技的獨角獸，比照這四大基金？"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員，您也待過地方政府，你也知道，行政單位……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，因為這是國發基金裡面可以動用的錢，所以如果可以的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政單位面對這些需求的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長已經跟您申請了，院長，我認為金融科技發展也是重要的，所以環境部這筆錢要不要得到，金融科技是不是院長也考慮一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有周延的計畫，我們在財政能力上可以的話，我們當然希望能夠五箭齊發。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為金管會彭金隆主委已經說了，他希望促成金融的獨角獸，到目前為止他沒有錢。然後剛剛講的，金控興趣缺缺，如果國發基金可以挹注的話，我相信除了環境部，還有金管會，都應該可以促成賴總統他的政見能夠早日的完成。院長，金融科技也是重要的，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，我們從國內金融，我們當然希望它更開放、更國際、更自由，所以更創新是其中必要的表現。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝部長，既然你已經上來了，我們就討論一下這個事吧！這個是基隆的協和電廠，台電的官網在8月的時候還告訴基隆人說，協和3號、4號會在2024年年底除役。今年8月都還在這樣說，可是最近我們再去問他，現在的經濟部說，台電說新的燃氣組大概7年後會上線，協和3號、4號還是要繼續運轉。所以現在部長，你們知道它們要除役還是不除役嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前按照規劃是要除役。"],["黃委員珊珊：要除役？那它現在還要再運轉，現在到底是誰在說謊？"],["彭部長啓明：現在其實它是在緊急備用而已，有一定時數的限制。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這就是我的問題了，這個協和電廠是燒重油的，它燒油每發一度電，成本就要7塊半，但它賣一度電只拿回3塊，也就是說，協和電廠燃油每發一度電就賠4.5塊，而它去年一整年發了24.2億的電，它賠了上百億。請問如果不除役，要繼續這樣賠下去嗎？這個要蓋到新的機組弄好大概要7年，這7年都要做緊急用電，但是它還要發這麼貴的電嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：它如果除役，那緊急備用，它是一個備用的備援系統。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你的備援，它也是用這樣的方式，你要留多少人力？有相關的計畫，環境部知道他們的計畫嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是管制它不能超過一定時數。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以這個部分我是覺得如果要這樣子下去，重點是這一句話，今年520院長上任，經濟部長非常快速的接受媒體的專訪，然後說了一句：四接必推動，沒有替代方案。四接還在環評，環評的過程還在討論，現在還在補件，但在5月份的時候，我們的經濟部長就直接說，沒有替代方案。然後環境部長跑出來說，我們堅守專業、嚴守立場。彭部長，我很佩服你，你說了一句話，環境部不是經濟部的環保署。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天要問的是院長，一個還在環評階段的過程，經濟部可以這樣隨意的說出沒有替代方案嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部做好環境保護……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果沒有替代方案的話，表示環境部就只能買單囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部做好環境保護的各種評鑑的責任……"],["黃委員珊珊：它要做環評，環評不是經濟部說了算。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是經濟部下的台電的協和電廠就是要用天然氣來橋接，所以它必須轉換成……"],["黃委員珊珊：萬一環評沒有過呢？萬一環評沒有過呢？萬一環評沒有過呢？院長，沒有替代方案這件事情不應該是出自於行政首長，而是我們要如何尊重環境部的專業審查，然後去找替代方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：任何一個首長，為了他的業務，他必須要勇敢的去執行……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我要講的是，如果院長也是這個態度的話，我覺得這樣很可怕。"],["卓院長榮泰：執行的過程當中，環境部所有的規定他都必須要遵守。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，重點是院長遵守環境部的環評委員的專業審查吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從過去到現在一直對於環評的過程是很重視的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以萬一沒有過，是不是要找替代方案？院長，你不要告訴我你的答案也是沒有替代方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：不要說萬一沒有過，如果真的沒有過，協和電廠以後就沒有辦法發電。"],["黃委員珊珊：你會不會找替代方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是還沒有想到任何的替代方案，因為現在還在努力環評的過程。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以院長，我希望的是您的部分一樣要尊重專業。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：我再講一次，環境部不是經濟部的環保署。"],["彭部長啓明：一直都不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我希望部長能夠堅守這個專業，尤其是如果真的沒有通過，我們真的要有替代方案，院長，好嗎？","接下來，部長請回，我請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你曾經在當立委的時候帶團去日本考察長照保險，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們去日本考察是考察全面的政策。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以整個長照政策其實也是你接任衛福部長最重要的工作。接下來，大家都知道明年我們就是超高齡社會，15年後老人會占30%，25年後老人會占40%，這是一個非常非常快速老化的社會。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在長照相關的經費政府每年撥了八、九百億，院長也很認真，把各部會的錢全部加進來，大概有九百多億，這是一件好事，但是長期來說，長照的經費有一個很嚴重的問題是不夠、不穩，什麼叫不夠呢？之前長照基金還算收入大於支出，可是在這兩年開始你可以看到，從106年開辦到現在，113年已經少了四十幾億，預估明年的支出要879億，收入大概只有758億，其他大概都要靠政府挹注，所以長照基金即將入不敷出。","也就是在高度老化的情況下，長照基金可能會越來越不穩，不穩的原因是什麼？院長，這是最嚴重的問題，因為它來自於不確定的遺贈稅、不健康的菸酒稅，還有跟炒房、景氣有關的房地合一稅。這三樣東西來自所謂的不確定，政府要靠有錢人或者是很多的遺產，比如突然有一個企業家過世，才會突然間有大筆的遺贈稅，這個金額可以從幾億到幾百億不一定，所以它是一個不穩定的財源。","第二個是不健康，菸酒稅是一個很不健康的稅，部長，對吧？你希望收很多菸酒稅嗎？以衛福部的立場，是菸酒稅越少越好，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望民眾儘量不要抽菸、不要抽酒。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以院長可以看到現在菸酒稅大概已經到頂了、兩百多億而且在減少中，表示衛福部的宣導還是有些功效。這是好事，但是這個財源不穩。第三個部分是房地合一稅，從這個金額您可以看到，從幾十億到112年高達五百多億，所以你會發現長照的錢夠，其實是來自於一個投機炒作的錢。這個錢跟景氣有關而且也是要碰運氣，所以院長，這幾樣稅源都不是太穩定，長照到今天為止，大家認為好像還可以，可是未來的幾年，我們非常憂心。","另外，我不知道部長覺得現在我們的長照涵蓋率做得好不好？部長，你要不要告訴我，你覺得現在長照做得好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定全力讓長照不要遺漏任何一個需要長照的人。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是剛剛前面林沛祥委員所說的外籍看護，其實不在長照涵蓋率裡面，而是靠著外籍勞工來分擔政府長照的責任。接下去，65歲以上的人口目前按照衛福部的推估，將來每10個人就有1.3個人失能，依照這個推估的話，到去年有將近86萬的失能者，但是有十幾萬人沒有使用所謂的長照服務。也就是剛剛部長說的，有人被漏掉，中間可能有一大半是用了外籍看護工，所以今天我要討論的是長照保險。根據去年11月家庭照護者協會所做的民調，90%的民眾是願意自己先出一點點錢，將來照顧自己多一點，比照全民健保、全民納保的概念；80%的民眾贊成用全民健保的方式來推動長照保險，而且現在坊間的商業保險也有推非常多的長照險。院長、部長，針對這件事情，我希望兩位成為臺灣未來長照的先河。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣是比日本在更短的時間內進入到高齡社會……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["邱部長泰源：所以日本的例子我們當然可以當參考，但是無法完全比照。"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，我們要建立一個更好的制度，德國在1995年、老年人占比15%的時候就推動了；日本是在2000年推動，當時的老年人占比是17%；更重要的是，跟我們相近、2008年的南韓，也推動長照險。而且目前為止，OECD國家平均投入長照險、長照費用的經費應該是占GDP1.7%，臺灣只占0.26%，也就是我們政府的挹注其實不夠。所以長照保險讓人民出一點、讓政府出一點，讓大家為了自己的未來都出一點，這個是我們希望的。部長，你去考察過，你的想法是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我想我們這幾年來，委員非常重視社區的力量，過去也幫忙非常多。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我們希望長照成為我們社區、政府……","最後，我時間有限，請院長看簡報，長照險應該是最基礎的，上面的話你可以去買商業保險，就像醫療險一樣，接下去才是家庭互助，最後才是自費市場。但是沒有長照險的情況下，現在就叫做長照悲歌，現在就是很多人必須要自己辭職、自己下來照顧。所以部長、院長，我希望長照保險成為卓院長未來規劃的方向，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個很好的思考的方向，我們可以來研究，但是不一定完全copy。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長都考察過了，他應該很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我會請教部長。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在議場2樓旁聽席的是高雄市橋頭區環保促進會的朋友，我們在這邊歡迎他們。","下一位請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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只會往上走可是生產人生產子的人越來越少那如果說高齡人口越來越多供需早就供應不足或者是這個看護的話那請問院長您知不知時80歲以上"},{"start":599.319,"end":624.711,"text":"甚至70到79歲患有癌症二期的人免除巴氏量表即可申請外籍看護員看護工呢?現在多元免評裡面的條件就可以他不一定要巴氏量表他是可以申請到看護的不過很多時候他們還是就是說還是需要巴氏量表的話如果說只是單純不一定需要巴氏量表巴氏量表是剛剛說過他可能要"},{"start":625.615,"end":642.997,"text":"去做某一種功能跟目的去申請一些補助如果沒有這些事情他完全不需要其實院長這就是為什麼巴士量表這個案這問題上他會讓大家覺得很不舒服不管是長照機構還是醫生還是各方面這個巴士量表人家又戲稱為功德量表"},{"start":643.666,"end":644.046,"text":"那如果說一定會過嗎?"},{"start":656.823,"end":684.356,"text":"老實講我們有太多我們現在法令上看到所遇到的狀況是說單純的是說他們需要巴士量表那他們一定要巴士量表他們才能過關可是因為他們的狀況不是完全符合院長你剛剛講提這個多元的這個這個多元的狀況請部長答覆一下現在用吧好是的我想剛剛院長跟部長勞動部部長都有提到我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人"},{"start":684.98,"end":713.579,"text":"那我們其實在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情那醫界的意見還是覺得有他的價值所以來篩檢一些但是他的年齡幾歲這個可以來討論這樣子你知道部長那我們就這樣講好了因為巴氏量表你知道如果成功申請一個巴氏量表從開始申請到成功申請到外勞動性要多久時間嗎"},{"start":715.814,"end":733.921,"text":"六個月 三個月你去申請 三個月他就安排外勞過來 六個月的時間我自己有個朋友他在六個月的時間他媽媽出現狀況之後他六個月的時間他不能申請外勞 他每天花三千塊一年花了四十五萬"},{"start":734.941,"end":740.063,"text":"我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴士量表就得到申請"},{"start":761.704,"end":783.656,"text":"另外一半可能他本身他符合這個巴斯亮表的規定,另外一半是不用,人數大概有6萬人左右,是不用巴斯亮表的規定。我們已經全面在放寬,巴斯亮表有它存在的一些功能。為什麼我特意提80歲以上,為什麼我把它降低到70歲以上,為什麼是80歲以上,因為80歲以上在健康來講,在醫院在醫療來講,是高風險族群。"},{"start":790.578,"end":791.219,"text":"刊錄工供給面的顧慮跟他的分析請部長答覆一下。"},{"start":811.331,"end":838.049,"text":"主要是如果我只用80歲來當一個界限的話,因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面,其實健康的人還是非常多啦。那麼我們現在是一個缺工的時代,因為我們也同時在跟日本在韓國在競爭在搶這樣的看護工,所以就怕來這邊的就會變看護工在家工作,然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧。"},{"start":840.17,"end":863.699,"text":"我們關區工的問題老實講我們現在有這麼多勞工但是老實說我們也很多外籍勞工在落跑對吧我們有差不多幾成我記得當初跟我講三成還是更高外籍勞工我們找了22萬人不少人現在是找不到的那變成是說外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道所以我剛剛有特地提到說能不能把外籍看護工"},{"start":864.119,"end":890.703,"text":"不是用這個每個總平均薪資差不多2萬3每日工作10個小時來去做,而是直接把它納入長老體系,讓他們待遇可以好一點,讓他們可以願意在台灣留久一點,他們願意工作比較實際一點,比較實在一點,我覺得這是下一步,如果巴士量表,我還是認為巴士量表應該考慮說,因為部長也好,院長也好,80歲離我們很近,而且隨時都會拔豆,"},{"start":892.205,"end":913.998,"text":"一個跌倒本來很健康的人馬上就變失智有沒有可能有我身邊看到好多這種狀況那等到說你跌倒之後再急急忙忙去找一個外勞老實說他本來就需要他本來就有資格但是如果他如果沒有用如果老實說沒有人希望被如果沒有一個年長者會希望被人家看扶著跟老人一樣沒有人會希望"},{"start":914.438,"end":914.918,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":947.735,"end":949.934,"text":"下一位請黃珊珊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時4分）謝謝主席，有請院長跟邱部長。"],["主席：請院長還有邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長、邱部長。我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到三班醫護比，我記得今年總統大選的時候提到希望能降到1比6，我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心。三班醫護比目前的狀況，今年公告的醫院三班護病比標準是經過大家的研議，我們預計兩年後要入法，當然這中間必須要跟醫護團體、跟各級醫院代表共同協商，三方才能夠取得共識。"],["林委員沛祥：所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們目前當然一直在督促所有醫院，不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班，都能夠達到我們現在訂定的護病比，並同時給予獎勵。"],["林委員沛祥：好，部長，那我也順便再問一下，我們全臺灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題，請問對於現在護士短缺，你有什麼改善方案嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：現在是這樣子，如果我們比較1月的時候到現在……在大家的努力之下、委員關心、我們行政院也有很多措施，比較1月，我們增加了3,095人，在醫院這個部分也增加了1,513人，我們預計明年能夠增加到7,500人。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，其實你也知道、我也知道，這是遠遠不夠、滿足不了需求的。老實說，為什麼我這麼關注這個問題，因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會，這點你知道！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員沛祥：而且你也知道國發會方面，未來是明年才進入超高齡社會，但是今年，就我這邊的資料，嘉義縣、臺中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上人口超過65歲以上，所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候，現在護士的吃重就變得比以前更嚴重。老實說，2026年可能全臺灣正式會進入超高齡社會，變成全臺灣人口裡面有21%、2,400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。而如果以國發會給我的資料，在2036年，也就是在12年之後，我們高達28%，所謂的極高齡化社會，這是國發會給我的資料，甚至說可能這個速度還會更快！那我就想請問部長，以你的專業，世界上有哪個國家目前已經進入極高齡社會的？"],["邱部長泰源：我想日本比我們更早。"],["林委員沛祥：日本嘛，好。所以日本的話，其實日本是大家希望我們未來社會國家變成的一個典範。可是院長，老實說，有一句話我們都不想提，叫「生不如死」，但是生不如死，我講的不是其他的，就是單單純純對高齡化社會來講，如果不能健康舒適的生活，那麼長壽搞不好是另外一種折磨，對於自己也好，還是對於自己所愛的人也好。所以為什麼我會一直針對三班醫護比，因為這是在醫療的時候就會遇到的狀況。可是在社會來講，部長，所謂的扶老比，也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲上的比例，2014年全臺灣只有16.19%，也就是16%左右，可是在今年就已經高達將近28%，短短10年之間，我們達到12%的人、到65歲以上，再來2027年可能將近33%。所以這個問題就是跟我們說，我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機，但是高齡化的社會，也是個國安危機喔！少子化加高齡化社會加起來是個所謂的完美風暴！變成我們是個沒有競爭、競爭力衰退，而且不幸福的國家。如果當越來越多65歲以下的工作人口去照顧65歲以上的人的話，那實質上，我們的經濟競爭力一定會往下掉。院長，您說是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，年齡的兩端，年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢，所以我們在年輕的部分有零到六歲國家養，儘量鼓勵大家生養；在高齡的部分，我們從長照2.0要進到長照3.0；中間這一段我們用很多的社會投資、家庭支持來彌補這樣的一個過程。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長謝謝，既然您也認同高齡人口的照護是我們直視、直接面對國安危機很重要的一塊，我就必須把這件事拿出來講──巴氏量表。依據監察院的調查報告，在111年的時候就已經有將近53萬個老人家需要家庭看護，其實登錄在服務體系的照護人員卻不到10萬人。我們引進了外籍看護工三十多年，到目前有22萬人在支撐整個家庭的需求，但是說真的，很多在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴氏量表的這個關卡。請問院長知道因為用巴氏量表申請外籍看護工而衍生出哪些問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：巴氏量表的制度存在多年，現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途而存在。現在要申請一個看護，我們有多元免評的方式，其實巴氏量表只是多元當中的一種條件，沒有巴氏量表，還可以有其他的條件可以完成，比方說經過長照需求6個月以上的服務，或是輕度失智症，已經放寬很多……"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我其實不是故意要打斷你，因為我覺得這件事我想問，剛剛邱部長有講到，日本是極高齡社會的國家，日本有沒有用巴氏量表？日本有沒有採用巴氏量表？還是請衛福部或勞動部部長？請問日本有沒有使用巴氏量表？如果日本是已經進入極高齡社會的國家的話，事實上他們對長照……我們也知道日本的長照系統、長照照護比我們臺灣好，請問日本使不使用巴氏量表？是不是除了巴氏量表之外，還有其他的方法可以鑑定老人家需要照護呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，其他國家不一定有巴氏量表，我剛剛跟委員報告的是，巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些功能，比方他在申請一些健康輔具上必須要有的資格認定等等，而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場有一點點平衡的作用，但是現在不需要巴氏量表，還是可以經過多元免評以其他的條件申請到僱傭，這才是重點。"],["林委員沛祥：我在這邊為什麼要特地講到這個？因為老實說，如果讓扶老比繼續往上爬的話，說真的對我們國家的競爭力，就不講別人，對我們這一輩的人來說只會愈來愈辛苦，而且我們知道，這樣的社會是會來的。所以既然外籍看護是長照系統中重要的人力，我建議把他們適合的整合進長照系統。","因為老實講，如果你分成兩個路徑甚至是互相排擠的話，對於整個臺灣未來會遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助。甚至這樣講，我直接這樣講好了，去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人，其中因為照顧65歲的家人而無法工作的人超過15萬人，而且這15萬人大多數是女性，不管對女性的工作權益也好，還是對社會生產力也好，都是一個很大的損傷。院長，您認為呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度，除了剛剛說的之外，我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式，讓需要照顧、需要陪伴的人可以更有彈性、更機動地去得到一些必要的協助。"],["林委員沛祥：老實講，我們都一直在講高齡人口愈來愈多，我剛剛提供的數據，還是邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道這是很嚴重的危機，因為臺灣的平均年齡只會往上走，可是生孩子的人卻愈來愈少。