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,{"start":1845.609,"end":1868.825,"text":"那還有各位媒體記者們大家好我們今天的協商的主題是針對我們本院委員傅昆齊等16人還有許宇甄委員等20人分別擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案那我們召集這個來黨團的一個協商我們先介紹我們今天列席的官員"},{"start":1872.869,"end":1875.611,"text":"內政部部長劉世芳中選會陳朝健副主委其他請參考列席名單"},{"start":1902.108,"end":1921.743,"text":"好我們沈伯陽委員也到場還有張雅玲張雅玲的張啊工廠張抱歉工廠張張雅玲委員好來好那我們就進入今天的這個協商"},{"start":1926.001,"end":1955.785,"text":"那我們本次協商的主題我剛才提過就是傅崐萁委員等16人以及許宇甄委員等20人分別擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案那麼經第一會期第二十二次會議決定進覆二讀並按交付黨團協商這次本法案的內容那我想我們就先請國民黨的這個提案的代表許宇甄委員做提案的說明好不好"},{"start":1956.677,"end":1957.118,"text":"先進行說明。"},{"start":1965.681,"end":1993.299,"text":"主席還有各位列席的各位官員還有各位委員大家好我想這一次針對這個選罷法的這個修正案主要是因為在這個選罷法的這個過程中我們發覺很多的這個連署有一些亂象包括一些錯假連署、超明測連署或者是死亡連署這些都有這個我們發覺很多這樣的問題甚至很多都是筆跡相同可是礙於現在的選罷法"},{"start":1994.019,"end":1994.299,"text":"委員許甄等20人擬具"},{"start":2011.44,"end":2012.5,"text":"罷免法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2031.786,"end":2036.83,"text":"公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案第12條規定公投聯署要提供身份證的正反面引本讓我們的這個理由是為了要防止虛偽聯署的情勢那也避免破壞公民投票的一個公正性"},{"start":2058.828,"end":2083.266,"text":"希望大家都能關注有關的相關問題以上,謝謝我想我們提案的委員講完之後我們先請行政部門做事實的一個答覆然後再請各黨表示意見我想今天又有委員到場王國威委員我們還有今天列席的還有我們"},{"start":2085.472,"end":2103.925,"text":"法務部參事廖江憲、司法院民事廳劉素如、劉法官針對法條修正,請內政部劉司芳部長表達看法。還是要等各黨?"},{"start":2112.389,"end":2134.673,"text":"委員先講好了再請行政部門來做意見的表示請吳思瑤幹事長謝謝今天召開主持協商的林思明委員我想今天來召開這個協商其實就是回歸了應當有的程序的正義我們赫然發現選罷法上個會期"},{"start":2137.834,"end":2166.994,"text":"原始的一個提案是許宇甄委員的提案那個時候有涉及門檻的提高那後來兩次在委員會的審查都沒有辦法實質審查上個會期的7月份發生了這個委員這個會議是臨時換的一些我認為在台灣國會的這個史上都創下非常糟的惡例所以以至於那一次的選罷法應當是在委員會審查但是委員會沒有辦法審查"},{"start":2169.916,"end":2186.81,"text":"徐委員的案子撤了,現在是新的案子,現在是由副官席委員的案子跟徐委員是新版的提案,然後在院會是用近乎二讀的方式,也就是近乎二讀,那就內政委員會就沒有審查,直接到黨團協商的這一個程序。"},{"start":2189.412,"end":2217.008,"text":"那上一周在協商總預算的時候我們赫然發現居然韓國瑜院長召集的院長level的朝野協商在協商總預算的那個協商居然上個禮拜就排了應當經由黨團協商的選罷法所以在那一次上周韓國瑜院長主持的朝野協商其實民進黨團包括我本人就提出了這樣子的質疑"},{"start":2218.072,"end":2241.423,"text":"那今天算是導回正確的程序回到由提案的政黨國民黨黨團來召集黨團協商今天的程序算是回復了起碼該有的正常的程序但是呢我也發現了一個問題也想問一下主席選罷法這麼重要憲法所賦予憲法17條賦予人民選舉罷免創制覆決的權利這麼慎重"},{"start":2247.346,"end":2248.948,"text":"主席,您在協商的這個議程上是說預計一小時是一小時就要結束嗎?我們希望能夠你的協商"},{"start":2265.864,"end":2267.466,"text":"到五點半就是一小時"},{"start":2287.104,"end":2311.152,"text":"這是第一件事尊重我的發言尊重我的發言所以我們希望主席讓我們充分發言因為這麼重要進夫二讀委員會已經沒有討論這是憲法第17條規範的人民的基本權利當然要好好討論當然我們是希望他應當沒有進夫二讀而是在委員會層級好好討論那第二件事情我也覺得"},{"start":2313.117,"end":2336.768,"text":"很有疑惑那為什麼今天的黨團協商還沒有進行還沒有召開我們剛剛居然又收到韓國瑜院長發出來的明天下午三點鐘的朝野協商已經把第二案第一案是總預算要持續的來討論第二案就是選罷法"},{"start":2337.888,"end":2353.017,"text":"所以我們非常質疑,難道韓院長認為林思明委員、國民黨團、召集的黨團協商不會有好的結論嗎?就預先又跳過了程序,預先排了明天就要討論選罷法"},{"start":2355.934,"end":2369.462,"text":"是韓國瑜院長不信任林思明今天會議主席的協調能力嗎?還是說國民黨的朋友們就預設了今天的討論就是一個過水呢?"},{"start":2370.854,"end":2396.259,"text":"只排一小時然後這麼重要既負二讀又關人民基本權利委員會已經沒有時間沒有機會討論了今天來預設一個小時就要結束這場協商甚至韓國瑜院長預設了今天的協商不會有結論明天草野協商再討論然後下一關是什麼就是禮拜五院會就可以表決了"},{"start":2397.779,"end":2421.124,"text":"是這樣嗎?我想問一下這個程序啊,主席。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答"},{"start":2424.525,"end":2451.524,"text":"那我想我的協商我就會充分尊重各位委員你的發言但是我希望大家不要再去講題外話就針對今天的重點這五個條文大家發表你的看法因為這樣講下去我講很實在話這樣一直講下去意見都會重複我想我們現在協商就大家希望形成有一致的意見我們就達成協商沒有辦法達成協商當然我們就意見不一致主席我想繼續謝謝您的說明謝謝來"},{"start":2453.786,"end":2474.991,"text":"今天是第一次這個屆期討論選罷法朝野的委員可以坐下來討論這是第一次我們當然希望他是在委員會 內政委員會但是禁服二讀就到今天所以我希望主席能夠理解會議才剛開始我是第一個發言的委員不要說大家又講重複的話不要扯太多"},{"start":2476.321,"end":2502.527,"text":"來吧,我們才剛坐下來所以說我以歷次選罷法的幾次修正的審查情形跟各位報告2015年修選罷法將政黨補助的門檻由5%下修至3.5%那個時候內政委員會的召集委員是陳其邁委員他在委員會審查三次"},{"start":2503.973,"end":2530.109,"text":"委員會沒有共識後續交付朝野協商協商的次數是兩次這是同樣的選罷法2016年選罷法也修了就是關鍵的那一次是不是要下修罷免的門檻也就是當時是時代力量委員的黃國昌他要求他提案完全罷免不需要有門檻那一次"},{"start":2531.482,"end":2553.202,"text":"那一次也是陳其邁召委他委員會討論五次協商兩次同樣是選罷法在2023年針對公職候選人的排黑條款排案的主審委員是陳玉珍委員委員會討論的次數是七次"},{"start":2554.871,"end":2580.271,"text":"協商的次數是兩次我想以選罷法這樣一個重大攸關人民選舉罷免的重大神聖權利行使的議案選罷法立次的修正都有委員會充分討論討論三次討論五次討論七次也有充分在朝野協商各協商兩次所以我希望說"},{"start":2582.028,"end":2605.251,"text":"我真的很衷心希望剛剛斯敏委員其實我對斯敏委員非常的尊重那您所說的不是只是過水你會在你主持的這個會議上好好的履行讓大家討論的這個前提那如果今天讓大家能夠好好的討論我援引過去選辦法修正花了這麼多次的討論的時間我非常期待"},{"start":2606.112,"end":2625.412,"text":"不要預設了一個立場那可能思明委員您應該要做的一件事情是也許您應當打個電話給韓國瑜院長跟他說相信林思明你會好好如您所說的好好的在黨團協商的歷程過程當中讓委員充分表達意見"},{"start":2626.853,"end":2654.104,"text":"韓國瑜院長不需要急著來預設立場會認為今天的協商可能會開花沒結果或者他只是設定這是一個過水也許主席該做的事是跟韓國瑜院長報告無論如何會讓選罷法在國民黨團主持的黨團協商的這個層級讓大家充分討論否則外界也非常疑惑韓院長明天就預先排了"},{"start":2655.086,"end":2666.391,"text":"朝野協商要處理選罷法那下一關就是一關一關的朝院會的處理我不希望發生這樣的事情這攸關人民選舉罷免珍貴權利的"},{"start":2670.98,"end":2697.188,"text":"職權行使不應當是快轉不應當是過水不應當是強度關山所以我先起了這個程序上立次修選罷法在委員會層級充分討論在協商的次數也充分討論的過去修法的經驗我先就程序面請求也呼籲國民黨的朋友們提案的委員們"},{"start":2698.348,"end":2723.937,"text":"不要為快而快不要為修而修不要為了增加罷免連署的難度而來沒收人民的權利這是程序上的發言我先報告到這裡那稍後實質法案的內容我也有很多準備要討論的內容再請主席給我時間謝謝謝謝吳世耀委員那我們再補充介紹我們今天到場的委員"},{"start":2725.838,"end":2736.794,"text":"林倩琦委員、翁曉琳委員、蘇巧慧委員、李柏毅委員、洪森翰委員、張宏祿委員"},{"start":2739.084,"end":2739.425,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":2760.819,"end":2760.939,"text":"韓國瑜院長"},{"start":2786.298,"end":2813.491,"text":"排明天同樣四點半然後也一樣排三點半三點那一樣是要延伸這個選罷法那我們會覺得很奇怪的就是說有這麼急嗎因為我們知道說如果今天的協商不管最後的結論是怎樣但是如果協商沒有成就換院長排那院長在我們今天協商都還沒有結論他就先排了明天的協商"},{"start":2814.315,"end":2834.956,"text":"那我們可以預測那就是禮拜五就是要表決了那就是今天明天禮拜五那有這麼急嗎?這個涉及到了人民選舉罷免創制覆決這個最重要的公民參與政治的一個權利這東西多討論多用多一點時間讓大家討論又會怎樣嗎?"},{"start":2836.86,"end":2846.35,"text":"那何必急著好今天這個協商今天黨團全商明天院長協商禮拜五表決然後就說結束了三讀通過了"},{"start":2848.002,"end":2872.641,"text":"現在以後的罷免制度門檻就大幅提高以後光是要呈案都非常的困難讓罷免的權利大概從此以後看到罷免就很困難了那我們就要回到這件事的本源就是說有必要這麼擔心現行的選罷法對於罷免制度的門檻嗎?如果這個門檻是不合理的"},{"start":2873.802,"end":2898.141,"text":"不合理到了說你請柴要走人走人出來要去打罷免的人都會罷免那在基隆市長這一次的罷免我想那就罷免就會過啦後來罷免也是沒有成立嘛那可以證明說現在這一個制度所定的這個罷免的門檻你看有些人會被罷免成功但大部分是罷免失敗"},{"start":2899.558,"end":2922.375,"text":"大部分是失敗所以他的門檻是高的沒有那麼簡單可以去在現行的制度之下所以我們現在要討論選罷法然後把罷免人盤大幅增加而且這個增加勒是讓未來連成案都產生困難因為你知道你要去連署罷免然後你要繳交身分證的影本給這個罷免團體"},{"start":2925.336,"end":2951.298,"text":"那你身份證原本要給人以現在大家對於各自的保護我們要把身份證交給人這個是何其嚴重的事情所以我們認為說在罷免的時候這個沒有必要把他的門檻拉到了說你連讓他成案難度會高到了這樣的一個程度我們還是覺得說大家在程序上三思我們多一點討論"},{"start":2952.833,"end":2960.217,"text":"今天協商不成主席你可以再排一次協商啊你可以下禮拜再排協商啊那何必這樣啪啪啪哇連三天連三關那你們國民黨藍白的用意這樣看起來就很清楚了啊你們就是要禮拜五要用人數的優勢強行表決通過"},{"start":2971.391,"end":2995.519,"text":"對阿看起來你們目的都這樣嘛你就直接講嘛那我覺得我們如果今天協商主席可以說我們今天協商不成我下禮拜還要排那我會去跟韓院長說阿他明天先不要排這件事我林思敏有信心我可以好好的溝通我今天排完我下禮拜再排讓真的對關心選罷法的人都可以來這裡讓他暢所欲言讓他講話"},{"start":2997.339,"end":3013.909,"text":"這還是民主的真諦嘛尤其我們現在要行使的這個修法是涉及到人民最基本選舉罷免的最基本的權利我們要去更動這樣的權利的時候是不是在討論上再多一點程序的討論"},{"start":3015.844,"end":3040.275,"text":"主席你現在讓我們說,我們大家都覺得我們要表達我們的意見,而且我們每一個人,然後我要跟主席講,你不能說,主席你不能講說誰在重複發言,因為縱使是同樣一句話,不一樣的人說他就代表著不同的民意基礎,我們每一個人縱使是區議會跟部分區議會,部分區議會也是有他的選票,他是政黨票,"},{"start":3041.115,"end":3047.113,"text":"都有他的民意基礎你不可以去說誰講了誰又講重複了所以後面的人就不能講"},{"start":3048.171,"end":3049.492,"text":"委員許甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。」．"},{"start":3071.305,"end":3071.505,"text":"我還沒第二輪啦我第二輪會講"},{"start":3088.633,"end":3108.27,"text":"我第二輪會講別的東西那我現在對於我對於今天的協商我提出的尊重啦我在尊重我在跟主席共同啊各位真的我希望這樣子大家不要把同樣的事情你今天第一輪講這樣第二輪又講這樣第三輪又講這樣這樣對我們實質的討論沒有幫助"},{"start":3116.226,"end":3134.532,"text":"主席在跟我講重複發言的問題我現在要講的重點是因為你剛才問我我回答你我是用你第二輪發言不要重複我講的重點不是說不要說誰是重複發言每個人都有代表每個人的意思我第二輪我會離開我會講"},{"start":3136.833,"end":3136.973,"text":"衛生局局長"},{"start":3167.034,"end":3172.259,"text":"謝謝主席,因為其實剛剛有特別提到說為什麼我們這個案子會進負二讀,我來喚醒一下大家的記憶我們其實在內政委員會我們有排審兩次,一次在這裡,那當時民進黨的委員們佔領主席台,讓我們沒有辦法審查"},{"start":3185.593,"end":3190.758,"text":"第二次呢高金昭委又排案了一次那也是一樣半夜就有人闖進這個我們的這個內政委員會來導致我們也沒辦法排案審查經過兩次大家可以知道非常激烈的抗爭所以為什麼當時會進負二讀主要是這樣的原因並不是我們不排不排案審查這第一點第二點呢剛剛我想那個我們的蔡宜瑜我們的這個"},{"start":3212.656,"end":3220.158,"text":"蔡宇書記長特別有提到說針對我這次的提案就是希望能夠附上身份證的影本大家認為這個部分的話這個各自的問題非常的嚴重可是我這邊有一個是蔡宇委員跟吳秉瑞委員的提案針對公職人員選罷法的修正條文就是要附上身份證影本的提案"},{"start":3238.763,"end":3264.377,"text":"那表示說當時蔡委員竟然都覺得要附上身份證影本的提案是正確的沒有喔,你的是這個不然是發證實習或身份證影本的話就是認為說這個因為你發明影本的話你也比較去對嘛然後另外就是我們看到就是在上個會期沒有還有在上個會期第十屆的時候蘇巧會委員跟吳王蕾會委員他們也針對"},{"start":3265.257,"end":3275.062,"text":"關於那個不用附影板我先講完 等一下 各位 我要採視一下 我要採視一下那我剛剛講 我也沒差你的話 那我講完你可以再說明的話"},{"start":3281.145,"end":3300.747,"text":"當委員在發言的時候大家盡量不要吵好不好另外就是在第十屆的時候蘇喬惠委員跟王美惠委員他們有提出一個公投法的修正條文的修正草案那吳思瑤委員也是連署人喔裡面就是有提到要填具基本資料貼附本人國民"},{"start":3301.668,"end":3308.991,"text":"身份證的影本這在第十屆的提案這表示說我們其實很多民進黨委員也都認同應該要附上身份證影本所以我覺得這個只是一個資格那你說要怎麼樣我覺得每個連署人或是提議人他本來就有那個責任要去這個保護每個人的個資也就是他收到身份的影本他要善盡保護的責任否則現在的總統的這個選舉辦法就不用就是也是要附上身份證影本"},{"start":3328.178,"end":3343.073,"text":"所以我想這個部分應該是這個社長身份領本我覺得只是對於我們聯署加強它的嚴謹性跟公平性以上好 謝謝許宇甄委員我以舉手先後各位委員舉手我都會把你登記下來的那現在請王洪文委員再請張文武委員準備"},{"start":3346.836,"end":3366.933,"text":"謝謝主席主席很辛苦今天我們選罷法的一個協商大家也可以看到今天民進黨也有很大陣仗來做關心跟發言但是我覺得有一些謬誤的地方我們必須要去做一個澄清"},{"start":3369.181,"end":3373.824,"text":"剛才吳思瑤幹事長一直強調說那為什麼不能夠討論呢應該好好在內政委員會討論可是我想大家都記得我想大家記憶力不是那麼淺我們的腦袋應該不是鯨魚腦在上個會期當時高金素沒擔任召委曾經有兩次的排審"},{"start":3396.398,"end":3409.804,"text":"第一次排審還排到是吳秉瑞就是委員也就是蔡議員也當共提的就共同提案人在那一次大家應該也非常清楚當時可以討論嗎當時可以討論嗎因為民進黨的委員全部都佔據在主席台上啊"},{"start":3422.486,"end":3426.188,"text":"記不記得後來我們沒有辦法我們只好呢把這個這個會議室改到這個群賢樓那個時候呢不是啦那第二次我要一次又一次的喚醒你們的記憶嗎有啊你忘記了齁你忘記了齁你們佔據這個我待會會講到你們佔據主席台可能佔領非常習慣齁"},{"start":3452.759,"end":3472.896,"text":"在第一次是7月4號7月4號排審然後沒有辦法所以呢當時的召委只好來換這個會議室可是那個時候占據著內政委員會會議室的民進黨的同仁們幾乎是軟禁軟禁我們的相關的議事人員讓他們無法離開"},{"start":3482.942,"end":3486.104,"text":"這就是要討論的民進黨黨團用這樣的討論方式用軟禁議事人員的方式讓他不能夠開會達成不能開會的目的所以我覺得我現在在這邊啊聽到我對面的吳思瑤委員在那邊誇誇其談我們需要討論啊充分討論啊"},{"start":3511.311,"end":3518.216,"text":"我覺得可能我們今天要感謝的是還好今天民進黨團在這個協商會沒有站在主席台讓這個協商根本開不成所以7月4號是這樣7月8號那個我想這個吳斯堯委員他只記得那一場我們換了這個議場當天我們的黃捷委員展現了他的特異功能"},{"start":3541.607,"end":3557.541,"text":"是不是我不曉得在凌晨的時候在整個還沒有開議還沒有開門的時候就直接把門打開了這個事情我覺得韓國瑜院長應該是非常的寬厚啊對不對破壞公務至此啊"},{"start":3561.727,"end":3574.692,"text":"所以請問一下那當時如果民進黨團想要討論的話為什麼不能遵循我們原來大家每天我們不是都在開會討論嗎我是不是內政委員會大概也應該是八點以前嘛大家來登記發言嘛來做討論來做陳述嘛"},{"start":3584.619,"end":3585.439,"text":"但是能嗎?請問一下民進黨給討論嗎?民進黨團給討論嗎?所以你今天在這邊指責國民黨團說幹嘛急什麼?經負二讀為什麼不給討論?不敢討論嗎?"},{"start":3605.829,"end":3629.462,"text":"問題是民進黨黨團不給討論所以我必須要講就是今天大家記憶也不是那麼淺大家如果在講說如果立法院本來就是講道理的地方大家是論述的地方所以以今天來說說是韓國瑜院長對我們林斯民書記長沒有信心嗎我想應該是大家對民進黨團沒有信心"},{"start":3635.711,"end":3642.518,"text":"連內政委員會好好的排案你們都不願意討論到霸佔主席台請問一下我們還如何的能夠好好的說道理呢"},{"start":3648.769,"end":3665.546,"text":"另外剛才蔡易瑜書記長一直在講說你們現在就這樣設定今天過水明天就是院長來做草野協商星期五就要表決好厲害我也是黨團幹部"},{"start":3672.605,"end":3695.672,"text":"我們在黨團內部我們都沒有討論到的事情哇你都知道我要講的是星期五的設定應該是民進黨團的設定吧應該是民進黨團的設定因為早早青鳥就在星期五的時候已經已經在我們立法院附近已經搶下路權了不是嗎所以這搶下路權應該是在上個禮拜啦"},{"start":3701.195,"end":3703.897,"text":"所以這個設定的日期到底是誰設定的呢是青鳥設定的嗎還是民進黨團設定的嗎所以你們控制青鳥還是青鳥控制你們我不知道因為你們就是要青鳥飛進議場忘記了嗎忘記了嗎上個會期不是就在那邊青鳥要飛嗎飛進那個立法院嗎好 所以我要講的是"},{"start":3729.69,"end":3729.871,"text":"要討論要協商"},{"start":3733.448,"end":3741.052,"text":"國民黨團一直尊重相關的程序包括剛才吳詩瑤委員講說那麼在星期一的時候覺得應該還是要在我們這個內政委員會由國民黨團來做協商我們也從善如流我講的是我們絕對釋出絕對的善意我們不會因為因人肺炎"},{"start":3762.318,"end":3774.643,"text":"所以那為什麼今天就有這樣的協商呢所以我們也是從善如流但是我們真的要回頭想一想到底誰不願意協商啊另外不願意討論的是你們不是嗎好然後呢我要特別講的就是說"},{"start":3784.912,"end":3787.753,"text":"待會可能我相信可能民進黨團的同仁會談到哎呀這怎麼樣的是那個違背這個違背這個打壓人民的這個公民的權利就是罷免的權利創制復決等等的權利那我們要講的是在我們一些相關的連署裡面"},{"start":3810.868,"end":3825.398,"text":"有身份證影本的 包含總統的連署 總統選舉的連署也是需要身份證影本 所以這不是獨一無二的"},{"start":3826.498,"end":3834.024,"text":"這不是獨一無二的那另外啊我們現在希望能夠能夠把它確認說在這個整個的罷免的過程裡面有一些過去我們所發現的一些疏漏或者我們發現有一些其實呢它其實已經反而傷害了這樣的一個罷免的權利所以我們把它稍作補強"},{"start":3855.521,"end":3859.426,"text":"沒有提高門檻只是讓這些罷免連署能夠確保這個是不會有假冒的情勢過去越確實啊我們很多有時候連署會出現死人連署的狀況這個大家也講得非常多了"},{"start":3873.624,"end":3879.108,"text":"那然後剛才我們徐宇甄委員特別提到因為之前吳秉瑞委員跟蔡易瑜委員也有共同提案選罷法的修正選罷法的修正然後我會給你你待會還可以講話嘛對不對你待會還可以講話"},{"start":3900.543,"end":3926.445,"text":"有嗎?我哪一句事實不符?我講了你的法案了嗎?我講了你的法案嗎?你在緊張什麼?撤議委員不要緊張!有?我講錯什麼啊?我還沒...我還沒有...我還沒念啊?你怎麼那麼緊張啊?我沒有!"},{"start":3928.649,"end":3940.848,"text":"根本沒有欸你們真的是睜著眼說瞎話我只講到我只講到吳秉瑞委員、蔡育瑜委員共同提案的法案啊那講錯什麼"},{"start":3946.209,"end":3972.061,"text":"我沒有講我還沒講啊我沒有講錯啊好好好你去掉不要不要插我的話不要插我的話你不要插我的話然後呢我現在呢就來念一下我們吳秉瑞委員蔡毅委員等21人所提案的案有好來看哈"},{"start":3974.923,"end":3995.602,"text":"堅於近幾次罷免案出現大量死亡提議連署書顯見現行提議連署制度漏洞嚴重讓有心人士藉大量的個人資料假冒提議連署已經違反個人的資料保護"},{"start":3997.011,"end":4013.985,"text":"且罷免案乃選民對於公職人員信賴與否之抉擇若以假冒眾人意志左右提議連署,不可不為以足以深損害於公眾或他人"},{"start":4015.446,"end":4040.659,"text":"為了避免假冒情勢的發生原擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案以完善罷免制度規定所以我要講的是我們現在覺得我們現在的整個罷免的流程有一些流弊有一些疏失甚至呢"},{"start":4042.07,"end":4046.974,"text":"我們吳秉瑞委員、蔡育委員都認為這樣的聯署制度是漏洞嚴重所以之前吳秉瑞委員有提案只是後來你們撤案了但是這不代表這些的問題已經被解決了"},{"start":4061.437,"end":4087.565,"text":"所以民進黨撤案那麼國民黨基於一個負責任的態度提出我們的版本一樣的出發點也是能夠去防堵這些相關的漏洞也是一樣的去把這些可能產生的一些流弊能夠把它加以解決"},{"start":4089.258,"end":4092.04,"text":"所以請問一下你不能說是這個民進黨提案好棒棒就是什麼要減少流幣等等國民黨提案就是危害到公民的罷免權"},{"start":4108.629,"end":4132.836,"text":"不要這樣好不好永遠都是綠能你不能這樣子的標準是不應該的不要綠能你不能好再來即使內容不相同不是完全相同我講了所以呢所以啊"},{"start":4135.151,"end":4144.621,"text":"那所以啊 你讓我講話啊啊你剛才 你剛才說說我 說我亂講 說我講錯講錯我講錯什麼 我到現在為止 講錯什麼我到現在講錯什麼到現在到底在講錯什麼呢"},{"start":4159.878,"end":4173.927,"text":"各位委員讓我們尊重委員的發言好不好尊重委員的發言我還在講啊我還沒講完你在緊張什麼我還沒講完嘛對不對我還沒講完你要緊張什麼嘛好那麼我們可以看到我現在就要講了嘛對不對"},{"start":4190.657,"end":4193.341,"text":"不要緊張 對不對我幹嘛緊張 我現在就要唸啊"},{"start":4203.592,"end":4217.419,"text":"不要著急以吳秉瑞和蔡易瑜委員共同提案的版本那麼在我們這個國民身份證的統一編號還有發證日期還有什麼戶籍"},{"start":4222.381,"end":4222.682,"text":"委員許宇甄等20人擬具"},{"start":4233.099,"end":4242.583,"text":"彌補上發證日期而國民黨的版本在座精進在座精進除了發證日期之外也參考了總統跟副總統選罷法裏面有關於總統副總統連署在連署的過程裏面也有要求身份證引本"},{"start":4261.07,"end":4262.632,"text":"我們認為選舉總統跟副總統非常重要他也不應該什麼出現去抄名冊去抄工會的名冊甚至有一些死人連署的狀況"},{"start":4276.926,"end":4300.185,"text":"同樣的在罷免也是一樣的那麼我們也尊重公民的罷免權但是我們也體會到如同吳秉瑞跟這個蔡育宇委員所提到的相關的這些流弊我們提出來提出來是身份證影本還有發證日期"},{"start":4303.442,"end":4311.608,"text":"好 所以我要講的是 其實大家都有注意到 在過去幾次罷免裡面出現的問題當然啦 這個民進黨團講說 你們急什麼 你們怕什麼 你們是不是因為怕罷免 blah blah blah"},{"start":4323.817,"end":4344.472,"text":"那我要跟大家報告的是我們剛才我忘記是蔡易瑜委員還是吳思瑤委員提到比如說像這個之前結束不久的這個謝國良的罷免案那麼謝國良罷免案事實上呢謝國良算是不但過關而且算是過關的蠻漂亮的所以其實我們"},{"start":4351.013,"end":4376.879,"text":"所以啦就我在講啊所以我們沒有在怕罷免的嘛趕快拍手趕快拍手趕快拍手沒有我們是基於整體的今天如果按照謝國良經驗我們幹嘛怕罷免啊對啊我們沒有怕罷免因為"},{"start":4378.59,"end":4387.615,"text":"只要正面對決所以我要講的是這就是國民黨團不會以一黨之私"},{"start":4397.108,"end":4420.314,"text":"不會黨議、凌駕民意。然後你想想看,我真的是不解啊。其實我覺得,欸,蔡玉瑜,副書記長,啊我真的覺得你這個案子也不錯了餒。對嘛,我們法案很多,大家都有不同版本,大家來討論。啊請問,好待會你講啦。"},{"start":4426.257,"end":4427.058,"text":"好你待會講我剛才都沒有講錯對不對"},{"start":4431.92,"end":4453.818,"text":"然後呢 這麼好的版本 欸 參議員 這版本好不好你說你說 你說你共同提案的版本好不好你提案的版本好不好你提案 不是不是 你這個提案的版本好不好啊你一般般 你講得這麼好 講得這麼好 你幹嘛"},{"start":4460.322,"end":4483.877,"text":"我沒辦法支持啊!你們撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案了啦!對不對?你撤案了啦!我們都你提啊!"},{"start":4486.4,"end":4502.629,"text":"我跟你講啊,我們把你們,把它當作垃圾的東西,你們是,你們因為齁,啊,國民黨團,我告訴你啦,所以蔡議員"},{"start":4505.239,"end":4532.742,"text":"我是你喔 我是你我就哭哭啦阿我自己覺得 我很努力去提的版本阿結果 為了你們要去佔領主席台那天我們就是要討論你的版本欸欸 7月4號 7月4號欸 就是要提 你看一看一看我又在 我又在recall你們的記憶好不好"},{"start":4534.003,"end":4542.027,"text":"怎麼會記憶這麼淺呢?對不對?記憶這麼淺對不對?7月4號7月4號來7月4號就是要討論吳秉瑞的版本你看陳奕宇"},{"start":4564.434,"end":4576.482,"text":"你把你的版本你把你的提案當垃圾對對他很清楚啊他很清楚啊"},{"start":4583.48,"end":4601.032,"text":"沒錯!你講了!撤案喔!沒錯!你講你撤案啊!你幹嘛撤案?你告訴我你幹嘛撤案?對不對?因為...因為你們要佔領主席台嘛!因為你們...把7月4號來...來7...我很多給你!欸!"},{"start":4609.862,"end":4629.025,"text":"我一定要留給你講啦但是我一定要還原啦不然大家都忘記了我很害怕的大家忘記了講來講去好像是我們不讓你們那個什麼主席、民進黨委員的發言你為什麼不支持了洪輝你都只打斷民進黨的發言你只打斷蔡奕宇"},{"start":4638.567,"end":4655.414,"text":"主持人不公啊下一個是誰講我們請麥一貞委員發言下一個是各位我們就是一定要黨派穿插不可能每一個人當然就張宏錄麥一貞講一下再換張宏錄"},{"start":4660.963,"end":4670.966,"text":"各位我們協商各個黨的意見我們都要聽齁所以我們現在請民眾黨為他第一次發言所以我們請民眾黨做第一輪的發言好不好好我們請麥立正來"},{"start":4683.804,"end":4684.165,"text":"我沒有那麼會講"},{"start":4713.764,"end":4716.745,"text":"特別就是連署罷免的程序存在很多的漏洞不管是民進黨或者國民黨都有提出所以每一個人都知道說這個不完整所以包含就是死人連署或者抄莊獎名單等等等"},{"start":4732.99,"end":4734.291,"text":"所以就是有這個亂象所以呢我們的嚴重就是影響到選罷法的制度還有公信力和有無私聯署的真實表達的意義所以在選罷法罷免的制度設計應該是就是太處機制而不是政黨的服務"},{"start":4754.506,"end":4760.73,"text":"所以為了維護選罷法我們民眾黨是沒有提出版本但是我們是有幾個就是我們是堅持的為了維護選罷法的公平與正當性唯有就是透過具體的規範和嚴謹的程序還能避免就是連署的假象還有就是罷免的制度"},{"start":4777.759,"end":4780.741,"text":"更透明。所以我們台灣民眾黨秉持理性物質科學的理念對於選罷法的修正討論我們不贊成盲目的提高"},{"start":4794.151,"end":4794.751,"text":"尊重尊重請尊重"},{"start":4822.179,"end":4834.924,"text":"好,如果相關大家都被罷免,因為大家都委員嘛,所以聽我講嘛,好嗎?因為大家都有機會罷免,不是只有國民黨還是誰,大家都會有機會,因為每一個人...對啊這一些都是助理來協助,不是博異不相干,但是他也是我的助理,我也可以來主任嘛"},{"start":4852.898,"end":4881.213,"text":"因為,不是,對,聽我講啦,好嗎?不相干,我還沒有講完,我還沒有講完,你們就打斷了,對不對?不相干內政委員會的委員,平常我們開會就是我們內政的委員,很和樂大家來討論,對不對?但是那天我進來,我自己也嚇到,怎麼那麼多不同的委員會都在這裡,所以我們就,我以為是大家在辦什麼活動,是不是公聽會?"},{"start":4883.414,"end":4898.718,"text":"我才知道你們來這邊開派對所以我後面才知道我沒有參與到所以因為我不敢進來大家說你不要進來等一下被他們打的話沒有人保護你我說我不知道是怎麼回事所以我就不進來我只有簽名就是說等開會但是後來就沒有開會所以我們希望就是因為這樣子的"},{"start":4906.44,"end":4934.798,"text":"我們不贊成盲目的提高罷免門檻我們都是從頭到尾都是要這樣子的表態因為對公民權利還有過度的機制民眾黨主張應該比照就是副總統、總統選舉的聯署程序要求就是身分證還有以保聯署的真實性這就是"},{"start":4936.338,"end":4942.441,"text":"預防死人連署的亂象也確保罷免程序的正當性因為每一個人都是委員都是一票一票選出來的對不對我們有選舉的時候就是身分證都要去看清楚所以說對當選的人"},{"start":4958.59,"end":4960.07,"text":"二、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．"},{"start":4978.835,"end":4986.403,"text":"主價值我們希望說呼應大家不管任何人因為大家都是選民選出來的我們要理性的討論關於這個選辦法要達成共識怎麼樣比較好因為不是說這邊國民黨"},{"start":4997.875,"end":5002.616,"text":"民進黨也可能也被罷免對不對未來我們民眾黨很多的立委如果是用票選上來的不是政黨票的也有可能對不對所以我們希望說達成每一個人選舉公平罷免也要公平這樣子的話才不會說好不容易花很多的精神選上了但是呢就是要罷免"},{"start":5027.362,"end":5032.524,"text":"正見不足隨便簽這樣子的話對大家都不公平所以我們希望就是要因為這樣子要怎麼樣提出就是更健全的展示就是我們的應有的效率台灣的選舉還有更加進步所以我們希望是這樣所以今天我們就是表達我們的立場"},{"start":5050.572,"end":5053.934,"text":"選辦法我們不會去就是要去改但是門檻我們希望真的是要嚴謹對大家最公平最有保障的這個就是我們的發言謝謝大家謝謝麥議生委員充分表達民眾黨的立場"},{"start":5084.928,"end":5107.283,"text":"我覺得修這個選罷法其實跟我們立法委員本身這個利益是有相關聯的我們當一個立法委員利益迴避應該是最基本的你在修這個法跟我們每個立法委員都息息相關的情況之下我個人認為其實是應該要充分的討論"},{"start":5108.544,"end":5118.275,"text":"那剛剛聽了大家都這樣講好像大家也都認為可以在委員會討論啊那我覺得我們應該就是委員會可以充分的討論啊那而且我覺得如果如果齁"},{"start":5122.631,"end":5149.413,"text":"要講要修這個法那公投法也有連署的問題我覺得我們可以一併討論一併來處理對不對我覺得這個才是比較負責任的立法院所以我覺得兩個理由第一個這個跟每個立法委員本身都有相關這是有利益迴避的問題你如果沒有充分的討論我覺得很難對社會大眾交代這是第一個第二個我認為要討論"},{"start":5150.874,"end":5177.372,"text":"你連公投法你也應該要一起討論啊對不對那我記得在上上屆的時候在修公投法的時候國民黨也是極力的反對啊那我覺得這樣的情況之下我們大家一起要好好的坐下來把公投法一起拿來檢視把選罷法一起拿來檢視好好的討論你這樣子才不會立法院你修一個選罷法你把公投法要放在那邊那在台灣"},{"start":5178.813,"end":5195.783,"text":"你變成有要連署的有好幾種啊 對不對剛剛大家講的總統的有一種那你變成選罷法好像又跟總統比較相似然後呢你公投法又要綁在那邊我覺得這不是一個有水準的立法"},{"start":5196.764,"end":5197.725,"text":"委員許甄等20人擬具"},{"start":5212.802,"end":5239.749,"text":"跟這個選舉相關的法律我們拿下來大家好好來討論啦主席我的具體建議是這樣子啦這樣子我們立法院做這樣子的跟自己有利益相關的我覺得比較能夠說服大眾好不好主席好我們謝謝張伍毅委員的發言接下來我們請那個李柏毅委員他現在離開了好那我們就請洪森漢委員"},{"start":5241.305,"end":5244.306,"text":"我現在手上拿著一份國民黨的文宣"},{"start":5271.877,"end":5272.658,"text":"國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019"},{"start":5285.176,"end":5313.865,"text":"內容寫說民進黨提案公投連署需附身份證影本這是侵害隱私提高連署難度所以下面寫說全民互公投民進黨殺公投國民黨的文宣裡面清楚的寫明需要附身份證正反影本這是在殺公投的事情當年呢藍偉強力杯葛公投法2019年的時候"},{"start":5314.881,"end":5335.115,"text":"甚至拿三秒交封鎖門鎖因為強力阻擋公投法所以後來我跟大家說當時確實行政院的版本一開始是有附身份證影本的後來民進黨團也聽從了當年很多公民團體的建議還有在野黨也做這樣子的提議"},{"start":5336.55,"end":5352.144,"text":"所以就將要負身份證影本的規定給拿掉了所以最後在2019年6月修正的公投法的版本裡面就是不用負身份證正反影本的"},{"start":5352.845,"end":5372.508,"text":"因為那個時候不管是公民社會公民團體或在野黨包括國民黨包括當時的時代力量我相信那時候也包括當時的黃國昌委員黃國昌委員當時也是立法院在2019年的時候都說要附身份證正反影本這是會傷害人民的個資"},{"start":5376.266,"end":5387.107,"text":"提高連署的難度這都是國民黨的文宣的內容我很少拿國民黨的文宣啦我這輩子難得拿國民黨的文宣我一個字一個字的念"},{"start":5388.766,"end":5417.617,"text":"我一個字一個字的念這就是國民黨文宣的內容當年後來這個修法基本上各黨派是有共識確實覺得身份證影本是有這樣子傷害各自的疑慮傷害各自的疑慮所以大家一起把它給拿掉了民進黨團我們也同意了當時的行政院也同意了所以沒有什麼好拿之前的版本在那邊揮啦當時大家就一起做成了這個共識"},{"start":5419.107,"end":5446.01,"text":"一起做成這個共識結果呢現在國民黨又拿著身份證、正反影本要來魚目混珠民進黨團就算有提版本也只是要求身份證的發證日期那不用把整份的身份證的影像全部交出去啊不用交出去啊你只要在家裡把那個發證日期給填上去就好在上面不會有其他的個資不會有整張身份證、正反影本的個資啊"},{"start":5448.454,"end":5473.115,"text":"現在國民黨要做的事情很簡單他就是要讓民眾不敢連署啦現在大家很重視個資的問題對不對很重視被詐騙的問題對不對國民黨咬準了民眾的這個心理知道說如果要連署你要把身份證正版一本交出去民眾就算我很想要罷免那個政治人物我也不敢交出去"},{"start":5474.673,"end":5501.304,"text":"在連署這關把整個罷免給封殺掉還不用去調到時候同意票的門檻在幹前端就把你的罷免給封殺掉這是國民黨現在要做的事情大家看這段文宣主席我不知道那時候你有沒有一起看這段文宣有沒有發到你臉書上我不知道這個是朱立倫主席在上面的許宇甄委員看一下朱立倫主席上面還有簽名當年大家用這個說法"},{"start":5506.706,"end":5529.184,"text":"你們快來證實到說是不是啊那我現在講很簡單啦其實大家標準一致啦大家標準一致啦當年後來民進黨團跟民進黨的行政院我們也從善如流認為這樣做確實有疑慮所以我們把它拿掉了我們認為這個事情已經在各黨之間達成了共識"},{"start":5530.851,"end":5550.554,"text":"已經不是一個議題了但沒想到在經過了五年之後國民黨又怕大罷免潮啦我要說怕大罷免潮應該是檢討自己不要又去激怒人民啦不要再讓人民這麼憤怒啦結果現在國民黨跟民眾黨幹的事情是什麼"},{"start":5552.113,"end":5552.133,"text":"最簡單："},{"start":5568.53,"end":5592.485,"text":"然後現在要與睦混珠說這個身份證的發證日期跟身份證領本就是完全不一樣的事情剛剛王洪威委員也承認這就是不一樣的事情裡面的個資的密度跟強度完全不一樣的事情但又要與睦混珠拜託不要搞這一套你們在閹割人民的權利就是你們自己文宣上面講的嘛侵害隱私嘛"},{"start":5593.701,"end":5604.028,"text":"這四個字大家不會看不懂嘛為什麼當年是侵害隱私五年後現在要復申的那份反應本就不是侵害隱私為什麼給個理由啊當年民進黨當年民進黨也後來也從善如流認為這有各自疑慮這有各自風險所以我們後來就拿掉了嘛"},{"start":5621.058,"end":5648.518,"text":"2019年6月最後的投票的結果大家可以看一下嘛那現在在黨說這個總統副總統的選舉罷免法對不起那個是1995年的法律啦那是1995年修的法律那是法律但是這麼簡單我們最近在討論身份證正法英本的問題是在2019年啦為什麼你那時候不用總統副總統罷免法"},{"start":5650.287,"end":5656.865,"text":"我才講8分鐘欸!不是啊!你...他一直要我給個說法!"},{"start":5659.471,"end":5663.474,"text":"為什麼當年修公投法的時候行政院的版本有拘附身份證正反應本的時候國民黨不用說"},{"start":5685.673,"end":5710.588,"text":"總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面也有啊為什麼當年不用這個理由因為現在要被罷免的是國民黨的委員嘛就這麼簡單嘛有什麼好遮掩的有什麼好遮掩的我們只要求一件事情啦未來罷免為什麼要打斷為什麼要打斷我們只希望很簡單"},{"start":5712.273,"end":5724.3,"text":"接下來罷免可能有藍有綠啦可能也有白啦但我只要求一件事情啦不要閹割人民的權利啦不要侵犯人民的隱私啦就這麼簡單啦為什麼連這麼簡單國民黨都做不到為什麼國民黨現在還要強推強行表決一個會侵犯人民隱私甚至引起未來包括詐騙的問題各自的問題後面就是詐騙的問題"},{"start":5740.009,"end":5742.25,"text":"這樣子一個法案,為什麼國民黨要強推?毫無道理嘛!就是政治考慮嘛!不要再講什麼民主了啦!閹割人民權利的政黨,兩個政黨,政黨聯合起來,還講什麼民主?就這麼簡單嘛!就這一張文宣就講完了嘛!這誰做的?是民黨做的嗎?這國民黨做的啦!拜託國民黨,不要跟人民對幹啦!"},{"start":5768.661,"end":5769.482,"text":"現在國民黨幹的事情是把矛頭對準人民的權利啦!"},{"start":5769.482,"end":5769.582,"text":"閹割人民的權利啦!"},{"start":5780.629,"end":5809.448,"text":"拜託 我就講到這邊對不起 我的時間不到然後會有那個二分之一那是哪位委員的助理那個哪一個什麼助理那是我的助理對 我想大家直播可以掉袋子就好他拍我喔盡量不要站在那邊啦好不好他拍我喔對 那個算 我們維持秩序啊就你掉袋到時候掉你的直播袋就好了沒問題好不好來對 我想助理盡量不要進到我們議場這邊來我們跑在後面就好了齁朱熹好 以上 朱熹謝謝我們把這道理講在這個地方要講道理大家來講"},{"start":5812.15,"end":5819.812,"text":"要講道理大家來講但請國民黨不要硬幹不要跟人民為敵不要厭惡人民的權利謝謝"},{"start":5843.054,"end":5848.917,"text":"OK,好,輪我說話了吧"},{"start":5861.161,"end":5876.041,"text":"大家已經發表完意見了我要謝謝洪勝翰委員剛剛有提到2019年的時候行政院跟民進黨當時也提出了類似的修法那我必須說你們真是有先見之明知道說之後的我們這個選舉環境"},{"start":5877.483,"end":5877.523,"text":"選舉罷免法"},{"start":5892.748,"end":5897.691,"text":"法律本來就是會與時俱進,要隨著時空環境的轉變,要來這個管動勢的修正檢討。那麼如果說當時2019年行政院和民進黨黨團所提出來的法案,你們認為他是具有正當性的,這個畢竟我們這個任何一個"},{"start":5914.841,"end":5914.901,"text":"這是國民黨!"},{"start":5937.157,"end":5958.607,"text":"每個黨都有你們的更厲害更嚴重如果說你們不擔心的話為什麼你們要反對現在的修法沒有這個道理如果說你們這個認為其實我們都是在捍衛人民的罷免權那麼我們必須要所有的連署書出去它都必須要是真實的那為什麼要擔心"},{"start":5962.568,"end":5970.41,"text":"這個附上國民身份證的正反映印本還有填上發證日期會有什麼侵害隱私現在的詐騙絕對不會是因為寫了聯署書寫了罷免聯署書然後所以至於造成詐騙的這個猖狂這個會有詐騙的問題都是你們民進黨政府執法不力抓不到詐騙集團還好意思在那裡講"},{"start":5986.574,"end":5998.801,"text":"我們現在是寫個什麼聯署書然後填一些資料就有可能會洩露個資會造成詐騙如果是這樣的話那總統這個副總統選罷法為什麼你們不提出來修正咧就來修啊對啊我要講就是今天所提出來的公職人員選罷法的修正規定事實上我們是要保護的是整個的罷免案它具有正當性"},{"start":6016.247,"end":6032.977,"text":"從一開始的提議到聯署每一關每一個環節它都是符合真實性的我們不容許有任何的造假的聯署書那麼更何況這個填上聯署表格之後不是還要經過驗證嗎"},{"start":6036.696,"end":6059.77,"text":"否則怎麼會知道說到底寫上去的身份證字號是真是假?出生年月日是不是正確?戶籍地址是不是正確?所以附上國民身份證的正反映一本不是正好可以讓相關的機關辨於作證、佐證同時也可以讓聯署的單位他也募集聯署的單位他更好可以去辨別哪一個是真假"},{"start":6061.603,"end":6070.591,"text":"這個是有意義的修法不是沒有意義的修法民進黨常常都是拙勢驚飛以前你們所提出來的法案"},{"start":6073.114,"end":6078.938,"text":"你們就是著是驚飛以前你們的提案就可以現在我們的提案就不行我為什麼要笑我覺得很合理啊因為時空環境改變我們不知道民進黨政府執政之後整個的選舉罷免環境就越來越糟糕啊越來越多的弊端出現啊然後這個中選會也不查啊也不查清楚啊都是個案的這個選擇判斷啊"},{"start":6100.555,"end":6126.69,"text":"所以當然也是要修法,修得清清楚楚啊保護各自難道不是聯署這個單位的責任嗎?他今天去募集到這個要聯署人的身份證、銀本當然要保護好啊如果說是大家有疑慮不敢去寫那就代表說也質疑這個聯署單位本身是有問題所以就整個的法的邏輯法理來講是絕對站得住腳的"},{"start":6127.671,"end":6129.034,"text":"所以我就說我很謝謝剛剛紅委員你提出了2019年你當時民進黨行政院也是支持這樣的版本為什麼拿掉"},{"start":6138.775,"end":6153.9,"text":"是因為你們不敢堅持這個正當性的法理嘛就這麼簡單啊你們還是考慮到你們自己的問題啊如果說你們認為是正確的為什麼當時不堅持勒所以就是這是很有趣的為什麼你當時不堅持勒"},{"start":6159.039,"end":6185.107,"text":"沒有水準的委員太多了啦然後呢我們今天是就事論事今天既然是草野賢商我們就好好的來把這個條文這個看看哪個地方有問題我們來修嘛那如果談不出個結果來那我們就進入到下一個階段嗎?欸!來了!是啊!不是嗎?我就是維尼大!要來了!不是嗎?不是就進入到下面一個階段嗎?要來了!"},{"start":6188.374,"end":6206.049,"text":"各位委員,現在我在宣告一件事,麥義森委員現在已經離席,就是有民主黨的代表他已經離席了,所以現在實際上我們是現在協商明顯不會達成共識,但是沒關係我跟你講,現在我們還是繼續討論,現在大家討論還是繼續討論,我們討論的就是各黨的意見的表達。"},{"start":6213.575,"end":6217.677,"text":"主席會議請問,所以因為那個拜一尊委員民眾黨他不在現場﹖所以我們今天﹖哪裏規定不在場都不能決定協商﹖在哪裏的議事規則規定有不同政黨的人離開現場都不能再協商﹖"},{"start":6241.351,"end":6262.947,"text":"這就是國會跨城法案一模模一樣啊!黃國昌走人!我再詢問一下!不是!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!"},{"start":6269.815,"end":6287.842,"text":"對!我在詢問他為什麼要插話!我在詢問主席!是你跟他在插話好不好!你為什麼要插話?我在詢問!我在詢問不可以嗎?現在我們的討論是各位黨他意見的表達喔!各位意見的表達!各位你們充分表達意見!我沒有意見喔!"},{"start":6300.012,"end":6327.964,"text":"OK我再出聲音我剛才大家聽清楚沒有因為有民眾黨的委員因為我們在協商一定要三個黨都在啦我想你有這個事啦你不要再跟我爭了所以我說不會討論出協商的結果沒有人簽字嘛所以我現在是告訴各位我繼續讓各位發言我們現在的發言就是各位你們自己的就是各位委員你們意見的表達"},{"start":6328.684,"end":6329.784,"text":"我充分尊重"},{"start":6341.735,"end":6364.847,"text":"沒關係 我們待會再跟他確認現在請那個沈柏洋委員發言主席 我覺得大家的互相尊重拜託主席跟民眾黨的代表說一下什麼感覺大家都很重要希望聽到這個告解你跟他拜託一下好不好因為大家的互相尊重沈柏洋委員發言"},{"start":6377.256,"end":6397.932,"text":"主席我可以會議詢問一下嗎?主席我會議詢問一下沒有沒有因為您剛剛的裁示我有點不理解您的裁示是說不管我們講到我們還有很多意見要表達但是您剛剛說因為民眾黨的代表已經離席了所以你預判說今天協商沒有結論你已經預設了這個前提"},{"start":6402.987,"end":6410.697,"text":"所以現在您的意思是說民眾黨民眾黨跟你們民眾黨是預謀好他走了就讓今天沒有沒有結論對你是說民眾黨預謀好了民眾黨預謀好了結果他離開今天就沒有結論是這樣嗎"},{"start":6421.584,"end":6444.449,"text":"黨團協商就是這樣,我們沒有辦法達成結論啊!那我們再排協商可以嗎?我們再排協商可以嗎?我們再排協商可以嗎?我現在只能排今天這一場,明天我們再,那好啦,就這樣我們就宣告了主席玩弄程序啊,怎麼會在討一討啊,主席敢再討一討啊!對,你不要再討來一件啊!還要再討來一件啊!"},{"start":6447.471,"end":6447.751,"text":"請審委員表達意見"},{"start":6463.084,"end":6480.191,"text":"民眾黨先離開了,但是我們還是有可能國民黨跟民進黨可能也會達成一些共識,這也是很重要的事情。那如果今天只是在程序上,程序上因為他不在,但我們如果兩黨能夠達成共識的話,這也是一個很重要的事情。"},{"start":6480.871,"end":6508.701,"text":"那或許我們能夠延續下去的話那明天韓院長的那一個可能要建議院長先不要那麼急著開阿因為我們這表示我們有延續性嘛阿可能那個麥委員回來之後呢可能他過幾天他知道我們兩邊的結論之後還可以繼續協商啦我的建議是這個樣子所以明天韓院長可能就不需要再去剛剛其實有蠻多共識的啦第一個共識應該就是我感覺王委員跟汪委員應該都蠻想加入民進黨的一直在看我們的法案啦齁對不對這個我覺得他很支持以前我們的一些想法啦齁對不對"},{"start":6511.278,"end":6537.478,"text":"但是我必須要講幾個點就是說第一個就是當然是很感謝主席就是讓我們有這一個協商的這一個機會但我還是必須要講就是我們有幾件事情好像一開始前提可能沒有弄好第一個就是我們在這一次的提案裡面最主要我們有爭議的地方是在講這一個提高罷免門檻這件事情但是其實這個顯然剛剛在討論的時候並不是從這個角度出發"},{"start":6540.62,"end":6565.307,"text":"大部分都是在講說有死人連署有這個作假什麼等等那其實這個有一個因果關係很重要的一個問題就是大家可以看到就以往有那麼多的這些造假的連署這一個呢大部分不是大部分都是國民黨發動的那比例很高但我覺得重點是什麼重點是他被發現了比如說發動罷免陳志忠有46%不合格發動罷免高明玲這個有49%不合格"},{"start":6569.548,"end":6595.624,"text":"那這個數據在這邊的意思是什麼就是我們發現它不合格嘛如果我們發現得了它不合格的話那為什麼用這個當作理由說我們現在要把罷免的這些程序做改變除非我們是覺得說他們發現得太慢了他們發現的這個程序這個通常要好幾天我們現在想要縮短這些公務人員的作業時間所以我們要修改一些規定這樣聽起來才合理嘛"},{"start":6596.204,"end":6609.819,"text":"那很多人就說我們要弄這個影本是可能是為了要怕說他們有偽造啊就是冒名啊但我們刑法本來就有偽造文書罪啊所以就算我們今天完全不動選罷法其實跟這件事情沒有關係"},{"start":6611.537,"end":6632.444,"text":"這件事情從頭到尾都是可以被發現的跟你要不要附發證要不要附影本沒有什麼關係啊他的因果根本就不存在嘛那不存在的話那為什麼要這個理由來修法所以就回到下一個層次就是當你今天要附身份證影本的時候既然這一個不是理由那你真正的理由是什麼就是讓罷免變難嘛"},{"start":6634.665,"end":6657.691,"text":"讓罷免變難這件事情我們可以來看一下因為剛剛麥委員有提到民眾黨的立場因為今天大家都一直在講歷史所以還是講一下我們可以從國民黨為什麼還沒有反攻大陸講起但是我們可以看到這一個13年的黃國昌委員就有說有一批立委或許預知到他接下來會做很可怕的事情所以他在立法院提案讓罷免程序變得複雜"},{"start":6659.372,"end":6674.088,"text":"每個提議員跟臨署人要求把身份證影本交出來你會擔心,擔心的效果是什麼所以呢這個很明顯我們可以看到在2013年的黃國昌委員現在可能在家裡的地下室就是"},{"start":6676.94,"end":6677.08,"text":"委員許宇甄"},{"start":6695.365,"end":6711.858,"text":"本來在法律上就可以直接規範在程序上也可以被發現所以最重要的是當你把這個東西加進去不管你今天是從發證日起還是你從身份證引本你就是實質在讓門檻增加你就是實質讓罷免變得不容易"},{"start":6712.478,"end":6730.11,"text":"那罷免作為一個政治性的權利這是一個動態的過程我們台灣人民已經熟悉了民主其實也慢慢在熟悉罷免這件事情如果你貿然的把一些不合理的要件加上去這個第一個會造成政治權利上的一個傷害第二個就像剛剛這個馮委員提到的"},{"start":6732.071,"end":6760.392,"text":"以前詐欺還沒那麼猖獗現在詐欺很猖獗這一些東西呢他拿出來之後呢很有可能會被詐欺拿去利用嘛更不要講說如果這邊大家對於這一個所謂的這一個個資外洩可能有研究的話其實齁照理說發證日期是一個妥協的方案你利用發證日期來做審核這件事情聽起來是合理的但是通常來講如果你今天要取得一個人的個資假設我今天有他的那一個條碼"},{"start":6761.593,"end":6783.329,"text":"通常我還在需要一個步驟就可以拿到比較多資訊那一個資訊其實就是發證跟換照日期所以其實發證跟換照日期在資安上面比大家想像的重要非常非常多而這個也不是以前這是這兩三年才會變得那麼重要這是應該跟我們內部這個資安的這個機制有關係所以我這個就不多說所以我還是覺得說我們今天既然"},{"start":6784.15,"end":6813.032,"text":"想要協商想要聚焦我們應該就要實質的去面對這件事情就是其實這一個法案他就是想要把罷免的門檻提高的法案他的目的就是這個樣子他其實非常的明確因為其他的理由根本就不支持這樣的說法嘛那既然是這個樣子的話我們就是要討論我們要不要限制人民的罷免權如果你不要限制人民的罷免權那就不應該讓這個法案繼續下去接下來我還要講一下就是我覺得這法案寫的有點粗糙為什麼"},{"start":6813.732,"end":6816.741,"text":"因為發現日期在有一個版本有一個版本沒有"},{"start":6817.369,"end":6844.286,"text":"但我們可以看到我剛才是稍微翻了一下譬如說在162頁這一個這應該是徐委員的這個版本他在這一個呢右邊這一個現有條文的時候沒有發證日期但左邊這邊就冒出了發證日期不知道為什麼不知道是不是傅公祺的版本複製過來但我記得你的版本是比較早的所以就是有些文字上的謬誤然後再來就是最後一個叫98條之二利用他人個人資料未經同意未造假冒提議連署"},{"start":6845.908,"end":6870.891,"text":"這個條文問題非常多為什麼第一個我們的法律本來就有規定第二個它的第二行叫做未經同意偽造那我在這邊稍微科普一下偽造的定義就叫做未經同意所以偽造就是偽造不需要未經同意偽造然後接下來就是偽造、假冒跟連署這其實三種不同的行為是不是要等量以關這個我看司法院其實已經有提到"},{"start":6871.511,"end":6889.325,"text":"所以其實有太多太多的事情其實應該要在委員會討論當然我猜可能等一下又要講說那是因為委員會沒有辦法召開啊什麼等等之類的我要告訴大家當今天你們真的要推一個法案的時候就算今天討論了我們的討論會直接被停止那昨天才發生的事情"},{"start":6890.256,"end":6905.859,"text":"一句話我都沒有講到就直接被停止討論其實我們在上會期就已經遇過太多事情所以我們也只好能夠在黨團協商的時候趁這個機會把我們的意見詳述那最後我還是要一個紅路委員講的我覺得非常重要的一點就是這個涉及事項"},{"start":6906.92,"end":6926.434,"text":"既然這一個會影響到現在的立法委員我覺得這第一個要三思第二個我覺得更應該往下我們要去注意的就跟釋字499號講的類似就是當我們今天會牽涉到跟這一個立法委員的報酬啦待遇啦什麼等等之類的他應該要怎麼樣要從刺借起實施啦"},{"start":6926.974,"end":6946.178,"text":"也就是說如果你真的要去做提高門檻這件事情的話人民的信賴利益也會被破壞那麼你就應該往後在下一屆的時候才可以適用但這一個東西呢也沒有在我們現在討論的這個法案的內容裡面所以我必須要講說呢這個就是第一個它的理由是不夠充分的第二個就是它的文字上也有很多的疑慮"},{"start":6946.798,"end":6974.42,"text":"那更不要講說行則的部分定的不明確再加上又有自我這個迴避的問題齁我是認為說至少我們在這一邊呢必須要審慎一對這個協商應該要拉長一點齁那我簡單講到這邊,謝謝好,謝謝沈薄洋委員齁啊,那個林憲吉委員有,有,有代表,對,你第一輪我讓你先講一下下一位就請蘇巧慧委員然後再張雅琳委員齁,OK"},{"start":6976.161,"end":6993.399,"text":"主席、各位歷任同仁我想今天我們在這邊進行這個協商大家都因為是尊重民主政治當中我們對於人民行使各項權利包括我們今天在這邊討論的有關於罷免前的這樣一個民主性我們都相信它是神聖的"},{"start":6994.46,"end":6994.68,"text":"主席"},{"start":7024.58,"end":7028.104,"text":"國民黨的版本是希望我們在這個罷免權利的形式上那更為"},{"start":7047.641,"end":7068.356,"text":"更為更細緻如果民進黨認為在這個行使權利的過程當中會對人民產生一些隱私上的影響那是不是可以用一個正面表列的方式或許在相關的法規裡面提出來你們對於在人民隱私上的疑慮"},{"start":7069.036,"end":7069.056,"text":"﹚委員"},{"start":7084.557,"end":7084.677,"text":"蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":7100.319,"end":7109.283,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天變成是歷史課大家都要來回憶我們之前的這個印象那我是覺得如果我們要開始回憶的話其實不能夠只有從7月4號那天在委員會當天這個混亂的現場開始回憶起"},{"start":7117.586,"end":7119.587,"text":"大家應該要更往前這個五月份的時候這個國民黨提出的這個擴權法案造成了這麼多的社會反彈在這樣的狀況 對不對甚至是從今年的二月換屆之後人數的多寡交替之後立法院呈現一個什麼樣的狀況大家開始來回憶起嘛"},{"start":7142.722,"end":7148.144,"text":"所以從五月的時候發現國民黨提的法案就算社會的大多數聲音民進黨的委員跟他說我們有意見我們覺得這個有問題社會上甚至是跟他們講說這個過去你們提的版本民進黨也曾提的版本或怎麼樣的版本大家都不同意不是多數所以沒有過他還是像現在今天這樣說沒有你們民進黨就是有提出"},{"start":7167.711,"end":7189.919,"text":"我們一直跟他講說可是後來沒有成啊就沒有過啊所以表示我們當時也尊重草野當時的草野的這個討論的結果最後沒有過他就不管他就是一直repeat重複repeat這台詞是一模一樣到現在好啦那結果這個五月的時候你看到二十幾號的時候哎呀坐在我對面這個沈伯陽委員真的你當時辛苦了從台上這樣跌下來真的是真的是幸好剛剛看看這個講話的時候都還是駝邏輯清楚啦齁"},{"start":7196.441,"end":7216.673,"text":"這是被到底是被誰推下來丟下來這樣的狀況看到現在人家都還說你是自找的耶到現在人家都還是說你是自找的這個實在是喔實在是覺得齁真的你看齁所以我們真的是要回憶一下然後呢所以當時的立法院氣氛就是"},{"start":7217.754,"end":7222.757,"text":"如果 如果 國民黨想要法案 就是要按照國會的人數多數 強行通過 淨富二讀快速通過 過水式的通過 那當然 後面他如果再提出任何的法案 我們當然要從第一步就開始阻擋啊好 那我們來看7月4號 7月4號是一個什麼樣的氛圍"},{"start":7241.73,"end":7246.071,"text":"七月四號就是在六月二十九的時候拆糧山海行動正提出啊我們已經超過第二階段的連署數了所以罷糧又進入一個新的階段哇經過了被這麼多人十萬人上街抗議的國民黨再加上這個看起來在基隆馬上就有這麼多人是願意站出來連兩階段的連署都已經過了"},{"start":7266.556,"end":7269.537,"text":"這時候的國民黨會想要什麼當然就是害怕下一波的大罷免潮發生嘛所以當然是要加嚴這個罷免的制度嘛怎麼樣加嚴罷免制度最好就是把大家不想拿出來的身份證影本把它加到條件裡面最好啊所以你看看他們的版本就是這樣嘛所以7月4號"},{"start":7289.566,"end":7302.631,"text":"當然當時委員會就發生了第一波的衝突嘛好啦在以為在委員會這邊已經擋下來了沒有想到竟然是近乎二讀就直接跳到說由國民黨召開協商就是今天的會議啊好 那我們把這個歷史還原了大家記憶還原不要只採取片段式的記憶要回憶就通通想起來要回憶就大家從頭到尾來說不要只有講這種片段式的狀況"},{"start":7318.536,"end":7337.94,"text":"好那第二個如果要從舊法條來講好了啦來啦那為什麼現在新的今天提出來的兩個版本裡面是只有國民的只有國民身份證影本和發證日期大家現在有沒有在實務上看到我們因為為了要防害詐騙這樣的狀況的時候防害詐騙狀況的時候"},{"start":7342.381,"end":7345.244,"text":"那會加上什麼樣的條件?其實有啊,蝦皮的實名認證制有加上發照日期了。你去換身份,你去要辦信用卡的時候,也有加上身份證的換證日期了。這表示加填換證日期是一個社會可接受的增加信用的條件嘛。"},{"start":7364.105,"end":7379.616,"text":"所以加換證日期是一個有道理的狀況為什麼?因為他不用把身份證留在別人那裡他只要在填的時候多填一個就好啦跟直接附上身份證引本整個圖鑑完全不一樣嘛所以完全不一樣的狀況下當然吳炳銳和蔡英宇當時的版本是加換證日期是符合現代現代的狀況的啊國民黨現在提出來的身份證引本是不一樣的嘛"},{"start":7390.612,"end":7401.558,"text":"所以主席我在這裡我用道理跟你講道理這才是剛剛什麼人家講的啊立法院是好好講道理的地方我現在就跟你講道理啊講道理是社會現行的狀況加換證日期跟加身份證影本是完全不同的狀況在實務的層次上面也完全已經得到不同的共識性了嘛好那如果"},{"start":7415.106,"end":7422.177,"text":"如果今天要認真討論條文那我們到底要改到什麼程度我們可以討論主席你今天是做一個協調會的主席"},{"start":7424.83,"end":7428.051,"text":"現在民眾黨也走啦 他說他有行程走啦 國民黨 欸 登登那 我不曉得今天的協商 等一下主席你要做出什麼樣的裁決 主席我們的國會影像都在錄 國會影像都在錄嘛 後面電視台也在錄嘛"},{"start":7446.656,"end":7446.956,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":7466.041,"end":7482.505,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我們今天有聲音嗎我想我們今天討論這個選罷法草案其實是關乎了台灣的民主制度這是一個非常嚴肅的事情因為我想你問任何一個人要參與聯署的時候必須把你的身份證拿出來這難度絕對是非常非常高的而且這絕對會造成我們這個詐騙的問題如果你現在把"},{"start":7487.686,"end":7490.527,"text":"一、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案"},{"start":7514.955,"end":7533.123,"text":"可能會造成未來這個詐騙橫行的問題再來第二個部分就是說其實呢剛剛薄洋委員其實也有說了嘛最主要的造假大戶其實是國民黨啦但是國民黨提出這個我也是覺得是蠻可笑的啦而且我們如果要討論這個這麼嚴肅的問題"},{"start":7534.884,"end":7560.565,"text":"其實我們應該要開公聽會上面諮詢專家學者的意見好好地來審議看如何保障民眾的罷免權的時候呢我們也可以來避免這個造假的問題可是我們這一次並沒有經過任何的公聽會來討論有關這個身份證的這個問題所以我自己會認為說其實有非常多的民間團體也有提出一些相關的建議"},{"start":7561.963,"end":7562.443,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員我們再來請王美惠委員"},{"start":7587.711,"end":7591.015,"text":"主席 噢 等很久了 多久了主席 感謝 給我這個機會啦因為今天 我覺得說大家要協商說這個選法法的時候是大家互相尊重問題出一台 要怎麼去改進嘛"},{"start":7609.034,"end":7612.077,"text":"不是說跟我們說出來民進黨說出來又不行國民黨說出來又可以這樣不好這樣不是叫做協商大家尊重的意見我們一個國家要進步就是要發展"},{"start":7624.671,"end":7629.195,"text":"覺得要如何補充要如何改善像現在大家的爭議點就是一方面大家要新聞局的議案本另外一方面新聞局的議案本的個資在報導誰要罷免的權益"},{"start":7649.091,"end":7650.793,"text":"因為有很多我想要罷免,但是為了要押韻新聞局的顧慮,所以我們去報導被誰想要做的工作,說實在我們這樣也不好啦,我看到剛才"},{"start":7667.208,"end":7669.91,"text":"一檔會遭料,另外一檔會遭料, 我覺得大家是互相尊重, 因為協商當中,一點點真的說不完啦, 我也感謝主席"},{"start":7682.503,"end":7687.727,"text":"主席給我們大家有表達的機會,因為我們的選法法的門檻像剛才說的,我們不能自己自毀自己,要適用在後面,也沒有人這麼發生、這麼行的,我認為"},{"start":7704.707,"end":7705.727,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7723.839,"end":7745.03,"text":"主席就算了,這是最重要的,我是要來請教我們的主席,醫生。好,我們謝謝王美和委員,那個事由幹事長跟議員,培宇還沒講,因為培宇還沒講,我們就請培宇講,因為現在大家,好,培宇講完我再來做宣告,好來,請培宇。"},{"start":7748.415,"end":7758.784,"text":"好,謝謝主席。既然要上歷史課,我來幫大家把時間軸拉遠一點,也幫主席複習。大家都說身份證交出來有資安的問題,剛剛美會委員也說了,"},{"start":7762.808,"end":7773.451,"text":"交出身份證大家會害怕我要提醒大家為什麼會害怕小的時候我爸爸說不要碰政治因為會叫國民黨點名做記號以前那個時代大家對於國民黨的威權統治如果都還記得所以我要提醒大家"},{"start":7781.635,"end":7797.116,"text":"現在所有人在擔心的,當我交出身分證,當我就是被認證我是要反對某一個政黨的人,請問那個民主的機制如何運轉下去?今天國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都已經不在這裡了。"},{"start":7798.317,"end":7812.373,"text":"但是他們就算在這裡我也不認為他們願意承認威權時代留下來的那個記憶的遺緒還在非常多台灣人民的心中所以他們今天做出這個非常荒謬的條文我要說的是"},{"start":7813.274,"end":7839.463,"text":"不是只有條文本身有資安的問題而是他背後如何想像台灣人民把自己身份交出去把身份證交出去他們如何對台灣人民交代再來大家最近都有看到NHK紀錄片在講各自被濫用的問題還有講中共對於全世界都有這種資安的問題請問國民黨或是民眾黨的委員你們自己要不要在這個議題上對台灣人民有所交代如果"},{"start":7840.183,"end":7868.92,"text":"如同剛剛司法委員有提醒主席也請主席等一下做出裁示如果今天的發言跟協商只是一個過水根本就已經準備好明天到院長那邊才要做實質的協商那我要再次提醒主席你身為今天協商的主席你必須要去呼應回應我們在這件事情上的擔心跟疑慮不要讓我們陪你坐在這邊聊天講故事我們很願意主張我們的論述我們也很願意友善的提醒國民黨"},{"start":7869.58,"end":7897.475,"text":"跟民眾黨的委員對於相關的疑慮他們完全不考慮但是並不代表我們今天要坐在這裡陪主席或是陪已經離開的國民黨跟民眾黨玩這樣的遊戲好 謝謝各位委員我想今天很感謝大家大家都不空來參與那個是要我先講完因為大家一直在問我現在要怎麼做覺得喬維尼一直在笑我跟各位講"},{"start":7898.666,"end":7918.584,"text":"我現在一定要依立法院執行實施法來做出我的裁示因為我們黨團協商今天不是主條討論今天是黨團協商一定要三個黨做成結論達成共識現在民主黨他說他先離開啦我也不能去制止他說你一定要坐在這邊跟大家一起協商"},{"start":7920.286,"end":7941.28,"text":"國民黨我們也離開了所以我們很難達成共識那依照我們立法院執行其實法71條沒有辦法達成共識其實我剛才就要宣布可以宣布散會的但是我已經承諾大家我要聽大家把意見表達完畢所以大家都已經有把自己的意見有做表達了所以現在才說下去你說"},{"start":7947.503,"end":7965.619,"text":"但是這麼說就不會達成共識啊沒有啦我明天我還是依照我的職責我要做出以下宣告有關本日之協商會議本席擬具結論無效就是你剛剛說要讓我發言完啊就是你剛剛說要讓我發言完立次選罷法的協商至少都協商兩次以上立次選罷法的協商"},{"start":7974.086,"end":7990.297,"text":"由委員會的審查：還有兩次以上的朝野協商：司令委員不要當過我對您的尊重：司令委員不要當過我對您的尊重：今天就是過水：今天就是演技：今天就是虛晃一朝零四年：你是歷史的罪人今天就是過水："},{"start":8003.946,"end":8003.966,"text":"請審議案"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024102160","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"16200","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16200","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e910ea1e62573b11ecd7d6d6b6b2497a86059d4d42a7fce21d33afd8c2bae42685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：財政、內政兩委員會報告併案審查委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-23T09:00:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-23T09:55:00+08:00","duration":3298,"影片長度":"00:54:58","委員發言時間":"09:00:02 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已經連席會議審查過了提案要職賴士葆跟副委員也都有說了大家看一下書面的資料上面有我們就不再贅述那我們來看這個"},{"start":2152.447,"end":2179.057,"text":"那時候我們也是理事長也有回應這個委員的提案這個資料也有那最後有關賴士葆結論我們財政部這邊的說法是賴士葆本人提案第四條第一項地方稅範圍定名為中央立法之地方稅及副公務員提案將地方稅擬定為中央立法所定的地方稅並增訂同條第三項這個"},{"start":2182.526,"end":2206.442,"text":"定明地方政府開徵這特別的稅科臨時稅科及附加稅科不適用第一項徵收率條高30%限制與第四條原立法一直相符這是財政部的看法所以尊重委員會的審議結果那之前我們已經聽取說明我們委員會已經聽取說明、詢答還有經過大體討論那基因討論後已經有達成共識全案審查完畢"},{"start":2212.466,"end":2236.802,"text":"審查結果是全案保留我們送院會處理這個是上一次開會的這個決議所以決議就是併案擬具審查報告提報院會然後院會進行二讀前要經黨團協商這就是我們今天進行協商的目的然後討論本案時羅昭吉文他會補充說明我今天來補充說明"},{"start":2238.257,"end":2238.277,"text":"國務院議員"},{"start":2254.562,"end":2276.588,"text":"謝謝主席因為就是有意見才會保留到政黨來進行協商雖然字眼上增加不多賴版跟副版其實條文上還只有一兩次的差異而已但是這裡頭最主要會無法達成公示的幾項原因我做一個比較敘述性的說明第一個因為這個其實親耳道有一點"},{"start":2277.308,"end":2300.237,"text":"因為個案修法的疑慮有相關的訴訟案件目前還在纏訟當中特別是花蓮縣的部分跟殺死業者之間所引發的一連串的爭議跟行政糾結從105年到現在一直在纏訟當中這個我讓主席瞭解一下所以這個此時此刻修法恐怕會落入個案修法的口實這是第一個"},{"start":2302.618,"end":2305.001,"text":"原條文第四條有規範30個人限制,卻限縮在所謂的中央立法所定的範疇"},{"start":2318.335,"end":2334.293,"text":"那也就是說只要是地方新增的這個稅源就沒有受這個比例上的限制那新增的稅源的部分有地方的相關條文是第三條你如果沒有一個比例上的限制的話那恐然無法預期那個稅率是如何"},{"start":2334.973,"end":2357.628,"text":"也就是說變成地方政府的整個地方自治的這個權力變毫無可以預測或依循所以它幾倍就變幾倍變成這種狀況所以說如果要修這條法的話嚴格來說也要附帶連同第三條一併來做修正這樣才會有一個比較有完整性"},{"start":2364.692,"end":2378.66,"text":"第四個部分是說其實地方稅法通則就財政部也好或學者也好大家都有類似的看法財政部也委託過研究就認為這個其實限制太多應該修法"},{"start":2382.282,"end":2404.925,"text":"陳委員前兩天主持的這個公聽會當中,我們也不斷提到說要充實地方的這個財源,增加他的自主能力,地方稅法通則應該要修。您後來做成的決議也是這樣子嗎?所以地方稅法通則其實老實講,對大部分的這個地方政府來說的話是看得到吃不到。"},{"start":2405.385,"end":2432.651,"text":"或即便吃得到也吃一點點然後因為只想可以吃一點點他就是要想要吃很大口所以產生了今天這個很大的爭議想成今天這個很大的爭議說源頭還是這一部法案呢基本上應該要去面對要去修然後要一個同盤的考量就如同我剛剛講說第四條跟第三條有連帶關係那是不是其他的這個稅源有可能再有一點開拓性不要太多的限制性這個其實基本上我是認為那個"},{"start":2435.024,"end":2455.148,"text":"財政部責無旁貸而且次長這個是專家當中的專家署長也算是在次長之後而已所以財政部最強的兩位稅制專家都在這邊如果他們想不出來誰能夠想得出來而且講白一點我認為這個條文一來真的要請財政部費刑去了解地方政府的一些相關的需求他們有沒有"},{"start":2461.529,"end":2461.97,"text":"懲罰財政部"},{"start":2491.629,"end":2516.757,"text":"所以說我是覺得是那個這個部分希望財政部再根據上一次的這個我們的公聽會的結論陳委員所做當任主席所做的結論還有今天這個政黨協商能夠盡速壓個日期好了看能不能在六個月內提出一些那相關的一個草案這個很重要提出一個那個"},{"start":2517.837,"end":2517.977,"text":"郭委員有意見嗎"},{"start":2538.235,"end":2551.445,"text":"主要是第四條的部分因為是委員提案嘛那委員提案的部分主要就是讓第四條的立法能夠說得更清楚因為本來我們第四條的立法本頁也是以中央立法的地方稅"},{"start":2552.666,"end":2570.001,"text":"這次委員提案基本上是文字上的明確化當然剛才郭委員講的這件事情涉及到地方政府他們開徵的權責那要不要把那個現行我們這個第三條有些限縮的範圍要不要再"},{"start":2570.541,"end":2587.63,"text":"放寬目前我們第三條限縮的範圍其實都有通案性的當時訂立的時候有全國全盤性的考慮當然需不需要再另外就是因為這次配合採訪法我們都覺得說地方稅法通則可能應該要並同做一個檢討"},{"start":2588.97,"end":2588.99,"text":"賴委員"},{"start":2611.124,"end":2624.617,"text":"我講這個題目是非常中性的而且很專業的題目我主要當初提這個修法主要是看到過去的立委也是財稅專家曾鉅威"},{"start":2628.621,"end":2650.968,"text":"他有一篇的在經濟日報吧有一篇的社論還有一篇的專欄特別提到所以現在來講的話我們地方稅法通則講說讓地方可以百分之三十裡面的調高的部分調高也調低但事實上基本上是調高啦那就就裡面來講的話事實上"},{"start":2652.768,"end":2653.269,"text":"中央立法地方稅"},{"start":2665.492,"end":2684.953,"text":"那這個就尊重地方政府,我去強調,等於把這個權力下放給地方。我要出來之前,剛剛為什麼不要玩呢?因為還接收到兩個媒體的這個,這個林立倫之聲的記者,這個題目,怎麼中心的題目為什麼還要?"},{"start":2685.894,"end":2686.054,"text":"中央"},{"start":2704.173,"end":2704.233,"text":"中央請客"},{"start":2734.953,"end":2755.358,"text":"目前來講整個的趨勢大家的希望能夠給地方多一點的彈性你現在就是說除了他等於是除了中央訂的條30%以外其他部分呢就尊重地方他也不是地方政府要怎麼調就怎麼調還要經過他的地方的議會"},{"start":2756.977,"end":2774.99,"text":"要議會同意,要議會通過,因為沒有過也不能做,他還不是說能夠地方政府去來獨裁,所以這個來講的話,我是希望說看會怎麼樣啦,這個可以有共識,那就通過吧,如果不能有共識,那就送到院委處理吧。"},{"start":2777.774,"end":2803.788,"text":"我剛綜合大家的意見這個剛剛郭委員講得很好這個當然但是你說所謂的個案修法那立法院常常就是遇到事情重大事情才會進行修法因為我們有時候比較慢通常沒有先進一步再修法我們應該檢討而不是說比如說像比如說消防我們說發生什麼消防事故的時候我們就開始萬馬十萬火急的開始修這個消防相關的法令所以為個案修法不等於是壞事"},{"start":2804.748,"end":2822.585,"text":"反而我們要檢討說為什麼我們都是要發生事情才去修法,因為我們比較,立法院的同仁們,我們比較遠見我們還應該事先修法,但是事後亡羊補牢猶未完矣,我們還是要跟得上這個時代的這個改變嘛,那剛剛,我剛剛舉消防的案例當例子,不是說未更修法就不好,"},{"start":2823.185,"end":2823.205,"text":"臺灣民眾議員"},{"start":2845.223,"end":2872.105,"text":"共同的這個想法所以我覺得承諾剛剛理事長所說的這個地方稅法通則我禮拜一也有講本來也是應該修你們也有提出來我也是很支持所以市長也的確是全盤的部分也應該是要去檢討我們才會往前走你們遂者要跟上那這個關於這個單項法律委員已經有賴委員跟副委員都已經提出來我們就往前走那後面你們該修的也要跟上不要說因為這個那我也贊同你說要研究所以"},{"start":2872.645,"end":2873.566,"text":"我也支持你的想法。"},{"start":2887.833,"end":2888.073,"text":"財政部長財政部長"},{"start":2918.483,"end":2945.761,"text":"我還有不同意見謝謝主席的回應第一個基本上往往有些重大事件的時候修法確實是有不是沒有但是這件事情不是事後現在是進行中ING它並不是事後也就是這個所有個案修法的疑慮在這邊而且在司法訴訟當中有兩兆雙方任何修法都會影響個別權益的問題"},{"start":2947.422,"end":2965.058,"text":"所以說這個基本上要慎重的一個原因是在這邊那第二個部分呢基本上我的論點其實都一樣就是說地方需要多一點稅源地方資助 地方財政需要更多的資助然後地方稅法通則需要修但是問題是怎麼修啊不是這樣修啦所以說我的保留意見是這樣子"},{"start":2965.618,"end":2979.333,"text":"所以我覺得剛剛還有一點就呼籲一下賴士葆委員就是說第三條的部分其實是一個關鍵的限制條款因為它限制實在有六大限制實在限制非常的多因此其實要動的話應該連同第三條一起動那配套來做處理這樣會比較完整一點"},{"start":2981.195,"end":2998.991,"text":"否則的話真的會陷入個案的修法的疑慮單純的用這一條來說那事實上我說的這個個案修法事實上是有一些司法案件正在訴訟當中因此我認為說這部法案需要修但是怎麼修應該比較全面的修讓地方政府更有裁員的修而不是為個案而修以上"},{"start":3001.397,"end":3017.217,"text":"我再提一下這不是什麼個案因為這個案子我在第十屆就提出來了第十屆因為屆期不連續那時候副委沒有提案只有我一個人提案只有我一個人提案在第十屆我就提了"},{"start":3017.777,"end":3045.72,"text":"主要各位都知道我們當立委這麼久就是你想修這個想修那個一定是看各界各界名家各個教授他們的看法因為那天我就看到這個曾俊輝修了這一篇我覺得說這個很有道理喔來著手來修所以我第十屆開始修但第十屆沒有過所以屆期不連續那這一屆得又拿出來修那故事整個story是這樣子的不需要什麼都把它政治化的時候戴上一個帽子不過"},{"start":3046.38,"end":3061.682,"text":"我尊重國務委員的立場 那就看我們主席怎麼裁定吧 好不好好 我尊重大家的意見事實上立法院法令本來就會影響到很多的個案比如說我們上一屆修民法的利息本來是20%"},{"start":3062.583,"end":3088.036,"text":"官員修正是16%嘛我記得那同時一定有很多訴訟案件是有什麼28跟16%的案子在那裡發生嘛一定有很多很多的個案這個毫無疑問的立法就是影響到百姓的這個但是我們是民意代表所以我們還是要做我們應該做的決定不過如果今天大家如果覺得說沒有辦法達成一致那我們就一樣就是保留我們還有還可以送到這個還有朝野協商這個階段嘛所以我們就保留然後送這個朝野協商讓他們還有一個月可以去討論嘛"},{"start":3088.916,"end":3092.898,"text":"賴委員的專業我都沒有看證據我就看你的來做參考以上兩案均保留送院會協商謝謝大家"},{"start":3121.078,"end":3145.022,"text":"主席主席要簽了這個保留保留可以送院這還是要簽啦那個貴委員這還是要簽啦送院會前這還是要簽保留嘛送出去協商沒有就保留啊就是保留送協商啊就有主持過這個大家有來參加啊好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝送院會好"},{"start":3155.017,"end":3170.997,"text":"今後即是差了一個檔案?"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024102262","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"155913","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155913","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63dd27b08db6847411f28c481b81b387dac1e35a7196978f1fb530526dddbaabce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:06:05 - 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七天假台灣已經變成全世界是過勞之島"},{"start":30.203,"end":30.303,"text":"紅樓202會議員：賴士葆"},{"start":48.835,"end":49.115,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":75.806,"end":98.017,"text":"反而是什麼?反而是企業主賺的錢沒有把合適的比例分給我們的勞工啊這個是勞工團體要去進一步的爭取的我給各位一個數字歐盟也好日本也好韓國也好GDP分給勞工的都是五成以上了台灣多少?45%"},{"start":100.666,"end":103.29,"text":"這幾年來都是45還要到43的咧就等於說企業賺了100塊錢給勞工的只有43塊45塊其他就是老闆拿走了"},{"start":112.319,"end":135.098,"text":"這是造成現在台灣為什麼普遍低薪很重要的原因了就是我們的企業家們這個老實講我不好意思用call門來講啦齁有些企業不call門不過很多的企業對勞工還是call門的啦齁還是call門這是第一點我想要強調第二點我想強調的齁我想強調我有提案我覺得"},{"start":141.857,"end":152.7,"text":"我覺得先講我最後才講說放假日的問題先講我們如果國定假日在禮拜二或者禮拜四的時候我們應該要求強制的要彈性休假你可以想啊今天中秋節端午節都是大家我們台灣人都要團聚嘛要團圓啊"},{"start":170.795,"end":196.168,"text":"團結的時候你卡在一個禮拜四禮拜五又上班這是什麼跟什麼所以我們就主動我們就說這裡面就要有機制只要碰到禮拜四或者禮拜二那就要跟他談心休假談心休假什麼意思呢禮拜二就禮拜一放假這樣就連起來了禮拜四的話就禮拜五放假禮拜五就掉班這個不要好像要仰賴這個政府啊他的 mercy他的恩賜"},{"start":201.681,"end":201.901,"text":"賴清德總統臺獨金孫"},{"start":227.096,"end":254.102,"text":"我們樂意見到他真正的擁抱中華民國這是台灣2300萬人的最大的公約書最大的共識而且確保中華民國老實講也可以讓台灣比較安全相對的老共比較不擔心或者擔心少一點所以你搞台獨所以有關於中華民國的相關的節日應該要放假"},{"start":255.523,"end":279.149,"text":"我們的國定教育開國紀念日1月1號已經放了但是呢我們的習憲紀念日都沒有放啊各位我們今天我們今天在這裡講了台灣華民族度民主啊說台灣的民主自由對抗中國大陸的極權專制統治這些是等等的我都不反對但是請問我們紀念我們的民主是什麼是習憲啦"},{"start":281.635,"end":293.58,"text":"中華民國沒有習憲 台灣會有民主嗎?會有今天這樣子的一個局面嗎?所以習憲紀念日 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那我們就確定那本日會議議程為 邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就有關新興煙"},{"start":1903.915,"end":1924.583,"text":"煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為進行專題報告那今天的這個題目很廣泛所以會有很多人來花圓我們現在介紹在場委員林業群委員一定都先叫你王振旭委員好"},{"start":1928.71,"end":1956.011,"text":"介紹在場的官員衛生福利部 邱太遠部長保護服務師 張秀嫣社會救助及社工師 蘇昭儒師長心理健康師 鄭淑欣師長"},{"start":1959.364,"end":1986.987,"text":"史耀署署長莊生宏社家署副署長張美美國建署副署長賈淑麗華為部檢察師郭永發市長警政署警政監吳東文"},{"start":1991.937,"end":1999.699,"text":"警政使黃志祖施怡仙副組長財政部關稅署陳世豐副組長國庫署專門委員林理珍"},{"start":2017.782,"end":2043.981,"text":"教育部學生事務及特殊教育師吳林輝師長國民及血淺教育署詹雅惠副組長綜合規劃師呂宏林專門委員司法院刑事廳吳元耀法官"},{"start":2047.02,"end":2053.405,"text":"我們接續請衛生福利部部長、邱部長報告時間5到7分鐘"},{"start":2078.538,"end":2102.392,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天大案第11屆第2次第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開第5次全體委員會議本部陳邀列席報告深感榮幸之就有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為提出專案報告,敬請各位委員不吝會議指教"},{"start":2105.285,"end":2129.671,"text":"背景說明,毒品對於健康危害影響生計,面對用毒品危害生命,衛生福利部持續配合法務部、教育部等相關部會、跨部會合作,包括在相關課程融入及加強宣導,更是強化藥品醫療及與專業廚藝服務資源的部件,提供更為便利的求助資源。而新興煙品"},{"start":2131.522,"end":2160.156,"text":"新興煙毒品防制一、我們配合法務部新興毒品類管策略、策進作為一、毒品細衣、毒品危害防治條例分市級管理由法務部主管、設有毒品審議委員會審議毒品的分級及品項本部食品藥物管理署為協助法務部加強新興濫用物質類管提供物質之料理"},{"start":2161.239,"end":2182.095,"text":"獨立資料包括其成癮性、難用性及對社會危害性等性質說明、相關實證、數據及國外分級類管情況等資料供毒品審議委員會委員評估。二、管制藥品則依管制藥品管理條例分4級管理由本部主管,所有管制藥品審議委員會審議"},{"start":2184.897,"end":2212.316,"text":"審理管制藥品是分級及品項對具醫療如目前已核有的藥品、許可證的藥品用途之新興濫用物質本部列管為管制藥品、法務部列管為毒品。三、令《煙災防治法》於1、612年3月22日修正施行包括全面禁止包括電子連載內的各類各式烈煙品"},{"start":2213.257,"end":2222.073,"text":"雙方與地方透過加強查處電子煙等烈煙品並予以狀化將可避免電子煙彈成為毒品載機"},{"start":2223.921,"end":2252.079,"text":"2.持續兒少保護,依兒少全法規定,任何人不得貫賣、交付或供應毒品、非法使用管制藥品或其他有害身心健康之物質與兒少為者處新台幣6萬元以上、30萬元以下的罰款。2.本部配合內政部落實暑期青春專案,督導各直轄市、縣市、政府加強透過多元管道加強先導。"},{"start":2253.34,"end":2280.663,"text":"三、跨部會的合作防止煙毒,而來由電子煙成為毒品載具情況,為防止電子煙含有毒品。與煙害防治法修法前以跨部會動員,若查獲之電子煙含毒品,依法務部主管之毒品危害防治條例查處,且各部會合作防止電子煙的分工,包括邊界攔檢、攝影水廠、流通機廠、"},{"start":2283.126,"end":2287.371,"text":"監控、管制、先導、傳播或藉制輔導等。2."},{"start":2287.371,"end":2295.76,"text":"毒品防制系為跨部會合作、中央地方協力、查緝、煙彈促請縣市衛生單位與煙災防治法加強先導及稽查,自112年。"},{"start":2301.719,"end":2313.266,"text":"3月22日至113年9月30日,針對電子連擊指定N品的實體及網路稽查合計50萬一家建設,其中包括實體對面稽查約47萬家建設,網路稽查3萬5"},{"start":2324.181,"end":2339.996,"text":"五一五加堅持,開立處方書記一二七四件財法金額到達新台幣七千多萬另以警政等單位合作及"},{"start":2342.12,"end":2358.354,"text":"受研追查並配合教育單位制毒品防治加強效應的管理提供成癮者成癮疫療補助降低就醫障礙為誰數使用新興毒品成癮者戒癮本部已指定要癮"},{"start":2359.611,"end":2372.605,"text":"介視機構156家並辦理藥癮治療費用補治方案降低就醫屏障令各地受有毒品危害防治中心提供施用毒品者衛教諮詢及資源連結協助護規"},{"start":2378.199,"end":2390.212,"text":"強化虐童防治作為,近三年,兒少保護通報案件成長近三成。本部會因應兒少保護案件日益增加,強化兒少三級預防。"},{"start":2397.387,"end":2423.179,"text":"租居院報告當然加強一一三保護專線推動暴力零容忍刺激醫療就是布置社福中心及社工人力等等第三級醫療就建立智慧化的兒少派案輔導模型並加強個案保護及家庭的一個廚藝特別針對黃室有困難形容不明的疑似我們會透過網路合作來降低風險"},{"start":2425.156,"end":2448.725,"text":"提升廚藝的效能,而為緩緩托嬰中心及家托育人類內童,規範地方政府設立民眾申請時應慎核有無消極資格,進行事前把關。針對違反《兒少法》第49條也要落實退場機制並提高罰款額度等等。本部將更新"},{"start":2450.173,"end":2477.479,"text":"強化推動兒少保護三級預防、克正研擬兒童及少年福利與權益保障法修正法案及兒童托育服務法草案、參佐聯合國兒童權利公約之精神以周延對兒童及少年的保護、完善托育品質保障兒少健康權益應應行政院五打七安政策本部將加速"},{"start":2478.772,"end":2493.116,"text":"管制藥品審議類管流程、配合法務部的反毒需求、維護國人身心健康本部曾答應各委員支持教育監督在此敬注這層,並期各位委員繼續予以支持以上,謝謝"},{"start":2504.457,"end":2518.807,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入刊登公報現在補介紹陳昭之委員現在開始巡檔做以下宣告"},{"start":2519.775,"end":2545.884,"text":"本會委員請答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止花園登記委員如有書面質詢請於上會前提出欲取不受理我們暫定10點30分左右休息10分鐘沿著上11點30分左右處理臨時提案11點截止收案我們中午不休息全部"},{"start":2547.366,"end":2572.547,"text":"都訓導完畢再休息現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員質詢謝謝主席有請委員長部長請部長早早部長早部長我昨天在做總執行的時候你有覺得我在歧視同志或單身女性嗎"},{"start":2574.164,"end":2603.516,"text":"昨天我們才見面你有覺得嗎為什麼我要這樣問部長因為我昨天總質詢之後有位民進黨的立委就是上次在那邊念法條看不懂的那位立委他說我歧視這個同志跟單身女那我要藉機會還原一下這個真相因為有一些部份的執政黨立委他一直說黛玉沒有共識問題很多所以要脫鉤但是我強調的是黛玉已經經過兩次公民會議三次的國家民調但10場以上的公聽會還有很多國家的研究計畫都是一面倒的支持"},{"start":2603.936,"end":2607.079,"text":"這個要待運要解禁那以這樣的結果他還是社會沒有共識嗎有社會問題嗎或是所謂的這個還需要脫鉤嗎那新興的議題反而新的議題因為我推動了二三十年那新的議題包括單身這個還有同志的部分他是個新的議題事實上沒有經歷過像公民會議啦不建署的民調或很多場的公民會議等等"},{"start":2626.918,"end":2635.723,"text":"的確社會有一群聲音他們會指這樣出生的孩子會不會得到最佳利益原則但是我要強調陳昭志要強調的是我主張平權我甚至單身還有同志男男同志我都包含在我的版本裡面我要強調我的法案是最完整的法案我強調每一個人都有這樣的有需求就要給他得到滿足所以我希望不要再因為"},{"start":2650.892,"end":2673.357,"text":"這樣子把指控我是這個歧視單身或是同志然後認為待遇要透過然後說沒有共識部長謝謝你法務部長今年這個6月我就收到一個那個一位高一孩子高一的媽媽的陳情他的孩子吸食了這個伊托米治他去報案他去石牌位派出所報案那報案的時候因為那個派出所說無法可"},{"start":2673.877,"end":2687.635,"text":"無法可辦沒有受理那當時我馬上追這個案子所以這個瞭解派出所他不受理的情形然後也追著食藥署要趕快去做這件事那當時食藥署的確就像今天我們看到的這個一般的這樣的程序來看就是說"},{"start":2690.278,"end":2707.581,"text":"實要是當時說他們已經剛剛完成這個把依託名字列為列為所謂的管制藥品管制藥品然後告訴我說要等60天公告之後才能正式就是生效那我問他那有沒有說到法務部呢因為我也擔任過管制藥品管理委員"},{"start":2708.101,"end":2713.244,"text":"我也擔任過大概20幾年後來他們說有即刻是送到那個法務部法務部有個讀審會讀品藥物審查委員會那他們也要開會但是也要再等60天這個就是現在的一般的這個正常程序那我覺得當我聽到這個媽媽這個可能媽媽她居然去為了孩子去報案她因為她的孩子有對方的名字有跟聯絡電話所以她去報案那我覺得對我來說我每天都在催這個案子"},{"start":2735.074,"end":2764.135,"text":"只要少一天加速一天公告生效有法可辦那麼這個壞人就可以少一天去做壞去危害別人這是非常清楚的但是問題就是去年9月就發生了這樣的事情那這邊資料都有新北的刑大那後來發現整個是全國流竄大爆發那根據第一線查緝警方說其實去年就非常的嚴重我相信法務部應該掌握有這個資料那我想了解的是"},{"start":2765.075,"end":2792.789,"text":"為什麼要經過這麼漫長的程序這個煙屍藏屍煙彈他的精神症狀他是一個他會精神恍惚然後渾身發抖等等那後來我們看到了也很多的悲劇包括他的毒架讓警員致死但是有可能警員是被知道因為他的身份特別可是可能有一般人受害我們還不知道可能受害的這個黑數是更多的話那我現在想要質詢的就是說那可不可以請那個"},{"start":2794.049,"end":2794.61,"text":"開放萊豬預告只要7天"},{"start":2810.882,"end":2839.668,"text":"你要給一個萊豬開放民眾死安逆慮的你給他等待七天喪屍煙彈為什麼這個管制要公告兩個月才生效剛剛我也提到這個這個成本我非常熟悉我是藥學背景這個依托彌子他本身是有醫療用途在開刀手術房他是作為麻醉劑所以他在醫院是有用途的所以醫院當時只列為第3級的管制第4級的管教我可以接受因為他有醫療用途可是當他不是正當的用途跑出去的時候"},{"start":2840.248,"end":2846.539,"text":"那這個目前是列為第三集第三集是不是恰到等一下我們要來討論那請部長先回答我為什麼開放萊豬預告七天為什麼喪失煙彈管制要拖兩個月才公告開放"},{"start":2853.773,"end":2865.401,"text":"巴委員我非常感佩你關心這個議題,這個就是平常我們在醫療上用的很不錯的藥我聽說我的關鍵是怎麼一個七天、一個案兩次我意思是說這是一個很不好的事情,就是說拿來給我們用影響到一個醫藥的真實用那我請教部長,管治藥品管理會多久開一次會?那我跟委員報告"},{"start":2879.431,"end":2886.164,"text":"那因為我們有這裡這個的確是在委員的期待以及說社會的期待所以我們已經把它從兩個月變成14天"},{"start":2891.158,"end":2910.419,"text":"公告日期改了是不是?公告日期改了是不是?馬雙署長在點頭是不是?那我要想到這個管政品管理會你有這麼重大的事情發生你不能說一年召開三次、四次會議啊你要開緊急的臨時會議啊這個每延長一天你就害死多少小孩害死多少家庭了"},{"start":2910.959,"end":2912.8,"text":"法務部司長、國司長請問毒品、毒藥審議委員會多久開一次委員好,我們都審會是每3個月開一次必要的時候可以再加開"},{"start":2926.547,"end":2948.484,"text":"有嗎?那這次有為了這個而加開會議嗎?跟委員報告,我們在3月份就已經提出一通名詞的一個動議,由法醫研究所提出議警那議警完了之後,因為我們審議是由外部委員專家來審議,他必須具有成癮性,還有這個社會危害性等你已經講到審查的標準,我大概了解審查標準"},{"start":2952.347,"end":2973.984,"text":"這個案子拖了多久?3月份之後在6月13號我們就開了這個審查會議把伊托米子類管為三級毒品那因為伊托米子如果類管為三級毒品之後可能其他毒品會有代替的效應所以又把香類鹽物、美托米子跟薏餅、帕桶同時類為三級毒品"},{"start":2976.226,"end":2999.122,"text":"市長,我要講為什麼要公告兩個月?毒品要公告兩個月嗎?已經危害這麼大,全國大串流,要等兩個月嗎?公告生效兩個月嗎?報委員,我們沒有公告兩個月,我們毒品會通過...你6月13號通過,然後你8月19號才...對,因為要報行政院公告,我們法制作業做完之後要報行政院公告,行政院是在8月份公告生效"},{"start":3000.863,"end":3008.008,"text":"市長跟部長,你們認為這個東西遇到緊急狀況,是不是應該要稍微有彈性,不要那麼僵化?市長,我們的確有彈性,不管是開會或者是預告期,的確是有彈性"},{"start":3016.028,"end":3030.897,"text":"管制藥品那邊是列為第4級,你這邊列為第3級,但是有第一線的警戒,因為這個有提出來,劉世芳部長也有這樣談,他們希望列為2級圖品,我想了解當時你們的思考是怎麼樣?法刑度完全都不一樣,處罰威嚇力完全不一樣。跟委員報告,這個議題,因為這是獨審會委員審議通過的,那因為這一個可能對社會危害性有蠻嚴重的影響,所以"},{"start":3046.045,"end":3050.767,"text":"本部部長在要求我們,我在這個禮拜一我們就發函要準備來檢討是不是要把它升級"},{"start":3057.268,"end":3076.321,"text":"禮拜一這個禮拜一就發好我正想問你說你們是一旦公告已經公告了嗎是不是有必要是要滾動式的去趕快檢討看國內情形嗎你犯難的情形危害的情形然後你要修改級數然後你你這個這個刑法法則也都要不刑度也都不一樣是所以市長是有在做是不是有有禮拜一就發函了是"},{"start":3078.143,"end":3095.155,"text":"請市長繼續留在台上請問部長或市長有沒有看過美國很有名的兩部劇一個叫絕命毒師跟絕命律師主角分別是一位制毒的毒販跟一門專門幫毒販辯護的律師臺灣這個民主法治國家即便是罪犯我們也要給他基本的權利但請法務部看一下這個廣告大大的廣告"},{"start":3099.059,"end":3113.875,"text":"販賣毒品吸毒被抓怎麼辦?成功無罪緩刑上百件勝訴這是廣告欸另外一個廣告販賣一二級毒品有解立即徵詢立即諮詢這個是在鼓勵販毒吸毒嗎?市長請市長先回答"},{"start":3119.314,"end":3141.562,"text":"這個也可能涉及到這一個鼓勵犯罪的行為我相信包括我們警察同仁在也會網路巡邏你覺得這個可以嗎?這個廣告可以嗎?為什麼沒有發現呢?這個我們網路巡邏應該也會加以助理網路巡邏失敗嘛!這個整個大大叫人家趕快來吸毒啊而且你一旦販毒吸毒都沒罪我可以幫你脫罪啊"},{"start":3142.982,"end":3152.598,"text":"廣告可以廣告成這樣嗎?律師法第40條明文規定不能以誇大不實不正當方法去推展業務法務部能處理嗎?這件事能處理嗎?能迅快處理嗎?"},{"start":3154.361,"end":3176.335,"text":"還是無法可管?當然這個有如果是律師做廣告這還涉及到律師的倫理規範問題我們這個沒有法條就有倫理規範是一件事法條已經講說不能以誇大不許不正當的方法推展請各位公道嘛這個你可以這樣講你販毒了我可以幫你解擺脫我可以幫你除罪啊"},{"start":3177.898,"end":3197.876,"text":"有解啊這個廣告大大大在我們台灣的廣場上這個市長法務部多加油吧部長你知道我考最後部長部長你知道醫療哪些東西可以廣告不能廣告嗎醫療可不可以廣告醫療行為可不可以廣告醫療不能廣告藥品呢藥品哪些藥品不能廣告藥品分幾集您知道嘛"},{"start":3203.848,"end":3205.109,"text":"那是可以的啦"},{"start":3233.489,"end":3234.951,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長?"},{"start":3262.679,"end":3276.586,"text":"委員長部長早部長你知不知道你們現在整個煙品的裁罰率非常的低如果以現在113年1到9月你們稽查了23萬件2612件僅開罰了539件等於是1萬件才裁罰23件"},{"start":3285.946,"end":3298.1,"text":"為什麼整個裁罰率這麼低?你們到底是怎麼在執行的?這就是執行不力啊!那這樣子大家怎麼會擔心怎麼會害怕呢?你們那個嚴重的落差到底出現在哪裡?"},{"start":3299.366,"end":3306.171,"text":"我想我們查了三四萬件,那23萬件,23萬件,那那個...我要問的就是你裁罰率為什麼這麼低?那有一定的法規確認以後"},{"start":3317.78,"end":3318.7,"text":"特別請我們柏建署"},{"start":3334.76,"end":3358.419,"text":"跟委員報告在電子煙上面如果是廣告跟販賣是65件那如果是稀食呢稀食是電子煙加加熱煙是137這麼少你這個比例非常非常的低我要指出來的就是現在按照中華民國的法令稀食電子煙就是違法它跟稀食煙瓶是不一樣的"},{"start":3359.44,"end":3377.567,"text":"禁止吸食電子煙更何況是販賣製造輸入通通都是不允許的所以你對於這種吸食電子煙的開罰這個董事基金會就講了為什麼吸食不能立刻開罰公然在公共場所吸食電子煙為什麼不能開罰"},{"start":3378.467,"end":3396.44,"text":"你還要經過程序還要行為人陳述我們的交通法規你一違規照相一拍就立刻開法有陳述的嗎沒有這個就是強力執法那請問你對於電子煙你為什麼不採取這樣的動作他基本上是違法他跟一般你現在傳統的煙品是不一樣"},{"start":3397.361,"end":3415.775,"text":"那為什麼還需要陳述因為在整個煙害防治法的這整個論文裡面它就是有這個約詢而且要確定但是電子煙是你禁止的你把它跟合法傳統的煙品你那個整個裁法的模式一模一樣難怪你們效率這麼差我要求你們要立刻改善它是違法行為"},{"start":3418.217,"end":3441.973,"text":"一般稀釋的是有分場所有合法場所跟不合法它是可稀釋但是電子煙你們明文規定它就是禁止稀釋不是嗎是禁止的東西違法事項就是應該立刻開罰我覺得這個部分就是你們現在一個很大的漏洞我要求你們要立刻修正立刻採取你的採訪模式第二個你們對於網路上面電子煙"},{"start":3443.634,"end":3467.441,"text":"這種非法的廣告這麼的猖狂你看我們截取下來的畫面它可以公告說它的銷售已經達到65萬件嚇死人啊這麼龐大的一個銷售量它可以公然列在網路上面就這樣子銷售而我們通過的《煙害防治法》裡面對於這種廣告行為你知道處多少嗎40萬以上"},{"start":3471.442,"end":3471.702,"text":"廣告行為"},{"start":3486.047,"end":3506.139,"text":"是輸入才是一千萬以上?製造跟輸入都是一千萬嗎?那廣告裁罰多少?有裁罰嗎?有你們有在稽查嗎?你們現在稽查了幾件?跟委員報告在網路稽查的部分我們大概有三萬多件次的那目前 61件"},{"start":3509.105,"end":3528.443,"text":"又是這麼懸殊的比例,為什麼?因為這個網路稽查裁法也是有陳述行政的一些程序我真的要求你們要通盤的去檢討你今天特別針對電子煙的這個部分,它是危害最大的今天為什麼連法務部都來?電子煙已經變成是我們毒品的一個載具了"},{"start":3529.224,"end":3554.498,"text":"所以它非同小可它跟你傳統煙品的管制你應該就要有另外一套嘛結果你們的裁法模式就是上次修法罰那麼重製造輸入都是1000到5000萬結果你們在執行下來的成果都很差罰的都很少你們整個執行下來現在total的金額才罰了7000多萬所有煙品那電子煙這個部分去修那麼重罰有什麼用你們根本"},{"start":3554.998,"end":3562.263,"text":"沒有落實嘛所以我要求網路平台這一塊它危害其實非常的巨大你們剛剛3萬件才罰了61件這個也是不符合比例這個為什麼還有陳述的問題呢這個就是依照法令你電子煙是違法你一看燈也是違法就是立刻開法為什麼還有陳述的問題我覺得這一方面這個請衛福部真的要徹底的檢討另外一個我要我請這個法務部也上來法務部檢察司郭司長"},{"start":3585.39,"end":3586.675,"text":"有關於現在的這個"},{"start":3588.491,"end":3615.02,"text":"電子煙的問題它已經衍生到就是它是毒品適用的載具所以在源頭的茶器特別是製造跟輸入這方面的打擊犯罪其實非常的重要但是你們現在是分開的對不對有涉及到毒品的才有法務部如果純粹電子煙的都是衛福部這樣子的分工是對的嗎當它已經新型態已經混合在一起了你們不是應該要一起共同打擊犯罪嗎"},{"start":3616.17,"end":3637.296,"text":"跟委員報告因為電子煙它是一個載體所以那個煙彈如果是毒品的話就會涉及到毒品防治條例的刑責如果沒有的話它其實是行政裁法行政裁法就不在我知道但是實務上現在蠻多其實就是混在一起你懂我意思嗎就是它"},{"start":3638.396,"end":3663.965,"text":"現在電子煙其實很多都變成是毒品適用的載具了所以如果你們兩個單位還要分得這麼的清楚我只能說以衛福部的力道他要去查緝這一種偷偷已經涉及犯罪的電子煙的廠商其實他們力有未待到目前為止你們看衛福部他的製造方面電子煙的部分製造你們掛的數據是零件你們查到的是零件"},{"start":3665.445,"end":3674.785,"text":"最新的是那個桃園他有查獲2000萬的這個電子鹽市值超過2000萬電子鹽你們在製造工廠你們自己的業績是掛零"},{"start":3675.717,"end":3700.719,"text":"那這樣的一個查緝力道你認為我們對於打擊這樣的一個非法的電子煙會有成效嗎?已經實施一年多了我們抓不到製造但是在網路上面幾十萬幾十萬在賣也那麼多人在抽這個在整體的打擊效應上面不是大打折扣嗎?你們就是兩個單位太會分了嘛分太開了嘛這個部分這個我請法務部回去研議喔對於這一種新興的樣態"},{"start":3703.621,"end":3722.691,"text":"你們在打擊犯罪你們應該要加進來要不然我覺得法都是定假的我們現在的煙這個去年修正通過的你如果電子煙的製造輸入違反是一千到五千萬的罰款我就問兩個單位到目前為止有罰過任何一家嗎?你們當時新聞稿寫得很好聽哇我們修法就是重法最高就是五千萬講得好像雷利風行"},{"start":3732.116,"end":3754.03,"text":"法到目前為止你們總額也才到7千那麼多件也才到7千萬那我相信這個製造跟輸入的應該沒有一家被重罰過5千萬的金額是不是是不是到目前為止沒有一家目前新北跟台北都正在程序中在這個所謂的製造的這個裁罰中所以到目前也只有兩件嗎"},{"start":3756.33,"end":3779.507,"text":"還有台中三件目前才查到三件嘛但是市面上這麼的氾濫這個法務部這個司長你說一句話法務部該表態了吧我說這件事情光靠衛生單位其實是沒有辦法的犯罪你們比較有辦法那這當中你不要說電子煙是電子煙這當中很多就是混合這個犯罪的手法就在裡面了啦"},{"start":3780.227,"end":3802.851,"text":"你們要不要加入這個共同打擊的行列這個本來就在我們這個查緝平台上面包括衛福部都有在這個平台上面那你們製造現在總共才找到三件真的是太少了啦這個我希望法務部你們回去就是要好好的研究最後我要講我們現在官方的宣導趕不上煙傷的洗腦"},{"start":3806.152,"end":3828.865,"text":"我們的速度真的都太慢了你可以看到無論是法務部或者是其他單位你們在網路上面青少年專區的資訊都到111年或112年那你看這一些煙商他怎麼在網路上面去廣告他怎麼洗腦他都說煙彈它是一種更安全更健康的替代吸煙方式"},{"start":3829.685,"end":3846.884,"text":"西煙就是有害人體健康有更安全跟更健康的嗎那像這一種你們如果你們自己的宣導不利真的是煙傷跑得比你們快啦就是不就是花大量的廣告在平台你又不管制他所有的訊息都去洗腦我們的年輕人"},{"start":3848.513,"end":3871.493,"text":"那這個我們的防治其實效果就會非常的差所以這個部長在打擊電子煙的這一件事情還有就是防止毒品這件事情你真的要硬起來要跟法務部合力而且你們在裁法的部分現在裁法率過低的問題我要求你們一個月之後要交出檢討報告要怎麼改善好不好"},{"start":3872.003,"end":3872.543,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長"},{"start":3902.236,"end":3928.836,"text":"委員長部長早剛才大家前面都在講毒品那我這邊也不例外就是想把兩個主題結合起來毒品跟額虐這個課題所以今天想來跟部長討論如何進行我們藥酒飲的家庭支持服務來避免額虐不斷的發生那首先根據衛福部的2019年到2022年的一個5年的統計觀察我們可以看到我們一些額虐的樣態裡邊"},{"start":3930.509,"end":3940.139,"text":"那酒飲的人數近5年事實上是平盤可是沒有下降那藥飲事實上人數反而是5年內增長了2.5倍"},{"start":3941.618,"end":3965.094,"text":"那這個統計當然是附選題他有施虐者有可能還有缺乏親自照養的知識甚至互相情緒的特質或親密關係的失調跟經濟因素並不單一可是有沒有去注意到因為過去我在民間在處理惡虐的時候很常就是因為藥酒飲而引發的惡虐事件那再看這些"},{"start":3966.395,"end":3993.469,"text":"指出藥酒飲的這些物質使用為什麼會增加而虐的可能性2023年美國的國家家庭暴力跟創傷跟心理健康中心也指出說這個第一個可能會影響到我們肆虐者的行為因為酒精跟毒品會影響到人的判斷力就像剛剛前面兩個委員質詢的也是你看內湖的那個造成三死兩傷一樣的就是說"},{"start":3996.17,"end":4023.821,"text":"在家裡是不是如果有這樣的藥酒飲的話可能會增加衝動跟易怒的暴怒的行為然後呢會讓孩子有更大的風險還有破壞家庭關係因為這種物質使用會讓他對孩子的目不關心然後甚至會出現家庭暴力那就增加孩子被虐的一個風險還有因為藥蠻貴的所以呢這個毒蠻貴的話就會增加大量金錢的使用然後就會導致家庭經濟的困難"},{"start":4025.492,"end":4027.973,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為"},{"start":4048.662,"end":4071.802,"text":"那從剛剛前面的那個美國的藥酒營對額內的影響當中我們也知道這個指標列是應該的那可是我去問一線社工他們最大的困難是這樣列進來了是退家沒有問題問題是他要怎麼處理因為這些都是非自願性的家長那他們大部分都是沒有病史感"},{"start":4072.438,"end":4093.732,"text":"對阿他被列為吹家那接下來呢這沒有錯這個事實上是2018年的報告者可是直至今日還是如出一轍的也就是說根本要請他們進到醫院進到行為中心去接受治療這社工界面對到的困難"},{"start":4095.424,"end":4116.09,"text":"今天委託民間單位或者是地方政府自己做,做了又如何呢?因為做了,他還是沒有辦法解決我即便一個月去訪一次,知道崔家有這樣的狀況可是重點是沒有辦法解決這個問題所以社工為什麼留不住?因為當他的案家很多問題是沒辦法解決的時候當然是留不住人啊"},{"start":4117.136,"end":4140.479,"text":"所以就要來問一下現在的確我們的藥酒飲的家庭的服務可以看到有新建師我們的設救師有各式各種的藥酒飲的個案的服務計畫可是現況是什麼這些計畫都是被動的今天如果他不上門又沒有任何法律強制"},{"start":4142.697,"end":4160.333,"text":"想問部長你這前端的預防到底是什麼那這兩個單位都是我們衛福部轄下的管理單位如果要等到個案自己上來做我們的介制的話那個案不願意來這就是普遍社工遇到最大困難我們到底要怎麼做部長"},{"start":4163.339,"end":4191.213,"text":"謝謝委員這麼詳盡的把我們整個相關的議題做這麼清楚的分析那也指出了前端的重要性那前端就是在整個在心理健康的一個推展我想這個對整個在藥酒飲方面會有很大的幫助所以在這個部分政府也提出了很多的方案在努力我想"},{"start":4191.783,"end":4193.163,"text":"所以這個就是要配合也要跟縣市衛生局合作"},{"start":4214.606,"end":4243.213,"text":"社工的系統不是有問題才去好像救火員他應該是一個巡查員可是你崔家就已經把他們列為指標說一定要他就是你要關懷對象問題是我們要解決他問題預防說他會不會有惡虐當初為列為這樣的指標之一也是怕他有惡虐的可能性結果他不進去治療的話接受那個戒指的話你根本就是沒有辦法他不接受治療他不去接受"},{"start":4243.66,"end":4244.74,"text":"對社工的提供服務,我想他就是一個提供服務"},{"start":4269.185,"end":4289.78,"text":"我們的確是沒有辦法有這個強制力但如果是提供服務應該是它的進變性跟可及性是要被考慮所以難怪我們的藥酒營還是有額內的問題所以你們自己去看這個就是你們的服務所以我剛剛前面提到說從檢察署的數據來看到每一年大概私用土餅的大概7萬多人可是興建師申請藥酒營"},{"start":4292.022,"end":4292.142,"text":"主席"},{"start":4302.523,"end":4325.901,"text":"怎麼樣去做被保護那酒飲一樣的也就是為了協助酒飲的那個陳癮的治療衛福部有補助法定裁定這個加報加害人相關的酒飲治療費用這確定已經有加報的可是衛福部回答我們辦公室也說那個藥酒飲不是全民健保給付的項目所以沒有辦法透過資料來掌握數據"},{"start":4328.322,"end":4355.453,"text":"常常我都覺得你要有數據才能夠去解決問題可是我們自己大概沒有什麼數據所以我們就找到臺灣成癮學會的統計推估臺灣有80人有酒癮的問題可是衛福部大概看這近三年的數據我們的酒癮服務人數雖然有逐年增加可是也只有3000多的家暴加害人我前面問是說你列為這個指標催加可是如果他真的後來動手了看起來似乎"},{"start":4357.062,"end":4357.863,"text":"新興煙毒品防治作為"},{"start":4375.922,"end":4388.813,"text":"也可能他還是處在家庭維繫方案的一個處遇模式的時候那他也不想啊因為他不想那個戒酒戒毒的時候他不覺得自己有問題的時候你怎麼去"},{"start":4389.623,"end":4411.792,"text":"往往因為都是不開案服務所以想問是說那我們的孩子怎麼被照顧到被保護到如果在家庭維繫他就是列為兒保那他又不願意去接受戒酒飲這樣子的處理計畫那就直接申請社工直接申請依職權申請保護令有法院去命他做戒酒飲的治療"},{"start":4414.643,"end":4433.239,"text":"這個我想問市長很清楚有這樣做嗎否則不會社工一直他們現在很辛苦的地方是案子在手上做不了事情而且我們的維繫方案坦白講跟國外的不太一樣人家是一個月內幾乎都在案加我們是上次久久才看一次"},{"start":4433.639,"end":4436.281,"text":"2023年國會委員就邀請學者在我們的研討會當中分析這幾個國家都有去應對的預防性的"},{"start":4463.699,"end":4476.051,"text":"的政策在執行．既然國務院做出來．他不是讓你們訴諸高閣．而是應該要有更積極的作為．那接下來想問的是"},{"start":4477.403,"end":4506.478,"text":"到底是需求有減少嗎還是問題變好了可是我們沒有看問題變好了可是怎麼是逐年減劣而且2025年對直轄縣市政府各縣市的補助就不見了那藥酒飲家庭的後續追蹤的預算又是一個逐年減劣想問前面我都擔心做不好了社工也一直覺得他沒有辦法在你那邊拿到服務的時候結果現在竟然預算是減劣"},{"start":4507.298,"end":4509.28,"text":"市長,我剛剛講,如果按"},{"start":4528.174,"end":4537.137,"text":"你們有沒有主動讓它進到你們體系然後你們就是因為沒有人來然後就檢列可是它問題是還是存在的"},{"start":4537.714,"end":4561.91,"text":"所以對於藥酒飲家庭的支持服務我主張家庭有錢在藥酒飲個案的話請追蹤列管主動關懷還有對有藥酒飲且已經對孩子不當對待的請你們訂立相關的法令或者是要用什麼方法來讓他強制就醫所以請衛福部在研擬討論後回覆辦公室一個禮拜可以嗎"},{"start":4563.474,"end":4590.188,"text":"報告委員我想我們兒權法裡面會把剛剛你提的這部分加進去可是你兒權法到現在都還是完全沒有辦法也沒有任何修正啊結合民間的社工室然後由主責的政府的社工室一起大家建構一個網絡不要兒童的虐待兒童沒被保護到社工又出眾然後讓現場的崩盤一個禮拜可以嗎可以一個禮拜我們提出這個規劃謝謝"},{"start":4593.932,"end":4599.314,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請陳秦威委員質詢謝謝 我請衛福部部長部長請委員長"},{"start":4630.319,"end":4651.265,"text":"我們看一下剛剛已經有非常多委員提到了毒品已經奪走我們許多員警或者是無辜的生命包括在路上行走的路人那最重要的關鍵就是說現在新興毒品它很複雜電子煙是你要管的但是毒品又是別人要管的那電子煙只是一個載具"},{"start":4652.665,"end":4677.753,"text":"好 這個會報呢是我們卓院長上任以後也是您上任以後第一個很大規模的這個毒品防制會報喔不管是院長、副院長、秘書長還有兩位這個政務委員全部都到齊了可是你看那一天我們的缺席率是六成這麼多人找代理那再來司法院的廳長是直接NO SHOW欸好 那我想問一下"},{"start":4681.089,"end":4704.554,"text":"您有多重視這個議題啊因為你那天也沒有出現但是那天的會議你們通過了未來四年第三期即將投入150億的新世代反毒政策行動綱領剛在六月核定喔你們通過了這麼一大筆錢結果有六成的人缺席所以你們的橫向串聯怎麼可能會做得好呢"},{"start":4706.363,"end":4733.691,"text":"好,我想毒品防治匯報這個是持續的,已經35次了那它的很多的計畫應該是持續性一直在討論才會有當天的一個計畫的核定那我想這個都是一直持續在做的那我們大概都也是由本部也是由主責的主責實驗室的製造你下次會到了啦"},{"start":4736.551,"end":4736.571,"text":"市長"},{"start":4762.973,"end":4786.135,"text":"委員好跟委員報告這個二級毒品我們在禮拜一已經發函徵詢各機關在收集資料因為我們6月份才通過依托米子為三級毒品那短短幾個月要把它提升為二級毒品當然這個我們要收集資料完了之後我們預計在下個月底或者12月初會開毒品審議委會來檢討"},{"start":4788.157,"end":4802.448,"text":"好 那我們看一下這個圖片因為第一線的員警有跟我反應他們在做盤查的時候發現有些人開車很奇怪所以高度懷疑他是依託就吸了這個喪屍煙彈結果抓到的人也承認"},{"start":4803.669,"end":4829.604,"text":"可是如果你們有這個衛福部部長不知道知不知道他們在查緝比如說安非他命他員警的檢驗會馬上變色這個從透明的變成接近紅色可是你看這個查衣脫米紙你看得出來他陰性跟陽性很難分如果你是在晚上又更難分因此那天呢這個員警只好放他走了因為他最後驗出來可能看起來像是陰性"},{"start":4830.744,"end":4852.892,"text":"什麼時候呢我們這個檢驗設備才能夠一致性可以完善可以讓第一線的人員有擁有好的武器我想這個毒品如果有這樣的一個擔心我想我們應該在毒品審議委員會裡面才提出來"},{"start":4854.028,"end":4855.029,"text":"請莊署長看看有沒有如何改善"},{"start":4865.677,"end":4888.156,"text":"報告委員,因為我們在鹽檢組其實可以是做這個的檢驗,那我們也有檢驗的方法。但是因為我們那個檢驗沒有辦法在On-site做這個,它這個是一個Kit,馬上當場看。那我們通常在送回鹽檢組做的那個東西都會比較時間會延後,包括它從它的樣品,但是那個方法我們是有。"},{"start":4888.616,"end":4909.064,"text":"所以這個方法您要不要跟內政部一起討論一下他們怎麼樣可以做好一個有效率的對因為我想因為這個是他的現場警員他去抓著看的時候他是用一個快篩機那在食藥署事上我們是做的我們都會送回嚴監處有實驗室的方法去做"},{"start":4909.224,"end":4922.201,"text":"他現在沒有辦法把他帶回去他沒有辦法用你的那個方法對 那我們這個可能再跟內政部、刑事警察局都可以在時間時間"},{"start":4924.412,"end":4939.783,"text":"內政部刑事警察局也可以做跟我們完全一樣的檢驗我知道委員現在是說如果怎麼去開發快篩劑比較有效的我們會跟他們一起討論這個你知道嗎跟其他的毒品比起來它第一線的快篩非常的模糊"},{"start":4940.963,"end":4960.833,"text":"我想這個相當重要,我們已經去研發,去跟廠商看看能不能更清楚,因為常常抓到的時候天色是比較暗的,你這也要讓他們很清楚那我也可能會請你們一個月內提供報告給我,到時候要怎麼幫第一線的這些執勤的人員改善他們的配備嘛,不然他們怎麼抓?"},{"start":4961.866,"end":4980.592,"text":"好,如果改善這個KID的一個鑑別度好,下一個部長其實等一下你如果沒有遇到你上來的時候你也繼續在社群媒體上找找看現在啊,喪屍煙彈網路上還是隨隨便便都有一大堆可以買得到這個剛剛也很多委員問到了啦"},{"start":4982.402,"end":4999.275,"text":"從我們之前討論這個兒少私密片等等外流你已經講了其實主席我們今天好像也需要找數位部來感覺你們對於不管是毒品、電子煙、加熱煙等等還有等一下我要討論的你們對於這件事情都束手無策"},{"start":5001.001,"end":5028.624,"text":"你是不是至少也發個函給這些搜尋網站請他們配合把這些都關閉掉報告委員這個跟社群網站的部分國民健康署是定期跟這個業者來召開會議那大概是每一季會開一次會議而且我們建立一個綠色通道就彼此在這個keywords上面或是一些關鍵圖片上面做一些彼此的交換"},{"start":5029.364,"end":5030.805,"text":"國建署也在這個過程中多次的拜訪幾家比較嚴肅的業者或者是幾家有進步的業者把進步業者的經驗提供給還是持續有在刊登的這些業者所以這件事情是我們很加強力道在跟社群業者來溝通的"},{"start":5050.231,"end":5071.452,"text":"因為您今天給的報告就是說你們從112年3月開始加強查緝但是如果部長我跟你一起來做一個網路直播啊我們可以跟一般的人民說你這個衛福部今年1到9月只裁罰了539件平均一天不到兩件你看看下面的留言會怎麼告訴你"},{"start":5073.437,"end":5090.356,"text":"剛也已經其他委員講過了你跟電子煙應該要比喪屍煙彈更多然後呢喪屍煙彈查到的違法是你們的兩倍如果行政院我們辦一個這個成果發表會的話衛福部這樣子是很難看的"},{"start":5094.453,"end":5111.366,"text":"對,所以那個部長這邊也有指導我們在這個查緝的力道上面要再更加強但是因為我們跟這個法務部不一樣的是淹害防治它有一定的行政程序但我們已經知道要加快這個數字這個可能等一下有很多委員問也會在一個月內針對我們這個"},{"start":5113.948,"end":5114.649,"text":"提出檢討報告"},{"start":5144.889,"end":5160.08,"text":"這個網站已經被媒體披露了他這個網站已經一年多了如果你想要買安眠藥現在如果你買安眠藥可能醫師會管制他覺得你已經吃太多了不會再開了他只好找非法網站"},{"start":5160.74,"end":5172.909,"text":"查出來一開始是衛福部告訴大家說上網買賣問題大再下來是像官方網站他直接把這個stillnose.com的網址都已經註冊下來而且已經一年多了這個問題你們應該也都知道吧所以要怎麼解決"},{"start":5180.876,"end":5193.741,"text":"跟委員報告這個事情我們對這個Stenos這個藥品我想最初的時候是由這個網站它去做它其實不是原廠公司的"},{"start":5194.94,"end":5199.703,"text":"對,因為他是國外嘛,又回到跟之前一樣的問題啦,兒少性剝削一樣的問題啦。"},{"start":5214.674,"end":5231.287,"text":"報告委員後來我們有跟那個Google也有跟那個Microsoft去談這件事情那因為主要的原因是這些網站是在國外而且因為這兩家公平台都是在外面都是在國外那我們現在跟他的管道是這樣如果我們有查到的"},{"start":5232.628,"end":5253.729,"text":"我必須說您還蠻幸運的因為這個媒體披露他們把它買回來嘛結果分析了以後是褪黑技術如果是別的東西危害的毒品那真的就完蛋了這個我們現在還在跟台灣自己的網站我們現在只要有查到我們就會馬上請他下架"},{"start":5254.71,"end":5274.111,"text":"這邊也告訴你們除了這個史蒂諾斯他這個網站已經成立了一年多你們到現在還沒辦法把它關閉其他各種安眠藥網路上也都買得到還有包括比如說這個社會新聞常看到FM2阿等等的這些可能你們這個神醫會議一定要務必要好好的討論一下好嗎是"},{"start":5275.412,"end":5293.748,"text":"最後一個問題希望很快把它帶過但是非常的重要今年已經有兩位小學生一個小五一個小六自殺身亡這個是你們112年自殺防治中心的成果報告你看紅線是15到24歲"},{"start":5297.59,"end":5306.634,"text":"這個藍線是14歲以下這兩個曲線是爆炸性的成長通報的速度也是異常的快部長這部分你有掌握到嗎這個我們有瞭解到這種現象"},{"start":5314.656,"end":5322.945,"text":"好這邊再給你看另外一個圖比較遺憾的是你看到他通報日就是死亡日0到14歲是73.7%15到19歲是63.8%對比我們下面這些25到35歲之間的人"},{"start":5332.876,"end":5359.256,"text":"很難很難在通報前就被我們發現而且做介入好最後給你一個實質的建議這是賴清德競選總統的時候他曾經提出來的他說他希望可以年輕族群心理支持方案向下延伸到小學因為這個方案是你們部裡面滿意度極高的方案他希望可以往下延伸或者是甚至擴大等等的這個名團你知道是誰嗎"},{"start":5362.576,"end":5371.274,"text":"民團就是林月琴委員,剛剛的林月琴委員,所以你覺得這方面你有沒有辦法嚴你提出方案?"},{"start":5374.217,"end":5401.945,"text":"報告委員我們原來是15到30現在已經延伸到45那這個部分就由衛福部來主責那這個在健康台灣裡面也列為非常重要的一點那我們也會以教育部來推展SEL的一個小學就開始有一個更好的心理素質那有關於小學這個部分是教育部在主責我們會跟他來合作"},{"start":5402.739,"end":5410.351,"text":"來看看怎麼加強這個部分好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請邱政軍委員質詢"},{"start":5428.118,"end":5448.728,"text":"主席我們有請衛福部邱部長部長請還有法務部我們的郭司長還有刑事局警政監司長部長好委員長最近發生多起稀食依託民脂的事情我想大家都看到很多的新聞"},{"start":5449.708,"end":5471.187,"text":"那毒價的重大死亡、車禍、凸顯濫用的問題越來越嚴重那高檢署今天也發布毒情的警示凸顯本席在4月15的時候在這裡要求我們衛福部這個部長、薛部長將麻醉藥品、依托米子、獵味、管制藥品及毒品是非常重要的"},{"start":5472.372,"end":5497.891,"text":"因為這件事情在去年9月的時候就查獲有不肖的人士在販賣依托米子那一直到我4月15來提到5月9號我們才說要送成這個管制藥品委員會一直到6月13號我們才送成通過然後到8月15行政院才公告這個列為三級毒品這個過程將近一年的時間"},{"start":5499.412,"end":5510.013,"text":"我想這就是我們民進黨政府面對新興毒品的這個態度嗎我想請問部長這是我們政府面對毒品的這個新興毒品的態度嗎"},{"start":5511.072,"end":5529.997,"text":"我想政府一直都很重視到不管是藥品的管制或者是毒品的我們一定要等到就是說毒價撞死這個員警才會引起這個社會嘩然的時候才覺得這個很重要如果你們多一點警覺就可以早一點介入這個問題"},{"start":5531.317,"end":5556.563,"text":"毒品防治基金一年編列了6億8千多萬元你們對新興毒品這個狀況我覺得掌握的還速度真的非常的慢110年到113年我們政府投入了每年投入150億經費在新世代反毒策略未來4年還要投入150億結果我看到結果跟打詐一樣越打越毒"},{"start":5559.744,"end":5579.269,"text":"新興毒品又叫做新興影響精神物質是近年蓬勃發展的一個濫用的統稱販毒的人會找到藉口還沒被管制的藥還沒被定義的毒可能就是下一個變種出來的毒部長你認為呢?你覺得對嗎?你覺得我的看法對不對?"},{"start":5582.608,"end":5604.235,"text":"我同意那個委員的一個因為販毒集團把伊多米子比喻為平體版的海洛因意思就是說有海洛因的效果但是沒有海洛因的罪也比較便宜8月5日列為三級毒品以後你們認為這個狀況會減少嗎?"},{"start":5609.008,"end":5616.651,"text":"我相信我們不管是在衛福部在從因為我覺得對販毒的人來說有利可圖他就會繼續做而且他們知道被抓之後法官也不會信任"},{"start":5630.578,"end":5649.654,"text":"因為我們列入三級毒品對吃藥的奶來說它只要持有5公克以下最多就罰5萬元要5公克以上才有刑責那依照警方破獲的計算這個計算方式1.3公斤的伊多米子原料可以製成15000個煙彈"},{"start":5652.507,"end":5653.688,"text":"這個問題要不要解答?"},{"start":5667.41,"end":5693.812,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關於伊托米子要不要升級的部分升級到二級的一個部分那本部部長已經交代我們在禮拜一就已經發函給各機關在收集資料預計準備審理是不是要把它對啦這個就跟K他命一樣啦這個就是你看到前面的K他命就一樣你一直把它列在三級毒品他沒有辦法沒有到二級毒品他就不會減少而且你們知道嗎我們"},{"start":5695.273,"end":5705.138,"text":"三四級毒品我們目前使用就是破獲最高的年齡層都是在青少年身上對不對我這個數據沒有錯吧沒有錯"},{"start":5708.037,"end":5727.202,"text":"對,所以呢,我們的年輕人是我們國家未來的動糧支柱,也是每一個家庭的重心。我覺得政府應該要在這個地方更加把勁,更能把這個問題盡快來解決。我不曉得我們在列為二級毒品、一級毒品,或者是三級毒品,你們的標準在哪裡?"},{"start":5728.744,"end":5753.553,"text":"根委員報告這個標準就是包括有是不是有成癮性、有氾濫性、對社會危害性這個三個要件由毒品審議委員那你們會不會覺得太慢因為我們三個月開一次如果有必要我們就會加開這個會議我覺得我們的程序太冗長你知道嗎因為毒品毒品的東西這種新興毒品它只要換個名稱它就可以上來我們怎麼追"},{"start":5755.605,"end":5775.925,"text":"一定要等到社會案件發生的時候,我們才來檢討,是不是一切都太慢?根委員報告,我們有兩個預警的機制,一個預警的機制就是跨國比較,一個預警的機制是在我們臺高檢有一個預警的平台,只要我發現衛內館的先進演講所以你們各跨部會,你們都會有做橫向的聯繫?有橫向聯繫,是是怎麼聯繫?"},{"start":5778.347,"end":5794.206,"text":"因為我們臺高檢署有一個緝毒小組緝毒督導小組這個他就有固定的開會在各地檢署有一個執行緝毒執行小組每季開支會這個包括社政、衛政以及這個教育部"},{"start":5794.446,"end":5794.626,"text":"可以給我嗎?"},{"start":5817.064,"end":5837.647,"text":"根委員報告可不可以給我們一個月時間,因為可以他...你們昨天的那個獨審會的會議紀錄,那個叫投票紀錄我要的是每一個獨審會審查委員的一個意見,他們的意見是什麼?根委員報告,那個審查意見涉及到每個獨...那個委員的一個意見發表,跟他專業的陳述,所以"},{"start":5838.328,"end":5847.603,"text":"在整個會議記錄可能比較不方便提供給你不需要寫他的名字我只要知道原因"},{"start":5849.107,"end":5867.929,"text":"可以嗎?原因可以吧?我們回去整理之後盡可能的...因為我現在發現,現在伊多米子它幾乎都是跟我們的電子煙綁在一起對不對?那電子煙變成它的一個載具,這沒錯吧?那以後你查緝怎麼查緝?"},{"start":5869.366,"end":5893.257,"text":"你K他命他在吸食K煙的時候是會有味道而且旁邊的人都會知道那你這個東西是沒有味道你到時候查緝怎麼辦這不像酒駕你吹一下他就可以有數據啊你未來要怎麼處理根本報告一通名指有沒有味道我不是前線的第一線查緝認為都不清楚我不曉得警政署這邊有關於"},{"start":5898.72,"end":5926.586,"text":"有嗎?警政署報告有關警政署在查緝伊托米子部分我們分有兩大策略第一個是我們從源頭那我們看這個伊托米子現在看起來我們國內是沒有製造的查緝紀錄所以我們看到我們刑事局有查獲的案件網站上都有教學這個是源頭第二個是需求面"},{"start":5927.066,"end":5953.325,"text":"那需求面的話我們會對於吸食跟教育的場所我們會加強傾收跟查緝那在網路上現在最廣泛的是在網路上去做教育那這個部分我們警政署都列入重點的一個查緝所以我們在今年的10月份1號到14號有做一個主題是系統性的以及全國性的查緝也查緝了很多場那我們的那個保治大隊也查獲了很多那個電子煙彈以上報告"},{"start":5955.643,"end":5980.745,"text":"對啦 去年我看到我們各縣市查到50萬件那僅開罰1247件承擔數是非常的低啦而公然吸食電子煙我也很少看到說有取締的因為它可能隱藏在這裡面我們根本沒有發現因為教育部我們對校園這個校園毒品防制一直提不出有效的一個改善對策現在衣托米子又來了"},{"start":5981.866,"end":6008.533,"text":"那電子煙又變成一個載具的時候,煙商卻邀請我們的學生在校園下尋找下線,賺取零用錢。這些都是校園這個防治的這個防毒的一個破口。我想請問教育部,你在這邊這個部分,你們除了檢討村會專案之外,針對最新的依托米子及電子煙入侵校園的校園學生成為下線的這個新的防治措施是什麼?"},{"start":6009.554,"end":6018.691,"text":"跟委員報告我們最重要是要幫助我們的教職員工理解認識電子煙跟這個他的煙彈的這個辨識以及看得出來嗎"},{"start":6020.219,"end":6049.859,"text":"如果他有如果拿出來可能會有學生檢舉那是檢舉嗎?你這樣看到他你知道他是有意含依託名詞嗎?那怎麼分辨?那個他需要送檢驗才能知道對啊所以所以你們你們這個我覺得這個速度都太慢了政府應該拿出一套有效的方法讓第一線的執行的執行的員警再加上我們學校的這些教職員他能夠很容易的去分辨這種東西那其實很好分辨啊為什麼因為現在你煙電子煙就是違法"},{"start":6050.399,"end":6064.31,"text":"是對不對你就直接處理啦是要等到什麼時候呢是對不對先處理再說啊可以直接提報這個衛生黨部長好啦教育部要加油啦好不好我希望你們動作積極一點是謝謝那我也希望說我們我們"},{"start":6066.812,"end":6094.131,"text":"這些新興的毒品的分級分類一定要落實而且速度要加快不然的話我講真的新的毒品影響的就是青少年它對國家的危害是真的是非常的大我請法務部還有我們警政署還有我們衛福部這邊一起大家一起努力好不好好謝謝謝謝邱委員還有部長來請邱委員來代理主席"},{"start":6095.285,"end":6120.76,"text":"那我這裡先告 王振旭委員發言完畢 後我們休息10分鐘接下來邀請我們廖偉祥委員謝謝主席 有請我們部長"},{"start":6126.946,"end":6141.6,"text":"委員好部長你好今天討論這個議題是非常嚴重的一個議題那自我們《煙害防治法》112年的3月22日開始公告實施全面禁止電子煙至今也超過一年半"},{"start":6142.841,"end":6161.35,"text":"但是我們可以在大街小巷其實可以看到很多民眾或者是各個地方甚至校園都可以看到這個吸食電子煙的狀況而且電子煙的載具跟它那個煙油是可以輕易購買取得那我想執法不力是最大的一個原因之一"},{"start":6162.731,"end":6171.16,"text":"衛福部資料顯示,從今年9月中央及地方衛生局依《煙害防治法》裁罰639件電子煙違規案件,平均一天不到2件,今年2月至4月甚至只有4件"},{"start":6178.968,"end":6206.098,"text":"那7月7到9月的暑假大概是294件那反觀我們全國的警方7月到9月同一期間查獲喪屍煙油違法案件是681件為衛福部的2.3倍我想要請問部長這樣的數字是不是反映衛福部對於非法新興煙品的怠惰跟失職因為這個數據差太多因為我們衛福部是用安海黃之華來"},{"start":6208.012,"end":6214.117,"text":"這部分你們有什麼辦法可以加強執法的部分因為這個數字真的差太多光喪失煙油在警察的這個同一期間7到9月2個月就是690幾件"},{"start":6235.014,"end":6262.414,"text":"對 跟委員報告其實我們除了實際開立處分書之外我們的這個查緝的力道就是包括稽查的這個案件書也到高達23萬件次當然就如部長所說的查緝如果違法的話他必須依照煙害防治法的行政程序來完成好 我跟你說啦這個在國建署的調查反正國中生還有跟高中職生的電子煙使用率"},{"start":6263.214,"end":6287.349,"text":"分別是從2018年的1.9%與3.4%到2021年上升到3.9%跟8.8%的2021年到現在2024年我想最新的數據只會多不會少所以代表這個執法的結果論來看就是有問題就是有問題這不然怎麼可能比例越來越高呢這個電子煙的使用比例這麼高"},{"start":6288.834,"end":6316.753,"text":"我希望你們可以思考一下到底應該要怎麼樣把這件事情讓它的這個比率不要再持續的升高甚至要下降再來電子煙最可怕的危害是裡面不知道加了什麼東西嘛對不對我想你們也很頭痛但裡面到底加了什麼東西那刑事局的統計警方今年1月至8月查獲的電子煙油案是1415件那送檢吶吶含這個大麻的部分大概是53%喵喵卡西桶是28%"},{"start":6318.599,"end":6334.689,"text":"上司菸油依托米子6.1%我想剛剛很多人問了所以這6.1%剛剛在短短的7到9月就抓了這麼多代表有非常多的黑素在外面亂竄還有安非他命0.6%那混分部分混合兩種以上毒品"},{"start":6335.769,"end":6360.97,"text":"也就是說電子煙的載具實際上就是載具它已經成為了吸食毒品的工具那結合將近10%的高中生電子煙的吸食率毒品進入校園的情況是非常非常的嚴重我想要請問一下因為我看到很多大家都在講電子煙可能在講那煙油煙彈我想問一下載具的部分有哪一個單位管理載具的部分是衛福部管嗎"},{"start":6362.643,"end":6384.324,"text":"採聚是衛福部管嗎?燕子煙是我們管理採聚,它下面的採聚,所以你們整個這樣管起來都是屬於你們?對,燕子煙是我們管理都是屬於你們管理嗎?但是如果採聚裡面含有其他的物質,比如說毒品的話,就會依毒品防治條例來做管理好,所以基本上採聚是你們管理,是包含那個煙油也都是你們管嗎?就是整支對不對?都是你們管?燕子煙是我們管"},{"start":6385.344,"end":6407.103,"text":"電子煙是包含載具加上煙油還是你是分開來是合在一起合在一起那如果拆開來都算是你的嘛對不對就是不管是載具或是跟委員報告如果這個煙彈本身是含有其他物質那就有其他的法律來協同管沒關係但我只是想要說那誰要負責去把這件事情管控好就是說不會有這麼多非法的電子煙的載具"},{"start":6409.125,"end":6436.472,"text":"因為現在情況是這樣加熱煙是加強管制但是不禁止那電子煙是完全禁止對不對但現在問題就是兩者外型也很相似嘛你可以看一下現在甚至有這種那你要怎麼算這種就是一方面是加熱煙後面可以抽電子煙那這個你有辦法你怎麼管理目前為止是全禁包括加熱煙跟電子煙都是全禁加熱煙就是不是加強管制"},{"start":6437.592,"end":6457.163,"text":"現在還沒有任何一個品牌通過所以現在目前市面上加熱力更電所以照理說你全部看到全部都應該要禁止嘛對不對可是現在的比例就是很糟糕啊對不對所以我想問說那未來未來如果這兩個混在一起你要怎麼去把它分辨出來我們會再瞭解清楚瞭解清楚它混在一起使用的一個狀態"},{"start":6465.987,"end":6487.714,"text":"所以你們現在有掌握這個狀態嗎?我們目前知道是有混用但是因為它都是全面禁止兩種煙品都是全面禁止的所以我們是全面查緝的這部長但是現在情況不是將加熱煙視為你們想要視為是3C然後衛福部沒有什麼想要管理嗎?你們把加熱煙變成視為3C產品"},{"start":6489.375,"end":6511.111,"text":"委員其實加熱煙是因為它的煙草柱本身是煙草所以我們納入《煙害防治法》來管轄那按照我們的法裡面的部分它必須經過我們健康風險評估後才能夠上市所以截至目前為止沒有任何一家 我想要問那之前有你們有在說你們覺得加熱煙載具視為3C這件事情"},{"start":6513.468,"end":6524.033,"text":"加熱煙的載具是經濟部管轄我們管轄上面的那個煙草柱對那你現在就是會變成是你模糊不清你剛剛說加熱煙這些也算是那你現在加熱煙載具又算是經濟部管轄"},{"start":6526.701,"end":6543.108,"text":"我們會跟經濟部管轄加熱菸的載具所以我的問題就點出這個嘛就是到底你剛一下子說這個管那個管然後不同部好像變成是到底是誰誰要負這個權責所以導致你現在很難你剛自己又露出來又說這個是經濟部你剛又說全部是你管"},{"start":6548.21,"end":6576.004,"text":"這是有電子煙跟加熱煙兩種所以我要提醒部長就是現在網路就是很氾濫你可以否認嗎?現在氾濫這件事情你可以否認嗎?不能嘛,對不對?到處都是買得到啊所以你看這PTT上面喔甚至有什麼電子的品牌叫做自己叫Canty啊Vape電子煙專門店啊煙導賞啊到處買得到甚至透過便利商店還可以在這個交貨付款啊"},{"start":6576.804,"end":6601.282,"text":"所以我想要問你們這個部分包含剛剛這個模糊不清的這個權責你們到底可不可以統一要統一的去處理這件事情因為你現在連你自己的報告上面我覺得很可笑是這樣子啊你的今天這份報告你們說中央與地方透過加強茶氣、電子煙等類煙品予以重罰將可避免電子煙彈電子煙彈這個成為毒品載具你寫出這句話"},{"start":6607.089,"end":6619.724,"text":"結論是這樣嗎?對不對?所以你現在這樣笑我不懂你的笑是什麼意思啊就是你寫出來是你們說你們現在加強然後透過中央地方可以避免可是結果就不是這樣啊"},{"start":6621.385,"end":6643.21,"text":"所以這部分我真的是希望部長請加油你們可不可以給本席或是給委員會一個報告就是說究竟你們這個權責應該怎麼分因為你現在講出來都是空話你並沒有結論並不是這樣結果並不是這樣現在就是事實上在校園裡面就是非常多的這種電子煙品 2021年8.8%現在多少%"},{"start":6647.011,"end":6670.471,"text":"這個是很誇張的事情我想這個必須要我們一起努力跨部會來努力所以你不能說只有跨部會努力這個部分到底誰要到時候你們要整合起來剛剛報告這個部分是我們站在煙害防治法方面我們會中央地方要合作應該是可以減少這樣的一個電子M的使用那當然這個剛剛也有提到校園或者是"},{"start":6672.132,"end":6696.263,"text":"所以我意思是這個東西到底推來推去就會有問題啊所以你到底怎麼跨部會整合真的是可以有一個強而有力的執法這個是重要的事情我們必須要保護我們尤其是兒少的一個健康我想這是國人非常擔心的事情這個一定我們絕對不會推卸任何責任一定是全力來跟各部會全力來努力"},{"start":6696.843,"end":6702.669,"text":"請教部長現在各種醫事機構在經營上是不是比較困難?因為本席從9月底到現在不斷接獲醫藥相關的團體陳情這個電費調漲的事宜那我其實上次也跟你問過跟你請託過製藥產業跟藥局的電價是不是可以予以動長或見面?"},{"start":6718.945,"end":6733.159,"text":"那我今天要再針對這些所有的醫事機構包含這個諮商所、物療所跟驗光所也就是行業類別是869的各類的醫事機構跟你請託我當初也拜託你去跟經濟部行政院反映棟長店家"},{"start":6734.42,"end":6752.783,"text":"部長我想政府現在正在推動這個健康台灣的政策要有健康台灣就要有完整的醫療的照護體系那各個醫事機構無論是醫院或是藥局或是社區等等都是這個都在社區的第一線我想他們就是健康台灣的根基不是嗎"},{"start":6753.772,"end":6773.668,"text":"那現在醫療機構大部分受限於健保給付所以就是各類的醫事服務的健保給付如果沒有增加物價通膨、電費高漲的情況之下部長你覺得這樣子健康台灣的根基這個各類的各類的這種醫療機構、醫師機構會不會有所影響會不會也有可能影響到人民就醫的這個的品質或成本"},{"start":6774.308,"end":6783.292,"text":"報告委員謝謝您為議院跟藥局的爭取那這個部分都已經是動長了我知道這是過去發生的事情所以我剛剛說這件事情各個其他的醫師類別我們"},{"start":6789.495,"end":6811.308,"text":"都會非常尊重而且來希望我們也希望他把他們對但是其實過去你們一直掛16萬然後我們會轉給經濟部但是絕對沒有說因為您寫的說衛福部沒找到經濟部公司因為經濟部長是啊我那天就問他經濟部長我就問他說欸那個我們的衛福部長到底有沒有來找你他支支吾吾不敢講啊"},{"start":6812.228,"end":6813.529,"text":"因為那天我去問他喔,他跟我說你沒有找他嘛"},{"start":6836.028,"end":6861.765,"text":"後續的部分我們已經轉給經濟部就是說後續那個您剛剛講的其他的議事相關的我們已經把那個陳千涵也要給經濟部那經濟部會去請審議方面說真的我是覺得除了這個轉涵之外你想我想您還可以再多做一些努力畢竟你是衛福部長你可以真的瞭解這些狀況請你也可以多努力一點不是只是我轉過去而已你又不是總機對不對"},{"start":6863.266,"end":6880.557,"text":"我會跟那個行業講說明說大概他可以這樣怎麼樣去論述會比較對所以我希望你不要成為一個總機部長好不好你不要轉過去就好這些人一直不斷的在承受這些狀況我們會給他專列的指導好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝廖偉強委員接下來我們請蘇清泉委員"},{"start":6892.83,"end":6893.37,"text":"什麼叫做一二級毒品是什麼"},{"start":6917.515,"end":6938.521,"text":"什麼叫三四級毒品?說不說得清楚?那一二級毒品它抓的力道跟三四級毒品抓的力道有沒有不一樣?跟委員報告這個一二三四級毒品的一個分類就是依照剛剛跟委員報告的依照它的成癮性氾濫性"},{"start":6939.961,"end":6964.326,"text":"那個以及對社會危害性這三大要件來做判斷然後經過這個我們法務部跟衛生部成立的毒品審議委員會的委員審議通過把它列為哪一個級、哪一個等級的毒品所以我們在說的海洛因、鴉片這都是一二級毒品嗎?那是第一級毒品那我們"},{"start":6966.226,"end":6987.059,"text":"三、四級毒品它的取締的力道就比較不要嗎因為三、四級毒品的話適用都是在行政法裡面那如果持有部分是要達到一定的量才會刑訴處罰所以這個伊多米子就是Adrominate"},{"start":6988.259,"end":7011.108,"text":"這個是這個是我跟我們麻醉科請教我昨天還特別跟他請教齁他那個就是要麻醉的induction的藥而已嘛跟Propofol差不多嘛那他們認為Propofol比這個還好用欸那怎麼這個東西是怎麼來的現在醫院都不再用這種藥了吧不再用這種藥阿台灣還有在生產嗎"},{"start":7017.276,"end":7035.43,"text":"報告委員現在在全臺灣的使用量大概一萬支一年一萬支對而且都是輸入的當然它是因為是自費所以這個藥本自費的嘛健保不幾戶對健保沒有幾戶婆婆婆有幾戶吧"},{"start":7037.311,"end":7059.331,"text":"因為這個報告委員因為這個在以前在這個案子發生之前其實這個藥是沒有列管的他不是管制藥品所以你現在這樣四級變三級我覺得那個根本沒什麼意義啊這個藥從哪裡來是國外進來的嗎幾百公斤多少這是外地來的"},{"start":7062.138,"end":7069.44,"text":"警政署那是委託?警政署這麼多單位在灌,灌到未來什麼都沒在灌嗎?多頭馬車嘛,這個根本是不搞啊"},{"start":7078.843,"end":7096.577,"text":"報告委員 這個我們現在在食藥署的收視上他的原料我們是管他在藥品上那他如果沒有拿到藥品許可證他沒有許可進來的他一律都是當作毒品所以是用燒出一百還是枉過一百也不知道"},{"start":7098.581,"end":7099.582,"text":"所以都是走私漁船什麼丟包進來的?"},{"start":7121.59,"end":7141.781,"text":"我們東港外海每天都很忙碌我都不曉得要丟什麼那個通常三班那組每天都在載我都不知道在載什麼所以這個藥是要用IV打混到食物裡面有效嗎 署長"},{"start":7149.73,"end":7165.945,"text":"報告委員 據我們了解伊兔米子加災菸油最早是在中國大陸他們開始有在使用他們才會有這個東西我們當時知道的情形其實我們有 署理有去查過這個要在112年以前"},{"start":7168.047,"end":7168.187,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":7189.306,"end":7189.647,"text":"這個沒辦法回答捏齁"},{"start":7209.028,"end":7232.653,"text":"這個unlabel不是在醫藥上正常的使用那這個跟K他們、安威他們就用那個冷氣口然後給他用煙燻的讓小孩子進去到網咖就很爽很嗨是一樣的意思嘛所以小孩子一天到晚泡網咖就是他用在出風口冷氣出風口一整塊用噴的"},{"start":7234.725,"end":7240.167,"text":"那這個藥是不是將來網咖也會這樣出現?這個都要注意捏我們在哈爾法針對這個藥理 藥理作用法務部、警政署都要注意這個那你如果抓到 那現在這個東西"},{"start":7258.581,"end":7275.126,"text":"伊東米子你是用驗尿還是抽血?剛剛在講那個Pest不準什麼光線啊什麼是用Gmask做還是用快篩?快篩是用尿液還是尿液嗎?用什麼單位?你也不知道?第一線那個KID是用"},{"start":7284.622,"end":7295.959,"text":"你們是用尿液還是用尿液?尿液尿液尿液喔?所以就叫一通就解尿然後就直接用快篩這樣子"},{"start":7297.575,"end":7321.381,"text":"報告委員那我們警方是一個執法單位所以他要有合法我們在比如說我們從他的這一個違價的行為當中攔下來合法攔查之後有看到他有毒品那我們就進入刑事訴訟的這個程序可以合法的逮捕我們才會進行後續的尿液或是甚至申請鑑定許可的血液這是一個程序"},{"start":7321.932,"end":7329.899,"text":"所以你那個KIT是驗胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺胺"},{"start":7349.075,"end":7349.296,"text":"已經有採過這一些快篩試劑"},{"start":7355.205,"end":7379.838,"text":"所以是警政署採購快篩試劑快篩試劑進來的核准是食藥署?這樣嗎?沒有?報告委員因為它不是醫療器材所以不是有我們核准要抓到即使有比得很痛苦顏色會有光線的問題然後出來是有positive又怎麼樣?行政罰款?"},{"start":7381.061,"end":7387.803,"text":"所以你把它列成3、4級毒品根本是毫無意義啊對於打壓這個保定"},{"start":7391.737,"end":7410.452,"text":"那個已經在研議了對,跟委員報告如果是製造、運輸、販賣是5年以上有期徒刑剛剛委員提到的施用目前是行政處分而已啦對啊,那行政處分根本沒有賀止作用啊跟那個委員報告我們已經在準備研議是不是要把它升級"},{"start":7412.679,"end":7429.794,"text":"那升到一二級是有困難嗎?如果升到一二級那還得了那所有的什麼什麼一些什麼命的全部都打入那你們不是忙死了嗎?根本報告這個要經過毒品審議委員會的審議所以很難?不是很難要資料"},{"start":7431.367,"end":7458.478,"text":"讓這個委員審理完了之後看能不能贊成要不要把他升級所以部長伊東米子本來沒在這三四級都不是現在把他拉到第四現在把他提升到第三對不對還沒有第三還沒有過第四第四是六月過了那那個毒品這邊是第三這樣你們怎麼好那這樣有沒有效果所以要加快腳步啊然後這個"},{"start":7460.74,"end":7489.181,"text":"緊接著跟虐童什麼都有相關他就說他疏疏的、吃汁的、就氣笑、怕孩子、孩子怕怕死現在氣到法官、法官、我們有法官我們那個、那個市委員、刑事廳的法官有法官就像這樣說他意識混亂所以怕死孩子,這樣不是死刑虐死的也沒事每一件都匯除死刑每一件都撤銷"},{"start":7491.335,"end":7496.418,"text":"那這樣是一連串的惡性循環你們怎麼辦"},{"start":7505.922,"end":7527.562,"text":"跟委員報告,法院這邊其實如同我們今天所說的書面報告在108到12年已經判決關於販賣毒品有罪次數高達88,830罪次所以其實已經有在做依法審判、依法處理"},{"start":7529.844,"end":7530.944,"text":"關於個案我們是尊重個案法官的審理"},{"start":7558.803,"end":7572.358,"text":"那這個最後啦齁你禁止加味煙然後呢抽煙人口轉如加味毒品不定這樣會不會啊你的煙煎也沒有啊煙水也減少這樣要怎麼鋪你的長照"},{"start":7578.122,"end":7581.727,"text":"世界衛生組織有特別呼籲各國的政策制定者應該禁止在煙品中添加"},{"start":7598.946,"end":7625.254,"text":"會引誘會增加這個吸入的添加物包括這個風味的添加物等等所以我們在新的氧化防治法中就把這個添加物的這個禁用添加物把它列入我的母法那至於要禁用的這個是用風味歐盟跟美國確實是用風味可是加拿大跟巴西他們的立法中是用副表表列的方式因為副表表列"},{"start":7625.734,"end":7653.513,"text":"那你們27種都不能加你們是怎麼我們大概是參考因為我們開了5次的國際會議來瞭解各國的執行方式所以大概是參考加拿大的做法他是正面表列是哪一些不能添加未來因為這個有正面表列我們在依法管理跟採取上面會比較有依據那當然這件事情還在預告結束之後有13000多則我們正在收納意見所以你這個是怎麼去盤查"},{"start":7655.254,"end":7677.079,"text":"你說我正面表列27項都不能加,結果呢?他加了,阿你又怎麼樣?你有辦法做differential嗎?就是現在就是要再跟加拿大合作這個部分,來看看怎麼樣做這個檢驗跟檢驗我是怕轉入加惠毒品要死啊,你煙煙如果蓋不住,煙水如果蓋不住就一年三八月了"},{"start":7678.519,"end":7705.914,"text":"阿所以 長照基金就沒了這個是牽扯的所以這理由一定要加強啦好不好謝謝大家啦 大家都起來聽聽都阿婆阿婆人家在負主責啊應該是你要法務部或者是你衛福部來做牽頭大家處一個任務編處這樣才有辦法不然各行其事有在報部會的努力聯席的努力謝謝好 謝委 謝謝召委"},{"start":7706.906,"end":7726.491,"text":"好,謝謝蘇清泉委員接下來我們請王振旭委員好,非常感謝主席我們也請邱部長"},{"start":7733.314,"end":7737.818,"text":"法制國家有一定的流程要去檢討、要去討論、要去面對很多很多的困難"},{"start":7749.729,"end":7760.882,"text":"依照我們今天的主題似乎必須要再加把勁同時所有的主管機關也必須要有所應應例如說可能要做一個什麼快速打擊部隊之類的針對"},{"start":7764.787,"end":7766.128,"text":"主委院長政府宣誓要積極打擊毒品"},{"start":7793.649,"end":7810.336,"text":"要落實這個無毒家園的願請所以在4年裡面預計要編列150億來持續推動第三期的這個新世代的緩毒策略來讓這個新興毒品的氾濫可以得到有效的控制"},{"start":7810.996,"end":7836.75,"text":"那其中有一個重要的部分就是要做一些尿液的檢測檢查那剛剛有很多委員都說你了解說你夜間突然抓到一個疑似犯的時候你怎麼去判斷他是不是真的使用到了這個的確是有他執行上必須要在精進的地方那到今年7月為止已經有2.8件以上的這些檢查檢驗已經超過"},{"start":7838.131,"end":7838.211,"text":"主席"},{"start":7858.536,"end":7878.622,"text":"除了量以外這個值要怎麼做才會方便又能夠達到實際上的成效那這部分不知道部長目前有沒有什麼樣的因應作為我想衛福部站在專業的立場針對各種藥物的一個藥性它的影響各方面都會提供專業的一個"},{"start":7881.103,"end":7910.106,"text":"建議給相關的一個部會包括法務部、內政部、證書等等的大家共同有一個依據來分析來想辦法來實踐我們一個新世代的一個環圖的一個計畫那自己說這個量的夠不夠是不是法務部方面有沒有要那個再來說明一下"},{"start":7914.509,"end":7915.371,"text":"王委員的意思是"},{"start":7918.789,"end":7946.488,"text":"我們第三期的工作重點我們可以看到在持續全國尿液的廣篩檢驗量能第二期是14萬件第三期的目標值是21.5萬件最右下角的地方法務部的長官也有提到這其實是由法務部購入的你們在編的時候有沒有針對於再過來的變化有哪一些的預期性的因應"},{"start":7948.33,"end":7962.767,"text":"跟委員報告,法務部主責的部分是緝毒的策略,查緝的緝毒策略那有關於煙毒的部分,煙毒的部分不是本部的主責的部分,煙毒的部分應該是"},{"start":7971.465,"end":7980.116,"text":"您剛問的事實上他在尿液檢驗方面事實上這個尿液驗毒的其實不是衛福部的職"},{"start":7981.598,"end":7981.678,"text":"主席"},{"start":7999.324,"end":8011.777,"text":"苗葉認證的機構可以執行它的檢查其中15家科它可以執行新興毒品你的尿液檢查當然科檢查項目有44項其中擁有36項是屬於新興毒品"},{"start":8012.523,"end":8037.092,"text":"那這20家的檢驗的結果那因為是食藥署認證的所以我們有規定他們在檢驗後的結果會給一定要報到食藥署那食藥署會把統計資料就是到底有多少的量會公告在食藥署的網站那因為這個是民間的實驗室所以他的大概的量大概是有"},{"start":8038.132,"end":8056.967,"text":"是因為靠檢證署委託去檢驗他們的所以到底他的量能會需要多少這個食藥署手上現在是沒有資料所以除了食藥署負責後面的這些處理以外那相關單位應該是要由誰來進行這方面的盤查呢"},{"start":8059.967,"end":8084.735,"text":"這不知道什麼人可以說明一下我想剛剛食藥史有報告齁我們是認證齁我們去那個辦理濫用藥物的一個飲料液檢查實驗室的認證齁那他的一個統計的資料也都由食藥史來官網來公布各界來參考齁那個應該這個部分是至於那個檢驗"},{"start":8090.524,"end":8117.819,"text":"機構這個部分是由內政部的警政署來委託檢驗標案來處理的所以是不是請部長這邊再根據這個區域我們來瞭解一下那邊的一個量的一個那一塊看會不會有一個初步的報告沒問題沒問題我們都是跨部會一起在努力的再來就是這個這個案件是什麼應該是我們會請警政署去盤整跟提出來好"},{"start":8118.559,"end":8145.129,"text":"再過來剛剛有提到很多加速新興毒品認定期程嘛因為我們知道說這個去年9月這個一坨米紙就已經造成很大的衝擊跟困擾那目前我們知道就是每三個月定期檢討這真的是實際上太不符合現在的需要那什麼時候會進行或召開臨時會議或者是根據這個毒品危害防治條例過來因應"},{"start":8146.65,"end":8167.385,"text":"除了說臨時開會以外那還有沒有其他的一些因應措施什麼情形下會臨時開會跟委員報告我們那個定期是每3個月開一次會那如果有必要的時候就會召開那我們9月份才剛開完獨省會獨省會即使已經有"},{"start":8168.726,"end":8193.026,"text":"有關於這個在國內還沒有出現但是在聯合國的這個毒品以及犯罪防治辦公室裡面有列了一項我們就把它列為二級毒品另外也列了兩個先驅顏料作為四級的這個先驅的毒品那剛委員提到的就是說伊東米子的部分我們已經在禮拜一級已經發案在收集資料"},{"start":8194.227,"end":8214.404,"text":"我們預計在下個月收集完了之後預計在下個月的月底或者12月初就會召開這個毒品審議委員會來給這個毒品審議委員的委員來做一個參考是不是要把那個伊通鼻子把它升級到二級毒品以上報告"},{"start":8214.784,"end":8231.284,"text":"好 謝謝希望能夠越確快越好那另外就是說這個毒品的部分是由毒品危害防治條例來制定那事實上行政院也會根據這個刑法第185之3公告毒品的項目這兩項到底有連結嗎"},{"start":8234.509,"end":8256.528,"text":"會不會說我這邊這個毒品原來防治條例公布的內容跟這個行政院針對刑法1853公告的毒品項目有那些不一致造成在執法上的一些困境跟委員報告有關於這個毒價的185條之3的第三項就是尿液跟血液所含的毒品有一定的預值就會構成185條之3的第三項的罪者的話"},{"start":8262.611,"end":8267.907,"text":"其實前提就是要衛福部的食藥署要公告那一個毒品的欲值"},{"start":8268.993,"end":8292.802,"text":"一直達到那個意旨就會直接過成這個罪名那在12月去年的12月其實這個衛部已經公告了我記得是38項的這個毒品意旨的一個公告那有關伊東米子的部分我們已經也拜託這個食藥署這一部分能夠盡快的把這個檢驗的意旨把它訂出來"},{"start":8293.562,"end":8312.562,"text":"我們就可以升級之後就可以用這個即便沒升級啦就是一直公告了之後就可以試用185-3的這個第三款的規定來加以處罰在還沒有一直沒公告之前我們可以用第四款的一個規定但是要證明他有私用毒品"},{"start":8312.978,"end":8313.238,"text":"最後跟部長討論"},{"start":8330.654,"end":8349.24,"text":"媽媽的子女造成了困難或困擾因為剛剛我稍微有提到這些使用毒品的家長當他尤其是媽媽小孩子出生的時候造成的這些影響因為臺灣少子化這麼嚴重老家的毒癮媽媽"},{"start":8350.64,"end":8376.244,"text":"有剩下這個小朋友來的話,我想這個困境就會更高因為依據我們現在所知道的這個死亡率,如果是父母有一方使用鴉片的話,成癮是2.3倍的死亡率那如果媽媽本身是鴉片要劣的,成癮者是3.9倍這是要作謝的地方那針對這個毒癮媽媽未來在做相關的這些產檢檢查,或者是所需要的這些相關的服務部分"},{"start":8377.304,"end":8399.449,"text":"這邊也期待部長能夠多關心也讓全臺灣如果有因為這個毒品越來越造成民眾影響的過程當中如何能夠同時去保護下一代這個要麻煩博定委員會責成毒防中心來強化懷孕要引護你特殊需求的照顧還有他的家庭的需求的評估"},{"start":8400.729,"end":8402.393,"text":"好,謝謝王委員、謝謝部長,休息10分鐘"},{"start":8454.602,"end":8454.622,"text":"這有電嗎?兩個"},{"start":9030.421,"end":9034.944,"text":"好,那我們繼續開會。我們接續請劉建國委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。有請部長。國健署應該可以一起上來吧。"},{"start":9061.634,"end":9075.106,"text":"98年我們通過這個煙害防治法的修正以後最主要還是要治理青少年的煙害防治那這幾年我們確實也看到這個青少年的使用傳統煙品的比例有所降低"},{"start":9076.394,"end":9102.195,"text":"但是根據國健署的統計我們未滿18歲的青少年使用新興煙品的比例正在逐年上升部長可以看這個資料其實110年那初估有7.9萬的未成年青少年正在使用電子煙資料顯示108年使用電子煙佔高中生的約5.6%但是到了110年卻暴增到8.8%"},{"start":9106.608,"end":9118.031,"text":"這下一張圖表應該就顯示出來齁然後因為我們以前是每年都公布啦到108的時候就變成兩年公布一次所以我明明看到109108是5.6那114年就變成到這個8.8%齁這個數據應該部長可以看得清楚嘛那我這個新的煙害防治法的上路是在去年"},{"start":9133.393,"end":9148.087,"text":"到現在我們全面已經來禁止這個電子煙了及電子煙有的製造還有輸入、販賣、供應等等等這段時間那青少年使用電子煙的比例是上升還是下降?部長知道嗎?"},{"start":9150.677,"end":9153.938,"text":"可不可以請健康署看看有沒有做調查"},{"start":9168.904,"end":9180.932,"text":"報告委員112年我們有針對這個國高中生使用的這個部分有做調查那現在正在做全數的一個處理應該很快的時間就會公佈這個112年使用狀況"},{"start":9184.801,"end":9209.617,"text":"所以簡單說就是112年到現在為止都還沒有正確的數據可以給部長可以給委員會可以給社會大眾做參考初步的數據因為還在最後的校準那就我之前看到在上個禮拜我們看到的數據應該還沒有經過校準所以我比較保守的說那目前看起來的增加的趨勢沒有我們想像中的那麼快速"},{"start":9211.505,"end":9227.696,"text":"沒有我們想像中我們是指你跟我還是你跟部長不是因為跟我原報告其實電子煙這個問題確實很嚴重我舉例來講在澳洲你就講得很嚴重了為什麼你還講說沒有我們想像中我們是指我們是指誰"},{"start":9228.596,"end":9246.14,"text":"抱歉委員因為在澳洲現在已經113塊到年底了嘛對不對那你為什麼112年而且你們是兩年嘛對108年之後你就改為兩年來公告一次嘛公布一次嘛因為跟國人吸煙調查是用間隔年來做是啊是啊間隔年沒有錯啊但是為什麼到現在112年年底"},{"start":9249.659,"end":9265.984,"text":"的資料沒辦法顯示出來因為主要是我們這個的調查是跟美國CDC合作所以在三四月的時候美國CDC在那個整個加權上面有一些調整所以我們在配合這個調整的權數希望更準確的數字可以提供各界做參考三四月配合到現在"},{"start":9271.772,"end":9301.49,"text":"你的30月是112年30月還是112年?今年今年30月那到現在已經也所以我們即將要公告這個好,你的即將公告是什麼時候?大約應該可以在11月公告11月公告好,謝謝接下來部長你看這兩則新聞這景荒坡最大的電子煙工廠查購90萬的這個煙彈那市值破億那另外一個是高雄小黃司機大汪浪警檢來驗電子煙油結果結果驗出三級毒品"},{"start":9302.716,"end":9317.376,"text":"就是這個一粒棉FM2的這個三級的毒品成分結果它瞬間下不出來它是原本是很有自信的喔它不以為它是抽到什麼結果一驗出來就變成這個樣子所以我是講說"},{"start":9319.649,"end":9338.344,"text":"如果連這樣這樣單純的去抽這個電子煙不曉得煙有什麼成分然後連這樣一個司機都不會以為他抽到這個毒品結果卻抽到了所以這個事情我是覺得非常嚴重"},{"start":9338.996,"end":9355.326,"text":"所以是不是衛生部、教育部甚至今天警政署的相關的官員有到嗎?然後在針對這個電子煙在校園的流竄有沒有什麼更積極的作為?有嗎?我們麻煩教育部來"},{"start":9358.564,"end":9382.089,"text":"各位委員在校園的部分我們是結合校園的健康促進計畫加強教職員工對於這個電子煙以及加熱煙的這個外型的辨識以及造成的危害的認識那透過學生就是透過平常教職員工對於學生的接觸瞭解觀察學生是不是有使用或者攜帶相關物品的狀況如果有的話會進行檢查以及通報這個衛生局開罰"},{"start":9385.226,"end":9396.564,"text":"那你們這邊有沒有針對就是高中生以下的就教育部這邊自己去做跟教育部有配合去做調查這個比例有多高有沒有在主點上升"},{"start":9397.68,"end":9426.445,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分是因為近期內才列為這個管制以及這個毒品的部分是沒有錯沒有錯這段期間在香港通報的部分確實有大概有一些件數不過就是只有短期間內所以很難看到趨勢從去年到現在嘛對不對所以很短時間很難去看到這個趨勢也是這樣嘛是所以你們預計啦就是說就當當就從去年這個煙災防治法修正之後就應該開始就有一個"},{"start":9428.55,"end":9454.63,"text":"這個建制的一個作為應該是怎麼講從去年、今年甚至到明年是不是你們會向國健署這樣兩年公告一次會嗎跟委員報告我們對於那個通報的部分因為都透過校安通報的部分每年都會有通報的數據跟統計好 謝謝我為什麼要講這件事情那個你是警務署的教育部對不起 對不起 教育部"},{"start":9456.145,"end":9462.027,"text":"今天大家有很多委員都談到這個喪屍煙彈那從底的部分我就不再贅述我只是簡單強調一下我請問這個喪屍煙彈我們可以去立即做判斷是我有吸食"},{"start":9487.472,"end":9500.193,"text":"最快的方式就是這個快篩試劑嘛對不對對不對檢控署看起來是這樣子是用快篩試劑最快部長替這個檢控署打呼也很好了齁"},{"start":9501.427,"end":9508.815,"text":"10月15號的時候新北市議會有特別針對當時新北市警局有提出來說這個快餐4劑目前為止他們是採購了1360劑但實際上他們需求將近高達8000劑"},{"start":9519.562,"end":9536.778,"text":"那我寫下結束詞這部長你可能就很難答覆了他的8000劑到位了嗎包委員根據我們毒氣中心我是警政署刑事局的毒氣中心主任根據我們的瞭解新北市他們現在又採購了8000的已經到位了到位了好那全國的需求"},{"start":9537.418,"end":9561.545,"text":"六都啦,就六都來講新北市就已經在10月15號當時是沒有辦法到位,那你現在跟我討論是到位了那全國針對這種快篩試劑,因為它可以直接代表你警政署代表國家要向這個上次菸蛋的做宣戰嘛的一個最好的一個武器嘛,對不對?好,那全國需要這樣的一個快篩試劑的量,你們到位了嗎?"},{"start":9564.169,"end":9587.129,"text":"現在根據我們的統計全國已經買了快一萬劑了那這縣市各縣市快一萬劑新北市就佔了八千劑喔八千劑不包含新北的八千劑不包含新北八千劑不包含對嘛啊一個新北市六都就叫八千劑了那你現在準備一萬劑那顯然全台連其他五都都不夠啦"},{"start":9588.719,"end":9595.782,"text":"報告委員這個各縣市他們會依照他們的實際的需求量去做一些採購那目前是採1萬劑那陸續會這個滾動的檢討來採購你這個滾動檢討來採購你大致上可以檢討到什麼時候有一個定案"},{"start":9606.633,"end":9630.691,"text":"你是滾動檢討我清楚啦但是你這樣檢討我是不好意思跟你講你這樣檢討是很奇怪的一件事情因為新北市就要到八千那你現在檢診所才備用一萬那你到底知道什麼樣的檢討室檢討室的檢討我有點聽不太清楚我就講嘛就一個新北市就要八千了嘛你其他你這一萬也來不及供應這五都啊況且還有17個縣市啊"},{"start":9633.792,"end":9661.203,"text":"報告委員,我們會請他們再加強,然後我們也會去盤點的需求量。一個先行列好不好,這事情要快速啦。一個先行列,你把這個到底要供給多少的快篩試劑,我們來打擊這個上市煙彈的積極作為,提供給本委員參考好不好。可以,謝謝。好,謝謝。這最後我就要問部長了。部長,桃園部立院,他表示這個先行的毒品沒有藥物可以直接戒除腥炎。"},{"start":9662.023,"end":9672.356,"text":"我們不立院啦齁不立院對對對所以民眾有時候要求助卻無門所以他在10月起每週二下午開設這個成癮治療門診提供地檢署轉介"},{"start":9677.248,"end":9692.378,"text":"關起住戒癮治療服務也陪伴有益戒癮的民眾來探究這個成癮的根源所以我覺得桃園不利醫院來率先做這事情非常好那是不是全國的不利醫院都可以一併來做這樣的實施來設置所有開設這個相關的專診可以嗎"},{"start":9695.06,"end":9722.305,"text":"如果有這個需要我們會去努力好那我就請部長這邊是不是折承一下讓他們來做一個檢討嘛既然台灣部立院都已經開了嘛是的對不對那其他部列是不是一併來來做這樣的一個門診的設立好不好好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝林委員謝謝部長那接續我們請羅廷偉委員發言林淑芬委員發言後我們處理臨時提案只有兩件齁"},{"start":9731.56,"end":9742.225,"text":"好 主席有請部長還有法務部檢察司司長好 邱部長上台以後其他會不會有相關幕僚就不需要上台了齁"},{"start":9743.635,"end":9760.976,"text":"希望部長在這邊我們又要來跟你做探討那部長有些問題我想跟你請問我希望不要獲得不知道的答案請問藥品組陳姓紀師聯同他約用人員的年資一起算請問他是何時來食藥署上班的陳薇仁的女兒陳姓紀師"},{"start":9764.458,"end":9765.318,"text":"一百年"},{"start":9792.168,"end":9820.505,"text":"一百零四年吧請問他哪一年調去氣科組的?呃﹖是不是容許﹖好﹖食藥署莊署長﹖說明﹖陸長進委員早﹖跟委員報告那個陳姓的這個藥品組的事他在一百零四年七月禁用為約用人員那後來在一百零四年七月七月的﹖氣科組哪一年?"},{"start":9821.921,"end":9849.916,"text":"藥品組哪一年?請回答在112年他是公務人員高考三級分發到藥品組第三科我知道我是說他在哪一年到藥品組六科又到七科然後又到藥品組三科重點就在於112年高考三級分發藥品組三科的時候去年9月19放榜國家考試都要統一分發請問可以分到原單位的機率有多大?"},{"start":9850.896,"end":9870.906,"text":"告訴全國公務人員你原本在這一刻工作你是願用人員結果你統一分發你考上了恭喜你結果你還竟然可以分配到原單位這機率有多低全部公務人員都知道是林建良組長直接去要人的吧去年9月19號考上馬上分配到原單位那有這麼好康欸"},{"start":9878.991,"end":9907.608,"text":"我從基層里長做起議員到立委我都知道這中間有多困難了你們會不知道邱部長請問一下你認識前制藥公會陳薇仁理事長嗎?時任立委的時候他有沒有拜會過你?有還是沒有?直接回答我完全沒有印象沒有印象完全沒有印象所以你不敢否認說不認識太多人拜會過你了所以你不太確定是不是在開會啦或者是相關的"},{"start":9909.343,"end":9929.46,"text":"一照衛福部的回文二等輕的案子他只要不辦這個陳姓技師就繼續留在發藥證這個單位這樣子的說法所有的人都沒辦法接受陳薇仁是前製藥工會的理事長他的人脈很廣請問他的女兒下班後要叫叔叔伯伯阿姨的這些廠商他的案子辦不辦爸爸交代的案子辦不辦你回答大家"},{"start":9932.97,"end":9952.605,"text":"只要不處理二等親,爸爸交代其他人的案子辦不辦?包委員是這樣子,他是112年,我們的衛福部是這樣子你先回答我,他爸爸二等親以外的案子他爸爸交代他要不要辦?那我有機會講一下"},{"start":9955.485,"end":9981.231,"text":"部裡面的話就是說各司署我們只處理各司署的檢任的人士大概會到部裡面所以我們都尊重各司署在用人擔任所以這我要再帶到第二個問題這根本不是二等卿的問題因為二等卿如森達以及業界公認跟森達很好的一個廠商叫緯存也不必勞動誠信祭司來出面因為都會由藥品組林組長親令親為直接要求承辦人員訴見趕快辦"},{"start":9983.331,"end":10007.797,"text":"有沒有這一回事你知不知道你整個食藥署被我翻掉了你整個食藥署裡面的資料都在我身上你知不知道但是我要跟大家講現在我們面對的問題就是誠信祭司正在你的底下正在這個單位工作而你不處理回函告訴我只要不處理二等輕就沒關係繼續待在原單位"},{"start":10009.517,"end":10029.829,"text":"報告委員,我們一定依規定處理,我們好好的調查,如果不符合規定,我們馬上要處理。前任三科的林科長,是不是時常抗拒林健良組長無形的壓力,並而被三科調到一科,是不是有此事,請襯鋒單位調查再說明。依照公務員的案例,像這種狀況,應該主管機關都要暫時調離現職,以方便調查釐清事項。請問到現在為止,主管調離了嗎?"},{"start":10037.814,"end":10040.996,"text":"我們馬上從食藥局調查馬上處理那再跟委員報告"},{"start":10067.834,"end":10069.335,"text":"法務部委員"},{"start":10086.48,"end":10090.086,"text":"你知不知道新北清水所長、劉所長的公祭剛結束?"},{"start":10101.417,"end":10123.683,"text":"全國痛心全國都希望能夠好好的打擊毒價依托彌子的問題已經日漸上升而法務部我們應該要好好重視這個問題可以嗎?可以 發委我們已經開始在作業程序起動我們希望看到他升級我們希望看到嚴懲我們希望看到社會能夠更加安定安定的力量就需要整個法務部帶頭做起可以嗎?可以 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":10129.174,"end":10131.415,"text":"主席、各位大家午安,是請我們邱部長"},{"start":10154.864,"end":10170.598,"text":"委員好部長最近一次的行政院的毒品防治會報你剛才也承認說你沒有出席嗎那天是這個次長代理出席了那最近一次是6月17號那下一次你會出席嗎"},{"start":10171.834,"end":10179.3,"text":"那我們今天講說當天6月的那一次報告主責機關是食藥署那我們再問一下署長署長你對於毒品鑑驗的業務應該已經熟悉上手了吧你知道你是毒品鑑驗的業務主責機關嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":10200.407,"end":10213.711,"text":"你自己不知道喔?我要看旁邊喔?你知不知道你是負責建驗的主責機關?蛤?蛤?你現在要看旁邊?建驗的業務不是你負責的嗎?不是喔?"},{"start":10227.506,"end":10241.313,"text":"蛤?你不知道?不清楚?無法回答?報告委員,那個是我們在新世代反毒的那個綱領下面的那我問你到底是不是主責,責成就是你要去負責?"},{"start":10243.137,"end":10259.959,"text":"你知道6月17號你們的行政院毒品防治會報的主要報告機關是由食藥署署長當時的吳秀梅負責主題是驗毒策略驗毒的主責就是他就是你你不知道"},{"start":10262.247,"end":10270.069,"text":"天吶天吶難怪會2266署長你從上任到現在你在9月初還安排了專訪談來談去都是談5月的缺藥都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題然後提到食安的議題就是說這是我自己的弱項我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題然後關於食安事件你的同仁"},{"start":10287.594,"end":10314.11,"text":"包括保齡查釋事件是人家醫院通報醫院機敏的然後關於蘇丹統事件地方政府通報到中央來也是無動於衷的當初所以你認為交給你自己是弱項交給你同仁你同仁是這個樣子那數要數最大的問題就是抓不到鬼然後預算經費卻花最多花很多在食安預警上面但沒有預警的功能失去預警的功能"},{"start":10314.77,"end":10316.451,"text":"然後發生實案事件的時候,你們往往都是慢半拍的所以在這個專訪裡面,你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源,你要去幫台灣的藥品開發廠商學藉利用這些資源打世界盃,顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品、藥商、藥廠"},{"start":10335.757,"end":10361.564,"text":"但我們看到你這一篇專訪上任兩個月以後還只能談發生過的事情根本沒有談到未來願景也沒有談到制度上的調整你在7月1號上任的時候你在臉書上說你要扛起責任你要扛起責任帶領食藥署大破大立聚焦在制度的建立不要讓食藥署的危機逃過新的鬼然後得過且過"},{"start":10363.527,"end":10378.007,"text":"沒有檢討和建立因應制度,面對下一次危機依然束手無策,讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿在這裡,可是我們自將期許你希望你好好的用心在你食藥署的業務上"},{"start":10379.088,"end":10400.814,"text":"而今天做這個新興毒品的這個防治的這個問題那看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚那我們更希望你喔你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣喔你們署內的同仁那些組長的四位素三的組長沒有改革沒有換人"},{"start":10401.974,"end":10402.114,"text":"組長你回答啊"},{"start":10433.669,"end":10454.223,"text":"報告委員這個我要部長你知道他們院內他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落而且這樣子解讀的你知道嗎你有責任喔保證我覺得也肯定莊署長沒有我不需要你肯定現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休他會扛起責任他言之鑿鑿的你可以保證嗎他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天"},{"start":10462.605,"end":10479.595,"text":"阿賴之中耍行耍行奉獻到最後一天也真是慘勒我覺得他在部內所有的同仁都認爲他很快就掌握了狀況所有同仁都認爲他要等退休我告訴你我今天的重點不在那裏我問一下新興毒品好了啦來啦"},{"start":10484.038,"end":10500.708,"text":"我現在問你新興毒品你不要再在那裡幫他查紙抹粉啦我頭一次看到這個部長在幫署長查紙抹粉通常都是署長幫部長查紙抹粉的我現在不談這個啦談新興毒品啦大家都知道尤其是行政院毒品防治會報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長他有報告啊"},{"start":10505.851,"end":10520.756,"text":"這個根據法醫研究所的統計去年Alpha PIHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻一堆明脂都混合在香煙當中使用然後呢法務部檢察司的司長"},{"start":10523.485,"end":10546.27,"text":"你也有提到嘛所以臺高檢署去年11月在緝毒督導小組匯報成立毒品先驅原料預警平臺由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質看到不是毒品本身而已喔而是毒品先驅原料的物質提到該平臺中進行預警"},{"start":10547.35,"end":10553.477,"text":"有效列管依托民脂、美托民脂、易丙、帕脂等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的?是什麼東西的原料?"},{"start":10563.308,"end":10565.971,"text":"我不是在問你這個 我說它是作為什麼使用的 這個本來是做什麼的原料"},{"start":10585.529,"end":10605.944,"text":"有些是工業顏料,也有的是醫療的那醫療就跟食藥署有關吼吳秀美在行政院會報裡面就有講啦講啦欸我沒有帶圖啦吼沒關係你知道來署長你知道什麼東西的列管是你的責任署內的責任嗎"},{"start":10608.547,"end":10612.71,"text":"製毒原料假冒原料要進口,或者是藥品的原料進口?跟你有關吧?那問你合成卡系統?合成卡系統?"},{"start":10628.308,"end":10651.768,"text":"跟你有沒有相關?你們食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計卡西銅類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅高檢署也發布新聞稿97年到113年2月我國共檢出193種的新興毒品其中59種為合成卡西銅類而這個裡面的喵喵你知道嗎?署長你點頭知道你喵喵是什麼?"},{"start":10656.421,"end":10661.047,"text":"他是108年以後占新興毒品檢出件數的第一名而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件平均年齡幾歲你知道嗎?"},{"start":10678.992,"end":10695.928,"text":"30歲然後其中檢出了新興毒品成分排序喵喵從110年開始起他就是第一名吃多吃到死的喵喵是第一名另外值得關注的是Alpha-BiHP成為第三級毒品也是合成卡系統"},{"start":10697.769,"end":10719.158,"text":"然後都是煙草 俗稱彩虹煙啦彩虹煙用什麼名義偷渡進口 你知道嗎?進口啦 不要講偷渡啦 合法進來都用什麼名義進來 你知道嗎?原料 很多 卡西銅類他們用茶葉 茶葉申報入境是不是跟你有相關?茶葉 煙草茶葉 好"},{"start":10726.499,"end":10741.181,"text":"我們現在講說這種東西伊子彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關"},{"start":10742.642,"end":10761.075,"text":"報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後去濫用流向不明去做毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥"},{"start":10762.516,"end":10779.926,"text":"現在有篩檢到跟現在大量做成毒品混在毒品當中是兩件事我在問你的是不是你邊境管理跟你有關有那除非你告訴我走私的居多合法進口的居少你有辦法證明這樣子嗎報言那個所以我是要告訴你新興毒品的問題跟你除了這個"},{"start":10788.277,"end":10803.313,"text":"沿途的鑑識、鑑驗以外你從上游你就有很多責任更不要講到下游還有國建署的責任沒錯,都是你管的你管很多,不是只有法務部要理你而已"},{"start":10805.643,"end":10808.628,"text":"昨天的聯合報也披露警方從7月到9月同一期間7、8、9、3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍啊衛福部的啊"},{"start":10821.707,"end":10829.41,"text":"數字我們要看衛福部對非法新興煙品的怠惰和失職這個在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了刑事局統計警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油一共1415件送驗含大麻案件佔了52.6含喵喵的有27.9上司煙彈是依托彌子的有6.1"},{"start":10849.497,"end":10849.657,"text":"主動去查"},{"start":10878.019,"end":10878.14,"text":"你們查獲"},{"start":10894.827,"end":10919.153,"text":"總計兩年 從去年3月22號到今年9月30號我這裡看到資料 來 電子菸茶器50萬件僅處罰1247件今年前9月地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件那這個平均一天不到兩件甚至2月只有4件7到9月的暑假有294件所以這個人家認為說這個連"},{"start":10923.435,"end":10949.989,"text":"連這個法務部：連警方查的都比你們多啊當然我知道不好查啊但你們有沒有重點有沒有在查啊有跟委員報告我們跟地方這邊會跟縣市衛生局這邊來共同溝通怎麼加強這個查緝的力道跟採儲的加速你們查緝的量跟查貨的查到不法的量跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大"},{"start":10952.153,"end":10954.996,"text":"你們怎麼查?30萬件你們查?50萬件怎麼查?我們這個查緝的狀況你們怎麼查?47萬件是實體的是直接實體查緝的你有辦法查到47萬件怎麼查的?47萬次對啦47萬次你資料送來我有懷疑你一個行政部門中央地方加起來有辦法去查47萬件嗎?"},{"start":10976.736,"end":10976.796,"text":"就是說這個"},{"start":11006.319,"end":11011.685,"text":"新興煙毒品的查緝工作說明你們在擬定的落差裡面有什麼困難?擬定的這個策略跟執行面的落差你們到底遇到什麼困難?"},{"start":11023.454,"end":11035.889,"text":"報言這個好我先講一下先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部我知道啦毒品不是啦我當然知道但是呢我在問你們部長啊你可以叫你部長回答"},{"start":11037.961,"end":11058.644,"text":"等下就跟署長相關的我想政府部門是...保證我看你不要說你也說不出來我直接跟你說啦我直接講2023年的台灣藥物濫用學會他有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防治其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包茶氣困境的研究"},{"start":11059.224,"end":11071.172,"text":"他深度的訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員以及6位新興毒品混合包施用販運的親身體驗而且邀請了新興毒品混合包相關查緝鑒驗、藥理等5位專家辦理了焦點團體訪談以瞭解新興毒品混合包"},{"start":11080.879,"end":11098.076,"text":"查緝困境的整體情境脈絡、瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰,然後提出了具體建議人家是這樣子,然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考請問一下來事要署署長有跟你們相關的嗎?有跟你們相關的嗎?人家訂出來在那裡你們看了嗎?"},{"start":11105.455,"end":11132.899,"text":"報告委員我沒有看到那有沒有其他人看到沒有好我連這方面都動於衝來我直接跟你報告好了人家做出來檢驗能量檢驗能量是不是跟你有關食藥署那個剛剛那個毒品的檢驗不是我們我們是對認證實驗室是由我來檢驗方法是不是你們檢驗方法檢驗方法是不是你們要檢驗標準是不是你們"},{"start":11135.107,"end":11137.871,"text":"委員是因為剛剛對嘛你沒有鑑驗方法你沒有標準程序訂定他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊所以你是最上流的你鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境因為"},{"start":11149.226,"end":11166.496,"text":"新鮮毒品混合包的特色第一個為了逃避法規經常會變化混合包成分的化學式造成檢驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出而且檢驗機器的新舊檢驗標準品的取得與否檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得是誰要負責給"},{"start":11171.938,"end":11196.222,"text":"連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分檢驗的結果,檢驗的能量能否即使趕上新興毒品變化的速度,攸關整體新興毒品混合包茶器跟主角毒品的犯罪成效。現在來了,成分變化迅速,相關你的法令、你的檢驗方法、你的標準,你定得出來敢得上這種變化嗎?你可以嗎?"},{"start":11198.206,"end":11225.056,"text":"報告委員我們現在大概已知的標準品現在食藥署通通都有準備而且應該青菜公共欸人家這一個這一個藥物濫用學會的指出了你們成分變化迅速相關法令管制不足三個月召開一次毒品水液委員會然後查緝到了疑似的新興毒品但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質所以"},{"start":11225.776,"end":11245.247,"text":"連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪而且受驗與檢驗能量及法令你的檢驗標準它變化成分就會不一樣所以呢這個法規啊化學是一直不斷的變化連起訴都沒有辦法也沒有辦法說它是一個劣管毒品"},{"start":11246.087,"end":11263.036,"text":"然後呢我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊所以你對新興毒品的辨識、知能及工具不足然後出塞的柿子啊這個有很多的限制很多偽陽性、偽陰性那你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足也不夠當然這個拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置"},{"start":11269.6,"end":11280.372,"text":"但是呢新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力辨識能力不足第二個你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足然後這個要透過系統化的培訓要更專業然後第三個經費"},{"start":11289.301,"end":11295.911,"text":"那建驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的新興毒品的多樣性變異性使得建驗標準品難以取得再來新興毒品的資料庫的建置困境"},{"start":11305.985,"end":11325.236,"text":"先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足會導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物所以在這個圖影響資料庫當中的資料的完整性鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考還有質譜技術的運用而你在這個裡面"},{"start":11326.957,"end":11328.278,"text":"對於這個原物料上游的管控,都是你們有關,並不是沒有"},{"start":11355.83,"end":11365.693,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想我們一定這樣結束很簡單的時間到雖然是這樣時間到但是你說這樣你都很簡單做補充跟做輸出太簡單了啦你這樣子都太簡單了啦你的輸出要注意啦什麼都搞不清楚了我們會提升我們的力量來打擊不法你這個是口號是自理的不嗎口號是自理嗎"},{"start":11385.484,"end":11386.144,"text":"總共有2案很快請一併先讀"},{"start":11403.493,"end":11425.387,"text":"第一案請衛福部在一週內提交家長適用毒品與發生而虐食相關統計數據及防制作為之書面報告給立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、王育敏第二案衛福部預告煙品禁止使用添加物草案社會各界認為讓漏洞更大"},{"start":11426.227,"end":11443.251,"text":"原請國建署在一週內將本次預告的決策理由選擇這27項添加物的依據是什麼以及政策影響評估有哪些層面提交書面報告給立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、陳金輝宣讀完畢請問第一案新政單位有無意見委員有好"},{"start":11457.257,"end":11460.7,"text":"第二案有沒有意見?沒有意見,遵照辦理好,那臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來我們請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":11482.048,"end":11505.199,"text":"主席有請衛福部、法務部檢察司、內政部警政署請部長及各位單位出席我想先問法務部目前政府在政策方向是不是還是希望用輔導還起訴來取代陸服刑"},{"start":11505.902,"end":11534.091,"text":"那我看到各單位一直說臺灣使用毒品的人數是下降的那你覺得這個資料是正確的嗎?根委員報告我們本部就是在推行緩起訴處分的戒嚴治療的措施以及多元除疫方案這是我們對適用毒品者把它當成病人的一個處理模式那有關於適用毒品者的人數下降的部分"},{"start":11536.391,"end":11552.561,"text":"高檢署的統計數字是這樣的是這樣那我跟你講齁我看衛福部的資料今年度上半年學生藥物濫用的比例在三級毒品的部分比去年增加了11個百分點那以我們的司長您的經驗齁這個在毒品"},{"start":11555.723,"end":11571.851,"text":"的這個所謂的成癮的過程當中,很多人就從三級毒品開始嘛,是不是?根文報告,有關於這個青少年的部分不在我們法務部,就是少年的部分不在我們法務部,所以這個數據的統計,統計。那我就請衛福部來說啦,好不好?部長。毒品的"},{"start":11578.735,"end":11585.604,"text":"為什麼是在增加三級毒品?你們衛福部的統計啊?對啊,衛福部的統計啊?沒關係,在教育部"},{"start":11592.993,"end":11617.448,"text":"衛福部的資料然後我們的那個檢查師不懂然後我們教育部總要輪到教育部懂了來根據委員報告在113年度截至目前為止的部分相較於去年同期確實略有增加哦叫略有增加增加11個百分點叫略有增加三級毒品齁其實往往變成一種毒品的入門也是青少年藥物濫用比例最高的分類嘛對不對"},{"start":11618.502,"end":11624.851,"text":"所以此這個部分真的三個單位不要像剛剛示範的樣子你不懂我不懂你啦"},{"start":11626.368,"end":11650.393,"text":"因為這個業務跟三個單位都有關吧沒錯吧所以三個單位應該要一起想辦法去解決這個問題不然我們校園毒品的那個問題越來越嚴重幾乎是已經社會共識了另外我們看到說警政署提供的資料第三級毒品使用人數從109人到今年9月都是呈現累積增加的增長的趨勢今年看起來會突破萬件"},{"start":11651.593,"end":11677.079,"text":"那實際上也跟剛剛我們在講說你說我們法務部說根據你們資料看起來好像毒品的人數在下降那當然我覺得不是說今天破獲抓到的人數多好那這個部分當然我也說警方也是很辛苦可是我們的毒品越來越氾濫這個幾乎是我們現在大家共同憂心的事情我希望不要用一些美化的說法跟美化數字在掩蓋問題"},{"start":11679.52,"end":11697.291,"text":"因為發現問題才能夠解決問題嘛那接下來我想請教一下我一直在尤其在依托米子的這個新興毒品的問題上我已經有好幾次在追蹤了但是我想要請教一下為什麼花了一年才能夠把依托米子列為三級毒品"},{"start":11697.851,"end":11717.206,"text":"那現在在研議要做二級毒品了嘛 對不對還是跟委員報告因為我們3月份就提出告警然後由這個法院研究所提臨時動議在6月份就通過為三級毒品那我們在禮拜一已經啟動是不是把它升級為二級毒品的一個那需要多久時間"},{"start":11718.327,"end":11718.567,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":11749.049,"end":11762.327,"text":"這個時間我們可以更...我要跟...我要跟...我要跟我們司長講你們在跟時間賽跑你知道嗎?現在依托米子出的問題越來越多你總知道吧?而且很嚴重阿對你甚至比...有時候比一般你們在管制二級毒品的問題還嚴重欸是"},{"start":11763.869,"end":11764.029,"text":"感謝您,謝謝"},{"start":11790.771,"end":11794.272,"text":"謝謝羅志祥委員、謝謝部長接續我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席、楊瓊英發言再邀請部長部長請"},{"start":11814.807,"end":11835.807,"text":"部長我們繼續來討論新興毒品的案件那我想每一個委員大家都非常的關心我希望接下來的詢答可以聽到你有些什麼方案那電子煙呢這個載具的部分也成為是毒品吸食的這個工具"},{"start":11836.528,"end":11863.807,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下我們也看到一個數字讓我們很緊張也就是相關的毒價事故是它是接連的發生所以從1月份到9月份中央跟地方衛生局依照《煙害防治法》它採訪了639件違規的電子煙的案件那麼其中7月到9月就有294件"},{"start":11865.248,"end":11886.569,"text":"那相較於我們在看刑事的部分 刑事局的這個統計數字7月份跟9月份他所查獲到的喪屍煙彈的這個部分違規的就有681件所以換句話說我們所查到的跟刑事局所查到的差距2.3倍"},{"start":11888.911,"end":11913.941,"text":"2.3倍那這個凸顯為什麼刑事局他所查獲的是你的2.3倍我真的不願意說你怠惰或者是失職但是我希望你能夠拿出方案因為我們政府在推整個新世代的反毒策略的行動綱領裡頭他除了科技企圖"},{"start":11914.961,"end":11916.181,"text":"新興毒品檢驗之外還有相當大的資源貫注在成癮治療的部分還有社區復歸的部分這也表示"},{"start":11930.146,"end":11958.113,"text":"政府的確看到目前社會這個問題是非常的嚴峻所以才會投資這樣龐大的一個資源所以我們看到新興毒品的普及以及你們的管控根本沒有辦法管控危害到整個公共的這個安全所以我要請教部長什麼原因讓你們無法有效的去遏止這些致命產品的一個"},{"start":11959.034,"end":11960.469,"text":"一個擴散請教部長"},{"start":11961.343,"end":11988.817,"text":"好 謝謝委員那我想毒品的防制及跨部會的合作還有地方中央的一個協力像在毒我們如果以衛生部來講當然就是用煙害防治法在中央跟地方衛生部可是本席已經告訴你你煙害防治法你到目前為止你的數量你光光查緝到的就是低於人家已經高於你的兩倍多那怎麼辦呢因為我們查的量的量其實是23萬"},{"start":11990.678,"end":11997.022,"text":"部長你這麼回答本席可以給你一個註解也就是政府在整個橫向的一個聯繫根本沒有聯繫各做各的各推一把號所以難怪我們到目前為止公共安全還是得不到安全"},{"start":12020.978,"end":12048.091,"text":"對當然當然如果說結論結果不是很理想我們一定要改善好部長你就這個改善所以我說我聽了一個早上我聽不到你們的方案我聽不到方案我給你註解橫向的聯繫沒有辦法聯繫那麼我們的結果論是人民是不安的而且他數量是在增加的你有什麼方案你有什麼方案你可以答覆我嗎你有什麼方案可以去精進"},{"start":12049.934,"end":12072.339,"text":"跟委員報告我是國民健康署我想在整個跨部會橫向連結上面在溯源跟警政署合作歐國委員一個報告我們其實跟警政這邊在去年到今年我們大概有1130次的一起聯訪你請停止你的發言請部長部長我給你功課"},{"start":12075.08,"end":12081.928,"text":"你們現在從早上到現在所答覆的都是目前你怎麼做本期已經告訴你答案越來越嚴重"},{"start":12084.025,"end":12104.993,"text":"父母不安心阿公阿嬤不安心校園也不安心這怎麼辦如果你們的答詢還是一樣這我現在做什麼我已經告訴你本期告訴你結果論我給你功課好不好你去橫向聯繫你去找出精進方案好不好你多久時間可以告訴我一個方案一個月"},{"start":12105.393,"end":12132.827,"text":"好一個月你們去精進怎麼樣查緝怎麼樣防止好不好讓大家能夠安心毒品的問題讓社會非常的不安一個月內請拿出方向那繼續本期要跟你討論的也就是我們發生了高雄醫大膚色綜合醫院因為檢驗毒品的誤判在這樣的情況我們就好好去討論你整個的過程到底是哪裡出了問題"},{"start":12133.848,"end":12133.948,"text":"衛生福利部長"},{"start":12151.371,"end":12178.337,"text":"毒品危害防治條例的每3個月公告調整每3個月公告調整那麼增減毒品的分級品項機制雖然你可以提升你整個檢驗品質但是部長你這條流程是怎麼如此嗎部長部長是你很注意在看我的資料毒品的整個流程要怎麼樣去判定要多久時間請問"},{"start":12180.779,"end":12199.147,"text":"要多久時間?毒品的判定,毒品有很多種。毒品的判定你講不出來,我跟你講啦!所以難怪你要做功課,去找出精進方案。本期告訴你,公文文件審查21天,書面審查56日,實地評鑑約要6個月。"},{"start":12206.966,"end":12229.996,"text":"缺失改善報告及書面扶貧45天一個半月45天完成後提交審議小組審議請教部長新興毒品它是千變萬化訊息萬變快速變化如果依照目前本席告訴你你們現在所做的流程你應對的來嗎你應對的來嗎請教部長"},{"start":12234.945,"end":12260.017,"text":"我想我們會去檢討現在目前的流程是否足夠應付現在的需求如果不夠當然是要全力加速所以本席具體建議你誠意的提出說出你們必須要滾動式的去檢討煙毒流程及管理的機制那麼同時空窗期的風險你們要怎麼樣管控"},{"start":12261.117,"end":12280.337,"text":"剛剛本席所念的那些流程你絕對應變不了現在的新興毒品的一個迅速發展對不對你頻頻說是你趕快去檢討好不好這個讓我們很憂心政府如果沒有機制我們該當要怎麼辦人民只有受苦"},{"start":12281.766,"end":12283.127,"text":"政府非常重視這個議題會全力以赴我們一個月好了"},{"start":12298.911,"end":12302.832,"text":"院讀流程管理機制空窗期一個月內將你的精準方案提交出來好不好讓社會大眾去了解才不會那麼恐怖好不好那接下來最後一個議題虐童的事件"},{"start":12318.595,"end":12326.023,"text":"大家非常的關心我們108年到112年我們的兒童受虐的人口從11113人增加到12646人換句話說每週每一個禮拜部長一禮拜都有兩個孩子來受虐這是心痛啊"},{"start":12338.197,"end":12362.402,"text":"不可以這樣嘛,不可以如此嘛,對不對?是不是啊?所以說虐的類型又以身心的虐待這個是終身有的是沒有辦法去抹掉耶,這太可憐了所以在這樣子包括不當的這個管教因此目前我們在兒童保護體系裡面面臨的這麼多的挑戰包括我們社工人員"},{"start":12363.362,"end":12369.185,"text":"的人員該當負荷這麼大,要怎麼樣去解決?所以請教部長,你認為臺灣兒少保護的現況有沒有惡化的趨勢?"},{"start":12379.51,"end":12402.695,"text":"我們是一直在提強化的計畫有強化的計畫也就是你看到的問題是惡化嘛對不對你要勇於去面對問題你才有辦法去解決面對之嘛通報案件成長近三成啊所以我們好恐怖喔通報案件近三成所以本席直接切入我們的目前的現況是惡化的對不對"},{"start":12414.866,"end":12426.154,"text":"我再給你一個數字每一位受虐孩童幸存的孩子他的終身照護成本大概是這個636萬對不對21萬美金"},{"start":12431.792,"end":12453.864,"text":"在這個是全世界所統計出來所以你也拼命說是你也是專家你已經看到這個問題你要怎麼辦要怎麼辦面對虐兒的議題我們的社會成本或許比這個636萬還要多還要多我們不忍心三成的一個增長"},{"start":12455.213,"end":12457.474,"text":"好,我們為了強調強化我們兒少保護的三級預防我們現在引以兒童兒少的一個潛力法的一個修正"},{"start":12481.599,"end":12495.746,"text":"還有兒童托育服務方草案這個部分我相信我們參佐聯合國的一個權益的公約一定可以更加的作權什麼時候送出來?什麼時候?這麼心痛的事情什麼時候可以送出來?我們會把時程跟儘快跟現在有沒有KPI的指標出來?你已經面對到你已經告訴我三成我告訴你二話你們什麼時候可以送出來?"},{"start":12513.92,"end":12527.624,"text":"你告訴我時長好不好我們這個如果以法案的話很難過如果以法案的話我們會盡量因為修法會更加周全你什麼時候可以送出來你沒有送出來我們怎麼審我們這個會期會送行政院因為這個的確是要好好的再找專家來這個會期才要送"},{"start":12539.144,"end":12556.423,"text":"拜託你加速好不好拜託你加速好不好你已經看到三成的增加一直在惡化加速時間好嗎加速時間好不好趕快加速把進行方案給本席好不好多久可以給本席"},{"start":12558.379,"end":12558.839,"text":"接續我們請賴世保、賴委員質詢"},{"start":12602.004,"end":12605.927,"text":"委員好幾位長官好請問現在校園的毒品"},{"start":12630.157,"end":12631.958,"text":"就今年的同期跟去年同期比較是略微增加"},{"start":12655.134,"end":12671.685,"text":"比較嚴重啦你還可以看喔一到九月份幾位長官聽好喔一到九月份我們的這裡面有一個喪屍煙彈就叫做電子煙啊這個燈燈的或者是加熱煙的成長58.2倍"},{"start":12677.725,"end":12685.937,"text":"他裏面就是大麻糍一坨糜子這個是很嚴重的事情部長你怎麼愛我三級毒品這個你知道嗎"},{"start":12691.345,"end":12691.805,"text":"一坨米吃"},{"start":12721.425,"end":12724.506,"text":"今天這兩天的媒體揭露的我們來看"},{"start":12752.565,"end":12764.432,"text":"請問請問來邱部長你補電話你比較大你知不知道旁邊啊7-11啦便利商店隨時都可以買到那個電子煙啊加熱煙隨時可以買到你知道嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":12767.799,"end":12793.015,"text":"你都不知道勒便利商店可以買到誰是可以買到啦那現在是違法啊現在是違法請問加熱煙跟電子煙合法嗎合法嗎你講到現在是在目前為法嗎到現在是違法電子煙是違法加熱煙是要申請但是到現在為止你們一家都沒有准嘛對不對目前還沒有通過所以加熱煙跟電子煙問題是你到旁邊去我們有7-11你去買看看我等一下也看得笑了你去拿回去"},{"start":12797.118,"end":12797.919,"text":"到處可見啊!到處可見!這個事情誰管?沒有人管你!"},{"start":12809.37,"end":12827.525,"text":"對 其實這個青少年使用電子煙在實體店面的這個買的部分我們是嚴加查緝的但是我們確實在這個網路平台上面是我們下一個重的網路啊 網路啊 到處可見你Google一下都告訴你什麼不要人家輸 對不對"},{"start":12831.008,"end":12842.898,"text":"我現在給你回顧一下啦請問 來來來 邱部長現在大麻有沒有批評犯案有沒有 大麻 馬尼灣有沒有看起來是有上升的趨勢 有啦我告訴你 你可以看喔主要 老實講最大的元兇就是大法官釋憲790號釋憲他釋憲之後 你可以看喔 這裡圖表釋憲之後"},{"start":12860.277,"end":12872.327,"text":"這個串聲了使用毒品電子煙的人數也增加二級毒品受觀察熱切的也增加尿液、檢驗、大麻成長都暴增了老實講我們就看歷年來對大麻要放寬的事件"},{"start":12883.342,"end":12909.13,"text":"我們做個review2016年當時的立委叫顧立雄就是這個國防部長顧立雄他就提出來啊接近要把這個毒品處罪化你知道嗎2016年結果2017年蔡英文總統提名4個會的委員兩位提出毒品處罪法2019年另外一個立委主張大麻合法化"},{"start":12911.121,"end":12938.312,"text":"2020年就是我剛剛提到的大法官釋憲790號釋憲以後大麻勤捷輕微者減刑二分之一結果原來五年本來說2.5年就好了結果法務部一下子把它修法變成一年了那2020年今年民進黨美國的官選團安排大麻上院的一個參會的行程很清楚的看得到民進黨是"},{"start":12940.204,"end":12946.833,"text":"這個黨是往大馬合法化的角度一直在走這個部長你有沒有接到這個知識啊"},{"start":12948.533,"end":12975.192,"text":"沒有 我沒有接到任何質詢法務部有沒有法務部跟委員報告大馬不可能合法化大馬是我們強力查緝的這個毒品法務部絕對反對大馬合法化對不對反對 堅決反對你們為什麼當初沒有五年的大法官只是說前一半就好了你們建成一年為什麼你知道嗎為什麼因為那個時候我還沒有在法務部你不在法務部"},{"start":12977.652,"end":12989.746,"text":"這法務部就太體貼了就看到這個趨勢了看到這個趨勢幾位長官特別是邱部長你貴為部長你要為我們下一代著想剛才你們的同仁講到"},{"start":12991.963,"end":12997.166,"text":"報告委員實體商店是絕對不可能買得到的其實就是您剛提到的網路平台"},{"start":13010.573,"end":13011.234,"text":"一堆啊!一堆啊!"},{"start":13039.412,"end":13045.256,"text":"為什麼可以讓他進來沒有 自由貿易港區的是不能進來對不對那裡面能不能放麻煩"},{"start":13050.199,"end":13078.457,"text":"海洛因可不可以放自由貿易港區?關於自由貿易港區設計條例就是不可以放違禁品的對不對?那你都已經違法了為什麼可以放那裡?如果你的說法說啊這個是轉運而已那毒品可以放那裡啊海洛因就放那裡啊為什麼不可以?這個講法不能夠成立啊那我炮彈可不可以轉運放那裡?也不行啊自由貿易港區的事情我們正在跟財政部這邊共同來協調財政部財政部那個那個署長啊署長啊"},{"start":13080.62,"end":13081.402,"text":"來 產生部講一下你對於自由貿易港區的電子煙、加熱煙怎麼處理"},{"start":13093.189,"end":13120.303,"text":"跟委員報告齁,財政部這邊自由貿易港區一設置自由貿易港區設置管理條例齁,但是15條裡面有這樣一個規定15條規定很清楚嘛,違禁品不可以啊那現在這個違禁品的定義有沒有包括剛剛講的這個誰來定義請問你,誰來定義那這個部分是自由貿易港區的主管機關他們說是你們,你們說是委務部不是我們定義的嘛來,那個部長啊,今天你關最大,可不可以在這裡承諾嗯"},{"start":13122.1,"end":13135.57,"text":"一個月裡面,把它整合一下,自由貿易港區一堆電子煙、加熱煙的裡面,把它處理可以嗎?那這個部分海關跟那個衛福部,跟那個交通部,我知道啦,我現在就請邱部長啦,你給我們承諾一下可以嗎?"},{"start":13139.025,"end":13153.121,"text":"一個月裡面把這事情解決掉你協調各部位把它解決然後對話公佈可以嗎對對對你就來當主事者因為你是衛福部管健康的嘛"},{"start":13155.122,"end":13178.347,"text":"這個主管機關還是在交通部跟財政部交通部沒有管這個啦我都去問過了財政部在財政部交通部沒有啦財政部也不管這個健康分析就是衛福部啦今天部長在這裡部長承諾把一個月裡面你協調財政部、交通部一起我們一定會去協調一個月一個月內一定協調好一個月內把協調做好再跟我們報告好不好這個我們報告謝謝謝謝賴委員謝謝部長、市長"},{"start":13185.585,"end":13213.28,"text":"繼續我們請圖前級委員質詢好 謝謝主席那麻煩請我們邱部長還有我們警政監我們警政署的吳警政監還有我們教育部的吳司長好 在這請"},{"start":13214.642,"end":13244.032,"text":"委員好好那我先請教一下我們警政署這兩年我們警政署針對大麻種植茶器的工作好像在這幾年好像有很大的斬獲對不對包委員因為大麻是二級毒品所以我們警政署的毒氣中心會對於我們所有的毒品的流行的趨勢包括今天我們關注的伊托米子"},{"start":13244.795,"end":13246.316,"text":"大麻在種植販售的數量也越來越大而且甚至有"},{"start":13271.231,"end":13278.812,"text":"規模化的跡象那而且在上個禮拜新竹是不是也有破獲市值高達20億的大麻製毒工廠"},{"start":13280.049,"end":13303.492,"text":"是 保委員那這個也是我們毒氣中心去整合因為在新竹地檢署的指揮之下在我們刑事局的正義大隊還有新竹縣市警察局有分別查獲了這個大麻的種植那我們把它統合溯源它是後面是共同的一個金主所以我們在高檢署的統合之下在我們刑事局發布新聞"},{"start":13304.517,"end":13329.674,"text":"那當然能夠查獲這個市值20億這大麻製毒工廠也是一個肯定但是相對我們從一些數據來看單單112年查緝大麻的總種根植株數就是110年的9.7倍那今年113年1到6月份這個同期幾乎是去年同期成長近一倍對不對"},{"start":13331.842,"end":13355.179,"text":"這個我剛剛跟委員報告過因為在新世代反毒策略的當中這一個氣毒合作組是高檢署主責然後我們警政署有六大部門警政署是其中一個部門所以我們非常重視大麻的這個查緝包括源頭的管理所以這個數字會在往上然後到達一個程度之後就會成為平原期對"},{"start":13355.859,"end":13380.887,"text":"重點那是因為我們觀察這數據我們看到這大麻茶季的總數量逐年提升而且這成長的幅度是越來越高但是你看我們檢方偵檢偵查出來大麻失用的人數跟這個成長這大麻茶季的總數量這個不成比例所以我們是不是認為在大麻失用人口上其實還有很大的黑數"},{"start":13382.811,"end":13403.54,"text":"發言委員 這個部分這個高檢署也統合了我們警政署其實我們有發動的兩批有動三動五跟動夠動兩的這一個大麻適用者黑素的一個挖掘我們也分別都查獲了幾百人因為大麻是三級土品所以我們在申請對於吸食者的這一個是二級土品所以我們在對於大麻的這一個說隨便的申請"},{"start":13404.54,"end":13405.48,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13426.825,"end":13435.871,"text":"這麼多年居然只有13個我覺得這跟我們社會的觀感落差甚大那這一部分警政署有沒有針對這一部分做過調查"},{"start":13441.226,"end":13455.275,"text":"法務委員我剛剛有跟委員報告過我們除了源頭的這個查緝還有吸食者的挖掘那我們還有做一個溯源的動作只要這兩個都有的話我們都會往上溯源溯源到銷源的話我們就依照既定的流程來偵辦"},{"start":13457.396,"end":13483.786,"text":"好剛剛有好幾個委員有提過其實這個大麻我們據我們統計為什麼它會導向學生的群體我們來討論一下第一我們覺得它的取得太容易尤其現在毒販常常利用這個社群媒體在販售那學生接觸網路又多甚至可以經由超商通路就可以運輸這部分對不對是不是都有查獲這部分"},{"start":13486.92,"end":13507.663,"text":"這個就是我們那個辦案的暗源之一啊對啊所以這個我們來講就是取得太容易還有這個吸食大麻簡單化現在喔很多年輕族群都用這個電子煙年輕人愛這個電子煙然後他這個吸食大麻非常的簡單也造成取締不容易再來學生喔"},{"start":13508.103,"end":13536.917,"text":"當然心智尚未成熟而且外在的誘惑跟壓力導致這個學生我們感覺這個學生吸食這個人口數直線上升而且泰國目前大麻的合法化再加上現在常常媒體在報導很多的公眾人物吸食常常登上這個新聞版面也變成很多年輕人在網路等等看到以後反而造成這個模仿的效益"},{"start":13537.597,"end":13558.544,"text":"而且在大麻好像在他們學生族群中已經變成他們一般的娛樂性因為他們常常會說這個成癮性很低副作用很低所以很多學生的族群在聚會據我們了解常常都會用電子煙吸食這個大麻那針對這部分不知道你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":13561.462,"end":13568.432,"text":"那部長部長因為這個應該你們衛福部針對這個煙害防治法的部分部長應該針對這部分是不是有個說明一下好"},{"start":13573.223,"end":13599.177,"text":"跟委員報告,剛才委員提醒的就是電子煙的煙彈成為一些相關有毒物質、化學物質的載具這件事我們目前是跟地方積極的來做一個加強它的查緝希望可以盡早的對電子煙產生更多的嚇阻我們希望警政署跟教育部這部分真的要加強配合因為這個"},{"start":13600.678,"end":13621.567,"text":"其實大家都知道這又很大的黑數 茶器的數量那麼大茶貨的 私用的人口這麼少 這根本就不成比例表示這私用人口又很大的黑數 根本都沒有茶器沒有掌握所以針對公眾人物吸食大麻 這個怕產生這個模仿效益我們覺得 吸用這個二級毒品應該不得緩刑 還有針對14歲到18歲"},{"start":13626.75,"end":13640.908,"text":"財閥金額得減輕資我覺得應該也是要修改不得減資喔我覺得還是要加重刑罰才有這個嚇阻的效用那針對這部分我們相當會可不可以研議一下啊是的"},{"start":13642.678,"end":13671.298,"text":"希望部長針對這個人數一直上升這個真的要來重視一下還有我們針對二級毒品大麻之外現在因為電子煙流行用大麻煙草變成大麻煙彈還有現在依托米子也跟電子煙結合變成喪屍煙彈那這一部分我們近來取締的成果到底怎麼樣為什麼現在感覺這社會上對這喪屍煙彈大家都非常的恐慌"},{"start":13674.366,"end":13699.511,"text":"那這部分取締的成果怎麼樣?那個警政監這邊可以說明一下嗎?報告委員我們有鑒於這個一坨米子、一餅帕子還有每坨米子這個部分的流行所以我們在今年的暑假的青春專案其實我們就有加強各縣市的這個取締那配合高檢署"},{"start":13700.191,"end":13702.312,"text":"這部分剛好有講到你看我們1到9月份衛福部跟地方衛生局針對"},{"start":13727.799,"end":13749.973,"text":"加熱煙、電子煙、柴房的件數其實只有639件但是這639件在7到9月就幾乎佔了一半表示這個暑假就是學生的旺季所以我們一直擔心就是學生這個稀食的數量非常的龐大但是我們衛福部跟地方衛生局這個查緝真的要檢討"},{"start":13750.854,"end":13773.823,"text":"你看我們單單警察在7到9月份查這上市煙彈的案件數就可以打600多件所以我覺得是不是我們衛福部在這一部分查氣的部分真的要大大的來加強跟委員報告剛才部長已經有指示我們在這個電子煙查氣的部分在一個月內要做出相關的精進說明再向委員這邊再報告"},{"start":13775.407,"end":13803.986,"text":"好,我們今天會提出的真的是非常的擔心我們現在這個學生族群這使用大麻的人口數直線攀升因為這個對他們來講真的取得太容易他用這個電子煙加熱煙就可以結合這個喪屍煙彈這喪屍煙彈現在造成社會很嚴重的問題而且我們很多的警察人員也因為這些問題而喪屍了性命所以這一部分我希望我們衛福部、教育部"},{"start":13804.406,"end":13804.506,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13830.322,"end":13855.581,"text":"我們請這個衛福部的邱部長然後法務部檢察師的郭司長先請這兩位這個部長好委員好這個部長我剛剛聽到這個賴世保委員講說這個民進黨要往這個大麻合法化的方向去走"},{"start":13856.906,"end":13874.915,"text":"我送他八個字胡說八道危言聳聽你身為民進黨籍的這一個部會首長遇到這種事情隨便亂講的馬上要澄清啊馬上要駁斥啊什麼叫民進黨要往大麻合法化方向去走亂講我現在來討論這一個電子煙的問題電子煙"},{"start":13885.159,"end":13898.225,"text":"這個按照這個媒體的報導去年3月這個煙毒防治法這個通過之後去年3月到今年的9月稽查了50萬件開罰了1247件懲案率0.0025%"},{"start":13907.045,"end":13920.738,"text":"全國警方7-9月同一期間查獲喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍剛剛委員也都有在問為什麼落差會這麼大為什麼成案率這麼低"},{"start":13925.438,"end":13943.57,"text":"各位委員報告我是國民健康署其實在這個電子煙的這個執行是依煙害防治法來做執行所以它的行政程序跟行政的調查部分跟警政署的這個毒品防治條例是有不一樣的所以說你開罰這麼低"},{"start":13947.188,"end":13966.835,"text":"是法律有問題還是執行有問題其實這個是因為要進行行政的一些誠心跟約詢所以是程序上是比較長那我再問你這我剛剛都聽到了50萬件次裡面網路的這個查竊案件說3萬多件次是不是比例太低"},{"start":13968.069,"end":13990.138,"text":"我剛才聽到說未來的你們的目標在於這個網路上面的查緝那為什麼網路上面的查緝會這麼的低我先問你你們現在裁罰的話網路上的裁罰是裁罰買家跟賣家而已嗎有沒有處罰平台有有處罰平台嗎有處罰平台的案例有多少61件61件那處罰多少錢40萬開始40萬開始對所以61件每一件都40萬開始嗎是"},{"start":13998.492,"end":14017.117,"text":"這個可不可以用這個煙案防治法來做處罰那為什麼才41件你知不知道在網路上買電子煙非常非常的容易我只要在網路上面我只要Google電子煙網購一大堆資訊都出來了還跟你推薦說有哪一些平台是你可以去買的"},{"start":14018.217,"end":14044.697,"text":"你們有沒有看過委員我們很清楚這個狀況都很清楚那為什麼這個情況會這麼的氾濫所以我們跟平台業者是很密集的在開會那我也跟委員報告我們甚至跟他們建立了個綠色通道大家互拋一些keywords跟相關的訊息確實我們需要按照這一個國建署的這個資料去年底去年的大概9月到12月"},{"start":14046.274,"end":14074.993,"text":"這個有違法的這個這個拍這個網路上賣電子業的這個主要的平臺齁集中在Facebook、IG還有露天平臺這3個平臺去年底3個案3個月的案件比例高達9成對它也是我們開罰最多的才41件啊才61件啊但是這個有相當多的約尋的程序這個這個我不太相信說什麼約尋的程序你去查了幾件"},{"start":14076.898,"end":14105.355,"text":"譬如說你查了200件那最後這個比如說約尋的這個陳案41件61件那我可以接受那你們總共約尋了幾件?查了幾件?在網路上查緝就是3萬多件3萬多件但是因為我們要從行政的採取上面我們要約尋賣家還有所以按照這個煙害防治法第30條就可以來做處罰了嗎?對按照它有刊登"},{"start":14106.328,"end":14134.378,"text":"的部分就進行網路業者的裁法現在按照這個打造專法這個只要是這個境外的這個網路平臺最遲要在這個今年的10月31號要以書面指定法律代表登記就是說每一個平臺你們都找得到人他都有法律的代表過去常常講說是境外查不到沒辦法罰"},{"start":14135.967,"end":14155.503,"text":"可不可以從11月1號開始全面對違規的廣告平台要去開罰我們已經開始在積極的開罰案件太少了啊我們會加強這不成比例嘛好委員我們會加強這三萬多件而已啊是網路比較難查還是實體比較難查我們兩個雙頭都並進那為什麼落差會這麼大"},{"start":14162.521,"end":14189.237,"text":"因為這個網路的稽查的這個frequency我們是由中央這邊一直不斷的在稽查那地方呢47件的實體稽查是由地方進行實體稽查所以我們有分工合作我真的有分工啦對那是我是跟你講就是說電子煙在網路上買很方便現在買賣電子煙有沒有違法有當然違法那為什麼我們查這個在網路上找這個電子煙到處都買得到"},{"start":14194.527,"end":14215.362,"text":"就表示他的處罰不夠重嘛好,我們會加強,一定會加強,因為我們也看到這個問題的嚴重性我再問一下部長,最高檢察署在今年的7月有發了一個新聞稿這個問一下,現在含尼古丁成分、電子煙的製造、輸入、販賣、轉讓等行為,現在有沒有顯示責任?"},{"start":14220.964,"end":14226.769,"text":"含電子煙成分含尼古丁成分的電子煙製造輸入販賣轉讓等行為有沒有負刑事責任?這不是很簡單的問題嗎?因為自從煙害"},{"start":14247.533,"end":14266.279,"text":"這個原來防治法修正通過之後有關於電子煙的部分全部都是行政划環那就產生一個法律問題也就是說它修正前如果已經移送到地檢署的案子在還沒有修正前它其實是用要釋法的行者來處理"},{"start":14267.379,"end":14282.762,"text":"那去年3月之後呢?3月之後就產生一個法律上的爭議那有關衛福部曾經發一個文給我們就是說這個要認為應該要適用這個煙毒品防治法行政划款來處理但是只有行政法嘛對"},{"start":14283.943,"end":14298.588,"text":"我們把這個法律議案交給最高檢署來做研議研議到最後的一個結果因為包括實務上的運作法案的判決都發生了起義最後最高檢署達成一個共識就是"},{"start":14299.128,"end":14305.289,"text":"那可是我按照這個最高檢察署的新聞稿那你們認為說這個要不要負刑事責任"},{"start":14326.199,"end":14350.848,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個主責機關是這個衛福部好那我來問衛福部來邱部長含泥骨錠成分電子煙的製造輸入販賣轉賣等行為是否要負刑事責任是否要修要事法要要事法你知道嗎你的態度是怎麼樣我的態度當然就是要人家管你人家管你那要不要修要事法"},{"start":14353.513,"end":14381.721,"text":"要不要修藥事法?還是就是按照這個現在就只有行政法而已?我們的態度怎麼樣?報告委員齁那個因為在這個那個冤害防治法過了以後它事實上已經是不屬於藥事法處理的範圍我當然知道啊所以最高檢察署才會有這個信用稿出來嘛因為在實務上有的起訴有的不起訴有的還起訴嘛目中一示啊那現在主管機關是衛福部嘛所以我問衛福部的態度"},{"start":14383.311,"end":14395.601,"text":"就說要不要現在是行政法那要不要修改要事法變成刑法嘛刑法的處罰要不要要不要往這個方向去走這立場態度啊政策啊我問一下部長"},{"start":14398.7,"end":14418.315,"text":"我想人家管理是必要的啦那看用什麼方式也要合乎它一個適用的法令啦現在的法令是用煙害防治法那煙害防治法就目前是...煙害防治法就是行政法院那現在叫高檢署它的問題就在於說每個法院判出來不一樣啊那所以咧所以你們總是有個方向嘛"},{"start":14428.772,"end":14434.494,"text":"行政法是比較能夠快速跟簡易的去面對這個問題所以為什麼我們現在態度還是用行政法來所以不打算用修改要事法就對了"},{"start":14451.041,"end":14472.856,"text":"我想我們都可以來研議啦,看怎麼樣能夠管理好,然後快速那目前就是有法已經有你們知不知道中央檢察署這個新聞稿?知道嗎?7月份的知不知道?阿對阿現在兩個都會過去了,到底衛福部態度是怎麼樣?沒有態度那難怪這個這麼氾濫阿"},{"start":14476.806,"end":14490.136,"text":"好 那個主席要不要私底下再跟我們留言然後回覆一下因為已經超過5分鐘了我看其他人都講很久阿有講很久阿我當然是要謹慎處理我都知道那個態度跟方向阿嚴加管理我知道有效管理這個是絕對堅持的原則那在至於說這對我來講齁 這個不是我要的答案"},{"start":14514.311,"end":14529.362,"text":"請你們來我辦公室做個說明跟報告好不好?你們的方向是怎麼樣?想在這邊那我也沒有個答案再問下去今天有點不好意思但是這個問題很嚴重實務上也出現了問題"},{"start":14534.264,"end":14551.749,"text":"有的結束有的不結束有的還結束所以最高檢察所才會發這個新聞稿而且大家都開過會啦阿兩個月都兩個月之後過去了一樣一樣大概沒有個方向阿這個問題是很嚴重我希望大家一起來做處理好不好好好謝謝我們李委員好接下來請我們洪孟凱委員"},{"start":14565.916,"end":14568.018,"text":"本席從11點55分到剛剛坐在現場,我聽了每一個委員的發言,我也聽了你的一個答詢。"},{"start":14585.403,"end":14611.681,"text":"說實在話這一些問題都在之前我們就已經詢問過甚至我記得第10屆擔任立法委員的時候你也有關心過但到此時此刻目前為止啊如同很多委員講的我剛上來之前Google打電子煙三個字不要說販賣平台啊他直接架設網站他直接告訴你衛教"},{"start":14613.373,"end":14637.15,"text":"他直接跟你講說有什麼樣的口味部長你可以想像嗎Google電子煙三個字有他的官方平台網站做的美輪美化點進去之後我都沒有辦法想像原來我現在不秀照片不秀圖片為什麼因為我不想幫他廣告但是我要告訴你的是他居然有"},{"start":14638.362,"end":14658.356,"text":"薄荷口味、可樂口味、粉紅檸檬口味、荔枝甘露口味、多肉葡萄口味你可以想像嗎?他告訴你官方福利3000元免運費他告訴你350塊優惠券立刻點、700塊優惠券立刻點這電子煙耶"},{"start":14664.171,"end":14679.831,"text":"這違法的當然違法啊但是為什麼會那麼容易那麼簡單Google我搜尋電子煙三個字我還不用任何的困難度沒有任何的審查就可以找到那剛剛署長"},{"start":14681.567,"end":14707.519,"text":"一直在講三萬多次我有看到這個新聞啊我那時候看到新聞說五十幾萬次然後就只有一千兩百多次的開罰我還想說是不是有人斷章取義啊怎麼可能就不是啊你今天衛福部的報告寫在裡面啊那換言之是什麼換言之是過去我們委員在立法院質詢告訴你衛福部"},{"start":14708.886,"end":14727.441,"text":"衝耳不聞當耳邊風還是一樣在網路上可以查得到啊還是一樣在網路上可以買得到啊也無怪乎剛剛賴斯堡委員他剛剛講比較快啦他的意思不是說7-11有在賣他的意思是說當你下訂了之後他直接運到7-11你可以直接在那邊網購領貨但這告訴我們什麼"},{"start":14732.541,"end":14758.815,"text":"這告訴我們過去這幾年完全沒有賀祖利公權力好像在放假衛福部好像在放假難道衛福部沒有半個人會用Google嗎難道我們的稽查小組我們的地方衛生局沒有半個人會Google我還不用你用什麼樣聰明的關鍵字我不是要你打品牌耶就打電子煙三個字就可以搜尋得到了結果你可以放任它持續在這邊運作"},{"start":14762.062,"end":14780.738,"text":"部長 是你知不知道這個狀況我不曉得這麼嚴重那要不要現在給你30秒你手機拿來Google一下我相信大家委員查這個要不要Google一下一定是這樣子那如果說到此時此刻我們的衛福部長、中央主管機關還說我不知道那麼嚴重那你覺得我們今天召委"},{"start":14790.678,"end":14805.677,"text":"給新興毒品防治專題報告衛福部真的有在重視嗎你都不知道電子煙有那麼嚴重那為什麼我們會強調電子煙因為太多的研究顯示電子煙它有可能就是毒品的入門嘛"},{"start":14806.926,"end":14834.381,"text":"他可能是載具他可能是吸引青少年以往傳統香煙他比較不碰但是電子煙炫麗有LED有不同的口味他容易去嘗試嘗試之後有可能裡面再加入毒品或者是他可能再進一步一步一步二步之後他就會吸毒了所以我們才要防制於未來而且此時此刻到目前為止加熱煙、電子煙都沒有辦法在市面上販售但是我們居然容許這樣子"},{"start":14835.063,"end":14859.634,"text":"不榮喜啊當然不榮喜啊不是部長我講了半天我們其實我們有沒有找速發部來問一下說Google在上面有這官方網站我今天已經不是討論什麼社群媒體平台我要滑到才看得到不是餒我今天不是討論說網購上面我要搜尋什麼關鍵字有一年半前兩年前"},{"start":14860.874,"end":14889.065,"text":"相關我們就已經質詢過那個時候也是我記得我有要求過我就說拍賣網站上面你不能有那些關鍵字查得到所以拍賣網站上沒有了兩年前我肯定但是怎麼在兩年後Google上面直接打他不是拍賣網站他直接下這官方網站然後上面有一堆衛教圖片做得美美的口味告訴你很多價錢甚至我查了我剛看了他裡面價錢都有"},{"start":14891.111,"end":14916.497,"text":"五百多塊到兩千塊部長找衛福部找相關部會一起來研議怎麼樣如果說我們衛福部都可以依照上個會期我們在討論的性私密影像防護有一些關鍵字什麼那個什麼私房"},{"start":14918.444,"end":14928.641,"text":"你看我真的是因為我沒有辦法想像那麼離譜你知道嗎我更沒有辦法想像說你不知道那麼離譜所以如果說我們都可以在短時間內就讓那些給遮蔽的話"},{"start":14932.033,"end":14953.752,"text":"我們的健康署已經盡全力尤其在網路上我看不到不好意思部長部長如果說你這要講盡全力我真的看不到我知道我們同盟很辛苦但是如果說到此時此刻Google都那麼簡單找到的話我真的看不到盡全力因為我不相信我們的署我們的部沒有半個人會用Google"},{"start":14954.71,"end":14976.776,"text":"我不相信我們的署、我們的部在今天收集相關的專案報告的時候沒有想過說我來查看看現在可以買到嗎?哎呦,怎麼會在陽中?結果部長不知道,然後下面的人大家都不知道我不是不知道,我是說陽中姓的就對了對啊,那陽中你不知道啊因為我們非常積極在已經在處理查緝,而且跟網路的媒體的"},{"start":14977.737,"end":14988.71,"text":"一直開會一直開會在努力了如果說你要講一直開會我真的看不到你的努力但是我要求我也麻煩我也拜託我也認為"},{"start":14990.632,"end":15015.372,"text":"真的這個事情不要再讓我們再一次再講了因為如果說還有那麼方便可以讓民眾就是查得到違禁品購買到違禁品並且能夠這樣子如此大剌剌的廣告的話那是狠狠的打我們民進黨政府的幾巴掌我覺得絕對不允許謝謝好我們一定會更加強力道請放心好謝謝黃門凱委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請林國成委員質詢"},{"start":15029.107,"end":15052.579,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請邱部長、健康署署長、警政署代表警政署來委員好"},{"start":15053.959,"end":15064.722,"text":"邱部長我剛剛我們立法院同事一直朝著這些這個電子煙這個問題確確實實新興行業"},{"start":15070.433,"end":15089.651,"text":"確實在這個電子煙的方面所以因為這樣我們主席特別排這個議程也就是去凸顯這個新興行業的問題當然要解決那我也知道邱部長日理萬機說實在的你是管政策"},{"start":15090.865,"end":15118.092,"text":"那這個主管機關就是國建署所以署長你要替部長分憂解勞既然這個問題這麼嚴重那你要提出解決之道啊不是讓我們立法委員來逼部長當然部長要負全部政治責任但是問題出來署長一定要去做一些研究應應對策因為"},{"start":15120.673,"end":15146.682,"text":"煙害黃志華的主管機關是你當然部長要該瓜承受可是你做得好部長就不會被K嘛我看邱部長很認真嘛你知道嗎所以署長我們今天就來探我說實在的煙毒不分家這個嚴重性所以電子煙就會成為真正的破口"},{"start":15148.072,"end":15167.105,"text":"所以我只有建議部長你要督促你把蘇耀石跟那個找來到底尼古丁是行政法或者到底幾種的這些毒品它是屬於第幾級你們要把它分得很清楚"},{"start":15167.825,"end":15196.564,"text":"如果你肯定那就行政法如果是毒品是安慰他命那當然就是一定是違反這些毒品管制的辦法所以為什麼會說電子煙是跟毒品有關因為新興行業電子煙它可以藏了很多毒品所以根據啊刑事警察局他們的1月份到8月份的統計"},{"start":15200.494,"end":15218.81,"text":"1415件這當中喔有52.6%是常有毒品那這代表什麼就代表這個問題是非常嚴重的所以為什麼我要請警政署代表上來當然有毒品警政署要去處理"},{"start":15219.531,"end":15247.231,"text":"那行政法當然是國建署要去處理那這個部分怎麼解決呢當然一定要一定要什麼統合所有的所有的有關規定所以請部長在行政院裡面成立一個重整的小組新興行業一定要有新的方法去對待他我覺得這個非常重要就像前幾天啊"},{"start":15248.292,"end":15261.725,"text":"10月18號阿在我們台北市東府15歲的少年阿就是因為電子煙然後夾帶毒品喝了抽了以後車子一撞下去欸很可憐欸32傷欸阿這個是什麼"},{"start":15266.209,"end":15290.705,"text":"始作俑則就是這個電子煙的毒品作祟嘛所以這個部分是要非常非常重要的所以我還是真的要滿期待部長你管政策當然說怪你做不好這個對你也不公平啊但是你管政策你要責成你的健康局你要跨部會的聯絡警政署"},{"start":15291.545,"end":15305.635,"text":"還有食藥署這是你可以統合把它歸納起來新興行業自然就會消滅而因為我們政府現在啊忽略到一個問題新興行業不是只有詐騙欸"},{"start":15307.516,"end":15335.88,"text":"詐騙當然是重點但是這些電子煙也是破口欸不能因為就是那個防止詐騙全部的精神都做這裡可是這裡這個電子煙的新興行業確確實實是要危害的所以我要建議部長做統合工作盡快把它做成一個規定讓行政院做一個跨部會的結合"},{"start":15336.48,"end":15360.146,"text":"到底是誰要來指責當然行政法是我們那個國建署當然違反毒品的是刑事警察局他們要去做那如果統籌一個SOP我想那打擊犯罪還有兼顧那個淹害黃志華這樣把他併那個併起來我相信這個問題是會解決的"},{"start":15362.287,"end":15383.017,"text":"部長,你同意我的說法嗎?好,謝謝委員,我非常同意。第一個,我先補充一下,就是很感謝昭偉排這個題目,我們是非常,衛福部跟相關的單位是非常重視這個主題,而且認為它是非常嚴重的。我剛剛只是說覺得網路上,這是超過我"},{"start":15383.897,"end":15408.482,"text":"一起的那種嚴重不是說這個問題不嚴重這要講清楚就我很感謝排這個主題那行政院也已經有這樣的一個反毒的一個計畫那我們會看整個SOP是不是需要再做我們一定擔負起責任來做檢討讓他更有效率更快速以讓大家前面來安心"},{"start":15409.162,"end":15419.17,"text":"是啊 那個數位部你把它可以跨部會把它往樓下啦這樣的話對 這樣的話這個問題才會解決啦不要只有打炸打炸可是這個毒品在這裡是要戒屍防焚的情況之下非常嚴重的所以這個事情還有國建署還有那個警察那個那個警政署一定要負起這些責任不能殘害這些我們的下一代這是非常殘忍的"},{"start":15438.745,"end":15439.625,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長"},{"start":15467.545,"end":15469.692,"text":"還有保護社公司司長,謝謝"},{"start":15481.92,"end":15484.181,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為"},{"start":15502.046,"end":15518.072,"text":"就是這個所謂的五寶媽的這個網紅結果呢這個小孩卻全身被虐待全身都是傷我想請教一下部長因為我們今天的主題就是來防治這個兒虐嘛是我們對這件事情我們之後有我們現在有什麼測定的作為嗎在這個事件之後我們有嗎"},{"start":15525.165,"end":15544.042,"text":"我們第一個當然就強化歐少保護的三級的預防保護從初級方面我們加強113保護的專線的宣導我想聽部長回答好像並不是那麼清楚我想因為我時間有限這些策定作為請你再提供書面的"},{"start":15544.742,"end":15559.412,"text":"報告給我那我就直接再來講這個重點我認為我們這個兩歲的生命不能夠就這樣子隕落其中有一個很重要的題目我們的缺漏就是有關於委託監護這件事情不能夠所託非人"},{"start":15560.953,"end":15585.061,"text":"這個案子就如同我剛剛講的這個生父在今年的2月29日前往了戶政事務所正式的把這個男童的監護權委託了這個無保媽但這個無保媽其實並不是一個適合照顧孩子的人最後導致這個孩子虐死那所以重點其實在於這個委託監護事實上我們現在常見的申請委託監護可能是隔代教養單親家庭或者是單身的或是同志或是其他特殊狀況的"},{"start":15586.201,"end":15610.711,"text":"的家庭他們沒有辦法照顧孩子所以他就會把孩子的監護權改定為他人而這件事情就是這樣發生的因為我們現在辦理委託監護非常簡單只要依據民法1092條他只要因為特定事蹟事項他就可以書面來委託他人行使監護的職務而辦理的方式只要代理身分證授權書"},{"start":15612.532,"end":15628.511,"text":"還有未成年的子女的戶口名簿他就可以去任何一個戶政事務所來去做辦理那所以呢我們現在呢這個流程就是這樣子迅速的就辦妥了你覺得他有沒有就是有一些問題要來去處理呢"},{"start":15630.394,"end":15655.512,"text":"市長跟委員說明的確這樣子看起來在這一塊是過去我們比較沒有跟民政單位做勾結的部分對那我想就是說針對因為我們現在內政部護政事務調到的資料是112年未成年人的監護登記就有3263人每一年的數字都差不多所以這裡面到底托付的對象是不是適合"},{"start":15656.773,"end":15682.369,"text":"我們無法得知啦所以我想要要求兩件事情就是第一個請你們跟內政部來一起分析這3263人的監護登記狀況大約是什麼樣子的狀況是改為非親屬來照顧呢還是是由親屬來照顧我希望我們這一塊要非常的明確再來因為委託監護事實上就是照顧這個小孩我們對於基養家庭其實是有一套標準的"},{"start":15683.149,"end":15704.142,"text":"那我們是不是可以比照這個標準來評估當他脫為非親屬的時候我們來評估他是不是適合照顧小孩的人這部分是不是也可以來研擬做個評估現行兒權法裡頭對於委託給不適任人員是違法的這有相關規定那至於說這個"},{"start":15705.903,"end":15718.29,"text":"我知道但是問題是我們現在就是這種狀況就是有發生嘛大家事實上也非常清楚嘛我們可能朋友的朋友我們覺得這個保姆很好他也可能或是可能只是長輩而已他也不是保姆我們就會委託給他嘛那我覺得這個是現在這個問題是他委託了這個監護喔"},{"start":15723.132,"end":15723.612,"text":"請委員給一些時間,三個月可以嗎?兩個月好不好?"},{"start":15747.036,"end":15747.676,"text":"訪視記錄要確實遵守訪視期限"},{"start":15770.487,"end":15796.409,"text":"也就是說在我們的訪視規定裡面本來就有講啊就是未滿6個月的開案前6個未滿6歲的個案開案的前6個月應該要訪視兩次嘛但是這一次呢其實沒有遵守相關的規範第二個是當我們發現兒童有不明傷口的時候要啟動一個通報的機制但是這一次也沒有通報所以以至於我們錯失了搶救凱開的時間點第三個是我們的外聘督導不能都是同一位"},{"start":15797.129,"end":15813.259,"text":"應該要透過不同的專家學者來協助督導社工執行業務的狀況所以這些缺失我們沒有積極的跟社工單位或是相關的團體來討論要怎麼樣避免再次發生的這樣子不幸的事件我們有做相關的討論了嗎"},{"start":15816.707,"end":15843.146,"text":"各位委員報告我們在凱凱案之後我們對於這個收出養案件的這個評估已經做過一些相關的討論對這些流程上面有第一個是當然是我們要求這個收出養單位他其實必須要是有外聘督導不能夠是自己裡面的人那第二個是對於這個如果放在這個保母家的話我們現在只要收出養孩子的安置都必須是要由縣市政府來做評估"},{"start":15843.906,"end":15843.926,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":15859.278,"end":15859.398,"text":"那確實執行的狀況呢?"},{"start":15876.56,"end":15878.502,"text":"現實執行是最關鍵的地方確實掌握才能避免這些憾事發生"},{"start":15890.919,"end":15914.106,"text":"今天我們剛好討論的題目都跟保母有關可是我們都是在重大事件之後甚至是孩子傷亡之後我們才去廢除他的保母登記證但是我們其實都有設置居家托育中心而且中心其實都有訪視員會到保母家來進行訪視輔導我們應該要怎麼樣來透過訪視及早找出不適任的保母避免這一件事情再次發生所以我想說就是說"},{"start":15915.342,"end":15941.114,"text":"我們其實這一套這個防治機制呢 輔導管理方法其實已經是24年了啦 2000年到現在已經24年我們依據兒少法25、26條以及26條之一的相關規定其實都有去輔導但是退場的部分是沒有落實的我們是不是可以需要多少的時間來把這件事情來落實呢是不是可以在0到2歲托育法規的草案推出之前我們來把這件事情處理好"},{"start":15943.223,"end":15957.736,"text":"跟委員報告大概是第一個當然是在法律上面我們也希望再加強就是托育專法裡面我會增加強度那在還沒有法定過之前我們其實針對於如果是保姆照顧全日托跟夜間托育的還有一些比較特殊狀況比如說發展遲緩的這樣子的"},{"start":15959.918,"end":15960.038,"text":"主席"},{"start":15978.661,"end":16000.41,"text":"好,因為我想這個不預警的方式其實坦白說過去雖然是不是說我也是不預警可是事實上有時候都是可以猜得到也都是有所以我覺得我們再來詳細的討論到底確實要如何來執行這件事情好不好然後最後一題啦,抱歉再給我一點時間很快就是請法務部部長、司長可以請回我們請法務部一下"},{"start":16005.748,"end":16023.245,"text":"我想針對這個毒價的問題來跟法務部做一個討論就是說在12月8號三讀了其實我們是有一些關於毒價的處罰但是立法之後我想最近新聞真的非常多這兩個禮拜就有三則的新聞在講說造成毒價造成的危害像是我們9月17號"},{"start":16024.526,"end":16035.746,"text":"新竹獨駕造成祖孫一死一重傷9月底又是獨駕新北土城分局所清水派出所的所長在這過程中不幸殉職"},{"start":16037.555,"end":16061.344,"text":"10月12日,獨駕肇事,通緝犯撞死高雄的90多歲阿嬤10月13日,新北的男獨駕還嗆騎士竟然到刑警踢到鐵板被逮。但我想要知道為什麼獨駕這麼難處理,因為其實取締相對來說是困難的而且吸毒性屬於一個隱匿性行為,很多時候都是在車禍之後我們才發現他是獨駕"},{"start":16064.745,"end":16079.827,"text":"而且呢就是毒價裡面的這個喪屍毒品呢是屬於麻醉的依託名指都是用電子煙來提供給這個電子煙族群所以雖然衛福部在9月已經列為三級毒品但是剛剛大家都已經講了嘛其實都已經賣翻了"},{"start":16080.948,"end":16099.061,"text":"大家就以為這只是個電子煙可是不知不覺卻成為了毒販還邊開車邊吸毒造成了我們非常大的一個公共危險那我們其實就統計分析了一下毒價的再販率是大概是44%比我們的酒駕再販率還高可是我們毒價移送公共危險罪卻不到10%為什麼這麼困難"},{"start":16101.95,"end":16118.757,"text":"跟委員報告,我們這個刑法第185條之3的毒價的規定在去年修正之後有關你這個毒價的這個適用毒品達到一定預值就會過成185條之3的第3款"},{"start":16123.399,"end":16144.633,"text":"的規定所以我們在去年那個食藥署有公布了我記得30幾項的預指所以只要尿液檢出來有超過那個預指就會構成185條之3的第3款的處罰規定但是如果他沒有達到那個預指就會跳到185條之3第4款"},{"start":16147.495,"end":16164.54,"text":"但這個時候我們要證明它不能安全駕駛對 我覺得這就是問題齁因為我們必須要去證明它能不能安全駕駛那這就會陷入就是說我們必須要去調查發生車禍的一個因果關係是什麼嘛 對不對就會在這時候就變成是這個樣子我想吸毒就是違法啦齁因為我時間有限了齁"},{"start":16165.14,"end":16188.552,"text":"我就快快講一下就是說我們是不是可以針對我們法規周全的問題來研商研商來考慮說毒價造成的事故其實常常比酒價的惡性更重大這是嚴重的侵害了社會治安的公共危險的行為所以為了保護我們的國人保護我們的警員我們是不是可以討論只要使用毒品駕車就可以以公共危險罪來論罪呢我們是不是可以來研議討論一下這件事情"},{"start":16190.414,"end":16206.851,"text":"跟委員報告185條之3修正過後我剛剛跟委員報告只要達到那個預指尿液檢出來對可是你剛剛還有說不只要是我們還要討論是不是能夠安全駕駛對安全駕駛那部分是沒有達到那個預指的情況之下"},{"start":16208.452,"end":16229.578,"text":"對我知道對我知道所以我的意思是說因為我們現在的公共危險所以起訴率其實是非常低嘛是對啊所以可是有大量的可能都在於這個要論證是不是屬於安全的駕駛能不能安全駕駛這件事情根本包括因為這個183的第三管修正沒過多少可能沒多久可能這個新的案子的一個計算統計計算還沒出來所以這個我們會加強的來拜託民進黨官針對這一邊這個問題來處理"},{"start":16237.418,"end":16239.019,"text":"王小林委員王小林委員王小林委員不在繼續請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":16266.638,"end":16269.613,"text":"謝謝主席,有請衛福部部長還有教育部,謝謝"},{"start":16275.663,"end":16303.809,"text":"委員好部長跟學特斯司長好同影片幫我按下一張謝謝部長我一直在跟你討論關於校園兒少不當對待的事情不應該成為兒少法的裁罰黑數不知道部長上任至今我來質詢過非常多次不知道部長有沒有掌握目前的進度我當時的說在衛福部的內部分案的做法會導致很多兒少加害者繼續在兒少法"},{"start":16304.449,"end":16328.665,"text":"是你們自己兒少跑的框架裡面繼續被隱形、被吃案教育部也給我們相關的回文說目前只剩下少數縣市的補證資料從提案到今天已經半年過去目前的裁罰公告進度如何可不可以請兩位做個回應好,是的,是不是好,沒關係,看起來沒有掌握那我來告訴你部長、司長請繼續聽,來下一頁"},{"start":16331.656,"end":16340.677,"text":"目前我們手上有幾個新聞光是這個查得到的新聞還不含沒有報出來的新聞在兒少法財閥專區依然一片空白"},{"start":16342.148,"end":16366.735,"text":"為什麼會這樣?你們的說法告訴我說因為他要走司法流程他沒有司法流程走完他就沒有辦法被公告所以到他相關的判決完成前只要當事人這個加害者當事人他被解除羈押他就繼續在民間大搖大擺他可以開課他可以開班他可以用各式各樣的名義在民間收小孩進來上他的課"},{"start":16368.015,"end":16368.275,"text":"鄧委員說明"},{"start":16385.854,"end":16413.605,"text":"其實行政法跟這個刑事法是兩個病例我當然知道可是我一再來這裡所以你們要告訴我怎麼辦嗎如果我今天要幫我的小孩去報名一個外面的課程可是衛福部這個兒少財法專區卻告訴我說家長們不用擔心你到我們的網站上來可以查一查陳佩玉是不是加害曾經有加害的案例陳佩玉是不是...但是因為陳佩玉的案件還沒有走完那你們難道沒有做法可以做嗎如果按照你的說法我跟妳分享下一個案例來下一頁"},{"start":16414.945,"end":16439.435,"text":"凱凱案大家很心痛而且全台灣都在矚目於是呢12月凱凱過世2024年3月新聞揭露很快的癥結起訴可是我要說要不是因為凱凱案有這麼高的關注度他的偵查起訴也不會這麼快於是你們財閥公告就很快有相關的案例可以讓我們去理解難道我們每一個孩子都要像凱凱一樣那麼慘加害人的名字才可以快速被看見嗎"},{"start":16444.309,"end":16446.13,"text":"臺灣的家長對於我們政府沒有信心因為有非常非常多的案子"},{"start":16473.7,"end":16493.385,"text":"一而再、一而再、再而三的就發生這個事情8月臺中6歲童遭虐捏脖子壓制者手全身傷施暴者是園長9月性侵竹北3個男童陽光國立大學生10月新竹3歲小孩昏厥送醫竟然是健身教練虐到睾丸發黑這些都是友善新聞"},{"start":16493.985,"end":16494.245,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16509.965,"end":16534.635,"text":"自從這個委員關心特別是家外的不當對待希望能夠還有校外的不當對待這些事情對就是校外就是他們的關係不是主要照顧者這類的那我們現在都以岸管制那所以我們3個月都會定期去跟縣市做一些勾結核對3個月喔我們在自己跟縣市政府3個月會做定期的聯繫會議來做"},{"start":16536.716,"end":16536.896,"text":"主席"},{"start":16566.761,"end":16592.574,"text":"三個月這裡面的人如果再度做了什麼樣的壞事我們如何確保孩子的安全我覺得我們真的很難跟家長交代我們真的很難跟這些受害的小孩交代假設三個月你們真的也開成了會開成了會之後最後的決議一樣告訴我因為司法判決還沒有走完尚未定念所以他不能上兒少法財法專區被公告姓名那不就是回到原點了嗎"},{"start":16593.534,"end":16594.034,"text":"行政調查的"},{"start":16612.145,"end":16614.386,"text":"目前我們的行政規定原則上是4個月啦最長就是原則上就是說能夠超過的話就4個月因為這個4個月是按照這個性侵"},{"start":16638.741,"end":16652.009,"text":"信騷的這個相關法規規定的最長4個月所以難道好那所以你的意思是告訴我說如果在相關法規我們表定4個月那難道我們要回來談修法嗎那就又回到之前我已經問過兒少全法修法進途到底是什麼"},{"start":16653.749,"end":16653.909,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16669.279,"end":16687.733,"text":"沒有通報到衛福部這邊來的你們兩個系統沒有勾結那在我們不斷的不斷的跟你們開會溝通並且我們用力的監督我們現在看到教育部在幼教法的部分跟兒少法的部分目前放在一起可是我們點進去看那個系統一、兩個系統長得完全不一樣介面長得完全不一樣"},{"start":16689.875,"end":16708.041,"text":"很難用啦齁但是我知道你們我看你們有誠意了你們知道把那個兒少法的部分跟幼教法加在一起讓家長可以快速查詢這個部分我要先快速給予肯定可是我相信整個系統整個平台都可以更加的好用然後讓家長一鍵查詢可是還是要回到兒少事件調查跟裁罰公告我認為應該要在一個月內告訴大家你們可以更積極的怎麼往下做而不是只有在告訴我們四個月法規範是四個月或者是三個月會開一次會議大家來"},{"start":16719.665,"end":16722.006,"text":"應該是說縣市都在調查中那如果他還沒有公告就表示他在進行中"},{"start":16743.943,"end":16760.492,"text":"我想委員提的這個很重要,如果按照實証不計級,我想我們來演繹看看有更快速的保護我們兒少的一定要第一時間就能夠保護,一定要用各種方法我們來努力"},{"start":16761.613,"end":16787.749,"text":"好 那我要再一次說我並不是說台北市做得好其實台北市那個案子要不是鬧得很大其實它也不會走這麼快我們實話實說所以我只是要告訴部長也告訴司長您齁我們目前遇到的困境就是這樣假設所有立委辦公室都會收到跟兒少的陳情最大的破口可能就是我剛剛講的那件事情不管你們是因為3個月才開一次會還是相關的法規範說4個月才要再開一次會所有這些中間的空洞"},{"start":16788.79,"end":16796.256,"text":"會讓這些犯法的大人一而再再而三繼續在民間流竄我要再次強調這些事情所以他可以不要進補習班"},{"start":16798.103,"end":16824.291,"text":"因為補習班他有相關的法規範要去查詢他自己光是在網路上在任何的報名平台他就可以開班授課他取名叫烘魚老師叫什麼大頭魚老師然後過去他所有的東西都不會被查到然後他繼續招生授課然後繼續殘害我們的小孩我們真的不知道什麼時候會再一個悲傷的個案產生所以我要真的積極我一而再再而三每次來衛環委員會都在講這個題目要拜託"},{"start":16825.731,"end":16829.013,"text":"好 我們也會再繼續追蹤 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長、市長接續我們請陳育晴委員質詢對不起 郭育晴累了齁"},{"start":16849.62,"end":16855.543,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長還有教育部司長謝謝"},{"start":16861.926,"end":16887.857,"text":"好 部長好 司長好那我想這個我今天不會佔用太多的時間我剛剛看其實大家都很辛苦然後每個人都有超時是不是好 那我主要是想要讓兩位大家都知道這個臺灣的醫護荒的一個問題那當然其實可以歸納以下的一些狀況然後包含是人力的資源那個不足然後再來就是工作環境"},{"start":16888.698,"end":16901.735,"text":"所以其實人力的不足、工作的環境還有待遇加急的部分那我們知道其實在這個9月30號這個人事行政總處徵取了各個機關部會的一個會議9月30號我們已經有達成一點共識了"},{"start":16906.461,"end":16908.342,"text":"我今天比較想要了解、知道的是這個表24當中"},{"start":16928.711,"end":16953.097,"text":"其實就剛剛其實非常謝謝那個培育委員有特別提到的凱凱案啦凱凱案我之前上一個會期到這個會期我大概質詢了八次了吧八次了那主要是因為在還沒有更改歷史之前其實他的其中一個主管機關也是我們的教育部嘛所以我質詢了很多次同樣的這個部分我要再來問一下下了這個表24當中包含"},{"start":16953.877,"end":16978.287,"text":"公立醫療院所的各式的醫事人員另外呢也有包含公立學校但為什麼我要特別把公立學校的這個部分要圈起來再加一個問號是我們校護的部分很多人沒有都沒有特別注意到校護但是我想要請教一下部長部長你知道現在校園喔光是自傷自殺"},{"start":16979.828,"end":16984.697,"text":"這5年當中那個比例人數增加幾倍 您知道這個數據嗎"},{"start":16986.974,"end":17012.344,"text":"每關係回答五到十倍已經暴增了五到十倍前幾年是七倍現在是五到十倍也就是說校戶的工作繁重他們其實在面臨一個人要負責大概一千個一千個學校的人員不管是自殺自傷被霸凌傷害受傷"},{"start":17013.484,"end":17042.098,"text":"其實校護人員大家認為他們的工作好像沒有醫護人員這麼的忙錯了我們看到很多的第一線在學校服務的校護人員他們面臨的身心上的壓力碰到孩子們從樓上掉下來之後他們的緊急的處理他們是第一線但往往因為人力的配置這也是另外一個問題我們回到教育部的質詢的時候我們再來好好討論但我現在想要知道的就是"},{"start":17043.339,"end":17047.248,"text":"醫事人員的加擠我們已經送行政院在爭取當中"},{"start":17048.592,"end":17049.372,"text":"我先報告一下因為我也擔任過臺灣大學"},{"start":17078.339,"end":17078.679,"text":"教育部說法"},{"start":17107.401,"end":17132.686,"text":"因為教育部其實10月15號你們有說我們可能還要再彙整一下問一下這個地方比方說這個有一個公文這是給這個雲林縣我們還要彙整這個地方的部分可是就我剛剛講的時間去9月30號到10月17號這中間這中間其實我們是有很多時間可以跟衛福部來溝通這一塊的那消護人員的這個加緊的部分要如何納入"},{"start":17134.247,"end":17151.997,"text":"委員報告因為校戶是依照學校衛生法來所設置的所以是屬於教育部主管的範圍不過過去在待遇的這個部分公立學校的校戶都是比照公立醫療院所的這個醫事人員所以我想"},{"start":17152.637,"end":17153.217,"text":"我們白話一點來講,就是說地方政府"},{"start":17174.406,"end":17201.495,"text":"也要徵詢他們有沒有這個預算跟財源好那如果會診之後發現地方政府說我沒有錢請問教育部這個部分我們可以補上嗎這個部分我們會回去跟部長報告看看部裡頭怎麼樣的方式來協助地方政府所以現在我們得到了一個初步的答案是校戶的部分他們的家籍的部分我們要跟地方政府先"},{"start":17205.007,"end":17224.426,"text":"應該說過去公立學校的校戶都跟公立醫療院所意識的待遇是一樣的那將來方向應該也是朝這個方向去做那所以我想這個調整的時候應該做整體的思考啦那我想收集地方的意見應該將來也是呈報給行政院做整體的一個考慮"},{"start":17224.966,"end":17236.685,"text":"好 因為他既然都在表24當中其實就不應該被讀漏嘛因為他也是在這個表24的所有的醫護人員的這個範圍之內嘛那這個部分我們最快什麼時候可以知道"},{"start":17243.59,"end":17262.044,"text":"10月底之後我們陸陸續續可能也要給校戶們他們有一些期待啊畢竟他們的工作量是非常非常的重啊但是在這個人力的配置的部分我們可能回教育部我們再來質詢所以這部分我們初步得到了教育部這邊10月底之前會彙整整個所有地方政府的"},{"start":17262.725,"end":17262.745,"text":"謝謝國務委員"},{"start":17284.934,"end":17303.406,"text":"謝謝部長、市長鄭振全委員鄭振全委員鄭振全委員不在接下來我們請徐滬葵委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們邱部長部長請"},{"start":17307.813,"end":17328.805,"text":"委員好,保定辛苦部長,我想部長來自醫界也很關心整個這個我們這個全國的一個醫療環境那在這邊本席也要針對我們屏東的這個醫療環境跟我們所有的這個醫護人員的一個權益保定請命,請他保定來道上"},{"start":17328.885,"end":17330.125,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為"},{"start":17352.872,"end":17361.836,"text":"部長我想這邊有幾個問題要請部長幫忙第一就是我們現在小琉球的一年的遊客量超過一百萬人次那其中很多年輕人都在喘水、在生水那以往有發生所謂的潛水負病的一個狀況"},{"start":17378.183,"end":17392.122,"text":"那有時候必須等到我們的救護船或是海巡的船要上過台灣本島來做處理有時候怕延誤了那個時效那針對這個部分能不能在小琉球在地有一個高壓氧的一個設備的一個處理"},{"start":17394.321,"end":17409.626,"text":"報告委員,這個公家養應該是要在醫療機構,那小琉球可能招委最清楚,大概有哪些你們都很清楚,可能要有適當的醫療機構來"},{"start":17412.134,"end":17427.695,"text":"來安排這當然是有一定的困難度所以才需要在這邊提這個問題阿米是不是針對這個部分怎麼樣來做一個配套措施我想我們在做醫療的人就是只要人民有需求我們就會"},{"start":17428.957,"end":17432.54,"text":"只是說高家揚基本上他的設備是必須要有專門的地方後面當然要有醫療的一個後備當然更重要要有專業的人才"},{"start":17446.572,"end":17463.99,"text":"我們可以來研議看看好不好第一個針對我們這個屏東榮總的一個問題我想我們屏東榮總界風光開幕那當然我們的整個屏東這個周邊的這個所謂的醫療的一個需求也大家都很期待"},{"start":17464.611,"end":17468.834,"text":"本席上任之後我們也積極跟人事行政總署有爭取了一個醫事的一個緣額那今年9月份我們"},{"start":17483.545,"end":17510.407,"text":"人事總署有核電的新增加一個月額但是現在平融面臨的問題就是趕快高薪請不到醫護人力這部分衛福部能不能給予適當的協助平東融總如果以平東融總他是退伍會的體系我們醫師是當然有責任來看怎麼樣的一個讓醫療資源充實來督促或者跟"},{"start":17512.328,"end":17516.811,"text":"退伍會來商量我認為這個社會在做事情就是這樣不用分彼此要做的大家來做這個大概沒有問題我覺得說如果"},{"start":17530.758,"end":17548.169,"text":"平東農種這個問題我其實也早有所聞,我想我們再去了解他的需求,然後再跟退伍總是這個裡面設備這麼先進,大家都期待有一個最好的醫療服務,卻沒有我們的醫護人員說不到位,這有點說不過去當然他今天高雄可能有在合作"},{"start":17556.733,"end":17578.048,"text":"有聽到嗎?但是我也有感受到處理啊?可以啊,一定到處理啊。鳳長年,我知道前陣子有看恆春旅遊醫院跟玻璃屏東醫院嗎?是。那在這邊當然兩個醫院還是有一些的問題存在啦。當然恆春旅遊醫院去年小英中通衝箭起火的時候"},{"start":17580.129,"end":17601.07,"text":"有代言說要增加一個新導管這些設備但是目前為止都還沒有到位那昨天市長我有跟你們問這個問題那尤其我們未來我們有可能我們的恆春旅遊醫院要合作到台東這邊尤其大陸這邊是有可能要到我們的恆春旅遊醫院那這個部分我們的恆春旅遊醫院的"},{"start":17601.83,"end":17614.599,"text":"人力也是明顯的不足,然後尤其我們現在一個健保電子的問題,也有出現一個很大的瓶頸,這個部長是不是要來代表說?我想因為我們現在急性的醫療大樓已經是古年的漏層了,那相關的醫療設備我們就要來補充,包括核死共振,那現在電腦斷層這個部分,還有特別是單側的心腦管的檢查儀這個部分,"},{"start":17632.511,"end":17656.851,"text":"總共大概補助了一億我們也用醫中計畫來補助一些專科的醫師我們也希望他原來50床能夠擴展到99床來成為那個地區更大的照顧力量至於新導管方面我們會大概會後來加強希望他能夠成為中度的急救醫院"},{"start":17659.13,"end":17673.137,"text":"特別是另外在公共衛生的護士方面也會跟他加強那特別是感謝屏東縣政府協助醫護、宿舍這樣子我們整體來增加他的戰力部長,現在你說的這些東西都是我們計畫中的事情"},{"start":17676.078,"end":17679.9,"text":"但是本市現在要問的是,因為鄉親都會問說,這要叫做到底當時可以實現,當時可以給他們,不用因為要做一個青樓館,還要往後送,這部門大家都很歡樂,因為畢竟這個是救命的一個醫療的服務。"},{"start":17693.478,"end":17707.284,"text":"設備是比較簡單,有時候人力,而且人力要值,就像澎湖醫院有一個醫生過了幾十年,才24年所以部長在這裡不是要特別拜託你,你就有那個設備,你就沒有那個人力,人力要怎麼改革才是問題嘛你可以承諾明年中或明年底可以完成,這也是要有一個答案啊醫師師父有什麼意見嗎?好,退伍會嗎?醫護會?"