如果高齡人口愈來愈多，看護的供需早就供應不足，請問院長您支不支持80歲以上，甚至是70歲到79歲患有癌症二期的人，可以免除巴氏量表，即可申請外籍看護員、看護工呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在符合多元免評裡面的條件就可以，不一定要做巴氏量表，他是可以申請到看護的。"],["林委員沛祥：不過很多時候他們還是……譬如還是需要巴氏量表的話，如果只是幫……需要巴氏量表。"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定需要巴氏量表，我剛剛說過，他可能要去做某一種功能和目的，去申請一些補助，如果沒有這些事情，他完全不需要。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，其實這就是為什麼巴氏量表這個問題上面會讓人家覺得很不舒服，不管是長照機構，還是醫生，還是各方面，巴氏量表被人家又戲稱為功德量表，變成是醫生不開會被罵，醫生開了也被罵，然後如果一堆狀況因為巴氏量表一直衍生出來，大家都很頭痛……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有巴氏量表，他還是可以申請到看護啊！"],["林委員沛祥：一定會過嗎？老實講，有太多我們現在法令上看到、遇到的狀況，單純的是說他們需要巴氏量表，一定要巴氏量表，他們才能過關，可是他們的狀況不是完全符合院長剛剛提的多元的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復一下，現在用巴氏量表的情況。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我想剛剛院長及勞動部部長都有提到，我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人，我們在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情，那醫界的意見還是覺得有它的價值，可以來篩減一些，但是他的年齡幾歲可以來討論。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我們就這樣講好了，如果成功申請，一個巴氏量表，從開始申請到成功申請到外勞，你知道中間要多久時間嗎？6個月，3個月你去申請過了之後，3個月他就要安排外勞過來，6個月的時間。我自己有一個朋友，他媽媽出現狀況之後，他6個月的時間不能申請外勞，他每天花3,000塊，一年花了45萬。像這樣的案子，不會是個例，不會是特例，而是通例的時候，是不是可以cut the quite short，是不是可以把這個冗長的程序儘量減少，讓我們的民眾可以多輕鬆一點呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們……"],["林委員沛祥：一天3,000塊。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴氏量表就得到申請了，另外一半可能本身符合巴氏量表的規定，另外一半是不用，人數大概有6萬人左右，是不用巴氏量表的情形。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，這是我擔心的地方，因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經全面在放寬，巴氏量表有它存在的一些功能和目的。"],["林委員沛祥：為什麼我特意提80歲以上，為什麼不把它降低到70歲以上，為什麼是80歲以上？因為在健康來講、在醫院及醫療來講，80歲以上是高風險族群，隨時一個跌倒，本來很健康的人馬上就癱瘓，馬上就需要幫忙，這個是最重要的原因，為什麼提80歲以上，還有70到79歲患有癌症二期的，因為他們身體本來就虛弱。"],["卓院長榮泰：看護工供給面的顧慮及它的分析，請部長答復一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，跟委員報告，主要是如果用80歲來當一個界線的話，因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面健康的人還是非常多，而且我們現在是一個缺工的時代，我們也同時跟日本、韓國在競爭、在搶這樣的看護工，所以就怕來這邊的……"],["林委員沛祥：老實講，有關缺工的問題……"],["何部長佩珊：會變成看護工在挑工作……"],["林委員沛祥：有關缺工的問題，其實……"],["何部長佩珊：然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧，主要是有這個顧慮。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，有關缺工的問題，老實講，我們現在有這麼多勞工，但是我們也很多外籍勞工「落跑」，對吧！我記得當初跟我講三成，還是更高？外籍勞工我們找來22萬人，不少人現在是找不到的。外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道，所以我剛剛有特地提到，能不能把外籍看護工不是用總平均薪資二萬三、每日工作10個小時這樣子去做，而是直接納入長照體系……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員沛祥：讓他們待遇可以好一點，讓他們願意在臺灣留久一點，讓他們工作比較實在一點，我覺得這是下一步。我還是認為巴氏量表應該考慮說……因為部長也好，院長也好，80歲離我們很近，而且隨時都會跌倒，一個跌倒，本來很健康的人馬上就變失智，有沒有可能？有，我身邊看到好多這種狀況，如果等到跌倒之後，再急急忙忙去找一個外勞，他本來就需要，他本來就有資格，老實說，沒有一個年長者會希望被人家扶著，跟老人一樣，沒有人會希望，但是他需要的時候我們卻不能直接給他，要麻煩這些現在在職場上工作的人去照顧他，除了情何以堪之外，這對我們自己的經濟壓力負擔有多大！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員，外籍看護工進入長照體系，我們是支持的，我們現在推的多元陪伴服務方案就是往這個方向在進行。"],["林委員沛祥：我會認為巴氏量表的問題是不是可以考慮看看？因為80歲很容易出事，這是一個分水嶺。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":137.706,"end":165.308,"text":"這個院長你對於這個三行下相關的一個工作如期如資的完工有沒有信心啊?謝謝委員首先他整個設計是非常施工上非常難的所以他新建好之後他應該會成為一個世界的焦點所以我才希望有那個期許那明年四、五月份吧北廊道能夠先行使用雖然他整個暫停還沒有好"},{"start":166.89,"end":191.082,"text":"飛機降落之後可以用北廊道來進到我們現有的航廈裡面這個是應該可以如期做我現在比較擔心的是它後續啊因為在這個呃包承包的工程上面有一些人力上的欠缺那我也有請陳部長一定要緊速的去把這些事情能夠完成也請淘汰公司能夠針對問題做有效的管控"},{"start":192.403,"end":208.526,"text":"那部長你有沒有細心阿,2027我們整個T3完工可以啟用,你有沒有細心?是,報告委員,我們北郎廳的部分沒有問題啦,那主體行下委員也一直都很關心,所以我們也特別有跟這個民航局也好,或是淘汰公司也好,一直在研商這個"},{"start":209.207,"end":209.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":233.595,"end":255.32,"text":"好,事實上淘機這個一波三折啊,它的坦克路啊,事實上從2013年,我們當時就寫覺得一、二航廈不太夠,當時就覺得我們要做第三航廈。所以這麼早,已經十幾年前了,2013年的時候,就已經把總顧問啊,標出去了,由荷蘭的機場的一個顧問公司啊,"},{"start":255.9,"end":256.04,"text":"魯明哲議員"},{"start":270.885,"end":273.208,"text":"二、20月22日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":286.145,"end":289.868,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":307.723,"end":309.184,"text":"三行下能順利運作的工程?"},{"start":326.226,"end":326.966,"text":"那我要提一個"},{"start":351.291,"end":368.53,"text":"有可能是微爆彈,事實上媒體記者已經報了,已經說了嘛,那到底是什麼情況?我想首先請教一下部長,因為你在1月20,抱歉抱歉,9月26號,在交通委員會那天我主持會議,特別委員問到PMS,就這個系統,"},{"start":370.512,"end":370.672,"text":"一、二、三呢?"},{"start":399.58,"end":408.874,"text":"我們決定了不用軌道了我們要突破全世界最低我們就用自家電吧我們認為技術已經成熟了那這個的部分"},{"start":410.424,"end":436.893,"text":"部長你之前已經一個月啦你承諾一個月嘛一個月了解問題PMS到底出了什麼問題現在解決狀況如何?他目前是這個樣子就是說廠商跟廠商之間上包商跟下包商之間有些合約上面的問題啦那他們目前正在解決當中那他有可能不想用那個李立這間公司陳昱不想用李立這間公司但這個部分他們還在合約的協商當中那我目前還在找看裡面有什麼問題"},{"start":437.913,"end":438.873,"text":"我沒有像部長這麼了解"},{"start":466.325,"end":483.258,"text":"那我跟你講遇到什麼問題因為我覺得有急迫性當部長或是說院長你們覺得我們來研究處理在找問題的時候現在問題火已經燒起來你們有什麼時間去找你如果現在不解決它是2月19號開工的"},{"start":484.679,"end":506.537,"text":"第一期要交報告是NTP加180點6個月8月底不是現在已經10月了在9月8月8月底就要陸續分包商設計報告要審查所以現在現在你知道嗎在系統系統分包商就如你說的還有生意還在吵架中啊那這個東西"},{"start":508.879,"end":531.214,"text":"這個到底發生了什麼事呢?我跟你講,本來是軌道工程,全世界我相信院長、部長還有我們主委,世界各國走一走,大概用軌道工程的居多,串接的居多。那現在到底發生什麼事呢?自動電發其實本來是軌道的。在108年10月,當時林佳龍部長主持一個會議,"},{"start":532.469,"end":555.817,"text":"那我不講後面有沒有用意阿 因為這個沒有意義 我們談一個問題齁 組織一個會議 後面在整個會議結論中 壓了一個小字 請機場公司研究一下 在T3整體十幾個標案中間 有沒有其他的 除了主體工程之外 有沒有其他的部分可以減省費用阿 那就 你這樣講就好了嘛 瓜胡 盧"},{"start":558.154,"end":558.594,"text":"李克運輸系統"},{"start":576.812,"end":590.205,"text":"自駕巴士這個模式來取代工程。 到了去年112年的12月就決標了今年2月開始啟動了所以現在已經大概動了7個多月"},{"start":591.616,"end":617.381,"text":"到了NTP加270天9個月之後不好意思喔所有的審查都要告一段落只剩下一個多月了所以我們現在在研究什麼呢研究我們出體工程我們院長這麼費心就算缺工的問題應該我是覺得就算2027沒有完成2028也會完成可是如果你的在管制區內管制區內他不能出來他要到T1、T2"},{"start":619.502,"end":621.485,"text":"陳柱惠你自己上來了,因為上次我在交友會我也有質詢。"},{"start":633.896,"end":647.325,"text":"現在簡單來說嘛就是去年年底發生了什麼事呢決定自動電巴的時候去年年底招標嘛那三個團隊三組團隊來投標參與嘛誰來標到這17.5億17.45億的一個標案結果絕標了還不是絕標了那各位看到圖上第一組就是得標拿到獎盃的得標的廠商啊承應"},{"start":659.073,"end":663.776,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":682.162,"end":711.164,"text":"我那天跟你講的現在卡了已經事實上已經要交報告了系統商還在吵架這個到底是我們當時你知道嗎選人是怎麼選的我想採購法民國87年上路到現在這麼久了是不是法規有問題是不是系統不完備還是委員上場的評鑑制度有一點問題為什麼我們常常常常選到的都是不OK的廠商我覺得很怪你研究了有沒有一個報告我們大概"},{"start":715.585,"end":737.59,"text":"陳韻是主保長,她用的是履歷的時機,就是系統的時機。得標之後,因為他們大概相關問題談不攏,所以陳韻是想用公園院的經驗來取代履歷。這部分必須符合政府採購法,就是說要有必要性,然後要"},{"start":738.325,"end":742.75,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":760.307,"end":787.046,"text":"假設他到今年比方說11月他該完成的工作如果沒有完成那就請淘汰公司依政府採購法該怎麼處理就怎麼處理好部長一年了解將近一個月成員加上履歷一個做車一個做系統因為光有車沒有辦法自駕啦因為靈魂在這裡靈魂哪裡該停哪裡該開門哪裡該怎麼樣這個其實系統是真的是一個靈魂我們在軌道工程已經吃過很多虧了"},{"start":787.987,"end":788.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":809.372,"end":812.173,"text":"我記得早期聽到很多採購法的故事就是這樣玩的兄弟你也弄一標"},{"start":838.158,"end":853.34,"text":"老哥你去弄一標我們三個一起去標誰標到大家一起玩玩來玩去換來換去都可以錢兄弟一起賺採購法訂完之後就是要杜絕這個的你這個某種程度不同組合"},{"start":854.485,"end":870.72,"text":"我的評鑑委員想一想,一家用日本的列車,假設喔,一家用韓國的,我們起經選擇,我們決定,假設要用日本的,結果你,你開工了,哎呦,抱歉啊,日本人換一換,換韓國的,可以這樣玩,可以這樣搞嗎?"},{"start":871.84,"end":885.59,"text":"你們評鑑 把評鑑當白癡吧評鑑了 罪憂 賜憂 如果這制度是有用的話 你不能這樣搞啊所以 陳昀跟李立 現在也沒有同意嘛 他們還是一個團隊嘛我跟你講"},{"start":887.913,"end":905.17,"text":"這個院長其實真的你這邊要注意一下因為各個部會都有這樣的一個情況那天我在交友會特別在講說奇怪了為什麼很多公共工程啊都有很多的渣男廠商啊就其實做不好但他說得很好你知道嗎說得很好然後這個也騙到了"},{"start":905.612,"end":906.153,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":926.227,"end":949.224,"text":"這是一個檢報,就是招標,針對這個標案的檢報。 報告人呢是誰?是陳韻的總經理,跟系統李立的李家盧,這個執行長。 也就是說,我覺得合理啊,因為你光報告車體要怎麼做,不會跑沒有用啊。 系統廠商,所以不是我們誰講,哎呀那個是..."},{"start":950.465,"end":972.138,"text":"裝螺絲令的分包商啊,給他換一下沒有關係啊,這系統廠商還上去打分數得標,可能就他的一個原因。 但是我一個問題是說,他的簡報第9月齁,第9月,那我就,履約能力啊,就是你為什麼要選我們陳韻、李莉。 抱歉,我告訴你,我打遍江湖無敵手,我做過台鐵的列控4.0。"},{"start":973.459,"end":974.299,"text":"我這個要問院長"},{"start":1002.298,"end":1021.627,"text":"委員長,內控4.0用在台鐵,台南沙崙南科的自駕,你不會沒有聽過吧?被細節不用啊,做得好不好?還是現在有沒有開始營運啊?在你印象中啊?現在有沒有營運啊?應該是還沒有正式的,應該是試驗性的。"},{"start":1027.668,"end":1033.934,"text":"臺鐵那個部分,臺鐵是說他們已經驗收合格了?對阿,你知道他在做什麼?就是我要做這個,在這個一個小塊做一個實驗,做一個實驗,啊實驗成功了。他弄到臺鐵,臺鐵PASS你知道嗎?"},{"start":1048.471,"end":1065.222,"text":"臺灣董事長怎麼說﹖對這個研究但是CP值太貴了﹖所以他中間會撿幾項零件來繼續研究﹖就表示這個系統沒有全部被拿走了﹖他要拿這個系統去做下一個﹖你不是嚇死人嗎﹖簡單來說"},{"start":1068.314,"end":1096.475,"text":"這都是現在的官員嘛齁 林信德主委在今年的4月5個月前特別說了行控4.0其實剛完成POC啦就是concept還沒有進入POS跟POP啦那還距離非常非常遠可是你知道嗎一個新產品或者一個新計畫你一定要經過至少前兩個前兩個你拿去在外面印在名片上我覺得那還算了就表示真的有點成果嘛"},{"start":1097.469,"end":1106.304,"text":"那我覺得他講啊目前對於安全提升還沒有實質的效果因為根本沒有進一步的實驗照這樣現在看進一步實驗可能也不會找他嘛"},{"start":1107.27,"end":1131.411,"text":"那臺南沙崙他作為這個機場PMS的優質旅業的條件,我的天啊,你知道這個評價是怎麼樣咧?他自駕,因為在練習的時候沙河實驗啊,在那邊的實驗都要一個人坐在那裡,不敢讓他真正自駕,那叫實驗,一個人看著,但是不准他動,小手不准動,腳也不要亂踩。"},{"start":1132.372,"end":1133.253,"text":"實際成果不如預期,可是很糟糕。"},{"start":1160.049,"end":1179.144,"text":"你知道嗎,他到政府標案裡面,因為履歷只是其一啦,拿著這個,拿著這個,對,政府也給他一個五千多萬,一個七千多萬,其實他用了,他用到錢沒自己花,拿出去變成他的履歷。我覺得這個院長,你覺得這個東西你未來要怎麼樣去把關啊?"},{"start":1181.275,"end":1183.597,"text":"院長你聽到這樣的到目前為止後面還沒出來弄好你幹嘛做你會不會擔心"},{"start":1207.25,"end":1226.071,"text":"你就是這樣得就是你趕快去做現在在吵架還在實驗你知道嗎當時講說要變過來每個學者講說哇技術成熟好像技術非常非常成熟啊結果得標之後是摸著石頭過河啊下一步水多生不知道趕快來救明天要開會了系統怎麼寫"},{"start":1228.392,"end":1250.418,"text":"這亂搞你敢不敢做,但是我跟你講,我們敢不敢做不重要,但是以他估的人次,以機場公司估多少人會做,他說初期一年大概6到700萬,如果成熟之後大概1000多萬個旅客在裡面,所以我們不能把旅客當白老鼠,那如果再這樣搞下去,我覺得這個"},{"start":1251.578,"end":1252.018,"text":"在一個標案裡面﹖"},{"start":1280.748,"end":1300.821,"text":"不能你兇我弟喔!你我的計畫在同一標案、同樣的條件、時間、同樣的委員做出了成績。你不知道哪裡比較差一點,但是抱歉,抱歉,你就是第二名的系統廠商。我覺得丁玲她講得比較好。"},{"start":1301.261,"end":1329.539,"text":"那現在呢他們兩個是同案按照採購法不同的團隊投標的賞商如果可以這樣換來換去最後你回答我可以這樣的話標完隨便換我覺得你簡報你比較好來弄完了可以換來換去可以這樣搞來搞去的話我跟你講以後在地方政府什麼事情啊那就不得了了因為你兄我弟啊大家一起來嘛後面搞不好你得標我也來做我覺得"},{"start":1331.109,"end":1356.738,"text":"主委是要非常慎重雖然採購法適應記者第36條有規定可是你要換包商換其他的分包商當然你要優於或者訓明理由可是你要換一起跟你標的主辦機關同意就是淘氣公司要同意那目前所謂更換承包商只是承運公司對外的說明"},{"start":1357.678,"end":1385.984,"text":"對外索爾裔建築媒體但是實際上並沒有做這樣的一個動作所以最終淘氣公司會做最後的決定目前淘氣公司還沒有所以報紙登李立還是工研院誰是分包三答案是李立嘛李立沒有問題嘛那我就覺得奇怪了那是要有人違法嗎我們再看一下2月份"},{"start":1387.989,"end":1395.234,"text":"陳韻德標正式開工2月19日﹖發生了什麼事情﹖他的系統承包商是上面紅色的李立﹖"},{"start":1397.81,"end":1424.46,"text":"二月3、4、5、6、7五個半月沒有找他開過一次會沒有找他的系統商 你們我們剛剛公認喔他的系統商還是李立喔 還是李立喔沒找他開一次會好 那找誰開會啊別家的姑娘比較漂亮一剛開始喔 他關你什麼採購法我覺得這種陳昀真的莫名其妙你知道嗎"},{"start":1426.638,"end":1448.38,"text":"採購法,公園院也莫名其妙,我跟你講公園院經濟部投資的喔,你提供這麼多你看看喔,2月2號提供什麼,自駕技術的介紹,也就算了。 3月10號提供什麼,我教你現控技術。 22號現控技術,29號把他的傳家寶高清地圖的定位,跟承運簡報。"},{"start":1449.946,"end":1478.365,"text":"然後6月份再跟陳昱,他不是分包商耶,他是對手的分包商耶,然後你看物件追蹤、安全驗證、運算,我覺得離譜到極致,他跟,不是他的承包商、分包商,開了10次會。我跟你講,我覺得院長,你這個我認為是已經違法,或者已經非常接近違法了,為什麼?"},{"start":1480.048,"end":1507.031,"text":"你怎麼可以找他我還沒有改你法律上你還不是這個的分包商對工業業來講你的know-how就是你的價值你的know-how你不會說我沒有提供給他鋼筋水泥你的know-how你整個搬給他你知道搬給他做什麼嗎因為承運每個禮拜都要跟機場公司跟世西開一次會每次會議中經常要不要問到系統你的進度在哪裡"},{"start":1508.493,"end":1536.31,"text":"他沒有找履歷,資料從哪來的,你猜猜看好不好。 可以這樣搞嗎?Know-how是有價的喔。Know-how是有價錢的喔。 現控你給他,是政府人民的錢喔。經濟部給你這麼多研究的錢,你研究出來了。 你沒有得標,你也沒有簽約,他也不會給你錢。 機場公司也沒授權你,交通部也沒叫你去,經濟部也沒叫你去。 你自己去跟他開了秘密會議10次。"},{"start":1537.535,"end":1545.455,"text":"所以到底誰實質是神域的系統分包商?部長你看一下這張圖的話你覺得是誰?"},{"start":1547.892,"end":1550.673,"text":"你會來做什麼事?你會來依法做什麼?對不對?依法簽約完整之後這前面叫什麼?作弊?"},{"start":1576.741,"end":1596.279,"text":"前面要做什麼?你看採購,他看採購法沒有,你知道嗎?我管我什麼?我根本不管你。他看我們交通部、經濟部也沒有,誰能管我?我就是把我的船家寶都拿出去,這麼多東西,至少十幾千萬的東西,你拿給陳韻,你沒有出面,他拿你東西報告,這很惡劣,很惡劣。"},{"start":1597.83,"end":1622.295,"text":"部長他就目前還沒有簽約還沒有換分包商嘛對不對那機場公司你說這個陳韻找陳韻找施夏找他也就算了機場公司說我不知道機場公司到底知不知道知道6月12日就上門要換陳包商但他6月26日說我不同意嘛所以機場公司的立場說我不同意你現在的分包商系統分包商就離地這機場的態度嘛"},{"start":1624.674,"end":1630.978,"text":"但不能假的嘛,很假,確定喔,來看一下機場公司的態度喔,話還沒講完喔,接著這個,機場公司在9月4號,9月4號很近喔,我們剛剛從2月到8月,9月4號上個月,"},{"start":1643.294,"end":1668.72,"text":"分包商說明辦理情形承認報告我們未來的分包商會在陸續因為什麼八月剛講八月底八月二十八號嘛已經開始囉六個月到囉要陸續分包商要上來跟我們簡報提供簡報給你審查這膽子多大機場公司9月4號他不同意了結果你看那邊排什麼"},{"start":1670.185,"end":1692.344,"text":"我他排10月2號這個自駕操作跟10月9號車輛巡航報告分包商專業分包商設計者是誰公園院然後機場公司公務的孫副總主持會議你不然說我不知道了吧你這樣報告就這樣子我覺得"},{"start":1694.608,"end":1707.981,"text":"他們知道而且他們有提醒釋法性跟要符合採購法的部分有提醒你這個寫上去對不對要是機場公司你不能這樣搞啊有一次要開會的時候你又沒有同意所以我是覺得齁"},{"start":1710.3,"end":1735.047,"text":"現在整個的部分幾個危機第一個因為採購法告來告去弄來弄去可能會變一個爛攤子有可能你的硬體完成之後管制區沒有交通工具可以接駁你是不是要變成開巴士還是怎樣我不清楚但現在再看已經要交卷了再一個半月是要全部我都已經審查完畢了"},{"start":1735.587,"end":1759.839,"text":"到現在都還沒有 還在那邊搞 我不知道機場公司說沒有換 但是也接受這個報告 我覺得莫名其妙齁那其實最後啊 因為時間也不夠啦 現在因為一堆的問題 9月5、3號開會的時候 這個沒有完成 那個沒有完成那最可怕的是 它應該要提供的 提供的風險管理計畫"},{"start":1761.459,"end":1761.639,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1771.101,"end":1771.321,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1806.887,"end":1808.288,"text":"目前發生什麼事呢?"},{"start":1808.288,"end":1821.302,"text":"消防安全,桃園機場有它自己的消防大隊,算是民營的組織,不是屬於消防署的,但是有160個人,它現在對電動巴士救災的器材只有"},{"start":1822.743,"end":1847.066,"text":"三塊滅火毯,當然啦,這個東西還要做很久嘛,可是滅火毯也沒有用啦,因為那是高價的嘛,它在天上嘛,你也沒辦法上去鋪啦齁。那除了這個之外,它還有最近弄了一些擋水板,那可能在軌道上面也沒有辦法用。