},{"start":17723.186,"end":17747.052,"text":"我最喜歡的那個我講我們這個跟衣服會那邊來把人力來充實我們希望我現在也不敢跟你保證哪一天但是我想我們用最快的速度來補充心臟的那個因為這個醫師的調度有時候是不是那麼容易但是"},{"start":17748.399,"end":17769.131,"text":"既然這個地方有這麼多、這麼、這麼的需求我想我們一定克服萬難用最快的速度來找到新臟科的醫療我也是要跟你提醒我們鄉村半島不是只有那個居住人口幾十萬人像一年有好幾百萬的旅遊人士在那裡對這馬上會發生這種馬上會出現的事情是啊是啊所以你一定要加快時程一定一定尤其你的"},{"start":17774.734,"end":17775.414,"text":"市務委員很尊實、很讚"},{"start":17804.694,"end":17830.673,"text":"接著我們請楊耀委員質詢謝謝主席主席我先請一下法務部郭市長法務部郭市長委員好市長好市長我們就是"},{"start":17832.409,"end":17858.847,"text":"最近有多起毒價的事件大概都是駕駛在西石添加了伊多米子的電子煙就是我們一般講的喪屍煙彈伊多米子它本身就是一個比較短效性的靜脈麻醉藥物所構成那它會導致"},{"start":17861.741,"end":17886.597,"text":"昏迷意識不清然後呢他又做成煙彈很多抽煙的人呢其實是很喜歡在車上抽煙的根據我的田野調查很多抽煙的人其實是喜歡在車上抽煙那可是那他的毒性再搭配他的行為"},{"start":17888.004,"end":17908.561,"text":"然後又是一個根據社會觀察很常結合的行為稀釋上次煙彈跟駕車一起那就會造成很大的公眾的風險我不知道為什麼"},{"start":17910.221,"end":17926.374,"text":"這個是列第三級毒品那三四級毒品其實它是沒有刑責的對不對市長跟委員報告要列為哪一個等級的毒品是要經過我們法務部跟衛福部成立的毒品審議委員會來審議那"},{"start":17929.176,"end":17947.282,"text":"內委何種級的這個毒品他大概有三個要件一個就是成癮性、一個濫用性、一個對社會的危害性這三個特性來做評估啊啊所以這個一支啊那個抱歉因為現在也有點混亂"},{"start":17950.478,"end":17960.622,"text":"一頭米子是在6月份把它列為三級毒品然後8月份你的行政院公告開始生效那市長我這樣子講就是你剛才講的三個標準一個是濫用性"},{"start":17966.664,"end":17980.226,"text":"一個是成癮性那這兩個這兩個上次煙彈好像都還蠻還蠻符合的第三個就更更符合因為我剛剛講了就是他他他可以搭配的的搭配"},{"start":17981.653,"end":18001.167,"text":"搭配一般生活在交通工具上就可以邊做邊吸食所以這個是不是在下一次因為我覺得這個不把它加重罰則的話以後不幸的事件會持續發生"},{"start":18002.808,"end":18030.004,"text":"跟委員報告就是伊東米子是不是要升級到二級毒品這件事情本部部長已經交代了只是然後我們禮拜一就是這個禮拜一已經發文給各機關在徵詢收集意見收集完了之後我們預計在11月的下旬或12月初將會召開毒品審議委員會把這些資料再提供給獨省委員會的委員來審酌"},{"start":18031.605,"end":18057.481,"text":"是不是要把它升級為二級毒品來管制當然必須要經過審查委員會不過還是希望部裡面這邊有遇到因為開會的時間是你們可以決定的所以必須要盡速的因應社會現象的產生提出解決的方案好不好謝謝市長請回"},{"start":18061.781,"end":18084.829,"text":"國建署今天副署長來阿副署長國建署阿你們署長怎麼沒有來跟委員報告一下吳署長因為去韓國開一個加拿大公共衛生的學校他有論文我們台灣的一些成果的發表吳署長你請坐我問吳署長就好"},{"start":18090.285,"end":18091.246,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為"},{"start":18114.463,"end":18130.496,"text":"西石紫煙的比例是已經獲得控制可是呢西石電子煙的使用率是在增加的為什麼"},{"start":18133.068,"end":18151.738,"text":"跟委員報告確實有這樣的趨勢在國中生使用電子煙的比率目前最新的資料是到了3.9%那麼高中職使用電子煙的比率也相較108年上升現在已經到了這個8.8%所以推估大概已經到8萬了啦7.9萬人 對不對我是問營運啊"},{"start":18160.733,"end":18164.655,"text":"所以就是用這個來推論的話就表示以後加熱式煙品出來以後你們在防制面"},{"start":18186.584,"end":18210.974,"text":"必須要先有對策因為它是酷炫的目前我們對加熱煙這件事情在審查的過程中也是在對後市場管理有非常大的要求因為我們假如說從現在的數據就可以看出以後將會發生什麼事情現在就必須要先做好準備還有就是查獲的件數我這邊的資料"},{"start":18217.436,"end":18228.127,"text":"就是西石電子煙查獲的案件數也太少對兩年累計到目前真正使用者被我們查獲開罰的是404件404可能有一些查獲沒有開罰正在行政程序中"},{"start":18235.7,"end":18236.22,"text":"臨時想到一個問題請教一下部長"},{"start":18267.768,"end":18297.002,"text":"委員好部長好部長剛剛徐副魁委員在講恆春醫院的醫師人力是就我的觀察因為醫中資源計畫大概實施這麼久那我也一直搞不清楚為什麼我們的醫學中心無限量的增加"},{"start":18298.476,"end":18318.867,"text":"然後呢醫中資源離島偏鄉要一個醫生這麼困難部長你懂我的意思嗎所以我不知道為什麼他們要升格那麼容易僅今年一年就升格了三家然後要他們"},{"start":18320.29,"end":18329.761,"text":"健保幾戶給了增加額然後各項的優惡的條件拿走了然後應該要負擔的責任部裡面這邊在處理的時候這麼困難這個我不知道到底問題在哪裡"},{"start":18342.795,"end":18358.678,"text":"這應該是醫事人員本身的選擇的不是那這是醫學中心必須要去解決的事情要不然因為我假如沒有記錯醫中資源離島偏鄉是納為評鑑的項目"},{"start":18367.985,"end":18395.355,"text":"那他每一次每一次原本是醫學中心的沒有降級然後不是醫學中心的也升級了那就表示你們在評鑑的時候對於這個項目醫學中心是沒有遇到你們的挑戰的那你們不挑戰他到底是包庇他"},{"start":18396.878,"end":18415.377,"text":"還是他真的做得很好他只要做得很好就不用徐副委員在這邊為了一個醫生不只恆春啊澎湖金門馬祖離島偏鄉要一個醫學中心的人力資源都很困難啊"},{"start":18421.531,"end":18448.602,"text":"我認為所有的醫學中心其實都有派員到偏鄉不是就是說我們20家的時候的時候也遇到資源人力的短缺問題23家也遇到以你們目前在增加的數量搞不好到明年30家了也還是會遇到"},{"start":18452.243,"end":18472.989,"text":"對,所以不管醫學中心有幾家,我們也給他任務可是如果醫師很難派的話那他在評鑑就不應該過啊不是不應該過,他就可能會失分啦當然如果能夠,因為"},{"start":18475.462,"end":18488.865,"text":"醫院評鑑這個都是除非有那種必要條件你一定要做到一定要做到博定現在被我追拍人喔給你壓迫啦你去給你加一點壓力給醫學中心啦"},{"start":18489.727,"end":18506.24,"text":"不能拿走那麼多的健保資源然後不負擔他應該要負有的責任這個是一個方式偏鄉加強其實我們政府也有偏鄉加強的計畫我現在不討論其他的計畫因為你兩個計畫也沒有辦法填補我們現在就單從"},{"start":18520.143,"end":18526.949,"text":"為什麼臺灣的醫療機關評鑑會造成一直有人升級然後應該要處理的問題一直沒有辦法處理這個我們有在檢討其實醫學中心的資源不甘不願"},{"start":18550.05,"end":18551.01,"text":"瞭解瞭解"},{"start":18563.359,"end":18583.092,"text":"我再講一次,就是說,這一些問題還沒有解決之前,你們不要再有醫學中心升級了。如果這樣生,生在水晶瓶,生到瓶瓦欠,瓶瓦欠瓶瓦欠,瓶瓦欠瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶瓶"},{"start":18588.375,"end":18608.906,"text":"醫中資源人力的計畫實施大概10年了嘛納入評鑑也10年了嘛啊一直沒有辦法解決啊拍不出來拍不出來就降級啊拍不出來我們來督促好謝謝部長好謝謝"},{"start":18612.296,"end":18617.462,"text":"謝謝楊委員、謝謝部長接下來我們請葉元之委員質詢主席好,馬上請衛福部部長"},{"start":18637.355,"end":18666.033,"text":"委員好昨天我在總質詢的時候跟你就教就是我們現在急診室等病房時間越來越長的問題那其實現在的醫療的問題其實不只是這樣那最近有一個抗藥性的病菌他現在是全球的十大健康威脅他也會造成住院天數增加而且醫療的費用增加那如果沒有效控制的話這個醫療界他們預估在2050年會可能會讓全台有3.3萬的人死亡會佔每年總死亡人數的兩成"},{"start":18666.753,"end":18687.172,"text":"那我都不知道你有掌握到這個狀況嗎?不是掌握,我了解到這種趨勢了解趨勢,那接下來跟你討論一下我們要怎麼樣去防避這件事情當然,我們都會想辦法來現在主要是有六大抗藥性的細菌現在有一些趨勢的表格我們也從醫學期刊裡面有找到"},{"start":18687.512,"end":18689.393,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為"},{"start":18708.522,"end":18732.788,"text":"那這個病菌現在已經造成醫院的一些負擔了比如說因為他如果要隔離的話必須要有負壓隔離病房但是負壓隔離病房根本不夠醫護也不夠所以有的時候被發現有感染的就是在原來病床加一個簾子實際上他並沒有辦法達到任何的隔絕的作用他就會造成院內感染那我特別把這個CRKP特別跟部長來討論你有聽過這個"},{"start":18735.129,"end":18737.349,"text":"現在衛福部有沒有掌握這個細菌它的人數感染人數有嗎?"},{"start":18760.765,"end":18781.416,"text":"沒有對不對我跟你講我有跟CDC調資料啦這是CDC給的資料CRKP在112年的時候呢感染人數是1961那死亡率我們如果是死亡人數如果是抓一半的話大概也將近1000個人死亡113年已經到目前為止感染人數已經830億人但是部長這個是精確的數字嗎欸部長"},{"start":18786.072,"end":18811.514,"text":"我們現在質詢欸我再看你這個資料你不要跟旁邊那個聊天我對你這個資料這CDC給的啊你會給我假資料嗎是那因為齁我跟委員報告齁因為我們因為這個問題所以我現在在看的資料就是衛福部也提其實也提出了國家級防疫不是我現在問你人數啦不要在那邊答被所問好不好人數人數如果是習慣屬題的應該是沒有錯"},{"start":18814.884,"end":18826.674,"text":"部長我跟你講好不好就是不是這個數字為什麼你知道嗎?不是這個數字因為現在在你們的疾管署建置的這個系統裡面他是採非...採自願式方式通報啊"},{"start":18827.779,"end":18855.544,"text":"他自願就通報啦不自願就不通報啦所以有一大堆黑數啦所以我剛剛給你看的數字根本沒辦法反應全貌是但我現在不懂的就是剛剛你也承認說這個致死率很高而且情況越來越嚴重可是我們卻對醫院如果發現這樣的器具我們不去管理他我們才自願性通報到底我們衛福部對於相關的處置你的態度跟立場到底是什麼啊我們當然一定要全那為什麼是自願式通報"},{"start":18859.827,"end":18886.482,"text":"你知道這個問題非常嚴重因為我有個朋友今年年初的時候在其中一家醫院北部的他說他發現在呼吸治療病房裡面很多人抬出去都是因為感染的類似的細菌所以我完全都不瞭解這個情形因為機關室的專家都是當今對那我現在問部長您是部長您更是專家為什麼這次採取志願式的方式來通報為什麼"},{"start":18890.302,"end":18908.864,"text":"基本上這個應該都是要自動就會通報所以不能只有自驗啦應該是所以你覺得不可以是不是那這個機關署歸你管嗎應該要全部通報那機關署是不是歸你管我們馬上來了解一下這樣的不是欸部長怎麼感覺好像我沒跟你講這個你還不了解狀況你是衛福部長欸"},{"start":18911.533,"end":18927.802,"text":"因為我們尊重那個業館他已經這個你去了解一下好不好你可不可以去了解一下然後再來就是還有另外你們現在剛你要講就是這個計畫嘛全民健保抗維生物質際管理計畫嘛你要講這個嘛編了2.25億元嘛對不對每次支付不是這個計畫不是要管理及感染的品質提升"},{"start":18938.973,"end":18965.646,"text":"我們的簽名其實叫做國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性反抗生素這2億那個經過明年2億對嘛那一樣嘛一樣東西嘛對啊每一次一個病人每次支付1000點按照現在健保點子還要打折啦然後還要扣東扣西的最後實際上用在病人身上人沒多少了啦所以我們國家呢光是補助一個0日供給就補助1.13億元啦"},{"start":18967.987,"end":18980.956,"text":"大概就是整個計畫的二分之一所以你投入的經費非常少嘛投入的經費非常少代表說你對這更不重視我很快再講另外一個問題感染科醫師現在也不夠啊現在根據"},{"start":18982.836,"end":19008.042,"text":"根據一些醫療的報導研究臺灣至少需要1113位感染科醫師可是現在臺灣整個職業登記只有771位而且今年只有20位報考而且報考的醫生人數是逐年下降所以你現在感染科醫師也有造成很大的缺口最後王必勝曾在之前還就任的時候他說感染科要列為不定專科但目前列為不定專科了嗎?部長"},{"start":19011.58,"end":19027.538,"text":"目前列為不定專科嗎?肝癌科?肝癌科現在還沒...還沒嗎?我在跟部長講話為什麼都一直有人來聊天啊?那你這樣就拖延我執行時間啊我剛剛一直被按鈴欸"},{"start":19029.818,"end":19047.144,"text":"感染科不是固定的專科固定的就是像內科、外科所以不是嘛那問題是之前王必勝講的嘛次專科所以現在是次專科嘛對嘛所以你承諾說之前衛福部承諾要變成固定專科表示重視感染科現在仍然是次專科所以我現在是把問題跟你講這細菌很嚴重"},{"start":19049.125,"end":19072.02,"text":"然後你們也沒有做要求他們一定要通報感染科醫師也不足編的預算也不夠那你有沒有決心要解決這個問題如果不解決的話急診室等病房越等越久醫療的費用會越來越增加那你現在感覺部長是不瞭解啦所以兩位台灣醫師上來而提面命嘛是不是可以給我一份報告詳細的不給我好不好沒問題沒問題謝謝謝謝葉委員謝謝部長還有副署長"},{"start":19079.301,"end":19092.313,"text":"高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員不在接下來我們請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席我們請法務部跟內政部"},{"start":19102.881,"end":19124.16,"text":"法務部司長、國司長、內政部警政監委員好司長好司長我今天就是我們委員會討論這個新興毒品我想請教就是說其實在一般的大樓"},{"start":19126.027,"end":19142.492,"text":"這個住宅區大樓大樓大樓有很多的民眾他們也會反應就是說因為大樓他可能是那個通風的關係管線的關係所以有時候這個上下樓或者是其他地方"},{"start":19143.372,"end":19168.085,"text":"有住戶在抽煙或者甚至有可能是吸毒的那個煙味是透過那個大樓的那個管線都可以聞得到那曾經有民眾他們是透過報案就直接報案可是報案的話其實警察他只能就報案的人他可能去了解可是他不知道這個味道是從哪裡來"},{"start":19169.987,"end":19183.528,"text":"那像這樣子的話我們這個民眾要怎麼自我保護嗎總是我不能每天都聞到這樣的味道啊也許我們聞到就他認為說這個就是一個毒品的那個味道"},{"start":19185.597,"end":19200.292,"text":"請警察來警察也不可能每戶去敲門然後去也許這個住戶知道說是哪一家可是如果你沒有搜索票的話你怎麼進到那個人家那個家裡面去那我請司長遇到這樣的問題怎麼辦"},{"start":19201.813,"end":19226.539,"text":"各位報告這是偵查實務個案首先第一個當然他這個一定流程我聞到這味道感覺是怪怪的好像也是毒品那是不是毒品他可能也不知道像我自己也沒聞過我也搞不清楚那是不是毒品那這個時候如果覺得是毒品的話可能有人在吸毒他可能就直接跟派出所報案那派出所警員就會來訪查那因為"},{"start":19227.179,"end":19250.028,"text":"他可能現在因為通風管線的關係這個可能這是一個查證的一個過程所以管委會的部份社區管委會的部份可能也要發揮一點功能那就我們偵查人員來講的話我大概你報案之後我大概開始收集證據那如果要請到所有票這一點我一定要"},{"start":19250.888,"end":19253.449,"text":"現在目前確實有這樣的一個狀況發生那住在這個大樓裡面的民眾其實有"},{"start":19275.115,"end":19302.066,"text":"他們也大約知道是哪一戶那也許某一天這個人可能被警察可能帶到那個派出所去然後詢問之後也許他有吸毒吸毒完之後後來沒多久他又被交保就是後面可能就又被交保然後又回到社區裡面我覺得這個狀況是不停的在發生只是我們想要知道就是說如果民眾發生這樣的遇到這樣的狀況確實是不堪其擾"},{"start":19305.788,"end":19317.2,"text":"這是確實在我們生活當中存在發生的事情當然我們第一時間一定是跟這個派出所報案就是說民眾遇到這樣的狀況要怎麼樣"},{"start":19320.763,"end":19333.907,"text":"避免再有這樣的事情發生在就是說這個這個可能吸毒的這個人又回到社區之後也許他知道誰報案的他可能就對那個人就是言語威脅我覺得這個這個真實的狀況確實在我們生活當中出現對那這個是我們希望說這個法務部跟內政部確實"},{"start":19344.39,"end":19344.49,"text":"委員好"},{"start":19364.645,"end":19385.771,"text":"根據我們新世代反毒策略我們目前為止我們警政署其實是一個友善通報網但是友善通報網是包含各個社區所以各個社區假如有反應的話我們警察會立即第一時間來做處理那假如是臨時的租戶的話我們就會把他趕出去假如是固定的住戶的話那依照那個大廈管理條例的話就來這邊來做處理"},{"start":19388.892,"end":19408.963,"text":"好,那接下來我也請教我們這兩個部會,就是說我們現在目前的這個,其實我在地方我都會一直聽到就是說我們現在目前的這個毒品防治的這個法好像就是很鬆,就很鬆的,如果你持有的話"},{"start":19410.303,"end":19433.328,"text":"持有這個三級或第四級的這個毒品這個處罰的門檻降為這個純值敬重5公克以上那如果說你是這個持有的話其實這個罪行還不是很大那現在新興毒品有的他是把毒放在這個咖啡包裡面那咖啡包裡面的這個含毒"},{"start":19434.008,"end":19458.648,"text":"他不可能一次就放了5公克他可能就是持有好多包嘛所以為什麼說我們現在那個毒品的這個咖啡包會進到校園其實就很容易取得啊確實是很容易取得那像這樣子的話我們有沒有可能再去檢視一下目前的這個我們毒品危害防治條例的這個罰則的部分有沒有可能再去做一個修改"},{"start":19459.228,"end":19473.541,"text":"各位報告有關於這個毒咖啡包這一個部分就是他向來都是列我們高檢署統合六大系統查緝毒品的一個最主要的軸心的一個重點工作"},{"start":19474.562,"end":19501.74,"text":"那有關於委員剛垂詢的這個刑度以及這個純子敬重其實我們已經降過幾次了有關於這個持有要處罰的這個部分純子敬重已經我記得就修毒品危害防治條例已經修了兩次還幾次我忘記了有足以的把這個持有的這個重量來降低入刑化是"},{"start":19503.416,"end":19519.09,"text":"所以有沒有可能就是說如果針對你我剛剛講的那個咖啡包啊它裡面也許才含量可能是0.2、0.4公克嘛那也許它要拿了十幾包才有這個禁止、禁重是那個5公克啊對啊"},{"start":19520.211,"end":19537.535,"text":"那他如果說拿了十幾包他可以給十幾個人使用欸那像這樣子的話如果如果他是持有然後又拿給別人用我覺得這個應該我覺得應該要去討論一下這個刑責是不是或者是罰則是不是要加重"},{"start":19537.915,"end":19559.141,"text":"跟委員報告他其實拿了這麼多包可能我們在證據上會朝著販賣的一個來辦理販賣的話你三級還是四級他最近本行這五年以上有期徒刑這個就是重的刑度了那個就是我們在查緝面有關於證據收集我們會盡可能的有如果有販賣製造我們嚴厲的來查緝他"},{"start":19563.863,"end":19564.443,"text":"新興煙毒品造成治安"},{"start":19582.435,"end":19603.888,"text":"的所有人身的這個安全造成一個危害那我想請教就是說目前這個新興毒品可能以年輕就是年輕化那我們也看到這幾年就因為吸食新興毒品然後死亡的這個案件也逐年在增加所以我想請教就是說"},{"start":19605.309,"end":19629.991,"text":"類似這樣的狀況就是我們這個新興毒品我們講的有很多種那其中一種是那個彩虹煙彩虹煙其實年輕人尤其是學生校園學生因為這個是很容易取得而且它的這個製作簡單然後其實它也不貴重點它也不貴所以我們要怎麼去防範那"},{"start":19631.912,"end":19650.62,"text":"尤其是年輕人這些新興毒品看到全部幾乎都是年輕人在使用那我不知道說你們這兩個部會未來要怎麼就是說第一個我覺得說罰則重是不是剛剛楊委員也有特別提到那是不是列為現在目前還列為這個第三第三級嗎"},{"start":19652.55,"end":19675.788,"text":"跟委員報告因為新興毒品種類非常多那大部分大概是卡西同類那卡西同類三級嘛那有關於這個像校園裡面兒少私用毒品的那一塊即使如果是私用一二級毒品的話那會歸到那個少年法庭那邊去阿如果是私用三四級毒品這個行政"},{"start":19676.828,"end":19678.31,"text":"警政署稍微回應一下"},{"start":19698.875,"end":19712.19,"text":"保安委員,那假如我們校園有查獲到毒品的話,我們會去溯源,那包括各種新興的毒品我們都會溯源,有溯源到校園的部分的話,我們就會結合教育部以及相關單位來聯合查處。"},{"start":19715.378,"end":19731.393,"text":"最後我是真的要確實就是說我們的社會當中我剛剛講的那個大樓確實真的真實的存在那再來就是新興毒品真的現在年輕人就是要取得這種新興毒品確實是非常容易"},{"start":19731.773,"end":19756.378,"text":"而且製作簡單,其實價格也不貴。所以我覺得說,不論是警政署或法務部,針對這一部分,第一個,源頭,販賣源頭,我覺得這個真的非常的重要。就是說一旦知道有人在吸食,我覺得應該要去溯源,到底是誰在賣,誰在販賣,我覺得這個是非常的重要。另外就是說,販賣的話,這個行者是不是又要再加重?"},{"start":19756.778,"end":19757.478,"text":"謝謝黃委員鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":19785.692,"end":19787.113,"text":"繼續我們請陳穎委員質詢好,謝謝主席,麻煩請邱部長委員好"},{"start":19812.149,"end":19838.811,"text":"欸部長好我本來是要問那個先問那個喪失煙彈的問題齁啊但是因為我發現我們之前千呼萬喚的蔣署長今天終於出現了所以呢那我不禁想說我今天應該要先來關心一下我們加熱煙的進度齁那好那我這個煙彈的質詢稿我先放放旁邊一下等一下這一題問完再問下一題好那個"},{"start":19840.546,"end":19869.263,"text":"就是煙害防治法的部分在去年1月已經修法完成那我們決議要納管加熱煙但是就是說從去年1月我們修法完成現在到現在10月底了已經快兩年的時間了那這個衛福部國健署到今天仍未通過任何一家加熱煙的健康風險評估的這個審查的通過都沒有"},{"start":19870.703,"end":19889.156,"text":"本席這段時間也明查暗訪當然這件事媒體也是知道的國電署指控廠商沒有補充要求的資料因此無法完成審查國電署甚至還給部長不完整也不精確的資訊企圖誤導部長"},{"start":19900.367,"end":19901.036,"text":"就是說這樣子"},{"start":19902.372,"end":19923.698,"text":"其實這樣子就是說導致到現在就沒有辦法完成審查那我們看一下這個新聞國建署署長對外表示國建署目前一個月至少開2到3次健康風險評估的相關審查會議那也就是說國建署迄今應該至少開應該要有開了30場的這個審查會議來處理廠商補送的這些補充資料"},{"start":19932.321,"end":19949.448,"text":"那部長如果廠商如果沒有補充資料那國建署為什麼要每個月還要開會審查就是二到三次這不是一個很矛盾的事情嗎那到底這這麼多這麼久的會到底要開什麼難不成是在開趴嗎"},{"start":19952.282,"end":19973.214,"text":"所以簡單來講本席認為就是說我覺得國建署裡面應該有人在欺負部長您剛上任然後沒有把部長放在眼裡所以採用這些這樣子不清不楚的資訊來誤導部長所以我要問截至目前為止部長你們到底開了幾場的審查會議37場"},{"start":19982.582,"end":20002.196,"text":"37場,好那賈組長我要問一下喔37場的審查會議能不能公開你能不能公開就是公開所有這個相關廠商被要求補充的資料還有這個他們的這個內容及回覆的狀況你能不能把這些都一併的公開說明"},{"start":20005.075,"end":20027.85,"text":"我們只能說他們送件的次數可以說明然後還有大家的共同的問題我們也可以做羅列根說所以其他的不行我們環評現在環評都有公開而且還直播那我們立法院審預算也公開也直播公開透明因為你如果不公開透明"},{"start":20028.63,"end":20028.75,"text":"我們會終結式的"},{"start":20046.848,"end":20074.214,"text":"所以就是不行答案就是不行嗎部長你覺得這個審查會議為什麼不能公開只能按照假署長講的部分說明總結說明這樣子而已這個有這麼難嗎在我們本來的辦法裡面就在審查的過程中因為還在審查過程所以沒有辦法對外完整的公開那"},{"start":20074.898,"end":20101.357,"text":"當然審查結束之後呢這些資料一定都是可以供大家來那你們什麼時候要審查結束勒因為我在上個會期6月5號我就已經已經曾經就是執行過部長嘛那你當天部長回答是說加熱菸健康風險評估審查最終期限會在10月啊那今天已經10月下旬了所以部長"},{"start":20102.936,"end":20114.696,"text":"國監事署會不會還有其他的理由拒不開放?跟委員稍微先說明我問部長啊,你是部長嗎?你已經變成假署長了,你還要做什麼?抱歉抱歉抱歉"},{"start":20116.078,"end":20143.547,"text":"報告委員因為其實我們我也一直在瞭解也一直催促進度這個是大家所關注的說實在的我想國健署壓力也非常大所以也一定是加快速度現在問題如果是現在關鍵看起來就是審查會要求的提供的資料他沒有補過來"},{"start":20145.029,"end":20160.016,"text":"欸我知道啊 你看我剛剛講的都對嘛你得到的資訊是這樣啊沒有補過來啊啊但是你們會卻一直開啊因為開的是什麼會叫做審查他們資料補過來的會議那很奇怪嘛 37場37場"},{"start":20164.912,"end":20174.649,"text":"沒關係假署長你繼續給部長資訊你繼續教他怎麼回答反正這個部長都叫不動你全部都要聽你的我來看一下啦"},{"start":20178.567,"end":20206.586,"text":"我先問一下國建署你們有沒有針對20歲以下的年輕人做過調查就是加熱煙是否對他們有吸引力或危害的研究有沒有做過這樣的調查我們是針對各個年齡層有做吸煙率的調查跟使用煙品的一個狀態的調查你可不可以大聲一點我們的調查是針對各個年齡層的吸煙的盛行的情形跟他們使用的這個狀況"},{"start":20208.579,"end":20229.701,"text":"這是我們的國人健康調查跟青少年煙害的一個調查所以你們沒有沒有做我剛剛講的就是針對這個20歲這加熱煙針對20歲以下其實我們要委員我要澄清我們要求這個廠商提具這個位碼因為不是因為之前其實"},{"start":20231.202,"end":20252.404,"text":"我這樣問是因為你們早就知道就是依據這樣的研究結論有提出修法嘛那你們就是知道有你剛剛就說有做了什麼了解那這樣子你們才提出修法說有提高這個禁止抽煙的年齡從18歲到20歲嘛"},{"start":20254.691,"end":20269.179,"text":"這也是國際趨勢對阿你們就已經知道提出了嘛所以你們就是刁難廠商阿讓每家廠商都做一次這樣子的研究阿因為很好玩是說有這個新聞"},{"start":20272.602,"end":20276.607,"text":"吳釗鈞說,煙商提出很多資料都不完整,實際樣態很多,無法切確描述,但至少有一間業者出現過答非所問的情況,比如"},{"start":20290.825,"end":20304.34,"text":"該署曾要求業者提供產品是否對未滿20歲者有吸引力或危害的研究資料,業者卻已不會販售於20歲以下的消費者,故不會有資料回應。"},{"start":20308.298,"end":20315.044,"text":"這樣的邏輯有什麼不對?還說人家答非所問?這不是太強人所難了?這個要求20歲以下的一些監測資料是按照美國他們的PMTA的結構那美國也是用這樣的方式要求他的廠商那現在在這個全世界各國就是美國跟我們國家有做這個所謂的健康風險的評估"},{"start":20333.48,"end":20354.583,"text":"常常跟美國開會來互相來溝通這些事情所以你們不能拿美國的風險評估來做參考你們就必須要在國內的業者要再重新每一家重新都做一樣的剛剛你們提出的這些要求我們其實是同意廠商可以用他在境外就是國外的一些研究來告訴我們"},{"start":20355.143,"end":20383.799,"text":"因為你都不公開你們的這個這幾場會議到底是怎麼一回事嗎所以我們也聽到無所謂我們現在只能全部的資訊我也不知道是部長說了算還是賈署長你說了算我現在我還要聽你怎麼講嗎啊因為你們就是不公開透明啊啊等到你們說全部都審查結束請問如果是這樣按照期程部長10月底就是審查結束的日子是嗎"},{"start":20385.357,"end":20385.377,"text":"總結公開"},{"start":20410.937,"end":20417.828,"text":"內容的話我們盡量在規定的範圍裡面要呈現比如說是哪一家我們提了他的資料他缺了什麼資料我想這個都要講清楚"},{"start":20424.93,"end":20451.513,"text":"對,然後我也不要講太久因為等一下那個召委要站起來我就不好意思因為上次質詢的時候本席有提到這個煙害防治法的修法已經通過了那跟日本其他國家一樣我們限制使用的地方那徵收相關的煙捐跟稅金那現在國建署他拒不開放那現在造成很多問題就是放任民眾違法使用然後你們又不取締相關的官員"},{"start":20452.974,"end":20472.76,"text":"這個就是賭職嘛,難辭其咎啊那當初6月5號我有特別講為了維護我們國家法治依法行政的精神部長你有答應說要了解進行相關的查處那請問部長你這段時間查到了什麼?處分了什麼?是不是可以告訴大家完成處分了嗎?"},{"start":20476.769,"end":20490.329,"text":"我們在煙害防治法以後當然就在以煙害防治法我們也查了像今年也查了23萬我說堵值的部分"},{"start":20493.291,"end":20517.807,"text":"看起來是沒有嘛就拖啊因為10月底又弄不出來我們跟委員報告我們真的壓力很大我也把這件事情當成非常重要的事情在催促那所以你要盤點到底是卡在人還是卡在哪裡如果有什麼障礙物你是部長你就清除障礙物這就是你的任務嗎"},{"start":20519.108,"end":20537.338,"text":"那如果不適應的人在那邊你一直擺著那你這個部長也會被拖累幹不久啊不是這樣子嗎所以你自己好好想一想嘛那但本席今天強烈要求你所有的審查會議你就是要公開透明我不接受假署長講的什麼什麼總結什麼挑選針對一點什麼我們還是看得沒什麼啦所以你國建署技術"},{"start":20544.702,"end":20559.773,"text":"技術性讓加熱煙無法進口我們除了每年這個百億的相關稅收收不到那你等於是變相在圖利這些走私販造成我們稅收大失險那引起我們整個社會的恐慌還有民怨所以這個社會上"},{"start":20560.313,"end":20588.776,"text":"明明有這個非常明顯的需求但造成現金卻走私很猖獗那有人用這個假冒合上的方式有人用代購日貨的方式來走私還有更多的國際遊客因為帶加熱煙進口被沒收被罰款這個也嚴重影響到我們台灣整個國際形象跟觀光所以國建署你一件事情你這件事辦不好你惹出這麼多的問題這些不是賭職嗎所以署長部長你不用好好的查辦嗎"},{"start":20591.195,"end":20616.646,"text":"阿你們一直在查說人家走私多少你不如把卡在中間這些很奇奇怪怪的人跟事情你把它弄清楚把它鏟除乾淨你就順了好不好那我希望說趕快這個被技術性卡關的問題部長能夠盡快處理好這些亂象然後癌症費用缺口的31億元還有100億的這個癌症心藥基金可以利用這些沒有收到的稅捐趕快補齊"},{"start":20618.467,"end":20644.527,"text":"這個就是今天本期主要的訴求公開透明這件事情我們還是要希望你們一個禮拜內把這個事情部長辦公室那邊可以好好跟我們報告這個事情謝謝好謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在"},{"start":20649.297,"end":20675.629,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束大家辛苦了委員如現於所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告局詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":20676.872,"end":20679.433,"text":"本日會議到此結束,現在上會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"16196","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16196","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd910ea1e62573b11e4f06006d1739c8706059d4d42a7fce2132510a495b97b3a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-23T08:32:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-23T13:55:00+08:00","duration":19379,"影片長度":"05:22:59","委員發言時間":"08:32:01 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、文憂浩等6人手提書面質詢均列入記錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料。"},{"start":1753.157,"end":1779.403,"text":"或未及答覆部分,請交通部盡速以書面答覆通過臨時提案二項散會宣布完畢好,我們議事錄等一下再確定我們現在介紹在場列席的人員首先是我們交通部陳世凱部長來,掌聲歡迎一下,早上給他打個氣來,公共運輸監理師林福山司長"},{"start":1782.076,"end":1788.958,"text":"路政及檔案司黃應貴司長秘書處黃定環處長臺鐵公司杜威董事長鐵道局楊振軍局長"},{"start":1803.12,"end":1828.618,"text":"今天特別先說明一下因為昨天我們有交交友會的委員針對於高雄跟馬祖之間的航班因為有這個油料車及保險的一些問題有急迫性所以我們雖然議題上面跟民航沒有關但是我們還是緊急請了民航局來掌聲歡迎一下民航局局長何淑萍局長"},{"start":1829.69,"end":1857.105,"text":"也謝謝局長跟中油公司今天緊急來針對委員的問題等一下來做一個回答接下來我陸續介紹文化部文資局張宥創主秘謝謝我們中油公司羅富同副總謝謝今天播空參加接下來我們數位部黃燕南部長黃部長"},{"start":1862.597,"end":1889.504,"text":"術衛政府司王承明司長資通安全署謝翠娟署長今天也謝謝國防部來到我們交通委員會國防部楊基榮常事以及國防部的政風室王振國主任"},{"start":1891.212,"end":1908.305,"text":"黃主任通信電子資訊參謀次長是資安及網站整備處張克勤副處長以及我們軍事情報局鄧敦仁執行長好謝謝"},{"start":1912.605,"end":1930.175,"text":"好本次會議就臺鐵如何精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及鐵道美學與功能及我國軌道建設執行概況"},{"start":1931.308,"end":1938.21,"text":"第三個議題是國防部財產申報作業募資的問題檢討應處作為風險管理及後續強化資安保護進行專題報告我們現在就請列席機關號來報告首先請交通部陳世凱部長報告"},{"start":1960.643,"end":1984.872,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生交通部作為全國交通行政以及交通事業的主管機關是以民眾的服務作為中心點人本交通作為交通部施政的願景並且以安全、效率、品質以及綠色等四大面向作為施政的主軸臺鐵公司在今年的一到九月"},{"start":1985.922,"end":1994.741,"text":"累計客運人數達到1.76億人次較去年的同期增加了1700萬人次客運收入達到了"},{"start":1996.323,"end":2024.871,"text":"一百二十九點八五億元較去年的同期增加了七點三六億元儘管面臨震災以及風災的考驗以及影響臺鐵公司仍然充分展現全體員工的努力以及展開新氣象的企圖心提升運能以及運量臺鐵公司將以確保安全以及提升服務品質作為首要的任務推動五年安全提升計劃降低人員失誤率"},{"start":2025.791,"end":2046.18,"text":"提升設備妥善率以及完善組織安全的體系以實現永續經營與幸福企業的目標並且推動ESG永續經營邁向黃金十年軌道建設執行的方面因為軌道運輸具有安全可靠節能減碳、運量大"},{"start":2047.318,"end":2070.65,"text":"引導空間發展潛力大以及產業關聯效果強等等的優勢。交通部希望藉由強化軌道與公路系統的整合與分工打造有序無縫的軌道運輸環境、健全全城、城際的軌道服務系統以及穩固都會軌道基礎等軌道運輸政策"},{"start":2071.61,"end":2090.08,"text":"完善便利便捷安全的環島鐵路網並且促進區域均衡發展由鐵道局持續協助推動建構具有產業機會、安全可靠、悠遊易行、永續營運以及具有觀光魅力的綠色軌道運輸系統"},{"start":2093.137,"end":2119.135,"text":"以下就由臺鐵公司杜董事長以及鐵道局楊局長分別報告臺鐵如何精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加強資產活化、強化文資保存提升鐵道美學與功能以及行車安全以及我國軌道建設執行概況進行各位委員指教謝謝那是不是請我們杜董事長"},{"start":2131.897,"end":2151.289,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀致貴委員會就《臺鐵如何精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能》進行專題報告 敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2153.371,"end":2168.292,"text":"關於精進服務品質的方面首先我們到今年的9月為止我們的客運時機每天我們實際輸運的旅客人數來到64.2萬人較去年同期增加10.15"},{"start":2169.634,"end":2193.901,"text":"另外我們每日的平均客運收入也有4739萬元增加5.62%那這個增長以外另外我們還積極推動行政院通勤月票及社福卡讓民眾以及大眾運輸的使用意願能夠持續的提升"},{"start":2194.981,"end":2218.687,"text":"在運能的方面我們EMU900型我們通勤電車已經全速交車上線那我們的3000型的晨季的電聯車在今年的8月也完成交車預計在年底之前可以全速投入所以我們區間的運能較之前有增加了35%那我們晨季的運能"},{"start":2221.448,"end":2231.97,"text":"有增加到40%那我們持續投入目前的包括R200的柴電機車頭以及E500的電力機車頭我們持續汰換舊車那預計E500在年底可以交車數量那我們到115年全數投入以後我們乘計輸運的運能可以再增加20%"},{"start":2248.427,"end":2273.096,"text":"在車站、場站服務的部分我們全線我們車站的432台自動售票機我們在今年全部開放支援行動支付讓這個付款更便利那7月1號我們也跟一無卡來合作來開放APP的B層車所以旅客可以在線上來進行加值"},{"start":2273.536,"end":2274.596,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就 «我國軌道建設執行概況》進"},{"start":2294.384,"end":2314.78,"text":"那這個也有效的來吸引客源那另外九月我們啟用了我們驗票機的QR Code的驗證這樣旅客使用票證的時候就不需要經過刺卡通道來付費那另外我們全部車站一共有766座的公車評鑑"},{"start":2318.122,"end":2337.08,"text":"其中只有一座公廁我們正在爭取做特優其他的765座公廁都已經獲得特優的品項這個我們會持續的來維持鐵道觀光方面截至9月底我們一共在今年開行了1167團搭乘人數也有達到13萬6千多人"},{"start":2342.785,"end":2359.134,"text":"那在10月以後我們有加開我們各式的包括總統花車的觀光列車來振興花東的一個觀光旅遊另外我們也開放明日跟兩鐵旅遊的半價優惠來吸引客源"},{"start":2360.595,"end":2378.64,"text":"在車型跟便當服務的方面我們到9月30日我們所有對號列車的座椅的整金我們都換新形式那另外提供30款以上的我們的特色便當"},{"start":2379.82,"end":2383.462,"text":"我們今年便當的業績也較去年成長14.83%我們在今年6月辦理的鐵路便當節參觀人數跟營收也創下新高"},{"start":2395.626,"end":2423.951,"text":"準點率的部分因為今年有碰到這個比較多一點的天災包括地震、風災等等路線有中斷所以整體的列車準點率沒有達到我們原先設定97%的目標但是扣除天災以後的不可抗力以後我們的準點率有維持在97.13這個我們要需要繼續持續的來做非常大的努力"},{"start":2424.847,"end":2452.229,"text":"那未來工作服務的重點就包括我們在今年第4季要持續的要把準點率來提升那明年我們的準點率仍然定為97.5%那另外就是有69個車站開始要全面的來偵測我們新的自動閘門以及優化跟閘門搭配的電子驗票機"},{"start":2453.49,"end":2481.369,"text":"那全線車站的這個列車資訊顯示系統我們現在也在積極的在邀標那我們預計要用3年半的時間來全部於更新那還有就是車上車長使用的PDA漲電那有要增加這個漲電上面多元支付的一個功能所以未來旅客在車上補票也可以使用信用卡跟行動支付"},{"start":2481.969,"end":2497.457,"text":"另外,剛剛提到的公測的特有比例我們要達到百分之百那在今年底我們會公告來這個合作廠商我們要推出我們臺鐵假期的這個鐵道旅遊的服務"},{"start":2498.718,"end":2516.887,"text":"便當還有我們這個其他的副業的這個推動我們也希望能夠有所長進那還有一點很重要就是我們人員服務的效能包括我們的形象這個我們會持續的努力"},{"start":2519.71,"end":2541.609,"text":"在公司治理方面轉型治理一直是今年我們公司成立第一年一個最重要的工作在公司治理的部分我們成立董事會以後我們有特別加強董事會的一個效能包括成立安全管理委員會及資產開發委員會這兩個常設組織"},{"start":2545.052,"end":2571.21,"text":"那協助董事會那截至目前為止這個我們公司治理都有按照我們既定的時程在推動那另外就是公司的目標管理我們依據我們年度營業計畫的目標管理的機制我們有總經理擔任整個推動的召集人那我們有六大責任中心"},{"start":2572.15,"end":2585.082,"text":"分別設有KPI跟PDCA運作的模式,照這個模式確保達成目標。在人力禁用方面,從過往臺鐵局的鐵路特考模式轉變為僱用從業人員。"},{"start":2594.439,"end":2611.637,"text":"今年我們在年底之前我們還會招募第二批從業人員一共有722人裡面有包含100個是專任司機員的名額在教育訓練方面我們推動訓練標準化教材"},{"start":2612.958,"end":2625.926,"text":"數位化、教學分區化跟師資專業化四個項目,這個我們分別都有達到我們既定的一個目標明年我們會持續推動,讓我們的訓練能量持續的加強"},{"start":2628.602,"end":2644.469,"text":"未來工作的重點在轉型治理的工作重點包括我們強化我們內機跟內控的機制這個在昨天董事會已經通過了新的辦法另外還有就是在115年我們"},{"start":2649.092,"end":2665.822,"text":"智慧雲平台跟資產管理系統這兩個智慧型的系統預計會上線另外我們也成立鐵道學院在明年我們會優先跟國內好的大專院校來做合作"},{"start":2666.562,"end":2693.016,"text":"改善我們的教育的場域長期我們會在富岡基地成立學院包括我們的實習場等等設施我們預計在明年跟後年持續努力包括探足機標籤的取得還有組織溫室空氣體的盤查另外就是在115年我們會提出我們的ESG的永續報告書"},{"start":2694.827,"end":2716.013,"text":"在資產活化方面今年成績也還不錯那在今年截至目前為止我們扣除掉一次性處役收份因為我們成立公司以後我們基本上是不會做出賣土地資產的事那我們的租金收入來到23.6億元"},{"start":2718.914,"end":2736.544,"text":"那較去年同期的租金收入有成長8.86%而且這個是我們有移轉部分資產給常債基金這個先前我們能取得的租金這個都不在內所以這個成長是可以看到的"},{"start":2737.604,"end":2755.944,"text":"所以我們在未來我們的資產活化我們包括加速開發以及我們多元活化各種資產這個活化開發的方式我們會持續努力那在今年跟明年我們會推動10處車站跟周邊地區的一個開發案件"},{"start":2758.907,"end":2781.314,"text":"另外,透過土地開發來活絡在地商機提升彼此品牌力與附屬事業的收益。在強化文資保存方面,我們有成立專責推動的機構。在我們公司內部有企劃處以及文資科。另外,我們還有成立"},{"start":2782.034,"end":2799.562,"text":"跨公司內部各單位的文化保存跟活用小組這個都有定期開會來做一個目標的達成這裡包括盤點保存還有活化利用這兩個很重要的工作"},{"start":2801.363,"end":2819.808,"text":"包括我們有99處的文化資產還有2523項的鐵路文物這個我們都有依照法規以及我們實際的需求來做保存來做運用那未來工作重點目標呢"},{"start":2820.308,"end":2844.987,"text":"我們在明年會完成我們的管理維護計畫還有我們的巡查那在115年我們會推動這個鐵路文化保存及活用發展計畫那這是一個涵蓋整體規劃跟影像建立的這兩個部分提升我們臺鐵文化資產的保存跟活化的一個價值"},{"start":2847.078,"end":2865.33,"text":"在提升鐵道美學與功能的方面我們有成立專家諮詢的審議小組這是由9位我們國內專家學者來組成的一共有4個主要的項目包括車站"},{"start":2866.491,"end":2889.184,"text":"包括車輛、包括網路的行銷還有企業形象我們透過這個小組對我們整個這四大項目來進行專業評估跟指導我們都有嚴謹的一個審議的流程確保美學理念能夠有效的來落實"},{"start":2890.705,"end":2916.593,"text":"建立品牌美學現在已經有新竹、嘉義、英哥等等車站都有進行微改造這個年代也對於服務品質的提升有很大的注意另外在車輛的部分包括剛剛講到的城際列車跟區間列車也都有所展現還有就是我們臺鐵公司我們包括TR LOGO還有臺鐵夢工廠"},{"start":2917.953,"end":2919.674,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就 «我國軌道建設執行概況》進"},{"start":2935.642,"end":2949.401,"text":"來完成支線觀光列車形象建立另外在明年我們會完成瑞芳站的改善工程這也是跟我們美學改造很有關聯"},{"start":2951.143,"end":2958.947,"text":"有提升旅營空間及景觀。最後,預計持續努力在117年,集集支線的7個車站都會完成基礎設施改善計畫,配合田中支線啟用展現集集的效能。"},{"start":2973.154,"end":2989.828,"text":"我們臺鐵公司是以確保安全跟提升服務為首要任務持續努力針對剛剛講到的精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存"},{"start":2990.689,"end":3011.537,"text":"提升鐵道美學的功能等等的項目我們會更加的努力來提供我們好的乘車品質跟旅客的服務體驗也有助於持續來推動未來整個公司ESG的永續經營邁向黃金十年以上是報告"},{"start":3013.376,"end":3039.57,"text":"好 謝謝杜董事長那接下來交通部的一個報告因為我們全國的軌道執行的建設這本已經整理蠻好了針對於整個臺灣的北、中、南、東包括了這個高鐵甚至台鐵、捷運都有一個大綱式的一個進度報告那這個部分我們待會會看委員的一個需求直接透過質詢再來詢問細節的這個部分"},{"start":3043.112,"end":3047.944,"text":"好接下來報告我們請數位部黃部長"},{"start":3057.938,"end":3083.794,"text":"主席、各位委員先進有關媒體揭露機關業務執行師含文附件包括機敏資料自有資料過多揭露疑慮議題本部治安署持續關注治安威脅趨勢及治安事件的根因適時會提供機關治安防護的重點建議並於各式治安宣導會議及治安月報中適時宣導"},{"start":3086.235,"end":3102.279,"text":"提醒各機關注意辦理此次案件如為機關業務執行使人員的疏漏應該要加強人員機敏資料的保護意識詳細的說明我再請治安署來補充這我主席請治安署主席各位先進"},{"start":3112.169,"end":3119.401,"text":"有關機關執行財產申報的疏失、航文附件包含機敏資料,以至於過多資料揭露的疑義,僅報告如下。本部專屬"},{"start":3123.621,"end":3143.777,"text":"進起延期資料外洩的那個真事件的根因大概有四個第一個是詹人員的意識不足或者是一般操作人員的意識不足第二是不當操作或者是上架沒有遮蔽個資或者是錯字把資料放在沒限制存取的公開區域等那這些樣態我們都會在"},{"start":3146.219,"end":3174.038,"text":"安排資安宣導會議或資安月報中事實的宣導然後提醒各機關要注意辦理那這一次的事件其實是業務人員在執行的時候的疏漏那麼我們是建議說可以加強人員機敏性的資料保護的意識的訓練那同仁在執行業務時或者是傳輸資料不管他是使用系統或者是電子郵件來傳輸應該要先研判夾帶的附件是否具有機敏性"},{"start":3175.354,"end":3189.547,"text":"並且採取相對應的處置措施,比如說最小化揭露,還有如果它是機敏性的資料,應該要適當的加密或者是說存取的控制跟加密的傳輸等等。那本部"},{"start":3192.25,"end":3212.706,"text":"而資通安全署也將持續關注資安威脅的趨勢,適時提供機關資安防護的重點建議,而且我們每年會辦理資通安全的巡迴研討會,宣傳最新的資安防護重點及訊息,也會協助各個機關的負責資通安全業務的人員去提升他整個資通安全管理的"},{"start":3213.744,"end":3232.257,"text":"技能跟認知那我們也會定期彙整各機關資安事件的樣態還有相對的防護建議公開在資安署的網站還有資安月報專區提供各個機關可以參考以強化國家整體的自動安全防護能量報告完畢謝謝好謝謝我們數位部跟資安署那接下來我們請國防部楊俊榮次長報告"},{"start":3244.619,"end":3263.751,"text":"那待會文化部的資料就請委員參閱主席、各位委員今日受邀就財產申報作業務實質問題檢討應處作為風險管控及後續強化資安保護實施專題報告以下僅就本案相關的檢討及風險管控的應處作為進行說明第一個部分問題"},{"start":3275.318,"end":3291.829,"text":"檢討本部的政控室依據國軍人員財產申報作業實施規定辦理今年度財產申報及授權作業將因辦理財產申報人員名冊循軍網的公文系統以電子發文含送本部轄管的單位來收辦"},{"start":3293.752,"end":3309.227,"text":"為因承辦的同仁未將附件中機敏人員名冊予以取革及個別處理。附因核稿人員未以詳查而隨文發出作業程序有所疏漏,衍生了資料可能外流的疑慮。二、本案的應處與風險管控"},{"start":3312.301,"end":3335.309,"text":"第一個,啟動了回收公文降低風險的影響本部政公司在接貨反應後立即啟動風險管控的相關作為在第一時間就要求了各收文的單位循公文的系統流程辦理線上的退文並全數收回刪除該份電子公文降低機敏人員資料外流的風險第二個"},{"start":3336.817,"end":3345.462,"text":"檢視所有的名冊,無涉財產資料。經檢視該名冊的內容,僅含服務機關、職稱、姓名、申報年度等資訊,並未包含個人存款、不動產、投資等財產申報的資料。第三,軍網實體隔離尚無治安的風險。該份電子公文雖然採軍網公文系統傳送,內部傳輸的環境與全球資訊網"},{"start":3365.315,"end":3383.225,"text":"實體隔離,為為確保資安的顧慮,能檢視公文系統有無異常情勢,避禁尚無資訊安全風險的顧慮。第四、成立專案小組進行複式查核,為確認該公文未儲存於系統內,遭不當利用,衍生違安問題。"},{"start":3384.566,"end":3404.577,"text":"處以相關人員確認已刪除該公文外﹐並那邊、通識室等相關單位成立專案小組﹐針對電子公文回收、刪除進行複式查核跟確認。三、有關後續的策進作為。第一項,檢討本案吸引人為因素疏忽公文處理欠當。"},{"start":3405.638,"end":3428.865,"text":"以及各級核稿人員未能詳實的稽查及審核所致,除進行內部文書審核流程的檢討及落實機密名冊區隔分類做法,並依利用此案例來加強宣導及教育訓練,強化公文處理保密的素養,防範列案。二、秉持了資安管控的原則,此行強化公文系統運維,加強資訊安全意識訓練,"},{"start":3434.451,"end":3445.219,"text":"來維護國軍資訊整體的安全。第三、目前本案實施行政調查當中,同時檢討相關人員及業務主管的疏則,並函告廉政署。報告完畢,恭請指導。"},{"start":3452.383,"end":3466.629,"text":"好我們現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間初期委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止本會委員除外"},{"start":3467.694,"end":3484.2,"text":"第三、各委員如有臨時提案區10點前提出以便議事人員會診第四、暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第五、中午原則上不休息現在我們就請登記第一位李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":3493.914,"end":3499.046,"text":"謝謝召委請一下陳部長還有周威董事長、楊振鈞局長楊局長"},{"start":3504.675,"end":3528.353,"text":"部長您好,今天討論的議題早晚安排的是相關臺鐵的服務品質以及資產管理、文化的保存以及相關的鐵道美學等等這些重要的議題其實我們討論到臺鐵,現在每天平均大概有64萬人次搭乘臺鐵"},{"start":3529.494,"end":3558.07,"text":"是一個重要的大眾運輸工具那你認為臺鐵最重要的責任跟工作到底是什麼來說明一下我覺得臺鐵最重要的是安全的確保所有旅客的安全確保這是第一要務那第二當然我們服務的提升也是很重要服務我想64萬人次的旅客我們要給安全準點的這樣的一個重要的責任工作是我們交通部最重要的一個工作那"},{"start":3558.59,"end":3587.096,"text":"我們現在看到臺鐵相關的這些在過去部長應該清楚臺鐵過去有運、工、積、電四個單位那這四個單位在過去的都是各行其事各自獨立運作其實雖然是同一個臺鐵局但是運、工、積、電杜薇董事長是老臺鐵也很清楚整個是有相當大的問題四大角頭"},{"start":3588.436,"end":3608.968,"text":"我們不好處理啦那現在公司化之後杜葳董事長努力要做初步的一個整合但是這個整合我認為啊績效還是不好啦那我請教一下部長我們現在對於臺鐵相關的這些安全工作的整合你目前的態度跟原則是什麼"},{"start":3609.928,"end":3636.06,"text":"當然運供基電四個系統對於整體的安全是相當的重要過去的運行的過程當中整合的不夠好那現在他們透過智慧鐵道的雲的這個平台的建置還有其他的系統正在建置當中希望能夠做到更好的整合那像委員所說的沒有錯目前的進度可能不夠好那這個部分我也請杜葳董事長要努力來加強部長跟杜董事長我要提醒你們我們過去啊"},{"start":3636.92,"end":3654.913,"text":"有相當多的安全計畫6年行車安全計畫然後電路智慧化的提升計畫小半徑彎曲的一個改善計畫還有軌道安全的結構的這樣安全計畫現在又多了一個5年的安全計畫計畫不斷"},{"start":3658.257,"end":3674.525,"text":"然後我們現在說要成立相關的安全管理的推動小組我請教一下杜董事長我們在上次重大的災難之後有成立了營運安全處現在又要成立"},{"start":3675.68,"end":3694.132,"text":"安全的管理推動小組來說明一下這個機制到底是要怎麼運作是跟委員報告其實剛剛委員提到我們運工機電的整合這件事情我們就是把他們全部納到安全管理推動小組裡面來由總經理直接的來檢視來訂目標"},{"start":3698.014,"end":3713.622,"text":"讓他們完成那這個其中的整合是有相關聯的那剛剛提到的運安處就是這個推動小組的幕僚單位他要幫總經理跟整個小組做好規劃然後要言語考核要達標"},{"start":3715.134,"end":3743.153,"text":"那他最主要還是根據SNS還有相關的安全管理系統那對於這些跨部門他們相關的運作來訂立一個目標而已嘛是那個我跟委員報告就是SNS裡面有一個很重要的重點是風險管控以往我們都是各行其事是沒有錯啦但是我們公司成立以後我們的風險管控就改了我們現在每一個風險"},{"start":3745.654,"end":3770.907,"text":"發生的原因以及推到最後面我們要去管控它的改善計畫都包含運供、機電各部門的配合所以在安全管理推動小組裡面會對我們所有的風險管控就是檢視、考核在修正在之前有營運安全處的成立現在又成立了安全管理推動小組"},{"start":3773.16,"end":3800.994,"text":"計畫不斷小組不斷但是它實際的功效杜董事長在公司化之後必須要拿出具體的一個成績那現在提到智慧鐵道平臺雲智慧鐵道雲的這個平臺好像最近才發包嗎好像還沒有上線嗎還沒有已經發包了10月份發包10月份發包謝謝部長那什麼時候可以預計上線運作呢"},{"start":3801.798,"end":3814.932,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們預計初步的在明年的下半年我們會有幾個主系統可以連上來那全部第一階段的一個連線就上線了我們預計是在115年的上半年"},{"start":3818.395,"end":3838.775,"text":"相關的智慧鐵道員這個平台他主要是來做一個各系統的一個界面的整合能夠讓相關的訊息能夠讓相關的這樣的一個資訊信號能夠做一個整合這是一個很重要的向前邁進一大步這個杜董事長要加強的去落實"},{"start":3839.856,"end":3854.393,"text":"我們現在看到第三代CTC就是中央行車控制系統這是我們很期待的一個新的系統的建制目前這個功能以及相關的建制期程杜董事長說明一下"},{"start":3854.873,"end":3871.953,"text":"來跟委員報告,CTC這個部分我們現在已經報計畫上來了那只要院合訂以後,我們會趕快的來做一個發包的動作那這個CTC裡面,它的所有功能是結合於平台的"},{"start":3872.754,"end":3895.332,"text":"那也就是說未來現場各方各面的資料都可以透過雲平台傳到CTC那CTC的控制員、調度員就可以獲得第一手的資訊這是很重要的我認為這第三代的CTC中央行車控制系統必須加緊建置而且如期如止的要來完成"},{"start":3896.755,"end":3911.292,"text":"杜董事長我請教一下我們講到安全的管理我們例如以平交道的管理來做一個說法平交道它有遮斷器有這樣的相關的義務入侵的偵測以及相關的"},{"start":3912.313,"end":3941.124,"text":"CMT就是這樣的一個集體監測的這樣一個系統或是錄影監測的系統那如何去做好這個平交道的安全管理以這個來做例子你們現在目前的做法是什麼是,現在平交道的安全管理其實我們平交道上的設備應該已經建區齊全了只是這些設備它的資訊以及它的功能就是還需要做即時的傳輸跟整合"},{"start":3941.644,"end":3970.433,"text":"那舉這個平交道的例子比如說我們的錄影監視系統那現在調度員看不到那未來透過雲平台每一個平交道的畫面調度員都可以立即的調出來來審視那平交道的這個機構如果說他有這個衰退或者是他有這個異常現象的現在我們的人是要看到表徵發生以後才跑到現場去"},{"start":3971.313,"end":3991.513,"text":"這個部長都要落實的去督促每天有64萬人次人搭乘臺鐵安全是我們最重要的責任那最後的時間我們對臺鐵員工的待遇這個我知道最近部長跟杜董事長積極的要推動相關的員工福利的一個提升"},{"start":3993.342,"end":4014.1,"text":"在過去啊臺鐵的這個新人的離職率非常的高因為啊他們認為臺鐵啊待遇不夠好然後工作也非常辛苦所以他變成一個我講的非常沒不禮貌就是有點騎驢找馬我先考上臺鐵我再來考其他的單位"},{"start":4016.118,"end":4038.676,"text":"臺鐵變成一個人力培訓中心大家都離職率都非常高尤其是臺鐵那我們看到臺鐵公司人員的離退情形是很嚴重我們到113年就是6月30日為止申請優退禮的人數是達到1399人那如果再加上"},{"start":4039.98,"end":4056.039,"text":"一百一十三年符合退休年齡的人數到一百一十三年底合計退役的人數會達到一千五百四十三人這個部分我們在之前我有"},{"start":4056.88,"end":4084.614,"text":"跟杜董事長我們有努力有成功為臺鐵員工來增加他們營運獎金並入專業佳績而且也增加了危險津貼那現在我們有什麼更進一步的對於臺鐵的員工我們必須要盡到我們照顧的責任要調高從業人員的薪資或是爭取危險的佳績以及夜點費或是地域佳績有什麼更進一步的"},{"start":4085.234,"end":4102.354,"text":"報告委員在這段時間您也花了很多時間跟我討論然後我們也花了一些時間跟臺鐵公司來討論尤其是從業人員的部分從業人員是新進的人員那他們過去的薪資跟原本留任的人員確實是有一定的差距"},{"start":4102.794,"end":4124.983,"text":"那這個部分我們正在努力當中那也應該很快的時間會讓大家看到成果這段時間不管是交通部我們內部的討論或者是到人事總處那邊的討論我們都已經完成了很快的院那邊如果只要核定下來對於從業人員的加薪就會如委員所期待的會有一定的進度會出現那媒體也有報導"},{"start":4125.723,"end":4143.775,"text":"那針對他們的基本底薪的部分大概會增加三千多塊左右啦會增加到大概新聘人員大概一進來大概就三萬六以上的這個薪資那當然還是不夠還有很多該加給的部分我們持續在努力那整套的計畫那個杜董事長這邊杜董事長來簡單再補充一下"},{"start":4145.916,"end":4163.481,"text":"是,剛剛部長指示的這個我們努力以外其實對公司來講我們要留才也是最重要的工作就是讓員工對公司有信心所以我們對於安全跟服務這兩大區塊我們必須要有所進步"},{"start":4164.241,"end":4192.262,"text":"那這個是當然反過來講還是要公司全體員工一致的向心努力才能達成那之前我也有報告過就是在這兩塊有進步的前提之下我們才能吸引客源我們才能夠善用資產那我們如果營業收入因而增加的話那我們調整待遇或者是增加員工福利才有機會做更好的一個發展"},{"start":4192.722,"end":4200.403,"text":"好我今天講的重點就是照顧員工的一個福利啦要提升照顧員工的基本生活及權益最後最後"},{"start":4201.465,"end":4227.992,"text":"部長我們對於高雄的黃線捷運那因為相關的物價上漲總經費增加非常的多那在9月交通部也召開過相關的捷運委員會的一個審查那希望能夠加速相關的行政程序啦另外還有紫線捷運可行性評估也送到交通部了也要加緊相關的行政程序之前委員也有來參加審查委員會那這個部分我們來加速謝謝"},{"start":4232.128,"end":4248.969,"text":"好 謝謝李昆哲委員那我們先來確認一下上次會議的議事錄在座各位委員對於上次會議的議事錄有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見那我們議事錄確定接下來有請林國成委員發言"},{"start":4257.922,"end":4263.651,"text":"主席請我們交通部陳部長陳部長來我們臺鐵公司杜董事長杜董事長"},{"start":4272.711,"end":4287.269,"text":"好部長董事長早委員早我想這樣啦因為我們交通委員會針對臺鐵當然期待也算蠻高的啦那當然今天有一些有關的一個單位"},{"start":4288.61,"end":4313.083,"text":"也通通來包括什麼文化、鐵道文化等等這些那就代表什麼就代表本委員會的委員確實對於臺鐵公司整個改造是非常重視的那第一個本席比較重視的是安全還有品質"},{"start":4314.574,"end":4336.409,"text":"所以這兩者之間有了品質才有漲價的空間有了安全、理克才有信心去做臺鐵所以以我個人所了解從基層到現在為止我一直在鼓勵杜董事長還有我們臺鐵所有的員工"},{"start":4337.762,"end":4360.988,"text":"也就是改為民營化、國營公司化的時候確確實實有很多的空間是真的董事長跟董事會就可以去做決定那我這裡有兩個問題就必須要請教我們杜董事長第一個"},{"start":4362.148,"end":4378.102,"text":"到底我們現在3000型的新的自強號你們有沒有發現到現在交車的時候現在到底他這個新車種這3000型的新車種"},{"start":4382.486,"end":4398.648,"text":"你認為它的設計因為我們大家知道車體是日本的但是內裝是我們台灣的那所以在這裡你有沒有去發現到這個新車型的當中當然是我們的噱頭"},{"start":4399.87,"end":4412.935,"text":"也是我們改變形象的第一關那你認為杜董事長你有沒有去發現到三千型的這些新制強號他有什麼缺點沒有你們有沒有去發現"},{"start":4414.406,"end":4435.96,"text":"跟委員報告其實三千型自強號有剛剛委員講的這種方式也是我們推動國產化中間的一環那的確這個車子進來其實它整體表現以我的經驗是不錯的但是呢的確也有一些細節是有待改善的"},{"start":4437.28,"end":4463.629,"text":"舉例呢我看看你們有沒有自己有沒有發現是是是比如說這個三線型它的座椅因為當初在設計的時候我們是以防火安全性為前提那再過來就是服衣美學所以座椅的部分可能在旅客舒適度跟使用便利度方面還有進步的空間好"},{"start":4464.81,"end":4475.303,"text":"杜總長我這裡所接到的我們的客戶所承坐以後他的感受第一個他的座椅根本不舒服啊"},{"start":4477.011,"end":4497.791,"text":"不要談美學人工基本的這些人工美學都不足所以這個部分我想建議杜董事長你們既然有改造小組這些東西更小的東西做到零缺點就等於你們的品質是提升的"},{"start":4499.152,"end":4507.94,"text":"連這些座椅最基本的都沒有辦法改進你說你改進品質你要漲價我可以跟你講部長"},{"start":4509.855,"end":4534.587,"text":"老百姓絕對反彈。第一個,咒語的問題,既然是我們台灣做的,那為什麼會做成這樣?欸,台灣各項的品質啊,不亞於任何一個國家啦,所以為什麼會做成這樣?所以,杜董事長,這個要記起來。是。第二個,欸,充電器,既然有這個水準,你把它藏在底下幹什麼?"},{"start":4535.816,"end":4563.412,"text":"沒有人看到我要插這個插頭的時候我還要低下來那個起來的時候打到椅子受傷的時候本來是一個很好的插頭你為什麼要害他受傷呢這個也是設計不良設計不良另外一個最簡單的既然可以放杯子裡面你設計那麼小幹什麼"},{"start":4565.407,"end":4580.499,"text":"你設計那麼小幹什麼連一瓶飲料都沒有辦法放進去啊那個有設計跟沒有設計差多少這個難道說我們都不知道嗎所以飲用這麼多的"},{"start":4583.334,"end":4608.725,"text":"車體進來是我們要創新的一種讓人家感覺我是有新車不是說坐我台鐵都坐那個古老古潮的車這是很好的但是為什麼這麼簡單的小問題你們都沒有去發現報告委員您所提示的這個剛好也是我自己曾做的經驗當時我有跟杜董事長討論那也確實要做改進是不是請杜董事長可以"},{"start":4609.005,"end":4625.864,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員講的這三個包括座椅的舒適度的改善還有衝動座移設都董事長來你不要占用我的時間我提供給你們就是把它列入你們列入檢討的一份我們已經在改善"},{"start":4626.465,"end":4646.595,"text":"所以這些東西所以我們說實在民意代表本來發現問題就提供給你們做參考但是就是要看你們做與不做這個問題但是我不希望我個人在整個政界在執行的時候我提供給你你沒有給我答案"},{"start":4647.754,"end":4673.556,"text":"請你放心下一次有機會我們會拜託召委還在排那那個時候我講話就不太客氣所以杜董你把它列下來雖然小問題但是因為小問題解決就沒有大問題所以就沒有大問題所以小問題解決自然品質就會上來所以我要給杜董事長"},{"start":4674.767,"end":4702.413,"text":"也要拜託我們部長你是一個年輕有為所以我希望跟別人不一樣小問題立委所指正的東西就是你們改進的方向嘛所以我希望我們臺鐵是要借進日本的機會到現在為止臺鐵只有一個做的讓我感覺到非常歷史悠久、認念不忘的就是你們的便當"},{"start":4703.837,"end":4724.312,"text":"你們的便當但是你們的便當你們為什麼會這樣你們跟日本是連結起來的他改進你們也進步那我們進步他也改進這樣的起來這種東西到現在為止人家是肯定的有沒有辦法我們臺鐵公司能夠"},{"start":4725.333,"end":4726.555,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":4742.165,"end":4762.744,"text":"官某捷運所以這幾點我也要拜託部長要去監督杜董事長你要拿出你的魄力另外一個這個跟部長就有關部長上任以後我很欽佩的就是你到臺中車站的時候第一個也就是我們安全閘門的問題臺鐵現在都沒有捷運有了高鐵有"},{"start":4767.869,"end":4785.8,"text":"幾乎是我們歷史悠久的台鐵我們是國營欸你們都不重視這種這種那個那個安全道這些問題嗎所以部長來那要做還是不做這個我們在10月份會做決標第一個這個適用的這個月台的"},{"start":4786.34,"end":4814.346,"text":"月臺門會在高雄來試辦那我們希望在明年底之前先做好先做好第一個那如果因為我們的臺鐵系統比較複雜一些它的閘門的每一臺車的門的位置都不一樣所以那閘門會比較特殊一點那這個部分我們先試辦如果高雄試辦的成效不錯那我們就會開始爭取預算我們希望在人比較人潮比較多的月臺我們優先來施作這個沒有啦六都裡面你像"},{"start":4815.106,"end":4833.681,"text":"你像臺中啊臺北啊這是人口比較密集的地方啊說實在話這個要盡快做可是有一點喔部長我跟你投訴我看來看去你們沒有預算有啦1.5億的預算是高雄的那個試用的這個月台門"},{"start":4834.201,"end":4848.534,"text":"那它可以做好之後我們就會再爭取新的預算如果做得好的話我們會爭取我們是適用的部分有編列有有有我們編在那個一般建築一般建築所以我看沒有專案的編列預算我還是很仔細"},{"start":4849.395,"end":4871.616,"text":"去注意一下你是編列到一般的建築裡面是不是是是是所以這個要特別我們115年會有一個專案的處理好啦部長我相信啦因為你發現問題就已經把老百姓所需要的東西你已經看到安全非常重要所以我們一年啊我們一年啊"},{"start":4872.884,"end":4901.463,"text":"是跌下去那個鐵道欸死了不少人欸這個要特別小心所以我還是要鼓勵杜董事長還有請求我們這個陳部長要有潛力的去監督讓用一年三年五年把臺鐵偷胎放骨這樣大家才會對交通部對臺鐵有信心好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4904.485,"end":4905.106,"text":"臺鐵十大酷刑、鐵板椅子、跪著插USB"},{"start":4923.479,"end":4940.354,"text":"那請杜董事長拜託啦那個當年是哪些人做的因為我現在對於這些的廠商我真的非常有興趣得標能力非常高怎麼會設計這種出來能夠把那個得標資訊整理一下給我們交通委員會謝謝好接下來請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":4950.797,"end":4955.386,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長跟民航局長交通部部長,來陳部長何局長"},{"start":4969.811,"end":4995.065,"text":"謝謝部長先跟部長報告我們高碼航線很謝謝民航局跟交通部的辛苦現在也已經開始11月6號要首航起飛我們的市長包括馬祖的縣長也會飛過來陪我們市長一起從高雄飛到馬祖那天是一個應該是一個蠻熱鬧的一個慶祝的活動"},{"start":4999.06,"end":5004.818,"text":"那當然我在想事情會想比較遠啦就是說飛一個月之後呢"},{"start":5007.377,"end":5031.783,"text":"報告委員我們現在會爭取說我們現在先用包機復航的方式因為在20年前很像也有試過那之後飛了半年之後那個航運量不足所以就關了那我們現在也希望再試一次看看就是說試試看如果說需求量有我們未來固定的航班就會有我先請教部長一個政策"},{"start":5032.823,"end":5046.979,"text":"我們當部長當然要想得比較長遠,一個政策如果事半的時間是一個月,歡歡喜喜的慶祝一個月,落落落落的收場,這樣子對我們部長的顏面何在?"},{"start":5049.235,"end":5078.134,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實我昨天也有開一個協調會跟陳雪生委員還有李坤哲委員我們也開一個協調會就是到底後續要如何能延續下去所以我大概先簡單跟部長報告就是說希望部長想辦法啦因為昨天是沒有人有想到辦法那就是說我們分短中長期啦長期我們當然是希望能夠變成固定航班"},{"start":5079.872,"end":5103.261,"text":"那短期呢是這一個月我實在是嚇死了一個月我今天如果去風光的開幕風光的做過去就一個月就沒了我不知道怎麼跟鄉親交代您說的這個很重要所以中期我是覺得我要跟部長報告跟要求啦你至少要半年嘛"},{"start":5104.639,"end":5121.317,"text":"或者是說你試用期間我們一個人員進來試用期間也三個月那我們進來試一個月然後後續有一餐沒一餐的還不知道在哪裡所以是不是可以請部長跟民航局長或者是跟哪一些相關單位去協調"},{"start":5122.938,"end":5148.372,"text":"昨天我是協調不出一個具體的方案啦那我希望說部長跟局長可以把這個方案協調好至少我不容許一個月就停飛啦這個部長你會容許嗎報告委員齁您昨天開完協調會之後我們大概知道內容啦齁那我們也去找出一些問題例如說現在加油上面的問題我知道有很多的問題這個必須要先克服是的那這個克服之後委員希望讓他時間再拉長"},{"start":5149.973,"end":5158.937,"text":"這個我會請民航局,因為目前補助的費用我們是朝觀光方面,觀光署那邊用補助的方式來包機。沒關係啦,我先跟部長做一個簡單的概念,就是我的觀念很簡單,我不容許一個月就停了。"},{"start":5165.39,"end":5182.189,"text":"了解那相關的單位有很多的需要去克服的問題包括我去拜訪華信我跟中友聯絡事實上我也知道有很多困難這個我都很了解只是昨天還找不到方案"},{"start":5183.437,"end":5197.716,"text":"因為當然最後的方案還是錢的問題如何能夠大家妥適的分配可以完成所以我只是要跟部長強調這一點我不容許一個月就停了"},{"start":5199.698,"end":5216.391,"text":"這個人民的情感情何以堪我相信部長也不會說我一個交通部長我一個政策下去我一個月事辦他就停了這個當部長應該也不會接受吧我們如果有的問題可以解決延長的部分我們會照委員的要求我們會來延長看怎麼延長"},{"start":5217.191,"end":5241.443,"text":"對啦,所以希望部長可以承諾啦不要一個月就停啦好不好好,就照委員的意思,但我就說那個油的問題我們解決我們後續不會讓它只有一個月對,我知道困難,因為我也問了很多的單位,困難點我知道在哪裡但是需要部長有這個魄力去處理,要不然真的會贏效大方我們民進黨這次靠業工做一個月就停了"},{"start":5242.924,"end":5263.45,"text":"這是一個綠色執政品質保證,我們一定要顯現出那個魄力跟長遠的規劃。但是如果是我做部長,我如果賠一個月的錢,我不要賠。你懂我意思嗎?所以我覺得這是當部長可能比較辛苦的地方,希望讓部長跟局長想辦法。好,這個我們來努力。好,謝謝。好,那個臺鐵"},{"start":5272.961,"end":5302.444,"text":"上一次部長在你不在那我有跟部長報告說那個我鳳山車站的招標現在又把那個截止日期延長一個月嘛對不對是是那有信心嗎有那個我們現在還另外還同時還在積極的有信心我現在我其實也只是希望一個答案啦就是我一直在擔心那那個董事長有信心嗎有我有信心完成"},{"start":5303.844,"end":5308.606,"text":"實際上我們高雄高鐵延伸到高雄車站是我們高雄人的希望也是高雄人的痛如果"},{"start":5329.261,"end":5353.642,"text":"吳敦義當市長毛志國當部長那個時候可以直接規劃的話我們今天不用痛兩次那我們鐵路地下化痛一次現在又要痛一次事實上我們真的是很不捨那當然就是說如果長痛跟短痛我們要選擇最後還是短痛再接受10年的話那規劃"},{"start":5355.1,"end":5383.701,"text":"要怎麼樣去減少傷害我想南高雄的人大部分的人都希望可以拉到高雄站但是就在那周遭的居民很害怕我要被挖10年所以這個部分是不是交通部跟鐵道局有一個大概預計的規劃決定了沒有報告委員目前高鐵延伸屏東的案子目前是兩個案子"},{"start":5384.161,"end":5408.888,"text":"我們還沒有到最後決定大概在年底我們希望在年底收攏大家的意見之後能夠做決定那兩個方案其實都在評估那如果是高雄案的話我很清楚說高雄的鄉親跟委員們其實都有在反映很擔心的那個黑暗期的10年又再恢復一次啦那我要跟委員報告就是說上一次的這個鐵道的地下化的過程當中是大量的民挖"},{"start":5409.528,"end":5432.666,"text":"然後再加上原本的軌道還在運行當中所以那影響的面積其實相當的大對交通的影響也相當大未來當然現在鐵軌已經下去了嘛我們一定會用大量的這個潛盾的模式減少民挖不會說完全沒民挖但減少民挖那大量潛盾再來就是說對於綠岩道我知道現在鐵軌下地之後有很多的綠岩道我們盡量減少破壞"},{"start":5434.187,"end":5460.507,"text":"那另外交通方面的影響我們也會用辦辦施工的方式讓交通的影響能夠降低那這個部分也都在做規劃跟討論當中幾乎已經快定案了嘛 對不對那我再提醒一下就是說我們高雄、鳳山、屏東事實上一起思考啦如果說一定是到高雄車站的話那鳳山、屏東一起思考"},{"start":5461.823,"end":5480.04,"text":"那最後就是說如果在過去那個聽說那個什麼上面我們那個蓋得很漂亮的那個建築還有轉運站會被拆掉那個應該是一個誤解跟誤會啦現在我們要蓋的那個天棚跟那個轉運站的整個上面很漂亮的建築物大家期待很久那個完全沒有影響"},{"start":5480.52,"end":5480.94,"text":"我們南高雄的很誠懇的、很期盼"},{"start":5509.48,"end":5537.449,"text":"高鐵可以到高雄站甚至鳳山站那住附近的很痛是希望說交通部盡量去減少傷害那最後就是說事實上交通部應該再考慮到就是說我今天如果到高雄站的話我跟周遭的所有的商圈等等的連結應該要做一個整體的包括交通就整體的做一個診病的思考不要只是說我通過了以後其他都是你們的事我通過到那裡"},{"start":5538.389,"end":5539.45,"text":"接下來有請林沛翔委員發言"},{"start":5578.559,"end":5587.235,"text":"謝謝主席有請陳部長還有那個交通部陳部長鐵道局楊局長跟我們台鐵的杜董事長杜董事長"},{"start":5596.179,"end":5623.863,"text":"呃部長我記得沒有錯的話這個應該是週末的時候既然有強降雨那在於暖暖車站那邊發生說鐵那個軌道就直接被這個淹死的豪大豪大雨給淹沒那這個造成是說當地的這個旁邊在他們這些neighboring community就是旁邊鄰近的住戶還有整個鐵還有整個北回鐵路尤其在暖暖端這邊我記得沒有錯北回鐵路是暖暖端是必須"},{"start":5624.583,"end":5640.705,"text":"畢竟知道那變成是說這個雖然很快就雨就散掉了但是畢竟來講這整個癱瘓了整個北匯鐵路系統那我就想請問說那現在那個狀況目前要怎麼樣去把它改善目前短期間怎麼把它改善"},{"start":5641.425,"end":5664.602,"text":"短時強降雨其實我覺得極端氣候之後時常會遇到所以過去有一些過去有一些不太會淹的地方可能現在都會淹那過去淹水頻率低的地方現在可能也會變高所以對於那個車站的排水的短期的改善目前臺鐵已經在做準備那也已經在做計畫準備要做短期的這個排水的改善那這個部分大概是一個部分"},{"start":5665.622,"end":5683.314,"text":"其實我這邊要提議一件事以前曾經就有委員提過有關暖暖車站的鐵路外移因為現在這個平交道嚴格講起來是剛好在暖暖市暖暖的市區的中心那為什麼我會再重新提這個案子的原因是說一方面這個能夠把這個我們現在遇到的淹水問題能夠徹底解決"},{"start":5687.296,"end":5716.237,"text":"那第二個來講的話對於北迴鐵路我知道現在以如果從路面上來如果從圖面上來看的話暖暖鐵道鐵道如果能夠外移成功那會對於整個北迴鐵路可以所謂的截彎取直可以對於整個的北迴鐵路的量能跟班次能夠做增加那嚴格講起來對我們的整個北迴鐵路的整個鐵路的這capacity量能是有很大很常駐的很常駐的發展的那第三個也是因為暖暖市區暖暖區現在因為這個溢出效應這方面"},{"start":5717.598,"end":5734.632,"text":"這個都會去溢出效應的結果因為不管是在基隆市現在房價都在漲房價都在漲建案也在蓋但是生活機能的增加是要靠都市計畫是要靠有關空地出來才能把那邊不管是醫院、學校還是各方面的機能"},{"start":5734.992,"end":5752.862,"text":"所以變成是說如果能夠鐵路能夠外移到我記得是趙淵遠路的話會對於這個我們整個暖暖基隆市暖暖市區這邊的幫助會相當大那不知道部長可不可以幫協助說這方面先做個可行性研究看是否能夠能夠把這鐵路外移這件事情把它整整"},{"start":5753.682,"end":5781.048,"text":"您在建議的如果對北迴線來講的話是一個安全比較好的狀態底下我剛有說過如果在極端氣候之下那個地方時常在淹水那我們短期的這個排水的部分做完之後如果成效不好的話那確實是有可能需要去討論到有沒有要改線或改道的部分那這個部分因為是蠻大的議題委員您交代那我們先內部先來做討論一下研議一下看有沒有這樣的可能性"},{"start":5782.048,"end":5808.428,"text":"委員剛剛有說過過去很像有討論過這個議題那我們也會調出說過去討論這個議題的過程當中遇到哪些困難點那我們一起來拿出來討論我記得20年前劉恩雄委員跟徐少平委員都曾經一起討論過這個議題所以說這個議題後來不知道為什麼事情嚴格了但是現在遇到極端氣候同樣的地方又發生同樣的事情所以我覺得這個案子我會建議說真的拿出來好好討論一下我們拿出來討論"},{"start":5810.169,"end":5826.714,"text":"好那那第二個是有關實事題最近除了這個暖暖這個鐵路淹水之外其實上個禮拜五那國道1號在暖暖交通道附近火燒車昨天那又遇到說在國道1號北國道1號南下遇到火"},{"start":5828.435,"end":5842.569,"text":"我遇到貨櫃車、跑馬故障昨天晚上又遇到說北上的時候遇到很我人在9026我人在南港三三館所以我那時候可能直接跟公路局的公務員科長直接有點抱怨"},{"start":5843.49,"end":5865.74,"text":"那可是我同時之間我有收到其他四條線也是一個半小時上不了車的狀況甚至在今天早上在汐止大同路上面的火災都造成說直接的汐止大同路上面的火災造成我剛剛九點半的時候這邊這個這個這個用車才才疏解所以連續連續兩天我們就是三次尖峰十三的大塞車"},{"start":5866.6,"end":5887.133,"text":"那變成說昨天晚上 禮拜五晚上也是大塞車變成全國都報道 變成說這基隆市到臺北上班的通勤族在國道客運上面這個塞車已經是一個很悲哀的常態其實這一點都不應該笑 可是我有點無奈變成是說 我想請問一下針對國道客運有沒有所謂的SOP有沒有所謂的那個臨時應變的機制可以讓國道客運再把"},{"start":5892.436,"end":5916.066,"text":"臺北的這些站點全部載完該站的乘客之後直接到直接回基隆可是不用經過本來預定的路線假使國營現在是直報也就是說每小時不到10公里的時速那是不是可以直接走三高當我們看從1968還是從其他的建設系統看到三高其實是暢通的是可以疏散的是不是有這個機制那如何能夠啟動"},{"start":5918.69,"end":5938.349,"text":"報告委員您說的這個機制我覺得相當重要像國道5號它也有國道客運那當它擁塞的時候我有問我們公路局的同仁有沒有這樣子的SOP可以讓他不要走國道5號我們走其他的線因為對旅客來說我上站的地方有辦法上我要下站的地方有辦法下就好"},{"start":5938.729,"end":5956.406,"text":"但中間經過國道這個部分他不會很介意啦當然希望可以快但當不能快的時候如果需要轉道的部分可不可以那我們的同仁跟我回應是可以的這個沒有問題那基隆確實我們這段時間有看到那個交流道攤方啦或者是火燒車等等的問題有時候國道1號確實不能走了"},{"start":5958.067,"end":5987.644,"text":"那這個也牽扯到路權的問題那客運他不會主動說想要轉道那但因為有這個路權的限制但如果我們有一套的SOP建立起來跟地方政府也好跟客運業者也好講好如果國道1號很擁塞的狀況底下可不可以繞到其他的地方上站點跟下站點一樣那國道的部分我們可以用一個臨時路權的方案那這個部分委員您交代我們來研究這個部分應該是可行可以做得到的"},{"start":5987.884,"end":6016.801,"text":"我覺得這上面來講的就是不只是公路局還有高工局這兩邊要互相能夠一起演繹這個事因為當下高工局發現說這邊路上那個高速公路上面已經發生事故已經擁捨到不行了甚至在尖峰時段已經影響到整個通勤交通的時候那這時候緊急應變機制要早點出來所以早出來的話我認為說其實不會有人是會介意多繞點路可是大家都不喜歡塞車因為塞車不知道什麼時候能解決"},{"start":6017.341,"end":6034.27,"text":"而且尤其是在臺北在等車的人他們看到車子沒有來他們期待在那邊等車已經很辛苦了可是在那邊等著車子卻不知道什麼時候來他們的怒氣跟怨氣是直接對於不管是誰不管是地方政府還是中央政府他們直接怒氣是直接衝著"},{"start":6034.95,"end":6062.34,"text":"衝著我們公部門的不作為而來的那這公部門也沒有辦法遲遲的跟他們解釋當下也無法解釋清楚你不可能在這個收購百貨前面跟他們講說現在在塞車因為現在我也不知道怎麼去做這件事情但是他們會期待說不要等一個小時半在臺北只好等著塞車回基隆這點是我必須要跟部長說這邊請部長這邊要大力大力去推動這個案子是這個部分我們來跟客運業者大家來協調一個臨時應變的基礎"},{"start":6064.201,"end":6077.066,"text":"還有另外一個就是也是我今天針對今天早上這個大同路戲那個戲子大同路火災所想到的我記得上個會期好像有提過說要把國一從五堵這邊要拓寬對吧"},{"start":6078.331,"end":6095.331,"text":"五堵到五堵到七堵這邊要拓寬的案子這個可能要請這個那個部長之後日後要追蹤一下那我期待說我回去幫那邊縣長辦個會館因為目前看起來不管什麼時段從那個汐止到五堵這邊永遠是塞車的"},{"start":6096.312,"end":6122.124,"text":"市中原市拆車除非半夜不然從北上五堵西直到五堵這邊天天在拆車甚至有人跟我提過說能不能直接開放路間直接遍地三條線那當然是對安全來講是很大的很大的危險但是我會覺得說這個案子這個拓寬的案子我記得上個會期就有委員提到這個事情那我覺得這個案子的話請交通部這邊給我們一個報告甚至跟我們講騎乘那怎麼樣去做會更好一點好不好好謝謝委員"},{"start":6128.69,"end":6132.653,"text":"好,謝謝林佩祥委員。接下來有請何新淳委員發言。呃,謝謝主席,還有我們盧昭偉。呃,我們請那個陳世凱部長。好,交通部陳部長。部長好。哎,委員好。"},{"start":6154.776,"end":6179.127,"text":"在進入這個臺鐵的諮詢之前還是在提醒在拜託對我們臺中清泉鋼機場的國際航線你要全力來支持要增加這個一定會支持一定支持跟民航局、核軍隊有特別交代一定要支持好那我們希望在近期內可以看到那接著我要問臺我們的軌道部長來自臺中所以對"},{"start":6180.347,"end":6208.632,"text":"台中捷運路網非常清楚那我們現在呢台中捷運已經落後台北30年了這個昨天市府自己講的那我們現在要拼這個全線推進全線開工那這個需要很大很大中央的支持我現在先整理出來這個部長應該也非常熟悉大屏幕的屯區的環狀線現在台中市政府可行性研究在修正當中那藍線呢"},{"start":6210.172,"end":6234.974,"text":"已經核定那基本設計現在交通部正在審議那藍線還有一個延伸太平屯區的是我們縣政府對不起臺中市政府可行性研究也還在修正當中那中央也支持我知道我們過去那個李部長也很支持局限呢我們呢已經呢基本原則同意同意那現在可行性研究要修正修正報告這個月"},{"start":6237.276,"end":6254.403,"text":"十月一號交通部已經收到那現在正在審議當中那還有兩條線就是局線的延伸清水我們希望台中市政府可以提出這個可行性的一個評估那我們中央來補助這個部分補助沒有問題現在等台中市政府提出"},{"start":6255.743,"end":6275.715,"text":"那我們還爭取一個崇德豐原縣那台中市政府已經提出中央已經合訂了1170萬來辦理所謂的可行性研究我們會補助1170萬這個你們已經合訂了啦各位部長上次有承諾那也真的馬上說到做到了所以非常感謝那當然綠線的延伸這個我們也繼續在推動當中那我現在"},{"start":6280.057,"end":6294.626,"text":"基本上就是要請部長支持一件事因為之前的李孟業、李部長有支持我在7月8號有考察我們臺中的捷運路網那時候在我們的臺中火車站裡面那裡有一個藍線跟橘線會交叉"},{"start":6295.686,"end":6310.383,"text":"交叉的轉乘站目前我們是在甘城離台中市的火車站這個平台大概動線有380公尺所以我們那一次考察的時候有認為"},{"start":6311.704,"end":6335.742,"text":"方向決議距離的動線這個380公尺希望把它縮短不管用什麼方式我相信這個是專業上技術上一定做得到的因為我們可以預期預期未來這個臺中市捷運入網成型之後這裡的一個轉運的樞紐還有這個人潮一定是非常多的所以我接著就要問一下部長"},{"start":6337.148,"end":6352.77,"text":"我剛剛提到了現在的捷運藍線、橘線是在台中車站的甘城交會那距離380公尺非常不方便那甘城之後我們在7月8號的那一次考察我們不管藍綠的立委"},{"start":6354.432,"end":6371.491,"text":"還有了很多的市議員有提出一個建議那個建議就是在現行規劃於臺中車站甘城的那個站交會之外我們有沒有可能在增設一站是比較連結這個臺鐵的火車站比較近距離的"},{"start":6376.936,"end":6402.771,"text":"那這個部分我現在就要問說之前的李孟彥部長他支持共戰那希望解決這個問題那現在呢我碰到一個當時候考察時候也提到大車站計畫裡面我們曾經有一個臺鐵的都更那這個都更現在目前的進度呢因為從107年就提出來了對目前正在進行這個都更的過程那這個過程應該是在臺鐵局長要不要"},{"start":6407.142,"end":6411.083,"text":"這個因為上一次會刊跟委員報告上一次會刊那個就是我們上次交通委員會去考察啦我記得不分藍綠的委員都到了那考察現場委員應該清楚就是說本來我們這個都更的規劃都已經完成了要提報可是因為現在那個預計那個車站會往南移嘛"},{"start":6435.191,"end":6451.024,"text":"那所以說他那個不是往南移喔那個方案有好幾個方案喔我還記得7月8號考察的現場除了現在既有的規劃的方案ABC之外我們又有一個公司提出另外一個方案是說甘城不動"},{"start":6452.425,"end":6480.678,"text":"不移因為你們早就公告早就已經讓地方知道說那裡會有一個甘城站那我們現在是希望解決380公尺的距離那這個動線我們希望這個廊道不是戶外可以呢戶外跟室內兼顧那室內呢考量成本我們有好幾個方案其中一個方案是什麼我們有沒有可能再增設一站捷運的捷運站"},{"start":6482.18,"end":6485.732,"text":"離台中車站比較近的捷運站再增設一個"},{"start":6487.352,"end":6511.75,"text":"主那次的考察是我主持的所以我記得很清楚所以我們現在希望是不分藍綠的委員的共識我們要解決這一個大平台380公尺的這一個距離如何能夠把它化為是安全舒適而且是未來真的達到轉運效果的那那個方案是什麼那牽涉到你的都更啊"},{"start":6512.642,"end":6526.781,"text":"那個應該跟委包應該這樣齁就是說在那個可言裡面他如果把這個方案定下來以後我們就可以馬上來推動報告委員其實台中市政府如果把方案定說要經過台鐵的那一塊地台鐵"},{"start":6528.382,"end":6547.233,"text":"臺鐵會來配合那如果臺中市政府提出交通部一定支持因為這個真的對兩站的那個距離的拉近相當有幫助那這個部分會照委員您所建議的方案來進行但要由臺中市政府他們來提但是我現在碰到一個問題啊總不能大家等來等過去啊"},{"start":6548.274,"end":6570.424,"text":"你說你要等臺中市政府那臺中市政府說啊臺鐵的這個都跟怎樣所以兩方我記得在7月8號的考察那個會議現場我們也有要求臺鐵跟臺中市政府能夠組成一個溝通平臺定期的來討論這一件事情那到底有沒有組成有沒有談過啊之前有談過嗎"},{"start":6573.359,"end":6589.23,"text":"之前沒有談到現在還沒有談過從7月8號到現在現在10月中旬了您今天提到這件事我們趕快要求鐵道局也好臺鐵公司也好主動的去找臺中市政府來討論這件事是嗎是要快速來解決這個問題我再拜託部長拜託我們董事長拜託局長、楊局長"},{"start":6594.593,"end":6607.002,"text":"這個真的要兩方面中央地方大家一起合作不要說誰在等誰不要等來等去你看從7月8號的考察到現在10月中旬了單來單過去本來說要建立一個溝通平台要成立一個專案小組也好或者是溝通平台也好要定期的來開會溝通結果到現在等了三個多月了也還沒等到原來連第一次都還沒有我現在是拜託好不好"},{"start":6624.593,"end":6638.962,"text":"我們主動去建立這個溝通平台我們定期的跟台中市政府來溝通我們希望台中市政府趕快確定是不是在甘城之外可以增設這一個"},{"start":6641.503,"end":6659.823,"text":"結運站然後呢把這個距離380公尺的這個從結運的這個藍線跟橘線的這個交匯處到中間的這個客運的轉運站到我們火車站這380公尺的這個距離我們真的要想出一個最好的方法來解決嘛"},{"start":6661.004,"end":6689.97,"text":"那以現在的科技以現在的專業我相信一定做得到的所以拜託主動跟臺中市政府溝通因為一旦這個增設的這個站體有確定你們的都更才有可能確定嘛那你雙方都確定的時候才可以進行招商你的資產才可以活化你這個大火車站的計畫才能夠完整嘛你要知道我們臺中的城區要"},{"start":6691.33,"end":6717.208,"text":"發展就是靠你們啦拜託啦主動一點好不好我們一起努力是我要求他們主動而且快速的去跟台中市政府是是是是這樣子我們才能夠帶動台中城區的發展好不好部長拜託那什麼時候可以給我消息你們什麼時候要主動盡快給委員書盡快你先你現在今天會後就趕快定時間好不好會後直接去找找你報告好不好好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":6721.997,"end":6741.887,"text":"好,謝謝何新春委員,現在請魯明哲委員上臺好,謝謝主席,有請我們數位部黃部長國防部楊基隆、楊次長,謝謝委員好"},{"start":6749.52,"end":6769.43,"text":"好 這個部長還有我們國防部次長謝謝次長今天撥空過來那因為最近你剛剛也做了一個簡報國防部包括因為財產申報有一些不該留出來的名冊留到了不該的位置那現在這個問題但是對數位部來講"},{"start":6772.712,"end":6801.315,"text":"這是我們兩年前你現在成立你也兩歲了成立數位部大家的一個期待我們一直在想到底有沒有做到做到多少事實上這兩年來各個機關政府機關那民間的都不算了很多的資料外洩一室一室外流這等等的這個事件一直不斷那直到了我們最近這個國安部這個問題那我先請次長說明一下好不好就是說"},{"start":6802.156,"end":6819.243,"text":"財產申報然後把這個很多的高層國防部各單位的應該要申報的人員顯然都是蠻高層的作為一個附件這個整包送出啊那送發的對象有多少人多少單位Mail給多少人"},{"start":6820.202,"end":6842.449,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個送發的對象就有28個單位28個單位嗎28個單位對28個單位因為他送發的途徑是經由我們軍網的軍網這個軍網的這個系統來做公文做電子公文的傳輸OK是軍網那你28個單位都在同一個基地嗎全台灣各地嘛對不對"},{"start":6844.566,"end":6872.91,"text":"對,也不是說全臺灣問題,就是在大概……都是走你們,全臺灣走你們的軍網?是,是,走我們的軍網。好,那第二個呢,發生這個問題的時候,你做了一個很重要的動作,叫回收。是。回收的意義是什麼?一個Mail出去,這樣啦,我們常常自己PO文啦,我們不管走什麼網,LINE不小心PO出去了。像我們沛翔委員有時候,誒,不該弄的照片,假設被我看到了,他收回沒有用,你知道嗎?"},{"start":6873.61,"end":6899.137,"text":"或他突然罵我一句收回沒有我不太懂啊這個處理的方式當然你收回不再擴張那可是其實對於有一些機密資料要外洩的時候你送到單位兩個最主要的問題收件人那邊可不可能收件的單位他已經看到不管通過截圖或者任何一個方式然後甚至他存留"},{"start":6900.037,"end":6918.423,"text":"他搞不好有時候好意不好意有時候我們發覺常常消息漏出去是好意你知道嗎你看我跟怎麼樣怎麼樣這個什麼事情所以這第一個我覺得某種程度的危險資安的危險是已經造成了部長你覺得我講的對不對啊"},{"start":6919.823,"end":6938.954,"text":"他現在收回他現在你你現在在收回的部分其實如果人家該要留存的或者你的軍網我們真的希望他是百分之百安全啦一方面是在網路上可能被截走第二方面是在接收端可能會被傳出去你們這樣的這樣好吧市長你先講你會不會擔心啊"},{"start":6940.295,"end":6958.693,"text":"市長你會不會擔心跟委員報告我們這份公文首先回答委員第一個問題就是這份公文我剛剛報告過就是說軍網這樣傳輸但是都在我們內部的環境裡面那我們內部的環境它是有實體隔離的所以它不會隨隨便便就外流到這個"},{"start":6960.515,"end":6985.804,"text":"一般的民間或公務機關去。這都在我們軍網裡面傳輸。那這個傳輸出去之後,剛剛您問的,說怎麼回收?通常它再回到我們的這個伺服器來。對,我知道啦。它收件人如果存入另外一個檔案或怎麼樣,它已經存了。不管是用PDF、DOC檔案,它要存就存了啦。你也沒辦法控制。最重要說,這麼神秘,我怎麼會知道?"},{"start":6987.507,"end":7008.878,"text":"這麼神秘軍網完全不洩漏我們28個單位都是很棒不會有媒體知道不會有外界知道你自己去想但是我覺得擔心一件事因為你剛剛講說感覺好像問題不大其實我覺得我是蠻憂心的因為在這次我們最近我們看現在戰爭形態變化太大我們看以巴這個戰士"},{"start":7010.279,"end":7010.919,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告"},{"start":7039.315,"end":7040.115,"text":"所以除外除了國防部之外還有誰?"},{"start":7074.432,"end":7093.339,"text":"所以你們過去兩年任何的一個作為我們問了半天所很多的問題你們要做的一個防護都進不了國防部因為國防部給你們所建立一個資安不管一個新的想法觀念因為唐豐部長講的太多了全國最新的一個潮流進不了國防部嘛"},{"start":7094.209,"end":7120.457,"text":"沒有 報告委員我們跟國防部雖然治安法沒有納管國防部但是國防部是我們情資協防的體系之一所以我們會有任何的攻擊情資我們會給國防部參考那國防部如果收集到攻擊情資他也會跟我們交流所以他是整體的國家的整體治安聯防的體系之一我們是有密切的合作只是說沒有納管他其實我覺得我第二個憂心就在這裡"},{"start":7122.097,"end":7137.275,"text":"因為我們希望我們國防部一切都很棒資安你也是第一名你比數位部還要強所有的先進的知識所有的跟數位現在的所有的攻擊你隨時都掌握這是我的期待"},{"start":7139.574,"end":7154.896,"text":"可是國軍內部我們現在的一個狀況是希望委員你都最好都不要什麼問這個也不要問那個也不要知道你那個知道的事你可能就可能泄密你可能就是不挺台灣可是問題就是我們就像我是最挺你們啦"},{"start":7155.717,"end":7182.17,"text":"國安部我們盡量不去問你們國軍辛苦啦!挺了半天我覺得你們內部這麼專業到什麼樣一個程度我們也看到我們數位部這兩年直接導入零信任的機制結果確實沒有國安部嘛!包括自行導入的機關也沒有寫到國安部國安部在你們的數位部成立之後我們原本希望對於全國所謂私安就是國安"},{"start":7183.07,"end":7210.567,"text":"司安就是國安但是國防更是國安啊所以你司安做好了你國防完完全全沒有辦法去納入或者把你們新建的一些制度把它進入導入的話我是覺得你的零信任制度原來到了國防部變成零接觸你跟他沒有接觸你的新的方法反正你也不用來看當然可能因為一些保密的一個機制啦所以這時候就會有兩個要件第一個你國防部自己要"},{"start":7211.508,"end":7213.929,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵道局局長"},{"start":7235.282,"end":7236.023,"text":"今年單純是委員員的疏失"},{"start":7264.778,"end":7291.871,"text":"人員變了嗎人員也是新人所以新的主管加新人可是問題是你知道這個部分因為治安你們自己去做可是對我來講我們外人後面看到了如果你們比一些公司的管制制度叫做double check或者系統幫你check系統發覺他有一些系統我不知道你會發展到這個地步如果沒有"},{"start":7292.901,"end":7302.714,"text":"你要存...請問一下是只有一個人的書師還有上級的主管有幾層去...這個資料出去經過了幾層人合格總共有五個人所以五個人都不知道沒看到"},{"start":7308.601,"end":7322.223,"text":"所以我可以這樣講說這件事情發生除了基層的我們都以為只有基層的人不小心小指一按所以這個部分以你們制度至少不管怎麼樣的不管電子簽或書面簽網上簽有簽到你嘛對不對是"},{"start":7327.352,"end":7354.903,"text":"好吧我今天其實請數位部來我們是希望數位部在資訊方面在資安方面甚至署長來要給你們很大的幫忙但是我覺得如果你們零接觸只是資訊的分享那我們現在只能期待你內部有非常好的管理機制但顯然現在是看到沒有所以次長可能要跟部長說我覺得這不是個案"},{"start":7355.763,"end":7374.736,"text":"一夜之秋到底還有任何一個情況在現在的一個戰爭模式上面我真的是希望你們要好好保護國軍這些的不管是將領一級的一個主管尤其我們的情報人員我覺得這個部分你們"},{"start":7376.533,"end":7405.015,"text":"不能這樣我覺得太疏忽了你做個結論好不好是是謝謝委員剛剛的指導我在這邊再跟委員報告一遍的確啦這個是我們承辦人員還有這個合適主管他的疏忽他並沒有去把這個電子公務裡面有關於這個附件這名冊的附件把它做個區隔所以有些部分比較機敏的人員他的他包含在這個名冊裡面那因為這個名冊本身他也只是一個"},{"start":7407.958,"end":7431.715,"text":"職務、職稱跟姓名他並沒有涉及到其他有關於個人的這些事市長不要再這樣講啦不要再這樣講我跟委員做說明跟委員做說明說另外一個這是真的就是純粹是這個人為疏忽這個我們我們必須要去檢討那這個資安上我們也去檢視一下在資安上我們是沒有問題現在國防部這個資安要求都是非常高的市長"},{"start":7432.475,"end":7433.776,"text":"有專業人士在這裡你們在"},{"start":7454.406,"end":7472.745,"text":"不涉及機密的情況我覺得事實上要跟你們的友軍專業單位做密切的交流最後我想請問一下最後我們政風你是政風處長嗎政風是主任主任嘛主任主任那你簽這個完之後你再上層簽給誰啊"},{"start":7475.916,"end":7476.056,"text":"好 謝謝盧銘哲委員"},{"start":7514.039,"end":7516.62,"text":"好接下來有請陳樹葉召委發言好謝謝主席請主席邀請陳部長還有杜葳董交通部陳部長杜董事長"},{"start":7538.264,"end":7561.228,"text":"部長早 委員好那就是針對今天我們就是這個臺鐵公司如何精進服務品質等等的這個議題那我們剛剛有看到就是說我們臺鐵公司董事長也有做這個報告就是大概針對幾個方向就是人員的待遇問題還有行車安全準點率還有行車投入"},{"start":7561.929,"end":7562.549,"text":"長站服務、鐵道觀光等。"},{"start":7577.865,"end":7600.524,"text":"起信會做調整我覺得這是一個好消息我想這個對於臺鐵公司的人員的服務的士氣應該是會有所鼓勵的那當然還是很多人在關心有關的這個初期獎金、夜點費還有這個危險津貼等等那這些是不是可以請部長再說明一下這個部分有沒有可能做調整那什麼時候會做調整"},{"start":7603.947,"end":7628.266,"text":"這次我們做的調整是基礎的底薪從業人員的部分我們先把它拉高那其他的部分我們陸續會來推進其他的部分我會一步一步來推進我知道臺鐵的員工們大家對於這方面的期待其實蠻高但是說實在的這個薪水的調整公司化之後我們一直在討論那我們目前先落實第一步把從業人員的這個薪水先拉高"},{"start":7628.906,"end":7651.725,"text":"跟我們的流用人員大家拉的比較接近一些才不會說同工不同酬的狀況我們希望這個部分先拉高那其他的部分我們跟臺鐵的董事長還在討論當中那這個部分我的態度其實很清楚我們從基層的員工的加薪開始努力基層先加之後再考慮高層的部分所以基層的部分我們會先努力"},{"start":7652.777,"end":7670.318,"text":"本席這邊是很肯定我們部長這邊這樣子的一個做法我們也知道臺鐵這個服務就是交通服務當然就是以人為主體所以你要讓這個臺鐵的員工有服務的熱忱才能夠提升這個品質我覺得這是最基本的"},{"start":7670.939,"end":7695.577,"text":"因為我們要讓這個臺鐵的員工讓他們在就是工作因為他們的工作負擔壓力還有工時這樣的考量下要平衡就是要對等就是他們的報酬跟他們的付出要能夠平衡我想這樣子才能夠讓他們有這個服務的熱忱然後相對的才能夠提升這個品質我想這個是最基本的所以這個是很重要"},{"start":7696.598,"end":7704.349,"text":"其次再來就是其實你要提升這個服務品質我覺得安全是最重要的安全是最重要對那我們也看到就是說我們為了要提升臺鐵的這個安全所以我們在這個2020年也有啟動了一個這個標案就是這個"},{"start":7714.262,"end":7733.277,"text":"臺鐵電務智慧化提升計畫耗制連鎖系統更新統包工程我想這個工程的目的就是希望提升這個準點率還有這個安全可是這樣子的一個標案目前進度大落後這個標案不曉得部長清楚嗎"},{"start":7733.757,"end":7748.77,"text":"而這個我清楚目前他們報給我的資訊到現在為止他們落後大概37%左右進度上確實是落後相當多那跟西門子之間的這個溝通的過程當中也確實相當辛苦臺鐵也組成了這個專案的小組"},{"start":7750.152,"end":7776.473,"text":"隨時在跟這個西門子在做這個工程上的溝通不過也跟委員報告就是說目前我們整個安全的這個系統的部分不會因為這個工程的延宕而有所影響因為現在目前安全的系統都還是正常運行當中只不過這個系統我們是希望未來更先進化更強化那這個部分後續的部分我們會繼續來追我們希望進度能夠趕快追上那跟西門子之間的溝通的落差能夠趕快補上"},{"start":7777.867,"end":7806.158,"text":"是那進度落後部長去了解原因在哪裡嗎?為什麼會進度落後?我覺得有幾個方面一方面就是說當時的飆商他的能力這是一個方面第二個方面是甲乙雙方也就是業主跟得標的廠商之間對於合約的這個認知的落差其實花了蠻多時間在溝通然後還有就是說西門子也就是得標的廠商他們在臺灣這邊的這個工作人員的量能"},{"start":7807.158,"end":7828.268,"text":"似乎是不足的那這個部分確實是有問題是就是說除了部長講的這些問題之外啊那本席所了解的就是說其中有一個我覺得這是一個很重要可能也是很嚴重的問題就是設計規範的問題我了解到的訊息好像是說我們臺鐵要求的對方不願意做有這種情形嗎"},{"start":7829.572,"end":7848.85,"text":"他們給我的報告是有這種情形有時候是不願意那有時候是說他沒這個材料但是當時的設計就是照這個設計影響到這個整個完成之後的安全性的問題所以我覺得這個部分我想可能就是所有問題之中最嚴重的一個點吧是不是"},{"start":7849.43,"end":7873.305,"text":"我們所有的進行都要合法合規而且要合乎當時的契約那即便是裡面有些零件或許現在沒有生產或者是無法使用那也要必須要用臺鐵能夠接受而且是可用的零件我們才會答應他那這個部分其實臺鐵他們有專案在處理對,所以有能力善後嗎?"},{"start":7875.178,"end":7897.442,"text":"該委員報告我們在努力剛剛委員提到一點很重要就是說我們還是以安全為前提今天我們照合約走也許大家的認知有點落差但是他提出來的案子解決的案子我們一定想審一定是安全的我們才會接受"},{"start":7898.23,"end":7917.167,"text":"對我們就是說在整個這個標案裡面就是安全為前提嗎那也不能說為了進度的問題然後有所退讓我想還是要以這個行車安全最終的一個考量是那我們也希望就是說部長這邊應該就是要積極的來督促臺鐵來解決這個問題"},{"start":7922.4,"end":7938.573,"text":"臺鐵有一個美學小組在各縣市的車站包括臺南車站、新竹車站還有英哥車站都在進行美學工程的改造計畫那我想請教一下在彰化縣有沒有這樣子的一個改造計畫我們請杜董事長"},{"start":7939.013,"end":7964.039,"text":"有有那個像現在我們二水站就是我們美學那個小組裡面就是有設審議有在進行的一個車站改造的計畫是那個二水車站也是集齊線的起點那它的歷史也超過百年了就是在日治時期建造的所以目前也登錄為限定的一個古蹟所以"},{"start":7966.3,"end":7983.656,"text":"以目前來講那這個支線就是也是一個觀光一個很重要的一個觀光的重點的支線那二水也是一個很漂亮的一個小鎮那我們也希望就是說透過這個二水車站的一個改造能夠帶動地方的一個觀光的一個發展"},{"start":7984.737,"end":8000.847,"text":"因為這邊蠻漂亮的部長如果有空可以來走一走因為他在過年的時候過年的時候那個花季啊就是那個櫻花盛開的時候那邊那個觀光客蠻多的那提到二水車站本席就要再講一下這個田中車站"},{"start":8002.968,"end":8030.067,"text":"這田中車站我覺得讓地方的民眾真的很失望就是說我們的這個工程一直延宕延宕到現在然後毫無進度所以就是說去年在馬拉松舉辦的時候我們就很多民眾就是針對那個施工的鐵架的問題就是說會影響到那個外觀因為有國際觀光客來可是到今年又過了一年了"},{"start":8030.487,"end":8048.344,"text":"我不曉得現在的狀況到底如何我們希望能夠再跟我們報告舊田中車站的裝修跟整理的工程我們現在已經在招標當中現在公告目標是希望在年底之前能夠決標跟開工"},{"start":8051.633,"end":8076.898,"text":"開工之後我們也希望就是說在這個工程的進度一定要掌握不要延宕因為之前為了一個電梯的一個工程就延宕那麼多年了然後也造成外面的那個就是行人那個坡道那個行走的空間都受到很大的影響我覺得這個對整個地方讓地方的民眾包括旅客對我們臺鐵的這個"},{"start":8079.498,"end":8080.259,"text":"臺鐵轉型為公司化之後,面臨未來營運績效問題。"},{"start":8100.353,"end":8100.553,"text":"臺鐵公司有蠻多的進帳"},{"start":8130.43,"end":8144.215,"text":"是,因為我看到的這是我看到的資料好像說整體營收有突破了一億元就是截至去年底那所以本席在這邊就有一個想法就是說事實上我們最近都在關注說臺鐵的那個車票要不要漲價這個問題"},{"start":8147.456,"end":8149.217,"text":"一般通勤的票價"},{"start":8176.511,"end":8184.068,"text":"我覺得可能就盡量不要不要有調漲的這樣子的一個方向了。部長您覺得呢?"},{"start":8185.251,"end":8208.229,"text":"報告委員我們還是希望在通勤面上面對民眾的影響要降到最低所以即便要討論票價我們也希望在票價上面對於通勤的民眾通勤需求的民眾影響降到最低這個部分我一定會確保是好那台鐵的全新的觀光列車就是這個海豐號跟山南號就是11月就要上路了嘛是不是"},{"start":8210.242,"end":8221.724,"text":"對,海豐號是年底年底?年底是11月還是12月?12月12月那山南號呢?山南號應該是在明年的第一季"},{"start":8222.182,"end":8244.574,"text":"第一季,那山南號目前要停靠的站都還沒有規劃嗎?目前因為我們這次跟那個熊獅來做合作夥伴那現在海豐號的路線應該就是走我們的海線那山南號的話,初步的規劃是到花東的山線山南號是花東,西部幹線沒有走嗎?"},{"start":8245.614,"end":8269.647,"text":"對但是要跟委員報告因為我們山南海豐比較特別因為我們這個車子他不是走固定區段的所以他過了半年一年以後都會有所調整就是我們環島路網各地區都會看到他們的身影所以如果說要到二水來我們後續規劃可以現在就把它規劃好"},{"start":8271.008,"end":8286.904,"text":"本席希望未來規劃的行駛路線要把我們彰化縣尤其是二水要放進去因為我們彰化縣其實還有很多的觀光的資源跟潛力那當然就是要大家資源一起配合謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8292.368,"end":8302.458,"text":"好,謝謝陳書業、趙偉做一下宣告,待會發言到徐富奎委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘接下來有請林俊憲委員發言感謝主席,本時邀請我們交通部陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":8322.076,"end":8331.005,"text":"部長我也好今天跟你談一下我們台南市的捷運這個目前的直轄市六都裡面只有台南市沒有捷運"},{"start":8332.745,"end":8353.534,"text":"臺南的捷運規劃從賴總統擔任臺南市長的時候就開始了那在經過這幾年黃市長的努力那目前我們還有一些需要交通部能夠盡速幫忙支持的其中在前任部長的時候我有特別跟他爭取到臺南捷運黃線黃色這條線的2500萬規劃的經費因為"},{"start":8361.737,"end":8386.016,"text":"因為在整個的捷運路網裡面我們才發現人口第二大的安南區它目前人口是台南市的行政區裡面第二多的它竟然沒有捷運所以我們需要做一條黃色的線從大概南區北區的交界點經過北區到安南區它主要在安南區然後一直到新市南科"},{"start":8387.417,"end":8412.664,"text":"讓南科的在南科工作的人他可以有更多的交通選擇那也希望可以讓南科的效應能夠擴散到其他的區域來那這個部分因為是從零開始所以他的規劃經費2500萬那當時前部長有答應那因為現在部長來了我希望前部長能夠這個部分來給台南市支持"},{"start":8413.344,"end":8426.273,"text":"報告委員這是您當時爭取的那之前的部長有答應那當然政策上是要延續的這個是沒有問題不過這個案子到現在台南市政府還沒有送過來交通部那如果送過來我們會趕快來研議協助"},{"start":8428.694,"end":8456.931,"text":"他不是沒有他只是要跟你要經費他要去做規劃他現在是還沒有他要申請的部分還沒有你錢給他以後他才做一個案子送進來可是他申請的部分還沒有申請我們等他來申請的部分會來申請那第二個臺南捷運還有一條紅線那這個紅線就是這幾天高雄也在提起的高雄市那邊也在提的就是南部兩都啦臺南跟高雄的捷運有沒有串聯"},{"start":8457.95,"end":8478.143,"text":"那怎麼個串聯法?在哪裡串聯?那這條紅線就是台南到高雄的捷運小站那現在決定的台南高雄捷運結合在什麼地方呢?在仁德的嘉南藥理大學"},{"start":8479.699,"end":8502.947,"text":"加藥這一站、嘉南苗栗大學這個地方的歌詠的捷運照告者但是他要換車啦因為高雄的捷運系統跟台南不一樣所以高雄的捷運跟台南捷運在仁德的嘉南藥理大學這裡來轉成然後我們開一條紅線從仁德一直到接到台南市的東區"},{"start":8505.848,"end":8531.397,"text":"那這條紅線目前已經送來交通部了那請交通部能夠加快速度來審議因為這裡用這條線甚至可以延伸到那個高鐵站去如果你再打成藍線的話甚至可以到南科所以這個已經送到交通部九月剛送到那這個部分我們來加速審議好 都先保證另外有一條藍線藍線的延長線"},{"start":8534.198,"end":8534.298,"text":"或稱為深藍線。"},{"start":8548.134,"end":8572.942,"text":"明年底或後年初大概就可以動工了,但是最快速度就是藍線。藍線現在還有一個深藍線的延長線,它怎麼延長呢?它就是對林地、仁德轉運站,經過林地歸林,尾站到官廟、國中,到官廟,也就是串聯藍關線。那部長你知道現在藍關線是台南未來發展很重要的一個區塊。"},{"start":8574.042,"end":8575.124,"text":"因為高鐵特區的里歸人像總統、賴總統前兩個禮拜就到"},{"start":8581.594,"end":8602.955,"text":"歸人高鐵的砂輪去主持中研院南部分院的啟用典禮現在大概國家可以很多幾乎所有的重要的單位都往歸人砂輪這個地方來所以這條捷運的延長線就很重要就是臨時歸零到關廟,未曾在關廟過程"},{"start":8606.799,"end":8627.44,"text":"深南線往南到台南高鐵站,在差不多臨北的中山路,它有一個交叉,這裏看起來變成淺南線,在仁德的中山路一定要有交叉,一條往南延伸到台南高鐵站,這裏,臨北中山路,在這裏還有隔地站,所以你等下隔地站回來,"},{"start":8629.162,"end":8643.784,"text":"結印線到仁德你可以再轉過來到仁德然後轉仙人線你甚至可以到南科啦到南科因為往南道到高鐵站那現在的可見性研究"},{"start":8644.625,"end":8670.677,"text":"已經送到交通部,也送到交通部了是現在加交通部,進速來跟我們審議好嗎?這個我們加速加柏林趕快來支持啦臺南已經起步比較晚了六都就只有臺南沒有捷運那現在整體入房的已經成型了希望交通部加快速度要給台南機器好,這個我們來加速好,那另外我也本席也邀請我們臺鐵臺鐵道局"},{"start":8674.991,"end":8676.532,"text":"台鐵財務吃緊現在票價又不給你漲但台鐵有一個生意最好收入非常穩定持續每年都大賺錢的就是賣便當"},{"start":8699.861,"end":8699.881,"text":"臺鐵賣便當"},{"start":8712.745,"end":8722.869,"text":"我感覺都很好吃都很好吃要注意那個杜局長你要注意齁現在有人反映他臺鐵的便當菜色是不是質量的問題啦還有我們賣便當的同仁齁先不可以稍微這樣這樣笑頭笑臉多啦可能生意太好齁所以賣便當賣到臉色都很難看"},{"start":8731.973,"end":8739.456,"text":"這我會故意這個服務也要改善因為這個對你來講非常重要臺鐵去年賣了快要900萬個便當這不簡單全台灣最大型的便當店就是台鐵你去年賺多少錢你知道嗎?收了7億多便當收到7億多賺一個2300萬"},{"start":8755.25,"end":8781.671,"text":"但這樣的利潤我不知道是不是合理啦你的存利率只有17%啦是你看便當賣了7億多我們有比較親民的價位親民的價位是良心價還是說你成本沒有管控啦我不知道啦但是今年獲利會更驚人啦今年1到9月啊臺鐵已經就賣了700萬個便當比2022年全年都多啦那今年我看這個營業額絕對會破7億啦"},{"start":8784.854,"end":8799.171,"text":"那賺的錢今年一到九月賺的錢已經比去年2023年全年都還要多所以我們這個生意已經變成台鐵一個特色那其實可以更加的活化來推廣了我給你參考一下日本"},{"start":8800.343,"end":8815.054,"text":"日本甚至做到每一個站都有特賣的便當東京、公道口每一個站都有搞特色出來其實臺鐵是臺灣最重要的縱貫交通線之一你曾經跟各縣市合作過你知道嗎"},{"start":8816.605,"end":8833.09,"text":"那部長你知道嗎?我們國館期齁東北都有特色的農漁產品嘛那辦一個各縣市的便當節齁那臺鐵辦了以後就好像沒什麼就那幾天而已啦其實你可以對,他們是以活動的方式啦這樣比較可惜"},{"start":8833.63,"end":8836.852,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":8856.283,"end":8857.764,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵路股份有限公司董事長進"},{"start":8880.748,"end":8906.045,"text":"那今年我不知道怎麼樣臺南市就沒有參加了今年又一個鐵路便當節了我是覺得臺鐵應該要只有各地方政府那地方政府來來來臺鐵也幫你促銷嘛對不對因為臺鐵便當節吸引很大的注意也可以結合臺南400年一起來辦一個活動之後看可不可以繼續延續下去甚至可以延伸到各縣市區好不好希望臺鐵已經有這樣一個基礎能夠更認真好好的來賣便當好不好"},{"start":8916.011,"end":8928.197,"text":"臺鐵時代其實是有一些公益性質啦你看你的票其實你跟其他國家比起來臺灣的大眾運輸票價都非常非常的良心價啦那你只好自己去找裁員啦"},{"start":8931.1,"end":8953.999,"text":"這是我一個建議啦好感謝部長剛剛那個捷運黃線的這個可研究經費我們已經合訂了已經合訂了80萬對啦補充報告剛剛訊息沒有完部長你有聽到嗎我特別感謝這有分兩年合訂嗎有分兩年補助這2500萬已經有著落了當然一部分是市政府配合款嘛好謝謝部長好謝謝市長好謝謝局長"},{"start":8958.496,"end":8974.966,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請徐副國務委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長還有我們鐵道局楊局長楊局長"},{"start":8986.603,"end":9002.136,"text":"部長、局長早安今天本期用很沉重的心情站在這個地方要來質詢我想最近這個高鐵的這個難免的議題這個不管是在我們立法院也好還有高雄市議會也好費費揚揚"},{"start":9004.258,"end":9029.691,"text":"那我要請教部長的是從我印象最深刻現在我們總統府的潘茂安秘書長在2005年擔任立委的任內就開始在追蹤所謂的高鐵南延屏東這個案子一直到2019年我們蘇貞昌前院長正式核定了這個高鐵南延屏東而且路線也都確定了為什麼到目前我們還在討論這個路線的問題難道有什麼狀況嗎"},{"start":9034.384,"end":9061.276,"text":"請部長回答其實過去最早我聽到的是有6個方案後來變成4個方案那最近我們收斂成是兩個方案在討論就是高雄案跟左營案那漸漸收斂我們還是希望照李前部長他當時的宣示我們在年底之前交通部要來公告說要走哪一個方案要來決定這件事情所以年底的這個計畫不會延宕我們年底一定會來確定路線"},{"start":9062.617,"end":9084.276,"text":"部長本席還是要提醒這個剛剛我聽到林俊憲委員說臺南沒有捷運這聽起來我很心酸的啦我們屏東沒有捷運也沒有高鐵有機場也不能用我們陸海空的交通真的完全完全都在西部縣是完全非常的一個落後啦部長你覺得這樣正常不然我們付資金來改善一下"},{"start":9086.358,"end":9102.975,"text":"我們現在作為執政黨當然要負責任來解決屏東的行的問題過去幾十年甚至是幾百年屏東的交通的建設確實是落後到其他縣市非常非常多尤其跟西部的其他都市比起來那這個部分我們加緊腳步加緊腳步"},{"start":9104.95,"end":9128.238,"text":"部長我想本席對你很有信心尤其你上任之後我們也聊了很多關於屏東這個交通建設的事情那我也相信部長一直都有包含我們的鐵路的運輸軌道建設也好包含我們屏南快速道路包含高捷的一個進度我想部長跟我們局長大家都有在掌握但是我們期待的是"},{"start":9129.238,"end":9144.159,"text":"不管哪一條方案,我們都支持趕快定案、趕快動工,這才是屏東人的期待。沒錯。不要給我們汙聞民話說,今天高雄被拆房子是因為屏東造成的,這個對屏東人來講扛不起這個責任啊,部長。是。"},{"start":9146.415,"end":9159.11,"text":"這個部分我們會努力啦對社會的說明也好對地方的說明也好剛才在講的兩個方案不管是走左營案或者是走高雄案其實對地方還是會有一些影響那這個影響我們會來說明"},{"start":9161.377,"end":9168.367,"text":"部長我記得上個會期我們王國材前部長我就問過這個問題那時候我們的啟程是2019年我們那時候開始啟動2029年要完工動開始我們的運行結果現在已經2024年了"},{"start":9178.021,"end":9197.642,"text":"到現在連路線在哪裡就還沒確定這是要怎麼對屏東人做交代是啦 不能讓屏東的鄉親覺得這個案子一直在拖或者是說一直說沒有做啦所以交通部既定的立場就是我們希望在年底一定要定案對於路線的部分要做定案這樣才能夠進入下一步"},{"start":9198.263,"end":9198.463,"text":"的進度。"},{"start":9223.449,"end":9227.474,"text":"二、若高雄市受影響部分也希望我們部裡面積極來溝通。我們有責任要來溝通。"},{"start":9243.453,"end":9270.209,"text":"另外我想第二個問題就是我們屏東這邊我們的高捷紅線有延伸到我們所謂的臨邊道東港這個路線那因為之前我們有知道我們在大概在高雄端有這個一線到底的一個問題那高雄市好像比較堅持這個方案那另外就是針對這個林園市化貢業區這部分的這個到底要是要高價化還是要走前段這部分不曉得目前有沒有比較最新的一個進度還是"},{"start":9272.216,"end":9289.565,"text":"我們現在齁這個系統還是希望他走高價輕軌的方式如果用高價輕軌的方式可能是比較適合屏東這一端那目前可行性研究正在進行當中那也送到鐵道局了鐵道局在審查那我是不是請鐵道局長來回應一下好跟完報告齁"},{"start":9291.569,"end":9305.568,"text":"這個案子屏東縣政府最近有送回來但是因為這個就是林園這一段在高雄跟在屏東這個地方高架的這個部分石化廠這個議題我們要持續來跟屏東縣政府跟高雄市政府來溝通協調"},{"start":9308.13,"end":9328.935,"text":"能不能再加快施展這個我們一定加速來辦理尤其我想這個這也要跟部長請命因為其實對我們來講我們當然希望一車道理但是這牽扯到這個經費分攤的部分變動觀念再講比較困難如果我們交通部可以來多幫忙一點有沒有辦法克服這個一車道理這個問題"},{"start":9331.188,"end":9350.099,"text":"一車到底要溝通,因為屏東縣政府有他的想法,然後高雄市政府有他的想法,這兩邊的想法我們在中間當然會協助來溝通。對,部長所以本市都一直很擔心,尤其剛剛高鐵那個案子,回過頭來我再講那個案子,你如果今天進高雄市,好,現在我紅磅也在拖啦,"},{"start":9352.574,"end":9370.429,"text":"在進行評估之後會不會時間越拖越長我們都擔心這個問題因為有新的方案出來就會有新的討論就會有很多的想法地方有很多的意見時間真的不能等所以我們會加速溝通而且要落實溝通讓地方上大家能夠理解"},{"start":9371.79,"end":9385.427,"text":"這個方案或那個方案哪一個方案比較好那對民眾的影響我們也會盡量降到最低大家擔心的部分我們會盡量去跟民眾說明我們如何用工程的方式或者是用交違的方式來降低民眾的影響跟擔心"},{"start":9386.874,"end":9408.114,"text":"部長那第三個就針對我們下禮拜一我們有排交通委員會的考察會看一下恆春機場那恆春機場其實是一個很重要的一個尤其對我們這個整個墾丁恆春的觀光是一個很重要那之前我知道縣政府一直有在啟動所謂一個包機也好一些計畫但是有牽扯到跟軍方的一些"},{"start":9408.735,"end":9423.842,"text":"一切的問題還有一個所謂的一個洛杉磅的一個天后因素那這部分有沒有機會能夠重新再做這樣一個評估,要不然這放在那邊、趴在那邊也不可以討論怎麼樣做一個活化的一個規劃是這個機場一直都在那個地方那我們部內也在討論說機場整體的活化的問題"},{"start":9426.883,"end":9450.53,"text":"那天候的問題其實我們用技術上可不可以再精進一點那雖然幅度不一定有辦法做到很確很落實或者很大但是我們在技術上或者是科技的層面上怎麼讓克服這個天候的問題這一方面二方面其實包機的補助的部分我們也在思考看有沒有辦法再做更多的這個優惠方案來促銷來讓包機能夠進來墾丁這邊"},{"start":9452.831,"end":9470.945,"text":"對,尤其你看我們對整個我們東南亞,如果說我們可以直接包機直接到鳳春機場,我們可以在地這樣子做一個整個南台灣的一個旅遊,我相信很有賣點啦。是。這也節省很多的交通時間,因為現在很多,我們很多的這個亞洲的國家的旅客都必須飛到桃園,還坐高鐵就來,浪費很多時間的啦。"},{"start":9473.607,"end":9496.511,"text":"這部分我們再來努力啦,那拜師傅請部長我們也來講一下怎麼樣來協助我們這個肯定的觀光業能夠繼續的蓬勃發展啊好不好好好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝許委員好因為我們蔡理事長委員已經等了蠻久的我們先請蔡理事長委員發言,發言完再休息10分鐘"},{"start":9502.895,"end":9512.841,"text":"好特別謝謝主席請交通部陳部長跟交通部陳部長杜董事長臺鐵公司杜董事長好謝謝兩位早我看了一下臺鐵公司"},{"start":9529.812,"end":9546.198,"text":"這個營業項目的收支概況也就是我們簡單講臺鐵公司的財務狀況這個看起來今年那個杜董事長應該你們的預估是虧淨利是虧74億是嗎是明年還是虧明年還是那杜董事長這個財務狀況裡面你認為虧損主要來自於哪裡"},{"start":9556.16,"end":9575.33,"text":"虧損如果是以帳面價值來看就是會計帳來看的話主要的原因是我們的折舊很龐大那折舊的話邏輯上如果折舊攤體是一定要的那如果以這樣來看最主要這個折舊還是來自於這個運輸的這個本業"},{"start":9581.47,"end":9590.355,"text":"其他的臺鐵包括土地資產的開發包括像便當這種商品的其他部門的營業狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":9592.365,"end":9618.14,"text":"其他部門的營業狀況就比較沒有比較沒有那個折舊的影響不是他是虧損還是他是虧損還是獲利獲利土地開發也獲利土地開發也獲利所有商品也獲利商品也獲利那只有本業虧損其他的都賺錢大體上是這樣那還有什麼部門你覺得有機會可以賺錢"},{"start":9620.374,"end":9647.411,"text":"我們主要有機會可以賺錢的其實都有啦但是主要可以不受折舊影響來賺錢的話如果可以切開看的話是資產開發應該沒有人不算折舊啦那這個公司大概太好經營了折舊一定要算嘛那本席只是覺得說是不是因為我臺鐵公司這個其實我主要問部長是說"},{"start":9648.872,"end":9651.735,"text":"明年會虧74億,明年預估虧87億每一個部門的KPI,每一個部門的營業目標"},{"start":9665.319,"end":9691.156,"text":"你有請同仁們提出嗎?有那這些虧87億都是你覺得合理每一個部門提出之後你覺得合理所以你估算出這個數字嘛對不對?那本席是不是要求你把每一個部門怎麼算?可不可以給本席?可以因為對臺鐵公司來講立法院就像公司的監察人"},{"start":9692.54,"end":9708.439,"text":"我們很想知道每一個部門他怎麼去看待明年的營業就你現在是公司啦公司邏輯上不要再吃大鍋飯嘛所以每一個部門都應該有目標嘛那有一個目標我們以目標的方式來監督"},{"start":9709.801,"end":9731.651,"text":"我覺得這個才對臺鐵公司合理不然立法院來大家只挑一個地點挑一個點就開始罵開始批評那明年又換新的我認為這沒有辦法系統性的監督臺鐵所以我覺得應該你有一個KPI讓我來看我明年我就按照你的KPI我來追蹤來要求這些目標可不可以達成我認為這樣對臺鐵的監理才是第二個有一些東西雖然賺錢董事長你會不會覺得他賺太少"},{"start":9739.755,"end":9750.677,"text":"譬如說我舉個例子我剛剛林俊鑫好像也有提到便當我們去年賺去年營業額是7億多對不對去年賺了多少錢"},{"start":9752.501,"end":9779.086,"text":"一億多七億賺一億啦好那十幾八十幾八對對對你比較起其他的餐飲就跟我們類型類似的來講你的營業利率其實有比較有比贏過人家嗎沒有沒有還是沒有嗎所以這個就是我覺得說如果我們覺得跟我們的同業比我們的營業利率相對低那我們就應該有精進的空間表示說"},{"start":9780.526,"end":9802.154,"text":"我們的營業額7億不錯但是我們一定是管銷費用或者什麼費用比人家高所以我們才會我們的營業利益才會比別人低嘛就這個邏輯你懂嗎所以應該我們用這樣的方式讓台鐵公司一個部門一個部門來檢討像土地的開發我覺得台鐵土地很多嘛我們應該想辦法來檢討嘛"},{"start":9804.375,"end":9822.622,"text":"那我們不只土地他不是在做不是純粹我們在講土地的這個炒作啦開發不是這個而是土地怎麼樣運營跟管理那包括你的廠站也是一樣我剛剛也聽到那個數月委員在提他的惡靈車站很重要對不對他也是古蹟啊對不對"},{"start":9823.971,"end":9852.403,"text":"本席的日南火車站我也過去一直跟你們爭取從觀光局也要錢來修護這個古蹟日南車站的周邊然後我講了很多年臺鐵公司終於同意我爭取了大概接近我看五、六千萬有啦要把古蹟的本體開始要進行維護對不對那董事長這些古蹟本體這麼多的車站不久之後只要它沒被拆掉的它通通是古蹟"},{"start":9853.376,"end":9881.673,"text":"那臺鐵公司花錢去修理比如說我一個日南車站周邊不要算因為周邊是從我從觀光局要來的嘛觀光署要來的但是本體你就要花五六千萬去整修了那整修完之後啊你等於說對你來講你是投入資產的的運委或者投入資產的這個這個這個活化嘛那怎麼獲利就投入了之後這些車站投入獲利除了對古蹟的保存"},{"start":9882.762,"end":9905.616,"text":"你是公司欸你不是交通部欸交通部連交通部連國貨會都要跟你算那個那個回收啊回報率啊那你的你作為公司你對於這些投入你更應該這樣計算嘛所以臺鐵公司應該同時在修復古蹟的同時你應該去試想我怎麼運為我的古蹟可以讓我臺鐵公司有現金流進啦要有再利用的計畫對"},{"start":9906.977,"end":9922.764,"text":"所以我一直很擔心我到現在為止我都沒有看嘛每一個人都在問他的古蹟什麼時候修復我也是一樣啊對不對日南車站留標4次了嘛今天要開第5次標嘛對已經開了留標了嗎沒有有一家有標了那我們下個月就會完成評選好OK"},{"start":9924.858,"end":9938.328,"text":"不要再流標了啦同仁都很辛苦每次同仁回復辦公室都說同仁很努力了我從來沒有否定你們的努力啦但是喔努力沒有效果就說有心無力啦這是悲劇嘛"},{"start":9939.639,"end":9966.99,"text":"就有心有力要把問題解決啦所以不是講通人很努力我也知道通人很努力但沒方法事情沒辦法完成只有心有心我想要把它做得好但沒有能力把它完成嘛所以有心無力有力無心都不行都解決不了問題啦所以回過頭來我希望看到的是臺鐵怎麼去活化就是你的股機去整修花那麼多錢每一個站你都要去修每一個站都要去維護"},{"start":9968.988,"end":9990.311,"text":"他對臺鐵公司未來的營收的幫忙是什麼我隨便舉個例子比如說你們現在開始改那個叫海豐號啊把舉光號改成去把它裝扮了海豐號叫什麼還有個叫什麼藍啊山藍號對不對對啊那這些要跑哪裡我是不知道啦但是我馬上想到的是我每次要去看這些古蹟"},{"start":9991.67,"end":10016.156,"text":"其實沒有一台很棒的車子比如說在假日開禮拜六禮拜天你們也去打造一台這個臺鐵的什麼號專門營跑古蹟的就你在禮拜六禮拜天就載我跑海線的古蹟嘛因為你禮拜六禮拜天你的主力的運輸一定是相對遊客少嘛因為上班上學的沒有嘛所以這時候你就有你有古蹟你就可以去做嘛"},{"start":10017.025,"end":10044.61,"text":"那你的古蹟的這個車子你想一個很響亮的名字取一個號把舉光號去改裝嘛你用舉光號去開大家覺得旅遊的樂趣沒有啦你把它重新改裝過後大家都覺得很好啦再來你的古蹟立法院不會審你的票價啊你的古蹟號要收多少錢我立法院不會說不行我在乎的是每天民眾要上下班上下雪那個票價你要漲價我就先問你績效改了沒"},{"start":10045.441,"end":10066.278,"text":"可是你否遊客否旅遊的你定很高那個就是市場機制嘛那個就是市場機制所以這個就是我一直在提的方法我沒有看到你的這些站我很贊成你去維護這些站我很支持我不是反對喔可是這個站跟這個公司的關係是什麼這個你要去想嘛"},{"start":10067.278,"end":10068.279,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長"},{"start":10082.458,"end":10107.604,"text":"真的能從包括你自己從民間挖到挖角把臺鐵公司起始回生你要有突破點就你上任董事長之後你的突破點是什麼讓大家耳目一新覺得這個杜董事長從過去公務人員現在變公司的董事長哇那臺鐵真的是不一樣了你這時候要談你不管要調幾趴大家會問說我這人才這樣會不會調太久"},{"start":10111.352,"end":10124.312,"text":"同仁讓大家有目標去拼拼完了我們有成績我們就加薪讓大家有動力立法院也挺得大家都很開心大家覺得不一樣了臺鐵公司是一個全新的公司"},{"start":10125.287,"end":10154.848,"text":"所以老生產產都是在談這些東西啦但是董事長就是你一定要很清楚那個方向每一個部門的方向是什麼他有可能可以再發揮創意是什麼過去臺鐵公司的任務不在此沒有公司之前不在此他就是讓火車可以跑不要上班不要遲到上學不要遲到正常運轉臺鐵公司就做好啦他還有什麼事情便當賣不賣不重要啦對不對沒有規定臺鐵一定要賣便當啊"},{"start":10155.913,"end":10182.967,"text":"那便當可以光便當你現在不是思考便當你要思考我怎麼樣可以讓我的飲食部門營收飆一倍從7億變14億對不對剛剛有人有緣有題啊各種各式各樣的啊你臺鐵現在便當叫全國統一版你也可以第二個版本叫地方版每一個地方又有屬於地方的特色這個就是你的創意讓你的營收可以翻倍的基礎嘛"},{"start":10184.127,"end":10211.984,"text":"所以我建議這個是你參考一下啦因為畢竟你是董事長不是我是董事長所以這些問題一個公司就是公司啦我把你改字叫公司我很支持讓臺鐵變成公司公司就是公司而公司的方向是什麼公司角色是什麼跟過去公務同仁不大一樣所以我的意思是要這樣來思考臺鐵才會有未來好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10215.1,"end":10215.12,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":10247.078,"end":10251.242,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":10255.708,"end":10269.892,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":10276.897,"end":10291.946,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司"},{"start":10305.375,"end":10320.054,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司"},{"start":10323.497,"end":10328.519,"text":"有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長"},{"start":10347.482,"end":10354.688,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵道局局長"},{"start":10364.575,"end":10373.223,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":10381.65,"end":10389.013,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長進行專題報告。三、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":10404.324,"end":10430.699,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":10432.601,"end":10439.986,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":10443.336,"end":10454.785,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":10468.715,"end":10475.76,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長。"},{"start":10502.06,"end":10504.162,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告。三、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告。四、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告。五、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告。六、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告。"},{"start":10516.894,"end":10532.963,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":10537.522,"end":10550.535,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":10559.224,"end":10587.221,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":10603.228,"end":10614.853,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份"},{"start":10619.707,"end":10637.342,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":10649.765,"end":10671.72,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":10675.016,"end":10691.132,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":10693.416,"end":10705.753,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":10709.525,"end":10731.817,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就、「我國軌道建設執行概況、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能。」進二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就、「我國軌道建設執行概況、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能。」進三、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就、「我國軌道建設執行概況、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能。」進四、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就、「我國軌道建設執行概況、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能。」進五、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就、「我國軌道建設執行概況、強化文"},{"start":10737.414,"end":10753.046,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司"},{"start":10763.894,"end":10765.677,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵道局局長"},{"start":10785.746,"end":10804.13,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵道局局長"},{"start":10819.481,"end":10834.293,"text":"先爭取一下我們那個交通部待會中午要不要休息啊?那那個數位部勒?你建議怎麼樣?有沒有低血糖?沒有齁?那個國防部勒?"},{"start":10835.56,"end":10837.582,"text":"接下來有請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":10863.902,"end":10864.764,"text":"交通部陳部長、杜董事長"},{"start":10875.66,"end":10898.388,"text":"部長好、董事長好那其實以我們交通部管的幾個國內的運輸業那高鐵、臺鐵還有客運這應該三大宗那這幾年其實它的運量高鐵其實是穩定的在爬升嘛對不對那我們臺鐵雖然我們的報告比去年還好但是其實"},{"start":10899.668,"end":10902.151,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司"},{"start":10921.823,"end":10923.584,"text":"部長這三個這麼大的一個國內客運的一個運輸體我醞釀這樣子的變化那對你有怎樣的啟示?"},{"start":10930.82,"end":10959.344,"text":"其實我覺得民眾在使用這個運輸的運具的過程當中大家的習慣是在改變似乎大家對於軌道的這個運輸是比較有信心或者是比較喜歡搭乘尤其這幾年我們的高鐵的這個服務的運量一直在提升當中那我自己搭高鐵長期在搭我看到的是幾乎班班客滿那非常多的人那確實我們也感受到說因為疫情的過程當中有一些民眾他的交通運具變成自己買車的也不少"},{"start":10959.924,"end":10971.716,"text":"那變成他的公路運輸的過程當中他就有可能會放棄公共的客運那變成自己的公路運輸我想提一下跟部長討論就是說其實高鐵是所有的"},{"start":10972.915,"end":11000.757,"text":"交通這三樣裡面費用最高的那客運其實也是動漲了非常久的時間沒什麼調漲就其實相對來他是非常低的結果他的運量反而是萎縮的那單價高的高鐵他反而運量是增加的那就代表說價格只是影響到國人使用鐵道軌道運輸大眾運輸的一個其中的一項的考慮的因子而已"},{"start":11001.478,"end":11004.392,"text":"所以搭乘的速度、品質才是"},{"start":11005.638,"end":11032.769,"text":"國人要不要選擇搭乘大眾運輸的一個非常大的主要原因就像如果說國道科運你一直動漲假設當然你最近有說可能會調整你一直動漲你不讓他提升你讓他嫖嫁回到那邊他的服務品質沒辦法提升的時候跟我們可能要推廣大眾運輸的一個方向反而是背道而馳的我們雖然說我們可能是想要保障一些弱勢等等的但是其實有時候弱勢這個東西"},{"start":11034.31,"end":11061.044,"text":"並不單單是我們交通部的責任他應該是被納到社會福利的一環應該是衛福部或是地方政府的社會局、社會處他才是主要去做一些補助的一個單位我們應該除了一些比較弱勢的民眾要考慮之外我們應該要去考慮所有有可能是我們大眾運輸工具使用者的客群來怎麼樣滿足他提升他們搭乘的誘因所以說"},{"start":11061.824,"end":11074.218,"text":"我要討論的其實是臺鐵的一個票價說真的我個人其實在這邊也一再的重申我的立場我真的不反對我們臺鐵去提升票價我在乎的是臺鐵能夠在調升票價的同時能夠提升給我們旅客"},{"start":11079.584,"end":11100.796,"text":"提升不管是我們準點率、班次的服務效能或是搭乘的舒適度我覺得這才是絕大多數搭乘大眾運輸的民眾最關心的一個課題今天不曉得針對班次的載客量因為我上次有在這邊說過我有一次要來開會的時候"},{"start":11102.017,"end":11102.478,"text":"臺鐵有沒有再提升運能的計畫?"},{"start":11117.944,"end":11137.801,"text":"剛剛委員報告有齁因為我們現在還在持續投入新車我們的新車都是大編組的所以運能是還可以再提升所以目前有一些可能還是四列的編組然後未來可能會投入八輛的編組那最近一起可能會再有這樣子的編組改這個時機點會大概在哪邊"},{"start":11141.565,"end":11157.807,"text":"改正的時機點應該是在明年年中的時候明年年中因為我們現在E500進來時是初期而已是我們大概正常上限運轉大概到明年年中跟下半年就會比較正常可以正常的輪替"},{"start":11158.308,"end":11184.028,"text":"好那如果說以明年底跟今年底來做比較的話那我們這個就講都會區啊都會區可能北北基桃這樣子的一個乘風見風時刻的我們的載客的量那可以提升多少大概10%左右可以再提升10%的運了好那就拜託我們臺鐵準準時啦因為我們常常在交車的時候常常不一定是你們的問題啦常常都晚常常都晚"},{"start":11184.528,"end":11199.825,"text":"那另外就是另外跟兩位討論一下就是說我們鼓勵國人國旅但是討論國旅的時候我們也鼓勵我們的國人要多多使用我們的大眾運輸包括我們的鐵道嘛"},{"start":11201.394,"end":11228.499,"text":"我們的鐵道在過去可能大家只是把它當作一個運輸工具的一個部分而已那其實在很多知名的景點、國外一些好的一個地方其實在旅途的過程中其實它已經就是已經在進入了它的一個旅程當中了比如說我們要去迪士尼玩迪士尼專門列車你一進去就有這個沉浸感了嘛對不對或者是說我們去日本的京都他們的嵐山"},{"start":11229.719,"end":11230.84,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":11247.631,"end":11262.006,"text":"觀光列車的一個計畫那原定好像要在明年上路嗎?不曉得相關的啟程是怎麼樣?因為我剛剛委員提到的山南跟海豐號好像都延了兩三年才上路啦那關於我們支線的觀光列車的一個進度"},{"start":11262.782,"end":11290.794,"text":"是跟委員報告這個不太一樣山南海豐是我們的觀光型的列車是那那個剛剛委員提到的支線它也是一種觀光型的列車但是它還兼附我們一般支線的輸運是所以不太一樣是那上線的騎乘我們現在的這個進程因為那是臺鐵臺車臺車在製造我們正在跟它緊密配合我們現在預估是要到115年"},{"start":11292.635,"end":11316.178,"text":"因為最近的新聞看好像我瀏覽一下新聞啦最近的新聞原本是說明年中啦第一輛可能可以交那現在又延到2025要延到20262026的應該是第一季或第二季第一季第二季那我們首輛投入的一個列車你會選擇在哪一條支線會先來現在還沒有定還沒有定喔"},{"start":11316.878,"end":11344.864,"text":"因為其實我們所有的支線應該是以平溪線的一個運量來最高應該是最高的啦那在疫情前搭乘人士應該都是破百萬的都是其他支線好幾倍那我在這邊也拜託是不是我們當然時間就拜託台車台車那邊儘快那我也希望說第一輛列車可以讓我們來投入到我們的平溪線營運一部分是它的一個效益會最大"},{"start":11345.424,"end":11350.565,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營鐵路股份有限公司"},{"start":11370.97,"end":11388.223,"text":"於年提升的部分。那另外一個就是這個觀光支線列車的一個相關的一個進程跟進度以及比較細部的規劃好不好謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝委員好謝謝亮委員好接下來有請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":11398.808,"end":11404.059,"text":"好謝謝主席主席請杜董事長好臺鐵杜董事長"},{"start":11410.675,"end":11424.159,"text":"董事長早我們先來看根據臺鐵公司的資料提供臺鐵公司所營運的軌道路網共計1072.3公里為全國第一那載客量也從110年的1億5493萬人次成長到110年的1億7025萬人次"},{"start":11430.239,"end":11453.644,"text":"那112年在客量高達兩億一千九百三十一萬人次那一到七月也累積了一億三千六百二十九點五萬人次那代表臺鐵是我國國人重要的公共運輸工具臺鐵行程安全至關重要在此本席要就叫董事長我們先來看臺鐵列車故事故障不斷那臺鐵的積極周圍是是請播放"},{"start":11470.868,"end":11494.537,"text":"我們可以看到旅客從一輛列車從區間車下來之後到另外一輛這是發生在今年9月5號臺鐵3078車次的影片原3078車次發生故障民眾必須從另外一班列車轉到另外轉到對向越台的另外一班那還有民眾因為趕轉列車而跌倒那我們再來看另外一部影片"},{"start":11507.324,"end":11522.479,"text":"今年9月11日臺鐵161號車次發生的問題由於自強號都是長途的旅客所以影片中我們可以看到旅客帶著大包小包民眾在轉車的時候造成列車污點進而影響班次"},{"start":11524.601,"end":11538.835,"text":"臺鐵提供的資料臺鐵近3年的列車故障班次都在200件以上造成霧點的時間都超過1萬分鐘以上影響的旅客日平均是高達379人次列車主要故障原因"},{"start":11539.796,"end":11563.973,"text":"可以看到是因為列車煞車系統作動異常還有電車線、供電設備保護切斷等等那其中區間車它的故障次數最多那再來是自強號、則以PP自強號的故障次數最高那最新型的EMU3000故障車數也有逐年增加的趨勢那今年1到8月光是區間車故障次數就達74次了過往3年都超過100次區間車是我國"},{"start":11566.855,"end":11586.015,"text":"的上班族主要通行工具之一,請問董事長如何降低區間車的故障次數?有關於區間車的部分,我們現在900型的新車都投進來都還很正常那我們有發生故障的這種車種,大部分都是比較舊式的500型跟600型"},{"start":11588.718,"end":11608.074,"text":"我這邊就要請教問題是要如何降低是是是就是500型我們已經有做過動力改造所以500型的部分動力改造過後剩下我們下一階段的工作就是包括它的車門還有一些其他的次系統的一個再改進"},{"start":11609.255,"end":11625.917,"text":"那這個部分我們現在正在進行那另外還有就是那個600型600型跟500型是屬於同一類車型的那本席這邊要提到自強號的故障次數有52次、舉光號35次這是從今年1月到8月的統計嘛"},{"start":11626.738,"end":11645.556,"text":"那列車故障的原因多為機械故障這是臺鐵公司所提供的那造成平凡故障的原因是什麼是因為人員操作不當還是維修的流程出了問題這跟委員報告這兩個包括我們的推拉式PP還有我們的舉光號這個它大部分的故障都是因為它的車頭機車頭那機車頭這兩類車真的是比較老舊一點"},{"start":11652.11,"end":11675.343,"text":"那EMU37是最新的車型近年那最近也有逐漸升高的趨勢那臺鐵有針對這個問題做出改善嗎?有做通盤的檢討嗎?有,三間型它故障次數並不是很多那主要是因為新車型我們對它它車型裡面的Fail to Safe的這個機制我們要求也比較嚴格"},{"start":11676.283,"end":11681.374,"text":"那這個日立廠商有做這個深入的研究就他已經有發現過的這個問題都有在做改進"},{"start":11686.102,"end":11702.269,"text":"希望董事長這邊可以改善希望臺鐵繼續努力這邊也要請部長這邊來督促臺鐵公司因為這攸關我們國人上班族每天通勤的因為部長也有提到希望把影響降到最低希望這邊部長來督促臺鐵董事長我們這邊再來看到債務人員遭受攻擊的問題"},{"start":11708.231,"end":11729.924,"text":"今年4月3號在臺鐵在臺鐵高雄站就有發生那8月7號在臺鐵大林站也有發生9月20號在臺鐵羅東站也有發生那當然還有其他很多的例子啊本期這邊就不一一舉例了那為什麼臺鐵站務人員遭受攻擊或是遭受民眾辱罵的事件不斷發生呢臺鐵這邊有沒有來做改進"},{"start":11730.484,"end":11753.57,"text":"是是是,這個我們有去看紀錄,類似的情形我們在112年以前每一年發生的件數大概是兩件左右那今年的確比較多一點,那我們去分析大部分都是乘務人員跟我們這個車站的戰務人員我們這邊可以提供戰務人員還有,戰務人員有什麼樣的協助?"},{"start":11754.64,"end":11776.46,"text":"有有,政務人員如果碰到這種情形第一時間當然我們會去車站或者是警方會去支援那第二個就是在事後如果我們的這個人員他有需要他認為他要提出這個告訴或者是對他自己的一個法律的一個保障我們這個會積極去協助他"},{"start":11778.882,"end":11797.729,"text":"董事長本身認為這些都沒有辦法有效保護第一線的戰務人員那臺鐵公司有沒有考慮過就是研議讓我們的列車人員、戰務人員都配掛迷路棋?這個我們有在研議的我們有在研議因為我們現階段是在看就是因為我們是公司嘛我們在法規面是不是適當"},{"start":11798.829,"end":11823.269,"text":"然後這個另外就是我們也要徵詢一下我們同仁的他們的意見是不是適合用公發的方式那初期我們會在車上已經演繹多久了請教董事長有一個多月了一個多月那再請董事長提供書面資料給本席的辦公室好的好的那我們接下來看到臺鐵的投票問題董事長您知道他是誰嗎"},{"start":11827.602,"end":11831.746,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份"},{"start":11853.166,"end":11881.808,"text":"在臺鐵投票的紀錄那投票對臺鐵公司一定是重大的損失是董事長對於投票的問題您要怎麼來解決是其實跟委員報告我們現在有發生投票或者是他有越級乘車這種情形跟以往比較不一樣因為現在我們在密集的地區我們立體化的車站變得比較多所以他要經過這個我們鐵路的古道來投票現在是不太會發生的"},{"start":11882.188,"end":11905.667,"text":"所以現在我們 董事長 逃票的這個行為不但造成臺鐵損失也影響社會風氣啊 是那臺鐵有沒有演繹有啊 我們對於逃票的這個行為我們還是會加強來做預防包括車站跟車廂 那有沒有要來修改相關的法規法規我們是只能遵循鐵路法是 只能遵循鐵路法"},{"start":11906.741,"end":11919.928,"text":"董事長本席的建議是應該跟鐵道局還有法務部警政署做跨部會的演繹畢竟這個對於社會風氣都有很嚴重的影響好 這個我們來考慮OK 好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱委員接下來有請陳雪生委員發言"},{"start":11946.618,"end":11973.174,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉是不是請交通部陳部長陳部長還有民航局局長民航局何局長還有那個中游羅副總好 羅副總部長早安委員早這個年輕有為希望您魄力的展現是多給我們交通多做點事情"},{"start":11974.69,"end":11988.521,"text":"那我今天在執行重點大概是馬祖到高雄航線大概是配合馬祖的南竿機場94年1月14日啟用那麼那時候馬祖高雄航線已經起飛了"},{"start":11991.342,"end":12011.3,"text":"後來到11月只飛了11個月就停飛了,為什麼?因為人員不足、流量等等。載客率不如預期。對,到現在103年,20年停飛了。所以相較台北飛高雄屏東航線,"},{"start":12013.426,"end":12038.906,"text":"飛花蓮航線都是個位數,他們還是用固定航班在飛當然現在高雄可能停止了那麼我們在11月14號在高雄現場議長我還有我們高雄市陳其邁市長還有四位交通委員會的委員都歷齡了參加這個記者會那麼這個記者會也非常成功"},{"start":12041.189,"end":12067.771,"text":"昨天10月22號我們又開了跟許智傑委員我們共同主持了一個協調會為什麼?因為11月6號交通委員會到馬祖考察就在當天我選定那個時間就是高雄跟馬祖航線要復航那麼這是用包機的方式只有10趟只有10趟那這10趟包機"},{"start":12070.539,"end":12089.379,"text":"用官方的名義,官方署給了一百萬,那連江縣政府動資第二預備金花了五百萬也就是說這六百萬飛了十趟以後,然後怎麼辦?所以現在我們交通委員會很多委員很關心這個問題,為什麼?你一旦復航,然後飛了十趟以後又把它停止"},{"start":12091.086,"end":12112.28,"text":"這個我們鄉親會罵死了我們鄉親會罵死了我想這一條路不只是交通的一個連結也是行的便利你中央政府本來就有責任你在各縣市做高鐵成本多高啊所以這麼花一點點小錢而且我們的石斑已經全部滿載了所謂滿載是50個人"},{"start":12116.127,"end":12140.164,"text":"一般飛機因為它省油的問題,這裡面扯到中油了所以我講不只是中央政府的責任,更多是一條情感的橋樑我們對許多在南部在外地的鄉親來說,每一次回家的路都是充滿了思念跟期待的一個旅程這條航線就讓"},{"start":12142.049,"end":12171.258,"text":"這一份思念不再被這個距離所阻礙特別對於那些在南部在馬祖打拼的這些朋友也有軍人也有一些我們工程上協助我們的人因為回家的路不要再漫長了家庭的團聚也不再遙遠所以讓回家的路能夠變得更近、更便捷、更順暢那昨天協商會裡面有個問題這十班飛完以後"},{"start":12172.506,"end":12198.468,"text":"民航局是不是在這十班的時間、一個月的時間做前置作業?後面是不是繼續要飛?昨天開完會以後,我跟我們縣長討論我們縣政府的錢是東支第二預備金各位曉得,馬祖的財政狀況急劇是第五,非常艱困所以在這樣的情形之下,他可能沒有錢"},{"start":12199.449,"end":12217.791,"text":"所以我拜託昨天民航局跟中央也不敢給我一個確切的承諾所以今天部長來我拜託部長是不是督促民航局我希望能夠負起中央對各縣市政府尤其偏遠離島"},{"start":12219.232,"end":12246.454,"text":"一個交通的責任、一個行人的權利、便利,能夠負起一個完整的責任來。目前的問題大概是滿載可以坐70個人,現在扯到加油了。馬祖沒有加油站,有加油站,但是沒有加飛機的油。你要在那邊成立加油站,要有油罐車,還有一個油料的特別責任保險。"},{"start":12248.342,"end":12265.348,"text":"特別責任保險那我中游等一下我再來問他我是請教部長就是說這10班飛完以後能不能把它變為轉換為固定航班報告委員您當時在爭取這個航班的抱機非常用心也非常努力"},{"start":12265.988,"end":12286.551,"text":"那所以那個觀光署也特別以觀光的角度促進觀光的角度我們也有100萬來補助那民航局也相當努力趕快把這個航班能夠促成所以有10個10次的來回10次的來回那現在的問題是在於說臺北跟台中飛往南港"},{"start":12287.031,"end":12311.358,"text":"他沒有加油的問題因為距離相對近300多公里對300多公里但是高雄相對遠一點航程時間接近多了一倍的航程時間國內航程最長的一條線所以就會有加油的問題那目前的困難點是遇到加油的部分需要中油來協助如果我們的飛機飛到那邊有的加油的話我覺得這個航線的價值性可能會再更高一些是的"},{"start":12311.718,"end":12340.412,"text":"那我知道委員在爭取之前的這10趟航班已經非常不容易但是確實如果你只飛10次的包機但是我現在看這個數據看起來包機的承載率還可以7成以上但是大部分是觀光所以我們大概也會朝觀光的推廣的角度繼續希望討論能不能再延長部長我打斷一下你的話目前我們馬祖防衛司令部住在高雄的人阿兵哥大概有800人左右"},{"start":12341.4,"end":12368.806,"text":"他們每個禮拜放假有130個人所以現在有很多的士官所以這個部分就不算在居民有可能算在觀光裡面那個他們給我的數據可能觀光裡面包含的這些阿兵哥因為沒有設籍在那邊就不算居民那所以我覺得確實委員您在爭取的這個我們來努力啦中油如果可以把油的部分來做改變或者是讓我們更方便的話我們請民航局這邊我們來做研議就是朝延長的方向來做研議時間很有限"},{"start":12370.246,"end":12390.359,"text":"這十班的飛機意味著只有一個月多一點所以我拜託是不是請民航局負起主導的責任要協調中油怎麼樣把油管車送到那邊去然後加油的技術人員起碼要做一個培訓把這個任務完成五階段已經過關了"},{"start":12393.069,"end":12417.328,"text":"那對民航局而言沒有什麼問題剛才部長一直把這個風向導向觀光民航導向觀光觀光署能夠補助這個錢嗎?沒辦法這個錢一定要從民航作業基金裡面虧損的部分還有我昨天也告訴華信公司每一班飛機每個航線都要虧損你們都要爭取補助嗎?你們可以自給自足啊因為70個人"},{"start":12420.066,"end":12426.709,"text":"跟50個人意味著什麼?現在票價是3960塊包機的票價如果能夠承載70個人的話這個票價有機會降到3200塊而且華信可以打平"},{"start":12438.015,"end":12456.551,"text":"所以把它成為固定航班民航局不一定要從民航作業機裡面支出非常大的一個數額所以我還是拜託何局長你回去趕快研究一下因為11月6號啟動以後只有一個月的時間這一個月的時間你要做一些"},{"start":12458.157,"end":12485.547,"text":"前置作業讓把它轉換成固定航班而且督促華信、華信航空華信航空目前飛馬組是賺錢的要不要請何局長回應一下要非常謝謝委員在這一條航線的推動上我想剛剛委員講的要我們協調我們一定盡全力來協調包含中油的加油問題或者是華信這邊公司的態度因為要申請定期航班要華信那這個部分我們盡力來協調"},{"start":12486.755,"end":12514.358,"text":"那主要還是加油因為剛剛我也有提到70個位置只賣50個位置的話其他損益良品其實在整個運作上不是那麼有效率所以如果加油問題可以解決我覺得這條航線的局長現在不是互退責任的時候不能互退中油他現在講說油罐車跟那個保險是馬油你馬祖那邊是馬油當時我時任縣長的時候啊中油說我們在公司化了馬祖油品公司要獨立出去"},{"start":12515.66,"end":12536.602,"text":"我是忍痛把他認養,認養這個兒子你現在中油怎麼可以講說,那不是我家的兒子你在全台灣的各港口機場是你們中油的責任,然後你們就給油罐車"},{"start":12538.463,"end":12561.975,"text":"就給這個加油的保險那現在馬油不是,那我們把馬祖油品公司,我也不管啦我看你中央政府要不要派馬祖不要加油嗎?你中油沒有責任嗎?難道會請台塑過去,台塑會聽這個指令嗎?不可能你中油勢必要在馬祖成立中油公司你們如果要這樣做的話,那我就我就把油停掉把油停掉我來請問行政院"},{"start":12562.677,"end":12585.492,"text":"你中油公司在幹什麼?你中油公司要派人來然後我要申請個油罐車你說只借到12月底三個月沒關係你買新的給我啊你買個新的油罐車給我啊你不能說全台灣的這些加油公司都是你兒子馬阿祖的油品公司可能是外面領養的還是小三生的你不能這樣處理啊是不是"},{"start":12586.292,"end":12602.067,"text":"所以羅副總你回答我一下油的問題是委員好有關於航油車這個部分實際上在這邊跟委員報告整個這個作業我們已經都ready好油櫃也準備好原本我們是9月份就要運到我們的這個"},{"start":12603.82,"end":12628.153,"text":"沒有原本的問題啊,我這個事情已經寫到半年還不止了那現在就是說,我們原本只是跟委員在討論這個包機部分嘛那回頭如果固定航班,因為現在整個我們會在整體再來評估看看如果我們一定會往促成這方面來進行我請問如果是固定航班的話,你油罐車要不要給我們?還有你的油的保險要不要處理?"},{"start":12628.74,"end":12654.781,"text":"如果能夠不影響我現在在高雄的機場這個部分一定全力支持油罐車的影響高雄機場什麼關係不是小港機場沒有加油的問題啊不是馬路有加油的問題啊所以我這個航遊車是從高雄機場的這個這邊借過去的啦那如果不要影響到他那邊一定來往這方面你們借油罐車給我啊我已經勉強接受了按照規矩你們買個新的油罐車給我"},{"start":12656.004,"end":12671.317,"text":"我已經很忍耐了,是不是?我已經很忍耐,不然你買個新的給我啊。你說馬祖油品公司不是你們的兒子的話,那我就請我們聯商線路把油品公司撤掉。請問,中油你們派個公司到馬祖來?"},{"start":12672.574,"end":12697.635,"text":"然後馬祖這些輪船、飛機、車輛都不要加油嗎這是中華民國政府是中央政府要負責的剛才我也跟部長開宗明義的講行的便利、交通的便捷、整個的連結你台灣這邊有高鐵、有捷運、有什麼花了幾百億、幾千億、幾兆你馬祖這個小小一個事情是不是你連高雄"},{"start":12699.158,"end":12715.837,"text":"各位數非花蓮各位數你的造飛都固定航線你馬祖為什麼給我停掉我等了20年了現在的觀光人口從以前的每年10萬人已經到40幾萬人了不一樣了所以中油到"},{"start":12717.079,"end":12731.438,"text":"民航局開會你們不要再推山阻石喔你們再推來推去我就找中油好不好你不能說油罐車我借給你借到12月底沒關係啊你借到12月底你買個新的給我你買一台新的油罐車給我你說這技術人員"},{"start":12732.726,"end":12750.854,"text":"我們都忍耐到說我們願意派個人去裡面培訓因為加飛機的汽油跟加汽車的汽油是不一樣的狀況是不是這裡面有保險,保險要幾千萬你叫連央縣政府把房子賣掉來繳這個錢嗎?怎麼可能?好不好,羅副總你回去研究,一個禮拜之內給我答覆,可以嗎?"},{"start":12753.922,"end":12776.269,"text":"那何局長這邊我就拜託部長,部長也交代啦好不好你不能十半飛機停掉啊,我想早上我不曉得許智傑委員還有李昆仁委員有沒有諮詢到這一點他們很關心啊,這個才是實質的關心既然在我們這個立法院的交通委員會有那麼多的藍綠的委員在關心這條航線我拜託部長"},{"start":12777.557,"end":12803.209,"text":"你年輕有為你有魄力,希望你這個第一槍把他打響,把這個事情不要停掉你停掉的話,我們馬祖的群眾、馬祖的民眾也好,還有軍人軍人為什麼許智傑委員還有李昆哲委員那麼關心?他們是高雄的子弟,800個人住在高雄屏東他回家的路有一些現在是市官役了,轉任市官役,他們戶口都遷到馬祖去"},{"start":12804.54,"end":12812.53,"text":"如果把油料問題解決那邊可以加油就可以滿載70個人票價不要到3900多塊可以降到3200"},{"start":12814.229,"end":12837.415,"text":"而且你在票價審議委員會的時候,3200應該滑進就可以吸收了所以也不需要你動用民航作業基金部長你覺得我這樣講法有道理嗎?我們朝這個方向來努力朝這個方向,我希望能夠說到做到好不好?部長我也拜託你,你非常年輕而且非常有魄力我希望你幫我完成這件事情,還有羅副總你回去"},{"start":12838.255,"end":12846.142,"text":"因為董事長今天列席在經濟委員會他沒辦法親自來所以羅副總我想你也是底下的技術官僚你幫我協助這問題有關這你舊的運過來借我們用沒關係"},{"start":12851.294,"end":12879.13,"text":"你不能說給我限到12底啊12月底的話那你買對不起你買一台新的給我不然的話我斷然措施請林鄉縣政府把郵品公司把它切斷切斷以後你們中油公司要派派中油公司到分公司到馬祖來要進駐馬祖然後所有的責任你們要去負責你願意這樣做嗎你划不來嘛對不對現在就這個一個加油的問題能夠幫我們解決就不是很好的事情嗎好不好"},{"start":12881.079,"end":12885.349,"text":"所以剛才部長說朝觀光儲備部分去處理"},{"start":12886.516,"end":12905.725,"text":"那不是正道那都是臨時性的請我們民航局我們現在的包機先這樣處理我想請民航局主動的很積極的去主導這件事情這才是正道好不好部長好謝謝部長謝謝羅副總謝謝何局長好不好我們謝謝組長謝謝趙偉謝謝好謝謝陳委員"},{"start":12914.517,"end":12915.138,"text":"有請郭國文委員發言"},{"start":12942.183,"end":12946.489,"text":"謝謝主席有請陳世凱部長跟黃英貴市長好陳部長市長部長好委員好部長那個來自台南有些台南的交通問題來跟您談討一下"},{"start":12959.4,"end":12977.479,"text":"大概好幾次的民調數字顯示出來臺南的交通問題是所有的市民最頭痛同時也是最期待不論是住在臺南或是來到臺南的人都有感受到臺南的交通相對其他的城市發展或其他的面向而言相對落後了"},{"start":12978.598,"end":12994.477,"text":"那是有相對落後大概幾個面向可以來做思考我想第一個就是說我們從公路運輸的部分公路運輸的部分其實你我們如果從設備面或管理面兩個角度來看的話最後的結果就是那個造勢的情況造勢率其實一直居高不下"},{"start":12995.956,"end":13018.374,"text":"那A1的部分的發生其實讓人家都非常的心痛特別是少子化的這種狀況那本席在這一個南科區的當中常常有A1的事件那都是國家的人才也是父母的心中寶貝但是問題是這個交通系統的部分政府也投入一些的部分但是有一些方向我想說就跟本部長跟市長來做探討"},{"start":13019.435,"end":13034.964,"text":"因為在整個交通系統來說他會因應整個南科的變化變化最主要南科的部分呢大部分人都住在高速公路以西也就是舊的舊城區那邊那你又要跑到高速公路以東的南科來上班"},{"start":13035.584,"end":13057.582,"text":"南科現在的就業人口數大概9萬,接下來就大概10萬所以所有新增人口當中造成整個運輸流量的一個擁擠但是偏偏這種擁擠的部分你沒有辦法解決當然你也想要一直投入在這部分也就是開闢了所謂的北外環道路北外環道路當然是正確的一個方向但是現階段因為交通的問題或房價的因素這些人已經有往北"},{"start":13062.065,"end":13084.274,"text":"行政區當中人口數成長最多就是西港區本席就是要跟你探討這個部分應該因應整個區域的發展跟需求來進行公路運輸的一個規劃我就請教部長跟市長的部分是不是應該朝向這個部分除了內政部的一些跨西大橋是屬於生活圈道路之外"},{"start":13085.054,"end":13092.963,"text":"我們交通部的公路運輸系統在整個往南科向北蔓延的情況底下到底有沒有這樣的思維?部長"},{"start":13094.401,"end":13115.373,"text":"報告委員您所提到的這些我們也認為是相當的重要所以現在其實我們也結合台南市政府大家一起在研商跟研討說要怎麼樣去解決這樣型的方面的問題那各方面不管是公路或者是鐵路各方面在努力那委員您今天關注的是公路的部分部長我先打算一下"},{"start":13115.933,"end":13137.851,"text":"因為呢地方政府通常是比較沒有錢啊那貧窮又限制了想像所以呢我們事實上現在有個35億元就是說有珍貴西港大橋底下的一個道路系統還有包括國發展立體化的一個工程這個都是好事情但是這不夠譬如講最近討論最多的是加科到南科的道路加科到南科的道路你們居然把重點放在嘉義到新穎"},{"start":13139.192,"end":13159.148,"text":"加科其實還沒有成型耶真正的成型是南科耶我剛剛說的由南往北就是南科的效應所以真正需要把高鐵橋下道路開闢的其實是南科往西營這一段這段的一個起初報告那個研究報告其實在2009年的時候就有報告出來了"},{"start":13160.75,"end":13184.35,"text":"2009年喔2009年到現在是連動都沒有動喔整個南科的發展這個一二十年來已經是產值最多了部長我慎重的提醒你這個部分應該去思考南科到加科的部分南半段的需求遠遠大過於北半段的需求南科的產值跟實質的效用遠遠大過於未來的這個加科的想像啊"},{"start":13185.09,"end":13212.082,"text":"這是ING正在發生的可是每次去呢都有不同的理由公路局都來說不同的理由每次會刊之後說要進度也沒有任何具體的進度我請部長把這些公路運輸應該發展的路徑師就在你旁邊做一個因應南科發展一個整體的規劃出來以你的高度來跟地方政府協助而不是由地方政府來跟你提出需求"},{"start":13213.243,"end":13232.914,"text":"您所提到這個高鐵橋下的這個對沒有錯就是呃台37線台39台3737吧那個南部這邊是39對對對沒關係啦重點那那這個部分當然我們現在會積極來推動啦您剛剛有提到一個問題的關鍵點是在於說我們一直在等待地方政府跟我們提"},{"start":13233.394,"end":13247.812,"text":"那現在或許我們換一個角度因為對於整個國家的發展來講臺南是相當的重要那所以我們可能由我們交通部主動來跟地方政府我們一起來協商然後把可行性評估把它做好對可行性研究把它做好"},{"start":13248.533,"end":13251.957,"text":"麻煩部長主動積極,因為部長其實也相當主動積極,就像鐵路運輸的部分,鐵路運輸的部分,兩個站體,一個山化站體,一個是農田站體的這個部分,牽扯到未來的整個捷運公共的一個相關的問題,"},{"start":13263.45,"end":13266.972,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長"},{"start":13289.042,"end":13311.236,"text":"那最後我還是要耽誤主席一點時間因為整個最關鍵的問題是六都當中現在唯一沒有捷運的就是臺南就臺南那核定的第一期的南線初步的路網的部分是涵蓋於整個高鐵的周遭這個部分這不是錯誤的這是基本的這個路網是需要可是第一個部分就是說"},{"start":13312.797,"end":13328.597,"text":"藍線的綠線的一個延伸的一個深綠線他結合了整個高鐵跟南科這兩個最重要的發展引擎這個部分我不曉得為什麼地方政府跟你溝通這麼久連這個可行性評估計畫都拖延了這麼久的時間"},{"start":13330.598,"end":13359.554,"text":"花了已經兩三年了難道是放任他們自己去深綠線確實是現在最重要的我們有私下都討論過對那這個部分確實我們鐵道局是不是也來協助一下市政府對我們協助一下市政府讓他趕快送出來也就是臺南的捷運在六都整個西海岸地區當中有沒有可能後發先知後發先知方式不是一定要複製copy因為啊要融入一些聯合開發的一個可能性是"},{"start":13360.234,"end":13389.136,"text":"我們有土地來源的單位有國有財產署啊有台糖嘛還有軍方嘛這些可能性把綜合架構說下去他剛開始的評估怎麼可能說他綜合規範效益是低於低於1以下呢不太可能的事情嘛那個陸正思或者是那個部長因為主席已經站起來了我實在不方便佔用太多時間這個部分麻煩你們好好規劃一下我剩下沒有問完的我改天再來請教你好不好我們再跟委員報告好謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":13394.012,"end":13398.158,"text":"好,謝謝國委員接下來有請王育民委員發言謝謝主席,我們是不是有請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":13415.441,"end":13442.584,"text":"部長好部長你上任到現在有沒有去過嘉義縣到目前為止還沒到目前我還沒去過所以嘉義縣一直是很需要受到關心的城市因為連部長到目前為止都還沒有去過那今天呢我就要幫水上的鄉親等待10年的鐵路高架化來爭取希望陳部長可以加速水上鐵路高架化的可行性評估跟進行"},{"start":13443.284,"end":13461.092,"text":"我來跟部長報告一下為什麼這件事這麼的重要事實上嘉義縣在去年就是年底的時候蔡英文總統她有出席到這個民雄高價化的動土典禮那這個圖請這個部長看一下民雄是嘉義縣的第一大鄉鎮"},{"start":13462.293,"end":13491.933,"text":"那他也爭取了很久現在好不容易剛開始動工這個鐵路高價化那你看到他這條鐵路從北到南他一路會經過嘉義市嘉義市也已經高價化他的下一站就是水上水上是嘉義縣第二大人口那他現在整個嘉義縣的發展包括台積電要進駐到嘉義我們整個國家的無人機的發展基地也要進到嘉義縣所以嘉義縣他在蓬勃的發展"},{"start":13492.233,"end":13515.138,"text":"那他所有土地的利用跟運用就變得非常的重要那像這個蔡總統講的他說鐵路高價化他可以去縫合原本鐵路兩旁的這個土地所以這件事情今天你們的整個軌道建設報告可以看到很多縣市都在推這個高價化你從台中出來你也可以看到"},{"start":13515.498,"end":13541.679,"text":"台中高價化之後底下這個廊道整個綠化變成公共空間其實真的是一個很值得去推動的但是嘉義縣這邊的爭取顯得非常的困難那我要特別謝謝前部長就是李孟彥部長他其實在交通委員會的安排底下8月14號他有到嘉義當地考察那原本這個爭取水上鐵路高價化這件事情呢"},{"start":13543.305,"end":13563.109,"text":"因為一直被打回票所以後來嘉義他們提了一個大平台但是那個大平台計畫前部長李孟彥部長看了都覺得不可行所以他當場他其實就有允諾就是要爭取整個鐵路高架化重新再評估那這件事情我不曉得在業務交接過程當中部長這個業務有沒有交接過來"},{"start":13566.833,"end":13596.318,"text":"如果當時李部長有答應要這麼做我們大概就會朝這個方向那我這邊所瞭解的是目前地方政府也還正在針對到底是要高價或者是大平台的部分他們還在做研議那研議的過程當然我們也會協助他們好這個地方的議員跟鄉親的意見就是要高價化最原始就是高價化是因為被你們打回票了才發展出一個大平台但是因為前部長李孟彥部長到現場看了之後他也覺得這個大平台"},{"start":13596.858,"end":13625.263,"text":"很怪不太可行所以他當場就有裁示我相信你們應該有相關會議記錄但是你們在今天的這個報告的第6頁還在寫水上大平台顯然你們都沒有更新也沒有接軌所以這個部分是不是部長你可以允諾就是今天回去之後你是不是可以去跟嘉義縣政府積極的來研議就是讓水上高高價化鐵路高價化的這件事情呢"},{"start":13625.683,"end":13643.739,"text":"可以重新評估再開始因為每一個階段他的這個評估都是不一樣的所以像過去在台中爭取這個捷運的時候也是本來說不可以的後來其實因為整個發展太快速了所以有一些線其實也都新開出來這個你也非常清楚"},{"start":13644.079,"end":13660.489,"text":"那嘉埃縣也是有這樣的情況他正在積極的發展他在起飛第二大的鄉鎮水上鄉他需要鐵路高架化請部長待會去研議好不好這個部分我們積極來跟地方政府來協商好看到底要怎麼樣定案我們來努力好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王委員接下來有請陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":13677.827,"end":13680.889,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長交通部陳部長部長,我們現在在臺南鐵路地下化的進度如何?"},{"start":13699.665,"end":13720.35,"text":"我們的鐵路地下化目前應該是在我這邊的資料是興建當中啦當然興建當中啦那預計呢預計什麼時候目前已經到80%左右的這個進度那大概什麼時候可以委員是希望知道什麼時候可以完工對不對當然你現在我現在趕快要壓日期嘛"},{"start":13721.01,"end":13743.16,"text":"押日期你們到底什麼時候讓我們可以看到我們的鐵路地下化等到那麼久了而且也都地方爭議心臟一路走過來到底什麼時候可以完成可以通車第一階段通車我們第一階段現在目標115年年底115年年底兩年後哇還這麼久"},{"start":13744.919,"end":13766.649,"text":"因為我們這一個在東門路橋的文資移購在8月底才剛剛全部處理完所以你們現在基本上都delay了嗎?有點delay嗎?我們期程是有修正所以這個delay其實看到的是所有地方對於這些工程完全的受到所謂的一個交通不方便"},{"start":13767.631,"end":13789.726,"text":"所以我覺得我們應該要快一點把它能夠加速雖然這個是非戰之隊因為文資文資的問題沒有辦法不停下來這確實在這一段鐵路地下化的過程當中我們必須要尊重一些這個文資的一些過程處理可是我覺得要沒錯但是我們要趕快當停下來還是要把時間補進來那台南舊車站的規劃呢因為是古蹟啊"},{"start":13798.472,"end":13823.088,"text":"是古蹟目前很多台南的鄉親確實在反反應那個古蹟之前圍了很久沒錯沒錯大家眼睛都在看啦對確實圍了非常久來是不是田 請台鐵他跟委員報告齁因為古蹟車站嘛齁那現在的進度是已經有配合設計展齁做一個微改造齁那包括外觀跟內部有一個初步的一個裝修齁"},{"start":13824.349,"end":13838.086,"text":"那未來包括明年我們會配合市府站前廣場的一個改善計畫我們會做這個站前廣場的一個配合改善再把"},{"start":13839.484,"end":13862.832,"text":"車站的門面做一個美化在明年什麼時候我知道現在地方政府都在收集地方的資料跟意見就是說在戰前改建廣場的改建這是我們小時候大家共同的記憶是這很重要那個我們會配合市府那邊的這個設計對那預計多久預計多久在這個戰前的我們會比較早進行"},{"start":13866.458,"end":13889.666,"text":"對,比較早進行是大家預計大概在明年的下半年要下半年對為什麼要下半年因為還要去設計一下我覺得速度要快啦因為其實那是我的選區啦我每天幾乎都要經過所以在這樣的狀況之下我們所看到的每次的危機不進度"},{"start":13892.537,"end":13921.483,"text":"這會讓人民信心指數下降所以我們希望快一點然後當你在施工的時候配套交尾一定要做好這個麻煩再來就是我們的這個第一期藍線延伸線的這個部分這個我要問部長我們2024年8月13號交通部已經審查通過我們的可行性研究審查通過部裡面而已喔"},{"start":13922.765,"end":13923.849,"text":"行政院打算什麼時候要通過?"},{"start":13929.417,"end":13952.146,"text":"有信心他什麼時候可以通過因為他會有一些意見意見之後要你們修正他目前的修正齁剛送過來在9月底的時候送過來交通部了那現在鐵道局正在演繹當中他演繹送來交通部我們會趕快趕快來加進所以你們認為預計什麼時候在行政院這個區塊你們會有信心把它通過因為你們有看過他的意見嗎"},{"start":13954.411,"end":13972.377,"text":"他9月底給你們的意見你們很清楚啦這些意見你到底可不可以去做處理是可不可以修正是這很清楚啊你不要是來來去去然後送過去然後行政院又送回來那來來去去光這個公文的旅行就已經影響到我們的時間啊"},{"start":13973.297,"end":13989.133,"text":"現在是這樣就是他修正市政府已經送過來了是我們在我們在演商當中演繹當中我們當然會希望說不要再來來回回是一次就能夠解決啦一次叫來把所有的問題都討論好對沒錯然後送給行政院因為他已經把所有意見給你了嘛"},{"start":13990.034,"end":14017.135,"text":"是我們希望送過去的這個版本新的修正版本送過去可以趕快讓它你們什麼時候要送送到把地方政府跟你們的修正意見送給行政院我們在一個月以內會從交通部送到行政院一個月以內現在是那交通部的部分我們會來那個行政院的部分我們也會來拜託他們速度加快11月中會送行政院11月底11月底11月底11月底11月底那就一個多月喔"},{"start":14017.955,"end":14044.096,"text":"呃...今天是23號嗎?對啊!就一個多月囉!下個月的23號左右好不好?好!下個月23號你一定要送出喔!是!因為為什麼這個藍線的延伸線會很重要因為它可以加乘藍線的效果對!它的經濟效益跟交通效益因為它連接的會是往所謂的高鐵台南站跟轉運站去做結合"},{"start":14044.776,"end":14063.838,"text":"這是非常重要的因為其實捷運站可以是不是成功是他有沒有符合整個交通網絡的一個對他沒有網絡入網完成他會變成有缺口有缺口達成性就不高"},{"start":14065.154,"end":14093.74,"text":"所以這個重要性是它的延伸線會加成藍線的效果所以為什麼我們一直在追就是這一點點所以拜託部長我們相約11月23號11月23一定要送出去然後呢是我們交通部跟我們地方政府把所有的問題都理清了然後送給行政院不要來來回回一次兩次那就"},{"start":14094.4,"end":14115.695,"text":"看得到我們交通部的能力囉這個再拜託我們希望我們這個藍線延伸線趕快經通過可行性行政院的可行性評估這樣子的話那才有下一步啊你可行性沒有通過下一步根本都不用講就遙遙無期了再拜託謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員接下來有請陳清輝委員發言"},{"start":14130.683,"end":14133.665,"text":"主席好我想請部長好交通部陳部長好部長交通部跟台鐵為了今年開始要推動到116年的這個維修計畫特地在去年就超前部署這個計畫真的超長你也知道執行台鐵所需"},{"start":14157.2,"end":14176.472,"text":"鐵路基礎建設及車輛之建設重製重構維修經費辦法結果我跟行政院求證交通部一直到今年的6月20才送行政院審核這個是去年就應該要做的專案然後今年已經快要結束了可是怎麼會拖到6月20號才審核"},{"start":14178.84,"end":14206.645,"text":"是我們6月份送到行政院去審核那沒有錯就像委員上面所說的現在行政院應該還沒有核定吧這個部分還沒有核定還在院那邊對那是113年到116年對一個計畫那您延宕的這個問題是出在哪裡呢就是在審議的過程中呢有一些這個項目還有費用還有它的用途需要做一個進一步的說明跟澄清"},{"start":14207.999,"end":14224.96,"text":"好這邊我再舉另外幾個例子因為民眾也會非常的擔心像這個是鐵路行車安全改善6年計劃原本109年就要執行完展延到111年又展延到113年你們今年做得完嗎做得完"},{"start":14225.663,"end":14248.238,"text":"所以今年沒有要再展延了沒有那今年本席也會在年底前跟您要一份這個結案報告好嗎好可以沒問題那另外還有一個這個臺鐵整體購置及汰換車輛的計畫原本是今年也要把該買的買一買該換的都換掉然後又嚴重的延宕展延到116年才做得完"},{"start":14248.778,"end":14256.582,"text":"這個我們有報修正計畫因為跟委員報告的確因為疫情跟供應鏈的影響有一些車種他交車有點延誤"},{"start":14259.016,"end":14288.338,"text":"所以您覺得對116年換完是有信心的?可以現在交車都恢復正常因為國人的安全都掛在這上面嘛最後這個臺鐵電務智慧化提升計畫也是說113年要完成現在又多要求三年是嗎?跟委員報告本來是到115啦現在我們也是有報一個修正計畫要延到118年"},{"start":14290.983,"end":14311.212,"text":"所以116變到118部長部長您看他幾乎每一個計畫都延宕的非常的嚴重好像延案都變成台鐵的常態了那你在任內可以確保他剛講的這些日期的執行預算執行率都不會再低於預估的期程嗎"},{"start":14312.792,"end":14333.865,"text":"報告委員我接任交通部長之後瞭解臺鐵的狀況確實我發現他的計畫非常的多計畫真的非常非常多那如果沒有看資料大概名字也念不出來計畫非常多那再來就是說確實很多計畫都有延宕的現象那我們現在一個案一個案正在檢討當中就是說當時為何延宕"},{"start":14334.665,"end":14356.311,"text":"那我們為什麼要了解為何延宕因為我們希望未來不要再延宕就是我們現在已經展延了展延之後不要再展延了這個部分我們來確保但是我們剛才聽到116又到118啦對這個修正計畫推過來就是118那這個案子其實我也了解啦那也有跟他們討論過說怎麼去預防說未來還要再延宕的問題這個部分我們正在處理"},{"start":14357.244,"end":14372.262,"text":"好 謝謝那最後當然我是從高雄來的嘛所以當然也有非常多鄉親我也知道您總諮詢這幾天有被問到這個問題請問今年年底是不是您就可以決定進高雄市區的這個方案"},{"start":14372.822,"end":14388.808,"text":"今年年底我們會在左營方案跟高雄方案選定一個方案來做好決定因為卓院長有信誓旦旦在總質詢的時候說如果你已經決定要採高雄案的話現在要趕快做才可以省一筆錢請問這個計算的依據是什麼"},{"start":14391.807,"end":14412.76,"text":"因為我們現在看到很多的交通建設越晚啟動它的成本越高那也看到有一些包含桃園包含其他地方的這個修正計畫提報過來都看到物價指數在提高然後那個勞工的那個薪資也提高所以你們年底前就會給我們好消息就一定要決定我們會決定方案對年底前一定要決定方案"},{"start":14413.7,"end":14432.991,"text":"本席在這邊也想跟您說我也是支持高鐵進高雄站的但是到時候現在居民還有我們的選民們他們很關心的就是你這個交通維持計畫大家擔心說你一旦宣布可不可以就開始啟動未來他們因應這個交通黑暗期的方式"},{"start":14433.351,"end":14450.7,"text":"當我們選定方案之後未來的因應就要馬上跟地方政府來討論這個部分我們會依委員的要求盡快來跟地方政府來討論未來的整個維護計畫所以大家也很期待參加您的這個說明會是好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員接下來請徐巧卿委員"},{"start":14470.845,"end":14474.381,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請那個陳部長好,交通部陳部長"},{"start":14482.639,"end":14511.167,"text":"部長好我們想要很直接的來詢問就是關於其實這幾次交通委員會質詢大家都很關心的這個臺鐵耗製系統的更新工程那這個工程因為它的這個項目然後還有它的金額非常高高達81億供期從110年7月到115年的8月那等於是擁有5年的時間然後來做這樣子的整體的更新耗製那請問一下"},{"start":14511.607,"end":14532.587,"text":"我們這個案子目前已經付出去的有多少的經費?跟委員報告我們在合約成立的時候付了22億的預付款那另外還有就是西門子他的那個記軸器到貨的時候到貨的時候有付了一部分對不對?"},{"start":14534.048,"end":14544.998,"text":"那但是呢我想要問一下就是說這個這個標誌的標號的工程啊目前進度就你們來說呢落後的比例現在高達了35%高達35%為什麼會有這樣的情形發生"},{"start":14550.043,"end":14568.324,"text":"部長請回答目前他們給我的進度是落後了差不多百分之您寫的是35他們給我是37應該其實差不多落後的原因我覺得有幾項第一個就是說當時在標案的過程當中西門子他當然就得標了但是"},{"start":14569.205,"end":14597.45,"text":"標完之後他們對於整個合約的這個想法跟概念的認知跟臺鐵確實是有落差這是一項第二項是西門子目前在履約的過程當中我認為他們的能力上面包含他的人力上面確實是有落差的那這個部分臺鐵也覺得蠻困擾所以也組成了專案小組一直在跟他們溝通也一直在跟他們協商那我們希望說後續的進度能夠追得上"},{"start":14598.31,"end":14625.5,"text":"這個上一次在這個洪孟楷委員在交通委員會的時候有質詢過但是我必須講哦在因為這個議題呢我雖然第一次在交通委員會問可是呢我跟你們所知蠻多次的第一次問你們的時候呢這個當然不是陳部長的任內啦那得到的回覆是說因為COVID-19所以計劃落後進度落後要扮演展演但問題是呢我們從這整個進度來看呢疫情指揮中心在2023年的112年5月1號就已經解閉"},{"start":14627.841,"end":14628.822,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告"},{"start":14648.413,"end":14673.217,"text":"那我們再來看一下落後進度的部分到底是如何的來 這個呢 交通號致連鎖系統更新工程的進度圖項目10裡面是宜蘭蘇澳新站預定開始的時間是2023年的4月預計完工的時間是2023年5月請問部長2023年5月離現在已經整整一年多了現在目前完工了嗎"},{"start":14675.599,"end":14686.672,"text":"報告委員還沒有還沒有那原因是什麼呢這個就是剛剛有提到就是西門子他沒有辦法來執行沒有辦法執行那所以說呢現在個施工廠兩手一攤還要另外發包你看喔"},{"start":14693.018,"end":14708.585,"text":"立約商於今年9月份的PMO會議明確指示沒有辦法配合新馬灣道改善工程所以現在要再另外發包處理那原計2023年5月22號要完工現在還要另外發包那請問狀況是什麼?"},{"start":14711.892,"end":14729.134,"text":"這跟委員報告就是說另外發包是因為我們至少我們這邊臺鐵公司這邊比較了解現況所以我們這個部分我們會另外發一個包去處理但是但是這一個包的費用我們會跟西門子拿好"},{"start":14729.614,"end":14746.491,"text":"那因為時間的關係我再把最後的幾張powerpoint講完我相信這個你們都清楚但是我想要告訴的是社會大眾說這一個81億的工程裡面到底有多少是落後的情況來下一張湖口示範站一樣進度嚴重落後再來"},{"start":14748.012,"end":14766.505,"text":"這個也是一樣依照合約應該要暫停計價那工期我們也不知道延長到什麼時候所以這個案子從一開始開標就有日系跟歐系是否可以符合的爭議又有因為評分外流的投訴到工程會的事情到了今天進度仍然是嚴重的落後"},{"start":14767.125,"end":14782.017,"text":"又要轉延又要暫停競價又有新趕工的進度對於這個工程的得標過程感到非常多的疑慮現在說要延到118年會不會連我們賴總統任期第一個任期最晚這4年都沒有辦法有"},{"start":14782.998,"end":14805.643,"text":"最好的進度部長最後你回答一下這整個81億的大計畫處處都是落後請問應該要如何處置他們現在有提出修正的計畫工程還會再往後延延到什麼時候現在延到118年嘛那我們延到118年這個不能再落後我們現在要確保是再延這一次不能再落後所以至少118年之前要完成好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":14809.34,"end":14809.46,"text":"黃國昌委員"},{"start":14831.726,"end":14852.483,"text":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請交通部的部長以及臺鐵股份有限公司的杜董事長杜董事長兩位好第一個交通部在疫情的期間推廣一個虛擬實境觀光海陸慢行這個計畫花了9000萬"},{"start":14860.587,"end":14877.928,"text":"這個就花了九千萬花了九千萬目前交通部認為這個效果好不好當時是因為疫情的過程這個我了解對就是因為疫情所以採用虛擬觀光嗎是啊沒有錯對那虛擬觀光效果好不好"},{"start":14878.89,"end":14903.78,"text":"現在大家應該疫情過了大家都去現場不太會用虛擬的啦我指的是在那段時間當中的效果好不好花九千萬值不值得這個就是我問題的核心啊我知道這不是你任內發生的所以我沒有要甩鍋給你的意思啦部長不用太過緊張但我們花納稅人的錢做事情我們總是要實事求是嘛做不好"},{"start":14904.64,"end":14930.03,"text":"承認做不好我們檢討改進以後不要再犯這個是我覺得應該要有的基本態度沒錯所以在這個情況下我真的要拜託交通部就像我上一次質詢觀光署辦的那個活動一樣這太誇張了丟了九千萬下去丟了九千萬下去結果還是限制型招標"},{"start":14931.753,"end":14959.311,"text":"當得標的人是跟民進黨關係特別好的杜益謹你聽過吧杜益謹我聽過對嘛那大家就會開始質疑嘛是能力好還是關係好嘛但我覺得空泛的去質疑能力好還是關係好關係好沒有道理所以我們要看成效嘛來我給部長報告一下好請委員指教來海陸慢行啊是"},{"start":14961.119,"end":14988.252,"text":"說做了12支片子這個Youtube訂閱117個人部長你有沒有看到下面關染次數有394次148次208次76次73次這個不是今天早上上片的兩年前上片的這個成效我如果用慘不忍睹來形容部長你同不同意"},{"start":14988.996,"end":15016.686,"text":"是報告委員我不曉得他這個除了YT上面上架之外有沒有在其他的平台不曉得還有那如果有的話就要整個中整期來看我等一下會馬上一個一個檢驗我們既然花了錢花了9000萬有網站嘛有YT嘛有FB嘛各個社群平台都上我是一個實事求是的人我們就一樣一樣來看好那可在其他的地方成效卓著也不一定"},{"start":15018.132,"end":15043.985,"text":"但以YT來講我個人看的是上架兩年以後這個觀看次數幾十次到兩三百次我大概只有四個字形容慘不能賭錢不能這樣花這是我的立場然後呢他們說晚上他們說有一個網站有收羅各式各樣的人我先假設啦都沒有找人來灌這個有一萬"},{"start":15045.299,"end":15072.578,"text":"四千六百個用戶上線一萬四千六百個用戶平均每一個用戶體驗一次多少錢大概八千塊吧這個cost benefit我們花納稅的錢去推廣光光目的絕對正當絕對是好事啦但我只有質疑一件事啊錢是不是應該要這樣花第二個我要問的事情是委員會真的覺得很怪"},{"start":15073.567,"end":15102.433,"text":"就我們大家就實事求是把事情做好評估成效的時候也不要好像要遮醜我為什麼要遮醜媒體報導10月16號的報導去質疑這個花這九千萬到底是在幹嘛結果你知道嗎結果10月18號的時候臉書跟IG就關了這個臉書跟IG的所有權使用權應該是我們交通部的吧"},{"start":15104.022,"end":15121.869,"text":"這是我們花錢設的欸阿誰把他關阿部長可以回去瞭解一下好 這個我回去瞭解你回去瞭解一下是誰把他關阿好阿這個很怪嘛你派人家批評批評完了以後發現臉書有1064名追蹤IG有1249名粉絲比YT好一點阿"},{"start":15129.79,"end":15157.977,"text":"可是報告委員他們給我一個數據啦這個部分我還是要回去再查證他們說API的訪問次數達到6800多萬那網頁的瀏覽次數達到4億2000多萬這個數據我回去會再查證我今天提出來我覺得效應要好好的盯請你回去好好的查證因為你如果講的那個數字是真的10月16號這個媒體報導交通部叫大力駁斥善不假訊息啊"},{"start":15158.957,"end":15177.412,"text":"他上面寫的是一萬四千六百個用戶上線啊一萬四千六百個用戶上線搞虛擬觀光那我就會算啊除以九千萬大概平均一個用戶多少錢嘛是匯後的部分剛剛今天問到的問題沒有答案的匯後部長一個禮拜之內順便回覆可以嗎"},{"start":15178.617,"end":15196.051,"text":"這個部分應該可以不好意思那個主席我可以借用一分鐘嗎很快請那個臺鐵局的不好意思臺鐵股份有限公司的董事長那個董事長我上次在關心那個平交道遮斷器的事情"},{"start":15197.379,"end":15219.622,"text":"這個事情很嚴重嘛牽涉到列車的安全行人的安全經過評價報的安全那我知道你很重視啊因為我知道董事長好像過去我質詢完了以後過去這幾天四個電務段的同仁都早來開會了嘛是是嗎是那你們開會檢討完以後現在的結論是什麼覺得很安全要繼續裝嗎"},{"start":15221.075,"end":15244.561,"text":"是跟委員報告齁那個我們也有陸續提供資料給委員齁包括我們上一次講兩週內要提不是沒有因為時間的關係所以就給我結論就是你開完會的結論是覺得這家公司做得很安全叫髒話的不要再抗拒了我們繼續裝嗎不是我們現在的做法就是因為我們有去檢視了齁該這家公司他發生的問題那個"},{"start":15246.582,"end":15272.97,"text":"我們要求他改善的這個整個過程我們都有去檢視那現在的確他改善以後是收斂的收到很低所以這個部分我們會特別注意好第二個我聽說你們還要再給這家公司另外開一個1.9億的標案讓他改善電源真的還假的啊因為我聽到的時候我很震驚啊我前面給你那麼多錢事情沒做好搞得不安全要延宕已經很誇張啦"},{"start":15274.634,"end":15300.297,"text":"聽說那家公司獅子大開口啊說要再開個1.9億的特別標案給他們改善電源系統有沒有這件事跟委員報告齁如果有這個案子的話我們絕對公開招標所以你的意思是說有這個案子就對了是不是有這個案子有有有這個案子他如果是公開招標應該就不一定是原本的那個廠商吧"},{"start":15301.209,"end":15328.106,"text":"就是搭配現有我們臺鐵的電源改善嘛跟那個機座改善該改善的改善該花的錢花該改善的改善該花的錢花但是廠商拿的錢事情沒做好就要他做到好為止如果做不好該解約解約該請求賠償該請求賠償這件事情董事長可不可以承諾我是可以可以好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":15331.553,"end":15350.481,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員接下來有請吳立華委員發言謝謝主席,有請交通部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":15352.964,"end":15376.77,"text":"今天我們素發部長又來,素為部長部長好我109年進入到立法院就接到一個小型露營場合法化這樣的一個陳情訴求那陪伴了兩年做了公聽會做了質詢非常感謝交通部終於在109年的11月願意做主管機關"},{"start":15378.01,"end":15381.375,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就 «我國軌道建設執行概況》進二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":15394.452,"end":15417.268,"text":"目前違法竟然是91%也就是說當初去處理小型露營場合法化是為了要讓他們合法納管這是為著我們消費者以及業主的權益可是我們來看一下它分兩階段第一階段是處理用地的問題有1440家去申請第一階段核准了461家"},{"start":15422.574,"end":15444.388,"text":"第二階段是跟錢的問題有關因為為了要去符合法規結果呢最後通過的有40家我不用問一看就知道這樣的一個成效應該是不髒啊非常的不好那我們來分析一下原因我要講第一階段是用地的部分部長你聽聽看好"},{"start":15446.369,"end":15469.004,"text":"國土保安用地、土石溜潛勢區、環境敏感區區有19項都會被輔導退場那這樣子幹嘛要小型露營場合法化我舉個最簡單的例子原住民很多幾乎都在國土保安用地跟土石溜潛勢區但是大家就想不通我們部落就在那邊建造都可以拿到為什麼那個樹地"},{"start":15471.425,"end":15491.367,"text":"可以蓋房子沒有辦法蓋帳棚那這樣子幹嘛要推動小型露營場合法化如何保障消費者的權益所以我常常講是不是我們應該也要去產分級的管理不是這樣子一律把它進建那第二個原因什麼原因哇 索費不支欸"},{"start":15492.748,"end":15510.448,"text":"因為您知道嗎?你看他們要面對環敏地區他的一個規費就6000塊然後他要去取得那些建築執照每一年安全結構就要2萬那再來水土保持這些從減益的30到60萬不等"},{"start":15511.309,"end":15530.497,"text":"明年起又有水污法所以他們現在都要處理花一筆污水處理廠的錢都還沒有含工程費用可能就要花掉一百萬他們也願意但是請看一下部長我們的露營廠的作業辦法好不容易編了好幾千萬要去輔導"},{"start":15531.798,"end":15547.804,"text":"明明交通部在111年的4月質詢的時候會議記錄也都有說過在輔導充足入法之前不會去違法取締可是他們只要一申請那些人來就先給他收一個違規取締"},{"start":15549.324,"end":15563.758,"text":"那這樣子到底怎麼辦所以呢是不是這個要點應該要予以修改那我再給你看一個案例這個人呢他寫LINE給我他說他為了符合第一階段第二階段他已經花130萬了結果最後又卡在什麼呢連我的砧板都要拆我要再多花二三十萬"},{"start":15569.804,"end":15592.996,"text":"他說是農業局不同意所以一堆又是中央地方政府不同調部會之間不同調好因為時間的關係零零總總我舉一個還有一個不同調的問題我們來看一下這個關於我們的露營場的範圍位於環敏地區的認定明明112年4月13號會議記錄協調會是寫著說"},{"start":15598.178,"end":15617.265,"text":"只要營衛設施、衛生設施管理師不得位於環境敏感地區可是隔了4個月跟地方政府會議我們交通部竟然退讓欸因為桃園市政府苗栗、新竹南投這些縣市強烈主張通通"},{"start":15618.425,"end":15645.59,"text":"都不行那這樣子到底要怎麼推動我都不曉得了所以我是希望說關於這些我剛剛講的帳篷啊、砧板啊這種可以隨時移動的到底要怎麼認定它位於什麼地方要怎麼認定我覺得錢大家我聽起來大家都願意花錢合法花那也需要尋求政府的幫助我自己會找原民會但是我覺得法規的部分的鬆綁"},{"start":15646.75,"end":15659.785,"text":"要不然沒有辦法推動我覺得是給我們的老百姓看笑話所以我在這個地方就是請部長幾個訴求像是我們原住民族土地使用管制規則這個部分"},{"start":15662.128,"end":15685.17,"text":"我們的國土計劃法明年上路有開放一個空間讓我們另以法律定資那我們也要推動高山農業農業部那邊我幾度質詢農業部長都尊重會配合我們國土計劃法下的原住民族土地使用管制規則我覺得這個空間我也要問交通部長願不願意來支持"},{"start":15687.295,"end":15712.715,"text":"好,報告委員,這個部分我們當然也尊重原住民的這個土地的使用那這個部分我們也會找原民會大家來溝通再結商好,那我希望說院長,我在總諮詢的時候,包括國土計畫法院長有承諾說要找一個政委召開跨部落的會議協調其他的合法化事宜那我希望說在今年底前召開,而且要複製本席可以嗎?"},{"start":15713.439,"end":15731.784,"text":"好,好,沒問題那謝謝齁那我在這個部分就後續我會繼續的來持續關注那也希望那個辦法要點的部分希望觀光局要趕快的來處理然後盡速的發文,可以嗎?好,我請觀光署盡速來處理好,謝謝部長齁,謝謝主席好,謝謝吳立華委員接下來有請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":15751.529,"end":15753.739,"text":"有請部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":15761.512,"end":15790.821,"text":"部長好 朋友好我今天要談的事實上是我們的高齡者交通安全好 下一頁不過要談之前先來談一下無照駕駛我上個會期呢諮詢過三次了也開過記者會了因為平均每一年大概7萬人然後最近內湖的是未成年然後三死兩傷那這樣的一個傷亡呢一個死亡事實上是1600萬的成本受傷是181萬成本所以這樣下起來大概我們的社會成本"},{"start":15791.481,"end":15814.199,"text":"將近千億所以想問希望部長在這個會期是不是對於扣車連帶處罰儘快的有一個對策下一頁這次我主要還是要來談就是我們的高齡就是說今年其實發生了多起的高齡包含我們立法院的提過高齡換照議題的賴世保委員"},{"start":15817.097,"end":15846.143,"text":"還有我們的彰化的姐弟案和文化大學便當店女老闆的案子裡邊都是高齡駕駛的肇事產生的傷害當然這是個別當事人是不是具有駕駛能力還有或者是這都要經過專業的檢測來判斷不過我們還是要去想到是已經進入到超高齡社會明年度所以這高齡化趨勢跟延伸的交通問題所以想問部長你們有沒有掌握高齡的"},{"start":15846.343,"end":15849.984,"text":"臺鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":15875.543,"end":15876.484,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告"},{"start":15897.324,"end":15898.125,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":15914.7,"end":15934.723,"text":"至今事實上還是沒有納管當初106年的時候說75歲以上就不要管了那110年交通部就已經知道這個問題有21%有駕車需求有沒有調查這83歲以上的那大概10萬4千人難怪今年度高齡的一個駕駛造成別人的傷害事實上"},{"start":15935.563,"end":15940.905,"text":"主動關懷、鼓勵有用嗎?這是交通部自己寫的我透過鼓勵關懷,關懷這些人他就是有駕車需求啊"},{"start":15961.963,"end":15989.157,"text":"是我們的關懷是這樣子我們關懷看他們的家人可不可以協助他行的需求這第一個第二個看可不可以如果可以協助他的話可不可以把駕照給繳回就是希望他能夠不要開車但如果真的有需求那也還真的沒有辦法因為今天高齡就已經造成他人的傷亡也有可能造成自己傷亡來下一頁75歲以上超高齡的駕駛的交通事故也是持續"},{"start":15990.137,"end":16006.946,"text":"你再興致之後還是持續成長而且6年間成長一倍受傷人數也成長了4成所以我覺得江部不能對這種漏洞視而不見因為我們明年就即將進入到超高齡的社會所以我覺得來下一頁"},{"start":16007.646,"end":16009.288,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司"},{"start":16024.923,"end":16025.604,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長"},{"start":16045.166,"end":16069.868,"text":"三十一點九二%空死率事實上是二十五點九三我覺得要拿出一些對策來了下一頁所以我在這邊大概提醒交通部是不是兩週內是不是可以給我提供這樣的一個第一個交通部是不是應該針對超高齡的駕駛人納入高齡駕駛的管理制度主動了解長者的需求那第二個交通部應該要去提供"},{"start":16070.985,"end":16096.353,"text":"所謂的車輛安全裝置的補助甚至建立主動繳回的駕照的獎勵補助機制比照我們的日韓這些國家所以就是鼓勵所謂的企業團體像其他國家會有購物的折扣你繳回來的時候有購物的折扣甚至老花眼鏡、助聽器、電動車都有一些折扣甚至銀行的優惠利率可不可以去談這些東西甚至讓保險業加入那最後就是交通部"},{"start":16097.013,"end":16103.716,"text":"應持續針對偏鄉公共運輸供給普及率及使用彈性提供補助以上麻煩兩周"},{"start":16120.831,"end":16126.116,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請林倩琦委員發言謝謝主席我這邊有請交通部長及相關的單位好 交通部陳部長"},{"start":16144.787,"end":16147.869,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":16163.621,"end":16181.027,"text":"好 部長您好我們上個禮拜見過在上個禮拜的總質詢本席其實跟您提到今天不僅是討論交通議題本席對於整個交通議題背後的永續發展非常的重視那希望這次質詢我們可以就這個部分做個討論"},{"start":16182.447,"end":16208.415,"text":"不過首先我要先幫元香來請命也就是我這個暑假在豐年季的時候我們鄉親就跟我談到台九縣現在一個戰備跑道部落這邊有一些反彈那裡面當然很多原因所以現在就是這個戰備跑道我知道國防部目前還在談但是很重要的是我必須要知道目前的進度因為部落對於這個部分是非常的激烈的有意見"},{"start":16209.395,"end":16233.722,"text":"所以我們期待這個戰備跑道不會就在沒有好好的溝通大家都有認同度的情況下然後被建置了那你們知道在縱谷有你們那個戰機的這個回音是非常吵人的所以本席又是學音樂的所以對聲音非常的敏感所以非常深刻的可以同理在地的鄉親這樣一個訴求所以請國防部給我們一個回應而且讓我們隨時知道你們的進度好不好謝謝"},{"start":16239.304,"end":16266.497,"text":"好那接下來就是在我們今天談文資嘛所以臺鐵其實在這個很多的車站都具有文資的一個背景或者是有文資的身份那目前有一座這個舊台鐵舊基隆的車站那它在這個月臺及雕花的這個區塊在最近臺鐵針對這個部分要做一些修整"},{"start":16266.877,"end":16292.399,"text":"但引發在地居民一些反彈那我不知道這個部長您有沒有去了解而且您是不是對於鐵柱雕花的棚架有一些了解是我對這個鐵柱雕花的棚架的了解是它已經是一個100多年的建築那有很多的這個網路上的朋友在講說這個很像那個門司港九州的門司港的那個車站它上面的那個那個棚架是很類似的那我也跟他謝謝那我相信您應該知道它的價值"},{"start":16293.48,"end":16317.968,"text":"所以臺鐵我後面要講的是你們其實應該也跟文化部這邊有一些交流大概現在從上次鐵道博物館一直到未來延伸出來在這樣整個的文物館的建設系統裡面其實你們應該非常緊密的在開會結果還會出現這樣的問題可能有點遺憾我們那個棚架有一部分已經在鐵道博物館了有拆除的部分已經在鐵道博物館收藏"},{"start":16318.368,"end":16318.548,"text":"文化資產法與鐵道"},{"start":16337.828,"end":16345.175,"text":"臺鐵有臺鐵文化保存及活用小組你們會定期的開會所以剛才本席在一開始覺得怎麼現在還會出現這個以前文資剛開始在推動時候的這個狀況是有點蠻難思議的"},{"start":16351.041,"end":16369.837,"text":"但是這個部分本席其實今天要講的阿里山鐵道雖然你們現在在這個主管單位農業部是佔很大的一個比例不過裡面有一些移購跟他現有的一些財產是跟你們有關的所以待會兩件事情本席第一個是要談有形文化資產跟無形文化資產的一個連結那臺鐵"},{"start":16373.74,"end":16374.741,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長"},{"start":16405.162,"end":16416.135,"text":"連結這個山上跟部落的這樣一個系統是就觀光的角度這個確實是應該要連結起來然後也跟部落做一個商討那未來應該怎麼發展對觀光的推動會有幫助"},{"start":16417.859,"end":16444.321,"text":"所以這邊我就是你們的觀光推動小組的功能應該要再更積極一點那大家不要互推責任因為就如上次我跟部長這邊講常常你說這不是我的業務那不是我的業務但是當我們今天談舊鐵道還有文資這樣一個概念全台我們不可能在整個清朝時期然後一直到這個日本政府時期一直到現在我們的鐵道其實是佔了臺灣很大一個比例"},{"start":16445.041,"end":16465.78,"text":"所以在文化資產方面的各種等級都必須在被考量但是阿里山鐵道有一個跟你們有關係的部分是那個車廂現在大家都在做測試但是安全係數是一個很嚴重的問題這個安全係數上過去的生鐵是在木頭現在生鐵要在旅客那我們知道"},{"start":16466.4,"end":16485.991,"text":"那個升鐵經常出了一些狀況那這個狀況你們有真正去檢測到安全係數的問題嗎?包括車輛的速度、載重、外部環境、氣候、地質本席就知道大概在上個月又有一個出軌的事件又有一個出軌事件還好那時候沒有人在車上"},{"start":16487.672,"end":16513.802,"text":"所以本席把這個問題給反映是是是但是那個車廂是你們的啊現在是的那我要講的一個重點就是同樣的概念雖然他現在這個林保署已經把它承接下來但是過去在鐵道的工程這個部分不是說你一承接大家就可以處理這整個系統的界面啊所以這為什麼是本席今天在這邊特別提出來因為如果有什麼狀況我們懷疑的還是鐵道是是"},{"start":16517.403,"end":16535.811,"text":"最後就是國土計畫法已經要上路了這個是文化部新平溪煤礦博物館是台灣現在唯一僅存的一個煤礦相關的園區裡面當然也有軌道本席常去每去一次就覺得我好像走在未來的歷史當中我們不知道它的軌道該怎麼辦"},{"start":16536.471,"end":16559.879,"text":"然後最重要的是現在國土計劃法要上路了那它就面臨到整個煤礦遺址的存續那這個部分軌道當然跟這個交通部的交通有關你們不要跟我講業務範圍但是很重要的是那文化的這個區塊文化部不知道你們對這個部分目前怎麼看待文化部今天應該有代表有啊主秘不是應該有來嗎對"},{"start":16565.312,"end":16589.063,"text":"時間關係我也不要佔用太多那主委我跟您這邊提出這樣一個問題那也請你們給本席一個報告好不好那剛才本席提了幾個議題跟問題那希望交通部這邊從交通部的高度給本席所提的永續的一個推動很具體的一個報告回應那兩個禮拜可以嗎?可以喔?好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":16594.878,"end":16599.28,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":16614.963,"end":16631.389,"text":"好 部長好部長本席跟我們交委以及很多委員都很關心這個假車牌的事件是尤其假車牌現在非常氾濫那今天又看到一個新的新聞他說扣牌沒有監管買原車牌假牌啪啪走"},{"start":16632.919,"end":16654.153,"text":"這什麼樣的情況就是說他牌可能被扣了扣完之後他就直接上網去訂一樣的號碼那因為一樣的號碼如果說被警方查到的時候車型一樣這個車主行照什麼都一樣很有可能就被雲木混珠混過了那但是他其實是被扣牌的是所以這就變成是一個漏洞對"},{"start":16655.114,"end":16670.542,"text":"好 那我們看其中這個媒體他就有下一頁其中媒體他就有去訪問他講說其實如果說我們現在全台灣有ETC也有很多的一個繳費的地方各縣市警局打擊犯罪也都有側排辨識的監視器系統"},{"start":16672.483,"end":16674.504,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就 «我國軌道建設執行概況》進二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":16692.506,"end":16709.776,"text":"假車牌的狀況給揪出來部長您覺得勒?我覺得這個方法是可以進入討論那這個部分我們也可以來跟這個執法單位現在執法單位是內政部警政署那這個部分我們來跟他們溝通ETC高速公路上面的ETC應該是廠商吧"},{"start":16710.757,"end":16728.766,"text":"在高工局高工局啊主要的資料會來自於交通部但有個問題就是說個資的部分會不會有影響到這個我們來研究一下好如果在不影響的狀況底下我們來跟執法單位也好或者是所謂的ETC的ETEC有裝停車場的或者高速公路上面的我們來討論這個可能性應該這麼說"},{"start":16730.367,"end":16752.339,"text":"今天有很多的車牌他可能有重複的我之前也聽過警界的朋友跟我講他講是說其實他們也有系統是針對假設這一個車牌號碼他出現在台北但是同時間也出現在高雄他就不可能說一個車牌號碼出在兩個地方那就一定是有一個車牌是假的"},{"start":16752.859,"end":16773.901,"text":"那他就會把它列為是警示的號碼那一樣的道理嘛現在的做法其實有這樣做而且現在抓到的假車牌大部分就是這個樣子在高速公路上面跑的來那我們上一頁所以部長就應該不會存在說如果說他已經被扣管沒有監管然後他再買原車牌來趴趴走的問題啊"},{"start":16774.982,"end":16793.379,"text":"照理講你不應該出現這個狀況所以我只點出來因為假車牌方方面面包括說你們要講是說要新的車牌要防偽但是你只有明年上市的車牌防偽可是你現有的車牌沒有防偽那還是一樣沒有辦法控管到90%現有在市面上的車牌嗎"},{"start":16793.979,"end":16817.154,"text":"以及道路處罰條例我們是不是應該加重刑責是不是應該沒路車輛等等的我們都應該討論但我是說至少看到問題我們要來處理問題所以部長這可以研議什麼時候能夠告訴國人說你們有進一步的一個動作我們盡快跟執法單位來研議看未來的執法面時間會來研議看要怎麼樣讓它執法的落實更好那我們是不是兩個禮拜開個會可以吧"},{"start":16818.337,"end":16842.204,"text":"跟委員報告一下是不是給公務局一個月的時間因為跟這個委員報告這裡面包括跨機關包括這個一個月內研理相關的辦法用科技的方式來減輕我們警務同仁的一個業務量但是又能夠抓出來假車牌好嗎讓這個公務那個公路局他們趕快去找執法單位好跟警政署來協商開會好"},{"start":16843.544,"end":16859.706,"text":"路政司、公路局、高工局可能都需要好不好來再來請教部長有沒有注意到萬聖節要到了那今天早上北捷有個新聞他講說拒絕泰暴路血腥恐怖者的服裝上大眾運輸工具"},{"start":16860.928,"end":16877.019,"text":"我覺得這個在其他民主國家也有類似我印象中日本然後韓國他幾個部分第一造成恐慌啊譬如說他如果說這個都滿臉是血啦什麼可能會讓人家誤會恐慌大眾運輸那有一些是他的衣服相對來講太暴露"},{"start":16878.64,"end":16890.351,"text":"所以說北捷已經先喊了說大眾運輸如果說萬聖節變裝的話太暴露血腥恐怖者要拒絕在那如果說你還硬要進來的話最高罰7500塊"},{"start":16892.366,"end":16909.988,"text":"那我想請教交通部身為主管機關臺鐵、高鐵以及我們相關單位有沒有要做相關的一個不然有可能他從外縣市做高鐵來臺北可以然後就下了轉成決定不行這樣也有點奇怪啊大眾運輸應該就是要一體啊"},{"start":16911.055,"end":16937.725,"text":"部長您的看法呢委員您提醒的這個我也覺得蠻重要的如果真的太過血腥或者太過暴露或者是大家看了會不舒服的畫面在萬聖節的過程有時候會發生那在公共運輸的運具上面也會造成大家的困擾尤其有時候在之前有發生過一些比較不幸的事件大家會害怕是的我覺得這個確實是應該要討論所以在高鐵跟台鐵的部分我會請他們來研究這個問題因為萬聖節要到了如果我印象沒錯應該是這禮拜嘛"},{"start":16939.125,"end":16952.256,"text":"是所以我們就趕快來研議這個問題而且可能還是要有一個標準不然的話我覺得上有政策下有對策到之後我們第一線的同仁可能也會很難認定到底你的標準是標準還是什麼部分是"},{"start":16953.001,"end":16970.748,"text":"大家認定的部分應該會差不多啦我們也會跟北捷來討論也參考北捷的經驗他的經驗跟他的標準現在北捷已經說了就是他要開罰巨債那其他的大眾運輸我也希望是說我們國家不要說一國多製的概念最後部長一分鐘"},{"start":16972.148,"end":16989.22,"text":"之前葉元智委員有質詢關於太阪輕軌那本席一方面泰山一方面葉元智委員是板橋所以他其實橫跨我跟葉元智委員的選區那我們也都非常的關心尤其我也知道新北市府他送了三次給我們鐵道局但是都被推薦"},{"start":16990.02,"end":17001.908,"text":"那你也承諾說一個月內會召集相關會議包括新北市政府共同來開會我覺得中央要嚴格把關沒有問題但是一次把問題講清楚比如說ABCDEFG讓"},{"start":17003.644,"end":17023.145,"text":"執行單位他們一次把這些疑點釐清再送上來不要說今天講ABC送來然後我退回明天講CD送來我退回一次把它給釐清所以這一個月開會現在開會了嗎報告委員他們的報告還沒有送過來那上次葉元之委員講到現在應該一個月了嗎還沒到"},{"start":17025.527,"end":17051.929,"text":"上一次議員之委員講是說你們一個月內找新北市府的共同來把那個疑點一次講我們已經在約集會議了已經約了是不是部長本期也拜託因為除了太阪輕軌被退三次以外巴黎輕軌也有被退建還有我們包括本期選區裡面我們也希望能夠爭取林口歸山的這個跨縣市的輕軌"},{"start":17053.05,"end":17071.526,"text":"那未來這是不是能夠都比照辦理相關的這種流程我要說要求的是鐵道局一次把疑點給釐清讓地方政府能夠去補相關的一個資料不要說這一次挑三個下一次挑四個那永遠都是在攻防往返啊"},{"start":17072.366,"end":17095.904,"text":"我們一個案一個案來討論但是輕軌建設我們一起努力好不好因為這個真的是不只是市民的期待也是跨縣市的期待也是生活圈更繁榮交通的一個期待好不好部長知道禮拜五你要來本席的淡江大橋來看這個上次我看那邊有一次這是第二次對所以歡迎部長來淡水謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":17100.845,"end":17104.646,"text":"好 謝謝洪委員接下來有請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長數位部嗎那個交通部交通部陳部長"},{"start":17130.68,"end":17155.516,"text":"部長好那省紀部呢日前他有發布了一個2023年臺鐵霧點的次數的一個統計有超過了143萬次那發生的這個發生率呢是達到了兩成多20.4%那所以在這樣的情況之下呢我們看到霧點機率甚至比2022年還要高"},{"start":17157.557,"end":17158.038,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":17168.24,"end":17190.595,"text":"有高於50%所以顯現我們霧點偏高的情況是有需要做檢討的但是當提出了這樣子臺鐵是說部長您注意聽他是說現行國際標準為列車到達終點站要延誤5分鐘以內才被列為準點列車"},{"start":17192.237,"end":17213.291,"text":"但是省紀部以誤點延誤的超過一分鐘來計算所以如此的這樣的一個情況本需要請教部長也就是你認為我們臺鐵這樣的一個情況是不是我們應該要滾動式的檢討去改善它的誤點率請教"},{"start":17214.326,"end":17234.355,"text":"報告委員您所講的這個數據在我上任的第一天臺鐵就跟我說霧點綠的這個時間在國際上是算五分鐘那我第一個感受也會跟您一樣會覺得那也算五分鐘所以我也特別問了說有哪些國家是認定是五分鐘結果我問起來應該是大部分的國家都是絕大部分的國家都是以五分鐘作為霧點綠的計算所以會跟審計部的數字"},{"start":17236.816,"end":17264.117,"text":"有點不太一樣因為他們的目前今年的準點率如果扣掉天災的話應該有到97點多但委員跟你們報告我第一天上任搭臺鐵到台中那一天剛好延遲了5分鐘下車媒體們問的第一個問題就是說部長請問你搭的臺鐵那個延遲5分鐘你什麼感受那我就說嗯那個以他們給我的數據這還算在準點率裡面那天其實是4分鐘不是5分鐘"},{"start":17264.958,"end":17294.06,"text":"那還是算在準點率裡面但我覺得臺鐵還可以再加強因為現在大家搭高鐵搭得很習慣高鐵的時間非常的精準我希望它可以前進到跟高鐵一樣的水準部長還好你一個但還要再加強當然要還好你講這一句不然前面聽的我心驚驚因為我再要給你一個數字政府一直鼓勵我們再減碳那麼政府要鼓勵民眾搭乘這個大眾交通工具呢那推行T-pass"},{"start":17294.941,"end":17321.05,"text":"那政策上錄到現在我們大概有768.8萬人士在加值購買這個通勤月票對不對這是我們政府鼓勵人家的那如果污點那麼高機率那麼高那跟政府的美意他就要打折啦所以你剛才說的我們拿出這個議題民眾是希望讓他能夠便利能夠準時在這樣的一個情況之下我們還是有滾動式檢討"},{"start":17323.251,"end":17328.332,"text":"的空間,對不對?那你們去檢討好不好?那多久時間可以告訴本席呢?你們去檢討你們的方案,你給社會大眾知道你關於T-PASS的就有將近要800萬人,你要讓他們安心啊!好,你什麼時候可以告訴本席?多久時間告訴本席?你的方案怎麼去精準?"},{"start":17348.596,"end":17352.38,"text":"是我們我們沒關係你告訴我時間部長多久時間兩週內兩個禮拜內將我們怎麼樣霧點的距離降低怎麼樣這個時間可以整點的方案精進兩個禮拜內給本席以讓我們大眾運輸的這些乘客他都能夠放心這是政府應當要做的兩個禮拜"},{"start":17370.459,"end":17387.769,"text":"那接下來本席要請教15歲少年那麼開車出車禍了造成三個人死亡這個讓各界大家都引起這個關注未成年無照駕駛的數量平均每一年有多少件部長你看4.3萬件"},{"start":17390.45,"end":17418.046,"text":"那麼我們臺灣現有的罰則那麼僅有罰款、扣車牌那對於整個經濟條件的優異的犯罪者他的懲罰效果是非常的薄弱的而且發生這樣的事情引起社會的嘩然我相信部長你也非常的難過那難過之餘我們政府有什麼樣的因應方案每一年有四萬三千件這最近這五年來的一個統計"},{"start":17419.347,"end":17440.712,"text":"讓我們很憂心所以本席要請教如果以目前的處理方式它是這麼的薄弱那請教部長你是不是認同我國可以無照駕駛的這個法則有檢討的空間有沒有檢討的空間報告委員法則的部分在去年有加重過一次但是現在社會還希望它再繼續加重所以是不是有檢討的空間"},{"start":17443.633,"end":17450.909,"text":"有檢討的空間然後接下來本席要具體跟你建議你應該可以參考日本的做法他加入什麼角質"},{"start":17454.93,"end":17481.446,"text":"輔導措施來降低無照駕駛的發生率這個非常重要因為你再怎麼樣提高它還是發生所以在這樣的情況之下你必須要加入其他的元素參考其他世界各國本局具體建議我提出的是日本的方式加入了腳趾跟輔導措施預防重瘀治療去告訴他們無照你不能開車那麼其他國家還有其他的方式"},{"start":17481.906,"end":17499.56,"text":"你是不是成立一個專案將世界各國無照駕駛的方案怎麼去要去圍堵罰車也好那麼你去做一個專案好嗎這個非常重要多久時間可以告訴我們社會大眾我們來研究一下各國的方案那你大概多久時間可以告訴本席"},{"start":17500.256,"end":17520.891,"text":"一個月的時間好不好一個月內你將世界各國我就已經提出日本給你做參考他們甚至連綠房都加入了我們必須要如此做就正如你說的我們去年提高他還是一樣這樣子生命誠可貴這不行的好不好一個月內提出這個監禁方案最後一個議題大客車國道大型車的事故頻繁"},{"start":17525.254,"end":17541.539,"text":"他不只是生命安全的一個風險他也是財產的一個損失那麼受影響在國道上面車流也會增加我們的社會成本我們經常一整排又停在那邊動彈不擇在這樣的情況之下本席給你數字"},{"start":17542.779,"end":17562.165,"text":"截至今年10月17號開始,我們國道已經發生54件死亡的車禍,大型載重車如大貨車、連結車17件。它的占比是32%,造勢原因是什麼?分心疲勞駕駛,有11件。它這樣子的一個分心疲勞駕駛是占了65%。"},{"start":17565.646,"end":17581.043,"text":"部長你看到這個數字心驚膽跳啊所以在這樣的一個情況之下本市長要請教你交通部應該具體的去有對策來降低我們國道的這個事故你要怎麼做啊"},{"start":17581.682,"end":17610.002,"text":"針對這個議題我們最近也有關注到所以我們有特別請高工局跟公路局針對大型車輛的這個運行的過程當中在監理的手段我們可以做什麼樣的工作可以來減少這樣的可能性發生所以目前已經正在討論當中尤其分心疲勞駕駛這一點非常重要佔了65%所以你就精進這個方案也是給社會大眾了解那多久時間可以告訴本席呢"},{"start":17610.809,"end":17611.77,"text":"王宏威委員不在"},{"start":17630.155,"end":17657.782,"text":"葉元芝委員葉元芝葉元芝委員不在張家俊委員張家俊張家俊委員不在接下來有請蔡易瑜委員發言謝謝主席那是有請我們部長"},{"start":17658.871,"end":17659.193,"text":"交通部陳部長"},{"start":17670.147,"end":17689.023,"text":"部長,想跟你聊一個,雖然是陳情案,不過你過去也是民意代表出身嘛那民意代表在遇到陳情的時候,跟部會溝通難免都會遇到部會有堅持,那我們在陳情的內容跟部會沒有辦法達到很好的一個共識"},{"start":17689.924,"end":17712.042,"text":"那我要舉的這一個就是實質上在去年發生的就是去年在這個南下112年10月的時候就南下68K的地方有一個地方那個國道1啦還要有那個測速照相然後公五密集的有很多大型車輛連結超速"},{"start":17714.526,"end":17741.255,"text":"那超速當然是因為警政署他們的這個測速照相機拍攝起來是超速的但是這些連結車都舉出了他們自己車內的叫做大餅這類大餅就是行車紀錄器這個大餅的行車紀錄器他就是他的速度有跑到哪邊他就會做如實的一個刻畫來可不可以跟著我的那一頁對他就會有如實的這個刻畫"},{"start":17742.608,"end":17754.396,"text":"那後來他的這個行車記錄器呈現的是沒有超速的沒超速結果他就去調GPS調GPS可能是調這個"},{"start":17758.206,"end":17786.625,"text":"ETC或者是吊GPS那後來也都從他的一個間接的一個距離來看起來也不應該有超速因為不是個案,累積起來不差很多所以我就定義大家人口口的然後含交通部警政署的警政署堅持他們的測速照相機沒有問題可是交通部對於自己測試合格的這個行車紀錄器就是大餅"},{"start":17788.308,"end":17793.428,"text":"你們卻沒辦法堅持說你們的勤勞技術是一定百分之百準確"},{"start":17794.972,"end":17823.398,"text":"這樣就不對了如果這個連結車沒有去加裝這個行車紀錄器的話你們是會處罰一萬兩千元以上兩萬四千元以下你要求這都一定要增還不然會處罰可是這個行車器在於說他一旦他被抓到測速的時候抓到超速的時候他要拿出來去證明說他沒有超速你大家說這不採用以警政署的為主"},{"start":17824.637,"end":17826.306,"text":"咦,這樣一看起來,你們交通部真沒錢欸,怎麼這樣?"},{"start":17828.994,"end":17854.441,"text":"來是報告委員我自己這樣聽起來我會覺得對交通部這邊來說應該要對自己的這個記錄器上面的數字要有信心畢竟我們是用這個在監管跟監理大型的車輛的這個所謂用大餅來監管他們的車速跟他們的行車的狀況所以交通部自己本身當然要對這方面的數據要有信心這樣聽起來我是認為說交通部應該要堅持這方面的"},{"start":17855.101,"end":17877.442,"text":"對部長我跟你說這個大餅就是齁為了連結車如果發生事故嘛對不對然後要來證明說確確你有沒有危險駕駛所以這個如果要來證明駕駛人有犯罪的時候哇他是有證據力的喔是啊沒錯阿現在倒過來喔駕駛人要來證明我沒有違規的時候哇沒有證據力是"},{"start":17878.953,"end":17901.85,"text":"我覺得這好納悶而且我還有找我們那個標準局來講標準局也說他很有信心如果是他們標準局檢驗過的行車註書區不會有問題所以這個就存在兩個可能一個就是測速照相機有問題一個就是行車註書有問題因為兩個數據差很多嘛那所以我們左用我國軌道建設執行概況他們左拿ETC當然ETC因為它是間接"},{"start":17903.177,"end":17904.058,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":17934.138,"end":17961.412,"text":"交通部就在大便這個不採納為什麼這個報告委員我覺得這樣聽起來我也認為不合理啦所以讓我回去跟他們瞭解一下為什麼會對自己的數據是部長你可以回去瞭解可是他們會給你一個答案我叫他們去打行政訴訟哇我跟你說很抱歉行政訴訟這些價值人也打輸了也打輸了也打輸了他們就是認為說因為你們自己不堅持你們的大餅有證據力啊是是是"},{"start":17962.291,"end":17985.043,"text":"這個部分我是不是跟委員報一下確實警察機關弄的測速雷達跟這個行車紀錄器這兩個這個速度計算各有精度的一個這個要求那剛剛委員也提到就是說那如果說是在國道上面的話那至少還有一個ETC區間的這個速率可以來那ETC也是證明駕駛人比較合理啊"},{"start":17985.823,"end":18007.846,"text":"對阿在於這個就是說交通違規的處理基本上大概有兩道這個程序第一道先這一個申訴那申訴的這個部分是由處罰機關來對監理所所以你們來這個處理那目前處罰機關的一個處理就是比較相信行政機關相信這一個行政機關的部分那第二道申訴沒有辦法過的時候你講這句話我就不接受阿你相信的是誰的行政機關"},{"start":18008.647,"end":18026.547,"text":"你們相信的是內政部的行政機關你們是不相信你們自己交通部的行政機關我現在就在生氣這一點你知道嗎我剛剛跟委員報告是還沒講完我說第二道就是打這個行政訴訟那其實像這樣子的東西器材精準度的東西應該在第一道申訴制度就要把它處理"},{"start":18027.708,"end":18029.77,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":18058.652,"end":18074.244,"text":"有來的差不多十幾個,但是在一個賴的群組的自救會有六十幾個這些職業駕駛人基本上,他們都很辛苦,因為他們都刮眉毛他白天還要來立法院陳情,基本上是把他們要休息的時間都消化掉了"},{"start":18075.204,"end":18102.403,"text":"但是你也知道現在駕駛人他一旦超速違規對於職業駕駛人來傷害多大甚至有很多企業就說你有你有這樣超速違規一定會替你記點記點下去他就落久的時間他就不能開車我覺得這個議題有檢討的空間這個傷害性是非常的大這裡有檢討的空間對然後我現在很氣憤的就是說當我在協調的時候交通部對於自己的技術的準確性是不堅持的"},{"start":18103.183,"end":18123.089,"text":"所以棄守這一塊直接說那都以車速照相為主這個絕對有檢討的空間啦所以我回去之後會請公路局他們來檢討這件事情建立一個新的處理的機制如果當兩邊的數據不一樣的時候該怎麼處理大家來建立一個機制OK好那對部長那希望這件事再面對一下好謝謝謝謝好謝謝蔡委員"},{"start":18130.329,"end":18159.543,"text":"交通部我來針對這個是真的要好好研究一下因為剛剛蔡委員特別說因為那個大餅上面說什麼日期上面沒有可是現在電腦科技發展到這麼多你怎麼會讓一個駕駛你這個餅放進去就上面就要標註日期是哪一個人開的應該要有一些不是沒有日期他是說他的準確性不夠準確性不夠那就交通部好好研究一下到底準不準"},{"start":18170.659,"end":18183.286,"text":"好好研究給蔡委員跟關心的這個架勢一個答案接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員發言不在蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在接下來有請陳佩瑜委員發言"},{"start":18200.384,"end":18205.448,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請臺鐵董事長謝謝好臺鐵杜董事長好委員好董事長午安快速跟您請教基隆這兩天的案子好那你們已經有說了不會拆會原地保留但是我想要從個案來談通案因為我知道臺鐵自己在重規處底下有成立文資科"},{"start":18227.423,"end":18253.644,"text":"那在你們2022的新聞裡面也有提到說你們會為請很多專家學者甚至結合臺鐵各地的志工盤點相關的文化資產可是屢次只要看到臺鐵跟文資的事情幾乎是有一個新聞事件你們就回應一個新聞事件可是以我縱規這幾年來其實臺鐵對於文資保存這件事情其實我必須說非常的消極"},{"start":18254.625,"end":18280.797,"text":"就算我們現在有了所謂的鐵舶籌備原處它都是跟文化部有關但是臺鐵自己對於現在狹下不管是硬體或是書面資料或者是很多大家對於文資的想像說實話我相信這可能是在臺鐵轉型之後還來不及立刻面對的議題但是時間一直在走這個文資的困境我想董事長你一定心裡面也知道不能等"},{"start":18281.477,"end":18293.485,"text":"因為說實話他可能瞬間沒有了就沒有了但是如果每次只是新聞事件以後被罵完那我會覺得很可惜所以董事長你可不可以在有限的時間裡面給我們一個比較全面的承諾對於現在文資科他要嘛是因為層級太低或者是因為法規範的問題"},{"start":18300.669,"end":18315.724,"text":"或是因為預算不足的問題到底是什麼樣的問題讓臺鐵在文資處理上現在是處於這個狀態那日後我們到底可以怎麼做讓臺鐵的文資這件事情真的可以日後變成臺鐵非常重要的一個亮點"},{"start":18316.59,"end":18336.217,"text":"是那跟委員報告齁其實這個案子來講的話齁他沒有在我們文資科跟企劃處的狹內我知道因為他不在你們的文資名單上對對對那在文資名單上的我們都會依照我們文資科成立的我們還有訂定很多的辦法來去處理"},{"start":18337.097,"end":18349.632,"text":"那這個個案來跟委員報告這個個案是其實原來基隆站的第一跟第二月台等一下那個董事長因為我時間有限我們不要耽誤其他委員的時間我都說我沒有要從這個個案來看我要從個案談通案"},{"start":18352.595,"end":18370.373,"text":"日後臺鐵對於文資保存的態度一個是您所說的他已經在文資的名單上我相信你們會積極的去維護跟保存並且結合專家學者我都相信你們是有這個認知也會有這個態度但是我要談的像基隆這件事情就是因為他不在文資名單上"},{"start":18371.434,"end":18395.607,"text":"但是他在很多專家學者的眼中他是重要的文資那臺鐵對這件事情的態度所以我剛問是因為文資科目前的層級太低導致於他預算不足人力不足或是法規範不足導致於他沒有辦法好好的做文資還是因為我們大家對於文資的態度認知不同還是說這件事情可能根本不在臺鐵這幾年的重要業務內容當中"},{"start":18397.558,"end":18414.457,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個容我講完齁 那個 這個兩個月台基隆兩個月台的這個這個雨棚齁 其實在前面的過程我們都有找這個文化局或者是文資局相關單位專家學者辦過會刊的"},{"start":18415.999,"end":18430.538,"text":"那這個原先有的這些跨數的這個雨棚現在有一部分已經被拆下來保存在基隆市府那邊有一部分被拆下來保留在鐵博館那邊剩下這五塊剩下這五塊在後面"},{"start":18434.022,"end":18456.787,"text":"我們還是很慎重我們有去找文資單位來認定說它是不具文化價值所以才會不在我們文資科或者是企劃處的轄管內那這個部分也跟委員報告了那後面我們如果有這種類似這種就是很有紀念保存價值的東西我們會擴大範圍就是我們還是會慎重以對"},{"start":18460.768,"end":18479.457,"text":"然後盡量能夠在前置作業的時候能夠找到更好的方式來對它做個鑑定看是不是要納到我們的文資保護的這個範圍裡面來執行我剛剛也說我們我們其實在質詢前我們做過功課我們知道你們有文資科我們也知道你們開始列相關名單"},{"start":18480.237,"end":18503.606,"text":"但是我覺得尷尬就是像這樣不在你們名單當中但是也有很多人認為他是有文資價值的如同你剛剛說的你們的所謂全面盤點要開展嗎而這個盤點除了在名單上不在名單上的要不要開始收集大家的意見而一旦收集了意見你們也要開始去採認又要跟縣市地方政府合作所以我剛剛其實有明白的問你們是不是因為預算不夠的問題還是人力不夠的問題"},{"start":18505.587,"end":18527.097,"text":"還是因為相關行政的層級太低導致於董事長您在推行相關業務的時候其實是有遇到困難的我的意思是說立法院絕對支持臺鐵做這樣的事情除了在營業項目然後增加營業額之外讓大家看到臺鐵是一個有能力賺錢的公司但是我們也不要忘記臺灣鐵路文化有非常非常多"},{"start":18527.657,"end":18538.124,"text":"有特色的而且有記憶亮點的事情需要被保存所以我才想請教董事長你如何更全面性的看待這個事情今天我們需要您公開的承諾跟說明這件事情好那各位人報告剛剛講到有關於專責的人力這個我們現在公司已經有在禁用我們的從業人員其實我們禁用從業人員其實我們公司很有靈活度的現在在文資課的同仁就不是以前鐵路特考進來的人"},{"start":18557.877,"end":18580.146,"text":"這裏面有很高學歷而且是專長的我非常開心聽到這個第二個就是預算預算我們公司成立今年開始我們對於文資這個處理的預算我們都有編到我們的一般建築就是我們自己的預算裏面但是我們還有另外一個規劃就是我盤點好以後我們在115年我們會有一個整體計劃我們打算要"},{"start":18585.348,"end":18604.037,"text":"就是跟文化部那邊來做一個合作把整個計畫把它做出來那也希望文化部那邊能提供我們協助好 所以聽起來你們會人力上有增補新的人力並且董事長你的承諾是專業的人力那你們有沒有考慮日後跟專家學者在115這個計畫進行之前辦相關的公聽會或座談會"},{"start":18607.259,"end":18631.47,"text":"因為我剛說一定有很多文資在你們的政策視野中是不在你的想像中但是在專家學者眼中他是有意義的他需要被保留跟需要被討論的是 那個你訂這個計畫是有的好 那我們辦公室也會再持續追蹤我覺得你今天 董事長今天態度非常正向我們也希望後續相關文資議題的討論我們臺鐵可以一直走在這個方向上好 是好 謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":18634.96,"end":18653.937,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭振前委員、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在高金素梅委員、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在接下來有請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":18661.64,"end":18678.752,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛聽陳委員在這個垂詢杜董事長聽了還蠻高興的就臺鐵的文資嘛那我就先請杜董事長部長先休息一下那也請部長聽聽我跟杜董事長的這樣的"},{"start":18686.275,"end":18705.902,"text":"臺鐵局變成臺鐵公司之後,董事長有在文資這一塊確實有做了一個蠻大幅度的調整,來招聘更多的這些更專業、更好的這些人才,來針對臺鐵相關的文資保存歷史建物,來做這樣的一個處理。當然還是要文化部來做協助。那我再請教一下,"},{"start":18707.242,"end":18726.736,"text":"我現在有看到這個古蹟臺南站在修繕臺鐵是預計要11月底絕標嗎?那個11月底絕標是臺南市政府的文資局他協助我們做現況調查的也有臺南市政府、地方政府去協助你們做現況的調查調查的調查對不對?那斗蘭,歷史進入斗蘭火車站勒?"},{"start":18735.476,"end":18744.13,"text":"我要提醒我要提醒董事長齁這個是政前部長現在的正副院長林前部長齁加農兄都有到過地方"},{"start":18745.583,"end":18769.393,"text":"是對那個跟委員報告齁斗南委員剛剛提到的是那個舊站是啊那是舊站啊現在就不用修了我們現在齁有有編列那個修復的經費了我們預計在七千萬七千萬嗎對我們預計在明年的四月明年四月對來公告發包公告發包所以你們系社什麼時候完成"},{"start":18774.212,"end":18776.095,"text":"我特別提到是在鄭前部長的時候就已經到這個地方來了"},{"start":18790.555,"end":18791.736,"text":"臺鐵在整個歷史建物在整個文化資產的一個維護裡面然後進而把它變成一個亮點"},{"start":18807.563,"end":18822.222,"text":"那甚至後來林前部長在另外王前部長也都有在到這地方我們希望這地方串聯整個倉庫的這個整修甚至可以變成一個鐵道文化園區"},{"start":18824.985,"end":18846.519,"text":"圖顯整個台鐵對這個地方的重視而且它不只倉庫聯動的倉庫不只這個舊站體還有一個新站體嘛對不對然後周遭還有蠻多是台鐵的土地所以這個地方要變成一個台鐵的這個陡嵐的鐵道文化園區文化部也支持那我們台鐵局現在的第一步的作為是什麼"},{"start":18848.384,"end":18872.236,"text":"各位委員報告據我的了解現在除了我們這個斗南那個舊站的整修以外其實周遭包括剛剛委員講的倉庫還有一些土地現在應該比較多是屬於那個市政府縣政府的縣政府的所以要成立一個比較大範圍的那個文化園區的一個規劃這個我們應該要跟縣政府一起"},{"start":18876.398,"end":18891.31,"text":"努力啦呃 沒關係啦呃 就規劃的方面 董事長好 那 那到底規劃的第一步有踏出去了嗎也也 不然 不然就這麼講嘛齁你們的第一步是什麼就簡單 明確答我就好了嘿"},{"start":18892.803,"end":18915.941,"text":"這第一步的話當然是要去規劃一下他的範圍啊有了嗎?有規劃了嗎?還沒有,目前還沒有對嘛?對嘛?對,就從鄭前部長現在這位院長一直到林建永部長一直到王國宅部長連王國宅部長都有去我記得當時的杜學長也有去過對不對?我們最後那個地方是屬於你們台北局的"},{"start":18916.758,"end":18942.808,"text":"我們希望走到那一個樓上新站的二樓看過去的那個很大倉庫那也是台鐵局的右邊的土地也是台鐵局的火車站的正對面好像寶雅租的那塊周遭的土地也都是台鐵局的那個腹地何其之大對 那我們經歷過一個文化部長兩個前部長你們到現在規劃的地步都還沒有"},{"start":18944.349,"end":18964.237,"text":"好,這個跟委員報告,這個我回去再趕快我們來進行我們的一個研議啦好了,辦公局長,一個月內給我們一個第一步的計畫好不好第一步,我只要求第一步的計畫,就跨出去的計畫就好初步的一個評估的一個做法啦,設想一個月內嘛,可以吧"},{"start":18965.137,"end":18982.148,"text":"那就代表剛剛杜董事長在答覆陳委員的確實你在這個地方有做調整我相信臺鐵今天要高鐵啦齁要跟高鐵讓消費者有所區別啦齁坦白講臺鐵一定要利用這些文資啦這些文資利用得越精緻啦越到位啦"},{"start":18983.457,"end":18984.018,"text":"臺鐵越花光花熱"},{"start":19000.67,"end":19021.489,"text":"謝謝陳部長這個我們交通部署有報告是這樣臺鐵建設三輪分別110年有5次、113年有3次重大的形成事故那113年一般事故平均42件一場事件平均發生是600餘件那脫落起來就是一般加一場就是642件坦白講平均一天就17.51.75的事故"},{"start":19024.071,"end":19039.659,"text":"我部長部長對這大大小小事故要怎麼如何進行這個檢討這個數字確實是國人看起來不會很滿意所以今天的報告的第一個重點就是說確保安全的部分要先做好第二才是提升服務品質的部分"},{"start":19040.339,"end":19066.531,"text":"所以這個部分其實我看臺鐵有相當多的計畫在處理安全的這個議題那不過我認為橫向的聯繫跟橫向的這個討論可能還不太足夠那這個部分我們正在整合當中安全的部分很多的計畫都在推行有點跌窗架屋然後很多的計畫都有點延宕這個部分我們一項一項拿出來正在檢討跟討論那再來就是它的橫向的部分安全的橫向聯繫的部分幾個系統該怎麼"},{"start":19069.732,"end":19088.653,"text":"連繫起來這個我們也在努力跟他們討論當中好,那個細項很多啦時間關係沒辦法討論對不對,太多了642件,大致上的歸類我也沒有說部長要在這邊討論但部長知道今年的1月到7月這個一般加異常事故已經累積幾件了"},{"start":19089.654,"end":19094.32,"text":"不想知道嗎委員您上面有寫551件551件你看他到1到7月就已經551件現在已經10月了我們手上沒有89的資料顯然已經超越112年的沒錯"},{"start":19107.334,"end":19126.106,"text":"我們認為它的穩定性確實是要加強尤其在公司化之後我們是希望公司化之後效率要提升那如果公司化之後效率又更低那當然是不好那幾個方面要處理一方面就是我剛剛在講的那些計畫要好好的進行第二其實我有發現說臺鐵在近一兩年裡面人才的流失是個問題"},{"start":19127.246,"end":19142.479,"text":"所以這個部分我們也正在努力留才的部分怎麼樣讓他的薪資能提高怎麼樣讓他的工作環境能夠更好讓人才能夠留下來因為臺鐵很多都是技術面的問題那如果人才流動的很快速的話其實對於技術面的保留是不好的"},{"start":19142.899,"end":19162.312,"text":"所以部長知道這是一個核心的問題嘛連監察院都有針對台鐵安全改革執行的這個審核通知事項有去揭露三缺嘛我們台鐵有三缺嘛對不對這三缺很清楚缺信心、缺能力、缺法制然後我知道目前為止借領退休有200多位"},{"start":19163.592,"end":19191.358,"text":"然後特考上的因故位卻者又一百五十幾位這補不進來補不到位然後到時候可能會面臨將近兩千餘人的空缺跟委員報告不是這樣的不是這樣我們估計從公司成立一直到今年的年底我們大約會有包含那個在1月1號優退的包含那個我們在今年的年底大概會有15"},{"start":19192.478,"end":19208.945,"text":"一、五、四、三人來調走或者是退休或者就是離開但是我們從去年的特考一直延續到今年的從業人員考試我們一共進用了一、六、二、三人"},{"start":19209.665,"end":19227.873,"text":"所以人力上是夠的而且我們在年底之前我們還會再禁用722人人力上確定是夠的所以監察院的報告是有問題但是剛剛有一個重點就是新進來的人我們要怎麼樣能夠讓他留得住"},{"start":19228.413,"end":19229.214,"text":"臺鐵的員工都很辛苦"},{"start":19244.267,"end":19265.123,"text":"董事長就是有義務要照顧好他們對不對所以這個缺信心在經常在報告裡面放在第一項這是很恐怖一件事情是不是這些事情我們也不希望一般加那個異常事故會再一直的往上提升改制之後反而說還比去年還更多這個是不是請部長這邊折騰一個月內一個檢討修正報告給我們做參考好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝劉委員"},{"start":19276.496,"end":19300.904,"text":"好接下來有請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在李坤澄委員李坤澄李坤澄委員不在好目前登記質詢委員經與發言完畢做以下決定第一報告及詢答完畢第二委員郵號黃建豪"},{"start":19304.122,"end":19317.669,"text":"前期林建祺所提書面執行列入記錄並刊登公報。第三、委員於執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分,請相關機關競訴與書面答覆。"},{"start":19320.931,"end":19336.762,"text":"謝謝今天所有列席的各個部門現在休息明天早上9點繼續開會明天早上9點部長還是會來嗎?陳部長那黃部長辛苦了我一直推薦結果大家沒有問不能怪我謝謝大家"},{"start":19354.442,"end":19354.762,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16194","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d910ea1e62573b11e0cc1067dc387cc1f6059d4d42a7fce211edf25722ea897d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-23T08:31:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-23T13:24:00+08:00","duration":17534,"影片長度":"04:52:14","委員發言時間":"08:31:46 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午2時9分提言本院巡弦樓一零會議室出席委員萬美玲委員等15人立席委員陳清輝委員等34人立席委員教育部部長鄭映耀率同有關人員請申請主席總署公寓散出專門委員黃子涵主席范昭菊委員云報告事項一宣讀上次會議事錄決定事務確定而教育部部長鄭映耀要演習報告業務概況．並備質詢"},{"start":1741.057,"end":1756.662,"text":"討論事項審查113年對中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案11案本次議程採綜合詢答由委員外門應等33人提出質詢卻因教育部部長正義要及相關人員及其答覆說明另由委員楊瓊應等2人提出書面質詢決議"},{"start":1757.882,"end":1774.332,"text":"一報告及詢談完畢．委員所提順便質詢或相關資料內容揭露並刊登公報。參對委員質詢．要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．請相關機關建訴以順便答覆。四113年度將政府總預算．有關交易部主管預算解凍案11案審查完畢．均準以動之提報約會．通過臨時提案三項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1781.825,"end":1803.757,"text":"現在在場還沒有三位委員等一下我們等人數足夠的時候再來確定議事錄今天的議程我們是邀請到文化部的李遠部長來列席報告業務概況．並備質詢首先我來介紹一下我們在場的委員接著我來介紹與會的官員我們在場洪孟楷委員"},{"start":1808.548,"end":1832.063,"text":"接下來我來介紹與會的官員．文化部李遠部長．李敬惠政務次長．王詩思政務次長．徐怡君常務次長．祖密陳登清．文化部綜合規劃司魏秋怡司長．文化資源司林弘毅司長．"},{"start":1833.598,"end":1858.777,"text":"文創發展司江青松司長影視及流行音樂發展司吳怡璇司長人文及出版司楊亭真司長藝術發展司陳雅津司長文化．對不起喔周雅津喔對不起好周雅津司長然後文化交流司紀東陽司長蒙藏文化中心高玉珍主任"},{"start":1860.12,"end":1868.263,"text":"人事處劉燦慶處長主計處劉明京處長資訊處莊順清處長文化資產局陳記銘局長影視及流行音樂產業局王淑芳局長國立傳統藝術中心主任陳月宜主任"},{"start":1883.328,"end":1908.529,"text":"國父紀念館館長王蘭生館長中正紀念堂管理處代理處長張惠珠國立歷史博物館代理館長王逸群國立台灣美術館館長陳礦儀國立台灣工藝研發中心主任陳電理台灣博物館館長洪世祐國立台灣史前文化博物館館長蔡正良"},{"start":1910.23,"end":1936.752,"text":"國立台灣交響樂團團長劉玄勇國立台灣歷史博物館館長張龍志國立台灣文學館館長陳盈芳國家人權博物館館長洪世芳國家鐵道博物館籌備處主任鄭明璋國家格同未來館籌備處主任曾聰邦"},{"start":1940.088,"end":1964.697,"text":"行政法人國家表演藝術中心主秘郭美娟行政法人文化內容策進會董事長蔡家俊行政法人國家電影及視聽文化中心董事長楚明仁財團法人公共電視文化事業基金會董事長胡元輝好都介紹到了好"},{"start":1968.757,"end":1982.404,"text":"現在我們請李遠部長來進行報告時間6分鐘主席各位委員各位先進大家好"},{"start":1983.946,"end":2001.224,"text":"今天站在這邊是我來這個位置已經五個月了跟上一次來這邊的差別是我看到台下這些我的夥伴我全部都認識了而且這五個月我們天天密集的開會討論就是今天我要跟各位報告的就是我們這五個月來我跟我們的同事密集討論的"},{"start":2002.245,"end":2028.604,"text":"我來自文化的產業界所以我一路走來不斷的參與這個文化產業的過程我自己在這5個月內也不斷的參與看表演看電影像昨天晚上我還跑去看電影看了很晚這樣我想用我自己親自參與每一個產業包括表演藝術包括電影包括視覺藝術包括漫畫包括一切一切希望了解產業大家的意見"},{"start":2029.946,"end":2049.227,"text":"我盤點了整個這些年的成果就是在我之前很多部長做了很多成果經過密集討論我想提出12項沃土計畫我提出12項沃土計畫透過資源整合跟加成來翻動並且對台灣的這塊文化土地"},{"start":2051.307,"end":2071.443,"text":"讓生長在這期的文化產業更加瞄準也算是我對我自己個人的KPI首先我第一個就是向下扎根因為台灣教改已經30年了我為了要培養下一代根據創造力跟人文關懷還有文化素養跟自我認同的下一代"},{"start":2072.364,"end":2090.521,"text":"我我們將文化幣降到13到15歲來試辦另外一個很很大的重要的就是小公司的兒童節目的製作另外我也推出一個兒童繪本作家的一個一個徵求30位繪本作家用一年的時間訓練他們產生作品"},{"start":2093.624,"end":2111.841,"text":"另外我們增加一個臺灣國際兒童兒少書展找回臺灣兒童兒少藝術文化教育的最後一塊拼圖緊接著我們要打造100個文化基地因為臺灣有獨特的地理環境讓大家隨時體驗多樣的生態和文化"},{"start":2112.884,"end":2135.483,"text":"主要是30年前台灣的社區總體營造到後來的地方創生還有這幾年來政府投了很多資源在地方經濟生態觀光跟文化教育在30年來我個人都參與這些活動所以我希望在此時此刻能夠藉由打造100個文化基地讓大家共創共享共榮其實"},{"start":2137.25,"end":2148.645,"text":"我會要做這個文化基地的原因就是希望中央跟地方合作然後部會跟部會合作還有我們自己內部文化部的部門跟部門合作好"},{"start":2149.98,"end":2176.036,"text":"回歸到影視產業我希望能夠打造台灣影視產業在國際舞台發光發亮示弱了20年最近這一年我們在國際上開始得獎不管是東京影展也好釜山影展也好這些都在20年前沒有發生過的我們將加強投資輔導跨國的合作加速的培養年輕新秀強化輔導國片參與國際影展"},{"start":2178.437,"end":2195.94,"text":"還有擴大國際的布局還有我覺得台灣最可貴是民間影視工作者的強大生命力我們共創台流經濟的龍頭產業在流行音樂方面我覺得台灣是華語世界最能夠自由創作的國家"},{"start":2196.681,"end":2225.6,"text":"台灣有各類型的音樂創作還有許多創作力豐沛的獨立樂團在目前獨立樂團算是在亞洲台灣具有優勢的我們將會從這個地方出發希望我們將國際市場為目標持續支持流行音樂最近有個我們要辦一個精英獎就可以看出來台灣在流行音樂嘻哈或者是電音爵士流行民謠方面都各有很優秀的表現"},{"start":2226.821,"end":2244.43,"text":"回到出版產業作為故事性內容創作的源頭我們出版業的蓬勃跟作家們的創造能力絕對是一個國家在文化盛衰的關鍵指標我個人也是來自出版我也寫了很多書所以我了解到這個行業非常重要"},{"start":2245.35,"end":2263.949,"text":"我們文化幣有40%以上最後流入出版界這對出版界是一個很大的預注所以我們除了要加大文化幣的投入之外也要支持台灣原創作品的產製跨域IP的創造並且強化國際市場提供創作者更好的環境"},{"start":2264.75,"end":2278.977,"text":"最近這一年我們已經支持大量台灣文學家去世界各地進行交流並且大量翻譯他們的作品希望台灣文學能夠受到國際重視追上日本和韓國最近遇到"},{"start":2280.66,"end":2302.597,"text":"拜新德總統問我說台灣會不會有諾貝爾獎文學得主我說只要多給我們一些錢多翻譯作品我們很快就有了在演藝藝術方面我們有多元的表演藝術我也會在這方面加強我們的補助然後像勸世三姊妹在2025年就是會1月就要去紐約百老匯三演"},{"start":2303.317,"end":2319.469,"text":"在視覺藝術方面各位可以看到李曼莉老師在臺北北師美術策展戰鬥之城中非常的熱門人潮爆滿你可以看到臺灣這方面的前衛藝術視覺藝術是很有希望的"},{"start":2320.936,"end":2346.391,"text":"在動畫跟漫畫方面這又是一個高潮我們最近推出漫畫不打烊啟動為期3年的新臺漫時代機器培養人才希望臺灣的漫畫家可以創造SUPER IP希望2027年我們可以辦理第一屆臺灣國際漫畫節好那剩下的我就行可以嗎可以齁"},{"start":2348.877,"end":2376.317,"text":"在文化輸出和文化交流方面因為台灣近年來因為地緣政治高科技產業受到世界關注我們要把握這個難得的關鍵時刻用文化讓世界認識台灣積極向全世界輸出台灣的文化進行深度交流我們也會跨部會合作在歐洲美洲亞太三大區區用不同的策略落實文化外交另外我們的"},{"start":2377.557,"end":2396.07,"text":"我們也會已經在前段計畫之下重新整建臺灣藝術史捲動民間大量投資所以我們所有的投資都是希望能夠捲動民間的資金來到我們這個文化產業以上就是我的12項沃土計畫我希望"},{"start":2399.827,"end":2421.895,"text":"以上的這個沃土計畫能夠落實在我的施政目標10月17號是臺灣文化日也就是100多年前蔣渭水成立了臺灣文化協會想保留臺灣的文化在日本殖民時代所以我有一個理想就是天天都是文化日人人都是文化人的理想在我任內可以實現謝謝"},{"start":2427.829,"end":2440.361,"text":"好 謝謝部長那現在再介紹一下我們林倩熙委員到現場我們在場委員以達山人我們來確定一下上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處有沒有沒有好那沒有我們就議事錄確定"},{"start":2449.647,"end":2471.282,"text":"接下來我們要開始進行尋答每位出席委員尋答時間8分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記時間截止為今天上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案提出請於上午10點半之前提出來並與本會委員範圍質詢結束之後來進行臨時提案的處理"},{"start":2476.545,"end":2485.235,"text":"處理臨時提案時：如果提案的委員：跟聯署的委員：均不在場：原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位林倩熙委員質詢部長別急"},{"start":2499.616,"end":2511.8,"text":"主席還有各位立委員同仁謝謝稍微還有今天我們行政單位的各位夥伴們大家好我們現在有請李部長好我們有請李部長委員好部長好部長我們請下一頁"},{"start":2524.253,"end":2536.801,"text":"記得上個禮拜在院會質詢的時候本席提出這句話只有走不出歷史的人才會在文化威權中療傷請問一下部長林靜德當時給我的回應是什麼嗎我覺得我們要面對歷史不要忘記歷史大家能夠真實的面對我們歷史的傷痛才能讓我們的仇恨翻頁"},{"start":2550.226,"end":2571.742,"text":"謝謝我應該在上個會期聽到過應該您上個禮拜在回應我這句話的時候時間上可能沒有辦法把這個話記錄進去其實您只是很簡單的說說得很好那這個禮拜您有一些延伸所以我們就從您剛才所講的部分繼續下去那我們應該"},{"start":2573.203,"end":2601.336,"text":"翻頁往下一個部分開始走了那您剛才在講到這個希望天天都是文化日人人人都是文化人我自己本身覺得現在就已經是了所以在您講了這句話之後呢我也很期待未來我們在這樣子的一個基礎下能夠再往前走好謝謝所以今天本席要來跟您再探討我關於上個禮拜跟這個禮拜跟未來本席會注意的議題好那上個禮拜包括剛才"},{"start":2602.847,"end":2621.225,"text":"部長也有講到在我們面對過去的歷史應該翻頁您也知道在上個禮拜您也講到在全台灣的這個文化面其實很多元所以本席在這邊要來跟您再討論記得本席上個禮拜提出人權博物館的一些數據相信您應該是有記得"},{"start":2622.186,"end":2648.66,"text":"人權博物館的展對我記得那有一些數據嘛那我們知道這個白色恐怖的展大概至少一半以上62.5然後你們的出版品大概有接近70都是白色恐怖您在當時也覺得那台灣的族群多元那展覽在各個歷史的時期都應該被涵蓋但是本席的查詢人權博物館在10月份的展出8個裡面還是7個跟白色恐怖時期有關的"},{"start":2649.62,"end":2657.363,"text":"看起來還沒有跳脫出歷史的選擇跟還沒有擴大歷史時期的範圍那部長您對於這個部分的看法謝謝委員給我機會回答其實白色恐怖這樣一個名詞在台灣歷史上是一個漫長而非常複雜的時期"},{"start":2668.186,"end":2668.206,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":2694.58,"end":2715.36,"text":"那是不是可以請您說明一下在這個展的部分我們好因為我們這個人權博物館當初的選擇那個地址正好就是白色恐怖所發生的地方所以我們就選擇了比較接近白色恐怖的所發生的事情好謝謝部長那在人權博物館現在你們的空間範圍有哪一些"},{"start":2716.144,"end":2718.607,"text":"我們空間範圍裡面是原來那些當年在這個空間裡面所有的逮捕跟審問我們保持原來的樣子他是一個把過去的文化資產再做轉換的一個場面重新整修 請問一下 那我直接問啦 你們綠島"},{"start":2733.151,"end":2734.432,"text":"綠島工程原區還是繼續在進行修復中?有我們會修正"},{"start":2754.06,"end":2768.152,"text":"假設你們已經把綠島你們目前連工程都發不出去那在景美就成為一個重鎮那本席所提到的這個問題請問您該怎麼處理您是他直接就叫白色恐怖園區還是他是人權博物館"},{"start":2768.956,"end":2785.784,"text":"那個請你給我一點時間回答我有兩點要重新藉這個地方重新要很認真的回答第一白色恐怖受害者包括各種族群外省人本省人原住民都是在白色恐怖中受害只有壓迫者跟被壓迫者跟"},{"start":2787.205,"end":2799.012,"text":"你還是一直回到白色恐怖嘛那你上個禮拜不是談到每一個台灣的歷史時期除非我們對歷史時期的認知不一樣歷史時期不是只有這幾十年所以我想請教一下那日本人對我們的壓迫"},{"start":2800.728,"end":2829.239,"text":"您認同嗎?您看看那個聽海勇就是講日本對我們的破壞他怎麼樣殘忍的白色恐怖跟這個博物館我們還有228紀念館他每一個地方都在懷念不同的歷史不好意思部長本席記得上個禮拜也跟您講過您說的話本席經常在聽也有感動但是本席從這半年來一直感覺到您言行不一所以本席這邊直接的建議"},{"start":2831.055,"end":2840.889,"text":"人權不管不是每一個展都不好但是請你們擴大展覽的概念不要再繼續鎖定在白色恐怖您可以給本席一個promise嗎一個承諾"},{"start":2843.019,"end":2858.408,"text":"從11月開始或至少明年開始11月在展示的部分可以跳脫這樣一個範圍嗎可以你再給我一點時間我個人那我給你一點時間去因為那個人權博物館的法律師因為他是威權時代的那個白色恐怖其實我來之後就跟人權博物館的館長講我們要多辦一些人權營長包括校園霸凌兩性性別歧視"},{"start":2872.856,"end":2889.59,"text":"謝謝謝謝部長那記得您現在所講的話那半年以後我們再來檢視那11月就應該要有一些調整了那接下來本席跟您談一下這個文化幣的部分文化幣你們的緣起是因為疫情的觸動所以但是"},{"start":2893.473,"end":2911.174,"text":"我相信你們有調查文化幣大概會取決於一些特定文化跟商家所以第一個部分本期要跟你談城鄉的差距所以在文化幣你們的調查當中呢在2022年這個數據是總共使用的商家有7萬多家但是八成在六都"},{"start":2912.366,"end":2923.588,"text":"這個比例還有整個商家的數量大概79九點多快八成所以這個議題產生出來的文化差距請問一下部長您這個部分怎麼處理"},{"start":2924.642,"end":2945.49,"text":"其實委員你講到重點了因為我們的人口還有文化的享用都是集中在六都所以當我們開始發文化幣的時候的確是在這個六都裡面使用率跟引用率最多那在全世界的國家歐洲國家它的使用率更低是因為它的傳播率更少"},{"start":2946.671,"end":2962.306,"text":"這是別的國家的事啦對可是台灣已經算是理用率跟引用率是非常高的國家是的使用率高那本席這邊要來跟您做一個討論所以我們接下來第一個城鄉差距請您給本席一個很具體的回應"},{"start":2962.847,"end":2983.324,"text":"因為每一次的質詢你好像都聽得懂但是做出來的事情跟我們都相差十萬八千里所以請你在這個部分能夠給本席很具體的一個回應書面好嗎?接下來您剛才講到文化幣想要向下示範13到15歲但是文化幣就我們的調查還有你們相關的這個數據其實買書的書店出版業有3.38億的消費額占整體消費額的百分之幾乎50"},{"start":2990.39,"end":3006.017,"text":"那我們也發現使用最多的其實是碩博士的一個年齡層你現在13到15本席在這邊具體的建議請你往上升到22到25請你做一個思考給本席一個最比較具體的回應好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":3008.558,"end":3034.711,"text":"接下來本席跟您談一下表演藝術跟文化資產的一個結合那我相信您應該看過表演藝術在文化資產的場域有一些結合的case不曉得您有什麼樣的概念要跟本席回應一下嗎我們對台灣的表演藝術的定義很多除了戲劇你知道有什麼樣的例子在台灣目前表演藝術跟文化資產結合嗎"},{"start":3036.124,"end":3037.085,"text":"表演藝術與文化資產結合"},{"start":3066.304,"end":3083.594,"text":"所以接下來本期就有個建議這個你們的業務報告裡面有談到原住民的區塊當然你們要建置原住民的一個文化資產的概念但是你們在今年也談到有一些文化活動其實你們過去也辦過幾場那今年是你們標榜的臺灣臺南400年那請問你知道2026是什麼樣子的哪邊的400年嗎"},{"start":3092.441,"end":3100.105,"text":"台灣當然是一個南島民族開始的幾千年那是我們最珍貴的最珍貴的資產那如果我們對歷史時期的認知同樣的話2026是台灣進入大安海時代開始被西方人發現"},{"start":3108.809,"end":3135.056,"text":"但是西班牙人 發現可能更早了部長我這邊直接講了2026是西班牙人來台400周年你們是不是應該從明年就開始準備一下這件事情讓我們知道2026年台灣很早就已經要進今年已經要進大航海時期了那2026年也是一個很重要的里程碑最後有關於文化資產文化景觀的這個部分待會我們在交通部要討論文化資產跟鐵道"},{"start":3137.807,"end":3140.609,"text":"台灣現在唯一一個煤礦博物館你知道在哪嗎?"},{"start":3155.017,"end":3175.247,"text":"在那個瑞芳那邊對瑞芳地區那本席這邊跟你講一下有一個新平溪煤礦博物館在暑假這段期間大家一直在搶救他為什麼呢因為國土計劃法要施行了這是一個全面性的問題可是衝擊到的是文化資產所以也請您注意到這是一個"},{"start":3176.027,"end":3203.721,"text":"目前還一直存在的在現地的一個遺址他還不是遺址喔我們還可以繼續讓他活化所以請關注目前鐵道在過往歷史裡面重要的角色包括煤礦包括台灣的許多礦林業等等那我想待會我們會在更深入的討論在交通委員會但是請部裡面注意一下這件事情好嗎會我會把這個納入我們的文化部分"},{"start":3204.526,"end":3211.053,"text":"好謝謝部長好謝謝林倩琦委員的質詢部長請回那接下來我們有請洪孟楷委員好主席謝謝麻煩請李遠部長好我們有請李遠部長"},{"start":3229.983,"end":3241.907,"text":"阿公部長很關心向下扎根的議題十二項沃土計畫其中第一個就是向下扎根我先請教一個上個禮拜我們教育文化委員會由另外一位召委有開這個公聽會"},{"start":3243.847,"end":3265.942,"text":"討論的就是手機校園裡面的限制管理的一個方向那很多人會講啊就如同您的一個報告裡面講3C產品的盛行讓兒少漸漸失去閱讀的習慣等等所以你希望能夠再重拾閱讀的能力請教文化部長那您認為手機在校園裡面應該更禁止或是如同現在一樣"},{"start":3267.348,"end":3295.258,"text":"這個部分好像應該教育部部長來回答但是我個人覺得我們只能繼續開發讓小朋友可以去做別的事情的項目比如說剛剛講到閱讀比如說旅遊我剛剛講一百大基地也好我們推出繪本也好或者是辦那個故事也故事說也好就是想把小孩子拉出三四一產品的那個範圍我們甚至於用科技跟文化來證明用三四一產品"},{"start":3296.218,"end":3310.271,"text":"對於小孩子的腦部的改變然後他在藝術享用中他腦部的改變希望有這個報告出來提醒父母親說這兩者的差別在哪裡所以會有現在做這樣的研究嗎"},{"start":3311.314,"end":3337.953,"text":"我們正在進行一些跟國會會的一些申請是是最後能夠提出一個這個就是本席上一個禮拜在公聽會講的我說除了我們大人認為說現在可能手機會有影響學習或是影響專注力以及在手機上面可能會有一些交友的一些陷阱等等以外其實更重要的是要拿數據說話所以現在我們看到說歐美有一些國家是已經禁止了"},{"start":3338.493,"end":3365.861,"text":"校園不用手機那我也要求是說上禮拜其實這不是只有教育部的工作因為上禮拜我們文化部我記得是次長還是我們司長也有來列席就代表這其實教育文化都應該要一體的所以其實部長今天本席是希望能夠讓你更多的理念的宣傳告訴大家是說其實除了手機這個3.5吋4吋的一個螢幕以外世界還有更大的一個"},{"start":3366.821,"end":3368.782,"text":"這點很簡單就只要國科會願意支持我們的話"},{"start":3395.52,"end":3396.223,"text":"文化部今年預算多少錢?"},{"start":3400.902,"end":3426.512,"text":"目前編列300億300億300億裡面的然後300億我們沒有任何的300億我們還要拜託一個國科會國科會今年預算多少錢我們的我們的300億裡面就部長你這樣子感覺很不勇於認識我現在是肯定你的肯定你的想法但是我們現在是希望是說如果說文化部願意來做就像你講的山西產品盛期失去閱讀習慣不喜歡與大自然為伍"},{"start":3427.392,"end":3436.665,"text":"你的客觀是你客主觀論述還是客觀事實總是有個研究出來讓國人更加了解啊部長"},{"start":3439.687,"end":3464.876,"text":"好,那我就回答你,我們自己來想辦法好了自己來做因為你剛才講說我們的文化預算很高必須跟你解釋300億裡面大概有三分之一是工程然後三分之...其實我們用的錢不多了解啦,說實在話我們都很了解,而且文化部的預算其實今年也已經大幅提升了啦來,部長,第二個部分本席看到這個影劇"},{"start":3466.055,"end":3480.198,"text":"影視我也很認同說我們文化部要來推動影劇影視但是我跟很多的這些影劇影視的好朋友在溝通聊天發覺說現在現象是文化部有照顧到前面拍攝的部分"},{"start":3481.343,"end":3500.531,"text":"拍攝我們人才燈光音響導演編劇我們的人才都不錯但是很多狀況變成是拍攝出來之後的劇沒有管道通路能夠上架能夠被大家看到我們就講現在國際上的這個串流平台大的平台"},{"start":3501.731,"end":3519.986,"text":"11月又要有一個串流平台也要再登陸台灣嘛對不對而新聞報導講是說強勢進攻阿把哈利波特把慾望城市要帶進來強勢進攻那一樣我們的台劇或是電影能不能也強勢回公"},{"start":3521.158,"end":3546.01,"text":"部長知不知道現在現在最多人使用的串流平台Netflix一年購買我們差不多多少個台劇他買台劇有兩個方式一個是買全球的版權是如果能夠取得全球版權的購買大概就可以成本就可以回來他如果是買台灣的劇的話是買台灣版權的話其實是不夠的他至於他一個買多少你知道他買多少我不知道最後數字我不曉得是"},{"start":3546.79,"end":3574.197,"text":"就我的了解啊Netflix一年啊可能真真正正授權買的差不多四部而已買全球版權是那剩下的我們一年製作多少台劇Netflix可能輕點看上的四部Disney Plus可能更低HBO Max現在還沒有上所以說還不知道但部長現在我就要跟你來討論怎麼樣能夠push我們這些串流平台通路"},{"start":3575.097,"end":3575.217,"text":"我非常謝謝委員問這個問題因為"},{"start":3587.452,"end":3612.178,"text":"的確我們的台灣的那個串流平台如果控制在國外的這個手上的話我們台灣的巨真的出不去那現在我們如果我爭取到這個下一個100億其實我就是想做這件事我想跟台灣先解決三大那個電信業者我們來合組基金其中有一個中華電信我們已經談了快一年"},{"start":3613.118,"end":3639.66,"text":"最近接近快要完成了那他是第一個我們跟中華電信成立大概30億的這個基金由他們來操盤目的就是我們說服台灣三大電信業者原來不覺得投資文化內容是有意義的因為他本身的收入用文化內容來講他可能還是賠錢的但是我們說服他們說文化內容如果做出來成功的話"},{"start":3640.12,"end":3640.4,"text":"本席過去常講"},{"start":3656.733,"end":3672.391,"text":"不要認為是說我們自己內部的本土平台即便做了也都是買外國的戲劇來播放那這樣子就會變什麼就很像是我們過去看這個有線電視也是一樣到最後都是買國外的這影片來播放是一樣的道理嘛"},{"start":3672.931,"end":3688.167,"text":"但是另外一個部分現行我覺得你分兩個層面部長因為這是比較龐大的議題但是我一定要把我們立場講清楚另外一個部分現行串流平台上面我們能夠怎麼樣來協助幫忙把他們有更多誘因讓他們能夠多"},{"start":3689.088,"end":3703.054,"text":"不管是購買也好不管是多吸納也好因為其實串流平台對他們來講他們放上那個空間沒有問題啊甚至有沒有可能跟串流平台談能夠先把這些好的影星作品放上然後之後靠點閱還是靠什麼來做這個回收"},{"start":3706.115,"end":3725.552,"text":"我覺得這都是可能文化部可以來去做媒合跟串接的讓多一點台劇台影能夠上串流平台讓全世界能看到部長有沒有辦法好其實我們過去沒有去補助平台這個項目我沒有說要補助平台我現在講的是說怎麼樣跟平台來溝通讓"},{"start":3727.543,"end":3753.488,"text":"每一盒或者是有一個什麼樣的誘因其實我們有雙管齊下就是第一個我們必須要把我們的台劇那個品質要提高到別人接受至少跟日韓可以競爭第二個我們要擁有平台那平台我們上架以後我們如果去推廣他這部分是我心裡最著急所以為什麼我一上任之後我就去找國防會的主委拜託一定要給我下一個"},{"start":3754.248,"end":3771.894,"text":"部長這個部分我們之後再討論但是對於影視行業好的作品跟好的通路都要一起兼顧來第三個部分黑神話悟空這一個電動國安體系有講說這個是對岸對台灣的文化統戰"},{"start":3773.427,"end":3801.298,"text":"我想已經講到你的專業的文化統戰那我們講說只要有人好像網路上講說有人質疑這個就是中共同路人部長贊成國安會這樣子的一個評估嗎?國安單位評估嗎?你問的也非常好其實我不太清楚國安會的完整描述那對我來講黑悟空跟中華文化是因為中華文化才使得黑悟空大賣嗎?黑神話悟空啦神話悟空我真的不懂因為我也沒看你也沒玩但是你用那個"},{"start":3802.398,"end":3805.42,"text":"臺灣的玩家可以在我們的平台上面可以玩到可以買到了那會不會你會擔心說很多臺灣的玩家去玩黑神話悟空被統戰"},{"start":3827.028,"end":3841.858,"text":"拜託看內容阿 有的時候他玩得很好玩 裡面如果百姓思想我覺得文化裡面最可怕的是思想因為台灣是民主制度 我們反而開放的讓大家進來部長您到底知不知道黑神話悟空在玩什麼或是我不知道阿"},{"start":3843.679,"end":3868.638,"text":"這樣比較不好討論啦不過沒關係因為部長我覺得這個就是一樣嘛就是說你是個文化人我想要問的是國安單位說這是文化統戰結果我們自己文化部完全沒有警覺或是沒有去思考說欸有人文化統戰了我們要不要去了解研究或是學習結果沒有想到部長到現在誇誇其詞但是一問三不知不知道內容是什麼那不過部長我再請教上個禮拜金鐘獎頒獎"},{"start":3872.261,"end":3874.123,"text":"他希望能夠有下一個宏願部長知道是什麼嗎?"},{"start":3893.649,"end":3911.43,"text":"我忘了因為我跟吳宗憲非常熟他是綜藝節目的大佬是他講的東西都很有趣但是我忘了他又講我記得可是我現在忘了OK他說金鐘獎希望能夠納入華語節目讓金鐘更大更久部長認同這句話嗎你講這個就很像當年金馬獎"},{"start":3913.672,"end":3915.714,"text":"我先請教你認同吳宗憲主持人這一段話嗎?我覺得要看那個比賽規則因為大量引進華語的話我們本身的那個"},{"start":3930.37,"end":3941.413,"text":"所以我們可以怎麼做我先問你認不認同納入全部華語節目這一句話我們再來討論執行面你現在要先講執行面那我們就很難討論下去我為什麼要在金馬獎一定要開放華語呢我們當年金馬獎就是開放華語之後有很長一段時間我們金馬獎是被香港跟華語佔領台灣電影幾乎沒有空間後來是靠我們2008年海角七號起來之後比較爭氣一點點"},{"start":3958.217,"end":3984.017,"text":"那後來中國大陸的電影自己要撤退以後我們自己很爭氣啊所以重點第一是金鐘如果我們很爭氣開放是沒有問題的是不是我們很爭氣開放就像吳宗憲他的最佳人氣綜藝節目吳宗憲他的主持也常被對岸邀請去啊他也有去對岸不管是參加來賓或是當主持啊但不管怎麼樣如果說我們的金鐘是"},{"start":3985.356,"end":3985.596,"text":"我現在只想部長"},{"start":4009.417,"end":4020.162,"text":"不用這樣氣急敗壞我們文化人喔真的因為我一開始有講你72歲文化阿公部長我很尊重因為我認識吳宗憲阿因為已經超過三分半我們也希望既然如此我們文化部有更高的宏願更高的想像更強的自信面對任何的文化我們可以去輸出我想後續我們請文化部再給洪孟楷委員這個詳細的報告說明喔謝謝"},{"start":4040.496,"end":4040.836,"text":"科智恩委員"},{"start":4054.811,"end":4072.307,"text":"我是金鐘獎第23屆的最佳節目主持人恭喜過去的歷史了所以我那時候在拿金鐘獎的時候我從來沒想過我們到底要跟誰來競爭因為那個時候的金鐘獎所得到的至高無上的榮譽就代表我們的影視文化的確是被推到最高峰"},{"start":4073.808,"end":4078.45,"text":"謝謝你不過我還是要回饋一下剛剛你提到的也是孟凱講的這個有關於這個網路成癮的事實上我是學認知心理學的我當然可以鼓勵你去做這樣的研究不過我還是最終一個部分裡面來說根據兩個孩子的媽也接觸這麼多年輕學子說實在的手機3C產品最能夠對抗的"},{"start":4096.015,"end":4126.015,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4126.415,"end":4126.695,"text":"李遠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":4147.984,"end":4154.41,"text":"今天第一個就是要問你有關黃牛票的這個部分說實在的你認為目前來說即使你們修的法你覺得可以打敗黃牛嗎你目前來自你們的檢舉成案和採取的這個數字部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":4163.58,"end":4180.145,"text":"清楚的數字我們一直在增加中但是打敗環流這個齁對說句實話我們這個文化部的部門裡面真的能夠去做抓環流跟這個這個這個太有限了對不但有限而且做到大家都不要做一直換人來做"},{"start":4180.265,"end":4188.229,"text":"是 因為我也問過刑事 因為我再問你 是 因為刑事局警方也說光是抓詐騙就已經分身乏術了還抓到你黃牛 所以你看看嘛家教轉秀目前來說這檢舉的部分是達到2100但是不正的方法必須用這個機器人等等這些方式說實在的很難抓得到即使呢你們過去社會法當然很離譜啊不到兩萬但是你們現在雖然文創法"},{"start":4208.9,"end":4211.681,"text":"稍後來希望通過重罰來抵擋這樣子的黃牛但是成效也很差為什麼機器人一進來你們設了一個網站但是黃牛還是很猖獗部長你了解嗎因為你看看我們上次在我們高雄辦的這個Black Pink"},{"start":4224.688,"end":4225.108,"text":"我們其實用各種方式"},{"start":4251.86,"end":4279.277,"text":"我告訴你這個東西還是沒有辦法因為現在有太多人問我這些票到底是如何所以呢違反這個文創法移送的案件非常的少部長你知道到目前為止有多少嗎不曉得欸10件不到所以說嘛你說這重罰有什麼用說到重罰又沒有辦法達得到我記得我們才罰了75件欸沒有你現在成案75件大概罰了529萬這樣子但是這個部分我就跟你講嘛BLACKPINK就可以賺到2000多萬你現在只有300萬"},{"start":4281.778,"end":4297.905,"text":"來罰款的話是完全沒有辦法的所以我告訴你這個然後你剛又承認文化部的確是人數各方面是沒有辦法而且那時候你制定的時候呢還是非常的一個鼓勵性質非強制性質所以目前為止有多少單位跟你申請這樣子一個補助因為你們那時候獎勵嘛你知道有多少單位嗎"},{"start":4301.843,"end":4305.467,"text":"你說補助什麼沒有啊就是你當初的補助要點啊你這樣是補助嘛你演唱會的實名制嘛你認為實名制我們認為實名制是惡者的方法但是呢你會發現有多少人跟你來補助你以為那是獎勵嗎不是獎勵大家不願意啊對啊不願意嘛為什麼你看下面嘛"},{"start":4317.598,"end":4324.359,"text":"太難了嘛人力時間金錢嘛而且你看要光是要兩三個小時而且你要購入好幾萬的這樣機台所以這個部分是很難去說服你這個主辦購票單位裡面來去做這樣的處理所以我想因為我時間有限我還是請部長你可以參考一下其他國家的日本的抽選制韓國的統一票價還有美國的一些方法這些都是提供大家來做參考否則我們逛市去抓真的是抓不勝抓好不好這是部長你可以來提醒的"},{"start":4347.364,"end":4370.353,"text":"第二個我們來看看文化部最被詬病的就是應該說不是最被詬病就是大家希望我們得到的補助是公平的是非常公平的這個部長你以前在申請這些所謂製作經費的時候你當然也希望政府能夠給我們更多的一個獎勵嘛你自己知道那這個部分是現在進行是就是臨日攻擊它耗資的2.3億而且呢文化部補助了7000多國發會所以合計補助的1.13億"},{"start":4374.975,"end":4381.177,"text":"那為什麼會被大家詬病的緣故呢你看看因為這個公司說實在的那時候大家問到你的時候你說我們不會出錢來拍一個這個中共打台灣的這樣影視作品這是部長你所提到的吧對不對我絕對是承認這個話是我講的對但是呢我覺得大家影視界最想要知道的就是這個公司裡面到底拿了多少拿了政府這麼多錢他的民間資金到底有多少他預計要花2點多億來"},{"start":4401.724,"end":4402.367,"text":"你們已經補足了1.14億那剩下1.多億你覺得民間公司的資金到位了嗎?"},{"start":4407.232,"end":4434.557,"text":"請給我一點時間解釋我們這次大概有11部像這樣子的案子通過大概都是要規定是要1億以上的資金離日供給是其中投資最高的一部但是我們是獎勵比例最低的一部但是部長我先打斷你因為我知道你要講什麼我覺得都已經做過study了你用比例來說不是最高但是他金額絕對是第二高但是2.3億裡面他從民間大概要再找1億多"},{"start":4435.077,"end":4438.721,"text":"他到位了嗎?其實我跟委員報告 我在乎的是他找了誰來當導演誰來當演員 然後最後拍得好不好"},{"start":4451.754,"end":4473.748,"text":"對部長這是我要跟你討論的明年5月才會上映如果它裡面有講了非常多我們到底發生這個問題的時候該怎麼辦我更擔心它裡面如果有非常多的影射而且剛剛面臨地方選舉它這個影射哪一些的政黨哪一些的人不愛台不做什麼你知道我可不想文化部補助的錢到時候來做個大內宣改給人民洗腦這對我們來說是"},{"start":4475.729,"end":4476.049,"text":"成重負擔"},{"start":4495.535,"end":4522.752,"text":"他們要送出來省又省然後退回然後再修正這樣的一個公司可以獲得國家這麼多的補助部長如果拍得好沒有問題但是我還是強調就像你在乎裡面的內容不要拿我們人民納稅的錢然後來做很多不適合的影射然後呢最重要的是給其他很想被關切的眼神的那些製作單位讓他們知道文化部的補助是可以接受檢驗是可以公平的"},{"start":4522.912,"end":4543.227,"text":"委員讓我講一句話好不好可以我上任不到一個月我就把這11組拿到我們文化部前的11組人找來一組一組的問他們資金還缺多少要我們幫忙什麼需要多少錢所以我完全完全公平連日公集是誰當導演我都不知道因為我很放心"},{"start":4544.068,"end":4548.493,"text":"我根本不在乎他誰擔當因為他拍10段故事好啦部長我提醒你啦你雖然是講現實但但我還是提醒你我們還是金鐘獎的得獎組還是有非常多影劇的人脈啦我告訴你每期自製費2000多萬但是很多的劇組只能到七八百萬部長請你重視這個問題還有"},{"start":4562.549,"end":4566.133,"text":"當你好稱每集製作2000多萬劇組拿到七八萬的時候你要去查一千多萬到哪裡去了這是一個非常重要的好不好我提醒這樣的部分部長好好地監督這樣的一個做法接下來因為時間的關係我們來看看你剛提到的出版業"},{"start":4578.487,"end":4582.231,"text":"我認為小野出版的100本作品應該跟出版業的距離應該是相當的接近的好不好特別你說那是一個文化盛衰的關鍵指標我完全同意但是部長你這邊所條列的很多的方式我也認同40%留住的出版業你也認為要強化國際的輸出對不對來我們來看數據會說話"},{"start":4600.268,"end":4604.732,"text":"事實上你會看得出來從這個數據裏面你看外銷並沒有成長我們2019年是34億最多的我們到2022年的時候33億算是打平所以表示我們的出版業的外銷的政策上面目前為止我還看不到不像韓國不管是書籍還是IP授權他們是請全國之力再去做而且外銷有沒有辦法拓展呢對不起2019年最高峰是102億1000多億"},{"start":4625.911,"end":4632.794,"text":"到目前為止我們還是沒有辦法突破而且我們的出版業真的很辛苦我們來看一下你看我們現在小型的出版業幾乎在不滿300萬幾乎在一半47%就是不到300萬的這樣的資本額所以他們越經營越辛苦我個人非常喜歡獨立書店可是目前來說他們幾乎沒有生存的空間我想部長應該很清楚再往下來看因為時間的關係所以你看我先告訴你好了獨立書店絕對是撿"},{"start":4654.125,"end":4658.328,"text":"而且呢你像電子書你說我們電子書你剛剛信誓旦旦捐你覺得電子書做得很好但是目前只被壓迫到只有12塊錢權利金這麼低誰要給好作品再往下看我只要一分鐘就好了你看你說的借月是不是400萬次這部長覺得很棒"},{"start":4671.579,"end":4693.366,"text":"但是呢你要知道平台賺3塊出版社賺9塊分給多少給作者我們還不知道然後呢你看看我們版權目前為止大概是3600萬但是你知道我們出版社有四五千啊我們退一萬不想我算一千一千家來看好了一家才分到三萬六你覺得這告訴我你這是完全文化指標嗎這是出版業的生態有誰可以活得下去啊部長這是我們出版社的一個非常大的問題這個了解我會跟這個人文出版師我們再重新討論"},{"start":4701.108,"end":4726.407,"text":"你不足以讓你對一個出版100本書的小影國家我也是受害者啦我後來拿不到版稅了是嗎你看看連這個東西對我受害所以我蠻了解的所以你很感同身受所以我與眾心長出版社對你多少的期望因為你是出過100本的你要給這些小出版社一個空間否則就是大者恆大小者全部都非常小了"},{"start":4726.787,"end":4732.21,"text":"我們真的很不希望到時候你們開價格很低還是只有開12塊你們給他更高的錢好不好15塊16塊起碼給這些人有辦法有一半要撐下去否則我真的不想讓他們失望充滿無力感然後最後熄燈關門走人而且是在一個出版100本書的這樣子的小野大作家的名下這個對你來說何其"},{"start":4751.52,"end":4760.387,"text":"這是金鐘獎主持人對於我們這樣的部分裏面對你的宇宙心腸的說法可不可以部長可以謝謝謝謝好謝謝柯政委員部長請回好謝謝我們現在請萬美玲委員好謝謝主席我們有請李部長好部長謝謝"},{"start":4785.699,"end":4810.761,"text":"關維你好好謝謝部長部長我想我們談這個文化平權是文化部一個非常重要的政策那我們來看桃園市是我們這個六都當中唯一一個沒有美術館的直轄市那我們好不容易因此派往到了市立美術館跟兒童美術館那這個興建其實我要非常感謝我們桃園市前市長鄭文燦市長以及文化部中央給我們共同的支持來推動這個重大的公共建設"},{"start":4812.462,"end":4818.368,"text":"絕對也是一個落實文化平權的重要指標我想部長贊成嘛對嗎對這個美術館蓋得非常漂亮這個蓋得非常漂亮是嗎好等一下我們來討論考慮美術館在107年的時候規劃108年的時候行政院核定原本計劃是37.5億地方自從23.74億佔65%那中央補助13.76億佔整體35%"},{"start":4837.205,"end":4857.456,"text":"但是呢我想這個前市府我們桃園市政府前市府當時不知道什麼原因為了要盡快加速能夠完成或是端出來這麼一個政績所以把美術館有很多項的工程剪相剪量來做發包剪到什麼程度呢部長剪到連消防工程機電空調建築排水地板空調屋頂"},{"start":4858.456,"end":4881.773,"text":"地面景觀通通都沒有我們就這樣做簡像發包了更不要說還有一些交通設施的改善啦照明內裝指標等等喔這些我們都不要提最基本的這些如果都沒有的話部長我剛念完的時候你應該可以知道喔如果是用這樣的方式根本不可能去取得實照那我們過去其實現在大家都在講說這個美術館已經變一個毛坯屋了但是本席今天要在這裡講這連毛坯屋都不如啊"},{"start":4883.814,"end":4899.838,"text":"﹚"},{"start":4899.938,"end":4924.522,"text":"走過路過就是看到一個很大的遺憾在那個地方那當然我們也暫時還沒有去追究到底為什麼當初要做這樣減量減相的發包那我必須要講其實桃園市其實不管是在統籌分分稅款一般補助稅款其實都非常少最近才又被中央因為社福的理由去扣了這個1億所以如果說我們還要去支付現在我們可能要增加的相關預算可能高達20.6億才有辦法把這些"},{"start":4927.503,"end":4927.563,"text":"部長知道嗎"},{"start":4943.414,"end":4963.121,"text":"這個計劃文化部還編列了總經費21.36億元其中有一個重點就是要升格台南市立美術館二館成為台南國家美術館我想我們提升任何跟文化藝術美術相關的本席都贊成不過你看這個美術館光明年一年你就預備投入八千萬經費我想希望來請求文化部"},{"start":4967.022,"end":4987.073,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":4987.173,"end":5008.039,"text":"不管台南啦或是各處我們井上天花我們有意見我覺得都很好但是拜託部長能不能讓我們桃園的市立美術館能夠雪中送炭給我們能夠按照現在我們之前的比例35%來分擔大約7.3億左右的一個預算我想部長能不能回覆一下就是說這樣子一個事情這個中央怎麼看待"},{"start":5008.479,"end":5030.396,"text":"好我回覆你好其實這個這個公建計畫是我們中央給的最高的比例的一個公共建設計畫然後也開國際標而且是我任內唯一跟設計師還有通信的因為三本設計師也有跟我講一些他所遇到的問題是這間通信通了好幾封是我相信沒有文化部長會跟一個"},{"start":5031.297,"end":5031.457,"text":"﹚文化部長李遠列席"},{"start":5053.348,"end":5073.658,"text":"我想是不是能請求部長 我覺得看到了文化部重新修正的計畫跟他的需求 那能不能來研議怎麼去協助那我想 這個我已經上來了嘛 能不能盡快 兩個禮拜左右我們研議看看可以怎麼做是不是可以部長責請哪一位可以到我的辦公室來 我們來研議一下這個計畫好不好那個計畫其實送來過 我們發現他寫的很簡單 我們退回去 他還沒有再送來"},{"start":5079.781,"end":5101.167,"text":"如果他再送來我們會再審﹖如果OK的話我們就要報公共建設計劃因為他是一筆很龐大的新的一個計劃要行政院合併所以部長如果桃園市文化局現在再修正過後再送過來您會報行政院然後給予支持跟幫忙我真的會努力但是因為這個決定權在行政院因為他是一個謝謝部長願意這樣子來努力幫忙我們就夠了"},{"start":5103.869,"end":5119.908,"text":"謝謝謝謝我們希望內外一致那接下來我想請教一下這個明年我看到文化預算還是突破新高了那我們達到310將近4億元那部長上任我印象中記得您在第一天您就有說到說您自己目前是四個孫子的這個爺爺嗎沒有記錯四個孫子嗎"},{"start":5123.031,"end":5148.255,"text":"三個孫子一個孫女OK好四個那OK記得很清楚沒有了嗎目前還沒有目前沒有了OK好那您說首要的任務就是要推動文化病能夠下降到13歲嘛對不對好那我們看到文化向下扎根您剛剛在報告的時候也有說到文化部的沃土計劃在這個12項沃土計劃當中其中一項其實就是要在既有的這個預算規模之下也就是說"},{"start":5148.675,"end":5149.796,"text":"目前我們有算過大概我們的費用大概要多6億吧"},{"start":5164.927,"end":5165.448,"text":"那人數呢﹖"},{"start":5181.701,"end":5207.523,"text":"你大概去出估需要7億可是我們看到今年文化幣編列了19億9855萬那這個114年你編列是19億5000萬你這個是不增反減我不理解為什麼不增反減新文化部你預計你預計這個是不是要去設限這個領取的一個限制還是你有把這個年齡層是要維持現在的普發又或者是你要縮減年齡層部長"},{"start":5209.785,"end":5228.335,"text":"文化幣編列的方式還包括我們要考慮它的領取的比例跟它使用的比例還有我們還會加碼就是說我們在很多活動中還要加碼你用200點我送你100點所以它的編列是一個非常要小心的一個編法"},{"start":5229.195,"end":5255.891,"text":"好部長的確嘛是要細緻的來編嘛但是我們就看到數字嘛數字很清楚現在我們看到整個數字你全部發放完畢的這個預算的經費大概就是要7億嘛好那我不管你整個在文化變相關的向下你的這個明年的預算就是比今年變得低所以你到底是預估你是有設限要去怎麼樣做領取的限制嗎有沒有目前有沒有還是普發我變得比較低是因為我們那個"},{"start":5257.847,"end":5274.248,"text":"人數變少總人數變少我請教一下所以我們現在還是按照現行的狀況來補發我13到15歲的錢我沒有變到明年喔我是在事辦我沒有用到明年的預算所以你事辦不需要任何的經費不是我就用想辦法我自己解決因為"},{"start":5274.608,"end":5279.152,"text":"你要怎麼去解決?從哪裡找錢?從原來的那個文化幣的預算裡找從文化幣預算?好來我想部長這樣子說啦其實我們看到其實過去你可能認為按照過去的經驗你不管是領用或者消費這文化幣的狀況其實不是那麼達到你預期的理想所以你可能認為沒有必要別人這麼多你可能是從中間這樣子挪來挪去 雲來雲去的那你認為可以找出來做示範的空間"},{"start":5300.632,"end":5314.383,"text":"但你不能這樣講啊當你說你要把這個年齡層下來到13到15歲的時候你知道有多少年輕人他們可能非常期盼非常開心他們終於也可能領到了那萬一明年呢非常踴躍的來領取跟消費怎麼辦啊你讓這些13到15歲的人啊年輕的孩子們啊對爺爺會很失望啊爺爺啊"},{"start":5321.368,"end":5339.622,"text":"我們這次是示範本來是都是1200點對不對我們這次示範只有600點那對爺爺失望當然會失望因為我們只有600點但是我覺得文化比的另外一個目的是讓小孩學會他怎麼使用這個600點然後他今天打西裝要買書呢還是聽音樂會呢然後他還會加碼"},{"start":5343.445,"end":5353.757,"text":"拜託這個政策我覺得你不管是向下或者今天我們林慶旭委員說希望能夠往上我覺得都是好的藉由文化幣的推廣可以讓大家更去參與嘛那不過我覺得整個計畫當中要更細緻一點好最後一點點"},{"start":5357.941,"end":5378.786,"text":"我只簡單提一下那最近我想台語證明的一個議題其實大家吵得沸沸揚揚的我在這邊時間很少我只有一個點我想要提醒部長我想台語證明這件事情大家有很多不同的看法客語族群等等的但是我想為什麼要去證明我們現在不知道你到底為什麼教育部發起的還是文化部發起的"},{"start":5379.966,"end":5384.833,"text":"其實這個方案是兩三年前通過的我今天沒有時間可以跟你詳細的去講但是我要說的是說我們今天有一個目標就是希望讓台語存續讓台語可以發展但是不是一個證明把這名稱改了"},{"start":5395.066,"end":5410.184,"text":"大家就會開始說臺語大家就會開始把臺語文化變得就是非常的非常非常能夠去enjoy或者是非常非常去認識所以我想我們桃園其實有一個傳統非常的好我們有那個福倫社每一年都在辦我們閩南語說故事演講比賽進入校園"},{"start":5413.848,"end":5438.208,"text":"你知道有多少學生越來越多學生去參與我看到那些孩子們他也許沒有一個本來說這個閩南語的環境但是因為辦了這個活動他們參與越來越好所以今天我要跟部長講我們改名稱不要啊變成一個意識形態這個其實可能沒有幫助反而是教育部在課程當中文化部在活動當中我覺得做法比改名更重要部長認同嗎非常認同但是因為台語這兩個字"},{"start":5440.189,"end":5440.349,"text":"業援職委員"},{"start":5483.255,"end":5487.9,"text":"主席請找請文化部部長李部長請"},{"start":5493.038,"end":5513.831,"text":"業務委員你好部長好先跟部長報告一下我們半橋有一個現在文化部力推的兒童未來博物館總經費165億是一個非常大的建設那部長因為是今年5月20號才到任我先跟部長講一下這個建設其實已經延宕非常久了過去大家在地方把這個建設講成一個選舉服務館每到選舉才有進度"},{"start":5517.293,"end":5542.419,"text":"那第一次是2018年的時候當時前院長蘇貞昌在競選新北市長的時候他說每一次經過這個地這個地叫特專山每次經過這個地方就enki因為都看到是最貴的機車停車場而如果是他來做市長的話會在100天之內取得用地馬上開始蓋這他講的因為很enkienki就是會很不舒服的意思結果後來"},{"start":5544.339,"end":5560.914,"text":"蘇院長雖然沒選上市長可是他當了院長理論上這塊地是文化部的院長就可以直接蓋了但是也拖非常久那拖了三年之後在2021年的時候蘇院長忽然當時的院長忽然跑到板橋說要給兒童一個大禮那個時候是2021年的時候"},{"start":5563.335,"end":5581.52,"text":"當時兒童非常興奮2018年被他一開始宣布的時候2018年兒童本來很興奮等了三年終於有進度了那個時候是2021年那時候兒童想說終於有大禮了結果後來呢到了2022年因為又碰到選舉了所以又有進度了那時候又講說要增加預算要變成130億"},{"start":5585.521,"end":5609.19,"text":"然後就隔一年2023年又快到選舉了又有進度了說要辦一個建築師成果的發表而且是總預算要從130億變成165億那2023年的時候距離第一次這個兒童未來館宣布已經過5年了那時候的兒童如果12歲已經是青少年了快成年了所以當時的兒童失望了那我們現在進度是說2023年要完成嘛對不對"},{"start":5613.563,"end":5637.344,"text":"2030年要完成嗎2030嘛對不對那院長有信心會如質如實的在2023年完成嗎我覺得我很謝謝你問這個問題我們大概是去年發包由那個日本的伊東李雄跟台灣的那個陳馬龍陳玉玲事務所標到之後我們的進度到目前為止完全是按照"},{"start":5637.824,"end":5637.984,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5655.689,"end":5658.571,"text":"2013年距離2018那時候蘇貞昌第一次宣布已經過12年了那時候兒童已經成年了"},{"start":5671.4,"end":5671.88,"text":"但是最近有一個家長跟我爆料"},{"start":5695.831,"end":5697.453,"text":"國家兒童未來館辦了一個活動這個活動找一些兒童去到這個場館的場地然後就發給他們一些簡單的建材就叫他們組裝啊設計陷阱啊什麼的據這個家長跟我講這個活動基本上蠻無聊的"},{"start":5712.853,"end":5722.717,"text":"然後這個活動的目的呢可能是想要藉由激發兒童想像力吧導入兒童的參與設計讓兒童參與這個過程當中可以分享一些他們參與活動的想法然後並且跟家長互動所以這個主辦單位有請家長後來填問卷那家長認為說那個問卷其實都有引導性就是想要引導說引導出可能那個主辦單位想像的樣子但他自己對於這樣的活動他認為沒有什麼成效"},{"start":5739.324,"end":5749.368,"text":"然後這個活動後來也有發餐盒那個餐盒就家長覺得也是蠻遜的所以呢總而言之基本上這是一個有經費的活動總共辦了兩場但部長我覺得非常奇怪的是這個總共165億的這個這麼大的案子"},{"start":5756.531,"end":5763.634,"text":"當然他中間是因為工程關係所以比較貴但我們辦公室想要了解一下欸你忽然間沒來遊的辦了這兩個活動大家覺得很奇怪啊因為你要現在的兒童來決定可能未來6年的場館的設計現在的科技日新月異啊"},{"start":5772.897,"end":5797.995,"text":"6年前還沒有AI但現在AI的發展是日新月異非常的迅速那所以當然我們覺得很奇怪我們想要了解一下這活動到底目的是什麼然後總共花了多少錢有沒有浪費預算這個是我們立委的天職結果文化部居然搞黑箱不給我資料他說這個預算大概就是統包在整個委託設計跟建造技術服務的6億元裡面"},{"start":5800.255,"end":5823.195,"text":"總共辦了兩場分兩個場次一場是38人一場36人全部統包在6億裡面就是說意思就是我不會告訴你多少錢反正在6億裡面不然你覺得可以這樣嗎那以後所有的6億裡面的這個項目全部都用這種方式來回復大家都不用去看說他到底花多少錢你覺得這樣可以嗎我可不可以回答你那兩個活動我沒有參加"},{"start":5824.276,"end":5829.378,"text":"我當然知道你沒參加以後我參加會變得更有趣那你為什麼不參加這個兒童館那麼重要我去參加你為什麼不參加看不起這個活動也絕對不是因為我要成立一個願景館的目的就是讓現在的兒童開始"},{"start":5839.761,"end":5848.406,"text":"院長不要 我跟你講因為我們質詢時間有限沒辦法從盤古開天開始講但是你也講到一個你只有針對我的問題就是說我們想要了解有沒有亂花預算因為家長參與的體驗是覺得這個不效但是你為什麼沒來有辦兩個活動花多少錢不給資料這樣對嗎這點我請我們的館長回答好嗎館長花多少錢"},{"start":5863.61,"end":5890.563,"text":"你好具體說明一下這個案子我們沒有另外發包這個案子其實它的源頭不是為了辦一個活動這個是在建築室的設計的委員有來索取過我們的需求說明書裡面有講建築師完成規劃的時候要把他的成果要辦一個工作坊來徵詢兒童的意見它的背景是這樣子所以還是有預算因為建築師不是做公益所以他一定還是有支出"},{"start":5891.668,"end":5910.74,"text":"那確實他就是建築師所以我們的答案我們當時回報的時候是很誠實的跟報告是說確實就是在建築師他的建築設計那還是有費用因為你是統包案嘛你6億是一個算是他的所有支出都在6億裡面嘛但是他還是有分項嘛我是問你分項的預算嘛為什麼不能給勒"},{"start":5913.891,"end":5924.437,"text":"反正你不願意給啦我們就知道說這個一百六十幾億這麼大規模金額裡面到底多少錢立法院是不能知道的這就是你們文化部的態度那另外我繼續問部長那現在兒童未來館你最近有經過嗎它是不是還是最貴機車停車場"},{"start":5931.701,"end":5932.262,"text":"是不是還是最貴機車停車場?是不是?"},{"start":5947.903,"end":5957.17,"text":"那個地方如果能給兒童用我就非常感動是不是最貴機車停車場你講不出來喔就是最貴的未來兒童館的所在地但是現在是最貴機車停車場所以代表說他目前為止他都還沒有實體上還沒有任何進展我說實體還在設計當中結果你看喔我們這個國家兒童未來館籌備處已經花了100萬出國考察了"},{"start":5977.522,"end":5978.044,"text":"為什麼要100萬出貨考察部長"},{"start":5984.349,"end":6010.468,"text":"你這樣問我就答不上來因為我們在計畫中本來就是大概請問一下這考察效益是什麼請他回答報告一下我們在我們的預算裡面編列的出國預算是裡面我們去參觀了美國的兒童博物館跟歐洲的兒童博物館在讓他們參觀他們的硬體跟他們的展示設計能夠回饋在我們的後續的展示就是去參觀兒童博物館嗎是好那出國報告呢"},{"start":6011.622,"end":6031.132,"text":"出國報告我們在3個月內我們都會提交3個月內你是什麼時候出去的?你本人有出去嗎?我暑假的時候有出去對我們第一本已經沒有交了沒有考查報告我們查不到阿我們會在期限內一定會交期限內什麼時候?按照法令是3個月內3個月喔所以這個是一個曠世巨作就對了"},{"start":6032.868,"end":6056.95,"text":"我等著看你們花100萬錢是怎麼花的所以部長今天問了兩個問題你答不出來因為你可能也乍聽之下也覺得怎麼會這樣那請你緊盯這個案子因為這是地方的期待而且以你剛剛講的辦這種活動你參加就會更豐富更精彩我們期待你來參加希望你多花點心思在這個我們這個案子上面"},{"start":6057.671,"end":6084.164,"text":"其實我都很喜歡身體力行啊但你要說到做到啦因為我跟你講備詢是就是論事講一套做一套不是講的天花亂墜不會不會對不對你答應我的我答應接下來我們來看一個最近大家很關心的黃牛票下一頁因為周杰倫演唱會中午的時候就要開始買可以開始買了嘛那我們不知道對於黃牛票有沒有一些防弊的機制有嗎"},{"start":6084.984,"end":6098.711,"text":"有啊有好那部長你看齁這個是我們隨便在網路上查的周杰倫票代購你就可以看到了一堆都是網路代購而且加價加得非常誇張比如說面額6,880塊的每張代購價可以到19,376這個為什麼這個為什麼不知道欸這沒有去查嗎這個沒有去查嗎"},{"start":6109.451,"end":6129.385,"text":"部長我們通常是受你檢舉後才調查不是啦那如果沒有人檢舉你就讓這事情發生喔你知道很多黃牛都是用掃票機器人所以很多代購公司為什麼他可以承諾他可以幫忙代購就是他有把握可以一次買到大量的門票嘛所以才可以告訴你說一張6880我可以你給我19000我就幫你代購你覺得這樣合理嗎部長"},{"start":6135.26,"end":6157.868,"text":"合理嗎當然不合理那為什麼沒有去查你不能被動受理檢舉啊其實針對黃牛我剛才前面已經回答過我們其實都我們當然有非常多的我跟你講這個不是找你麻煩這我是google的周杰倫代購就有的網衆一大堆請你們主動去稽查好嗎然後你們之前花了兩千多萬成立一個打黃牛的辦公室我們來看一下成效打黃牛辦公室委託了律師事務所幫我把那一頁叫出來你看"},{"start":6166.079,"end":6183.848,"text":"總共檢舉案件就是你講的要檢舉嘛總共從112年6月到113年9月檢舉了2802件但是大部分一半以上都不符合形式就直接退件只有受理了1059件然後最後才罰70件1059件如果除以15個月大概一個月是70件左右啊"},{"start":6189.622,"end":6205.154,"text":"那70件一天大概兩三件結果我們花兩三千萬委託律師事務所成立這個打黃牛辦公室裡面有大概10個人編制每一天只處理大概兩三件我不知道這種打黃牛辦公室效益何在"},{"start":6206.817,"end":6208.838,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會議"},{"start":6226.843,"end":6238.072,"text":"我們是不是請部長會後再...所以第一你導黃牛辦公室成效你去查清楚好不好那到底需不需要花這個錢做這個事第二不是被動接受檢舉要主動主動去查因為現在的民眾對於黃牛深惡痛絕阿"},{"start":6244.637,"end":6245.979,"text":"接下來我們有請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":6272.587,"end":6274.309,"text":"謝謝主席那有請部長好我們有請李部長好部長早安這是您的書對嗎沒有印象嗎第102本"},{"start":6288.797,"end":6314.538,"text":"我拿反了抱歉再一次第102本太好了那部長你知道你這本書有出有聲書嗎有好那你覺得有聲書也好紙本書也好都是為了推廣閱讀對嗎對那部長你你的年紀應該比我大很多你記不記得小時候臺灣曾經有盜版王國的稱號我第一本書就被盜版過對好部長我跟你報告恭喜你你現在新的有聲書也被盜版來下一頁"},{"start":6317.674,"end":6337.363,"text":"我們從韓江這個事情我就先跳過好了齁韓國做很多的外溢台灣的非常多的書也被做外溢了但是是用盜版的方法外溢我們上個月才開了會我們發現在盜版網站上從小英總統的書到部長您的書通通都被盜版下一頁再來撲馬委員的有生課程也被盜版下一頁"},{"start":6345.831,"end":6372.717,"text":"還有這個李律師的書也被盜版還有台灣年輕人非常喜歡的法白網站相關的東西都被盜版再來線上課程好好的線上課程也被盜版也就是說有生書有生課程都被盜版那從台灣最早的盜版起源就是非常多的歌曲也被盜版不是只有台灣這些創作者被盜版我們再來看下一頁"},{"start":6376.038,"end":6402.891,"text":"好Lady Gaga的歌好這些宮崎駿的好那我們上個月呢10月1號沒有很久部長我們10月1號開了相關的會議我們召集了文化部速發部智慧財產局刑事警察局四個相關部會我一個都沒有漏掉但是文化部給的回應非常的消極甚至呢刑事警察局要我們受害的業者自己上網"},{"start":6403.911,"end":6415.339,"text":"增加那個盜版網站的營業額然後才能去報案部長我手上這個光碟就是您這本第102本出版品被盜版的有聲光碟部長文化部怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":6417.062,"end":6444.594,"text":"其實我們有試著就像您剛才講說邀請好幾個單位文化部也只能用這個方式也只能這樣嗎部長您確定我覺得我們做的很有限我們的權力範圍跟能力很有限可是如果在相關的會議上制裁局認為文化部可以協助積極的認定這些書的正版擁有者就是像部長您像小英總統您像鋪馬委員他自己都可以主張這就是我的作品"},{"start":6445.054,"end":6465.183,"text":"而那個網站上放的是盜版那文化部基本上可以積極的協助制裁局去認定這個東西然後制裁局可以再更進一步跟邀請書發部做出數位組決的事情然後刑事警察局的報案當然是同步要進行明明就有相關手法可是文化部的態度一直很消極如果我們只是看著韓國人得諾貝爾獎我們看著韓國人的kpop k綜藝或者是kdrama有這麼多的可能性在國際上但是我們台灣"},{"start":6472.486,"end":6500.493,"text":"光是出版很多戲劇的源頭出版品都是這樣被對待包含現在有生課程你覺得我們台灣的出版業者創作業者創作者我們到底要怎麼看待這個事情我認為文化部的角色可以更積極但是因為我時間有限我讓部長看到這麼驚悚的畫面我很抱歉但是我本人來自童書出版業我也覺得非常的驚悚我們是這樣對待台灣的出版業者跟創作者我認為文化部的角色可以更專業跟更積極協助這些事情那"},{"start":6500.973,"end":6502.754,"text":"從前一任文化部長開始推電子書祭祀借閱我們在一月的時候呢"},{"start":6528.14,"end":6542.891,"text":"我們也拜託了文化部召開相關的會議去討論那部長根據我們跟你們的所知呢在電子書祭祀借閱平台上面有一家公司他叫點石曾經工作室他的估計他佔他的出版的書佔"},{"start":6544.472,"end":6557.739,"text":"前百名占了40本他的年收入在這個9加312塊的機制底下他得了200多萬這只是我們的預估收入可是部長我想問一下我們都來自出版業部長你有聽過這個出版社嗎"},{"start":6559.66,"end":6579.176,"text":"為什麼在電子書祭祀借閱平台它會是這麼高的點擊率啊有沒有可能有相關的問題我們不需要去檢討這個公司據我們了解是它裡面涵蓋了好幾個單位比如個人工作室青少年文學小說它還有鼓勵讀者去點閱還有它中間有涵蓋四個不同的平台包括遠流華譯"},{"start":6580.177,"end":6594.873,"text":"當然我當然手上是資料是統計過我當然知道那我來跟部長報告一下三分微光也好這個都是我們很不知道的出版社我想部長我們就不要否認我們都來自出版產業可是我們看一下在前排名前面幾乎很多其實都是雜誌"},{"start":6595.734,"end":6612.166,"text":"可是我們回頭來看文化部當時要做這件事情呢你們說的是要鼓勵數位閱讀促進出版業數位轉型可是我們看相關的數字部長你覺得有達到這件功能嗎而且如果當時你們在推這個事情的時候你們有說你們會做政策的討論滾動性的調整"},{"start":6614.428,"end":6639.283,"text":"但是你們在1月份的時候告訴我們你們還沒有辦法評估到了9月我們再問你們你們還是說沒有辦法評估於是再過了8個月後你們新的標案又再度出爐可是我想問部長人心是這樣的如果我有免費的書可以借我為什麼要去買書如果我有免費便當可以拿我為什麼要自己花錢買便當接下來我們來看的是當時其實很多業者就已經告訴文化部他圖C是會有影響的"},{"start":6640.063,"end":6662.183,"text":"更甚且好假設我們不要管產業要不要死活我們不要管可是光是我們台灣自己的圖書館以前買斷的電子書也受了影響就是因為電子書7次借月排擠掉圖書館買斷電子書的預算所以光是公部門買斷的預算也受到影響然後更不要講讀者這段他影響了圖C這件事情部長你怎麼看這個事情"},{"start":6663.224,"end":6681.707,"text":"如果你自己的一百本出版品原本在電子書平台可以賣得很好部長就以您自己的書但是他變成電子書祭司節約無上限而且你們沒有檢討機制我現在問的是連檢討機制都沒有我們要如何信任這個政策到底是在幫忙出版業者還是在強害出版業者讓他逐漸走向死亡"},{"start":6684.69,"end":6685.971,"text":"可是會不會是我們這個政策造成大家就不要去買書?"},{"start":6700.475,"end":6716.176,"text":"所以我說很多政策以為是幫助結果後來效果更不好但是我們不能去我們不能去指責消費者可是光是我講的光是我們台灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到了影響那這個假如這個政策有一天"},{"start":6716.836,"end":6737.364,"text":"他落日了他離開了這個臺面上那原本電子書在進圖書館買斷這個事情你們能大家再回覆嗎預算要再補回去嗎看起來沒有通盤的檢討不管是圖C或者是圖原來的圖書館這個部分都受到非常大的影響甚至是出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳出版社他到底是透過什麼樣點擊程式"},{"start":6738.604,"end":6753.941,"text":"去造成這樣的介入率難道我們不用考慮嗎甚至因為這件事情這個點擊率的排行榜我們去問了原本在賣電子書不管是COBO也好REMOO也好或是其他電子書平台這些書原本過去一兩年在他們的平台上銷售都不到百本"},{"start":6754.622,"end":6774.834,"text":"但是為什麽他在電子書祭祀接約平台卻造成這個局面我相信這不是部長您來自出版您身為出版人您樂意你所樂見的所以部長可不可以更積極我們來看這件事情我們到底還能做哪些事情你們通盤檢討到底什麽時候才要出來一個月內可以出來通盤檢討的事情嗎我們儘速把主委員剛剛講的這幾個辦法我們來"},{"start":6777.515,"end":6794.54,"text":"一個月內因為我剛說我1月問你們你們說要通盤檢討業界也說要給大家時間但是到現在10月了已經過去9個月我還是沒有看到檢討然後告訴我們你們給我們的回覆告訴我們無法檢討無法盤點這個政策到底是好還是不好難以直接評估"},{"start":6795.58,"end":6809.545,"text":"部長9個月了我覺得這對出版業者非常的不公平更何況很多的戲劇很多的電影的腳本原本的發想IP是來自出版產業我相信部長你一定明白是好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":6810.945,"end":6832.473,"text":"一個月內再來部長我在總質詢的時候提到用閱讀對抗3C這件事情或者是我也在告訴教育部用閱讀作為學習方法是這個世代我們的大人必須要陪孩子一起面對的事情其實大部分的青少年都認為閱讀對他們是有意義的可是實際上在日常生活非常難以做到我相信部長一定知道功課壓力是很大的原因"},{"start":6832.933,"end":6848.565,"text":"我們也都知道閱讀有助於培養同理心等等的好處這些都知道但是文化部到底對於青少年閱讀這些事情可不可以有更積極的做法不管是從0歲到18歲文化部跟教育部跟衛福部都必須各自承擔不同的角色"},{"start":6849.165,"end":6863.341,"text":"甚至這兩天大家在看日本NHK的紀錄片里面談到假訊息機器人我們人腦難道不能對抗機器人嗎而對於這些假資訊的思辨批判能力不就是要從閱讀培養嗎那部長你如何看待這件事情"},{"start":6864.062,"end":6891.545,"text":"委員你講的這件事情我覺得非常重要而且我來之後現在才5個月我就做了很多能努力的去改變一個就是我們必須讓小朋友有更好看的書包括漫畫或者繪本所以我推出一個繪本的計畫然後我想舉辦這個兒少書展大家過去也沒有辦過然後文化幣下修等等這些計畫我覺得我應該去找到教育部跟衛福部我們共同來演繹一個更有效的方法"},{"start":6892.245,"end":6909.36,"text":"那部長我提出類型小說因為台灣的類型小說這幾年的發展也面臨很大的困境甚至他們自己的相關的業者相關的創作者社群都還自己辦了獎項沒有跟文化部合作因為在文化部的眼中類型小說好像不是一個有意義的事情我從青少年的閱讀到剛剛各個部會必須要跨部會閱讀"},{"start":6912.102,"end":6932.374,"text":"到採進台灣的出版的品項類型小說可能會是一個解方所以這個部分也要拜託部長你剛剛說跨部會的會議我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是對於類型文學創作的獎補助或者是台灣相關創作者團體的支持我覺得文化部可以更有角色更加積極也要拜託文化部一個月內給我們相關規劃報告可以嗎"},{"start":6933.695,"end":6954.759,"text":"好,可以。好,那跨部會的會議我們辦公室也會主動召開會跟文化部、教育部跟衛福部積極用閱讀對抗假訊息我覺得這件事情再不做真的來不及了其實對我來講是蠻重要的是,好,我想非常的重要好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝陳秉立委員接下來我們有請林怡錦委員質詢謝謝主席,有請李部長"},{"start":6965.799,"end":6993.027,"text":"部長其實我還沒有請你沒事我本來只是想讓你喝口水可以嗎可以好那我們就有請李部長好部長好委員好我想COVID-19疫情舒緩之後我們大型的一些音樂展又蓬勃發展了起來不管是售票或免費的活動那我覺得這個都帶給地方這個無限的商機那光這個月"},{"start":6993.427,"end":7010.628,"text":"我們就有台南的讓人祭還有桃園的舔玫瑰音樂節高雄的打狗祭還有這個週末的搖滾台中等等這種大型的音樂祭的活動那我這個要真的很感謝很稱讚我們藝文工作者的辛苦也要謝謝文化部這個"},{"start":7012.49,"end":7041.225,"text":"緊急的講補助及扶持我們音樂的產業發展可是長期以來我們這個對於市場秩序還有消費端的這個保障卻相對低落一些我舉個例來講這家公司這個屏幕川他舉辦了這個2024 Island S的那個音樂節的這個活動那可是他9月30號宣布取消結果至今遲遲都沒有公告怎麼樣退款啊怎麼樣退票等等"},{"start":7042.405,"end":7063.881,"text":"這個都是在網路,很多網友的瘋傳。就目前來看,有一個網友他留言來陳述,就是說他手邊就有超過60個以上,不只台灣,包括韓國、香港的消費者苦苦等待怎麼樣退款。"},{"start":7064.381,"end":7072.226,"text":"那我想這家公司他拿過那麼多的他也拿過不少地方政府跟中央政府的標案喔那像上週末也剛完成在嘉義的這個10月開家雞皮節的活動那文化部也有掛名喔我們有掛名指導"},{"start":7079.791,"end":7098.05,"text":"所以我想說好那既然文化部文化部有掛名指導那我們就要想要請教我們是有補助嗎還是說就是被他掛名而已那如果說我們有補助的話那他這種在消費者權益這個多次沒有辦法妥善的處理的一家公司那我們要怎麼樣去處理他"},{"start":7099.428,"end":7101.189,"text":"我覺得對於這種有前科的公司我覺得可能要有一些方法"},{"start":7117.376,"end":7132.057,"text":"來去加強這種公司的這個品質會講到這一端是因為我覺得破壞交易這個秩序的最重要的就是我們現在看到就是免費一文票券的加價轉售的黃牛票現象"},{"start":7133.659,"end":7162.388,"text":"之前本席就有多次來提到這個票券免費票券的問題可是文化部那個時候都說其實藝文的票券很少有免費的所以應該不大能必須考量到這個議題的處理可是現在案例就馬上來了我們在那個國慶大巨蛋表演我們早上江蕙來結果大家搶了索票那所以就開始出現很可怕的這個所謂的零元票券加價轉售的這個現象就是所謂的黃牛的現象"},{"start":7163.408,"end":7164.229,"text":"本席提出文創法"},{"start":7179.949,"end":7180.009,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7201.558,"end":7216.924,"text":"過去我們的文創法裡面是要以付費觀賞為主所以這種免費的那種觀賞不在我們的法律限制內那這一次的活動我們也已經跟臺北市政府請他用他的方式來查緝這些轉賣"},{"start":7220.345,"end":7236.081,"text":"那委員剛剛講的這一條就是未來以沒有付費這樣方式的這個交易就是我想我們會列入來討論一下看看要不要修法對就比照運產條例來修文創法就是把所謂的零元票券也要納入懲罰當中"},{"start":7237.722,"end":7254.149,"text":"好,那我想加價出售跟所謂的榜物售票這個實質都是在所謂的提就是要提高民眾購買這個藝文活動票券價格這種行為我覺得都是觸法的因為它會有一些灰色地帶"},{"start":7256.05,"end":7275.199,"text":"他應該就是說你要求你買A就是你買A票券那你必須要連同B票券一起買那所以我覺得像這種縱使個別票券沒有被加價可是我們強勢消費者必須買下另一張票的行為這其實是不是也在破壞所謂的這個藝文市場的教育秩序部長"},{"start":7276.204,"end":7294.307,"text":"完全是啊因為他就走在一個灰色地帶要買這個一定要買另外一樣東西這的確是一個蠻灰色地帶的方法對所以這個也都要想辦法透過這個法制來去遏止這樣的行為或者他送多少錢東西如果有個價格可以衡量的話說不定就是一個法律的限制"},{"start":7295.007,"end":7310.495,"text":"對 所以也是要請文化部我們在這個修法我們要至少要周延因為這個現象確實是有所以我們都要去來通過法令來去做這個遏止的行為那好那另外我想我們的國寶這個甘露水"},{"start":7311.415,"end":7334.543,"text":"這個月的20號剛結束在日本東京藝術大學的這個展覽那我想這個黃土水與他的時代這個展覽我想不僅是對藝術家這個創作脈絡的清楚的爬梳也是一次非常成功跟珍貴的文化的外交那不只在東京或者在東京不只在車站或者在很多的公園我們都可以看到這場展覽的這個宣傳海報那抖到標題就寫著台灣美術的國寶到日本來了"},{"start":7340.545,"end":7362.424,"text":"我想開展的當天東藝大一年一度的熱鬧藝伎我想也讓整個展場受矚目是大大的提升所以我真的要很謝謝文化部過去7年來我們從建台灣藝術史1.0計畫的推動因為這一次的展覽就是在所謂的"},{"start":7364.005,"end":7367.267,"text":"一點零計畫的帶動下我們才可以擺脫過去被遺棄破壞隱藏的命運才可以來所謂的重建天日獲得修復那我想這個甘露水這個命運也何嘗不是台灣藝術史的這個命運所以我想未來"},{"start":7384.077,"end":7410.917,"text":"我們要有重建台灣藝術史這個2.0的持續推動那我想不曉得部長你對於這個計畫你現在是有什麼樣的這個期待那你會交出多少的具體的成績單其實我覺得2018年那個前瞻計畫幫助我們收集重建台灣藝術史其中最大的一個效果就是民間也開始很多捐民間也開始捐助2.0本身我們就增加了一些項目"},{"start":7412.068,"end":7428.536,"text":"除了原來我們講的音樂美術各方面的藝術史之後我們要增加建築史跟歌仔戲史還有其他的東西然後把它輸進AI裡面讓全世界可以解讀我們台灣的藝術文化這點是我想做到的"},{"start":7428.996,"end":7450.671,"text":"好 那所以我們真的在這一次的計畫裡那當然也期待部長要交出更具代表性的這個成績單那我想在未來的這個推動重建台灣藝術史2.0裡面我們會看到更多的台灣藝術這個被展覽 被再展演特別是可以到國外去這樣好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝林盈瑾委員的質詢接下來我們有請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":7474.756,"end":7490.13,"text":"部長你好部長你好在首先開始今天的質詢我想先邀請你啊10月2627有機會的話來到台中你知道台中有一個林蘭通嗎"},{"start":7491.667,"end":7493.307,"text":"臨南通散步納涼會臨南通散步納涼會"},{"start":7514.033,"end":7539.192,"text":"他是一個由民間所發起的一個活動近年來因為臺東市政府也很關注我們覺得民間的力量值得我們去注意去協助我們也希望文化部未來能夠參考這一類的活動性質並且帶動到整個文化藝術甚至他在過往能夠參照整個日治時期所留下來的一些文化一直在延續我們也希望文化部能夠重視"},{"start":7540.072,"end":7553.812,"text":"能夠一起來發展甚至能夠把這一個很好的案例複製到全國那我們也希望部長有機會來到台中10月26 27是不是撥個時間來看到我們這個林南通三不納兩會邀請你好嗎好"},{"start":7555.234,"end":7574.51,"text":"第二個我要跟部長特別預告現在是10點37分再過將近一個半小時我們的藝術界演藝界就會發生一件非常慘烈的一個狀況那件狀況部長您覺得是什麼剛剛許多的委員都有提到"},{"start":7579.077,"end":7597.575,"text":"你講周杰倫演唱會啊周杰倫演唱會大家會覺得這是好事啊怎麼會是慘烈的狀況部長我可以百分之一萬跟你保證待會12點以後他一定是接近秒殺然後呢開始就會哀鴻遍野全部的人就會告訴你買不到票"},{"start":7598.596,"end":7619.901,"text":"現在我也到處在拜託我朋友中午大家一起守在電腦看能不能搶到一張一張算一張我們只求一張而已啊那可是我要告訴你這個待會12點那不是人在買的那是機器人在買的你知道現在基本上剛剛有一些跟你看網頁啊但是你大概知道周杰倫演唱會一張票大概多少嗎10萬吧120萬"},{"start":7626.094,"end":7648.449,"text":"沒有啦一二十萬我的錢跟人家不太一樣你那個日幣啦是大概6800是最高的可是基本上九月多的新聞九月多的新聞沒有公布場次甚至有些人還不煞煞到底要辦在哪裡就已經有人在講要幫忙協助代購6萬2到6萬這樣子的一個價格"},{"start":7654.315,"end":7664.331,"text":"令我們瞠目結舌我們只是想聽一場藝文表演卻變成一場奢望部長這一次他有沒有實名制你知道嗎"},{"start":7666.345,"end":7691.601,"text":"看起來是沒有嘛對不對所以我要講真的是令我們非常擔憂12點以後我們一起來見證這一場慘烈的狀況周杰倫我自己都想親眼目睹一次做一個立法委員都難以去買到這樣子的一個演唱會門票更可想而知我們平常所有的國人所奢望就變成是一個夢"},{"start":7692.842,"end":7707.419,"text":"我希望說我們的打黃牛辦公室實際的作為讓民眾能夠看到可是我要講的是部長您自己本身也是藝術界您知道當這個不管是藝術品或者是作者"},{"start":7708.14,"end":7732.11,"text":"被所有的粉絲或者是國人所愛戴的時候那對他們來說是一個非常崇高的是非常開心的可是真正的粉絲卻沒辦法進入到現場去觀看而是黃牛不斷的透過我還曾經看過新聞報導人家是直接採訪黃牛業者黃牛業者直接跟大家講他一個月賺幾百萬"},{"start":7734.399,"end":7762.83,"text":"這讓我們看到真的是很痛心所以我要拜託部長我希望在近期打蚊牛辦公室能夠給我們實際的作為相關的期程或者是變革這部分您可以答應嗎這個世界是蠻不公平的你剛剛講說粉絲看不到黃牛從這邊賺很多錢這世界真的很不公平我盡量再想辦法用我們現在現有的那些其實我們一直在做"},{"start":7764.453,"end":7765.114,"text":"我只能感觸啊"},{"start":7779.267,"end":7807.064,"text":"好不要這樣子的態度我們希望是會努力面對改進好來部長在質詢我想跟你詢問一個問題雖然你是文學專家可能不是繪畫專家但我想文學跟繪畫其實都是藝術中不可或缺的重要領域我仍然想聽聽你的一些意見這個藝術的問題很難去界定但是他很主觀但我內心是有一個答案本席想先邀請你欣賞這一幅畫我們看一下BTT"},{"start":7807.964,"end":7811.369,"text":"然後再進一步問部長這個問題部長有沒有看過這一幅圖畫沒有印象喔作者是誰我們也大概不知道這幅畫是幾世紀創作出來的"},{"start":7819.298,"end":7835.974,"text":"也不太知道好沒關係我們來看喔他看起來很像一一幅名畫但其實他不是名畫這幅畫是一名國外的男子啊他使用AI去製作的繪圖他拿這一個生成圖像去參加科羅拉多科羅拉多州的博覽會舉辦的美術展結果獲獎"},{"start":7840.799,"end":7854.39,"text":"評審團認為這幅畫達到了懂得講述故事以及有靈魂的作品的標準那很多網友就崩潰啊覺得這目睹了藝術消亡在我們眼前開始的時刻請問部長你認同嗎你覺得AI藝術創作算是藝術嗎"},{"start":7862.608,"end":7888.789,"text":"AI藝術也算是一種藝術但是因為它是透過機器去把人類的智慧再反推回來我們不能說它不是藝術但是我們要分辨什麼是自己原創什麼是AI的設計這個對我們來講尤其是文化部我們實際上對外徵件嘛徵繪本也好徵漫畫也好徵文學作品也好這點對我們來講是非常重要的去分辨它到底是AI還是原創"},{"start":7889.87,"end":7905.426,"text":"但是你說AI不是藝術好像也不能這樣講因為藝術的廣義就是大家可以欣賞就算是藝術對 所以部長我覺得大家都不用擔心這件事不用緊張我們探討這個新興的問題因為AI創作是不是藝術我想是一個開放式的一個答案"},{"start":7906.147,"end":7922.605,"text":"那每個人都有自己的一個界定但是我想說的我心裡面的界定就是藝術他是根植於我們的社會也就是說和我們的社會變遷和文化歷史息息相關社會上當然也有一些其他不種的看法有人認為AI創作就像是當初發明相機的時候"},{"start":7923.945,"end":7950.056,"text":"只是提供了一種新型態的藝術媒介但也有人認為AI創作是廉價的甚至會讓藝術走向沒落對此大家都可以有不同的觀點不過現在有一個更大的爭議是因為已經有人使用AI創作參與藝術競賽部長你認為在我們還沒有就AI創作是不是藝術達成共識的前提之下你認為讓AI作品參賽是否會引發問題"},{"start":7951.86,"end":7966.73,"text":"我剛才已經回答過我們如果發現他是AI我應該取消資格比如他就是得獎了有人來檢舉他他就應該取消資格當然我們也有看過前例對吧我們近期就有發生類似這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":7967.711,"end":7984.696,"text":"但我要講就是說我們有一個概念喔就像當年啊攝影技術誕生的時候同樣面臨藝術界的一個質疑但最終攝影成為了藝術的一個一部分喔所以請問部長認為AI創作是否也面臨類似的一個過程這個過程你覺得是不是類似"},{"start":7985.499,"end":8004.092,"text":"還不知道他未來會發展是什麼樣子就像您剛才講攝影跟繪畫他能夠拍得這麼真實可是也有人可以畫得這麼真實那他的藝術價值在哪裡各有各的說法那AI會不會成為未來的一個藝術的一個項目我平安你講我還不知道"},{"start":8005.629,"end":8034.492,"text":"可是我覺得民眾可以不知道但文化部要有一個態度我想文化部是在這個立場上會成為一個關鍵如果文化部的這個立場有拿捏到或是是還有自己的一個態度未來對於這樣子的一個過程當中是否AI藝術會成為真正的藝術或者是它被否定不能成為藝術我想文化部在這個角色上所扮演的絕對是關鍵尤其未來不僅是AI參與"},{"start":8035.913,"end":8063.948,"text":"這個藝術的競賽可能還會涉及更復雜的一個問題例如AI生成的作品是否擁有與人類創作的作品有相同的著作權保護我想這個部分也值得我們去做探討那再來就是生成的過程涉及多位創作者作品AI生成的作品是否會侵犯原創作的一個著作權我想這個部分我們也應該要去來關注包括二次創作所以我想AI生成的作品在這樣子的狀況之下"},{"start":8064.909,"end":8069.304,"text":"文化部有沒有具體的一個因應措施我剛剛所提到的"},{"start":8070.626,"end":8098.661,"text":"好像目前還沒有這方面的一些法律的規定但是我想我們應該要開始面對這個所以我今天點了這麼多問題就是希望我們要面對這件事情我們這一屆的政府被稱為AI內閣並為AI編列了大量的預算AI的技術運用不只是只限於藝術創作所以也包括了文化創意的一個產業其他領域例如電影音樂遊戲文化部都是否會來推動AI技術這些領域的運用"},{"start":8100.622,"end":8124.167,"text":"並提供支援的一個支持這個部分我希望作為AI內閣您是部長則無旁貸我想AI創作的逐漸崛起對於傳統藝術的一個影響都是一定會有的但是文化部是否認為這個改變藝術市場的結構或讓年輕藝術家面臨更大的競爭壓力我們是否有面對這樣子的一個變化的政策我想"},{"start":8124.847,"end":8134.101,"text":"部長我希望近期能夠看到我們文化部內部開始討論開始要有一個期程 旁邊點頭如搗蒜是不是直接回答一下"},{"start":8136.767,"end":8139.209,"text":"我希望這些指引AI生成式的指引要趕快出來讓藝術界能夠更加安心讓AI創作能夠有更加的明確指引這個部分麻煩文化部好嗎謝謝"},{"start":8165.001,"end":8190.857,"text":"好,謝謝羅廷偉委員我想等一下12點因為我們這裡還在開會喔倒是那個文化部有人有空真的可以看一下這個羅廷委員剛剛所謂的這個災難喔不過部長真的要提醒您喔其實昨天我有朋友好整以暇的說他一定會有這個周杰倫的票因為呢他說這個有人就是找他很清楚就是6萬塊代購所以今天很多委員在談這個議題喔我想文化部還是要注意一下好那謝謝羅廷偉委員接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":8197.74,"end":8201.044,"text":"謝主席請李部長請李部長部長早安"},{"start":8209.793,"end":8229.467,"text":"那我在這邊還是要跟你討論一下這個不公平的事件今天早上其實很多委員就非常關心今天中午12點會開搶的這個周杰倫的演唱會的票那其實在票還沒有開始出售之前呢其實代購費就已經在網路上沸沸揚揚6萬6萬2所以一張票最高可以來到將近7萬塊那其實我們過去一直在討論說如何防止黃牛票"},{"start":8236.192,"end":8257.847,"text":"是不是其實我們應該檢討從根本做起我們把重點放在討論跟業者討論是不是把售票模式改為抽票制那過去在委員會我也一直有質詢那實施次長也曾經表達過說他也認為說其實抽票制會是防治黃牛票的一個好的方式之一"},{"start":8258.507,"end":8268.831,"text":"那也說到有一直以來有在跟業者做溝通希望可以改變我們台灣主流的這個售票模式那在這邊我要請教部長目前我們討論有沒有什麼結果或是說有什麼進度剛剛講說那個抽票制好像還不在我們的討論範圍內我們只是目前只做到實名制還有配套的降低演唱會環流剛剛講到那個抽票制我想我們未來會列入考慮"},{"start":8287.887,"end":8302.907,"text":"所以實名制我們有在做然後我們這個我們用重罰來懲治這個黃牛票來打防治黃牛票這個我們現在正在做但是所謂的這個好方法之一的抽票制我們還沒有開始進行討論嗎"},{"start":8305.148,"end":8333.328,"text":"因為那個我們每次要開賣這種東西我們要尊重那個主辦單位他要怎麼做我們譬如說我們希望他實名制他不肯做或者跟他講抽票制他不肯做我們完全沒有辦法就是他主辦單位本身要用什麼方式賣票所以跟業者開始討論的這個門還沒有打開有啊就是希望他怎麼做可是他也有權利不做因為他不願意用實名制因為可能會影響他賣票之類的"},{"start":8334.663,"end":8362.235,"text":"這部分其實你看從早上質詢到現在這麼多委員都非常的關心關於黃牛票這麼猖獗那其實改變我們我國目前主流售票方式其實是防治黃牛票一個很可以有很顯著效果的一個做法當然如果業者這邊一直沒有辦法我們還沒有辦法跟他們有共識也希望說我們我們化部這邊可以更積極的更努力來跟業者做溝通部長你覺得是這一點我們一定會做"},{"start":8362.998,"end":8378.612,"text":"好,謝謝部長那接下來我們跟部長您請教您在今天的質詢裡面有提到說要將文化幣向下延伸的這個事辦計畫那你們要擴大的年齡層是13到15歲大概就是國中生的年紀那預計發放文化幣的點是600點"},{"start":8382.315,"end":8393.233,"text":"那發放的份數是60.5萬那其實今天有委員執行過這樣子估算起來其實114年度文化幣編列的預算是就1.5千萬"},{"start":8396.061,"end":8418.76,"text":"原本發放的對象是16到22歲的這個年輕人那你再加上我們估算起來的這樣子的國中生的這個年紀再加上這樣子的預算起來會超出就是你本來的編列的預算會有短處那這個部分還不包括就是說我們無化幣的整個運作APP的維護費用還有我們行銷費用那這個短處的這個經費無化部這邊要如何來支應"},{"start":8424.685,"end":8424.705,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8446.303,"end":8452.865,"text":"所以大概是這個原因就是會看事辦的結果之後才決定要不要用1200將來變預算的規模那這邊我也想請教其實因為我們13到15歲這個年紀就是國中生那其實他們可能比較難很獨立的自己去參展去參觀展覽或者是觀賞戲劇的表演通常還是會需要家長的協助那我們在這個辦理的時候我們如何引導學生來使用那領取的方式會跟現在的"},{"start":8475.551,"end":8501.15,"text":"這個年齡階層的領用的方式是一樣的嗎就是我們為什麼會下降就是希望下降的這個年齡可以有親子一起來共同活動然後除了手機之外我們會也許他如果沒有手機我們就另外一個發卷的方法其實要不要下降這個問題其實我們在內部討論了很久大家一直認為13到15歲會不會太小"},{"start":8503.712,"end":8505.975,"text":"我自己很想試試看所以我用示範的方式"},{"start":8521.493,"end":8542.705,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":8543.125,"end":8562.34,"text":"推出以來推動以來的受青年的好評那也希望說我們在這個向下延伸的這個部分我們能夠用更具體的規劃內容並且要妥善的辦理也期待就是說我們事辦之後會有很好的成效這個部分本期也是樂見其成所以請文化部這邊加油接下來跟部長您來討論我們文化部為了推動我們臺灣優質的影視音的製作從去年開始有個黑潮計畫"},{"start":8571.047,"end":8577.428,"text":"那也聯手國內電信業者投入30億來產製優質的台劇那其實我們最近這幾部優質的戲劇在國際上也受到肯定了像在釜山電影節還有我們自己國內金鐘獎都得到很多的獎項可見就是說我們有這樣子的誘因我們這樣子來投資之後我們所產製的這樣子的影視音的節目其實大家都是很肯定而且是有成效的"},{"start":8599.693,"end":8605.676,"text":"但是我們的影視因有這樣子快速發展的成像我們本土的OTT平台到目前仍是很難以跟國際的OTT平台來抗衡根據我們文策院這邊的報告顯示台灣的影視串流平台能就是由Netflix還有DisneyPlus佔的最大宗那我們自己國內電信業者推出的3個OTT平台加起來也最高只有一成這個民眾來觀看"},{"start":8628.607,"end":8655.196,"text":"所以說這個占比跟國外的這些OTD平台真的是沒有辦法來相比那我們來參考像韓國的做法他為了跟國際的OTD平台抗衡他是整合他們自己國內的這個OTD平台但這個部分我們文化部有沒有這樣的想法有沒有這樣的構想這樣的規劃我們是不是可以徵詢業者的意見把國內的OTD平台整合起來"},{"start":8656.107,"end":8678.28,"text":"其實這件事情文化部一直在做不要說整合連我們要跟其中一家來做一個投資都會有些法定的問題不過這點經過一年的時間我們終於突破了第一個就是跟中華電信極有可能會成為一個重新成立一個基金大概30億左右類似這樣的合作方式只是鼓勵台灣"},{"start":8679.261,"end":8695.156,"text":"至少那三大電信平台認為投資文化內容是有錢賺的是有利潤的至少我們先把台灣本土的三大電信做起來那至於國外的這個能不能走到國外去我覺得是要靠我們自己本身的本土的這個作品的好壞"},{"start":8696.357,"end":8700.561,"text":"所以這個應該是雙管齊下的其實我們最近的這幾部比較優質的戲劇都是有他們的投資他們已經也感受到說其實有資金的挹注能夠讓我們的戲劇的整個拍攝的過程更順然後我們的作品會更優秀但是如何能夠整合我現在剛剛提到的問題是整合當然你一家獨大有時候其實你跟國外的比還是很難以抗衡"},{"start":8723.26,"end":8744.447,"text":"那如果有辦法把資源大家結合在一起化零為整是不是我們的競爭力會更強因為我們有這麼優質的影視作品如果沒有及時發展這個OTT平台那我們要推廣我們自己優質的這些影音產品到國際上可能也會被限縮那我們這樣子的管道越來越限縮的話我們覺得說該怎麼樣去突破這個困境還是要從我們的OTT平台這邊來加油部長你覺得呢"},{"start":8752.011,"end":8752.312,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8767.575,"end":8795.786,"text":"我們文化部的輔導金跟文策院投資加上再賣到Netflix或者賣給CatchPlay等等第10屆這樣才能夠生存那我們文化部的政策就是爭取到能夠繼續擴大這個OTD平台的能力跟實力當這三家平台都能夠購買更多的我們自己文化內容的話我們就會慢慢增加這個比例那這一點是我我上任之後最急切要做的"},{"start":8797.043,"end":8816.426,"text":"謝謝部長也希望這個部分我們可以持續的努力繼續加油來跟業者做溝通來跟業者這邊有一個共識那接下來我要請教部長我們文獎條例在110年修正之後第9條有明定文化部得輔導職業工會協助藝文工作者加入勞工相關保險"},{"start":8817.367,"end":8840.677,"text":"如果藝文工作者所達為的一定的標準：文化部必要時的編列預算補助藝文工作者參加社會保險那部長本身您也是很知名的作家想必您也是能夠了解藝文工作者的不容易但是關於藝文工作者的這個認定標準一直遲遲未制定也導致部分的藝文工作者難以有符合這個規範來參加社會保險"},{"start":8842.878,"end":8866.237,"text":"那所以呢本期在7月的時候我有召開過一次座談會要求文化部要跟藝文工作者跟相關的工協會進行諮詢那在9月底的時候文化部已經有辦理過這個諮詢會議也提出了未來要你制定這個身份認定標準可以運用目前藝文工作者的相關的工協會的名單以及文化部的講助名單作為參考的基礎"},{"start":8869.64,"end":8870.842,"text":"那我想了解一下說部長文化部有沒有預計藝文工作者認定標準你們有沒有制定時程什麼時候可以著手"},{"start":8880.046,"end":8903.297,"text":"在這個問題我們因為剛剛開過會議之後藝文工作者身份認定的標準諮詢會議開過之後但是對這個身份的認定其實還是有點困難但是考量我們基於職業自由還有文化藝術工作者的身份的自我認定我們也會訂出一個相對有會員權利的福利正在進行中"},{"start":8903.897,"end":8928.175,"text":"主席請給我30秒北京市長說藝文工作者的這個認定標準這其實他是有一定程度的困難但是也相信是說要很快的提出辦法你們也內部也是需要經過充分的討論但是既然我們講條例裡面是有規範的我也希望文化部在這個你們應該要做的這個工作裡面一定要定一個目標定一個期程出來你們才可以逐步去完成"},{"start":8929.266,"end":8930.466,"text":"謝謝主席,謝謝部長謝謝主席,有請文化部李遠部長"},{"start":8958.524,"end":8960.205,"text":"好我們請李部長各位你好部長好不管是過去還是現在文化科技跟主權絕對都是密不可分的在我們邁入這個AI的時代我們要開始來更加的關注文化的議題自從CHECK GPT在2022年問世以來有各個國家在不同的地方都要來打造他們自己的AI"},{"start":8986.147,"end":9001.194,"text":"中國的百度呢就宣布要打造華文版的生成式AI文心藝人現在AI的排行榜上面也有非常多中國大陸的團隊與之抗衡那我們已經看到了行政院的卓榮泰院長宣誓我們要進入主權AI的時代"},{"start":9002.094,"end":9017.027,"text":"我們作為少數使用繁體中文那當然我們的官方說法是臺灣政體以下我會用繁體中文來稱呼我們認為臺灣應該當然也急需打造我們自己的語言模型或者相關fine2的AI"},{"start":9018.428,"end":9041.263,"text":"能夠捍衛我們台灣在華語世界裡指標性的燈塔讓繁體中文跟簡體中文的中文之爭文化之爭思想之爭這個重要的一戰我們不會輸也不能輸請問一下部長文化部作為組長中華民國我們台灣文化政策的部會是不是願意成為部會之間捍衛繁體中文正體中文的領頭羊"},{"start":9042.344,"end":9045.95,"text":"所以您身為中華民國我們台灣的文化部的部長願不願意成為捍衛繁體中文的重要的第一人"},{"start":9057.366,"end":9077.502,"text":"不是第一人,就是參加座而已。重要人嘛。重要,對。沒錯嘛。那我們先前賴總統在國際晚會發表演說有一個祖國論那當然啦,不管是祖國論還是祖權AI我們繁體中文、正體中文都應該要更加正統而且更加的能夠表達我們華語的文化"},{"start":9078.263,"end":9096.304,"text":"但是本席最近接獲許多、非常多、超級多民眾的反應已經非常長的時間了。Google旗下的影片分享網站也是目前全世界最大的影片搜尋和分享平台YouTube。它本身內建的影片自動翻譯字幕的功能"},{"start":9096.864,"end":9101.787,"text":"所有的字幕都沒有問題簡體中文也沒有問題就只有繁體中文的字幕根本就是沒有辦法顯示沒有辦法出來常常就是有狀況的一個狀態如果部長上網搜尋你會發現非常多的網友非常多的網友崩潰"},{"start":9113.433,"end":9113.653,"text":"：陪配豬的卡通"},{"start":9144.875,"end":9158.034,"text":"我們用自動翻譯我們看繁中小朋友想看中文不好意思沒有繁體中文然後我們再看一下他們說我還是想看他在講什麼啊怎麼辦"},{"start":9160.62,"end":9180.127,"text":"選擇簡體哇翻譯就出來啦我們年輕的小朋友就看簡體中文啦再來勒博物館利物浦博物館想要瞭解有國外的歷史想要來瞭解他繁體中文的翻譯出不來沒有沒辦法看"},{"start":9181.207,"end":9201.79,"text":"結果呢我們臺灣的青年要學習啊不好意思啦你只能看簡體中文的翻譯這個已經兩三年了網路上都是討論我其實從進來之後我每一天都在關注這件事情我沒有得到回應我們看到最可怕的是什麼我們再來看下一個例子"},{"start":9202.691,"end":9212.779,"text":"我們的賴清德總統用英語在國際場合進行演說結果我們的國民想要了解我們總統英語演說的內容居然被迫"},{"start":9213.922,"end":9230.979,"text":"沒有辦法看繁體中文竟然我們竟然只能看到我們的全國的民眾全世界愛好繁體中文台灣正體文化的人只能看到簡體中文在我們的總統的臉上部長"},{"start":9233.661,"end":9239.185,"text":"我真的覺得這件事情非常非常的重要我們如果沒有辦法重視這些事情的話我們可能會淪為文化三級貧富什麼文化貧權變成貧窮的貧吶變成文化貧權吼我想上一次我就反應過了我們在金鐘獎podcast的報名軟體裡面曾經竟然看到了簡體中文當時文化部回應吼"},{"start":9259.538,"end":9283.589,"text":"說我們的影視工作者慣用的軟體開始逐漸的不提供繁體中文的介面結果現在全世界最大的這個影音的平台由我們總統的影片上面全國的民眾要看竟然沒有辦法看到繁體中文的翻譯本席認為網路上所有做外掛的積極向YouTube申訴反映但是卻沒有得到結果的這些網友值得欽佩"},{"start":9284.79,"end":9304.239,"text":"他們沒有因為一時的方便就說好啦簡體可以看就好了啦我是真的覺得很欽佩他們我也很痛心啦我想我們的部會如果有把我們賴總統的祖國論放在心裡重視我們台灣政體反體中文的華語的文化我想齁文化部是不是應該要來重視這件事部長"},{"start":9305.319,"end":9334.554,"text":"站在發展主權AI提升文化韌性的立場文化部對此是不是應該要來向YouTube或者這些商業的平台表達我們官方的立場這點我們來試試看因為我覺得台灣的歷史命運一直在這種很強勢的政權跟文化的壓力下一直存活到現在全世界只有我們在用繁體制包括我們的文化也是在一直強力的打壓下往前走那這個部分"},{"start":9335.97,"end":9338.051,"text":"部長,您可不可以鼓勵一下我們所有的網友"},{"start":9357.503,"end":9375.346,"text":"我真的是很佩服這些我是真的現在都有點眼眶泛淚我佩服這些包括我自己啊我都不願意去看這些簡體的中文你能不能站在主權AI的立場文化部是不是支持強烈希望像YouTube這樣的平台可以有繁中翻譯的字幕"},{"start":9376.347,"end":9390.736,"text":"我們來試試看吧因為我覺得他們那種你去跟他溝通他有時候非常強勢的他不會理我們就像我們的自己的對外的關係一樣但是為了我們的文化為了我們的主權希望我們來努力好不好文化部"},{"start":9392.217,"end":9416.776,"text":"再來我想今年4月份我也曾經就台灣電影應該要建立官方資料庫的問題來質詢過為什麼呢我們的文化我們的習慣我們的過去美好的回憶開始慢慢的被侵略了這個角色我也很喜歡我們都叫蜘蛛人但是有很大一部分的人竟然是叫他蜘蛛俠這個文化上的翻譯不一樣"},{"start":9417.657,"end":9434.549,"text":"因為電影殺秋走紅的這個Zendaya號稱地表最強30歲以下女演員在台灣就有多個藝名是沒有辦法平均的有人叫千代雅有人叫新代雅有人叫讚達雅我們叫珍妮佛的現在有些地方叫珍妮花"},{"start":9435.53,"end":9460.94,"text":"如果文化部沒有用官方的立場來建立這樣的資料庫我們年輕朋友未來在講這些電影的這麼棒的文化的這些語言的時候是沒有辦法用我們美麗的臺灣正體繁體中文過去慣用的稱呼您覺得這樣可以接受嗎請問部長我們目前電影資料庫創建的進度如何114年文化部有沒有編列相關的預算"},{"start":9463.1,"end":9463.941,"text":"我是不是請市長來回答"},{"start":9485.851,"end":9503.877,"text":"委員好關於委員之前有詢問到台灣統一移民影片統一移民的部分我們之前其實有在進一步去詢問各個業界代表因為其實像這種國外的移民或外來片商的移民他其實進口的片商他還是會考慮在地性市場性他會有自己的翻譯那其實很難是去統一"},{"start":9504.637,"end":9519.37,"text":"我們要求說你全部進來的時候你都要統一用我們的藝名來做呈現所以當時也有先跟委員做過說明我們這邊的部分其實我們現在是有一個票房系統那票房系統這邊的相關資料我們其實會進TED讓他作為AI訓練的那我就問一個問題下一步蜘蛛人出來的時候片商如果要叫蜘蛛俠我們有沒有意見我就只問這一題我們會不會有意見我們讓片商自己決定嘛我們就留下紀錄沒有關係"},{"start":9533.168,"end":9534.957,"text":"可以嗎?你剛剛的回應是這樣嗎?"},{"start":9536.468,"end":9565.155,"text":"希望這一點我們請文化部再研議一下好不好那不管是用什麼樣的方式我們希望還是讓我們台灣有我們習慣的文化這也是我們的記憶嘛好不好那我想接下來還有幾題我跟這個主席爭取一點時間不好意思我盡快這個有非常多的調查都已經開始在關注剛剛羅廷威委員也有提到已經有非常多文化產製影視動畫音樂遊戲的產業開始在用生成式的AI"},{"start":9566.275,"end":9582.772,"text":"已經有國外開始在做更普遍的調查比如說美國有七成二等等請教部長文化部有沒有針對臺灣我們文化內容產業在產製過程中使用AI工具或是提供資料供AI訓練的情形來進行調查有沒有做過市長回答有沒有"},{"start":9591.834,"end":9611.118,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題那其實就這個AI這個文化藝術產業應用生成次AI這個部分我剛才已經有說明過其實我們已經開始在啟動一個指引的一個規範所以是有沒有我說的是產業使用的調查狀況調查不是指引規範指引規範是我下一題喔那產業調查部分因為還沒有因為這是文策院會來做一個處理"},{"start":9618.939,"end":9627.703,"text":"我真的是要提醒希望文化部具體要求可不可以文化內容產業跟AI運用的調查報告可不可以提出來多久可以提出"},{"start":9634.025,"end":9662.843,"text":"三個月希望我們可以看到另外最後提醒部長我們的AI訓練真的在面臨合法資料多元性不足的問題我們全世界的AI在繁體中文在我們中華民國的文化可以說是營養不良文化部是有責任的我們要帶頭提供更多的資料這是我們在用商用的這個現在全台灣可能最多學生在使用的AI說畫一張孫中山先生站在國旗前的照片"},{"start":9664.085,"end":9667.026,"text":"這就是資料不足造成的問題所以請教部長未來可能衍生出的這些侵權的疑慮產業使用的指引"},{"start":9684.645,"end":9697.118,"text":"希望趕快提出那國科會人工智慧基本法的草案速發部有促進資料創新應用的發展條例有沒有徵詢文化部的意見最後一個問題對不起有沒有徵詢文化部的意見好"},{"start":9699.961,"end":9700.482,"text":"接下來我們有請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":9734.78,"end":9740.202,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長跟國家兒童未來館的館長好有請林部長跟館長我們等一下館長好嗎而且我們的時間可以先停一下嗎我們等一下館長好沒問題"},{"start":9760.305,"end":9777.816,"text":"好謝謝部長好館長好因為今天早上有業員之委員有詢問了有關於國家兒童未來館做這個兒童參與的這個形式他有一些批評所以我想因為剛剛他你好館長好像沒有時間可以來做個說明當時為什麼用這種方式來設計所以我把我一點時間給你來做一個說明當時為什麼會做這樣子的規劃可以嗎"},{"start":9789.434,"end":9802.431,"text":"我想,國家交通公園管在筹建過程中不管在建築或者在軟體規劃上我們一直掌握一個原則就是一直要for children, with children, by children我們做的所有事情基本上一定要建築在對"},{"start":9806.089,"end":9825.18,"text":"而同必須要認同我們現在的設計的狀況之下所以我們剛剛的解釋其實是清楚的表達說當我們完成現階段已經完成了建築的戶外遊戲場的設計的時候那我們其實當時連包含連日本的團隊日本的建築師都來到這邊馬上把他們的設計回饋給而台灣的兒童"},{"start":9827.461,"end":9827.741,"text":"我聽起來應該是說設計師設計出了一個設計圖"},{"start":9846.858,"end":9846.938,"text":"是的"},{"start":9860.543,"end":9887.417,"text":"那我想問一下就是說我不知道部長跟館長有沒有去過華盛頓的國家兒童博物館華盛頓沒有好沒關係齁因為我今年呢其實我去了這個華盛頓兒童博物館然後我就有去看一下他們場內的一些配置跟設計那其實它裡面有非常多鬆散素材鬆散素材也就是說它不是一個既定的形式讓大家可以自己來去發展自己的創意所以每一個人看見的事情可能都是相當不一樣的"},{"start":9889.758,"end":9905.924,"text":"每一個活動辦起來都可能會有人批評也會有人非常滿意那我想跟部長跟館長分享幾個回饋這是我從團隊辦理團隊那邊的臉書上面看到他們收集到的一些使用者的回饋家長的回饋所以我希望說也可以平衡一下這個意見"},{"start":9907.915,"end":9932.658,"text":"家長說透過優秀領導師的帶領我看到了我和孩子的不同的面向過程中我也發現了自己似乎總是希望孩子以我所希望的方式做事我忽略了孩子本身的可能性第二孩子覺得活動很好玩孩子媽媽們也覺得孩子們透過環境的素材和做溝通完成任務是很棒的學習也讓孩子知道媽媽知道孩子在外面的樣子"},{"start":9933.539,"end":9960.475,"text":"所以我想要我覺得未來可以做一些說明因為這種參與式的模式還有這種鬆散素材的玩法對於我們台灣的家長來說可能相當有點陌生可是這個對於未來來說不管我們是面對AI世代來說已經有非常多的研究來講創造力才是一個還有跟人溝通解決問題的能力才是最重要的一個能力所以我想這也是兒童未來館所賦予一個最重要的精神所以再來第二個問題館長可以請回了我要問部長"},{"start":9969.096,"end":9982.346,"text":"我剛剛有聽到就是部長在回覆前面的委員有關於這個臺語跟閩南語的事情所以我想要做個說明啦簡單的考一下部長請問一下臺語這個詞是什麼時候出現在臺灣的歷史上面的應該在日治時代吧因為要區隔當時的國語是日語那請問一下閩南語是什麼時候出現的呢"},{"start":9995.623,"end":10003.888,"text":"我跟部長講是在國民政府來台之後才出現的一個名詞喔那這幾年喔其實我們一直在講轉型正義喔原住民用自己的名詞用自己族語的名詞來取代當時他們必須用的一個漢語的名字那其實台語"},{"start":10022.958,"end":10039.5,"text":"就是現在的做法就是找回自己原本的名字我希望部長可以支持這樣子的一個論述因為他其實是後來被偷走他自己原本的名字那所以這個轉型正義是非常非常重要的那其實剛剛前面也有委員有提到說我們的"},{"start":10041.142,"end":10053.05,"text":"抱歉我先拉回來講一下就是說因為這台語是非常重要的那其實我在7月的時候有質詢部長有關於金曲獎我們使用了這個火星文他出不來沒有開好等一下"},{"start":10060.902,"end":10084.658,"text":"上次我在7月3號的時候我質詢部長就是有講到我們金曲獎他用我們講台語的時候他沒有使用政治那當時我有跟部長說拜託可不可以跟作者來做一些溝通如果他願意他一定要堅持用他原本的作詞但是我們可以在下面去把政治來標籤出來但是我在這一次的金曲獎我又再度看到了"},{"start":10085.58,"end":10100.678,"text":"沒有出現我們的政治我想台語是文化部唯一在推的一個主責機關這件事情我想知道到底發生了什麼事情因為當時部長有承諾我說不會在金馬獎跟金鐘獎再出現我想知道中間過程到底溝通的怎麼樣"},{"start":10102.673,"end":10122.279,"text":"還是根本沒有去溝通?有,就是我們也跟轉播單位三立談過這個問題第一他說當時取得他的歌詞就是這樣子他不能改它因為他原來的創作者同意啊但是我們上次講的是說下面可以改加正字嘛是那這個他當時沒有做然後他認為他是一個傳播希望更多人看懂"},{"start":10122.979,"end":10151.181,"text":"但是我想這個金鐘獎跟金馬獎應該文化部都是一個主辦單位我們應該是可以要求的但看起來就是我們沒有做我們沒有去要求這件事情我想因為我們這個台灣母語的發展非常重要所以我希望文化部在一個禮拜內給我和所有的教文委員會一份說明報告我想知道這整個溝通流程中間我們未來如何可以避免金馬獎再度發生可以嗎"},{"start":10151.801,"end":10171.614,"text":"可以啊好 謝謝那再下一個就是還是一樣是母語喔就是在母語的部分呢我們現在在這個台灣童謠場就是今年有做一些巡迴場次那我也看到了這個在文化部有發公文到經濟部還有教育部還有各縣市政府我覺得這是一件很不錯我們有在做"},{"start":10172.535,"end":10187.822,"text":"但是我想了解那114年我們台語專長的規劃場次是什麼呢?內容又是什麼呢?因為我看了經費預算是一模一樣的所以我不是那麼確定說我們到底有沒有加強更多的場次呢?因為我記得我今年的質詢是說20場不夠啦所以可以做個說明嗎?"},{"start":10192.302,"end":10209.375,"text":"這個部分好像是台語台本身所做的活動但是我們在明年的預算裡面會大量做因為這點請委員放心我身邊有蠻多這個用台語寫詩的或者唱歌的朋友他們也實在很感謝我們文化部"},{"start":10210.316,"end":10212.678,"text":"在最近一直支持他們在做各種表演"},{"start":10240.596,"end":10240.616,"text":"﹚台語"},{"start":10260.911,"end":10260.931,"text":"謝謝喔!"},{"start":10283.243,"end":10301.773,"text":"再來還是台語的問題就是說在現在我們其實有很多的家長跟我們說他們的小孩子平常講台語生活語言的能力都OK了可是當他今天要進階像小孩很喜歡暴龍啊恐龍啊雷龍迅猛龍啊這是他很喜歡的東西彗星啊衛星啊太空的幻想世界啊"},{"start":10302.293,"end":10320.875,"text":"他對這件事情有興趣想要去了解的時候科博館大部分講到這些詞的時候都還是用華語那他們想要去找一下那我到底可以怎麼樣跟我小孩講的時候字典裡面也找不到我們是不是可以盡快來針對這些字呢有沒有一些科普的用字呢我們可以把它建錄在詞典裡面"},{"start":10321.476,"end":10343.492,"text":"然後接下來我們可以去做一些訓練讓這些臺語的小孩在學習進階的語文的時候呢自然科學的概念的時候呢他也可以真正用臺語來學因為當年的在日本時代當年的臺灣人就是用臺語來學習這些詞可以嗎這個部分可以在一個月內來做一些說明有份報告來給我說看我們要怎麼樣來處理這個問題"},{"start":10345.496,"end":10368.306,"text":"我們跟教育部來討論尤其是講自然科學這個詞彙我想是詞彙啦因為字典的部分啦字典的部分是不是可以來然後接下來就是下一個部分我們是不是可以針對一些科博館科教館這些單位我們也可以來做一些溝通跟說明我們大概要3個月內3個月嗎因為這個蠻複雜的3個月我們要來教育部科教館等等好嗎3個月"},{"start":10368.886,"end":10395.619,"text":"三個月那我我非常希望就是說因為金馬獎我希望這邊希望部長給我一個具體的承諾當金馬獎這一次一個月多以後我們又要再辦金馬獎的時候我們真的可以看見任何不管使用台語的或是客語的原住民語的表演他下面都可以出現他們原本的政治可以嗎部長可以承諾我這件事嗎我來要求他們部長可以承諾我嗎我們可以做到嗎我們是主辦單位我們可以做到嗎應該做得到好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":10401.764,"end":10418.291,"text":"好謝謝張雅玲委員接下來我們有請郭育晴委員質詢謝謝主席有請部長好有請李部長郭委員你好"},{"start":10424.053,"end":10430.157,"text":"部長好這個金鐘獎不管是節目類或者是我們的戲劇類上個禮拜其實都圓滿落幕了那部長兩場都有去嗎我其實都去了對對對節目節目類的我是從頭待到尾那我們看到其實台灣近幾年來我們拍了很多很多非常好的一些節目那尤其是這一次有得到這個人文紀實節目獎的就是群山紀實群山之島"},{"start":10452.671,"end":10473.147,"text":"跟這個不去會死的他們的第二part2的部分他們也得了三大獎項那整個團隊上台的時候其實他們也特別提到這個節目其實是非常高成本高風險其實在他們拍攝的過程當中當然也有就是協助拍攝主要的拍攝者在去白朗峰的時候不幸靈難這個也讓他們非常感傷那"},{"start":10477.23,"end":10505.789,"text":"我想這個第59屆的這個金鐘獎才剛剛落幕那隔天的這個戲劇類的節目獎有一個比較特殊的是特別貢獻獎那特別貢獻獎的得主呢是我們在業界大家都稱尊稱他這個熊爺就是我們的攝影師那他是在2022年的3月在神仙谷的拍攝過程當中跟另外一位收音師是不幸就是墜崖"},{"start":10507.47,"end":10522.621,"text":"就是離開了大家那他的遺孀特別在領獎的時候有上台特別提到了他希望這個在拍攝現場的安全跟過勞的一個問題也希望資方能夠好好的"},{"start":10523.541,"end":10523.741,"text":"李遠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":10545.55,"end":10545.69,"text":"李遠列席報告"},{"start":10563.004,"end":10591.899,"text":"我不曉得根據這個勞動部的一個專案的檢查的部分因為我們的文化部其實算是我們的主管機關那在全台灣所有的拍攝地不管是攝影棚也好或者是棚外的一些攝影的劇組或者是節目的劇組他們在拍攝的過程當中我不知道這個勞檢的部分文化部這邊有沒有掌握有沒有一些數據或者是對於所謂的盤點的一個數據可以在上半年提供給我們呢"},{"start":10597.548,"end":10616.437,"text":"我大概是2022年的時候提供給勞動部拍攝的片場跟攝影名車因為上個會期3月的時候其實我所知道的文化部的報告是25家而已那現在有增加嗎有62家還有外景場所這個部門一直持續在增加中"},{"start":10616.897,"end":10642.794,"text":"好 那因為上個會期其實我就希望因為我們既然希望有更多的心血能夠投入所謂的影視工作我們也希望給觀眾有更多不同的一個視野跟更廣的一個視聽的環境那我們也希望就是能夠把所謂的職安的規範也納入相關科系的院所當中成為一個必修的一個課程這個部分有跨部會跟教育部來做討論嗎"},{"start":10646.108,"end":10650.957,"text":"這個部分跟教育部或者是跟業者我們想我們都有討論對要討論還是有討論還是還沒討論將來會討論應該有討論吧我們來回答一下"},{"start":10661.173,"end":10677.887,"text":"教育部的部分我們目前是沒有討論但是我們是補助業者公協會去跟業者還有就是跟他們做一個職安的一個教育訓練目前的做法是這樣子那可不可以也跨部會因為我們希望其實有更多因為其實有很多"},{"start":10678.887,"end":10697.404,"text":"對於這個行業他們還是有一定憧憬不管幕前幕後其實他們也希望能夠閉了業之後能夠真正投入業界可是在職安的這個部分其實我覺得是非常重要的是不是有可能可以把這樣子的一個課程也納入大專相關院所那這個部分可以跟教育部再來做討論可以嗎我們馬上跟教育部去協調"},{"start":10700.286,"end":10712.249,"text":"那我想呢接著下來我想要問的其實剛剛這個陳培鈺委員有特別提到我們在對於所謂的自己的創作跟出版業者自己的書籍被所謂的這個應該是說盜版這個問題其實我們文化部"},{"start":10718.211,"end":10742.992,"text":"不能再這麼的消極那另外一個問題我想要提到的就是文化輸出的部分跟文化被挪用的部分我們文化部是不是也應該要拿出一點點自己的態度跟積極跟霸氣出來那我想呢硬硬所謂的台灣文化不要被挪用也不要被弱化有一個例子就是最近其實加拿大的一個使勁秀"},{"start":10744.253,"end":10771.156,"text":"那加拿大的有一個珍奶的產品這個品牌叫做波霸他刻意忽略了珍珠奶茶起源是在台灣刻意忽略了這樣子的一個行銷的一個政策那當然在網路上其實也有很多人有廣泛的一個討論最主要的原因是因為華裔的演員劉思慕他也特別質疑這個波霸奶茶的一個業者他有涉嫌所謂的文化挪用"},{"start":10772.017,"end":10774.68,"text":"的這樣子的一個狀況跟問題啦那我想呢如果部長還記得其實我們的這個巴黎的奧運我們特別也有所謂的文化奧運台灣館波爸奶茶大家為了搶那個福袋啊裡頭那個波爸奶茶的胸針啊"},{"start":10789.497,"end":10805.867,"text":"是每一個人其實都還想要連選手自己本身都要做交換所以不怕那其實是台灣的一個我們特有的一個文化但我們也不容許這個被汙名化或者是文化被挪用而不說明這個部分我們的文化部有更積極更強勢的面對嗎"},{"start":10809.622,"end":10810.322,"text":"國際合作在地化"},{"start":10839.783,"end":10840.605,"text":"就這樣,有一些比較具體的一個"},{"start":10847.69,"end":10875.029,"text":"說明嗎?我的意思是就是將來在面對這樣子有可能會層出不窮的一個問題出現的時候我們的台灣文化要怎麼樣捍衛啊?目前我們大概到今年開始我們比較有能力做大型的展覽會剛剛提到那個巴黎奧運我們的文化我們只能透過這種大型的展會來在不同的地方去展現我們的文化的那種實力然後明年我們在日本會做這個這個"},{"start":10879.651,"end":10899.715,"text":"大阪市博類似這樣的活動我們透過一些跟國際交流有一些其實是跟政策上的語言相關那維護台灣文化其實文化部這個是我們的首要的責任那不管是在國際或者是國內其實都是一樣的我想這個態度要先拿出來再說好嗎可以嗎是可以"},{"start":10901.215,"end":10922.477,"text":"那另外呢最後一點時間我來問一下因為今天等一下大概在我想大概半個小時過後周杰倫的演唱會門票要開始販售了對不對很多人急著要搶票那我先幫一位身心障礙者因為他有特別就是致電到我的辦公室他有特別提到那就是搶票在"},{"start":10924.479,"end":10937.488,"text":"買票這個部分我們的平權的問題對於所謂的身心障礙者是不是可以更加的人性化更加的友善因為呢就他所講的現在是不是還要用傳真然後再回傳然後經過人工的統計審核之後再來回覆這個人工的統計是不是還要跟衛福部這邊來確認他的這個身上的身份通常在回傳到確定已經五天了"},{"start":10954.239,"end":10956.341,"text":"我們其實已經經過多次的溝通像那個售票系統也像我們提出申請開始進行測試"},{"start":10983.558,"end":10985.84,"text":"所以是業者不願意配合還是都在測試的階段嗎?是主辦方不採用這樣子的一個系統嗎?"},{"start":11000.664,"end":11014.782,"text":"謝謝委員提問喔,就是我們大概從11年開始其實確實也跟衛福這邊完成了一個借接希望所有的售票平台都能夠借接這樣子的系統他就可以加速那個身障者購票的時候的身份認證"},{"start":11015.823,"end":11035.639,"text":"那因為其實他每一個系統開發需要一些時間那我們也持續再請各個售票平台都能進行到目前為止大概已經有13家業者是完成測試借接然後上線服務那目前剛有提到的這個是拓園拓園因為他的速度比較慢但他現在也已經跟我們申請了測試賬號我們會請他盡快加速建制完成這個借接服務的提供"},{"start":11040.703,"end":11066.009,"text":"因為這個去年9月其實我們就統計身心障礙者的人數已經超過我們全國的總人數的5%了所以其實不要剝奪他們的一個權利啦那能夠快就快那當然如果是卡在業者的部分我想這個我們的文化部這個部分是不是也可以輔導一些業者能夠盡快的用這樣子的一個系統讓人家在線上就可以來做購票的這樣子的一個動作等一下"},{"start":11067.469,"end":11081.875,"text":"要開始搶票那我想如果這禮拜我沒有再接到這個澄清者的電話表示他有搶票成功如果沒有下次我們再來問好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝郭育勳委員接下來我們有請吳佩儀委員質詢謝謝主席我請文化部李遠部長好有請李部長"},{"start":11099.191,"end":11117.031,"text":"吳委員好部長好剛剛前面很多的委員關心演唱會經濟尤其是很多在野黨委員相當的關心那我想不管是關心什麼樣的文化議題我們最要關心的其實是我們的文化預算"},{"start":11118.032,"end":11139.897,"text":"因為沒有預算什麼事都無法做那我自己在這一屆競選立法委員的選舉公報上面其中一項政見就是我們的文化預算要逐年來提升過去幾年我很樂見看到我們文化預算確實逐年提升但我都認為還不夠所以這一次我看到文化部編的預算是首次"},{"start":11140.737,"end":11149.525,"text":"中華民國史上首次突破了300億這是我們史上最高的文化預算所以我其實心情是相當相當的振奮按照不利來計算我們比去年的預算成長是超過了10%將近12%這也顯示了我們現在的政府對我們文化以及相關"},{"start":11162.296,"end":11174.727,"text":"表演相關產業等等的重視但我覺得最遺憾的就是這一份預算現在史上最高的文化預算提出來了但是目前呢在野黨還在阻擋我們到現在這一份預算還沒辦法送進委員會裡面甚至院會都送不進來審查"},{"start":11182.714,"end":11189.138,"text":"所以我希望今天在這個委員會裏面我們討論非常多跟文化有關的計劃我希望大家要有一個共識我們要有預算的審查好好來討論都可以有不同的意見但至少要讓我們這一份文化的預算有被審查的機會尤其是剛這麼多的在野黨委員葛如君羅廷偉我的好同事們"},{"start":11208.652,"end":11213.218,"text":"還有這個業員之委員你都一直在關心演唱會經濟演唱會經濟不就是影視音產業我們很重要的一部分嗎部長我幫你看了一下你的這個預算因為超過300億的預算你們裡面的新興預算大概是多少"},{"start":11226.926,"end":11241.062,"text":"一星預算我沒有加過捏新星的預算我幫你算了一下大約是53億就是說你今年文化部的預算有六分之一都叫做新星預算預算審查的概念立法院如果沒有通過如果在野黨還在黨的話你的新星預算計畫部長"},{"start":11245.286,"end":11250.269,"text":"一個都不能動喔一個都不能動之喔這不是年度預算喔所以說喔這個新興預算很重要我看到裡面例如你影視音產業有一個續航發展計畫嘛14.99億這新興預算地方藝人場館博物館地方文化館深耕計畫5.85G這個新興預算我們的國家漫畫營運推展這個0.5億這新興預算"},{"start":11270.558,"end":11298.769,"text":"等等的我們很多的六分之一今年送進來預算都叫做信心預算所以我希望我們因為這個國會頻道國人大家都在看不是只有立法委員重視我們希望這個文化部今年提出來首次史上最高的文化預算我們可以趕快送進立法院裡面來大家一起來好好討論那部長你這個業務報告我跟你認真看了12項沃土計畫這份報告我請教是不是有些部分是你親自撰寫的"},{"start":11300.295,"end":11320.95,"text":"我試著 其實我蠻用功的 我帶領我們整個部會 一直在討論那個內容我試著自己也寫了一點 因為我丟出一個蠻難的題目 就是要把整個文化部的不同師整合在一起所以剛開始有點混亂 最後大家終於集合出來這個結果"},{"start":11323.231,"end":11348.348,"text":"這個十二項沃土計畫我們團隊一起一字一句的看我們都感到相當的感動因為我們看到一個是整體的要來去構思文化台灣的一個願景它包含的面向當然非常多我就先舉前面幾個例子例如說第一個向下扎根也就是我們要給下一代更好的藝文土壤我們要打造文化基地你們的目標是台灣至少先列100個文化基地具有經濟及文化觀光潛力的你們要發展影視產業"},{"start":11353.131,"end":11357.054,"text":"流行音樂被單獨列為一個項目我覺得非常的好包括出版表演藝術動漫文資等等的我首先想要請教部長的是因為我們星期一才到國影中心考察看到我們是非常認真專業的在修復我們的這些老影像搶救保存那我看到那個介紹影片其中一段就逗賞這個電影對我來講因為這是我爸爸第一次帶我進電影院看的電影"},{"start":11380.908,"end":11396.64,"text":"所以看到台詞出來一兩句我就非常我有一個記憶就馬上湧上心頭所以我想老電影的修復他其實是可以帶起一代人的集體共同的回憶非常的重要那我們現在呢電影的發展過去"},{"start":11398.041,"end":11414.689,"text":"西門町是我們台灣電影史上非常重要的一個街區包括很多老戲用我自己認識的很多是到二代三代現在接手雖然經營的非常辛苦電影院但是還在努力當中包括我們中影公司最早也是在西門町西門町我"},{"start":11416.23,"end":11443.466,"text":"強烈認為他非常適合納入我們100個文化基地之一然後未來呢包括我們的這個金馬獎我們有金馬電影大師課嘛他去年北野武士之遇和都來台灣這些課程是不是有機會來辦到西門町的電影街像我們的這個我自己以前常常大學時候在看的女影北影啊然後我看我聽過一個泰國的影展人電視電影人他講說他以前年輕的時候在台灣學中文他每天就是窩在西門町看電影"},{"start":11444.286,"end":11454.459,"text":"但現在以全商業來說稍微沒落是不是電影街開來納入你的100個文化基地之一然後我們好好的把整合各項電影相關的資源讓這裡成為下一個培育電影人才的一個場所部長你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":11461.451,"end":11488.447,"text":"我完全同意委員的講法我自己在萬華長大然後我在中影工作8年就是在新門町所以我對新門町非常熟悉我記得我們當年第一次辦臺北電影節1998年的時候就把整個新門町布置起來成為一個臺灣的電影基地所以未來我們絕對會是以新門町那邊作為一個臺灣最早的瞭解臺灣電影歷史的一個基地這沒問題"},{"start":11490.133,"end":11511.085,"text":"這個非常重要那有需要跟地方政府地方的在地的團體協調部分我們非常樂意來幫忙那中央跟地方要合作除了這個基地還有一項也要提醒部長就是我們的影視協拍因為你有提到嘛我們現在中央也要來成立跨部會的然後中央及地方的影視協拍過去我在市議會所以台北市有一個營委會來常常當單一的窗口來協助我們今天拍電影那我們未來我們是怎麼規劃我們中央也會有一個單一窗口嗎"},{"start":11522.284,"end":11544.999,"text":"我們就是其實我們有一個一個協派單位可是我們影視局本身就接受大家來申請我們本身影視局本身這個單位所以你的中央跨部會整合未來會由文化部影視局來當單一窗口我們要拍電影就不用說例如說教育場地我要去問教育部那經濟部有相關的商圈我要去問經濟部未來是不是由文化部來做統一窗口"},{"start":11546.119,"end":11571.195,"text":"其實一直是,包括拍片的片場我跟委員報告我最近最積極的就是找來11個已經拿到我們輔導金的那個聚集的就是問他們說需要什麼幫忙包括要不要我們幫你借東西借場地要不要片場再增加錢做片場所以這點我想委員保證我們影視局的工作量很大但是也包括協拍這一塊"},{"start":11571.795,"end":11594.839,"text":"沒錯太好了我們覺得單一窗口真的很重要因為我們民意代表辦公室我自己常常就是在擔任單一窗口因為很多涉及中央跟地方的然後你又要借路權然後你又要比如說這個停的機車要移動等等要貼公告很多有的是警察局有的是公務局有的是文化局各種單位所以未來我希望中央跟地方我們可以更密切的來合作"},{"start":11595.499,"end":11618.155,"text":"接下來呢因為我非常的關注我們12項沃土計畫裡面的文化基地除了剛剛講到的青門町做電影文化基地之外我也想要請跟部長建議兩個我覺得台北市非常重要的基地因為台北是台灣的首都我們又有全台灣最多的文資古蹟而且呢我覺得台北絕對要作為我們台灣國際化城市的一個窗口"},{"start":11618.855,"end":11626.907,"text":"那我認為我們城中區很適合來打造成博物館文化基地也就結合你12項沃土計劃當中的要來去結合博物館藝文場館像城中區部長跟你分享我們有局員百貨"},{"start":11634.998,"end":11661.75,"text":"是比台南的林百貨還要早一天開幕所以是全台灣目前最早的百貨公司在日本時代成立的最近正要開始來進行文字的修復所以未來也需要文化部大力的幫忙再來我認為晨曦以蒙賈為基地也非常適合作為一個文化的基地其中像我們寶島歌后紀錄俠部長你一定比我更清楚紀錄俠首次的演出就是在蒙賈的河岸"},{"start":11662.29,"end":11673.304,"text":"那時候還是露天歌廳就是在我們現在長沙街華華南路口那一個水門部長你的看法呢我們這些地方也是不是就是未來你們要打造文化基地來去評估的一些這個潛力的據點"},{"start":11675.458,"end":11704.614,"text":"沒有錯比如說整個西門町如果你要看那個漫畫這個地方他也有茶的文化他也有博物館的文化像我們講中央電影公司以前是日治時代第一個看電影的地方所以等等萬華本身的涵蓋的那個文化面非常多所以謝謝你的建議其實我當初會要做文化基地也就是因為長期以來我們也累積了蠻多社區再造地方創生等等還有就博物館升級"},{"start":11705.694,"end":11730.339,"text":"這點我們會請各方來推薦我們最後我們會把它選出來好謝謝部長因為我看到你們講文化基地很重要是它也同樣要具有經濟跟觀光的潛力那我剛提到這幾個都是現在臺北市國際觀光客造訪的前十大景點之一所以我認為非常的合適那也希望未來我後續來持續跟你們討論有必要我們就請到現場來會談趕快來把它打造起來好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":11736.477,"end":11740.378,"text":"好謝謝吳佩儀委員接下來我們有請吳春成委員質詢好有請部長好我們有請李部長部長好吳委員你好你辛苦了"},{"start":11761.144,"end":11777.34,"text":"剛剛那個配議委員就提到這個預算的問題那其實這個韓院長已經召開了5次的協商針對這種預算還吃了和解飯然後盡心盡力"},{"start":11778.681,"end":11795.173,"text":"但是行政院寸土不浪所以有點卡在這裡不過這個我想跟我們無關啦凱撒的歸凱撒,文化的歸文化好不好所以希望我們的文化政策推動"},{"start":11796.854,"end":11815.949,"text":"是超黨派的不要受到這些其實那個是一個政爭的影響部長我一直很尊敬你是一個文化人所以文化人有文化的理想文化的夢想所以呢我覺得還是本屋初心我們做好文化工作"},{"start":11817.41,"end":11830.812,"text":"那這個我問部長一下齁這個因為上禮拜是國發會發布的最新的人口推估嘛部長有看到那個資料嗎有看到齁所以台灣的人口危機"},{"start":11832.287,"end":11832.307,"text":"委員會議員長"},{"start":11856.689,"end":11880.516,"text":"這是一個大環境整個大的那這個人口危機我標題叫文化當者部長你認同嗎認同你認同嗎所以其實這個是我們在做文化工作的以前的叫省舵天下大事引領時代風騷這就是一個文化人的一個"},{"start":11882.697,"end":11902.668,"text":"這個就是大家都可以看到我們這個臺灣人口少子化高齡化已經定型了這個過去花了很多的時間在政府推動少子化顯然是沒有發揮很大的效果我們的少子化今年到了0.87這個是這個更加的惡化"},{"start":11908.956,"end":11936.314,"text":"那從這個少子高齡化社會已經定型了不用再懷疑了所以我們要為這個未來的這個社會去重塑因為這個變化為什麼需要文化因為過去金字塔型的以這個兒童為主的那個社會已經變成到金字塔型的這個社會的變化太大了那需要文化的重塑觀念的重塑"},{"start":11936.974,"end":11949.946,"text":"所以這一點 這個沒有做好的話市場會萎縮 企業會倒閉 負稅加重 撫養加重 消費消退這是一個全面性的 這個是一個國家的危機 國安危機 這個部長認同吧"},{"start":11952.448,"end":11968.484,"text":"完全認同現在為什麼我一直在推壯世代因為解放就在這裡因為未來增加的是這一方面的人我們一定要往增加的人來找解放不是往減少的地方來找解放"},{"start":11969.025,"end":11982.016,"text":"是嗎?而且這裡掌握三分之財富所有的資源在這裡一定要把這裡龐大的我們視為無用的人把它激發出來這才是未來救國之道部長認同嗎?"},{"start":11984.019,"end":12004.582,"text":"：議員"},{"start":12004.742,"end":12033.261,"text":"都是戰後嬰兒草領導出來的這些人都邁向60歲了超過60歲了就過程現在所謂高齡者我們好好的善用他們的文化資產這就是國外提出的警訊因為人口結構的明顯已經變成長期化了他要協同各部會來針對少子化勞動市場經濟產業財政收支社會環境這些議題都跟人口有問題"},{"start":12035.402,"end":12048.089,"text":"這個請問跟文化部的關係其實我在上個會期我就質詢過希望文化部把壯世代的文化產業需求納入這個調查報告當中不曉得這個計畫進行如何"},{"start":12055.64,"end":12058.581,"text":"我不是要給你們邀請,我是要跟你們同工一起把這事情做好"},{"start":12086.31,"end":12113.385,"text":"另外一個在勞動力上面因為這不是開玩笑的事情台灣的高齡者勞參率亞洲最低再來的話這個是國防會的推估報告當中其實現在45歲以上的勞參率已經成為主流已經高於45歲以下的但是我們的社會很多像104什麼聘用員工45歲以上都不聘用了你知道嗎"},{"start":12114.676,"end":12127.723,"text":"我們都認為這些都是高齡者是無用就是退化的人了我們企業很多但是他已經成為社會主力如果繼續在這樣的一個價值觀念未來是找不到勞工的"},{"start":12129.363,"end":12149.754,"text":"找不到勞工的這個對經濟所以這個我也跟勞動部也提到了勞動部認為我們現在勞動部把45歲定義為中高齡高齡欸45歲是什麼是開始老人復老代退那他覺得這是一個文化問題啦這認為這文化問題所以呢而且"},{"start":12153.476,"end":12176.216,"text":"普遍的企業是歧視高齡者政府帶頭其實解放就在文化部了上次我們有公聽會也很感謝徐宜君次長全程參與了4個小時也表達了對壯世代強調壯世代多元文化的參與還有對這個市場的重視"},{"start":12179.622,"end":12208.028,"text":"但是呢我們在做壯世代的文化調查各部會現在有13個部會加入壯世代各部會加入文化部的回覆是預算是零那所以呢OK我現在沒有但我知道文化部是很清楚該怎麼做比如說性平性平的這樣子的當你要引導整個對性平的歧視的時候文化部就推出你看這麼多的作為"},{"start":12209.488,"end":12231.953,"text":"這麼多的作為所以我相信這個壯世代是一個高齡解放的文化運動它的本質就是高齡解放的文化運動那文化不要當這個時代的起手所以呢這個如果你想做我相信可以規劃出很多"},{"start":12232.853,"end":12248.387,"text":"很多具體的作為各種展場各種的工具文化部很多都包括電影包括音樂包括什麼藝術都可以去表達引導這個文化但是呢現在我可以看得出來文化部還是把它當作一個邊緣的議題"},{"start":12250.089,"end":12250.549,"text":"文化部部長"},{"start":12269.404,"end":12294.156,"text":"這個委員寬限了三個月針對這樣子的人口變化壯世代的真正的面對對於我們的一個文化的政策可以提出這個方案來可以嗎部長三個月其實我們在許多計畫裡都跟這個有關只是沒有把委員講的中壯世代這個range把它變成是一個好像弱勢團體那我們可以整理出不是弱勢團體它是強壯的團體只是你們把它當弱勢團體"},{"start":12298.058,"end":12326.653,"text":"我們的文化界把這些人當弱勢團體因為你剛剛講文化部編的是零我覺得不是我們是把它分散在所有的活動裡但是呢我們把它整理出來給各位議員但是這是一個重點的議題這是一個有策略性的議題因為問題的發生都在這裡解放也在這裡我們經常政府喜歡把它打散我是文化是全民性的你全民性交360度策略360度叫原地打轉策略就叫做沒有策略"},{"start":12327.253,"end":12346.466,"text":"沒有想法想到什麼做什麼就叫全面性策略問題已經就是在這高齡者壯世代不是特殊族群他是高齡者讓我們去汙名化以後叫做壯世代這樣子一個認知不要把壯世代當作一個特殊就是高齡社會來臨的然後這個跟文化部"},{"start":12347.326,"end":12348.506,"text":"接下來我們有請范雲昭委質詢"},{"start":12378.461,"end":12381.256,"text":"謝謝召委有請部長有請李部長"},{"start":12386.764,"end":12387.365,"text":"范委員你好"},{"start":12417.485,"end":12442.539,"text":"首先外面有點誤會就是國發基金跟我們的輔導金其實國發基金是一個投資的概念投資就是剛開始是投資公司後來同意我們投資專案所以我要非常感謝我們的國發會的劉主委我一上任第一件事情就拜託他給我們下一個100億為什麼呢因為大家都知道如果我們沒有足夠的錢我們完全"},{"start":12443.559,"end":12471.781,"text":"會在這個產業中消失因為韓國跟日本的那個投在文創產業包括影視產業的錢是遠遠超過我們10倍20倍的所以這個100億非常重要就是我們得用這個100億來去投資鼓勵民間的資金引到我們整個文創產業先是建立幾個基金比如說我前面已經報告過中華電信遠傳大哥大我們先去尋找這些已經擁有這個"},{"start":12474.043,"end":12474.564,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12491.084,"end":12507.858,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":12507.958,"end":12529.299,"text":"另外三分之二就要民間拿錢出來所以這一百億第一件事情就是做這個第二件事情就是找國際合作找國際合作亞洲韓國或者國際的美國他們那些大公司我們也跟他一起合作最希望就是我們的影片拍出來可以賣到全世界的市場那這個真的需要我們政府先拿出第一筆錢"},{"start":12530.16,"end":12552.103,"text":"好那謝部長那聽起來部長有非常積極的爭取到就是這樣子一個100億那希望國發基金可以真的點燃我們文創產業的火花那當然也希望後續申請各方面的部分都能夠讓我們文化工作者覺得能夠更符合他們的需求那我相信文化部在努力中"},{"start":12553.103,"end":12578.132,"text":"再來我也想請問部長這個黃流票的部分那部長應該有注意到就是其實就雨多田光這個新聞報告中你就有看到說的確已經開始有這個實名制而且會大幅減少不正常的搶票行為之前我們本來希望修法讓文化部在法規中就要求實名制可是當時文化部是說用"},{"start":12578.652,"end":12604.731,"text":"護理要所以我知道你們在鼓勵可是我要講的另外一個部分就是說實名制如果不落實的話目前的檢舉制度看起來文創法修法後就是黃牛還是很猖獗這個以周杰倫的票價為例不知道部長有沒有注意到比如說原本四樓座位的票價是1880在黃牛仍然猖獗之後四樓的"},{"start":12606.152,"end":12626.699,"text":"隨機票價之後就變成2萬6那我們辦公室繼續去了解的情況就發現說問題出在說第一個我們目前鼓勵業者實名制售票的這個成效還是不佳第二個就是檢舉難以成案"},{"start":12627.739,"end":12637.543,"text":"我們收到陳情就是我今年4月也有問文化部目前檢舉的標準真的太嚴格了以你們創造的這個表單來講你等於是要先買黃牛票才能夠查黃牛票我也問了文化部文化部留給我很長的內容我發現文化部留給我的內容讀起來看好像怎麼改善"},{"start":12654.349,"end":12683.094,"text":"你們就是一下修要說要根據修社會秩序維護法一下就是說文創這個上次修過的法還不夠還要再修我是其實是覺得有一點點失望欸上一次就是好不容易大家這樣大修之後可是當時文化部的版本沒有預測到執行還是有問題現在跟我們提的方式說不然修社會秩序維護法要不然文創法什麼某一條還要再修那到底"},{"start":12683.934,"end":12711.714,"text":"有沒有可能在就是真的要再修法還是你們目前的行政作為就是降低檢舉門檻是不是可以做到的因為就我自己來研究的話也許你就降低檢舉的門檻要針對黃牛的圖利行為而非販售事後才追查因為我看你們給我的資料臺北市光是資料不全的就600多件那已經資料齊全的"},{"start":12712.535,"end":12740.845,"text":"如果沒有記錯的話兩三百件中好像只有九件各位數被裁罰光是資料符合之後都只有就是這麼低的筆數被裁罰那資料不全的那個以台北市你們給我的資料中法上路之後到現在六百多件都是資料不全你是不是可以針對這個部分好好的檢討那我現在提供兩個方向部長看看是不是可以"},{"start":12742.641,"end":12756.369,"text":"實名制還是要更積極的加強鼓勵業者使用就像我剛剛講的那個報導中他如果學習日本就是並用實名制的話大幅下降那業者的困難到底是什麼也許我們可以一起來協助為什麼他們不想要用實名制"},{"start":12759.491,"end":12785.219,"text":"那第二個檢舉的標準是不是可以落實那我這邊提兩個就是能不能夠就以他的行為面在販售而不是說我要釣魚因為我今天買到票才有第幾排這幾個位子嗎那買到票之後不就變成共犯了他就不會來檢舉了那如果這個行為出現的時候然後轉售票合理成本的種類跟比例那這個部分是不是也能夠明定那部長是不是可以簡短回答因為我待會還有一題要請問您"},{"start":12788.034,"end":12788.054,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":12803.661,"end":12818.189,"text":"好那請部長一個月內給我一個報告好不好初步的報告可以好那另外我想那個剛剛有委員談到性別平等部長應該知道我們是亞洲最性別平等的國家可是我們卻沒有一個"},{"start":12818.949,"end":12847.696,"text":"國家級的婦女性別人權館我們有這麼多的重要歷史世界然後跟人權婦女性別團體的努力那我們辦公室去了解說南韓在婦女權益比我們差很多可是他們已經有婦女歷史館戰爭與女性人權博物館不管是慰安婦或者轉型正義中的女性的資料那烏克蘭也都有就是相關的而是他們性別平權的指數都還不比我們"},{"start":12848.416,"end":12860.983,"text":"所以請問部長如果台灣要設立婦女性別人權管您覺得可以如何規劃呢?第一個您就是認不認同應該要這樣管第二個如果要規劃您覺得可以怎麼規劃呢?"},{"start":12863.533,"end":12889.548,"text":"其實台灣的婦女的人權的確在全世界的排名是非常前面的所以如果我們要成立一個人權管可能他就是要一個我們在性別的奮鬥的過程中有足夠的歷史但是這個社管這件事情牽涉到行政院的一些管所的那個結構這點你問我要如何規劃我一下還沒想出來"},{"start":12891.349,"end":12911.594,"text":"對部長你們還沒想出來但是我謝謝你很認同那你還沒想出方法我最近想了半天想到一個方法跟部長請議我知道你們這個人權館展示的典藏大樓在4月開工那雖然開工前那部長應該有聽聞有一些爭議嘛人權館有不同的想法可是看起來已經來不及了"},{"start":12912.074,"end":12939.028,"text":"就是就在開工了因為這是一個重要的工程又有預算所以我想到的是文化部是不是可以評估那當然也找我們婦女跟人權團性別團體一起人權團一起討論這中間居然這麼多層的話有沒有可能舉例來說譬如說一層他就放在婦女性別人權這個主題上我覺得我今天只是跟你說是不是文化部可以去評估看看部長覺得呢"},{"start":12940.509,"end":12957.577,"text":"其實我剛剛也被質詢到說這個地方是白色恐怖為主的一些展覽那事實上我來到文化部之後我就希望我們人權館開始推出大型的電影就是講人權電影人權電影裡面就有像剛剛您提到的婦女與性別的人權"},{"start":12959.438,"end":12973.274,"text":"人選不再限於白色恐怖這樣的歷史記錄所以您剛才提的我不敢立刻回答你是因為我來的時候他已經開始動工了我得了解一下他裡面原來的一些內容我再回答你"},{"start":12974.235,"end":13003.716,"text":"當然我想其實地點是不是在那個部分可能有很多要考慮的那我想今天就請部長能夠承諾開始研議第一個婦女性別人權管的可能規劃第二個那很明確的展出應該要含納各歷史時期推動爭取女性權益跟性別平權的過程這樣可以嗎可以那部長我這個時間多一點好了那個是不是您覺得多少時間可以給我一個初步的報告呢"},{"start":13004.834,"end":13012.34,"text":"大概3個月要不要好沒問題3個月因為這個好事需要多一點時間來琢磨謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝你謝謝好謝謝發言委員那請部長先回座現在我們開始處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案即一案請宣讀"},{"start":13026.347,"end":13054.733,"text":"臺灣嘻哈音樂在近年有令人瞩目之發展因此敬請演員以下事項一文策院對嘻哈等流行音樂產業加強支持如投資媒合促進二文化部影視局應與文策院一同提升對流行音樂之輔導補助再創作音樂相關IP展演與國際傳播各方面予以支持以拓展台流的國內與海外市場提案人吳佩義林一錦曾培育宣讀完畢"},{"start":13059.554,"end":13080.355,"text":"請問一下我們提案的委員還有各位委員有沒有補充或要說明的意見好沒有那部長有沒有補充我們就遵照辦理好那沒有意見我們照案通過那我們的這個提案如果有委員要補簽請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄那接著我們繼續進行質詢那下一位我們有請陳清輝委員"},{"start":13087.748,"end":13091.464,"text":"主席好我想請部長好有請李遠部長"},{"start":13096.372,"end":13105.416,"text":"陳委員好部長我今天想詢問您的是一個幾乎全台灣的人現在正在做的我們正在質詢的當下呢12點周杰倫的票開賣那我們辦公室也是一陣強啊他們前面是先當機當機五分鐘那過了五分鐘以後告訴你全部賣完了那當然這"},{"start":13120.202,"end":13143.337,"text":"這幾個禮拜以來網絡有許多的亂象我也跟部長講一下比如說有學校的老師呢他就跟學生說我們禮拜三提早10分鐘下課大家去找一個網速夠快的地方好嗎然後獲得學校的一陣好評也有網友在粹上面呢宣傳自己製作的搶票練習小工具結果有200萬人在上面練習那"},{"start":13145.979,"end":13169.845,"text":"我覺得比較遺憾的是之後文化部可能還要結合許許多多的部門剛講的是去文但真實的是有黃牛很早就開始販售而且是販售兩倍以上的價格還教你先匯錢如果你先匯錢最後有拿到票就算了還有網紅他自己拍片哭訴說最後居然是被詐騙了那"},{"start":13172.086,"end":13180.157,"text":"如果未來這個詐騙的狀況越來越多我也想知道文化部要如何跟其他的部門結合來因應這樣子的亂象"},{"start":13183.297,"end":13202.324,"text":"其實我們文化部能做的就是不斷的修正這種包括跟地方政府的合作還有透過律師去了解怎麼樣去懲處目前我覺得我們的速度就是的確我們的程序比較慢一點所以目前已經被我們處罰大概有75件然後大概罰了500多萬"},{"start":13204.705,"end":13205.305,"text":"我現在越來越討厭那個周杰倫了"},{"start":13221.823,"end":13240.001,"text":"因為其實我訪問過他但是因為他這麼紅的結果就是我今天從第一場問到現在還是說然後這好像蠻無解的我現在蠻狠的部長剛剛講的一些方法我等一下也想給部長一些實際的建議啦我們也不要一直是批評嘛"},{"start":13241.462,"end":13268.74,"text":"好那這個當然這個剛其他委員有講我還要先買到黃牛票我才可以檢舉黃牛票好但是買完以後呢我剛講大家是在意有沒有被詐騙他買完如果看了開心其實他是不會檢舉他只有真的這個負評他覺得負面感受不好他才會來檢舉因此你收到這樣子的檢舉是不太可能會有很多啦因為他就已經先買了好"},{"start":13269.881,"end":13292.204,"text":"在這邊也有其他人說這個文化創意發展法的規定你當然這個定義就已經寫得不清楚所以你會嘗試想要修改這個定義嗎因為超過這個票價現在他們就說是委託或者是服務等等的那剛你有提到說各縣市政府結果呢"},{"start":13293.065,"end":13308.361,"text":"我們辦公室有接獲到縣市政府的吹哨者把您發的公文給我們看那文化部發的公文的確是文化部的這個口吻是大家一般人看不懂的沒有講白話文你們說我念給您聽您說有關代購代搶"},{"start":13312.365,"end":13330.278,"text":"人應就行為人是否以代購代搶之法律關係包裝違法行為考量各個因素依權值為綜合判斷您看完這個文化部的公文是不是有聽君一席話如聽一席話的感覺"},{"start":13331.874,"end":13350.657,"text":"因為在這個法治國家我們都請律師來幫我們認定那個法所以他會給我們定一些的確是蠻複雜的一種認定因為你要考慮到人生的那個自由跟那個個資嘛所以我們的方法是的確蠻複雜可是都是因為法律的要求"},{"start":13351.454,"end":13366.425,"text":"是啊如果你要發剛剛這樣子的公文給地方政府地方政府表達看不懂那下來呢現在變成我們的黃牛他現在變成他在主打他不是詐騙集團所以像這個他就會在下面有很多正評"},{"start":13367.406,"end":13374.751,"text":"有跟他買過票的人一直去認證說這一家絕對不是詐騙集團然後他現在已經服務粉絲最多即將邁向五萬人所以這個也會變成年輕人對文化部的抱怨因為五萬人想買票想要一起促進我們台灣的文化產業結果通通不得其門而入只能來找這個代購大王最後我只是要跟部長們來交流一下因為"},{"start":13393.385,"end":13414.903,"text":"在這邊呢你看所有法院喔全台灣法院的判決結果最後只有4件還不是全部都判有罪所以這件事情已經這麼嚴重可是到現在也只有4件所以壞人走在前面就跟部長講的一樣那這邊法官也說如果沒有好的法源他真的是很難去判斷所以這邊也請部長多加油好嗎謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":13417.884,"end":13431.877,"text":"所以部長是不是可以未來考慮出一個含釋清清楚楚我們把標準定出來比如說代購費代買費超過多少錢或是大量購買多大量就一律來認定為實質上的黃牛"},{"start":13434.102,"end":13434.382,"text":"接下來我們有請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":13469.818,"end":13470.639,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請部長"},{"start":13477.458,"end":13498.477,"text":"兩位你好部長好我們來討論我們的國家漫畫博物館那麼在去年4月的時候我們經過臺中隊的委員還有我們臺中市政府尤其是我們盧市長大家一起努力終於在4月份的時候去年4月份拍板落腳"},{"start":13499.758,"end":13522.112,"text":"在我們臺中的歷史建築行務所的這個貫射群那我們的面積是2.75公頃尤其我們師傅在去年11月份也將產權移交在去年11月份移交給文化部這是一個美麗的一個成果也就是中央跟地方一起努力打造臺灣的這個漫畫文化"},{"start":13524.073,"end":13553.348,"text":"的推廣跟保存的這個基地非常重要那麼在去年年底的時候呢東側的園區也已經開始來舉辦展覽展覽之後真的是非常的感動就成為打卡的重要的這個這個點那所以呢本期要繼續我們來討論也就是目前你修正的進度是如何我們新建的場館它的進度現在到底如何呢請教說明"},{"start":13554.69,"end":13574.79,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為這個由於有這個漫畫館的籌備書成立之後使得我們整個漫畫的活動等等已經積極的進行目前我們編的預算到明年應該是繼續修繕另外一區那新建場館的預算還沒有編列吧我印象中新建場館的預算還沒有編列"},{"start":13576.181,"end":13576.201,"text":"時間暫停"},{"start":13604.484,"end":13627.865,"text":"你請李清楚你講的答非所問內容不一來重新倒帶吧請做說明到目前為止我們修繕的進度如何新建場館的進度如何應該這樣講就是我們第一區已經修好了現在我們要開始修第二區對那我們邊的預算是包括修第二區跟新建場館的規劃對"},{"start":13630.687,"end":13633.509,"text":"您嚇我一跳耶,您是什麼都沒有的嚇我一跳"},{"start":13648.641,"end":13649.422,"text":"您要解釋這個本席聽到要並行都要"},{"start":13672.377,"end":13686.607,"text":"所以我希望我們的指標跟目標我們要專案去嚴格管控好不好因為這個是我們現在很重要很重要的一個點我們的進度我們也會隨時追蹤那也請部長這邊把你們預估的KPI的流程時程向下請"},{"start":13693.211,"end":13693.531,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13723.151,"end":13724.352,"text":"比如說我就拿漫畫來講好了"},{"start":13740.467,"end":13765.285,"text":"我們漫畫開始有大概2018年開始有輔導金鼓勵大家畫漫畫由政府給錢之外我們現在編列一筆預算在翻譯漫畫成為不同的文字出國去那的確到目前為止跟過去比的話台灣的漫畫可以賣到全世界各國的比例比過去高但是還不夠那這有時候我三任之後心裡非常著急覺得要做的"},{"start":13766.986,"end":13792.221,"text":"你談到這裡我插了你的話這個就是我們的共同點這是我們非常有的資產而且非常好全世界都喜歡我們的漫畫人才非常的多在這個部分我們要怎麼樣去協助經濟讓他們都能夠正如你說的增加國際的競爭力在我們的外交產業的這個部分不要只有一成就太浪費了這個必須讓政府"},{"start":13794.042,"end":13794.403,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":13811.705,"end":13812.926,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員我們有請徐富奎委員質詢"},{"start":13845.254,"end":13847.971,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請李部長有請李部長"},{"start":13852.746,"end":13875.711,"text":"徐委員你好 部長午安 部長大概兩年半前我們的屏東的老館定 蘇貞昌前院長他去看了我們的恆春古城那當時有跟文化部有合訂了一個4.3億的一個修復古城的一個案子然後預計是今年底要完工 那請教部長目前這個案子的進度"},{"start":13876.741,"end":13890.728,"text":"目前其實我自己還跑了一趟那個恆春古城去看整個目前的狀況其實修葬的狀況非常好那能不能2024年完工目前的工期如何我想請這個文字局局長報告"},{"start":13893.201,"end":13917.999,"text":"徐委員現在目前我2024大概沒有辦法完工他原因是真正我們做下去之後城牆上面的那個馬道挖下去我們可以說直接講金玉其外敗絮其中整個的裡面需要修復的時間比我們預期的狀況更加糟糕而且花的時間可能要更長一點但是我們還是這個是一個那目前預估我們的期程大概什麼時候可能要到2027"},{"start":13920.261,"end":13944.02,"text":"要再三年的時間對因為這是一個國定古蹟而且範圍2.6公里那我們有四大計劃城牆的修復還有整個交通的改善還有環境景觀工程這又涉及到周邊居民都是民宅我們的協調要跟民眾這個花了非常多的時間就是跟我們原先預期的真的是在時間上差距蠻大的"},{"start":13945.917,"end":13960.665,"text":"在這邊的話本期我們要提醒一下部長 這個明年是我們恆春建成一百五十週年 大家都要記住我們應該是可以局部開放參與這個一百五十週年 因為我自己跑了一趟才發現"},{"start":13962.517,"end":13984.94,"text":"﹚議員："},{"start":13985.08,"end":14010.736,"text":"平東建成一百五十周年我們文化部一定會全力配合包括這個古城局部開放好部長那另外本期這邊也有跟我們的這個鄉親有一些意見包括我們有一些身障的一些朋友他們坐輪椅想說要去繞的時候可能有一些無障礙設施的規劃要改進另外針對鄰近是不是有相關的一些公廁設施的部分是不是可以一併納入來規劃"},{"start":14012.057,"end":14030.395,"text":"是我上次去看就在考慮那個神經障礙跟廁所我們上次去就是這些問題要把它解決可能有幾個地方有好幾個地方可以選擇對要一併來規劃啦是因為有些附近有些人潮比較多的地方對可以結合一下地方的廟宇或是一些景點來做一個規劃是"},{"start":14032.017,"end":14034.178,"text":"其實這是最 我們面臨到最困難的問題 我想請文字局局長回答"},{"start":14052.085,"end":14076.344,"text":"整個在工程上面如果涉及到民宅的部分我們是做溝通協調那有一些是我們希望涉及到他的土地的部分能夠跟他溝通他願意讓我們來做的話我們會優先來做那其他部分我們持續溝通再後續再來做因為這個不克服其實對這個修復股產是一個很可惜的一件事情因為我們周邊有一些景觀的綠美化一定還是要用到一些"},{"start":14077.125,"end":14102.892,"text":"．"},{"start":14102.892,"end":14104.233,"text":"謝謝徐副委員接下來我們有請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":14135.588,"end":14138.809,"text":"謝謝主席有請李遠李部長好有請李部長郭委員你好部長好部長剛剛許委員提到台南的部分台南400不論是從400的角度或從1264的角度都有它的意義的存在不過台南之所以會有它的整個台南學的一個基本的一個風範其實來自於它文化資產的保存非常的好"},{"start":14160.396,"end":14181.366,"text":"那因此本席對於文化資產的保持相對而言有一定程度的重視譬如講我在財政委員會當中我會特別去考察這棟建築物是傅朝欣老師非常非常稱許的一棟建築物是屬於合作金庫但是偏偏這些金融機構也好國營事業也好政府機關也好他們雖然有擁有這麼多的"},{"start":14183.187,"end":14196.108,"text":"文化資產但是卻不能好好的保存我就想藉由教育文化部長能不能從院的高度或從部的一個角度來說來思考一下就公部門當中最擁有文化資產的部分要如何去進行保持有沒有部長請"},{"start":14197.455,"end":14225.909,"text":"其實我們在文資局裡面編的最多預算就是屬於這種全台灣各地的這種文資可是它的產權有些屬於是私人的有些屬於我們無法去干預的那我舉一個例子好了沒有私人的問題就是以過去最早期的這個關務署當中有一個溫泉招待所後來它就變成一個育成中心本期就至少會看過兩次討論過結果他們告訴我的答案就是沒有錢"},{"start":14226.889,"end":14242.243,"text":"他這一個溫泉招待所位於北投地區當中呢是超過120年就我理解的部分應該是最久的可是卻是荒廢最久到現在為止啊原文資的身份據我理解都還不定還沒有被確定那"},{"start":14242.583,"end":14268.6,"text":"到現在為止考察完三年之後呢他目前為止還只編了明年只有250萬要進行修復那根本不可能的事情那至少一般預估大概一億之多可是他就是有那麼高價值的文化資產可是卻沒有任何一個公務機關有任何一個辦法來進行保存你不覺得這很諷刺嗎部長有些單位他的那個管理單位是在地方政府有些土地我跟您講的都是中央政府中央政府對"},{"start":14270.407,"end":14286.159,"text":"所以我要請您就任部長你來能不能從文化部的一個角色當中就中央政府當中我們一直期待民間要保留一個文化資產就費盡所有心思為什麼中央坐擁這麼多的文化資產的寶山而讓他在那邊荒廢呢這沒有道理嘛不是嗎部長"},{"start":14287.478,"end":14305.059,"text":"國有財產署當中省紀部之前已經有提過一些糾正所以說國有財產署已經把非公用文化資產344處當中用6年的時間要花8.5億元同樣的方式你不能複製在其他的單位當中來做這樣的一個努力嗎部長有沒有可能"},{"start":14309.54,"end":14326.814,"text":"其實我們的文資局的預算只要你多編一點給我我就可以我再說的部分不是只有你討論文資局的預算我是說你部的高度你應該有那個使命政府的文化資產跟你應該都息息相關你不能用部會的角度來思考這個問題"},{"start":14328.255,"end":14347.989,"text":"我是不是可以請文字局局長回答我不用了我沒有時間了那個請你會後給我一點時間我最後跟您就這樣一部分本席在台南的地區是位處於這個曾文熙的一個沿岸南北岸曾文熙的沿北岸從最右邊的這個那個左鎮化石文化園區到"},{"start":14350.766,"end":14368.887,"text":"山上水道博物館以及你們中央給預算的這些文化資產園區那以至於到西邊的一個研博館等等周遭的整個博物館群是相當豐沛但是都留意各點各點的一個經營即便南科區的一個史前博物館南科分館的部分也是都如此啊"},{"start":14369.267,"end":14383.808,"text":"並沒有管管串連或大管帶小管的一個跡象也就是說這裡頭缺乏一個總體一個專案的概念過往你們曾經有做過一個歷史再造的一個經費但是歷史再造經費當初呢是用"},{"start":14384.189,"end":14384.209,"text":"部長．"},{"start":14401.741,"end":14416.943,"text":"完全是因為我來之後我想要推出100個文化基地的概念就跟這個完全一樣就是同一個區域有好幾個點然後把它整合在一起然後我們固定辦活動這點我完全認同"},{"start":14418.564,"end":14431.153,"text":"謝謝部長的認同這個聚落的概念還有一個帶重的概念的可能性在你未來的整個施政的過程當中能不能落實這非常重要而這一條戲當中其實有三個面向來可以做思考第一個他有無形的文化資產票銷翁準燒黃船"},{"start":14434.416,"end":14456.011,"text":"還有一個考古的路徑這三個這種分配性如果能夠形成整個臺南的一個文化的複度性一來可以創造一個新的可能性二來可以減壓臺南是目前一個光光的壓力跟資源分配跟平衡的發展有沒有可能不長有沒有可能列入專案的考量"},{"start":14456.771,"end":14457.452,"text":"接下來我們有請王宏威委員質詢"},{"start":14491.226,"end":14494.894,"text":"謝謝主席,我請李遠部長。我們就請李部長。"},{"start":14501.735,"end":14524.105,"text":"啊不長在我們台北市的時候啊也是影視音學校的啊校長所以對影視音應該也有一定的了解那我現在呢就要告訴部長一件事情這個當然是在你啊就任之前發生的事大家都知道就是一個電視劇淩日戰爭哈"},{"start":14526.926,"end":14553.52,"text":"在我們的文化部的黑潮計畫拿了大量的補助但是呢這個臨日戰爭的拍攝公司臨日文創他的資本額120萬而且是去年5月份才成立的那麼大概在去年的年底他就可以確定可以拿到這個補助"},{"start":14554.727,"end":14578.193,"text":"而問題是我們這個黑潮計畫它的執行時間應該從今年才開始所以我在這邊要提醒部長的是這個是在你就任之前所發生的事情我擔心的是這個案子你看這個整個的軌跡是不是很像操司2.0版"},{"start":14580.283,"end":14597.627,"text":"過去我們有出現資本額200萬的小吃店可以去承包我們政府的這個採購案快篩劑的採購案我們也可以看到50萬的超市成立沒有多久立刻就可以拿到標案那現在也同樣啊這家公司成立短短"},{"start":14604.984,"end":14619.62,"text":"為了拍劇才成立然後馬上就可以拿到我們文化部超過7000萬的補助而且這家公司他的背景真的陣容非常堅強顏色完全正確"},{"start":14624.141,"end":14629.664,"text":"包含超新城董事長還有我們民進黨不分區立委沈伯陽他顧問還有之前當過我們文化總會秘書長的李厚慶這樣的陣容強大而讓他可以在這麼短的時間這樣子一成立可以打敗其他的公司拿到7000多萬"},{"start":14649.926,"end":14663.136,"text":"部長我想你在這個業界你也都知道拿政府的標案非常不容易啊其實後來也有很多人來跟我反映就是要來去申請這樣的標案東問西問東問西問東審西審東審西審最後拿不到標案"},{"start":14669.981,"end":14684.146,"text":"我們整個黑潮計畫在台劇內容升級計畫是4.8億但是最後補助了超過5億我跟你講文化部常常這樣子啦預算都是假的預算說4.8億然後最後補助超過5億但是我剛才講到的這個臨日戰爭拿了超過7千萬另外有一個台北創造電影公司拿了8千萬"},{"start":14697.33,"end":14709.895,"text":"你叫這兩家公司啊就把這4.8億的三成通通拿走啊你讓其他的台聚的公司台聚的團隊情何以堪啊預算4.8億前兩名獨佔額頭就拿了三成的金額是怎樣其他的很差嗎他們最棒棒嗎"},{"start":14724.662,"end":14733.271,"text":"所以部長我提醒你喔當時超時的時候不管是陳吉仲或者陳俊濟部長都說沒有問題絕對沒有問題現在他們都不敢講話了啦"},{"start":14737.611,"end":14760.28,"text":"所以這個案子你要去了解因為黑潮計畫還在執行也許換了一個部長可能有不同的團隊可以比較能夠得到青睞另外跟部長講的是這個寧日戰爭他不但是我們的黑潮計畫給他了7131萬國發基金他也拿了4100萬"},{"start":14766.963,"end":14781.735,"text":"整個拿到政府的比例之高都將近到50%了所以我要講的政府資源非常有限而且我們還是給文化部編這麼多的錢這麼多的錢去集中到極少數的公司合理嗎台劇只有他這一個嗎那其他人要拍的時候錢到哪裡去了呢"},{"start":14790.734,"end":14809.486,"text":"所以部長請你能夠我是因為說你現在上任的時間並不長啦也半年了好好瞭解一下這個案子等到它被辦的時候啊當然因為這不在你任內啊但是你就不要重蹈覆轍好不好"},{"start":14812.528,"end":14838.523,"text":"剛剛委員講說我辦過電影學校我不但辦過電影學校我還在中央電影公司工作8年拍了100部電影所以對於電影的這個行業我非常懂其實電影跟超市部長針對問題講一家公司再給你20秒通常我們一家公司為什麼要一片公司是找了十幾家投資公司只好成立一家公司大家把資金擺進去等到片子拍完之後賣完了"},{"start":14838.823,"end":14855.457,"text":"好 所以你現在要幫他背書是吧我不是背書我只是解釋說你認為他那個公司的錢很少不是因為他是用很少的錢去騙很多的錢是因為我們的電影產業的殘袋就是這樣子他是為了拍片他的占比有沒有問題4.8億兩家公司拿了三成走"},{"start":14863.303,"end":14887.179,"text":"因為我們目前資助有11家公司剛剛您講那個10後就是潮熱員的公司11家公司拿我們的錢這家公司只不過是11家裡面其中一家一家公司拿那麼多所以今天你講很好你多講一點他就成為記錄有一天他出現問題的時候就像陳吉仲跟陳俊記幫超司背書一樣"},{"start":14889.093,"end":14906.216,"text":"你就幫他背書吧。你們的錢真的太多了。太腐爛了。好,謝謝文宏威委員。部長請回。我們接下來有請翁曉琳委員。翁曉琳委員。翁曉琳委員不在。接下來我們有請陳廷飛委員質詢。謝謝主席。我們請部長。有請李部長。"},{"start":14920.39,"end":14920.611,"text":"陳委員好"},{"start":14921.978,"end":14940.289,"text":"部長我想你剛想講的因為我也是學電影在學校裡面有學過電影所以其實電影產業真的是不同戲劇產業也不同所以我相信這跟超市真的不同剛剛我們的部長應該是要這麼說因為每一個產業它有不同的一個做法那其實為什麼我們要鼓勵這些電影產業的一個這個他們的產製"},{"start":14951.115,"end":14972.01,"text":"就是因為沒有我們加入到這個力量的時候我們沒有辦法去製作出一部好的戲劇電影都是如此所以我相信在整個我們黑潮計畫裡面我們要做的也是能夠把我們好的戲劇好的電影把它發揮出來"},{"start":14973.211,"end":15000.616,"text":"所以我們更需要給他的力量然後力量之後當然有投資者就願意下一步的投資這就扶植那你沒有讓他先看到光跟熱未來哪一家公司願意去投資所以繼續不要因為說有任何的一些質詢壓力然後好像改變了我們對於電影產業文化的支持部長加油那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":15001.994,"end":15026.018,"text":"部長你應該記得我在議會院會的時候已經有跟你質詢過就是我們臺語文化園區應該落腳在哪裡那麼我舉了幾個優勢就是說在我們臺灣歷史博物館他目前他就是我們文化部所屬所以沒有任何問題 對不對我們從過去"},{"start":15032.54,"end":15058.897,"text":"就是一直存在著只有一個在彰化是我們的台語文化園區但是我們找不到第二個甚至我們國家語言法通過之後我們更需要有台語文化園區正是我們政府來協助的所以我們如果要尋尋覓覓的時候我們何不就找我們自己文化部現在既有的園區然後做結合"},{"start":15060.612,"end":15087.609,"text":"如果台語文化園區跟歷史博物館做結合我相信那是最圓滿的然後在這個歷史博物館它的土地範圍總共有20公頃第一期跟第二期它僅開發的面積就是所謂的有建築物也才5.5公頃所以我們是有足夠的場地是可以使用的第三個優勢是"},{"start":15089.249,"end":15109.478,"text":"土地沒問題了然後又是我們文化部自己的那就可以馬上編列預算啦所以我覺得我不知道我們文化部還在猶豫什麼而且部長你不是在上次我諮詢的時候你說你要下去看一看那結果呢"},{"start":15111.516,"end":15138.651,"text":"部長去看過了嗎我一起回答好嗎好其實我最近去了兩個地方一個就是您剛才講臺灣歷史博物館因為他要又有另外一個新建計畫是他想要蓋非常漂亮二期我去看了然後我也特別跑了一趟彰化的那個周金玉跟姚家文前輩他們所辦的那個彰化的在八卦山的那個台語園區對我也去參觀了去了解"},{"start":15140.151,"end":15161.158,"text":"臺語園區能做的那個能量對所以我想我會列入考慮但是因為要成立一個臺語園區他不是那麼馬上一喊就可以我本身涉及到不是只有預算喔他必須還有公共建設計畫等等當然對所以我我都看過了只是我還在看要怎麼往下做"},{"start":15162.406,"end":15189.289,"text":"對部長我們要做後期的規劃一定要啦臺語文化園區不可能說好像我就丟了一個東西在裡面不是我們要給他精神要給他能量是一定的可是我們要先確認土地如果我們先遙遙無期或是漫無目的不知道我文化園區要設在哪裡我們怎麼進行第二階段我們第一階段先要尋找好的地點"},{"start":15190.464,"end":15214.426,"text":"所以好的地點就是要有一個所謂串聯性當我們鼓勵大家來我們的歷史博物館同樣的可以來到台語園區這個叫共榮共存是一個非常好的區塊然後才是我們怎麼賦予台語文化園區一個價值精神跟它的定位"},{"start":15215.546,"end":15234.313,"text":"所以我為什麼會跟部長討論說我們是不是應該先確定他可以在哪裡有地點才有後續的規劃才有所謂的價值跟定位所以部長你會不會覺得台語文化園區其實在台灣歷史博物館是一個不錯的地方"},{"start":15235.202,"end":15235.362,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15256.616,"end":15257.056,"text":"謝謝陳委員時間差不多了"},{"start":15277.182,"end":15277.442,"text":"謝謝陳庭菲委員 謝謝時間到了"},{"start":15304.964,"end":15308.466,"text":"謝謝部長請回座接下來我們有請林楚英委員質詢謝謝美麗的主席辛苦了這個到了中午有請我們文化部李部長好有請李部長"},{"start":15326.049,"end":15352.208,"text":"好部長這個我想有關於售票的部分實名制喔欸VT第一張我想很多委員都問了我節省時間喔我就只問就是現在實名制當然造成了許多的亂象那麼身為主管機關當然輔導是非常重要的不只是輔導業者啦民眾可能也要被教育但是今天早上喔因為大家都在問周杰倫的這個部分喔您說您非常討厭周杰倫是嗎"},{"start":15353.829,"end":15356.013,"text":"要不要再做一點解釋啊這真的跟周杰倫有關嗎"},{"start":15357.611,"end":15387.251,"text":"就從剛剛講到吳宗憲也好周杰倫也好其實我都認識我的語言是開玩笑的就像吳宗憲他是一個綜藝大咖我們都很熟周杰倫我也訪問過他我剛剛講的恨是因為他造成我今天從頭到尾被一直問同一個題目所以今天變成是我們教育文化委員會的關鍵字剩下周杰倫三個字因為我覺得我可以回答的問題很多我也準備了很多答案結果一直在被問周杰倫所以我說我恨他是開玩笑的"},{"start":15387.611,"end":15417.431,"text":"好所以這個只是一個玩笑話但最重要的還是怎麼樣把演唱會的實名制推下去而不是上有政策下有對策我覺得這蠻重要前面很多委員都問了那我就來問一個我自己長期一直非常關注的就是有關於到底我們現在能不能有一個所謂的建架平台這個平台是剛剛有委員吹熏到就是有關於這個到底怎麼樣來推動我們的文創您在報告上面特別寫到了這個黑潮黑潮現在被在野黨的委員抓著打"},{"start":15417.891,"end":15432.186,"text":"原因就是因為政府部門包括文化部包括其他的這個我們的中華電信等等這種所謂國營企業加入但是我們都知道最近最熟的一首歌叫做apt"},{"start":15433.752,"end":15457.803,"text":"我不知道部長知不知道APART他其實是一個BLACKPINK裡面的一個團員叫ROSE他最近跟BLOOMUS出了這一首歌馬上洗腦然後變成是透過這個大型的哥倫比亞公司跟這個ROSE再加BLOOMUS他們出了這一首APARTAPART其實根本就是一個韓國的酒桌遊戲現在大家都知道了"},{"start":15458.283,"end":15477.049,"text":"所以我們就知道流行音樂他需要的是帶入本土然後需要的背後是資金我長期在關注就是說我們這些文創到底資金從哪裡來如果業界有資金哪裡需要文化部哪裡需要國營企業一起加入但是最怕的是什麼"},{"start":15477.509,"end":15499.926,"text":"就是這些要推動文創的時候這些資產的建架平台無法去真的對於這些無形的未來充滿潛力的資產來做評估本席過去一直在財政委員會我們來看到這個台灣金服裡面有一個無形資產的建架平台但是在2017年他就死掉了再來就沒有任何原因是因為什麼"},{"start":15500.586,"end":15523.295,"text":"因為銀行不敢去估價或者是銀行認為我沒有估價能力我如果估錯價我要賠錢的那麼文策院或者是文化部基本上我們現在都知道文化部有個文策院文策院在做很多文創產業的評估對不對他一定有一套建價的過程所以本席要問的很簡單就是部長以你過去在產業界面臨過這麼多"},{"start":15526.216,"end":15538.986,"text":"資金短缺的時候文化部有沒有可能結合金管會跟臺灣金服我們找出能夠做欠價的人才來協助銀行願意貸款給這些充滿潛力潛能的文創產業但是重點就來了部長這裡如果金管會願意做"},{"start":15547.192,"end":15561.2,"text":"經管會彭金龍主委也告訴我他要做那文化部能不能提供軟性的資源就像是我們經濟部過去要發展工業可以有工業局一樣我們文化部能不能有人才來協助內容建架部長"},{"start":15562.093,"end":15588.017,"text":"目前逐漸我拿拍電影來講已經從導演製片製片製片就是在控制預算跟收入所以如果金管會願意做這件事的話我當然很願意幫忙業者不然他們在銀行借不到錢要抵押房子然後沒辦法告訴別人說我可以賺多少錢所以我們如果能夠幫助到這一點可以有助於他從民間找到資金到銀行借錢這點我是很願意的"},{"start":15588.257,"end":15614.757,"text":"好 所以部長因為時間有限我只剛剛聽到你的承諾說只要金管會要做文化部可以出人所以我要求一個金管會加文化部再加台灣金服的一個所謂跨部會的會議好不好然後我們一起來協助這些需要資金的文創業者能夠在銀行借得到錢那這個平台死掉沒關係但是我們後續來做因為後面我看到蔡董事長在後頭"},{"start":15615.558,"end":15628.526,"text":"文策院對於評估能不能投資一定有一套方法一定有人才我們也希望文策院一起加進來不要什麼都是政府出資不要到時候又被大家講說為什麼政府獨厚我們就讓專業的一起來然後讓民間的資金可以導入讓銀行也願意背書這樣好嗎"},{"start":15636.011,"end":15661.785,"text":"這部分文策院經過了五年之後我相信他有請部長用書面回答好了好不好好部長我希望能夠真的有進度好不好好謝謝林楚英委員接下來我們請鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員不在廖偉強委員廖偉強委員廖偉強委員不在張嘉峻委員張嘉峻委員張嘉峻委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來我們有請何新淳委員質詢"},{"start":15667.605,"end":15667.966,"text":"好謝謝張偉我們請部長好我們有請李部長"},{"start":15676.172,"end":15702.158,"text":"部長好上次有一次機會跟你一起用餐那期間當然沒有時間討論所以今天特地過來要跟你討論一件事情部長我過去在教育文化委員會大概六七個年頭有十幾個會期那其中我推動了一個重點是有關於台中的文創那文創園區大家跟我說很多很多那我們需要再找新的模式新的定位"},{"start":15703.658,"end":15724.67,"text":"我在2022年當時李永德部長曾經到了我的大理菸業廠我的選區有一個菸業廠它是國有土地那現在呢我們為了這裡面有五六座的日治時代留下來的歷史建築那還有包含了百年之前的菸業的相關的機器設備"},{"start":15727.312,"end":15745.111,"text":"﹖"},{"start":15745.111,"end":15766.084,"text":"﹚"},{"start":15766.564,"end":15790.679,"text":"規劃案的結論又是如何然後文化部到底不願意來支持那現況我跟部長講幾個detail現況台中市政府已經透過都市計畫的方式把所有原來是工業用地的這個菸業場的用地已經變更為文化觀光修器的其他用途的用地都市計畫已經通過了"},{"start":15794.041,"end":15817.535,"text":"國有財產署也告訴我們說只要呢中央文化部跟地方文化局有意願的話我國產署隨時都願意把這個博用給予真正符合他園區內我們在倡議的文化園區也好文資園區也好文創園區也好就是要活活在利用"},{"start":15818.395,"end":15837.042,"text":"各個單位都準備好了也希望能夠跟中央一起合作我們文化部現在到底研究規劃到哪裡部長我請次長回答一下因為這個地方我沒有去看過你過去沒有參與現在就是要告訴你希望未來有你的參與我覺得像台灣最大特色就是這些菸廠酒廠我自己也參與很多但是對於這個大理菸廠我真的比較不熟我請次長跟你報告好嗎"},{"start":15849.16,"end":15863.19,"text":"謝謝委員的吹詢因為這個案子當初經過委員的建議然後我們也有進場評估那當時的國表役就是我們台中歌劇院曾經有一度想要用大理菸業場的部分空間作為他們的"},{"start":15865.671,"end":15865.691,"text":"：部長："},{"start":15893.621,"end":15919.066,"text":"我要讓部長知道當時的李永的部長親自到現場去看他就是在希望能夠呢由文化部來找尋一個模式而這個模式是可行推動可以跟地方合作的那可惜可惜啦齁我們部長沒有續任啦那我們新任的部長上來連這件事情第一個你們沒有跟部長報告第二件事情我們文化部對這個"},{"start":15921.367,"end":15943.306,"text":"這個研究規劃到底未來要如何做也沒有一個明確的答案這也就是為什麼今天要特別來跟我們李部長講找一個機會找一個時間我請你我們到現場走一趟讓你知道他的文化資產的價值非常豐沛他是值得跟地方政府一起合作發展的一個文創園區文化園區"},{"start":15945.808,"end":15945.988,"text":"可以嗎部長"},{"start":15961.138,"end":15969.563,"text":"好其實我對這種文化運氣很有興趣但是我必須現場看完之後看有沒有什麼想法好我跟你約時間好沒問題第二個剩下30秒我們再請部長一件事剛剛有其他委員問到國慢館以國慢館在台中我希望文化部能大力的支持國慢館不是只有它的硬體建設"},{"start":15982.31,"end":15998.724,"text":"而是他的行銷推展我希望能夠跟地方結合你看到這張圖交通部台中火車站有一個大車站計劃也有個一道文化園區我們希望透過文化部跟交通部兩個中央部會所俠管的國慢管跟"},{"start":15999.525,"end":16017.214,"text":"火車站的驛站文化園區兩個部會一起帶動地方你看我們有臺中周聽我們有文學館我們有文資園區我們有綠空廊道這些是可以串聯結合起來變成是我們復興城區異文之旅跟行銷臺中之美帶動發展部長有空如果你"},{"start":16021.016,"end":16021.136,"text":"蔡奕宇委員質詢"},{"start":16057.063,"end":16061.351,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請文化部部長好有請李部長"},{"start":16066.93,"end":16089.118,"text":"蔡委員好部長好部長我想跟你聊雖然是比較大的東西因為我覺得台灣我們對於所謂IP實際上IP的定義很廣大家在講如果在文化界不管是文學創作不管是動漫"},{"start":16090.049,"end":16115.651,"text":"或者是其他的遊戲總是都會有一些知名IP會跑出來那我們看到其他國家對於他們國家知名IP的保護非常的用心我舉的日本大概日本對於他們的動漫可以算是他們日本的一個國粹你看到日本他們就會在一些地點像他們在九州大分的這個水壩"},{"start":16117.312,"end":16129.461,"text":"這個水壩的牆他就用了三個人的雕像這三個人的雕像就是晉級的巨人的三個主角然後這三個人看著這個水壩的這個牆"},{"start":16131.038,"end":16160.142,"text":"那這個場景就是這一部這個漫畫裡面最重要的一個場景結果他就把它還原出來了那甚至在於日本的一些場景還有說這個晉級巨人的兵長他也把它做一個雕像的一個還原那日本還有一個兵庫的淡路島他是叫做二次元之森那甚至他把他們前面這家庫斯拉就把它當作他的入口的一個意象"},{"start":16161.583,"end":16185.339,"text":"那再下來趕快二次元之聲他又還原了鬼滅之刃他裡面一個很重要在打那個蜘蛛的那個什麼他們一個角色的時候他們這個森林又還原了那些場景所以這個場景有一些是漫畫家在取材的時候他去找了現實有的場景"},{"start":16186.667,"end":16213.746,"text":"但是現實在做一些地方工程或是建設的時候他也會反而再去取材於漫畫裡面的場景又把它復刻到了真實的世界就這樣交錯的運用讓整個動漫產業在日本這個不管是漫畫是遊戲產業 哇 蓬勃發展那這個看起來台灣相對就好弱"},{"start":16215.226,"end":16228.271,"text":"事實上我助理還有幫我準備你看像日本九州他就把這個航海王這個航海王這一部漫畫九個角色做成同項放在九州的九個四裡面"},{"start":16233.12,"end":16247.867,"text":"所以就有一堆這一些人想去收集說我想要跟韓海文這9個重要角色9個主角我想要跟他們合影然後上到我的臉書上所以我就要跑這9個地方"},{"start":16249.983,"end":16275.893,"text":"那從這裡就可以看出說這種IP跟真實世界交錯運用然後把整個資源把它炒作到最大有一些資源來自民間但是政府也是很有用心去看到民間的這些東西所以我們當比較重點就要來了所以說全球知名的這個角色的授權金我們可以看出說從寶可夢、Hello Kitty"},{"start":16277.894,"end":16297.04,"text":"阿到剛剛講了很多的動漫阿七龍珠阿怎樣那可以看到全世界齁類似這樣的一個日本阿日本齁單就日本齁就這樣文化的這個產品權齁他們事實上政府就投資了5700億的台幣那相較於我們台灣齁用在這個原創圖像開發"},{"start":16301.421,"end":16320.04,"text":"或者是去買這個授權金的就只用差不多6.1台幣有相差很多我想要請教部長就是說我們有沒有可能著重於台灣這個產業的這樣的一些IP然後我們可以把它用在我們所有的公部門的建築還是怎樣不好意思我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都我都"},{"start":16320.731,"end":16341.544,"text":"我其實委員想講的是我最想做的這是我們在台南文博會集滿的人進不去就是因為我們裡面有IP很有名的IP還有我們時裝周也跟全世界不一樣是找6個IP的作品找6個設計師那未來我們透過繪本漫畫"},{"start":16342.813,"end":16342.833,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":16359.477,"end":16387.53,"text":"第二個集米第三個集米所以我推的就是IP能夠在臺灣互相跨域的合作然後成為一個公共藝術部長知名的IP我們再想辦法再給他多一點力量讓他二創讓他三創這個IP就會又火起來阿你說像我剛舉的齁像七龍珠七龍珠有三名先生死掉了但是你知道嗎他的續集現在正在上映餒現在在Netflix正在演七龍珠的續集餒"},{"start":16389.011,"end":16403.895,"text":"你知道嗎?叫做大磨什麼大磨鏡喔?那個是鳥山明先生在世的時候他的一個發想可是他人死掉了後面的人繼續幫他完成他之後的創作所以我覺得IP不能讓他死掉我們台灣你看我們連霹靂布袋戲過去輸了我們謝謝蔡議員委員好嗎?是不是會後可以再跟文化部好不好?我會努力"},{"start":16424.184,"end":16437.357,"text":"接下來我們有請蘇信泉委員蘇信泉委員蘇信泉委員不在那紅國昌委員紅國昌委員紅國昌委員不在賴世保委員賴世保委員賴世保委員不在接下來我們有請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":16448.309,"end":16451.452,"text":"謝謝主席 有請李部長好 我們有請李部長邱委員你好部長 我只有240秒齁 這個"},{"start":16461.24,"end":16482.622,"text":"我們文化部在歐洲的駐外館處有派駐文化部的人員有幾個處有17個地方17個處都有文化部派駐人員有多有少一共17個點這個我為什麼講這個呢因為這個我們跟職業棒球在美國很多的職棒球隊我們都有台灣日"},{"start":16484.008,"end":16513.026,"text":"台灣日當然以台灣日為主題去宣傳台灣的文化也好我看到很多原住民的舞蹈客家的這些文化都透過台灣日那天那個一場大概有四五萬人啦效果非常好啊那歐洲沒有打棒球歐洲是怎麼樣?歐洲是踢足球啦那你如果你要進入英超或者西甲那個恐怕有點困難或者德甲有困難可以從比較中小型的國家跟我們比較友好捷克捷克足球有點強啊"},{"start":16514.952,"end":16536.358,"text":"或者是中國這些國家跟我們長期也比較友好我們可以透過跟他們這個職業聯盟的合作不用說他們一場足球比賽他們也有職業足球去推動一個台灣日然後在歐洲的足球場讓台灣文化讓更多的歐洲的球迷知道這部分能不能列為一個計畫來執行"},{"start":16539.69,"end":16541.091,"text":"職業球賽的一個場所"},{"start":16563.65,"end":16563.77,"text":"與母球隊談合作﹚"},{"start":16579.168,"end":16582.549,"text":"文化幣投入出版業只有40%﹖我一直強調是不是有購書券﹖對於中小學或高中同學有全面普發的圖書券﹖你一個月花多少錢去買書﹖"},{"start":16601.337,"end":16612.918,"text":"我不用花錢,家裡會有很多人一直寄給我那很好,那我都要花錢我花錢是這樣,花錢是一種投資花錢買出我一個月花一萬到一萬五"},{"start":16615.535,"end":16636.892,"text":"這個買書我每個月都要詳細的去研究很多媒體的這些副刊所做的這些書評介紹然後再決定我買書的書單大概一萬到一萬五這個對知識的投資我們現在每天都看書都看臉書臉書它不是一個知識的彙整它也不是一個也許不是資訊提供它是一個雜訊的轟炸"},{"start":16639.392,"end":16655.005,"text":"所以我們所有不管是各個世代都是面臨到這個所謂這些平台這些手機這個疲勞是長期式的這個雜訊的轟炸我們要有自覺要自知"},{"start":16656.336,"end":16680.713,"text":"政策上也要去引導怎麼樣去導入一個正常的知識的吸收管道當然學校教育也是培養閱讀的能力跟興趣也是很重要所以你如果都不看書都只看臉書但你的知識累積是很零碎的很破綻的很淺層的你吸收到的知識是非常非常有限的連資訊都導不上"},{"start":16682.774,"end":16689.786,"text":"所以我覺得你應該要提振出版業對如何振興出版業你要有一套方案"},{"start":16691.379,"end":16716.551,"text":"從財政面從政策面怎麼去鼓勵從需求面從供給面供給面當然就是降低這個出版業的這個相關成本那個我時間到了我以後再有時間再跟部長來討論所以要有這個宏觀的知識的培養是藉由藉由這個有效率的閱讀要閱讀要有提振先提振出版事業"},{"start":16717.299,"end":16734.929,"text":"其實委員講的都是我最關心的事情我會努力做好謝謝好謝謝邱志偉委員這麼準時感謝你好那接下來我們有請廖先祥委員廖先祥委員廖先祥委員不在那我們有請賴慧媛委員質詢"},{"start":16741.619,"end":16751.015,"text":"謝謝主席那有請我們文化部部長我們的影視局王局長影視司吳司長好我們有請李部長以及以上兩位"},{"start":16757.132,"end":16775.277,"text":"部長午安部長午安部長我想就是說針對的就是岸內隱私基地在我們臺南的沿水的岸內隱私基地那這個在南臺灣能夠代表臺灣非常有特色的一個隱私基地今天針對的這個議題來跟部長做探討"},{"start":16778.738,"end":16799.081,"text":"其實這個案內影視基地的一個催生是在本席當議員的時候其實一步一腳印就是這樣子慢慢的一個努力當然很多人得到很多人的一個支持那在今年的8月就是我們的行政院副院長那個副院長也到了就是案內影視基地"},{"start":16800.102,"end":16821.28,"text":"這個我要非常謝謝就是副院長因為他在當文化部長的時候他充分他充分的就是支持那請教部長是不是一樣就是說安內隱私基地的經費的編列是2.2億即將就是已經是不是核准了我要知道這個預算的一個進度"},{"start":16823.34,"end":16846.176,"text":"這個部分在行政院已經完全通過而且我們是在一個大的一個公建計畫裡面的其中的一年所以這個2.21沒有問題是在我們的公建計畫裡頭部長那接著跟你探討就是說針對的案內隱私基地的一個規劃那當然就是說這個案內隱私基地是不是會開放光光呢"},{"start":16847.253,"end":16874.722,"text":"有沒有什麼初步的規劃到目前初步規劃其實我們目前想的都是逐漸增加它可以拍戲的部分目前我所了解是留有一些空地可能未來是一些可以開咖啡店等等但是我目前還沒規劃到這一步那這個咖啡店還有其他的這一些就是商店它會不會對外開放還是就是給我們的影視就是這一些劇組的人來利用呢"},{"start":16876.789,"end":16892.891,"text":"目前是我們是兩件事情同時想一邊在蓋一邊就想誰來經營因為我不太能夠靠那個文化局來經營他所以一邊開發一邊想到底我們將來要怎麼樣出去由別人來經營但是他絕對是未來"},{"start":16893.712,"end":16909.157,"text":"台灣一個非常有潛力的觀光點我再請教你就是說一個非常有潛力的觀光點那我知道王史詩那個次長當初他也在我們台南市政府裡頭扮演一個非常重要推動的一個角色"},{"start":16909.857,"end":16924.526,"text":"那事實上就是說你們在未來的一個經營者那是用什麼樣的一個方式那有沒有一個比較可以具體的跟本席做一個報告我在這裡特別跟就是部長做一個"},{"start":16925.106,"end":16947.881,"text":"建議,因為我們參考就是華辣兄弟工作室,就是用美國的工作,華辣兄弟的工作室跟各國的影視基地裡頭的參還,它事實上都是讓民眾親身經歷建構台灣這個文化的一個歷史,譬如說他這個拍片的過程裡頭,他有骨枪,他這個骨枪他就沒有刷照,然後就讓真正的就是說"},{"start":16948.942,"end":16950.964,"text":"目前規劃就是在不同的台灣的不同時期現在整個規劃就是這樣子"},{"start":16973.865,"end":16990.64,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":16990.84,"end":17016.242,"text":"你非常感動你看到案內影視基地其實我每一次去每一次真的都非常的感動所以我就覺得說已經花了國家這麼大的一個這麼多的一個經費況且擺在這個地方它真的是足以當我們南台灣的影視基地的一個表率那部長你有沒有印象在這個基地裡頭目前產出的作品你叫得出來的除了斯卡羅你還叫得出什麼名稱"},{"start":17019.432,"end":17019.932,"text":"是,拍完了"},{"start":17031.481,"end":17052.877,"text":"對拍完了其實最早是斯卡羅啦我跟你講齁最早就是斯卡羅目前有23部的片子齁其實是在這裡拍攝的那我們是希望有更多的一個片子利用這個那個影視基地齁來那個就是投入就是他的一個真正的一個產能那最重要的是要再建議學生的進駐的拍攝"},{"start":17054.318,"end":17068.928,"text":"然後藉由這個拍攝的作品我們去參與這樣的比賽那我們真正的就是說讓這一個案內影視基地它不只只有觀光它其實還有教學的一個功能那你認為你認為這可不可行呢"},{"start":17069.557,"end":17085.419,"text":"目前就已經開始有一些附近的學校就開始收他接受一些影視的學生去裡面開始做實習我要跟委員報告就是他只是實習喔所以部長我們希望可以再深入深入這邊工作"},{"start":17086.279,"end":17101.772,"text":"對那我想說就是你可以提供一個比較完整的報告在一個院內給本席那我們希望就是說暗內隱私基地不只是台灣人的一個歷史文化的一個基地他更是眾多學生隱私隱私人的一個造夢的地方謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":17108.43,"end":17124.254,"text":"接下來我想有請高金素美委員,高金素美委員,高金素美委員不在鄭天才委員,鄭天才委員,鄭天才委員不在現場因為我們還有圖權局委員在現場那我們要給圖權局委員4分鐘好,謝謝主席請我們部長好,有請李部長"},{"start":17140.424,"end":17158.192,"text":"主委委員你好部長你好本席在10月9號的時候那時候在內政委員會針對文化部對於國家語言的書面建議用語的定名那時候有請教了我們的理事長那時候因為時間不夠今天再請教一下部長"},{"start":17159.933,"end":17178.73,"text":"上次我們針對文化部書面建議用語的定名原則其中一項是名從主人也就是說講這個話自稱是什麼話我們就用這個來命名另外一個原則就是限縮不合宜或者不符合族群的期待者名稱是這樣子來命名是不是"},{"start":17179.611,"end":17206.706,"text":"是啊對那時候我們也有質疑就是本系列質疑說那時候在電話調查中我們稱我們現在自己講的是國語的人多於華語可是為什麼文化部以至於還有我們民進黨執政向下的各部會現在的文書中都把它稱為華語而不是稱國語那日本人統治台灣的時候日本人用的國語就是日文"},{"start":17209.141,"end":17224.931,"text":"國語是用日文講所以國民政府來台灣之後他把華語變成國語那這是習慣語但是到現在為止有一天我看到日本出了一本書叫做台灣華語換句話說"},{"start":17227.733,"end":17251.843,"text":"華語在台灣的發展已經跟原來我們想像中的北京語有很大的變化我覺得語言是一個流動的就是經過一段時間的隔閡以後這個語言會慢慢的受到當地其他不同的族群的改變所以台灣的華語以及不同於中國的北京語是因為它受到長期以來受到我們這邊其他族群的影響"},{"start":17252.543,"end":17271.194,"text":"我想是這樣解釋因為我們針對我們有一個民從主人也就是說講這個話的人自稱是什麼話所以那時候你們有說我們的台灣閩南語因為大家都說希望說是台灣台語所以用這個民從主人所以我們才說那用民從主人的說法來講"},{"start":17272.715,"end":17278.579,"text":"大家都說國語然後你們又堅持要用華語我們只是覺得好像是一個兩套標準那沒關係還有針對我們選擇用語的時候我們除了考慮講的人的想法我覺得我們應該也要在乎我們台灣這片土地聽的感受也必須要兼顧像這河洛語官方建議台灣台語那現在也很多客家跟原住民的族群"},{"start":17301.235,"end":17314.204,"text":"他們擔心以後我們的下一代一兩代以後會認為台澎金馬講的就是河洛語會會遏制扼殺了我們這個客家語跟原住民發展的空間"},{"start":17315.649,"end":17330.712,"text":"那不知道部長有沒有什麼想法就是我剛剛有特別強調語言是一種非常自然的發展比如說如果你住在一個沒有客家人的一個地方住了50年以後遇到客家人他告訴你說你是荷洛人"},{"start":17331.092,"end":17356.804,"text":"他會聽不太懂這點我希望我們不要因為語言造成大家互相的好像怕說變成一個霸權我希望大家互相欣賞別人的語言因為每一種語言都有它的美麗就像我對客家語我不太會講可是我幫助客委會做過很多客家音樂劇我完全不會否定就是我們去欣賞不同語言我們也是希望多元族群大家平等平權語言也是一樣那部長廟下也是客家人對不對"},{"start":17360.066,"end":17375.382,"text":"但我是不太會講客家話的那我們希望我們十幾年來推動的客語保留跟復興那像我們現任的客委會主委其實他也很客氣他說要尊重文化部其實客委會在110年的就有"},{"start":17376.002,"end":17389.129,"text":"發表他們的意見建議稱為臺灣閩南語那現在也很多的客家大佬跟原住民族群都不希望臺語這個詞彙變成一個族群所獨占代表說臺語變成臺灣的代表"},{"start":17393.972,"end":17417.769,"text":"所以我們希望文化部不要只以從主人原則當唯一的考量那像我們官方頒訂的書面建議用語我們希望能夠取捨可能造成長遠的影響不要成為幾代之後扼殺台灣族群多元語言還有多元文化的罪人希望這一部分部長能夠來給我們協助好不好"},{"start":17419.93,"end":17441.502,"text":"我希望每種語言都被尊重然後不要像過去那樣子只獨尊華語然後壓抑所有的語言所以那個語言法的出來就是國家語言尊重每一種在台灣大家使用的語言我覺得大家都把它討論到是語言的稱呼我覺得是有點好像原來不是這個意思原來是我們不能夠獨尊華語"},{"start":17443.363,"end":17470.303,"text":"這樣子一個政策我們是說以目前來講其實並沒有什麼紛爭並沒有必要刻意去推動這台灣台語造成族群之間彼此和諧的問題所以我們一直認為說多元族群尊重他的歷史文化多元語言多元文化我們平等平權我覺得這是最重要的好不好真的文化不立場我會盡量推動對所有語言的非常公平對待好謝謝部長"},{"start":17471.667,"end":17474.398,"text":"好謝謝突經居委員部長請回座"},{"start":17476.67,"end":17504.899,"text":"好我們今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有高金素美委員楊瓊怡委員提出書面質詢那關於今天會議我們作成如下的決定報告及訊號完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並列刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關競訴以書面答覆那也跟這個委員會報告今天因為有跟"},{"start":17505.499,"end":17507.101,"text":"報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":17520.589,"end":17520.989,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17545.196,"end":17545.636,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16195","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db910ea1e62573b11e9b5fa2f296a935346059d4d42a7fce21c518105b5c8e3a7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估，及政府協助企業因應之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長就「我國碳邊境調整機制（CBAM）推動規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-23T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-23T11:51:00+08:00","duration":12061,"影片長度":"03:21:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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檻2.5萬噸"},{"start":2405.154,"end":2407.315,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":2425.558,"end":2444.225,"text":"那因為他有提出自主減量計畫．所以他可以使用優惠費率．那會看他的指定目標是比較困難．是比較嚴格的副表一．他的費率是50．那如果是副表B的技術標杆．他的費率是100．那如果不是屬於高碳洩漏風險的事業．"},{"start":2445.646,"end":2461.162,"text":"那它的這個碳費就是排放量扣掉起徵門檻之後一樣稱優惠費率那我們以這個副表一跟副表二我們透過副表二的這個方式來算如果所有的收費對象都可以達到副表二的"},{"start":2462.023,"end":2466.687,"text":"這個自主減量目標．我們請看PPT的第5頁這個收費對象在能夠滿足這個負表1跟負表2的情形之下他會有不同的優惠費率那假設所有的收費對象這500場都可以提出自主減量計畫我們預計2030年的減碳可以到37個百萬噸相較於2005年"},{"start":2485.365,"end":2489.169,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及"},{"start":2507.929,"end":2524.942,"text":"通常也就是我們所謂的高碳洩漏風險的事業如果他們在沒有我們的配套措施的狀況之下呢這個碳費佔行業平均毛利率的比例會比較高那但是如果這一些收費對象可以提出自主減量計劃也可以乘以排放量調整係數0.2的話那他佔的毛利率的這個影響會下降到這個1.14%到2.95%不等"},{"start":2535.014,"end":2557.136,"text":"那第八頁給委員們參考是我們的這個費率相較於亞洲其他鄰近國家因為這個碳成本並不是只有向我們收碳稅或是實施總量管制跟交易其實也會有一些化石燃料的稅費所以以化石燃料的稅費我們依照這個OECD的記錄來看這個日本他平均承擔的這個碳成本"},{"start":2557.915,"end":2560.976,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":2586.524,"end":2590.949,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助．及政府協助．及政府協助．及政府協助．及政府協助"},{"start":2598.596,"end":2602.06,"text":"以減碳跟調適還有公正轉型為主這個在第10頁有比較詳細的說明那進到我們有關於邊境調整機制的報告那我們請委員們參考第12頁其實剛剛這個經濟部連次有提到現在國際上確實已經要做邊境調整機制的"},{"start":2619.138,"end":2619.478,"text":"因應經濟部首長、環境部首長．"},{"start":2635.976,"end":2643.504,"text":"那這個以我國來說我們請委員們看第13頁我們在6月的時候其實已經有召開部會去討論第一個是因應歐盟的CBAM第二個就是開始去啟動我國如果要實施台版的CBAM有哪一些事項需要去注意所以在6月份開會過其實各部會也有提到說有一些應該要分工"},{"start":2660.04,"end":2678.872,"text":"要怎麼去做進一步的分析這個我們有在演繹當中那14頁是結語最主要是希望我們碳費能夠作為減量的工具那這個邊境調整措施我們會去參考國際的經驗特別是歐盟實施的經驗還有自己國內的這個進出口產品的狀況來儘早規劃最起碼從產品的碳申報開始以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2688.525,"end":2704.74,"text":"謝謝財政部．謝謝環境部施文貞次長的報告那關於財政部的報告請委員自行參議院並刊登公報我們先處理醫次錄請問這兩位委員對上市醫次錄是否有無錯誤還沒有錯誤我們就確定醫次錄"},{"start":2709.555,"end":2733.876,"text":"報告事項兩岸我們進行合併詢答委員質詢前原例作以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員六分鐘必要時間上兩分鐘非本會委員四分鐘我們上午十點三十分即時發言登記為了會議的進行順利並兼顧每位委員發言時間的公平性也避免影響下一位委員質詢"},{"start":2735.889,"end":2748.278,"text":"請質詢委員於質詢時間結束之後,請停止發言。若繼續發言,主席會立即致辭。還請各位委員能夠盡量配合。好,第二委員,請林丹樺委員質詢。左卿,有請次長。請林院次長。"},{"start":2764.67,"end":2785.949,"text":"市長本席針對離岸風電國產化的政策政府是缺乏積極的作為那本席也針對這個現存的問題也跟您做一個爬梳離岸風電政策是缺乏整體配套跟統籌各部會各行席次到目前為止都是如此所以也導致我們現在離岸風電國產化"},{"start":2787.751,"end":2793.777,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":2811.375,"end":2837.567,"text":"國家離岸風電電力人員穩定工業及效益的問題這是經濟部環境永續發展及數據監控這是環境部那這個有效的沒有這個缺乏有效的統合、個性歧視我就以高雄為例我們每一個擴建產業轉型要來做這個離岸風電的每一個都是巨額的投資每一家都是數十億以上好"},{"start":2839.048,"end":2863.512,"text":"我們面臨的什麼問題?第一個港灣條件不足我們的這個航道深度、船舶迴轉的空間乃至土地承載力都不足以支撐水下鋼結構的所需第二個作業船舶數量跟人力規劃不足也就是建設跟維運量是嚴重不足第三個南北金屬扣建產業的配套失衡最離譜的是什麼?我高雄生產組裝之後我運到彰化的成本"},{"start":2866.633,"end":2877.341,"text":"竟然比韓國到台北港組裝再到彰化還貴不管南運到中或者是韓國運到北再到彰化我都已經加計了剛才的成本我們還貴好所以這也目前這個我們國產化離岸風電國產化尤其我南部的業者遇到的"},{"start":2887.128,"end":2910.269,"text":"大到發電廠業變小到機艙灶跟複合材料都需要仰賴國外技術及製程趁勢還要去面對紅色供應鏈的稀產地深入我離岸風電國產化的供應鏈好、困境二、政策雷聲大雨點小我們高雄金屬加工及擴建業者信賴中央的產業發展政策投入巨額,剛才我講了每一家都數十億一個天車就要兩三億"},{"start":2914.252,"end":2918.674,"text":"那至今這顆粒未收遭到各種理由這個開發商就有很多理由了來說你是無產制用什麼理由用不適用的規範他用他本身歐洲那種大機組的來說我們國內要跟他一樣我們國內不需要這麼大的一個設備啊"},{"start":2930.24,"end":2935.401,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長"},{"start":2948.965,"end":2965.041,"text":"的這個基座只有22座是我國內的這個高雄生產國產化整體的目標是要60%欸我就算用假平等對半30%北部30%我南部30%這是假平等我現在的高雄也僅不過占12.8%"},{"start":2967.403,"end":2973.406,"text":"這國產化哪有弱勢每一家都是數十億以上欸台灣的離岸風電依本席啦我認為台灣的離岸風電是拯救了韓國業的鋼鐵業者然後呢為什麼他能夠這個韓國鋼鐵業能夠跟我們競爭國家全力支持啊港灣提供、設備提供這個包括這個土地提供"},{"start":2992.185,"end":3015.39,"text":"我們國內通通沒有就業者你自己處理然後據聞現在這次進行是部分的業者也不到韓國了他就到越南採購中國鋼鐵進來國內組裝所以當初經濟部說要組成離岸風電國家對進去東南亞入境高雄的業者我說與其說高雄不如說我中南部的業者哀鴻遍野政策殺人莫勝於此"},{"start":3016.803,"end":3028.354,"text":"好,我們的維運量人,現在已經進入到維運,已經有將近7年了。我們相關的作業量人都還是聚焦風場的開發跟建置。請問次長,我們的維運規劃在哪裡?目前的283座的風電機組,國內有沒有專業維運的團隊?好,你有沒有維運的規劃?有沒有維運的團隊?人才培訓又在哪裡呢?"},{"start":3040.816,"end":3044.841,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":3056.997,"end":3058.118,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長"},{"start":3087.237,"end":3089.298,"text":"第二、我們封廠旁邊是臺灣海峽國際航線每日將近300艘的商貨輪的往返。我們又面臨傳統漁場的作業區域,封機如果發生事故,葉片斷裂,倒塌,人員救援,相關單元是如何因應?"},{"start":3113.687,"end":3123.412,"text":"第三個最離譜的,業者目前的緊急組織方案是什麼?他就靠我們空勤總隊。好,我就以這個臺中港的這個事件,你說我們的維運。去年在臺中港離岸的第一起,風電的機座平台發現一具男屍。"},{"start":3133.991,"end":3141.317,"text":"我們沒有定期的固定巡邏,人員也沒有規劃,也沒有人力也沒有整體的規劃。所以我這邊具體要求也請次長來回應。第一個,請經濟部務必認清歐盟向WTO提出國產化的限制意義,這個是自由貿易商業競爭的手段。"},{"start":3157.111,"end":3162.896,"text":"要認清楚啊這是我們有心的業者要打擊國內的國產會去大WTO去告狀啊說這個自由貿易這是自由貿易商業手段好沒關係既然國系規則這樣講你自己本國對於國產化當中你就要知道要怎麼因應喔你不能屈服這種有心人的這個打擊本國的這個國產化"},{"start":3180.791,"end":3185.714,"text":"好,然後所以你們說呢這個離岸風電3-3級要鬆綁所以請你們務必考慮國內產業鏈尚在建設當中需要政府的協助我具體建議請經濟部研議後續的輔導措施如統合我前期其經的中小型造船業者他們有技術水下結構的業者這個本身業者也有提供碼頭跟重型設備維運需求者"},{"start":3207.968,"end":3213.331,"text":"來共同解決離岸風電的違運量能短缺。這個是點出來是我們現在都沒有規劃的違運量能。第二個,考量國內產業發展跟國防工業的自主安全。有關離岸風電的複合材料基於排除紅色供應鏈,請經濟部產發署務必將機艙罩與鼻椎罩列入MWO,禁止大陸進口。這是國內有產啊,你去問問這個國內的這個複合商業同業公會。"},{"start":3237.586,"end":3242.555,"text":"第三、經濟部就應該就合約的內容．要求離岸風電開發商提出具體維運．這是平時．緊急的處置是什麼．解決方案．來這三個次長具體回答"},{"start":3250.51,"end":3272.259,"text":"這個第一題我們一定會來研議尤其是要統合基金尤其是高雄地區這些跟離岸風電有關的這些業界我們一定會來做一些研議做處理這部分目前在做第二點我們來討論來研議那第三點我們這個本來就要按照合約要有違應的句話這個在合約上是非常有明確的一個"},{"start":3273.799,"end":3287.926,"text":"好,這三點都一個月內提出具體方案好嗎?好,好,謝謝,謝謝次長。好,謝謝林代化委員。次長請回座。消費執行請邱毅英委員。"},{"start":3301.049,"end":3325.082,"text":"呃,謝謝主席。我請一下環境部。請環環境部施市長。委員好。欸,市長好。市長我想這個首次喔,在這邊就這個碳費徵收的問題請教齁。那有幾個問題我想我就直接問,因為主席對時間控管非常的嚴格齁。"},{"start":3328.932,"end":3348.718,"text":"市長您剛剛講到這個碳被徵收的問題這個表格是你們環境部做的嗎?是那現在其實公總有提出來說臺灣的收費標準其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國但環境部的說法是沒有"},{"start":3349.758,"end":3367.247,"text":"但是我看到這個表格我們實際的碳價水準日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每一公噸收64.7元韓國實際只有收5.7元那台灣呢你的一般費率是300還有優惠費率是50跟100"},{"start":3368.988,"end":3384.875,"text":"所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的"},{"start":3385.535,"end":3410.327,"text":"好 各位委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個"},{"start":3414.43,"end":3434.745,"text":"這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定"},{"start":3443.451,"end":3447.433,"text":"另外第二個就是說我要再請教一個就是你們現在有談到2030年之後我們的一般費率會隨著調漲隨著世界的這個趨勢去調漲可能未來你們會調漲到1200到1800左右這是費率審議會的建議那你的優惠費率呢?也會跟著調漲嗎?"},{"start":3463.58,"end":3480.467,"text":"我們在審議會的過程當中委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲優惠費率也是跟著調漲的跟著一般費率的基準去調漲它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大鼓勵收費對象提支付這兩句話所以你們現在調漲的"},{"start":3482.007,"end":3490.231,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":3498.596,"end":3523.37,"text":"另外要跟您討論就是這個CBAM的部分剛剛您談到就是說CBAM這個現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施那台灣會不會有沒有做這樣的規劃因為剛剛就從您的報告裡頭其實聽不出來到底環境部對於台灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案來次長"},{"start":3523.77,"end":3537.613,"text":"有,我們其實去年6月已經有跨部會討論過如果要實施台版CBAM我們會有需要哪一些事前的準備工作每一個部會要做合作因為從歐盟的經驗來想我想我們國內有很多特別是扣件業者他在面臨歐盟CBAM的一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙那我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反應"},{"start":3548.135,"end":3552.916,"text":"那變成是說將來我們光在因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量是所以光申報這件事情我們在看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑是一個貿易障礙因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報的過程當中的困難所以這是第一點"},{"start":3569.481,"end":3573.365,"text":"第二點我想對於進口的應該是說對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業我們的做法是先讓他的徵收排放量如果他提自主減量計畫可以打兩折所以這個做法其實跟歐盟他從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易"},{"start":3588.101,"end":3590.102,"text":"他用這個製造業有免費配額有一個比例的這個狀況而沒有先走這個邊境調整措施的做法是相同的用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過度調整期"},{"start":3603.266,"end":3629.797,"text":"市長我要請教您您剛剛講的這一個部分有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界有做過這樣的座談或者是說跟工種其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情就是說我們現在開始收了這樣的一個碳費之後比如說像這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的這個碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭其實它在中國進口進來的"},{"start":3632.998,"end":3635.08,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":3652.572,"end":3665.143,"text":"其實是會有巨大的影響的。所以您剛剛講到的這個CBAM的,台版的CBAM的這個規,如果說初期在構想的這個規劃的階段,我不曉得跟產業界的溝通如何?"},{"start":3666.108,"end":3680.601,"text":"我們跟這個水泥業跟石化業其實都有討論過那他們也有明確告訴我們說其實台版的CBAM對他們來說很重要那我們的規劃就是第一個在收費排放量上讓他有先打兩折減輕這個碳費給他一個過度的這個轉型第二個是我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論從產品申報開始讓這個進口的這個水泥業、石化或者是"},{"start":3694.417,"end":3696.918,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":3705.312,"end":3705.973,"text":"接下來要談到這個就很敏感了"},{"start":3734.106,"end":3759.802,"text":"那你這個碳費收了之後你的比例要怎麼分配?這個來我先說一下當然這個我們台中市長盧秀燕盧市長說這個八成要留在地方啦那留在地方怎麼留?其實高雄市市長也認為這個碳費的收取你應該是要按照一些比例去做分配你所有的碳排最多的應該是高雄"},{"start":3761.384,"end":3766.174,"text":"但是收費最多的也會是在高雄如果分配的比例"},{"start":3767.375,"end":3791.666,"text":"最多不是在高雄,那就很奇怪啦。第二個,你要怎麼樣去分配,要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢。這一筆錢呢,這個你們部長講的話講得很重啦,他說這個拿來做利益分贓或是政府的財務手段,我是不同意他的這幾個字啦,這個不叫利益分贓。但是你一旦收取了這個碳費,"},{"start":3793.626,"end":3809.743,"text":"繳交多的產業繳交多的縣市排碳量高的縣市或者是減碳量高的縣市你應該給予它更多的比例分配補助或者是講助我想這個原則你們應該是可以同意吧"},{"start":3810.383,"end":3825.456,"text":"我們其實是對於具體有減碳計畫的這個補助一定是會有那因為這個不叫具體減碳計畫我告訴你寫計畫書大家都很會寫每個縣市都很會寫可是他的縣市他其實沒有沒有這麼多的排碳量他寫了一個洋洋沙灑的計畫書寫得很漂亮"},{"start":3827.378,"end":3851.09,"text":"那你也去補助他這也很奇怪阿跟委員報告啦如果用減碳量來分其實有好多個縣市是完全分不到碳費的收入所以這個在使用上他完全分不到是因為他也沒有什麼排碳量嘛那排碳量高的縣市反而分得少這個就很奇怪阿所以我覺得這個應該要好好的再討論一下而不是現在你們用這個方式就去公佈阿好謝謝委員好謝謝邱委員委員次長請回座"},{"start":3856.267,"end":3856.467,"text":"請楊瓊怡委員"},{"start":3879.168,"end":3905.982,"text":"兩位次長尤其經濟部首先要請教也就是卓院長跟外媒他也特別說了新核能的科技它是全面性的非常開放所以首先要請教次長所謂的卓院長所提出的新核能科技是什麼請教"},{"start":3909.414,"end":3911.895,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":3925.163,"end":3927.425,"text":"所以請問目前為止因為行政院長已經提出那部會是不是有相關的研議有沒有"},{"start":3949.127,"end":3961.088,"text":"我們有持續在研議的方向是跟卓院長一樣也就是說新核能的科技的態度是非常開放"},{"start":3962.702,"end":3978.987,"text":"以前是非核家園嘛 對不對那現在你們是採取跟世界接軌的 非常開放的態度 是不是我們不預設任何立場 因為這樣的是 各界對於這樣的信任基礎市長 卓院長接受彭博的專訪他提起喔"},{"start":3979.767,"end":4002.195,"text":"他已經提了他竟然會提起你是經濟部是最重要的幕僚長方向應該跟行政院長的方向是一樣的嘛是不是?因為我們有在關注各項跟核能有關的這樣的一個發電的科技所以你認不認同卓院長所說的也就是說新核能科技的態度是非常開放"},{"start":4003.348,"end":4029.756,"text":"對,我們目前是用開放的態度在面對這個問題是非常開放嘛這跟卓院長同一部的嘛之前我們一直說經濟部長次長在這裡經濟部長要上任的時候說核能是一個乾淨的能源他這麼說接下來我們要求說那麼核二、核三是不是可以研議但是拿了一部法叫做什麼環境基本法第23條"},{"start":4031.872,"end":4053.649,"text":"拿了這個法來做阻擋牆那請教次長您剛才說的也跟卓院長的論點一樣新核能的科技的態度我們政府因為你是經濟部那麼政府是非常開放那你們是不是會將環境基本法的第23條會來修請教"},{"start":4057.659,"end":4086.815,"text":"那環境基本法的那個主管機關應該是在那個那個環境部這邊你要有你的立場啊因為你是持非常態度啊那我們要求你合二合三要研議你說因為有了這一部法啊那同時也說了除非修法所以你必須你所要的你會不會要求環境部你會不會提出要來修法會不會請教就目前法令來講法令規定是你會不會提出我們還是會依法來來行政的"},{"start":4087.993,"end":4100.739,"text":"哇!那民眾每一天就好像在撒謊啊!解籤詩啊!一個院長告訴我們是非常開放的態度那現在又有一個《環境基本法》的第23條在那裡那民眾該當要聽哪一個?要聽哪一個?"},{"start":4105.273,"end":4128.796,"text":"所以,次長,本期再請教,我們不要讓民眾每天好像在撒謊,各解自己的意思,政府應該要有一個方向告訴民眾。所以請教,您說你們隨時都有在研議,再一次請教,我們針對於政府目前針對於新核能的科技的態度,是不是誠如左院長所說的,是非常開放?"},{"start":4129.266,"end":4139.776,"text":"就不會預設任何立場我們歡迎各界在討論這個問題而且現在在總統委設立國家氣候變遷對策委員會也有一些委員有針對這個議題在進行討論"},{"start":4141.556,"end":4166.536,"text":"所以是採非常開放的途徑在走好 那所以次長在這邊次長您聽到經濟部次長的這個說法那環境部本身您會不會也依照卓院長的方向就是非常開放所以也不一定是依照的我們的環境基準法的第23條非核家園請說明好 我有好跟委員報告"},{"start":4167.689,"end":4178.785,"text":"我們以環境部的立場來說任何的新的能源我們也其實就是整個行政團隊都是採取比較開放的態度但前提以環境部來講就是"},{"start":4179.464,"end":4197.429,"text":"他必須對環境來說是不會有再來負面的效益那再來就是其實環境部在這個做環評的過程當中會發現比較這個需要很大的社會共識來推動一些這個類似像過往然後像比如說以核能來說"},{"start":4198.189,"end":4212.901,"text":"所以就環境部的立場而言環境基本法目前的這個寫法是我們必須要依法那也會希望說這個對於任何形式的能源我們要確定它對環境沒有負面的衝擊或負面衝擊可以減輕"},{"start":4214.761,"end":4232.836,"text":"那也希望可以取得社會的共識再來做推動所以換句話說也是朝開放的立場你這麼說法我們也歡喜聽到你開放的立場但是我們看到現在我們面對的也就是碳費補助的問題您的部長他說了"},{"start":4233.817,"end":4238.84,"text":"他的本來就是專款專用在這個項目,怎麼樣去檢探這個項目。但是,您的部長說了一句什麼話呢?說如果留在地方,它是分贓,是利益分贓。您認同這一句話嗎?您認同這一句話嗎?"},{"start":4256.603,"end":4278.09,"text":"產出在我們地方欸我真的傻眼怎麼會有部長這麼說竟然提出利益分贓我再告訴你盧秀燕市長說至少八成的碳費留在地方蔣萬安市長說支持取之於地方用之於地方的概念把碳費留給地方是更有效率的第一線執行第一線執行"},{"start":4280.291,"end":4307.788,"text":"陳其邁市長也說,碳費留在地方應該是這樣子的。張立善縣長也說,碳費至少要一半留在地方。我們的彭部長也說,他說,取之於社會,取之於企業,用之於企業,補助企業實質減碳作為,來作為總量管制,但相關的碳牌的這個設備以及方案,對不對?這個目的,我要告訴你,"},{"start":4308.772,"end":4335.539,"text":"做一個我們的政府官員不要水口而出另一分張讓全國都傻眼臺中是我們的中火我們的中火我們看到我們的中火被報導全球碳污染的是全球的第19名碳排量的3419萬噸沒有理由不協助我們上次我也給部長講"},{"start":4336.599,"end":4341.502,"text":"一定要好好的協助臺中在淨零碳排的部分必須專案去處理那麼也得到部長的一個認同他說的確你們現在在考慮這個內容的時候必須要納入因為它是全球最嚴重的中火燃煤的這個污染源排、排碳的這個部分所以我們也談到必須要以價自量以價自量必須要將你的碳藍圖"},{"start":4367.76,"end":4386.514,"text":"以及你的碳費要怎麼做要讓民眾去了解這一點是非常重要所以我再一次的強調政府做事情你不用只有在冷氣房裡頭來做決策你應該要看到人民的所需所以我再一次強調部長說的如果把碳費"},{"start":4387.535,"end":4389.957,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":4403.806,"end":4406.448,"text":"這是王美花部長當時答應的我們務必要照期程去做所以我再次的要求針對於中火的這個議案你必須在他們的裡頭專案去研討怎麼樣協助我們中部地區你認同嗎?"},{"start":4424.984,"end":4437.047,"text":"中部地區的這個中火的污染其實空污費我們有留一定的比例有在補助在協助那這個我們也在這個減碳的這個計畫上本席跟你講碳費你說到空污費空污費現在目前在執行這麼多年就是以六成在地方對不對所以我們希望好好的去研討協助地方專款專用這個碳費讓企業跟地方都能夠安心嘛好不好專款專用沒有問題"},{"start":4451.792,"end":4454.434,"text":"主席,我想先請環境部施次長環境部施次長"},{"start":4479.222,"end":4495.314,"text":"市長早那針對碳費開徵之後的分配問題近日已經有多個縣市首長都呼籲碳費應該至少有八成留在地方那針對這一點環境部對於分配給中央跟地方的比例有沒有過討論?"},{"start":4498.595,"end":4498.695,"text":"邀請經濟部首長．"},{"start":4528.735,"end":4531.176,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":4552.523,"end":4556.587,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":4568.138,"end":4569.619,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":4598.238,"end":4600.44,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長就:「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．"},{"start":4622.262,"end":4640.812,"text":"明明就是不一樣嘛,你碳費的收費制度方式就是空污費的翻版嘛。但排放量最大的區域就是污染的所在地。那取之地方用之地方,地方的污染源、角角、碳費地方應該就應該得到經費的分配啊,讓地方有經費可以"},{"start":4646.275,"end":4663.543,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助推動環保．永續淨零排碳的工作．才有辦法繼續進行．所以本席要求環境部應該競速地提出對策那本席也主張有鑒於固定污染源．然後營建污染源的部分．分別都有60至100%移交給地方之規定"},{"start":4667.065,"end":4670.753,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":4678.817,"end":4703.574,"text":"我覺得我建議我建議環境部不要再一味的反對因為提出對岸我們大家才有討論的空間跟我們報告這個《空污法》是107年那這個108年有這個《財政紀律法》通過的時候其實有對這個都不一定比例做限制你現在繼續在講也是反對的意見嗎那我想要請那個聯治長一起上來看一下來接下來看一下這個"},{"start":4708.345,"end":4712.448,"text":"我想要請教一下次長 這個表格是你們環境部製作的吧是那你仔細看一下仔細看一下說日本他的碳價標準64.7元然後韓國實質碳價5.7元然後包括這個"},{"start":4730.595,"end":4734.218,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":4748.152,"end":4755.758,"text":"臺灣臨近幾個國家的這個碳價收取標準包括新加坡它當然是稍微比較高一點它是139.8至233但它製造業幾乎是零所以我想要請教一下就是連部長"},{"start":4766.908,"end":4787.281,"text":"這個裡面喔算的這個實質碳價就是企業在使用了他們的免費配額之後實質上每公噸需要繳交的碳價那您覺得這個費率會不會影響我們臺灣產業的競爭力這個我分兩個講一個是高碳洩漏其實如果就目前那個優惠費利比的話100塊因為它有80%是免費所以變成每一噸它應該是20塊"},{"start":4793.139,"end":4804.439,"text":"應該是介於在那個日本跟韓國這中間當然一般產業他要提自主減量優惠費100那這一部分我們會來協助他來提自主減量計畫來降低這個衝擊"},{"start":4805.848,"end":4813.416,"text":"而且在那個一般產業的話其實它有一個2.5萬噸這個我都知道我只是想要請教兩位市長針對碳費的議題你們有沒有收集全國相關產業的意見因為據我所知像工業總會工業總會它佔了"},{"start":4824.708,"end":4845.996,"text":"全國GDP4成以上．那公會的理事長潘俊榮他就有很具體的建議說．包含碳費的費率偏高．不利於產業低碳轉型．而且目前呢．碳費的規劃沒有跟台版的CBAM同步．呼籲政府應該盡速的實施臺版的CBAM．"},{"start":4846.556,"end":4853.405,"text":"那最重要的是要考慮周遭國家的情況那公總他也認為說碳費應該要對標韓國那你自己算假設是50塊的話就高韓國9倍假設是100塊的話是將近幾倍"},{"start":4866.281,"end":4875.439,"text":"15倍那如果假設是你說的20塊那也是4倍左右啦3點多倍4倍左右你覺得這樣不會影響我們產業的競爭力嗎?"},{"start":4879.757,"end":4887.283,"text":"當然產業針對這個碳費的收取都會有一些衝擊性但是我們一定是可以透過一些相關政策來講因為經濟部是全國產業的主管機關你們必須要為產業爭取啊否則我們的產業如果活不下去的話我們台灣的競爭力當然無存欸因為這個在碳費、費力委員會在審議這樣的一個碳費過程中我們經濟部是有提出極力爭取才有現在這個"},{"start":4905.168,"end":4911.633,"text":"到目前為止我聽到的產業這方面的意見大家還是哇哇叫他們還是覺得說這不只是影響了他們的競爭力甚至他們獲利的能力也大大的減少了我看了這個圖表其實本席是一則以喜一則以憂因為喜的是我們對淨零排蛋真的相當有決心比照周遭的國家還要積極"},{"start":4931.109,"end":4938.373,"text":"那優的是,產業會不會受到大大的衝擊呢?影響我們的國際競爭力?那這經濟部到底有沒有評估過呢?因為產業競爭力就是我們國家的命脈,我們不可能自斷經脈來達成這個淨零的目標嘛,你們同不同意?"},{"start":4949.58,"end":4964.273,"text":"當然一定衝擊啦這個而且我們有去做出那個影響評估所以才在碳利費利委員會把我們影響評估把各位委員去做報告最後這個是一個大家共同決議出來那我們當然是如果能夠越低越好那本席幾"},{"start":4965.134,"end":4993.449,"text":"本席建議就是說假設你實施了之後真的對產業衝擊太大本席建議你必須要重新盤點重新考慮而且呢也希望說你們要儘速的啟動台版的CBAM因為CBAM的這個推動是迫在眉睫產業界都希望你們能夠加快腳步確保本土的產業在國際碳稅的壓力之下不會失去競爭力那目前喔日本也在研擬類似的機制所以"},{"start":4993.789,"end":4995.37,"text":"呼籲臺灣要儘速跟上腳步。"},{"start":5026.426,"end":5034.528,"text":"市長,部長今天為什麼又請假?他怎麼又見請了嗎?是不幹了還是怎麼樣?他宴會去日本已經被罵啦!他怎麼樣?是上禮拜講了要去菲律賓"},{"start":5057.858,"end":5081.716,"text":"蓋電廠是你被罵,現在又不來?今天這個會,我知道主席剛剛有報告,那個會那麼重要嗎?今天有28位立法委員要質詢欸這輕重緩急,我不要用藐視國會這麼重的話啦就是說這本來,包括賴清德、賴總統都講啦你們執政黨的立委,或者說從政黨員就要來他不是在挑戰賴清德、賴總統嗎?"},{"start":5084.039,"end":5100.843,"text":"這是不是本來就是部會首長該做的事情?這外界會怎麼解讀?好不好?市長你回去跟部長講一下下次不能再請假了好不好?下次不能再請假了好昨天本席開了一個很重要的記者會就是攸關我們電力發展"},{"start":5103.032,"end":5129.574,"text":"三接第三天然氣這個接收站的他發生了兩個很嚴重的問題就是他這個保冷的這個管線的這個保冷這個係數不足第一個他用了國際上已經禁用了活力天這個有改進我昨天看我假把李董找上來昨天看起來中油的反應還算是正面的還算是正面的他答應說很清楚的表示說如果這個材質有問題"},{"start":5130.675,"end":5156.985,"text":"要換掉嘛 對不對那如果是新進的 因為工程現在是一半1點 這個山街從碼頭到儲存槽1.6公里的這個管線目前做了大概50%嘛那這50有問題的要趕快拆好不好不能夠像昨天我開記者會之前問你們你們說要邊做邊改一次改一公尺請協中 請協中該協中第一個速度比較慢嘛第一個是公安問題 那天然氣如果漏出來"},{"start":5158.519,"end":5185.071,"text":"這個不得了的事情所以這個第一個要趕快做這個安裝上去我們一定會盡快把它整個全部把它OK一定要做那個所以次長你有掌握這個進度嘛對不對這事情你有掌握嘛對不對有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":5187.623,"end":5214.082,"text":"結果他6月10號他跟我講3J在明年4月份一定會建完對不對我就問他喔你一定要如期喔你不如期沒有接收在那個斷氣啊對不對你河山廠的2號機明年就停了嘛你5月份要停你4月沒有蓋好他說有把握好那經過昨天這個事情你沒辦法要改了對不對今天保證包括你包括中右董事長如期3J可以在明年的4月完成嗎"},{"start":5215.674,"end":5240.707,"text":"可不可以跟委員報告依據我們目前對進度的掌握那所有包括這些保養材料的更新我們都來得及以目前我們掌握的進度來得及在明年在我們要試運行之前完全更新完畢跟委員報告我們一個原則就是說我如期的前提是如此"},{"start":5241.407,"end":5260.239,"text":"我品質一定要．當然當然當然這個品質就是我昨天講那兩個李董跟市長我昨天講的這個是很嚴重的一個弊案你本來要保冷的欸那個天然氣在輸送這個過程裡面零下162度C欸那個不能開玩笑的就你的保冷那個係數不夠"},{"start":5262.8,"end":5286.722,"text":"而且你一邊做一邊改那隨時天然氣出來可能這次有爆炸這是很嚴重的事情所以一定要改好不好速度第一個是安全第一個是安全我昨天記者會講的內容一定要改這是一個安全第二個要如期要完成要不然到時候就缺電就斷氣了好我進一步來問這事情經過崔少哲選舉完之後我跟中友還有跟經濟部所知"},{"start":5287.588,"end":5296.018,"text":"我們看一下我所知的內容要的是契約書的影印本要是忠友跟陳寶釗往來的公文這個啦你多了三大個喔到現在都沒有給我喔"},{"start":5297.725,"end":5318.832,"text":"第一個,你沒有提供企業書的本身,你給我一個什麼保冷的規範,我上網我找就有啊,對不對?第二個也很嚴重,往來公文裡面漏掉兩筆非常關鍵的,包括你們發現問題的公文,你們都把它蓋起來了。第三個,廠商跟台電公文現在不完整,現在本席很清楚,你們現在改善的同時,這三份東西,三天內送到本席辦公室可以嗎?"},{"start":5320.06,"end":5320.44,"text":"這次有三個很大的廠商第一家"},{"start":5339.228,"end":5366.594,"text":"這是日本很大很大的公司耶他負責這次整個接收站的這個設備跟管線的統包最主要是他然後右下角這個這個是韓國的公司他負責提供材料可是你看這張長大的文章出在韓國這間公司該保冷的沒有用了國際上已經蒙特羅議定書裡面已經用了佛立青他竟然也用了這個都要多去追究責任另外中頂負責什麼工程施工的進度的監管包括"},{"start":5367.776,"end":5370.677,"text":"另外我要問,到目前為止材料造假,你們只做了一個處分,只有做了扣點。"},{"start":5386.463,"end":5405.418,"text":"欸,這不夠喔!人民一方面要看的是安全,對不對?一方面,如果真的這個廠商有問題的話,我問你,你看他自行抽案不合格的報告,結果你是有擴展進去處罰,人家會不會說你是放水?等一下,有造假紀錄的廠商,你現在要給我找?你第一個你要不要再叫他做?"},{"start":5406.397,"end":5422.277,"text":"正常是不應該讓他做啦那你現在說這個重大工程那你一定要嚴格監督好不好追究責任嚴格監督而且確保一定安全是 報告委員我們會依據那個企業來執行那這個案子當然我們看到中游的基層員工監守崗位這應該要加獎啦"},{"start":5423.066,"end":5441.565,"text":"要肯定好不好所以今天市長在這邊董事長在這邊我跟你講基層的員工是讓人家感動的他主動去發解問題去解決問題對不對回去要激光要嘉獎要好不好這件事情要做要鼓勵這個好的這個文化中有很好的這個文化第二個李董也很重要你現在負責善後"},{"start":5442.492,"end":5470.385,"text":"所以次長你在這邊也會去跟部長講如果散落得很好也應該對李董應該是要加獎的好不好我們已經在後續在處理這件事情好來OK另外一個案子也是非常李董你先請為好謝謝我在六月五月份開了一個很重要的記者會臺元綠能兩年虧了2.5億那個是我們人民的納稅錢而且那嚴重的是什麼綠油有沒有賺到保現在最新進度是昨天"},{"start":5472.535,"end":5497.651,"text":"臺南地檢署三十二路大搜索包括前臺原綠能的董事長陳啟毓跟總經理五個人今天早上最新的進度已經被生壓進鑑了我請董事長現在幫我做幾件事情第一個 把這個 董事長跟這個次長 來做這幾件事情第一個 臺原綠能這個案子裡面到底虧損了多少錢這是我們人民納稅錢"},{"start":5499.192,"end":5524.16,"text":"他現在把我們人民納稅錢．左手換右手．透過移少報多．把我們人民納稅錢弄到一粒一粒有有．弄到下游廠商的這個口袋裡面去了．所以現在被生壓進監了．可是第一個．請查清楚到目前為止我們人民納稅錢．損失了多少錢．第二個更重要的．你們要提出一個追償的計畫好不好．這個錢被．被拿走了嘛．"},{"start":5525.1,"end":5545.608,"text":"那這不法的事情啊,請把這個錢追回來。第三個,對台演做一個,台演綠領做一個行政調查,目前有做嗎?有沒有做?應該有做,有。有做齁,那什麼時候可以給我?我們之前在那個報告委員,我們之前已經有做過行政調查,我們可以把報告再提供給委員。所以今天就可以送過來了嗎?"},{"start":5548.483,"end":5565.039,"text":"另外最重要的,最重要就是這個事情要發生,要趕快撲破。所以就要做一些預防措施,你要從製度那邊去改啊。一個禮拜你給我一個報告,包括立法院該怎麼修法,好不好?這個是人民納稅錢不能夠這樣透過一個無軌搬運。"},{"start":5567.381,"end":5567.901,"text":"來 次長先請回座"},{"start":5602.123,"end":5622.74,"text":"下一位質詢,請謝一鳳委員。謝謝主席。我想要請我們聯次長跟我們環境部的施次長。環境部施次長"},{"start":5625.794,"end":5629.974,"text":"不好意思可以幫我把那個關掉一下嗎?這個是誰的?"},{"start":5633.931,"end":5659.658,"text":"我想請問一下兩位次長就是我們現在臺灣的碳費它涵蓋的是54%然後500個工廠跟281家企業但是我想要請問我們增碳費的最大的原因就是為了可以抵銷就是歐盟的那個CBAM對不對那有多少人可以抵銷歐盟CBAM"},{"start":5662.619,"end":5666.502,"text":"應該是鋼鐵。應該是鋼鐵,就是扣件。因為我們歐盟CBAM它有一些繳費的對象,並不是我們碳費收費的對象。所以不是全部的人都需要繳,因為他們所使用的原料鋼在我們這邊是會收碳費的。"},{"start":5684.697,"end":5707.354,"text":"我們也在跟歐盟去談說這個如果他的原料比如說扣件業因為扣件業台灣是目前大部分是不用繳碳費但他們所使用的原料鋼如果用中鋼這個我們是有的所以我們在因為歐盟自己對於他要怎麼抵扣的計算還沒有出來但是我們的碳費確實是他的法規當中所承認可以抵扣的"},{"start":5710.535,"end":5737.333,"text":"請問因為目前歐盟CBAM也是一個過渡期那就是說廠商必須要申報進口產品的碳含量但是目前我們如果按照我們的預設值來申報那到底歐盟會不會認定我們在台灣申報的這樣子的第三方的單位查證呢?"},{"start":5738.438,"end":5738.459,"text":"二、"},{"start":5740.311,"end":5769.137,"text":"目前就是在這個產品在做申報的時候先不用做查證這是一個那第二個就是呢等2026年歐盟實際要收錢就是要去買這個CBAM憑證的時候他的這個產品碳含量才需要查證這是第一點跟委員報告目前不用碳對目前在申報的過程還不用那第二點再跟委員報告就是說未來在真的實際要繳CBAM憑證的時候他只收產品的直接排放"},{"start":5769.657,"end":5770.137,"text":"因為歐盟目前總量管制跟交易還有免費配額："},{"start":5796.71,"end":5800.411,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之"},{"start":5826.454,"end":5845.39,"text":"這個我跟我們報告是我們環境部明年開始就會有一個這個駐歐盟的代表所以我們會跟歐盟去談說認證查驗機構可不可以有可能取得相互認證所以這一塊在歐盟自己的規則還在這個草擬的過程當中我們趕快想要趁這個機會跟他去談"},{"start":5847.051,"end":5871.482,"text":"那就是根據我們經濟部的統計喔,次長有鋼鐵的相關扣件還有鋁製的產業喔它就有2000多家是出口到歐盟去欸那不少都是中小企業那其中有3500家會受到CBAM的影響欸那這個對於我們國內的中小企業有什麼樣子的影響?"},{"start":5872.182,"end":5881.734,"text":"跟委員報告這三應該是本來是有4000多家那後來他們我們有全部跟我們貿易署這邊一起全部調查後來有差不多將近3560幾家就是說他要來接受我們的輔導還有申報"},{"start":5887.361,"end":5891.605,"text":"後來真正申報只有2000應該是2300還是2400這裡面有包含一些貿易商那這個我們全部都已經協助他完成申報了那當然這個某種程度他因為他本來不用繳這個稅他會繳這個稅嘛那我們目前其實在去應該是最近兩年我們針對南部的羅斯羅貿扣件"},{"start":5908.42,"end":5918.25,"text":"這一塊我們是有成立一個專案計畫有全部來協助他把這個碳的含量把它降低下來甚至在上游中鋼那部分我們也有去做了一些處理"},{"start":5920.03,"end":5943.125,"text":"我是想要了解如果目前因為我去了解我們地方的民眾我們也希望說能夠協助小農去讓他們有碳匯然後可以來進行碳交易那增加農民的收入可是目前我看到了相關的環境部你們到底有沒有就這些農民給予協助啊"},{"start":5944.245,"end":5949.888,"text":"跟委員報告就是如果要依照我們的自願減量管理辦法要來取得碳權要先有一個減量方法論那土壤碳匯的這一個議題因為目前國內還沒有減量方法那農業部已經好像打算有在研擬這個減量方法所以我們等這個我們會跟農業部就是加快腳步去看說"},{"start":5966.036,"end":5971.481,"text":"因為現在碳權交易所已經開始了那結果我們的農民、我們的漁民以及我們相關的民眾都沒有辦法申請相關的碳權那在這樣子的情況下就是說環境部你怎麼樣子協助?"},{"start":5991.898,"end":6021.401,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們的這個碳交所上架的碳權是2015年之後我們就有做遞換專案那都是比較偏製造業那再來就是自願減量專案因為整個這個投資包括要查驗證它的這個資本跟技術投入比較大所以我們的自願減量管理辦法裡面是有提到說個人沒有辦法申請一定是要透過這個政府機關或者是這個團體來做申請那什麼樣子的可以申請團體的部分"},{"start":6022.541,"end":6048.359,"text":"只要不是個人．比如說他如果成立一個合作社．就是他只要是一個法人．或者是一個機構．他都可以來申請自願檢查專案．對,他就個人不行．對,個人不行．所以只要是農民團體也可以嗎．可以．如果他是有成立一個團體的話．是沒有問題．所以農民團體也可以協助我們的農民．因為你必須要告訴．而且但是現在目前．"},{"start":6049.179,"end":6058.885,"text":"方法論都沒有出來怎麼樣子協助他們對於土壤的碳費這樣子能夠增加他們綠色收益嗎不要讓他們變成就是未來會綠色通膨的這樣子的一個受害者嗎對,農業部的這個土壤的減量方法論我們會加快跟農業部討論怎麼快速的讓他減量方法論可以過因為減量方法論其實國際上我們也希望跟國際是對標的啦那這樣產出的碳權"},{"start":6078.558,"end":6079.399,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":6093.809,"end":6117.359,"text":"就是你現在講的都是關於螺絲控件、鋼鐵相關的但是對於中小企業過去你們有以大代小以及減碳的輔導相關的這樣子的措施但是我認為對於未來中小企業會面臨到的相關的這些綠色的成本怎麼樣子降低你必須要協助他們"},{"start":6118.65,"end":6144.862,"text":"會,會,我們其實剛剛講的那個只是講針對特定的產業,因為它面臨這樣一次比較急迫性,所以有一個比較專案的計畫,那其他的我們會一般性的計畫,我們目前都有減碳或節能的計畫,再來協助這些中小企業,尤其是我們中技術這邊就有相關計畫在執行。好,好,謝謝,謝謝主席。謝謝,謝謝鳳委員非常精準的質詢。來,次長請回座。"},{"start":6147.478,"end":6158.833,"text":"今天聲音比較有磁性下位質詢請李玉玲委員謝謝主席請連長次請經濟部連次長"},{"start":6170.935,"end":6196.805,"text":"市長現在我們因應全球暖化的效應全世界也透過這個管制要來限縮這個二氧化碳的這個排放量那我們特別今天也針對這個碳費的標準環境部也已經公布了要來實施但是很遺憾的就是環境部沒有聽取我們經濟部的建議在議會的B方案裡面你們希望說用這個區間的價格"},{"start":6200.206,"end":6214.092,"text":"讓產業都能夠在這個整個國際上能夠更有競爭力但是沒有被接受了那尤其這個在二氧化碳的2.5公噸每一公噸是300元因為A方案是50元B方案是100元"},{"start":6215.052,"end":6228.6,"text":"在這個情形之下我們看到我們產業未來的財政負擔會更加的沉重那是不是你要跟這個環境部多多的來溝通看用滾動式的這個檢討來做一個調整讓產業這個壓力不會太重跟委員報告其實我們那個在委員會裡面我們的代表有針對這一塊"},{"start":6238.531,"end":6249.937,"text":"來做跟環境部還有相關的委員做溝通那我們也有在建立說像這樣的碳費如果現在實施完之後如果確實是對產業有造成極大影響應該要馬上來進行一些滾動式的調整立刻做修正嘛這樣才能夠幫助產業的這個困境"},{"start":6256.88,"end":6266.922,"text":"那因為本席能夠理解因為你要減少這個碳排未來整個國際的趨勢那也必須要投入一些資源來進行這個減碳的一些方式但是產業來配合我們政府的這個政策的話它需要的是時間跟一些成本但是我們看到我們訂出來的這個我們碳費的這個價格是非常的高那尤其是醫會的方案條件也非常的嚴苛所以造成的產業它"},{"start":6287.468,"end":6312.546,"text":"會發生的就是說他的盈餘啊他拿盈餘來做這些投資的話那他本身在這個減碳轉型式上面的話他拿出他自己很多的盈餘來做他沒有辦法再有餘力來投資在這種情況之下的話他就變成說可能他為了要生存他就外移到其他國家他如果想要留在台灣的話他可能就要停工、要減產"},{"start":6313.767,"end":6333.201,"text":"二、減少被徵收這個碳費．那如果這種情形之下的話．他減產之後的話．他就沒有這麼多的盈餘．可能就會由盈轉到虧．那轉虧的情形之下．他就變成說他必須要用財源的方式．才能夠繼續的營運下去．在這種情形下．你經濟部要怎麼協助他們呢?"},{"start":6333.821,"end":6345.996,"text":"公園報告其實這個我們面對這樣的一個碳費不是現在才發生的啦因為國際上像歐盟跟其他有其他國家我們老早就注意到減碳這個議題所以我們在做減碳的其實已經有做了5、6年的一個節能減碳或是那個溫室氣體"},{"start":6352.219,"end":6371.957,"text":"降低了這樣的一個輔導的計畫那剛才委員有提到說那他如果沒有多餘的錢其實我們有推動一些投融資就針對減碳這一部分尤其在我們中信署這邊我們投入了一些信保甚至是10成、9成的一個信保另外一個就是我們這一次在你給他貸款的意思信保給他貸款來做一些投資這個減碳的一些措施"},{"start":6376.121,"end":6388.346,"text":"利率是低利率然後有做一些利息的他還是要還錢啊對那另外一個第二個就是在租稅優惠我們在產創實施因為今年屆期我們應該是在11月份會送到大院這邊來審查那我們針對這一部分我們特別把節能減碳特別把它拉出來那這一部分如果產業有投入這樣的減碳他是可以享受一些租稅優惠"},{"start":6401.112,"end":6417.004,"text":"所以其實可以降低一些衝擊所以你們沒有辦法用補助的只有一些減稅優惠然後而且給他們一些這個低利貸款而已那再補助有補助就是說如果你廠商你要再去做一些技術提升或剛才講的你要把碳"},{"start":6417.911,"end":6420.454,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":6436.853,"end":6453.892,"text":"對,減碳這一部分去做讓你的員工的職能去做提升這些都需要時間跟成本對,所以我才跟委員報告其實我們做這種減碳不是現在才在做其實之前蔡總統那時候我們一上來市長,你要了解說你們現在所有這些方案來講的話"},{"start":6454.693,"end":6476.207,"text":"你們也有一些經濟部也針對這個未來收碳費你們都有做一些評估的報告雖然說你們說這個物價的話影響的不大但是你不要忘了剛剛電價才在產業調漲了12.5%而且明年的基本這個工資又調到28,590元這些都是他們負擔的財務的問題都會影響他們未來的整個營運狀況這個你們都要給他們關心"},{"start":6484.056,"end":6489.8,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長"},{"start":6507.834,"end":6511.598,"text":"跟我們報告我們這個會先從規劃讓這個進口產品做產品碳含量的申報因為進口商這邊我們可以比照歐盟阿對我們已經有他們很成熟的一個機制了嘛那為什麼會這樣提到因為我們國內已經收了這個碳費表示就是讓產業他的成本能提高了那如果說"},{"start":6528.735,"end":6531.458,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":6546.934,"end":6546.954,"text":"是,對。"},{"start":6571.329,"end":6576.434,"text":"好,這個也是解決這個產業的困境的一部分啦。這個碳關稅、這邊境管理我們還是要協助幫忙好不好。好,那再來就是說因為現在中油跟台電它就是高碳的、高碳量的"},{"start":6587.425,"end":6600.736,"text":"這個一個生化的這個石化的一個部分那所以說那現在中油跟台電虧損上千億上百億都有了在這種情形之下經濟部你會補助他這個碳費嗎"},{"start":6602.982,"end":6621.952,"text":"這個當然我們不會補助他因為這個東西其實那個像台電他現在差不多500萬嘛那如果是他最後而且他是屬於那個你說自主碳排的話你會乘以0.20.2也是0.2就變成本來是要繳15億他現在變成只要繳差不多繳大概要5億、3億全部加起來來數"},{"start":6625.103,"end":6646.495,"text":"全部加起來15億這樣?是啊,所以你要補助嗎?你董事長,他們很辛苦,他們現在已經虧損了,他們都吸收,像你的天然氣14塊錢,民間那個瓦斯桶的話,你只給他8塊錢而已,他都吸收進來了,所以他的費用非常的高,那現在又收碳費,他們就是高碳牌的部分啊。"},{"start":6646.735,"end":6671.843,"text":"如果剛剛講臺電是15、中友是16如果他有通過高碳牌的自主減量計畫那臺電就會從15降到5億然後那個中友差不多是差不多6億左右所以兩個下來因為為什麼會有那個機制就是說他也鼓勵他去做減碳那自主減量計畫如果通過的話他會大幅把那個碳費往下加所以兩位次長"},{"start":6672.783,"end":6702.018,"text":"這些都是本期提醒你們未來收碳費會衍生的一些問題目前中油台電已經在虧損了如果你沒有給他一些補助的話他未來又向人民漲價啦電也漲油也漲那人民會受不了的所以這些提醒你們的問題請您一一的來解決我們也都請他自己本身要好好去做那個檢討OK好謝謝謝謝李議員精確又精彩的質詢來次長請回座下位質詢請陳庭文委員"},{"start":6707.574,"end":6707.594,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6725.704,"end":6740.897,"text":"聶市長我想請教一下就是說我們現在傳統產業在這個區塊他要怎麼去因應我們整個未來碳費徵收所造成的營運成本增加"},{"start":6743.138,"end":6760.307,"text":"其實現在如果就這樣應該是500個場所、270幾家如果就台南地區的話應該是其每有幾個大的場會受到影響大部分的中小企業應該就不太會受到影響"},{"start":6761.638,"end":6767.887,"text":"目前目前我們是依照年排放量達2.5萬噸 61家我們依照的標準因為依這個標準是明年我們1月1號就要開始了嘛"},{"start":6777.159,"end":6802.36,"text":"對,我二就115年才課徵,114開始申報當然當然,就是115年是依照114年整個碳排放量的一個統整數字然後115年再去做課徵嘛所以我們講還是要從114年1月開始開始開始來處理,對不對所以呢在這樣的狀況之下,我們也會隨時去做調整嘛"},{"start":6803.311,"end":6828.389,"text":"對不對,現在是2.5萬,有可能也會再往下,是不是?我們請,順便請次長。我們的那個施次長。是不是?委員好,我們的溫室氣體要申報盤查的對象,我們確實有規劃往下,但是要納到碳費收費可能不會那麼快。不會那麼快。對,不會那麼快。"},{"start":6828.789,"end":6847.263,"text":"重點是說我們要怎麼協助他趕快去因應趕快去轉型我們現在先告訴大家先預知就是希望他未來不要進入到這所謂的一個門檻當中對不對我們當然不希望他們去課徵到這個碳費啊"},{"start":6849.504,"end":6873.278,"text":"這才是我們要達到2050這個完全減碳這樣一個重要的關鍵嘛但是如果是這樣子的前提之下我們要怎麼協助這些中小企業好以2.5萬這樣的一個標準就有臺南有61家好61家那有可能造成衝擊"},{"start":6875.66,"end":6904.771,"text":"那造成衝擊．我們怎麼協助他．那個聯司長各位報告我們其實針對目前已經是達到那個我們現在法定的那個收費的那個門檻二的我們在14年會有一個專案計畫整體針對製造業這500多家500多家270家500個場所我們會全部來協助第一個一定要協助他提到提到自主減量計畫因為你有提自主減量計畫你才可以享受因為這個是一個最大的一個誘因第二個"},{"start":6905.392,"end":6906.596,"text":"我們會針對這500多家我們會來協助他"},{"start":6910.555,"end":6920.877,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":6940.2,"end":6941.801,"text":"我們是用產創平台那個計畫。對,產創平台沒有編入我們正式預算嗎?"},{"start":6949.622,"end":6975.436,"text":"因為我們產創平台是一個大鋪合有二、三十億的經費在那邊那我們是會把他說你有這樣的需求我們會來誘導他來申請這樣的一個計畫用產創平台的這樣的一個預算這是基金還是專案預算那個專案預算對嘛專案預算嘛產創平台的專案預算那明年編多少明年我們多少錢"},{"start":6976.562,"end":6991.538,"text":"預計在這個區塊還是沒有任何上限?有申請上限。對啊,那申請上限多少?我們醫後條例是如果是減碳的話一般是到最高是4千萬。"},{"start":6992.639,"end":7005.462,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、"},{"start":7016.104,"end":7035.899,"text":"三千萬、五百萬,幾萬我都不知道,你協助什麼人?你協助了誰?我們把名單整理一下再給人參考。你協助了誰?然後成效多少?請把這個資料報給我們。那你現在要怎麼去協助臺南這61家?"},{"start":7038.112,"end":7049.841,"text":"因為第一階段他們就達到了就有可能就是如果沒有做自主減量的時候有可能他們就會達到這樣的一個碳排量那可能115年就會被課到"},{"start":7051.098,"end":7055.922,"text":"是的,我們明年開始要協助這61家都提出自主減量計畫。你怎麼協助我要這個報告?你怎麼協助這61家你要去盤點呢?我們會有一個範本,然後每一家廠商進去。這是重點,市長,我要講的就是這樣子。這61家請問,有誰能夠得到你的資訊?如果沒有這樣子要求你們,你們可能"},{"start":7077.341,"end":7089.434,"text":"沒有沒有沒有,我們那個清單都有,我們在環境部的清單都有,我們一定每一家都會進去。我知道,市長我知道清單你們有,我要的是你們可以直接跟他們對接,把你們的資料直接對接,61家直接對接。"},{"start":7093.939,"end":7120.913,"text":"會,我要這些資訊是不是有真正達到他們的手裡然後去做一些技術的協助然後成效如何,我要這些資料好,那個自主減量計畫我們每一家一定要催出來催出來之後我們還會請專家幫他看過看完之後才送到環境部市長不是催,是你應該跟他講我可以提供技術"},{"start":7122.278,"end":7138.541,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7138.848,"end":7158.217,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7158.643,"end":7161.664,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施。．"},{"start":7178.772,"end":7203.054,"text":"那麼我們才有機會再進入到第二階對對對對因為這個部分很明顯嘛他就很清楚一定會對於這個這個碳費的徵收如果沒有去協助他們絕對會轉嫁在一些所謂衝擊中小企業廠商的一個身上然後呢如果在逐年降低的時候"},{"start":7203.755,"end":7227.691,"text":"因為環境部是有這樣的一個思考方向嘛他們要逐年降低嘛才能去達到2050的標準嘛那逐年降低那是不是代表我們第一屆兩萬五這個部分如果沒有處理好你下面要怎麼去繼續這個我們一定要協助廠商一定要處理好所以這個部分我要控管這樣的一個所謂的"},{"start":7228.391,"end":7231.492,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．"},{"start":7248.74,"end":7277.647,"text":"我講的就是臺南市有61家這六十一間你如果做得好誰我相信五百幾間你一定做得好誰所以臺南61家希望隨時把進度給我們你怎麼輔導怎麼讓他們能夠進入到所謂自主減量的部分好 謝謝好 謝謝陳理委委員來 次長請回座我們在鄭正前委員執行結束之後我們休息五分鐘下一位執行請鄭天才委員"},{"start":7291.307,"end":7302.025,"text":"主席、各位委員兩位次長請兩位次長兩位次長好委員好"},{"start":7306.204,"end":7332.839,"text":"氣候變遷因應法第28條第一項規定中央主管機關為達成國家溫室氣體長期減量目標及各期階段管制目標得分階段對下一排放溫室氣體之排放鹽徵收碳費第一款直接排放鹽第二款間接排放鹽"},{"start":7334.225,"end":7355.723,"text":"請問一下這個我們環境部這一次徵收的部分是直接排放員有沒有包含間接排放員還是都有?都有都有就是他我們針對他的這個直接排放跟間接排放都會收就是如果是這個281個廠281個公司"},{"start":7360.267,"end":7388.047,"text":"看這個徵收的費率你們也定了也做了審議了是按照這個你們的估算每年預計將有60億元的碳費收入這個是預計60億其實不多了其實不多這個如果我們看這個全球主要碳排放交易的價格"},{"start":7389.938,"end":7400.858,"text":"這個七四圖如果從2008年到2023年的2月如果我們看這個七四圖我們大概在哪個價位?"},{"start":7403.186,"end":7403.926,"text":"按照這個表"},{"start":7433.908,"end":7462.06,"text":"當這個燃燒化石燃料是氣候變遷化的主要氣動因素占所有二氧化碳排放量的89%和所有溫室氣體排放量的68%所以這個部分是一個參考的一個很重要的一個資料那我們看這個你的報告裡面環境部的報告"},{"start":7463.227,"end":7480.452,"text":"特別提到．日本及韓國的平均化石燃料稅．含製造業在內的所有部門平均．分別為美工盾、二氧化碳．當量新台幣88及962元．"},{"start":7484.161,"end":7504.256,"text":"我國平均化石燃料稅如採這個OECD的定義進行計算．為每公噸二氧化碳當量的331元．以顯著低於日本及韓國．所以這個基本上如果我們從這樣的一個．環境部經過審議這個會議．然後所徵收的這個一年．"},{"start":7514.42,"end":7535.496,"text":"六十億其實真的不多了我們已經比日本、韓國慢了對不對然後又比歐盟更晚,晚多少年?歐盟是2005年開始有總量管制跟交易現在已經2024然後我們要徵收是什麼時候?"},{"start":7538.611,"end":7563.864,"text":"我們明年的排放量開始收費後年開始收費對,後年才收了所以又慢了兩年了所以這個部分這個未來這個整個在審議的過程真的是不高重點是說在後面7月變遷印法第33條訂了這個碳費"},{"start":7568.831,"end":7589.417,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長就:「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務。"},{"start":7599.752,"end":7626.398,"text":"那這個錢到底應該要發給誰?就算是給了縣市,縣市要給誰?所以這個部分,這個環境部啊,非常非常的重要,必須要去討回因應,不然的話又成為一個一個,是不是真正達到了這個,"},{"start":7629.452,"end":7655.352,"text":"氣候變遷因應法當初增加這些條文的目的這個很重要所以這個部分我們看2020年森林貢獻的溫室氣體移除量為2190.5公噸二氧化碳當量也可抵減全國碳排放量的7.6%"},{"start":7658.986,"end":7684.248,"text":"這個是根據台灣2022年發布的國家溫室氣體排放清澈的報告不是我自己寫的這個是這個報告所提出來的所以這個部分就是環境部啊因為你訂的不是那麼明確"},{"start":7685.762,"end":7705.58,"text":"怎麼樣再去給地方政府的時候或是你自己要留存的部分要怎麼去運用實際上應該要發給的部分你們現在有一個方向嗎?跟委員報告因為剛剛委員有把那個氣候法第33條的這個13款"},{"start":7707.93,"end":7712.215,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境"},{"start":7727.031,"end":7739.521,"text":"第二就是有一些調試的措施或調試工作我們也中央跟地方一起來做那再來就是公正轉型那如果說是以碳會來講因為比如說碳會我們現在有一些關於自然碳會的減量方法論在申請審議當中那如果一旦通過其實碳會我們也會鼓勵企業有方法論可以來申請"},{"start":7750.93,"end":7752.731,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":7773.004,"end":7789.603,"text":"那增加碳會的功能其實就是減量的活動的一項那因此呢如果這個有一些增加碳會功能比如說先是政府或者是我們中央的這個相關部會有在增加碳會的這個工作上面我們碳費也應該是往那個方向來補助好,非常謝謝"},{"start":7794.371,"end":7806.622,"text":"上次我也提過這個資料2001年英國的生態經濟協博士皮爾斯說一個岩石嶺的碳匯價值一公頃2000美金這是2001年現在已經2024了到後年是2026了所以這個部分"},{"start":7818.274,"end":7837.855,"text":"就回歸到法律好了,回歸到法律。一、第一條,最快,第一條,期貨變成依法,第一條。第三條,原住民族穩定轉型。謝謝。第二條,原住民族權益,法律隊有規定,合作依法行政。第二條,"},{"start":7840.672,"end":7851.743,"text":"嚴祝民主共同推動這個自然碳會。好,謝謝。所以這個部分,請環境部務必依法行政。好,謝謝。來,謝謝鄭天才委員。來,次長請回座。消費質詢請鄭正前委員。"},{"start":7868.722,"end":7874.302,"text":"呃,謝謝主席,我想請經濟部連次長還有環境部的施次長。經濟部連次長、環境部施次長。"},{"start":7881.131,"end":7897.963,"text":"非常感謝主席召委今天安排了我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊的影響評估然後一個非常重要而且非常新而且正在持續發展當中然後還沒有完善的一個主題那我國碳邊境調整機制CBAM推動的一個規劃"},{"start":7899.184,"end":7926.075,"text":"那我覺得這個我想就是跟碳有關這個問題它不只是一個環境政策的問題它也是一個貿易政策所以說其實我剛剛有聽到施次長這邊有特別提到說我們CBAM臺灣現在在推CBAM那歐盟2026要開始實施對不對那他們的CBAM憑證他開始2026就要具體去用了那我們明年要開始徵收那個碳費"},{"start":7927.355,"end":7948.126,"text":"那碳費這個部分的時候,台灣的碳費這部分是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分?你剛剛提到說可以,對不對?那可是你提到一個就是,因為整個碳費徵收的狀態,它有很多複雜的程序要做,很多方法論的問題,然後你提到說我們明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去,去溝通一下查驗機制的問題,是不是?"},{"start":7949.307,"end":7969.591,"text":"對,因為其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道,那明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會常駐在歐盟,那溝通可能會比較直接,或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的在執行……所以我們,你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免,還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制,可能會有折扣?"},{"start":7970.091,"end":7979.861,"text":"因為歐盟他現在對於出口國的碳費要怎麼出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣他的法律規則還沒出來還沒出來嘛 對不對所以還在溝通當中因為我在想說我們一噸收300塊標準收300塊可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4000塊"},{"start":7989.531,"end":8006.431,"text":"所以我覺得當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題那我這邊的時候我先針對就是環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料還有造成五大行業為例"},{"start":8007.472,"end":8028.504,"text":"在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下．碳費會佔行業平均毛利率的15.49%．到43.04%．非常非常的高．所以碳費對於整個產業的影響．肯定是非常大的．然後你這邊提到說．在三種情況之下的時候．它會盪到1.14%．到2.95%．第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫．達到目標．但這部分是經濟部這邊在做．對不對"},{"start":8034.907,"end":8063.706,"text":"然後第二個部分就是說提到說是用那個優惠費率用B的方案來做一公噸一百塊 對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通"},{"start":8064.847,"end":8073.668,"text":"因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分"},{"start":8075.049,"end":8094.743,"text":"跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的申報"},{"start":8097.945,"end":8104.75,"text":"二零二六年正式繳那二零二六年正式繳的這個初期因為歐盟境內自己還有免費配額所以一開始呢他會扣掉他現在百分之百的這個免費配額的這個配額他才會要求進口產品"},{"start":8113.337,"end":8115.258,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":8142.317,"end":8158.891,"text":"三百八十幾家公司五百多個廠當中有很多跟新竹都有關那比方說我這邊有聽到臺電臺積電他們的法說會特別提到這三年漲了四次的電漲了四次電的時候呢相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候他們的電費漲了1.92倍"},{"start":8166.038,"end":8188.389,"text":"一點九二倍 非常非常的高那我看到說他們在提出這個部分的時候呢那台電出來做了一些捍衛的動作他就提到說台灣的電價其實並不高相較於其他國家都相對高可是台積電的說法是說在他們在對外的這幾個廠當中的時候台灣現在的電價是最高的了"},{"start":8188.729,"end":8189.029,"text":"臺積電去年的用電量是247.75億度"},{"start":8210.973,"end":8213.754,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":8234.161,"end":8253.9,"text":"零點四九四嘛OK齁那算起來的時候呢整個台積電的時候呢就會有一百一千兩百三十八萬噸的洩漏度的排放量如果一噸三百塊來說的時候就是超過37億元的一個成本齁那我要講這個部分的時候呢是我想特別去問一下次長齁就是"},{"start":8255.68,"end":8281.931,"text":"我們現在齁所有的電廠齁因為電力法裡面有要求就是電廠受電的時候電廠要有電力排放係數要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求嘛我想知道現在所有台灣的電廠的時候他們的電力排放的係數是多少每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎因為我們現在法令規範只有規範台電其他其他廠家沒有規範"},{"start":8283.038,"end":8303.274,"text":"只有規範臺電是不是?因為臺電佔的總量太大了所以只有規範因為我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合因為電業法裡面是公用售電費都要符合可是我們目前只限制臺電是這個意思嗎?因為它叫做公用售電業那其他的電廠他們都不算公用售電?不是"},{"start":8305.395,"end":8326.329,"text":"所以說我們目前以這個基準來說的時候就是約束台電嘛那我要特別講到一個狀態就是說以我們現在就是台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候然後就表示說除了水電之外還有技術人才等等的問題我要講的情況是電的成本不斷的提高"},{"start":8326.989,"end":8352.877,"text":"那當我們現在碳費再加進來雖然說我們有直接排放量跟那個進階排放量只有三成的部分的時候可能到時候會併在臺電這個成本裡頭可是它對於企業成本肯定也是一個必須要去考量的所以我希望說就是經濟部這邊的時候因為你這邊你的報告第5頁提到說針對臺灣在此行西奔的部分你希望說可以先啟動對高碳洩漏風險進口產品實施類似"},{"start":8356.218,"end":8380.761,"text":"碳關稅的評估作業在符合WTO的規範和我國產業前提之下是一種有別於歐盟的CBAM的機制那這個部分經濟部這邊有沒有具體的一個想法有別於歐盟的CBAM的一個機制因為我們目前的想法是說本來那個因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內那如果是進口可以一起扣的話那等於是在競爭競爭力這一部分"},{"start":8381.401,"end":8407.674,"text":"我們是相對是站在一個比較公平的一個角度啦所以說這一部分是不是說要請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到OK喔我在想說因為碳費這邊是一個持續進行中的一個部分我希望經濟部還有環境部這一邊包括財政部這一邊所以有任何新的部分確實都要跟本委員做一個報告謝謝謝謝政經政政前委員來次長請回座"},{"start":8410.388,"end":8411.373,"text":"不過我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8717.492,"end":8718.318,"text":"兩位次長都還沒到"},{"start":8764.798,"end":8777.671,"text":"來,那我們繼續開會。那下一位請我們召委齁,邱志偉主席來發言。好,謝謝主席,有請兩位次長,連次長。來,請兩位次長。"},{"start":8784.824,"end":8807.479,"text":"我們先看這邊資料在路透社有一位針對九位分析師的報告就是說他2027他們平均碳價的預測遠高於現在2027大概就是兩年之後到111歐元大概台幣將近4000塊那目前美頓大概預估是63歐元左右大概台幣2100"},{"start":8809.468,"end":8823.058,"text":"如果按照這個趨勢我們所有產品要輸入這個歐盟如果即便我們有科生碳費但是你還要跟CBAM做接軌對不對那接軌你的價差不能太大"},{"start":8824.434,"end":8846.208,"text":"我在阿波波會發給你評證所以這部分你們要了解這個趨勢這個碳費對企業造成的壓力你們看中鋼就好了中鋼在高雄對不對那中鋼它的排放量將2000萬噸如果你現在用300塊的基準來看那它的碳費一年如果從2025開始這個開增有58億那鋼鐵業又不好"},{"start":8853.322,"end":8867.049,"text":"中間的稅後餘裕．年度稅後餘裕才不到17億稅後淨利．那相當於他淨利的3倍．超過3倍．這貪費制度對高碳牌的產業．會造成嚴重的財務衝擊．"},{"start":8868.939,"end":8895.999,"text":"那這是上游那中下游怎麼辦?它一定會轉嫁成成本嘛它轉嫁成本你上游的大型的企業可以透過成本增加來轉嫁給中小這個下游、中下游的企業而中下游企業又是中小型居多它那個成本的轉嫁非常不容易比如說會看到工具機、扣件、螺絲中小型它要怎麼轉嫁?"},{"start":8897.359,"end":8906.727,"text":"這變成他必須要提高這個產品價格,變成他競爭力就不足。所以建保文啊,我覺得經濟部應該要有一個完整評估這碳費徵收之後對各個產業的相關的財務的衝擊。"},{"start":8911.857,"end":8931.906,"text":"我覺得這部分你們沒有做,市長你們有做嗎?根本沒有,這部分我們有做很詳細的分析,所以剛剛為什麼像剛才委員講的鋼鐵它本身譬如說如果是最後談到所以才有那個那個優惠匯率嘛,優惠匯率,如果優惠匯率下來其實它的衝擊就沒有像之前的那麼大,就省一次百分之2.8,那當然"},{"start":8933.747,"end":8951.304,"text":"大的一定是會轉嫁給小的所以說我們會做兩層一個是大的這邊像剛才講的會自主減量計畫我們一定要請他來提提的時候我們會協助他達成那個減量目標就等於衝擊就降小那他轉下去的那個幅度就不會那麼大"},{"start":8951.764,"end":8967.263,"text":"從他姓友都大跟小而已,大中小,那這個如果這種各種狀況都會造成說這個所謂的中小型企業的這個成本提高,成本提高你們有沒有相關的差異化的補貼的方案?"},{"start":8968.451,"end":8992.382,"text":"我們沒有所謂的差異化是針對下游這些中小企業我們有專案的專案是剛才我特別提到是像南部這些因為有雙重的壓力像CBAM或是國內這樣的所以會針對有一些產業比較特殊型的產業我們有特別去做那其他的就是比較一般性的專案做不到這個不只影響到上游、中下游整個產業供應鏈它的這個都會帶動連動的這個漲價"},{"start":8996.834,"end":9002.516,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":9022.942,"end":9042.064,"text":"差距太大我們怎麼辦?因為其實歐盟要實施CBAM的這個目的就是要去平衡他自己境內的生產者因為他的總量管制跟交易的成本那因為他們從2005年已經實施很久了所以他們的成本包括他們的發電業全部都是要拍賣"},{"start":9043.165,"end":9066.537,"text":"所以他們所面臨的碳價會希望進口商也要承擔就跟我們現在國內產業呼籲是一樣所以我們會對我們如果這個差額很大我們要補但是一開始因為歐盟的製造業也像我們一樣有免費配額所以他會先扣掉他的免費配額的程度才所以那種初期對我們中小型的這些扣借影響不大"},{"start":9067.938,"end":9082.305,"text":"可能初期因為它那個降免費配額的那個比例一開始先從降零點降這個二點幾一兩趴所以大概可能初期前三四年影響還不會那麼高另外這個經濟部有個乾坤大挪移的計畫乾坤大挪移這個有關碳洩漏什麼叫碳洩漏?市長"},{"start":9095,"end":9123.175,"text":"我這樣講啦不管產業是不是外移他現在已經是在境內了我們在台灣的我們也一定要協助他去做減碳啦沒有 乾坤大奴也就是說我們面對碳費挑戰比較大的這些企業我們外移到比較有競爭力的這個國家什麼叫有競爭力有碳費競爭力的國家啦並透過以小代大然後符合他的部長的境外關內的政策這個部分是不是有"},{"start":9126.154,"end":9149.834,"text":"因為他如果是移到剛才委員講的他碳費比較有利的地方他如果今天要做出口他不會是只有做到那個他如果要做出口一小代大就整個三峽要刷那裡然後又進外關內高碳排的這些產業要挪到國外碳費比較低的地方國家去"},{"start":9150.675,"end":9156.785,"text":"那就符合碳洩漏啦,那市長你的想法呢?對經濟部的立場?這經濟部的立場喔?環境部的立場如何?"},{"start":9161.277,"end":9186.517,"text":"這個跟委員報告是說其實像這個所謂我們現在有高碳洩漏風險的產業鋼鐵石化它要外移的機率可能沒有那麼高因為整個的這個設廠還有整個的這個生產成本的考慮碳費應該只是其中一項所以我相信這個都是一些我們可是乾坤大農也就是要把這些高碳牌的這個產業移到國外去啊不是嗎那個市長"},{"start":9188.639,"end":9212.736,"text":"我想這個也是我們這個產業會希望做過台版的CBAM。你們兩個部位環境部跟經濟部在立場上面是基本上對立的喔。我認為啊,你們不會贊成這個經濟部的這個乾坤大挪移計畫。你會贊成嗎?市長。沒有,我們是希望就是競速研擬台版的CBAM,讓這個高碳洩漏風險不要出去啦,不要覺得說要移動。"},{"start":9213.736,"end":9234.088,"text":"而且其實東南亞很多國家未來要實施探架。海版CBAM是你們在制定嗎?海版CBAM我們跟經濟部、財政部一直要跨部會討論。那多久會出來?明年可能會先從要看怎麼申報開始。就像歐盟現在在申報。那海版CBAM計畫就沒有所謂的乾坤大挪移了啊?就不需要乾坤大挪移不是嗎?"},{"start":9235.511,"end":9260.898,"text":"這個是要不要把產業帶到那個比較有利的一個海外去?我想請問一下,乾坤大農業真的是有這個計畫嗎?是有這個計畫還是構想?有這個計畫還是沒有?在研歷中?在研歷中?具體做法還不知道?還在討論所以已經公布這個推動乾坤大農業計畫"},{"start":9262.551,"end":9262.751,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員。"},{"start":9298.328,"end":9314.639,"text":"好,消費執行請蔡議員。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請經濟部次長還有能文局由署長。署長。委員好。次長。"},{"start":9315.762,"end":9328.889,"text":"那今天事實上整個媒體事實上大家聚焦在這個臺原公司齁那在臺南以及嘉義他們的這個綠能涉及到的這個弊案那"},{"start":9330.051,"end":9354.253,"text":"就我那也是在選區嘛一組的其中有一場那我想要請教的就是說這樣的一個弊案發生了這樣的狀況那現在當然正在調查中那我想請教一下經濟部呢你們對於當時這個案件這個發生那你們的掌握的程度是怎樣我可不可以請那個因為那時候我比較"},{"start":9355.114,"end":9378.511,"text":"那報告委員那這個案子我們當時我們掌握到之後我們有做一些調查之後我們把相關的資料也都直接主動移送到他調查是在什麼時候在112年的時候112年對在去年的時候去年你們開始調查那就台研公司呢台研公司他們的內部調查對那個內部調查之後他們也主動"},{"start":9379.349,"end":9397.274,"text":"提送相關．把相關資料提送到．當時臺原公司董事長是．陳董事長陳啟玉陳董事長陳啟玉的時候那之後調查的是在吳榮輝董事長的時代嗎?欸不是那時候他吳董事長已經離開了吳董事長離開已經離開對那你們有做內部調查對是對那內部調查後你們這個調查資料有送給檢調嗎?"},{"start":9402.043,"end":9419.429,"text":"對,台驗公司有把相關的資料送到檢調單位。送給檢調單位。對,是。好,那我們當然這一件我覺得就是勿枉勿重啦。是。那該偵辦就應該要好好偵辦。是。那可是我想要再,好,那你可以。我們會隨便配合,對,是。好,我接下來要請教這個次長跟署長。"},{"start":9420.609,"end":9447.926,"text":"所以事實上這樣相關的這個綠能的這個產業那尤其是發生在像我們這邊的漁電共生那我一直有在救教經濟部的就是說如果這樣的綠能產業發生弊案的時候它的後端處理是怎樣這個弊案有可能是說像這一件可能涉及到工程弊案那我也有在在意的漁電共生如果發生甲氧魚"},{"start":9448.871,"end":9455.278,"text":"沒有養魚,但是他一樣在發電,他的處罰機制到底是什麼?"},{"start":9456.055,"end":9477.966,"text":"好不好,還是這位署長來說?是,跟委員報告,那如果是漁電共生,它當然是養殖為主,然後綠能加值。所以,有關於漁業養殖這件事情,農業部,然後還有地方的漁業主管局會去查核。對,會查核我知道,我是說,如果,署長,署長我跟你說啦,如果真的是養殖為主,那發電為輔齁,我應該在我的選區齁,我早上會聽到很多人說,喔!"},{"start":9481.628,"end":9489.594,"text":"我現在就是要退這裏的綠能公司來退他們的錢我現在的工作就是要退他們錢我好少聽到我幾乎沒有聽到還是說他們都是請外部人、請專家去養魚這個專家都住在遙遠的地方所以我在跑選區的時候都遇不到"},{"start":9501.653,"end":9525.562,"text":"我真的很少聽到所以我要說的就是說像這個是屬於工程弊案啊工程弊案當然是由司法來認定我今天說的發生了很多但是有的其他弊案是他作弊他作弊也許還沒有到達刑事的一個強鑒刑事的強度但是他作弊啊很明顯他的養魚今天沒有農業單位啦市長你有沒有聽過買魚金這個名詞"},{"start":9530.65,"end":9547.954,"text":"你不要聽過阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿"},{"start":9560.424,"end":9576.713,"text":"那這件事怎麼...有沒有罰則啦?有沒有處罰?而且署長我記得我在上個...我上一屆我就跟你建議過了處罰就很簡單啊他的發電不要給他他沒有養育當年度他的發電都不可以拿"},{"start":9578.359,"end":9596.777,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個事情後來有跟農業部有協調過就是如果他沒有養殖適時經過限期改善不改善的話他撤銷農業許可我們就撤銷電業許可就直接撤銷電業許可啊撤銷電業許可那又分為幾個層次啊第一個就是說那個電費的部分勒"},{"start":9597.372,"end":9613.654,"text":"就如果他的電頁執照被撤銷當然整個就沒有了整個我們都沒收嘛所以這個就有一套的管理的機制一定要有養殖事實那沒有電頁許可之後呢那是指把他的整個案場沒收?你怎麼講給我明?直接講給我明?對,那個案場就直接收歸國有?"},{"start":9615.015,"end":9638.804,"text":"還是怎樣啊?就是你們要講清楚這個法則怎樣?這樣才會讓大家去警覺到說我們現在要在這個地方投入魚電共生我們不要用這種投機式的那個明明的說養殖才是一個重點結果看起來沒有人把養殖當作重點我真的沒有遇到說我要在這個魚電共生場好好來養殖沒有啦 真的沒有啦好不好?"