所以在這樣的一個準備情況之下齁,我今天是提出來相關的一些問題。"},{"start":1849.264,"end":1850.664,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":1879.397,"end":1880.948,"text":"報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時23分）謝謝主席，有請我們行政院卓院長跟交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請卓院長跟陳部長備詢。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝兩位。"],["卓院長榮泰：魯委員好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：我們直接進入議題，今天其實討論的不光是我們桃園非常重要的建設，也是全國民眾出入國境的一個門禁，我也特別感謝當時的發言人──現在的部長，追隨院長，在上任一個月6月21號就完成你第一個願望，最想看的是T3，就是三航廈整個相關的進度。那天我也看到特別報導，你本身有三大期許，第一個，你希望它的進度能夠控制好，希望在明年度北登廊道可以完成，2027年我們主體建築相關的運作能夠順利完工；除了進度之外，也希望說軟硬體的施工單位都能夠跟上；最後一個，我覺得你比較特別啦！一般的官員不太會講，你說希望世界因為這個建築看到不光是宏偉的工程，而是看到我們臺灣文明的細節，我覺得這個很不錯。院長，你現在對於三航廈相關的工作如期如質的完工，有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，首先它整個設計在施工上是非常難的，所以它興建好之後，應該會成為世界的一個焦點，所以我才有那些期許。大概明年4、5月份，北廊道能夠先行使用，雖然它整個站體還沒有好，飛機降落之後，可以用北廊道來進到我們現有的航廈裡面，這個應該可以如期做。我現在比較擔心的是後續，因為在承包的工程上面有一些人力的欠缺，我有請陳部長一定要儘速的去把這些事情能夠完成，也請桃機公司能夠針對問題做有效的管控。"],["魯委員明哲：部長你有沒有信心？關於2027我們整個T3完工、可以啟用，你有沒有信心？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們北廊廳的部分沒有問題，委員也一直都很關心主體航廈，所以我們也特別跟民航局也好，或是桃機公司也好，一直在研商施工的過程遇到什麼樣的困難，我們正在努力的克服。我目前所知，對硬體建設的部分他們是有信心，這個沒有問題，但內部裝潢裝設的部分，可能難度上會比較高。不過目前為止，我們施工都還在期程上面，沒有延後，我們還是希望在2027年的下半年，能夠準時，如期如質來完工。"],["魯委員明哲：好，事實上桃機一波三折，關於它的坎坷路，從2013年我們當時就覺得一、二航廈不太夠，我們要做第三航廈，所以這麼早，已經十幾年前了，在2013年的時候就已經把總顧問標出去了，由荷蘭機場的一個顧問公司帶了一個團隊來得標，幫我們做總顧問。隔了幾年，好不容易找到世曦來做設計方面的一個顧問，後來開始流標，因為原物料漲價、人工不易，所以主體大概調升了一百多億，接著在2021標出去，而剩下就是我簡報上面的，你們就看一下，而我們在2022年的時候，發現它能源中心的偉銓營造好像也倒了。所以我覺得這點點滴滴，包括物價上漲又要找預算，還有在今年初又爆了一個我們行李的X光機到底合不合格、廠商好不好等等的爭議，我講了這麼多，都已經突破困難慢慢向前走了，你們覺得還有沒有什麼比較嚴重，除了主體建築物本身，有沒有會影響到三航廈能夠順利運作的工程啊？部長，你先說吧，有沒有？還有沒有什麼未爆彈？"],["陳部長世凱：目前他們給我的回報，我們的工程……"],["魯委員明哲：該爆都爆完了？"],["陳部長世凱：其實工程的部分，大概延宕0.91%這樣而已，其實不多啦，未來發包的部分，他們也跟我講目前看起來都還蠻順利的，所以沒有提出有什麼樣太大的未爆彈，或許委員如果有聽到的話，再給我們提示一下。"],["魯委員明哲：我要提一個有可能是未爆彈，事實上媒體記者已經報導了、已經說了，到底是什麼情況？首先請教一下部長，在9月26號的交通委員會，那天我主持會議，特別有委員問到PMS，這個系統決定採用自駕電巴的一個模式，遇到了一些困難，我不太清楚你查得怎麼樣，但是這樣的一個電巴，如果沒有做好，如果人家還有轉機，但航廈不能走過去啊！航廈看起來很近，但沒有辦法在路上走啊！那都是高速公路，沒有辦法，所以要有串接連接的bus，一、二航廈是用軌道，已經用了18、19年，蠻順暢的，那我們T2、T3呢？我們決定了不用軌道，我們要突破全世界做第一，我們認為技術已經成熟了，就用自駕電巴。這個部分已經一個月，部長你承諾一個月瞭解問題，PMS到底出了什麼問題？現在解決狀況如何？"],["陳部長世凱：目前是這個樣子，就是廠商跟廠商之間、上游包商跟下游包商之間有些合約上面的問題，他們目前正在解決當中，成運公司不想用理立這間公司，但這個部分他們還在合約的協商當中，我目前還在找看看裡面有什麼問題，並且要協助，重點是要請桃機公司協助他們。"],["魯委員明哲：所以現在還在找是不是？可以這樣嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：討論是不是要協助，讓他們繼續把東西，像委員所說的要如期如質的上線。"],["魯委員明哲：院長，你有沒有聽說發生什麼問題，這個自駕電巴，在T2、T3這樣一個用自駕電巴的系統，標也標出了，遇到什麼問題，你有沒有聽說啦？部長，有沒有跟你回報？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有像部長這麼了解。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那我跟你講遇到什麼問題，因為我覺得有急迫性，當部長或是院長你們覺得要研究處理，在找問題的時候，問題是火已經燒起來，你們沒有什麼時間去找，如果現在不解決，它是2月19號開工的，第一期要交報告，是NTP加180天（6個月），8月底，不是現在，現在已經10月了，在8月底就要陸續分包商，設計報告要審查，所以現在系統分包商就如你說的，有爭議、還在吵架中，這到底發生什麼事？我跟你講，本來是軌道工程，我相信院長、部長還有主委，在世界各國走一走，用軌道工程串接的居多，現在到底發生什麼事呢？自動電巴其實本來是軌道的，在108年10月，當時林佳龍部長主持一個會議，我不講後面有沒有用意，因為這沒有意義，我們談一個問題，他主持了一個會議，在整個會議結論中押了個小字，請機場公司研究一下，在T3十幾個標案中，除了主體工程之外，有沒有其他部分可以減省費用，那這樣就講就好了嘛，他用了括弧──（如旅客運輸系統）；林佳龍部長很聰明，用了括弧。","111年，林國顯董事長，也是當時民航局局長，他就按照這個括弧裡面的內容去開了一個會，找一些專家學者，然後決定採用電動自駕巴士這個模式來取代工程。去（112）年12月就決標了，今年2月開始啟動了，所以現在已經動了七個多月，到了NTP加270天（9個月）之後，不好意思喔，所有的審查都要告一段落，只剩下1個多月。所以我們現在在研究什麼呢？研究主體工程，我們院長這麼費心，就算有缺工的問題，我覺得就算2027年沒有完成，2028年也會完成。可是如果是在管制區內、管制區內是不能出來的，要到T1、T2轉機的旅客根本不能出來，沒有這個交通工具是不行運作的。","陳主委你自己上來了，上次我在交通委員會也有質詢，簡單來說，去年底發生了什麼事呢？決定自動電巴，去年年底招標嘛，3組團隊來投標參與，看誰標到這17.45億的標案，結果還不錯，決標了。各位看到圖上，第一組拿到獎杯的就是得標廠商──成運加上理立，一個主要做車體，理立做系統；第二組沒有得標，是華電加工研院做系統；第三組是勤崴加六和。這個標案標出去了，主委，我那天跟你講的，現在卡住了，因為事實上已經要交報告了，系統商還在吵架，到底我們當時選人是怎麼選的？採購法在民國87年上路，到現在這麼久了，是不是法規有問題？是不是系統不完備？還是委員上場的評鑑制度有一點問題？為什麼我們常常選到的都是不OK的廠商？我覺得很怪，你們研究之後有沒有一個報告？大概兩個禮拜了。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟魯委員報告，成運是主包商，他們用的是理立的系統實績，得標之後，大概因為他們相關問題談不攏，所以成運想用工研院的經驗來取代理立，這部分必須符合政府採購法，就是要有必要性，然後要承辦機關桃機公司的同意，這是第一部分；第二部分就是關於理立，委員也質詢過幾次，我記得好像說他們是「渣男公司」，我們也去了解，的確這個技術是不是成熟，必須是由成運來考量，最後假設他們到今年10月該完成的工作沒有完成，那就請桃機公司依政府採購法，該怎麼處理就怎麼處理。"],["魯委員明哲：好，部長，因為你了解將近一個月了，成運加上理立，一個做車、一個做系統，畢竟光有車是沒有辦法自駕的，因為靈魂在這裡啦！"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯！"],["魯委員明哲：哪裡該停、哪裡該開門、哪裡該怎麼樣，其實系統真的是一個靈魂，我們在軌道工程已經吃過很多虧了，換了下個系統，還要花大錢！所以系統的部分，我只問你一件事，去年12月的這個組合，機場公司有沒有批准？有無改變它的分包商？有無改變成運的系統商？簡單來講，成運的系統商還是理立？還是工研院或六和？"],["陳部長世凱：目前應該還是理立，目前桃機公司他們的要求就是依法、依約，因為成運公司跟桃機公司簽了約，就依法、依約下去執行，這是機場公司的要求。"],["魯委員明哲：好，你剛剛把我待會要講的也講了，成運、理立、華電、工研院，可以這樣玩嗎？我記得早期聽到很多採購法的故事，就是這樣玩的，兄弟，你也弄一標；老哥，你去弄一標；我們三個一起去標，無論誰標到，大家一起玩，玩來玩去、換來換去都可以，錢，兄弟一起賺！訂定採購法，就是要杜絕這個！以這種程度來看，有不同的組合，在評鑑的時候，假設一家用日本的列車，一家用韓國的，幾經選擇之後，假設我們決定用日本的，結果你開工了，唉唷！「歹勢」！日本的換一換，換成韓國的，可以這樣玩？可以這樣搞嗎？你們把評鑑當白癡嗎？評鑑了最優、次優，如果這制度是有用的話，你就不能這樣搞啊！所以成運跟理立現在也沒有同意，他們還是一個團隊。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["魯委員明哲：院長，真的，你這邊要注意一下，因為各個部會都有這樣一個情況，那天我在交委會特別提到，奇怪了，為什麼很多公共工程都有很多的渣男廠商，其實它做不好，但它說得很好，騙到標案了後面就擺爛，這種東西真的很奇怪，可是我們比較擔心的是，它為什麼可以騙同一機關兩次、同樣的人騙兩次，就很「衰」，你知道嗎？","我們來看看發生了什麼事，現在就把當天的招標現場拉到議場來，左上角的部分，這是一個簡報，就是針對這個招標案做的簡報，報告的人是誰？是成運總經理跟系統商理立的李佳儒執行長，我覺得這合理啊，因為你光放到車體要怎麼做？不會跑也沒有用啊！系統廠商不是我們隨便講講說，那是裝螺絲釘的分包商啦！給它換一下，沒有關係！這是系統廠商，還是上去打分數得標的，可能就是它得標的一個原因。","但是我有一個問題，它簡報第9頁提到履約能力，就是你為什麼要選我們成運、理立？「歹勢」！我告訴你，我打遍江湖無敵手，我做過臺鐵列控4.0，而且飽受好評，改善臺鐵行車安全有多少等等，簡報就是這樣寫的；再來是第11頁，為什麼要選我理立？系統的部分它寫了很多，像臺南沙崙、南科自駕公車載客營運，這都是我要加分的項目。我要請問院長，列控4.0用在臺鐵臺南沙崙、南科的自駕，你不會沒有聽過吧？在你印象中，細節先不談，但做得好不好？現在有沒有開始營運？"],["卓院長榮泰：頂多是嘗試性的駕駛吧！"],["魯委員明哲：現在有沒有營運啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是試驗性的。"],["魯委員明哲：列控4.0在今年4月……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺鐵的那個部分，臺鐵說他們已經驗收合格了。"],["魯委員明哲：對啊！你知道它在做什麼？就是在這一個小塊做一個實驗，實驗成功了，它要弄到臺鐵，臺鐵怕死了，你知道嗎？臺鐵董事長怎麼說呢？他說：這個研究CP值太貴了，所以他中間會撿幾項零件來繼續研究。就表示這個system、這個系統沒有全部被拿走了，它是要拿這個系統去做下一個，這不是嚇死人嗎？簡單來說，這都是現在的官員嘛，林信得主委在今年4月，也就是在5個月前，他特別說行控4.0其實剛完成POC，就是concept，還沒有進入POS跟POB，還距離非常非常遠，可是你知道嗎，一個新產品或新計畫一定要經過至少前兩個，你拿去外面或印在名片上，我覺得那還算了，表示真的有點成果嘛，他講說這個在目前對於安全提升沒有實質效果，因為根本沒有進一步的實驗。照這樣看，以現在來看，進一步的實驗可能也不會找他嘛！","台南沙崙做為機場PMS的優質履約條件，我的天啊，你知道這個評價是怎麼樣嗎？它的自駕，因為在練習的時候，沙盒實驗，在實驗時都要有一個人坐在裡面，不敢讓它真正自駕，那叫做實驗啊！有一個人在看著，但是不准他動，小手不准動，腳也不要亂踩，看這個車可不可以自己走，結果它不但小手亂動、小腳亂踢煞車、油門，人為介入共1,288次，這樣是不是自駕？人為，唉呦，歪了轉一下，太快了踩一下，這個叫做全自駕嗎？天差地別，所以委員，經濟部喔，表示實際成果不如預期，可是很糟糕，他到政府標案裡面，因為理立只是其一，拿著這個，政府也給它一個五千多萬、一個七千多萬，錢給它用了，它自己沒花一毛錢，拿出去變成它的履歷，院長，你覺得這個東西未來要怎麼樣去把關？"],["卓院長榮泰：公共工程的任何品質安全就是跟承包能力有關係，政府在這裡的把關，我想我們有一定的標準，包括工程會及各相關部會自己在做發包的時候應該要秉持這樣的原則，如果有破壞的話，我們會以嚴格的方式來看……"],["魯委員明哲：院長，你聽到這樣，到目前為止，後面還沒出來，到時候弄好了你敢不敢坐？你會不會擔心？就是這樣的，你敢不敢去坐？現在在吵架，還在實驗，你知道嗎，當時說要變過來，每個學者都講說技術成熟，好像技術非常非常成熟，結果得標之後是摸著石頭過河，下一步水多深不知道，趕快來救，明天要開會了，系統怎麼寫？這亂搞，你敢不敢坐？我跟你講，我們敢不敢坐不重要，但是以它估的人次，機場公司預估多少人會坐，說初期一年大概六到七百萬，成熟之後大概一千多萬的旅客在裡面，我們不能把旅客當白老鼠。如果再這樣搞下去，我覺得部長跟主委要認真幫院長介入，因為院長話已經押在這邊，我們這整套出來，要讓全世界看到我們文明的細節啊，而不是看到我們這麼粗心，發生的是怎麼回事啊！","再來，剛剛已經講了理立跟工研院，他們兩個是什麼身分？在一個標案裡面不能你兄我弟，你我的計畫在同一標案，同樣的條件、時間，同樣的委員打出了成績，你不知道哪裡比較差一點，但是不好意思，你就是第二名的系統廠商，我覺得第一名講得比較好。現在他們兩個是同案，按照採購法，不同團隊投標的廠商如果可以這樣換來換去，標完了可以隨便換，覺得你簡報比較好就你來，弄完了，可以這樣換來換去、可以這樣搞來搞去的話，我跟你講，以後在地方政府什麼事情就不得了，因為你兄我弟，大家一起來嘛，後面搞不好你得標我也來做。我覺得主委要非常慎重，雖然採購法施行細則第三十六條有規定，可是你要換包商、換其他分包商，當然你要優於，或者是敘明理由，可是你要換成一起跟你競標的，你覺得你要不要小心？"],["陳主任委員金德：而且要那個主辦機關同意，就是桃機公司要同意……"],["卓院長榮泰：目前沒有。"],["陳主任委員金德：目前所謂的更換承包商只是成運公司對外說而已，見諸媒體，但是實際上並沒有做這樣的一個動作，所以最終桃機公司會做最後的決定。"],["陳部長世凱：目前桃機公司還沒有更換。"],["魯委員明哲：好，所以目前，剛剛講了目前還沒換，所以報紙登理立還是工研院，誰是分包商，答案是理立嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：理立，沒有問題嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：那我就覺得奇怪了，那是有人要違法嗎？我們來看一下2月份成運得標，正式開工2月19號之後發生了什麼事情？它的系統承包商是上面紅字的理立，從2月開始歷經3、4、5、6、7月，五個半月沒有找理立開過一次會，沒有找它的系統商。我們剛剛都公認了，它的系統商還是理立，還是理立喔，沒有找它開一次會！好，那找誰開會呢？別家的姑娘比較漂亮。一剛開始他管你什麼採購法，我覺得這個成運真的莫名其妙，你知道嗎，不理採購法，那工研院也莫名其妙，我跟你講，工研院是經濟部投資的，你提供這麼多，你看看，2月2號提供什麼？自駕技術的介紹，也就算了；3月10號提供什麼？我教你線控技術；22號繼續教線控技術；29號把他的傳家寶高精地圖的定位向成運簡報；然後6月份再跟成運開會4次，他不是成運的分包商耶！他是對手的分包商耶！然後你看6月份開會的內容包括物件追蹤感測、安全驗證、運算等等，我覺得離譜到極致，成運跟不是它的分包商開了10次會。","我跟你講我確認，院長，這種行為我認為已經違法，或者已經非常接近違法了，為什麼？你怎麼可以找他，我還沒有改，法令上你還不是此案的分包商。對工研院來講，你的knowhow就是你的價值，這是你的KnowHow耶！你不會說我又沒有提供給他鋼筋水泥，你的knowhow你整個搬給他，你這樣搬給他做什麼呢？因為成運每個禮拜都要跟機場公司、跟世曦開一次會，每次會議中經常要不要問到系統，你的進度在哪裡，它沒有找理立，資料從哪來的？你猜猜看好不好？","可以這樣搞嗎？knowhow是有價的，knowhow是有價錢的，線控你給它，是政府人民的錢喔，經濟部給你這麼多研究的錢，你研究出來了，你沒有得標，你也沒有簽約，它也不會給你錢，機場公司也沒授權你，交通部也沒叫你去，經濟部也沒叫你去，你自己去跟它開了秘密會議10次，所以，到底誰實質是成運的系統分包商？部長，你看一下，就這張圖的話，你覺得是誰？"],["陳部長世凱：是。當然它這麼早就開始找工研院，但是這個成運在9月30號有直接來跟機場公司說，他們希望把工研院跟中華電信等等廠商能夠加進來成為它們的顧問，但是那是9月30號之後的事，那前面的部分……"],["魯委員明哲：OK，你會來做什麼事？你會來依法做什麼，對不對？依法，簽約完整之後，這前面叫什麼？作弊。前面在做什麼，他視採購法為無物，你知道嗎？我管採購法什麼，我根本不管你，他也看我們的交通部、經濟部如無物，誰能管我？我就是把我的傳家寶都拿出去了。這麼多東西，至少值幾千萬的東西，你拿給成運，你沒有出面，他拿你的東西報告，這很惡劣！很惡劣！部長，它就目前還沒有簽約，還沒有換分包商嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["魯委員明哲：那機場公司，你說這個成運私下找工研院也就算了，機場公司說我不知道，機場公司到底知不知道？知道，6月14號成運就上文要換承包商，但機場公司6月26號說我不同意嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["魯委員明哲：所以機場公司的立場是說我不同意，你現在的系統分包商就是理立，這是機場公司的態度嘛，但是你不能假的嘛……"],["陳部長世凱：但是機場公司有……"],["魯委員明哲：很假。來，看一下機場公司的態度……"],["陳部長世凱：機場公司有提醒，有提醒他們說適法性跟契約的部分。"],["魯委員明哲：我的話還沒有講完。接著來看這個圖，機場公司在9月4號，9月4號喔，很近喔，我們剛剛看的是從2月到8月，9月4號上個月分包商說明辦理情形，成運報告我們未來的分包商會再陸續，因為剛剛講8月底，8月28號已經開始囉，6個月到囉，陸續分包商要上來跟我們簡報，提供簡報給你審查。它膽子多大啊？！9月4號的會議耶，機場公司他不同意耶，結果你看這邊排什麼？他安排10月2號車輛自駕操作跟10月9號車輛巡航管理的報告，專業分包設計者是誰？是工研院，然後機場公司公布是孫副總主持會議，這樣你不能說「我不知道」了吧！這樣報告就是這樣子，我覺得這個……"],["陳部長世凱：他知道，而且他們有提醒適法性跟要符合採購法的部分，有提醒……"],["魯委員明哲：對，你這個寫上去對不對？那是機場公司，你不能這樣搞啊！在9月4號開會的時候，你又沒有同意，所以我是覺得現在這整個部分有幾個危機，第一個，因為採購法告來告去、弄來弄去，可能會變成一個爛攤子，有可能你的硬體完成之後，管制區沒有交通工具可以接駁，我不清楚你是不是要變成開巴士還是怎麼樣，但是現在看起來，已經要交卷了，再一個半月，都已經全部審查完畢了，到現在都還沒有，還在那邊搞，我不知道，機場公司說沒有換，但是也接受這個報告，我覺得莫名其妙！","最後，因為時間也不夠，現在有一堆的問題，在9月3號開會的時候，這個沒有完成，那個沒有完成，那最可怕的是，他應該要提供的風險管理計畫完全沒有提出來，大家都知道電巴，用電安全在哪裡？它要裝5個快充，在左右的站體各裝2個，維修站裝1個，你也知道，快充本身的問題不大，是車停在那邊，營建署到現在還卡在行政院嘛！我們的公寓大廈管理條例規定在下面可以強制性的要做充電樁，結果營建署考慮以後認為火災的問題要解決，所以目前提醒用電安全、消防安全，我們問了，就直接給你看，目前發生什麼事呢？關於消防安全，桃園機場有它自己的消防大隊，算是民營的組織，不是屬於消防署的，但是有160個人，它現在對電動巴士救災的器材只有3塊滅火毯，當然啦！這個東西還要做很久，可是滅火毯也沒有用啊！因為那是高架的，它在天上，你也沒辦法上去鋪啦！除了這個之外，它最近有弄了一些擋水板，可能在軌道上面也沒有辦法用。所以在這樣的一個準備情況之下，我今天是提出來一些相關的問題，你系統要找對人，讓這個車可以正常運作，像這種消安用電異常管理，你要更有把握，才可以讓這個車上路，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這個建議跟提醒，我們一定會很嚴謹的去了解，做必要的處置，其實工程會是有方式在監控這件事情。"],["魯委員明哲：好，院長，你要下來關心啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["主席：謝謝魯委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是雲林縣台西婦女會的朋友，我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪。","報告院會，交通組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息10分鐘，休息之後進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長早 院長我最近參加一個佛學講座 聽師父在開示的時候 人生的過程 做人做事都會碰到一些邪魔邪魔 邪魔是指的人 有可能是指事"},{"start":52.455,"end":65.853,"text":"新逃獵的地,新居正,蘇國說一句話,你做政治工作,新居正則邪魔不入。 說這樣,你議會辦理依照憲法來執行。"},{"start":67.571,"end":68.591,"text":"我們希望大家互相善化感化"},{"start":90.396,"end":118.907,"text":"所以你要散化、感化、協磨,你心要先舉證。對,對,對,我們自己的防衛要很堅強。是,是,好,多謝。那這個,問一下那個南非的問題,南非當然這不是第一例,過去有奈及利亞,也是叫我們的辦事處從首都遷到其他城市。那這南非,他更惡劣,限期在10月底,要遷出這個首都普魯克利亞。"},{"start":120.202,"end":148.758,"text":"那外交部里長昨天表達就是說我們不簽這是行政院立場就我們不簽那如果他們用強制性的手段我們有沒有什麼任何反制的這個措施呢當然我們支持第一線外管人員在現場所做的努力我們也支持外交部在衡量國際情勢底下所做的決定那無論如何這一段跟剛剛委員一開始那一段是一樣的"},{"start":150.038,"end":176.197,"text":"對方如果違反國際上的常規常理而且不顧國際的法規那對我們做這種強制性的我們當然要據理力爭據理力爭的不是一個場館一個點而已是管這個國家的主權跟尊嚴所以我們一定是大力的來維護我們的尊嚴但是應該對方是遭受到相當大的來自對岸的壓力這也看得出來在外交的競爭上面"},{"start":177.358,"end":206.084,"text":"我們永遠是跟對岸在做這種的競爭所以我們要對自己的外交人員有足夠的支撐力我們有沒有召見他們的南非駐台代表或者是我們也反制用他們的方式來請他們也搬離他們住宿也搬離台北市我記得這個還是由外交部在跟他們洽商當中那剛剛這個黃協委員提到就是小港機場定位小港機場大部分的航線是東南亞跟東北亞"},{"start":207.33,"end":230.675,"text":"東南亞它是一個轉機的一個契機啦。 東南亞很多國家沒有直飛美國的航線。 所以現在聯合航空開闢高雄到東京,我覺得它是不夠。 國際航空要帶頭,特別陳部長可以請協調三家國際航空。 是。 你在,你可以用charter或在旺季的時候,暑假期間,"},{"start":231.636,"end":255.489,"text":"你可以大概開航3個月到4個月在夏季期間,空高雄直飛北美,這部分是可行的,因為他客源絕對沒有問題,因為東南亞轉機不是到,大部分是到桃園機場,但小港機場他們也可以選擇,而且航程更近,相對的機位也比較多。"},{"start":259.423,"end":286.928,"text":"所以我覺得這部分是不是從這個明年的夏天開始就請國際航空先試飛,搞不好這個班班課滿。因為南部啊,雲林以南啊,你如果可以選擇的話,我會選擇是小黃機場。因為沒有航線不夠,所以我沒辦法選擇我只能去小黃,去桃園機場。所以我覺得這個部分應該是可行的,是不是擬定一個時間表。"},{"start":288.843,"end":317.903,"text":"從明年夏季開始,旺季時間從高雄來飛北美,甚至歐洲也可以。因為高雄沒有大型的這個飛機在飛,大半都是320、321啦。所以沒有像777或者A350那種大型航空,所以它的運量永遠不足。所以我覺得疫後已經到這邊兩年時間了,應該要超越疫前的這個水平。"},{"start":318.823,"end":340.996,"text":"因為高雄是一個正在崛起的城市米蘭金台積電、王剛沒來都在高雄設廠高科技我們變成全世界最重要半導體的一個生產聚落都在高雄所以這個國際化的航班是很重要請院長也請部長能夠多加重視這個國際航空的部分我們來溝通另外電價電價對這個我們交通產業"},{"start":347.885,"end":373.669,"text":"會有一些成本的增加目前為止大概鐵路部分沒有漲當然會有增加但是就是我們自己吸收嘛鐵路部長那捷運的部分包括各縣市的捷運都沒有調整計畫但未來如果電價在調整的時候會不會台鐵的部分捷運的部分沒有勢必你要運用正常會不會造成說這個票價會調漲未來有沒有可能"},{"start":380.407,"end":405.546,"text":"這個長期來說未來的這個電價到底到什麼程度或者是會上漲下跌這個我們大概沒有辦法評估但是有一個部分就是說針對民眾的通勤的需求我們目前是用TPAS的部分來協助民眾在通勤的需求的面向上面讓他用最低的這個成本但是達到最高的這個通勤的這個效果我們也希望能夠推動這個公共運輸的部分那希望能夠減碳"},{"start":406.686,"end":428.255,"text":"這個政策到目前為止沒有改變的狀況底下,其實對一般通勤的民眾來說的話,他們用TPAS的使用大概就可以解決掉不管票價漲或者是跌的這些問題。