},{"start":9642.379,"end":9669.055,"text":"所以我覺得市長這件事我們要要緊啦要要緊其實我們現在在跟農業部也在討論說要是不是因為有像委員講的這樣的一個事情我們現在也在跟農業部在討論說是不是採用一些新的機制避免這樣的一個情況發生這樣子我們現在目前這個機制正在眼裡中市長我相信你也知道站在我的立場我是很鼓勵地方發展綠能"},{"start":9670.115,"end":9698.134,"text":"但是我們覺得說我們一定要先把遊戲規則講清楚。這樣我們在推展綠能的時候才不會被有很多投機的或者是他是用很多不法的手段然後來達到他們有發展他們投入綠能的一個效果。就既然這個地方我們強調養魚為主的漁電共生,這樣我們一開始他的計畫就要好啊。他到底要怎麼跟地方的漁民來做合作還是說他們養魚計畫是怎樣。"},{"start":9700.295,"end":9712.563,"text":"這事情都還沒有講清楚結果大家一窩蜂在投入現在我看起來真的我感覺起來有很多真的沒有在養魚啦"},{"start":9713.719,"end":9713.899,"text":"應該是長7%吧?"},{"start":9738.078,"end":9744.268,"text":"我要查一下,鋼鐵是要漲7%嗎?鋼鐵是...他有調漲到對,他有調漲,只是說他是減半調漲我要再查一下"},{"start":9749.389,"end":9766.603,"text":"我來查一下我直接說啦,事實上我是代為去轉述一些業者的一個心聲因為鋼鐵業這幾年事實上遇到的是包括中國這邊的一些打壓事實上我們這幾年來鋼鐵業的"},{"start":9770.001,"end":9792.588,"text":"成長是不好的他們的這個獲利是差的所以這一次的漲電價事實上對於鋼鐵業是有相當的衝擊但是他們現在應該是沒有被認定是在減半的一個行業別裡面所以我想這部分我們經濟部可能再斟酌一下是不是在於說要調漲電價這個應該是"},{"start":9795.089,"end":9809.774,"text":"為了整個反映台電的一個成本但是對於個別產業別他遇到衝擊的時候是不是我們可以處理考慮的再細膩一些這樣好不好好我們看用什麼方式來協助他們好不好好謝謝蔡議員堅準質詢來次長先回座謝謝下一位質詢請賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":9823.37,"end":9841.916,"text":"好,謝謝召委。請連次長跟施次長。請連次長跟施次長。好,兩位次長好。我先請連次長了。這一次這個碳費的價格,碳定價的價格,那外界有認為說是高於鄰近的幾個國家。連次長怎麼看?"},{"start":9845.465,"end":9869.74,"text":"因為本來我們是在碳會審慮我們是要建立是要跟我們周遭的那個競爭對手主要競爭對手啦對對對那現在這樣下來是如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險因為它有一些優惠的話應該是介於20塊左右是剛好是在日本跟韓國中間但是一般產業確實是比那個日本還高"},{"start":9871.247,"end":9894.589,"text":"所以經濟部還是希望能夠在這個過程中能夠兼顧到產業上的一些狀況因為我們已經極力在爭取了因為後來因為委員會是共識局好 那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種"},{"start":9895.285,"end":9902.973,"text":"然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說"},{"start":9903.7,"end":9906.221,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及"},{"start":9927.493,"end":9951.5,"text":"整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊"},{"start":9952.9,"end":9954.883,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":9969.819,"end":9997.941,"text":"面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個"},{"start":9999.292,"end":10000.367,"text":"呃..."},{"start":10000.971,"end":10008.037,"text":"這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣"},{"start":10030.775,"end":10031.896,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":10062.035,"end":10080.863,"text":"這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。那另外,開徵這樣的碳費的對國營事業的部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?"},{"start":10088.885,"end":10096.734,"text":"因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的"},{"start":10097.659,"end":10118.588,"text":"往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理"},{"start":10127.412,"end":10150.508,"text":"好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些"},{"start":10151.408,"end":10155.99,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":10175.192,"end":10199.414,"text":"獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入．會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?"},{"start":10201.206,"end":10209.327,"text":"因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補"},{"start":10210.545,"end":10232.945,"text":"第二個就是,其實我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較那日本、韓國、新加坡他們收進來的這個碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是會希望優先用在減量那甚至有一些地區他會需要很大的這個調適的資金"},{"start":10234.767,"end":10247.184,"text":"那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作、減量計畫、減量技術"},{"start":10248.547,"end":10268.118,"text":"那還有這個調適啦 那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁 這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候常常一進到後來"},{"start":10269.219,"end":10269.62,"text":"我認為這樣才能夠實質的有效去協助。"},{"start":10288.959,"end":10310.531,"text":"那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善他的"},{"start":10310.951,"end":10334.194,"text":"直接協助他們這個這個減碳的部分我認為才能達到政策的目標不要再用到很偏遠很大水庫的概念上好不好請兩位次長要朝這個方向好嗎?是是,謝謝委員謝謝好,謝謝那位委員非常精準有效率的質詢可以稱為楷模來,下位質詢請劉許廷委員"},{"start":10343.919,"end":10345.621,"text":"好,謝謝主席。經濟部次長有請。請連次長。好。嘿。"},{"start":10356.389,"end":10385.787,"text":"市長吳安今天討論碳費的部分當然大家現在都在討論因為看起來比較具體的是歐盟的CBAM的機制2023年10月開始做申報那預計到2026年開始啟程對不對這個啟程相對明確但恐怕世界各國在施行相關的這個碳邊境的這樣子的一個機制的恐怕也不是只有CBAM一套系統比如說美國好了它就有這個Clean Competition Act這叫做清潔競爭法案它其實就是所謂美國版的CBAM"},{"start":10387.088,"end":10404.102,"text":"那個...這個次長對於這個法案的進步有沒有了解?所以我知道因為我那時候在擔任標準局局長的時候就在貫徹這個案子對但是這個案子現在好像有點稍微偏頂一下你們有沒有我只要問簡單先問啦你們有沒有掌握他的修法期程因為他的國會如果還沒有通過當然就不會執行對可是我要提醒的是他如果執行喔他不像CBAM還有三年緩衝期喔"},{"start":10405.003,"end":10422.698,"text":"他若一執行他本來預估是2020就直接要開始課﹖而且從範圍的比較上來講他也不是只是像歐盟一樣先從比如說水泥啊鋼鐵開始他是連電子零組件跟電動車相關產業他都涵蓋在內所以我希望第一我提醒經濟部對於他這個修法進度要提早掌握好不好這不要"},{"start":10423.518,"end":10447.316,"text":"因為我們現在討論都還是CBAM的範圍但不會只有CBAM這世界各國的相關的進度都要有所掌握這本是第一個提醒喔第二個回到CBAM的這個題目來做探討現在是六大類嘛對不對鋼鐵、水泥、鋁、化肥、氫還有肥料肥料、化肥嘛我剛剛講化肥還有氫跟電力嘛這六大類是CBAM優先要處理的這個項目其中跟我國相關的比較多是哪一種哪幾種類型"},{"start":10448.337,"end":10461.284,"text":"主要是鋼鐵跟它的下游的扣件、金屬製品扣件是後來加進來的。那其他的像鋁、水泥、肥料這些我們都很少見。相對少,跟歐盟直接有貿易相關。應該是鋼鐵、鋼石、鋼纜、螺絲等等相關產業。"},{"start":10466.267,"end":10484.836,"text":"所以他其實你現在其實我們從國內產業的分析你就可以初階段的瞭解哪些產業受到衝擊最大那今天大部分委員都關心就是碳定價的問題也就是碳費怎麼做銜接這當然很重要但本期要關心的是碳盤查的進度我為什麼要講碳盤查的進度呢是因為如果你沒有辦法自己算出來叫做所謂的"},{"start":10486.477,"end":10505.891,"text":"這個實際含碳排放量嘛你用CBAM的標準你自己算得出來就用實際的量去算對不對你如果算不出來的時候你什麼都沒教的時候歐盟的CBAM機制就叫設定含碳排放量嘛也就是歐盟境內的最高排放標準那個就會造成很大的衝擊啊所以我認為在討論定價跟銜接之前非常重要的其實是碳盤查的進度啦"},{"start":10506.511,"end":10526.16,"text":"我們如果沒有辦法推動每一個企業都去做到實際排放量的計算你好歹也要有一個國家平均排放量對不對所以政府在裡面是有角色的好我現在要問了這個我們剛剛講鋼鐵相關的產業總共幾家產業受到衝擊大型企業跟中小企業佔比分別是多少請問經濟部有沒有數字這個我們有去其實大型企業就是剛才講的"},{"start":10526.8,"end":10534.026,"text":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環"},{"start":10544.895,"end":10562.686,"text":"每一家都跑過了?對那我沒有在報告裡看到碳盤查的進度有有有,碳盤查我們應該是不是每一家都希望我們進去做碳盤查應該是做到將近七成左右你現在這幾家對,你講七成的進度我希望你會後提供一個完整的報告就是說針對第一波受到高衝擊的產業你的碳盤查的進度是什麼?"},{"start":10564.787,"end":10592.268,"text":"我們國家未來是要有效的輔導這些受到衝擊的產業去讓它完成自己可以算出實際含碳排量還是說我國家要因為實際上操作有些困難因為它有技術門檻等等我至少要有一個國家平均含碳量的這樣一個計算而且我們每一家我們貿易署也都找美國的那個法律專家欸!歐盟的法律專家針對這個怎麼去弄有沒有時間就碳盤查的部分有沒有一個計算完成的時間表"},{"start":10594.946,"end":10621.026,"text":"欸我們教過之後他就已經是完成了嗎?好那你就把會後提供詳細的報告因為2026年起徵之前嘛你現在甚至都要申報了這個我們把資料送給委員好不好好不好這個碳盤查輔導的速度一定要加快我們才能夠算出真正的經濟衝擊嘛除了技術科技之外我們也有協助其他行業的來做碳盤查這個我希望在這樣的報告裡其實要看到碳盤查的進度啦請會後提供可以嗎?好謝謝市長辛苦了"},{"start":10621.946,"end":10649.058,"text":"來,謝謝牛許迪委員,非常有效率的質詢來,次長請回座來,下一位質詢請王宏威委員好,謝謝主席,我請我們連次長第一部連次長還有我們中郵董事長中郵李董事長台電今天是副總是吧?台電副總"},{"start":10656.759,"end":10657.222,"text":"委員好好"},{"start":10660.336,"end":10688.883,"text":"好 市長就是有關於碳費的徵收其實產業界其實都非常的擔心以現在來講的話當然我們是先集中500家就是比較大型的產業但是接下來難免這個產業的那個家屬會越來越多那我們的環境部長說他說啊這個碳費的收費標準其實對產業來講就像針扎一下"},{"start":10692.564,"end":10710.591,"text":"但是我們的前經濟部長王美花部長說我們臺灣的碳費現在是高於日本、韓國、中國那麼對於鋼鐵石化水泥業的壓力非常非常的大那所以請問一下次長我們到底應該聽環境部長說的話呢還是我們前經濟部長說的話呢"},{"start":10715.093,"end":10738.133,"text":"應該是中間啦,我要解釋一下啦,因為確實如果是300塊,不是不是機靈,應該如果是300塊,就是像王前部長講壓力大如山啦,但是後來這中間我們跟環境部在討論過程中有做一些配套措施,這些措施一做下去應該也不是說稍微扎一下不痛啦,也是會痛啦。"},{"start":10740.073,"end":10760.578,"text":"對,並不是像環境部長講的這麼輕鬆啦那我為什麼請中油跟台電的董事長跟副總那剛才我也注意到李玉玲委員也有特別問到說中油大概是16億以目前的碳費如果那個配套做價做6億左右好,先等一下以現在來講16億,台電15億5億多"},{"start":10765.959,"end":10788.168,"text":"而且呢,經濟部並沒有要給他補貼嘛,對不對?要你想辦法去減排。所以呢,在上個禮拜啊,院委同樣質詢在我們衛環,我們的這個經濟部長也跟我講說,台電如果很努力減碳,就可以達到只要交5億的碳費。好,副總。"},{"start":10789.088,"end":10807.215,"text":"可能嗎?來,副總,可能嗎?委員好,臺電本身的減碳牌的自主性減碳,我們現在都已經在啟動。不是,可不可能,像他講的,你2026就要繳勒?是,這個是自主性減量,臺電在這個區塊裡面,"},{"start":10814.417,"end":10842.451,"text":"應該是可以做到這個從15億降到5億。我不曉得你們如何能做到。其實我們的立法院的預算中心報告就已經特別提到,其實很多人都提到,因為我們現在的發電燃料是仰賴進口,然後火力的這個發電的占比高達八成之多。我們怎麼如何減碳,如何自主,然後達到5億。"},{"start":10844.451,"end":10861.159,"text":"那個跟委員做個說明我時間很短是是是我們從效率效率提高我跟你們報告這個減碳跟那個燃料無關他這次台電客是他自身用用電的這一塊所以跟那個燃料那個無關所以他自身的用電這一塊"},{"start":10862.219,"end":10864.822,"text":"請問一下以現在的碳費標準是不是可以確保不會影響我們的油電價格?能不能?來次長講"},{"start":10884.625,"end":10911.565,"text":"就目前如果一個是五億、一個是六億應該是不應該影響可是現在不是五億、六億阿你們還很努力阿如果以十五億、十六億來講如果以十五億、十六億會不會影響油電價格我認為不應該轉價不應該,你可不可以承諾因為經濟部因為環境部首長說不要問我阿要問那個經濟部阿可以承諾嗎如果減碳是五億、六億那這個東西本來就他們要自己吸收不過以現在來講你可不可以承諾嗎一句話"},{"start":10913.322,"end":10928.07,"text":"我認為不應該轉嫁你認為不應該轉嫁但是你不敢承諾這也許是今天經濟部長都不來的一個主要原因不要現在講那麼好我們最擔心的會轉嫁給我們的消費者這個我們會把關我們會把關好 謝謝王宏偉委員來次長請回座消費諮詢請洪孟開委員"},{"start":10943.14,"end":10966.501,"text":"主席,謝謝。請連次長跟施次長。請連次長、施次長。好,連次長,我先請教。有沒有看到這兩天有個新聞,因為我們這個核三廠二號機的一個稅休,而新聞就有講說全台灣有98%火力發電?有看到嗎?有,我有看到,我有看到這個。"},{"start":10968.188,"end":10987.744,"text":"火力發電當時蔡英文政府講說要二十、三十、五十非核家園二十的再生能源、三十的燃煤、五十的燃氣那就沒有想到沒有告訴我們的是有可能有再生能源跳票以外還有有一些時間是根本再生能源想發還發不出來,是不是這樣?我現在想請教一下"},{"start":10993.237,"end":11012.348,"text":"太陽能現在占比超過百分之十幾的一個狀態晚上夜間沒有辦法發電那是不是未來有專家就想是說每天可能有超過十個小時只要是夜間的話會有百分之九十的火力發電是不是真的?因為那個河山廠現在正在稅休喔是啊那你河山廠不是之後要停業了嗎?那也差不多"},{"start":11013.589,"end":11039.611,"text":"二號機現在還在稅休維修工期是41天維修工期41天但你不是預計明年要除役嗎那我現在只是問的是說明年的非核家園當時跟我們講很好聽20、30、50所以我們認為是百分之八十八成的火力發電但現在原來你的再生能源有一半的時間24小時裡面有12個小時只要沒有太陽的話你也發不了電如果說風力也弱水力也弱的話"},{"start":11040.211,"end":11060.096,"text":"所以你可能會有98%的火力發電,是不是?報告委員,確實再生能源、光電跟風電有間歇性問題所以這部分我們會透過一些儲能的方法來解決這樣的間歇性問題儲能的方法你還是沒有不符合比例啊所以我只想問,有專家講說,我要次長親口告訴我一下"},{"start":11060.876,"end":11087.843,"text":"有專家講未來非核加原子要核電廠除役之後是有可能9成以上每天超過10小時9成以上是火力發電是不是我覺得不應該會有9成以上那不然多少因為現在你的數字推估是多少8成以上是確定了嗎因為是30的燃煤50的燃氣嘛8成會有但是因為在燃煤我們現在已經超過15%、16%左右了所以不會有那晚間呢你的15%、16%裡面太陽能光電發佔多少"},{"start":11090.564,"end":11105.474,"text":"公文報告太陽光電白天發電我們透過儲能那個儲在電池裡面到時候再調度出來這個不能算說是那個火力發電的量也是試算那個再生能源的量"},{"start":11105.794,"end":11105.874,"text":"我這樣報告?"},{"start":11128.104,"end":11147.074,"text":"還有我們的水利抽蓄的齁水利抽蓄此時此刻佔多少水利?水利發電那我現在是講說此時此刻水利佔多少水利發電?一趴本席剛剛已經上來的時候查了水利目前此時此刻一趴風力發電此時此刻兩趴所以你將水利影響風力只是自我打臉好 來沒關係 次長"},{"start":11150.236,"end":11155.524,"text":"有要補充資料我歡迎會後給我補充但是本席要看到的是真實的數據來那個施市長"},{"start":11161.445,"end":11182.654,"text":"我們現在推動這個碳費的部分但有沒有看到現在民間已經開始有ESG的近鄰永續管理師課程但是很多人講說這個課程可能沒有取得國內外認證讓民眾白花錢甚至會有碳費的這個空調系統購入要數百萬的替換但問環境部才知沒這個事那代表是說"},{"start":11183.154,"end":11183.974,"text":"那有沒有注意到這個亂象?那這個亂象要怎麼解決呢?"},{"start":11211.488,"end":11226.358,"text":"一方面環境部是管理單位一方面經濟部可能有相關因為經濟部為什麼會跟你比較相關是因為很多企業可能會不管是病急亂投醫不管是他想要去了解想要ESG的這個永續師但沒想到他根本沒有認證"},{"start":11227.637,"end":11244.718,"text":"那這是哪一個單位要管理?我們未來會成立一個綠領人才的平台那把各部會其實比較官方的這個訓練環境部主導?對對對什麼時候會成立?我們現在還在跟各部會要做收集資料應該明年年初會有一個平台的雛型出來"},{"start":11245.259,"end":11271.94,"text":"好,本席希望這一個規劃也給本席一份會後資料因為這一個亂象其實已經從5月到現在但是感覺起來是因為碳費的一個收徵而更加加劇所以希望主管單位能夠盡速好不好,謝謝好,謝謝馮孟海委員來,次長請回座,下一位約仁芝,約仁芝,約仁芝,約仁芝不在下一位資訊請伍麗華委員"},{"start":11284.556,"end":11287.56,"text":"謝謝主席,有請經濟部和環境部兩位次長"},{"start":11296.557,"end":11325.425,"text":"兩位次長好我們都看到新聞了那碳有價的時代來臨了我非常關心我們原住民族人要如何發展自然碳會所以呢我在八月份的時候也跟幾位委員一起辦了一個原鄉碳會ESG工藝平台的公聽會您可以看到照片參與的人非常的踴躍爆滿為什麼因為大家既期待又不懂"},{"start":11326.597,"end":11343.896,"text":"好不容易現在我們陸陸續續從新聞上看到我們114年也要開始收碳費為了這個上路也看到政府很有心來做一個所謂的自主減量業者的一個誘因"},{"start":11345.718,"end":11363.751,"text":"那我看到呢我們訂定的一個規定這個削減率從300元的有可以變50元然後也可以變到100元的我個人認為這個誘因是足夠的啦但是我很關心的就是說請教一下這個能夠超過2.5萬公噸的大概都是什麼樣的公司啊"},{"start":11368.652,"end":11376.878,"text":"因為我們收費對象是製造業、電業跟燃氣業所以還是以製造業為主就是現在的收費就是類似那些水泥、鋼鐵、石化類那為什麼我想關心這個問題因為我們也看到113年的10月碳權交易也上路了那麼我們看到這個所謂的減量的額度它有的可以去抵碳費嘛"},{"start":11396.252,"end":11401.277,"text":"那有的呢 多的可以拿去賣嘛那你們的今天夜報也寫了齁就是2023年以後想要參考國際碳價的水準訂定什麼樣呢每噸1200元至1800元"},{"start":11413.65,"end":11435.264,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為我看到現在很多人都自己喊價嘛那個可以拿去賣的有的可以喊到4800喔那我這個也都沒有關係因為對我來講越高越好啊可是我現在想要看一下就是在我們的這個管理辦法當中的第7條它有提到一個第一項的第一款移除的類型"},{"start":11441.188,"end":11454.175,"text":"其實我們在辦的那個公益平台其實就是大概是屬於這一個類型那它也是含原住民族地區的自然碳會也就是一般會拿來去做企業的一個抵換移除那現在我想要問一下環境部部長"},{"start":11460.678,"end":11474.765,"text":"就是誘因也是足夠的那碳減量長期的趨勢呢又有剛性的需求那麼我評估啊請幫忙評估我就講五年後就好了會有多少企業加入這個自主減量專案"},{"start":11477,"end":11501.034,"text":"我先問好了,剛才的那個超過2.5萬公噸的齁,我有看到資料,大概是281加500場嘛。對。好,那請教一下5年後,有多少企業會加入這個自主減量?我跟委員報告,這一些企業其實明年就要提自主減量計畫了。是。因為如果他要適用優惠費率,他明年提自主減量計畫。你就告訴我,你預估大概多少家、多少場?"},{"start":11502.374,"end":11526.587,"text":"可能500場最少400場一定會提因為那個像委員剛剛的那個簡報有看我是講5年後5年後因為5年後我們的收費對象不曉得會不會調整或者是我們有沒有可能要進到那會變多還是變少應該會越來越多越來越多會大概成長5年後會成長到多少因為還要看我們那個往下調的那個時程"},{"start":11529.609,"end":11544.719,"text":"其實這一波不是我很關心的啦我關心的是山林的自然碳會啊所以我為什麼要問這個問題現在我為什麼一直問2.5萬公噸以上有多少家因為你的第三方驗證的機構現在不到15家嘛"},{"start":11548.041,"end":11553.542,"text":"而驗證費用將近一百萬那些超過2.5萬公噸的他也不擔心嘛是吧你要去做這個碳盤查又要去後來的幫他做減量規劃、碳移除的驗證費用我不擔心這些2.5萬公噸以上的我擔心的是未來的小型企業加入"},{"start":11570.487,"end":11598.49,"text":"那驗證費這麼貴 排隊的又那麼多所以我想請教環境部長那第三方驗證機構量能不足會不會影響減量的規模無法達標應該是不會啦因為我們目前的驗證機構其實量能夠多少家目前有15家15家夠有大概200是不是會後補充資料好 那沒有關係我現在就是要提醒"},{"start":11599.571,"end":11606.637,"text":"因為我關心的就是未來的自然碳會現在我是認為那麼會不會影響未來你講的220、320、碳加水準1200至1800的一個目標那如果說我們沒有辦法完成碳盤查、碳減量那市場要怎麼達標所以我希望經濟部我也想問你的業報說要協助產業人才那我們自己國內能做的"},{"start":11624.633,"end":11628.095,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估"},{"start":11654.793,"end":11668.581,"text":"下一位馬文君馬文君馬文君不在何新淳何新淳何新淳不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉不在賴世保賴世保賴世保不在廖偉祥下一位執行請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":11680.673,"end":11683.415,"text":"來,謝謝主席。有請兩位次長。請連市長跟市市長。"},{"start":11690.529,"end":11712.029,"text":"市長兩位我想要請問因為收取碳費是即將上路那依照這個碳收費辦法第五條、第六條被任務定為高洩漏的這個事業單位就可以在碳費的公司中享有碳排放係數的折扣所以0.2、0.4、0.6但是我想要請問一下何謂高洩漏這個事業單位"},{"start":11715.514,"end":11736.631,"text":"我們高碳洩漏的這個會從兩個指標來做認定一個就是它的排放密集度一個就是它的貿易密集度那用這兩個大指標來去算那現在有這個指標了現在有這個列表了嗎現在我們這個準則的列表出來現在狀況是怎麼樣我們現在在等這個主計總署把產業觀聯表所以還沒有對 我們會算那我想要問大概何時可以公佈認定高洩漏事業單位的準則因為你剛剛講的準則是兩個"},{"start":11744.437,"end":11759.414,"text":"好但是你的這個標準到底是什麼然後以及有多少這個有多少是符合的我們應該明年上半年希望能夠這個這個認定的準則還有一個作業的一個標準會公佈明年上半年會不會太晚了"},{"start":11760.419,"end":11778.457,"text":"因為其實依我們收費辦法他是後年要5月申報那後年的1月之前他去提高碳洩漏風險的這個身份的認定但前提他要先提自主檢查法你要想中間還有很多的流程然後審查行政然後企業也要去做這些相關的配套所以我認為你們應該要加速"},{"start":11783.061,"end":11796.875,"text":"好,我們盡可能會另外我想問那個碳費拍板定案每噸收300元那其實這個結果引發企業界跟環團都不滿意請問依照你們的立場依照經濟部的立場每噸300元是合理的嗎?"},{"start":11800.021,"end":11817.598,"text":"因為我們的看是看實質的角的費率啦那實質角的費率我們是本來是要對齊跟我們建政對手國日本跟韓國那我們本來是希望是說在10到60之間那後來因為這個碳我們提了好沒關係你認為合不合理"},{"start":11818.656,"end":11840.729,"text":"目前因為這個是共識局我們所以減碳其實是趨勢也是必走路但是大企業本身是比較有能力去做因為他們自己有獲利他有辦法去投資但是我國的中小企業就不見得有這個資金或是有能力可以去做所以我想要請問經濟部你對於中小企業減碳策略是什麼然後有哪些具體的協助方案可以讓中小企業邁向這個"},{"start":11842.295,"end":11850.14,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":11870.552,"end":11888.932,"text":"但是現在這個好像都不是很具體欸你這是方向大方陣沒有沒有這些已經都有愛心培練在做了很具體因為現在還是很多中小企業會不知道你到底要怎麼幫他們他們也很擔心那現在是2.5萬噸那什麼時候會變成是中小企業也要收那針對碳我們是希望他建立他碳能"},{"start":11890.383,"end":11904.364,"text":"我們有提供一天、兩天、三天的人才培訓,培訓完之後,他初步他針對他的碳管理就有一些能力。我想麻煩這個部長,麻煩次長,背後把全部資料送給委員。背後把全部資料送到本席辦公室喔。"},{"start":11904.804,"end":11931.625,"text":"那這個我也另外想要請問一下因為我們之前的部長有說過這個境外關內可以幫助國內的這個碳排高的產業往外移那包含著這個發電業、水泥、鋼鐵、石化甚至部分高科技產業都是高碳排我想要問大家要把它移到哪裡去然後我們把這個產業移出去的同時不是也是同時把資金和人才外流嗎?這個你們要怎麼因應?"},{"start":11932.365,"end":11945.922,"text":"這個我們部長有提過說這個要6個月內會提出一個嚴厲的計畫另外我要再講一下最後這個包含著經濟部長的前部長王美花曾經承諾我們台中爭一氣拆一美請問現在這個承諾還有效嗎?"},{"start":11948.81,"end":11963.438,"text":"這應該是按照承諾來做可是不對啊如果按照承諾來做的話現在看這上面啊這個是否2025增加臺中天然氣第一期的一號機組隔年2026年才拆有才要拆現有的兩部火力啊等等的"},{"start":11964.238,"end":11988.556,"text":"部長依照現在這個2024、2025你們拆除之後其實問題要到2031才能拆除34號機的燃煤機組可是你們現在看起來並沒有要並沒有說拆一氣就拆一煤現在台電有那個規劃我們把規劃的資料送給委員這邊好不好好請落實當初的承諾好謝謝廖偉祥委員來次長請回座"},{"start":11991.021,"end":11992.583,"text":"廖先祥不在。高金素美不在。許信不在。劉建國也不在。"},{"start":12002.452,"end":12021.163,"text":"登記發言委員處不在場之外,區域均勻發言完畢。我們詢答結束。由委員陳超明所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面諮詢及未及答案部分,請相關單位於一周內以書面答案並複製本位。本例議程處理完畢。現在,散會。"}]}},{"id":"16197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16197","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea910ea1e62573b11e90a0be61fea148186059d4d42a7fce212999ae7c3afcfb225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」公聽會113年10月23日（星期三）上午9時至12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-23T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-23T11:52:00+08:00","duration":12090,"影片長度":"03:21:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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林雅文"},{"start":2316.852,"end":2319.134,"text":"中華民國機車商業同業公會全國聯合會監事召集人馬金惠"},{"start":2339.187,"end":2355.395,"text":"今天公聽會的程序如下首先我們會先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言我們會依初期簽到的順序為原則每位專家學者的發言時間為8分鐘"},{"start":2358.156,"end":2375.569,"text":"本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記我們會在兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言的時間是5分鐘最後我們會再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":2378.699,"end":2384.781,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束會按鈴兩聲我們現在就先請部會報告首先我們請內政部的吳常務次長唐安報告"},{"start":2414.44,"end":2435.416,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務的關注跟指導那表達由衷的感謝之意那今天貴委員會也召開紀念日及節日實施條例草案的公聽會本部應邀列席報告深感榮幸那我想今天公聽會所列的討論提綱僅將內政部的意見說明如下"},{"start":2437.046,"end":2454.743,"text":"紀念日及節日是具有國家歷史發展及民俗傳承的意涵名稱、日期及放假等事宜目前是依照紀念日及節日實施辦法規定來辦理這個辦法總共定有11個紀念日、6個民俗節日、9個特定節日歷來關於紀念日及節日"},{"start":2457.942,"end":2467.756,"text":"結日之訂定增三：名稱：放假日數等問題各界的看法各有益查大院第11屆也總共有7個委員的提案版本"},{"start":2469.088,"end":2492.863,"text":"各個版本草案之立法主軸大概可以分為兩個部分一個是以紀念日及節日為主軸另外以國定假日為主軸現行實施辦法的架構是採前者分別規定了名稱、日期、慶祝或紀念方式以及是否放假及補假規定等至於後者則僅明列放假之紀念日及節日系以放假日為主軸"},{"start":2493.963,"end":2514.454,"text":"至於何種立法主軸較貼近我國當前民情則有待討論法案名稱也達五種,所以也期待凝聚共識目前各委員所言提的草案版本對於紀念日及節日之定定、名稱、增刪、宗教性節日、各職業紀念日、國定性紀念日等,見解也有不同"},{"start":2515.849,"end":2538.165,"text":"以現行紀念日之節日之放假日包括我們有中華民國的開國紀念日和平紀念日國慶日春節三天民族掃墓節端午中秋農曆除夕及兒童節總共是11日那另外還有原住民的原住民族的歲時祭儀勞動節跟軍人節那特定人員總共是各分別放假一日"},{"start":2539.216,"end":2556.941,"text":"查各委員對於紀念日及節日放假日數的提案少則12日多則達18日如果再加計週休二日全年的一個放假的總日數將達到全年日數的三分之一是否妥適需廣泛聽取各界意見來審慎橫著"},{"start":2558.801,"end":2577.092,"text":"部分委員也有提案將上班日跟放假日的調整納入草案中規範為考量上班日涉及到各行各業的運作需求是不是納入條例做硬性規定亦或由行政院人事行政總處及勞動部另行彈性處理也能帶審慎的討論"},{"start":2580.552,"end":2601.284,"text":"紀念日及節日實施具有文化傳承及莊嚴的意涵實施辦法所定的放假日是全國一體適用勞動基準法在105年以修正通過規定從106年1月1日起勞工實施一例一休並三足七天假除勞動節、軍人節及原住民"},{"start":2603.342,"end":2618.192,"text":"原住民族遂時祭儀之外全國紀念日及節日放假已趨一致有利文化傳承及家庭團聚有關公務員及勞工權益所涉工時及勞動條件公務人員依照公務員服務法"},{"start":2619.433,"end":2635.342,"text":"記相關人事的法規規定辦理勞工則是依照勞動基準法及其施行記者相關規定辦理其與紀念日及節日的實施性質雖然有不同但放假日的多寡影響甚去能因從國家整體利益綜合評估做最適當之規範"},{"start":2638.117,"end":2665.263,"text":"目前紀念日跟節日的放假日是計11日合計週休2日所以我們全國放假的總日數是115日至116日本部也依照大院89年6月30日三讀通過《公務員服務法》11條修正條文的附帶決議於89年修正實施辦法那規定自90年起中華民國開國紀念日次日等8個紀念日及節日調整為止紀念不放假另外有鑒於"},{"start":2666.483,"end":2693.914,"text":"紀念日及節日之放假日如逢星期六日除了農曆除夕跟春節有補假規定將造成104年全年放假總日數僅109日也影響了民眾的放假的權益所以內政部在103年3月17日也邀集相關的機關團體來開會那會中代表也對於增加放假日雖無共識但認為紀念日及節日放假日逢星期六日時應有補假規定"},{"start":2695.979,"end":2720.06,"text":"內政部也源於同年的修正實施辦法第五條之一規定也明定至104年起紀念日及節日放假日逢例假日一律補假至此全年的總放假日數已符合大院附帶決議規定這個也為本部會商各界的共識至於有關放假日的增加需考量人民的權利義務政府為民服務的服務效能"},{"start":2721.087,"end":2737.146,"text":"公商企業運作、產業營銷成本等等還有交通運輸調度、金融結匯股市教育等各層面問題這個影響層面也甚廣也期待凝聚各界的共識第4點有關原住民族與原住民"},{"start":2738.089,"end":2759.225,"text":"祖歲時祭儀放假一日：其放假日由原住民委員會來參酌各該原住民的習俗公告關於放假的對象日期請假辦法則由原民會來自行規定大院在審議111年中央政府總預算時也建議內政部要研議原住民歲時祭儀是否比照春節"},{"start":2760.106,"end":2760.586,"text":"在結論部分"},{"start":2784.174,"end":2799.146,"text":"目前的實施辦法是內政部的一個職權命令屬於有效法規也規範了紀念日及節日的名稱、日期、紀念或慶祝方式及放假規定等事宜與相關法令完成立法前為全國所應遵循"},{"start":2799.987,"end":2824.605,"text":"另外,內政部也為了推動我們紀念日及節日的法制化曾經在1991年、1994年、1999年我們都有三度嚴提紀念日及節日的實施條例草案來報請行政院轉大院審議也因為各界的意見分歧以致未能完成立法內政部除了會更需在收集各界意見之外我們也會致力完善相關的補駕規定來保障民眾的權益"},{"start":2827.911,"end":2846.862,"text":"最後在有關紀念日及節日之實施也本當順應時代的變遷來適時檢討與時俱進但因所涉層面甚廣社會各界尚有不同的意見跟期待也有待更進一步的討論及凝聚共識以上說明是敬請各位委員及各位學者先進知道謝謝"},{"start":2866.818,"end":2877.305,"text":"主席、各位委員、還有各位專家學者本會受邀列席本次公聽會非常榮幸以下請就本次公聽會各討論提供說明本會的意見"},{"start":2878.442,"end":2907.573,"text":"第一 紀念日及節日設定的文化社會與歷史意涵我國原住民族的文化底蘊豐富源源流長各族與部落依照季節時令地理環境與宗教信仰從傳統狩獵與農耕的遂時生活模式自年初到年中發展出多元的祭儀文化透過部落族人共同進行祈求致敬致謝慶祝或祭祀"},{"start":2908.496,"end":2927.31,"text":"從而體現各族的文化內涵並發揮文化傳承已經促進族群團結的社會功能依照憲法徵修條文第10條第11項國家肯定多元文化並積極維護發展原住民族語言及文化政府為支持原住民族人返鄉傳承文化記憶"},{"start":2928.444,"end":2955.405,"text":"在紀念日及節日實施辦法第4條第6款將原住民族的稅時記憶列為民俗節日並因依法放假一日放假日期之參據則由本會參酌各該原住民族的習俗公告在紀念日及節日的設定對勞工權益的影響的部分為了保障原住民族人向事業單位或僱主申請原住民族稅時記憶並落實依法給假或休假"},{"start":2957.045,"end":2966.352,"text":"依據《勞動基準法》第37條及39條規定內政部所定應方假至紀念日及節日僱主營餘休假且工資造給"},{"start":2967.475,"end":2995.018,"text":"原住民族的稅時基於休假至100年推動契金 同盟大院委員的關心以及勞動部合作鎮定宣導 越多的事業單位由被動配合轉為主動向員工提醒此項休假的權益 而且逐步帶動族人返鄉傳承文化之意識風氣然而本會陸續也接獲勞資雙方反映的一些實務問題 主要影響到原住民族勞工權益的太陽如下"},{"start":2996.88,"end":3019.459,"text":"休假日期或期間我國現存大概有740幾個原住民族部落可以申請休假期間現在是採族群別固定期間的方式公告不時有個別部落的碎石記憶活動非屬公告期間內之方稱難以判定是否給假造成勞工必須與之方協商"},{"start":3020.814,"end":3034.435,"text":"第二是檢據證明文件的部分現行方式為原住民員工申請時得檢據身份證明文件為人有僱主提出指向休假權益旨在增進族人返鄉參與部落祭儀活動"},{"start":3035.199,"end":3063.673,"text":"故鄉員工所取活動證明等相關事項第3有關配偶無法給假參有族人反映因為配偶畏懼原住民身份無法給假夫妻二人難以共同前往參與歲時祭儀降低族人返回部落之意願恐難以達到歲時祭儀給假推動文化傳承之目標以及立法的目的在第3大點就是有關紀念日及節日的設定各族群的意見因各族的紀念文化具有"},{"start":3064.301,"end":3091.262,"text":"具有其舉行的實典﹑實程序以及步驟本會履獲原住民族人普遍反映放假日數不足﹐難以完整傳承再者﹐多數族人現居都會區﹐單就往返家鄉或部落﹐守在地及其半日或一日的車程放假日數影響族人參與的意願另外﹐關於非原住民族國人亦有向本會表示"},{"start":3092.251,"end":3120.909,"text":"雖同列為國定民俗放假節日原住民族碎石記憶架竊給原住民族人獨具之權益恐加深族群間的隔閡對立與歧視另為了推動全民原住民族教育全民黨能各擇定至少一族的碎石記憶給架將能創造全民原教之時間與空間透過原住民族碎石記憶給架落實全民原教的目標最後"},{"start":3121.516,"end":3142.753,"text":"本會作為原住民族政策統合機關而且為了實踐全民原教的精神以上的說明本會屬於勞資雙方原住民族人以及國人反應之實務問題敬請大院委員及各位專家學者先進提供寶貴的意見使機關行政作為得以精進且利於後續修法作為的參與以上的報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請經濟部王專門委員歡迎報告"},{"start":3175.465,"end":3190.201,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好臣等各位委員會員邀請經濟部就紀念日及節日實施條例草案提出報告說明如下請委員不吝私教主要分三個部分來報告第一部分是"},{"start":3190.802,"end":3206.796,"text":"有關法衛界的提升現行的紀念日及節日的放假日數及廉價補假相關規定是依內政部定辦的紀念日及節日實施辦法來辦理有關大院黨團及委你將紀念日及節日實施辦法法制化"},{"start":3207.777,"end":3233.31,"text":"提升規範位階作為全國放假的依據經濟部尊重主管機關及大院的職權與決定第二部分對於經濟發展的影響現行全國性紀念日及節日的放假日包含開國紀念日、國慶日、和平紀念日、春節三天、民族掃墓節、端午節、中秋節、除夕節、兒童節等等總共有11天此外,上有原住民、碎屍祭儀、勞動節及軍人節等"},{"start":3235.311,"end":3250.421,"text":"分別放假一天 各委員對紀念日及節日放假日數的提案少者13天 多者18天 多於現行的放假日數且本草案明定紀念日及節日的放假日逢例假日應補為連假"},{"start":3252.422,"end":3275.61,"text":"7月於國定假日若要維持生產營運故主需依勞基法第39條規定除正等勞工同意外工資應加別發給我國製造業以出口導向為主大多數企業之生產排成需配合國外客戶需求若放假日增加企業未準時交單勢必得藉由員工交辦來因應"},{"start":3277.25,"end":3284.272,"text":"委員．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午9時．上午"},{"start":3299.938,"end":3316.543,"text":"生產事業成本工商廠銷運作交通及生產事業加班工資金融結匯海關進出口通關等諸多事項若予以增定對企業的產能全球經濟及臺灣經濟競爭力皆會產生影響第三結與經濟部向來秉持經濟發展與勞工權益並重的理念建議本案應與勞資團體進行充分的溝通協調"},{"start":3328.186,"end":3342.79,"text":"審慎橫走並有待更進一步的討論及凝聚共識以共創勞資雙贏以上報告敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請勞動部李專門委員移宣報告"},{"start":3356.175,"end":3380.062,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今日的公聽會勞動部能有機會應邀列席深感榮幸請提供勞動部的意見說明如下第一為了使勞工能夠比照公務人員實施週休二日以縮減其工作時間從105年1月1號開始勞動基準法的法定正常工時上限從每週的"},{"start":3380.862,"end":3402.37,"text":"每兩週的84小時 縮減為每週40小時同時也修正了勞動基準法第36條規定勞工每7日中應該有兩日的休息其中一日為例假 一日為休息日使勞工能夠在每週內有兩日的休息對於增進勞工的福祉應該有助益第二"},{"start":3403.05,"end":3420.104,"text":"為了配合週休二日政策以及落實全國國定假日統一放假勞動基準法第37條也修正為內政部所定應放假之紀念日、節日、勞動節及其他中央主管機關指定之應放假日均應放假"},{"start":3421.965,"end":3444.371,"text":"整體而言現行勞動基準法以確保每一個勞工都有週休二日的權益連同五一勞動節在內的12天國定假日勞工每年可以休假日數是116天至於國定假日是否要再增加是屬於全國一致性的事務勞動部尊重主管機關內政部以及今天大家討論的結果謝謝"},{"start":3448.922,"end":3452.657,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請教育部黃副處長紅軍報告"},{"start":3466.96,"end":3486.919,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天大院第11屆第2會期內政委員會邀請教育部列席並就紀念日及節日實施條例草案公聽會提出報告請說明如下 敬請各位委員指教有關紀念日及節日之放假涉及人民權利義務及生活作息且攸關辦公時間 工商企業運作"},{"start":3489.662,"end":3511.472,"text":"本更側面的問題內政部前為推動紀念日及節日法制化制定紀念日及節日實施辦法作為全國放假的參據現行紀念日及節日實施辦法所定孔子誕辰紀念日系考量教育史上孔子象徵有教無類因才施教之外事施表典型原定9月28日孔子誕辰紀念日為教師節"},{"start":3513.018,"end":3541.026,"text":"以紀念至聖先師其教育精神足作為教師之典範並發揚尊師重道優良傳統提振教師專業精神此紀念日及節日之定定有其歷史意義及價值令立法委員高金素美等18人擬據紀念日及節日實施條例草案立法委員吳麗華等17人擬據國家紀念日及節日實施法草案及立法委員牛雪婷等22人擬據紀念日及"},{"start":3542.006,"end":3555.933,"text":"結日實施條例草案等提案將祖父母節列為節日之一考量祖父母節系教育部為倡導家庭世代互動共學喚起各界對於親情、孝道及敬老尊賢倫理道德的重視"},{"start":3557.29,"end":3572.918,"text":"自99年起推動並自100年起將每年8月第4個星期日定為祖父母節至於本項議題涉及紀念日及節日實施辦法相關規範那教育部尊重該法規主管機關內政部及大院的決議以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3579.045,"end":3585.029,"text":"最後一個單位報告是請行政院人事行政總署將專門委員美方報告"},{"start":3594.586,"end":3612.24,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好那本總署就紀念日及節日放假法制化提出以下的報告 敬請各位指教現行的紀念日及節日的放假規定是依照內政部所訂定的紀念日及節日實施辦法辦理"},{"start":3613.281,"end":3632.14,"text":"該辦法已經明訂了全國紀念日及節日的名稱放假日期及放假日逢例假日應與補假為了利於政府行政機關上班日及放假日的安排有所依據並彈性調整上班的日期行政院之前在102年有訂定了"},{"start":3632.62,"end":3656.161,"text":"政府機關調整上班日期處理要點在不變更全年應放假總天數的前提下明定政府機關調整放假及補行上班日期等事項該要點在112年5月25日的時候因各界的建議有做修正已經降低了補行上班的次數來落實週休二日的議職"},{"start":3657.282,"end":3676.023,"text":"至於各位委員提案將紀念日及節日放假規定提升到法律的位階來明定各類紀念日及節日的放假方式、彈性調整放假等規定因為涉及國人的生活作息而且攸關工商企業的運作、產業營運的成本"},{"start":3679.346,"end":3685.148,"text":"交通運輸調度以及金融節惠股市交易等問題因為涉及的層面甚廣本總署將配合內政部來審慎研議以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3698.84,"end":3718.76,"text":"其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們接下來我們就請專家學者發言我們按照初期簽到的順序我們第一位我們請中華電信工會理事長紅秀龍理事長發言"},{"start":3728.677,"end":3754.071,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位與會人員大家好我是中華電信公會理事長紅秀榮很高興今天來這邊表達針對我們紀念日及節日的實施條例的一個公聽會做個說明公會的立場非常感謝各位委員的提出裡面的架最好每天都放"},{"start":3755.962,"end":3777.275,"text":"為什麼呢?因為勞工一肚子怒火從以前延續到現在今天的架為什麼讓勞工那麼生氣?因為政府結合資方欺負勞工從哪裡可以定定的?2000年就是民國89年的時候政府修正公務人員服務法"},{"start":3778.274,"end":3798.922,"text":"明定週休二日 但是授權行政院跟考試院去訂定相關的辦法的時候就是工人週休二日實施辦法結果裡面就砍掉7天假理由是要全國一致然而我們都知道工時的縮短是世界的潮流"},{"start":3800.373,"end":3825.362,"text":"政府為了在世界上能夠跟人家平起平坐維持尊嚴推廣週休二日這是美意但是不能騙人家你今天實施週休二日又砍人家的架是錯的到了民國105年2016年政府要修正勞基法的時候竟然又說了四個字全國一致"},{"start":3826.733,"end":3855.073,"text":"結果呢是向下沉淪所謂全國一致是勞工週休二餘後應該恢復公務人員的七天假對不對而不是幹掉勞工原有的七天假這叫全國一致那叫向下沉淪這大家先知道所以今天我們公會的立場政府因為要向下沉淪A走勞工的七天假要還給勞工"},{"start":3857.179,"end":3877.691,"text":"那我又來說明一下為什麼他要A走這7天假因為他說因為週休二日勞工會積欠僱主104小時這是笑話難道修法再進步就是積欠僱主嗎是不是不是因為如此他A走了這7天假之後我們勞工的上班時數"},{"start":3887.113,"end":3905.99,"text":"在世界各國家裡面我們算是很高的全世界大概前6名亞洲大概是僅次於新加坡我們的上班時數連日本韓國我們都贏不過連日本多先進工時1600個小時台灣呢要2008個小時"},{"start":3912.076,"end":3932.192,"text":"人家呢國定假日16天台灣呢12天基於這種種呢我們會感覺到政府在砍價的時候還有意識形態你要意識形態你就去做阿你幹嘛咧砍勞工的價你可以改名字就好了為什麼砍勞工的價我們舉例來講你所謂的全國一致性那請問全國在勞動節有放假了沒有"},{"start":3940.336,"end":3966.732,"text":"有沒有 沒有老公有放假 那應該全國放假第二 教師節 那教師很辛苦哩教師是不是領薪水的教師是自己出錢開學校嗎 不是不是的話 那為什麼教師節教師不能放假是不是 是不是該放假 是所以很多假齁 都是意識形態改的既然是意識形態改的 我們就應該恢復人家放假"},{"start":3967.776,"end":3978.037,"text":"如果問國公會的意見我剛剛就講過了每天都放假勞工最高興但是我們不會貪得無厭我們只要我們的七天假就好各位支不支持"},{"start":3980.233,"end":4001.758,"text":"所以我也希望我們的僱主團體應該為國家著想你今天不要用長工時壓低工資來增加你的競爭力你應該配合國家這個產業升級我們拿出一個高品質的產品去跟人家競爭而不是壓榨勞工來增加你的所得 對不對"},{"start":4003.703,"end":4024.947,"text":"所以我真的希望委員能夠大力的幫忙希望各位能夠支持讓我們勞工要回我的祈天下以上就是我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來我們請臺北大學公共行政系教授 呂育成 呂教授"},{"start":4032.363,"end":4051.031,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 各位代表 大家早安我是臺北大學公共行政系李玉成非常有榮幸這樣的機會來跟各位分享一下關於這一個條例草案的一個相關的這個意見我想"},{"start":4052.109,"end":4076.767,"text":"今天的討論提綱有四個我接到這個討論提綱以後非常的有興趣這四個其實都非常重要可是各位有沒有發現好像譬如說第二點跟第三點似乎好像有一點點我們會有不一樣的衝突或矛盾產生所以我針對這四個提綱我的疑問就是我們今天討論的重點到底是要去探討所謂的紀念節日如何來認定"},{"start":4078.826,"end":4102.521,"text":"還是來探討我們的這個放假日如何來落實剛才第一位發言的這一個先進提到不管是幾天好像大家不同都有不同的意見所以我想我們今天可能先要去聚焦一下我們的焦點即便是要法治化到底應該把重點放在哪裡那麼因為時間有限我先來談我的個人的結論"},{"start":4104.83,"end":4119.425,"text":"如果我們今天一直在談到底哪一天要不要放假似乎好像不會有任何的這一種共識因為就像剛才提到的每一個行業每一個族群都會有不同的理解跟認知所以我的這個結論的第一個"},{"start":4121.187,"end":4148.628,"text":"目前全國性的一致性的假日應該以紀念日或是民俗節日來作為基本的範圍也就是說我們在一個目前的最基本的共識上先來思考這些假期的一個合理性跟安排性事實上我想各位委員或是各位先進應該知道臺灣在現在的多元社會裡面早就已經有各種不同的行業群體譬如說今天是寒露那非常有紀念價值"},{"start":4149.844,"end":4174.066,"text":"我們應不應該來放假呢我想這個就是一個很典型的例子那麼第二個點就是各行業各群體乃至於各個族群的這種紀念的假期我們都一定應該尊重但是到底要用什麼樣的方式來展現我個人的想法是我們的重點應該是要去決定某一個程序"},{"start":4175.123,"end":4175.443,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4199.264,"end":4214.523,"text":"而我覺得這次法制化的重點其實不應該擺在哪一天該放或是放幾天應該擺在放假日的決定的程序來確保各方面都能夠落實去遵守這個遊戲規則這是我個人的一個結論"},{"start":4215.644,"end":4230.87,"text":"好那為了要去解釋這些我用幾張簡單的投影片跟各位長官分享第一個目前的這個內政部的紀念日及節日實施辦法大概已經指出了關於節日或者是這個紀念日他的一個思考的方式"},{"start":4231.821,"end":4260.301,"text":"那我的副標題是像這樣的一個方式真的是屬於我們特有的這麼多年來累積起來的一個基本的共識我想很多可能先進會提到說其他國家怎麼樣其他國家怎麼樣我用這張只是要去表達像這樣的一個節日的認定方式可能去比日本可能去比歐洲可能去比特定的國家嗎我覺得似乎意義不大所以我還是要強調的是這是一個非常需要共識的一個"},{"start":4260.981,"end":4261.861,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4289.156,"end":4305.855,"text":"那在一個60的情況之下我想各位先進一開可以知道它裡面的樣態它裡面的差異性它裡面的多元性非常的高所以全國一致信訪假我的副理事確定可以放得到嗎就拿最近的颱風假來看其實還是有很多不一樣的樣態"},{"start":4307.165,"end":4328.406,"text":"那麼對於經濟的影響這也是主一種處的我們現在60%以上的這個GDP是由服務業來貢獻那麼各位不妨想想看放假方式越固定越有利於我們整個生產毛額的提升還是越多元這個部分我覺得是可以去更深度的思考"},{"start":4329.298,"end":4357.57,"text":"那麼勞基法其實對於放假有更具體的規定它其實包含了休息日放假日特休日三種類型那如果純粹把它聚焦到放假這個議題來說目前其實已經提供了相當多的選擇那麼有沒有必要把這些假日的概念全部聚焦在同一天全國一致性讓所有的人都必須要在這個地方做放假我覺得這件事情在"},{"start":4358.447,"end":4382.488,"text":"今天跟過去的這種不同的時代是不一樣的就像剛才第一位發言的先進提到的勞動節當然理論上勞工應該放假但實際上真的勞工都可以在那一天放假嗎或者是所有勞工都在那天放假是一個可大家都可以接受或認同的嗎所以這是我的一個想法對不起"},{"start":4385.115,"end":4412.788,"text":"那另外一個勞基法39條的這個規定其實放假我想各位先進都知道它涉及到的當然就是所謂的假期的一個計算來自於這一個加班費或者是相關的這一個附加的這個成本那它的影響我想不用多說重點在於像這樣的一個改變我想如果我們剛才提到對於放假難以有一個標準的一個做法的話我們是不是更需要一個程序來決定這一件事情"},{"start":4413.743,"end":4436.865,"text":"所以我的最後的結論是某某天要不要放假重不重要當然很重要但是更重要的一件事情是我現在說想要放的人或需要放的人他真的能夠放到假第二個是他個人覺得他不需要或是他覺得他在其他的考量更重要的時候他有其他的選擇"},{"start":4438.115,"end":4456.829,"text":"所以我覺得我們對於這個草案可能更重要的在於我們透過一定的遊戲規則透過一定的討論去決定什麼樣的程序什麼樣的一個過程什麼樣的標準應該來放假然後希望大家都來遵守這樣的遊戲規則以上是我的分享 謝謝"},{"start":4464.476,"end":4467.78,"text":"紀念日及節日實施條例草案所牽涉的層面廣"},{"start":4479.874,"end":4502.261,"text":"各方不同立場不同意見立法院7位委員提出預計排案前特別辦公聽會聽到各方不同立場不同角度、廣泛意見今天的公聽會"},{"start":4507.644,"end":4522.335,"text":"民進黨、國民黨、民眾黨推派專家學者或民間代表公聽會聽到各方各面不同角度、不同立場的意見劉許廷委員"},{"start":4534.305,"end":4556.044,"text":"謝謝主席首先我們要感謝徐新寅召委費心安排促成今天這個紀念日與節日實施條例草案的公聽會這個今天來自各方的不同意見要火力全開血流成河也好或者是要溫文儒雅這個理性討論也好都可以"},{"start":4556.644,"end":4575.864,"text":"因為公聽會是一個各方能夠暢所欲言的場合我們也希望透過這樣的一個場合充分收集各界的意見來有效的推動後續立法的這樣子的一個進度所以再次感謝也感謝各界先進的踴躍出席這些今天大家的發言都會成為未來我們在修法的過程討論的重要參考"},{"start":4578.266,"end":4591.612,"text":"本期政委這次的修法主要討論三個面向第一節日與紀念日的意義第二對於勞動大眾的幫助第三對於經濟層面的影響紀念日跟節日涉及一個國家民族對自己文化歷史脈絡的彰顯"},{"start":4594.173,"end":4620.579,"text":"這個當然例如我們中華民國傳統文化本來就是我們生活的日常同時啊它也是國家發展歷程中有重大的歷史事件跟指標意義的時候必須予以紀念這本來也是國家發展不可或缺的一環在中華民國民主化的過程中也有很多值得紀念的地方我們的原住民客家人新住民的族群文化特色在近年也越來越受到重視跟發展因此啊"},{"start":4620.999,"end":4649.857,"text":"透過法律來表彰各個族群或是國家歷史來用節日的方式來規範其實是從民主憲政的高度對於國家肯定多元文化政策的具體落實換言之紀念日與節日的實施啊它值得一步法律的慰藉因此本席提案之外也會以開放的心態來面對個別紀念日跟節日的討論第二討論今天最重要我想也是最多人關心的對於勞動權益的影響"},{"start":4651.65,"end":4673.738,"text":"紀念日及節日的設定除了剛剛的文化傳承意義之外因為假日的天數會直接影響勞動權益及經濟發展現行中華民國的國定假日一共有12天相較於南韓的15天日本的16天顯著不足台灣的勞工總工時按勞工報告高達2008小時全世界排名第6"},{"start":4674.958,"end":4696.235,"text":"很多人會講歐美的國定假日天數比我們少但是我要提醒大家歐美的特休假天數遠勝台灣當初在修正這個推行週休二日的法制化推動所謂的一例一休的時候配套粗暴地刪除了七天的國定假日看似平衡但其實大可不必"},{"start":4696.835,"end":4725.75,"text":"特別是當初以辦法跟行政命令這樣一個位階完全沒有辦法在立法院有實質的討論一旨行政命令就對勞工造成重大衝擊因此當初周修二是法治化的美意不幸淪為勞基法修二的惡名而勞工朋友的創傷到今天為止依然存在因此我們主張討回七天假他只是還給勞工公道這是我們早該做也是在野黨必須要完成的使命"},{"start":4726.73,"end":4745.568,"text":"因此本席也主張剛剛有很多人講怎麼落實到底應該怎麼做本席主張透過《國定假日法》字化的角度來處理就是因為在過去我們授權雙方自行協商或者是給予充分彈性的時候勞工往往是弱勢的一方從立法上來做管理"},{"start":4746.269,"end":4746.289,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4761.986,"end":4784.617,"text":"過勞工時過長的勞工可以因為放假天數的增加而得到喘息的機會而部分基於這個服務樣態而必須出勤的勞工也會因為這個勞基法39條規定工資照給法定有薪假的機制設計不但不會減少工資還能夠因為出勤而有雙倍工資的待遇"},{"start":4785.237,"end":4808.45,"text":"所以對於勞工來講這是一場穩贏不輸的賽局希望各界的勞工朋友站出來為自己的權益發聲最後我們要談及有關經濟的影響誠然台灣的出口競爭力等等在過去討論勞資等等爭議的時候都被拿出來討論但我要提醒產業也不純然只是製造業服務業也是產業"},{"start":4809.55,"end":4833.613,"text":"觀光旅宿也是產業零售銷售也是產業我們台灣的勞工往往是有時間賺錢沒時間花錢這難道不會影響我們內需的經濟嗎這難道不會影響資源的流動嗎透過合理的增加放假天數不只是讓該喘息的勞工有時間喘息也可以把過去累積的成果能夠犒賞一下自己吧"},{"start":4834.053,"end":4836.256,"text":"中小企業、服務業是另外的商機、機會嗎?幾方權衡後,難道不會透過妥善協商達成真正的勞資雙贏嗎?開放的態度來面對"},{"start":4854.355,"end":4883.555,"text":"本期提這個法案的修法重點其實就是增加放假的天數雖然在紀念日跟節日的意義上我們用開放的心態來討論在彈性休假等等的安排上面我們也會廣大各界的意見用開放的心態來討論但我們不希望這些討論的肢解影響放假天數的數量所以我們希望今天在公聽會之後各界能夠快速的達成共識盡快的來安排法案的實質討論也更加希望"},{"start":4884.235,"end":4884.875,"text":"臺灣工人鬥陣總工會理事長何鎮嘉理事長"},{"start":4912.11,"end":4923.782,"text":"主席好 還有以及各位出席的委員還有列席的代表 大家好我是台灣公民鬥陣總工會理事長何振嘉首先先感謝委員的召集讓我們"},{"start":4924.844,"end":4953.256,"text":"老公團體有這個機會可以在這邊發表意見從勞工整體分配縮減工時及國人期待廉價的角度我國政府應該要增加國定假日政府若認為一口氣恢復七天國定假日對產業衝擊過大也應該朝逐年或每兩年恢復一至二日的國定假日的方向來前進那以下"},{"start":4954.755,"end":4979.583,"text":"本人就三方面來進行報告第一回應產業衝擊與中小企業影響當年民進黨政府堅持要在推動一例一休的同時刪除七天國定假日的原因其中就包括在縮減工時的同時要兼顧產業衝擊與中小企業影響然而工會認為"},{"start":4981.704,"end":5010.609,"text":"這件事得從我國經濟成長與受僱人人員分配的角度來看依據主計總署統計從我國101年至111年經濟成長與GDP的分配面結果的趨勢可以明顯看到近10年來我國整體經濟持續成長的同時分給世界單位的營業營餘占比也是持續上升"},{"start":5012.691,"end":5032.391,"text":"但受僱人員報酬的占比卻是持續在下降顯現整體經濟獲利的同時分配給勞工的部分越來越少同時以國際比較來看我國在2021年受僱人員報酬占GDP為43.1%美國則有53.5%"},{"start":5037.557,"end":5060.816,"text":"日本也有53.2%甚至南韓都有46.7%因此無論從我國GDP分配的歷史變化或者是近年國際的比較來看我國受僱人員的勞動條件絕對都還有提升的空間無論是工資或者是休假的部分第二為了縮減工時"},{"start":5062.93,"end":5080.258,"text":"接下來臺灣雖然已經實施一例一休週休二日但是根據統計資料的比較我國仍然是屬於高工時的國家勞動部日前在公布國際勞動統計臺灣去年就業者平均每年工時為2008小時在39個主要國家中排名第6名根據資料顯示"},{"start":5089.843,"end":5102.211,"text":"39個主要國家排名第一名的為哥倫比亞2381小時其次為墨西哥2335小時排名第二第三為新加坡2293小時"},{"start":5105.173,"end":5115.876,"text":"與亞洲其他國家比較總工時也僅次於新加坡韓國則以109小時排名在台灣之後日本則為1626小時顯示台灣相較於高工時過勞著稱的韓國日本也都是高工時的狀態"},{"start":5124.618,"end":5150.496,"text":"這樣的統計可能還不足以反映因為S123求職網農聯社處新生與職場幸福指數調查的結果顯示臺灣勞工有64%擔憂工時過勞還有五成七的勞工曾經先下班打卡再繼續加班的經驗等於是無酬加班"},{"start":5153.281,"end":5180.128,"text":"臺灣勞基法在1984年上路2000年所致政黨輪替後對於工時制度還引發激烈的抗爭最後採取雙週84公尺到了2016年為了要因應40公尺政府與僱主團體合謀砍掉7天國定假日再次引發激烈衝突也就是說臺灣每16年就要因為工時議題而引發勞資矛盾"},{"start":5185.117,"end":5207.322,"text":"以及重大衝突所以我們為什麼不能反著路也就是說政府有共識每兩年增加一兩天的國定假日一方面讓這個勞工可以逐步的增加休息時間也不會讓雇主衝突性覺得成本提高第三民眾對廉價的期待"},{"start":5209.181,"end":5231.662,"text":"對於臺灣民眾來說因為國定假日的不足年續假日可能得要老天決定因為以今年為例最後一個政府宣布的年續假日早在6月的端午節就放完了是10月份我們依靠了颱風假才多放了一次連假所以真的是靠老天決定"},{"start":5233.188,"end":5251.935,"text":"以明年114年來說臺灣僅有6個連續假日分別是農曆春節、二八連假、清明連假、端午、中秋和國慶連假相較之下日本有9個臺灣勞工對於連續假期是期待的只要看"},{"start":5253.342,"end":5271.901,"text":"人事行政總署公布的行事曆之後有多少新人血如何請假最划算就可以看到雖然說連假未必是越多越好但是因為臺灣每年幾乎只有6個連假所以非常容易造成民眾安排旅遊"},{"start":5273.476,"end":5273.656,"text":"主席"},{"start":5304.428,"end":5310.434,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請中國醫藥大學通識中心助理教授 劉佑學教授"},{"start":5318.212,"end":5343.364,"text":"主席 各位委員還有各部會的長官還有與會的學者專家各位先進 大家早安我是中國醫藥大學通識教育中心的助理教授 劉佑學我想這次的修法最具爭議的應該是到底要放什麼假以及到底要放多少天當然這兩者有可能互相牽絆"},{"start":5344.758,"end":5365.108,"text":"那麼我今天就從這個工作時間跟休假的角度來談談關於後面那個問題就是關於日數的問題的一些看法前面許多先進都有提到台灣工時過長的問題那當然有提到這個比較世界各國的總工時"},{"start":5366.584,"end":5394.997,"text":"那過去勞動部其實一直會說因為我們國家的這個部分工時太少的關係所以我們的總工時會被高估所以其他國家工時低是因為他們的部分工時的工作者比較多那我們為了避免這樣的一個統計數據上的爭議我們把主要全職的受僱勞工的每週經常工時拿出來看可是即便我們把這個數字拿出來看以後你可以看得出來"},{"start":5396.479,"end":5417.17,"text":"台灣在跟世界主要的國家來比較我們的工時還是比其他國家還要來得長那也比OECD這個國家的平均都還要來得高那麼過去其實我們經常會提到一個概念也就是說工時的長短其實跟你的休假息息相關"},{"start":5418.683,"end":5441.394,"text":"那接下來我就讓大家來看一下臺灣的休假日在世界上大概佔什麼樣的位置剛才其實許多先進都有提到這個其他國家的國定假日的日數比我們多那其實也不是只有國定假日的日數比我們多而已我們連特休假都還輸給主要的國家所以如果你從這張表我們把"},{"start":5442.625,"end":5462.159,"text":"法定最低特別休假也就是你年資滿一年你就會拿到多少天的這樣的一個各國的法律規定加上各國的國定假日加起來以後你會發現台灣只有19天在世界主要國家裡面敬佩莫作"},{"start":5463.32,"end":5464.761,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":5483.919,"end":5499.09,"text":"那就這個特休假來說那一定也會有非常多先進會說那我們是不是應該討論特休假要不要增加的問題當然這個我也支持這也是可以討論的問題可是我們就現在來說到底特休假能不能落實"},{"start":5501.249,"end":5506.533,"text":"從過去歷年來的勞動部公布的統計數據來看訪問了4000多名的受僱勞工你會發現這些受訪的勞工裡面他們的特別休假平均天數是12.7天如果我以2019年為例的話"},{"start":5521.445,"end":5547.175,"text":"可是它真正能夠放到假的只有8.4天換句話說我們把這個使用率算出來的話大概只有六成到七成不等那其中有一年 其中兩年特別高我想跟疫情有關係那很多的公司可能公司行號可能沒有這個營運又或者是因為剛好這個工作跟家庭小孩也放假的關係所以特休才在這兩年特別被使用到"},{"start":5548.515,"end":5575.625,"text":"後來隨著疫情結束以後特休的使用率又降下去了所以從這個層面來看我們即便有特休假可是放到的機會並不多那更何況有三成的勞工大概不知道自己有特休假的存在我覺得這是在落實層面上非常非常大的問題那從日數來看我們比其他國家來得少然後在特休假的部分又沒有辦法放到我想這是目前我看到最大的一個問題"},{"start":5576.769,"end":5597.716,"text":"那最後的三分鐘我來講一下我的結論我想國定假日是可以發揮這個承載國家記憶、文化價值或避免重蹈覆轍歷史錯誤的一個作用可是就我看來國定假日其實還可以扮演提升國人福祉平衡工作跟個人生活或促進家庭融洽的這樣的一個功能"},{"start":5598.456,"end":5620.151,"text":"特別勞動部在另外一份的報告裡面其實也有指出非常多的工作家長都認為陪伴小孩的時間過少可是要怎麼樣讓這個小孩跟這個家長可以同步都享有這個天倫之樂其實國定假日是一個非常好的選擇因為兩邊都同時休假特休還不一定那麼"},{"start":5621.804,"end":5647.809,"text":"過去2016年我們曾經針對這個工作時間進行改革剛才許多先進都有提到不過我們從後來的往後的幾年的數據來看其實降低工作時間的效果非常有限那一般社會大眾對於這種每週的這種縮短工時其實相對無感那同時我們跟其他國家來比較我們的剛才給大家呈現的資料我們也看到我們每週經常工時也相對來得高"},{"start":5650.022,"end":5654.926,"text":"二、我國特別休假及國定假日日數低於其他國家"},{"start":5665.086,"end":5686.44,"text":"那麼再加上特別休假的使用率偏低確實臺灣的受僱勞工面臨的是休假權力保障不足的問題所以最後我認為國定假日的好處是國人可以擁有共同的生活節奏職場跟學校可以配合得起來僱主比較不會刁難就臺灣的現況來說國定假日是大家比較放得到的"},{"start":5687.492,"end":5711.299,"text":"特休其實有時候需要配合公司的安排也要經過僱主的同意我覺得這比較不容易那國定假日從現狀來看是多數勞工比較可以擁有享用到的這個權利那落實放假的可能性其實比較高那我基於以上這些原因跟理由我想我是支持國定假日的日數應該要增加的以上 謝謝"},{"start":5715.372,"end":5717.313,"text":"主席 各位親愛的家人 大家早安"},{"start":5746.78,"end":5768.78,"text":"今天公聽會我們將計較在全國假期制度問題來共同討論紀念日和節日不僅僅是放假時機它是承載的歷史文化和精神的內涵目前紀念日及節日放假規範僅是"},{"start":5772.317,"end":5786.706,"text":"一位階級較低的人的行政命令對於勞動者的權利明顯保障不足為了落實民眾黨主席柯文哲的政見臺灣民眾黨已承諾提出"},{"start":5791.329,"end":5801.583,"text":"紀念日及節日實施條例草案希望能通過提升法律位階將現行修改法治化"},{"start":5806.389,"end":5813.952,"text":"另外現行制度下只有部分勞工能享有勞動節的假期公務人員與教師卻被排除在外我們主張讓所有的勞動者都能平等享有放假的權利支持教師節與勞動節雙雙列為國定假日"},{"start":5834.601,"end":5848.17,"text":"讓全國辛苦的老師以及勞工可以放假一天並調整彈性放假的制度可以增加親子共同相處的時光讓假期可以更加人性化期望這個法案能夠獲得朝野各政黨的支持儘快通過"},{"start":5861.118,"end":5866.144,"text":"公聽會就是讓大家一手 唱首一言讓我們邀請場觀學各界的領域一起來充分的討論讓"},{"start":5876.943,"end":5899.642,"text":"假日更符合我們大家的需求祝今天的公聽會圓滿成功因為我們要跟大家也說明一下還有時間因為我們台灣的教師節沒有放假因為我本身是越南人所以我們越南是在越南是全國放假的"},{"start":5900.623,"end":5908.449,"text":"因為呢教師節就是感恩老師感恩我們的教師所以呢全國放假就是讓老師來去感恩自己的老師也讓我們父母也是帶著小孩子去感謝老師也是感謝老師教育我們我們才有這樣子的成就這樣子的成長所以呢全國都是放假的所以我們希望不管是勞動節"},{"start":5930.584,"end":5930.624,"text":"民眾黨主張"},{"start":5960.816,"end":5961.758,"text":"臺灣工人鬥陣總工會副理事長"},{"start":5972.549,"end":5999.29,"text":"首先還是要很謝謝就是我們內政委員會在許委員的召集下然後促成了這一場的公聽會然後這是非常難能可貴的一件事那我是曲家雲我今天是代表台灣工人鬥陣總工會這是一個剛成立的全國性的總工會那我今天代表台灣工人鬥陣總工會我是副理事長曲家雲對不起我是沒有開嗎好"},{"start":6005.232,"end":6016.568,"text":"首先我要強調的是前面聽了那麼多學者專家的敘述我相信大家脈絡都很清楚我再次強調我們的國定假日其實有兩個非常重要的意義一個就是勞動條件"},{"start":6018.39,"end":6034.51,"text":"一個就是所謂的國家記憶我們要紀念很多很有意義的事情勞動條件國家記憶我們基本上我們工會的基本上立場就是前面也重申過有很多專家學者也重申過有關勞動條件的部分站在工人的立場我們認為不應該下降"},{"start":6036.653,"end":6036.773,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6052.108,"end":6074.155,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":6074.475,"end":6102.092,"text":"那我再多說一下假如我們台灣想要有像南韓的韓江大家都知道他是諾貝爾文學獎的女性得主就是女性的作家我們如果台灣也想要出一個這麼優秀的像韓江這樣的人或者想要有日本棒球界的大谷祥平或者籃球界的那個童春永輝"},{"start":6103.735,"end":6104.435,"text":"中文字幕剪輯&字幕剪輯"},{"start":6119.264,"end":6119.704,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":6135.657,"end":6136.157,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6161.092,"end":6179.886,"text":"這些國定假日通通都是威權的這個遺留下來的情緒它代表威權我們要打破它那所以呢因應時代的民主發展我們不應該紀念也不應該放假當時大家聽到最多的說法是這樣可是我們不反對這樣的說法也都有討論的空間"},{"start":6181.027,"end":6195.66,"text":"但是為什麽要拿砍掉勞工朋友們的基本權益勞動條件七天假來做文章呢那所以呢 公會基本的立場就是我在重申的就是我們的放假日本來就是涉及到勞動條件跟意識形態這兩個層面"},{"start":6198.482,"end":6225.249,"text":"是這兩個層面去決定什麼日子我們要放假什麼日子我們只要紀念然後勞動條件的部分我們就是主張不應該下架不應該砍然後其他的意識形態或者轉型正義各個方面我們都覺得各界都應該打開心胸來討論然後讓台灣有更好的發展所以這些因應時代的發展跟調整完全都不是問題也就是說還勞工齊天價甚至增加更多的假期"},{"start":6226.709,"end":6240.915,"text":"跟過去當年一直強調的這個所謂的意識形態威權的這個遺留的情緒其實是兩件事不應該混為一談不應該來消費消費老百姓那另外另外比如說反過來我再講"},{"start":6242.657,"end":6261.497,"text":"反過來再講國定假日它有一定的意識形態的代表部分那事實上這個都不是錯誤那如果說我們放假日該有的意識形態需要調整轉型也都沒有問題可是我們要讓政府知道就是你真的有好好的去推廣"},{"start":6262.458,"end":6262.919,"text":"中文字幕剪輯"},{"start":6279.855,"end":6280.255,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":6298.111,"end":6318.164,"text":"運動這些都亟待發展很重要的產業我們都應該要去重視它那我舉兩個比較典型的例子讓大家來參考我們大家都知道1989年的4月7日鄭南榮先生他用自焚的方式去表達一個難能可貴的追求民主自由的精神"},{"start":6319.064,"end":6341.05,"text":"然後大家也都認同也都倡議這一天4月7號應該要列為國定假日我們應該要來紀念這個言論自由紀念這個很難得打破威權言論有自由民主自由的一個這個精神所以很多很多的場合都有公開宣傳這樣的事蹟那為什麼這樣的一個這麼重要的日子我們只紀念不放假"},{"start":6342.489,"end":6366.462,"text":"為什麼只紀念不放假然後現在我們可以去問問身邊的朋友們尤其是比較年輕的一代他還認識鄭楠榮先生嗎那他對民主的精神有多少認識呢那如果政府是真的要落實去推廣一個這麼重要這麼寶貴的一個民主精神一個言論自由的精神請問他做了嗎請問他做了嗎那這個不免讓我們讓我們合理的去懷疑"},{"start":6367.262,"end":6386.234,"text":"政府他是不是在這個價值上其實是打一個假的球他其實在消費了鄭南榮先生當時用字粉去想要號召想要表達的一個言論自由的民主精神這個是讓我們覺得很遺憾的事因為這個是一個普遍我們大概大家都會知道的一個過去發生的歷史那"},{"start":6386.974,"end":6387.194,"text":"中華民國1987年解嚴"},{"start":6405.168,"end":6427.744,"text":"因為過去認為這是一個威權限制了大家那麼是不是我們也更應該要用一個打破戒嚴的方式不只是紀念然後來告訴大家我們要拒絕威權我們要倡議民主自由我時間可能不夠了對不起那我大概簡單還要講那我身為一個基層勞工言論自由重不重要很重要在國家在政府應該要推行但回到企業裡呢"},{"start":6428.464,"end":6457.506,"text":"我身為勞工代表我身為一個公會幹部那也代表廣大的勞工如果在企業裡面他想要去跟僱主爭議一些事情想要表達一些意見很大的可能尤其是公會幹部甚至弱小的勞工他可能就會被免職被記過被各種處分那請問請問言論自由這件事在企業裡面有被推廣有被落實嗎這個是精神層面上的事所以我們希望我們希望這樣很重要的精神利用放假還有這個紀念的方式可以落實"},{"start":6459.388,"end":6482.86,"text":"那我再簡單講一下少子化的問題還有人口年齡老化這些都是很重要的議題這個都跟高工時少休假人民沒有辦法去消費沒有辦法去發展自己的興趣自己的專長沒有辦法去讓產業從代工的角度去提升到一個開創品牌引領世界潮流品牌的一個角度其實這個在國家政策上是走"},{"start":6483.32,"end":6504.657,"text":"是倒退的 是退步的如果我們希望以後的孩子們可以有更多的時間跟空間可以好好的從事休閒活動好好的去發展他的專長發展他的興趣我們以後要有更多一點的像韓江像那個太古祥平這樣的專業人士我們其實就應該好好的深思我們身為父母的人有沒有辦法帶小孩多一點閱讀多一點參與活動小孩子們有沒有機會多一點點的閱讀多一點點參與活動甚至發展他的專才發展他的潛能"},{"start":6511.843,"end":6512.904,"text":"高雄市中小企業產業聯盟協會理事長吳明媛理事長"},{"start":6539.578,"end":6541.753,"text":"主席還有今天參與的各位朋友大家好"},{"start":6542.83,"end":6572.185,"text":"然後本人的話針對幾個議題我來跟大家說明一下剛才前面很多專家學者談論到有關於勞工權利的這部分的一個一個休假日的不足的部分其實這部分其實是從105年那部分從工時降低48小時到40小時以內是經過他們的各個一個努力到目前的階段其實已經在勞工方面的政策其實已經達到相當的一個成果的部分了"},{"start":6572.825,"end":6573.785,"text":"《紀念日及節日實施條例草案》"},{"start":6593.121,"end":6614.716,"text":"日期假日不足的話是不是可以直接放在那個特休假的一個延長的部分畢竟你在紀念日的部分的一個設定這個名詞的話可能會比較有它特殊的一個意義在啦所以今天很多我聽前面的一個專家學者包括勞工這部分的話其實大家也是"},{"start":6616.697,"end":6618.238,"text":"紀念日及節日實施條例草案公聽會113年10月23日．星期三．"},{"start":6645.535,"end":6664.253,"text":"在七個版本的一個委員的部分其實在假日的部分其實除了延伸之前的一個交集那個我們的今天跟節日的一個一個那個辦法之的東西其實還要配合一部分就是跟整個一個國際的"},{"start":6665.894,"end":6666.374,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6688.982,"end":6689.282,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6719.062,"end":6720.363,"text":"《紀念日及節日實施條例草案》公聽會第11屆第2會議"},{"start":6744.737,"end":6770.376,"text":"紅樓的部分其實針對在7月的部分其實壓力是蠻大的那你至於說把天數調整比較多的話其實還面臨到一個問題就是所謂的我們比如說你遇到禮拜二或是你遇到禮拜天你要調價的話那調價是否可能天數多換調價的一個範圍可能又要調整有時候你在"},{"start":6771.357,"end":6796.5,"text":"你把它調到禮拜六去其實我就有所了解的話你調到禮拜六去的話有的人可能認為禮拜六我要跟家人或小孩要享受天然之樂的話反而說他也比較一夕難三啦所以你把它調下的話其實你天數多很多的話你再調下其實這個是不是有相關比較好的機制可以兼顧到這方面的考量的部分"},{"start":6798.121,"end":6820.008,"text":"這部分 區會議司長提到在節日部分其實很多我們比較忽略到的包括一些體育的部分 文化的部分其實這部分在節日部分可以設定比較多一點像體育節 藝術節的部分另外的部分 有一些特殊的"},{"start":6820.928,"end":6821.228,"text":"主席"},{"start":6838.141,"end":6860.089,"text":"紙種其實也蠻多的假如說你只有去交到幾個紙種的話其實是不是後面也有些節日的部分包括說你一個會計師是不是要設定一個什麼節日啊什麼之類其實這部分的話是不是也是納入一個比較我們要去注意的一個點的部分只紀念不放假的部分這個部分是不是"},{"start":6860.809,"end":6861.049,"text":"賴氏寶委員"},{"start":6901.242,"end":6919.986,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進首先要給主席按一個讚今天能夠開這樣的公聽會因為有不少的委員聽到外界很多的聲音特別是勞工團體黃偶七天假台灣已經變成全世界是過勞之島"},{"start":6922.807,"end":6941.596,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":6941.876,"end":6966.549,"text":"很緊張、很怕病、很勤、很病的但是問題大家很辛苦很辛苦的情況之下我覺得討論它的放假其實是很有意義的有人會講特別企業主會講說哎呀這個東西放假之後影響我的生產啊什麼之類可是你看一下啊我們週休二日之後我們GDP還是一直成長啊沒有啊"},{"start":6968.69,"end":6990.904,"text":"反而是什麼?反而是企業主賺的錢沒有把合適的比例分給我們的勞工啊這個是勞工團體要去進一步的爭取的我給各位一個數字歐盟也好日本也好韓國也好GDP分給勞工的都是五成以上了台灣多少?45%"},{"start":6993.53,"end":6995.734,"text":"這幾年來都是45還要到43的咧就等於說企業賺了100塊錢給勞工的只有43塊45塊其他就是老闆拿走了"},{"start":7005.183,"end":7028.249,"text":"這個是造成現在台灣為什麼普遍低薪很重要的原因就是我們的企業家們這個老實講我不好意思用call們來講尤其企業不call們不過很多的企業對勞工還是call們的還是call們的這是第一點我想要強調第二點我想強調的我想強調我有提案我覺得"},{"start":7034.741,"end":7042.846,"text":"我覺得先講我最後才講說放假日的問題先講我們如果國定假日在禮拜二或者禮拜四的時候我們應該要求強制的要彈性休假你可以想啊今天中秋節端午節都是大家我們大家都要團聚嘛要團圓啊"},{"start":7063.679,"end":7088.879,"text":"團圓的時候你卡在一個禮拜四阿禮拜五又上班這是什麼跟什麼所以我們就主動我們就說這裡面就要有機制只要碰到禮拜四或者禮拜二那就要跟他談心休假談心休假什麼意思呢禮拜二就禮拜一放假這樣就連起來了禮拜四的話就禮拜五放假阿禮拜五就掉班這個不要好像要仰賴這個政府阿他的 mercy"},{"start":7095.949,"end":7103.175,"text":"臺北新最棒這是我第二點要強調第三點我們看到賴清德總統上台之後他原來是台獨金孫現在呢他到處講中華民國台英文還講中華民國臺灣他叫中華民國就是我們國家中華民國"},{"start":7119.98,"end":7147,"text":"我們樂意見到他真正的擁抱中華民國這是台灣2300萬人的最大的公約書最大的共識而且確保中華民國老實講也可以讓台灣比較安全相對的老共比較不擔心或者擔心少一點所以你搞台獨所以有關於中華民國的相關的節日應該要放假"},{"start":7148.407,"end":7172.029,"text":"我們的國定教育開國紀念日1月1號已經放了但是呢我們的習憲紀念日都沒有放啊各位我們今天我們今天在這裡講了台灣國民主 敦民主啊說台灣的民主自由對抗中國大陸的極權專制統治這些是等等的我都不反對但是請問我們紀念我們的民主是什麼是習憲啊"},{"start":7174.382,"end":7186.447,"text":"如果沒有習憲 台灣會有民主嗎?會有今天這樣子的一個局面嗎?所以習憲紀念日 12月25日應該要列為國定假日這個非常重要另外我覺得大家"},{"start":7190.029,"end":7208.862,"text":"看到我們的勞工朋友們5月1號你不覺得放起來怪怪的嗎有些放假 有些不放假 公務員也不放假公務員如果他的另一半是勞工 勞工放假他的老婆 他的老公不放假接孩子不對 不接孩子不對 怎麼辦五一勞動局全國放假了"},{"start":7213.018,"end":7240.447,"text":"五一勞動節全國放假我諮詢過人事長他講一些五四三都不是理由說什麼總放假日超過多少那個都細節問題要不要我覺得對偉大的勞工的尊重勞工節勞動節五一要全國統一放假不要再分只有勞工啊勞工又分製造業各位現在服務業的員工勞工比例超過六成七成啦你為什麼不給他放假呢"},{"start":7242.406,"end":7252.231,"text":"同樣的我們這個社會這麼樣的尊重老師我們這裡好多教授對不對請問教授局有沒有放棄啊沒有放棄啊"},{"start":7254.189,"end":7278.869,"text":"這是人們的本啊 尊師重道 對不對教師節應該要全國放假 所以我的提案 教師節也要放假一天還有國定的 我剛剛說過了 新鮮紀念日要放假一天等到禮拜二禮拜四 應該強制的 彈性的一個調班休假這才符合民意 也符合現在台灣人民所需要的 謝謝"},{"start":7282.671,"end":7283.611,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7310.899,"end":7312.861,"text":"公聽會113年10月23日．星期三．上午9時至12時．"},{"start":7328.092,"end":7332.536,"text":"今天好像開錯門了今天應該是每個晚餐好好吃一頓八五七一夾"},{"start":7351.232,"end":7352.434,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":7881.548,"end":7883.35,"text":"中華民國全國工業總會理事 何明媛理事"},{"start":7905.505,"end":7933.698,"text":"主席、各位委員、專家、學者以及今日出席的各位大家好我是中華民國工業總會理事何明源就以下幾點跟大家報告中華民國各項紀念日及節日之放假規範涉及全國人民的權利義務關係影響公司部門運作非常的劇烈那紀念日及節日的放假關乎個人的休息工作權益透過法律形式確立放假規範將限期的"},{"start":7935.619,"end":7960.853,"text":"紀念日及節日實施辦法提升至法律未結 產業界基本上是沒有意見予以贊同那另外的想法是現在目前勞工全年總休假天數因為實施週休二日之後已經達到116天那已佔全年總天數的三成以上那如果依照再增加的天數到121天的話已經到達全年度的三分之一"},{"start":7961.773,"end":7988.262,"text":"那製造業當然我們還是要反映一下這個製造業或是企業主的這種成本那以一天價的人力成本來說以各行業的勞保平均投保薪資34415元來說各行業的勞保投保人數約計1039萬人的算法來算的話我們每一日放假的這個成本約計於是119億元"},{"start":7990.276,"end":8006.282,"text":"那如果再加上如果我們需要去補貼這個工作上的加班那可能會達到兩倍甚至更多的情況下那當然這個是企業主該負責的部分那但是因為其實我們還是會考慮到未來的情勢發展"},{"start":8007.362,"end":8030.413,"text":"目前來說其實雖然台灣的股票非常的高檔但是以我們在聽到各行業的出口以及在這個內銷的訂單狀況來說並不像這個股票反應的這麼劇烈這麼好所以我們大家還是會擔心說從111年開始由於受到戰爭或是其他的不景氣的影響那"},{"start":8031.793,"end":8046.391,"text":"以臺灣來說,企業官場歇業的加速有明顯上升加上目前景氣其實還是沒有那麼樂觀以很多的訂單都還是沒有進來的情況下出口還是受到一個很嚴峻的打擊那"},{"start":8047.072,"end":8073.179,"text":"未來的電價跟基本工資相比是已經預計會調漲還有2026年開增的碳稅這個部分也會增加所謂的企業主很劇烈的成本目前在碳稅的部分還沒有一個明朗的方案或規劃之下這個未來可能還是我們需要去考慮的部分"},{"start":8074.059,"end":8100.858,"text":"那想必以剛剛來說增加國定假日應該又會增加企業主的某些支出負擔那希望這些成本不會對於產業造成太大的衝擊但是如果說這樣訂單或是整個經濟情況沒有那麼往上漲的情況下那這些支出可能就會造成某些企業主非常大的困難我想放假每個人都會很開心"},{"start":8102.279,"end":8120.394,"text":"老公跟企業主所要思考的角度當然不一樣每個人會去思考的出發點也不太一樣像我在大學有兼課那我也會覺得說常常會遇到教師節的時候我還要面對學生的狀況那當然我也是會在不同的角度上會考慮到這些不同的原因"},{"start":8121.775,"end":8145.501,"text":"紀念日是否放假是否有教育意義我們以美國為例911紀念日國殤紀念日就是南北戰爭的紀念日還有憲法日珍珠港紀念日這些都是只紀念不放假的聯邦紀念日那為什麼只紀念不放假因為其實在放假對於學生來說他只會記得我這一天放假我明天放假了對於他的"},{"start":8146.501,"end":8173.702,"text":"歷史意義跟他紀念的意涵可能沒有那麼深刻的體會那通常他們的做法就是在當天會有一個課程教育學生為什麼今天是一個紀念意義的日子那他的歷史原因脈絡為什麼要紀念這件事情我想是一個比放假更有意義的內涵那今天的公聽會我想就是從大家各種不同的角度來交換想法並不是讓大家站在"},{"start":8175.163,"end":8175.183,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8198.746,"end":8198.906,"text":"主席"},{"start":8216.644,"end":8239.854,"text":"所有的公司能夠穩定的經營其實大家才會有更好的工作機會那我們剛剛提到的能夠加薪的部分大家能夠把這個企業組的分潤提高的部分才有可能持續下去如果大家很多廠商都倒掉那其實對於整個企業的經營跟臺灣經濟的發展都不是最好的結果那我想希望各位委員跟先進橫頻考量"},{"start":8241.255,"end":8244.257,"text":"我們接下來請政治大學勞工研究所教授劉梅君教授"},{"start":8274.345,"end":8301.863,"text":"主席以及各位關心這個議題的所有的夥伴大家早安我也先講我的結論我完全支持增加放假日為什麼呢大家除非我們不認為我們今天台灣是進步國家如果我們覺得我們是進步國家那麼進步國家二十幾天三十幾天的這個放假日我們跟人家真的落差太大了這是第一個第二個剛剛賴委員也說了說台灣是過勞之島這大家也都承認吧"},{"start":8302.583,"end":8324.171,"text":"在這地方有非常多即使在公部門也都一樣每天工作然後要能夠能不能準時下班都不知道這個過勞這件事情也是談得非常久有非常多的文章然後這個國際組織的這個算出來的台灣的每一年的這個工時也長的剛大家都說了嘛就非常的長"},{"start":8325.071,"end":8325.211,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8341.238,"end":8366.827,"text":"第一件事情我要來談的就是紀念日跟這個節日它其實是有特殊意義的我們一定要重視這個特殊意義就是給更多的放假日它不只是讓任何一個人然後用那個假日去做任何的這個去做什麼事情它其實背後是一個主控權時間自由運用的一個主控權其實這是一個公民社會成熟公民社會的一個基礎非常重要的一個基礎第二個就是"},{"start":8369.028,"end":8392.215,"text":"臺灣的僱主團體要能夠成長能夠進步因為你與其要工人work longer你還不如讓他work smarter這個聰明的工作永遠比這個長工時的工作是更有利的因為他的影響其實是非常非常大我想這是"},{"start":8395.18,"end":8416.749,"text":"臺灣走到今天是有一個成熟的公民社會成熟的公民社會必須是這些公民有時間關心公共事務參與公共事務整個國家在政策上面才會有進步的空間這是第一件事情第二件事情就談到這個我也贊成目前的紀念日或假日它能夠提升法律的位階"},{"start":8417.569,"end":8423.931,"text":"紀念日及節日的確具有特殊意義的重要性我們必須要重視紀念日及節日的確有尊重傳統文化"},{"start":8434.255,"end":8434.435,"text":"國際節日實施條例"},{"start":8455.445,"end":8480.663,"text":"如果不是放假至少他是一個紀念日這是第二件事情第三件事情就是我們也希望這個國定假日他有更大的包容性以及但是呢包容性更大但是有這個適用範圍有這個適用範圍那有一些是全國適用的那有些是地方適用或是宗教適用或是族群適用也許他可能是紀念不一定放假可是到底是他"},{"start":8481.663,"end":8503.317,"text":"記事紀念又是放假可能大家要共同來討論那第一個我認為應該要全國適用放假的第一個就是那個勞動節我們剛剛也很多人都提到了勞動節只有這個有勞基法適用的人才適用我們在公部門的其實我不是公務人員在學校教書我們也都沒有"},{"start":8503.677,"end":8514.65,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":8515.031,"end":8541.818,"text":"我即使是當老師我還是受固執啊我哪一天如果學校不要我都表現不佳了他一樣把我fire掉啊不是這樣嗎所以他沒有道理因為我的身份不是這個勞基法適用的所以他就不適用啊就不能放假第二個就是那個教師節這的確也是很奇妙的一件事情那我每次教師節的時候還要上課的時候我都覺得很心酸啊對那當然還有一些節日我也覺得是"},{"start":8543.599,"end":8565.081,"text":"我剛剛那個賴委員有特別談到了就是如果假 節日是在禮拜二或是禮拜四的時候他主張是就是前一天就要放了我們在上課的時候也發現這個問題很大好像今年的是不是中秋節還是哪一個節對對對然後就有學生跟我的課在禮拜一嗎就跟我請假了那你說這個他請這個假你要給不給啊"},{"start":8566.374,"end":8591.466,"text":"不給不通人請啊對不對因為剛好前面又是禮拜六禮拜天他可能就回家去了嘛所以像這樣來請我都全部放我都全部給這樣的問題是在課堂上就的確是可能有幾次上課他就沒有辦法這個聽到所以我就覺得這是很奇怪所以我也跟賴委員一樣如果是二市的時候節日在二市的時候這個放假日在二市的時候那禮拜一跟禮拜五其實應該要彈性調整"},{"start":8593.227,"end":8593.668,"text":"《紀念日實施條例》"},{"start":8609.225,"end":8609.466,"text":"中文字幕 李慧琼"},{"start":8629.046,"end":8629.948,"text":"中華民國國定假日"},{"start":8646.61,"end":8650.253,"text":"或是光復節 台灣從日本手上再回頭來 結果我們也不承認這件事情 難道我們是日本的什麼什麼嗎"},{"start":8672.95,"end":8673.41,"text":"中文字幕 李慧琼"},{"start":8704.511,"end":8727.81,"text":"台灣其實長工時這種過勞的狀況非常嚴重這其實也不利於脂肪如果你每一天都這樣子然後疲憊的不得了然後你隔天要再去公司工廠去工作的時候你的工作效率是不會是很好的或是這個國際上的非常多的文獻也看出來了如果你每天的工作時間是長過這個8個小時10個小時12個小時它的效率會遞減"},{"start":8729.531,"end":8754.098,"text":"對於這個企業經營絕對不是好事情那就更不要講說臺灣我們現在也看到好臺灣有非常多的就是大概55歲以後就提早退休了為什麼會提早退休因為身心負荷不了身心負荷不了那這其實對很多這個企業來講他恰恰好是這個企業已經是mature非常成熟的這個資深的這樣的一個員工結果他因為身心負荷不了"},{"start":8754.458,"end":8755.219,"text":"中華民國全國總工會秘書長 溫宗裕秘書長"},{"start":8782.793,"end":8783.053,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8794.213,"end":8822.707,"text":"我是中華民國全國總統會秘書長 文總宇首先感謝我們的徐信義委員主動來召開這次的公聽會讓我們除了可以聽聽勞方意見之外勞方也可以聽聽資方的意見然後有一個溝通的平台這邊全總 因為在我應該算是勞工代表比較後面幾個可以講的所以說大部分的內容其實我們前面的幾位勞工的前輩都已經提到這邊就不再多講"},{"start":8823.527,"end":8850.758,"text":"全種的立場上也是支持所有在場勞工代表的立場跟訴求也是一樣是希望能夠增加勞工的國定假日就最少要恢復到7天那少掉那7天一定要恢復那另外一個其實也感謝我們所有在場每一位其實我們現在在這個公聽會我們為的都不是自己都是為了我們為了大家為了下一代所以我們都努力在做而且都花費很多時間"},{"start":8853.099,"end":8869.787,"text":"全總這邊除了第一個是增加所有勞工的國定假日至少回復7天之外另外一個就是還要全國一致性的放假不能說有些人放有些人沒放尤其是剛剛那個劉教授有提到說就是關於教師的部分其實教師他們五一勞動節應該也是要放假因為這還牽涉到"},{"start":8874.65,"end":8876.352,"text":"主要有這兩個訴求那另外關於前面有幾個前面也提到說關於假日會不會影響到經濟發展其實"},{"start":8892.349,"end":8919.897,"text":"多放假會不會影響到經濟發展其實我們可以觀察其他先進國家他們放假的天數比我們多他們的薪水比我們高但是他們競爭力也是比我們強所以說你說用那個什麼我們要提升競爭力的方法絕對不是用增加工時來提升競爭力這是我們的訴求那另外我們增加假日呢其實增加假日如果說我們尤其是廉價的部分你增加廉價其實大家可以觀察到一件事情就是說大家流動會高"},{"start":8920.657,"end":8920.677,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8937.385,"end":8963.598,"text":"所以除此之外我們有大致上看過這個所有的那個委員提案的內容主要是在裡面最大的差別是在於說我們要決定哪些價該放所以全總這邊中華民國全國總會是我們台灣歷史最悠久的公會那也下面有42個會員公會那我們會員人數也佔了全台灣勞工加入公會人數的一半以上所以我們就趕快緊急做了一個調查那個調查的問卷"},{"start":8964.979,"end":8977.967,"text":"那個結果就在上面目前的調查還在持續當中那目前已經收集到最新的數據是已經收集到500份的問卷那我們可以看到說我們主要填寫問卷的人都是男生比女生多然後我們再往下一點就是關於"},{"start":8981.879,"end":9001.178,"text":"年齡區間的話因為工會年齡層都會比較大一點所以關於20到30歲這個區間的數據我們比較難以收集這個部分可能另外要請政府這邊多聽聽年輕人的聲音那其實我們大部分都在30歲以上所以30歲以上的族群分佈其實蠻平均的都大概落在20%、30%左右"},{"start":9003.881,"end":9016.759,"text":"關於他們的薪資收入其實都蠻平均的我們設定一個Range最少是從明年的基本工資往上來看我們再往下一點就是關於"},{"start":9018.155,"end":9047.086,"text":"關於那個我們把所有委員提案還有一些價別把它列上去去做初步的調查我們歸類出來就是大家覺得最應該放的前幾名第一個就是小年夜再來就是勞動節再來就是元宵節再來就是元旦隔日還有臺灣光復節還有中元節然後比較特別的是聖誕節也是在前十名以內那聖誕節相對來講就是我們的也是形現紀念日我覺得這個也是可以去考慮來放假的"},{"start":9047.591,"end":9073.566,"text":"然後另外一個有趣的就是 下一個就是父親節我們相信因為填寫問卷男生比女生多 對父親節的比例稍微高了一點所以 但接在父親節後面就是母親節了所以這個是我們做過 對於我們42個會員工會的所有會員去做過一個初步調查那大部分填寫這份問卷的人都是我們工會的成員那只有少部分大概1%左右是非工會成員 但是他們是勞工"},{"start":9075.083,"end":9076.91,"text":"那再來我們再往下一個就是說"},{"start":9079.729,"end":9105.947,"text":"其實我們有特別問了大家就是關於我們現在10天的國定假日裡面你覺得哪些是需要紀念而不放假的那當然大家都希望能夠多放假但是我們可以觀察一個比較特殊的情況就是說特別有選出來就是228和平紀念日只紀念不放假的會稍微多一點然後再來就是兒童節因為我們現在有父幼節然後兒童節放假但父母沒放假那家長有一些接送問題那一些可能要考慮進去的"},{"start":9106.907,"end":9131.909,"text":"最主要就是這三個假期三個結果那我們再往下一點就是說你贊不贊成我們如果說禮拜二跟禮拜四用放假那一跟五用補休補課的方式是否贊成那我們現在目前其實上面的數據看起來是很接近的但是如果以我們現在目前目前來看的話如果說以500分文件來看的話贊成"},{"start":9133.452,"end":9133.733,"text":"主席"},{"start":9145.24,"end":9171.687,"text":"第四個問題是關於我們因為前陣子關於週休三天的問題我們特別利用這份問卷稍微做了一個調查其實勞工部分也是贊成週休三天的會比較多我們設定問題上的前提是把國定假日都取消但是我們週休三天支持的人比反對的人目前看起來是還要多當然有一些特殊意見是覺得說可以週休三日但是春節"},{"start":9172.987,"end":9173.167,"text":"主席"},{"start":9201.937,"end":9208.503,"text":"好接下來我們請民傳大學法律系教授兼法學院院長劉世豪院長"},{"start":9228.437,"end":9247.469,"text":"主席還有各位委員以及各位在場的先進各位女士各位先生大家早安非常高興也非常榮幸受我們大院的邀請來這邊提供有關於紀念日及節日實施條例草案的公聽會提供意見"},{"start":9249.101,"end":9272.057,"text":"基本上我對於大院那麼多的委員關心這個議題把它提升作為一個法制的一個位階我基本上是非常欽佩因為紀念日跟節日的實施不僅對公部門跟學校有影響對私部門工作的人民也會發生權利義務的關係的直接影響"},{"start":9273.258,"end":9290.018,"text":"按照我們法律當中中央法規標準法第5條第二項的規定如果是涉及人民權利的一個法律來講的話要嘛就必須要有法律的授權比如說我們勞動基準法很多規定說由施行細則來做定義或規範"},{"start":9291.24,"end":9315.417,"text":"那麼我目前的這個紀念日跟節日的實施辦法它並沒有明確的法源那而且它涉及的很廣泛全國人民來都適用所以基本上把它定位為法律的位階來講的話我樂見其成特別在這個討論時間當中把過去有些節日跟假日忽略的"},{"start":9316.258,"end":9328.617,"text":"或是我們覺得應該去做調整的根據我們國家的核心價值還有我們的文化、歷史甚至於宗教、民俗的傳統"},{"start":9330.015,"end":9358.917,"text":"都可以一併的做考量所以基本上我非常欽佩大院那麼多委員提出了七組不同的一個案件都表示大家對這個議題非常關心也仿照像美國、日本、德國跟英國他們都用立法的方式來建立所謂的法律的一個制度來確立國定假日的一個規範那麼我們以德國為例"},{"start":9360.694,"end":9371.092,"text":"德國的聯邦以及各邦對紀念日跟節日都有立法權目前德國全國放假的國定假日當中有9天"},{"start":9372.239,"end":9400.687,"text":"如果是在天主教多數居民的各邦他通常就有比較多的一個宗教性的節日比如說我們常常看到最近開始有啤酒節了那麼是德國主角喝啤酒就是在這巴伐利亞邦那麼德國聯邦的9天假日外巴伐利亞邦他還有另外多出4天的宗教日所以如果巴伐利亞邦來講的話他的國庭假日總共有12天"},{"start":9402.086,"end":9427.925,"text":"其中有一個城市叫奧格斯堡市多出了一天叫瑪莉亞生天日這個城市就13天的一個國定假日假日來講的話我們可以用這個表給各位做參考像元旦、主顯日、耶穌受難日、復活節的星期一還有國際勞動日5月1號這些都屬於聯邦的假期"},{"start":9428.726,"end":9448.751,"text":"耶穌升天日是法法利亞邦特有的聖靈的降臨節是聯邦的聖體節是法法利亞邦獨有的瑪利亞升天日這是奧克斯堡市特有的德國統一日是聯邦的國定假日萬聖節是法法利亞邦"},{"start":9450.191,"end":9471.663,"text":"聖誕日也就是12月25日跟隔一天都是聯邦的放假日期所以德國全德都放假的國定假日有9天那麼各邦以巴伐利亞邦來講他多了3天的假期那奧格斯堡來講的話再多一天的瑪利亞生天日"},{"start":9472.971,"end":9498.111,"text":"如果今天我們大院通過了這個紀念日跟節日的辦法提升為法律位階那我們現行的勞動基準法37條就可能必須要做調整修正目前的文字是內政部所定應方價之紀念日、節日、勞動節日那這個時候就會變成必須要依照我們所定出來的紀念日及節日條例"},{"start":9499.993,"end":9521.234,"text":"其他中央主管機關因指令放假之日是比如說根據我們的選罷法在選舉罷免或複決等期間當中那天的日子來講通常也是放假所以由勞動部來講會發布那天也是所謂的假日那就不用出勤但是工資來講的話是繼續照付"},{"start":9523.556,"end":9550.83,"text":"那麼現行勞動基準法規範當中總共有12天的假期我想我就不多說了但是我們原來剛剛有許多工會的先進提到說有7天假那麼這個7天假在早期的時候有放那麼後來經過不斷的修法之後一下放回去一下就拿出來總共有7天的假期是哪7天呢第一個就是元旦的1日也就是1月2號"},{"start":9552.231,"end":9570.88,"text":"還有就是革命先烈紀念日 以前我們也稱叫青年節還有就是孔子誕辰紀念日 又稱教師節還有就是台灣光復節 先總統蔣公誕辰紀念日 國父誕辰紀念日以及剛剛許多委員跟先進所提到的行縣紀念日這7天"},{"start":9571.94,"end":9597.237,"text":"不過我必須要還原一下這7天來來往往的過程當中是為什麼會有這樣的一個情形首先我們有19天假定在我們的施行細則當中的23條首先開始的是在民國86年6月12號修正勞動基準法施行細則的時候確定了有總共有19天的休假"},{"start":9599.826,"end":9620.897,"text":"當時的例假日有52天當時沒有所謂休息日特別休假我舉例當然特別休假規定很多如果一個勞工他工作兩年以上未滿三年的情況之下他就是有七天休假所以在民國86年的時候帶薪的休假日總共有78天"},{"start":9623.032,"end":9649.694,"text":"到了91年民進黨第一次執政的時候那麼希望把工時下降所以從本來一週工作48小時調整為每兩週工作84小時當時來講的話例假日仍然是維持52天國定假日19天特別休假也沒有變所以當時來講的話帶薪的休假日仍然維持78天"},{"start":9651.315,"end":9676.431,"text":"到了104年12月9日當時修法的時候仍然是維持52天立假日但是把當時的國定假日修改了變成12天再加上民國100年的原住民稅時記憶所以當時來講雖然工時下降了但是我們所謂的代薪休假只剩下71天再加上原住民的稅時記憶"},{"start":9678.132,"end":9699.82,"text":"到了105年是民進黨執政了民進黨馬上把特別休假回復到 抱歉把國定休假回復到變成19天也就是還了勞工7天的休假但是到了106年的12月21號也就是俗稱的一例一休因為多了52天的休息日"},{"start":9700.66,"end":9723.359,"text":"所以這9天來講配合公部門跟私部門它就比照內政部所頒布的這個節日紀念日的實施辦法所以就變成12天再加上特別休假提升之後算出來它有126天加上原住民的睡時機那麼所以說基本上來講它的還原過程是這樣"},{"start":9724.591,"end":9741.159,"text":"那麼我們比照跟德國來講的話大家都說德國的勞動制度非常好那麼我來講我們台灣目前現行的勞動基準法的勞動條件並不會屬於德國比如說我舉例例假日"},{"start":9742.179,"end":9766.333,"text":"台灣跟德國都是7天放1天但是德國的例假日星期天原則上他是沒有薪水的沒有薪水必須透過團體學約定之後才有可能增加這個薪水休息日德國他也有休息日但是德國原則上就是沒有薪水那麼團體學通常也不會簽在休息日的時候有薪水"},{"start":9767.43,"end":9789.063,"text":"國定假日德國跟台灣都一樣僱主都必須要照給工資特別休假沒有錯德國的規定比我們台灣稍微好一點出任這個勞工的話他做了6個月之後他就有20天的休假如果他每一個禮拜是工作6天的話他就是有24天的休假"},{"start":9790.323,"end":9811.413,"text":"如果我們整個平均起來工作滿兩年未滿三年者在台灣來講待薪休假時間總共有126天再加上歲時記憶而德國來講的話只有32天除非團體學有簽訂星期天有待薪的話才有82天的待薪休假我只是還原各"},{"start":9812.553,"end":9827.765,"text":"總制度的起源與發展也比較了跟德國的制度以上提供給各位做參考 謝謝接下來請武力華委員"},{"start":9841.007,"end":9852.467,"text":"主席與會的各界代表大家早安我這一次自己有提案版本那我利用時間簡單的跟各位做一個報告說明"},{"start":9853.462,"end":9858.304,"text":"紀念日及節日實施法 修正名稱國家紀念日及節日實施法 內容部分納入多元價值及人權的一個肯認"},{"start":9873.63,"end":9892.961,"text":"因此在這個部分我舉個例子像大家近年已經熟知的8月1號叫做原住民族日但是卻從來沒有正式的文字在我們的這個辦法當中因此這一次藉著新增多元文化肯認紀念日"},{"start":9894.082,"end":9902.25,"text":"全國客家日、世界母語日、國際移民日、或者是勞動權益日、言論自由日、環境日、解嚴紀念日、臺灣女權日、世界人權日等等。"},{"start":9917.486,"end":9918.627,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":9937.229,"end":9937.269,"text":"主席"},{"start":9953.843,"end":9980.777,"text":"那麼既然教師有那什麼都要有齁那我覺得這個部分可以提供大家來做討論不過我至少我認為現行的所謂的五一勞動節的放假齁其實光是在我們立法院我們就看到其實呢有這樣的一個美意可是往往卻沒有辦法落實因為現實是沒有辦法大家一同放假"},{"start":9981.517,"end":9982.458,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":10007.898,"end":10007.938,"text":"主席"},{"start":10026.081,"end":10052.756,"text":"因為我們都聽過我們現在要邁入所謂的族群主流化在前些年我們的原住民族教育法已經修法將過去的實施對象原住民我們已經改為全體國民這就是族群主流化在法律裡面的具體實現同樣的今天在我們的這一步法我也希望能夠去落實族群主流化的概念"},{"start":10053.456,"end":10053.656,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10070.071,"end":10070.331,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":10087.222,"end":10087.562,"text":"紀念日及節日實施條例"},{"start":10107.762,"end":10133.001,"text":"我們放假就是為了大家能夠回去傳承語言文化凝聚部落的一個情感但是過去這樣的一個一天造成違德不足政策的美意沒有辦法落實所以我特別希望透過這次的修法也能夠得到各界各黨派的一個支持能夠讓我們的原住民族碎石記憶架"},{"start":10133.962,"end":10134.782,"text":"機車商業同業公會全聯會監事召集人馬金惠"},{"start":10171.057,"end":10197.933,"text":"各位大家好我是高雄我為在計策業服務今天因為有受到勞工局的邀請說我們這邊要開一個例假日的公聽會所以說我代表我們計策業來向各位立法委員各位記者先生各位教授提出我自己的看法"},{"start":10199.246,"end":10225.398,"text":"因為我三天前才借到這個東西所以說要做順便以我的資歷是比較沒有辦法所以說我用我口頭剛才聽了這麼多老師啊教授的一些要求甚至於我要來這邊的時候我在車站我在我們的理事長裡面說現在要討論立假日你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":10227.034,"end":10247.858,"text":"剛才我來這邊的時候在等計程車的時候有兩個小姐說你要去哪裡我說我要去立法院你要去立法院幹什麼我要去談論那個立假日的公聽會也說為什麼還要談立假日現在假日都那麼多了這個顯現一個問題點剛才聽到的大家都喜歡爭取一個假日的"},{"start":10256.161,"end":10280.39,"text":"講明白一點是那個頭頭啊那個什麼教師傑啊什麼傑我的個人我也很喜歡放假講明白一點啦放假對人可以安排自己的生活那是很好的可是我是老闆喔我也很喜歡放假這個可是放假要有一個問題點就是剛才有很多寫者講到的成本是一個成本概念"},{"start":10281.533,"end":10288.473,"text":"今天台灣 如果今天台灣沒有台積電撐起這些日子 我們股市不會好"},{"start":10289.619,"end":10314.757,"text":"今天台灣會好,只有半陶體會好一點而已所以大家看到改變了以後,一律修改變了以後台灣沒有改變什麼可是我的了解是每個國家都有一定的產業輸出每個國家都可以賣金屬武器我們台灣能賣什麼東西現在只有台積電半陶體才可以賣而已"},{"start":10316.104,"end":10334.81,"text":"現在台灣的競爭力我不敢說我們甚至我自己都在努力付出我們的勞力為了台灣的經濟因為我們有很多客人上班上完還要跑外送所以我今天大家要爭取一個"},{"start":10336.147,"end":10364.892,"text":"休假的日子我都很贊同可是後面的經濟實力在哪裡我們的經濟要靠什麼講明白一點我們的勞力也是那個爭取人家來我們這邊投資產生我們的效率的一種應該大家有聽到嘛西或者南進他們為了什麼會吸引很多工廠會到那邊也是勞工"},{"start":10365.987,"end":10385.1,"text":"今天我們要漲薪水我們還要休假是可以談是怎麼樣談所以說我感覺是說假日每個人都喜歡可是現在的假日很多人都還是要加班還是要被換覺那也是不公平的地方我也很了解"},{"start":10386.408,"end":10404.427,"text":"講明白一點今天的社會就是這樣希望我們的立法院委員我們各界的先進調整價值是可以的可是要放了我看起來如果照今天這樣過去的話要多放十幾天假的話我看起來是應該要從長計議啦所以說"},{"start":10409.008,"end":10432.341,"text":"我為了摩托車界 我也是技術服務業我沒有服務 騎摩托車的人會很痛苦我們給我們服務的客戶 都是最底層的要上班 要加班 要上學 送小孩子的很多人說 你沒摩托車業 我就不去啊 我就不去點啊我說我不是欸"},{"start":10433.715,"end":10457.8,"text":"我們現在是機車醫生也是地方的特體工因為現在所有的百姓他們的心聲在我們摩托車界裡面聽到最多政府好不好 你的法律做得棒不棒你的執行過程有沒有受到侵犯到百姓的心聲或者他們的辛苦我們都會了解"},{"start":10459.363,"end":10487.262,"text":"我也要報告各位我會管理過公司我們上個月的實施辦法到下個月我一直給我們公司的經理講你已經做很習慣的一個月的資料下個月要改是你沒訂定價格的人訂定下個月的人你有討論過才知道實施使用者的人你要追到10天至1個禮拜才會了解下個月要幹什麼"},{"start":10488.8,"end":10490.363,"text":"所以說我為什麼講這樣我們立法絕對會牽動很多產業的不是只有成本而已"},{"start":10497.987,"end":10516.803,"text":"所以說希望大家能夠平心靜氣不是一味的要休假休假休假所以說今天我們看到很多資料公聽會為什麼辦了這麼多次為什麼我們的假日還訂不下來就是牽扯了很多感謝各位給我這個機會我們是一個"},{"start":10519.845,"end":10522.248,"text":"全國自主勞工聯盟會長詹素貞會長"},{"start":10552.065,"end":10571.525,"text":"主席、我們各位委員還有各位先進、大家午安很高興受主席的邀約來表達我們全國勞工的訴求那我們先講國定假日我們確定是要增加希望大家能夠支持勞動節、婦女節、教師節希望全國要統一放假"},{"start":10572.867,"end":10586.223,"text":"我代表全國自主勞工聯盟來發言勞工要的是實質的縮短工時立法院推動增加國定假日的天數相信我們基層勞工他都是樂見其成"},{"start":10588.606,"end":10602.825,"text":"107年《勞動基準法》修二把勞工的國定假日由19天減掉剩下12天公會團體一直在爭取要恢復7天的國假這次的立法委員主動"},{"start":10606.38,"end":10607.181,"text":"國定假日天數"},{"start":10623.75,"end":10650.378,"text":"具體要增加幾天的國假呢?綜合各版本的考慮不論是原住民的立委和民進黨要彰顯族群文化的多元性或者是國民黨立委主張列入紀念國家歷史的重大事件草野各黨主張的日期都有道理我認為不妨綜合各黨的主張爭取將國定假日增加到21天"},{"start":10651.699,"end":10654.714,"text":"不要以為21天太多其實勞工原本就有19天"},{"start":10656.889,"end":10656.909,"text":"國際婦女節"},{"start":10685.851,"end":10702.727,"text":"合併到4月4日的兒童節而且改稱為婦幼節只有放假一天其實是強化了只有女性好像應該要照顧家庭的這個刻板印象在內政部恢復只有兒童節放假之後婦女節反而消失了"},{"start":10703.548,"end":10728.65,"text":"五一國際勞動節和三八國際婦女節都是勞工爭取勞動條件犧牲生命流血流汗才創立的紀念日而且政府不是一向極為重視性別平等嗎那麼我主張這個婦女節應該恢復全國放假另外有多個法案版本將春節的放假由三天增加為四天我們認為"},{"start":10730.751,"end":10734.294,"text":"公會也是繼續支持那過去春節連假7天是透過勞工調休補班造成許多困擾那麼透過此次的立法將問題希望能夠一併解決不要讓基層勞工覺得政府為德不足另外我這邊也要補充"},{"start":10750.683,"end":10763.718,"text":"根據現行的紀念日及節日實施的辦法將紀念日及節日分為紀念日、民俗、節日和節日三種紀念日當然是跟國家重大事件相關的或者彰顯對國家社會有貢獻"},{"start":10766.543,"end":10793.276,"text":"紀念意義的節日民俗節日則是民眾根據文化風俗過的節日節日就根據社會發展或各族群設置的節日那麼我在這邊說如果僱主願意放假勞工可以獲得休假如果願意如果僱主需要勞工在當天工作勞工也可以增加收入而且目前國際上許多正在談週休三日"},{"start":10794.156,"end":10797.379,"text":"紀念日及節日實施條例草案公聽會113年10月23日．星期三．上午9時．星期三．"},{"start":10816.28,"end":10825.965,"text":"老公朋友們他遇到這個國定假日遇到紅字他就算加班費兩倍那麼兩倍的話7天的國假就14天那乘以我們的日薪1000元再乘以我們號稱臺灣的勞工有1000萬的勞工算算起來這7天的國假等於"},{"start":10840.819,"end":10865.618,"text":"現在我們的勞工少增加收入多少1400億的收入請問我們在座的主公朋友們我們的勞工也是消費者也是顧客他可以刺激我們的經濟的發展是不是可以造就各行各業的這個蓬勃的一些我們講成長好了所以我們也希望說在現階段我們的立法院能夠"},{"start":10867.099,"end":10867.44,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":10902.652,"end":10921.327,"text":"好 謝謝主席那各位與會的官員還有專家學者們大家午安今天公聽會的主題其實是由本院幾位同仁他們有提出相關的修法條文那目前我雖然沒有提案可是我還是想要來分享一些重要的概念希望後續在寫相關的法案的時候可以作為相關的參考"},{"start":10922.248,"end":10940.829,"text":"第1個相關主題在之前的司法委員會就已經安排過但是從上一次到這一次其實大家都沒有提出我等一下要談的英國的Bank Holiday或者是美國日本的Happy Monday那我們來看一下先不管增加幾天我想要先分享一個很重要的概念"},{"start":10941.77,"end":10942.39,"text":"公聽會113年10月23日．星期三．上午9時．上午9時"},{"start":10960.739,"end":10977.695,"text":"創造出連休三天的可能性這個在台灣大家非常熟悉可是呢他們其實是入法的所以我們可以參考英國的網站在2025年他們就會有五個國定假日是透過三連休的方法設計的接下來看美國的部分"},{"start":10978.7,"end":10991.798,"text":"美國在1968年就以立法的方法設計了把紀念日挪移到禮拜一放假一樣創造出三連休美國目前也是有五個假日是固定以週一來做設定"},{"start":10993.76,"end":11022.378,"text":"那到日本我們最熟悉的臨近的國家亞洲國家他們是在1998年修正了國民住日相關法律把原本是固定日期的成人之日體育之日移到星期一到了2001年再次修正國民住日法把海之日敬老之日移到禮拜一所以日本目前有四個國民住日也就是國定的假日是改到快樂星期一來連休的"},{"start":11023.078,"end":11051.751,"text":"大家一定很好奇為什麼要談這個我想要把這樣的概念放到台灣來看以日本為例日本上個禮拜剛剛結束三年休是他們的國民體育日大家可以看到我們頭影片上有非常多可愛的海報而這個海報大家應該可以看見他們是以孩子為主體來設定國民體育日的所有活動那台灣跟日本一樣都有少子化的問題那我們來看一看台灣目前呢"},{"start":11052.878,"end":11053.098,"text":"國體法9月9日是國民體育日"},{"start":11069.195,"end":11070.397,"text":"國體法在台灣目前運作模式是什麼呢?"},{"start":11084.175,"end":11085.236,"text":"一路看下來,我們台灣到底可以怎麼做呢?"},{"start":11106.597,"end":11124.814,"text":"前面台灣的照片全部都是演唱會或是官員排排站我們來看一下這是我的助理在前一陣子自己到日本自費考察他們的國民體育日當天日本的國訓中心這些畫面大家看到很多人在運動大家想說國訓中心嗎這很正常我們來看下一頁"},{"start":11125.775,"end":11139.514,"text":"這是當地的運動公園大家可以看到因為有三連休的制度所以如果爸爸媽媽要帶著孩子一起參加社區運動公園的運動或者是很多就近的學校辦的體育活動或者是社區的體育館運動公園 點點點點"},{"start":11142.077,"end":11147.601,"text":"全國、全日本上下都可以看得見大家共同積極為孩子或者是為長者設計適合體驗運動的樂趣甚至讓孩子有機會在這個三連休假期當中跟爸爸媽媽透過運動培養情感大家還包含右上角還有那個"},{"start":11162.871,"end":11163.252,"text":"國民體育日國定假日化"},{"start":11187.433,"end":11187.753,"text":"賴慧祥委員"},{"start":11216.541,"end":11242.518,"text":"謝謝主席以及今天在場的各位學者專家還有我們的同事同仁們大家好今天是紀念日跟節日實施條例的公聽會有媒體說這是大放假時代的來臨但是我覺得這個題目涉及到勞動、經濟、家庭等多重面向所以我覺得放假這件事不能單一的層面去考量要是想到怎麼樣平衡勞工的休假權益和產業的競爭力"},{"start":11246.14,"end":11273.13,"text":"2016年勞動部在勞基法修法將工時由雙週84小時改為單週40小時政府已砍掉7天假作為降低工時的配套措施當時最大的爭議其實就是降低法定工時跟砍假應該是兩件事情但是勞動部卻便宜行事直接用砍假的方式來處理所以說如果這7天假不砍的話對企業來說就是要讓勞工放假"},{"start":11273.59,"end":11273.75,"text":"主席"},{"start":11299.161,"end":11322.129,"text":"我國另外一個角度就是我國是個高工時國家整體的工時過長比如說我們這個勞動部也才這個調查結果就是我們一年的工時是超過2000個小時是遠高於我們勞工一年的工時是遠超過2000個小時遠高於日本和韓國所以總體的工時過長也危害了我們勞工整體的均衡生活"},{"start":11322.509,"end":11344.39,"text":"所以透過這樣節日的調整或者是直接增加其他還有其他的方式當然節日調整就是今天主要的目標主要的方式和手段還有當然還有其他什麼彈性工時或是增加特休或其他假日我覺得這都是應該是要去討論的方向所以當然透過今天的這個節日的調整也是我們今天主要的目的以我國的產業倍比來說"},{"start":11346.472,"end":11363.567,"text":"服務業從民國98年的5成8成長到今年的6成多那工業大概佔3成5所以從經濟學經濟的角度來看放假日如果增加相對於帶動我國的內需產業也是會有助益的所以長期來看增加假日是可以引發一個產業結構的假日經濟學"},{"start":11365.709,"end":11393.457,"text":"那對於我國的這個產業過度集中在某些特定產業也是有分散的作用所以我認為這是必須要好好考量的所以因此我也要呼籲包含五一勞動節、婦女節、教師節這些應該就是要統一放假降低大家的生活困擾之外我們也比較具體來講我們當然希望就是可以甚至是回復所有期間假然後甚至增加這個兩天假但具體來講我認為這個行限紀念日也是一個很重要的假日經濟學"},{"start":11394.417,"end":11394.617,"text":"圖權及委員"},{"start":11433.936,"end":11460.015,"text":"好 謝謝主席那各位學者、專家、委員、召委還有大家好五一勞動節一國多姿的亂象該結束了那全集每每行走基層每次碰到五一勞動節的時候基層的家長、老師甚至教保員抱怨聲連連同一天卻發現多種出勤制度的亂象干擾了我們社會生活作息"},{"start":11460.876,"end":11487.642,"text":"那五一勞動節的放假有多亂全國千萬適用勞基法的受僱勞工依法放假但是教師公務人員包含立委等七類受僱人員卻無法放假一國多製困擾基層哪怕是同一個公立幼兒園內教師為軍公教人員教保員為適用勞基法的受僱勞工教師不放教保員放"},{"start":11488.622,"end":11503.561,"text":"現在不僅一國多智而且是議員多智而且在立法院國會助理適用勞動勞基法應該放假但是公家部門照常上班在五一勞動節當天全國勞工放假"},{"start":11504.082,"end":11532.921,"text":"那像我們衛黃委員會還要照常來開會現在不管不僅是一國多製而且一院也多製那本席也非常感謝我們徐欣盈召委在今天立法院來內政委員會召開紀念日及節日實施條例草案的公聽會畢竟面對問題才能解決問題國會要對主流民意積極回應更要對行政院的消極不作為的"},{"start":11534.145,"end":11560.991,"text":"進行最有力的監督事實上無論公教人員勞工本職上都是受僱勞動者差異僅僅在於前者受僱於國家政府後者受僱於民間企業但勞動節是普世價值同樣具有受僱者身份的公教人員不應該被排除在放假的行列之外現行的紀念日及節日"},{"start":11563.084,"end":11584.994,"text":"實施辦法僅屬於行政命令的層級照理來說社會各界不分藍綠長期都要求將五一勞動節列為國定價行政院只要願意積極回應即可立即修正據料多年來政府無視民意不斷以各種似是而非的理由推諉"},{"start":11585.934,"end":11614.403,"text":"行政院前院長陳建仁才在去年明確地表示應可考慮是否勞動節全國一致性放假的宣示但迄今持續跳票難道政府親墨所以寡信嗎長久以來臺灣社會因內部內政部一旨的行政命令讓同樣具有政府受僱者身份的公教人員被完全排除在放假"},{"start":11615.143,"end":11615.303,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11638.129,"end":11662.783,"text":"暮宗一世以至於多鬼多智的爭議亂象年年上演我是立法委員徒全吉我支持我們國定假日法制化將五一勞動節定為法定假日這不僅是勞工放假的福利彰顯勞動價值更是全國對受僱勞動者最大的肯定與包養謝謝"},{"start":11667.332,"end":11667.752,"text":"主席"},{"start":11704.273,"end":11707.699,"text":"感謝各位委員還有學者專家以及我們很多與會的機關團體"},{"start":11710.104,"end":11738.133,"text":"今天的一些的寶貴意見那我們大家知道紀念日跟節日它是具有國家歷史的一個發展跟民俗傳承的一個莊嚴意義那我想歷來對於紀念日跟節日的定定徵三名稱那剛一開始的時候也有跟各位報告過那這個過去我們在這個條例的部分也有三次送到立院來那我想因為也是各界的看法還是有大家有很多從各個面向的不同的意見那我玩相關的制度"},{"start":11738.633,"end":11738.933,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11768.345,"end":11768.885,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11786.946,"end":11794.529,"text":"今天非常榮幸有聽到大家很多寶貴的意見大家對於工時比較長的部分對勞動部也是有一些期許我大概也稍微補充一下確實在看OECD的數據的時候應該要把全時的跟部分工時的數據要分開來看"},{"start":11809.475,"end":11830.088,"text":"我稍微也補充一下剛才有先進提到說在那個每週經常性工時的部分的那個數據資料上面其實有提到我們臺灣的部分是41.3小時那我同時也補充一下它沒有列上去的兩個國家一個是日本大概是42.7小時南韓的部分是43.2小時也都略高於臺灣這個我大概做一些補充"},{"start":11837.632,"end":11838.352,"text":"行政院人事總署"},{"start":11866.974,"end":11873.197,"text":"我們想請問各位專家學者以及與會的代表有沒有要第二輪發言的好 如果沒有的話那我們這個非常感謝今天所有專家學者以及與會代表提供的寶貴意見本席要在這邊特別聲明我們紀念日節日的設定或多寡"},{"start":11895.546,"end":11922.437,"text":"不只是表面的影響人民的生活和經濟運作當然它也有更深的層次對於文化歷史的認同、教育、史觀的傳承以至於家庭社會的和諧都有極大的意義和功能我們可以想見這個法案還有漫漫長路等待社會的對話跟溝通但是今天列席部會的報告"},{"start":11923.957,"end":11941.212,"text":"還有剛剛的回應大部分都是還需要凝聚共識有待進一步的討論等等這些推諉的說辭所以本席特別的要請今天所有列席官員請務必把公聽會的討論回去報告給"},{"start":11944.855,"end":11946.016,"text":"各部會該邀集的社會團體、學者、專家該進行的討論趕快進行"},{"start":11963.968,"end":11987.065,"text":"下一次如果大院我們本院審查法案的會議的時候如果你們再用討論當藉口這樣就很難看了所以今天的公聽會是我們再一次檢視我們大家社會上有這些聲音的一個起點我們都還要再努力再溝通更相互的理解所以今天"},{"start":11987.665,"end":12016.172,"text":"公聽會所有列席人員的發言還有提供的書面資料還有高精素美委員有提的書面資料我們除了刊登公報之外我們還會另外製作公聽會的報告送交本院全體的立法委員以及所有初列席人員參考那我再次的在這邊感謝大家的參與我們今天中午有準備便當謝謝大家"},{"start":12018.393,"end":12021.992,"text":"今天的公聽會就到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"155967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6357431ea4ce10da6df28c481b81b387dae99cfeeb60987bc2b0b1194c6a6941375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:40:57 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謝謝主席那各位學者、專家、委員、召委還有大家好五一勞動節一國多姿的亂象該結束了那權吉每每行走基層每次碰到五一勞動節的時候基層的家長、老師甚至教保員抱怨聲連連同一天卻發現多種出勤制度的亂象干擾了我們社會生活作息"},{"start":35.484,"end":62.238,"text":"那五一勞動節的放假有多亂全國千萬適用勞基法的受僱勞工依法放假但是教師公務人員包含立委等七類受僱人員卻無法放假一國多制困擾基層哪怕是同一個公立幼兒園內教師為軍公教人員教保員為適用勞基法的受僱勞工教師不放教保員放"},{"start":63.218,"end":78.152,"text":"現在不僅一國多智而且是議員多智而且在立法院國會助理適用勞動勞基法應該放假但是公家部門照常上班在五一勞動節當天全國勞工放假"},{"start":78.692,"end":107.523,"text":"那像我們胃黃委員會還要照常來開會現在不管不僅是一國多治而且一院也多治那本席也非常感謝我們徐欣盈召委在今天立法院來內政委員會召開紀念日及節日實施條例草案的公聽會畢竟面對問題才能解決問題國會要對主流民意積極回應更要對行政院的消極不作為的"},{"start":108.736,"end":135.598,"text":"進行最有力的監督事實上無論公教人員勞工本職上都是受僱勞動者差異僅僅在於前者受僱於國家政府後者受僱於民間企業但勞動節是普世價值同樣具有受僱者身份的公教人員不應該被排除在放假的行列之外現行的紀念日及節日"},{"start":137.675,"end":159.587,"text":"實施辦法僅屬於行政命令的層級照理來說社會各界不分藍綠長期都要求將五一勞動節列為國定價行政院只要願意積極回應即可立即修正據料多年來政府無視民意不斷以各種似是而非的理由推諉"},{"start":160.527,"end":189.014,"text":"行政院前院長陳建仁才在去年明確地表示應可考慮是否勞動節全國一致性放假的宣示但迄今持續跳票難道政府親墨所以寡信嗎長久以來臺灣社會因內部內政部一旨的行政命令讓同樣具有政府受僱者身份的公教人員被完全排除在放假"},{"start":189.914,"end":211.119,"text":"視用範圍之外此等作為不僅是分化、歧視勞動者也造成政府機關、各級學校每年在5月1日存在著多種出勤制度的亂象嚴重干擾社會生活作息但有權修訂紀念日及節日實施辦法的行政院迄今依舊模擬兩可"},{"start":213.019,"end":237.396,"text":"沐中一世以至於多鬼多智的爭議亂象年年上演我是立法委員涂權吉我支持我們國定假日法制化將五一勞動節定為法定假日這不僅是勞工放假的福利彰顯勞動價值更是全國對受僱勞動者最大的肯定與包養謝謝"},{"start":241.928,"end":241.948,"text":"好 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謝謝主席那各位與會的官員還有專家學者們大家午安今天公聽會的主題其實是由本院幾位同仁他們有提出相關的修法條文那目前我雖然沒有提案可是我還是想要來分享一些重要的概念希望後續在寫相關的法案的時候可以作為相關的參考"},{"start":23.411,"end":41.969,"text":"第一 相關主題在之前的司法委員會就已經安排過但是從上一次到這一次其實大家都沒有提出我等一下要談的英國的Bank Holiday或者是美國日本的Happy Monday那我們來看一下先不管增加幾天我想要先分享一個很重要的概念"},{"start":42.93,"end":43.751,"text":"銀國銀國前殖民地香港公共假日"},{"start":58.192,"end":58.532,"text":"中文字幕組"},{"start":79.844,"end":92.921,"text":"美國在1968年就以立法的方法設計了把紀念日挪移到禮拜一放假一樣創造出三連休美國目前也是有五個假日是固定以週一來做設定"},{"start":94.904,"end":122.697,"text":"那到日本我們最熟悉的臨近的國家亞洲國家他們是在1998年修正了國民住日相關法律把原本是固定日期的成人之日體育之日移到星期一到了2001年再次修正國民住日法把海之日敬老之日移到禮拜一所以日本目前有四個國民住日也就是國定的假日是改到快樂星期一來連休的"},{"start":124.238,"end":124.518,"text":"臺灣目前呢?"},{"start":154.022,"end":154.242,"text":"國體法9月9日是國民體育日"},{"start":170.336,"end":171.557,"text":"國體法在台灣到底目前運作的模式是什麼呢?"},{"start":186.587,"end":187.008,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":207.761,"end":225.957,"text":"前面台灣的照片全部都是演唱會或是官員排排戰我們來看一下這是我的助理在前一陣子自己到日本自費考察他們的國民體育日當天日本的國訓中心這些畫面大家看到很多人在運動大家想說國訓中心嗎這很正常我們來看下一頁"},{"start":226.918,"end":240.654,"text":"這是當地的運動公園大家可以看到因為有三連休的制度所以如果爸爸媽媽要帶著孩子一起參加社區運動公園的運動或者是很多就近的學校辦的體育活動或者是社區的體育館運動公園點點點點"},{"start":243.217,"end":243.277,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":264.034,"end":264.414,"text":"國民體育日加日化"},{"start":288.434,"end":288.835,"text":"全民運動概念"}]}},{"id":"155950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63e6690ac61b05781ef28c481b81b387dae99cfeeb60987bc2d7125908ce8c70c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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許之訴這種情形底下那麼那個律師也有一定的那個"},{"start":2073.889,"end":2077.05,"text":"越卷了解案情的權利另外還有一些相關的例外規範我們都規定在偵查不公開的作為辦法偵查不公開的作為辦法是由本院依照法務部的他們書上面的需求跟他們意見去做規定的"},{"start":2093.676,"end":2103.742,"text":"相關的這些規範跟如何落實如果說各界有一些的意見當然我們司法院也願意願意參照大家的意見進行檢討至於說實務執行面如何落實這部分我們本院也尊重偵查機關跟偵查輔助機關他的實際上面的這個作為那司法院對於落實偵查不公開相關的這個制度的這個言議我們都尊重大院及各外界各界的意見我們會"},{"start":2122.233,"end":2147.606,"text":"做相關的這個檢討以上報告好謝謝那我們現在先確定那個議事錄上次的會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有那我們現在補充介紹我們的羅委員那議事錄確定好那接下來我們請法務部鄭明謙部長報告"},{"start":2153.158,"end":2165.688,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、大家早安今天奉邀列席貴委員會就如何破除偵查大公開以及兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障代表本部列席報告並備質詢"},{"start":2167.233,"end":2194.051,"text":"那為持續精進偵查不公開原則本部機期督導檢查機關落實相關作為那有法制面、行政面和業務面的一個具體說明如下在法制面我們會完備相關法律明確法律責任依照刑事訴訟245條授權規定訂立偵查不公開的一個作為的一個辦法另外我們也制定了法務部加強首屬檢查調查及聯合機關遵守偵查不公開的實施一個方案"},{"start":2194.972,"end":2203.171,"text":"另外我們也是乘計法來就違反偵查不公開作為辦法的法律效果我們做應付的懲戒及懲處的一個責任"},{"start":2205.097,"end":2233.462,"text":"以及追究這個刑事的一個責任另外我們也研修正能保護法將刑法一三二條泄密罪納入適用正能保護法的刑事事件的一個範圍在行政面這部分我們會落實督導持續交易訓練那我們會督導所屬來落實偵查不公開的一個原則另外呢我們也發函處請檢察機關就違反本辦法相關人員的依法的一個一個脫除那我們也喊請司法院協助"},{"start":2234.662,"end":2252.928,"text":"處請所屬注意相關裁定如涉及偵查程序內容所的新證使不予公開另外為了要增進發言人之智能本部定期辦理教育訓練因為深植偵查不公開原則之觀念本部會要求檢察機關應定期舉辦內部教育訓練"},{"start":2258.03,"end":2267.617,"text":"那在業務方面我們也建立了立稿指引精進檢討的作為我們會建立檢察官或司法警察機關提供偵查中影音之"},{"start":2269.918,"end":2295.344,"text":"資料的一個檢核表曾請核准前程立稿格式協助檢察機關妥適的應用那我們會隨時檢討現實關於偵查不公開及的一些的相關的一個措施偵查不公開那是維護司法正義及公信力的重要原則檢察機關一定是要必須要嚴守的本部將持續督導偵查不公開各項的檢討措施"},{"start":2296.404,"end":2314.12,"text":"若是檢討的督導機制符合法律規定堅固公共利益之維護並請其他偵查程序依法執行之務而接觸偵查內容者要共同落實遵守這個原則並讓我國的法制不斷向前進步以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2325.724,"end":2343.29,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生本會奉邀到貴委員會就如何破除偵查大公開"},{"start":2344.468,"end":2358.643,"text":"以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障．進行專題報告如下．進行指教考量媒體具有接辟實證．所望社會第四權的功能．關於偵查不公開的言者之規定．"},{"start":2361.445,"end":2381.398,"text":"雖僅規範檢警人員．然為維護司法案件．當事人無罪推定言者及公平審判之權利．並兼顧新聞自由．滿足人民知的權利．橫著國外民主國家的做法．本會透過三立共管機制．對於廣電事業進行管理．由於電視業者所組成的"},{"start":2384.502,"end":2412.187,"text":"公學會已將偵查不公開及無罪推定原則納入其自立規範當中。建議特定司法案件發展備受關注本會議113年9月20日含請相關電視公學會以報導及評論司法案件應遵守事實查證及公平原則注意無罪推定及偵查不公開等自立規範"},{"start":2413.388,"end":2416.956,"text":"為督促業者落實自立衛星廣播電視法第22條"},{"start":2421.363,"end":2443.497,"text":"以明文規定媒體應該建立自立規範機制並受理民眾有關播送內容正確平衡品味之申訴且應定期提出具體的報告列為公開資訊同法第27條一定有新聞報導不得違反事實查證是損害公共利益之規定且有相關的罰則以落實新聞媒體"},{"start":2445.138,"end":2463.224,"text":"事實查證之法定義務令《廣播電視法》及《衛廣法》亦有利害關係人行使更正權之權益保附相關規定。針對民眾檢舉涉有違反前階規定之案件本會經逐一調閱測錄帶審視具體的個案內容並依作業標準流程處理本會將持續精進廣電媒體落實司法人權保障"},{"start":2473.768,"end":2497.204,"text":"謹慎處理司法案件之報導．並透過與媒體公協會及新聞頻道即時溝通．敦促其落實自立本會亦持續辦理媒體專業素養課程．強化新聞媒體從業人員以自播新聞時注意偵查不公開言則之自立規範．以提升媒體的處理司法品質以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2503.496,"end":2505.403,"text":"那下一位我們請蓮正署馮署長報告"},{"start":2514.983,"end":2540.949,"text":"主席、委員、與會的各部會先敬大家好今天奉邀列席貴委員會針對如何破除偵查大公開．以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障的議題進行專案報告本署偵辦案件向來刻尊偵查不公開的相關規定並兼顧發現真實與當事人名譽隱私的權利保障以下請就本署辦理偵查不公開作業情形進行報告進行指教"},{"start":2541.969,"end":2568.967,"text":"第一遵循法務部偵查不公開的作業辦法規定積極的修訂本署的行政規則強化落實相關的作業流程本部在108年的3月15日修正了偵查不公開作業辦法那本署也在6月13日訂定法務部廉政署辦理刑事案件落實偵查不公開作業要點也在同年的9月24日修正了法務部廉政署新聞處理及聯繫作業要點統一新聞處理作業"},{"start":2572.189,"end":2587.089,"text":"那在112年的11月28日也修正了法務部廉政署辦理速探案件落實人權保障注意事項然後落實案件偵辦過程中的人權維護近期本署為了提升辦案案件的品質"},{"start":2589.266,"end":2608.502,"text":"維護詢問室的安全跟秩序深化落實偵查不公開也在8月20號的時候訂定了法務部、廉政署、詢問室的管理要點那第二部分偵查不公開辦理的情形本署建置了檢討及督導小組檢討小組的會議原則每季召開一次必要時得及時召開"},{"start":2609.683,"end":2638.592,"text":"全面檢視偵查中的案件．所有的新聞報導．以及偵辦人員是否有違反偵查不公開的相關情勢．會後也即時的通知了案件偵辦同仁．務必嚴守偵查不公開的相關規定．並定期將檢討及查處的情形．公告在本署的網站上．此外在偵辦過程中．也明確劃定了採訪的禁制區．包含了設置新聞中心．"},{"start":2639.572,"end":2656.477,"text":"內部的公共區域都已經禁止媒體進入那也另外設有發言人的制度統一新聞發布的窗口並且本署為了全面深化落實偵查不公開也定期的對本署人員實施偵查不公開的教育訓練"},{"start":2657.898,"end":2682.89,"text":"本署偵辦速探案件．辦案的同仁均克徵職責．謹守偵查公開原則．偵查的事項若遭公開或揭露．首當其中的違案件偵辦．絕非本署樂見．所以本署亦期許各界一同落實偵查不公開．給予辦案人員純淨的辦案空間以上報告 敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2684.953,"end":2687.819,"text":"下一位我們請調查局吳副局長報告"},{"start":2703.607,"end":2727.888,"text":"主席．各位委員．各位女士．各位先生大家好．應邀律師貴人會．就如何破除偵查大公開．以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障．來進行專題報告．進行質詢。暗藏案件調查的過程當中．各種偵查不公開的原則．是我們從事犯罪調查者．保障人權最低的一個限度的實踐．也是確保案件順利偵破的一個關鍵．"},{"start":2729.714,"end":2749.922,"text":"既然既可以保護偵查所獲得成果．而且避免後續偵查遭受猜測．又可落實無罪推定的原則．避免在案件起訴或判決前．被告及犯罪嫌疑人以外的人．知道對當事人的隱私名譽遭受侵害．所以本局嚴格來要求我們的．"},{"start":2752.943,"end":2781.812,"text":"發言人員在偵查過程當中一定要遵守我們偵查不公開的原則和善盡保密的義務那基於此點我們局裡面要求辦案同仁遵求遵守我們在我們辦案相關的規定在我們犯罪調查稅務手冊裡面有做了明確的一個規範另外在我們法務部調查局新聞處理跟聯繫執行要點裡面也有做明確的規範我們在犯罪調查稅務手冊的部分我們規範重點在偵破案件的時候我們要因"},{"start":2782.692,"end":2798.368,"text":"遵守偵查不公開原則．包含偵查程序．內容以及所得的新證．都不可以公開．要絕對保密在案件偵辦的時候．我們也不得帶同媒體．一同辦案．或者是不當使用．被告犯罪嫌疑人．受媒體拍攝．直接採訪．或是相關的畫面"},{"start":2800.71,"end":2815.301,"text":"有必要發布新聞處理的時候我們也必須要做好事前的審查事前審查的時候我們必須先徵求檢察官的意見核准的前線一律要到局長最高的成績來做一個核准"},{"start":2816.101,"end":2816.241,"text":"新聞處理跟聯繫要點"},{"start":2832.973,"end":2847.309,"text":"我們也規定我們新聞發布必須要指定新聞發言人那新聞稿事前也必須經過審核那接待採訪的媒體必須要確認他的身份、服務單位、出現採訪的地點、接待室都必須要在指定的住所"},{"start":2848.01,"end":2867.967,"text":"我們為了落實相關的規定我們除了就新進人員跟在職人員我們經常做一些教育宣導之外我們在偵查不公開我們檢討小組會議我們也定期的召開那如果同仁有違反的情形之下我們也一定的追究責任絕不姑息絕不看待以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2869.804,"end":2871.245,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":2899.042,"end":2919.091,"text":"大家好今天應邀列席貴委員會就如何破除偵查大公開．以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障做專題報告非常感謝委員長期對本署的支持跟重視那緊究相關工作這個檢要報告如下"},{"start":2921.51,"end":2943.814,"text":"本署除夕加強違修案件的查處由刑事警察局組成專案不公開組成偵查不公開督導小組常態性偵探各警察機關偵辦刑案新輪的處理情形如果發現有違反情形及法案交查近期我們針對歷年來從103年"},{"start":2948.45,"end":2948.85,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2966.826,"end":2980.251,"text":"新聞的防處機制以處分規定。第三本署將督促各警察機關落實警察機關遵辦刑案及處理新聞、偵查不公開。因此注意要點強化"},{"start":2983.393,"end":2986.216,"text":"遵守規範及執行偵查實務上起的平衡．一直是本署努力的目標．我們將持續透過委書的查處．"},{"start":3004.721,"end":3021.371,"text":"要求落實規範．督促警察人員落實執行．並實施定期教育訓練．強化警察人員偵查不公開的藝術．以兼顧公共利益及人權保障．以上檢要報告 敬請各位委員給予主教謝謝這邊徵求各位"},{"start":3031.994,"end":3056.462,"text":"委員的意見因為全聯會他們希望說能夠提出一個三分鐘的報告那不知道各位委員同不同意律師的全聯會同意好那我們麻煩李委員李琦提出報告你不是說他們不是嗎"},{"start":3060.971,"end":3067.207,"text":"他人又不知道去哪裡了好沒關係那我們就既然這樣的話那我們就直接開始"},{"start":3069.812,"end":3093.84,"text":"那我們這樣的話列席的機關都已經報告完畢那我們相關的書面內容列入公報記錄那現在開始我們進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記請說主席你再給我講一下你這個還沒有總長啊"},{"start":3097.435,"end":3116.495,"text":"不是 總長依照法院組織法只有在預算案或是法律的那個法律案時候才可以請他來啊你叫他不就要來但是我們禮拜四的法律案有請他過來 明天這個其實跟他也很重要關聯"},{"start":3118.123,"end":3120.143,"text":"上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員進行詢問"},{"start":3160.524,"end":3170.895,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、警政署副署長"},{"start":3184.389,"end":3201.303,"text":"三位好,時間的關係不亦問候感謝在我今天針對偵查不公開這個重要的議題請各位提專案報告但我必須要老實講我拜讀完各個主管機關的專案報告以後我自己心裡的感覺"},{"start":3202.564,"end":3216.577,"text":"是你們所提出來的專案報告跟現實的世界是處於平行時空我再說一次你們所提的專案報告跟現實的世界是處於平行時空"},{"start":3217.478,"end":3243.473,"text":"任何在晚上有看台灣政論節目的觀眾我再說一次任何在台灣晚上有看政論節目的觀眾都會發現我們的官方報告大家都遵守偵查不公開全部的人都遵守偵查不公開所以那些政論節目從記者到名嘴大概每一個人都會通靈每一個人都會通靈"},{"start":3247.625,"end":3270.134,"text":"都不是減掉獎的都是這些媒體記者跟名嘴要不然就通靈要不然就胡說八道絕對沒有違反偵查不公開我上一次執行法務部部長的時候關鍵的問題我都問過了所以我今天想利用執行的時間"},{"start":3272.457,"end":3279.994,"text":"幫被害人說幾句話不是偵查不公開的被害人是我昨天去參加一場告別式"},{"start":3281.536,"end":3302.419,"text":"我從昨天參加完那兩告別式到現在我心裡非常非常的難過我一直在想我們的制度、我們的運作到底會出了什麼問題昨天我去土城分局清水派出所前所長、中興前所長的告別式"},{"start":3305.945,"end":3318.23,"text":"行李完了以後啊離開我跟中興的夫人我清新的拍拍他請他節哀請他保重他只跟我講幾個字啊拜託照顧好警察拜託照顧好警察"},{"start":3330.962,"end":3352.216,"text":"上一次去看他的時候他沒有提過一個跟他自己或跟中興的親屬個人利害關係有關的要求沒有他只講一件事拜託照顧好警察我看了他的夫人帶著一個4歲手上抱著一個還沒有滿1歲的小朋友"},{"start":3353.55,"end":3377.908,"text":"我老實講我心裡非常的難過我回去看啊到底發生了什麼樣子的事情我上次跟部長講過溯源追查好好查不是只有查到那個拖著開車啊有沒有食用毒品我不知道了交給檢察官去偵查車上有毒品開著車警察臨檢拒檢"},{"start":3380.475,"end":3405.434,"text":"一直撞、一直開搞到一條寶貴的人命整個家庭全部都破碎了溯源追查毒品這個是上次部長有承諾我我等著看結果但我要問的事情是什麼我要問的事情是這件事情從去年開始我們針對Atomic Death"},{"start":3406.98,"end":3419.185,"text":"上次煙彈也好啦依託彌子也好啦中文有各式各樣的翻譯搞了這麼久到了今年8月5號才正式列為三期圖評對於這樣子的效率部長你滿不滿意這樣的效率你滿不滿意"},{"start":3425.831,"end":3447.904,"text":"那這部分是跟委員報告伊多米斯是在今年6月13日才是獨省會是本部獨品省立委員會有決議所以我問你這樣的效率你滿不滿意我只問你這個問題這樣的效率你滿不滿意那這部分已經那跟委員報告那這部分已經公告為我知道啦這樣的效率你滿不滿意這部分已經大幅縮短了作業的時間了所以這樣的效率你是滿意的嗎"},{"start":3455.233,"end":3482.543,"text":"我老實跟部長講這個東西在台灣列為毒品管制的效率我一點都不滿意我很多被害人也不滿意部長你覺得滿意沒有關係這是你的意見表達我都尊重再往下私有二級毒品跟三級毒品處罰落差很大我相信部長幹過檢察官非常的清楚下一個問題現在列為三級毒品"},{"start":3484.349,"end":3488.423,"text":"警界有很大的呼聲說希望列為二級圖品．法務部戰無戰成"},{"start":3489.475,"end":3489.635,"text":"這個獨家犯"},{"start":3518.598,"end":3546.668,"text":"我大概把他犯罪的歷程因為我一直在思考這件事情到底是怎麼發生我必須要負責任的把他全部的犯罪歷程調出來第一次施用毒品藉隱治療結果施用二級毒品判刑三個月一顆罰金施用第二級毒品判刑三月一顆罰金施用第二級毒品一顆罰金"},{"start":3548.28,"end":3577.503,"text":"使用第二級毒品判刑4月一顆罰金一連串下來全部都是一顆罰金來我請教一下我們司法院刑事廳從刑事法規範的目的不管你要採取硬報還是一般預防特別預防不管你採取什麼理論你會不會跟台灣社會大眾說明一下一犯再犯一再侵犯"},{"start":3580.613,"end":3592.917,"text":"這個處罰可能連腳字都沒有到底有什麼效果可以跟社會大眾說明一下嗎用一般人聽得懂的語言用被害人聽得懂的語言告訴我們的社會大眾我們的刑事司法體系到底是出了什麼問題請說明"},{"start":3600.951,"end":3607.255,"text":"對誰教育宣導這是今天才發生的嗎這是今天才發生的事情嗎抓到一次罰三萬塊抓到一次罰三萬塊有什麼處罰的效果"},{"start":3629.983,"end":3633.405,"text":"有什麼預防的效果?會怕嗎?有什麼預防的效果?有什麼治療的效果?搞到現在社會大眾看到的是什麼?一個媽媽牽著一個四歲的小孩手上抱著一個未滿一歲的嬰兒"},{"start":3662.233,"end":3666.214,"text":"這不僅是這個獨家犯的問題這個是這個國家制度的問題這樣的制度到底在保護誰我們念法律念了那麼久我們念法律念了那麼久"},{"start":3687.803,"end":3696.867,"text":"從刑法各式各樣的理論全部都念過了我看到這樣的結果我只想問一件事啦這樣的刑事司法制度到底保護了誰這個獨家犯脫刑死亡警察臨檢拒絕脫刑死亡目前的法定刑事多少"},{"start":3719.861,"end":3733.245,"text":"目前的法定刑事多少拜託你是刑事定聽長你還要翻法條喔我為什麼不叫副秘書長上來三年以上十年以下你覺得OK嗎就法定刑來講這算一般來講我們認為這是一個重刑相當的重刑的這樣是重刑是 只是在法官量刑的部分要怎樣讓他正適當的量刑"},{"start":3750.566,"end":3767.595,"text":"再往下第二個被害人這個被害人是我離開立法院以後我那時候成立了一個吹噪者保護協會他哭著跑來找我張淑娟來請NCC主任秘書"},{"start":3776.803,"end":3802.026,"text":"他2022年喔怎麼在政論節目上面被霸凌的我相信NCC非常的清楚啦怎麼在政論節目上被霸凌的我相信NCC很清楚啦昨天超過兩年喔超過兩年喔昨天刑事第一審開庭做最後的延遲辯論做最後的延遲辯論"},{"start":3805.12,"end":3831.517,"text":"形式上他有他的權利啦我看了相關他的辯詞我看了我沒有辦法相信來我先請教個common sense指控一個未婚的女性跟已婚的男性滾床單是不是負面名詞是不是負面名詞好你們NCC啊今天說什麼新聞自律啊"},{"start":3833.017,"end":3852.849,"text":"還要求說什麼相關的紀錄要上網來看一下當初參與霸凌的這個廣電媒體民視公司2022年第11次新聞自律諮詢倫理委員會這個就是你們所講的新聞自律的機制嘛結果這些新聞倫理自律的委員講什麼說我們節目的內容哪裡妨礙工序良俗有委員說滾床單咧"},{"start":3862.884,"end":3865.925,"text":"結果裡面竟然有人講說滾床單是負面名詞嗎我們現在的新聞自律倫理機制有沒有發揮功能啊我看了這個新聞自律倫理委員會的討論啊我只能夠說啊大開眼界啊一個無辜的女性被傷害成這個樣子進入你們所講的新聞自律倫理機制結果是怎樣"},{"start":3892.293,"end":3912.047,"text":"滾床單是負面名詞嗎?難怪大家都覺得這個新聞倫理自律機制是形同虛設更離譜的事情是什麼?然後我們繼續往下看結果那一次新聞倫理相關的記錄我從開始追這個案子的時候在網站上消失"},{"start":3919.488,"end":3925.529,"text":"開完會不敢潑上去開完會不敢潑上去為什麼不敢潑上去我的判斷絕對不是失誤不敢潑上去是因為丟人現眼丟人現眼自己都知道自己討論的內容社會大眾看了心裡感覺為什麼不敢潑上去"},{"start":3945.441,"end":3972.527,"text":"你們現在有沒有要求新聞之旅倫理委員會的會議記錄要上網?有如果沒有上網罰則是什麼?我們在...我們在二十...違反二十二條我們是...二十萬嗎?我們是違反二...違反沒有...沒有依照程序來公告的話會有二十萬的罰款有罰嗎?呃...這一件...這一件它有...它有公告啊拜託 你回去看一下啦什麼時候公告的什麼時候公告的"},{"start":3974.454,"end":3999.895,"text":"拖到今年3月才補上網我有沒有講錯這是我回去再查一下如果假設他沒有依照程序來公告他我們會處罰該處罰要處罰喔是這什麼新聞倫理自律機制啊是是是那個最主要是因為那三位也都是他們外部所寫的外部專家學者啦那學者的話如果說你對你自己的言論那你自己要負責"},{"start":4001.894,"end":4022.743,"text":"沒有啦 他們要言論他們自己負責 他們自己負責嘛當然是他們自己負責嘛但這種丟人現眼的東西依法要公告在裡面講的丟人現眼的話依法要公告沒有公告這就是NCC的責任了不是嗎我一再查一下你們當初在給他換照通過的時候有審酌這件事嗎我們都會審酌都會審酌代表有審酌但是沒有罰是嗎"},{"start":4029.929,"end":4051.45,"text":"因為換照的時候他是換不換照的問題不是處罰的問題拜託換不換照的時候有沒有依照建立健全的新聞倫理紀律機制他不是審酌的要點之一嗎?是依法該公告沒有公告不是審酌的要點之一嗎?是那你不是說要審酌所以你們審酌了以後決定給他換照沒關係但是也不用罰是這樣嗎?"},{"start":4053.82,"end":4079.877,"text":"如果假設有違反程序的話當然是違法但是換作是另外一個對啦我知道嘛我要講的事情是什麼這件事情你們早就應該知道了啦我現在在質疑的是你們早就知道了為什麼沒有任何處罰我一再查一下好了OK主席站起來了好謝謝謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員進行尋討"},{"start":4082.058,"end":4110.268,"text":"另外我先做宣告今天委員提出臨時提案那依據本會往例依據上午11點處理那如果到時候正好有委員在詢答就等該委員詢答完畢之後立刻進行處理臨時提案那請莊瑞雄委員進行詢答謝謝莊委有請我們法務部麻煩部長政部長"},{"start":4112.387,"end":4130.435,"text":"我們廉政署馮誠署長、法務部調查局副局長、內政部警政署陳永利副署長是不是也請我們司法院司法廳廳長我就不問候了部長"},{"start":4137.162,"end":4152.418,"text":"我想今天召委排這樣的一個議程有它的一個意義但是整個標題是在講說我們這整個偵查大公開這個是各位"},{"start":4153.878,"end":4180.021,"text":"應該是很有感觸我也有非常大的一個感觸那確實是最近我們整個社會上發生的一些案件民眾我相信也感受在心裡那剛剛我聽了黃國昌委員的一個質詢以後其實我又剛好有不同的想法像比如說剛他在質詢的時候這整個毒品防治犯罪的部分"},{"start":4180.933,"end":4198.99,"text":"他痛心疾首他的感受我相信一般社會大眾也會有感可是我倒是反向思考我覺得各位剛剛的答詢都不太好為什麼說不太好我記得我記得封城我們都差不多吧我們都幾乎說同一輩二十幾年前還不到三十年"},{"start":4204.335,"end":4233.18,"text":"我去看守所在濾箭或在監獄裡面濾箭的時候啊那個時候監獄裡面關的以前叫煙毒犯嘛毒品犯罪的人沒到20%沒到20%就當初吸食毒品啊從樂戒到戒治後來法律我們一直修一直改我要請教我們法務部長就是說我們現在在監獄裡面我們的毒品犯罪的人"},{"start":4236.203,"end":4258.861,"text":"現在是4成多以前是超過5成現在已經降到5成以下了我每一次到監所裡面去我第一件事情問典獄長的就是說你這關於毒品的才要幾成有超過5成了對不對那我要問的就是說我們這個法律一直修訂我們這個社會對整個毒品犯罪啊"},{"start":4260.086,"end":4280.734,"text":"深惡痛絕可是呢越關越多就不管是採取硬報或者採取剿制全部都失敗全部都失敗這廳長你也很清楚嘛這個都是失敗我要提出來的一個警告就是說會不會我們的方法錯了會不會我們跟國外剛好相反喔"},{"start":4287.469,"end":4311.105,"text":"但是國外有成功的我們不敢用我們因為政治上的攻防也沒有任何一個執政者會去採取像荷蘭採取像歐洲甚至於像美國好多現在連毒品犯罪大麻都沒有犯罪你們又不敢所以我們對毒品犯罪叫做束手無策"},{"start":4312.011,"end":4340.208,"text":"那立法院裡面要的是說老百姓很討厭就把他刑度提高提高提高提高這個結果變成什麼有沒有去做一個省思簡單回答一下部長我們現在毒品是現在已經明年要進入反毒策略行動幹委第三期了那現在我們是導進就是說在整個一個供應跟那個需求我們是那個要把它阻斷阻斷掉那降低那個需求"},{"start":4340.928,"end":4341.048,"text":"有好嗎?"},{"start":4369.459,"end":4389.177,"text":"我認為是有效果,如果沒有效果的話,不會新生人口不會降低那監獄裡面這些人數會降低嗎?有降低啦,現在已經降到4成,應該是4成2吧,4成2那這邊我們用多元處理方案,因為其實把它關到牢裡去其實會衍生很多做學就業的很多的一個問題"},{"start":4389.838,"end":4418.397,"text":"那事實上這是他有病人跟病人的一個特質因為他吸毒他那個整個腦部的基因會有減損所以時間沒有很多啦我要提出來就是說我跟黃國昌委員的看法不一樣啦不一樣啦但不一樣的東西是我們共同厭惡的一樣但是呢我認為我們的方式啊未必是對啦這個真的值得法務部好好去思考啦不然不會刑度一直增加然後毒品犯罪的"},{"start":4419.519,"end":4430.155,"text":"聲告有的監獄裡面關了快50%國外的方法有效的我們又不能用也不敢用這個值得去省思另外我要講的就是說"},{"start":4431.755,"end":4457.985,"text":"今天我們這個所謂的偵查大公開我是很大的一個感觸偵查我相信不公開各位全部都是法律人大家很清楚最主要是保障犯罪嫌疑人跟被告合法的一個權利就是說在整個未經審判程序的一個這個過程裡面防止未經審判程序的一個輿論審判同時去維護整個社會的一個公平性我要請教調查局好了先調查局好不好"},{"start":4461.485,"end":4469.472,"text":"你們這五年內這五年內因為違反偵查不公開的部分你們有沒有處罰過的人案例 幾件"},{"start":4474.276,"end":4499.155,"text":"幾件就好我們總共我們從105年到目前為止我們總共有我們主動提報地檢署偵辦我們同仁涉嫌洩密的案件我們總共有七件處罰了幾件七件我們七件大概大部分都起訴那另外在行政調查部分我們也都去做行政上面的追究那幹部如果說有疏失的話我們也做行政上面的追究"},{"start":4501.072,"end":4508.44,"text":"我看我們本院一些委員一直在講說這個整個偵查不公開裡面"},{"start":4510.091,"end":4526.647,"text":"涉及到的一個件數啊甚至於講到說有七千多件違反偵查不公開那只有十幾位被處分這個新聞我們也都看到了啊阿博長你認為啊我們法務部裡面啊你來這樣你這樣了解起來這五天就要不要做了你如果出發過萬偵查不公開你覺得"},{"start":4534.881,"end":4558.593,"text":"那個我們是整個一個案記加總是處分是這幾年統計是15件齁那跟委員報告那個7000多件那個是有件報的我們一定會把它對啦有件報沒有錯那再來做一個那個過濾審查阿你出阿有的你覺得有幾件阿這幾年是15我統計資料是15件15件阿有處罰了嗎就處罰15件處罰15件對阿那個那個那個級別都到哪裡"},{"start":4565.578,"end":4566.119,"text":"以法務部來看的話"},{"start":4582.563,"end":4596.402,"text":"剛調查局那邊還有幾件調查人員那以法務部來看的話就似乎檢察官就都沒有那沒有是好事啊可是這個社會到底會不會相信就很怪你們也必須要有這樣的一個疑問"},{"start":4597.903,"end":4603.267,"text":"我們整個刑事訴訟法第245條我請教司法院行政廳廳長廳長我們245條的第5項裡面去講到說檢察官檢察事務官或者司法警察司法警察官辯護人告訴代理人或其他於偵查程序依法執行職務的人員除了為了維護整個公共利益或保護合法的一個權益者以外"},{"start":4623.879,"end":4637.009,"text":"偵查中執行職務之息的事項．不得去公開或者揭露．給這些執行法定職務範圍以外之人．所謂的以外之人．包括你的內心的想法．包括哪些人"},{"start":4639.465,"end":4656.61,"text":"包括你的見解就我們認為接觸到的可能接觸到的相關的人員他所窒息到有沒有包括記者這個部分我們不是很確定但是基本上我們那個是在規範公務員的我是說不得揭露給哪些人我告訴你喔"},{"start":4657.33,"end":4671.875,"text":"按照你們高院的見解陳辦中的檢察官偵查中的一個案件連總統行政院長連法務部長都不能讓他知道這個在之前的案例有出現是高院也講了一個見解"},{"start":4672.995,"end":4690.254,"text":"那個部長 部長 部長 你那檢察官偵查案件 你會偷偷的去問嗎這個我不會去干涉郭文貴 是啊 他如果說給你聽 你眼睛 你的眼睛會怎樣 這樣會怎樣這個他不會來找我報告這些事情也不會啦 不會也不要像以前那個黃世民一樣 傻傻的跑去跟馬英就講"},{"start":4693.475,"end":4715.593,"text":"這個不可能的事情 不應該發生 我的意思就是說我們這整個法制啊 其實它不是沒有規定 它規定得很清楚啊你像譬如說 你一個偵查程序當中只是一個偵查階段的一個開始而已啊 被告到底有沒有犯罪都還不知道"},{"start":4716.656,"end":4724.929,"text":"你說很多被告啊你把他列為被告像譬如說假設各位被列為被告的話你們第一個怎麼想你們第一個想說我絕對相信司法司法是給我清白的對不對"},{"start":4727.785,"end":4751.076,"text":"可是如果是被告的時候檢察官一直給你放一直給你放或者其他人一直給你放這對當事人的隱私名譽甚至於整個身家的一個安全啊這對這個都違反到法律對他們的一個保護啊所以任何在偵查當中任何一個訊息的一個洩漏啊對當事人或者他的家屬啊都會造成嚴重的一個損害啊這部長你敢認同這個嗎"},{"start":4753.177,"end":4767.007,"text":"這個是謝謝委員的指導麥公指導這個我們都很心知肚明你要保障整個偵查的一個工作你國家機關尤其是偵查機關你本來就想有比較優越的一個資訊的一個關鍵"},{"start":4769.989,"end":4780.774,"text":"那可是呢你任何一個不當的一個洩漏以後啊這對於你保全犯人也好或者說對於收集跟保全證據這會產生很大的一個阻礙法我們也修了我記得你看喔我們在偵查中執行職務的事項不能任意去洩漏這個在2012年的時候你去徵訂刑事訴訟法245條第5項還會同司法院還有行政院去訂定偵查不公開的一個辦法"},{"start":4799.542,"end":4816.214,"text":"到了2017年施改國事會議當中也去討論偵查不公開．跟媒體不當或違法報導影響的議題做成決議才有2019年去修正偵查不公開的一個辦法我要問問題出在哪裡 部長現在都走不上了都走不上了問題出在哪裡在問部長這個問題 廉政署裡面那邊也是一樣啊"},{"start":4829.025,"end":4843.046,"text":"全部都是一樣的啦!你們警政署也是一樣啦!都一樣的啦!你們也不知道怎麼說?兩手一攤!無解!部長回應一下!這個要讓社會至少知道你們的態度嘛!"},{"start":4844.107,"end":4862.762,"text":"我想我們會在嚴格的一個落實事實上我們會已經目前我們都已經最近我們有多次的發行要求還有利用各種的包括檢察長會任何的教育訓練研討會我們都在申訴這一個態度這部分如果說差的話我們就是絕對嚴辦絕路寬待部長我跟你說無效為什麼無效"},{"start":4871.172,"end":4888.56,"text":"涉及到這一些偵查不應該揭露的資訊的人都是專業人士啊不可以叫人來偵查檢察官一定是嘛調查局一定是嘛司法警察官一定是嘛司法警察一定是嘛你廉政署的人一定都是專業人他們怎麼會不懂這些法律為什麼會這樣就是沒辦兩件齁台階很高啦我舉跟我們召委吳宗憲稍微過去有點關係的啦你看那個媽媽嘴暗嘛"},{"start":4900.731,"end":4929.542,"text":"最有名的吧你看當年那個呂政鴻殺人犯香港殺人犯你們的傳播都這樣去大動作2013年大動作養僑人的咖啡廳到現在來看無罪了還他清白了可是他被標籤化他對當事人是多大的一個傷害啊甚至於你看他走在路上搞不好人家還指指點點他看到這個對當事人那種精神上的折磨"},{"start":4930.957,"end":4955.604,"text":"這個不是喔所握公權力尤其是偵查發動權的司法人員有辦法去忍受啦所以保證我們不能說只有說有啦我都有在宣達有在教育啦有在做什麼問題外界看到的就是不是如此啊所以我們重喜我每一次我從在野黨國民黨執政我對這個偵查不公開我就很有意見我說我們偵查機關我們法務部這個地方"},{"start":4960.933,"end":4965.796,"text":"我就非常有意見。到了民進黨執政,其實我也非常有意見。你不改選,有補嗎?還有補嗎?"},{"start":4972.153,"end":4998.625,"text":"就像委員 我們有抓到證據我們就嚴辦當然啦 當然 抓到當然是一定要重罰問題你就抓不到 你就抓不到抓不到 你就不知道 你就每天你都每天你都覺得 這個對我們整個司法喔對尤其是啊 我們檢查體系啊受到那個不信任齁我告訴你喔 以最近發現發生的這些事情我問博定德 你的感觸是什麼 你的感觸是什麼欸"},{"start":5001.772,"end":5022.586,"text":"因為這個是最近辦了檢方辦了很多的社會矚目的一個案件那我想這個社會都非常的關注那媒體的話都大伍的報台灣新聞非常多那我是認為說很多的報道有些是以訛傳訛那這部分我們也要求檢察官對這部分我們有多分案來做一個了解"},{"start":5023.306,"end":5023.626,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員錯了兩個地方"},{"start":5049.602,"end":5059.871,"text":"他說昭偉今天這個偵查不公開的一個整個報告其實他講錯了今天叫做偵查大公開 對不對昭偉第二個他講說政論節目從晚上開始他也講錯了政論節目從中午就在開始講得太精彩了而且每一次講完以後我看你們的動作實在是"},{"start":5074.879,"end":5087.848,"text":"這個問題不是黨派的問題這個問題司法的話你本來就不應該有黨派你們真的要去想辦法不能任由偵查當中的這些資訊任意的去做一個揭露"},{"start":5088.926,"end":5114.553,"text":"為什麼要這樣講?你司法對人民來講的話你對於一個他認為是無罪的人司法應該是他的避風港難怪以現在我們的司法實務的操作變成是新聞頭條裡面的風暴中心你沒有特別會有感觸嗎?我相信我相信我的我們檢察官還有我們那個偵查團隊對最近報的我們認為"},{"start":5116.118,"end":5117.78,"text":"不是不是部長你這個我不同意喔你說最近這幾天的案件裡面這樣新聞的揭露你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開"},{"start":5135.844,"end":5158.896,"text":"這個違反偵查這個是還是要按照要講好喔要證據來認定的事實如果事後這一些萬一起訴書裡面揭露出來全部都在偵查階段裡面所公開任意揭露這些都是真的你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開我沒有說違反偵查不公開我認為這個就是說我相信我相信整個偵查團隊不會去違反偵查不公開"},{"start":5160.316,"end":5161.016,"text":"這個檢察官還在查齁 這個檢察官還在查"},{"start":5191.254,"end":5206.909,"text":"還是要對社會有一個正面的一個回應啦這個真的我們要非常謹慎啦好不好謝謝謝謝謝謝莊委員部長但莊委員的意思是說沒有違反你說沒有違反偵查不公開但是我們有違反偵查不公開的結果"},{"start":5208.334,"end":5222.029,"text":"事實上有這個結果但是你說沒有這個行為那就是很好很奇怪就是沒有這個行為但是卻在現實上有了這個結果剛剛莊委員是這個意思現在我們請沈委員進行詢問"},{"start":5239.593,"end":5246.016,"text":"主席我先請我們司法院的副秘書長副秘委員好黃副秘書長好這個我想今天的主題有關偵查大公開這個主題"},{"start":5260.76,"end":5281.841,"text":"我想大家大概等一下法務部長也是得上台了不過我為什麼會先找你上台我想你心裡大概也有數因為我們這個議題好像今年3月有類似的議題我那時候第一個也是找你上來我們目前為什麼因為我們目前我國這個法制有關於偵查不公開它的法源是哪裡"},{"start":5283.166,"end":5311.282,"text":"刑事訴訟法他授權訂定的這個偵查不公開作業辦法245條刑事訴訟法245條嘛齁這個偵查不公開之那刑事訴訟法的主管機關是是本院是司法院嘛齁那這個按照這個第245條他所授權他的第5項他授權說這個有關第一項偵查不公開的作業辦法由司法院會統行政院定之嘛齁對不對所以"},{"start":5312.202,"end":5318.326,"text":"所以我們就司法院就跟會前行政院就訂定了一個偵查不公開作業辦法對不對"},{"start":5320.443,"end":5345.074,"text":"所以偵查不公開作業辦法這個的主管機關也是司法院嗎對不對跟委員報告是那是在訂定當然我們實際上執行事件是法務部所以我們大致上都尊重法務部而且執行上面也大部分是法務部但是主管機關是你們所以你們有沒有瞭解在按照這個偵查不公開作業辦法之下各個其他的各個這些偵查單位跟偵查輔助單位"},{"start":5349.716,"end":5373.632,"text":"自己訂定的作業要點,你這邊知道嗎?委員報告齁,那這部分他們不會報給我們因為這部分,我們大概就是到了偵查不公開作業辦法至於輔助機關更下位階的你們訂好這個,訂好這個辦法之後就法務部列台級了是是是,他們都報給法務部,是執行便是法務部其實應該要掌握啦齁,因為畢竟你們是偵查不公開作業辦法的主管機關齁我認為說,你們不能說我跟"},{"start":5376.494,"end":5403.146,"text":"我跟法務部訂了這個辦法之後這些說偵查不公開的事情除非你告來法院否則都沒有我的事我想因為你們是主管機關你們是這個作業辦法的主管機關齁所以你們對這個作業辦法它的執行以及它的下位的這些作業要點你們也應該要有所掌握啦好不好要跟法務部要談因為向來多年來都是由法務部去掌握這部分我知道這個我知道好副院長請回啦齁所以還是得請本來想讓鄭部長休息一下啦齁不過"},{"start":5404.653,"end":5430.291,"text":"不過這個我們還是還是回歸到最後偵查不公開齁還是實際的執行單位還是我們法務部啦齁剛才我跟這個黃副秘書長我們所討論齁其實偵查不公開法律訂定這個偵查不公開他在當初在這個偵查不公開作業要點訂定的時候他的立法目的他的這個條文說明他就講"},{"start":5431.67,"end":5447.797,"text":"偵查不公開他的目的為什麼要做偵查不公開有三大目的第一個就是要確保公平的審判確保公平審判這是一個很重要的價值跟他的立法目的第二個是要維護偵查程序順利遂行"},{"start":5449.068,"end":5474.659,"text":"這整個偵查程序我們要讓它順利可以順利進行第一個是審判公平第二個是偵查程序順利第三要保障訴訟關係人之名譽隱私及安全這個是三個目的也就是審判以及偵查順利審判公平偵查順利然後保障訴訟相關當事人他們的權益他們的安全他們的隱私、名譽所以偵查不公開事實上"},{"start":5475.765,"end":5501.878,"text":"落實偵查不公開確實是一件非常重要的事情我們剛剛有討論偵查不公開他的作業辦法我們法務部在就偵查不公開的作業辦法下面下屬所屬單位有哪一些作業要點?部長能不能說明一下?廉政署有沒有?調查局有沒有?這個一個實施方案"},{"start":5507.284,"end":5534.88,"text":"委員報告就是我們有制定一個法務部加強所屬檢查調查及廉政機關偵搜偵查不公開原則的一個實施方案這是我們訂這一種那我們這個108年6月26號訂的啦我知道對這個名字也很長那另外那個廉政署調查局他們本身也有訂他們自己的一個行動也有訂啦齁因為這個偵查不公開這個除了偵查機關還有偵查輔助機關大概就是法務部跟警政署啦"},{"start":5535.854,"end":5563.325,"text":"警政署有警政署自己的這個警政署這個連政署調查局就算你們警政署有警政署自己的偵查不公開的辦法這跟你們沒有關係但是但是我現在要講你們這個剛剛你所念的這個名字很長叫做法務部加強所屬檢查調查及連政機關遵守偵查不公開原則實施方案"},{"start":5564.245,"end":5575.056,"text":"這個是108年6月26號訂定的啦齁那這個這個我們來看看現在目前齁有其實有關這個偵查不公開的這個作業要點齁這個裡面的這個這個其實他的規定結構還蠻複雜的這個偵查不公開作業要點齁的第8條他有規定一些"},{"start":5588.956,"end":5601.003,"text":"例外就是說偵查不公開是原則所有都在規定偵查不公開但是第8條是偵查不公開的例外他有一些他有這個7項規定7項有7項7種狀況在7種條件之下是偵查是可以公開的"},{"start":5608.633,"end":5631.285,"text":"這個部長你清楚嗎?這個清楚,這個我有做的辦法,這個第1到7項嘛。對對對,第8條1到7項,他說在其實就是說有重大犯罪啦,或者是有逃犯或者是通緝犯,要告知民眾防範,欲請民眾協助指認,或者是這個為了被告防禦權的行使的必要,或者是"},{"start":5632.125,"end":5642.635,"text":"目前已經有的報導與事實不符對這個訴訟當事人有重大名譽損害這部這時候我們可以公開所以他是偵查不公開的例外規定是但這些例外規定又有例外規定"},{"start":5644.09,"end":5667.789,"text":"第8條他所講的這7項他又排除說在這些你公開的時候你有一些例外規定這是規定在第9條第9條他就是第8條的例外規定他說你雖然可以公開但是這種情況又不能公開這個是第9條有關如果說被告是少年或犯罪嫌疑人具體這是否自首自白等等這些又有這個7個8個要件"},{"start":5672.99,"end":5688.73,"text":"是例外但這個例外之後又有例外排除他在後段從這個這個這個第二項開始這前項第六款的影音什麼資料如果有特別澄清的必要還是可以公開所以規定其實很複雜啦規定其實很複雜"},{"start":5690.851,"end":5705.266,"text":"所以相關的這些法律規定我覺得要讓我們現在所有的這些偵查機關真的要清楚在什麼樣的情況之下它是可以公開什麼樣的情況是不可以公開因為它的法律結構非常複雜規定例外例外又排除排除之後又但書"},{"start":5706.913,"end":5719.96,"text":"這個部分希望說我們法務部能夠讓我們的相關的這個單位能夠清除了其實因為我剛才我跟這個司法院副秘書長我們在3月的時候我們就討論過這個相關偵查不公開的案子但那時候政府長還沒上任"},{"start":5721.212,"end":5742.576,"text":"那時候我也針對法務部我有針對這個我們全有檢視我們全台灣地檢署有關偵查不公開的檢討跟查辦處分情形我從各個網站去抓你們每一個網站有公開有公開這個揭露你們有關這個偵查不公開的相關的這些數據來檢討那時候我有提出質詢那時候我是在這時候3月18號我提出質詢我認為這個統計數據跟辦法是有問題的"},{"start":5751.292,"end":5757.928,"text":"結果我3月18提出質詢之後好像你們5月是不是有針對我所提的質詢開了一個檢討會有一個延伤的一個"},{"start":5761.636,"end":5787.19,"text":"一個5月30有一個原商的一個會議這個是由抬高前來督導那個就是5月30裡面有辦一個偵查不公開作業辦法的相關精進作為一個原商會議對一個原商會議原商會議那之後齁我也就又在那時候3月的時候我做了一個統計那今天就用這個主題我昨天又做了一個統計所以我從看從這個從3月18"},{"start":5789.81,"end":5807.433,"text":"到這個之後數字有所變化也就是說3月你們所公告的到去年年底為止的到現在你們公告的是到今年第二季第三季有的到第二季有的公佈到第三季都有但是我把它就做了一個整理跟比較"},{"start":5808.669,"end":5811.573,"text":"就從我上次質詢3月18到現在公布的數字你們所檢討的件數光這幾個月你們檢討的件數就增加了2172件就是那時候本來"},{"start":5825.461,"end":5852.656,"text":"原本是檢討7300多件現在統計檢討了9400多件增加了2170這很好表示你們認真在這幾個月裡面你們多檢討了2700多件的案例但是你們檢討這麼多件數呢最後你們查辦了多少件2000多件你們查辦了多少件增加了77件就這幾個月增加查辦增加77件那增加這77件以後"},{"start":5854.653,"end":5879.271,"text":"你們最後處分增加了多少人部長你知道目前那個處分的話我們現在還是在15件還是在15件你們這些查辦我看你們我完全依照你們各網站的統計數字這幾個月從3月到10月你們檢討了2000多件那這個查辦了77件最後處分增加處分幾個人一個人"},{"start":5880.731,"end":5899.018,"text":"只處分一個人花了這麼多時間我們檢討了兩千多件最後處分了一個人這個破案率實在太低啦是因為我們都嚴守是因為我們所有的都嚴守這個偵查不公開嗎看起來也不是啊今天為什麼主席會排這樣子的"},{"start":5900.049,"end":5924.358,"text":"為什麼主席會排著這樣子的主題這樣的專案報告事實上就是對於現在顯然是對認為都是對於現在的這個某一些特定案件他的這個現在的這個偵查不公開的狀況有很大的問題跟漏洞啊跟委員報告事實上齁因為有接觸到案件人當然是偵查不公開是規範有接觸到有我知道了法定是但是能接觸到還有其他人還有包括這個部分齁"},{"start":5924.898,"end":5944.469,"text":"還有被害人、還有證人、甚至那些不可以有可能講出去阿這個部分我知道,這個部分我要請部長之順,你要對社會說明說明說為什麼你們檢討了兩千多件,這就只有處分一個人這個要說明,而不是只有數字,我看到在網站上就是數字這部分法務部應該說明啦但今天排這個案子,因為我時間快要到,最後我就談這個問題今天為什麼排這個案子"},{"start":5948.629,"end":5965.186,"text":"不然你知道我做了一個簡單的統計啦從我們我知道說今天為什麼排這個案子他關心的是哪一個案子從這個案子從搜索住宅開始從這個這個8月30搜索住宅開始9月5這個9月5號申請羈押到今天"},{"start":5967.767,"end":5982.155,"text":"這樣從8月30到今天喔就一家特定媒體就一家特定媒體他報導了多少次報導了這個有關於我們這個偵查的內容報導了多少次多少則新聞你知道嗎按照我的統計總共報導了八十則八十則跟他扣這個案子簽就可以了報導八十則一間特定媒體"},{"start":5991.458,"end":6014.977,"text":"有時候一天一天的報導最高一天到報導到八次就一天他就有八則新聞在在報這個案子這個吼是真的其實這個案子這樣子是很嚴重我知道你們過程中你們也有傳喚記者啦你們有傳喚記者來瞭解瞭解但記者就說啊這個沒有我們這所有的報導內容都是按照我個人的的長期跑新聞的經驗來得知的判斷臆測"},{"start":6017.981,"end":6021.57,"text":"然後你們就用這個東西做結論、結案case closed"},{"start":6023.534,"end":6049.07,"text":"這個公委報告這個案件我們那個這個案件還沒有解還在偵查中這個是一個初步的一個人一個適度的一個場景我要講了齁這個這種偵查不公開我剛講過他三大目的不分黨派我們不會因為說這個案子是什麼黨派的案子我們就說啊這個案子公開很好啊這個案子不公開比較好不會所有的案子我們都有一次我們認為說其實不只這個案子"},{"start":6050.106,"end":6076.574,"text":"過去不分藍、綠、白所有的司法案件只要社會矚目他就是這樣子新聞報導就是這樣就是大量的我們肉眼可見顯然就是來自內部的訊息這個我覺得我們不能再一而再再而三的說兩手一攤說這個沒有我們查了甚至傳喚記者了但記者這樣講所以我們case closed不行這樣子"},{"start":6078.578,"end":6084.502,"text":"那我同時也要講我們自己這些從政的藍綠我們這些政治人物也是一樣這種案子嚴肅看待"},{"start":6086.994,"end":6109.946,"text":"不分藍綠不分政黨立場大家嚴肅面對嚴肅看待而不是說別的黨的案子就拿出來喔拿來這裡質詢不只偵查不只這個新聞報導我還把這個新聞報導拿來貼在做成powerpoint黨在這裡說啊你看這個案子周刊這樣報導所以這個案子你們有沒有查所以這個案子你怎麼樣然後自己黨的案子就說啊這個偵查怎麼這樣子不公開為什麼這樣子報導"},{"start":6112.52,"end":6112.66,"text":"好 謝謝 那我"},{"start":6141.872,"end":6167.864,"text":"我們下一位請謝榮介委員進行詢問主席我請保證麻煩部長委員早我剛才請委員講的我先來問一下"},{"start":6171.59,"end":6196.002,"text":"像剛才在講說 不能分一檔的案、一檔的案這是合理的像剛才鄭水鴻 拿媽媽罪在調供、在頂主席這個案、那個案現在到位要判沒罪他的意思是什麼?是柯P到位有可能判沒罪你怎麼知道?對不對?有罪推定這樣嗎?"},{"start":6197.626,"end":6224.156,"text":"法律事務的聽,但是這個個案部分我就不評論,因為...不是啊,這有可能嘛,任何一個案都有可能破沒罪。罪惡的人不一定有罪,對不對?已經...已經犯以裁定罪惡,罪惡的人一定有罪。基本上就是因為法官會被裁定罪惡就是犯罪嫌疑重大。罪惡的人一定有罪啦。這個要用證據來認定嘛。不是,我現在說事務嘛。"},{"start":6227.711,"end":6228.592,"text":"這十年來有一個統計資料就是"},{"start":6247.208,"end":6259.813,"text":"有羈押處分的這部分有訂稅率是﹐起訴率是98﹐98台南市的議長、費算、秀娥那些人全部都沒做啊對不對所以我說的我不是針對做一個案子啦我是在說照剛才委員說的啊提那個案子現在新委員還去說嘛不要用個案來處理啊"},{"start":6279.577,"end":6292.12,"text":"社會重大受謀的案件沒中今天你沒論司法、行政、立法都一樣為什麼媒體叫第四款所以NCC有什麼要注意這對媒體主律來說第四款媒體想要邀請所有的新聞來滿足社會大眾這是媒體的立場跟他的做法"},{"start":6307.847,"end":6314.629,"text":"但是當媒體說出我檢到這條線我已經漆七噸了我還在說變人漆的這你要自己看嘛這個各位報告這個有來約談了這個有那個我們都讓他漆的我們都念中華民國政府的心碎啊我們說變人漆的"},{"start":6329.468,"end":6357.896,"text":"再來,剛才說到政策不公開,但是有內閣可以公開嗎?是不是這樣破掉?對,這個有那個作為辦法,您有什麼規定?不公開的部分應該是由什麼人來公開?這個新聞發言人新聞的發言人不是由媒體來公開嗎?不過就是因為我們會新聞發言人對媒體來做一個,我們會發新聞...你是透過媒體去說到,但是媒體公開的都不是你公開的那部分"},{"start":6359.229,"end":6372.714,"text":"就是你沒有公開的部分,他都給你公開啊不過這個新聞報導的,這個報導有些是捕風捉影捕風捉影是你說的嘛,捕風捉影不會說大家親像聯繫局這樣,淡明的就對了啦親像聯繫局講到有影有影,有卡有手了,再來"},{"start":6382.796,"end":6391.905,"text":"鑑聽的藝文你還出來鑑聽的藝文還跑出來你說這偵查我不知道哪裡有監聽的藝文偵查有公開或不公開我不清楚監聽的藝文當他在報道說這鑑聽的藝文裡面有什麼東西的時候這就標示內部已經出問題了嘛"},{"start":6404.035,"end":6412.719,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個內部齁 我們會檢討而且會落實齁我沒有跟你說什麼人有問題啦 我也不會說檢察官有問題 只是過程中有很多人接觸到這些資料啊但是對我 對我就是人民領域司法的公信已經受損嘛 你聽我意思嗎"},{"start":6427.199,"end":6427.619,"text":"包括今天現在現狀況"},{"start":6455.292,"end":6477.077,"text":"這才是基亞中的 先稱基亞中的案件我相信 你的故鄉在台南 跟我一樣這四年來 台南這塊土地遭受多少困難 我控告幾件你們都沒有要公開 奇怪 我控告的 你們都問我偵查不公開你也公開一下 半天我出來看看 看得到嗎 對不對"},{"start":6481.858,"end":6496.108,"text":"現在來...委員你關心的...我們就是...台南這個案件...你不要在這裡跟我說個人啦你說個人 我也不會要求你說個人台南這個案件因為...它所有所創造的地點都在台南市了既然過去發生了一個不法現在還有偵查這一個不法這麼多沒聽一句就對了 繼續在開罰"},{"start":6509.11,"end":6522.658,"text":"你知不知道外面現在說什麼人們就用司法的力量簽署現時的既定利益者還要一幫新的集團來吃肉部長你聽到會變成什麼樣子我們的故鄉你如果辦三案了嘛只要有接到我們有查到的法我們就會反流反流就是為了簽署這些既定利益者就對了這些都太狡猾了"},{"start":6538.735,"end":6546.76,"text":"這案件都在外面,你們都要抓一個局長去關全的人都不知道,一個局長可以在七百千億的案件下手抓停?可以這樣嗎?不可能絕對不可能,再來因為現在警察中,警察不公開,所以我不說他的名字聽說這個人,因為他判斷過了案,過去戰經是執政黨的個戰"},{"start":6567.216,"end":6571.439,"text":"他有救報、有其他卡在骨頭上,你如果問骨頭上,我有接到情報聽說他要走,我是希望這部分,我現在正式給你記報我的消息是說,他準備要繞跑,繞跑去後面都看不到了"},{"start":6591.824,"end":6615.704,"text":"有什麼訪問的作為跟委員報告因為我對案件我是不干涉、不知道、不介入若說委員這部分有比較具體的一個情緒我們是可以提供給台南地檢署給城辦的地檢署可以依照228條訴訟228條告訴高花或把一些的犯罪性我們就跟他告發我想任何意見任何的意見"},{"start":6618.478,"end":6619.679,"text":"那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員進行詢問"},{"start":6658.715,"end":6677.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長麻煩部長部長早委員早我們今天還是就偵查不公開的部分如果兼顧犯罪偵查和人權保障進行"},{"start":6679.36,"end":6703.573,"text":"這個探討相關的問題那類似的這個命題我們在上會期也有討論過實際上還是有不少這個改善的空間那尤其我們看到諸多這個社會矚目的案件仍然有偵辦中的內容被報導出來也讓社會對於所謂的這個偵查不公開的原則和辦法是否有落實一再提出質疑那"},{"start":6704.673,"end":6733.001,"text":"從先前這個詢答時聽到部長您說到都有請相關人員堅守原則和作業辦法那也看到確實在法規的這個層面上有訂定了很多要點和規範更要定期的滾動檢討那依照偵查不公開作業辦法的第11條甚至要組成偵查不公開檢討小組但是從機關過去所公布的這個查辦處分情形"},{"start":6734.272,"end":6760.058,"text":"受到這個處分的案件數非常的稀少跟社會大眾在新聞實際的這個所見所聞感受上還是有比較大的這個落差那因此也不禁讓人質疑究竟有沒有拿出積極的作為來偵辦而媒體有這個新聞自由挖掘真相也是記者的天職可是民眾也有知的權利有時候甚至反過來是由媒體"},{"start":6761.438,"end":6782.614,"text":"來提供資訊給檢調還可能幫助到這個偵辦的進度但媒體既不負偵查的不公開義務我們也難以得知這個案件消息的來源而且也不大可能這個所有的消息都是由辦案的同仁主動洩漏給媒體來得知所以檢"},{"start":6784.241,"end":6802.978,"text":"從這個"},{"start":6803.434,"end":6826.513,"text":"偵查不公開作業辦法的第10條來看對於這個案件中依法可公開的事項應該統一由這個新聞發言人新聞的發言人或受指定的人員來發布而不應該由其他的人來說明就部長所了解我們現行的這個偵查案件都是按照這個規定來處理嗎那另外媒體採訪地點和採訪的這個"},{"start":6829.716,"end":6855.636,"text":"禁制區的畫社內部管理上是否有嚴格的要求請部長您大概說明一下謝謝委員的問題真的是了解很透徹那這部分那個新聞的發布的確是按照那個第10條的一個規定要指定新聞發言來發言或者是其他的因為個案的需要用其有個別指定的但是這個這個硬體因為委員"},{"start":6857.731,"end":6886.212,"text":"我們這部分因為我們這個這個整個一個聽社這個新舊不一那有些是新建的聽社他可以很充分在一個新聞的採訪點和禁制區那個很容易去做一個一個一個規劃那因為比較老的聽社這部分這個硬體的不足所以我們在台高檢有一個8月30號的一個以及4月20號的一個一個一個一個"},{"start":6888.393,"end":6910.895,"text":"一個延伸的會議我們是用因地制宜的一個方式但是我們也是希望提醒說我們各檢察機關在發布新聞的話以及在這部分我們可以儘量是落實這個偵查不公開的一些的相關的一個規定我覺得我們還是要盤點一下盤點一下然後需要改善的還是要去改善"},{"start":6912.416,"end":6937.536,"text":"那從這個法務部的這個報告當中我們還看到每年會舉辦這個檢查機關發言人的這個研習對此我有兩個疑惑第一個就是這個發言人教育訓練的這個內容和辦理的情形目前為何那第二若有關這個案件不實的這個謠言還有闢謠的這個工作也會是由我們發言人來負責嗎對"},{"start":6939.994,"end":6956.222,"text":"他那個譬如說現在有一些的偵查不公開的作業報告第8條第7款如果說對這些的報導或社群網路等等的如果說有一些跟事實不符的話那第8條"},{"start":6957.302,"end":6957.382,"text":"發言人："},{"start":6978.561,"end":7004.009,"text":"這邊有這個查詢到部分我們地檢署定有這個門禁管制實施要點來落實維安的這個工作盡可能避免嫌詐人等進入到這個辦案的區域進而接觸到機敏的這個相關案件內容那我想再請教部長就是是否我們地檢署都定有相關的規範或對門禁有統一的要求在公開和辦公"},{"start":7004.751,"end":7008.525,"text":"辦案場域的門禁分級目前管理上是否有足夠的嚴謹"},{"start":7011.277,"end":7035.189,"text":"那這部分因為我剛才有跟委員報告事實上因為整個一個辦公廳設的一個設備的一個問題那所以我們是高檢署邀請各地檢署我們有開會就是用因地制宜的方式但是有門禁管制這部分那我們希望能夠各地檢署能夠訂那個門禁管制的這些的行政規則"},{"start":7036.349,"end":7051.997,"text":"那也避免外界對這個是出入的這些的一些的疑慮影響案件的一個偵辦這部分我們希望他都有定那這部分我們也會要求好那我想我們這個檢查機關在門禁管制上嚴謹與否不但"},{"start":7053.958,"end":7082.442,"text":"是為了防止案件的這個洩漏那同時也要保障到辦案人員的人身安全避免受到外在影響來干擾我們辦案也希望在門禁的這個管控上能夠再更加精進甚至採用更多科技方法避免這個閒雜人等能夠輕易的進到較這個敏感或被禁制的這個場域當中那另外則是有關這個被告或是"},{"start":7083.086,"end":7098.767,"text":"犯罪嫌疑人他資訊容易被公開或是拍攝的疑慮例如在北檢似乎因為地形和建築的因素任何人都能夠由上往下拍"},{"start":7101.295,"end":7118.74,"text":"車道的這個進出的這個位置那要落實無罪推定的這個原則求車道是不是也應該劃定為這個採訪禁制區那因為對於這個被告或是犯罪嫌疑人個人的這個名譽恐怕會造成較難回復的這個損害"},{"start":7121.041,"end":7149.918,"text":"那是不是請我們法務部進行盤點檢討考慮對於這個檢查機關在硬體上的隱蔽性進行適當的改善在人權的維護上能夠有更妥善的這個保障謝謝委員那個的確是每個地檢署的這個因為礙於設備的關係以及空間的關係的確可能這部分我們在盤點看各個機關我們在盤點用順便報告跟委員來做一個答覆好"},{"start":7150.958,"end":7154.322,"text":"同樣的問題我也想請教警政署陳副署長"},{"start":7164.563,"end":7192.438,"text":"副署長在6月份的時候監察院曾經提出糾正常常看到犯罪嫌疑人接受警訊及移送遞檢署時被媒體貼近拍攝採訪那也曾經有警察機關提供犯罪接受警訊或是被害人的報案相關的照片那我想請教我們警政署這部分是如何來檢討來落實偵查不公開的原則"},{"start":7193.406,"end":7193.506,"text":"就...就這樣"},{"start":7221.417,"end":7224.071,"text":"這是要得當然我們修正的是蠻多的啦好"},{"start":7225.009,"end":7251.201,"text":"好那這個部分是不是會後再請我們警政署這邊給我一個詳細的好那我想在這個法制面行政面還有業務面以及我們硬體上的這個通盤改進之外還要有這個積極的檢討跟查處不要讓我們辛苦的這些辦案人員背上莫名的黑鍋那偵查不公開的原則也是一定要落實"},{"start":7252.401,"end":7277.902,"text":"但社會矚目的這個案件若涉及公共利益民眾就有知的權利那媒體也有新聞自由需要找到兼顧的平衡點這部分也請在場機關首長一起來努力我們一起來維護司法的公正和公信力以上謝謝委員那下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行詢答"},{"start":7300.478,"end":7301.939,"text":"等一下那個pop point齁"},{"start":7333.709,"end":7334.229,"text":"移民署移民署怎樣"},{"start":7373.358,"end":7389.807,"text":"他在2019年入境台灣他在2020年發布紅色通緝但是我方不知道然後呢他在台灣取得了拘留之後呢移民署後來發現有這個犯罪的情況了他就要限期出境強制出境對不對但是呢強制出境呢"},{"start":7390.99,"end":7420.197,"text":"有個問題阿他出境你覺得他是拿哪一國的護照他是拿西班牙護照出境嗎這個我不清楚你覺得合理推斷他如果拿西班牙護照入境他可能拿西班牙護照出境然後呢他去新加坡新加坡有沒有准他簽證不知道但是呢新加坡拒絕他入境因為他有紅色的通緝不讓他入境新加坡有這個權利原班機就回來了對不對這為什麼會回來呢因為法院撤銷了行政法院撤銷了他的行政裁定是不是這樣子"},{"start":7421.189,"end":7430.654,"text":"那請問一下,你不見得知道他是騎西班牙護照的,那我們怎麼知道他在被紅色通緝?警政署知道嗎?警政署不要讓我有時間,剛剛請你們待命了齁我們看下一頁,警政署他怎麼知道的?跟委員報告這是國際刑警組織通報的你們什麼時候知道的?不知道?好沒關係,那他現在人在台灣了嗎?"},{"start":7445.782,"end":7447.383,"text":"他如果西班牙護照被註銷他還能夠被送到新加坡或西班牙嗎?"},{"start":7478.2,"end":7505.477,"text":"來,國際刑警有沒有經驗?警政署有沒有經驗?你們覺得呢?都沒有?都不知道?那個,警政署有沒有知道?部長知不知道?不清楚,你們要知道我看下一題就知道了,好來,往下看你還有一個什麼東西想跳上來,往上跳有沒有關聯?他是詐騙回台嘛來,有個橘子"},{"start":7506.448,"end":7530.615,"text":"到日本避風頭那他的朋友說他去遊學他現在是不是被列被告了是不是有個被列被告在日本滯留他這個已經被被告了那怎麼辦能叫他回來接受偵查嗎他是留學簽證欸他在日本他沒有違反規定日本也不要註銷他的簽證他就可以待在日本啊"},{"start":7531.704,"end":7549.931,"text":"部長怎麼辦 怎麼讓被告回來這部分齁 如果說有通緝的話 我想我們那個會檢察官或 通緝了沒有這個還沒有通緝 那如果通緝了可以叫他回來嗎註銷 這個就可以用25條 那個護照條例25條好 說得很好 25條註銷 我們來看一下有沒有辦法註銷齁 來往下看來 我們通緝啊 你直接說通緝了 本來說"},{"start":7556.974,"end":7580.393,"text":"如果被告人在國內的時候通緝可以逮捕人在國外你說要註銷他的護照是不是這樣子這個我們目前的說法可以就是可以嗎外交部領事裁判就依照你們有確定我們看一下往下看他現在你在發布他通緝假設發布他通緝他要遣返回台或他滯留日本或遣往第三國他可不可以遣往第三國"},{"start":7582.384,"end":7603.789,"text":"這份註銷護照的話 如果註銷護照 除了他有第二本國家的護照 不然他就沒辦法選第三國了 是不是這樣子好 那往下看以前呢 到底紀律上有沒有辦法註銷護照以前有位彭先生啊 他是遭通氣候護照被註銷我們了解的時候呢 他不是註銷 他是原護照到期去申請換發 就被扣了"},{"start":7604.619,"end":7619.992,"text":"他到時候就不扣了扣了之後他就沒有護照了所以他現在呢他就沒辦法到其他國家了是不是這樣子是那你們根據領事事務局告訴你們怎麼樣可以註銷通緝犯在國外的通緝犯的護照往下看有嗎怎麼註銷第幾條23條還是25條25條第二項25條第二項"},{"start":7625.475,"end":7626.636,"text":"那這樣子你們開始做了沒有?"},{"start":7653.879,"end":7659.562,"text":"目前的話我想這部分北檢會依照這個我相信因為我沒辦法去過問這個個案我相信成辦的地檢署成辦檢管應該會用這個方式來處理因為我沒辦法去過問"},{"start":7669.386,"end":7688.116,"text":"所以我秀出來的護照條例第25條沒有秀出來第二項再回過頭去援引第23項23條的第一項第二款司法或軍法機關通知主管機關那這個司法機關是我們的司法院是哪一個司法機關防護秘書長剛剛部長說的對嗎這司法機關是指誰是檢查機關所以檢查機關就會註銷對現在那個"},{"start":7698.686,"end":7700.927,"text":"那另外的哪些人要遵守偵查不公開的人員?"},{"start":7709.342,"end":7737.123,"text":"這個在作為辦法第5條有第1項、第2項都有規定就是警察嘛、檢察官嘛、辯護人嘛對不對這個蠻多的齁其實事實上那個修正的說明被告有沒有保密的義務、證人有沒有保密的義務就是被告跟證人沒保密是嘛所以他會講出去是所以如果證人跟被告沒有保密的義務他會跟記者講因為記者會問他啊OK好那往下看啦好我們往下看齁那記者知道了"},{"start":7738.642,"end":7752.661,"text":"你可以問他說是證人告訴你的還是被告告訴你的嗎你可以問他你可以要求他嗎你們要查如果是證人跟被告沒有保密的義務的人他洩露去了有沒有妨礙秘密偵查"},{"start":7754.957,"end":7777.276,"text":"這個我們最多啦最多就是依照第6條的規定就是跟他講說小市的如果公開揭露偵查資訊程序內容要見會發生什麼不好的影響你只是告訴他嘛你不能限制他嘛他告訴記者記者報表出來的他不告訴你是誰告訴他的可不可以記者有沒有不透露下來的人的權利"},{"start":7779.097,"end":7805.516,"text":"這是一個...我們副...副民事長記者可不可以不透露消息來源?那個...跟委員報告那我們的書面報告也有那在他們是依照一些的規範裡面是認為人權公約的規範你認為是他可以不透露是嗎?所以如果記者不告訴你誰跟他講的他可能是被告講的可能是證人講的你連續告訴被告跟證人你們不要亂講都沒有機會啊往下看好那記者如果沒有不公開的義務他有沒有拒絕證詞的權利?"},{"start":7807.557,"end":7808.559,"text":"有沒有拒絕證言的範圍?他不再拒絕證言的範圍"},{"start":7823.032,"end":7839.958,"text":"是嘛所以說部長你們現在認為妨礙偵查不公開如果有媒體報導你們要怎麼辦把記者用證人方式來傳喚用調查洩密罪的方式請他說到底作證一下是誰告訴你的可以這樣做嗎各位報告如果說有這個外面有"},{"start":7847.56,"end":7867.888,"text":"我們有這種我們分擔在處理的話齁我們就是會請記者來當證人那他是證人嘛他是證人他如果被告他接默權嘛對不對他就不講嘛那證人他要義務講嘛對不對有沒有用過這個方式要記者講我們是會問他記者他說保護消息的來源那他他可以拒絕作證嗎他不能拒絕那怎麼辦"},{"start":7869.168,"end":7889.12,"text":"大概193條他這部分有拒絕證言的話他會怎麼樣?可以裁罰三萬元以下裁罰三萬元以下你們有沒有開罰過?以前有開罰過那最近這麼多分分鬧鬧你們有沒有在調查洩密案呢?最近這一連串的所謂的偵查被公開最近有沒有?最近有有"},{"start":7889.98,"end":7918.229,"text":"那查了之後有沒有傳喚記者這個有傳喚記者那記者有沒有作證這個有作證你沒有拒絕證言所以沒有被罰這個我不清楚不過這個要按照那你要不要查一下這個新聞稿裡面齁它裡面有做一個說明的啦有一個說明的這個新聞稿就是9月16號的一個新聞稿所以怎麼樣說明什麼就是說查證信那個記者的是依據消息來是轉述的"},{"start":7919.505,"end":7931.49,"text":"所以他有透露他的消息來源他作證有透露他的消息來源這個消息來源可能是被告可能是證人你們沒有證實但是絕對不是有保密義務的警察司法官是不是這樣的意思辯護人"},{"start":7940.575,"end":7955.524,"text":"所以你們可以跟大家講嘛如果記者知道了他也交代了消息來源了只要沒有保密義務的那三種人你沒辦法他嘛他就沒有保密義務是的好來接下來我們往下一條來那個那個副秘書長"},{"start":7958.568,"end":7986.088,"text":"現在記者如果說記者說我為了我們保護消息來源希望未來修法刑訴第182條比照182條列入醫師、藥師、心理師等等等這些人你們司法院的看法怎麼樣新聞自由啊你們用證人傳喚我我要告訴告訴你是誰告訴我的啊那如果說我要保密呢要列入182條啊你們的態度怎麼樣刑訴是你們管的"},{"start":7990.837,"end":8015.363,"text":"哪個國家有在我們類似刑訴第182條把新聞工作者列入得拒絕證言的權利?有沒有?來回去查一下我希望最後一題希望你們會同其他機關包括如何去研議護照註銷防止逃亡嚴防這些刑事偵查當中可能的被告或招通緝的人"},{"start":8016.348,"end":8018.79,"text":"至於媒體是否能適用包括偵查不公開以及他有沒有刑訴第182條可以偵略適用的對象他有拒絕證詞的權利這個請司法院也去了解各國的情況給我們回答好不好"},{"start":8044.508,"end":8061.828,"text":"我今天的題目就是說大家討論偵查不公開其實也是在討論我們國內的新聞自由華盛頓郵報當年在水門事件在越戰調查報告當中都有類似的情況他們的最高法院也就做出對新聞自由的保障"},{"start":8062.549,"end":8079.597,"text":"那如果未來我們台灣有明確的規定那麼新聞自由他想辦法去發掘知識想辦法去滿足社會大眾知的權利如果我們要限制他就要從修改法律來著手而不是在這邊改一些什麼框定一個採訪範圍啦限制我們檢察官跟記者接觸啦"},{"start":8083.478,"end":8106.469,"text":"這些都不能夠杜絕跟防止在新聞自由的情況之下媒體就其他無偵查保密義務的人的身上取得類似這些案情的來源造成了我們偵查不公開三個部分為了避免審判不公平為了避免侵害隱私避免這些情況發生副部長同不同意?同意部長要不要坐?要好謝謝"},{"start":8110.562,"end":8130.989,"text":"好 謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行詢討我們現在先宣告一下我們剛剛本來宣告11點要處理臨時提案但是剛剛那個吳世耀委員有提出請求所以我們待會會在吳世耀委員詢討完畢之後再進行臨時提案的處理好 謝謝"},{"start":8133.226,"end":8140.928,"text":"主席有請部長、廉政署、調查局、警政署部長請問您你有看過貓玩老鼠嗎?"},{"start":8157.795,"end":8182.654,"text":"你有在滑短影片嗎?沒有不管是Youtuber啊還是說Rio啊還是說Trey啊還是說Tiktok啊你有在滑短影片嗎?沒有我因為太忙了我沒有時間去如果你有滑短影片你一定會看過貓玩老鼠的短影片因為在這些短影片上面是非常紅的那你知道貓是怎麼樣玩老鼠的嗎?"},{"start":8185.865,"end":8188.828,"text":"負責 我不清楚負責負責負責負責負貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼�"},{"start":8213.198,"end":8225.188,"text":"我沒有養貓所以我不清楚我告訴你部長你怎麼會沒有看過現在就是活生生血淋淋法務部在玩貓玩老鼠啊你知道在玩誰嗎我們的檢調司法單位在玩誰你知道嗎就在玩柯文哲就在玩柯文哲我先跟部長說"},{"start":8240.202,"end":8262.092,"text":"柯文哲如果貪污受賄今天違法犯紀我贊成今天我們司法查辦他把他關起來可是今天在柯文哲案件上我跟部長說真的是說實在話真的是太過分啦看不下去偵查不公開"},{"start":8263.991,"end":8292.768,"text":"被凌辱到這種程度是司法之恥是法務部跟檢調之恥我當然知道部長你跟我講了一百遍說不是檢察官放的沒關係我後面再跟你慢慢講我想請教一下我在透過立法院新聞知識庫去查過去三個月有關柯文哲的新聞找到了4057則這個資料庫沒有包括大多數的網媒跟電子媒體"},{"start":8294.31,"end":8303.883,"text":"裡面琳瑯滿目阿都是偵查大公開的新聞阿我整齊幾個新聞就叫部長阿好不好我想請教就在今天的新聞"},{"start":8305.222,"end":8305.482,"text":"簡連：喔!"},{"start":8305.482,"end":8331.708,"text":"廉政署也進來啦!偵辦金華城容積率弊案．懷疑前臺北市長、民眾黨主席柯文哲明知違背法律開綠燈讓金華城取得超高容積率涉土利．亦懷疑柯文哲受賄其中一種可能管道就是包含虛擬貨幣簡連日前搜索時扣到柯文哲一個冷錢包"},{"start":8332.828,"end":8360.518,"text":"正在破解當中來想請教部長我幫你回答啦齁你一定說這不是檢察官放的嘛對不對這是不是檢察官放的我相信不是檢察官而且你相信啊我相信你上次也相信說今天你上次也相信說今天大法官實質廢死之後齁然後法官會同意你的申請羈押不把那37個死刑犯放出來啦但你相信有用嗎"},{"start":8363.1,"end":8371.054,"text":"部長,你會相信能夠去左右法院的判決嗎?你會相信真的能夠代表檢察官沒有洩密嗎?"},{"start":8373.288,"end":8399.422,"text":"我只問啊,你就是一句相信檢察官我告訴你啦,北檢最聰明啦,說無法證實啦北檢跟我講無法證實啦因為我沒辦法去干涉、指導、解悟各樣,所以那你要相信什麼?你一不干涉、二不指導、三不了解、四不查雜你現在跟我講相信,相信有意義嗎?來沒關係,我跟你講因為你回答太多遍,我可以幫你倒背如流不是檢察官放的啦,結束啦"},{"start":8400.402,"end":8418.583,"text":"那我想請問齁 如果檢聯真的扣了這個那個冷錢包 不關冷錢包啦 反正任何證物啦 扣了以後請問 會經手哪些人偵查訊息會經手哪些人 檢察官一定會有嘛 懲辦檢察官這個這個我不清楚 反正會接觸到拜託"},{"start":8420.319,"end":8431.166,"text":"法務部長你是幹過檢察官的你要不要請主席來開示一下因為對個案會介紹有所謂有所謂的主席我會議詢問啦民進黨最愛打開時間暫停我中止我會議詢問因為這個問題要問專業嘛主席請教我會議詢問一下法務部不肯回答請問你身為檢察官當過檢察官我不是稱辦檢察官沒關係啦沒關係部長你先休息一下我問專業的你今天你當過檢察官你不懂問專業的嘛專業的來啊"},{"start":8450.7,"end":8463.418,"text":"主席會議詢問我想請教主席今天如果真的收到柯文哲冷錢包請問除了檢察官會所謂的經手這個訊息之外還有誰"},{"start":8465.331,"end":8466.551,"text":"部長 專業檢察官示範什麼叫做回答問題"},{"start":8494.229,"end":8512.913,"text":"他講的錯了嗎?我們主席說的錯了沒有?有沒有錯?我準備這是要跟委員報告就是反正第五條你一開始跟我講你不知道現在你終於要準備了謝謝主席幫你示範你開始準備我不談談那個沒有關係來來來我告訴你喔我要到我要的答案了啦你會不會再補充沒關係來 廉政署是你放的嗎?我們嚴守偵查部門欸欸欸 非常好啊你也不知道啊因為不是你不是承辦人啦對不對來 警政署"},{"start":8524.011,"end":8552.014,"text":"警察放的嗎?這個案警察應該沒有接觸非常好來 我們請司法院司法院我們的副秘書長各位請上來一下法官會放嗎?不會嘛太完美了 通通都不放鐵定是柯文哲律師放出去整柯文哲啊柯文哲太英明了搞一個律師去整他一天到晚放消息整死柯文哲原來那隻貓"},{"start":8554.082,"end":8557.123,"text":"不是司法檢調是柯文哲律師欸來來部長部長你相信嗎柯文哲那麼蠢阿搞一個律師一天到晚洩他的消息弄他阿"},{"start":8567.463,"end":8588.696,"text":"所以我要跟你講 沒關係 我知道 因為我說我哪裡沒辦法啦你一直跟我講不是檢察官 對不對 證書也否認 廉政署也否認然後呢 司法院也否認啊 大家都否認啊 否認得非常開心啊 對不對我也沒辦法 因為我不是檢察官 我不是偵查主體啦我也沒有偵查工具啦 偵查主體是誰 犯罪偵查主體是誰"},{"start":8597.383,"end":8615.667,"text":"回答我嘛 不然我要會議詢問 不要逼我會議詢問嘛來 會議詢問 主席 時間暫停犯罪偵查主體 請問我們主席是誰啊 他不告訴我不知道目前我國是單一偵查主體是由檢察官非常謝謝檢察官三個字你耗我10秒鐘再問你偵查主體是誰檢察官對不對啊 就檢察官啊"},{"start":8623.365,"end":8648.805,"text":"所以我要跟部長說啊來我來問你下一個問題請問洩漏秘密啊洩漏偵查中的秘密是犯哪一條罪啊那個刑法132條第一項嘛公務員洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防以外一秘密之文書、圖畫、消息、物品除三年以下有期徒刑偵查不公開被打破不是行政範疇的問題"},{"start":8650.633,"end":8677.196,"text":"偵查不公開被打破是犯罪問題沒錯吧?如果有人洩密是犯罪問題吧?這個如果有的具體事項我們就會演講到終於我覺得部長經過我們會議主席再三的來去回答問題之後現在部長回答問題稍微比較順暢一點點我告訴你來那我就問啦我上次問了你一個案子你說你不認同"},{"start":8679.172,"end":8703.192,"text":"竊盜案的偵查主體是誰?犯罪答對了嘛當然都是檢察官嘛阿如果發生兩千件竊盜案今天我問部長說欸奇怪啦一件都沒抓到欸一件都沒起訴欸一件都沒判刑欸然後部長跟我講阿這不是檢察官偷的你能夠用這句話交代我嗎"},{"start":8706.707,"end":8722.393,"text":"當然不能啊那我同樣問你啊這麼多 你的法務部都列幾千件啦我大概數字跟你講然後到現在為止你起訴幾件又處分了45件我起訴啦 犯罪耶我不講行政處分 我講起訴幾件啦"},{"start":8724.539,"end":8741.568,"text":"他是犯罪事實 如果有洩密就是犯罪事實啊這個 我想偵查不公開不是就一定就會成立一百三十二我告訴你當然你不抓就不成立嘛還不簡單我告訴你我今天如果說我們法務部說我跟你講竊盜我跟你講我只要證明不是檢察官弄的我不抓竊盜也不成立啊"},{"start":8743.527,"end":8768.752,"text":"你現在脫離人民感情多遠啊我今天講的還不只是柯文哲我講的是犯罪的偵查不公開已經琳瑯滿目到可以百貨公司陳列商品啦剛剛委員講的說七千多件那個是屬於媒體的報導的那個不是是我要講是媒體有報導的新聞我告訴你你們自己都知道媒體報導的新聞是這樣還搞了七千多件不只七千多件今天上半年加兩千件是九千多件你們成長速度非常快來我跟你講"},{"start":8773.593,"end":8788.244,"text":"我剛剛講忍錢包因為只有這一件來週刊報導柯文哲隨身諜內的金主名單黃崇仁董事長名列其中請問是不是檢察官放我幫你回答不是檢察官不用查了"},{"start":8789.325,"end":8814.049,"text":"週刊報導：民眾黨主席涉及金華城弊案建聯．發動搜索前要貼身帳房舉止許子瑜出貨幣風頭．如今更掌握科下達重要指示給舉止．要他保護好手上400萬．還要到民眾黨拿錢請問有沒有洩密．我幫你回答沒有．因為不是檢察官放的．所以沒有洩密罪柯文哲被找到閒私簡訊．柯文哲USB寄的審慶金1500．柯文哲圈圈叉叉點點點"},{"start":8818.49,"end":8829.505,"text":"我告訴你過去這三個月你們現在司法檢調掌握偵查訊息一天到晚公開然後你跟我講不是檢察官放的不是廉政署放的結束了"},{"start":8831.36,"end":8847.709,"text":"那我才跟你講為什麼把偵查不公開廢掉嘛接觸那個第5條那個作為報的第5條裡面來我想請教我們就來問下一個問題阿偵查內容程序的我想問問問部長齁來看有沒有有沒有好好的去查案阿好不好你跟我講查不到這樣"},{"start":8848.869,"end":8877.929,"text":"偵查不公開事實放在眼前齁你不去查查了是犯罪啦 查到是犯罪啦查不到就無能啦就這麼簡單那我馬上來跟您提供一個訊息啊請問部長你們到底不是沒去查啦你們有去查三立記者啦 對不對有查過三立記者如果今天齁你們已經發現齁有人公開指稱調查官跟特定媒體合作洩露這個偵查資訊有人公開表示齁他就是"},{"start":8878.969,"end":8893.742,"text":"特定檢察官跟特定媒體合作洩露偵查資訊請問我們今天局長我們部長會不會去查我們請局長回答好了來來來調查局局長來局長副局長會不會去查有人公開直接講啦"},{"start":8898.308,"end":8920.382,"text":"如果公開有這樣的訊息的話我們一定會去瞭解一定會去查一定會 保證感謝你馬上提供你約談一個人之前我要問再問部長三立記者事件如果有人公開聲稱知道是哪間媒體跟哪個檢察官合作法務部要不要去確認一下約談一下至少要不要"},{"start":8922.874,"end":8949.597,"text":"剛剛局長說要,你不要跟我講就不要了那個行訴228條,如果說有真的違反偵查本官有涉及到132條好啦好啦,那局長你上來,局長你上來我對部長我已經是尊敬到無以復加了啦每個問題都要給我繞一大圈來,請問局長你剛剛答應說要查嘛,對不對?沒錯吧?對啊,如果有人就說要知道哪些媒體跟哪個檢察官合作啊、洩密啊,要不要查?"},{"start":8950.72,"end":8967.312,"text":"喂你剛講是調查官如果是調查官的話齁我們一定會去調查又要推給法務部啦來沒關係請放影片哪個檢察官特地會跟哪個媒體配合這個大家都很清楚來來哪個檢察官他知道哪個檢察官喔會跟哪個媒體他知道哪個媒體喔欸都超級具體啦查不查啊"},{"start":8980.174,"end":8996.983,"text":"先約談一下柯建民吧他都公開講他知道啦那你要不要查一下也許他就是他跟你你查了以後他說冷銷我也可以接受啦但是你已經講過你要不要查對不對不要講個案今天所有的案件都類似這個狀況以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請戴氏保委員發言"},{"start":9019.046,"end":9041.133,"text":"謝謝主席這個先進有請法務部的部長麻煩部長以及NCC的翁代理主委翁主委早還有這個廉政署的馮署長以及調查局的吳副局長麻煩"},{"start":9050.841,"end":9078.535,"text":"幾位長官這個剛剛看到部長很辛苦一直在defense偵查不公開的事情其實你現在隨便到台灣的任何的城市從北到南從南到北任何的一個角落去問張山理事隨便問我們偵查有沒有公開或者說偵查不公開"},{"start":9080.424,"end":9099.322,"text":"百分之一百的受訪者都會告訴你我們如果講偵查不公開叫做笑話一則從最近的看到柯文哲的事情一路的好像北檢跟這個週刊是聯合作戰了"},{"start":9100.396,"end":9124.427,"text":"穿同一條褲子的好像是同一個單位的部長難道你你不覺得就外面我我就告訴你外面現在看到的是什麼看到說週刊報個料然後呢媒體就開始大幅報導真正節目就播然後那個就造成輿論上的一個類似裁判我原來就不相信了"},{"start":9126.175,"end":9138.621,"text":"我原來都不相信了後面一奇怪怎麼他一播一登然後呢這個媒體再一登再一真人節目再一講那過兩天都真的都真的"},{"start":9140.031,"end":9168.524,"text":"可見得這個洩密很嚴重阿部長你講一下我認為媒體的報導有它的一個媒體報導是有它的天子它那個報導大部分都就是捕風捉影嘛演繹嘛那媒體的一個娛樂的一個效果嘛那我相信我們都有嚴格要求我們自己所屬的單位都要嚴格落實偵查不公如果有查到有這些的違反偵查不公我們就是淹犯了那我想這個我們"},{"start":9169.164,"end":9175.127,"text":"你們調查結果都沒有啊都說沒有違反不公開都說沒有公開啊我們第一個線一定要是從那個媒體我們要請媒體來約談媒體嘛你們辦了幾屆我們總共有15屆這幾年了有15屆有成立最近最近因為最近柯P的事情柯P的事情讓了瘋狗魚魚哪一屆今天有一屆什麼時候辦的"},{"start":9196.072,"end":9197.393,"text":"所以柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過"},{"start":9206.557,"end":9229.342,"text":"現在有在分案在瞭解就是調查到底是...都沒有報告!抗議者案子都沒有報告!現在有在偵辦啊!蛤?有在偵辦啊!有嗎?不!你剛剛說一件!花零的!那個那個就成立處分因為這是處分已經調查後成立的違反偵查不公開的是有一件但是現在委員會關心的這些現在的這些媒體在報導的這些那個北捷有在分案在處分"},{"start":9230.242,"end":9235.904,"text":"我原來啊還對你們有抱一絲絲的覺得說哎呀我相信司法啦相信法務部啊結果看到前幾天有個新聞媒體講說要把舉子列為被告欸今天果然被列為被告啊吼吼有夠準啦媒體這麼厲害這如果不是你們洩露出去了怕死了不愛審他都講了前幾天講了要把舉子列為被告啊就已經列為被告了有夠準啦有夠準啦"},{"start":9259.412,"end":9260.233,"text":"什麼還厲害不公開的是程序內容所得新證都不可以公開結果現在公開得一塌糊塗啊"},{"start":9278.695,"end":9281.338,"text":"這個不能夠說是我們洩漏的如果說這是真的有這回事也不能說我們洩漏因為可以接觸到這些資訊的人實在是太多了這個委員你有細看那個作業報第5條第6條你就可以很清楚"},{"start":9299.219,"end":9310.347,"text":"這裏面包括偵查系統的、調查的我提醒你啊我提醒你啊檢察院糾正過警政署及調查局檢察院正式糾正警政署調查局洩密違反偵查不公開請教那個翁代理主委啊"},{"start":9322.267,"end":9341.416,"text":"委員好他們在媒體揭露有部分是真的有部分是假的這部分你們要不要去查一下這個東西報告委員這個我們都有受理民眾來申訴之後我們就按照那個有一個SOP就是我們會去把這個那個內容測錄帶調出來然後請"},{"start":9343.557,"end":9353.949,"text":"那個相關的當事人呃陳述意見那有現在有11件已經在處理了最近有沒有關於柯文哲的事情有沒有受理有有幾件幾件呃"},{"start":9356.024,"end":9357.405,"text":"提到我們那個節目內容廣告諮詢委員會那有一定的時間"},{"start":9385.786,"end":9390.607,"text":"法務部的正部長還有翁代理主委你們兩個責任很重現在你們兩個由於消極的不作為或者故意的配合特別是法務部現在已經跟靜州幹事綁在一起了你們完全綁在一起了綁在一起了故事大家的了解就很簡單你們有檢察官怎麼樣直接進監"},{"start":9414.394,"end":9417.378,"text":"這個沒有證據這個沒有證據丟出來丟出來然後我話沒有講你不要急嘛然後呢就透過這樣子媒體這樣子操作就輿論定罪"},{"start":9432.022,"end":9435.666,"text":"這個要辦人的講證據我們絕對支持法務部嚴格去辦任何的貪污犯沒有人反對沒有人反對但是你們這樣赤裸裸的違反偵查不公開特別是跟特定的媒體這樣子合作操作沒有人能認同沒有人可以接受我也沒辦法認同那個委員就是說"},{"start":9453.246,"end":9453.546,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長"},{"start":9480.089,"end":9504.762,"text":"誰在摧毀司法的公信力誰在摧毀司法的公信力從今天的質詢現場我們看得非常清楚讓政治力介入司法偵辦讓政治力假借著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討事實上是罪行對於個案"},{"start":9508.266,"end":9535.515,"text":"進行政治攻防的場域就在今天此時此刻的司法法制委員會就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場我覺得這一屆的立法院真的是素質無比之低啊這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊抱歉我是司法法制委員會的"},{"start":9536.567,"end":9557.768,"text":"我真的要承認這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的為什麼因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台假借著公器都在介入個案都在討論個案"},{"start":9560.049,"end":9583.227,"text":"如果今天是要討論偵查不公開好我們就制度面來談可以把制度做得更好那為什麼我剛剛坐在台下我真的是不忍阻堵啊有委員公然針對個案今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成什麼變成柯文哲變成冷錢包變成橘子可以這樣嗎"},{"start":9585.543,"end":9587.624,"text":"民進黨執政之後．面對司法改革．我們知道要趕快來趕進度．因為"},{"start":9614.881,"end":9632.118,"text":"我從小到大就聽過一句話歡迎是國民黨開的部長法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候誰講的那個歷史現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有"},{"start":9634.204,"end":9649.708,"text":"法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場"},{"start":9661.024,"end":9685.121,"text":"所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公"},{"start":9685.962,"end":9712.461,"text":"要讓司法改革往前走 民進黨執政之後 獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議 民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法 我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力 當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法 來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化"},{"start":9713.8,"end":9739.516,"text":"民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁"},{"start":9740.316,"end":9753.957,"text":"所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛 對不對"},{"start":9755.191,"end":9780.948,"text":"當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁"},{"start":9782.287,"end":9804.943,"text":"司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年"},{"start":9812.208,"end":9833.477,"text":"而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調"},{"start":9835.467,"end":9857.348,"text":"9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會再做的一次民調有信心又回到47"},{"start":9860.353,"end":9860.453,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9869.557,"end":9895.965,"text":"偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大"},{"start":9897.372,"end":9913.846,"text":"最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力"},{"start":9915.598,"end":9934.127,"text":"這就是政治力不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些的偵查的內容程序的"},{"start":9934.787,"end":9935.948,"text":"全部都歸給你們來承擔 太不公平"},{"start":9955.171,"end":9983.84,"text":"太不公平而且媒體的很多的報導他可能是捕風捉影他得到是不是有一個或是問他一句話就整個衍生了很多的因為他們也會做功課嘛所以您可以管理的督導的是我們檢調的同仁司法工作者其他有太多可能洩密的壓力破口你沒有辦法管得到嘛提審羈押程序的那一段我沒辦法去處理啊是所以呢下一頁"},{"start":9985.487,"end":10012.323,"text":"司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道四﹗針對拎北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢"},{"start":10014.032,"end":10036.067,"text":"來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的"},{"start":10042.217,"end":10044.339,"text":"黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛 對不對"},{"start":10052.372,"end":10057.313,"text":"如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的"},{"start":10080.953,"end":10098.983,"text":"就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來扭頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊"},{"start":10102.096,"end":10103.397,"text":"再下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊"},{"start":10120.891,"end":10123.213,"text":"任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中"},{"start":10150.734,"end":10155.593,"text":"這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?"},{"start":10163.521,"end":10180.447,"text":"好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案"},{"start":10186.01,"end":10214.73,"text":"來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議"},{"start":10216.089,"end":10221.233,"text":"國內有在野黨委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外"},{"start":10237.424,"end":10260.308,"text":"也有協力者一起來鬥臭司法中國也可以把台灣的司法司法查閉來搞認知作戰這就是我們共同面對的困難我後面沒有辦法提喔偵查不公開我們還是想方設法盡量做有任何個案如果有涉及檢調內部可能的洩漏該查就查該辦就辦這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦"},{"start":10264.073,"end":10280.379,"text":"好謝謝時間到謝謝謝謝部長等一下我質詢的時候我會跟你談論什麼叫干涉個案你剛剛那邊胡說八道等一下我們再來講好那待會我們現在先處理臨時提案的部分部長請回好來那個臨時提案部分請宣讀"},{"start":10291.289,"end":10309.589,"text":"臨時提案一,修正本略以,要求法務部於兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告,內容因並含一,演繹案件起訴後得公開之新聞檢討報告項目,適度揭露檢討過程結論,括弧不僅僅是檢討建樹,處分人次,還有如何避免再度發生"},{"start":10310.149,"end":10339.272,"text":"非僅單純之統計數字．使能澄清檢討之力度．讓國人看到法務部捍衛程序爭議之破例與決心．並還給檢察官乾淨的司法環境。二、研議全國各地檢及所屬偵查機關．強化事法性監督．針對已增結之案件．除各機關檢討小組外．建立高等檢察署之複合機制．包括各偵查機關檢討小組審議案件時．若所檢討之案件有澄清人關乎檢舉人．研議是否請澄清人．"},{"start":10339.932,"end":10364.378,"text":"或所委任之人到會陳述意見之機會．並將審議結果及理由以書面告知。指定由天下第一檢美譽之臺灣臺北地方檢察署作為貫徹偵查不公開制度之示範機關．劃設採訪禁止區．落實門禁．將拜訪之外界人士．包括媒體記者進出管制區登記．並設記者接待室．獨立與檢察官辦公空間住所．建立其他防範違反"},{"start":10365.738,"end":10391.312,"text":"偵查不公開制度之具體措施再請全國各檢察署檢察長檢討後由立法院司法及法制委員會則起考察提案人委員吳宗憲、聯署人委員黃國昌、羅志強宣讀完畢請問各位委員就臨時提案的部分有沒有要補充說明因為這個文字部分有跟提案有跟那個機關溝通過好請說"},{"start":10395.259,"end":10406.459,"text":"這個有文字有做過修改這是我是可以接受但是我是在這邊希望齁這個一二三第四段齁這裡這樣子一一點名個案齁"},{"start":10408.137,"end":10423.905,"text":"然後說這個我是覺得是不是可以哪一個哪一個第4段復查從108年爆發大大大大大大大這些個案然後這些案子我是因為他這個我是覺得說我們在臨時提案裡面是不是不要"},{"start":10425.424,"end":10450.76,"text":"不要去指名哪一些個案我覺得比較好說偵查自108年起之案諸多重大案件以這樣子的方式來呈現你在這裡你把高鴻安的名字把什麼這些都寫上去我覺得都不厚道啦我們提案若不是必要的文字我是覺得希望能夠做修這一次我們把這個個案的名稱做一些比較這個這個"},{"start":10457.398,"end":10483.625,"text":"請問其他委員有沒有什麼意見我想主席 張偉也是檢察官出身的那我們覺得呢 最後的要求的做法我們是經過這樣的修改後是可以接受但是你在底下的三點 內容應併含第三 指定由天下第一檢美譽之臺灣臺北地方委員或什麼不管"},{"start":10484.847,"end":10504.865,"text":"其實我想這個主席江心比心這個其實所謂的美譽跟第一檢或直接指名哪一個檢察署其實我們可以說要求法務部就責定地方檢察署來落實這個案子"},{"start":10506.676,"end":10533.112,"text":"是不是這樣比較我們覺得比較可以因為法務部已經講過很多次了會這麼做但是沒有永遠都沒有成果出來那因為北檢目前是呃比較重大案子最多的地方所以我們才會希望說由北檢來去來去做這個示範的地檢署讓別的地檢署可以跟著跟著一起做這樣我了解好沒啦那個我還沒講完啦OK是"},{"start":10533.692,"end":10554.756,"text":"因為過去本席在關心那個保單解約常在的問題我們也知道北檢跟士林地檢他們都承受了相當大的案量那我是覺得考察到各地方法院我們都能夠體恤臺北地方委員跟士林地方法院民事執行處這樣的壓力我們去分散那如果用這個角度來考量"},{"start":10555.316,"end":10577.631,"text":"是否相對的士林地方檢查署是否會比北檢是更適切的一個地方我是參考啦因為說我們要考量到這些沒有錯這個提案人認為呢重中之重啊最多的媒體最集中的我們就先來做但是某個角度上來講要考量到如果有其他比較有能力落實具體做好"},{"start":10578.231,"end":10602.004,"text":"避免偵查不公開在媒體的新聞報導之下被破功的我們是不是有這個考量啦 建請我們提案人可以參佐因為我也是提案人 所以我跟各位委員報告一下因為對 剛剛那個鍾召偉有提到說北檢確實那個業務量非常重但是以我自己的檢查經驗能夠落實這樣子反而是降低檢察官的"},{"start":10602.964,"end":10619.702,"text":"工作量他不需要再去應付很多跑到辦公室的記者這個確實是可以讓工作單純那當然我就是以我自己的工作經驗我去做這樣的思考那目前北檢還是這個重大案件比較多的地方"},{"start":10622.045,"end":10626.349,"text":"我這樣建議啦這個結論我遵照大家的意思啦但是從第第4段復查從108年等等等等"},{"start":10639.92,"end":10659.787,"text":"這一段整段我建議把它給刪除掉然後呢並含第三個並有指定天下第一屆美譽的什麼什麼講這個我覺得這些都墜語了我之所以這樣講的原因第四段要刪掉的原因是我不只再一次在司法法制委員會來提出來"},{"start":10661.427,"end":10689.882,"text":"偵查不公開不是這幾年才發生的事我說從以前我就很對這個我就很感冒啦不管誰之政啦我覺得都不應該去違背啦因為啊第一個法有明文第二個是這一個你整個法務部你三聲五令要求大家偵查機關你掌握有更高的這樣的一個偵查的一個訊息啊你有這樣一個優越的一個地位啊不應該隨便去揭露"},{"start":10691.483,"end":10713.804,"text":"這個偵查主體裡面幾乎大家都是水有磚金的都是專業人士要比外界更知道這樣的一個分寸所以我針對的是說沒有必要去講到這幾年從108年這幾個我是覺得整段都劃掉這個是長期以來就存在這第一個請大家做一個參考第二個就是說"},{"start":10715.492,"end":10733.443,"text":"要指定台北地檢署就台北地檢署啦不要去什麼他是天下第一檢台北地檢署當然數值很高啊數值當然很高啊也很累啊沒有錯啊可是我們就直接立法院的文字裡面就直接去講說我們要的話就做成決議就台北地檢署當一個示範機關我沒意見但是整段還要刻意這個"},{"start":10735.425,"end":10751.744,"text":"這個現在這案子不是就是臺北地檢署在偵辦嗎?他又本身又是當事人啊那個跟莊委員報告我主要是看到因為這一次的那個王檢察長北檢的王檢察長他上任的時候他的宣誓裡面其中一個就是要落實偵查不公開我懂你的意思"},{"start":10755.808,"end":10778.565,"text":"我們要的都是看結果啦真的不公開我們都已經講了多少年了我今天早上我都很含蓄耶媽媽嘴那個當年你都是一個偵查的團隊我只是講結論而已你知道嗎我跟你講你們齁那個中委員其實你剛剛講那個我就想讓你講沒關係當年弄錯的警察官是別人我是進去救"},{"start":10779.406,"end":10781.708,"text":"我再跟你報告一下就是說為什麼我們會說北檢而不是要求全國就是因為我們認為說"},{"start":10798.625,"end":10825.159,"text":"我沒意見我的意思就是說我們立法院的文字不用刻意去講說指定由天下第一檢講這一些那搞不好是天下第二檢啊好沒問題沒問題搞不好私立地檢署認為他才是第一啊搞不好我們屏東地檢署說我才是天下第一檢啊對不對謝謝中委員這是檢察官內部的說法沒關係那我剛有聽到中委員的兩項建議跟那個省委員的其中一項是一樣好那還有那個省委員"},{"start":10826.769,"end":10853.07,"text":"好 那我簡單的意見 因為畢竟我不是本委所以我想說先留個記錄第一個就是我贊成剛剛莊委員講的其實在第4段這一些說這個是哪一些案件其實這個沒有什麼必要我覺得是可以拿掉 不然的話這個文燦這個案件說真的這個其實這個我看在座也有蠻多人發表過意見但第二個我要提到的就是因為偵查不公開 今年這一個還是去年的時候有幾位檢察官有寫過那個博士論文"},{"start":10854.031,"end":10878.559,"text":"那裡面常提到這個媒體之所以能夠取得資訊除了第三點這邊提到的就是媒體直接跟檢察官接觸之外有很多的情形都有透過中間人這個中間人千千百百種但法警其實也是其中一種所以如果說未來真的要針對這個做規範的話可能我覺得針對中間人做規範是還蠻重要的我小時候先留個記錄因為這個再加上去今天這個臨時提案應該就討論不完了"},{"start":10880.62,"end":10906.388,"text":"但第二個我覺得很重要的就是因為我看到之前這個文章案件在3個月以前的時候我記得這個趙偉也有這個吳宗憲趙偉也有在媒體上發言嘛對不對所以就是已經離開的人其實照理他也會在這一個的規範裡面所以呢如果是這個樣子的話呢這一些到底有誰可能未來需要做一個盤點給一個參考啦先這樣子謝謝我懂這個意思啦因為假不公開主要是起訴前啦"},{"start":10907.188,"end":10922.482,"text":"所以我說這部分我們可能到時候再精進一下看文字部分要怎麼去修正那這樣就是是不是我們因為時間的關係我們請法務部按照剛剛各位委員的建議然後提出一個修正的文字"},{"start":10923.776,"end":10943.948,"text":"就我們現在這個臨時提案部分,看要怎麼樣,那我們再跟這個助理那邊去做一下討論,然後提出一個…我想不用了,我們就是這邊就…就如果說我們…因為主席是提案人嘛,對,直接處理,我們就第4段把它整段刪掉,看你們覺得…大家覺得有沒有,或是要怎麼修改文字,直接處理4段整段刪掉是不是?對,就是…就是…不用提到個案不是吧"},{"start":10944.988,"end":10965.521,"text":"各案的部分我覺得這個沒問題就是說只要有各案的部分我覺得就是按照剛剛省委員的意見就是我們把它說因為有近年來有多件我這邊的話基本上我也這個因為幾位委員的建議就是認為說第4段就不要把這個具體各案"},{"start":10966.261,"end":10985.631,"text":"相列出來重點是在於說要建立示範區所以第4段就是復查從108年起有諸多重大案件軍不罰有諸多重大刑事案件軍不罰有媒體"},{"start":10987.392,"end":10991.717,"text":"最後建議的第三點大家認為說由天下第一檢美譽這幾個字寫不是很好其實他就是嘲諷的意味我是也可以同意把這幾個字刪掉"},{"start":11006.343,"end":11025.291,"text":"就直接指定臺灣臺北地檢署作為偵查不公開的示範機關好那是不是就依照各位委員的這個方式可以同意是是是我很少同意翁小林講的話今天完全同意我也很少同意你們說的但是我想我們的重點在於說要建立個示範機關好不好好那我們就依就是依剛剛各位委員的那個高見我們辦理好那我們就"},{"start":11041.587,"end":11044.389,"text":"麻煩就我們再宣告一次臨時提案一再修正本第4段修正為復查軍不乏有媒體復查近年諸多"},{"start":11062.489,"end":11083.348,"text":"近年諸多重大刑事案件均不乏有媒體依據知情人士透露報導搜索偵查細節甚或揭露手機對話內容更有搜索現場畫面外洩等情形此類資訊均掌握在司法偵查機關恆情若非傳遞訊息與媒體媒體應難以獲悉"},{"start":11087.639,"end":11106.768,"text":"再修並函的第三點指定臺灣臺北地方警察署作為貫徹偵查不公開制度知識犯機關其餘相同提案人委員吳宗憲、聯署人委員黃國昌、羅志強訓導完畢好謝謝那我們是不是就按照修正後的提案通過"},{"start":11107.793,"end":11118.315,"text":"好 謝謝各位那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員進行詢答那翁曉琳委員詢答完畢之後因為快12點我們就休息5分鐘然後再繼續進行詢答好 謝謝莊委那有請保務部部長麻煩部長委員好"},{"start":11138.621,"end":11159.958,"text":"市部長您好我想今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於現在偵查不公開的問題我們知道其實偵查不公開的規定是定在刑事訴訟法245條就是涉及到整個的司法人員都有這個義務要遵守偵查在偵查程序當中不可以有洩露"},{"start":11160.999,"end":11183.919,"text":"這個相關的資訊資料另外呢對於辯護人律師也有規定不管是在刑事訴訟法第33條還是在律師法的第36條裡面都有相關的規定對於這個在職務上面所窒息的秘密還有資訊是不可以任意洩露的可是呢這麼多年來其實我們真的看到"},{"start":11185.487,"end":11204.553,"text":"相關的問題這個時常的發生那我事實上針對在偵查不公開裡面的這個偵查程序當中有可能會洩露相關資訊或一些秘密的大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的這個檢警調書記官"},{"start":11206.954,"end":11226.509,"text":"律師和媒體大概這三個類型的人可是剛剛其實也有諸多的委員這個沈薄洋委員剛剛有講到了就是除了這些人之外還有中間人也是有可能會洩露的這包括什麼就是包含警警調書機關他們的長官"},{"start":11228.935,"end":11248.961,"text":"以及假設積壓庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務可是我們看到現行的法規裡面偵查不公開的辦法作業辦法裡面其實並沒有就這部分有清楚的規定"},{"start":11251.099,"end":11269.42,"text":"並沒有把它訂的很清楚所以也就是我們今天在討論的就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面它要規範的對象把它明訂清楚那請問現在法務部有進一步的研修要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎"},{"start":11271.199,"end":11295.733,"text":"這部分我們有一個制定一個我們有一個偵查不公開的一個實施的一個方案就是剪掉臉的遵守那個偵查不公開的一個那有包含這個所謂的中間人嗎他的上級長官然後層層的甚至這個傳遞文書的這個作業人員公務員有包含到你們的這個規範的範圍"},{"start":11299.697,"end":11303.241,"text":"有涵蓋到哪些類型?有包含他們的長官嗎?"},{"start":11322.575,"end":11351.667,"text":"這個是沒有包含長官是 所以這很重要這包含到他的上級的長官對不對其實很有可能這個洩露的不是這個基層的公務員而是他的這個上級的長官這不是不無可能我們再看一下下一頁就是我們知道這個你們自己法務部也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分先前也有蠻多委員有提到就是我們自己看到你們的報告書裡面就知道"},{"start":11353.376,"end":11359.54,"text":"你們從108年到112年檢討的件數7000多件然後實際上真的有調查了200多件然後處分的人數15人如果說從最近這半年來講的話這個檢討也有2000多件然後因調查這個件數76件處分的人數只有一位可是呢所有的處罰裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊"},{"start":11376.994,"end":11385.079,"text":"都是基層的檢查或是調查局的人員我真的不相信既然沒有檢察官有違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎"},{"start":11388.914,"end":11401.382,"text":"你們是不是有在包庇你們自己的同仁我想檢察官要洩露自己偵辦的案件對自己偵查是不利的可是這有什麼不利呢?從這麼多歷史的案件看起來他就算是洩露了也不會被處罰從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊"},{"start":11410.367,"end":11411.207,"text":"我相信有一些檢察官他是謹言順行的"},{"start":11428.396,"end":11447.886,"text":"但是也撥發的確是有蠻多的檢察官他跟媒體他或者是說是這可能他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去不是不古可呢我只是要澄清一個事實就要講一個事實這麼多的案件裡面竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分"},{"start":11451.04,"end":11474.52,"text":"這違反大家的這個違反經驗法則不太可能會有這樣的狀況嘛這是一個柯本先生根本跟委員報告事實上會接觸這個很多包括其實媒體的關注一定是有羈押的案件是部長我知道因為你剛剛有說了我也非常同意你的看法會接觸到相關資訊的人很多那所以你們偵查不公開的相關規定就要修要把那個可能會涉及到的"},{"start":11475.2,"end":11501.344,"text":"相關的人士都要納入規範啊然後也沒有一個這個相關行政處罰的規定所以違反了之後呢這頂多就基層人員受到一些懲戒的處處分那你們自己檢察官還有法官也是有可能啊然後司法院有修規定嗎?刑事訴訟法是你們的這個主責的法律這個問題存在這麼久為什麼這個司法院從來沒有說要修法"},{"start":11502.04,"end":11527.677,"text":"還有跟委員報告那個因為有羈押跟提審我們有有在法院有含那個司法院就是說是我知道其實我這個問題對就偵查不公開的相關的規定的這個的議題法務部當然就大家會針對的你們看但是我覺得司法院失職這麼多年來為什麼不好好的把相關的規定修好"},{"start":11530.879,"end":11557.718,"text":"今天剛剛的吳思瑤委員還在說是誰摧毀司法公信力我不客氣的講我覺得其實你們自己司法人員你們就是自己踐踏你們自己的司法專業司法公信力啊老百姓的這個眼睛是雪亮的誰能夠建立起這個公信力誰能夠給他一個"},{"start":11559.565,"end":11561.612,"text":"呃一個信賴大家都很清楚"},{"start":11563.045,"end":11584.351,"text":"對 那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在那些專業委員前面搬弄是非搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬禱鳴萃"},{"start":11590.441,"end":11619.147,"text":"然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討"},{"start":11621.311,"end":11635.86,"text":"然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法"},{"start":11637.592,"end":11658.568,"text":"雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊"},{"start":11661.465,"end":11684.09,"text":"你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面"},{"start":11688.536,"end":11708.332,"text":"所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容"},{"start":11709.313,"end":11721.585,"text":"是我過程泄密罪事實上這個有相關的法定也可以包括個人資料保護法等相關的可以追尋除了犯罪之外然後在律師法裡面的相關的懲戒然後這個行政處罰等等我覺得也都要整體一起來討論嘛對不對然後我們剛講的最重要的就是你偵查不公開規範他所能夠涵蓋的這個範圍對象這部分要明確"},{"start":11735.017,"end":11756.275,"text":"這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定"},{"start":11758.001,"end":11786.703,"text":"要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作為辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作為辦法可是你們偵查不公開作為辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是"},{"start":11788.224,"end":11804.154,"text":"有嗎 有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部 其實它有個概括條款啦概括的那個 但是解釋上可以 如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經機閉已久"},{"start":11809.376,"end":11834.081,"text":"這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個如果違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊"},{"start":11840.277,"end":11851.024,"text":"這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎"},{"start":11852.114,"end":11866.386,"text":"跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是個第一位階的法規"},{"start":11876.203,"end":11878.824,"text":"我們就依據先前宣告休息五分鐘五分鐘後由林國成委員進行詢答 謝謝"},{"start":12212.817,"end":12242.265,"text":"我們現在開始開會我們現在先處理會議時間上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止我們現在請林國成委員進行詢答好謝謝主席我們法務部政部長麻煩部長NCC我們主委翁代理主委"},{"start":12251.36,"end":12278.882,"text":"好我們政部長翁主委我想今天本席啊特別要來請教今天我看主席標這個議題啊就是偵查不公開最後看起來是偵查是大公開那在這裡我要請教當然偵查不公開本來就擁有之法律之規範那確實啊"},{"start":12282.191,"end":12309.991,"text":"過去你們也一直在遵守這些但是我要特別請教鄭部長從柯文哲案在這裡我要請教一個敏感的問題原來京華城的案子是調查局立案在辦但是傳言我們鄭部長下令要移給"},{"start":12312.342,"end":12331.074,"text":"連政署部長有沒有這回事跟委員報告這個沒有這回事那個調查局他那個立案他是最早的是由有人由民意代表來告發的來告發的那這部分是我相信鄭部長在司法界給人家感覺"},{"start":12341.992,"end":12368.433,"text":"確確實實也是為司法捍衛之一個漢子啦但是我沒有想到確確實實當了部長之後看起來似乎偵查不公開真的是偵查公開欸來 伯父還有我們王主委你看一下這個三立電視台他自爆喔剪掉的線已經養了7年"},{"start":12370.516,"end":12396.573,"text":"當然或許是這個記者啊至高提高身價但是部長確確實實他寫出來的還有進週刊寫出來的那個很奇怪啊你們都跟著他的腳步去走所以這個偵查不公開是真的是一個諷刺啊在一個老百姓來講"},{"start":12397.774,"end":12412.495,"text":"我們當民意代表的人必須要把下情上達讓翁主委、讓鄭部長你了解什麼叫做偵查不公開現在老百姓是不相信的耶不定"},{"start":12413.496,"end":12416.179,"text":"柯文哲的案子我們將心比心到底有沒有大公開"},{"start":12436.021,"end":12443.707,"text":"老百姓是認為真的是大公開的部長你撿到這個30秒給你你有什麼看法這個是外界對我們辦人團隊的一個誤解啦這個我再強調啦那這部分這個媒體的這個有北警有給他約談了"},{"start":12459.139,"end":12464.02,"text":"葉檀有什麼用?早上葉檀,下午說牽結。我告訴你啦,我們不要變啦。這個案件還沒結好。好好搬啦。有就有,沒有就沒有。司法本來就勿枉勿重,尤其檢察官,你是要在做偵查動作,其實在偵查,"},{"start":12482.324,"end":12510.079,"text":"本來就是要秘密去做事情去收集對方有利無利之證據而來做偵辦這是你們檢察官之責任啊我們主席過去他的做法不管是現在在立法院他還是這樣做啊所以在這裡我要拜託政部長不要因為柯文哲而就變了樣也不要因為柯文哲真的有犯罪事實你們就是"},{"start":12510.859,"end":12536.657,"text":"你們這是縱容我認為司法要公正所以我特別要提醒我們部長還有我們翁主委針對這個問題真的一定要讓老百姓覺得說我們針對偵查不公開是事實上我們是有在捍衛的這個我要勉勵政部長還有翁主委最後一個我要特別跟政部長"},{"start":12538.168,"end":12552.307,"text":"有一個外勞在去年11月份的時候被車子撞死他死狀很難看我接到這個陳情案子是因為泰國辦事處跟我陳情"},{"start":12553.248,"end":12570.509,"text":"所以我不得要跟鄭部長你來檢舉這個案子是在阻攬這個在阻攬是苗檢所辦結果這個人死了以後當事人也承認說他有撞到東西可是有撞到東西就有因果關聯"},{"start":12572.39,"end":12597.839,"text":"這個嫌疑犯他是喝酒超速可是這個外勞撞下去以後噴到對面的車道那這個對面的車道啊兩部車也把他撵過你說這個硬注意而未注意那這種東西不起訴還OK可是喝酒的人他自己承認喔已經撞到人可是他不曉得撞到什麼"},{"start":12598.459,"end":12617.246,"text":"是應該有英國關係的關聯最後部長我跟你承認我跟你投訴結果檢察官因為他是外勞因為他沒有利害關係人就把他牽結掉不起訴人白白的死掉部長"},{"start":12618.464,"end":12643.419,"text":"今天時間的關係我特別跟你剪輯這個案子部長要跪為過去司法界的深意你該查的一定要查所以沒有人說他是外勞就白白死掉我告訴你啦 部長這都對我們自己的良心欸 這是國際欸這些外勞也是人欸 也是生命欸怎麼就這樣牽結了呢"},{"start":12645.27,"end":12661.42,"text":"怎麼就這樣牽扯呢那現在他喝酒被警察撤出來欸他是有酒精的第二個自己也承認超速第三他也承認撞到東西撞到什麼他不曉得可是這個部分部長"},{"start":12662.361,"end":12684.956,"text":"我今天特別在議事殿堂跟你檢舉我看看你們辦不辦不要偵查不公開連這個也不公開那到最後我開國際記者會這個會一笑國氣啊部長我剛剛跟你檢舉這件案子我希望我希望你把它當成一回事把它查清楚勿妄勿縱"},{"start":12688.86,"end":12705.596,"text":"把事實真相把它查清楚對死者有一個交代不能因為他是移工他是外國人我們就不把司法的公件去把他捍衛部長我現在跟你剪輯這個案件我再送給你部長"},{"start":12706.775,"end":12716.583,"text":"你有什麼看法?那這邊相關的資料請委員提供我們再轉交給那個...不是轉交!我要你部長你要去注意這些事你是檢察官、你是檢察長出身的"},{"start":12718.248,"end":12736.982,"text":"所以我跟你講我不要你去干涉這些他有煙情你部長當然要站出來這是不保障你不可以再跟我搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打"},{"start":12748.311,"end":12753.495,"text":"王主委要記得NCC是獨立機關那我們下一位請林怡警委員進行詢問"},{"start":12782.607,"end":12792.008,"text":"謝謝主席 有請政部長跟調查局副局長好 麻煩政部長副局長委員好"},{"start":12792.541,"end":12817.342,"text":"部長好我想看了今天的題目本席一直關注一個新細已久的問題也就是同樣涉及公開不公開可是他卻從未曾公開也未曾讓世人知曉就是在法務部在促轉會解散後要承接的任務那就是要研擬這個修改促轉條例識別及處置威權統治系統加害者專章"},{"start":12819.502,"end":12834.937,"text":"已故的這個白色恐怖受難者蔡昆林爺爺他曾經很沉痛的向蔡英文總統追問說我想知道究竟是誰殺了我朋友那他的御友蔡秉紅因為這個綠島在叛亂案在蔣介石的指示之下批准槍決"},{"start":12840.663,"end":12859.855,"text":"那在這層層的這個黨國迫害的體制中我們至今沒有辦法辨認正中間到底有哪些加害者造就了這個加害體制那可是蔡昆林爺爺這句話凸顯了台灣在轉型正義的過程當中只看到受害者並未看到加害者"},{"start":12860.675,"end":12865.096,"text":"那我想法務部承接的促轉會這個承接的任務就是我們要來研擬修改這個促轉條例剛剛我提到的識別及處置威權統治時期加害者專章那我想要詢問這個任務我們促轉會解散兩年多了那現在聽說行政院研擬這個專章也已經開了30多次的會"},{"start":12884.8,"end":12905.598,"text":"目前得到的結論是核心爭議的問題並未有普遍的社會共識所以為了讓這個政策越周全、越妥適持續聆聽各界的意見我想請教部長是說在最新的一次行政院推動轉型爭議的預備會議當中我們有看見一絲的曙光就是說諮詢委員有要求法務部"},{"start":12911.022,"end":12924.988,"text":"在今年的第四季前要完成對外預告的這個布版的專章所以請教法務部目前到底我們的立法的這個進度到底怎麼樣能不能給這個社會上一個交代啊謝謝委員的垂詢"},{"start":12928.513,"end":12944.016,"text":"那這一部分我們也積極在進行法制的一個作業本部已經開了12次的一個會議配合行政院的修法那現在都在進行中法制作業進行中那這邊詳細的是不是我們用書面跟委員來做一個好"},{"start":12945.077,"end":12964.475,"text":"只要提醒因為已經要接近年底了然後因為諮詢委員有要求說在這個第四季前你們要提出布版的專章喔所以我想這個時間嘛逼近所以我想期待加快腳步那你再書面來回答我那我想這個就是說再跟大家強調一下因為這個"},{"start":12966.857,"end":12986.477,"text":"我剛提到這個白色恐怖政治受難者蔡寬玉爺爺也好或者這個顏世鴻也好他們都已經過世了那我們如果說我們加快腳步的話那我們真的不知道這些政治受難者特別在這些高齡的爺爺奶奶們他何時可以得知真相"},{"start":12987.558,"end":13006.802,"text":"那另外我想就一點點時間來請教一下那個調查局喔我想關心轉型正義的這個議題的朋友他們都非常關注現在政府內部教育的問題那我想調查局曾經邀請白色恐怖時期的這個受難者政治受難者"},{"start":13007.242,"end":13007.282,"text":"請教局長："},{"start":13029.855,"end":13039.891,"text":"就白色恐怖的歷史教育的部分那你們有沒有整個調查局內部進到正確且明白的歷史教育的責任副局長"},{"start":13041.571,"end":13065.496,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問我想我們調查局以我來說我後年初我就退休了像我這樣的年紀我在調查局我開始分發到外勤工作的時候就是解嚴以後的事情了所以就是因為解嚴以後我們所有的相關過去的法令過去白痴恐怖的這個時代的相關的這些狀況我們新進的調查的同仁我們完全沒有過去的"},{"start":13066.056,"end":13066.176,"text":"主席"},{"start":13092.213,"end":13114.165,"text":"當然期待是最好是如此可是後來講回來是這個有些是所謂的調查局這個所謂的這個這個歷史上的那個傳統的觀念也好我還是剛剛有提到調查局在過去白色恐怖時代確實是有代表一定不可忽略的地位某個程度也是一個加害者"},{"start":13114.565,"end":13120.527,"text":"當然這些都需要來誠實的面對這個歷史所以我想也因為這個地位的特殊所以我想內部當然您剛講我們有一個正確的這個史觀正確的觀念來從事這個調查工作當然最好可是我覺得內部這個教育有正確的史觀的教育這還是很重要所以還是要拜託這個局長就是說正確的史觀的教育要持續持續來完成而且要廣泛"},{"start":13144.036,"end":13145.177,"text":"陳婷菲委員陳婷菲委員陳婷菲委員"},{"start":13162.582,"end":13175.688,"text":"黃鴻薇委員黃鴻薇委員黃鴻薇委員黃孟楷委員黃孟楷委員黃孟楷委員好 那我們請我志強委員代理主席好 請吳宗憲委員詢答"},{"start":13189.845,"end":13208.532,"text":"我們麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長好 有請法務部長、警政署副署長部長 我想說我還是跟你一樣提到偵查不公開的這個部分"},{"start":13209.465,"end":13224.607,"text":"那其實我跟你說我這邊我算是偵查不公開的違反偵查不公開的被害人啦所以你看剛剛中任委熊委員還會虧說半媽媽嘴命案那個時候的事情嘛"},{"start":13225.287,"end":13254.049,"text":"那我覺得你看這個案子其實連被害人都出來講說當初懲辦那個案子然後違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官那我是進去救援幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官連這樣子風馬牛不相及的在幾年後都會被拿來被特定人士拿來做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛"},{"start":13255.485,"end":13277.127,"text":"那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦"},{"start":13278.195,"end":13297.372,"text":"連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的鄭文燦的案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情鄭文燦的案子我從辦"},{"start":13298.553,"end":13314.824,"text":"到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的"},{"start":13316.34,"end":13341.373,"text":"好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一律不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼"},{"start":13342.56,"end":13361.362,"text":"我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的東西我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問"},{"start":13363.112,"end":13390.222,"text":"問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講部長啊你就跟吳思耀委員吳思耀委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子"},{"start":13391.175,"end":13414.028,"text":"那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說"},{"start":13415.731,"end":13433.977,"text":"你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說"},{"start":13435.197,"end":13459.188,"text":"我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他手上伸去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員"},{"start":13464.054,"end":13482.4,"text":"說了這個東西部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們一起主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去去洩漏的因為"},{"start":13485.107,"end":13507.714,"text":"這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講那你不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去了我認為這邊而且講出是不是真的真的我也不清楚部長我也不清楚我認同你講但你沒回答我的問題啊因為你說那我不是部長我部長我問"},{"start":13508.934,"end":13522.913,"text":"你剛回答的我認同但是我沒有你沒有回答到我問題確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣我絕對支持這句話畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來"},{"start":13524.415,"end":13552.411,"text":"所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊"},{"start":13554.158,"end":13580.074,"text":"然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關這"},{"start":13582.684,"end":13600.642,"text":"亂講一通人一大堆所以我要跟你講我自己以前在當我自己以前在在學醫思考官的時候我常跟他們講我以前8N的時候一件事情我開庭問完被告然後我也對他很客氣然後問完之後我讓被告回去了因為我覺得那案子他根本沒有關係是亂告然後"},{"start":13603.229,"end":13623.604,"text":"我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他"},{"start":13624.835,"end":13653.643,"text":"所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體"},{"start":13654.997,"end":13680.969,"text":"這我覺得很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛"},{"start":13683.08,"end":13690.321,"text":"委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在"},{"start":13711.135,"end":13713.856,"text":"你真的覺得被告會把對自己不利的訊息告訴媒體讓媒體報來嗎?這符合人性嗎?剛剛那個"},{"start":13737.429,"end":13751.467,"text":"羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎"},{"start":13752.828,"end":13780.667,"text":"這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人們就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看"},{"start":13781.709,"end":13788.149,"text":"檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說"},{"start":13789.332,"end":13814.319,"text":"媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西"},{"start":13816.328,"end":13833.259,"text":"那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我凹說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以"},{"start":13839.476,"end":13862.672,"text":"講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼"},{"start":13864.401,"end":13891.284,"text":"請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長"},{"start":13892.585,"end":13892.745,"text":"我...我...我..."},{"start":13920.089,"end":13948.035,"text":"我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊"},{"start":13949.212,"end":13949.492,"text":"那個PVT跳一下"},{"start":13974.164,"end":13979.456,"text":"人家直接點名欸 這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面檢察官點名的記者名字欸"},{"start":13980.851,"end":14003.263,"text":"那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事這個有關心的這些所有的報導的這些有都約談嗎我不是說這記者的問題至少有進行檢查官提了那是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談喔有澄清喔那案件還在偵辦中喔所以為什麼對那個我跟你講齁就是"},{"start":14007.885,"end":14021.716,"text":"就我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的甲長這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為"},{"start":14024.946,"end":14045.624,"text":"因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手"},{"start":14047.566,"end":14064.053,"text":"那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或白營的綠營操作成"},{"start":14068.155,"end":14080.882,"text":"賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的檢察官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者"},{"start":14081.761,"end":14108.792,"text":"所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重"},{"start":14110.578,"end":14135.464,"text":"那前幾天有一個說謝果良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯錯我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力"},{"start":14137.523,"end":14164.995,"text":"我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開"},{"start":14166.295,"end":14186.505,"text":"跟委員報告原則上我們是立定有偵查就是刑事單位他有遵刑事我們希望立定是要到遵刑事裡面去的那遵刑事裡面才有完整的錄音錄影設備所以原則上我們就刑事單位是要到遵刑事裡面去那至於派出所"},{"start":14187.205,"end":14205.202,"text":"我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那攀手就不一定有大的攀手有小的攀手沒有所以針對攀手的環境我們就特別立定攀手在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們攀手裡面去"},{"start":14206.242,"end":14234.599,"text":"好 謝謝部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵查人的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體"},{"start":14235.589,"end":14255.1,"text":"好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長然後部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長"},{"start":14266.949,"end":14280.594,"text":"下一位我們請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員現在我們請張其開委員發言"},{"start":14300.627,"end":14320.304,"text":"請保定部長委員好保定你好你剛才說你相信你的檢察官你應該也常常上去看剛剛中線給你們提出來的檢察官論壇大家看一下這個畫面"},{"start":14322.453,"end":14343.929,"text":"這個作者叫做一審的這個檢察官他說他事實上是在對你喊話也是對北檢的北檢這些同仁在喊話他說你們對於現今檢媒一體的亂象這不是只有偵查部公開而已他用一個非常非常重的字眼叫做檢察官跟媒體現在是一體"},{"start":14345.222,"end":14367.159,"text":"媒體、媒體跟檢方變成一體這個亂象你們到現在都沒有積極作為讓檢察官已經失去了人民的信任把檢察官的名氣踩在地上這會使得你們會變成檢方的罪人所以保證 基隆民你說你相信你的檢察官你要去看他們的心聲在你的可以把柯文哲的名字蓋起來"},{"start":14370.134,"end":14387.423,"text":"現在不是在幫柯文哲講話的問題我們在幫台灣的法治幫所有的檢察官檢察官領的是人民的納稅錢 對不對是國家名器啊本來台灣司法是很受敬重的可是你看這次整個偵查不公開這幾年搞成這樣子你不會截然過嗎這個我認為"},{"start":14393.935,"end":14410.424,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導啦齁那這個這個這個檢查論壇齁我相信當然是這次檢查有檢查有這樣的意見那個我們這個檢查論壇就是給大家一個發出意見的一個一個一個平台嘛齁那我也不曉得是不是"},{"start":14411.424,"end":14436.223,"text":"臺北地檢的檢察官這個我也不清楚那我想整個一個偵查部官我想我們都會全力我像我在處理媒體我從來不給獨家我們都是直接發言落實發言的政策對阿你叫他北檢給你學阿北檢你看他背過三十到現在你看他已經每天一個版本這個我們不給這些尤其檯面下次給我我們是完全的一些的這個是"},{"start":14437.404,"end":14454.309,"text":"禁止的這種現在人民但是因為這個實在是因為新聞實在是太社會太矚目了媒體在在在就在無所不用其極嘛無所不用其極那他消息怎麼來的啊消息是不是正確我說實在我不知道"},{"start":14455.117,"end":14474.692,"text":"伯定伯定伯定你講的話馬上就會受到檢驗喔啟示書到時候出來的內容如果是這些媒體講的我跟你講全民都盯著看啦啟示書裡面如果內容是這個媒體先出來那不是北檢從哪邊來內容如果說相互的我們不能夠直接就認定就是因為有通靈啊或作夢啊要不然不是北檢是誰"},{"start":14476.417,"end":14502.267,"text":"所以我這次的資料實在是太多了所以為什麼那麼多接觸為什麼一口就咬定就是檢察官或班人來來來看另外一位檢察官的啦事實上你如果去你的檢察官論壇看現在檢察官自己在反省的人真的很多我覺得我們對你們是有希望的要去多看反省的力量你看這個檢察官他怎麼說你剛剛提說你們是有約談的對不對然後你還澄清了叫這個檢察官在這說"},{"start":14505.106,"end":14525.028,"text":"那一篇你們這個自親文叫什麼北檢治島的大爛劇你們檢察官自己都這樣講啦他直接講說你如果偵查不公開你現在已經沒辦法實現了嘛那乾脆廢掉然後請法務部跟學院開一個叫做如何要如何學會被媒體經營你看多諷刺你自己檢查官就這樣講啊"},{"start":14528.052,"end":14537.317,"text":"那是因為三立的記者直接講阿他說經營你們北檢你們檢調經營7年阿那你沒有更正這個我們有約談喔跟委員報告這個有約談喔這個我們了解這個齁這個這個某姓的記者的記者馬姓的記者這個不是跑司法記者的齁我們不曉得他這個怎麼從何而來我們不曉得你亂講對不對"},{"start":14553.407,"end":14560.229,"text":"他這部分在北檢有約談過了對,他亂講嗎?亂講你們沒有一個責任這個有澄清喔,這個在9月16號的新聞稿有做一個粗暴訊息你澄清後沒問題嗎?人家這樣給你獻醉不只是一個檢察官耶你的北檢被人家打這有澄清什麼?不是我說不對,你這個有這樣嗎?"},{"start":14574.532,"end":14601.721,"text":"這個有澄清是否透明之干你這樣澄清就好了我意思就是說你自己的部署被北檢這樣被人家煽脆配大家動作笑話你就是這樣一個然後你的檢察官還講說你根本就是一個北檢的制導的大爛劇我們是司法院委員委員會NG偵查不公平作為辦法第8條第1項第7款的做適度的一個澄清嘛因為既然社會有這樣的一個捕風捉影的一種所以我們有分擔來做一個處理嘛"},{"start":14603.562,"end":14623.567,"text":"我認為你還有機會去補這個破網阿你不補的話就是剛剛鐘憲講的沒有錯整個檢察官的形象就一直往下掉嘛我們也不希望看到這樣子喔我們希望檢察官是領人民的薪水行國家的公器他是好的我們台灣才有未來嘛是不是這樣所以我們是對你有希望所以我做兩個建議第一個你剛才講你約了媒體來"},{"start":14627.629,"end":14636.526,"text":"剛剛民進黨立委都問你嘛你約了記者去他到底要不要講你剛剛那個答覆是有問題的啊你把他約來他到底是證人還是被告"},{"start":14638.557,"end":14661.819,"text":"是證人還被告?你約這個記者來,是證人還被告?證人阿證人,證人是不是有作證的義務?阿他來啦,他有到我房啦那他有跟你講,他的消息來源嗎?他有如實跟你講嗎?還是你自己找就打起來?這個就我想檢察官有他的偵查的一個手段跟心證吧,我也沒辦法去過問說你到底講什麼,我又不能去過問"},{"start":14662.964,"end":14670.645,"text":"你會不會變成那個基層檢察官,變成個歷史罪人,你形象不錯的,你的形象是不錯的,你要去挽救你的,你這樣會影響到,對不對,要幫你檢查,要做事情,來,我做個具體建議,我看沒你的預算書裡面,檢察司啊,變那個醫生啊,一個檢察司不用了,要一千多萬對不對"},{"start":14692.455,"end":14702.417,"text":"檢察室的副市長有時間嗎來來來變成一千塊錢嘛對不對你第一個項目就是教育訓練費啊我一定會叫市長好好討論一下"},{"start":14704.98,"end":14710.203,"text":"有在受訓?有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":14723.496,"end":14742.881,"text":"有看到成果嗎?你把那個做出來的東西一個禮拜給我好不好?然後第二個我很具體的要求,我講起來,現在只有兩條路嘛你再這樣繼續偵查不公開變成偵查前途路,前途路這筆預算就砍掉嘛你檢察司這樣自己沒辦法保護自己,有負人民的請託啊"},{"start":14745.034,"end":14769.283,"text":"這個費用就是要刪嘛這是一條路嘛第一個是把它做好嘛所以第一個你在一個禮拜內把你們做的怎麼樣去改善偵查不公開這個事情具體的你們的改善計畫或者已經有的給我好不好那第二個更重要喔要提出來提出來以後要怎麼去你們甚至要去辦幾堂這個公聽會或者座談會找專家學者來啊找你們一些形象好一點的啊跟這些北檢的檢察官講啊"},{"start":14770.407,"end":14771.748,"text":"主委好主委其實人民不是只有對檢察官"},{"start":14797.985,"end":14819.676,"text":"對NCC也有很高的期待NCC只要把那個公平做出來就好了嘛你看柯文哲這個事件甚至不要講柯文哲你往前推還有很多的司法案件媒體每天一個劇本後來很多都印證都錯的你現在手上很多檢舉案對不對媒體那個亂象那個檢舉案你會處理嗎都在處理當中所以沒有這個案子現在是有已經有結案的嗎"},{"start":14825.424,"end":14849.945,"text":"現在目前的話,因為都是在9月跟10月所發生的案件你現在將心比心,如果你是被影射、被作文章那個人,你會怎麼想?我沒有,我要求兩個,很簡單的第一個,速度加快,好不好?第一個,你的標準要是一致的你當初怎麼處罰中天的?中天有任何一個新聞有問題你就開始處罰嘛,罰則嘛對不對?後來就把台就關掉了嘛"},{"start":14850.578,"end":14852.281,"text":"市長我們都是依照換照辦法規定來處理啊"},{"start":14862.87,"end":14864.43,"text":"你現在你一個禮拜的送來現在到底有多少檢舉案你的進度是怎麼樣子"},{"start":14892.639,"end":14909.11,"text":"然後具體要求你速度要加快第二個更重要的人民現在都在我剛講過人民很簡單啊人民台灣人民的水準這麼高啊包括部長法務部有沒有好好做事情NCC有沒有做事情人民心中有一把尺啦你們本來形象都不錯的"},{"start":14910.686,"end":14910.806,"text":"阿部長這樣齁"},{"start":14938.231,"end":14965.769,"text":"因為今天部長跟在座的都是偵辦案件的人嘛都是等於是執行法律的那我們不能說自己偵辦案件的人卻自己帶頭犯罪因為偵查不公開這是一個犯違反的話是一個犯罪所以部長這部分可能就要請你們注意說不能說講自己在維護正義然後自己卻其實在傷害正義因為我請教部長一個很簡單的問題就是說教唆他人犯罪是不是成立教唆犯對吧"},{"start":14966.837,"end":14993.126,"text":"部長這你應該懂嘛那如果跟犯罪之人有犯意聯絡或行為分攤是不是成立共同正犯前面教唆犯會成立共犯關係但是後面如果犯意聯絡跟行為分攤會成為共同正犯關係我想這應該沒有問題所以如果在偵查不公開是規範的是公務員講這句話沒有錯可是當非公務員跟公務員共犯一個案子的時候"},{"start":14994.503,"end":15023.452,"text":"這位非公務員會成立犯罪所以我跟部長提醒我們國家的法律有這樣的規定所以不要認為說這個東西只是很多人在外面傳說這個東西只是處罰公務員不處罰非公務員所以我怎麼做都沒關係但事實上不要忘記了這國家的我國的刑法還有規定共同證犯跟共犯這兩種東西所以你只要跟公務員共同證犯或共犯犯罪的話本身也是成立犯罪我想我這話"},{"start":15024.741,"end":15053.502,"text":"就是跟部長建議我還是有這樣的規定好不好部長你可能今天我們的質詢可能讓部長不是很開心啦但我想我們盡到我們的義務我們必須把這東西點出來好 謝謝部長現在我們請廖偉湘廖偉湘廖偉湘蘇清泉蘇清泉陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷"},{"start":15054.522,"end":15057.886,"text":"鄭振淺 高津樹梅 林思敏 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孫成一國內安全調查處處長 陳宇源國家安全維護處處長 葉立欽海洋委員會海巡署副署長 謝慶清巡防組組長 廖雲紅"},{"start":2016.243,"end":2036.173,"text":"特別行動資源中心副主任蘇全成內政部警政署防制組組長陳百祿保安組組長林溫柔內政部消防署整備應變組組長劉鴻汝"},{"start":2042.526,"end":2056.229,"text":"內政部替代藝技社會任性訓練執行中心副執行長卓煥鑫農業部綜合規劃師副司長黃興達畜牧師檢任記證馮一月農糧署署長姚世元"},{"start":2073.679,"end":2096.915,"text":"漁業署代理署長王正芳、經濟部國營事師長胡文忠、國家發展委員會經濟發展副處長陳美菊、國家科學及技術委員會南部科學園區管理局副局長李信昌、"},{"start":2102.642,"end":2130.757,"text":"工程技術研究發展處專門委員張嘉恆、交通部綜合規劃師司長張垂榮、航港局副局長陳冰泉、數位發展部主任秘書胡貝蒂、熱性建設師副司長吳明仁、"},{"start":2134.898,"end":2162.561,"text":"知通安全署副組長陳思漢衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀醫事師專門委員郭威中食品藥物管理署研究員王兆儀補充介紹羅美玲委員"},{"start":2168.922,"end":2174.693,"text":"那請問在場的委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處好 議事錄確認"},{"start":2179.363,"end":2183.725,"text":"危機以及我方相關的應處作為進行報告並被質詢,請國防部顧立雄部長上台報告。」"},{"start":2213.662,"end":2234.728,"text":"主席、各位委員先進以下請就針對解放軍未來可能透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自主、關鍵產業基礎、設置能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無疑之應作為就本部的部分作為"},{"start":2235.808,"end":2249.678,"text":"本部部份實施報告,依簽言,中國近年應用心理、輿論及論述專案等複合式手段進行灰色地帶洗腦,服以其內國法妄圖合理化,對我海域執法正當性齊搭。」"},{"start":2250.919,"end":2266.329,"text":"其台海內水化、台灣內政化目標混淆國際社會對台灣主權認知,並試圖削弱我軍民士氣今年以來,中共更藉聯合立憲2024AB等針對性維台軍演,破壞了台海區域和平穩定"},{"start":2267.492,"end":2287.787,"text":"面對共軍持續性灰色地帶壓迫乃至可能之高強度封鎖等威脅國軍保持綿密的艱增戒備並適時應對及維護我海空域主權台灣位處印太區域第一島鏈樞紐周邊海域為全球貿易重要航道共軍的頻繁侵擾行動將牽動國際經濟危機絕非只有民主社會所能做事"},{"start":2294.411,"end":2305.42,"text":"國軍署耿續強化作戰準備以達備戰方向備戰之目標外並持續協力各部委後職全社會防衛任性、跨部委整備狀況以建立合屬作業機制"},{"start":2306.952,"end":2330.033,"text":"本部依據《全民防衛動員準備法》第8條規定擔護行政院全民防衛動員準備業務匯報秘書單位職責並於111年1月1日成立全民防衛動員署整合跨部會撤進各項動員準備計劃全動署成立後,依《全民防衛動員署組織法》第7條規範於112年2月呈報行政院核定建立各部會定期至全動署核屬作業機制"},{"start":2331.034,"end":2355.436,"text":"包括檢討、戰略物資囤儲、糧食多元自主、通訊備援韌性及醫療量能整備等議題迄今各部會相關韌性計畫陸續奉行政院核定並納入各年度預算、編列及執行而加強戰略物資儲備、我國石油及天然氣等能源多仰賴進口經濟部已規劃增建儲存設備、分散運補地點及加強調度台性等措施"},{"start":2356.256,"end":2377.966,"text":"並透過分散、強固及防衛等作為強化電網韌性,亦針對水資源之戰備需求遲遲擴充,以增進緊急供水調度能力。3、厚植糧食自主量能為提升國內的糧食自主性,農業部依法建立稻米安全存量,每月定期盤點儲備情形並採分散囤儲方式,分囤於全國公糧倉庫"},{"start":2378.786,"end":2407.296,"text":"另外擴大雜糧供應量能採取輔導種植、甘薯等作物提高國產糧食供應率確保遭封鎖時持續滿足生存所需是完備數位通訊網絡我國國際通訊以聯外海欄為主若海欄遭受破壞將嚴重影響行政機關運作及指揮管制效能數位部已推動應變或暫時應用新興科技強化通訊網絡數位韌性及支持數位韌性至跨業者行動網絡接取驗證"},{"start":2409.037,"end":2434.277,"text":"等計劃強化網路備援備以緊急狀態使有效維繫國內外訊息傳遞五、提升醫療救護韌性為因應平時可能大量傷患組織並因應戰傷醫療需求維護部整合內政部消防署及本部經與局自今年起推動韌性國家醫療整備計畫透過設備韌性維護、醫療讓人整備及人員護人經濟等策略提升我國大量傷患及戰傷醫療等"},{"start":2436.218,"end":2462.595,"text":"戰犯醫療應處任性強化醫食人員救護技能以確保危機時刻軍運傷患救治效能及提高存活力6.強化實兵演習驗證各部會除擬定各項任性整備外為首席應變及持續測驗方向亦透過年度實兵演習、交叉驗證激發成果包括辦理油氣電力給水、糧食及大量傷患"},{"start":2463.155,"end":2491.452,"text":"救護等演練已有助滾動修正以及研擬遲疑階段任性經濟方案三、後續作為一、管制計劃執行進度上述各項計劃及應處作為均同步納入各部會動員準備分類計劃之內涵並撤辦各地方政府擬定執行計劃本部全動署將懇需透過跨部會、地方政府協調會議及合署作業掌握各項計劃執行進度及成果且持續強固我國緊急時期之應變任性"},{"start":2492.232,"end":2518.65,"text":"而持續辦理動員紡品,為激勵各部會及地方政府落實各項動員及應變整備,本部全動署每年5至8月編組專家學者及部會代表對中央各機關及地方政府實施動員業務紡品,實行成效納入行政院動員匯報年度會議考核及檢討,有助相互觀摩學習,將梗系辦理督考集合以此恆提升國家韌性實力。」"},{"start":2534.623,"end":2535.684,"text":"其他部會機關報告請參閱書面資料"},{"start":2541.218,"end":2558.464,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":2580.303,"end":2600.758,"text":"在2021年的時候,美軍將領提出了《2027年中國攻台論》一開始的時候,各國的智庫和軍事專家都聚焦在討論說中國有沒有能力來入侵台灣直到2022年中共還台軍演,一直到今年的連台歷戰A跟B"},{"start":2604.08,"end":2629.857,"text":"各智庫我們可以看得到大家的這個討論跟評估是由中國有沒有能力來入侵台灣到現在談論的是封鎖必非是攻台那部長我想了解就是說那我國的態度一直以來就是備戰不求戰那作為防衛的這個應付那如果遇到長期的這個封鎖我們要如何因應"},{"start":2633.78,"end":2635.021,"text":"是否能夠提供更多的能源?"},{"start":2652.873,"end":2663.161,"text":"共軍可以透過這個海空的封鎖來鼓勵台灣重創我國的這個經濟那請問部長這部分我們要如何處理如果我們面對長期封鎖的話我們要如何來應應呢請問部長"},{"start":2665.506,"end":2689.302,"text":"跟委員報告我首先因為最近大家都在講封鎖這個議題跟封鎖因為最近這個聯合立見說維台的這個封控它這樣的維台封控是一種操演或者你因為它用英文是一個操演的一個性質它沒有劃定這一個詳細的經緯度也沒有一個禁航區的一個公告"},{"start":2690.123,"end":2713.893,"text":"那我們來講的話所謂真正的封鎖在國際法上面的定義其實是阻止所有國家的基建進出敵國管轄的港口、機場或海岸線的一種交戰行動那通常由軍隊來主導所以部長你的意思是說他目前你是定義為他是灰色地帶的侵擾而已嗎對,那現在的這個演習算是一種灰色地帶所以你不認為他是有這個封鎖的演練嗎"},{"start":2717.885,"end":2739.979,"text":"算是一種操演算是一種操演他沒有真正的畫色所有的這個我們這個台海周邊的這個所謂的進航區然後限制所有國家的基建進出那這樣子的話是一種演練那所以真正的實施封鎖的話他就會被按照聯大的331、4號決議的話封鎖就會被視為一種侵略行為是屬於"},{"start":2745.262,"end":2773.941,"text":"是一種戰爭的行為這個實施封鎖也要必須要正式對外公告然後通知所有的國家包括封鎖的範圍是部長您剛才講的是軍演的這個部分我們想的是未來其實美國的智庫都接連的示警說中國封鎖台灣的風險是高的我們不能不做預作準備不能說它只是一個灰色地帶的侵擾而已萬一萬一我們看到烏俄戰爭的這個例子"},{"start":2775.242,"end":2777.105,"text":"中華人民共和黨和共和黨和共和黨和共和黨和共和黨"},{"start":2782.95,"end":2786.833,"text":"我們也不能忽視它可能有封鎖的一天這完全同意委員的意見也就是說我們現在國軍面對這樣子它可能由訓來轉戰或由言來轉戰部長您自己之前都有提了很多次了有言轉戰的機率也很高"},{"start":2806.528,"end":2830.589,"text":"可是它這個戰可能不是真正的入侵,而是用這個封鎖,萬一各種可能性都有,那如果是封鎖呢?讓所有的這個船,本席剛剛有提到就是說我們非常仰賴這個海上貿易,如果說被各大港口都被封鎖了,我們要如何因應這部分?國防部到目前為止沒有推測嗎?我跟委員報告兩點,第一點不是我們非常仰賴我們的人員進口"},{"start":2832.15,"end":2854.632,"text":"國際社會也非常仰賴海灣海峽的整個海上運輸的通道是沒有錯整個海上運輸的通道假設被封鎖的話影響了這個根據CSIS在應該是在今年吧所以我說海上貿易不管進口入口我們都非常仰賴影響整個全球的經濟是非常非常巨大那我們國防部的因應知道是什麼呢萬一被封鎖了他不是真的要打你"},{"start":2856.439,"end":2870.389,"text":"就是說假設它真的造成我剛剛定義的所謂那個封鎖的這樣子一個行為是屬於一種戰爭行為的一種太陽的話我們國軍整個就進入了緊急應變作戰的階段了"},{"start":2871.553,"end":2893.549,"text":"所以還是非得走到那一步對不對對,如果它真的宣告我現在就定義上國際法上面的封鎖因為大家一直在講說現在的什麼不管是灰色地帶的洗澡或者是這個蟒蛇的戰略這還是一種封控的一種演習還是一種軍事的恫嚇跟灰色地帶的洗澡但是它真正要引起的"},{"start":2894.289,"end":2912.877,"text":"引發一種封鎖的行動的話這是國際法上有定義什麼叫封鎖是一種戰爭行為我們國軍要進入了應起作戰的一個階段那麼整個國家防衛的韌性就要開始展開這就是為什麼說如果有這個可能性存在我們為什麼要加強全民防衛的韌性"},{"start":2914.278,"end":2938.591,"text":"人員的供給的一個情況當然我們不可否認最弱的當然就是我們的天然氣的一個進口那天然氣的進口我想經濟部也許可以更進一步的來回答這個問題因為我們那個時候如果進入了這樣子的一個狀態假設假設真的進入這樣的一個狀態的話我們的工業生產是不是還存活還要繼續那我們的天然氣的發電廠是不是還要存續"},{"start":2939.231,"end":2949.381,"text":"既然部長已經做球給經濟部經濟部來說明一下這部分這也是剛好本席接下來要提的這個問題就是說我們目前呢2023年台灣將近有70%的能源是仰賴進口那目前石油佔了43.7%部長請回沒關係煤炭是28.8%天然氣是20.2%"},{"start":2961.432,"end":2983.138,"text":"那剛剛部長有提到的就是天然氣的這部分那天然氣的這個安全庫存量說實在的比起這個原油也好或者是煤炭也好其實是相對來講是安全庫存量是比較偏低的這部分的話如果說以後萬一我們遇到這個中共來做這個封鎖的話我們要如何處置呢我們有這麼多的這個能源是靠進口的"},{"start":2983.698,"end":3010.74,"text":"大概跟委員報告第一個我們現在的這個法定的存量雖然是這樣但是我們目前真正實際上的存量大概都遠高於現在這個法定的存量那當中確實比較少的就是天然氣的部分所以經濟部已經在大概規劃有三個天然氣的接收站如果這個三個天然氣接收站能夠順利的完成的話我們大概法定的存量大概到達14天以上沒有問題那至於說14天到底夠不夠"},{"start":3011.78,"end":3019.966,"text":"我們大概也會有經濟部來規劃整個的電力如果說是因為天然氣的關係的話因為我們2025年我們電力的供應的話是電力結構的目標液化天然氣我們需要發電主力大概是50%我們達到50%"},{"start":3035.517,"end":3057.868,"text":"這個安全的庫存量如果這麼低的話那對如何因應這也是本市想要問的對就是跟委員報告就是說如果說真的是在非常極端的狀況下面的話天然氣的這個機組如果沒有辦法就是我們的量如果14天沒有辦法的話我們基本上大概現在有規劃就是有一些已經除役的煤的電廠可能會變成一些國安專用的緊急備用的"},{"start":3059.249,"end":3080.998,"text":"的基礎,因為我們煤的存量會遠超過天然氣的存量,所以大概目前會有這樣的規劃,但是因為現在實際上這個都還是在規劃當中,那目前大概14天的天然氣的量,再加上如果封鎖的時候本來的用電量就會減少,所以這個14天的安全存量,事實上在真正使用上面也會比14天來得更多。」"},{"start":3082.699,"end":3108.356,"text":"看到你們的那個報告有提到就是說二階、三階如果是在2025、2026如果開始來來完工來做試營運的話我們的這個天然氣的安全庫存量其實就會來到14天嘛可是本席也看到像四階、五階、六階、七階其實這些這些點的這個不管擴建或興建也好到目前看起來其實好像是還是遇到了一些問題像這個四階台電的基隆"},{"start":3110.697,"end":3113.398,"text":"計用協和這個地點我們看到環平還要補建然後因故展延類似這種看起來不是那麼的順利這幾個點的話如果說都能夠順利來興建或是擴建的話那對於天然氣安全庫存量是不是這個提升是有很大的幫助呢就如何去克服這部分"},{"start":3135.328,"end":3151.785,"text":"所以這個部分也是我們也希望大家能夠互相配合當然除了四階上確實現在在環評上面有一些困難但是事實上五階、六階、七階在環評上面都還算蠻順利的所以我們大概是有信心能夠去達到這樣子的目標是世界的目標"},{"start":3153.967,"end":3171.653,"text":"這些接收站的這個設立或者是說這個儲存槽的這個擴建等等其實這也是國安問題所以一般的國民有沒有意識到這一點到底我們有沒有說經濟部也有讓民眾知道說其實我們國家面臨是怎樣的一個狀況"},{"start":3173.734,"end":3198.954,"text":"這部分可能要跟民眾多說一些是 我們會遵照委員的指示因為我們本來在溝通的時候我們也會把這個當作是重點是 那還有一點司長我想請問一下就是我們的石油那2023年我有看到這個資料就是說我國石油的進口有69.1%是來自於中東那中國作為全球最大的石油進口國2023年中國的進口原油是5.083億"},{"start":3202.057,"end":3220.259,"text":"在中東的國家經濟當中它失去了非常關鍵的這個地位那我們會不會擔心說有哪一天中東國家恐怕會受到這個中國的壓力那像台灣停止供應石油會不會這種事情發生?可能嗎?這造成台灣很大的衝擊耶"},{"start":3221.471,"end":3243.944,"text":"對我想一個根本報告就是我們事實上對於石油的採購一直在朝向多元化所以大概目前看起來雖然有中東的比重很高但事實上從美國從其他國家的進口的這個數目也在慢慢的提升當中因為我所看到的是中東這個比例非常的高因為這當中有很大部分是對就很大部分是來自中東但是基本上我們這多元化的事實上是沒有停滯過"},{"start":3245.264,"end":3259.614,"text":"那未來的規劃呢?就是我剛剛有跟委員報告我看到美國本來我們就已經有跟他進口原油對將來會提高這個比例對那其他考量的這個國家呢因為我看到中東是佔了很大的這個部分"},{"start":3260.374,"end":3266.959,"text":"對於國家的經濟發展、工業發展可能會有很大的衝擊所以這部分的話還是要請經濟部來留意我看到這個天然氣我們也是跟很多國家進口有高達11個國家"},{"start":3276.807,"end":3289.73,"text":"目前看到石油的部分我們是比較集中在中東所以這個部分可能要特別的來留意因為我們很怕雞蛋太過於集中對台灣來講這部分是一個很不好的現象所以這部分原油的採購可能要請經濟部這邊來多加留意當然我們所擔心的就是說因為我們現在石油的產品對於國家總能量我們消耗是將近五成"},{"start":3306.314,"end":3308.816,"text":"我之前看過一個美國的報告就是說在戰爭的時候可能運輸系統會多需要一些這些原油所以我們有沒有所謂的這個封鎖之間或戰爭當中有所謂的互相配給的這種計畫我們有嗎?"},{"start":3324.309,"end":3336.377,"text":"因為我們有50%在工業部門有30%在運輸系統那往後我們有沒有想說以後這個部分有要互相來做這個調配有沒有這個計畫就是說如果是真的進入到剛才這個所謂委員所的一個封鎖狀況的話那我們本來國家就有一個這個物資動員的一個準備的計畫是在推動的"},{"start":3343.001,"end":3369.38,"text":"這個東西最後對於這個油的部分對於油的部分基本上會是進行一些管制那基本上我們大概優先就是跟整個計畫上大概就是國防是第一優先那第二就是關於民生的是必須的是優先的然後第三個就是跟民生必須品的製造產業的相關那這三個優先我們會做一些調配大概這樣子OK好以上謝謝市長"},{"start":3373.771,"end":3401.188,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3408.863,"end":3410.127,"text":"是 陳委員部長您早"},{"start":3411.231,"end":3436.902,"text":"剛才聽取你的報告中間有幾個很重要的項目今天聽到你把它點出來了我覺得這個對所有的國人來講是一個很重要的說明但在這個前提下我也幫你再做一點補充您剛剛特別在這個灰色地帶的戰術因為有很多人關心所謂的封鎖您剛剛提到了就是說這是一個戰爭行為其實是"},{"start":3439.591,"end":3464.476,"text":"不是一個單一對台而且它影響到整個國際的金融、能源、航運尤其是台灣海峽周遭因此剛才講的灰色區塊的戰術行動它是一種消耗戰那麼除了選項做封鎖以外就是Blockade以外它還有一個叫Cursive Quarantine就是威懾性的臨檢那這個就是屬於執法行為"},{"start":3465.276,"end":3479.586,"text":"他把範圍就跟Narrow down那這個東西呢我們是希望國內除了灰色地帶的軍事或者是軍事行動消耗戰以外另外有關在您的專家就在法律範圍的這個"},{"start":3481.431,"end":3503.601,"text":"我們講的不是灰色地帶就是灰色區塊的國際法、海洋法、武裝衝突法這一段我希望未來在敘述的時候論述的時候讓國內了解一個封鎖不是單獨對台灣是對所有相關國家它造成的金融、國際的保險、物價的上漲那是一個非常大的衝擊我不認為中共在現階段會實施這個手段"},{"start":3505.862,"end":3533.097,"text":"那麼這次誠如您講的它是drill 它不是exercise它只是單向的兵力配置顯示我到位並沒有演練出封鎖的行為那下面呢我就給您看這張我們國軍啊我想了解一下我們通知跟電子次長跟情報次長就是我們除了我們軍用的本身的專用的衛星頻道以外"},{"start":3534.181,"end":3535.183,"text":"在民用衛星 裡面"},{"start":3538.735,"end":3567.687,"text":"我們國軍能夠分享到多少頻道那這個可靠度在暫時尤其是機動台的部分因為這個是備援模式啦因為我們除了有機動的微波我們有機動台即使中華電信不能提供我們有機動台但數量會不夠但中華另外就是OneWeb速發部簽的這個對我們國軍頻寬跟我們使用到什麼位階"},{"start":3570.509,"end":3588.867,"text":"這個聯絡您這邊能不能說明一下各位我想現在OneWeb現在的品官就國軍的作戰需求來講現在是還到現在是不夠的我瞭解這個是確定當然要看OneWeb未來的發展"},{"start":3592.181,"end":3597.906,"text":"這張圖特別強調了一個是海瀾的圖跟世界連接圖第二個是海上交通線就是剛剛講我們要確保我們的航運暢通因為這下面顯示了海瀾的通訊量它是衛星通訊的"},{"start":3620.526,"end":3644.838,"text":"以現在OneWeb的速度來看是它的4000倍所以以衛星通信是不夠的所以海欖的可靠度維修那麼跟不同的海欖公司簽約那中華電信有簽約我們速發部應該也能夠掌握要能夠掌握海欖修復船它多久能夠到在這個修復過程中間我們的備援方案"},{"start":3646.099,"end":3660.573,"text":"透過第三地地面站再衛星跨接到海南再把信號回送這是一個選擇方案我希望我們國軍在這個備案的研究上面能夠多做一點琢磨有一點"},{"start":3662.746,"end":3685.312,"text":"選項、方案,而不是只靠一項。」委員報告事實上已經有相關的但是我想我不適合在公開的這個場合來說明這個我們的相關的一個備援的一個方法是,我了解這個是不是也請我們速發部的同仁能夠幫忙說明一下請看這張圖這個是我們的部長您請回這個是我們連接外島的海嵐"},{"start":3693.22,"end":3715.711,"text":"那麼因為兩年前馬祖海欖那個事件給我們一個很大的一個教訓就是經驗也累積也知道如果沒有及時的修復能力那這個就等於沒有手機了這個smartphone也沒有了甚至你的whatsapp你的line都不能通了那甚至影響最大的如果是通知到國際海欖的話"},{"start":3717.552,"end":3730.847,"text":"等於說我們及時的外匯存底的調撥就產生問題了那這個是根據我們公家的資料我改版重新經過校正把它的顯示出來的那這就是我們現在"},{"start":3732.128,"end":3757.669,"text":"各個海欄連接處那麼海欄在陸上連接台的那個地方的安全可能在未來不管是寶二或者是由其他的民防單位這個要有演練因為脆弱度不僅只於上岸或者是走地下真正的那個控制中心是要很重要的我們再看這個"},{"start":3760.045,"end":3788.451,"text":"這張圖是跟經濟部有關的就是所有西岸的基礎建設因此海灘不容易變成兩棲登陸因此美方的致富就是說是將來可能就是把你的通訊、斷纜、通訊那中華電信跟我們經濟部都能夠掌握我們的發電、網路配電現在還有一個超高壓配電所的安危也是一個重要的防護的所以海纜"},{"start":3789.963,"end":3803.553,"text":"跟我們的電信、衛星跟微波這三個是相互支援那必須有一個整合計劃就是有一個最糟糕的情況發生的話有沒有辦法透過第三國第三地"},{"start":3805.165,"end":3820.268,"text":"然後衛星第三地再經過海欄再送回來這個我想在將來您在國際上面跟合作對象談判的時候要強化就像原來的這個OneWeb是在泰國在日本在關島"},{"start":3821.755,"end":3838.454,"text":"那麼我們希望能夠未來如果持續有希望在台灣能夠設地面戰能夠自己掌控那這個圖看到右邊的那張圖其實就是我們的電網的脆弱度的超高壓那我們的政府原來是說五年"},{"start":3839.415,"end":3866.812,"text":"十年五千億現在總統是說要加快要電網的韌性因為我們不希望並不是發電設施並不是能源中斷而跳電而是電網的配電超高壓345千伏161千伏你兩個站一跳三分之一個台灣就沒電了那這個不是兩天三天修復的好的所以這個部分又影響了我們的通訊所以不管是能源、海纜、衛星"},{"start":3870.02,"end":3889.65,"text":"電輸送、配電,這個都是整合在一起當然這個不是您這個範疇我剛剛主要是提到的衛星通訊二胡戰爭期間,烏克蘭為維持網路暢通他的方法主要是節點有備份他轉移關鍵基礎設施到境外或第三地那用非同步軌道,中軌低軌的衛星"},{"start":3893.412,"end":3917.387,"text":"開放全國用戶漫遊當然STARLINK給他很大的服務他有8萬4千個台如果我們才7千個點這個不能比可是美國人替他付錢但是希望未來軍民都能夠手機能暢通維持軍政體系緊急服務對外跟國際的聲音能夠暢通鞏固民心"},{"start":3919.059,"end":3948.252,"text":"在今年的國慶我們總統也強調了團結台灣、共援夢想演說中多次強調的韌性提升國家整體的國防、民生、災防、民主四大韌性這個東西雖然只是成立了跨部會的委員會可是因為我還是要強調因為我們目前還沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略必須用國家安全戰略做整合性的思考"},{"start":3949.878,"end":3969.22,"text":"我們去問的不是你的強而是最脆弱點這個部會的脆弱點不能解決那那個部會的強點並不能補足因此你看我們最後用一張圖這是一個結構性的細微圖它的思維包括糧食、醫療、法律"},{"start":3970.438,"end":3991.417,"text":"供應鏈、經濟、能源、電力、石油、天然氣、儲備在這個中間的問題必須要完全解決了才會去推外圍的軍事行動所以這個思維是做給我們做建設國家安全戰略跨部會協調所以不管是能源、經濟、通訊"},{"start":3995.039,"end":4012.826,"text":"醫療、整個社會福利再加上國防的支撐這是一個整體的思考我們希望我們的政府在任內要把國家安全辦理整合進我們所有的部會橫向的協調以上提供做參考謝謝你謝謝部長我再請您做一個指導是"},{"start":4023.318,"end":4051.407,"text":"有關國家安全戰略把它整合進整合國防戰略跟社會韌性我特別強調美國的四年期國防總檢2017年已經終止了因為他覺得它裡面由下向上產生的很多的需求跟上向下的政策不能同步調因為我們明年可能要出QDR了是不是請部長在這個地方稍微琢磨一下也就是國防戰略的指導這個章節"},{"start":4053.007,"end":4082.487,"text":"必須要內容要充實一下因為沒有一個明確的指導因為上游沒有國家安全戰略那美國從國家安全戰略到國防戰略到國防軍事戰略然後再到作戰區的作戰計劃我們現在是QDR下面在兩年一本的國防報告書後面呢就是我們的軍事作戰計劃我們希望這個政策指導要有的延貫性有持續性那水平橫向的聯繫啊要能夠啊要徹底的溝通"},{"start":4083.808,"end":4099.039,"text":"這點請部長做一點回應當然我在國安會任職的時候我有充分的體會到就是說我們要擬定一個非常具體的一個國家安全戰略是在我"},{"start":4100.802,"end":4124.84,"text":"一直在我的思考當中但其實它有點不太容易的原因是因為我們國家處境的特殊性我講一個很簡單例子我們跟台美之間我們就完全沒有辦法公開所以在國家安全戰略就是說我們跟它之間的這個交流基於台美之間的默契我們是沒有辦法的我們沒有辦法寫成一部我們怎麼樣來一個"},{"start":4128.763,"end":4152.82,"text":"一個...就是說日本他發現一個國家他不會去顧慮到說什麼跟什麼他跟美國之間的這個那我們就要顧慮到很多我們必須在這個所謂的這個印太區域國家的這個形成的協同嚇阻的這樣的一個部分就我們就必須要有很多隱晦那我們也不能沒有沒有辦法明白這樣所以"},{"start":4154.131,"end":4165.188,"text":"我覺得我們要試圖嘗試但是我個人是覺得還蠻困難的那...那...法務部長您可以這樣子有機密版有公開版"},{"start":4165.731,"end":4188.545,"text":"那對國人來講還是要有一個簡述的、公開的...我也看過委員的意見就是說有公開感情版但是我很怕那個機密版就成為大家都想看的那個版那...那...那...你就...什麼事情越機密呢那個...那個就...就...因為這個是橫向跨部會協調一個重要的指標啦參考提供...提供您參考好好 謝謝...謝謝部長謝謝陳友康委員"},{"start":4197.932,"end":4224.735,"text":"接下來請王定宇、趙偉上台質詢謝謝趙偉,先麻煩顧部長請顧部長部長,在我開始今天詢問之前,有幾個案子還是要提醒"},{"start":4226.349,"end":4240.684,"text":"我上一次質詢提到抗彈板還有背心磁扣的問題當然我有收到國防部來報告報告寫得也不錯但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事原來公告招標的是不是磁扣"},{"start":4241.88,"end":4264.973,"text":"是不是在我質詢之後,把它拉下來重新公告,變成不是磁扣?防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的,這個我上次已經問過,我不重複了請部長查明,當時誰主導這個會議?跟委員報告,我們有經過去查證,沒有當時這個會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣那現在還在編審當中,所以..."},{"start":4268.666,"end":4297.942,"text":"我本來要私下給你提這個事情來報告我也看到了寫的都不會發生、沒有發生、不會發生因為我看了那個會議記錄是沒有你可以問一下我也不曉得軍備局的中階的軍官願不願意說我是擔心這裡面會有事情這第一個提醒那我進一步提醒另外一件事情我們無人機反制系統從上一屆的部長到這一屆一波三折預算大概9億我只提醒一件事情"},{"start":4299.69,"end":4323.928,"text":"有廠商不改進自己產品的性能反而透過關係要逼迫我們要驗測的單位降規比方說有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來因為從哪個方位過來你先知道跟不知道這個驗測就差很多"},{"start":4327.123,"end":4343.256,"text":"這樣放水過關的東西到暫時的時候能不能用請部長查明我其他部分我私底下會跟部長來提供第三個我們這一次機密資料外洩有關是政風人員的問題還是軍職"},{"start":4346.589,"end":4364.063,"text":"陣風是在發出這個我說明一下就是說陣風是搭載是巡內部軍網的系統這個陣風人員不是軍職人員嘛我們陣風一條邊嘛所以他是陣風是一條邊派來的他對於我們軍事單位的機敏性我不知道訓練夠不夠"},{"start":4365.504,"end":4387.296,"text":"但是透過內網把不該丟出去丟出去我先確認損害的範圍他還是在內網的範圍丟給不該看的人就是說他的疏失應該是說還是在一個內部軍網的系統裡面電子發文的方式沒有跑到外面去這是第一點第二點就是他發給大概20"},{"start":4388.777,"end":4404.362,"text":"二十八個單位,這個二十八個單位的時候他應該要將這些具居民人員的名冊要做區隔跟個別處理,結果沒有做,這一點我們承認我們有疏失,這個政風是人員部長我持見關係喔,這裡面我們軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面"},{"start":4409.532,"end":4431.509,"text":"就是說具有機密性的這些人確實是有在裡面我聽到報告是說在外面實地的情報人員是沒有在這裡面沒有沒有任何第一線的第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面嗎因為要做財產申報的人都已經是在公開了啦公開了他的階級"},{"start":4433.09,"end":4460.64,"text":"我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面沒有,他們不再需要做財產申報的範圍針對那因為我也要跟委員說明一下因為在第一時間查譽之後就這個電子發這個公文的部分就立即刪除把它退文然後刪除那我們現在就是說在第一時間做這樣的一個風險控管之後我想因為它還是在內部的單位這個會不會有沒有懲處"},{"start":4463.161,"end":4477.629,"text":"法務部聯政署已經進來我想調查我們會做一個這個政風人員的懲處權是在法務部還是在國防部法務部聯政署會來進行我們不由國防部來做行政調查就由法務部聯政署他行政調查但是要處分喔"},{"start":4478.747,"end":4501.836,"text":"這個事情不能說我破嘴破嘴再收回來就算了這個不行我回到我們今天的題目所以我要澄清一下因為外界一直在講說是電子郵件或者有財產申報資料這都沒有沒有這些東西不是以電子郵件是以內部的電子公文而且在軍方裡面第二個沒有其他財產申報的資料它大概就是那個"},{"start":4503.437,"end":4513.861,"text":"單位職稱跟姓名就是一個名單這個名單第一線負責情報工作人員沒有在裡面財產細節也沒有在裡面這個發出去是不應該發的非軍職是政風人員處理的所以政風人員要不要處分請法務部自己好好審酌辦理我回到我今天要問的題目事實上"},{"start":4527.746,"end":4547.981,"text":"這一兩年來美國的不管是決策圈的人或智庫或者是媒體都關注兩個新的威脅樣態一個是quarantine一個是blockade這兩個我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候大概就有聽到這個部分那部長有沒有"},{"start":4549.099,"end":4556.226,"text":"在部長之前的秘書長跟擔任部長之後對我們的重要的盟友或者是相關智庫有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題我想都"},{"start":4563.863,"end":4583.937,"text":"應該我們在進行交流的時候跟國家進行交流都有在討論這些相關的議題這不只是像CSIS或者是這個美國的媒體啦或者其他的我看到相關單位的人也在關注說這個情形發生了我們的因應之道所以我提問很簡單第一個就部長"},{"start":4585.373,"end":4610.869,"text":"你們定義在中共對台灣進行的quarantine什麼樣態屬於這個行為?quarantine在國際法上它並沒有具體的規範但是它是一個可能它可以在特定的海空域它針對某些貨品來進行攔檢攔檢嘛這個不是防疫的那個那它可能是用"},{"start":4612.37,"end":4632.128,"text":"以中國來講他可能是用海警船以執法的名義來進行所謂的登船檢查搜索扣押等等這些行為這個是quarantine就是他用他們的所謂的警察兵力他以他的執法的名義執法的名義進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻是這個有沒有發生過"},{"start":4634.24,"end":4655.521,"text":"這個在之前金門水域的時候發生過一次還是兩次我印象是一次成功一次追著跑應該是兩次我們有沒有因應之道還是我們把它定義你就是coast guard你就是水警所以我們國防部不介入讓海巡署去處理"},{"start":4656.226,"end":4680.892,"text":"沒有我們要跟海巡署會相互來當然以海巡為主啦我們對這個quarantine因為不只國際要關注我們自己要關心就是發生這樣的樣態行為我國的船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾假借執法之名我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫我想我們就是以這個因為它是"},{"start":4682.273,"end":4698.229,"text":"剛剛因為我已經解釋了封鎖的一個太陽是屬於一種戰爭行為那它這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為所以我們原則上是由執法的部門來主導那海軍呢依照這個海上任務的綜合資源協定書我們跟海巡一起共同來協處這樣子"},{"start":4699.95,"end":4721.858,"text":"我們現在海巡沒有空中兵力像美國的Cost Guard它是有空中兵力速度比較快我為什麼強調這一塊因為我們海巡我們現在海巡署也有人來就是說海巡你先不用上來因為你沒辦法回答我的問題就是海巡如果靠船艦發生Quantum Team的行為的時候我們軍方也許有載空機"},{"start":4722.978,"end":4739.526,"text":"我們也許有定義機但是海巡沒有所以等到海上馳援到目標點的時候在金門水域發生過你就來不及了他把他帶回去了所以這個部分的因應計畫我們希望也許可以列為機密我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案"},{"start":4741.119,"end":4765.972,"text":"封鎖這個封鎖你剛才已經定義了所以我們現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖就一定的海空域進行的封鎖行為不認為它是灰色地帶了它是這個準戰爭行為了因為我是按照國際法上面定義因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離或者是所謂的封控的一個操演這個其實大家都不是很清楚所以會有"},{"start":4767.853,"end":4780.157,"text":"我只是要去說明國際法上的封鎖是對所有的國家的基建要進出我們管轄的港口跟機場或海岸線的這種一種交戰行動這個是很嚴重這個是國際法規定的定義"},{"start":4784.898,"end":4798.896,"text":"因為它對全世界會造成所以我認為任何一個處在這一個不管是印太區或全球都不可能坐視不管這樣的一個行為所以部長我現在把它釐清一下對我們國家來講"},{"start":4799.997,"end":4820.897,"text":"quarantine也就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為我們認為它是一個灰色地帶騷擾由海巡主導軍方備援那實質的計畫我們可以另外再談但封鎖就列為戰爭行為了對我這樣詮釋沒錯嗎是"},{"start":4823.499,"end":4850.885,"text":"如果真正的屬於所謂的封鎖就是所有的國家基建都不可以自由進出的時候這就屬於一種封鎖我先看到準備的內容啦不管農業部啊什麼大概都在提高儲備能量啊能源啊、糧食啦、彈藥啦、醫藥啦這些我們提高儲備能量來做因應這個當然是有必要在安全儲備能量那我們的國家韌性除了這以外我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫比如說封鎖"},{"start":4852.705,"end":4864.47,"text":"我們當然要反封鎖我看漢光40號裡面花蓮港有一個境外交接的一個運輸計畫我們對於所謂的封鎖目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫"},{"start":4865.704,"end":4892.942,"text":"我想我剛剛已經有提到了如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖就是我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段了所以我們整個當然有對於它這個反封鎖要有一個具體的規範而且我們島內對於反所以相關的這些這個人員部隊然後武器相關的一個配置部署等等都會有一個因應的計畫來做這個反封鎖"},{"start":4895.564,"end":4918.265,"text":"那相關的這些部分我覺得可能不宜有的我們適合私底下了解或是機密會議我現在講就是說不管是quarantine或者是blockade這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效那我現在比較遺憾的就是像我們消防演練"},{"start":4919.446,"end":4947.783,"text":"不是因為失火了我消防演練是因為我要預防我要因應我要讓他不失火我要減少他的傷害所以我才需要演練嘛部隊為什麼要演習不是因為明天要打仗是因為我產生嚇阻力量希望我有所準備讓敵人不敢來那現在呢我們所有的準備任性的準備民防的準備國家因應的準備就會變成說要打仗了這個不可以那個不可以"},{"start":4949.161,"end":4970.298,"text":"在以前的價值觀是國家有難匹夫有責以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備喔你準備明天要打仗是不是你不能準備喔你不能把這些人說問他有沒有意願保護自己的國家你一問你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎"},{"start":4971.775,"end":4994.33,"text":"就中共那邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰我們這邊保護自己的家園,我們又沒有打人家我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人我們民防的準備,我們任性的準備我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備我們軍方的準備,從漢光、聯勇所有的演習"},{"start":4997.566,"end":5024.34,"text":"這準備不是為了窮兵黷武是為了保護自己而已啊所以我今天要問的最後一個問題部長也不用回答我認為我們今天提到不管是Blockade或者是Quarantine或者是其他的因應要有計劃計劃要透過演練演習來確認計劃是否有效然後Revise it修訂它再演練再修訂它當充分的準備因為威脅一直都在威脅沒有消失"},{"start":5025.14,"end":5043.282,"text":"軍人就會在威脅沒有消失我們保護自己的意志就要在啊所以這要不斷的演習不斷的演練不斷的演練然後透過有所準備讓威脅知道你有所準備它的成本很大把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住這才是和平之道"},{"start":5044.682,"end":5059.202,"text":"我看到最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情好像保家衛國是一個好像是挑釁人家的事情不對侵略者呼籲和平對保護自己的人呼籲和平"},{"start":5060.263,"end":5087.93,"text":"這不是勸諾這是勸降啊所以部長我幫你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵可能行動都要做一些包括從低強度一直到高強度的所有的一個想定然後對這些想定要擬定這個計畫來因應那有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作然後有些部分我們當然也要強化我們的整體的社會防衛韌性我想這個都是有必要的"},{"start":5088.87,"end":5100.281,"text":"其他相關諮詢我私下再跟您溝通好謝謝謝謝王定宇召委部長請回接下來我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":5122.76,"end":5149.513,"text":"部長好部長我們今天的議題當然大家可能也許有不同的看法不過我首先先來請教一下就是我們的權動室變成權動署它從20幾個人的編制變成130幾個那署長也已經到了14職等我想要請教一下我們目前權動署成立以後它最大的成效在哪裡"},{"start":5152.162,"end":5172.392,"text":"我想全動數成立以後我們如同委員所說的我們的人員編制有所提升所以說這幾年做了什麼就好因為我們變成全動數以後我們做了什麼然後它的成效在哪裡簡單全動數所夜管的不管是輔導各部會的計畫因為有了能量以後每月"},{"start":5172.972,"end":5195.309,"text":"做到可以一起共同探討深入計畫的精進第二我們的演習的幅度我也看到逐年驗證都在提升比如說我們的這個防空的演習我們確實去做到很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難等等而且資訊化配合內政部APP來提供等等還有全民國防應變手冊"},{"start":5197.25,"end":5201.353,"text":"現在民眾要去哪?因為以前沒有那麼緊張啊已經很久沒那麼緊張以前防空洞在哪裡大家都知道那現在沒有了嘛那你現在因為我要的是具體的一個作為因為已經兩三年了然後剛剛講的還都是軍事動員的部分那個你只是比較精進就可以了因為那個平常都在做啊全動事的時候那時候也在做啊我們現在是指的是你全動署以後到底有什麼"},{"start":5227.35,"end":5240.066,"text":"因為最近可能就是舉個例子來說難道只是講得沸沸揚揚的現在青年扶擒同意書這個部分這個是教育部自己去做的還是權動署指導他們去做的就這個部分"},{"start":5244.492,"end":5258.832,"text":"這一個在全動法我知道他本來就有告訴我們說最近因為在最近去做這樣子的一個同意書的一個調查這是教育部自己去做的還是全動署指導的"},{"start":5260.595,"end":5286.673,"text":"教育部他本於他設定這個分類計畫他去規劃最主要要跟委員報告就是說因為過去這20年來都有這個計畫然後一般以前的採取就是說觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練嘛那因為去年在預告的時候其實我們沒有修任何的一個文字但是有些這個我們知道在民防法裡面也有"},{"start":5287.533,"end":5312.747,"text":"包括你的彈料的存儲會放在哪裡可是因為你最近大家已經落實下去可能去做調查因為在民防法裡面高中生他甚至也是在涵蓋在民防法裡面的就是我們的民防動員的這個部分所以在法裡面雖然有可是過去一直沒有這樣子讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為"},{"start":5314.028,"end":5320.913,"text":"那時候風平浪靜大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的這是我們想要探討這個待會兒會講可是我們現在再一次剛剛權動署提到說你只是安全性或者像一些量能好像覺得比較精進你說民眾要知道要去躲哪裡我看大部分的民眾還是不知道"},{"start":5341.889,"end":5363.508,"text":"那在這裡還要請教的是全動署跟全社會防衛任性委員會它的差別是在哪裡?部長總統府6月份成立的全社會防衛任性委員會跟全動署現在的執掌的一個部分它的差別在哪裡?"},{"start":5365.021,"end":5387.479,"text":"向委員報告我們這成立以後到現在兩年多餘我們不斷地去精進剛才我講的各種的一個韌性計畫那如同剛才各部委員有報告它的儲備怎麼樣加來增加我們的一個量能所以我只講一句就好這些的準備充實以後就能夠使得國家的韌性強化"},{"start":5388.951,"end":5395.775,"text":"所以動員準備好韌性就會強化所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的因為你的動員準備夠充分然後強度夠的話其實你大概就不需要你就會有韌性了嘛所以你現在總統府成立的全社會防衛韌性委員會因為我們看不出來他跟權動署的差異在哪裡部長是不是簡單的跟我們說明一下他的差別在哪裡"},{"start":5417.269,"end":5420.791,"text":"簡單來說群眾署是作為全民黃衛任性委員會的秘書單位這個委員會在總統府設立之後整個跨部會的協調要結合國安會跟行政院"},{"start":5436.98,"end":5441.141,"text":"這樣可能是錯的因為當時我一開始說全動事變成全動署很重要的一個原因就是它本來就是一個秘書單位它本來就是很多幕僚其實在做的軍事動員可是你現在變成全動署以後其實它很多的整合跟包括民力、民務力動員演習的部分其實這些要怎麼樣去整合協調或者要去做什麼樣的指導"},{"start":5466.465,"end":5485.177,"text":"本來就全動數要做可是你現在變成再多一個任性委員會全動數在工作階層要進行整合跨部會的設計各項動員的準備計劃他在工作層級那另外有一個政策層級所以在政策層級是一件事情在工作"},{"start":5485.837,"end":5496.121,"text":"根據這個政策成績以後他還要每個月都...全棟署也不是工作成績全棟署它也是整合所有的...那應該全棟署其實它的功能已經不太重要它就恢復到原來的全棟室就好了現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下你現在這麼缺軍還有缺人的情況之下你把所有的人力很多都調到全棟署"},{"start":5514.148,"end":5517.731,"text":"當時就是希望提升他這樣的量能結果你成立以後你現在上面又成立一個任性委員會那其實他本來也不是自己做啊那任性委員會當然也不是自己做啊權動署也沒有自己做啊他也是做一些整合或者像所有的這些訊息還有包括像對各縣市的指導其實都是一樣的"},{"start":5536.607,"end":5543.928,"text":"所以如果是這樣我們希望軍職人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點不然你是跌闖架屋的啦我跟委員報告我不認為齁因為全動數的量能擴大之後呢事實上以我在國安會的這個經驗它整個我們全社會黃內任性的一個精進或範圍的擴大部長你告訴我們你先不要說一個是政策然後一個是工作它所謂的政策它可以指導什麼樣不同的政策"},{"start":5566.847,"end":5575.18,"text":"委員會政策的部分就是說在因為他可以做到原來權動署做不到的告訴我們這個就好"},{"start":5575.632,"end":5602.067,"text":"全動數的位階畢竟是在國防部底下的單一部我們是國防部有一個單一部會所以如果還要做進行跨部會包括在座的各位這個各部會之間的一個進行協調還是要有一個角色性的單位來做那你還是回復全動式就好了因為它現在如果它都功能沒有再有擴大的機會或者像它過去它全動式的時候以前也都是在管制啊"},{"start":5602.367,"end":5604.529,"text":"現在全社會防禦任性的一個項目已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了全東市以前也做這些不管是像民訪他到戰時的時候做所有的民力資源調度包括我們說的糧食等等"},{"start":5621.483,"end":5640.299,"text":"還有一些能源等等其實他都是做一個整合報告的像這樣子如果他沒有太大的功能我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員他可以更務實的去做他們的工作因為他們都好不容易訓練出來的就這個部分部長可能還可以去思考一下因為當時蔡總統他這個任內那時候部長其實是國安會裡面的我們"},{"start":5650.717,"end":5678.516,"text":"最主要的一個主導之一啦那把它變成全動數我想其實您大概對這個應該也很清楚它的一個目標方向現在顯然他們可能是有重疊的部分那另外我們今天有提到這個部分我們請部長你們再去做一個統合好不好就是說我們不要讓很多的單位成立以後你都是跌床架屋的這是我們現在要特別提出來的主要是因為這個"},{"start":5681.777,"end":5695.522,"text":"在國防部底下的全動數我認為成立之後有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜那現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多沒關係部長把全動數成立以後因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來阿"},{"start":5697.623,"end":5701.444,"text":"我有特別問了說全動數成立以後我們的成效主要是在哪裡那應該也讓大家知道那不然你增加了人員的編制然後你也增加了預算可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡這是一點那再給我們書面資料好了那另外就是我們蟒蛇戰略大家都在談的其實可能每一個可能有不同的看法跟見解"},{"start":5723.791,"end":5750.326,"text":"那蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分可是在目前來說是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的一個做法因為你如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍甚至在經濟跟心理戰現在目前其實已經在進行了而不是在短暫的情況之下做的我現在只想要提的是因為目前至少還有島鏈嘛"},{"start":5751.647,"end":5761.405,"text":"你日韓還有非其實都還有美軍存在的前提之下保與封鎖跟這樣的一個作戰行為可能是行不通的"},{"start":5762.813,"end":5783.409,"text":"尤其現在各國對於打中的這個政治紅利其實都有還有很大的市場所以這個心理戰也是行不通的所以蟒蛇戰略我想其實現在對台灣已經在做的可能就很多長遠的方向來看其實是現在在進行可是我們現在比較想要"},{"start":5785.53,"end":5801.439,"text":"了解的是一個現役的海軍就是我們的司令他去接受這樣子的一個媒體的採訪外媒的採訪他是經過部長同意的嗎?或者他的那個內容你有沒有看過?"},{"start":5802.216,"end":5815.377,"text":"在程序上經過成合,那內容上面我事先沒有了解沒有了解因為他只有訪綱,但是他答的內容我沒有事先沒有所以蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的"},{"start":5816.473,"end":5832.065,"text":"《蟒蛇戰略》事實上CSS就跟那個Bonnie Gray的葛萊伊事實上他們之前就提出類似的可是他們是有不太一致的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的不過在概念上都是一種法律戰略"},{"start":5832.605,"end":5835.148,"text":"我們現在說的是今天這個蟒蛇如果可以一口把你吞掉的時候他幹嘛慢慢產因為他現在如果他有能力我們現在比較擔心的是這個"},{"start":5848.004,"end":5857.593,"text":"所以像我們剛剛提到的他如果說在很短的時間之內我想他不會用那種慢慢的把你勒緊以後選擇時機然後再把你吃掉他現在已經在進行已經這麼長的時間已經在做所以你如果封鎖台灣對老共來說這個可能不是他的因為沒有辦法達到他的目標"},{"start":5870.192,"end":5885.725,"text":"統一其實是它一直存在的一個做法解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法可是我們在整個過程當中我覺得我們現在因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到避免中共有機會借勢升端"},{"start":5888.167,"end":5894.372,"text":"這個部分我們在近兩年第一個台灣原來有戰略眾生的海峽中線它是如何失去的?難道不是因為政府為了大內宣治國還有給予在國際宣傳的情況之下去同意邀請美國前眾議長裴若曦來台灣所以我們失去了海峽中線?我不贊同這樣的講法我認為是中國的虛信、僥信"},{"start":5915.606,"end":5938.517,"text":"部長你先聽完我的話然後再一起說台海境線制水域默契如何被打破的其實一件本來可以透過人道還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難事件可是在政府的堅持之下用最糟糕的危機處理方式激化了兩岸緊張的關係我為什麼提這兩個"},{"start":5942.159,"end":5952.53,"text":"主要是因為唐司令有提到說不要有藉口讓他們去借勢升端這是我們想要做的嘛就像我們現在不親起衝突的態度是一樣的可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣所以我們"},{"start":5960.359,"end":5978.252,"text":"在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包就這個部分我們希望不要把他全部怪到什麼大家沒有防禦或者要保護自己大家有什麼樣不同的看法跟委員報告這個國慶的演說以他以"},{"start":5978.993,"end":5995.539,"text":"不管以任何的理由中國來進行這個聯合力艦B的這個樣子的演習他演習之後幾十個國家來進行譴責認為海海的區域和平穩定部長我們共同譴責部長我們共同譴責可是我們現在要說的是我們只是要維護海海的和平穩定現狀"},{"start":6002.782,"end":6009.387,"text":"和平穩定現狀是大多數國人所祈求的我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀可是你要告訴我們為什麼會變這樣我剛剛舉的兩個例子本來可以不要發生的就是中國的極權擴張的本質嘛就是中國極權擴張的本質你也擋不了連美國都擋不了所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平安全的狀況之下我們應該要做什麼樣的一個動作還有我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力我們不能夠採取相同意義"},{"start":6032.965,"end":6038.349,"text":"好好的告訴我們的年輕人說你簽了這個未來要保護國家你不要又做然後又不敢講然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家為什麼不願意今天自己的家自己的生命自己的財產有誰不願意可是不是有人去製造了以後叫別人一定要來承受或別人一定要來怎麼做你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園守護我們自己的國家"},{"start":6061.263,"end":6066.687,"text":"好好的告訴我們全體國人我們必須要這樣面對你宮廟如果要存儲彈藥為什麼要存儲彈藥告訴大家理由你年輕人為什麼要簽這個未來有沒有有一些是軍事的這些勤務有沒有好好的告訴年輕人讓他們有心理準備我想這個才是你今天如果說要大家共同有一條心來守護我們國家這個才是大家能接受的不要又"},{"start":6088.661,"end":6093.062,"text":"又要做可是又不敢講然後才來怪東怪西這樣不是對的啊我們維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識我們所努力尋求也是在維持這個現狀而中國不認為維持現狀是一個它可以接受的所以中國的軍事武力擴張中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的美國可以跟它校正"},{"start":6112.228,"end":6115.37,"text":"美國可以跟他校正我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念那不好意思我最後問你一個問題就好部長在您受訪的時候你說聯合利建B其實這個可能是一個包圍封鎖的態勢或者一般的看法就一些軍事的專家看法"},{"start":6140.422,"end":6161.293,"text":"那如果聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼做法?是不是可以有沒有一個應對的想法?我想中國會不斷地找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何它所想要進行的演習它怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合力艦C?怎麼樣界定它什麼叫做聯合戰備警訊?這個是由它來定義的"},{"start":6162.493,"end":6169.195,"text":"對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判"},{"start":6190.224,"end":6210.403,"text":"我只能夠剛剛講就是中國會又利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行它所謂的聯合力艦C我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合力艦C在什麼時候它就會進行或者會不會進行但是呢它就像它這一次聯合力艦B它所要演練的這個範圍"},{"start":6211.925,"end":6224.384,"text":"或要操演的這個範圍事實上在我們看起來他也不一定有把他全部操演完畢他就是這樣子一天時間就過了但事實上他講的那個事項那到底是什麼叫做"},{"start":6226.271,"end":6229.155,"text":"對陸對海的攻擊、綜合的控制權,這些範圍都是他在定義的。」"},{"start":6242.352,"end":6250.097,"text":"請部長提供書面就是說因為今天謝謝主席他訂了這樣的一個題目那我們是認為說當我們在聯合立監B這樣的狀況之下我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備如果萬一有C大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待台灣我們不要他的定義我們要我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對"},{"start":6271.71,"end":6274.393,"text":"我們不甚高衝突,但是我們要隨時保持警覺"},{"start":6293.638,"end":6321.676,"text":"先請我們國安局的副局長待會再請國防部的顧部長請副局長是我這邊這邊特別要跟國安局來為原住民這樣的一個發聲我們要請這個吳立華要向全國的人民全國的原住民來道歉原住民不是一個破口"},{"start":6322.793,"end":6341.273,"text":"我們在過去不管任何執政黨都是準意原住民跟對岸單純的做文化、藝術、產業的交流不是一個共諜也不是一個破口"},{"start":6343.304,"end":6356.978,"text":"今天武力華在這個地方執行國安局局長的時候排山倒海的所有的全國原住民一直討伐連我的電話已經打爆了"},{"start":6358.204,"end":6379.793,"text":"為什麼身為一個原住民的委員會把原住民拿到檯面上說他是一個破口所以今天我特別要講上次的一個答詢中原住民是一個破口當時局長對於相關的樣態會持續的關注請問部長 請問副部長"},{"start":6381.994,"end":6410.16,"text":"你認為原住民是中共滲透台灣的破口嗎?國安局是否有確切的個案情資顯示原住民被吸收了?是,謝委員那我想中共的一個統戰方式是蠻多元的包括文化、宗教還有相關體育等等都是包含在裡面那我們原住民的青年跟"},{"start":6410.6,"end":6432.071,"text":"中共的一個大陸的一個交流當然也像比方提議包括這個兩岸的少數民族的一個他的一個活動包括像這個新創或才藝等等現在我要回答我要你回答的是有沒有顯示原論被吸收"},{"start":6433.392,"end":6455.513,"text":"有沒有什麼什麼樣的一個顯示你來回答一下就好了我想原住民有沒有被吸收我國安團隊多有在瞭解在掌搜這些情報目前我們手頭上是沒有原住民的所以今天吳立法身為原住民的立委不應該"},{"start":6457.287,"end":6475.138,"text":"把原住民污名化,分化原住民。」今天他用這個,他應該我建議吳立華委員向全國的原住民道歉以上來,那個我們請國防部部長好,請坐是,黃委員好是,部長好"},{"start":6486.806,"end":6506.346,"text":"今天有一個非常可笑而且沒有任何的精準的換算你們自己的國防部智庫國防安全研究院的蘇紫雲所長在日前的表示如果美國"},{"start":6510.7,"end":6535.863,"text":"要到我們保護我們台灣台海要45分鐘就到了這樣的一個說辭對你們國防的智庫所顯現出來的這樣的一個數據有沒有精準有沒有準確你來回答您是說台灣台灣在"},{"start":6538.936,"end":6549.884,"text":"美國如果能夠派遣足夠武力到戰場能夠有多久要到我們台灣海峽這裡"},{"start":6552.369,"end":6574.886,"text":"跟委員報告我想我還是從一個我們的整個戰略這個的一個目標來說明我們建軍是以拒止敵人達成任務為目標所以我們備戰方面是以平時能夠有效應處灰色地帶的清招暫時我們是以削弱的戰略拒止、遲制或擾亂敵人達成作戰目標"},{"start":6577.468,"end":6601.361,"text":"來迫使他要放棄奪台的行動也就是說我們逐次的去削弱他的戰力讓他的最後的奪台的這個行動不能夠成功我們沒有辦法跟他做一個說我們要殲滅這個國家或者是我們要如何但我們的戰略我們的戰略基本戰略就是讓他登島的作戰最後沒有辦法能夠成功所以你們國防部的智庫"},{"start":6603.122,"end":6618.112,"text":"國防安全研究院的蘇執銀所長所表達的等於廢話若中共對台封鎖美國最快可能在45分鐘內馳援台灣我今天直接解破了你們這些國防智庫的問題"},{"start":6621.328,"end":6635.424,"text":"美國前參謀首長聯席會主席馬克‧麥利曾表示美國能在30個小時內整備60%兵力至台海地區"},{"start":6637.226,"end":6655.207,"text":"也是派兵到台海地區不是加入戰鬥意思就是說國軍至少要獨立支撐30個小時我們有沒有能力支撐3個小時而不是國防智庫所講的到台海要45分鐘就好了"},{"start":6657.623,"end":6677.495,"text":"跟委員報告,如果他是一定要做這個登陸作戰的話,我們是會找到他最脆弱的點以一個不對稱作戰的一個防衛的一個概念來打擊他的最脆弱點,讓他的這個有生戰力在登島作戰的時候能夠失敗所以我想請教一下部長,你認不認同國防智庫蘇紫雲所講的這句話45分鐘,你認不認同?"},{"start":6683.955,"end":6705.742,"text":"我一再的講就是說我們不會去講我們什麼幾分鐘幾分鐘幾十分鐘或者幾天這些事情我們的目標就是讓他的登島作戰會失敗這是我們的建立備戰的目標部長我現在要告訴你的身為一個國防智庫不能隨便亂講話這製造國內的緊張我像以下"},{"start":6712.346,"end":6720.876,"text":"針對我們今天的45分的說法來反駁第一個本席對於觀點若真的以彈劃"},{"start":6723.116,"end":6747.704,"text":"這個司令所說的這個蟒蛇戰略解放軍只要願意隨時可以封鎖台灣那就是表示解放軍可同時滿足兩個條件第一個讓台灣難以突圍第二讓外部武力難以進入干涉及區域拒止那第二個在"},{"start":6749.248,"end":6776.124,"text":"維台精遠一方面是台灣的施壓另一方面就是區域的拒止例如聯合力線的2024B遼寧號航空母艦編隊前往台灣東部海域就是演練區域拒止所以這個是美軍要從關島駛遠到台灣的困難度已經是大增了"},{"start":6776.644,"end":6803.257,"text":"所以今天我特別要提醒部長這樣的一個種種的問題怎麼會是45分鐘所以我今天就要把國防智庫蘇紫雲所講的一切都不是一個事實我們現在講的是我能不能支撐到30個小時美國聯席會主席所講的如果30個小時他可以遲遠到台灣海峽"},{"start":6804.978,"end":6807.383,"text":"不見得是要加入我們戰鬥的一個部隊"},{"start":6811.715,"end":6834.766,"text":"你來回答跟委員報告齁,我想還是要講一下蟒蛇戰略齁除了我剛剛講CSIS或者格蘭也有講到以外美國的邁阿密大學政治學教授也有提到就是說他發表一篇專文就是說在講的是說中國會從外交、經濟、軍事到對台灣的顛覆滲透的一系列打壓活動他把他這個比喻為這個中國的蟒蛇戰略這個是在講就是說"},{"start":6839.537,"end":6850.79,"text":"利用它這個沒有需要要用燈塔這個整個全面禁犯的這個手段來迫使以不斷的以來打壓台灣那"},{"start":6851.496,"end":6877.057,"text":"唐司令所講的應該也是引用這個來說明說中國正不斷地來進行對我們的這個法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰那真正如果說他要做到所謂的講到說所謂的封鎖我剛剛已經講過了全世界不可能坐視不管的因為他對全世界的經濟甚至包括對中國自己本身的經濟那個產生的那個重大的傷害是沒有一個國家可以承受的"},{"start":6877.757,"end":6896.578,"text":"台灣海峽在地緣政治上面的重要性台灣海峽在台灣在整個經濟安全上的重要性是沒有辦法被取代的所以我們不要太仰賴美國所說的能夠直言到我們這一來我們幾個小時但是我們國軍"},{"start":6899.021,"end":6910.035,"text":"國防能不能支撐到30小時所以這個就是一個警示那另外是我想請教一下我們經濟部的能源局部長請回"},{"start":6915.769,"end":6942.307,"text":"這一次聯合力艦的2024B傳出LNG的天然氣船受阻礙無法按預定的期程送出天然氣到我們的台灣雖然政府說這個是錯誤的假信息但是這個消息實際上凸顯出國人的不安請問一下我們能源司長"},{"start":6943.388,"end":6961.463,"text":"台灣的天然氣存量在供應給受屬的情況下能供應多久?」我們現在法規的就是在113年的時候天然氣的安全存量大概是8天左右到116年的時候可以到14天沒有吧"},{"start":6963.007,"end":6965.409,"text":"臺灣遭共進的封鎖能維持臺灣的能源供應及發電韌性,哪一種發電方式最可靠?」"},{"start":6989.85,"end":7006.495,"text":"我們現在就是用多元的發電方式是最可靠的那多元的方式最可靠那請問一下現在多元的方式是什麼樣多元的現在就是按照經濟規劃就是20、30、50然後呢就是綠電20然後這個30然後是50天然氣發電是50天然氣發電是50所謂天然氣將來的規劃2035年的時候是這樣子所謂天然氣天然氣是50%對所謂的天然氣的種類"},{"start":7018.678,"end":7042.453,"text":"天然氣的種類就是天然氣的發電啊就是LNG的發電LNG的嘛對是就靠這個嘛對50%現在的能源規劃就是這樣所以它的供應量如果真的一旦封鎖台灣我們的天然氣的供應量不是18天也不是14天真正的數據是7天所以你們自己本身要了解"},{"start":7043.935,"end":7067.392,"text":"天然氣是國人現在依賴的天然氣那如果一旦發生戰爭的時候我們天然氣能夠供給我們國內的天然氣有多少所以我們的儲存量有多少我剛剛跟委員報告就是在113年今年是差不多是8天左右那到116年的時候我們會把安全存量去拉到14天"},{"start":7069.864,"end":7084.207,"text":"所以我們今天我們特別要很多的地方不管台海的局勢我們天然氣是國人最關切的能源局局長你特別要注意到這一點好不好以上謝謝黃仁委員那接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7112.97,"end":7138.739,"text":"阿凡請國防部部長請顧部長是陳偉好部長好部長最近的重大的國安案件就如王定委有提到這個國防部的個資外流事件那這一次的範圍有多少人受到影響您說沒聽到"},{"start":7140.187,"end":7167.409,"text":"這次的個資外洩案件有多少人受到影響?」跟委員報告齁他這個部分是這樣子就是說他還是以內部軍網的方式以電子公文的方式發送給這個28個單位所以他還是在內部的這個各層辦單位那所揭露的是那一個他的服務單位職稱跟姓名這樣子這個資料而已沒有其他任何的資料就是"},{"start":7169.631,"end":7184.502,"text":"單位、職稱跟姓名,那還是在內部的各成班人員在內部的個案,但是中國時報有獨家掌握中國時報他是知道這個訊息,但是我並不確定他有沒有拿到這樣子的相關的這些文件"},{"start":7184.582,"end":7204.731,"text":"我們沒有辦法確定所以接下來要請部長那跟法務部那共同來去確定說是我們在第一時間要做好風險控管就是將那個電子公文已經全數刪除了再來就是說第一時間做這個控管大概是從反應到開始控管大概有多少的時間就隔天隔天嘛24小時之後對"},{"start":7205.751,"end":7226.668,"text":"那我希望說未來這個機制就是等到24小時之後該下載的下載完該把這些手記錄的用手把它記錄下來筆記記錄的大概也都記完了所以我們是希望說這一次就把它當作是經驗反應時間必須要加快第二部分承辦人員是法務部聯政署的政風室的人員嗎那這個承辦人員的機密層級是什麼機密 絕對機密"},{"start":7229.811,"end":7255.788,"text":"您說這個鎮瘋市的他的解密成績他的解密成績clearance他的解密成績是什麼我想他這個因為他相關的這些資料的話他在鎮瘋市的話他有一定的一個介面那實際的一個解密的成績我想我們回去再檢討一下謝謝部長我還是希望說回去檢討一下說如果他能夠碰觸到的"},{"start":7256.508,"end":7271.887,"text":"據媒體報導是直接從部長參謀總長到上校階級的將官那他的揭秘層級必須要非常高但是他如果只是一個正風式的承辦那到底是由法務部來去定義他的揭秘層級還是國防部我想這個以後要有一個完整的系統來規範"},{"start":7273.789,"end":7298.352,"text":"他如果是一個承辦人員但是他接觸到密等是最高機密但是我們給他安排的密等因為是法務部的政風是可能過去的依照他的位階可能給他安排的密等是機密那等於是說這就不符合這樣子的機制所以這個部分我是希望能夠來去做調整這個介密層級這個部分已經講很久了從2016年到現在就是"},{"start":7299.693,"end":7323.602,"text":"這個要確保一下 這個不是小的案件資安不是只有科技的技術而已 人因的因素還是很重要的這是這次的範圍 因為我想部長也不方便透露到底有多少人受到影響但是如果範圍很大 那我們很難去追蹤到他們接收到知曉之後除了媒體知道有這件事 還是知道有這些人還知道有這些人他們做什麼事情"},{"start":7324.082,"end":7348.778,"text":"那這個可能是接下來這一兩個月可能要聯合法務部一起來去做檢討跟委員報告第一個當然是法務部聯政署會要做一個行政調查第二個當然就是說因為相關的這個還是在內網的範圍之內那第三個當然就是說它所出去的這個部分是包括單位名稱、職稱跟姓名那有些部分並不是基民比如說像我"},{"start":7349.498,"end":7351.24,"text":"國防部、國防部長、國防部長、國防部長"},{"start":7371.676,"end":7391.658,"text":"灰色地帶的侵擾我們這次也提到封鎖跟隔離那上一次我們是針對封鎖的部分花比較多的時間這次想針對隔離的部分那部長也知道說現在隔離的處置就不是軍事上面用軍艦或者是直接用軍隊來去做這個全面性的封鎖那所以說他可能他"},{"start":7393.096,"end":7409.88,"text":"中國可以用去棄毒、去查走私、做公衛檢疫、搜尋逃犯等於是用這樣的方式還是可以達成接近封鎖的做法目前我看我們現在根據這個CSIS的資料把這個相關的中國的"},{"start":7414.321,"end":7440.432,"text":"海警的盾位和船艦的數量來做比較的話我們台灣的海巡基本上是遠遠的不足但是另一方面我們也必須思考說他必須在守衛的是他們整個非常大的海岸線那我們台灣只要守衛台灣就好那我專為一嘛所以我們的資源可以做更有效的運用現在的這樣子的海巡的能量"},{"start":7441.693,"end":7456.441,"text":"國防部有沒有可能提供退役的盾位的船艦以及聯繫友好的國家來去取得其他國家的相關的這種海巡的這種不是軍艦但是能夠直巡海巡的船艦"},{"start":7459.042,"end":7472.887,"text":"我覺得海巡跟其他國家的合作並不是由我來回答而且這個部分也不是以公開來過於討論我當然是有些理解可能這個是要由海巡來回答但"},{"start":7474.467,"end":7502.188,"text":"我個人會覺得可能也不是以來公開來做說明中國的海警他是基本上從他們的國防部接收大量的退役他們的軍艦來擴充他們現在新造的艦也很多對 那我的意思是說如果中國可以大量的利用他們退役的軍艦的話我們國防部有沒有可能因為我們現在必須第一時間要因應的就是灰色地帶有沒有相關可以跟海巡把這些相關退役船艦來移交給海巡的可能性"},{"start":7503.717,"end":7521.973,"text":"他跟委員報告,我們自己現在都要來應付灰色地帶,我們要進行清醒循環線的造艦所以我們應屬灰色地帶,確實中國一個對我們非常大的挑戰是在對我們進行一些消耗戰,這個是無可否認的一個事實"},{"start":7522.794,"end":7540.282,"text":"所以我們要是適切的來應處那對於這種灰色地帶洗腦我們要跟海巡來共同協處那海巡當然現在有相當的一個燒素的一個新建的建造的計畫正在執行當中就會不斷的會有比較大型的軍艦"},{"start":7541.562,"end":7557.706,"text":"有幾位委員提到空中的能量所以我們海巡這邊沒有定義機這樣子去協助那有沒有可能考慮與民間合作用租借的方式來去暫時把這個空中的力量做彌補我想我們應該"},{"start":7560.608,"end":7571.668,"text":"海軍會來協助海巡做這個相關的見證的這個活動那我們也會來發展這個相關的這些以無人機的方式來做這個空中的見證的這個作為"},{"start":7573.882,"end":7589.527,"text":"好 謝謝那如果在另外一部分全動數它是在11年1月它成立那11年2月開始檢討醫療的量能那在今年我們在看到5月的時候全台的輸液藥物大缺貨"},{"start":7590.447,"end":7604.842,"text":"不知道這個部分國防部的這個全動數有沒有整合相關的資源來了解到有這樣的狀況之前有先檢測到有可能會有這樣子的情勢發生嗎因為現在是在成平時期喔"},{"start":7605.697,"end":7627.33,"text":"那根據這個衛福部他把最新的這個資料給我們他說9月的時候食藥署說10月底前還是沒有辦法恢復生產比如說我們全動數也好或者是說我之前也是在質詢這個退服會的時候我們都說有定期來去確保說我們的醫療量能那基本上都是足夠的可是現在在成名時期"},{"start":7628.331,"end":7654.628,"text":"都有這樣的問題是不是可以請衛福部來簡單的回應一下跟國防部之間的資訊是怎麼樣整合的好 謝謝委員先跟委員報告就是說其實跟國防部這邊我們之前有一些相關的國家必要戰備藥材還有一些必要藥材的部分事實上是有一些囤儲那也很抱歉就是說在生理食品水這個部分因為其實過去生理食品水是一個很普遍而且有非常多家廠商在生產的一個產品"},{"start":7655.669,"end":7675.167,"text":"所以這個部分過去並沒有被列在Essential Drugs在聯合國也沒有但是這次的狀況比較特別是說因為永豐它是戰事佔7成的一個廠商所以當它因為品管的部分沒有辦法通過我們後續的核定的時候那出現了7成的產品沒有辦法供應所以才會出現市面上的短缺的問題"},{"start":7676.248,"end":7697.617,"text":"這個部分衛福部這邊也謝謝大家能夠同意讓我們用專案進口的方式先用國外的產品先來致應那國內我們有很多家廠商他原來佔三成那些廠商他們也幫我們加工加班那做了因應的部分那目前我們持續的輔導這家廠商那廠商這邊已經在大包裝的沖洗液都已經可以完成已經"},{"start":7698.117,"end":7700.378,"text":"在11月底如果能夠確認品管的話我們應該可以在12月開始這一家原來供應七成的廠商可以供應謝謝次長您這個"},{"start":7726.955,"end":7754.482,"text":"解釋得非常完善我簡單跟部長講一下就是說我們現在做的每件事情做國防的準備在經濟上面都是沒有效益的經濟上面沒有效益是在過去我們的這個工業社會來講我們要全力追求效益最大化但是我們現在做的事情不應該追求效益最大化因為我們要面臨的是可能會遇到的衝突可能會遇到的封鎖可能會遇到的隔離所以我們必須要事先先思考說這可能對我們的經濟效益是"},{"start":7755.302,"end":7785.022,"text":"沒有幫助的因為任何的囤積本身就是經濟效益是不會滿足的所以這個是這個mindset我們要先準備好所以如果說我們要花這麼多心力要到10月、12月的時候才可以把它完成的滿足我們現在的需求的話那所以說整個整備的過程是更加困難的所以我今天講的這個全動數我不是在攻擊全動數我覺得這是要還好我們兩年前就開始在做這些準備的所以我們現在才可以站在這個質詢台來質詢說我們現在部署的地方"},{"start":7785.482,"end":7798.133,"text":"那未來的兩年、三年會隨著每一次的質詢每一次我們的精進我們才會有足夠的能量去量能去做調配嗎那接下來請那個農業部請副市長"},{"start":7811.823,"end":7830.714,"text":"副長根據美國交通大學聖利亞格分校最新資訊糧食供需年報他說台灣的糧食自給率現在是30.3%創下18年新低我想請教因為飲食的需求是改變的所以說包括雜糧的自給率也是在降低"},{"start":7831.755,"end":7842.085,"text":"現在除了倒座四選三、雜糧二轉等政策農業部有沒有辦法適度把倒座面積轉為雜糧面積讓我們的自給率更加平衡就是說不是只有夠而且還要多元"},{"start":7843.697,"end":7862.589,"text":"好那這邊回復委員那其實在農業部其實也在進行一級二轉3加3的部分其中在二轉事實上就是就我們現行雜糧比較不足的部分去做所謂的雜糧面積的一個擴展那把原本倒做的部分本來可能比較不是在這方面生產我們轉做雜糧部分來擴展這個面積"},{"start":7864.93,"end":7885.126,"text":"對那這個地方要請教因為平時黃豆、小麥、玉米的進口跟庫存是經濟部負責那米的部分是由農業部所以剛才我們詢問幾個聯絡國會的人提供給我們的資料那遇到這個緊急狀態整體的糧食物資調備是由經濟部、農業部還是權動署來去做分配工作的協調"},{"start":7886.909,"end":7903.854,"text":"跟委員家報告,其實我們農業部就整個我們的庫存會定體的一個盤點那整個相關的一個剛剛就我們的一個供應的部分我們來負責那至於相關的一個配售整體的部分我們當然經濟部做民生物資的一個整個調配好謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7911.261,"end":7934.797,"text":"等一下許曉欣委員諮詢完畢後休息5分鐘然後接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台諮詢謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長安全局黃副局長、國安局"},{"start":7941.542,"end":7970.372,"text":"是另一位好兩位好主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍對於我們透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰術然後如果來進行封鎖台灣的時候相關的國安危機以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵的技術啦物資有沒有可能被封鎖我想這個是非常重要的命題不過通常是這樣外部勢力如果對台進行封鎖我們可以"},{"start":7971.272,"end":7991.802,"text":"去考量到底多少天然後我們可以撐多久但是最怕的是什麼理應外合啊如果內部有人搞破壞有人知道了這些訊息這些資訊把它洩露出去那我覺得才是更恐怖的所以前面的這些委員垂行過的題目我不講我反而希望是從"},{"start":7994.734,"end":8010.494,"text":"我們從國防部的報告有特別提到就是在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後其實是要做跨部會的整合那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面最怕的就是"},{"start":8011.84,"end":8024.74,"text":"在國內也就是在台灣是有透過內應的力量在跨部會的整合當中部長還有副局長今天局長沒有來那麼我們在內部"},{"start":8026.448,"end":8045.3,"text":"是不是過去曾經林中斌有說啦當年就已經講中國對台不見已成那麼在這個所謂的整合當中目前對台的內應的力量在台內部內應的力量是什麼樣一個狀況"},{"start":8046.781,"end":8066.739,"text":"國防部長或是副局長都可以謝謝委員那委員垂醒的在台的內應力量確實是有存在那這個我們大家都有掌搜國安團隊都有掌搜而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範我們會請"},{"start":8068.681,"end":8075.847,"text":"我們國安團隊包括調查局、縣指部等還有警政署等司法警察機關立案來做一個偵辦那現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中?"},{"start":8077.981,"end":8102.423,"text":"好我就怕偵辦這個過程也會洩露出去其實為什麼會特別請部長上來顧部長上來的原因是因為全民防衛這個過去在兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜人人有責啦但是現在是當全民防衛的時候卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎因為我要強調的是"},{"start":8107.312,"end":8135.418,"text":"這兩天發生的新聞一個是發生在台中台中呢載著這些義男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片然後呢在台北市替代役的叫招當中也放了抖音的影片而且還宣稱中國很強很厲害甚至於在剛剛幾個質詢當中我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊中國很可怕"},{"start":8136.078,"end":8144.681,"text":"那像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在還是說它只是偶發的事件為什麼會這麼巧在載著義南的司機上面那我們只處罰司機、隨車人員但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎"},{"start":8153.925,"end":8177.502,"text":"又或者是說在台北市替代役的叫召當中你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣滅自我威風像這樣的狀況他到底是偶發還是說他已經有系統性的滲入台灣甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中是資資不足還是事實上已經被滲透部長"},{"start":8179.675,"end":8203.817,"text":"我想我的看法就是說我們一定要全國能夠團結然後要建立敵我意識這個是很重要的所以就這個部分剛剛感覺到遺憾那中國對我們的滲透跟進行認知作戰這個是相當綿密而廣泛的所以這些部分的存在"},{"start":8205.158,"end":8230.045,"text":"我們的民主社會當中呢一定會被當然有一個好處它就是會被揭發出來那揭發出來之後呢我們就要用這個我們大家的一個團結的一個力量來說明說像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰那這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責然後讓它不要再發生那剛剛講了"},{"start":8232.7,"end":8248.939,"text":"國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握好 部長那請問一下現在做全民防衛的教育的師資是哪裡來那麼是由國防部或權動署來做統籌嗎因為我必須講今天不論是台中義南這個事情又或者是台北市替代役"},{"start":8249.9,"end":8260.127,"text":"這台中市跟台北市這兩個案件是因為在現場不論是替代義男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁啊我今天是來這裡做教召或者是我來做講座結果發現整場沒有給我正確的傳達的正確的應該是全民動員的資訊反而是在長他人志氣滅自我威風但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣"},{"start":8276.058,"end":8279.199,"text":"還是說其實各縣市政府在做這樣的委辦事項的時候是有一種就是敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢在這個部分署長有關我們全民防衛全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責所以它區分到這一個社會教育那近期我們這個也都有辦這個全國性的講習來這個培育相關師資"},{"start":8305.529,"end":8331.104,"text":"那目前全國師資一共有多少?這因為在政戰局那邊所以我再跟他提供給委員另外一個還有一個就是所謂學校教育那也是由政戰局我們有跟大專業校合作來專門來培育所有學校教育的師資他有一套的系統那我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告那有關這個地方所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂的全民動員、全民國防教育"},{"start":8334.066,"end":8348.676,"text":"相關的講師、師資的時候是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓甚至於他該怎麼講想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎有 而且有教材好所以目前師資的狀況跟是否充足的部分是不是會後就交給我們國防外交委員會跟本席"},{"start":8362.718,"end":8366.162,"text":"本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是第一架切可搶標"},{"start":8383.667,"end":8408.805,"text":"進入台灣市場。」那麼我想這種所謂透過跟台灣的代理商合作然後從中國車變身台灣車然後進而低價搶標政府機關這個包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府其實我都希望能夠去注意包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案打開來看就會發現中國車已經變身了台灣車但是"},{"start":8413.448,"end":8434.968,"text":"公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府重要的官員至於公共汽車呢我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷同樣的回到我剛開始的命題就是就怕外面進攻我們守得住但是從裡面裡應外合我們就無法擋"},{"start":8436.289,"end":8448.698,"text":"如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類的話提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統例如公路系統所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施請問黃副局長"},{"start":8456.496,"end":8478.875,"text":"關鍵具有設施來講它是設施的定義我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備它的產能能跟我們生活息息相關的這種所以你如果說是固定的那我就教一下那高速鐵路啦或是公車或者是"},{"start":8480.29,"end":8490.299,"text":"所謂的火車所以這些都不算基礎設施只有鐵軌才算是這個意思嗎所以公路、路算公車不算副局長你要確定你的定義喔國家關鍵基礎設施的定義是剛剛講的那個是車站是界定航空站港口這個都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施的"},{"start":8505.191,"end":8526.091,"text":"所以現在是以硬體為主所以說一台公車在全國的境內啪啪走如果它成為會自然的不定時炸彈它不算是關鍵基礎設施包括國安單位包括調查局要去了解的嗎因為我們現在都知道喔車子只要是聯動上網、車聯網"},{"start":8529.622,"end":8551.042,"text":"我們買中國貨它隨時可以從外部來做干預來做啟動這是非常危險的一個狀況不要忘了BB扣都可以爆炸更何況是一台移動在我們全國境內的公共汽車我會這樣講我不是空穴來風喔包括桃園的電動巴士"},{"start":8552.223,"end":8579.889,"text":"現在燒起來了運安會說什麼這個電池可能跟中國有關台中又是台中電動公車暗夜起火那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎為什麼請孫副局長上來是因為調查局有沒有去了解這到底只是個案還是部件已成、內應已成把電池都變成了移動的木馬圖城的新的工具呢孫副局長"},{"start":8583.159,"end":8605.559,"text":"委員好是有關中共對台灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態要去持續的了解那我們去年也針對不同的領域中共的顛覆滲透的案例也正辦很多案件那關於委員剛剛指教的這些問題我們也會加強去進一步的了解目前還是還沒有列正好 所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎我們會努力後面有點頭欸"},{"start":8610.137,"end":8616.84,"text":"沒有嗎?會努力還是後續會去了解?就是說我們對於各種違安的徵後我們都會陸陸續續掌握好 副局長為什麼會這樣講是因為很奇怪喔這個只要發現XE在這個藝男當中他們或者是替代役或者是全民動員相關的案例的時候好多縣市都出現然後"},{"start":8631.365,"end":8656.707,"text":"看到基隆公車燒起來了桃園也有電動巴士燒台中也有電動巴士燒奇怪了那這到底是發生了什麼事這樣的事件它本身背後有沒有跟中國有關是不是有內應有關這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會撼動人心我想在場的兩位都清楚啊國防我們有專業的"},{"start":8659.529,"end":8681.313,"text":"三軍將領擋在前面但是如果新防被攻破那是最恐怖的所以本席希望在這個部分從新防的部分包括其實今天我們在討論有關於到底台灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響我們能夠守多久灰色地帶就是要動搖民心今天講你說7天存糧夠不夠半年存糧夠不夠3年存糧夠不夠其實這都是一個新防的問題"},{"start":8687.794,"end":8711.841,"text":"但是就怕這些新防是在內部就已經被腐化那台灣就不用守了所以有關於現在中國的車聯網中國車中國電動車中國的電動公務車中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全台趴趴走我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告尤其是電池的部分我再強調跨境的BP扣都可以爆炸跨境的電池更可怕好嗎那你們要多久可以交一個報告"},{"start":8718.106,"end":8720.707,"text":"一個禮拜你們可以給報告接下來請林益君委員質詢"},{"start":8745.113,"end":8749.277,"text":"請衛福部 林次長請衛福部 林正次您好"},{"start":8761.909,"end":8779.383,"text":"我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後全球面臨的搶藥的風波當然國軍在各項的操演演練戰傷的救護為了貼近戰場的突發狀況強化全民的國防所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的"},{"start":8779.983,"end":8792.575,"text":"行政院也為了全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資包括外商常用的"},{"start":8793.683,"end":8804.388,"text":"抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒止吐的藥品還有紗布、還有棉花這次動用到第二預備金上億元總共有1億3812萬元全部都是購買外商用的戰略物資是不是這樣呢"},{"start":8811.211,"end":8837.744,"text":"報告委員我們有事先準備了外商準備的這一個包含藥品跟衛材來確保說因為台灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭啦事實上台灣我們都會面臨到複合式的災難那複合式災難的過程中甚至像之前COVID-19的時候我們如果沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品衛材這個一旦發生一些特殊狀況我們會有缺乏所以也跟委員報告我們有準備大概一定程度的這個藥品跟衛材包含外商還有一些必要的藥品"},{"start":8838.581,"end":8864.023,"text":"好當然這個動作也是引發關注啦當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候其實看到這個新聞我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了所以本席想要請教次長為何採購外商用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面是想要規避立法院的監督呢還是真的只是要單純清點戰備物資的利息性工作"},{"start":8866.665,"end":8886.301,"text":"跟委員報告就是說當然不敢規避但是這個部分當時應該是在就是俄羅斯戰爭之後的編列那當時的一些想法第一個是要因應緊急的狀況所以那個時候應該是這個原因編列當然因為不在我任內我沒有辦法回答但是還有一個狀況就是說因為這些是一個固定的編列那固定編列的部分我們會希望它不要佔用到原來"},{"start":8887.122,"end":8900.732,"text":"我們在重要的這些醫療應該有的公共預算原來的支出所以它是一個國家用一個比較中央型的立場去做一個準備那至於這個部分未來會不會常態編列這個部分可能要看上面的政策"},{"start":8901.697,"end":8919.345,"text":"今年的5月爆發輸液大廠用風化學招熱令的官場導致醫院手術、洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水、葡萄糖液都缺貨的危機連醫學中心都是難以倖免林次長你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧"},{"start":8919.605,"end":8947.643,"text":"是它是生理食鹽水的那個大包裝的那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水還有面具液還有葡萄糖、蔬液這些應該是戰略戰備的物質是非常重要的基本的醫療的用藥吧謝謝委員沒有錯不過因為之前它在之前沒有把它列入所謂essential drugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題"},{"start":8949.805,"end":8965.28,"text":"這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工、製造更多的產量"},{"start":8967.561,"end":8980.927,"text":"我們有詢問其他廠商願不願意增加生產線,再加開一條產線?加開產線,第一個投資要上億,第二個要超過一年以上的時間,所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做我們也積極輔導之前有不合規的廠商,目前已經可以供應大包裝的沖洗液"},{"start":8986.81,"end":9002.26,"text":"在注射液的部分因為它在相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為它終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農歷因為我們農歷年之前"},{"start":9003.1,"end":9029.061,"text":"運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入Essential Drugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠"},{"start":9030.222,"end":9034.072,"text":"能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造"},{"start":9035.27,"end":9061.57,"text":"好 其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導 謝謝好 那次長請回謝謝"},{"start":9065.131,"end":9070.055,"text":"那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是"},{"start":9090.305,"end":9104.952,"text":"面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢"},{"start":9111.055,"end":9139.921,"text":"沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海巡我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海巡來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作"},{"start":9140.541,"end":9169.122,"text":"尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎"},{"start":9177.523,"end":9194.836,"text":"我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像一直以來都是那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎"},{"start":9198.185,"end":9212.844,"text":"是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢"},{"start":9214.575,"end":9237.323,"text":"跟委員報告除了平常我們海域執法外那目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶的襲擾所以不僅是海戰執法我們還面對中共的脅迫那另外平戰轉換之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列所以我們的海軍暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎?"},{"start":9239.164,"end":9267.183,"text":"平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換好 那海巡艦上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嘛第一種是難停船隻的時候做一個警告的射擊另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個火力的壓制嘛但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用火力"},{"start":9268.064,"end":9280.112,"text":"去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過"},{"start":9290.84,"end":9318.515,"text":"目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊 但是你剛才說沒有用過啊 對不對對啊 那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊 艦又說你剛才說沒有用過啊 這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西"},{"start":9320.416,"end":9322.178,"text":"會不會有點太扯了呢?」"},{"start":9340.58,"end":9347.203,"text":"好 因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計劃3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼 要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點 因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴竹勢鈴了呢"},{"start":9366.212,"end":9390.016,"text":"因為我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果"},{"start":9392.11,"end":9407.642,"text":"好啦 反正我時間有限啦 那我就直接建議就是說 如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了 因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要 像剛才說的 如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦"},{"start":9408.923,"end":9413.205,"text":"本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題"},{"start":9437.981,"end":9441.825,"text":"再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳"},{"start":9458.403,"end":9477.291,"text":"個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢"},{"start":9477.951,"end":9497.556,"text":"第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報諸位的一個28個單位那也不是以任何電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人"},{"start":9498.556,"end":9521.693,"text":"那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區一格的處理有一些具有機敏能源身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊"},{"start":9528.038,"end":9555.484,"text":"因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了 可以嗎是 我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部連政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子"},{"start":9556.965,"end":9558.207,"text":"好 謝謝部長接下來請沈博洋委員質詢"},{"start":9582.096,"end":9592.57,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先有請這個權重署署長跟戴耀群副局長謝謝許署長和副局長"},{"start":9597.616,"end":9620.868,"text":"好 謝謝齁 那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說"},{"start":9621.528,"end":9646.435,"text":"他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定它的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何"},{"start":9648.287,"end":9674.181,"text":"跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造"},{"start":9675.482,"end":9700.131,"text":"我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在這個機密會議或者說事後再來辦公室報告"},{"start":9704.492,"end":9723.548,"text":"但另外一個就是說他裡面有提到這一個裡面印度移工的這一個案件那印度移工這個案件當然當時其實那時候我們還在民間我們就有發現其實很多都是用同樣的劇本就是說他的這個抖音的影片或TikTok的影片但即使他有共同這個協作的行為不代表他跟中國有關"},{"start":9724.849,"end":9734.953,"text":"所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼?就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼?有沒有去做這件事?"},{"start":9737.975,"end":9758.704,"text":"事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛很多訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛文秀所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握"},{"start":9759.384,"end":9786.798,"text":"那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序跟科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們就依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清"},{"start":9787.518,"end":9807.169,"text":"我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候"},{"start":9807.569,"end":9826.738,"text":"其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做啦是那這一個 畢竟這一個NHK的報導也才剛出來嘛所以我覺得局裡面如果有一個回應的話對於讓一般民眾了解到底什麼叫做中國操作我覺得會有幫助是 謝謝委員"},{"start":9828.719,"end":9854.561,"text":"另外我想問 因為今天的主題是這個封鎖這次的封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息這個假消息刪除得非常的快而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到"},{"start":9855.021,"end":9877.336,"text":"而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色今天的主題它是有提到這幾個"},{"start":9878.357,"end":9901.287,"text":"包含關鍵物資的自主、民生物資、還有醫療物資這是今天的主題,我們照為定的主題裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的,因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天,今天交通部有來嗎"},{"start":9903.866,"end":9931.583,"text":"交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個它算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡"},{"start":9932.723,"end":9955.039,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的"},{"start":9955.939,"end":9976.212,"text":"包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟全動數有關就要盤點這一些事情但因為我覺得一年有點"},{"start":9977.012,"end":9992.118,"text":"我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面"},{"start":9992.498,"end":10008.734,"text":"今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下那這樣明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即的去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度"},{"start":10010.675,"end":10026.42,"text":"基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個"},{"start":10029.321,"end":10049.959,"text":"整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好 謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資"},{"start":10051.52,"end":10069.342,"text":"伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶造成蠻大的困擾"},{"start":10070.483,"end":10099.251,"text":"那台灣現在目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口那我們台灣自己的廠商其實它並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少所以呢那是不是可以請次長說明一下就是說關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能就是說不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法"},{"start":10099.551,"end":10120.59,"text":"現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴"},{"start":10121.351,"end":10147.441,"text":"所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告"},{"start":10148.501,"end":10170.451,"text":"謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為紙血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把紙血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估"},{"start":10170.971,"end":10186.262,"text":"因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好"},{"start":10186.462,"end":10204.207,"text":"沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有它需要去盤點的,還有它需要去連結的部會"},{"start":10206.307,"end":10235.358,"text":"非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關"},{"start":10236.078,"end":10259.458,"text":"但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業"},{"start":10264.483,"end":10281.443,"text":"所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這是日本"},{"start":10282.315,"end":10298.921,"text":"他們去看這些他盤點完之後呢他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術啦可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫啦人才挖角啦商業間諜啦強制計轉啦他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法"},{"start":10299.421,"end":10322.912,"text":"所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢"},{"start":10323.712,"end":10340.666,"text":"如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這一個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題"},{"start":10344.409,"end":10360.814,"text":"就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判"},{"start":10361.714,"end":10382.89,"text":"所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再責成一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來謝謝謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員"},{"start":10391.912,"end":10395.175,"text":"接下來我們請徐曉欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席,我們先請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":10417.079,"end":10428.816,"text":"徐委員好部長好先簡單請問一下就是說這個中國大陸他從這個聯合歷屆A跟B的這個演習啊就您觀察而言A跟B的主要差別您覺得是在於哪裡"},{"start":10430.717,"end":10459.266,"text":"這個我想在上一個禮拜我大概有回答過了大概有一幾個特徵當然就是說他遼寧艦他在這個我們的東南面那艦載機起飛那這個部分是一個重點那另外當然就是說他這一次的海警船增加就是說大概過去在東面的A是4艘那現在擴大到整個12艘"},{"start":10460.106,"end":10469.213,"text":"針對現在的A、B兩次軍演封鎖目前我們自己評估台灣的突圍能力是如何的以及在跟中國大陸軍演的應對過程當中我們要如何避免軍事衝突"},{"start":10487.929,"end":10511.639,"text":"根委員報告因為我已經一再的回答就是說他這個因為他這次宣布他這是一個drill他是一個操演的一個行為他不是真正要進入這一個是真正的封鎖的狀態那我的意思已經是說他如果真正要進入封鎖的這樣的一個狀態應該就是一個軍事行動然後是一個交戰行為"},{"start":10512.439,"end":10536.736,"text":"對那這個時候我們國軍整個是進入一個應急作戰的階段那對於這樣子的一個封鎖我們可以合法的行使自衛反擊那這個是國際法上所認可的一個作為那我們相關的這些所謂對於它如果啦齁如果它是單純的進行封鎖而沒有後續的武力攻擊的話那對於這個封鎖如何來應對當然我們也有相關的應對的方式"},{"start":10538.817,"end":10554.667,"text":"那我另外也要再說明就是說他如果真的單純實施這樣的一個封鎖我認為全世界不可能坐視不管因為他影響全球的經濟實在太巨大了這個包括自己的中國經濟大概商人十分自己智商大概都也要六七分嘛"},{"start":10555.007,"end":10573.954,"text":"是,而且對台灣來講也是一個重擊所以我們希望就是說在於如果未來他們以封鎖之時那實際上是行這個統戰也不叫統戰,他們統戰在各個地方就是說威脅到台灣的這個安全的時候那國防部有自己我們應對的這個方式"},{"start":10576.515,"end":10598.609,"text":"現在這個階段應該只是在操演,就是在做一個心理規則對,他們現在只是在做這個演習而已啦我只是說我們要預判未來可能發生的情況做一些提醒那謝謝喔,那請那個內政部替代役中心也一起上台好嗎因為我們今天主要要問的問題是跟這個專長還有研發替代役有關的事情喔"},{"start":10601.087,"end":10621.836,"text":"那剛好因為好不容易這個機會就我們國防部跟這個內政部我們研發替代役相關搭在一起所以特別想提這個問題來我們給大家看一下94年1月1號出生的役男他們兵役改成一年之後現在所有的專長替代役跟研發替代役是不是都已經取消了呢"},{"start":10623.564,"end":10651.383,"text":"包委現在94年次以後的一年目前目前是暫時不開放受理專長資格來申請扶體代役為什麼要把研發替代役跟專長替代役都刪除呢因為94年這部分因為它一起變成改變為一年那現在還在做一個研議那至於說像研發替代役的這一個部分94年次的它預判會到118年之後才會研究所畢業所以這個部分"},{"start":10651.983,"end":10672.573,"text":"不是每個人都讀研究所啊,像我都還沒畢業呢這部分因為到118年才會有影響到所以目前還在研究是不是到時候會來做一個開放好,那呢,依照這個產業及專長替代役的需求總緣額數式我們可以看一下這個研發替代役的緣額資料跟專長替代役的緣額資料"},{"start":10675.254,"end":10683.886,"text":"其實它的需求數跟入營人數以研發替代役來說其實也都還算是有蠻大的需求量"},{"start":10684.383,"end":10713.252,"text":"那今天我要特別講的一個類別就是說在這麼多的研發替代役裡面我要特別講一個類別也希望顧部長能夠了解看看就是這個電競大家都知道我們在體育上面電競啊台灣算是世界之光最近還在打那個LOL的全世界的大賽我們看到我們好多年輕人在這個LOL的這個競技大賽上面發光發熱那所以電子競技其實是一個現在很重要的體育賽事的運動"},{"start":10714.312,"end":10734.86,"text":"那電競跟體育選手很類似他們擔任職業選手的精華年齡普遍是在18歲你說到30歲其實都是年紀偏大了大概基本上18歲到20幾歲他們在電競圈活躍的年齡甚至比體育選手還要短因為他們同時是首腦並用所以呢"},{"start":10735.868,"end":10758.809,"text":"以這個階段來說法規就是服兵役的主要年紀所以我國也面對了普遍的體育選手有不同的兵役因為延期到一年之後的處理方式那主要就是替代役、補充役或是緩針那目前的專長替代役雖然有公告有人申請就有機會但是這些電競替代役的執行相關單位都是文化部主管"},{"start":10759.249,"end":10776.258,"text":"那現在這個政策在取消的狀態之下等於說這些電競選手的職業生涯就會碰到問題我們看一下電競專長替代役的這個數據那你看其實每年能夠申請的人數跟錄取的人數其實都是比例非常低的"},{"start":10776.658,"end":10801.148,"text":"那我們去問過這些電競選手就是有幾個原因啦第一個是說我們怎麼去認可這些賽事第二個就是說那他申請之後他實際上面在替代役的過程當中他能夠做什麼所以呢補充役的部分依據國家體育經濟代表隊的補充服兵役辦法那電競選手是可以包含在裡面的嗎就你們所知道的"},{"start":10802.998,"end":10824.929,"text":"這個部分據我們所知因為這個運動選手這部分是體育署所主管的沒錯所以這部分原則上他目前是沒有包含在這邊對所以他呢在這個體育競技補充兵役辦法裡面有提到某一些特殊等級的這個電競選手可以獲得補充役例如說呢像現行的規定是亞運才有"},{"start":10826.03,"end":10844.4,"text":"那明年國際奧運也會舉辦第一屆的這個電競奧運那當然如果電競把它納進這個相關的國家競技體育代表隊補充兵役辦法第三條第一項的運動項目也是一種解套的方式那但是我們想要問的是說啊電競選手會有符合緩針的資格嗎"},{"start":10848.835,"end":10865.228,"text":"我們看一下那個圖好不好這個第29條的附件因為徵兵第29條的副表第16類參加全國以上運動比賽也可以依據證明來緩徵到比賽結束為止但是電信選手是不是不符合這樣的資格"},{"start":10867.953,"end":10883.648,"text":"來幫我說明一下這個是延期徵集對他是接到徵集令之後來辦延期徵集那像這個部分他是可以來申請電競選手也可以嗎這是延期徵集的對我知道我是說延期徵集的部分電競選手也可以還徵嗎"},{"start":10885.93,"end":10912.305,"text":"以這個我是說第16條喔因為過去電競它沒有被分類在體育那是這幾年才把它分類到體育所以我想要問的是這個16項的緩針入營事故表裡面它提到了參加全國以上運動會比賽者應繳證明只要你提供相關機構證明都可以准予延期入營時間到比賽結束日子"},{"start":10912.765,"end":10938.4,"text":"那這個部分電競選手也可以去做申請嗎?是,他如果為了參加比賽這個部分的話那是可以辦理延期徵集但是他的前提是要接到徵集令啦對,當然啦當然啦我的意思就是說比如說我今天18歲嘛然後我剛畢業嘛然後我現在可能就是要打一個全國性的比賽可是我在這一年當中我接到冰單了那我是不是可以拿著我現在要去參加這個"},{"start":10940.981,"end":10960.115,"text":"電競比賽的證明然後來向你們辦理緩爭這個部分他就是他接到徵集令之後那他有這個延期徵集的需要就可以用這個部分來適用來辦理延期徵集好那這個部分就是我再跟您確認一次因為很多的電競選手特別擔心就是"},{"start":10961.696,"end":10973.183,"text":"電競它屬於運動賽事體育賽事的一環所以如果說我們的電競選手在打比賽在準備比賽的過程當中接到冰單可以以這個第29條內的副表第16類的參加全國以上運動會比賽者那能夠來緩爭"},{"start":10980.467,"end":11007.964,"text":"好那非常謝謝因為這個對於我們的電競選手來說我跟他們溝通過他們都非常的擔心一年期的兵役會去這個壓縮到他們的這個準備時間那再來那謝謝您謝謝再來我想要問這個部長這個關於國軍聘僱人員的部分就是部長您知道我們在國軍的公務人員跟聘僱人員的放假日有差別這件事情嗎"},{"start":11010.56,"end":11033.573,"text":"如果是聘僱人員的話他應該是適用勞基法的相關規定吧對但是呢在九三軍人節上面竟然是兩樣情我們可以看一下這個圖片你可以看喔如果按照我們國防部的國防法規資料庫裡面國防部的公務人員出勤事項裡面呢九三軍人節沒錯的話應該是放假吧"},{"start":11035.063,"end":11038.006,"text":"如果你是國軍聘僱人員請假規定你只能在五一勞動節和九三軍人節之間選擇一天來放假這就是剛您講到的因為聘僱可能是適用勞基法等等"},{"start":11053.612,"end":11075.835,"text":"但是五一勞動節換九三軍人節實際上面勞動契約就已經把它寫死了九三軍人節卻是配合機關作息的在國軍軍內支援的這些公務人員等於說這些聘僱人員就少一天的假"},{"start":11076.556,"end":11096.277,"text":"那部長我們這個五一上班的話那我們的薪資會多給嗎還是只能用換價的方式這有沒有任何雙方可以協議的方式可以來協助這些聘僱人員也能得到他們應該所屬的你剛剛說嗎勞工勞工權益"},{"start":11099.92,"end":11127.329,"text":"五一勞動節按照這個勞舉法的規定他屬於勞工的話應該就可以放假那現在如果按照這裡的休請假的規定當然我事先沒有看過不過如果按照這裡講他的應該是說他可以選擇跟九三軍人節則一致來放假所以按照他這個意思應該就是說他還是可以休假只是說他可以選擇在九三或者在五一的那一天來放假這樣來休假"},{"start":11128.109,"end":11153.764,"text":"那因為呢你們上面寫說五一跟九三二日擇一休假就是不能寫死說兩天互換不然就會違反這個勞基法所以呢我們是訴求是說啊五一勞動節公務人員沒有休假五一勞動節公務人員沒有休假那但是聘僱人員是你可以擇一休假嘛但是呢你這個五一勞動節"},{"start":11155.68,"end":11183.488,"text":"跟九三軍人節擇一休假的部分實際執行就是在聘僱人員在五一勞動節要求要上班跟九三軍人節一起休通常我們的狀況是這樣所以我們的建議是說呢就你看你要不要直接歇死比方說你就是五一勞動節你可以休假那九三軍人節你是屬於你是屬於這個你不是屬於軍方公務人員因為你是聘僱人員所以九三軍人節你就不放假"},{"start":11183.928,"end":11190.251,"text":"就說你不要用換價的方式你直接寫清楚他們是屬於哪一種的勞僱關係我覺得這樣子在整個我們跟這個聘僱人員雙方的合約請假規定上面會比較明確不然的話呢你這樣寫說好像可以選擇但實際上很多日常時候啊他們根本沒有選擇的機會"},{"start":11204.116,"end":11229.993,"text":"就變成是說長官要他放哪一次他就放哪一次所以我的建議是既然93軍人節是軍人在放那聘僱人員呢那他如果是屬於勞動的勞動契約的那你就是讓他放五一勞動節那93軍人節就不放假就是大家一個一個要寫清楚這是我比較具體的建議那這部分部長您再回去思考看看不急著給我做回應但是如果有新的進度的話再麻煩再跟我們說是好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":11235.041,"end":11238.449,"text":"謝謝許曉欣委員部長請回現在先休息5分鐘"},{"start":11629.807,"end":11654.179,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 那我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席 是不是麻煩有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長然後交通部跟經濟部的代表如果可以的話就一起上來協助經濟部"},{"start":11660.729,"end":11663.572,"text":"經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在是不是"},{"start":11706.46,"end":11709.371,"text":"經濟部跟交通部如果有同仁在的話上來協助部長"},{"start":11732.223,"end":11757.511,"text":"各位好,時間的關係不一一問候中國對於台灣的威脅以及所謂的國衛中 strategy我想最近幾年受到了不僅僅是台灣國際社會關心台灣國家安全的都很關注一直到今年CSIS還是一直試解說中國主要的target是高雄港"},{"start":11758.591,"end":11780.84,"text":"我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注說中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄的入侵我們的高雄港其中有兩個重要的target一個是第六貨櫃中心一個是65跟66號碼頭"},{"start":11783.121,"end":11798.17,"text":"第6戶口中心控制的這個高明碼頭公司裡面有個大股東叫做振隆投資公司振隆投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院這件事情應該大家都有掌握吧"},{"start":11800.751,"end":11814.659,"text":"部長如果不清楚請經濟部的回答沒關係我在國安會的時候有對這個事情有一些了解是那這個正榮投資公司他的母公司應該是中共的國務院我應該沒有理解錯誤吧"},{"start":11817.097,"end":11831.527,"text":"這個是我當初整理的資料這次準備這個質詢的時候我把2018年最終的歷程到今天我完整的再把它回顧一次有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現"},{"start":11832.788,"end":11855.681,"text":"但是這件事情應該沒有錯第一個可能比較關鍵的問題就是說因為控制我們第六碼頭的公司這個高明碼頭股份有限公司竟然有個大股東他如果只是當股東危害相對有嚴輕可是他派了三席董事他派了三席董事"},{"start":11856.701,"end":11881.752,"text":"他派了三級董事然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司部長你覺得適合嗎這部分我在國安會的時候我了解就是說他是應該是我們有去了解就是說他的這個資安的這個部分應該有去了解那另外好像是一個他"},{"start":11883.133,"end":11895.308,"text":"租用跟這個碼頭相關的一個措施部長 我跟你澄清一下分兩個部分你剛剛租用的那個是不是有那個相關的規範那個是6566碼頭的現在我先跟你處理"},{"start":11899.193,"end":11915.989,"text":"就是有關於高米碼頭的部分第六貨櫃中心第一個就是說我可能要拜託大家注意一下因為這個已經引起了國際社會大家的關注特別是我們的盟友"},{"start":11916.73,"end":11936.448,"text":"包括日本、包括美國大家都很關注因為這個事情不是今天才發生我為什麼這樣子講就是剛剛部長所講的65、66號碼頭我2018年質疑的時候那時候經濟部回落說租賃港口不是投資行為"},{"start":11937.669,"end":11957.463,"text":"因為這是租賃行為而不是投資行為所以投審會不會去管這件事情但問題是說在司法上的關係到底是租還是其他的方式我們在意的事情是什麼我們在意的事情是碼頭是不是被人家控制了即使是租的"},{"start":11958.547,"end":11981.792,"text":"它也有管領使用權。」那這樣是不是一個適合的行為當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字說這個是租賃行為這不是投資行為所以他們管不到那這樣的說法我老實講大家沒有辦法接受啦從國家安全的角度來講這樣的說法簡直是在開玩笑到2021年的時候美國智庫"},{"start":11986.294,"end":11997.438,"text":"這個Project 2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭"},{"start":12010.47,"end":12027.079,"text":"對中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後"},{"start":12034.278,"end":12056.633,"text":"那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼"},{"start":12057.674,"end":12081.146,"text":"那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊"},{"start":12082.066,"end":12086.595,"text":"最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊"},{"start":12094.998,"end":12114.07,"text":"還是再繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決"},{"start":12115.305,"end":12133.951,"text":"那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎"},{"start":12137.938,"end":12163.732,"text":"我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題"},{"start":12165.353,"end":12192.029,"text":"牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛"},{"start":12195.589,"end":12195.669,"text":"是一級關鍵設施"},{"start":12200.339,"end":12227.558,"text":"那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project 2049大家都在關心這一件事情"},{"start":12229.588,"end":12243.54,"text":"中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕"},{"start":12244.707,"end":12271.979,"text":"要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個"},{"start":12273.563,"end":12294.373,"text":"繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容"},{"start":12297.586,"end":12313.649,"text":"這邊向委員報告我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛這個你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認"},{"start":12324.909,"end":12345.982,"text":"我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊"},{"start":12347.665,"end":12374.459,"text":"行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個 你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦"},{"start":12376.653,"end":12395.783,"text":"招牌一樣啊 人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦"},{"start":12397.315,"end":12418.986,"text":"這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛"},{"start":12422.762,"end":12432.711,"text":"你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下"},{"start":12451.658,"end":12453.348,"text":"需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」"},{"start":12455.11,"end":12482.038,"text":"報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛"},{"start":12483.278,"end":12498.782,"text":"這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核"},{"start":12512.941,"end":12532.067,"text":"不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己無藥無菌不要只給我書面報告"},{"start":12540.595,"end":12567.774,"text":"公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講"},{"start":12569.963,"end":12591.356,"text":"但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車"},{"start":12594.13,"end":12604.874,"text":"再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎"},{"start":12613.851,"end":12634.129,"text":"因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝"},{"start":12636.546,"end":12640.69,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室然後部長請回那接下來我們請張祺凱委員上台質詢"},{"start":12668.159,"end":12686.948,"text":"請國防部長今天主席安排了一個非常好、很重要的專報因為之前你特別提到說"},{"start":12688.499,"end":12717.28,"text":"中共現在在灰色地帶的襲擾還有經濟上的恫嚇一直在加大中共演習越來越大越來越不容易去掌握所以有可能由訓轉演、由演轉戰這個可能性嘛那包括我們的海軍的司令唐華接受經濟學人這個專訪的時候一共啊中國大陸那邊現在用的是蟒蛇戰略所以他們隨時可能會封鎖台灣所以今天這個會非常非常的重要我要請問部長的是"},{"start":12718.41,"end":12746.338,"text":"部長有感受到兩岸的戰爭一步一步在靠近嗎?我會這樣問一個很重要除了你剛剛講的理論之外最近發生了一件事就是教育部調查的學生扶擒意願書有些家長是擔心的你有感覺到有聞到兩岸的戰爭氣氛一步一步在靠近嗎?我想跟委員報告國防部立場一向是備戰而不求戰但是我們還是要進行備戰"},{"start":12748.893,"end":12776.943,"text":"當然戰爭是沒有贏家的大家看一下這個畫面這是烏日戰爭基輔戰前跟日後的這個對比你看左邊那個圖左上角那個戰爭完之後變成左下角右上角那個圖戰爭之後變成下面這個烏日戰爭兩年多本來很富庶平和的烏克蘭現在死亡人數最新統治"},{"start":12778.702,"end":12800.577,"text":"8萬人,烏克蘭死亡了20萬人生靈塗炭,戰爭都沒有贏家所以我要請問部長所以我們要譴責的是侵略者嗎?侵略者,對對對所以我們要做好我們沒有要侵略對,我們做好避戰也做好備戰的準備嘛所以柏廷我問你一個問題嘛如果我們也要備戰那戰爭如果發生的時候,部長"},{"start":12803.206,"end":12813.142,"text":"你要怎麼樣去凝聚國人的向心力,如何去提升全民的士氣?」你怎麼回事?你當過國安會秘書長跟做保定,你對這個應該是很有研究對不對?"},{"start":12814.11,"end":12834.978,"text":"我想我們就是要加強這個全民對於這個敵情日劇嚴峻的這樣子的一個情況來凝聚國人的一個團結然後來強化全社會防衛的韌性我現在看到的是40萬名利嘛然後高章生意要不要去扶請議員書嘛我給你看一個很成功的個案好不好部長看到這個應該會有些感慨喔這個照片你給阿扁那個人生嘛你也認得陳志忠嘛"},{"start":12843.083,"end":12869.653,"text":"你看到這個當初青春正盛的陳志忠公他明年要去當兵他的爸爸是陳水扁你看到這張照片你有什麼感覺你這個問題一再的跟我問然後一再的叫我而且等一下問你啊你之前有問過你陳志忠這個照片嗎你看到這張照片你有什麼感覺尤其他說這句話很重要啊他說他妹妹要去做兵啊他們爸爸是阿扁啊"},{"start":12871.104,"end":12890.638,"text":"這個文件很重要啊 這個扭轉了2000年的總統大選喔老蔣也很感人啊 你看他左邊講的這個那個部長我念不得聽喔 他說天啊北部心啊沒有一個總統 管理自己的家庭 推向戰爭每個小孩都是父母的心頭肉啊我現在在問你的事 你看到這張照片 看到這樣的話有什麼感覺"},{"start":12897.182,"end":12913.861,"text":"我想我們要強化自我防衛能力跟決心這是我們國防部的立場就是這樣子那是不是請那個賴清德賴總統也要跟陳水扁陳總統請議一下陳總統是自己的小孩去當兵啊當初大家也鼓掌叫好啊"},{"start":12915.47,"end":12941.309,"text":"這是第一個要做的我看今天很多將官在加起來一百顆星星喔很多將官為國盡心盡力很多小孩後來也都當了兵嘛對不對要不要呼籲賴總統跟陳水扁總統學習就是比較重要的我們家台灣的高官們不是只有40萬名利的問題啊也不是只有調查高中生要不要去扶秦啊"},{"start":12942.403,"end":12963.224,"text":"高官要做點榜樣吧,甘便在台灣如果最能夠提振士氣的能夠凝聚向心力的兩個人嘛那總統啊,這就是你啊,是你部長我想任何一個人他按照這個相關憲法跟法律的規定他應該要盡他這個相關的義務包括服兵役等等應該都會做"},{"start":12965.592,"end":12991.597,"text":"阿扁阿驚陳志忠這個文宣阿為什麼那麼感動人一個是他以身作者他真的去當兵當然後來他去當兵發生了一些波折可是他講到天啊白無心小孩是心頭肉沒有一個父母現在就是這段時間有一些父母開始擔心嘛第二個下面這個話還很重要阿他說孩子都要去服兵役了所以阿扁阿說他最不希望也最不願意的"},{"start":12992.659,"end":13018.332,"text":"就是台灣發生戰爭了我們也不願意台灣發生戰爭我們都希望維持現狀對 維持現狀 這很好 對可是萬一發生的時候要該做什麼事情來 全世界有一個非常成功的點辦大家看看 以色列以色列啊 最近發生以哈戰爭啊他們的總理本來小孩是在美國的在邁阿密 緊急就回國去了"},{"start":13020.25,"end":13045.508,"text":"那時候以色列媒體還做了一份很重要的名單大家知道嗎?那個名單叫什麼?以色列部長及以上高官的子女參戰的名單這個是以色列媒體做的喔他們包括總理的兒子、總統的兒子、兩名無職務的部長五個孩子社會保險部的兒子、交通部的部長的長女他們是男女都接兵喔"},{"start":13047.231,"end":13070.47,"text":"連長女都去當兵了 移民跟整合部的部長 倒數第三行顧部長 以色列勞動部的部長有4個小孩還有他4個子女跟他的女婿全部都當兵了這個家庭至少8個人 搞不好12個人去當兵了全民皆兵啊 所以以色列才那麼強啊"},{"start":13071.957,"end":13100.515,"text":"部長我當然知道我們今天要追求和平要避戰對不對不希望小孩上戰場去阿那問題是現在看起來戰爭離我們越來越近然後整個氣氛又那麼不好我們是不是該做一點事情那我們看下面這一張能不能我現在問的問題是當以色列的媒體列出一個部長級以上的小孩的參戰名單台灣的呢中華民國高官子女不要說參戰名單有沒有一個備戰的名單"},{"start":13102.321,"end":13123.9,"text":"是不是要先問幾個事情,否定有地雷?部長級以上的小孩有當兵嗎?第二個,有準備跟以色列一樣準備要上戰線嗎?第三個,最卑微的這段時間鬧得沸沸揚揚嘛總統說要40萬有韌性強韌的這個民兵是不是小孩至少去參加40萬民兵的訓練?"},{"start":13125.306,"end":13136.351,"text":"跟委員報告一直在講民兵他們不是民兵嘛他就民力不是民兵嘛您不要這樣子一直在那部長我呼籲至少部長級以上的小孩包括你的小孩去參加民力OK嗎"},{"start":13137.148,"end":13154.093,"text":"我想每一個人都有他應該應盡的義務嘛那這個就是你上次也一直在問說是這樣我覺得這個問題應該就是說他任何他任何應該應盡的義務都是應該盡的嘛就是這樣子嘛好不好好那我們做個簡單的總結部長"},{"start":13156.014,"end":13182.062,"text":"這不是在刁難你應該是你以前金管會主委你也把你任內的工作做得很好嘛國防部長也一樣啊那國防部長你現在碰到現實兩岸現在看起來是緊張的是不是所以我才問你說你怎麼樣去把士氣是提振的要凝聚的我今天從國內一個以前的案例從陳志忠跟你講到國際上以色列的請參考一下好不好當然我們做兩件事情第一個我們追求和平盡量避戰對不對"},{"start":13183.666,"end":13185.066,"text":"王宏文委員上台諮詢"},{"start":13219.482,"end":13246.259,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請顧部長還有今天我們政風室的代表好 部長好部長因為聯合利劍B剛剛舉行完畢馬上中共又在兩個地方實施實彈射擊"},{"start":13248.666,"end":13274.363,"text":"感覺在台海之間那個情勢有升高的情形我記得你剛剛當國防部長的時候我有問你我說邱國正部長前國防部長說他其實都睡不好覺那你說你的睡眠品質很好我想請問一下最近連續的這樣的一個情勢你的睡眠品質仍然很好嗎"},{"start":13276.071,"end":13297.652,"text":"我記得我沒有說我的睡眠品質好或不好我說我的睡眠品質跟平常是一樣大概就是這樣子我想你站在這個執行台上面問我睡眠的品質這件事情我並不知道如何回答我承認我也不知道如何回答所以你沒有辦法再回答是睡眠品質一樣囉"},{"start":13300,"end":13309.475,"text":"其實非常簡單我就是想問齊秋部長要傳達的就是在這樣的局勢上尤其國防部長他不可能睡得好的"},{"start":13311.189,"end":13331.159,"text":"當然可能部長想要四兩撥千金如同剛才張其凱委員講的就是現在很多的情勢使得大家感覺到比較緊張那另外我想請教當然因為你是律師出身啊你很會去閃躲這樣的問題其實當時你說睡眠痞子一樣其實很多外界都會覺得說"},{"start":13332.62,"end":13341.947,"text":"你真的睡眠品質一樣嗎?你真的覺得這一切都如常嗎?」我認為敵情當然是值得我們來警惕的現在中國的軍事武力不斷的擴張不斷的在進行這些相關的操演或演習有沒有對國防部長造成壓力?我想我們對於任何一個工作都要戰戰兢兢"},{"start":13358.322,"end":13385.017,"text":"感覺你現在比你剛剛出任國防部長的時候感覺沉重很多啦那另外就是最近我們的駐美代表余大雷他接受美國媒體訪問的時候他說台灣已經準備好打仗了傳回台灣之後呢引起了軒然大波所以我想請問一下部長您同意余大雷的說法嗎"},{"start":13386.348,"end":13395.339,"text":"我認為余大使所說的大概應該主要是重點在強調我們台灣應該要有足夠的自我防衛的能力跟決心"},{"start":13396.878,"end":13417.183,"text":"這一點是比較重要我認為他的講話的重點因為那天那個林佳龍部長有幫他在還原他說他是說如果遭到侵略的話台灣準備好打仗了但是無論如何作為一個駐美大使很多人講說台灣打仗的時候你駐美大使立刻飛回來跟我們一起打仗嗎所以您覺得"},{"start":13418.396,"end":13446.405,"text":"中美大使對於在美國媒體訪問的時候直接這樣的一個談話適合嗎?對於我們的國軍弟兄因為他們才是站在第一線的啊您覺得適合嗎?我還是剛剛的回答答案就是我認為余大使的真正的用意就是說我們台灣應該要持續的加強我們自我防衛的能力跟決心他只要的目的是在說明如果余大使是用您的話術的話"},{"start":13448.025,"end":13462.438,"text":"我覺得會比較好所以我必須講我們尤其駐美大使、駐外大使還是需要謹言慎行尤其我覺得國防部因為你現在肩負的是很多我們在第一線的我們的國軍弟兄我剛才為什麼請我們的鄭豐市今天是專門委員"},{"start":13470.302,"end":13490.15,"text":"部長請問一下這一次我們的一些情報人員的個資包含你自己在內的高階將官情報人員的個資外泄你們承認疏失請問一下有人下台嗎有人被懲處嗎我們會來檢討並且進行相關的懲處所以還沒有還沒有被懲處我們現在由法務部的聯政署來進行這個調查調查之後自然會來進行相關的所以有人會被懲處對不對"},{"start":13500.788,"end":13520.687,"text":"就這個疏失我想應該要檢討然後來進行究責當然要因為老師說我今天看到是我們的陳寶倫專門委員來我很嚇一跳但他們說主任在交通委員會因為交通委員會有排同樣的一場是我知道但是我覺得這件事情啊姿勢體大"},{"start":13522.796,"end":13542.67,"text":"因為我覺得我們的國防部雖然承認疏失但是第一時間說我們收回了我們會強化作業程序可是問題是今天有這麼多不應該被曝露的個資然後只是因為我們的作業疏失我們就會給就是各單位"},{"start":13543.692,"end":13561.831,"text":"所以外界會認為說這樣還打仗嗎還有什麼任性在那邊開這麼多什麼全民防衛任性然後花這麼多錢要訓練還不知道有多少錢給綠油有我直接說然後你們搞這樣的飛機有任性可言嗎部長發生在國防部欸"},{"start":13566.326,"end":13590.296,"text":"當然這個還是要跟委員報告因為這個還是循內部軍網的公文系統以電子發文發送給各層辦單位各層辦單位當然就公務上面看到這個相關的附件確實我們承認說沒有將這個一些機敏的人做隔離這是一個疏失但是當然他也應該不宜將他外洩所以當然不能外洩這種問題說實在"},{"start":13594.824,"end":13623.479,"text":"我知道大家都很辛苦但是這個問題一定要嚴懲尤其發生在國防部另外還有一些補破網的這個措施比如說因為有些情報人員是用化名對不對然後你們現在把人家的那個真實身份通通曝光因為你們尤其在軍中大概知道誰是誰所以另外一個就是單位會不會做一些輪調你們除了去檢討、去調查、去懲處之外接下來你還有什麼補破網的措施嗎"},{"start":13625.059,"end":13647.505,"text":"就我了解這些相關的這些應該要做財產申報的都是一定層級以上的人那他們都是用真實姓名來對外進行作業沒有來進行化名這樣子所以也不是第一線的工作人員所以那當然我們也要承認就是說我們有疏失那我們也做了風險的控管將這些公文進行銷毀進行這個從電腦上面全部的刪除那這個部分"},{"start":13654.583,"end":13676.318,"text":"還是要檢討相關的這個疏失來進行?好,我用一點點時間這個是我們就跟數發部所了解的你可以看到這個資料這個是最近這6年相關的資安事件這裡面有政府單位疏失的太多是由我們政府單位自己把資料外洩剛剛我講就是說國防部"},{"start":13677.119,"end":13700.295,"text":"我覺得是不能夠被容許的過去包含我們自己個人的就是一般民眾的護證資料都可以外泄那當然有些是被駭客攻擊你可以看到這6年來我們大大小小從中央到地方公營事業包含我們關鍵的基礎設施我們今天不是在討論韌性嗎我們這些關鍵基礎設施要怎麼樣去更要強化韌性"},{"start":13707.299,"end":13735.94,"text":"我們大大小小的這些資安事件高達5400多件高達5400多件其實這個問題是蠻嚴重的除了來自駭客的攻擊之外還有就是我們自己本身作業單位的疏失但是過去不管是很多政府單位有資料外洩老實說啦我們都沒有看到一個真正的懲處"},{"start":13737.526,"end":13761.422,"text":"所以就會一而再再而三每次發生的時候就說啊我們會立刻改進啊然後我們這些立刻收回啊什麼理由一大堆所以我覺得以這件事來講的話我覺得這次我就要看國防部要怎麼做處理剛才部長有回答說在檢討之後調查之後該懲處的就懲處好不好"},{"start":13762.256,"end":13791.476,"text":"是 我想我們今天這個事件是人案的問題那資安的問題當然就涉及到說中國不斷對我們進行網路的害侵就這個部分我們當然要加強我們資安的防護能力對 沒有錯 我這邊講的資安當然來自於外來的攻擊還有來自於我們自己本身內部作業疏失自己就把資料給外洩出去了這一點所以很重要好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝王宏文委員部長請回"},{"start":13793.509,"end":13800.591,"text":"然後接下來楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在然後接下來我們請洪森翰委員上台諮詢謝謝主席我先請數位部的主秘請數位部的主秘"},{"start":13827.338,"end":13831.32,"text":"在過去兩年的時間我們看到台馬之間海底的電纜被破壞的次數已經到了20多次這也引起國際軍事專家的關注甚至會認為這是屬於灰色地帶的侵略行為"},{"start":13850.305,"end":13875.253,"text":"那所以我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長我其實就很明確的表達台灣海洋照這個我們的CI的定義它應該完全的符合這個關鍵基礎設施的定義那應該要列入那今年5月的時候我也和國安局的蔡局長那包括國土辦來要求競速"},{"start":13876.277,"end":13889.57,"text":"要從行政院跟國安的角度來研議,是否要納入?」那我想請問一下主秘那大概又經過半年的時間目前數位部對於台馬海南列關鍵基礎設施目前有沒有進度?"},{"start":13893.043,"end":13908.241,"text":"跟委員回覆,也謝謝委員一直以來的關心有關台馬海欄123號設施是不是要列入關鍵基礎設施的部分我們在最近也把相關檢討報告送行政院"},{"start":13909.002,"end":13934.145,"text":"行政院也在9月23日已經合併台馬海嵐123號已經納入關機基礎設施所以我們後續會配合著行政院的合併去要求電信事業去做好相關的安全維護計畫的修正主秘 當然我很高興終於聽到台馬海嵐的列為CEI終於有進度了這部分我們當然給予肯定尤其是試射國家安全的問題"},{"start":13935.063,"end":13961.612,"text":"那當然接下來我們現在都知道六四議案中現在有幾個重要的工作包括定期評估風險的威脅然後也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效這些事情我們希望接下來在台馬海蘭的工作上面我們稅務部都可以把它給做好這部分應該是可以承諾的吧好我們會持續督導我們電信業者來做好這件事情好那接下來我想要請這個國安局、交通部跟經濟部"},{"start":13971.846,"end":13976.058,"text":"三個部會,三位在部裡面的長官"},{"start":13978.255,"end":14004.153,"text":"我其實一直以來關注不只是關鍵基礎設施那還包括了整個台灣其實在物資運輸上面那尤其是這方面上面的風險尤其台灣是個海島其實很多事情都要靠海運上個星期我其實有質詢了國安局的蔡局長那我提出這個問題說如果台灣運送貨物的貨櫃船這些商船、散裝船"},{"start":14005.598,"end":14029.272,"text":"如果他因為成本的考慮或管理的問題開始聘用大量的中國籍船員那當台海發生緊張狀況的時候你們覺得這些中國籍船員他會聽這些航商的還是聽中共政府的那天上禮拜"},{"start":14030.225,"end":14058.719,"text":"蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題"},{"start":14060.419,"end":14085.183,"text":"報告委員,這個部分我們有掌握,是有掌握齁那國籍航商旗下的這些國籍狀況具體來說中國與台灣船員實質的比例大概多少目前應該是這個比例可能精確數字可能回去還要再查證一下是不是事後再跟委員做回報那比例誰多誰少"},{"start":14086.438,"end":14109.735,"text":"這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料港港局有來嗎有我就是港港局對那為什麼港港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部"},{"start":14115.12,"end":14133.005,"text":"經濟部有沒有掌握你們國營事業的船運的團隊目前這個運輸團隊上面有多少中國籍船員因為你們這邊運送的很多鋼鐵、能源是由你們這邊國營事業的團隊喔你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":14135.822,"end":14161.893,"text":"中油台電的部分我手邊沒有資料因為中鋼最近因為有中運的勞工事件所以大概中鋼由中運獲得大概中國的船員的數目我不知道但是國籍的台灣籍的比例是超過八成我現在講的包括FOC船是確定包括SOF那個兩位司長我給你看幾個數據我們現在看這2012年的報告"},{"start":14165.503,"end":14166.204,"text":"臺灣的航商擁有的船隻86%是登記在其他國家"},{"start":14181.758,"end":14211.136,"text":"在當時這2012年的時候1000噸以上的外籍FOC船上面聘用了6200多位的中國籍船員佔比是63%只有1700多位的台灣籍船員佔比只有18%這個是來自學術單位的報告所以我也想問航港局副局長副局長這是12年前的數據你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高"},{"start":14212.694,"end":14214.229,"text":"中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高?」"},{"start":14215.579,"end":14243.015,"text":"外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點因為目前大概登記國籍我們國籍船大概100艘左右那以最近這個購船的比例有增加那中國籍船員有沒有提高這部分還是要跟委員抱歉我這個還要回去再找一下但是船部分我理解是有外籍船比例有增加所以看起來現在我們航港局對中國籍船員的狀況看起來是非常未知沒有掌握的我這樣講"},{"start":14244.216,"end":14269.603,"text":"應該算公允吧?應該不能這樣講因為我督導是船舶這一塊那船員是另外一副局長督導所以這部分我可能要回去查一下政策跟委員會部長我們今天在國防外交委員會我們談的當然是國安的問題嘛國安局其實也就說了這當然是個國安的問題嘛但我不知道為什麼你們被問到這個問題我說航空局被問到這個問題的時候所有事情都不知道"},{"start":14275.166,"end":14298.798,"text":"這個就是回去之後我是不是可以再把相關數據整理出來再跟委員做個複補好不好那個副局長我跟你說我們之前有來跟在跟航港局要這些相關的資料也就是我們的這個國籍的船商這個關於各個國籍的這個船員人數的資料之前航港局是不願意提供給我們的現在你可以承諾會提供了對不對"},{"start":14300.971,"end":14330.255,"text":"是 我們回去整理一下再提供給委員什麼時候可以提供一週內好不好一週內可以提供給我們辦公室是是好我一樣要問齁其實幾位我一樣在問同樣的問題你們覺得這些中國籍的船員當台海如果有發生緊張的時候他們會聽老共的還是聽我們台灣台灣的船商指揮副局長 你覺得"},{"start":14332.782,"end":14356.99,"text":"當然會聽老公的那個專部你覺得會聽誰的傳播的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有有所擔心的這個專部我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了"},{"start":14358.533,"end":14381.932,"text":"所以,讓我問,想跟你請教你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?抱歉,我剛有跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心的這個國安的風險但你們打算怎麼做?但你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊?"},{"start":14384.478,"end":14401.969,"text":"這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣"},{"start":14402.87,"end":14421.405,"text":"然後呢?不,船舶注射在台灣,那船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制常榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題"},{"start":14422.813,"end":14450.201,"text":"就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到港港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢"},{"start":14452.157,"end":14476.448,"text":"這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題"},{"start":14479.377,"end":14507.476,"text":"這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題"},{"start":14509.028,"end":14522.509,"text":"如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫"},{"start":14525.472,"end":14539.105,"text":"台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嘛我們要具體的對策嘛不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嘛包括經濟部"},{"start":14540.492,"end":14556.475,"text":"你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到"},{"start":14558.384,"end":14583.881,"text":"跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得如果在不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送"},{"start":14587.004,"end":14600.239,"text":"在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人"},{"start":14601.7,"end":14626.646,"text":"另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好"},{"start":14628.207,"end":14645.208,"text":"我沒有看到明確的行動我先可以再補充一下剛剛講到LNG國貨國運這個部分其實也是我們正在跟經濟部合作的一個專案主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有"},{"start":14647.01,"end":14671.412,"text":"就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中副長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完啦但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊"},{"start":14672.372,"end":14683.31,"text":"這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面,我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁"},{"start":14684.417,"end":14703.49,"text":"我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝謝謝洪森翰委員那也請航港局一週內把資料整理好給洪森翰委員的辦公室"},{"start":14718.911,"end":14723.212,"text":"鄭正前委員不在接下來我們請羅志強委員上台諮詢主席有請部長請顧部長部長好"},{"start":14744.352,"end":14766.972,"text":"日前我跟一位民進黨的名代電視上同台他告訴我、告訴大家說台灣海峽也就100多公里中共有沒有穿越海峽中線其實軍事戰術上的意義並不大有沒有海峽中線也不會對國安造成什麼衝擊我想請教部長你認同這段話嗎"},{"start":14769.117,"end":14792.06,"text":"我想我們有相關的應變區的一個規劃任何侵入海峽中線那麼試圖來進入我們的侵犯如果我們的臨界區或者領空、領海等等的我們都要利用我們的聯合情節所在加以綿密的掌控並且因應那你覺得海峽中線重不重要"},{"start":14793.384,"end":14807.178,"text":"我想他不斷的這個越過海峽中線就是破壞這個和平穩定的現狀對啊,那就重要啊,不是嗎?否則你幹嘛要很多的反制措施,要去監控措施呢?那他也講,國內媒體報導聯合力艦環台演習太過誇大"},{"start":14812.113,"end":14831.267,"text":"那過去中共多次對台演習軍艦圍台的情況更多這次派出海警船情況反而降低不是升高你覺得我們這次的聯合力艦B號中共這樣子來去圍台軍演你覺得對台灣來講是情況降低還是升高呢"},{"start":14832.729,"end":14856.866,"text":"他這個12艘的這個海警船我想他的目的就是在試圖將這個台海內水化那台灣問題內政化是進行一個法律戰對不只是法律戰啦當然也有認知戰、心理戰的作用包括軍事也是有他的軍事戰上的意義啦因為將來所謂的軍警聯合的情況就在做沙盤的富士推演嘛對我們來說就是一個安全的威脅沒錯吧"},{"start":14858.326,"end":14876.359,"text":"當然我剛剛講的就是操演跟實際要進行封鎖這個當然是有差異不過對這樣的操演我們要隨時要警惕沒錯就是要警惕所以去判斷他到底身高還是降低實質上當然部長你也還沒回答我的問題你認為是身高還是降低聯合力艦B"},{"start":14877.461,"end":14896.973,"text":"我認為中國日益這樣子的一些軍演來講是讓我們的敵情我之前也講過由訓轉戰這種可能性讓我們應處的時間縮短這件事情是值得我們警惕的所以其實從你的話語當中其實你也憂心嘛 對不對"},{"start":14899.474,"end":14917.756,"text":"那就是一個往上加深這個郵遲網章的方向是你敢講郵訊網站的方向所以我覺得這兩件事情為什麼要特別提出來因為民進黨朋友這個概念我覺得部長可能要好好的再宣導一下如果連執政黨的朋友都有這樣一個錯誤的"},{"start":14919.197,"end":14945.6,"text":"認知的話那我想其實對我們的國家安全防衛其實是非常不利的事情那我想請教其實這是為什麼跟大家講我聽了我是非常訝異因為為什麼如果海峽中線有這位民進黨的朋友講這麼不重要的話我不知道部長知不知道2015年大陸民航局規劃要設所謂貼近海峽中線的M503航線它有向西偏置的這個規劃"},{"start":14946.881,"end":14974.742,"text":"你知道當時的在野黨的反應是什麼嗎我只知道我們國防部每天都在監控這M503的航線我是講2015年啦那時候你還沒上任我還沒上任我並不清楚但是我們每天都在監控非常好我告訴你當時這個民航機它有規劃的向西偏置的規劃也還沒越過海峽中線當時的民進黨就說這是無能跟賣台"},{"start":14975.823,"end":15001.914,"text":"但後來政府有去協調讓他們擱置這項做法但等到民進黨上台又恢復所以因此我要特別講說這個事情其實沒有大家想像的這麼所謂的不重要那當然今天主題是如何因應解放軍透過灰色地帶戰術跟蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的一個國安危機那我再想請教一下華府的智庫戰略"},{"start":15003.734,"end":15028.579,"text":"與國際研究中心他近日報告指出中共可以利用海警船對台灣發動全面或局部隔離造成台灣港口無法進出能源等關鍵補給物資供應中斷這是介於戰爭與非戰爭之間的灰色地帶戰術會讓美國跟其他民主國家反制難度增加很多我想請教像這種蟒蛇戰略"},{"start":15030.66,"end":15040.101,"text":"緩慢跟穩定地在台海周邊來增兵介於戰爭跟非戰爭之間的灰色地帶戰術。」我不知道"},{"start":15041.614,"end":15062.962,"text":"前面我們的民進黨的朋友他還把這些做法說成是好像不重要那不是變成另外一種麻痹民心嗎?我們應該對這個很警惕吧?對不對?是,我剛剛跟前面其他委員報告就是說因為其他委員有提到封鎖的定義還有您剛剛提到這個是所謂的quarantine就是隔離的這種定義"},{"start":15064.282,"end":15088.809,"text":"這一個他們的海警船來試圖來進行對我們的船舶進行燈檢這些等等的行為來試圖在讓我們的就是說讓我們要主張的這個台灣主權的這個意涵被模糊然後他試圖用法律戰略方式來將台海的內水化的這種概念讓我們當然要警惕其實我覺得你剛剛強調認知的那個層面"},{"start":15092.91,"end":15119.809,"text":"好 那倒是一個面向可是我也看到五月底的時候聯合立見A的時候民進黨立委林黛華就說高雄永安液化天然氣接收站有三天沒進料顯量斷氣危機是因為外籍船長拒絕穿越軍演範圍進港卸貨這個情況到底現在是我想請教一下對我們的國防的狀況的威脅是什麼這個部分是不是請那個OK"},{"start":15123.486,"end":15140.557,"text":"跟委員報告這是剛委員講的那個事情大概我沒有經過查證啦事實上是沒有這個事情所以我們的立委的爆料是不確實當天還有一個有一艘LG船是順利的離港好沒關係我這樣講不管這個訊息如何那當然去跟委員辦公室說明一下"},{"start":15141.786,"end":15157.8,"text":"但是呢這種情況如果發生他在長期做所謂的軍演的時候會不會造成說今天外國的船舶確實會產生所謂的疑慮他不願意穿越軍演區而造成我們今天關於能源供應的一個威脅有沒有可能"},{"start":15158.615,"end":15188.135,"text":"跟委員報告,如果它真的畫設這樣子類似禁航區的這種概念而影響所有國際的船舶或者是飛機所以不管是空中海面我想沒有這個所有的國家不管是印太地區或全球其他的國家都會受到影響我也不認為他們會坐視不管這樣的一個事非常好,你是認為說其他國家不會坐視不管不是認為說今天中共不會採取這樣的行為嘛,對不對"},{"start":15189.776,"end":15212.415,"text":"我想中國採取這樣的行動的當下當然理性上來講他要判斷對他自己本身的傷害最後因為時間到我只是提醒一下整個沙盤推演的過程當中怎麼去來去準備今天這個灰色地帶跟所謂的蟒蛇戰略我們能源安全其實一直是台灣的命脈那這點希望國防部能夠特別的重視這一塊"},{"start":15213.163,"end":15232.016,"text":"是,我們權動署在作為一個MIS單位然後國安會作為一個決策跟行政院作為一個決策單位對這個部分的一個重視的程度就是我們在全民防衛任性裡面的一重要非常重要的一環所以這個也要請委員多多支持好,謝謝部長謝謝羅志強委員部長請回接下來我們請邱志偉委員上台質詢"},{"start":15250.07,"end":15278.5,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長不管是灰色地帶戰術或者是蟒蛇戰略基本上它是在執行一個戰略清晰中的戰術模糊蟒蛇什麼時候動 不知道還有怎麼動 不知道那灰色當然就是一個模糊"},{"start":15279.713,"end":15306.363,"text":"所以我是覺得這個不管是蟒蛇戰略或者是灰色地帶戰術它執行都是一個長期的過程長期每天都會然後逐步升高壓力然後用多種不同的這個戰術去執行那我要先請教這是一個長期的心理戰也是一個長期的戰備這個準備的一個過程變成一個常態化"},{"start":15311.206,"end":15323.423,"text":"蟒蛇最怕什麼部長蟒蛇最怕最怕什麼蟒蛇最怕什麼你要思考他出了一個蟒蛇戰略你要知道蟒蛇不怕什麼"},{"start":15329.584,"end":15340.872,"text":"你這個時候必須要讓我思考一下蟒蛇最怕什麼因為我對可能對國防的議題可以回答那你突然問我蟒蛇對於蟒蛇的這個戰略我們的應處當然就是說因為他"},{"start":15347.636,"end":15373.673,"text":"我認為不管國外或唐士林所發表的蟒蛇戰略就是說它藉由各種複合式的手段不斷地來進行這種軍事的動作或灰色地帶的洗腦然後呢這個針對性的這些軍演也好或者是這種常態性的戰備警訓或聯合戰備警訓也好規模也越來越大然後呢 頻率越來越高這樣子"},{"start":15375.04,"end":15402.514,"text":"所以對我們日常的戰備這個部分高強度而且是長期性的對於前線或者是每天都要這個幾乎都要備戰的狀況之下我們的這些海空兵力的這個相關的這些狀況要能夠掌握這是一個高強度而且是長期性的一個戰略對我們前線的海空軍是一個非常大的壓力"},{"start":15403.534,"end":15416.753,"text":"這個部分它最主要達到的目的就是讓我軍讓國軍打到一個筋疲力竭消耗你的日常準備戰力這個我們有沒有相關的因應的方式"},{"start":15418.268,"end":15446.336,"text":"我之前好像應該也回答過了就是說我們對於這種消耗戰當然是一個他很明顯是他的策略之一那我們針對這種消耗戰的這個作為當然還是非常具有挑戰性的但我們會多利用這個在空我們本來就每天都有在空機的訓練然後也有立定的這些戰鬥這個空中的巡邏然後任務艦也會出動所以我們那如果說"},{"start":15447.356,"end":15470.457,"text":"是威脅的狀況的話我們利用地面的這些防空的系統來進行追瞄這樣子盡量的來不要過度的消耗我們的這些作戰部隊的高強度壓力之下也要培養全民國防的戰鬥力讓全民防衛能夠深入每一個國民"},{"start":15471.536,"end":15496.139,"text":"了解說我們面臨到中國武力的所謂蟒蛇策略影響到我們國家安全那我們必須要團結所以全面防衛這部分也要多一點相關的作為另外就是說講到我選區的部分這個空軍"},{"start":15498.115,"end":15515.045,"text":"這個空氣管轄、鋼杉機場這個高頻率的所謂演練當然會對周遭的市民朋友、鄰近區域會造成噪音的這些影響對生活造成影響所以我也曾經"},{"start":15518.47,"end":15538.04,"text":"我已經去思考是怎麼樣去把這些對這些機場周遭的這些這個回饋金或者補償金能夠把這餅做大全國有那麼多機場那麼多的這個里每天的生活都受到這個飛機訓練起降的影響這部分是國防部哪一個單位來處理的"},{"start":15541.408,"end":15554.697,"text":"我們對於這個部分當然都有一些木鱗的一些經費對阿,我是說餅要做大然後這個機制能夠更公平有一些禮阿,它要等20年才輪一次阿"},{"start":15556.42,"end":15582.216,"text":"所以我想部長你要去了解一下這個整個對空軍機長周遭的木鱗的這些我覺得好像沒記錯一年編六億這部分不夠啦我希望能夠對這些生活受到空軍訓練的這些市民朋友能夠有更多的木鱗經費的補助鄭部長你去了解一下好不好"},{"start":15584.444,"end":15595.193,"text":"吳牧林的軍配,呃,詳細的數字我不清楚沒有這樣我知道六億多啦齁,但是我覺得這換寡也換不均啦,齁這部分我是提出這個議題,讓這個部長去了解一下齁"},{"start":15599.15,"end":15627.065,"text":"是,我們對於這些相關的應該要來跟地方政府來做跟地方政府無關啦,這個全部都是國防部編列預算對,預算是我們編列,但是要做怎麼樣的一個機制也是你們設定的,相關的牧林經費的發放也是你們制定我覺得這個換寡也換不均,這個請部長再去了解他有一些防治區的劃定,可能還是要協調一下這個制度還是出現問題的"},{"start":15628.506,"end":15637.252,"text":"那會後是不是再跟委員我請夜館的單位來跟委員多多請教好謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員部長請回接下來我們請洪孟凱委員上台質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":15667.018,"end":15685.267,"text":"本席有先看到有個媒體的新聞他是獨家他有講到是說我們現在外島的戰備純糧要從原本的這個乾糧的一個部分變成改用這個加熱餐盒是不是有這樣規劃有是有這樣的規劃我們是不是請後製室做一個來"},{"start":15687.98,"end":15706.845,"text":"各位委員報告一下我們在強化這整個韌性上面後勤韌性的確準備了除了乾糧之外的一些便利包或者是即食品可以方便這個官兵隨時可以使用其實現在官兵也有所謂的這個加熱式餐盒對只是現在列為的是救災物資而不是戰備物資"},{"start":15708.135,"end":15730.801,"text":"我們已經改列為戰備物資然後在下個年度會開始試行全面來做的話是在115年115年等於一年多後對這應該有預算的關係是我也很清楚這沒問題我想給官兵弟兄吃的比較好或者說比較及時加熱熱騰騰的食物嘛總不是說這個冷冰冰的乾涼口涼"},{"start":15731.841,"end":15753.095,"text":"但是有外界講是說他一個餐盒要240塊如果說我們比較大量的話是不是能夠壓低這個成本或甚至說我們是不是能夠有跟國內的廠商來去做研發合作還是怎麼樣是 其實我們這個加勒斯的餐盒跟美軍他的加勒斯餐盒幾乎是一樣我們要考慮到官兵在戰場上面他需要的熱量"},{"start":15754.136,"end":15780.453,"text":"保存、攜帶性、方便性還有一些特殊的狀況需要使用的話它的加熱速度要很快所以基本上它的價格應該是不會太低這是成本價好 了解沒問題 這給官編弟兄比較好的待遇我想這個是我們共同努力的目標來 再來部長 我想請教您今天上午也有證實是說在"},{"start":15781.912,"end":15789.454,"text":"中共他們上個禮拜的一個軍演的時候當天是有調動相關部隊的其中包括說關職部是不是"},{"start":15791.316,"end":15814.49,"text":"我想這個關子部的部因為我們沒有提升戰備成績那關子部的部份的話應該是由關子部的指揮官他基於這個淡水河防的一個介護的一個任務他認為有這樣的一個戰備需求所以他召回小部份的應該是只有25名的這個眷居地在附近的然後回來"},{"start":15815.31,"end":15838.833,"text":"然後做一個他認為一個加強戒備這個是他應該說指揮官比較積極認識的部分積極認識了那但是就整個國防部來講並沒有提高這個戰備等級因為當天國防部的記者會有媒體也詢問那當天的記者會是講是說並未下達任何的動員"},{"start":15840.094,"end":15862.256,"text":"但昨天有看到是說關子部因為本期選區就在淡水其實我們淡水的鄉親真的很配合我們國軍就是說要演習要有任何的動作的時候其實都是在淡水地區但是我們淡水地區的鄉親也認為是說我們軍民也一家可是如果說有什麼樣的一個動作什麼樣的情況下的話總是我們也希望"},{"start":15862.916,"end":15888.661,"text":"是國防部能夠告訴我們國人而不是說記者會講沒有那後來你才講是說有戰備需求因為今天早上的媒體的下標是顧立雄認了有戰備需求所以關子部10點召回官兵我是說是由關子部他自己做決定就這個部分的話我是事後去了解是由關子部的那關子部 抱歉喔 部長"},{"start":15889.993,"end":15895.184,"text":"觀止部做相關的一個動作沒有再往上呈報嗎?還是觀止部就可以來做決定了?"},{"start":15896.75,"end":15923.98,"text":"報告委員我是林三次長因為上個禮拜的這個中共的聯合力軍2024B他的一個威脅的態樣我們北中南東不見得是一致的那關子部他所負責的是包含的淡水河口甚至於他這個藉由河口他可以很快的突入到我們的中蘇地區所以關子部的指揮官他這個考量了敵情未來的發展他才會有這樣子的一個"},{"start":15924.56,"end":15944.355,"text":"官職或指揮官考量的敵情他的敵情是他有看到什麼還是他有掌握到什麼而做一下動作他的情報是從哪邊來當然第一個部分是從中共他所發布軍演的課程第二個是我們相關的一些情監偵的手段"},{"start":15944.815,"end":15970.226,"text":"相關單位嘛 是 是不是所以是相關單位告訴官職部官職部來做相關的命令但做相關的命令來做相關動作的時候他沒有往國防部回報嗎這個部分基本上我們沒有去要求他必須要向我們回報但是官職部的指揮官他也是他並不是把所有官職部的人全部召回他也只是做一些預應的措施只召了25位好 來 部長"},{"start":15974.465,"end":15998.733,"text":"部長本席再請教現在有媒體也有一些民調機構都有講到是說對於中共近期武力犯台國軍防衛台灣的能力有沒有信心這個是基金會做說45%的民眾對於國軍防衛台灣能力有信心但是50.3%是沒有信心部長你有看到這一個相關民調嗎"},{"start":16000.264,"end":16021.24,"text":"我有大略看一下這個相關的不過我想國軍的重要的一個戰略的目標是在拒止這個敵人達成任務也就是說我之前已經有講過了我們如果這個戰死的話我們就是主要的目的就是在讓中共能夠放棄奪台這個行動"},{"start":16023.121,"end":16046.47,"text":"我們會利用這個不對稱作戰的一個概念在它最脆弱的時候去讓拒止、遲滯或擾亂敵人達成這樣子登台的作戰目標這個是我們認為現在是我們的基本的一個戰略我們認為我們有信心應該可以來不斷地來削弱在它最脆弱的那一個時段不斷地削弱它的一個戰略"},{"start":16046.55,"end":16071.052,"text":"部長你認為我們現在有信心本席也希望對我們中華民國國軍都很有信心那但是另外一個部分那我們準備好打仗了嗎因為我們看到駐美代表他直接在接受媒體訪問的時候就講說台灣準備好打仗了我想請教一下外交系統跟國防系統他講這樣的話發言的時候有參考或是詢問國防系統的一個意見嗎"},{"start":16071.946,"end":16085.251,"text":"我想余大使主要的重點應該是要強化自我防衛的能力跟決心這樣子的一個意思那我們還是以這個為止兩岸的和平穩定的現狀我們沒有要求我們沒有要求戰如果說你強化自我防衛的意識跟決心我們百分之百贊成"},{"start":16096.235,"end":16120.852,"text":"但是為什麼會有一個駐美代表尤其是相關外交人員他尤其又是在美國對國際的媒體他反而會講出說台灣準備好作戰我還是認為部長怎麼現在感覺好像部長像外交官外交官像國防部長這以前我們有個戰狼外交部長現在我們有戰狼駐美代表這很奇怪啊"},{"start":16121.77,"end":16142.727,"text":"如果說真的有發生任何戰事全部都是我們的官兵弟兄要在第一線面臨戰事這都是我們的子弟那對於國防部長來講當然你有你的戰略考量但是對於國人來說我們希望的是安全我們也支持國軍捍衛中華民國捍衛2350萬人"},{"start":16146.872,"end":16160.642,"text":"可是我們有需要這樣子像駐美代表一樣然後講說準備好打仗嗎這樣的話是不是之前講出來沒有跟國防部討論過你是不是也不清楚他有接受這個專訪在他專訪之前我們備戰並不求戰"},{"start":16164.983,"end":16192.274,"text":"我們也不拒戰、不畏戰,但我們不求戰我們也希望能夠和平穩定發展,不是嗎?是,我們維持希望兩岸維持現狀這個是我們的目標謝謝部長,我想在外交國防委員會既然是外交國防委員會,一半是外交一半是國防我們台灣的處境不容易,我也理解但是捍衛中華民國的主權,我們都是共同一致的"},{"start":16193.001,"end":16196.102,"text":"陳婷妃、陳婷妃、陳婷妃委員不在鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在李坤喆、李坤喆、李坤喆委員不在蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在接下來我們請賴世保委員上台質詢"},{"start":16224.945,"end":16229.328,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長是 賴委員部長辛苦了齁前面委員問到我想我再要確定一下就是我們現在國軍用的戰備的參核這是不是確定了這個加熱的部分"},{"start":16253.694,"end":16280.695,"text":"是怎麼樣?最後確定是用什麼樣的版本?是40塊到50塊的簡易還是用240塊的六分兩數的?報告 簡單跟您報告一下三樣東西都有被變第一個是加熱式餐盒第二個是口糧第三個是我們的所謂的即食包也就是在一般便利商店我們可以看到的一個就是直接拆開的即食包請問你這個準備多少?這三樣各準備多少?"},{"start":16281.781,"end":16296.148,"text":"我可以私下跟委員報告因為這個準備的天數它是屬於比較機密的機密嗎是確定是機密不同不同這個我們農業部都講了我們的戰備儲糧準備6個月7個月什麼6個月委員分成兩部分農業部都講了你有什麼機密可以講我是覺得奇怪的這個農業部的準備有了經濟部會講了這個"},{"start":16307.97,"end":16324.352,"text":"委員我所謂的經濟的部分是指的是說它的個別的天數我可以跟委員報告全部來全部來維持30日以上冷凍食品都是在7日以上的冷凍食品7日然後30日那價格怎麼樣價格"},{"start":16326.204,"end":16340.291,"text":"價格的話就是加熱式的比較貴一點它就在240塊左右然後口糧的部分比較便宜口糧部分大概在90塊左右那剩下來的調理包的部分就跟一般市售的一樣大概在40、50塊左右"},{"start":16342.31,"end":16359.856,"text":"所以大家可以大概分得清楚了冷凍的7天其他的30天以上以上到哪裡不知道就這個意思對 詳細的因為牽扯到人數的問題所以跟委員私下再說明私下跟我說明來 部長我想請問你你今天對外講了說中國大陸中共如果封鎖台灣國際不會做事"},{"start":16371.864,"end":16392.151,"text":"請問它現在封鎖沒有?契金嗎?對,到現在為止如果按照國際法上的定義的話,它目前並沒有,因為封鎖是一個交戰的行動請問你那聯合力艦2020B算不算封鎖?算是一種操演,但沒有真的封鎖"},{"start":16392.955,"end":16416.294,"text":"超遠封鎖,但是接近封鎖,不等於封鎖,是不是?」是這樣的意思?他自己發布的就是一個JR嘛,他自己在超遠那他並沒有化射線和進航區,也沒有讓任何的載空機或者是載船來自由的進出我們的港口這兩天在平潭打飛彈是不是因應美加的軍艦經過我們這邊?"},{"start":16418.769,"end":16445.071,"text":"你說他在平坦啊對平坦前幾天我們的瞭解就是一個例行性的演練那但是他不像這個例行性的演練把他故意宣傳然後作為一個心理威懾的一部分這樣子算不算因應我剛說過了因為美加不是軍艦經過我們這裡嗎我們的理解是這個是一個他例行性訓練的項目之一但是他把他就是有點要擴大作為一個"},{"start":16447.623,"end":16470.745,"text":"製造對我們的一個心理威懾,算是在歷史以外從事一個認知戰嗎?應該是這樣子部長,你今天講的話,這裡面有很多的忌妒說如果封鎖台灣國際不會做事,你的言下之意是一封鎖我們一定要靠人家救,自己沒辦法自救,是這個意思嗎?不是"},{"start":16472.489,"end":16500.095,"text":"我們封鎖我剛剛已經講了如果是屬於國際法上的封鎖的話它是阻止所有國家基建進出我們管轄的港口、機場跟海岸線那這樣子的一個封鎖行為會被視為戰爭行為我們就會進入應急作戰階段我們所有的部隊我們的所有的武器裝備都會進入應急作戰階段應該有的部署位置我先問你一個很粗淺的一般老百姓很想知道的"},{"start":16501.4,"end":16510.573,"text":"現在大陸的步步進逼2024A再過來B慢慢一直把台灣越拉越緊的情況之下"},{"start":16511.974,"end":16519.357,"text":"我們看到我們的因應除了你們在這裡講說都免驚啦都免驚啦講得好像感覺相關的單位我們的國軍只剩下打嘴砲而已啦或者是我們沒有說我們不用那個我一再的講我們要警惕這樣子的一個不是不是好好好我要強調是說怎麼會說他一直進逼然後我們嘴巴講而已沒辦法讓他不要進逼或者把他讓他退回去"},{"start":16542.066,"end":16545.129,"text":"就是說A到B又往台灣進了我想辦法讓他退到A甚至於退得更前面"},{"start":16549.575,"end":16572.895,"text":"這是中國的一種威權擴張中國在挑釁啊你還想辦法啊 你要讓人家知道我們國防預算一直增加我們不升高衝突 我們在克制我們只是向氣球維持現狀那中國不認為維持現狀是他可以接受的啊那這個問題是出在於中國不接受現狀的維持啊"},{"start":16574.268,"end":16589.839,"text":"我們不應該接受他一直往我們這裡面圍難道國防部不是這樣子嗎?不是這種態度嗎?所以我們就要用聯合情形戰爭的手段來綿密的監控他相關的所有的作為我們要掌控他的所有的一舉一動不管是航空的監控不夠啦你要想辦法讓他不進來嘛那我們有應處啊"},{"start":16592.361,"end":16616.904,"text":"只是說我沒有看到應處,什麼應處呢?至少想辦法不要讓他看我們要捍衛我們的領海、領空、領土這個部分就是我們的現在應處這個灰色地帶洗腦我們最必要的一個部分那我們就是要應對應對這樣子的請問你比有沒有比A更靠近台灣?有沒有?"},{"start":16617.691,"end":16642.564,"text":"他都沒有進入二次海裡對但是有靠近一點啊那不是沒有沒有進入二次海裡我們看圖都有那圖這樣畫問題是他沒有這樣的作為啊那他圖也沒有精緯度他自己就畫了圖然後看起來跨過二次海裡可是問題是他的操演一天結束在這一天當中他就沒有進入到我們的二次海裡不管是這個在空中的或是海面的啊"},{"start":16642.884,"end":16666.453,"text":"所以你的意思是以後不管中國大陸中共他怎麼樣的演習我們都不要理他大家都不用怕是不是這個意思不是我從來沒有講過不是你從來沒有講過我們是這樣所以不用理他怎麼可以不用理他呢我們要戒慎恐懼面對這樣子的一個敵情的日趨嚴峻威脅的一個狀況請問老百姓要做什麼心理解釋"},{"start":16669.676,"end":16690.673,"text":"我覺得老百姓當然我們在推動全民防衛任性的目的就是在讓這個全民應該要有一個在團結之下要建立這樣的一個心防居然能夠思維你上次講了說40萬的民力不等於民兵可是你那個叫戰手冊裡面TEC、TCC"},{"start":16693.806,"end":16710.173,"text":"就講到說最好的防禦就是把對方殺死那這個很好啊那這個不就是全民皆兵了嗎我想這個提起應該是消防署是吧是哪一個消防署吧那這個應該是不是由消防署來來回答這個提起"},{"start":16718.802,"end":16743.513,"text":"那個戰術手冊是我們因應不同的時間不同地點採取的不同救護方式你上面寫的說最好的防禦方式就是把對方殺死那不就全民皆兵了那個是在測驗的一個翻譯的那個題目就是那個訓練後的測驗的翻譯的題目翻譯喔對所以就講白了嘛就通通是美國叫我們做的嘛是不是就這個意思啦是不是"},{"start":16747.68,"end":16762.593,"text":"沒有這是給舊戶同仁另外一個思考就是在不同的時間採取不同的因應作為好啦最後一個我時間到了不想拖太久了部長我請問你現在有沒有比520更緊張了台海的局勢有沒有我認為中國一直是採取這樣子的一種對我們"},{"start":16772.748,"end":16799.873,"text":"在周遭進行這樣子一個演訓的相關的作為那這些相關的作為他不會因為任何在任何的情況之下他會找任何的理由或任何的藉口然後來持續的來進行這樣的一個挑釁的作為那我們國人當然都要團結那國軍得要借勝一對川普這個最近的民調不錯看起來有機會說不定選贏了說不定的不知道"},{"start":16801.701,"end":16805.362,"text":"但是他5月份的時候講了一句話說中共如果入侵台灣要轟炸北京結果現在救了他現在說要制裁他要關稅扣150%到200%到底的做法就是跟對烏克蘭一樣啊制裁這個俄羅斯然後也不幫俄國人打仗要給武器對台灣是幾乎完全一樣啊你怎麼看川普這樣講法"},{"start":16831.653,"end":16855.22,"text":"我想美國迄今為止我只能夠說美國迄今為止仍然維持一個戰略模糊的政策這個戰略模糊的一個政策意思就是說你不能夠排除他可能出兵你也不可能排除他不出兵也就是他維持一個戰略模糊的一個然後藉此來進行一個嚇阻那我想這是迄今為止美國政府的一個態度"},{"start":16855.657,"end":16859.402,"text":"他的美國都戰略模糊了我們的外交官還戰略這麼清楚那請問我們要不要戰略模糊"},{"start":16863.888,"end":16886.221,"text":"我們是守勢的一方,我們要的就是說如何拒止這個中國可能的一個全面侵犯然後讓一旦發生這個全面侵犯,我們讓它全面侵犯能夠失敗我們要很具體吧,我們戰略不能模糊,我們要戰略清楚你懂不懂我講的,不能讓它愈來愈雷齒,一步就是這樣"},{"start":16887.813,"end":16902.993,"text":"我們的戰術戰略要很清楚啊對在平時我們應付灰色地帶的洗澡就是要捍衛我們的領土領空領海那如果說有那在暫時的話就是讓他的這個清台的行動失敗這是我們非常清楚的一個戰略"},{"start":16904.255,"end":16924.516,"text":"所以我們是戰略清楚美國是戰略模糊是這個樣子嗎我該不該這樣講因為我們沒有要採取這個之前已經講我們沒有要反攻大陸我們就是守勢作戰的一方只有他我們要隨時戒備他任何可能對我們的作為我們的"},{"start":16927.859,"end":16933.502,"text":"很清楚的就是我們希望能夠維持現狀時間到了我最後一句話你今天各大媒體講的那一句話其實外界的解讀是國防部長顧立雄說如果被封鎖國際不會做事言下之意就是我們沒有人力突破他的封鎖就這個意思我不是這個意思不是喔就這樣就不用國際的我們自己都可以突破還要國際"},{"start":16957.172,"end":16957.433,"text":"阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾"},{"start":16965.765,"end":16989.512,"text":"他封鎖請問你他封鎖我們有沒有能力突破封鎖我們有沒有能力我們要我們要應用我們所有的這個防衛的力量來確保我們這個國土的安全你現在連講你真沒信心你應該很大聲的講我們絕對有人力突破封鎖再等到外面的來更好這樣是不是這種答案不是更漂亮"},{"start":16992.798,"end":17009.746,"text":"我已經講過了沒有講我沒有聽清楚封鎖這個階段就已經進入了我們應急作戰的階段我們就要準備好應對這樣子的一個交戰的作法沒有回答問題憑著中華民國的國軍能不能突破封鎖問你這句話啦可不可以啦"},{"start":17010.646,"end":17027.75,"text":"我們能夠做這個相關的因應的一個作為然後讓他的這個封鎖的這個行動會不成功那我們這就是我們應該要做的事情那就是解讀說可以突破封鎖那你快點啊 簡單人家拿得比較好你說你對人家痛苦可以突破封鎖那你拿得比較好 可以嗎我們會來救他的這個不敢說 那奇怪的 你這麼沒信心我已經在做事給你了 不敢接 你看"},{"start":17041.07,"end":17044.733,"text":"我個人認為要封鎖沒有那麼簡單我沒有能力來保衛我們的國土然後來進行這個反封鎖相關的作為這不等於突破封鎖"},{"start":17060.444,"end":17068.553,"text":"這等於突破封鎖啦對不起我能不能請教一下委員認為什麼叫做突破封鎖他把你封鎖就把你封起來突破就是要出去啊這治理行業就這麼簡單的事情這個沒什麼大的學問啊這需要什麼學問那我們有相關的反封鎖的這個規劃跟作為剛剛這裡也沒有辦法沒有規劃啦 有人力就好了啦"},{"start":17083.388,"end":17086.749,"text":"我想我們也應該要有具備這樣的一個反封鎖的能力"},{"start":17102.703,"end":17122.571,"text":"吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在高金素梅 高金素梅 高金素梅委員不在張家俊 張家俊 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我說它是作為什麼使用的 這個本來是做什麼的原料"},{"start":443.121,"end":446.103,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為"},{"start":469.642,"end":473.804,"text":"製毒原料假冒原料要進口,或者是藥品的原料進口?跟你有關吧?那問你合成卡系統?合成卡系統?"},{"start":489.38,"end":502.223,"text":"跟你有沒有相關?你們食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計卡西銅類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅高檢署也發佈新聞稿97年到113年2月我國共檢出193種的新興毒品其中59種為合成卡西銅類而這個裡面喵喵你知道嗎?署長你點頭知道你喵喵是什麼?"},{"start":517.513,"end":524.321,"text":"他是108年以後占新興毒品檢出件數的第一名而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件平均年齡幾歲你知道嗎?"},{"start":540.065,"end":557.003,"text":"30歲,然後其中檢出了新興毒品成分排序,喵喵從110年開始期,她就是第一名,吃多吃到死的喵喵是第一名。另外值得關注的是Alpha PIHP成為第三級毒品,也是合成卡系統。"},{"start":558.865,"end":580.242,"text":"然後都是煙草俗稱彩虹煙啦彩虹煙用什麼名義偷渡進口你知道嗎進口啦不要講偷渡啦合法進來都用什麼名義進來你知道嗎原料很多卡西銅類法務委員這個我不清楚我要再去查他們用茶葉茶葉申報入境是不是跟你有相關茶葉煙草茶葉好"},{"start":587.594,"end":602.276,"text":"我們現在講說這種東西一直彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關"},{"start":603.737,"end":622.628,"text":"報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後卻濫用流向不明去作毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥"},{"start":623.608,"end":640.435,"text":"現在有篩檢到跟現在大量做成毒品混在毒品當中是兩件事我在問你的是不是你邊境管理跟你有關那除非你告訴我走私的居多合法進口的居少你有沒有辦法證明這樣子嗎"},{"start":643.77,"end":664.379,"text":"所以我是要告訴你新興毒品的問題跟你除了這個煙毒的鑑識鑑驗以外你從上游你就有很多責任更不要講到下游還有國建署的責任保證都是你管的你管很多不是只有法務部要去理你而已"},{"start":666.738,"end":669.703,"text":"昨天的聯合報也披露警方從7月到9月同一期間7、8、9、3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍啊衛福部的啊"},{"start":682.802,"end":691.925,"text":"數字我們要看衛福部對非法新興煙品的怠惰和失職這個在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了刑事局統計警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油一共1415件送驗含大麻案件佔了52.6含喵喵的有27.9上司煙彈是一托米子的有6.1"},{"start":710.712,"end":732.498,"text":"含安非他命的是0.6這個都是混合兩種以上的毒品保定你有觀察到說這個新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎第一個成分變化快速第二適用年齡降低第三混合使用的比例逐漸升高那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎你們一年查緝幾件主動去查"},{"start":739.094,"end":745.318,"text":"我們電子煙的查緝在去年查緝的是30萬件今年查緝的是23萬件是查緝你們查貨"},{"start":755.902,"end":780.249,"text":"對,總計兩年,從去年3月22號到今年9月30號好,我這裡看到資料來,電子菸茶器50萬件,僅處罰1247件一年前9月,地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件那這個平均一天不到兩件甚至2月只有4件7到9月的暑假有294件所以這個人家認為說,這個連"},{"start":784.531,"end":811.085,"text":"連這個法務部．連警方查的都比你們多啊當然我知道不好查啊但你們有沒有重點有沒有在查啊有跟委員報告我們跟地方這邊會跟縣市衛生局這邊來共同溝通怎麼加強這個查緝的力道跟採儲的加速你們查緝的量跟查貨的查到不法的量跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大"},{"start":813.246,"end":816.207,"text":"你們怎麼查?30萬件你們查?50萬件怎麼查?我們這個查緝的狀況你們怎麼查?47萬件是實體的是直接實體查緝的你有辦法查到47萬件怎麼查的?47萬次對啦47萬次你資料送來我有點懷疑你一個行政部門中央地方加起來有辦法去查47萬件嗎?"},{"start":837.871,"end":838.051,"text":"就是說這個"},{"start":866.092,"end":872.46,"text":"部長或署長新興煙毒品的查緝工作說明你們在擬定的落差裡面有什麼困難?擬定的這個策略跟執行面的落差你們到底遇到什麼困難?你有要報告嗎?"},{"start":884.529,"end":896.964,"text":"報言這個好我先講一下先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部我知道啦毒品不是啦我當然知道但是呢我在問你們部長啊你可以叫你部長回答"},{"start":899.031,"end":904.696,"text":"等一下就跟署長相關的我想政府部門是不然我看你不要說你也說不出來我直接跟你說啦我直接講2023年的台灣藥物濫用學會他有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防治其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包茶氣困境的研究"},{"start":920.31,"end":933.16,"text":"她深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗而且邀請了新興毒品混合包、相關查緝、檢驗、藥理等5位專家"},{"start":937.183,"end":959.154,"text":"辦理了焦點團體訪談以瞭解新興毒品的混合包、查緝困境的整體情境脈絡瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰然後提出了具體建議人家是這樣子然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考請問一下來石巷署署長有跟你們相關的嗎?有跟你們相關的嗎?人家訂出來在那裡你們看了嗎?"},{"start":966.55,"end":993.994,"text":"報告委員．我沒有看到那有沒有其他人看到．沒有．好我．連這種都無動於衷來 我直接跟你報告好了人家做出來 檢驗能量 檢驗能量是不是跟你有關 食藥署那個剛剛那個毒品的檢驗不是我們 我們是對認證實驗室是由我．比如說報告檢驗方法是不是你們檢驗方法檢驗方法是不是你們要 檢驗標準是不是你們"},{"start":995.322,"end":999.047,"text":"對嘛 你沒有鑑驗方法你沒有標準程序訂定他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊所以你是最上游的欸你鑑驗 鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境因為"},{"start":1010.282,"end":1019.528,"text":"新鮮毒品混合包的特色第一個為了逃避法規經常會變化混合包成分的化學式造成檢驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出而且檢驗機器的新舊檢驗標準品的取得與否檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得"},{"start":1028.933,"end":1057.32,"text":"誰要負責給?連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分檢驗的結果,檢驗的能量能否即使趕上新興毒品變化的速度,攸關整體新興毒品混合包、茶器跟主角毒品的犯罪成效。現在來了,成分變化迅速,相關你的法令、你的檢驗方法、你的標準,你定得出來敢得上這種變化嗎?你可以嗎?"},{"start":1059.278,"end":1086.131,"text":"報告委員我們現在大概已知的標準品現在食藥署通通都有準備而且應該青菜公共欸人家這一個這一個要濫用學會的指出了你們成分變化迅速相關法令管制不足三個月召開一次毒品審議委員會然後查緝到了疑似的新興毒品但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質所以"},{"start":1086.851,"end":1106.322,"text":"連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪而且受驗與檢驗能量及法令你的檢驗標準它變化成分就會不一樣所以這個法規化學是一直不斷的變化連起訴都沒有辦法也沒有辦法說它是一個劣管毒品"},{"start":1107.162,"end":1129.992,"text":"然後呢我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊所以你對新興毒品的辨識、知能及工具不足然後出塞的柿子啊這個有很多的限制很多偽陽性、偽陰性那你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足也不夠當然這個拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置"},{"start":1130.692,"end":1149.034,"text":"但是呢新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力辨識能力不足第二個你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足然後這個要透過系統化的培訓要更專業然後第三個經費"},{"start":1150.396,"end":1159.22,"text":"那建驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的新興毒品的多樣性變異性使得建驗標準品難以取得再來新興毒品的資料庫的建制困境"},{"start":1167.063,"end":1186.309,"text":"先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足會導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物所以在這個圖影響資料庫當中的資料的完整性鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考還有質譜技術的運用而你在這個裡面"},{"start":1188.05,"end":1189.351,"text":"對於這個原物料上游的管控都是你們有關,並不是沒有"},{"start":1216.903,"end":1226.406,"text":"謝謝委員的指教,我想我們一定這樣結束很簡單,時間夠,雖然是這樣時間夠,但是你說這樣你都很簡單,做補充跟做輸出太簡單了你這樣子都太簡單了啦你的輸出要注意啦,什麼都搞不清楚了你這個是口號是自理的不嗎?口號是自理嗎?"},{"start":1246.459,"end":1246.579,"text":"林淑芬議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":939,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時20分）主席、各位、大家午安。是不是請我們邱部長上台備詢？"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，最近一次的行政院的毒品防制會報，你剛才也承認說你沒有出席，那天是次長代理出席。最近一次是6月17日，那下一次你會出席嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：只要行程不衝突的話，我會以這個為最優先。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我們今天講說，當天6月17日的那一次報告，主責機關是食藥署，那我再問一下署長，署長，你對於毒品鑑驗的業務，應該已經熟悉上手了吧？你知道你是毒品鑑驗的業務主責機關嗎？你知道嗎？你自己不知道喔？還要看旁邊喔？你知不知道你是負責鑑驗的主責機關？你現在還要看旁邊。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：鑑驗的業務不是你負責的嗎？鑑驗的業務不是你負責的嗎？不是喔？你不知道，不清楚，無法回答？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，那個是我們在新世代反毒策略綱領下面的……"],["林委員淑芬：那我問你，你到底是不是主責的？就是你要去負責。你知道6月17日你們的行政院毒品防制會報的主要報告機關是由當時食藥署署長吳秀梅負責，主題是驗毒策略，驗毒的主責就是他，就是你，你不知道喔？天啊！天啊！難怪會「2266」。署長，你從上任到現在，你在9月初還安排了專訪，談來談去都是談5月的缺藥，都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題，然後提到食安的議題，就說：「這是我自己的弱項，我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題。」然後關於食安事件，你的同仁的表現，包括寶林茶室事件，是人家醫院通報的，然後關於蘇丹紅事件，當初地方政府通報到中央來，你們也是無動於衷的。你認為這是你自己的弱項，所以交給你同仁，你同仁是這個樣子，那食藥署最大的問題，就是抓不到鬼，然後預算經費卻花最多，花很多在食安預警上面，但是沒有預警的功能，失去預警的功能，然後發生食安事件的時候，你們往往都是慢半拍的。在這個專訪裡面，你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源，你要去幫臺灣的藥品開發廠商、學界，利用這些資源打世界盃。顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品、藥商、藥廠，但我們看到你這一篇專訪，上任兩個月以後，還只能談發生過的事情，根本沒有談到未來願景，也沒有談到制度上的調整。你在7月1日號上任的時候，你在臉書上說你要扛起責任，你要扛起責任，帶領食藥署大破大立，聚焦在制度的建立，不要讓食藥署的危機「頭過身就過」，然後得過且過，沒有檢討和建立因應制度，面對下一次的危機，依然束手無策，讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿，可是我們是這樣期許你，希望你好好地用心在你食藥署的業務上，而今天討論新興毒品的防制這個問題，看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚。你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣，你們署內的同仁，那些尸位素餐的組長沒有改革，沒有換人，然後還是同過去一樣就算了，署內有一股風氣，說你只是來食藥署過水，等明年1月你滿65歲，你就要退休，因此署內士氣低落。我現在再問你，剩下3個月，明年1月你就要退休嗎？然後你不要像回答媒體講的，說操之不在我，這是什麼態度啊！我們是要讓你來這裡過水，過一個好的位置然後退休的嗎？署長，你回答啊。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個我要……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你知道他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落，而且是這樣子解讀的，你知道嗎？你有責任喔！部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我絕對肯定莊署長自就任以後……"],["林委員淑芬：我不需要你肯定，現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休，他會扛起責任。他言之鑿鑿，你可以保證嗎？如果他1月退休，我們怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天。"],["林委員淑芬：如果這種「散形」、「散形」的人奉獻到最後一天也很慘。"],["邱部長泰源：不會啦。我覺得他在部內，所有的同仁都認為他很快就掌握狀況。"],["林委員淑芬：所有同仁都認為他要等退休。"],["邱部長泰源：他以一個藥學院的院長……"],["林委員淑芬：我告訴你，我今天的重點不在那裡啦。我問一下新興毒品好了。"],["邱部長泰源：藥學院的院長，他是可以繼續做下去，所以他到公務機關，其實是為國家……"],["林委員淑芬：來啦，我現在問你新興毒品，你不要在這裡幫他擦脂抹粉，我頭一次看到部長在幫署長擦脂抹粉，通常都是署長幫部長擦脂抹粉的。我現在不談這個啦，談新興毒品啦。大家都知道，尤其是行政院毒品防制會報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長報告，根據法醫研究所的統計，去年α-PiHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻、依托咪酯，都混合在香菸當中使用，法務部檢察司司長也有提到，所以高檢署去年11月在緝毒督導小組會報成立毒品先驅原料預警平台，由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質，不是毒品本身而已喔，而是毒品先驅原料的物質，提到該平台中進行預警，有效列管依托咪酯、美托咪酯、異丙帕酯等毒品。司長，我要問你，依托咪酯、美托咪酯、異丙帕酯等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的？是什麼東西的原料？"],["郭司長永發：可能都是卡西酮的原料，如果有這個來做為毒品的先驅原料的話，我們都會列為四級……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在問你這個啦。我說它是做為什麼使用的，這個本來是做什麼的原料？卡西酮、依託咪酯。"],["郭司長永發：只有一些是工業原料，也有的是醫療的。"],["林委員淑芬：那醫療就跟食藥署有關喔。吳秀梅在行政院會報裡面就有講啦！我沒有帶圖來，沒關係，署長，你知道什麼東西的列管是你的責任，署內的責任嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，這個是有醫療用途，或者是有證實是有科學上用途的，就屬於我們……"],["林委員淑芬：製毒原料假冒原料藥或藥品的原料進口，跟你有關吧？那我問你，合成卡西酮跟你有沒有相關？你們食藥署的濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計，卡西酮類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅，高檢署也有發布新聞稿，97年到113年2月，我國共檢出193種新興毒品，其中59種為合成卡西酮類，而這裡面的喵喵，你知道嗎？署長，你點頭。表示你知道喵喵是什麼。"],["莊署長聲宏：我知道這個喵喵是毒品，是卡西酮類，結構我還要回去確認。"],["林委員淑芬：它是108年以後新興毒品檢出件數的第一名，而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件中，死者平均年齡幾歲，你知道嗎？30歲，然後其中檢出的新興毒品成分排序，從110年開始，喵喵就是第一名。吸毒死掉的人數中，用喵喵的是第一名。另外值得關注的是，α-PiHP成為第三級毒品，也是合成卡西酮，然後都是製成菸草，俗稱彩虹菸，彩虹菸用什麼名義進口，你知道嗎？都用什麼名義合法進來，你知道嗎？原料，很多，卡西酮類。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，這個我不清楚，我再去查。"],["林委員淑芬：他們用茶葉的名義申報入境，是不是跟你有相關？我們現在講說這種東西，依托咪酯被大家知道的是當短暫麻醉劑，如果不是偷渡走私的話，那是不是也是跟你們管理有關？從上游的管理原料，跟你是不是都有關？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，依托咪酯事實上是一個很老的……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你是不是你管的啦。假裝成藥物的原料，然後進口，然後卻濫用，流向不明去做毒，是不是跟你有關？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥。"],["林委員淑芬：現在有篩檢到，跟現在大量做成毒品、混在毒品當中是兩件事，我在問你的邊境管理是不是跟你有關。"],["莊署長聲宏：有。"],["林委員淑芬：那除非你告訴我走私的居多，合法進口的居少，你有辦法證明這樣子嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：所以我是要告訴你，新興毒品的問題，除了驗毒的鑑識、鑑驗以外，從上游你就有很多責任，更不要講到下游還有國健署的責任。部長，都是你管的，你管很多，不是只有法務部要去抓而已。昨天的聯合報也披露，警方從7月到9月同一期間，在7、8、9這3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈相關違法案件681件，是衛福部的2.3倍啊。我們來看衛福部對非法新興菸品的怠惰和失職，在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了，根據刑事局統計，警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油，一共1,415件，送驗含大麻案件占了52.6%，含喵喵的有27.9%，喪屍煙彈含依托咪酯的，有6.1%，含安非他命的是0.6%，都是混合兩種以上的毒品。部長，你有觀察到新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎？第一個，成分變化快速。第二，施用年齡降低。第三，混合使用的比例逐漸升高，那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎？你們一年查緝幾件？主動去查的有幾件？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們電子煙的查緝，在去年查緝的時候，是30萬件，今年查緝的是23萬件。"],["林委員淑芬：你們查獲？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對。總計兩年，從去年3月22日到今年9月30日……"],["林委員淑芬：好，我這裡看到資料，電子煙查緝50萬件，僅處罰1,247件，今年前9月地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件，平均一天不到兩件，甚至2月只有4件，7到9月的暑假有294件，所以人家認為連警方查的都比你們多。當然我知道不好查，但是重點是你們有沒有在查。"],["賈副署長淑麗：有，跟委員報告，我們在地方會跟縣市衛生局來共同溝通，看怎麼加強查緝的力道跟裁處的加速……"],["林委員淑芬：你們查緝的量跟查到不法的量，跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大？你們怎麼查？30萬件你們怎麼查？50萬件你們怎麼查？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們查緝的狀況……"],["林委員淑芬：你們怎麼查？"],["賈副署長淑麗：47萬件是實體的，就是直接實體查緝的。"],["林委員淑芬：你有辦法查到47萬件，怎麼查的？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是47萬次。"],["林委員淑芬：對，是47萬次。你資料送來，我很懷疑，你一個行政部門，中央和地方加起來，有辦法去查47萬件嗎？47萬次是什麼意思？"],["賈副署長淑麗：比如說，我們今天去查緝的時候，有電子煙跟加熱菸的時候，我們會併查。"],["林委員淑芬：你所有的詳細資料拿來，我是懷疑。現在我在講，食藥署的驗毒重點策略跟新興毒品混合包的查緝，實務上的確有一些落差。抱歉，我知道我講太久，我儘快好不好？部長、署長，新興毒品的查緝工作，說明你們在擬訂的策略跟執行面的落差，你們到底遇到什麼困難，你有辦法報告嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我先講一下，先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦，毒品不是啦，我當然知道，但是我在問你們部長，你可以叫你部長回答，等一下就跟署長相關的……"],["邱部長泰源：我想政府部門是一體的……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我看你也不要說了，你也說不出來，我直接告訴你，我直接講，2023年臺灣藥物濫用學會有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防制，其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包查緝困境的研究，深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員，以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗，而且邀請了新興毒品混合包相關查緝、鑑驗、藥理等5位專家，辦理了焦點團體訪談，以瞭解新興毒品混合包查緝困境的整體情境脈絡，瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰，然後提出了具體建議。人家是這樣子，然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考。請問一下，食藥署署長，有跟你們相關的嗎？有跟你們相關的嗎？人家訂出來在那裡，你們看了嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：委員，我沒有看到過。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那有沒有其他人看到？沒有。連這樣都無動於衷。我直接跟你報告好了，人家做出來，鑑驗能量是不是跟你有關？食藥署。"],["莊署長聲宏：毒品的鑑驗不是我們，認證實驗室是由我們……"],["林委員淑芬：你胡說八道！檢驗方法是不是你們？檢驗方法、鑑驗方法是不是你們？鑑驗標準是不是你們？"],["莊署長聲宏：委員，是。因為剛剛……"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛！你沒有鑑驗方法啊！你沒有標準程序訂定，他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊？所以你是最上游的，鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境，因為新興毒品的混合包的特色，第一個，為了逃避法規，經常會變化混合包成分的化學式，造成鑑驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出，而且鑑驗機器的新舊、檢驗標準品的取得與否也有影響。檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得？是誰要負責給？"],["莊署長聲宏：我們要負責。"],["林委員淑芬：連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分鑑驗的結果，鑑驗的能量能否及時趕上新興毒品變化的速度，攸關整體新興毒品混合包查緝跟阻絕毒品犯罪的成效，成分變化迅速，你的法令、你的鑑驗方法、你的標準，你訂得出來，趕得上這種變化嗎？你可以嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，現在已知的標準品，現在食藥署統統都有準備，而且應該是……"],["林委員淑芬：你隨便說說，藥物濫用學會指出了你們的困境，包含成分變化迅速、相關法令管制不足，3個月召開一次毒品審議委員會，然後查緝到了疑似新興毒品，但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質，所以連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪，而且受限於檢驗能量及法令，你的鑑驗標準，它變化成分，結果就會不一樣，因為這個法規，所以化學式一直不斷地變化，連起訴都沒有辦法，也沒有辦法說它是一個列管毒品，然後我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊。所以你對新興毒品的辨識知能及工具不足，然後初篩的試紙有很多的限制，很多偽陽性、偽陰性，然後你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足，也不夠，當然拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置，但是新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速，所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力，辨識能力不足。第二個，你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足，這個要透過系統化的培訓，要更專業。第三個是經費，鑑驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的，新興毒品的多樣性、變異性，使得鑑驗標準品難以取得。再來，新興毒品資料庫的建置困境，先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足，導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物，影響資料庫中資料的完整性。鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考，還有質譜技術的運用，而你在這個部分趕不上犯罪的集團。署長，照你們這樣下去，部長，照你們這樣下去，跟你們食藥署有關的擴增拉曼光譜儀、強化邊境快篩、續購先驅物、建置新興毒品質譜圖庫資訊、監控民間檢驗機構的能力、對於原物料上游的管控，都是你們有關，並不是沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員的指教。我想我們一定努力來做……"],["林委員淑芬：這樣結束很簡單，時間到了，雖然是這樣，時間到了，但是你說這樣，你們都很簡單，當部長和當署長太簡單了。"],["主席：部長，你去辦公室跟他報告啦，專題報告啦。"],["邱部長泰源：針對委員剛剛指教的……"],["林委員淑芬：你這樣子都太簡單了啦。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會全力以赴。"],["林委員淑芬：你們的署長要注意啦，什麼都搞不清楚了。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會提升我們的力量來打擊不法。"],["林委員淑芬：你用口號治你的部嗎？是口號式治理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：一定努力！一定努力！"],["林委員淑芬：說這幾句話就可以當部長，我也會！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會全力以赴，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，部長辛苦了。","我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有2案，很快，請一併宣讀。（參閱附錄）","一、","案由：吸毒者因無法正常控制情緒或行為，可能忽視或虐待子女。生活不穩定的吸毒父母容易給孩子帶來安全感缺失，甚至陷入暴力或性虐待的環境。當父母經濟遇到問題，生活、情緒壓力大，虐待就容易發生。","請衛福部在一周內，提交家長施用毒品與發生兒虐的相關統計數據及防治作為之書面報告給立法院社會福利及衛環委員會。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　王育敏　　","二、","案由：衛福部預告「菸品禁止使用之添加物」草案，將禁止4種口味，改為禁止27種添加物，社會各界認為讓漏洞更大，衛福部也在媒體表示，逐步擴大加味菸禁止項目是全球趨勢，然做法與美國、歐盟是否相同？國健署與歐美國家進行多次會議，法案預告期至113年10月7日止，關於國健署開過幾次會議？有關的會議記錄在哪？","爰提案，針對上述疑問，請國健署在一周內，將本次預告的決策理由、選擇這27項添加物的依據是什麼？以及政策影響評估有哪些層面？提交書面報告給立法院社會福利及衛環委員會。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　陳菁徽"],["主席：請問第1案，行政單位有無意見？"],["邱部長泰源：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好。第2案有沒有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有意見，遵照辦理。"],["主席：臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來我們請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d636bbd063770846efe5d49a24f4c608aef0be32bc181a6f4a199ca43a5534ac6bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"14:01:08 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收到的稅捐趕快補齊，這個就是今天本席主要的訴求，公開透明這件事情，我們還是希望部長辦公室那邊可以在一個禮拜內好好跟我們報告這個事情，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，大家辛苦了！委員盧縣一所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","一、立法院113年7月16日做成主決議：在不修改《全民健康保險法》前提下，於114年6月30日前行政院須達成健保平均點值1點0.95元目標，以維護醫事人員權益，估算需要額外增加700億元預算。請問未來衛福部如何編足該項預算？","二、政府目標2030年降低癌症死亡率三分之一，因此政府預計成立百億「癌症基金」，明年先挹注50億元跨出第一步，據傳目前正在研擬專款作業要點訂出草案，其中是否有部分預算將研議用於提升原住民族健康醫療？","三、衛福部是否已推動提升原鄉衛生所設置急診室計畫？例如：先前發生之台東縣金峰鄉農藥托福松中毒案，如果基層衛生所具備急診設備及人力，就不會因距離而延宕就醫。","四、《原住民族健康法》雖已三讀立法通過，但因為衛福部之專責單位「護理及健康照護司」層級過低，是否能研議成立「原住民健康署」，專責原住民族健康照護？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（14時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6318550104c55d7c1efbc85fd0f5e73d770be32bc181a6f4a10f8b18e26c9fd1175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:29:34 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陳偉部長好 部長最近的重大的國安案件就如王定委有提到這個國防部的個資外流事件那這一次的範圍有多少人受到影響您說沒聽到"},{"start":27.266,"end":54.508,"text":"這次的各資外洩案件有多少人受到影響?」跟委員報告齁他這個部分是這樣子就是說他還是以內部軍網的方式以電子公文的方式發送給這個28個單位所以他還是在內部的這個各成辦單位那所揭露的是那一個他的服務單位職稱跟姓名這樣子這個資料而已沒有其他任何的資料就是"},{"start":56.71,"end":64.656,"text":"單位職稱跟姓名,還是在內部的各程班人員。中國時報知道這個訊息,但是我並不確定他有沒有拿到這樣子的相關的這些文件。"},{"start":71.681,"end":91.83,"text":"我們沒有辦法確定所以接下來要請部長那跟法務部那共同來去確定說是我們在第一時間要做好風險控管就是將那個電子公文已經全數刪除再來就是說第一時間做這個控管大概是從反應到開始控管大概有多少的時間就隔天隔天嘛24小時之後對"},{"start":92.85,"end":113.75,"text":"那我希望說未來這個機制就是等到24小時之後該下載的下載完該把這些手記錄的用手把它記錄下來筆記記錄的大概也都記完了所以我們是希望說這一次就把它當作是經驗反應時間必須要加快第二部分我們會檢討這個相關的數字法務部聯政署的政風室的人員那這個承辦人員的機密層級是什麼機密 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還是知道有這些人還是知道有這些人他們做什麼事情"},{"start":211.184,"end":235.854,"text":"那這個可能是接下來這一兩個月可能要聯合法務部一起來去做檢討好不好?跟委員報告第一個當然是法務部聯政署會做一個行政調查第二個當然就是說因為相關的這個還是在內網的範圍之內那第三個當然就是說它所出去的這個部分是包括單位名稱、職稱跟姓名那有些部分並不是機密比如說像我"},{"start":236.454,"end":238.336,"text":"國防部、國防部長、國防部長、國防部長"},{"start":258.755,"end":278.724,"text":"灰色地帶的侵擾我們這次也提到封鎖跟隔離那上一次我們是針對封鎖的部分花比較多的時間這次想針對隔離的部分那部長也知道說現在隔離的處置就不是軍事上用軍艦或者是直接用軍隊來去做這個全面性的封鎖那所以說他可能他"},{"start":280.195,"end":296.979,"text":"中國可以用去棄毒、去查走私、做公衛檢疫、搜尋逃犯等於是用這樣的方式還是可以達成接近封鎖的做法目前我看我們現在根據這個CSIS的資料把這個相關的中國的"},{"start":301.42,"end":327.531,"text":"海警的盾位和船艦的數量來做比較的話我們台灣的海巡基本上是遠遠的不足但是另一方面我們也必須思考說他必須在守衛的是他們整個非常大的海岸線那我們台灣只要守衛台灣就好那我專為一嘛所以我們的資源可以做更有效的運用現在的這樣子的海巡的能量"},{"start":328.795,"end":343.545,"text":"國防部有沒有可能提供退役的盾位的船艦以及聯繫友好的國家來去取得其他國家的相關的這種海巡的這種不是軍艦但是能夠直巡海巡的船艦"},{"start":346.124,"end":359.984,"text":"我覺得海巡跟其他國家的合作並不是由我來回答而且這個部分也不是以公開來過於討論我當然是有些理解可能這個是要由海巡來回答但"},{"start":361.566,"end":389.284,"text":"我個人會覺得可能也不是以來公開來做說明中國的海警他是基本上從他們的國防部接收大量的退役他們的軍艦來擴充他們現在新造的艦也很多對 那我的意思是說如果中國可以大量的利用他們退役的軍艦的話我們國防部有沒有可能因為我們現在必須第一時間要因應的就是灰色地帶有沒有相關可以跟海巡把這些相關退役船艦來移交給海巡的可能性"},{"start":390.796,"end":411.006,"text":"他跟委員報告,我們自己現在都要來應付灰色地帶,我們要進行清洗循環界的造鑑所以我們應處灰色地帶,確實中國一個對我們非常大的挑戰是在對我們進行一些消耗戰這個是無可否認的一個事實,所以我們要是適切的來應處"},{"start":411.806,"end":427.388,"text":"那對於這種灰色地帶洗澡我們要跟海巡來共同協處那海巡當然現在有相當的一個燒素的一個新建的建造的計畫正在執行當中就會不斷的會有比較大型的軍艦"},{"start":428.65,"end":442.148,"text":"有幾位委員提到空中的能量所以我們海巡這邊沒有定義機這樣子去協助那有沒有可能考慮與民間合作用租借的方式來去暫時把這個空中的力量做彌補"},{"start":443.716,"end":458.749,"text":"我想我們應該海軍會來協助海巡做這個相關的見證的這個活動那我們也會來發展這個相關的這些以無人機的方式來做這個空中的見證的這個作為"},{"start":460.964,"end":476.612,"text":"好 謝謝那如果在另外的部分全動數它是在11年1月它成立那11年2月開始檢討醫療的量能那在今年我們在看到5月的時候全台的輸液藥物大缺貨"},{"start":477.532,"end":491.921,"text":"不知道這個部分國防部的這個全動數有沒有整合相關的資源來了解到有這樣的狀況之前有先檢測到有可能會有這樣子的情勢發生嗎因為現在是在成平時期喔"},{"start":492.776,"end":514.427,"text":"那根據這個衛福部他把最新的這個資料給我們他說9月的時候食藥署說10月底前還是沒有辦法恢復生產比如說我們全動數也好或者是說我之前也是在質詢這個退福會的時候我們都說有定期來去確保說我們的醫療量能那基本上都是足夠的可是現在在成名時期"},{"start":515.427,"end":541.707,"text":"都有這樣的問題是不是可以請衛福部來簡單的回應一下跟國防部之間的資訊是怎麼樣整合的好 謝謝委員先跟委員報告就是說其實跟國防部這邊我們之前有一些相關的國家必要戰備藥材還有一些必要藥材的部分事實上是有一些囤儲那也很抱歉就是說在生理食品水這個部分因為其實過去生理食品水是一個很普遍而且有非常多家廠商在生產的一個產品"},{"start":542.748,"end":562.249,"text":"所以這個部分過去並沒有被列在Essential Drugs必要藥品在聯合國也沒有但是這次的狀況比較特別是說因為永豐它是戰事戰七成的一個廠商所以當它因為品管的部分沒有辦法通過我們後續的核定的時候那出現了七成的產品沒有辦法供應所以才會出現市面上的短缺的問題"},{"start":563.35,"end":584.998,"text":"這個部分衛福部這邊也謝謝大家能夠同意讓我們用專案進口的方式先用國外的產品先來致應那國內我們有很多家廠商他原來佔三成那些廠商他們也幫我們加工加班那做了因應的部分那目前我們持續的輔導這家廠商那廠商這邊已經在大包裝的沖洗液都已經可以完成已經標準了"},{"start":585.998,"end":611.115,"text":"所以它已經開始在供應了大包裝沖洗液的部分那在典基的部分就打進身體的部分當然我們的標準還是比較嚴格一點所以說在進入身體的這個所謂注射液的部分我們目前最快的進度在11月底可以去確認它的這個包含它的這些相關的品管那11月底如果能夠確認品管的話我們應該可以在12月開始這一家原來供應七成的廠商可以供應謝謝次長您這個"},{"start":614.037,"end":641.58,"text":"解釋得非常完善我簡單跟部長講一下就是說我們現在做的每件事情做國防的準備在經濟上面都是沒有效益的經濟上面沒有效益是在過去我們的這個工業社會來講我們要全力追求效益最大化但是我們現在做的事情不應該追求效益最大化因為我們要面臨的是可能會遇到的衝突可能會遇到的封鎖可能會遇到的隔離所以我們必須要事先先思考說這可能對我們的經濟效益是"},{"start":642.381,"end":670.62,"text":"沒有幫助的因為任何的囤積本身就是經濟效益是不會滿足的所以這個是這個mindset我們要先準備好所以如果說我們要花這麼多心力要到10月、12月的時候才可以把它完成的滿足我們現在的需求的話那所以說整個整備的過程是更加困難的所以我今天講的這個全動數我不是在攻擊全動數我覺得這是要還好我們兩年前就開始在做這些準備的所以我們現在才可以站在這個質詢台來質詢說我們現在部署的地方"},{"start":672.581,"end":685.232,"text":"那未來的兩年三年會隨著每一次的質詢每一次我們的精進我們才會有足夠的能量去量能去做調配嗎那接下來請那個農業部請副市長"},{"start":698.922,"end":717.813,"text":"副長根據美國交通大學聖利亞格分校最新資訊糧食供需年報他說台灣的糧食自給率現在是30.3%創下18年新低我想請教因為飲食的需求是改變的所以說包括雜糧的自給率也是在降低"},{"start":718.833,"end":729.164,"text":"現在除了倒座四選三、雜糧二轉等政策,農業部有沒有辦法適度把倒座面積轉為雜糧面積,讓我們的自給率更加平衡,就是說不是只有夠,而且還要多元?"},{"start":730.779,"end":749.668,"text":"好那這邊回復委員那其實在農業部其實也在進行一級二轉3加3的部分其中在二轉事實上就是就我們現行雜糧比較不足的部分去做所謂的雜糧面積的一個擴展那把原本倒做的部分本來可能比較不是在這方面生產我們轉做雜糧部分來擴展這個面積"},{"start":752.009,"end":772.21,"text":"對,那這個地方要請教因為平時黃豆、小麥、玉米的進口跟庫存是經濟部負責那米的部分是由農業部所以剛才我們詢問幾個聯絡國會的人提供給我們的資料那遇到這個緊急狀態整體的糧食物資調備是由經濟部、農業部還是權動署來去做分配工作的協調"},{"start":774.012,"end":789.283,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們農業部就整個我們的庫存會定期的一個盤點那整個相關的一個剛剛就我們的一個供應的部分我們來負責那至於相關的一個配售整體的部分我們當然經濟部做民生物資的一個整個調配好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時29分）麻煩請國防部部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。有關最近重大的國安案件，即王定宇委員有提到的國防部個資外洩事件，這一次的範圍有多少人受到影響？"],["顧部長立雄：您說？沒聽到。"],["陳委員冠廷：這一次的個資外洩案件，有多少人受到影響？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分是在內部軍網以電子公文的方式發送給28個單位，所以還是在內部的各承辦單位，所揭露的是服務單位、職稱跟姓名這樣的資料而已，沒有其他任何的資料。就是單位、職稱跟姓名，還是在內部的各承辦人員。"],["陳委員冠廷：在內部的個案，但是中國時報有獨家掌握？那就不是內部了！"],["顧部長立雄：中國時報知道這個訊息，但是我並不確定，他有沒有拿到相關文件。"],["陳委員冠廷：你們沒有辦法確定，所以接下來要請部長跟法務部共同確定，到底洩漏的範圍……"],["顧部長立雄：我們在第一時間要做好風險控管，已經將那個電子公文全數刪除了。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來就是第一時間控管，從反應到開始控管大概有多少的時間？"],["顧部長立雄：就隔天。"],["陳委員冠廷：隔天、24小時之後？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：我希望未來的機制就是等到24小時之後，該下載的下載完，該用手把它記錄下來、用筆記錄的大概也都記完了，所以我們希望就把這一次當作是經驗，反應時間必須要加快。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們會檢討相關疏失。"],["陳委員冠廷：第二個部分，承辦人員是法務部廉政署政風室的人員，這個承辦人員的揭密層級是什麼？機密、絕對機密？"],["顧部長立雄：您說這個政風室揭密的人？"],["陳委員冠廷：對，這個承辦人員的揭密層級是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：因為這些相關的資料在政風室有一定的揭密層級，至於實際的揭密層級，我們回去再檢討一下。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我還是希望回去檢討一下，如果他能夠碰觸到的……據媒體報導，是直接從部長、參謀總長到上校階級的將官，他的揭密層級必須要非常高。他如果只是政風室的承辦，到底是由法務部來定義他的揭密層級，還是國防部？我想這個以後要有完整的系統來規範，不然他如果是承辦人員，接觸到的密等是最高機密，因為是在法務部的政風室，過去可能依照他的位階，給他安排的密等是機密，等於這就不符合這樣的機制。針對這個部分，我希望能夠調整。揭密層級已經講很久了，從2016年到現在，這個要確保一下。這個不是小的案件，資安不是只有科技的技術而已，人因的因素還是很重要的。因為這次的範圍，部長也不方便透露到底有多少人受到影響，但如果範圍很大，那我們很難去追蹤到他們接收到資料之後，除了媒體知道有這件事，還是知道有這些人，還是知道有這些人他們做什麼事情，這個可能是接下來這一、兩個月要聯合法務部一起來去做檢討。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個當然是法務部廉政署會來做一個行政調查；第二個，因為相關的部分還是在內網的範圍之內；第三個，他所出去的這個部分是包括單位名稱、職稱，跟姓名，有些部分並不是機敏，比如說像我的話，大家都知道我是國防部、部長、顧立雄，就只有這三個問題，但是確實有一些機敏人員的身分，剛剛委員的指導是對的，我們要來……"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我們跟中國最大不同就是因為我們有問責的機制，所以有遇到問題，我們就只是把它解決而已。"],["顧部長立雄：是、是，我們會來檢討。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。第二個部分，關於灰色地帶的侵擾，我們這次也提到封鎖跟隔離，上一次我們是針對封鎖的部分花比較多的時間，這次想針對隔離的部分。部長也知道說，現在隔離的處置就不是軍事上面用軍艦或者是直接用軍隊來去做全面性的封鎖，所以可能變成中國可以用比如他是去緝毒、他是去查走私、他是做公衛的檢疫、他是在搜尋逃犯，等於是用這樣的方式，還是可以達成接近封鎖的作法。目前我看，我們現在根據CSIS的資料，把相關的中國海警的噸位、船艦的數量來做比較的話，我們臺灣的海巡基本上是遠遠的不足，但是另一方面，我們也必須思考，他必須守衛的是他們整個非常大的海岸線，我們臺灣只要守衛臺灣就好，我專為一，所以我們的資源可以做更有效的運用。現在這樣子的海巡能量，國防部有沒有可能提供退役噸位的船艦，以及聯繫友好的國家來去取得其他國家的相關這種海巡的、不是軍艦，但是能夠執行海巡的船艦？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得海巡跟其他國家的合作並不是由我來回答，而且這個部分也不適宜公開來過於討論，我當然是有些理解，可能這個是要由海巡來回答，但我個人會覺得可能也不適宜公開來做說明，但是我們……"],["陳委員冠廷：中國的海警基本上是從他們的國防部接收大量的退役軍艦來擴充他們的海警。"],["顧部長立雄：他們現在新造的艦也很多。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我的意思是說，如果中國可以大量的利用他們退役軍艦的話，我們國防部有沒有可能？因為我們現在必須在第一時間要因應的就是灰色地帶，有沒有跟海巡把這些相關退役船艦來移交給海巡的可能性？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們自己現在都要來應付灰色地帶，我們要進行輕型巡防艦的造艦，所以對於應處灰色地帶，確實中國對我們有非常大的挑戰，是在於對我們進行一些消耗戰，這個是無可否認的一個事實，所以我們要適切的來應處，對於這種灰色地帶的襲擾，我們要跟海巡來共同協處，當然海巡現在有相當艘數的新艦建造計畫正在執行當中，就不斷會有比較大型的海巡艦。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才有幾位委員提到空中能量，說我們海巡這邊沒有定翼機去協助，有沒有可能考慮與民間合作，用租借的方式去暫時把這個空中能量做彌補？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們海軍應該會來協助海巡做相關監偵的活動，我們也會來發展相關以無人機的方式來做這個空中的監偵作為。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。另外的部分，全動署是在111年1月成立，111年2月開始檢討醫療的量能，在今年5月的時候我們看到全臺的輸液藥物大缺貨，不知道這個部分，國防部全動署有沒有整合相關資源來了解到有這樣的狀況？之前有先檢測到有可能會有這樣子的情勢發生嗎？因為現在是在承平時期。","根據衛福部把最新的資料給我們，它說9月的時候，食藥署說最10月底前還是沒有辦法恢復生產，也就是說我們全動署也好，或者我之前也是在質詢退輔會的時候，都說有定期來確保我們的醫療量能基本上都是足夠的，可是現在在承平時期都有這樣子的問題，是不是可以請衛福部來簡單回應一下，跟國防部之間的資訊是怎麼樣整合的？"],["林次長靜儀：好，謝謝委員。先跟委員報告，其實跟國防部這邊，我們之前有一些相關的國家必要戰備藥材，還有一些必要藥材的部分事實上有一些囤儲，那也很抱歉，就是說在生理食鹽水這個部分，因為其實過去生理食鹽水是一個很普遍而且有非常多家廠商在生產的產品，所以這個部分過去並沒有被列在essential drugs，就是必要藥品，在聯合國也沒有，但是這次狀況比較特別是說，因為永豐是市占七成的一個廠商，所以當它因為品管的部分沒有辦法通過我們後續核定的時候，出現了七成的產品沒有辦法供應，所以才會出現市面上短缺的問題。","這個部分，衛福部這邊也謝謝大家能夠同意讓我們用專案進口的方式，先用國外的產品來支應，國內我們有很多家廠商，即原來占三成的那些廠商，他們也幫我們加工加班，做了因應的部分，目前我們持續輔導這家廠商，廠商這邊的大包裝沖洗液都已經可以完成且已經達到標準了，所以它已經開始在供應了，就是大包裝沖洗液的部分。在點滴的部分，就是打進身體的部分，當然我們的標準還是比較嚴格一點。所以說在進入身體所謂注射液的部分，我們目前最快的進度在11月底可以去確認，包含這些相關的品管，11月底如果能夠確認品管的話，我們應該可以在12月開始，這一家原來供應七成的廠商可以供應。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝次長，您解釋得非常完善，我簡單跟部長講一下，我們現在做的每一件事情、做國防的準備，在經濟上面都是沒有效益的，在過去我們的工業社會來講，我們要全力追求效益最大化，但是我們現在做的事情不應該追求效益最大化，因為我們要面臨的是可能會遇到的衝突、可能會遇到的封鎖、可能會遇到的隔離，所以我們必須要事先先思考到，這可能對我們的經濟效益是沒有幫助的，因為任何的囤積本身的經濟效益是不會滿足的，所以這個mindset，我們要先準備好，如果說我們要花這麼多心力，要到10月、12月的時候才可以完整滿足我們現在的需求的話，所以說整個整備的過程是更加困難的。","我今天講到全動署，我不是在攻擊全動署，我覺得還好我們兩年前就開始在做這些準備，所以我們現在才可以站在這個質詢臺來質詢我們現在不足的地方，未來的兩年、三年會隨著每一次的質詢、每一次我們的精進，我們才會有足夠的量能去做調配。","接下來請農業部副司長。"],["黃副司長新達：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：副司長好。根據美國加州大學聖地牙哥分校糧食供需年報最新的資訊，它說臺灣的糧食自給率現在是30.3%，創下18年新低，我想請教，因為飲食的需求是改變的，所以包括雜糧的自給率也是在降低，現在除了稻作4選3、雜糧2轉等政策，農業部有沒有辦法適度把稻作面積轉為雜糧面積，讓我們的自給率更加平衡？就是說不是只有夠，而且還要多元。"],["黃副司長新達：好，這邊回復委員。農業部其實也在進行「1級、2轉、3加3」的部分，其中在2轉事實上就是就我們現行雜糧比較不足的部分去做所謂的雜糧面積的擴展，把原本稻作的部分，本來可能比較不是在這方面的生產，我們轉做為雜糧來擴展面積。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，這個地方要請教，因為平時黃豆、小麥、玉米的進口跟庫存是經濟部負責，米的部分是由農業部，剛才我們詢問幾個國會聯絡人提供給我們的資料，遇到緊急狀態，整體的糧食物資調配是由經濟部、農業部還是全動署來去做分配工作的協調？"],["黃副司長新達：跟委員報告，其實農業部就整個我們的庫存會定期盤點，剛剛提到整個供應的部分是我們來負責，至於相關配售整體的部分，當然經濟部做的是民生物資的整個調配。