這個部分請部長再注意一下,因為我提到我地方的交通建設,台39就是高鐵橋下。"},{"start":429.775,"end":454.755,"text":"高鐵橋下道路只到台南高鐵的沙崙你也知道嗎?往南就沒有了我提案了5次然後質詢了大概15次那我覺得這部分一定要做從台南要直接走高鐵橋下到高雄仁武經過市區路竹、岡山、阿聯"},{"start":459.381,"end":475.422,"text":"這部分經過多年的爭取,這部分我希望說交通部在未來在預算執行面能夠全力支持,這點很重要。所以部長你有空去看一下。其實那段我看過,從台南要到高雄的這一段其實大家比較有共識。"},{"start":476.503,"end":478.843,"text":"一向交通建設你沒有六七年不會有眉目"},{"start":505.066,"end":522.888,"text":"你要完成大概10年,比方說岡山第二交通道,我努力了10年才獲得交通部的行政院通過50億來批建第二交通道。所以一線交通建設,你從開始發想、從開始提案到完成10年以上。"},{"start":523.649,"end":542.613,"text":"所以台61線我覺得這是做一個為後代子孫有一個好的一個道路品質所以不能只做到鄭文溪口你要往南一直接到高雄市區到南子當然要經過我的選舉到海線你也知道喔到延安、彌陀、珠寨、南牧溪這部分"},{"start":549.582,"end":550.883,"text":"目前我們正在可行性研究的過程"},{"start":566.973,"end":583.425,"text":"陳秉飛委員在質詢的時候我有回答過明年的1月大概可前進研究在部的部分會有一個共識那共識出來我們會跟這個地方政府也就是台南政府因為目前針對這個路線的部分台南市政府還有一些想法有兩種方案對我們下去討論完之後大概就會再往前推進"},{"start":584.306,"end":611.801,"text":"那高雄斷會用B2方案會比較好是是是那另外我要問一下那個院長運動部當然這已經是政策了對不對那這個南北平衡很重要左訓中心國家的國手啊這個國家的運動基因都是在左營培訓所以運動部有可能涉及國防部"},{"start":613.334,"end":623.778,"text":"是,我要拜託大院能夠緊速的來審議運動部相關的組織法的一些修正,讓這個運動部能夠緊速的上路。"},{"start":625.666,"end":647.605,"text":"未來他會在哪個地方成為他最適合的服務國人的一個地點目前還在整個規劃當中我當然認為我甚至認為找一個有操場的地方讓他去也不錯讓他能夠去運動那左運中心他本身是有這些設施的這是一個想法那因為現在運動部的從構想規劃到現在我們有經過籌備小組跟諮詢小組"},{"start":652.045,"end":654.547,"text":"現有的基礎,包括氣候,包括這個城市的未來性,我是覺得國融是最好的。"},{"start":672.973,"end":697.998,"text":"我們會把委員的建議清清楚楚記載下來在討論的時候會很重視另外國家體育運動博物館我也曾經質詢過在陳建仁院長的時候這部分我也爭取很久但是文化部說這個也不是他們的未來體育部也說這個博物館好像是文化部管的"},{"start":698.678,"end":701.619,"text":"在未來討論的時候,我希望每個部會都勇於認識,把自己所該有的業館範圍,"},{"start":720.239,"end":728.617,"text":"國人做更好的資訊提供跟服務那如果能夠朝這樣講也是把我們國家的整個體育運動的品質水平往上拉升"},{"start":729.276,"end":734.579,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":759.097,"end":785.263,"text":"大部分是南北向,紅線是南北向,但也有橘線是東西向,那是原來的市區,但原來縣區八國雄也需要一個東西向,東西向這個子線這個是大家全民的期待,也能夠帶動這個北高雄的發展,可以連接北高雄跟東高雄,但這個區域就是未來半導體S囊帶的核心區了,"},{"start":787.677,"end":816.613,"text":"所以這部分我希望中央能夠大力支持是,當時的可行性研究中央鼓助了1680萬那現在可行性研究市政府在9月19號已經送到了交通部那我們現在正在審議的過程那委員很關心我們就來加速這個審議的過程能夠設一個支線到鵝阿寮紫關鵝阿寮因為他線都沒有往北沒有到我選區能夠設一個支線到鵝阿寮能夠帶動地方的發展這請交通部一併考慮"},{"start":817.463,"end":842.375,"text":"另外我還有一點時間我請教這個工程會陳主委就有關於院長有關於這個因為陳主委也是兼任政委是的那有些這個協調部分以政委來發揮會比較好一點就是說有些漁港比如說晴仁碼頭淡水有漁仁碼頭那加拿大協定也有一個這個"},{"start":844.716,"end":859.422,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨"},{"start":871.744,"end":897.441,"text":"那麼好的一個海岸的遊戲區但是沒有主管機關市政府他財源有限所以我這部分我是不是可以請院長再請主委針對情人碼頭如何活化以及漁業署跟觀光部跟觀光署怎麼去協調用觀光的資源帶動漁港觀光的發展這個很重要"},{"start":898.137,"end":898.297,"text":"主席"},{"start":914.554,"end":914.874,"text":"謝謝邱委員"},{"start":944.49,"end":944.692,"text":"謝謝卓院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":275,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時6分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓院長、交通部陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長、陳部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：院長早。院長，我最近參加一個佛學講座，請師父在開示的時候，在人生的過程，做人做事都會碰到一些邪魔，邪魔可能是指人，也有可能是指事，心頭抓乎定，心居正，師父跟我說一句話，我做政治工作，心居正，則邪魔不入。"],["卓院長榮泰：受教。"],["邱委員志偉：依法辦理、依照憲法來執行，永遠是站在最正確的一邊，部長有什麼想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想我們都會秉持這樣的態度去面對所有大大小小的事情，我也認為只要大家都是這樣做……"],["邱委員志偉：不能跟邪魔妥協啦！跟邪魔妥協你就會被邪魔牽著走。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望大家互相善化、感化。"],["邱委員志偉：你要善化、感化邪魔，你心要先居正，要堅持。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們自己的防衛要很堅強。"],["邱委員志偉：多謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：問一下南非的問題，南非當然不是第一例，過去的奈及利亞也是叫我們駐辦事處從首都遷到其他城市，這南非更惡劣，限期在10月底要遷出首都Pretoria，外交部立場昨天有表達我們不遷，這是行政院立場，就我們不遷，如果他們用強制性的手段，我們有沒有什麼任何反制的措施呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然我們支持第一線外館人員在現場所做的努力，我們也支持外交部在衡量國際情勢底下所做的決定，無論如何，這一段跟剛剛委員一開始那一段是一樣的，對方如果違反國際的常規、常理，而且不顧國際法規，對我們做這種強制性的，我們當然要據理力爭，據理力爭的不是一個場館、一個點而已，是整個國家的主權跟尊嚴，所以我們一定是大力的來維護我們的尊嚴。","但是對方應該是遭受到相當大的、來自對岸的壓力，這也看得出來在外交的競爭上面，我們永遠是跟對岸在做這種競爭，所以我們對自己的外交人員要有足夠的支撐……"],["邱委員志偉：我們有沒有召見他們的南非駐臺代表？或者是我們也反制用他們的方式請他們也搬離他們的住宿，也搬離臺北市？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前這個還是由外交部在跟他們洽商當中。"],["邱委員志偉：剛剛黃捷委員提到小港機場的定位，小港機場大部分的航線是東南亞跟東北亞，東南亞它是一個轉機的一個契機，東南亞很多國家沒有直飛美國的航線，所以現在聯合航空開闢高雄到東京，我覺得不夠，國籍航空要帶頭，特別請陳部長可以協調三家國籍航空，你可以用charter，在旺季的時候或暑假期間可以大概開航3個月到4個月，在夏季期間從高雄直飛北美，這個部分是可行的，它的客源絕對沒有問題，因為東南亞轉機大部分是到桃園機場，但他們也可以選擇小港機場，而且航程更近……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：相對的，這個機位也比較多啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我覺得這部分是不是從明年的夏天開始就請國籍航空先試飛？搞不好班班客滿，因為南部，雲林以南，如果可以選擇的話，我會選擇小港機場，但因為航線不夠，所以我沒辦法選擇，我只能去桃園機場。所以我覺得這個部分應該是可行的，是不是擬定一個時間表？從明年夏季開始，旺季時間從高雄飛北美，甚至歐洲也可以……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員志偉：因為高雄沒有大型的飛機在飛，大部分都是320、321，所以沒有像777或者A350那種大型的，所以它的運量永遠不足。我覺得疫後已經兩年時間，應該要超越疫前的水平，因為高雄是一個正在崛起的城市，未來其實台積電的員工要來，都在高雄設廠，對不對？高科技業，我們變成全世界最重要半導體的一個生產聚落，都在高雄，所以國際化的航班是很重要，請院長，也請部長能夠多加重視。"],["陳部長世凱：好，國籍航空的部分我們來溝通。"],["邱委員志偉：好。另外，電價對交通產業會有一些成本的增加，目前為止大概鐵路部分沒有漲，當然會有增加，但是就是他們自己吸收，鐵路不漲；捷運的部分，包括各縣市的捷運都沒有調整計畫。但未來如果電價再調整的時候，臺鐵的部分、捷運的部分勢必要營運正常，會不會造成票價會調漲？未來有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：長期來說，未來的電價到底到什麼程度，或者是會上漲、下跌，這個我們大概沒有辦法評估，但是有一個部分，就是針對民眾的通勤需求，我們目前是用TPASS的部分來協助民眾，在通勤需求的面向上面，讓他用最低的成本，但是達到最高的通勤效果，我們也希望能夠推動公共運輸的部分，希望能夠減碳。這個政策到目前為止沒有改變的狀況底下，其實對一般的通勤民眾來說的話，他們使用TPASS大概就可以解決掉不管票價漲或者是跌的這些問題。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這個部分請部長再注意一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：接下來我提到我地方的交通建設，台39就是在高鐵橋下，高鐵橋下的道路只到臺南高鐵的沙崙，你也知道嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["邱委員志偉：往南就沒有了，我提案了5次，然後質詢了大概15次，我覺得這個部分一定要做，從臺南直接走高鐵橋下到高雄仁武要經過市區，路竹、岡山、阿蓮到仁武，這個部分經過我多年的爭取，我希望交通部未來在預算執行面能夠全力支持，這點很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你有空去看一下。"],["陳部長世凱：其實那一段我看過，從臺南要到高雄的這一段大家比較有共識；要再往北，就是到嘉義這一段目前還在討論跟協商當中。"],["邱委員志偉：嘉義不是我的管區啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我知道。往南的部分，我剛才有說比較有共識，所以這個部分我們會持續……"],["邱委員志偉：這也是我多年爭取，我大概爭取5年有啦！"],["陳部長世凱：對，委員一直在關心這一段，所以這一段我覺得未來會有進展。"],["邱委員志偉：對。濱海國道部分，就是所謂台61線，只到曾文溪口，曾文溪口也是我多年爭取，大概有6、7年，一項交通建設沒有6、7年不會有眉目，要完成大概要10年，比方說岡山第二交流道，我努力了10年才獲得行政院通過，50億來闢建第二交流道，所以一項交通建設從開始發想、提案到完成要10年以上，因此台61線，我覺得這是為後代子孫有一個好的道路品質，所以不能只做到曾文溪口，你要往南一直接到高雄市區、到楠梓，當然要經過我的選區到海線，茄萣你也知道喔？茄萣到永安、彌陀到梓官、到楠梓區，這部分才能顯現濱海國道從北到南，從北是從八里嘛，你不要只到曾文溪口就不蓋了，這樣不行，這部分再請部長有空對這個內容多加了解。"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們正在可行性研究的過程，剛剛陳亭妃委員在質詢的時候，我有回答過，明年1月大概可行性研究在部的部分會有一個共識，共識出來後我們會跟地方政府，也就是臺南市政府討論，因為目前針對這個路線的部分，臺南市政府還有一些想法。"],["邱委員志偉：有兩種方案。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們下去討論完之後，大概就會再往前推進。"],["邱委員志偉：高雄段用B2方案會比較好。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我要問一下院長，運動部當然已經是政策了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員志偉：南北平衡很重要，左訓中心，國家的國手、國家的運動菁英都是在左營培訓，運動部有可能設在高雄嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要拜託大院能夠儘速來審議運動部相關組織法的一些修正，讓運動部能夠儘速地上路，未來它會在哪個地方成為最適合服務國人的地點，目前還在整體規劃當中，我甚至認為找一個有操場的地方讓它去也不錯，能夠去運動，左運中心本身是有這些設施的，這是一個想法，因為運動部從構想、規劃到現在，我們有經過籌備小組跟諮詢小組，可能很多諮詢小組的委員們也會有很多的不同的意見，我們還是尊重他們，但是像委員所提到的，倒是一個可以列為參考的重要選項跟依據。"],["邱委員志偉：以現有的基礎，包括氣候、城市的未來性，我覺得高雄市最好，再請院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會把委員的建議清清楚楚記載下來，在討論的時候會很重視。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。另外，國家體育運動博物館我也曾經質詢過，在陳建仁院長的時候，這部分我也爭取很久，但是文化部說這個不是他們的，然後未來的體育部也說博物館好像是文化部管的，所以權責不分，我是希望我們要有國家級的體育運動博物館，所以這部分我希望如果運動部成立的時候，也一併成立國家體育運動博物館。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在未來討論的時候，我也希望每個部會都能夠勇於任事，就自己所該有的業管範圍，能夠為國人做更好的資訊提供跟服務，如果能夠朝這樣想，也是把我們國家整個體育運動的品質水平往上拉升，跟國際也做了一個更好的連結，也是一個非常好的想法。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。另外，我再請教一下部長，就是高雄捷運紫線是東西向，串連所謂的大學城，這部分的可行性研究是不是能夠儘快核定？這部分時間上有拖到，所以也請院長能夠重視紫線。現在的高雄捷運大部分是南北向，紅線是南北向，也有橘線是東西向，但是原來的市區。原來的縣區北高雄也需要一個東西向，東西向的紫線是全民的期待，也能夠帶動北高雄的發展，可以連接北高雄跟東高雄，這個區域就是未來半導體S廊帶的核心區，所以這部分我希望中央能夠大力支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是，當時的可行性研究中央補助了1,680萬，現在可行性研究市政府在9月19號已經送到交通部，我們現在正在審議，委員很關心，我們就來加速這個審議的過程。"],["邱委員志偉：能不能設一個支線到蚵仔寮，梓官蚵仔寮？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：因為它的線都沒有往北，沒有到我的選區，設一個支線到蚵仔寮，能夠帶動地方的發展，這也請交通部一併考量。另外，我還有一點時間，我要請教工程會陳主委，因為陳主委也兼任政委嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：有些協調的部分由政委來發揮會比較好一點，有些漁港比如說情人碼頭，淡水有漁人碼頭，茄萣也有一個情人碼頭，那是過去高雄縣時代所闢建的。現在因為沒有持續的投入，所以它沒有觀光元素，然後又權責劃分不明，說這是二類漁港，二類漁港是高雄市政府，市政府財源有限，但是我覺得這個應該變成工程會來督導，讓這個情人碼頭能夠活化，不然很很可惜，那麼好的一個海岸遊憩區，但是沒有主管機關，市政府財源有限。所以這個部分我是不是可以請院長和主委，針對情人碼頭如何活化，以及漁業署跟觀光署怎麼樣去協調，用觀光的資源帶動漁港觀光的發展，這個很重要。不然漁港只靠漁業署，說實在漁業署的資源也有限，它說觀光不是它的，所以這部分怎麼樣去整合觀光署跟漁業署去帶動漁港觀光？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，觀光跟漁業剛好都不是我督導的，但是如果說就公共工程公建的話……"],["邱委員志偉：以政委的身分啦！以政委的身分去協調啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那邊有很多地方都是國產署的地。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果說農業部補助這個漁港超過一定比例，當然可以……"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個我會來協調，請政委來負責。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是新竹縣竹東鎮南華社區發展協會的好朋友，我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪，謝謝。","下一位我們請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}},{"id":"155873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe51a128ab69fceda45ade09287612b20ad66daa4be0611873b207b5028fc8e4cef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:50:10 - 10:05:58","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月22日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-22","start_time":"2024-10-22T09:50:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-22T10:05:58+08:00","duration":948,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議","id":"院會-11-2-5","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.920343750000001,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.172843750000002,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.14971875,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.39346875,"end":38.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.57346875,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.336593750000006,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.55909375,"end":100.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.26409375,"end":115.65846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.08034375000001,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.29096875,"end":137.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.25409375,"end":138.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.43534375000002,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.20721875,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.45971875,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.67846875,"end":185.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.79096875000002,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.68409375000002,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.42534375000002,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.63596875000002,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.51659375000003,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.61346875,"end":217.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.95909375000002,"end":231.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.86846875,"end":231.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.58534375000002,"end":234.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.73721875,"end":232.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.93971875000003,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.99034375000002,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.96909375,"end":238.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.27284375000002,"end":235.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.35221875000002,"end":241.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.59221875000003,"end":246.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.52409375000002,"end":249.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.46034375000002,"end":249.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.88221875000002,"end":251.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.45159375000003,"end":252.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.34596875000003,"end":253.