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","等一下徐巧芯委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"156029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63030c3cf16a794a36ea3bc5a9eeba56a80be32bc181a6f4a1b62c4ba8584081235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:25:19 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Plus可能更低HBO Max現在還沒有上所以說還不知道但部長現在我就要跟你來討論怎麼樣能夠push我們這些串流平台通路"},{"start":362.179,"end":362.48,"text":"我非常謝謝委員問這個問題因為"},{"start":374.537,"end":399.279,"text":"的確我們的台灣的那個串流平台如果控制在國外的這個手上的話我們台灣的巨真的出不去那現在我們如果我爭取到這個下一個100億其實我就是想做這件事我想跟台灣先解決三大那個電信業者我們來合組基金其中有一個中華電信我們已經談了快一年"},{"start":400.2,"end":426.728,"text":"最近接近快要完成了那他是第一個我們跟中華電信成立大概30億的這個基金由他們來操盤目的就是我們說服台灣三大電信業者原來不覺得投資文化內容是有意義的因為他本身的收入用文化內容來講他可能還是賠錢的但是我們說服他們說文化內容如果做出來成功的話"},{"start":427.108,"end":443.712,"text":"﹗"},{"start":443.812,"end":459.352,"text":"不要認為是說我們自己內部的本土平台即便做了也都是買外國的戲劇來播放那這樣子就會變什麼就很像是我們過去看這個有線電視也是一樣到最後都是買國外的這影片來播放是一樣的道理嗎"},{"start":459.993,"end":474.487,"text":"但是另外一個部分現行我覺得你分兩個層面部長因為這是比較龐大的議題但是我一定要把我們立場講清楚另外一個部分現行串流平台上面我們能夠怎麼樣來協助幫忙把他們有更多誘因讓他們能夠多"},{"start":476.169,"end":489.996,"text":"不管是購買也好 不管是多吸納也好 因為其實串流平台對他們來講 他們放上那個空間沒有問題啊甚至有沒有可能跟串流平台談 能夠先把這些好的影星作品放上 然後之後靠點閱還是靠什麼來做這個回收"},{"start":493.197,"end":511.438,"text":"我覺得這都是可能文化部可以來去做媒合跟串接的讓多一點台劇台影能夠上串流平台讓全世界能看到部長有沒有辦法好其實我們過去沒有去補助平台這個項目我沒有說要補助平台我現在講的是說怎麼樣跟平台來溝通讓"},{"start":514.625,"end":539.503,"text":"美和或者是有一個什麼樣的誘因其實我們有雙管齊下就是第一個我們必須要把我們的台劇那個品質要提高到別人接受至少跟日韓可以競爭第二個我們要擁有平台那平台我們上架以後我們如果去推廣他這部分是我心裡最著急所以為什麼我一上任之後我就去找國發會的主委拜託一定要給我"},{"start":541.324,"end":559.004,"text":"部長這個部分我們之後再討論但是對於影視行業好的作品跟好的通路都要一起兼顧來第三個部分黑神話悟空這一個電動國安體系有講說這個是對岸對台灣的文化統戰"},{"start":560.509,"end":588.382,"text":"我想已經講到你的專業的文化統戰那我們講說只要有人好像網路上也講說有人質疑這個就是中共同路人部長贊成國安會這樣子的一個評估嗎國安單位評估嗎OK你問的也非常好其實我不太清楚國安會的完整描述那對我來講黑悟空跟中華文化是因為中華文化才使得黑悟空大賣嗎黑神話悟空啦神話悟空我真的不懂因為我也沒看你也沒玩但是你用那個"},{"start":589.622,"end":612.912,"text":"神話悟空這個東西就叫中華文化嗎?那我們也有動畫叫八戒啊我們對中華文化這個第一是有點模糊的所以你不認同這個是文化統戰我覺得交流跟那個統戰還有就是會不會很多因為我們現在台灣的玩家可以在我們的平台上面可以玩到可以買到了那會不會你會擔心說很多台灣的玩家去玩黑神話悟空被統戰"},{"start":614.11,"end":628.939,"text":"拜託看內容阿 有的時候他玩得很好玩 裡面如果百姓思想 我覺得文化裡面最可怕的是思想因為台灣是民主制度 我們反而開放的讓大家進來部長您到底知不知道黑神話悟空在玩什麼或是我不知道阿"},{"start":630.64,"end":656.395,"text":"那你跟我講一下 那這樣比較不好討論啦不過沒關係 因為部長我覺得這個就是一樣嘛就是說你是個文化人我想要問的是國安單位說這是文化統戰結果我們自己文化部完全沒有警覺或是沒有去思考說欸有人文化統戰了我們要不要去了解研究有有有警覺啊結果沒有想到部長到現在誇誇其詞但是一問三不知不知道內容是什麼那不過部長我再請教上個禮拜金鐘獎頒獎典禮"},{"start":659.377,"end":661.198,"text":"他希望能夠有下一個宏願,部長知道是什麼嗎?"},{"start":680.694,"end":681.974,"text":"他說金鐘獎希望能夠納入華語節目讓金鐘更大更久"},{"start":697.699,"end":698.179,"text":"我先請教你認同吳宗憲主持人這一段話嗎?"},{"start":717.455,"end":729.225,"text":"所以我們可以怎麼做我先問你認不認同納入全部華語節目這一句話我們再來討論執行面你現在要先講執行面那我們就很難討論下去了我為什麼要在金馬獎一定要開放華語呢我們當年金馬獎就是開放華語之後又很長一段時間我們金馬獎是被香港跟華語佔領台灣電影幾乎沒有空間後來是靠我們2008年海角七號起來之後比較爭氣一點點"},{"start":745.299,"end":771.357,"text":"那後來中國大陸的電影自己要撤退以後我們自己很爭氣啊所以重點第一是京中如果我們很爭氣開放是沒有問題的是不是我們很爭氣開放就像吳宗憲他的最佳人氣綜藝節目吳宗憲他的主持也常被對岸邀請去啊他也有去對岸不管是參加來賓或是當主持啊但不管怎麼樣如果說我們的京中是"},{"start":772.438,"end":772.578,"text":"我現在只講部長"},{"start":796.491,"end":807.893,"text":"不用這樣氣急敗壞我們文化人喔真的因為我一開始有講你72歲文化阿公部長我很尊重所以這是吳宗憲因為我認識吳宗憲阿因為已經超過三分半我們也希望既然如此我們文化有更高的宏願更高的想像更強的自信面對任何的文化我們可以去輸出我想後續我們請文化部再給洪孟楷委員這個詳細的報告說明喔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":153,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時25分）主席謝謝，麻煩請李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李遠部長。"],["李部長遠：洪委員，你好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。阿公部長很關心向下扎根的議題，12項沃土計畫其中第一個就向下扎根，我先請教一下，上禮拜我們教育及文化委員會由另外一位召委召開公聽會，討論的就是手機在校園裡面的限制管理方向。很多人會講，就如同您的報告裡面所提的，3C產品的盛行讓兒少漸漸失去閱讀的習慣等等，所以你希望能夠再重拾閱讀的能力。請教文化部長，您認為手機在校園裡面應該更禁止或是如同現在一樣？"],["李部長遠：這個部分好像應該教育部部長來回答，但是我個人覺得我們只能繼續開發讓小朋友可以去做別的事情的項目，比如說剛才講到的閱讀，比如說旅遊，我剛才講一百大基地也好，我們推出繪本也好，或者是辦說故事也好，就是想把小孩子拉出3C產品的那個範圍，我們甚至於用科技跟文化來證明，用3C產品對於小孩子腦部的改變，以及他在藝術享用中腦部的改變，希望有這個報告出來，提醒父母親這兩者的差別在哪裡。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在有做這樣的研究嗎？"],["李部長遠：我們正在進行跟國科會的一些申請，希望最後能夠提出一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長，這個就是本席上個禮拜在公聽會講的，我說除了我們大人認為手機可能會影響學習或是影響專注力，以及在手機上面可能會有交友的一些陷阱等等以外，其實更重要的是要拿數據說話。現在我們看到歐美有一些國家已經禁止了，校園不用手機。我也有要求，其實這不只是教育部的工作，因為我記得上禮拜文化部的次長還是司長也有來列席，就代表這個部分其實教育、文化都應該要一體的。所以部長，今天本席是希望能夠讓你做更多的理念宣傳，告訴大家其實除了手機3.5吋、4吋的螢幕以外，還有更大的一個世界……"],["李部長遠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這樣的一個研究什麼時候會出來？我也很認同啊，如果文化部願意做這樣的研究，證明手機跟閱讀有實驗組、對照組來做比較，可以給家長知道一些更客觀的數據，甚至之後我們未來要推動政策的時候能有一個客觀的數據，讓家長更能夠放心。什麼時候可以出來？"],["李部長遠：這一點很簡單，只要國科會願意支持我們的話，它願意支持我們經費，我們就可以做。"],["洪委員孟楷：文化部今年的預算多少錢？"],["李部長遠：目前編列300億……"],["洪委員孟楷：300億？"],["李部長遠：300億裡面大概……"],["洪委員孟楷：這300億裡面沒有任何的……編了300億，我們還要拜託國科會，那國科會今年的預算多少錢？"],["李部長遠：我們的300億裡面就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你這樣子感覺很不勇於任事耶！我現在是肯定你的想法喔，但是我們現在希望的是，如果文化部願意來做，就像你講的嘛，3C產品盛行讓兒少失去閱讀習慣，不喜歡與大自然為伍，這是你的主觀論述還是客觀事實，總要有個研究出來，讓國人更加了解啊！部長。"],["李部長遠：好，那我就回答你我們自己來想辦法好了。"],["洪委員孟楷：自己來做？"],["李部長遠：因為你剛才說我們的文化預算很高，我必須跟你解釋，300億裡面大概有三分之一是工程，然後三分之一，其實我們能用的錢不多……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們都很了解啦！"],["李部長遠：對，我們錢不多，而且我們裡面很多……"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，我們都很了解，而且文化部的預算其實今年也已經大幅提升了啦！","部長，第二個部分，本席看到影劇、影視，我也很認同文化部要來推動影劇、影視，但是我跟很多影劇、影視的好朋友溝通、聊天，發覺現在的現象是文化部有照顧到前面拍攝的部分，在拍攝部分，我們的人才，燈光、音響、導演、編劇，我們的人才都不錯，但是很多狀況變成拍攝出來之後的劇沒有管道、通路能夠上架，能夠被大家看到。我們就講現在國際上的串流平臺，大的平臺，11月又有一個串流平臺要登陸臺灣嘛，對不對？新聞報導講的是強勢進攻，把哈利波特、慾望城市帶進來強勢進攻，一樣，我們的臺劇或是電影能不能也強勢回攻？部長知不知道現在最多人使用的串流平臺Netflix一年購買多少部臺劇？"],["李部長遠：他買臺劇有兩個方式，一個就是買全球的版權，如果能夠取得全球版權的購買，大概成本就可以回來，如果只買臺灣的劇，只買臺灣版權的話，其實是不夠的。至於他一共買多少……"],["洪委員孟楷：你知道他買多少？"],["李部長遠：我不知道，最後的數字我不曉得。"],["洪委員孟楷：就我的了解，Netflix一年可能真真正正授權買的差不多4部而已！"],["李部長遠：買全球版權的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那剩下的，我們一年製作多少臺劇，Netflix可能欽點、看上的是4部，Disney+可能更低，HBO Max現在還沒有上，所以還不知道，但部長，現在我就要跟你討論怎麼樣能夠push我們這些串流平臺通路，當我們有好的產品出來，必須要有好的通路，才能夠讓消費者看到，這個是商業的SOP，那我們怎麼樣做好通路這一塊？"],["李部長遠：好，非常謝謝委員問這個問題，因為的確我們臺灣的串流平臺如果控制在國外的手上的話，我們臺灣的劇真的出不去，現在如果我爭取到下一個100億，其實我就是想做這件事，我想在臺灣先跟三大電信業者來合組基金，其中中華電信我們已經談了快一年，最近接近快要完成了，這是第一個，我們跟中華電信成立大概30億的基金，由他們來操盤，目的就是我們說服臺灣三大電信業者，原來不覺得投資文化內容是有意義的，因為他本身的收入，用文化內容來講可能還是賠錢的，但是我們說服他們說，文化內容如果做出來成功的話，可以賣到全世界，文化部能做的事情就是爭取到國發會的預算，足夠讓我們去跟國際的平臺合作等等。所以委員你問到一個關鍵問題，也就是我們下一個100億要做的事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是本席過去常講的，不要我們自己內部的本土平臺即便做了，也都是買外國的戲劇來播放……"],["李部長遠：是，這是重點。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子就會變成什麼？就像我們過去看有線電視也是一樣，到最後都是買國外的影片來播放是一樣的道理嘛！但是另外一個部分，現行我覺得要分兩個層面，部長，因為這是比較龐大的議題，但是我一定要把我們的立場講清楚，另外一個部分，現行串流平臺上面，我們能夠怎麼樣來協助幫忙，給他們更多的誘因，讓他們不管是購買也好，不管是多吸納也好，因為其實對串流平臺來講，他們放上那個空間沒有問題，甚至有沒有可能跟串流平臺談，能夠先把這些好的影視音作品放上去，然後之後靠點閱還是靠什麼來回收？我覺得這可能都是文化部可以去媒合跟串接的，讓多一點的臺劇、臺影能夠上串流平臺，讓全世界能看到，部長，有沒有辦法？"],["李部長遠：好，其實我們過去沒有補助平臺這個項目……"],["洪委員孟楷：我沒有說要補助平臺，我現在講的是……"],["李部長遠：我們協助它……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼樣跟平臺來溝通、媒合，或者是有一個什麼樣的誘因。"],["李部長遠：是，其實我們有雙管齊下，第一個，我們必須要把我們臺劇的品質提高到別人接受，至少跟日、韓可以競爭。第二個，我們要擁有平臺，在平臺上架以後，我們如何去推廣它，這部分是我心裡最著急，所以為什麼我一上任之後就去找國發會的主委，拜託一定要給我下一個100億，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這一個部分我們之後再討論，但是影視行業裡好的作品跟好的通路都要一起兼顧。","第三個部分，「黑神話：悟空」這個電動被國安體系說是對岸對臺灣的文化統戰，我想已經講到你的專業了，文化統戰，我們說、網路上說，有人質疑這個是中共同路人，部長贊成國安會、國安單位這樣的一個評估嗎？"],["李部長遠：OK，你問的也非常好，其實我不太清楚國安會的完整描述，對我來講，黑悟空跟中華文化是因為中華文化才使得黑悟空大賣嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：「黑神話：悟空」啦！"],["李部長遠：喔，神話悟空我真的不懂，因為我也沒看……"],["洪委員孟楷：你也沒玩？"],["李部長遠：但是你用那個神話悟空，這個東西就叫中華文化嗎？那我們也有動畫叫八戒啊，我們對中華文化這個定義是有點模糊的，我覺得大家……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你也不認同這個是文化統戰？"],["李部長遠：我覺得交流跟統戰，還有就是滲透……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會很多，因為現在臺灣的玩家可以在我們的平臺上面玩到、買到了，你會不會擔心很多臺灣的玩家去玩「黑神話：悟空」被統戰？會不會？"],["李部長遠：那就要看內容啊，有的時候玩得很好玩，裡面如果擺進思想，我覺得文化裡面最可怕的是思想，因為臺灣是民主制度，我們反而開放的讓大家進來……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，您到底知不知道「黑神話：悟空」在玩什麼或是具體是什麼？"],["李部長遠：我不知道啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：不知道？好。"],["李部長遠：那你跟我講一下那玩什麼的……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣比較不好討論啦，不過沒關係，部長，我覺得這個就一樣嘛，因為你是個文化人，我想要問的是國安單位說這是文化統戰，結果我們自己文化部完全沒有警覺或是沒有去思考有人文化統戰，我們要不要去了解、研究這個問題……"],["李部長遠：有，我有警覺啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：結果沒有想到部長到現在誇誇其詞，但是一問三不知，不知道內容是什麼！部長，我再請教，上個禮拜金鐘獎頒獎典禮，其中拿到最佳人氣綜藝節目主持人的吳宗憲，他說他推了10年終於拿到最佳人氣綜藝節目獎了，接下來他有誇下另外一個宏願，他也希望能夠有下一個宏願，部長知道是什麼嗎？"],["李部長遠：我忘了，因為我跟吳宗憲非常熟，他是綜藝節目的大老，他講的東西都很有趣，但是我忘了耶，他有講，我記得，可是我現在忘了。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK，他說希望金鐘獎能夠納入華語節目，讓金鐘獎更大更久。部長認同這句話嗎？"],["李部長遠：你講這個就很像當年金馬獎開放華語電影嘛，當年因為臺灣電影消失了快10年，金馬獎幾乎沒有電影可以參加，才開放……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我先請教你認同吳宗憲主持人這段話嗎？"],["李部長遠：我覺得要看比賽規則，因為大量引進華語節目的話，我們本身的那個……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們可以怎麼做？我先問你認不認同？認不認同納入全部的華語節目這一句話，我們再來討論執行面……"],["李部長遠：OK，那我回答……"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在要先講執行面，那我們就很難討論下去了。"],["李部長遠：為什麼金鐘獎一定要開放華語節目呢？我們當年金馬獎就是開放華語電影之後，有很長一段時間，我們金馬獎被香港跟華語電影占領，臺灣電影幾乎沒有空間，後來是靠我們2008年海角七號起來之後，比較爭氣一點點，後來中國大陸的電影自己撤退以後，我們自己很爭氣啊，近年來中國大陸……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以重點第一是，金鐘獎如果我們很爭氣，開放是沒有問題的，是不是？"],["李部長遠：我們很爭氣，開放……"],["洪委員孟楷：你覺得就像吳宗憲的最佳人氣綜藝節目，吳宗憲的主持也常被對岸邀請去啊，他也有去對岸，不管是參加節目當來賓或是當主持，但不管怎麼樣，如果說我們的金鐘獎是有底氣的，我們金鐘獎是做得好的，甚至我們的金鐘獎可以變成華人世界華語節目的一個指標、象徵，大家認為得到金鐘獎就是一種至高無上的殊榮的時候，會不會對我們來講更加有能見度？"],["李部長遠：吳宗憲講的話，上次說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我現在請教的是你認不認同這句話？"],["李部長遠：他說10年後推動……跟華人有什麼關係……"],["主席：孟楷委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：時間到了，我知道，我尊重召委，但是我現在只想講，部長，不用這樣氣急敗壞，我們文化人，真的，我一開始有講，你72歲，文化阿公部長，我很尊重你……"],["李部長遠：我沒有生氣，我只是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是吳宗憲……"],["李部長遠：因為我認識吳宗憲啊！"],["主席：因為已經超過三分半了啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：我們也希望既然如此，我們文化部有更高的宏願、更高的想像……"],["李部長遠：我們已經很高了啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：更強的自信，面對任何的文化，我們可以去輸出，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝，我想後續請文化部再給洪孟楷委員詳細的報告說明，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"156028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6340c78bb07a6910065d49a24f4c608aef0be32bc181a6f4a13c1fa2322f5407415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"13:49:30 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d":536.954,"text":"類似這樣的狀況就是我們這個新興毒品我們講的有很多種那其中一種是那個彩虹煙彩虹煙其實年輕人尤其是學生校園學生因為這個是很容易取得而且它的這個製作簡單然後其實它也不貴重點它也不貴所以我們要怎麼去防範那"},{"start":538.875,"end":557.58,"text":"尤其是年輕人這些新興毒品看到全部幾乎都是年輕人在使用那我不知道說你們這兩個部會未來要怎麼就是說第一個我覺得說罰則重是不是剛剛楊委員也有特別提到那是不是列為現在目前還列為這個第三第三級嗎"},{"start":559.532,"end":582.767,"text":"根委報告因為新興毒品種類非常多那大部分大概是卡西同類那是卡西同類三級嘛那有關於這個像校園裡面兒少私用毒品的那一塊即使如果是私用一二級毒品的話那會歸到那個少年法庭那邊去阿如果是私用三四級毒品這個行政"},{"start":583.787,"end":585.289,"text":"警政署稍微回應一下"},{"start":605.855,"end":619.159,"text":"保護委員,那假如我們校園有查獲到毒品的話,我們會去溯源,那包括各種新興的毒品我們都會溯源,有溯源到校園的部分的話,我們就會結合教育部以及相關單位來聯合查處。"},{"start":622.337,"end":638.367,"text":"最後我是真的要確實就是說我們的社會當中我剛剛講的那個大樓確實真的真實的存在那再來就是新興毒品真的現在年輕人取得就是要取得這種新興毒品確實是非常容易"},{"start":638.507,"end":663.695,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":663.755,"end":663.895,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1723,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（13時49分）謝謝主席，我們請法務部司長跟內政部警政監。"],["主席：請法務部郭司長、內政部吳警政監。"],["郭司長永發：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：司長好。司長，今天我們委員會討論新興毒品的問題，我想請教的是，其實在一般的大樓、住宅區的大樓，有很多民眾也會反映，因為大樓可能因為通風的關係、管線的關係，所以有時候上下樓層或者是其他地方有住戶在抽菸，甚至有可能是吸毒的煙味，其實透過大樓的管線都可以聞得到，曾經有民眾是透過報案，就直接報案，可是報案的話，警察只能就報案的人去瞭解，可是他不知道這個味道是從哪裡來，像這樣子的話，我們民眾要怎麼自我保護？總不能每天都聞到這樣的味道啊，也許在聞到一些味道時，他認為那個就是毒品的味道，可是請警察來，警察也不可能每戶去敲門，也許報案住戶知道是哪一家，可是如果沒有搜索票的話，要怎麼進到人家的那個家裡面去呢？請問司長，遇到這樣的問題要怎麼辦？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，這是偵查實務個案，首先第一個當然是有一定的流程，聞到味道後感覺怪怪的，好像是毒品，但是不是毒品他可能也不知道，像我自己也沒聞過，我也搞不清楚那是不是毒品，這個時候如果覺得是毒品的話，認為可能有人在吸毒，他可能就直接跟派出所報案，那派出所警員就會來訪查。現在因為通風管線的關係，這是一個查證的過程，所以社區管委會可能也要發揮一點功能。就我們偵查人員來講的話，大概你報案之後，我就開始蒐集證據，如果要請到搜索票這一點，我一定要找得到某一個點，甚至是可能的對象，可能涉嫌初步的犯罪情節，這樣才有辦法向法官取得這個搜索票，這個流程是這樣子的。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以就是說目前確實有這樣一個狀況發生，住在大樓裡面的民眾，其實他們也大約知道是哪一戶，也許某一天這個人可能被警察帶到派出所，經過詢問後發現他也許有吸毒，但他被抓之後可能沒多久又被交保，然後又回到社區裡面，我覺得這個狀況是不停地在發生，只是我們想要知道，如果民眾遇到這樣的狀況確實是會不堪其擾，這確實是在我們生活當中存在、發生的事情。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然我們在第一時間一定是跟派出所報案嘛，就是說，民眾遇到這樣的狀況要怎麼樣避免再有這樣的事情發生？再來就是說，這個可能吸毒的人又回到社區之後，也許他知道是誰報案的，他可能會對那個人言語威脅，我覺得這個真實的狀況確實在我們生活當中出現，因此我們希望法務部跟內政部要確實去重視這個問題。"],["郭司長永發：是，跟委員報告，因為我們下班也是一般人啦，也是住在社區，這個我們都會碰到，有關於第一線的，像委員垂詢的這種第一線的查緝，是不是請警政署……"],["黃委員秀芳：警政署，你們這邊會怎麼去處理這樣的情況？"],["吳警政監東文：委員好，根據我們新世代反毒策略，到目前為止，我們警政署其實是一個友善通報網，這個友善通報網是包含各個社區，所以各個社區假如有反映的話，我們警察會立即在第一時間來做處理，假如是臨時租戶的話，我們就會把他趕出去，假如是固定住戶的話，就會依照大廈管理條例的規定來做處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，接下來我要請教兩個部會的是，其實我在地方都會一直聽到目前的毒品防制相關法規好像很寬鬆，如果持有三級或四級毒品的處罰門檻降為純質淨重5公克以上，如果是持有的話，其實這個罪刑還不是很大。現在新興毒品有的是把毒放在咖啡包裡面，咖啡包裡面的含毒不可能一次就放了5公克以上，所以可能是持有好多包，所以為什麼說我們現在毒品的咖啡包會進到校園，其實就是很容易取得啊，確實是很容易取得，像這樣子的話，我們有沒有可能再去檢視一下目前毒品危害防制條例的罰則部分，有沒有可能再去做一個修改？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，有關於毒咖啡包的部分，向來都是列為我們高檢署統合六大系統查緝毒品最主要軸心的一個重點工作，有關於委員垂詢的刑度以及純質淨重，其實我們已經降過幾次了，有關於持有要處罰的部分，就純質淨重的部分，毒品危害防制條例已經修了兩次還是幾次我忘記了，有逐一將持有重量降低來入刑化。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以有沒有可能就是說，針對我剛剛講的那個咖啡包，它裡面的含量可能是0.2、0.4公克嘛，也許要拿了十幾包才達淨重5公克啊，但拿了十幾包就表示可以給十幾個人使用耶，像這樣子的話，如果他是持有，然後又拿給別人用，我覺得這個應該要去討論一下相關刑責或者是罰責是不是要加重。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，他拿了這麼多包，可能我們在證據上會朝著販賣的方向來辦理，如果是販賣三級或四級毒品，最輕本刑是五年以上有期徒刑，這個就是重的刑度了，那個就是我們在查緝面有關於證據蒐集部分會儘可能的去做，如果有販賣、製造，我們會嚴厲的來查緝他。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛有很多委員也特別提到現在的新興毒品，我們也看到前陣子有派出所所長被女毒販撞死，確實新興毒品在我們社會當中對於治安及人身安全造成危害。我想請教的就是，目前新興毒品可能已經年輕化了，我們也看到這幾年因為吸食新興毒品致死的案件也逐年在增加，我想請教的是，目前新興毒品有很多種，例如其中一種彩虹菸，彩虹菸其實年輕人，尤其是校園學生，因為這個很容易取得，而且製作簡單，然後也不貴，重點是不貴，請問我們要怎麼去防範？尤其是年輕人，這些新興毒品看到的幾乎都是年輕人在使用，我不知道你們這兩個部會未來要怎麼做，第一個，我覺得罰責重，就像剛剛楊委員也有特別提到的，目前還列為第三級嘛……"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，因為新興毒品種類非常多，大部分大概是卡西酮類（三級），有關於校園裡面兒少施用毒品的那一塊，如果是施用一、二級毒品的話，會歸到少年法庭那邊去，如果是施用三、四級毒品這個行政處分的部分，因為自從少年事件處理法修了之後，我們檢察官其實已經退出這一塊了，這部分就由少輔會來處理，整個有關於校園兒少施用毒品這一塊是由警政署在處理查緝的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，請警政署稍微回應一下。"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，假如我們在校園有查獲到毒品的話，我們會去溯源，包括各種新興的毒品我們都會溯源，有溯源到校園部分的話，我們就會結合教育部以及相關單位來聯合查處。"],["黃委員秀芳：最後，真的確實就是我們社會當中，我剛剛講的那個大樓確實真的真實的存在。那再來就是新興毒品，真的，現在年輕人要取得這種新興毒品確實是非常容易，而且製作簡單，價格也不貴，所以我覺得不論是警政署或是法務部，針對這一部分，第一個是溯源，我覺得追溯販賣源頭真的非常重要，就是一旦知道有人在吸食，我覺得應該要去溯源到底是誰在販賣，我覺得這個非常的重要。另外就是，販賣的刑責是不是要再加重？要不然我覺得大家都罰不怕，確實是罰不怕，這個真的造成我們整個治安一個很重大的危害，所以我也再次拜託我們兩個部會，確實針對這部分再來加強。謝謝。"],["郭司長永發：好，謝謝委員提醒。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","繼續請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63322967c1d3f95cf35d49a24f4c608aef0be32bc181a6f4a184ce2c86cf23990f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:41:37 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請衛福部部長"},{"start":17.799,"end":45.875,"text":"委員好昨天我在總質詢的時候跟你就教就是我們現在急診室等病房時間越來越長的問題那其實現在的醫療的問題其實不只是這樣那最近有一個抗藥性的病菌他現在是全球的十大健康威脅他也會造成住院天數增加而且醫療的費用增加那如果沒有效控制的話這個醫療界他們預估在2050年會可能會讓全台有3.3萬的人死亡會佔每年總死亡人數的兩成"},{"start":47.196,"end":67.615,"text":"那我都不知道你有掌握到這個狀況嗎?不是掌握,我瞭解到這種趨勢瞭解趨勢齁那接下來跟你討論一下我們要怎麼樣去防避這件事情我們都會想辦法來現在主要是有六大抗藥性的細菌現在有一些趨勢表格我們也從醫學期刊裡面有找到"},{"start":67.955,"end":72.577,"text":"在區域醫院已經高達19.9在醫學中心有3.4所以它的趨勢是一直往上而且是越來越嚴重"},{"start":88.965,"end":113.251,"text":"那這個病菌現在已經造成醫院的一些負擔了比如說因為他如果要隔離的話必須要有負壓隔離病房但是負壓隔離病房根本不夠醫護也不夠所以有的時候被發現有感染的就是在原來病床加一個簾子實際上他並沒有辦法達到任何的隔絕的作用他就會造成院內感染那我特別把這個CRKP特別跟部長來討論你有聽過這個"},{"start":115.452,"end":116.832,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為．"},{"start":141.209,"end":161.862,"text":"沒有對不對我跟你講我有跟CDC調資料啦這是CDC給的資料CRKP在112年的時候呢感染人數是1961那死亡率我們如果是死亡人數如果是抓一半的話大概也將近1000個人死亡113年已經到目前為止感染人數已經830億人但是部長這個是精確的數字嗎欸部長"},{"start":166.513,"end":191.941,"text":"我們現在質詢欸我再看你這個資料你不要跟旁邊那個聊天我對你這個資料這CDC給的啊你會給我假資料嗎是那因為齁我跟委員報告齁因為我們因為這個問題所以我現在在看的資料就是衛福部也提其實也提出了國家級防疫不是我現在問你人數啦不要在那邊答非所問好不好人數人數如果是習慣屬題的應該是沒有錯"},{"start":195.345,"end":207.121,"text":"部長你根本我跟你講好不好就是不是這個數字為什麼你知道嗎不是這個數字因為現在在你們的疾管署建置的這個系統裡面他是採非 採自願式方式通報啊"},{"start":208.223,"end":236.007,"text":"他自願就通報啦不自願就不通報啦所以有一大堆黑數啦所以我剛剛給你看的數字根本沒辦法反應全貌是但我現在不懂的就是剛剛你也承認說這個致死率很高而且情況越來越嚴重可是我們卻對醫院如果發現這樣的器具我們不去管理他我們才自願性通報到底我們衛福部對於相關的處置你的態度跟立場到底是什麼啊我們當然一定要全那為什麼是自願式通報"},{"start":240.27,"end":266.925,"text":"你知道這個問題非常嚴重因為我有個朋友今年年初的時候在其中一家醫院北部的他說他發現在呼吸治療病房裡面很多人抬出去都是因為感染的類似的細菌欸所以我完全都不瞭解這個情形因為機關室應該因為機關室的專家都是當今對那我現在問部長您是部長您更是專家為什麼這次採取志願式的方式來通報為什麼"},{"start":270.746,"end":289.308,"text":"基本上這個應該都是要自動就會通報所以不能只有自驗應該是所以你覺得不可以是不是那這個機關署歸你管嗎應該要全部通報那機關署是不是歸你管我們馬上來了解一下這樣的部長怎麼感覺好像我沒跟你講這個你還不了解狀況你是衛福部長"},{"start":291.977,"end":308.243,"text":"因為我們尊重那個業館他已經這個你去了解一下好不好你可不可以去了解一下然後再來就是還有另外你們現在剛你要講就是這個計畫嘛全民健保抗維生物質際管理計畫嘛你要講這個嘛編了2.25億元嘛對不對每次支付不是這個計畫不是要管理及感染的品質提升"},{"start":319.417,"end":345.69,"text":"我們的簽名其實叫做國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性反抗生素這2億那個經過明年2億對嘛那一樣嘛一樣東西嘛對啊每一次一個病人每次支付1000點按照現在健保點子還要打折啦然後還要扣東扣西的最後實際上用在病人身上人沒多少了啦所以我們國家呢光是補助一個0日供給就補助1.13億元啦"},{"start":348.431,"end":348.511,"text":"主席"},{"start":363.279,"end":388.486,"text":"根據一些醫療的報導研究臺灣至少需要1113位感染科醫師可是現在臺灣整個職業登記只有771位而且今年只有20位報考而且報考的醫生人數是逐年下降所以你現在感染科醫師也有造成很大的缺口最後王必勝曾在之前還就任的時候他說感染科要列為不定專科但目前列為不定專科了嗎?部長"},{"start":391.363,"end":407.981,"text":"部長,目前列為不定專科嗎?肝癌科?肝癌科現在還沒...還沒嗎?我在跟部長講話為什麼都一直有人來聊天啊?那你這樣就拖延我執行時間啊,我剛剛一直被暗靈欸"},{"start":410.261,"end":427.61,"text":"感染科不是不定的專科不定的就是像內科、外科所以不是嘛那問題是之前王必勝講的嘛刺專科所以現在是吃專科嘛對嘛所以你承諾說之前衛福部承諾要變不定專科表示重視感染科現在仍然是刺專科所以我現在是把問題跟你講這細菌很嚴重"},{"start":429.571,"end":429.591,"text":"謝謝葉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1658,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時41分）主席，麻煩請衛福部部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。昨天我在總質詢的時候有向你就教，現在急診室等病房時間越來越長的問題嘛，其實現在的醫療問題不只是這樣，最近有一個抗藥性的病菌，現在是全球的十大健康威脅，也會造成住院天數增加啦，而且醫療費用也會增加，如果沒有有效控制的話，醫療界預估在2050年可能會讓全臺有3.3萬人死亡，占每年總死亡人數的二成。部長，你有沒有掌握到這個狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：不是掌握，我瞭解到這種趨勢……"],["葉委員元之：瞭解趨勢？好，接下來我跟你討論一下我們要怎麼樣去防避這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：當然我們都會想辦法來……"],["葉委員元之：現在主要是有六大抗藥性的細菌啦，現在有一些趨勢的表格，我們也從相關的醫學期刊裡面有找到，像這個是一些不同抗藥性的病菌、細菌，譬如你可以看CRKP，以CRKP在醫院跟醫學中心在抗藥性菌的占比來看，在區域醫院已經高達19.9%，在醫學中心有3.4%，所以它的趨勢是一直往上，而且是越來越嚴重。這個病菌現在已經造成醫院的一些負擔，比如說如果要隔離的話必須要有負壓隔離病房，但是負壓隔離病房根本不夠，醫護也不夠，所以有的時候發現被感染了，就是在原來病床加一個簾子，實際上這並沒有辦法達到任何的隔絕作用，這樣就會造成院內感染。我特別拿CRKP來跟部長討論，您有聽過這個細菌嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然有聽過。"],["葉委員元之：它的學名是碳青黴烯類耐藥肺炎克雷伯菌，你知道它的致死率多少嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個很高喔。"],["葉委員元之：非常高啊。"],["邱部長泰源：嗯，非常高。"],["葉委員元之：醫學雜誌的評估是40%到60%，大家是抓50%，50%的致死率算高還低？很高吧？"],["邱部長泰源：算高、算高。"],["葉委員元之：很高，現在衛福部有沒有掌握這個細菌的感染人數？有嗎？沒有，對不對？我跟你講，我有跟CDC調資料，這是CDC給的資料，CRKP在112年的感染人數是1,961人，以死亡率50%來說，人數抓一半的話大概也將近1,000人死亡；113年到目前為止的感染人數已經831人。部長，這個是精確的數字嗎？部長，我們現在在質詢耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我在看你這個資料。"],["葉委員元之：你不要跟旁邊的人聊天喔！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，我在對你的這個資料。"],["葉委員元之：不是，這是CDC給的啊，你會給我假資料嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我跟委員報告，針對這個問題，我現在看的資料是衛福部其實也提出了國家級防疫計畫……"],["葉委員元之：不是，我現在問你人數啦，不要在這邊答非所問，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：人數，人數如果是疾管署提的，應該是沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我跟你講，就不是這個數字，為什麼你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不是這個數字？"],["葉委員元之：因為現在在你們疾管署建置的系統裡面，它是採志願性方式通報，志願的話就通報，不志願就不通報，所以有一大堆黑數啦，所以我剛剛給你看的數字根本沒辦法反映全貌。但我現在不懂的就是，剛剛你也承認這個致死率很高，而且情況越來越嚴重，可是我們對醫院如果發現這樣的細菌卻不去管理，我們採志願性通報，衛福部對於相關的處置，你的態度跟立場到底是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然一定要全力……"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼是志願性通報？你知道這個問題非常嚴重耶！我有個朋友，今年年初的時候在其中一家醫院，北部的，他說他發現在呼吸治療病房裡面，很多人被抬出去都是因為感染了類似的細菌耶，所以衛福部完全都不瞭解這個情形！"],["邱部長泰源：因為疾管署的專家都是當今的感染專家……"],["葉委員元之：對，那我現在問部長，您是部長，您更是專家，為什麼這是採取志願性方式來通報？為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：基本上這個應該都是自動就會通報，所以不能只有志願啦，應該是……"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得不可以，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：應該要全部通報……"],["葉委員元之：疾管署不歸你管嗎？疾管署是不是歸你管？"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來瞭解一下這樣的……"],["葉委員元之：不是，部長，怎麼感覺好像我沒跟你講這個，你還不瞭解狀況，你是衛福部長耶！"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們尊重業管，它已經……"],["葉委員元之：這個你去瞭解一下，好不好？你可不可以去瞭解一下？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，我們已經在……"],["葉委員元之：再來，剛剛你要講的就是這個計畫嘛，全民健保抗微生物製劑管理計畫，你要講這個嘛，編了2.25億元，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是管理行動計畫。"],["葉委員元之：不是這個計畫喔？"],["邱部長泰源：我們計畫的全名其實叫做國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫……"],["葉委員元之：多少錢？總共編了多少錢？"],["邱部長泰源：2億……"],["葉委員元之：總共編了多少錢？"],["邱部長泰源：那個經過……"],["葉委員元之：2.25億，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：明年2億。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，一樣嘛，一樣的東西嘛！對啊，一個病人每次支付一千點，按照現在健保點值還要打折，然後還要扣東扣西的，最後實際上用在病人身上可能沒多少了啦！我們國家光是一個「零日攻擊」就補助1.13億元，大概就是這整個計畫的二分之一，所以你投入的經費非常少嘛，投入的經費非常少代表你對這個根本不重視！","我很快再講另外一個問題，感染科醫師現在也不夠啊，根據一些醫療報導研究，臺灣至少需要1,113位感染科醫師，可是現在臺灣整個執業登記只有771位，而且今年只有20位報考，報考的醫生人數是逐年下降，所以現在感染科醫師也有很大的缺口啊！","最後，王必勝在之前還在任的時候曾說過感染科要列為部定專科，請問目前列為部定專科了嗎？部長，感染科目前列為部定專科了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：感染科現在還沒……"],["葉委員元之：還沒嘛！為什麼每次我在跟部長講話都一直有人來聊天啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不是，是提供資訊。"],["葉委員元之：你這樣就拖延我質詢時間啊，我剛剛一直被按鈴耶！"],["邱部長泰源：感染科不是部定的專科，部定的就是像內科、外科……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，所以不是嘛，問題這是之前王必勝講的嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：感染科是次專科。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在是次專科嘛，對嘛，之前衛福部承諾要變部定專科是表示重視感染科，現在仍然是次專科，所以我現在是把問題跟你講，這細菌很嚴重，然後你們也沒有要求他們一定要通報，感染科醫師也不足，編列的預算也不夠，那你有沒有決心要解決這個問題？如果不解決的話，急診室等病房越等越久，醫療的費用會越來越增加，現在感覺部長是不瞭解啦，所以幕僚才會一直上來耳提面命嘛，是不是可以給我一份報告，詳細的，補給我，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員，謝謝部長及副署長。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員，陳亭妃委員不在。","接續請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156026","v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件：一個是成癮性、一個是濫用性、一個是對社會的危害性，就這三個特性來做評估。依托咪酯是在6月分列為三級毒品，8月分由行政院公告開始生效。"],["楊委員曜：司長，你剛才講了三個標準，一個是濫用性，一個是……"],["郭司長永發：成癮性。"],["楊委員曜：成癮性，這兩點喪屍煙彈好像都還滿符合的，第三點就更符合了，我剛剛講了，它可以在一般生活中，在交通工具上邊坐邊吸食，我覺得不加重罰責的話，以後不幸的事件會持續發生。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，依托咪酯是不是要升級為二級毒品這件事，本部部長已經交代指示，我們在禮拜一，就是這個禮拜一已經發文給各機關徵詢、蒐集意見；蒐集完了之後，預計在11月下旬或12月初將召開毒品審議委員會，把這些資料再提供給毒審委員會的委員審酌，看是不是要把它升級為二級毒品來管制。"],["楊委員曜：當然必須經過審查委員會審查，不過開會時間是你們可以決定的？"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["楊委員曜：所以必須儘速因應社會現象的產生，提出解決方案，好不好？"],["郭司長永發：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝司長，司長請回。"],["郭司長永發：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：請國健署副署長。署長怎麼沒來？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，吳署長去韓國參與亞太公共衛生會議，並發表與臺灣有關的成果論文發表。"],["楊委員曜：部長請坐，我問副署長就好了，捨不得讓你站太久。"],["賈副署長淑麗：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：副署長，根據國健署在110年就青少年吸菸行為的調查發現，國高中生吸食紙菸的比例已經獲得控制？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：可是電子煙的使用率是在增加的，為什麼？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，確實有這樣的趨勢，國中生使用電子煙的比率目前最新資料是到3.9%。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["賈副署長淑麗：高中職使用電子煙的比率相較108年也上升，現在已經到了8.8%，這已經是事實了。"],["楊委員曜：所以大概已經到八萬了？"],["賈副署長淑麗：七點九萬人。"],["楊委員曜：對，但我是問原因。"],["賈副署長淑麗：原因是紙菸的吸食率降低，又因為電子煙比較酷炫，對於年輕人來說具有一定的吸引力。"],["楊委員曜：用這點來推論的話就表示，當加熱式菸品出來以後，你們在防制面上必須要先有對策。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是的，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：因為它是酷炫的，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對。目前我們在審查加熱菸的過程中，也對後市場管理有非常大的要求。"],["楊委員曜：沒錯嘛？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對。"],["楊委員曜：因為從現在的數據就可以看出以後會發生什麼事，所以現在就必須先做好準備。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是，防患於未然，謝謝委員提醒。"],["楊委員曜：還有，在查獲的件數上，就我這邊的資料來看，吸食電子煙查獲的案件數也太少了。"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，兩年累計下來，到目前為止，真正使用者被我們查獲且開罰的為404次。"],["楊委員曜：404？可能有一些雖查獲但沒有開罰？"],["賈副署長淑麗：正在行政程序中。"],["楊委員曜：查獲一定開罰，還是不一定？"],["賈副署長淑麗：查獲要約詢。"],["楊委員曜：要約詢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：然後會有一些行政程序，剛才部長也有特別指示要加速、加強相關的……"],["楊委員曜：因為真的太少了，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：了解，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：副署長請回，我臨時想到一個問題要請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。剛剛徐富癸委員說到恆春醫院的醫師人力問題，就我的觀察，醫中支援計畫實施這麼久，但我一直搞不清楚：為什麼醫學中心無限量增加，而在醫中支援離島偏鄉計畫下，要一個醫生卻這麼困難？部長懂我的意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["楊委員曜：我不知道為什麼他們要升格那麼容易，僅今年一年就升格了三家，健保給付增加了，各項優渥條件也拿走了，但應該要負擔的責任為什麼部裡面在處理時會這麼困難？我不知道到底問題在哪裡！"],["邱部長泰源：這應該是醫事人員本身的選擇……"],["楊委員曜：不是，這是醫學中心必須要去解決的事！假如我沒有記錯，醫中支援離島偏鄉是評鑑項目之一，結果現在原本是醫學中心的沒有降級，不是醫學中心的也升級了，就表示你們在評鑑時，醫學中心在這個項目上並沒有遇到你們的挑戰！你們不挑戰它，到底是包庇它，還是它真的做得很好？如果它做得很好，徐富癸委員也不用為了要一個醫生……其實不只恆春，澎湖、金門、馬祖、離島偏鄉要一個醫學中心的人力支援都很困難，部長有沒有聽懂我的意思？"],["邱部長泰源：我想所有的醫學中心其實都有派員到偏鄉……"],["楊委員曜：不是，20家醫學中心的時候也遇到支援人力短缺的問題；23家也遇到，以你們目前增加的數量來看，搞不好明年30家了，也還是會遇到！"],["邱部長泰源：對，所以不管醫學中心有幾家，我們也給它任務，可是如果醫師很難派的話，的確……"],["楊委員曜：那麼評鑑時就不應該過啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不是不應該過，而是可能會失分。醫院評鑑時除非是必要條件一定要做到……"],["楊委員曜：部長，現在我當壞人給你壓力，讓你加一點壓力給醫學中心，不能拿走那麼多健保資源，卻不負擔應該要負起的責任！"],["邱部長泰源：是，這是一個方式。至於偏鄉加強，其實政府也有偏鄉加強計畫，兩方面來同時進行……"],["楊委員曜：不是！我現在不討論其他計畫，因為就算是兩個計畫也沒有辦法填補！我們現在就單從為什麼臺灣的醫療機關評鑑會造成一直有醫院升級，而應該要處理的問題一直沒有辦法處理？部長，你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個我們有在檢討。"],["楊委員曜：其實醫學中心支援不甘不願，然後成效不好，這個也是本席一直反對醫學中心無限量增加的一個原因……"],["邱部長泰源：瞭解、瞭解。"],["楊委員曜：我再講一次，在這一些問題還沒有解決之前，你們不要再有醫學中心升級了。"],["邱部長泰源：是，瞭解。"],["楊委員曜：讓他們這樣升級，升級了這麼多間醫院，但升到澎湖也欠缺、金門也欠缺、屏東也欠缺……"],["邱部長泰源：如果增加醫學中心，結果對偏鄉的幫助並沒有增加，這個可能……"],["楊委員曜：不是，這個本來就規定了嘛，醫中支援人力的計畫實施大概10年了，納入評鑑也10年了嘛，一直沒有辦法解決，派不出來就降級啊，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來督促。"],["楊委員曜：好啦，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","接續請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d636fe4cebf12fb25138446428ab222207f36925e9381caa8c4f89920774d13967f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:43:01 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謝謝主席剛剛聽陳委員在這個垂詢杜董事長聽來還蠻高興的就臺鐵的文資嘛那我就先請杜董事長部長你先休息一下那也請部長聽聽我跟杜董事長的這樣的相關的這樣一個討論"},{"start":25.26,"end":51.76,"text":"我等於說臺鐵舉辦臺鐵公司之後董事長有在文資這一塊確實有做了一個蠻大幅度的調整來招聘更多的這些更專業更好的這些人才來針對臺鐵相關的文資保安歷史建物來做這樣的一個處理嘛對不對那當然還是要文化部來做協助嘛那我再請教一下那我現在有看到這個古蹟台南站在修繕臺鐵是預計要11月底絕標嘛"},{"start":54.442,"end":66.069,"text":"那個11月底絕標是臺南市政府的文資局他協助我們做現況調查的也有臺南市政府、地方政府去協助你們做現況的調查、做結報對不對那斗蘭、歷史進入斗蘭火車站"},{"start":76.875,"end":85.526,"text":"我要提醒我要提醒董事長齁這個是鄭前部長現在的鄭副院長林前部長齁家榮兄都有到的地方"},{"start":86.98,"end":110.789,"text":"是對那個跟委員報告齁斗南委員剛剛提到的是那個舊站是啊那是舊站啊現在就不用修了我們現在齁有有編列那個修復的經費了我們預計在七千萬七千萬嗎對我們預計在明年的四月明年四月對來公告發包公告發包所以你們系社什麼時候完成"},{"start":115.572,"end":119.833,"text":"我特別提到是在鄭前部長的時候就已經到這個地方來了我們特別邀鄭部長現在鄭副院長到這個地方那林前部長也到這個地方他這個地方確實絕對有達到讓臺鐵在整個歷史建物"},{"start":142.717,"end":163.603,"text":"在整個這個文化資產的一個維護裡面然後進而把它變成一個亮點那甚至後來林前部長在另外王前部長也都有在到這個地方我們希望這個地方串聯整個倉庫的這個整修甚至可以變成一個鐵道文化園區"},{"start":166.404,"end":187.938,"text":"圖顯整個臺鐵對這個地方的重視而且它不只倉庫聯動的倉庫不只這個舊站體還有一個新站體嘛對不對然後周遭還有蠻多是臺鐵的土地所以這個地方要變成一個臺鐵的這個陡嵐的鐵道文化園區文化部也支持那我們臺鐵局現在的第一步的作為是什麼"},{"start":189.784,"end":213.64,"text":"郭委員報告據我的了解現在除了我們這個斗南那個舊站的整修以外其實周遭包括剛剛委員講的倉庫還有一些土地現在應該比較多是屬於那個市政府縣政府的縣政府的所以要成立一個比較大範圍的那個文化園區的一個規劃這個我們應該要跟縣政府一起"},{"start":217.803,"end":232.723,"text":"努力啦呃 沒關係啦呃 就規劃的方面 董事長 董事長 規劃的方面好 那 那到底規劃的第一步有踏出去了嗎也 也 不然 不然就這麼講嘛齁你們的第一步是什麼 就簡單 明確答我就好了嘿"},{"start":234.203,"end":257.33,"text":"這第一步的話當然是要去規劃一下他的範圍阿有了嗎 有規劃了嗎還沒有 目前還沒有對 就從政前部長現在政務院長一直到林建永部長一直到王國采部長聯合國際部長都有去我記得當時杜局長也有去過 對不對我們最後那個地方是屬於你們台砥局的"},{"start":258.157,"end":284.211,"text":"我們利用走到那一個樓上新站的二樓看過去的那個很大倉庫那也是台鐵局的右邊的土地也是台鐵局的火車站的正對面好像寶雅珠的那塊周遭的土地也都是台鐵局的那個腹地何其之大對 那我們經歷過一個文化部長兩個前部長你們到現在規劃的地步都還沒有"},{"start":285.752,"end":305.655,"text":"好,這個跟委員報告,這個我回去再趕快我們來進行我們的一個研議啦好了,辦公局長一個月內給我們一個第一步的計畫好不好第一步,我只要求第一步的計畫,就跨出去的計畫就好初步的一個評估的一個做法啦,設想一個月內嘛,可以吧"},{"start":306.536,"end":323.558,"text":"那就代表剛剛杜董事長在答覆村委員的就確實你在這個地方有做調整我相信臺鐵今天要高鐵啦齁要跟高鐵讓消費者有所區別啦齁坦白講臺鐵一定要利用這些文資啦這些文資利用得越精緻啦越到位啦"},{"start":324.857,"end":325.418,"text":"臺鐵越花光花熱"},{"start":342.067,"end":362.407,"text":"謝謝陳部長這個我們交通部署有報告是這樣臺鐵建設三輪分別110年有5次、113年有3次重大的形成事故那113年一般事故平均42件一場事件平均發生是600餘件那脫落起來就是一般加一場就是642件坦白講平均一天就1.75的事故"},{"start":365.47,"end":381.058,"text":"我部長部長對這大大小小事故要怎麼如何進行這個檢討這個數字確實是國人看起來不會很滿意所以今天的報告的第一個重點就是說確保安全的部分要先做好第二才是提升服務品質的部分"},{"start":381.738,"end":396.555,"text":"所以這個部分其實我看臺鐵有相當多的計畫在處理安全的這個議題那不過我認為橫向的聯繫跟橫向的這個討論可能還不太足夠那這個部分我們正在整合當中安全的部分很多的計畫"},{"start":397.176,"end":398.557,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":419.784,"end":435.731,"text":"大致上的規律我也沒有說部長要在這邊討論但部長知道今年的1月到7月這個一般加異常事故已經累積幾件了部長知道嗎委員您上面有寫551件551件你看他到1到7月就已經551件現在已經10月了我們手上沒有89的資料顯然已經超越112年的沒錯"},{"start":447.516,"end":475.223,"text":"這個 這個是很大的問題啦我們認為它的穩定性確實是要加強尤其在公司化之後我們是希望公司化之後效率要提升那如果公司化之後效率又更低那當然是不好那幾個方面要處理啦一方面就是我剛剛在講的那些計畫要好好的進行第二其實我有發現說臺鐵在近一兩年裡面人才的流失是個問題所以這個部分我們也正在努力留才的部分怎麼樣讓他的薪資能提高怎麼樣讓他的工作環境能夠更好"},{"start":475.943,"end":503.709,"text":"讓人才能夠留下來因為臺鐵很多都是技術面的問題那如果人才流動得很快速的話其實對於技術面的保留是不好的所以部長知道這個事情就是一個核心的問題連監察院都有針對臺鐵安全改革執行的這個審核通知事項有去揭露三缺嘛我們臺鐵有三缺嘛對不對這三缺很清楚缺信心缺人力缺法制然後我知道目前為止借領退休有200多位"},{"start":504.989,"end":532.757,"text":"然後特考上的因故位卻則有100幾位這補不進來補不到位然後到時候可能會面臨將近2000餘人的空缺跟委員報告不是這樣的不是這樣我們估計從公司成立一直到今年的年底我們大約會有包含那個在1月1號優退的包含那個我們在今年的年底大概會有15"},{"start":533.877,"end":550.35,"text":"一、五、四、三人來調走或者是退休或者就是離開但是我們從去年的特考一直延續到今年的從業人員考試我們一共禁用了一、六、二、三人"},{"start":551.05,"end":569.292,"text":"所以人力上是夠的而且我們在年底之前我們還會再禁用722人人力上確定是夠的所以監察院的報告是有問題但是剛剛有一個重點就是新進來的人我們要怎麼樣能夠讓他要留得住"},{"start":569.813,"end":570.614,"text":"臺鐵的員工都很辛苦"},{"start":585.664,"end":605.759,"text":"董事長就是有義務要照顧好他們對不對所以這個缺信心在經常會報告裡面放在第一項這是很恐怖一件事情是不是這些事情我們也不希望一般加那個異常事故會再一直的往上提升改制之後反而說還比去年還更多這個是不是請部長這邊折騰一個月內一個檢討修正的報告給我們做參考好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1317,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時43分）謝謝主席。剛剛聽陳委員在垂詢杜董事長，聽了還滿高興的，就臺鐵的文資嘛！那我就先請杜董事長，部長你先休息一下，也請部長聽聽我跟杜董事長相關的討論。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：等於說臺鐵局變臺鐵公司之後，杜董事長確實有在文資這一塊做了一個大幅度的調整，也招聘更多更專業、更好的這些人才，針對臺鐵相關的文資，包含歷史建物，來做這樣的處理嘛！對不對？當然還是要文化部來做協助。我再請教一下，我現在有看到古蹟臺南站在修繕，臺鐵是預計要11月底決標嘛！對不對？"],["杜董事長微：11月底決標是臺南市政府的文資局，它協助我們做現況調查。"],["劉委員建國：好，也有地方政府──臺南市政府去協助你們做現況的調查，對不對？"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["劉委員建國：那歷史建物斗南火車站呢？我要提醒董事長，這個是鄭前部長──現在的鄭副院長、林前部長佳龍兄都有到的地方。"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，委員剛剛提到的斗南是舊站。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！當然是舊站，新的就不用修了。"],["杜董事長微：我們現在有編列修復的經費，預計在……"],["劉委員建國：多少？"],["杜董事長微：7,000萬。"],["劉委員建國：7,000萬喔？"],["杜董事長微：對，我們預計在明年4月……"],["劉委員建國：發包？"],["杜董事長微：公告發包。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們細設什麼時候完成？"],["杜董事長微：現在已經完成了。"],["劉委員建國：好，細設完成了，然後明年4月會來辦理發包？"],["杜董事長微：工程標。"],["劉委員建國：工程標會在明年4月嘛？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝董事長對這個事情的在意、重視。我特別提到的是在鄭前部長的時候，就已經到這個地方來，我們特別邀鄭部長──現在鄭副院長到這個地方，林前部長也到這個地方，這個地方確實絕對有達到讓臺鐵在整個歷史建物、在整個文化資產的維護裡面，進而把它變成一個亮點，甚至於後來的林前部長、王前部長也都有再到這個地方，我們也希望這個地方串連整個倉庫的整修，甚至於可以變成一個鐵道文化園區，凸顯整個臺鐵對這個地方的重視，而且它連動的倉庫不只這個舊站體，還有一個新站體嘛！對不對？然後周遭還有滿多是臺鐵的土地，所以這個地方要變成臺鐵的斗南鐵道文化園區，文化部也支持，我們臺鐵現在第一步的作為是什麼？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，據我的了解，現在除了我們斗南舊站的整修以外，其實周遭包括剛剛委員講的倉庫還有一些土地，現在應該比較多是屬於縣政府的，所以要成立一個比較大範圍的文化園區的規劃，我們應該要跟縣政府一起努力。"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦！董事長……"],["杜董事長微：就規劃的方面。"],["劉委員建國：到底規劃的第一步有踏出去了嗎？不然就這麼講嘛！你們的第一步是什麼？就簡單明確答復我就好了。"],["杜董事長微：第一步的話，當然是要去規劃一下它的範圍……"],["劉委員建國：有了嗎？有規劃了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：目前還沒有。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！就從鄭前部長──現在鄭副院長，一直到林佳龍部長、一直到王國材部長，連王國材部長都有去，我記得當時的杜局長也有去過……"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["劉委員建國：對不對？那個地方是屬於你們臺鐵局的，走到新站二樓看過去很大倉庫，那也是臺鐵局的，右邊的土地也是臺鐵局的，火車站的正對面，好像寶雅租的那一塊周遭的土地也都是臺鐵局的，那個腹地何其之大。我們經歷過一個文化部長、兩個前部長，你們到現在規劃的第一步都還沒有。"],["杜董事長微：好，這個我們回去再趕快來進行研議。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！拜託董事長，一個月內給我們第一步的計畫好不好？第一步，我只要求第一步的計畫，就跨出去的計畫就好。"],["杜董事長微：初步的評估作法、設想啦！"],["劉委員建國：OK，一個月內，可以吧？"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["劉委員建國：那就代表剛剛杜董事長在答復陳委員的，確實你在這個地方有做調整，我相信臺鐵今天要跟高鐵讓消費者有所區別，坦白講，臺鐵一定要利用這些文資，這些文資利用得越精緻、越到位，臺鐵越發光發熱，是不是？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。再一點點時間好不好？因為部長新到，我都沒問過他，會對不起他。"],["主席：好，部長，多給你一點時間。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝啦！謝謝陳部長，我們交通部自己的報告是這樣嘛！臺鐵近3年分別於110年有5次、111年有3次重大的行車事故，112年一般事故平均42件，異常事件平均發生是六百餘件，total起來一般加異常就是642件，坦白講平均一天就1.75件的事故了，我不曉得部長對這些大大小小的是故要如何進行檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個數字確實是國人看起來不會很滿意，所以今天報告的第一個重點就是確保安全的部分要先做好，第二才是提升服務品質，這個部分其實我看臺鐵有相當多的計畫在處理安全的議題。不過我認為橫向的聯繫跟橫向的討論可能還不太足夠，這個部分我們正在整合當中，安全的部分很多的計畫都在推行，有點疊床架屋，然後很多的計畫都有點延宕，這個部分我們一項一項拿出來正在檢討跟討論。再來就是安全橫向聯繫的部分，幾個系統該怎麼聯繫起來，這個我們也在努力跟他們討論當中。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長，那個細項很多，因為時間的關係，沒有辦法討論，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：細項非常非常多。"],["劉委員建國：太多了！642件，大致上的歸類，我也沒有說要部長在這邊答復，那在今年1月到7月一般加異常事故已經累計幾件了？部長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您在這上面有寫，是551件。"],["劉委員建國：有551件，你看從1到7月就已經551件，現在已經10月了，我們手上沒有8月和9月的資料，顯然已經超越112年了，這個有很大的問題啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們認為它的穩定性確實是要加強，尤其是在公司化之後，我們是希望公司化之後效率要提升，如果公司化之後效率又更低，那當然是不好，有幾個方面要處理，一方面就是我剛才講的那些計畫要好好的進行；第二，其實我有發現臺鐵在近一、兩年裡面人才的流失是一個問題，所以這個部分我們正在努力，在留才的部分怎麼樣讓他的薪資能提高，怎麼樣讓他的工作環境能夠更好，讓人才能夠留下來，因為臺鐵很多都是技術面的問題，那如果人才流動得很快速的話，其實對於技術面的保留是不好的。"],["劉委員建國：所以部長知道這個事情就是一個核心的問題，連監察院都有針對臺鐵安全改革執行的這個審核通知事項，有去揭露三缺，我們臺鐵有三缺嘛！對不對？這三缺很清楚，就是缺信心、缺人力、缺法制。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["劉委員建國：我知道目前為止屆齡退休有兩百多位，然後特考上的因故未就職的有一百五十幾位，這個補不進來，補不到位，到時候可能會面臨將近兩千餘人的空缺。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，不是這樣的。"],["劉委員建國：不是這樣，那請說。"],["杜董事長微：我們估計從公司成立一直到今年的年底，包含在1月1號優退的，我們在今年的年底大概會有1,543人調走或退休，就是會離開，但是我們從去年的特考一直延續到今年的從業人員考試，我們一共進用了1,623人，所以人力上是夠的，而且我們在年底之前還會再進用722人。"],["劉委員建國：人力上確定是夠的？"],["杜董事長微：人力是夠，但是委員剛剛……"],["劉委員建國：所以監察院的報告是有問題？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，報告委員，剛剛有一個重點，就是新進來的人我們要怎麼樣能夠讓他留得住，然後讓他的技術能夠趕快提升到這些離開的比較資深……"],["劉委員建國：如果你們留得住，就不會讓監察院講第一個就是缺信心了，這個缺信心的問題要怎麼解決？"],["杜董事長微：對，這個才是重點。"],["劉委員建國：臺鐵的員工都很辛苦，部長跟董事長就是有義務要照顧好他們，對不對？所以這個缺信心在監察院的報告裡面是放在第一項，這是很恐怖的一件事情。"],["杜董事長微：我們會有信心的。"],["劉委員建國：好，對這件事情我們也不希望一般加異常事故會再一直往上提升，在改制之後反而比去年還更多。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這是不對的。"],["劉委員建國：是不是請部長這邊責成在1個月內提一個檢討修正報告給我們做參考，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長，謝謝董事長，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員。","接下來有請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","李坤城委員、李坤城、李坤城委員不在。","目前登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：第一、報告及詢答完畢；第二、委員游顥、黃健豪、林倩綺所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；第三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"p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雨棚現在有一部分已經被拆下來保存在基隆市府那邊有一部分被拆下來保留在鐵道館那邊我知道我看了洪老師的臉書"},{"start":233.913,"end":258.786,"text":"剩下這五塊在後面我們還是很慎重我們有去找文資單位來認定說它是不具文化價值所以才會不在我們文資科或者是企劃處的轄管內那這個部分也跟委員報告了那後面我們如果有這種類似這種就是很有很有紀念保存價值的東西我們會擴大範圍就是我們還是會慎重以對"},{"start":262.628,"end":290.879,"text":"然後盡量能夠在前置作業的時候能夠找到更好的方式來對它做個鑑定看是不是要納到我們的文資保護的這個範圍裡面來執行我剛剛也說我們其實在質詢前我們做過功課我們知道你們有文資科我們也知道你們開始列相關名單但是我覺得尷尬就是像這樣不在你們名單當中但是也有很多人認為它是有文資價值的如同你剛剛說的你們的所謂全面盤點要開展嗎"},{"start":292.6,"end":313.878,"text":"而這個盤點除了在名單上不在名單上的要不要開始收集大家的意見而一旦收集了意見你們也要開始去採認又要跟縣市地方政府合作所以我剛剛其實有明白的問你們是不是因為預算不夠的問題還是人力不夠的問題還是因為相關行政的層級太低導致於董事長您在推行相關業務的時候其實是有遇到困難的"},{"start":314.418,"end":338.408,"text":"我的意思是說立法院絕對支持臺鐵做這樣的事情除了在營業項目然後增加營業額之外讓大家看到臺鐵是一個有能力賺錢的公司但是我們也不要忘記臺灣鐵路文化有非常非常多有特色的而且有記憶亮點的事情需要被保存所以我才想請教董事長你如何更全面性的看待這個事情今天我們需要您公開的承諾跟說明這件事情"},{"start":340.649,"end":361.542,"text":"好那跟委員報告剛剛講到有關於專責的人力這個我們現在公司已經有在禁用我們的從業人員其實我們禁用從業人員其實我們公司很有靈活度的現在在文資課的同仁就不是以前鐵路特考進來的人這裡面有很高學歷而且是專長的"},{"start":362.623,"end":381.889,"text":"好,我們非常開心聽到這個那第二個就是預算預算我們公司成立今年開始我們對於文資這個處理的預算我們都有編到我們的一般建築就是我們自己的預算裡面但是我們還有另外一個規劃就是我盤點好以後我們在115年我們會有一個整體計劃我們打算要"},{"start":387.211,"end":405.898,"text":"就是跟文化部那邊來做一個合作把整個計畫把它做出來那也希望文化部那邊能提供我們協助好 所以聽起來你們會人力上有增補新的人力並且董事長你的承諾是專業的人力那你們有沒有考慮日後跟專家學者在115這個計畫進行之前辦相關的公聽會或座談會"},{"start":409.119,"end":433.331,"text":"因為我剛說一定有很多文資在你們的政策視野中是不在你的想像中但是在專家學者眼中他是有意義的他需要被保留跟需要被討論的是 那個你訂這個計畫是有的好 那我們辦公室也會再持續追蹤我覺得你今天 董事長今天態度非常正向我們也希望後續相關文資議題的討論我們臺鐵可以一直走在這個方向上好 是好 謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1281,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時35分）謝謝主席，有請臺鐵董事長，謝謝。"],["主席：請臺鐵杜董事長。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：董事長午安。快速跟您請教基隆這兩天的案子，你們已經有說了不會拆，會原地保留，但是我想要從個案來談通案，因為我知道臺鐵自己在綜規處底下有成立文資科，在你們2022的新聞裡面也有提到，你們會委請很多專家學者，甚至結合臺鐵各地的志工盤點相關的文化資產，可是屢次看到臺鐵只要是跟文資有關的事情，幾乎是有一個新聞事件，你們就回應一個新聞事件，可是如果綜歸這幾年來，我必須說其實臺鐵對於文資保存這件事情非常地消極，就算現在有了所謂的鐵博籌備處，它都是跟文化部有關，但是臺鐵自己對於現在轄下，不管是硬體或是書面資料，或者是很多大家對於文資的想像，說實話，我相信這可能是在臺鐵轉型之後還來不及立刻面對的議題，但是時間一直在走，這個文資的困境我想董事長心裡面一定也知道不能等，因為說實話它可能瞬間沒有就沒有了，但是如果每一次只是新聞事件發生以後被罵完而已，我會覺得很可惜。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：董事長，所以你可不可以在有限的時間裡面，給我們一個比較全面的承諾？對於現在文資科，要嘛是層級太低，或者是因為法規範的問題，或是因為預算不足的問題，到底是什麼樣的問題，讓臺鐵在文資處理上處於現在這個狀態？日後我們到底可以怎麼做？讓臺鐵的文資這件事情，真的可以在日後變成臺鐵非常重要的一個亮點？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，其實以這個案子來講的話，它沒有在我們文資科跟企劃處的轄內。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道，因為它不在你們的文資名單上。"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我都知道。"],["杜董事長微：在文資名單上的，我們都會依照我們文資科成立的……我們還有訂定很多的辦法去處理。跟委員報告，這個個案其實是原來基隆站的第一跟第二月台……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，董事長，因為我時間有限，我們不要耽誤其他委員的時間。"],["杜董事長微：不好意思。"],["陳委員培瑜：我都說我沒有要從這個個案來看，我要從個案談通案，日後臺鐵對於文資保存的態度，一個是您所說的，它已經在文資名單上的，我相信你們會積極地去維護跟保存，並且結合專家學者，我都相信你們有這個認知，也會有這個態度。但是我要談的是像基隆這件事情，就是因為它不在文資名單上，但是它在很多專家學者眼中是重要的文資，臺鐵對這件事情的態度，所以我剛問，是因為文資科目前的層級太低，導致它預算不足、人力不足，或是法規範不足，導致它沒有辦法好好地做文資保存，還是因為我們大家對於文資的態度、認知不同？還是說這件事情可能根本不在臺鐵這幾年的重要業務內容當中？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，容我講完，基隆這兩個月台的雨棚，其實在前面的過程，我們都有找文化局或是文資局、相關單位、專家學者辦過會勘了，原先有的數跨雨棚，現在有一部分已經被拆下來保存在基隆市府，有一部分被拆下來保留在鐵博館。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道，我看了洪老師的臉書，我都知道了。"],["杜董事長微：剩下這5跨，後面我們還是很慎重，我們有去找文資單位來認定，它是不具文化價值的，所以才會不在我們文資科或者是企劃處的轄管內，這個部分也跟委員報告，後面我們如果有類似這種，就是很有紀念保存價值的東西，我們會擴大範圍，慎重以對，然後儘量能夠在前置作業的時候找到更好的方式來對它做鑑定，看是不是要納到我們文資保護的範圍裡面來執行。"],["陳委員培瑜：我剛剛也說，我們其實在質詢前做過功課，我們知道你們有文資科，也知道你們有開始列相關名單，但是我覺得尷尬就是像這樣不在你們名單當中，但是也有很多人認為它是有文資價值的，如同你剛剛說的，你們所謂全面盤點要開展嘛！而這個盤點除了在名單上，不在名單上要不要開始蒐集大家的意見？而一旦蒐集了意見，你們也要開始去採認，又要跟縣市地方政府合作。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我剛剛其實有明白的問你們，是不是因為預算不夠的問題，還是人力不夠的問題，還是因為相關行政的層級太低，導致於董事長您在推行相關業務的時候，其實是有遇到困難的？我的意思是說，立法院絕對支持臺鐵做這樣的事情，除了在營業項目，然後增加營業額之外，讓大家看到臺鐵是一個有能力賺錢的公司，但是我們也不要忘記臺灣鐵路文化有非常非常多有特色，而且有記憶亮點的事情需要被保存，所以我才想請教董事長，你如何更全面性的看待這個事情？今天我們需要你公開的承諾跟說明。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，剛剛講到有關於專責的人力，我們現在公司已經有在進用從業人員，其實我們公司進用從業人員很有靈活度，現在在文資科的同仁就不是以前鐵路特考進來的人，這裡面有很高學歷而且是專長的，已經有了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們非常開心聽到這個進展。"],["杜董事長微：第二個就是預算，我們公司成立今年開始，對於文資處理的預算都有編到我們的一般建築，就是我們自己的預算裡面；但是我們還有另外一個規劃，盤點好以後，在115年會有一個整體計畫，我們打算要跟文化部來做合作，把整個計畫做出來，也希望文化部能提供我們協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以聽起來你們人力上會有增補新的人力，並且董事長承諾是專業的人力，那你們有沒有考慮日後跟專家學者在115這個計畫進行之前，辦相關的公聽會或座談會？"],["杜董事長微：有、有、有。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我剛剛說，一定有很多文資在你們的政策視野中，是不在你們想像中，但是在專家學者眼中，它是有意義的、它是需要被保留跟需要被討論的。"],["杜董事長微：是，擬定這個計畫是有的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們辦公室也會再持續追蹤，我覺得董事長今天態度非常正向，我們也希望後續相關文資議題的討論，臺鐵可以一直走在這個方向上。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝董事長，謝謝主席。"],["杜董事長微：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來有請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","接下來有請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63f40efa71c5d8d01c8446428ab222207f36925e9381caa8c4fc858fb4be03f5fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:26:15 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認為不合理啦所以讓我回去跟他們瞭解一下為什麼會對自己的數據是部長你可以回去瞭解可是他們會給你一個答案我叫他們去打行政訴訟哇我跟你說很抱歉行政訴訟這些價值人也打輸了也打輸了也打輸了他們就是認為說因為你們自己不堅持你們的大餅有證據力啊是是是"},{"start":310.67,"end":333.422,"text":"這個部分我是不是跟委員報一下確實警察機關弄的測速雷達跟這個行車紀錄器這兩個這個速度計算各有精度的一個這個要求那剛剛委員也提到就是說那如果說是在國道上面的話那至少還有一個ETC區間的這個速率可以來那ETC也是證明駕駛人比較合理啊"},{"start":334.422,"end":350.881,"text":"在於這個就是說交通違規的處理基本上大概有兩道這個程序第一道先這個申訴那申訴的這個部分是由處罰機關來對監警署所以你們來這個處理那目前處罰機關的一個處理就是比較相信行政機關相信這個行政機關的部分"},{"start":351.321,"end":375.312,"text":"第二道申訴沒有辦法過的時候你講這句話我就不接受啊你相信的是誰的行政機關你們相信的是內政部的行政機關你們是不相信你們自己交通部的行政機關我現在就在生氣這一點你知道嗎我剛剛跟委員報告是還沒講完我說第二道就是打這個行政訴訟那其實像這樣子的東西器材精準度東西應該在第一道申訴制度就要把它處理啦"},{"start":376.112,"end":377.153,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告"},{"start":407.033,"end":422.603,"text":"有來的差不多十幾個,但是在一個賴的群組的自救會有六十幾個這些職業駕駛人基本上,他們都很辛苦,因為他們都刮眉毛他白天還要來立法院陳情,基本上是把他們要休息的時間都消化掉了"},{"start":423.583,"end":450.779,"text":"但是你也知道現在駕駛人他一旦超速違規對於職業駕駛人來傷害多大甚至有很多企業就說你有這樣超速違規一定會替你記點記點落久的時間他就不能開車我覺得這個議題有檢討的空間這個傷害性是非常的大這裡有檢討的空間對然後我現在很氣憤的就是說當我在協調的時候交通部對於自己的技術的準確性是不堅持的"},{"start":452.039,"end":471.006,"text":"卻棄守這一塊直接說那都以車速照相為主這個絕對有檢討的空間啦所以我回去之後會請公路局他們來檢討這件事情建立一個新的處理的機制如果當兩邊的數據不一樣的時候該怎麼處理大家來建立一個機制OK好那對部長希望這件事再面對一下好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1224,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時26分）謝謝主席，是不是有請我們部長？"],["主席：好，交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，想跟你聊一個，雖然是陳情案，不過你過去也是民意代表出身，民意代表在遇到陳情的時候，跟部會溝通難免都會遇到部會有堅持，讓我們在陳情的內容跟部會沒有辦法達到很好的一個共識。我要舉的這一個就是實質上在去年發生的，去年（112年）10月的時候，南下68K的一個地方，國道一有測速照相，然後說密集有很多大型車輛、聯結車超速，超速當然是因為警政署的測速照相機拍攝起來是超速的，但是這些聯結車都舉出他們自己車內的「大餅」，這個大餅就是行車記錄器，大餅（行車記錄器）就是它的速度有跑到哪邊就會做如實的一個刻畫。後來它的行車記錄器呈現的是沒有超速的，結果他就去調GPS，可能是調ETC或者是調GPS，後來也都從它間接的一個距離來看，看起來也不應該有超速，因為它不是個案，累積起來有很多件，所以我就趕緊把這些人邀集過來，然後跟交通部、警政署討論，警政署堅持他們的測速照相機沒有問題，可是交通部對於自己測試合格的行車記錄器，就是大餅，你們卻沒辦法堅持說你們的行車記錄器一定百分之百準確。","這樣就不對了，如果聯結車沒有去加裝行車記錄器的話，你們是會處罰1萬2,000元以上、2萬4,000元以下，你們要求他們這都一定要裝才不會處罰，可是這個行車記錄器在於說一旦他被抓到超速的時候，他要拿出來去證明他沒有超速，結果你跟他說這不採用，要以警政署的為主，這樣看起來，你們交通部很沒堅持，為什麼會這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我自己這樣聽起來，我會覺得對交通部這邊來說，應該要對自己記錄器上面的數字有信心，畢竟我們是用這個在監管跟監理大型的車輛，所謂用大餅來監管他們的車速跟他們的行車狀況……"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！"],["陳部長世凱：所以交通部自己本身當然要對這方面的數據有信心，我這樣聽起來，我是認為交通部應該要堅持這方面的。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，部長，我跟你說，這個大餅就是為了聯結車如果發生事故，然後要來證明說……"],["陳部長世凱：作為確切的一個紀錄。"],["蔡委員易餘：確切你有沒有危險駕駛……"],["陳部長世凱：對，有沒有超速。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以如果要來證明駕駛人有犯罪的時候，它是有證據力的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在倒過來，駕駛人要來證明他沒有違規的時候，哇！沒有證據力，我覺得這好納悶，而且我還有找標準局來討論，標準局也說他很有信心，如果是他們標準局檢驗過的行車記錄器不會有問題，所以這個就存在兩個可能，一個就是測速照相機有問題，一個就是行車記錄器有問題，因為兩個數據差很多，所以我們左右比較，他們就拿ETC來比，當然因為ETC是測間接的速度，可是那個間接時速在10秒鐘的變化，看起來也不可能從90公里馬上拉到110公里，以間接的速度來看不合理。"],["陳部長世凱：不可能的。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以兩個證據佐證起來，是你們交通部的大餅比較強，看起來它比較準，測速照相機比較不準，結果我協調後所有的監理機關全部都撤守，都說以警政署為主，交通部的這個大餅不採納，為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這樣聽起來我也認為不合理，所以讓我回去跟他們了解一下，為什麼會對自己的數據是撤守狀態。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你可以回去了解，可是他們會給你一個答案：「我叫他們去打行政訴訟。」"],["陳部長世凱：沒有人會為了這件事打行政訴訟。"],["蔡委員易餘：我跟你說，很抱歉，行政訴訟這些駕駛人也打輸了。"],["陳部長世凱：也打輸了？"],["蔡委員易餘：也打輸了，他們就是認為因為你們不堅持自己的大餅有證據力啊！"],["林司長福山：這個部分我是不是跟委員補充一下？"],["蔡委員易餘：好，你可以說。"],["林司長福山：確實，警察機關弄的測速雷達跟行車記錄器，這兩個對速度計算各有精度的要求，剛剛委員也提到，如果是在國道上面的話，至少還有一個ETC區間的速率可以來做……"],["蔡委員易餘：ETC也是證明駕駛人比較合理啊。"],["林司長福山：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！"],["林司長福山：在交通違規的處理上，基本上大概有兩道程序，第一道是先申訴，申訴的這個部分是由處罰機關來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，監理所，所以你們……"],["林司長福山：目前處罰機關的處理就是行政機關比較相信行政機關的部分。第二道，申訴沒有辦法過的時候……"],["蔡委員易餘：你說這句話我就不接受了，你相信的是哪個行政機關？你們相信的是內政部的行政機關，你們是不相信你們交通部自己的行政機關欸！我現在就在生氣這一點，你知道嗎？"],["林司長福山：我剛剛跟委員報告的還沒講完，我說第二道就是打行政訴訟，其實像這樣子的東西，器材精準度應該在第一道申訴制度就要處理了。"],["蔡委員易餘：你現在這樣講，我越聽越生氣，我在協調的時候，你說請他們去打官司！"],["林司長福山：委員，我現在要講的部分就是，這個部分我們跟公路局會跟處罰機關建立一個……"],["蔡委員易餘：這件事你們可以去了解啦，因為……"],["林司長福山：建立一個像這種用第三方，譬如像ETC資料來做一個客觀參考的部分，然後講真的，確實沒有發生違規的部分就應該由處罰機關本於權責撤銷。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我跟你說，當時來跟我陳請的差不多有十幾個，但是在一個LINE群組的自救會有六十幾個，這些職業駕駛人基本上都很辛苦，因為他們都趕夜車，他白天還要來立法院陳請，基本上是把他們要休息的時間都消耗掉。但是你也知道，現在駕駛人一旦超速違規，對於職業駕駛人來說傷害有多大，甚至有很多企業對於超速違規，等於是將你記點，記點下去，他就有多久時間不能開車。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得這個議題有檢討的空間。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個傷害性是非常地大！"],["陳部長世凱：這個有檢討的空間。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，然後我現在很氣憤的就是，當我在協調的時候，交通部對於自己的技術準確性是不堅持的，棄守這一塊，直接都說以測速照相為主。"],["陳部長世凱：這絕對有檢討的空間，我回去之後會請公路局來檢討這件事情。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。"],["陳部長世凱：建立一個新的處理機制，當兩邊的數據不一樣的時候該怎麼處理，大家來建立一個機制。"],["蔡委員易餘：OK，部長，希望這件事再面對一下，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。交通部針對這個部分是真的要好好研究一下，因為剛剛蔡委員特別說大餅上面沒有日期，可是現在電腦科技發展到這樣，你這個餅放進去上面就要標註日期，是哪一個人開的應該要有一些……"],["蔡委員易餘：不是沒有日期，他是說準確性不夠……"],["主席：好，那交通部就好好研究一下，到底準不準……"],["蔡委員易餘：他說準確性不夠，現在還有電子大餅，可是電子大餅他們也是不採納，最後都棄守了，反正就是以測速照相機為準，不合理的地方在這裡。"],["主席：好，好好研究，給蔡委員跟關心的駕駛一個答案。","接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","接下來有請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/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邀請部長社會部嗎那個交通部交通部陳部長"},{"start":20.629,"end":45.468,"text":"部長好那省紀部呢日前他有發布了一個2023年臺鐵霧點的次數的一個統計有超過了143萬次那發生的這個發生率呢是達到了兩成多20.4%那所以在這樣的情況之下呢我們看到霧點機率甚至比2022年還要高"},{"start":47.489,"end":50.35,"text":"臺鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":58.188,"end":80.544,"text":"有高於50%所以顯現我們霧點偏高的情況是有需要做檢討的但是當提出了這樣子臺鐵是說部長您注意聽他是說現行國際標準為列車到達終點站要延誤5分鐘以內才被列為準點列車"},{"start":82.165,"end":103.239,"text":"但是省紀部以誤點延誤的超過一分鐘來計算所以如此的這樣的一個情況本需要請教部長也就是你認為我們臺鐵這樣的一個情況是不是我們應該要滾動式的檢討去改善它的誤點率請教"},{"start":104.275,"end":124.296,"text":"報告委員您所講的這個數據在我上任的第一天臺鐵就跟我說霧點綠的這個時間在國際上是算五分鐘那我第一個感受也會跟您一樣會覺得那也算五分鐘所以我也特別問了說有哪些國家是認定是五分鐘結果我問起來應該是大部分的國家都是絕大部分的國家都是以五分鐘作為霧點綠的計算所以會跟審計部的數字"},{"start":126.758,"end":154.044,"text":"有點不太一樣因為他們的目前今年的準點率如果扣掉天災的話應該有到97點多但委員跟你們報告我第一天上任搭臺鐵到台中那一天剛好延遲了5分鐘下車媒體們問的第一個問題就是說部長請問你搭的臺鐵那個延遲5分鐘你什麼感受那我就說嗯那個以他們給我的數據這還算在準點率裡面那天其實是4分鐘不是5分鐘"},{"start":154.904,"end":184.198,"text":"那還是算在準點率裡面但我覺得臺鐵還可以再加強因為現在大家搭高鐵搭得很習慣高鐵的時間非常的精準我希望它可以前進到跟高鐵一樣的水準部長還好你一個但還要再加強當然要還好你講這一句不然前面聽的我心驚驚因為我再要給你一個數字政府一直鼓勵我們再減碳那麼政府要鼓勵民眾搭乘這個大眾交通工具呢那推行T-pass"},{"start":184.898,"end":211.018,"text":"那政策上錄到現在我們大概有768.8萬人士在加值購買這個通勤月票對不對這是我們政府鼓勵人家的那如果污點那麼高機率那麼高那跟政府的美意他就要打折啦所以你剛才說的我們拿出這個議題民眾是希望讓他能夠便利能夠準時在這樣的一個情況之下我們還是有滾動式檢討"},{"start":212.679,"end":218.264,"text":"的空間,對不對?那你們去檢討好不好?那多久時間可以告訴本席呢?你們去檢討你們的方案,你給社會大眾知道你光是踢趴子的就有將近要800萬人,你要讓他們安心啊!好,你什麼時候可以告訴本席?多久時間告訴本席?你的方案怎麼去精準?"},{"start":238.542,"end":242.703,"text":"是我們我們沒關係你告訴我時間部長多久時間兩週內兩個禮拜內將我們怎麼樣霧點的距離降低怎麼樣這個時間可以整點的方案精進兩個禮拜內給本席以讓我們大眾運輸的這些乘客他都能夠放心這是政府應當要做的兩個禮拜那接下來本席要請教15歲少年那麼開車出車禍了"},{"start":265.448,"end":276.639,"text":"造成3個人死亡,讓各界引起關注,未成年無照駕駛數量平均每年有多少件?4.3萬件"},{"start":280.402,"end":307.995,"text":"那麼我們臺灣現有的罰則那麼僅有罰款、扣車牌那對於整個經濟條件的優異的犯罪者他的懲罰效果是非常的薄弱的而且發生這樣的事情引起社會的嘩然我相信部長你也非常的難過那難過之餘我們政府有什麼樣的因應方案每一年有四萬三千件這最近這五年來的一個統計"},{"start":309.296,"end":327.644,"text":"讓我們很憂心所以本席要請教如果以目前的處理方式他是這麼的薄弱那請教部長你是不是認同我國可以無照駕駛的這個法則有檢討的空間有沒有檢討的空間法則的部分在去年有加重過一次"},{"start":327.984,"end":340.854,"text":"好 但是現在社會還希望他再繼續加重這個部分我們會繼續所以是不是有檢討的空間有 有檢討的空間有檢討的空間然後接下來本席要具體跟你建議你應該可以參考日本的做法他加入什麼角質"},{"start":344.879,"end":371.398,"text":"輔導措施來降低無照駕駛的發生率這個非常重要因為你再怎麼樣提高它還是發生所以在這樣的情況之下你必須要加入其他的元素參考其他世界各國本局具體建議我提出的是日本的方式加入了角質跟輔導措施預防重瘀治療去告訴他們無照你不能開車那麼其他國家還有其他的方式"},{"start":371.858,"end":389.489,"text":"你是不是成立一個專案將世界各國無照駕駛的方案怎麼去要去圍堵罰車也好那麼你去做一個專案好嗎這個非常重要多久時間可以告訴我們四位大眾我們來研究一下各國的方案那你剛才多久時間可以告訴本席"},{"start":390.205,"end":410.817,"text":"一個月的時間好不好一個月內你將世界各國我就已經提出日本給你做參考他們甚至連綠房都加入了我們必須要如此做就正如你說的我們去年提高他還是一樣這樣子生命誠可貴這不行的好不好一個月內提出這個監禁方案最後一個議題大客車國道大型車的事故頻繁"},{"start":415.2,"end":431.488,"text":"他不只是生命安全的一個風險他也是財產的一個損失那麼受影響在國道上面車流也會增加我們的社會成本我們經常一整排又停在那邊動彈不擇在這樣的情況之下本席給你數字"},{"start":432.728,"end":452.129,"text":"截至今年10月17日開始,我們國道已經發生54件死亡的車禍,大型載重車如大貨車、連結車17件。它的佔比是32%,造勢原因是什麼?分心疲勞駕駛,有11件耶!它這樣子的一個分心疲勞駕駛是佔了65%!"},{"start":455.592,"end":470.991,"text":"部長你看到這個數字心驚膽跳啊所以在這樣的一個情況之下本市長要請教你交通部應該具體的去有對策來降低我們國道的這個事故你要怎麼做啊"},{"start":471.611,"end":499.953,"text":"針對這個議題我們最近也有關注到所以我們有特別請高工局跟公路局針對大型車輛的這個運行的過程當中在監理的手段我們可以做什麼樣的工作可以來減少這樣的可能性發生所以目前已經正在討論當中尤其分心疲勞駕駛這一點非常重要佔了65%所以你就精進這個方案也是給社會大眾了解那多久時間可以告訴本席呢"},{"start":500.756,"end":501.62,"text":"一個月時間一樣一個月齁那加油謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1162,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時17分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：數位部嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：交通部。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。審計部日前它有發布了一個2023年臺鐵誤點次數的一個統計，有超過了143萬次，發生率是達到了兩成多，20.4%，在這樣的情況之下，誤點機率甚至比2022年還要高，所以連新購的自強號列車也被點出有5個車次誤點，發生率高於50%，顯示我們誤點偏高的情況是有需要做檢討的，但是當提出了這樣子，臺鐵是說，部長你注意聽到，它是說現行國際標準為列車到達終點站要延誤5分鐘以內才被列為準點列車，但是審計部以延誤超過1分鐘來計算，這樣的情況，本席要請教部長，你認為臺鐵是不是應該要滾動式的檢討，去改善它的誤點率？請教。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所講的這個數據，在我上任的第一天，臺鐵就跟我說誤點率的時間在國際上是算5分鐘，我第一個感受也會跟您一樣，會覺得怎麼會算5分鐘，所以我也特別問了有哪些國家認定是5分鐘，結果我問起來應該是大部分的國家，絕大部分的國家都是以5分鐘作為誤點率的計算，所以會跟審計部的數字有點不太一樣，因為他們今年的準點率，如果扣掉天災的話，應該有到九十七點多，但跟委員報告，我第一天上任搭臺鐵到臺中，那天剛好延遲了5分鐘，下車媒體們問的第一個問題就是，部長，請問你搭的臺鐵延遲5分鐘，你有什麼感受？我就說以他們給我的數據，這還算在準點率裡面，那天其實是4分鐘，不是5分鐘，還是算在準點率裡面，但我覺得臺鐵還可以再加強，因為現在大家搭高鐵搭得很習慣，高鐵的時間非常精準，我希望它可以前進到跟高鐵一樣的水準。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，還好你說但還要再加強……"],["陳部長世凱：當然要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你講這一句，不然前面聽得我「心驚驚」……"],["陳部長世凱：不用「驚」，我的感受跟你一樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我要再給你一個數字，政府一直鼓勵我們再減碳，政府也鼓勵民眾搭乘大眾交通工具而推行TPASS，政策上路到現在，我們大概有768.8萬人次在加值購買通勤月票，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是我們政府鼓勵人家的，如果誤點機率那麼高，那政府的美意就要打折了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你剛才說的，我們拿出這個議題，民眾是希望它能夠便利、能夠準時，在這樣的一個情況之下，我們還是有滾動式檢討的空間，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：這個一定要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們去檢討，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是，一定要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間可以告訴本席呢？你們去檢討你們的方案，你給社會大眾知道……"],["陳部長世凱：準點率的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：光TPASS的就將近有800萬人，你要讓他們安心啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對準點率的部分，其實臺鐵已經有方案正在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你什麼時候可以告訴本席？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是近期就跟委員來報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間告訴本席？"],["杜董事長微：報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的方案怎麼去精準？"],["杜董事長微：是，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，你告訴我時間，部長，多久時間？"],["陳部長世凱：兩週內向委員報告。"],["杜董事長微：兩週內。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩個禮拜內，將怎麼樣讓誤點機率降低、怎麼樣讓時間可以準點的精進方案在兩個禮拜內給本席。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：讓大眾運輸的這些乘客都能夠放心，這是政府應當要做的，兩個禮拜提供。","接下來本席要請教，15歲少年開車出車禍，造成3個人死亡，這個引起各界大家的關注，未成年無照駕駛的數量，平均每一年有多少件？部長，你看，4.3萬件。臺灣現有的罰則僅有罰款、扣車牌，對於整個經濟條件優異的犯罪者，他的懲罰效果是非常薄弱的，而且發生這樣的事情，引起社會的譁然，我相信部長也非常的難過……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：難過之餘，我們政府有什麼樣的因應方案？每一年有4萬3,000件，最近這5年來的統計讓我們很憂心，所以本席要請教，如果以目前的處理方式，它是這麼的薄弱，請教部長，你是不是認同我國無照駕駛的罰則可以有檢討的空間？有沒有檢討的空間？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，罰則的部分在去年有加重過一次，但是現在社會還希望它再繼續加重，這個部分我們會繼續來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以是不是有檢討的空間？"],["陳部長世凱：有檢討的空間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有檢討的空間，接下來本席要具體給你建議，你應該可以參考日本的作法，它加入什麼？矯治……"],["陳部長世凱：矯正。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：輔導措施來降低無照駕駛的發生率，這個非常重要……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你再怎麼樣提高，它還是發生，所以在這樣的情況之下，你必須要加入其他的元素，參考其他世界各國，本席具體建議，我提出的是日本的方式，加入了矯治跟輔導措施，預防重於治療，去告訴他們，無照你不能開車。其他國家還有其他的方式，你是不是成立一個專案，參與世界各國無照駕駛的方案看怎麼樣去圍堵，罰則也好，你去做一個專案，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常重要，多久時間可以告訴我們社會大眾？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來研究一下各國的方案，然後來討論一下臺灣的部分要怎麼……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你大概多久時間可以告訴本席？"],["陳部長世凱：一個月的時間，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內，你將世界各國，我就已經提出日本給你做參考，他們甚至連預防都加入了，我們必須要如此做，就誠如你說的，我們去年提高他還是一樣這樣子……"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：生命誠可貴，這不行的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來想辦法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內提出精進方案。","最後一個議題是大客車，國道大型車的事故頻繁，它不只是生命安全的一個風險，它也是財產的一個損失，在國道上面的影響，車流也會增加我們的社會成本，我們經常一整排都停在那邊動彈不得。在這樣的情況之下，本席給你數字，截至今年10月17號，國道已經發生54件死亡車禍，大型載重車如大貨車、聯結車計17件，它的占比是32%，肇事原因是什麼？分心、疲勞駕駛，有11件，這樣子的分心、疲勞駕駛占了65%，部長，你看到這個數字，心驚膽跳。所以在這樣的一個情況之下，本席想要請教你，交通部應該要具體有對策來降低國道事故，你要怎麼做？"],["陳部長世凱：針對這個議題，我們最近也有關注到，所以我們有特別請高公局跟公路局針對大型車輛的運行過程當中，在監理的手段我們可以做什麼樣的工作來減少這樣的可能性發生，所以目前已經正在討論當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：尤其分心、疲勞駕駛，這點非常重要，占了65%，所以你去精進這個方案，也讓社會大眾了解，多久時間可以告訴本席呢？"],["陳部長世凱：一個月時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一樣一個月，加油，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","接下來請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","接下來有請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod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療大樓去年已經落成了，相關的醫療設備我們就要予以補充，包括核磁共振、電腦斷層這個部分，特別是單側的心導管檢查儀，總共大概補助了1億；我們也用醫中計畫來補助一些專科的醫師，同時希望它原來的50床能夠擴展到99床，成為那個地區更大的照顧力量。至於心導管方面，我們會來加強，希望它能夠成為中度級的急救醫院；另外，在公共衛生的護士方面，也會予以加強，特別感謝屏東縣政府協助醫護宿舍的部分，總之，我們會整體來增加它的戰力。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，現在你說的這些都是我們計畫中的事情，但是本席現在要說的是，因為鄉親都會問，這些計畫到底什麼時候可以實現，什麼時候可以讓他們當要做心導管時不需要往後送，這個部分大家都很煩惱，畢竟這是一個救命的醫療服務。"],["邱部長泰源：設備是比較簡單，有時候人力就比較麻煩，而且人力要足，像澎湖醫院有一個醫生就在那裡好幾十年，差不多24小時都……"],["徐委員富癸：所以在這裡才要特別拜託部長，他們有設備，但就是沒有人力，人力要怎麼解決才是問題，你能不能承諾明年中或是明年底要完成？這也是要有一個答案啊！"],["邱部長泰源：醫事司有什麼意見嗎？好，我們會跟醫福會討論，想辦法把人力充實，我現在不敢跟你保證是哪一天，但是我們會用最快的速度來補充心臟方面的人力，因為醫師的調度有時候不是那麼容易，但是既然這個地方有這麼高的需求，我們一定克服萬難，用最快的速度找到心臟科的醫師。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我也是要提醒你，我們恆春不只是居住人口幾十萬而已，一年還有好幾百萬的旅遊人次……"],["邱部長泰源：可能會發生需要馬上處理的事情。"],["徐委員富癸：對，所以你一定要加快時程。"],["邱部長泰源：一定！一定！"],["徐委員富癸：尤其我看到你資料裡面說要明年中完成，這樣才可以讓大家安心，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我全力以赴！我會特別關心這個。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，麻煩也要掌握進度。"],["邱部長泰源：好，相關進度我們會跟委員報告，好不好？"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員，很準時！很讚！接續我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63c387469f86edbf29ea3bc5a9eeba56a836925e9381caa8c4be43c8a959977bea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"13:17:12 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稱是什麼話，那時候你們有說針對我們的臺灣閩南語，因為大家都希望說是臺灣台語，所以用這個名從主人，我們才說如果要用名從主人的說法，大家都說國語，但你們又堅持要用華語，我們只是覺得好像是兩套標準。","還有針對選擇用語的時候，除了考慮講的人的想法，我覺得應該也要在乎臺灣這片土地，聽的感受也必須要兼顧，像河洛語官方建議為臺灣台語，現在有很多客家跟原住民的族群覺得備受威脅，他們擔心一、兩代以後會認為臺澎金馬講的就是河洛語，會扼殺客家語跟原住民語發展的空間，不知道部長有沒有什麼想法？"],["李部長遠：我剛剛有特別強調語言是一種非常自然的發展，比如說，如果你住在一個沒有客家人的地方，住了五十年以後遇到客家人，他告訴你說你是河洛人，他會聽不太懂。我希望不要因為語言造成大家互相害怕變成一個霸權，我希望大家互相欣賞別人的語言，因為每一種語言都有它的美麗，就像我對客家語，我不太會講，可是我幫助客委會做過很多客家音樂劇，我完全不會否定，就是我們去欣賞各種語言……"],["涂委員權吉：我們也是希望多元族群，大家平等平權，語言也是一樣。部長你好像也是客家人對不對？"],["李部長遠：是，但我是不太會講客家話的客家人。"],["涂委員權吉：我們十幾年來推動客語保留跟復興，現任的客委會主委他也很客氣，他說他尊重文化部，其實客委會在110年就有發表他們的意見，建議稱為臺灣閩南語，現在也有很多客家大老跟原住民族群都不希望台語這個詞彙變成一個族群獨占，讓臺灣的台語變成臺灣的代表，所以希望文化部不要只以名從主人的原則當唯一的考量，官方頒定的書面建議用語我們希望能夠取捨，因為這可能造成長遠的影響，不要成為幾代之後扼殺臺灣族群多元語言及多元文化的罪人，希望這一部分部長能夠給我們協助，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是，我希望每一種語言都被尊重，不要像過去那樣子只獨尊華語，然後壓抑所有的語言，語言發展法制定出來就是國家語言，尊重每一種大家在臺灣使用的語言，結果大家都把它討論到是語言的稱呼，我覺得好像有點……原來不是這個意思，原來是我們不能夠獨尊華語這樣的政策。"],["涂委員權吉：對，以目前來講其實並沒有什麼紛爭，沒有必要刻意去推動臺灣台語，造成族群之間彼此和諧的問題，所以我們一直認為多元族群尊重其歷史文化、多元語言、多元文化、平等平權，我覺得這是最重要的，好不好？"],["李部長遠：站在文化部的立場，我會儘量推動對所有語言非常公平的對待。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員，部長請回座。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另外有高金素梅委員、楊瓊瓔委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"156019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63e036b240939240ac5d49a24f4c608aef36925e9381caa8c461cd8283283c7cb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"13:12:16 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因為他既然都在表24當中其實就不應該被讀漏嘛因為他也是在這個表24的所有的醫護人員的這個範圍之內嘛那這個部分我們最快什麼時候可以知道"},{"start":385.773,"end":404.226,"text":"10月底之後我們陸陸續續可能也要給校戶們他們有一些期待啊畢竟他們的工作量是非常非常的重啊但是在這個人力的配置的部分我們可能回教育部我們再來質詢所以這部分我們初步得到了教育部這邊10月底之前會彙整整個所有地方政府的"},{"start":404.906,"end":404.946,"text":"謝謝郭委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1510,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（13時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長還有教育部司長，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長好、司長好，我今天不會占用太多時間，我剛剛看大家都很辛苦，每個人都有超時，是不是？","我主要想讓大家知道臺灣醫護荒的問題，其實可以歸納出以下的狀況，包含人力資源的不足，再來就是工作環境。對於人力不足、工作環境還有待遇加給，我們知道9月30號人事行政總處有徵詢各個機關部會的會議，9月30號已經有達成一點共識；10月17號，如果沒記錯是在10月17號，表二十四已經送交行政院，目前在爭取醫護人員的加給，也已經進入時程當中了。","我今天比較想要知道的是，這個表二十四當中……其實剛剛非常謝謝培瑜委員特別提到了剴剴案，關於剴剴案，從上一個會期到這個會期我大概質詢了8次，主要是因為在還沒有更改隸屬之前，其實其中一個主管機關是教育部，所以我質詢了很多次。同樣這部分我要再來問一下，表二十四當中包含公立醫療院所的各式醫事人員，另外也包含公立學校，但為什麼我要特別把公立學校圈起來，再加一個問號？是關於校護，很多人都沒有特別注意到校護，我想要請教一下部長，你知道這五年當中，校園光是自傷、自殺的人數比例增加幾倍？您知道這個數據嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：確實的數字我不知道。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒關係，我回答。5到10倍，已經暴增了5到10倍，前幾年是7倍，現在是5到10倍，也就是校護的工作繁重，他們面臨1個人要負責大概1,000個學校的人員，不管是自殺、自傷、被霸凌、傷害、受傷，其實大家認為校護人員的工作好像沒有醫護人員這麼忙，錯了！我們看到很多第一線在學校服務的校護人員，他們面臨了身心上的壓力，碰到孩子們從樓上掉下來之後，他們是第一線緊急處理，但往往因為人力的配置……這也是另外一個問題，我們到質詢教育部時再來好好討論。","我現在想要知道的是，醫事人員的加給已經送行政院爭取當中，公立學校的校護人員有沒有被獨漏？到底他們的主管機關是誰？是今天在這個地方的衛福部？還是教育部？還是只要掛上學校兩個字就變成教育部？因為兩位都在嘛，我們是不是把主管機關的分配講好、講清楚，到底校護人員歸誰管？"],["邱部長泰源：我先報告一下，因為我擔任過臺灣大學保健中心的主任，所以一起工作的校護非常多，的確他們面對了問題和壓力，我當時在討論這些事情的時候，我也覺得應該要關注到公立學校……"],["郭委員昱晴：衛福部長您應該也認為不能有差別待遇嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我個人比較傾向這樣子，這部分也要請教育部來協助。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，來聽教育部的說法，因為教育部10月15號有說：我們可能還要再彙整一下，問一下地方。比方說這裡有一個公文是給雲林縣，還要彙整地方，可是就我剛剛講的時間序9月30號到10月17號，這中間其實是有很多時間可以跟衛福部來溝通這一塊，校護人員的加給要如何納入？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，因為校護是依照學校衛生法來設置的，所以屬於教育部主管的範圍，不過過去在待遇部分，公立學校的校護都是比照公立醫療院所的醫事人員，過去都這樣，將來在方向上也應該是朝這個方向來做努力。不過就如剛剛講的，關於校護的任用，他們的薪資酬勞待遇主要來自於地方政府的預算，這部分確實目前在徵詢地方政府的意見當中，應該近期內就會完成彙整。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們白話一點來講，也要徵詢地方政府有沒有這個預算跟財源。"],["吳司長林輝：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果彙整之後發現地方政府沒錢，請問教育部，這部分可以補上嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：這部分我們會回去跟部長報告，看看部裡頭用怎麼樣的方式來協助地方政府。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以現在我們得到了一個初步的答案，校護的加給要先知道地方政府的財源狀況？"],["吳司長林輝：應該說過去公立學校的校護跟公立醫療院所醫事人員待遇是一樣的，將來應該也是朝這個方向去做，所以我想調整時要做整體思考，蒐集地方的意見，將來呈報給行政院做整體考慮。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，既然他們都在表二十四當中，就不應該被獨漏嘛，因為他們也是在表二十四中的醫護人員範圍之內，我們最快大概什麼時候可以知道？"],["吳司長林輝：應該在10月底前，地方的意見就會蒐集完成。"],["郭委員昱晴：10月底之前？"],["吳司長林輝：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，10月底之後，可能陸陸續續……也要給校護們一些期待，畢竟他們的工作量非常非常的重。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是在人力配置的部分，可能回頭再向教育部質詢。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我初步得到教育部這邊的意見，10月底之前會彙整所有地方政府的回應，然後再函請教育部，是這樣嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：我們彙整完，會送回行政院做整體政策的審查。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，希望校護不要被獨漏了，好嗎？謝謝兩位。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝部長、司長。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接續請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63d46bb1d833163fa28446428ab222207f36925e9381caa8c439c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:08:46 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那我們看其中這個媒體他就有下一頁其中媒體他就有去訪問他講說其實如果說我們現在全台灣有ETC也有很多的一個繳費的地方各縣市警局打擊犯罪也都有側排辨識的監視器系統"},{"start":69.989,"end":71.89,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就 «我國軌道建設執行概況》進二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長"},{"start":89.929,"end":107.21,"text":"假車牌的狀況給揪出來部長您覺得勒我覺得這個方法是可以進入討論那這個部分我們也可以來跟這個執法單位現在執法單位是內政部警政署那這個部分我們來跟他們溝通ETC高速公路上面的ETC應該是廠商吧"},{"start":111.312,"end":126.198,"text":"主要的資料會來自於交通部但有個問題就是說各支的部分會不會有影響到這個我們來研究一下如果在不影響的狀況底下我們來跟執法單位也好或者是所謂的ETC的ETEC有裝停車場的或者高速公路上面的我們來討論這個可能性"},{"start":127.798,"end":149.779,"text":"說今天有很多的車牌他可能有重複的我之前也聽過警界的朋友跟我講他講是說其實他們也有系統是針對假設這一個車牌號碼他出現在台北但是同時間也出現在高雄他就不可能說一個車牌號碼出現在兩個地方那就一定是有一個車牌是假的"},{"start":150.279,"end":171.305,"text":"那他就會把它列為是警示的號碼那一樣的道理嘛現在的做法其實有這樣做而且現在抓到的假車牌大部分就是這個樣子在高速公路上面跑的來 那我們上一頁所以部長就應該不會存在說如果說他已經被扣管沒有監管然後他再買原車牌來趴趴走的問題啊"},{"start":172.405,"end":190.803,"text":"照理講你不應該出現這個狀況所以我只點出來因為假車牌方方面面包括說你們要講是說要新的車牌要防偽但是你只有明年上市的車牌防偽可是你現有的車牌沒有防偽那還是一樣沒有辦法控管到90%現有在市面上的車牌嗎"},{"start":191.403,"end":214.574,"text":"以及道路處罰條例我們是不是應該加重刑責是不是應該沒路車輛等等的我們都應該討論但我是說至少看到問題我們要來處理問題所以部長這可以研議什麼時候能夠告訴國人說你們有進一步的一個動作我們盡快跟執法單位來研議看未來的執法面時間會來研議看要怎麼樣讓它執法的落實更好那我們是不是兩個禮拜開個會可以吧"},{"start":215.76,"end":239.625,"text":"跟委員報告一下是不是給公務局一個月的時間因為跟這個委員報告這裡面包括跨機關包括這個一個月內研理相關的辦法用科技的方式來減輕我們警務同仁的一個業務量但是又能夠抓出來假車牌好嗎讓這個公務那個公路局他們趕快去找執法單位好跟警政署來協商開會好"},{"start":240.985,"end":257.111,"text":"路政司、公路局、高工局可能都需要好不好來再來請教部長有沒有注意到萬聖節要到了那今天早上北捷有個新聞啊他講說拒絕太暴露血腥恐怖者的服裝上大眾運輸工具"},{"start":258.351,"end":277.752,"text":"我覺得這個在其他民主國家也有類似我印象中日本然後韓國他幾個部分第一造成恐慌啊譬如說他如果說這個都滿臉是血啦什麼可能會讓人家誤會恐慌大眾運輸那有一些是他的衣服相對來講太暴露所以說北捷已經先喊了"},{"start":278.712,"end":307.612,"text":"說大眾運輸如果說萬聖節變裝的話太暴露血腥恐怖者要拒絕載那如果說你還硬要進來的話最高罰7500塊那我想請教交通部省委主管機關臺鐵、高鐵以及我們相關單位有沒有要做相關的一個不然有可能他從外縣市坐高鐵來臺北可以然後就下了轉成決定不行這樣也有點奇怪啊大眾運輸應該就是要一體啊"},{"start":308.479,"end":335.17,"text":"部長您的看法呢委員您提醒的這個我也覺得蠻重要的如果真的太過血腥或者太過暴露或者是大家看了會不舒服的畫面在萬聖節的過程有時候會發生那在公共運輸的運具上面也會造成大家的困擾尤其有時候在之前有發生過一些比較不幸的事件大家會害怕是的我覺得這個確實是應該要討論所以在高鐵跟台鐵的部分我會請他們來研究這個問題因為萬聖節要到了如果我印象沒錯應該是這禮拜嘛"},{"start":336.551,"end":349.684,"text":"是所以我們就趕快來研議這個問題而且可能還是要有一個標準不然的話我覺得上有政策下有對策到之後我們第一線的同仁可能也會很難認定到底你的標準是標準還是什麼部分是"},{"start":350.424,"end":368.351,"text":"大家認定的部分應該會差不多啦我們也會跟北捷來討論也參考北捷的經驗他的經驗跟他的標準因為現在北捷已經說了就是他要開罰巨債那其他的大眾運輸我也希望是說我們國家不要說一國多製的概念最後部長一分鐘啦"},{"start":369.571,"end":386.645,"text":"之前葉元智委員有質詢關於太阪輕軌那本席一方面泰山一方面葉元智委員是板橋所以他其實橫跨我跟葉元智委員的選區那我們也都非常的關心尤其我也知道新北市府他送了三次給我們鐵道局但是都被推薦"},{"start":387.446,"end":398.914,"text":"那你也承諾說一個月內會召集相關會議包括新北市政府共同來開會我覺得中央要嚴格把關沒有問題但是一次把問題講清楚比如說ABCDEFG讓"},{"start":401.068,"end":420.566,"text":"執行單位他們一次把這些疑點釐清再送上來不要說今天講ABC送來然後我退回明天講CD送來我退回一次把它給釐清所以這一個月開會現在開會了嗎報告委員他們的報告還沒有送過來那上次葉元之委員講到現在應該一個月了嗎還沒到"},{"start":422.948,"end":449.333,"text":"上一次議員之委員講是說你們一個月內找新北市府的共同來把那個疑點一次講我們已經在召開會議了我們已經在約集會議了已經約了是不是部長本期也拜託因為除了太阪輕軌被退三次以外巴黎輕軌也有被推薦還有我們包括本期選區裡面我們也希望能夠爭取林口歸山的這個跨縣市的輕軌"},{"start":450.473,"end":468.952,"text":"那未來這是不是能夠都比照辦理相關的這種流程我要說要求的是鐵道局一次把疑點給釐清讓地方政府能夠去補相關的一個資料不要說這一次挑三個下一次挑四個那永遠都是在攻防往返啊"},{"start":469.412,"end":470.472,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1107,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時9分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席跟我們召委以及很多委員都很關心這個假車牌的事件，尤其假車牌現在非常氾濫，今天又看到一個新的新聞，它說扣牌沒有監管，買原車號，假牌趴趴走，這是什麼樣的情況？就是說他的牌可能被扣了，扣完之後，他就直接上網去訂一樣的號碼，因為一樣的號碼，如果被警方查到的時候，車型一樣，這個車主、行照什麼都一樣，很有可能就被魚目混珠混過了，但是他其實是被扣牌的，所以這就變成是一個漏洞。那我們看，媒體就有去訪問，它講其實如果我們現在全臺灣有ETC，也有很多繳費的地方，各縣市警局打擊犯罪也都有車牌辨識監視器系統，如果在扣牌的時候，就可以把這一組的車牌號碼列為它已經扣牌的資料庫，那之後如果又看到這樣的一個號碼在車路上跑，譬如高速公路上ETC扣點，馬上可能就警示出來了，我覺得這樣子就是用科技執法來輔佐，把假車牌的狀況給揪出來，部長您覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得這個方法是可以進入討論，這個部分我們也可以來跟執法單位，現在執法單位是內政部警政署，這個部分我們還在跟它們溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：ETC呢？"],["陳部長世凱：高速公路上面的ETC在高公局。"],["洪委員孟楷：高公局，是啊！"],["陳部長世凱：主要的資料會來自於交通部，但有個問題就是個資的部分會不會有影響到，這個我們來研究一下，如果在不影響的狀況底下，我們來跟執法單位也好，或者是所謂的ETC的eTag，有裝停車場的，或者高速公路上面的，我們來討論這個可能性。"],["洪委員孟楷：應該這麼說，今天有很多的車牌，可能有重複的，我之前也聽過警界的朋友跟我講，他講其實他們也有系統是針對假設這一個車牌號碼它出現在臺北，但是同時間也出現在高雄，不可能一個車牌號碼出現在兩個地方，那就一定是有一個車牌是假的，系統就會把它列為警示的號碼。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：一樣的道理。"],["陳部長世凱：現在的做法其實有這樣做。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那一樣的道理。"],["陳部長世凱：而且現在抓到的假車牌大部分就是這個樣子，在高速公路上面跑的過程當中被抓出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以部長，就應該不會存在如果它已經被扣管卻沒有監管，然後他再買原車牌來趴趴走的問題，照理講你不應該出現這個狀況，所以我只點出來，因為假車牌方方面面，包括你們講新的車牌要防偽，但是你只有說明年上市的車牌防偽，可是你現有的車牌沒有防偽，還是一樣沒有辦法控管到90%現有在市面上的車牌，以及道路處罰條例是不是應該加重刑責、是不是應該沒入車輛等等的，我們都應該討論。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們已經在討論了。"],["洪委員孟楷：我是說至少看到問題，我們要來處理問題，所以部長這可以研議，什麼時候能夠告訴國人你們有進一步的一個動作？"],["陳部長世凱：我們儘快跟執法單位來研議，未來的執法面跨部會來研議，看要怎麼樣讓它執法的落實更好。"],["洪委員孟楷：多久時間可以？"],["陳部長世凱：那我們是不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜開個會可以吧！"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，是不是給公路局一個月的時間，因為跟這個委員報告，這裡面包括跨機關，包括這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月內研擬相關的辦法，用科技的方式來減輕我們警務同仁的業務量，但是又能夠抓出假車牌好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：一個月內讓公路局他們趕快去找執法單位跟警政署來協商開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，路政司、公路局、高公局可能都需要。再來請教，部長有沒有注意到萬聖節要到了，今天早上北捷有個新聞，它拒絕太暴露、血腥或恐怖者的服裝上大眾運輸工具，我覺得這在其他民主國家也有類似的情況，我印象中日本或韓國，幾個部分，第一、造成恐慌，譬如他如果滿臉是血什麼的，可能會讓人家誤會、恐慌；有一些是他的衣服相對來講太暴露，所以北捷已經先喊了，說大眾運輸如果萬聖節變裝的話，太暴露、血腥或恐怖者要拒絕載，如果你還硬要進來的話，最高罰7,500元，我想請教交通部身為主管機關，臺鐵、高鐵以及我們相關單位，不然有可能他從外縣市坐高鐵來臺北可以，然後轉乘捷運不行，這樣有點奇怪，大眾運輸應該就是要一體的，部長，您的看法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：委員您提醒的這個，我也覺得蠻重要的，如果真的太過血腥或者太過暴露，或者是大家看了會不舒服的畫面，在萬聖節的過程有時候會發生，在公共運輸的運具上面也會造成大家的困擾，尤其在之前有發生過一些比較不幸的事件，大家會害怕，我覺得這個確實是應該要討論，所以在高鐵跟臺鐵的部分，我會請他們來研究這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為萬聖節要到了，如果我印象沒錯應該是這禮拜。"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以我們就趕快來研議這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：而且可能還是要有一個標準。"],["陳部長世凱：因為那是認定上的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：不然的話，我覺得上有政策、下有對策，到最後我們第一線的同仁可能也會很難認定，到底你的標準是標準還是什麼。"],["陳部長世凱：是，大家認定的部分應該會差不多啦！我們也會跟北捷來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：也參考北捷的經驗。"],["陳部長世凱：它的經驗跟它的標準是什麼。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為現在北捷已經說了，就是它要開罰拒載，其他的大眾運輸，我也希望我們國家不要說一國多制的概念。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，部長，1分鐘，之前葉元之委員有質詢關於泰板輕軌，一方面本席是泰山，一方面葉元之委員是板橋，所以其實是橫跨我跟葉元之委員的選區，我們也都非常的關心，尤其我也知道新北市府，它送了3次給鐵道局，但都被退件，你也承諾1個月內會召集相關會議，包括新北市政府共同來開會，我覺得中央要嚴格把關沒有問題，但是一次把問題講清楚，譬如ABCDEFG，讓執行單位它們一次把這些疑點釐清再送上來，不要今天講ABC送來，然後退回，明天講CD送來，我退回，一次把它給釐清，所以這1個月開會，現在開會了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他們的報告還沒有送過來，上次葉元之委員講到現在應該1個月了嗎？還沒到。"],["洪委員孟楷：上一次葉元之委員講是說你們一個月內找新北市府，大家一起來，把疑點一次講。"],["陳部長世凱：是，但是現在應該已經召開會議了，我們已經在約集會議了，這個部分已經在約了。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經約了是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：已經約了。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席也拜託，因為除了泰板輕軌被退3次以外，八里輕軌也有被退件，還有包括本席選區裡面，我們也希望能夠爭取林口龜山跨縣市的輕軌，未來是不是能夠都比照辦理？"],["陳部長世凱：沒關係，我們一個案一個案來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：相關的這種流程，我所要求的是鐵道局一次把疑點給釐清，讓地方政府能夠去補相關的資料，不要這一次挑3個，下一次挑4個，永遠都是在公文往返。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們一個案一個案來討論，這個沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是輕軌建設，我們一起努力，好不好？因為這個真的不只是市民的期待，也是跨縣市的期待，也是生活圈交通更繁榮的一個期待，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長知道禮拜五你要來本席的淡江大橋，來看這個……"],["陳部長世凱：上次我們在那邊有一次，這是第二次。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，歡迎部長來淡水，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63be490ca03abf3db88446428ab222207f36925e9381caa8c489e2bfcd57ebc68f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"13:00:55 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祖密不是應該有來嗎對"},{"start":434.202,"end":458.083,"text":"時間關係我也不要佔用太多那主秘我跟您這邊提出這樣一個問題那也請你們給本席一個報告好不好那剛才本席提了幾個議題跟問題那希望交通部這邊從交通部的高度給本席所提的永續的一個推動很具體的一個報告回應那兩個禮拜可以嗎可以喔好好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1066,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（13時1分）謝謝主席，我這邊有請交通部長及相關的單位。"],["主席：交通部陳部長，還有嗎？要我推薦嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：等等我也會提到啦！不過可能在路政各方面……","因為今天的主題訂得很好，牽扯到的相關單位也不少，如果有單位有提到的，就請相關單位也上來做一下部長的backup。","部長你好，我們上禮拜的見過，在上個禮拜的總質詢，本席其實跟您提到，今天不僅是討論交通議題，本席對於整個交通議題背後的永續發展非常的重視，希望這次質詢我們可以就這個部分做個討論。","不過首先我要先幫原鄉來請命，也就是我這個暑假在豐年祭的時候，我們鄉親跟我談到台9線現在一個戰備跑道，部落這邊有一些反彈，裡面當然很多原因，所以現在就是這個戰備跑道，我知道國防部目前還在談，但是很重要的是我必須要知道目前的進度，因為部落對於這個部分是非常激烈的有意見，所以我們期待這個戰備跑道不會就在沒有好好的溝通、大家都有認同度的情況下，然後被建置了，你們知道在縱谷，你們那個戰機的回音是非常吵人的，本席又是學音樂的，所以對聲音非常的敏感。"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["林委員倩綺：所以非常深刻的可以同理在地的鄉親這樣一個訴求，所以請國防部給我們一個回應，而且讓我們隨時知道你們的進度，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來，我們今天談文資嘛！臺鐵很多的車站其實都具有文資的背景，或者是有文資的身份，目前有一座舊基隆的車站，它在月台及雕花的區塊，最近臺鐵針對這個部分要做一些修整，但引發在地居民的一些反彈，我不知道部長你有沒有去了解，而且您是不是對於鐵鑄雕花的棚架有一些了解？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我對鐵鑄雕花棚架的了解是它已經是一個一百多年的建築，有很多網路上的朋友在講這個很像門司港，九州門司港的那個車站，它上面的棚架是很類似的。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，我相信您應該知道它的價值。"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，我跟臺鐵公司已經研究過了。"],["林委員倩綺：我後面要講的是你們其實應該也跟文化部這邊有一些交流，大概從上次鐵道博物館，一直到未來延伸出來，在這樣整個文物館的建置系統裡面，其實你們應該非常緊密的在開會，結果還會出現這樣的問題，可能有點遺憾。"],["陳部長世凱：所以我們那個棚架有一部分已經在鐵道博物館，有拆除的部分已經在鐵道博物館收藏，已經收藏好了，那另外現場的部分……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，這個部分也就是我接下來要再延伸的一個問題，所以這個部分是不是請你們有一個具體的回應？讓本席知道目前這個case進展到什麼樣的程度。","接下來是文化資產法跟鐵道的一個狀況，也就是目前臺鐵有臺鐵文化保存及活用小組，你們會定期的開會，所以剛才本席在一開始覺得怎麼現在還會出現這個以前文資剛開始在推動時候的狀況，是有點蠻難思議的，但是這個部分，本席其實今天要講的阿里山鐵道，雖然現在在主管單位農業部是占很大的比例，不過裡面有一些遺構跟它現有的一些財產是跟你們有關的，所以待會兩件事情。","本席第一個是要談，有形文化資產跟無形文化資產的一個連結，臺鐵過去在阿里山鐵道，它是整個走阿里山鐵道上去的，但是你們知道這裡面有很多原住民族的部落，可是這樣一個有形的文化資產跟原住民族的無形文化資產的一個連動，我想交通部應該在你們觀光推動小組裡面去把這個部分給連結起來，也就是你們路政司還有公路局應該去檢討這整個的連結是不是可以更活絡，讓大家更能夠連結山上跟部落這樣的一個系統。"],["陳部長世凱：是，就觀光的角度，這個確實是應該要連結起來，然後也跟部落做一個商討，未來應該怎麼發展對觀光的推動會有幫助。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，所以就是你們觀光推動小組的功能應該要再更積極一點。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員倩綺：大家不要互推責任。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["林委員倩綺：因為就如上次我跟部長這邊講，常常你說這不是我的業務，那不是我的業務，但是當我們今天談，就鐵道還有文資這樣一個概念，全臺我們不可能在整個清朝時期，然後一直到日本政府時期，一直到現在，鐵道其實是占了臺灣很大的一個比例，所以在文化資產方面的各種等級都必須特別考量。","阿里山鐵道有一個跟你們有關係的部分是那個車廂，現在大家都在做測試，其中安全係數是一個很嚴重的問題，在安全係數上，過去的森鐵是載木頭，現在森鐵要載旅客，我們知道森鐵經常出一些狀況，這個狀況你們有真正去檢測安全係數的問題嗎？包括車輛的速度、載重、外部環境、氣候、地質，本席就知道大概在上個月又有一個出軌的事件，還好那時候沒有人在車上，所以本席把這個問題反映給你。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是林保署的業務啦！"],["林委員倩綺：是，但是那個車廂是你們的。"],["陳部長世凱：車廂我們要檢查，車廂是我們的，但是我們要負責檢查。"],["林委員倩綺：我要講的一個重點就是同樣的概念，雖然它現在林保署已經把它承接下來，但是過去在鐵道工程部分，不是說你一承接，大家就可以處理這整個系統的介面，所以這就是為什麼本席今天在這邊特別提出來，因為如果有什麼狀況，我們懷疑的還是鐵道。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員倩綺：OK。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員倩綺：最後就是國土計畫法已經要上路了，這個是文化部，新平溪煤礦博物館是臺灣現在唯一僅存的一個煤礦相關的園區，裡面當然也有軌道，本席常去，每去一次就覺得我好像走在未來的歷史當中，我們不知道它的軌道該怎麼辦，然後最重要的是現在國土計畫法要上路了，它就面臨到整個煤礦遺址的存續，這個部分，軌道當然跟這個交通部的交通有關，你們不要跟我講業務範圍，但是很重要的是文化的這個區塊，文化部，不知道你們對於這個部分目前怎麼看待？"],["陳部長世凱：文化部今天應該有在。"],["林委員倩綺：有啊！主秘不是應該有來嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員倩綺：時間關係啦！我也不要占用太多，主秘，我跟您這邊提出這樣一個問題，也請你們給本席一個報告好不好？剛才本席提了幾個議題跟問題，希望交通部從交通部的高度，給本席所提的永續的推動很具體的一個報告回應，兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我來努力。"],["林委員倩綺：可以喔！好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63e66334a79471b6988446428ab222207f36925e9381caa8c407e920e284d7c1245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:54:29 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齡駕駛的管理制度主動了解長者的需求那第二個交通部應該要去提供"},{"start":325.285,"end":348.734,"text":"所謂的車輛安全裝置的補助甚至建立主動繳回的駕照的獎勵補助機制比照我們的日韓這些國家所以就是鼓勵所謂的企業團體像其他國家會有購物的折扣你繳回來的時候有購物的折扣甚至老花眼鏡、助聽器、電動車都有一些折扣甚至銀行的優惠利率可不可以去談這些東西甚至讓保險業加入"},{"start":349.674,"end":369.489,"text":"那最後就是交通部應該持續針對我們偏鄉的公共運輸的供給的普及率跟使用彈性要提供的補助以上麻煩兩週部長這邊可以嗎?好,報告委員您所提的這個建議都蠻多的那這個部分我們盡量來內部先做研議那比較具體的方案兩週內跟您報告好嗎?好,謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1049,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時54分）有請部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["林委員月琴：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：事實上我今天要談的是我們高齡者的交通安全，不過先來談一下無照駕駛，我上個會期質詢過3次了，也開過記者會了，因為它平均每一年大概7萬人，最近內湖的是未成年肇事，然後是三死兩傷，這樣一個傷亡，一個人死亡事實上是1,600萬的成本，受傷是181萬成本，這樣下來，大概我們的社會成本將近千億，所以想問，希望部長在這個會期是不是對於扣車連帶處罰，儘快的有一個對策？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員月琴：這次我主要還是要來談高齡駕駛，今年其實發生了多起的高齡駕駛事故，包含我們立法院提過高齡換照議題的賴士葆委員，還有彰化的姐弟案和文化大學便當店女老闆的案子，都是高齡駕駛肇事產生的傷害。當然個別當事人是不是具有駕駛能力都要經過專業的檢測來判斷，不過，我們還是要去想到，明年度已經進入超高齡社會，對於高齡化趨勢跟衍生的交通問題，請問部長，你們有沒有掌握高齡駕駛的肇事率跟肇事傷亡數據？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分應該都有掌握，肇事率確實在高齡者相對是高的，所以針對他們駕照補照的部分，我們也有一定的規定，要看他的反應、體能等等。"],["林委員月琴：那我們就來看，65歲以上叫高齡，65歲以上高齡駕駛的肇事事件事實上持續創新高，在整體案件當中，從105年的5萬件到112年的8萬件，成長幅度大概六成，案件死亡人數在6年間也成長了三成五。在106年的時候，政府曾經想要解決這個問題，所以推動了高齡換照制度，門檻似乎相較於亞洲地區的其他國家是相對寬鬆的，因為不僅我們年齡比較高，還有在鼓勵主動繳回駕照部分也相對欠缺誘因，但其他國家並不是這樣做。至今事實上還是沒有納管。當初在106年的時候說75歲以上就不要管了，110年交通部就已經知道這個問題，經過調查，有21%有駕車需求，83歲以上的大概有10萬4,000人，難怪今年度高齡駕駛造成別人的傷害事實上也不少。所以我想問一下，我們剛剛講到制度，你的誘因又不高，像83歲以上的駕駛，你又一直沒有去處理，等同於放任這個管理制度的安全漏洞，想問部長，主動關懷、鼓勵有用嗎？這是交通部自己寫的，鼓勵、關懷這些人，他就是有駕車需求啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們的關懷是這樣子，看他們的家人可不可以協助他行的需求，這第一個；第二，如果可以協助他的話，看可不可以把駕照給繳回，就是希望他能夠不要開車，但如果真的有需求，那也還真的沒有辦法。"],["林委員月琴：部長，可不可以有更積極的作法？因為今天高齡駕駛就已經造成他人的傷亡，也有可能造成自己傷亡。75歲以上超高齡駕駛的交通事故，在限制之後還是持續成長，而且6年間成長一倍，受傷人數也成長了四成。所以我覺得交通部不能對這種漏洞視而不見，因為我們明年就即將進入超高齡社會。交通部也應該清楚，我們除了自用車以外，對長者來講，大概就是搭大眾交通運輸工具，可是我們非常不友善，全國的22個縣市有17個縣市都還不到10%，整個偏鄉的公共運輸涵蓋率，去年的資料也顯示尚未達標，有些原鄉跟偏鄉處於無車可搭的狀況，利用率跟使用率都非常的低，也導致有時候看得到可是吃不到，以臺東為例，雖然擁有全國最多的幸福巴士路線，整體利用率31.92%，空駛率事實上是25.93%，我覺得要拿出一些對策來。所以我在這邊提醒交通部，是不是兩週內可以提供我這樣的資料？第一、交通部是不是應該針對超高齡的駕駛人，納入高齡駕駛的管理制度，主動了解長者的需求？第二，交通部應該要提供所謂的車輛安全裝置的補助，甚至建立主動繳回駕照的獎勵補助機制，比照日韓這些國家，所以就是鼓勵企業團體，像其他國家會有購物的折扣，你繳回來就有購物折扣，甚至老花眼鏡、助聽器、電動車都有一些折扣，甚至銀行的優惠率，可不可以去談這些東西，甚至讓保險業加入。","最後就是交通部應該持續強化偏鄉公共運輸供給的普及率與使用彈性，並適時提供補助，以上麻煩兩週，部長這邊可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所提的這個建議蠻多的，這個部分我們儘量內部先做研議，比較具體的方案兩週內跟您報告。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，接下來有請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63817b22f6be42c8d9ea3bc5a9eeba56a836925e9381caa8c49ddf20834a5201b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"13:10:44 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簡單跟您報告一下三樣東西都有被變第一個是加熱式餐盒第二個是口糧第三個是我們的所謂的即食包也就是在一般便利商店我們可以看到的一個就是直接拆開的即食包請問你這個準備多少?這三樣各準備多少?"},{"start":57.621,"end":71.966,"text":"我可以私下跟委員報告因為這個準備的天數它是屬於比較機密的機密嗎是確定是機密不同不同這個我們農業部都講了我們的戰備儲糧準備6個月7個月什麼6個月委員分成兩部分農業部都講了你有什麼機密可以講我是覺得奇怪的這個農業部的準備有了經濟部會講了這個"},{"start":83.806,"end":99.928,"text":"委員我所謂的經濟的部分是指的是說它的個別的天數我可以跟委員報告全部來全部來維持30日以上冷凍食品都是在7日以上的冷凍食品7日然後30日價格怎麼樣價格"},{"start":102.04,"end":116.127,"text":"價格的話就是加熱式的比較貴一點它就在240塊左右然後口糧的部分比較便宜口糧部分大概在90塊左右那剩下來的調理包的部分就跟一般市售的一樣大概在40、50塊左右"},{"start":118.15,"end":134.464,"text":"所以大家可以大概分得清楚了冷凍的7天其他的30天以上以上到哪裡不知道就這個意思是不是對 詳細的因為牽扯到人數的問題所以跟委員私下再說好 私下跟我說明來 部長我想請問你你今天對外講了說中國大陸中共如果封鎖台灣國際不會做事"},{"start":147.701,"end":167.987,"text":"請問它現在封鎖沒有?迄今嗎?對,到現在為止如果按照國際法上的定義的話,它目前並沒有,因為封鎖是一個交戰的行動請問你那聯合力艦2020B算不算封鎖?算是一種操演,但沒有真的封鎖"},{"start":168.792,"end":192.134,"text":"超遠封鎖,但是接近封鎖,不等於封鎖,是不是?」是這樣的意思?他自己發布這段,他就是一個罪有嘛,他自己在超遠那他並沒有畫射箭和禁航區,也沒有讓任何的載空機或者是載船來自由的進出我們的港口啊這兩天在平潭打飛彈是不是因應美加的軍艦經過我們這邊?"},{"start":194.605,"end":220.904,"text":"你說他在平坦對平坦前幾天我們的瞭解就是一個例行性的演練那但是他不像這個例行性的演練把他故意宣傳然後作為一個心理威懾的一部分這樣子算不算因應我剛說過了因為美加不是軍艦經過我們這裡嗎我們的理解是這個是一個他例行性訓練的項目之一但是他把他就是有點要擴大作為一個"},{"start":223.463,"end":246.581,"text":"製造對我們的一個心理威懾,算是在歷史以外從事一個認知戰嗎?應該是這樣的概念部長,你今天講的話,這裡面有很多的歧讀說如果封鎖台灣國際不會做事,你的言下之意是一封鎖我們就要靠人家救,自己沒辦法自救,是這個意思嗎?不是"},{"start":248.325,"end":275.948,"text":"我們封鎖我剛剛已經講了如果是屬於國際法上的封鎖的話他是阻止所有國家基建進出我們管轄的港口、機場跟海岸線那這樣子的一個封鎖行為會被視為戰爭行為我們就會進入應急作戰階段我們所有的部隊我們的所有的武器裝備都會進入應急作戰階段應該有的部署位置我先問你一個很粗淺的一般老百姓很想知道的"},{"start":277.236,"end":286.409,"text":"現在道路的步步進逼2024A再過來B慢慢一直把台灣越拉越緊的情況之下"},{"start":287.813,"end":295.174,"text":"我們看到我們的因應除了你們在這裡講說都免驚啦都免驚啦講得好像感覺相關的單位我們的國軍只剩下打嘴砲而已啊或者是我們沒有說我們不用那個我一再的講我們要警惕這樣子的一個不是不是好好好我要強調是說怎麼會說他一直進逼然後我們嘴巴講而已沒辦法讓他不要進逼或者把他讓他退回去"},{"start":317.899,"end":320.242,"text":"就是說A到B又往台灣進了我想辦法讓他退到A甚至於退得更前面"},{"start":325.411,"end":343.207,"text":"這是中國的一種威權擴張中國在挑釁啊你要想辦法,你要讓人家知道我們國防預算一直增加我們不申告衝突,我們在克制我們只是向氣球維持現狀中國不認為維持現狀是可以接受的啊這個問題是出在中國不接受現狀的維持啊"},{"start":349.853,"end":369.631,"text":"那我們不應該接受他一直往我們這裡面圍難道國防部不是這樣子嗎?不是這種態度嗎?所以我們就要用聯合情形戰爭的手段來綿密的監控他相關的所有的作為我們要掌控他的所有的一舉一動不管是航空的監控不夠啦你要想辦法讓他不進來嘛那我們有應處啊只是說沒有啊 沒有看到應處 什麼應處呢?"},{"start":372.473,"end":392.72,"text":"我們要捍衛我們的領海、領空、領土這個部分就是我們的現在映出這個灰色地帶洗腦我們最必要的一個一個部分那我們就是要應對應對這樣子的請問你B有沒有比A更靠近台灣 有沒有"},{"start":393.527,"end":418.403,"text":"他都沒有進入二次海裡對但是有靠近一點啊那不是沒有沒有進入二次海裡我們看圖都有那圖這樣畫問題是他沒有這樣的作為啊那他圖也沒有精緯度他自己就畫了圖然後看起來跨過二次海裡可是問題是他的操演一天結束在這一天當中他就沒有進入到我們的二次海裡不管是這個在空中的或是海面的啊"},{"start":418.723,"end":442.289,"text":"所以你的意思是以後不管中國大陸中共他怎麼樣的演習我們都不要理他大家都不用怕是不是這個意思不是我從來沒有講過不是你從來沒有講過我們是這樣所以不用理他怎麼可以不用理他呢我們要戒慎恐懼面對這樣子的一個敵情日趨嚴峻威脅的一個狀況請問老百姓要做什麼心理解釋"},{"start":445.512,"end":458.044,"text":"我覺得老百姓當然我們在推動全民防衛任性的目的就是在讓這個全民應該要有一個在團結之下要建立這樣的一個心防居然能夠思維"},{"start":460.346,"end":479.375,"text":"你上次講了說40萬的民力不等於民兵可是你那個叫戰手冊裡面TEC、TEC就講到說最好的防禦就是把對方殺死那這個很好啊那這個不就是全民皆兵了嗎我想這個TEC應該是消防署是吧"},{"start":480.583,"end":485.77,"text":"是哪一個?消防署吧?那這個應該是不是由消防署來回答?"},{"start":494.638,"end":519.351,"text":"那個戰術手冊是我們因應不同的時間不同地點採取的不同救護方式你上面寫的說最好的防禦方式就是把對方殺死那不就全民皆兵了那個是在測驗的一個翻譯的那個題目就是那個訓練後的測驗的翻譯的題目翻譯喔對所以就講白了嘛就通通是美國叫我們做的嘛是不是就這個意思啦是不是"},{"start":523.516,"end":538.408,"text":"沒有這是給舊戶同仁另外一個思考就是在不同的時間採取不同的因應作為好啦最後一個我時間到了不想拖太久了部長我請問你現在有沒有比520更緊張了台海的局勢有沒有我認為中國一直是採取這樣子的一種對我們"},{"start":548.584,"end":575.723,"text":"在周遭進行這樣子一個演訓的相關的作為那這些相關的作為他不會因為任何在任何的情況之下他會找任何的理由或任何的藉口然後來持續的來進行這樣的一個挑釁的作為那我們國人當然都要團結那國軍得要借勝一對川普這個最近的民調不錯看起來有機會說不定選贏了說不定的不知道"},{"start":577.537,"end":581.458,"text":"但是他5月份的時候講了一句話說中共如果入侵台灣要轟炸北京結果現在救他現在說要制裁他要關稅扣150%到200%到底的做法就是跟對烏克蘭一樣制裁俄羅斯然後也不幫俄國人打仗要給武器對台灣是幾乎完全一樣你怎麼看川普這樣講法"},{"start":607.489,"end":631.071,"text":"我想美國迄今為止我只能夠說美國迄今為止仍然維持一個戰略模糊的政策這個戰略模糊的一個政策意思就是說你不能夠排除他可能出兵你也不可能排除他不出兵也就是他維持一個戰略模糊的一個然後藉此來進行一個嚇阻那我想這是迄今為止美國政府的一個態度"},{"start":631.493,"end":635.24,"text":"他的美國都戰略模糊了我們的外交官還戰略這麼清楚那請問我們要不要戰略模糊"},{"start":639.724,"end":662.086,"text":"我們是守勢的一方,我們要的就是說如何拒止這個中國可能的一個全面侵犯然後讓一旦發生這個全面侵犯,我們讓它全面侵犯能夠失敗我們要很具體吧,我們戰略不能模糊,我們要戰略清楚你懂不懂我講的,不能讓它愈來愈雷齒,一步就是這樣"},{"start":663.649,"end":678.829,"text":"我們的戰術戰略要很清楚啊對在平時我們應付灰色地帶的洗澡就是要捍衛我們的領土領空領海那如果說有那在暫時的話就是讓他的這個清台的行動失敗這是我們非常清楚的一個戰略"},{"start":680.091,"end":700.337,"text":"所以我們是戰略清楚美國是戰略模糊是這個樣子嗎我該不該這樣講我們沒有要採取這個之前已經講我們沒有要反攻大陸我們就是守勢作戰的一方只有他我們要隨時戒備他任何可能對我們的作為我們的"},{"start":703.678,"end":709.341,"text":"很清楚的就是我們希望能夠維持現狀時間到了我最後一句話你今天各大媒體講的那一句話其實外界的解讀是國防部長顧立雄說如果被封鎖就是國際不會做事言下之意就是我們沒有人力突破他的封鎖就這個意思我不是這個意思不是喔就這樣就不用國際的啊我們自己都可以突破還要國際"},{"start":733.011,"end":733.272,"text":"阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾"},{"start":741.618,"end":765.348,"text":"他封鎖請問你他封鎖我們有沒有能力突破封鎖我們有沒有能力我們要我們要應用我們所有的這個防衛的力量來確保我們這個國土的安全你現在連講的就這麼沒信心你應該很大聲的講我們絕對有人力突破封鎖再等到外面的來更好這樣是不是這種答案不是更漂亮"},{"start":768.634,"end":785.582,"text":"我已經講過了沒有講沒有聽清楚封鎖這個階段就已經進入了我們應急作戰的階段我們就要準備好應對這樣子的一個交戰的做法沒有回答問題憑著中華民國的國軍能不能突破封鎖問你這句話啦可以不可以啦"},{"start":786.482,"end":803.31,"text":"我們能夠做這個相關的因應的一個作為然後讓他的這個封鎖的這個行動會不成功那我們這就是我們應該要做的事情那就是解讀說可以突破封鎖那你快點啊 簡單一點 聽得懂嗎你說一堆人聽不懂可以突破封鎖那你聽得懂嗎 可以嗎我們 呃 會來 呃 救他的這個不敢說 奇怪的 這麼沒信心我已經在做事給你了 不敢接 你看"},{"start":817.353,"end":830.987,"text":"你說完全贊成賴文獎的,絕對有人力突破就好了,我說不是你說的,不是很好我個人認為要封鎖沒有那麼簡單,我們也有能力力來保衛我們的國土然後來進行這個反封鎖相關的作為這不等於突破封鎖,不等於突破封鎖"},{"start":836.28,"end":844.384,"text":"這等於通過封鎖啦對不起我能不能請教一下委員認為什麼叫做突破封鎖他把你封鎖就把你圍起來啊突破就是要出去啊這治理行業就這麼簡單的事情這個沒什麼大的學問啊這需要什麼學問那我們有相關的反封鎖的這個規劃跟作為剛才這裡也沒有辦法沒有規劃啦 有人力就好了啦"},{"start":859.231,"end":868.778,"text":"我想我們也應該要有具備這樣的一個反封鎖的能力不要再說了 說得急急的 國防部長你這樣弄我們有信心嘛你今天回答我們都沒有信心去本來我們都辯護"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1177,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（13時1分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長辛苦了，前面有委員問到，我再確定一下，我們現在國軍用的戰備餐盒加熱的部分最後確定是用什麼版本？是40塊、50塊的簡易版？還是用240塊的6葷2素的？"],["陳次長道輝：簡單跟委員報告，三樣東西都有備便，第一個是加熱式餐盒，第二個是口糧，第三個是即食包，也就是在一般便利商店可以看到的直接拆開的即食包。"],["賴委員士葆：這三樣各準備多少？"],["陳次長道輝：我可以私下跟委員報告，因為準備的天數屬於比較機敏的。"],["賴委員士葆：機密嗎？"],["陳次長道輝：是，確定是機密。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，農業部都講了，戰備儲糧準備6個月、7個月，農業部都講了，你還什麼機密，我覺得奇怪，農業部都準備了，經濟部也講了。"],["陳次長道輝：我所謂的機敏的部分指的是它的個別天數，我可以跟委員報告，我們維持30日以上，冷凍食品都在7日以上。"],["賴委員士葆：冷凍食品7日，其他30日，價格怎麼樣？"],["陳次長道輝：加熱式的比較貴一點，差不多在240元左右，口糧比較便宜，大概90元左右，剩下的調理包部分，就跟一般市售一樣，大概在40、50元左右。"],["賴委員士葆：冷凍的7天，其他的30天以上，以上到哪裡不知道，是不是這個意思？"],["陳次長道輝：對，因為牽扯到人數的問題，所以私下再跟委員說明。"],["賴委員士葆：好，私下跟我說明。請問部長，你今天對外講中共如果封鎖臺灣，國際不會坐視，請問它現在封鎖沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：迄今嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：對，到現在為止。"],["顧部長立雄：如果按照國際法上的定義，它目前並沒有，因為封鎖是一個交戰的行動。"],["賴委員士葆：聯合利劍2024B算不算封鎖？"],["顧部長立雄：算是一種操演，但沒有真的封鎖。"],["賴委員士葆：操演封鎖，但是接近封鎖，不等於封鎖，是不是？是這樣的意思？"],["顧部長立雄：它自己發布的字眼就是操演（drill），它並沒有劃設任何禁航區，也沒有讓任何載空機或載船自由進出我們的港口。"],["賴委員士葆：這兩天在平潭打飛彈是不是因應美加的軍艦經過我們這邊？"],["顧部長立雄：你說它在平潭嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：對，前幾天。"],["顧部長立雄：就我們的了解是一個例行性的演練，但是它將這個例行性演練故意宣傳，作為一個心理威懾的一部分。"],["賴委員士葆：算不算因應我剛說過的，美加不是軍艦經過我們這裡嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們的理解是這是一個例行性訓練項目之一，但是有點把它擴大成一個對我們的心理威攝，算是在例行性以外從事認知戰。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你今天講的話裡面有很多的解讀，說如果封鎖臺灣，國際不會坐視，你的言下之意是一封鎖，我們要靠人家救，自己沒辦法自救，是這個意思嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：不是。"],["賴委員士葆：不然是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛才已經講了，如果是屬於國際法上的封鎖，它是阻止所有國家的機艦進出我們管轄的港口、機場和海岸線，這樣的封鎖行為會被視為戰爭行為，我們就會進入應急作戰階段，我們所有的部隊、我們所有的武器裝備都會進入應急作戰階段應該有的部署位置。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在問你一個很粗淺的、一般老百姓很想知道的，現在大陸步步進逼，2024A，再過來B，慢慢一直把臺灣越勒越緊的情況之下，我們看到我們的因應除了你們在這裡講都不用怕如何如何，感覺相關的單位、我們的國軍只剩下打嘴砲而已。"],["顧部長立雄：我們沒有說我們不用那個……我一再的講我們要警惕這樣的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會說它一直進逼，而我們一直嘴巴講而已，沒辦法讓它不要進逼，或者讓它退回去，A到B是往臺灣進了，我想辦法讓它退到A，甚至於退到更前面，有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這是中國的一種威權，中國在挑釁啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你要想辦法啊！你要讓人家知道，我們國防預算一直增加。"],["顧部長立雄：我們不升高衝突，我們在克制，我們只是企求維持現狀，中國不認為維持現狀是它可以接受的，這個問題出在於中國不接受現狀的維持啊！"],["賴委員士葆：那我們不應該接受它一直往我們這裡面圍啊！難道國防部不是這樣子嗎？你這種態度嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們就要用聯合情監偵的手段來綿密的監控它相關的所有作為，我們要掌控它所有的一舉一動，不管是海空的……"],["賴委員士葆：監控不夠啦！你要想辦法讓它不進來嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：我們有應處啊！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啊！我沒有看到應處，什麼應處呢？至少想辦法不要讓它……"],["顧部長立雄：我們要捍衛我們的領海、領空、領土，這個部分就是我們現在應處這個灰色地帶襲擾最必要的部分，我們就是要應對這樣子的……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，B有沒有比A更靠近臺灣？"],["顧部長立雄：它都沒有進入24浬。"],["賴委員士葆：但是有靠近一點，難道不是？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有進入24浬。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看圖都有。"],["顧部長立雄：圖這樣畫，問題是它沒有這樣的作為啊！它的圖也沒有經緯度，他自己就畫了圖，然後看起來跨過24海里，問題是它的操演一天結束，在這一天當中，它就沒有進入到我們24海里，不管是在空中或海面。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思是以後不管中國大陸、中共怎樣的演習，我們就不要理它，大家都不用怕，是不是這個意思？"],["顧部長立雄：不是，我從來沒有講過不用理它，怎麼可以不用理它呢？我們要戒慎恐懼面對這樣的敵情日趨嚴峻威脅的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：請問老百姓要做什麼心理建設？"],["顧部長立雄：我們推動全民防衛韌性的目的就是在讓全民應該要有一個在團結之下要建立這樣的心防，居安能夠思危。"],["賴委員士葆：你上次說40萬的民力不等於民兵，可是你的教戰手冊裡面TECC就講最好的防禦就是把對方殺死，這個很好啊！這個不就是全民皆兵了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：TECC應該是消防署發布的，是不是應該由消防署來回答？"],["劉組長宏儒：委員好，戰術手冊是我們因應不同的時間、不同的地點，採取的不同救護方式。"],["賴委員士葆：你在上面寫的啊！最好的防禦方式就是把對方殺死，這就全民皆兵啊！"],["劉組長宏儒：那個是在訓練後的測驗的翻譯題目。"],["賴委員士葆：翻譯？"],["劉組長宏儒：對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以講白了，統統是美國叫我們做的，是不是？就這個意思啦！"],["劉組長宏儒：沒有，這是給救護同仁另外一個思考，就是在不同的時間採取不同的因應作為。"],["賴委員士葆：請問部長，現在臺海的局勢有沒有比520更緊張？"],["顧部長立雄：我認為中國一直採取在我們周遭進行演訓的相關作為，在任何的情況之下，它會找任何的理由或任何的藉口來持續進行挑釁的作為，我們國人當然要團結，國軍要戒慎以對。"],["賴委員士葆：川普最近的民調不錯，看起來有機會，說不定選贏也不知道，他在5月份的時候講了一句話，如果中共入侵臺灣，要轟炸北京。結果現在縮起來了，現在說要制裁它，關稅要課150%到200%，道地的做法就是跟面對烏克蘭一樣，制裁俄羅斯，也不幫烏克蘭打仗，只給武器，對臺灣幾乎完全一樣啊！你怎麼看川普這樣的講法？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能夠說美國迄今為止仍然維持一個戰略模糊的政策，這個戰略模糊的政策就是說你不能排除它可能出兵，也不可能排除不出兵，也就是它維持戰略模糊，藉此來進行嚇阻，我想這是迄今為止美國政府的態度。"],["賴委員士葆：美國都戰略模糊了，我們的外交官還戰略這麼清楚，請問我們要不要戰略模糊？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是守勢的一方，我們要的就是如何拒止中國可能的全面侵犯，一旦發生全面侵犯，我們讓它全面侵犯能夠失敗。"],["賴委員士葆：我們要很具體吧！我們戰略不能模糊，我們要戰略清楚，你同不同意我講的，不能讓它逾越雷池一步，不是這樣嗎？我們的戰略要很清楚啊！"],["顧部長立雄：對，平時我們應付灰色地帶的襲擾就是要捍衛我們的領土、領空、領海，在戰時的話，就是讓它侵臺的行動失敗，這是我們非常清楚的戰略。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我們是戰略清楚，美國是戰略模糊，是這個樣子嗎？我可不可以這樣講？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們沒有要反攻大陸，我們就是守勢作戰的一方，我們要隨時戒備它任何可能對我們的作為，很清楚的就是我們希望能夠維持現狀。"],["賴委員士葆：我最後一句話，你今天向各大媒體講的那句話，其實外界的解讀是國防部長顧立雄說如果被封鎖，國際不會坐視，言下之意就是我們沒有能力突破它的封鎖，就是這個意思啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我不是這個意思。"],["賴委員士葆：不是喔？這樣就不需要國際啦！我們自己就能夠突破，還要國際！如果可以的話，我們自己來就好啦！不是這樣嗎？還要國際！我們先突圍啊！不是這樣嗎？請問你，它封鎖，我們有沒有能力突破封鎖？"],["顧部長立雄：我們要運用我們所有防衛的力量來確保我們國土的安全。"],["賴委員士葆：你現在連講都這麼沒信心！你應該很大聲的講：我們絕對有能力突破封鎖，再等待外面的來，更好！這種答案不是更漂亮嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我已經講過了，封鎖這個階段就已經進入我們應急作戰的階段，我們就要準備好應對這樣的交戰作為。"],["賴委員士葆：你還是沒有回答問題，憑著中華民國的國軍，能不能突破封鎖？我就問你這句話，可不可以？"],["顧部長立雄：我們能夠做相關的因應作為，讓它的封鎖行動不成功，這就是我們應該要做的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：那就是解讀可以突破封鎖，這樣比較快啊！講得簡單，大家才聽得懂，你講一堆大家聽不懂的，講可以突破封鎖，這樣比較聽得懂，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會來就它的……"],["賴委員士葆：還是不敢講，很奇怪耶！這麼沒信心！我已經做球給你了，你還不敢接，你要說完全贊成賴委員講的，絕對有能力突破，這樣就好了，是我講的，不是你講的，這樣不是比較好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我個人認為要封鎖沒有那麼簡單，我們有能力來保衛我們的國土，進行反封鎖相關的作為。"],["賴委員士葆：這不等於突破封鎖，這不等於突破封鎖啦！"],["顧部長立雄：我能不能請教一下委員認為什麼叫突破封鎖？"],["賴委員士葆：它把你封鎖就是把你圍起來，突破就是我出去了，這麼簡單的事情，這沒什麼大學問，這需要什麼學問？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有相關的反封鎖規劃和作為，但是在這裡沒有辦法公開相關訊息。"],["賴委員士葆：不用規劃，有能力就好了！"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們也應該要具備這樣的反封鎖能力。"],["賴委員士葆：都不敢講，講話畏畏縮縮的，你是國防部長，要講得讓我們有信心，你今天的回答讓我們都沒有信心，本來有信心都變沒有了。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，部長請回。","吳思瑤，吳思瑤，吳思瑤委員不在。","高金素梅，高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","張嘉郡，張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束，本日會議有張嘉郡委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供。委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meet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我們也會再繼續追蹤 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1474,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時2分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部部長還有教育部，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長、學特司司長好。部長，我一直在跟你討論，關於校園兒少不當對待的事情，不應該成為兒少法的裁罰黑數，部長上任至今我質詢過非常多次，不知道部長有沒有掌握目前的進度？我當時說衛福部內部分案的作法，會導致很多兒少加害者在你們自己兒少法的框架裡面，繼續被隱形、被吃案。教育部也給我們相關的回文說，目前只剩下少數縣市的補正資料。從提案到今天已經半年過去，目前的裁罰公告進度如何？可不可以請兩位做個回應？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是不是……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，看起來沒有掌握，那我來告訴部長、司長，請繼續聽。目前我們手上有幾個新聞，光是查得到的新聞，還不含沒有報出來的新聞，在兒少法裁罰專區依然一片空白。為什麼會這樣？你們告訴我因為要走司法流程，沒有走完司法流程，就沒有辦法被公告。所以到他相關的判決完成前，只要這個加害者當事人被解除羈押，他就繼續在民間大搖大擺，可以開課、可以開班，可以用各式各樣的名義在民間收小孩進來上他的課。但是這個人其實有案在身，只是因為司法判決尚未完成，所以家長搞不清楚，家長就算上了衛福部的兒少裁罰專區，依然找不到他的名字，因為他的司法判決還沒有完成，怎麼辦？"],["張司長秀鴛：跟委員說明，其實行政罰跟刑事罰是兩個併立的……"],["陳委員培瑜：我當然知道，所以你們要告訴我怎麼辦嘛！如果我今天要幫小孩報名一個外面的課程，可是衛福部兒少裁罰專區卻告訴我：家長們不用擔心，到我們的網站上可以查一查陳培瑜是不是曾經有加害的案例，陳培瑜是不是如何如何。但是因為陳培瑜的司法案件還沒有走完，你們難道沒有作法可以處理嗎？","如果按照你的說法，我跟你分享下一個案例，剴剴案大家很心痛，而且全臺灣都在矚目，12月剴剴過世，2024年3月新聞揭露，很快的偵結起訴。可是我要說，要不是因為剴剴案有這麼高的關注度，他的偵查起訴也不會這麼快，於是你們裁罰公告就很快。有相關的案例，可以讓我們去理解，難道我們每一個孩子都要像剴剴一樣那麼慘，這樣加害人的名字才可以快速被看見嗎？可是你們還有地方政府都說因為還沒有定讞，所以不能裁罰，於是我們可以看到這些人繼續在民間開班授課，繼續教小孩，甚至繼續收費，然後繼續在教學場域當中殘害我們的孩子。","光是這個暑假，這個只是有上新聞的，我要再次強調，臺灣的家長對於我們政府沒有信心，因為有非常非常多的案子，一而再、再而三的發生這個事情：8月臺中6歲童遭虐，捏脖子、壓制折手、全身傷，施暴者是園長；9月性侵竹北三個男童，陽光國立大學生；10月新竹3歲小孩昏厥送醫，竟然是健身教練虐到睪丸發黑。這些都是有上新聞，而且就算上了新聞，他一樣不會在裁罰專區被公告，更何況沒有上新聞的！我要再次請教衛福部，你們自己可不可以有更積極的作法？不要再用司法判決還沒有裁處判決出來。"],["張司長秀鴛：自從委員關心，特別是家外的不當對待，希望能夠……"],["陳委員培瑜：還有校外的不當對待這些事情。"],["張司長秀鴛：對，就是校外，他們的關係不是主要照顧者這一類的，我們現在都以案管制，所以我們3個月都會定期去跟縣市做一些勾稽核對……"],["陳委員培瑜：3個月喔？"],["張司長秀鴛：我們自己跟縣市政府3個月會有定期的聯繫會議來做勾稽比對，我想對於落實的部分，可能真的要請委員允許我們一些時間來跟地方再加強訓練然後說明，我想這個部分都依法有據，而且……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我就請教，去裁罰專區都還找不到他的名字，如果如您所說，假設3個月我們才跟地方政府勾稽一次資料，或是開相關的平臺會議來確保這些案件的進度，3個月！這裡面的人如果再度做了什麼樣的壞事，我們如何確保孩子的安全？我覺得我們真的很難跟家長交代，很難跟這些受害的小孩交代！","假設3個月，你們真的開成了會，之後最後的決議一樣告訴我因為司法判決還沒有走完，尚未定讞，所以他不能上兒少法裁罰專區被公告姓名，那不就又回到原點了嘛？"],["張司長秀鴛：回到行政調查。"],["陳委員培瑜：假設我可以接受3個月你們要開一次會，但是你們開會所依據的，所謂合理的法規範又會是什麼？光是就這3個案子，可不可以請您舉例說明？"],["張司長秀鴛：應該說，它有一個行政調查，如果行政調查屬實，經過縣市自己……"],["陳委員培瑜：行政調查權跟必須執行的工作在縣市政府嘛，對不對？"],["張司長秀鴛：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果縣市政府這3個月都不積極，等到你跟它3個月開一次會議時才說：好，謝謝你的提醒，我來查這個案子！這中間衛福部都不能有任何更積極的作法嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：目前我們的行政規定原則上是4個月，最長、原則上能夠超過的話就4個月，因為這4個月是按照性侵、性騷相關法規規定的，最長4個月。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你的意思是告訴我，如果在相關法規我們表定4個月，難道我們要回來談修法嗎？那就又回到之前我已經問過了，兒少權法修法的進度到底是什麼？又回到原點了嘛！所以光是行政的部分，我們都沒有辦法處理、給家長一個交代，我真的覺得這件事情說不過去。當然，我會叫教育部出來，是因為之前我們一直跟教育部溝通，在學校裡面的案件沒有通報到衛福部來的，你們兩個系統沒有勾稽。在我們不斷的、不斷的跟你們開會溝通，並且我們用力的監督，我們現在看到教育部在幼教法跟兒少法的部分，目前有放在一起，可是我們點進去看那個系統，兩個系統介面長得完全不一樣，很難用啦！但是我知道並且看到你們有誠意了，你們知道把兒少法的部分跟幼教法加在一起，讓家長可以快速查詢，這個部分我要先快速給予肯定。可是我相信整個系統、整個平臺都可以更加的好用，然後讓家長一鍵查詢，可是還是要回到兒少事件調查跟裁罰公告，我認為應該要在1個月內告訴大家，你們可以更積極地怎麼往下做，而不是只有告訴我們法規範是4個月或者是3個月會開一次會議來處理這個事情，但是事情一而再、再而三地發生，都沒有解決。我再回到剛剛上一頁的新聞，謝謝主席給我多的時間。光這些案子，你們目前掌握進度又是如何？沒有嘛，對不對？"],["張司長秀鴛：應該是說，縣市都在調查中，如果他們還沒有公告，就表示還在進行中。"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員提的這個很重要，如果按照時程，這緩不濟急……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們來研擬看看，有更快速保護我們兒少的……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們回到臺北市……好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：一定要第一時間就能夠保護，我們一定要用各種方法來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我要再次說，我並不是說臺北市做得好，其實臺北市那個案子要不是鬧得很大，其實它也不會走這麼快，我們實話實說；所以我只是要告訴部長，也告訴司長，我們目前遇到的困境就是這樣。假設所有立委辦公室都會收到跟兒少有關的陳情，最大的破口可能就是我剛剛講的那件事情，不管你們是3個月才開一次會，還是相關法規範說4個月才要再開一次會，這些中間的空洞會讓這些犯法的大人一而再、再而三，繼續在民間流竄。","我要再次強調這些事情，他可以不要進補習班，因為補習班有相關的法規範要去查詢，他自己光是在網路上任何報名平臺就可以開班授課，他取名叫魟魚老師、大頭魚老師，過去他所有的東西都不會被查到，然後他繼續招生授課，繼續殘害我們的小孩，我真的不知道什麼時候會再產生一個悲傷的個案，所以真的要積極。我一而再、再而三，每次來衛環委員會都在講這個題目，拜託！我也會再繼續追蹤，謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們一定來努力。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長以及司長。","接續請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d639035686ede9d9dcdea3bc5a9eeba56a836925e9381caa8c4bee343b31a484f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"13:05:45 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的很破綻的很淺層的你吸收到知識是非常非常有限的連資訊都導不上"},{"start":245.387,"end":252.383,"text":"所以我覺得你應該要提振出版業對如何振興出版業你要有一套方案"},{"start":253.953,"end":279.145,"text":"從財政面從政策面怎麼去鼓勵從需求面從供給面供給面當然就是降低這個出版業的這個相關成本那個我時間到了我以後再有時間再跟部長來討論所以要有這個宏觀的知識的培養是藉由藉由這個有效率的閱讀要閱讀也要有提振先提振出版事業"},{"start":279.893,"end":283.282,"text":"其實委員講的都是我最關心的事情我會努力做好 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哇 蓬勃發展那這個看起來台灣相對就好弱"},{"start":128.175,"end":144.837,"text":"事實上我助理還有幫我準備你看像日本九州他就把這個航海王這個航海王這一部漫畫九個角色做成同項放在九州的九個四裡面"},{"start":146.072,"end":160.817,"text":"所以就有一堆這一些人想去收集說我想要跟韓海文這9個重要角色9個主角我想要跟他們合影然後上到我的臉書上所以我就要跑這9個地方"},{"start":163.232,"end":189.08,"text":"吼那從這裡就可以看出說這種IP跟真實世界交錯運用然後把整個資源把它炒作到最大有些資源來自民間但是政府也是很有用心去看到民間的這些東西所以我們當比較吼重點就是再來就要來了吼所以說全球知名的這個角色的授權金我們可以看出說吼從寶可夢啦Hello 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我們有請部長還有保護社公司司長 謝謝"},{"start":34.741,"end":50.628,"text":"我先跟部長來提醒一件,部長最近應該也非常清楚這個新聞,最近令人非常傷心的一個新聞是有一個小孩,兩歲的幼兒,他母親早逝,他爸爸擔任軍職,他無法照顧這個小孩,就託給了軍眷。"},{"start":52.609,"end":68.633,"text":"就是這個所謂的五寶媽的這個網紅結果呢這個小孩卻全身被虐待全身都是傷我想請教一下部長因為我們今天的主題就是來防治這個兒虐嘛是我們對這件事情我們之後有我們現在有什麼測定的作為嗎在這個事件之後我們有嗎"},{"start":75.745,"end":94.626,"text":"我們第一個當然就強化歐少保護的三級的預防保護從初級方面我們加強113保護的專線的宣導我想聽部長回答好像並不是那麼清楚我想因為我時間有限這些策定作為請你再提供書面的"},{"start":96.608,"end":109.986,"text":"我認為我們這個兩歲的生命不能夠就這樣子隕落其中有一個很重要的題目我們的缺漏就是有關於委託監護這件事情不能夠所託非人"},{"start":111.547,"end":135.64,"text":"這個案子就如同我剛剛講的這個生父在今年的2月29日前往了戶政事務所正式的把這個男童的監護權委託了這個無保媽但這個無保媽其實並不是一個適合照顧孩子的人最後導致這個孩子虐死那所以重點其實在於這個委託監護事實上我們現在常見的申請委託監護可能是隔代教養單親家庭或者是單身的或是同志或是其他特殊狀況的"},{"start":136.781,"end":161.294,"text":"的家庭他們沒有辦法照顧孩子所以他就會把孩子的監護權改定為他人而這件事情就是這樣發生的因為我們現在辦理委託監護非常簡單只要依據民法1092條他只要因為特定事蹟事項他就可以書面來委託他人行使監護的職務而辦理的方式只要代理身分證授權書"},{"start":163.115,"end":179.065,"text":"還有未成年的子女的戶口名簿他就可以去任何一個戶政事務所來去做辦理那所以呢我們現在呢這個流程就是這樣子迅速的就辦妥了你覺得他有沒有就是有一些問題要來去處理呢"},{"start":180.974,"end":206.092,"text":"市長跟委員說明的確這樣子看起來在這一塊是過去我們比較沒有跟民政單位做勾結的部分對那我想就是說針對因為我們現在內政部護政事務調到的資料是112年未成年人的監護登記就有3263人每一年的數字都差不多所以這裡面到底托付的對象是不是適合"},{"start":207.353,"end":232.952,"text":"我們無法得知啦所以我想要要求兩件事情就是第一個請你們跟內政部來一起分析這3263人的監護登記狀況大約是什麼樣子的狀況是改為非親屬來照顧呢還是是由親屬來照顧我希望我們這一塊要非常的明確再來因為委託監護事實上就是照顧這個小孩我們對於基養家庭其實是有一套標準的"},{"start":233.732,"end":234.812,"text":"現行兒犬法裡頭對於委託給不適任人員是違法的,這有相關規定。至於說這個"},{"start":256.121,"end":256.862,"text":"現在這個問題是他委託了這個監護喔"},{"start":273.824,"end":274.184,"text":"請委員給一些時間,三個月可以嗎?兩個月好不好?"},{"start":297.608,"end":298.249,"text":"訪視記錄要確實遵守訪視期限"},{"start":321.067,"end":346.986,"text":"也就是說在我們的訪視規定裡面本來就有講啊就是未滿6個月的開案前6個未滿6歲的個案開案的前6個月應該要訪視兩次嘛但是這一次呢卻沒有遵守相關的規範第二個是當我們發現兒童有不明傷口的時候要啟動一個通報的機制但是這一次也沒有通報所以以致於我們錯失了搶救凱開的時間點第三個是我們的外聘督導不能都是同一位"},{"start":347.706,"end":363.841,"text":"應該要透過不同的專家學者來協助督導社工執行業務的狀況所以這些缺失我們沒有積極的跟社工單位或是相關的團體來討論要怎麼樣避免再次發生的這樣子不幸的事件我們有做相關的討論了嗎"},{"start":367.287,"end":393.726,"text":"各位委員報告我們在凱凱案之後我們對於這個收出養案件的這個評估已經做過一些相關的討論對這些流程上面有第一個是當然是我們要求這個收出養單位他其實必須要是有外聘督導不能夠是自己裡面的人那第二個是對於這個如果放在這個保母家的話我們現在只要收出養孩子的安置都必須是要由縣市政府來做評估"},{"start":394.486,"end":394.666,"text":"張雅琳"},{"start":409.821,"end":409.881,"text":"確實執行的狀況呢?"},{"start":427.131,"end":439.818,"text":"那我想這個部分我們就還是持續的來去追蹤啦就是縣市因為縣市的執行才是最關鍵的地方啦我們這一定要有確實的掌握才能夠避免這些憾事來發生那再來就是說保姆的退場機制就是說"},{"start":441.499,"end":464.686,"text":"今天我們剛好討論的題目都跟保母有關可是我們都是在重大事件之後甚至是孩子傷亡之後我們才去廢除他的保母登記證但是我們其實都有設置居家托育中心而且中心其實都有訪視員會到保母家來進行訪視輔導我們應該要怎麼樣來透過訪視及早找出不適任的保母避免這一件事情再次發生所以我想說就是說"},{"start":465.862,"end":465.882,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":493.787,"end":508.32,"text":"跟委員報告大概是第一個當然是在法律上面我們也希望再加強就是托育專法裡面我會增加強度那在還沒有法定過之前我們其實針對於如果是保姆照顧全日托跟夜間托育的還有一些比較特殊狀況比如說發染遲緩的這樣子的"},{"start":510.502,"end":510.622,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":529.238,"end":550.993,"text":"好,因為我想這個不預警的方式,其實坦白說過去雖然是不是說我也是不預警啦可是事實上有時候都是可以猜得到啦,也都是有所以我覺得我們再來詳細的討論啦,到底確實要如何來執行這件事情好不好然後最後一題啦,抱歉再給我一點時間很快齁,就是請法務部部長、司長可以請回,我們請法務部一下齁"},{"start":556.328,"end":573.825,"text":"我想針對這個毒價的問題來跟法務部做一個討論就是說在12月8號三毒了其實我們是有一些關於毒價的處罰但是立法之後我想最近新聞真的非常多這兩個禮拜就有三則的新聞在講說造成毒價造成的危害像是我們9月17號"},{"start":575.086,"end":586.329,"text":"新毒獨駕造成祖孫一死一重傷9月底又是獨駕新北土城分局所清水派出所的所長在這過程中不幸殉職"},{"start":588.115,"end":611.921,"text":"10月12日獨駕肇事通緝犯撞死高雄90多歲阿嬤10月13日新北的男獨駕還嗆騎士竟然到刑警踢到鐵板被逮那我想要知道為什麼獨駕這麼難處理因為其實取締相對來說是困難的而且吸毒性屬於一個隱匿性行為很多時候都是在車禍之後我們才發現他是獨駕"},{"start":615.322,"end":630.388,"text":"而且呢就是毒價裡面的這個喪屍毒品呢是屬於麻醉的依託名指都是用電子煙來提供給這個電子煙族群所以雖然衛福部在9月已經列為三級毒品但是剛剛大家都已經講了嘛其實都已經賣翻了"},{"start":631.528,"end":649.641,"text":"大家就以為這只是個電子煙可是不知不覺卻成為了毒販還邊開車邊吸毒造成了我們非常大的一個公共危險那我們其實就統計分析了一下毒價的再販率是大概是44%比我們的酒駕再販率還高可是我們毒價移送公共危險罪卻不到10%為什麼這麼困難"},{"start":652.53,"end":679.262,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個行法第185條之3的毒價的規定在去年修正之後有關於這個毒價的這個適用毒品達到一定預值就會過成185條之3的第3款的規定所以我們在去年那個食藥署有公布了我記得30幾項的預值"},{"start":681.363,"end":682.924,"text":"對,我覺得這就是問題,因為我們必須要去證明它能不能安全駕駛,那這就會陷入就是說"},{"start":707.018,"end":730.605,"text":"我們必須要去調查發生車禍的一個因果關係是什麼嘛對不對就會在這時候就變成是這個樣子我想吸毒就是違法啦因為我時間有限了我就快快講一下就是說我們是不是可以針對我們法規周全的問題來研商研商來考慮說獨家造成的事故其實常常比酒駕的惡性更重大這是嚴重的侵害了社會治安的公共危險的行為所以為了保護我們的國人保護我們的警員"},{"start":731.485,"end":748.615,"text":"我們是不是可以討論只要使用毒品駕車就可以以公共危險罪來論罪呢?我們是不是可以來研議討論一下這件事情?跟委員報告185條之3修正過後我剛剛跟委員報告只要達到那個意旨尿液檢出來超過意旨"},{"start":752.077,"end":771.107,"text":"我們還要討論是不是能夠安全駕駛對 安全駕駛那部分是沒有達到那個預指的情況之下就會跳到的這個比較困難對 我知道所以我的意思是說因為我們現在的公共危險罪起訴率其實是非常低嘛可是有大量的可能都在於這個要論證是不是屬於安全的駕駛能不能安全駕駛這件事"},{"start":771.587,"end":771.607,"text":"謝謝張委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1428,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時48分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["張委員雅琳：還有保護司及社工司司長，謝謝。","我想先跟部長提醒一件事情，我想部長最近應該也非常清楚這則新聞，這是令人非常傷心的一則新聞，有一個2歲的幼兒，他母親早逝，他爸爸擔任軍職，無法照顧這個小孩，所以就託給了軍眷，也就是所謂5寶媽的這個網紅，結果小孩卻被虐待、全身都是傷。我想請教一下部長，因為我們今天的主題就是防治兒虐，對於這件事情，我們現在有什麼策進的作為嗎？在這個事件之後，我們有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個當然就是強化兒少保護的三級預防保護，從初級方面，我們加強113保護專線的宣導，推展……"],["張委員雅琳：我聽部長回答好像並不是那麼清楚，因為我時間有限，這些策進作為請你再提供書面報告給我。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["張委員雅琳：那我就直接再來講這個重點，我認為這一個2歲的生命不能就這樣子殞落，其中有一個很重要的題目，我們的缺漏就是有關於委託監護這件事情，不能夠所託非人。這個案子就如同我剛剛講的，這個生父在今年2月29日前往戶政事務所，正式把男童的監護權委託給5寶媽，但5寶媽其實並不是一個適合照顧孩子的人，最後導致這個孩子被虐死，所以重點其實在於委託監護。事實上，我們現在常見的申請委託監護，可能是隔代教養、單親家庭，或是同志或是其他特殊狀況的家庭，他們沒有辦法照顧孩子，所以他就會把孩子的監護權改定為他人，而這件事情就是這樣發生的。因為我們現在辦理委託監護非常簡單，依據民法第一千零九十二條，只要因為特定事項，就可以書面委託他人行使監護的職務。至於辦理的方式，只要帶身分證、授權書，還有未成年子女的戶口名簿，就可以去任何一個戶政事務所辦理，我們現在的流程就是這樣子，迅速的就辦妥了，你覺得它是不是有一些問題要去處理呢？"],["張司長秀鴛：跟委員說明，的確這樣子看起來這一塊是過去我們比較沒有跟民政單位做勾稽的部分。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我從內政部戶政司所調到的資料是112年未成年人的監護登記就有3,263人，每一年的數字都差不多，這裡面到底託付的對象是不是適合我們無法得知，所以我想要要求兩件事情：第一個，請你們跟內政部一起分析這3,263人的監護登記大約是什麼樣子的狀況，是改為非親屬來照顧呢？還是由親屬來照顧？我希望這一塊要非常的明確。再來，因為委託監護事實上就是照顧小孩，我們對於寄養家庭其實是有一套標準的，我們是不是可以比照這個標準來評估當託為非親屬的時候，我們來評估他是不是適合照顧小孩的人？這部分是不是也可以來研擬做個評估？"],["張司長秀鴛：現行兒權法裡頭對於委託給不適任人員是違法的，這個有相關規定，至於說在民法……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道，但問題是現在這種狀況就是有發生嘛，事實上大家也非常清楚，可能是我們朋友的朋友，我們覺得這個保母很好，他也可能只是長輩而已，他也不是保母，我們就會委託給他嘛！現在這個問題是他委託了監護，所以我覺得我們還是必須要去清查，了解內容之後，依據寄養家庭的相關標準去做一個評估，這樣才能夠杜絕這件事情再度發生好嗎？所以我想要了解在多久的時間內可以召集開會，討論相關的可行方案呢？"],["張司長秀鴛：是，請委員給一些時間，三個月可以嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：兩個月好嗎？兩個月好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。再來是關於剴剴案的社工被起訴，我想這次起訴社工對大家應該都有所警惕，我根據起訴書的內容，其實也跟一些資深的社工做了一些討論，他們認為有以下的一些缺點：訪視的紀錄要確實的遵守訪視的期限，也就是說，在我們的訪視規定裡面，本來就有講未滿6歲的個案，開案的前六個月應該要訪視兩次，但是這一次卻沒有遵守相關的規範。第二個是當我們發現兒童有不明傷口的時候，要啟動通報的機制，但是這一次也沒有通報，以至於錯失了搶救剴剴的時間點。第三個是外聘督導不能都是同一位，應該要透過不同的專家學者來協助督導社工執行業務的狀況。針對這些缺失，我們有沒有積極的跟社工單位或是相關團體討論要怎麼樣避免再次發生這樣子的不幸事件？我們有做相關的討論了嗎？"],["張副署長美美：跟委員報告，在剴剴案之後，我們對於收出養案件的評估已經做過一些相關的討論。"],["張委員雅琳：對於這些流程上面……"],["張副署長美美：第一個，我們要求收出養單位必須要有外聘督導，不能夠是自己裡面的人。第二個，如果是放在保母家的話，現在只要收出養孩子的安置都必須由縣市政府來做出養必要性的評估，不能夠是給收養單位來做。"],["張委員雅琳：所以是什麼時候開始執行這樣子的流程？"],["張副署長美美：我們上路應該是今年的8月到9月份。"],["張委員雅琳：8月到9月？"],["張副署長美美：對，我們已經有函公文給各地方。"],["張委員雅琳：那確實執行的狀況呢？"],["張副署長美美：我們最近才做過一個檢討，原來收出養家庭安置在保母家的，我們都review過，大概有20個孩子，除了有些孩子已經出養之外，其他的大概縣市政府都有介入。"],["張委員雅琳：都已經介入了？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想這個部分我們還是持續的追蹤，因為縣市的執行才是最關鍵的地方，這一定要有確實的掌握才能夠避免這些憾事的發生。","再來就是保母的退場機制，剛好今天討論的題目都跟保母有關，可是我們都是在重大事件之後，甚至是孩子傷亡之後，我們才去廢除他的保母登記證。其實我們都有設置居家托育中心，而且中心都有訪視員會到保母家進行訪視輔導，我們應該要怎麼樣透過訪視及早找出不適任的保母，避免這一類事情再次發生？其實這一套訪視機制輔導管理方法已經24年了，從2000年到現在已經24年，依據兒少法第二十五、第二十六條以及第二十六條之一的相關規定，其實都有去輔導，但是退場的部分是沒有落實的，請問你們需要多少時間來把這件事情落實呢？是不是可以在0到2歲托育法規的草案推出之前把這件事情處理好？"],["張副署長美美：跟委員報告，第一個，當然在法律上面我們也希望再加強，就是托育專法裡面，我們會增加強度。在還沒有法定過之前，我們針對保母照顧全日托跟夜間托育的，還有一些比較特殊狀況，譬如說發展遲緩或者是他自己照顧三名以上的，因為我們覺得這個大概都是高負荷，所以我們會提高訪視的頻率，而且是不預警的抽查。另外一個就是我們對於訪員，其實我們也加強他辨識兒虐的相關知識，每年會做調訓。"],["張委員雅琳：針對不預警的訪視，坦白說，過去雖然說也是不預警，可是事實上有時候都是可以猜得到，所以我覺得我們再來詳細討論到底要如何確實執行這件事情好不好？"],["張副署長美美：好。"],["張委員雅琳：最後一題，抱歉，請再給我一點時間。司長可以請回，我們請法務部一下。我想針對毒駕的問題來跟法務部做個討論，在12月8號已經三讀一些關於毒駕的處罰，但是立法之後，我想最近新聞真的非常多，這兩個禮拜就有三則新聞在講毒駕造成的危害，像是9月17號新竹毒駕造成祖孫一死一重傷；9月底又是毒駕，新北土城分局清水派出所的所長在這個過程中不幸殉職；10月12號毒駕肇事，通緝犯撞死高雄九十多歲的阿嬤；10月13號新北的男毒駕嗆騎士，而且竟然攔到刑警踢到鐵板被逮。為什麼毒駕這麼難處理？因為取締相對來說是困難的，而且吸毒屬於一個隱匿性行為，很多時候都是在車禍之後，我們才發現他是毒駕，而且毒駕裡面的喪屍毒品是屬於麻醉的依托咪酯，都是用電子煙來提供給電子煙族群，雖然衛福部在9月已經列為三級毒品，但是剛剛大家都已經講了，其實都已經賣翻了，大家就以為這只是個電子煙，可是不知不覺卻成為了毒販，還邊開車邊吸毒，造成非常大的公共危險。我們統計分析了一下，毒駕的再犯率大概是44%，比酒駕再犯率還高，可是毒駕移送公共危險罪卻不到10%，為什麼這麼困難？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，刑法第一百八十五條之三有關毒駕的規定在去年修正之後，有關於毒駕施用毒品達到一定的閾值，就會構成刑法第一百八十五條之三第一項第三款的要件。所以去年食藥署有公布，我記得三十幾項的閾值，只要尿液檢出有超過閾值，就會構成第一百八十五條之三第一項第三款的處罰要件。但是如果他沒有達到那個閾值，就會跳到第一百八十五條之三第一項第四款，但這個時候我們要證明他不能安全駕駛。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我覺得這就是問題，因為要去證明他能不能安全駕駛，就會陷入我們必須要去調查發生車禍的一個因果關係是什麼嘛，對不對？到時候就變成是這個樣子。我想吸毒就是違法啦，因為我時間有限，我就快快講一下。我們是不是可以針對法規周全的問題來研商、來考慮，其實毒駕造成的事故常常比酒駕的惡性更重大，這是嚴重侵害社會治安，涉及公共危險的行為，所以為了保護我們的國人，保護我們的警員，我們是不是可以討論，只要施用毒品駕車，就可以以公共危險罪來論罪呢？我們是不是可以來研議討論一下這件事情？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，第一百八十五條之三修正過後，只要達到那個閾值，尿液檢出來超過閾值……"],["張委員雅琳：對，可是你剛剛說我們還要討論是不是能夠安全駕駛。"],["郭司長永發：對，安全駕駛那部分是沒有達到那個閾值的情況之下，就會跳到……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道。"],["郭司長永發：這個比較困難。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道，所以我的意思是，因為我們現在的公共危險罪起訴率其實是非常低嘛！但是有大量的可能都在於要論證能不能安全駕駛這件事情。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，因為第一百八十五條之三第一項第三款修正沒過多久，可能新案子的一個統計計算還沒出來，所以我們會加強，拜託我們檢察官針對這一點、這個問題來處理。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個部分我想我們就持續來關注，因為你既然說上路沒多久，我們就持續來關注，因為這件事情真的對大家的安全非常重大，謝謝。"],["郭司長永發：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張委員、謝謝司長。","翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","繼續請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"156009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d634d685a9dcdb05dbafbc85fd0f5e73d7736925e9381caa8c4d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主席謝謝 麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是 洪委員好好 部長好 部長本席有先看到有個媒體的新聞他是獨家 他有講到是說我們現在外島的戰備純糧要從原本的這個乾糧的一個部分變成改用這個加熱餐盒是不是 有這樣規劃"},{"start":29.392,"end":53.289,"text":"是有這樣的規劃,我們是不是請後製室做一個來各委員報告一下,我們在強化這整個韌性上面,後勤韌性,我們的確準備了除了乾糧之外的一些便利包或者是即食品,可以方便這個官兵隨時可以使用其實現在官兵也有所謂的這個加熱式餐盒,只是現在列為的是救災物資而不是戰備物資"},{"start":54.52,"end":77.183,"text":"我們已經改列為戰備物資然後在下個年度會開始試行那全面來做的話是在115年115年等於一年多後對這應該有預算的關係是我也很清楚這沒問題我想給官兵弟兄吃的比較好或是說比較及時加熱熱騰騰的食物嘛總不是說這個冷冰冰的乾涼口涼"},{"start":78.204,"end":99.48,"text":"但是有外界講是說他一個參核要240塊如果說我們比較大量的話是不是能夠壓低這個成本或甚至說我們是不是能夠有跟國內的廠商來去做研發合作還是怎麼樣是 其實我們這個加勒斯的參核跟美軍他的加勒斯參核幾乎是一樣我們要考慮到官兵在戰場上面他需要的熱量"},{"start":100.521,"end":126.817,"text":"保存、攜帶性、方便性等等還有一些特殊的狀況需要使用的話它的加熱速度要很快所以基本上它的價格應該是不會太低這是成本價好 了解沒問題 這給官編弟兄比較好的待遇我想這個是我們共同努力的目標再來部長 我想請教您今天上午也有證實是說在"},{"start":128.277,"end":135.817,"text":"中共他們上個禮拜的一個軍演的時候當天是有調動相關部隊的其中包括說關子部是不是"},{"start":137.677,"end":165.148,"text":"我想這個關子部的部分因為我們沒有提升戰備成績那關子部的部分的話應該是由關子部的指揮官他基於這個淡水河防的一個介護的一個任務他認為有這樣的一個戰備需求所以他召回小部分的應該是只有25名的這個郡居地在附近的然後回來然後做一個這個他認為一個加強戒備"},{"start":166.108,"end":193.742,"text":"那這個是他應該是指揮官比較積極認識的部分積極認識啦齁那但是就整個國防部來講並沒有提高這個戰備等級因為當天國防部的記者會有媒體也詢問那當天的記者會是講是說並未下達任何的動員那可是昨天就有看到是說官職部因為本期的選區就在淡水阿其實我們淡水的鄉親真的很配合我們國軍阿"},{"start":195.023,"end":210.456,"text":"就是說要演習要有任何的動作的時候其實都是在淡水地區但是我們淡水地區的鄉親也認為是說我們軍民也一家嘛可是如果說有什麼樣的一個動作什麼樣的情況下的話總是我們也希望是國防部能夠告訴我們國人"},{"start":212.277,"end":241.549,"text":"而不是說記者會講沒有那後來你才講是說有戰備需求因為今天早上的媒體的下標是顧立雄認了有戰備需求所以關子部10點召回官兵我是說是由關子部他自己做決定就這個部分的話我是事後去了解是由關子部的那關子部 抱歉喔 部長關子部做相關的一個動作沒有再往上呈報嗎還是關子部就可以來做決定了"},{"start":243.135,"end":270.376,"text":"報告委員我是林三次長因為上個禮拜的這個中共的聯合力軍2024B他的一個威脅的態樣我們北中南東不見得是一致的那關子部他所負責的是包含的淡水河口甚至於他這個藉由河口他可以很快的突入到我們的中蘇地區所以關子部的指揮官他這個考量了敵情未來的發展他才會有這樣子的一個"},{"start":270.936,"end":290.738,"text":"官職或指揮官考量的敵情他的敵情是他有看到什麼還是他有掌握到什麼而做一下動作他的情報是從哪邊來當然第一個部分是從中共他所發布軍演的課程第二個是我們相關的一些情監偵的手段"},{"start":291.178,"end":317.088,"text":"相關單位嘛 是是不是所以是相關單位告訴關子部關子部來做相關的命令但做相關的命令來做相關動作的時候他沒有往國防部回報嗎這個部分基本上我們沒有去要求他必須要向我們回報但是關子部的指揮官他也是他並不是把所有關子部的人全部召回他也只是做一些預應的措施只召回25位好 來 部長"},{"start":320.831,"end":345.128,"text":"部長本席再請教現在有媒體也有一些民調機構都有講到是說對於中共近期武力犯台國軍防衛台灣的能力有沒有信心這個是基金會做說45%的民眾對於國軍防衛台灣能力有信心但是50.3%是沒有信心部長你有看到這一個相關民調嗎"},{"start":346.629,"end":367.603,"text":"我有大略看一下這個相關的不過我想國軍的重要的一個戰略的目標是在拒止這個敵人達成任務也就是說我之前已經有講過了我們如果這個暫時的話我們就是主要的目的就是在讓中共能夠放棄奪台這個行動"},{"start":369.484,"end":392.475,"text":"我們會利用這個不對稱作戰的一個概念在它最脆弱的時候去讓拒止、遲滯或擾亂敵人達成這樣子登台的作戰目標這個是我們認為現在是我們的基本的一個戰略我們認為我們有信心應該可以來不斷地來削弱在它最脆弱的那一個時段不斷地削弱它的一個戰略"},{"start":392.935,"end":417.417,"text":"部長你認為我們現在有信心本席也希望對我們中華民國國軍都很有信心那但是另外一個部分那我們準備好打仗了嗎因為我們看到駐美代表他直接在接受媒體訪問的時候就講說台灣準備好打仗了我想請教一下外交系統跟國防系統他講這樣的話發言的時候有參考或是詢問國防系統的一個意見嗎"},{"start":418.311,"end":431.614,"text":"我想余大使應該主要的重點應該是要強化自我防衛的能力跟決心這樣子的一個意思這樣子那我們還是以這個維持兩岸的和平穩定的現狀我們沒有要求我們沒有要求戰如果說你強化自我防衛的意識跟決心我們百分之百贊成"},{"start":442.617,"end":467.231,"text":"但是為什麼會有一個駐美代表尤其是相關外交人員他尤其又是在美國對國際的媒體他反而會講出說台灣準備好作戰我還是認為部長怎麼現在感覺好像部長像外交官外交官像國防部長這以前我們有個戰狼外交部長現在我們有戰狼駐美代表這很奇怪啊"},{"start":468.152,"end":489.109,"text":"如果說真的有發生任何戰事全部都是我們的官兵弟兄要在第一線面臨戰事這都是我們的子弟那對於國防部長來講當然你有你的戰略考量但是對於國人來說我們希望的是安全我們也支持國軍捍衛中華民國捍衛2350萬人"},{"start":493.254,"end":507.024,"text":"可是我們有需要這樣子像駐美代表一樣然後講說準備好打仗嗎這樣的話是不是之前講出來沒有跟國防部討論過你是不是也不清楚他有接受這個專訪在他專訪之前我們備戰並不求戰"},{"start":511.348,"end":538.653,"text":"我們也不拒戰、不畏戰,但我們不求戰我們也希望能夠和平穩定發展,不是嗎?是,我們維持希望兩岸維持現狀這個是我們的目標謝謝部長,我想在外交國防委員會既然是外交國防委員會,一半是外交一半是國防我們台灣的處境不容易,我也理解但是捍衛中華民國的主權,我們都是共同一致的"},{"start":539.384,"end":539.404,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝謝偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1136,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時51分）主席謝謝，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好，本席有先看到有個媒體的新聞，是獨家，它講到我們現在外島的戰備存糧要從原本的乾糧改用加熱餐盒，是不是有這樣的規劃？"],["顧部長立雄：是有這樣的規劃，是不是請後次室說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：簡要說明就好。"],["陳次長道輝：跟委員報告，我們在強化後勤韌性上面的確準備了除了乾糧之外的一些便利包或即食品，可以方便官兵隨時使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實現在官兵也有加熱式餐盒。"],["陳次長道輝：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：只是現在列為救災物資，而不是戰備物資。"],["陳次長道輝：我們已經改列為戰備物資，在下個年度會開始試行，全面來做的話是在115年。"],["洪委員孟楷：等於一年多後。"],["陳次長道輝：對，因為有預算的關係，委員也很清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：這沒問題，給官兵弟兄吃得比較好，或者比較即時加熱，熱騰騰的食物，總不是冷冰冰的乾糧、口糧，但是有外界說一個餐盒要240元？如果比較大量的話，是不是能夠壓低成本，甚至我們是不是能夠跟國內的廠商研發合作或怎樣？"],["陳次長道輝：其實我們加熱式餐盒跟美軍的加熱式餐盒幾乎是一樣的，我們要考慮到官兵在戰場上面需要的熱量。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有保存、攜帶性、方便性等等。"],["陳次長道輝：對，還有一些特殊的狀況需要使用的話，加熱速度要很快，所以價格應該不會太低，這是成本價。"],["洪委員孟楷：了解，沒問題，給官兵弟兄比較好的待遇是我們共同努力的目標。再請教部長，你今天上午也有證實在中共上個禮拜軍演時候，當天是有調動相關部隊，其中包括關指部，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們沒有提升戰備層級，關指部應該是由關指部的指揮官基於淡水河防的戒護任務，他認為有這樣的戰備需求，所以他召回小部分的人，應該只有25名眷居地在附近的回來，因為他認為應該加強戒備，這個是指揮官比較積極任事，就整個國防部來講，並沒有提高戰備等級。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為當天國防部的記者會也有媒體詢問，當天的記者會是說並未下達任何的動員，可是昨天就有看到關指部，因為本席的選區就在淡水，結果我們淡水的鄉親真的很配合國軍，要演習、要有任何動作的時候，其實都在淡水地區，但是我們淡水地區的鄉親也認為軍民一家，可是如果有什麼樣的動作、什麼樣的情況下，總是我們也希望國防部能夠告訴國人，而不是說記者會講沒有，後來你才講有戰備需求，因為今天早上的媒體下標是「顧立雄認了有戰備需求所以關指部10點召回官兵」。"],["顧部長立雄：我是說由關指部自己做決定，我事後去了解是由關指部決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：抱歉喔！部長，關指部做相關的動作沒有再往上陳報嗎？還是關指部就可以來做決定？"],["陳次長文星：因應上個禮拜的中共聯合利劍2024B的威脅態樣，我們北中南東不見得是一致的，關指部所負責的是包含淡水河口，甚至於它藉由河口可以很快突入到我們中樞地區，所以關指部的指揮官考量敵情未來的發展，才會有這樣的命令下達。"],["洪委員孟楷：關指部的指揮官考量的敵情是他有看到什麼，還是他有掌握到什麼，而做以下的動作？他的情報是從哪邊來？"],["陳次長文星：第一個部分是從中共所發布的軍演課程，第二個是我們相關的情監偵手段。"],["洪委員孟楷：相關單位嘛！"],["陳次長文星：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是相關單位告知關指部，關指部來做相關的命令，但是做相關的命令來做相關的動作時，他沒有往國防部回報嗎？"],["陳次長文星：這個部分基本上我們沒有要求他必須向我們回報，但是關指部的指揮官並不是把所有關指部的人全部召回，他只是做一些預應的措施，只召了25位。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在有媒體、也有一些民調機構講到對於中共近期武力犯臺，國軍防衛臺灣的能力有沒有信心，這個是基金會做的，45%對於國軍防衛臺灣能力有信心，但是50.3%沒有信心。部長，你有看到這個相關民調嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我有大略看一下，不過我想國軍重要的戰略目標是在拒止敵人達成任務，也就是我之前有講過了，戰時的話，我們主要的目的就是讓中共能夠放棄奪臺的行動，我們會利用不對稱作戰的概念，在它最脆弱的時候，去拒止、遲滯或擾亂敵人達成這樣的登臺作戰目標，這個是我們目前基本的戰略，我們認為我們有信心應該可以在它最脆弱的時段不斷來削弱它的戰力。"],["洪委員孟楷：你認為我們現在有信心，本席也希望對我們中華民國國軍都很有信心，但是另外一個部分，我們準備好打仗了嗎？因為我們看到駐美代表在接受媒體訪問的時候就說臺灣準備好打仗了。請教一下，外交系統和國防系統，他這樣發言的時候有參考或詢問國防系統的意見嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想俞大使主要的重點應該是要強化自我防衛的能力跟決心的意思，我們還是以維持兩岸和平穩定的現狀，我們沒有要求戰。"],["洪委員孟楷：強化自我防衛的意識和決心跟準備好打仗是完全兩碼子事，部長剛才講的我覺得很好啊！如果你強化自我防衛的意識和決心，我們百分之百贊成，但是為什麼會由一個駐美代表，尤其是相關外交人員，尤其又是在美國對國際的媒體，他怎麼會講出臺灣準備好作戰？怎麼感覺現在部長像外交官，外交官像國防部長。以前我們有個戰狼外交部長，現在我們有戰狼駐美代表，這很奇怪啊！如果真的有發生任何戰事時，全部都是我們的官兵弟兄要在第一線面臨戰事，這都是我們的子弟，對於國防部長來講，當然你有你的戰略考量，但是對於國人來說，我們希望的是安全，我們也支持國軍捍衛中華民國、捍衛2,350萬人，可是我們有需要像駐美代表一樣說準備好打仗嗎？這樣的話講出來之前是不是沒有跟國防部討論過？你是不是也不清楚他有接受這個專訪，在他專訪之前？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的立場是備戰並不求戰。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們也不懼戰、不畏戰，但我們不求戰，我們也希望能夠和平穩定發展，不是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們希望兩岸維持現狀，這是我們的目標。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長，既然是外交及國防委員會，一半是外交，一半是國防，我們臺灣的處境不容易，我也理解，但是捍衛中華民國的主權我們都是共同一致的，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，部長請回。","陳亭妃，陳亭妃，陳亭妃委員不在。","鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","李昆澤，李昆澤，李昆澤委員不在。","蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"156008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6340bcd32e85f9715fea3bc5a9eeba56a836925e9381caa8c490663b8067722b965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:53:03 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索費不支欸"},{"start":150.465,"end":174.366,"text":"因為您知道嗎?你看他們要面對環敏地區他的一個規費就六千塊然後他要去取得那些建築執照每一年安全結構就要兩萬那再來水土保持這些從簡易的三十到六十萬不等明年起又有水污法所以他們現在都要處理花一筆污水處理廠的錢"},{"start":175.387,"end":192.752,"text":"都還沒有含工程費用可能就要花掉一百萬他們也願意但是請看一下部長我們的露營場的作業辦法吼好不容易編了好幾千萬要去輔導明明交通部在一百一十一年的四月質詢的時候會議記錄也都有說過"},{"start":196.053,"end":211.605,"text":"在輔導充足入法之前不會去違法取締可是他們只要一申請那些人來就先給他收一個違規取締那這樣子到底怎麼辦所以呢是不是這個要點應該要予以修改"},{"start":212.285,"end":234.943,"text":"那我再給你看一個案例這個人呢他寫賴給我他說他為了符合第一階段第二階段他已經花130萬了結果最後又卡在什麼呢連我的砧板都要拆我要再多花二三十萬他說是農業局不同意所以一堆又是中央地方政府不同調部會之間不同調好因為時間的關係零零總總"},{"start":238.866,"end":250.702,"text":"我舉一個還有一個不同調的問題我們來看一下這個關於我們的露營場的範圍位於環敏地區的認定明明112年4月13號會議記錄協調會是寫著說"},{"start":255.888,"end":276.581,"text":"只要營衛設施、衛生設施管理師不得位於環境敏感地區可是隔了4個月跟地方政府會議我們交通部竟然退讓欸因為桃園市政府苗栗、新竹南投這些縣市強烈主張通通都不行"},{"start":277.862,"end":303.299,"text":"那這樣子到底要怎麼推動我都不曉得了所以我是希望說關於這些我剛剛講的帳篷啊、砧板啊這種可以隨時移動的到底要怎麼認定它位於什麼地方要怎麼認定我覺得錢大家我聽起來大家都願意花錢合法花那也需要尋求政府的幫助我自己會找原民會但是我覺得法規的部分的鬆綁"},{"start":304.46,"end":317.498,"text":"要不然沒有辦法推動沒有辦法推動我覺得是給我們的老百姓看笑話所以我在這個地方就是請部長幾個訴求像是我們原住民族土地使用管制規則這個部分"},{"start":319.841,"end":342.881,"text":"我們的國土計劃法明年上路有開放一個空間讓我們另以法律定資那我們也要推動高山農業農業部那邊我幾度質詢農業部長都尊重會配合我們國土計劃法下的原住民族土地使用管制規則我覺得這個空間我也要問交通部長願不願意來支持"},{"start":345.009,"end":370.431,"text":"好,報告委員,這個部分我們當然也尊重原住民的這個土地的使用那這個部分我們也會找原民會大家來溝通再結商好,那我希望說院長,我在總諮詢的時候,包括國土計畫法院長有承諾說要找一個政委召開跨部落的會議協調其他的合法化事宜那我希望說在今年底前召開,而且要複製本席可以嗎?"},{"start":371.155,"end":384.828,"text":"好,好,沒問題那謝謝齁那我在這個部分就後續我會繼續的來持續關注那也希望那個辦法要點的部分希望觀光局要趕快的來處理然後盡速的發文,可以嗎好,我請觀光署盡速來處理好,謝謝部長齁,謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1033,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai 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benefit我們花納稅的錢去推廣光光目的絕對正當絕對是好事啦但我只有質疑一件事啊錢是不是應該要這樣花第二個我要問的事情是委員會真的覺得很怪"},{"start":246.775,"end":275.641,"text":"就我們大家就實事求是把事情做好評估成效的時候也不要好像要遮醜我為什麼要遮醜媒體報導10月16號的報導去質疑這個花這九千萬到底是在幹嘛結果你知道嗎結果10月18號的時候臉書跟IG就關了這個臉書跟IG的所有權使用權應該是我們交通部的吧"},{"start":277.23,"end":295.076,"text":"這是我們花錢設的欸阿誰把他關阿部長可以回去瞭解一下好 這個我回去瞭解你回去瞭解一下是誰把他關阿好阿這個很怪嘛你派人家批評批評完了以後發現臉書有1064名追蹤IG有1249名粉絲比YT好一點阿"},{"start":302.998,"end":330.781,"text":"可是報告委員他們給我一個數據這個部分我還是要回去再查證他們說API的訪問次數達到6800多萬那網頁的瀏覽次數達到4億2000多萬這個數據我回去會再查證我今天提出來我覺得效應要好好的盯請你回去好好的查證因為你如果講的那個數字是真的10月16號這個媒體報導交通部叫大力駁斥善不假訊息"},{"start":332.162,"end":350.618,"text":"他上面寫的是一萬四千六百個用戶上線啊一萬四千六百個用戶上線搞虛擬觀光那我就會算啊除以九千萬大概平均一個用戶多少錢嘛是匯後的部分剛剛今天問到的問題沒有答案的匯後部長一個禮拜之內順便回覆可以嗎"},{"start":351.825,"end":369.259,"text":"這個部分應該可以不好意思那個主席我可以借用一分鐘嗎很快請那個臺鐵局的不好意思臺鐵股份有限公司的董事長那個董事長我上次在關心那個平交道遮斷器的事情"},{"start":370.587,"end":392.814,"text":"這個事情很嚴重嘛牽涉到列車的安全行人的安全經過評價報的安全那我知道你很重視啊因為我知道董事長好像過去我質詢完了以後過去這幾天四個電務段的同仁都早來開會了嘛是是嗎是那你們開會檢討完以後現在的結論是什麼覺得很安全要繼續裝嗎"},{"start":394.764,"end":417.785,"text":"跟委員報告齁那個我們也有陸續提供資料給委員齁包括我們上一次講兩週內要提沒有因為時間的關係所以就給我結論就是你開完會的結論是覺得這家公司做得很安全叫髒話的不要再抗拒了我們繼續裝嗎不是我們現在的做法就是因為我們有去檢視了齁該這家公司他發生的問題那個"},{"start":419.787,"end":446.195,"text":"我們要求他改善的這個整個過程我們都有去檢視那現在的確他改善以後是收斂的收到很低所以這個部分我們會特別注意第二個我聽說你們還要再給這家公司另外開一個1.9億的標案讓他改善電源真的還假的啊因為我聽到的時候我很震驚啊我前面給你那麼多錢事情沒做好搞得不安全要延宕已經很誇張啦"},{"start":447.845,"end":465.818,"text":"聽說那家公司獅子大開口啊說要再開個1.9億的特別標案給他們改善電源系統有沒有這件事跟委員報告齁如果有這個案子的話我們絕對公開招標所以你的意思是說有這個案子就對了是不是有這個案子"},{"start":468.106,"end":486.866,"text":"有有有這個案子他如果是公開招標應該就不一定是原本的那個廠商吧就是搭配現有我們臺鐵的電源改善嘛跟那個機座改善該改善的改善該花的錢花該改善的改善該花的錢花但是"},{"start":488.272,"end":500.965,"text":"廠商拿了錢事情沒做好就要他做到好為止如果做不好該解約解約該請求賠償該請求賠償這件事情董事長可不可以承諾我是可以可以好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":987,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時39分）謝謝主席！麻煩有請交通部部長以及臺鐵股份有限公司的杜董事長。"],["主席：我們有請陳部長和杜董事長。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個要問的是交通部在疫情期間推廣虛擬實境觀光「海陸漫行」，這個計畫花了9,000萬元，這個就花了9,000萬元！目前交通部認為這個效果好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：當時是因為疫情的過程……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解，就是因為疫情所以才用虛擬觀光嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是啊，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：那虛擬觀光的效果好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：現在疫情過了，大家應該都去現場，不太會用虛擬的，所以目前……"],["黃委員國昌：我指的是在那段時間當中的效果好不好，花了9,000萬元值不值得？這個就是我問題的核心。我知道這不是你任內發生的，所以我沒有要甩鍋給你的意思，部長不用太過緊張，但我們花納稅人的錢做事情，總是要實事求是嘛！做不好就承認做不好，我們檢討改進，以後不要再犯，這個是我覺得應該要有的基本態度，所以在這個情況下，我真的要拜託交通部，就像我上一次質詢觀光署辦的那個活動一樣，真是太誇張了！丟了9,000萬元下去，結果還是限制性招標，當得標的人是跟民進黨關係特別好的，杜奕瑾你們聽過吧？"],["陳部長世凱：杜奕瑾有聽過。"],["黃委員國昌：大家就會開始質疑是要能力好還是關係好，但我覺得空泛的去質疑能力好還是關係好沒有道理，所以我們要看成效。我跟部長報告一下，海陸漫行計畫說做了12支片子，YouTube訂閱數是117個人，部長有沒有看到下面的觀覽次數？"],["陳部長世凱：有。"],["黃委員國昌：分別是394次、148次、208次、76次、73次，這個不是今天早上上片的，是兩年前上片的，對這個成效我如果用「慘不忍睹」來形容，部長同不同意？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，它這個除了YT上面上架之外是否也有在其他頻道上架我是不曉得啦！"],["黃委員國昌：有，還有。"],["陳部長世凱：如果有的話，要整個綜整起來看。"],["黃委員國昌：我等一下會馬上一個一個檢驗，我們既然花了錢，花了9,000萬元，有網站嘛！有YT嘛！有FB嘛！各個社群平台都上，我是一個實事求是的人，我們就一樣一樣來看，可能在其他的地方成效卓著也不一定啦！但以YT來講，我個人看的是上架兩年以後的觀看次數，只有幾十次到兩、三百次，我大概只有四個字形容，就是慘不忍睹！錢不能這樣花，這是我的立場。然後呢，他們說有一個網站有收羅各式各樣的人，我先假設都沒有找人來灌，這個有14,600個用戶上線，平均每個用戶體驗一次多少錢？大概8,000塊吧，這個Cost/Benefit，我們花納稅人的錢去推廣觀光，目的絕對正當，絕對是好事，但我只有質疑一件事，錢是不是應該要這樣花？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個我要問的事情是，我真的覺得很怪，我們大家就實事求是，把事情做好，評估成效的時候也不要好像要遮醜。我為什麼說遮醜？媒體10月16號的報導質疑花這個9,000萬元到底在幹嘛，結果你知道嗎？10月18號的時候，臉書跟IG就關了，這個臉書跟IG的所有權、使用權應該是我們交通部吧？這是我們花錢設的耶！誰把它關了啊？部長可不可以回去瞭解一下？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我回去瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：你回去瞭解一下是誰把它關了。"],["陳部長世凱：好啊。"],["黃委員國昌：這個很怪吧！你被人家批評，批評完了以後發現臉書有1,064名追蹤、IG有1,249名粉絲，比YT好一點啦！"],["陳部長世凱：可是報告委員，他們給我一個數據，這個部分我還是要回去再查證。他們說API的訪問次數達到六千八百多萬，網頁的瀏覽次數達到四億二千多萬，這個數據我回去會再查證，委員今天提出來，這個效益我們要好好的盯。"],["黃委員國昌：請你回去好好的查證，因為如果你講的那個數字是真的，交通部就要大力駁斥10月16號這個媒體報導，散布假訊息啊！它上面寫的是1萬4,600個用戶上線，1萬4,600個用戶上線搞虛擬觀光那我就會算啦！除以9,000萬元，平均一個用戶大概多少錢。剛剛問到沒有答案的問題，會後請部長在一個禮拜之內以書面回復，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分應該可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以啦齁！不好意思，主席我可以借用一分鐘嗎？很快的請教臺鐵股份有限公司的杜董事長，我上次在關心平交道遮斷機的事情，這個事情很嚴重，牽涉到列車的安全、行人的安全、經過平交道的安全，我知道你很重視，因為在我質詢完了之後這幾天，你把4個電務段的同仁都找來開會了，是嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們開會檢討完以後的結論是什麼？覺得很安全要繼續裝嗎？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們也有陸續提供資料給委員，包括我們上一次講兩週內要提……"],["黃委員國昌：因為時間的關係，你就給我結論，就是你開完會的結論是覺得這家公司做得很安全，叫彰化的不要再抗拒了，我們繼續裝嗎？"],["杜董事長微：不是，因為我們有去檢視這家公司它發生的問題，我們要求它改善的整個過程我們都有去檢視，現在它改善以後的確是收斂的，收到很低，所以這個部分我們會特別注意。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，我聽說你們還要再給這家公司另外開一個1.9億的標案，讓他改善電源，真的還假的？因為我聽到的時候很震驚，我前面給你那麼多錢，事情沒做好，搞得不安全又延宕，已經很誇張了，聽說那家公司又獅子大開口說要再開一個1.9億的特別標案給他們改善電源系統，有沒有這件事？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，如果有這個案子的話，我們絕對公開招標。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是說有這個案子就對了，是不是有這個案子？"],["杜董事長微：有這個案子。"],["陳部長世凱：如果是公開招標，應該就不一定是原本的那個廠商。"],["杜董事長微：就是搭配現有我們臺鐵的電源改善跟機座改善，我們不會特別……。"],["黃委員國昌：該改善的改善，該花的錢花，但是廠商拿了錢，事情沒做好，就要他做到好為止，如果做不好，該解約解約，該請求賠償要請求賠償，這件事情董事長可不可以承諾我？"],["杜董事長微：是，可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63346b1d0066ad10698446428ab222207f36925e9381caa8c4523c519c83fc81e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:33:07 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是否可以符合的爭議又有因為評分外流的投訴到工程會的事情到了今天進度仍然是嚴重的落後"},{"start":303.697,"end":318.59,"text":"又要轉延又要暫停競價又有新趕工的進度對於這個工程的得標過程感到非常多的疑慮現在說要延到118年會不會連我們賴總統任期第一個任期最晚這4年都沒有辦法有"},{"start":319.551,"end":342.059,"text":"做好的進度部長最後你回答一下這整個81億的大計畫處處都是落後請問應該要如何處置他們現在有提出修正的計畫工程還會再往後延延到什麼時候現在延到118年嘛那我們延到118年這個不能再落後我們現在要確保是再延這一次不能再落後所以至少118年之前要完成好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（12時33分）謝謝主席！我們請陳部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。我想要很直接的來詢問關於這幾次交通委員會大家都很關心的臺鐵號誌系統更新工程，這個工程的項目和金額非常高，高達81億元，工期從110年7月到115年8月，等於是要用5年的時間來進行號誌整體更新，請問一下，這個案子目前已經付出去的經費有多少？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請我們臺鐵董事長說明？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們在合約成立的時候付了22億元預付款，還有就是西門子的計軸器到貨的時候，我們依合約付給他們2.48億元。"],["徐委員巧芯：到貨的時候有付了一部分嘛！對不對？但是我想要問一下，就是這個標號工程目前的進度，就你們來說落後的比率現在高達35%，為什麼會有這樣的情形發生？部長請回答。"],["陳部長世凱：您寫的是35%，目前他們給我的進度是落後差不多37%，其實差不多。落後的原因我覺得有幾項，第一個就是在標案的過程當中，西門子當然就得標了，但是標完之後，他們對於整個合約的想法跟概念的認知跟臺鐵確實是有落差的，這是第一項。第二項是西門子在履約的過程當中，我認為目前他的能力包含他的人力確實是有落差的，對這個部分，臺鐵也覺得滿困擾，所以也組成了專案小組，一直在跟他們溝通，也一直在跟他們協商，我們希望後續的進度能夠追得上。"],["徐委員巧芯：上一次洪孟楷委員在交通委員會也質詢過這個部分，但是我必須講，雖然這個議題我是第一次在交通委員會提問，可是我跟你們索資滿多次的，第一次問你們的時候，當然不是陳部長任內，得到的回復是因為COVID-19所以計畫落後、進度落後，要辦理展延，問題是我們從這整個進度來看，疫情指揮中心在2023年即112年5月1號就已經解編了，從113年開始，我們的工程進度還是龜速的，所以其實從過去到現在，工程延宕包含您剛剛講的幾個原因，也包含我覺得我們自己在這件事情上面的用心程度非常的不足，所以過去才會給我一個因為COVID-19的回應，可是不能什麼事情都說是因為COVID-19！那我們再來看一下進度落後的部分到底是如何的情況，交通號誌聯鎖系統更新工程進度圖中的項目10是宜蘭蘇澳新站，預定開始的時間是2023年4月，預計完工時間是2023年5月，請問部長，2023年5月離現在已經整整一年多了，目前完工了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，還沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：還沒有完工的原因是什麼呢？"],["杜董事長微：這個剛剛有提到，就是西門子沒有辦法執行。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有辦法執行？所以現在施工廠商兩手一攤，還要另外發包？你們的回復是「立約商於今年9月份PMO會議明確指示沒有辦法配合新馬彎道改善工程」，所以現在要再另外發包處理，原計2023年5月22號要完工，現在還要另外發包，請問現在的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，說要另外發包是因為至少我們臺鐵公司這邊比較瞭解現況，所以對這個部分我們會另外發一個包去處理，但是這個包的費用我們會跟西門子拿。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為時間的關係，我再把最後幾張PowerPoint講完，我相信這個你們都清楚，但是我想要告訴的是社會大眾，這一個81億元的工程裡面到底有多少是落後的情況。湖口示範站也是一樣，進度嚴重落後，依照合約一樣應該要暫停計價，工期我們也不知道延長到什麼時候。所以這個案子從一開始開標就有日系跟歐系是否可以符合的爭議，又有因為評分外流投訴到工程會的事情，到了今天，進度仍然是嚴重的落後，又要展延又要暫停計價又有新趕工的進度，對於這個工程的得標過程感到非常多的疑慮，現在說要延到118年，會不會連我們賴總統第一個任期做完這四年都沒有辦法有最好的進度？部長最後請你回答一下，這整個81億元的大計畫，處處都是落後，請問應該要如何處置？"],["陳部長世凱：他們現在有提出修正的計畫，工程還會再往後延。"],["徐委員巧芯：延到什麼時候？"],["陳部長世凱：現在延到118年，這個不能再落後，我們現在要確保是再延這一次不能再落後，所以至少118年之前要完成。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。這個問題很嚴重耶！4、50個站根本還沒有找到下包商，這個很嚴重。","接下來有請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"156004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d638dddd72be0940dbf8446428ab222207f36925e9381caa8c4eaddc1a3b53412295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"12:27:31 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部長 這個我想有關於售票的部分實名制喔 欸 第一張我想很多委員都問了 我節省時間喔 我就只問 就是現在實名制當然造成了許多的亂象 那麼身為主管機關當然輔導是非常重要的 不只是輔導業者啦 民眾可能也要被教育但是今天早上喔 因為大家都在問周杰倫的這個部分喔 您說您非常討厭周杰倫是嗎"},{"start":41.577,"end":43.769,"text":"要不要再做一點解釋啊 這真的跟周杰倫有關嗎"},{"start":45.359,"end":74.999,"text":"就從剛剛講到吳宗憲也好周杰倫也好其實我都認識我的語言是開玩笑的就像吳宗憲他是一個綜藝大咖我們都很熟周杰倫我也訪問過他我剛剛講的恨是因為他造成我今天從頭到尾被一直問同一個題目所以今天變成是我們教育文化委員會的關鍵字剩下周杰倫三個字因為我覺得我可以回答的問題很多我也準備了很多答案結果一直在被問周杰倫所以我說我恨他是開玩笑的"},{"start":75.359,"end":105.179,"text":"好,所以這個只是一個玩笑話但最重要的還是怎麼樣把演唱會的實名制推下去而不是上有政策下有對策我覺得這蠻重要前面很多委員都問了那我就來問一個我自己長期一直非常關注的就是有關於到底我們現在能不能有一個所謂的建架平台這個平台是剛剛有委員垂詢到就是有關於這個到底怎麼樣來推動我們的文創您在報告上面特別寫到了這個黑潮黑潮現在被在野黨的委員抓著打"},{"start":105.639,"end":119.939,"text":"原因就是因為政府部門包括文化部包括其他的這個我們的中華電信等等這種所謂國營企業加入但是我們都知道最近最熟的一首歌叫做apt"},{"start":121.499,"end":145.55,"text":"我不知道部長知不知道APART他其實是一個BLACKPINK裡面的一個團員叫ROSE他最近跟BLOOMUS出了這一首歌馬上洗腦然後變成是透過這個大型的哥倫比亞公司跟這個ROSE再加BLOOMUS他們出了這一首APARTAPART其實根本就是一個韓國的酒桌遊戲現在大家都知道了"},{"start":146.03,"end":164.796,"text":"所以我們就知道流行音樂他需要的是帶入本土然後需要的背後是資金我長期在關注就是說我們這些文創到底資金從哪裡來如果業界有資金哪裡需要文化部哪裡需要國營企業一起加入但是最怕的是什麼"},{"start":165.256,"end":187.671,"text":"就是這些要推動文創的時候這些資產的建架平台無法去真的對於這些無形的未來充滿潛力的資產來做評估本席過去一直在財政委員會我們來看到這個台灣金服裡面有一個無形資產的建架平台但是在2017年他就死掉了再來就沒有任何原因是因為什麼"},{"start":188.331,"end":211.043,"text":"因爲銀行不敢去估價或者是銀行認為我沒有估價能力我如果估錯價我要賠錢的那麼文策院或者是文化部基本上我們現在都知道文化部有個文策院文策院在做很多文創產業的評估對不對他一定有一套建價的過程所以本席要問的很簡單就是部長以你過去在產業界面臨過這麼多"},{"start":213.964,"end":240.408,"text":"資金短缺的時候文化部有沒有可能結合金管會跟臺灣金服我們找出能夠做欠價的人才來協助銀行願意貸款給這些充滿潛力潛能的文創產業但是重點就來了部長這裡如果金管會願意做金管會彭金龍主委也告訴我他要做那文化部能不能提供軟性的資源"},{"start":240.988,"end":248.947,"text":"就像是我們經濟部過去要發展工業可以有工業局一樣我們文化部能不能有人才來協助內容建架部長"},{"start":249.841,"end":275.761,"text":"目前逐漸我拿拍電影來講已經從導演製片製片製片就是在控制預算跟收入所以如果金管會願意做這件事的話我當然很願意幫忙業者不然他們在銀行借不到錢要抵押房子然後沒辦法告訴別人說我可以賺多少錢所以我們如果能夠幫助到這一點可以有助於他從民間找到資金到銀行借錢這點我是很願意的"},{"start":276.001,"end":302.242,"text":"好 所以部長因為時間有限我只剛剛聽到你的承諾說只要金管會要做文化部可以出人所以我要求一個金管會加文化部再加台灣金服的一個所謂跨部會的會議好不好然後我們一起來協助這些需要資金的文創業者能夠在銀行借的到錢那這個平台死掉沒關係但是我們後續來做因為後面我看到蔡董事長在後頭"},{"start":303.323,"end":316.155,"text":"文策院對於評估能不能投資一定有一套方法一定有人才我們也希望文策院一起加進來不要什麼都是政府出資不要到時候又被大家講說為什麼政府獨厚我們就讓專業的一起來然後讓民間的資金可以導入讓銀行也願意背書這樣好嗎"},{"start":323.762,"end":349.539,"text":"這部分文策院經過了五年之後我相信他有請部長用書面回答好了好不好好部長我希望能夠真的有進度好不好好謝謝林楚茵委員那接下來我們請鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員不在廖偉強委員廖偉強委員廖偉強委員不在張嘉峻委員張嘉峻委員張嘉峻委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來我們有請何新淳委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":989,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時47分）謝謝美麗的主席，到了中午，辛苦了。有請文化部李部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，有關於售票實名制，請看PPT第一張，我想很多委員都問了，為了節省時間，我只問實名制造成的許多亂象，你們身為主管機關，當然輔導是非常重要的，不只是輔導業者，民眾可能也要被教育。","今天早上大家都在問周杰倫，您說您非常討厭周杰倫是嗎？要不要再做一點解釋啊！這真的跟周杰倫有關嗎？"],["李部長遠：剛剛講的吳宗憲也好、周杰倫也好，其實我都認識，我的語言是開玩笑的，就像吳宗憲是一個綜藝大咖，我們都很熟，周杰倫我也訪問過他，我剛剛講的恨，是因為他造成我今天從頭到尾被一直問同一個題目。"],["林委員楚茵：所以今天變成我們教育文化委員會的關鍵字，剩下「周杰倫」三個字。"],["李部長遠：因為我覺得我可以回答的問題很多，我也準備了很多答案，結果一直被問周杰倫，所以我說我恨他是開玩笑的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以這只是一個玩笑話，但最重要的還是怎麼樣把演唱會的實名制推下去，而不是上有政策下有對策，我覺得這蠻重要的。前面很多委員都問了，那我就來問一個我自己長期非常關注的，就是有關於到底我們現在能不能有一個所謂的鑑價平台？這個平台剛剛也有委員垂詢，到底怎麼樣來推動我們的文創？您在報告上面特別寫到黑潮，黑潮現在被在野黨的委員抓著打，原因就是因為政府部門，包括文化部，包括其他的像中華電信等等國營企業加入，但是我們都知道，最近最熟的一首歌叫做APT，我不知道部長知不知道？他其實是一個BLACKPINK裡面的一個團員叫Rosé，他最近跟Bruno Mars出了這一首歌，馬上洗腦民眾，然後透過大型的哥倫比亞公司跟Rosé再加Bruno Mars，出了這一首APT。","其實APT根本就是一個韓國的酒桌遊戲，現在大家都知道了，所以我們就知道流行音樂需要的是帶入本土，然後背後需要的是資金。我長期關注的是，我們這些文創到底資金從哪裡來？如果業界有資金，哪裡需要文化部，哪裡需要國營企業一起加入，但是最怕的是什麼？就是這些要推動文創的時候，這些資產的鑑價平台，無法去真的對於這些無形的，未來充滿潛力的資產來評估。本席過去一直在財政委員會，我們看到台灣金服裡面有一個無形資產的鑑價平台，但是在2017年就死掉了，再來就沒有了，原因是為什麼？因為銀行不敢去估價，或者是銀行認為沒有估價能力，如果估錯價要賠錢的。那麼文策院或者是文化部，基本上我們現在都知道文化部有個文策院，文策院在做很多文創產業的評估，對不對？他一定有一套鑑價的過程，所以本席要問的很簡單，部長過去在產業界面臨過這麼多資金短缺的時候，文化部有沒有可能結合金管會跟台灣金服，我們找出能夠鑑價的人才，協助銀行願意貸款給這些充滿潛力、潛能的文創產業？但現在重點就來了，如果金管會願意做，金管會彭金隆主委也告訴我他要做，那文化部能不能提供軟性的資源？就像是我們經濟部過去要發展工業，可以有工業局一樣。部長，文化部能不能有人才來協助內容鑑價？"],["李部長遠：目前我拿拍電影來講，已經從導演製片，製片就是在控制預算跟收入，如果金管會願意做這件事的話，我當然願意幫忙業者，不然他們在銀行借不到錢要抵押房子，然後沒辦法告訴別人說他可以賺多少錢，所以我們如果能夠幫助到這一點，可以有助於他從民間找到資金到銀行借錢，這點我是很願意的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，部長，因為時間有限，我剛剛聽到你的承諾，只要金管會要做，文化部可以出人，所以我要求一個金管會加文化部，再加台灣金服的一個跨部會的會議好不好？"],["李部長遠：沒問題。"],["林委員楚茵：然後我們一起來協助這些需要資金的文創業者，能夠在銀行借得到錢。這個平台死掉沒關係，但是我們後續來做，因為後面我看到蔡董事長在後頭。文策院對於評估能不能投資，一定有一套方法，一定有人才，我們也希望文策院一起加進來，不要什麼都是政府出資，不要到時候又被大家講為什麼政府獨厚，就讓專業的一起來，然後讓民間的資金可以導入，讓銀行也願意背書，這樣好嗎？"],["李部長遠：文策院經過了5年之後，我相信他有一點……"],["主席：請部長用書面回答好了，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，我希望能夠真的有進度，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","廖偉翔委員、廖偉翔委員，廖偉翔委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來我們有請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"156001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6345edcf4f1961edaefbc85fd0f5e73d7766e8eac7fc2cd0ec79e30822738802ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:45:13 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不知道那灰色當然就是一個模糊"},{"start":29.491,"end":57.822,"text":"所以我是覺得這個不管是蟒蛇戰略或者是灰色地帶戰術它執行都是一個長期的過程長期每天都會然後逐步升高壓力然後用多種不同的這個戰術去執行那我要先請教這是一個長期的心理戰也是一個長期的戰備這個準備的一個過程那變成一個常態化"},{"start":60.984,"end":73.198,"text":"蟒蛇最怕什麼?部長蟒蛇最怕最怕什麼?蟒蛇最怕什麼?你要思考他出了一個蟒蛇戰略你要知道蟒蛇不怕什麼?"},{"start":79.36,"end":90.669,"text":"你這個時候必須要讓我思考一下蟒蛇最怕什麼因為我對可能對國防的議題可以回答那你突然問我蟒蛇對於蟒蛇的這個戰略我們的應處當然就是說因為它"},{"start":97.434,"end":123.446,"text":"我認為不管國外或唐士林所發表的蟒蛇戰略就是說它藉由各種複合式的手段不斷地來進行這種軍事的動作或灰色地帶的洗澡然後呢這個針對性的這些軍演也好或者是這種常態性的戰備警訊或聯合戰備警訊也好規模也越來越大然後呢頻率越來越高這樣子"},{"start":124.838,"end":138.172,"text":"所以對我們日常的戰備這個部分高強度而且是長期性的對於前線或者是每天都要這個幾乎都要備戰的狀況之下我們的這些"},{"start":139.11,"end":166.552,"text":"海空兵力相關的狀況要能夠掌握這是一個高強度而且是長期性的一個戰略對我們前線的海空軍是一個非常大的壓力這部分它最主要達到的目的就是讓我軍讓國軍打到一個精疲力竭消耗你的日常準備戰力這個我們有沒有相關因應的方式"},{"start":168.066,"end":196.117,"text":"我之前好像應該也回答過了就是說我們對於這種消耗戰當然是一個他很明顯是他的策略之一那我們針對這種消耗戰的這個作為當然還是非常具有挑戰性但我們會多利用這個在空我們本來就每天都有在空機的訓練然後也有預定的這些戰鬥這個空中的巡邏然後任務艦也會出動所以我們那如果說"},{"start":197.137,"end":220.227,"text":"是威脅的狀況的話我們利用地面的這些防空的系統來進行追瞄這樣子盡量的來不要過度的消耗我們的這些除了作戰部隊的高強度壓力之外也要培養全民國防的戰鬥力讓全民防衛能夠深入每一個國民"},{"start":221.314,"end":245.93,"text":"瞭解說我們面臨到中國武力的所謂蟒蛇策略影響到我們國家安全我們必須要團結所以全面防衛這部分也要多一點相關的作為另外就是說講到我選區的部分這個空軍"},{"start":247.893,"end":264.826,"text":"這個工訓官校、鋼杉機場這個高頻率的這個所謂演練當然會對周遭的這些市民朋友、鄰近區域會造成這個噪音的這些影響對生活造成影響所以我也曾經"},{"start":268.248,"end":287.815,"text":"我已經去思考是怎麼樣去把這些對這些機場周遭的這些這個回饋金或者補償金能夠把這餅做大全國有那麼多機場那麼多的這個里每天的生活都受到這個飛機訓練起降的影響這部分是國防部哪一個單位來處理的"},{"start":291.206,"end":304.295,"text":"我們對於這個部分當然都有一些木鱗的一些經費啦對啦 我就說餅要做大 然後這個機制能夠更公平有一些禮啊 還要等20年才輪一次"},{"start":306.215,"end":331.981,"text":"所以我想部長你要去了解一下這個整個對空軍機長周遭的木鱗的這些我覺得好像沒記錯一年編六億這部分不夠啦我希望能夠對這些生活受到空軍訓練的這些市民朋友能夠有更多的木鱗經費的補助這部長你去了解一下好不好"},{"start":334.235,"end":344.987,"text":"吳牧林的軍配,詳細的數字我不清楚沒有這樣我知道6億多啦,但是我覺得這換寡也換不軍啦這邊我是提出這個議題,讓這個部長去了解一下"},{"start":348.928,"end":376.861,"text":"是,我們對於這些相關的應該要來跟地方政府來做跟地方政府無關啦,這個全部都是國防部編列預算對,預算是我們編列,但是要做怎麼樣的一個機制也是你們設定的,相關的牧林經費的發放也是你們制定我覺得這個換寡也換不均,這個請部長再去了解他有一些防治區的劃定,可能還是要協調一下這個制度還是出現問題的"},{"start":378.282,"end":385.491,"text":"那會後是不是再跟委員我請夜館的單位來跟委員多多請教好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1109,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長好。不管灰色地帶戰術或是蟒蛇戰略，基本上是在執行一個戰略清晰中的戰術模糊，蟒蛇什麼時候動不知道，牠要怎麼動也不知道。灰色當然就是一種模糊，所以我覺得不管是蟒蛇戰略或灰色地帶戰術，它的執行都是一個長期的過程，每天都會，逐步升高壓力，用多種不同的戰術去執行。先請教，這是一個長期的心理戰，也是一個長期的戰備準備的過程，變成常態化。部長，蟒蛇最怕什麼？你要思考，他出了一個蟒蛇戰略，你要知道蟒蛇怕什麼。"],["顧部長立雄：這個時候必須讓我思考一下蟒蛇最怕什麼。"],["邱委員志偉：你就用常識來判斷蟒蛇。"],["顧部長立雄：可能我對國防的議題可以回答，突然問我蟒蛇……"],["邱委員志偉：說的是戰略。"],["顧部長立雄：對於蟒蛇戰略，我認為不管國外或唐司令所發表的蟒蛇戰略就是說，它藉由各種複合式的手段，不斷的來進行軍事的恫嚇或灰色地帶的襲擾，針對性的軍演也好，或者常態性的戰備警巡或聯合戰備警巡也好，規模也越來越大，頻次越來越高。"],["邱委員志偉：對我們日常戰備是高強度而且是長期性的，對前線或每天幾乎都要備戰的狀態之下，我們的海空兵力的相關狀況要能夠掌握，這是一個高強度而且長期性的戰略，對我們前線的海空軍是一個非常大的壓力，這個部分最主要的目的就是讓國軍達到精疲力竭，消耗你日常準備戰力，我們有沒有相關的因應方式？"],["顧部長立雄：我之前應該也回答過了，我們對於這種消耗戰當然清楚這很明顯是它的策略之一，我們針對這種消耗戰的作為當然還是非常具有挑戰性，但我們會多利用載空，我們本來就每天都有載空機的訓練，也有律定的空中巡邏，任務艦也會出動，如果是威脅的狀況的話，我們利用地面的這些防空系統來進行追瞄，儘量的不要過度消耗我們的這些資源。"],["邱委員志偉：除了作戰部隊的高強度壓力之下，也要培養全民國防的戰鬥力，讓全民防衛能夠深入每一個國民，了解到我們面臨中國武力的蟒蛇策略，影響到我們國家安全，我們必須要團結，全民防衛這部分也要多一點相關的作為。另外，講到我選區的部分，空軍官校岡山機場高頻率的演練，會對周遭的市民朋友、鄰近區域造成噪音的影響，對生活造成影響，所以我也曾經思考要怎樣把機場周遭的這些回饋金或補償金的餅做大，全國有那麼多機場、那麼多的里，每天生活都受到飛機訓練起降的影響，這個部分是國防部哪個單位處理的？"],["顧部長立雄：我們對於這個部分當然都有一些睦鄰的經費。"],["邱委員志偉：我是說餅要做大，讓機制能夠更公平，有一些里要等20年才輪一次，部長要去了解一下整個對空軍機場周遭的睦鄰措施，我沒記錯的話，一年編6億元，這部分不夠，我希望能夠對這些生活受到空軍訓練影響的市民朋友有更多睦鄰經費的補助，請部長去了解一下。"],["顧部長立雄：睦鄰的經費、詳細的數字我不清楚。"],["邱委員志偉：六億多元，但我覺得這患寡也患不均，我提出這個議題讓部長去了解一下。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們對於這些相關的應該要跟地方政府……"],["邱委員志偉：這跟地方政府無關啦！這個全部都是國防部編列預算。"],["顧部長立雄：對，預算是我們編列，但是要做怎樣的……"],["邱委員志偉：機制也是你們設定的，相關的睦鄰經費發放也是你們制訂，我覺得患寡也患不均，請部長再去了解一下。"],["顧部長立雄：它有一些防制區的劃定可能還是要協調一下。"],["邱委員志偉：這個制度還是出現問題。"],["顧部長立雄：會後我請業管的單位跟委員多多請教。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員，部長請回。","接下來請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"156000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6379544c41aa63e2f65d49a24f4c608aef66e8eac7fc2cd0ece7ecaafb1c2cb07b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:41:59 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那個數位部你把它可以跨部會把它往樓下啦這樣的話對 這樣的話這個問題才會解決啦不要只有打炸打炸可是這個毒品在這裡是要戒屍防焚的情況之下非常嚴重的所以這個事情還有國建署還有那個警察那個那個警政署一定要負起這些責任不能殘害這些我們的下一代這是非常殘忍的"},{"start":395.287,"end":395.407,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1412,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（12時41分）謝謝主席，我請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["林委員國成：還有健康署署長及警政署代表。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員國成：邱部長，剛剛我們立法院的同事一直詢問電子煙的問題，確確實實新興行業是在電子煙的方面，因為這樣，所以主席特別排這個議程，也就是去凸顯這個新興行業的問題當然要解決，我也知道邱部長日理萬機，說實在的，你是管政策，那這個的主管機關就是國健署，所以署長你要替部長分憂解勞，既然這個問題這麼嚴重，那你要提出解決之道啊！不是讓我們立法委員來逼部長，當然部長要負全部政治責任，但是問題出來，署長一定要去做一些研究因應對策，因為菸害防制法的主管機關是你，當然部長要概括承受，可是你做得好，部長就不會被K嘛，我看到看邱部長很認真嘛，你知道嗎？所以署長，我們今天就來探討，說實在的，菸毒不分家，這有嚴重性，而電子煙就會成為真正的破口，所以我只有建議部長你要督促，你把食藥署跟相關單位找來，到底尼古丁是行政罰，或者這幾種毒品到底是屬於第幾級，你們要把它分得很清楚，如果是尼古丁那就是行政罰，如果是毒品、安非他命，那當然就一定是違反毒品管制的辦法。為什麼會說電子煙跟毒品有關？因為新興行業電子煙它可以藏很多毒品，根據刑事警察局1月份到8月份的統計共有1,415件，這當中有52.6%是藏有毒品，那就代表什麼？就代表這個問題非常嚴重。為什麼我要請警政署代表上來？當然有毒品警政署要去處理，而行政罰當然是國健署要去處理，這個部分怎麼解決呢？當然一定要統合所有的有關規定，所以請部長在行政院裡面成立一個統整的小組，新興行業一定要有新的方法去對待它，我覺得這個非常重要。就像前幾天10月18號在臺北市東湖，15歲的少年就是因為電子煙夾帶毒品，抽了以後車子一撞下去，很可憐欸，三死兩傷！這個是什麼？始作俑者就是電子煙的毒品作祟，所以這個部分非常非常重要。我還是真的非常期待，部長你管政策，當然說怪你做不好，這個對你也不公平，但是你管政策，你要責成你的健康署，你要跨部會的聯絡警政署還有食藥署，這是你可以統合的，把它歸納起來，新興行業自然就會消滅。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員國成：因為我們政府現在忽略一個問題，新興行業不是只有詐騙，詐騙當然是重點，但是這些電子煙也是破口，不能因為要防止詐騙，結果全部的精神都做這裡，其實電子煙的新興行業確確實實是有危害的，所以我要建議部長做統合工作，儘快把它做成一個規定，讓行政院做一個跨部會的結合。到底是誰要來主責？當然行政罰是國健署要處理，違反毒品的當然是刑事警察局他們要去做，如果統籌一個SOP，我想除了打擊犯罪，還能兼顧菸害防制法，這樣把它併起來，我相信這個問題是會解決的。部長，你同意我的說法嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，我非常同意。第一個，我先補充一下，很感謝召委排這個題目，衛福部跟相關單位都非常重視這個主題，而且也認為它是非常嚴重的，我剛剛只是說網路上的狀況超過我預期的那種嚴重，而不是說這個問題不嚴重，這要講清楚，所以我很感謝排這個主題。行政院也已經有這樣的一個反毒計畫，我們會看整個SOP是不是需要再做檢討，我們一定擔負起責任來做檢討，讓它更有效率、更快速，讓全民安心。"],["林委員國成：是啊！數位部你可以跨部會把它網羅下來，這樣的話……"],["邱部長泰源：數位部很……"],["林委員國成：這樣的話，這個問題才會解決。不要只有打詐、打詐，在毒品要借屍還魂的情況之下，問題非常嚴重。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員國成：部長，針對這件事情，國健署及警政署一定要負起這些責任，不能殘害我們的下一代，這是非常殘忍的，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員、謝謝署長跟部長。","接續我們請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"155999","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155999","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6393c8cc7abc8bebe3ea3bc5a9eeba56a866e8eac7fc2cd0ec4c05adb7ad1365b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"12:40:15 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對不對是 我剛剛跟前面其他委員報告就是說因為其他委員有提到封鎖的定義還有您剛剛提到這個是所謂的quarantine就是隔離的這種定義"},{"start":333.583,"end":358.112,"text":"這一個他們的海警船來試圖來進行對我們的船舶進行燈檢這些等等的行為來試圖在讓我們的就是說讓我們要主張的這個台灣主權的這個意涵被模糊讓他試圖用法律戰略方式來將台海的內水化的這種概念讓我們當然要警惕其實我覺得你剛剛強調認知的那個層面"},{"start":362.213,"end":388.955,"text":"好 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謝謝好 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基隆民你說你相信你的檢察官你要去看他們的心聲在你的可以把柯文哲的名字蓋起來"},{"start":87.799,"end":87.819,"text":"呃 這個我認為 呃"},{"start":111.7,"end":128.189,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導那這個檢查論壇我相信當然是這次檢查有檢查有這樣的意見那個我們這個檢查論壇就是給大家一個發出意見的一個平台那我也不曉得是不是"},{"start":129.189,"end":130.13,"text":"臺北地檢檢察官"},{"start":158.131,"end":172.082,"text":"但是因為這個實在是因為新聞實在是太社會太矚目了媒體在無所不用其極那他消息怎麼來的啊消息是不是正確我說實在我不知道"},{"start":172.881,"end":192.491,"text":"伯定伯定伯定你講的話馬上就會受到檢驗喔啓制書到時候出來的內容如果是這些媒體講的我跟你講全民都盯著看啦啓制書裡面如果內容是這個媒體先出來那不是北檢從哪邊來內容如果說相互的我們不能夠直接就認定就是因為有通靈啊或作夢啊要不然不是北檢是誰"},{"start":194.718,"end":220.035,"text":"這次的資料實在是太多了所以為什麼那麼多接觸為什麼一口就咬定就是檢察官或班人來來來看另外一位檢察官的啦事實上你如果去你的檢察官論壇看現在檢察官自己在反省的人真的很多我覺得我們對你們是有希望的要去多看反省的力量你看這個檢察官他怎麼說你剛剛提說你們是有約談的對不對然後你還澄清了叫這個檢察官在這說"},{"start":222.33,"end":242.789,"text":"他說那一篇你們這個自親文叫什麼北檢治島的大爛劇你們檢察官自己都這樣講啦他直接講說你如果偵查不公開你現在已經沒辦法實現了嘛那乾脆廢掉然後請法務部跟學院開一個叫做如何要如何學會被媒體經營你看多諷刺你自己檢查官就這樣說啦"},{"start":245.816,"end":254.819,"text":"那是因為三立的記者直接講阿他說經營你們北檢你們檢調經營7年阿那你沒有更正這個我們有約談喔跟委員報告這個有約談喔這個我們了解這個齁這個這個某姓的記者的記者馬姓的記者這個不是跑司法記者的齁我們不曉得他這個怎麼從何而來我們不曉得你亂講對不對"},{"start":271.172,"end":277.999,"text":"他這部分在北檢有約談過了對,他亂講嗎?亂講你們沒有一個責任這個有澄清喔,這個在9月16號的新聞稿有做一個粗暴訊息你澄清了也沒關係,人家這樣給你獻醉不只一個檢察官耶,你的北檢被人家打這有澄清什麼?不是我說不對,你這個有這樣嗎?"},{"start":292.293,"end":315.621,"text":"這個有澄清是否透明之干?我意思就是說你自己的部署被北檢這樣弄成煎脆配,大家在動作笑話,你就是這樣一個,然後你的檢察官還講說你根本就是一個北檢的制導的大爛劇,你都不相信?我們司法院委員會MG掙扎不夠的作為辦法第8條第1項第7款的做適度的一個澄清嘛,因為既然社會有這樣的一個捕風捉影的一種"},{"start":316.681,"end":341.328,"text":"所以我們有份讓你來做一個處理嗎?我認為你還有機會去補這個破網你不補的話就是剛中線講的沒有錯整個檢察官的形象就一直往下掉嘛我們也不希望看到這樣子喔我們希望檢察官是領人民的薪水行國家的公器他是好的我們台灣才有未來嘛是不是這樣?所以我做兩個建議第一個你剛才講你約了媒體來"},{"start":345.39,"end":354.306,"text":"剛剛民進黨立委都問你嘛你約了記者去他到底要不要講你剛剛那個答覆是有問題的啊你把他約來他到底是證人還是被告"},{"start":356.338,"end":379.585,"text":"是證人還被告?你約這個記者來是證人還被告?證人阿證人?證人是不是有作證的義務?阿他來啦!他有到場啦!那他有跟你講他的消息來源嗎?他有如實跟你講嗎?還是你自己找就打起來?這個時候我想檢察官因為我他的偵查的一個手段跟心證我也沒辦法去過問說你到底講什麼我又不能去過問"},{"start":380.728,"end":388.412,"text":"你會不會變成那個基層檢察官,變成個歷史罪人,你形象不錯的,你的形象是不錯的,你要去挽救你的,你這樣會影響到,對不對,要幫你檢查,要做事情,來,我做個具體建議,我看沒你的預算書裡面,檢察司啊,變那個醫生啊,一個檢察司變了,要一千多萬對不對,"},{"start":410.22,"end":420.181,"text":"檢察司會副司長有時間嗎來來來變成一千塊錢嘛對不對你第一個項目就是教育訓練費啊我一定會叫司長好好討論一下"},{"start":422.745,"end":424.446,"text":"你做了什麼檢討?做了什麼改進?要讓社會知道啊"},{"start":441.261,"end":460.661,"text":"有看到成果嗎?你把那個做出來的東西一個禮拜給我好不好?然後第二個我很具體的要求,我講實在,現在只有兩條路嘛,你再這樣繼續偵查不公開變成偵查前途路,這比預算就砍掉嘛。你檢察司這樣自己沒辦法保護自己,有負人民的請託啊。"},{"start":462.798,"end":487.061,"text":"這個費用就是要刪嘛這是一條路嘛第一個是把它做好嘛所以第一個你在一個禮拜內把你們做的怎麼樣去改善偵查不公開這個事情具體的你們的改善計畫或者已經有的給我好不好那第二個更重要喔要提出來提出來以後要怎麼去你們甚至要去辦幾堂這個公聽會或者座談會找專家學者來啊找你們一些形象好一點的啊跟這些北檢的檢察官講啊"},{"start":488.171,"end":489.511,"text":"主委好主委其實人民不是只有對檢察官"},{"start":515.747,"end":537.418,"text":"對NCC也有很高的期待NCC只要把那個公平做出來就好了嘛你看柯文哲這個事件甚至不要講柯文哲你往前推還有很多的司法案件媒體每天一個劇本後來很多都印證都錯的你現在手上很多檢舉案對不對媒體那個亂下那個檢舉案你會處理嗎都在處理當中所以沒有這個案子現在是有已經有結案的嗎"},{"start":543.188,"end":567.706,"text":"現在目前的話,因為都是在9月跟10月所發生的案件你現在將心比心,如果你是被影射、被作文章那個人,你會怎麼想?我沒有,我要求兩個,很簡單的第一個,速度加快,好不好?第一個,你的標準要是一致的你當初怎麼處罰中天的?中天有任何一個新聞有問題你就開始處罰嘛,罰則嘛對不對?後來就把台就關掉了嘛"},{"start":568.342,"end":570.044,"text":"市長我們都是依照換照辦法規定來處理啊"},{"start":580.635,"end":582.235,"text":"你現在你一個禮拜的送來現在到底有多少檢舉案你的進度是怎麼樣子"},{"start":610.401,"end":626.883,"text":"然後具體要求你速度要加快第二個更重要的人民現在都在我剛講過人民很簡單啊人民台灣人民的水準這麼高啊包括部長法務部有沒有好好做事情NCC有沒有做事情人民心中有一把尺啦你們本來形象都不錯的"},{"start":628.451,"end":628.571,"text":"法務部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時29分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好。你剛才說你相信你的檢察官，你應該也常常上去看剛剛宗憲提到的「檢察官論壇」，大家看一下這個畫面，這個作者名稱是一審的檢察官。他說，他事實上是在對你喊話，也是對北檢這些同仁在喊話，他說你們對於現今檢媒一體的亂象，這裡講的不只偵查不公開而已，他用一個非常非常重的字眼，叫做檢察官跟媒體現在是一體，媒體跟檢方變成一體這個亂象，你們到現在都沒有積極作為，讓檢察官已經失去了人民的信任，把檢察官的名器踩在地上，這會使得你們會變成檢方的罪人。所以，部長，一方面你說你相信你的檢察官，那你應該去看他們的心聲。","第二個，可以把「柯文哲」的名字蓋起來，現在不是只有在幫柯文哲講話的問題，我們在幫臺灣的法治，幫所有的檢察官講話，檢察官領的是人民的納稅錢，對不對？是國家名器。本來臺灣司法是很受敬重的，可是你看這次這整個偵查不公開，這幾年搞成這樣子，你不會覺得難過嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指導。至於「檢察官論壇」，我相信當然這是檢察官有這樣的意見，這個檢察官論壇就是給大家一個發抒意見的平臺嘛，那我也不曉得是不是臺北地檢的檢察官，這個我也不清楚，但我想整個偵查不公開原則，我想我們都會確認。像我在處理媒體，我從來不給獨家，我們都是直接落實發言人的政策，全部媒體……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你可以叫北檢跟你學啊！北檢，你看，從8月30日到現在每天一個版本。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不給這些，尤其檯面下去給，我們是完全禁止這一種的行為……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，現在人民……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是這新聞實在是太受社會矚目了，媒體就無所不用其極，那他的消息怎麼來的？消息是不是正確？說實在我不知道，這個我不清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你講的話馬上就會受到檢驗，到時候起訴書出來的內容如果是這些媒體講的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我沒有介入個案，我沒有介入個案。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，全民都盯著看啦！起訴書裡面的內容如果是這些媒體先出來，那不是北檢的話是從哪邊來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分內容如果是相符的，我們不能夠直接就認定這是偵查……"],["張委員啓楷：若是沒有，除非他有通靈或作夢……"],["鄭部長銘謙：洩出去的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：要不然不是北檢是誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：接觸資料的人實在是太多了，所以那麼多人接觸，為什麼一口咬定就是檢察官或是辦案團隊外洩？這一點我是比較，比較不認同……"],["張委員啓楷：來啦！部長，來看另外一位檢察官。如果你去檢察官論壇看就知道，現在檢察官自己在反省的人真的很多，我覺得我們對你們是有希望的，要去多看反省的力量。你看這個檢察官他怎麼說？你剛剛提到你們是有約談，對不對？然後你們還澄清了，結果這個檢察官在這裡說，那一篇你們的自清文叫什麼？「北檢自導的大爛劇」！你們檢察官自己都這樣講，他直接說如果偵查不公開現在已經沒辦法實現了，那乾脆廢掉，然後請法務部跟學院開一個「要如何學會被媒體經營」的課程，你看多諷刺？你自己的檢察官都這樣講了，那是因為三立的記者直接講，他說經營你們北檢跟檢調7年了，那你有沒有更正？"],["鄭部長銘謙：三立這個我們有約談，跟委員報告，這個有約談，經過我們了解，這個馬姓的記者不是跑司法的記者，我們不曉得他這個是怎麼……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你說他亂講？"],["鄭部長銘謙：怎麼從何而來我們不曉得。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，你是說他亂講，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他這部分北檢有約談過了。"],["張委員啓楷：對，他亂講，但亂講你們沒有追究責任。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有有有，這個有澄清，這個在9月16號的新聞稿有做一個初步的……"],["張委員啓楷：對，你澄清之後就沒有事情了嗎？人家這樣打你耳光，而且不只一個檢察官，你整個北檢被人家打……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有澄清什麼……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，我是說部長，你只有這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有澄清什麼唾面自乾，真的沒有，真的沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣澄清就好了喔？我意思就是說，你自己的部屬跟北檢被人家這樣打臉，把你們當作笑話，你就是這樣一個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們是執法……"],["張委員啓楷：然後你的檢察官還講，根本就是「北檢自導的大爛劇」，你都不會傷心？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是執法人員，我們依據「偵查不公開作業辦法」第八條第一項第七款做適度的澄清，因為既然社會有這樣一種捕風捉影的……所以我們有分案來做處理。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，說實在的，我認為你還有機會去補這個破網，你不補的話，就是剛剛宗憲講的沒有錯，整個檢察官的形象就一直往下掉。我們也不希望看到這樣，我們希望檢察官是領人民的薪水，行國家的公器，他是好的，我們臺灣才有未來，是不是這樣？所以我們是對你有期望。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指導。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我做兩個建議，第一個，你剛才講你約了媒體來，剛剛連民進黨立委都問你，你約了記者去，他到底要不要講？你剛剛那個答復是有問題的，你把他約來，他到底是證人還是被告？是證人還是被告？你約這個記者來是證人還是被告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：證人。"],["張委員啓楷：證人，證人是不是有作證的義務？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他來啦，他有到場，他有問啊。"],["張委員啓楷：他來，那他有跟你講他的消息來源嗎？他有如實的跟你講嗎？還是你自己嘴巴就塞起來，他跟你說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想檢察官有他偵查的一個手段跟心證，我也沒辦法去過問說，你到底講什麼，我又不能去過問。"],["張委員啓楷：你的整個形象這樣被人家打臉，整個形象掉到這樣子，你都不去關心，你會不會變成那個基層檢察官講的，變成一個歷史罪人？你形象不錯的，部長，你的形象是不錯的，你要去挽救你的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣會影響到，對不對？你也要幫你們檢察官做事情。我做個具體建議，我看明年的預算書裡面，檢察司編的預算，一個檢察司編了一億一千多萬，對不對？檢察司的副司長是不是有來？編一億一千多萬，對不對？你第一個項目就是教育訓練費，部長跟司長好好討論一下，偵查不公開被人家嫌到這樣，然後漏洞那麼多，訓練一下嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，有，這個都有在訓練，新聞發言人這個部分，我們每年都有定期在受訓。"],["張委員啓楷：有在受訓？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有、有、有，這個因為我們從事……"],["張委員啓楷：你們做了什麼檢討，做了什麼改進，要讓社會知道啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們有在就發布新聞……"],["張委員啓楷：有在做嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，有在做。"],["張委員啓楷：有看到成果嗎？你把做出來的東西，一個禮拜給我，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["張委員啓楷：然後第二個，我很具體的要求，我說實在的，現在只有兩條路，你再這樣繼續偵查不公開變成偵查全都露，這筆預算就砍掉。檢察司這樣自己沒辦法保護自己，有負人民的請託，這個費用就是要刪，這是一條路；第二個是把它做好。所以第一個，你在一個禮拜內把你們做的，怎麼樣去改善偵查不公開這個事情，你們的具體改善計畫或者已經有的給我，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要，提出來以後要怎麼去……你們甚至要去辦幾堂公聽會或者座談會，找專家學者來，找你們一些形象好一點的跟這些北檢的檢察官講，不要再這樣搞了，把自己都搞垮了，好不好？部長，一個禮拜內給我資料，好不好？要不然的話，這筆預算一億一千多萬是一定要砍的啦。","抱歉，還有點時間，我問一個相關的議題，請NCC的……沒有，主委你不要上來，主秘上來。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主秘，其實人民不是只有對檢察官有期望，對NCC也有很高的期待，NCC只要做到公平就好了嘛。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你看柯文哲這個事件，甚至不要講柯文哲，你往前推還有很多的司法案件，媒體每天一個劇本，後來很多都印證是錯的，你現在手上很多檢舉案，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：媒體那種亂象，那些檢舉案你有處理嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：都在處理當中。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在沒有任何一個案子已經結案了嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：現在的話，因為都是在9月跟10月所發生的案件……"],["張委員啓楷：你的速度不會太慢嗎？你現在將心比心，如果你是被影射、被做文章那個人，你會怎麼想？我有兩個要求，很簡單，第一個，速度加快，好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你的標準要一致的。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你當初怎麼處罰中天的？中天任何一個新聞有問題，你就開始處罰，罰責，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：後來就把新聞臺關掉了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在的標準有沒有一樣？你最近這兩、三個月的新聞……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：一樣，都一樣，因為我們是……"],["張委員啓楷：到現在沒有處理，你以前……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們都是依照換照辦法的規定來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：現在人民看起來就是非常不公平嘛，我是資深媒體人，我怎麼不知道？你現在……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：一樣啊，因為它是9月跟10月發生的案件……"],["張委員啓楷：所以NCC一個案子，兩、三個月處理不好嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們以前都是按照這樣的程序在做。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，以前處理中天很快，以前有人去檢舉，那個什麼曾文水庫有在倒什麼東西……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有啦！那都是一樣，都要經過……"],["張委員啓楷：你們馬上就處理完，弄到後來整個臺都關掉了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是啦，那都是一樣的程序。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，我要求兩個東西，請你一個禮拜內送來，包括現在到底有多少檢舉案？你的進度是怎麼樣子？然後我具體要求，速度要加快。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要的，我剛才講過，人民很簡單，臺灣人民的水準這麼高，包括部長，法務部有沒有好好做事情，NCC有沒有做事情，人民心中有一把尺啦。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們本來形象都不錯的，你們要把自己的形象弄得更好。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你一定要一致，最簡單的方式，以前中天怎麼處理，這一次有些造謠的或者是很明顯的，人家檢舉你查，確實也有狀況的，該罰的趕快罰。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。"],["張委員啓楷：這個對整個臺灣社會也好，你罰了他之後，他去改正嘛，是不是這樣？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們都會公平處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們共同努力，為臺灣的法治，為臺灣媒體有一個好的環境共同努力，好不好？多謝。多謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，請留步。因為今天部長跟在座的都是偵辦案件的人，等於是執行法律的，但我們不能說自己偵辦案件的人卻自己帶頭犯罪，因為違反偵查不公開是犯罪！所以部長，這部分可能就要請你們注意，不能夠講自己在維護正義，然後自己卻其實在傷害正義。我請教部長一個很簡單的問題，教唆他人犯罪是不是成立教唆犯，對吧？部長，這個你應該懂。好，那如果跟犯罪之人有犯意聯絡或行為分攤，是不是成立共同正犯？前面教唆犯會成立共犯關係，但是後面如果有犯意聯絡跟行為分攤，會成為共同正犯關係，我想這個應該沒有問題。所以，如果偵查不公開規範的是公務員，講這句話沒有錯，可是當非公務員跟公務員共犯一個案子的時候，這位非公務員也會成立犯罪。所以我跟部長提醒，我們國家的法律有這樣的規定，不要認為很多人在外面傳說，這個東西只處罰公務員，不處罰非公務員，所以我怎麼做都沒關係，但事實上不要忘記了，我國的刑法還有規定共同正犯跟共犯這兩種東西，所以你只要跟公務員共同正犯或共犯犯罪的話，本身也是成立犯罪。我想我這個話就是跟部長建議，我國還是有這樣的規定，今天我們的質詢可能讓部長不是很開心，但我想我們盡到我們的義務，我們必須把這個東西點出來。好，謝謝部長。","下一位我們請廖偉翔、廖偉翔、廖偉翔不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","請陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐不在。","請高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅不在。","請林思銘、林思銘、林思銘不在。","請林淑芬、林淑芬、林淑芬不在。","今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速將資料交給個別委員及本會。","委員林思銘、陳冠廷所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。另外，列席本次會議的全國律師聯合會律師李奇有提出書面，也一併列入公報紀錄。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},{"id":"155995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63c181a7215dc4521cea3bc5a9eeba56a866e8eac7fc2cd0ec304a0333d62eca4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:33:13 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Boe你覺得會聽誰的?以船舶的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有委員所擔心的這個…John Boe我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了"},{"start":541.701,"end":545.283,"text":"你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?我剛跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心這個國安的風險那你們打算怎麼做?你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊?"},{"start":567.165,"end":585.195,"text":"報告委員這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣"},{"start":586.095,"end":604.635,"text":"然後呢?船舶注射在台灣,船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制長榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題"},{"start":606.021,"end":633.406,"text":"就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到航港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢"},{"start":635.365,"end":659.684,"text":"這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題"},{"start":662.602,"end":690.681,"text":"這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題"},{"start":692.236,"end":705.702,"text":"如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫"},{"start":708.68,"end":722.31,"text":"台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嗎我們要具體的對策嗎不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嗎包括經濟部"},{"start":723.717,"end":739.662,"text":"你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到"},{"start":741.612,"end":767.112,"text":"跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送"},{"start":770.215,"end":783.47,"text":"在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人"},{"start":784.531,"end":809.88,"text":"那另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了齁但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好"},{"start":810.9,"end":817.164,"text":"主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有"},{"start":830.232,"end":854.619,"text":"就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中部長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完了但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊"},{"start":855.598,"end":866.515,"text":"這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁"},{"start":867.642,"end":882.331,"text":"我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":999,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時21分）謝謝主席。我先請教數位部的主秘。"],["主席：請數位部主秘。"],["胡主任秘書貝蒂：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：主秘，我在過去兩年的時間裡面，看到台馬之間的海底電纜被破壞的次數已經有二十多次，這當然也非常引起國際軍事專家的關注，甚至認為這其實就是屬於灰色地帶的一些侵略行為。我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長，就很明確的表達台馬海纜，照我們CI的定義，它應該完全符合關鍵基礎設施的定義，應該要列入。今年5月的時候，我也要求國安局的蔡局長，包括國土辦，儘速從行政院跟國安的角度來研議是不是要納入。又經過半年的時間，我想請問一下主秘，數位部對於台馬海纜列關鍵基礎設施，目前有沒有進度？"],["胡主任秘書貝蒂：謝謝委員一直以來的關心，有關台馬海纜123號是不是要列入關鍵基礎設施的這個部分，我們最近也把相關的檢討報告送行政院，行政院在9月23日已經核定，將台馬海纜123號納入關鍵基礎設施。所以我們後續會配合行政院的核定，要求電信事業做好相關安全維護計畫的修正。"],["洪委員申翰：本席很高興聽到台馬海纜列為CI終於有進度了，這部分我們當然給予肯定，尤其這事涉國家安全的問題。我們也都知道列入CI之後有幾個重要工作，包括定期評估風險的威脅，也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效等等這些事情，我們希望數位部接下來在台馬海纜的工作上面，都可以把它做好。這部分應該是可以承諾的吧？"],["胡主任秘書貝蒂：我們會持續督導電信業者做好這件事情。"],["洪委員申翰：接下來，我想請教國安局、交通部跟經濟部。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：三位在部裡面的長官，其實一直以來，本席關注的不只是關鍵基礎設施，還包括整個臺灣在物資運輸上面，尤其是這方面的風險。臺灣是個海島，很多事情都要靠海運。上個星期我曾質詢國安局蔡局長，我提出的問題是，如果臺灣運送貨物的這些貨櫃船、商船、散裝船，因為成本的考慮、管理的問題，開始大量聘用中國籍船員，當台海發生緊張狀況的時候，你們覺得這些中國籍船員，會聽這些航商的，還是聽中共政府的？上禮拜蔡明彥局長很明確地回復本席，這當然是一個國安風險，是要注意的問題，他也承諾國安局會分析這個國安風險，也會向相關部會示警，提醒大家這是一個危機。本席想先問一下交通部，國籍船商的臺灣船員整體比例，目前看起來可能已經低於20%，交通部有沒有掌握這個問題？"],["陳副局長賓權：這個部分我們有掌握。"],["洪委員申翰：國籍航商旗下的船員國籍狀況，具體來說，中國與臺灣船員的比例大概是多少？"],["陳副局長賓權：精確的數字可能還要再回去查證一下，是不是事後再向委員回復？"],["洪委員申翰：比例是誰多、誰少？"],["陳副局長賓權：這部分我目前沒辦法確定。"],["洪委員申翰：你不是說有掌握嗎？"],["陳副局長賓權：但是他們和臺灣船員的比例，這部分沒辦法確定。"],["洪委員申翰：所以對中國籍船員的狀況，交通部並沒有掌握，是不是？"],["陳副局長賓權：人數應該是有統計，但是詳細的數字，現在我手邊沒有這個資料。"],["洪委員申翰：航港局有來嗎？"],["陳副局長賓權：有，我就是航港局的。"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼航港局不清楚這個數據？"],["陳副局長賓權：我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字，不好意思。"],["洪委員申翰：剛好沒帶到這個數字？好，本席再問經濟部。經濟部有沒有掌握國營事業的船運團隊？目前運輸船隊有多少中國籍船員？因為你們需要運送很多鋼鐵、能源，這是由國營事業的船隊負責。你們有沒有掌握？"],["胡司長文中：中油、臺電的部分，我手邊沒有資料。因為中鋼最近有中運的勞工事件，我不知道中運的中國籍船員數目，但是臺灣籍的比例超過八成。"],["洪委員申翰：包括FOC船喔！"],["胡司長文中：是。"],["洪委員申翰：兩位司長，本席給你們看幾個數據，我們先看2012年的報告，這是2012年海洋大學的報告。它提到臺灣航商擁有的船隻，86%是登記在其他國家，簡單來說就是所謂的FOC船，相較之下，臺灣航商只有14%的船是登記在臺灣。在當時，就是2012年的時候，1,000噸以上的外籍FOC船，聘用六千兩百多位中國籍船員，占比是63%，只有一千七百多位臺灣籍船員，占比只有18%，這是來自學術單位的報告。","所以本席也想問航港局副局長，這是12年前的數據喔！你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高？中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高？"],["陳副局長賓權：外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點。目前登記的國籍船大概是100艘左右，最近購船的比例有增加……"],["洪委員申翰：中國籍船員有沒有提高？"],["陳副局長賓權：這部分要向委員致歉，我們還要回去找一下。但是船的部分，就我的理解，外籍船的比例是這樣。"],["洪委員申翰：所以看起來，現在航港局對中國籍船員的狀況是未知的、沒有掌握，本席這樣說應該算公允吧？"],["陳副局長賓權：應該不能這樣說。因為我督導的是船舶這一塊，船員是另外一位副局長督導，所以這部分我可能要回去查一下再向委員回報。"],["洪委員申翰：副局長，我們今天在國防外交委員會，談的當然是國安問題，其實國安局也說了，這當然是一個國安問題，但本席不知道為什麼航港局被問到這個問題的時候，卻是所有的事情都不知道。"],["陳副局長賓權：回去之後，我把相關數據整理出來再向委員回復，好不好？"],["洪委員申翰：好。副局長，本席告訴你，我們之前有向航港局要相關資料，就是我們的國籍船商所屬各個國籍的船員人數資料，之前航港局不願意提供給我們，現在你承諾會提供，對不對？"],["陳副局長賓權：是，我們回去整理一下再提供給委員。"],["洪委員申翰：什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳副局長賓權：一週內好不好？因為我們還要再會……"],["洪委員申翰：一週內可以提供給我們辦公室？"],["陳副局長賓權：是。"],["洪委員申翰：好。本席要問各位同樣的問題，你們覺得這些中國籍的船員，當臺海緊張的時候，他們會聽老共的？還是聽臺灣船商的指揮？副局長，你覺得？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然會聽老共的。"],["洪委員申翰：交通部的代表，你們覺得會聽誰的？"],["陳副局長賓權：以船舶專業來說的話，應該是要聽船長的指揮，但如果船長是中國籍船員的話，可能會有委員擔心的這個問題。"],["洪委員申翰：本席告訴你，現在有很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我剛剛聽到這個賴世保委員講說這個民進黨要往這個大麻合法化的方向去走"},{"start":14.11,"end":32.099,"text":"我送他八個字胡說八道危言聳聽你身為民進黨籍的這一個部會首長遇到這種事情隨便亂講的馬上要澄清啊馬上要駁斥啊什麼叫民進黨要往大麻合法化方向去走亂講我現在來討論這一個電子煙的問題電子煙"},{"start":42.363,"end":55.989,"text":"這個按照這個媒體的報導去年3月這個煙毒防治法這個通過之後去年3月到今年的9月稽查了50萬件開罰了1247件成案率0.0025%"},{"start":64.229,"end":77.956,"text":"全國警方7-9月同一期間查獲喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍剛剛委員也都有在問為什麼落差會這麼大為什麼成案率這麼低"},{"start":82.622,"end":100.751,"text":"各位委員報告我是國民健康署其實在這個電子煙的這個執行是依《煙害防治法》來做執行所以它的行政程序跟行政的調查部分跟警政署的這個《毒品防治條例》是有不一樣的所以說你開罰這麼低"},{"start":104.372,"end":124.019,"text":"是法律有問題還是執行有問題其實這個是因為要進行行政的一些誠信跟約詢所以是程序上是比較長那我再問你這我剛剛都聽到了50萬件次裡面網路的這個查竊案件說3萬多件次是不是比例太低"},{"start":125.27,"end":147.341,"text":"我剛才聽到說未來的你們的目標在於這個網路上面的查緝那為什麼網路上面的查緝會這麼的低我先問你你們現在裁罰的話網路上的裁罰是裁罰買家跟賣家而已嗎有沒有處罰平台有有處罰平台嗎有處罰平台的案例有多少61件61件那處罰多少錢40萬開始40萬開始對所以61件每一件都40萬開始嗎是"},{"start":155.677,"end":174.338,"text":"這個可不可以用這個煙案防治法來做處罰那為什麼才41件你是不是在網路上買電子煙非常非常的容易我只要在網路上面我只要Google電子煙網購一大堆資訊都出來了還跟你推薦說有哪一些平台是你可以去買的"},{"start":175.419,"end":201.888,"text":"你們有沒有看過委員我們很清楚這個狀況都很清楚那為什麼這個情況會這麼的氾濫所以我們跟平臺業者是很密集的在開會那我也跟委員報告我們甚至跟他們建立這個綠色通道大家互拋一些keywords跟相關的訊息確實我們需要按照這一個國建署的這個資料去年底去年的大概9月到12月"},{"start":203.475,"end":217.304,"text":"這個有違法的這個網路上賣電子業的這個主要的平臺集中在Facebook、IG還有露天平臺這三個平臺去年底三個月的案件比例高達九成"},{"start":218.397,"end":232.088,"text":"對,它也是我們開罰最多的才41件啊才61件啊但是這個有相當多的約尋的程序這個我不太相信說什麼約尋的程序你去查了幾件"},{"start":234.079,"end":262.534,"text":"譬如說你查了200件那最後這個譬如說約尋了這個成案41件61件那我可以接受那你們總共約尋了幾件查了幾件在網路上查緝就是3萬多件3萬多件但是因為我們要從行政的採取上面我們要約尋賣家還有所以按照這個煙害防治法第30條就可以來做處罰了嗎對按照它有刊登"},{"start":263.513,"end":291.279,"text":"的部分就進行網路業者的採訪現在按照打造專法只要是境外的網路平臺最遲要在今年的10月31號要以書面指定法律代表登記就是說每一個平臺你們都找得到人他都有法律的代表過去常常講說是境外查不到沒辦法罰"},{"start":293.171,"end":312.684,"text":"可不可以從11月1號開始全面對違規的廣告平台要去開罰我們已經開始在積極的開罰我們會加強這不成比例嘛這三萬多件而已啊是網路比較難查還是實體比較難查我們兩個雙頭都並進那為什麼落差會這麼大"},{"start":319.702,"end":346.458,"text":"因為這個網路的稽查的這個frequency我們是由中央這邊一直不斷的在稽查那地方呢47件的實體稽查是由地方進行實體稽查所以我們有分工合作我是有分工啦對那是我是跟你講就是說電子煙在網路上買很方便現在買賣電子煙有沒有違法有當然違法那為什麼我們查這個在網路上找這個電子煙到處都買得到"},{"start":351.668,"end":372.546,"text":"就表示他的處罰不夠重嘛好,我們會加強,一定會加強因為我們也看到這個問題的嚴重性我再問一下部長最高檢察署在今年的這個7月有發了一個新聞稿這個問一下現在含尼古丁成分、電子煙的製造、輸入、販賣、轉讓等行為現在有沒有顯示責任"},{"start":378.148,"end":384.092,"text":"含電子煙成分、含尼古丁成分的電子煙製造、輸入、販賣、轉讓等行為有沒有負刑事責任?這不是很簡單的問題嗎?因為自從煙害"},{"start":404.717,"end":423.479,"text":"這個原來防治法修正通過之後有關於電子煙的部分全部都是行政划環那就產生一個法律問題也就是說它修正前如果已經移送到地檢署的案子在還沒有修正前它其實是用要司法的行者來處理"},{"start":424.56,"end":439.782,"text":"那去年3月之後呢?3月之後就產生一個法律上的爭議那有關衛福部曾經發一個文給我們就是說這個要認為應該要適用這個煙害防治法行政划款來處理還是只有行政法嗎?對"},{"start":441.144,"end":455.775,"text":"我們把這個法律議案交給最高檢署來做研議研議到最後的一個結果因為包括實務上的運作法案的判決都發生了起義最後最高檢署達成一個共識就是"},{"start":456.015,"end":457.636,"text":"可是我按照這個最高檢察署的新聞稿"},{"start":479.482,"end":502.821,"text":"那你們認為說這個要不要負刑事責任?跟委員報告,因為這個主責機關是這個衛福部好,那我來問衛福部,來邱部長含泥骨電成分、電子煙的製造、輸入、販賣、轉賣等行為是否要負刑事責任?是否要修要事法?你的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":504.245,"end":517.876,"text":"我的態度當然就是要人家管理人家管理那要不要修要事法要不要修要事法還是就是按照這個現在就只有行政法而已我們的態度怎麼樣"},{"start":519.861,"end":548.198,"text":"報告委員那個因為在這個那個冤害防治法過了以後它事實上已經是不屬於藥事法處理的範圍我當然知道啊所以最高檢察署才會有這個信用稿出來嘛因為在實務上有的起訴有的不起訴有的還起訴嘛目中一示啊那現在主管機關是衛福部嘛所以我問衛福部的態度就是說要不要現在是行政法那要不要修改藥事法變成刑法嘛刑法的處罰要不要要不要往這個方向去走"},{"start":550.939,"end":575.484,"text":"這立場、態度、政策啊我問一下部長我想人家管理是必要的啦那看用什麼方式也要合乎他一個適用的法令啦現在的法令是用煙害防治法那煙害防治法就目前是煙害防治法就是行政法那現在高檢署他的問題就在於說每個法院判出來不一樣啊那所以勒"},{"start":581.038,"end":604.943,"text":"所以你們總是有個方向嘛沒有方向沒有跟委員報告沒有方向這個問題就繼續嚴重下去啊行法這件事情它是行政法是比較能夠快速跟簡易的去面對這個問題所以為什麼我們現在態度還是用行政法來做所以不打算用修改要事法就對了嗯"},{"start":608.228,"end":631.158,"text":"我想我們都可以來研議啦,看怎麼樣能夠管理好,然後快速,那目前就是有法已經有...你們知不知道中央檢察署這個新聞稿,知道嗎?7月份的,知不知道?阿對阿,現在兩個都會過去了,到底衛福態度是怎麼樣?沒有態度?那難怪這個這麼氾濫阿"},{"start":634.008,"end":649.371,"text":"好 那個主席要不要私底下再跟我們留言然後回溯一下因為已經超過5分鐘了我看其他人都講很久阿有講很久阿我當然是要謹慎處理我都知道那個態度跟方向阿嚴加管理我知道有效管理這個是絕對堅持的原則那在至於說這對我來講齁 這個不是我要的答案"},{"start":671.495,"end":686.546,"text":"請你們來我辦公室做個說明跟報告好不好?你們的方向是怎麼樣?想在這邊那我也沒有個答案再問下去今天有點不好意思但是這個問題很嚴重實務上也出現了問題"},{"start":691.445,"end":708.946,"text":"有的起訴有的不起訴有的還起訴所以最高檢察處才會發這個新聞稿而且大家都開過會啦阿兩個月都兩個月之後過去了一樣大概沒有一個方向阿這個問題是很嚴重我希望大家一起來做處理好不好好謝謝我們李委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1271,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時21分）謝謝主席，我們請衛福部的邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["李委員坤城：然後法務部檢察司的郭司長，先請這兩位。部長好，司長好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長，我剛剛聽到賴士葆委員講，說民進黨要往大麻合法化的方向去走，我送他8個字，胡說八道！危言聳聽！你身為民進黨籍的部會首長，遇到這種隨便亂講的事情，馬上要澄清啊！馬上要駁斥啊！什麼叫做民進黨要往大麻合法化方向去走？亂講！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["李委員坤城：我現在來討論電子煙的問題，電子煙按照媒體的報導，去年3月菸害防制法通過之後，去年3月到今年9月稽查了50萬件，開罰了1,247件，成案率0.0025%。全國警方7到9月同一期間查獲喪屍煙彈違法案件681件，是衛福部的2.3倍，剛剛委員也都有在問，為什麼落差會這麼大？為什麼成案率這麼低？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，我是國民健康署，其實電子煙是依菸害防制法來做執行，所以它的行政程序及行政調查的部分，跟警政署以毒品防制條例是有不一樣的。當然部長……"],["李委員坤城：對，所以我說你開罰這麼低是法律有問題，還是執行有問題？"],["賈副署長淑麗：其實這個是因為要進行行政的一些程序和約詢，所以程序上是比較長的。"],["李委員坤城：那我再問你，我剛才都聽到了，50萬件次裡面，網路的查緝案件有三萬多件次，是不是？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是。"],["李委員坤城：比例太低。我剛剛有聽到，未來你們的目標在於網路上面的查緝，那為什麼網路上面的查緝會這麼低？我先問你，你們現在裁罰的話，網路上的裁罰是裁罰買家和賣家而已嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：還有網路平臺。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有處罰平臺？"],["賈副署長淑麗：有。"],["李委員坤城：有處罰平臺嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：有。"],["李委員坤城：處罰平臺的案例有多少？"],["賈副署長淑麗：61件。"],["李委員坤城：61件，那處罰多少錢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：40萬開始。"],["李委員坤城：40萬開始？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以61件，每一件都40萬開始嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是。"],["李委員坤城：這個可不可以用菸害防制法來做處罰？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是，是用菸害防制法。"],["李委員坤城：那為什麼才41件？"],["賈副署長淑麗：61件。"],["李委員坤城：你知不知道在網路上買電子煙非常非常容易？我只要在網路上面google「電子煙網購」，一大堆資訊都出來了，還跟你推薦有哪一些平臺是你可以去買的，你們有沒有看過？"],["賈副署長淑麗：委員，我們很清楚這個狀況，所以我們……"],["李委員坤城：都很清楚，那為什麼情況會這麼氾濫？"],["賈副署長淑麗：所以我們與平臺業者是很密集地在開會，我也跟委員報告，我們甚至跟他們建立了綠色通道，大家互拋一些keywords和相關的訊息，確實，我們需要再……"],["李委員坤城：按照國健署的資料，去年9月到12月有違法在網路上賣電子煙的，主要的平臺集中在Facebook、IG還有露天平臺，這3個平臺去年底3個月的案件，比例高達九成。"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，它也是我們開罰最多的。"],["李委員坤城：才41件啊！"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，61件中……"],["李委員坤城：才61件啊！"],["賈副署長淑麗：但是這個有相當多的約詢程序。"],["李委員坤城：我不太相信什麼約詢的程序，你去查了幾件？比如說你查了200件，最後成案41件、61件，那我可以接受，你們總共約詢了幾件？查了幾件？"],["賈副署長淑麗：在網路上查緝就是3萬多件，3萬多件，但是因為我們從行政的裁處上面，我們要約詢賣家，還有刊登廣告……"],["李委員坤城：所以按照菸害防制法第三十條就可以來做處罰了嘛？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，按照它有刊登的部分，進行網路業者的裁罰。"],["李委員坤城：現在按照打詐專法，只要是境外的網路平臺，最遲要在今年10月31日以書面指定法律代表登記，就是說每一個平臺你們都找得到人，它都有法律的代表。過去常常講說這個是境外，查不到，沒辦法罰，可不可以從11月1日開始，全面對違規的廣告平臺去開罰？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們已經開始積極地開罰。"],["李委員坤城：案件太少了啊！"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們會加強。"],["李委員坤城：這不成比例嘛！"],["賈副署長淑麗：好，委員，我們會加強。"],["李委員坤城：三萬多件而已啊！是網路比較難查，還是實體比較難查？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們兩個是雙頭並進。"],["李委員坤城：那為什麼落差會這麼大？"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為網路稽查的這個frequency，我們是由中央這邊一直不斷地在稽查，地方的話，47件的實體稽查是由地方進行實體稽查，所以我們有分工合作的部分。"],["李委員坤城：我知道有分工啦！我是跟你講，電子煙在網路上買很方便，現在買賣電子煙有沒有違法？"],["賈副署長淑麗：有，當然違法。"],["李委員坤城：那為什麼我們在網路上打「電子煙」，到處都買得到？就表示它的處罰不夠重嘛！"],["賈副署長淑麗：好，我們會加強，一定會加強，因為我們也看到這個問題的嚴重性。"],["李委員坤城：我再問一下部長，最高檢察署在今年7月有發一個新聞稿，請問含尼古丁成分電子煙的製造、輸入、販賣、轉讓等行為，現在有沒有刑事責任？含尼古丁成分電子煙的製造、輸入、販賣、轉讓等行為，有沒有負刑事責任？有沒有？這不是很簡單的問題嗎？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，自從菸害防制法修正通過之後，有關於電子煙的部分全部都是行政罰鍰，那就產生一個法律問題，也就是說它修正前如果已經移送到地檢署的案子，在還沒有修正前其實是用藥事法的刑責來處理，但是……"],["李委員坤城：去年3月之後呢？通過之後呢？"],["郭司長永發：3月之後就會產生一個法律上的爭議，衛福部曾經發一個文給我們，認為這個應該要適用菸害防制法行政罰鍰來處理。"],["李委員坤城：還是只有行政罰嘛！"],["郭司長永發：對，我們把這個法律議案交給最高檢署來做研議，研議到最後的結果，因為包括實務上的運作、法院的判決都發生了歧異，最後最高檢署達成一個共識，就是從輕處理，就電子煙不含其他藥品或毒品的情況之下，或者沒有宣稱療效的類菸品案件，它的相關事實和法律適用如果有疑義的話，從輕處理，眼前大概講……"],["李委員坤城：那就是行政罰。"],["郭司長永發：就是行政罰。"],["李委員坤城：可是按照最高檢察署的新聞稿，你們認為這個要不要負刑事責任？"],["郭司長永發：因為主責機關是衛福部。"],["李委員坤城：好，我來問衛福部。邱部長，含尼古丁成分電子煙的製造、輸入、販賣、轉讓等行為，是否要負刑事責任？是否要修藥事法？您的態度是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我的態度當然就是要嚴加管理。"],["李委員坤城：嚴加管理，要不要修藥事法？"],["邱部長泰源：我們來看法……"],["李委員坤城：要不要修藥事法？還是就按照現在只有行政罰而已？你們的態度怎麼樣？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，因為在菸害防制法過了以後，它事實上已經不屬於藥事法處理的範圍。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道啊！所以最高檢察署才會有這個新聞稿出來嘛！因為在實務上，有的起訴，有的不起訴，有的緩起訴，莫衷一是啊！現在主管機關是衛福部，所以我問衛福部的態度，現在是行政罰，要不要修改藥事法，變成刑罰？刑罰的處罰，要不要？要不要往這個方向去走？這是立場、態度、政策啊！我問一下部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我想嚴加管理是必要的啦！看用什麼方式，也要合乎它適用的法令，現在的法令是用菸害防制法，菸害防制法就目前是沒有……"],["李委員坤城：菸害防制法就是行政罰，但是問題就在於說，每個法院判出來不一樣啊！所以咧？你們總是要有一個方向嘛！沒有方向？"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，跟委員報告，因為……"],["李委員坤城：沒有方向，這個問題就繼續嚴重下去啊！"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，因為刑法這一件事情，用行政法是比較能夠快速跟簡易地去面對這個問題，所以為什麼我們現在的態度還是用行政法來做……"],["李委員坤城：所以你不打算修改藥事法就對了？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們都可以來研議，看怎麼樣能夠管理好，然後快速。目前就是有法，已經有……"],["李委員坤城：你們知不知道最高檢察署這個新聞稿？知道嗎？7月份的，知不知道？現在已經兩個多月過去了，到底衛福部的態度是怎麼樣？沒有態度？難怪電子煙這麼氾濫啊！"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：部長要不要私底下再跟李委員好好回復一下？因為已經超過5分鐘。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來研議，因為這牽涉到法律的事情。"],["李委員坤城：我看其他人都講很久啊！"],["主席：其他人有講很久？"],["李委員坤城：有，講很久啊！"],["邱部長泰源：牽涉到法律的事情，我們還是要謹慎來處理。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道謹慎處理。"],["邱部長泰源：會嚴加管理。"],["李委員坤城：我是要知道一個態度跟方向啊！"],["邱部長泰源：態度一定是嚴加管理。"],["李委員坤城：嚴加管理，我知道。"],["邱部長泰源：有效管理。"],["李委員坤城：有效管理。"],["邱部長泰源：對，這個是絕對堅持的原則。至於說……"],["李委員坤城：對我來講，這個不是我要的答案。"],["邱部長泰源：因為是否要負刑事責任……"],["李委員坤城：沒關係啦！請你們來我辦公室做個說明跟報告，好不好？包括你的方向是怎麼樣。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["主席：部長，你們私底下再報告一下。"],["李委員坤城：不然僵在這邊，也沒有給我一個答案，再問下去就有一點不好意思，但是這個問題很嚴重，實務上也出現了問題，有的起訴，有的不起訴，有的緩起訴，所以最高檢察署才會發這個新聞稿，而且大家都開過會啦！兩個月過去了，大家一樣沒有一個方向，這個問題很嚴重，我希望大家一起來做處理，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["主席：謝謝李委員。","接下來請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_i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部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：郭委員，你好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，剛剛徐委員提到臺南，無論是從400的角度或從1264的角度都有它的意義存在，不過，臺南之所以會有臺南學的基本風範，其實是來自於它的文化資產保存非常好，因此，本席對於文化資產的保存相對而言是有一定的重視。譬如我在財政委員會就會特別去考察這棟傅朝卿老師非常非常稱許的建築物，它是屬於合作金庫所有。偏偏這些金融機構也好、國營事業也好、政府機關也好，雖然他們擁有這麼多的文化資產，但是卻不能好好的保存，因此我想就教於文化部長，能不能從院的高度或從部的角度思考一下，公部門擁有的文化資產該如何進行保持，有沒有？"],["李部長遠：其實我們在文資局編列最多的預算就是屬於全臺灣各地的文資，但它的產權有些是屬於私人的、有些是屬於我們無法干預的。"],["郭委員國文：我舉一個例子，沒有私人的問題，過去最早期的關務署中有一個溫泉招待所，後來變成了一個育成中心，本席至少會勘了二次，也討論過，結果他們告訴我的答案就是沒有錢。這個溫泉招待所位於北投地區已經超過120年，就我理解的部分應該是最久的，卻也是荒廢最久的，到現在為止，根據我的理解，連文資的身分都還沒有被確定。到現在為止，考察了三年之後，明年還只編了250萬要進行修復，根本是不可能的事情，因為一般預估大概要一億之多，它是具有高價值的文化資產，卻沒有任何一個公務機關有任何辦法進行保存，部長，你不覺得這個很諷刺嗎？"],["李部長遠：有些單位的管理單位是在地方政府、有些……"],["郭委員國文：我現在講的都是中央政府。"],["李部長遠：中央政府喔！"],["郭委員國文：對。在你就任部長之後，能不能就文化部的角色、就中央政府的角色，我們一直都很期待，民間要保留一個文化資產都要費盡所有心思，為什麼中央坐擁這麼多文化資產的寶山卻任憑它在那邊荒廢，這樣沒有道理嘛！部長，不是嗎？之前審計部已經對國有財產署提過一些糾正，所以國有財產署已經針對非公有文化資產344處以6年的時間花8.5億元，同樣的方式，你不能複製在其他單位來做這樣的努力嗎？部長，有沒有可能？"],["李部長遠：其實只要多編一點預算給我們的文資局……"],["郭委員國文：我講的部分不是只有討論你文資局的預算，而是你以部的高度應該要有那個使命嘛！政府的文化資產與你應該都息息相關，你不能用部會的角度來思考這個問題嘛！"],["李部長遠：我是不是可以請文資局局長來回答？"],["郭委員國文：不用啦！我沒有時間了。"],["李部長遠：不用嗎？好。"],["郭委員國文：請你會後給我一點時間。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["郭委員國文：最後向你就教一個部分，臺南曾文溪流域的南北岸，從最右邊的左鎮化石文化園區到山上水道博物館、以及中央給預算的文化資產園區，以至於到西邊的鹽博館等等，周遭的整個博物館群相當豐沛，但是都流於各點各點的經營，即便是南科區的史前博物館南科分館也是如此，並沒有館館串聯，或是大館帶小館的跡象，也就是這裡缺乏一個總體專案的概念。過往你們曾經做過歷史再造的經費，但是歷史再造的經費當初是用水圳的概念去處理，也就是所謂嘉南水圳的概念、水路的概念，但是那個部分的計畫後來萎縮掉，變成官田的文化資產保護園區，這個也不是不行，但是總體而言，是不是能從曾文溪的角度來思考，部長？"],["李部長遠：完全是，我來之後想要推出100個文化基地的概念，其實與這個完全一樣，同一個區域有好幾個點，將它們整合在一起，我們固定舉辦活動，這點我完全認同。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝部長的認同。這個聚落的概念以及一個帶狀概念的可能性，在你未來整個施政過程中能不能落實非常的重要。這條溪其實有三個面向可以思考，第一個，它有無形的文化資產，譬如燒王船、進香，這是一個；第二個，有具體文化資產的部分，剛剛本席已經唸過了；另外還有一個考古的路徑。如果這三個豐沛性能夠形成整個臺南文化的副都心，一來可以創造一個新的可能性、二來可以減輕臺南市目前觀光的壓力與資源分配及平衡發展，部長，有沒有可能列入專案考量？"],["李部長遠：非常好，去左鎮考古博物館參觀的人非常多。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["李部長遠：我自己花了18年的時間做首座步道，也是完全沿著這個河岸在做，這點與我想做的事情完全一樣，所以我會努力去做。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝部長，也謝謝主席給我的時間包容，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員的質詢，請部長先行回座。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"155991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6365de4e4d7f0923cd2a5f3e270b9db71e66e8eac7fc2cd0ec744b430f128716a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:11:11 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做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛"},{"start":77.328,"end":98.99,"text":"那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦"},{"start":100.035,"end":117.87,"text":"連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的政文慘案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情"},{"start":118.49,"end":136.69,"text":"政文災難我從辦到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的"},{"start":138.203,"end":163.242,"text":"好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一定不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼"},{"start":164.403,"end":191.194,"text":"我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問現在問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講"},{"start":192.535,"end":212.062,"text":"部長啊你就跟吳司要委員吳司要委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子"},{"start":213.015,"end":235.868,"text":"那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說"},{"start":237.591,"end":255.819,"text":"你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說"},{"start":257.06,"end":281.431,"text":"我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他所謂身去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員"},{"start":285.894,"end":304.273,"text":"說了這個東西,部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們也主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去洩漏的因為"},{"start":306.972,"end":319.689,"text":"這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講也不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去的我認為這麼而且講出去是不是真的"},{"start":322.351,"end":344.758,"text":"部長,我認同你講,但你沒回答我的問題啊。不是,部長,我問你剛回答的我認同,但是我沒有,你沒有回答到我問題。確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣,我絕對支持這句話,畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣,從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來。"},{"start":346.258,"end":374.246,"text":"所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊"},{"start":376.021,"end":401.923,"text":"然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關"},{"start":404.164,"end":404.184,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":425.092,"end":445.444,"text":"我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他"},{"start":446.696,"end":475.503,"text":"所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體"},{"start":476.86,"end":502.812,"text":"這我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛"},{"start":504.96,"end":512.181,"text":"委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在"},{"start":532.998,"end":533.058,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":559.271,"end":573.307,"text":"羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎"},{"start":574.668,"end":602.53,"text":"這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人問就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看"},{"start":603.572,"end":609.989,"text":"檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說"},{"start":611.192,"end":636.182,"text":"媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西"},{"start":638.171,"end":655.095,"text":"那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以"},{"start":661.316,"end":684.482,"text":"講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼"},{"start":686.244,"end":713.131,"text":"請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長"},{"start":714.428,"end":714.608,"text":"我我我我"},{"start":741.929,"end":769.895,"text":"我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊"},{"start":771.015,"end":771.335,"text":"那個PVT跳一下"},{"start":796.004,"end":801.324,"text":"人家直接點名欸這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面的檢察官點名的記者名字欸"},{"start":802.694,"end":812.536,"text":"那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事我不是說這記者問題至少有盡量檢查官提了是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談有澄清那案件還在偵辦中所以為什麼對那個我跟你講就是"},{"start":829.5,"end":843.559,"text":"所以我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的假黨這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為"},{"start":846.789,"end":867.527,"text":"因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手"},{"start":869.429,"end":885.928,"text":"那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或綠營的綠營或白營的綠營操作成"},{"start":890.015,"end":902.735,"text":"賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的假官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者"},{"start":903.601,"end":930.635,"text":"所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重"},{"start":932.421,"end":957.324,"text":"那前幾天有一個說謝國良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯罪我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力"},{"start":959.363,"end":986.837,"text":"我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會但警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開"},{"start":988.158,"end":988.178,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":1009.048,"end":1027.047,"text":"我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那判所就不一定有大的判所有小的判所沒有所以針對判所的環境我們就特別立定判所在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們判所裡面去"},{"start":1028.088,"end":1056.442,"text":"好 謝謝副部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵論的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體"},{"start":1057.452,"end":1076.958,"text":"好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1079,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時11分）麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長。"],["主席：好，有請法務部長、警政署副署長。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我還是一樣要跟你提偵查不公開，其實我算是違反偵查不公開的被害人，剛剛莊瑞雄委員還虧辦媽媽嘴命案那時候的事情！針對這個案子，連被害人都出來講當初承辦那個案子時違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官，而我是進去救援、幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官，但連這樣風馬牛不相及的事件在幾年後，都會被特定人士拿來作文章，說我就是違反偵查不公開的那位承辦檢察官，所以就違反偵查不公開來說，我變成另類的被害人，對不對？當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官，而我從來沒有被調查過，因為跟我根本沒關，但就是會有政客們拿來做這樣的宣傳。所以，你說這個情況對人沒有傷害嗎？對被告沒有傷害嗎？我這邊要跟你講：一定有啦！連我只是當年另一個承辦檢察官，都會覺得不是那麼愉快！所以這個情況對人權的傷害其實是很大的。","我再提剛剛沈伯洋委員提到的鄭文燦案，再跟部長報告一件事情：我從辦鄭文燦案到離開檢方、到了市府、又到了立法院，遇過太多人，尤其綠營，一直叫我出來爆料、叫我出來講那一段時間接監聽到的內容，包括鄭先生的，也包括其他政治人物的八卦。但不管要給我什麼樣的好處或什麼條件，我從來沒有答應，也一次都沒有講！過去那麼多年我從來沒有提，因為我尊重我以前那份工作。即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦，有部分跟我以前查辦的有關，但記者來問我時，我也一定說只要我以前辦的案子跟現在的案子有關，我一律不回答。這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重。所以你可以看看，這麼多年來，我都不談那個案子，即便我離開檢方、即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了，我還是不講。結果現在的案子不是亂講一通、到處洩密！","對於剛剛部長講的東西，我聽得不是很滿意。針對剛剛羅智強委員問的事，有其他委員說這是政治力干涉個案、個案怎麼可以放在這邊講，部長還跟吳思瑤委員應和。吳思瑤委員不懂法律就算了、我已經習慣了，但部長你懂，干涉個案跟這個有什麼關係？干涉個案應該是對於辦案人員怎麼偵查案件下手干涉，這才算！今天案子資料外洩、媒體報成那樣，立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查內容洩出去，這叫什麼干涉個案？然後你還可以站在那邊跟吳思瑤委員一搭一唱？我跟你講，我真的受夠了，已經好幾次這樣，我就是要把所有的話講得清清楚楚，不喜歡在那邊說些有的沒有的。我跟你說，這跟干涉個案完全無關，不然你去找出一個理論、找個實務界的人來說說看，對於承辦的人把資料外洩出去，有人質疑怎麼可以外洩這些資料，這叫做干涉個案嗎？我跟你講，你們這樣定義，或是陪著那些政客裝傻、不懂法律，我覺得真的沒有意思，所以我剛剛才會先跟部長報告：我不認為這叫干涉個案。我現在要跟你講清楚，干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們手伸進去、指導檢察官辦案，那才叫干涉個案。你自己違法在先、外洩了偵查資料，被人家質疑了，這叫什麼干涉個案？","部長，如果我講錯，歡迎你反駁我，我都沒有意見。請問剛剛羅智強委員說的情形，部長，你說這叫干涉個案嗎？部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的主張就是不要含沙射影，也就是因為一些媒體報導就認為是檢察官或者偵查團隊洩漏的，這樣對偵辦案件並沒有好處。我們也呼籲任何接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講，但也不能因為檢察官有接觸就認為都是檢察官講出去的，我認為是這樣。而且講出去的是不是真的我也不清楚……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我認同你講的，但你沒回答我的問題啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為你說，那我解釋嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你剛剛回答的我認同，但是你沒有回答到我的問題。確實，我們不要打擊辦案人員的士氣，我絕對支持這句話，畢竟我就是跟他們一起、從年輕到現在的好朋友，一路這樣過來。所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情，我也說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的。我們先跳到後面，當年我搜索桃園市政府的時候，帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索，外界直到晚上才知道這件事情；我一大早去搜索，一直到晚上，中間沒有任何人知道！這才叫偵查不公開啊！我自己在檢方時代，一堆人叫我出來講；我離開檢方之後，也有一大堆人叫我出來講，我也不介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥，一律不講，不管跟我說什麼好處，我不講就是不講，是因為我對於檢察官這個工作的尊敬！我是這樣做事情的，所以我非常討厭違反偵查不公開，更不要講媽媽嘴案，莫名其妙，一堆人扯說我跟那個案子的洩密有關，亂講一通的人一大堆。","我要跟你講，我自己以前在帶學習司法官的時候，常常跟他們講我以前辦案時的一件事情：我開庭問被告、對他很客氣；問完之後，我讓被告回去了，因為我覺得在那件案子中，他根本沒有關係、案件是亂告。我也覺得開庭開得很順、對他很客氣。但是那個當事人走的時候回過頭來跟我講一句話，不是跟我說謝謝，而是跟我說「檢察官，你一張傳票害了我一輩子。」因為自從他收到那張貪污治罪條例案由的傳票之後，他的長官把他放到最邊邊，沒有人敢跟他說話；回到家，家裡面的老婆、小孩每天都擔心他。所以我們不要說只是一張傳票，一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響。你可以去問我以前帶過的學習司法官，每一個我都跟他講過這個例子，所以我們在辦案時要非常地小心。","我們今天不講哪個特定案子，我一直說不管哪個黨，現在國會三黨中，每一黨都中槍過、都受了違反偵查不公開的損害，然後永遠都是特定媒體，我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子。而檢討小組成立這麼久以來，我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署高階人士被處分，全部都沒有啊！所以這到底是怎麼回事？是記者有特權嗎？就是說他可以問到偵查的細節嗎？怎麼可以這樣呢？雖然你今天跟我們講他講的可能是以訛傳訛、可能是怎麼樣，但我現在必須跟你說，裡面很多東西、數字、表格如果將來起訴之後被我們發現是真的呢？那你是不是又有另外一套說法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你也清楚，能夠接觸到這種偵查程序內容的人很多，我們也希望每個地方都要注意啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在大家一直把目光集中在檢調廉這部分，我是覺得因為還有被告、還有證人、還有律師，甚至還有沒有規範到的對象……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你真的覺得……"],["鄭部長銘謙：或者是剛才有委員……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，你真的覺得被告會把對自己不利的訊息告訴媒體，讓媒體報導嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也希望……"],["吳委員宗憲：這符合人性嗎？","剛剛羅智強委員在作會議詢問的時候，也問我現在偵查主體是誰？是檢察官嘛！既然檢察官是指揮官，不管底下誰洩密，檢察官難道可以雙手一攤說「不是我，所以跟我無關」嗎？這也不對嘛！他是指揮官啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，所以這部分各地檢署不是都有在分案？包括桃園在內，各地檢署在辦這些社會矚目案件時，只要外界有任何質疑，我們都全部分案處理、調查嘛！對於這個案件，我們也不是叫人來了就結掉了。"],["吳委員宗憲：來！你看一下檢察官論壇。這不是我請以前的同事給我的、我不幹這種事情的！這些都是媒體上面披露的。你自己看，對於檢察官論壇，部長也很清楚，這是只有檢察官可以進入的論壇，上面直接說「媒體一堆亂象，部裡面毫無作為，使檢察官讓人民失去信任」。今天我跟你說，個案上──不管是柯文哲的案子、或是誰的案子怎麼樣，我從來不幫他們……我從來不對外說「柯文哲是無罪的」，我從來不這樣講；我也不說「柯文哲是有罪的」，但我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩！我一直在講的是這個東西。而且外洩的都是特定媒體，還每個禮拜都在外洩，你認為這樣對嗎？然後，起訴之前，部長可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己猜的，就像有記者說「以我多年的採訪經驗，就可以知道有1500記載」，這怎麼可能？是託夢而來的嗎？講這些都沒有意思。所以我剛剛才會說，部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為，但是我跟部長報告，就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上，而且一再地如此，你們卻從來不處理！北檢被笑翻了啊！甚至被講什麼？請北檢來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係！檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子，乾脆叫北檢來開課教經營了。但我覺得部裡還是雙手一攤，只說不知道、可能是任何一個環節。我們也知道可能是任何一個環節，但檢察官是指揮官啊！","部長，如果永遠偵查大公開，那乾脆把刑事訴訟法的偵查不公開修掉好了啦！不要每次都是有心的檢察官可以到處爆料，而其他、99%乖乖的檢察官、我們這種笨蛋檢察官總是堅守偵查不公開。那些到處洩漏資料給媒體的被創造成英雄，對那些守法的檢察官不是不公平嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我信任我的檢察官……"],["吳委員宗憲：信任？部長，我跟你講啦！你現在不要回答我。就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧、絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯，你講了這句話之後，我就問會不會遇到沒有智慧的法官呢？我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊！那萬一遇到沒有智慧的、把人放了怎麼辦？你現在說信任，那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢？你不能沒有作為啊！","然後，你也不能再放任那些記者一直跑到檢察官辦公室，因為檢察官常常不在座位嘛！現在都是很多檢察官在同一間辦公室，要是檢察官不在座位上，可能沒辦法顧到他的卷，你又不管，繼續放任這樣的情況？而且我跟你說，特定媒體的特定記者是誰大家都知道，但你們也無作為！人家直接點名，這不是我點名的，而是檢察官論壇裡面檢察官點名的記者名字！那你們有沒有去問一下這是怎麼回事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有調……就是對於委員關心的這些、所有報導的這些都有約談啦！我們不是毫無作為喔！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我不是在說這個記者的問題，至少已經有檢察官提了，那是不是要了解一下怎麼回事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有分案、有約談，有澄清，案件還在偵辦中，所以為什麼對……"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我跟你講，我們今天有提一個臨時提案，我們是希望以北檢當作一個示範，主要是因為北檢的檢察長這次上任的時候，他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則，因為我覺得最近這一段時間，這幾年媒體的這些報導，其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大；不只對檢方傷害，其實對執政者傷害也很大！因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手，那也許不是這樣子啊，但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了。譬如說，最近很多人就說，為什麼三立或是誰可以拿到這些資料，別人拿不到，所以哪一個被告又受害，結果到最後又被操作，被藍營的立委或白營的立委操作成賴政府在政治迫害，結果呢？賴清德可能說，我又沒有這樣下令，結果原來是你底下的檢察官，為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生，然後把資料給了記者，那不是也害到現在的執政者？所以為什麼認為柯文哲受政治迫害的民調比例會一直往上爬？其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣，可是後來看到這些新聞一直出來、一直出來，一直出現嘛！那他們也開始就懷疑是不是真的這樣？所以，我必須講，偵查不公開的問題，我們已經談論非常多年了，似乎沒有效果，而且是越來越嚴重。前幾天有一個說謝國樑200，我的意思只是這樣，我覺得他們有沒有犯罪，我不知道，但是這個人200這個數字，如果將來證明是真的有的話，我覺得那你們檢方又在幹什麼了？為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩，這在幹嘛？部長，你如果不當一回事，那我也無能為力。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項作為，包括法制面的，那我們也希望司法院能夠支持，謝謝委員的指導。"],["吳委員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義縣的第一大鄉鎮，它也爭取了很久，現在好不容易剛開始動工鐵路高架化，你看到這條鐵路從北到南一路會經過嘉義市，嘉義市也已經高架化，它的下一站就是水上，水上是嘉義縣第二大人口地區，現在整個嘉義縣發展，包括台積電要進駐到嘉義，我們整個國家的無人機的發展基地也要進到嘉義縣，所以嘉義縣在蓬勃的發展，那它所有土地的利用跟運用就變得非常的重要。蔡總統講鐵路高架化可以去縫合原本鐵路兩旁的土地，所以這件事情以今天你們的整個軌道建設報告可以看到很多縣市都在推高架化，你從臺中出來，你也可以看到臺中高架化之後，它底下的廊道整個綠化變成公共空間，其實真的是一個很值得去推動的。","但是，嘉義縣這邊的爭取顯得非常的困難，我也要特別謝謝前部長李孟諺部長，他在交通委員會的安排下在8月14日到嘉義當地考察，原本爭取水上鐵路高架化這件事情因為一直被打回票，所以後來嘉義提了一個大平台，但是那個大平台計畫，前部長李孟諺部長看了都覺得不可行，所以他當場就允諾要爭取整個鐵路高架化重新再評估。這件事情我不曉得在業務交接過程當中，部長有沒有把這個業務有沒有交接過來？"],["陳部長世凱：如果當時李部長答應要這麼做，我們大概就會朝這個方向，我這邊所了解的是，目前地方政府也還正在針對到底是要高架或者是大平台在做研議，研議的過程當然我們也會協助他們。"],["王委員育敏：好，地方的議員跟鄉親的意見就是要高架化，最原始就是高架化，是因為被你們打回票，才發展出一個大平台，但是因為前部長李孟諺部長到現場看了之後，他也覺得這個大平台很怪，不太可行，所以他當場就有裁示，我相信你們應該有相關會議紀錄。但是你們在今天的報告第6頁還在寫水上大平台，顯然你們都沒有更新，也沒有接軌，所以這個部分是不是部長可以允諾？就是今天回去之後是不是可以跟嘉義縣政府積極的來研議，就是讓水上鐵路高架化這件事情可以再開始重新評估，因為每一個階段的評估都是不一樣的，像過去臺中爭取捷運的時候也是，本來說不可以的，後來其實因為整個發展太快速，所以有一些線其實也都新開出來，這個你也非常清楚。嘉義縣也是有這樣的情況，它正在積極的發展，它在起飛，第二大的鄉鎮水上鄉需要鐵路高架化，請部長帶回去研議，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們積極來跟地方政府來協商，看到底要怎麼樣定案，我們來努力。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"155988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63e4836ff5c4d3268b8446428ab222207f66e8eac7fc2cd0ec99ca43a5534ac6bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"12:07:41 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來看的話最後的結果就是那個肇事的情況其實肇事率其實一直居高不下"},{"start":58.052,"end":80.49,"text":"那A1的部分的發生其實讓人家都非常的心痛特別是少子化的這種狀況那本席在這一個南科區的當中常常有A1的事件那都是國家的人才也是父母的心中寶貝但是問題是這個交通系統的部分政府也投入一些的部分但是有一些方向我想說就跟本部長跟市長來做探討"},{"start":81.551,"end":97.086,"text":"因為在整個交通系統來說他會因應整個南科的變化變化最主要南科的部分呢大部分人都住在高速公路以西也就是舊的舊城區那邊那你又要跑到高速公路以東的南科來上班"},{"start":97.606,"end":119.705,"text":"那南科現在的就業人口數大概9萬人接下來就大概10萬所以所有新增人口當中造成整個運輸流量的一個擁擠但是偏偏這種擁擠的部分你沒有辦法解決然後當然你也想要一直投入在這部分也就是開闢了所謂的北外環道路北外環道路當然是正確的一個方向但是現階段因為交通的問題或房價的因素這些人已經有往北"},{"start":121.165,"end":146.373,"text":"移動南科的一些硝煙往北就目前37個行政區當中人口數成長最多就是西港區它就是在所謂的曾文溪的北邊那本席就是要跟您探討這個部分應該因應整個區域的發展跟需求來進行公路運輸的一個規劃我就請教部長跟市長的部分是不是應該朝向這個部分除了內政部的一些跨西大橋是屬於生活圈道路之外"},{"start":147.173,"end":155.062,"text":"我們交通部的公路運輸系統在整個往南科向北蔓延的情況底下到底有沒有這樣的思維?部長"},{"start":156.52,"end":177.472,"text":"報告委員您所提到的這些我們也認為是相當的重要所以現在其實我們也結合台南市政府大家一起在研商跟研討說要怎麼樣去解決這樣型的方面的問題那各方面不管是公路或者是鐵路各方面在努力那委員您今天關注的是公路的部分部長我先打算一下"},{"start":178.032,"end":199.97,"text":"因為呢地方政府通常是比較沒有錢啊那貧窮都限制了想像所以呢我們事實上現在有個35億元就是說有珍貴西港大橋底下的一個道路系統還有包括國發展立體化的一個工程這個都是好事情但是這不夠譬如講最近討論最多的是加科到南科的道路加科到南科的道路你們居然把重點放在嘉義到新穎"},{"start":201.311,"end":221.267,"text":"加科其實還沒有成型耶真正的成型是南科耶我剛剛說的由南往北就是南科的效應所以真正需要把高鐵橋下道路開闢的其實是南科往西營這一段這段的一個起初報告那個研究報告其實在2009年的時候就有報告出來了"},{"start":222.849,"end":245.982,"text":"2009年喔2009年到現在是連動都沒有動喔整個南科的發展這個一二十年來已經是產值最多了部長我慎重的提醒你這個部分應該去思考南科到家科的部分南半段的需求遠遠大過於北半段的需求南科的產值跟實質的效用遠遠大過於未來的這個家科的想像啊"},{"start":247.203,"end":276.343,"text":"這是ING正在發生的可是每次區呢都有不同的理由公路局都來說不同的理由每次會刊之後說要進度也沒有任何具體的進度我請部長把這些公路運輸應該發展的陸正式就在你旁邊做一個因應南科發展一個整體的規劃出來以你的高度來跟地方政府協助而不是由地方政府來跟你提出需求委員您所提到這個高鐵"},{"start":277.603,"end":295.016,"text":"橋下的這個對沒有錯就是呃臺37線臺39臺3737那個南部這邊是39對對對沒關係啦重點那那這個部分當然我們現在會積極來推動啦您剛剛有提到一個問題的關鍵點是在於說我們一直在等待地方政府跟我們提"},{"start":295.837,"end":309.929,"text":"現在或許我們換一個角度因為對於整個國家的發展來講臺南是相當的重要所以我們可能由我們交通部主動來跟地方政府我們一起來協商然後把可行性評估把它做好可行性研究把它做好"},{"start":310.529,"end":311.53,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":325.546,"end":329.068,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長"},{"start":351.138,"end":373.352,"text":"那最後我還是要耽誤主席一點時間因為整個最關鍵的問題是六都當中現在唯一沒有捷運的就是臺南就臺南那核定的第一期的燃線初步的路網的部分是涵蓋整個高鐵的周遭這個部分這不是錯誤的這是基本的這個路網是需要可是第一個部分就是說"},{"start":374.913,"end":390.71,"text":"藍線的綠線的一個延伸的一個深綠線他結合了整個高鐵跟南科這兩個最重要的發展引擎這個部分我不曉得為什麼地方政府跟你溝通這麼久連這個可行性評估計畫都拖延了這麼久的時間"},{"start":392.717,"end":421.673,"text":"花了已經兩三年了難道是放任他們自己去深綠線確實是現在最重要的啦我們有私下都討論過對那這個部分確實我們鐵道局是不是也來協助一下市政府對我們協助一下市政府讓他趕快送出來也就是臺南的捷運在六都整個西海岸地區當中有沒有可能後發先知後發先知方式不是一定要複製copy因為啊要融入一些聯合開發的一個可能性是"},{"start":422.333,"end":451.259,"text":"我們有土地來源的單位有國有財產署啊有台糖嘛還有軍方嘛這些可能性把綜合架構說下去他剛開始的評估怎麼可能說他綜合規範效益是低於低於1以下呢不太可能的事情嘛那個陸正思或者是那個部長因為主席已經站起來了我實在不方便佔用太多時間這個部分麻煩你們好好規劃一下我剩下沒有問完的改天再來請教你好我們再跟委員報告好謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時7分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，本席來自臺南，有些臺南交通問題跟您探討一下，大概好幾次民調的數字顯示出來，臺南交通問題是所有市民最頭痛的，同時也是最期待，不論是住在臺南或是來到臺南，都有感受到臺南的交通相對其他的城市發展或其他的面向是相對落後的，是不是相對落後大概有幾個面向可以來做思考。第一，從公路運輸的部分，如果我們從社會面或是管理面兩個角度來看，最後的結果就是肇事的情況。肇事率一直居高不下，A1道路交通事故部分讓人家都非常心痛，特別是少子化的狀況，尤其在南科區常常有A1事件，那都是國家的人才，也是父母心中的寶貝。問題是有關交通系統的部分，政府也投入一些的部分，但是有一些方向我想跟部長及司長來做探討。","就整個交通系統來說，它會因應整個南科的變化而變化，最主要南科的部分，大部分都住在高速公路以西，也就是舊城區，但又要跑到高速公路以東的南科來上班，南科現在的就業人口大概9萬，接下來就會到10萬，這些新增人口造成整個運輸流量的擁擠，但是偏偏你沒有辦法解決擁擠問題，當然你也想要投入在這個部分，也就是開闢了所謂的北外環道。北外環道路當然是正確的方向，但是現階段因為交通的問題或房價的因素，這些人已經有往北移動，就是南科的一些效應往北，所以目前37個行政區當中，人口數成長最多就是西港區，它就是在曾文溪的北邊，本席就是要跟你們探討這個部分。你因應整個區域的發展跟需求來進行公路運輸的規劃，我先請教部長跟司長，是不是應該朝向這個部分？除了內政部的一些跨溪大橋是屬於生活圈道路之外，那我們交通部的公路運輸系統在整個南科效應往北蔓延的情況之下，部長，你到底有沒有這樣的思維？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所提到的這些，我們也認為是相當重要，所以現在我們也結合臺南市政府，大家一起在研商跟研討要如何去解決這樣行的問題，不管是公路或者是鐵路，各方面都在努力，委員您今天關注的是公路的部分。"],["郭委員國文：部長，我先打斷一下，因為地方政府通常是比較沒有錢，貧窮就限制了想像，事實上，我們現在有35億元，就是針對西港大橋以下的道路系統，還有包括國道8號立體化工程，這個都是好事情，但是這不夠，譬如最近討論最多的是嘉科到南科的道路，嘉科到南科的道路，你們居然把重點放在嘉義到新營，嘉科其實還沒有成型，真正的成型是南科，我剛剛說的由南往北就是南科的效應，所以需要開闢高鐵橋下道路的其實是南科往新營這一段，其實在2009年的時候就有研究報告出來！2009年到現在是連動都沒有動喔，整個南科的發展一、二十年來已經是產值最多的。部長，我慎重的提醒你，這個部分應該去思考，南科到嘉科的部分，南半段的需求遠遠大過於北半段的需求，南科的產值跟實質的效益遠遠大過於未來嘉科的想像，這是ing、正在發生的。可是，每次去都有不同的理由，公路局都在說不同的理由，每次會勘之後說要進度，也沒有任何具體的進度，我請部長把這些公路運輸應該發展的，路政司就站在你旁邊，請做一個因應南科發展的整體規劃出來，以你的高度來跟地方府協助，而不是由地方政府跟你提出需求。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您所提到高鐵橋下的這個……"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯。"],["陳部長世凱：就是台37線……"],["郭委員國文：台39，南部這邊是台39。沒有關係啦！我們講重點。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分當然我們現在會積極來推動，您剛剛有提到一個問題的關鍵點，就是我們一直在等待地方政府跟我們提，現在或許我們換一個角度，因為對於整個國家的發展來講，臺南相當的重要，所以可能由我們交通部主動跟地方政府一起來協商，然後把可行性評估做好。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳部長世凱：可行性研究把它做好，那這個部分趕快來推動。"],["郭委員國文：麻煩部長主動積極，因為部長其實也相當積極，就像鐵路運輸的部分，鐵路運輸的部分兩個站體，一個善化站體，一個是隆田站體，那也牽扯到未來整個捷運共構的相關問題，這個部分請部長給我一點進度。另外，本席長期以來關心的8.23，就是原臺南市8.23的地下化工程，地下化工程的進度到底什麼時候可以到什麼階段？什麼時候可以通車？因為它影響到後面永康鐵路地下化，後面永康鐵路地下化就影響到後面善化的高架化，這一段一段都有相對的影響，麻煩部長請同仁弄個進度給我，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。我請鐵道局提供。"],["郭委員國文：最後我耽誤主席一點時間，因為整個最關鍵的問題是六都當中現在唯一沒有捷運的就是臺南，核定第1期藍線初步的路網是涵蓋於整個高鐵的周遭部分，這不是錯誤的，這個基本的路網是需要的，可是第一個的部分，綠線的延伸即深綠線，它結合了整個高鐵跟南科這兩個最重要的發展引擎，這個部分我不曉得為什麼地方政府跟你溝通這麼久，連可行性評估計畫都拖延了這麼久的時間，已經花兩、三年了，難道是放任他們自己去……"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，深綠線確實是現在最重要的，我們都討論過。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們鐵道局也來協助一下市政府，讓他們趕快送出來。"],["郭委員國文：就是臺南的捷運在六都整個西海岸地區當中有沒有可能後發先至？後發先至的方式不是一定要複製，因為要融入一些聯合開發的可能性，我們有土地來源的單位，即我們有國有財產署，有台糖，還有軍方，這些可能性把綜合架構做下去，剛開始的評估怎麼可能說它綜合效益是低於1以下呢？不太可能的事情啊！","因為主席已經站起來了，我不方便占用太多時間，這個部分麻煩你們好好規劃一下，我剩下沒有問的問題在下次再來請教部長。"],["陳部長世凱：我們再跟委員報告。"],["郭委員國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謝謝主席那麻煩請我們邱部長還有我們警政監我們警政署的吳警政監還有我們教育部的吳司長好 那就請委員好"},{"start":32.213,"end":55.912,"text":"好那我先請教一下我們警政署這兩年我們警政署針對大麻種植茶器的工作好像在這幾年好像有很大的斬獲對不對報告委員因為大麻是二級毒品所以我們警政署的毒氣中心會對於我們所有的毒品的流行的趨勢包括今天我們關注的伊托米子"},{"start":56.596,"end":58.057,"text":"大麻在種植販售的數量也越來越大而且甚至有"},{"start":84.935,"end":90.67,"text":"那而且在上個禮拜新竹是不是也有破獲市值高達20億的大麻製毒工廠?"},{"start":91.909,"end":115.349,"text":"是,保委員那這個也是我們毒氣中心去整合因為在新竹地檢署的指揮之下在我們刑事局的正義大隊還有新竹縣市警察局有分別查獲了這個大麻的種子那我們把它統合溯源它是後面是共同的一個金主所以我們在高檢署的統合之下在我們刑事局發布新聞"},{"start":116.397,"end":141.523,"text":"那當然能夠查獲這個市值20億這大麻製土工廠也是一個肯定但是相對我們從一些數據來看單單112年查緝大麻的總種根植株數就是110年的9.7倍那今年113年1到6月份這個同期幾乎是去年同期成長近一倍對不對"},{"start":143.701,"end":167.031,"text":"這個我剛剛跟委員報告過因為在新世代反毒策略的當中這一個氣毒合作組是高檢署主責然後我們警政署有六大部門警政署是其中一個部門所以我們非常重視大麻的這個查緝包括源頭的管理所以這個數字會在往上然後到達一個程度之後就會成為平原期對"},{"start":167.731,"end":192.764,"text":"重點那是因為我們觀察這數據我們看到這大麻茶季的總數量逐年提升而且這成長的幅度是越來越高但是你看我們檢方偵檢偵查出來大麻失用的人數跟這個成長這大麻茶季的總數量這個不成比例所以我們是不是認為在大麻失用人口上其實還有很大的黑數"},{"start":194.568,"end":215.56,"text":"發言委員 這個部分這個高檢署也統合了我們警政署其實我們有發動了兩批有動三動五跟動夠動兩的這一個大麻適用者黑素的一個挖掘我們也分別都查獲了幾百人因為大麻是三級土品所以我們在申請對於吸食者的這一個是二級土品所以我們在對於大麻的這一個收儲備的申請"},{"start":219.424,"end":230.616,"text":"我們現在就比較擔心這個黑數的部分因為針對這部分近來不管是媒體還有衛福部都觀察到學生接觸大麻的頻率"},{"start":231.397,"end":247.708,"text":"高於以往甚高但是衛福部統計這醫院通報人數18歲以下這麼多年居然只有13個我覺得這跟我們社會的觀感這落差甚大那這一部分警政署有沒有針對這一部分做過調查"},{"start":253.083,"end":266.972,"text":"法務委員我剛剛有跟委員報告過我們除了源頭的這個查緝還有吸食者的挖掘那我們還有做一個溯源的動作只要這兩個都有的話我們都會往上溯源溯源到銷源的話我們就依照既定的流程來偵辦"},{"start":269.573,"end":295.667,"text":"剛剛有好幾個委員有提過其實這個大麻我們據我們統計為什麼它會導向學生的群體我們來討論一下第一我們覺得它的取得太容易尤其現在毒販常常利用這個社群媒體在販售那學生接觸網路又多甚至可以經由超商通路就可以運輸這部分對不對是不是都有查獲這部分"},{"start":298.8,"end":319.534,"text":"這個就是我們那個辦案的暗源之一啊對啊所以這個我們來講就是取得太容易還有這個吸食大麻簡單化現在喔很多年輕族群都用這個電子煙年輕人愛這個電子煙然後他這個吸食大麻非常的簡單也造成取締不容易再來學生喔"},{"start":320.094,"end":348.797,"text":"當然心智尚未成熟而且外在的誘惑跟壓力導致這個學生我們感覺這個學生吸食這個人口數直線上升而且泰國目前大麻的合法化再加上現在常常媒體在報導很多的公眾人物吸食常常登上這個新聞版面也變成很多年輕人在網路等等看到以後反而造成這個模仿的效益"},{"start":349.457,"end":370.404,"text":"而且在大麻好像在他們學生族群中已經變成他們一般的娛樂性因為他們常常會說這個成癮性很低副作用很低所以很多學生的族群在聚會據我們了解常常都會用電子煙吸食這個大麻那針對這部分不知道你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":373.322,"end":382.268,"text":"那部長部長因為這個應該你們衛福部針對這個煙害防治法的部分部長應該針對這部分是不是有個說明一下"},{"start":385.083,"end":411.037,"text":"跟委員報告,剛才委員提醒的就是電子煙的煙彈成為一些相關有毒物質、化學物質的載具這件事我們目前是跟地方積極的來做一個加強它的查緝希望可以盡早的對電子煙產生更多的嚇阻我們希望警政署跟教育部這部分真的要加強配合因為這個"},{"start":412.538,"end":433.427,"text":"其實大家都知道這有很大的黑數 茶器的數量那麼大茶貨的私用的人口這麼少 這根本就不成比例表示這私用人口有很大的黑數 根本都沒有茶器沒有掌握所以針對公眾人物吸食大麻 這個怕產生這個模仿效益我們覺得吸用這個二級毒品應該不得緩刑 還有針對14歲到18歲"},{"start":438.149,"end":450.486,"text":"裁罰金額得減輕資我覺得應該也是要修改不得減資我覺得還是要加重刑罰才有這個嚇阻的效用那針對這部分我們相當會可不可以研議一下"},{"start":454.376,"end":475.273,"text":"14到18歲希望部長針對這個人數一直上升這個真的要來重視一下還有我們針對二級毒品大麻之外現在因為電子煙流行用大麻煙草變成大麻煙彈還有現在依托米子也跟電子煙結合變成喪屍煙彈那這一部分我們"},{"start":477.035,"end":490.371,"text":"進來取締的成果到底怎麼樣為什麼現在感覺這社會上對這喪屍煙彈大家都非常的恐慌那這部分取締的成果怎麼樣那個錦鎮監這邊可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":494.131,"end":511.393,"text":"報告委員,我們有鑒於這個一坨米子、一餅帕子還有每坨米子這個部分的流行所以我們在今年的暑假青春專案其實我們就有加強各縣市的這個取締那配合高檢署"},{"start":512.054,"end":514.175,"text":"這部分剛好有講到你看我們1到9月份衛福部跟地方衛生局針對"},{"start":539.66,"end":566.091,"text":"加熱煙、電子煙、柴房的件數其實只有639件但是這639件在7到9月就佔了幾乎佔了一半表示這個暑假就是學生的旺季所以我們一直擔心就是學生這個稀食的數量非常的龐大那但是我們衛福部跟地方衛生局這查緝真的要檢討你看我們單單警察在7到9月份"},{"start":566.271,"end":571.054,"text":"跟委員報告剛才部長已經有指示我們在這個電子煙查氣的部分在一個月內要做出相關的精進說明再向委員這邊再報告"},{"start":587.284,"end":615.863,"text":"好,我們今天會提出的真的是非常的擔心我們現在這個學生族群這使用大麻的人口數直線攀升因為這個對他們來講真的取得太容易他用這個電子煙加熱煙就可以結合這個喪屍煙彈這喪屍煙彈現在造成社會很嚴重的問題而且我們很多的警察人員也因為這些問題而喪屍了性命所以這一部分我希望我們衛福部、教育部"},{"start":616.263,"end":616.303,"text":"涂權吉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1240,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時11分）謝謝主席。麻煩請邱部長，還有警政署吳警政監，還有教育部吳司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：我先請教一下警政署，這兩年警政署針對大麻種植查緝的工作，好像這幾年有很大的斬獲，對不對？"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，因為大麻是二級毒品，所以警政署毒緝中心對於我們所有毒品的流行趨勢，包括今天我們關注的依托咪酯也是最近新興的毒品，所以我們對於大麻，在高檢署的統合之下，最近這一、兩年其實是大力整頓跟查緝，所以查緝的量跟吸食的會有大量飆升。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以看得到現在查獲的量也很大，可是相對我們也觀察近幾年應該是大麻在種植、販售的數量也越來越大，而且甚至有規模化的跡象。上個禮拜新竹是不是也破獲市值高達20億的大麻製毒工廠？"],["吳警政監東文：是，報告委員，這也是我們毒緝中心去整合，在新竹地檢署指揮之下，刑事局偵一大隊還有新竹縣市警察局分別查獲大麻的種植，我們把它統合溯源，它後面是共同的一個金主，所以我們在高檢署的統合之下在我們刑事局發布新聞。"],["涂委員權吉：當然能夠查獲市值20億大麻製毒工廠也是一個肯定，但是相對我們從一些數據來看，單單112年查緝大麻的總重跟植株數就是110年的9.7倍，今（113）年1到6月份幾乎比去年同期成長近一倍，對不對？"],["吳警政監東文：這個就是我剛剛跟委員報告過，因為在新世代反毒策略當中，緝毒合作組是高檢署主責，有六大部門，我們警政署是其中一個部門，所以我們非常重視大麻的查緝，包括源頭的管理。"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["吳警政監東文：所以這個數字會再往上，然後到達一個程度之後就會成為平原期。"],["涂委員權吉：對。重點是因為我們觀察這個數據，我們看到大麻查緝的總數量逐年提升，而且成長幅度越來越高，但是我們檢方偵查出來大麻施用的人數跟大麻查緝的總數量不成比例，所以我們認為是不是在大麻施用人口上，其實還有很大的黑數？"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，這個部分高檢署也統合我們警政署，其實我們有發動兩批，有0305跟0902大麻施用者黑數的挖掘，我們也分別查獲了幾百人，因為大麻是二級毒品，所以我們在申請大麻搜索票這部分比較符合法律程序。"],["涂委員權吉：我們現在是比較擔心黑數的部分，因為針對這部分，近來不管是媒體還有衛福部，都觀察到學生接觸大麻的頻率高於以往甚高，但是衛福部統計醫院通報人數，18歲以下，這麼多年居然只有13個，我覺得這跟我們社會觀感落差甚大，警政署有沒有針對這部分做過調查？"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，我剛剛有跟委員報告過，我們除了源頭的查緝，還有吸食者的挖掘，我們還有做一個溯源的動作，只要這兩個都有的話，我們都會往上溯源，溯源到校園的話，我們就依照既定流程來偵辦。"],["涂委員權吉：好，剛剛也有好幾個委員有提過，據我們統計，為什麼大麻會導向學生群體，我們來討論一下，第一，我們覺得它的取得太容易，尤其現在毒販常常利用社群媒體在販售，學生接觸網路又多，甚至可以經由超商通路就可以運輸，這一部分對不對？是不是都有查獲這一部分？"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，這個就是我們辦案的案源之一啊！這個也是案源之一。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！所以我們來講就是取得太容易，還有吸食大麻簡單化，現在很多年輕族群都用電子煙，年輕人愛電子煙，然後吸食大麻非常簡單，也造成取締不容易。再來，學生心智尚未成熟，加上外在的誘惑跟壓力，我們感覺導致學生吸食人口數直線上升，而且泰國目前大麻合法化，再加上現在常常媒體在報導，很多公眾人物吸食，也常常登上新聞版面，變成很多年輕人在網路等等看到以後，反而造成模仿效應。而且大麻好像在他們學生族群中已經變成一般的娛樂性，因為他們常常會說，這個成癮性很低、副作用很低，所以很多學生族群聚會時，據我們了解常常都會用電子煙吸食大麻，針對這部分，不知道你們有沒有掌握？部長，衛福部針對菸害防制法部分，部長是不是應該說明一下？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，剛才委員提醒的就是電子煙的煙彈成為一些相關有毒物質、化學物質的載具這件事，我們目前是跟地方積極加強查緝，希望可以儘早對電子煙產生更多的嚇阻。"],["涂委員權吉：我們希望警政署跟教育部這部分真的要加強配合，其實大家都知道這有很大的黑數，查緝的數量那麼大，查獲施用的人口這麼少，根本就不成比例，表示施用人口有很大的黑數，根本都沒有查緝、沒有掌握，所以針對公眾人物吸食大麻，怕產生模仿效應，我們覺得施用二級毒品應該不得緩刑。還有針對14歲到18歲裁罰金額得減輕之，我覺得應該也是要修改，不得減之！我覺得還是要加重刑罰，才有嚇阻的效用。針對這部分，可不可以研議一下？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：希望部長針對人數一直上升真的要重視一下。還有針對二級毒品大麻之外，現在因為電子煙流行，將大麻菸草變成大麻煙彈，還有現在依托咪酯也跟電子煙結合變成喪屍煙彈，對這部分，我們近來取締的成果到底怎麼樣？為什麼現在感覺社會上對喪屍煙彈都非常恐慌？這部分取締的成果怎麼樣？警政監這邊可以說明一下嗎？"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，我們有鑑於依托咪酯、異丙帕酯，還有美托咪酯的流行，所以我們在今年暑假的青春專案就有加強各縣市的取締，配合高檢署，今年的取締也從10月份開始有連續40天的專案，警政署本身在10月1號到14號發動了一個全國性、主題性，主題性就是依托咪酯，還有系統性，就是從供給跟需求方面去做一個查緝，我們也在隔天有發布新聞。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這部分，剛才也有講到，1到9月份衛福部跟地方衛生局針對加熱菸、電子煙，裁罰件數其實只有639件，但是這639件在7到9月幾乎占了一半，表示暑假就是學生的旺季，所以我們一直擔心學生吸食的數量非常龐大。但是，衛福部跟地方衛生局的查緝真的要檢討，你看單單警察在7到9月份查喪屍煙彈的案件數就可以達六百多件，所以我覺得是不是衛福部在這一部分的查緝真的要大大加強？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，剛才部長已經有指示我們在電子煙查緝的部分，在一個月內要做出相關的精進說明，再向委員這邊報告。"],["涂委員權吉：我們今天會提出真的是非常擔心，現在學生族群使用大麻的人口數直線攀升，因為對他們來講，真的取得太容易，他用電子煙、加熱菸就可以結合喪屍煙彈，這個喪屍煙彈現在造成社會很嚴重的問題，而且很多警察人員也因為這些問題而喪失性命，所以這一部分我希望衛福部、教育部還有警政署這邊都能夠幫忙多查緝，減緩社會這個很嚴重的問題。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長、司長。","接續我們請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"155984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d630659efaa8b8794f5fbc85fd0f5e73d7766e8eac7fc2cd0ec30a324e446e41dda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:11:23 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原他說他是說如果遭到侵略的話台灣準備好打仗了但是無論如何作為一個駐美大使很多人講說台灣打仗的時候你駐美大使立刻飛回來跟我們一起打仗嗎所以您覺得"},{"start":198.226,"end":226.215,"text":"中美大使對於在美國媒體訪問的時候直接這樣的一個談話適合嗎?對於我們的國軍弟兄因為他們才是站在第一線的啊您覺得適合嗎?我還是剛剛的回答答案就是我認為余大使的真正的用意就是說我們台灣應該要持續的加強我們自我防衛的能力跟決心他只要的目的是在說明如果余大使是用您的話術的話"},{"start":227.856,"end":247.075,"text":"我覺得會比較好所以我必須講我們尤其駐美大使、駐外大使還是需要謹言慎行啊尤其我覺得國防部因為你現在肩負的是很多我們在第一線的我們的國軍弟兄我剛才為什麼請我們的鄭豐市今天是專門委員"},{"start":250.114,"end":269.98,"text":"部長請問一下這一次我們的一些情報人員的個資包含你自己在內的高階將官情報人員的個資外洩你們承認疏失請問一下有人下台嗎有人被懲處嗎我們會來檢討並且進行相關的懲處所以還沒有被懲處我們現在由法務部的廉政署來進行這個調查調查之後自然會來進行相關的所以有人會被懲處對不對"},{"start":280.618,"end":300.507,"text":"就這個疏失我想應該要檢討然後來進行究責當然要因為老師說我今天看到是我們的陳寶倫專門委員來我很嚇一跳但他們說主任在交通委員會因為交通委員會有排同樣的一場是我知道但是我覺得這件事情啊姿勢體大"},{"start":302.625,"end":322.499,"text":"因為我覺得我們的國防部雖然承認疏失但是第一時間說我們收回了我們會強化作業程序可是問題是今天有這麼多不應該被曝露的個資然後只是因為我們的作業疏失我們就會給就是各單位"},{"start":323.522,"end":341.36,"text":"所以外界會認為說這樣還打仗嗎還有什麼任性在那邊開這麼多什麼全民防衛任性然後花這麼多錢要訓練還不知道有多少錢給綠油我直接說然後你們搞這樣的飛機有任性可言嗎部長"},{"start":344.375,"end":359.88,"text":"發生在國防部欸當然這個還是要跟委員報告的因為這個還是循內部軍網的公務系統以電子發文發送給各承辦單位各承辦單位當然就公務上面看到這個相關的附件確實我們承認說沒有將這個機"},{"start":362.341,"end":370.966,"text":"一些機敏的人員做隔離這是一個疏失但是當然他也應該不宜將他外洩所以當然不能外洩這種問題說實在"},{"start":374.653,"end":403.308,"text":"我知道大家都很辛苦但是這個問題一定要嚴懲尤其發生在國防部另外還有一些補破網的這個措施比如說因為有些情報人員是用化名對不對然後你們現在把人家的那個真實身份通通曝光因為你們尤其在軍中大概知道誰是誰所以另外一個就是單位會不會做一些輪調你們除了去檢討、去調查、去懲處之外接下來你還有什麼補破網的措施嗎"},{"start":404.888,"end":427.336,"text":"就我了解這些相關的這些應該要做財產申報的都是一定層級以上的人那他們都是用真實姓名來對外進行作業沒有來進行化名這樣子所以也不是第一線的工作人員所以那當然我們也要承認就是說我們有疏失那我們也做了風險的控管將這些公文進行銷毀進行這個從電腦上面全部的刪除那這個部分"},{"start":434.393,"end":456.148,"text":"還是要檢討相關的疏失來進行?好,我用一點點時間這個是我們就跟數發部所了解的你可以看到這個資料這個是最近這6年相關的資安事件這裡面有政府單位疏失的太多是由我們政府單位自己把資料外洩剛剛我講就是說國防部"},{"start":456.949,"end":480.125,"text":"我覺得是不能夠被容許的過去包含我們自己個人的就是一般民眾的護證資料都可以外泄那當然有些是被駭客攻擊你可以看到這6年來我們大大小小從中央到地方公營事業包含我們關鍵的基礎設施我們今天不是在討論韌性嗎我們這些關鍵基礎設施要怎麼樣去更要強化韌性"},{"start":487.129,"end":515.767,"text":"我們大大小小的這些資安事件高達5400多件高達5400多件其實這個問題是蠻嚴重的除了來自駭客的攻擊之外還有就是我們自己本身作業單位的疏失但是過去不管是很多政府單位有資料外洩老實說啦我們都沒有看到一個真正的懲處"},{"start":517.338,"end":541.234,"text":"所以就會一而再再而三每次發生的時候就說我們會立刻改進啊然後我們這些立刻收回啊什麼理由一大堆所以我覺得以這件事來講的話我覺得這次我就要看國防部要怎麼做處理剛才部長有回答說在檢討之後調查之後該懲處的就懲處好不好"},{"start":542.145,"end":567.566,"text":"是 我想我們今天這個事件是人案的問題那資安的問題當然就涉及到說中國不斷對我們進行網路的害侵就這個部分我們當然要加強我們的資安的防護能力對 沒有錯 我這邊講的資安當然來自於外來的供給還有來自於我們自己本身內部作業疏失自己就把資料給外洩出去了這一點所以很重要 好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":960,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時11分）謝謝主席。我請顧部長，還有政風室的代表。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。聯合利劍B剛剛舉行完畢，中共馬上又在兩個地方實施實彈射擊，感覺台海之間的情勢有升高的情形。我記得你剛剛當國防部長的時候曾問過你，我說前國防部邱部長說他其實都睡不好覺，你說你的睡眠品質很好，我想請問一下，最近連續這樣的一個情勢，你的睡眠品質仍然很好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我記得我沒有說我的睡眠品質好或不好，我說我的睡眠品質跟平常是一樣，大概就是這樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我想你站在這個質詢台上面，問我睡眠品質這件事情，我承認我也不知道如何回答。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你沒有辦法再回答睡眠品質一樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我……"],["王委員鴻薇：其實非常簡單，邱部長要傳達的，就是在這樣的局勢上，尤其國防部長他不可能睡得好的，部長可能想要四兩撥千金，如同剛才張啓楷委員所講的，就是現在很多的情勢，使得大家感覺到比較緊張。另外，因為你是律師出身，你很會去閃躲這樣的問題，其實當時你說睡眠品質一樣，外界很多都會覺得你真的睡眠品質一樣嗎？你真覺得這一切都如常嗎？好，我再請教一下……"],["顧部長立雄：我認為敵情當然是值得我們來警惕的。現在中國的軍事武力不斷的擴張，不斷的在進行這些相關的操演或演習……"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有對國防部長造成壓力？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們對於任何一個工作都要戰戰兢兢。"],["王委員鴻薇：感覺你現在比剛出任國防部長的時候要沉重很多。另外，最近我們的駐美代表俞大㵢在接受美國媒體訪問的時候，他說臺灣已經準備好打仗了，傳回臺灣之後，引起軒然大波。所以我想請問部長，您同意俞大㵢的說法嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我認為俞大使所說的，主要重點應該是在強調我們臺灣應該要有足夠的自我防衛的能力跟決心……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以您同意……"],["顧部長立雄：這一點是比較重要，我認為他講話的重點……"],["王委員鴻薇：那天林佳龍部長有幫他再還原，說他的意思是如果遭到侵略的話，臺灣準備好打仗了。但無論如何，作為一個駐美大使，很多人講臺灣打仗的時候，你駐美大使會立刻飛回來跟我們一起打仗嗎？所以，您覺得駐美大使在接受美國媒體訪問的時候，直接這樣的一個談話適合嗎？對於我們的國軍弟兄，他們才是站在第一線的，您覺得適合嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我還是剛剛的回答，就是我認為俞大使真正的用意，是我們臺灣應該要持續加強我們的自我防衛能力跟決心，他主要的目的是在說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果俞大使是用您的話術的話，我覺得會比較好。所以我必須講，駐外大使尤其是駐美大使，還是需要謹言慎行。尤其國防部，因為你現在肩負的是我們很多站在第一線的國軍弟兄。","我剛才為什麼請政風室，今天來的是專門委員。主要是想請問部長，這一次，包含你自己在內的高階將官，我們一些情報人員的個資外洩，你們承認疏失，請問有人因此下臺嗎？有人被懲處嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會來檢討，並且進行相關的懲處。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以還沒有人被懲處？"],["顧部長立雄：現在是由法務部廉政署進行調查，調查之後，自然會來進行相關的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以有人會被懲處，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：就這個疏失，我想應該要檢討，然後來究責。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然要！老實說我今天看到是陳保倫專門委員來，我嚇一跳，但他們說主任在交通委員會……"],["顧部長立雄：因為交通委員會也排同樣的一場。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，但我覺得這件事情茲事體大，國防部雖然承認疏失，但第一時間是說：我們收回了，我們會強化作業程序！問題是今天有這麼多不應該被暴露的個資，然後只是因為我們的作業疏失，我們就可以給各單位？所以外界認為這樣還打仗嗎？還有什麼韌性？在那邊說什麼全民防衛韌性，花這麼多錢要訓練，還不知道有多少錢給綠友友，然後你們搞這樣的飛機有韌性可言嗎？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：這件事發生在國防部耶！"],["顧部長立雄：還是要跟委員報告，因為這個還是循內部軍網的公文系統，以電子發文發送給這個各承辦單位，各承辦單位當然就公務上面看到這個相關的附件，我們承認確實沒有將一些機敏的人員做隔離，這是一個疏失，但是他也不宜將它外洩，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：當然不能外洩！我知道大家都很辛苦，但是這個問題一定要嚴懲，尤其發生在國防部。另外還有一些補破網的措施，比如有些情報人員是用化名，然後你們現在把人家的真實身分統統曝光，尤其在軍中，大概知道誰是誰。另外就是單位會不會做一些輪調？你們除了去檢討、去調查、去懲處之外，接下來還有什麼補破網的措施嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：就我了解，這些相關的應該要做財產申報的，都是一定層級以上的人，他們都是用真實姓名來對外進行作業，所以沒有化名這樣子，也不是第一線的工作人員。當然我們也要承認我們有疏失，也做了風險的控管，將這些公文銷毀，從電腦上面全部刪除。這個部分，還是要檢討相關的疏失。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個是我們跟數發部所了解的，你可以看到這個資料是最近六年相關的資安事件，這裡面有政府單位的疏失，太多是由我們政府單位自己把資料外洩，剛剛講的國防部，我覺得是不能夠被容許的。過去包含我們一般民眾的戶政資料都可以外洩，有些是被駭客攻擊；但是你可以看到這六年來，大大小小從中央到地方公營事業，包含我們關鍵的基礎設施！我們今天不是在討論韌性嗎？這些關鍵基礎設施要怎麼去更強化它的韌性？大大小小的資安事件高達五千四百多件！其實這個問題滿嚴重的，除了來自駭客的攻擊之外，還有就是我們自己本身作業單位的疏失。過去很多政府單位資料外洩，我們都沒有看到一個真正的懲處，所以就會一而再、再而三的發生，每次發生的時候，就說我們會立刻改進，立刻收回等等，理由一大堆！所以我覺得以這件事來講，這次我就要看國防部怎麼處理，剛才部長回答說，在檢討之後，調查之後，該懲處的就懲處，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：我想今天這個事件是人安的問題，資安的問題當然就涉及到中國不斷對我們進行網路的駭侵，就這個部分，我們當然要加強我們資安的防護能力。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯，我這邊講的資安，當然來自於外來的攻擊，還有來自於我們自己本身內部作業疏失，自己就把資料給外洩出去了，所以這點很重要。謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員，部長請回。","接下來請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請洪申翰委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"155983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63beb9d08601316ad2ea3bc5a9eeba56a866e8eac7fc2cd0ec21d513256421d2e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"12:09:51 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OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝局長 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這個扭轉了2000年的總統大選喔老蔣也很感人啊 你看他左邊講的這個那個部長我念不一定喔 他說天啊北部心嘛沒有一個總統願意將自己的住民推向戰爭每個小孩都是父母的心頭肉啊我現在要問你的事 你看到這張照片看到這張畫有什麼感覺"},{"start":231.53,"end":258.365,"text":"我想我們要強化自我防衛能力跟決心這是我們國防部的立場就是這樣子那是不是請那個賴清德賴總統也要跟陳水扁陳總統請議一下陳總統是自己的小孩去當兵啊當初大家也鼓掌叫好啊這是不是第一個要做的欸現場我看今天很多將官在加起來一百顆星星喔很多將官為國盡心盡力很多小孩都是後來也都當了兵嘛對不對"},{"start":260.376,"end":287.321,"text":"要不要呼籲奈總統跟陳水扁總統學習?但是還要重要的,我們在台灣的高官們不是只有40萬名利的問題啊也不是只有調查高中生要不要去扶秦啊高官要做點榜樣吧,乾脆在台灣最能夠提振士氣的能夠凝聚向心力的兩個人嘛奈總統啊,這就是你啊,是你部長"},{"start":288.547,"end":297.572,"text":"我想任何一個人他按照這個相關憲法跟法律的規定他應該要盡他這個相關的義務包括服兵役等等應該都會做"},{"start":299.96,"end":325.977,"text":"阿扁阿驚陳志忠這個文宣阿為什麼那麼感動人一個是他以身作者他真的去當兵當然後來他去當兵發生了一些波折可是他說到天啊白無心小孩是心頭肉沒有一個父母現在就是這段時間有一些父母開始擔心嘛第二個下面這個話還很重要阿他說孩子都要去服兵役了所以阿扁阿說他最不希望也最不願意的"},{"start":327.011,"end":352.701,"text":"就是台灣發生戰爭了我們也不願意台灣發生戰爭我們都希望維持現狀對 維持現狀 這很好 對可是萬一發生的時候要該做什麼事情來 全世界有一個非常成功的典範來看看 以色列以色列啊 最近發生以哈戰爭啊他們的總理本來小孩是在美國的 在邁阿密緊急就回國去了"},{"start":354.619,"end":379.862,"text":"那時候以色列媒體還做了一份很重要的名單大家知道嗎?那個名單叫什麼?以色列部長及以上高官的子女參戰的名單這個是以色列媒體做的喔他們包括總理的兒子、總統的兒子、兩名無職務的部長五個孩子社會保險部的兒子、交通部的部長的長女他們是男女都接兵喔"},{"start":381.579,"end":404.759,"text":"連長女都去當兵了移民跟整合部的部長來 看一個倒數第三行顧部長以色列勞動部的部長有四個小孩還有他四個子女跟他的女婿全部都當兵了這個家庭至少8個人搞不好12個人去當兵了全民皆兵啊所以以色列才那麼強啊"},{"start":406.305,"end":434.867,"text":"部長我當然知道我們今天要追求和平要避戰對不對不希望小孩上戰場去阿那問題是現在看起來戰爭離我們越來越近然後整個氣氛又那麼不好我們是不是該做一點事情那我們看下面這一張能不能我現在問的問題是當以色列的媒體列出一個部長級以上的小孩的參戰名單台灣的呢中華民國高官指你不要說參戰名單有沒有一個備戰的名單"},{"start":436.673,"end":458.245,"text":"是不是要先問幾個事情?第一部長級以上的小孩有當兵嗎?第二個有準備跟以色列一樣準備要上戰線嗎?第三最卑微的這段時間鬧得沸沸揚揚嘛總統說要40萬有韌性強韌的這個民兵是不是小孩至少去參加40萬民兵的訓練?"},{"start":459.675,"end":470.736,"text":"跟委員報告一直在講民兵他們不是民兵嘛他就民力不是民兵嘛您不要這樣子一直在那部長我呼籲至少部長級以上的小孩包括你的小孩去參加民力OK嗎"},{"start":471.516,"end":488.581,"text":"我想每一個人都有他應該應盡的義務嘛那這個就是你上次也一直在問說是這樣我覺得這個問題應該就是說他任何他任何應該應盡的義務都是應該盡的嘛就是這樣子嘛好不好好那我們做個簡單的總結部長"},{"start":490.362,"end":517.023,"text":"這不是在刁難你應該是你以前金管會主委你也把你任內的工作做得很好嘛國防部部長也一樣啊那國防部長你現在碰到現實兩岸現在看起來是在緊張的是不是所以我才問你說你怎麼樣去把士氣是提振的要凝聚的我今天從國內一個以前的案例從陳志忠跟你講到國際上以色列的請參考一下好不好當然我們做兩件事情第一個我們追求和平盡量避戰對不對"},{"start":518.683,"end":534.035,"text":"我同意了對不對那第二個不得已我們當然自己要捍衛自己啊所以該買的武器是要買的我們自己要武裝自己那怎麼去提振士氣你要做好準備啊好不好思考一下陳時中這個案例思考一下以色列人家的參戰跟備戰名單好謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":930,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時2分）請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好，今天主席安排一個非常好、非常重要的專報，因為你之前特別提到說，中共現在在灰色地帶的襲擾，還有軍事上的恫嚇，一直在加大，中共演習越來越大，越來越不容易去掌握，所以有可能由訓轉演，由演轉戰，有這個可能性。包括我們海軍司令唐華接受經濟學人專訪的時候也說，中國大陸那邊現在用的是蟒蛇戰略，所以他們隨時可能會封鎖台灣，所以今天這個會非常非常地重要。我要請問部長的是，部長有感受到兩岸的戰爭，一步一步在靠近嗎？我會這樣問，有一個很重要的原因，除了你剛剛講的理論之外，最近發生一件事情，就是教育部調查了學生服勤意願書，有些家長是擔心的，你有感覺到，有聞到兩岸戰爭的氣氛一步一步在靠近嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想跟委員報告，國防部的立場一向是備戰而不求戰，但是我們還是要進行備戰。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。當然，戰爭是沒有贏家的，大家看一下這個畫面，這是烏俄戰爭中基輔在戰前跟戰後的對比，你看左邊那個圖，左上角的場景在戰爭之後變成左下角的場景，右上角的場景戰爭之後變成下面的場景。烏俄戰爭開戰至今兩年多，本來很富庶、平和的烏克蘭……現在死亡人數最新統計是8萬人，烏克蘭死亡了20萬人，生靈塗炭。戰爭都沒有贏家，所以我請問部長……"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們要譴責的是侵略者。"],["張委員啓楷：對，沒有錯，所以我們要做好……"],["顧部長立雄：我們沒有侵略。"],["張委員啓楷：對、對，我們做好避戰，也做好備戰的準備。所以部長我要問你下一個問題，如果我們也要備戰，那戰爭如果發生的時候，部長，你要怎麼樣去凝聚國人的向心力，如何去提升全民的士氣？你要怎麼做？你當過國安會秘書長，還當部長，你對這個應該是很有研究，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們就是要加強全民對於敵情日趨嚴峻的情況來凝聚國人的團結，然後來強化全社會防衛的韌性。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在看到的就是40萬民力，然後高中生被調查要不要填服勤意願書。我給你看一個很成功的個案，部長看到這個照片，應該會有些感慨，你跟阿扁應該很熟，也認得陳致中嘛！當初青春正盛的陳致中說他明年要去當兵，他的爸爸是陳水扁。你看到這張照片有什麼感覺？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，你這個問題，一再的跟我問，然後一再的叫我……"],["張委員啓楷：我是第一次問你啊，之前有問過你陳致中的這張照片嗎？你看到這張照片有什麼感覺？尤其他說的這句話很重要，他說他明年要去當兵，他爸爸是阿扁，這張文宣很重要，它扭轉了2000年的總統大選，老實講也很感人。你看他左邊講的，我唸給部長聽，他說：「天下父母心。沒有一個總統願意將自己的子民推向戰爭。」每個小孩都是父母的心頭肉！我現在問你的是，你看到這張照片，看到這段話有什麼感覺？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們要強化自我防衛能力跟決心，這是我們國防部的立場，就是這樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：是不是請賴清德總統也要跟陳水扁總統請益一下？陳總統是自己的小孩去當兵，當初大家也鼓掌叫好，這是第一個要做的。我看今天很多將官在現場，加起來一百顆星星，很多將官為國盡心盡力，很多小孩後來也都當了兵，對不對？要不要呼籲賴總統跟陳水扁總統學習。","第二個更重要的是，臺灣的高官們，我們現在不是只有40萬民力的問題，你們不是有調查高中生要不要去服勤，高官要做點榜樣吧，不用嗎？現在臺灣最能夠提振士氣，最能夠凝聚向心力的兩個人，一個是賴總統，一個是你，是不是？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：我想任何一個人，他按照憲法跟法律相關的規定，應該要盡他這個相關的義務，包括服兵役等等，應該都會做。"],["張委員啓楷：阿扁和陳致中的這個文宣，為什麼會那麼感動人，一個是他以身作則，他真的去當兵，當然後來當兵發生了一些波折，可是他說到天下父母心，小孩是心頭肉。現在這段時間，確實有一些父母開始擔心。","第二個，下面這段很重要啊！阿扁說孩子要去服兵役，他最不希望也最不願意的，就是臺灣發生戰爭。"],["顧部長立雄：我們也不願意臺灣發生戰爭，我們都希望維持現狀。"],["張委員啓楷：維持現狀這很好，可是萬一發生的時候，該做什麼事情？全世界有一個非常成功的典範，大家看看最近發生以哈戰爭的以色列，他們總理的小孩本來是在美國的邁阿密，緊急之下就回國去了，那時候以色列媒體還做了一份很重要的名單，大家知道嗎？那個名單叫作以色列部長級以上高官子女參戰的名單，包括總理的兒子、總統的兒子、兩名無職務部長的五個孩子，社會保險部的兒子，交通部部長的長女，他們是男女皆兵，連長女都去當兵，還有移民跟整合部部長的孩子。請顧部長看一下倒數第三行，以色列勞工部部長有四個小孩，還有他四個女兒跟女婿全部都當兵了，這個家庭至少八個人，搞不好十二個人去當兵了，是全民皆兵啊，所以以色列才那麼強！部長，我當然知道，我們今天要追求和平，要避戰，不希望小孩上戰場；問題是，現在看起來戰爭離我們越來越近，然後整個氣氛又那麼不好，我們是不是該做一點事情？","我們再看下面這一張，我現在要問的問題是，當以色列的媒體列出一個部長級以上高官子女參戰的名單，我們臺灣呢？中華民國高官子女不要說參戰名單，有沒有備戰的名單？請問部長幾件事情，第一個，部長級以上的小孩有當兵嗎？第二個有準備跟以色列一樣準備要上戰線嗎？第三個最卑微的就是這段時間鬧得沸沸揚揚─總統說，要有四十萬有韌性、強韌的民兵，他們的小孩是不是至少去參加四十萬民兵的訓練？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，他們不是民兵，就民力嘛！不是民兵，你不要這樣子，一直在……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我呼籲至少部長級以上的小孩，包括你的小孩去參加民力，OK嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想每一個人都有他應盡的義務，你上次也一直在問，我覺得這個問題應該就是說，任何他應盡的義務都應該盡的，就是這樣子嘛！好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：我做個簡單的總結，部長，這不是在刁難你，你以前擔任金管會主委，也把你任內的工作做得很好，國安會秘書長也一樣啊。現在是國防部長，兩岸現在看起來是比較緊張的，所以我才問你要怎麼樣把士氣提振起來、凝聚起來。我今天從國內一個以前的案例，從陳致中跟你講到國際上以色列的情況，請參考一下。好不好？當然我們做兩件事情，第一個我們追求和平，儘量避戰，部長同意，對不對？第二個，不得已遇到了，當然自己要捍衛自己，該買的武器要買，我們自己要武裝自己，要怎麼樣去提振士氣，你要做好準備。思考一下陳致中這個案例，思考一下以色列人家的參戰跟備戰名單。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，部長請回。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"155980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6306702f6c9b684fbd5d49a24f4c608aef66e8eac7fc2cd0ec158e5f3beada05b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:01:32 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其實這個青少年使用電子煙在實體店面的這個買的部分我們是嚴加查緝的但是我們確實在這個網路平台上面是我們下一個重的網路啊 網路啊 到處可見你Google一下都告訴你什麼不要人家輸 對不對"},{"start":217.424,"end":229.188,"text":"我現在給你回顧一下啦請問 來來來 邱部長現在大麻有沒有批評犯案有沒有 大麻 馬尼灣有沒有看起來是有上升的趨勢 有啦我告訴你 你可以看喔主要 老實講最大的元兇就是大法官釋憲790號釋憲他釋憲之後 你可以看喔 這裡圖表釋憲之後"},{"start":246.693,"end":258.742,"text":"這個串聲了使用毒品電子煙的人數也增加二級毒品受觀察熱切的也增加尿液檢驗大馬成長都暴增了老實講我們就看歷年來對大馬要放寬的事件"},{"start":269.758,"end":295.549,"text":"我們做個review2016年當時的立委叫顧立雄就是這個國防部長顧立雄他就提出來啊接近要把這個毒品處罪化你知道嗎2016年結果2017年蔡英文總統提名四個會的委員兩位提出毒品處罪法2019年另外一個立委主張大麻合法化"},{"start":297.538,"end":324.739,"text":"2020年就是我剛剛提到的大法官釋憲790號釋憲以後大馬勤捷輕微者減刑二分之一結果原來五年本來說2.5年就好了結果法務部一下子把它修法變成一年了那2020年今年民進黨美國的官選團安排大馬上院的一個參會的行程很清楚的看得到民進黨是"},{"start":326.62,"end":330.246,"text":"這個黨是往大馬合法化的角度一直在走這個部長你有沒有接到這個知識啊"},{"start":334.949,"end":361.746,"text":"沒有 我沒有接到任何質詢法務部有沒有法務部跟委員報告大馬不可能合法化大馬是我們強力查緝的這個毒品法務部絕對反對大馬合法化對不對反對 堅決反對你們為什麼當初沒有五年的大法官只是說剪一半就好了你們剪成一年為什麼你知道嗎為什麼因為那個時候我還沒在法務部你不在法務部"},{"start":364.068,"end":376.164,"text":"這法務部就太體貼了就看到這個趨勢了看到這個趨勢幾位長官特別是邱部長你貴為部長你要為我們下一代著想剛才你們的同仁講到"},{"start":378.379,"end":383.723,"text":"報告委員實體商店是絕對不可能買得到的其實就是您剛提到的網路平台"},{"start":396.99,"end":399.571,"text":"你講電子煙加熱煙現在在自由貿易港區一堆啊一堆啊"},{"start":425.829,"end":433.115,"text":"為什麼可以讓他進來?沒有,自由貿易港區的事不能進來對不對?那裡面能不能放麻煩?海陸應該不可以放自由貿易港區?"},{"start":440.306,"end":464.994,"text":"該自由貿易港區設置條例就是不可以放違禁品的對不對那你都已經違法了為什麼可以放那裡如果你的說法說啊這個是轉運而已那毒品可以放那裡啊海洛因就放那裡啊為什麼不可以這個傢伙不能夠成立啊那我炮彈可不可以轉移放那裡也不行啊自由貿易港區的事情我們正在跟財政部這邊共同來協調財政部財政部那個那個署長啊署長啊財政部長官員們在"},{"start":470.429,"end":476.66,"text":"這麽委員是吧來 產生部講一下你對於自由貿易港區的電子煙加熱源怎麽處理"},{"start":479.605,"end":506.716,"text":"跟委員報告齁,財政部這邊自由貿易港區一設置自由貿易港區設置管理條例,它是15條,裡面有這樣一個規定15條規定很清楚嘛,違禁品不可以啊那現在這個違禁品的定義有沒有包括剛剛講的這個誰來定義,請問你誰來定義那這個部分是自由貿易港區的主管機關他們說是你們,你們說是委務部不是我們定義的嘛來,那個部長啊,今天你關最大,可不可以在這裡承諾嗯"},{"start":508.516,"end":521.984,"text":"一個月裡面 把它整合一下 自由貿易港區一堆電子煙、加熱煙的裡面 把它處理可以嗎那這個部分海關跟那個衛福部跟那個交通部隊員 有在對這個我現在就請邱部長啦 你給我們承諾一下可以嗎"},{"start":525.421,"end":539.54,"text":"一個月裡面把這事情解決掉你協調各部位把它解決然後對話公佈可以嗎對對對你就來當主事者因為你是衛福部管健康的嘛"},{"start":541.522,"end":563.239,"text":"這個主管機關還是在交通部跟財政部?交通部沒有管這個啦!我都去問過了!財政部在財政部?交通部沒有啦!財政部也不管!這個健康分析就是衛福部啦!今天部長在這裡!部長承諾吧!一個月裡面你協調各大財政部、交通部一起把這個...我們一定會去協調!一個月?一個月內一定協調!好!一個月內把這個做出來!好不好!這個我們報告齁!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝賴委員!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1159,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時1分）謝謝主席。有請衛福部邱部長以及法務部郭司長、警政署吳警政監，以及教育部吳司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：幾位長官好。請問，現在校園毒品是不是更嚴重？是不是？哪一位可以回答？"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛的統計是有稍微增加，是不是教育部剛剛有……"],["賴委員士葆：教育部長官吳司長要不要回答？簡單的，因為我時間有限，是不是比以前嚴重？"],["吳司長林輝：今年的同期跟去年同期比較是略微增加。"],["賴委員士葆：比較嚴重啦！你還可以看喔，幾位長官聽好，1到9月份有一個喪屍煙彈，就是加在電子煙或是加熱菸的，成長58.2倍，裡面就是大麻及依托咪酯，這個是很嚴重的事情。部長，你知道嗎？三級毒品，這個你知道嗎？依托咪酯，還是哪一位？法務部的長官要不要跟我們comment一下？法務部的長官要不要講一下？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，自從少年事件處理法已經定了之後，其實法務部檢察官的角色已經淡化掉，所以如果施用三、四級毒品的青少年、小朋友那些是由警政署這邊來……"],["賴委員士葆：警政署。"],["郭司長永發：少輔會。"],["賴委員士葆：警政署要不要講一下？"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，關於這個部分，因為校園自主，所以我們警政署針對這部分會跟少輔會聯繫。"],["賴委員士葆：那就不用玩啦！校園自主，你們都不用管，1到9月份飆漲58倍之多，這是這兩天媒體揭露的。我們來看，邱部長，你是部長，比較大，你知不知道旁邊7-11便利商店隨時都可以買到電子煙，加熱菸也隨時可以買到，你知道嗎？你知道嗎？你都不知道欸！"],["邱部長泰源：便利商店可以買到喔？"],["賴委員士葆：隨時可以買到啦！"],["邱部長泰源：現在是違法。"],["賴委員士葆：現在是違法啊！請問加熱菸跟電子煙合法嗎？合法嗎？你講。"],["邱部長泰源：目前還是違法。"],["賴委員士葆：到現在電子煙是違法，加熱菸是要申請，但是到現在為止，你們一家都沒有准嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：目前還沒有通過。"],["賴委員士葆：所以加熱菸、電子煙，問題是你到旁邊7 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00多公里對300多公里但是高雄相對遠一點航程時間接近多了一倍的航程時間國內航程最長的一條線所以就會有加油的問題那目前的困難點是遇到加油的部分需要中油來協助如果我們的飛機飛到那邊有的加油的話我覺得這個航線的價值性可能會再更高一些是的"},{"start":378.797,"end":398.242,"text":"那我知道委員在爭取之前的這10趟航班已經非常不容易但是確實如果你只飛10次的包機但是我現在看這個數據看起來包機的承載率還可以7成以上但是大部分是觀光所以我們大概也會朝觀光的推廣的角度繼續希望討論能不能再延長"},{"start":400.851,"end":415.411,"text":"目前我們馬祖防衛司令部住在高雄的人阿兵哥大概有800人左右他們每個禮拜放假有130個人所以現在有很多的士官所以這個部分就不算有可能算在觀光裡面"},{"start":416.032,"end":418.134,"text":"時間很有限這十班的飛機意味著只有一個月多一點所以我拜託是不是請民航局"},{"start":443.007,"end":457.988,"text":"負起主導的責任要協調中油怎麼樣把油管車送到那邊去然後加油的技術人員起碼要做一個培訓把這個任務完成五階段已經過關了五階段過關了"},{"start":460.185,"end":484.442,"text":"那對民航局而言沒有什麼問題剛才部長一直把這個風向導向觀光民航導向觀光觀光署能夠補助這個錢嗎?沒辦法這個錢一定要從民航作業基金裡面虧損的部分還有我昨天也告訴華信公司每一班飛機每個航線都要虧損你們都要爭取補助嗎?你們可以自給自足啊因為70個人"},{"start":487.182,"end":493.845,"text":"跟50個人意味著什麼?現在票價是3960塊包機的票價如果能夠承載70個人的話這個票價有機會降到3200塊而且華信可以打平"},{"start":505.151,"end":521.345,"text":"所以把它成為固定航班民航局不一定要從民航作業經理裡面支出非常大的一個數額所以我還是拜託何局長你回去趕快研究一下因為11月6號啟動以後只有一個月的時間這一個月的時間你要做一些"},{"start":525.273,"end":552.66,"text":"前置作業讓把它轉換成固定航班而且督促華信、華信航空華信航空目前飛馬組是賺錢的喔要不要請何主席回應一下要非常謝謝委員在這一條航線的推動上我想剛剛委員講的要我們協調我們一定盡全力來協調包含中油的加油問題或者是華信這邊公司的態度因為要申請定期航班要華信那這個部分我們盡力來協調"},{"start":553.88,"end":581.483,"text":"那主要還是加油因為剛剛我也有提到70個位置只賣50個位置的話其他損益良貧其實在整個運作上不是那麼有效率所以如果加油問題可以解決我覺得這條航線的局長現在不是互推責任的時候不能互推中油他現在講說油罐車跟那個保險是馬油你馬祖那邊是馬油當時我時任縣長的時候中油說我們在公司化了馬祖油品公司要獨立出去"},{"start":582.776,"end":603.718,"text":"我是忍痛把他認養,認養這個兒子你現在中油怎麼可以講說,那不是我家的兒子你在全台灣的各港口機場是你們中油的責任,然後你們就給油罐車"},{"start":605.336,"end":629.113,"text":"就給這個加油的保險那現在馬油不是,那我們把馬祖油品公司,我也不管啦我看你中央政府要不要派馬祖不要加油嗎?你中油沒有責任嗎?難道會請台塑過去,台塑會聽這個指令嗎?不可能你中油勢必要在馬祖成立中油公司你們如果要這樣做的話,那我就我就把油停掉把油停掉我來請問行政院"},{"start":629.793,"end":652.605,"text":"你中油公司在幹什麼?你中油公司要派人來然後我要申請個油罐車你說只借到12月底三個月沒關係你買新的給我啊你買個新的油罐車給我啊你不能說全台灣的這些加油公司都是你兒子馬阿祖的油品公司可能是外面領養的還是小三生的你不能這樣處理啊是不是"},{"start":653.405,"end":669.178,"text":"所以羅副董你回答我一下油的問題是委員好有關於航油車這個部分水長在這邊跟委員報告整個這個作業我們已經都ready好油櫃也準備好原本我們是9月份就要運到我們的這個"},{"start":670.956,"end":695.266,"text":"沒有原本的問題啊我這個事情已經寫到半年還不止了那現在就是說我們原本只是跟委員在討論這個包機部分嘛那回頭如果固定航班因為現在整個我們會再整體再來評估看看如果我們一定會往促成這方面來進行我請問如果是固定航班的話你油罐車要不要給我們還有你的油的保險要不要處理"},{"start":695.856,"end":721.897,"text":"如果能夠不影響我現在在高雄的機場這個部分一定全力支持油罐車的影響高雄機場什麼關係不是小港機場沒有加油的問題啊只是馬路有加油的問題啊我這個航遊車是從高雄機場的這個這邊借過去的啦那如果不要影響到他那邊一定來往這方面你們借油罐車給我啊我已經勉強接受了按照規矩你們買個新的油罐車給我"},{"start":723.14,"end":738.453,"text":"我已經很忍耐了,是不是?我已經很忍耐,不然你買個新的給我啊。你說馬祖油品公司不是你們的兒子的話,那我就請我們聯商線路把油品公司撤掉。請問中油有沒有派個公司到馬祖來?"},{"start":739.69,"end":764.742,"text":"然後馬祖這些輪船、飛機、車輛都不要加油嗎這是中華民國政府欸是中央政府要負責的剛才我也跟部長開宗明義的講啊行的便利、交通的便捷、整個的連結你台灣這邊有高鐵、有捷運、有什麼花了幾百億、幾千億、幾兆你馬祖這個小小一個事情是不是你連高雄"},{"start":766.274,"end":782.953,"text":"各位數非花蓮各位數你的造飛都固定航線你媽的為什麼給我停掉我等了20年了現在的觀光人口從以前的每年10萬人已經到40幾萬人了不一樣了所以中油道"},{"start":784.212,"end":798.548,"text":"明晚去開會你們不要再推山阻石喔你們再推來推去我就找中油好不好你不能說油罐車我借給你借到12月底沒關係啊你借到12月底你買個新的給我你買一台新的油罐車給我你說這技術人員"},{"start":799.862,"end":817.97,"text":"我們都忍耐到說我們願意派個人去裡面培訓因為加飛機的汽油跟加汽車的汽油是不一樣的狀況是不是這裡面有保險,保險要幾千萬你叫連央縣政府把房子賣掉來繳這個錢嗎?怎麼可能?好不好,羅副總你回去研究,一個禮拜之內給我答覆,可以嗎?"},{"start":821.038,"end":843.398,"text":"那何局長這邊我就拜託部長,部長也交代啦好不好你不能十半飛機停掉啊,我想早上我不曉得許智傑委員還有李昆仁委員有沒有諮詢到這一點他們很關心啊,這個才是實質的關心既然在我們立法院的交通委員會有那麼多藍綠的委員在關心這條航線我拜託部長"},{"start":844.69,"end":870.328,"text":"你年輕有為你有魄力,希望你這個第一項把它打響,把這個事情不要停掉你停掉的話,我們馬祖的群眾、馬祖的民眾也好,還有軍人軍人為什麼許智傑委員還有李昆哲委員那麼關心?他們是高雄的子弟,800個人住在高雄屏東他回家的路有一些現在是士官役了,轉任士官役,他們戶口都遷到馬祖去"},{"start":871.656,"end":879.669,"text":"如果把油料問題解決那邊可以加油就可以滿載70個人票價不要到3900多塊可以降到3200"},{"start":881.345,"end":904.531,"text":"而且你在票價審議委員會的時候,3200應該華信就可以吸收了所以也不需要你動用民航作業基金部長你覺得我這樣講法有道理嗎?我們朝這個方向來努力朝這個方向,我希望能夠說到做到好不好?部長我也拜託你,你非常年輕而且非常有魄力我希望你幫我完成這件事情,還有羅副總你回去"},{"start":905.391,"end":913.262,"text":"因為董事長今天列席在經濟委員會他沒辦法親自來所以羅副總我想你也是底下的技術官僚你幫我協助這問題有關這你舊的運過來借我們用沒關係"},{"start":918.41,"end":946.383,"text":"你不能說給我限到12底啊12月底的話那你買對不起你買一台新的給我不然的話我斷然措施請林鄉縣政府把郵品公司把它切斷切斷以後你們中油公司要派派中油公司到分公司到馬祖來要進駐馬祖然後所有的責任你們要去負責你願意這樣做嗎你划不來嘛對不對現在就這個一個加油的問題能夠幫我們解決就不是很好的事情嗎好不好"},{"start":948.192,"end":952.482,"text":"所以剛才部長說朝觀光儲備部分去處理"},{"start":953.632,"end":971.34,"text":"那不是正道那都是臨時性的請我們民航局我們現在的包機先這樣處理我想請民航局主動的很積極的去主導這件事情這才是正道好不好部長謝謝部長、謝謝羅副總、謝謝何局長我們謝謝組長、謝謝趙偉、謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時51分）謝謝召委，請交通部陳部長、民航局何局長、中油羅副總。"],["主席：請陳部長、何局長、羅副總。"],["陳委員雪生：部長早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：部長年輕有為，希望您展現魄力，多為交通做點事情。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：我今天的質詢重點是馬祖到高雄航線，大概是配合南竿機場，馬祖的南竿機場是94年1月14日啟用，那時候馬祖高雄航線已經起飛了，後來到11月，只飛了11個月就停飛了，為什麼？因為人流不足、流量等等原因。"],["陳部長世凱：載客率不足。"],["陳委員雪生：對，到現在113年，停飛20年了，所以相較臺北飛高雄、屏東航線或是飛花蓮航線，雖然都是個位數，他們還是用固定航班在飛，當然現在高雄可能停止了。在10月14日在高雄，縣長、議長、本席，還有高雄市陳其邁市長，還有4位交通委員會的委員都蒞臨了這個記者會，這個記者會也非常成功。昨天10月22日我們又跟許智傑委員共同主持了一個協調會，為什麼呢？因為11月6日交通委員會到馬祖考察，就在當天，我選定那個時間就是高雄跟馬祖航線要復航，這是用包機的方式，只有十趟。這十趟包機是用觀光的名義，觀光署給了100萬元，連江縣政府動支第二預備金花了500萬元，也就是這600萬元飛了十趟，那以後怎麼辦呢？現在我們交通部委員會很多委員很關心這個問題，為什麼呢？一旦復航，然後飛了十班以後又把它停止，我們鄉親會罵死，我想這條路不只是交通的一個連結，也是行的便利，中央政府本來就有責任，是不是？你在各縣市做高鐵，成本多高啊！現在花這麼一點點小錢，而且我們的十班已經全部滿載了，所謂滿載是50個人，一班飛機因為省油的問題，所以……"],["陳部長世凱：那是因為載油的問題，所以有下降。"],["陳委員雪生：所以我想不只是中央政府的責任，更多是一條情感的橋梁，對許多南部在外地的鄉親來說，每一次回家的路都是充滿了思念跟期待的旅程，這條航線就讓這一份思念不再被距離所阻礙，特別對於那些在南部、在馬祖打拚的這些朋友，也有軍人，也有一些工程上協助我們的人，希望回家的路不要再漫長了，家庭的團聚就不再遙遠，讓回家的路能夠變得更近、更便捷、更順暢。","昨天協商會裡面有個問題，這十班飛完以後，民航局是不是在這十班的時間、一個月的時間做前置作業，包括後面是不是繼續要飛？昨天開完會以後，我跟我們縣長討論，我們縣政府的錢是動支第二預備金，各位曉得馬祖的財政狀況級距是第五，第五就是非常艱困、非常艱困，所以在這樣的情形之下可能沒有錢。昨天民航局跟中油也不敢給我一個確切的承諾，所以今天部長來了，我拜託部長，是不是督促民航局，我希望中央能夠負起對各縣市政府，尤其對偏遠離島交通的責任，一個行人的權利及便利，能夠負起完整的責任來。","目前的問題大概是滿載可以坐70人，所以再扯到加油問題了，馬祖沒有加油站，不是，有加油站，但是沒有加飛機的油，你要在那邊設加油站要有油罐車，還有一個油料的特別責任保險，我等一下再問中油，我現在請教部長，這十班飛完以後能不能把它轉換為固定航班？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您當時在爭取航班的包機非常用心，也非常努力，所以觀光署也特別以促進觀光的角度，我們也給100萬元來補助，民航局也相當努力趕快把航班促成，所以有十次的來回。現在的問題是在於臺北跟臺中飛往南竿沒有加油的問題，因為距離相對近。"],["陳委員雪生：三百多公里。"],["陳部長世凱：對，三百多公里，但是高雄相對遠一點，航程多了接近一倍的航程時間。"],["陳委員雪生：國內航程最長的……"],["陳部長世凱：對，國內航程最長的一條線，所以就會有加油的問題，那目前的困難點是加油部分需要中油來協助，如果我們的飛機飛到那邊有得加油的話，我覺得這個航線的價值性可能會再更高一些。我知道委員在爭取之前這十趟航班已經非常不容易，但是確實如果只飛十次的包機，就現在這個數據看起來，包機的乘載率還可以，有七成以上，但是大部分是觀光，所以我們大概也會朝觀光推廣的角度，希望繼續討論能不能再延長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我打斷一下，目前馬祖防衛司令部中，住在高雄的阿兵哥大概有800人左右，他們每個禮拜放假的有130人，所以現在有很多的士官……"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個部分就不可能算在觀光裡面，他們給我的數據可能觀光裡面包含了這些阿兵哥，因為沒有設籍在那邊就不算居民，確實委員您爭取的這個，我們來努力啦，中油如果可以把油的部分做改變，或者是讓我們更方便的話，我們請民航局這邊來做研議，就是朝延長的方向來做努力。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，時間很有限，這十班的飛機意味著只有一個月多一點的時間，所以我拜託民航局負起督導的責任，要協調中油，怎麼樣把油罐車送到那邊去，然後對加油的技術人員起碼要做一些培訓，把這個任務完成。五階段都已經過關了，對民航局而言會什麼問題？剛才部長一直把風向導向觀光，觀光署能夠補助這個錢嗎？沒辦法！這個錢一定要從民航作業基金裡面，就是虧損的部分。還有我昨天也告訴華信公司，每一班飛機、每一個航線都虧損的話，你們都要爭取補助嗎？你們可以自給自足啊，因為70個人跟50個人意味著什麼呢？現在包機的票價是3,960元，如果能夠搭載70個人，這個票價有機會降到3,200元，而且華信可以打平，所以把它成為固定航班，民航局不一定要從民航作業基金裡面支出這個非常大的數額，所以我還是拜託何局長，回去趕快研究一下，因為11月6日啟動後只有一個月的時間，你要做一些前置作業，把它轉換成固定航班，而且要督促華信航空，華信航空目前飛馬祖是賺錢的喔！"],["陳部長世凱：要不要請何局長說明？"],["陳委員雪生：是，請何局長說明。"],["何局長淑萍：非常謝謝委員，在這一條航線的推動上，剛剛委員講要我們協調，我們一定盡全力來協調，包含中油的加油問題，或者是華信公司這邊的態度，因為要申請定期航班要華信配合，那這個部分我們盡力來協調。主要還是加油，剛剛委員提到70個位置只賣50個位置的話，就損益兩平來看，其實在整個運作上不是那麼的有效率，所以如果加油問題可以解決，我覺得這條航線的……"],["陳委員雪生：局長，現在不是互推責任的時候，不能互推！"],["何局長淑萍：沒錯，沒錯！"],["陳委員雪生：現在中油講油罐車跟保險是馬油，馬祖那邊是馬油，當時我擔任縣長的時候，中油說他們現在公司化，馬祖油品公司要獨立出去，我是忍痛把它認養耶，認養這個兒子，現在中油怎麼可以講說那不是我家的兒子？何局長請回，沒關係。在全臺灣的各港口、機場是中油的責任，然後你們就給油罐車，就給加油的保險；現在馬油不是，那我們把馬祖油品公司也不管了，我看你中央政府要不要派，馬祖不要加油嗎？中油沒有責任嗎？難道會請台塑過去，台塑會聽這個指令嗎？不可能！中油勢必要在馬祖成立中油公司，你們如果要這樣做的話，我就把油停掉，把油停掉，我來請問行政院，你中油公司在幹什麼？你中油公司要派人來，然後我要申請一個油罐車，你說只借到12月底，3個月，沒關係，你買新的給我啊，你買個新的油罐車給我啊！你不能說全臺灣這些加油公司都是你兒子，馬祖的油品公司可能是外面領養的還是小三生的，不能這樣處理啊！是不是？羅副總回答我一下油的問題。"],["羅副總經理博童：是，委員好。有關於航油車這個部分，在這邊跟委員報告，整個作業我們已經都ready好，油櫃也準備好，原本我們是9月份就要運到……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有原本的問題啊，我這個事情已經協調半年還不止了。"],["羅副總經理博童：原本只是跟委員在討論包機的部分，回頭如果要固定航班，因為現在我們會再整體來評估看看，我們一定會往促成這方面來進行。"],["陳委員雪生：我請問如果是固定航班的話，油罐車要不要給我們？還有油的保險要不要處理？"],["羅副總經理博童：如果能夠不影響現在在高雄機場這個部分，一定全力支持油罐車的……"],["陳委員雪生：跟影響高雄機場有什麼關係？"],["羅副總經理博童：不是……"],["陳委員雪生：小港機場沒有加油的問題，是馬祖有加油的問題啊！"],["羅副總經理博童：我是說航油車是從高雄機場借過去的，如果不要影響到它，一定往這方面……"],["陳委員雪生：你們借油罐車給我，我已經勉強接受了，按照規矩是你們買個新的油罐車給我，我已經很忍耐了，是不是？我已經很忍耐，不然你買個新的給我啊！你說馬祖油品公司不是你們的兒子，那我就請我們連江縣政府把油品公司撤掉，請問中油要不要派個公司到馬祖來？然後馬祖這些輪船、飛機、車輛都不要加油嗎？這是中華民國政府耶！是中央政府要負責的，剛才我也跟部長開宗明義的講了，行的便利、交通的便捷還有整個的連結，臺灣這邊有高鐵、有捷運、有什麼，花了幾百億、幾千億、幾兆，馬祖這個小小一個事情，是不是？你連飛高雄個位數、飛花蓮個位數，你都照飛，且都是固定航線，馬祖為什麼給我停掉？我忍了20年了，現在的觀光人口從以前每年10萬人已經到四十幾萬人了，不一樣啊！所以中油到民航局開會，你們不要再推三阻四了，你們再推來推去，我就找中油，你不能說油罐車借給我，只借到12月底，沒關係啊！你借到12月底，那你買台新的油罐車給我！你說要技術人員，我們都忍耐到我們願意派個人去你們那邊培訓，因為加飛機的汽油跟加汽車的汽油是不一樣的狀況，而且這裡面有保險，保險要幾千萬，你叫連江縣政府把房子賣掉來繳這個錢嗎？怎麼可能？好不好？羅副總回去研究，一個禮拜之內給我答復，可以嗎？"],["羅副總經理博童：好，是。"],["陳委員雪生：那何局長這邊，我就拜託部長了，部長也交代了，好不好？你不能十班飛機之後停掉啊，我不曉得早上許智傑委員和李昆澤委員有沒有質詢到這一點。"],["陳部長世凱：他們有質詢到。"],["陳委員雪生：他們很關心，這個才是實質的關心，既然在我們立法院交通委員會有那麼多藍綠的委員關心這條航線，我拜託部長，您年輕有為，您有魄力，希望你把這個第一槍打響，把這個事情不要停掉，停掉的話，我們馬祖的群眾或是民眾也好，還有軍人，為什麼許智傑委員和李昆澤委員那麼關心？他們是高雄的子弟，800個人住在高雄、屏東，那是他們回家的路，有一些現在都轉任士官役了，他們戶口都遷到馬祖去，如果把油料問題解決，那邊可以加油，就可以滿載70個人，票價不要到三千九百多元，可以降到3,200元，而且你在票價審議委員會的時候，3,200元華信應該就可以吸收了，所以也不需要你動用民航作業基金，部長，你覺得我這樣講法有道理嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們朝這個方向來努力。"],["陳委員雪生：朝這個方向，我希望你能夠說到做到，好不好？部長，我也拜託你，你非常年輕，而且非常有魄力，我希望你幫我完成這件事情。另外，因為董事長今天列席經濟委員會，他沒辦法親自來，羅副總是底下的技術官僚，你幫我協助這個問題，把舊的油罐車運過來借我們用沒關係，但你不能給我限到12月底，到12月底的話，對不起，你買一台新的給我，不然的話我斷然做出，請連江縣政府把油品公司切斷，切斷以後，你們要派中油分公司到馬祖來，要進駐馬祖，然後所有的責任你們要去負責，你願意這樣做嗎？你划不來嘛，對不對？現在就這個加油問題能夠幫我們解決，這不是很好的事情嗎？所以剛才部長說朝觀光署補助部分去處理，那不是正道，都是臨時性的，請我們民航局……"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在的包機先這樣處理。"],["陳委員雪生：對，但是只有十班啊，所以我請民航局主動的、很積極的去主導這件事情，這才是正道，部長，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，謝謝羅副總，謝謝何局長，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝民航局跟中油公司，今天因為你們沒有列到專報的主題，但是因為委員額外關心，你們可以先行離席，謝謝。","繼續進行質詢，請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"155978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6308f05492614323498446428ab222207f66e8eac7fc2cd0ecf5e92c6d24b32f115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:41:58 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11:50:43","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-23","start_time":"2024-10-23T11:41:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-23T11:50:43+08:00","duration":525,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.06846875,"end":5.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.835968750000001,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.35471875,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.52659375,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.083468750000002,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.95534375,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.77659375,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.39096875,"end":47.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.22596875,"end":51.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.140968750000006,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.46034375000001,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.47284375,"end":62.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.47909375,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.21221875,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.64534375000001,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.84284375,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.92909375,"end":127.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.69034375000001,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.39659375000002,"end":170.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.44721875000002,"end":175.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.05409375000002,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.83784375000002,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.42284375,"end":195.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.79784375,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.45596875,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.79909375000003,"end":255.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.66596875,"end":266.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.21721875000003,"end":266.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.77409375,"end":289.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.51721875000004,"end":297.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.30096875000004,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.57471875000005,"end":308.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.87721875,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.92534375,"end":327.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.76034375,"end":331.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.04659375,"end":334.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.64971875000003,"end":334.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.03346875,"end":355.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.25409375000004,"end":358.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.01284375,"end":383.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.48159375,"end":393.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.48846875000004,"end":417.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.37846875,"end":396.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.71284375000005,"end":418.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.59846875000005,"end":422.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.02846875,"end":428.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.43721875,"end":425.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.19659375000003,"end":426.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.55034375,"end":430.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.26721875000004,"end":432.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.00971875000005,"end":440.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.07596875,"end":442.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.50596875,"end":444.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.88534375,"end":451.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.60596875000005,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.31471875000005,"end":457.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.73159375,"end":465.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.78096875000006,"end":487.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.36409375000005,"end":493.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.10596875000005,"end":492.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.83971875000003,"end":500.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.15096875,"e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to Safe的這個機制我們要求也比較嚴格"},{"start":280.911,"end":286,"text":"那這個日立廠商有做這個深入的研究就他已經有發現過的這個問題都有在做改進"},{"start":290.726,"end":306.731,"text":"希望董事長這邊可以改善希望臺鐵繼續努力這邊也邀請部長這邊來督促臺鐵公司因為這攸關我們國人上班族每天通勤的因為部長也有提到希望把影響降到最低希望這邊部長來督促臺鐵董事長我們這邊再來看到債務人員遭受攻擊的問題"},{"start":312.873,"end":334.569,"text":"今年4月3號在臺鐵在臺鐵高雄站就有發生那8月7號在臺鐵大林站也有發生9月20號在臺鐵羅東站也有發生那當然還有其他很多的例子啊本期這邊就不一一舉例了那為什麼臺鐵站務人員遭受攻擊或是遭受民眾辱罵的事件不斷發生呢臺鐵這邊有沒有要來做改進"},{"start":335.109,"end":358.22,"text":"是是是,這個我們有去看紀錄,類似的情形我們在112年以前每一年發生的件數大概是兩件左右那今年的確比較多一點那我們去分析,大部分都是乘務人員跟我們這個車站的戰務人員我們這邊可以提供戰務人員還有,戰務人員有什麼樣的協助?"},{"start":359.282,"end":381.087,"text":"有有,政務人員如果碰到這種情形第一時間當然我們會去車站或者是警方會去支援那第二個就是在事後如果我們的人員他有需要他認為他要提出這個告訴或者是對他自己的一個法律的一個保障我們這個會積極去協助他"},{"start":383.507,"end":402.373,"text":"董事長本身認為這些都沒有辦法有效保護第一線的戰務人員那臺鐵公司有沒有考慮過就是研議讓我們的列車人員、戰務人員都配掛迷路棋這個我們有在研議的我們有在研議因為我們現階段是在看就是因為我們是公司嘛我們在法規面是不是適當"},{"start":403.473,"end":427.911,"text":"然後這個另外就是我們也要徵詢一下我們同仁的他們的意見是不是適合用公發的方式那初期我們會在車上已經演繹多久了請教董事長有一個多月了一個多月那再請董事長提供書面資料給本席的辦公室好的好的那我們接下來看到臺鐵的投票問題董事長您知道他是誰嗎"},{"start":432.244,"end":437.305,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司"},{"start":457.791,"end":486.449,"text":"在臺鐵討票的紀錄那討票對臺鐵公司一定是重大的損失是董事長對於討票的問題您要怎麼來解決?是其實跟委員報告我們現在有發生討票或者是他有越級乘車這種情形跟以往比較不一樣因為現在我們在密集的地區我們立體化的車站變得比較多所以他要經過這個我們鐵路的古道來討票現在是不太會發生的"},{"start":486.829,"end":510.285,"text":"所以現在我們… 董事長,逃票的這個行為不但造成臺鐵損失,也影響社會風氣啊,那臺鐵有沒有演繹?有啊,我們對於逃票的這個行為,我們還是會加強,好,來做預防,包括車站跟車廂 那有沒有要來修改相關的法規?法規我們是只能遵循鐵路法,只能遵循鐵路法"},{"start":511.363,"end":521.101,"text":"董事長本席的建議實在應該跟鐵道局還有法務部警政署做跨部會的演繹畢竟這個對於社會風氣都有很嚴重的影響好這個我們來考慮OK好以上謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時42分）謝謝主席。主席，請杜董事長。"],["主席：請臺鐵杜董事長。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：董事長早。我們先來看，根據臺鐵公司提供的資料，臺鐵公司所營運的軌道路網共計1,072.3公里，為全國第一；載客量也從110年的1億5,493萬人次成長到110年的1億7,025萬人次；112年載客量高達2億1,931萬人次，1到7月也累積了1億3,629.5萬人次，代表臺鐵是國人重要的公共運輸工具，臺鐵的行車安全至關重要。在此本席要就教董事長，我們先來看臺鐵列車故障不斷，而臺鐵的積極作為是什麼。請播放影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：我們可以看到旅客從一輛區間車下來之後到另外一輛。這是發生在今年9月5號臺鐵3078車次的影片，原3078車次發生故障，民眾必須從一班列車轉到對向月臺的另外一班；還有民眾因為趕轉列車而跌倒。","我們再來看另外一部影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：這是今年9月11日臺鐵161車次發生的問題。由於自強號都是長途旅客，所以我們從影片中可以看到旅客帶著大包小包，民眾在轉車的時候也造成列車誤點，進而影響班次。","我們來看臺鐵提供的資料，臺鐵近三年的列車故障班次都在兩百件以上，造成誤點的時間都在1萬分鐘以上，影響的旅客日平均高達379人次。至於列車主要故障原因，可以看到是因為列車煞車系統作動異常還有電車線、供電設備保護切斷等等。其中區間車的故障次數最多，再來是自強號，以PP自強號的故障次數最高，最新型的EMU 3000故障次數也有逐年增加的趨勢。今年1到8月，光是區間車的故障次數就達74次，過往三年也都超過100次。區間車是我國上班族的主要通勤工具之一，請問董事長，如何降低區間車的故障次數？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，關於區間車部分，現在900型新車投入進來後都還很正常，發生故障的車種大部分都是比較舊式的500型跟600型。600型……"],["邱委員若華：我要請教的問題是如何降低。"],["杜董事長微：是，針對500型，我們已經做過動力改造，所以500型在動力改造過後，下一階段的工作就包括車門等其他次系統的再改進，這部分我們正在進行。另外還有600型，600型跟500型屬於同一類車型……"],["邱委員若華：但本席提到，自強號的故障次數有52次、莒光號35次，這是從今年1月到8月的統計，列車故障的原因多為機械故障，這是臺鐵公司所提供的。那麼造成頻繁故障的原因是什麼？是因為人員操作不當還是維修的流程出了問題？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這兩類車，包括推拉式PP還有莒光號，大部分故障都是因為機車頭，這兩類車的機車頭真的是比較老舊一點。"],["邱委員若華：但EMU 3000是最新的車型，最近故障次數也有逐漸升高的趨勢，臺鐵有針對這個問題做出改善嗎？有做通盤的檢討嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有。3000型的故障次數並不是很多啦！主要是因為屬於新車型，我們對於該車型裡的Fail to safe機制要求比較嚴格。廠商日立有做深入的研究，就他們已經發現過的問題都有在做改進。"],["邱委員若華：希望董事長可以改善，希望臺鐵繼續努力啊！我也要請部長督促臺鐵公司，因為這攸關國人、上班族每天的通勤，部長也有提到希望把影響降到最低嘛！所以希望部長來督促臺鐵。","董事長，我們再來看站務人員遭受攻擊的問題。今年4月3日在臺鐵高雄站就有發生；8月7日在臺鐵大林站也有發生；9月20日臺鐵羅東站也有發生，當然還有很多其他例子，本席就不一一舉例了。為什麼臺鐵站務人員遭受攻擊或遭受民眾辱罵的事件不斷發生？臺鐵這邊有沒有要改進？"],["杜董事長微：是，我們有去看紀錄，類似的情形在112年以前每一年發生的件數大概是2件左右，今年的確比較多一點。經過我們分析，發現大部分都是乘務人員跟車站的站務人員……"],["邱委員若華：可以提供站務人員什麼樣的協助？"],["杜董事長微：有，站務人員如果碰到這種情形，我們第一時間當然會去車站、或者警方會去支援。第二點就是在事後，如果我們的人員有需要、認為要提出告訴或者要求對他自己的法律保障，我們會積極協助他。"],["邱委員若華：董事長，我是認為這些都沒有辦法有效保護第一線站務人員，臺鐵公司有沒有考慮、研議過，讓列車人員、站務人員都佩掛密錄器？"],["杜董事長微：這點我們有在研議啦！"],["邱委員若華：那研議到什麼程度？"],["杜董事長微：現階段是在研究基於我們是公司，在法規面是不是適當。另外，我們也要徵詢一下同仁的意見，討論是不是適合用公發的方式。初期我們會從車上的乘務人員開始。"],["邱委員若華：已經研議多久了，請教董事長？"],["杜董事長微：有一個多月了。"],["邱委員若華：一個多月了？"],["杜董事長微：對，一個多月。"],["邱委員若華：那再請董事長提供書面資料給本席的辦公室。"],["杜董事長微：好的。"],["邱委員若華：接下來看臺鐵的逃票問題。董事長，您知道他是誰嗎？"],["杜董事長微：不知道。"],["邱委員若華：你不知道？但相信很多臺鐵第一線站務人員、列車長都知道這是誰，這是臺鐵的「名人」、也是逃票慣犯，我們來看一下他的影片。沒有影片？好。這位逃票慣犯從2017年就有逃票紀錄，到上個月都還被拍到逃票。在YouTube上只要搜尋「逃票」，都可以看到他在臺鐵逃票的紀錄。逃票對於臺鐵公司來說一定是重大的損失，請問董事長，對於逃票問題，您要怎麼解決？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，其實現在發生的逃票或者是越級乘車情形跟以往比較不一樣，因為現在我們在密集的地區立體化車站變得比較多，所以他要經過我們鐵路來逃票，現在是不太會發生的。所以現在我們……"],["邱委員若華：董事長，逃票行為不但造成臺鐵的損失，也影響社會風氣，臺鐵有沒有研議？"],["杜董事長微：有，我們對於逃票的行為還是會加強來做預防，包括車站跟……"],["邱委員若華：會不會修改相關的法規？"],["杜董事長微：法規部分，我們只能遵循鐵路法。"],["邱委員若華：董事長，本席的建議是應該跟鐵道局還有法務部、警政署做跨部會的研議，因為這對社會風氣都有很嚴重的影響。"],["杜董事長微：好，這個我們來考慮。"],["邱委員若華：以上，謝謝。"],["杜董事長微：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"155977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6391dfe3556a3457678446428ab222207f66e8eac7fc2cd0ec8dd520d2c11f20995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:33:05 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制時機點大概在哪邊？"],["杜董事長微：改制的時間點應該是在明年年中。"],["廖委員先翔：明年年中？"],["杜董事長微：因為現在E500進來只是初期而已，正常來說，上線運轉後，大概到明年年中跟下半年就比較可以正常地輪替。"],["廖委員先翔：好。如果是明年底跟今年底來做比較的話，就講都會區，例如北北基桃，在搭乘尖峰時刻的載客量可以提升多少？"],["杜董事長微：大概10%左右。"],["廖委員先翔：可以再提升10%的運能？"],["杜董事長微：明年、明年。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那就拜託臺鐵準時啦！因為臺鐵交車的時候常常都晚了，雖然不一定是你們的問題啦！","另外要跟兩位討論一下的就是我們鼓勵國人國旅，在討論鼓勵國旅的時候，也鼓勵國人多多使用大眾運輸，包括鐵道嘛！過去對於鐵道，大家可能只把它當作運輸工具的一部分而已，其實在很多國外知名景點、好玩的地方，旅途過程就已經是進入旅程當中了。比如說要去迪士尼玩，迪士尼的專門列車一進去就有沉浸感了嘛！對不對？或者去日本的京都、他們的嵐山，大家還特地去搭當地的嵐山小火車，它反而成為重要的觀光因子了，不是運輸而已，運輸反而在觀光行程裡面。而我知道臺鐵好像有針對觀光支線的觀光列車計畫，好像原定明年上路嘛！不曉得相關期程是怎麼樣。因為剛剛委員提到的山嵐號跟海風號好像都延了兩、三年才上路啦！請問支線觀光列車的進度如何？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個不太一樣。山嵐號、海風號是觀光局的列車啦！剛剛委員提到的支線也是一種觀光型態列車，但是還肩負一般支線的輸運，所以不太一樣。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["杜董事長微：至於上線期程，以現在的進程，因為那是台車公司在製造，我們正在跟他們緊密配合，現在預估是要到115年。"],["廖委員先翔：喔！115年？我瀏覽了新聞，最近的新聞是說明年中第一輛可能可以交車，那現在又要從2025年要延到2026年？"],["杜董事長微：應該是2026年的第一季或第二季。"],["廖委員先翔：第一季或第二季？首輛投入的列車會選擇先在哪一條支線營運？"],["杜董事長微：現在還沒有決定。"],["廖委員先翔：還沒有定喔？"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好啦！其實在所有支線中，平溪線的運量應該是最高的啦！在疫情前，搭乘人次應該都是破百萬的，是其他支線的好幾倍，那我在這邊也要拜託臺鐵，當然時間上就拜託台車那邊儘快，我也希望第一輛列車可以投入我們的平溪線營運，一部分是基於效益會最大，因為搭乘人次會是最多的，也是最有指標性的；另一部分也是希望指標性列車推出之後，對臺鐵的社會形象也有正面的幫助。後續再麻煩杜董事長請同仁來本席辦公室說明一下剛剛我提到的兩個部分，一個是關於北北基桃，您剛剛提到四列改為八列、運能提升的部分；另外一個就是觀光支線列車的相關進程、進度以及比較細部的規劃，好不好？謝謝部長、謝謝董事長。"],["杜董事長微：好。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員。","接下來有請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"155976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63cd6901fd3e56bafaea3bc5a9eeba56a866e8eac7fc2cd0ec53e23ddd97f11bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:57:57 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收到陳情就是我今年4月也有問文化部目前檢舉的標準真的太嚴格了以你們創造的這個表單來講你等於是要先買黃牛票才能夠查黃牛票我也問了文化部文化部留給我很長的內容我發現文化部留給我的內容讀起來看好像怎麼改善"},{"start":285.049,"end":313.8,"text":"你們就是一下修要說要根據修社會秩序維護法一下就是說文創這個上次修過的法還不夠還要再修我是其實是覺得有一點點失望欸上一次就是好不容易大家這樣大修之後可是當時文化部的版本沒有預測到執行還是有問題現在跟我們提的方式說不然修社會秩序維護法要不然文創法什麼某一條還要再修那到底"},{"start":314.62,"end":339.678,"text":"有沒有可能在就是真的要再修法還是你們目前的行政作為就是降低檢舉門檻是不是可以做到的因為就我自己來研究的話也許你就降低檢舉的門檻要針對黃牛的圖利行為而非販售事後才追查因為我看你們給我的資料臺北市光是資料不全的就600多件那已經資料齊全的"},{"start":343.22,"end":371.534,"text":"如果沒有記錯的話兩三百件中好像只有九件各位數被裁罰光是資料符合之後都只有就是這麼低的筆數被裁罰那資料不全的那個以台北市你們給我的資料中法上路之後到現在六百多件都是資料不全你是不是可以針對這個部分好好的檢討那我現在提供兩個方向部長看看是不是可以"},{"start":373.323,"end":387.05,"text":"實名制還是要更積極的加強鼓勵業者使用就像我剛剛講的那個報導中他如果學習日本就是並用實名制的話大幅下降那業者的困難到底是什麼也許我們可以一起來協助為什麼他們不想要用實名制"},{"start":390.171,"end":415.887,"text":"那第二個檢舉的標準是不是可以落實那我這邊提兩個就是能不能夠就以他的行為面在販售而不是說我要釣魚因為我今天買到票才有第幾排這幾個位子嗎那買到票之後不就變成共犯了他就不會來檢舉了那如果這個行為出現的時候然後轉售票合理成本的種類跟比例那這個部分是不是也能夠明定那部長是不是可以簡短回答因為我待會還有一題要請問您"},{"start":418.717,"end":418.737,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":434.344,"end":458.616,"text":"好,那請部長一個月內給我一個報告好不好?初步的報告可以齁?另外我想剛剛有委員談到性別平等部長應該知道我們是亞洲最性別平等的國家可是我們卻沒有一個國家級的婦女性別人權館我們有這麼多的重要歷史世界跟人權婦女性別團體的努力"},{"start":459.456,"end":478.398,"text":"我們辦公室去了解說南韓在婦女權益比我們差很多可是他們已經有婦女歷史館戰爭與女性人權博物館不管是慰安婦或者轉型正義中的女性的資料烏克蘭也都有相關的而是他們性別平權的指數都還不比我們"},{"start":479.099,"end":491.68,"text":"所以請問部長如果台灣要設立婦女性別人權管您覺得可以如何規劃呢?第一個您就是認不認同應該要這樣管第二個如果要規劃您覺得可以怎麼規劃呢?"},{"start":494.215,"end":520.233,"text":"其實台灣的婦女的人權的確在全世界的排名是非常前面的所以如果我們要成立一個人權管可能他就是要一個我們在性別的奮鬥的過程中有足夠的歷史但是這個社管這件事情牽涉到行政院的一些管所的那個結構這點你問我要如何規劃我一下還沒想出來"},{"start":522.055,"end":542.294,"text":"對部長還沒想出來但是我謝謝你很認同那你還沒想出方法我最近想了半天想到一個方法跟部長請議我知道你們這個人權館展示的典藏大樓在4月開工那雖然開工前那部長應該有聽聞有一些爭議嘛人權館不同的想法可是看起來已經來不及了"},{"start":542.754,"end":569.7,"text":"就是就在開工了因為這是一個重要的工程又有預算所以我想到的是文化部是不是可以評估那當然也找我們婦女跟人權團性別團體一起人權團一起討論這中間居然這麼多層的話有沒有可能舉例來說譬如說一層他就放在婦女性別人權這個主題上我覺得我今天只是跟你說是不是文化部可以去評估看看部長覺得呢"},{"start":571.192,"end":588.963,"text":"其實我剛剛也被質詢到說這個地方是白色恐怖為主的一些展覽那事實上我來到文化部之後我就希望我們人權館開始推出大型的電影就是講人權電影人權電影裡面就有像剛剛您提到的婦女與性別的人權"},{"start":589.904,"end":603.94,"text":"就是說人群不再限於只有白色恐怖這樣的這個歷史記錄所以您剛才提的我不敢立刻回答你是因為我來的時候他已經開始動工了我得了解一下他裡面原來的一些內容我再回答你"},{"start":604.921,"end":634.39,"text":"當然我想其實地點是不是在那個部分可能有很多要考慮的那我想今天就請部長能夠承諾開始研議第一個婦女性別人權管的可能規劃第二個那很明確的展出應該要含納各歷史時期推動爭取女性權益跟性別平權的過程這樣可以嗎可以那部長我這個時間多一點好了那個是不是您覺得多少時間可以給我一個初步的報告呢"},{"start":635.516,"end":640.46,"text":"大概3個月要不要?好沒問題3個月因為這個好事需要多一點時間來琢磨謝謝部長辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":802,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時58分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員你好。"],["范委員雲：部長早安喔！今天有三件事情要跟您討論，第一件事情，我有聽到部長講，國發基金有四大百億投資，在文創產業的部分，應該是第二個百億吧！文化部打算如何讓基金有更好的發揮，創造臺流不會只有韓流，我想這個部分是不是請部長可以說明一下？"],["李部長遠：首先，外面有點誤會國發基金跟我們的輔導金，其實國發基金是一個投資的概念，投資就是剛開始是投資公司，後來同意我們投資專案，所以我要非常感謝國發會的劉主委，我上任的第一件事情就是拜託他給我們下一個一百億，為什麼呢？因為大家都知道，如果我們沒有足夠的錢，我們完全會在這個產業中消失，因為韓國跟日本投在文創產業，包括影視產業的錢，是遠遠超過我們十倍、二十倍的，所以這個一百億非常重要，我們得用這個一百億去投資，鼓勵民間的資金引到我們整個文創產業。","現在是建立了幾個基金，譬如說，我前面已經報告過的中華電信、遠傳、大哥大，我們先去尋找這些已經擁有能力購買影片跟劇集的公司，跟他們一起投資新的基金，這些錢就可以回流投資影視，也可以購買。到目前為止，這三家電信公司加起來只占整個OTT的百分之二十幾，希望這個部分能夠增加，如果要讓它增加，我們就是要拿出政府的基金，才能引進民間的資金。舉個例子，如果我們出資三分之一，另外的三分之二就要由民間拿錢出來，因此這筆100億元的第一件事情就是做這個；第二件事情就是找國際合作，譬如亞洲的韓國或美國等等，我們可以找他們的大公司一起合作，最希望就是我們影片拍出來可以賣到全世界的市場，這個真的需要我們政府先拿出第一筆錢。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長。聽起來部長非常積極的爭取到這筆100億元，希望國發基金可以真的點燃我們文創產業的火花，當然也希望後續申請各方面都能讓文化工作者覺得更符合他們的需求，我相信文化部正在努力中。","再來，我也想請問部長關於黃牛票的部分，部長應該有注意到，從宇多田光的這則新聞報導可以得知，的確已經開始有實名制，而且會大幅減少不正常的搶票行為。之前我們本來希望修法，讓文化部在法規中就要求實名制，但是當時文化部說要用鼓勵的方式，當然我也知道你們在鼓勵，不過我要講的是，如果實名制不落實，目前的檢舉制度看起來，在文創法修法後黃牛還是很猖獗。以周杰倫的票價為例，不知道部長有沒有注意到，譬如原本4樓座位的票價是1,880元，在黃牛仍然猖獗的情況下，4樓的隨機票價就變成2萬6,000元。","我們辦公室持續去了解情況後發現，第一個，目前鼓勵業者實名制售票的成效還是不佳；第二個，檢舉難以成案。我們收到了陳情，其實今年4月我也問過文化部，目前檢舉的標準真的太嚴格了，以你們制定的表單來講，等於是要先買黃牛票才能夠查黃牛票。我也問了文化部，文化部回復我很長的內容，到底要如何改善，但內容一下說要修社會秩序維護法、一下又說上次修過的文創法還不夠、還要再修，其實我是覺得有一點點失望耶！","上一次大家好不容易大修，但是當時文化部的版本沒有預測到執行還是有問題，現在向我們提出的方式是，要嘛就是修社會秩序維護法，不然就是文創法的某一條還要再修，到底有沒有可能真的要再修法？還是修正你們目前的行政作為，也就是降低檢舉門檻，這個是不是可以做到？就我自己的研究，也許你們就降低檢舉的門檻，應該針對黃牛的圖利行為，而非販售事後才追查。根據你們給我的資料，臺北市光是資料不全的就有六百多件，即使是資料齊全的，如果我沒記錯的話，二、三百件中好像只有個位數的9件被裁罰。光是資料符合之後都只有這麼低的件數被裁罰，那麼資料不全的部分，以臺北市為例，根據你們給我的資料，在法上路之後到現在有六百多件都是資料不全，你們是不是可以針對這個部分好好檢討？","我現在提供兩個方向，部長看看是不是可以？第一個，還是要更積極地加強鼓勵業者使用實名制，就像我剛剛講的那則報導，如果學習日本併用實名制就可以大幅降低不正常的搶票行為。業者的困難到底是什麼，為什麼他們不想用實名制？也許我們可以一起來協助；第二個，檢舉的標準是不是可以落實？我這邊提出兩點，能不能就針對他們販售的行為面，而不是我們用釣魚的方式？因為今天要買到票才有第幾排第幾個位置，但買到票之後不就變成共犯，民眾就不會檢舉了，如果這個行為出現的時候，轉售票合理成本的種類與比例，這個部分是不是也能夠明定？部長是不是可以簡短回答，因為我待會還有一題要請問你。"],["李部長遠：其實我們試著用各種方式，就像剛剛委員講的，沒有錯，因為我們得提供票券的資訊才能夠檢舉等等，弄得很繁瑣，針對委員剛剛講的幾點，我們會再重新討論，看看哪個是比較有效的方式。"],["范委員雲：請部長一個月內給我一份報告，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["范委員雲：初步的報告，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["范委員雲：另外，剛剛有委員談到性別平等，部長應該知道我們是亞洲最性別平等的國家，但是我們卻沒有一個國家級的婦女與性別人權館，況且我們有這麼多重要的歷史事件以及人權、婦女與性別團體的努力。根據我們辦公室的了解，南韓的婦女權益比我們差很多，但是他們已經有婦女歷史館、戰爭與女性人權博物館，無論是慰安婦或轉型正義中的女性資料都有保存，而且烏克蘭相關的性別平權指數都還比不上我們，因此，請問部長，如果臺灣要設立婦女與性別人權館，你覺得可以如何規劃？第一個，你認不認同應該要有這樣的館？第二個，如果要規劃的話，你覺得要如何規劃呢？"],["李部長遠：其實臺灣婦女人權在全世界的排名確實是非常前面，如果我們要成立一個人權館，可能就是要能彰顯出我們在性別奮鬥過程中有足夠的歷史，但是設館這件事情牽涉到行政院一些館所的結構，你問我要如何規劃，我現在還沒想出來，但是我會努力想一想。"],["范委員雲：部長，雖然你還沒想出來，但是我謝謝你很認同，最近我想了半天想到了一個方法，在這裡向部長請益。我知道你們的人權館展示典藏大樓已經在4月開工，在開工前部長應該也聽聞過一些爭議，人權團體有一些不同的想法，但看起來已經來不及了，因為這是一個有預算的重要工程，最後還是開工了。我想到文化部是不是可以評估，當然也要找我們的婦女及性別人權團體一起討論，既然這棟大樓有這麼多層，有沒有可能，譬如一層就放在婦女性別人權這個主題上？今天我只是提議文化部是不是可以評估看看，部長覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：其實剛剛我也被質詢到這個地方是白色恐怖為主的一些展覽，事實上，我來到文化部之後是希望人權館能開始推出大型的人權電影，也包含委員剛剛提到的婦女性別人權，也就是人權不再限於只有白色恐怖的歷史紀錄。對於你剛剛的提問，我不敢立刻回答，因為我來的時候它已經開始動工了，所以我得了解它裡面的一些內容再回答你。"],["范委員雲：其實地點是不是在那裡，可能有很多要考慮的事情，我想今天就請部長承諾能夠開始研議，第一個，婦女與性別人權館的可能規劃；第二個，很明確的展出應該要含納各歷史時期推動爭取女性權益與性別平權的過程，這樣可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["范委員雲：部長，你覺得需要多少時間可以給我一份初步的報告呢？"],["李部長遠：大概3個月。"],["范委員雲：好，沒問題，3個月，好事需要多一點時間來琢磨，謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，請部長先回座。","現在開始處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案共計1案。","請宣讀。","台灣流行音樂過去有良好基礎，曾引領全亞洲；在獨立音樂上，亦有傑出創作量能；嘻哈音樂在近年也有令人矚目之發展，因此建請研議以下事項：","一、文策院對嘻哈等流行音樂產業，加強支持，如投資媒合促進。","二、文化部影視局應與文策院一同提升對流行音樂之輔導、補助，在創作、音樂相關IP、展演與國際傳播各方面予以支持，以拓展台流的國內與國外市場。","提案人：吳沛憶　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜"],["主席：請問提案委員及各位委員有沒有補充或要說明的意見？（無）好，沒有。部長，有沒有補充的意見？"],["李部長遠：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，沒有意見，照案通過。如果有委員要補簽提案，請議事人員詳細登載於議事錄。","接下來繼續進行質詢。","下一位請陳菁徽委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"155975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d636dfc5754a5a6aa082a5f3e270b9db71e66e8eac7fc2cd0ec55ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"11:55:19 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伯父還有我們王主委你看一下這個三立電視台他自爆喔剪掉的線已經養了7年"},{"start":144.338,"end":168.781,"text":"當然或許是這個記者啊至高提高身價但是部長確確實實他寫出來的還有進週刊寫出來的那個很奇怪啊你們都跟著他的腳步去走所以這個偵查不公開是真的是一個諷刺啊"},{"start":169.602,"end":186.315,"text":"在一個老百姓來講我們當民意代表的人必須要把下情上達讓翁主委、讓鄭部長你了解什麼叫做偵查不公開現在老百姓是不相信的耶不定"},{"start":187.336,"end":208.51,"text":"林國成你一世英名在司法界是多少有一點名氣可是在你主政的法務部底下的檢察官在這裡我說前功盡棄沒中不要為了要做官啦柯文哲的案子我們將心比心到底有沒有大公開"},{"start":209.861,"end":217.367,"text":"老百姓是認為真的是大公開的部長你撿到這個30秒給你你有什麼看法這個是外界對我們辦人團隊的一個誤解啦這個我再強調啦那這部分這個媒體的這個有北警有給他約談了"},{"start":233.078,"end":235.799,"text":"有就有 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2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭"},{"start":365.188,"end":382.455,"text":"被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後"},{"start":389.653,"end":412.009,"text":"那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼"},{"start":413.05,"end":436.521,"text":"那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊"},{"start":437.441,"end":441.967,"text":"最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊"},{"start":450.374,"end":469.439,"text":"還是在繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決"},{"start":470.68,"end":489.326,"text":"那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎"},{"start":493.314,"end":519.108,"text":"我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題"},{"start":520.729,"end":547.401,"text":"牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛"},{"start":551.024,"end":551.425,"text":"交通部的"},{"start":555.714,"end":582.936,"text":"那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project 2049大家都在關心這一件事情"},{"start":584.963,"end":598.91,"text":"中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕"},{"start":600.083,"end":626.03,"text":"要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個"},{"start":628.939,"end":649.745,"text":"繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容"},{"start":652.962,"end":669.035,"text":"這邊向委員報告那我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認"},{"start":680.285,"end":701.895,"text":"我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊"},{"start":703.041,"end":729.834,"text":"行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個 你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦"},{"start":732.028,"end":751.158,"text":"招牌一樣啊 人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦"},{"start":752.691,"end":774.36,"text":"這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛"},{"start":778.137,"end":788.085,"text":"你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下"},{"start":806.997,"end":807.198,"text":"需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」"},{"start":810.485,"end":837.413,"text":"報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛"},{"start":838.653,"end":854.159,"text":"這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核"},{"start":868.32,"end":887.448,"text":"不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己沒藥沒金不要只給我書面報告"},{"start":895.97,"end":923.147,"text":"公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講"},{"start":925.339,"end":946.735,"text":"但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車"},{"start":949.505,"end":960.271,"text":"再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎"},{"start":969.228,"end":989.499,"text":"因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝"},{"start":991.923,"end":996.313,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時45分）謝謝主席。是不是麻煩有請國防部的顧部長？"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：然後請交通部跟經濟部的代表，如果可以的話，就一起上來協助。請經濟部跟交通部的同仁，可以的話，上來一起協助。經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在，是不是？我說經濟部跟交通部，如果有同仁在的話，上來協助部長。","各位好，時間的關係，不一一問候。中國對於臺灣的威脅，以及所謂的grey zone strategy，最近幾年來，受到了不僅僅是臺灣，還包含國際社會關心臺灣國家安全的，都很關注，一直到今年，CSIS還是一直示警，說中國主要的target的是高雄港。我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題，那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候，因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄地入侵我們的高雄港，其中有兩個重要的target，一個是第六貨櫃中心，一個是65號跟66號碼頭。第六貨櫃中心控制的高明碼頭公司，裡面有一個大股東叫做政龍投資公司，政龍投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院，這件事情應該大家都有掌握吧？部長如果不清楚，請經濟部的同仁回答沒關係。"],["顧部長立雄：我在國安會的時候，對這個事情有一些瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：是。那這個政龍投資公司，它的母公司應該是中共的國務院，我應該沒有理解錯誤吧？這個是我當初整理的資料，這一次準備這個質詢的時候，我把2018年追蹤的歷程到今天我完整地再把它回顧了一次，有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現，但是這件事情應該沒有錯。第一個，可能比較關鍵的問題就是，一個控制我們的第六碼頭的公司，高明碼頭股份有限公司，竟然有一個大股東，它如果只是當股東，危害相對輕，可是它派了三席董事，它派了三席董事，它派了三席董事，然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司，部長，你覺得適合嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這部分我在國安會的時候，我們有去瞭解，就是說，它的資安的部分，應該有去瞭解。另外，好像是它租用跟這個碼頭的一個相關的措施……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我跟你澄清一下，分兩個部分，你剛剛說的租用的那個相關的規範，那個是65號和66號碼頭的，現在我先跟你處理的，就是有關於高明碼頭公司的部分，就是第六貨櫃中心。第一個，我可能要拜託大家注意一下，因為這個已經引起了國際社會的關注，特別是我們的盟友，包括日本，包括美國，大家都很關注，因為這個事情不是今天才發生，我為什麼這樣子講？就是剛剛部長所講的，65號、66號碼頭，我2018年質疑的時候，那時候經濟部回我說租賃港口不是投資行為，是租賃行為，而不是投資行為，所以投審會不會去管這件事情，但問題是說，在司法上的關係到底是租，還是其他的方式？我們在意的事情是什麼？我們在意的事情是，碼頭是不是被人家控制了？即使是租的，它也有管理使用權，那這樣是不是一個適合的行為？當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字，說這是租賃行為，這不是投資行為，所以他們管不到。這樣的說法，我老實講，大家沒有辦法接受，從國家安全的角度來講，這樣的說法，簡直是在開玩笑。","當2021年的時候，美國智庫「Project 2049」，我相信部長很熟悉，非常有名，現在它又再度示警，說中國的國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭；2022年法國的一個週刊，一樣用封面故事，又繼續關注我們的高雄碼頭被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題。從2018年我們在立法院質詢，可能那個時候我們人微言輕，沒有引發太多的關注，經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼，結果等到2021年、2022年，從美國到法國，大家都在關切這個問題了以後，那個時候就像部長說的，你在擔任國安會秘書長的時候，你說都有完全掌握，有詳細的規劃，會有相關的處理。你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳椒華委員的時候，說會有相關的處理，所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼。那個時候經濟部在回應時終於承認，當初在2018年的時候，我們在講的事情是真的，終於承認了，拖了四年以後，終於承認，說有陸資的背景。說到2024年9月底的時候，契約期滿不會再續約。這個是2022年說的，但問題是什麼？但問題是我一直追，追到今年，今年已經2024年，因為當初2022年開的條件是到2024年就不會再續約了，結果我發現到2024年的時候，還是在繼續續約，還是在繼續續約，那這個時候，港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點，2022年承認說有陸資的背景，結果到2024年發現，我又覺得很奇怪，當初我們示警，請行政部門重視，也說要解決，說到了今年9月不會再續約，結果我發現今年9月還是繼續續約下去，這是怎麼回事啊？部長，你有掌握嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我現在在國防部，所以這個……"],["黃委員國昌：經濟部有掌握嗎？"],["胡司長文中：跟委員報告，不好意思，因為這不是我的業管業務。"],["黃委員國昌：交通部有掌握嗎？"],["張司長垂龍：報告委員，我們在例行性的查核，都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港務公司，就租借地上所有經營單位，包括所有自動化吊車這些系統，做必要的瞭解。至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年的原點，因為今天我們沒有足夠的……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，就是我今天想要質詢的主題，牽涉到解放軍未來透過「灰色地帶」、「蟒蛇戰略」對臺灣封鎖的國安危機，絕對是今天質詢的主題，那部長可能有部長的權責，經濟部的也好，交通部的也好，特別是我拜讀了交通部所提出來的今天的報告，這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛！高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施，定義上應該沒有問題嘛？交通部的？"],["張司長垂龍：是，報告委員，是一級關鍵設施。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情，外國的媒體寫成這個樣子，我持續地在追蹤，結果在你們今天的報告裡，一個字都沒寫，既然一個字都沒寫，我就大膽地預測，可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題，但我覺得這是很重要的問題，也不是只有我1個人覺得這是一個很重要的問題，從CSIS到Project 2049，大家都在關心這一件事情，中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港，甚至要控制裡面的碼頭，這絕對是國家安全等級的事情，部會彼此之間橫向的聯繫，我覺得恐怕要再加強，如果沒有加強的話，負責處理國家安全的相關機構跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候，可能會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦。是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我，這一件事情為什麼本來說不租了，現在又繼續租？第二個，繼續租下去，是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題？還是外國人他們窮緊張？我們外國的盟友很重視，我們自己不當一回事。這件事情很重要，是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答復我今天質詢的內容？"],["張司長垂龍：向委員報告，我們很清楚地向委員報告，目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營，特別是在股權方面，陽明海運仍然是第一大股東，持股47.5%。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，現在就分兩個層次嘛﹗你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容，陽明海運是第一大股東，這個我不否認，我現在的問題是說，中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事，你們覺得有沒有關係？我覺得有關係啦！我覺得有關係啊！所以促請你們注意。如果行政部門覺得沒有關係，就大聲勇敢地出來告訴全體國人，行政部門覺得，這一個貨櫃中心的公司，裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的，你們覺得沒有關係，就大聲勇敢地講，我的立場是覺得有關係，我就是認為有關係，才要你們處理嘛﹗","第二個，你說65號、66號碼頭現在已經完全換成臺灣人經營的公司，我今天點出來就是要點你們這個，招牌一樣，人一樣。我再講一次，招牌一樣，營業場所一樣，營業的人都同一套，用一個臺灣公司換一個招牌，你們就被晃點過去喔？這樣老共要滲透臺灣的碼頭太容易了。這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題。我再講一次，招牌一樣，人一樣，營業據點一樣，換一個臺灣公司的名稱，你們就被晃點過去了。來，看一下，上面的董事長，看起來好像都是臺灣人，跟臺灣東方海外股份有限公司後面根本是什麼？根本是同一套人嘛。你如果有一點政治敏感度，再往前追，再往前追是什麼？當初陳雲林來臺灣的時候，就是這一群人在搞的啊！當初陳雲林來臺灣的時候，就是這一群人在搞的啊！這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔？經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下？需要嗎？還是覺得沒有必要？"],["張司長垂龍：報告委員，交通部回去會就委員的垂詢，給詳細的書面資料。但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告，交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程，已經十足地要求我們的監理單位航港局及被行政授權的港務公司，就日常的監理業務及港務經營，對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是本來就要做的事嘛！這個是本來要做的事嘛！跟我今天質詢你的重點，背後已經有陸資的企業在控制這個碼頭，是兩回事嘛！如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話，我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛，中國國企來控制也沒問題啊。因為都有你剛剛所講的，你已經強化了碼頭的作業和查核，不管是什麼公司，那本來就是你們要做的嘛！即使是臺灣公司，也是你們要做的嘛。但大家在意的是什麼？在意的是背後的公司有陸資的成分的時候，對於臺灣來講，我再強調一次，我們的國際友人都看不下去，只有你們自己「無要無緊」。不要只給我書面報告，公開地跟臺灣社會說明，你們覺得沒有關係，都控制得了，控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係，租借了碼頭出去，表面上好像掛臺灣公司的名，背後都同一套人嘛。就當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人嘛！你們也覺得沒有關係，那就大聲勇敢地跟台灣社會講。但我為什麼提這個事情質詢？因為我覺得有關係，我覺得很重要，我覺得應該要處理，但我們沒有任何行政權力，立法委員站在這邊，只能夠善盡言責，當然講得難聽一點，從2018年到2024年，我比較深刻的感受是狗吠火車。再麻煩我們的交通部，再麻煩我們的經濟部，如果可以的話，是不是麻煩我們的國安部門，部長請國安體系的人一起進入瞭解，就像您當初當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣，這樣可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我現在不是國安會的，我瞭解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，政府要有橫向聯繫，這件事情國防部要重視，我這樣說，部長應該不會否認吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。所以我會請國安會來瞭解一下這些涉及到的國安議題。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員。請經濟部和交通部以書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室。然後部長請回。","接下來請張啓楷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"155973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63c81f66ccc80a6bed5d49a24f4c608aef66e8eac7fc2cd0ec9c42b40381f6ac9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:47:52 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楊瓊瓔發言再邀請部長部長請"},{"start":20.046,"end":41.029,"text":"部長我們繼續來討論新興毒品的案件那我想每一個委員大家都非常的關心我希望接下來的詢答可以聽到你有些什麼方案那電子煙呢這個載具的部分也成為是毒品吸食的這個工具"},{"start":41.75,"end":69.026,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下我們也看到一個數字讓我們很緊張也就是相關的毒價事故是它是接連的發生所以從1月份到9月份中央跟地方衛生局依照這個防治法它採訪了639件違規的電子煙的案件那麼其中7月到9月就有294件"},{"start":70.487,"end":91.794,"text":"那相較於我們在看刑事的部分刑事局的這個統計數字7月份跟9月份他所查獲到的喪屍煙彈的這個部分違規的就有681件所以換句話說我們所查到的跟刑事局所查到的差距2.3倍"},{"start":93.114,"end":120.06,"text":"楊瓊瓔議員"},{"start":120.2,"end":123.222,"text":"新興毒品檢驗之外還有相當龐大的資源貫注在成癮治療的部分還有社區復歸的部分這也表示"},{"start":135.388,"end":163.351,"text":"政府的確看到目前社會這個問題是非常的嚴峻所以才會投資這樣龐大的一個資源所以我們看到新興毒品的普及以及你們的管控根本沒有辦法管控危害到整個公共的這個安全所以我要請教部長什麼原因讓你們無法有效的去遏止這些致命產品的一個"},{"start":164.273,"end":165.708,"text":"一個擴散請教部長"},{"start":166.564,"end":194.038,"text":"好 謝謝委員那我想毒品的防治需跨部會的合作還有地方中央的一個協力像在毒我們如果以衛福部來講當然就是用煙害防治法在中央跟地方衛生局去做可是本席已經告訴你你煙害防治法你到目前為止你的數量你光光查緝到的就是低於人家已經高於你的兩倍多那怎麼辦呢因為我們查的量的量其實是23萬"},{"start":196.059,"end":205.626,"text":"市長你這麼回答本席可以給你一個註解也就是政府在整個橫向的一個聯繫根本沒有聯繫各做各的各推一把號所以難怪我們到目前為止公共安全還是得不到安全"},{"start":226.499,"end":253.31,"text":"對當然當然如果說結論結果不是很理想我們一定要改善好部長你就這個改善所以我說我聽了一個早上我聽不到你們的方案我聽不到方案我給你註解橫向的聯繫沒有辦法聯繫那麼我們的結果論是人民是不安的而且他數量是在增加的你有什麼方案你有什麼方案你可以答覆我嗎你有什麼方案可以去精進"},{"start":255.173,"end":277.598,"text":"跟委員報告我是國民健康署我想在整個跨部會橫向連結上面在溯源跟警政署合作各位有一個報告我們其實跟警政這邊在去年到今年我們大概有1130次的一起聯訪我再舉你請停止你的發言請部長部長我給你功課"},{"start":280.299,"end":287.169,"text":"你們現在從早上到現在所答覆的都是目前你怎麼做本期已經告訴你答案越來越嚴重"},{"start":289.244,"end":310.232,"text":"父母不安心阿公阿嬤不安心校園也不安心這怎麼辦如果你們的答詢還是一樣這我現在做什麼我已經告訴你本期告訴你結果論我給你功課好不好你去橫向聯繫你去找出精進方案好不好你多久時間可以告訴我一個方案一個月"},{"start":310.612,"end":338.066,"text":"好一個月你們去精進怎麼樣查緝怎麼樣防止好不好讓大家能夠安心毒品的問題讓社會非常的不安一個月內請拿出方向那繼續本期要跟你討論的也就是我們發生了高雄醫大輻射綜合醫院因為檢驗毒品的誤判在這樣的情況我們就好好去討論你整個的過程到底是哪裡出了問題"},{"start":340.949,"end":355.849,"text":"我們看到新興毒品層出不窮的出現三個月到一年的驗毒管理的空窗期這個非常嚴肅的議題因此你行政院依照你"},{"start":356.59,"end":383.576,"text":"毒品危害防治條例的每3個月公告調整每3個月公告調整那麼增減毒品的分級品項機制雖然你可以提升你整個檢驗品質但是部長你這條流程是怎麼如此嗎部長部長是你很注意在看我的資料毒品的整個流程要怎麼樣去判定要多久時間請問"},{"start":386.021,"end":404.475,"text":"要多久時間?毒品的判定,毒品有很多種。毒品的判定你講不出來,我跟你講啦!所以難怪你要做功課,去找出精進方案。本期告訴你,公文文件審查21天,書面審查56日,實地評鑑約要6個月。"},{"start":412.188,"end":435.215,"text":"缺失改善報告及書面扶貧45天一個半月45天完成後提交審議小組審議請教部長新興毒品它是千變萬化訊息萬變快速變化如果依照目前本席告訴你你們現在所做的流程你應對的來嗎你應對的來嗎請教部長"},{"start":440.164,"end":465.256,"text":"我想我們會去檢討現在目前的流程是否足夠應付現在的需求如果不夠當然是要全力加速所以本席具體建議你誠意的提出說出你們必須要滾動式的去檢討煙毒流程及管理的機制那麼同時空窗期的風險你們要怎麼樣管控"},{"start":466.356,"end":485.576,"text":"剛剛本席所念的那些流程你絕對應變不了現在的新興毒品的一個迅速發展對不對你平民說是你趕快去檢討好不好這個讓我們很憂心政府如果沒有機制我們該當要怎麼辦人民只有受苦"},{"start":487.005,"end":488.366,"text":"政府非常重視這個議題會全力以赴我們一個月好了"},{"start":504.15,"end":508.295,"text":"煙毒流程管理機制空窗期一個月內將你的精準方案提交出來好不好讓社會大眾去了解才不會那麼恐怖好不好那接下來最後一個議題虐童的事件"},{"start":523.837,"end":531.244,"text":"大家非常的關心我們108年到112年我們的兒童受虐的人口從11113人增加到12646人換句話說每週每一個禮拜部長一禮拜都有兩個孩子來受虐這是心痛啊"},{"start":543.436,"end":567.65,"text":"不可以這樣嘛,不可以如此嘛,對不對?是不是啊?所以說虐的類型又以身心的虐待這個是終身有的是沒有辦法去抹掉耶,這太可憐了所以在這樣子包括不當的這個管教所以因此目前我們在兒童保護體系裡頭面臨的這麼多的挑戰包括我們社工人員"},{"start":568.49,"end":569.151,"text":"臺灣兒少保護的現況有沒有惡化的趨勢?"},{"start":584.729,"end":607.934,"text":"我們是一直在提強化的計畫有強化的計畫也就是你看到的問題是惡化嘛對不對你要勇於去面對問題你才有辦法去解決面對之嘛通報案件成長近三成了所以我們好恐怖喔通報案件近三成所以本席直接切入我們的目前的現況是惡化的對不對"},{"start":610.742,"end":614.623,"text":"我再給你一個數字每一位受虐孩童幸存的孩子他的終身照護成本"},{"start":630.009,"end":634.73,"text":"你已經看到這個問題,你要怎麼辦?面對虐兒的議題,我們的社會成本或許比這個636萬還要多"},{"start":655.26,"end":659.085,"text":"還要多 我們不忍心三成的一個增長"},{"start":660.492,"end":686.171,"text":"有少子化每一個都是我們的寶貝耶你看到已經三成累積這樣的成長一直惡化下去所以本身要請教我們實質的公權力要怎麼樣加入這個力道請教部長好我們為了強調強化兒少保護的三級預防我們現在引以兒童兒少的一個潛力法的一個修正"},{"start":686.811,"end":695.838,"text":"還有兒童托育服務方草案這個部分我相信我們參佐聯合國的一個權力的公約一定可以更加的做出什麼時候送出來?什麼時候送出來?這麼心痛的事情什麼時候可以送出來?我們會把時程跟盡快跟現在有沒有KPI的指標出來?你已經面對到了你已經告訴我三成我告訴你二話"},{"start":715.066,"end":743.131,"text":"你們什麼時候可以送出來?蛤?你告訴我時長好不好?我們這個...如果以法案的話...很難過...如果以法案的話我們會盡量...因為修法會更加周全...你什麼時候可以送出來?你沒有送出來我們怎麼...怎麼審?我們這個會期會送行政院因為這個的確是要好好的再找專家來...這個會期才要送"},{"start":744.366,"end":761.656,"text":"拜託你加速好不好拜託你加速好不好你已經看到三成的增加一直在惡化加速時間好嗎加速時間好不好趕快加速把經濟方案給本席好不好多久可以給本席"},{"start":763.598,"end":763.718,"text":"好 謝謝楊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1072,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時48分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。再邀請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們繼續來討論新興毒品的案件。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我想每一個委員大家都非常的關心，我希望接下來的詢答可以聽到你有些什麼方案。電子煙載具的部分也成為毒品吸食的工具，在這樣一個情況之下，我們也看到一個數字讓我們很緊張，那就是相關的毒駕事故接連發生。所以從1月份到9月份，中央跟地方衛生局依照菸害防制法裁罰了639件違規電子煙案件，其中7月到9月就有294件。相較於刑事的部分，我們再看刑事局的統計數字，7月份跟9月份所查獲到的喪屍煙彈這個部分，違規的就有681件；所以換句話說，我們所查到的跟刑事局所查到的差距是2.3倍。這個凸顯為什麼刑事局所查獲的是你的2.3倍？我真的不願意說你怠惰或者是失職，但是我希望你能夠拿出方案，因為政府推的新世代反毒策略行動綱領裡頭，它除了科技緝毒、新興毒品檢驗之外，還有相當龐大的資源灌注在成癮治療這個部分，還有社區復歸這個部分，這也表示政府的確看到目前社會這個問題非常嚴峻，所以才會投資這樣龐大的資源。我們看到新興毒品的普及，以及你們的管控根本沒有辦法管控，危害到整個公共安全，所以我要請教部長，什麼原因讓你們無法有效地去遏止這些致命產品的擴散？請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。我想毒品的防制需跨部會合作，還有地方、中央的協力，如果以衛福部來講，當然就是用菸害防制法在中央跟地方衛生局……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可是本席已經告訴你，菸害防制法到目前為止，光是查緝到的數量，人家已經高於你的兩倍多，那怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們查的量今年就有23萬，表示查的地點跟直接第一線警察機關馬上抓到的那個點，可能母群體是不一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你這麼回答，本席可以給你一個註解，也就是政府在整個橫向的聯繫根本沒有聯繫。"],["邱部長泰源：可能有相補，常規的還是要檢查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：各做各的、各吹一把號，所以難怪我們到目前為止，公共安全還是得不到安全。"],["邱部長泰源：當然如果結果不是很理想，我們一定要改善。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長，你就這個改善！所以我說我聽了一個早上，我聽不到你們的方案、我聽不到方案，我跟你註解：橫向的聯繫沒有辦法聯繫！那麼我們的結果論是人民是不安的！而且數量是在增加的，你有什麼方案？你有什麼方案？你可以答復我嗎？你有什麼方案可以去精進？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，我是國民健康署。我想在整個跨部會橫向連結上面，在溯源跟警政署合作上，我給委員一個報告，我們其實跟警政這邊，去年到今年我們大概有1,130次一起聯訪……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國健署，你請停止你的發言，請部長。","部長，我給你功課，你們從早上到現在所答復的都是目前你怎麼做，本席已經告訴你答案──越來越嚴重。父母不安心，阿公、阿嬤不安心，校園也不安心，這怎麼辦？如果你們的答詢還是一樣是我現在做什麼，本席已經告訴你結果論，我給你功課好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去橫向聯繫，你去找出精進方案，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你多久時間可以告訴我一個方案？"],["邱部長泰源：一個月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一個月你們去精進怎麼樣查緝、怎麼樣防止，好不好？讓大家能夠安心"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：毒品的問題讓社會非常的不安，一個月內請拿出方向。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：繼續本席要跟你討論的，也就是我們發生了高雄醫大附設中和醫院因為檢驗毒品誤判，這樣的情況我們就好好討論整個過程到底是哪裡出了問題？部長，我們看到新興毒品層出不窮的出現，三個月到一年的驗毒管理空窗期，這個是非常嚴肅的議題，因此行政院依照毒品危害防制條例的每三個月公告調整增減毒品的分級品項機制，雖然可以提升整個檢驗品質，但是部長你知道流程是如此嗎？部長，你很注意在看我的資料，毒品的整個流程要怎麼樣去判定？要多久時間？請問要多久時間？"],["邱部長泰源：毒品的判定，毒品有很多種……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：毒品的判定你講不出來，我跟你說啦！所以難怪你要做功課去找出精進方案。本席告訴你，公文文件審查21天，書面審查56日，實地評鑑約要6個月，缺失改善報告及書面複評45天（一個半月），完成後提交審議小組審議。請教部長，新興毒品它是千變萬化，瞬息萬變，快速變化，如果依照目前本席告訴你，你們現在所做的流程，你應對得來嗎？你應對得來嗎？請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們會去檢討目前的流程是不是足夠應付現在的需求，如果不夠，當然是要全力加速改善。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席具體建議，你誠意的說出你們必須要滾動式檢討驗毒流程及管理的機制。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：同時，空窗期的風險，你們要怎麼樣管控？剛剛本席所念的那些流程，你絕對應變不了現在新興毒品的迅速發展，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你頻頻說「是」，你趕快去檢討，好不好？這個讓我們很憂心，政府如果沒有機制，我們該當要怎麼辦？人民只有受苦！部長，你認為需不需要去滾動式的檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：政府非常重視這個議題，而且會全力來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還是一句全力以赴！請告訴我，你多久時間檢討出這樣的機制方案？"],["邱部長泰源：就是剛剛委員所講的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：驗毒流程、管理機制、空窗期，一個月內將你的精準方案提交出來，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：讓社會大眾去了解，才不會那麼恐怖，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，接下來最後一個議題，虐童的事件大家非常的關心，108年到112年我們的兒少受虐人口從1萬1,113人增加到1萬2,646人；換句話說，部長，每一個禮拜就有兩個孩子受虐，真是心痛啊！不能這樣嘛！不可以如此嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：受虐的類型又以身心的虐待，這個是終身的，有的是沒有辦法去抹掉，這太可憐了！包括不當管教，因此目前我們在兒童保護體系裡頭面臨了這麼多挑戰，包括我們社工人員的負荷這麼大，要怎麼樣去解決？所以請教部長，你認為臺灣兒少保護現況有沒有惡化的趨勢？有沒有？有沒有惡化的趨勢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一直在提強化的計畫。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有強化的計畫，也就是你看到的問題是惡化嘛，對不對？你要勇於去面對問題，你才有辦法解決面對之。"],["邱部長泰源：對，的確兒少保護通報案件成長近三成，所以我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好恐怖喔！通報案件近三成，所以本席直接切入，我們目前的現況是惡化的，對不對？近三成欸！"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們政府一定從初級、次級、三級預防全面來加強。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我再給你一個數字，每一位受虐倖存的孩子終身照護成本大概是636萬，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：相當於21萬美金，這個是全世界所統計出來的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也頻頻說「是」，你也是專家，你已經看到這個問題，你要怎麼辦？面對虐兒的議題，我們的社會成本或許比這個636萬還要多，我們不忍心看到三成的增長，又少子化！每一個都是我們的寶貝耶！你看到已經累積三成的成長，一直惡化下去，所以本席要請教，我們實質的公權力要怎麼樣加入這個力道？請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們為了強調強化兒少保護的三級預防，我們現在研擬兒少權益法修正，還有兒童托育服務法草案，這個部分我相信我們參酌聯合國權利公約，一定可以更加周全。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候送出來？三成耶！這麼心痛的事情，什麼時候可以送出來？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把時程儘快跟委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在有沒有KPI的指標出來？你已經面對到，你已經告訴我三成，我告訴你惡化，你們什麼時候可以送出來？你告訴我時程好不好？我們很緊張欸！很難過！"],["邱部長泰源：如果以法案的話，我們會儘量，因為修法會更加的周全，我們儘量在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你什麼時候可以送出來？你沒有送出來，我們怎麼審？"],["邱部長泰源：我們這個會期會送行政院，因為這的確是要好好再找專家來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個會期才要送，拜託你加速好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：拜託你加速好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：該做的工作、該做的行動方案都積極在做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你已經看到三成的增加，一直在惡化，加速時間好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加速時間好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：趕快加速把精進方案給本席，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久可以給本席？"],["邱部長泰源：建議的方案就跟剛剛講的，一個月就給。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一個月，將你們預計要怎麼做KPI內容給本席。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們也針對於你們修法……行政院也應該要重視你啊、重視這個問題啊！"],["邱部長泰源：行政院非常重視。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常重視，你就要加速啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：專案處理好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：保護我們的孩子嘛，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們一起來保護我們的孩子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","繼續我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"155972","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d634ae13aa89f21145dea3bc5a9eeba56a866e8eac7fc2cd0ec07c68077156111bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:47:29 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nd":9.274,"text":"有請部長吳委員你好"},{"start":36.992,"end":53.486,"text":"但是行政院寸土不浪所以有點卡在這裡不過這個我想跟我們無關啦凱撒的歸凱撒文化的歸文化好不好所以希望我們的文化政策推動"},{"start":55.167,"end":74.237,"text":"是超黨派的不要受到這些其實那個是一個政爭的影響部長我一直很尊敬你是一個文化人所以文化人有文化的理想文化的夢想所以呢我覺得還是本乎初心我們做好文化工作"},{"start":77.1,"end":89.136,"text":"我問部長一下因為上禮拜是國發會發布的最新的人口推估部長有看到那個資料嗎有看到所以台灣的人口危機"},{"start":90.598,"end":90.758,"text":"吳春城"},{"start":114.319,"end":138.826,"text":"這一個這是一個大環境整個大的那這個人口危機我標題叫文化當者部長你認同嗎認同你認同嗎所以呢其實這個是我們在做文化工作的以前的叫省舵天下大事引領時代風騷這就是一個文化人的一個"},{"start":141.006,"end":161.015,"text":"這個就是大家都可以看到我們這個臺灣人口少子化高齡化已經定型了這個過去花了很多的時間在政府推動少子化顯然是沒有發揮很大的效果我們的少子化今年到了0.87這個是這個更加的惡化"},{"start":167.267,"end":194.614,"text":"那從這個少子高齡化社會已經定型了不用再懷疑了所以我們要為這個未來的這個社會去重塑因為這個變化為什麼需要文化因為過去金字塔型的以這個兒童為主的那個社會已經變成到金字塔型的這個社會的變化太大了那需要文化的重塑觀念的重塑"},{"start":195.274,"end":208.24,"text":"所以這一點 這個沒有做好的話市場會萎縮 企業會倒閉 負稅加重 撫養加重 消費消退這是一個全面性的 這個是一個國家的危機 國安危機 這個部長認同吧"},{"start":210.761,"end":226.795,"text":"完全認同現在為什麼我一直在推壯時代因為解放就在這裡因為未來增加的是這一方面的人我們一定要往增加的人來找解放不是往減少的地方來找解放"},{"start":227.335,"end":240.33,"text":"是嗎?而且這裡掌握三分之財富所有的資源在這裡一定要把這裡龐大的我們視為無用的人把它激發出來這才是未來救國之道部長認同嗎?"},{"start":242.85,"end":243.01,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":257.805,"end":257.885,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":275.025,"end":301.452,"text":"這就是國外提出的警訊因為人口結構的明顯已經變成長期化了他要協同各部會來針對少子化勞動市場經濟產業財政收支社會環境這些議題都跟人口有問題那這個請問跟文化部的關係其實我在上個會期我就質詢過希望文化部把壯世代的文化"},{"start":302.913,"end":306.498,"text":"產業需求納入這個調查報告當中不曉得這個計畫進行如何"},{"start":313.951,"end":316.893,"text":"我不是要給你們邀請我是要跟你們同工一起把這事情做好"},{"start":344.621,"end":371.693,"text":"另外一個在勞動力上面因為這不是開玩笑的事情台灣的高齡者勞參率亞洲最低再來的話這個是國防會的推估報告當中其實現在45歲以上的勞參率已經成為主流已經高於45歲以下的但是我們的社會很多像104什麼聘用員工45歲以上都不聘用了你知道嗎"},{"start":372.987,"end":386.037,"text":"我們都認為這些都是高齡者是無用就是退化的人了我們企業很多但是他已經成為社會主力如果繼續在這樣的一個價值觀念未來是找不到勞工的"},{"start":387.674,"end":387.794,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":411.79,"end":434.531,"text":"普遍的企業是歧視高齡者政府帶頭其實解放就在文化部了上次我們有公聽會也很感謝徐宜君次長全程參與了4個小時然後也表達了對壯世代強調壯世代多元文化的參與還有對這個市場的重視"},{"start":437.932,"end":466.341,"text":"但是呢我們在做壯世代的文化調查各部會現在有13個部會加入壯世代文化部的回覆是預算是零那所以呢OK我現在沒有但我知道文化部是很清楚該怎麼做比如說性平性平的這樣子的當你要引導整個對性平的歧視的時候文化部就推出你看這麼多的作為"},{"start":467.782,"end":490.283,"text":"這麼多的作為所以我相信這個壯世代是一個高齡解放的文化運動它的本質就是高齡解放的文化運動那文化不要當這個時代的起手所以呢這個如果你想做我相信可以規劃出很多"},{"start":491.084,"end":492.705,"text":"我可以看得出來文化部還是把它當作一個邊緣的議題"},{"start":508.399,"end":508.499,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":526.934,"end":541.554,"text":"啊這個會很寬限的三個月針對這樣子的人口變化壯世代的真正的面對對我們的一個文化的政策可以提出這個方案來可以嗎部長三個月其實我們在許多"},{"start":542.835,"end":567.249,"text":"計劃也都跟這個有關只是沒有把委員講的中壯世代這個range把它變成是一個好像弱勢團體那我們可以整理出不是弱勢團體它是強壯的團體只是你們把它當弱勢團體我們的文化界把這些人當弱勢團體不是我說你因為你剛才講文化部是編的是零我覺得不是我們是把它分散在所有的那個活動裡但是呢我們把它整理出來給各位委員但是這是一個重點的議題"},{"start":568.79,"end":597.383,"text":"這是一個有策略性的議題因為問題的發生都在這裡解放也在這裡我們經常政府喜歡把它打散我是文化是全民性的你全民性交360度策略360度叫原地打轉策略就叫做沒有策略沒有想法想到什麼做什麼就叫全面性策略問題已經就是在這高齡者壯世代不是特殊族群他是高齡者讓我們去汙名化以後叫做壯世代"},{"start":598.123,"end":598.143,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時47分）有請部長。"],["主席：我們有請李部長。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。"],["李部長遠：吳委員你好。"],["吳委員春城：你辛苦了。剛剛沛憶委員提到預算的問題，其實韓院長針對總預算已經召開了5次的協商，還吃了和解飯，算是盡心盡力了，但是行政院寸土不讓，所以有點卡在這裡，不過這個跟我們無關，凱撒的歸凱撒，文化的歸文化，好不好？希望我們文化政策的推動是超黨派的，不要受到這一些影響，其實那是一個政爭的影響。","部長，我一直很尊敬你是一個文化人，文化人有文化人的理想、文化人的夢想，所以我覺得還是本於初心做好文化工作。","請問部長一下，上禮拜四國發會發布了最新的人口推估，部長有看到那個資料嗎？有看到！所以臺灣的人口危機非常的嚴重，我們的出生率、出生的總額提早了15年，少子化提早了15年，本來推估破10萬人是在2055年，這是上次2022年的推估，而這次的推估是提早到2040年，可見我們有人口危機，而這是一整個大環境所致，關於人口危機，我的標題是「文化當責」，部長你認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：認同。"],["吳委員春城：其實我們在做這種文化工作的，以前叫做審度天下大勢，引領時代風騷，這就是文化人的一個態度，大家都可以看到我們臺灣人口少子化、高齡化已經定型了，過去政府花了很多的時間減緩少子化現象，顯然是沒有發揮很大的效果，我們的少子化今年到了0.87，可說是更加的惡化，少子高齡化社會已經定型了，不用再懷疑了，所以我們要為未來的社會去重塑，而這個變化為什麼需要文化？因為過去社會以兒童為主的金字塔型已經變成倒金字塔型了，這個社會的變化太大了，需要文化的重塑、觀念的重塑，這個沒有做好的話，市場萎縮、企業倒閉、賦稅加重、扶養加重、消費消退，這是全面性的，這是一個國家的危機、國安危機，這個部長認同吧？"],["李部長遠：完全認同。"],["吳委員春城：好，OK。現在為什麼我一直在推壯世代，因為解方就在這裡，而且未來增加的是這一方面的人，我們一定要往增加的人來找解方，不是往減少的地方來找解方，是吧？而且這裡掌握三分之二的財富，所有的資源都在這裡，一定要把這個龐大的、我們視為無用的人，把他們激發出來，這才是未來救國之道，部長認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：認同，尤其是我們戰後世代的人非常多，人口非常集中在戰後世代，戰後世代現在差不多是六、七十歲，所以如果能夠透由……"],["吳委員春城：特別是部長有談到戰後嬰兒潮，這是文化界最有資源的地方……"],["李部長遠：而且人最多。"],["吳委員春城：我們所有的民主化運動、全球化運動、數位化運動等等，都是戰後嬰兒潮引導出來的。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員春城：這些人都邁向60歲了或是超過60歲了，也就構成現在的高齡者，我們應好好善用他們這個文化資產。OK，這是國發會提出的警訊，因為人口結構的明顯改變已經長期化了，它要協同各部會針對少子化、勞動市場、經濟產業、財政收支、社會環境等，因為這些議題都跟人口有關，在此請教這些跟文化部的關係，其實我在上個會期就質詢過，希望文化部把壯世代的文化產業需求納入調查報告當中，不曉得這個計畫進行得如何？"],["李部長遠：調查報告正在執行中，但是談到壯世代，我們文化部已經在做的事情非常的多。"],["吳委員春城：我知道你有列進去了，但也是一點點啦！"],["李部長遠：也不會啊！就是滿全面的。"],["吳委員春城：好，我希望你上次承諾的報告可以提供給我，好不好？包括全面的。我不是要給你們壓力，我是要跟你們同工，一起把這些做好，好不好？","另外，在勞動力上面，這不是開玩笑的事情，臺灣高齡者勞參率是亞洲最低。再來，在國發會的推估報告當中，其實現在45歲以上的勞參率已經成為主流，已經高於45歲以下的，但是我們的社會像104在聘用員工時，很多45歲以上的都不聘用，你知道嗎？他們認為這些都是高齡者，是無用的人、是退化的人，我們企業很多都這樣認為，但是它已經成為社會主力，如果繼續存在這樣的價值觀念，未來是找不到勞工的，這個對經濟會有影響，所以我也跟勞動部提到了，現在勞動部把45歲以上定義為中高齡、高齡，但45歲是什麼？開始是老人嗎？不勞待退嗎？他覺得這是一個文化問題，而且企業普遍歧視高齡者，甚至政府帶頭歧視，而解方就在文化部了。","上次我們有開過公聽會，也很感謝我們徐宜君次長全程參與了4個小時，然後也表達並強調對壯世代多元文化的參與，還有對這個市場的重視，但是就我們做的壯世代文化調查，現在有13個部會加入壯世代跨部會小組，但文化部的回復中，相關編列的預算是零，但我知道文化部是很清楚該怎麼做的，比如說性平，當你要引導對性平歧視消減的時候，文化部就推出了這麼多的作為，所以我也相信接下來壯世代是一個高齡解放的文化運動，它的本質就是高齡解放的文化運動，文化部要當這個時代的旗手，如果你想做，我相信文化部可以規劃出很多具體的作為，各種展場、各種工具，包括電影、音樂、藝術，都可以表達並引導這個文化，但是現在我可以看得出來，文化部還是把它當作一個邊緣的議題，把它擱在那邊，只做小小的一部分。我們剛才也看到了，人口已經天翻地覆，這已經成為主流，文化部要當主流文化，而不是當那種分期的次文化，只是參與者而已，應該要當一個領導者，所以可不可以要求文化部，我已經寬限了，在3個月內，針對這樣子的人口變化，真正的面對壯世代，對於我們的文化政策提出相關的方案，可以嗎？部長，3個月可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實我們許多計畫也都跟這個有關，只是沒有把委員講的中壯世代這個range變成好像是一個弱勢團體，但我們可以整理出……"],["吳委員春城：不是弱勢團體，它是強壯的團體，不應把它當弱勢團體啊！我們的文化界把這些人當弱勢團體？"],["李部長遠：不是，因為你剛才講文化部編的是零，我覺得不是，我們是把它分散在所有的活動裡面，我們會把它整理出來提供給委員。"],["吳委員春城：但是這是一個重點的議題，這是一個有策略性的議題，因為問題的發生都在這裡，解方也在這裡，我們政府經常喜歡把它打散，說這是文化、是全民性的，雖然全民性叫做三百六十度策略，但三百六十度策略就叫做原地打轉策略，就叫做沒有策略、沒有想法，想到什麼就做什麼就叫做全面性策略，問題已經在這高齡者，壯世代不是特殊族群，他是高齡者，我們去污名化以後叫做壯世代，是有這樣一個認知，所以不要把壯世代當作一個特殊族群，就是高齡社會來臨了，這個對文化部是重中之重，要拜託部長了，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，沒有問題。"],["吳委員春城：3個月內把這些計畫彙總好然後提出來，而且這個觀念是一個前瞻性的觀念，不是銀髮族，不是養老的、樂齡的那種簡單做一做的，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員春城：好的，謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員。","接下來我們有請范雲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"155971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63398e5df1141ff2b32a5f3e270b9db71e66e8eac7fc2cd0ec2ed63b081278be015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:36:47 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那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在這些專業委員前面搬弄是非 搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬稿民粹"},{"start":476.363,"end":505.102,"text":"然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討"},{"start":507.25,"end":521.814,"text":"然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法"},{"start":523.53,"end":544.509,"text":"雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊"},{"start":547.386,"end":570.048,"text":"你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面"},{"start":574.474,"end":594.274,"text":"所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容"},{"start":595.816,"end":597.157,"text":"最重要就是偵查不公開規範所能涵蓋的範圍對象這部分要明確"},{"start":620.955,"end":642.213,"text":"這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定"},{"start":643.939,"end":672.639,"text":"要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作業辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作業辦法可是你們偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是"},{"start":674.661,"end":690.094,"text":"有嗎 有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部 其實他有個概括條款啦概括的那個 但是解釋上可以 如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經積弊已久"},{"start":695.314,"end":719.999,"text":"這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個若違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊"},{"start":726.215,"end":736.976,"text":"這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎"},{"start":738.035,"end":760.274,"text":"跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲那個偵查不公開作業辦法就可以不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是第一位階的法規"},{"start":762.159,"end":762.319,"text":"委員會主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":975,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時37分）謝謝召委，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長您好。今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於偵查不公開的問題，我們知道偵查不公開的規定是訂在刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，就是涉及到整個司法人員都有義務要遵守在偵查程序當中不可以洩露相關的資訊、資料。另外，對於辯護人律師也有規定，不管是在刑事訴訟法第三十三條，還是在律師法第三十六條裡面都有相關的規定，對於在職務上面所知悉的秘密還有資訊，是不可以任意洩漏的。","可是這麼多年來，我們還是看到相關的問題時常發生。事實上，針對在偵查不公開裡面的偵查程序當中有可能會洩漏相關資訊或一些秘密的，大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的檢、警、調、書記官、律師和媒體這3個類型的人。剛剛其實也有諸多的委員，包括沈伯洋委員也有講到，除了這些人之外，還有中間人也是有可能會洩漏的，就是包含檢、警、調、書記官他們的長官，以及假設羈押庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官，都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務。","可是我們看到現行的法規裡面，偵查不公開的作業辦法裡面其實就這部分並沒有清楚的規定，並沒有把它訂得很清楚。所以也就是我們今天在討論的，就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面要規範的對象把它明定清楚。請問現在法務部有進一步的研析要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們有偵查不公開的實施方案，就是檢、調、廉遵守偵查不公開的一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：有包含所謂的中間人嗎？他的上級長官，然後層層的、甚至是傳遞文書的作業人員、公務員，有包含到你們規範的範圍嗎？現在有涵蓋到哪些類型？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個部分，現在在偵查不公開的修正說明，是有包括庭務員、法醫師、檢驗員、鑑定人、通譯、法警、司機、工友這些都有，就是有接觸到……"],["翁委員曉玲：有包含他們的長官嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡沒有包含長官……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這很重要！要包含他的上級長官，對不對？其實洩漏者很有可能不是基層的公務員，而是他的上級長官，這不無可能。","我們知道法務部自己也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分，先前也已有滿多委員提到。我們看你們的報告書就知道，你們從108年到112年檢討的件數有七千多件，實際上、真的有調查的是兩百多件，處分人數15人。如果從最近這半年來講的話，檢討也有兩千多件，但應調查件數76件，處分人數只有1位。而且所有處罰對象裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊！都是基層的檢察或調查局人員，我真的不相信，竟然沒有檢察官違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎？你們是不是在包庇你們自己的同仁？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想檢察官若洩漏自己偵辦的案件對自己的偵查是不利的。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是這有什麼不利呢？從這麼多歷史案件看起來，他就算洩漏了也不會被處罰，從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對檢察官而言，自己辦的案件自己洩漏出去是眾夫所指，大家會懷疑偵查圖利，所以我們是避之唯恐不及。至於委員指導所提到的，我們會在會後……"],["翁委員曉玲：我相信有一些檢察官是謹言慎行的，但也的確不乏、有滿多檢察官跟媒體……或者可能是他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去，不無可能！我只是要講一個事實：在這麼多案件裡面，竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分！這違反經驗法則，不太可能會有這樣的狀況嘛！是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個刻板印象。跟委員報告，事實上，會接觸的很多，而媒體關注的一定是有羈押的案件……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，部長，我知道，因為你剛剛說了，我也非常同意你的看法，會接觸到相關資訊的人很多，所以你們對於偵查不公開的相關規定就要修，可能涉及到的相關人士都要納入規範啊！何況也沒有相關行政處罰的規定，所以違反之後呢？頂多就是基層人員受到懲戒等處分，但你們自己的檢察官還有法官也有可能啊！","然後，司法院有修規定嗎？刑事訴訟法是你們主責的法律，這個問題存在這麼久，為什麼司法院從來沒有說要修法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為有羈押跟提審，我們有報院並函司法院，就是裁定是否要公開……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我知道。其實關於這個問題，也就是偵查不公開相關規定的議題，大家當然會針對你們法務部，但我覺得司法院失職。這麼多年來，為什麼不好好地把相關規定修好？在今天，剛剛吳思瑤委員還說是誰摧毀司法公信力？我不客氣地講，我覺得其實就是司法人員──你們自己踐踏自己的專業司法公信力啊！老百姓的眼睛是雪亮的，誰能夠建立起公信力、誰能夠讓他信賴，大家都很清楚。今天在司法及法制委員會裡，委員們在討論相關法律要怎麼修法，大家都很盡心盡力啊！除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在一些專業委員前面搬弄是非、班門弄斧，講那些似是而非的言論。那些委員真的是說不過專業的委員就盡搞民粹、搞動員，他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇！像吳思瑤委員、柯建銘委員等等，都是類似這種情形，沒有法律專業，卻常常在我們這些法律專業委員面前說三道四、誤解法律，這是非常糟糕的一件事。","針對「誰摧毀司法公信力？」這個問題，我想不是只有法務部你們自己要檢討，司法院也要檢討。尤其法務部現在又主管律師法，律師也有可能在過程當中洩密，所以你們有沒有考慮修正律師法？雖然我有看到全國律師聯合會現在也開了研討會，也已經提出律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範，可是本席希望這樣的指引規範能夠提供法位階、未來要法制化，這才有嚇阻力啊！你們──就是法務部跟司法院都有提立法計畫，我也都有仔細地看、仔細地拜讀到底在你們腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼。而我覺得很遺憾，都沒有跟我們的社會接軌，我們的民眾關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面。就這個部分，是不是請部長處理，你們可以去研析？刑事訴訟法不是你們管的法規，但律師法的部分是不是也要一起討論？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，我們再來研究。不過以現在的情況跟委員報告，律師在偵查中揭露偵查內容是否構成洩密罪事實上也有相關法令，包括個人資料保護法等相關法律可以遵循。"],["翁委員曉玲：除了構成犯罪之外，在律師法裡的相關懲戒、行政處罰等等，我覺得也都要整體、一起討論嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後如我剛剛講的，最重要的就是偵查不公開規範所能夠涵蓋的範圍、對象，這個部分要明確。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，這部分我們再來檢視律師法等相關規範、通盤考量，看看要怎麼檢討。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，要跟司法院一起。同時，也要司法院……今天司法院有副秘書長列席，也請副秘書長承諾，你們接下來的立法計畫就是要修刑事訴訟法的相關規定，對於直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序當中可能資料、秘密的人全部都要一起規範。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：關於這部分，在偵查不公開作業辦法母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細，但是應該也屬於偵查不公開作業辦法第五條……"],["翁委員曉玲：可是偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己的法官啊！有嗎？有規範到法官嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們會會同法務部……其實有個概括條款，解釋上可以，但如果要具體化的話，我們會會同法務部就這部分來具體化。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂定比較低位階的作業辦法，刑事訴訟法就要修啊！這個問題積弊已久，這麼多年來大家不斷地講，為什麼司法院不修法？你可以參考其他國家很多法律規定，要提升到法位階、直接修刑事訴訟法，這樣才有嚇阻力嘛！對不對？然後也可以再訂定一套相關的行政處罰，處理違反的情況，因為有時候要構成犯罪可能比較難，但是違反相關義務的規定可以予以行政處罰、科處罰鍰，也不是不可以啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，這部分我們會再作相關研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望你們列入下年度的立法計畫。可以承諾我，你們在下個會期就會提出相關修法案嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這部分可能要再徵詢各方意見，研究現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好，因為今天……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們的速度太慢了啦！你們現在不修，我們立法委員就提案來修啊！但修了之後，你們又不滿意，到時候可能去聲請釋憲。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：其實偵查不公開作業辦法就可以……"],["翁委員曉玲：不要說作業辦法！作業辦法就是個低位階的法規！作業辦法要修，但是刑事訴訟法也是要修。","我想我就講到這邊，希望你們兩個機關可以在下個會期、應該是2月之前能夠提出律師法還有刑事訴訟法的修法草案到本院來，謝謝。"],["主席：那我們就依據先前宣告休息5分鐘；5分鐘後由林國成委員進行詢答。謝謝。","休息（11時49分）","繼續開會（11時55分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","先處理會議時間：上午會議持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","現在請林國成委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},{"id":"155970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155970","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d634bef1c3e3c69d494d7b602dab1c650f9e99cfeeb60987bc279e30822738802ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔"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其實我蠻用功的 我帶領我們整個部會一直在討論那個內容我試著自己也寫了一點 因為我丟出一個蠻難的題目就是要把整個文化部的不同師整合在一起所以剛開始有點混亂 最後大家終於集合出來這個結果"},{"start":238.199,"end":263.296,"text":"這個十二項沃土計畫我們團隊一起一字一句的看我們都感到相當的感動因為我們看到一個是整體的要來去構思文化台灣的一個願景它包含的面向當然非常多我就先舉前面幾個例子例如說第一個向下扎根也就是我們要給下一代更好的藝文土壤我們要打造文化基地你們的目標是台灣至少先列100個文化基地具有經濟及文化觀光潛力的你們要發展影視產業"},{"start":268.079,"end":272.002,"text":"流行音樂被單獨列為一個項目我覺得非常的好包括出版表演藝術動漫文資等等的我首先想要請教部長的是因為我們星期一才到國影中心考察看到我們是非常認真專業的在修復我們的這些老影像搶救保存那我看到那個介紹影片其中一段就逗賞這個電影對我來講因為這是我爸爸第一次帶我進電影院看的電影"},{"start":295.856,"end":311.586,"text":"所以看到台詞出來一兩句我就非常我有一個記憶就馬上湧上心頭所以我想老電影的修復他其實是可以帶起一代人的集體共同的回憶非常的重要那我們現在呢電影的發展過去"},{"start":312.987,"end":330.476,"text":"西門町是我們台灣電影史上非常重要的一個街區包括很多的老戲院我自己認識的很多是到二代三代現在接手雖然經營的非常辛苦電影院但是還在努力當中包括我們中影公司最早也是在西門町西門町我"},{"start":331.176,"end":358.017,"text":"強烈認為他非常適合納入我們100個文化基地之一然後未來呢包括我們的這個金馬獎我們有金馬電影大師課嘛他去年北野武士之遇和都來台灣這些課程是不是有機會來辦到西門町的電影街像我們的這個我自己以前常常大學時候在看的女影北影啊然後我看我聽過一個泰國的影展人電視電影人他講說他以前年輕的時候在台灣學中文他每天就是窩在西門町看電影"},{"start":359.238,"end":369.171,"text":"但現在以全商業來說稍微沒落是不是電影街開來納入你的100個文化基地之一然後我們好好的把整合各項電影相關的資源讓這裡成為下一個培育電影人才的一個場所部長你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":376.4,"end":403.399,"text":"我完全同意委員的講法我自己在萬華長大然後我在中影工作8年就是在新門町所以我對新門町非常熟悉我記得我們當年第一次辦臺北電影節1998年的時候就把整個新門町布置起來成為一個臺灣的電影基地所以未來我們絕對會是以新門町那邊作為一個臺灣最早的瞭解臺灣電影歷史的一個基地這沒問題"},{"start":405.082,"end":426.037,"text":"這個非常重要那有需要跟地方政府地方的在地的團體協調部分我們非常樂意來幫忙那中央跟地方要合作除了這個基地還有一項也要提醒部長就是我們的影視協拍因為你有提到嘛我們現在中央也要來成立跨部會的然後中央及地方的影視協拍過去我在市議會所以台北市有一個英文會來常常當單一的窗口來協助我們今天拍電影那我們未來我們是怎麼規劃我們中央也會有一個單一窗口嗎"},{"start":437.236,"end":459.953,"text":"我們就是其實我們有一個一個協派單位可是我們影視局本身就接受大家來申請我們本身影視局本身這個單位所以你的中央跨部會整合未來會由文化部影視局來當單一窗口我們要拍電影就不用說例如說教育場地我要去問教育部那經濟部有相關的商圈我要去問經濟部未來是不是由文化部來做統一窗口"},{"start":460.333,"end":486.124,"text":"其實其實一直是包括拍片的片場我跟委員報告我最近最積極的就是找來11個已經拿到我們輔導金的那個聚集的就是問他們說需要什麼幫忙包括要不要我們幫你借東西借場地要不要片場再增加錢做片場所以這點我想委員保證我們影視局的工作量很大但是也包括協拍這一塊"},{"start":486.744,"end":509.77,"text":"沒錯太好了我們覺得單一窗口真的很重要因為我們民意代表辦公室我自己常常就是在擔任單一窗口因為很多涉及中央跟地方的然後你又要借路權然後你又要比如說這個停的機車要移動等等要貼公告很多有的是警察局有的是公務局有的是文化局各種單位所以未來我希望中央跟地方我們可以更密切的來合作"},{"start":510.45,"end":532.96,"text":"接下來呢因為我非常的關注我們12項沃土計畫裡面的文化基地除了剛剛講到的青門町做電影文化基地之外我也想要請跟部長建議兩個我覺得台北市非常重要的基地因為台北是台灣的首都我們又有全台灣最多的文資古蹟而且呢我覺得台北絕對要做為我們台灣國際化城市的一個窗口"},{"start":533.8,"end":541.652,"text":"那我認為我們城中區呢很適合來打造成博物館文化基地也就結合你12項沃土計劃當中的要來去結合博物館藝文場館像城中區部長跟你分享我們有局員百貨"},{"start":549.944,"end":576.696,"text":"是比台南的林百貨還要早一天開幕所以是全台灣目前最早的百貨公司在日本時代成立的最近正要開始來進行文字的修復所以未來也需要文化部大力的幫忙再來我認為晨曦以蒙賈為基地也非常適合作為一個文化的基地其中像我們報導過後紀錄俠部長你一定比我更清楚紀錄俠首次的演出就是在蒙賈的河岸"},{"start":577.236,"end":579.52,"text":"那時候還是露天歌廳就是在我們現在長沙街環南路口那個水門部長你的看法呢我們這些地方以是不是就是未來你們要打造文化基地來去評估的一些這個潛力的據點"},{"start":590.407,"end":619.569,"text":"沒有錯比如說整個西門町如果你要看那個漫畫這個地方他也有茶的文化他也有博物館的文化像我們講中央電影公司以前是日治時代第一個看電影的地方所以等等萬華本身的涵蓋的那個文化面非常多所以謝謝你的建議其實我當初會要做文化基地也就是因為長期以來我們也累積了蠻多社區再造地方創生等等還有就博物館升級"},{"start":620.629,"end":645.098,"text":"這點我們會請各方來推薦我們最後我們會把它選出來好謝謝部長因為我看到你們講文化基地很重要是它也同樣要具有經濟跟觀光的潛力那我剛提到這幾個都是現在臺北市國際觀光客造訪的前十大景點之一所以我認為非常的合適那也希望未來我後續來持續跟你們討論有必要我們就請到現場來會談趕快來把它打造起來好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":736,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。剛剛前面很多的委員關心演唱會經濟，尤其是很多在野黨委員相當地關心，不管是關心什麼樣的文化議題，最要關心的其實是我們的文化預算，因為沒有預算，什麼事都無法做，我自己在這一屆競選立法委員選舉公報上面的其中一項政見，就是文化預算要逐年提升。過去幾年我很樂見我們文化預算確實有逐年提升，但我都認為還不夠。這一次我看到文化部編的預算，是中華民國史上首次突破300億，是我們史上最高的文化預算，所以我的心情是相當相當地振奮。","按照比例來計算，比去年預算成長超過10%，將近12%，這也顯示我們現在的政府對文化以及表演相關產業等等的重視。我覺得最遺憾的是，現在這一份史上最高的文化預算提出來了，但目前在野黨還在阻擋，到現在這一份預算還沒辦法送進委員會裡面，甚至院會都送不進來審查。我們今天在委員會裡面討論了非常多跟文化有關的計畫，我希望大家要有一個共識，我們要有預算審查，好好來討論，都可以有不同的意見，但至少要讓我們這一份文化預算有被審查的機會。尤其是剛剛這麼多的在野黨委員，葛如鈞、羅廷瑋等我的好同事們，還有葉元之委員，也都一直在關心演唱會經濟，演唱會經濟不就是影視音產業中很重要的一部分嗎？部長，我幫你看了一下預算，這個超過300億的預算裡面，新興預算大概是多少？"],["李部長遠：新興預算的部分，我沒有加總過。"],["吳委員沛憶：新興的預算，我幫你算了一下，大約是53億，也就是說，今年文化部的預算有六分之一都叫做新興預算，在預算審查的概念上，如果立法院沒有通過，如果在野黨還在擋的話，部長，新興預算計畫一個都不能動支，這不是年度預算喔！","所以這個新興預算很重要，裡面像影視音產業續航發展計畫14.99億，這是新興預算；地方藝文場館、博物館與地方文化館深耕計畫5.85億，這是新興預算；國家漫畫營運推展0.5億，這是新興預算，以上等等的計畫，今年送進來的預算中，有六分之一都叫做新興預算。現在有國會頻道，國人大家都在看，不是只有立法委員重視，所以我們希望文化部今年首次提出史上最高的文化預算，可以趕快送進立法院裡面，大家一起來好好討論。","部長，你的業務報告我認真看了，12項沃土計畫，關於這份報告，我想請教，有一些部分是不是你親自撰寫的？"],["李部長遠：是的，其實我滿用功，我帶領我們整個部會一直在討論那個內容，我自己也試著寫了一點，因為我丟出一個滿難的題目，就是要把整個文化部不同的司整合在一起，剛開始有點混亂，但最後大家終於集合出這個結果。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個12項沃土計畫，我們團隊一起一字一句的看，我們都感到相當的感動，因為我們看到的是整體要去構思文化臺灣的一個願景，它包含的面向當然非常多，我就先舉前面幾個例子，第一個，向下扎根，也就是要給下一代更好的藝文土壤，要打造文化基地，你們的目標是臺灣至少要先建立100個文化基地，具有經濟及文化觀光潛力的要發展影視產業；流行音樂被單獨列為一個項目，我覺得都非常的好，然後還包括了出版、表演藝術、動漫、文資等等。","我首先想要請教部長的是，因為我們星期一才到國影中心考察，看到他們真的非常認真、專業的修復還有搶救、保存這些老影像。我看到介紹影片的其中一段就是「多桑」這個電影，對我來講，因為這是我爸爸第一次帶我進電影院看的電影，所以我一看到臺詞出來一、兩句，我馬上就有一個記憶湧上心頭。所以我想老電影的修復其實可以帶起一代人集體、共同的回憶，非常的重要。","關於電影的發展，過去西門町是我們臺灣電影史上非常重要的一個街區，包括很多的老戲院，我自己認識很多是二代、三代現在在接手，雖然電影院經營得非常辛苦，但他們還在努力當中，包括中影公司最早也是設在西門町，我強烈認為西門町非常適合納入我們100個文化基地之一，未來包括金馬獎，因為我們有金馬電影大師課，像去年北野武、是枝裕和都來到臺灣，這些課程是不是有機會辦在西門町的電影街？像我自己以前大學的時候常常在看的女影、北影；然後我聽過一個泰國影展的電影人說他以前年輕時來臺灣當學生，每天就是窩在西門町看電影。現在以純商業來說它是稍微沒落了，但是不是電影街可以納入100個文化基地之一，然後我們好好整合各項電影相關的資源，讓這裡成為下一個培育電影人才的場所？部長有什麼樣的想法？"],["李部長遠：我完全同意委員的講法，我自己是在萬華長大，然後我在中影工作8年就是在西門町，所以我對西門町非常熟悉。我記得我們當年第一次辦臺北電影節，1998年的時候就把整個西門町布置起來，成為臺灣的電影基地，所以未來我們絕對會是以西門町那邊作為臺灣最早的、了解臺灣電影歷史的一個基地，這沒問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個非常重要，有需要跟地方政府、地方在地團體協調的部分，我們非常樂意來幫忙。中央跟地方要合作，除了這個基地，還有一項也要提醒部長，就是影視協拍，因為你也有提到，現在中央也要成立跨部會的中央及地方的影視協拍。過去我在市議會，臺北市議會有一個影委會，常常做為單一的窗口來協助民間拍電影。未來是怎麼規劃？