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.84784375,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.99096875000004,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.53909375,"end":261.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.99846875000003,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.06596875,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.12471875,"end":271.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.98846875000004,"end":272.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.44409375000004,"end":273.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.35534375000003,"end":276.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.00034375,"end":281.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.04596875000004,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.29909375,"end":282.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.33721875000003,"end":309.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.42971875,"end":317.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.44971875000005,"end":323.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.33971875000003,"end":320.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.73159375,"end":323.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.21659375,"end":333.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.68034375,"end":327.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.34596875,"end":355.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.08784375000005,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.02596875,"end":359.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.12659375000004,"end":369.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.86346875000004,"end":372.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.28909375,"end":373.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.30596875000003,"end":373.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.32284375,"end":373.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.49159375000005,"end":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院長好 部長好首先請教一個我們所有高雄的委員都在問的問題就是這個高鐵進市區其實現在高雄人都非常非常關心尤其其實現在談論的路線有經過我的選區而且範圍非常大我相信部長也知道是"},{"start":42.387,"end":68.027,"text":"那當然前面其實大家都在提說高雄到底高鐵要不要進市區這個過去或許已經經歷過一個錯誤決策了就是在2010年大家都會拿出來的這個公文也就是時任在馬政府時期的交通部長毛志國以及葉匡石次長當時簽下的這張公文這張公文簽下去對於高雄人來說就是十幾年快20年的痛"},{"start":69.448,"end":84.173,"text":"這個是老高雄人的痛是因為當時其實高雄車站裡面已經預留高鐵的月台了那但是並沒有啟用也沒有開始工程嘛所以當時的錯誤決策導致這十幾年來大家都在討論說欸為什麼當時沒有進到市區導致現在還要重啟這樣的討論"},{"start":89.855,"end":90.095,"text":"當時的討論是以左營為主"},{"start":118.339,"end":137.439,"text":"沒錯,在這個可行性評估裡面我把全部的內容都讀完了那裡面其實把所有的方案做了一次比較那當時其實有提到說是因為左營的方案就工程技術面用地拆遷面其實都相較高雄方案來得容易一點"},{"start":139.522,"end":165.315,"text":"然後還有經費啦那可是呢所以我當時就其實高雄人都說喔那原來要走左營方案可是直到今年2月開始有一些新的聲音出來我不知道說是到後面已經開始進行技術上的更細緻的評估發現說左營方案其實不可行還是怎麼樣所以到了7月其實我跟李柏宇委員有請鐵道局來跟我們說明到底現在遇到什麼困難了"},{"start":166.315,"end":190.719,"text":"是不是真的要變成走高雄方案了呢?結果當時鐵道局跟我們說什麼?他說沒有啊,只有左營方案,從頭到尾就是左營方案。結果7月11日跟我們講完,7月20日交通部馬上轉頭跟媒體說我們在評估高雄方案。那我當時就覺得說,欸?我是被耍了嗎?我是被鐵道局騙了嗎?還是鐵道局跟我們欺瞞了什麼?"},{"start":194.844,"end":201.754,"text":"這中間短短9天到底為什麼這麼如此重大的決策有這麼大的轉折可不可以請部長告訴我們到底這個中間關鍵是什麼"},{"start":205.74,"end":230.576,"text":"其實我所知道那個過程當中有左營方案有高雄方案其實同時還有另外兩個方案過去的討論其實有好幾個方案在討論還有小港潮州以及燕潮方案對還有燕潮方案那有幾個方案都在討論當中還沒有到最後定案那當時為什麼鐵道局說只有這個左營方案這個我不曉得那個過程但我所知道的是其實四個方案都在討論當中"},{"start":232.602,"end":234.284,"text":"我跟委員報告520之後很短的時間內李前部長曾經來報告過"},{"start":242.602,"end":271.554,"text":"高鐵南深到這個屏東這個方案提出的是4條線我想我也知道但是這個方案當中當時比較著重在左營跟高雄這兩個方案更北更南的那個他已經不考慮了那我們那時候給交通部的做法是說你要回到去到高雄跟當地的高雄市政府當地的民意代表地方人士在做廣泛的溝通因為這個變更算是"},{"start":272.134,"end":277.787,"text":"五二零之後做的這個工作或許那幾天就是在進行這樣的討論當中"},{"start":282.579,"end":309.653,"text":"好 謝謝院長的補充說明喔 喔 院長比部長還了解清 部長要回去加油了 這個我就是要再來詢問部長的喔 因為我這幾天都聽到說 交通部很認真的在跟地方收集意見 然後在跟地方做溝通 可是就我所知 至少我的選區 不管是市民 里長 議員 還是我本人 都沒有接到任何的溝通 請問你們是跟誰溝通 做了哪些溝通"},{"start":310.713,"end":321.843,"text":"報告委員,我們跟市府有做溝通這是一方面,二方面其實我們會來舉辦三場的專家學者會議,包含地方的意見的收容的會議。 什麼時候?我們在這個月就會來辦理。會到高雄辦嗎?"},{"start":324.441,"end":350.888,"text":"當然在高雄辦,三場都會在高雄辦那當然也會邀請委員跟地方的包含民意代表也好或者是里長也好大家一起來商討一起來討論好那拜託這三場會議一定要公告讓所有的高雄市民知道因為我必須要跟部長報告這個時候其實你我走到地方每一場活動都會有人來跟我說到底高雄這個高鐵的方案要走哪一個路線怎麼走"},{"start":351.328,"end":373.216,"text":"好,我說我跟交通部要報告都只有2020年的耶。 這四年來你們最新的進展我也都不知道耶。 所以我在這邊就是講給我們所有高雄的鄉親知道,現在交通部會如何來跟地方做溝通,這個非常非常重要,尤其中間一大段經過古山區嘛。 是。"},{"start":374.237,"end":375.518,"text":"我近期會請鐵道局趕快來跟委員報告這件事情,不好意思。"},{"start":392.739,"end":420.831,"text":"好謝謝部長我為什麼要在這邊特別提這件事情是因為前面我也講過這個脈絡了過去高雄其實承受非常多那在這20年來現在其實從2020年我看這個報告到現在我們高雄又有新的進展包括輕軌也完工了包括今年年底高雄車站的站體也要完工了然後這20年來台鐵地下化高雄承受的也夠多了"},{"start":421.718,"end":446.343,"text":"那如果我們在這個時候要進到市區是不是應該要跟大家做妥善的溝通包括說其實在這個可行性評估報告裡面我也細讀了在高雄方案其實有非常多要去克服的困難不只是技術上因為就我所知現在除了只有預留月台然後其實它有橫渡線的問題因為寬度不夠你可能要拉到戰後"},{"start":447.463,"end":475.836,"text":"那這是一個,然後包括裡面要拆遷的戶數,光是2020年要拆遷的戶數,目前就已經是69戶,那個就是資料上的,現在是不是有新增,不知道。明蛙的範圍多廣,跟當時評估的報告比起來是如何,這個都要去細算,包括我們現在新站體完成了,現在有兩大棟,就在高雄車站,請部長一定要來看一下,到時候如果明蛙的範圍影響到這兩棟,是不是還要拆掉在"},{"start":477.057,"end":478.198,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":494.756,"end":510.501,"text":"目前已經挖過的那一個路段現在成為綠園道非常的漂亮我們也會要求說對綠園道的影響要縮到最小然後對交通的影響我們也希望能夠做半半施工的方式就是說影響一半不要整個把人家堵住這個部分我們會去處理"},{"start":511.201,"end":527.756,"text":"在因為淺墩工法沒有討論過,大概拆遷的戶數會比過去再更少一些,因為我們用淺墩的方法也有可能會影響到我們借用地下的那個通路權,那另外就是有可能把它拆掉之後用督根的方式再幫它蓋回來,所以影響的範圍會是最小的。"},{"start":530.617,"end":555.707,"text":"這個請委員放心因為這些務必要讓所有的市民放心因為我必須要說啦一個很大的前提高雄市民非常期待中央給予重大建設在高雄一定都是正向看待因為高雄人過去委屈很久所以現在如果高鐵願意進到市區或願意在高雄多設一站我相信沒有高雄人會反對但是中間包括說這個工期可行性評估報告裡面寫14年"},{"start":558.197,"end":566.591,"text":"14年喔!高雄過去鐵路地下化已經20年那如果你現在又新增14年是不是又讓高雄人現在馬上"},{"start":568.154,"end":569.936,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":594.258,"end":609.157,"text":"這個部分我們會盡量來努力影響最小的範圍之內來施工那過去我知道大家認為的那個黑暗期過去是那個鐵道地下化的整個過程那確實是整段都是民挖這第一點第二點除了民挖之外因為他的鐵軌還在運行"},{"start":610.539,"end":628.166,"text":"所以影響的範圍其實相對是大的那目前已經沒有鐵軌在運行了那我們再加上大量的潛墩的這個工法我相信這個影響會降到最小那我們會如果決定是高雄方案的話我們一定會跟高雄市民來承諾我們跟市政府這邊好好的配合影響大家生活最小的範圍之內來施工"},{"start":629.434,"end":649.787,"text":"好,謝謝部長的承諾,這個承諾非常重要,因為這個是高雄的百年大計,而且其實拉到高雄我相信也是有一部分的高雄人會覺得說這個可以均衡高雄南北的發展,而且對於產業的活絡,附近的商圈,一定都是有幫助的,大家樂見,但是以上的這一些過去的大家經歷的痛,"},{"start":651.068,"end":672.273,"text":"這一些承諾一定要由部長來盡力做到最大的協助。好,謝謝,非常感謝。那再來,最後一個部分我要來跟院長請求,因為其實我知道交通部算是非常的用心,在最近高雄有一個好消息,就是美聯航有來高雄設點,那這個當然是一大進展,可是還不夠。"},{"start":673.613,"end":700.6,"text":"還不夠是因為現在高雄的航班航點只有疫情前的七成那這個我相信大家都不夠滿意啦所以在這邊我也要跟拜託請部長回去努力一下也要跟院長在這邊請託是不是有機會讓高雄的航班不只是恢復到過去的百分之百的水準甚至可以再超越為什麼我說可以再超越是因為高雄是非常有市場的"},{"start":701.4,"end":719.536,"text":"因為其實目前高雄的這個航班的旅運量其實基本上都有7成5以上甚至是非日本東北亞這些都到9成以上班機是非常滿而且現在的轉機市場我相信大家也都有看到那過去在高雄其實都也非常有機會來做轉機市場"},{"start":721.963,"end":748.63,"text":"所以我希望的是不要放棄這個機會我相信現在華航長榮可能新宇都已經很積極的要投向轉機市場高雄有這個條件好不好這個可不可以來努力一下報告委員航班的部分我們正在努力目前恢復大概八成多但是航點確實只有七成那為什麼呢因為大量取消的是對岸的航點對岸的航點這個部分大概就有一些政治上的因素我們沒有辦法跟對岸來溝通"},{"start":749.77,"end":773.031,"text":"那另外的航點的部分我們正在努力因為委員們都很關心高雄幾乎每位委員都來談過沒錯我們希望能夠在飛一些長程的包含澳洲包含美國的這些航線我們正在努力當中那包含您在講的一些大型的這個航運的公司如果可以到高雄去拓展那當然更好那另外就是高雄可能機場可以作為東南亞的一個樞紐往東南亞的航線一個很重要的節點對這個部分我們會來努力"},{"start":777.179,"end":797.799,"text":"好那這個就期待我們交通部的好消息因為這個如果沒有你們來全力的協助我們也很難在這個市場上面有更多的拓展所以我希望說看什麼時候可以恢復到疫情前的這樣的航班航線航點然後也拓展新的點然後讓高雄成為新的轉機市場最棒的一個節點好不好"},{"start":798.379,"end":826.682,"text":"好那最後還有一點時間我也來跟院長來建議一下因為其實現在大家談淨零碳排那我知道的是現在航空業非常積極的要來做永續的燃油那我知道說現在桃園機場跟松山機場都有要來嘗試加中油的永續的燃油那是不是也我們回去把這個建議帶回去那是不是有機會把這樣的永續燃油還有相關的永續的建設"},{"start":827.583,"end":842.654,"text":"因為其實現在小港機場也正在有一新的工程嘛那是不是都把淨零碳排的概念帶進去我們可以走得更前面讓這個機場蓋好以及接下來使用的新的航班都可以有永續燃油以及有淨零碳排相關的設施在裡面"},{"start":843.456,"end":866.689,"text":"是的,航空的用油跟一般用油不一樣,它可以從回收的油品當中去做航空的用油。 那我們現在就是為了剛剛您說的要淨零碳排,要降低所有的使用量,所以這個部分過去合作的對象以及我們現在朝這個方向自己來看有沒有新的一個方向,這個是現在整個航空事業在努力的事情。"},{"start":867.554,"end":890.465,"text":"是,好,對,因為我知道的是目前其實我們有邀請中遊先幫我們幾個國籍的航空先試辦看看嘛,對,那我知道說目前如果連高雄的航班也都加入有沒有這樣的困難,或者是有沒有這樣的機會,如果可以的話是不是也請部長在這邊承諾接下來我們會讓高雄也來加入這個永續的行列?"},{"start":890.945,"end":906.725,"text":"是在技術產量品質都OK的情況之下我想都應該多多利用是我會請民航局趕快跟中油這邊來協調我們在高雄的這個機場的部分我們也來使用這個永續的燃油這個部分如果中油可以配合那民航局一定是樂觀其成"},{"start":907.447,"end":908.988,"text":"接下來有什麼消防機場的新的整個工程的規劃都應該要大幅的"},{"start":942.23,"end":942.511,"text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時50分）謝謝主席，請院長及陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長，還有陳部長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：院長好，部長好。首先請教一個我們所有高雄委員都在問的問題，就是高鐵進市區，其實高雄人都非常、非常關心，尤其現在談論的路線有經過我的選區，而且範圍非常大，我相信部長也知道。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員捷：當然前面大家都在提高鐵到底要不要進高雄市區，這個過去或許已經經歷過一個錯誤決策了，就是在2010年大家都會拿出來的公文，也就是時任馬政府時期的交通部長毛治國及葉匡時次長所簽下的這張公文。這張公文簽下去，對於高雄人來說，就是十幾年快二十年的痛，這個是老高雄人的痛，因為當時高雄車站裡面已經預留高鐵的月臺了，但是並沒有啟用，也沒有開始工程嘛！所以當時的錯誤決策使得這十幾年來大家都在討論為什麼沒有進到市區導致現在還要重啟這樣的討論？所以這是第一個，我必須要再次的說這個是當時的錯誤決策，如果當時有開始，或許現在早就從高雄車站可以三鐵共構了。再來是2020年，請看右邊這一張公文，這個是2020年再次重啟可行性評估，可是這個可行性評估裡都是用左營方案，對嗎？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：當時的討論是以左營為主。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，在這個可行性評估裡面，我把全部的內容都讀完了，也把裡面所有方案做了一次比較，當時有提到是因為左營方案就工程技術面、用地拆遷面都相較高雄方案來得容易一點，還有經費啦！高雄人都說：喔！原來要走左營方案。可是直到今年2月開始有一些新的聲音出來，我不知道是到後面已經開始進行技術上更細緻的評估，發現左營方案其實不可行還是怎麼樣，所以到了7月，我跟李柏毅委員請鐵道局來跟我們說明到底現在遇到什麼困難了，是不是真的要變成走高雄方案了呢？結果當時鐵道局跟我們說什麼？他說沒有啊！只有左營方案，從頭到尾就是左營方案。結果7月11號跟我們講完，7月20號交通部馬上轉頭跟媒體說，他們在評估高雄方案。我當時就覺得我是被耍了嗎？我是被鐵道局騙了嗎？還是鐵道局跟我們欺瞞了什麼？這中間短短9天，到底為什麼如此重大的決策有這麼大的轉折？可不可以請部長告訴我們，到底這個中間關鍵是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：其實我所知道那個過程當中，有左營方案、有高雄方案，同時還有另外兩個方案，過去的討論其實有好幾個方案在討論。"],["黃委員捷：是的，還有小港、潮州以及燕巢方案。"],["陳部長世凱：對，還有燕巢方案。有幾個方案都在討論當中，還沒有到最後定案。當時為什麼鐵道局說只有左營方案，這個我不曉得那個過程，但我所知道的是其實4個方案都在討論當中。"],["黃委員捷：部長，你不能不曉得，這個拜託你回去了解，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我回去了解。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，520之後，很短的時間內，以前部長曾經來報告過高鐵南伸到屏東方案，提出了4條線，我想委員也知道。"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是4個方案當中，當時比較著重在左營跟高雄這兩個方案。"],["黃委員捷：確實。"],["卓院長榮泰：更北、更南的已經不考慮了，我們那時候給交通部的作法是，你要回到高雄跟當地的包括高雄市政府、民意代表、地方人士再做廣泛的溝通，因為這個變更算是大的。"],["黃委員捷：非常重大。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以他們有做這樣的工作，或許我說520之後做的這個工作，或許那幾天就是在進行這樣的討論當中，時間我沒辦法掌握。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長的補充說明，院長比部長還了解，請部長要回去加油了。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：這就是我要再來詢問部長的，因為我這幾天都聽到交通部很認真地在跟地方蒐集意見，然後在跟地方做溝通，可是就我所知，至少我的選區，不管是市民、里長、議員還是我本人都沒有接到任何的溝通，請問你們是跟誰溝通？做了哪些溝通？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們跟市府有做溝通，這是一方面；二方面，我們會舉辦三場的專家學者會議，包含地方的意見收攏的會議。"],["黃委員捷：什麼時候？"],["陳部長世凱：我們在這個月就會來辦理，這個月就開始來辦理。"],["黃委員捷：會到高雄辦嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：當然在高雄辦，三場都會在高雄辦，當然也會邀請委員，跟地方的包含民意代表也好或是里長也好，大家一起來商討、一起來討論。"],["黃委員捷：好，拜託這三場會議一定要公告，讓所有的高雄市民知道。"],["陳部長世凱：這個一定的。"],["黃委員捷：因為我必須要跟部長報告，這個時候其實我走到地方每一場活動，都會有人來跟我說，到底高雄高鐵的方案要走哪一個路線、怎麼走，然後我說我跟交通部要報告都只有2020年的，這四年來你們最新的進展，我也都不知道耶！所以我在這邊就是講給我們所有高雄的鄉親知道，現在交通部會如何來跟地方做溝通，這個非常、非常重要，尤其中間一大段經過鼓山區嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員捷：我不知道為什麼經過我的選區，可是到現在我什麼資料都沒有，我還只能看著2020年的舊資料來跟大家推估說目前大致上交通部的評估只有到這樣的地步。"],["陳部長世凱：抱歉，報告委員，我近期會請鐵道局趕快來跟委員報告這件事情，不好意思。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。我為什麼要在這邊特別提這件事情？是因為前面我也講過這個脈絡了。過去高雄其實承受非常多，在這二十年來，其實從2020年，我看這個報告到現在，我們高雄又有新的進展，包括輕軌也完工了，包括今年年底高雄車站的站體也要完工了，然後這二十年來臺鐵地下化，高雄承受的也夠多了，如果我們在這個時候要進到市區，是不是應該要跟大家做妥善的溝通？其實這個可行性評估報告裡面我也細讀了，在高雄方案其實有非常多要去克服的困難，不只是技術上，因為就我所知，現在除了預留月臺，然後其實它有橫渡線的問題，因為寬度不夠，你可能要拉到站後，這是一個；包括要拆遷的戶數，光是2020年要拆遷的戶數就已經是69戶，那個就是資料上的，現在是不是有新增？不知道；明挖的範圍多廣，跟當時評估的報告比起來是如何，這個都要去細算，包括我們現在新站體完成了，現在有兩大棟就在高雄車站，請部長一定要來看一下，到時候如果明挖的範圍影響到這兩棟，是不是還要拆掉部分，然後要再重蓋？這個都是很大的問題啊！所以拜託以上講的這些……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛剛所說的那兩棟不會影響到，他們現在會用大量的潛盾工法，明挖會儘量減少，這是一個部分。"],["黃委員捷：一定要縮少到最小。"],["陳部長世凱：第二個部分就是，目前已經挖過的那一個路段，現在成為綠園道，非常地漂亮，我們也會要求對綠園道的影響要縮到最小，然後對交通的影響，我們也希望能夠做半半施工的方式，就是影響一半，不要整個把人家堵住，這個部分我們會去處理。再來，潛盾工法我們有討論過，大概拆遷的戶數會比過去再更少一些，因為我們用潛盾的方法，也有可能會影響到我們借用地下通路權；另外，有可能把它拆掉之後，用都更的方式再把它蓋回來，所以影響的範圍會是最小的，這個請委員放心。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長說明，因為這些務必要讓所有的市民放心。我必須要說一個很大的前提，高雄市民非常期待中央給予重大建設在高雄，一定都是正向看待，因為高雄人過去委屈很久，所以現在如果高鐵願意進到市區或願意在高雄多設一站，我相信沒有高雄人會反對，但是中間包括這個工期，可行性評估報告裡面寫14年，14年喔！高雄過去鐵路地下化已經20年，如果你現在又新增14年，是不是又讓高雄人不知道心情該是如何，非常地複雜。所以如果能夠像剛剛說的，明挖範圍縮到最小，拆遷戶數縮到最小，然後包括用最大量的潛盾，讓民眾可以接受在半半施工的情況下，交通黑暗期非常短，即便接下來可能工期14年，我不知道，但是絕對不會影響到市民的生活，這個是不是部長可以在這邊承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們會儘量來努力，影響最小的範圍之內來施工，我知道大家認為的那個黑暗期，過去是鐵道地下化的過程，那確實整段都是明挖，這是第一點；第二點，除了明挖之外，因為它的鐵軌還在運行，所以影響範圍其實相對是大的，目前已經沒有鐵軌在運行了，我們再加上大量的潛盾工法，我相信這個影響會降到最小。