中央也會有一個單一窗口嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實我們有一個一個的協拍單位，可是我們影視局本身就接受大家來申請，我們影視局本身……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以你的中央跨部會整合，未來會由文化部影視局來當單一窗口？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：像拍電影的話，例如說需要教育場地，這時我要去問教育部；若去與經濟部有相關的商圈，這時我要去問經濟部，未來是不是由文化部來做統一窗口？"],["李部長遠：其實一直是如此，包括拍片的片場，跟委員報告，最近我最積極的就是找來11個已經拿到我們輔導金的劇集，問他們需要什麼幫忙，包括要不要我們幫你借東西、借場地、要不要再增加錢做片場等等，所以這一點我向委員保證，我們影視局的工作量很大，但是也包括協拍這一塊。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，太好了，我們覺得單一窗口真的很重要，像我們民意代表辦公室、我自己常常就是在擔任單一窗口，因為很多涉及中央跟地方的，比如說借路權；要移動停放好的機車前要貼公告等等，很多時候就是找警察局；有的是公務局；有的是文化局等等各種單位，所以未來我希望中央跟地方可以更密切來合作。","接下來，因為我非常關注12項沃土計畫裡面的文化基地，除了剛剛講到的以西門町做為電影文化基地之外，我也想跟部長建議兩個我覺得也是臺北非常重要的基地。臺北是臺灣的首都，我們又有全臺灣最多的文資古蹟，而且我覺得臺北絕對要作為我們臺灣國際化城市的窗口。我認為我們城中區很適合打造成博物館文化基地，也就是結合12項沃土計畫當中的，結合博物館、藝文場館的內容，像城中區，部長，在此跟你分享，我們有菊元百貨，它比臺南的林百貨還要早一天開幕，所以是全臺灣目前最早的百貨公司，這是在日本時代成立的，最近正要開始進行文資的修復，所以未來也需要文化部大力幫忙。","再來，我認為城西區就以艋舺為基地，也非常適合作為一個文化基地，其中像寶島歌后紀露霞，部長一定比我更清楚，紀露霞首次演出就是在艋舺的河岸，那時候還是露天歌廳，就是在我們現在長沙街、環河南路口的那一個水門。部長，你的看法呢？我提的這些地方是不是未來你們打造文化基地要去評估的一些具潛力的據點？"],["李部長遠：沒有錯，譬如說，整個西門町當中，如果你要以艋舺這個地方來看，它也有茶的文化，它也有博物館的文化，像我們講中央電影公司以前是日治時代第一個可以看電影的地方，所以以上等等，足見萬華本身涵蓋的文化面非常多。謝謝你的建議，其實我當初要做文化基地，就是因為長期以來我們也累積了滿多社區再造、地方創生等等，還有博物館升級，這部分我們會請各方來推薦，最後我們會把它選出來。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝部長，我看到你們講文化基地，而且很重要的是，它也同樣要具有經濟跟觀光的潛力。"],["李部長遠：是，對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我剛剛提到這幾個都是現在臺北市國際觀光客造訪的前十大景點之一，所以我認為非常的合適，後續我會持續跟你們討論，有必要我們就一起到現場來會勘，趕快把它打造起來，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員。","接下來有請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"155964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63cd2378e5637aa385d7b602dab1c650f9e99cfeeb60987bc2efbef1088df2b8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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多的可以拿去賣嘛那你們的今天夜報也寫了齁就是2023年以後想要參考國際碳價的水準訂定什麼樣呢每噸1200元至1800元"},{"start":141.428,"end":150.876,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為我看到現在很多人都自己喊價嘛那個可以拿去賣的有的可以喊到4800喔那我這個也都沒有關係因為對我來講越高越好啊可是我現在想要看一下就是在我們的這個管理辦法當中的第7條它有提到一個第一項的第一款移除的類型"},{"start":168.95,"end":181.858,"text":"其實我們在辦的那個公益平台其實就是大概是屬於這一個類型那它也是含原住民族地區的自然碳會也就是一般會拿來去做企業的一個抵換移除那現在我想要問一下環境部部長"},{"start":188.442,"end":202.687,"text":"就是誘因也是足夠的那碳減量長期的趨勢呢又有剛性的需求那麼我評估啊請幫忙評估我就講五年後就好了會有多少企業加入這個自主減量專案"},{"start":204.764,"end":228.175,"text":"我先問好了,剛才那個超過2.5萬公噸的齁,我有看到資料,大概是281家500場嘛。對。好,那請教一下5年後,有多少企業會加入這個自主減量?我跟委員報告,這一些企業其實明年就要提自主減量計畫了。因為如果他要適用優惠費率,他明年提自主減量計畫。你就告訴我,你預估大概多少家、多少場?"},{"start":230.156,"end":246.064,"text":"可能500場最少400場一定會提因為那個像委員剛剛的那個簡報有看我是講5年後5年後因為5年後我們的收費對象不曉得會不會調整或者是我們有沒有可能要進到那會變多還是變少應該會越來越多會大概成長5年後會成長到多少因為還要看我們那個往下調的那個時程"},{"start":257.37,"end":272.48,"text":"其實這一波不是我很關心的啦我關心的是山林的自然碳會啊所以我為什麼要問這個問題現在我為什麼一直問2.5萬公噸以上有多少家因為你的第三方驗證的機構現在不到15家嘛"},{"start":275.802,"end":281.305,"text":"而驗證費用將近一百萬那些超過2.5萬公噸的他也不擔心嘛是吧你要去做這個碳盤查又要去後來的幫他做減量規劃、碳移除的驗證費用我不擔心這些2.5萬公噸以上的我擔心的是未來的小型企業加入"},{"start":298.274,"end":326.255,"text":"那驗證費這麼貴．排隊的又那麼多．所以我想請教環境部長．那第三方驗證機構量能不足．會不會影響減量的規模．無法達標?應該是不會啦．因為我們目前的驗證機構．其實量能夠．多少家．目前有15家．15家夠．有大概200．是不是會後補充資料．好那沒有關係關係我現在就是要提醒．"},{"start":327.336,"end":334.402,"text":"因為我關心的就是未來的自然碳會現在我是認為那麼會不會影響未來你講的220、320、碳加水準1200至1800的一個目標那如果說我們沒有辦法完成碳盤查、碳減量那市場要怎麼達標所以我希望經濟部我也想問你的業報說要協助產業人才那我們自己國內能做的"},{"start":352.398,"end":352.538,"text":"謝謝吳立法委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":878,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai 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18歲嘛然後我剛畢業嘛然後我現在可能就是要打一個全國性的比賽可是我在這一年當中我接到冰單了那我是不是可以拿著我現在要去參加這個"},{"start":532.616,"end":551.773,"text":"電競比賽的證明然後來向你們辦理緩爭這個部分他就是他接到徵集令之後那他有這個延期徵集的需要就可以用這個部分來適用來辦理延期徵集好那這個部分就是我再跟您確認一次因為很多的電競選手特別擔心就是"},{"start":553.355,"end":564.823,"text":"電競它屬於運動賽事體育賽事的一環所以如果說我們的電競選手在打比賽在準備比賽的過程當中接到冰單可以以這個第29條內的副表第16類的參加全國以上運動會比賽者那能夠來緩爭"},{"start":572.108,"end":599.599,"text":"好那非常謝謝因為這個對於我們的電競選手來說我跟他們溝通過他們都非常的擔心一年期的兵役會去這個壓縮到他們的這個準備時間那再來那謝謝您謝謝再來我想要問這個部長這個關於國軍聘僱人員的部分就是部長您知道我們在國軍的公務人員跟聘僱人員的放假日有差別這件事情嗎"},{"start":602.196,"end":625.212,"text":"如果是聘僱人員的話他應該是適用勞基法的相關規定吧對但是呢在九三軍人節上面竟然是兩樣情我們可以看一下這個圖片你可以看喔如果按照我們國防部的國防法規資料庫裡面國防部的公務人員出勤事項裡面呢九三軍人節沒錯的話應該是放假吧"},{"start":627.422,"end":644.782,"text":"93軍人放假對那好我們看一下右邊的如果是你是國軍聘僱人員的話請假規定你只能在五一勞動節跟93軍人節之間選擇一天來放假好這就是剛您講到的因為聘僱他可能是這個適用勞基法等等的"},{"start":645.25,"end":667.49,"text":"但是五一勞動節換九三軍人節實際上面勞動契約就已經把它寫死了九三軍人節卻是配合機關作息的在國軍軍內支援的這些公務人員等於說這些聘僱人員就少一天的假"},{"start":668.191,"end":687.912,"text":"那部長那我們這個五一上班的話那我們的薪資會多給嗎還是只能用換價的方式這有沒有任何雙方可以協議的方式可以來協助這些聘僱人員也能得到他們應該所屬的你剛剛說嗎勞工勞工權益"},{"start":691.555,"end":718.987,"text":"五一勞動節按照這個勞基法的規定他屬於勞工的話應該就可以放假那現在如果按照這裡的休請假的規定當然我事先沒有看過不過如果按照這裡講他的應該是說他可以選擇跟九三軍人節則一致來放假所以按照他這個意思應該就是說他還是可以休假只是說他可以選擇在九三或者在五一的那一天來放假這樣來休假"},{"start":719.747,"end":745.394,"text":"那因為呢你們上面寫說五一跟九三二日擇一休假就是不能寫死說兩天互換不然就會違反這個勞基法所以呢我們是訴求是說啊就是可以跟公務跟五一勞動節對公務人員沒有休假五一勞動節公務人員沒有休假那但是聘僱人員是你可以擇一休假嘛但是呢你這個五一勞動節"},{"start":747.318,"end":775.129,"text":"跟九三軍人節擇一休假的部分實際執行就是在聘僱人員在五一勞動節要求要上班跟九三軍人節一起休通常我們的狀況是這樣所以我們的建議是說呢就你看你要不要直接歇死比方說你就是五一勞動節你可以休假那九三軍人節你是屬於你是屬於這個你不是屬於軍方公務人員因為你是聘僱人員所以九三軍人節你就不放假"},{"start":775.569,"end":781.812,"text":"就說你不要用換價的方式你直接寫清楚他們是屬於哪一種的勞僱關係我覺得這樣子在整個我們跟這個聘僱人員雙方的合約請假規定上面會比較明確不然的話呢你這樣寫說好像可以選擇但實際上很多日常時候啊他們根本沒有選擇的機會"},{"start":795.757,"end":821.644,"text":"就變成是說長官要他放哪一次他就放哪一次所以我的建議是既然93軍人節是軍人在放那聘僱人員呢那他如果是屬於勞動的勞動契約的那你就是讓他放五一勞動節那93軍人節就不放假就是大家一個一個要寫清楚這是我比較具體的建議那這部分部長您再回去思考看看不急著給我做回應但是如果有新的進度的話再麻煩再跟我們說是好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":826.181,"end":826.522,"text":"謝謝許曉欣委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時24分）謝謝主席。我們先請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。先簡單請問一下，中國大陸聯合利劍A跟B的演習，就您觀察而言，A跟B的主要差別您覺得是在於哪裡？"],["顧部長立雄：這個我想在上一個禮拜我大概有回答過了，大概有幾個特徵，當然就是說，遼寧艦在我們的東南面從艦載機起飛，這個部分是一個重點。那另外當然就是說，這一次的海警船增加，過去是在東面的，在聯合利劍A演習時是4艘，現在擴大到12艘。當然這一次的演習地點特別是沒有包括金門。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。針對A跟B這兩次軍演封鎖，目前我們自己評估臺灣的突圍能力是如何？以及在跟中國大陸軍演的應對過程當中，我們要如何避免軍事衝突？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我已經一再回答，就是說，因為這一次宣布是一個drill，是一個操演的行為，不是真正要進入封鎖的狀態，那我的意思是說，如果真正要進入封鎖的狀態，應該就是一個軍事行動，然後是一個交戰行為，這個時候我們國軍整個進入一個應急作戰的階段，那對於這樣子的一個封鎖，我們可以合法地行使自衛反擊，這個是國際法上所認可的一個作為。如果它是單純地進行封鎖，而沒有後續的武力攻擊的話，那對於這個封鎖如何來應對，當然我們也有相關的應對的方式。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["顧部長立雄：那我另外也要再說明，就是說，它如果真的單純只是這樣的一個封鎖，我認為全世界不可能坐視不管，因為它影響全球的經濟實在太巨大了，包括自己的中國經濟，大概傷人十分，自己自傷大概都也要六、七分。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。而且對臺灣來講，也是一個重擊。所以我們希望，如果未來他們以封鎖之實，實際上是行統戰，這個也不是叫統戰，就是威脅到臺灣的安全的時候，國防部也要有我們自己應對的方式。"],["顧部長立雄：現在這個階段應該只是在操演，就是在做一個心理威懾的……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，他們現在只是在做演習而已啦。我只是說我們要預判未來可能發生的情況，做一些提醒。","謝謝。請內政部替代役中心也一起上台，好嗎？因為我們今天主要要問的問題是跟專長替代役還有研發替代役有關的事情，好不容易有這個機會，國防部跟內政部研發替代役相關單位在一起，所以我特別想提這個問題。來，我們給大家看一下，94年1月1日出生的役男兵役改成一年之後，現在所有的專長替代役跟研發替代役是不是都已經取消了呢？"],["卓副執行長煥新：報告委員，94年次以後的役男，目前是暫時不開放受理專長資格來申請服替代役。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼要把研發替代役跟專長替代役都刪除呢？"],["卓副執行長煥新：因為94年次的役男役期改變為一年，現在還在研議，至於研發替代役這個部分，94年次的役男預判會到118年之後才會研究所畢業，所以這個部分還……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是每個人都讀研究所啊，像我都還沒畢業。"],["卓副執行長煥新：這部分因為到118年才會影響到，所以目前還在研議是不是到時候會來開放。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。產業及專長替代役的需求總員額數，我們可以看一下研發替代役的員額資料跟專長替代役的員額資料，需求數跟入營人數，以研發替代役來說，其實也都還算是有滿大的需求量。今天我要特別講一個類別，在這麼多的研發替代役裡面，我要特別講一個類別，也希望顧部長能夠瞭解看看，就是電競。大家都知道，我們在體育上面，在電競方面，臺灣算是世界之光，最近還在打LOL的全世界大賽，我看到有好多我們的年輕人在LOL的電競大賽上面發光發熱，所以電子競技其實是一個現在很重要的體育賽事的運動。電競跟體育選手很類似，他們擔任職業選手的精華年齡普遍是18歲以上，你說到30歲，其實都是年紀偏大的，大概基本上是18歲到二十幾歲，他們在電競圈活躍的年齡，甚至比體育選手還要短，因為他們同時是手腦並用，所以，以這個階段來說，依法規就是服兵役的主要年紀，所以我國也面對了普遍的體育選手有不同的兵役，因為延期到一年之後的處理方式，主要就是替代役、補充役或是緩徵，目前的專長替代役雖然有公告，有人申請就有機會，但是這些電競替代役的執行相關單位都是文化部主管，現在這個政策在取消的狀態之下，等於這些電競選手的職業生涯就會碰到問題。我們看一下電競專長替代役的數據，你看，其實每年能夠申請的人數跟錄取的人數比例都是非常低的，我們去問過這些電競選手，得知有幾個原因，第一個就是我們怎麼去認可這些賽事，第二個就是他們申請之後實際上在替代役的過程當中能夠做什麼。在補充役的部分，依據國家體育競技代表隊的補充服兵役辦法，電競選手是可以包含在裡面的嗎？就你們所知道的。"],["卓副執行長煥新：這個部分，據我們所瞭解，運動選手這部分是體育署所主管的，所以這部分原則上目前是沒有包含在這邊。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以在體育競技補充兵役辦法裡面有提到，某一些特殊等級的電競選手可以獲得補充役，例如說，像現行的規定是亞運才有，明年國際奧運也會舉辦第一屆的電競奧運，那當然，如果電競被納進相關的國家競技體育代表隊補充兵役辦法第三條第一項的運動項目，也是一種解套的方式，但是我們想要問的是說，電競選手會符合緩徵的資格嗎？我們看一下圖好不好？我們看第二十九條的附件，第二十九條的附表中第十六類是參加全國以上運動會比賽者，也可以依據證明來緩徵到比賽結束為止。但是電競選手是不是不符合這樣的資格？"],["卓副執行長煥新：報告委員，我說明一下，這個是延期徵集，是接到徵集令之後再辦延期徵集，像這個部分是可以來申請的。"],["徐委員巧芯：電競選手也可以？"],["卓副執行長煥新：這是延期徵集的。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我知道，我是說，延期徵集的部分，電競選手也可以緩徵嗎？我是說第十六類喔！因為過去電競沒有被分類在體育，是這幾年才把它分類到體育，所以我想要問的是，緩徵入營事故表裡面提到了，參加全國以上運動會比賽者，應繳證明，只要提供相關機構證明，都可以准予延期入營時間到比賽結束日止，那這個部分電競選手也可以去申請嗎？"],["卓副執行長煥新：是。他如果是為了參加比賽的話，是可以辦理延期徵集的，但是前提是要接到徵集令，這個部分是沒問題的。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，當然啊。我的意思就是說，比如說，我今天18歲，我剛畢業，我現在可能要參加一個全國性的比賽，可是我在這一年當中接到兵單，那我是不是可以拿著我現在要去參加電競比賽的證明，然後來向你們辦理緩徵？"],["卓副執行長煥新：這個部分就是他接到徵集令之後，他有延期徵集的需要，就可以用這個部分來適用，來辦理延期徵集到比賽完為止。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那這個部分我再跟您確認一次，因為很多的電競選手特別擔心的，就是電競屬於運動賽事、體育賽事的一環，所以如果我們的電競選手在準備比賽的過程當中接到兵單，可以以第二十九條內的附表中第十六類參加全國以上運動會的比賽者，來辦理緩徵？好，那非常謝謝。因為這個對於我們的電競選手來說很重要，我跟他們溝通過，他們都非常擔心因為一年期的兵役而壓縮到他們的準備時間。謝謝您，謝謝。","再來，我想要問部長關於國軍聘僱人員的部分。部長，您知道國軍的公務人員跟聘僱人員的放假日有差別這件事情嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：如果是聘僱人員的話，他應該是適用勞基法的相關規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。但是在九三軍人節竟然是兩樣情，我們可以看一下這個圖片，你可以看，如果按照國防部的國防法規資料庫裡面的國防部公務人員出勤事項，九三軍人節應該是放假吧？"],["顧部長立雄：九三軍人節軍人放假。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，那好我們看一下右邊的圖，如果你是國軍聘僱人員的話，按照請假規定，你只能在五一勞動節跟九三軍人節之間選擇一天來放假，這就是剛剛您講到的，因為聘僱可能適用勞基法，但是五一勞動節可以換九三軍人節這項規定，實際上勞動契約就已經把它寫死了，九三軍人節是配合機關作息的，在國軍軍內支援的這些聘僱人員就少一天的假，部長，如果他們在五一勞動節上班的話，薪資會多給嗎？還是只能用換假的方式？這有沒有任何雙方可以協議的方式，可以來協助這些聘僱人員也能得到你剛剛說的他們應該有的勞工權益？"],["顧部長立雄：五一勞動節，按照這個勞基法的規定，他屬於勞工的話，應該就可以放假。現在如果按照這裡的休請假規定，當然我事先沒有看過，不過如果按照這裡講的，應該是說，他可以選擇跟九三軍人節擇一日來放假，所以按照這個意思，應該就是說他還是可以休假，只是說他可以選擇在九三或者五一的那一天來休假。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為你們上面寫說五一跟九三此二日擇一休假，就是不能寫死說兩天互換，不然就會違反勞基法了，所以我們的訴求是說，可以跟公務……"],["顧部長立雄：五一勞動節公務人員沒有休假。"],["徐委員巧芯：五一勞動節的公務人員沒有休假？但是聘僱人員可以擇一休假嘛。五一勞動節跟九三軍人節擇一休假的部分，實際執行就是聘僱人員在五一勞動節要求要上班，跟九三軍人節一起休，通常我們的狀況是這樣，所以我們的建議就是，你看要不要直接寫死，比方說，就是五一勞動節可以休假，在九三軍人節，因為他們不是屬於軍方公務人員，是聘僱人員，所以九三軍人節就不放假，就是說不要用換假的方式，你直接寫清楚他們是屬於哪一種的勞雇關係，我覺得這樣子，軍方跟聘僱人員雙方的合約請假規定上面會比較明確，不然的話，你這樣寫說好像可以選擇，但是實際上很多日常的時候他們根本沒有選擇的機會，就變成是長官要他放哪一次，他就放哪一次。所以我的建議是，既然九三軍人節是軍人在放，那聘僱人員如果是屬於勞動契約的，那你就是讓他放五一勞動節，那九三軍人節就不放假，就是大家一個一個要寫清楚，這是我比較具體的建議，這個部分部長您再回去思考看看，不急著給我回應，但是如果有新的進度的話，麻煩再跟我們說。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員。部長請回。","現在先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時38分）","繼續開會（11時44分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請黃國昌委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"155962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63c5124167ae9e1037d7b602dab1c650f9e99cfeeb60987bc2903ae40ffbf143735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:32:17 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次長"},{"start":214.352,"end":219.62,"text":"有要補充資料我歡迎會後給我補充但是本席要看到的是真實的數據來那個施市長"},{"start":225.558,"end":245.82,"text":"我們現在推動這個碳費的部分但有沒有看到現在民間已經開始有ESG的近鄰永續管理師課程但是很多人講說這課程可能沒有取得國內外認證讓民眾白花錢甚至會有碳費的這個空調系統購入要數百萬的替換但問環境部才知沒這個事"},{"start":246.36,"end":274.92,"text":"那代表是說,碳費大家都關心也希望能夠降低但是好像坊間的這種課程或是坊間的淨零相關的這些課程都變成是參差不齊我們有沒有做這樣的一個盤查?跟委員報告我們其實一直有在做兩件事情第一件事情是其實就法規而言我們是只有盤查的這個執照那第二件事情其實我們要那有沒有注意到這個亂象?有有有有這個亂象要怎麼解決呢?因為"},{"start":275.6,"end":290.468,"text":"一方面環境部是管理單位一方面經濟部可能有相關因為經濟部為什麼會跟你比較相關是因為很多企業可能會不管是病急亂投醫不管是他想要去了解想要ESG的這個永續師但沒想到他根本沒有認證"},{"start":291.752,"end":308.831,"text":"那這是哪一個單位要管理?我們未來會成立一個綠領人才的平台那把各部會其實比較官方的這個訓練環境部主導?對對對什麼時候會成立?我們現在還在跟各部會要做收集資料應該明年年初會有一個平台的雛型出來"},{"start":309.372,"end":324.305,"text":"好 本席希望這個規劃也給本席一份會後資料因為這一個亂象其實已經從5月到現在但是感覺起來是因為碳費的一個收徵而更加加劇所以希望主管單位能夠盡速好不好 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而是你今天可不可以平安回家。部長，您那時候應該也在現場，也聽到了這位領獎人的遺孀特別講到這個部分。在今年、上一個會期，我針對影視產業工作者的勞權問題跟職安訓練，也提出了我自己的一些看法。關於勞動部專案檢查，因為文化部其實算是主管機關，在全臺灣所有的拍攝地，不管是攝影棚內也好，或者是棚外一些攝影的劇組，還是節目的劇組，他們在拍攝的過程當中，我不知道關於勞檢的部分，文化部這邊有沒有掌握？有沒有一些數據或者是對於上半年的盤點，有一些數據可以提供給我們呢？部長。"],["李部長遠：我大概在2022年的時候有提供給勞動部拍攝片場跟攝影棚名冊……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為上個會期、3月的時候，其實就我所知道的，文化部的報告中只有25家而已，現在有增加嗎？"],["李部長遠：對，目前增加到62家。"],["郭委員昱晴：有62家。"],["李部長遠：還有外景場所，這個部分我們一直持續增加中。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，上個會期我就希望了，既然我們希望有更多的心血能夠投入影視工作，我們也希望給觀眾更多不同的視野跟更廣的視聽環境，希望能夠把職安規範也納入相關科系的院所當中，成為一個必修的課程，這個部分有跨會跟教育部討論嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個部分我們跟教育部或者是跟業者都有討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：要討論？是有討論還是還沒討論？將來會討論？"],["李部長遠：應該有討論，請王局長來回答一下。"],["王局長淑芳：跟委員報告，教育部的部分，我們目前是沒有討論，但是我們是補助公協會跟業者，就是跟他們做職安的教育訓練，目前的作法是這樣子。"],["郭委員昱晴：可不可以也跨部會來做？因為其實有很多人對於這個行業還是有一定的憧憬，不管是幕前或幕後，他們也希望畢業之後能夠真正投入業界，可是在職安的部分我覺得是非常重要的，是不是有可能把這樣的課程也納入大專相關院所當中，這個部分可以跟教育部再來討論嗎？"],["王局長淑芳：沒問題，我們馬上去跟教育部協調。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，接下來我想要問的是，剛剛陳培瑜委員有特別提到，對於自己的創作跟出版業者自己的書籍被盜版的問題，文化部不能再這麼的消極。另外一個問題，我想要提的就是文化輸出跟文化被挪用，文化部是不是也應該要拿出一點點自己的態度跟積極和霸氣出來？","因應臺灣文化不要被挪用，也不要被弱化，這裡有一個例子，就是最近加拿大有一個實境秀，裡面有一個珍奶產品的品牌叫做Bobba，他刻意忽略了珍珠奶茶起源是在臺灣這樣的一個行銷政策，當然在網路上其實也有很多人廣泛討論，最主要的原因是因為華裔演員劉思慕他也特別質疑這個Bobba珍奶的業者有涉嫌文化挪用這樣的狀況跟問題。","如果部長還記得，其實我們在巴黎奧運時也特別有文化奧運臺灣館，大家都是為了搶福袋裡頭的波霸奶茶胸針，不只是每一個人都想要，連選手自己本身也都要互做交換，所以波霸奶茶其實是臺灣的一個特有文化，但我們也不容許這個被污名化，或者是文化被挪用而不說明，就這個部分，文化部有更積極、更強勢的面對嗎？"],["李部長遠：面對這個問題，其實我們有兩個方向，一個是國際合作的在地化，就是我們跟很多不同單位，譬如亞洲藝術文獻庫、臺灣獨立藝術空間等等，建立一個數位檔案，然後有中英文的雙語，這是在國際的方面；如果是在地文化國際化，我們本身也向許多單位去推廣我們臺灣自己本身的一些品牌還有作品，這個部分是分兩個方向來做。"],["郭委員昱晴：就這樣？有一些比較具體的說明嗎？我的意思是，將來面對這種問題有可能層出不窮的時候，我們的臺灣文化要怎麼樣去捍衛呢？"],["李部長遠：今年我們開始比較有能力做大型的展覽會，像剛剛提到的巴黎奧運，就只能透過這種大型的展會，在不同的地方去展現我們文化的實力。明年我們在日本會做類似大阪世博這樣的活動，我們透過一些跟國際交流……"],["郭委員昱晴：有一些其實是跟政策上的語言相關，維護臺灣文化是文化部首要的責任，不管是在國際或者是國內，其實都是一樣的，我想這個態度要先拿出來再說，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，可以。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。最後一點時間，我來問一下，因為等一下大概半個小時過後，周杰倫演唱會門票要開始販售了，很多人急著要搶票，我就先幫一位身心障礙者說話，因為他有特別致電到我的辦公室，他特別提到搶票、買票這個部分平權的問題，對於所謂的身心障礙者，是不是可以更加的人性化、更加的友善？因為就他所講的，現在還要用傳真回傳，經過人工的統計、審核之後再回復，而人工的統計是不是還要跟衛福部來確認他身障的身分？通常從回傳到確定都已經過了5天，不好意思，5分鐘就可能搶完的票，你要他等5天？我不知道這個部分，針對目前我們展演售票的系統，是不是有一個相對比較友善的因應方式，讓很多身障者也能夠進場去觀看呢？"],["李部長遠：我們其實已經經過多次的溝通，像那個售票系統也向我們提出申請，開始進行測試。"],["郭委員昱晴：進行測試，所以是業者不願意配合，還是都只在測試的階段嗎？是主辦方不採用這樣的系統嗎？"],["李部長遠：我請司長說明一下。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["吳司長宜璇：謝謝委員的提問，我們大概從111年開始，其實確實也跟衛福部這邊完成了介接，希望所有的售票平臺都能夠介接這樣子的系統，然後就可以加速身障者購票時的身分認證，因為每一個系統的開發都需要一些時間，我們也持續在請各個售票平臺都能進行。到目前為止，大概已經有13家業者完成測試介接並上線服務，剛剛有提到的拓元，因為它的速度比較慢，但它現在也已經跟我們申請了測試帳號，我們會請它儘快加速建置，完成介接服務的提供。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，因為去年9月統計出的身心障礙者人數就已經超過我們全國總人數的5%了，所以不要剝奪他們的權利，能夠快就快，當然，如果是卡在業者的部分，我想文化部就這個部分是不是也可以輔導一些業者能夠儘快地採用這樣的系統，讓人家在線上就可以做購票的動作？等一下就要開始搶票了，如果這禮拜我沒有再接到陳情者的電話，表示他有搶票成功；如果沒有，下次我們再來問，好不好？謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"155960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63e488ecdbbf5e3a0dd7b602dab1c650f9e99cfeeb60987bc2941388ba911f71655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:27:10 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謝謝主席我請我們連次長第一部連次長還有我們中郵董事長台電今天是副總是吧台電副總好委員好好"},{"start":31.718,"end":60.265,"text":"好 市長就是有關於碳費的徵收其實產業界其實都非常的擔心以現在來講的話當然我們是先集中500家就是比較大型的產業但是接下來難免這個產業的那個家屬會越來越多那我們的環境部長說他說啊這個碳費的收費標準其實對產業來講就像針扎一下"},{"start":61.425,"end":81.993,"text":"不會很痛啦!還好啦!但是啊!我們的前經濟部長王美花部長說我們台灣的碳費現在是高於日本、韓國、中國那麼對於鋼鐵石化水泥業的壓力非常非常的大那所以請問一下次長我們到底應該聽環境部長說的話呢?還是我們前經濟部長說的話呢?"},{"start":86.495,"end":109.533,"text":"應該是中間 我要解釋一下因為確實如果是300塊你很機靈啊不是不是機靈應該如果是300塊就是像王前部長講壓力大如山但是後來這中間我們跟環境部在討論過程中有做一些配套措施這些措施一做下去應該也不是說稍微扎一下不痛啦也是會痛啦"},{"start":111.473,"end":133.078,"text":"對,並不是像環境部長講的這麼輕鬆啦那我為什麼請中油跟台電的董事長跟副總那剛才我也注意到李玉玲委員也有特別問到說中油大概是16億以目前的碳費如果那個配套做價做6億左右好,先等一下以現在來講16億,台電15億那麼"},{"start":137.359,"end":141,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施。"},{"start":160.487,"end":178.614,"text":"可能嗎?來,副總,可能嗎?委員好,臺電本身的減碳牌的自主性減碳,我們現在都已經在啟動。不是,可不可能,像他講的,你2026就要繳勒?是,這個是自主性減量,臺電在這個區塊裡面,"},{"start":185.817,"end":208.408,"text":"應該是可以做到這個…我…我不曉得你們如何…如何能做到齁?其實我們…我們的…立法院的預算中心報告就已經特別提到其實很多人都提到因為我們現在的發電燃料是仰賴進口然後火力的這個發電的占比高達八成之多我們怎麼…如何減碳?如何自…自組然後達到五億?"},{"start":215.811,"end":220.878,"text":"這個檢探跟那個燃料無關,這次台電客是他自身用電的這一塊,所以跟那個燃料那個無關,所以他自身的用電這一塊,"},{"start":233.615,"end":254.88,"text":"他要透過一些效率提高這一部分還有一些設備要去做你們在這邊講都會留作記錄的對對對所以看你們如何能夠達到交五一我最後一個問題請問一下以現在的碳費標準是不是可以確保不會影響我們的油電價格能不能來次長講"},{"start":256.024,"end":282.964,"text":"就目前如果一個是五億、一個是六億應該是不應該影響可是現在不是五億、六億阿你們還很努力阿如果以十五億、十六億來講如果以十五億、十六億會不會影響油電價格我認為不應該轉嫁不應該,你可不可以承諾因為環境部首長說不要問我阿要問那個經濟部阿可以承諾嗎如果減碳是五億、六億那這個東西本來就他們要自己吸收不過以現在來講你可不可以承諾嗎一句話"},{"start":284.721,"end":284.881,"text":"我認為不應該轉嫁"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時27分）謝謝主席，我請連次長。"],["主席：經濟部連次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有中油董事長。"],["主席：中油李董事長。"],["王委員鴻薇：台電今天是副總是吧？"],["主席：台電副總。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長，有關於碳費的徵收，其實產業界都非常地擔心，以現在來講的話，當然我們是先集中500家比較大型的產業，但是接下來產業的家數會越來越多。那我們的環境部長說，碳費的收費標準對產業來講就像針扎一下，不會很痛啦！還好啦！但是前經濟部長王美花部長說，臺灣的碳費現在是高於日本、韓國、中國，對於鋼鐵、石化、水泥業的壓力非常非常地大，請問次長，我們應該聽環境部長說的話，還是聽前經濟部長說的話？"],["連次長錦漳：應該是中間啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：中間哦？"],["連次長錦漳：我解釋一下，因為確實如果是300元……"],["王委員鴻薇：你很機靈啊！"],["連次長錦漳：不是機靈，如果是300元，就像王前部長講的，壓力大如山。但是後來我們跟環境部在討論過程中有做一些配套措施，這些措施一做下去，應該也不是說稍微扎一下不痛啦！也是會痛啦！所以是介於這兩者中間。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，並不是像環境部長講得這麼輕鬆啦！我為什麼請中油董事長跟台電副總？剛才我也注意到，呂玉玲委員有特別問到，說中油大概是16億，以目前的碳費。"],["連次長錦漳：如果做那個配套差不多6億左右。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，先等一下，以現在來講16億，台電15億。"],["連次長錦漳：五億多，現在……"],["王委員鴻薇：而且經濟部並沒有要給它補貼，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：要想辦法去減排，所以在上個禮拜，因為我也同樣在我們衛環質詢，經濟部長跟我講說台電如果很努力減碳，就可以達到只要交5億的碳費。"],["連次長錦漳：對，對，對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，副總，可能嗎？"],["郭副總經理天合：委員好。就台電本身的自主性減碳，我們現在都已經在啟動。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，可不可能像他講的？"],["郭副總經理天合：可以。"],["王委員鴻薇：你2026就要就繳了耶！"],["郭副總經理天合：是，這個是自主性減量，台電在這個區塊裡面，應該是可以做到從15億降到5億。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不曉得你們如何能做到，我們立法院的預算中心報告就已經特別提到，其實有很多人都提到，因為我們現在的發電燃料是仰賴進口，然後火力發電的占比高達八成之多，我們如何減碳，如何自主，然後達到5億？"],["郭副總經理天合：跟委員做個說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：我時間很短，到時候說我沒有效率。"],["郭副總經理天合：是，我們從效率提高，然後……"],["連次長錦漳：我跟委員報告，減碳跟那個燃料無關，這一次台電課的是它自身用電這一塊，所以跟燃料無關。在它自身用電這一塊，它要透過提高效率，還有一些設備要去做汰換……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們在這邊講的都會留做紀錄。"],["連次長錦漳：對，對，對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以看你們如何能夠達到交5億。好，我最後一個問題，請問一下，以現在的碳費標準，是不是可以確保不會影響我們的油電價格？能不能？來，次長講。"],["連次長錦漳：就目前如果一個是5億，一個是6億，不應該影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是現在不是5億、6億啊！你們還說要很努力耶！如果以15億、16億來講，如果以15億、16億，會不會影響油電價格？"],["連次長錦漳：我認為不應該轉嫁。"],["王委員鴻薇：不應該，你可不可以承諾？"],["連次長錦漳：我可以。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為環境部次長說不要問我，要問經濟部啊！可以承諾嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：不是，如果減碳是5億、6億，那這個東西本來就是他們要自己吸收。"],["王委員鴻薇：不過以現在來講，你可不可以承諾嘛？一句話。"],["連次長錦漳：我認為不應該轉嫁。"],["王委員鴻薇：你認為不應該轉嫁，但是你不敢承諾，這也許是今天經濟部長不來的一個主要原因，不要現在講那麼好，我們最擔心的就是會轉嫁給我們的消費者，以上。"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們會把關。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員，次長請回座。","下一位質詢請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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的這個碳邊境的這樣子的一個機制的恐怕也不是只有CBAM一套系統比如說美國好了它就有這個Clean Competition Act這叫做清潔競爭法案它其實就是所謂美國版的CBAM"},{"start":53.762,"end":70.787,"text":"那個次長對於這個法案的進步有沒有了解?因為我知道我那時候在擔任標準局局長的時候就在貫徹這個案子但是這個案子現在好像有點稍微偏頂一下我只要問簡單先問啦你們有沒有掌握他的修法期程因為他的國會如果還沒有通過當然就不會執行可是我要提醒的是他如果執行喔他不像CBAM還有三年緩衝期喔"},{"start":71.707,"end":86.68,"text":"他若一執行他本來預估是2020就直接要開始課而且從範圍的比較上來講他也不是只是像歐盟一樣先從比如說水泥啊鋼鐵開始他是連電子零組件跟電動車相關產業他都涵蓋在內所以我希望第一我提醒經濟部對於他這個修法進度要"},{"start":87.361,"end":113.997,"text":"要提早掌握好不好這不要因為我們現在討論都還是都還是CBAM的範圍但不會只有CBAM這世界各國的相關的一些進度都要有所掌握這本期第一個提醒喔第二個回到CBAM的這個題目來做探討現在是六大類嘛對不對鋼鐵、水泥、鋁、化肥、氫還有肥料肥料、化肥嘛我剛剛講化肥還有氫跟電力嘛這六大類是CBAM優先要處理的這個項目其中跟我國相關的比較多是哪一種哪幾個類別"},{"start":115.038,"end":131.032,"text":"主要是鋼鐵跟它的下游的扣件、金屬製品扣件是後來加進來的。對。那其他的像鋁、水泥、肥料這些我們都很少見。相對少嘛。跟歐盟直接有貿易相關,當然是鋼鐵那邊。應該是鋼鐵、鋼石、鋼纜、螺絲等等一些相關產業。所以它其實是,你現在其實我們從國內產業的分析,你就可以初階段的了解哪些產業受到衝擊最大。"},{"start":139.079,"end":166.865,"text":"那今天大部分委員都關心就是碳定價的問題也就是碳費怎麼做銜接這當然很重要但本期要關心的是碳盤查的進度我為什麼要講碳盤查的進度呢是因為如果你沒有辦法自己算出來叫做所謂的這個實際含碳排放量你用CBAM的標準你自己算得出來就用實際的量去算對不對你如果算不出來的時候你什麼都沒教的時候歐盟的CBAM機制就叫設定含碳排放量也就是歐盟境內的最高排放標準那個就會造成很大的衝擊"},{"start":167.805,"end":192.864,"text":"所以我認為在討論定價跟銜接之前非常重要的其實是碳盤查的進度啦我們如果沒有辦法推動每一個企業都去做到實際排放量的計算你好歹也要有一個國家平均排放量嘛對不對所以政府在裡面是有角色的好我現在要問了這個我們剛剛講鋼鐵相關的產業總共幾家產業受到衝擊大型企業跟中小企業佔比分別是多少請問經濟部有沒有數字這個我們有去齁其實大型企業就是剛才講的"},{"start":193.604,"end":194.405,"text":"中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、中、"},{"start":211.604,"end":229.733,"text":"每一家都跑過了?對那我沒有在報告裡看到碳盤查的進度有有有碳盤查我們應該是不是每一家都希望我們進去做碳盤查應該是做到將近七成左右你現在這幾家對你講七成的進度我希望你會後提供一個完整的報告就是說針對第一波受到高衝擊的產業你的碳盤查的進度是什麼?"},{"start":231.594,"end":258.675,"text":"我們國家未來是要有效的輔導這些受到衝擊的產業去讓它完成自己可以算出實際含碳排量還是說我國家要因為實際上操作有些困難因為它有技術門檻等等我至少要有一個國家平均含碳量的這樣一個計算而且我們每一家我們貿易署也都找美國的那個法律專家欸!歐盟的法律專家針對這個怎麼去弄有沒有時間就碳盤查的部分有沒有一個計算完成的時間表"},{"start":261.355,"end":287.721,"text":"我們叫過之後他就已經是完成了嗎?好,那你就把會後提供詳細的報告。因為2026年起徵之前嘛,你現在甚至都要申報了。這個我們把資料送給委員好不好?好不好,這個碳盤查輔導的速度一定要加快。我們才能夠算出真正的經濟衝擊嘛。我們才能討論後來配套措施對不對?我們也有協助其他行業的來做碳盤查。這個我希望在這樣的報告裡其實要看到碳盤查的進度啦。請會後提供可以嗎?好,謝謝市長辛苦了。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":721,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時22分）謝謝主席，經濟部次長有請。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長午安。今天討論碳費的部分，當然大家現在都在討論，因為看起來比較具體的是歐盟CBAM的機制，2023年10月開始做申報，預計到2026年開始起徵，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對，開始起徵。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個期程相對明確，但世界各國在施行相關的碳邊境機制，恐怕也不是只有CBAM一套系統，比如說美國好了，它就有Clean 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Act，這個叫做清潔競爭法案，它其實就是美國版的CBAM，次長對於這個法案的進度有沒有瞭解？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我知道，因為我擔任標準局局長的時候就在關切這個案子，但是這個案子現在好像有點稍微偏停下。"],["牛委員煦庭：我簡單先問，你們有沒有掌握它的修法期程？因為國會如果還沒有通過，當然就不會執行，可是我要提醒的是，它如果執行，它不像CBAM還有3年緩衝期哦！它如果一執行，它本來是預估2024就直接要開始課。"],["連次長錦漳：直接就實施。"],["牛委員煦庭：而且從範圍的比較上來講，它也不是像歐盟一樣，先從比如說水泥、鋼鐵開始，它是連電子零組件跟電動車相關產業都涵蓋在內，所以我希望第一個，我提醒經濟部，對於它的修法進度要提早掌握，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為我們現在討論的都還是CBAM的範圍，但是不會只有CBAM，所以世界各國相關的進度都要有所掌握，這是本席第一個提醒。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，回到CBAM這個題目來做探討，現在是六大類，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：鋼鐵、水泥、鋁、化肥、氫……"],["連次長錦漳：水泥、鋁，還有肥料。"],["牛委員煦庭：肥料，化肥嘛！我剛剛講化肥，還有氫跟電力，這六大類是CBAM優先要處理的項目，其中跟我國相關的，比較多是哪一種？哪幾種類別？"],["連次長錦漳：鋼鐵……"],["牛委員煦庭：鋼鐵嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：主要是鋼鐵跟它下游的……金屬製品扣件是後來加進來的，其他的像鋁、水泥、肥料，這些我們都很少出口。"],["牛委員煦庭：相對少嘛！跟歐盟直接有貿易相關，當然是鋼鐵類別，鋼鐵、鋼絲跟鋼纜，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：應該是以鋼鐵跟底下的那個扣件比較有關。"],["牛委員煦庭：螺絲等等，一些相關產業。所以我們從國內產業的分析，你就可以初階段的瞭解哪些產業受到的衝擊最大。"],["連次長錦漳：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天大部分的委員都關心碳定價的問題，也就是說碳費怎麼做銜接，這當然很重要，但是本席要關心的是碳盤查的進度。我為什麼要講碳盤查的進度呢？是因為你如果沒有辦法自己算出來所謂的實際含碳排放量，你從CBAM的標準，你自己算得出來就用實際的量去算，你如果算不出來的時候，你什麼都沒交的時候，歐盟的CBAM機制就是要設定含碳排放量嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是歐盟境內的最高排放標準，那個就會造成很大的衝擊啊！所以我認為在討論定價跟銜接之前，非常重要的，其實是碳盤查的進度啦！我們如果沒有辦法推動每一個企業都去做到實際排放量的計算，你好歹也要有一個國家平均排放量嘛！對不對？所以政府在裡面是有角色的。好，我現在要問了，我們剛剛講鋼鐵相關的產業，總共有幾家產業受到衝擊？大型企業跟中小企業的占比分別是多少？請問經濟部有沒有數字？"],["連次長錦漳：有，這個我們有去瞭解，其實大型企業就是剛才講的，中鋼、中龍那一些。"],["牛委員煦庭：中鋼、中龍等等，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：那少數幾家啦！底下跟製造業有關的，總共有兩千四百多家。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩千四百多家。"],["連次長錦漳：其中跟貿易商有關有一千多，總共加起來差不多將近4,000家。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以有4,000家，好。"],["連次長錦漳：針對這些貿易商跟製造商，我們每一家都跑過了。"],["牛委員煦庭：每一家都跑過了？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我沒有在報告裡看到碳盤查的進度？"],["連次長錦漳：有有有，碳盤查我們應該是……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我就問……"],["連次長錦漳：不是每一家都希望我們進去做碳盤查，應該是做到將近七成左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在這幾家，你講七成的進度，我希望你會後提供一個完整的報告。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是說針對第一波受到高衝擊的產業，你的碳盤查的進度是什麼。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們國家未來是要有效地輔導這些受到衝擊的產業，讓它自己可以算出實際含碳排放量，還是說我國家因為實際上操作有些困難，因為它有技術門檻等等，我至少要有一個國家平均含碳量的計算？這個有沒有時間表？"],["連次長錦漳：而且我們每一家，我們貿易署也都找歐盟的法律專家，針對這個怎麼去弄，我們也有一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有時間表？碳盤查的部分，有沒有一個計算完成的時間表？"],["連次長錦漳：我們教過之後，它就已經完成了。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你會後提供詳細的報告。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們是說有協助多少家做碳盤查。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為2026年起徵之前嘛！你現在甚至都要申報了。"],["連次長錦漳：我們把資料送給委員，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：好。碳盤查輔導的速度一定要加快，我們才能夠算出真正的經濟衝擊嘛！我們才能討論後來的配套措施，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：除了金屬扣件之外，我們也有協助其他行業來做碳排。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望在這樣的報告裡面……其實是要看到碳盤查的進度。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：請會後提供可以嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝次長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員非常有效率的質詢，次長請回座。","下一位質詢請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估，及政府協助企\n業因應之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長就\n「我國碳邊境調整機制（CBAM）推動規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138702_00001"}}},{"id":"155958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d638247d01bc23f78afea3bc5a9eeba56a8e99cfeeb60987bc2ee9170943cc9f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:13:53 - 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children, with children, by children我們做的所有事情基本上一定要建築在對"},{"start":81.377,"end":81.497,"text":"﹝講解中﹞"},{"start":102.751,"end":103.031,"text":"我聽起來應該是說設計師設計出了一個設計圖"},{"start":122.145,"end":122.245,"text":"是的﹖"},{"start":135.834,"end":162.707,"text":"那我想問一下就是說我不知道部長跟館長有沒有去過華盛頓的國家兒童博物館?華盛頓沒有好沒關係齁因為我今年呢其實我去了這個華盛頓兒童博物館然後我就有去看一下他們場內的一些配置跟設計那其實它裡面有非常多鬆散素材鬆散素材也就是說它不是一個既定的形式讓大家可以自己來去發展自己的創意所以每一個人看見的事情可能都是相當不一樣的"},{"start":163.547,"end":181.214,"text":"所以我會覺得說因為每一個活動辦起來都可能會有人批評也會非常滿意那我想跟部長跟館長分享幾個回饋這是我從團隊辦理團隊那邊的臉書上面看到他們收集到的一些使用者的回饋家長的回饋所以我希望說也可以平衡一下這個意見"},{"start":183.206,"end":195.706,"text":"家長說,透過優秀領導師的帶領,我看到了我和孩子的不同的面向。過程中我也發現了自己似乎總是希望孩子以我所希望的方式做事。我忽略了孩子本身的可能性。"},{"start":196.687,"end":217.418,"text":"第二孩子覺得活動很好玩孩子媽媽們也覺得孩子們透過環境的素材和做溝通完成任務是很棒的學習也讓孩子知道媽媽知道孩子在外面的樣子所以我想要我覺得未來可以做一些說明了因為這種參與式的模式還有這種鬆散素材的玩法對我們台灣的家長來說可能相當有點陌生"},{"start":218.979,"end":236.524,"text":"可是這個對於未來來說不管我們是面對AI世代來說已經有非常多的研究來講創造力才是一個還有跟人溝通解決問題的能力才是最重要的一個能力所以我想這也是兒童未來館所賦予一個最重要的精神所以再來第二個問題館長可以請回了我要問部長"},{"start":244.386,"end":257.636,"text":"我剛剛有聽到就是部長在回覆前面的委員有關於這個臺語跟閩南語的事情所以我想要做個說明啦簡單的考一下部長請問一下臺語這個詞是什麼時候出現在臺灣的歷史上面的應該在日治時代吧因為要區隔當時的國語是日語那請問一下閩南語是什麼時候出現的呢"},{"start":270.95,"end":271.05,"text":"﹚張雅琳"},{"start":298.248,"end":314.78,"text":"就是現在的做法就是找回自己原本的名字我希望部長可以支持這樣子的一個論述因為他其實是後來被偷走他自己原本的名字所以這個轉型正義是非常非常重要的其實剛剛前面有委員有提到說我們的"},{"start":316.441,"end":328.345,"text":"抱歉我先拉回來講一下就是說因為這台語是非常重要的那其實我在7月的時候有質詢部長有關於金曲獎我們使用了這個火星文他出不來沒有開好等一下"},{"start":336.192,"end":359.948,"text":"上次我在7月3號的時候我質詢部長就是有講到我們金曲獎他用我們講台語的時候他沒有使用政治那當時我有跟部長說拜託可不可以跟作者來做一些溝通如果他願意他一定要堅持用他原本的作詞但是我們可以在下面去把政治來標籤出來但是我在這一次的金曲獎我又再度看到了"},{"start":360.871,"end":375.971,"text":"沒有出現我們的政治我想台語是文化部唯一在推的一個主責機關這件事情我想知道到底發生了什麼事情因為當時部長有承諾我說不會在金馬獎跟金鐘獎再出現我想知道中間過程到底溝通的怎麼樣"},{"start":377.963,"end":397.569,"text":"還是根本沒有去溝通?有,就是我們也跟轉播單位三立談過這個問題。第一,他說當時取得他的歌詞就是這樣子,他不能改它,因為他原來的創作…同意啊,但是我們上次講的是說下面可以加正字嘛。是,那這個他當時沒有做,然後他認為它是一個傳播,希望更多人看懂。"},{"start":398.269,"end":420.599,"text":"但是我想這個金鐘獎跟金馬獎應該文化部都是一個主辦單位我們應該是可以要求的但看起來就是我們沒有做我們沒有去要求這件事情我想因為我們這個台灣母語的發展非常重要所以我希望文化部在一個禮拜內給我和所有的教文委員會一份說明報告我想知道這整個溝通流程"},{"start":421.619,"end":426.444,"text":"中間我們未來如何可以避免在金馬獎再度發生可以嗎可以啊好謝謝那再下一個就是還是一樣是母語喔就是在母語的部分呢我們現在在這個台灣童謠場就是今年有做一些巡迴場次那我也看到了這個"},{"start":441.218,"end":463.132,"text":"在文化部有發公文到經濟部還有教育部還有各縣市政府我覺得這是一件很不錯我們有在做但是我想了解那114年我們台語專場的規劃場次是什麼呢內容又是什麼呢因為我看了經費預算是一模一樣的所以我不是那麼確定說我們到底有沒有加強更多的場次呢因為我記得我今年的諮詢是說20場不夠啦所以可以做個說明嗎"},{"start":467.312,"end":467.392,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":485.606,"end":514.228,"text":"在最近一直支持他們在做各種表演好沒關係我想聽起來就是說現在沒有具體的規劃啦那是不是可以在兩個禮拜內提供給我一份說明報告好不好我們的具體規劃到底是什麼我還是希望可以看到白紙黑字的寫再來就是說在台語的校園推廣部分就是說因為在今年7月27號北區國家語言發展論壇是有小孩喔小孩表達意見說學校雖然有提供台語課程但是我每天在家講台語"},{"start":515.469,"end":536.067,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":536.287,"end":536.307,"text":" ﹝講台語﹞"},{"start":558.533,"end":577.071,"text":"再來還是台語的問題就是說在現在我們其實有很多的家長跟我們說他們的小孩子平常講台語生活語言的能力都OK了可是當他今天要進階像小孩很喜歡暴龍啊恐龍啊雷龍迅猛龍啊這是他很喜歡的東西衛星啊衛星啊太空的幻想世界啊"},{"start":577.591,"end":596.174,"text":"他對這件事情有興趣想要去了解的時候科博館大部分講到這些詞的時候都還是用華語那他們想要去找一下那我到底可以怎麼樣跟我小孩講的時候字典裡面也找不到我們是不是可以盡快來針對這些字呢有沒有一些科普的用字呢我們可以把它建錄在詞典裡面"},{"start":596.715,"end":618.763,"text":"然後接下來我們可以去做一些訓練讓這些臺語的小孩在學習進階的語文的時候呢自然科學的概念的時候呢他也可以真正用臺語來學因為當年的在日本時代當年的臺灣人就是用臺語來學習這些詞可以嗎這個部分可以在一個月內來做一些說明有份報告來給我說看我們要怎麼樣來處理這個問題"},{"start":620.786,"end":643.096,"text":"我們跟教育部來討論尤其是講自然科學這個詞彙我想是詞彙啦因為字典的部分啦字典的部分是不是可以來然後接下來就是下一個部分我們是不是可以針對一些科博館科教館這些單位我們也可以來做一些溝通跟說明我們大概要3個月內3個月嗎因為這個蠻複雜的3個月我們要來教育部科教館等等好嗎3個月"},{"start":644.176,"end":668.725,"text":"三個月那我我非常希望就是說因為金馬獎我希望這邊希望部長給我一個具體的承諾當金馬獎這一次一個月多以後我們要在辦金馬獎的時候我們真的可以看見任何不管使用台語的或是客語的原住民語的表演他下面都可以出現他們原本的政治可以嗎部長可以承諾我這件事嗎我來要求他們部長可以承諾我嗎我們可以做到嗎我們是主辦單位我們可以做到嗎應該做得到好謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時14分）謝謝主席。有請部長跟國家兒童未來館的主任。"],["主席：有請李部長跟主任。"],["李部長遠：委員好！"],["張委員雅琳：我們等一下主任好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：時間可以先暫停一下嗎？我們等一下主任。"],["主席：好，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好！主任好！因為今天早上葉元之委員有詢問關於國家未來兒童館做為兒童參與的形式，他有一些批評，因為剛剛主任好像沒有時間說明當時為什麼會用這種方式來設計，所以我給你一點時間，讓你說明一下當時為什麼會做這樣的規劃，可以嗎？"],["曾主任聰邦：謝謝委員，國家兒童未來館在籌建的過程中，不管是建築或是軟體的規劃上一直掌握一個原則，就是要for children、with children、by children，我們做所有的事情，基本上都一定要建築在兒童必須要認同我們現在設計的狀況下，我剛剛的解釋已經清楚的表達，當我們現階段已經完成建築的戶外遊戲場設計時，當時包含日本的團隊和建築師也都有來到這邊，把他們的設計馬上回饋給臺灣的兒童。臺灣兒童就用工作坊、用實作的方式來建立他們心中想要做的兒童遊戲場，然後再回饋給日本的建築師去修正我們的設計，其實這是一個非常良性的互動。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，我這樣聽起來，應該是設計師設計出一個設計圖，我們想要確認我們的兒童到底對這樣的設計有沒有什麼樣的建議，所以用一個檢測方式來蒐集兒童的意見，然後再回饋到這個設計裡面，讓未來這個設計可以更符合兒童的需求，我這樣解讀正確嗎？"],["曾主任聰邦：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我想問一下，我不知道部長跟主任有沒有去過華盛頓的國家兒童博物館？"],["曾主任聰邦：華盛頓沒有。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係。其實我今年有去華盛頓國家兒童博物館，然後我去看過他們場內的一些配置跟設計，其實它裡面有非常多鬆散素材。鬆散素材就是它不是一個既定的形式，可以讓大家去發展自己的創意，所以每一個人看見的事情可能都是相當不一樣的。所以我覺得每一個活動辦起來可能都會有人批評，也會有人非常滿意，我想跟部長和主任分享幾個回饋，這是我從辦理團隊的臉書上看到的，這是他們所蒐集到的使用者和家長的回饋，我希望可以平衡一下意見。","家長說：透過優秀領導師的帶領，我看到我孩子不同的面向，過程中我也發現自己似乎總是希望孩子以我所希望的方式做事，我忽略了孩子本身的可能性；第二，孩子覺得活動很好玩，媽媽們也覺得孩子們透過環境素材來合作和完成任務是很棒的學習，也讓媽媽知道孩子在外面的樣子。所以我覺得未來可以做一些說明，因為這種參與式的模式和這種鬆散素材的玩法對我們臺灣家長來說可能有點陌生，可是這個對於未來不管是新AI世代或是非常多的研究來講，創造力和跟人溝通以及解決問題的能力才是最重要的能力，我想這也是兒童未來館所賦予最重要的精神。","再來，第二個問題，主任可以請回，我要問部長。我剛剛有聽到部長回復前面委員有關「台語」跟「閩南語」的事情，我想要做個說明，簡單考一下部長，請問一下「台語」這個詞是什麼時候出現在臺灣歷史上的？"],["李部長遠：應該是在日治時代吧！"],["張委員雅琳：日治時代，好。"],["李部長遠：因為要區隔當時的國語是日語。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，沒錯。那請問一下，「閩南語」是什麼時候出現的呢？"],["李部長遠：「閩南語」可能滿後面的，因為我們早期講「閩南語」、「福建話」，其實語言本身在不同時期都有不同的……"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，我指的是它出現在臺灣。"],["李部長遠：「閩南語」可能很後面……"],["張委員雅琳：我跟部長講，是國民政府來臺之後才出現的名詞。其實這幾年我們一直在講轉型正義，原住民用自己族語的名字來取代當時他們必須要用的漢語名字，其實「台語」現在的作法就是找回自己原本的名字，我希望部長可以支持這樣的論述，因為它是後來被偷走它原本的名字。","所以轉型正義是非常非常的重要，其實剛剛前面也有委員提到……抱歉！我先拉回來講一下，因為台語非常重要，其實我7月就有質詢過部長，有關金曲獎使用火星文。7月3日我有質詢過部長，金曲獎的台語字幕沒有使用正字，當時我有跟部長說：拜託！可不可以跟作者溝通？如果他堅持一定要用他原本的作詞，那我們可以在下面把正字標籤出來，但是我在這次金鐘獎又再度看到了，沒有出現我們的正字。我想文化部是唯一在推台語的一個主責機關，這件事情我想知道到底發生了什麼事情，因為當時部長有承諾我不會在金馬獎跟金鐘獎再出現，我想知道中間過程到底溝通得怎麼樣，還是根本沒有去溝通？"],["李部長遠：有，我們也跟轉播單位三立談過這個問題，第一，當時取得他的歌詞就是這樣子，他們不能改它，因為他原來的創作……"],["張委員雅琳：同意，但是我們上次講的是下面可以加正字。"],["李部長遠：是，這個他們當時沒有做，然後認為那是一個傳播，希望更多人看懂……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想金鐘獎跟金馬獎，文化部應該都是主辦單位，你們應該是可以要求的，但看起來你們沒有去要求這件事情，因為我們臺灣母語的發展非常重要，所以我希望文化部在1個禮拜內給我和所有教文委員會一份說明報告，我想知道這整個溝通流程中，未來如何避免在金馬獎再度發生，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。下一個一樣還是母語，在母語的部分，我們現在的台語童謠專場，今年有做了一些巡迴場次，我也看到了文化部有發公文到經濟部、教育部，還有各縣市政府，我覺得這是一件很不錯的事，我們有在做。但是我想了解，114年我們台語專場的規劃場次是什麼呢？內容又是什麼呢？因為我看到經費、預算是一模一樣的，所以我不是那麼確定，到底有沒有加了更多的場次呢？記得我今年的質詢是說20場不夠，可以做個說明嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個部分是台語臺本身所做的活動，但是我們在明年的預算裡面會大量來做，這點請委員放心，我身邊有滿多用台語寫詩或者唱歌的朋友，他們實在很感謝我們文化部，最近一直在支持他們做各種表演，這一點……"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，聽起來現在沒有具體的規劃，是不是可以在兩個禮拜內提供給我一份書面報告，說明你們的具體規劃到底是什麼？"],["李部長遠：OK，好。"],["張委員雅琳：我還是希望可以看到白紙黑字寫出來。","再來，關於台語校園推廣的部分，在今年7月27號北區國家語言發展論壇有小孩表達意見：學校雖然有提供台語課程，但是我每天在家都講台語，現在的台語對我來說太簡單了，所以我就跑去選客語課，但我想問，學校課程能不能有更多選擇呢？像現在臺北市公館國小有一個台語進階班，關於這個進階班，我想請文化部跟教育部商議，可不可以盤點一下，可能也跟公館國小聯繫一下，到底現在這個課程大家的滿意度是怎麼樣，有沒有什麼需要改進的，我們是不是也了解一下需求，看能不能在其他的縣市也有一些學校一起來推廣，讓我們真正講台語的孩子還可以更進階的去學習這些台語的能力，這點可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：1個月內，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。","再來還是台語的問題，現在其實有很多的家長跟我們說，他們的小孩子平常講台語、生活語言的能力都OK了，可是當他今天要進階，像小孩很喜歡暴龍、恐龍、雷龍、迅猛龍、慧星、衛星、太空的幻想世界等等，這些是他們很喜歡的東西，當他們對這些件事情有興趣想要去了解，而科博館大部分講到這些詞的時候，都還是用華語。當他們想要去找一下，或者是到底可以怎麼樣跟小孩講，字典裡面也找不到，所以我們是不是可以儘快針對這些字讓它有一些科普的用字呢？可以把它建入在詞典裡面，然後接下來可以去做一些訓練，讓這些會台語的小孩，在學習進階自然科學概念時也可以真正用台語來學，因為在日本時代，當年的臺灣人就是用台語來學習這些字，可以嗎？這個部分請在1個月內做一些說明並提供一份報告給我，看看我們要怎麼樣來處理這個問題，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，我們跟教育部來討論，尤其是講到自然科學的詞彙。"],["張委員雅琳：是詞彙，字典的部分是不是可以這麼做呢？接著下一個部分就是針對一些科博館、科教館等這些單位，我們也可以來做一些溝通跟說明。"],["李部長遠：我們大概需要3個月。"],["張委員雅琳：3個月嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個滿複雜的。"],["張委員雅琳：3個月，好。"],["李部長遠：因為我們要找教育部科教館等等，3個月，好嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：好，3個月。金馬獎的部分，我希望部長給我一個具體的承諾，畢竟1個月多以後，你們又要再辦金馬獎，我們真的可以看見任何不管是使用臺語的、客語的、原住民語的表演，它下面都可以出現他們原本的正字，可以嗎？部長可以承諾我這件事嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，我來要求他們。"],["張委員雅琳：部長可以承諾我嗎？你們可以做到嗎？你們是主辦單位，可以做到嗎？"],["李部長遠：應該做得到。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"155957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d632caa458835705ecafbc85fd0f5e73d77e99cfeeb60987bc2f3c949769055490b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:10:44 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謝謝主席我先有請這個權重署署長跟戴耀群副局長謝謝許署長和副局長"},{"start":17.087,"end":40.316,"text":"好 謝謝齁 那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說"},{"start":40.996,"end":65.886,"text":"他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定他的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何"},{"start":67.738,"end":93.652,"text":"跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造"},{"start":94.933,"end":119.394,"text":"我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在"},{"start":120.815,"end":122.377,"text":"即使他有共同協作的行為,不代表他跟中國有關。」"},{"start":144.298,"end":154.43,"text":"所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼有沒有去做這件事"},{"start":157.429,"end":178.191,"text":"事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛海外訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛我們所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握"},{"start":178.852,"end":206.266,"text":"那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序一個科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清"},{"start":206.986,"end":236.292,"text":"我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做"},{"start":236.772,"end":238.154,"text":"這次封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息"},{"start":254.574,"end":274.032,"text":"這個講到其實刪除得非常的快所以就是而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到"},{"start":274.472,"end":293.044,"text":"而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色"},{"start":294.825,"end":320.841,"text":"就是今天的主題它是有提到這幾個那包含這個關鍵的物資的自主啦民生的物資啦還有醫療物資啦這是今天的主題嘛我們照為定的主題那裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊呢其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天交通部有來嘛"},{"start":323.317,"end":351.054,"text":"交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個他算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡"},{"start":352.194,"end":374.487,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的"},{"start":375.387,"end":395.654,"text":"包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟權動署有關就要盤點這一些事情因為我覺得一年有點"},{"start":396.474,"end":420.829,"text":"我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下"},{"start":423.01,"end":446.375,"text":"在明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即地去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度是的 謝謝委員基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個"},{"start":448.775,"end":469.403,"text":"整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好 謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資"},{"start":470.983,"end":488.794,"text":"伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶其實造成蠻大的困擾"},{"start":490.094,"end":518.708,"text":"台灣目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口台灣自己的廠商並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少那是不是可以請次長說明一下關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法"},{"start":519.028,"end":540.062,"text":"現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴"},{"start":540.822,"end":566.898,"text":"所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告"},{"start":567.978,"end":590.11,"text":"謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為止血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把止血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估"},{"start":590.43,"end":605.716,"text":"因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好"},{"start":605.916,"end":623.718,"text":"沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有他需要去盤點的,還有他需要去連結的部會"},{"start":625.76,"end":654.812,"text":"非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關"},{"start":655.532,"end":678.81,"text":"但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業"},{"start":683.933,"end":700.905,"text":"所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這一個是這是日本"},{"start":701.789,"end":718.375,"text":"他們去看這些他盤點完之後他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制計轉他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法"},{"start":718.895,"end":742.383,"text":"所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢"},{"start":743.163,"end":760.139,"text":"如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題"},{"start":763.863,"end":780.284,"text":"就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判"},{"start":781.185,"end":802.5,"text":"所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再折騰一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時10分）謝謝主席，我先請全動署署長，跟調查局副局長。謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：請署長和副局長。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多，最主要還是針對上次軍演的行動，因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰，所以我先問一小部分有關認知作戰的議題，然後待會再問到跟全動署有關的部分。一開始我要談的議題，我相信副局長應該可能也有看到NHK有追安洵外洩名單的事情，然後也有提到說他們怎麼去做認知作戰。我想先問一下，因為安洵的事件已經爆發一陣子了，當時局裡面掌握這件事情的時候，怎麼去認定它的真偽？真偽這件事情，因為它畢竟是個外洩的文件，你必須要驗證嘛，那日本的記者就跑了很多國家去驗證，其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的，我們中間其實有跟他們討論很多次，不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何？"],["孫副局長承一：跟委員報告，我們局裡面對認知作戰的相關訊息，事實上分三個部分來處理，第一個部分是訊息的蒐集；然後再來一些做研判；最後是有涉及假訊息或是一些偵訊的話，這一部分是由我們的資安處來處理，透過科學的程序來了解是不是有偽造。"],["沈委員伯洋：我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提，但是現在因為有時候外洩的文件太多，很難去驗證它的真偽，有時候半真半假，可能本來是真實的文件，他故意竄改一些地方又把它放上去，半真半假。"],["孫副局長承一：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為安洵事件算是一個重大的文件洩漏，所以要如何處理這件事情非常的重要，我只是問調查局關於這件事情的SOP，如果不方便在這邊講的話，我們可以在機密會議，或者說事後再來辦公室報告。"],["孫副局長承一：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：另外一個就是其中有提到印度移工這個案件，印度移工這個案件，那時候我們還在民間，我們就有發現其實很多都是用同樣的劇本，就是說它用抖音的影片或TikTok的影片，但即使他有共同的協作行為，不代表他跟中國有關，對不對？這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼，就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情，它的程序是什麼？有沒有去做這件事。"],["孫副局長承一：事實上訊息到處在流竄，很多訊息在流竄，我們的作法會針對幾個我們稱之為偵群，就是剛剛委員所談的真真假假並存的東西，對臺灣社會或是臺灣整個政府民心產生離間作用的相關訊息，我們會做掌握。那這一部分，到最後我們的判斷還是要透過一個法律的程序跟科技的程序來做，如果在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工製作的話，他違反相關的法令，我們會依法來處理。如果我們發覺到它是被加工製造，是虛偽不實的，我們也會透過新聞發布的方式來澄清。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意，第一個，當然它的內容不實，所以當時政府有出來澄清；第二個階段是，它到底跟中國有沒有關係，其實這是局裡面需要跟國人說明的；第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等的之類，然後再一次的驗證，這個可能跟中國的操作有關的時候，我覺得調查局可以出來說明，我們當時的研判是什麼，跟這一次有哪些謀合之處，希望國人以後能夠注意。我覺得這每一個層次，其實都要做。"],["孫副局長承一：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟這個NHK的報導也才剛出來，所以我覺得局裡面如果有一個回應的話，對於讓一般民眾了解，到底什麼叫做中國操作，我覺得會有幫助。"],["孫副局長承一：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：另外我想問，因為今天的主題是封鎖，這次的封鎖當然PTT上面有很多的假消息，這些假消息刪除得非常快，而且很多都是攝影機，有一些看起來是印表機，不過大部分都是攝影機的發文，攝影機當然不會發文，所以這很明顯是一個操作。但是在這邊我們講到封鎖這件事情，封鎖這件事情，第一個它不容易達成，今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到，而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行，尤其目前全球來講，大概有百分之八十的航線都會經過臺灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊，所以封鎖一定會對經濟造成很大的傷害。","如果我們今天真的要討論封鎖這件事情的話，我覺得以全動署的角色，今天我們召委定的主題有提到，包含關鍵物資的自主、民生物資，還有醫療物資，其中關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係，我晚一點會問，民生物資這部分其實應該是跟交通部有關係，因為它跟物流有關，當然跟農業部也有關，但因為農業部有相關的報告。請問今天交通部有來嗎？交通部有綜合規劃司司長，對不對？所以，是不是請交通部，或者全動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以，因為畢竟你們也有點類似像秘書處。我想問一下交通部，關於物流的攻擊這部分，因為這個在原本的全動架構，交通部算是一個主責單位，目前我們對於穩定物流的相關措施，大概進行到哪裡？"],["張司長垂龍：跟委員報告，剛剛委員有提到，早上國防部顧部長有把封鎖的定義講得很清楚，一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況，進入緊急狀況之後，根據全動署的作業規定，交通部會依據作業分類跟項目接受全動署的管制，包括陸、海、空所有動員的車輛都要在管制的情境下，接受指揮跟軍方協同工作，會達到委員您所關注的穩定物流的工作，特別是在民生的部分。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。因為我知道每年3月的時候，大概會定期跟全動署就這一些事情進行相關的盤點，但我覺得一年一次真的有點少，所以是不是可以請交通部在一個月內好不好，我覺得一個月可以，可不可以一個月內告訴我們，目前盤點的狀況如何？物流這件事情，物資運送這件事情，目前進展到什麼程度？因為這部分不在今天的報告裡面，今天比較多的是針對，譬如說衛福部門的相關物資，農業相關的物資，還有能源相關的，但物流這部分今天稍微比較缺乏，是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告，先讓我們知道一下，這樣明年3月的時候，我們也可以再立即的去盤點出來，到底這個年度做到什麼程度。"],["張司長垂龍：是的，謝謝委員。基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要回復全動署之外，我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施，包括這一次的COVID，我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導，對於關鍵設施整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配，我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本人力，這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中，特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝司長。醫療物資這個部分，其實我們今天看到的報告有蠻多都有提到醫療物資，當然醫療物資也會有運送上的問題，不過這邊我想小小提一下有關於供應鏈的安全。去年我去烏克蘭的時候，我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情，因為止血帶真的很缺，所以他們就要從各國進口，當然就是中國製造的止血帶，其實造成蠻大的困擾。臺灣目前的狀況就是，我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口，其實止血帶的製造並不需要很高的技術，但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少。所以，是不是可以請次長說明一下，關於這個部分，我們在供應鏈的安全上，有沒有可能，不管是輔導還是其他等等的方式，讓止血帶能夠比較……我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造，對不對？但有沒有什麼更好的方法？"],["林次長靜儀：先跟委員報告，我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材，尤其是一些關鍵的衛材，我們大概都沒有從中國進口。止血帶這個部分，過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理，因為它其實是前端到院前的部分，國內有一些廠商有生產，但是它的規格，可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格，當然，我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴。所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估，看是不是要用一個專案，或者是另外用一筆預算直接去採購，因為這個部分，目前以衛福部這邊來講，我們供應的，不論是健保的藥材等等，止血帶都不在這個系統裡面。那當然也跟委員補充報告就是，在相關的血液、血品供應的部分，如果是在重大災難或戰爭的過程中，我們目前在準備的，事實上是自己國血國用這個部分。以上跟委員報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。一個小問題，我現在突然又想到，就是說，因為止血帶這個當然有供應鏈安全的問題，另外有一個，就是我看到國外有一些人，假設以後盤點認為說需要的話，他們會把止血帶放在AED附近，那我不知道臺灣適不適合這樣，那是不是也可以針對這一點，如果說這個是需要，也在供應鏈安全之內，以後要怎樣易於取得，這件事情是不是到最後也可以稍微評估一下？"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分跟委員報告，就是說，衛福部這邊有一個處理，叫到院前急救，那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多，不過到院前的部分，很多是消防署這邊的業務，那我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估，好不好？"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題。那再告訴我們。"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，那接下來，物流的部分我們今天先不談，我聽到馬委員今天有提到全動署的定位，那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了，大家可以看到，這個就是目前我們全動署的業務，還有需要去盤點的，還有要去連結的部會，非常非常多，如果只是按照原本的全動室那種，是一定做不到這件事情，所以我反而持相反的意見，全動署應該還要再往上升級才對，不然的話，它要怎麼去協調那麼多內政等等的業務？而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖，封鎖之後可能又會有假消息，又會造成民心的動盪。左下角這個其實更重要的是，第一個，我們的財源在哪裡？我們的財力動員，這跟財政部有關，我們的精神動員跟教育部有關，但我們可以看到現在，反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項，或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候，反而會遭到滿多委員的反彈。所以我在這邊還是要強調一下，我認為這個是重要的，但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關，比較常被忽略的。","因為今天時間的因素，就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略是從2019開始，他們先會去盤點，那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業，所以盤點哪一些是關鍵的產業，需要被保護的產業，這個臺灣大概已經做了，但是保護跟育成這兩件事情，可能還是要全動署去拉著經濟部、國發會跟國科會來做，不然的話，就會變成一個結果。我給大家看一下，日本他們去盤點所有外國可能竊取的技術，這些可能透過留學生、千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制技轉來竊取，他們把這些全部盤點出來，而且特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法，部會提出相關的修法，提出相關的修法之後，他們就通過了這些法律。從2019年到現在，他們已經通過無數的法律，都是在保護這些經濟安全，臺灣有一些是用行政命令做，但顯然不太夠，所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會，一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善，也可以參考日本的內容。其實我都有整理，所以如果需要的話，辦公室都可以提供。","但我最後要提到一件事情，就是關於國科會，今天國科會來的是南部科學園區的副局長，應該不用上來，應該沒什麼關係，因為這跟你沒有直接的關係，但回去跟國科會講一下，就是這邊在說台積電設廠，這其實是一個言論紀律的問題，就是說，不管我們現在要輔導任何的產業，我們經濟安全要怎麼做，這本來就是一個正確的方向，但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關，因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判，所以我希望提醒一下國科會，甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下為什麼會出現這樣的一個事情，這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口，所以我希望能夠再責成一下。我知道全動署其實非常辛苦，人數根本就不夠，但是業務實在太多了，但是拜託提醒國科會一下，不要有這種錯誤發生。"],["白署長捷隆：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，因為時間到了，我沒辦法再問下去，有點可惜。謝謝。"],["白署長捷隆：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"155956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63b2e8b3f66593eff72a5f3e270b9db71ee99cfeeb60987bc220f50e1797e587f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:09:26 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現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有"},{"start":161.778,"end":177.31,"text":"法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場"},{"start":188.601,"end":212.698,"text":"所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公"},{"start":213.539,"end":240.058,"text":"要讓司法改革往前走 民進黨執政之後 獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議 民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法 我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力 當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法 來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化"},{"start":241.397,"end":267.093,"text":"民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁"},{"start":267.913,"end":281.518,"text":"所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛 對不對"},{"start":282.771,"end":308.519,"text":"當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁"},{"start":309.864,"end":333.614,"text":"司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年"},{"start":339.796,"end":358.989,"text":"而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調"},{"start":363.044,"end":384.923,"text":"9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會在座的一次民調有信心又回到47"},{"start":387.93,"end":395.64,"text":"但是我要說為什麼人民對於司法的公信力這樣起起伏伏破口在哪裡下一頁"},{"start":397.134,"end":423.545,"text":"偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大"},{"start":424.949,"end":441.423,"text":"最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力"},{"start":443.175,"end":463.556,"text":"不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些偵查的內容程序的不是只有剪掉臉"},{"start":465.418,"end":466.038,"text":"全部都歸給你們來承認太不公平"},{"start":482.745,"end":482.985,"text":"所以呢 下一頁"},{"start":513.061,"end":539.891,"text":"司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道次﹖下一頁針對臨北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白﹖國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢"},{"start":541.605,"end":563.663,"text":"來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的"},{"start":569.795,"end":571.917,"text":"黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛對不對"},{"start":579.949,"end":584.891,"text":"如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的"},{"start":608.53,"end":626.396,"text":"就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來牛頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等"},{"start":627.506,"end":641.9,"text":"然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊這就是一個鐵證啊黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開政治力來介入司法最糟的負面案例不是嗎在下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊"},{"start":648.467,"end":650.808,"text":"任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中"},{"start":678.311,"end":683.16,"text":"這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?"},{"start":687.048,"end":708.033,"text":"在整個一個偵辦犯罪能夠一個有一個乾淨的一個純淨的空間好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案"},{"start":713.607,"end":733.862,"text":"來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係"},{"start":736.147,"end":763.921,"text":"當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議部長針對這件事情這個是我們在記國家的司法權的一個行使不容許嘛所以現在我們的司法面對的就是國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外"},{"start":765.001,"end":765.901,"text":"這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦好 謝謝時間到 謝謝謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":873,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時9分）謝謝主席，請部長。誰在摧毀司法的公信力？誰在摧毀司法的公信力？從今天的質詢現場，我們看得非常清楚，讓政治力介入司法偵辦，讓政治力假藉著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討，事實上是遂行對於個案進行政治攻防的場域。就在今天，此時此刻的司法法制委員會，就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場。","我覺得這一屆的立法院，素質真是無比之低！這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊！抱歉，我是司法法制委員會的，我真的要承認，這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的，為什麼？因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台，都在假藉公器介入個案，都在討論個案。如果今天要討論偵查不公開，我們就制度面來談，可以把制度做得更好，可是我剛剛坐在台下，真的是不忍卒睹，有委員公然針對個案，今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成柯文哲、冷錢包、橘子，可以這樣嗎？請講制度，不要講個案，政治力就是摧毀司法信任，政客的介入就是偵查不公開的最大破口。立法院要自我課責，自我檢討，真的是讓人忍無可忍。","民進黨執政之後，面對司法改革，我們知道要趕快來趕進度，因為我從小到大就聽過一句話──法院是國民黨開的──請問部長，法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候、誰講的？那個歷史現場你有印象嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我忘掉了，那個是很久以前有……"],["吳委員思瑤：法院是國民黨開的，這句話是民國84年7月國民黨中央黨部秘書長許水德在安撫國民黨籍涉入賄選的同志不用怕，法院是執政黨開的，法院是國民黨開的，你們賄選沒關係，不用怕。民國84年7月，這個是歷史現場。因為這樣子政治介入司法，讓臺灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公的這種陰霾。我們想要去改變它，我們想要去洗刷它，這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的，就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話，我們現在加倍努力，要洗刷這種司法不公，要讓司法改革往前走。","民進黨執政之後，獲得政權之後，民進黨前前後後開了四十多場司法改革國是會議。為了改革司法，我們建立了國民法官的制度，也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力；非常遺憾的是，在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法，來癱瘓我們好不容易逐步改進、改良的憲法審查法庭化。民進黨執政之後，我們推動轉型正義，去平撫高達六千多件，非常多司法不公的案件，這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公，所進行的改革。我們也許做得不夠，沒有辦法一步到位，但我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任。","偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正，其實也是民進黨執政後，召開四十多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程。當然，我要說做得不夠好，我們來檢討，否則如果有任何消息的走漏，今天就成為立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案，繼續用政治力來摧毀司法。如果偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話，司法改革就真的永無寧日。我是語重心長！","司改漸入佳境。我剛剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的，司法不公的，這種負面印象。司法院2023年公布近十年民眾對於法官信任的程度，好不容易慢慢爬升，十年來，國人對司法的信任來到58.7%，成長了14%，為了這14%，我們努力了十年；而不信任度從49.9降到34.7，降了15%，也是我們努力一點一滴改，去匯聚的成果。","現在因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件，我們看民間單位在這段時間所做的新民調─臺灣民意基金會9月份的民調，對司法沒信心的比例，居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易來到五成九的司法信任度，現在又掉下來了，沒信心的部分來到四成九；同一個基金會10月份再做的一次民調，有信心又回到47%。為什麼人民對於司法公信力這樣起起伏伏？破口在哪裡？偵查不公開的壓力破口──當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討，可能有從檢調內部，當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的，我們自我課責，自我要求，自我檢視；但是媒體基於社會的公知權，他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件，這是他們的職責，但是偵查不公開真正最大、最猛、最可怕的壓力破口就是政治力。您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：尊重委員的說法。"],["吳委員思瑤：剛剛有人一直在逼問你，針對個案回答，你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有莫大的壓力。"],["吳委員思瑤：這就是政治力……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過要跟委員報告，我對我們的偵查團隊是有信心的，我們不認為我們有洩密，所以我在這邊可以很有信心的去跟委員報告，因為可以接觸到這些偵查內容、程序的，不是只有檢調人員……"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：包括被告、證人，當然第六條裡面有些被告等等，其他沒有規範當有洩密罪的這些犯罪的規範主體的，有可能會講出去，所以我們在……"],["吳委員思瑤：全部都歸給你們來承擔，太不公平！"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且媒體很多的報導，可能是捕風捉影─他得到的是不是有一個？或是問他一句話，就整個衍生出很多的東西，因為他們也會做功課嘛！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您可以管理、督導的，是我們檢調同仁─司法工作者……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我會約束他們。"],["吳委員思瑤：其他有太多可能洩密的壓力破口，你沒有辦法管得到！"],["鄭部長銘謙：包括提審、羈押程序的那一段，我沒辦法處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。所以，司法信任度積累破功，就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡！國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會，對於檢調辦案說三道四；針對Linbay好油自導自演的雞蛋案，藍白─國民黨也好，民眾黨也好，在偵查期間無的放矢來影響辦案，這是政治力！","司法破功的政治力，我們來看看偵查不公開！黃國昌委員在對小草宣講的時候，公然針對政治獻金案說：調查局的人憑什麼問周榆修（民眾黨秘書長），為什麼要退出民進黨？這是誰洩漏的？黃國昌怎麼知道周榆修被問了什麼？這就是你剛說的，被告或當事人被約談，自己去講的嘛！對不對？如果就黃國昌所說的，調查局的人問周榆修為什麼退出民進黨？錯了，錯了，其實是在逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清─辦案的人問的是，周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨，從來沒有問他，你何時退出民進黨。如果用這個個案、這個狀況來講，請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容？就是周榆修本人說給黃國昌立委聽，然後黃國昌立委牛頭不對馬嘴，拿來攻擊檢調人員。這就是一個現實的例子，就是你剛剛解釋很久，偵查不公開，有消息走漏，可能是來自於這些當事人等，然後還被惡意拿來扭曲，這就是一個鐵證啊！黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開？你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開、政治力介入司法最糟的負面案例，不是嗎？","民眾黨的委員請自制啊！針對單一個案，你可以關心柯文哲，為他捍衛清白，沒有問題！你們有絕對的權利去捍衛清白。但是去操縱民粹、動員，包括黃國昌說柯文哲的清白是臺灣人民的未來，您認同這句話嗎？涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中，這樣子的說法您同意嗎？是不是影響司法辦案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們希望在整個偵辦犯罪能夠有一個乾淨、純淨的空間。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我的時間到了。最後一頁，其實我很多頁沒得講。我覺得非常遺憾，你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力，更重要的是連對岸都來對我們臺灣的司法施以壓力了。這是國台辦的新聞稿，他們針對單一個案來批判我們的檢調辦案。請問中國有臺灣治理的統轄權、管轄權嗎？中國憑什麼對臺灣的司法單一個案來說三道四？還說這是綠色恐怖，還說這是賴清德在追殺不支持臺獨的人士？這個個案京華城案跟臺獨有什麼關係？當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案發這種新聞稿、做這種聲明，請問你是不是要抗議？部長，針對這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是我們基於國家司法權的行使，不容他人……"],["吳委員思瑤：不容許嘛！所以現在我們的司法面對的就是，國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極，用單一個案來鬥臭司法，而在境外也有協力者一起來鬥臭司法，中國也可以把臺灣的司法查弊來搞認知作戰，這就是我們共同面對的困難，後面部分我就沒有辦法提了。偵查不公開我們還是想方設法盡量做，如果有任何個案涉及檢調內部可能的洩漏，該查就查，該辦就辦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果有這種的具體事證，我們會嚴辦。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，時間到。"],["主席：部長，等一下我質詢的時候，我會跟你談論什麼叫干涉個案。你剛剛在那邊胡說八道！等一下我們再來講。部長請回。","我們現在先處理臨時提案。請宣讀。","案由：","偵查不公開作業辦法於108年新增第11條，規範全國各地檢署及警政署、調查局、廉政署，要組成偵查不公開檢討小組，並定期公布檢討報告以及相關查辦及處分情形之資料。","同辦法第10條第5項更明定各機關應設置適當處所作為媒體採訪地點，並應劃定採訪禁制區。","經查，自108年7月起迄至112年底，列入全國各地檢察署之新聞檢討總件數共7,255件，年平均數計1,612件，實際列入檢討件數382件，而今（113）年上半年，新聞檢討件數已達2,035件，實際列入檢討391件，然5年來，均無任何一位檢察署內部人員受到查處。","復查，從108年爆發之潤寅涉嫌詐貸案、109年之立委涉嫌集體收賄案、111年高虹安涉嫌貪瀆案、112年ACE王牌交易所涉嫌詐欺案、今年鄭文燦涉嫌貪瀆案等，均不乏有媒體「依據知情人士透漏」報導搜索、偵訊細節，甚或揭露手機對話內容，更有搜索現場畫面外洩等情形，此類資訊均掌握在司法偵查機關，衡情，若非傳遞訊息予媒體，媒體應難以獲悉。","再查，近期因特定媒體屢屢以「知情人士指出」為由，針對特定案情做系列報導，遭外界戲稱「偵查大公開」，經台灣民意基金會9月民調顯示有超過500萬人認為有不公平審判情形，並經同一基金會於10月最新民調顯示，上漲約莫達660萬人認為審判不公平，已重創司法威信。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求法務部於兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告，內容應併含：","1.研議案件「起訴後」，得公開之新聞檢討報告項目，適度揭露檢討過程、結論（不僅僅是檢討件數、處分人次，還有如何避免再度發生），非僅單純之統計數字。始能澄清檢討之力度，讓國人看到法務部捍衛程序正義之魄力與決心，並還給檢察官乾淨的司法環境。","2.研議全國各地檢及所屬偵查機關，強化「適法性監督」，針對「已偵結」之案件，除各機關檢討小組外，建立高等檢察署之覆核機制。包括各偵查機關檢討小組審議案件時，若所檢討之案件有陳情人（檢舉人），研議是否請陳情人或所委任之人到會陳述意見之機會，並將審議結果及理由以書面告知。","3.指定由「天下第一檢」美譽之臺灣臺北地方檢察署做為貫徹「偵查不公開」制度之示範機關，劃設採訪禁制區，落實門禁，將拜訪之外界人士，包括媒體記者進出管制區登記，並設記者接待室，獨立於檢察官辦公空間處所，及建立其他防範違反偵查不公開制度之具體措施。再請全國各檢察署檢察長檢討後，由立法院司法及法制委員會擇期考察。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　羅智強"],["主席：請問各位委員，就臨時提案的部分有沒有要補充說明？文字部分有跟機關溝通過了。好，請說。"],["沈委員發惠：文字有做過修改，我是可以接受，但是在第4段一一點名個案，我是覺得是不是可以修改？"],["主席：哪一個？"],["沈委員發惠：第4段：「復查，從108年爆發……」這些案子，我是覺得在臨時提案裡面是不是不要去指明哪一些個案比較好？如果說：「經查，自108年起諸多重大案件……」，以這樣子的方式來呈現？你在這裡把高虹安等人的名字寫上去，我覺得不厚道。我們提案如果不是必要的文字，我是希望能夠把這些個案的名稱做一些修改。"],["主席：請問其他委員有沒有什麼意見？"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、召委也是檢察官出身的，我們覺得最後要求的做法經過這樣的修改，我們是可以接受。但是你在底下的3點：「內容應併含：……3.指定由『天下第一檢』美譽之臺灣臺北地方……」，主席將心比心，所謂的美譽跟第一檢，或直接指明哪一個檢察署，其實我們可以要求法務部擇定地方檢察署來落實這個案子，是不是這樣比較……我們覺得比較可以……"],["主席：跟鍾召委報告一下，因為法務部已經講過很多次會這麼做了，但是永遠都沒有成果出來。因為北檢目前是重大案子最多的地方，所以我們才會希望由北檢來作為示範的地檢署，讓別的地檢署可以跟著一起做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解。因為過去本席在關心保單解約償債的問題，我們也知道北檢跟士林地檢他們都承受了相當大的案量。考察各地方法院，我們都能夠體恤臺北地方法院跟士林地方法院民事執行處這樣的壓力，我們去分散。如果用這個角度來考量，士林地方檢察署相對於北檢是否會是更適切的一個地方？"],["主席：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是參考啦！因為我們要考量到這些。沒有錯！提案人認為重中之重，最多的、媒體最集中的，我們就先來做。但是某個角度上來講，要考量到如果有其他比較有能力落實具體做好，而且能避免偵查不公開在媒體的新聞報導之下被破功的，我們是不是有這個考量？建請提案人可以參酌。"],["主席：因為我也是提案人，所以我跟各位委員報告一下。剛剛鍾召委有提到北檢確實業務量非常重，但是以我自己的檢察經驗，能夠落實這樣子，反而是降低檢察官的工作量，他不需要再去應付很多跑到辦公室的記者，這個確實是可以讓工作單純。當然我是以我自己的工作經驗去做這樣的思考，目前當然北檢還是重大案件比較多的地方。","請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝召委。我這樣建議，結論我遵照大家的意思，但是從第4段：「復查，從108年……」這一整段我建議把它給刪除掉；然後「併含：……3.指定由『天下第一檢』美譽的……」，我覺得這些都是贅語。我之所以講第4段要刪掉的原因是，我不只一次在司法法制委員會提出來，偵查不公開不是這幾年才發生的事，從以前我對這個就很感冒，不管是誰執政，我覺得都不應該去違背。因為第一個，法有明文；第二個，整個法務部三申五令要求偵查機關，你掌握有更高的偵查訊息，你有這樣一個優越的地位，不應該隨便去揭露。這個偵查主體裡面幾乎大家都是學有專精的，都是專業人士，要比外界更知道這樣的分寸。所以我針對的是沒有必要去講到從108年開始這幾年，我是覺得整段都劃掉，這個是長期以來就存在。這是第一個請大家做一個參考。","第二個，要指定臺北地檢署就臺北地檢署啦！不要去說什麼它是「天下第一檢」。臺北地檢署當然素質很高啊！也很累啊！沒有錯啊！可是我們在立法院的文字裡面，我們要的話，就直接做成決議，就由臺北地檢署當示範機關，我沒意見，但是整段還要刻意……現在這個案子不是就是臺北地檢署在偵辦嗎？它本身又是當事人啊！"],["主席：跟莊委員報告，我主要是看到，因為這一次的北檢王檢察長上任的時候，他的宣誓裡面其中一個就是要落實偵查不公開。是因為他有特別宣誓，我才把它加進來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委，我懂你的意思，你都不用聽那些啦！我們都不用聽那些，我們要的都是看結果啦！偵查不公開我們都已經講了多少年了。今天早上我都很含蓄耶！媽媽嘴那個案子當年你也是屬於偵查的團隊。我只是講結論而已，你知道嗎？"],["主席：沒有啦！你們弄錯了啦！莊委員，剛剛你剛講那個，我想就讓你講沒關係。其實當年弄錯的檢察官是別人，我是進去當救援投手……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["主席：所以你們不要故意混在一起！"],["莊委員瑞雄：No，No，No，那你又錯了！"],["主席：被調查的也是另一位檢察官，你又扯我幹什麼！"],["莊委員瑞雄：那你又錯了！"],["主席：好啦！隨便你啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的質詢裡面沒有一句話涉及到污衊你，不要那麼緊張好不好？"],["主席：好啦！那我再跟你報告一下，為什麼我們會說北檢，而不是要求全國？就是因為我們認為說全國這樣子太辛苦了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是！北檢我沒意見，我的意思就是說我們立法院的文字不用刻意去講說指定由「天下第一檢」，講這一些？它搞不好是天下第二檢啊！"],["主席：好，沒問題，這個是檢察官內部的說法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：搞不好士林地檢署認為它才是第一啊！搞不好我們屏東地檢署說我才是天下第一檢啊！對不對？"],["主席：好，謝謝莊委員，這是檢察官內部的說法，沒關係。我剛剛有聽到莊委員的兩項建議，跟沈委員的其中一項是一樣。","請沈委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：我簡單的意見，因為畢竟我不是本會委員，所以我想說先留個紀錄。第一個，我贊成剛剛莊委員講的，在第4段說這個是哪一些案件，其實這個沒有什麼必要啦！我覺得是可以拿掉。不然的話，鄭文燦這個案件，說真的，其實我看在座也有蠻多人發表過意見。","第二個，我要提到的就是，因為偵查不公開，今年還是去年的時候有幾位檢察官有寫過博士論文，裡面常提到媒體之所以能夠取得資訊，除了第3點這邊提到的，就是媒體直接跟檢察官接觸之外，有很多的情形都有透過中間人。中間人千千百百種，法警其實也是其中一種。所以如果未來真的要針對這個做規範的話，可能我覺得針對中間人做規範是還蠻重要的。我想說先留個紀錄，因為這個再加上去，今天這個臨時提案應該就討論不完了。","第二個，我覺得很重要的就是，我看到之前鄭文燦的案件在3個月以前的時候，我記得吳宗憲召委也有在媒體上發言，對不對？所以就是已經離開的人，其實照理他也會在這一個規範裡面。所以如果是這個樣子的話，這一些到底有誰，可能未來需要做一個盤點。給一個參考，先這樣子，謝謝。"],["主席：好，了解，我懂這個意思。因為偵查不公開主要是起訴前，所以我說這部分我們可能到時候再精進一下，看文字部分要怎麼去修正。","因為時間的關係，我們是不是請法務部按照剛剛各位委員的建議，提出一個修正的文字？就我們現在這個臨時提案部分看要怎麼樣，我們再跟助理那邊去做一下討論，然後提出一個雙方都可以接受……"],["沈委員發惠：我想不用了，我想這邊就……因為主席是提案人……"],["主席：直接處理嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：對，直接處理。我們就把第4段整段刪掉，看你們大家覺得有沒有意見，或是要怎麼修改文字？直接處理。"],["主席：第4段整段刪掉是什麼意思？"],["鍾委員佳濱：不用提到個案。"],["主席：個案的部分？我覺得這個沒問題，只要有個案的部分，就是按照剛剛沈委員的意見，就是說因為近年來有多件……"],["沈委員發惠：諸多案件。"],["主席：這個OK。"],["翁委員曉玲：幾位委員的建議就是認為第4段不要把具體個案詳列出來，我們的重點是在於要建立示範區，所以第4段就改成：「復查，從108年起有諸多重大刑事案件……均不乏有媒體」等等，就是這樣修。"],["主席：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後在最後建議的第3點，大家認為「由『天下第一檢』美譽」這幾個字寫得不是很好，其實它就是嘲諷的意味嘛！我也可以同意把這幾個字刪掉，就直接指定臺灣臺北地檢署作為偵查不公開的示範機關。是不是按照我們的意思？"],["主席：好，那是不是就依照各位委員的這個方式？"],["沈委員發惠：可以，同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我很少同意翁曉玲講的話，今天完全同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：我也很少同意你們說的，但是我想我們的重點在於要建立一個示範機關，好不好？"],["主席：好，那我們就依剛剛各位委員的高見辦理。","麻煩就再宣告一次。","臨時提案第4點修正為：「復查，近年諸多重大刑事案件均不乏有媒體「依據知情人士透漏」報導搜索、偵訊細節，甚或揭露手機對話內容，更有搜索現場畫面外洩等情形，此類資訊均掌握在司法偵查機關，衡情，若非傳遞訊息予媒體，媒體應難以獲悉。」併含第3點修正為：「指定臺灣臺北地方檢察署做為貫徹『偵查不公開』制度之示範機關」其餘相同。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　羅智強"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們是不是就按照修正後的提案通過？謝謝各位。","下一位請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。翁曉玲委員詢答完畢之後，因為快12點了，我們就休息5分鐘，再繼續進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},{"id":"155955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63552259763a3d44448446428ab222207fe99cfeeb60987bc2dd14c04eb8ab3b375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:10:22 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end":712.366,"text":"所以我建議這個是你參考一下啦因為畢竟你是董事長不是我是董事長所以這些問題一個公司就是公司啦我把你改字叫公司我很支持讓臺鐵變成公司公司就是公司而公司的方向是什麼公司角色是什麼跟過去公務同仁不大一樣所以我的意思是要這樣來思考臺鐵才會有未來好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時10分）特別謝謝主席。請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺鐵公司杜董事長。"],["主席：請杜董事長。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。兩位早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下臺鐵公司營業項目的收支概況，簡單講就是臺鐵公司的財務狀況。杜董事長，看起來，你們的預估是今年淨利虧74億元，是嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：明年還是虧？"],["杜董事長微：對，明年還是。"],["蔡委員其昌：杜董事長，在這個財務狀況裡面，你認為虧損主要來自於哪裡？"],["杜董事長微：如果以帳面價值來看、就是會計帳的話……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，會計帳。"],["杜董事長微：主要的原因是折舊很龐大。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，如果是折舊的話，邏輯上折舊攤提是一定要的啦！","那以這樣來看，最主要的折舊還是來自運輸本業？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：是嘛！那在其他方面，包括土地資產的開發、包括像便當這種商品在內，其他部門的營業狀況怎麼樣？"],["杜董事長微：其他部門的營業狀況就比較沒有受到折舊的影響。"],["蔡委員其昌：不，我指的是虧損還是獲利？"],["杜董事長微：獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：土地開發也獲利？"],["杜董事長微：土地開發也獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：所有商品也獲利？"],["杜董事長微：商品也獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，只有本業虧損，其他都賺錢？"],["杜董事長微：大體上是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：那還有什麼部門是你覺得有機會賺錢的？"],["杜董事長微：有機會可以賺錢的其實都有啦！但是主要可以不受折舊影響而賺錢的話，如果可以切開來看的話，是資產開發。"],["蔡委員其昌：不，應該沒有人不算折舊啦！否則公司大概就太好經營了，折舊一定要算嘛！其實我主要是要問，今年會虧74億元、明年預估虧87億元，那麼請問董事長，針對每一個部門的KPI，也就是每一個部門的營業目標，你有請同仁們提出嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["蔡委員其昌：有喔！那這87億元虧損你都覺得合理？每一個部門提出之後，你都覺得合理，所以你估算出這個數字嘛！對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那本席要求你，包括每一個部門怎麼算，可不可以提供給本席？"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：可以啦！"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。","對於臺鐵公司來講，立法院就像公司的監察人，我們很想知道每一個部門怎麼看待明年的營業。你們現在是公司，既然是公司，邏輯上就不要再吃大鍋飯，所以每一個部門都應該有目標嘛！有目標之後，我們以目標方式監督，我覺得這樣對臺鐵公司才合理啦！不然大家來到立法院，只挑一個點就開始罵、開始批評，明年又換新的，我認為這樣沒有辦法系統性地監督臺鐵啊！我覺得應該是你們有KPI讓我看，明年我就按照你們的KPI追蹤、要求這些目標達成嘛！我認為這樣對臺鐵監理才是正確嘛！","第二，有一些東西雖然賺錢，但董事長會不會覺得它賺太少？我舉個例子，剛剛林俊憲委員好像也有提到……"],["陳部長世凱：便當。"],["杜董事長微：便當。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺鐵便當去年營業額是七億多元，對不對？那去年賺了多少錢？"],["杜董事長微：一億多元。"],["蔡委員其昌：七億元賺一億元啦！"],["杜董事長微：對，獲利差不多十幾個百分點。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。那比較起其他餐飲、就是類似餐飲來講，你們的營業利益率有贏過人家嗎？"],["杜董事長微：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有？還是沒有嘛！所以我覺得，如果跟同業比，臺鐵的營業利益率相對低，那就應該有精進的空間，表示營業額7億元雖然不錯，但是一定是管銷費用或什麼費用比人家高，所以營業利益率才會比別人低嘛！這個邏輯你懂嘛！所以應該用這樣的方式讓臺鐵公司一個部門、一個部門檢討。像土地開發，我覺得臺鐵土地很多嘛！應該想辦法檢討啦！臺鐵也不只有土地，我們不純粹在講土地的炒作、開發，不是這個！而是土地怎麼運營跟管理。包括場站也一樣，我剛剛聽到陳素月委員提到她的二林車站很重要，對不對？它也是古蹟啊！"],["杜董事長微：是二水。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席針對日南火車站，過去也一直跟你們爭取，還從觀光局要錢修復古蹟、日南車站周邊。然後，我講了很多年，臺鐵公司終於同意，讓我爭取了大概五、六千萬元有啦！要開始對古蹟本體進行維護，對不對？董事長，這麼多屬於古蹟本體的車站，不久之後只要沒被拆掉，統統是古蹟，臺鐵公司若花錢修理，譬如說日南車站，周邊不要算，因為周邊相關經費是我從觀光署要來的嘛！但是對於本體，你們就要花五、六千萬元整修了，對你們來講，這是投入資產運維或投入資產活化，那整修完之後怎麼獲利？對這些車站投入之後，除了對古蹟的保存之外，你們是公司欸！不是交通部欸！連國發會對交通部都要算回收、回報率啊！那你們作為公司，對於這些投入更應該這樣計算嘛！所以臺鐵公司在修復古蹟的同時也應該試想怎麼運維古蹟，讓臺鐵公司有現金流進來。"],["杜董事長微：是，要有再利用的計畫。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。而我一直很擔心，因為到現在為止都沒有看到嘛！每一個人都在問他們的古蹟什麼時候修復，我也一樣啊！日南車站流標4次，今天要開第五次標嘛！"],["杜董事長微：對，已經開了。"],["蔡委員其昌：流標了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，有一家……"],["蔡委員其昌：標了？"],["杜董事長微：我們下個月就會完成評選。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，OK。不要再流標了啦！臺鐵同仁都很辛苦，每次臺鐵同仁回復本席辦公室，都說同仁很努力了。我從來沒有否定你們的努力啦！但是努力若沒有效果，就叫做有心無力啊！這是悲劇嘛！必須有心有力、要把問題解決啦！不能光講同仁很努力。我也知道同仁很努力，但是沒方法、事情沒辦法完成，就叫做只有心做好，但沒有能力把它完成嘛！所以有心無力、有力無心都不行，都解決不了問題啦！","回過頭來，我希望看到的是臺鐵怎麼活化。臺鐵為古蹟整修花那麼多錢、每一個站都要修、每一個站都要維護，那麼它對臺鐵公司未來營收的幫忙是什麼？我隨便舉個例子，你們現在開始改裝海風號，就是把莒光號加以裝扮改為海風號，還有一個山嵐號，對不對？這些要跑哪裡我是不知道，但是我馬上想到的是我每次要去看這些古蹟，其實都沒有一臺很棒的車子。譬如說在假日、禮拜六、禮拜天，你們也可以打造一列臺鐵的什麼號，專門跑古蹟，也就是禮拜六、禮拜天就專門載我跑海線古蹟嘛！在禮拜六、禮拜天，主力運輸的遊客一定相對少，因為上班、上學旅客沒有搭車嘛！而你們有古蹟，這時候就可以去做嘛！對於跑古蹟的車子，你們就想一個很響亮的名字、取一個號，把莒光號加以改裝嘛！如果用莒光號去開，大家會覺得旅遊的樂趣沒有啦！但重新改裝過後，大家都會覺得很好啦！再來，對於跑古蹟列車，立法院不會審你們的票價啊！古蹟號要收多少錢，立法院不會說不行，因為我們在乎的是每天民眾上下班、上下學的那個票價，若你們要漲價，我們就會先問績效改了沒。如果是專為遊客、為旅遊而開的票價訂很高，就是基於市場機制嘛！這就是我一直在提的，我雖然沒有去看到這些站，但我很贊成你去維護這些站，我很支持、我不是反對喔！可是，這些站跟這家公司的關係是什麼？這點你要去想啊！便當賣得好，有沒有可能再賣其他的、新商品的開發如何？你們現在是公司嘛！所以大家在談你的薪水啊！說實在話，對我來講，你們只要賺錢就好，包括你自己，或者真的要能從民間挖角，讓臺鐵公司起死回生。總之，你要有突破點，包括你上任董事長之後，突破點是什麼，要讓大家耳目一新，覺得杜董事長從過去的公務人員變成現在的公司董事長，哇！臺鐵真的是不一樣了。這時候不管你談要調幾個百分點，大家反而會問對這樣的人才會不會調太少？對不對？你要讓同仁有目標去拚，拚完了有成績就加薪，讓大家有動力。立法院也會挺得很開心，大家會覺得不一樣了，臺鐵公司是一個全新的公司。這是老生常談，都是在談這些東西啊！但是董事長一定要很清楚那個方向、每一個部門的方向是什麼、有可能可以再發揮創意的地方是什麼。過去臺鐵公司的任務不在此，沒有變成為公司之前的任務不在此，就是要讓火車可以跑，民眾上班不要遲到、上學不要遲到，只要正常運轉，臺鐵公司就做好啦！還有什麼事情？便當賣不賣不重要啦！對不對？沒有規定臺鐵一定要賣便當啊！光是針對便當，你現在不是要思考便當本身，而是思考怎麼樣可以讓飲食部門營收飆一倍、從7億元變14億元，對不對？剛剛也有委員提到啊！可以賣各式各樣的便當啊！臺鐵現在的便當叫作「全國統一版」，你們也可以推出第二個版本叫「地方版」，每一個地方版便當又有屬於地方的特色。這就是你的創意可以讓營收翻倍的基礎啊！所以我建議這個，你參考一下啦！"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：畢竟你是董事長，我不是董事長，所以要處理這些問題，一個公司就是公司啦！對於改制為公司，我很支持讓臺鐵變成公司。而公司就是公司，公司的方向是什麼？公司的角色是什麼？跟過去的公務同仁不大一樣，所以我的意思是要這樣思考，臺鐵才會有未來，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時22分）","繼續開會（11時32分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"155954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63e789bd46662f54d48446428ab222207fe99cfeeb60987bc23b21ad8153c732055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:01:30 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11:10:08","影片長度":"00:08:38","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-23","start_time":"2024-10-23T11:01:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-23T11:10:08+08:00","duration":518,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.73909375,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.36971875,"end":66.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.871593750000002,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.41096875,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.45096875,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.14284375,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.61096875000001,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.33784375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.08409375000001,"end":137.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.79846875,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.21659375000002,"end":168.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.31721875000002,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.71346875,"end":170.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.67096875000001,"end":174.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.88971875000001,"end":175.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.76721875,"end":177.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.74159375000002,"end":178.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.70346875,"end":178.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.73721875,"end":193.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.41409375,"end":194.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.70096875000002,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.03534375,"end":231.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.89346875,"end":244.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.85346875000002,"end":245.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.14034375000003,"end":247.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.85721875000002,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.17784375000002,"end":254.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.57346875000002,"end":256.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.67034375000003,"end":263.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.10409375,"end":270.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.27159375,"end":274.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.61284375,"end":276.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.32534375,"end":303.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.76409375000003,"end":303.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.40534375000004,"end":304.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.21534375000005,"end":321.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.03971875,"end":322.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.76096875,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.01346875,"end":330.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.56159375000004,"end":336.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.53534375000004,"end":339.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.12971875,"end":340.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.02409375,"end":345.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.42034375000003,"end":345.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.52971875000003,"end":362.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.03346875,"end":362.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.85596875000005,"end":373.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.52534375000005,"end":383.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.62909375000004,"end":398.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.04596875000004,"end":390.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.71971875,"end":404.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.47409375,"end":419.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.49284375,"end":419.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.50971875000005,"end":454.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.78721875,"end":425.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.10784375000003,"end":426.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.8578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不能讓屏東的鄉親覺得這個案子一直在拖或者是說一直說沒有做啦所以交通部既定的立場就是我們希望在年底一定要定案對於路線的部分要做定案這樣才能夠進入下一步"},{"start":231.317,"end":231.517,"text":"的進度。"},{"start":256.507,"end":260.532,"text":"二、政府若高雄市受影響部分也希望我們部裡面積極來溝通。我們有責任要來溝通"},{"start":276.508,"end":303.496,"text":"另外我想第二個問題就是我們屏東這邊我們的高捷紅線有衍生到我們所謂的臨邊道東港這個路線那因為之前我們有知道我們在大概在高雄端有這個一線到底的一個問題那高雄市好像比較堅持這個方案那另外就是針對這個臨遠市化貢業區這部分的這個到底要是要高價化還是要走淺遁這個部分不曉得目前有沒有比較最新的一個進度"},{"start":305.265,"end":322.457,"text":"我們現在齁這個系統還是希望他走高價輕軌的方式如果用高價輕軌的方式可能是比較適合屏東這一端那目前可行性研究正在進行當中那也送到鐵道局了鐵道局在審查那我是不是請鐵道局長來回應一下好跟完報告齁"},{"start":324.624,"end":338.245,"text":"這個案子屏東縣政府最近有送回來但是因為這個就是林園這一段在高雄跟在屏東這個地方高架的這個部分石化廠這個議題我們要持續來跟屏東縣政府跟高雄市政府來溝通協調"},{"start":341.185,"end":361.97,"text":"能不能再加快施程這個齁?我們一定加速來辦理尤其我想這個這也要跟部長請命啦齁因為其實對我們來講我們當然希望一車道理但是這牽扯到這個經費分攤的部分齁運動觀念再講比較困難啦如果我們交通部可以來多幫忙一點有沒有辦法克服這個一車道理這個問題"},{"start":364.242,"end":383.149,"text":"一車到底要溝通,因為屏東縣政府有他的想法,然後高雄市政府有他的想法,這兩邊的想法我們在中間當然會協助來溝通。對,部長所以本市都一直很擔心,尤其剛剛高鐵那個案子,回過頭來我再講那個案子,你如果今天進高雄市,好,現在我紅磅也在拖啦,"},{"start":385.611,"end":403.707,"text":"在進行評估之後會不會時間越拖越長我們都擔心這個問題因為有新的方案出來就會有新的討論就會有很多的想法地方有很多的意見時間真的不能等所以我們會加速溝通而且要落實溝通讓地方上大家能夠理解"},{"start":404.848,"end":418.742,"text":"這個方案或那個方案哪一個方案比較好那對民眾的影響我們也會盡量降到最低大家擔心的部分我們會盡量去跟民眾說明我們如何用工程的方式或者是用交違的方式來降低民眾的影響跟擔心"},{"start":419.909,"end":441.168,"text":"部長那第三個就針對我們下禮拜一我們有排交通委員會的考察會看一下恆春機場那恆春機場其實是一個很重要的一個尤其對我們這個整個墾丁恆春的觀光是一個很重要那之前我知道縣政府一直有在啟動所謂一個包機也好一些計畫但是有牽扯到跟軍方的一些"},{"start":441.789,"end":456.897,"text":"一切的問題,還有一個所謂的一個洛杉磅的一個天后因素那這部分有沒有機會能夠重新再做這樣一個評估,要不然這放在那邊、趴在那邊也沒辦法討論怎麼樣做一個活化的一個規劃是這個機場一直都在那個地方,那我們部內也在討論說機場整體的活化的問題"},{"start":459.938,"end":483.716,"text":"那天候的問題其實我們用技術上可不可以再精進一點那雖然幅度不一定有辦法做到很確很落實或者很大但是我們在技術上或者是科技的層面上怎麼讓克服這個天候的問題這一方面二方面其實包機的補助的部分我們也在思考看有沒有辦法再做更多的這個優惠方案來促銷來讓包機能夠進來肯定這邊"},{"start":485.877,"end":504.663,"text":"有請你看我們對整個我們東南亞如果說我們可以直接包機直接到鳳村機場我們可以在地這樣子做一個整個南台灣的一個旅遊我相信很有賣點啦是這麼節省很多的交通時間因為現在很多我們很多的這個亞洲的國家的旅客都必須飛到桃園還要坐高鐵就來對浪費很多時間的啦"},{"start":506.644,"end":516.689,"text":"這部分我們再來努力,拜師傅請部長我們也來講一下怎麼樣來協助我們這個肯定的觀光業能夠繼續的蓬勃發展,好不好?好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":571,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時1分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長、楊局長。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、局長早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：今天本席要用很沉重的心情站在這個地方質詢。最近高鐵南延的議題不管是在我們立法院也好、高雄市也好，都沸沸揚揚，而我要請教部長，我印象最深刻的是，從現任總統府潘孟安秘書長2005年擔任立委任內就開始追蹤高鐵南延屏東這個案子，一直到2019年蘇貞昌前院長正式核定這項高鐵南延屏東案，而且路線也都確定了，為什麼到了目前我們還在討論路線這個問題？難道有什麼狀況嗎？請部長回答。"],["陳部長世凱：其實最早我聽到的有6個方案，後來變成4個方案啦！最近我們收斂成2個方案在討論，就是高雄案跟左營案。漸漸收斂後，我們還是希望照李前部長當時的宣示，交通部要在年底之前公告走哪一個方案、要決定這件事情，所以年底這項計畫不會延宕，我們年底前一定會確定路線。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，本席還是要提醒，剛剛林俊憲委員說臺南沒有捷運，聽完我很心酸啦！我們屏東不僅沒有捷運、也沒有高鐵，有機場也不能用，我們陸、海、空的交通在西部縣市中真的完全、非常落後。部長，你覺得交通部對於這樣的情形真的不用負責任、改善一下？"],["陳部長世凱：要，我們現在作執政黨，當然要負責任解決屏東行的問題。過去好幾十年、甚至上百年，屏東的交通建設確實落後其他縣市非常、非常多，尤其跟西部其他都市比起來，這部分我們會加緊腳步。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，本席對你很有信心啦！尤其在你上任之後，我們也聊了很多關於屏東交通建設的事情，對於鐵路運輸、軌道建設也好、也包含屏南快速道路、高捷進度，我想包含部長跟局長，大家都有在掌握。不管哪條方案我們都支持，但是我們期待的是趕快定案、趕快動工，這才是屏東人的期待。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：不要把我們汙名化，好像今天高雄被拆房子是因為屏東造成的，這對屏東來講，扛不起這個責任啦，部長！"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們會努力啦！包括對社會的說明也好、對地方的說明也好。以剛剛講的兩個方案，不管是走左營案或者走高雄案，其實對地方還是會有一些影響，相關影響我們會說明。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我記得我上個會期就對王國材前部長問過這個問題，那時候的期程是2019年開始啟動，2029年要完工、開始運行。結果現在已經2024年了，卻連路線在哪裡都還沒確定，這是要怎麼對屏東人交代？"],["陳部長世凱：是啦！不能讓屏東鄉親覺得這個案子一直在拖，或一直說、沒有做，所以交通部的既定立場就是希望在年底一定要定案、對於路線部分要定案，這樣才能進入下一步進度。"],["徐委員富癸：是。我記得賴總統一直強調區域均衡發展，但對屏東來講，如果整體交通建設沒有到位，那我們的產業、我們的觀光、我們的農漁業發展是要怎麼跟人家比拚？尤其據我所知部長也很常來屏東，所以相信屏東人對你也寄予厚望，拜託部長，趕快在年底確定，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這點我們一定會做到。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，如果高雄市真的受到影響，也希望部裡面積極溝通啦！不宜造成高雄和屏東……"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們會做好說明，鐵道局也會下去跟地方溝通，不管是民意代表也好、或是村里長也好，大家來作討論。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！不要造成高雄跟屏東因為這件事情產生隔閡。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們有責任要來溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：好。","另外，第二個問題就是高捷紅線延伸到屏東林邊、東港這條路線。我們知道，之前在高雄端有一線到底的問題，高雄市好像比較堅持這個方案，另外就是針對林園石化工業區路段到底是要高架化還是要走潛盾，這部分不曉得目前有沒有最新的進度？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在對於這個系統還是希望走高架輕軌的方式，用高架輕軌方式可能比較適合屏東這一端。目前可行性研究正在進行當中，也送到鐵道局了，鐵道局正在審查。我請鐵道局長回應一下。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，這件案子屏東縣政府最近有送回來，但是因為針對林園這一段，也就是涉及高雄跟屏東這地方的高架路段與石化廠這個議題，我們要持續跟屏東縣政府和高雄市政府溝通協調。"],["徐委員富癸：能不能再加快時程？也已經拖很久了啊！"],["楊局長正君：我們一定加速辦理。"],["徐委員富癸：我也要向部長請命啦！其實對我們來講，當然希望一車到底，但是牽扯到經費分攤的部分。屏東縣的財政比較困難啦！如果交通部可以多幫忙一點，有沒有辦法克服一車到底這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：一車到底要溝通啦！因為屏東縣政府有它的想法，高雄市政府也有它的想法。對於這兩邊的想法，我們在中間當然會協助溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，本席一直很擔心，尤其剛剛高鐵那個案子，我再回過頭來講那個案子，如果進高雄市，那就換鳳山也要討，那麼再進行評估之後，會不會時間愈拖愈長？我們都擔心這個問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：因為有新的方案出來就會有新的討論、會有很多新的想法，地方也會有很多意見。但時間上真的不能等了啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以我們會加速溝通，而且要落實溝通，讓地方上的大家能夠理解這個方案或那個方案中哪一個方案比較好。對民眾的影響我們也會儘量降到最低，對於大家擔心的部分，我們會儘量跟民眾說明如何用工程的方式或交維的方式降低對民眾的影響跟擔心。"],["徐委員富癸：好。","部長，第三點是交通委員會下禮拜一安排了考察，會看一下恆春機場。恆春機場其實是很重要的設施，尤其對整個墾丁、恆春的觀光來說很重要。我知道之前縣政府也一直有啟動包機等計畫，但是牽扯到跟軍方的一些問題還有落山風的天候因素，這部分有沒有機會重新作評估？不然放著機場在那邊吹風也不是出路，要怎麼做活化規劃？"],["陳部長世凱：其實機場一直都在那個地方，我們部內也在討論機場的整體活化問題。天候問題其實可以從技術上討論看可不可以再精進一點，雖然幅度上不一定有辦法很落實或是很大，但可以研究在技術上或科技層面上怎麼克服天候問題，這是一方面。二方面，其實包機補助的部分我們也在思考，看有沒有辦法再做更多優惠方案來促銷，讓包機能夠進來墾丁這邊。"],["徐委員富癸：對，尤其如果可以從東南亞直接包機到恆春機場，就可以針對在地做整個南臺灣的旅遊，我相信很有賣點啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：也節省很多交通時間，因為現在很多亞洲國家的旅客都必須飛到桃園，再搭高鐵下來，浪費很多時間啦！這部分再努力啦！"],["陳部長世凱：這部分我們來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：下禮拜也請部長想想看怎麼樣協助我們墾丁的觀光業繼續蓬勃發展啦！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。因為蔡其昌委員等了滿久的，先請蔡其昌委員發言，發言完再休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華"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"林委員俊憲：因為這條線甚至可以延伸到高鐵站。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：如果再搭乘藍線的話，甚至可以到南科，這個已經送到交通部。"],["陳部長世凱：9月剛送到，這個部分我們來加速審議。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長。","另外有一條藍線，是藍線的延長線，或者叫深藍線，部長，你現在看到的這個半月弧形的藍線，現在大概是臺南市捷運速度最快的，希望在明年底或後年初大概就可以動工了，最快速度的就是這條藍線了。但除了藍線，現在還有一個深藍線的延長線，它是怎麼延長的呢？就是從仁德轉運站，經過仁德、歸仁，最後一站到關廟國中，也就是串聯南關線。部長，你知道現在南關線是臺南未來發展很重要的一個區塊，因為高鐵特區就在歸仁。賴總統前兩個禮拜就到歸仁、高鐵的沙崙去主持中研院南部分院的啟用典禮，現在國家大概幾乎所有重要單位都往歸仁、沙崙這個地方來，所以這條捷運的延長線就很重要，就是仁德、歸仁到關廟，最後一站在關廟國中。深藍線往南到臺南高鐵站，差不多在仁德的中山路那邊有一個交叉，這裡看起來變成淺藍線，在仁德的中山路那邊有交叉，一條往南延伸到臺南高鐵站──就是從仁德的中山路到高鐵站；所以等於高鐵站出來可以坐捷運線到仁德，轉過來再接深藍線，你甚至可以到南科，另外往南到高鐵站。現在的可行性研究也送到交通部了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：請交通部儘速審議好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們加速。"],["林委員俊憲：請交通部趕快支持，臺南已經起步比較晚了，六都就只有臺南沒有捷運，現在整體路網已經成型了，希望交通部加快速度來支持臺南。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來加速。"],["林委員俊憲：另外本席邀請臺鐵杜董事長。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：杜董事長好。臺鐵財務吃緊，現在票價又不讓你漲，臺鐵有一個生意最好、收入非常穩定、持續每年都大賺錢的就是賣便當。臺鐵賣便當，部長你知道吧？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，我常買。"],["林委員俊憲：你有吃過吧？"],["陳部長世凱：對，常常在吃。"],["林委員俊憲：常常在吃喔！好吃吧？"],["陳部長世凱：很喜歡吃！"],["林委員俊憲：有退步嗎？臺鐵的便當。"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得都很好吃。"],["林委員俊憲：都很好吃喔！","杜董事長，你要注意，現在有人反映臺鐵的便當菜色是不是質量的問題，還有賣便當的同仁是不是可以稍微有點笑容。"],["杜董事長微：好。"],["林委員俊憲：可能生意太好，所以賣便當賣到臉色都很難看。"],["杜董事長微：好，這個我會注意。"],["林委員俊憲：服務也要改善啦！因為這個對你來講非常重要，臺鐵去年賣了快要900萬個便當，這不簡單啦！全臺灣最大間的便當店就是臺鐵。去年賺多少錢知道嗎？"],["杜董事長微：知道。"],["林委員俊憲：去年收了七億多，收便當錢收了七億多，賺了1億2,300萬，這樣的利潤我不知道是不是合理，你的純利率只有17%，你看便當賣了七億多……"],["杜董事長微：是，因為我們有比較親民的價位。"],["林委員俊憲：親民的價位，就是便宜就對了！是良心價，還是說成本沒有管控好，我不知道啦！但是今年獲利會更驚人，今年1到9月臺鐵已經賣了700萬個便當，比2022年全年都多，今年我看這個營業額絕對會破七億，今年1到9月賺的錢已經比去（2023）年全年都還要多，所以這個生意已經變成臺鐵一個特色，其實可以更加活化推廣。我給你參考一下日本的情形，日本甚至做到每一個站都有特賣的便當，東京啊、宮島口啦，你看它每一個站都有搞特色出來。其實臺鐵是臺灣最重要的縱貫交通線之一，曾經跟各縣市合作過，你知道嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，你知道嗎？我們各縣市當地都有特色農漁產品，就辦一個各縣市的便當節，臺鐵辦了好像就那幾天而已！其實可以……"],["陳部長世凱：對，他們是以活動的方式啦，這樣比較可惜。"],["林委員俊憲：應該把它做到看能不能常態性。"],["陳部長世凱：辦完之後，如果反映好，應該繼續啦！就繼續賣這種便當。"],["杜董事長微：變成長供式。"],["林委員俊憲：因為我發現各縣市很認真在參與臺鐵的便當節，大家知道臺鐵賣便當不是在開玩笑的，嚇死人，一年都賣八百多萬個。你看新竹就用一個照燒貢丸便當，因為新竹貢丸嘛！我們臺南就拚虱目魚便當，你看這個照片看起來是不是很好吃？現在接近中午時間，看起來非常可口。"],["陳部長世凱：看得肚子餓了。"],["林委員俊憲：臺南的虱目魚便當，花蓮就有鹹豬肉便當，這可能是一種原住民傳統美食。臺東的鬼頭刀便當就用臺東特有的鬼頭刀魚，他們也做成便當。但是今年不知道怎麼了，臺南市就沒有參加，今年也有一個鐵路便當節啊！我覺得臺鐵應該邀請各地方政府，跟地方政府說臺鐵也幫你促銷嘛！對不對？因為臺鐵的便當節哇！吸引很大的注意。"],["陳部長世凱：也可以結合臺南400年一起辦活動，之後看看可不可以繼續延續下去。"],["杜董事長微：對，沒有錯。"],["林委員俊憲：甚至可以延伸到各縣市去，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["林委員俊憲：臺鐵已經有這樣的基礎，希望可以更認真、好好地賣便當，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["林委員俊憲：要不然，現在臺鐵票價不被准許調漲，收入要怎麼增加，對不對？臺鐵其實是有一些公益性質啦！你看票價，跟其他國家比起來，臺灣的大眾運輸票價都非常、非常的良心價啦！那你只好自己找財源啊！這樣好不好？這是我的建議啦！感謝部長……"],["楊局長正君：跟委員補充一下，剛才談的捷運黃線的可行性研究經費，我們已經核定了。"],["林委員俊憲：已經核定了？"],["楊局長正君：是780萬元，以上補充報告，剛剛訊息沒有完整。"],["林委員俊憲：好。部長，你有聽到吧？我要特別感謝。"],["陳部長世凱：繼續支持。"],["林委員俊憲：好像是分兩年核定吧？"],["楊局長正君：是的，分兩年補助。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這2,500萬元已經有著落了喔？當然一部分是市政府配合款嘛！"],["楊局長正君：對。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長、謝謝司長、謝謝局長。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},{"id":"155952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6343458b896d282444d7b602dab1c650f9e99cfeeb60987bc203e0b134b6616cf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:13:39 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那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種"},{"start":77.52,"end":85.208,"text":"然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說"},{"start":85.936,"end":89.058,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":109.728,"end":133.746,"text":"整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊"},{"start":135.387,"end":157.063,"text":"這個感受會特別的深刻啦你看克萊這個碳費的部分高雄是最高的但是台北是最低的台北幾乎是沒有所以當高雄已經承擔了這麼大的國家的重大的責任他面臨空污面臨所有這些的時候我們當然努力想要去這個面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰"},{"start":158.624,"end":180.176,"text":"所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個"},{"start":183.21,"end":190.275,"text":"這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣"},{"start":213.01,"end":214.13,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":244.269,"end":269.875,"text":"這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會,就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。好,那另外,開增這樣的碳費的對國營事業部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?"},{"start":271.121,"end":278.97,"text":"因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的"},{"start":279.895,"end":300.842,"text":"往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理"},{"start":309.645,"end":332.743,"text":"好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些"},{"start":333.643,"end":336.824,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配合。"},{"start":357.426,"end":382.051,"text":"獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?"},{"start":383.442,"end":391.559,"text":"因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補"},{"start":392.78,"end":415.161,"text":"第二,我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較。日本、韓國、新加坡收進來的碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量,甚至有一些地區會需要很大的調適的資金。"},{"start":417.003,"end":429.417,"text":"那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作減量計畫減量技術"},{"start":430.782,"end":450.353,"text":"那還有這個調試啦 那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁 這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣用 但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了 不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候 常常一進到後來"},{"start":451.454,"end":453.236,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．"},{"start":471.198,"end":493.85,"text":"那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善它的直接協助他們這個"},{"start":494.95,"end":497.855,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時13分）謝謝召委，請連次長跟施次長。"],["主席：請連次長跟施次長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩位次長好。我先請教連次長，這一次碳費的價格，碳定價的價格，外界有人認為是高於鄰近的幾個國家，連次長怎麼看？"],["連次長錦漳：因為本來在碳費審議委員會，我們是建議要跟周遭的競爭對手去……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主要競爭對手。"],["連次長錦漳：對，那現在這樣下來，如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險，因為它有一些優惠，應該是介於20元左右，剛好是在日本和韓國中間，但是一般產業確實是比日本還高。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以經濟部是希望在這個過程中，能夠兼顧到產業的狀況？"],["連次長錦漳：我們已經極力在爭取了，後來因為委員會是共識決。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，施次長要不要說明一下？"],["施次長文真：因為我們委員會的組成，其實部會有代表，團體有代表，專家學者也有代表，在團體的代表上面有工總、商總，然後有民間團體的代表。以代表不同團體的委員的立場，其實會希望取得一個平衡，所以這個是充分討論的狀況之下，其實環團建議的更高啦！因為以減碳為出發點，我們還是認為考慮到……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不過我還是要強調，我們的目的是希望促進減碳，甚至讓產業具有競爭力，所以當然各種的意見都有，但這是一個很重要的核心價值。我們希望未來在面對減碳的狀況下，讓企業能夠順利地轉型度過，讓他們同時具有競爭力，我覺得這樣的思維是要很密切去注意的。"],["施次長文真：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也看到，前經濟部長王美花特別提到，他擔憂的也是我們跟周邊鄰近國家的競爭力，特別是在鋼鐵、石化、水泥，很多都在高雄這邊，所以感受會特別深刻啦！你看課碳費的部分，高雄是最高的，但是臺北是最低的，臺北幾乎沒有，所以當高雄已經承擔了國家這麼重大的責任，它面臨空污、面臨所有這些的時候，我們當然努力想要去面臨這樣的挑戰，但是國家必須要給予一定的支持和協助，才能夠順利地度過挑戰。所以未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些子法的時候，我希望兩位次長，兩個部會都能夠秉持這樣的原則，我們是在協助企業去度過挑戰，順利地接軌上去，給他們更強的競爭力，讓他們更好，這才是最核心的一個問題，好不好？"],["施次長文真：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我接下來問一下，前王部長認為CBAM有相當的難度，那明年還是要照這樣來推嘛！施次長要不要講一下？"],["施次長文真：我們可能要先從申報開始討論，因為我想王部長應該滿清楚，我們的扣件業出口到歐盟，面臨歐盟的CBAM，其實申報上面確實有很大的困難與挑戰，那也因此我們在國內設計的時候，會參考歐盟在申報的過程當中怎麼樣面臨它的出口國要求它能夠做到公平不歧視的狀況，再來設計我國的，所以這個地方我們會再跟經濟部、財政部還有一些相關的部會去討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在處理過程中，請多跟業界做一些溝通，好不好？"],["施次長文真：會，一定會，我們會跟相關的工會、工總。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，也讓我們知道整個規劃的方向和結果，好不好？"],["施次長文真：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來要請教一下，中鋼、中龍其實都很重要，在高雄到臺中都很重要，這個應該都會列為高碳洩漏風險的產業吧？"],["連次長錦漳：這個應該是在高碳洩漏風險裡面。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個確定會嘛？"],["施次長文真：對，在其他國家都是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果是在這樣的狀況下，包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嘛？"],["連次長錦漳：會，一定會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以對他們的影響應該會降到最低啦！"],["連次長錦漳：會，衝擊會比較小。"],["賴委員瑞隆：給他們更多的時間來處理。另外，開徵碳費對國營事業的部分，這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題，連次長要不要先講一下？"],["連次長錦漳：因為這一次如果透過自主減量，剛才中油跟台電有提到，往下降用優惠費率的話，差不多原來的三分之一啦！這個幅度不是很大，應該不適宜往下去轉嫁。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們請經濟部也要密切注意，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：會，我們會注意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要讓這樣的東西對物價的部分產生過大的影響。"],["連次長錦漳：好，這個我們一定會去注意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：然後請環境部也要審慎思考。"],["施次長文真：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在整個過程中，要讓它能夠比較平順一點去處理。","再來，我想請教一下，現在碳費預估收入會有60億，照推估會有60億，那現在大家也在關心，我個人是主張收自於哪邊就應該多用於哪邊去做協助，既然它是來自於高碳排的企業跟大戶，應該多用在那個地方去協助他們改善，給他們更多的融資，甚至給他們更多的支持，讓他們在減碳這一塊做得更好，施次長同意這樣的方向嗎？"],["施次長文真：對，因為我們氣候法第三十三條就有說，溫管基金的收入確實要能夠獎勵跟補助有關於事業投資一些減碳的技術，所以這個一定是有減碳需求，或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高需要資金的挹注、協助，我們碳費的收入會優先以減碳為主。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，現在各地方政府有很多是希望讓自己用啦！現在環境部是希望用提計畫的方式嗎？"],["施次長文真：對，因為第一個，我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定，所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補。第二個，我們也參考其他國家，比如說委員們都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較，那日本、韓國、新加坡他們收進來的碳定價收入，其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配。","因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量，有一些地區會需要很大的調適資金，甚至剛剛也有委員很關心原住民強化碳匯的功能也會需要做補助，所以可能我們碳費收入還是會以減量的工作，包括減量計畫、減量技術，還有調適……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不過我還是要強調，這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去，將來中央或地方怎麼樣用……"],["施次長文真：不會、不會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是我還是要強調，那個部分繳納多的，不應該用於改善不相關的，就像我記得以前空污費的時候，到後來連研討會也給錢，活動也給錢，倒是實質用在改善空污的不一定真的給了。我認為既然要用在哪邊，就像過去的港務基金，港務的周邊道路損害，那就應該用在那個地方，而不是用到非常偏遠不相關的部分，我認為這樣才能夠實質有效去協助。","既然這些碳費，我們看一下，碳費最高的比例在高雄市，再來是雲林，占26%、24%，再來是臺中13%，可是你看新北市是0.63%，臺北市甚至是0，所以我認為在這樣的狀況下，其實應該要把這些資源就用在當地，不管是中央直接做或者是地方政府，應該用在當地，直接改善、直接協助他們減碳的部分，我認為才能達到政策的目標，不要再用到很偏遠、很大水庫的概念，好不好？請兩位次長要朝這個方向好嗎？"],["施次長文真：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["施次長文真：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員非常精準有效率的質詢，可以成為楷模。","下一位質詢請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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全國都希望能夠好好的打擊毒價依托彌子的問題已經日漸上升而法務部我們應該要好好重視這個問題可以嗎?可以 鮑偉我們已經開始在作業程序起動我們希望看到他升級我們希望看到嚴懲我們希望看到社會能夠更加安定安定的力量就需要整個法務部帶頭做起可以嗎?可以 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高中生的約5.6%但是到了110年卻暴增到8.8%"},{"start":68.627,"end":94.277,"text":"這下一張圖表應該就顯示出來齁然後因為我們以前是每年都公布啦到108年的時候就變成兩年公布一次所以我明明看到109108是5.6那114年就變成到這個8.8%齁這個數據應該部長可以看得清楚嘛那我這個新的煙害防治法的上路是在去年"},{"start":95.407,"end":110.083,"text":"到現在我們全面已經來禁止這個電子煙了其實電子煙有的製造還有輸入、販賣、供應等等等這段時間那青少年使用電子煙的比例是上升還是下降部長知道嗎"},{"start":112.711,"end":115.952,"text":"可不可以請健康署看看有沒有做調查"},{"start":130.918,"end":143.643,"text":"報告委員,112年我們有針對這個國高中生使用的這個部分有做調查那現在正在做全數的一個處理應該很快的時間就會公佈這個112年使用狀況"},{"start":146.815,"end":171.613,"text":"所以簡單說就是112年到現在為止都還沒有正確的數據可以給部長可以給委員會可以給社會大眾做參考初步的數據因為還在最後的校準那就我之前看到在上個禮拜我們看到的數據應該還沒有經過校準所以我比較保守的說那目前看起來的增加的趨勢沒有我們想像中的那麼快速"},{"start":173.499,"end":189.69,"text":"沒有我們想像中我們是指你跟我還是你跟部長不是因為跟我原報告其實電子煙這個問題確實很嚴重我舉例來講在澳洲你就講得很嚴重了為什麼你還講說沒有我們想像中我們是指我們是指誰"},{"start":190.61,"end":208.165,"text":"抱歉委員因為在澳洲現在已經113塊到年底了嘛對不對那你為什麼112年而且你們是兩年嘛對108年之後你就改為兩年來公告一次嘛公布一次嘛因為跟國人吸煙調查是用間隔年來做是啊是啊間隔年沒有錯啊但是為什麼到現在112年年底"},{"start":212.033,"end":212.854,"text":"三四月配合到現在"},{"start":233.766,"end":263.503,"text":"你的30月是112年30月還是112年?今年今年30月那到現在已經也所以我們即將要公告這個好你的即將公告是什麼時候?大約應該可以在11月公告11月公告好謝謝接下來部長你看這兩則新聞這景荒坡最大的電子煙工廠查購90萬的這個煙彈那市值破億那另外一個是高雄小黃司機大汪浪警檢來驗電子煙油結果結果驗出三級毒品"},{"start":264.709,"end":279.384,"text":"就是這個一粒棉FM2的這個三級的毒品成分結果他瞬間下不出來他是原本是很有自信的喔他不以為他是抽到什麼結果一驗出來就變成這個樣子所以我是講說"},{"start":280.922,"end":300.36,"text":"你如果連這樣這樣單純的去抽這個電子煙不曉得煙有什麼成分然後連這樣一個司機都不會以為他抽到這個毒品結果是去抽到了所以這個事情我是覺得非常嚴重"},{"start":301.01,"end":317.345,"text":"所以是不是衛生部、教育部甚至今天警政署的相關的官員有到嗎?然後在針對這個電子煙在校園的流竄有沒有什麼更積極的作為?有嗎?教育部是,我們麻煩教育部來"},{"start":320.578,"end":344.105,"text":"各位委員在校園的部分我們是結合校園的健康促進計畫加強教職員工對於這個電子煙以及加熱煙的這個外型的辨識以及造成的危害的認識那透過學生就是透過平常教職員工對於學生的接觸瞭解觀察學生是不是有使用或者攜帶相關物品的狀況如果有的話會進行檢查以及通報這個衛生局開罰"},{"start":346.618,"end":358.57,"text":"那你們這邊有沒有針對就是高中生以下的就教育部這邊自己去做跟教育部有配合去做調查這個比例有多高有沒有在逐年上升"},{"start":359.694,"end":388.461,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分是因為近期內才列為這個管制以及這個毒品的部分是沒有錯沒有錯這段期間在香港通報的部分確實有大概有一些件數不過就是只有短期間內所以很難看到趨勢從去年到現在嘛對不對所以很短時間很難去看到這個趨勢也是這樣嘛是所以你們預計啦就是說就當當就從去年這個煙災防治法修正之後就應該開始就有一個"},{"start":389.401,"end":389.581,"text":"教育部"},{"start":418.159,"end":423.842,"text":"今天大家有很多委員都談到這個喪屍煙彈那從底的部分我就不再贅述我只是簡單強調一下我請問這個喪屍煙彈我們可以去立即做判斷是我有吸食"},{"start":449.485,"end":462.173,"text":"最快的方式就是這個快篩試劑嘛對不對對不對檢控署看起來是這樣子是用快篩試劑最快部長替這個檢控署打呼也很好了齁"},{"start":463.44,"end":470.587,"text":"10月15號的時候新北市議會有特別針對當時新北市警局有提出來說這個快車四季目前為止他們是採購了1360劑但實際上他們需求將近高達8000劑"},{"start":481.578,"end":498.792,"text":"那我寫下結束詞這部長你可能就很難答覆了他的8000劑到位了嗎?包委員根據我們毒氣中心我是警政署刑事局的毒氣中心主任根據我們的了解新北市他們現在又採購了8000的已經到位了到位了好那全國的需求"},{"start":499.432,"end":523.539,"text":"六都來講新北市就已經在10月15號當時是沒有辦法到位那你現在跟我討論是到位了那全國針對這種快篩試劑因為它可以直接代表你警政署代表國家要向這個上次煙災的做宣戰嘛的一個最好的一個武器嘛對不對好那全國需要這樣的一個快篩試劑的量量能你們到位了嗎"},{"start":526.183,"end":549.341,"text":"現在根據我們的統計全國已經買了快一萬劑了那這縣市各縣市快一萬劑新北市就佔了八千劑喔八千劑不包含新北的八千劑不包含新北八千劑不包含對嘛啊一個新北市六都就叫八千劑了那你現在準備一萬劑那顯然全台連其他五都都不夠啦"},{"start":550.732,"end":557.795,"text":"報告委員這個各縣市他們會依照他們的實際的需求量去做一些採購那目前是採1萬劑那陸續會這個滾動的檢討來採購你這個滾動檢討來採購你大致上可以檢討到什麼時候有一個定案"},{"start":568.649,"end":592.708,"text":"你是滾動檢討清楚啦但是你這樣檢討我是不好意思跟你講你這樣檢討是很奇怪的一件事情因為新北市就要到八千那你現在檢討所才備用一萬那你到底知道什麼樣的檢討室檢討室的檢討我有點聽不太清楚我就講嘛就一個新北市就要八千了嘛你其他你這一萬也來不及供應這五都啊況且還有17個縣市啊"},{"start":595.786,"end":623.016,"text":"報告委員,我們會請他們再加強,然後我們也會去盤點的需求量。一個先行列好不好,這事情要快速啦。一個先行列,你把這個到底要供給多少的快篩試劑,我們來打擊這個上市煙彈的積極作為,提供給本委會參考好不好?可以,謝謝。好,謝謝。這最後我就要問部長了,部長,桃園部立院,他表示這個先行的毒品沒有藥物可以直接戒除腥癮。"},{"start":624.036,"end":634.369,"text":"我們不立院啦齁不立院對對對所以民眾有時候要求助卻無門所以他在10月起每週二下午開設這個成癮治療門診提供地檢署轉介"},{"start":639.242,"end":654.392,"text":"關起住戒癮治療服務也陪伴有益戒癮的民眾來探究這個成癮的根源所以我覺得桃園不利醫院來率先做這事情非常好那是不是全國的不利醫院都可以一併來做這樣的實施來設置所有開設這個相關的專診可以嗎"},{"start":657.074,"end":671.841,"text":"如果有這個需要我們會去努力好 那我就請部長這邊是不是責成一下讓他們來做一個檢討嘛竟然台灣部立院都已經開了嘛是的 對不對那其他部列是不是一併來來做這樣的一個門診的設立好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":823,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時2分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["劉委員建國：國健署應該可以一起上來吧？"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。98年我們通過菸害防制法的修正以後，最主要還是要處理青少年的菸害防制，這幾年我們確實也看到青少年使用傳統菸品的比例有所降低，但是根據國健署的統計，我國未滿十八歲的青少年使用新興菸品的比例正在逐年上升，部長可以看這個資料，110年初估有7.9萬的未成年青少年正在使用電子煙。資料顯示，108年使用電子煙的高中生約占5.6%，但是到了110年卻暴增到8.8%，再下一張圖表應該就顯示出來了。因為我們以前是每年都公布，到108年的時候就變成兩年公布一次，所以我們沒有看到109年的資料。108年是5.6%，110年就變成8.8%，這個數據部長可以看得很清楚嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：這個新的菸害防制法的上路是在去年，到現在，我們已經全面禁止電子煙及電子煙油的製造，還有輸入、販賣、供應等等，這段時間，青少年使用電子煙的比例是上升還是下降？部長知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：抱歉，委員問的是？"],["劉委員建國：我們去年就有在修正菸害防制法，對不對？新法上路到現在一年多嘛，這一年多青少年使用這種電子煙的比例是上升還是下降？"],["邱部長泰源：可不可以請健康署看看有沒有做調查？"],["賈副署長淑麗：報告委員，112年我們有針對國高中生使用的部分做調查，現在正在做權數的處理，應該很快的時間內就會公布112年使用狀況。"],["劉委員建國：所以簡單說，就是112年到現在為止都還沒有正確的數據，可以給部長，可以給委員會，可以給社會大眾做參考？"],["賈副署長淑麗：初步的數據，因為還在最後的校準，就我之前看到的，上個禮拜我們看到的數據，因為還沒有經過校準，所以我比較保守地說，目前看起來的增加趨勢，沒有我們想像中的那麼快速。"],["劉委員建國：「沒有我們想像中」的「我們」是指你跟我，還是你跟部長？"],["賈副署長淑麗：不是，跟委員報告，其實電子煙這個問題確實很嚴重，我舉例來講，在澳洲……"],["劉委員建國：你就會講很嚴重了，為什麼你剛才還講說沒有我們想像中的嚴重？我們是指誰？"],["賈副署長淑麗：抱歉，委員，因為在澳洲……"],["劉委員建國：沒有，現在已經113年，快到年底了嘛，對不對？那你為什麼112年沒有公布？而且是你們是兩年公布一次嘛，108年的時候，你們就改為兩年來公布一次嘛。"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為調查國人吸菸是用間隔年來做。"],["劉委員建國：事啊。是間隔年沒有錯啊。但是為什麼到現在112年年底的資料沒辦法顯示出來？"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為主要是我們這一個調查是跟美國CDC合作，在3、4月的時候美國CDC在整個加權上面有一些調整，所以我們再配合這個調整的權數，希望可以提供更準確的數字供各界參考。"],["劉委員建國：你說3、4月調整，你們配合到現在，你說的3、4月是112年的3、4月，還是113年的3、4月？"],["賈副署長淑麗：今年的。"],["劉委員建國：那到現在已經也……"],["賈副署長淑麗：所以我們即將要公告這個數據。"],["劉委員建國：好，你的即將公告大約是什麼時候？"],["賈副署長淑麗：應該可以在11月公告。"],["劉委員建國：11月公告。好，謝謝。","接下來，部長，你看這兩則新聞。一則是警方破獲最大的電子煙工廠，查扣90萬的煙彈，市值破億。另外一則是高雄小黃司機大方讓警檢來驗電子煙油，結果驗出三級毒品，就是一粒眠，FM2這個三級毒品的成分，結果他瞬間笑不出來。他原本是很有自信的喔，他不以為他是抽到什麼毒品，結果一驗出來就變成這個樣子。所以我是想說，如果連這樣這樣單純的去抽電子煙，不曉得煙油是什麼成分，然後連這樣一個司機都以為他不會抽到毒品，結果卻抽到了，這個事情我是覺得非常嚴重，所以要提醒衛福部、教育部、警政署，今天警政署的相關的官員有到嘛，針對電子煙在校園的流竄流串，你們有沒有什麼更積極的作為？有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們麻煩一下教育部人員。"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，在校園的部分，我們是結合校園的健康促進計畫，加強教職員工對於電子煙、加熱菸的外型的辨識及造成的危害的認識，透過平常教職員工對於學生的接觸，瞭解觀察學生是不是有使用或攜帶相關物品的狀況，如果有的話，會進行檢查及通報衛生局開罰。"],["劉委員建國：那你們有沒有針對高中生以下的學生，配合教育部去做調查？這個比例有多高？有沒有在逐年上升？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，因為這部分是近期內才列為管制毒品……"],["劉委員建國：是，沒有錯，沒有錯。"],["吳司長林輝：這段期間在校安通報的部分，確實有一些件數，不過就是只有短期間內，所以很難看到趨勢。"],["劉委員建國：從去年到現在嘛，對不對？所以短時間內很難去看到這個趨勢，一定是這樣嘛。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["劉委員建國：從去年菸害防制法修正之後，就應該開始有一個作為，應該是這麼講，從去年、今年，甚至到明年，是不是你們會像國健署這樣兩年公告一次？會嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，我們對於通報的部分，因為都透過校安通報，每年都會有通報的數據跟統計。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。我為什麼要講這件事情？你是警政署的？"],["吳司長林輝：是教育部。"],["劉委員建國：對不起，對不起。我剛剛是請警政署的人上來，怎麼會是教育部的人跑上來？"],["吳司長林輝：因為委員剛剛問到校園。"],["劉委員建國：今天有很多委員都談到喪屍煙彈，重疊的部分我就不再贅述，我只是簡單強調一下，請問，我們可以立即判斷是否有吸食喪屍煙彈，最快的方式就是快篩試劑嘛，對不對？對不對？警政署。"],["邱部長泰源：看起來是這樣子，用快篩試劑最快。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長替警政署答復，也很好。10月15日新北市議會特別針對新北市警局提問，當時新北市警局有提到，目前為止，他們採購了快篩試劑1,360劑，但是實際上他們的需求高達將近8,000劑，那我請問警政署，這個問題部長可能就很難答復了，警政署這8,000劑到位了嗎？"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，我是警政署刑事局毒緝中心主任，根據我們的了解，新北市現在又採購了8,000劑，已經到位了。"],["劉委員建國：到位了？"],["吳警政監東文：是。"],["劉委員建國：好。那全國的需求，就六都來講，新北市在10月15日當時沒有辦法到位，那你現在跟我答復到位了，那全國快篩試劑到位，就可以直接代表警政署，代表國家，向喪屍煙彈宣戰，這是最好的一個武器嘛，對不對？"],["吳警政監東文：是。"],["劉委員建國：好？那全國需要快篩試劑的量能，你們到位了嗎？"],["吳警政監東文：現在根據我們的統計，全國已經買了快一萬劑了，各縣市……"],["劉委員建國：快一萬劑，新北市就占了8,000劑。"],["吳警政監東文：新北的8,000劑不包含在內。"],["劉委員建國：新北市的8,000劑不包含在內，對嘛。六都就要8,000劑了，那你現在準備一萬劑，那顯然連其他五都都不夠了。"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，各縣市會依照他們實際的需求量去採購，那目前是採購一萬劑，陸續會滾動地檢討來採購。"],["劉委員建國：你這個滾動檢討來採購，大致上可以檢討到什麼時候有一個定案？你是滾動檢討我清楚啦，但是我是不好意思跟你講，你這樣檢討是很奇怪一件事情，因為新北市就要到8,000，現在警政署備用才一萬，那你到底是要什麼樣的滾動式檢討？我有點聽不太清楚。我就講嘛，就一個新北市就要8,000了嘛，你這一份也來不及供應這五都，況且還有17個縣市啊。"],["吳警政監東文：報告委員，我們會請他們再加強，然後我們也會去盤點需求量。"],["劉委員建國：一個星期內好不好？這個事情要快速啦。一個星期內你把到底要供給多少快篩試劑，以打擊喪屍煙彈，這方面的積極作為提供給本委員會參考，好不好？可以嗎？"],["吳警政監東文：可以。謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。","最後我就要問部長。部長，桃園部立醫院表示，新興的毒品沒有藥物可以直接戒除心癮。"],["邱部長泰源：部立醫院？"],["劉委員建國：對。民眾有時候求助無門，所以從10月起每週二下午開設這個成年治療門診，提供地檢署轉介緩起訴戒癮治療服務，陪伴有意戒癮的民眾來探究成癮的根源，所以我覺得桃園部立醫院率先做這個事情非常好，那是不是全國的部立醫院都可以一併來實施，開設相關的專診？，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有這個需要，我們會去努力。"],["劉委員建國：好，那我就請部長責成一下，讓他們來做一個檢討。既然桃園部立醫院都已經開了嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["劉委員建國：那其他部立醫院是不是一併設立這類門診，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員，謝謝部長。","那接續我們請羅廷瑋委員發言。","稍後林淑芬委員發言後，我們處理臨時提案，只有兩件。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},{"id":"155948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d634e645d311449d4e9ea3bc5a9eeba56a8e99cfeeb60987bc2470218920b9c28b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:00:53 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GPT在2022年問世以來有各個國家在不同的地方都要來打造他們自己的AI"},{"start":41.249,"end":56.312,"text":"中國的百度呢就宣布要打造華文版的生成式AI文心藝人現在AI的排行榜上面也有非常多中國大陸的團隊與之抗衡那我們已經看到了行政院的卓中泰院長宣誓我們要進入主權AI的時代"},{"start":57.213,"end":72.729,"text":"我們作為少數使用繁體中文那當然我們的官方說法是臺灣政體以下我會用繁體中文來稱呼我們認為臺灣應該當然也急需打造我們自己的語言模型或者相關fine2的AI"},{"start":73.53,"end":96.445,"text":"能夠捍衛我們台灣在華語世界裡指標性的燈塔讓繁體中文跟簡體中文的中文之爭文化之爭思想之爭這個重要的一戰我們不會輸也不能輸請問一下部長文化部作為組長中華民國我們台灣文化政策的部會是不是願意成為部會之間捍衛繁體中文正體中文的領頭羊"},{"start":97.466,"end":101.052,"text":"所以您身為中華民國我們台灣的文化部的部長願不願意成為捍衛繁體中文的重要的第一人?"},{"start":112.469,"end":116.111,"text":"我們先前賴總統在國際委員會發表演說有一個祖國論當然不管是祖國論還是主權AI我們繁體中文正體中文都應該要更加正統而且更加的能夠表達我們華語的文化"},{"start":133.382,"end":151.403,"text":"但是本席最近接獲許多、非常多、超級多民眾的反應已經非常長的時間了。Google旗下的影片分享網站也是目前全世界最大的影片搜尋和分享平台YouTube。它本身內建的影片自動翻譯字幕的功能"},{"start":151.983,"end":156.746,"text":"所有的字幕都沒有問題簡體中文也沒有問題就只有繁體中文的字幕根本就是沒有辦法顯示沒有辦法出來常常就是有狀況的一個狀態如果部長上網搜尋你會發現非常多的網友非常多的網友崩潰"},{"start":168.573,"end":192.509,"text":"在討論這件事情甚至還有高手為了解決YouTube的這個問題寫了外掛的程式不知道部長有沒有認知到這件事情的嚴重性兩三年的時間都故障沒有辦法使用外掛都寫出來了業者沒有積極的辦理這背後到底有沒有一些其他或我們無法想像的考量呢本席認為政府不應該做事不管接下來我請部長看三段影片"},{"start":199.977,"end":202.745,"text":"我們讓自動翻譯我們看繁中"},{"start":204.082,"end":231.512,"text":"小朋友想看中文不好意思沒有繁體中文然後我們再看一下他們說我還是想看他在講什麼啊怎麼辦選擇簡體哇翻譯就出來啦我們年輕的小朋友就看簡體中文啦再來勒博物館利物浦博物館想要了解有國外的歷史想要來了解他繁體中文的翻譯"},{"start":232.652,"end":256.89,"text":"出不來沒有沒辦法看結果呢我們的台灣的青年要學習啊拍誰啦你只能看簡體中文的翻譯這個已經兩三年了網路上都是討論我其實從進來之後我每一天都在關注這件事情我沒有得到回應我們看到最可怕的是什麼我們再來看下一個例子"},{"start":257.791,"end":267.901,"text":"我們的賴清德總統用英語在國際場合進行演說結果我們的國民想要了解我們總統英語演說的內容居然被迫"},{"start":269.025,"end":286.101,"text":"沒有辦法看繁體中文竟然我們竟然只能看到我們的全國的民眾全世界愛好繁體中文台灣正體文化的人只能看到簡體中文在我們的總統的臉上部長"},{"start":288.763,"end":296.448,"text":"我真的覺得這件事情非常非常的重要我們若沒有辦法重視這件事情的話我們可能會淪為文化三級貧富什麼文化貧權變成貧窮的貧阿變成文化貧權我想上一次我就反應過了我們在金鐘獎podcast的報名軟體裡面曾經竟然看到了簡體中文當時文化部回應"},{"start":314.64,"end":338.527,"text":"說我們的影視工作者慣用的軟體開始逐漸的不提供繁體中文的介面結果現在全世界最大的這個影音的平台由我們總統的影片上面全國的民眾要看竟然沒有辦法看到繁體中文的翻譯本席認為網路上所有做外掛的積極向YouTube申訴反映但是卻沒有得到結果的這些網友值得欽佩"},{"start":339.907,"end":359.358,"text":"他們沒有因為一時的方便就說好啦簡體可以看就好了啦我是真的覺得很欽佩他們我也很痛心啦我想我們的部會如果有把我們賴總統的祖國論放在心裡重視我們台灣政體反體中文的華語的文化我想齁文化部是不是應該要來重視這件事部長"},{"start":360.419,"end":389.673,"text":"站在發展主權AI提升文化韌性的立場文化部對此是不是應該要來向YouTube或者這些商業的平台表達我們官方的立場這裡我們來試試看因為我覺得台灣的歷史命運一直在這種很強勢的政權跟文化的壓力下一直存活到現在全世界只有我們在用繁體制包括我們的文化也是在一直強力的打壓下往前走那這個部分"},{"start":391.069,"end":393.131,"text":"部長,您可不可以鼓勵一下我們所有的網友"},{"start":412.626,"end":430.088,"text":"我真的是很佩服這些我是真的現在都有點眼眶泛淚我佩服這些包括我自己啊我都不願意去看這些簡體的中文你能不能站在主權AI的立場文化部是不是支持強烈希望像YouTube這樣的平台可以有繁中翻譯的字幕"},{"start":431.449,"end":445.858,"text":"我們來試試看吧因為我覺得他們那種你去跟他溝通他有時候非常強勢的他不會理我們就像我們的自己的對外的關係一樣但是為了我們的文化為了我們的主權希望我們來努力好不好文化部"},{"start":447.319,"end":471.616,"text":"再來我想今年4月份我也曾經就台灣電影應該要建立官方資料庫的問題來質詢過為什麼呢我們的文化我們的習慣我們的過去美好的回憶開始慢慢的被侵略了這個角色我也很喜歡我們都叫蜘蛛人但是有很大一部分的人竟然是叫他蜘蛛俠這文化上的翻譯不一樣"},{"start":472.777,"end":489.663,"text":"一位電影沙丘走紅的這個Zendaya號稱地表最強30歲以下女演員在台灣就有多個藝名是沒有辦法平均的有人叫千代雅有人叫新代雅有人叫讚達雅我們叫珍妮佛的現在有些地方叫珍妮花"},{"start":490.643,"end":515.502,"text":"如果文化部沒有用官方的立場來建立這樣的資料庫我們年輕朋友未來在講這些電影的這麼棒的文化的這些語言的時候是沒有辦法用我們美麗的臺灣正體繁體中文過去慣用的稱呼您覺得這樣可以接受嗎請問部長我們目前電影資料庫創建的進度如何114年文化部有沒有編列相關的預算"},{"start":518.183,"end":518.383,"text":"我請市長來回答"},{"start":540.97,"end":556.857,"text":"委員好關於委員之前有詢問到台灣統一移民影片統一移民的部分我們之前其實有在進一步去詢問各個業界代表因為其實像這種國外的移民或外來片商的移民他其實進口的片商他還是會考慮在地性市場性他會有自己的翻譯"},{"start":557.637,"end":574.501,"text":"那其實很難是去統一我們要求說你全部進來的時候你都要統一用我們的議名來做呈現所以當時也有先跟委員做過說明我們這邊的部分其實我們現在是有一個票房系統那票房系統這邊的相關資料我們其實會進TED讓他作為AI訓練的那我就問一個問題下一步蜘蛛人出來的時候片商如果要叫蜘蛛俠我們有沒有意見我就只問這一題我們會不會有意見我們讓片商自己決定嘛我們就留下記錄沒有關係"},{"start":588.271,"end":590.078,"text":"可以嗎?你剛剛的回應是這樣嗎?"},{"start":591.567,"end":617.353,"text":"希望這一點我們請文化部再研議一下好不好那不管是用什麼樣的方式我們希望還是讓我們台灣有我們習慣的文化這也是我們的記憶嘛好不好那我想接下來還有幾題我跟這個主席爭取一點時間不好意思我盡快這個有非常多的調查都已經開始在關注剛剛羅廷偉委員也有提到已經有非常多文化產製影視動畫音樂遊戲的產業開始在用深層式的AI"},{"start":621.394,"end":637.867,"text":"已經有國外開始在做更普遍的調查比如說美國有七成二等等請教部長文化部有沒有針對臺灣我們文化內容產業在產製過程中使用AI工具或是提供資料供AI訓練的情形來進行調查有沒有做過董事長回答有沒有"},{"start":646.936,"end":666.22,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題那其實就這個AI這個文化藝術產業應用生成次AI這個部分我剛才已經有說明過其實我們已經開始在啟動一個指引的一個規範所以是有沒有我說的是產業使用的調查狀況調查不是指引規範指引規範是我下一題喔那產業調查部分因為還沒有因為這是文策院會來做一個處理"},{"start":674.043,"end":682.815,"text":"我真的是要提醒希望文化部具體要求可不可以文化內容產業跟AI運用的調查報告可不可以提出來多久可以提出"},{"start":689.144,"end":717.945,"text":"三個月希望我們可以看到另外最後提醒部長我們的AI訓練真的在面臨合法資料多元性不足的問題我們全世界的AI在繁體中文在我們中華民國的文化可以說是營養不良文化部是有責任的我們要帶頭提供更多的資料這是我們在用商用的這個現在全台灣可能最多學生在使用的AI說畫一張孫中山先生站在國旗前的照片"},{"start":720.409,"end":738.136,"text":"我非常痛心我非常痛心英文也翻譯很正確Republic of China就畫出來是這個樣子這就是資料不足造成的問題所以請教部長未來可能衍生出的這些侵權的疑慮產業的使用的指引"},{"start":739.747,"end":752.22,"text":"希望趕快提出那國科會人工智慧基本法的草案速發部有促進資料創新應用的發展條例有沒有徵詢文化部的意見最後一個問題對不起有沒有徵詢文化部的意見好"},{"start":755.063,"end":755.243,"text":"謝謝格瑞"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時1分）謝謝主席，有請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長遠：葛委員你好！"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好！不管是過去還是現在，文化、科技跟主權絕對都密不可分，我們邁入AI的時代，我們要開始更加關注文化的議題。自從ChatGPT在2022年問世以來，各個國家在不同地方都要打造他們自己的AI。中國的百度就宣布要打造華文版的生成式AI──文心一言，現在AI排行榜上面也有非常多中國大陸的團隊與之抗衡。我們已經看到行政院卓榮泰院長宣示我們要進入主權AI時代，我們做為少數使用繁體中文，當然我們的官方說法是「臺灣正體」，以下我會用繁體中文來稱呼。","我們認為臺灣當然也極需打造我們自己的語言模型或是相關Phi-2的AI，能夠捍衛臺灣在華語世界裡指標性的燈塔，讓繁體中文跟簡體中文間的中文之爭、文化之爭、思想之爭，這麼重要的一戰我們不會輸，也不能輸。請問一下部長，文化部做為主掌中華民國、臺灣文化政策的部會，你們是不是願意成為部會之間，捍衛繁體中文、正體中文的領頭羊？"],["李部長遠：當然，這個部分是文化主權，也牽涉到未來我們會不會在地球上消失的關鍵。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯，所以你身為中華民國、臺灣文化部的部長，你願不願意成為捍衛繁體中文裡重要的第一人？"],["李部長遠：不是第一人，就是做而已。"],["葛委員如鈞：重要的人嘛！"],["李部長遠：對，重要。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯嘛！先前賴總統在國慶晚會發表演說，說了一個「祖國論」，當然，不管是祖國論還是主權AI，我們繁體中文、正體中文都應該要更加正統，而且更加的能夠表達我們華語的文化。","本席最近接獲許多、非常多、超級多民眾的反映，這已經是非常長的時間了，Google旗下的影片分享網站，它也是目前全世界最大的影片搜尋和分享平臺，YouTube本身內建的影片自動翻譯字幕功能，所有的字幕都沒有問題，簡體中文也沒有問題，就只有繁體中文的字幕根本就沒有辦法顯示出來，常常都有這個狀況。如果部長上網搜尋，你會發現有非常多的網友都崩潰的在討論這件事情。甚至還有高手為了解決YouTube這個問題而寫了外掛程式，不知道部長有沒有認知到這件事情的嚴重性？二、三年的時間都故障沒有辦法使用，外掛程式都寫出來了，業者卻沒有積極的辦理，這背後到底有沒有其他或是我們無法想像的考量呢？本席認為政府不應該坐視不管。","接下來我請部長看3段影片，第一段是佩佩豬的卡通，我們用自動翻譯，我們看繁中，小朋友想看中文，「歹勢」！沒有繁體中文，然後我們再看一下，我們還是想看他在講什麼？怎麼辦？選擇簡體，哇！翻譯就出來了，我們年輕的小朋友就看簡體中文。再來，利物浦博物館，我們想要瞭解國外的歷史，繁體中文的翻譯出不來，沒有、沒辦法看，臺灣的青年要學習，「歹勢」！只能看簡體中文的翻譯，這個已經二、三年了，網路上都是相關討論。","其實我進來立法院後，我每一天都在關注這件事情，但是都沒有得到回應，我們看到最可怕的是什麼？我們再來看下一個例子，賴清德總統用英語在國際場合進行演說，結果我們的國民想要瞭解總統英語演說的內容，竟然沒有辦法看繁體中文，全國的民眾、全世界愛好繁體中文、愛好臺灣正體文化的人，只能被迫看到簡體中文在我們總統的臉上。部長，我真的覺得這件事情非常非常的重要，如果沒有辦法重視這件事情的話，我們可能會淪為文化三級貧戶，什麼文化平權？變成是貧窮的「貧」，變成「文化貧權」。","上次我就反映過了，我們在金鐘獎的podcast報名軟體裡面，竟然看到簡體中文，當時文化部回應：我們影視工作者慣用的軟體會開始、逐漸的不提供繁體中文的介面。結果現在全世界最大的影音平臺在我們總統的影片上面，全國民眾想要看，竟然沒有辦法看到繁體中文的翻譯。網路上所有做外掛的都積極的向YouTube申訴和反映，但是卻沒有得到結果，這些網友值得欽佩，他們沒有因為一時的方便就說：好啦！有簡體可以看就好了。我是真的很欽佩他們，我也很痛心，如果我們部會有把賴總統的祖國論放在心裡，重視我們臺灣繁體中文的華語文化，我想，文化部是不是應該要重視這件事情？部長，站在發展主權AI，提升文化韌性的立場，文化部對此是不是應該要向YouTube或是這些商業平臺表達我們官方的立場？"],["李部長遠：這點我們來試試看，因為臺灣的歷史命運一直在這種強勢的政權跟文化壓力下存活到現在，全世界只有我們在用繁體字，包括我們的文化也是，我們一直在強力的打壓下往前走，這個部分我們來試試看，因為就算是打詐那種事情，我們去抗議，他們有時候也不理我們，大概是這樣，我覺得那種強權跟文化、商業勾連在一起，這對我們的主權AI也好、文化主權也好，這的確是一個非常不利的環境。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，你可不可以鼓勵一下所有的網友？我真的很佩服這些網友，我現在都有點眼眶泛淚了，我很佩服這些網友，包括我自己都不願意去看這些簡體中文。你能不能站在主權AI的立場，文化部是不是支持、強烈的希望像YouTube這樣的平臺可以有繁中的翻譯字幕？"],["李部長遠：我們來試試看吧！因為我覺得他們那種……因為有時候我們去跟他們溝通，他們都非常強勢，他們不會理我們，就像我們對外的關係一樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是為了我們的文化和主權，希望我們來努力，好不好？文化部。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：再來，今年4月我也曾就臺灣電影應該要建立官方資料庫的問題來質詢過，為什麼呢？因為我們的文化、習慣和過去美好的回憶，都開始慢慢的被侵略了。這個角色我也很喜歡，我們都叫他「蜘蛛人」，但是有很大一部分人竟然叫他「蜘蛛俠」，這是文化上翻譯不一樣。因為電影「沙丘」走紅的Zendaya，她號稱是地表最強30歲以下女演員，她在臺灣就有多個藝名沒有辦法統一，有人叫她「千黛亞」，有人叫她「辛蒂亞」、「贊達亞」。現在叫「珍妮佛」的，現在有些地方是叫「珍妮花」。如果文化部沒辦法用官方的立場來建立這樣的資料庫，未來年輕朋友在講電影這麼棒的文化語言時，將沒有辦法用我們美麗的臺灣正體、繁體中文及過去慣用的稱呼，你覺得這樣可以接受嗎？","請問部長，目前電影資料庫創建的進度如何？114年文化部有沒有編列相關的預算？"],["李部長遠：我們一直在做。"],["葛委員如鈞：一直在做，那我們什麼時候可以看見相關的進度？"],["李部長遠：哪方面的進度？"],["葛委員如鈞：就是電影資料庫，我們要讓AI去訓練啊！現在電影資料庫，有關這些譯名的統一，哪裡可以看到？"],["李部長遠：我是不是可以請司長來回答？"],["吳司長宜璇：委員好！有關委員之前詢問到臺灣影片統一譯名的部分，之前我們有進一步去詢問各業界的代表，像這種國外譯名或是外來片商的譯名，進口的片商還是會考慮在地性和市場性，它會有自己的翻譯，所以我們很難要求他們進來時都要統一用我們的譯名來呈現。當時也有先跟委員做過說明，其實我們現在有一個票房系統，關於票房系統這邊的相關資料，我們會進入TAIDE，讓它做為AI訓練的……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，那我就問一個問題，下一部「蜘蛛人」出來的時候，如果片商要叫「蜘蛛俠」，你們有沒有意見？我就只問這一題，你們會不會有意見？你們讓片商自己決定嘛！這就留下記錄沒有關係，可以嗎？你剛剛的回應是這樣嘛！這點請文化部再研議一下，好不好？不管是用什麼樣的方式，希望還是讓我們臺灣有習慣的文化，這也是我們的記憶，好不好？","接下來還有幾題，我跟主席爭取一點時間，不好意思！我儘快。有非常多的調查都已經開始在關注，剛才羅廷瑋委員也有提到，已經有非常多的文化產製、影視、動畫和音樂遊戲產業開始用生成式AI，國外也已經開始在做普遍的調查，譬如說：美國有七成二等等。請教部長，文化部有沒有針對臺灣文化內容產業在產製的過程中使用AI工具，或是提供資料供AI訓練的情形來進行調查？有沒有做過？"],["李部長遠：請司長回答。"],["魏司長秋宜：謝謝委員關心這個議題，其實文化藝術產業應用生成式AI這個部分，我剛才已經有說明過，我們已經開始啟動指引規範。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以是有？"],["魏司長秋宜：有。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有，我說的是產業使用狀況的調查，不是指引規範，指引規範是我的下一題。"],["魏司長秋宜：產業調查的部分還沒有，因為這是由文策院處理。"],["葛委員如鈞：我真的要提醒，希望文化部要具體的要求，文化內容產業跟AI運用的調查報告可不可以提出來？多久可以提出？我希望3個月可以看到。","另外，最後提醒部長，我們的AI訓練正面臨合法資料多元性不足的問題，全世界的AI在繁體中文、在我們中華民國的文化可以說是營養不良，文化部是有責任的，你們要帶頭提供更多的資料。這是商用，也可能是現在全臺灣最多學生在使用的AI，它畫一張孫中山先生站在國旗前的照片，卻長這個樣子，我非常痛心，它的英文翻譯翻得非常正確，Republic of China，結果畫出來是這個樣子，這就是資料不足造成的問題，所以請教部長，未來可能衍生出的侵權疑慮、產業使用指引，希望趕快提出來。國科會人工智慧基本法草案和數發部促進資料創新應用發展條例，有沒有徵詢文化部的意見？最後一個問題，對不起！有沒有徵詢文化部的意見？"],["李部長遠：這些會議我們都有參與。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，文化部在發展主權AI、保護文化韌性的過程中絕對不能缺席，希望我們的主權AI是建立在有文化的根基跟領域上，希望文化部可以積極主動，在我們創建主權AI的過程中扮演關鍵性的角色，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞委員。部長先請回。","接下來有請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}},{"id":"155947","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155947","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d638aa601053cecdd66d7b602dab1c650f9e99cfeeb60987bc220fe99b0e8b33c245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:05:01 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...阿...阿...阿...阿...阿...阿...阿...阿..."},{"start":260.148,"end":287.495,"text":"那這件事怎麼...有沒有罰則啦?有沒有處罰?他會把它取消嗎?而且署長我記得我在上個...我上一屆我就跟你建議過了。處罰就很簡單啊。他的發電不要給他。他沒有養殖...當年度他的發電都不可以拿。跟委員報告...就是這個事情後來有跟農業部有協調過。就是如果他沒有養殖適時,經過限期改善不改善的話,他撤銷農業許可,我們就撤銷電業許可。"},{"start":288.7,"end":313.316,"text":"就直接撤銷電業許可阿?阿撤銷電業許可那又有分為幾個層次阿?第一個就是說那一個電費的部分勒?就如果他的電業值再被撤銷當然整個就沒有了整個我們都沒收嘛所以這個就有一套的管理的機制一定要有養殖事實那沒有電業許可之後勒?那是指把他的整個案場沒收?你怎麼說到明?直接說到明?對,那個案場就直接收歸國有?"},{"start":314.756,"end":338.541,"text":"還是怎樣啊?就是你們要講清楚這個法則是這樣,這樣才會讓大家去警覺到說我們現在要在這個地方投入魚電共生,我們不要用這種投機式的,那個明明的說養殖才是一個重點,結果看起來沒有人把養殖當作重點,我真的沒有遇到說我要在這個魚電共生場好好來養殖,沒有啦,真的沒有啦,好不好?"},{"start":342.123,"end":368.801,"text":"所以我覺得市長這件事我們要要緊啦!要要緊!其實我們現在在跟農業部也在討論說要是不是因為有像委員講的這樣的一個事情我們現在也在跟農業部在討論說是不是採用一些新的機制避免這樣的一個情況發生這樣子我們現在目前這個機制正在演繹中市長我相信你也知道站在我的立場我是很鼓勵地方發展綠能"},{"start":369.862,"end":398.041,"text":"但是我們覺得說我們一定要先把遊戲規則講清楚這樣我們在推展綠能的時候才不會被有很多投機的或者是他是用很多不法的手段然後來達到他們有發展他們投入綠能的一個效果就既然這個地方我們強調養魚為主的餘電共生這樣我們就要一開始他的計畫就要好啊他到底要怎麼跟地方的漁民來做合作還是說他們養魚計畫是怎樣"},{"start":400.043,"end":412.32,"text":"這事情都還沒有講清楚結果大家一窩蜂在投入現在我看起來真的我感覺起來有很多真的沒有在養魚啦"},{"start":413.463,"end":413.643,"text":"應該是長7%吧?"},{"start":437.825,"end":453.791,"text":"我要查一下鋼鐵是要漲7%嗎?鋼鐵是他有調漲到對他有調漲只是說他是減半調漲我要再查一下我來查一下好沒關係我直接說啦事實上我是代為去轉"},{"start":454.791,"end":466.344,"text":"轉述一些業者的一個心聲因為鋼鐵業這幾年事實上遇到的是包括中國這邊的一些打壓事實上我們這幾年來鋼鐵業的"},{"start":469.748,"end":492.313,"text":"成長是不好的他們的這個獲利是差的所以這一次的漲電價事實上對於鋼鐵業是有相當的衝擊但是他們現在應該是沒有被認定是在減半的一個行業別裡面所以我想這部分我們經濟部可能再斟酌一下是不是在於說要調漲電價這個應該是"},{"start":494.393,"end":495.314,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時5分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請經濟部次長？"],["主席：經濟部連次長。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有能源署游署長。"],["主席：署長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，今天整個媒體是聚焦在臺鹽公司在臺南以及嘉義，他們的綠能有涉及弊案。"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：就我來說，也是在選區嘛！其中有一場在義竹，我想要請教的是，這樣的一個弊案，發生了這樣的狀況，現在當然正在調查中，請問經濟部對於當時這個案件的發生，你們掌握的程度是怎樣？"],["連次長錦漳：我可不可以請副司長？"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，這個案子我們當時掌握到之後，我們有做一些調查，也有把相關資料直接主動移送。"],["蔡委員易餘：調查是在什麼時候？"],["劉副司長起孝：在112年的時候。"],["蔡委員易餘：112年。"],["劉副司長起孝：對，在去年的時候。"],["蔡委員易餘：去年你們開始調查。"],["劉副司長起孝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：那就臺鹽公司呢？臺鹽公司他們的內部調查。"],["劉副司長起孝：對，內部調查之後，他們也主動提送相關的資料。"],["蔡委員易餘：當時臺鹽公司董事長是？"],["劉副司長起孝：陳董事長，陳啟昱陳董事長。"],["蔡委員易餘：陳啟昱的時候，之後的調查是在吳容輝董事長的時代嘛？"],["劉副司長起孝：不是，那個時候吳董事長已經離開了。"],["蔡委員易餘：吳董事長離開。"],["劉副司長起孝：已經離開，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們有做內部調查？"],["劉副司長起孝：對，是。"],["蔡委員易餘：內部調查後，你們的調查資料有送給檢調嗎？"],["劉副司長起孝：對，臺鹽公司有把相關的資料送到檢調單位。"],["蔡委員易餘：送給檢調單位。"],["劉副司長起孝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這一件就是勿枉勿縱，該偵辦就應該要好好偵辦。"],["劉副司長起孝：是，我們會全力配合。"],["蔡委員易餘：我接下來要請教次長和署長，事實上相關的綠能產業，尤其是像我們這邊的漁電共生，我一直有在就教經濟部，如果這樣的綠能產業發生弊案的時候，它的後端處理是怎樣？這個弊案有可能是說，像這一件可能涉及到工程弊案，而我在意的是，漁電共生如果發生假養魚，沒有養魚，但是它一樣在發電，它的處罰機制到底是什麼？還是署長來說？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，如果是漁電共生，它當然是養殖為主，然後綠能加值，所以有關於漁業養殖這件事情，農業部及地方的漁業主管機關會去查核，如果查核到沒有養魚……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，會查核我知道，署長，我跟你說啦！如果真的是養殖為主，發電為輔，我在跑選區的時候應該會聽到很多人說我現在是替這些綠能公司來養魚，我現在的工作就是替他們養，可是我好少聽到，我幾乎沒有聽到，還是說他們都是請外部的人，請專家去養魚，這個專家都住在遙遠的地方，所以我在跑選區的時候都遇不到？我真的很少聽到，所以我要說的是，像這個是屬於工程弊案，工程弊案當然是由司法來認定，我是說今天說的、發生的案子，但是有其他的弊案是他作弊，也許還沒有到達刑事的強度，但是他作弊啊！很明顯，他的養魚，今天沒有農業單位啦！"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，你有沒有聽過「買魚金」這個名詞？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：你沒聽過。"],["連次長錦漳：因為我不是……"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是漁業的可能就知道，「買魚金」就是說他們會去開假發票，因為我們也知道農漁事實上是不用繳稅，他們開發票出來很難被查核，所以他就有「買魚金」，也就是所謂的假發票。他如果說好，在漁電共生的地方我就去生一張發票，我說裡面有養魚，結果養魚是假的，那這件事有沒有罰則？有沒有處罰？而且署長，我記得我在上一屆就跟你建議過了，處罰就很簡單啊！他的發電不要給他，他沒有養，當年度他的發電都不可以拿。"],["游署長振偉：這件事情後來有跟農業部協調過，就是如果沒有養殖事實，經過限期改善不改善的話，它會撤銷農業許可，我們就撤銷電業許可。"],["連次長錦漳：就取消。"],["蔡委員易餘：就直接撤銷電業許可？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：撤銷電業許可又有分為幾個層次啊！第一個，電費的部分呢？"],["游署長振偉：如果他的電業執照被撤銷，當然整個就沒有了。"],["蔡委員易餘：整個都沒收嘛！"],["游署長振偉：所以這個有一套管理機制，一定要有養殖事實。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有電業許可之後，是指把他的整個案場沒收？你們要說清楚，直接說清楚，那個案場就直接收歸國有還是怎樣？你們要講清楚這個罰則是怎樣，才會讓大家去警覺到說我們要在這個地方投入漁電共生，我們不要用這種投機式的。明明有說養殖才是重點，結果我看起來，沒有人把養殖當作重點，我真的沒有遇到有人說我要在漁電共生場好好來養殖，沒有啦！真的沒有啦！好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以次長，我覺得這件事我們要重視。"],["連次長錦漳：好，其實我們現在跟農業部也在討論，像委員講的這種事情，我們現在也跟農業部在討論是不是採用一些新的機制，避免這樣的情況發生，目前這個機制正在研擬中，如果有的話，應該要避免這樣的情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我相信你也知道，站在我的立場我是很鼓勵地方發展綠能，但是我們覺得一定要先把遊戲規則講清楚。"],["連次長錦漳：對，對，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣我們在推展綠能的時候，才不會被很多投機的，或者是用很多不法的手段來達到他們投入綠能的效果，既然我們強調養魚為主的漁電共生，一開始他的計畫就要好啊！"],["連次長錦漳：對，要把話講清楚。"],["蔡委員易餘：他到底要怎麼和地方的漁民來合作，還是說他們養魚計畫是怎樣，這些事情都還沒有講清楚，結果大家一窩蜂在投入，現在我看起來，我感覺起來，有很多真的沒有在養魚啦！好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個我覺得要注意一下。"],["連次長錦漳：我們已經在檢討改善了。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，因為這一次整個電價調漲，我想請教一下，就鋼鐵業來說，他們現在是不是在減半調漲的範圍？"],["連次長錦漳：應該是漲7%吧！我要查一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：鋼鐵是……"],["連次長錦漳：它有調漲到。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，它有調漲，我是說它是不是減半調漲？"],["連次長錦漳：我來查一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒關係，我直接說啦！事實上我是代為轉述一些業者的心聲，因為鋼鐵業這幾年遇到……"],["連次長錦漳：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：包括中國這邊的打壓，事實上這幾年來鋼鐵業的成長是不好的，他們的獲利是差的，所以這一次漲電價對於鋼鐵業是有相當的衝擊，但是他們現在應該沒有被認定在減半的行業別裡面，所以這部分經濟部可能再斟酌一下。調漲電價應該是為了反映台電的成本，但是對於個別產業別遇到衝擊的時候，我們是不是可以考慮得再細膩一些？這樣好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們看用什麼方式來協助他們。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["連次長錦漳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員精準質詢，次長先回座。","下一位質詢請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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sential drugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題"},{"start":205.11,"end":230.665,"text":"這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是還是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工製造更多的產量那第二個部分也跟我們報告我們也有詢問其他的廠商願不願意增加生產線就是說再加開一條產線那加開產線第一個那個投資要上億第二個要"},{"start":231.405,"end":260.318,"text":"超過一年以上的時間所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做那我們也積極輔導之前就是有這個不合規的廠商所以他目前已經可以供應就是大包裝的沖洗液那在注射液的部分因為他的相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為他終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農曆因為我們農曆年之前運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說"},{"start":261.378,"end":284.914,"text":"農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入Essential Drugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造"},{"start":290.558,"end":316.86,"text":"好 其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導 謝謝好 那次長請回謝謝"},{"start":320.441,"end":325.344,"text":"那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是"},{"start":345.595,"end":360.179,"text":"面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢"},{"start":366.343,"end":395.231,"text":"沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海軍我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海軍來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作"},{"start":395.851,"end":424.412,"text":"尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎"},{"start":432.834,"end":450.14,"text":"我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像好那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎"},{"start":453.492,"end":468.134,"text":"是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下OK 這個就是鎮海的火箭戰嘛所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢"},{"start":470.546,"end":489.464,"text":"除了平常我們海域執法外目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶襲擾所以不僅是海上執法我們還面對中共的脅迫另外平戰總辦之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列"},{"start":489.684,"end":507.271,"text":"所以我們的海巡暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎?我們平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換那海巡界上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嗎?第一種是南庭船隻的"},{"start":507.811,"end":522.49,"text":"的時候做一個警告的設計另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個活力的壓制但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用活力"},{"start":523.371,"end":544.562,"text":"去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是在海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過"},{"start":546.15,"end":573.825,"text":"目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊 但是你剛才說沒有用過啊 對不對對啊 那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊這台又說你剛才說沒有用過啊這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西"},{"start":575.726,"end":577.488,"text":"會不會有點太扯了呢?」"},{"start":595.888,"end":601.031,"text":"好 因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計畫3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼 要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點 因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴足勢縷了呢"},{"start":621.502,"end":645.323,"text":"委員我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果"},{"start":647.421,"end":662.95,"text":"好啦 反正我時間有限啦 那我就直接建議就是說 如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了 因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要 像剛才說的 如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦"},{"start":664.211,"end":668.512,"text":"本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題"},{"start":693.288,"end":697.069,"text":"再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳"},{"start":713.693,"end":732.598,"text":"個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢"},{"start":733.238,"end":752.843,"text":"第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報作業的一個28個單位那也不是以任何以電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人"},{"start":753.863,"end":776.401,"text":"那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區域隔的處理有一些具有機密人員身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊"},{"start":783.346,"end":810.731,"text":"因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了 可以嗎是 我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部聯政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子"},{"start":812.051,"end":812.775,"text":"OK好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時56分）請衛福部林次長。"],["主席：請衛福部林政次。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後，全球面臨了搶藥的風波，當然國軍在各項的操演、演練戰傷的救護，為了貼近戰場的突發狀況，強化全民的國防，所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的。行政院也為了全面盤點國內戰時緊急的物資，從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會，全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資，包括外傷常用的抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒、止吐的藥品，還有紗布及棉花，這是動用到第二預備金上億元，總共有1億3,812萬元，全部都是購買外傷用的戰略物資，是不是這樣呢？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，我們有事先準備了外傷的藥品跟衛材以確保足夠，因為臺灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭，事實上，我們臺灣都會面臨到複合式的災難，那在複合式災難的過程中，甚至像之前COVID-19的時候，我們如果沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品、衛材，一旦發生一些特殊狀況，我們會有缺乏，所以也跟委員報告，我們有準備大概一定程度的藥品跟衛材，包含外傷還有一些必要的藥品。"],["林委員憶君：好，當然這個動作也是引發關注，在當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候，看到這個新聞，我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了，所以本席想要請教次長，為何採購外傷用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列，而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面？是想要規避立法院的監督，還是真的只是單純清點戰備物資的例行性工作？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，就是說當然不敢規避，但是這個部分應該是在俄烏戰爭之後的編列，那當時的一些想法，第一個是要因應緊急的狀況，所以那個時候應該是基於這個原因編列，當然因為不在我任內，我沒有辦法回答。但是還有一個狀況就是說，因為這些是一個固定的編列，那固定編列的部分，我們會希望它不要占用到我們在這些重要醫療應該有的公務預算原來的支出，所以它是國家用比較中央型的立場去做一個準備，至於這個部分未來會不會常態編列，這可能要看上面的政策。"],["林委員憶君：好，在今年5月爆發輸液大廠永豐化學遭勒令關廠，導致醫院手術、洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水、葡萄糖等輸液都有缺貨的危機，連醫學中心都難以倖免。林次長，你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧？"],["林次長靜儀：是，是那個大包裝的生理食鹽水。"],["林委員憶君：那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水、滅菌液還有葡萄糖等輸液應該是戰備的物質，是非常重要的基本醫療用藥吧！"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。沒有錯，不過因為之前沒有把它列入所謂essential drugs的原因，第一，因為聯合國也沒有列進去。第二，當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商，但是真的沒有預估到其中市占太大的那個廠商後來出了問題。"],["林委員憶君：好，這些輸液不論是戰備還是平時的準備，都已經補足了嗎？還是目前仍是仰賴專業進口？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，報告委員，現在的狀況是，第一，我們也很感謝國內很多合格廠商之前幫我們加班趕工，製造更多的產量。第二個部分也跟委員報告，我們有詢問其他廠商願不願意增加生產線，就是再加開一條產線，但加開產線第一，投資要上億；第二，要超過一年以上時間，所以他們先幫我們用加班方式來做，而我們也積極輔導之前不合規的廠商，所以目前已經可以供應大包裝沖洗液。在注射液部分，因為它的相關規則更嚴格一點，如果順利的話，11月應該可以開始供應，不過因為它終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制，所以量的部分，大概比較確定是在農曆年後，因為農曆年之前的運輸等等會受到一點影響，所以我們現在是很確定在農曆年之後，應該可以穩定供貨，至於農曆年之前，我們還有一批專案進口，這樣大概就可以穩定。也跟委員報告，因為這件事情我們重新盤點，第一，生理食鹽水部分納入essential drugs，就是必要藥品。第二，我們儘量積極地讓國內廠商都能夠維持穩定供貨，不論是生理食鹽水或相關藥品，這也謝謝委員都支持我們儘量鼓勵國產藥廠從原料藥到生產藥品部分，都能夠在國內自己製造。"],["林委員憶君：好，其實衛福部必須從國防的外交戰略角度，定期檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性，還有全面找出供應斷鏈的危機問題，避免兩岸關係萬一生變，導致製藥原料突然的中斷。還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全存量部分，這點可能也要周全規劃，因為戰時的用藥還是非常重要。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員支持、指導，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：好，次長請回。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：有請國防部長及海巡署副署長。"],["主席：有請顧部長，還有海巡署副署長。"],["林委員憶君：再來想請教部長，現在我們面對中共海上灰色地帶的侵擾，就是從海軍、警，到海上民兵這種複合式的威脅，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員憶君：面對不同層級的威脅，其實我們這邊有派出相應單位，像是漁船或是對方的海警船，都是由海巡署去應對，如果是軍艦的話，大部分的狀況是派軍艦過去，但現在在某些情況下，我們的海巡艦是不是也要擔負監控、驅離中共軍艦的工作呢？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，就軍艦部分，我們還是協同應處，像這一次他們的軍艦結合海警，我們認為海警已經加入軍艦了，這是屬於一個軍……這個演習的……就是說這種操演的行動，我們本身是……"],["林委員憶君：好，未來這樣的複合式威脅，其實會變成常態，但這就需要海軍跟海巡……"],["顧部長立雄：我不敢說這會變成常態，但我們一定要跟海巡協同應處。"],["林委員憶君：是不是一定要共同合作？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員憶君：尤其像這次的聯合利劍軍演，中共海軍跟海警同時都出來了，那我們的海軍跟海巡建立共同圖像就很重要，但目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同圖像，剛好海巡署副署長也在，建議部長，你們是不是研議看看，現在海軍已經有現成的聯成系統，海巡的……"],["顧部長立雄：我們的……"],["林委員憶君：嘉義級和安平級其實也都有來……"],["顧部長立雄：那個……"],["林委員憶君：現在有共同圖像了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有共同……"],["林委員憶君：已經完成了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，是。"],["李院長世強：報告，我們協助海巡，一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像。"],["林委員憶君：所以都是有共同圖像？"],["李院長世強：一直以來都是。"],["林委員憶君：好。接下來要請教副署長，海巡署的海巡艦上有一個獨步全世界的裝備，全世界海岸警衛都沒有，只有我們有，副署長知道是什麼嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是不是可以請委員再明確指導一下？"],["林委員憶君：OK，就是鎮海火箭彈嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：喔！是。"],["林委員憶君：所有裝備都有它的任務需求，請教副署長，我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，我們除了平常的海域執法外，目前面對中共複合式脅迫，包括認知作戰、灰色地帶襲擾，所以不僅海上執法，我們還面對中共的脅迫。另外，平戰轉換部分，我們會立即無縫接軌，投入海軍作戰序列。"],["林委員憶君：所以海巡戰時其實是擔負著第二個海軍的任務，對不對？可以這樣講吧？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們平常有海域執法，戰時則依據國防法規定，進行平戰轉換。"],["林委員憶君：好，那海巡艦上的武裝不外乎兩種用途，第一種是攔停船隻時的警告射擊，另外一種是遇到武裝非法船隻時，能夠有一個火力壓制，但是火箭彈裝藥量大，飛行速度非常慢，簡單來說，其實是打不準的，所以我們用火力去覆蓋打擊面，但不能做為精準的射擊，也不能打船隻這種移動目標，看起來海巡艦上裝設鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點雞肋呢？我問你一個比較實際的問題好了，從第一座鎮海火箭彈上船裝到現在，我們有沒有開火過？"],["謝副署長慶欽：目前沒有，但是跟委員報告，我們的火箭彈有不同彈種，甚至有照明彈。"],["林委員憶君：對啊！但是你剛才說沒有用過，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["林委員憶君：對啊！戰時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打，根本就是拿海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑！你剛才說沒有用過，這種鎮海火箭彈裝在船上，平常不敢用，戰時又不管用，這種東西會不會有點太扯了呢？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們平常訓練事實上都有發射過飛彈，平常的平戰轉換都有在準備。另外，在執法的部分，我們會視實際個案需要使用不同的武器，海巡有槍械使用條例，我們會視個案狀況妥適運用。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為我看了你們114年的預算書，裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致命性裝備試辦計畫，三年要花8,600萬，做什麼呢？要採購低致命性及聲光彈，為什麼研發這兩種彈，不就是因為火箭彈威力大，難控制落點，怕打死人，副署長，你們這樣做是不是削足適履呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，我是中科院院長，我幫海巡署回答，因為他們是委給中科院研製的。主要是兩種彈，一種是音爆彈，一種是髒彈，所謂髒彈，就是會有油漆或染色劑，這兩種彈最主要是讓海巡在面對數量可能比較龐大的海上民兵時，遇到類似狀況，可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果。"],["林委員憶君：好啦！反正我時間有限，我就直接建議，其實這個案子也可以不用做，因為做了等於浪費納稅人的錢，如果只是像你們剛才說的，只是要製造砲陣的這些聲音，不如就去放煙火比較快啦！","本席還是具體建議副署長，可以從國防部現有的裝備中考慮採購，因為各軍種都有一定的數量，剛好顧部長也在這邊，看看是不是回去可以研議一下，然後也可以把成本壓低，給我們第一線的海巡人員真的可以用得上的東西，而不要再給他們平常不敢用、戰時又不管用的東西。","其他人請回座，我再請教部長一些問題。部長，前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去，是政風處那邊傳出去的，具體是誰做的，我想應該很清楚，但因為事件剛開始，完整的調查可能還要幾天，請問部長，現在有調查結果了嗎？還有這些傳出去的資料是政風室回傳的個人所得個資，還是剛才說的是一般名單？根據你們判斷，這是不小心的，還是刻意呢？又你們是怎樣判斷這些事情呢？這些資料有沒有流入民用網路，還是僅限在軍用網路裡呢？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個跟委員報告，沒有流入民用網路，是在內部的軍網裡，以電子發文方式函文給這些需要做申報作業的28個單位，這部分也不是以任何電子郵件傳送，而是以內部軍網的公文系統用電子發文方式函送給承辦人，案內名冊裡包括服務機關、職稱、姓名，還有申報年度，大概就這幾個項目，研判起來他應該要做區隔的處理，因為有一些人具有機敏人員身分。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為我時間也不夠，資料庫其實都是完整的，怎麼會單純只是洩漏一般人名的欄位？有那麼簡單嗎？部長，你確定這個事情真的是那麼簡單嗎？國防部要說實話，不要企圖想要掩蓋事實，因為我們的軍購已經被坑了，資料也被盜了，請國防部務必要嚴查，不要企圖用「國防布」來把這個事情蓋住。國防部未來應該要想，以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。我想整個行政調查，我們就由法務部廉政署，由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查，這樣的話，應該會比較客觀公允一點，相關的疏失，我們以後也會來究責。"],["林委員憶君：OK，好。謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},{"id":"155945","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155945","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d633a57440a6dbccf172a5f3e270b9db71ee99cfeeb60987bc225a559157b58088d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:01:37 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委員長還有這個廉政署的馮署長以及調查局的吳副局長麻煩"},{"start":46.868,"end":74.544,"text":"幾位長官剛剛看到部長很辛苦一直在Defense偵查不公開的事情其實你現在隨便到台灣的任何的城市從北到南、從南到北任何的一個角落去問張山理事隨便問我們偵查有沒有公開或者說偵查不公開"},{"start":76.451,"end":95.329,"text":"百分之一百的受訪者都會告訴你我們如果講偵查不公開叫做笑話一者從最近的看到柯文哲的事情一路的好像北檢跟這個週刊是聯合作戰了"},{"start":96.403,"end":120.451,"text":"穿同一條褲子的好像是同一個單位的部長難道你你不覺得就外面我我就告訴你外面現在看到的是什麼看到說週刊報個料然後呢媒體就開始大幅報導爭論節目就播然後那個就造成輿論上的一個類似裁判我原來就不相信了"},{"start":122.199,"end":134.628,"text":"我原來都不相信了後面那些奇怪怎麼他一播一登然後呢這個媒體再一登再一政論節目再一講欸過兩天都真的都真的"},{"start":136.035,"end":164.52,"text":"可見得這個洩密很嚴重啊來部長你講一下我認為媒體的報導有它的一個媒體報導是有它的天職它那個報導大部分就是捕風捉影嘛演繹嘛那媒體的一個娛樂的一個效果嘛那我相信我們都有嚴格要求我們自己所屬的單位都要嚴格落實偵查不公如果有查到有這些的違反偵查不公我們就是淹犯了那我想這個我們"},{"start":165.18,"end":190.459,"text":"可是你們調查結果都沒有啊都說沒有違反不公開都是沒有公開啊那因為媒體報導我們第一個線一定要是從那個媒體我們要請媒體來約談媒體嘛那麼現在媒體能夠你們辦了沒有你們辦了幾屆我們總共有15間這幾年了有15間有成立最近最近因為最近柯P的事情柯P的事情鬧得崩潰於耳哪一間今天有一間什麼時候辦的"},{"start":192.096,"end":193.197,"text":"所以柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過"},{"start":202.581,"end":205.824,"text":"現在有在分案在瞭解就是調查到底是...都沒有辦過!"},{"start":205.824,"end":210.208,"text":"抗爭案子都沒有辦過!現在有在偵辦啊!有在偵辦啊!有嗎?"},{"start":210.208,"end":225.002,"text":"你剛剛說一件花零的...那個是成立處分 因為這是處分已經調查後成立的違反偵查不公開的是有一件但是現在委員會關心的這些現在的這些媒體在報導的這些那個北捷有在分案在處..."},{"start":226.263,"end":231.587,"text":"我原來啊還對你們有抱一絲絲的覺得說哎呀我相信司法啦相信法務部啊結果看到前幾天有個新聞媒體講說要把舉子列為被告欸今天果然被列為被告啊吼吼有夠準啦媒體這麼厲害這如果不是你們洩露出去了怕死了不要再審他都講了前幾天講了要把舉子列為被告結果就已經列為被告了有夠準啦有夠準啦"},{"start":255.425,"end":272.456,"text":"什麼很厲害這個有些的話就是依照作為辦法要適度的一個公開因為違反是不能程序內容跟德行證的理由這個是不能公開的不公開的是程序內容所德行證都不可以公開結果現在公開的一塌糊塗啊"},{"start":274.898,"end":275.638,"text":"我提醒你啊"},{"start":300.829,"end":306.352,"text":"我提醒你啊檢察院糾正過警政署及調查局檢察院正式糾正警政署調查局洩密違反偵查不公開請教那個翁代理主委啊"},{"start":318.271,"end":343.581,"text":"委員好他們在媒體揭露有部分是真的有部分是假的這部分你們要不要去查一下這個東西報告委員這個我們都有受理民眾來申訴之後啊我們就按照那個有一個SOP就是我們會去把這個那個內容測錄帶調出來然後請那個相關的當事人呈訴意見那現在有11件已經在處理了"},{"start":345.762,"end":349.979,"text":"最近有沒有關於柯文哲的事情有沒有受理有有 起見起見"},{"start":352.048,"end":380.569,"text":"申訴有414件但是是不同的案情我們都有記錄而且我們就按照依法行政現在就是有沒有對外公佈我們還沒有做決定之前我們不會去公佈什麼時候要公佈我們有一定的程序就是依法受理之後啊進行必要的行政程序提到我們那個節目內容廣告諮詢委員會那有一定的時間"},{"start":381.81,"end":384.571,"text":"法務部的正部長還有翁大理主委你們兩個責任很重現在你們兩個由於消極的不作為或者故意的配合特別是法務部現在已經跟靜州幹事綁在一起了你們完全綁在一起了"},{"start":400.539,"end":415.813,"text":"這個沒有證據這個沒有什麼綁在一起這個我必須要澄清的故事大家的了解就很簡單這是一個誤解你們有檢察官怎麼樣怎麼樣直接進階把消息漏給靜州刊這個沒有證據這個沒有證據而且我相信我們檢察不會去丟出來對我們的辦公室有幫助對我們的辦公室絕對是沒有幫助我話沒有講你不要急嘛然後呢就透過這樣子媒體這樣子操作就輿論定罪"},{"start":428.029,"end":431.693,"text":"這個要辦人講證據我們絕對支持法務部嚴格去辦任何的貪污犯沒有人反對沒有人反對但是你們這樣赤裸裸的違反偵查不公開特別是跟特定的媒體這樣子合作操作沒有人認同沒有人可以接受我也沒辦法認同那個委員就是說"},{"start":449.273,"end":449.794,"text":"我們沒有這回事"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時1分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請法務部部長，以及NCC翁代理主委。"],["主席：有請部長、翁代理主委。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：還有廉政署馮署長，以及調查局吳副局長。"],["主席：麻煩各位。"],["賴委員士葆：剛剛看到部長很辛苦，一直在defense偵查不公開的事情。其實你現在到臺灣的任何城市，從北到南，從南到北，任何一個角落，隨便去問張三、李四─我們偵查有沒有公開？或者是偵查不公開？百分之一百的受訪者都會告訴你：我們如果講偵查不公開叫做笑話一則！從最近看到的柯文哲事情，一路好像是北檢跟這個週刊聯合作戰，穿同一條褲子的，好像是同一個單位的，部長難道不覺得？我告訴你外面現在看到了什麼？看到週刊爆個料，媒體就開始大幅報導，政論節目就播，然後就造成輿論上的一個類似裁判！我原來都不相信，後來就覺得很奇怪，怎麼媒體一登，政論節目再一講，過兩天都真的，可見得這個洩密很嚴重。部長請說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為媒體報導有他的天職，而他那個報導大部分都是捕風捉影，演繹，是媒體的一個娛樂效果嘛！我相信我們都有嚴格要求我們自己所屬的單位，都要嚴格落實偵查不公開，如果查到違反偵查不公開的話，我們就是嚴辦！我想這個我們就……"],["賴委員士葆：可是你們調查結果都說沒違反不公開原則，也沒有公開。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為媒體報導，我們第一條線一定是從媒體開始，要請來約談媒體，我們也希望媒體能夠……"],["賴委員士葆：你們辦了沒有？你們辦了幾件？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這幾年總共有15件成立……"],["賴委員士葆：最近、最近，因為柯P的事情鬧得風風雨雨。"],["鄭部長銘謙：今年有一件。"],["賴委員士葆：哪一件？什麼時候辦的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個月花蓮地檢署查……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候辦的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：今年第二季就是4月到6月這一季。"],["賴委員士葆：所以柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在我們在分案了解，調查到底……"],["賴委員士葆：都沒有辦過？柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在有在偵辦啊。"],["賴委員士葆：有在辦啊有嗎？你說的一件是花蓮的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個是成立處分，就是已經調查後成立─違反偵查不公開有一件。委員關心這些媒體現在報導的這些，北檢已在分案處理。"],["賴委員士葆：我原來對你們還抱一絲絲的信任─相信司法！相信法務部！結果看到前幾天，有新聞媒體說要把橘子列入被告，果然今天就列為被告，有夠準！媒體這麼厲害！這如果不是你們洩漏出去的，打死也沒人相信！他們前幾天就講了，要把橘子列為被告，結果就列為被告了，有夠準的！為什麼這麼厲害？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有些依照作業辦法，要有一個適度的公開，但程序、內容跟所得之心證是不能公開的……"],["賴委員士葆：不公開的是程序、內容、所得之心證，都不可以公開……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個都不能公開。"],["賴委員士葆：結果現在公開得一塌糊塗啊！你可以想啊，什麼幾大金主，裡面一堆的帳，這個怎麼都是你們在洩漏的一塌糊塗啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不能夠說是我們洩漏，如果真有這回事，也不能說是我們洩漏，因為可以接觸到這些資訊的人，實在是太多了。委員有細看作業辦法第五條、第六條，你就可以很清楚，這裡面包括偵查系統的、調查的，包括司法法院，甚至律師都有接觸……"],["賴委員士葆：我提醒你，監察院糾正過警政署及調查局，監察院正式糾正過警政署、調查局洩密，違反偵查不公開。我想請教翁代理主委。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：他們在媒體揭露的，有部分是真的，有部分是假的，你們要不要去查一下這個東西？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這個我們委員都有受理，民眾來申訴之後，我們會按照SOP，去把那個內容的側錄帶調出來，然後請相關的當事人陳述意見。現在有11件已經在處理了。"],["賴委員士葆：最近關於柯文哲的事情有沒有受理？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：有。"],["賴委員士葆：有幾件？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：申訴有414件，是不同的案情，我們都有紀錄，我們就依法行政，現在就是……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有對外公布？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：還沒有做決定之前，我們不會公布。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候公布？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：我們有一定的程序，就是依法受理之後，進行必要的行政程序，提到我們的節目內容廣告諮詢委員會，它有一定的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：法務部鄭部長還有翁代理主委，你們兩個責任很重啊，由於你們兩個消極的不作為或者故意的配合，特別是法務部，現在已經跟鏡週刊綁在一起啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我要澄清……"],["賴委員士葆：你們完全綁在一起啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有跟鏡週刊綁在一起啦，沒有什麼綁在一起的，這個我必須要澄清！"],["賴委員士葆：大家對故事的了解就很簡單……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個誤解。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有檢察官怎麼樣直接、間接把消息漏給鏡週刊……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有證據，這個沒有證據，而且我相信我們檢察官不會去這樣做……"],["賴委員士葆：由鏡週刊丟出來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對我們辦案也沒有幫助，對我們辦案絕對是沒有幫助。"],["賴委員士葆：我的話還沒有講完，你不要急嘛！然後就透過媒體這樣子操作，就輿論定罪！要辦人講證據，我們絕對支持法務部嚴格去辦任何的貪污犯，沒有人反對；但是你們這樣赤裸裸的違反偵查不公開原則，特別是跟特定的媒體這樣子合作、操作，沒有人能認同，沒有人可以接受！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我也沒辦法認同委員直接認定，就是我們檢調廉政署赤裸裸的去跟媒體勾結洩密，我們不承認有這件事情……"],["賴委員士葆：勾結是你說的，我沒說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有這回事。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},{"id":"155944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d6391887c48038bffe0d7b602dab1c650f9e99cfeeb60987bc251d9cde2851d34635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:56:10 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乾坤大奴也就是說我們面對碳費挑戰比較大的這些企業我們外移到比較有競爭力的這個國家什麼叫有競爭力有碳費競爭力的國家啦並透過以小代大然後符合他的部長的境外關內的政策這個部分是不是有"},{"start":357.434,"end":381.133,"text":"因為他如果是移到剛才委員講的他碳費比較有利的地方他如果今天要做出口他不會是只有做到那個他如果要做出口一小代大就整個三峽要刷那裡然後又進外關內高碳排的這些產業要挪到國外碳費比較低的地方國家去"},{"start":381.954,"end":388.065,"text":"那就符合碳洩漏啦,那市長你的想法呢?對經濟部的立場?這經濟部的立場喔?環境部的立場如何?"},{"start":392.554,"end":417.934,"text":"這個跟委員報告是說其實像這個所謂我們現在有高碳洩漏風險的產業鋼鐵石化它要外移的機率可能沒有那麼高因為整個的這個設廠還有整個的這個生產成本的考慮碳費應該只是其中一項所以我相信這個都是一些我們可是乾坤大農業就是要把這些高碳牌的這個產業移到國外去啊不是嗎那個市長"},{"start":419.916,"end":444.016,"text":"我想這個也是我們這個產業會希望通過台版的CBAM。那你們兩個部位,環境部跟經濟部在立場上面是基本上對立的喔?我認為啊,你們不會贊成這個經濟部的這個錢坤大挪移計畫?你們會贊成嗎?市長?沒有,我們是希望就是競速研擬台版的CBAM,讓這個高碳洩漏風險不要出去啦,不要覺得說要移動。"},{"start":445.016,"end":465.368,"text":"而且其實東南亞很多國家未來要實施探架。海版CBAM是你們在制定嗎?海版CBAM我們跟經濟部、財政部一直要跨部會討論。那多久會出來?明年可能會先從要看怎麼申報開始。就像歐盟現在在申報。那海版CBAM計畫就沒有所謂的乾坤大奴役的啊?就不需要乾坤大奴役不是嗎?"},{"start":466.791,"end":492.194,"text":"這個是要不要把產業帶到那個比較有利的一個海外去?我想請問一下,乾坤大農業真是有這個計畫嗎?是有這個計畫還是構想?有這個計畫還是沒有?在研歷中?在研歷中?拒絕做還不知道?還在討論所以已經公布這個推動乾坤大農業計畫"},{"start":493.831,"end":494.031,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時56分）謝謝主席，有請兩位次長。"],["主席：請兩位次長。"],["邱委員志偉：連次長，我們先看這份資料，路透社一份由9位分析師做的報告顯示，2027他們對於平均碳價的預測遠高於現在，2027大概就是兩年之後會到111歐元，大概將近臺幣4,000塊，目前每噸預估大概是63歐元左右，大概是臺幣2,100。如果按照這個趨勢，所有的產品要輸入歐盟，即便我們有課碳費，但是你還是要跟CBAM接軌，對不對？接軌，你的價差不能太大，否則它不會發給你憑證，所以這部分你們要了解這個趨勢，碳費對企業造成的壓力，你們看中鋼就好了，中鋼在高雄，對不對？中鋼的排放量將近2,000萬噸，如果你現在用300塊的基準來看，如果從2025開徵，它的碳費一年要58億，鋼鐵業景氣又不好，中鋼的年度稅後淨利還不到17億，這又相當於它淨利的3倍，超過3倍，這個碳費制度對高碳排的產業會造成嚴重的財務衝擊，這是上游。那中下游怎麼辦？它一定會轉嫁成本嘛，上游大型的企業可以透過成本增加來轉嫁給中下游的企業，中下游的企業又是中小型居多，它那個成本的轉嫁非常不容易，比如說下面就是工具機、扣件、螺絲，中小型企業要怎麼轉嫁？就變成它必須要提高產品價格，它的競爭力就不足了，所以這部分我覺得經濟部應該要有一個完整評估，在碳費徵收之後對各個產業的相關財務衝擊，我覺得這部分你們沒有做。"],["連次長錦漳：有。"],["邱委員志偉：次長，你們有做嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，這部分我們有做很詳細的分析，像剛才委員講的鋼鐵業本身，所以最後談到才會有優惠費率嘛，如果優惠費率下來，其實它的衝擊就沒有像之前的那麼大，等於是2.8%。當然，大的一定是會轉嫁給小的，所以我們會做兩層，一個是大的這邊，像剛才講的自主減量計畫我們一定會請它提，提了之後，我們會協助它達成那個減量目標，等於衝擊就降低了，它轉下去的那個幅度就不會那麼大。"],["邱委員志偉：衝擊性大跟小而已嘛。"],["連次長錦漳：對，一定會有。"],["邱委員志偉：大、中、小啦！"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["邱委員志偉：如果各種狀況都會造成中小型企業的成本提高，成本提高的部分你們有沒有相關的差異化補貼方案？"],["連次長錦漳：我們沒有所謂的差異化，是針對下游的這些中小企業，我們有專案，專案剛才我有特別提到，像南部這些因為有雙重的壓力，像CBAM或是國內這樣的……"],["邱委員志偉：是啊。"],["連次長錦漳：所以針對一些比較特殊型的產業，我們有特別去做，其他的就是比較一般性的專案做輔導。"],["邱委員志偉：這個不只影響到上游、中下游，整個產業供應鏈都會帶動連帶漲價，連動漲價這個部分會造成某種程度的通膨效應，所有東西都會漲價耶！"],["連次長錦漳：供應鏈我們會做，供應鏈我們真的會做。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這是一個很嚴肅的問題。","施次長，未來實施CBAM，我們很多產品比方說金屬扣件，都是銷歐洲比較多，如果我們的碳費跟他們的CBAM差距太大，我們怎麼辦？"],["施次長文真：其實歐盟要實施CBAM的目的就是要去平衡它自己境內生產者的總量管制和交易成本，他們從2005年開始已經實施很久了，他們的成本，包括他們的發電業全部都是要透過拍賣來取得，所以他們面臨的碳價會希望進口商也要承擔，就跟我們現在國內產業呼籲是一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：我們會面對嘛？"],["施次長文真：對，如果這個差額很大我們要補，但是一開始因為歐盟的製造業也像我們一樣有免費配額，所以它會先扣掉免費配額的程度，然後扣掉出口國的碳價。"],["邱委員志偉：所以可能初期對我們中小型的這些，譬如說扣件，影響不大？"],["施次長文真：可能初期，因為它那個免費配額的比例一開始先降二點幾，然後1、2%，所以可能初期前3、4年影響還不會那麼高。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，經濟部有一個乾坤大挪移計畫，這個是有關於碳洩漏，什麼叫碳洩漏？次長。"],["連次長錦漳：我這樣講，不管產業是不是外移，它現在已經是在境內了，我們在臺灣的，一定要協助它去做減碳。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，乾坤大挪移是說我們面對碳費挑戰比較大的這些企業，要外移到比較有競爭力的國家，什麼叫有競爭力？有碳費競爭力的國家啦！並透過以大帶小，然後符合部長的境外關內政策，這個部分是否符合碳洩漏？"],["連次長錦漳：企業如果移到剛才委員講的，對碳費比較有利的地方，但是它如果要做出口，同樣會面臨這樣的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：以大帶小就是整個產業要移到那裡，然後又境外關內耶！就是說高碳排的這些產業要挪到國外碳費比較低的國家去，那就符合碳洩漏啦！施次長，你的想法呢？對經濟部的立場，這是經濟部的立場哦！環境部的立場如何？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，其實我們現在有高碳洩漏風險的產業，像鋼鐵、石化，它要外移的機率可能沒有那麼高啦！因為整個設廠還有生產成本的考慮，碳費應該只是其中一項，所以我相信這個都是一些……"],["邱委員志偉：可是乾坤大挪移就是要把這些高碳排的產業移到國外去啊！不是嗎？次長。"],["施次長文真：我想產業會希望透過臺版的CBAM……"],["邱委員志偉：你們兩個部會，環境部跟經濟部的立場基本上是對立的哦！我認為你們不會贊成經濟部的乾坤大挪移計畫，你們會贊成嗎？施次長。"],["施次長文真：沒有，我們是希望儘速研擬臺版的CBAM，讓高碳洩漏風險不要出去啦！不要覺得說要移，而且東南亞很多國家未來也要實施碳價。"],["邱委員志偉：臺版的CBAM是你們在制定，對不對？"],["施次長文真：臺版的CBAM，我們和經濟部、財政部一起跨部會討論。"],["邱委員志偉：多久會出來？"],["施次長文真：明年可能會先從怎麼申報開始，就像歐盟現在在申報。"],["邱委員志偉：有了臺版CBAM計畫，就沒有所謂的乾坤大挪移了，就不需要乾坤大挪移了，不是嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：要不要把產業帶到比較有利的海外去，這個要整個再評估。"],["邱委員志偉：我想請教次長，乾坤大挪移，真的是有這個計畫嗎？是有這個計畫，還是構想？有沒有這個計畫？"],["連次長錦漳：在研議中。"],["邱委員志偉：在研議中，具體的做法還不知道？"],["連次長錦漳：還在討論。"],["邱委員志偉：已經公布推動乾坤大挪移計畫耶！這個你們也要問問環境部的立場，環境部可能不會同意。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["邱委員志偉：因為我時間到了，好，謝謝。"],["施次長文真：謝謝委員。"],["連次長錦漳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。"],["主席（邱委員志偉）：下一位質詢請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估，及政府協助企\n業因應之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長就\n「我國碳邊境調整機制（CBAM）推動規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138702_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}