如果決定是高雄方案的話，我們一定會跟高雄市民承諾，我們跟市政府這邊好好的配合，在影響大家生活最小的範圍之內來施工。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的承諾，這個承諾非常重要，因為這個是高雄的百年大計，其實拉到高雄，也是有一部分的高雄人覺得這個可以均衡高雄南北的發展，而且對於產業的活絡、附近的商圈一定都是有幫助的，大家樂見；但是以上這些大家過去心裡的痛，這些一定要由部長承諾盡力做到最大的協助。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來努力。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝，非常感謝！再來，最後一個部分我要跟院長請求，我知道交通部算是非常用心，最近高雄有一個好消息就是美聯航有來高雄設點，這個當然是一大進展，可是還不夠！還不夠是因為現在高雄的航班、航點只有疫情前的七成，這部分我相信大家都不夠滿意，所以在這邊我也要拜託部長回去努力一下，也要在這邊跟院長請託，是不是有機會讓高雄的航班不只是恢復到過去百分之百的水準，甚至可以再超越！","為什麼我說可以再超越？因為高雄是非常有市場的，其實目前高雄的航班旅運量基本上都有七成五以上，甚至飛日本、東北亞的這些都到九成以上，班機非常滿，而且現在的轉機市場我相信大家也都有看到，過去高雄其實也非常有機會來做轉機市場，所以我希望不要放棄這個機會，我相信現在華航、長榮，可能星宇都已經很積極的要投向轉機市場，高雄有這個條件，好不好？這個可不可以來努力一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，航班的部分我們正在努力，目前恢復大概八成多，但是航點確實只有七成。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：為什麼呢？因為大量取消的是對岸的航點，對岸的航點這個部分大概就有一些政治上的因素，我們沒有辦法跟對岸來溝通；其他航點的部分我們正在努力，因為委員們都很關心高雄，幾乎每位委員都來談過。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望能夠再飛一些長程的，包含澳洲、包含美國這些航線，我們正在努力當中，包含您講的一些大型航運公司如果可以到高雄去拓展那當然更好；另外，高雄的機場可能可以作為東南亞的一個樞紐，往東南亞的部分航線、新南向的航線……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，新南向一個很重要的節點。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個部分我們會來努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個就期待我們交通部的好消息，因為這個如果沒有你們來全力協助，我們也很難在這個市場上面有更多的拓展，所以看什麼時候可以恢復到疫情前的航班、航線、航點，然後也拓展新的點，讓高雄成為新的轉機市場中最棒的一個節點，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員捷：最後還有一點時間，我也來跟院長建議一下，現在大家談淨零碳排，我知道現在航空業非常積極要來做永續燃油，現在桃園機場跟松山機場都要嘗試加中油的永續燃油，請把這個建議帶回去，是不是有機會把這樣的永續燃油還有相關的永續建設……因為現在小港機場也有新的工程，那是不是都把淨零碳排的概念帶進去？我們可以走得更前面，讓這個機場蓋好以及接下來使用的新航班都可以有永續燃油以及有淨零碳排相關的設施在裡面？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，航空用油跟一般用油不一樣，它可以從回收的油品當中去做航空的用油，我們現在為了剛剛您說的要淨零碳排、要降低所有的使用量，這個部分有過去合作的對象，以及我們現在朝這個方向自己來看有沒有新的一個方向，這個是現在整個航空事業在努力的事情。"],["黃委員捷：對，因為我知道的是，目前我們其實有邀請中油先幫幾個國籍航空先試辦看看，如果連高雄的航班也都加入有沒有困難？或者是有沒有這樣的機會？如果可以的話，是不是也請部長在這邊承諾，接下來我們會讓高雄也來加入這個永續的行列？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，在技術、產量、品質都OK的情況之下，我想都應該多多利用。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我會請民航局趕快跟中油這邊來協調，在高雄機場的部分也來使用永續的燃油，這個部分如果中油可以配合，那民航局一定是樂觀其成。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝，非常感謝部長。另外一個部分就是韌性機場，因為最近國際上有非常多的機場都因為極端氣候，造成了一些影響，不管是關西機場之前淹大水，還是倫敦的機場跑道因為太高溫然後融化，像這種情況其實臺灣也都很有可能面臨挑戰，接下來尤其是我們小港機場整個新工程的規劃，都應該要納入韌性機場一些設施的設計標準。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","委員李坤城之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員李坤城書面質詢：","賴清德總統的政策宣示，除了尚未執行完畢、114年度仍須繼續執行的延續性編列特別預算計劃外，不再新增任何特別預算計畫。因前瞻計畫餘額114年僅剩703億，原納入前瞻計畫未及編列的預算，114年都回歸公務預算的公共建設支出。","以交通部為例，因前瞻計畫移入，使交通部主管預算從1,190億增加至1,579億，成長率為32.7%，相較於114年總預算歲出成長率為9.8%，顯然高出很多。檢視5個都會地區的捷運計畫，由前瞻預算改列公務預算，114年的編列情況：","1.臺北都會區大眾捷運系統環狀線北環段及南環段，中央負擔326.9億，108年至113年度已編列55.6億，114年度續編13億，還差258.3億。","2.臺北都會區大眾捷運系統三鶯線，中央款負擔185.4億，105至113年度已編列133.1億，114年續編9億，還差43.3億。","3.桃園都會區大眾捷運系統航空城捷運線，中央負擔397.4億，104至113年度已編列210億，114年度續編17億，還差170.4億。","4.臺中捷運藍線建設計畫，中央負擔675.5億，110至113年度已編列6億，114年度續編5億，還差664.5億。","5.高雄都會區大眾捷運系統都會線（黃線），中央負擔833.8億，109至113年度已編列27.5億，114年度續編30億，還差776.3億。","5個都會地區的捷運計畫，114年也只編了74億，未來還要編列1,912.8億，若連同台鐵立體化工程補助，當所有其他軌道建設的補助，來到編列高峰期時，在沒有特別預算的情況下，勢必排擠其他交通部其它的預算。","本席所當心就是停車場興建補助，在前瞻預算計畫中，原規劃200億元，後修正新增60億元共有260億元，但這些額度已於112年4月前就核撥完畢，顯見各地方政府的需求。以新北市為例，中央共補助25件，金額為45.04億元，若沒有前瞻預算補助，以新北市的財政能力，這些停車場要延後很多年。","以本席的選區新北市三重區為例，停車需求一直無法得到滿足，雖然前瞻預算已經補助6座停車場，但仍有5座等待補助興建。本席於今年6月於卓院長上任的施政總質詢時，建議要繼續編列停車場興建補助預算。前瞻特別預算第5期114年預算中，匡列了41億停車興建補助經費，但這些都已經核撥完畢了。","新北市三重區需要中央補助興建之停車場，這5座所需的中央補助經費就高達17億多。要等待前瞻預算的結餘款，幾乎沒有機會，若要以地方財源來興建，興建的時程必定延宕很多年，無法紓解目前三重地區停車困難的問題。","目前，交通部已經呈報「改善停車問題計畫第3次修正計畫」給行政院，將計畫時程延至118年，並再增加60億經費，將總經費提高到320億，爰要求行政院能夠依交通部計畫，早日核定，讓地方政府能夠依財政能力，提早規劃申請補助的時程，同時，也要求行政院繼續滾動式檢討，適時調整並增加補助停車場興建的經費額度。"],["主席：下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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最近這段期間,對於藝人館的交通建設或是一些技展聲音, 能夠進入同樣的想法,在向我們行政院來要求和拜託。 我也希望說未來在我們党運中大量的行政團隊, 能夠做回來為藝人,我們來拚建設、聽官說。 拜託我們一定。"},{"start":84.226,"end":109.817,"text":"首先我想要請教議長就是對於宜蘭鐵路工業的部分目前我們所進行的是在六月12日通過環境的影響評估順利在9月2日我們的經費部分遞到中央的增援已經有著落目前進入的是綜合部委會部分我想要請教議長就是說"},{"start":112.014,"end":119.421,"text":"因為在年底的部分,我們有機會會報應來請出這個協定的結尾,我拜託議長就是針對這個部分,要盡量來幫我們倒三天。 兩年來到底有發生什麼事嗎?"},{"start":127.76,"end":144.868,"text":"中規之後鐵道局還要送到交通部去審議,那如果其中順利的話,我想往後推的速度我們就可以掌握,那如果還有一些問題交通部應該積極去解決,交通部比較了解。我們盡量努力在兩年之內來動工。兩年內可以順利來動工?"},{"start":147.449,"end":148.77,"text":"那兩年動工,那我們有沒有一個期程,大概什麼時候可以?"},{"start":171.39,"end":180.766,"text":"我們原本的計畫是希望在合定之後的10年之內要完工合定之後就是由政院合定之後我們希望趕10年之內可以趕快完成給宜蘭的鄉親"},{"start":182.495,"end":206.911,"text":"我還是拜託我們部長跟院長我們如果假設在這個過程裡面我們可以完善所有的相關配套那減少這個工程期間的這個交通黑暗期包括未來的這個高鐵延伸、移燃我都希望能夠縮短期程能夠讓整個工程可以盡早來完工這個部分可能要請我們教導我們會設法來提升效率在地方上需要的盡快完成"},{"start":207.95,"end":227.937,"text":"另外我們宜蘭往南的一個交通路網最主要的應該就是蘇蛙公路了那在近期內看到這個風災還有地震的情況導致我們這個蘇蛙公路在崇德的那一段好像很明顯因為土石沖刷導致那個地方不管是道路或鐵路"},{"start":228.387,"end":228.827,"text":"部長,我們目前進度到哪裡?"},{"start":244.2,"end":269.714,"text":"報告委員,我們蘇花庵的部分在10月15日國發會有召開會議,那也予以支持。所以之後我們公路局就會接續來辦理設計還有用地取得。我們希望在121年能夠完工,達到通車的階段。這是蘇花庵的部分。那國道5號接蘇花改的部分也剛好在今年的10月16日也得到了國發會的支持。"},{"start":270.114,"end":294.07,"text":"那我們也是一樣,一併跟蘇花安一樣,我們希望在民國121年能夠達到通車的階段。都是121年?對,我們都希望能夠努力在121年能夠達到通車的階段。這個我們期待啦,期待這個安全的道路盡早來完工。我相信是讓民眾通行更加安全無虞,也是我們政府這個利益良善的一個出發點。那另外就是針對"},{"start":295.046,"end":295.066,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":325.026,"end":325.206,"text":"﹚陳俊宇"},{"start":343.604,"end":344.124,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":362.978,"end":363.018,"text":"好,謝謝部長"},{"start":387.709,"end":407.063,"text":"接續要問的就是藍色公路在1975年的時候曾經我們有花蓮輪往返基隆到花蓮當時這條路線也是非常的夯也造成許多民眾可能有一種度假形式搭乘的心態"},{"start":408.766,"end":429.146,"text":"他當時他是船運比較慢,他如果從花蓮開到基隆可能是7.5個小時,也就是晚上開船之後,民眾就上船就開始睡覺,然後到基隆可能就是早上就可以去上班或去旅遊。那當然現在的船隻的運輸的速度應該也都提升了。"},{"start":430.686,"end":445.105,"text":"之前也有利納倫的加入,因為蘇花改完工之後,減少通車的時間,也降低相關通行的安全之後,利納倫就黯然收場了。"},{"start":449.509,"end":476.236,"text":"現在就看起來假設我們現在蘇花改跟蘇花安工程還沒有完成之前剛剛陳儒部長您所說的我們也有在規劃看能不能再增加一條這個藍色公路我希望說可不可以讓它變成是常態性可是這個有兩個原因兩個這個部分需要我們這個中央部會要去協助的就是有沒有辦法再縮短"},{"start":476.957,"end":487.996,"text":"航運的時間這個可能就是要選擇船隻他可能運輸的時間會比較快一點這是第一點減少運輸時間第二就是可能要降低這個票價的部分"},{"start":489.417,"end":509.448,"text":"我希望說這個部分看能不能交通部去研議看看有機會的話把藍色公路再重新建置起來增加誘因讓民眾可以這個選擇搭乘海運的部分有沒有辦法報告委員我們這個航港局我有交代他們在9月18號有召開了藍色公路的這個可行性的這個"},{"start":510.128,"end":511.529,"text":"這部分要請部長後續再增加這個機會因為蘇澳這個"},{"start":539.787,"end":551.802,"text":"蘇澳港的新建旅運中心也順利在6月30起用了那未來我們也希望說這一條藍色公路建置之後不管是我們國內的跳島旅遊還是我們現在目前"},{"start":552.352,"end":557.835,"text":"我相信這個藍色公路也可以相對的帶動宜蘭的相關的這個產業跟觀光的發展,所以請我們交通部這邊更加的積極的來辦理。另外就是我們這個宜蘭縣,宜蘭縣物產豐富"},{"start":578.466,"end":602.863,"text":"這個自然的風景美不勝收這我相信在我們全台灣旅遊的這個廊帶上宜蘭縣應該是排名在前三名那我想我們有沒有機會可以來爭取宜蘭縣單獨申請這個國家級的風景區管理處全面來規劃推展宜蘭的這個觀光院長這個有沒有可能"},{"start":606.014,"end":624.862,"text":"關光的事情當然全國各地好的地點還是要經過評估啦那現在就交通部夜館裡面已經有很多的風景區是國家交通部那是不是要增設一套的評鑑的標準跟選擇的標準我們請交通部來跟委員商量一下怎麼來進行"},{"start":627.377,"end":651.994,"text":"這部分可能就請部長我們會後再討論這個好了我希望說能夠在宜蘭縣單獨來成立一個風景區管理處的話我相信這個量能才能夠支應宜蘭縣相關的觀光需求現階段我想請教就是東北角風景區管理處那因為他所這個轄管的範圍太大了"},{"start":655.472,"end":664.9,"text":"他北起是我們新北的瑞芳南到宜蘭縣的南方澳的內埤海灣總面積是達到17,130公頃海岸線的長度是102.5公里所以他整個範圍這麼的寬資源有限"},{"start":678.541,"end":704.709,"text":"我是覺得說他在挹注在宜蘭的部分可能沒辦法支應讓整個宜蘭縣的需求都能夠滿足所以才會要求說看能不能單獨來申請那現在我們地方就是形成一個這個現階段的要求就是希望我們能夠南沿到這個宜蘭縣跟花蓮的這個交界口和平溪口和平溪的這個溪口"},{"start":705.185,"end":733.24,"text":"那部長這個部分有沒有可能?這個部分我們其實也在研議當中啦我們7月9號已經有委託專業的這個顧問公司在針對範圍擴大的部分來做檢討那我們陳經德政委也非常關心這個議題他也曾經到縣地去看那也有特別要求說我們這個南沿的部分要盡量來努力來協助協助宜蘭的這個觀光的發展那目前我們正在研究不過委員您剛剛所提到確實我們這個東北角的這個管理處的管轄範圍實在是非常的大"},{"start":733.86,"end":734.761,"text":"東北角風景區管理處目前編制是58個員額"},{"start":763.66,"end":784.313,"text":"我們行政院目前核定有15個員額有可能就是欲缺不補那會造成未來假設我們整個風景區管理處的轄管的範圍增大可是人員又不足的情況之下有可能在未來5年會從58個人剩下40個人那這個情況我們要怎麼因應"},{"start":785.909,"end":810.947,"text":"我們盡量來爭取緣額,這是一方面,二方面針對工作效率上有沒有什麼更可以優化或精進的部分,但是人力的緣額我們會努力來爭取。那另外我們宜蘭縣,我剛剛講我們的天然資源非常的豐富,那我們的山、海、還有野溪、還有這個海洋的部分,我們宜蘭縣總共有19處的溫泉。"},{"start":813.405,"end":840.795,"text":"還有一處是全世界唯二、亞洲唯一的人權所以在宜蘭縣我們有這麼豐富的水資源可是我們沒辦法去好好的行銷在我們有時候我不曉得我們院長跟部長您出國的當下如果我們今天要去日本會不會去看行程說我們今天晚上這個行程裡面有沒有其中一個晚上可以在日本的哪一個地方可以好好的泡湯來這個"},{"start":842.529,"end":869.698,"text":"休息一下假設我們可以把這種概念加注在這個這個我們宜蘭縣推廣這個觀光的行銷上我要拜託我們交通部能不能協助來建構一個平台由我們中央的這個交通部這邊配合地方的縣政府還有這個還有原民會要加入因為有一些野溪的這個溫泉是在這個原住民這個部落裡面"},{"start":870.424,"end":898.138,"text":"那再加上地方的這些鄉鎮市公所把這個平臺架構好之後包括我們剛剛講的這些溫泉還有一些優質的這些觀光旅宿業那還有我們宜蘭縣有17處的這個休閒農業區再加上一些優質的這些這個農特產品還有美食的這個餐飲業我想這個平臺架構完成之後能夠提供給遊客"},{"start":899.933,"end":903.783,"text":"來到台灣甚至要去宜蘭深度旅遊的時候有一個比較明確的選擇"},{"start":905.455,"end":910.597,"text":"我想這部分可不可以請交通部來協助一下?我們希望說未來宜蘭縣市好山好水好氣頭好不好?"},{"start":938.237,"end":938.518,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":152,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時34分）好，謝謝大會主席江副院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["陳委員俊宇：院長早安。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：院長早，辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["陳委員俊宇：這段時間為了總預算，院長非常用心帶領著行政團隊四處在奔波，感謝你。當然整個國家的政策及相關建設也都是延續性的，特別感謝卓院長對於重責大任的承攬，在此我也要謝謝在野黨幾位立委最近這段期間對於宜蘭縣的交通建設或是一些基層聲音，可以跟本席有一樣的想法，向行政院要求及拜託，我也希望未來卓院長所帶領的行政團隊可以一起來為宜蘭拚建設、挺觀光，拜託院長。","首先我想請教院長有關宜蘭鐵路高架的部分，目前所進行的是在6月12日通過環境影響評估，同時經費的部分也順利在9月26日得到中央的增援，現在已經有著落。目前進入的是綜合規劃的部分，我想要請教院長，年底如果有機會我們就會報院爭取核定的計畫，我要拜託院長針對這個部分盡力來幫忙，請問兩年內到底有沒有辦法動工？"],["卓院長榮泰：綜規之後，鐵道局還要送到交通部去審議，如果期中順利的話，我想往後推的速度我們就可以掌握；如果還有一些問題，交通部應該積極去解決，交通部比較了解。"],["陳部長世凱：我們儘量努力在兩年之內動工。"],["陳委員俊宇：兩年內可以順利來動工？"],["陳部長世凱：委員一直在爭取，也一直在推動這件事，當然我們速度會加快，所以在部裡面審議的程序我們會加快，之後就會送給院，院核定之後，就會進入開始設計規劃的部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：如果兩年內動工，那我們有沒有一個期程大概什麼時候可以掌握到它可以有一個完工的機會？"],["陳部長世凱：我們原本的計畫是希望在核定之後的十年之內要完工，就是由政院核定之後，我們希望在十年之內可以趕快完成給宜蘭的鄉親。"],["陳委員俊宇：我還是拜託部長跟院長，假設在這個過程裡面我們可以完善所有相關配套，減少工程期間的交通黑暗期，包括未來的高鐵延伸宜蘭，我都希望能夠縮短期程，能夠讓整個工程儘早完工，這個部分可能要請交通部……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會設法提升效率，就是地方上需要的儘快完成。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，宜蘭往南的交通路網最主要的應該就是蘇花公路了，近期內看到這個風災還有地震的情況，導致蘇花公路在崇德的那一段好像很明顯毀損，因為土石沖刷導致那個地方，不管是道路或鐵路經常都產生中斷的情況。對於目前進行中的蘇花安以及蘇花改延伸到國道5號，我想請教部長這個部分目前進度到哪裡了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對蘇花安的部分，10月15號國發會有召開會議，也予以支持，所以之後公路局就會接續辦理設計還有用地取得，我們希望在121年能夠完工，達到通車的階段，這是蘇花安的部分。至於國道5號接蘇花改的部分，剛好在今年10月16號也得到國發會的支持，這部分也是一併跟蘇花安一樣，我們希望在民國121年能夠達到通車的階段。"],["陳委員俊宇：都是121年？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們都希望能夠努力在121年達到通車階段。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們期待這條安全的道路能夠儘早完工，我相信這會讓民眾通行更加安全無虞，也是我們政府立意良善的一個出發點。","另外就是針對我們所建立的三小時SOP疏運計畫，假設在這個路段又產生道路或是鐵路中斷的時候，目前我們安排的情況是怎樣？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，針對這個部分，我們有分海、陸、空三個部分。陸運的部分，如果是蘇花中斷，那我們就是往南，所以南迴鐵路我們會加開班次，另外再合併到高鐵，高鐵也會加開班次，銜接南迴接到西部的那一段，所以高鐵跟臺鐵會合併來執行這個疏運的部分。另外，針對空運的部分，只要發生路廊中斷狀況的時候，我們的空運會馬上來爭取班機，像上一次9月8日有一次中斷的時候，那個時候天候的狀況可以，我們馬上就增開班機來疏運比較急的旅客，比較不急的大概就是走鐵路、走南迴。","至於海運的部分，其實到目前為止，我們希望能夠快速地啟動，但因為我們在那邊沒有固定的船班，所以都要跟馬祖調新臺馬輪，而調新臺馬輪過來大概也要一天到兩天的時間，這個時間會稍微晚一點。所以目前我們也有在討論要不要建立一個旅遊型態，平日就有的藍色公路的建置，如果有的話，未來在海運的部分可以馬上接上來，疏運的速度會再更快一些。以上跟委員報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。我接續要問的就是藍色公路，在1975年的時候，我們曾經有花蓮輪往返基隆到花蓮，當時這條路線也是非常地夯，造成許多民眾可能有一種渡假形式的搭乘心態，當時它是船運，比較慢，如果從花蓮開到基隆可能是7.5個小時，也就是晚上開船之後，民眾上船就開始睡覺，然後到基隆可能就是早上，就可以去上班或去旅遊。當然，現在船隻運輸的速度應該也都提升了，之前也有麗娜輪的加入，因為蘇花改完工通車之後，減少了通車的時間，也降低了相關通行安全的疑慮之後，麗娜輪就黯然地收場了。","現在看起來，假設現在蘇花改跟蘇花安工程還沒有完成之前，剛剛誠如部長您所說的，我們也有在規劃，看能不能再增加一條藍色公路。我希望可不可以讓它變成是常態性，可是這個有兩個部分需要中央部會要去協助的，就是有沒有辦法再縮短航運的時間，這個可能要選擇船隻，這樣運輸的時間會比較快一點，這是第一點，就是減少運輸時間，第二就是可能要降低票價的部分。所以我希望這個部分交通部能不能去研議看看，有機會的話，把藍色公路再重新建置起來，增加誘因，讓民眾可以選擇搭乘海運的部分，有沒有辦法？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我有交代我們航港局在9月18日召開了藍色公路的可行性研討會議，這個部分我們正在討論當中，我也希望能夠建置起來，如果到時候蘇花公路很不幸地又發生中斷狀態的時候，其實海運的運量也滿大的，我們希望能夠馬上補齊這個輸運的部分。所以這個部分我們正在努力，9月18日已經有召開過會議，後續我們會再持續來推動。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這個部分要請部長後續再增加這個機會。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：蘇澳港的新建旅運中心也順利在6月30日啟用了，未來我們也希望這一條藍色公路建置之後，不管是我們國內的跳島旅遊，還是現在目前地方也在推行看能不能跟日本的石垣島、甚至與那國島做對開，我相信這個藍色公路也可以相對地帶動宜蘭相關的產業跟觀光發展，所以請交通部更加積極來辦理。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，我們宜蘭縣物產豐富，自然的風景美不勝收，我相信在我們全臺灣旅遊的廊帶上，宜蘭縣應該是排名在前三名，我們有沒有機會可以來爭取宜蘭縣單獨申請設立國家級的風景區管理處，全面來規劃推展宜蘭的觀光，院長，這個有沒有可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：觀光的事情，當然全國各地好的地點還是要經過評估，現在就交通部業管裡面已經有很多的國家風景區，風景區是歸交通部，是不是要增設，要一套的評鑑標準跟選擇的標準，我們請交通部來跟委員商量一下怎麼來進行。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，這個我們會後再討論好了。"],["陳部長世凱：我可以跟委員再詳細來瞭解。"],["陳委員俊宇：我希望能夠在宜蘭縣單獨成立一個風景區管理處，這樣的話，我相信這個量能才能夠支應宜蘭縣相關的觀光需求，現階段我想請教東北角風景區管理處，因為它所轄管的範圍太寬、太大了，北起是新北瑞芳，南至宜蘭縣的南方澳內埤海灣，總面積達到1萬7,130公頃，海岸線長度是102.5公里，所以它的整個範圍這麼寬，資源有限，我覺得挹注在宜蘭的部分可能沒辦法支應，讓整個宜蘭縣的需求都能夠滿足，所以才會要求能不能單獨來申請。現在我們地方形成一個現階段的要求，就是希望能夠南延到宜蘭縣和花蓮的交界口和平溪口，部長，這個部分有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們其實也在研議當中，我們7月9日已經有委託專業的顧問公司，針對範圍擴大的部分來做檢討，我們陳金德政委也非常關心這個議題，他也曾經到現地去看，也有特別要求南延的部分要儘量努力，來協助宜蘭的觀光發展，目前我們正在研究。不過委員剛剛所提到的，確實我們的東北角管理處管轄範圍實在是非常的大，一方面是資源的問題，二方面其實處裡面的人也在跟我反映人力不太夠，這個部分我們正在努力，所以我們雙方面來努力，一方面我們正在規劃擴大範圍，二方面針對人力的部分和資源的部分，我們也設法來補強，以上跟委員報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：這部分也請部長幫忙。另外，因為東北角風景區管理處目前編制是58個員額，行政院目前核定有15個員額有可能遇缺不補，這會造成未來假設整個風景區管理處的轄管範圍增大，可是人員又不足的情況之下，有可能在未來5年會從58個人剩下40個人，這個情況我們要怎麼因應？"],["陳部長世凱：我們儘量來爭取員額，這是一方面，二方面針對工作效率上有沒有什麼更可以優化或精進的部分，但是人力的員額，我們會努力來爭取。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，我剛剛講到宜蘭縣的天然資源非常豐富，包括我們的山、海、野溪，還有海洋的部分，宜蘭縣總共有19處溫泉，還有1處是全世界唯二、亞洲唯一的冷泉，所以在宜蘭縣有這麼豐富的水資源，可是我們卻沒辦法去好好的行銷。我不曉得院長和部長在出國的當下，如果你們是要去日本，你們會不會去看行程，看看晚上的行程裡面有沒有其中一個晚上可以在日本的哪一個地方好好泡湯休息一下？假設我們可以把這種概念加註在宜蘭縣推廣觀光的行銷上，我要拜託交通部能不能協助建構一個平臺，由中央交通部這邊配合地方縣政府，還有原民會也要加入，因為有一些野溪溫泉是在原住民部落裡面，再加上地方的這些鄉鎮市公所。把這個平臺架構好之後，包括我們剛剛講的這些溫泉，還有一些優質的觀光旅宿業，還有宜蘭縣有17處休閒農業區，再加上一些優質的農特產品，還有美食餐飲業，我想這個平臺架構完成之後，能夠提供給遊客來到臺灣，甚至要去宜蘭深度旅遊的時候有一個比較明確的選擇，這個部分可不可以請交通部協助一下？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒有問題，我們請觀光署跟地方政府來協調和協商，包含委員剛剛所交代的原民會的部分，我們找他們一起來討論，還有地方的鄉鎮市公所等等，大家來討論看看這個平臺怎麼建構，只要對觀光有利的，我相信觀光署都會努力來推動。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們希望未來宜蘭縣是好山、好水、好「𨑨迌」，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝院長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。接下來請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長好 院長我想跟你討論一下就是說我們現在整個安南區因為縣市合併之後其實過去安南區是原台南市的可能比較邊陲地帶可是現在因為台南縣市合併之後我們變成是一個非常重要交通路網的連接地帶所以我們現在我們過去到現在一直在爭取的"},{"start":56.596,"end":57.096,"text":"主席"},{"start":87.277,"end":103.277,"text":"因為雖然它是國土署可是它重要的是連接到我們的國道所以它從國道包括我們的外環道可是我們現在的問題就是在於如何銜接到平面"},{"start":104.638,"end":105.299,"text":"委員．陳亭妃"},{"start":119.565,"end":119.745,"text":"主席"},{"start":146.462,"end":174.554,"text":"我覺得中央跟地方的溝通真的有問題因為中央都站在一個本位主義像所有的一些路線外環道路線你一定要借用高灘地不能夠跟民宅太為接近可是我們的水利署一直堅持說有通水斷面大家可以去看一下"},{"start":175.882,"end":202.991,"text":"我們鹽水溪的高灘地它是非常非常的大一個落墩不會影響到所謂的通水斷面可是你今天如果太靠近民宅就會引發民宅的爭議那根本整個工程就進不了動不了然後到了尾巴要收尾你又把它接近整個社區"},{"start":205.865,"end":231.918,"text":"請問如果我住在那裡三、四十年我原本就是一個寧靜的社區結果你因為外環道居然把人家接到我們的社區道路居然是要變更我們的社區道路變成破除堤防你想有誰會接受"},{"start":233.806,"end":251.523,"text":"這就在我的選區從安南區這一條外環到我們爭取非常久好不容易在我們民進黨執政的時候小英政府的時候我們看到的曙光大家很期待可是當你從永康要接進來的時候"},{"start":253.976,"end":279.369,"text":"那邊因為民宅比較少大家意見不多當時候我就一直提醒當我們在爭取重大建設的時候因為我們在地方我們很清楚問題會出在哪裡我們就已經跟包括內政部、行政院相關單位提醒再提醒結果現在還是面臨同樣的問題所以"},{"start":282.403,"end":305.824,"text":"院長因為今天是交通部但是這一部分會有所謂牽扯性所以拜託院長指示一下我們是不是有一個平台請各部會請市政府研究對地方最有利的辦法"},{"start":306.687,"end":335.873,"text":"不要一意孤行一意孤行之後你功成動不了又造成民怨這不是兩敗俱傷嗎所以這個部分再麻煩院長這是屬於我們北外環道我們爭取很辛苦捏我們要撐出這條經濟是很辛苦的結果大家有了經費之後拜託說先做未雨綢繆大家都不做到了最後現在卡在這裡"},{"start":336.988,"end":361.286,"text":"很可惜再來就是我們的國道吧唯一可能是全世界啦不要說全國啦全世界唯一條啦國道有紅綠燈的啦我們也是爭取很久了也謝謝民進黨政府給了地方"},{"start":362.833,"end":386.165,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、"},{"start":386.843,"end":408.349,"text":"也擔任立委開始我們就一直在爭取這一條可是沒有辦法有正面回應還好民進黨政府上任之後聽到我們的聲音在111年5月20號行政院合定可行性評估報告高工局在111年8月展開綜合規劃作業然後在112年10月20號行政院合定建設計畫而且"},{"start":415.951,"end":429.412,"text":"在這個總建設經費總共是29.76億可是這是沒有包含聯絡到跟撤撤到我們這一次也有把聯絡到跟撤撤到再加進去"},{"start":430.632,"end":452.651,"text":"因為你沒有聯絡道跟車車道,一樣造成地方的問題。 所以我們當時也在繼續爭取聯絡道跟車車道。 所以在整個所有的再加上閘道的配合款,再加上我們主線道要維持雙向式車道,並且增設西出跟東路的閘道還有輔助車道。"},{"start":455.073,"end":481.11,"text":"還有要提供我們南133線進出國道8的功能所以這個整個預算都大為增加還好我們中藥補助當然地方也有配合我們預計是在114年初要發包施工我們看到了我們看到現在在做一些細部的"},{"start":482.202,"end":502.048,"text":"所以我們要拜託 這不能拖 這絕對不能拖 因為我們南科的發展幾乎每天到開始上下班的時候 這個地方就是塞車路段 我每天幾乎都要經過"},{"start":503.666,"end":529.617,"text":"我們每天看到他塞車的時間是越來越長越來越長而且越來越提早因為大家怕塞車所以提早結果塞車的時間是越提早塞車的時間是越長表示這個不做已經不行了所以拜託現在預計114年初發包施工我們希望要趕快"},{"start":531.092,"end":538.111,"text":"所以我今天所講的都是現在非常重要牽扯到所有外環系統、交通網絡"},{"start":540.031,"end":563.724,"text":"我們扮演的角色越來越重要所以這個部分我們請部長這個部分一定要盯緊腳步這個我會盯緊我那天其實到現場去會刊的時候您的妹妹也在現場那我們也有請高工局所有的進度都要抓緊不要去延後因為我自己在走那一段的時候也看到紅綠燈的過程確實有造成一些塞車車子蠻多的這個部分確實要趕快改善"},{"start":564.517,"end":589.073,"text":"我覺得要爭取一個重大功成 絕對不會是天上掉下來的禮物我們努力了很久 一路來到現在 努力很久 終於現在看到了所有的一個重要的成果績效 這個成果績效還沒開始 只有看到一個規模"},{"start":590.421,"end":615.677,"text":"所以拜託在114年初一定要順利完成發包施工而且要盯緊所有的進度重點交違計畫我們的交違很重要因為這時間非常的長範圍非常的廣所以交違計畫所以在另外就是我們台61線"},{"start":619.004,"end":647.487,"text":"臺61線其實臺61線是接我們曾文溪橋一直到臺86臺86然後要再接我們南延到高雄這一條我們的一個快速道路的部分就是讓我們的臺61線西濱快速道路是一個可以往我們86還有往高雄來延伸這非常重要"},{"start":648.516,"end":676.643,"text":"所以我今天講的都整個外環道而且曾文熙橋是當時候就在這個地方2016年第一次林全院長在接受施政報告質詢我的質詢的時候我所提出來然後林全院長在這裡正式允諾而且開始啟動所有的相關環評環差因為我們這裡會接近整個生態"},{"start":678.14,"end":696.196,"text":"所以我們的環評環招做得特別的仔細不能影響生態的發展所以現在都完成了所以我們才會有曾文熙橋現在已經在動工了好我們動工之後就要進入到第二階段就是曾文熙橋怎麼連接到台86"},{"start":697.637,"end":700.638,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":717.349,"end":742.186,"text":"我們的可行性評估報告公路局正義交通部113年10月18日的意見在修正當中,主要的意見是說加計廣泛性經濟效益,而且它的整個後裔本比只有1.02,"},{"start":745.316,"end":754.422,"text":"他用這樣的說法,我怕到要死了。 那個標示不要做嗎?你的後裔本比,緊,他用緊。"},{"start":755.936,"end":784.167,"text":"你知道文字 大家對於這個文字都很擔心我知道他們裡面還會再做修正 這個委員不用太擔心這個部分我們會往前推進但現在比較大的問題其實是要跟地方就路廊的部分來取得共識這個部分是比較關鍵 也比較爭議的部分但其他的部分我覺得爭議性不大沒有 現在就是我們第一個階段是你交通部你們在公路局的整個"},{"start":785.745,"end":808.863,"text":"可行性評估你們要先確認阿,如果說可行性評估都在那邊空中在飛的,你叫我們地方要怎麼能夠心安?明年1月可行性評估大概在部的部分大概就能完成,公路局就能完成,那以那個完成的版本去跟地方來談路廊的問題,我們來解決路廊的問題。部長你說的喔,明年1月這個可行性評估就會確認喔。"},{"start":809.864,"end":811.245,"text":"你這些文字對我們地方來講太可怕了"},{"start":829.321,"end":853.243,"text":"明年1月公路局就會送出來,然後從地方來訪問路廊。 交通部這邊就要確認喔,這一條是一定要做的喔,你沒有確認我們地方動不了,然後因為我們對於整個廊道的部分,基本上你有四個版本,要拜託,因為這四個版本當中,有如何對於地方的發展效益最高。"},{"start":854.324,"end":854.344,"text":"對,沒錯。對。"},{"start":874.838,"end":891.821,"text":"所以我們希望在地方重要的階段當中我們不希望因為大家的不積極然後又看到這麼重要的一條從台61如果他可以直接接86起碼要先接台86"},{"start":893.746,"end":913.465,"text":"一定要先接台86它的效益才會高然後我們第二階才去延伸到高雄我覺得我們可以做二階的一個考量所以這個部分部長麻煩然後另外一個就是我們台南機場的部分台南機場現在在12月12號我們越南包機"},{"start":914.943,"end":915.363,"text":"謝謝陳委員下一位我們請陳俊宇委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時18分）謝謝副院長。是不是請行政院卓榮泰院長？"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長好。院長，我想跟你討論一下，現在整個安南區因為縣市合併之後，其實過去安南區可能是原臺南市比較邊陲的地帶，可是現在因為臺南縣市合併之後，我們變成是一個非常重要交通路網的連接地帶，所以我們從過去到現在一直在爭取的，包括臺南都會區北外環道路，基本上從第一期在蘇院長正式到我們現場去做會勘的時候，我們就已經跟蘇院長報告、跟當時候的行政院院長報告，就是說我們應該在尾巴，也就是進行到第四期的時候。雖然這個是內政部國土署的，為什麼在今天我要把它串聯起來？雖然它是國土署的，可是重要的是它連接到國道，所以它從國道，包括外環道，現在的問題就在於如何銜接到平面？在第四期尾巴的時候，怎麼收尾？我從第一期就開始提醒中央、內政部一定要好好做好相關規劃，現在已經進入到尾端。因為四期在這一段有兩個工程，一個叫東工區，另一個叫西工區，以海安路為界，東工區現在的問題，當然就是是否要確定路線；西工區就卡在結尾的部分。","院長，我要拜託一下，我覺得中央跟地方的溝通真的有問題，因為中央都站在本位主義，有一些路線，比如外環道路線一定要借用高灘地，不能夠跟民宅太接近，可是水利署一直堅持有通水斷面的問題。大家可以去看一下，鹽水溪的高灘地非常、非常的大，落墩不會影響到所謂的通水斷面，可是今天如果太靠近民宅，就會引發爭議，工程根本就進不了、動不了，到了尾巴要收尾，你又把它接近整個社區。請問如果我住在那裡三、四十年，那裡原本就是一個寧靜的社區，結果因為外環道，居然把人家接到我們的社區道路，居然要變更我們的社區道路、變成破除堤防，你想有誰會接受？這就在我的選區，安南區這一條外環道我們爭取非常久，好不容易在民進黨執政、小英政府的時候，我們看到曙光，大家很期待。可是當從永康要接進來的時候，因為那邊民宅比較少，大家意見不多，當時我就一直提醒，在爭取重大建設的時候，因為我們在地方，很清楚問題會出在哪裡，所以就已經跟相關單位提醒再提醒，包括內政部、行政院，結果現在還是面臨同樣的問題。院長，雖然今天是交通部來備詢，但是這部分會有所謂的牽扯性，所以拜託院長指示一下，是不是能有一個平臺？請各部會及市政府研究對地方最有利的辦法，不要一意孤行，一意孤行之後，工程動不了又造成民怨，這不是兩敗俱傷嗎？這個部分再麻煩院長，這是屬於北外環道，我們爭取的很辛苦，要爭取這筆經費是很辛苦的，結果有了經費之後，拜託大家先未雨綢繆卻都不做，到了最後卡在這裡，很可惜！","再來就是國道8號，不要說全國，可能是全世界唯一一條國道有紅綠燈的！我們也是爭取很久了，也謝謝民進黨政府給了地方一個大改變，但這一條國道8號是唯一有紅綠燈的國道，這樣的奇蹟、這樣的跡象已經要改變了，我們真的爭取很久，從我上任之後當民意代表，今年17年，從我第一屆擔任立委開始，我們就一直在爭取這一條，可是沒有辦法有正面回應，還好民進黨政府上任之後，聽到我們的聲音，在111年5月20號行政院核定可行性評估報告，高公局在111年8月展開綜合規劃作業，然後在112年10月20號行政院核定建設計畫，而且這個總建設經費總共是29.76億，可是這沒有包含聯絡道跟側車道，我們這一次也有把聯絡道跟側車道再加進去，因為若沒有聯絡道跟側車道一樣造成地方的問題，我們當時候也在繼續爭取聯絡道跟側車道，所以整個所有的再加上匝道配合款，再加上我們的主線道要維持雙向四車道，並且增設西出跟東入的匝道及輔助車道，還有要提供南133線進出國道8號的功能，所以這一整個預算都大為增加。","還好我們中央有補助，當然地方也有配合，預計是在114年初要發包施工，我們看到現在在做一些細部的作業，所以我們要拜託這不能拖、這絕對不能拖，因為我們南科的發展，幾乎每天到開始上下班的時候，這個地方就是塞車路段，我每天幾乎都要經過，我們每天看到它塞車的時間是越來越長、越來越長，而且越來越提早，因為大家怕塞車，所以提早，結果塞車的時間是越提早，塞車的時間也越長，表示這個不做已經不行了，所以拜託，現在預計114年初發包施工，我們希望要趕快，所以我今天所講的都是現在非常重要，牽扯到所有外環系統、交通網絡，我們扮演的角色越來越重要，所以這個部分我們請部長，對這個部分一定要盯緊腳步。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我會盯緊，我那天其實到現場去會勘的時候，您的妹妹也在現場，我們也有請高公局所有的進度都要抓緊，不要去延後，因為我自己在走那一段的時候也看到紅綠燈的過程，確實有造成一些塞車，車子滿多的，這個部分確實要趕快改善。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得要爭取一個重大工程，絕對不會是天上掉下來的禮物。我們努力了很久，一路來到現在努力很久，終於看到了一個所有的、重要的成果績效，這個成果績效還沒開始，只有看到一個規模，所以拜託在114年初一定要順利完成發包施工，而且要盯緊所有的進度，重點──交維計畫。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們的交維很重要，因為這時間非常的長，範圍非常的廣，所以要交維計畫。","另外就是台61線，其實台61線是接曾文溪橋一直到台86，然後要再接南延到高雄這一條快速道路的部分，就是讓我們的台61線西濱快速道路是一個可以往台86還有往高雄來延伸，這非常重要，所以我今天講的都是整個外環道，而且曾文溪橋是當時候就在這個地方，2016年第一次林全院長在接受我的施政報告質詢的時候，我所提出來，然後林全院長在這裡正式允諾，而且開始啟動所有的相關環評、環差，因為這裡會接近整個生態，所以環評、環差要做得特別仔細，不能影響生態的發展，現在都完成了，所以曾文溪橋現在也已經動工了。好，動工之後，就要進入第二階段，就是曾文溪橋如何連接到臺86，再往高雄延伸，這才是一個重要的外環脈絡，所以我們講的是現階段可以做的，不是遙遙無期的。但目前我看到一個資料，感到非常驚訝，我們的可行性評估報告中提到，公路局刻正依交通部113年10月18日意見修正中（主要意見：加計廣泛性經濟效益後益本比僅1.02……）他用這樣的說法，我嚇得要死，這表示不做嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實……"],["陳委員亭妃：後益本比僅……他用「僅」字，你知道大家對於這個文字都很擔心。"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，他們還會再做修正，這個委員不用太擔心。這個部分我們會往前推進，但現在比較大的問題，其實是要跟地方就路廊部分取得共識，這個部分比較關鍵……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：也是比較爭議的部分，其他部分我覺得爭議性不大，我們會往前推進。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，現在第二階段就是交通部、公路局的整個可行性評估要先確認，如果可行性評估都在空中飛，那麼你叫我們地方怎麼能夠心安？"],["陳部長世凱：明年1月可行性評估在部的部分大概就能完成，公路局就能完成，我們會以那個完成的版本跟地方談路廊的問題，來解決路廊的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，部長，你說的喔！明年1月這個可行性評估就會確認？"],["陳部長世凱：部的部分會確認。"],["陳委員亭妃：部啊，部的部分啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對，對，確認完之後……"],["陳委員亭妃：部沒有確認，你交通部還在講說，哇！這個後益本比只有1.02，好像在跟我們講說，欸！這個好像效益不高喔！"],["陳部長世凱：這個是要再討論的內容，這個不用擔心。"],["陳委員亭妃：是嘛！你這個文字對我們地方來講太可怕了……"],["陳部長世凱：明年1月公路局就會送出來，然後跟地方討論路廊的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，1月喔！交通部這邊就要確認，這一條是一定要做的，你沒有確認，我們地方動不了。另外對於整個廊道部分，基本上你們有四個版本，要拜託部長，這四個版本當中，如何對地方的發展效益最高、能夠創造最大利多，這才是最好的方案。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個才是重要的，我想地方也經過好多個提議……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：好多個提議，所以這個部分要拜託部長，這是我們地方非常重要的建設，在重要的階段當中，我們不希望因為大家的不積極，然後看到這麼重要的一條從臺61直接接臺86的道路，起碼要先接臺86，一定要先接臺86，它的效益才會高，然後第二階段才延伸到高雄，我覺得這個可以做二階考量，這個部分要麻煩部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：另外一個是臺南機場的問題，臺南機場在12月12號有越南包機，可是我覺得我們應該把臺南機場的重要性往前邁進，不能因為現在大家都坐高鐵，國內班機不飛了，就把它閒置在那邊，我覺得應該要有更好的規劃，拜託，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員。","下一位我們請陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}},{"id":"155870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155870","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fa6d6efceb204fe5f03e12bc448a8604ade09287612b20ad66daa4be0611873b902e5fb76f63ae845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:02:59 - 09:18:30","影片長度":"00:15:31","會議時間":"2024-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。 二、10月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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首先還是要談其實我認為總預算其實是憲政的問題是權力分立是責任政治的問題那行政跟立法應該本以自己的憲政權責來施政我認為這個才是國家之福那現在我們的憲法的規定跟預算法的規定其實都非常的清楚那這個院長後面這樣的僵局怎麼解決你怎麼看"},{"start":45.421,"end":61.747,"text":"謝謝委員讓我再度有機會來說出我心裡從一開始到今天為止始終如一的一個想法只有一種想法就只能我在上一次的臉書的文章所說的其實行政院只有一個立場只有一個堅持"},{"start":62.927,"end":77.865,"text":"就是以後編列預算一定要按照憲法70條的精神,預算法93條的規定,如果立法院在審查預算的時候有增加稅出減少稅入,一定要遵循行政院的意見。"},{"start":78.866,"end":105.558,"text":"同時要指出資金彌補資金的來源必要的時候還要進行必要的修法如果能夠進行這樣的程序兩院之間互相尊重毫無問題院長提出一個很關鍵性的問題就過去以來有的話通常也都是行政院其實是認可的也支持的所以才能夠進行但行政院有所疑慮要負這個政治責任的其實最後是行政院提出來任何"},{"start":106.098,"end":132.366,"text":"那國家的資源有限下的時候一定要做一些適度一些調配跟整理那如果現在26億可以不經行政院的同意就強行的要求的話那接下來260億那可能更多的經費那國家的財政怎麼樣來運作所以我認為這個是一個憲政的而且作為要負起總的政治責任的其實行政院因為人民最後救者的是行政院行政院同意而支持而做的這個是行政院要負起責任所以我認為"},{"start":133.306,"end":157.666,"text":"每個政黨都有機會成為執政黨,都有機會成為國會的多數黨,但是應該把這個行政和立法的權責確立清楚,我任何國家才能長治久安,院長同意這樣的看法嗎?完全沒錯,如果履行剛剛的程序,兩院之間互相尊重,絕對沒有問題。同時,大法官4次391號,他寫得非常清楚,無論是審議、審查、審議或是法律案,"},{"start":159.525,"end":176.745,"text":"涉及施政計畫內容的變動或調整,就算你預算項目移動或追加,非常重要,亦導致政策成敗無所歸屬,責任政治難以確立,有違行政權、立法權分立。"},{"start":178.472,"end":203.699,"text":"應該各本所施之制衡原理,因為憲法所不許。 憲法391非常,四字391非常清楚寫到這一頁。所以這個其實非常清楚,現在院長所堅持的也不是只有你而已,其實堅持的是一套制度啦,不然這個東西,惡例一旦延續下去,每次都可以這樣做的話,那大概整個責任政治會混亂掉,同時間整個行政立法的體系會整個混亂掉。此離開皆總而來。 是。"},{"start":205.52,"end":205.92,"text":"因為在10月11日韓院長跟我的"},{"start":230.816,"end":259.619,"text":"跟草原黨團的參與當中副院長也在場其實那天談的內容大家還好但出來之後就說破局破冷水其實那天我跟韓院長心中非常清楚協商即將開始所以隔週馬上有協商開始所以我在10月18號才寫了剛剛的那個文章但是就是大家對於所謂依法這兩個字各有解讀不同所以前天我才用了這個更簡單的引語其實這個重點只有第三點"},{"start":260.64,"end":266.878,"text":"就是我們建議只要同意以後不會如此要求 只此一次下不為例"},{"start":268.112,"end":293.195,"text":"這次我們可以加點費用來解決這個問題所以等於是也加一個T字讓大家有個台階下來有個緩和的方式下來做那就這一次僵局已經造成了我們就解這一次就好了但是未來的部分還是要回歸到整個憲政跟這一次用一個特例的方式去處理它這一次還要還是要回頭來補行預算法93條的規定徵詢行政的意見那我們會做必要的"},{"start":293.815,"end":294.876,"text":"法律規定來"},{"start":309.986,"end":313.87,"text":"我認為其實不管是行政院特別是立法院都是要來解決問題啦如果你只是要否決掉而已喔這個你提出的方法我都不同意那你釋憲我也不同意那你所謂什麼所有的人這個"},{"start":334.628,"end":337.65,"text":"現在只要行政院提出這樣的方法,嘗試解決,那我還沒有看到朝野協商之間有沒有一個好的方法來討論。"},{"start":353.393,"end":370.032,"text":"但這是一種方法啦,另外裡面我看到了,院長裡面有提到啦,就所謂的仲裁,其實就是你講的,其實就是我們講的釋憲啦。釋憲也是另外一種方式嘛,就是你釋憲交由憲法法,你就要大法官來做最後的一個確定,那怎樣的,那最後的大法官的確定出來,該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嘛。"},{"start":371.434,"end":393.472,"text":"大法官認為是立法院違憲立法院就退回這樣的方式如果大法官會作出行政院違憲的話那當然行政院也就接受這也是一種方式但是無論如何都不應該用這樣的方式卡住整個總預算應該讓總預算持續因為這個牽扯到現在不到差不多兩個多月的時間新的年度就開始了"},{"start":393.912,"end":417.752,"text":"所有的縣市政府所有的重大的建設新興的建設都在等待這樣的預算我認為朝野政黨都不應該再持續拖下去我認為只要馬上開始立法院的效率還是可以完成的還是可以在時間內完成這樣我們對人民的托付就會有所交代行政院就能夠在下個年度好好的推動現在整道施政報告當中所跟大院所報告的內容"},{"start":418.132,"end":444.313,"text":"所以院長如果照你的的話就是以這一次的方式剛剛你提到這樣的方式來做處理嘛齁在追認後面的程序這樣處理那這個如果不可行的話那大概釋憲就是你的下一步可能的路我非常不願意真的我非常不願意不是個好的辦法不斷地必須提出釋憲不斷地提出釋憲不是個好的方法但是當行政立法陷入僵局陷入到對憲法的一個紛爭的時候那看來憲法法庭可能是最後適合的仲裁者沒錯"},{"start":445.034,"end":446.015,"text":"沒有一個執政團隊希望能夠用政治上的不穩定"},{"start":473.431,"end":497.305,"text":"來造成人民的困擾所以倒閣是憲法上面的規定但是是非常非常萬萬不得已的手段所以我昨天看到有些在野黨不斷的嗆聲這些的我認為這個都是很不恰當的就是說你用這樣的方式無意以解決問題嘛憲政有憲政僵局的政治解決方案但是那不是最佳的方案我說總有一種方法可以行得通那我們要找哪一種方法"},{"start":497.805,"end":498.145,"text":"沒錯,我們也會很愧對來自"},{"start":521.667,"end":536.719,"text":"在看我們在這裡對話的所有的國人。好,先講接下來的事情,我要回到那個,其實有一個是大林埔前村,我要先談一下,這個在2016年的時候,林全院長代表這個政府跟那時候陳局長去做道歉,然後啟動,到現在18年經過6個院長,"},{"start":539,"end":550.267,"text":"二、10月19日上午10時為國是論壇時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月19日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":559.392,"end":559.832,"text":"請院長來協助加快"},{"start":579.875,"end":588.406,"text":"好的,我覺得當時代總統院長在擔任院長的任內,我們也對這個事情有所接觸跟了解,那後來經過幾年之後,環評,第一階段環評,環評已經決定了,那之後,"},{"start":595.354,"end":619.771,"text":"現在開始我想我們可以有更多的機會時間來看看是不是照這個時程進行或是當中還有什麼問題我們積極來處理從一開始的道歉到現在已經8年了代表政府道歉8年那從核定第一本的已經5年了所以我覺得時間相當長了那希望加快包括登記的程序鄉親們都在等希望早點做出選擇那早點的去思考整個未來我也希望這一塊這個"},{"start":622.032,"end":631.186,"text":"院長能不能指派未來有個政委來指派來盯住這樣的業務因為它涉及到除了經濟部會有其他一些相關部會的跨局處業務我也希望將來有政委能夠協助好嗎"},{"start":632.5,"end":634.18,"text":"高雄這幾年其實也謝謝在政府的大力支持下不管南梓、橋頭、仁武、北高雄的產業園區"},{"start":658.41,"end":686.878,"text":"到比較南高雄的從臨海工業區前陣科技產業園區包括到亞洲新灣區甚至在機場都有很多的投入很多建設這要非常感謝行政院跟交通部的支持那我要回到一個點其實這些重大建設高鐵也是其一個重壓於環那我上禮拜看到柯志恩委員再次的去模糊掉這個焦點我們要再次強調從2007年就在評估當時最早評估的是從左營到高雄對有機會到屏東去"},{"start":687.958,"end":698.519,"text":"大臺北就三個站的板橋這個臺北到南港非常好的一個效果但是當時的時候在2010年10月17號毛志國當任交通部長的時候他核定就是說"},{"start":699.008,"end":700.809,"text":"我只知道現在高雄車站是一個非常大"},{"start":728.545,"end":749.694,"text":"所以在歷史很清楚嘛歷史都留下了很清楚的記錄當時如果交通部長支持的話其實這個案子就會進到高雄車站但是他已經想得很清楚到高雄車站甚至屏東不具可行性當你這樣一講下去的時候這個案子等於就是死掉"},{"start":750.074,"end":750.134,"text":"院長是這樣嗎?"},{"start":772.988,"end":787.537,"text":"現在最有可能的方案就是進到高雄車站的方案目前我們兩個案子啦那目前大家收攏大家的意見聽起來高雄方案很像大家認為比較可行那我的想法是如果已經確定因為既然講到從左移方案是"},{"start":788.317,"end":800.043,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":809.747,"end":811.028,"text":"目前我們還在收集,像前幾天都多了一票。"},{"start":838.84,"end":855.196,"text":"再來我請教一下除了高鐵之外機場也很重要特別是高雄機場也謝謝整個新的航廈計畫但現在這個新航廈第一期的預定要到2032年我認為太久我希望縮短到2030請加快相關的期程我們來努力加速好不好"},{"start":855.476,"end":883.308,"text":"另外當然航班航點的部分還是要請這個持續來增加我們這幾年看到義後在桃園在臺北的松山的部分都恢復的相當的快但是高雄作為南台灣最重要的一個國際機場甚至於新南向的一個基地我們認為這個優勢沒有被發揮出來包括甚至在新南向的航班的部分增加速度也都不如預期我們也希望院長部長持續來要求來增加這樣的一個"},{"start":884.689,"end":898.91,"text":"這個航班航點跟整個騎乘好不好?這個我們來努力。再要請教一下,因為華航有新購了一些客機,那我知道這些新購客機,原先多數規劃是要放在北部的,桃園的,但我認為,我也請部長能夠回去要求了好不好?"},{"start":899.27,"end":899.45,"text":"謝謝賴委員謝謝卓院長"},{"start":928.912,"end":929.637,"text":"下一位請陳亭飛委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":33,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時3分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長，辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：首先，我還是要談，我認為總預算其實是憲政的問題，是權力分立也是責任政治的問題，行政跟立法應該本於自己的憲政權責施政，我認為這才是國家之福。現在我們憲法跟預算法的規定其實都非常地清楚。院長，後面這樣的僵局怎麼解決？你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員讓我再度有機會說出我心裡，從一開始到今天為止始終如一的一個想法。我只有一種想法，就誠如我在上一次臉書文章所說的，其實行政院只有一個立場，只有一個堅持，就是以後編列預算一定要按照憲法第七十條的精神、預算法第九十三條的規定，如果立法委員在審查預算的時候，有增加歲出、減少歲入一定要徵詢行政院的意見，同時要指出彌補資金的來源，必要的時候還要進行必要的修法。如果能夠踐行這樣的程序，兩院之間互相尊重毫無問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長提出了一個很關鍵性的問題，就是過去以來有的話通常也都是行政院其實是認可也支持的，所以才能夠進行，但是行政院有所疑慮，要負這個政治責任的其實最後是行政院。在國家資源有限下，一定要做一些適度的調配跟整理，如果現在26億可以不經行政院的同意就強行要求的話，接下來260億或可能更多的經費，國家的財政怎麼樣來運作？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：而且最後要負起總的政治責任的其實是行政院，因為人民最後究責的是行政院，行政院同意並支持而做的，這個是行政院要負起責任。所以我認為每個政黨都有機會成為執政黨，都有機會成為國會的多數黨，但是應該把行政與立法的權責確立清楚，國家才能長治久安，院長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：完全沒錯，如果履行剛剛的程序，兩院之間互相尊重，絕對沒有問題，同時大法官釋字391號寫得非常清楚，無論是審查預算或是審議法律案，涉及施政計畫內容的變動或調整，就算預算項目移動或追加，非常重要，易導致政策成敗無所歸屬，責任政治難以確立，有違行政權與立法權分立，各本所司之制衡原理，應為憲法所不許。憲法釋字391非常清楚寫到這一點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個其實非常清楚，現在院長所堅持的也不是只有你而已，其實堅持的是一套制度。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不然，這個惡例一旦延續下去，每次都可以這樣做的話，大概整個責任政治會混亂掉，同時間整個行政立法的體系也會混亂掉……"],["卓院長榮泰：此例一開，接踵而來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是。我看到了院長其實也是做了一些退步與讓步，我看你在臉書上面說，希望有一個好的開始，雙方各讓一步，我看裡面有一個關鍵性，就是只此一次下不為例，然後設法增加點費用來解開僵局，院長有一個怎麼樣特殊的方式來解開？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在10月11日韓院長和我們朝野黨團的餐敘當中，副院長也在場，其實那天談的內容大家還好，但出來之後就說，破局、潑冷水。其實那一天我和韓院長心中非常清楚，協商即將開始，所以隔週協商馬上開始，所以我在10月18日才寫了剛剛那個文章，但是就是大家對於所謂「依法」這兩個字各自解讀不同，所以前天我才用這個更簡單的隱喻，其實這個重點只有第三點，就是我們建議只要同意以後不會如此要求，只此一次下不為例，這次我們可以加點費用來解決這個問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以等於也加一個梯子，讓大家有個臺階下……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有一個緩和的方式下來之後，就這一次僵局已經造成了，我們就解這一次就好了……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是這一次……"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是未來的部分還是要回歸到整個憲政……"],["卓院長榮泰：對、對、對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這一次用一個特例的方式去處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：這一次還是要回頭來補行預算法第九十三條的規定，徵詢行政院的意見，我們會做必要的表示，以後才好處理，未來還是要這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這一次的解方有可能就是這個提出來之後，再徵詢行政院的意見，行政院就予以同意，這一次解掉這一題，未來就不再採用這樣的方式。"],["卓院長榮泰：未來就要照法律規定來，照這個規定來，我們都尊重。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想這也是卓院長釋出的善意，我們也希望這個僵局能夠在這樣的善意下來獲得解決，但是昨天看……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我說我們來解決問題，不要造成誤解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為其實不管是行政院，特別是立法院，都是要來解決問題，如果你只是要否決掉而已，我提出的方法你都不同意，我釋憲，你也不同意，所有倒閣這些的你都有意見，那你的方法是什麼？立法院也要提出自己的方法出來……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是滿遺憾的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果都不提出方法出來的話，人民就會覺得是不是刻意在讓整個國家陷入混亂當中。"],["卓院長榮泰：這次只有行政院提出這樣的方法嘗試解決，我還沒有看到朝野協商之間有沒有一個好的方法來解決。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然這是一種方法。另外，我看到院長在裡面有提到，就所謂的仲裁，你講的其實就我們講的釋憲，釋憲也是另外一種方式，就是你提起釋憲，交由憲法法庭大法官來做最後的確定，最後大法官的確定出來，該怎麼辦就怎麼辦。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果大法官認為是立法院違憲，立法院就撤回這樣的方案，如果大法官會議做出行政院違憲的確定，當然行政院也就接受……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就遵守。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這也是一種方式，但是無論如何，都不應該用這樣的方式卡住整個總預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：應該讓總預算持續，因為現在差不多再兩個多月的時間，新的年度就開始了，所有的縣市政府、所有的重大建設、新興建設，都在等待這樣的預算，我認為朝野政黨都不應該再持續拖下去了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為只要馬上開始，以立法院的效率，還是可以完成的，還是可以在時間內完成，這樣我們對人民的託付就會有所交代，行政院就能夠在下個年度好好的推動現在整套施政報告當中跟大院所報告的內容。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長，如果照你的話，就是這一次以剛剛你提到這樣的方式來做處理，以再追認後面的程序這樣處理，這個如果不可行的話，大概釋憲就是你下一步可能的作法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我非常不願意，真的，我非常不願意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不是個好的方法，不斷地提出釋憲不是個好的方法，但是當行政、立法陷入僵局，陷入到對憲法的紛爭的時候，那看來憲法法庭可能是最後適合的仲裁者。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，行政、立法兩院都是憲政機關，憲政機關依照憲法所賦予的任何救濟程序，我覺得都應該被遵守。"],["賴委員瑞隆：倒閣、解散國會幾乎是最後、最不得已的僵局下的一個程序，大家都不期望走上那樣一條路啦！所以我們還是希望這樣的方式能夠得到在野黨的支持，儘快解除這樣的僵局。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有一個執政團隊希望用政治上的不穩定來造成人民的困擾，所以倒閣是憲法上面的規定，但是是非常萬不得已的手段……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我昨天看到有些在野黨不斷地嗆聲等等，我認為這些都是很不恰當的，你用這樣的方式無益於解決問題嘛！憲政有憲政僵局的政治解決方案，但它不是最佳的方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說總有一種方法可以行得通，我們要找是哪一種方法，大家要找那種方法，而不是找其中最不可能的方法互相來指責，那就不對了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：全臺灣人民都在看，我們也希望各政黨大家能夠拿出智慧，用最好的高度來解決，如果持續讓僵局下去，只是讓臺灣國會、臺灣的政治陷入混亂，我相信全民都在看，大家都不會接受的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，我們也會很愧對看我們在這裡對話的所有的國人。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝院長。接下來我要回到交通的議題，我要先談一下大林蒲遷村，在2016年的時候林全院長代表政府跟陳菊市長去道歉，然後啟動，到現在為止經過8年，經過6個院長，2019年10月蘇貞昌院長核定整個計畫，至今5年了，這是民進黨的一個重大政策，我希望院長能夠加速期程，希望環評儘速確定。這個都讓我印象深刻，國道7號當年在國民黨執政時代進入二階環評之後拖了14年，我們的第七貨櫃中心已經啟用了，結果國道7號到現在還沒有動工，我希望這些歷史的經驗都能加快，國家的重大建設如果要做，環評的部分應該儘快定案，可不可以儘快定案，讓整個政策能夠儘快來推動？請院長能不能來協助加快？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，當時賴總統在擔任院長的任內，我們也對這個事情有所接觸跟了解，後來經過幾年之後，環評第一階段已經決定了，現在開始我想我們可以有更多的機會、時間來看看是不是照這個時程進行，或是當中還有什麼問題，我們積極來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：從一開始代表政府道歉到現在已經8年，從核定第一本已經5年了，我覺得時間相當長，也希望加快，包括登記的程序，鄉親們都在等，希望早點做出選擇，早點去思考整個未來，我也希望這一塊院長未來能不能指派政委來盯住這樣的業務？因為它除了涉及到經濟部外，有其他一些相關部會的跨局處業務，我也希望將來有政委能夠協助，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，而且它現在有新的計畫，就是新材料的循環產業，我們朝這個方向來看看地方跟中央之間還有沒有什麼問題需要進行溝通跟調解，再請委員幫忙。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請院長協助盯住這樣重大政策的進度好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，其實交通建設很多對於地方是相當重要的發展，高雄這幾年也在政府的大力支持下，不管楠梓、橋頭、仁武、北高雄的產業園區，到比較南高雄的臨海工業區、前鎮科技產業園區，包括到亞洲新灣區，甚至在機場都有很多的投入、很多建設，這要非常感謝行政院跟交通部的支持。","我要回到一個點，這些重大建設中，高鐵也是重要的一環，我上禮拜看到柯志恩委員再次的去模糊掉這個焦點，我們要再次強調，從2007年就在評估，當時最早評估的是從左營到高雄，有機會到屏東去。大臺北就3個站了，板橋、臺北到南港，有非常好的效果，但是當時在2010年10月17號毛治國擔任交通部長的時候，他核定「現階段擬將路線繼續向南延伸至高雄火車站、甚至屏東，並不具可行性」，當時這樣的一句話，導致到現在為止十幾年來變成慢了，大臺北都已經完成了3站，而在整個高雄是慢下來的。我要問的是，院長，如果是你的話，你會做這樣的決策嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我只知道現在高雄車站是一個非常大的車站，而且現在就是為了高鐵可能延伸過去在做事先的準備，如果是這樣的話，這句話當時為什麼要存在，而且高雄車站……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個歷史很清楚，歷史都留下了很清楚的紀錄，當時如果交通部長支持的話，其實這個案子就會進到高雄車站，但是他已經講得很清楚，到高雄車站，甚至屏東不具可行性。當你這樣一講下去的時候，這個案子等於就是死掉了，所以導致現在我們要重新再思考怎麼進到屏東的時候，變成要花掉非常多的時間，慢了14年的時間，我要講的是慢了。現在我們知道的是，從左營的這個方案日本廠商認為是不可行，所以現在看來最有可能的方案是進到高雄車站再到屏東去，院長，是這樣嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要克服施工上的問題，這個請部長再答復。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以現在最有可能的方案就是進到高雄車站的方案？"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們有兩個案子，目前收攏大家的意見，聽起來大家認為高雄方案好像比較可行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的想法是，如果已經確定，因為既然講到左營方案是不可行的，日本廠商認為有一些相關的風險，如果不可行的話，我希望要進高雄車站就要儘快，不要再拖了，同時間不要再……當年14年前的時代……"],["陳部長世凱：我們在年底之前會來宣布。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望這個部分要加快速度……"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再收攏地方的意見。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我希望加快速度，當年因為這樣而慢了14年，導致現在包括高雄車站周邊站體的發展都很需要，我們希望這塊儘快來加速完成，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長可以嗎？儘快來支持這樣的方案，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長跟我的想法就是，年底之前蒐集地方的意見做一個整合，然後告訴地方我們想要做什麼樣的決定，請地方來共同支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：應該高雄方案的機會是最大嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我們還在蒐集，像前幾天就多了一票。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我請教一下，除了高鐵之外，機場也很重要，特別是高雄機場也謝謝整個新的航廈計畫，但現在這個新航廈第一期預定要到2032年，我認為太久了，我希望縮短到2030年，請加快相關的期程。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力加速。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，當然航班、航點的部分，還是要請持續來增加，我們這幾年看到疫後在桃園、在臺北松山的部分都恢復得相當快，但是高雄作為南臺灣最重要的一個國際機場，甚至於新南向的一個基地，我們認為這個優勢沒有被發揮出來，甚至在新南向航班的部分，其增加速度也都不如預期，我們也希望院長、部長持續來要求，來增加這個航班、航點跟整個期程，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。再來，我請教一下，因為華航有新購了一些客機，我知道這些新購客機原先多數規劃是要放在北部的桃園，但我也請部長能夠回去要求，這一定要有一定比例是放在高雄，不然現在高雄的客機相對是小而且相對老舊，這個對於營運相對上都是更辛苦的，我希望相對的一定比例應該要放在高雄，好不好？這部分請院長、部長能夠大力來支持，讓高雄的飛機、讓高雄的國際機場有更好的發展，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝賴委員指教。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}